Sitting of 25 July 1991

Preamble
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PETITIONS

    Excise Duly (Motor Cycles)
    9.34 am
    Ms. Marjorie Mowlam: I should like to present a petition on behalf of some of my constituents who consider that the rise in vehicle excise duty on motor cycles is unjust.
    To lie upon the Table.

    Baltic States
    9.35 am
    Mrs. Margaret Ewing: I have been afforded the honour by the Lithuanian Association in Great Britain to present a petition on its behalf and on behalf of the people of the oppressed Baltic states asking that the House take account of their plight. The petition reads:
    The humble petition of people residing in the United Kingdom, sheweth Mikhail Gorbachev is coming to the G7 conference at his own insistence and will beg for economic aid. The G7 countries should not give unconditional assistance to this man who presides over a government which continues to deny the basic right of self-determination to millions of oppressed people.
    Wherefore your petitioners pray that your honourable House takes steps to urge the British Government that no aid, other than humanitarian, should be given to the Soviet Union until those countries forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Empire are allowed unconditionally to decide their own destiny.
    To lie upon the Table.

Vietnamese Boat People
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Sackville.]
9.36 am
Sir Peter Blaker: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this important topic. Our debate will be followed with close attention by the people of Hong Kong to whom this matter is of great concern. I pay tribute to the members of the Executive and Legislative Councils of Hong Kong and to the Hong Kong Commissioner and his staff who have been extremely helpful to many right hon. and hon. Members in keeping them informed on this and on other subjects.
We refer to those who are the subject of this debate as boat people because originally in the 1970s they arrived by boat. They came mostly from South Vietnam, many of them were of Chinese race and, since South Vietnam had recently been defeated in war by North Vietnam, it was natural for them to cross the South China sea rather than travel via Vietnam on the land route.
We remember the harrowing scenes on our television screens of small unseaworthy boats, and the stories of attacks by sharks and pirates and the sinking of boats in storms. Such stories naturally and rightly evoked the sympathy of the world for the Vietnamese boat people. Since then, the situation has changed, and those who have been coming to Hong Kong in recent years have tended to come by land, many of them travelling all the way round almost as far as Hong Kong along the south China coast and then picking up a boat at the Pearl river. They arrive in Hong Kong as if they were boat people who had travelled all the way from Vietnam, which in most instances in recent years has not been the case. Nevertheless, because of our memory of the harrowing scenes of the 1970s, the boat people, as we continue to call them, still attract a great deal of sympathy and feeling among many people in many parts of the world.
The numbers of such people have varied from time to time. The largest number to arrive in one year was 66,000, and they came in the first seven months of 1979. In 1988, some 18,500 arrived, and in 1989 the figure was 34,500. I am speaking of those who came to Hong Kong. More than 14,000 have arrived this year. A few weeks ago, as many as 180 a day were arriving in Hong Kong. I am glad to say that that figure has now dropped, although it is still running at 56 a day—a substantial number. Ever since the 1970s, every year, significant numbers have arrived.
All this time, Hong Kong has, to its credit, followed the policy of first asylum. No Vietnamese migrant, whether arriving by boat direct from south Vietnam or from some other place, has been turned away. Partly because of that splendid record, 97 per cent. of the people who leave Vietnam clandestinely come to Hong Kong. We have to remember that Hong Kong is a crowded place. There are 5·8 million people living in an area only twice the size of the Isle of Wight. That is a density of 5,385 people per square kilometre, compared to our density of 230. Therefore, the refugees are even more of a burden for Hong Kong than they would be for a less populated country.
Up to about 1988, all people leaving Vietnam in these circumstances were treated by the world as refugees. However, shortly before 1988, the practice of some of the resettlement countries began to change, and they began to

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differentiate between those who were genuine refugees—those who came in the 1970s and early 1980s probably were refugees escaping from persecution or the fear of it—and those who were leaving for economic reasons.
As a result, resettlement from Hong Kong dropped off dramatically. In 1980, 37,000 were resettled from Hong Kong to other recipient countries, but in 1987 only just over 2,000. This change obliged Hong Kong also to change. Therefore, in June 1988, it adopted a policy of screening the Vietnamese arrivals. The screening is monitored by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and its aim is to differentiate between those who are genuine refugees, who are placed in open camps, and those who are economic migrants, who are put into detention centres. Screening has shown that over 80 per cent. of those who arrive are economic migrants.
All this imposes a heavy burden on Hong Kong. As of 22 July—three days ago—there were 5,736 refugees in Hong Kong. Those who had been screened out as non-refugees numbered 18,194 and those awaiting screening and the results of screening numbered 37,770—a total of 61,700 people. If the same numbers were applied to the United Kingdom, given the difference in our population, 600,000 people would be here either as refugees or as people in detention. That would be regarded by the people of this country with horror. Our whole population would say, "This is intolerable. Something has to be done about it." Not surprisingly, that is the attitude of the people of Hong Kong who, for so many years, have put up with this burden. The cost has been substantial. Most of it has been borne by Hong Kong, although some has been borne by the United Kingdom.
In 1989, as a result of this change of policy and the introduction of screening, a conference of 75 countries was held in Geneva. It evolved a comprehensive programme of action, which has four parts: first, continuation of the policy of first asylum; secondly, the practice of screening; thirdly, resettlement in other countries for those who are genuine refugees; and, fourthly, repatriation to their countries of origin for those who are non-refugees. The first three parts of the programme have been successful; the fourth has not. Since March 1989, only 7,700 Vietnamese have voluntarily returned to Vietnam from Hong Kong. In that time, 53,400 have arrived and 5,100 have been born in the camps, so the situation has been getting worse.
It is universally accepted that people who move from one country to another for economic reasons should be repatriated to their country of origin. It happens everywhere else except in this case. It happens in this country. If somebody arrives from south Asia or the Caribbean without permission, not as a refugee and not seeking asylum but for economic reasons, that person is turned back. Hong Kong turned back 30,000 Chinese illegal immigrants last year. This is one of the sore points for the people in Hong Kong. Their own compatriots—cousins, uncles, perhaps even brothers—are sent back across the border, whereas the Vietnamese are accepted. There is no particular friendship between the Chinese and Vietnamese races.
The position of the United States is wholly illogical. It agreed to the comprehensive programme of action, as did Vietnam, but it is impeding putting that programme into
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practice. At the same time, it turns back, without any ceremony, boat people from Haiti, and the regime in Haiti is at least as oppressive as that in Vietnam. It turns back people from Mexico if they arrive at the border, and British people arriving at United States airports if they do not have permission to enter. The United States, like other countries, has recently been sending back Kurds from Turkey to Iraq, whether they like it or not. This is the universal practice for illegal immigrants. Therefore it is essential that the same policy should be applied in the case of Vietnamese boat people who are screened out as not being genuine refugees.
About a year ago, when I was in Hong Kong, I went to a detention camp, as many hon. Members have done. The camps are not very pleasant places to visit, because the overcrowding is so intense. Through the interpreter I asked a young, fit Vietnamese who had arrived three weeks before where he had come from and what he expected to happen to him. His reply was, "You in the west are so weak, I expect to end up in California." We must break that assumption, because as long as it applies these people will continue to arrive in Hong Kong. We must make it clear beyond doubt in Vietnam that non-refugees will ultimately be returned to Vietnam.
The fourth point of the policy evolved in Geneva in 1989 is not being put into force largely because of opposition from the United States. Because the United States is opposed to compulsory repatriation, so is Vietnam, because it is seeking favour and aid from the United States now that it has lost aid from Soviet Union. I recently discussed this question with the State Department in Washington, when I went over there with a small all-party group. We had a thorough discussion of the whole subject. We pointed out this illogicality, and the people in the State Department treated us courteously but did not have a satisfactory answer.
It is clear that the United States Administration still feel that it is inconceivable that people should be returned to Vietnam, a country that, in the folk memory of the United States, is a terrible place to be, whatever the changes in recent times, and whatever the improvements in life there. I asked the State Department officials what would be necessary before the United States would formalise its relations with Vietnam, and they said that there were two conditions. The first was that there must be a solution to the problem of prisoners of war and those missing in action. I fully understand the trauma that that still causes to people in the United States, and especially to the relatives of those who are missing.
The second condition was that there should be a solution to the problem of Cambodia. I said to the State Department officials, "Are you really saying that there must be a solution to the problem of Cambodia as a precondition? Surely the solution to the problem in Cambodia lies not with Vietnam alone but principally with the four parties in Cambodia. It lies with the Chinese and with other countries. Why are you saying that there has to be a solution to the problem of Cambodia when it is not within the power of Vietnam to produce such a solution?" We left it at that. I hope that the United States, a country for which I have great admiration and respect, will realise that the time has come to move on towards normalisation of its relations with Vietnam.
A possible way forward—and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will deal with it when he replies—is the new concept of a holding centre in Vietnam to which

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non-refugees could be returned. The concept has been discussed by the Government with the Vietnamese, and it seems to me to hold great promise. Such a centre would be run by an international and impartial body and monitored by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.
There is resentment in Hong Kong at the burden that the territory has had to carry for such a long time. Apart from the financial burden, there are pressures on accommodation and manpower and the dangers to which Hong Kong officials are exposed in the camps. There is resentment because of the criticism that Hong Kong receives from the world in spite of its humanitarian approach; for example, criticism that the screening process is not operated especially well, and that there is not sufficiently good accommodation for those who are in detention camps.
I hope that the people of Hong Kong will realise from this debate that there is a great deal of support for Hong Kong in the extremely difficult situation that it faces. The British-Hong Kong parliamentary group is one of the largest of its kind. We share the feelings of the people of Hong Kong, and we support the efforts that Her Majesty's Government are making. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will give us some grounds for hope when he replies.
9.53 am
Sir Richard Luce: My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Sir P. Blaker) has done the House and the people of Hong Kong a great service by raising the issue of immigration before we go into the summer recess. It is a timely moment to discuss it. The problem of the Vietnamese migrants, or boat people, is imposing an intolerable strain and burden upon the people of Hong Kong at a time when they are struggling, with all the support that we can give, to maintain their way of life and to make a success of the 1984 general declaration.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South has set out succinctly and clearly the figures and the scale of the problem. He told the house that there are about 61,000 Vietnamese living in Hong Kong, of whom only about 6,000 are classified as refugees. As he said, 61,000 is a considerable number. When I had ministerial responsibilities for Hong Kong—I left that job in 1985—I think that I am right in saying that there were 13,000 Vietnamese in. Hong Kong. That was regarded then as a considerable strain upon the community and the territory. The strain is now much greater. I went to Hong Kong last February and saw one or two camps. I saw for myself the heavy burden and strain that is imposed upon Hong Kong. More recently, as my right hon. Friend said, a delegation of Legislative Council members visited Britain, led by Mrs. Rita Fan. They expressed their anxieties clearly.
There are other exacerbating problems in Hong. Kong. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South referred to population density and to the fact that illegal Chinese immigrants are returned promptly to China. It is worth noting that since 1975, when the problem of immigrants first began, the Hong Kong Government have spent no less than £220 million of taxpayers' money. It is worth noting also that Hong Kong appears to be the only country in the far east that observes the first-asylum obligation. None of the other countries in the region
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appears to be doing so. At the same time, the world is less willing to resettle refugees, perhaps partly because of the economic problems.
All the problems being faced by Hong Kong must be set against the background of the major preoccupation of the people of Hong Kong. No territory in the far east could have shown more humanity and practical help in assisting the Vietnamese. Hong Kong's humanity has been demonstrated in other respects: for example, there was its help with the Red Cross during the Gulf war. More striking and more recently, no less than £30 million has been made available to help to alleviate the problems of the Chinese following their recent flood. That information came to me during this week. The money came mainly from the private sector of Hong Kong. Only a small proportion came from the Hong Kong Government. If ever there has been a demonstration of Hong Kong's humanity for its neighbours, that is it.
The Legislative Council elections are coming up soon, the pressures are increasing, and it is vital to focus on making a success of the 1984 joint declaration. This can serve only as an intolerable extra burden for the people of Hong Kong. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South is right to refer to ways in which action can be taken, and whch must be taken urgently. He referred to the comprehensive plan of action and the screening process, which used to cause me great concern. There was much anxiety about the thoroughness of the process. Having watched the process myself—it is now under the supervision and guidance of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees—I can say that the procedures are very thorough. I do not think that the process could be better implemented. There are appeal procedures. I feel that it is the best that we can do to identify those who are genuine refugees and those who are not.
The problem of refugees throughout the world is a growing and serious one. The only real way of tackling it is through the countries of origin. Those countries must be helped to find solutions and ways of attracting refugees and migrants back to their countries, or to discourage them from leaving in the first place.
In that context, I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South that the concept of an international holding centre offers an ideal way of arriving at a solution. Clearly the centre would have to be under international supervision and extremely carefully devised. If such a centre can work in Vietnam, it might be a concept that could be implemented in other parts of the world. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will give an assurance that we are concentrating in a major way on trying to achieve this objective.
Another important factor is regional progress. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South was right to say that Cambodia on its own must not be a precondition for the United States helping to solve the problem that faces Hong Kong. The fact that there is progress in Cambodia should help to create a better atmosphere in that part of the world. The fact that the Vietnamese and Chinese are beginning to establish closer links is a good sign. The western world should be doing everything possible to encourage Vietnam to move towards some form of plural democracy and to generate growth in their economy. That must be done with the encouragement of Vietnam's neighbours in the far east and with western help and assistance.
Mr. Jim Lester (Broxstowe): I agree with everything that has been said so far, but does my right hon. Friend accept that the solutions to the problems of the Vietnamese economy are not furthered by the fact that the Americans have imposed a trade embargo, which means that the economy cannot fulfil its function even if the possible solutions to which he has referred were implemented? If we are to solve the economic problems that are forcing people to leave Vietnam, we should encourage the United States to normalise relations and, possibly, not to stop others, such as the International Monetary Fund and the World bank, from assisting and investing in Vietnam.
Sir Richard Luce: My hon. Friend has put his finger on it. It is important to give every encouragement to Vietnam to make progress. I agree with my hon. Friend that it is extremely important that the United States should do what it can to remove trade restrictions and to help with economic development in Vietnam.
The United States has imposed involuntary returns. Of course, it is right to have a hang-up, to put it bluntly, about its experiences in Vietnam in the 1960s, but times have changed and conditions and circumstances are quite different. The United States has an obligation to assist the British Government and the people of Hong Kong to find a solution to the problem. Our Government's first duty is to Hong Kong and its people, and we look to them to take a positive lead, but with the help of the United States. That is the least that we can do for the people of Hong Kong.
10 am
Sir Philip Goodhart: I hope that we can persuade the Americans to lift their restrictions on trade with Vietnam, even though the process of liberalisation in Vietnam is proceeding more slowly than we had hoped. Even if that liberalisation comes, many Vietnamese will be in camps in Hong Kong for the foreseeable future, and I am especially concerned about the children. I hope that the open camp system, such as Taia Chau, can be extended so that families with children are not locked behind barbed wire as they are at High island and Whitehead detention centres—where children spend years without seeing a tree or a blade of grass.
The open detention camps, which are run by Hong Kong Refugee Housing Ltd. are far superior. I hope that we can extend the amount of education provided in the camps, and especially the teaching of English. The refugees will be settled in English-speaking countries, and it would help their resettlement if they could learn English while they were in the camps. All that will cost money. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, unlike other United Nations agencies, is short of cash rather than of competence. We are giving £20 million this year, which is not a bad contribution. It is the sixth largest in the world, and twice as much as France is giving. I hope that the sum will be increased. I am glad that we are giving an additional £6 million to UNHCR in Hong Kong, but I hope that we can lead an international drive to extend the amount of money being given to it.
10.2 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd): We are all grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) for raising such an
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important issue. The debate provides an opportunity for our right hon. and hon. Friends to show the great concern in Parliament about the matter, and it gives me, as Minister, the opportunity to give an update to the people of Hong Kong on the Government's thinking and on our actions to deal with this major problem.
First, I wish to pay tribute to the Hong Kong authorities which, despite preoccupations with their own future and during a time of considerable uncertainty, have continued to provide a safe haven for more than 175,000 Vietnamese who have arrived in the territory since 1975. No Vietnamese has ever been turned away, and Hong Kong's humanitarian record is one of which it can be justly proud.
My right hon. and hon. Friends have referred to the deterioration in the position in Hong Kong, and I do not propose to reiterate the figures. However, I can well understand the frustration in Hong Kong at having to continue to bear that burden, and the desire that immediate steps and measures should be taken to try to stem the flow of Vietnamese migrants to the territory. Finding a durable solution to the problem is a top priority. Since 1989, we have contributed £35 million, £18·5 millon direct to Hong Kong, in support of international efforts to devise a durable solution to the problem. In 1991, we have pledged a further £6 million to UNHCR's appeal for funds, specifically for its work in Hong Kong.
My hon. Friends have said that economic progress is desirable, especially in Vietnam, and we recognise that to tackle the root causes of the exodus it is clearly desirable that Vietnam should become a better and more prosperous place. We have welcomed the Vietnamese Government's acknowledgement of their responsibilities towards their own citizens in Hong Kong and we shall consider aid to Vietnam, including a bilateral aid programme in that context. We also contribute to non-governmental organisation activity in areas of Vietnam from which the asylum seekers in Hong Kong originate.
In February this year, at our instigation, the European Commission inaugurated a six-month, £7 million pilot programme of reintegration assistance in areas of Vietnam from which those people originate. If successful, that will be followed by a two-and-a-half-year, £84 million programme financed by the international donor community. I need hardly add that that programme will be stillborn if non-refugees do not return to Vietnam.
The comprehensive plan of action agreed at the second conference on Indo-Chinese refugees in June 1989, provides for the maintenance of first asylum, the screening of new arrivals to determine refugee status, the return of those found to be refugees, and the repatriation of those found not to be refugees to their country of origin. Screening in Hong Kong has been developed with the co-operation of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. The criterion used is that contained in the 1951 United Nations convention and the 1967 protocol relating to the status of refugees. That states that a person is a refugee if he has a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion and who, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of his country of nationality.
Improvements in the screening procedure in Hong Kong have been introduced where necessary, and I am confident that it is both fair and achieves the main objectives of ensuring that no one facing repatriation need

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fear persecution. Since 1975, more than 13,000 Vietnamese refugees have been resettled in the United Kingdom. At the second international conference on Indochinese refugees, we also undertook to resettle a further 2,000 refugees from Hong Kong within three years.
We have been active in efforts to persuade non-refugees now in Hong Kong to volunteer for repatriation to Vietnam. At the fourth meeting of the steering committee of the international conference on Indochinese refugees in April this year, Vietnam reaffirmed its undertaking that no one returned to Vietnam would be persecuted and that UNHCR would have unhindered access to those who returned. More than 9,000 asylum seekers have already taken advantage of the voluntary repatriation programme, 7,800 from Hong Kong. UNHCR reported in April that there was no evidence to suggest any of them have been maltreated.
The British embassy in Hanoi also makes regular visits to areas of Vietnam to which significant numbers of migrants have returned from Hong Kong. Since December 1989, 11 such visits have been made. Many of the 51 sent back on 12 December 1989 have been contacted more than once. Again, no evidence of maltreatment has been discovered.
However, despite our efforts, it is clear that voluntary repatriation alone will not work. We must seek other ways to repatriate those non-refugees who do not opt to return to Vietnam. Those people are no different from other illegal immigrants except that, because of the emotive background, their deportation is a matter of contention. It is not fair on the people of Hong Kong to expect them to continue to provide a temporary place of asylum at great cost without any expectation of an early solution. Nor is it fair to the Vietnamese themselves to hold out false hopes of resettlement, as some misguided people have done. I note the comments that my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South made as a result of an interview that he had with one of those people. There is absolutely no prospect that the international community will change its mind and resettle Vietnamese who are not refugees.
We are also concerned about the plight of unaccompanied minors, some of whom have been sent abroad by their parents in Vietnam in the hope that, if the child secures refugee status, the parents will then be able to
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follow. We continue to urge UNHCR to expedite its procedures to determine the status of those children so that they may be resettled or returned to their parents as soon as possible.
We are, therefore, taking the lead in international efforts to find ways to repatriate non-refugees. But it is essential that any solution that we propose can be implemented. In particular, we need to take account of Vietnam's sensitivity to international and, particularly, United States reactions to any measures which might be taken.
The fourth meeting of the international conference on Indochinese refugees steering committee in Geneva on 30 April and 1 May reaffirmed the principles of the comprehensive plan of action. It confirmed that there would be no change to the policy of screening asylum seekers, not to cut-off dates, and that all non-refugees must return to their country of origin. The steering committee also agreed to further consultations on alternative and additional measures to bring about a greatly accelerated rate of return of the non-refugees to Vietnam.
My right hon. Friend rightly drew attention to the position of the United States and made several comments on the United States Administration's opinion. Following contacts with the United States Administration at the highest level, we informed the Americans that we intend to pursue actively the proposal to create a centre under international management in Vietnam to which non-refugees who do not volunteer can be returned pending reintegration into their own communities.
That approach has the support of UNHCR and the International Organisation of Migration. We believe that it offers the best chance of reaching a durable and human solution to this complex and difficult problem. We also believe that the Americans now accept the importance of making the idea work. Discussions on the proposal for internationally managed centres are currently taking place in Geneva between ourselves, the Vietnamese, UNHCR, and IOM. All sides are keen to make progress. But much work remains to be done.
Meanwhile, we will continue our unremitting efforts to secure a permanent solution to the problem and to ease the pressures on Hong Kong.

RUC (Chief Constable's Report)
10.14 am
Mr. Ken Maginnis: I am particularly pleased to have this opportunity to speak about the 1990 annual report of the Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I should first point out that I once served as a special constable in the RUC and presently act as parliamentary adviser to the RUC Federation.
I have, therefore, the greatest affection and admiration for the police in Northern Ireland and nothing I shall say today is intended to detract from the courageous and selfless way in which that service has borne the brunt of 21 years of terrorism. On the contrary, it is intended to highlight the need for a much more realistic approach to the whole problem of policing in an area where the threat is such that every day is a trial not only for the individual policeman but for his family.
Having stated my personal interest in the RUC, I must make it clear that what I am about to say is not motivated by any narrow or sectional interest, but is exclusively in the interests of all the law-abiding people in the community and of Northern Ireland in general.
Year after year, the Chief Constable's report is presented, and for the eight years that I have been an elected Member here I have analysed it with deep concern, because I have seen everything that I believe in and all that I was sent here to represent and uphold eroded by the men of violence. Perhaps in that situation one falls into the trap of believing what one would like to believe. I have on such occasions always looked to the future in the hope that it would be better than the past.
But on 5 July this year it was different. The Chief Constable on this occasion left the long-suffering people of Northern Ireland totally outraged when, after 21 years of terrorism, all he could promise them was:
"The immediate outlook is grim. We are facing the highest terrorist threat in the last two years."
Some may commend his frankness, but finding a Chief Constable reduced to such pessimism caused me to look even more closely than usual at his report.
I could not help but recall the promises which were made in the House in November 1985 by the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he told us that the Anglo-Irish Agreement would bring about peace, stability and reconciliation, an end to megaphone diplomacy and better cross-frontier co-operation and extradition. Not one of those promises has been kept. I looked anew at the report and found that it confirmed everything about which I have continued to warn the Government. No one has listened. Will the Minister today listen to the facts produced by the Chief Constable and to other information which I intend to provide?
One must look at what the report says and at what it fails to say. It has many fine words and phrases. It says:
"United unequivocal condemnation is a powerful weapon in defence of decency and all those values which we, the police and the people, share, cherish and seek to uphold."
It also says:
"The task of bringing terrorists to justice requires determined people of goodwill to come forward and assist the police. Only in this way, together, will we be able to bring an end to the misery which affects our whole community."
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Those are fine words but we all know that in the prevailing security situation there is no way in which such people of good will can be given any degree of protection if they choose to assist the security forces.
Such is the freedom with which terrorists can operate that contractors supplying the security forces are regularly attacked or killed or forced to withdraw their services. Policemen and women are so vulnerable that for their own protection they are having to move in increasing numbers to live in carefully selected estates. There are more and more large areas where they are being advised not to live since they cannot count on reasonable security there.
Yet the Chief Constable fails to tell us how many members of the service have, because of threat, been forced to move home, and he neglects to even acknowledge the contribution and sacrifices which are being made by those who supply goods and services to the security forces.
Those of us who live in Northern Ireland know that during the past six years in particular, there has been a systematic withdrawal of effective policing in many areas. The Chief Constable of Northern Ireland may deny that there are strictly no-go areas, but everyone knows for certain that there are slow-go areas. Because of the threat, people who live in them cannot expect any immediate police or Army reaction when they are in trouble.
The ordinary police officer is often willing to respond to calls for help, but is forbidden from doing so because of inadequate resources in terms of manpower, military back up, or helicopter availability. The use of helicopters is a key element in the movement of security forces to areas in which the IRA may have placed land mines.
I quote from a letter that I received from a police superintendent to whom I had complained about a lack of response to an incident in a town—not in some remote rural area:
"I am pleased to note that you have identified that scarce resources was the contributory factor on the occasion under investigation. Any representations you can make to assist in this aspect will be much appreciated."
That is the kind of reply that I receive again and again from middle-ranking police officers who are doing their best to give a service to the community, but who must choose between putting at risk of life and limb the men under their command and making an immediate response to members of the public who are in trouble.
How did that tragic and frightening state of affairs come about? It has arisen because Minister after Minister has come to the Dispatch Box to tell the House what he likes to believe, and which he has been told by senior police and military officers and by advisers, who know what the Minister would like to believe. It has been one great con game, and in no respect has it been more deceitful than in the way in which co-operation with the Irish Republic has been portrayed. It is to the shame of every right hon. and hon. Member that he or she has fallen for that sham.
I draw the attention of the House to a few incidents that I have monitored, but they do not reflect the totality of such incidents in my constituency, where there is an interface between Fermanagh and South Tyrone, and between the counties of Donegal, Cavan, Leitrim and Monaghan. They give some idea of what is hidden from the House.
On 27 January 1990, a van stolen in Dublin was used two days later in a bomb attack on a police station at Lisbellaw. On 21 February, a mortar attack was made on Kinawley RUC station, and the three vehicles used were

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abandoned by the terrorists, who then escaped at the frontier crossing. On 6 June, a gun attack on one of our manned frontier checkpoints was launched from the Republic, from behind the Garda and Irish army cordon. On 25 June, a van stolen in County Monaghan was used in a 400 lb bomb attack on an Army checkpoint.
On 3 September last year, security forces at a cross-frontier position were fired on from the Republic, and on 27 October, a heavy machine gun attack on helicopters was made from the Republic, again from behind a Garda and Irish army cordon. On 23 November, a young man was abducted from Northern Ireland, taken across to the Republic, and there forced to drive a 3,000 lb proxy bomb to an Army checkpoint.
At the beginning of December, another machine gun attack on an Army checkpoint was made from the Republic, and on 27 December, another cross-frontier machine gun attack was launched. On 21 January this year, a constituent of mine, Colin Stephenson—a 63-year-old ex-policeman—was murdered in Brookborough. The car used by the terrorists had been stolen in County Monaghan on 11 December.
On 22 March, there was another cross-frontier shooting, and on 24 March, a sustained machine gun attack was made from the Republic on an Army patrol. On 8 April, a woman was abducted in the Republic and was forced to carry a bomb to Balleek RUC station. On 24 May, a motorcycle stolen in County Monaghan was used later that day in a murder attempt on an RUC inspector. On 3 June, there was an attack on St. Angelo security base. The lorry used and the mortars attached to it had been brought from. County Donegal. On 23 June, a mortar attack was launched from the Republic on one of our Army positions.
Other incidents come to mind, such as the cross-border attack on the home of Lord Caledon, and several attacks on the Moy bridge permanent vehicle checkpoint. All those attacks originated in the Irish Republic, but no one has been made amenable by the Republic's authorities to answer for any of them.
The Chief Constable's report suggests that relationships with the Republic are good. Hooray for relationships. Perhaps one should listen to the words of Deputy Brendan McGahan, a Fine Gael member of the Irish Parliament, following the murder a few days ago of Thomas Oliver, who was abducted in the Republic and shot by the IRA for allegedly passing information to the Garda. Mr. McGahan referred to the IRA killers as "the border untouchables" and said:
"There are nests of IRA men who are clearly identifiable. The Garda know who they are, but they need evidence. I believe that the whole area"—
that is, the Cooley peninsula and the Dundalk area—
"should become the centre of tremendous attention from the Garda and the Minister for Justice."
Deputy McGahan went on to call for internment. I think that he and I are the realists—not the two Governments. We have much in common here.
It is not just at Cooley that the IRA has the upper hand. I draw attention to the absolute freedom with which an IRA unit more than 30 strong is able to wreak havoc and murder in the west of my constituency from County Donegal.
The leader of Fine Gael, Deputy John Bruton, realises the full implications from the point of view of the Irish Republic. He has said:
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"They are attempting to take on the institutions of the state and are offering a direct challenge to the Garda Siochana. This has very severe implications for the security of the state and for the people living in the state."
That was the reaction to an isolated IRA killing in the Republic—thankfully not so many killings emanate from within the Republic against citizens of that country. Yet we have had to endure that without remission for 22 years and our Government treat the situation as though it had been happening only for the past two weeks and will be resolved within the next two.
The Chief Constable talks about his satisfaction with the state of co-operation, but I can only believe that he does so to please his political masters and at their instigation. Co-operation is not about two neighbouring police chiefs who get on well together, about the freedom of a few senior officers to meet each other, or about the frequency with which RUC commanders are summoned to the Maryfield establishment to exchange platitudes. Co-operation is about the extent to which the war against terrorism is conducted and that is as ineffective now as it was before the Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed—perhaps more so because there are more constraints, more bureaucracy and less real communication between policemen who have to face terrorists at the coal face.
That is not sour grapes—it is the truth. I challenge the Minister to produce a solitary fact that will contradict what I have said. I challenge him to say that one fact that I have placed in front of him, through my own resources of from the Chief Constable's report, is an error.
As regards the killings, the Chief Constable shows in his report that, from 1981 until 1985, there had been a steady but slow decline in the annual rate. As a result, terrorist deaths fell from 101 in 1981 to 54 in 1985. That figure of 54 refers to deaths connected with the security situation. There were 47 terrorist murders in that year, but let me stick to the chief constable's figures. Since the agreement was signed, the average annual death rate has increased by almost 43 per cent. and the number of shooting incidents has risen from 237 in 1985, by a massive 135 per cent., to 559. I wish that the Secretary of State would stop asking me if that was not attributable to successful gun-running from Libya through the Irish Republic. I should have hoped that co-operation would by now have meant the discovery of more than 10 per cent. of the estimated 150 tonnes imported through the Republic at that time. Why has the Chief Constable failed to tackle that in his report?
If the number of killings has risen, surely one must at least expect a similar increase in successes against terrorists, but that is not so. Despite the massive increase in arms and explosives available to the terrorists there are roughly about the same finds as in 1985. What has changed drastically is the number of people charged with terrorist offences. While an average of around 600 were charged each year from 1981 to 1985, only 380 were charged in 1990. Why has the Chief Constable nothing to say about that figure?
Is it not a fact that such are the political pressures on the Chief Constable that law-abiding citizens are getting a thoroughly bad deal and that he has failed to withstand the unprecedented political interferences from both the Northern Ireland Office and the Republic's Government? Let the Minister tell me the respective numbers and ranks of those who work in complaints and discipline and those

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who struggle at the coal face in special branch. Do those numbers bear any relevance to the respective size of the problem?
Is it not true that complaints and discipline are largely abused for political and terrorist advantage and that of 4,132 complaints lodged, 55·4 per cent. were withdrawn, 38·5 per cent. were not substantiated, 4·6 per cent. were of such a minor nature that they were informally resolved and only 1·5 per cent. were substantiated? Why has the Chief Constable not commented on the abuse of the system and the resultant waste of police time, not merely affecting those who are investigating but those who too often have to be suspended from duty for long periods while they are investigated? Should he not be asking for some form of redress against those who waste police time in that way?
Why have we not heard from the Chief Constable about the number of security bases which have been made inoperable or ineffective by terrorist activity? How many of his own police stations have been wholly or partially knocked out of action, and the issue of replacement put on the long finger? What is his approach to the systematic destruction of the Birches, Tynan, Loughgall and Benburb and the virtual closure of Moy—all within a 10-mile radius? Why are the public, to whom he appeals for more help, not being told what is to happen? He heads up their police force, not that of any Secretary of State for Northern Ireland of any Foreign Minister of the Republic.
On the question of welfare, let me ask why the health and welfare of the officers merits but a single statistical paragraph plus another which alludes to the computerisation of medical records, when we know that a 13,000-strong police force has a total of 226,652 days lost through sickness? What is the level of nervous disorders, and heart disease, for instance? Where is the concern for officers and their families who suffer similar illnesses, which of course cannot be recorded? The public should know about that.
Why is there no mention of the hundreds of members of the full-time police reserve—some of whom have now served for almost 20 years—who do exactly the same job as regular officers but are still without any pension rights? Should the Chief Constable not be making the public aware that the Government are bad employers in that respect? Is it not important that he should highlight how it is virtually impossible, for security reasons, for a full-time reserve officer to find alternative employment if he leaves the force and how he is obliged to live on social security between the time he retires and the time he qualifies for the ordinary state pension?
The Chief Constable refers to his request for 441 additional regular officers, and welcomes the Police Authority's support for that. He tells us he awaits a response from the Northern Ireland Office. But are those the facts?
As long ago as the spring of 1987, the then Chief Constable, Sir John Hermon, made a detailed case to the authority for a huge increase in the establishment of the RUC, which had been static from 1984. The response from the authority, with the approval of the Secretary of State, was an interim increase of 250 in the establishment of the
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full-time reserve, pending further consideration of the main bid by Her Majesty's inspectorate, the Police Authority and the Secretary of State.
The main bid was the subject of detailed analysis and discussion with the then Chief Constable by Her Majesty's inspectorate but the matter did not come back to the Police Authority within Sir John's period of command, which ended in May 1989. Shortly after his appointment in the summer of 1989, the new Chief Constable initiated a new manpower review. That resulted in a request to the authority for an increase in establishment of approximately 450 officers. The case had been prepared in accordance with Home Office guidelines and scrutinised by Her Majesty's inspectorate. It was the subject of several intensive discussions between the RUC, HMI and the authority in the autumn of 1990.
Ultimately, the authority was satisfied with the case and forwarded it to the Secretary of State in October or November last year, with its full support. Since then the case seems to have become absolutely bogged down in the bureaucracy of the Northern Ireland Office with the result that, incredibly, the Secretary of State told the House:
"In the first instance, the Chief Constable made a submission to the Police Authority, which in due course, will come to me."
In fairness to him, however, he said almost a moment later:
"I am considering that request with all the seriousness that it demands."—[Official Report, 11 July 1991; Vol. 194, c. 1071.]
But it is highly probable that his first remark was right and that his second was a typical gentlemanly attempt to cover up for the torpidity of the bureaucracy that services him and his Department.
In the context of the abysmal security situation that now prevails, the way in which the matter has been handled is an absolute disgrace. The blame lies fairly and squarely with the Northern Ireland Office and, I am sorry to have to say, with the leadership of the Police Authority which is unfortunately subservient to the patronage of the Northern Ireland Office.
The Chief Constable's report is superficial and fails properly to reflect the true position. Perhaps that has been the norm, but it must change. If we are to have a Government information document, so be it; but let it not be the Chief Constable's report. Let us have something which is no longer hedged about with political considerations. The public do not require a pep talk or a whitewash. They know that they are being daily let down by the Government and what the level of effective security really is.
It is not up to the Chief Constable to act as an apologist for the Northern Ireland Office. He must be accountable to the public through the Police Authority. Of course, one must sympathise with the Chief Constable in this because the Police Authority has not managed to escape the manipulation of the Government. The relationship between the Police Authority and the Chief Constable is unsatisfactory.
The Police Authority was set up in 1970 in order to remove the RUC from political influence. Is it not then anomalous for the Chief Constable of the RUC to be obliged on a regular basis to interface with the Anglo-Irish Conference on matters which are never disclosed to the Police Authority or discussed with it and are cloaked from

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the public, the majority of whom are opposed to the process, but from whom the Chief Constable expects trust and support?
A series of questions arises from areas of policing in Northern Ireland, not all of which I shall have time to put. They deal with the relationship with the Police Authority and the attitude to it. One wonders about the morale of the RUC at the level of chief superintendent and above, following such a disappointment and calculated slight as was caused by the exclusion of internal candidates from the shortlist when the present Chief Constable was appointed.
There are persistent rumours of difficulties between the Chief Constable and the chairman of the authority. The latter, by the nature of his appointment, is dependent on the support and patronage of the Secretary of State and, as a result, he must be considerably restricted in his independence.
Another matter which causes me great anxiety is that it is alleged that the Chief Constable intends to abolish the three senior assistant chief constable ranks and replace them with a deputy chief constable. I hope that that is not so, because the people who at present occupy those ranks are three of the most experienced, principled and independent police officers—men who are concerned first and foremost with the welfare of those under their command and with the needs of the community.
There are many other questions that I should have liked to ask, such as why the Northern Ireland Office found it important to remove at one fell swoop 11 of 18 members of the Police Authority when in so doing it removed those who presently occupy the positions of chairman and vice-chairman within the four main committees. The new appointees are completely green about Police Authority work and will be immediately pressed into the positions of chairman and vice-chairman in those committees. I cannot believe—I declare myself as an Ulster Unionist in saving so—that there was not some malice behind the way in which those men, two of whom served in the security services and one of whom experienced horrific injuries in giving that service, were removed from the service.
I challenge the Minister today. I have dealt with the facts. Let him deny the facts that I have put before him. I have posed questions on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland, which deserve an answer. I finish as I started by saying that we have 13,000 dedicated police officers in Northern Ireland. With their families, they sacrifice a great deal on behalf of the community. They deserve more and the community deserves more. Let us all hope that we obtain more than we have been given until now.
10.47 am
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Dr. Brian Mawhinney): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) on initiating this debate on an important subject. It is important not only to hon. Members, as he made clear, and to the Government, as I shall make clear, but, as he was right to say, to all people who live in Northern Ireland.
I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman started his speech by paying tribute to the Chief Constable. I echo that tribute. Given the job that all chief constables have to do in the United Kingdom—it is not an easy job in any circumstances, as the House is well aware—there are
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special difficulties in being Chief Constable of the RUC. I am happy to associate the Government with the tribute that the hon. Gentleman paid to the Chief Constable. I am glad that he paid it because in the rest of his speech there was a degree of robustness about some of his comments which will be studied with care by those to whom they were directed.
I do not dispute the hon. Gentleman's right to express his views or those of his constituents, or to reflect the views of the federation to which he quite properly referred. However, he and I both understand the importance of reflecting those views within a balanced framework, so that we do not create an impression that would be unhelpful to those whom we oppose. We must not create the impression that matters in Northern Ireland are worse than they are, or that we are not encouraged by and proud of what the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the reserve achieve on behalf of the community. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees with those sentiments.
The hon. Gentleman will understand that he took a significant proportion of the time available and there is no way in which I can answer all the points that he raised, but the Government and, I am sure, the Chief Constable will want to read and reflect on his remarks. A number of questions that he raised about the Chief Constable's report are matters for the Chief Constable. Given the strictures in his speech and his remarks about the relationship between the Northern Ireland Office and the Chief Constable, I shall leave the Chief Constable to answer; otherwise, I shall expose myself to even more strictures the next time that the hon. Gentleman makes a speech on that subject.
To suggest that Ministers believe that the security problems of Northern Ireland started two weeks ago and will finish two weeks hence is not a reflection on Ministers but an untypical reflection on the hon. Gentleman, who knows better. He knows the record of the Government's commitment and he also knows, better than most hon. Members, that the security forces and the RUC are not divorced from Government. It is the Secretary of State's responsibility to set security policies. No one argues that the RUC is not operationally independent, but if the hon. Gentleman reads what he has said in Hansard he will see that he has given the impression that he would like the RUC to be almost divorced from Government. The relationship is entirely proper and Ministers are not involved in making operational decisions. Given the tone of the hon. Gentleman's speech, he may take some comfort from that.
The Chief Constable has a responsibility to convey to the people of Northern Ireland how he sees the circumstances at any particular time. As the hon. Gentleman rightly stated, the Chief Constable said that the threat is higher than it has been for the past two years. To extrapolate from that statement, as the hon. Gentleman sought to do, that there had been no improvement over the years and that we could not look forward to a bright future does not do justice to the Chief Constable. The hon. Gentleman knows better than almost any hon. Member that the level of terrorist violence is cyclical—that is not technically the best word, but it ebbs and flows. It is therefore right to recognise the advantages and successes, just as it is appropriate to recognise the difficult times. To chastise the Chief Constable for drawing attention to his honest assessment, which the hon. Gentleman would surely want the people of Northern Ireland to have, is unfortunate.

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Although I cannot, off the top of my head, verify that every incident to which the hon. Gentleman referred emanated from the Republic, no one could deny that there have been incidents emanating from across the border. That cannot be denied because it is on public record, so the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that Ministers were trying to protect hon. Members from that knowledge does not stand up. People have committed crimes in Northern Ireland and then gone across the border. It is also a matter of public record that crimes have emanated from inside Northern Ireland and people have gone to ground there having committed those crimes.
The hon. Gentleman's arguments would have been more balanced had he also referred to the Garda's activities in terms of what they positively achieve, as well as expressing legitimate concerns. To the year ending 31 May this year, the Garda recovered 59 weapons, 16,000 rounds of ammunition and 58·2 kg of explosives. That did not just happen. It reflects police work and co-operation across the border between the RUC and the Garda. The hon. Gentleman is asked not only by Ministers but by the Chief Constable to accept that, although security relations across the border can and need to be improved, the relations between the RUC and the Garda are, I am told, very good. They are improving not at a social or professional level but at an operational level, which is the point that the hon. Gentleman sought to make. That is important to us both.
Mr. Maginnis: Will the Minister give way?
Dr. Mawhinney: No, I shall not give way, because the hon. Gentleman spoke for 33 minutes and I have only about 13 minutes in which to respond.
He will also want to join me in thanking the Garda for detecting the largest bomb—I believe that it was found at Raphoe—that has ever been seen in the island of Ireland. Had that bomb made it across the border, the damage that it would have done and the number of lives that it would have taken would have been enormous. It is therefore important that we keep that balance in mind.
A further point that was emphasised by the hon. Gentleman and which deserves a reply was about resources. The hon. Gentleman will have welcomed the fact that the Police Authority budget for this year is £43 million higher than it was last year, which represents a 9 per cent. increase. Any requests from the Police Authority during the year are given careful consideration, but a 9 per cent. increase is not bad. As the hon. Gentleman made play of the past five years, he may be encouraged to know that during that period the Police Authority grant has risen from £380 million to £514 million—a rise of £134 million. Alongside that, as the hon. Gentleman rightly remarks, there is a manpower bid for 239 regular officers
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and 202 full-time RUC reserves to be appointed and trained over two years. That is considerable additional funding.
The hon. Gentleman also recognised that the Northern Ireland Office has a legitimate responsibility to look at those requests for public expenditure. Naturally, they must be set against other requests for public expenditure, bearing in mind that the defeat of terrorism is our first priority. That process is nearing completion and the Secretary of State hopes soon to be in a position to respond to that request. The resources argument is helped by the fact that civilianisation of the force is proceeding, and that will provide extra police on the ground. It is also helped by the fact that the Chief Constable is pursuing a policy of centralising and looking for economies of scale. Centralising support services will, in turn, free resources to be deployed on the ground. The hon. Gentleman and I agree that that is where manpower resources need to be deployed.
I do not have time to answer all the hon. Gentleman's questions but I want to respond to one point that he made. The security forces and the police are at the heart of the fight against terrorism in Northern Ireland, but they cannot fight by themselves. It must be a community effort. Everyone must feel part of the fight against terrorism and the support for the RUC and the security forces. The hon. Gentleman and I will agree, I hope, that that support is increasing. Intelligence is improving and becoming more frequent. As that continues, the security forces and the RUC, together with the people, will drive back the terrorist threat——
Mr. David Wilshire: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but I understand that 11 o'clock is the time when statement are usually made. I therefore ask whether you have had a request from the Government this morning to make a statement about the pollution of water supplies. As you know, there was a statement earlier this week about an incident that was deemed to be serious and there was criticism of the delay in notifying the public.
Within the past hour, it has come to my attention that an even more serious incident occurred on 26 December last year. It affected my constituents and those of many other hon. Members. Nobody, but nobody, was told anything. The incident has only now come to light through the media.
Since this incident was more serious than the one discussed earlier, should not there be a statement, and should not the Government conduct an inquiry into the incident and into why there has been silence for so long?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): I am not aware of any requests for a statement on this matter, but I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman's point will have been noted.

UNESCO
11.1 am
Mr. Cyril D. Townsend: I am delighted to have this opportunity to raise the subject of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation, and in particular the need for the United Kingdom to return to its membership without delay. I hope that my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) and for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Wells) will be allowed to join our brief debate. Both are members of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and both have taken a close interest in UNESCO for many years.
The House will know of Britain's dominant influence in establishing UNESCO at a preparatory conference held at the Institute of Civil Engineers in London in November 1945. Its secretariat was initially based in London. Its first director general was British and its constitution was deposited in London. Its accounts were audited by the United Kingdom Comptroller and Auditor General.
I have no doubt that, while it was a member, Britain was especially favourably treated. A number of consultancies and contracts were placed by UNESCO with United Kingdom individuals and companies. The Library Association told the Foreign Affairs Select Committee that the United States and the United Kingdom
"have together provided the overwhelming majority of librarians, archivists and other information scientists sent by UNESCO as consultants and advisors."
The United Nations Association told the same Committee:
"leaving aside unquantified yields to eg the British publishing industry … the United Kingdom reaps a measurable harvest from its membership."
In short, the United Kingdom receipts from the UNESCO budget were substantially in excess of its direct budgetary contribution—our balance of payments benefited.
I spoke in the debate in November 1985 after the Foreign Affairs Committee had unanimously recommended continued United Kingdom membership of UNESCO, as had the officers of the Conservative foreign affairs committee. Thirteen of the 14 members from all parties who spoke after the Minister for Overseas Development supported our continued membership. The one who did not was given a brief by a Whip and invited to call for our withdrawal. He got his reward on earth and is now a Minister. I suspect that he is ashamed of that little episode, so I will not name him this morning.
Alas, the Government spurned the advice of Parliament and, I believe, the advice of the Foreign Office, and Britain withdrew from membership at the end of 1985. The Government spurned the advice of scientific, educational and cultural institutions. They also spurned the unanimous opinion of our European Community and Commonwealth partners that we should not take the easy option and back out. I suspect that the decision to withdraw was taken by the Prime Minister of the day at a time when British foreign policy was far too closely allied with that of the Reagan Administration.
For much the same reason, we also abandoned all the fine work that we had put into the law of the sea, which had also clearly been in our national interest. The United States-based Heritage Foundation was allowed to play a large part in moulding British official and public opinion. At that time, as Mr. Gough Whitlam pointed out, the foundation was running campaigns attacking the United
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Nations and its agencies. Many foreign policy decisions taken during that period were regarded on both sides of the House as going against our international traditions and our worldwide roles and responsibilities.
My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will be aware that there is still a certain amount of tidying up to be done.
I should like to make it clear that I am by no means starry-eyed about UNESCO. On the contrary, I am well aware of just how badly managed it has been and of how far it strayed from its original course. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, who has kindly come along to reply to this debate, had not yet entered the House when I initiated an Adjournment debate on some of the wilder aspects of the new world information order, as it was then called.
I strongly support the principle of universality while much disliking the word itself. There has been bipartisan support for it in the House for many years. We make a great mistake if we go on picking and choosing which United Nations body or agency we desire to belong to. The hostile Commonwealth reaction to our withdrawal—Commonwealth countries rightly felt badly let down after giving us so much support within UNESCO—partly reflected the high premium placed by Commonwealth and third-world countries on the principle of universality in the membership of the United Nations and its agencies. Every breach of that principle is seen by many as devaluing the entire United Nations system.
The Foreign Affairs Committee concluded in its 1985 report:
"a breach by the United Kingdom of the principle of universality in the UN and its Agencies could have long-term, and damaging, consequences for those organisations, and not merely for UNESCO alone."
I suggest that in the long run we shall put at risk our seat on the Security Council. It is already a matter of comment at the United Nations, where other countries such as Germany and Japan are seen to have a good case for Security Council membership.
Looking back on the foolish withdrawal in 1985, it becomes obvious that the United Kingdom's contribution to UNESCO was more fully appreciated in UNESCO than in the United Kingdom. There was genuine regret at our departure. Our contribution was seen as having been at a much higher level than that of the United States. Looking back, it is also obvious that much of the row was about the influence of the Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe. Thank heavens that in 1991 we live in a very different world.
My hon. Friend the Minister will want to tell us—no doubt he has been briefed to do so—that, although UNESCO has made considerable changes, they are still insufficient for our return. I fear that he will be in danger of sounding like Mr. Shamir, who, in the context of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, is always in favour of talks, while always putting obstacles in the way of them—as we heard on the radio this morning. Some Conservative Members will want to argue that UNESCO has now reformed itself sufficiently to allow us to go back, but my case is different. I believe that the Government let Britain down by quitting. It is in the national interest to rejoin—the sooner the better.
All pro-European Conservative Members have used the argument that we needed to be in UNESCO so that we could influence decisions and those who make them. We

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have said that it was not good enough to react to those decisions. Precisely the same arguments apply in this debate. We walked off the pitch in a huff, leaving our team to continue the struggle for reform in which, up to then, we had played an honourable part. Now, we wail and whinge from the sidelines instead of returning to the vacant place in the team.
My hon. Friend the Minister told me in a letter dated 3 July:
"We believe that we can exert real influence on the process from where we now stand."
I do not accept that. This is a crucial year in the charting of UNESCO's future. The place that we left is being filled with other national interests, to the detriment of British language users and British interests in general. My hon. Friend will no doubt say that we are monitoring, reviewing, surveying and checking. We have put up £50,000 to fund a management review by independent consultants of UNESCO's office of public information. My hon. Friend the Minister is smiling; he no doubt has a section of his speech devoted to that issue.
We must stop being a spectator and start being a player. We would be a strong player on the managerial and administrative side. The United Kingdom is badly needed, not just for financial reasons. Both the United Kingdom and America are needed if effective reforms are to be carried through. I regret the loss of the United Kingdom's input into the academic, scientific and educational programmes, of which Japan and France are rightly taking full advantage. The truth is that, while we monitor, the United Kingdom and its influence is marginalised.
I hope that my hon. Friend will refer to early-day motion 122, which shows how much support there is in the House for our return. I hope that my hon. Friends will also refer to the recent Select Committee report as I do not have time to do so. I believe that, on a free vote, the House would come out overwhelmingly in favour of our return. I also believe that the non-governmental organisations are overwhelmingly in favour of our return. We shall return one day, and we lose every day that we fail to do so.
How can the United Kingdom influence UNESCO's policies on science education if it has no part in their formulation? There must be a danger that our absence will be accepted as the norm, and a vital sector of academic and scientific activity will be closed to the United Kingdom for the foreseeable future. It is astonishing that we are failing to use UNESCO to promote English as the major means of communication in the modern world. We are setting a bad example to the world. We should announce our return and pledge our determination to help UNESCO clean up its act and return to the high standards that we helped it to achieve after world war two.
Fundamentalism is rampant today, not only in the middle east. Our country has a fine record as a practitioner of the tolerant approach. We should be demonstrating that approach in 1991 in UNESCO. The way forward for Britain is not to sulk and opt out, rather to participate, co-operate and use our special talents in Rolls-Royce diplomacy to help UNESCO to get over its undoubted problems and carry out the vital task that it has been given by the peoples of the United Nations.
11.5 am
Mr. Jim Lester: It is a pleasure to support my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) in this debate. I was pleased that he gained a place in the ballot.
On a day when, because of a little local difficulty, people are talking about the value of Select Committees, this debate shows their true value. We have taken a consistent view and considered evidence from the widest possible range of participants. We did so in 1985, when the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs decided that we should not have left UNESCO. That decision was taken in liaison with some members of the United States Congress who also opposed America's peremptory withdrawal. We were to follow a year later.
In 1990, we had another review and talked to a wide range of people. We absorbed the sort of evidence that Select Committees should consider, and came to a balanced and dispassionate view, which was that much progress had been made by Professor Mayor since the original criticisms were levelled in 1985 which caused us to leave.
Although we were opposed to our leaving, believing that we would be best able to reorganise the organisation from inside, not outside, we charted the reforms which had been introduced by Professor Mayor with considerable energy, and which had then been carried out. We thought that, as wise men, we should give the Government the benefit of the doubt and said that we thought that the reform process was moving extremely well. We said that, although there was a little to do, if the process continued at the pace it had until then, the Government should consider returning within a year. We did not recommend an immediate return because we felt that our suggestion of one year was appropriate to the pace of reform. Now that year is up—this is 1991—which is why we are having today's debate.
There has been some movement in the Government, and we have said that we are moving in the same direction as the Government but at a different pace. For the reasons that my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath has described, the Select Committee feels that we should return now. The Government have said that they will give £50,000 to review the work of UNESCO and then have another period of consideration.
Our original fundamental concerns remain. First and foremost, we believe that the longer we stay out, the less integrated much of what Britain has to offer in the critical spheres of education, science and culture will become. We have been out of UNESCO for six years; if we push that period to a decade, the integration achieved through our excellence in those three critical spheres, which included a better balance of payments figure, will be lost. Therefore, we are on the sidelines during the most critical decade.
Many of us recognise that the decade of the 1990s is a critical period in which we are seeking to narrow the gap between the developed world and the developing world. The process of education is critical in the developing world. In an earlier debate today we talked about mass emigration from Vietnam to Hong Kong for economic reasons. I also gather that, today, there are problems in Italy, where there are 24,000 Albanians whom Italy wants to send back. That is just the tip of a massive potential emigration to the developed world of peoples from countries where they believe themselves to be less

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fortunate and more deprived. That is one of the most important spheres in which UNESCO can help, together with other United Nations organisations.
Education is critical; we must ensure that people throughout the world are as well educated as possible. Only on that basis can people start to bring their own countries up to a high standard, revive the economy, and consistently provide the sort of environment in which people want to live. If countries are not able to do that, the consequences for future generations will be beyond anything that we have ever faced before.
It is for those reasons, plus the fact that we should attempt to achieve successful reform from within, that we are today arguing that my hon. Friend the Minister should shorten the pace of his interest. I am delighted that he is interested and has announced that the Government are to fund a review. However, he should shorten the pace and work to a sensible time scale that enables Britain to play a full part in UNESCO. As soon as possible in London, we should work with the people who first established UNESCO and who hold the relevant documents.
At the end of his statement at the recent 136th session of the executive board, Professor Mayor said:
"It has been said that a pessimist is a well-informed optimist. As a scientist I respect the results. On occasions, these have made me a hopeful director general. I think that a hopeful person may either be pessimistic or optimistic, but hopefulness implies more than being well-informed. It means being committed and involved."
I commend those words to my hon. Friend the Minister.
11.20 am
Mr. Bowen Wells: I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) on obtaining this debate. It gives us an opportunity to review with my hon. Friend the Minister the progress that is being made with UNESCO.
It is worth reminding the House that UNESCO was founded in 1945 on the proposition that, if war is born of the ideas of man and out of their culture, peace could be born of the same. UNESCO was established in order to influence world thinking on how to keep the peace and prevent war. It is those fundamental ideas that UNESCO seeks to foster through education, science and culture. Science makes war much worse and makes it more likely to destroy mankind.
This nation is rich in culture and education. The English language dominates science and education throughout the world. However, we would be mistaken if we thought that the English language could be taken for granted. It is by no means the dominant human language—Chinese is spoken by many more people throughout the world. Therefore, our education, culture and language are at risk if we do not foster and support them and if we are not confident that they have a contribution to make to the world.
My plea to my hon. Friend the Minister arid the Government is on those philosophical grounds. If we begin to lose our pre-eminence and great fortune in dominating education and science, we will also lose out in philosophy and ideas. In doing so, we will deprive the world of what I believe is a developed form of government that permits progress and change without war. I believe that the ideas and issues of war and peace lie at the heart of this debate. Without our contribution, the world will be a much less safe place.
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On the issue of universality, it is un-British to take one's ball away and refuse to play. That is what the Government did when they withdrew from UNESCO. It is British to stay in an organisation and to push for reform from within, to meet all the debates head on and put our arguments in a straightforward manner. That is in our democratic tradition. It is the tradition of the House and it is the way in which we seek to persuade and change. For Britain to withdraw is just a failure of courage. It is a failure of confidence in our own ideas and a failure to put them across and have them debated.
There were good reasons for withdrawal. UNESCO was going badly and sadly wrong and anybody who had to endure the endless executive board meetings of the annual conferences in remote parts of eastern Europe will attest to the extreme frustration that was engendered in anyone who was truly interested in promoting education, science and culture throughout the world. However, many of the reforms that we wished to see are now in place and the reductions of the programmes to which we objected, particularly the new world information order, have taken place by common consent. They have been removed from the agenda and have been replaced, in the case of the new world information order, by a commitment to the freedom and pluralism of the press and the spreading of ideas. Freedom of the press is essential for democratic forms of government and for government by consent. Against my better judgment, the shock of the withdrawal of Britain and the United States may have brought about that reform more quickly than any other method.
We have also achieved a great deal towards decentralisation of the programmes from 80 per cent. of them being carried out in Paris to a large number of offices being established overseas. More needs to be done. UNESCO has also reformed its administration and management, which was seriously in need of repair. Many of the reforms have been put in place by the current director-general who appointed the Hammarskjold and Wilenski committees to deal with the personnel administration. It is promised that all those reforms will be implemented by next October. The director-general also ensured that a concentration of programmes took place, thus eliminating many of the serious objections that we had when we withdrew.
The director-general has also appointed an administrator of great and proven worth, Mr. Sharma, who was previously with Air India. He has implemented many additional reforms in the management of the organisation. Nobody would pretend that those reforms are complete or perfect, but they are moving strongly in the right direction.
The Japanese Government have made a constructive proposal on how the board should be reformed. Over the years it has become far too large and is not capable of acting as an executive committee to control the director-general and his staff and move them in the directions in which the international community would wish. The sub-committee on executive and financial advice to the board is welcome and I hope that it will he supported.
Britain needs to be there to support Japan and the European Economic Community partners, all of whom have recently expressed to a visitor from the United Nations Association, Mr. Rashid Kareh, that they wish the United Kingdom to return to UNESCO. I should like to pay tribute to Mr. Kareh for helping to persuade the Government to return to UNESCO. He recently visited all

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our European partners, including France, Spain and Germany, and they said that they wanted Britain to return to UNESCO to make the reforms work. The same has been said by Japan, Switzerland and Sweden and the Commonwealth. African Commonwealth countries feel let down by Britain's absence because they see overtaking them in UNESCO councils the francophile culture and language promoted by the French and by French-speaking African countries. The English language countries of Africa feel that they do not have the support and friendship that they could expect when Britain was present.
If this is a universal call for a return from our principal allies, and if it is essentially in our own interests and the interests of world order and culture, we should return. There is one overriding reason for return which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe. If there is to be development in much of the third world—over two thirds of the world's population—education must take place. That education would be best based on the British culture and English language, carrying with it the ideas which we have sedulously matured and which we guard, not just in the form of political ideas but ideas of how one person or one culture relates to another.
If we do not do that, other cultures will take over. Much evidence shows that the Islamic culture is expanding in northern China, often with the support of UNESCO and the French; but where is the British culture, education and language? It is nowhere to be seen. That is a dangerous position for us. Without education, without the elimination of illiteracy, to which UNESCO is devoted, and without our help, we shall not bring about the development of those countries.
Britain has achieved its objectives by leaving UNESCO. It should return immediately to foster the things that we believe in, which UNESCO is pursuing. It should do so now.
11.30 am
Sir Robert Rhodes James: May I publicly express my warm congratulations to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on the honour of the award of Privy Councillorship, which has given much pleasure to the entire House?
As the House knows, I served in the United Nations for several years. It may seem strange, therefore, that in 1985 I most strongly supported our withdrawal from UNESCO, which had become a scandal and a disgrace to the United Nations Organisation. Although in principle I most strongly agree with my hon. Friends the Members for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend), for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) and for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Wells), none the less I find the reforms disappointing because the objectives of UNESCO are not being met. In the circumstances, I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will give a cautious response to my hon. Friends.
11.31 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) for raising this subject because it gives me the opportunity to explain the Government's thinking on it.
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I am sad that I shall be constrained to disagree with him and with my hon. Friends the Members for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Wells) and for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester). I do not believe that Britain should rejoin UNESCO at present. I am sorry to disagree with them because, as they know, I have personal regard for all three of them. I am most grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir R. Rhodes James).
The United Kingdom was one of the founding members of UNESCO. In London, in 1945, UNESCO's constitution was adopted. The constitution is sound and I commend it to hon. Members. It refers, among other things, to the
"great and terrible war which has now ended",
and attributes the reasons for the conflict to the denial of the democratic principles, of the dignity, equality and mutual respect of men, and by the propagation in their place, through ignorance and prejudice, of the doctrine of the inequality of men and races. Those are high words.
Britain's attachment to those democratic principles, and to respect for human rights and fundamental reforms, was expressed not only in our support for UNESCO but was apparent in our commitment to building the United Nations system, and through that greater respect for the rule of law in international affairs.
Any debate on UNESCO should be careful to place the organisation in that wider context. The world and the United Nations have changed much since 1945. For all the difficulties that have been faced by the UN, much has been achieved in that time, and much remains to be done. Last week, the Heads of State and Government of the Group of Seven, meeting in London, stated their faith in the future of the United Nations. They committed themselves to working for a stronger United Nations and made clear their belief that a revitalised organisation would play a central role in strengthening the international order.
We are profoundly committed to those objectives. The ideals that prompted us and others to establish UNESCO 46 years ago are still respected by the United Kingdom. It was a matter of regret that we were compelled to withdraw from it at the end of 1985, but there is general recognition, even among many of the most vocal supporters of our renewed membership, that we were right to do so. I realise that my hon. Friends the Members for Bexleyheath, for Broxtowe and for Hertford and Stortford do not hold that view. Some of the reasons that prompted our withdrawal, especially the politicisation of UNESCO, are, I am glad to note, no longer applicable, but I am afraid that others remain.
At the beginning of last year, four years after our departure, two reviews of UNESCO were conducted—an internal review by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and a review by the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. Both arrived at broadly similar conclusions. They agreed that some improvements had been made since 1985 but that the United Kingdom should not return to membership.
In its report, the Foreign Affairs Select Committee decided that
"some more time is necessary before it will be possible to be certain of the Director-General's ability to deliver the reforms which UNESCO badly needs."
Those are significant words, because the delivery of reforms is what is necessary. In his reply to the Chairman of the Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), my predecessor, my hon. Friend

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the Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury), agreed with that view but made it clear that we should not rejoin UNESCO until we were certain.
That shows the fundamental difference between my opinion and that of my three hon. Friends. They opposed our withdrawal in 1985. It follows that they believe that the logic of our position is that we should rejoin as soon as possible. But they lost that argument.
Mr. Wells: It was not an argument.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: In a debating sense, they lost the argument. They failed to persuade colleagues in Government of the strength of their opinions. I was outside government at the time, but I strongly supported the Government's decision. My hon. Friends want us to rejoin because they never wanted us to leave. Those who felt that we had to leave do not believe that we should return. We must use our departure to effect the best reforms. I hope to explain how that will take place.
Since last year's reviews, there have been some welcome signs from UNESCO. No one would claim that progress has been fast, but it has begun. I am particularly pleased by the clear recognition of UNESCO member states that there is a need not only to talk about but to achieve reforms. As I said, so far, the achievements have been in short supply.
The last two sessions of UNESCO's executive board discussed fundamental improvements, but so far little has been done to meet expectations. We are not, therefore, certain about the delivery of reforms. Our doubts are shared by reform-minded members of UNESCO. In that context, I was interested to hear the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, because everyone knows that his commitment to the ideals of the United Nations is second to none.
At the executive board's last session, its 136th, in May and June, we continued to hear criticisms from members about administrative and financial matters, despite undertakings from the director-general to achieve improvements. In March, the director-general received a report—the Hammarskjold and Wilenski report—on the progress that had been achieved in implementing management proposals that were made in December 1989 and February 1990. It is clear from the report that many important proposals remain unimplemented and that little has been done to improve matters. The secretariat staff remains top-heavy. The promotion system is still unsatisfactory, and recruitment needs to be improved. Senior posts need to be pared and the status of women in the secretariat needs to be enhanced. I am glad to say that in the presence of my Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Hicks).
As well as the need to improve UNESCO's management and administration, we are convinced that greater decentralisation must take place. It is encouraging that member states have recognised and are addressing that problem. A study on decentralisation was presented to the last executive board. It concluded that UNESCO field offices often feel remote from headquarters, that they are inadequately supported and consulted, and generally underfunded. It was decided that further work should be done to indentify the patterns of decentralisation which would best serve the needs of the various regions. Of course I hope to see progress by the time of the next
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executive board in October, but I am concerned that it may yet prove difficult for UNESCO to translate useful, sensible recommendations into action.
What other improvements do we and others regard as important? We continue to believe that UNESCO must achieve real programme concentration. It has been difficult to gauge from the draft programme and budget for 1992–93 just how much concentration has been achieved, but there is almost certainly scope for more. I recognise that that may not always be easy. UNESCO has to establish real programme priorities, and stick to them. This inevitably means that low priority programmes, but ones that are often dear to individual member states, will not be carried out, yet this is necessary if UNESCO is to make the best use of its resources.
We were pleased that the next biennium's budget shows negative growth in real terms. This was very largely achieved by member states demanding that expenditure not absolutely necessary for the functioning of the organisation should be cut. It remains the case, however, that, as shown at the last executive board, it is not always easy to get satisfactory answers on budgetary matters.
The budget is difficult to interpret and detailed information is often difficult to obtain. The budget should be much more transparent. Member states would be able more easily to monitor budgetary and administrative issues if the functions of the executive board were improved.
We are generally sympathetic to the interest shown by the Japanese and other member states in trying to achieve a more efficient executive board. The Japanese proposals to amend the constitution are broadly acceptable to us and they have attracted widespread interest. In the middle of July the director-general had received various amendments to the Japanese proposals. It is now up to the general conference to decide the success of this important attempt at reform.
I think that our policy on UNESCO is well understood by its member states and I acknowledge that some members would like to see us rejoin. Equally, others appreciate that our close interest in the organisation may well have proved a catalyst for reform. We shall continue to pay close interest to developments in UNESCO. My hon. Friends have recognised that the recent fund of £50,000 that we have made available shows that we are not blind to the situation in UNESCO and wish to see honest and genuine progress so that one day we shall be able to rejoin a reformed organisation.
As I have said, we recently agreed to make up to £50,000 available to meet a request for help from UNESCO to carry out an independent management review study of its office of public information. This is an area where there is a clear need for cost cutting and reform. This decision clearly demonstrates our desire to see a suitably reformed body. It will be most interesting to see if UNESCO will find it possible to implement the recommendations of the consultants when they are available.
As I have made clear, we continue to support the ideals on which UNESCO—assisted by us—was founded. We shall continue to monitor developments closely and look forward to the day when we are able to rejoin a suitably reformed organisation. Before we can consider that, we must see concrete progress in several important areas. I

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hope that the next executive board, in September and October, and UNESCO's general conference in October and November, will lead to such progress.

Health Service (Greater Glasgow)
11.44 am
Mr. Tom Clarke: I am pleased to have this opportunity immediately before the recess for a debate on the important matter of the Greater Glasgow health board and in particular on the financial constraints and the morale of patients and staff. That is a great worry for most people who are aware of what is happening in Greater Glasgow and in a sizeable part of my constituency.
I welcome the presence of the Minister. I think that he will confirm that the board has been underfunded this year by about £13 million and that it has been instructed to make further cuts of between £20 million and £40 million over the next two years. It is not surprising that rumours abound. In The Scotsman of 10 May there was an article headed:
"One-third of Glasgow's senior hospital doctors asked to quit."
I do not know whether that is true, but I know that the constraints are causing enormous problems. I hope that the Minister will seize this opportunity to enlighten us on Scottish Office thinking.
Much of what is happening affects Strathkelvin in Monklands, West. A few days ago in the House, my hon. Friend for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) expressed his worries about the long-term future of Stobhill. We are concerned about the immediate impact of decisions on the maternity and other units. Much of my speech will be devoted to the great problems of Stoneyetts hospital in Moodiesburn in the heart of my constituency which the board is determined to close.
What have such closures to do with community care? It is a serious decision and will have profound effects on the mortality rate, an issue which has not been given due consideration by the board. Few of my constituents understand why the board is so determined to close Stoneyetts after the minimum of consultation.
We are looking at the land and land values and some of us have reached an inescapable conclusion. I asked an independent valuer to assess the value of the land, and he said that it was worth between £6 million and £7·5 million. It may be worth even more if the board decides to sell the land to individual developers because it is a beautiful location and has the Campsies as a backdrop. I can find no other logical explanation for the stubborn way in which the board is proceeding with the proposals in spite of the damage that they are bound to cause to health care in my constituency.
Stoneyetts is the cheapest hospital to run in terms of mental health in Greater Glasgow or indeed in the whole of Scotland. The Scottish average weekly cost of a patient is £340 but in Stoneyetts the cost is £235. As the Minister may know, the hospital has 180 patients, whose ages range from 40 to 98, and they all suffer from mental or degenerative illness. I must pose the question that those patients, their friends and families, the staff of the hospital and the community ask. Where are those patients to be sent? We are told that some will go to Woodilee and some to Ruchill in Glasgow and some to Gartnavel on the other side of Glasgow. We have no means of knowing where the rest will go.
The board says that many of the patients have not come from the Moodiesburn area. That is true, but only 46 out

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of 180 come from the Ruchill and Gartnavel areas to which, we are told, many of them will be transferred. In any case, many of those people, after long years in that hospital, regard it as their home, their community.
I cannot understand why Ruchill is being considered as an appropriate location. As the board knows, I was there the other week, and I can see that there are security problems even with the new units. I can also see that the environment will cause difficulties if we want real community care. I take grave exception to the account of my visit that was apparently given to the board by a nursing officer when it was considering closure. I make it plain that, although I was impressed by the units, and take the view that they could serve very well purposes other than use in the mental illness sector, at no time did I express the view that that was a reasonable alternative to Stoneyetts or anywhere else. Nobody had the right to give the board that impression.
Over the years, the Greater Glasgow health board has had a strong view about Ruchill. For example, in a report, it said:
"The hospital, as becomes its name, is set on a hill. It is one of its defects in modern conditions … It is a serious disadvantage for elderly visitors."
It said that in 1975. Here we are in 1991 and the board is taking the view that Ruchill is a reasonable place for such patients to be sent. It is not, and we are entitled to a better explanation than we have so far received.
The new units at Gartnavel are set a mile and a half from the main hospital entrance and four miles from local amenities. Staff are very important, although I get the impression that the board is dismissing their views on any of these matters. They would have great difficulties in travelling from Moodiesburn and, in fairness, I should say that the board has conceded that single point. As with Ruchill, links between units for patients and the community will be virtually non-existent. If we are genuinely concerned about supporting patients, particularly with psychogeriatric and elderly patients in the mentally ill sector, the fact that buses do not run to Ruchill on Sundays from the Moodiesburn area is extremely important and should not be lightly dismissed.
I have often visited Stoneyetts, particularly in recent weeks. I know that many patients who know Ruchill and Gartnavel do not like the prospect of moving there. It may be acceptable for those who live in the area, and I do not contest the fact that there are modern facilities in the hospital. However, it is not all right to move people there from Lanarkshire and other distant parts and expect them to feel happy.
I am greatly worried about the consultation exercise that the board claims it undertook. I thought that it was a sham. I tried to make my contribution to getting the views of the communities when I arranged a well publicised public meeting in my constituency, in Moodiesburn. I invited the Minister, and I was sorry that he was not able to come. I invited the chairman of the Greater Glasgow health board, but he was not able to come either. Nevertheless, it was the biggest meeting that had ever been held in my constituency, and was widely representative of the churches, the community council, patients, families of patients and people in the community who are simply concerned about the future of the hospital.
In a secret ballot, those attending reached a unanimous view. Although I gave this information in writing to the
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board the following day, it is not recorded anywhere in its minutes. There was unanimous opposition to the closure of Stoneyetts and Birdston hospital in my constituency.
Despite the evidence that was given, the board dismissed the important issue of mortality rates after disruption. It said that the evidence on the matter was dubious or non-existent. That is an astonishing comment from a board that knows the story of Woodilee, which is next door to Stoneyetts. There was an evacuation in March 1987, and prior to that, 14 patients died every month. In 1987, 22 patients died in March and 27 in April. There is no doubt that there is evidence that disruption increases mortality rates. It has been found by several studies, including the Wandsworth district health authority's report of 1982, that the benefits of relocation cannot be offered without some increase in risk. A similar conclusion was reached by T. L. Coffman in 1981 in Gerontologist.
We have heard a great deal in recent days about citizens charters. I should like to know why the board did not take it upon itself to consult the most important group of people, the patients. Many of these people can vote in elections, but they were not consulted about their own future. Even the board had to record that there were 42 unsolicited letters from patients opposing the closure. These are people who are entitled to speak about their quality of life. Had advocacy existed—I understand that it is mentioned in passing in the citizens charter, and it was much in evidence in the Disabled Persons Act 1986—a great deal more would have been said.
The board has said that Stoneyetts is eccentrically located. It is not. As a result of new transport links, because of the Stepps and Cardowan railway station, because of improved local bus services, and above all because of the Stepps bypass, it is clear that there will be improvements.
I emphasise the importance of the community facilities that exist at Stoneyetts. I walked around them on Sunday afternoon. It was a beautiful day. Some of the patients were taking part in a barbecue. They were happy and relaxed in a beautiful setting. Given the alternative arrangements that might be made I do not know anywhere else in Greater Glasgow where that could be done. People were walking at leisure in the grounds beside the hospital. None of that is available in Ruchill or elsewhere. People in the Stoneyetts community and in the wider community—Stoneyetts is recognised as being part of our locality—see real friendship. In the mining community, the Auchewleogh miners club welcomes the patients and offers them facilities. The same is true of the Knights of St. Columbo club. There is peace and tranquility which is fitting for this sort of community care. Unfortunately, it is not always to be found elsewhere.
I know that the Minister will recall that, sadly—none of this reflects on him—even in his constituency there were some difficulties when it was suggested that people with learning difficulties might live in a particular place. I know that such placings raise difficult issues. I emphasise that the Stoneyetts patients are extremely welcome in the community and that the community would be saddened if things changed.
Willie Copeland, who is involved in nursing, said:
"They are not allowing us to be progressive. We do not want to stay in the 50s and 60s. The health board is starving us of funds."

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There is support for community care. Ricky MacManus, also someone working in nursing, said:
"Stoneyetts is basically well located. It is therapeutically inviting."
Jim Anderson, who is also involved in nursing, said: "This is their community." The fact is that community care is being taken from us.
The board argues that the hospital is in such a state that it must respond in the way that they have outlined. I am sure that the Minister will have the honesty to confirm that time after time I have drawn his attention, and that of the board, to the conditions that exist in Stoneyetts. I have asked for investment for refurbishment. During a previous debate on Woodilee and Stoneyetts, I said:
"I hope that the Minister will be convinced, and in due course will persuade the board, that there is still a need for both hospitals, a need to invest in those hospitals and a need to improve capital and revenue expenditure."—[Official Report, 29 January 1988; Vol. 145, c. 676.]
I am not too keen to listen to lectures on the rundown of the hospital. That was clearly a deliberate decision by the health board, so the responsibility lies with the health board. It is certainly not an excuse for closing the hospital, especially in the light of the overwhelming arguments for its retention.
I want to refer to the involvement of Strathclyde regional council. Is there any joint planning? Even the evidence offered by Professor Edwards was taken to be the view of the council, which had not discussed the matter. My regional councillor, Charles Grey, is opposed to the proposals, and he believes that there should be joint planning.
In view of the importance of these matters to my constituents, I ask the Minister to invite the Secretary of State to meet a delegation led by myself, and including people who work in the hospital and people from the wider community, so that he can listen to the views of those who know what they are talking about. Although the Minister could not attend the meeting that I held, I ask him to visit the hospital. I am sure that he would find it interesting. Before the Secretary of State makes a final decision—and the matter rests with him—in the interests of democracy the very least that we should expect is that he meets the delegation.
I want to refer to the health board's strategies for the mentally ill and mentally handicapped in Greater Glasgow. The present strategy was decided in 1987, and it was envisaged that it would be completed by 1993–94. Why is there to be a complete revision of the strategy in 1991? If the reason is not financial, what is it? If it is financial, we must be told the facts. We do not pretend that there are not constraints on the board, because there clearly are. I think that sometimes the board is too apologetic in representing views which are, presumably, those of the Government. It would be helpful if patients and the wider community in Greater Glasgow were told about the real problems with finance. They could then assess how fair the Government were being.
What is now happening has nothing to do with improved patient care, as I and many others envisage it. The Government say that they believe in voluntarism and that they depend upon the voluntary organisations in Scotland, but they seldom listen to their views. The Care in the Community group, the Scottish Society for the
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Mentally Handicapped, and many other organisations have to deal with the problems of the rundown in hospital provision, and in particular the closure of hospital beds.
My hon. Friend the Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) said recently:
"The board has described these changes as readjustments, whereas they are wholesale and sweeping reforms."
A study of the proposals shows us why we should not be surprised by my hon. Friend's conclusions. Currently, there are 2,886 beds for the mentally ill, but the board says that it needs only 1,300. That is a reduction of about 1,600 beds in Greater Glasgow—more than half the beds in use. Again, we must ask, and ask assertively, where those patients will go. On the assumption that other patients might have been admitted in the coming months and years, what will happen to them? The Greater Glasgow health board has been extremely vague on that, as on other issues, but today the Minister has a splendid opportunity to tell us a great deal more than we have already heard.
The changes are massive in their application and implementation and, as a result, we are entitled to ask what consultation has taken place. Strathclyde regional council, again with an immense social work concern, met the Greater Glasgow health board after the decision on the strategies was taken. What about the National Health Service (Amendment) Act 1986? Was not there something there about joint planning? Why, five years later, have the Government declined to introduce an important section of that Act, agreed without a Division in either House, which deals with the kind of joint planning which is absolutely essential if we are to deal with those important matters and to put patient care first?
We are told by the Greater Glasgow health board that hospitals or units within hospitals are to close or to be rundown. In Woodilee, again in my constituency next door to Stoneyetts, we are told that there is to be a reduction in beds from 576 to 180. In Gartloch, there is to be a reduction from 414 to 150. We shall see the complete closure of mental health units at the Southern General and Stobhill. In the mentally handicapped sector, there will be closures in Waverley Park, David Elder infirmary and the upper half of Lennox Castle, among other proposals. Those are pretty drastic reductions, certainly for the patients and their families.
In the absence of reasonable assessments for individual patients and in the absence of preparations to deal with the needs of patients before they leave hospital so that we know precisely where they are going, we must ask where the board thinks that they will go. There is nothing specific in the details that the board has given about arrangements for those patients or about the consultations with local authorities, the voluntary organisations, the advocates where they exist, or the patients themselves.
Such an exercise is gravely damaging to the whole concept of community care. The Minister will know that I must be one of the strongest supporters of community care. I want to see genuine care in the community. I would, of course, much prefer the Victorian hospitals to be part of our history, although there will always be a need for hospitals. Yes, I want to see people living in the community, properly supported by home help services, occupational therapy, meals on wheels and so on, and with that feeling of independence which is so important. Therefore, I know that the Minister will accept that my commitment to genuine community care is real and is

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something that I want to see. But I do not believe that what the Greater Glasgow health board is now doing represents that type of community care.
The Greater Glasgow health board says that there are three alternatives to existing arrangements when the beds have gone and the hospitals have closed. We are told that one is community care, as it sees it.
We are told that there are partnership agreements, such as that with Birdston hospital in Milton of Campsie in my constituency. We are entitled to know more about such agreements, because for the most part they have been untried, and our limited experience of them does not fill many of us with great confidence in terms of the provision of the best in patient care. Agreements between the board and the private sector seem to be reducing the role of Greater Glasgow health board, which does not seem unhappy at the prospect of changing its role from an enabler to a provider. I would like to hear the Minister's defence of that policy change, because it is not one endorsed by the majority of the people of Scotland—and never has been.
The fear is that, although people will be given an opportunity to provide, initially with low profit margins, fees will then mysteriously increase. I can predict a scenario in which the board will be held to ransom because it will be so difficult to make alternative arrangements. What is a local authority supposed to do once it finds that its role will be reduced from that of an enabler to a provider, in terms of dealing with the elderly?
With the move towards privatisation, competitive tendering and commercialism, with profit-making as the main incentive, local authorities will be asked to deal with the most difficult elderly patients. I cannot imagine that private entrepreneurs will go rushing in to care for people who are doubly incontinent or who suffer from other difficult conditions. I do not have much confidence in the board's proposals, and we should hear much more from the Minister today on that aspect.
My hon. Friend the Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden wrote to the chairman of Greater Glasgow health board on 24 July in respect of the board's three alternatives to current policy. He dealt with the third alternative by quoting from the board's own document, "Mental Health Strategy 4/":
"A rationalisation of short-stay beds by realigning catchment populations (to among other things take account of available capacity at the new Parkhead hospital) and gaining consistent performance in the use of the retained beds."
My hon. Friend rightly asked the board's chairman:
"What does this mean in ordinary language?"
I put the same question to the Minister now. People are entitled to the answer, because such decisions are extremely important to patients and the health service in Greater Glasgow. It is not enough for the Minister and his colleagues simply to impose conditions on the people of Greater Glasgow in the absence of consultation, and in the knowledge that in any reasonable consultation or secret ballot, the people of Greater Glasgow would not accept the board's proposals in a million years.
I ask the Minister to be more candid today than hitherto. He should display more candour than the health board and the Secretary of State, and this debate provides him with a splendid opportunity. My constituents are entitled to candour from the Minister, given that, for example, heart disease is a third higher among them than the national average. If we are told that is a reflection of
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the quality of life in my constituency, it seems unlikely that the health board's proposals will add to that quality of life. I do not believe that our history of unemployment, closures and the rest is helpful to that quality of life. Constituents, from every age group and in every part of my constituency, have suffered a great deal in the past 12 years. They have suffered closure after closure—a once proud mining and steel community does not have a job left in those industries and many other jobs have gone too. If, on top of that, it is now proposed that the national health service as we recognise it should be dismantled, I assure the Minister of State that, although I look forward to his reply, he can expect a long hot summer on health issues in Greater Glasgow because some of us will attack again and again, as we believe in preserving the very best of the national health service in our constituencies.
12.15 pm
The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Michael Forsyth): I am surprised at the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) and at some of his less than favourable comments about the Greater Glasgow health board. I can only assume that he has not yet had an opportunity to read the health board's annual report and has not seen the lists of major developments and innovations in health care for which that board is responsible. I shall mention only a few: the newly refurbished accident and emergency department at the Glasgow Royal infirmary, costing just over £1·5 million; the 180-bed development for elderly patients at Rutherglen; the refurbishment at Drumchapel costing £1·1 million; the installation of a new total body scanner at Yorkhill; the investment at the Western infirmary on the first of two linear accelerators at a cost of £1·8 million; and the announcement of a new heart transplant centre at the Glasgow Royal infirmary. There are many other examples of Greater Glasgow health board working for patients.
The health board is to be congratulated, not least for its innovative and progressive attitude towards identifying new ways to provide a better quality of health care, and its ideas—some of them quite new to the health service—such as the provision of a patients' hotel on the Western infirmary campus, which is an exciting concept and will release acute beds and provide a better environment for convalescent patients and those who do not require constant nursing or medical care.
For the hon. Member for Monklands, West to describe the best-funded health board in Scotland as underfunded takes one's breath away. He knows very well that resources are being transferred from the Greater Glasgow health board to other boards but that is because people have moved out of Glasgow into Ayrshire and the surrounding communities and the Government have built new hospitals, such as those in Paisley and Ayr, so that services are where the people are. Only a socialist would argue that services should be provided to meet the convenience of the NHS, which may be resistant to change, rather than to meet the needs of patients for whom the service is provided in the first place.
It is certainly true that Greater Glasgow health board is rationalising services and that that will affect a number of hospitals. I am clear, and I know that the hospital board is clear, that such changes are designed to consolidate and

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improve services provided to the community. The board's acute services strategy involves substantial investment—about £13 million—spread over several years.
The hon. Member referred to the fact that Greater Glasgow health board is studying the future organisation of its maternity units. The five units vary in quality and, given their age and the condition of some of them, a review was essential. Extensive consultations were held and they led the board to conclude that the change is needed sooner rather than later. The board has taken account of the needs of modern obstetric practice and of the standards that expectant mothers desire when they visit a maternity unit. I hope that it will soon be possible to announce a decision on the board's proposals.
The hon. Gentleman will have received a copy of the board's consultation document on proposals for the future organisation of community care in its area. The board makes some interesting points and suggestions. I am especially encouraged by the emphasis placed on health promotion. I know that the board is keen to have reaction and constructive comments, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will play his part in that consultation process.
The health board does not have a blinkered approach to health provision. It puts patients first. I welcome its initiative in taking advantage of spare capacity in the private sector. The hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith), the Opposition spokesman, attacked the health board because it chose to make a contract with a private hospital to ensure that more than 100 patients were given cardiac surgery who would otherwise have been put on the waiting list. It is an example of dogma being put before patient care when the Labour party attacks health boards which are doing everything within their resources to ensure that waiting lists are reduced.
As the hon. Gentleman said, the board's involvement with the private sector also extends to its arrangements for care of the elderly. Again its approach puts patients first. The board has decided on plans for four partnership developments with the private sector for provision of continuing care of the frail elderly and the elderly mentally ill. Two of the plans have already been identified at Rutherglen and Darnley, and patients will transfer towards the year end. As a result, elderly patients will be accommodated in state-of-the-art accommodation, and resources which are taken up in the acute sector at present will be released for further patient care. I regret to say that the board's progressive approach has met with condemnation by Opposition Members.
Further benefits to patients arise from the investment in patient care of all savings effected under the board's rigorous competitive tendering exercise—for which, again, the board has been criticised by Opposition Members. But that competitive tendering exercise has released some £11·5 million this year. Greater Glasgow health board has achieved savings which are about 40 per cent. of the total saved in Scotland as a result of that process.
The hon. Member for Monklands, West mentioned that the health board is conducting a review of mental handicap strategy. The board consulted on its strategy in 1987 and published a document in June 1988. It is that strategy which is under review. I look forward to seeing the board's further proposals in due course. There are many
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strands to the board's review of mental handicap and mental illness strategies, some of which will require separate and careful consideration.
The board has already consulted on the proposals that it has prepared for the closure of Stoneyetts hospital, which provides psychogeriatric care. Following its consultative exercise, the health board announced proposals on 16 July for the closure of the hospital. The board proposes that the psychogeriatric service be transferred to the two new purpose-built units at Ruchill hospital and Gartnavel Royal hospital. If approved, the proposal will represent a £4·5 million investment in the area by the board.
The new accommodation proposed for Ruchill and Gartnavel Royal will match the level of provision at Stoneyetts. There will be no reduction in the number of psychogeriatric beds as a result of the proposal. As I said earlier, the closure is subject to ministerial approval and as yet no formal submission has been made to me.
I have been made aware of the campaign in support of Stoneyetts hospital. The health board has taken account of all views lodged with it during the consultation exercise on the proposal affecting the hospital. Of course, comments were made in support of the board's view that Stoneyetts should close which the hon. Gentleman did not mention, most notably by the local health council and the board's professional advisory committees. The views of the hon. Gentleman were also taken into account, as was the 8,000-signature petition lodged in support of retention.
The board has emphasised that it is its principal intention to establish the individual needs and wishes of the patients and, wherever possible, those will be taken into account when decisions are made on placements. I am sure that, if the decision is taken to transfer Stoneyetts patients, the board will honour its commitment to deal with the transfer of patients with sensitivity, care and consideration. All staff at Stoneyetts will be offered alternative employment with the board. It is hoped that the majority will transfer with the patients to the new units at Gartnavel and Ruchill. I assure the hon. Gentleman that, once I receive the board's formal application, I shall consider it very carefully.
The hon. Member for Monklands, West disappoints me and doubtless disappoints the relatives of the patients at Stoneyetts hospital. I am aware, for example, that the board, having quite properly sought the views of relatives, was encouraged that 70 per cent. of those who responded were fully in favour of the move to Gartnavel and Ruchill.
Clearly, the hon. Gentleman is not speaking on behalf of the local health council, the professional advisory committees, the patients or their relatives. It is absurd that he is arguing that elderly people should be placed in old-fashioned, sub-standard accommodation, rather than encouraging the board in its efforts to provide modern, purpose-built, easily accessible facilities which will give patients the benefit of more pleasant surroundings and a better quality of life.
The hon. Gentleman's argument in favour of Stoneyetts hospital was that it was the cheapest hospital to run. The Government are interested not in cheapness but in quality of care and value for money.
I have heard and read the hon. Gentleman's empty allegations that the board's proposals are financially motivated. He would do well to accept that the board is reacting to patients' needs and to the fact that Stoneyetts accommodation is now proving sub-standard compared

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with what can and should be provided for those patients. If approved, this proposal will represent a commitment of some £4·5 million—hardly the action of a board starved of resources, more an investment in patient care.
Greater Glasgow health board recognises the need to look beyond its geographical boundary where appropriate for specialist treatment of patients from Glasgow. We have seen that in their commitments to brain injury rehabilitation at Wishaw.
Greater Glasgow health board, as with all 15 health boards in Scotland, is for the first time setting targets for waiting time within which patients will be expected to obtain treatment. This initiative is designed to cut hospital waiting times and follows up proposals in the Government's citizens charter programme. The Initiative will make a comprehensive improvement in waiting times. I am sure that patients will welcome that move. They have every right to know how long they can expect to wait for treatment. The Government intend to give them that right, no matter where in Scotland they live.
Waiting times at present are affected in no small part by the fact that, since 1979, the number of referrals has increased by over 21 per cent.; the number of in-patients treated has increased by over 22 per cent. and day cases by a staggering 147 per cent. Indeed, for Greater Glasgow health board, the increase in day cases is an incredible 205 per cent. Waiting lists have fallen by 14 per cent. over the same period, and we continue to look for improvements.
The Citizens Charter will have a direct bearing on the patients served by the Greater Glasgow health board. Patients and relatives will know exactly what they can expect of the national health service and what the board must do to meet those expectations. Patients will know exactly what they are entitled to and the service standards to be met. Patients charters will be in all hospitals and other units, and Greater Glasgow health board has led the United Kingdom in taking that idea forward. Targets are being set on waiting times for admission for treatments. The Greater Glasgow health board, like all other health boards, will have to give guarantees on maximum waiting times.
In the teeth of opposition, Greater Glasgow health board has proved to be innovative. I regret to say that Opposition Members, including the hon. Member for Monklands, West, sometimes appear to be spokesmen for COHSE and NUPE rather than representatives of patients' interests. The proposals in respect of Stoneyetts are an example of a board innovatively tackling difficult problems and providing a quality of care which previous Labour Governments could only dream of.

BAA plc (MMC Review)
12.29 pm
Mr. Anthony Steen: It is fitting that, before we go into the recess, we should discuss airports and airlines and I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for giving me the chance to talk about the British Airports Authority.
When the Government privatised BAA, they were breaking fresh ground. No one had any idea of the impact that the privatisation would have on aviation. Five years on, the Monopolies and Mergers Commission has taken a look at the way in which the BAA has operated and has made recommendations to the Civil Aviation Authority, the regulatory body.
Hon. Members who were in the House in 1985—I cannot see too many of them here today—will remember that at the time of the privatisation of the BAA I warned that privatising all the London airports in one unit was fraught with danger and likely to prove anti-competitive. I am afraid that that has happened. The MMC report recognises the advantages that have accrued to BAA shareholders—the pension funds and others—but it has also drawn attention to the fact that BAA is being run somewhat anti-competitively. Airport charges, landing fees, passenger fees and parking fees have been grossed up and the charges have been passed on to the airlines. These charges have been set at the whim of the management, so discriminatory practices have crept in.
The smaller domestic, regional and British airlines have suffered from discrimination. The landing fee at Heathrow has risen by 107 per cent. in the past five years and has been applied regardless of the size of the plane. A 50-seater plane—shall we say, a Brymon plane to Plymouth—will be charged the same as a 400-seater jumbo landing from New York. A 146 plane belonging to Manx Airlines with 85 seats will also pay the same as a 400-seater jumbo.
It might be appropriate to declare an interest. I fly Brymon Airways most weekends down to my constituency and I help Manx Airlines, which is part of the Airlines of Britain group, to which I am an adviser.
I have complained not only about landing fees but about parking fees. Landing fees have risen for smaller airlines and declined for jumbos; parking charges have fallen for jumbos and increased for smaller airlines. So small regional airlines flying short-haul planes to and from Europe or around Britain pay far more each time they land and park at Heathrow than would a jumbo that sits on the tarmac for 12 to 24 hours having deposited 400 people at a terminal. That is discrimination against people and airlines wanting to fly around Britain or Europe; and it is positive discrimination in favour of those who want to fly long-haul to and from the United States, India or the far east.
It seems as though BAA welcomes the maximum use of each slot, and I understand that, but we cannot have the whole of Heathrow full of jumbos. That would not be possible even if it were desirable.
At present, 70 per cent. of traffic at Heathrow is short-haul and only 30 per cent. is long-haul. The reason is simple: every jumbo that takes off must be fed by the small, short-haul airlines. That is recognised by Schiphol airport in Holland, which is making considerable strides in attracting regional airlines from all over Europe to deposit passengers, not at Heathrow but at Schiphol, attract the

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long-haul carriers into Schiphol and send them out across the Atlantic and elsewhere. In order to have a prosperous long-haul industry, one needs feeder aircraft. I am concerned that BAA's policy of trying to get more and more long-haul aircraft and fewer short-haul aircraft through a discriminatory pricing policy means that, in the long term, Heathrow could cease to be the No. 1 airport in the world.
A privatised public utility with a total monopoly hold is starting to price out smaller aeroplanes from Heathrow. How much longer can Brymon Airways or Manx Airlines continue to offer a service? How long can Brymon fly from Heathrow to Plymouth for £195 return—more than the apex fare to Gibraltar, Barcelona or Milan?
The Monopolies and Mergers Commission report must be welcomed, as it recognises that the formula that the Government adopted in 1985, called RPI minus one—the retail prices index minus 1 per cent.—was not strenuous enough and worked largely against the British-owned airline industry. The Monopolies and Mergers Commission said that BAA has been an amazingly successful money machine, which had been good for shareholders, pension funds, big institutions and large airlines with large aeroplanes. Clearly, regional and short-haul airlines are the losers and, even more so, the travelling public—the consumer. As charges go up for the short-haul lines, so the price of tickets reflects that, and increases.
The MMC suggested that the formula of RPI minus one should be changed to RPI minus four. The retail prices index minus 4 per cent. would be the maximum that BAA could charge over the next five years for landing, parking and so on. I believe that the MMC got it right, but the CAA—to which it reports—has an ever better suggestion. It suggested that the profits were still too great when based on the RPI minus four formula, which should be changed to RPI minus eight.
I pay tribute to the new chairman of the CAA—Christopher Chataway. I am delighted—as I am sure the whole House will be—that he has come back to public life; it was an enlightened decision to suggest that he should be chairman of that regulatory organisation.
The CAA's public decision to recommend that an RPI minus eight formula be applied to the running costs at BAA's airports is an enlighted and courageous move.
Mr. David Wilshire: Before my hon. Friend's enthusiasm for the CAA report runs away with him, will he comment on some inconsistencies in it? The report states that BAA should raise its charges by less than inflation, but the CAA increased charges by 45 per cent. The report says that BAA is a low-risk business and needs only a 7 per cent. return, while the CAA wants an 8 per cent. return. The report says that the MMC is wrong and the people who brought out the report are not financial experts. The report claims to be a CAA report, yet I am told that just two CAA employees will make the final decision. Instead of enthusing about the report, will my hon. Friend accept that it is flawed and written by people whose philosophy is, "Do as we say, not as we do."
Mr. Steen: I always enjoy commenting on my hon. Friend's remarks, but on this occasion I shall pass because he has made his points and I do not wish to be drawn on them.
Whatever the formula—I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) will wish to listen to this carefully—what is crucial is not how much the landing fees, passenger fees or parking fees may be, but how BAA applies them to individual airlines. The question is whether it is able to discriminate, as it has in the past five years, in favour of larger airlines and larger planes to the detriment of our smaller airlines which use smaller planes. There is nothing to stop BAA continuing to discount the total landing, passenger and parking fees by the percentage prescribed in the formula and applying it to the individual carrier as it pleases. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister realises that that is the critical issue. It does not matter whether the restrictions are greater or fewer. The application of the formula by BAA should be the same for all airlines and should not discriminate against our smaller British airlines.
The trouble with the privatisation is not that it has been too successful, but that its success has allowed restrictive practices that discriminate against those who want to fly in Britain or around Europe. It is an anti-competitive practice to try to drive airlines away from Heathrow and towards Gatwick or Stansted where they may not want to go and where the consumer definitely does not yet want to go. It is not fair competition.
There are two points. First, there is the formula about which my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne spoke with great gusto, as is his norm since he feels that an injustice has been done and the CAA has got it wrong. Secondly, there is the way in which the formula is applied.
Oddly enough, the MMC report and the Civil Aviation Authority report—whether it was prepared by two men or 200—have ducked the key issue. Paragraph 18 of the CAA report says:
"The CAA agrees with the MMC that this highly important issue of aviation policy can only be dealt with properly in a wider context, and that they are not able to comment on whether a limit should be placed on the airport's scope to rebalance charges."
That is a total cop-out and it can be dealt with only by the Government. That is why I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Minister in his place. I am sure that he will wish to get to the root of the problem. It strikes at the basis of Government aviation policy as to charging, discrimination and the power of the airports authority, though a pricing mechanism, to direct where airlines should fly. The argument is not about numbers and percentages—RPI minus six, eight or 10—but about fair competition and achieving a marketplace where smaller carriers operating smaller short-haul planes do not find themselves priced out and disadvantaged by a private monopoly that used to be in the public sector. It is about the Government halting the discriminatory practices of the BAA which favour large carriers and wide-bodied planes.
Will the Minister make it clear that BAA will not be allowed to cock a snook at the Government's approach to the aviation industry, that it will not be allowed to prejudice short-haul aircraft, and that they will be put on a level footing with long-haul aircraft?
As the Minister knows, we are all consumers. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made that clear on Monday, when he announced the citizens charter which

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recognised the right of citizens to be protected against the sort of practices that I have described. When I asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether his charter would extend to the aviation industry he said that it probably would not. However, he said nothing about airports.
I invite my hon. Friend the Minister to realise that I am talking about the pricing mechanism of the airports authority and citizens' right of protection from that practice rather than the operation of individual airlines, where there is opportunity for competition. Why should not the consumer have a cheap and efficient service to regional and European destinations? Why should he have to pay extra if he flies to an EC country rather than to the United States or to the far east?
It is clear that, whatever formula BAA has to accept, it will lose some income. It must not be allowed to try to recoup its losses from the travelling public or from airline operators. The trouble is that it believes that it will be given a licence to print money indefinitely. It is now horror-stricken that that may not be true. It has threatened that the projected loss of income will lead to all sorts of disasters and has hinted that it may no longer be able to build the fifth London terminal and that the Paddington to Heathrow rail link will be seriously delayed.
That is scaremongering. It is a bit thick for the authority to whinge when it has spent £300 million on an improvement programme at Stanstead. That was its commercial judgment. Despite the fact that passenger traffic hardly justified it, that was its decision; it had nothing to do with the Government. Such expenditure was a question for the management, who decided to spend that money when they could have spent it on Heathrow, which desperately needs it. It was as though the authority were building a monument to itself, just as Brunel built the great western railway. It took a commercial decision and should not expect too much sympathy when it finds itself short of a few bob.
BAA is not the first private company to find itself in need of some extra finance. Unlike other private companies, its monopoly position enables it to make good its losses by clobbering the travelling public. I do not think that that should be allowed. I am sure that it will not be allowed, because we are extremely fortunate to have not only a new chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority but a new management team under the direction of Sir John Egan, whose track record is well known. I am sure that if the enthusiasm that he showed at Jaguar is converted to airport strategy, it will be an exciting time for us all. I wish him well.
I venture to make a few suggestions which I hope will help Sir John Egan when he is considering how to raise sufficient finance. As a private company, there is nothing to stop BAA going to the stock market for extra funds through a rights issue. There is no reason why its manpower should not be reduced; a leaner authority would surely be cost-effective. Could not the number of landing slots be increased so that more traffic could use Heathrow? In 1985, it said that 275,000 movements was the maximum, but today the figure has risen to 385,000. There is additional space, and if the air traffic controllers could be freed of some of the restrictive trade union practices, more planes could land, which would generate more income for the BAA.
Why does not the BAA consider selling an airport or two? It has enough airports. Surely it could do without,
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say, Prestwick. The fact that three London airports are under the same management has militated against competition. Why not sell off Gatwick and Stansted? Bringing a new player into the market would stop restrictive practices, and the market would drive down overheads. Consumers and airlines would benefit, but possibly not the shareholders of the authority, although with the cash realised it could build the Paddington to Heathrow link and begin the fifth London terminal.
When BAA was privatised in 1986, the Government were moving in uncharted waters. The fact that the authority has been such a success clearly shows that the Government were right, but several lessons have been learnt in the five years since it was privatised.
The most important point is that private monopolies can be as anti-competitive as public ones. The regulatory authority, in this case the CAA, can and should ensure that the regulations and formulae prevent that from happening. It is not a question of the Opposition saying, "I told you so," but of the Government recognising the new problems that have arisen as a result of our imaginative privatisation proposals and introducing the necessary safeguards so that our short-haul airlines in Europe and our regional airlines throughout the country are not driven out of Heathrow by the pricing mechanism.
Freed of any pricing regulations, BAA would without doubt feel obliged to obtain the maximum revenue for its institutional shareholders. The job of the House is to ensure fair play— to ensure that this privatised company is subject to the rules of fair competition that regulate the rest of the private sector.
Our airline industry is far more frail than it was five years ago. Airlines are going bust, but airports are not. We must make sure that our airport authority helps our airline industry and assists the British companies that fly round our shores and into Europe. That is where our future lies, and the Government's job is to ensure that a healthy airline industry is not destroyed through predatory pricing and discriminatory practices.
12.50 pm
The Minister for Shipping and Public Transport (Mr. Patrick McLoughlin): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) on his success in raising this issue. It is some time since the House debated aviation and, as usual, when it is debated we hear different views from my hon. Friends about the right way to go forward. My hon. Friends the Member for South Hams and for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) and I are convinced of the need for a good, healthy aviation industry. It is important that that industry should not deteriorate in some of the ways suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams.
First, I shall outline the arrangements for the regulation of BAA's airports and the involvement of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. The mechanics of the system are rather different from those which apply in other regulated industries. Because of that, and because the present review of BAA's London airports is only the second time that these arrangements have come into play, the system is perhaps not widely or well understood.
I recognise that the provisions in this part of the Airports Act 1986 appear somewhat complex and certainly do not make for easy reading. For that reason,

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too, I take this chance to explain briefly the nature of the regulatory process before returning to the specific points that my hon. Friend made.
A system of economic regulation of all sizeable airports was established by the Airports Act, before the privatisation of the former British Airports Authority. Privatisation has allowed BAA's managers to get on with the job of managing, has ensured a large and continuing programme of investment and has brought many benefits to the air traveller. Heathrow remains the world's leading international airport and, as my hon. Friend said, we want it to retain that position. Gatwick airport is not far behind.
When the Government privatised BAA, they were conscious of the need to guard against the risk of exploitation of the natural strength of airports which found themselves in a largely monopolistic position. The present regulatory regime is the result.
The first tier of regulation, which applies to all airports above the certain maximum turnover, is exercised primarily by the Civil Aviation Authority and has to do with preventing trading or pricing policies which discriminate unreasonably against particular airport users, or against the holders of rights or concessions at an airport. It also enables the CAA to act against the fixing of airport charges at artificially low levels, which would be harmful to another airport's business.
A second and still more stringent tier of regulation, and the one with which we are concerned today, is applied at the more powerful airports: specifically at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, and also at Manchester. It provides for the CAA to set a limit on increases in airport charges. Since 1987, when the system was introduced, that limit has been expressed in terms of a formula which relates permitted increases in
"average annual revenue per passenger",
to movements in the retail prices index. The present price-cap formula covering the three BAA London airports limits increases to RPI minus 1 per cent.
The 1986 Act provides for the price cap formula to be reviewed every five years and for the CAA then to establish a new formula for the coming five-year period, having first taken the advice of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. That extensive report was presented to the CAA not long ago. The present formula for the BAA airports expires at the end of March 1992.
Last December, therefore, the CAA referred the three BAA airports to the MMC, with a request for advice in two areas. First, the MMC was asked for advice on the price cap that should apply for the coming five years. Secondly, the MMC was asked to report whether the airports have pursued, through their airport charges or through their operational activities, any course of conduct adverse to the public interests and, if so, to advise how this might be remedied.
Over the past six months, the MMC has reviewed substantially the entire business of the three airports, and in doing so has taken evidence from a wide range of bodies and organisations, including, of course, BAA itself. My Department was among those which put views to the Commission, as those who have read the report will know.
The main findings of the report were that from April, increases in airport charges at Heathrow and Gatwick, and at the three BAA airports taken together, should be limited by the formula RPI minus 4 per cent.; but that in
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the event that BAA started building a fifth terminal at Heathrow in 1995–96, the formula in respect of Heathrow should be amended to RPI plus 1 per cent., and that for the three airports together amended to RPI minus 1 per cent. The commission also identified a weakness in BAA's arrangements for consulting users about charges for certain of its facilities and it has recommended measures to remedy this.
The commission's third main recommendation was that the regulatory formula should be amended as and when necessary, to compensate BAA for the effects of the abolition, of duty-free and tax-free sales, and for any changes that might be required in connection with frontier controls post-1992. Finally, the commission recommended an increase in the proportion of costs arising from new security measures which may be recovered through the charging formula, and a reduction in the recovery period.
Let me say a word now about what happens next. The determination of the price formula which will apply from April is a matter for the CAA, which must have regard to the commission's advice but is not bound to follow it. The authority has published its proposals for a new regulatory regime and these are the subject of consultation. The authority has included in its proposals a draft condition to tackle the shortcoming in BAA's consultative arrangements—a shortcoming that BAA itself has acknowledged. My hon. Friend went over the points relating to the fact that the CAA was recommending RPI minus 8 per cent.
In a short debate such as this, the arithmetic may be a little complex, so I shall move on to some of the other points made by my hon. Friend. He asked whether it was possible for BAA to sell a London airport to raise funds. Under the special share arrangements, BAA could not dispose of any of its three London aiports without the permission of the Secretary of State. The special share in BAA was taken by the Government for reasons of national interest. I have no reason to believe that BAA is considering the course that my hon. Friend suggested. If it were to propose to sell one of its London airports, the Government would need to take a view on the matter at the time such a proposal was made.
The merits of separate ownership of the London airports were, of course, discussed at the time of privatisation, when some argued for splitting them up. The Government took the view then that this would not in practice be beneficial, because it would be unlikely either to bring real competition—given Heathrow's natural dominance—or to remove the need for new airport regulation.
Mr. Steen: What about the charging of smaller airlines, which discriminates against them landing and parking as compared with long-haul flights?
Mr. McLoughlin: I realise that both my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams and my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris), who is also here, take this point seriously. It is in the interests of both BAA and the country to have a multi-airline industry. The important point that my hon. Friend made about the need for regional services to and from our major international airports is not lost on me or my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. We know that there is concern that charges make access difficult for carriers on the domestic routes.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has said that he would consider it unacceptable if airports,

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through their charging policies, abused their position or exploited their users. He has referred to legislative safeguards against unreasonably discriminatory pricing. There is a mechanism that enables airlines to appeal to the CAA. The CAA has produced recommendations following the MMC's report. They will have to be considered before any decision can be made on the next step.
I have tried to answer as many question as possible in the time available to me. We could talk for much longer within the framework of a proper aviation debate, because I am fully aware of the great interest that my hon. Friends, at least, take in these matters.
Mr. William Cash: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. A decision has been taken today by the Luxembourg court that affects the sovereignty of the House and the manner in which the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 should be implemented. We respect the rulings of the court but its findings recently have suggested that Acts of this Parliament are significantly at risk. There is no doubt that in the treaty that is about to be proposed there arises serious doubt about whether the competence of the House will continue in the way that it has in the past. It is of grave importance that we ensure that the competences and privileges of the House are maintained and that, by one means or another, we ensure that we maintain our sovereignty in the House on behalf of the entire electorate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): The hon. Member will recognise that, notwithstanding the seriousness of the matter that he has raised, it is not one for me.
Mr. David Harris: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Given the importance——
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Member will be brief. Points of order will eat into private Members' time.
Mr. Harris: Given the importance of the European Court's decision, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is there any chance, even at this late stage, of a Minister making a brief statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member's remarks will have been heard——
Mr. Dennis Skinner rose——
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member's remarks will have been heard by the occupants of the Treasury Bench.

Royal Assent
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and measures:—

Finance Act 1991

Appropriation Act 1991

Agriculture and Forestry (Financial Provisions) Act 1991

Planning and Compensation Act 1991

Badgers (Further Protection) Act 1991

Badgers Act 1991

Smoke Detectors Act 1991

Medical Qualifications (Amendment) Act 1991

Wildlife and Countryside (Amendment) Act 1991

Road Traffic Act 1991

Arms Control and Disarmament (Inspections) Act 1991—[Interruption.]

Order. The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is interrupting my reading of the list.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) asked me what my "ministerial" statement was all about, and I told him.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I think that I got as far as the Arms Control and Disarmament (Inspections) Act 1991. I shall continue:

Social Security (Contributions) Act 1991

Forestry Act 1991

Foreign Corporations Act 1991

Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991

Atomic Weapons Establishment Act 1991

Mental Health (Detention) (Scotland) Act 1991

Child Support Act 1991

School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1991

Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991

Local Government Finance and Valuation Act 1991

Ports Act 1991

Criminal Justice Act 1991

Deer Act 1991

Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act 1991

Water Industry Act 1991

Water Resources Act 1991

Statutory Water Companies Act 1991

Land Drainage Act 1991

Water Consolidation (Consequential Provisions) Act 1991

Statute Law Revision (Isle of Man) Act 1991

Armed Forces Act 1991

British Railways Board (Finance) Act 1991

Breeding of Dogs Act 1991

Dangerous Dogs Act 1991

Highland Regional Council (Harbours) Order Confirmation Act 1991

London Local Authorities Act 1991

North Yorkshire County Council Act 1991

Brighton Marine Palace and Pier Act 1991

Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Measure 1991

Diocesan Boards of Education Measure 1991

West Glamorgan (Funding)
1.3 pm
Mr. Peter Hain: I commend you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on your stamina and energy.
I begin by welcoming the Minister of State, Welsh Office, back to the House after his short illness. I am sure that we are all pleased to see him.
West Glamorgan's net revenue budget for the current year is £242 million. Education accounts for £138 million, social services £28 million, and environment and highways £15 million. The county is renowned for providing nursery education for 90 per cent. of three-year-olds. It is also famed for its provision of music and drama in schools.
Although it has a reputation for financial prudence, the county is running into a brick wall with the Government's restrictions and cuts in spending. Next year it needs to spend an additional £11·1 million—6 per cent. real growth—just to meet the additional statutory obligations that the Government have placed upon it. They are not optional spending measures; they are requirements under the Government's legislation and directives.
The demographic changes resulting from school rolls beginning to rise again, together with a continuing increase in student participation in higher education, will account for an additional £1·5 million spending. National curriculum support measures will require an additional £500,000. Local management of schools and colleges, the provision of computer systems, extra administrative support, and training for staff and governors will require an additional £400,000. Special educational needs provision under the Education Act 1981—it is not discretionary—will require an additional £500,000. Maintenance of school buildings will require an additional £1·5 million, for which the authority has budgeted, against a £20 million backlog. In social services, the Children Act 1989 requires additional support for families, principally through increased preventative and assessment responsibilities for children at risk, and that will require an additional £500,000.
The community care that the Government have unceremoniously dumped on local authorities such as West Glamorgan, social care planning, assessment and case management will require an additional £700,000. Mental handicap and mental illness provision will require an additional £300,000, again under pressure from the Welsh Office. Training and staff development, the introduction of professional qualifications and management development for community care responsibilities will require an additional £200,000. On top of all that, the authority must spend an additional £5 million on upgrading highways and improving the environment to meet basic safety and maintenance obligations. Those are obligations that the authority must meet—it has no discretion—on top of the extra 6 per cent. that it needs to spend next year.
If there is no relative change in the standard spending assessments between Welsh counties, Tuesday's statement by the Secretary of State will mean that there will be an increased provision for West Glamorgan of only 6 per cent. on its current budget. Of that 6 per cent., 1 per cent. has already been committed by the full-year effects of this year's staff pay, principally teaching staff, working its way through. Some 4·5 per cent. has been assumed by the Secretary of State to cover pay and price rises. Therefore,
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5·5 per cent. of that 6 per cent. has already been swallowed up, leaving only 0·5 per cent. to cover any additional award above 4·5 per cent. by the teachers' pay review body.
The increase will be eaten up without any scope for essential and additional expansion of the sort which I have described and which is required by the Government. To meet that additional £11 million expansion in provision, most of it statutorily required, there will have to be a cut in spending on other services of about 6 per cent., which will mean cuts in teaching staff, larger class sizes and reductions in social services. That is already happening. Indeed, primary schools in the Neath area have suffered cuts in teaching staff and classes have had to be merged, resulting in larger class numbers.
Welsh Office Ministers, sitting in their ivory tower, seem oblivious to the savage impact of their policies on local communities such as those in West Glamorgan. One group who are affected are the elderly. There are 74,000 pensioners in West Glamorgan, many of whom depend on income support. Some of them suffered disgraceful cuts in the benefits that they received in April this year when retirement pensions for the over-75s and disabled pensioners were increased by 10·8 per cent. whereas income support was increased by just 8 per cent. That meant that those receiving income support lost access to benefits and rebates. Some of the most vulnerable sections of our elderly population suffered an additional cut in that way.
Many of the 74,000 West Glamorgan pensioners have small additional private or widows' pensions to supplement their retirement pensions and that group is often hit the hardest by the present situation. What the Government give with one hand they take away with the other in tax increases and loss of benefits.
Many pensioners in the Neath constituency and throughout West Glamorgan are without cars. Many live in valley villages and rely on bus transport which, even with the West Glamorgan concessionary fares scheme, they find costly. For example, a pensioner making a return trip from Ystalyfera to Swansea has to pay £2·20 and from Seven Sisters to Neath, £1·65. Such sums may seem small to the Minister on his salary, but, repeated day after day, they eat into the income of our elderly citizens, especially as they face exorbitant water charges, a colour television licence fee of £77, standing charges on all the main services of telecommunications, electricity, gas and so on, on top of high heating charges for electricity, gas and coal, and, in addition, the continuously rising cost of living.
That is why I believe that pensioners would be enormously boosted by a new free fares system in West Glamorgan. That would be an imaginative targeted measure which would directly assist some of the most vulnerable members of our community. It could transform the lives of elderly people living in West Glamorgan and have a liberating effect on them. It would not just give relief to our elderly citizens, some of whom are living on the poverty line; it would also enhance their quality of life and so ensure that they would be less of a burden on the state as they grew into old age.
In fact, the Government would save money by such a measure. If they did their accounting in terms of social costs and benefits, rather then with the tunnel vision of their profit and loss balance sheets in which people do not figure, they would find that even injecting the additional funding needed to provide a free fares scheme they would

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end up spending less money by having healthier citizens who were more at one with themselves, enjoying a better quality of life.
The existing West Glamorgan concessionary fares scheme commenced on 26 October 1986 and provides for a one third cut in bus fares. Under the Transport Act 1985, bus operators working the scheme may not make a profit from the concessionary fares available to them and reimbursement must come wholly out of local authority budgets. The problem is that, under current Welsh Office guidelines and spending targets, no flexibility is offered to local authorities. They do not have the flexibility to provide that additional service either in terms of free fares for pensioners on the buses or in their spending commitments.
The cost of the present concessionary fares scheme is just £0·8 million, so a free fares scheme would cost an additional £1·6 million—not very much. if West Glamorgan county council, Neath borough council, Swansea city council, Lliw borough council and Port Talbot borough council came to the Welsh Office with a specific request for funding for that additional £1·6 million, would the Minister agree to it? That is the question that I wish to put to him today.
Why should Neath pensioners, and pensioners throughout West Glamorgan, be deprived of a basic right enjoyed by many other pensioners in our society? According to a report published in 1988 by the transport and road research laboratory, 22 per cent. of the concessionary transport schemes available in Great Britain are free-fare schemes. Most are in metropolitan areas such as London, South Yorkshire and the west midlands. Many operate outside the rush hours, after 9.30 am or during the weekend. Millions of senior citizens throughout Britain can travel on the bus or the underground free of charge, but none of them is in Wales.
The Welsh Office should hang its head in shame. Why cannot the Government show some compassion and generosity for once and provide the funding necessary for Welsh local authorities which wish to do so to transform their present concessionary fare schemes into free-fare schemes? That will also have the benefit of improving revenues for the bus operators who at present, after deregulation, at times offer, particularly to residents in the valley villages, a shoddy service which runs out late at night and is very weak during the weekend. The additional revenue generated by carrying those extra passengers, although all the finance would be returned to the county, would make for a more effective service.
It is no use the Minister saying that it is up to local authority discretion whether West Glamorgan or any other Welsh authority spends part of its budget on a free-fare scheme. The fact is that their hands are tied by highly restrictive and in some cases punitive Welsh Office spending guidelines. Virtually all local authority spending in Wales, as elsewhere in the country, is centrally controlled—and tightly at that. Authorities do not have the discretion to operate such a scheme.
My simple and specific proposal could greatly enhance the quality of life for some of our poorest citizens, who have given their working lives to their communities but are now forgotten or ignored by the consumerist, materialistic, me-first culture in which the Government glory. I urge the Minister to respond positively to my proposal, and to provide the funding necessary to West Glamorgan and the boroughs within it, so that they may establish a free-fare
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scheme as soon as possible. In that way, our senior citizens could enjoy transport in reasonable comfort at a pace that suits them so that they might take advantage of the opportunities otherwise denied to them.
1.17 pm
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts): I congratulate the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) on his success in raising the question of Welsh Office funding for West Glamorgan. His speech focused on local authority spending. On Tuesday, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales announced a provisional local government finance settlement for 1992–93 that proposed a level of total standard spending in Wales of £2,639 million. That is an increase of £206 million, or 8·5 per cent. on 1991–92, and is the appropriate level of spending for the coming year, taking account of all relevant considerations. My right hon. Friend also proposed a level of aggregate external finance of about £2,383 million—an increase of 6·7 per cent. on the current year.
The settlement must be seen in the context of the Government's success in bringing down inflation. It is a realistic settlement, and one that provides local authorities in Wales with a firm foundation on which to budget prudently for the coming year. It builds on the settlement for the current year, which increased total standard spending by 8 per cent. on budgets, and increased aggregate external finance by 11·2 per cent.
The level of expenditure per Welsh charge payer for which the settlement allows is £1,207. If local authorities budget in line with our plans for 1992–93, charge payers should, on average, contribute just £118 per head of that through the community charge, before taking into account various benefits and relief. The settlement for the current year, 1991–92, provided for an increase of more than £31 million in West Glamorgan county council's standard spending assessment to £263·5 million; a rise of 15·1 per cent. on the level for 1990–91. That was the highest percentage increase in Wales, bar one county—Gwent—and represents an increase of almost 7 per cent. on the unnecessarily high budget set by the authority for 1990–91, which was £14 million over SSA. That decision resulted in a community charge for standard spending of £28 more than would have been necessary if the authority had spent in line with the Government's plans, and that placed an unnecessary burden on its charge payers.
This year, the authority is receiving an increase in grant support towards its expenditure of £18·5 million. Again, that is the second highest percentage increase in Wales. Charge payers in the county have also benefited directly from the £140 reduction in community charge liability which was announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in his Budget. The aggregate increase in standard spending assessments for 1991–92 over 1990–91 for the four district councils within West Glamorgan is £8·9 million, a rise of 20·7 per cent. The aggregate increase in grant for those authorities in support of that spending is £5·9 million, which represents a rise of 16·7 per cent. over 1990–91. The increase in SSA for the hon. Gentleman's constituency is 16·6 per cent. over 1990–91, despite a slight decrease in population.
While Port Talbot, Lliw Valley and Neath set community charges in line with the settlement, it is unfortunate that Swansea city council chose to budget for

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a charge of £57, no less than 52 per cent. above the settlement level of £38. That placed a quite unnecessary burden on its charge payers.
The levels of expenditure and support that I have just described were sufficient to enable the authorities concerned to meet both inflationary and service pressures in providing an appropriate level of service. The provisional settlement announced by my right hon. Friend on Tuesday will build on the foundation that has been laid.
It would not be appropriate or possible to consider how the proposed settlement for 1992–93 will affect individual local authorities. My Department and the local authority associations in Wales are considering the grant distribution arrangements for the coming year and will make recommendations to the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance in due course. With the exception of certain specific and supplementary grants towards current expenditure, Government support towards local government spending in Wales under the settlement is unhypothecated. That means that, while the Government provide the appropriate level of resources, it is for individual authorities to make their own expenditure decisions in the light of their assessment of local expenditure requirements and priorities. That is entirely appropriate and accords with the wishes of the local authorities. It is against that background that the funding of specific services such as those mentioned by the hon. Gentleman must be considered.
The hon. Member for Neath talked at some length about the position of the elderly and, in particular, about their travel arrangements. I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about the mobility of our senior citizens and I note his view that they should be allowed to travel free of charge on local buses. Of course, the Transport Act 1985 gives local authorities powers to fund travel concession schemes for various groups of people, including persons of pensionable age. The local authority may determine the nature of the concession and its level.
It is right that this is a matter for local authorities as they are in the best position to determine the type of concession which best suits the needs of their areas. Costs are an important factor in this. In West Glamorgan, for example, senior citizens may apply for a pass which entitles them to a third off normal single or return fares. The cost of this concession to the charge payer in the current financial year is estimated to be some £810,000, of which £402,000 will be met by the district councils.
However, the provision of free travel would not merely increase those costs by a factor of three to £2·4 million. I
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understand that that is the correct figure, but it would generate much higher usage, as more people would take advantage of the concession. This would result in higher claims from the bus companies and extra costs to the council.
But there are points other than costs to bear in mind. The scheme run in West Glamorgan imposes no time restrictions on senior citizens who use it. This means that pass holders may travel at any time, including at peak hours. This is helpful to the pass holders and makes for economic and easy administration of the scheme. A penalty of free travel which the hon. Gentleman advocates would be the need to restrict the times at which concession holders could travel in order to ensure that adequate capacity is available on the buses for those who need to travel. The hon. Gentleman mentioned that restriction.
Mr. Hain: Does the Minister agree that millions of pensioners elsewhere in the United Kingdom enjoy this benefit? Why do not pensioners in Wales enjoy it?
Sir Wyn Roberts: As I said, it is entirely a matter for the local authority to decide what best suits its locality. I imagine that, as the hon. Gentleman said, many free-travel schemes are to be found in heavily urbanised areas where fewer disadvantages may occur. Indeed, it is for each and every local authority to decide what type of concessionary scheme it can operate successfully and afford. In looking at concessionary fares schemes, local authorities have to consider what is affordable and the effect on other persons who, for whatever reason, need or choose to use the buses.
The hon. Gentleman concentrated very much on the needs of the elderly. He will be aware that, in our "Caring for People" White Paper and subsequent guidance, we have set out a comprehensive policy to ensure care in the community for elderly people. Each social services department is leading the production of a joint county social care plan for service development with health authorities and other bodies, including the voluntary sector, and in close consultation with service users and carers. The first plans will be published by next April.
We are supporting the implementation of those reforms with a unique programme of concerted action in Wales. The Welsh Office initiative began in 1987, and 56 demonstration projects testing innovative ways to care for elderly people in their own homes have been approved for grants. Four of those projects are in West Glamorgan, and the Welsh Office has allocated approximately £2·5 million for them. One of the projects, the staying-at-home initiative which started in January 1988, explores ways to improve community services and, in particular, enable dependent elderly people who would otherwise require residential care to remain in their homes.

Squatting and Second Homes
1.30 pm
Mr. Simon Burns: I wish to discuss the case for a review of the law on squatting and its effect on privately owned second homes. Many people associate second homes simply with the wealthy who have a weekend cottage or a country home that they visit on Friday nights, returning to London or wherever on Sundays. In recent years, however, that has not been the only definition of a second home. More and more people own second homes because they must travel elsewhere for work and be away from their families from Monday until Friday, returning to the main family home at weekends. Many people have a second home simply because, as a result of mortgage interest rates, they have been unable to sell their home but have decided to move to their new home so that they do not lose that purchase.
Since I first raised the matter with the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), I have been extremely grateful for the help of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State at the Home Office for the part that he and his officials have played in this thorny, pressing problem. There is no short cut to a solution and no easy answers. Many complex legal attitudes and issues must be looked at before we come up with an answer that will deal with the problem.
The current legal position is that squatting is an act of trespass which, in general, is dealt with by civil rather than criminal law. However, in cases of displaced residential occupiers—people who are displaced from their main residence—the provisions of sections 6 and 7 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 apply. That gives immediate relief to lawful occupiers who are deprived of living accommodation. If squatters' actions result in making occupiers homeless, immediate action can be taken to remove the squatters. The criminal law deals with the more objectionable behaviour associated with squatting. If damage is done to the property during entry into or occupation of the property, an offence is committed under the Criminal Damage Act 1971.
Although the principle of the law may be excellent, in practice it does not work so well for those who own a second home and are caught with the problem of squatters. The law is inadequate for the current circumstances and needs to be reviewed urgently with respect to squatters in individuals' second homes, which are not only holiday homes but second homes simply because they are taking longer to sell their main homes than they had hoped.
I should like to mention two cases to highlight the heartache, misery and expense that squatters can cause. One relates to my constituency of Chelmsford; the other took place elsewhere. For obvious reasons, I cannot mention any names. My constituents' home is still unoccupied and they live in fear of squatters returning to the property.
The first case was that of someone who is not a constituent. I should like to read the episode, which concerns the misery caused to a woman and her home. The local newspaper wrote:
"A woman wept last night in her dream home, now reduced to a stinking shell by squatters.
Mrs. X broke down in tears at the appalling damage to the house in which she had sunk her hopes and her savings.
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The vandals even scrawled obscene rhymes on the walls, threatening to sort her out with a crowbar.
She said, 'How can I live here now? I never thought people could be this base. The house even smells of animals.'
The gang wrecked the two-storey house which was being converted to a single home from bedsits.
Mrs. X was only days away from moving in. Now it will take months and more than £15,000 to repair the damage caused in a drunken orgy of destruction.
The vandals ripped bannisters from stairs, smashed seven sinks, two showers and a bath, wrenched off every radiator, hacked out all the plumbing.
Floorboards were pulled up; skirting boards stripped and plaster chiselled off so that they could pull out copper pipes…
Every room was covered in obscene graffiti. 10 hippies and two dogs lived in the house for just over a week. As well as the damage, they left beer bottles and rotting rubbish everywhere.
They started ripping the house apart after Mrs. X obtained a writ for their eviction … Police today said that they were powerless to combat the squatters".
Every reasonable and decent person will have a great deal of sympathy with Mrs. X, given the reprehensible activities of the squatters who destroyed the home into which she hoped shortly to move.
The second case concerns constituents of mine who wanted to sell their house and in the meantime found another house into which they wished to move. So as not to lose the sale on the house they bought it and moved into it, having emptied their original home and ensured that all the windows and doors were securely bolted and locked so that no one could force entry. Imagine their horror when they discovered that squatters had entered the property. I believe that what they had done should be considered forced entry, but under the legislation it was apparently not an offence. They had managed to gain entry by removing the window panes without damaging them and had then unlocked the window. They proceeded to open the front door by unlocking it, brought up a van with their possessions and moved in. Nothing could be done by the police to remove the squatters immediately.
The squatters remained for just over a week, in which they held open house parties every night, inviting total strangers from the local public house to come and enjoy themselves and drink. The wallpaper, the carpets and the remaining beds in the house were damaged, and it was left to my constituents to seek a court order to get the squatters evicted.
My constituents were relatively lucky. It took quite a short time for them to get a court order, but they were determined, and because they could not have their case heard in a court in Chelmsford quickly enough they fortunately managed to find a court in Essex which was able to deal with their problems relatively speedily. They got their court order and the squatters left. But it cost those people a considerable amount of money to gain that quick access to the law. It cost them even more money because they had to repair the damage to their home before they could ask people to visit it with a view to buying it. That is unacceptable.
Fortunately, my constituents had the financial resources to seek redress from the courts, but many people do not have the £800—or, in some cases, more than £1,000—necessary to go to court to seek quick redress. It seems inherently unfair that people have to spend considerable sums of money to obtain possession of their home. One argument is that such people could sue the squatters for the damage caused, but that is not realistic. Most squatters

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would not have the financial resources, even if they could be identified and taken to court. Suing or claiming damages from squatters is not a viable alternative.
It was for those reasons that, on 19 June 1990, I raised the matter with the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley at Prime Minister's questions. I said:
"Is it not time that the balance of the law was redressed to favour the innocent home owner, rather than the reprehensible activities of squatters?"
To her credit, my right hon. Friend replied:
"As my hon. Friend is aware, squatting that directly excludes a householder from his home is already a criminal offence. The police can act, and penalties are severe. However, squatting in a residential property which does not cause the immediate threat of homelessness can be dealt with only through civil action."
My right hon. Friend continued—and this is crucial—
"I agree with my hon. Friend that there appears to be a defect in the law, and I am looking into the matter further."—[Official Report, 19 June 1990; Vol. 174, c. 797.]
I am grateful that my right hon. Friend looked into the matter further and I know that, over the past year, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State and his officials have considered the matter carefully and may possibly order a review of the law, which I welcome.
I accept that there are no easy answers; the law on property ownership is complex and difficult. Obviously, the law must be fair and any solution must be fair to all parties. However, the law at present is grossly unfair. It is balanced away from the innocent victims—home owners—and a review must address that problem urgently.
I accept, as I know my right hon. Friend the Minister would, that there is a problem of homelessness in this country. Fortunately, actions taken by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is dealing realistically with those problems. I am sure that everyone welcomes the fact that, in the past six months, the number of people sleeping rough on the streets of London has been halved due to my right hon. Friend's precipitate action and his imaginative policies of seeking to open up buildings such as the one in Soho square to provide night stay.
However, the fact that we have homelessness does not give squatters a divine right to take the law into their own hands and move into the properties of innocent bystanders who have taken all the care that they thought necessary properly to secure their homes against people breaking and entering, and squatting. It seems ironic and unfair that people lock their houses and ensure that they are secure but, because of the definition of what constitutes damage to a property when gaining entry, there is a legal way in which people can gain entry to those properties causing mayhem, misery and expense for homeowners, who find it can take some time to sort out the problem.
I should like to thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for what he has done and for the fact that at 1.45 pm on the day in which we go into recess he is prepared to listen to the problems that are close to the heart of people who, sadly, have become caught up with the activities of squatters. I urge him to ensure that his Department's review is concluded swiftly so that we can discuss in detail any suggestions that his Department is prepared to make for changing the law and putting an end to these reprehensible and anti-social activities.
1.45 pm
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. John Patten): My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) has expressed his case with characteristic lucidity, and I congratulate him. The problem that he has highlighted over the past year, since he asked the question of our right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), has got worse. The problem of squatting has been deteriorating over the past three or four years and I applaud the action that my hon. Friend has taken. He has highlighted the issue and caused us in the Home Office as well as my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor and my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General to look at this fiendishly complex problem. It involves both criminal and civil law, landlord and tenant law and an individual's right to occupy property. It is exactly where criminal and civil law intermesh and where, over several hundred years, a complex set of statute laws has grown up.
Following my hon. Friend's question last year, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I have been engaged in a wide-ranging review of the law on squatting. I am afraid that I cannot make any announcements today, but I can assure my hon. Friend that it will not be long before I am able to make an announcement about the next step in what we intend to do.
Squatting is not trivial. It causes enormous inconvenience and, on occasions, great expense for those involved. The two examples that my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford gave, one from his constituency and one from elsewhere in the country, clearly showed the personal tragedy as well as the expense and inconvenience that can be caused to innocent people who own property in which they are not currently living.
I am sure that people who have had squatters in their property feel the same as those who have been burgled. They may never feel comfortable in the house or flat again. Someone has entered the property by force and done the sort of thing that my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford described. Although I have never been in that position, I am sure that I would not feel comfortable in my home for a considerable time afterwards. The emotional distress can be considerable.
I join my hon. Friend in rejecting absolutely any suggestion that squatting can ever be defensible or that it is normally—there may be exceptions—related to homelessness. The majority of those who squat, as in the cases described by my hon. Friend, have chosen to invade the property of others in a measured and calculated way as they move from place to place. I have seen that in my own part of the country. Squatting is the unlawful occupation of someone else's property and it cannot be justified.
Squatting involves not only residential property. We have received alarming reports from different parts of the country about an increase in the amount of squatting in commercial and shop property. My hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Hannam) has made a strong plea for further action in that regard. I know that the Confederation of British Industry, on behalf of its members, feels that more needs to be done about squatting by those who look as if they are professional gangs of shop squatters. They manipulate the law and sometimes set up shops for a few days and sell sub-standard goods. Of course, the use of any electricity or gas that may be connected to the property renders them liable to criminal prosecution, and the people who have purchased goods

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from such places will find themselves in an unfortunate position. My hon. Friend's campaign has flushed out that additional dimension. We are trying to deal with the problem, but squatting in domestic properties is rather easier to deal with than the complex problem of shop squatting.
It is difficult to gauge the extent of squatting: it is like drug addiction, it is a hidden problem or a passing problem as people move in and out. It is difficult to obtain accurate statistics. Recent newspaper reports estimated the number at 50,000. Sometimes newspaper estimates are as useful as ministerial estimates, and I would not dispute that number. However, statistics are available for local authority properties. My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning reports that, at 1 April 1990, approximately 5,200 local authority homes were being unlawfully occupied. Ninety per cent. of those were in London and 65 per cent. in just three boroughs—Southwark, Lambeth and Hackney. Those boroughs are a byword for hopeless housing administration.
The 1986 London housing survey suggested that a quarter of an estimated 7,500 residential properties that were being squatted in were privately owned, the remainder being owned by local authorities and housing associations. The survey estimated that there were 12,500 squatters in London, about half of whom were under 25; only 8 per cent. were over 40. It is essentially a young person's problem. The survey revealed that mass squatting was rare and that, mercifully, cases involving young children were negligible.
Hard figures may be difficult to obtain, but the Government do not doubt that squatting represents a problem that merits serious attention. Squatting is one form of the civil tort of trespass and has traditionally been dealt with in the civil courts. This approach was justified in the past by the fact that squatting was seen as the simple occupation of property, which may be subject to genuine civil disputes. Where squatting is accompanied by criminal activity such as theft, criminal damage—undoubtedly some of the matters to which my hon. Friend referred fell into the category of criminal damage—the abstraction of electricity and the use of gas, the general criminal law is available for use against squatters, as it is against anybody else. The problem is that it is difficult to obtain evidence when people swoop into houses or shops and move on.
The traditional approach, which has dominated our approach to the occupation of property as far back as records reveal—that is a long way—has always been to leave it to the civil law. That approach was modified for the first time by the Criminal Law Act 1977, which made it an offence for a trespasser to remain on premises after being required to leave by a displaced residential occupier or a protected intended occupier—someone who has several defined legal interests in the property.
Given the seriousness of the predicament facing those who were made homeless by squatters, that approach was justified. Someone could come home, find people squatting in their home and have nowhere to go. That was put right, and Parliament decided that a civil remedy alone was insufficient.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford and other hon. Members would like to extend that protection to those who are not made homeless by squatters but who nevertheless may suffer considerable hardship at their hands. I think particularly of my hon. Friend's constituents, who had moved to a new house but were
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unable to sell their former house because squatters had moved in while it was on the market. After those squatters had been evicted, my hon. Friend's constituents were still faced with the difficulty and expense of returning their old house to a fit state for sale. That is a serious issue. There is no denying the feeling of injustice that my hon. Friend's constituents and others rightly feel at having been put in such a situation, often with little prospect of compensation from the squatters. They must feel helpless and in need of the law's protection. That is the point which my hon. Friend has been pressing on the Government.
My hon. Friend will agree that a distinction can be drawn between this sort of case, serious as it is, and cases which the law recognises in which lawful occupiers of property are made homeless. My hon. Friend draws attention to the case for a review of the effectiveness of the present law in dealing with the sort of case that I have just outlined. I assure him that, in reviewing the law, the Home Secretary and I have such cases very much in mind.
As I have explained, squatting is not generally a matter for the criminal law, except in cases where squatters commit criminal offences. The civil remedy is to seek an order from the High Court or the county court to get possession of the property. The courts are aware that it is often important to move quickly against squatters, and expeditious procedures are now available. I have recently discussed these matters with the Lord Chancellor, who said that all that it is possible to do under present procedures to expedite matters is being done. In the most urgent cases, where there is a danger to life or limb or to property, it is possible to obtain an immediate ex parte injunction, although that involves much cost by those who are threatened.
Mr. Burns: The Minister has given two examples of the definition of emergency. An emergency is often more pressing to those who own a property than it is to the law, and they probably interpret it differently from the courts. For example, I suspect that in many cases there would not be loss of life or limb. The emergency for the people involved is that of no longer having their property under their control but invaded by others.
Mr. Patten: That is a good point, characteristically made by my hon. Friend, and we shall have to take it into account as we finalise the review of the law in this area.
It must be stressed that there are dangers in widening the scope of the criminal law in this field. In the past, some hon. Members have suggested changes which in practice would mean that anyone who could not satisfy a policeman or even a local authority official—and such officials are not necessarily as benign as local authorities officials in Chelmsford, now happily back under Conservative control since May—that he or she was in lawful occupation of the house could therefore be thrown on to the streets without further ado. In that context, I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates the difficulties.
Even with less radical extensions of the law, we must be apprehensive about the prospect of involving the police in what may be genuine disputes over property rights or disputes between landlords and tenants and not disputes over squatting. There are considerable difficulties, and we would not wish to see chief constables or hard-pressed policemen and policewomen turned into a free eviction

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agency for landlords. We must also be sensitive to the possible public order consequences of police involvement in squatting cases.
I acknowledge that, in the great majority of cases, the squatter is in the wrong, and knows it. A further point which my hon. Friend did not raise but which underlines much of the complexity of the consideration that the Home Office is giving to this issue is the matter of third party rights. For example, in his constituency or mine, an absentee landlord may sell a property in which there are squatters and not care very much for immediate repossession. On either side of the property, or above and below if it is a flat, people may be grossly inconvenienced by the noise, smell and attendant nuisance.
That is a live question. In the spirit of the times, I know that my hon. Friend will spend almost the entire recess at his desk in the Palace of Westminster attending to the problems of his constituents. Over that time, perhaps he will give some attention to the problem and let me have his views. It may be that third parties should have the right. I do not know. It is a complex issue and such a right might give other people a gratuitous opportunity to cause trouble.
The criminal law already intervenes in the worst cases of squatting. Before we go any further, we have to know precisely what it is that we are aiming to catch, and ensure that we do not aim too wide. It would be a good idea, particularly as matters concerning property are always sensitive, if there were wide agreement on both sides of the Chamber. If we make changes to the law, we want them to stick, in the interests of citizens, not in the interests of a personal or political point of view. Therefore, a fair measure of agreement would be a good thing.
I hope to be in a position to make an announcement about this issue soon, and I will ensure that my hon. Friend, who has spoken so forcefully about this important issue, gets a copy of the announcement on the day that it is made.

Newhill Sub-post Office
2 pm
Mr. Peter Hardy: The matter that I wish to raise might best be seen as a constituency case with several important implications. These may emerge as I present the case and suggest the need for consistency of standards and their relationship to general decision making. Although the debate is concerned primarily with the closure of a local sub-post office, it touches on the future of the whole postal and Post Office service. I shall suggest that there is a need for the role of the sub-post office to be adequately perceived and more fully appreciated.
Sub-post offices provide an important social service. They are a point of contact, and the best of our sub-post offices, and their staff, can be providers of information, advice and assistance to those who are most often in need of that support. That fact needs to be fully recognised and that service needs to be adequately valued and maintained. This point is a timely one to make shortly after the Prime Minister sought public favour through his citizens charter. Apparently, this charter is not to be accompanied by any adequate allocation of public resources. Without an acceptance that improved services and helpful approaches may require that the operation involved is a little more costly, and that profit motives may need to be a little less dominant, the concept of the charter will not be adequately fulfilled. Words may be fine, but actions are something else.
If the Post Office determines that there shall be fewer sub-post offices, individual citizens, perhaps many of them, will face extra cost and greater inconvenience and maybe comparatively severe extra costs or significantly increased personal inconvenience. The Post Office may benefit financially, but the individual and the affected community will gain nothing. If the individual counts, then, when such a decision is made, it should be seen as serious and the approach to such a decision should require greater consideration and care. That has not been our experience in regard to the loss of the Newhill sub-post office.
As I hope to explain, I have been unable to reach the conclusion that the closure of Newhill sub-post office received the care that one would have thought necessary. On 23 February, I received a letter from a Mr. D. Skipworth, one of the management staff of Post Office Counters Ltd. in Sheffield. It informed me that the Newhill sub-post office was to close. The letter read:
"The closure has been brought about by the decision of the Co-operative Retail Society, in whose store the Post Office is situated, to close down their operation in Cemetery Road with effect from this date"—
that is, 23 March.
"There are no other suitable retail outlets in the Newhill area to which we could consider relocating."
Therefore, the service is to end.
I think that I replied by return to inform Mr. Skipworth that I much regretted the loss of the facility, not least because it would be unhelpful to my constituents residing in the Newhill area. I added that the additional use of the Wath upon Dearne post office that would follow would mean greater inconvenience for my constituents. That is already a busy post office. I wrote that, if an alternative

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opportunity arose that would allow Post Office facilities to be re-established in the locality, it should be considered as a matter of emergency.
Local concern became acute. I was kept informed by a Mr. J. Robinson, who was acting as the ad hoc secretary of an action group that had been formed to contest the closure. I met some constituents with Mr. Robinson and ward councillors at the Crown inn at Newhill on 17 March. There I met another shopkeeper whose premises, in my view, are adaptable for the purpose of establishing a sub-post office service, and whose personal record was certainly such as to qualify him for the position.
On 18 March I wrote again to Mr. Skipworth at Sheffield. I referred to the meeting that had taken place on 17 March and to the strong support that had been expressed within the community for the retention of the service. I referred also to the commendation of the representatives of the community who were present at the meeting for the transfer of the business to 189, Cemetery road, which is virtually adjacent to the location of the former sub-post office. I referred to the deep local anxiety, not least because many pensioners live in close proximity to the sub-post office. They had told me most firmly that the closure of the Newhill sub-post office meant additional 40p bus fares to use the alternative service. That may not matter to the Post Office, but it matters to my constituents.
The local action group had a meeting with the district general manager, Mr. Marsden. Its members were advised—I was not—that Wath upon Dearne was over-provided with sub-post offices. At that meeting Mr. Marsden and his colleagues were left in no doubt that there was deep and bitter resentment about the closure.
I wrote again to Mr. Skipworth on 18 April, and did not receive a reply. I wrote again and asked whether those involved with the matter would concern themselves with my correspondence and favour me with a reply to my letters. I did not receive a reply. I tabled four parliamentary questions on 8 May. I hoped that the fact that questions had been tabled would stimulate Post Office Counters Ltd. to respond. I wrote to Sir Bryan Nicholson, the chairman of the Post Office, on 4 May. I received a swift acknowledgement from Sir Bryan's office, which told me that inquiries would be made. That led to a little flurry of action. I received a call to say that my letters had not been received by Post Office Counters Ltd. in Sheffield, although they were clearly addressed.
I asked my secretary to send copies of my letters to Mr. Marsden at the district office and then I telephoned Mr. Marsden, to be told that a careful check had been made and that none of my letters had been received. I was rather angry about that. The implication was that my secretary had not posted the letters. I made it extremely clear to Mr. Marsden that my secretary, who has worked with me for a long time, is of irreproachable character and that when she assured me that the letters had been posted, I knew that they had been.
There was further evidence to justify the claim. When my secretary sent the letters to Post Office Counters Ltd. in Sheffield, she sent copies to Mr. Robinson, to the ward councillors and to the local press. All of them received the copies without delay. The ones that apparently went astray were those sent to Post Office Counters Ltd.
I sent copies of the letters that were said to be missing and received a further reply. I should have said that I was told by Post Office Counters Ltd. that it would ask Royal Mail to investigate. I could not see Royal Mail being able
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to identify the location of the letters that Post Office Counters Ltd. said had gone astray. I am not critical of Royal Mail for not being able to find that correspondence. I received a letter, dated 20 May, from Mr. A. J. Roberts, the managing director of Post Office Counters Ltd. He said that he was replying to my letter to the chairman. I would have thought it only courteous had the chairman replied himself. Mr. Roberts made it clear that the original notification to me of the proposed closure was not entirely accurate. He said:
"I am told that it was the initial decision by the Co-operative Retail Society to cease operations, allied with the over-provision of counter services in Wath, which led to the decision to close the Newhill office."
In February, I was told that the reason for the closure was entirely due to the Co-operative Retail Society, but by April Post Office Counters Ltd. has widened the cause.
The letter contained another interesting development. Mr. Roberts confirmed that
"the petition you mention was presented to Mr. Marsden at the Public Meeting held on 23 April."
My initial letter to the chairman of the Post Office asked him to receive a petition. I still have that petition. I was assured by the chairman of Post Office Counters Ltd. that it had already been received. That suggests a degree of carelessness—something to which I referred earlier. I was not happy about the letter from Mr. Roberts, especially as he suggested that I saw the regional manager and the district manager—the people responsible for the muddle and confusion in the first place.
I decided that the best thing to do would be to write once again to the chairman of the Post Office saying that I was not happy about the muddle and confusion and that I still wanted to present the petition. The Minister will understand that petitions of that sort are rarely in the legal condition that would allow me to present them in this Chamber. I wanted to present that petition to the man who bears responsibility for the Post Office. I thought that, at least, he would receive me briefly and graciously, and allow me to express the deep concern of my constituents and my irritation at the way that the matter had been handled. Instead, I received another letter from Sir Bryan—which was extremely courteous—saying that Post Office business was so divided or parcelled out between the Royal Mail, Parcelforce and Post Office Counters Ltd. that such matters would be better dealt with within those departments, and not by himself.
Sir Bryan was courteous, and so he should be. However, he would not see me. I shall be blunt, and say that Sir Bryan receives emoluments of £149,195 a year to lead his industry. When a Member of this House—it does not matter from which side—needs to see the leader of an industry because of gross incompetence and confused actions within it, he should surely receive him. If what Sir Bryan says is correct, and his industry is now so well organised that he has no responsibilities, why does he retain his job? Many of our constituents have been made redundant for far less marked a change. If Sir Bryan does not have a role that allows him to meet Members of Parliament with a justified cause, is not that role superfluous? Either the man has a job to do and does it, or he does not have a job, in which case he should not be paid.
The Post Office may not be particularly concerned because old-age pensioners have to find an extra 40p to meet the additional cost of going to an alternative post office——
Mr. Terry Patchett: It does not care.
Mr. Hardy: This morning I received a delightful communication from the Post Office, as all hon. Members will have done, telling me how much it supports and welcomes the Prime Minister's initiative on the citizens charter. I hope that the Minister will look at the delightful comments in that. It welcomes the proposals for improved service. Those proposals would add impetus to improving the quality of service. It is proud of its achievements. That pride is not shared in Newhill. It is putting its customers first. It has not put my constituents in the Newhill area first. It will test the service at selected sub-post offices. It will not be able to test it at the Newhill sub-post office because it has gone, and that is not satisfactory. The experience is distressing.
I deeply regret that my letters should have been lost; that my request that the petition should be received should be so lightly dismissed; that when I requested the chairman of the Post Office to receive the petition I was advised to hand it to the person who said that he received the original one and who must have inadequately advised Mr. Roberts, the managing director, in the first place when Mr. Roberts assured me that he had already received the petition. I do not believe that there has been the care that is required, and I illustrate that with one further example.
One of the letters that I received from Post Office Counters Ltd. referred to the meeting in Newhill, and the senior official of the post office responsible wrote to me to say that it had been suggested that the London road sub-post office should close rather than the Newhill one. But I do not have a London road sub-post office in my constituency. There is no London road in my constituency. If the Post Office cannot get the names of the roads right when Members of Parliament write to it, it is little wonder that this Member of Parliament is so concerned.
The matter is serious. I hope that the Minister will confirm that I am entirely justified in expressing anxiety on behalf of my constituents and that I was entirely justified in seeking to pass the petition, and to express the concern of my constituents, to Sir Bryan Nicholson, the chairman of the Post Office. I hope that he will share my concern that the conduct that I have experienced is not satisfactory in a parliamentary democracy. If those standards are to continue, the Prime Minister will be a disappointed man, and many of my constituents further afield than Newhill will have cause for irritation and anger, as well as the prospect of inconvenience and additional cost, as my constituents have had.
2.18 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Edward Leigh): I take up straight away the comments that the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy) made at the end of his speech. I confirm my view that he is entirely justified in raising the matter on this Adjournment debate. From what he has said this afternoon and in discussions with those who advise me, he is entirely justified in everything that he has done in the matter during the past few months.
The debate is particularly timely because in it the hon. Gentleman has referred to two areas to which the Government attach considerable importance. First, the future of Newhill post office raises the question of the adequate provision of post office services—an important subject that needs to be debated in the House. Secondly,
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there is the question of the quality of service provided by public sector organisations such as the Post Office—and the Government have, with the publication of the citizens charter this week, expressed in concrete terms their determination to raise those standards. During the speech of the hon. Member for Wentworth, I referred to that part of the citizens charter that deals with the Post Office. It states:
"The objective of our reforms is to improve the range, choice, reliability and value for money of postal services. We also plan to increase the power of the customer to take action when the service provided falls below a reasonable standard."
There follows, rightly, the statement that the Post Office has already raised its standards and can certainly lay claim to be the most efficient organisation of its kind in Europe.
However, the charter adds:
"There is, however, further scope for increasing efficiency, reducing costs and improving standards of service."
That is why this debate is so timely. As the hon. Member for Wentworth said, a citizens charter must embrace not just words but actions, and we should ensure that public utilities such as the Post Office show—in the words of the hon. Gentleman—consideration and care to all members of the public and to those who represent them.
I know that the hon. Gentleman would not have drawn attention to the issue if he did not feel considerable concern, and I hope that he will not mind me saying that he has gained an enviable reputation in the House, during his long service of more than 20 years, as an exemplary constituency Member of Parliament. Today's debate is another example of his determination, which we have all noted over the years, to stand up for his constituents, and to speak up for them. The Adjournment debate procedure provides an ideal format in which to do that.
The Post Office provides a service on which we all rely at some time.
Mr. Patchett: In what way will the citizens charter assist the customers of Newhill post office?
Mr. Leigh: I have another nine minutes in which to finish my contribution to this debate, and, having given considerable thought to the matter, I hope that I will be able to respond positively. If the hon. Member for Barnsley, East (Mr. Patchett) will be a little patient, I will outline what we consider to be the advantages accruing to the citizen from the charter and what can be done in the particular case of Newhill.
Although we can usually rely on Post Office services with confidence, it is unfortunately inevitable, given the size of the organisation, that, from time to time, difficulties of the kind that were described earlier would arise. I accept absolutely the genuine concern expressed by the hon. Member for Wentworth about the need for proper provision of Post Office services for his constituents, and for efficient and helpful handling of representations to the Post Office. I shall return to those specific aspects.
Let me make it clear at once that I agree with the hon. Member for Wentworth that aspects of the case that he raised should and could have been handled with greater sensitivity by the Post Office. It has a statutory duty to have regard to the social—I lay special emphasis on the word "social", and in that respect I hope that my response will be helpful to the hon. Member for Barnsley, East—industrial, and commercial needs of the United Kingdom in exercising its powers. It is important to set the difficulties that the hon. Member for Wentworth described against the background of the corporation's statutory

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duties and the many positive steps that it has taken to reorganise its business, and to improve its accountability and quality of service.
Since the Post Office ceased to be a public department and became a public corporation 20 years ago, it has transformed itself into a profitable organisation run on commercial lines, with a clear priority given to serving the customer. In the past, the Post Office operated as a monolithic single business but in practice it often covered a number of distinct activities—letters, parcels, counters and Girobank. The last few years have seen increasing separation of the different businesses, leaving them to deal at arm's length with other parts of the Post Office. That has given each not only more commercial incentive to make the best use of its assets and develop its own business, but an opportunity to take a more responsive approach to the needs of its different customers. That is why, in the particular circumstances raised by the hon. Member, there was a wish to resolve the issue within the counters business rather than at the chairman's level, and furthermore on a regional basis rather than centrally, to allow local knowledge of customer requirements to inform the decision-making process.
I will draw the attention of the Post Office chairman to the issues raised in this afternoon's debate, and I will personally ask him to reconsider his decision not to meet the hon. Gentleman. Despite the heavy responsibilities laid upon the chairman of the Post Office, if requested courteously to meet a Member of Parliament to discuss a matter of some importance, he should do so, and I shall write him a letter. Of course, this is entirely a matter for the chairman of the Post Office as he has operational independence from the Government, but I shall write to him in those terms and perhaps that will offer a suitable opportunity for the hon. Gentleman to present his petition in person to Sir Bryan.
Post Office Counters Ltd. was incorporated in 1987 as a wholly owned subsidiary of the Post Office. Since then, it has consistently made a small operating profit on its turnover, which was last year about £950 million. We all have an interest in seeing that it continues to operate efficiently, effectively and profitably. It will not be in anyone's long-term interests if the Post Office is not able to generate the funds to maintain and improve its service.
The task is not an easy one. Traditional Post Office services are increasingly subject to competition. Stamps are now sold in some 40,000 other retail outlets. Automated funds transfer directly into bank and building society accounts already provides an alternative means of delivering pension and benefit payments and for the payment of bills. The option for doing that is to be extended under the provisions of the citizens charter to provide greater customer choice. The Post Office therefore needs to look to costs and efficiency if it is to remain competitive and retain business, but it clearly recognises that economic considerations are only one part of a wider equation; it must earn and retain a reputation among its customers for meeting their requirements if it is to keep their loyalty.
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It is worth pointing out that it currently has the largest retail network in the country consisting of more than 20,000 post offices throughout the United Kingdom. Indeed, it is considerably larger than that of any bank or building society, and it is worth pointing out that it has more outlets per head of population than the post office networks in France, Germany, Japan or the USA. In the United Kingdom, post offices are therefore generally easily accessible to all but those in the very remotest areas. So post offices are very much local institutions, a point made by the hon. Gentleman, and I would be the first to acknowledge that. Particularly—but by no means exclusively—in rural areas, they often serve an important social function in their local communities. Again, the hon. Gentleman referred to that, especially in regard to pensioners. That fact was, as I have said, clearly recognised in the Act establishing the Post Office as a public corporation.
We have repeatedly made clear our commitment—and I am more than happy to do so again today—to the maintenance of a network of post offices adequate to enable the Post Office to fulfil its statutory duties. I know that the Post Office has also made clear its own commitment to the maintenance of its network.
However, I must emphasise that that does not always leave the Post Office with comfortable decisions about individual offices. In the case of the Newhill office, the Post Office was placed in an unusual position, following the decision of the existing retailer to close its store. I understand that immediate initial inquiries suggested that there were no suitable alternative retail sites. I know that the hon. Gentleman has done a lot of work on that, and no doubt it is an operational matter that he could discuss with the chairman when he meets him.
The Post Office must, however, consider a number of criteria when taking decisions on the level of provision of post office services. There is, of course, the important consideration of the extent of local demand and the nature of that demand. We are all conscious of the difficulties faced by the elderly and handicapped in reaching their nearest facilities. That is why Post Office Counters, in deciding that the Newhill office could not be reopened, took account of the high level of provision in the area.
I hope that it is clear from what I have said that the Post Office has put considerable effort into maintaining an appropriate and efficient network. Although specific decisions about the running of post offices must be left to the Post Office, I recognise the anxieties raised by the hon. Gentleman. I share his considerable surprise that three letters could fail to arrive at Post Office Counters, despite the fact that copies were made. But, of course, there are other instances of letters being lost, so we do not know what the real reason was. I hope that I have reassured the hon. Gentleman that I take the matter seriously. I trust that the meeting can be arranged and that the matter will be satisfactorily resolved.

Pakistan and Kashmir
2.30 pm
Sir John Wheeler: I am glad to have the opportunity to introduce this debate and I am especially pleased that the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Mr. Lennox-Boyd), is to reply. I am also glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne) is in his place this afternoon, for he is not only a distinguished vice-chairman of the British Pakistan Group in the House but a long-term friend of Pakistan and the south Asian sub-continent.
I was inspired to seek this debate following the speech by the Chairman of the Senate of Pakistan at the 39th annual dinner of the Pakistan Society held on 20 June. The Chairman of the Senate took the opportunity to touch on the progress of parliamentary democracy in Pakistan and to raise the Kashmir question.
In the 44 years since the establishment of Pakistan as an independent country, there have been only 21 years of genuine civilian government. The murder of President Zia in 1988 set in train the return of a civilian Government. President Zia had always made the commitment that democratic elections should take place, but I pay a very warm tribute to the President of Pakistan for his courageous stewardship of his country's affairs since 1988. Without the wise statesmanship of President Ishaq Khan, I doubt whether Pakistan would have made the continuing progress with parliamentary democracy.
I had the pleasure of meeting President Khan in the week before he exercised his constitutional powers to dissolve the National Assembly, when he took the view that circumstances had arisen in which the government of Pakistan could not be carried out in accordance with the provisions of the constitution and that the electorate should be invited to decide which of the competing political parties should form the future Government of the country.
The election that followed the dissolution of the National Assembly was regarded by the majority who observed the process as lively and vigorous. For example, The Guardian of 31 October 1990 reported from Islamabad that three international reports gave Pakistan a clean bill of health. Perhaps more importantly, in view of the relationship that Pakistan has with the United States, the same newspaper reported:
"The Washington-based National Democratic Institute has already declared that the elections were generally free and fair".
The polls saw a landslide victory for the Islamic Democratic Alliance, and Mr. Nawaz Sharif became Prime Minister. We in the House warmly congratulate Pakistan on its continued commitment to democratic parliamentary institutions and wish them every continued success. We also warmly welcome Pakistan back into membership of the Commonwealth.
The new Prime Minister and Government found themselves having to deal with the consequences of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Notwithstanding the fact that popular sentiment at street level was in favour of Saddam Hussein, the Government of Pakistan courageously sided with the United Nations and condemned the invasion of the independent state of Kuwait. Pakistan remained true
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to that principle throughout what was inevitably a difficult period for a Muslim state. I am sure that I echo the opinion of many in the House when I say that it was an act of very real courage and statesmanship to stay the course and support the United Nations and its coalition.
Pakistan sent troops to Saudi Arabia for defensive purposes and the United Kingdom recognised the impact of the Gulf crisis on the Pakistan economy, which was damaged by price increases, disruptions in the oil supply and the loss of remittances of workers in Iraq and Kuwait. The United Kingdom played its part in helping Pakistan through the International Monetary Fund's enhanced structural adjustment facility, of which the United Kingdom is the largest contributor to the interest subsidy account. I hope that Pakistan was able to take advantage of that facility.
Since coming to office, Nawaz Sharif has moved with remarkable speed and given a high priority to economic growth and productivity. He is putting into place a vast programme to privatise inefficient state-owned businesses and recognises that the wider welfare programmes can be paid for only by a thriving economy. The Government of Pakistan have brought forth fresh initiatives for investment and exports, with an important relaxation of foreign exchange controls to encourage inward investment. We in the House warmly welcome those developments, especially as the United Kingdom is the largest foreign investor in Pakistan and our overseas aid programme is the third largest in Asia.
I am especially glad that Prime Minister Sharif's Government have decided to work for a thriving free-enterprise economy, because that offers the best prospect of improving the well-being of all the people and will provide a real bridge between Pakistan and India. A successful free economy will do more to solve Indo-Pakistani differences than anything else, and therein lies the longer-term solution to the Kashmir question to which I shall refer later. People who have financial success and something to lose in the event of war are more likely to strive for peace and good will. Real and imagined differences begin to fade when people succeed and the quality of life improves for all. Nawaz Sharif has a vision for the economic future of his country; I hope that he succeeds and I wish him well for all the reasons that I have given.
There are three other issues on which I would like to touch briefly. The first relates to the Shariat Bill. It is not generally understood in the United Kingdom that that Bill is not about what the western press beguilingly labels fundamentalism, but is aimed at making Pakistan a modern, progressive, democratic, Islamic state. Pakistan hopes that the Bill will assist in the elimination of corruption as well as providing fairness and justice for all. Importantly, the Bill does not affect the personal lives, religious freedom, traditions, customs and ways of life of non-Muslims. Minorities will continue to enjoy the full freedom to lead their lives in accordance with their own beliefs.
The second issue, which provides a very firm bond between the United Kingdom and Pakistan, concerns the control of drugs. I know from my visits to Pakistan that the issue of drug addiction is very serious, because Pakistan and its people are as much victims of narcotics as people living in the United Kingdom. I am glad that an increasing level of co-operation exists between the United Kingdom and Pakistan over the collection and use of

1351
intelligence information and in other ways. Last year, the former chief inspector of constabulary visited Pakistan to assist the special commission set up to review the future of the police.
I know from my own work that a close relationship is developing between our two countries to assist with the control of narcotics and the problem of lawlessness. The level of heroin addiction is of very great concern, and I hope the United Kingdom will do all that it can to assist Pakistan. I particularly hope that the Foreign Office will be able to provide a bursary to enable senior officers from the Pakistan police to attend the overseas course.at the police staff college. These experiences and links are one of the many ways of assisting a democratic police force in its awesome fight against the drug traders.
I now come to my final point, and it inevitably relates to Kashmir. In his speech to the Pakistan Society, the Chairman of the Senate made it clear that the Government of Pakistan wish to have friendly relations with India. He reminded his audience that there is much in common between the two countries in terms of history, and social and economic conditions. I warmly welcome the fact that both countries wish to resolve the problem of Kashmir through peaceful means, but I would like briefly to outline the history of the Kashmir question.
On 23 March 1940, the Muslim League in session at Lahore passed a resolution demanding in plain terms the partition of India and the formation of independent states in the north-western and eastern parts of India in which Muslims were in a majority. The term Pakistan was used to describe those parts of what was then India to be included in an independent state, and the K of Pakistan referred to Kashmir. The British scramble out of India in 1947 unfortunately left Kashmir as an open question. The then ruling Prince was a Hindu and eventually decided on Kashmir forming part of what was the then dominion of India, whereas the majority of the inhabitants who are Muslim clearly thought that they should be part of the new dominion of Pakistan.
Britain voted in favour of all the United Nations resolutions on Kashmir in 1948 and 1949. Those resolutions remain on the table. Sadly, Pakistan and India have been to war twice over the issue of Kashmir. In the Simla peace agreement of 1972, they agreed to
"settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations, or by any other peaceful means agreed on between them",
and the United Kingdom regards the issue as one to be settled by bilateral discussions.
Of course, the House most earnestly wishes that that should be so, yet the fact of the matter is that a substantial part of the Muslim population in Indian-held Kashmir is in rebellion against Indian rule. That has inevitably resulted in Indian police and military forces having to deal with the consequences of determined opposition. I have seen with my own eyes the results of this dispute in the hideous injuries suffered by men, women and children who have been caught up in the conflict, and huge armies stand in readiness on either side of the line of control.
In common with many Members of the House, I believe that we have to do our utmost to encourage our friends in these two democratic Commonwealth countries to find a lasting solution to the Kashmir question. That solution must be to follow the principle that the people of Jammu and Kashmir must decide in some form of agreed test of opinion whether Kashmir should be part of Pakistan or
1352
India. That test of opinion will be difficult to arrange. Will it be the opinion of the people in Indian-held Kashmir alone or in Pakistan Kashmir; or will Pakistan Kashmir be exempt from such a test; or will it be the opinion of the people in the whole of what is called Jammu and Kashmir?
Some people irresponsibly suggest that there is a second option of an independent state of Kashmir. Such a proposition is unacceptable to either India or Pakistan and does not accord with the United Nation's resolutions. Nor does it have any credible basis in the recent history of the region. I would not welcome the further fragmentation of the south Asian sub-continent; one need only look at the miserable position of Bangladesh to see the failure that has come from the break-up of former British India. What cannot be allowed to continue is the violation of human rights and the suppression of the right of people to determine their future.
There are many human rights activists in Delhi who share the concern of those of us who worry about events in Kashmir. The incidents which give rise to human rights concerns are a consequence of civil conflict. It has always been so throughout history—even in the days of British rule—that people who seek political change suffer, especially the innocent. I do not want to be suborned into the negative argument as to which alleged atrocity is true. Some incidents will be true, others partially so, and some the concoction of those fighting for their interests. What matters is a lasting solution to the problem and I would rather concentrate on that aspect of the matter and what the leaders of Pakistan and India can do to achieve it.
Those of us who desire to see India and Pakistan develop their economies for the greater benefit of their people firmly believe that every encouragement must be given to the solution of the Kashmir question. As long as the problem remains, the threat of conflict hangs over the sub-continent. I believe that the United Kingdom must shoulder part of the burden of finding a lasting solution. Our unseemly scramble from our responsibilities as the paramount power in 1947 left behind an unwanted legacy. We, too, must show greater concern for this issue and assist our friends in Islamabad and Delhi towards a lasting solution. I hope that United Kingdom policy will be directed towards this effort. We cannot sit on the fence and ignore a growing and serious situation.
2.47 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North (Sir J. Wheeler) on raising the important subject of relations with Pakistan and the issue of Kashmir. I have listened with great interest to what he has had to say. I recognise the attention and careful concern that my hon. Friend has long shown in matters relating to Pakistan. Indeed, he has for a long time been a close friend of that country, as well as of India.
I strongly endorse my hon. Friend's remarks about Pakistan's consolidation of parliamentary democracy and his complimentary references to the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan.
Mr. Neil Thorne: In his reply, will my hon. Friend the Minister take into account the enormous burden that Pakistan has had thrust on it as it has had to look after the refugees from Afghanistan? Will he also

1353
consider the considerable financial burden that that has created, particularly when the United States, for other reasons, has withdrawn its support?
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I endorse my hon. Friend's comments about the great efforts that the Pakistan Government have made in relation to the refugees. It is a subject to which my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North might have referred. We are happy to congratulate the Pakistan Government on that.
We share the pleasure of my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North in noting that, once again, Britain and Pakistan are fellow members of the Commonwealth.
We in this country respected the courageous stand taken by the Pakistan Government during the Gulf crisis in support of the multinational coalition, despite the considerable domestic difficulties which the Pakistan Government confronted in doing so. We were associated with our European partners in a message of support from the Twelve which was delivered to the Pakistan Prime Minister in early February. Pakistan's commitment to international order was visible and effective. It is also ongoing: even now, nine Pakistani officers form part of the United Nations' mission to man Kuwait's frontiers.
We also appreciate that Pakistan, like many other countries, suffered considerable economic disadvantage from Saddam Hussein's aggression. I understand that Pakistan has not yet made use of the International Monetary Fund's enhanced structural adjustment facility, but that Pakistan is continuing its discussions with IMF officials about this and other forms of IMF and World bank assistance.
We welcome the Prime Minister of Pakistan's impressive range of economic reforms, covering foreign investment, exports, tariff and foreign exchange controls, taxation and privatisation. We hope that they will make a strong contribution to the country's economic growth and benefit our bilateral trade and economic relations.
I note my hon. Friend's remarks about the Shariat law which has recently been enacted. Many people, both in Pakistan and the United Kingdom, await with interest the reports of the various commissions set up by the Shariat legislation to see what impact they will have on Pakistani society. We hope that the protection of minority interests will be assured and welcome the remarks made by senior figures in Pakistan which show that they recognise the need for this.
I thoroughly endorse my hon. Friend's remarks about the dangers of the drugs trade and the need to control, in particular, the dreadful problem of heroin addiction. That menace threatens both the United Kingdom and Pakistan and we are working closely with the Pakistan Government to combat drug-related problems. While I was in Pakistan in February, I was glad to have the opportunity to discuss these problems at first hand with those involved in trying to control them.
I was delighted to receive the Minister for Narcotics Control, the Honourable Rana Chandar Singh, when he visited London in May. During that useful visit, we were able to exchange views on a wide range of drug enforcement measures. I understand that the Minister is working actively on anti-drugs legislation on the seizure of assets. I hope that that will be enacted soon and will have a particular impact on dealing with drugs-related offences.
1354
I thank my hon. Friend for his suggestion about police training. We agree that that is a worthwhile way in which we can help Pakistan. Every year, we provide funds to train seven Pakistani police officers in the United Kingdom, many of whom attend the overseas course at the police staff college. Further consideration is being given to what more we can do to help their police forces, and we are in touch with the Pakistan authorities about this.
I note carefully what my hon. Friend said about Kashmir. We share his concern, that of the House and many other people in this country about the situation in Kashmir, not least the tension that it has caused between India and Pakistan, both good friends of Britain, and concerns that have been expressed about human rights.
I assure the House that, far from sitting on the fence and ignoring the problems of Kashmir, we have been active in encouraging India and Pakistan to find a peaceful solution to the dispute. Both sides have appreciated our efforts. We welcome, in particular, efforts being made by India and Pakistan to reduce tension and reach agreement on various confidence-building measures through a series of regular talks between their senior foreign affairs officials. That is a process which we earnestly encouraged both sides to pursue in spring 1990. Both bilaterally and with our European Comunity partners, we have reiterated our concerns about tension between India and Pakistan, about the activities of terrorist groups and those who support them and about human rights abuses.
We are aware of Indian claims, and Pakistani denials, that Kashmiri extremists are receiving support from Pakistan with training and supply of weapons. We have indicated to the Pakistan Government the concern that it would cause in Britain if official support were to be given.
My hon. Friend referred to some of the historical background to the Kashmir problem and to the United Nations resolutions on Kashmir in 1948 and 1949. Those resolutions, which were agreed to by India and Pakistan and supported by Britain, envisaged troop withdrawals on both sides and a plebiscite under United Nations auspices of all the inhabitants of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir on whether to accede to India or Pakistan. non-implementation of the resolutions was due, at least partly, to the failure of both sides to implement the provision on troop withdrawals.
Pakistan maintains that the status of Kashmir can be decided only by a plebiscite in line with United Nations resolutions. We believe that it is for India and Pakistan to decide how to resolve their dispute over Kashmir, one element of which involves disagreement over whether Kashmiris have been able to express their wishes fully already, or whether a further test of opinion should be held. It is not for us to attempt to prescribe how the problem should be resolved, but the difficulties of holding the plebiscite envisaged in the United Nations resolutions are obvious. The fact is that the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir is now, in effect, split into several district parts. It has been divided de facto between India and Pakistan by the line of control, and another part has been ceded to China.
India argues that the 1947 accession of the former princely state to India was legal, that ratification of the accession in 1954 by the elected Kashmir constituent assembly fulfilled its commitment to a test of popular opinion and that Pakistan had failed to implement the basic provision of a complete withdrawal of forces.

1355
Our position on the status of Kashmir remains that this should be settled by peaceful agreement between India and Pakistan, in accordance with their agreement in 1972 at Simla, under which both countries
"resolved to settle their differences through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed between them."
This agreement also looked forward to a
"final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir."
I welcome the terms in which my hon. Friend raised the problem of the continuing violence in Kashmir. We share the widespread concern about this. We have consistently condemned those who use violence for political ends, and we support the Indian Government in their efforts to deal with the serious challenge from terrorist violence in Kashmir. At the same time, we continue to encourage the Indian Government to exercise the greatest restraint in dealing with the serious problems facing them. The maintenance of law and order in the face of violent challenge from certain Kashmiri extremist groups is clearly difficult. Abuses have certainly occurred on both sides. I assure the House that, in our contacts with the Indian Government, we have made clear the importance that we attach to human rights being respected.
We have emphasised the importance of allowing independent investigations by human rights organisations, such as Amnesty International, and of being seen to bring
1356
to justice members of the security forces who may have misbehaved. The Indian Government have told us that allegations of abuses are thoroughly investigated, that they are concerned to bring to book those responsible for wrongdoing and that action has already been taken against a number of security force personnel.
I assure the House that we will continue to watch the situation in Kashmir closely and to encourage India and Pakistan to find a peaceful solution to this dispute. We remain ready to help, if both sides would like us to do so. We hope that the process of confidence-building between India and Pakistan will continue and that this will help to create the right conditions to bring an end to the violence and lead to a lasting settlement of a dispute which threatens political stability in India and Pakistan and has blighted the lives of many in the sub-continent.
Mr. Speaker: Before I adjourn the House, may I take this opportunity to wish all right hon. and hon. Members a good recess and a restful holiday? May I, on behalf of all hon. Members, express our thanks to the Officers and staff of the House, who serve with such dedication. None of us can foretell the future, but I hope that we shall all assemble here again on 14 October.
It being Three o'clock, MR. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Resolution [19 July], till Monday 14 October.

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Inward Investment
  Sir Eldon Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much investment has been made in Northern Ireland by American-controlled companies in each of the past five years; and to what extent these investments have been made as a result of the support made available from United States public funds.

  Mr. Needham
  The table shows the investment made in Northern Ireland by American-controlled companies in each of the past five financial years. Two of these investments involved support from United States public funds.

  Year

  Total investment (£,000)

  No. of investments

  1986–87

  40,335

  6

  1987–88

  21,541

  5

  1988–89

  103,933

  8

  1989–90

  212,674

  12

  1990–91

  74,659

  7

  Eastern Health and Social Services Board
  Mr. A. Cecil Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland since the introduction of privatisation into services provided for the Eastern health and social services board, what proportion of financial savings have been allocated to actual patient care and improvement of medical services.

  Mr. Hanley
  The health and personal social services in Northern Ireland have not been subject to a privatisation policy. There is, however, a requirement on health and social services boards to test the efficiency of their domestic, catering and laundry services through competitive tendering. All financial savings arising from competitive tendering contribute to the overall resources available to each unit of management to deliver its operational plan, the emphasis of which is actual patient care and improvement of medical services.

  Stevens Inquiry
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much has been spent on the Stevens inquiry to date; and which Department is meeting the cost.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  I understand that, up to 3 July, the cost of the Stevens inquiry has been £868,480. As is normal for such inquiries, the Police Authority for Northern Ireland is meeting the cost.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons were arrested as a724
  result of the Stevens inquiry; how many have been charged; how many have been brought to trial; how many of those tried have been found guilty; how many have been released from custody and of them how many are on bail; and how many are still in custody.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Hazardous Waste
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will now seek to have made available to his Department copies of the environmental audits carried out by companies in Northern Ireland which produce(a) toxic and (b) hazardous and special wastes.

  Mr. Needham
  Where such audits are carried out by companies in Northern Ireland, it is the Department of Environment for Northern Ireland's intention to seek to have copies made available.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Londonderry, East of 17 July,Official Report, column 212, on information on environmental impact assessments, if he has obtained copies of the published information referred to for his departmental library.

  Mr. Needham
  Copies of the published information referred to are not held in the departmental library; they are held by the environment service where they are readily available to officials who may require access to them.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, further to his answer to the hon. Member for Londonderry, East,Official Report, 17 July, column 212–13, what steps were taken by the councils through whose areas the hazardous waste referred to passed to ensure that it is being transported in accordance with current regulations.

  Mr. Needham
  The transport of hazardous waste by road in Northern Ireland is subject to the provisions of regulations for which the enforcing authority is the Department of Economic Development.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, further to his answer to the hon. Member for Londonderry, East,Official Report, 17 July, column 212, if he will list the types of hazardous waste imported into Northern Ireland from the Irish Republic in 1988–89 and 1989–90; by what means it was disposed of; and whether those council areas through which it passed monitored its passage within their areas, and its disposal.

  Mr. Needham
  The information requested is given in the table. In most cases, the substances are chemically treated and sludge wastes which arise as a result of this treatment are landfilled under the close supervision of the relevant district councils. The passage through a district council area is not monitored by district councils.

  Substances

  Method of disposal

  Acqueous solution/Suspension of low level pesticides (plant washings).

  Treated in plant for disposal to landfill in Northern Ireland.

  Ammonia corrosive liquid.

  Treated with sulphuric acid in plant.

  725

  Substances

  Method of disposal

  Empty plastic containers of Escadulent material containing Esthyl methacrylate, Hydroxypropyl, Polyurethane, Iscoynate, Acrylic acid.

  Repacked and sent to England for treatment and disposal.

  Cupid acid.

  Sent to England for re-cycling.

  Printed circuit board effluent sludge.

  Treated in plant and precipitate sent for disposal to landfill in Northern Ireland.

  Mercury contaminated waste.

  Treated in plant—Mercury extracted for re-use.

  Copper hydroxide.

  Sent to England for re-cycling.

  Chlorinated solvents.

  Sent to England for re-cycling.

  Non-chlorinated solvents.

  Sent to England for re-cycling.

  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will outline the consideration given by any Government Department in Northern Ireland to the EC draft directive on the incineration of hazardous wastes and indicate what consultations there have been between Government officials and the European Commission on the implications of such a directive for any proposals for a hazardous waste incinerator in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Needham
  Proposals for a directive on the incineration of hazardous waste have yet to be placed before the European Council, although it is understood that a submission will be made shortly.

  Officials in the Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland have been kept informed of the details of discussions on the draft directive. Any proposals for a hazardous waste incinerator in Northern Ireland would have to comply fully with emission standards and controls set out in any such new directive.

  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether any Northern Ireland Government Department has been briefed or sought information on the study by the small area health statistics unit at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine on possible links between pollution from waste incinerators and ill health in the community.

  Mr. Hanley
  The Department of Health and Social Services is represented on the steering committee which oversees the work of the small area health statistics unit. It is therefore aware of all studies being undertaken by the unit.

  Maydown Incinerator
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will take steps to ensure that the slag to be produced by the proposed incinerator at Maydown, Londonderry, will be harmless to the environment.

  Mr. Needham
  Details of the slag to be produced by the proposed incinerator and proper safeguards for the handling of such material will become available only if and when Du Pont (UK) Ltd. submits a planning application and accompanying environmental statement.
  726
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what types of(a) toxic, (b) hazardous and (c) other special wastes the proposed incinerator at Londonderry will burn; and what is the temperature needed and for what periods to destroy each of those wastes.

  Mr. Needham
  The specific types of waste which will comprise the feedstock material for the proposed incinerator and the design details of the plant capable of safely handling such waste will have to be contained in any environmental impact assessment. The requirements set by the Government will ensure the degree of burn-out achieved at any such incinerator will be sufficient properly to destroy all material for which the plant is designed.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Londonderry, East, of 17 July,Official Report, column 210, on the expected lifetime of the Maydown incinerator, what is his estimate of the amount of waste which could be burnt in the incinerator over its lifetime.

  Mr. Needham
  Until the company submits details of the intended plant capacity that may be proposed for any incinerator, it is not possible to estimate the total quantity of material which might be burnt at any such incinerator over its lifetime.

  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether the IDB or the Department of Economic Development have any plans to provide funding for the Du Pont company's proposed hazardous waste incinerator; and what discussions they have had with the company about possible funding for such a project.

  Mr. Needham
  The company has approached the Industrial Development Board about possible financial assistance for its proposed hazardous waste incinerator. Negotiations have not yet been concluded.

  Flood Damage
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will publish a table showing the sums of public money expended in (1) Strabane area, (2) Ballycastle area and (3) the rest of Northern Ireland after the floods of 1987 and last year; how many persons received such sums and for what purposes; for Department of Health and Social Security payments what sums were paid in(a) grants and (b) loans and how much of the loans have been repaid to the latest available date; and whether there are any differences in Government action in the different situations.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Racial Discrimination
  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has concluded his consideration of the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights' recommendation that racial discrimination be made unlawful in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The recommendation that racial discrimination be made unlawful in Northern Ireland was
  727
  contained in the SACHR second report on religious and political discrimination in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State wrote to the chairman of SACHR on 23 July proposing a meeting between officials and the commission to discuss the Government's response to this and a number of other recommendations contained in the report.

  Voluntary Grammar Schools
  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the category B expenditure grants paid to each of the voluntary grammar schools and their numbers of fee paying and non-fee paying pupils for each school year since 1988.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information is as follows:

  1988–89 school year

  School

  Category B grants paid £

  Fee paying pupils

  Non-fee paying pupils

  Armagh Royal

  243,713

  43

  458

  Armagh St. Patrick's Grammar

  293,463

  51

  669

  Ballymena Academy

  405,227

  18

  1,113

  Ballymena, St. Louis Grammar

  282,040

  2

  912

  Ballymoney, Dalriada

  294,737

  15

  771

  Ballynahinch Assumption

  248,335

  9

  691

  Bangor Grammar

  314,472

  36

  865

  Belfast, Bloomfield Collegiate

  179,891

  22

  520

  Belfast, Campbell College

  440,606

  106

  478

  Belfast, Christian Brothers

  426,443

  34

  1,096

  Belfast, Dominican College

  275,287

  14

  782

  Belfast High School

  272,463

  12

  730

  Belfast, Hunterhouse College

  212,320

  129

  560

  Belfast, Methodist College

  773,910

  138

  1.458

  Belfast, Our Lady and St. Patrick's

  361,991

  12

  904

  Belfast, Royal Academical Institution

  489,258

  45

  858

  Belfast, Royal Academy

  636,237

  46

  1,250

  Belfast, St. Dominic's High School

  349,958

  15

  900

  Belfast, St. Malachy's College

  392,487

  11

  911

  Belfast, Strathearn

  219,177

  6

  598

  Belfast, Victoria College

  262,184

  65

  600

  Coleraine Academical Institution

  366,046

  134

  834

  Coleraine, Loreto College

  248,859

  10

  697

  Donaghmore, St. Joseph's Grammar

  99,981

  16

  263

  Downpatrick, St. Patrick's Grammar

  183,965

  13

  589

  Dungannon Royal

  303,152

  29

  549

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Boys'

  197,028

  11

  690

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Girls'

  183,699

  13

  672

  Dunmurry, Rathmore Grammar

  350,238

  23

  1,041

  Enniskillen Convent

  219,193

  1

  746

  Enniskillen, Portora Royal

  231,547

  27

  314

  Enniskillen, St. Michael's

  240,806

  17

  664

  Garron Tower, St. Macnissi's College

  205,749

  21

  529

  Holywood, Sullivan Upper

  348,720

  18

  984

  Kilkeel, St. Louis High

  128,174

  21

  266

  Larne Grammar

  237,915

  17

  614

  Lisburn, Friends' School

  301,811

  46

  820

  Lisburn, Wallace High

  394,991

  20

  1,060

  Londonderry, Foyle College

  289,168

  35

  757

  Londonderry, St. Columb's College

  536,879

  7

  1,537

  Londonderry, Thornhill College

  429,111

  20

  1,289

  Lurgan, St. Michael's Senior High

  167,043

  5

  403

  Magherafelt, Rainey Endowed

  211,321

  8

  536

  Magherafelt, St. Mary's Convent

  289,582

  11

  940

  Newry, Abbey Grammar

  233,459

  6

  705

  Newry, Our Lady's Grammar

  184,307

  12

  755

  Newry, Sacred Heart Grammar

  226,906

  9

  769

  728

  1988–89 school year

  School

  Category B grants paid £

  Fee paying pupils

  Non-fee paying pupils

  Newry, St. Colman's College

  237,829

  26

  748

  Omagh Christian Brothers'

  227,145

  9

  754

  Omagh, Loreto Convent

  264,875

  9

  808

  Portstewart Dominican College

  150,428

  46

  317

  Strabane Convent Grammar

  164,192

  12

  444

  1989–90 school year

  School

  Category B grants paid £

  Fee paying pupils

  Non-fee paying pupils

  Armagh Royal

  258,771

  58

  442

  Armagh St. Patrick's Grammar

  309,385

  36

  667

  Ballymena Academy

  435,680

  22

  1,098

  Ballymena, St. Louis Grammar

  319,190

  3

  946

  Ballymoney, Dalriada

  323,114

  14

  763

  Ballynahinch Assumption

  266,720

  17

  704

  Bangor Grammar

  354,824

  37

  830

  Belfast, Bloomfield Collegiate

  202,529

  22

  570

  Belfast, Campbell College

  412,396

  131

  502

  Belfast, Christian Brothers

  478,402

  31

  1,084

  Belfast, Dominican College

  310,162

  13

  788

  Belfast High School

  278,303

  33

  672

  Belfast, Hunterhouse College

  238,407

  94

  511

  Belfast, Methodist College

  833,236

  147

  1,491

  Belfast, Our Lady and St. Patrick's

  410,559

  21

  945

  Belfast, Royal Academical Institution

  519,440

  46

  846

  Belfast, Royal Academy

  699,557

  28

  1,243

  Belfast, St. Dominic's High School

  390,899

  12

  865

  Belfast, St. Malachy's College

  433,089

  15

  864

  Belfast, Strathearn

  248,988

  3

  636

  Belfast, Victoria College

  281,805

  62

  554

  Coleraine Academical Institution

  402,220

  96

  764

  Coleraine, Loreto College

  278,461

  9

  709

  Donaghmore, St. Joseph's Grammar

  110,646

  14

  262

  Downpatrick, St. Patrick's Grammar

  210,594

  8

  629

  Dungannon Royal

  331,810

  44

  545

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Boys'

  222,558

  10

  691

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Girls'

  213,209

  11

  725

  Dunmurry, Rathmore Grammar

  396,293

  14

  1,093

  Enniskillen Convent

  245,074

  6

  734

  Enniskillen, Portora Royal

  252,344

  19

  308

  Enniskillen, St. Michael's

  261,543

  12

  676

  Garron Tower, St. Macnissi's College

  225,173

  23

  517

  Holywood, Sullivan Upper

  388,198

  17

  990

  Kilkeel, St. Louis High

  134,699

  26

  227

  Larne Grammar

  249,192

  26

  568

  Lisburn, Friends' School

  328,602

  52

  816

  Lisburn, Wallace High

  429,965

  19

  1,084

  Londonderry, Foyle College

  327,808

  22

  763

  Londonderry, St. Columb's College

  582,500

  25

  1,503

  Londonderry, Thornhill College

  463,990

  30

  1,245

  Lurgan, St. Michael's Senior High

  174,205

  7

  392

  Magherafelt, Rainey Endowed

  223,617

  18

  541

  Magherafelt, St. Mary's Convent

  324,724

  10

  957

  Newry, Abbey Grammar

  263,235

  10

  677

  Newry, Our Lady's Grammar

  206,559

  12

  761

  Newry, Sacred Heart Grammar

  257,504

  6

  809

  Newry, St. Colman's College

  261,195

  23

  754

  Omagh Christian Brothers'

  258,129

  15

  758

  Omagh, Loreto Convent

  303,213

  12

  840

  Portstewart Dominican College

  161,779

  52

  338

  Strabane Convent Grammar

  181,566

  8

  451

  729

  1990–91 school yea (8-month period)

  School

  Category B grants paid £

  Fee paying pupils

  Non-fee paying pupils

  Armagh Royal

  187,701

  47

  501

  Armagh St. Patrick's Grammar

  239,073

  2

  738

  Ballymena Academy

  332,780

  11

  1,148

  Ballymena, St. Louis Grammar

  248,949

  0

  959

  Ballymona, Dalriada

  239,696

  2

  777

  Ballyneyhinch Assumption

  205,914

  0

  780

  Bangor Grammar

  265,360

  13

  870

  Belfast, Bloomfield Collegiate

  162,989

  8

  620

  Belfast, Campbell College

  302,079

  93

  597

  Belfast, Christian Brothers

  351,263

  4

  1,137

  Belfast, Dominican College

  240,567

  0

  867

  Belfast High School

  214,612

  1

  706

  Belfast, Hunterhouse College

  172,623

  62

  547

  Belfast, Methodist College

  609,615

  100

  1,549

  Belfast, Our Lady and St. Patrick's

  302,409

  0

  994

  Belfast, Royal Academical Institution

  379,070

  14

  911

  Belfast, Royal Academy

  509,946

  15

  1,274

  Belfast, St. Dominic's High School

  279,433

  2

  871

  Belfast, St. Malachy's College

  308,918

  0

  876

  Belfast, Strathearn

  191,777

  3

  648

  Belfast, Victoria College

  207,479

  42

  609

  Coleraine Academical Institution

  298,475

  58

  790

  Coleraine, Loreto College

  215,095

  0

  745

  Donaghmore, St. Joseph's Grammar

  89,104

  0

  312

  Downpatrick, St. Patrick's Grammar

  158,743

  0

  638

  Dungannon Royal

  238,446

  30

  569

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Boys'

  183,396

  1

  728

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Girls'

  177,033

  0

  769

  Dunmurry, Rathmore Grammar

  308,664

  2

  1,206

  Enniskillen Convent

  195,484

  0

  765

  Enniskillen, Portora Royal

  174,606

  12

  331

  Enniskillen, St. Michael's

  204,249

  1

  688

  Garron Tower, St. Macnissi's College

  174,779

  7

  568

  Holywood, Sullivan Upper

  294,377

  1

  1,012

  Kilkeel, St. Louis High

  104,106

  11

  266

  Larne Grammar

  187,641

  6

  622

  Lisburn, Friends' School

  259,282

  37

  830

  Lisburn, Wallace High

  320,445

  6

  1,133

  Londonderry, Foyle College

  245,472

  13

  814

  Londonderry, St. Columb's College

  440,508

  2

  1,553

  Londonderry, Thornhill College

  362,556

  7

  1,289

  Lurgan, St. Michael's Senior High

  131,061

  0

  431

  Magherafelt, Rainey Endowed

  172,436

  1

  571

  Magherafelt, St. Mary's Convent

  252,610

  0

  990

  Newry, Abbey Grammar

  196,665

  2

  664

  Newry, Our Lady's Grammar

  162,707

  3

  791

  Newry, Sacred Heart Grammar

  196,045

  3

  810

  Newry, St. Colman's College

  210,270

  0

  782

  Omagh Christian Brothers'

  201,664

  0

  777

  Omagh, Loreto Convent

  226,334

  1

  861

  Portstewart Dominican College

  128,331

  23

  368

  Strabane Convent Grammar

  133,922

  2

  449

  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what was the amount of category A expenditure admitted for each of the voluntary grammar schools in Northern Ireland for each school year since 1989.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information is as follows:730

  Category A expenditure admitted for grant

  1989–90 (School year) £

  1990–911 (Eight month period) £

  Armagh Royal

  751,589

  516,078

  Armagh St. Patrick's Grammar

  937,720

  653,788

  Ballymena Academy

  1,499,902

  1,053,189

  Ballymena, St. Louis Grammar

  1,075,497

  782,492

  Ballymoney, Dalriada School

  1,083,466

  773,908

  Ballynahinch, Assumption Grammar

  868,418

  635,563

  Bangor Grammar

  1,156,739

  816,750

  Belfast, Bloomfield Collegiate

  741,887

  542,722

  Belfast, Campbell College

  839,106

  625,730

  Belfast, Christian Brothers'

  1,399,839

  972,402

  Belfast, Dominican College

  962,192

  695,087

  Belfast High School

  992,910

  687,535

  Belfast, Hunterhouse College

  949,744

  642,172

  Belfast, Methodist College

  2,302,121

  1,673,818

  Belfast, Our Lady & St. Patrick's

  1,138,880

  828,994

  Belfast, Royal Belfast Academical Institution

  1,292,245

  910,409

  Belfast Royal Academy

  1,740,888

  1,208,832

  Belfast, St. Dominic's High School

  1,177,290

  791,986

  Belfast, St. Malachy's College

  1,144,269

  796,050

  Belfast, Strathearn

  869,980

  624,987

  Belfast, Victoria College

  1,038,563

  732,448

  Coleraine Academical Institution

  1,168,740

  808,465

  Coleraine, Loreto College

  889,970

  665,440

  Donaghmore, St. Joseph's Grammar

  385,694

  279,930

  Downpatrick, St. Patrick's Grammar

  704,574

  520,821

  Dungannon Royal

  794,732

  563,270

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Boys'

  849,395

  600,398

  Dungannon, St. Patrick's Girls'

  773,625

  571,787

  Dunmurry, Rathmore Grammar

  1,291,737

  962,553

  Enniskillen, Convent Grammar

  849,899

  606,986

  Enniskillen. Portora Royal

  472,958

  322,231

  Enniskillen, St. Michael's College

  804,585

  554,063

  Garron Tower, St. Macnissi's College

  650,414

  472,663

  Holywood, Sullivan Upper

  1,271,642

  938,112

  Kilkeel, St. Louis Grammar

  424,290

  305,462

  Larne Grammar School

  866,543

  619,832

  Lisburn, Friends' School

  1,204,948

  840,527

  Lisburn, Wallace High

  1,375,556

  1,007,965

  Londonderry, Foyle College

  1,019,844

  736,727

  Londonderry, St. Columb's College

  1,780,366

  1,267,940

  Londonderry, Thornhill College

  1,550,162

  1,107,787

  Lurgan, St. Michael's Senior High

  655,700

  462,716

  Magherafelt Rainey Endowed

  763,579

  542,845

  Magherafelt, St. Mary's Convent

  1,146,756

  828,314

  Newry, Abbey Grammar

  819,377

  593,304

  Newry, Our Lady's Grammar

  864,763

  631,933

  Newry, Sacred Heart Grammar

  919,539

  693,272

  Newry, St. Colman's College

  861,770

  635,856

  Omagh, Christian Brothers'

  916,202

  675,480

  Omagh, Loreto Convent

  916,969

  660,344

  Portstewart, Dominican College

  517,616

  380,137

  Strabane, Convent Grammar

  547,553

  393,677

  731
  1Prior to 1990–91 the funding of voluntary grammar schools was determined on a school year basis (August to July). In 1990–91 the funding period was reduced to a eight months (August to March) so that, when local management of schools was introduced on 1 April 1991, funding would be on the same basis as for other schools (ie April to March).

  Schools (Capital Work)
  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the primary and secondary schools which have had tenders for major capital work approved and the amount involved in each case in 1989, 1990 and 1991.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information is as follows:

  Tender amount approved £ million

  1989

  Primary Schools

  All Saints (Tattysallagh) Omagh

  0·437

  Grange, Kilkeel

  0·223

  St. Anne's, Finaghy

  1,229

  St. Anne's, Strabane

  0·691

  St. Mary's, Aughnacloy

  0·329

  St. Patrick's, Dungannon

  1·626

  Secondary Schools

  Banbridge Academy

  4·400

  Drumcree High, Portadown

  1·800

  Dundonald Boys' High

  2·400

  Friends' School, Lisburn

  1·235

  Glengormley High

  3·100

  Loreto College, Coleraine

  2·200

  Movilla High, Newtownards

  4·250

  Omagh Academy

  3·200

  Our Lady's Grammar, Newry

  4·299

  Victoria College, Belfast

  0·378

  1990

  Primary Schools

  Hollybush, Londonderry

  0·709

  Langfield, Drumquin

  0·320

  Secondary Schools

  Drumcree High, Portadown

  0·218

  Lagan College, Belfast

  2·788

  Larne Grammar

  3·126

  Loreto Convent Grammar, Omagh

  1·450

  Orangefield High, Belfast

  3·443

  St. Mark's High, Warrenpoint

  2·899

  St. Mary's Girls' High, Downpatrick

  2·216

  St. Michael's Grammar, Enniskillen

  3·051

  1991

  Primary Schools

  Star of the Sea, Belfast

  0·986

  St. Joseph's Belfast

  0·760

  St. McCartan's, Loughinisland

  0·370

  St. Patrick's Mullinahoe

  0·406

  St. Tierney's Roslea

  0·422

  Secondary Schools

  Ballyclare

  3·443

  Castelderg

  2·100

  St. Columb's College, Londonderry

  3·051

  St. Mary's High, Limavady

  0·199

  Prisoners (Searches)
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what was the number of strip searches made on female persons in Her Majesty's prison 732
  Maghaberry monthly since March 1991; what were the numbers of persons involved and the number of times each person was searched; what prison contraband, smuggled item, or illegal correspondence was discovered in any search; in how many cases prisoners refused to be searched and had to be restrained while the search was being conducted; and what were the reasons for each search.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Details of the number of, and reasons for, strip searches of female prisoners in Her Majesty's prison Maghaberry from June 1990 to March 1991 have already been provided,Official Report, columns 428–29, 7 May 1991. Details from April 1991 are as follows:

  April 1991

  May 1991

  June 1991

  Number of Searches

  Total number of searches carried out

  35

  25

  33

  Total number of inmates searched

  26

  19

  24

  Number of prisoners searched once

  17

  15

  18

  Number of prisoners searched twice

  9

  3

  4

  Number of prisoners searched more than twice

  Nil

  1

  2

  Reasons for search

  First admission on remand/awaiting trial

  6

  5

  5

  First admission on sentence/final discharge

  16

  8

  13

  Attending remand court

  Nil

  1

  Nil

  Attending trial

  2

  Nil

  Nil

  Inter-prison visits

  4

  4

  8

  Following prison visits

  1

  Nil

  Nil

  Pre-release home leave

  4

  6

  7

  Compassionate home leave

  Nil

  Nil

  Nil

  Visits to outside hospital

  Nil

  Nil

  Nil

  Returning from bail application

  Nil

  Nil

  Nil

  Attendance at court for bail

  Nil

  1

  Nil

  Fines paid

  2

  Nil

  Nil

  Working out scheme

  Nil

  Nil

  Nil

  Bail granted

  Nil

  Nil

  Nil

  No prohibited article was found during these searches. One prisoner refused to be searched.

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information requested is as follows:
  733

  Total

  Disproportionate cost

  Undertaking to write

  Other reasons

  Referred to next steps agency

  November 1989 to October 1990

  1,140

  24

  23

  16

  0

  November 1990 to 25 July 1991

  1,030

  21

  25

  22

  7

  Teaching Costs
  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what were(a) the sums allocated to each secondary school in Northern Ireland to fund teaching costs in each school year since 1989, (b) the numbers of pupils in each school in each year and (c) the numbers of approved teaching posts.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Heart Operations
  Rev. Ian Paisley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many emergency heart operations have been carried out at the Royal Victoria hospital, Belfast in the past six weeks; and if he will break down these by how many operations were performed by each specialist surgeon.

  Mr. Hanley
  The information requested is not held centrally. The hon. Gentleman may wish to contact Mr. Norman Ferguson, the chairman of the Eastern health and social services board.

  Roe Valley Hospital
  Rev. Ian Paisley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on proposals for the future of Roe Valley hospital, Limavady.

  Mr. Hanley
  There are no proposals at present to change the services currently provided at the Roe Valley hospital.

  I understand that the Western board is presently undertaking a review of health and social care provisions in the Limavady area. When this is completed any proposals affecting services at the hospital will be the subject of full consultation with all interested parties.

  Power Station Sales
  Mr. Temple-Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when Her Majesty's Government intend to initiate the sale of the four power stations to trade purchasers; and when he expects the sale to be completed.

  Mr. Needham
  The first step in the process is being taken today with the issue of the preliminary memorandum. Prospective bidders will be afforded a period of four weeks in which to register an interest. Following the screening of responses, the information memorandum, on which the firm bids will be based, will issue to competing bidders at the beginning of September 1991. On the basis of the present programme all bids will require to be entered by the end of October. Completion of the sale of the power stations will, of course, be subject to Parliament's consideration of the draft Electricity (NI) Order and I hope to bring this before the House before the end of the year.
  734

  Advice Agencies
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what measures he is taking to ensure voluntary legal advice-giving agencies in Northern Ireland can continue to provide their services.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 17 July 1991]: There are no plans to change the funding arrangements of legal advice-giving agencies in Northern Ireland.

  UDR Four
  Mr. Stanbrook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about his consideration of the case of the Ulster Defence Regiment Four.

  Mr. Brooke
  I have decided to use my power under the Criminal Appeal (Northern Ireland) Act 1980 to refer the cases of Winston Allen, Noel Bell, James Hegan and Neil Latimer to the Court of Appeal.

TRANSPORT

  Anti-spray Devices
  Mr. Allason
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what progress has been made in the introduction of anti-spray devices on heavy lorries.

  Mr. Chope
  There have been regulations requiring spray suppression devices to be fitted to vehicles and trailers in the United Kingdom since 1984. Largely as a result of the United Kingdom's initiative the European Community has now reached an agreement on an EC directive 91/226 EEC for spray suppression based closely on the British standard. There is a commitment written into the directive to develop more effective vehicle tests to reduce spray and research is continuing at the Transport and Road Research Laboratory, which should result in improvements in the future.

  Chelsea-Hackney Line
  Mr. Sedgemore
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for the development of the Chelsea-Hackney tube line; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  The Government remain of the view that the Chelsea-Hackney line will be needed to cater for current and forecast demand on the rail networks serving central London. It is also very conscious of the benefits which the line would have in terms of improving access to and from Hackney. The alignment is accordingly being protected through the planning system so that it can be taken forward when resources permit.

  Noise Prevention
  Sir Dudley Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much money was spent on noise prevention where the M40 motorway is concerned(a) before its original opening and (b) since its full implementation between Birmingham and London.

  Mr. Chope
  To date more than £2·7 million has been spent on specific noise mitigation measures on the M40 as a whole. It is not possible to give precise figures as noise amelioration measures are often an integral part of earthworks design and are not separately costed.

  MOT Test
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he intends to introduce into the MOT test carbon monoxide emission limits of 3·5 per cent. or within 0·5 per cent. of manufacturer's specifications, for cars made after 1986; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The carbon monoxide limits in the amendment to the Construction and Use Regulations, which were introduced on 4 July, are 4·5 per cent. for a vehicle first used on or after 1 August 1983 and 6 per cent. for a vehicle first used between I August 1975 and 31 July 1983. It is expected the exhaust emmission standards will become more stringent in future years, to reflect improved technology and stricter European Community requirements for new vehicles, particularly the introduction of catalytic converters on a large scale.

  British Rail Engineering Ltd.
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, under the terms of BREL's privatisation, what restrictions were placed on the extent of its liability for defects in design and manufacture; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  These were commercial decisions for British Rail, which negotiated the details of the sale.

  Railway Crossings (Scotland)
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many open railway crossings there are in Scotland; and if he will list all those which are still to be fitted with barriers in accordance with the Stott recommendations.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The Health and Safety Executive's railway inspectorate has records of 24 open crossings in Scotland. The only crossing to be dealt with under Professor Stott's recommendations is the automatic open crossing at Rosarie, in the Grampian region, which is to be converted to an automatic half barrier crossing. No other changes, including reductions to the speed of trains over crossings, were required in Scotland.

  Northern Ireland (Rail Links)
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans there are for improving Northern Ireland's rail links with the rest of Britain and Europe through routes in Scotland.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  It is for British Rail to come forward with any proposals.

  M12
  Sir Robert McCrindle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if it remains his intention that the proposed M12 should be a toll motorway.

  Mr. Chope
  Yes. My right hon. and learned Friend intends to hold a competition once he has identified a preferred route. Privately financed proposals will be invited and, if such a proposal proves to be the best option, the successful tenderer will be awarded a concession under the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991.

  Sir Robert McCrindle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has re-examined the justification for the proposed M12 between Chelmsford and the M25 in the light of recent traffic forecasts; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The justification for each motorway and trunk road scheme is kept under review throughout its development in the light of economic, environmental, traffic and other factors. That will happen in this case. As part of that process, roadside traffic interviews were held in June. They will also assist decisions about the capacity of the proposed motorway.

  Railway Rolling Stock
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much the late delivery by British Rail Engineering Ltd. of the new class 158 diesel trains has cost ScotRail in(a) lost revenue and (b) additional running costs in having to use old stock longer than planned for.

  Mr. Freeman
  This is a matter for the British Railways Board.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) how much faults of design and construction on the class 158 diesel trains have cost ScotRail in(a) lost revenue and (b) extra maintenance costs;

  (2) if he will instruct British Rail to take legal action against British Rail Engineering Ltd. to recover its financial losses caused by faults on, and the late delivery of, the new class 158 diesel trains.

  Mr. Freeman
  This is a contractual and commercial matter for British Rail.

  Mr. Prescott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when the British Rail Board will announce its decision on the tenders it has received for building a further 47 class 465 electrical multiple unit four-car sets.

  Mr. Rilkind
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Seafarers
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department is taking to ascertain(a) the total number of British seafarers, (b) the number of British seafarers employed on United Kingdom-registered ships and (c) the total number of seafarers of all nationalities employed on United Kingdom-registered ships.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The Department of Transport last year commissioned a study into the demand for, and supply of United Kingdom and Irish seafarers worldwide.
  737
  This includes detailed information about manning levels, of United Kingdom, Irish, and foreign seafarers, both on United Kingdom-registered vessels and on those registered abroad. I announced receipt of the report of that study on 11 June this year, in reply to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson-Smith). Summaries of the report are available in the Library.

  Virgin Airlines (Narita Airport, Tokyo)
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning Virgin's application for British Airways slots at Narita airport, Tokyo.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  None. Virgin Atlantic has made an application to the Civil Aviation Authority to vary British Airways' licence to serve Tokyo. In accordance with usual procedures the CAA has published the application, on 16 July, and has invited objections within 21 days.

  "A Bus Strategy for London"
  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, further to his answer to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman) of 22 July, on the responses received to the document, "A Bus Strategy for London"; how many respondents commented unfavourably on the Government's policy to deregulate and privatise the London bus services; and how many favourably.

  Mr. Freeman
  Approximately 60 per cent. of respondents, including the hon. Lady, commented unfavourably on the Government's plans to deregulate bus services in London. Although a number of respondents commented on the timing and method of implementing privatisation, few expressed a view on the merits or demerits of the policy.

  Duty-Free Goods
  Sir Barney Hayhoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the benefit derived from the duty free concession to transport operators of air and sea routes during each of the last five years; and whether he will make a statement.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  My Department's estimates of the impact of the abolition of duty-free allowances on air and sea transport have been based on commercially confidential information. My right hon. Friend will understand that in these circumstances I am unable to provide the information he is seeking.

  Sir Barney Hayhoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is his estimate of the proportion of the duty forgone by the Treasury on duty-free sales, particularly at ports and on aircraft, which(a) subsidise transport operators and (b) directly benefit the travellers who purchase such goods.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I regret that the information requested cannot be given since there is no reliable detailed information available on duty-free expenditure by travellers entering or leaving the United Kingdom.

  North Devon Link Road
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the traffic volume on the Ilminster bypass and on the A361 north Devon link road; and what plans he has to dual these roads.

  Mr. Chope
  The Ilminster bypass carries an average of 14,000 vehicles per day; the figure for the north Devon link road between Tiverton and Barnstaple varies between 7,500 and 11,500 over the different sections of the route.

  I announced on 8 July our intention to add a second carriageway to the Ilminster bypass, in the light of the forecast doubling of traffic volume by early in the next century.

  Traffic flows on the single carriageway section of the north Devon link road are not expected to grow to the same extent and the road will continue to have capacity to deal with the forecast flow. I therefore have no plans to dual it.

  Rail Electrification (West Yorkshire)
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a further statement on the West Yorkshire rail electrification.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I have nothing to add to my replies to the hon. Member of 18 June and 1 July.

  Channel Tunnel Rail Route
  Sir Philip Goodhart
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he will make it his policy to make an announcement about his views on the rail route to the channel tunnel at the earliest opportunity after a decision has been made even if Parliament is not sitting.

  Mr. Freeman
  We shall make an announcement on the rail link project as soon as possible.

  Road Traffic (Growth)
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what are the percentages of growth in road traffic for the years 1989, 1990 and 1991 to date in the following regions:(a) the Northern region, (b) Yorkshire and Humberside, (c) the north-west, (d) the east midlands, (e) the west midlands, (f) East Anglia, (g) the south-west, (h) the south-east and (i) Greater London.

  Mr. Chope
  My Department does not compile estimates of annual traffic growth by region. For Great Britain as a whole the figures are as follows:

  Per cent, change

  1988 to 1989

  + 7

  1989 to 1990

  0

  Ql 1990 to Ql 1991

  -3

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give

  739
  the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Speedlink
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many jobs will be lost in Scotland due to the closure of Speedlink on 8 July.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail estimates that between 90 and 100 posts will be withdrawn but that there will be no compulsory redundancies in Scotland as a result of the closure of Speedlink.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proportion of Speedlink's Scottish traffic has been lost to road as a result of its closure on 8 July; and how many lorry movements this represents.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail is still in consultation with some customers, but expects to lose around 13 per cent. of Speedlink's Scottish traffic to road. This represents about 20 lorry journeys per working day.

  Gibraltar Airport
  Mr. Marek
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether the European Commission proposals for the third stage of air liberalisation in Europe are intended to apply to Gibraltar airport; and if he will make it his policy that any agreement based upon the proposals should include Gibraltar.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The Commission's proposals have not yet been transmitted to the Council. We understand that they envisage the continued exclusion of Gibraltar until the airport agreement is implemented. We shall consider the terms of the proposals fully in due course and we expect that they will be extensively discussed by the Council of Ministers. We continue to believe that the implementation of the airport agreement represents the best way forward for Gibraltar.

  Barnstaple Bypass
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport by what date he expects to have paid all straightforward claims for compensation arising from compulsory acquisition of land for the Barnstaple bypass.

  Mr. Chope
  Full compensation has been paid in five cases. The remaining 73 cases will be completed and final payments made as soon as negotiations over the amount of compensation, and legal procedures, have been concluded.

  At least one advance payment of compensation has been made in over half these cases. Claims attract interest, at statutory rates, from the date of entry on to the land until payment is made.

  Double-line Railways
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will state the findings of Her Majesty's railway inspectorate, prior to 21 July, on the safety 740
  characteristics of single-line junctions between double-line railway routes, stating the operational advantages seen in such arrangements.

  Mr. Freeman
  The findings of Her Majesty's railway inspectorate on the safety characteristics of single line junctions between double line railway routes were set out in the published report of the chief inspecting officer's inquiry into the collision at Bellgrove junction on 6 March 1989. He said: "We consider that single lead junctions are acceptable in principle on safety grounds and we do not accept that improvements in the efficiency of operation and maintenance are intrinsically at variance with the maintenance of an adequate standard of safety". A copy of the report is in the Library of the House.

  Railway Signals
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will place in the Library a copy of the joint British Rail and Royal Holloway and Bedford New College study into incidents of signals passed at danger.

  Mr. Freeman
  I am arranging for copies of the executive summary of the report to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what extra training or route familiarisation train drivers receive when the signals and track on routes which they might normally be expected to work, have been significantly repositioned or remodelled.

  Mr. Freeman
  For most significant resignalling schemes details are given to drivers by special signalling notices. In exceptional cases BR provides video training or conductors.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many incidents there were of railway signals being passed at danger since 1979; and how many of those were(a) considered to be sufficiently serious to merit reporting to the railway inspectorate, (b) resulted in a derailment and (c) resulted in a collision involving one or more passenger trains.

  Mr. Freeman
  I understand from British Rail that there were 8,171 incidents of signals passed at danger (SPAD) over the years 1979–90. These involved 60 collisions and 124 derailments to trains of all types. There is no statutory requirement for operators to report SPAD incidents unless an accident occurs.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list all the single lead junctions on the railways in Scotland.

  Mr. Freeman
  This information is not readily available.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what type of signalling was in force at the time of the Newton, Glasgow rail accident on 21 July.

  Mr. Freeman
  Trains were signalled under track circuit block regulations and controlled by multiple aspect colour light signals equipped with the automatic warning system. The signalling at Newton is controlled by solid state interlocking.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if the railway inspectorate made adverse comments on
  741
  the singling of any specific double junctions proposed under the north Clyde track improvement and resignalling scheme;

  (2) if he will list those double junctions which have been or are to be converted to single lead junctions as part of the north Clyde track improvement and resignalling scheme.

  Mr. Freeman
  Five junctions were converted as part of this scheme—Bellgrove, Knightswood North, Hyndland North and South, and Westerton. The railway inspectorate discussed the conversions in detail with BR, and in most cases the BR view was accepted but in one case two extra signals were provided and one was moved. Extra controls were added.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport in how many incidents of railway signals being passed at danger in 1990, the signals in question had been repositioned or the track been remodelled less than three months before.

  Mr Freeman
  Out of 898 incidents on BR in 1990, nine occurred following signalling and/or track alterations.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many incidents of signals being passed at danger each year since 1989 took place on single lead junctions and involved passenger trains.

  Mr. Freeman
  Seven in 1990, and three in 1991.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many double junctions on British Rail were converted to single lead junctions each year since 1989; and on how many occasions the railway inspectorate approved such conversions.

  Mr. Freeman
  Three junctions were converted in 1990, and work is in hand to convert four this year. All conversions have been approved by HM railway inspectorate.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if any parts of the railway routes travelled by the trains involved in the Newton, Glasgow rail accident on 21 July had signalling problems as highlighted in the British Rail signal and telecommunications technical investigation report 91019.

  Mr. Freeman
  No.

  Rail Services
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations his Department has received on the allocation of grants to specified rail services; whether he intends to review subsidies with a view to introducing such provision; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  The Department received representation on this issue from the Central Transport Consultative Committee on 16 July and is considering them.

  Departmental Houses, Archway Road
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for the Department of Transport-owned houses in the Archway road area.

  Mr. Chope
  The Department is required by law to dispose of all its properties in the Archway road area as 742
  they are no longer needed for highway purposes. Some vacant commercial properties have already been sold. Options for disposing of the balance of the properties are being explored.

  A34
  Sir Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to make a decision about the proposed road improvements to the A34 by junction 13 on the M4 near Chieveley.

  Mr. Chope
  I hope it will be possible to announce a preferred route for the A34 Chieveley/M4 (junction 13) improvement in the early autumn.

  Pleasure Boats (Safety)
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the reasons for the delay of five years before pleasure boat operators have to implement his Department's safety guidelines.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Consultative documents for new life-saving appliance and survivability standards for small passenger ships have been issued which do not propose a delay for implementation of those standards for five years but put forward "phase-in" proposals over a five-year period. Approximately 1,000 ships and launches will be affected by these proposals. Some ships already comply with the new requirements. To impose a shorter "phase-in" period would not be realistic.

  Highway Code
  Mr. Jessel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what requirements apply to drivers of cars on giving way to persons riding bicycles across pedestrian crossings.

  Mr. Chope
  Drivers are required to give precedence to pedestrians, including those pushing bicycles, on a pedestrian crossing. No specific legal provisions apply in the case where the cyclist has not dismounted: both the driver and cyclist are required to show the same due consideration for other road users as on any other part of the carriageway.

  Buses
  Dame Jill Knight
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on his proposals to encourage greater use of buses and further investment in the bus manufacturing industry.

  Mr. Freeman
  Buses play an invaluable role in transporting large numbers of people going about their daily business. They will continue to be the major form of public transport in most urban areas and their greater use can play a significant part in reducing congestion and improving the environment.

  My Department is currently working on new advice to local authorities on a variety of traffic management measures designed to give buses advantage over other traffic. We intend to publish new guidance before the end of the year.

  We have recently set up a working group with local authorities and the bus industry to look at ways of encouraging more bus usage. Local authorities have been asked to identify bus priority schemes for credit approvals and we hope to be able to support some measures in 1992–93.
  743
  Investment in new buses is a matter for the operators, but it is clearly in their interests to ensure they provide as modern and attractive facilities as possible. London Buses Ltd. plans to spend up to £30 million on bus purchase and bus refurbishment in 1991–92.

  Environmental standards for vehicles are of the utmost importance. We have taken the lead in the EC in pressing for tough new emission standards for large diesel-engined vehicles.

  We are currently investigating the possibility of improving the in-service checks on smoke emissions and the public are being encouraged to report to the traffic commissioners any heavy vehicles emitting excessive smoke.

  We are committed to the creation of a thriving bus industry, with high quality standards, which is capable of meeting the future needs of the travelling public.

  Crash Helmets
  Mr. Butcher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will seek information from each other European Community country where crash helmets for motorcyclists are not compulsory about the increase in the number of fatal and serious accidents to motor cyclists exceeding the number in the United Kingdom, on a comparable basis.

  Mr. Chope
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  London Underground (Safety)
  Mr. Janman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to receive a copy of Her Majesty's railway inspectorate's further study of the management of safety on the London Underground.

  Mr. Rifkind
  Her Majesty's Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways tells me that the report of the further study announced on the 23 May 1989, will be completed within the coming month. I will arrange for a copy of the report,

  Rate support grant

  Domestic rate income1

  Non-domestic rale income2

  £ million

  Per cent.

  Per cent.

  Per cent.

  Total

  1979–80

  33·7

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1980–81

  36·8

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1981–82

  31·2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1982–83

  28·4

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1983–84

  24·7

  (23)

  27·8

  (26)

  56·4

  (52)

  108·9

  1984–85

  23·7

  (21)

  31·0

  (27)

  59·9

  (52)

  114·6

  1985–86

  21·3

  (19)

  31·3

  (27)

  62·3

  (54)

  114·9

  1986–87

  56·9

  (36)

  33·3

  (21)

  68·9

  (43)

  159·1

  1987–88

  61·4

  (36)

  35·9

  (21)

  71·1

  (42)

  168·4

  1988–89

  61·5

  (35)

  40·2

  (23)

  76·0

  (43)

  177·7

  1989·90

  77·2

  (46)

  32–8

  (20)

  57·6

  (34)

  167·6

  1 Domestic rates include rebates but are net of domestic rate relief grant.

  2 Non-domestic rates are net of disabled non-domestic relief grant and enterprise zone grant.

  Sir Geoffrey Finsberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish a list of the 15 local authorities which have the greatest arrears in collection of(a) community charge and (b) rents, indicating in each case the political control of the authority.

  Mr. Portillo
  Local authorities have been asked to report to the Department on their arrears of community charge at 31 March 1991 by 7 August. For details of local authorities' cumulative rent arrears, I refer my hon. Friend 744
  entitled "The Management of Safety on London Underground Ltd.—A Further Study", to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Lead-free Petrol
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the amount of lead-free petrol used as a percentage of total petrol consumption in(a) the United Kingdom and (b) each of the other European Community countries.

  Mr. Baldry
  I have been asked to reply.

  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside to my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Sir H. Rossi) on 24 July 1991.

ENVIRONMENT

  Greenhouse Gases
  Mr. Gould
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress the Government have made since September 1990 in the attempts to secure international action to reduce greenhouse gases; and what action the United Kingdom Government are taking independently to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases.

  Mr. Heseltine
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) on 19 July 1991, columns 375–76.

  Local Government Finance
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list(a) the rate support grant, (b) the non-domestic rate income and (c) the domestic rate income together with the percentages and totals for Tower Hamlets council in each year since 1979.

  Mr. Key
  No figures are available centrally for rate income for Tower Hamlets council before 1983–84.

  to the statement made by my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning on 21 February, Official Report, column 209. All the 15 authorities with the highest percentages of arrears outstanding at the end of 1989–90, the latest year for which figures are available, were Labour controlled at that time.

  Catalytic Converters
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what information he has on the price before and after taxation of an average motor car with and without a catalytic converter, with and without automatic transmission for(a) cars under 1300 cc, (b) cars over 1300 cc and under 2300 cc and (c) cars over 2300 cc; and what research he has undertaken into the effect of the extra cost relating to a catalytic converter on potential purchasers.

  Mr. Baldry
  The information required by my hon. Friend is not available to me. However, the estimated cost of an optional catalytic converter on a new car is approximately £350. The cost of an optional automatic transmission on a new car ranges from approximately £400 to over £800.

  Hedgerows
  Mr. Robert B. Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about the future of hedgerow protection.

  Mr. Baldry
  In our White Paper, "This Common Inheritance", the Government proposed new measures to give local planning authorities powers to safeguard key hedgerows. Subsequently, we issued a consultation paper—as part of our wider review of tree preservation policies and legislation—which gave further details of our proposals.

  As I explained to the House at the Report stage of the Planning and Compensation Bill, responses to the consultation were extensive and raised a range of basic issues. We explored these further in a series of meetings which I held with a number of interested parties during the spring, and have been giving careful attention to the various comments made.

  We have concluded that some of the criticisms made of our initial proposals have force: in particular that more comprehensive and systematic arrangements for protecting hedgerows are required; that the mechanics of the proposed new system should be refined; that payments for management should be targeted on hedgerows most likely to benefit, rather than be limited to those under threat of removal, and should reflect a wider range of management options; and that the burden of such payments should not fall on local authorities.

  We are therefore proposing measures which will address these criticisms, and now intend to go forward on a somewhat different basis from that set out in our consultation paper.

  The revised proposals would consist of two elements: a hedgerow notification scheme and separately administered and funded hedgerow management grants.

  The notification scheme would be administered by local planning authorities. It would require those who wish to remove hedgerows—or to reduce them in size beyond dimensions which would be laid down in regulations—to notify their local authority of their intention to do so. If the authority did not respond to the proposal within 28 days of such notification, the owner or occupier would be able to proceed. However, if the authority took the view that the hedgerow was of value for landscape, wildlife or historical reasons it would register it as such and inform the owner or occupier accordingly. Where a hedge was registered, the owner or occupier would be required to
  746
  retain the hedgerow concerned—and to undertake such work on it only as was consistent with its long-term retention and the maintenance of its amenity value. That would include, for example, trimming as part of normal agricultural operations.

  There would be a right of appeal to the Secretary of State against the decision of the local authority concerned to register a hedgerow. It would be open to the appellant to request that the Secretary of State set aside the registration on the grounds that retention of the hedgerow would pose a significant threat to the viability of the farm business.

  In the absence of a successful appeal, registration of a hedgerow would confer protection for a period of 10 years. Exemptions would apply for certain contingencies, such as disease, and for minor works such as moving a gateway, and it would be open to the local authority to revoke registration at any time it considered this appropriate.

  Removal of a hedgerow without notifying the local authority, removal of a hedgerow following registration, or unauthorised reduction in the size of a hedgerow would all constitute an offence.

  The proposed new arrangements therefore offer a comprehensive—but straightforward—means of safeguarding our hedgerow heritage, and I hope they will be widely welcomed.

  At the same time we recognise that some farmers may need assistance if they are to maintain or bring our hedgerow stock back into positive management. We are therefore proposing separate arrangements—administered by the Government or their agencies—to offer grants for that purpose aimed at encouraging landowners and farmers to reintroduce environmentally beneficial management, after taking account of existing grants.

  Eligible operations would include laying coppicing and —where appropriate—biennial trimming, but not the costs of annual maintenance where this was carried out as part of normal farming operations. In some cases the most environmentally beneficial course of action may be to leave a hedgerow in an unmanaged state for the immediate future.

  Separating arrangements for protecting hedgerows from aid for management will ensure that resources are used to best effect and are directed at those hedgerows which will gain most from positive management of this type, having regard to the character of the hedgerow concerned, local custom and practice and the most appropriate cycle of management.

  Administering the proposed system of protection separately from aid for management will therefore provide an essential element of flexibility in efforts to conserve this important feature of the countryside.

  I intend to make a fuller statement in due course, giving further details of the operation of both schemes. In the meantime, we shall be glad to receive comments from interested parties on our revised proposals, to assist in the process of refining and finalising them. To that end both I and my officials will be pleased to take part in further discussions as appropriate.

  So far as Wales is concerned, the Welsh Office proposes to ask the Countryside Council for Wales to explore the possibility of including a hedgerow management grants system as part of its proposals for the countryside stewardship scheme.

  These revised proposals fulfil our White Paper commitment, and mark a significant step in the task of

  747
  conserving the amenity of our rural areas. Some aspects—in particular the proposed notification procedures—will require primary legislation, and it is our intention to seek to introduce this when parliamentary time permits.

  Housing
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many housing starts and completions there were in each quarter of 1990 and in the first two quarters of 1991 in each English standard region.

  Mr. Yeo
  Figures up to the end of the first quarter of 1991 are in table 1.3 of the March quarter 1991 edition of "Housing & Construction Statistics: Great Britain: Part 1". A copy is in the Library. Corresponding figures for the second quarter of 1991 are not yet available.

  Radioactive Materials
  Mr. Marland
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the number of occasions in the last 10 years when radioactive sources escaped from the official control regime in the United Kingdom; whether these were reported separately as containing high, medium and low levels of activity, how many mislaid sources reached the metals reclamation industry; and how many prosecutions were instigated.

  Mr. Baldry
  Any person wishing to keep or use radioactive material in England and Wales must be registered by Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution under the Radioactive Substances Act 1960. Control is exercised by the imposition of strict limits and conditions contained in certificates of registration issued by HMIP following careful consideration of the relevant circumstances. One of these conditions requires the user to inform the police and the chief inspector of HMIP without delay if he believes the registered source has been lost or stolen and to take all practical steps to recover the source. All registered users are subject to inspection to ensure that the limns and conditions in certificates are being complied with.

  As an indication of the importance attached to the proper regulation of radioactive substances, the Government have recently increased the maximum penalties for offences under the Radioactive Substances Act to include an unlimited fine and imprisonment for five years on indictment.

  A small number of lost or stolen sources are notified to HMIP each year and reports on these cases will contain details of the levels of activity involved. All cases are thoroughly investigated by HMIP, which is aware of only one incident where a lost source may have entered the metals reclamation industry. In this case HMIP is currently investigating the circumstances surrounding a quantity of pelletised steel dust contaminated with radioactivity which was shipped from Ireland to Avonmouth in September 1990.

  There have been two prosecutions involving lost or stolen sources in the past 10 years. I am satisfied that the Radioactive Substances Act continues to provide a robust control over the use of radioactive materials in this country.

  Housing Association Grants
  Mr. Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish a table showing the amount of grant paid and the number of organisations grant-aided 748
  under section 50 of the Housing Act 1988 for each financial year since enactment, including the amount available in the current financial year.

  Mr. Yeo
  The Housing Corporation grant under section 50 of the Housing Act 1988 was as follows:

  £

  1989–90

  1,220,458,374

  1990–91

  1,738,092,695

  1991–921

  2,228,375,000

  1 Provisional.

  The total number of housing associations which are paid grants each year is not held by the Department. I have therefore asked the corporation to respond to the hon. Member direct. The subsequent reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House.

  Mr. Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish a table showing the amount of grant paid and the number of organisations grant-aided under section 87 of the Housing Associations Act 1985 for each financial year since enactment, including the amount available in the current financial year.

  Mr. Yeo
  I believe that the hon. Member is referring to the programme of promotional and advisory grants administered by the Housing Corporation under, principally, section 87 of the Housing Associations Act 1985. The level of the corporation's programme, financed by grant-in-aid from the Department, has been as follows for the years in question:

  £000s

  1985–86

  342·1

  1986–87

  509·7

  1987–88

  472·3

  1988–89

  586·3

  1989–90

  1,109·0

  1990–91

  2,699·5

  1991–92

  3,702·0

  Decisions on the allocation of funds to particular organisations and projects are entirely a matter for the Housing Corporation. I have therefore asked the corporation to write to the hon. Member about the number of organisations which have received grant.

  Co-operative Promotion Allowance
  Mr. Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish a table showing the amount of co-operative promotion allowance paid and the number of organisations to which it was paid in each financial year since its introduction, including the amount available in the current financial year.

  Mr. Yeo
  Co-operative promotion allowance is paid at the discretion of the Housing Corporation from the funds which the Department makes available to support development by housing associations. I have therefore asked the corporation to write to the hon. Member giving the information requested.

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what information he has on which local authorities have losses arising out of the BCCI closure, including the amounts in each case.
  749
  Mr. Key
  A number of authorities which had deposits with BCCI have written to the Department. Apart from that, I do not at present have any information beyond that which has appeared in the press.

  Catalytic Converters
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he has made of(a) the income to the Exchequer and (b) the financial benefit to the environment from the sale of catalytic converters; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  I have been asked to reply.

  Catalytic converters will be fitted to virtually all new petrol cars from the end of 1992. They will add to their cost and fuel consumption will increase, but there will be major improvements in local and regional air quality. It is impossible to predict (a) the effect these changes will have on revenue to the Exchequer, given the unpredictable nature of the market, and (b) the financial benefit to the environment at this time from the sale of these devices, given that many of the factors involved cannot be costed.

  Guest Houses
  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy to collect statistics on the number of guest houses that provide fewer than six bed spaces per night.

  Mr. Key
  No.

  Mortgage Repossessions
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many mortgage repossessions there have been in each county in England and Wales during each of the last 12 months for which records are available; and what were the annual figures for each of the last 12 months.

  Mr. Yeo
  Figures are not available in the form requested.

  The most recent figures published by the Council of Mortgage Lenders show that, for the United Kingdom as a whole, there were 16,560 repossessions in the six months ended 30 June 1990, and 27,330 in the six months ended 31 December 1990. Total repossessions in 1990 affected less than 0.5 per cent. of borrowers.

  Aggregates
  Mr. Walden
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the latest date by which comments on the recently published aggregates demand forecasts should be submitted to his Department for them to be taken into account in the revision of MPG6.

  Mr. Yeo
  My Department has not specified any time limit for comments to be made on the forecasts. But to enable views to be taken into account in the preparation of the draft revised guidelines we would welcome comments within the next four months.

  Mr. Alan Blumlein
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will place in the Library a copy of the letter from the Minister of State, Baroness Blatch, on the papers of the late electronics engineer Alan Blumlein.
  750
  Mr. Heseltine
  These papers are not the Government's responibility, and Baroness Blatch has not written a letter about them.

  Property Services Agency
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what impact "Options for Change" will have on the PSA work undertaken for Defence Works Services for the Ministry of Defence in Germany and the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Yeo
  It is clear that there will be an overall reduction in MOD's requirement for works services as a result of "Options for Change". The consequences for individual locations, and individual suppliers of services such as PSA, have still to be worked out.

  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what fee value of new business has been started by each of PSA's new business divisions since untying was introduced.

  Mr. Yeo
  Civil clients untied from PSA for major works from 1 April 1988. All MOD works services and civil minor works and maintenance were untied from 1 April 1990. Since untying PSAS businesses have been successful in winning work with total fee values as follows.

  £ million

  PSA Projects

  90·9

  Building Management

  18·7

  PSA International

  19·0

  The figures for building management and PSA International represent the fee value of work either won in competition or through negotiation. The figure for PSA projects represents the fee value of all new projects awarded since 1 April 1988 for civil and wider market clients and since 1 April 1990 for MOD by negotiation or competition.

  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the projected cost of privatising PSA; and what return is anticipated from the sale of any or all of the business divisions.

  Mr. Yeo
  The projected cost of preparing PSA for privatisation including the costs of the sales process depends on the strategy adopted. They are commercially sensitive estimates.

  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether any Crown property will be included in the sale of the PSA businesses as part of the assets of the organisation.

  Mr. Yeo
  Whether any properties will be sold with parts of PSA will depend on the particular needs of the organisations after privatisation. At the time of the Property Services Agency and Crown Suppliers Bill 17 freehold Crown properties were identified as being potentially transferable with the PSA, if needed. The great majority of existing PSA accommodation is leasehold.

  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the resignation of the PSA's chief executive.
  751
  Mr. Yeo
  Mr. Geoffrey Chipperfield, the current chief executive, has not resigned. His predecessor was Mr. Patrick Brown, who transferred on 26 June to become Permanent Secretary of the Department of Transport.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how much the Property Services Agency spent on hospitality in the financial years 1989–90 and 1990–91.

  Sir George Young
  PSA's expenditure on hospitality was as follows:

  £

  1989–90

  27,107

  1990–91

  51,268

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many, and at what cost, performance bonuses and merit payments were made to grade 5 and above civil servants in the Property Services Agency for 1989–90.

  Mr. Yeo
  Three bonus payments totalling £2,800 were made in 1989–90. Merit payments—performance range points—were also made to 16 staff at grade 5 level or above on the basis of their performance in that year. The annual cost of these payments amounted to £25,129 in 1990–91.

  Leases
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many statutory tenants there are in houses who are holding over from 14-year leases and with full repairing responsibilities.

  Sir George Young
  This information is not available.

  Redundancy Dowry
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether the redundancy dowry, referred to in his oral answer of 10 July,Official Report, columns 949–50. will (a) fully cover all the redundancy entitlement earned in Government service by the transferred staff and (b) be contained within a trust fund or funds fully independent to the purchasers of each business.

  Sir George Young
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him yesterday.

  Riverside Site, Twickenham
  Mr. Jessel
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he intends to give his planning decision on the Twickenham riverside site; and if he will inform the hon. Member for Twickenham of his decision no later than he informs the local planning authority and the developers.

  Mr. Yeo
  The inspector's report on the application by Marks and Spencer plc in relation to the site is currently under consideration and we hope to issue a decision shortly. I can also confirm that the issue of the decision will be co-ordinated, so that notification to the local planning authority, the applicant and the hon. Member for Twickenham are dispatched at the same time.

  Rented Housing
  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) if he will publish a table showing for each region in England his Department's assessment of the current shortfalls of rented housing in relation to local needs;

  (2) what is the deficiency in the quantity of housing available through housing associations and local authorities for rent in each region of England; what research is being carried out by his Department on the deficiency; and when he will report on the findings of such research;

  (3) what assumptions about the future rented housing demand he makes in determining the number of homes to be started by housing associations and local authorities each year; and on what factual information he bases those assumptions;

  (4) if he intends to prepare and publish a review of projected housing need in relation to this Department's funding of rented housing programmes;

  (5) if he will list the allocations his Department has made in 1990–91 and 1991–92 to increase the supply of rented homes in areas where housing shortages exist; the estimated number of additional homes that will result from these allocations and his Department's estimate of the shortages that will remain after these homes have been built;

  (6) what steps his Department takes to measure any shortfall between the supply and demand for rented housing provided by housing associations and local authorities each year.

  Sir George Young
  Estimates of need for subsidised housing are not susceptible to precise quantification, depending as they do both on subjective judgment of what constitutes need, and on factors affecting access to owner occupation, such as interest rates and house prices, which can vary in the short term. We nevertheless take account of indicators of housing need in the allocation of capital resources to housing associations—which are now the main providers of new subsidised housing—and to local authorities. The housing needs indicator, reviewed each year jointly by my Department, the Housing Corporation and the National Federation of Housing Associations, and used in allocation of resources to Housing Corporation regions, incorporates factors such as homelessness, overcrowding, the household-dwelling balance and the accessibility of owner-occupation; allocation of resources to associations within regions is a matter for the Housing Corporation, which takes these and other factors into account. The generalised needs index, used in allocation of resources to local authorities and determined following consultation with the local authority associations, also includes these factors, with a lower weighting because most authorities' capital expenditure is on renovation of their existing stock.

  Various projects in the Department's housing research programme are designed to improve our knowledge of housing need. I announced the capital allocations to local authorities for 1991–92 on 13 December, Official Report, columns 463–64, and the regional distribution of the Housing Corporation's approval development programme on 13 February, Official Report, columns 470–1. I shall write to the hon. Member with fuller etails of the

  753
  composition of the housing needs indicator and the generalised needs index and of the housing research programme.

  We have recognised that there are shortages of subsidised rented housing in some areas and we have provided resources for a substantial increase in output by housing associations, from 21,000 in 1989–90 to 40,000 in 1993–94; details are given in my Department's annual report (Cm. 1508), paragraphs 7.35 to 7.38 and figures 70 and 71. Availability of resources for subsidised housing is considered in the public expenditure survey each year.

  Birds
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what assumptions he has made about the origin of birds in his calculation of the numbers of captive birds of prey in the United Kingdom;

  (2) what proportion of captive birds of prey in the United Kingdom were (a) bred in captivity, (b) illegally imported and (c) taken unlawfully from the wild.

  Mr. Baldry
  Section 7 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act requires that all captive birds of the species listed in schedule 4 are registered with my Department. A prerequisite of registration is the provision of details of the origin of the bird. Over 75 per cent. of registered captive birds of prey were bred in captivity. Evidence that birds may have been illegally imported or taken unlawfully from the wild is passed to the enforcement authorities. No estimate is available of unregistered birds illegally held.

  Bottles
  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) if he will consult his counterparts in Sweden, Denmark and Germany to seek information on the ways in which they have encouraged the use of returnable, refillable bottles for drinks which are on sale in shops; and if he will investigate the feasibility of introducing such measures in the United Kingdom;

  (2) if he will make it his policy to persuade supermarkets to make greater use of refillable containers when selling drinks; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Government's White Paper on the Environment, "This Common Inheritance", stated that encouraging the re-use or recycling of materials was a priority. The Government recognise that the use of refillable beverage containers can make environmental and economic sense in certain circumstance. The White Paper also recognised that policies should be based on the best scientific and economic information. The Government have therefore commissioned a study by consultants of the implications of a deposit refund scheme for beverage containers. This includes studies of schemes in place in other countries.

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons,
  754
  (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Heseltine
  So far in this Session my Department has answered 2,899 written parliamentary questions. The figure for the comparable period in the last Session is 4,156. The other information requested is not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Non-domestic Rate
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish his best estimate of the actual total yield from the national non-domestic rate in(a) 1990–91 and (b) 1991–92.

  Mr. Portillo
  We currently estimate that the non-domestic rate yield in England will be about 11 billion for 1990–91 and £12.2 billion for 1991–92.

  Local Government Boundary Commission
  Mr. Jessel
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects the reports of the Local Government Boundary Commission covering Greater London and Surrey to be published.

  Mr. Key
  The commission has issued three sets of draft proposals which concern the Greater London/Surrey boundary. Public responses have been received and are being considered by the commission, after which it will submit reports to my right hon. Friend.

  Red Squirrel
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what action is being taken to prevent the further decline and regional extinction of the red squirrel from those areas of England which it was known to occupy 10 years ago.

  Mr. Baldry
  Under schedule 5 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act, the red squirrel is fully protected throughout Britain against killing, injuring, taking and selling. There are projects being carried out in various parts of England to determine the population dynamics of the red squirrel for conservation management purposes. Several of these projects receive support from public sources, and the results should assist the efforts being made by English Nature and others to conserve the species.

  Eco-labelling
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make it his policy that eco-labelling should start with raw materials rather than at the stage of manufacture.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Government are already committed to awarding eco-labels to products on the basis of the impact they have on the environment from the cradle to the grave. Analysis of the cradle stage will cover raw materials.

  Pesticides
  Mr. Faulds
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce regulations requiring local authorities to provide warnings by notice or broadcast in the areas concerned that pesticide spraying is to take place.

  Mr. Baldry
  Under the Control of Pesticides Regulations, all pesticide products must be approved by Ministers of six Government Departments, including my own, before they can be sold, supplied, stored, used or advertised. Appropriate conditions are attached to the approvals which, if followed, will ensure safe use of the pesticide. For example, some pesticides have specified re-entry times before which members of the public, or other unprotected individuals, should not be allowed access to treated areas.

  In addition to the specific controls through the approvals scheme, there are more general controls through the consents of the regulations. It is, for example, a requirement that the users of pesticides take all reasonable precautions to protect the health of human beings. This is not specified in a precise way because the user is best able to judge what is needed in the specific circumstances of his particular pesticide use. In some cases warning notices may be appropriate; in others they may be unnecessary, in yet others they may be inadequate if used alone.

  I am not aware of any considerations that would justify another layer of control of the kind suggested.

  Radon Gas
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what research has been undertaken into the effectiveness of the removal of radon gas from newly constructed dwellings; and if he will outline the results of the research.

  Mr. Yeo
  The Building Research Establishment is undertaking research into the practical building problems and the effectiveness of measures to combat radon gas in newly constructed dwellings. The findings of the research are being taken into account in revised guidance to support the Building Regulations, but final results will not be available until next year.

  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what evidence he has relating to the effect of radon gas on the life expectancy of people living in and around Dartmoor.

  Mr. Baldry
  The evidence for the health effects of radon gas in Dartmoor and elsewhere is provided by the National Radiological Protection Board. In particular, I refer my hon. Friend to the "Documents of the NRPB", Vol. I, Nos. 1 and 4, 1990, copies of which are in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish the new maps being prepared by his Department indicating where radon is to be found at its highest levels.

  Mr. Baldry
  Yes.

  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will outline the research evidence lying behind the setting of an advisory level of 200 becquerels in newly constructed dwellings.
  756
  Mr. Baldry
  The research evidence requested is set out in the National Radiological Protection Board publication "Documents of the NRPB", volume I, No. 1, 1990. Copies were placed in the Library on publication.

  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what method of site inspection he proposes to introduce to discover(a) whether radon is present, (b) in what quantities and (c) whether it is potentially dangerous to health.

  Mr. Baldry
  My Department funds the National Radiological Protection Board to carry out free surveys of the levels of radon in houses using passive etched-track detectors over a period of at least three months. The NRPB advises the householder of the danger to health according to the recorded radon level. There is no reliable method of predicting radon levels from site measurements before house construction.

  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what proposals he has to introduce under section C2 of the Building Regulations 1985 mandatory requirements for methods of construction so as to prevent the entry of radon gas into newly constructed dwellings;

  (2) what advice he is giving building control officers with regard to the reduction of radon gas to less than 200 becquerels.

  Mr. Yeo
  Regulation C2 of the Building Regulations 1985 requires precautions to be taken to avoid danger to health caused by substances found on or in the ground to be covered by the building. Interim guidance relating to radon was produced in June 1988 to support this requirement. A revised approved document for part C which specifically refers to radon will be published later this year, and this will be supported by more detailed guidance on methods of construction to limit the entry of radon gas into newly constructed dwellings.

  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the average annual dose of radon received by people in the United Kingdom, expressed in terms of milliSieverts; and what is the average in Devon.

  Mr. Baldry
  The average annual dose of radon received by people in the United Kingdom is 1 milliSievert effective dose equivalent. In Devon, the annual average dose is 3·5 milliSieverts.

  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about the migration of uranium daughter radionuclides in natural sediments; and to what extent there are similar elements with regard to radon gases in rock formations.

  Mr. Baldry
  The solid radioactive species in the uranium decay series do not migrate in dry rock formations. However, radon, which is a noble gas, readily migrates through fissured rocks, soils and sediments.

  Clean Council Campaign
  Mr. Faulds
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has received a copy of the Friends of the Earth's clean council campaign; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  I am not aware of any such campaign.

  Housing (Public Health)
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has received the document "Housing or Homelessness: a Public Health Perspective," published by the Faculty of Public Health Medicine; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Yeo
  My Department received this report in May. It raises matters of interest to the Department of Health as well as to my Department. We will give careful consideration to its recommendations.

  Community Charge
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many representations he has received seeking the introduction of a 100 per cent. rebate for the community charge for income support claimants from April 1992.

  Mr. Key
  We have received a number of representations in support of 100 per cent. rebates.

  Mineral Planning Guidance
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he intends to revise Mineral Planning Guidance note No. 3; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Yeo
  The Government have no immediate plans to revise the guidelines in MPG3, but we are continuing to monitor their use. Officials will be discussing their effectiveness with representatives of the industry and the local authorities later in the year.

  Direct Labour Organisations
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what provision there is for local authorities to privatise their direct labour organisations.

  Mr. Key
  There is no reason why a local authority which wishes to privatise its direct labour organisation should not do so. Direct labour organisations are in any case subject to compulsory competitive tendering under the Local Government Planning and Land Act 1980 and the Local Government Act 1988. My right hon. Friend is currently considering the scope for extending the list of services subject to competition.

  Planning Inspectorate
  Mr. Mans
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when the planning inspectorate will become an executive agency under the next steps initiative.

  Sir George Young
  We intend to launch the Planning Inspectorate executive agency on 1 April 1992.

  A main aim of the new agency will be to maintain the high quality of the planning inspectorate's work in relation to planning appeals and its other responsibilities. Inspectors' recommendations and decisions on planning cases will continue to be made by reference to statutory requirements and the Government's policy guidance. Their independence will not be impaired. Agency status will define more sharply the objectives which the inspectorate aims to achieve, and the greater management flexibility which it permits will promote greater efficiency.
  758
  The relationship between Ministers and the agency's chief executive, who will also be the chief planning inspector, will be set out in a framework document, which is now being prepared. The chief executive's post will be subject to open competition.

  Unleaded Petrol
  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what proportion of petrol sales in the United Kingdom now consist of unleaded petrol

  Mr. Baldry
  [holding answer 24 July 1991]: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside to my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Sir H. Rossi) on 24 July 1991.

  Thorne Moor
  Mr. Morley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) whether planning consents for peat digging on Thorne Moor near Doncaster have been reviewed under the Mineral Act 1981;

  (2) what proportion of Thorne Moor has planning permission for peat extraction; and what restoration of those areas subject to extraction has taken place.

  Mr. Yeo
  [holding answer 5 July 1991]: I shall write to the hon. Member.

  European Commission
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy to estimate the future cost to British business of each of the European Commission's environmental proposals currently under consideration.

  Mr. Baldry
  I shall write to the hon. Member.

  Biodiversity
  Mr. Gould
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress the Government have made since September 1990 in implementing their intended five-point plan for major studies on the status of the world's biodiversity.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The hon. Member is referring to the five-point plan described on page 52 of the environment White Paper.

  The first of the five points relates to the financing of a major study on the status of the world's biological diversity. This study is being carried out by the world conservation monitoring centre, Cambridge and is expected to be completed by the middle of next year. The other studies referred to in the White Paper have already been completed. They are summarised in the booklet entitled "Biological Diversity and Developing Countries: Issues and Options". This was published by the Overseas Development Administration last month. A copy is in the House of Commons Library.

  Housing Benefit
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what is the total amount of housing benefit reimbursed(a) to local authorities and (b) private

  759
  tenants in each financial year in (i) England and (ii) Great Britain in respect of rebates granted to council tenants since the beginning of the scheme;

  (2) what is the total amount of housing benefit in each financial year paid by local authorities in (a) England and (b) Great Britain to council tenants since the scheme began;

  (3) what is the total Government expenditure on housing benefit on a financial year basis in (a) England and (b) Great Britain.

  Mr. Yeo
  I will write to the hon. Gentleman.

  Environmental Challenges
  Mr. Gould
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what contributions the Government have made either independently or through the European Community to help central and eastern Europe cope with environmental challenges since September 1990; and if he will make a statement.

  (2) in what specific ways since September 1990 the Government have now established a strict environmental regime for waste disposal in order to minimise the production of waste.

  Mr. Heseltine
  I will write to the hon. Member.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Immigration Appeals
  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Attorney-General what is the average delay between the hearing of an immigration appeal by an adjudicator and the dispatch of the determination to the appellant or his or her authorised representative, listed by each immigration appeals hearing centre.

  The Attorney-General
  The immigration appellate authorities do not record detailed statistics on the average delay at each hearing centre between the hearing of an immigration appeal by an adjudicator and the dispatch of the determination to the appellant or his or her authorised representative. However, it is possible to provide the following estimates:

  Weeks

  Thanet House, London

  4–7

  Harmondsworth1

  4–8

  Birmingham

  4–8

  Leeds2

  4–5

  Manchester

  4–7

  1 Includes Cardiff and Belfast.

  2 Includes Glasgow and Edinburgh.

  1990

  January to March 1991

  Type of decision

  Appeals allowed

  Appeals dismissed

  Appeals allowed

  Appeals dismissed

  Exclusion—Appeal at Port

  29

  174

  2

  77

  Exclusion—External Appeals

  57

  997

  24

  460

  Refusal of Certificate Entitlement

  37

  152

  15

  72

  Refusal of Entry Clearance for Temporary purposes (NOT HUSBANDS or WIVES or FIANCES or FIANCEES)

  1,100

  3,544

  324

  1,593

  Refusal of Entry Clearance for Employment, Business or Independent Means (NOT HUSBANDS, WIVES, FIANCES or FIANCEES)

  9

  18

  5

  19

  Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by WIVES and CHILDREN, other dependent relatives and returning residents.

  611

  829

  110

  285

  Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by female fiancees

  10

  31

  5

  2

  Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by husbands

  530

  835

  128

  333

  Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by male fiances

  293

  468

  82

  150

  760
  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Attorney-General what is the average delay, listed by each immigration appeals hearing centre, between receiving the explanatory statement and other papers about a case(a) from a British post overseas and (b) from the Home Office sending these papers out to the appellant or his or her authorised representative.

  The Attorney-General
  Upon receipt of an explanatory statement and other papers about an appeal from a British post overseas the immigration appellate authorities are able to dispatch copies of the case papers to the parties' representative in this country within one week for cases to be heard at Thanet house in London and two to three weeks for cases to be heard at the IAA's regional hearing centres.

  In Home Office cases, copies of the case papers are sent to the appellant or their representatives when the appeal is set down for hearing. For all the IAA's hearing centres, this is usually within four to five weeks of the IAA receiving the explanatory statement from the Home Office.

  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will provide a table of the number of appeals to the immigration appeal tribunal allowed and dismissed in 1990 and the first quarter of 1991.

  The Attorney-General
  The information requested is set out in the table.

  Allowed

  Remitted1

  Dismissed

  Appeals heard

  1990

  171

  225

  260

  Appeals heard

  January-March 1991

  23

  50

  77

  1 For re-hearing before an immigration adjudicator

  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will provide a table showing the number of appeals to immigration adjudicators allowed and dismissed in 1990 and the first quarter of 1991 broken down according to the nationality of the appellant and the type of decision appealed against.

  The Attorney-General
  The information is not readily available in the form requested and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The number of appeals to immigration adjudicators allowed and dismissed in 1990 and the first quarter of 1991 broken down according to the type of decision appealed against is given in the table.
  761

  1990

  January to March 1991

  Type of decision

  Appeals allowed

  Appeals dismissed

  Appeals allowed

  Appeals dismissed

  Variation of Landing Conditions (including curtailment of stay or duration or conditions of leave to remain given to persons previously exempted (S. 14(2)).

  21

  88

  1

  16

  Refusal to Vary Leave to Enter

  130

  2,951

  70

  1,636

  Decision to make Deportation Order

  36

  620

  9

  174

  Refusal to revoke Deportation Order

  4

  17

  0

  5

  Giving of Removal Directions

  3

  53

  0

  6

  Destination Only Appeal

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Total

  2,870

  10,777

  775

  4,828

  Menwith Hill Byelaws
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Attorney-General what has been the cost of bringing prosecutions under the Menwith Hill Military Lands Byelaws in each year since the byelaws came into force.

  The Attorney-General
  More than 100 prosecutions have been brought under the Menwith Hill Military Lands Byelaws since 1986 when the byelaws came into force. It is not possible to identify the individual cost each year of these cases.

  Correspondence
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will arrange to have printed in the Official Report a copy of the letter dated 4 July, reference C91//232/8 from the Lord Chancellor to the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East.

  The Attorney-General
  No, but arrangements have been made to place copies of the letter in the Libraries of both Houses.

  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Attorney-General, pursuant to the letter from the Lord Chancellor to the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East of 4 July, reference C91/232/8, if he will list those debt-related proceedings which involve a risk of imprisonment.

  The Attorney-General
  The debt-related proceedings for which the Lord Chancellor has responsibility which involve a risk of imprisonment are as follows:

  Oral Examination.

  Attachment of Earnings.

  Rescue of goods seized in execution.

  Judgment summons.

  There are other debt proceedings which are dealt with in the magistrates' courts which involve a risk of imprisonment. As such, these are the responsibility of the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

  Asylum and Immigration Service
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Attorney-General what the latest available annual figures are for(a) how much was spent on legal aid for asylum and immigration advice, (b) what proportion the above amount represents in terms of the entire legal aid budget, (c) what proportion of the above amount involved less than two hours advice and (d) what proportion of the above amount involved more than two hours advice.

  The Attorney-General
  Separate information is not available for the cost of legal advice for immigration or asylum cases. However, £2,652,727 was paid under the 762
  legal aid green form scheme for all immigration and nationality advice and assistance in the financial year 1990–91. This represented approximately 0.4 per cent. of the total payments made out of the legal aid fund during that period, or 3 per cent. of the total spent on the legal aid green form scheme. Information is not available on the proportion of payments for work involving more or less than two hours advice. Legal aid is also available for judicial review proceedings concerning immigration and asylum cases, but separate figures for the amount spent are not available.

  Industrial Injuries
  Mr. Home Robertson
  To ask the Attorney-General what information is held on, or estimate made of, the number of successful claims and the total and average amounts of compensation awarded by courts or settled out of court in respect of industrial injuries during each of the last 10 years, based on the date of the injury, both in cash terms and adjusted to take account of inflation.

  The Attorney-General
  Information is not collected in the form requested.

  Information on personal injury at work cases dealt with in the Queen's Bench division of the High Court has been collected on a sample basis for two months each year since 1986. The results of this exercise are as follows:

  Personal injury at work cases dealt with in the Queen's Bench division in the two months sampled

  Number of claims

  Number awarded to plaintiff

  Amount awarded £

  Amount awarded per case £

  1986

  340

  96

  1,904,364

  19,837

  1987

  424

  161

  4,353,809

  27,042

  1988

  566

  190

  4,990,737

  26,267

  1989

  629

  153

  5,984,239

  39,113

  1990

  546

  115

  6,249,586

  54,344

  Maguire Judgment
  Mr. Mullin
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will arrange for a copy of the Maguire judgment to be placed in the House of Commons Library.

  The Attorney-General
  Further to my reply of 2 July 1991, I have today placed in the Libraries of both Houses of Parliament copies of the judgment of the Court of Appeal in the Maguire case.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Correspondence
  Mr. Cartwright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to provide a substantive reply to the letter dated 15 April from the hon. Member for Woolwich about pressures on teachers, which was acknowledged on 16 April (reference TE/05 1/1010).

  Mr. Eggar
  I have written to the hon. Member today.

  Football
  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will invite the Football Association and the Football League and Professional Footballers Association to discuss the problems smaller clubs face in the league with regard to losing their right to gain promotion and a place in the highest league.

  Mr. Atkins
  The promotion arrangements for any proposed new structure for football are a matter for the football authorities.

  Recreation and Leisure Courses
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the future of recreation and leisure courses following the publication of the White Paper "Education and Training for the 21st Century".

  Mr. Eggar
  The duty to secure adequate provision of recreational and leisure education for adults will remain with local education authorities. It will be for authorities, as now, to determine their expenditure across the services for which they are responsible.

  Science Services
  Dr. Bray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) how many staff work in his Department's science section; and what is the distribution of their grades;

  (2) what are the annual running costs of the Advisory Board for the Research Councils.

  Mr. Eggar
  There are 36–3 full-time equivalent staff in the 00Department's science branch in the following grades:

  Number

  Grade 3

  1

  Grade 5

  2

  Grade 6

  1

  Grade 71

  8

  SEO

  2

  HEO(D) (accountant)

  1

  HEO

  7

  Number of secondary pupils per youth worker/club leader by LEA

  1989–90

  1988–89

  1987–88

  1986–87

  1985–86

  1984–85

  1983–84

  1982–83

  1981–82

  1980–81

  1979–80

  Outer London boroughs

  301 Barking

  829

  541

  980

  1,023

  1,168

  1,110

  1,131

  487

  705

  599

  623

  302 Barnet

  731

  1,365

  —

  1,171

  1,133

  1,176

  1,155

  515

  971

  389

  416

  303 Bexley

  —

  408

  417

  464

  485

  367

  1,204

  562

  1,336

  619

  1,629

  304 Brent

  573

  145

  161

  171

  203

  138

  146

  141

  374

  317

  335

  305 Bromley

  502

  515

  627

  735

  774

  804

  914

  1,905

  1,800

  1,858

  1.527

  306 Croydon

  —

  —

  500

  561

  598

  876

  974

  1,162

  841

  912

  1,183

  764

  Number

  Senior personal secretary

  1

  Administration trainee

  1

  EO

  4

  Personal secretaries

  3

  AO

  3·5

  AA

  0·8

  Typist

  1

  1 Grade 7 is seconded to the Link secretariat at the Department of Trade and Industry.

  In 1990–91 the net running costs of the Department's science branch amounted to about £767,000 excluding accommodation costs and certain centrally provided services.

  Dr. Bray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) how many staff work for the Advisory Board for the Research Councils; and what is the distribution of their grades;

  (2) what are the annual running costs of his Department's science section.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  The advisory board's secretariat currently consists of the following staff:

  Number

  Grade 5

  1

  Grade 7

  2

  HEO

  1

  EO

  1

  Personal secretaries

  2

  AO

  0·5

  AA

  0·2

  and there is one grade 7 vacancy

  The ABRC s running costs in 1990–91 totalled £498,000, including the costs of commissioned studies but

  Funding Councils
  Dr. Bray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many staff in his Department's further and higher education 1 section work on the distribution of funds for science by the Polytechnics and Colleges and Universities Funding Councils.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  About five staff are concerned with policy for the distribution of funds for research by the two councils, alongside other work.

  Youth Clubs
  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what information he has on the number of secondary school pupils per youth worker/club leader for each local authority from 1979 to 1991.

  Mr. Atkins
  Data are shown in the table for individual local education authorities from 1979–80 to 1989–90. Data are not available for 1990–91.
  765

  1989–90

  1988–89

  1987–88

  1986–87

  1985–86

  1984–85

  1983–84

  1982–83

  1981–82

  1980–81

  1979–80

  307 Ealing

  —

  —

  —

  4,370

  922

  1,172

  1,147

  1,159

  1,037

  946

  1,281

  308 Enfield

  533

  991

  1,041

  1,089

  1,398

  1,746

  1,993

  2,127

  1,910

  1,449

  1,464

  309 Haringey

  —

  —

  —

  75

  118

  141

  154

  199

  257

  1,150

  1,579

  310 Harrow

  419

  423

  427

  543

  556

  569

  563

  573

  598

  614

  1,321

  311 Havering

  1,147

  1,204

  1,217

  1,281

  1,155

  1,132

  995

  1,030

  1,023

  1,434

  1,560

  312 Hillingdon

  565

  785

  828

  845

  —

  712

  665

  723

  797

  679

  666

  313 Hounslow

  —

  1,045

  880

  927

  957

  830

  771

  788

  809

  819

  820

  314 Kingston

  —

  360

  377

  389

  410

  441

  451

  465

  465

  528

  643

  315 Merton

  3,736

  167

  1,764

  —

  1,106

  1,180

  998

  1,165

  1,215

  1,006

  868

  316 Newham

  —

  624

  2,277

  1,025

  1,148

  1,220

  1,262

  1,307

  1,179

  1,638

  1,567

  317 Redbridge

  318

  309

  1,474

  917

  941

  981

  1,013

  827

  485

  498

  508

  318 Richmond

  614

  743

  1,130

  1,150

  1,135

  1,127

  973

  688

  1,179

  1,057

  1,089

  319 Sutton

  1,275

  1,302

  1,361

  1,245

  1,295

  664

  688

  705

  721

  1,482

  1,503

  320 Waltham Forest

  383

  411

  415

  481

  532

  577

  641

  665

  754

  768

  815

  Total Outer London Boroughs

  632

  463

  657

  544

  591

  568

  619

  594

  761

  756

  855

  427 ILEA

  110

  —

  66

  —

  283

  86

  94

  101

  248

  260

  305

  Total Greater London

  225

  463

  171

  769

  443

  212

  230

  237

  463

  472

  541

  Metropolitan Districts

  West Midlands

  330 Birmingham

  877

  1,070

  —

  1,603

  640

  708

  690

  808

  807

  863

  754

  331 Coventry

  299

  798

  1,083

  1,039

  905

  984

  1,032

  1,333

  2,714

  1,213

  810

  332 Dudley

  603

  597

  502

  922

  1,062

  1,379

  2,154

  686

  1,585

  812

  826

  333 Sandwell

  961

  478

  596

  640

  702

  747

  784

  892

  932

  1,606

  1,590

  334 Solihull

  838

  878

  756

  797

  838

  881

  910

  751

  747

  652

  665

  335 Walsall

  148

  153

  164

  203

  234

  255

  273

  326

  335

  339

  347

  336 Wolverhampton

  246

  631

  1,088

  1,188

  1,832

  1,923

  2,045

  3,257

  757

  825

  831

  Total West Midlands

  427

  530

  716

  725

  621

  681

  717

  759

  787

  768

  733

  Merseyside

  340 Knowsley

  244

  360

  542

  1,088

  1,775

  2,818

  1,876

  1,960

  2,063

  2,183

  2,341

  341 Liverpool

  699

  1,827

  368

  —

  —

  —

  286

  387

  1,523

  1,647

  2,160

  342 St. Helens

  —

  —

  —

  1,510

  1,985

  2,065

  2,138

  2,160

  2,126

  4,323

  5,748

  343 Sefton

  874

  898

  577

  1,525

  1,880

  1,676

  1,898

  1,950

  1,947

  6,667

  5,476

  344 Wirral

  943

  443

  559

  448

  1,287

  1,337

  1,369

  1,524

  1,638

  2,121

  1,918

  Total Merseyside

  641

  822

  548

  820

  1,640

  1,719

  653

  824

  1,747

  2,383

  2,644

  Greater Manchester

  350 Bolton

  8,841

  1,048

  863

  797

  842

  879

  878

  966

  974

  1,122

  989

  351 Bury

  265

  259

  348

  349

  710

  597

  768

  495

  1,047

  517

  1,056

  352 Manchester

  —

  —

  406

  442

  450

  515

  292

  292

  290

  289

  415

  353 Oldham

  706

  538

  576

  785

  860

  892

  707

  719

  710

  626

  605

  354 Rochdale

  535

  218

  407

  547

  551

  681

  631

  688

  1,314

  769

  776

  355 Salford

  1,225

  1,424

  1,533

  1,670

  2,205

  2,101

  1,430

  1,539

  1,612

  1,546

  1,856

  356 Stockport

  2,580

  452

  455

  536

  3,059

  3,228

  7,868

  681

  847

  874

  674

  357 Tameside

  767

  676

  651

  718

  825

  1,433

  845

  1,227

  549

  688

  1,539

  358 Trafford

  229

  253

  277

  472

  479

  2,142

  504

  865

  1,057

  675

  1,526

  359 Wigan

  —

  —

  892

  1,329

  1,800

  1,776

  844

  2,683

  962

  773

  765

  Total Greater Manchester

  657

  427

  521

  629

  807

  986

  662

  680

  672

  608

  760

  South Yorkshire

  370 Barnsley

  92

  1,453

  1,565

  1,720

  1,821

  1,751

  467

  946

  974

  982

  890

  371 Doncaster

  209

  219

  286

  390

  530

  487

  507

  408

  1,153

  955

  967

  372 Rotherham

  800

  822

  —

  321

  376

  357

  367

  371

  369

  363

  373

  373 Sheffield

  754

  1,176

  695

  799

  —

  1,095

  1,907

  513

  539

  551

  586

  Total South Yorkshire

  250

  541

  523

  535

  565

  653

  612

  486

  606

  594

  607

  West Yorkshire

  380 Bradford

  335

  —

  495

  493

  560

  635

  576

  621

  682

  627

  603

  381 Calderdale

  301

  418

  794

  879

  921

  946

  575

  520

  538

  412

  356

  382 Kirklees

  498

  1,517

  1,656

  1,911

  1,931

  1,990

  1,695

  1,005

  2,017

  1,690

  503

  383 Leeds

  —

  704

  712

  752

  1,058

  449

  598

  577

  630

  632

  595

  384 Wakefield

  —

  —

  —

  1,155

  1,241

  1,124

  1,190

  1,225

  1,140

  896

  583

  Total West Yorkshire

  595

  756

  704

  780

  931

  683

  722

  694

  785

  709

  628

  Tyne and Wear

  390 Gateshead

  266

  294

  6,751

  1,425

  2,955

  2,182

  575

  587

  616

  781

  799

  391 Newcastle upon Tyne

  246

  379

  313

  467

  621

  519

  655

  676

  325

  333

  329

  392 North Tyneside

  1,211

  447

  444

  578

  604

  773

  762

  947

  973

  987

  877

  393 South Tyneside

  338

  361

  530

  561

  595

  637

  233

  275

  271

  320

  327

  394 Sunderland

  431

  437

  432

  489

  564

  1,546

  644

  726

  1,539

  1,749

  1,580

  Total Tyne and Wear

  365

  383

  484

  575

  687

  866

  525

  588

  537

  588

  574

  766

  767

  1989–90

  1988–89

  1987–88

  1986–87

  1985–86

  1984–85

  1983–84

  1982–83

  1981–82

  1980–81

  1979–80

  Total Metropolitan districts

  455

  536

  588

  672

  769

  796

  661

  673

  752

  732

  750

  Non Metropolitan counties

  901 Avon

  306

  262

  1,009

  1,065

  1,300

  1,349

  1,431

  1,459

  1,760

  1,356

  1,408

  902 Bedfordshire

  1,884

  620

  661

  764

  816

  1,096

  897

  872

  896

  929

  928

  903 Berkshire

  690

  707

  735

  814

  851

  860

  927

  973

  1,010

  1,092

  1,108

  904 Buckinghamshire

  450

  701

  390

  409

  447

  463

  516

  625

  878

  542

  510

  905 Cambridgeshire

  1,160

  1,180

  1,224

  1,433

  1,457

  520

  527

  526

  681

  606

  636

  906 Cheshire

  1,002

  521

  611

  650

  730

  1,455

  1,489

  1,543

  1,485

  799

  800

  907 Cleveland

  339

  337

  369

  374

  413

  428

  436

  443

  509

  349

  352

  908 Cornwall

  1,162

  2,098

  2,552

  2,655

  3,235

  4,123

  4,139

  4,140

  4,757

  4,784

  4,768

  909 Cumbria

  1,658

  1,739

  1,576

  —

  907

  949

  908

  1,156

  1,650

  1,929

  1,853

  910 Derbyshire

  491

  258

  272

  524

  551

  681

  773

  838

  1,206

  1,243

  1,331

  911 Devon

  706

  768

  801

  868

  994

  1,004

  1,068

  1,061

  1,103

  1,094

  1,071

  912 Dorset

  710

  681

  736

  592

  615

  673

  1,156

  1,013

  996

  993

  961

  913 Durham

  201

  308

  329

  371

  411

  1,743

  1,765

  1,847

  2,961

  2,334

  3,050

  914 East Sussex

  926

  1,041

  1,163

  2,244

  2,175

  1,488

  1,585

  1,837

  1,631

  922

  1,395

  915 Essex

  1,494

  1,639

  1,708

  1,794

  1,911

  1,977

  2,080

  2,058

  1,787

  1,707

  1,191

  916 Gloucestershire

  414

  441

  1,014

  1,063

  579

  604

  622

  618

  622

  592

  598

  917 Hampshire

  1,261

  1,539

  1,644

  1,798

  1,875

  780

  905

  845

  976

  1,017

  854

  918 Hereford and Worcester

  929

  980

  1,062

  1,219

  1,251

  1,395

  1,500

  2,031

  2,262

  2,360

  2,327

  919 Hertfordshire

  979

  969

  1,013

  1,057

  1,109

  1,153

  1,189

  1,238

  967

  1,278

  1,243

  920 Humberside

  755

  834

  926

  1,269

  1,372

  411

  417

  421

  1,492

  1,501

  88

  921 Isle of Wight

  442

  440

  514

  525

  602

  614

  720

  692

  669

  871

  814

  922 Kent

  2,302

  2,395

  2,816

  3,321

  3,339

  3,654

  3,915

  3,537

  4,011

  3,795

  3,793

  923 Lancashire

  321

  340

  386

  411

  704

  740

  899

  764

  829

  577

  576

  924 Leicestershire

  278

  302

  303

  383

  447

  560

  640

  798

  828

  889

  780

  925 Lincolnshire

  453

  502

  529

  559

  586

  657

  635

  1,123

  1,154

  872

  846

  926 Norfolk

  1,088

  1,143

  1,355

  1,399

  812

  846

  859

  914

  953

  967

  896

  928 Northamptonshire

  1,203

  973

  988

  1,038

  3,731

  566

  664

  730

  874

  830

  1,417

  929 Northumberland

  708

  897

  934

  941

  1,154

  1,194

  1,228

  1,276

  875

  886

  561

  927 North Yorkshire

  475

  516

  514

  551

  697

  621

  687

  717

  1,111

  955

  1,047

  930 Nottinghamshire

  236

  255

  283

  312

  317

  283

  499

  508

  652

  669

  640

  931 Oxfordshire

  679

  688

  695

  941

  4,373

  621

  1,040

  1,069

  1,053

  1,012

  1,032

  932 Salop

  430

  496

  563

  614

  672

  709

  792

  843

  1,077

  1,047

  950

  933 Somerset

  480

  490

  507

  557

  575

  1,679

  2,034

  2,747

  2,755

  3,025

  2,337

  934 Staffordshire

  1,400

  1,440

  1,265

  1,053

  582

  481

  403

  2,819

  2,656

  2,708

  2,628

  935 Suffolk

  914

  736

  756

  761

  707

  600

  610

  630

  684

  670

  702

  936 Surrey

  828

  948

  1,075

  1,209

  1,292

  1,210

  1,278

  1,272

  761

  965

  962

  937 Warwickshire

  313

  382

  432

  476

  597

  658

  133

  1,203

  1,257

  1,311

  1,325

  938 West Sussex

  568

  586

  715

  750

  856

  1,999

  2,063

  1,263

  961

  881

  885

  939 Wiltshire

  733

  770

  44:'

  497

  527

  540

  570

  675

  601

  504

  478

  Total non-metropolitan counties

  594

  596

  662

  753

  803

  768

  791

  959

  1,085

  990

  966

  Total England

  483

  568

  491

  733

  727

  588

  588

  646

  845

  803

  819

  Welsh counties

  Clwyd

  532

  557

  616

  671

  761

  477

  525

  544

  524

  537

  515

  Dyfed

  2,612

  2,582

  2,662

  2,777

  2,869

  2,210

  2,203

  2,280

  1,951

  1,826

  1,731

  Gwent

  1,370

  1,540

  1,831

  1,739

  901

  1,028

  1,103

  674

  946

  466

  475

  Gwynedd

  626

  675

  835

  772

  839

  932

  947

  941

  1,073

  913

  955

  Mid Glamorgan

  —

  525

  639

  1,129

  1,176

  1,207

  1,458

  1,154

  1,161

  1,121

  1,044

  Powys

  399

  391

  397

  414

  426

  391

  348

  347

  763

  765

  416

  South Glamorgan

  650

  627

  288

  308

  446

  487

  588

  601

  631

  599

  652

  West Glamorgan

  1,619

  1,715

  1,811

  1,811

  1,895

  1,974

  1,189

  453

  547

  395

  400

  Total Welsh Counties

  843

  768

  707

  807

  878

  830

  874

  703

  803

  648

  634

  All shire counties

  608

  609

  666

  758

  810

  773

  798

  927

  1,051

  943

  920

  Total England and Wales

  494

  578

  501

  737

  735

  599

  599

  649

  842

  791

  805

  Adult Education
  Mr. Andrew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) of 16 July,Official Report, column 160, whether that adult education work which is undertaken in conjunction with (a) health authorities and (b) social services departments and which is to assist people in, or leaving, residential care, to
  768
  facilitate independent living, will come within the duties of the further education funding councils or of local education authorities.

  Mr. Eggar
  We are currently considering the responses to the proposals set out in the White Paper. We intend to ensure that the legislation makes clear the division of
  769
  responsibilities between the further education funding councils and local education authorities within the new structure for further education.

  Youth Service
  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) if he will give the actual expenditure on youth service for each local authority since 1979;

  (2) if he will give the expenditure on youth services per local education authority secondary school pupil for each local authority from 1979 to 1991;

  (3) if he will give the percentage of actual expenditure on youth service against grant-related expenditure assessment and standard spending assessment for the years since 1979 broken down for each local education authority.

  Mr. Atkins
  The readily available information is shown in the tables. The latest year for which information on actual expenditure is available is 1988–89. Information for years before 1987–88 could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Table 1

  Expenditure on the Youth Service, 1987–88

  Local education authority

  Net recurrent expenditure1

  Net recurrent expenditure1 per secondary pupil2

  Actual expenditure as percentage of GREA for youth and related services

  £000

  £

  Per cent.

  Barking

  628

  67

  97

  Barnet

  970

  54

  72

  Bexley

  783

  52

  101

  Brent

  3,625

  306

  213

  Bromley

  825

  47

  82

  Croydon

  840

  71

  58

  Ealing

  3n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Enfield

  687

  75

  58

  Haringey

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Harrow

  621

  36

  73

  Havering

  704

  52

  86

  Hillingdon

  714

  52

  81

  Hounslow

  727

  57

  73

  Kingston-upon-Thames

  572

  75

  130

  Merton

  376

  32

  57

  Newham

  911

  66

  60

  Redbridge

  877

  65

  94

  Richmond-upon-Thames

  387

  57

  74

  Sutton

  479

  44

  85

  Waltham Forest

  1,286

  102

  108

  ILEA

  30,535

  282

  225

  Birmingham

  4,197

  61

  68

  Coventry

  906

  44

  55

  Dudley

  836

  46

  73

  Sandwell

  657

  31

  39

  Solihull

  386

  25

  49

  Walsall

  1,956

  93

  154

  Wolverhampton

  876

  50

  55

  Knowsley

  488

  45

  52

  Liverpool

  2,101

  66

  89

  St. Helens

  0

  0

  0

  Sefton

  609

  30

  54

  Wirral

  1,025

  45

  78

  Bolton

  921

  48

  76

  Bury

  872

  77

  134

  Manchester

  2,235

  83

  87

  Oldham

  630

  40

  61

  Rochdale

  1,320

  83

  134

  Salford

  516

  34

  48

  Stockport

  786

  40

  79

  770

  Local education authority

  Net recurrent expenditure1

  Net recurrent expenditure1 per secondary pupil2

  Actual expenditure as percentage of GREA for youth and related services

  £000

  £

  Per cent.

  Tameside

  1,039

  68

  120

  Trafford

  569

  46

  67

  Wigan

  819

  34

  69

  Barnsley

  519

  32

  61

  Doncaster

  1,366

  62

  117

  Rotherham

  889

  45

  86

  Sheffield

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Bradford

  2,827

  65

  108

  Calderdale

  930

  68

  113

  Kirklees

  1,325

  46

  72

  Leeds

  2,592

  46

  87

  Wakefield

  678

  30

  57

  Gateshead

  795

  61

  102

  Newcastle-upon-Tyne

  1,155

  65

  103

  North Tyneside

  512

  34

  76

  South Tyneside

  1,549

  152

  242

  Sunderland

  733

  35

  60

  Avon

  4,017

  70

  124

  Bedfordshire

  1,058

  24

  47

  Berkshire

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Buckinghamshire

  2,188

  62

  95

  Cambridgeshire

  1,626

  39

  69

  Cheshire

  1,739

  25

  49

  Cleveland

  2,347

  55

  91

  Cornwall

  533

  17

  37

  Cumbria

  1,256

  37

  78

  Derbyshire

  4,522

  72

  133

  Devon

  2,611

  44

  82

  Dorset

  1,459

  36

  76

  Durham

  1,105

  27

  49

  East Sussex

  981

  27

  47

  Essex

  3,389

  32

  67

  Gloucestershire

  1,699

  49

  93

  Hampshire

  2,857

  32

  52

  Hereford and Worcester

  1,193

  24

  51

  Hertfordshire

  2,441

  35

  70

  Humberside

  3,178

  47

  93

  Isle of Wight

  418

  41

  112

  Kent

  2,291

  22

  42

  Lancashire

  4,052

  44

  72

  Leicestershire

  2,615

  41

  70

  Lincolnshire

  1,014

  26

  51

  Norfolk

  1,603

  37

  67

  North Yorkshire

  1,410

  30

  62

  Northamptonshire

  1,609

  35

  75

  Northumberland

  698

  25

  71

  Nottinghamshire

  4,630

  67

  114

  Oxfordshire

  1,101

  31

  52

  Salop

  1,587

  53

  103

  Somerset

  1,927

  65

  127

  Staffordshire

  2,421

  32

  66

  Suffolk

  1,966

  41

  92

  Surrey

  2,073

  43

  61

  Warwickshire

  1,436

  51

  77

  West Sussex

  1,394

  34

  67

  Wiltshire

  1,499

  42

  73

  England Totals/ averages

  161,470

  53

  87

  1 Gross expenditure excluding financing costs of capital expenditure, less income other than specific grant income. Derived from local authorities' spending returns to the Department of the Environment.

  2 Derived from local authorities' returns of their pupil numbers to the Department of Education and Science.

  3 n/a denotes that a spending return was not received from the authority.

  771

  Table 2

  Expenditure on the youth service, 1988–89

  Local education authority

  Net recurrent expenditure1

  Net recurrent expenditure1 per secondary pupil2

  Actual expenditure as percentage ofGREAfor youth and related services

  £000

  £

  Per cent.

  Barking

  697

  78

  96

  Barnet

  966

  55

  60

  Bexley

  758

  52

  86

  Brent

  2,377

  215

  122

  Bromley

  894

  57

  77

  Croydon

  1,054

  63

  64

  Ealing

  1,804

  160

  89

  Enfield

  796

  49

  58

  Haringey

  3n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Harrow

  648

  83

  66

  Havering

  845

  51

  92

  Hillingdon

  1,018

  77

  100

  Hounslow

  737

  60

  63

  Kingston-upon-Thames

  580

  79

  115

  Merton

  459

  41

  60

  Newham

  1,104

  83

  65

  Redbridge

  1,078

  81

  100

  Richmond-upon-Thames

  514

  76

  86

  Sutton

  517

  49

  81

  Waltham Forest

  1,336

  113

  98

  ILEA

  35,377

  341

  224

  Birmingham

  4,396

  67

  62

  Coventry

  1,095

  57

  59

  Dudley

  983

  57

  76

  Sandwell

  736

  37

  39

  Solihull

  430

  29

  48

  Walsall

  2,305

  117

  160

  Wolverhampton

  2,070

  126

  116

  Knowsley

  666

  67

  63

  Liverpool

  2,392

  79

  89

  St. Helens

  328

  25

  40

  Sefton

  843

  44

  68

  Wirral

  1,512

  70

  101

  Bolton

  1,057

  58

  77

  Bury

  916

  87

  124

  Manchester

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Oldham

  683

  45

  57

  Rochdale

  1,453

  96

  129

  Salford

  538

  38

  44

  Stockport

  598

  33

  53

  Tameside

  1,149

  79

  117

  Trafford

  677

  59

  71

  Wigan

  876

  39

  65

  Barnsley

  551

  37

  57

  Doncaster

  1,305

  62

  97

  Rotherham

  1,029

  55

  87

  Sheffield

  3,038

  111

  125

  Bradford

  3,127

  73

  104

  Calderdale

  1,103

  84

  119

  Kirklees

  1,426

  52

  67

  Leeds

  6,860

  127

  205

  Wakefield

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Gateshead

  722

  59

  82

  Newcastle-upon-Tyne

  659

  39

  51

  North Tyneside

  585

  40

  79

  South Tyneside

  1,855

  195

  263

  Sunderland

  1,010

  51

  72

  Avon

  5,269

  96

  140

  Bedfordshire

  1,131

  26

  44

  Berkshire

  2,185

  47

  65

  Buckinghamshire

  2,370

  69

  88

  Cambridgeshire

  1,780

  44

  65

  Cheshire

  2,005

  30

  50

  Cleveland

  2,629

  65

  90

  Cornwall

  787

  26

  48

  Cumbria

  1,333

  41

  73

  772

  Local education authority

  Net recurrent expenditure1

  Net recurrent expenditure1 per secondary pupil2

  Actual expenditure as percentage ofGREAfor youth and related services

  £000

  £

  Per cent.

  Derbyshire

  5,066

  85

  130

  Devon

  2,913

  51

  79

  Dorset

  1,722

  44

  77

  Durham

  1,263

  33

  49

  East Sussex

  1,089

  31

  44

  Essex

  4,026

  40

  69

  Gloucestershire

  2,147

  65

  104

  Hampshire

  3,230

  37

  51

  Hereford & Worcester

  1,201

  24

  45

  Hertfordshire

  2,782

  42

  70

  Humberside

  3,839

  63

  99

  Isle of Wight

  467

  46

  109

  Kent

  2,708

  27

  44

  Lancashire

  5,179

  59

  80

  Leicestershire

  2,946

  48

  69

  Lincolnshire

  1,096

  30

  48

  Norfolk

  1,870

  45

  68

  North Yorkshire

  1,587

  36

  60

  Northamptonshire

  1,706

  38

  60

  Northumberland

  681

  24

  60

  Nottinghamshire

  5,233

  80

  113

  Oxfordshire

  1,325

  39

  55

  Shropshire

  1,788

  63

  100

  Somerset

  2,478

  87

  143

  Staffordshire

  2,599

  36

  62

  Suffolk

  2,124

  45

  88

  Surrey

  2,420

  53

  63

  Warwickshire

  1,434

  54

  69

  West Sussex

  1,599

  40

  66

  Wiltshire

  1,480

  43

  63

  England Totals/ Averages

  191,322

  65

  88

  Notes to tables

  (1) Gross expenditure excluding financing costs of capital expenditure, less income other than specific grant income. Derived from local authorities' spending returns to the Department of the Environment.

  (2) Derived from local authorities' returns of their pupil numbers to the Department of Education and Science.

  (3) n/a denotes that a spending return was not received from the authority.

  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement following the annual review of the voluntary sector of the youth service as indicated by him on 5 April 1990,Official Report, column 731.

  Mr. Atkins
  In announcing his proposals for the establishment of a National Youth Agency on 5 April 1990, the then Secretary of State said that he proposed to require the agency to report to him annually. The National Youth Agency was established on 1 April 1991 and its first annual report will be made in 1992. We have separately carried out a review of grants to the voluntary sector of the Youth Service, and are currently considering the comments submitted by interested bodies as part of a process of consultation.

  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give the expenditure on grant aid given to voluntary youth organisations by each local authority from 1979 to 1991.

  Mr. Atkins
  This information is not collected centrally.

  Community Colleges
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what effect on fees and provision of courses his proposals for further education will have in rural communities at present served by community colleges;

  (2) what effect on fees and provision of courses his proposals for further education will have in smaller coastal localities where students may have to travel long distances to attend courses.

  Mr. Eggar
  Between them, the further education funding councils and local education authorities will continue to have a duty to secure the provision of the full range of further education. Governing bodies of schools will have a new power to provide education for part-timers and adults. Our proposals are intended to ensure that there is a coherent pattern of provision which is readily accessible to local communities.

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session; and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Eggar
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Citizens Charter
  Mr. Straw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what will be the cost in a full year of the proposals on pages 13 and 14 of the White Paper "The Citizen's Charter", Cm. 1599.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I expect that the proposals will be contained within planned expenditure. The charter proposals will also inform discussion of future expenditure plans.

  Foreign Students (Designation)
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the position of(a) members of the British volunteer programme and (b) members of the diplomatic service and the armed forces with respect to their designation as home or as foreign students for the purposes of tuition fees and grant eligibility when they have worked overseas for more than three years.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  The conditions of eligibility for mandatory student awards and for the "home student" rate of tuition fee are set out in the Education (Mandatory Awards) Regulations and the Education (Fees and Awards) Regulations respectively. The requirements include ordinary residence in the British islands throughout the three years preceding the first year of the course, other than wholly or mainly for the purpose of receiving full-time education. Special provisions apply to 774
  residence in EC territory. There are no specific exemptions for members of the British volunteer programme, diplomatic service or armed forces, but where the ordinary residence requirement cannot be met only because of temporary employment overseas an exemption applies which has the effect of treating the student as a home student. It is for local education authorities in the case of awards, and for further and higher education institutions in the case of fees, to determine whether an individual student is eligible, having regard to his particular circumstances, the provisions of the regulations and any relevant case law.

  Secondary Schools
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science under what circumstances and under what conditions he permits the construction of secondary schools whose estimated structural life is less than 60 years; and what policy he adopts in respect of such schools now nearing the end of any short-term estimated life span.

  Mr. Fallon
  New school building projects for maintained and grant-maintained schools are required to comply with the Education (School Premises) Regulations 1981 and the Department's construction standards. These do not stipulate a minimum structural life.

  Further Education
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what support for non-vocational courses he will give when the proposals of his recent White Paper on further education are brought into effect.

  Mr. Eggar
  The further education funding councils will be resourced to secure adequate provision of a wide range of further education for adults, including courses leading to academic and vocational qualifications and basic skills. We shall also carefully consider standard spending assessments in the light of local education authorities' duty to secure provision of other further education for adults.

  Mr. Hunter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, prior to vesting day, colleges of further education and local education authorities can enter into binding agreements that colleges of further education will make no claim to permanent possession of off-site accommodation made available to them by local education authorities.

  Mr. Eggar
  The land, buildings and equipment currently used by colleges which will transfer to the new sector will be vested in those colleges on 1 April 1993. However, my right hon. and learned Friend has decided that, in exceptional circumstances, where the governing body of a college has so agreed with a local education authority, specific assets can remain with the authority after vesting day. My right hon. and learned Friend will need to approve any agreement having this effect.

  In addition, it will be possible to carry forward existing shared use agreements relating to particular facilities.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if his Department will provide additional funds for extra staff management and training in colleges of further and higher education prior to the inception of independent corporate status; and if he will make a statement.
  775
  Mr. Eggar
  We recognise the importance of careful preparation by colleges for independence. We are already looking at the needs of colleges, and the means of meeting them. If needs are identified which cannot be met through existing funding, my right hon. and learned Friend will look at them in the context of the overall funds available for his programme in the period in question.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received from the Association of Colleges for Further and Higher Education on the state of their buildings; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  The association's response to the recent White Paper, "Education and Training for the 21st Century", refers to the condition of college buildings.

  Mr. Hunter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether local education authorities will continue to be financially responsible after vesting day for development programmes already started at colleges of further education but not scheduled to be completed until further education colleges have passed from local education authority control.

  Mr. Eggar
  My right hon. and learned Friend announced on 9 May 1991 at col 563 that, subject to certain conditions, the Further Education Funding Council will take responsibility for servicing debts incurred by local education authorities for new capital spending in colleges of further education and sixth form colleges. The council will service only debts arising from contracts entered into after 1 April 1991 which have a value in excess of £50,000 and which have been approved by my right hon. and learned Friend.

  Voluntary Schools
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what was the total value of the bids from the voluntary school sector in major and minor capital programmes for the year 1991–92; and what is his total allocation for that year.

  Mr. Fallon
  Bids for new major and minor capital projects in the voluntary school sector amounted to a first year spend of £92 million in 1991–92. The total allocated for new work in that year was £23 million.

  Multiple Sclerosis
  Mr. Hunter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) which medical research units working on the causes and treatment of multiple sclerosis are currently receiving public funds;

  (2) if he will make a statement on progress being made by Government-funded research programmes into the causes and treatment of multiple sclerosis;

  (3) how much public money each year since 1979 has been devoted to research into the causes and treatment of multiple sclerosis.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  The main Government agency for funding medical research is the Medical Research Council which receives its grant-in-aid from the Department. It is an independent body which normally decides its research 776
  priorities on its own expert judgment. I understand that in 1989–90 (the latest year for which details are available) it supported work directly relevant to multiple sclerosis at two units in Oxford. It is also funding a range of research into normal and disordered functions which is of potential relevance. The council continually reviews all its research areas to ensure that progress is satisfactory and that resources are best deployed.

  Research on multiple sclerosis is undertaken by charities, and may also be undertaken by university departments and medical schools with support from the University Funding Council, and by health departments and authorities. Figures are not available for total expenditure from public funds on multiple sclerosis research since 1979, but the MRC's expenditure on directly relevant research is:

  Financial year

  £000s

  1979–80

  656

  1980–81

  747

  1981–82

  826

  1982–83

  501

  1983–84

  485

  1984–85

  446

  1985–86

  403

  1986–87

  404

  1987–88

  297

  1988–89

  216

  1989–90

  180

  The MRC is always willing to consider funding for soundly based research proposals in competition with other applications.

  Playgroups, Tower Hamlets
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will list the numbers of(a) children attending and (b) sites for (i) registered pre-school nurseries and (ii) playgroups in Tower Hamlets for each year since 1979.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I have been asked to reply.

  Information available centrally is shown in the table. Information is not collected centrally on the number of children attending these facilities. Annual information is published in "Children's Day Care Facilities at 31 March", copies of which are available in the Library. The publication for 1990 will be available in the autumn.

  Day care places for children under 5 in the London borough of Tower Hamlets, rate per thousand population, 1981–89.

  Registered Day Nurseries

  Registered Playgroups

  Registered Childminders

  No. of places

  Rate

  No. of places

  Rate

  No. of places

  Rate

  1981

  169

  17·4

  365

  37·6

  350

  36·1

  11982

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  11983

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  11984

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1985

  0

  0·0

  594

  49·9

  510

  42·9

  1986

  0

  0·0

  715

  57·2

  460

  36·8

  1987

  12

  0·9

  634

  48·8

  320

  24·6

  1988

  121

  8·9

  510

  37·5

  382

  28·1

  1989

  121

  8·8

  489

  35·4

  437

  31·7

  1 Return not submitted for these years.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Pergau Hydro-electric Project
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what feasibility studies were carried out by the Overseas Development Administration of the Pergau hydro-electric project before offering aid to the Government of Malaysia;

  (2) what additional studies were considered by the Overseas Development Administration in relation to the Pergau project.

  Mrs. Chalker
  In considering this project the Overseas Development Administration had available a feasibility study carried out by the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation and as part of our own appraisal financed studies of environmental issues and contract pricing.

  Iraq
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on his assessment of the immediate humanitarian needs of Iraq.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan produced last week a detailed report on humanitarian needs in Iraq, following the United Nations mission to Iraq which he led earlier this month. We and others are giving the report our urgent consideration. We are continuing our assistance to displaced people in northern Iraq through provision of vehicles, agricultural equipment and building materials, and are playing a leading role in a European Community initiative to provide food, clean water, health care and shelter to those in need in the north-east of the country.

PRIME MINISTER

  Defence Equipment Finance Department
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Prime Minister when co-operation between International Military Services and the Defence Equipment Finance Department of the Midland International Trade Services was terminated.

  The Prime Minister
  Decisions on individual business contacts by International Military Services are matters for the company's judgment, and are subject to commercial confidentiality.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Prime Minister what defence firms based in Britain have had links with the Defence Equipment Finance Department of the Midland International Trade Services.

  The Prime Minister
  This is a matter for the companies concerned.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will list the Government Departments which have co-operated with the Defence Equipment Finance Department of the Midland International Trade Services.

  The Prime Minister
  The Ministry of Defence and Export Credits Guarantee Department have had routine contacts with the Defence Equipment Finance Department of Midland International Trade Services. There may also have been routine contacts with other departments, but no records of such contacts are kept centrally.

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Prime Minister how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  The Prime Minister
  The information requested is a matter for public record.

  Citizens Charter
  Mr. Straw
  To ask the Prime Minister what was the total cost of the design, preparation, printing and distribution of the White Paper on the citizens charter, Cm. 1599.

  The Prime Minister
  The cost of the design and preparation of Cm. 1599 is likely to be in the region of £33,000.

  The costs for printing, publishing and distributing the White Paper were met by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, which aims to recover its costs from sales revenue.

  Mr. Grocott
  To ask the Prime Minister what was the total cost of printing and publishing the citizens charter, Cm. 1599.

  The Prime Minister
  The costs of printing and publishing the citizens charter White Paper Cm. 1599 were 780
  met by HMSO who aim to recover their costs from sales revenue. The estimated cost of producing the short version of Cm. 1599 was £60,000.

  Mr. Grocott
  To ask the Prime Minister what is the total cost to public funds of the pledges made in the citizens charter.

  The Prime Minister
  The Government have put, and will continue to put, extra resources into priority public services whenever extra money can be afforded. Under the charter programme it will also find better ways of converting the money that can be afforded into even better services. I therefore expect the cost to be met within the existing public expenditure programme.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will list the opinion surveys carried out in the course of preparation of the citizens charter; and if he will place the results of each survey in the Library, together with the name of the organisation which carried out each survey.

  The Prime Minister
  No opinion surveys were carried out in the course of preparing the White Paper. The White Paper itself is a means of sounding public opinion and it is proposed that the views of the public should be sought regularly about the services they use.

  Mr. Straw
  To ask the Prime Minister what was the total cost of the launch at the Queen Elizabeth II centre of the White Paper, the citizens charter, Cm. 1599.

  The Prime Minister
  The estimated cost of the launch is £73,000. This covers the cost of hiring the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre and ancillary facilities.

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will give a full list of arms purchases made through BCCI and thought to have been for Iraq during the last 10 years.

  The Prime Minister
  I do not have this information.

  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library copies of all correspondence he received from the Governor of the Bank of England relating to the Bank of Credit and Commerce International since June 1987.

  The Prime Minister
  No. Exchanges between the Governor and myself are confidential. Any material relating to BCCI would, moreover, be covered by the provisions of part V of the Banking Act 1987. Lord Justice Bingham will of course have access to any correspondence received from the Governor relating to BCCI.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Prime Minister what information he has on which defence firms based in Britain have had links with BCCI.

  The Prime Minister
  The relationship between defence firms and BCCI is a matter for the companies concerned.

  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Prime Minister what assistance Her Majesty's Government and the Bank of England gave to United States officials in 1990 investigating affairs of the BCCI.

  The Prime Minister
  Since Operation C Chase in 1988, Customs and Excise investigators have kept in regular
  781
  touch with their US counterparts regarding drugs money laundering matters. The Bank of England has co-operated with the US authorities as fully as it can within the constraints imposed on it by the Banking Act.

  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) whether, in the inquiry into the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, Lord Justice Bingham will have powers to compel attendance from directors or employees of self-regulatory organisations set up under the terms of the Financial Services Act 1986;

  (2) whether, in the inquiry into the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, Lord Justice Bingham will have powers to compel attendance from Government servants and regulators who have left the public service.

  The Prime Minister
  This is a non-statutory inquiry. In the light of the experience of a number of similar non-statutory inquiries in recent years, we do not expect any difficulties in securing the attendance of witnesses.

  Bank of England
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will list the dates on which he met the Governor of the Bank of England since June 1987; and what was discussed on each occasion.

  The Prime Minister
  I have met the Governor from time to time to discuss a wide range of issues.

  Food Aid, Africa
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) if he will seek to ensure that the European Commission places a higher priority on humanitarian considerations than cost-effectiveness in deciding allocation of food aid to Africa;

  (2) if he will list the surplus commodities held in the intervention stocks of the European Commission, the quantity of each commodity currently held or held on the latest date for which the information is available and the amount of each commodity that has been used within the programme of food aid for Africa which was agreed in May;

  (3) if he will list the surplus commodities held in the intervention stocks of the European Commission and indicate, for each item on the list, the steps he has taken to find ways that items might be used to combat starvation and poverty in Africa and elsewhere as an alternative to remaining in store;

  (4) if he will list the surplus commodities held in the intervention stocks of the European Commission and indicate, for each item on that list, his assessment of ways in which that commodity could be used (a) as immediate emergency food aid for Africa and elsewhere and (b) as part of long-term programmes to prevent starvation;

  (5) further to his answer of 22 July, if he will (a) indicate the quantity of grain being drawn from intervention stocks of the European Commission, (b) indicate the quantity of grain that would meet the needs of the special programme of food aid for Africa and (c) indicate whether additional quantities of grain could make a contribution to meeting the needs of people facing starvation in Africa over and above the needs of the special programme;
  782
  (6) further to his answer of 22 July, if he will indicate the measurements of cost-effectiveness currently being used by the European Commission to cost the special programme of food aid for Africa;

  (7) further to his answer dated 22 July, if he will seek to persuade the European Commission to increase the use of grain from intervention stocks to meet the needs of people currently facing starvation in Africa.

  The Prime Minister
  I am satisfied that humanitarian considerations, in particular the need to ensure that the right product reaches the right people at the right time, are given high priority by the European Commission. However, the very substantial cost of transport from Europe to the more remote parts of Africa has to be taken into account when determining the source of grain for relief purposes; for that reason we encourage the Commission to buy food in nearby countries with exportable surpluses whenever appropriate.

  Significant intervention stocks are held of cereals (particularly common wheat, durum wheat, barley and rye), milk products, beef and wine. Of these only common wheat and, to a limited extent, rice are suitable for use as emergency food aid. So far in 1991 262,000 tonnes of common wheat held in intervention have been used in this way. In addition substantial quantities of wheat have been purchased on the European Commission open market by the Commision and member states for food aid purposes; some 90 per cent. of the food provided under Community action programmes (1·7 million tonnes of cereals, and smaller quantities of other products this year) is obtained from within the Community. Tables showing the amounts of the various products held in intervention are deposited regularly in the Libraries of the House.

  The main priority now in combating famine in Africa is to encourage donors to deliver quickly pledges already made and to find ways of speeding up distribution within the affected countries to the people most in need. We shall continue to take every opportunity to pursue these issues with other donors, including the European Commission, and with the international organisations and recipient countries. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development will be discussing them with the main British non-governmental organisations on 25 July.

  Tourism
  Mr. Gregory
  To ask the Prime Minister if he has any plans to appoint a tourism ombudsman.

  The Prime Minister
  No. There is already a comprehensive framework of consumer protection legislation in place, which will be further strengthened for the travel and tourism industry by the implementation of the European Community package travel directive.

  Postal Services
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Prime Minister, pursuant to his statement of 22 July concerning postal services of the Royal Mail, what factors Her Majesty's Government will take into account in determining the price level at which private service alternatives will be permitted; and when he expects to announce the new level.

  The Prime Minister
  In determining the minimum price level at which private operators will be allowed to provide letter services, the Secretary of State for Trade and
  783
  Industry will satisfy himself that the Post Office's ability to meet its statutory obligations and to provide a nationwide letter service within an affordable uniform tariff structure will not be undermined. He will also bear in mind the potential for improvements in the Post Office's efficiency and service quality as well as tariff levels and the financial targets that he sets. He will make a significant move after the necessary legislation is enacted.

  Science and Technology Secretariat
  Dr. Bray
  To ask the Prime Minister what are the annual running costs of the Cabinet Office science and technology secretariat.

  The Prime Minister
  In 1990–91 the running costs of the science and technology secretariat were £1,228,322.

  Dr. Bray
  To ask the Prime Minister how many staff work in the Cabinet Office science and technology secretariat; and what is the distribution of their grades.

  The Prime Minister
  The number of staff working in the Cabinet Office science and technology secretariat on 1 July 1991 was 36. The grade distribution is as follows:

  Number

  Chief scientific officer

  1

  Grade 3

  1

  Grade 5

  2

  Grade 6

  3·5

  Grade 7

  8

  HEO

  1

  EO

  3·5

  AO

  4

  AA

  3

  SPS

  2

  PS

  5

  Typist

  2

  Civil Nuclear Materials
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Prime Minister what proposals Her Majesty's Government have considered for a new international convention to bring together in a single convention agreements relating to the regulation of civil nuclear issues and radioactive materials currently the subject matter of several international conventions; and if he will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  The Government are not considering any such proposals.

  Mr. Alan Blumlein
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will acquire for the nation the biographical papers relating to the electronics engineer Alan Blumlein, inventor of stereo and pioneer of electronic television and radar.

  The Prime Minister
  Neither I, nor my colleague the Minister for the Arts, is aware of any sale of papers relating to Alan Blumlein. The question of acquisition of such papers for the nation therefore does not arise.

  G7 Conference
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Prime Minister what was the total estimated cost to Her Majesty's Government of hosting the Group of Seven conference in London.
  784
  The Prime Minister
  With many accounts still to be settled, I cannot give a precise figure, but I expect the total cost to be around £7 million.

  Mr. Bob Ingham
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Prime Minister what correspondence his office has received from Mr. Bob Ingham of Woodlands crescent, Knutsford over the past two years; if he will list the subjects of the correspondence; and what response has been made.

  The Prime Minister
  [holding answer 23 July 1991]: My office received a letter addressed to me from Mr. Bob Ingham on 30 August 1990 on the subject of sewage, which my office acknowledged, noting the contents and stating that the letter was being sent on, for information, to the Department with policy responsibility for the matter raised.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the total number of confirmed cases of BSE in each county or Scottish region at the latest available date in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Gummer
  The information up to 19 July 1991 is as follows:

  County

  Cases

  England:

  Northern

  Cleveland

  39

  Cumbria

  608

  Durham

  112

  Humberside

  134

  Northumberland

  136

  Tyne and Wear

  4

  Yorkshire, North

  1,164

  Yorkshire, South

  98

  Yorkshire, West

  135

  Total

  2,430

  Midlands and Western

  Cheshire

  904

  Derbyshire

  506

  Herefore and Worcester

  595

  Lancashire

  699

  Leicestershire

  759

  Manchester

  33

  Merseyside

  14

  Nottinghamshire

  193

  Salop

  752

  Staffordshire

  593

  West Midlands

  18

  Warwickshire

  328

  Total

  5,394

  Eastern

  Bedfordshire

  88

  Cambridgeshire

  110

  Essex

  143

  Hertfordshire

  137

  Lincolnshire

  257

  Norfolk

  524

  Northamptonshire

  274

  Suffolk

  378

  Total

  1,911

  785

  County

  Cases

  South-East

  Berkshire

  190

  Buckinghamshire

  285

  Hampshire

  1,182

  Isle of Wight

  228

  Kent

  645

  London

  18

  Oxfordshire

  489

  Surrey

  288

  Sussex, East

  417

  Sussex, West

  790

  Total

  4,532

  South-West

  Avon

  647

  Cornwall

  2,363

  Devon

  3,538

  Dorset

  2,692

  Gloucestershire

  920

  Somerset

  2,915

  Wiltshire

  1,941

  Total

  15,016

  Wales

  Clwyd

  377

  Dyfed

  1,377

  Mid Glamorgan

  77

  Glamorgan, South

  84

  Glamorgan, West

  16

  Gwent

  233

  Gwynedd

  88

  Powys

  296

  Total

  2,548

  Scotland:

  South

  Borders

  53

  Central

  30

  Dumfries

  207

  Lothian

  23

  Strathclyde

  272

  North

  Fife

  62

  Grampian

  201

  Highland

  56

  Orkney

  10

  Shetland

  3

  Tayside

  85

  Western Isles

  1

  Total

  1,003

  Northern Ireland:

  Antrim

  66

  Armagh

  18

  Down

  45

  Fermanagh

  20

  Londonderry

  25

  Tyrone

  41

  Total

  215

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many BSE carcases have been(a) incinerated and (b) buried in 1991 in England.

  Mr. Gummer
  In the period January to May 1991 9,593 BSE carcases were incinerated and 306 buried in England.

  Cereal Production
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the amount of land in each county which has been under cereal production for each year since 1987.

  Mr. Gummer
  The information requested is given in the following table. Data are taken from the 1987 to 1990 June agricultural censuses and hence exclude estimates for minor holdings not in the annual census.

  Census of agriculture June 1987·90 Distribution of cereals area by county

  '000 hectares

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Avon

  17·0

  17·6

  17·1

  16·2

  Bedfordshire

  55·3

  53·3

  54·3

  51·5

  Berkshire

  37·5

  37·2

  36·2

  33·7

  Buckinghamshire

  54·7

  52·4

  51·5

  47·0

  Cambridgeshire

  170·5

  166·2

  164·9

  161·2

  Cheshire

  29·8

  29·7

  28·5

  26·2

  Cleveland

  14·7

  14·2

  14·6

  13·2

  Cornwall1

  46·2

  46·1

  43·9

  40·4

  Cumbria

  24·6

  24·0

  22·4

  20·3

  Derbyshire

  32·0

  32·4

  32·7

  31·1

  Devon

  74·3

  74·4

  70·0

  65·6

  Dorset

  56·7

  56·9

  56·7

  53·6

  Durham

  36·5

  37·3

  37·6

  34·9

  East Sussex

  31·1

  30·4

  28·8

  26·6

  Essex

  161·2

  155·2

  158·9

  153·7

  Gloucestershire

  81·0

  80·4

  76·9

  70·3

  Greater London

  4·6

  4·6

  4·3

  4·1

  Greater Manchester

  6·1

  6·2

  6·1

  5·9

  Hampshire

  104·6

  105·9

  105·2

  101·2

  Hereford and Worcester

  90·8

  91·4

  90·7

  84·3

  Hertfordshire

  59·4

  58·4

  58·7

  56·5

  Humberside

  178·9

  178·0

  179·7

  172·6

  Isle of Wight

  8·8

  9·3

  9·1

  8·1

  Kent

  92·8

  89·2

  92·7

  86·1

  Lancashire

  19·5

  20·0

  19·0

  17·2

  Leicestershire

  87·4

  86·0

  87·2

  80·9

  Lincolnshire

  290·6

  285·3

  290·5

  279·3

  Merseyside

  10·0

  10·0

  9·9

  9·1

  Norfolk

  214·3

  210·1

  210·6

  204·5

  North Yorkshire

  196·7

  196·2

  198·6

  189·9

  Northamptonshire

  94·8

  92·8

  93·0

  85·5

  Northumberland

  74·9

  76·0

  77·0

  72·9

  Nottinghamshire

  81·7

  80·5

  81·3

  75·8

  Oxfordshire

  110·2

  107·7

  107·5

  99·8

  Shropshire

  84·2

  85·0

  85·4

  80·5

  Somerset

  45·8

  47·7

  47·6

  44·2

  South Yorkshire

  35·7

  35·6

  35·1

  32·7

  Staffordshire

  46·1

  46·1

  46·6

  42·8

  Suffolk

  173·3

  169·5

  172·5

  169·0

  Surrey

  15·1

  14·1

  13·5

  12·5

  Tyne and Wear

  8·2

  8·2

  7·9

  7·3

  Warwickshire

  68·0

  66·7

  67·7

  62·4

  West Midlands

  5·6

  5·6

  5·5

  5·4

  West Sussex

  44·8

  43·8

  41·5

  40·0

  West Yorkshire

  22·5

  22·3

  23·0

  22·0

  Wiltshire

  114·2

  113·4

  113·1

  106·6

  England

  3,312·9

  3,273·0

  3,275·1

  3,105·1

  1 Includes Scilly Isles.

  Notes: Minor holdings are excluded. Triticale is included from 1989.

  Oil Seed Rape
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the amount of land in each county under oil seed rape since 1987.
  787
  Mr. Gummer
  The information requested is given in the following table. Data are taken from the 1987 to 1990 June agricultural censuses and hence exclude estimates for minor holdings not in the annual census.

  Census of Agriculture June 1987–90 Distribution of oil seed rape area by county

  '000 hectares

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Avon

  0·5

  0·5

  0·5

  0·7

  Bedfordshire

  7·9

  7·3

  6·2

  7·9

  Berkshire

  2·8

  2·4

  2·7

  3·3

  Buckinghamshire

  6·4

  5·9

  6·0

  7·4

  Cambridgeshire

  18·5

  16·5

  15·9

  19·2

  Cheshire

  2·2

  1·9

  1·6

  1·8

  Cleveland

  2·3

  2·1

  1·9

  2·8

  Cornwall inc Scilly Isles

  0·7

  0·7

  0·3

  0·6

  Cumbria

  0·5

  0·5

  0·3

  0·3

  Derbyshire

  3·7

  3·6

  3·0

  3·4

  Devon

  0·9

  0·8

  0·7

  0·9

  Dorset

  1·0

  1·1

  1·0

  1·4

  Durham

  5·3

  4·9

  4·8

  6·8

  East Sussex

  2·1

  2·1

  1·7

  2·2

  Essex

  22·5

  21·3

  20·5

  22·8

  Gloucestershire

  5·5

  5·3

  5·5

  7·1

  Greater London

  0·6

  0·5

  0·6

  0·7

  Greater Manchester

  0·5

  0·4

  0·4

  0·6

  Hampshire

  6·2

  4·8

  4·7

  6·1

  Hereford and Worcester

  5·3

  4·7

  4·6

  5·8

  Hertfordshire

  8·6

  7·3

  7·4

  8·8

  Humberside

  25·7

  23·1

  21·0

  24·5

  Isle of Wight

  0·5

  0·6

  0·7

  0·9

  Kent

  14·4

  12·9

  11·4

  15·1

  Lancashire

  0·9

  0·8

  0·8

  1·3

  Leicestershire

  13·4

  12·7

  11·6

  14·1

  Lincolnshire

  40·7

  34·8

  32·0

  38·6

  Mersey side

  0·4

  0·5

  0·5

  0·6

  Divisional office

  Environmentally sensitive areas

  Farm and conservation grant scheme

  Farm diversification grant scheme

  Farm woodland scheme

  Hill livestock compensatory allowances

  Sheep annual premium scheme

  Suckler cow premium scheme

  Set-aside

  £'000

  £'000

  £'000

  £'000

  £'000

  £'000

  £'000

  £'000

  South western region

  Exeter

  —

  2,350

  221

  46

  3,360

  9,273

  2,625

  283

  Gloucester

  —

  1,222

  206

  144

  —

  3,551

  1,331

  1,376

  Taunton

  822

  2,001

  207

  4

  1,161

  4,311

  1,380

  377

  Truro

  327

  667

  131

  9

  992

  3,288

  1,554

  219

  Eastern region

  Chelmsford

  —

  260

  95

  31

  —

  528

  388

  1,183

  Huntingdon

  —

  148

  33

  71

  —

  2,497

  647

  1,530

  Lincoln

  —

  221

  42

  27

  —

  1,064

  872

  526

  Norwich

  3,286

  545

  93

  133

  —

  1,035

  1,043

  1,279

  Northern region

  Beverley

  201

  513

  52

  20

  1,024

  2,130

  1,329

  310

  Carlisle

  64

  1,530

  85

  19

  7,654

  10,618

  2,393

  66

  Newcastle

  372

  356

  90

  29

  7,338

  9,093

  4,153

  400

  Northallerton

  534

  1,201

  160

  24

  4,860

  8,504

  1,959

  165

  South eastern region

  Guildford

  26

  478

  61

  42

  —

  2,132

  1,068

  1,245

  Maidstone

  605

  428

  177

  14

  —

  3,919

  718

  802

  Oxford

  —

  399

  89

  60

  —

  2,502

  911

  1,885

  Midlands and Western region

  Crewe

  629

  3,698

  173

  31

  2,213

  6,643

  2,038

  390

  Nottingham

  556

  704

  81

  32

  1,221

  4,175

  1,345

  350

  Preston

  —

  1,113

  59

  —

  1,688

  3,678

  828

  118

  Worcester

  —

  541

  84

  69

  2,679

  7,501

  1,536

  316

  788

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Norfolk

  11·2

  8·9

  7·1

  9·4

  North Yorkshire

  19·6

  17·5

  16·4

  19·5

  Northamptonshire

  18·6

  16·4

  16·0

  18·3

  Northumberland

  7·1

  6·7

  6·9

  10·0

  Nottinghamshire

  13·5

  11·6

  10·7

  12·5

  Oxfordshire

  11·6

  11·3

  10·4

  12·7

  Shropshire

  4·2

  3·5

  2·9

  3·5

  Somerset

  1·2

  0·9

  0·7

  0·9

  South Yorkshire

  6·1

  6·0

  5·3

  5·8

  Staffordshire

  4·5

  4·1

  3·3

  4·0

  Suffolk

  17·5

  13·3

  12·6

  13·9

  Surrey

  1·1

  1·3

  1·2

  1·4

  Tyne and Wear

  1·2

  1·1

  1·2

  1·5

  Warwickshire

  10·4

  9·4

  8·8

  9·9

  West Midlands

  0·6

  0·5

  0·5

  0·6

  West Sussex

  3·7

  3·0

  2·9

  3·6

  West Yorkshire

  3·1

  2·9

  2·6

  3·0

  Wiltshire

  5·4

  5·0

  4·6

  6·4

  England

  340·6

  303·5

  282·7

  342·5

  Note: Minor holdings are excluded.

  Grants and Subsidies
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the amount of money which was paid out by each of his divisional offices for each(a) agricultural subsidy scheme and (b) grant scheme available to farmers in 1990.

  Mr. Gummer
  The money dispersed by each of my divisional offices on the principal grant and subsidy schemes in 1990 is shown in the table:

  Horses and Ponies (Exports)
  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made by Her Majesty's Government in their negotiations with the European Commission and other member states with regard to preventing a renewal of an export trade in horses and ponies for slaughter.

  Mr. Maclean
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) on 18 July 1991,Official Report, column 282.

  Wildlife and Landscape Conservation
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the number of regional and national training courses on wildlife and landscape conservation where held for Agricultural Development and Advisory Service officers in 1990 and to date in 1991; and how many are planned for the rest of 1991 in each region.

  Mr. Gummer
  The numbers of national and regional training courses on wildlife and landscape conservation held in 1990 and in 1991, to date, for Agricultural Development and Advisory Service advisers are as follows:

  National

  Regional

  1990

  6

  9

  11991

  6

  6

  1 To date.

  Training courses planned for the remainder of 1991 are as follows:

  Number

  National

  3

  Regional:

  Eastern

  1

  Midlands and Western

  2

  Northern

  1

  South Western

  4

  Wales

  1

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Curry
  The Department has answered 1,360 parliamentary questions for written reply in the current parliamentary Session to date, and 1,870 questions for the equivalent period in the last Session. The further information requested by the hon. Member is not collected and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Salmon
  Mr. Beith
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to publish the report on east coast fisheries prepared under the Salmon Act 1986; and whether the original report which he receives will be published without alteration.

  Mr. Curry
  Section 39 of the Salmon Act 1986 requires the presentation of a review to Parliament on the salmon net fisheries off the north-east coast of England and the east coast of Scotland. Scientists at the Scottish Office and from this Department have completed a substantial background paper which is now being considered.

  A report will be presented to Parliament as soon as possible.

  Mr. Beith
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what assessment he has made of the significance of the north-east coast salmon fishery as a component of the fishing industry of that area, and of the effect on the industry which would result from a ban on that fishery.

  Mr. Curry
  The majority of fishermen operating off the north-east coast of England fish for a variety of different species. For those fishermen who fish for salmon it can represent a significant part of their annual income. However, the mixed species nature of the fishery means that it is difficult to quantify the effect that banning salmon fishing would have on the industry.

  Ministry Staff, Devon
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proposals he has for reorganising his offices and staff in Devon.

  Mr. Curry
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 23 July to my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Irvine).

THE ARTS

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Minister for the Arts how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Renton
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Edinburgh Art Galleries
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Minister for the Arts what representations he has now received about the closure of art galleries in Edinburgh; and if he will reconsider his decision not to hold an inquiry into the Scottish Arts Council's funding of the visual arts.

  Mr. Renton
  I received five letters about the Edinburgh art galleries, including one from the hon. Member for
  791
  Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan). This matter falls within the remit of the chairman of the Arts Council of Great Britain, to whom I have referred the correspondence for his consideration and for direct replies. I have, however, been kept closely in touch with developments and I understand that the chairman's view is that an inquiry would be inappropriate. I see no reason to dissent from this.

  Works of Art
  Mr. Faulds
  To ask the Minister for the Arts whether he will specify the allocations made to public institutions in the United Kingdom, during the half-year ended 30 June, of individual works of art and museum objects

  Item

  To whom allocated

  Conditions/ wishes expressed

  East Anglian collection of paintings and George III Cabinet

  Norwich Castle Museum

  Conditional

  Two paintings by Nasmyth

  University of Manchester—Whitworth Art Gallery

  Conditional

  Painting by Sickert

  Tate Gallery

  Wish to go to Tate Gallery

  Collection of works by and relating to John Piper

  Wolverhampton Museum and Art Gallery

  Wish to go to Wolverhampton Art Gallery

  Four Old Master drawings

  National Galleries of Scotland

  Conditional

  Portrait of Charles Hope by Raeburn

  National Galleries of Scotland

  Conditional

  Stamp Collection

  British Library

  Wish to go to the British Library

  Collection of photographs by and of Cecil Beaton

  National Portrait Gallery

  Conditional

  Portrait attributed to Reynolds

  National Galleries of Scotland—to remain in situ in Paxton House, Berwickshire

  Conditional

  Items awaiting allocation

  Date of acceptance

  *Portrait by Beechey

  20 April 1990

  *Painting by Lucas de Heere

  20 April 1990

  *Two portraits by Gainsborough, one by Rubens and a landscape by Seghers

  20 April 1990

  Portrait of Professor Hill by Raeburn

  12 March 1991

  Harpsichord by Burkat Shudi

  12 March 1991

  Collection of drawings by Runciman

  26 April 1991

  Papers of George Bellas Greenough

  26 April 1991

  Whistler watercolour

  26 April 1991

  Collection of musical instruments

  26 April 1991

  Note: The three offers marked* were omitted, in error, from the answer given to the hon. Member for Warley, East on 21 January 1991 at column 9.

  Press notices have already been issued announcing the acceptance of all these items and the allocations that have been made to date.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what training or guidance material has been issued for magistrates dealing with poll tax cases; if he will place copies of such material in the Library; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  Guidance was contained in Home Office circular 23/1990, issued on 14 March 1990, a copy of which is in the Library.

  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he now has as to the 792
  pre-eminent for national, scientific, historical or artisitc interest which have been accepted in satisfaction of inheritance tax or capital transfer tax, together with information, where applicable, as to conditions or wishes expressed by testators or executors in the matter of allocation; whether he will list the works of art and museum objects which are still awaiting allocation, with the respective dates of their acceptance in satisfaction of inheritance tax or capital transfer tax; and whether a press notice will be issued from his Department covering the information given in his reply.

  Mr. Renton
  The information the hon. Gentleman requests is as follows:

  number of people who have served, or are serving, a prison sentence for non-payment of the 1990–91 poll tax, and the length of their sentences; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  According to the records held centrally, which are approximate, six prisoners had been received into Prison Service establishments in England and Wales by 31 March 1991 following committal for non-payment of the community charge. The periods of committal imposed were 10 days, two weeks, three weeks, one month (2), and three months. Reliable information is not yet available centrally for such prisoners received since March 1991.

  Magistrates Clerks
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the salaries of clerks to the magistrates courts are first paid by local authorities and then reimbursed by his Department, or paid directly; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  Salaries are paid by local authorities, which receive specific grant support from the Home Office for magistrates courts expenditure.

  Visas
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidance he has given to(a) airlines and (b) British posts abroad about the categories of people who are visa nationals but who are exempt from requiring visas to re-enter the United Kingdom after an absence abroad; why it was decided not to record this exemption on people's passports; and if he will publish the guidance.
  793
  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  A copy of the guidance given to airlines on the exemption criteria has been placed in the Library. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has, I understand, similarly advised posts abroad. In addition, posters covering the changes have been displayed at all British posts abroad and all applicants granted a visa now receive a standard passport-sized card setting out the terms of the new extended visa exemption scheme. Now that the exemption scheme applies uniformly to all nationalities, a "visa exempt" passport endorsement is no longer necessary.

  Mrs. Zabeda Begum Yagoob
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what response he has made to the representations made by the hon. Member for Bradford, West in the case of Mrs. Zabeda Begum Yaqoob (Ref. Y48459); when his Department informed the hon. Member for Bradford, West of an intention to deport Mrs. Yagoob from the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what notices were sent to the Bradford home address of Mrs. Zabeda Begum Yaqoob (Ref. Y48459) prior to her deportation from the United Kingdom; on what dates such notices were sent; how they were delivered; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) what representations he has received concerning Mrs. Zabeda Begum Yagoob (Ref. Y48459); following her deportation from the United Kingdom from (a) her representative and (b) other persons or organisations;

  (4) when Mrs. Zabeda Begum Yaqoob, born in 1950, (Ref. Y48459) was deported from the United Kingdom; who was her representative; what notices concerning his intention to deport were sent to her representative; on what dates such notices were sent; how such notices were sent; and if he will make a statement;

  (5) what inquiries were made by his officials into hospital treatment being received by Mrs. Zabeda Begum Yagoob (Ref. Y48459) before she was deported from the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Representations from the hon. Member for Bradford, West on behalf of Mrs. Zabeda Begum Yaqoob were rejected on 17 January 1989 and subsequently on 7 April 1989, when he was informed of the intention to make a deportation order against her. Notice of this decision was sent on 13 April 1989 to her legal representatives, Messrs Carter Gouldsborough of Bradford, by first class ordinary post and on 14 April 1989 to Mrs. Yaqoob at her home address by first class recorded delivery post together with the appropriate appeals forms. Her appeal against the decision was dismissed on 11 September 1990.

  No representations on her behalf have been received from her representatives or others following her deportation from the United Kingdom on 14 May 1991. We were not informed that Mrs. Yagoob was receiving any hospital treatment before she was deported and there was therefore no cause for inquiries to be made.

  Sexual Offences Act
  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is his Department's policy towards the use of police officers to encourage or in any way induce offences to be committed under section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Measures to detect crime are operational matters for chief officers of police. However, the Home Office has issued guidance to all police forces which stresses that police officers must not incite the commission of offences.

  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has as to the incidence of police officers encouraging or inducing offences to be committed under section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Information of methods of detection for offences committed under section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 is not collected centrally.

  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment his Department has made of the financial cost incurred by the deployment of a single police officer in surveillance of a public toilet for one day.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Available figures on the cost of police officers' time are not related to the duties on which they are engaged; additional costs are not normally incurred by the deployment of officers on particular duties.

  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidelines have been issued relating to police operations applied to the entrapment of homosexual men for soliciting.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The Home Office has issued guidance to all police forces which stresses that police officers must not incite the commission of criminal offences. Instructions relating to particular police operations against suspected indecency are a matter for individual chief officers.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Remand (Young People)
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make it his policy that young people on remand should be dealt with in such a way as to maximise public protection and minimise serious re-offending while ensuring cost-effectiveness.
  795
  Mr. John Patten
  The Government's policy is to ensure that the courts have the powers they need to deal properly with juvenile defendants having regard to all relevant matters including the protection of the public and the prevention of offending. The Criminal Justice Bill makes the necessary provision.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is currently(a) the average cost, (b) the highest cost and (c) the lowest cost per week of holding a young person on remand in secure accommodation which is provided (i) in premises other than prison accommodation and (ii) in various types of prison accommodation.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Information about remand prisoners is not held separately.

  The average weekly cost of holding a juvenile in a closed youth establishment in 1989–90 was £346. At the establishments with the highest and lowest costs the average weekly costs were £450 and £260 respectively.

  Information about non-prison service establishments is not available.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the alternatives to secure accommodation he is currently considering in respect of young people on remand.

  Mr. John Patten
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health is establishing a national steering group which will consider the practical arrangements for dealing with remanded juveniles under the Criminal Justice Bill.

  Karamjit Singh Chahal
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a further statement on the case of Karamjit Singh Chahal.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave to him on 25 June at columns 405–6.

  Crimes of Violence
  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is his Department's policy towards the monitoring of crimes of violence against lesbians and gay men; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The monitoring of crimes of violence against lesbians and gay men is, in common with many other types of crime, a matter for individual chief officers. For example, I understand that the Metropolitan police have identified four divisions in which specific monitoring of such attacks is being undertaken on a pilot basis with a view to developing good practice. Attacks on lesbians and gay men are as unacceptable as any other incidents of violence against individuals, and I have every confidence in the determination and ability of the police to protect all members of the public.

  Returning Residents
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people, by nationality, have requested entry to the United Kingdom, as returning residents, in each quarter since May 1990; how many have been(a) readmitted as such, (b) readmitted for a limited period and (c) been refused entry to the United Kingdom.
  796
  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Cymag
  Mr. Onslow
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration his Department is giving to banning the possession and sale of Cymag.

  Mr. John Patten
  The Poisons Rules 1982 already prohibit the sale of Cymag to the general public. The Poisons Board in November 1990 considered the case for further strengthening controls on the availability of Cymag but concluded that changes to the poisons legislation would not be justified.

  Bailiffs
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now issued best practice guidance on the use of bailiffs by magistrates courts; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  I hope that it will be possible to publish the guidance next month, and a copy will be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many complaints have been received by clerks of the court as to the actions or conduct of bailiffs involved in the collection of poll tax debts; and of these how many cases resulted in the complaint being held in favour of the complainant.

  Mr. John Patten
  Bailiffs used to levy distress in community charge cases are employed by the local authority, and not by the court. Justices' clerks will therefore not necessarily be aware of complaints about their conduct, and we do not have information about their number. However, the Community Charges (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1989 make provision for a person aggrieved by the levy of, or an attempt to levy, a distress to appeal to a magistrates court. A total of 14 such appeals were heard during the last financial year. Information about their outcome is not readily available.

  Police Conduct
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is now the total amount paid by the Metropolitan police in(a) out-of-court settlements and (b) in-court awards arising from complaints about police conduct in the past 12 months to date.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I understand from the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis that the amounts paid by the Metropolitan police in settlements out of court and under awards made by the courts arising from allegations of wrongful acts by Metropolitan police officers are as follows:

  Settlements out of court £

  Awards made by the courts £

  1990

  557,214

  188,110

  11991

  280,169

  17,901

  1 To 23 July.

  Summer Projects, Manchester
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on funds offered for summer projects in the Moss Side and Hulme areas of Manchester by his Department; what requests were received from local groups; and what was his response.

  Mr. John Patten
  The hon. Member and others have expressed concern about the risks to children in Moss Side and Hulme of being drawn into crime and drug misuse. Local groups have discussed these concerns with Home Office officials, the local probation service, and officials from the Moss Side and Hulme task force and Manchester and Salford city action team, and have proposed organising a range of activities for young people this summer and beyond, aimed at reducing these risks. Funding of £46,300 to support these schemes has been offered by the Home Office, Department of Education and Science, local task force and city action team.

  Prisoners (Searches)
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many strip searches were carried out on female prisoners sentenced category A and remand prisoners being held in Her Majesty's prisons, Durham and Brixton, since November 1989; what prison contraband, smuggled item, or illegal correspondence was discovered in any search; in how many cases prisoners refused to be searched and had to be restrained while the search was being conducted; and what were the reasons for each search.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Between 1 November 1989 and 30 June 1991, category A women prisoners held in Brixton and Durham prisons were strip searched on a. total of 254 occasions. No unauthorised article was found. On no occasion did the prisoners refuse to be strip searched. Strip searching is a routine security measure to which all prisoner—smale and female—are subject, both for its deterrent effect and as a means of discovering unauthorised articles.

  Magistrates Courts
  Mr. John Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received about the reorganisation of magistrates courts in England and Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  We have received many comments from interested bodies and individuals on the report of the magistrates courts scrutiny, and have been giving them careful consideration.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what changes he proposes to make to the formula for cash limiting the magistrates courts system to meet the needs of rural areas.

  Mr. John Patten
  We shall give careful thought to the representations about the needs of rural areas made in the course of consultations on the proposed formula for the allocation of current grant before reaching final decisions.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has on the reasons for the closure of Darwen magistrates court.
  798
  Mr. John Patten
  I understand that no decision has yet been taken by the Lancashire magistrates courts committee that this courthouse should be closed.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many rural magistrates courts he estimates will close in England and Wales in 1991 and 1992.

  Mr. John Patten
  We have made no such estimate, since decisions on the maintenance of courthouses are in the first place matters for the responsible magistrates courts committees in consultation with their paying authorities. Cash limits on current grant will reinforce the need for committees to consider the number and location of courthouses as part of their general responsibility for providing an effective and efficient service, having regard to the needs of court users as well as to affordability; but the effect on individual committees will depend on the total grant available to support magistrates courts expenditure and on the arrangements for its allocation by area, on which final decisions have not yet been made.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received with regard to the closure of magistrates courts in Dyfed; and what action he proposes to take.

  Mr. John Patten
  We have as yet received no representations in relation to the decision by the Dyfed magistrates courts committee on 18 July to close 11 courthouses. If there is an appeal by the paying authority under the Justices of the Peace Act 1979 against this decision we shall of course consider it on its merits.

  Monmouth Police Station
  Mr. Edwards
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has had concerning funding in relation to the condition of Monmouth police station; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Representations about Monmouth police station have been received from members of the Gwent police authority and from a number of hon. Members.

  Charity Laws
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to reform the current charity laws; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to reform the current charity laws; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  The Government's proposals for reforming charity law are set out in the White Paper, "Charities: A Framework for the Future", published in 1989. There is always pressure for a place in the legislative programme, but preparation of a Bill is well advanced and we hope that there will be an early opportunity to introduce the legislation.

  Prison Escapes
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many category A prisoners escaped from dispersal prisons during 1990–91; and from which establishments.
  799
  Mrs. Rumbold
  On 15 January 1991 a category A prisoner under escort to Her Majesty's prison Full Sutton escaped, in company with a category B prisoner. Both were recaptured later the same day.

  During 1990–91 no category A prisoners have escaped from within a dispersal prison.

  Criminal Records
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to make a statement on the scrutiny of criminal records.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The scrutiny report raises some difficult and sensitive issues on the scope, management and disclosure of criminal records which require careful consideration. The Government's views on the report will be made known as soon as possible.

  Gambling Machines
  Mrs. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his Department has received any representations from Mr. Mark Griffiths, of Polytechnic South West, Plymouth, on the effects of gambling machine abuse upon young people.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  No.

  Sick Leave
  Sir Geoffrey Finsberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when work commenced on the proposed circular on sickness and sick leave; and when he expects it to be published.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Police Records
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if there is a recommended or statutory period during which police forces should retain interview notes and case documents before they are destroyed;

  (2) if he will make it his policy to issue guidance that no police interview notes or case documents should be destroyed for as long as a person is imprisoned on conviction of the crime involved;

  Table 1

  Spouses and fiance (e) in the Indian sub-continent applying for entry clearance for settlement in the United Kingdom

  Number of persons or percentage

  Husbands

  1st quarter

  2nd quarter

  1990 3rd quarter

  4th quarter

  Year

  1991 1st quarter

  New Delhi (including Calcutta)

  Applications received1

  70

  90

  80

  60

  290

  70

  Applications granted2

  60

  50

  50

  40

  200

  40

  Applications refused initially

  40

  20

  30

  40

  130

  50

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  35

  n.a.

  Bombay (including Madras)

  Applications received1

  100

  70

  50

  40

  270

  100

  Applications granted2

  60

  40

  60

  30

  190

  30

  Applications refused initially

  50

  40

  50

  50

  200

  40

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  44

  n.a.

  Dhaka

  Applications received1

  140

  150

  160

  160

  610

  130

  Applications granted2

  40

  70

  60

  50

  220

  70

  Applications refused initially

  90

  70

  100

  80

  340

  60

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  58

  n.a.

  800
  (3) if he will list the practice of each police force in England and Wales for the retention of interview notes and case documents in serious cases.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  There is no such statutory or recommended period. The policy on retention of interview notes and case documents is a matter for each chief officer of police.

  Information on the practice of individual forces is not held centrally. At present we have no plans to issue guidance to police forces.

  Immigration
  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applications for entry clearance from(a) wives, (b) husbands, (c) fiances and (d) fiancés made at British posts in (i) New Delhi, (ii) Bombay, (iii) Calcutta, (iv) Madras, (v) Dhaka, (vi) Islamabad, (vii) Karachi and (viii) Colombo for each quarter since January 1990 were (1) received, (2) granted and (3) refused; how many refusals at each post were (A) wholly and (B) partly because the visa officer was not satisfied that the primary purpose of the marriage was not immigration; how many refusals at each post were (x) wholly and (y) partly because the visa officer was not satisfied that the couple could support and accommodate themselves without recourse to public funds; what was the refusal rate at each post; and what percentage of those refusals were (I) wholly and (II) partly on primary purpose grounds.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  [holding answer 24 July 1991]: Information for the Indian sub-continent for the whole of 1990 and, where available, for the first quarter of 1991 is given in the tables. Where the numbers are small, the figeures for individual posts have been combined. To keep down the cost, only annual data for 1990 have been given. For information for the first quarter of 1990, I refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 26 July 1990 at columns 468–72.

  Information on refusals which takes account of successful appeals is not compiled for periods shorter than 12 months. Corresponding information for Colombo is not available centrally.
  801

  Husbands

  1st quarter

  2nd quarter

  1990 3rd quarter

  4th quarter

  Year

  1991 1st quarter

  Islamabad (including Karachi)

  Applications received1

  620

  490

  420

  410

  1,950

  560

  Applications granted2

  210

  200

  230

  350

  1,000

  390

  Applications refused initially

  530

  370

  270

  380

  1,550

  410

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  53

  n.a.

  Number of persons or percentage

  Fiances

  1st quarter

  2nd quarter

  1990 3rd quarter

  4th quarter

  Year

  1991 1st quarter

  New Delhi (including Calcutta)

  Applications received1

  80

  60

  60

  40

  230

  50

  Applications granted2

  30

  20

  10

  20

  80

  20

  Applications refused initially

  30

  20

  20

  40

  110

  40

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  56

  n.a.

  Bombay (including Madras)

  Applications received1

  80

  60

  40

  40

  220

  70

  Applications granted2

  60

  40

  20

  20

  150

  10

  Applications refused initially

  30

  50

  30

  50

  160

  30

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  40

  n.a.

  Dhaka

  Applications received1

  10

  4—

  4—

  4—

  20

  4—

  Applications granted2

  4—

  4—

  4—

  4—

  10

  4—

  Applications refused initially

  10

  4—

  4—

  4—

  20

  4—

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  72

  n.a.

  Islamabad (including Karachi)

  Applications received1

  110

  80

  60

  60

  310

  70

  Applications granted2

  60

  40

  60

  70

  230

  50

  Applications refused initially

  210

  110

  100

  80

  500

  70

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  60

  n.a.

  Number of persons or percentage

  Wives

  1st quarter

  2nd quarter

  1990 3rd quarter

  4th quarter

  Year

  1991 1st quarter

  New Delhi (including Calcutta)

  Applications received1

  180

  190

  140

  140

  660

  200

  Applications granted2

  160

  160

  170

  170

  660

  130

  Applications refused initially

  10

  20

  30

  30

  100

  20

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  12

  n/a

  Bombay (including Madras)

  Applications received1

  460

  280

  200

  250

  1,210

  450

  Applications granted2

  270

  210

  370

  250

  1,100

  320

  Applications refused initially

  20

  20

  30

  30

  110

  30

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  9

  n/a

  Dhaka

  Applications received1

  310

  320

  330

  270

  1,240

  240

  Applications granted2

  350

  350

  350

  200

  1,250

  240

  Applications refused initially

  90

  60

  70

  50

  270

  30

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  6

  n/a

  Islamabad (including Karachi)

  Applications received1

  920

  650

  670

  560

  2,800

  800

  Applications granted2

  660

  700

  860

  730

  2,950

  890

  Applications refused initially

  120

  100

  60

  70

  340

  90

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  11

  n/a

  Number of persons or percentage

  Fiancees

  1st quarter

  2nd quarter

  1990 3rd quarter

  4th quarter

  Year

  1991 1st quarter

  New Delhi (including Calcutta)

  Applications received1

  60

  70

  60

  50

  240

  50

  Applications granted2

  50

  20

  20

  60

  150

  40

  802

  803

  Fiancees

  1st quarter

  2nd quarter

  1990 3rd quarter

  4th quarter

  Year

  1991 1st quarter

  Applications refused initially

  20

  4—

  10

  20

  50

  30

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  24

  n/a

  Bombay (including Madras)

  Applications received1

  70

  40

  40

  40

  200

  50

  Applications received2

  40

  30

  20

  40

  130

  30

  Applications refused initially

  10

  10

  10

  10

  40

  10

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  22

  n/a

  Dhaka

  Applications received1

  10

  4—

  10

  10

  30

  10

  Applications granted2

  4—

  10

  4—

  4—

  20

  4—

  Applications refused initially

  4—

  4—

  4—

  4—

  4—

  4—

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  6

  n/a

  Islamabad (including Karachi)

  Applications received1

  50

  50

  50

  40

  190

  50

  Applications granted>2

  60

  40

  60

  40

  200

  50

  Applications refused initially

  10

  10

  10

  10

  40

  4—

  Refusal rate (percentage)3

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  16

  n/a

  1 Including applications subsequently withdrawn or lapsed

  2 Granted initially or on appeal

  3 Applications refused initially, minus applications granted on appeal, as a percentage of applications decided

  4 5 or fewer

  n/a = not available

  Table 2

  Spouses and fiance(e) in the Indian Sub-continent refused1 entry clearance for settlement in the United Kingdom in 1990

  Number of persons or percentage

  Number refused because couple could not accommodate and/or maintain themselves without recourse to public funds:

  Number refused because primary purpose of the marriage was to obtain admission to the United Kingdom:

  Primary purpose refusals as a percentage of all refusals:

  Solely for these

  Partly for these reasons

  Solely for this reason

  Partly for this reason

  Solely on primary purpose grounds

  Partly on primary purpose grounds

  New Delhi (including Calcutta)

  Husbands

  —

  10

  60

  10

  53

  10

  Fiances

  4—

  10

  60

  10

  60

  12

  Wives

  10

  10

  50

  4—

  57

  3

  Fiancees

  —

  10

  60

  10

  49

  28

  Bombay (including Madras)

  Husbands

  4—

  10

  150

  10

  92

  4

  Fiances

  4—

  4—

  100

  10

  86

  8

  Wives

  10

  4—

  60

  4—

  59

  2

  Fiancees

  4—

  4—

  20

  4—

  59

  5

  Dhaka

  Husbands

  10

  60

  220

  60

  70

  18

  Fiances

  —

  10

  10

  10

  241

  235

  Wives

  40

  30

  4—

  10

  2

  5

  Fiancees

  —

  —

  —

  —

  3—

  3—

  Islamabad (including Karachi)

  Husbands

  30

  700

  390

  690

  34

  60

  Fiances

  4—

  190

  120

  210

  34

  60

  Wives

  90

  40

  20

  20

  11

  12

  Fiancees

  4—

  10

  10

  10

  19

  24

  Total Indian sub-continent

  Husbands

  30

  770

  820

  770

  47

  44

  Fiances

  4—

  200

  280

  230

  49

  41

  Wives

  140

  70

  130

  30

  25

  6

  Fiancees

  10

  20

  50

  10

  42

  20

  1 Applications refused initially, minus applications granted on appeal.

  2 Percentage based on fewer than 15 applications refused.

  3 Percentage not calculated for five or fewer applications refused.

  4 Five or fewer, or ½ per cent, or less.

  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applications for settlement by wives and children in(a) Dhaka and (b) Islamabad
  804
  were (i) received, (ii) granted, (iii) refused, (iv) deferred at

  805
  first interview, (v) lapsed and (vi) outstanding and information requested is given in the table. beginning of 1990.

  Wives and children applying for entry clearance for settlement in the United Kingdom1

  Number of persons

  Applications

  Post

  Newly received2

  Granted3

  Refused initially4

  Referred or deferred5

  Withdrawn or lapsed4

  A waiting first interview at end of quarter

  Dhaka

  1990

  1st quarter

  1,320

  1,570

  520

  470

  280

  1,600

  2nd quarter

  1,190

  1,650

  380

  6—

  240

  1,300

  3rd quarter

  1,110

  1,330

  360

  6—

  160

  1,100

  4th quarter

  980

  650

  200

  6—

  20

  1,500

  1991

  1st quarter

  640

  940

  220

  6—

  50

  1,300

  Islamabad

  1990

  1st quarter

  1,190

  990

  250

  640

  100

  1,700

  2nd quarter

  860

  1,050

  200

  6—

  60

  1,400

  3rd quarter

  890

  1,170

  130

  6—

  40

  1,200

  4th quarter

  840

  1,190

  180

  6—

  40

  1,000

  1991

  1st quarter

  980

  1,240

  160

  6—

  60

  1,300

  Karachi

  1990

  1st quarter

  100

  60

  10

  10

  7—

  70

  2nd quarter

  70

  80

  7—

  6—

  7—

  50

  3rd quarter

  80

  70

  10

  6—

  10

  50

  4th quarter

  60

  50

  —

  6—

  7—

  50

  1991

  1st quarter

  80

  40

  7—

  6—

  —

  100

  1 Including all persons applying for a certificate of entitlement to the right of abode in the United Kingdom.

  2 Data include some double counting in respect of applications recorded initially for entry clearance and then subsequently for a certificate of entitlement.

  3 Granted initially or on appeal.

  4 Since about the end of 1989, settlement applications have been refused in the circumstances where previously they would have been lapsed.

  5 Referred to the Home Office for decision or deferred for further inquiries.

  6 Data discontinued from May 1990.

  1 Five or fewer.

  Violence Against Women
  Mrs. Ray Michie
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the progress towards implementing the recommendations of the Women's National Commission report on violence against women.

  Mr. John Patten
  [holding answer 28 June 1991]: We welcome the Women's National Commission's report on violence against women in 1985. In the light of that report, and of research studies which have provided fresh insight into offences of rape and domestic violence, we have issued guidance to the police on how to improve their response to these crimes; strengthened the powers of the courts to punish offenders and to protect victims; and encouraged local agencies to work together to provide help and support to women who are victims of violent or sexual crimes.
  806
  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  [holding answer 24 July 1991]: The information requested is given in the table.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  Bank Auditing
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to introduce legislation under which all banks would be required to file their annual accounts within 90 days of the year end.

  Mr. Maples
  None. All limited companies are already subject to statutory time limits for the filing of accounts.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to introduce legislation under which all banks would be required to publish a cash flow statement and related data.

  Mr. Maples
  The Government have no plans to introduce legislation in this area. I understand, however, that the Accounting Standards Board is working towards the publication later this year of an accounting standard which will require companies to include a cash flow statement in their annual accounts.
  807
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what plans he has to propose legislation to prevent banks from operating off-balance sheet financing schemes in their financial statements;

  (2) what plans he has to introduce legislation under which bank auditors will be changed every five years;

  (3) whether he has any plans to propose legislation under which bank depositors would individually be able to sue the auditors if the bank fails.

  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will propose legislation under which banks selling off-balance sheet financing schemes will not be licensed;

  (2) if he will propose legislation under which a hank's auditors would be banned from supplying non-audit services;

  (3) if he will propose legislation under which the annual reports of the banks will be required to publish the highest and the lowest interest rates charged by them during the year;

  (4) if he will propose legislation under which all banks will be required to publish the auditor's comments on the internal financial controls of banks;

  (5) if he will propose legislation under which all bank advertisements will be required clearly to state the maximum protection available to depositors.

  Mr. Maples
  The Government have no plans to introduce legislation.

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any plans to investigate the role of unqualified individuals in the audit of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International.

  Mr. Maples
  I am not aware of any suggestion that the individuals in charge of the audit of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International were not suitably qualified.

  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to review the operations in the United Kingdom of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International in respect of inducements to clients and information provided to customers, with a view to possible amendments to the banking legislation.

  Mr. Maples
  I refer the hon. Member to the announcement made by the Prime Minister on 22 July at column 757.

  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what communications he has received from Ernst and Young about the operations of BCCI.

  Mr. Maples
  Ernst and Young did not communicate any doubts about the operations of BCCI to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor would I expect them to have done so.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what information he has on the incidence of prosecutions of BCCI officials for money laundering in the United States of America since 1986.

  Mr. Maples
  I understand that employees of companies in the BCCI group were indicted in Tampa, Florida in 1988 and subsequently convicted in 1990. Two prosecutions were brought in the United Kingdom in connection with the same case.
  808
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the number of United Kingdom depositors involved in the BCCI bank, together with the total capital involvement.

  Mr. Maples
  I understand that the branches of BCCI in the United Kingdom had some 70,000 depositors including overseas and United Kingdom residents and 140,000 accounts in both sterling and other currencies. It has not yet been possible for the (provisional) liquidator to estimate the capital involved.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether BCCI had at the time of, or recently prior to, its closure the control of any other banks with current operations in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Maples
  No.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions have been held between the Treasury and Mr. Agha Hasan Abedi about BCCI banking operations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maples
  There have been no discussions between the Treasury and Mr. Agha Hasan Abedi.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement about the scale of illegal money laundering identified in the operations of BCCI in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Maples
  One employee in the United Kingdom operations of BCCI was convicted of money laundering last year. There have been no further prosecutions of United Kingdom employees of BCCI for money laundering.

  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will place in the Library copies of all correspondence he received from the Governor of the Bank of England relating to the Bank of Credit and Commerce International since June 1987.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  No. Exchanges between the Governor and myself are confidential. Any material relating to BCCI would, moreover, be covered by the provisions of part V of the Banking Act 1987. Lord Justice Bingham will of course have access to any correspondence received from the Governor relating to BCCI.

  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what consultations his Department had with the Governor of the Bank of England about his visit to Abu Dhabi to meet officials concerning the BCCI issue.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  [holding answer 22 July 1991]: My officials and I have discussed BCCI with the Governor on a number of occasions over the last few weeks, both before and after his visit to Abu Dhabi.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to consult a creditors' meeting before a liquidator is appointed in connection with BCCI.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before the summer recess. I shall therefore write to the hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in the Library.
  809
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was informed of the intention of the Bank of England to close the Bank of Credit and Commerce International.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  [holding answer 22 July 1991]: I was informed on 28 June that the Bank of England proposed to call the College of Supervisors together to consider closure.

  Banking Act (Disclosure Requirements)
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what monitoring he does of accounting disclosure requirements imposed under the Banking Act; and how this is reported to Parliament.

  Mr. Maples
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before the summer recess. I shall therefore write to the hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Banks (Investigations)
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give an undertaking that in internal investigations of banks carried out under the Banking Act partners from auditing firms criticised by Department Trade and Industry inspectors will not be used.

  Mr. Maples
  I am advised that the Bank of England will continue to take into account all relevant factors in deciding who should conduct investigations commissioned under the Banking Act.

  Committee on Local Authority Borrowing
  Mr. Tim Smith
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the members of the Treasury committee on local authority borrowing; how often the committee meets; what are its terms of reference; when the status of the list of authorised institutions was last discussed; what advice the representative of the Bank of England gave about the status of the list; if he will publish the minutes of the meeting; and what information he has about the subsequent circulation to local authorities by the local authority associations represented at the meeting of the advice given by the Bank of England.

  Mr. Maples
  The Committee on Local Authority Borrowing is chaired by the Treasury and includes Government and Bank of England officials and representatives from the local authority associations. There is no regular cycle for meetings. The terms of reference are"to consider Local Authority Borrowing".

  The status of the list of institutions authorised under the Banking Act 1987 was discussed at the meeting held on 10 May. The issue was raised because some local authorities had deposits with Chancery bank, which had been put into administration. A Bank of England representative advised that:
  "it was important to regard the list of authorised institutions as just that: a list of institutions authorised to take deposits at the date of the list.… The list did not say anything about the relative creditworthiness of the institutions or that they could not fail. That was an assessment the local authorities, and other depositors, had to make."
  810
  A copy of the minutes of the meeting are being placed in the Library. The minutes are sent to those present. Wider circulation by the representatives of the local authority associations is a matter for them.

  Butchers
  Mr. Robert Banks
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what information he has on the number of independent butchers' shops that have ceased trading in the last 12 months.

  Mr. Maples
  I have been asked to reply. The number of traders registered for VAT as butchers was 13,641 in April 1991 compared with 14,181 12 months previously.

  Income Tax, Scotland
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what is the average income tax payable by each tax unit in Scotland;

  (2) how many tax units there are in Scotland paying tax at the (a) basic rate and (b) higher rate.

  Mr. Maude
  The estimated numbers of single people and married couples resident in Scotland liable to income tax solely at the basic rate is 1·77 million for 1988–89, the latest available year. In addition some 90,000 were liable to tax at the higher rate. The average income tax liability per tax-paying tax unit is estimated to be £1,880 in 1988–89.

  Foundation for Sport and the Arts
  Mr. Ken Hargreaves
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Her Majesty's Government's relationship with the Foundation for Sport and the Arts and the Football Trust will be reviewed in the event of a change of ownership of any member of the Pools Promoters Association.

  Mr. Mellor
  Whether or not Her Majesty's Government would need to review its relationship with the Foundation for Sport and the Arts or with the Football Trust would depend upon who the new owners were and on their attitude to their company's continued participation in either body.

  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what will be the channel of communication between Her Majesty's Government and the Foundation for Sport and the Arts, once the foundation has been formally established.

  Mr. Mellor
  It is important that there should be a single channel of communication between Her Majesty's Government and the Foundation for Sport and the Arts. It will be provided by the Department of Education and Science and, in particular, the Minister for Sport. A representative of the Department will attend meetings of the foundation's trustees. I regret any confusion that may have been caused by my mistaken reference to another Minister in this context during the recent debate on clause 114 of the Finance Bill on 15 July at column 172.

  Central Statistical Office
  Dr. Bray
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how many staff work in the Central Statistical Office; and what is the distribution of their grades;
  811
  (2) what is the annual budget of the Central Statistical Office.

  Mr. Maples
  As at 12 July 1991, there were 1,099–5 staff employed by the Central Statistical Office, with a grade distribution as follows:

  Number

  Grade 1A

  1·0

  Grade 2

  1·0

  Grade 3

  3·0

  Grade 4

  1·0

  Grade 5

  20·0

  Grade 6

  3·0

  Grade 7

  67·5

  Senior executive officer

  34·0

  Senior assistant/assistant statistician

  25·0

  Higher executive officer

  142·0

  Executive officer

  274·0

  Administrative officer

  384·5

  Administrative assistant

  65·0

  Higher graphics officer

  1·0

  Graphics officer

  4·0

  Senior information officer

  1·0

  Information officer

  1·0

  Assistant information officer

  1·0

  Mapping and charting officer

  1·0

  Librarian

  1·0

  Typing manager

  2·0

  Phototypesetter

  1·0

  Senior personal secretary

  3·0

  Personal secretary

  22·5

  Typist

  16·0

  Support manager 3

  1·0

  Support grade band 1

  6·0

  Support grade band 2

  17·0

  Total

  1,099·5

  Note: Part-time staff are counted as 0·5.

  Details of the 1991–92 provision for the Central Statistical Office (class XVIII, vote 13) are shown in Supply Estimates 1991–92 (HC 236-XVIII). The net provision for 1991–92 is £31,741,000, comprising gross provision of £32,791,000 and appropriations in aid of £1,050,000.

  Company Vans
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the maximum penalties that can be imposed on companies which fail to register the information detailing the private use of company vans when completing PIID forms for the Inland Revenue.

  Mr. Maude
  The maximum penalty which an employer can be charged for fraudulently or negligently completing a form P11D is £3,000.

  National Savings Office, Durham
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many complaints he has received regarding the national savings office in Durham and delays in notification to regional post offices of payments to be made on specific dates; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maples
  I have received no complaints of this nature during 1991. If my hon. Friend has a specific case in mind perhaps he would like to write to me or the director of savings so that inquiries can be made.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, pursuant to his reply of 22 July, if he will make it his policy to keep statistics on parliamentary questions for written answers to his Department to show how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Mellor
  No. Answers to parliamentary questions are published in the Official Report and are therefore open to public scrutiny; additionally, statistical data may be accessed through POLIS.

  Bank of England
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the dates on which he met the Governor of the Bank of England since June 1987; and what was discussed on each occasion.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  I have met the Governor from time to time to discuss a wide range of issues.

  Duty-free Goods
  Sir Barney Hayhoe
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the international treaties or agreements which govern or are relevant to the existence and continuation of the duty-free concession for international travellers.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before the summer recess. I shall therefore write to my right hon. Friend and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Deposit Takers
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the banking companies on the Bank of England's current list of deposit takers supplied to local authorities.

  Mr. Maples
  The Department of the Environment wrote to local authorities on 21 June asking them to complete a routine statistical return of their borrowing and lending. Enclosed with their letter was a list of "institutions included within United Kingdom banks (at 31 December 1990)". The list was provided solely to assist completion of the statistical return. It is published annually in the Bank of England'sQuarterly Bulletin and I have placed a copy in the Library.

  Personal Equity Plans
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the latest figures for personal equity plans.

  Mr. Maude
  Personal equity plans continue to do very well. In 1990–91 a further half million plans were taken out, with initial investment of £1·6 billion. The average amount invested was a little over £3,000.

  The total number of plans taken out, since their introduction in 1987, is now nearly 1·5 million. And the total subscribed—ignoring withdrawals and growth—is almost £4 billion.
  813
  These figures do not yet reflect the changes announced in this year's Budget.

  Public Service Pensions
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he estimates would be the cost of increasing the pensions from a current date of those retired public servants whose pensions were permanently depressed as a result of retirement during the 1970s and 1980s when their pay was held down by Government policy but later the subject of special reviews for those remaining in service, in accordance with the arrangements set out in Inland Revenue memorandum No. 12 of February 1974.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before the summer recess. I shall therefore write to the hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Western Isles Council
  Sir Nicholas Fairbairn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list for each transaction the sums advanced by the Treasury to Western Isles islands council in 1990 and 1991; if he will give the reasons for each advance; and what was the rate of interest charged by the Treasury on each advance.

  Mr. Maples
  [holding answer on 22 July 1991]: The Treasury does not lend money to local authorities. Public sector lending to local authorities is carried out by the Public Works Loan Board. The PWLB does not disclose its transactions with individual authorities.

  Interest Rate Swaps
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what information he has on which local authorities were involved in problems with interest rate swaps, including details of the amounts involved in each case.

  Mr. Key
  I have asked to reply.

  I am not aware of any comprehensive list of authorities which were involved in interest rate swaps and the amounts involved in each case. A list of authorities was published in The Daily Telegraph on 2 January 1991 and was the subject of comment in the Local Government Chronicle on 11 January. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the list.

  Accounting Law
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will review accounting law and practice concerning banks and their subsidiaries.

  Mr. Maples
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has just completed final consultations on draft regulations to implement the EC Bank Accounts Directive. I have no plans to review the area separately.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  Office Costs Allowance
  Mr. Page
  To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he will refer the office costs allowance to the Top Salaries Review Body.
  814
  Mr. MacGregor
  The Top Salaries Review Body last reviewed the office costs allowance in 1987. I have written to the chairman of the Top Salaries Review Body, asking him to conduct a further review, in the following terms:"As you know, I was very grateful that you were able to deal so quickly with the recent reviews of the Parliamentary Pension Scheme and Resettlement Grants.
  The TSRB has also periodically reviewed aspects of the structure of Parliamentary allowances. The Office Costs Allowance was last reviewed in 1987. The Government does not consider that a fundamental review of Parliamentary allowances is necessary at present, but would be grateful if the TSRB would conduct a further review of the operation of the Office Costs Allowance in the House of Commons dealing as before with structure, level and uprating.
  It would be very helpful if the TSRB could report on the Office Costs Allowance by the end of the year."

  Parliamentary Sittings
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what information he has on the average number of sitting days per year over the past five years for the lower house of the legislature for each of the EC countries, together with the United States of America and Canada; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 8 July 1991]: No detailed information is kept by my office, but I understand that some of the data requested are published in the latest edition (1986) of the Inter-Parliamentary Union's "Parliaments of the World", a copy of which is in the Library of the House.

  New Members (Induction Book)
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what progress has been made in preparing an induction book for new hon. Members, based on codifying all the existing materials issued to new hon. Members by the various Departments and originators in the House of Commons.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 19 July 1991]: Arrangements are now well advanced for the production at the beginning of the next Parliament of a looseleaf A4 size binder containing information about the services provided for Members and their staff by the six Departments of the House and other public agencies. Space will be available in the binder for information for new Members from other services, including the political parties. A final mock-up of this publication will be submitted to the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee for approval before the end of the Session.

  Terrace Dining Rooms
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Lord President of the Council (1) if he will list the total number of bookings in the past 12 months for which details are available for the Terrace Dining Rooms made by(a) Conservative Members and (b) Members of all other parties;

  (2) if he will list the bookings made for the Terrace Dining Rooms in the first full week of June, listing organisations and Members who make the bookings;

  (3) what is the allocation system for Members to book the Terrace Dining Rooms.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 23 July 1991]: In accordance with regulations agreed by the Services

  815
  Committee for banqueting services, Members may book Terrace Dining Rooms A, B, C and D, the Terrace Pavilion, the Members' Dining Room, the Harcourt Grill Room, and the Westminster Hall Cafeteria for functions sponsored by themselves. Members may have no more than three bookings outstanding at any one time in their name.

  It is not the practice to disclose details of bookings made by Members.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has considered alternative uses for Terrace Dining Rooms as(a) creches for the children of hon. Members and staff, (b) study rooms for Members and (c) cafeteria facilities for children's parties visiting the House.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 23 July 1991]: Suggestions similar to those made by the hon. Member have been made in the past, but were considered to be inappropriate. The Terrace Dining Rooms form part of a useful facility for Members to entertain their guests.

  The Services Committee is nevertheless giving serious consideration in different contexts to each of the matters raised in the question.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  South Africa
  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what meetings he had during his recent visit to South Africa in which he discussed or made representations on the causes of violence in Natal and the Transvaal.

  Mrs. Chalker
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs discussed the issue of violence with many of those he met in South Africa including President de Klerk, Mr. Mandela and Chief Buthelezi.

  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what conditions apply to grant payments by Her Majesty's Government to the Inkatha organization in South Africa.

  Mrs. Chalker
  We do not give direct financial support to any party in South Africa. We have given material help to organisations in South Africa previously excluded from the national political process. So far we have given to the ANC £71,500 worth of assistance, to Inkatha £43,783 and to the PAC £2,784. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs outlined the conditions applying to this assistance in his reply to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Central (Mr. Caborn) on 13 June 1990 at column 255.

  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he made to President de Klerk on his recent visit to South Africa, on the need for the South African Government to maintain law and order in an impartial manner; and what representations have been made by the European Community.

  Mrs. Chalker
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs stressed to President de Klerk and his ministers the need to ensure 816
  that the security forces act impartially and effectively. The European Community made a demarche to the South African Government on 28 May, urging them to do everything in their power to put an end to violence, effectively and impartially.

  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the South African Government concerning the covert activities of South Africa's security services.

  Mrs. Chalker
  We discuss a wide range of issues with the South African Government regularly. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs spoke to Mr. Pik Botha, the South African Foreign Minister, on 24 July.

  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish the sums of money paid to Her Majesty's Government either directly or by the British ambassador to South Africa's special fund to Inkatha in each year since 1988.

  Mrs. Chalker
  We have made no payments to any fund for Inkatha. We have made available material help to them and others previously excluded from the national political process as explained in answer to an earlier question.

  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what meetings during his recent visit to South Africa he had with Chief Buthelezi; and if he raised the involvement of members of the Kwa Zulu Assembly in violence in Natal.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Chief Buthelezi called on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs in Durban on 9 July. They discussed ways in which to bring about an end to violence in Natal. They agreed that all political leaders have a responsibility to use their influence to reduce tension and promote political tolerance.

  Western Sahara
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government intend to sponsor the sending of a parliamentary monitoring team to the referendum in the western Sahara.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We understand that in due course the United Nations Secretariat will approach member states of the United Nations Security Council to ask whether they intend to send unofficial observers to monitor the referendum campaign and the referendum, due to take place in early 1992. We shall inform the House when we have further information.

  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government intend to contribute(a) forces, (b) police and (c) civilian personnel to the United Nations operations conducting the referendum in the western Sahara.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We are contributing to the cost of the operation. In addition we are providing the peace-keeping force with 15 military observers.

  Soviet Union
  Mr. John Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make representations to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics about the failure to grant exit visas to Olga Mariya and Yakov Bekker of Doshanbe, Yefim and Yevglariya Gelman of Chelyabinsk, and the Gurevich family and Vladimir Idelson of Leningrad, to enable them to rejoin family in Israel.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We are prepared to consider raising these cases with the Soviet authorities, but to make representations effectively we would need further information from either the families or concerned organisations.

  Vienna Talks
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the content of recent NATO proposals for reducing military manpower in Europe at the Vienna talks.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Further negotiations are taking place in Vienna, in accordance with the CFE treaty, focusing primarily on measures to limit national military manpower in Europe. Under NATO proposals tabled on 4 July, a broad definition of manpower would be agreed including all full-time military personnel of land, air and air defence forces together with personnel in all other land-based units holding equipment limited by the CFE treaty. NATO's proposals would require each participant to limit and where necessary reduce its military personnel through an international commitment, in order to achieve a stable and secure balance of forces at a lower overall manpower level. Limitations should be implemented within 40 months of the CFE treaty entry into force.

  Nuclear Arms
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is his policy for reducing the overall remaining Soviet nuclear threat to Britain through negotiation; and what proposals he has for negotiations to reduce the threat(a) from non-strategic naval nuclear missiles and (b) from Soviet nuclear-capable aircraft.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We welcome the prospect of signature of a START agreement, which will be a milestone towards a safer and more stable world; this agreement will benefit the broader security of the allies. Follow-on talks on strategic arms limitation will be held between the United States and Soviet Union. Proposals concerning coverage of further systems are a matter for the two sides. Soviet aircraft in Europe are already limited by the CFE treaty.

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects the short-range nuclear force talks to begin.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  NATO is committed under the London declaration to talks aimed at reducing US and Soviet short-range nuclear forces in Europe. Preparations for these talks are continuing within the alliance. No date has been set for such talks to begin.

  Chemical Weapons
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether it remains Her Majesty's Government's policy to support the principle of challenge inspections, anytime, anywhere, without right of refusal, for verification of the proposed chemical weapons convention.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We continue to believe that a system of intrusive challenge inspections will represent an essential element of an effective verification regime for the future chemical weapons convention.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations have been received by Her Majesty's Government from other members of the western group of nations since the proposal on challenge inspections was made to the negotiations on the chemical weapons convention at the conference on disarmament on 15 July by Her Majesty's Government, together with Australia, Japan and the United States of America.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have received no formal representations from other members of the western group of nations since proposals for a challenge inspection regime for a future chemical weapons convention were tabled in the conference on disarmament on 15 July. We have been, and shall remain, in close and regular contact with the other members of the western group on this and the remaining outstanding issues in the negotiations.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will place in the Library a copy of the proposal on challenge inspections made to the negotiations on the chemical weapons convention at the conference on disarmament on the 15 July, by Her Majesty's Government, together with Australia, Japan and the United States of America.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  I am making arrangements to place in the Library a copy of CD/CW/WP 352 of 15 July, the conference on disarmament document which sets out the US proposals for a challenge inspection regime which were co-sponsored by the United Kingdom, Japan and Australia.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consultations took place between Her Majesty's Government and the other members of the western group of nations at the conference on disarmament before the proposal on challenge inspections was made to the negotiations on the chemical weapons convention at the conference on disarmament on the 15 July, by her Majesty's Government, together with Australia, Japan and the United States of America.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  There was close and regular consultation between all members of the western group of nations at the conference on disarmament (CD) before the tabling by the United States of the text of a proposed challenge inspection regime under the co-sponsorship of the United Kingdom, Japan and Australia.

  Biological Weapons
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy on the biological weapons convention.
  819
  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We fully support the 1972 biological and toxin weapons convention and believe it represents an important international norm against the development, acquisition and retention of biological and toxin weapons. We hope that measures to strengthen the treaty regime will be agreed at the third review conference in September this year.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proposals Her Majesty's Government will be making to the biological weapons convention review conference to be held in September.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We shall be submitting proposals to strengthen the existing provisions of the biological weapons convention and to maintain its status as an important international norm against biological and toxin weapons. Central to our policy will be proposals to improve and extend the regime of confidence-building measures, to improve organisational arrangements by establishing a supportive body and to examine the feasibility of devising effective verification procedures.

  Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer of 12 July,Official Report, column 520, on what date he placed in the Library a copy of the updated British data exchanged in accordance with section VII of the protocol on notification and exchange of information to the CFE treaty giving the details of the location of British forces in the United Kingdom and continental Europe.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The updated British data exchanged in accordance with section VII of the CFE treaty protocol was added to the Library following the exchange in February this year.

  We have checked with the Library; the papers are available for consultation in the international affairs and defence section.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer of 12 July,Official Report, column 520, if he will place in the Library a copy of the updated United States data exchanged in accordance with section VII of the protocol on notification and exchange of information to the CFE treaty giving the details of the location of United States forces in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Some basic data on equipment holdings is contained in the 1991 Statement on the Defence Estimates.

  Beyond this it is not our responsibility to publish the CFE data provided by other member states. It is up to individual states to publish their own data.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information he has regarding the timetable for ratification of the conventional forces in Europe treaty by other states; and if he will list those countries that have already ratified this treaty.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Czechoslovakia ratified the CFE treaty on 23 July. Most of our NATO allies hope to be able to ratify during the autumn, as do we. Indications from other CFE signatories so far are that they too intend to ratify before the end of the year.

  Mrs. Jamila Sadiq
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the British High Commission in Islamabad sent papers to the Home Office concerning Mrs. Jamila Sadiq (Ref. IMP S767465 (S)) who has applied to join her husband in the United Kingdom; when the post received a request to send a second set of papers concerning her case; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  In accordance with the guidelines on the handling of representations by Members of Parliament in immigration cases, issued to Members on 14 December 1988, I have referred the question to the correspondence unit of the migration and visa department of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The hon. Member will receive a reply from the unit as soon as possible.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  Including the aid wing, this Department has answered 1,989 written questions so far this Session. This compares with 2,203 questions for the comparable period in the 1989–90 Session. Nine from the current session were referred for answer to next steps' chief executives. None was referred during the previous Session. The rest of the information requested is not centrally recorded and could only be provided at disproportionate cost.

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received from the United Kingdom's overseas posts concerning the administration and activities of any branch of BCCI; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  All overseas posts were informed of the action on 5 July by the regulatory authorities in a number of jurisdictions to secure control of the assets of banks in the BCC group. A number of posts have subsequently reported on developments in individual countries. We had reports last year of the indictment of BCCI in Florida on charges of money laundering. We are checking whether we have had reports from posts about other banks in the BCC group prior to 5 July and will write to the hon. Member.

  Hong Kong
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many people arriving in Hong Kong since 12 July in order to attend the global Chinese student union conference there were refused entry to Hong Kong; what reasons were given for their refusal; and what representations have been achieved about this both in the United Kingdom and in Hong Kong.
  821
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  Fourteen people arriving in Hong Kong since 12 July for the conference were denied entry to Hong Kong. These decisions are matters for the Hong Kong Government. Few representations have been received about this in Hong Kong, and still fewer here.

  G7 Summit
  Mr. Grocott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was the total cost to the Exchequer of the G7 summit.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  With many accounts still to be settled, I cannot give a precise figure, but I expect the total cost to be around £7 million.

  South Georgia (Hazardous Waste)
  Mr. Donald Thompson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has been made in removing hazardous materials and waste from the abandoned whaling stations on South Georgia.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  An operation to deal with the problems of potential environmentally damaging materials in the old whaling stations on South Georgia took place from January to May this year. It was funded jointly by the Government of South Georgia and Christian Salvesen plc, who hold the leases to the stations. The work was carried out to specifications laid down by environmental consultants commissioned by the Government of South Georgia, who have now inspected it and approved the success of the operation. Items of historical interest are to be preserved in a South Georgia whaling museum.

ENERGY

  Energy Conservation
  Sir Marcus Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to energy conservation in Government Departments to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mr. Wakeham
  I am required to give agreement in principle that any proposed exhibition meets the criteria laid down by the Serjeant at Arms. If my hon. Friend would care to provide details of the exhibition, I shall give the request full and prompt consideration.

  Renewable Energy
  Mr. Gould
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the progress since September 1990 in implementing a programme to develop renewable energy technologies showing promise of commercial viability; and when he will announce the conclusions of the review of future policy.

  Mr. Wakeham
  My Department has been undertaking a substantial programme to develop renewable energy technologies consistent with the strategy published in 1988 as Energy Paper 55. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, East (Mr. Moynihan) recently announced further funding of £205,000 for the United Kingdom's first shoreline wave energy system, and a822
  £250,000 programme of research into solar energy. Moreover, we have made available considerable financial support through the non-fossil fuel obligation to generators utilising renewable energy technology. The Department's strategy on renewable energy sources is currently being reviewed and I would expect results to be available early in 1992.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what proposals he has to amend or reform the current annual round of bidding by promoters of renewable energy projects for approval by the Non-Fossil Fuel Purchasing Agency.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The procedures to select projects to be contracted in fulfilment of a non-fossil fuel obligation for renewables are a matter for the regional electricity companies and their agents, the Non-Fossil Purchasing Agency Ltd, which must bear in mind that the Director-General of Electricity Supply has to be satisfied with the arrangements.

  Salter's Duck
  Mr. Home Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement about Government policy towards research and development of offshore wave power devices, with specific reference to Salter's Duck.

  Mr. Moynihan
  The Department of Energy is currently reviewing the prospects for wave energy across the whole range from shoreline to large-scale offshore devices, including the Salter Duck. The review is expected to be completed later this year.

  Further funding of £205,000 for the United Kingdom's first shoreline wave energy system on the Scottish island of Islay was announced on 15 July, bringing the total funding by the Department for this device to £900,000.

  Peat
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy, pursuant to his answer of 20 December 1990,Official Report, column 304, to the hon. Member for Thanet, South (Mr. Aitken) whether, in the light of the volume of extraction of peat in the Flow Country, and of the studies conducted for his Department, he will make it his policy to discontinue the use of peat, other than for local domestic use in traditional areas; and if he will set out the policy conclusions for his studies.

  Mr. Moynihan
  The final studies undertaken on behalf of the Department of Energy concerning the potential use of peat as a fuel particularly in relation to Scottish peat resources have now been concluded. My Department does not regard the use of peat as an industrial fuel to be an economic proposition. However the use of peat for any potential application now commands widespread environmental concerns. The findings of these latest studies will be published shortly and include much information on Scottish peat resources which should greatly assist future environmental assessment studies. The Government fully recognise the desirability of preserving peatlands and are actively considering the ways of resolving the apparent conflict between peat extraction and conservation issues.

  Wind Energy
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what consultations he has had with the director of the Meteorological Office concerning the supply of relevant sections of the national wind map to promoters a wind energy projects.

  Mr. Moynihan
  I understand that the Meteorological Ofice routinely sells its wind data to the promoters of wind energy projects, but the Department has had no contact with it regarding this activity.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Licence

  Date of application

  Applicant group

  Current licensees

  Area awarded

  Exploration Licences (XLs)

  XL146

  May 1980

  Clyde Petroleum

  429 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  XL148

  May 1980

  Clyde Petroleum

  116 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  XL149

  May 1980

  Taylor Woodrow RTZ ELF James Finlay Candecca

  158 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  XL150

  May 1980

  Amoco

  476 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  XL167

  August 1981

  Weeks Petroleum Lennox Oil Whitehall Petroleum

  486 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  XL202

  June 1982

  Taylor Woodrow RTZ ELF James Finlay Candecca Resources

  491 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  Production Licences (PLs)

  PL076

  December 1967

  BP Exploration

  477 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  Home Oil

  PL077

  December 1967

  BP

  Kelt U.K. Ltd.

  469 sq kms

  Home Oil

  Candecca Resources Marinex Exploration Tullow Exploration

  PL079

  December 1967

  BP

  Kelt U.K. Ltd.

  488 sq kms

  Home Oil

  Candecca Resources Marinex Exploration Tullow Exploration

  PL080

  December 1967

  BP

  Kelt U.K. Ltd.

  470 sq kms

  Home Oil

  Candecca Resources Marinex Exploration Tullow Exploration

  PL081

  December 1967

  BP

  Kelt U.K. Ltd.

  Home Oil

  Candecca Resources Marinex Exploration Tullow Exploration

  PL164

  February 1969

  Anco Exploration

  467 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  Gas Exploration, Ryedale
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy how many licences have been granted for the exploration of gas in the Ryedale district.

  Mr. Wakeham
  Since the introduction of the Petroleum (Production) Regulations 1966, 23 petroleum licences have been awarded covering areas wholly or partly within the Ryedale district. Of these, 13 are still in existence. These licences confer rights to explore for oil as well as gas. I have placed in the Libraries of both Houses a copy of a map which shows the current licensed areas in the Ryedale district.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list(a) the area, (b) the applicant and (c) the date of all applications that have been made to date to take up licences granted for gas exploration in the Ryedale district.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The table lists the licences which have been awarded for areas which are wholly or partly in Ryedale district since the introduction of the Petroleum (Production) Regulations 1966. The licences confer rights to explore for oil as well as gas.
  825

  Licence

  Date of application

  Applicant group

  Current licensees

  Area awarded

  PL234

  July 1982

  Taylor Woodrow RTZ ELF James Finlay Candecca Resources

  Kelt U.K. Ltd. Candecca Resources Nedlloyd Energy

  150 sq kms

  Exploration Licences (EXLs)

  EXL005

  September 1985

  Taylor Woodrow Candecca Resources ELF James Finlay RTZ

  Kelt U.K. Ltd. Candecca Resources Pict Petroleum ELF Oil and Gas

  91 sq kms

  EXL006

  September 1985

  Amoco ELF

  Amoco UK Ltd. ELF UK Ltd.

  192 sq kms

  EXL036

  September 1985

  Shell Garth Resources

  155 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  EXL098

  September 1986

  Clyde Petroleum Ind Scot Energy Bow Valley

  Clyde Exploration Industrial Scotland Energy Bow Valley Petroleum

  116 sq kms

  EXL099

  September 1986

  Taylor Woodrow Candecca Resources RTZ ELF James Finlay

  40 sq kms

  Licence surrendered

  EXL105

  May 1987

  Enterprise Oil BGas BP Pet Dev Peko Pet Whitehall Pet

  Tullow Exploration BGas BP Exploration Amerada Hess DNO Onshore

  170 sq kms

  EXL129

  January 1988

  Marinex Pet Aran Energy Holl Sea Search Renown Energy

  Teredo Pet Aran Energy Puffin Oil Monument Resources

  151 sq kms

  EXL130

  January 1988

  Amoco UK

  Amoco UK

  51 sq kms

  EXL180

  October 1989

  Kelt U.K. Ltd. Candecca Resources Marinex Exploration Tullow Exploration

  Kelt U.K. Ltd. Candecca Resources Marinex Exploration Tullow Exploration

  85 sq kms

  Appraisal Licence (AL)

  AL003

  July 1989

  Kelt U.K. Ltd. Candecca Resources Teredo Pet Tullow Exploration James Finlay

  Kelt U.K. Ltd. Candecca Resources Marinex Exploration Tullow Exploration

  40 sq kms

  Note: Under "Applicant Group" and "Current Licensees", all companies involved in the licence are listed. In each case the operator of the licence is the first listed.

  Electricity
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy, pursuant to his answer of 15 July,Official Report, column 2, what total declared net capacity of electricity generation he anticipates being installed by the year 2000.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The need for additional capacity by 2000 is uncertain and will depend upon a number of factors including the future demand for electricity and commercial judgments on the economic life of existing plant. A range of scenarios for net capacity changes is provided in Energy Paper No. 58 (table 4.9) published in January 1990 a copy of which is available in the Library of the House. The scenarios cover the period 1990–2005.

  Hot Water Boilers
  Mr. Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he first consulted the National Gas Consumers Council concerning the proposed European Community directive concerning the efficiency requirements for new hot water boilers fired with liquid or gaseous fuels.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  Since the European Commission published its proposal for a directive on hot water boilers, in November 1990, my energy efficiency office has been holding staged consultations with interested bodies in the United Kingdom. The initial stages of consultations were technically based and involved the gas industry and manufacturing organisations. Formal consultations with consumers associations, including the National Gas Consumers Council, have been under way since June 1991.

  Nuclear Levy
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what proportion of the nuclear levy is going to(a) the nuclear and (b) the renewable non-fossil fuel generating stations in (i) the current financial year and (ii) the next financial year.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  Precise figures for the distribution of the fossil fuel levy between nuclear and renewables for the current financial year are not available. However, the capacity contracted within the non-fossil fuel obligation for nuclear for the current financial year is now some 8GW, compared with some 27MW for renewables. The distribution of the levy will be broadly related I o these capacities. It is not possible to give the corresponding figures for the next financial year, since the second non-fossil fuel obligation for renewables has not yet been made.

  Acid Rain
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will fund future research at the CERL laboratory, Leatherhead, in the area of acid rain and sulphur dioxide emissions from fossil-fuel generating stations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  Reductions in the emission of sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides are governed by the European large combustion plant directive. Research into the most effective way of meeting these reductions is a matter for the industry. In addition, the Department's Advisory Council on Research and Development maintains a watching brief on developments in electricity research and development and will make recommendations to the Secretary of State as appropriate.

  Sour Gas Power Station
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he plans to hold the public inquiry into the application of Kelt UK to build a sour gas power station at Claypit plantation in the Vale of Pickering, north Yorkshire; and what the terms of reference are to be.

  Mr. Wakeham
  I expect to hold the public inquiry which will assist me in my decision on Kelt UK Limited's application early in 1992. I shall announce full details in due course.

  I will issue, in advance of the inquiry, a statement of the matters which seem to me relevant to my consideration of the application. I will take all relevant factors into account in preparing that statement.

  Power Generating Stations
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what information he has on the locations(a) in the United Kingdom, (b) in Europe and (c) in other parts of the world of land-based power generating stations using hydrogen sulphide gas.

  Mr. Wakeham
  Hydrogen sulphide is not a fuel used in power generation though it may be present as an impurity in certain fuels.

  Permanent Under-Secretary of State
  Mr. Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he intends to appoint a full-time permanent Under-Secretary of State for his Department.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The present Permanent Under-Secretary of State, Mr. J. R. S. Guinness, already holds his appointment on a full-time basis.

  Non-fossil Fuel Obligation
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is the approximate date of the opening of bidding for initial applications for the third tranche of the renewables section of the non-fossil fuel obligation.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My right hon. Friend has not yet made a decision on the timing of the next tranche of the renewables non-fossil fuel obligation.

  Carbon Tax
  Mr. Soames
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what plans he has to institute a carbon tax; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Moyniham
  The Government's policy on the use of economic instruments for environmental protection is set out in the White Paper, "This Common Inheritance". In the long term, action to control emissions will inevitably have to include increases, achieved by taxation or other means, in the relative price of energy. However, the White Paper made clear the Government's intention not to introduce any such measures in the next few years outside the transport sector.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Departmental Expenditure
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the final outturn, and what is the present forecast of schemes presented in tables 11 and 12 of his Department's expenditure plans; what were the figures for 1990–91 and 1991–92; and what was the outturn for 1989–90 in real terms.

  Mr. Lilley
  The information requested is set out in the following tables.

  Table 1

  Collaborative R&D: Outputs

  Outturn 1989–90

  Outturn 1990–91

  Forecast 1991–92

  Link1

  Number of

  Programmes

  11

  6

  3

  Projects

  38

  90

  75

  Participants

  123

  309

  230

  SMEs

  19

  51

  38

  Total Project costs (£m)

  23.1

  (26.6)2

  43.4

  45

  Eureka

  Number of Projects

  10

  18

  35

  Participants

  23

  21

  40

  SMEs

  10

  4

  10

  Total UK eligible

  Project costs (£m)

  9.9

  (11.4)2

  32

  60

  829

  Outturn 1989–90

  Outturn 1990–91

  Forecast 1991–92

  Advanced Technology Programmes

  Number of Programmes

  8

  6

  8

  Projects

  89

  58

  64

  Participants

  164

  222

  254

  SMEs

  69

  64

  72

  Total Project costs

  (£m)

  74

  (85.3)2

  44.3

  50.7

  Research and Technology Organisations

  Number of

  Programmes

  19

  19

  20

  Projects

  146

  42

  100

  Total Project costs (£m)

  36.4

  (42.0)2

  21.2

  37

  Table 2

  Industrial Innovation Expenditure

  £ million

  Programme

  Outturn 1989–90

  Outturn 1990–91

  Forecast 1991–92

  Forecast 1992–93

  Forecast 1993–94

  Collaborative R and D

  Closed schemes

  21

  8

  4

  0·5

  —

  Open schemes

  37

  45.75

  59

  61

  70

  Technology Transfer and Other R and D

  18(11)1

  18.38

  23

  21·5

  20

  Single Company Support

  Closed schemes

  11

  2.2

  1

  —

  —

  SMART and New schemes

  6

  9·17

  13

  17

  20

  93(86)1

  83·5

  100

  100

  110

  1 The figures in brackets relate to £7 million transferred from the Innovation Budget to the Measurement and Technology Support Budget.

  The outturn of £93 million in 1989–90 represents £107·2 million in real terms (uprated to 1991–92 prices using the GDP deflators described in Note 2 to Table 1 above).

  Horizontal Take-off and Landing Vehicle
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the total expenditure and in which financial years, his Department supported expenditure on a space horizontal take-off and landing-vehicle; what recent contracts his Department has had with the European Space Agency and the Soviet Ministry of Aviation Industry on this matter; and whether exports of know-how and equipment relating to such vehicles require export licences, or clearance through Cocom.

  Mr. Leigh
  The DTI provided financial support through the British National Space Centre, towards proof-of-concept studies for the original HOTOL (horizontal take-off and landing) vehicle. The work was undertaken in the financial years 1986–87 and 1987–88. The DTI contribution amounted to £2·4 million out of total costs of some £4 million.

  British Aerospace is currently undertaking a feasibility study with the Soviet Ministry of Aviation Industry for an air-launched interim version of HOTOL. No United Kingdom Government funding is involved. But BNSC was able to help with a presentation on the first results of this study given by British Aerospace to the European Space Agency on 21 June. The question of an export licence and Cocom review could be addressed only once a specific proposal was available.
  830

  Outturn 1989–90

  Outturn 1990–91

  Forecast 1991–92

  General Industrial

  Collaborative

  Projects

  Number of Projects

  28

  15

  20

  Participants

  207

  38

  50

  SMEs

  40

  15

  25

  Total Project costs (£m)

  26

  (30.0)2

  9.3

  15

  Notes:

  The forecasts in this Table are based on an interim survey and are therefore provisional. A full survey will be undertaken in advance of the next Trade and Industry Expenditure Plans report.

  1 Includes some LINK projects which have received funding from both the Science and Engineering Research Council and DTI.

  2 The figures in brackets represent outturn in 1989–90 uprated to 1991–92 prices using the GDP deflators of 7.75 per cent for 1990–91 and 7 per cent for 1991–92, as set out in Table 2.1 of the Financial Statement and Budget Report 1991–92 (House of Commons No. 300).

  Executive Agencies
  Mr. McAllion
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the first degree obtained by the chief executives of Companies House, the Insolvency Service, the Laboratory of the Government Chemist, the National Engineering Laboratory, the National Physical Laboratory, the National Weights and Measures Laboratory, the Patent Office, the Radiocommunications Agency and the Warren Spring Laboratory; and from which university or polytechnic it was awarded.

  Mr. Lilley
  This question seeks personal information about individuals; I have therefore drawn it to the attention of chief executives.

  Mr. McAllion
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when the last annual reports for Companies House, the Insolvency Service, the Laboratory of the Government Chemist, the National Engineering Laboratory, the National Physical Laboratory, the National Weights and Measures Laboratory, the Patent Office, the Radiocommunications Agency and the Warren Spring Laboratory were published; and when the next ones are due.

  Mr. Lilley
  The following is the information.
  831

  Agency

  Date last annual report publicly available

  Expected dale of publication of next annual report

  Companies House

  August 1990

  July 1991

  Insolvency Service

  October 1990

  August 1991

  Laboratory of the Government Chemist

  October 1990

  Autumn 1991

  National Engineering Laboratory

  1989

  August 1991

  National Physical Laboratory

  February 1990

  July 1991

  National Weights and Measures Laboratory

  July 1991

  Summer 1992

  Patent Office

  5 June 1991

  Summer 1992

  Radiocommunications

  July 1990

  August 1991

  Warren Spring Laboratory

  August 1990

  September 1991

  Agency

  Grade

  Numbers employed from private sector since establishment as an Agency

  1991–92 Maximum salary payable including performance element

  Companies House

  7

  1

  1G7

  Laboratory of the Government Chemist

  7

  1

  2G7

  National Engineering Laboratory

  5

  3*

  3G5

  National Physical Laboratory

  7

  1

  2G7

  Patent Office

  6

  1

  4G6

  Warren Spring Laboratory

  7

  1

  5G7

  * One has subsequently resigned.

  1 G7 pay range outside London: £21,905-£31,150 subject to review w.e.f. 1 August 1991. Progress beyond £26,121 subject to performance.

  2 G7 pay range in outer London: £23,616-£33,276, subject to review w.e.f. 1 August 1991. Progress beyond £28,024 subject to performance.

  3 G5 pay range outside London: £32,551-£43,307, subject to review w.e.f. 1 August 1991. Progress beyond £36,997 subject to performance.

  4G6 pay range outside London: £24,997-£38,610 subject to review w.e.f. 1 August 1991. Progress beyond £29,809 subject to performance.

  5G7 pay range in outer London without London Weighting: £22,891-£32,551, subject to review w.e.f. 1 August 1991. Progress beyond £27,299 subject to performance.

  Mr. McAllion
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the maximum salary payable to the chief executives and the length of time of the chief executives' contracts of Companies House, the Insolvency Service, the Laboratory of the Government Chemist, the

  Agency

  Term of Chief Executive's current Appointment

  1991–92 maximum salary payable

  Companies House

  5 years

  £41,6811 plus maximum performance bonus of up to 12·5 per cent.

  Insolvency Service

  3 years

  2G3 range

  Laboratory of the Government Chemist

  5 years

  2G3 range

  National Engineering Laboratory

  5 years

  £64,500 plus maximum performance bonus of up to 15 per cent.

  National Physical Laboratory

  2 years 9 months

  2G5 range

  National Weights and Measures Laboratory

  3 years

  4G5 range

  Patent Office

  4 years

  2G3 range

  Radiocommunications Agency

  2 years

  2G3 range

  Warren Spring Laboratory

  2 years 11 months

  3G3 range

  1 Subject to review w.e.f. 1 August 1991.

  2 G3 pay range in London: £50,380—£58,010 rising to £51,300—£59,000 on 1 December 1991.

  3 G3 pay range outside London: £47,090—£54,720 rising to £48,000—£55,000 w.e.f. 1 December 1991. Progress in the G3 pay range is subject to performance.

  4 G5 pay range in outer London: £34,695—£45,721, subject to review w.e.f. 1 August 1991. Progress beyond £39,335 subject to performance.

  Soft Drinks
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he intends to publish the report of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission into the supply of carbonated soft drinks.
  832
  Mr. McAllion
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many appointments from the private sector have been made at grade 7 or above since their establishment as executive agencies to the Warren Spring Laboratory, the Patent Office, the Radiocommunications Agency, the National Weights and Measures Laboratory, the National Physical Laboratory, the National Engineering Laboratory, the Laboratory of the Government Chemist, the Insolvency Service and Companies House; and if he will list the post, grade and maximum salary payable, including performance-related element, in each case.

  Mr. Lilley
  The following is the information.

  National Engineering Laboratory, the National Physical Laboratory, the National Weights and Measures Laboratory, the Patent Office, the Radiocommunications Agency and the Warren Spring Laboratory.

  Mr. Lilley
  The following is the information requested.

  Mr. Redwood
  The MMC's report on carbonated drinks is currently being considered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. The report will be published as quickly as practicable.

  Royal Ordnance
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many transactions with Royal Ordnance, prior to privatisation, were made using BCCI; what were the transactions for; and who were the purchasers.

  Mr. Leigh
  This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

  European Generics Forum
  Mr. Michael Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will list the companies represented by the European Generics Forum other than those companies within the same holding company as Generics UK.

  Mr. Leigh
  I am informed that the European Generics Association has recently been created to represent the common interests of the generic pharmaceutical industry and bulk chemical producers across Europe. Generics (UK) and the Netherlands company BOGIN, which were members of the European Generics Forum, are now members of this association. The other companies and organisations which are involved are Eurogenerics (Belgium), Durascan (Denmark), Stada, Azupharma, TAD, IGG (Germany), FIS/Aschimfarma (Italy), Farmindustria (Portugal), Afaquim (Spain), Centrafarm (Netherlands) and Helvepharm AG (Switzerland).

  Price Marking
  Mr. Cartwright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations he has received from retailers about the implications of the Price Marking Order 1991—S.I., 1991, No. 1382; whether he intends to issue guidance about its implementation; and if his officials will meet representatives of retailers to discuss the order.

  Mr. Leigh
  The Retail Consortium has made representations that the order, which implements EC directives requiring price indications for goods offered for sale to the final consumer, is unnecessary. I consider the order to be necessary since the directives require that price indications be given and that they must be legible. Our existing price marking requirements relate only to certain foods.

  My officials have prepared a four-page guidance note to the order which has been distributed to trade associations, trading standards departments, and others. I am asking them to arrange to meet representatives of the consortium to discuss its concerns.

  BAe146 (Component Parts)
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations he has made to the United States Government to remove their embargo on the sale of component parts of the BAe 146 feeder airliner to Iran; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The Government have made a number of representations to the United States Administration in support of British Aerospace's application for the re-export to Iran of the United States content of six BAe146 aircraft. The decision of the United States 834
  authorities to reject the application is disappointing. The Government will continue to press for the decision to be changed.

  Timeshare Promotion Schemes
  Mr. Amess
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his reply to the Adjournment debate of 27 March,Official Report, columns 1092–4, if he will detail the action he has taken to outlaw unfair and misleading timeshare promotion schemes.

  Mr. Leigh
  We intend to make false or misleading descriptions in offers of free gifts (including offers which feature in timeshare award schemes) an offence under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968. The Government will legislate as soon as parliamentary time becomes available.

  I have raised the issue of timeshare with the European Commission and it is considering putting forward a proposal for an EC directive. I would like to see such a directive include a requirement that prospective timeshare buyers should be given a written prospectus, a 14-day cooling-off period and protection of deposit moneys. A cooling-off period would help counterbalance the high pressure sales techniques employed by some timeshare operators.

  Thomson CSF and GEC Airborne Radar
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (1) what account he is taking of state ownership in considering whether to refer the proposed merger of Thomson CSF and GEC Airborne Radar capabilities to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission;

  (2) whether he has any plans to refer the proposed merger of Thomson CSF and GEC Airborne Radar capabilities to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission;

  (3) what factors he is taking into account in considering whether to refer the proposed merger of Thomson CSF and GEC Airborne Radar capabilities to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission.

  Mr. Redwood
  The joint venture between GEC-Marconi and Thomson-CSF is being considered by the Director General of Fair Trading. If his office finds that it qualifies for investigation under the terms of the Fair Trading Act 1973, the Director General will advise the Secretary of State on whether it should be referred to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. The main grounds for referring a merger to the MMC is its effect on competition in the United Kingdom. In addition, the Secretary of State announced on 26 July last year that he would pay particularly close attention to the degree of state control, if any, of acquiring companies when considering whether to refer merger situations to the MMC.

  Barlow Clowes
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his answer of 19 July,Official Report, column 319, what evidence was received by the Le Quesne inquiry into the Barlow Clowes affair relating to the relationship between Barlow Clowes and the Bank of Credit and Commerce International and in respect of money laundering; if he will (a) publish it and (b) make it available to the inquiry into the Bank of Credit and Commerce International.
  835
  Mr. Redwood
  I will write to the right hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Development Area Status
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what are the criteria for development area status; and whether north Devon meets these criteria.

  Mr. Leigh
  This was set out in the 1983 White Paper "Regional Industrial Development" (Cmnd 9111) as follows:"In considering the designation of an Assisted Area, the Government have regard to criteria first laid down in the Industrial Development Act 1966 (currently in section 1(3) of the Industrial Development Act 1982), namely:
  "all the circumstances actual and expected, including the state of employment and unemployment, population changes, migration and the objectives of regional policies".

  The current assisted areas map restricts development area status to 15 per cent. of the working population of Great Britain, and intermediate area status to a further 20 per cent.

  On present unemployment rates in the travel-to-work areas which make up the hon. Member's north Devon constituency, there is unlikely to be justification for development area status.

  Mergers and Takeovers
  Mr. Shore
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will introduce legislation to restore jurisdiction from the European Commission to the Department of Trade and Industry in dealing with proposed mergers or takeovers of very large undertakings where considerations of national or public interest are involved; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  The EC merger regulation allows member states to take action to protect legitimate or other public interests where these are not taken into consideration by the regulation. Public security, plurality of the media and prudential rules are recognised as such legitimate interests. Action to protect other public interests can be taken only with the European Commission's prior consent where the merger regulation allows. The introduction of legislation in the House of Commons to repatriate these matters would be invalid under the treaty and the regulation.

  Equipment (Overseas Sales)
  Mr. Mullin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations he has received from the United States Government over the past two years on the overseas sale of equipment by British companies; and if he will list the company and the equipment concerned in each case.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  It has been the practice of successive Governments not to comment on individual licensing matters.

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session;836
  and if he will publish a table of how many answers (a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Lilley
  A total of 1,234 written questions have been answered so far this Session, and the figure for the comparable period in the last Session was 1,983. The other information mentioned by the hon. Member is not held centrally, and an analysis of it could therefore be prepared only at disproportionate cost.

  Package Travel (Green Paper)
  Sir Robert McCrindle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he now expects to publish his Green Paper on package travel.

  Mr. Leigh
  The Department's consultation document on the implementation of EC directive 90/314/EEC, on package travel, package holidays and package tours, was published yesterday.

  Fibreoptic Transmission Technology Ltd.
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will instruct his officials in Leeds to ascertain what assistance may he made available to Fibreoptic Transmission Technology Ltd. of Bradford to remain trading; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Leigh
  DTI officials have been in contact with the company on a number of occasions over the last two years. This has led to the company receiving two enterprise initiative consultancies, export assistance, and an offer of grant under the LINK scheme.

  It is not DTI's role to provide financial assistance to enable individual companies to continue trading.

  Telecom Networks
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will list the organisations which have applied to operate the Telecom networks following the end of the BT and Mercury duopoly.

  Mr. Redwood
  A list of applications for Telecommunications Act licences currently under consideration is kept at the Office of Telecommunications and updated weekly. The list is open to public inspection. It currently contains the following details:
  837

  Telecommunications Act 1984 Register of Licence applications under consideration by the Secretary of State (as at 19 July 1991)

  Applicant

  Services proposed

  Cognito Group Ltd.

  Provision of radio packet data links to fixed terminals via its existing network.

  lonica L3 Ltd.

  Provision of a national telephone service offering PSTN facilities based on fixed wireless communication.

  Meteor Communications (Europe) Ltd.

  Provision of telemetry and telecontrol systems to fixed and mobile apparatus throughout the United Kingdom, and Western Europe, by means of a meteor burst radio network. No connection to other telecommunication system is sought.

  National Transcommunications Ltd.

  Provision of broadband network services in the United Kingdom for the transmission of vision, sound and data.

  Paknet Ltd.

  Provision of fixed and mobile data services using the company's existing fixed network.

  RAM Mobile Data Ltd.

  Provision of packet switched data services to fixed terminals via its existing radio network.

  Satellite Information Services

  Provision of two-way satellite circuits connected to the public switched telephone network for engineering and programme control purposes in connection with outside broadcasting activities.

  Sound Broadcast Services

  Provision of point-to-point radio and wire systems for radio broadcasters to allow transmission of programme material, communications and data to and from studios and transmitter sites on a permanent basis.

  Racal Vodafone Ltd.

  Provision of fixed links in its own network or to others. Provision of telecommunications services of every type on its network. Direct connections to overseas mobile and fixed networks.

  In addition, over 20 other companies have expressed a strong interest in running new networks but they have yet to make a formal application.

  Telephones
  Mr. Henderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what action he proposes to take to encourage the spread of hearing aid-compatible telephones.

  Mr. Redwood
  The licences issued to the public telecommunications operators British Telecommunications, Mercury Communications Ltd. and Kingston Communications (Hull) plc under the Telecommunications Act 1984 require them to ensure that telephones for the hearing impaired are available to meet all reasonable demands. The licensees are also required to install facilities for the hearing impaired in all their public call boxes.

  Spirits (Measures)
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will be introducing any further legislation controlling the quantities of spirits or liqueurs sold for consumption on licensed premises; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Leigh
  Legislation brought in last summer provided that 25 ml should be the metric measure to replace the existing imperial quantities of 1/6, 1/5, and 1/4 gill (23.7 ml, 28.4 ml, 35.5 ml). I am conscious, however, that parts of Scotland have traditionally used the larger imperial measures. Following consultation with interested parties, I therefore propose to introduce legislation to permit a second metric quantity of 35 ml for dispensing gin, rum, vodka and whisky. I do not propose, however, to extend prescribed quantities to other spirits and liqueurs.

  Radio Spectrum Review
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when the stage two radio spectrum review was completed; and if he will publish the Committee's report.

  Mr. Lilley
  I have received the report and it will be published shortly.

  Carbonised Soft Drinks
  Mr. Nicholls
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he can announce the date of publication of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission report into carbonised soft drinks; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  The MMC's report on carbonated drinks is currently being considered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. The report will be published as quickly as practicable.

  Auditors
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will now announce decisions on the recognition of supervisory bodies, and of professional qualifications for auditors under part II of the Companies Act 1989.

  Mr. Redwood
  Yes. I have decided to recognise four supervisory bodies for company auditors under section 30 of the Companies Act 1989—the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW); the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland (ICAS); the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland (ICAO; and the Chartered Association of Certified Accountants (ACCA). I have also decided to recognise the accountancy qualifications offered by these four bodies as recognised professional qualifications for company auditors under section 32 of the Act. The rules and guidance of the four bodies, on the basis of which I have taken these decisions, include some amendments to those in the original applications. I shall be placing copies of the revised rules and guidance, excluding certain material supplied in confidence, in the Library of the House.

  I am also actively considering an application from the Association of Authorised Public Accountants (AAPA) for recognition as a supervisory body, and expect to reach

  839
  a decision soon. Consideration of the application is not yet complete, but I am not aware at this stage of any problems in connection with it.

  I have also received very recently an application from the Association of International Accountants (AIA) for recognition of its accountancy qualification. This application is under consideration.

  In taking these decisions, I have had regard to the reports of the Director General of Fair Trading. The Director General found that the rules and guidance of the applicants relating to their professional qualifications were not likely to have significant anti-competitive effects. He reached the same conclusion on the applications to be recognised as a supervisory body, apart from the rules on ownership and control of audit firms. In the case of ACCA, he recognised that the rules were in line with the minimum requirements of the Act. The Director General did however find that the rules of the three institutes on the ownership and control of audit firms, which are more restrictive than the Act requires, were likely significantly to restrict, prevent or distort competition. Although he has welcomed some of the changes which the institutes have now made to their rules, these changes have not led him to alter this finding. I shall be placing a copy of his latest report in the Library.

  Having considered the arguments carefully, I was not convinced that the anti-competitive effects identified by the Director General were likely to be significant; and I therefore decided to recognise the institutes as supervisory bodies on the basis of the revised ownership and control rules put forward by them; but I have indicated to the Director General that I would welcome a decision by him to review the operation of the new ownership and control rules in practice after two years.

  The recognition of supervisory bodies for company auditors, and of professional audit qualifications, will clear the way for the commencement of the new regulatory arrangements for company auditors established by part II of the Companies Act 1989. I intend to bring the main operative provisions of part II into force from 1 October 1991. From that date, only firms and individuals who are members of a recognised supervisory body, and eligible for appointment as company auditors under the rules of that body, may accept new or renewed appointments as company auditors. Persons qualified as company auditors under existing legislation will however be able to complete after 1 October audit engagements accepted before then.

  The commencement of part II will implement the UK's obligations under the eighth EC company law directive. It is designed to establish a new and effective regulatory regime for company auditors which will safeguard the traditional professional qualities of independence and integrity; introduce new monitoring arragements which will help the profession maintain high standards; and enable the profession to respond decisively to complaints or other evidence that one of its members may be falling short of those standards.

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. Beith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what information led to the action of his Department in November 1990 in writing to non-departmental organisations funded by grants to ask them 840
  to supply as a matter of urgency details of all their banking arrangements, including any use of the overnight money market or any similar facility; how many such organisations were found to have deposits with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International; and whether those with such deposits were contacted about them by his Department.

  Mr. Redwood
  My Department wrote as part of an annual review of banking arragements required by the Treasury. The exercise extends to the non-departmental bodies for which my Department is responsible. Replies received have not shown any dealings with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International.

  Common Purpose Programme
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what consideration he has given to the value of the common purpose programme which his Department funds; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Leigh
  My Department, together with other Departments in the action for cities initiative, has contributed funding to common purpose since its launch in 1989. Since then, common purpose has successfully established programmes in 15 cities: five more are due to become operational by early 1992. Five hundred and fifty people have been or are participating in common purpose programmes. My officials are in the process of commissioning an evaluation of common purpose.

  Securities and Investments Board
  Mr. Colvin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (1) what criteria he adopted in agreeing the increases in the budget for the Securities and Investments Board for 1991–92;

  (2) what consultation there has been between his Department, the Securities and Investments Board, the self-regulatory bodies and the recognised professional bodies on the increase in respective contributions to the Securities and Investments Board budget for 1991–92; and what changes were made as a result of those consultations.

  Mr. Redwood
  The Securities and Investments Board's budget is a matter for the board. I have had discussions with the chairman recently and have a further meeting planned next week. He has assured me that he and his board attach great importance to ensuring that costs are kept under firm control.

  Trade Statistics
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will publish a table showing imports and exports from the EEC and from the rest of the world of(a) manufactures and (b) manufactures less erratics in 1970, 1973, 1979, 1988, 1989, 1990 and the current year to date.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 23 July 1991]: The available information is shown in the following table.
  841

  United Kingdom Trade in Manufactured Goods1

  £ billion

  Imports

  Exports

  EC (11) (incl GDR)

  Rest of World

  EC (11) (incl GDR)

  Rest of World

  19702

  —

  —

  —

  —

  19732 3

  3·6

  5·1

  3·3

  6·8

  1979

  16·1

  13·6

  12·9

  18·0

  less erratics

  15·2

  9·4

  11·5

  13·3

  1988

  45·9

  37·6

  32·4

  33·8

  less erratics

  44·8

  32·7

  29·9

  27·6

  1989

  52·8

  43·3

  38·1

  38·4

  less erratics

  51·6

  37·7

  35·6

  31·1

  1990

  54·1

  44·1

  44·3

  40·2

  less erratics

  52·8

  37·8

  41·4

  32·7

  1991 (Jan-Mar)

  12·3

  10·1

  11·1

  8·6

  less erratics

  12·0

  8·8

  10·4

  7·1

  1991 (Jan-May)4

  20·6

  17·5

  19·7

  15·2

  Source: Overseas Trade Statistics of the United Kingdom.

  1 Manufactured goods have been defined as Sections 5 to 8 of the Standard International Trade Classification (Rev. 3). Erratics include: Pearls, semi-precious stones, silver, aircraft and associated equipment, ships and boats.

  2 Statistics on trade in manufactured goods for 1970, and erratics for 1973, could not be provided without disproportionate cost.

  3 The EC figures for 1973 exclude the German Democratic Republic, which is included in the rest of the world figures.

  4 Erratics data for the current year to date are not yet available.

  Exporters
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what measures he is taking to notify exporters of any changes in the addresses, telephone numbers and facsimile numbers of sections of his Department supplying information and advice to exporters; and where an up-to-date list of such information is currently available.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 23 July 1991]: We attach considerable importance to keeping our business customers informed. Through the overseas trade services network, under which the export work of my Department and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is carried out, a number of booklets and brochures are published which detail the advice and information available to United Kingdom exporters and the appropriate contact points from which this help can be accessed. These publications are updated on a regular basis, and new additions are currently being prepared for issue shortly. Contact information is also made available through the DTI enterprise initiative telephone hot-line.

  At local level our network of regional offices, including DTI offices in the south-west in Bristol, Plymouth and Penzance, produce regular export newsletters which periodically detail the export section contacts within the office.

  Full details of the regional network and other export-related contacts, including specific country inquiry points, are given in "The Guide to Exporting" (Fifth Edition), a copy of which is in the Library.

  Table 1

  National Insurance Contribution Income

  £ million

  Class 1 Employees

  Class 1 Employers

  Class 2

  Class 3

  Class 4

  Total

  1978–80

  3,953

  6,153

  136

  11

  104

  10,357

  1980–81

  5,162

  7,880

  173

  12

  133

  13,360

  1981–82

  7,656

  10,661

  221

  14

  150

  18,702

  1982–83

  7,923

  9,293

  283

  19

  184

  17,702

  1983–84

  8,909

  10,094

  337

  28

  205

  19,573

  1984–85

  9,570

  10,790

  380

  27

  242

  21,009

  1985–86

  10,392

  12,020

  373

  40

  288

  23,113

  1986–87

  11,103

  13,179

  366

  31

  331

  25,010

  1987–88

  12,419

  14,724

  390

  30

  380

  27,943

  Redundancy Payments
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether redundancy payments are counted as state aid by the EC when considering whether sales of companies meet their fair competition criteria.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 24 July 1991]: Government assistance towards redundancy payments could be regarded as state aid by the European Commission. This would depend on the individual circumstances of each case.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  National Insurance
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what amount and proportion of national insurance contributions from(a) employees, (b) employers, (c) voluntary, (d) self-employed and (e) in total, were spent on (i) national insurance contributory benefits, (ii) non-contributory benefits and (iii) the national health service in each year since 1979–80.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information is not available in the form requested. The available information is given in the tables. It is not possible to apportion expenditure between the classes of national insurance contributions in the way suggested by the question. However, the income to the national insurance fund is shown in table 1 and the expenditure from the fund is shown in table 2.
  843

  Class 1 Employees

  Class 1 Employers

  Class 2

  Class 3

  Class 4

  Total

  1988–89

  13,850

  17,118

  437

  32

  474

  31,911

  1989–90

  14,450

  19,050

  478

  36

  571

  34,585

  1. Figures for 1987–88 to 1989–90 are provisional.

  2. Figures for 1990–91 are not yet available.

  3. Class 3 contributions are voluntary; Class 2 and Class 4 are self-employed.

  4. There was also a Treasury Supplement to the National Insurance Fund, which was progressively reduced from a rate of 18 per cent in 1979–80 until its abolition in April 1989.

  Table 2

  Expenditure from the National Insurance Fund

  £ million

  Benefits

  NHS

  1979–80

  12,206

  882

  1980–81

  14,843

  1,025

  1981–82

  17,213

  1,339

  1982–83

  18,593

  1,629

  1983–84

  19,709

  1,705

  1984–85

  21,285

  1,814

  1985–86

  22,901

  2,018

  1986–87

  24,748

  2,213

  1987–88

  25,826

  2,702

  1988–89

  26,545

  3,477

  1989–90

  28,235

  4,071

  1990–91

  30,496

  4,300

  1. Contributory benefits arc defined as those paid from the National Insurance Fund. However, Industrial Injuries Benefits, Guardians Allowance and Childs Special Allowance, although paid from the Fund, do not have a contribution condition.

  2. Benefits include Statutory Sick Pay from 1983–84 and Statutory Maternity Pay from 1987–88. From 1990–91 expenditure on Statutory Sick Pay and Statutory Maternity Pay is reimbursed from general taxation.

  3. Administration costs arc not included, as the breakdown between contributory and non-contributory benefits is not available for all years.

  4. Benefits figure for 1990–91 is estimated outturn.

  5. NHS figure for 1990–91 is provisional.

  6. Any excess of expenditure over income in any year is met by the accumulated balance of past surpluses.

  Elderly Men
  Mr. Andrew Bowden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will estimate the numbers of men aged 60 to 64 years who are not economically active.

  Miss Widdecombe
  It is estimated that, in May 1991, around 620,000 men aged between 60 and 64 years were economically inactive.

  Maintenance Payments
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what steps his Department takes to notify an estranged spouse in receipt of maintenance payments paid by his Department that an agreed scheme of payments has ceased to be paid; and if he will review the current situation.

  Mr. Jack
  Under the existing arrangements the Benefits Agency does not, as a matter of course, notify a customer when an agreement to pay maintenance which is collected by the Department breaks down, because the amount of income support in payment remains unaffected. As soon as it becomes apparent that the agreement is no longer working, steps are taken to discover the reason and to re-establish payments. We aim therefore to solve the problem without unnecessarily troubling the customer.844
  But where the problem is more serious and requires enforcement or other action, the customer will normally be involved.

  As part of the new system of child maintenance being introduced by the Child Support Bill, parents with care will be able to benefit from the dedicated collection and enforcement services of the new Child Support Agency. We are still considering the detailed working procedures of the agency.

  Asylum Seekers
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make a statement on provision of income support and other social security benefits to people granted exceptional leave to remain; and if he has any plans to revise the present arrangements.

  Miss Widdecombe
  There is full entitlement to social security benefits for people who are granted exceptional leave to remain, provided they satisfy the appropriate conditions of entitlement. We have no plans to amend the existing provisions.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will (1) give the reason for not granting the full rate of income support to asylum seekers; and in what ways the financial needs of claimants who are asylum seekers are considered to differ from the financial needs of other claimants;

  (2) make a statement on the provision of income support and other social security benefits to asylum seekers; and if. he has any plans to revise the present arrangements.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Asylum seekers are among the groups of people who are not entitled to income support under the normal rules but whose circumstances make it appropriate for them to receive some benefit. They can receive social security benefits while their applications for asylum are being processed by the immigration authorities. For them, as for other comparable groups, 90 per cent. of the personal allowance is paid, together with full amounts for children and any appropriate premiums. If refugee status or exceptional leave to remain in the United Kingdom is granted, personal allowance becomes payable at the full rate. We have no plans to amend the existing provisions.

  Benefits, Tower Hamlets
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) how many people claimed(a) housing benefit and (b) community charge benefit in Tower Hamlets for the last two years;

  (2) if he will list the numbers claiming housing benefit and the total benefit paid for each year since 1979 in Tower Hamlets.
  845
  Miss Widdecombe
  The table sets out the available information. Before 1983 assistance with housing costs was provided through the supplementary benefit scheme and through the rent rebate, rent allowance and rate rebate schemes, run by the Department of the Environment. Because of the split in responsibilities between Tower Hamlets and the Greater London council, the information for 1983–84 and 1984–85 is not available in the form requested. The number of individuals receiving community charge benefit in Tower Hamlets in 1990–91 was 40,300, rounded to the nearest 100.

  Year

  Housing Benefit Caseload

  Benefit paid £ million

  1985–86

  30,700

  29·00

  1986–87

  30,100

  33·90

  1987–88

  30,400

  49·00

  1988–89

  28,400

  53·20

  1989–90

  26,900

  52·10

  1990–91

  26,500

  57·4

  (1) For 1985–86 to 1987–88, the figures are based on rate rebate caseload. Most people who get a rate rebate also receive a rent rebate or rent allowance, however this excludes a small number who receive rent rebate or rent allowance but not rate rebate.

  (2) Figures are rounded to the nearest hundred.

  (3) Figures for 1988–89 and 1989–90 are derived from rent rebate, rent allowance and rate rebate caseload.

  (4) Rounded to the nearest £100 thousand.

  (5) Rent rebate and rent allowance only.

  (6) Based on mid year subsidy claim estimate.

  Invalidity Benefit
  Mr. Ralph Howell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Norfolk, North, 15 April,Official Report, column 98, how many people are at present receiving invalidity benefit; what were the comparable figures in 1980, 1985 and 1990; and how he accounts for the change.

  Mr. Scott
  I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour) on 30 January 1991 at columns 548–49.

  The estimated average number of people receiving invalidity benefit at present is 1,350,0001. Comparable figures for earlier years are in the table:

  Number

  1980–81

  1620,000

  1985–86

  1865,000

  1990–91

  11,270,000

  1 The Government's Expenditure White Paper.

  Unlike the figures quoted in my answer of 15 April, the above figures relate only to invalidity benefit.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many women over the age of 60 years receive invalidity benefit calculated according to their retirement pension contributions.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information is not available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  However, the total number of women aged 60 and over receiving invalidity benefit at 31 March 1990, the latest date for which information is available, was 29,100. This figure includes women with title under the special arrangements for some widows, those where the incapacity
  846
  is due to the effects of an industrial accident or disease, and those where title is based upon their own retirement pension entitlement.

  Capital Values Rule
  Mrs. Mahon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what guidance is given to his Department's offices and income support sections on treatment of the capital values of homes for those who are unavoidably absent in order to tend relatives receiving invalid care allowance and attendance allowance; and if he will place a copy of that guidance on the record.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The capital value of a person's home is completely disregarded under income support, even though he or she may be temporarily living elsewhere. Guidance on this matter is contained in the adjudication officer's guide paragraphs 27717, 27720.4, 30202.1 and 30211. A copy of the AOG is in the Library.

  Income Support
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the number of Scottish children(a) in total and (b) as a percentage dependent on supplementary benefit and income support for each year from 1979 to the latest year for which figures are available.

  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what payments were made to residents of supportive housing accommodation project homes in Staffordshire over and above the normal payments to residents in ordinary hostels for the last two financial years.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what were the numbers of(a) claimants, (b) dependants and (c) total numbers dependent on income support in Scotland for each year since 1979.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The administration of income support is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Members and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list the number of people at each social security office who are(a) having deductions made from their income support to cover poll tax arrears and (b) were having such deductions three months, six months, nine months and 12 months ago.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The administration of income support is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Child Support Agency
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what representations he has received concerning the level, duration and position in the hierarchy of deductions of the benefit sanction for mothers who refuse to co-operate with the Child Support Agency.

  Mr. Jack
  The level and duration of the reduction in the personal benefit of the parent with care who declines
  847
  without a good reason to comply with clause 6 of the Child Support Bill were announced in Committee. They have been discussed in subsequent stages in both Houses. Since then I have received representations from two organisations on this aspect. It is important to remember that the question of reducing benefit arises only where there are no reasonable grounds to believe that action on maintenance would cause harm or undue distress to the parent or her children. I should point out that as a reduction not a deduction the question of fitting into the hierarchy of deductions does not arise. The decision to make a reduction will be made only after the parent has had two separate opportunities to consider her position and explain her reasons and two different people have considered the case. The benefit reduction is therefore intended very much as a measure of last resort.

  Statutory Sick Pay
  Mr. Edwards
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish figures showing the number of claims for statutory sick pay made(a) since 5 April 1991 and (b) for the comparable period in 1990 giving information on which claims were payable at the higher rate and which at the lower rate in (1) Wales, (2) Scotland and (3) England; and if he will show a breakdown of the figures for male and female employees and for manual and non-manual workers.

  Mr. Scott
  Information is not available in the form requested. The table shows the estimated numbers of statutory sick pay recipients at any one time during the 1990–91 and 1991–92 financial years:—

  Financial Year

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Estimated numbers

  360,000

  350,000

  Source: Departmental Report (Cm 1514—February 1991.

  Mr. Edwards
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what representations he has received from trade unions, employers or employers' organisations in Wales about the likely effects of requiring employers to meet 20 per cent. of the costs of the statutory sick pay scheme.

  Mr. Scott
  A few representations on the reimbursement provisions of the Statutory Sick Pay Act 1991 were received from individual employers in Wales, from the Wales area office of the National Federation of the Self Employed and Small Businesses and the Welsh Council of the Confederation of British Industry.

  Fraud and Special Investigations
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish a table showing for each administrative region within Wales what the target savings are for the year to date, and the year to date achieved savings, of the fraud and special investigator sections within Department of Social Security offices; whether the statistics in each area are compiled on a comparable basis; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  The investigation of fraud is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Carers
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what plans he has to review benefits for carers in the light of the findings of his Department's research report "Social Security and Community Care: The Case of the Invalid Care Allowance"; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Scott
  Since the completion of the study we have introduced two improvements for carers. The ICA earnings limit has been increased twice—to £20 in April 1990 and to £30 in April this year. In October 1990 the carer premium in the income-related benefits was introduced and in October this year entitlement to the premium will be extended for up to eight weeks after caring ceases. We will continue to keep the needs of carers under review.

  Social Fund
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many social fund decisions in England went to review in each of the first five months of 1991.

  Mr. Scott
  The information requested is in the table.

  Number of applications for review by social fund officers1

  January 1991

  6,961

  February 1991

  7,656

  March 1991

  8,189

  April 1991

  8,730

  May 1991

  9,399

  1 All applications for review are made in the first instance to SFOs.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) why the standard letter, DL/SF14, sent to applicants whose application for review of a social fund officer's decision has been rejected, no longer informs them that they can ask for a social fund inspector to decide whether the decision to reject the application was correct;

  (2) why his guidance to social fund officers, in paragraph 4156 of the social fund manual, was amended to exclude the reference to payment of a crisis loan by means of a voucher.

  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) how many social fund decisions in Newham went to review in each of the first five months of 1991;

  (2) how many applications for social fund loans were refused in Newham in 1990 on the grounds of inability to repay the loans;

  (3) how many applications there were in Newham for review by the social fund inspector in each of the first five months of 1991;

  (4) what is the current average clearance time for crisis loan applications in Newham.

  (5) how many applications in Newham reviewed by the social fund inspector resulted in changes in the first five months of 1991;

  (6) how many social fund decisions were changed on review in Newham in each of the first five months of 1991.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the
  849
  Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Members and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many applications there were in England for review by the social fund inspector in each of the first five months of 1991; and how many of these applications resulted in changed decisions.

  Mr. Scott
  The information requested is shown in the table.

  applications for SFI review

  revised decisions by SFI

  January 1991

  701

  153

  February 1991

  617

  142

  March 1991

  661

  151

  April 1991

  701

  139

  May 1991

  761

  188

  Also, 2,495 cases in Great Britain were referred back for redetermination by a Social Fund Officer between January and May 1991. However information about the proportion of those cases which resulted in a revised decision will not become available until the end of 1991–92.

  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many social fund decisions were changed on review in England in each of the first five months of 1991.

  Mr. Scott
  The information requested is in the table.

  Number of decisions changed on review

  January 1991

  3,700

  February 1991

  3,654

  March 1991

  4,417

  April 1991

  4,076

  May 1991

  4,458

  The number of decisions changed on review covers those revised both by social fund officers and by social fund inspectors.

  Benefit Applications (Newham)
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many benefit applications in Newham offices were received from individuals claiming refugee status in each of the last 12-month periods.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Information on the number of benefit applications received in Newham offices from persons from abroad is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what proportion of applications for crisis loans are paid on the day of application in Newham.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library and Public Information Office.

  Benefit Agency Logo
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, further to his answer of 11 July,Official Report, column 463, what was the cost of the survey into customer opinion of the new Benefits Agency logo; and what was the result of this survey.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the cost was £6,200, including VAT.

  Benefits (Abolition and Taxation)
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what savings he estimates have accrued to the Exchequer each year since each of the following measures was introduced, both in current prices and at 1991 prices:(a) the abolition of earnings-related supplement to unemployment benefit, (b) the taxation of unemployment benefit, (c) the abolition of the child additions to unemployment benefit, (d) the abolition of the lower rate unemployment benefits, (e) the abatement of unemployment benefit for occupational pensions, (f) the extension from six to 26 weeks in the disqualification period, (g) the introduction of actively seeking work rules and restart interviews, (h) the reduced entitlement for students,(i) the full extent normal rule, and (j) the higher contributions conditions introduced in the Social Security Act 1988.

  Mr. Jack
  The available information is set out in the table. Savings for each year since implementation cannot be calculated given the effects of other benefit changes and economic factors. Details of savings from the taxation of benefits, restart interviews and the full extent normal rule are not available.

  Measure

  Estimated savings (£ million) in year of implementation

  Estimated savings in year of implementation at 1991 prices

  Abolition of earnings related supplement

  390

  695

  Abolition of child dependency additions

  3

  5

  Abolition of half/three quarter rates of UB1

  20

  26

  Abatement of UB on account of an occupational pension

  25

  45

  Extension from six to 13 weeks of the disqualification period

  21

  29

  Extension from 13 to 26 weeks of the disqualification period

  37

  45

  Actively seeking work2

  100

  115

  Benefits for students restricted to summer vacation

  9

  12

  Withdrawal of benefits for students

  79

  391

  New contribution conditions

  10

  12

  1 Unemployment benefit.

  2 Estimated savings also take into account other changes to UB legislation made in the 1989 Social Security Act.

  3 Revised estimated savings for first full financial year following implementation.

  Community Care Grants
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what proportion of community care grants were awarded in England under direction 4(a)(iii) alone in the first five months of 1991.

  Mr. Scott
  The information requested is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what proportion of community care grants were awarded in Newham under direction 4(a)(iii) alone in the first five months of 1991.

  Mr. Scott
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, pursuant to his answer of 22 July to the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East, if he will break down the figure of 72 parliamentary questions referred to agency chief executives, by agency.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information is as follows:—

  Number

  Benefits Agency

  60

  Information Technology Services Agency

  5

  Contributions Agency

  4

  Resettlement Agency

  3

  Client Interviews (Interpretation)
  Mr. Atkinson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what arrangements exist for interpretation at interviews with clients who do not speak English; how much interpreters are paid; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The existing arrangements for customers who do not speak English are a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, who has taken a number of initiatives in respect of this matter. He will write to my hon. Friend and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Disablement Benefits
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will ensure claims for invalid care allowance and severe disablement allowance are being adjudicated upon, and paid, promptly.

  Mr. Scott
  Action on certain invalid care allowance and severe disablement allowance claims has been delayed pending the outcome of appeals. Following legal advice, arrangements are being made to ensure that all outstanding claims are now put to the adjudicating authorities and adjudicated. Where appropriate, payment will then be made as soon as is practicable.

  Homelessness
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many homeless families and how many individuals within the families, were placed in bed-and-breakfast accommodation in 1990–91; what was the average number, for families and individuals, during the year; and what was the cost of their benefits.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Homelessness issues are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

  I understand that information on the number of families or individuals placed in bed-and-breakfast accommodation during the year is not available; the average number of homeless households in bed-and-breakfast accommodation in 1990–91 is estimated at 11,900 in England; and information on the average number of individuals in each family is not available. The equivalent figures for Scotland and Wales are the responsibility of my right hon. Friends, the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales, respectively.

  Information on the benefit paid is not available.

  Source: Local authority quarterly returns to the Department of the Environment on their actions under the Homelessness legislation.

  Mentally Handicapped Adults
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish the evidence he has submitted to the Social Security Advisory Committee on parents who have hitherto provided a mentally handicapped adult offspring with a home seeking to establish a joint tenancy with their offspring, or issuing them with a licence on a commercial basis; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The Department provided information to the Social Security Advisory Committee which it issued to six disability organisations on 12 June and, as part of the formal consultation exercise, again on 5 July. I have placed copies of these notes in the Library.

  Community Charge Rebate
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) what protection exists to ensure claimants' net income was not reduced when their community charge rebate was reduced as a result of this year's uprating to invalidity benefit; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) how many people in receipt of invalidity benefit and community charge rebate had a cut in their rebate in 1991–92 as a result of their increase in invalidity benefit; how many of them were worse off in net terms as a result; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Increases in invalidity benefit are taken into account when assessing entitlement to community charge benefit, but the personal allowances and premiums appropriate to community charge benefit were also uprated in April. Information is not available about the number of people in receipt of invalidity benefit whose community charge benefit has been reduced. However, we are not aware that there are any claimants in these circumstances who have not seen an overall increase in their net income from invalidity benefit after paying their rebated charge.

  Family Expenditure
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will provide a breakdown of expenditure on families with children compared with the position before the 1988 reform.

  Mr. Jack
  [holding answer 15 July 1991]: I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Family Incomes
  Sir Ian Gilmour
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, further to his reply to the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett)Official Report, 13 May, columns 31–34, if he will repeat the figures including (a) columns for the two-parent families showing their net incomes after rent and community charge when on income support, (b) earnings levels for all three families of £180, £190 and £200 a week, (c) child care costs for the lone mother of £70 a week for the four-year-old child, and £20 a week for the six-year-old child and (d) comparable figures for all three families assuming they are owner-occupiers with mortgages of £40,000.

  Mr. Jack
  [holding answer 22 July 1991]: Income-related benefits such as family credit and housing benefit provide valuable help for many working families and make it worth while taking up and retaining employment. The social security reforms, and subsequent changes in tax and national insurance have virtually eliminated the worst effects of the poverty trap, so that it is now almost impossible for someone to be worse off as a result of an increase in gross pay.

  Lone parent with 2 children aged 4 and 6 with mortgage and child care costs

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Net mortgage interest

  CC

  Child care costs

  Net earnings

  FC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -116·16

  57·70

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -37·36

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -107·06

  54·14

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  31·82

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -97·96

  47·77

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -29·09

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  75·00

  9·40

  9000

  -88·86

  41·40

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -26·36

  100·00

  ·89

  5·36

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -80·65

  35·65

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -23·90

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -74·05

  31·03

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  21·92

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -67·45

  26·41

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -19·94

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -60·85

  21·79

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -17·96

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -54·25

  17·17

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -15·98

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -47·65

  12·55

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -14·00

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  41·05

  7·93

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -12·02

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -34·45

  3·31

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -10·04

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -27·85

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -6·75

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -21·25

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  -0·15

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  75·00

  9·40

  90·00

  -14·65

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  6·45

  Lone parent with 2 children aged 4 and 6 with mortgage

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Net mortgage interest

  CC

  Net earnings

  FC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  75·00

  9·40

  -26·16

  57·70

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  52·64

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  75·00

  9·40

  -17·06

  54·14

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  58·18

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  75·00

  9·40

  -7·96

  47·77

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  60·91

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  75·00

  9·40

  1·14

  41·40

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  63·64

  100·00

  ·89

  5·36

  75·00

  9·40

  9·35

  35·65

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  66·10

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  75·00

  9·40

  15·95

  31·03

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  68·08

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  75·00

  9·40

  22·55

  26·41

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  70·06

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  75·00

  9·40

  29·15

  21·79

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  72·04

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  75·00

  9·40

  35·75

  17·17

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  74·02

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  75·00

  9·40

  42·35

  12·55

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  76·00

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  75·00

  9·40

  48·95

  7·93

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  77·98

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  75·00

  9·40

  55·55

  3·31

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  79·96

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  75·00

  9·40

  62·15

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  83·25

  854
  The information requested is set out in the tables. It should be noted that the results in the tables remain arbitrary. They cannot reflect, except by chance, the actual circumstances of particular people and cannot claim to be representative of the population at large. The tables use hypothetical rents so they do not reflect the full range of housing costs which people can pay. All other assumptions are as detailed in the published tax benefit model tables.

  This reply also updates and replaces figures previously supplied, applying the assumptions in the tax benefit model tables recently published, and corrects typographical errors in the Official Report,13 May, columns 31–34.

  Lone parent with two children aged 4 and 6

  £

  (a) not working, after one year on benefit

  Income Support

  57·65

  Child Benefit

  21·10

  Rent Rebate

  26·03

  Community Charge Benefit

  3·76

  Total Net Income

  113·81

  Net Income After Rent and Community Charge

  83·03

  (b) earning £20 per week from part-time earnings

  Earnings

  20·00

  Income Support

  52·65

  Child Benefit

  21·10

  Rent Rebate

  26·03

  Community Charge Benefit

  3·76

  Total Net Income

  128·81

  Net Income After Rent and Community Charge

  98·03

  Notes:

  1. Child Benefit includes One Parent Benefit.

  Net Income after Rent and Community Charge includes the notional value of free school meals and welfare foods.
  855

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Net mortgage interest

  CC

  Net earnings

  FC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  75·00

  9·40

  68·75

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  89·85

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  75·00

  9·40

  75·35

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  96·45

  Lone parent with 2 children aged 4 and 6 and child care costs Net income after rent and community charge on income supplement 83·08

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Rent

  CC

  Child care

  Net earnings

  EC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -62·49

  57·70

  21·10

  8·03

  0·00

  24·34

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -53·39

  54·14

  21·10

  4·43

  0·00

  26·28

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -44·29

  47·77

  21·10

  2·66

  0·00

  27·24

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -35·19

  41·40

  21·10

  0·88

  0·00

  28·19

  100·00

  0·89

  5·36

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -26·98

  35·65

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  29·77

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -20·38

  31·03

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  31·75

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -13·78

  26·41

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  33·73

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -7·18

  21·79

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  35·71

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  -0·58

  17·17

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  37·69

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  6·02

  12·55

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  39·67

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  12·62

  7·93

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  41·65

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  19·22

  3·31

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  43·63

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  25·82

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  46·92

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  32·42

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  53·52

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  26·03

  4·70

  90·00

  39·02

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  60·12

  Lone parent with 2 children aged 4 and 6 Net income after rent and community charge on income support: 83·08

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Rent

  CC

  Net earnings

  EC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  26·03

  4·70

  27·51

  57·70

  21·10

  8·03

  0·00

  114·34

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  26·03

  4·70

  36·61

  54·14

  21·10

  4·43

  0·00

  116·28

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  26·03

  4·70

  45·71

  47·77

  21·10

  2·66

  0·00

  117·24

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  26·03

  4·70

  54·81

  41·40

  21·10

  0·88

  0·00

  118·19

  100·00

  0·89

  5·36

  26·03

  4·70

  63·02

  35·65

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  119·77

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  26·03

  4·70

  69·62

  31·03

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  121·75

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  26·03

  4·70

  75·76

  26·41

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  123·73

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  26·03

  4·70

  82·82

  21·79

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  125·71

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  26·03

  4·70

  89·42

  17·17

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  127·69

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  26·03

  4·70

  96·02

  12·55

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  129·67

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  26·03

  4·70

  102·62

  7·93

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  131·65

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  26·03

  4·70

  109·22

  3·31

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  133·63

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  26·03

  4·70

  115·82

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  136·92

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  26·03

  4·70

  122·42

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  143·52

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  26·03

  4·70

  129·02

  0·00

  21·10

  0·00

  0·00

  150·12

  Married couple with 2 children aged 4 and 6 Net income after rent and community charge on income support: 100·29

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Rent

  CC

  Net earnings

  FC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  26·03

  9·40

  22·81

  57·70

  15·50

  10·08

  3·84

  109·93

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  26·03

  9·40

  31·91

  54·14

  15·50

  6·48

  3·01

  111·04

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  26·03

  9·40

  41·01

  47·77

  15·50

  4·71

  2·60

  111·59

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  26·03

  9·40

  50·11

  41·40

  15·50

  2·93

  2·19

  112·13

  100·00

  ·89

  5·36

  26·03

  9·40

  58·32

  35·65

  15·50

  1·33

  1·82

  112·62

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  26·03

  9·40

  64·92

  31·03

  15·50

  0·00

  1·52

  112·97

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  26·03

  9·40

  71·52

  26·41

  15·50

  0·00

  1·23

  114·66

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  26·03

  9·40

  78·12

  21·79

  15·50

  0·00

  0·93

  116·34

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  26·03

  9·40

  84·72

  17·17

  15·50

  0·00

  0·63

  118·02

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  26·03

  9·40

  91·32

  12·55

  15·50

  0·00

  0·33

  119·70

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  26·03

  9·40

  97·92

  7·93

  15·50

  0·00

  0·04

  121·39

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  26·03

  9·40

  104·52

  3·31

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  123·33

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  26·03

  9·40

  111·12

  0·00

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  126·62

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  26·03

  9·40

  117·72

  0·00

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  133·22

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  26·03

  9·40

  124·32

  0·00

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  139·82

  856 857

  Married couple with 2 children aged 4 and 6 with mortgage Net income after mortgage and community charge on income support: 100·29

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Net mortgage interest

  CC

  Net earnings

  FC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  75·00

  9·40

  -26·16

  57·70

  15·50

  0·00

  3·84

  50·88

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  75·00

  9·40

  -17·06

  54·14

  15·50

  0·00

  3·01

  55·59

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  75·00

  9·40

  -7·96

  47·77

  15·50

  0·00

  2·60

  57·91

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  75·00

  9·40

  1·14

  41·40

  15·50

  0·00

  2·19

  60·23

  100·00

  0·89

  5·36

  75·00

  9·40

  9·35

  35·65

  15·50

  0·00

  1·82

  62·32

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  75·00

  9·40

  15·95

  31·03

  15·50

  0·00

  1·52

  64·00

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  75·00

  9·40

  22·55

  26·41

  15·50

  0·00

  1·23

  65·69

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  75·00

  9·40

  29·15

  21·79

  15·50

  0·00

  0·93

  67·37

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  75·00

  9·40

  35·75

  17·17

  15·50

  0·00

  0·63

  69·05

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  75·00

  9·40

  42·35

  12·55

  15·50

  0·00

  0·33

  70·73

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  75·00

  9·40

  48·95

  7·93

  15·50

  0·00

  0·04

  72·42

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  75·00

  9·40

  55·55

  3·31

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  74·36

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  75·00

  9·40

  62·15

  0·00

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  77·65

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  75·00

  9·40

  68·75

  0·00

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  84·25

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  75·00

  9·40

  75·35

  0·00

  15·50

  0·00

  0·00

  90·85

  Married couple with 3 children aged 3, 8 and 11 Net income after rent and community charge on income support: 123·07

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Net mortgage interest

  CC

  Net earnings

  FC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  26·03

  9·40

  22·81

  73·80

  22·75

  7·74

  3·30

  130·40

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  26·03

  9·40

  31·91

  70·24

  22·75

  4·14

  2·47

  131·51

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  26·03

  9·40

  41·01

  63·87

  22·75

  2·37

  2·06

  132·06

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  26·03

  9·40

  50·11

  57·50

  22·75

  0·59

  1·65

  132·60

  100·00

  ·89

  5·36

  26·03

  9·40

  58·32

  51·75

  22·75

  0·00

  1·28

  134·10

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  26·03

  9·40

  64·92

  47·13

  22·75

  0·00

  0·98

  135·78

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  26·03

  9·40

  71·52

  42·51

  22·75

  0·00

  0·69

  137·47

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  26·03

  9·40

  78·12

  37·89

  22·75

  0·00

  0·39

  139·15

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  26·03

  9·40

  84·72

  33·27

  22·75

  0·00

  0·09

  140·83

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  26·03

  9·40

  91·32

  28·65

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  142·72

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  26·03

  9·40

  97·92

  24·03

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  144·70

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  26·03

  9·40

  104·52

  19·41

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  146·68

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  26·03

  9·40

  111·12

  14·79

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  148·66

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  26·03

  9·40

  117·72

  10·17

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  150·64

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  26·03

  9·40

  124·32

  5·55

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  152·62

  Married couple with 3 children aged 3, 8 and 11 with mortgage Net income after mortgage and community charge on income support: 123·07

  Earnings per week

  Tax

  NI

  Net mortgage interest

  CC

  Net earnings

  FC

  CHB

  HB

  CCB

  Disposable income

  60·00

  0·00

  1·76

  75·00

  9·40

  -26·16

  73·80

  22·75

  0·00

  3·30

  73·69

  70·00

  0·00

  2·66

  75·00

  9·40

  -17·06

  70·24

  22·75

  0·00

  2·47

  78·40

  80·00

  0·00

  3·56

  75·00

  9·40

  -7·96

  63·87

  22·75

  0·00

  2·06

  80·72

  90·00

  0·00

  4·46

  75·00

  9·40

  1·14

  57·50

  22·75

  0·00

  1·65

  83·04

  100·00

  0·89

  5·36

  75·00

  9·40

  9·35

  51·75

  22·75

  0·00

  1·28

  85·13

  110·00

  3·39

  6·26

  75·00

  9·40

  15·95

  47·13

  22·75

  0·00

  0·98

  86·81

  120·00

  5·89

  7·16

  75·00

  9·40

  22·55

  42·51

  22·75

  0·00

  0·69

  88·50

  130·00

  8·39

  8·06

  75·00

  9·40

  29·15

  37·89

  22·75

  0·00

  0·39

  90·18

  140·00

  10·89

  8·96

  75·00

  9·40

  35·75

  33·27

  22·75

  0·00

  0·09

  91·86

  150·00

  13·39

  9·86

  75·00

  9·40

  42·35

  28·65

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  93·75

  160·00

  15·89

  10·76

  75·00

  9·40

  48·95

  24·03

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  95·73

  170·00

  18·39

  11·66

  75·00

  9·40

  55·55

  19·41

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  97·71

  180·00

  20·89

  12·56

  75·00

  9·40

  62·15

  14·79

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  99·69

  190·00

  23·39

  13·46

  75·00

  9·40

  68·75

  10·17

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  101·67

  200·00

  25·89

  14·36

  75·00

  9·40

  75·35

  5·55

  22·75

  0·00

  0·00

  103·65

SCOTLAND

  Local Authority Employees
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the total numbers of full-time and part-time employees in each local authority in Scotland, and the gross totals, broken down by category, in 1979 and in the latest year for which figures are available.
  858
  Mr. Allan Stewart
  Quarterly figures for local authority staffing have been published jointly by the Scottish Office and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities since 1976 and are available in the Library. Prior to 1981, figures for individual local authorities were not held centrally.

  School Catchment Areas
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland of how many instances he is aware of pupils who live within the appropriate catchment area being denied places in schools which have pupils from outwith the catchment area on their rolls as a result of placing requests.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Since August 1990, two letters have been received in the Scottish Office from parents with children of school age who moved into a catchment area but at that time were unable to secure a place for their child at their local school.

  Education
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table to show for each regional council in Scotland the cost of educating a child in(a) a primary school and (b) a secondary school where the school is (i) owned by a public authority and (ii) church owned by reference to denomination.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The available information is given in the table. It excludes the cost of school transport, meals and milk and central administration. Separate information for denominational and non-denominational schools is not available.

  Net current expenditure per pupil in primary and secondary schools 1989–90

  Region

  Primary £

  Secondary £

  Borders

  1,455

  2,328

  Central

  1,377

  2,366

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,279

  2,525

  Oil seed rape (hectares)

  Year

  Country

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Scotland

  22,000

  45,000

  42,000

  36,000

  45,000

  England and Wales

  276,000

  341,000

  304,000

  283,000

  343,000

  Belgium

  3,000

  4,000

  4,000

  5,000

  n/a

  Denmark

  226,000

  252,000

  200,000

  236,000

  n/a

  Germany

  308,000

  428,000

  385,000

  429,000

  n/a

  Spain

  5,000

  7,000

  8,000

  10,000

  n/a

  France

  392,000

  737,000

  865,000

  625,000

  n/a

  Ireland

  2,000

  6,000

  4,000

  4,000

  n/a

  Italy

  23,000

  28,000

  23,000

  16,000

  n/a

  Luxembourg

  1,000

  1,000

  1,000

  1,000

  n/a

  Netherlands

  6,000

  10,000

  7,000

  6,000

  n/a

  Brechin Infirmary
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has had regarding the closure of the upper floor of Brechin infirmary about the reduction in the number of general practitioner beds; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I have received seven letters on Tayside health board's proposals to rationalise general practitioner beds at Brechin infirmary.

  It is the responsibility of the health board, in the light of local circumstances and priorities, to determine the extent and level of services it provides and to review the adequacy of such services to ensure that the best use is made of resources.
  860

  Region

  Primary £

  Secondary £

  Fife

  1,421

  2,354

  Grampian

  1,342

  2,524

  Highland

  1,434

  2,323

  Lothian

  1,313

  2,513

  Strathclyde

  1,407

  2,502

  Tayside

  1,297

  2,537

  Orkney

  1,686

  3,218

  Shetland

  1,815

  3,873

  Western Isles

  1,876

  3,270

  Source: Local authority financial returns.

  Oil Seed Rape
  Mr. Andrew Welsh
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the number and content of research projects sponsored by his Department on oil seed rape.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  A research grant of £63,000 over three years was awarded to Aberdeen university in 1990 by the Scottish Office Home and Health Department for a project to study the effects of oil seed rape on human health.

  Mr. Andrew Welsh
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list figures showing oil seed rape acreage separately for England and Wales, Scotland and each EC country in each year over the past five years.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The figures requested are given in the table:

  Gross Domestic Product
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what was the gross domestic fixed capital formation in Scotland as a percentage of the United Kingdom figure in 1979; and what is the percentage for the latest year for which figures are available;

  (2) what was Scotland's gross domestic product as a percentage of United Kingdom gross domestic product in 1979; and what is the percentage in the latest year for which figures are available;

  (3) what percentage the Scottish contribution to United Kingdom manufacturing declined between 1979 and the latest year for which figures are available;

  (4) what percentage of United Kingdom gross domestic fixed capital formation in (a) all industries for which an estimate is available and (b) manufacturing originated in Scotland for each year from 1979 to the latest year for which figures are available;
  861
  (5) what gross domestic product was per head in Scotland in cash terms and as a percentage of the United Kingdom figure for each year since 1979.

  Mr. Lang
  The available information can be obtained from the regional accounts databank in the Library. Library staff will be pleased to assist in obtaining this.

  Regional Assistance
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing expenditure on regional preferential assistance to industry in Scotland for each year from 1974 to the most recently available date in cash and constant prices.

  Mr. Lang
  The information requested is given in the table.

  Gross expenditure on regional preferential assistance

  Cash Prices £ million

  Constant 1989–90 Prices £ million

  1974–75

  143·5

  603·6

  1975–76

  226·0

  757·3

  1976–77

  212·8

  628·0

  1977–78

  142·7

  370·5

  1978–79

  156·5

  366·4

  1979–80

  140·8

  282·5

  1980–81

  198·1

  335·9

  1981–82

  234·5

  362·6

  1982–83

  369·4

  533·4

  1983–84

  228·6

  315·5

  1984–85

  187·2

  245·9

  1985–86

  197·0

  245·4

  1986–87

  242·4

  291·8

  1987–88

  153·2

  175·1

  1988–89

  151·2

  160·8

  1989–90

  144·6

  144·6

  11990–91

  159·1

  147·7

  1 (provisional).

  Note: Includes gross expenditure in Scotland on regional selective assistance, regional development grants, regional enterprise grants, Scottish Development Agency and Highlands and Islands Development Board expenditure on grants and land and factory building. The figures also include a number of forms of assistance in the years up to 1982 which have been discontinued.

  Crime Statistics
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the(a) total number of recorded crimes and (b) crime rate per 100,000 population in Scotland for each year from 1979 to the most recent year for which figures are available.

  Mr. Lang
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Labour Statistics
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) how many employees in employment in Scotland worked in service industries in(a) June 1990 and (b) June 1991;

  (2) how many employees there were in manufacturing in 1979 in Scotland; and how many there were in the latest year for which figures are available;

  (3) how many employees in employment in Scotland there were in June 1979; and how many there were in June 1991.
  862
  Mr. Lang
  Estimates of the number of employees in employment in Scotland are available up to March 1991. The table gives the available information.

  Employees in employment in Scotland

  Thousands

  Total

  Manufacturing

  Services

  June 1979

  2,102

  604

  1,224

  June 1990

  1,973

  398

  1,353

  March 1991

  1,956

  388

  1,355

  Source: Employment Department quarterly estimates of employees in employment.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many(a) men and (b) women in employment in Scotland currently earn less than £3·40 per hour.

  Mr. Lang
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Homelessness
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the official homelessness statistics for Scotland for each year since 1979.

  Mr. Lang
  Statistics of households who applied to Scottish local authorities under the homeless persons legislation for the years 1978–79 to 1989–90 were published in table 15 of statistical bulletin HSG/1991/4, "Housing Trends in Scotland—Quarter ended 31 December 1990". Copies were sent to all Members representing Scottish constituencies and are available in the House Library. Since then a small number of late returns have been received for 1988–89 and 1989–90. Revised figures for these years are given below. Returns for 1990–91 are now being received, and will be published in due course.

  Applicant households under the homeless persons legislation by local authority assessment and year, Scotland

  Local authority assessment

  1988–89

  1989–901

  Total applicants

  24,711

  28,501

  Homeless

  9,630

  11,203

  priority unintentional

  6,718

  7,934

  priority intentional

  727

  878

  non priority

  2,185

  2,391

  Potentially homeless

  6,122

  6,661

  priority unintentional

  4,146

  4,664

  priority intentional

  416

  482

  non priority

  1,560

  1,515

  Neither homeless nor potentially homeless

  2,464

  2,960

  Lost contact

  6,495

  7,677

  1 Some 2,000 returns, mostly from Glasgow, are estimated to remain outstanding.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the Glasgow Council for the Single Homeless and the Richmond Fellowship on homelessness among discharged psychiatric patients; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  We have received no such representations from these bodies.

  It is Government policy, however, that patients should not be discharged from hospital until their needs have been assessed and proper arrangements made for their care in the community.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the young housing monitoring group on homelessness among young people; and if he will make a statement.
  863
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I recently received from Edinburgh Council for the Single Homeless a copy of the group's report, "Still in Demand", which presents information gathered by 20 housing agencies in Edinburgh from 274 people in the 16 to 24 age group who came to them in September 1990 seeking accommodation. I have read the report with interest. My reply to the council drew attention to the additional capital allocation of £0·75 million which we have made available to Edinburgh district council in 1991–92 for projects to combat homelessness, which should help the young people who are the subject of the report.

  Health Boards
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the capital expenditure bids of each health board in Scotland and their allocated capital expenditure budget for 1990–91.

  Mr. Lang
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Earnings
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what were average gross male weekly earnings in Scotland for each year since 1979 in cash terms, and as a percentage of the United Kingdom figure.

  Mr. Lang
  Information on the average gross male weekly earnings of full-time employees on adult rates for Scotland and Great Britain in April of each year can be obtained from part E reports from the New Earnings Survey. These are available from the Library. There is no comparable information readily available for the United Kingdom.

  Hospital Beds
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the number of(a) hospital beds and (b) acute beds for Scotland in each year from 1979 until the latest year for which figures are available and the percentage changes from 1979 to the most recent year available.

  Mr. Lang
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Testosterone
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what evaluation has been made of Di Hydrase Testosterone as a medicine for damaged prostates.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I have no information on any product with this name. The in vivo metabolite of Testosterone, Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), is believed to be an active agent within the prostate gland responsible for normal and abnormal growth. There are no known studies on the use of DHT as a treatment, but there is ongoing research into the effects of DHT inhibitors.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many BSE carcases have been(a) incinerated and (b) buried in 1991 in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  In the period January to May 1991, 281 BSE carcases were incinerated and two buried in Scotland.

  Hospital Building Projects
  Mr. Sillars
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will give a breakdown of the completed hospital and ward building programme for each of the years since 1979, by local health board, with the location and cost of each proposed new hospital building project and the total cost;

  (2) if he will give a breakdown of the present hospital and ward building programme by local health boards, with the location and cost of each proposed new hospital building project and the total cost.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Trust Hospitals
  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what guidance he has given to trust hospitals in Scotland about prices charged to health authorities in areas and specialties for which the trust hospital is a monopoly supplier.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Guidance has been issued to those units which have applied, or are considering applying, for trust status. This guidance advises that prices charged to health boards should cover all costs plus a 6 per cent. return on the current value of net assets. This requirement is binding on all NHS trust units.

  Bus Companies (Prosecutions)
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many prosecutions there have been against(a) public and (b) private bus companies in Scotland for each year since 1980 for (i) drivers' hours violations and (ii) vehicle standards violations.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The information requested is not separately identifiable within the criminal statistics maintained by the Scottish Office Home and Health Department.

  School and Nursery Building Programmes
  Mr. Sillars
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will provide a breakdown of the completed school and nursery building programme for each of the years since 1979, by local education authority, together with the location and cost of each completed new building project and the total cost;

  (2) if he will give a breakdown of the present school and nursery provision building programme by local education authority, together with the location and cost of each proposed new building project and the total cost.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information requested may be obtained from individual education authorities.

  Youth Training
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has received any representations about the youth training guarantees from local enterprise councils.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise are responsible for delivering the Government's youth training guarantee in their areas. If
  865
  any one of the local enterprise companies with which these bodies contract were concerned about the delivery of the youth training guarantee in its area it would bring that concern to the attention of either Scottish Enterprise or Highlands and Islands Enterprise as appropriate. However, neither Scottish Enterprise nor Highlands and Islands Enterprise has suggested to my right hon. Friend that it doubts its ability to ensure that the guarantee is met.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give, as per the requirement set out in the local enterprise council operating agreement, the number of youth training starts and the number of youth training trainees in training at the end of the four-weekly period as set out in the schedule of management information(a) for the most recent period for which information is available and (b) for local enterprise councils.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  Local enterprise company operating contracts are contracts between individual local enterprise companies and Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise as appropriate. These contracts require local enterprise companies to deliver management information to these bodies; not to my right hon. Friend. I have therefore asked the chairmen of both bodies to write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the latest figure for participants in youth training.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  In Scotland responsibility for the delivery of youth training rests with Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise. I have asked the chairmen of these bodies to write to the hon. Member with the information he has requested.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Lang
  The number of parliamentary questions put down for written answer during the last Session and so far this Session is:

  Session 1989–90—2,566

  Session 1990–91 (figures to 23 July 1991)—2,242

  The information requested for (a), (b) and (c) could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Ambulance Service, Inverness
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he proposes to retain the control of the Highland and Western Isles ambulance service in Inverness; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Orkney and Shetland (Ferries)
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress his Department has made in monitoring freight and passenger traffic levels on the ferry routes between Orkney, Shetland and the Scottish mainland, in connection with his promised mid-year review of the subvention rates; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Ethnic Minorities (Education)
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will bring forward proposals to specify funding from revenue support grant to local authorities for education and support of ethnic minorities; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  The Government have no plans to introduce such a specific grant scheme in Scotland. Local authority spending in this area is supported by RSG.

  Further Education
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations his Department has received from the Association of Principals of Colleges on financial aid to assist the transition of further education colleges to autonomous institutions; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The Scottish branch of the Association of Principals of Colleges has welcomed the publication of the White Paper "Access and Opportunity" and support the establishment of colleges of further education as autonomous institutions. To assist the transition to the new status, the association has called for funding to be made available for financial, legal and administrative structures. Careful consideration is being given to these representations together with others received on the White Paper.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations his Department has received from the Scottish Further and Higher Education Association on the White Paper "Access and Opportunity —A Strategy for Education"; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The Scottish Further and Higher Education Association has made a number of detailed comments on the White Paper proposals. These are being given careful consideration together with more than 100 other responses received.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration his Department has given to the demise of the Scottish Institute of Adult and Continuing Education and to the possible establishment of a successor body; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The demise of the Scottish Institute of Adult Education, which received grant from the Scottish Office Education Department, was a matter for the institute's governing body. The Department is currently reviewing the work of the Scottish Council for Education in the Community, including its role in adult education.
  867
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations his Department has received from the Association of Principals of Colleges concerning the importance of local authority representation on councils of further education colleges after 1993; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The Scottish branch of the Association of Principals, in its response to the White Paper, "Access and Opportunity", has indicated that it considers it important that local authorities continue to be represented on the new councils after 1 April 1993. Careful consideration is being given to these representations together with others received on the White Paper.

  Fish Disease
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will obtain for his departmental library a copy of the findings of research by the Federal Research Institute for Fisheries, Hamburg, published by the German Research Service, concerning the incidence of tumours caused by pollution in fish in the North sea generally and the estuary of the River Tay in particular; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Scientists in the Department have not yet seen the full report, which they are still trying to obtain. They have, however, received more recent data from the German scientists concerned with the report. None of the data that they have seen over a period of several years demonstrates links between disease levels in fish and pollution.

  Horizon Programme
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps his Department is taking to advise and assist interested groups in Scotland to apply for funds from the European social fund Horizon programme to provide job opportunities for the physically and mentally handicapped; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  This is a matter for which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment takes responsibility; the position in relation to Scotland will be dealt with in the reply to the similar question which the hon. Member has put to my right hon. and learned Friend on this subject.

  Public Transport
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will bring forward regulations so as to ring-fence allocations for public transport measures within the budgets of local authorities.

  Mr. Lang
  I will write to the right hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Primary School Testing
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to continue the testing of primary 4 and primary 7 pupils in English language and mathematics.

  Mr. Lang
  A pilot round of tests in English language and mathematics was scheduled to be taken by primary 4868
  and primary 7 pupils between 1 March and 30 April this year. Overall about one third of eligible children sat tests, the figures for individual education authorities ranging from virtually 100 per cent. to under 5 per cent. The returns from the two largest authorities were both very close to the average.

  A detailed evaluation of the pilot round of testing in over 100 schools has been carried out by a panel of moderators led by a former Chief Inspector of Schools. This was published on 23 July and I have arranged for a copy of the report to be placed in the Library of the House. This report confirms the quality of the test material and the practicability of administering the tests without significant disruption to class or school routine or distress to the pupils involved. At the same time the report makes a number of detailed recommendations. These focus particularly on the extent of introduction necessary by teachers for some test units and the procedures for marking the writing tests which proved to be over-elaborate. Other recommendations concern the assembly and organisation of resources and materials.

  In the light of this report and of other comments made I have decided that testing of primary 4 and primary 7 children in English language and mathematics remains an important part of pupil assessment, and that the arrangements for its conduct should be altered to meet representations which have been made and to remedy shortcomings which have been identified. Amending regulations are accordingly being laid before the House today which will govern primary testing for the school session beginning next month. These regulations introduce two changes to the arrangements which applied to the pilot round.

  First, testing will be permitted throughout the course of the school session instead of during the fixed period 1 March to 30 April. This change has been urged by representatives of education authorities, teacher organisations and parents. It will allow the tests more easily to match the school's own curricular planning, will facilitate school organisation and management and will allow tests more clearly to serve the purpose for which they are intended: to provide a measure of each pupil's progress. The last date for ordering test units is adjusted accordingly.

  Secondly, the requirement to provide a summary of test results to school boards is modified to require such a summary to be presented only where this can be done without identifying the results of any individual pupil. This change responds to concern that the previous wording might inevitably have required the disclosure of individual pupils' results where the summary related to classes in very small schools.

  A new document about test arrangements is also in preparation for the 1991–92 round of tests. This will take account of the more detailed observations and comments contained in the evaluation study and in representations which have been made from other sources.

  Testing has been the subject of considerable misunderstanding and misrepresentation since it was first announced as part of the 5 to 14 development programme in the consultation document, "Curriculum and Assessment: A Policy for the 90s". The changes now being introduced are intended to meet concerns which have been expressed. I hope they will be viewed in that light and that education authorities, teachers and parents will now join in ensuring that testing takes its place as an established and

  869
  valuable element in the 5 to 14 programme, which itself has been very well received. As the citizens charter recognises, test results are an important element in the reports on their children's progress to which all parents are entitled.

  It has also been represented by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and others that the stock of test units might be expanded so that they may be used at all stages of primary and early secondary education to confirm the accuracy of a teacher's assessment of a child's achievements. I am attracted to this suggestion and hope that in collaboration with education authorities it can be further developed.

  A number of commentators have likewise asked for attention to be given to supporting those children whom the tests show as experiencing difficulty in one or more aspects of language and mathematics. I am anxious to respond to these requests. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities have been asked for their views on how resources for learning support might best be deployed for this purpose. I have also asked the Scottish Office Education Department to review the diagnostic tests needed to help identify with greater precision the support needed for any particular pupil. That work is currently under way.

  Hospital Trusts
  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what financial plan and projections he has received from either the sponsors of the Foresterhill hospitals unit trust application or Grampian health board relating to the trust application; and if he will make it his policy to publish such information as soon as it is available.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 24 July 1991]: The sponsors of the Foresterhill hospitals unit trust have submitted a detailed financial plan and projections covering three years. These will be treated as commercially confidential, but the trust will be asked to publish business plans for 1992–93.

  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when and at what rate of interest he will declare a dividend on public dividend capital in respect of trust hospitals in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Where a trust has a surplus, it will agree with the management executive whether to redeem part of its interest-bearing debt or invest it with approved institutions to provide for future capital expenditure or to declare a dividend.

  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what will be the external financing limit for the proposed Foresterhill hospitals unit NHS trust in each of the financial years 1992–93, 1993–94 and 1994–95.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 24 July 1991]: External financing limits for NHS trusts are determined each year taking into account the amount of finance available nationally, the estimated capital expenditure of the trusts and the amount of internally generated resources. The figures for the years requested are therefore not known at this time.

  National Health Service Finance
  Mr. Robert Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the existing external financing limit for Grampian health board.
  870
  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 24 July 1991]: I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Doran) on 24 July 1991.

  Forestry Commission Land
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, further to his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields on 14 March,Official Report, columns 689–90, if he will list the Forestry Commission's land which has been put up for sale since that date; whether it has since been sold; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 23 July 1991]: The following forest areas have been placed on the open market since my earlier answer, and those marked with an asterisk have now been sold:

  County/Region

  Name

  Area hectares

  England

  Cumbria

  Coldside Wood, Kershope

  17

  Dorset

  Blackwater Copse

  13

  Gloucestershire

  Valley Road, Cinderford

  21

  Hampshire

  Mill Copse

  6

  Humberside

  Wrawby Moor

  70

  Somerset

  Chargot Estate

  18

  Suffolk

  Grimsditch Woods

  17

  Scotland

  Borders

  Hardens

  88

  Fife

  Ballantager Burn

  *4

  Fife

  High Valley Field

  *27

  Fife

  Kilwhiss Strip

  *3

  Fife

  Muirrow and Muirdean

  *33

  Fife

  Outhmuir

  *10

  Fife

  Parknowe

  *11

  Grampian

  Barlatch

  3

  Grampian

  Bloody Faulds

  3

  Grampian

  Coral Brae

  24

  Grampian

  Drakemyres

  32

  Grampian

  Hillend Moss

  16

  Grampian

  Kincardine District Woodlands

  161

  Grampian

  Knock Hill Wood

  56

  Highland

  Achibeg

  27

  Strathclyde

  Ardchuple Wood

  *2

  Strathclyde

  Blarchoarain

  *36

  Strathclyde

  Craigbarnet and Norwood

  *16

  Strathclyde

  St. Catherines Plantation

  *32

  Strathclyde

  Todlaw

  370

  Tayside

  Innerpeffray

  *67

  Tayside

  Innerwick and Camusurachan

  *125

  Wales

  Clwyd

  Coed Esgynfa

  7

  Clwyd

  Coed Min yr Afon

  2

  Clwyd

  Coed Penygelli

  29

  Clwyd

  Coed Penynant

  9

  Clwyd

  Crown Wood

  29

  Clwyd

  Glol Wood

  27

  Clwyd

  Travellers Inn

  5

  Clwyd

  Travellers Inn Gorse

  5

  Dyfed

  Aberdedle

  7

  Dyfed

  Allt Banc Sina

  18

  Dyfed

  Allt Dolfelfed

  16

  Dyfed

  Allt Gudd

  6

  Dyfed

  Allt Llwyn Dyfrion

  11

  Dyfed

  Allt Pistyll Dewi

  33

  Dyfed

  Bryn Wicket

  8

  Dyfed

  Coed Pant Sglodion

  18

  Dyfed

  Cynheidre Uchaf

  24

  Dyfed

  Danygraig

  10

  Dyfed

  Garn Fach

  21

  Dyfed

  Glas Pant

  4

  Dyfed

  Glebe Woods

  17

  Dyfed

  Lon Isaf

  7

  871

  County/Region

  Name

  Area hectares

  Dyfed

  Long Wood

  24

  Dyfed

  Maes y Bont

  1

  Dyfed

  Panteynon and Allt y Forlan

  29

  Dyfed

  Pengallt (Allt y Foel)

  18

  Dyfed

  Pont Henri

  14

  Dyfed

  Portis Pant

  30

  Dyfed

  Quay Wood

  7

  Dyfed

  Rhos y Gwydir

  2

  Dyfed

  River Wood

  1

  Dyfed

  Stradmore Wood

  22

  Dyfed

  Tynton Wood

  4

  Dyfed

  Wenallt

  17

  Dyfed

  Westland West Wood

  2

  Gwent

  Llangattock Great Wood

  8

  Gwynedd

  Braich Blaen Tafolog

  28

  Gwynedd

  Moel Groes Heol

  130

  Powys

  Beacon Lodge

  38

  Powys

  Bronfelen

  10

  Powys

  Coed Cae Gilbert

  5

  Powys

  Craig yr Henffordd

  8

  Powys

  Cwmgilla

  30

  County/region

  Name

  Name of purchaser

  Sale price

  Grid reference

  England

  Cornwall

  Headweir

  —

  —

  SS 237116

  Devon

  Heasley

  —

  —

  SS 732337

  Somerset

  Balls Wood

  —

  —

  ST 748423

  Somerset

  Pound Copse

  P.J. & R.C. Cary

  £16,500

  ST 763402

  Scotland

  Grampian

  Glasslaw

  —

  £32,300

  NK 628586

  Highland

  Brin Wood

  —

  —

  NH 626286

  Highland

  Clashnagrave

  —

  —

  NH 763948

  Highland

  Dirriemore

  —

  —

  NH 232764

  Strathclyde

  Thornwood

  Dr. F. Carswell

  £5,500

  NS 142697

  Strathclyde

  Ferns

  —

  —

  NS 141695

  Wales

  Gwent

  Ty Vree (Cook's Wood)

  ST 438978

  Local Authority Investment
  Sir Nicholas Fairbairn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what guidance he has given to local authorities on the use of surplus funds for investment.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  [holding answer 22 July 1991]: No such guidance has been issued.

  Drinking Water
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of drinking water supplies in Scotland that reach the level of the EEC directive on drinking water; and if he will name them.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  [holding answer 22 July 1991]: There are 331 public water supply zones in Scotland assessed as meeting the requirements of the EC drinking water directive, which are now incorporated into the Water Supply (Water Quality) (Scotland) Regulations 1990. I will send the hon. Member a list of their names and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library of the House.
  872

  County/Region

  Name

  Area hectares

  Powys

  Frachwen

  10

  Powys

  Nantywylan

  4

  Powys

  Pwll Llydan

  31

  Powys

  Rhiwgoch Woods

  61

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, further to his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields of 14 March,Official Report, columns 689–90, if he will list the Forestry Commission land which has now been sold, giving the name of the purchaser, the grid references, the county and the sale price; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 23 July 1991]: Of the properties listed in my previous answer, the following areas of Forestry Commission land have now been sold. The names and sale price are given only in cases where the purchasers have given their consent to such information being made public.

EMPLOYMENT

  Claimants
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give a breakdown for Scotland, Wales and each standard region in England of the percentage of unemployed claimants who have been unemployed for 12 months or more at the latest date for which figures are available.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information requested, relating to April 1991, can be obtained from the NOMIS database in the House of Commons Library.

  Training and Enterprise Councils
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list the ways by which training and enterprise councils are accountable to Parliament.

  Mr. Jackson
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave on 24 July,Official Report column 613.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will publish in the form of the requirement set out in the training and enterprise council operating agreement the number of youth training starts and the number of youth training trainees in training at the end of the four-weekly period as set out in the schedule of
  873
  management information (a) for the period covering January 1991 and (b) for each training and enterprise council.

  Mr. Jackson
  Reliable training and enterprise council level information is available only from April 1991.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the result of the findings of the recent audit of five TECs as regards the issue of new guidelines about operating surpluses and their use.

  Mr. Jackson
  The audit of the first five training and enteprise councils was not concerned in particular with the use of operating surpluses. The TEC contract states clearly that any operating surpluses will be used by the TEC to further the aims of its corporate and business plan.

  Learning Difficulties
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, further to his answer of 5 July,Official Report, column 218, if he will indicate what steps he is now taking to ensure adequate monitoring of the provision for people with learning difficulties within schemes for which he has ministerial responsibility.

  Mr. Jackson
  Each training and enterprise council is required to set out in its corporate and business plans how it intends to meet the needs of people with special training needs. These plans are subject to my approval, and that of the Secretary of State for Wales for TECs in Wales.

  The contractual requirements common to all TECs include providing appropriate training to people with special training needs, including those with learning difficulties. The Department has produced guidance on how to plan for and deliver training to meet those needs.

  TECs' performance against their plans are regularly discussed with officials of the Department. In addition, the training standards advisory service has a responsibility for appraising the quality of training offered by TECs.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, further to his answer of 4 July,Official Report, column 202, if he will now set targets for provision for people with learning difficulties.

  Mr. Jackson
  I have no plans to set such targets. The Government remain committed to the requirements on special training needs laid down in their agreements with TECs.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, further to his answer of 2 July,Official Report, column 108, what proportion of the £35 million package referred to in that answer will be applied (a) to provision in Wales, (b) to people with learning difficulties in the United Kingdom and (c) to people with learning difficulties in Wales.

  Mr. Jackson
  Some £2·5 million has been allocated to Wales. The Department's office for Wales will allocate the budget to TECs according to local need. It is not possible to say how much of the money will be spent on people with learning difficulties. However, the additional money is targeted on meeting special training needs alongside training for those in the guarantee and aim groups, some of whom will have learning difficulties.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, further to his answer of 4 July,Official
  874
  Report, column 202, if he will make it his policy to ensure that information on the number of people with learning difficulties is collected in future.

  Mr. Jackson
  I have no plans to identify separately information on people with learning difficulties among those with other special training needs.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, (1) further to his answer of 2 July,Official Report, column 108, for each training and employment council how each such training and enterprise council (a) in Wales and (b) in other parts of the United Kingdom has set out its intentions in regard to people with special needs in general and people with learning difficulties in particular;

  (2), further to his answer of 5 July, Official Report, column 218, whether he will set targets for the current year and future years in terms of provision for young people and adults with learning difficulties within the sphere of ministerial responsibilities.

  Mr. Jackson
  The TEC operating agreement states that each TEC must make suitable high-quality training available for all trainees who have disabilities, or other significant personal disadvantages which give rise to special training needs. TECs produce corporate and business plans on the basis of the operating agreement. TECs' corporate plans are public documents and are available in the House of Commons Library.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, further to his answer of 5 July,Official Report, column 218, if he will explain why the information requested is not available.

  Mr. Jackson
  Figures are collected on the number of people with disabilities in training, but these figures do not identify separately specific types of disability such as learning difficulties.

  Training, Enterprise and Education Directorate
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether his Department's list of awards eligible for funding by the Training, Enterprise and Education Directorate is available for planning purposes to organisations such as further education colleges, managing agents and awarding bodies.

  Mr. Jackson
  Full details of vocational qualifications accepted by the Employment Department for TEC funding appear in the National Council for Vocational Qualifications database. This is available for purchase by any training organisation or other interested party from NCVQ. A written summary of this information, in the form of vocational qualification of listings, is circulated by the Department to TECs to fulfil the obligations of the ED/TEC contract. TECs are free to pass on this information to whomever they wish.

  Youth Training
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give(a) the number of places in contract for 20 May, 23 June and 13 October, (b) the estimated net local recruitable potential up to 13 October, by (i) the stock of empty recruitable youth training places on 20 May and (ii) the cumulative total of new recruitment

  875
  opportunities becoming available between 21 May to 13 October, (c) the total number of externally resident young persons covered by youth training guarantees gaining entry to local places from 21 May to 13 October and (d) the net local recruitment potential up to 13 October, for each training and enterprise council.

  Mr. Jackson
  This information is in the form of estimates which are insufficiently reliable to warrant publication.

  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many trainees in the printing industry are entering youth training this year.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information requested is not available.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give, in terms of the information obtained in the review of the youth training supply and demand(a) the estimated number of locally resident young persons in the guarantee or extended guarantee groups actively seeking local entry or re-entry to youth training at 20 May 1990, (b) new guaranteed active seekers arising between 21 May to 13 October and (c) school pupils starting year of reaching minimum school leaving age in September 1990 remaining at school one year later, for each training and enterprise council.

  Mr. Jackson
  This information is in the form of estimates which are insufficiently reliable to warrant publication.

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether, based on the reporting arrangements outlined in schedule A of the model training and enterprise council operating agreement, any of the TECs in England and Wales has used the Bank of Credit and Commerce International for banking or investment; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  I am not aware of any TEC using BCCI for banking at the time the bank's business was suspended.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether any of the regional offices of the Training, Enterprise and Education Directorate consulted training and enterprise councils about banking with or investing in the Bank of Credit and Commerce International.

  Mr. Jackson
  Regional offices do not provide TECs, which are private limited companies, with advice about banking or investment with any financial institution.

  Health and Safety Executive
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment for what reasons the Health and Safety Executive imposed recruitment bans in 1989–90; and on what grades.

  Mr. Forth
  The Health and Safety Executive did not impose recruitment bans for any grades in 1989–90.

  Manufacturing (Fatalities)
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give the number of fatalities in the manufacturing industry in the United Kingdom and each EC member state for the years 1980 to 1990 giving the work force in each case; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  The information requested cannot be made available without disproportionate cost. Relevant information for major EC countries is contained in a recent Health and Safety Executive publication, "Workplace Health and Safety in Europe" which is in the House Library. This publication, which provides a rigorous comparison between countries which operate different reporting systems shows that the British record on accident rates stands up well in comparison with other major countries in the European Community.

  Printing Industry
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is the role and function of the national providers unit; and what assistance it is giving to the printing industry.

  Mr. Jackson
  The TECs and national providers unit within the Department provides a brokerage and administrative service to facilitate contracting between TECs and national providers where both parties wish. These services comprise:

  standardised contracting arrangements;

  a unified claims and payment service;

  centralised collection and dissemination of management information;

  assistance to TECs with financial appraisal and monitoring; and

  co-ordination on quality development.

  The British Printing Industry Federation's training organisation is making full use of all these services.

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Work Permits
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will publish the results of his review of the work permit scheme; when he expects the new scheme to be in operation; and what guidance he is giving to(a) employers and (b) workers about the new scheme.

  Mr. Forth
  I refer the hon. Member to my answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Brandon-Bravo) on 31 January,Official Report, columns 637–38. The main changes to the work permit

  877
  scheme will come into effect on 1 October 1991 when revised application forms and guidance notes for employers will be available.

  Hydrogen Sulphide Gas
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what established British safety standards exist for the piping on land of hydrogen sulphide gas; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  Hydrogen sulphide is not piped on land as a pure gas outside gas refineries; the safety of pipelines containing gases on land generally is governed by:

  The Pipelines Act 1962;

  The Notification of Installations Handling Hazardous Substances Regulations 1982;

  The Pressure Systems and Transportable Gas Containers Regulations 1989.

  In addition, the construction and operation of pipelines are subject to the general provisions of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, which require employers to protect the health and safety of employees and members of the public affected by work activity, and designers and manufacturers of articles for use at work to ensure that they are designed and constructed to be safe when properly used.

  British standards, where they exist, provide a sound basis for the design and construction of pipelines. Other national or international standards providing an equivalent standard of safety are also acceptable. A British standard code of practice (BS 8010) for pipelines is currently in preparation; this is largely based on what is already current practice, and being followed by much of the industry.

  Statutory Sick Pay
  Mr. Edwards
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representations he has received from trade unions, employers or employers' organisations in Wales about the likely effects of requiring employers to meet 20 per cent. of the costs of the statutory sick pay scheme.

  Mr. Forth
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Youth Unemployment
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what proposals he has to reduce youth unemployment in tourist areas when the holiday season has ended.

  Mr. Jackson
  All young people aged under 18 who are not in full-time education or a job are guaranteed the offer of a suitable place on youth training. The Employment Service offers immediate assistance to anyone who has lost their job. In addition anyone aged 18 to 24 who has been unemployed for between six and 12 months is guaranteed a place on employment training, the enterprise allowance scheme, the job interview guarantee or in a job club. Provision of youth training, employment training and the enterprise allowance scheme are matters for local training and enterprise councils, which are well placed to meet the particular circumstances, such as seasonal unemployment, that arise in their areas.

  Pop Concerts
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will arrange for a copy of the draft of the Health and Safety Executive guidance on pop concerts and similar events to be placed in the Library and a further copy to be supplied to the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West.

  Mr. Forth
  Yes. It is hoped that draft guidance will be available for consultation in October, when I will send a copy to the hon. and learned Member and arrange for a further copy to be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the length of and reasons for the delays in the preparation of guidance by the Health and Safety Executive on pop concerts and similar events.

  Mr. Forth
  Preparation of the guidance on safety at pop concerts, which is to be issued jointly by the Health and Safety Commission and the Home Office, started in spring 1990. It was initially hoped that a draft would be available for consultation in late summer 1990.

  Preparation of the guidance was delayed because of the complexity of the issues which needed to be addressed and the need to seek and obtain specialist advice.

  It is now hoped that a draft will be available for public consultation in October this year and, as the hon. and learned Member will be aware, the matter is being treated with high priority.

  Horizon Programme
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make it his policy to extend the European social fund Horizon programme to Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  The programme already applies in Scotland and project applications will be invited from organisations throughout Great Britain. In Scotland it is expected that most of the projects for the disadvantaged group under Horizon will come from the areas of Westerhailes, Castlemilk, Ferguslie and Whitfield. However, all projects will be considered for funding on their merit provided they meet the eligibility criteria of Horizon.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment which geographical areas are specified in his Department's guidelines for allocation of funds from the European social fund Horizon programme to provide job opportunities for the physically and mentally handicapped; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  The Horizon initiative is targeted at two specific groups; those with disabilities and the socially disadvantaged.

  Projects for people with disabilities will be invited from organisations throughout Great Britain.

  It is expected that most projects for the disadvantaged would come from the following areas:

  England—Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Bradford, Liverpool, Sheffield, Doncaster/Barnsley/Rotherham (Dearne Valley), Manchester, Salford, Wirral, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bristol, Lewisham, Tower Hamlets.

  Scotland—Westerhailes, Castlemilk, Ferguslie, Whitfield.

  There is no geographical restriction on projects in Wales, but they will be expected to be in or to clearly benefit those wards which show the highest incidence of urban deprivation.
  879
  However, all projects will be considered for funding on their merit provided that they meet the eligibility criteria for the Horizon programme.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what steps his Department is taking to advise and assist interested groups in their right to apply for funds from the European social fund horizon programme to provide job opportunities for the physically and mentally handicapped; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  Initial guidance on the eligibility criteria for the Horizon programme together with information on the process and timetable for applying has been sent to over 700 organisations which have expressed an interest.

  Further information and the application forms will be issued to potential applicants by the end of August. The deadline for the submission of projects will be the end of September.

  The approval and payment of projects is dependent on the European Commission agreeing the proposals in our operational programme on how we intend to implement Horizon, which we submitted on 12 July. Approval is expected from the Commission in November, with the money being received by my Department by the end of the year, and payments being made to approved projects soon afterwards.

  Golf Courses
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what guidance the Health and Safety Executive gave councils on the protection of the public from danger or injury when using public footpaths and bridleways across golf courses when delegating its responsibilities for health and safety in leisure and recreation to district councils.

  Mr. Forth
  It is the employer's duty to protect members of the public from danger or injury on golf courses. The Health and Safety Commission has published general guidance to employers on the need to protect the safety of members of the public. Specific guidance on golf course and range safety has been identified as a priority need and work on its preparation will start this summer. It is expected to publish this guidance in spring 1992.

  Wages (Underpayment)
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what steps he will take to increase prosecutions in the cases of illegal underpayment of wages identified by the wages inspectorate in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  The policy of the wages inspectorate under all Governments has been to seek compliance by advice and persuasion and to consider prosecution only where there is a deliberate or repeated disregard for the law. There are no plans at present to change this policy. Since 1953 to date there have been eight prosecutions in Scotland for illegal underpayments.

  Careers and Occupational Information Centre
  Mr. Rowe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what plans he has for the future operations of the careers and occupational information centre.
  880
  Mr. Howard
  I have considered the report of the consultants I appointed to investigate the future of COIC in the light of the results of last year's internal review of careers guidance, taking account of the Government's proposals to strengthen careers advice for young people set out in chapter 7 of the recent White Paper "Education and Training for the 21st Century" Cm 1536, vol. 1. I have concluded that privatisation is not feasible at present, and I am considering other options for the future of COIC.

  Unemployment Benefit Rules
  Mr. Knowles
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if his Department has received reports which have been commissioned into the operation of the actively seeking employment condition.

  Mr. Jackson
  I have today placed in the Library of the House a copy of a report commissioned from the Institute of Manpower Studies into job search behaviour following the introduction of actively seeking employment as a condition for entitlement to unemployment benefit.

  Employment Action Programme
  Mr. Knowles
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how the employment action programme will be funded.

  Mr. Jackson
  Parliamentary approval of this new expenditure will be sought in a winter supplementary estimate for the Employment Department programmes and central services vote (class VI, vote 1) in respect of England and Wales and for the Scottish Office training programmes and industrial support, Scotland vote (class XV, vote 3) in respect of Scotland. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at up to £8 million will be met by repayable advances from the Contingencies Fund.

  Employment Training
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is the menu which comprises the ET guarantee.

  Mr. Jackson
  The Government guarantee an offer of help to people aged between 18 and 24 who have been unemployed for between six and 12 months. This guaranteed help consists of an offer of a place on one of the programmes in the following menu: employment training; job interview guarantee; enterprise allowance; job club and, in future, employment action.

WALES

  Minimum Wage
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the cost and effect on unemployment of introducing a minimum wage in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The Department of Employment has estimated that the effect on employment in Great Britain of a minimum wage set at half median male earnings would be that, if wage differentials were restored by half, around 750,000 jobs could be lost. On the same assumption about differentials, a minimum wage set at two
  881
  thirds median male earnings could remove about 1·25 million jobs in Great Britain. On the assumption that they would be spread throughout Britain proportionately to employment below the proposed minima Welsh Office calculate that job losses in Wales could amount to 46,500 if the level were set at half median male earnings (6·2 per cent.) and 70,000 if at two thirds (5·6 per cent.) It is not possible to estimate the additional costs to employers in Wales.

  Disabled Children
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total number of children with disabilities in Wales according to(a) the severity of disability scale and (b) type of disability; and if he will also express the totals in terms of rates of disability per 1,000 children under the age of 16 years.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The latest available information is from the 1985 OPCS surveys of disability in Great Britain. The estimated numbers of children in each disability category and the cumulative rates per thousand are shown in the following table.

  Information for Wales by type of disability is not readily available.

  Severity category

  Estimated numbers (thousands)

  Severity category

  Estimated cumulative rates (per thousand aged under 16)

  10

  1

  10

  3

  9

  5

  9–10

  11

  8

  1

  8–10

  14

  7

  2

  7·10

  18

  6

  2

  6·10

  20

  5

  1

  5·10

  23

  4

  2

  4·10

  26

  3

  1

  3·10

  28

  2

  0

  2·10

  28

  1

  2

  1·10

  31

  Total

  18

  Note: The sample of children identified in the survey as having a disability was less than 100 and there is therefore a margin of error attached to these estimates.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total number of children with disabilities in communal establishments in Wales according to(a) disability severity scale and (b) the type of disability; and what is (i) the percentage of all children with disabilities in Wales who are currently living in communal establisments according to the disability severity scale and (ii) the percentage of children with disabilities within communal establishments who have particular types of disability.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The latest available information is from the 1985 OPCS surveys of disability in Great Britain. The estimated numbers of children with disabilities in communal establishments are shown in the table.

  Estimated numbers of children in communal establishments

  Severity category

  Number

  10

  53

  9

  30

  8

  35

  882

  Severity category

  Number

  7

  49

  6

  45

  5

  38

  4

  9

  3

  10

  2

  0

  1

  0

  Total

  269

  The sample of children in Wales identified in the survey as having a disability was too small to permit reliable estimates of the percentages by severity category of disabled children living in communal establishments.

  Information for Wales by type of disability is not readily available.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements have been made for access to proposed conductive education facilities in Birmingham for disabled children in Wales; what discussion has taken place with parents and professionals in Wales concerned about the progress and development of those children; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given today by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the number and ages of children who would benefit through the establishment of a centre for conductive education in the Principality.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  It is for the relevant statutory authorities to assess the needs of their local populations for services. For this purpose, information about conductive education will continue to be disseminated to them as it becomes available.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what assessment he has made(a) of the likely use that might be made by disabled children from Wales of the proposed conductive education project in Birmingham and (b) of whether Welsh requirements might be better met through separate facilities within the Principality;

  (2) what assessment he has made of the benefits that could be achieved for disabled children in Wales through the establishment of a centre for conductive education in the Principality.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  On the question of the conductive education project in Birmingham, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given today by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health.

  The Government believe that conductive education should be accessible in the United Kingdom as part of the range of available therapies. However, conductive education cannot exist without trained conductors. The Government have pledged £5 million over four years to the Peto Institute in Hungary for the building of a new international institute in order that training places will be made available for people from the United Kingdom. The Welsh Office is contributing its share towards this, and in due course trained conductors should become available for work in Wales. Meanwhile, the potential benefits offered by conductive education and other therapies are being kept under review.

  Dentistry
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the number of dental practitioners employed by each health authority in Wales within the community dental service for each of the last five years; and if he will present his data per 1,000 of the population.

  Staff in post (whole-time equivalents) as at 30 September

  Rate per 100,000 population

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  19901

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  19902

  Clwyd

  13·3

  12·9

  13·4

  10·9

  11·7

  3·3

  3·2

  3·3

  2·7

  2·8

  East Dyfed

  10·7

  8·0

  10·6

  8·6

  8·6

  4·7

  3·4

  4·5

  3·6

  3·6

  Gwent

  18·2

  20·7

  18·3

  16·4

  15·3

  4·1

  4·7

  4·1

  3·7

  3·4

  Gwynedd

  12·6

  10·2

  9·6

  8·9

  9·7

  5·4

  4·3

  4·0

  3·7

  4·0

  Mid Glamorgan

  17·7

  19·5

  20·9

  18·9

  18·9

  3·3

  3·6

  3·9

  3·5

  3·5

  Pembrokeshire

  4·6

  5·6

  5·6

  5·6

  5·6

  4·2

  5·0

  5·0

  4·9

  4·9

  Powys

  8·0

  7·9

  7·0

  6·2

  7·0

  7·1

  7·0

  6·1

  5·3

  6·0

  South Glamorgan

  13·8

  9·8

  16·7

  16·8

  16·2

  3·5

  2·5

  4·1

  4·2

  4·0

  West Glamorgan

  11·8

  11·8

  11·8

  11·5

  12·3

  3·2

  3·2

  3·3

  3·2

  3·4

  1 Provisional.

  2 1989 population figures used.

  Homelessness
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish figures showing(a) the total number of homeless households in priority needs, (b) the total number of homeless households with dependent children and (c) homeless households with a pregnant member designated by local authorities in Wales as priority need in each year since 1986.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I will write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Edwards
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many homeless households have applied and been accepted by Monmouth borough council for every year since 1980; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The figures requested are as follows:

  Cases presented1

  Cases accepted2

  1981

  3—

  194

  1982

  3—

  166

  1983

  3—

  182

  1984

  193

  171

  1985

  367

  284

  1986

  408

  258

  1987

  297

  258

  1988

  406

  245

  1989

  204

  157

  1990

  115

  115

  1 Defined as households about which inquiries were completed under Part III of the Housing Act 1985 and includes those who were not found to be homeless or threatened with homelessness.

  2 Defined as households accepted as homeless or threatened with homelessness. Both priority and non priority cases are included.

  3 Cases presented, by district, are not available before 1984.

  Mr. Edwards
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many households were rehoused from the housing waiting list of Monmouth borough council for every year since 1980; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The table sets out the total number housed by Monmouth borough council from its waiting list for each year from 1981–82, the earliest year for
  884
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The available information is given in the table:

  which information is available. Information on allocations resulting from local authority nominations to housing associations is not collected centrally.

  Number

  1981–82

  259

  1982–83

  287

  1983–84

  290

  1984–85

  275

  1985–86

  308

  1986–87

  204

  1987–88

  207

  1988–89

  126

  1989–90

  184

  1990–91

  185

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total number of households in Wales living in(a) bed-and-breakfast accommodation, (b) hostels including women's refuges and (c) short-life housing in each year since 1986.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I will write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many homeless households were accepted for housing by Welsh local authorities in 1990; and if he will show the figures on a basis comparable with those collected by English local authorities.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  A total of 6,670 households were accepted as being homeless by Welsh local authorities in 1990. This figure excludes an estimate of 2,000 households made homeless in Colwyn as a result of the major flooding incident in February 1990, none of whom remain in temporary accommodation.

  Elderly People (Voluntary Organisations)
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will place in the Library a list of those voluntary organisations with specific concern for the elderly which are grant-aided by his Department; and if he will specify the nature of their work, the address of each organisation, and the amount of the grant allocated for the current financial year.
  885
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information is as follows:

  Organisation

  Aims and Objectives

  Grant allocation for the current financial year

  Age Concern England— for activities of Age Concern Wales— 1 Cathedral road, Cardiff

  To further the welfare of the elderly

  £132,500

  Base—British Association for Services for the Elderly

  To support those involved in the care of the elderly

  £15,000

  St. David's hospital, Cowbridge road east, Cardiff

  Help the Aged 298 Gladstone road, Barry

  To improve the quality of life of elderly people in the United Kingdom and overseas by raising and granting funds towards community based projects, housing and overseas aid

  £900

  Alzheimer's Disease Society (ADS) Wales regional office, Tonna hospital Tonna, Neath, West Glamorgan

  To promote an awarenesss of Alzheimer's disease and similar disorders and to secure improved support for carers and sufferers

  £20,000—for regional development officer £17,500 for Newport ADS Disgwylfa Day Centre

  In addition, Government have provided funds for schemes under our Department's initiative on the elderly and the new grant scheme which we launched this year to promote more flexible forms of community care for elderly people and those with physical and/or sensory disabilities. A number of these are run wholly by voluntary organisations.

  Elderly People (NHS Services)
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report a list of the reports issued by the NHS advisory service since 1980 on the elderly in Wales specifying the date each report was issued.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Since 1980, the NHS advisory service has issued the following reports on services provided for the elderly in Wales:

  Powys Health Authority

  August 1982

  Merthyr and Cynon Valley

  July 1983

  Rhymney Valley

  July 1983

  East Glamorgan Unit

  August 1983

  Mid Glamorgan Health Authority

  August 1983

  Ogwr Unit

  August 1983

  Gwynedd Health Authority

  November 1983

  West Glamorgan Health Authority

  December 1983

  Clwyd Health Authority

  December 1983

  East Dyfed/Pembrokeshire Health Authority

  March 1985

  South Glamorgan Health Authority

  September 1985

  Gwent Health Authority

  November 1985

  More recently, the NHS advisory service has been involved in visits inspecting services for the mentally ill in Wales; currently it is involved in visits to services provided for problem drug users.

  Birth Statistics
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish figures showing(a) live births outside marriage in Wales as a percentage of all live births and (b) the proportion of births outside marriage which have been registered by both parents in 1961, 1979, 1989 and 1990.
  886
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information requested is given in the table:

  Live births outside marriage to residents of Wales

  (a) As a percentage of all live births

  (b) Percentage registered by both parents

  1961

  4·1

  1—

  1979

  9·2

  249·3

  1989

  28·2

  69·5

  1990

  29·3

  70·3

  1 Not available.

  2 Estimated.

  Family Incomes
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the estimated number of children in Wales whose families(a) receive incomes below supplementary benefit levels, (b) receive supplementary benefit, (c) receive income above supplementary benefit levels but below 110 per cent. of supplementary benefit, (d) income above 110 per cent. of supplementary benefit levels but below 120 per cent. and (e) income above 120 per cent. of supplementary benefit levels but below 140 per cent.; what were the equivalent figures for 1979, 1981, 1983, 1985, 1987 and 1989; and what was the percentage change in each category between 1979 and 1989.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The table gives the estimated numbers of children in Wales, aged under 16 years, whose families received supplementary benefit or income support. The other information requested is not available centrally.

  Year

  Number

  1979

  57,000

  1981

  95,000

  1983

  110,000

  11986

  131,000

  1987

  123,000

  1989

  118,000

  1990

  125,000

  Percentage change 1979 to 1989 107.

  Source: Annual Statistical Enquiry, Department of Social Security.

  1 Information for 1985 was not produced from this survey.
  887
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the latest figures showing gross weekly household income levels in Wales as per family type and the percentage of households earning(a) less than £60, (b) £60 to £100, (c) £100 to £225, (d) £225 to £325, (e) £325 to £425, and (f) over £425 per week.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Estimates are given in the following tables. The first table provides, for Wales, the average gross weekly household income, by household composition, over the two-year period 1988–89. The second table shows, for the same two-year period, the percentages of all households in Wales in each band of earnings.

  These estimates, derived from the results of the 1988 and 1989 family expenditure surveys, may be subject to errors due to small sample sizes for some categories.

  Composition of household1

  Average gross weekly income (£)

  One adult, no children

  108·57

  Two adults, no children

  240·52

  Three or more adults, no children

  377·45

  One adult, one or more children

  103·81

  Two adults, one or more children

  332·46

  Three or more adults, one or more children

  420·28

  All households

  247·53

  1 Children are defined as those under 16 years of age.

  Average weekly household earnings1

  Percentage of all households2

  Less than £60

  9·0

  £60 and under £100

  6·4

  £100 and under £225

  30·7

  £225 and under £325

  26·4

  £325 and under £425

  11·3

  £425 and over

  16·3

  1 Only wages, salaries and earnings from self employment; other sources of incomes are excluded.

  2 Excluding households with no earned income.

  Source: Family Expenditure Surveys, Central Statistical Office.

  Welsh Assembly
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to the statement of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State of 17 July,Official Report, column 411, on consultation with the people of Wales on the cost of a Welsh Assembly, what is his policy on the holding of a referendum on the matter.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The same evidence on cost was available before the referendum on 1 March 1979, when 956,330 people in Wales voted against a Welsh Assembly and 243,048 in favour.

  Schools Expenditure
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish for each year since 1979 any capital funds that have been granted to local education authoritites in Wales over and above the planned capital allocation for the construction of new primary schools; and if he will separately distinguish denominational from non-denominational schools.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Provision for local authority capital spending is not hypothecated to individual services and it 888
  is for LEAs to decide how much to spend on each service. Information about total capital expenditure on schools by local education authorities was provided in the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) on 10 July 1991.

  Juvenile Offenders
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report in tabular form a list of local authority community homes in Wales which provide secure accommodation for juvenile offenders giving details of the number of beds in each home for(a) boys and (b) girls.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information is as follows:

  Home

  Authority

  Number of beds in secure unit

  Boys/girls

  Llwyncelyn

  West Glamorgan

  2

  Boys

  Silverbrook

  Mid Glamorgan

  3

  Boys or girls

  Ty Mawr

  Gwent

  2

  Boys

  Speech Therapy
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if he will make it his policy to reorganise speech therapy services in schools to ensure that they represent the best interests of children;

  (2) who is responsible for providing speech therapy services in schools; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The provision of speech therapy services in schools is primarily the responsibility of district health authorities. Where speech therapy forms part of the special educational provision specified in a child's statement of special educational need, the local education authority has a duty to ensure that that provision is made. This is usually done through the district health authority, but if for any reason the health authority is unable to provide it, the local education authority must do so.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he intends to take to enhance the status and pay of speech therapists.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Terms and conditions of service for speech therapists are set by the scientific and professional staffs Whitley council. Basic pay rates, as recently agreed within the council, now range from £11,187 to £28,674. A flexible pay and grading structure was recently introduced enabling NHS managers to reflect local patterns of service delivery. Employing authorities also have the ability to supplement basic pay rates by up to 20 per cent. to overcome any particular recruitment and retention difficulties.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the speech therapy units in each of the local education authorities in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information requested is not available centrally.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much was provided for speech therapy for school children in Wales for each of the years 1980 to 1991.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Information regarding expenditure on speech therapy for school children in Wales is
  889
  not collected centrally. However, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to him on Thursday 31 January 1991, which provided expenditure data for speech therapy services generally by health authorities in Wales between 1979–80 and 1989–90. Comparable information for 1990–91 is not yet available.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what response he will be making to the Welsh Consumer Council report "Speech Therapy and Children in Schools", of July 1991;

  (2) if he will meet the Welsh Consumer Council to discuss their publication on speech therapy.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The report of the Welsh Consumer Council raises a number of issues which require careful consideration. My right hon. Friend and I will consider what action is warranted in the light of that detailed consideration.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will fund an all-Wales convention and discuss policy on speech therapy and children in the schools of Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  We have no plans to do so.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many BSE carcases have been(a) incinerated and (b) buried in 1991 in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Up to 31 May 1991, 855 carcases were incinerated and there were no burials.

  NHS Reform
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if he will make it his policy that each of the present district health authorities in Wales should continue in existence following the Government's national health service reforms;

  (2) what are his proposals in respect of the powers, responsibilities to be exercised by, and the geographical areas to be covered by each health authority in Wales subsequent to the implementation of his national health service reforms.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Powers, responsibilities and geographical areas of health authorities in Wales are subject to statutory provision. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State keeps under review the appropriateness of the areas of authorities.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if he will list the specific bodies which will be the purchasers of health services for the area covered by each of the present district health authorities in Wales, following his national health service reforms;

  (2) if he will list the bodies which will be the purchasing authorities for health services in Wales under the Government's reform of the national health service in respect of the separation of the roles of purchaser and provider.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  District health authorities are purchasing authorities for each of their areas. They are listed as follows:890

  Clwyd

  East Dyfed

  Gwent

  Gwynedd

  Mid Glamorgan

  Pembrokeshire

  Powys

  South Glamorgan

  West Glamorgan

  There are, in addition, seven GP fund-holding practices in Wales which can purchase services directly for their patients. They comprise:

  Dr. Shah and partners, Hengoed

  Drs. James, Jones and partners, Pontypridd

  Dr. Jerrett and partners, Pontyclun

  Dr. Parry and partners, Porthcawl

  Drs. Morgan, Edwards and partners, Cardiff

  Dr. Jenkins and partners, Swansea

  Dr. Brackwell and partners, Rhyl

  Pembrokeshire district health authority has made an application to become an NHS trust. If this application is approved, it will be necessary to review the purchasing arrangements for that part of Wales.

  Young People (Remand)
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy to ensure that young people on remand from courts in Wales are dealt with in such a way as to maximise public protection and minimise serious reoffending while ensuring cost-effectiveness.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The responsibility for dealing with young people on remand rests with the local authorities, except where they are bailed or are remanded to prison custody. Such remands to prison are to be ended under the provisions of the Criminal Justice Act when sufficient local authority secure accommodation has been provided. Our officials have completed a review of secure care policy in Wales, including both secure accommodation and its community-based alternatives. We will be publishing this for consultation shortly.

  Learning Difficulties
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) further to his answer of 4 July,Official Report, column 191, if he will explain why no information is available for Wales on the number of adults with learning difficulties undertaking employment training;

  (2) further to his answer of 5 July, Official Report, columns 231–32, if he will explain why the information requested is not available.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Figures are collected on the number of people with disabilities in training, but these figures do not identify specific types of disability. People with learning difficulties are included in total figures for people with disabilities.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his answer of 5 July,Official Report, columns 231–32, if he will indicate what steps he is now taking to ensure adequate monitoring of the provision for people with learning difficulties within employment schemes in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Each training and enterprise council (TEC) is required to set out in its corporate and business plans how it intends to meet the needs of people with disabilities. These plans are subject to the approval of myself and the Secretary of State for Employment.
  891
  Specific contractual requirements common to all TECs include providing appropriate training to people with special training needs, including those with learning difficulties. The Department of Employment has produced guidance on how to plan for and deliver training to meet those needs.

  TECs' performance against their plans will be regularly monitored by the Department of Employment. In addition, the Training Standards Advisory Service will be appraising the quality of training offered by TECs including provision for people with learning difficulties.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his answer, what proportion of the package referred to in his answer of 2 July,Official Report, column 101, will be applied (a) to provision in Wales and (b) to people with learning difficulties in Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to him by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment earlier today.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) further to his answer of 4 July,Official Report, column 191, if he will now set targets for provision for people with learning difficulties in Wales;

  (2) further to his answer of 5 July, Official Report, columns 231–32, if he will set targets for the current year and future years in terms of provision for young people and adults with learning difficulties in Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  We have no plans to set such targets. The Government remain committed to the requirements on special training needs laid down in their agreements with training and enterprise councils.

  Local authority dwellings let to new tenants 1985–86 to 1990–91

  District

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  Aberconwy

  227

  175

  188

  155

  157

  192

  Alyn and Deeside

  297

  301

  296

  248

  239

  224

  Arfor

  256

  253

  301

  271

  254

  193

  Blaenau Gwent

  581

  567

  613

  640

  422

  524

  Brecknock

  156

  179

  194

  163

  176

  152

  Cardiff

  1,168

  695

  783

  1,024

  880

  870

  Carmarthen

  222

  202

  221

  174

  145

  146

  Ceredigion

  203

  243

  222

  245

  174

  164

  Colwyn

  219

  235

  168

  170

  137

  147

  Cynon Valley

  367

  426

  360

  305

  331

  287

  Delyn

  270

  269

  235

  266

  242

  210

  Dinefwr

  140

  176

  174

  100

  116

  123

  Dwyfor

  79

  75

  68

  76

  72

  52

  Glyndwr

  142

  198

  221

  162

  182

  140

  Islwyn

  402

  267

  333

  324

  241

  259

  Llanelli

  402

  395

  392

  353

  396

  311

  Lliw Valley

  295

  363

  308

  296

  270

  323

  Meirionnydd

  129

  132

  125

  105

  104

  93

  Merthyr Tydfil

  413

  391

  425

  535

  482

  449

  Monmouth

  344

  238

  215

  171

  213

  218

  Montgomeryshire

  400

  270

  232

  188

  216

  155

  Neath

  236

  278

  232

  270

  190

  353

  Newport

  887

  753

  976

  847

  713

  624

  Ogwr

  696

  625

  509

  508

  451

  382

  Port Talbot

  315

  276

  413

  233

  234

  315

  Preseli Pembrokeshire

  275

  281

  242

  290

  231

  211

  Radnorshire

  127

  76

  80

  75

  69

  75

  Rhondda

  221

  453

  397

  176

  427

  462

  Rhuddlan

  145

  184

  171

  113

  142

  109

  Rymney Valley

  609

  538

  533

  629

  446

  463

  South Pembrokeshire

  187

  155

  141

  255

  99

  96

  Swansea

  820

  550

  779

  1,112

  778

  871

  Taff-Ely

  432

  389

  399

  245

  230

  332

  Torfaen

  499

  1,115

  927

  824

  700

  705

  Vale of Glamorgan

  392

  390

  315

  374

  291

  319

  Wrexham Maelor

  981

  943

  826

  781

  735

  753

  892
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his answer of 4 July,Official Report, column 191, if he will make it his policy to ensure that information on the number of adults with learning difficulties undertaking employment training is collected in future with regard to Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  We have no plans to identify separately information on people with learning difficulties among those with other special training needs.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his answer of 2 July,Official Report, column 101, for each training and enterprise council, how each such TEC in Wales has set out its intentions in regard to people with special needs in general and people with learning difficulties in particular in its corporate plan.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment earlier today.

  Tenancies
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many new tenancies were started and how many old tenancies were ended in 1990–91 in each local authority area in Wales; and what were the equivalent figures for each of the past five years.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  New tenancies started are given in the following table for local authority dwellings. Information on cessations is not collected centrally.
  893

  District

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  Ynys Mon

  362

  347

  365

  368

  309

  228

  Wales

  13,896

  13,403

  13,379

  13,071

  11,494

  11,530

  Advertising
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will set out his Department's expenditure for 1990–91, and the previous five years, on(a) press advertising, (b) television advertising and (c) other advertising and promotions; and state (i) the budget allocation for each of those headings and (ii) his best available projection of outturn under each heading.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I will write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session, and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Secure Accommodation
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the alternatives to secure accommodation he is currently considering in respect of young people on remand.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Our review of secure care policy in Wales will be published shortly.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what is currently(a) the average cost, (b) the highest cost and (c) the lowest cost per week of holding a young person on remand in secure accommodation in Wales;

  (2) what is currently (a) the average cost, (b) the highest cost and (c) the lowest cost per week of holding a young person from Wales on remand in secure accommodation when accommodation outside Wales has to be used.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I will write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  South Glamorgan Health Authority
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what response he has made to the views of(a) the Vale of Glamorgan community health council and (b) South Glamorgan health authority in regard to the loss of £6 million from the future resource allocation to the South Glamorgan health authority.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The new system of weighted compensation, which is based on the resident population 894
  of a health authority's area and which takes into account such factors as age structure morbidity is a much fairer system than the previous system based on service provision.

  It is being introduced over a period of time to allow health authorities to adjust. South Glamorgan hospitals will be able to make contracts to provide health care with other health authorities in Wales.

  The health authority's response to the consultation document, along with those from other Welsh DHAs, was taken fully into consideration when deciding on a weighted capitation formula for Wales. No communication has been received from the Vale of Glamorgan community health council on the subject.

  Ambulance Services
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his answer of 2 May,Official Report, column 280, regarding ambulance services in Wales, if he will give an undertaking that his proposals will not be finalised and no action taken to change arrangements for the ambulance services without (a) an adequate period of open public consultation and (b) seeking the views of hon. Members.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I am happy to repeat my earlier assurances that there will be widespread consultation on the consultants' recommendations before any decisions are made on possible changes to the structure and organisation of patient transport services in Wales.

  Consultation will begin shortly and three months will be set aside for the submission of comments. The views of right hon. and hon. Members in Wales will be invited along with those of other interests.

  Carers
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what policy initiatives he proposes to assist carers;

  (2) what measures he intends to introduce to increase respite care.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  We have made clear in all our policy and practice guidance the high priority which should be given to the support of carers and the development of respite care, which can benefit significantly both those in need of care and their families.

  It is for local and health authorities to decide what services should be provided to meet the assessed needs of their local populations. They are expected to address these needs in county plans produced under the all-Wales mental illness and mental handicap strategies, in social care plans and in local strategies for health.

  In support of these programmes, grants are available from the Welsh Office under certain schemes which are unique to Wales—the mental handicap and mental illness strategies. A new scheme to promote the development of more flexible forms of community care for elderly people and for people with physical or sensory disabilities has also been introduced. We are also continuing to support schemes under our earlier initiative for the elderly.
  895
  Planned expenditure on these programmes in 1991–92 is nearly £43 million compared with some £32 million last year.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the respite care locations in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  This information is not held centrally.

  Mental Handicap
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how he intends to improve the quality of service to people living both in hospitals and the community who suffer mental handicap.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The all-Wales mental handicap strategy seeks to do precisely this, as will our proposals for its future development which we intend to publish shortly.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list his proposed changes to the all-Wales strategy for people with a mental handicap; if he will indicate the period for comment on those proposals; and if he will give an assurance that he will continue to provide ring; fenced funding for the strategy.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  We intend to publish our proposals shortly, including the timetable for comments.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the organisations and voluntary bodies he has consulted in anticipation of the outcome of his review of the all-Wales strategy for mental handicap.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my reply in the Library of the House.

  (a) below 20 hectares

  1990

  1989

  1988

  1987

  1986

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Gwynedd

  87

  48·9

  87

  48·9

  87

  49·2

  88

  49·4

  88

  49·4

  Clwyd

  73

  43·7

  73

  42·7

  89

  49·4

  78

  45·3

  85

  48·3

  Powys

  115

  49·6

  123

  51·3

  124

  51·2

  126

  51·6

  127

  51·8

  Dyfed

  71

  40·6

  71

  40·6

  71

  40·6

  70

  40·2

  71

  40·6

  Gwent

  43

  40·6

  42

  39·3

  48

  42·5

  48

  42·5

  50

  43·5

  West Glamorgan

  2

  66·7

  2

  66·7

  2

  66·7

  2

  66·7

  2

  66·7

  Mid Glamorgan

  9

  45·0

  9

  45·0

  9

  45·0

  9

  45·0

  12

  52·2

  South Glamorgan

  15

  39·5

  16

  41·0

  19

  43·2

  22

  48·9

  22

  48·9

  Wales

  415

  423

  449

  443

  457

  (b) between 20–40 hectares

  1990

  1989

  1988

  1987

  1986

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Gwynedd

  71

  39·9

  71

  39·9

  70

  39·5

  70

  39·3

  70

  39·3

  Clwyd

  76

  45·5

  81

  47·4

  75

  41·7

  81

  47·1

  77

  43·8

  Powys

  104

  44·8

  104

  43·3

  105

  43·4

  105

  43·0

  106

  43·3

  Dyfed

  86

  49·1

  86

  49·1

  86

  49·1

  86

  49·4

  86

  49·1

  Gwent

  54

  50·9

  56

  52·3

  56

  49·6

  56

  49·6

  55

  47·8

  West Glamorgan

  1

  33·3

  1

  33·3

  1

  33·3

  1

  33·3

  1

  33·3

  Mid Glamorgan

  7

  35·0

  7

  35·0

  7

  35·0

  7

  350

  7

  30·4

  South Glamorgan

  19

  50·0

  19

  48·7

  21

  47·7

  19

  42·2

  19

  42·2

  Wales

  418

  425

  421

  425

  421

  Diet
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the impact on children's health in Wales of the effect of low income and low benefit levels on the cash available to provide a sound and nutritious diet.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The Health Promotion Authority for Wales is currently engaged in a pilot project which seeks to address the general issue of cost and availability of healthy dietary options. A preliminary report on the project will be available in April 1992.

  Medical Negligence
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of(a) the cost of action in respect of medical negligence in Wales, (b) the impact of delay in dealing with such claims on patients and families in Wales and (c) steps that could be taken to deal more simply and more effectively with such claims in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  As regards the costs arising from medical negligence litigation, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the replies that I gave him on 17 June and the letter that I subsequently sent him on 16 July.

  Information on the impact of possible delays in litigation on plaintiffs is not available centrally.

  Smallholdings
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the number of smallholdings provided by each local authority in Wales in April 1991 and at the same date on each of the previous five years, indicating in each case the number and percentage(a) below 20 hectares, (b) between 20 and 40 hectares and (c) in excess of 40 hectares.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The figures for 1991 are not available. Statistics for the previous five years collated at 31 March are given in the tables.
  897

  (c) in excess of 40 hectares

  1990

  1989

  1988

  1987

  1986

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Number

  Per cent.

  Gwynedd

  20

  11·2

  20

  11·2

  20

  11·3

  20

  11·2

  20

  11·2

  Clwyd

  18

  10·8

  17

  9·9

  16

  8·9

  13

  7·6

  14

  8·0

  Powys

  13

  5·6

  13

  5·4

  13

  5·4

  13

  5·3

  12

  4·9

  Dyfed

  18

  10·3

  18

  10·3

  18

  10·3

  18

  10·3

  18

  10·3

  Gwent

  9

  8·5

  9

  8·4

  9

  8·0

  9

  8·0

  10

  8·7

  West Glamorgan

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Mid Glamorgan

  4

  20·0

  4

  20·0

  4

  20·0

  4

  20·0

  4

  17·4

  South Glamorgan

  4

  10·5

  4

  10·3

  4

  9·1

  4

  8·9

  4

  8·9

  Wales

  86

  85

  84

  81

  82

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of(a) the area of land available as smallholdings in Wales in the year 1990–91, (b) the increase and decrease compared with the previous year and (c) the adequacy of this land to meet the interests of agriculture in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The information for 1990–91 is not yet available. The total area of land provided by local authorities for smallholdings at 31 March 1990 was 20,741 hectares. This was a decrease of 2·9 per cent. on the previous year. The availability of this land provides worthwhile opportunities for new entrants to agriculture.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the number of tenants of local authority smallholdings(a) in Wales and (b) in each local authority area at 31 March and at the same date for each of the past five years.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The information for 1990–91 is not yet available. The information as at 31 March for the previous five years is contained in the annual report to Parliament on Smallholdings in Wales (table 3), a copy of which is in the Library.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the areas of land held for smallholding by each local authority in Wales on 1 April, or the nearest convenient date, and the same date for each of the past five years.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The information for 1990–91 is not yet available. The information as at 31 March for the previous five years is contained in the annual report to Parliament on Smallholdings in Wales (table 1), a copy of which is in the Library.

  Care Facilities
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) whether he will make it his policy that any company intending to open hospital or other care facilities in Wales shall have to show that it is not owned or controlled by individuals or corporate bodies which have previously(a) provided such facilities at a sub-standard level or (b) been involved in actions detrimental to public health; and if he will make it his policy to monitor such links even after the establishment of any such facilities;

  (2) whether he will make it his policy to monitor the share ownership in any company operating hospital or care facilities in Wales in order to ensure that no major individual or corporate shareholder has a record of being directly or indirectly involved in the provision of
  898
  sub-standard facilities in the field of health or care nor a record of environmental pollution nor any other record of failure or neglect in regard to public health.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  In addition to the arrangements for the statutory registration and inspection of nursing and residential care homes, contracts for health services and care packages will include quality specifications. It will be for purchasing authorities to insist upon and monitor standards. It will not be necessary for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to monitor share ownership as part of ensuring high quality services.

  Environmental pollution and public health are separate matters which are monitored by the appropriate statutory authorities.

  Countryside Council for Wales
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to publish the final version of the statement of policy for the Countryside Council for Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  I have placed the final version of the statement of policy in the Libraries of both Houses and made copies available to those organisations who commented on the statement while in draft form. I am grateful for the useful comments received which have been carefully considered. The statement has also been discussed with the council. Copies of the council's management statement have also been placed in both Libraries.

HEALTH

  GPs (Prescription Budgets)
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the number and percentage of general practitioners on a spending profile outside their indicated prescription budget at the end of May; and how this percentage varies between health regions.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Asthma
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish a table showing the expenditure per head in each national health service region for the latest available period using prescribing analyses and costs data for general practitioner prescribed drug treatment of asthma and related conditions.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The information requested is shown in the table.
  899

  Cost (thousands) £

  List size

  Cost per head £

  Northern RHA

  4,376,934

  3,179,270

  1·38

  Yorkshire RHA

  4,626,018

  3,783,074

  1·22

  Trent RHA

  5,989,421

  4,878,399

  1·23

  East Anglia RHA

  2,432,996

  2,081,579

  1·17

  North West Thames RHA

  3,787,033

  4,111,169

  0·92

  North East Thames RHA

  3,922,551

  4,278,.439

  0·92

  South East Thames RHA

  3,926,892

  4,046,572

  0·97

  South West Thames RHA

  3,105,008

  3,234,806

  0·96

  Wessex RHA

  3,232,522

  3,011,032

  1·07

  Oxford RHA

  3,023,177

  2,665,838

  1·13

  South Western RHA

  4,230,747

  3,590,948

  1·18

  West Midlands RHA

  7,190,335

  5,472,767

  1·31

  Mersey RHA

  3,223,910

  2,513,942

  1·28

  North Western RHA

  5,891,977

  4,154,172

  1·42

  Note: For PACT purposes every FHSA within each region is permanently allocated to one of three quarterly processing cycles. The information provided is based on data relating to the following PACT periods:

  January 1991 to March 1991

  February 1991 to April 1991

  March 1991 to May 1991

  Water Contamination
  Mr. Harry Greenway
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the delay in notifying consumers in Ealing, Northolt and Hanwell of the contamination of their water supplies.

  Mr. Baldry
  I have been asked to reply.

  I refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside on 22 July, Official Report, column 789. The drinking water inspectorate has already started a thorough investigation of the incident. This will cover the action taken by the company to notify its consumers.

  Severely Disabled People
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what action he is instigating to take into account the needs of present and future generations of severely physically disabled people in long-term national health service and regional and district authority plans.

  Mr. Dorrell
  It is the responsibility of health authorities to assess the health needs of their local population including severely physically disabled people and to obtain appropriate services for them. The consultative document, "The Health of the Nation", sets out the Government's proposals for the development of a health strategy for England, including suggested targets for some services of particular relevance for people with severe physical disabilities. We have also appointed an advisory group on rehabilitation to advise us on the development of NHS rehabilitation services.

  Optical Appliances (Vouchers)
  Mrs. Wise
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will increase the value of vouchers for optical appliances under the national health service, to reflect the increase in VAT to 17·5 per cent.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) on 24 July.

  Spectacles (Vouchers)
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what has been the increase in the value of vouchers for glasses for each year since their introduction in(a) cash and (b) real terms.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Increases in voucher values, in cash and real terms, have varied in each year since vouchers were introduced, depending on the voucher band. In general we have aimed to make the largest increases in those voucher bands where we perceived there to be the greatest need. The following table shows the range of percentage increases for each year except 1987 when voucher values were not increased.

  Voucher values 1986 to 1991

  Date

  Cash value increase per cent.

  1Reat value increase per cent.

  1 April 1988

  8·77 to 28·79

  -1·48 to +16·82

  1 September 1988

  4·70 to 5·88

  1 April 1989

  3·70 to 10·48

  -2·51 to +3·86

  1 April 1990

  2·04 to 6·10

  -4·97 to -1·53

  1 April 1991

  2·00 to 7·22

  -4·67 to +0·02

  1 Calculated using the GDP deflator.

  Guy's Hospital
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions the NHS management executive has had with the Guy's NHS trust on its future financial viability.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  Current discussions with the Guy's and Lewisham national health service trust have focused on the financial strategy contained in its business plan. As is well known, the trust faces some financial problems in the current year, but these do not undermine its financial viability and are being effectively dealt with by its management.

  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information the NHS management executive has received from Guy's hospital on its plan to replace its director of finance.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  Appointments, such as the director of finance, are a matter for trust boards and the national
  901
  health service management executive would not normally expect to be involved in new appointments or replacements. In this case, the NHSME was informed of the change that the trust board had decided to make.

  NHS Patients
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many patients were treated in NHS hospitals in each year since 1970.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information requested is given in the table.

  Hospital treatments

  (thousands)

  Year

  In-patient treatments

  day cases

  Outpatient treatments

  Discharges and deaths

  1970

  5,011

  n/a

  32,355

  1971

  5,170

  n/a

  33,129

  1972

  5,222

  376

  33,243

  1973

  5,132

  409

  33,317

  1974

  5,172

  451

  33,352

  1975

  4,976

  421

  30,947

  1976

  6,255

  481

  32,396

  1977

  5,345

  536

  33,282

  1978

  5,370

  562

  33,950

  1979

  5,400

  592

  34,100

  1980

  5,670

  671

  35,243

  1981

  5,760

  714

  35,571

  1982

  5,720

  706

  35,651

  1983

  6,019

  813

  36,520

  1984

  6,178

  903

  37,043

  1985

  6,354

  963

  37,440

  1986

  6,414

  1,050

  37,728

  1987–88

  6,619

  881

  36,874

  1988–89

  6,586

  1,016

  36,146

  1988–89

  7,335*

  1,016

  36,146

  1989–90

  7,447

  1,163

  36,336

  * From 1988–89 onwards, in-patient activity has been measured in terms of Finished Consultant Episodes, including figures for well babies being cared for in hospital. Previous statistics did not count these babies.

  District Health Authorities
  Mr. Lawrence
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of the expenditure of each district health authority is devoted to administration; and what are the comparable figures for each year since 1978–79.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Tables of percentage figures showing expenditure on headquarters administration as a proportion of total expenditure, as reported in the annual accounts of each regional and district health authority in England, for the years requested since the establishment of district health authorities on 1 April 1982, have been placed in the Library. Figures for each special health authority for the London postgraduate teaching hospitals, which cannot be attributed to particular regions, are also included for completeness. Equivalent information for 1990–91 will be available in the autumn.

  Regions are managed in an integrated way. It would be misleading to interpret the figures for particular districts in isolation, or to regard regional health authorities' data as distinct from that for the districts they manage. The division of functions between the RHA and districts and between districts varies from region to region and consequently the region totals provide a more valid picture.
  902
  Because of the changes in the structure of the NHS on 1 April 1982, establishment of district health authorities, and on 1 April 1985—separation of family practitioner committees from districts—information on which to base fully comparable data or an analysis to districts for 1978–79 is not held centrally. However, in 1978–79 expenditure on headquarters administration by the health authorities then broadly equivalent to those in the table represented 5·07 per cent. of their total current and capital expenditure.

  NHS Charges
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if his Department will estimate the cost of abolishing national health service charges and transferring the net burden to national insurance; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what would be the cost of extending exemption from national health service charges to persons in receipt of housing benefit; and if he will do so;

  (3) what would be the cost of extending exemption from national health service charges to all those eligible for 80 per cent. community charge relief; and if he will make it his policy to do so;

  (4) what would be the cost of extending exemption from national health service charges to all pensioners; and if he will do so;

  (5) what would be the cost of extending exemption from national health service charges to all aged under 19 years who remain in full-time education; and if he will make it his policy to do so;

  (6) what would be the cost of extending exemption from national health service charges to all those on long-term sickness or in receipt of invalidity benefit; and if he will make it his policy to do so.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if his Department will consider a review of its system of benefits which assist payment of national health service charges for treatment with a view to greater simplification and accessibility; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) on 6 June at columns 300–01.

  As that reply made clear, the review of the administration of the low income scheme will be wide ranging. The procedures for claiming help under the scheme will be an important part of the review.

  Benzodiazepines
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many prescriptions were dispensed by community pharmacists for each benzodiazepine in 1990.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The information requested is as follows:

  Benzodiazepines—England 1990

  Drug group

  Prescriptions £ millions

  Temazepam

  5·4

  Nitrazepam

  3·1

  Diazepam

  2·7

  903

  Drug group

  Prescriptions £ millions

  Triazolam

  1·4

  Lorazepam

  1·2

  Chlordiazepoxide

  0·5

  Oxazepam

  0·3

  Lormetazepam

  0·1

  Clonazepam

  0·1

  Clobazam

  0·05

  Total

  14·85

  These figures are based on the number of prescriptions in England which were dispensed by community pharmacists.

  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he will bring forward proposals to ban the prescription of lorazepam;

  (2) what evidence he has on the link between use of the tranquilliser lorazepam and the onset of symptoms of paranoia.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The current advice from the Committee on Safety of Medicines is that lorazepam and other licensed benzodiazepine tranquillisers have a place in the short-term treatment of anxiety if used with appropriate care. Behavioural disorders are known to occur rarely with lorazepam and difficulty in withdrawal is also well documented. Prescribers have been made aware of the correct use of these compounds and the problems which can occur if not used in accordance with the CSM's recommendations. There are no plans to ban lorazepam.

  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will state, in relating to the newly opened National Addiction Centre,(a) how many staff will work on problems in relation to benzodiazepines, (b) what work they will carry out on benzodiazepine drugs, (c) how many people addicted to benzodiazepine will be treated at the centre and (d) what finance is being provided for treatment of benzodiazepine addiction and research into benzodiazepines at the centre.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information is not collected centrally. The hon. Member may wish to contact Mr. T. Owen, chairman of Bethlem and Maudsley special health authority, for details.

  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will bring forward proposals to tighten the control on the administration of benzodiazephines and other tranquillisers to children in care in the near future.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Benzodiazepines and other tranquillisers can be supplied only on a doctor's prescription and used in accordance with the doctor's instructions. Other than in the case of patients detained under the Mental Health Act 1983 medical treatment can be given only with the consent of the patient. If a child is not of sufficient understanding to give consent, the consent of the child's parent, or local authority if the child is in care, is required, except in an emergency where immediate treatment is, in the opinion of a medical practitioner, needed to protect the child's life or health.

  Advice on this is confirmed in volume 4 in the Children Act guidance and regulations series published today.

  Information (Confidentiality)
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when the draft guidance on the confidentiality of personal health information in the NHS will be(a) issued for consultation and (b) completed.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The draft guidance will be issued soon. The timetable for completion of substantive guidance will depend upon the comments received.

  Intensive Therapy Units
  Sir Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the average number of fully funded beds in intensive therapy units; and if he will give the equivalent figure for 1986.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Information in the form requested is not held centrally.

  Organ Transplants
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he has received any requests for the implementation of a system of recording on a national register an agreement for organ donation for transplantation purposes in the event of sudden death.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We have received a number of suggestions proposing a national computerised register of potential organ donors. Evidence from trial projects so far do not support the case for the high expenditure necessary.

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many organs have been donated for transplantation purposes in the North West regional health authority area during each of the last five years.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The number of organs donated in the North Western regional health authority as reported to the United Kingdom transplant support service is as follows:

  Kidney

  Heart

  Heart/Lung

  Lung

  Liver

  1986

  86

  11

  2

  0

  9

  1987

  81

  17

  3

  0

  16

  1988

  120

  17

  9

  0

  23

  1989

  136

  21

  6

  0

  24

  1990

  148

  24

  6

  6

  32

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will consider introducing legislation for the implementation of an opt-out system to increase the number of organs for transplantation purposes.

  Mr. Dorrell
  No.

  Sir Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what studies he has undertaken of the system of retrieving human organs for transplant operated in Belgian intensive therapy units; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  None.

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions he has had with the medical profession regarding the introduction of new legislation to increase the number of organs available for transplantation.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The conference of the medical royal colleges working party, which in 1987 looked into the
  905
  supply of donor organs for transplantation, recommended that organ donation could best be increased by introducing procedures for identifying and referring protential donors. The working party believed that this would be more effective than the introduction of legislation. We have accepted that recommendation.

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he has received any requests for a note to be made on hospital admissions records of an individual's willingness to donate organs for transplantation in the event of death while in hospital.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The content of the hospital admission forms is a matter for individual authorities to decide.

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the cost of kidney dialysis treatment for an individual patient over the course of one year; and what is the cost of carrying out a kidney transplant operation together with after-care costs for an individual patient.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The cost of organ transplantation varies between units and according to the complexity of the case. The figure of around £10,000 for a kidney transplant represents the latest estimate of a likely cost at 1989–90 prices. Information is not collected centrally on the annual cost of the drug regime required to sustain organ transplants.

  We hold no reliable information on the costs of maintaining dialysis patients, but according to a report published today by the Office of Health Economics the annual cost of dialysis is between £11,000 and £18,000.

  Pharmaceutical Prices
  Mr. Michael Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what has been the level of pharmaceutical price increases over the last 12 months.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry has published figures which show pharmaceutical companies prices rising by 1.9 per cent. in 1989 and 2.5 per cent. in 1990.

  Mr. Michael Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what changes there have been in the basic elements of the pharmaceutical price regulation scheme in the past 12 months.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  None. The PPRS continues to be operated on the basis of the 1986 agreement.

  GP Contract
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps are taken by family health services authorities to monitor the number of night visits by general practitioners.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Family health service authorities collect information on night visit fee claims as part of their managerial responsibility to monitor the general practitioner's contract.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether there has been any change in the extent of night visits and out-of-hours work by general practitioners since the introduction of the new general practitioner contract;
  906
  (2) whether there have been any changes in the use by general practitioners of deputising services since the introduction of the new general practitioner contract.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  We are currently conducting a bi-annual survey to collect data on the number of general practitioners who have consent to use a deputising service and the number of night visits made and by whom. The results should be available by the end of October.

  Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority
  Mr. Amess
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the work of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority does not assume its full powers until 1 August 1991. The authority has made good progress in undertaking the preparatory work.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance he will give to the licensing authority, established under the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act, about the proposed destruction of fertilised embryos currently held in storage facilities.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Nursing Homes
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what action he is taking to reverse the trend of patients and their families using the private sector and to establish more national health service nursing homes based on three DSS pilot schemes.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Health authorities are expected to ensure that a range of services are available for elderly people, including long-term care. It is for each health authority to decide the level and type of provision taking account of local needs and priorities. Within this our policy is to promote choice and the development of a flourishing independent sector alongside good quality public services.

  Patients Charter
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list those organisations and individuals who will be consulted before the publication of the patients charter; what form the consultation will take; and what is the timetable.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Our proposals for the charter for patients will be discussed with key members of the professions, NHS management and consumer representative bodies over the next few weeks before publication in early autumn.

  Lung Cancer
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will set out the number of deaths per 1,000 in Devon and Cornwall caused by lung cancer; and what is the national average.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information is set out in the table.
  907

  Mortality rates per 1,000 population from malignant neoplasms of the trachea, bronchus and lung (ICD 162), for:

  (1) England, Wales and Elsewhere; (2) Cornwall; and (3) Devon, 1990

  Area

  Rate per 1,000 population

  England, Wales and Elsewhere1

  0·68

  Cornwall

  0·62

  Devon

  0·63

  1Elsewhere refers to people who are not normally resident in England and Wales, but who die there.

  Hen Slaughter
  Mr. Andrew Welsh
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what evidence he has of the incidence of food poisoning in humans since the policy of slaughtering hens was introduced; and what evidence he has of correlation between these figures.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The reported incidence of salmonellosis in humans is regularly provided in the Public Health Laboratory Service/state veterinary service update on salmonella infection. Copies of the July 1991 edition are in the Library.

  A range of factors affect the reported incidence of human salmonellosis and no one factor can be singled out. Action therefore needs to be taken at all points in he food chain from farm to consumer. The figures for the first six months of this year are encouraging in showing a reduction compared with the same period in 1990, but it is premature to assess the full effects of the flock slaughter policy in reducing the risks of human infections.

  Tobacco Products
  Mr. Aspinwall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received concerning the new regulations on the labelling of cigarette products, whereby United Kingdom manufacturers are required to print warnings on cigarette packs larger than those required of importers.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Supra-regional Services
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, further to the reply given to the hon. Member for Eastleigh on 5 March,Official Report, column 113, if he will make available a summary of the funding and levels of activity agreed for 1991–92 with centres designated to provide supra-regional services.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  A summary of this information has been placed in the Library as an addendum to the document "Supra regional services 1991–92: announcement by the Secretary of State for Health".

  Breakspeare Hospital
  Mr. Michael Brown
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement regarding the closure of the Breakspeare hospital, Hertfordshire.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Di Hydrase Testosterone
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what evaluation has been made of Di Hydrase Testosterone as a medicine for diseased prostates.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Section 118 of the Medicines Act 1968 precludes the disclosure of information relating to product licence applications of their subsequent progress through the licencsing system.

  Before any new drug can be licensed in the United Kingdom it is evaluated in the first instance by the Committee on Safety of Medicines for its safety, efficacy and quality for the purposes set out in the product licence application.

  AIDS
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that resources for AIDS are targeted effectively and that full use is made of AIDS care education and training;

  (2) what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that the £140 million AIDS allocation is being used efficiently and appropriately to meet current needs.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Department monitors the use of ring-fenced money allocated to regional health authorities through the AIDS (Control) Act reports.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what action he intends to take to ensure there are no delays in the payment of NHS AIDS money to the voluntary sector; and what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the current arrangements.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Department allocated £137·3 million of ring-fenced AIDS money in 1991–92 to regions, which in turn allocate them to their districts. In addition, we also allocated £1·9 million to the voluntary sector in 1991–92 and £10·2 million through the AIDS support grant scheme to local authorities. Mechanisms for payment and for decisions about grant-giving and contracts are established locally, according to local circumstances and need.

  Children's Homes
  Mr. Tredinnick
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he will bring forward his detailed guidance under the Children Act 1989 regulations covering the management of residential children's homes.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  We have today published a compilation of guidance on residential care as volume 4 in the Children Act 1989 series. A copy will be placed in the Library.

  This will apply to all local authority, voluntary and private children's homes, and some small boarding schools. They will be required to maintain a written statement of their purpose; provide proper standards of accommodation and staffing; prohibit corporal punishment; and keep detailed records. Inspection of children's homes will be expected normally to be carried out by local authorities' arms-length inspection units.

  The new volume also draws together guidance and regulations previously published on placing children in homes; contact with parents; review of children's needs and circumstances; complaints procedures; independent visitors; and after-care.
  909
  The Children Act 1989 comes into force on 14 October. This follow-up package will also apply from then. Together, these provisions create a new framework for looking after children in homes which is comprehensive and forward looking and keeps the welfare of children at centre stage.

  Medical Negligence
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of(a) the cost of action in respect of medical negligence, (b) the impact of delay in dealing with such claims on patients and families and (c) steps that could be taken to deal more simply and more effectively with such claims.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We have no central intelligence on the costs incurred by health authorities in dealing with negligence claims or of the impact of possible delays in litigation on plaintiffs.

  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State drew attention earlier this year to improvements in the litigation process being implemented as a result of the civil justice review and also undertook to consider the possibility of a system of arbitration for medical negligence. The Department will invite views on a consultation document to be published shortly.

  RU486
  Mr. Amos
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to his reply of 18 July,Official Report, column 287, on what date his Department officially announced that RU486 was to receive a product licence in the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Department does not make immediate announcements about the issue of product licences. The licence for RU486 (Mifegyne) was granted to Roussel on 1 July. The company announced the following day that it had received a product licence.

  Formal notification of decisions to grant product licences is via the London, Edinburgh and Belfast Gazettes. In the case of RU 486 (Mifegyne), publication will be at the end of August.

  Mr. Amos
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what research, other than clinical trials, has been carried out on the safety aspects of the drug RU486.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  As for all new drugs, safety testing was undertaken according to the requirements of directive 75/318 EEC. The Committee on Safety of Medicines was fully reassured as to the safety of RU486 from the results of these tests.

  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will give details of the new responsibilities in regard to the licensing of new drugs undertaken by the Medicines Control Agency since it was given independent status.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Medicines Control Agency is an executive agency of the Department of Health operating within a published policy and resources framework document.

  The chief executive of this agency is responsible and accountable to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the efficient management, overall performance and future development of the agency.
  910
  The licensing of medicines, including new drugs, remains the responsibility of Ministers—"the United Kingdom licensing authority"—under the provisions of the Medicines Act 1968 and associated European directives.

  Remand Costs
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is currently(a) the average cost, (b) the highest cost and (c) the lowest cost per week of holding a young person on remand in secure accommodation which is subject to supervision or inspection by his Department.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information is not collected centrally.

  Central Manchester Hospital Trust
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what extra moneys will be made available in the current financial year to the Central Manchester hospital trust to guarantee continuity of patient care;

  (2) if he will make a statement on the financial position of the Central Manchester hospital trust, including details of any plans or proposals which will lead to a reduction of the financial overspend.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Central Manchester hospital trust had an overspend in the first quarter of this financial year. It has taken the action necessary to balance income and expenditure for the year.

  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he had made of the quality and quantity of services provided by the Central Manchester hospital trust; and if he will take steps to ensure they are sustained in the future.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The quality and quantity of the services it provides both now and in the future are a matter for agreement between the Central Manchester hospital trust and its purchasers.

  Caesarean Sections
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list for each district health authority the percentage rate of caesarean sections for all births.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Information relating to the method of birth delivery is collected via the hospital episodes statistics system. At present, it is possible only to give reliable estimates at national level. For this information I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave her on 8 March at columns 322–23. Work is currently in progress to investigate the possibility of producing estimates at regional level. Some incomplete information on method of delivery at district health authority level is available in the health service indicator package, a copy of which is in the Library.

  Purchasing Agreements
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will now take steps to ensure that the minimum permissible expiry time for any purchasing agreement between a health service purchaser and a provider will not be less than the recently announced guaranteed maximum waiting time for the respective treatment.
  911
  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Under the citizens charter, health authorities will be responsible for ensuring that no resident waits more than two years for any operation, except for some special cases such as transplants. This duty will not be affected by the period of operation of any particular contract.

  Maternity Services
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he will list the district health authorities which have established maternity services liaison committees;

  (2) if he will make a statement about maternity services liaison committees.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Maternity services liaison committees continue to be an important forum both for obtaining professional agreement on the operation of local maternity and neonatal services and for representing the views of the consumer.

  At the end of 1988, all district health authorities providing maternity services had set up a maternity services liaison committee. This was in line with the good practice guidance set out in the reports of the Maternity Services Advisory Committee.

  Remand (Young People)
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make it his policy that young people on remand are dealt with in such a way as to maximise public protection and minimise serious re-offending while ensuring cost-effectiveness.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Local authorities already have a statutory power to take account of the need to protect the public in determining how any child in their care, including those on remand, might most appropriately be accommodated. Under the Children Act 1989, local authorities will additionally be under a duty to take reasonable steps designed to encourage children in their area not to commit criminal offences. Guidance on practical steps which authorities might take in exercise of this new duty was given in "The Children Act 1989: Guidance and Regulations Volume 1 Court Orders" a copy of which is available in the Library.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the alternatives to secure accommodation he is currently considering in respect of young people on remand.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Guidance on how local authorities might exercise their new duty under the Children Act 1989 to take reasonable steps designed to avoid the need for children in their area to be placed in secure accommodation is being given in "The Children Act 1989: Guidance and Regulations Volume 4 Residential Care", to be published this week.

  Additionally, the Department has invited a number of bodies, including the local authority associations and the Association of Directors of Social Services, to join a national steering group whose remit will include consideration of further steps which might be taken to develop alternatives to secure accommodation for young people on remand.

  Waiting Lists
  Mr. Jessel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information he has concerning the amount of time lost by consultants and other specialists in the national health service as a result of patients failing to keep appointments or to give notice that they cannot attend appointments at the appointed time; what assessment he has made of the impact of this practice on waiting lists; and what action he intends to take to remind the public of the contribution they can make to reducing waiting lists.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Information is not available centrally on time lost by consultants and other specialists as a result of failure by patients to attend appointments. It is regrettable that some patients do not inform hospitals when they know in advance that they cannot keep an appointment. This results in a waste of resources which could be used for the benefit of other patients. We have recently issued guidelines on the management of waiting lists, commissioned from Qa Business Services, to all health authorities in England. These guidelines provide advice on what hospitals should tell patients about their responsibilities as users of the service. All patients should be told to inform the hospital if their circumstances change in any way that might affect their appointment or admission. All hospitals should also regularly validate their waiting lists to weed out the names of patients who, for one reason or another, no longer require treatment. This will help to cut the number of non-attendances.

  Child Birth
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the district health authorities which have domino schemes for child birth.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information is not collected centrally.

  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will provide information for each of the last five years about the clinical outcomes for births which take place(a) in the home and (b) in hospital settings.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Ambulance Service
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what conditions he lays down for providers of ambulance services in the national health service to publish their specifications for replacement vehicles; and if the relevant requirements are open to competitive tender.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Vehicle specifications for replacement ambulance vehicles are prepared or updated by service providers at the time that tenders for their supply need to be issued. The Majority of these requirements will be open to competitive tender and in many cases, because of the potential order value, subject to EC directives with regard to purchasing procedure.

  Conductive Education
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement outlining the current situation and further plans for the department of conductive
  913
  education in England in general, about the specific development of facilities at Birmingham, and the access to such facilities for patients from other parts of the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Meningitis Vaccine
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when his Department will introduce a vaccine for bacterial meningitis; for what age groups of children the bacterial meningitis vaccine will be introduced and at what times in the immunisation schedule; what plans the Department of Health has to publicise the introduction of the bacterial meningitis vaccine; and what number of children he estimates will be given the bacterial meningitis vaccine during 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We plan to introduce a vaccine against haemophilus influezae b (Hib), the most common cause of bacterial meningitis, from 1 October 1992. Subject to the outcome of studies in progress in Gloucester and Oxford, the recommendation will be for the vaccine to be given in three doses at ages two, three, and four months—at the same time as immunisation against diphtheria, tetanus, polio and whooping cough.

  Before the vaccine is introduced there will be a major publicity campaign aimed at professionals in the NHS and at parents. We hope that Hib will be at least as well accepted as the other vaccines in the childhood immunisation programme, and achieve at least 90 per cent. uptake by the first birthday. This level of acceptance would mean that about 600,000 infants per year would be immunised in England.

  Health Promotion
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assistance his Department is able to offer to voluntary organisations establishing health promotion schemes.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Department provides funding to support the agreed national activities of a large number of voluntary organisations, many of which undertake health education as part of their overall role.

  Steroids
  Mr. Harry Barnes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East of 9 July,Official Report, column 338, if he will give details in each case of the length of time between (a) the seizure of evidence and the issue of the summons and (b) the issue of the summons and the final court decision.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Health Service Trusts
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will name any health service trust which has introduced its own terms or conditions of service since the passing of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990; and if he will list those powers which would enable any provider organisation to take such steps(a) with his consent and (b) without his consent.
  914
  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Information about the terms and conditions of service of staff in NHS trusts is not collected centrally. All provider units are subject to certain powers governing the employment of staff. For NHS trusts, these are set out in sections 5, 6 and 7 of schedule 2 to the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990. For staff in other provider units, including those staff transferred to NHS trusts who chose to remain on their contracts of employment on transfer, the powers are paragraph 10(1) of schedule 5 to the National Health Service Act 1977, paragraph 11 of schedule 3 to that Act and the National Health Service (Remuneration and Conditions of Service) Regulations 1991 (SI 1991 No. 481).

  Written Questions
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many parliamentary questions for written answer have been answered by his Department so far this Session. and in the comparable period for the last Session; and if he will publish a table of how many answers(a) do not give the information requested because of (i) disproportionate cost or (ii) other reasons, (b) give an undertaking to write to the hon. Member who asked the question and (c) were referred for answer to the chief executive of each next steps agency.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information requested is a matter of public record.

  Mrs. Kamala Sunthankar
  Sir Alan Glyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will hold a public inquiry into the death of Mrs. Kamala Sunthankar in the Royal Berkshire hospital on 17 April, details of which have been sent to him.

  Mr. Dorrell
  [holding answer 8 July 1991]: I will write to my hon. Friend.

DEFENCE

  Nuclear Facilities (Iraq)
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement about the nuclear activities conducted by Iraq at(a) the Fallujah facility near Baghdad, (b) the Tarmiyah plant, (c) the Abu Ghurayb military base and (d) the underground complex near Mosul.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  All nuclear activity conducted by Iraq at these and other sites is currently under investigation by the UN Special Commission and the International Atomic Energy Authority which report directly to the UN Secretary General. The UN has released a consolidated report of the first two inspections of Iraqi nuclear facilities and copies of this have been placed in the Library of the House.

  South Atlantic Command Structure
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will set out the command structure for a white ensigned vessel in the south Atlantic and a blue ensigned vessel.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Command of Her Majesty's ships is the responsibility of the Commander in Chief Fleet, who
  915
  in turn is responsible to the Chief of the Naval Staff and the Chief of the Defence Staff. The command structure for blue-ensigned vessels depends upon the Government organisation or other public body which operates them.

  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if he will list the number of hostile incidents involving a blue ensigned vessel in the south Atlantic in the last 30 years;

  (2) on what occasions the United Kingdom has taken military action following harassment of (a) a white ensigned vessel and (b) a blue ensigned vessel in the south Atlantic.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Ministry of Defence records show that during the last thirty years, there has been only one incident involving blue ensigned vessels in the south Atlantic, excluding actions during the Falklands conflict in 1982. This was an unsuccessful attempt by an Argentinian vessel to stop the RRS Shackleton in February 1976. During the same period, with the exception of operations during the Falklands conflict, there have been no occasions on which military action has been taken following harassment of either white or blue ensigned vessels.

  Naval Vessels
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the difference in effect between the presence of an armed vessel flying the white ensign and an unarmed blue ensigned vessel.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  It would depend on the circumstances.

  Low Flying
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the numbers of low-flying movements in the highlands restricted area in each year since 1981; and what information he has on the breakdown of these figures by aircraft type.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  I have nothing to add to the answer that my predecessor gave to the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) on 22 December 1988 at column 369.

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on how many occasions United States air force units stationed in the United Kingdom have been granted permission to fly at less than 250 ft over the United Kingdom during work-up training for red flag exercises in the United States of America; and what is his current policy on the granting of such permission.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  There are no records of United States air force units stationed in the United Kingdom ever having been authorised to carry out operational low flying training at less than 250 ft over the United Kingdom during work-up training for red flag exercises in the United States. My Department's general policy on such training remains as set out in evidence to the Defence Committee last year (HC 120/90, pp. 12–13).

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many representations he has received in the last year on the subject of low flying.
  916
  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) on 15 July at column 94.

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if aircrews are permitted to select towns or villages as turning points when planning the route of a low-flying sortie.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  All aspects of a low-flying sortie, including the choice of turning points, are subject to regulations on the avoidance of populated areas which are designed to minimise disturbance to the general public.

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the measures taken by his Department to ensure that United States forces stationed in the United Kingdom are complying with the regulations and advice set out in the United Kingdom military low flying handbook.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Aircraft of the United States air force stationed in the United Kingdom and using the United Kingdom low flying system are subject to the same monitoring as the Royal Air Force to ensure compliance with United Kingdom low flying regulations.

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if any further United States air force low-flying training at less than 250 ft over Wales has been authorised since the reply given to the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) on 19 December 1990,Official Report, column 208.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  No operational low flying training at less than 250 ft has been authorised over Wales for United States air force aircraft since the reply in question.

  OSEX Exercises
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the requirement for aircraft attack training during the OSEX series of exercises.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The OSEX series of exercises is designed to provide aircrew with training in a range of offensive support operations. Airfield attack is one such operation.

  RAF (Training)
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the requirement for night forward air control training in the Royal Air Force; when training in this role was first introduced into the training programme of Royal Air Force tactical weapons units; and if he will list the locations used for night forward air control training.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  There is currently no requirement for the RAF to carry out night forward air control training, and no such training takes place.

  Ministerial Guidance
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the NATO defence ministerial guidance to 1998 agreed in May 1991 and its implications for answering threats to the United Kingdom.
  917
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The 1991 ministerial guidance which was approved by Defence Ministers at their meeting at the end of May provides political guidance for defence planning activities in NATO, both national and collective, for the period up to 1998 and beyond. The guidance emphasises the need to maintain the effectiveness of the alliance's collective defence arrangements and thus to provide the level of resources necessary to ensure that forces contributing to the new force structures are adequately manned, equipped, trained and exercised, and so capable of countering any threat to the territory of allies.

  Air Refuelling
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if air-to-air refuelling operations are permitted in United Kingdom airspace outside the designated air refuelling areas published in the United Kingdom air pilot and royal air force flight information publications; and what are the regulations governing such operations.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Air-to-air refuelling is permitted outside the designated air refuelling areas listed in the United Kingdom air pilot and Royal Air Force flight information publications, but normally only over the sea. lf, exceptionally, permission is given to conduct air refuelling over land and outside the designated areas, such operations must be carried out at high level, away from built-up areas.

  Anti-ballistic Missiles
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is his policy towards the adoption of an anti-ballistic missile capability by NATO.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  This was addressed recently when alliance Ministers met in Brussels on 28–29 May. The final communique issued at the end of that meeting reports that Ministers discussed the potential risk posed by proliferation of ballistic missiles and weapons of mass destruction and the need to consider complementary approaches to dealing with the problem, including export controls and missile defences. Ministers welcomed a briefing by the United States concerning its concept for global protection against limited ballistic missile strikes.

  F15E Aircraft
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement concerning the location of F15E aircraft.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on 5 February 1991 at column 161.

  Squadron Roles
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will provide a costing for maintaining dual capable units of the armed forces in a nuclear role for each of the following types of units currently in service:(a) Tornado squadrons, (b) Buccaneer squadrons, (c) Sea Harrier squadrons, (d) Nimrod squadrons, (e) Sea King squadrons or flights, (f) Lance regiments and (g) 155 mm self-propelled artillery regiments.
  918
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The information is not held in the form requested and could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Territorial Reserve Forces
  Mr. Amess
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the territorial reserve forces.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence in the House on 23 July, and the accompanying White Paper entitled, "Britain's Army for the 90s" (Cm. 1595).

  Defence Spending
  Mr. Walden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the percentage of gross domestic product spent on defence will be in the United Kingdom after the proposed reductions are implemented; and what information he has on the comparable proportion of gross domestic product spent on defence in France and Germany, allowing for cuts planned in the same period by these countries.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Plans announced last autumn showed the percentage of gross domestic product spent on defence reducing from 4 per cent. in 1990–91 (excluding expenditure on the Gulf deployment) to 3·4 per cent. in 1993–94. These plans are being reviewed during this year's public expenditure survey in the light of the further work that has taken place to refine the "Options for Change" proposals. No information is yet available on future levels of gross domestic product to be spent on defence by France. Although Germany has announced plans for defence spending to 1994, no forecasts of German gross domestic product are avaialable for that year for comparison with United Kingdom figures.

  Faslane and Coulport
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much has been spent on the Faslane Trident training facility in financial years(a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90 and (d) 1990–91 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (2) how much has been spent on the Faslane shiplift in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (3) how much has been spent on the Coulport maintenance support building in financial years (a) 1990–91, and (b) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices, and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (4) how much has been spent on shore construction at Faslane and Coulport in support of the Trident programme in each of the last 10 financial years in (i) then-year prices, and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (5) how much has been spent on the Coulport re-entry body processing building in the financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (6) how much has been spent on the Faslane site services distribution 1 to 4 berths in financial years (a) 1989–90, (b) 1990–91, and (c) 1991–92, in (i) then-year prices, and (ii) 1991–92 prices;
  919
  (7) how much has been spent on the Faslane strategic weapons support system in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92, in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (8) how much has been spent on the Faslane Neptune senior ratings mess in financial years (a) 1989–90, (b) 1990–91 and (c) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) current prices;

  (9) how much has been spent on the Coulport electrical generating station in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (10) how much has been spent on the Coulport ready issue magazines in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices, and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (11) how much has been spent on the Faslane finger jetty in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d 1990–91, and (e) 1991–92, in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (12) how much has been spent on the Coulport special area security in the financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (13) how much has been spent on the Faslane dockside cranes in financial years (a) 1989–90, (b) 1990–91, and (c) 1991–92, in (i) then-year prices, and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  £ thousands

  Project

  Capital

  Resources

  Total

  Trident training facility

  12,140

  2,440

  14,580

  Faslane shiplift

  125,369

  41,917

  167,286

  Coulport maintenance support building

  829

  1,292

  2,121

  Faslane shore construction

  343,303

  99,756

  443,059

  Coulport shore construction

  276,793

  69,035

  345,828

  Coulport re-entry body processing building

  7,790

  1,560

  9,350

  Faslane SSD/1 to 4 berth

  6,095

  3,013

  9,108

  Faslane strategic weapons support building

  14,094

  3,237

  17,331

  Faslane senior rates mess

  807

  878

  1,685

  Coulport generating station

  27,496

  8,537

  36,033

  Coulport ready issue magazines

  11,043

  2,268

  13,311

  Faslane finger jetty

  15,506

  5,184

  20,690

  Coulport special area security

  18,421

  3,783

  22,204

  Faslane dockside cranes

  15,586

  5,211

  20,797

  Coulport explosives handling jetty

  63,368

  23,759

  87,127

  Coulport jetty foreshore

  12,205

  2,419

  14,624

  Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence

  28,476

  5,645

  34,121

  Coulport re-entry body magazines

  15,540

  3,191

  18,731

  Faslane northern utilities building

  30,048

  10,047

  40,095

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport ready issue magazines;

  (2) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane finger jetty;

  (3) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport special area security;

  (4) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane dockside cranes;

  (5) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport explosives handling jetty;

  (6) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence;

  (7) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport re-entry body magazine;

  (8) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane northern utilities building;
  920
  (14) how much has been spent on the Coulport explosives handling jetty in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (15) how much has been spent on the Coulport jetty foreshore in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (16) how much has been spent on the Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91, and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (17) how much has been spent on the Coulport re-entry body magazine in financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91 and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices;

  (18) how much has been spent on the Faslane northern utilities building in the financial years (a) 1987–88, (b) 1988–89, (c) 1989–90, (d) 1990–91, and (e) 1991–92 in (i) then-year prices and (ii) 1991–92 prices.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The information is not available in the form requested and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. However, cumulative capital and resource cash outturn figures to the end of 1990–91 for these projects are shown in the table:

  (9) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport jetty foreshore;

  (10) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport electrical generating station;

  (11) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane strategic weapons support system;

  (12) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane Neptune senior ratings mess;

  (13) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport re-entry body processing building;

  (14) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane site services distribution/1 to 4 berths;

  (15) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Coulport maintenance support building;

  (16) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane trident training facility;
  921
  (17) if he will make a statement about the role and function of the Faslane shiplift.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  These facilities will variously support Vanguard submarines, some other classes of submarine, and the Trident strategic weapons system.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much of the cost of the Coulport re-entry body magazine is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (2) how much of the cost of the Coulport electrical generating station is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (3) how much of the cost of the Coulport re-entry body processing building is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (4) how much of the cost of the Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (5) how much of the cost of the Coulport explosives handling jetty is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (6) how much of the cost of the Coulport jetty foreshore is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (7) how much of the cost of the Faslane strategic weapons support system is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (8) how much of the cost of the Coulport ready issue magazines is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (9) how much of the cost of the Faslane finger jetty is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (10) how much of the cost of the Faslane dockside cranes is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (11) how much of the cost of the Faslane Trident training facility is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (12) how much of the cost of the Faslane Neptune senior ratings mess is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (13) how much of the cost of the Faslane northern utilities building is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (14) how much of the cost of the Coulport special area security is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (15) how much of the cost of the Faslane shiplift is attributable to the Trident programme;

  (16) how much of the cost of the Faslane site services Distribution/1 to 4 berths is attributable to the Trident programme.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  It is not our policy to discuss the detailed Trident attribution of individual projects or contract packages.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane Neptune senior ratings mess; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (2) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence in financial years (a) 1992–93 and (b) 1993–94;

  (3) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991-92 prices, on the Coulport electrical generating station in financial years (a) 1992–93 and (b) 1993–94;

  (4) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane northern utilities building; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;
  922
  (5) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport ready issue magazines in financial years (a) 1992–93, (b) 1993–94 and (c) 1994–95;

  (6) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991-92 prices, on the Faslane finger jetty in the financial years (a) 1992–93 and (b) 1993–94;

  (7) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport special area security; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what were the reasons for the difference;

  (8) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane dockside cranes in financial years (a) 1992–93 and (b) 1993–94;

  (9) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane shiplift; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what were the reasons for the difference;

  (10) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport maintenance support building; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (11) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991-92 prices, on the Coulport explosives handling jetty in financial years (a) 1992–93, (b) 1993–94 and (c) 1994–95;

  (12) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport jetty foreshore in financial years (a) 1992–93 and (b) 1993–94;

  (13) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane site services distribution/ 1 to 4 berths; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (14) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport re-entry body processing building; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (15) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane shiplift in financial years (a) 1992–93, (b) 1993–94 and (c) 1994–95;

  (16) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport maintenance support building in financial years (a) 1992–93, (b) 1993–94 and 1994–95;

  (17) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane Trident training facility; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (18) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane site services distribution/ 1 to 4 berths in financial years (a) 1992–93 and (b) 1993–94;

  (19) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport electrical generating station; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference between these estimates;

  (20) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane northern utilities building in financial years (a) 1992–93 and (b) 1993–94;

  (21) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport jetty foreshore; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (22) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport ready issue magazines; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;
  923
  (23) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane finger jetty; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (24) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane dockside cranes; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (25) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane strategic weapons support system; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (26) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (27) what is the cost of the Coulport maintenance support building;

  (28) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport explosives handling jetty; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference;

  (29) what is the expected expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Faslane Neptune senior rates mess in financial year 1992–93;

  (30) what was the original estimate of expenditure, in 1991–92 prices, on the Coulport re-entry body magazine; what is the current estimate of expenditure; and what are the reasons for the difference.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  It is not our policy to discuss the latest estimated costs or expected annual expenditure of individual projects or contract packages for reasons of commercial confidentiality.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane site services distribution 1 to 4 berths; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (2) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport special area security; and what was the original estimate of the year of completion;

  (3) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane shiplift; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (4) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane northern utilities building, and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (5) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport maintenance support building; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (6) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane Neptune senior ratings mess; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (7) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport re-entry body magazine; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (8) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport electrical generating station; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (9) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport re-entry body processing building; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (10) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;
  924
  (11) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport explosives handling jetty; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (12) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport jetty foreshore; and what was the original estimate of year of completion.

  (13) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane strategic weapons support system; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (14) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Coulport ready issue magazines; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (15) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane finger jetty, and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (16) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane dockside cranes; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  (17) what is the current estimate of year of completion for the Faslane Trident training facility; and what was the original estimate of year of completion;

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The information requested is shown in the table:

  Project

  Estimated year of completion

  1Original

  Current

  Faslane SSD/1–4 Berth

  1993–94

  1993–94

  Coulport special area security

  1990–91

  Complete

  Faslane shiplift

  1990–91

  1993–94

  Northern Utilities Building

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Coulport Maintenance Support Building

  1992–93

  1992–93

  Faslane senior rates mess

  1991–92

  21991–92

  Re-entry body magazines

  1991–92

  1991–92

  Coulport generator station

  1991–92

  1991–92

  Re-entry body processing building

  1991–92

  1991–92

  Jetty roads and perimeter fence

  1990–91

  3199I–92

  Explosives handling jetty

  1991–92

  1992–93

  Coulport jetty foreshore

  1991–92

  41991–92

  Strategic weapons support building

  1990–91

  completed

  Coulport ready issue magazines

  1991–92

  1991–92

  Finger jetty

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Dockside cranes

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Trident training facility

  1988–89

  works completed 1988–89

  1 At time of contract let.

  2 Advanced works only.

  3 Jetty link road and fence.

  4 Jetty support area.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) why the Coulport re-entry body magazine was not included in table 1 of class I, vote 4 of the supply estimates for 1991–92;

  (2) why the Coulport re-entry body processing building was not included in table 1 of class I, vote 4 of the supply estimates for 1991–92;

  (3) why the Coulport jetty roads and perimeter fence was not included in table 1 of class I, vote 4 of the supply estimates for 1991–92;

  (4) why the Faslane strategic weapons support system was not listed in table 2 of class I, vote 4 of the supply estimates for 1991–92;

  (5) why the Coulport special area security was not included in table 1 of class I, vote 4 of the supply estimates for 1991–92;
  925
  (6) why the Coulport maintenance support building was not included in table 1 of class I, vote 4 of the supply estimates for 1991–92.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Member.

  Challenger II Tank
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the first Challenger II tank is scheduled to enter operational service with the Army.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  We expect the first Challenger II to enter service with the British Army in the mid-1990s.

  Nuclear Submarines
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether any further decisions have been made regarding the decommissioning of nuclear submarines.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The policy for disposal of decommissioned nuclear submarines remains under active consideration. No final decision has yet been taken.

  RAF Greenham Common
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether any further decisions have been made regarding the future use of RAF Greenham Common.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  No.

  HMS Warspite
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the timetable for the decommissioning of HMS Warspite.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  HMS Warspite is undergoing decommissioning at Devonport at the present time.

  Menwith Hill Byelaws
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many prosecutions have been brought under the Menwith Hill Military Lands Byelaws in each of the years since the byelaws entered force; and how many convictions were secured under these byelaws in each year.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Member.

  Barton Stacey Married Quarters
  Sir David Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on his plans to offer empty married quarters at Barton Stacey for sale; if he will set out the timetable for the sale; and what are his proposals on the future of Army houses where the offer for sale to service personnel is not taken up.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Fifty-one married quarters at Barton Stacey have been identified as surplus to our long-term requirements and will be offered for sale to service personnel through the services discount scheme. Some of the houses to be sold are still occupied. Those 926
  already vacant will be offered for sale as soon as the details can be drawn up for publication in the sales bulletin and the remainder will be offered for sale as soon as they become vacant. Any houses not taken up under the discount scheme are normally offered for sale on the open market at full market price, but depending on the number of quarters available the possibility of a bulk disposal in this particular instance cannot be ruled out.

  International Military Services
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary 'of State for Defence what co-operation there has been between the International Military Services and the defence equipment finance department of the Midland International Trade Services in the last two years.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Decisions on individual business contacts of International Military Services Ltd. are matters for the company's judgment, and are subject to commercial confidentiality.

  Iraq
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what contingency measures are in place to deal with the environmental damage that could arise from a decision to bomb Iraq's nuclear plants;

  (2) what contingency plans there are to evacuate civilians or offer assistance in the event of a decision being made to bomb Iraq's nuclear plants.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  We look to Iraq to comply in full with the terms of Security Council resolution 687. I am not prepared to speculate about any action which may be necessary to ensure Iraqi compliance.

  Royal Ordnance
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many transactions with Royal Ordnance, prior to privatisation, were made using the Bank of Credit and Commerce International; what were the transactions for; and who were the purchasers.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The records for this period are no longer held centrally, but any role for BCCI in transactions involving Royal Ordnance would have been a matter for the customer. Details of such transactions would be regarded as commercially confidential.

  Kuwait
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what additional precautions have been taken for service personnel working in the Kuwait region since 26 February to(a) safeguard their general health and (b) reduce their exposure to air pollution;

  (2) what criteria have been used to determine the levels of exposure to air pollution that are applied to service personnel who have been working in the Kuwait region since 26 February;

  (3) whether anti-pollution masks have been issued to service personnel working in the Kuwait region since 26 February;

  (4) what plans he has to improve anti-air pollution measures for service personnel in the Kuwait region;

  (5) what assessment has been made of the application of health and safety precautions by his United States counterpart in the Kuwait region since 26 February.
  927
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Service personnel in close proximity to the oil fires are provided with protective masks and their lung function is being monitored.

  The health and safety of personnel deployed in Kuwait is a matter of priority. The individual measures taken to ensure health and safety, which are kept under review, are based on expert advice and reflect the extensive experience of the services in such matters. No formal assessment of equivalent United States measures has been carried out.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what expenditure was incurred on(a) general health and safety precautions and (b) anti-air pollution measures for service personnel working in the Kuwait region since 26 February.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  This information is not available as it is subsumed in other costs.

  Mobile Force
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what expenditure will be saved as a result of not retaining the United Kingdom mobile force;

  (2) what is the strategic rationale for the decision not to retain the United Kingdom mobile force.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The decision that NATO should reply on smaller conventional forces in Europe, with an increased emphasis on flexibility and rapid deployment was based on a careful reassessment of the risks of war in Europe, and developments in the Soviet Union. Against this background, "Options for Change" concluded that the role of the United Kingdom mobile force needed to be re-examined along with other deployment options for reinforcement forces on an Allied Command Europe-wide basis. Elements of the United Kingdom mobile force will be redeployed within our contribution to the new Allied Command Europe Rapid Reaction Corps structure. It is not possible separately to identify savings attributable to its disbandment.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what consultations have taken place with his Danish, German and Norwegian counterparts regarding the withdrawal of the United Kingdom mobile force.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Denmark, Germany and Norway were consulted, along with other allies, through the normal alliance procedures.

  Service Commitments
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many(a) infantry battalions and (b) armoured regiments will be assigned to the Rapid Reaction Corps;

  (2) whether he will list the future commitments of the British Army envisaged under "Options for Change", giving details of the number of battalions and regiments that will be required to fulfil those commitments.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Member to paragraphs 9 to 20 "Britain's Army for the 90s" (Cm. 1595), published on 23 July 1991.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) whether he will list the current commitments of the British Army, giving details of the number of battalions and regiments that are required to fulfil those commitments;
  928
  (2) whether he will list the future commitments of the Royal Air Force envisaged under "Options for Change", giving details of the number and type of squadrons that will be required to fulfil those commitments;

  (3) whether he will list the current commitments of the Royal Navy, giving details of the number and type of vessels that are required to fulfil those commitments;

  (4) whether he will list the current commitments of the Royal Air Force, giving details of the number and type of squadrons that are required to fulfil those commitments;

  (5) whether he will list the future commitments of the Royal Navy envisaged under "Options for Change", giving details of the number and type of vessels that will be required to fulfil those commitments.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Member to volume 1, chapter 4 of the Statement on the Defence Estimates, "Britain's Defence for the 1990's" (Cm. 1559–1) which was published on 9 July.

  Naval Support
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what financial savings are estimated to result from his statement on changes in naval support of 16 July,Official Report, columns 148–49.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) on 22 July 1991 at column 452.

  Operation Granby
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which units deployed as part of Operation Granby were undermanned.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  All units deployed on Operation Granby were manned to their full war establishment.

  Five-power Defence Arrangement
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what effect "Options for Change" will have with regard to the five-power defence arrangement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Her Majesty's Government remain committed to the five-power defence arrangements as a useful source of security for friendly nations in south-east Asia and it is intended that, subject to availability of resources, the active participation of all three services in FPDA exercises will continue.

  Redundancies
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what redundancy terms he plans to offer to those service personnel who are made redundant as a result of "Options for Change".

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave on 23 July to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Dr. Twinn). Redundancy terms are the same for all three services and are embodied, for the Royal Navy, in Orders in Council; for the Army, in part 9 of the Army pensions warrant; and for the Royal Air Force in chapter 46 of Queen's Regulations (Royal Air Force).

  Dr. Twinn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has for handling redundancy in the services and among Ministry of Defence United Kingdom-based civil servants; and if he will make a statement.
  929
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer my hon. Friend to "Britain's Army for the '90s" (Cm. 1595), which has been published today. Details of Army redundancies are set out in paragraphs 39 to 42.

  As to redundancies in the other two services, the Royal Navy judges that there may be a measure of redundancy among officers and ratings, mainly at more senior levels. Subject to further assessment of the numbers involved, it is hoped to achieve these by voluntary redundancy, some late in 1992–93, with the majority subsequently. Some compulsory redundancies might be necessary to complete the programme.

  No decisions have yet been taken about RAF redundancies, but it is considered that redundancies among airmen are unlikely, with the possible exception of a small number of senior NCOs in a few trades. In the case of RAF officers, some measure of redundancy at squadron leader level and above may be necessary over the period to the mid-1990s, but it is hoped to keep this to a minimum. The terms and conditions of RN and RAF redundancy will be same as those for the Army.

  On current plans about 20,000 United Kingdom-based civil service posts will be reduced over the period 1991–92 to 1996–97. To the greatest extent possible, this reduction will be achieved by natural wastage, early retirement and redeployment. However, there will inevitably be some redundancies, particularly among industrial and non-mobile staff. Numbers will to some extent depend upon which establishments are closed and on the timing. Redundancies will be handled under the Ministry of Defence redundancy agreement. Redundancy compensa-tion is paid under the principal civil service payment scheme.

  Top-level Budgets
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will provide detailed figures of the operating costs and programme expenditure in top-level budgets described on page 61 of the 1991 "Statement of the Defence Estimates 1991" Cm. 1559.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Detailed figures for operating costs and programme expenditure in the top level budgets described on page 61 of the 1991 Statement on the Defence Estimates are as follows:

  Operating costs £ million

  Programme expenditure £ million

  CinC Fleet

  717

  —

  Commandant General Royal Marines

  191

  —

  British Army of the Rhine

  1,692

  —

  Field Army

  1,118

  —

  Assistant Chief of the General Staff

  521

  73

  Strike Command

  1,236

  —

  RAF Germany

  358

  —

  Overseas Commands

  520

  —

  Naval Home Command

  514

  —

  Fleet Support

  666

  1,089

  Quartermaster General

  270

  453

  Army Individual Training Organisation

  713

  —

  Support Command

  739

  33

  Air Member for Supply and Organisation

  250

  1,112

  Principal Personnel Officers

  339

  2,169

  Other MOD TLBs

  521

  677

  Chief of Defence Procurement

  995

  —

  Defence Research Agency

  626

  —

  Meteorological Office

  59

  —

  930
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will provide details of the amounts assigned to the top-level budget holders listed on page 60 of the "Statement on the Defence Estimates 1991", Cm. 1559; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The amounts assigned to the top level budgets listed on page 60 of the 1991 Statement on the Defence Estimates are as follows:

  £ million

  CinC Fleet

  717

  Commandant General Royal Marines

  191

  British Army of the Rhine

  1,692

  United Kingdom Land Forces

  1,831

  of which:

  Field Army

  1,118

  Army Individual Training Organisation

  713

  Assistant Chief of the General Staff

  594

  Strike Command

  1,236

  RAF Germany

  376

  Naval Home Command

  514

  Chief of Naval Personnel

  666

  Fleet Support

  1,755

  Adjutant General

  1,095

  Quartermaster General

  723

  Support Command

  772

  Air Member for Personnel

  746

  Air Member for Supply and Organisation

  1,362

  Other MOD TLBs

  1636

  Vice Chief of Defence Staff

  563

  of which:

  Defence Staff HQ

  43

  Overseas Commands

  520

  Chief of Defence Procurement

  995

  Defence Research Agency

  626

  Meteorological Office

  59

  1 "Other MOD TLBs" include the 2nd Permanent Under Secretary of State, Chief Scientific Advisor and Chief of Defence Intelligence. The figure cannot be disaggregated, for reasons of national security.

  WE 177 Weapon
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer of 3 June,Official Report, column 128, to the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) if he expects to make a statement on the costs of replacing the WE 177 weapon before the beginning of the summer adjournment of the House.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  No.

  "Options for Change"
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what formal consultations took place with NATO allies prior to 25 July 1990 regarding "Options for Change".

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave him on 4 July at column 212.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what discussions he has had with the Nepalese Government and the Brunei Government regarding "Options for Change".

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Both Governments have been informed of the implications of "Options for Change" in relation to the Brigade of Gurkhas.

  Mr. Hague
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on how many service and United Kingdom civilian personnel are affected by "Options for Change"; and what roles the civilian staff employed by the Ministry of Defence carry out.
  931
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The current strength of the armed forces is some 305,000. The 1979 figure was 322,000, and the mid-1990s figure will be some 246,000. The Ministry of Defence employs a total of 169,000 civilians, 140,000 United Kingdom-based and 29,000 engaged overseas. The 1979 total was 286,000 and the total by the mid 1990s will be 135,000. Ministry of Defence civilians carry out a wide variety of roles in support of all three services. Since they cost less and can provide greater continuity, they are widely employed to release service personnel for military tasks. Programmes on which civilians are employed are set out in the Statement on the Defence Estimates. As well as headquarters work, examples of their tasks and roles are:

  Running the Royal Fleet Auxiliaries. These include tankers, support and supply ships which sail with the fleet and on operations. (About 2,500 people).

  Running the Navy's supply and armament depots.

  Building, maintaining and storing the nuclear deterrent.

  Explosive Ordnance Disposal.

  Manning army workshops.

  Computer support for all three services.

  Bill paying for all that is bought by the three services. The Ministry of Defence police, some 5,000 strong, who guard key establishments against terrorists.

  The fire services for all three services.

  RAF repair, maintenance and supply depots and other support tasks in RAF Commands. (About 20,000 in all).

  Running service mess facilities.

  Scientific research in our research establishments.

  The scientists and other professionals who run the Meteorological Office (weather forecasting) and most of the staff in the Hydrographic Office.

  Logistical Support
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what changes he has made to his policy regarding logistical support as a result of(a) Operation Granby and (b) "Options for Change".

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  We are considering the outcome of Operation Granby and the conclusions to be drawn from it in the logistics and other areas but it is too early to say what changes may result. Within "Options for Change" we have set ourselves the goal of making substantial savings in the support area commensurate with those in the front line. The Statement on the Defence Estimates published on 9 July contains a full statement of our plans. We have already announced some decisions affecting the Army logistic base and corps, naval support infrastructure and a number of RAF bases. More announcements will be made in due course.

  NATO Forces
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what contribution he envisages British armed forces making to NATO's main defence forces.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  While the British Army's main contribution to the defence of Europe will be as part of the new multinational ACE Rapid Reaction Corps, 1st (UK) Armoured Division will also have deployment options with a German-led main defence force corps if it is available and required. The RN and RAF will be contributing to main defence forces; details of their assignment are still being discussed within NATO.

  Merlin Helicopter
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many jobs are involved in(a) the Merlin helicopter project and (b) the prime contractor functions of this project.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  This would be a matter for those companies participating in the project.

  Injuries Compensation
  Sir George Gardiner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many members of the armed forces have applied for compensation for injuries sustained while on duty in each of the last 10 years; and how many cases, in respect of each year, are still awaiting settlement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The information requested is not readily available. My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Member.

  Radar Companies
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the long-term military procurement implications of the proposed merger between Thomson CSF and GEC Airborne Radar capabilities; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The proposed joint venture between GEC-Marconi and Thomson-CSF is being considered by the Director General of Fair Trading. Advice by the MOD to the regulatory authorities is given on a confidential basis and it would be inappropriate for me to comment at this stage.

  Royal Navy Museum
  Mr. Faulds
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) whether the development of the museum of the Royal Navy at Portsmouth is dependent on any commercial venture; where any company involved in the development is registered; and what consideration has been given to the consequences for the developments at the museum of the Royal Navy of financial problems or collapse suffered by any company involved;

  (2) whether he will increase the grant-in-aid to the museum of the Royal Navy at Portsmouth to obviate the development of the museum being taken over by a commercial company.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Responsibility for the development of the Royal Naval Museum at Portsmouth rests with the trustees of the museum. The MOD provides an annual grant-in-aid as a substantial contribution towards meeting the running costs of the museum.

  Trident
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he proposes to publish a formal response to the Defence Committee's report on the Trident programme.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  It is our intention to reply to the House of Commons Defence Committee's report on the Trident programme within the next two months.

  Nuclear Weapons
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what notification is given to local fire authorities prior to the transport of nuclear warheads or missiles through the centre of a city;

  (2) pursuant to his answer of 16 July, Official Report, column 148, whether the local police force is warned in advance when a nuclear weapons convoy is to pass through their area of responsibility.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Advance notice of the routes and timings of nuclear weapons convoys is kept to a strict minimum for security reasons. Nevertheless, liaison is maintained with those local police forces which might have such convoys passing through their area of responsibility.

  Caledonian MacBrayne Ferry (Near Miss)
  Mrs. Ray Michie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what progress has been made into investigating the near-miss of a Buccaneer jet and Caledonian MacBrayne ferry Lord of the Isles on 30 April; when he expects the investigations to release the inquiry report; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  I hope to write to the hon. Member shortly.

  Benzodiazepines
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how widespread is the use of the benzodiazepine sleeping pill temazepam by RAF personnel; and how many of these are undergoing treatment for panic attacks as a result of taking the drug.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Temazepam is used by RAF personnel who have difficulties in sleeping due to disturbance of their rest and activity patterns associated with intensive air operations.

  I am not aware of any personnel having undergone treatment for panic attacks as a result of taking temazepam.

  Regimental System
  Mr. Marlow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what arguments he considered against the regimental system before deciding to retain it.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The future of the regimental system was never in doubt: it was the degree of change to the regimental structure that was a factor for consideration in the "Options for Change" exercise.

  Hydrographic Office
  Mrs. Roe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the performance of the Hydrographic Office in its first year of operation as a defence support agency and on performance targets for 1991–92.
  934
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I have today placed in the Library a copy of the Hydrographic Office Defence Support Agency's annual report for the year 1990–91.

  At the time of the launch in April 1990 the chief executive was set a number of demanding targets covering quality of service, efficiency and productivity. The results from the first year of operation as an agency have been very encouraging. As the 1990–91 annual report shows, the Hydrographic Office has met or exceeded most of its targets. This has been achieved in a year in which the Hydrographic Office played a significant role in support of Operation Granby.

  The need to secure economies in defence spending continues, and defence support agencies which remain an integral part of the Ministry of Defence cannot be exempt from contributing to this process. Against this background, and recognising the progress already made, the key targets for this financial year and beyond have been revised.

  On quality of service, the chief executive is required to continue to ensure that all immediate dangers are promulgated by radio navigation warnings within the now reduced period of 20 hours, and to accelerate the programme of modernisation and metrication of charts by reducing the number of imperial unit charts remaining in the inventory by at least 90 such charts per annum. The chief executive is also required to increase the number of new charts and new editions by at least 5 per cent. per annum to 1994–95.

  As regards commercial sales a higher target has been set, to increase revenue from such sales by at least 13 per cent. over the first five years of the operation of the agency. Over the same period the aim remains to increase productivity by an average of at least 1 per cent. per annum.

  The chief executive has also been required to reduce the agency's net operating costs by £0·9 million per annum but may offset all or part of such a reduction by increasing revenue above that already budgeted.

  As regards an overall efficiency target to which the above key targets and other targets in the agency's business plan will contribute, the assumption is that the discipline of the next steps approach and the additional freedoms and flexibilities which agencies receive will allow them to do better in terms of efficiency than in the rest of the Department. The chief executive is, therefore, being required to achieve an efficiency target of 2·5 per cent. this year, compared with 1·5 per cent.for the Department as a whole. I would, however, hope an average of 3·5 per cent. would be achievable over the period 1992–93 to 1994–95.

  As the annual report for 1990–91 shows, progress has been made on the remaining two key targets, to develop within 1990–91 an improved system of output measurement and improved management information and management accounting systems. Those targets have now been refined to provide for the development of the agency's financial and management accounting information system by 1 April 1992 and the installation of a fully integrated IT-supported management information system by 1 April 1994.

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St. Albans.

The Chilterns: Road Planning
Lord Hunt Lord Hunt asked Her Majesty's Government:
What are their proposals for upgrading and extending existing roads in the Chilterns area of outstanding natural beauty to connect the M.4, the M.25 and the M.40 with the intended strategic road between Harwich and Felixstowe and the M.40, which is referred to in the Department of Transport report Trunk Roads, England—Into the 1990's.
The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, we have no road proposals for connecting those motorways with the planned east-west trunk route between the M.40 and the Haven ports of Felixstowe and Harwich.
A study, announced in the White Paper, Roads for Prosperity, is to be undertaken into possible traffic demand for a link between the M.3 and M.40 to the west of the M.25. We have no preconceived ideas about the need for such a link or, if need is established, the route that one might take.
Lord Hunt: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, which is a great relief to me. Is he aware that in the document referred to on the Order Paper there are proposals for upgrading those roads through the Chilterns? If those proposals were to be developed, does he agree that they would greatly increase the volume of traffic in a small AONB, causing continuing pollution by noise and fumes? Does he further agree that it would have the effect of dividing this small AONB—the particular value and importance of which is its proximity and accessibility to London and other areas—into three parts? I hope that that situation will be fully borne in mind should those proposals be developed.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I can reassure the noble Lord that his concerns will be borne in mind if such a proposal reaches the light of day. As I indicated in my original Answer, a possible route between the M.3 and M.40 is a long way off. The Haven ports-M.40 route is much further advanced. That might possibly have a small impact on one particular part of the AONB, but that is known about.
Lord Renton: My Lords, is it not helpful to know that the Government's acceptance of the European directive on the environmental assessment will be of great importance and assistance when road plans of such o major kind are being made?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, any new proposals as predicated in this Question will, of course, be the subject of a full environmental impact assessment.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that the Government will make a rather better fist of defending essential interests, including environmental ones, than they did in relation to the Naseby battlefield?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the Naseby battlefield is a completely different issue, on which environmental considerations won.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: My Lords, as one who lives in the district named by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I congratulate the Minister and thank him warmly for his Answer, which will be warmly welcomed throughout the district.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, will the Minister explain why there is only one service and rest area on the whole of the M.25 and none on the M.40?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I wish that there were facilities on the M.40. Unfortunately, we have just had planning permission for one service area turned down.

The Seven Dials Monument
11.11 a.m.
Lord Rea Lord Rea asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will consider making a contribution to restoration work on the monument at Seven Dials Circus, Monmouth Street, WC2, to enable it to be completed.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, the Government have no plans to make a contribution to the restoration work on or around the monument at Seven Dials.
Lord Rea: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer, which was entirely predictable. Is she aware that the Seven Dials monument is the focus for an imaginative development scheme for the whole of the Seven Dials neighbourhood which aims to restore its original character? Will the noble Baroness be able to assist through any agency under her auspices? The local borough of Camden is at present rather strapped for cash.
I shall be grateful if the noble Baroness can assist me on a further point. I have been intrigued by why —and this is the case even on the original monument built by Thomas Neal in 1794—there are only six sun dials on the monument whereas the district has always been known under its present name of Seven Dials.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, perhaps I may take the last point first. There are indeed six dials. The monument itself forms a seventh dial. I have found researching this Question fascinating: it is a pleasant change. The Seven Dials Monument Company has been in touch with my department. It said that it wishes its fund raising to be independent of

877
government. The company intends to raise its moneys separately on its own. However, the company believes that there are ways in which the department can be helpful in developing interesting conservation work in that area. We shall be talking to the company about ways in which we can help. English Heritage is extremely impressed by what the company is doing and believes that it is setting an example which others may wish to follow.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, is the Minister aware that Seven Dials is a conservation area within the Covent Garden district? It is a district of great charm and interest which was saved from total destruction by the noble Lord, Lord Rippon of Hexham. In view of her encouraging reply will the Government carry on the good work and help towards the reconstruction of this monumental pillar, which was erected in the 17th century and not in the 18th century, as my noble friend said? It was removed in the late 18th century. The pillar is an attractive feature of the Seven Dials Circus.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I understand that the monument was built in 1690. I had not realised that the noble Lord, Lord Rea, had mentioned a different century. We are talking about a replica because the original monument is in Surrey in a Grade II listed building and is being well cared for. The point that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, makes about conservation is well taken. Covent Garden is an unusual and interesting conservation area and we believe that the work being carried out is interesting. English Heritage is impressed and believes that the work represents a model for others to follow.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the document that I hold states that the monument was erected in 1694 and was removed in 1773. Given that the sun dial is useful, decorative, commemorative and many faceted, is it not precisely the kind of sun dial with which the Secretary of State will wish to be associated?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, perhaps I may read from the letter that I have received from the company. It states:
"The charity has always aimed to succeed without public funds and indeed we have raised a fair percentage of the proportion through generating our own on-site income".
It has raised £185,000 out of the necessary £250,000. The letter continues:
"However, there may be ways in which the Government could assist without direct funding".
That is the point that I have been making and the point about which we wish to speak to the company.
Lord Rea: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, although the present ugly hoarding surrounding the monument is generating income of £18,000 per annum through advertising, it will take at least four years to pay off the accumulated deficit if that is the only source of income? At present the monument is earning a living but only by being concealed.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am not sure that I see very much wrong with that. Work is being carried out behind the hoarding and presumably the funds that
878
are raised are being ploughed back into the project. So far the company has raised £185,000 of the £250,000 that is required and is about to launch the second phase of its appeal. I believe that the company has done a remarkably good job.

Cambodia
11.17 a.m.
Lord Desai Lord Desai asked Her Majesty's Government:
How they have responded to the recent talks about the cessation of hostilities in Cambodia and what steps they are taking to help Cambodia secure a peaceful and prosperous future.
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, we warmly welcome the decision of all the Cambodian parties to observe an unlimited ceasefire and cease receiving outside arms supplies. This and other progress during the Supreme National Council's meetings in Thailand from 24th to 26th June and in Peking on 16th July are important steps in the peace process. As a permanent member of the UN Security Council we remain committed to playing a full part in efforts to agree and implement a comprehensive political settlement in Cambodia. We urge all the Cambodian parties to continue to co-operate in overcoming their remaining differences.
Lord Desai: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Can he say whether there are any imminent plans to recognise Cambodia as a full member of the international community? Furthermore, are there any plans to set up a know-how fund to help Cambodia towards its economic reconstruction?
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, the recognition of Cambodia remains for the future. The know-how fund was specifically designed for East European countries and the USSR to help their transition to market economics and democracy. There are no plans to extend it to other regions. However, we shall be ready with other donors to contribute to Cambodia's reconstruction and development in the context of a comprehensive political settlement.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, can the Minister say whether it is true that the evil Pol Pot and some of his supporters are having a baneful influence in Cambodia and are preventing any advancement toward civilised behaviour?
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, we are greatly encouraged by what is happening. The whereabouts and influence of Pol Pot are uncertain, but I do not believe that he is having a baneful influence. That is reflected in the progress that is being made.
Lord Rea: My Lords, is one of the reasons why the situation now looks better that China has stopped supplying arms secretly to the Khmer Rouge?
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, I believe that that is a contributing factor.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we welcome the progress that is being made and hope that it will continue? However, will he confirm that it is still the view of Her Majesty's Government that in order to have a serious and lasting political and economic reconstruction of Cambodia the continuing presence of the United Nations is absolutely vital?
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, we believe that to be the case for the foreseeable future. The five permanent members of the Security Council, of which we are one, are playing a very important part in the matter at present.
The Lord Bishop of St. Albans: My Lords, I express my gratitude for the Government's support for a political solution; but what are their views concerning urgent relief aid, which is certainly needed for large-scale development in Cambodia? My information is that the condition of over 185,000 displaced people in temporary camps is most serious. Will Her Majesty's Government accept that a key factor in reconstruction is not only urgent relief aid but extensive training for thousands of young Cambodians to enable them to take a full part in the life of the nation? Will they consider helping that process by setting up in Phnom Penh a functioning branch of the British Council?
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for that question. I shall write to him regarding the British Council. I have many figures concerning aid from ourselves and other countries for Cambodia. I believe that £2.25 million has been spent or committed since 1988–89 for humanitarian assistance inside Cambodia and since 1979, £15 million has been spent on humanitarian assistance for non-communist camps along the Thai-Cambodia border.
As regards aid to camps, our support for humanitarian needs for non-communist camps continues. We do not underestimate the scope for diversion of assistance from the civilian population or non-communist camps to military activities and the Khmer Rouge. The United Nations border relief operation (UNBRO) and other multilateral agencies and non-government organisations are doing their utmost to prevent the misuse of Western contributions. However, the only sure way to prevent diversion is to cut off supplies altogether.
Lord Elton: My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government assisting the Government of Thailand in the continuing relief which they give to refugees from Cambodia who cannot be repatriated until the political situation has finally stabilised?
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, I believe that that is the case. However, I must check my information and write to my noble friend.

Mifepristone (RU486)
11.22 a.m.
The Duke of Norfolk The Duke of Norfolk asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are content with the decision to licence the use of Mifepristone (RU486) for abortion, bearing in mind that it is otherwise licensed only in France.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Hooper): My Lords, Mifepristone (RU486) was granted a licence in accordance with the Medicines Act 1968 on 1st July. That followed advice from the Committee on the Safety of Medicines. The use of Mifepristone is subject to the Abortion Act 1967. It will be available only in National Health Service hospitals and places approved by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State under Section 1(3) of the Act.
The Duke of Norfolk: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply, although I find it incomplete. This drug is not authorised in Germany or the United States. It is an experimental drug. Is the noble Baroness aware that when the licensing authority in England looked at the drug, it spent only nine months before giving authorisation for it to be used, whereas the average length of time which a licensing authority takes is 20 months? I do not believe that there has been sufficient experimentation with the drug. It should not be given a general release. Will the noble Baroness comment on that?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, the drug has been put through the standard strict regulatory assessment and has been fully reviewed by the Committee on the Safety of Medicines, which is the department's independent expert group. The noble Duke quoted average figures which take into account the two-stage appeal process in the United Kingdom. However, some 30 per cent. of applications for licences are approved within six to nine months.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm that the drug is being used only under very careful medical supervision in that two doctors must sign the prescription and, indeed, it can be obtained only on prescription and not over the counter?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, indeed. It must be administered in conformity with the rules of the Abortion Act. Furthermore, patients should be fully informed as to the effects of the treatment. Therefore, the company's data sheet used by the doctor makes that quite clear, and there is also a very full patient information leaflet.
Baroness Elles: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the company making the drug has issued a warning that any woman who has an ectopic pregnancy is liable to die on taking that medicine? Is she further aware that in any case where that treatment is being given for termination of a pregnancy, it is essential that the woman has a scan prior to the application of this medical treatment?

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Therefore, is she willing to accept that the National Health Service must provide such a scan if that form of treatment is to be given?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, in any case the use of the drug will be a decision by the doctor and the patient on the basis of full information and the strict regulation which has been referred to. Its use has been approved by the Medicines Control Agency as safe and efficacious for use in terminations up to nine weeks of pregnancy. I have not been advised that other factors are appropriate in the case of ectopic pregnancies, which I understand are the formation of an embryo in the fallopian tube. If there is any other information on that issue, I shall write to my noble friend.
The Earl of Perth: My Lords, is the Minister aware that in a letter to The Times on 17th July Sir Bernard Braine and others expressed grave fears about the consequences which may arise from the drug, including the risk of congenital abnormality? I understand that a tragedy has occurred in France and I have in mind the sad case of the thalidomide children. In the case of a tragedy would the maker of the drug, the doctor, the hospital or the state be responsible? Who would have to compensate?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, as I said, Mifepristone has been rigorously tested. More than 100,000 women worldwide have already received the drug and there is extensive experience in France where it has been administered to 90,000 women. Also, there have been clinical trials in Great Britain involving approximately 1,500 women. The evidence from all those studies was carefully evaluated by the Committee on the Safety of Medicines when it gave advice that the drug could be safely licensed. I understand that it carries fewer risks than other forms of abortion.
Clearly in the event of negligence the normal procedures would apply. Any person who wished to seek compensation would do so through the courts against one of the three bodies to which the noble Earl referred.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, perhaps I may say how much I welcome the clarity with which the Minister has answered these questions. Does she agree that RU486 is now in its 10th year of clinical use and that there is no evidence of any long-term health risk let alone a death, as has been referred to? Secondly, is she aware that there is now a large-scale British multicentre trial of RU486 which, as she said, began in 1987 with a recruitment of volunteers from 13 different NHS hospitals and gynaecological units in England and France? Every possible safety precaution seems to be taken according to the law and the procedures laid down by this Parliament.
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, yes. I happily agree with the noble Lord on this occasion. I draw attention also to the well documented studies in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology of June 1990 on the subject. The death reported in France in April was
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fully considered before the licence was granted in the UK. The woman who died had received a different prostaglandin preparation from that used in the UK and in any event the woman was believed to have an underlying heart disease. We feel that that is a separate example.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that more than two years ago the Food and Drugs Administration in the United States banned the importation of this drug as being dangerous to those who took it?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I understand that clinical trials are taking place in the United States.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, in the light of the information that the Minister has so clearly given us, does she agree that the medical trials that are being extensively carried out involving over 100,000 women worldwide, including 90,000 in France, since the drug was first introduced in Switzerland in 1982, have demonstrated its complete safety? Does she further agree that there is no evidence to suggest that the drug has ever been responsible for foetal malformation? Does she also agree that the use of this drug to induce abortion in early pregnancy is associated with far less risk and much less distress and discomfort to the woman concerned than surgical methods of abortion?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, yes. Whatever view we may take on the issue of abortion, I am sure that we all agree that any abortion which has to be performed should be carried out as early in the pregnancy as possible. Therefore any new safe and effective method of early termination which avoids the use of surgery and a general anaesthetic merits serious consideration. It is only right that doctors and patients should have the maximum choice of available methods and that there should be strict safeguards and controls.
Lord Ashbourne: My Lords, observing that RU486 is designed to kill a baby whose heart has started to beat and that in spite of what has been said no long term study has been carried out on the effects of the drug, are the Government aware that hundreds of thousands of voters have been deeply offended by the Government's failure to oppose the introduction of the drug which they regard as one of the more extreme and distasteful forms of child abuse?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, as I said, all the normal strict rules for the licensing of a drug have been followed in this case. Indeed, over the past 10 years RU486 has been extensively studied in over 20 countries including France, the UK, Holland, Sweden, Switzerland, the USA, China, the USSR and India. Therefore there is considerable experience of the drug.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, before the noble Baroness receives further congratulations perhaps I may go in the opposite direction. Hundreds of thousands of women throughout the country will be appalled by the Minister's replies this morning on behalf of the Government to the Question tabled by

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the noble Duke. Is the noble Baroness aware that people still remember the tragic events that followed the use of other insufficiently tried drugs? They are asking why the women of Britain should again be used as guinea pigs in premature experiments. The question will be asked as to who will be responsible for the tragic events that arise from the premature use of the drug.
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, the question of responsibility as a result of any negligence that is proved must be a decision for the courts. It would be open to anyone applying for damages to apply against either the company involved in the production or the medical advisers concerned if that is the area in which the negligence is presumed.
Lord Jenkins of Hillhead: My Lords, may I, on the contrary, congratulate the Minister on the clarity and firmness of her replies? As the exchange continues does it not appear to be increasingly the case that objection to the drug is not that it is dangerous but that it is efficient?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, yes.
Lord Rea: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Duke and his friends on their persistence in pursuing the interests of the leader of their Church but not their congregation. Does the noble Baroness agree that, where a woman requires a legal abortion and has sought it, on health grounds it is far better that that should take place as early as possible in the pregnancy? Does not the existence of the drug Mifepristone, now fully endorsed by the Medicines Control Agency and the Committee on the Safety of Medicines, make it easier for that woman to obtain an early abortion?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, again my answer must be yes.

Standing Orders (Public Business)
11.35 a.m.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. This standing order follows the recommendation of the Third Report of the Procedure Committee to which your Lordships agreed yesterday.
While on the subject of standing orders perhaps I may be allowed to correct an answer which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, on 15th July (at col. 13 of Hansard) when seeking agreement to a new Private Bill Standing Order No. 27A. The noble Lord asked whether when Private Bill standing orders were re-edited and re-issued that standing order would be renumbered 28. I told him that that would be so, but I was wrong. Private Bill standing orders apply to both Houses and are extensively used by parliamentary agents and the parliamentary Bar. It would cause confusion and expense to renumber them and it has never been the practice to do so. I apologise to the House and particularly to the noble Lord. I am grateful for this opportunity to set the record right.
Moved, That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:
After Standing Order 64E:
Insert the following new Standing Order:
Concurrent
Meetings,
25th July 1991.
64A Any Select Committee of the House shall have leave to confer and meet concurrently with any Committee or Sub-Committee of the Commons appointed to consider a similar matter, for the purpose of deliberating or taking evidence, and may communicate to any such Committee or Sub-Committee its evidence or any other documents relating to matters of common interest. Any Select Committee of the House shall also have leave to give this power to confer and meet concurrently to any Sub-Committee appointed by it. —(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time. —(Lord Brabazon of Tara.)
On Question, Bill read a second time: Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution of 16th July), Bill read a third time, and passed.

Lords Expenses
11.38 a.m.
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The resolution before the House makes a minor change to the arrangements for the overnight expenses allowance to correct a long-standing problem in relation to Peers serving on Select Committees. The problem was drawn to my attention by the Chairman of Committees, the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare.
The problem arises because Peers who live a long way from London sometimes find it necessary to stay in London on the night before a series of sitting days because of an early start in committee on the first day. They may also need to stay here on the night of the final sitting day because of a late finish as well as on the intervening nights. In such circumstances Peers stay in London for one more night than the number of sitting days. But under the existing resolutions Peers can claim overnight expenses only for the number of days on which the House sits. Peers serving on committees may therefore be out of pocket.
This resolution makes provision for Peers where necessary to claim overnight expenses on the night before a sitting of a committee of this House. The general rule that Lords' allowances should be directly linked to attendances at sitting days of the House has served us well. It is not intended to change this rule except in the specific circumstances which I have described. All claims from Peers sitting on committees will be subject to the approval of the Leave of Absence and Lords' Expenses Committee.

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I hope that your Lordships will agree that this change is sensible and I commend the resolution to the House.
Moved, That as from 1st August 1991—
(1) Members of this House, except any Lord who receives a salary under the Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975 and the Chairman and Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees, shall be entitled to recover (in addition to the costs of travel for which other provision is made) expenses certified by them as —(a) expenses incurred (otherwise than as mentioned in sub-paragraph (b) below) for the purpose of attendance at sittings of this House or of Committees of this House, or (b) expenses incurred in staying overnight away from their only or main residence where it is necessary to do so for that purpose. (2) The amount which a Lord may recover under paragraph (1) (a) of this Resolution shall not exceed the maximum daily amount for each day of attendance at a sitting of this House or of a Committee of this House. (3) In paragraph (2) of this Resolution and this paragraph "the maximum daily amount" means—(a) for a day in the year beginning with 1st August 1991, £29, and (b) for a day in any subsequent year, the amount obtained by increasing what was the maximum daily amount for a day in July of the immediately preceding year by the percentage (if any) by which the rate of day subsistence allowance payable for an absence of more than ten hours in the case of a member of the Home Civil Service of the highest subsistence classification was increased as from the end of that July. (4) The amount which a Lord may recover under paragraph (1) (b) of this Resolution shall not exceed the maximum daily amount for—(a) each day of attendance at a sitting of this House or of a Committee of this House, and (b) each other day which falls immediately before a day of attendance at a sitting of a Committee of this House if the Lord incurs expenses in staying overnight away from his only or main residence before the sitting and it is necessary for him to do so for the purpose of attendance at the sitting. (5) In paragraph (4) of this Resolution and this paragraph "the maximum daily amount" means—(a) for a day in the year beginning with 1st August 1991, £68, and (b) for a day in any subsequent year, the amount obtained by increasing what was the maximum daily amount for a day in July of the immediately preceding year by the percentage (if any) by which the highest Inner London rate of night subsistence allowance payable to a member of the Home Civil Service was increased as from the end of that July. (6) For the purposes of this Resolution —(a) any fraction of a pound in an amount obtained under paragraph (3) (b) or (5) (b) shall be treated as a whole pound if it is not less than fifty pence, but shall otherwise be disregarded, (b) references to a sitting of this House or of a Committee of this House do not include references to a judicial sitting, and (c) "year" means a year beginning with 1st August.—(Lord Waddington.)
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, perhaps I may offer a brief comment on the Motion. I draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the cost of coming
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to attend to the business of your Lordships' House is rising all the time. Claims for reimbursement can now amount to a considerable sum each time. I draw attention to the anomaly which exists. Members of another place can claim their expenses whether they are incurred or not; civil servants can get an advance on expenses, but we work on a reimbursement basis. That means that on the basis of monthly claims we are giving an interest-free loan to the Treasury amounting in total to a very large sum indeed. I make no complaint. I have no proposal to make. I mention the fact as yet another virtue attaching to life in the House of Lords.
Lord Gisborough: My Lords, I do not wish to oppose the Motion. However, I wish to draw attention to paragraphs (3) (b) and (5) (b). Both paragraphs are sheer gobbledegook. I know that I am not a very clever fellow, but I believe that other noble Lords cannot understand those paragraphs. It is not good English and anyone who can work out the meaning of the paragraphs is quite a genius. It behoves the writers of these documents to use good English which one can understand.
Baroness Phillips: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene to say that this is an opportunity to put on record the fact that Peers do not receive a salary of £100 a day, as is frequently propagated by a certain Member of the other place. It is important to make clear that we merely receive reimbursement expenses.
Baroness White: My Lords, can the noble Lord the Leader of the House say whether any attention is being paid to the other daily allowance for secretarial and comparable expenses? Is he aware that the cost of postage is due to rise in September? The costs of secretarial services are certainly not decreasing and in some aspects they are increasing. Can the noble Lord say whether any consideration is being given to that item?
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, before my noble friend answers the questions, perhaps I may support the suggestion made by the noble Baroness. The secretarial allowance is very modest and has the great disadvantage of relating only to the days when the House is sitting, plus a week at each end of the Recess. On the whole, it is unlikely that your Lordships would sack your secretaries when we reach the beginning of August with a view to re-engaging them on 7th October. Therefore, I wonder whether both the amount of the secretarial allowance and the period in respect of which it can be claimed are being looked at. As the noble Baroness rightly said, the cost of secretarial assistance is rising. It is absolutely essential to noble Lords who desire to take a full part in the proceedings of the House to have that assistance.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, as regards the point made about the secretarial allowance, is the Minister aware that it was only a short time ago that there was an extension which permitted Members of this House to draw that allowance for a limited number of days during the holiday period? I believe that the period is 18 days broken up into six three-day

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weeks. We do not work a three-day week except for a very short period after the Queen's Speech. In the main we work a four-day week. Can the noble Lord say why consideration has not been given to putting this limited expense in line with a four-day week instead of a three-day week?
Lord Waddington: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, Lord Dean of Beswick, to my noble friends Lord Gisborough and Lord Boyd-Carpenter, and to the noble Baroness Lady Phillips and Lady White. They all raised important points. It is useful to get on record, for example, that we are only paid for expenses incurred in getting here unless we are office holders. It is right that the public should know how modest the allowances are. It is also right that the House should realise that this is a modest proposal. It is the only specific proposal that was put to me. I am here only to explain to the House that a proposition was put to me by my noble friend Lord Aberdare and that the Government have acted on it. All the other matters which have been raised concerning the secretarial allowance, and the rest, can be discussed in good time. I am sure that the various points which have been raised by noble Lords will be borne very much in mind.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Education (Assisted Places) (Amendment) Regulations 1991
11.45 a.m.
Baroness Baroness Match rose to move, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 2nd July be approved [25th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Baroness said: The draft regulations provide for certain small amendments, which I will describe, to be made to the Education (Assisted Places) Regulations 1989. The assisted places scheme is now in its 10th year. It was established in 1981 for the purpose of widening the educational opportunities of able children from less well-off families. It provides their parents with assistance towards the fees of some of the best independent schools in the country. The assistance is on a sliding scale based on parental income and the principal changes embodied in the amending regulations are concerned with the annual revision of those scales.
The other amendments are technical amendments to keep the definition of "total parental income" for the purposes of the scheme constant as tax legislation changes. This year one such amendment also takes account of the position of APS parents who are eligible for relief on single gifts made by individuals to charities in pursuance of Section 25 of the Finance Act 1990. However, I am sure that noble Lords will find the amendments I shall describe as quite straightforward.
Regulation 1 of the draft regulations deals with citation, commencement, application and interpretation. The regulations are to come into force on 30th August 1991. Regulation 2 of the draft regulations
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updates the 1989 regulations to take account of the introduction of residence orders made under the Children Act 1989 and allows for the repeal of the Children Act 1975 by the 1989 Act. This is a technical amendment which will enable the effect of residence orders under the new Act to be recognised when that Act comes into force. Custodianship orders under the 1975 Act will continue to have effect despite its repeal and the regulations reflect that.
Regulation 3 of the draft regulations uprates the amount of the allowance that can be deducted from parents' total relevant income for each dependent child, other than the assisted place holder, in the family. The amount is raised from £1,000 to £1,065; that is, by the same percentage which applies to the uprating of the income scales to which I shall address myself in a moment. This allowance is helpful to parents with large families and uprating it will ensure that their position is not worsened.
Regulation 4 amends Regulation 19 of the principal regulations which is concerned with recruitment to assisted places. Regulation 19 requires schools to select at least 60 per cent. of their assisted pupils from publicly maintained schools. This requirement lies at the heart of the scheme and reflects the aim to give priority to those children from less well-off families who would otherwise have gone to such schools and would not have had the opportunity of an independent school education. The amendment will allow a pupil at the school (whether he is assisted or not) to have the benefit of an assisted place later in his school career, if that becomes necessary, provided he originally came from a publicly maintained school. It will help in those cases of hardship which arise from time to time. Generally, schools have little trouble in recruiting at least 60 per cent. of their assisted pupils from state schools. Indeed, the average for the scheme as a whole is over 70 per cent.
Regulation 5 of the draft regulations is a small technical amendment and updates the 1989 regulations so as to discount deductions from total income allowed on donations to charity by individuals under the gift aid scheme. Regulation 6 sets out the income scale used for assessing parents' contributions towards fees. This year this has been uprated to take account of the movement in the retail prices index to April this year and the figure is 6.4 per cent. At a time of rapidly falling inflation, I believe this revaluation of the income bands to a current level of inflation, rather than the method used in former years which would have resulted in an uplift of 9.8 per cent., to be an equitable measure to ensure that a proper balance is struck between the contributions that parents can reasonably be expected to afford and the need for taxpayers' money to be used prudently and with maximum effect.
The effect of this amendment will be to call for a slightly larger contribution from parents, but it still represents an excellent opportunity for their children to benefit from the type of education offered at the schools which participate in the scheme. It ensures that a proper balance is struck between the contributions that parents can reasonably be expected to afford and the need for taxpayers' money to be used

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prudently and with maximum effect. This revaluation of the income bands therefore represents an equitable measure to ensure that balance is even. The threshold at or below which parents pay nothing towards fees is raised from £8,200 to £8,714 and will mean that approximately one-third of all parents will still qualify for full fee remission. The threshold is set deliberately low so that the least well-off benefit most. In cases where there are more than three assisted pupils in a family, provision is made for fees in respect of the fourth and subsequent child to be wholly remitted.
The provisions and amendments I have just described will ensure the continued smooth running of the assisted places scheme and I trust they will find favour with noble Lords.
Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 2nd July be approved [25th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Blatch.)
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the regulations and the amendments to them. It will come as no surprise to your Lordships that on this side of the House we have difficulties with the regulations. The reason we have difficulties is that we consider that the assisted places scheme was misconceived from the start and has totally failed in its objectives. The main reason that we have always opposed the scheme is that it undermines the state schools because it creams off able pupils.
I begin by asking the Minister how she would feel as a head teacher trying to achieve high standards and good results when this scheme picks off two or three of her most able pupils. Would not the Minister feel at least a little disappointed, if not resentful, in those circumstances? I say that because very bright and highly motivated pupils are valuable in any school, not just in their own right but because of the standards they set for other pupils and the effect that they can have in the development of the ethos of the school and the development of commitment to study among other pupils. The introduction of the new system of publishing examination results will make teachers in the state system even more resentful when faced with the creaming off process. I ask how the Minister would feel not rhetorically but expecting an answer. I hope the answer will demonstrate some sympathy for heads and their staff in state schools when that happens to them.
The second reason why we oppose the scheme and are therefore unhappy about the regulations is that it undermines state schools by implicitly suggesting that clever children who obtain assisted places will get a better education in private schools. If that is true, is it not a serious indictment of the Government who have overall responsibility for our state schools? Why, after 12 years, have the Government failed to ensure that we have a secondary school system which can successfully cater for bright children from working-class homes, or from any other background? Have the German or French Governments, or any other European government, developed an assisted places scheme which syphons off bright children from state schools? Of course they have not. In Europe governments are focusing attention on providing high
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quality state schools. Moreover, Ministers in those countries send their own children to state schools. I look forward to the day when Conservative Ministers do so here.
The third reason for our anxieties on these Benches is that the scheme is a failure on its own terms. It set out to support children from working-class back-grounds by providing funds to cover their fees in independent schools. Does the Minister accept the findings of independent research on the scheme which shows that more than 50 per cent. of the parents on the scheme come from professional and managerial backgrounds and only 7 per cent. from manual backgrounds? Does the Minister accept the finding that 63 per cent. of mothers and 51 per cent. of fathers of pupils on the scheme attended an independent or selective school? The scheme is supporting middle-class parents, many of whom went to independent schools themselves, who have fallen on hard times and therefore have relatively low incomes. The research also shows that a higher proportion of the pupils on the scheme than would be expected in the population as a whole are the children of broken marriages being brought up by their mothers. I should like to know from the Minister whether the father's income is always—I underline "always"—taken into account in assessing income levels for the scheme, even where children are living with their mothers. Surely it should always be taken into account.
When presenting these regulations the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in another place made a great deal of the fact that the cost of the scheme is not very great, comparing the average cost of an assisted place with the average cost of educating a pupil in a state secondary school. If I may say so, that just will not wash. It is an unacceptable argument for the reasons I have already given. The scheme is damaging to morale and to standards in the state system far beyond its actual cost.
There is another technical reason why these figures are nonsense. The Minister will surely agree that there are many spare places in state secondary schools. She and her colleagues are always reminding us of that fact and criticising local education authorities for not taking surplus places out of the system. Therefore, the cost of educating an extra pupil is small. In those circumstances, does not the Minister agree that the relevant comparison is not between the average cost of an assisted place and the average cost of a state secondary school place, but between the average cost of an assisted place and the marginal cost of a state secondary school place? As there are surplus places in secondary schools, will the Minister comment on the fact that in some private schools as many as one-third of places are maintained by the taxpayer through the assisted places scheme? With proportions as high as that, there must be some question about whether those schools would be viable without the scheme. Why should the taxpayer be propping up independent schools in this way when there are many spare places in state secondary schools?
I turn to one or two specific points. Have I correctly understood that the existing regulations allow up to 40 per cent. of pupils on the scheme to be recruited from

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independent schools? Am I also correct in assuming that under the new regulations parents of pupils already attending existing independent schools can apply for an assisted place if their income falls, provided their son or daughter came from a publicly maintained school originally? If that is the case, in both respects is it not yet another example of the scheme supporting parents who already use the private school system? I cannot believe that that was originally intended when the scheme was set up.On a different matter, am I right in assuming that the regulations sanction fee increases for the purposes of the scheme of up to 12 per cent? Inflation over the past year may have been high because of the Government's mishandling of the economy, but it certainly was not 12 per cent.
There is nothing in the regulations that I can welcome. They relate to a deeply flawed scheme; a scheme that I know many fair-minded teachers in independent schools believe to be both unfair and wrong in principle. After 10 years there is no consensus of support for the scheme in any part of the education system. It is a divisive scheme. It is a scheme with low take-up in some parts of the country, especially among those groups that it was originally designed to help. But, most of all, is it not extra ordinary that the Government continue with the scheme after the Education Reform Act 1988 of which they are so proud and which was meant to do so much for standards and qualities in publicly-maintained schools?
Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe: My Lords, although I would not disagree with the thrust of my noble friend's arguments from the Front Bench, I ask the House whether we cannot clear out of our vocabulary on this subject the phrase "bright children". The other side of this coin is dull children. More than 20 years ago in another place I made my maiden speech on the Education (Handicapped Children) Bill. If we do not use a different vocabulary, we simply reinforce all the old stereotypes and prejudices which have made it so difficult to better the lot of the children who are less fortunate and less gifted.
12 midday
Baroness Blotch: My Lords, I note what the noble Lord, Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe, says about terminology. While I share his concern on that matter, I believe that we have just had an indulgence in class politics of the worst kind. It has been unadulterated politics of envy. These regulations are technical regulations. We have before us today adjustments and upratings for a scheme that is already in place and on which the philosophical arguments have already taken place in both Houses.
I am unapologetic about the scheme. On this side of the House we advocate pluralism. We live happily with the private sector and the state sector. Within the state sector we live happily with comprehensive schools, grammar schools, CTCs and grant maintained schools. We believe that that is a very good thing. If I were the head teacher looking at this scheme and if I were concerned about all children, I would
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think that these young people were being given an opportunity. I would see it as an opportunity and a challenge to the education system. I am not sure that I would be jealous or envious. The effect of creaming off from other schools is so negligible as to have almost no effect at all. The scheme is an opportunity for families.
On the question of statistics, I do not class people as coming from middle class, upper class or lower class homes. I do not indulge in that kind of terminology about people. One-third of all children who benefit from the scheme come from families with incomes of £8,034 or less. For two-thirds of the children who benefit from the scheme the family income taken into account is less than £13,043. Only a small number come from families where the income is £15,000 and above. The scheme is meant for children from low income families. It provides excellent educational opportunities for them. I believe that the scheme should be supported.
The other points raised by the noble Baroness relate to the philosophical argument. The only other technical point concerned the income of the father. The income of the father is not taken into account where parents are legally separated or divorced—in other words, where the father is not the responsible parent at the time. In all other cases the income of both parents must be declared. I hope that the House will accept the regulations.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Israel: Security Council Resolutions
12.3 p.m.
Lord Mayhew Lord Mayhew rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to secure the implementation of the resolutions of the UN Security Council relating to Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, Golan and South Lebanon.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, on 9th March, in his address to Congress, President Bush said:
"The time has come to put an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict".
He said that the settlement,
"must be grounded in United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 and the principle of territory for peace".
With that aim, Mr. Baker has proposed a Middle East conference, to include the United States, the Soviet Union, the Egyptians, Israel and her neighbours, with representatives of the Palestinians and observers from the European Community and the United Nations. Support for this American initiative is virtually unanimous throughout the world. Never before has there been such a consensus throughout the world as to the next steps needed to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict. I note today the publication of a report by the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs of another place which warmly endorses and supports the American initiative.
As we know, Resolution 242 provides for acknowledgement of,
"the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognised boundaries".

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But it also confirms,
"the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war",
and demands the,
"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict".
Versions of the resolution in the other official languages of the Security Council demand withdrawal from "the territories"—meaning all the territories. But the English version, I think rightly, makes allowance for frontier rectification by mutual agreement.
No one should suppose that the Israelis as a whole oppose either the American initiative or the concept of land for peace. On the contrary, there is much support inside Israel for both. Indeed the Israeli Labour Party is committed to working towards both. Support inside the Jewish communities outside Israel also exists. Many Jewish people are deeply dissatisfied with the status quo. One of those dissatisfied is our colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Jakobovits, who recently described Israel's approach to the Palestinian problem as "blinkered" and "self-destructive". He said:
"We cannot forever dominate a million and a half Palestinians, lording it over them".
From where then does the opposition come to the American initiative and to the implementation of United Nations resolutions? It comes from Mr. Shamir's Right-wing Likud government, who rely for their narrow majority in the Knesset on a very small number of religious extremists, a number of whom, including the Israeli Minister of the Interior, are at present being investigated by the police on suspicion of financial corruption. That government publicly and persistently reject the principle of trading land for peace, as embodied in Resolution 242. They persistently defy the authority of the Security Council. They reject any role for the United Nations in trying to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict. They also persistently breach the Geneva Conventions. Altogether, 64 resolutions critical of Israel have been passed by the Security Council and there would be 29 more if the consensus of the Security Council had not been frustrated by the American veto.
Recently, Mr. Shamir's government have been putting forward one objection after another to the American proposal. The current objection is over the presence of a Palestinian representative residing in East Jerusalem. Israel's claim that control over the Holy City must be exclusively Jewish has been unanimously rejected by the Security Council. Nevertheless, some compromise may be reached on this point, in which case, unfortunately, if we allow the past to be our guide, Israel will in due course raise other difficulties, time will pass and the momentum of the peace process will be lost.
We have this extraordinary phenomenon of a government representing barely half of a very small people persistently flouting international law and world opinion. Therefore we must carefully examine the reasons for it. There are two substantive reasons. First, many Israeli Jews, especially those living in the settlements in the occupied territories, believe with complete sincerity that the occupied territories are theirs by right because they were promised to their
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forefather, Abraham, by Jehovah. That is a religious as well as a political conviction and therefore must be spoken about with respect. Nevertheless, those who are not devout Jews are unlikely to agree that a promise made in biblical times, however well documented, can justify the acquisition of territory by conquest in the 20th century. Nor does even the most devout Jew claim that the promise to Abraham included Gaza, Golan and South Lebanon.
Far more important as a reason for Israel's conduct is the sincere belief that trading land for peace will undermine its security, which everyone agrees must be guaranteed. On security, the Israelis have broadly two choices. First, they can rely, as they have done successfully until now, on their military superiority. They have a nuclear monopoly in the region; they have the qualitative edge militarily over any combination of Arab countries; and the Americans have publicly pledged to assist in maintaining that qualitative edge for an indefinite period. They also have, for the moment at least, suppressed the intifada with ruthless efficiency. Moreover their conquests have removed potential enemies far from their frontiers, in the north, the east and the south. Helped by the chronic divisions in the Arab world and by the defeat of their most powerful enemy, Iraq, it is easy to believe that this strategy of living by the sword can ensure the physical security in Israel for many years to come.
However, it also ensures mounting bitterness and hostility in the Arab and Islamic world and further alienation from Israel's natural friends and it ignores the long-term trends in the balance of power: the advent of the missile age, the relative advance of the Arab world in wealth, arms, technology, education, diplomacy, population and even propaganda.
I believe that it is worth reflecting on the trend of military engagements in the past decades. In 1956, when the Israelis attacked Egypt, it was a walk-over. In 1967 their strike against Egypt was a clear success. In 1973 when Egypt attacked Israel it was a close-run thing. In 1982 Israel's invasion in the Lebanon was a military failure. The Foreign Secretary, Mr. Douglas Hurd, recently said:
"Israel cannot in the long run rest its security on the occupation of Arab lands".
There is an alternative. That alternative offers Israel the prospect of permanent acceptance in the region and permanent peace. The alternative is to back the American initiative wholeheartedly, to trade land for peace and, in return, to demand permanent watertight guarantees of its security from, among other countries, the United States and Europe. That is not only practicable; it is on offer. No one would accept that more readily than the Palestinians.
Perhaps I may quote from the evidence given to the Commons Select Committee by the PLO representative in Britain, Mr. Afif Safieh. In line with official PLO policy he said:
"Concerning the militarisation of the [Palestinian] state … we would like to have what is needed for that state to ensure law and order within it and not beyond. We are ready to accept the stationing of UN forces on our Palestinian territory [even] if the other side does not want them to be also on theirs,

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and we will accept that the removal of those UN troops … [necessitates] … the unanimous consent of the Security Council".
He went on to say with reference to a formal military alliance between Israel and the United States:
"I would welcome such a formula of an American guarantee and, if need be, an American presence as a tranquillising factor if this can bring us, the Palestinians, a 2-state solution".
Elsewhere in his evidence Mr. Safieh (again in line with PLO policy) said:
"In the future we can explore formulae taken from the EEC experience or the Benelux experience for regional co-operation and economic integration in the area, and I think to our mutual advantage we will also be aiming for an Israel/Palestine/Jordan confederal link or economic co-operation".
Surely, given the choice between these two approaches to security it must be clear that the Israelis should chose the second course. It is vital not just for the Palestinians or for the future credibility of the United Nations; it is also vital for the Israelis.
How then can we hope to overcome the Israeli resistance? There is persuasion and then, beyond persuasion, there is pressure; and beyond pressure there is coercion. I ask the Government to tell us where they stand on that aspect.
I was a little shaken in January to receive a letter from the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, in which he said any proposals for ending the Israeli occupation,
"must be freely accepted by Israel".
I wonder whether the implications of that have really been thought through. In effect, it gives Israel a veto on proposals for ending the occupation. Moreover, it also gives Israel a veto on Security Council resolutions. If that is the case, we might as well give up the Security Council. Is that the serious view of the Government? Further, does the policy apply to all countries? I do not remember the Minister saying that proposals for ending the Kuwaiti occupation must be freely accepted by Saddam Hussein.
Persuasion has been tried over many years by successive Presidents of the United States who have urged Israel to observe the Security Council resolutions; to end the settlements policy; to stop deportation of Palestinians from their native land; not to invade Lebanon, and so on. All that has proved to be no good. The policy of all carrots and no sticks has been tried for many years and it has failed. Therefore, the time has now come to move from persuasion to pressure.
There need be no question here of economic sanctions such as were used against Iraq, let alone military sanctions. When Eisenhower pressed Israel to withdraw from the Suez Canal after the Suez crisis, he did not threaten economic sanctions; he simply said that if the Israelis did not withdraw he could not maintain the enormous level of financial aid going to Israel. That is all he said. But it worked immediately; Israel withdrew immediately. Now is the time for President Bush to do the same. I note that the report of the Commons Select Committee which was published today says:
"Israel is now asking to receive further help from the United States including $10 billion in loan guarantees. This provides an opportunity for stronger American pressure on Israel and is an opportunity which the United States Government should be prepared to use.
However, as we all know, the problem is the Israeli lobby in Washington. Everyone knows that. We have to bear in mind that Capitol Hill also is Israeli-occupied territory. The lobby has the American Congress under its thumb and is probably stronger today than ever before. In an earlier debate in this place I gave details about how this pressure is exerted, details about votes, about media coverage, about deputations and about money. I explained how 4 million dollars was distributed by the Israeli lobby last year among individual senators and representatives. That is public knowledge; indeed, it is not challenged. If I have a criticism of the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee it is that it did not investigate that key factor in the Middle East situation. It went to Washington, but it did not, for instance, take evidence from the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee. It did not ask it about its subsidies to senators and congressmen and how it used senators and congressmen. That is a difficult subject, one might have thought, to talk about, but it is an essential element in the problem that we face. I am sorry that the Commons Select Committee did not go into it.
Sadly, it may prove that the lobby has the power to prevent the American initiative succeeding. We must do all that we can to prevent that. The European Community and the United Kingdom can help. Again, the Foreign Affairs Select Committee stated:
"It remains essential for the United Kingdom and its EC partners to bolster US efforts and to insist that the peace process be kept alive … If the US initiative fails, then EC members should consider a fresh initiative".
I strongly believe that that is the right approach.
The EC takes 50 per cent. of Israel's exports and has granted it important trade privileges. It was undoubtedly awareness of that which led the Israelis to agree to a Community presence at the proposed Middle East conference. In support of United Nations resolutions in the cause of justice and peace, the European Community should not hold back from strong measures.
At the time of the Gulf war, we had high hopes of a new world order. We hoped that the time had come when the United Nations could fulfil the role for itself envisaged when the Charter was signed. Palestine now provides a test case. The United Nations must succeed. The American initiative must succeed. If they fail, the only beneficiaries will be the Islamic fundamentalists, the Jewish fundamentalists and the arms dealers. We must not allow the initiative to fail.
12.22 p.m.
Lord Beloff: My Lords, it is an agreeable custom of your Lordships' House that subsequent speakers thank the noble Lord whose Question has led to a debate. I propose to depart from that custom because I regret that the debate is taking place. Some weeks ago when I believe the Question was tabled, it was reasonable to call attention to a situation which appeared to be in deadlock, and there were things which might perhaps usefully have been said; but today the situation is different.
Important negotiations are continuing in several capitals, daily and hourly. Those of us who believe in the absolute necessity of a peaceful settlement of the

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dispute are holding our breath to see whether anything comes of them. What could be less appropriate than for a speaker in your Lordships' House to embark upon a wholly one-sided account of what has happened and what is now taking place?
I am of course not surprised that the noble Lord, having decided to keep his Question on the Order Paper, should have taken the line that he does; but it is a dangerous line. I believe that he owes the beginnings of his ministerial political career to Ernest Bevin, the man who, more than anyone else, historians will find was at the root of the problem that we now face, because his espousal of the Arab cause, when the Arab countries tried to strangle the infant state of Israel, motivated by a curious mixture of uncomprehending imperial thinking and personal anti-Semitism, was always dangerous. It was not dangerous to Israel; Israel survived the assault, as it has survived subsequent assaults. One might have thought from what the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, said that Israel initiated the conquest of the territories in 1967 when the attack was made upon it by Jordan, despite every appeal that it should not enter the conflict.
It is not Israel which has been damaged; it is ultimately the Arab cause, because every time a speech is made along the lines of that of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, they are encouraged to believe that they can hold out for more than they can reasonably expect. It is an encouragement to hard-liners in the Arab world and, by reflection obviously, an encouragement to hard-liners in the Jewish community, both in Israel and in the diaspora. It leads many of us—I am, as people will know from my previous speeches, a total "dove" in Israeli terms—to be enormously surprised that, despite Arafat's espousal of Saddam Hussein's cause in the Gulf war, he is retained as the leader of an organisation by those who wish to take part in the negotiations and who say that he still claims their allegiance.
It is a fact, undenied I think, that the PLO charter retains the demand for the abolition of the state of Israel. When pressed upon it PLO representatives will say only, "Well, at any rate, we are now prepared to settle, as a first stage, for the two-state solution".
The Jewish lobby's importance in American opinion is considerable, but nothing like to the extent that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, would have us believe. The vast body of American opinion, which is non-Jewish—after all, the Jewish population in the United States is confined to a number of large metropolitan centres—and is far away from those centres, has always regarded the establishment of the state of Israel as something with which it has, and retains, an instinctive sympathy. It does not need money to persuade it of something it already believes. But we also have the possibility—and it is perfectly fair to say this—that the knowledge that that American support is so widespread may encourage a harder line on the part of the Israeli government than many of us would wish to see them take.
It is equally true that the Arab lobby in this country, which is rarely talked about but of which the
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noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, is a competent exponent, has consistently tried to prevent concessions being made which might help to normalise the situation and which, as has been pointed out in a recent exchange in your Lordships' House, has had sufficient influence on Her Majesty's Government to prevent them repudiating British firms' participation in the boycott of Israeli trade while other friendly countries do not allow their firms to discriminate in that way.
We have two lobbies. It would have been better if neither of them was taking part in a debate which in the end must be settled on the ground by common sense.
I thank God that I am not in Mr. Shamir's position. There are understandable reasons why I take a different line from him on the problem of representation. It could be argued that to admit the presence on the Palestinian delegation of those resident in East Jerusalem to some extent gives rise to the belief that what is intended is a renewed partition of that city. The rejoicing generally in the world at the demolition of the Berlin Wall could surely not now turn into admiration at the building of a wall in Jerusalem.
Jerusalem must and surely will remain a single city. That does not necessarily mean that the hopes of the Palestinians, if they have a state, to have Jerusalem as its capital need be thwarted. It would be perfectly possible in a more rational and peaceful world for both Israel and a Palestinian state, if they wished, to have the headquarters of their governments, their parliaments and their ministries in Jerusalem, while at the same time it remained a united city.
I should also have hoped that one of the causes of friction —the religious element to which the noble Lord referred—might have been tackled by what was implicit or explicit in many of the early approaches to the problem by the United Nations. That is, that some kind of joint religious oversight of the holy places of the three great monotheistic religions which look to Jerusalem would be possible. Unfortunately, the hostility of the Vatican to the Israeli state, which it still does not recognise, makes this an even more remote hope than the possibility of an accommodation between Israelis and Palestinians on the ground.
As the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, pointed out, there is the possibility of various forms of combination between the peoples of the area, particularly in economics. If one were looking at the Middle East from more of a distance, one might say that the two peoples who would benefit most from peace are the Israelis and the Palestinians. That is because the Palestinians, like the Israelis, have a large and to some extent (considering what they have in the way of resources) almost too large an educated, entrepreneurial population. The tragedy of the Palestinians of Kuwait is very much in our minds.
With great and remarkable persistence, the United States is now trying to bring these possibilities to fruition. We hope, and have every reason to believe, that in so far as Her Majesty's Government and the European Community have any influence, they will bring it to bear. However, it is not possible to make this division between security depending on strength

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and security depending on agreements because, as the Gulf war revealed, there is no guarantee to anyone of a permanent element of reconciliation between Israel and some Arab states. After all, they were not referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, but many of us recollect the missile attacks by Saddam Hussein on the territory of Israel and the applause which those attacks engendered among some of the people with whom one is now trying to make peace.
We cannot hope too strongly—and the hope has been expressed by Mr. Shamir—that President Assad has had a change of heart. One can understand his territorial claims, and so forth, but we hope that he is prepared to do what only Egypt among the Arab countries has so far been prepared to do: to recognise Israel as a permanent feature on the map of the part of the world in which his country is sited.
I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, will expand on the security problems with an authority which I do not command. It is at least understandable, given the strength of Syria's armed forces and her recent acquisition of further armaments, that there should be some doubt in Israeli minds as to how far this is more than a diplomatic turn. We must all try our best to bring about the maximum degree of good feeling wherever we have any influence. That is why I repeat my regrets that the speed of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, was addressed to American Jewry, over whom he probably has little influence, and not to Arabs who owe him for the presentation of their cause. That cause has a great deal to be said for it, particularly in the occupied territories. I regret that the noble Lord did not appeal to them to do their utmost to allay the fears which stand in the way of the peaceful settlement we all wish so much to see.
12.36 p.m.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, I wish first to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, on introducing the debate. It is an ancient British tradition accepted over centuries in this noble House for us to do that. On many occasions over the past 10 years I have introduced debates on my own initiative and have been thanked for doing so. That is about all. From then on I have been criticised for everything I have said. Nevertheless, it is remarkable and I hope that we shall never dispense with our old British traditions in this House or anywhere else.
I as saddened by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, about Ernest Bevin. Many noble Lords will recall that he was described by Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill during the war years as "my massive Minister of Labour". Later on, after the war, I was closely associated with Ernest Bevin in this place when it was used by the other place. We can all recall his pathological hatred of communism. He went on to create what we know as NATO.
The contribution of Ernest Bevin to the creation of NATO and his contribution as Winston Churchill's great Minister were remarkable. If Churchill and Bevin had not been successful and NATO had not been created we would not be here discussing events in Israel and the Arab world. There certainly would not
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have been an Israel to argue about. Let us be frank and honest. We may disagree with what is said by people who introduce a debate, but we are provided with the opportunity to criticise everything they say.
I also find these debates somewhat poignant and sorrowful. I can remember when Nazism was growing in the mid-1930s. Some of us from the South Wales trade unions went to Germany to see what was going on and came back shocked and horrified at the most appalling form of racialism we had ever heard. We used to like our inter-team quarrels on the rugby field. We still have the Wars of the Roses between Lancashire and Yorkshire on the cricket field. That is why this nation has made the most marvellous contributions to civilised behaviour in the whole world. If only Israel and the Arabs could accept some of our standards, they would live in a much happier land. It makes me sorrowful to recall that trade unionists in Wales and Scotland came down to London—I had never been to London in my life—and at that time a rich former Labour MP had created the blackshirt Fascist movement. Those of us who went to London had been told that many Jewish people lived in the East End of London. They had moved there to escape the terrors of living in some European countries. I must admit that I could have been arrested and might have been sent to gaol for the part I played in an anti-Fascist demonstration. It makes me sorrowful to recall that some laxity was shown towards the blackshirts in that their demonstration was allowed to pass through Gardeners' Corner. I was present on that occasion as I was trying to stop the Fascist demonstration. I was bashed up by the good old British police. The Fascists claimed that they were exercising their right to abuse Jewish people. One does not easily forget such events.
I remember the emotion that was felt after the war when British people realised what appalling crimes had taken place during the war while we were fighting Fascism. The most appalling crime in the history of mankind had been perpetrated against Jewish people. I am talking about the Holocaust. Those crimes might have continued if the British and the American peoples had not made certain that Fascism was wiped off the face of the earth. There was then the new threat of communism to face. Communism is also anti-Semitic, although it is not as overtly anti-Semitic as Fascism. The big contribution made by Ernest Bevin in fighting communism helped to prevent it from overrunning mankind.
I always considered the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, to be a great Foreign Secretary. He described Ernest Bevin as probably the greatest Foreign Secretary ever as he had the foresight to fight to create NATO. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, was right to say that and I am sure that neither the Arab states nor Israel would have existed had it not been for Bevin's great idea of containing the evils of communism. I heard the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, put his point of view and I state my British point of view.
Many people refer to Mr. Balfour's letter when they are discussing this subject. I understand that it is a letter, although it is described as a declaration. That letter pointed out quite clearly that the British had

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promised to provide a home in the Middle East for Jewish people in the land that was then called Palestine. I have read the letter carefully and it insisted that those who already lived in Palestine should not be disturbed in any way. We must remember that Israel is a tiny country. The letter set out which part of the country should be known as Israel and which parts should remain Palestinian. The only people who have broken the terms of the Balfour Declaration and the United Nations decisions are the Israelis.
Lord Beloff: My Lords, I happen to know the Balfour Declaration almost by heart and there is not a word about the area to be covered because at that time the distinction we now have between Palestine, Transjordan and Syria was still in the melting pot. There is no question of any commitment in the Balfour Declaration to a territorial division.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, the Hansard of that time recorded that Lloyd George made a promise to create the state of Israel. That was done. I am glad no noble Lord disagrees with that. When the state of Israel became a reality, the Arab world started talking about driving the Israelis into the sea. That was a stupid attitude to adopt because it was in defiance of a United Nations declaration. The state of Israel was created by the United Nations. In threatening to drive the Israelis into the sea, the Arabs were defying the United Nations.
However, we must not claim that it is only the Arabs who defy the United Nations. One of the saddest events that I can recall is seeing the effects of the Holocaust in Germany. We who come from the valleys of South Wales are fairly tough, but when we witnessed the effects of the Holocaust we could no longer sleep at night. Literally tens of thousands of human beings had been gassed and brutalised. Their crime was that they had selected Jewish parents. The Holocaust is one of the most terrible events that has ever happened. That abomination was caused by European so-called Christians. I know of not one single Arab who was involved in the Holocaust.
Let us consider what can be done to create a balance in the Middle East. I believe the Arabs have realised that their impertinent resolution to drive the Israelis into the sea had to be dropped. We must try to adopt a fair balance in the Middle East. First and foremost we must acknowledge that Israel was created by the United Nations. We cannot say what a wonderful resolution it was that created Israel while claiming that all the other resolutions that seek to defend the Palestinians are not so wonderful. We cannot expect the Palestinian people to accept such declarations. They have a right to their country and a right to exist. I love my country, the Americans love their country and the Israelis love Israel. We would be the greatest hypocrites in the history of mankind if we denied the Palestinians the right to love their country.
Both the noble Lords, Lord Mayhew and Lord Beloff, have said that we must now endeavour to secure peace in the Middle East. Mr. Shamir is a great Israeli politician. In 1940 he was a Polish citizen. I wonder whether he would be alive today if we had not
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won the Second World War. I believe that that is a fair observation. The same could be said of many others who were Polish citizens in 1940. We achieved great things in the last war and therefore we should be capable of great achievements in the present situation.
We must also acknowledge that it is not always Europeans who cause trouble. The most recent horrible event we have been forced to witness was the attack by an Arab Fascist on another Arab state. We have had to witness the agony that that caused. If we want to prevent similar events occurring in the future, we must stand by United Nations resolutions. I uphold the United Nations resolution that created Israel. I stand by the United Nations Resolutions Nos. 242 and 338 which order the Israelis to return the land they have stolen. If the Israelis do not do that, they will betray the very organisation that created the state of Israel.
I hope those of us who understand some of the problems in the Middle East and who appreciate the contributions made by the Semitic nations will ask Israel to consider its great history and the history of the Arabs. Having done that, they must work together and they must accept criticism as well as praise. They must try to bring about a just peace and to ensure that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are returned to the Palestinians. The Israelis must adhere to UN resolutions as it was the resolutions of the UN that created the state of Israel. I have spoken to young Israelis and they agree with my belief. If the Israelis did what I suggest, it would be a triumph for both Jews and Arabs and for civilised behaviour in the Middle East. That action would be applauded throughout the entire world.
12.49 p.m.
Lord Weidenfeld: My Lords, I must apologise as I may unavoidably have to leave your Lordships' House for part of the debate. However, I very much hope to return to hear the Minister's reply.
The initiative of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, in holding this debate is both timely and seemly. The fate of the American peace effort in the Middle East hangs in the balance. And, as has been pointed out, the noble Lord himself has truly historic credentials for, while serving Mr. Ernest Bevin at the Foreign Office, he was, as it were, present at the creation of both the United Nations and the state of Israel. Like Mr. Bevin, he had great enthusiasm for the former and a wary scepticism about the latter. For nearly half a century he has endorsed many an Arab and especially the Palestinian cause and been in the vanguard of critical opinion against the Jewish State. I respect his consistency and integrity but, if he will forgive me, I fault his judgment.The very thrust of the Question my noble friend has put before us is not to ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to heal the breach between Arabs and Israelis but how they will secure UN resolutions relating to Israel's occupation—an emotive, contested and controversial word—of the West Bank, Gaza, Golan and South Lebanon. Since the focus is on Israel's action and since it is for Jerusalem now to answer in detail Secretary Baker's

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invitation to take part in a new pattern of peace talks, it is fitting to look very briefly at today's Middle East from Israel's vantage point.
Israel has been involved in five wars with its Arab neighbours. Twice, in 1948 and 1973, it defended itself against aggression and won; twice, in 1956 and 1967, it struck pre-emptively and won; and once, in the Gulf war, it was attacked and did not defend itself—the crucial question is, did Israel win or lose?
America has scored an overwhelming technological victory, but what of the political dividends? Saddam Hussein still in power, regrouping the Republican Guard and restructuring his army into five mighty corps with such pointedly defiant names as Nebuchadnezzar and Jerusalem—a message which is not lost on the Israeli Government.
Syria has virtually annexed the Lebanon. If the noble Lord asks for Israeli withdrawal from the Golan Heights and South Lebanon he is virtually saying that Syria's overlordship of the Lebanon must be condoned and the contentious Golan Heights, for 20 years a platform for harassment, infiltration and constant threats to Israeli security, must be surrendered. They must be surrendered to a regime which has little to learn from its fellow Ba'athists in Baghdad about brutality and terror but one which has a great deal to teach them in the art of political histrionics, cunning and patience.
Surely noble Lords will not condemn this or any other Israeli government for being wary of the sudden change of heart on Syria's part. Syria pleaded deprivation and poverty when joining, as a fairly dormant partner, the anti-Saddam alliance. Of the 3 billion dollars it received in aid, about 2 billion dollars has been pledged to North Korea, China and Czechoslovakia for arms of all kinds but especially wide-ranging super-Scuds. Little of that money will land in the pockets of the frugal fellah or the merchant in the bazaar. I believe that the Israeli security zone in South Lebanon should not be evacuated until or unless the future status of Lebanon is clarified within the framework of that comprehensive peace which the United States, the Soviet Union and the Europeans all quite rightly claim to be the ultimate objective.
Nobody doubts that a settlement of the Palestinian question, self-government for the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, is crucially important. UN Resolution 242 dates from a quarter of a century ago. Much water has flowed under the Jordan bridges since. Yet, while I do not for a moment deny the importance of that document—which owed so much to the ingenuity and masterly imprecision of its drafting by two late Members of your Lordships' House, George Brown and Hugh Caradon—it must be brought up to date and the two elements of Israeli security and Palestinian political self-expression more effectively and substantively correlated.
One of the most important issues is whether Israeli concessions will be effectively matched by iron-clad guarantees, both on the part of her Arab neighbours and the international community. Can one blame Israel for its lack of enthusiasm for an international organisation which still has on its statute book the pernicious resolution that Zionism equals racism?
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Would Her Majesty's Government willingly submit to a body which has on its records an obscene condemnation of the British monarchy or the Palace of Westminster? The insistence on the part of Israel on separate negotiations with all her Arab neighbours is neither a tactical ploy nor an unreasonable request. In fact, if we remember the events that led to the Camp David peace treaty with Egypt, it was the bilateral nature of the first phase of that peace process—Sadat's visit to Jerusalem—which eventually brought in the United States as the benevolent and effective mediator who helped to clinch a complex negotiation. I believe that it is essential that that procedure is repeated now; that Israel and Syria, Israel and a free Lebanon, Israel and Jordan, with an acceptable Palestinian delegation, should start to negotiate bilaterally and without undue pressure from outside.
There is a great deal of criticism and demonising of the Shamir government from abroad. The received idea is that it is intransigent, obstreperous, feet dragging or plainly uninterested in the removal of the status quo. It is not procedural wranglings or hairsplitting arguments which have caused the Likud government to be so wary. Behind each code word in the negotiating process looms an existential danger to a small beleaguered country. However, there is no doubt that the Israeli government, public opinion and world Jewry crave peace and compromise. Those on the other side of the conflict and those in the background, like the British Government, should have a compassionate understanding of what is at stake for Israel. They should also see the positive aspects.
There is, after all, lying on the table—and it could easily be served up again—Mr. Shamir's plan for negotiations without preconditions leading to an interim agreement on the West Bank and Gaza which would allow the Palestinians far-reaching autonomy, and, towards the end of the interim period, negotiations for the final settlement of that problem to be conducted. There is no way of saying now what that settlement could be. Anything goes.
A few weeks ago Prime Minister Shamir gave, in my view, a significant interview to Le Monde in which, and I hope I am not misquoting him, he said that, while at the outset he would not be willing to trade land for peace, at the very end of the interim period and at the final negotiations his successor and Israeli public opinion might think very differently.
That seems to be an honest approach. Here is a man brought up in an ideology which proclaims that today's Israel and the West Bank were part of that homeland promised to the Jews by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, not to mention the historic biblical claim to the land of Israel from the river to the sea. For such a man it is just as difficult to relinquish willingly part of his patrimony as it might be for a prince of the Roman Church to add a nihil obstat to his signature in an appeal for legitimised abortion. One may not agree with his views but those views are shared by a large part of the Israeli electorate. It is up to us, who wish for compromise and accommodation,

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to argue and reason and not to condemn dismissively those who have historically arguable and sincerely held beliefs.
I happen to believe that once direct negotiations start between the parties they will take on their own momentum, provided that there is no whiff of the Star Chamber with one nation sitting in the dock and the others sitting in judgment. With those provisos the peace process has a real chance of success.
The question of Palestinian representation has already once proved a stumbling block. Let that not be the case today. I should like to appeal to the Palestinian leaders resident in the West Bank and Gaza to pause and reflect whether the time has not come when they alone should speak for patriotic Palestinians. Men like Faisal al Husseini, Hanna Siniora and Frej, the Christian Mayor of Bethlehem —remarkable men —have all the necessary credentials for leadership, not only on the ground but also on the Middle East and world stage. They should not always refer and defer to Arafat. Can they not distance themselves from the men of Tunis? I say "distance"; I do not say disavow or suggest they befoul their own nests. They should show a degree of realism and statecraft that avoids always hitting the raw nerve of the opponent.
I think that it was Metternich who defined diplomacy as the art of building a ladder for the opponent to climb down gracefully. We need many ladders in the Middle East. Britain and Europe should help to build them and to hold them while the parties step up and down.
A Jordanian-Palestinian delegation is welcome, not only because it allows the Arabs of Palestine to enter the peace process, but because it reintroduces the Jordanian monarch after his self-inflicted banishment from the limelight. It is, after all, in a closer relationship between Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza that the key to a final settlement in that region may well lie.
The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, referred to the Jewish lobby in the United States. That is a simplistic approach. The Jewish lobby and the power of the Jewish lobby belong to the same bibliography as the protocols of the Elders of Zion. Of course, it is vocal, well-organised and quite important, but it is in no way decisive. The real strength of Jewish support in the United States is in the grass roots, among the people of the United States in the Bible Belt, the Middle West and the Baptist South. That is where the strength of support lies, and why? It is not only for religious reasons or for beliefs that date back to the Bronze Age, but because Israel is the only functioning democracy between the toe of Italy and India and Japan. You have the rule of the law, not the reign of the rack and the terror of the thumbscrew. It is a democratic country. Israel is also liked by the United States because it is a dependable ally and a strategic asset whatever happens, even in a world that ceased to be bi-polar.
I wish to refer also to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, about Jerusalem. I take issue with him. Jerusalem must not only be an undivided city; it
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is the capital of Israel. I do not say that in any arrogant way. Jerusalem has a twin importance. It is a spiritual shrine and a secular, throbbing, living city. There is no question that Jewish guardianship and stewardship of the holy places has been exemplary. Even the most inveterate critics in the Vatican will tell you that relations on the ground between the Israeli Government and the clergy are exemplary. I have studied this question. I have a particular interest in it and can give chapter and verse to any noble Lord who would like to hear more about it. There is no question that in a settlement the holy places must be guarded, perhaps even internationally reinforced by some kind of Vatican statute under which the flags and banners of the great religions should fly over the great shrines of those religions.
However, the secular city of 500,000 people has a majority of Jewish inhabitants—370,000 out of 500,000 are Jews. In case there is any doubt, never since the days of King David has there been a Jerusalem emptied of Jews, apart perhaps from a short period under the Romans, but that was no more than one generation. Every century can bear witness to a Jewish majority or plurality under any rule. The reason therefore, by any criterion of head counting or democratic reasoning, is that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. However, that does not mean, as the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, pointed out, that in a future settlement Arab interests should not be safeguarded. The great mayor of Jerusalem, that liberal, humanist Mr. Kollek has suggested all kinds of possibilities in which the predominantly Arab boroughs must have a large degree of self-government, education, local police and self-expression in every way. Perhaps I may also say in parenthesis that today, when the press in Beirut is muzzled, the only free press in the Arab world, by standards and criteria of Western ideas of freedom, is in Jerusalem.
It is also simplistic to think that one could so easily deal with this matter. I believe that, in a future, peaceful Middle East, the Arab presence in Jerusalem could be safeguarded in many other ways. It could well be that part of the liaison headquarters of some confederative structure between Israel, Jordan and the West Bank could be in the Arab part of Jerusalem. In other words, why cannot Jerusalem be like Brussels? Brussels is the capital of Belgium and it is the headquarters of NATO and of the European Community.
The latest sticking point—the trade off between freezing of settlements and lifting of the Arab boycott —should be delicately and not robustly approached. Here again, we need our ladder. Can we not bypass principle and focus on practice? Could not the Arab states spontaneously suspend the boycott and Israel shift its priorities to settling Russian Jews in Galilee and in the grossly neglected and underdeveloped Negev? This is the time for subtle and not sledgehammer diplomacy. The British Government have an important part to play. They have the Arabs' confidence and, thanks to Mrs. Thatcher, they have recovered much of their esteem and influence in Jerusalem. The Foreign Secretary has greatly added to it by establishing good relations, indeed a kind of

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camaraderie, with the engaging and open minded Foreign Minister of Israel, Mr. David Levy. Mr. Hurd has transcended the old, simplistic notion that the essence of British policy in the conflict can be contained in the five word formula: "Pressuring America to pressure Israel". Instead, Mr. Hurd's policy is one of patient reasoning.
In conclusion, perhaps I may cite an ancient Jewish sage who said: "A hero is he who lives for his cause. A greater hero is he who is also ready to die for it. But the bravest hero of them all is he who, risking his life, succeeds in turning an enemy into a friend". My own ambitions are much more modest. I should like to feel that I could turn, by argument and reason, the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, and others who share his views and in their own way sincerely work for peace, from adversaries into benevolent neutrals.
1.6 p.m.
Lord Bottomley: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, and I share his views. The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, and I were members of the post-war Labour Government. We worked closely with Ernest Bevin in promoting one or two historical events. I regret that we were never able to agree about how to solve the Israel-Arab dispute. I have a long association with the Middle East. I was at the United Nations with Ernest Bevin in 1947 when statehood for Israel was first proposed. With the coming into being of the state of Israel in May 1949, Israel was admitted to membership of the United Nations. The leaders of Israel were desirous of co-operating with the wealthy Arab states in order to build up the prosperity of the Middle East. That was not accepted. The skill and enterprise of the Israelis enabled them to turn the desert into vast areas of arable land and to create forests of grapefruit, oranges and other fruit trees. They also developed an industrial economy.
The failure of the Arabs to recognise the state of Israel meant that, instead of co-operating, the Arabs spent their wealth on buying arms to destroy Israel. The Arab world has the largest arsenal—larger than that of the United States and the Soviet Union, and exceeding the combined military strength of Western Europe. The technical knowledge, enterprise and skill of the Israelis combined with the wealth from the Arabs would have enabled the Middle East to become one 3f the most prosperous areas of the world. The Israelis hoped that peace would come through a negotiated settlement between the parties directly affected, which would involve the recognition of Israel as a nation state.
All hopes were shattered when war broke out in October 1973 when, simultaneously, powerful Egyptian and Syrian forces attacked the Israelis across the Suez Canal and the Golan Heights. The Israelis were taken by surprise. The attack began on the Day of Atonement, the holiest day of the Jewish year. The Israelis fought back, destroying and capturing most of the Soviet SAM missile sites and re-establishing total air superiority. Eventually a ceasefire was agreed in response to United Nations Security Council resolutions.
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In 1970 I addressed the Israeli Youth Parliament in the Knesset. A few years ago I inquired about the well-being of some of them and was told that they had been killed in the fighting in the war of 1973.
Israel is roughly the size of Wales and its major port is within artillery range of the Lebanon. The capital city is almost within artillery range of Jordan. One option decidedly not open to Israel is to take a first blow and then call on the United Nations for assistance.
Resolution 242 was passed by the Security Council after the 1967 war. In essence, it calls for Israeli withdrawal from parts of the occupied territories and Arab recognition of Israel's right to exist within secure borders. United Nations Resolution 338 was passed after the 1973 war and is a reaffirmation of Resolution 242. It calls upon all parties immediately to start after the ceasefire implementing of Resolution 242.
What many observers fail to recognise is that Israel has already gone a long way to implement Resolutions 242 and 338. The Camp David Treaty between Israel and Egypt was an exchange of land for peace. Israel returned all of the Sinai that it had occupied in the 1967 and 1973 wars. That area represents 91 per cent. of the territory that the United Nations asked Israel to vacate. The stumbling block to peace negotiations in the past has been point blank Arab refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist, not Israel's refusal to withdraw from the occupied territories. Israel is willing to comply with Resolution 425, but not at the expense of leaving her northern flank open. If Syria were prepared to make her writ run throughout Southern Lebanon in the same manner as it runs on the Syrian-Golan border, then the conditions would be right for Israel to withdraw. Since the 1975 Israeli-Syrian armistice Syria has diligently prevented any terrorist attacks.
For the first time in many years the present peace efforts undertaken by the United States Secretary of State offer the possibility to break the vicious circle that has prevented progress being made in the Arab-Israeli conflict.
1.15 p.m.
Viscount Tonypandy: My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow my noble friend Lord Bottomley. A quarter of a century ago we served in the same Administration. Bonds of friendship draw me to listen carefully to him. But I share the views of the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, that it is a pity that this Motion has been brought before the House today.
The greatest opportunity since Israel was set up now exists to solve the question between Israel and the Arab states. In our debate today we must all try to avoid words that can be used in the war of propaganda in the Middle East. The noble Lord, Lord Beloff, did so, as did subsequent noble Lords. I wish that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, was still in the Chamber because I should have preferred to say in his presence what I have to say. I respect his sincerity and I have no doubt of it. Throughout the 46 years that I have known him he has taken a strong pro-Arab line.
Why do I feel involved? The noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, put his finger on the reason and why my

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blood tingles when the word "Israel" is mentioned. It is not the Israeli lobby. It is the Bible. We fool ourselves if we pretend that in America it is the money of the Jews that turns the wheels of Congress or the Senate. Members of those bodies are as human as the people who serve in the House of Commons and who look to their electorate. They know that that massive Bible belt in the United States of America is fiercely loyal to the establishment of a state of Israel.
Our own heritage owes much to the history of the Jewish people. I in no way wish to hurt people of other religions. However, the debt of this land is not to Moslems; it is to the Christian faith. That is where our origin lies. That is where our parliamentary democracy began, with the emphasis—especially of the New Testament, but linked with the Old Testament —on the importance of every individual. There is not an unimportant person in the land. One can trace that emphasis back to the Old Testament.
Therefore, I am emotionally concerned and believe that that is why America is so closely involved. Our heritage requires the maintenance of Israel. It will be a tremendous achievement if Secretary of State Baker is able to bring together Syria and Jordan for bilateral talks with Israel because other Arab states, in my judgment, will follow once those talks take place. There is bound to be hard bargaining. Mr. Shamir sits on a ridiculous majority. He has to face the facts of his parliament. The realists in the Arab world are well aware of that.
I shall not seek to answer point by point the original arguments that were put before the House because that would stir up controversy. However, I believe in my heart that when the Arab world is able to say, "Yes, of course, Israel has a right to exist"; when the genuine fears of the people who only a few months ago had Scud missiles aimed at them have been allayed; and when they can believe that the Golan Heights will not be used against them, it will be possible for an agreement to be reached. However, it will not be in this House—it will be over there. All that we can do is to pray for wisdom on the part of the negotiators. We must not become agents who will stir up bitterness on either side.
I am in the happy position of having dear Arab friends, as I suppose are most noble Lords. I am very conscious of the Arab lobby in this country. However, my Arab friends are aware of the strong views that I hold about the right of Israel to exist. I believe that today we should salute Mr. Shamir for his courage, but by no means do I share all his views. He happened to be Speaker in Israel when I was Speaker in Westminster and we got to know each other well. Mr. Shamir knows that I used to sit on the Labour Benches. Most people know that and they wonder why I no longer sit there. Tradition has brought me to the Cross-Benches, as your Lordships no doubt understand.
It would be terrible for Mr. Baker's job to be made harder and Mr. Shamir's position made worse as a result of our debate. Surely our job is to realise that it is in the interests of the world that the state of Israel
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should be recognised and her security guaranteed. She is most unlikely to want to attack the Arabs and thus to disturb the peace of the Middle East.
I wish to conclude by making a specific point. Israel has won each of the wars. She cannot afford to lose one because if she lost one she would be lost for a thousand years. That is the difference between the two sides involved. I hope and pray that Secretary of State Baker and our Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hurd, are successful in helping to bridge the gap between the two sides.
1.23 p.m.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, I am honoured to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, in this difficult debate. The noble Viscount began by excepting the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, from his praise for for the balanced approach taken by everyone. Towards the end of the noble Viscount's speech he deplored those among us who might be "acting as agents to stir up trouble". The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, was absent from the Chamber during the noble Viscount's speech. I am sure that he did not intend those words to apply to the noble Lord.
The noble Lord, Lord Beloff, was more generous in his attack on the noble Lord's espousal of the Arab position; he said that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, had every right to put the position, and and did so with skill—
Viscount Tonypandy: My Lords, I could not properly hear to what the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, was objecting. The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, has now returned to the Chamber. I wish to point out that I was trying to avoid making matters worse.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will be glad to have that clarification.
Under the headline "Israel embraces peace talks" the Independent this morning led with a story about a draft compromise which will bring peace at last. According to the newspaper the compromise is complex, subtle and crucial. It is about Palestinian representation at the peace conference. The only trouble is that it is between Israel and the United States: it is between the militarily most powerful country in the region, given its qualitative advantage, and its extra-regional backer, which is militarily the most powerful country in the world.
That news story was an extreme example of the blinkered tendency to believe that one particular country—the United States—can solve the problems of the world just by being big and powerful whether or not it is immediately concerned with them and, even more so, whether or not it is part of them. The United States cannot solve the Arab-Israel problem; to a large extent it is the Arab-Israel problem.
Let us consider the people conveniently called the Palestinians; the Arabs of what used conveniently to be called Palestine. They come in three parts, do they not? There are those who live in Israel proper; those who live in the lands conquered and illegally occupied by Israel, which include East Jerusalem; and the Diaspora. But they are one people, all of whom now say: "We are the Jews of the Israelis". They cannot

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develop the coherent and consistent political stances which are second nature to people living in settled nation states, such as us. That is because they cannot communicate freely, they cannot hold convincing elections among themselves and they are continually pushed from pillar to post by this or that upheaval imposed on them from outside.
The latest has been the Gulf war. The Kuwaiti ambassador in Washington recently said of the Palestinians resident in Kuwait:
"Thousands who have no work will be deported from the country, or will not have their residence permits renewed, because they do not represent a requirement for us".
Exactly. Not only are they not a requirement, they are a threat because they are politically educated and they incline to democracy. The Crust rulers of the Gulf states do not like employing non-Gulf Arabs because the latter insist on expressing only too legitimate Arab views. Pakistanis and Filipinos are safer because they have no legitimate views on Arab affairs. When these Palestinians are driven out of Kuwait where are they to go? Are they to go to Jordan? There is no work for them there. Are they to receive any of the money raised for refugees by the Coalition? Or is that impossible because they do not yet have a government to speak for them; or because the United States does not dare to talk to any Palestinians in any event? What will Kuwait be without them? Will the CIA take over, as it did in Laos at one time?
The conference for which we all hope must take into account the Diaspora Palestinians as well as the occupied Palestinians, to give them a short name. They are a single people, just as the Jews were before the foundation of the state of Israel and largely for the same; reason; they dream of a return to their homeland. Like the Jews before them, they have been united by persecution, and, like the Jews before them, a fringe has taken to terrorism. Persecution can be self-reproducing.
The United Nations must be present at the conference. It would be absurd if it were not. The purpose of the conference is to make progress towards the fulfilment of the UN resolutions. It would not be enough if this country and other European countries were represented only in a dilute fashion by the European Community. That arrangement is often desirable, but not here. Our Government and the others are bound singly and individually by the UN resolutions, and that must be reflected in the arrangement of the conference.
The denuclearisation of Iraq has to be the start of the denuclearisation of the Middle East. If it is not, it is no more than interventionism to restore Israel's military supremacy. We must have this out in the open. The British and US Governments take a line which it is difficult to defend in refusing to admit the existence of the Israeli nuclear weapons programme. When our Government are questioned in this House, they simply blush and refuse to answer. The US Administration continue to help Israeli weapons production and to send vast economic subsidies. This puts them in plain breach of their own domestic law which says that no economic aid should be given to a country with a nuclear weapons programme. They observe that law in the case of Pakistan but not in the
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case of Israel. Those questions, as our Government will be quick to point out, are for the US Administration. But do our Government have to go along with this ill-judged US policy? Do they ever wonder whether Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker might not even welcome more pressure from Europe?
The Government are in any case bound not only by the Venice Declaration but by the statements made by their representatives in the Security Council on 4th August 1949 and again in 1950, in which they:
"declared their opposition to the development of an arms race between the Arab States and Israel".
Yet they have solicitously nourished, even presided over, various arms races in the area. What is our interest in ensuring that Israel must always hold a decisive military edge over all its neighbours? This, together with the occupations, has been the most potent cause of the trouble in the Middle East. The US will always provide Israel with more weapons or more money. The Arrow programme is a famous case at the moment. The US applies no pressure: it only offers aid and advice. The aid is taken and the advice rejected.
We all know—and the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, mentioned it in opening the debate—of the diligent work of the Israeli lobby not only in Washington but nationwide in the US. However, if one looks at the details, there is nothing really so terrible about it. The noble Lord, Lord Beloff, spoke convincingly on this point. There is nothing that could not be countered by a robust government, or even by another lobby. It seems at the moment as if there is a powerful unknown hold. Do the Israeli Government know too much, for instance, about the Iran-Contra scandal, to he denied anything they want?
Sometimes we have heard that the resolution of Middle East problems should reflect the military balance there. But that balance, which is an imbalance, has been created over the years by the US. An Israel that believes it can win a war will not seek peace very arduously. It will prefer to go on like this for ever.
Have the Government discussed the desirability of the US re-opening its doors to Soviet Jews? This action alone would do more to help peace in the area than the present combination of dynamic immobilism in the Jerusalem regime and pussyfooting in Washington. Most of these emigrants do not want to go to Israel, but they provide Israel with the excuse for building in the occupied territories and thus perpetuating Arab fears.
The Palestinians are now going to reactivate their 100-strong Central Council and will perhaps institute a provisional government, with strands of opinion represented. This is a delicate moment to do that, and there is maximum danger of all the wires getting crossed. I say no more about that, except that if Mr. Arafat is elected president of a provisional Palestinian Government before the existence of a Palestine state, we should remember him not only for his all too well known actions in the terrorist phase in the past, his well-known statements about it and his well-known evasiveness on occasions, but we should also remember that he went to the European Parliament and said:

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"I extend my hand and hope an Israeli de Gaulle will grasp it".
Since the Gorbachev revolution there has been a handsome new development in the world; that is, people have remembered the grace of apology. Everybody is now apologising for what they did to other people—Chancellor Kohl to Israel and Czechoslovakia; President Havel to the Sudeten Germans; and Mrs. Thatcher to Czechoslovakia. Perhaps it will not be too long before somebody—and I do not know who should start it—will apologise to the expelled and oppressed Palestinians.
My purpose in speaking as I have done is to urge the Government to look honestly at the facts of the situation. (By that I do not mean that they have been looking at them dishonestly; that was an ill chosen word.) I urge them to look openly and squarely at the facts of the situation to see whether they do not believe it deserves an independent British policy.
1.37 p.m.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, and my noble friends Lord Weidenfeld and Lord Tonypandy, I believe that this debate—I put this as delicately as possible—is unfortunately timed. Indeed, it is an unfortunate coincidence that your Lordships' House should debate such a matter at the very time that the peace process is at its most delicate.
Before I address my remarks to your Lordships, as I am often asked to declare an interest, I declare a couple of non-interests. I am not a Zionist, although I have many close friends in Israel, and I am not an Arabist, although I have many close friends in the Arab world many of whom are Palestinians. Therefore, I have no axe to grind whatever in the dispute.
However, I claim to know a little about security and strategy and a little about the psychology of those responsible for making plans for their own national security. I suggest that although the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, was put in civilised and reasonable terms perhaps he has ignored the psychology of the Israeli approach and, indeed, may be commenting upon it in a way which is too neutral and analytical.
I should like to concentrate on the aspect of military security but first, in the interests of intellectual clarity, I make two points. The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, said in his speech that the Unstarred Question refers to United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338. It is worth pointing out for the sake of the record that those resolutions make no reference at all to the West Bank, Gaza, Golan or South Lebanon. One noble Lord has already pointed out that Resolution 338, made after the 1973 war, is in a sense only a call to observe Resolution 242 which came after the 1967 war.
Those resolutions call, first, for a,
"just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security".
Then come the words upon which the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, spent a certain amount of time:
"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict".
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It is wise that we remember those words exactly; they were framed and formulated exactly. I was a Minister in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office when Resolution 242 was formulated and adopted. It is not a matter of semantic quibbles. It is noticeable that the resolution does not call for the withdrawal of Israel from all territories occupied after the 1967 war.
The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, pointed out that in the English version the definite article "the" is omitted, whereas it is not omitted in other languages. The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, knows perfectly well that in other languages—for example, French—without the definite article the sentence becomes meaningless. It would not exist in the French language. This was a deliberate piece of drafting and the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, may recall that in December 1969, a short while after the resolution had been adopted, George Brown—later Lord George Brown—said in the House of Commons:
"The omission of the word 'all' before the word territories is deliberate".
That was further elaborated upon by the late Lord Caradon when he said:
"It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its position of June 4th 1967 because those positions were undesirable and artificial".
The noble lord, Lord Caradon, was instrumental in the drafting and formulation of Resolution 242.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord would allow me to intervene. I entirely agree with him. I believe that in my speech I said that the English version allowed for the rectification of frontiers, which is what Lord Caradon had in mind. I thought that was a very good idea.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, as I hope I have made clear. I am simply pointing out that the wording was deliberate at the time and it is not a matter of the wording in English. The wording of the resolution was framed in that way whatever other language it was translated into.
I wonder why Lord Caradon said that the pre-1967 position was undesirable and artificial. That leads me to the basic Question. It rests upon Israel's perception of its security position. It is difficult for anyone who has not spent some time in Israel and studied its defence problems to appreciate what the pre-1967 position really means to Israel.
When we looks at the position in the Middle East, instead of calmly and rationally analysing these problems—as, of course, we are entitled to do—but putting ourselves in the position of an Israeli, what does he see as he looks about now? First, what do the Israelis see among the armed forces of their potential enemies? I speak as I have often mentioned before, not about the intentions of their enemies—which are dubious and changeable—but about the military capabilities of their enemies which are much more clearly estimated.
It is difficult to assess the strength and the threat posed by Iraq after the recent events in the Gulf. However, we know that Iraq was, and still is, attempting to gain a nuclear weapons capability. We know that the Scud attacks on Israel at the time of the Gulf war left a deep scar on the psychological

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make-up of the people of Israel. We may know that at the moment the Government of Iraq and the people of Iraq are in a depressed and demoralised state after the event; in the Gulf; but we do not know what will happen to Iraq in the future. That was not one of the results of our actions in the Gulf.
The Israelis see Saudi Arabia with 72,000 men under arms and a great deal of modern equipment bought from around the world. They see Syria with nearly half a million men under arms with surface-to-surface missiles, including the Scuds that landed on Israel during the recent war and with modern submarines and modern Soviet missile craft capable of striking from the sea against the territory of Israel. A little further away they see Libya, again with over 70,000 men under arms. They see Jordan with 80,00 men under arms. In the Lebanon they see the PLO and the militia.
What in fact an Israeli sees, irrespective of what we may see from outside, is nearly 1 million men under arms in governments which have said from time to time that they are committed to the destruction and removal of Israel from the map of the Middle East. That must be taken into account when we consider the motives of Israel in taking the attitude that it takes towards the occupied territories. We may discount the threats to Israel and have good reason for doing so, but Israel security planners must plan on the worst case scenario. They must take account of the possibility that at some time in the future those countries may attack Israel, either severally or collectively, and that it must be in a position to defend itself.
The situation would be different if Israel were within borders, as it is now, that provide sufficient warning time of attack and it had space to place it beyond effective artillery, missile and surprise attack range. Bearing that in mind, if we look at the pre-1967 frontiers—again through the eyes of the Israelis—what do they see? Let us take those areas in the order in which the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, placed them in his Question. What do they see on the West Bank should they return to the pre-1967 frontiers? They see once again Jerusalem on the border and probably divided. They see Tel Aviv within artillery and missile range. They can stand on the 1967 frontier, which runs through the middle of their territory at the moment, and see Lod airport six miles away—an international airport with aircraft landing on it.
From the village or town of Tulkarm—again on the border as it was in 1967—to the Israeli coastal town of Netanya is a distance of eight miles. A straight concrete highway lies between the two. As an Israeli sees the position, armoured divisions attacking them from the pre-1967 frontiers could cut the country in two ii a matter of hours.
What do the Israelis see in Gaza? Perhaps they see no immediate danger. But they will recall that at one time it was a traditional base for terrorist operations against Israel. That will certainly be in the back, if not the front, of their minds. What do they see when they look at the Golan Heights? They see that to give those up without some kind of security guarantee would again bring towns in the north of Israel within artillery
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range. They will remember that before the battle for the Golan Heights in 1967 Syrian artillery deployed on the Heights destroyed hundreds of Israeli houses and hundreds of acres of Israeli farmland. Finally, what do the Israelis see in South Lebanon. They see what they and many other people refer to as "Fatahland"; it is the main area of Palestinian terrorist mobilisation and training.
I ask the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, and others, to believe that it is not paranoia, though it is fair to remember that Henry Kissinger once said that even paranoiacs have real enemies. It is true to say that most of us would perceive that Israel has real enemies. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, also to concede that Israel has, in response to Resolutions 242 and 338, already withdrawn from over 90 per cent. of the territory referred to in Resolution 242. I believe that it would be totally unreasonable for anyone who even remotely understands the requirements of national military security to expect Israel to give up the rest without some certainty that it can live, as Resolution 244 says, under a,
"just and lasting peace in which every state in the area can live in security".
Lord Kennet: My Lords, as regards Resolution 242, the noble Lord has just said that Israel had already retreated from 90 per cent. of the area referred to in that resolution. Does he take that resolution to have been referring to the areas held by Israel at their greatest extent during the course of the 1967 war, as opposed to the areas held by them immediately after it?
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I was referring to the areas from which, after the Egyptian initiative, Israel withdrew. They are part of the area mentioned generally in Resolution 242. That represents 90 per cent. of the area which they occupied as a result of the military operation.
It is all very well for those of us who live a different kind of life to talk about other people guaranteeing the security of Israel. That has been mentioned on more than one occasion in the debate. I wonder whether we really understand what it is like to live in a small country like Israel surrounded by people who are apparently and openly dedicated to your destruction. I wonder how we would react if we were in similar circumstances and people spoke to us about the United Nations guaranteeing our security. I believe that our answer would be a very dusty one indeed. It does not surprise me that the Israelis take a similar view.
I believe that there is now greater hope for the success of the peace process in the Middle East than there has ever been—certainly in my experience. In the course of the negotiations, which will certainly take place before a lasting peace can be achieved, it is possible and even probable that territory may be given up for security. As far as I am aware no Israelis have ever made any statement about what they are prepared to concede in the course of the negotiations. I and many of my Israeli friends expect them to give up territory in order to achieve a lasting peace. I believe that the bottom line (to use a piece of financial

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jargon in this calculation) is simply this: anyone who expects Israel to give up its territory and security in advance of the negotiations is being neither reasonable nor realistic.
1.53 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I am not among those who wish to withhold the customary congratulations and appreciation from the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew. I believe that those noble Lords who did so have been condemned, as it were, out of their own mouths because the debate has given them the opportunity of making quite impressive speeches in support of the views which they hold. Therefore, to withhold the customary congratulations from the noble Lord was misguided.
Of the speeches to which I have referred, the one that impressed me most was delivered by the noble Lord, Lord Beloff. He recognised the change which has taken place in world opinion in recent times. Despite everything and the Gulf war, one has seen a gradual removal of sympathy from Israel towards the Palestinians. There has been some talk of consistency. The noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, pointed to the consistency of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew. He said that he has held the same view ever since he worked with Mr. Bevin, when he was Foreign Secretary. I have no doubt that that is the same, though with some modification. However, consistency has also been seen on the other side. Consistency has been my curse also in political life.
However, on this particular issue I cannot claim that at all, I have been quite inconsistent. I had been tempted to give noble Lords some personal history on the point but for the fact that this morning there came to my notice the report of the Foreign Affairs Committee entitled The Middle East After the Gulf War. There has been some criticism of the wording of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew. I point out that it is a Question and not a resolution. In any event, it is my guess that if the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, had seen this document before he tabled his Question (he probably did not see it much before I did) he might have used a different wording. It is a remarkable document. It records the removal of sympathy, to which I have just referred, from Israel towards the Palestinians as being held by an All-Party Committee of the other place. That is something to which we should pay a little more attention.
One is tempted to take up judicial attitudes. The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, has given an example of that. To hold the views that one has always held is not something which is happening to the public at large. They are moving on this and I have moved with them. I shall not bore your Lordships with the reasons behind it. Before the war I was a member of a body called, I believe, Paole Zion. With the foundation of Israel I became a member of Labour Friends of Israel. That continued until I went to Israel in 1975 with a group which included Gerald Kaufman and myself.
One of the features of the tour was rather strange. Kaufman and myself were at the time junior Ministers in the Government. When the tour reached the point
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where it was more convenient when travelling from north to south of the country to pass through the occupied territories of the West Bank, the rest of the party went by coach from north to south through those territories. However, as far as we were concerned, because we were junior Ministers, we travelled by taxi through Israel because it was thought, so I understood, that for junior Ministers to have gone through the occupied territories would have been to give a degree of recognition to that occupation. Therefore, we went round by taxi and met our colleagues at the other end. I managed to have some conversation with Arab mayors in Israeli-occupied towns. In general they seemed to me to be brave and well-balanced men.
Fifteen years ago I saw much that I admired in Israel. I also realised that arithmetical democracy meant that power would rest in the hands of the extreme right, as the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, has pointed out. In practice, proportional representation would place power in the hands of the smallest proportion rather than in the hands of the large majority. That is what has occurred in that case. It meant that Jewish religious fanaticism was built up and given influence to match Islamic fundamentalism. No peace can be found that way.
Labour Friends of Israel, right or wrong? No. Friends of Labour Israel, yes. But we will not help those in Israel who oppose the extension of their country's boundaries beyond their legal limits if we permit our sympathy to blind us to the fact that collectively the persecuted have become the persecutors. It is that fact which has affected public opinion on the matter more than anything else.
Perhaps part of the answer might be found in the Security Council proposal that the Middle East shall emulate the South Pacific and become a nuclear-free zone. The Government have declared themselves in favour of such a zone if, as the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, said in his Written Answer to me this week,
"it is designed to enhance regional peace and security and if such a zone is acceptable to all states in the region".—[Official Report, 23/7/91; col. WA47.]
He went on to suggest that they should all accede to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and place their nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards.
Israel is now beginning to show—and I am happy to say this—a readiness to at least begin to talk about peace. The outlook, if the present approach towards negotiations does not succeed, will be grim. At present it is not hopeless. Nations do shed mistaken policies. Who would have thought, until quite recently, that apartheid in South Africa would have become so generally out of fashion that only a minority of whites still publicly espouse it? Standing alone may be seen as heroic in the short run, but it is not permanent practical politics for Israel in the world of the 1990s. We must all hope that the current moves towards peace may see at least the shape of a possible solution which will mean that the United Nations resolutions can be given friendly treatment. If they are not, we face the possibility that enforcement by sanction might inevitably come upon the agenda.

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I turn now to the document to which I referred. When I looked at the membership of the committee I thought it was going to be another pro-Israeli affair. I could not have been more mistaken. That was far from being the case and it is illustrative of the change of movement of opinion to which I have referred. I can do no more than take a couple of points from the conclusion. The committee says that:
"The British Government should make strong representations to the Israeli authorities about the ill-treatment of an increasing number of Palestinians".
It continues,
"We believe that, more than anything else, the settlement policy calls into question the good faith of the Israeli government over negotiations".
Paragraph 5.10 of the report quotes Secretary Baker telling a committee of Congress:
"Nothing has made my job of trying to find Arab and Palestinian partners for Israel more difficult than being greeted with a new settlement every time I arrive".
It goes on:
"We believe that, more than anything else, the settlement policy calls into question"—
as I have just quoted—
"the good faith of the Israeli government over negotiations".
That change of mind which has taken place over the years is one which has not affected me alone; it has affected a number of opinions on the subject. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves what we can do to ensure that the moves towards peace in the Middle East are successful.
We have been given another example of the fact that war between nations seldom has any worthwhile results and can even reinforce that which it seeks to remove. This time a peaceful solution must be found which will enable Israel to return in security to the path which so many of us hoped for when I was young and idealistic, many years ago. I believe that we are approaching that path. I believe that possibility exists, provided that the Prime Minister of Israel can overcome the very great internal difficulties he has and provided that the United States is prepared to use a certain amount of pressure in the matter. That would, in my view, be entirely legitimate. Above all, we have to realise the extent of the disaster if we fail to bring peace into the Middle East—a disaster which might spread much wider than that area. We have to persist and do everything we can to facilitate the successful outcome of the present discussions. There is no other way.
2.5 p.m.
Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe: My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, whom I first met some 35 years ago when he came to Bristol to speak at a meeting of an organisation called Victory for Socialism. I have no quarrel with that because I was a member myself and I chaired the meeting. However, I do not go too far down the road of admiring him as an expert in interpreting moods and shifts in public opinion, because soon after, in the development of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament he was one of the foremost advocates of the voter's veto, which was a bizarre idea that one threatened every candidate that if they did not
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renounce nuclear weapons then the vote would not be given to them. I believe that that was idealism getting the better of realism.
Together with other noble Lords I feel that the timing of this Question by the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, is infelicitous. I believe the statesmanlike thing to have done would have been to withdraw it from the Order Paper. Nevertheless, we are faced with it and as has been said—
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me, it is my experience that in the view of the Israeli lobby whenever I speak about Palestine it is the worst possible moment and that today, when their arguments are rejected by every government in the world except Israel, is the worst possible moment of all.
Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe: My Lords, there are circumstances when, one is told, it is the worst possible moment. I think of salary increases for Members of Parliament, increases in councillors' allowances and so on. However, the noble Lord has spoken on many occasions about this subject. Indeed, on 21st October 1981, soon after he came to your Lordships' House, he took part in a Question on the funding of the PLO. He has a long track record and I am sure that the worst moment argument cannot have been put to him on every occasion.
Yassir Arafat commented recently on the starvation among some of the Palestinians in Israel. One should consider that point. One of the consequences of his espousal of Saddam Hussein during the Gulf conflict was that very substantial funds to him were cut off by some Arab governments, including Kuwait itself. The extent of those funds was quite surprising. Over the years far more funds could have been made available to alleviate conditions in the Palestinian camps, but I believe that a cynical view was taken that those conditions should be retained almost as visual aids to support the Palestinian cause. That sort of behaviour is not unknown. It happened in Bristol when consultants wanting to get the eye hospital rebuilt actually conspired among themselves to keep the waiting room and the public access rooms in a disgusting condition in order to improve their cause.
As a former Foreign Office Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, must have a broad view of the problems in the world. I sometimes wonder about his extreme concentration on this particular one. I am sure that he would denounce the pernicious efforts being made in some quarters at the moment to say that the holocaust never actually took place. I know that he himself was very early into the concentration camp at Belsen at the end of the war. I should like to hear some of the advocates of the Arab cause being more vociferous in their condemnation of the assassination of moderate Palestinians who show any signs of co-operating with the Israeli authorities. Those moderate Palestinians are very soon put to death.
The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, was a member of the Labour Party for a long time. In his autobiography, Time to Explain, he describes how, with regard to his breach with the party, the final straw was Tony Benn's chairmanship of an official

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party committee on the media. The person concerned is now the Member of Parliament for Chesterfield. The noble Lord goes on to describe the unrepresentative nature of that committee. In this connection I must say that I am wholeheartedly in agreement with him because one of the things I managed to disinter during my time as Chief Whip of the Labour Party was the unrepresentative nature of the committees producing Labour's policy. The noble Lord will know that I have had my own difficulties with the Left Wing of the Labour Party.
The noble Lord made great play about the Israeli lobby not only here but also in the United States. That was put into greater perspective by the noble Lord, Lord Kennet. I wonder whether the noble Lord has ever thought about the people with whom he has associated in embracing the Palestinian cause so vehemently. Quite apart from the Campaign Group of Labour MPs in another place, Militant is a most vociferous exponent of the Palestinian cause. Militant is very topical in the Labour Party at the moment—or possibly out of the Labour Party shortly. Another great advocate is the Socialist Workers Party and the Workers Revolutionary Party. I frequently used to examine the publications of the latter two. So widespread was the coverage of Palestinian issues, including double page features, that I used to wonder whether funds were being provided for those revolutionary bodies from Palestinian sources in order to get that support. I was never able to unravel the matter, although my suspicions were not allayed. I ask the noble Lord to think about those bedfellows. Some of their support has been for reasons other than a genuine interest in the people concerned. I have spoken in the House before about the Israeli destruction of the Iraqi nuclear reactor. I feel that that was for the benefit of everyone concerned in trying to prosecute the recent Gulf war.
The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, has a long record of pressing for electoral reform. I ask him to consider the fact that Israel is the only democratic state in the entire region. The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, in talking about Kuwait and the Palestinians, said that some Palestinians were regarded as dangerous because they inclined towards democracy there. In line with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, in saying that the Likud Government rely on a small minority of almost fanatical people, is giving a hostage to fortune for those who are trying to propagate proportional representation. One of the main arguments that some of us have always put forward against proportional representation is that it destroys the possibility of really stable government. I hope that the noble Lord does not get into trouble on the electoral front with his friends and colleagues in due course.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, will my noble friend allow me to intervene?
Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe: Yes, my Lords, of course.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, I feel that I must respond to that because the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, is
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apparently not going to do so. The House will be aware that the Israeli system of proportional representation is unique in the world in that there is only one constituency: and that is the state of Israel. It is pure party list. I hope that the House is also aware that no one has ever suggested the adoption of that system in this country.
Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe: My Lords, I do not want this exchange to develop into a commercial for and against particular electoral systems. The subject is far too serious for that. However, I understand the point made by my noble friend Lord Kennet.
Israel is a country with immense problems. At present, about one third of a million Russian Jews are being assimilated, not to mention the Ethiopian Jews who have been brought into the country. I think that they deserve more sympathy from some of their critics than they are receiving. There is an easing in the situation at the moment which is why I think this debate is unfortunate, especially in regard to Syria. The whole problem encompasses a number of much smaller but very difficult problems which come to light from time to time. Only yesterday I was given information by Mrs. Miriam Baumel regarding her son and other Israeli soldiers who are still held hostage. However, I need not weary the House with this because details have been sent to the Prime Minister and to the Foreign Secretary. But I can supply the Minister with further information if necessary.
In conclusion, there is a better opportunity for making progress on the peace front than has been the case for a long time. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, to recognise that fact, to adopt a more conciliatory approach to the problem and to consider very carefully the points which have been made today, especially those made by some of my colleagues who have put their arguments much more clearly and succinctly than I have.
2.16 pm.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, unlike many other noble Lords, I welcome the debate today. It seems to me to be taking place at a reasonably appropriate time. By coincidence, it happens to be taking place immediately after the publication of the Select Committee report from another place on the Middle East. Moreover, it is at a time when matters in the Middle East are showing signs of movement such as have not been seen for a considerable length of time. Therefore, I think that it is appropriate to put this on the agenda so that before the Summer Recess the Government have the opportunity to say what their position is in the present circumstances. That does not seem to me to be unreasonable.
At the beginning of the year I had the good fortune to travel to Israel. I visited the Knesset and the West Bank and Gaza with my right honourable friend Sir David Steel. We returned two days before the breakout of war with Iraq. We came back with a sense of deep frustration—a frustration which was transmitted to us largely by the people we met in the refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza. While in

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Israel, we spoke to many Palestinians as well as to members of the Knesset on all sides of the political spectrum. We spent some considerable time telling the Palestinians how foolish and crassly stupid we believed Yassir Arafat had been to put his arms around the neck of Saddam Hussein. That view has clearly turned out to be right. By doing that he undermined the cause of the Palestinians more than any other person in recent times and more than by any other single act.
However, we also met other Palestinians leaders in Israel. The noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, who has now quitted the occupied territories behind our Benches, mentioned that there were people (like Faisal al Husseini, whom we met) who might be the sort of people with whom a deal could be negotiated. Unfortunately Mr. Shamir has made it quite clear that Faisal al Husseini is not acceptable because he lives in East Jerusalem. I hope that he will move from that position and that that will be one of the beginnings of the movement which we have seen take place during the past few days.
One of the matters which, unfortunately, has not really been dealt with too much in this debate is the plight of the people living in the refugee camps. However, it was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Cock of Hartcliffe. He seemed to me to be rather denying that the problems there are as great as I believe them to be.
I turn to a point made by the noble Lord who said that no one ever speaks out about the Palestinian moderates who have been killed by the extremists. I rise to that challenge now. It is greatly to be condemned. The Select Committee report makes it plain that some 400 Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians. That is grotesque. The report also mentions that 900 Palestinians have been killed by Israelis during the same period. That is equally grotesque.
We are talking about people who, because of the stupidity of their leadership at the time of the Iraq war, have been made to suffer even worse economic hardship. But it is an economic hardship imposed on the people in the occupied territories by what, so far as they are concerned, is a military dictatorship.
I do not deny that the state of Israel is the only democracy in that part of the world. It is greatly to be applauded for that. It is greatly to be welcomed, and it must be sustained along with the belief that Israel should have secure borders. Its democracy is something of which it can be proud, but it does not extend into the territories that it has occupied. There, the law is based upon at least four separate sources of law, including British military law from when we were in occupation. The economic plight of those people is magnified by those laws.
I have a report from the Co-ordinating Committee of International NEOs which was published at a press conference in June this year in which it is said:
"Like all Palestinians, business people have been forced to operate and live under a repressive military occupation for more than 24 years. They are subjected to a dizzying maze of administrative orders and practices that combine to produce
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a hostile, uncertain and unstable environment. The cumulative result is economic stagnation, unemployment and destitution".
In a press statement issued a few days before that meeting it was reported that,
"approximately 35 per cent. of the Palestinian workforce is unemployed and that in a number of West Bank refugee camps, the figure is as high as 70%. Furthermore, it is estimated that 80% of all Palestinians in the occupied territories are currently living below the poverty line".
There is much more of that which I do not propose to parade before your Lordships. In talking about peace for territory, we are not talking just about land; we are talking about people who are living in those territories.
Not much has been said today about the Israeli settlement policy, but that it is because of considerable aggravation in that part of the world. It is in flagrant violation of United Nations resolutions and of the wishes of the United States and the European Community. One recognises that there are intense pressures upon Israel because of the immigration of people from the Soviet Union. One is glad that those people can escape from the tyranny under which they lived for so long. One only hopes that their coming to freedom does not increase the tyranny being imposed upon the Palestinians who already live there.
The debate has been very much like the curate's egg, but not without some hope. Even those people who most vehemently opposed the position of my noble friend Lord Mayhew have held out some hope for the future. The noble Lord, Lord Beloff, who started in a less than friendly way moved into a position of being positive. That was an important contribution to the debate, and in itself almost made it worthwhile. I thought what the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, said about Jerusalem was extremely helpful. It is the kind of constructive proposal that one wishes to hear from all sides if we are to solve this difficult situation.
I felt at first that the assessment by the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, that Resolution 242 needed updating, was a means of sliding away from the imperative of the resolution, but again it seemed to me that he softened his tone in the course of his speech. However, he went back to the old situation of wanting bilateral talks. The problem with that is that the Palestinians are left out on every occasion. That is why there is a need for the process, which we hope is beginning, of having true regional discussions with the Palestinians represented in some way or other. I can well understand that the Israeli Government do not wish to sit down at the table with some of the more violent terrorists who exist in the Palestinian community. However, they must not turn their backs on others like Faisal al Husseini, Sari Nuseibieh and people like them who are capable of carrying on a rational and positive discussion with them.
I turn to what the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, said. His was a useful contribution, looking at the situation through Israeli eyes. As he said, it is difficult to do so from here. He gave a true picture of the way in which the Israelis find themselves looking at the position around them. It must have been made worse by the firing of Scud missiles into Israel during the war. Again, one must commend the Israelis for their calm

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stance during that period and not for reacting with counterviolence. That is very much on the credit side for the Israeli Government.
However, I couple with that what the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, quite rightly said: Israel cannot afford to lose one war. The danger is that if the present situation continues, sooner or later Israel will lose that one war. The only way in which it can prevent that terrible eventuality is to come to the peace table and discuss all the issues which go to make this bizarre jigsaw puzzle.
Thus, although I recognise the point made so well by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, somehow one must find a way of showing the Israeli people that they are not secure in the present situation. Those pieces of land which they have occupied do not make a great strategic difference to their security; they may make some minor tactical improvement to to but with Scud missiles coming from as far away as Iraq, they must surely begin to realise that the kind of wars fought in the 1960s and 1970s are not the kind of wars that will be fought next time.
Now is an opportunity, a chance, for the Israelis to get peace into their hands. The whole balance of power in the Middle East has changed because of what has happened in the Soviet Union. No longer do we have two superpowers using the Middle East as a secondary battleground. Syria has clearly seen the writing on the wall. I understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, made. One cannot blame the Israeli Government for being cynical about President Assad as he is clearly a wily gentleman. Israel would need some very firm assurances before trusting President Assad very far. However, we must bear in mind that President Assad must feel that, with the Soviet Union in decline, his political position is very much more exposed than it was only a couple of years ago.
When we came away from Jordan on 13th January we were frustrated and depressed. However, at that stage we said there may be a glimmer of hope that out of the war there may come the opportunity for a new initiative, provided that the Americans were prepared to seize it. We have read over the past few days—and in this morning's newspapers—of the activities of Secretary of State Baker and there appears to be the beginnings of a reaction from Mr. Shamir. This Question is really asking the British Government what they will do to sustain, encourage and develop that process.
2.31 p.m.
Lord Richard: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, was quite right to say that it is a convention of the House to start one's speech by commenting that the debate is timely. One then thanks the noble Lord who has introduced it. If one were engaged in negotiations at this precise moment, one would be tempted to say that this is not a particularly timely debate. I bow to your Lordships' superior wisdom, but I do not think that an excursion into the labyrinths of the Middle East in the House of Lords late on a Thursday afternoon on the final day of the Session will
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have any direct effect upon the way in which the participants in the negotiations will conduct themselves. But it may be of somewhat greater importance for the Minister who is to reply to the debate to state something that is earth shattering or cataclysmic as regards British foreign policy. Such a statement might indeed have an effect on the negotiations. But if the Minister will forgive me for saying so, I do not expect to hear anything that is earth shattering or cataclysmic in his reply this afternoon.
However, to wander round the course as we have done does no harm whatever. The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, was unnecessarily bleak in his appreciation of the situation. I understand that he has been considering these matters in great detail and with great interest over a long period of time. However it is a little pessimistic merely to say that if the Israelis settle this issue, all they will do is to raise another difficulty, and then further difficulties after that. In any event, even if that were to occur, that is precisely the situation that we shall have to deal with. The negotiations over Namibia with the South African Government and the United Nations come to mind in this connection. We thought the matter was settled, then something else arose; we thought that matter had been settled, and then something else arose. I have no doubt that the process of negotiation in arriving at a solution of the relations between Israel and its Arab neighbours will be infinitely more lengthy, difficult and painstaking than any negotiations that took place with the South Africans over Namibia. We should not be depressed at the prospect of a large number of hurdles that we shall have to leap.
The noble Lord, Lord Beloff, made an impressive contribution to our debate. He said that there must be a query about whether President Assad has really had a change of mind. It does not matter to me whether he has had a change of mind or not. What I want out of President Assad is not a conversion, either on the road to Damascus or in Damascus, but rather a direct appreciation of where Syria's future interests lie. One can produce a perfectly respectable argument for claiming that all the parties that are now inching their way towards negotiations are doing so for thoroughly bad reasons. The Syrians could be negotiating because they have lost the protection of the Soviet Union by seeking to give more support to the Americans.
I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, gave the United States sufficient credit for the pressure that it is putting on Israel at the moment. The Israelis could be negotiating because they fear the loss of their 10 billion dollar credit from the Americans. The Jordanians could be negotiating because presumably the King wants to get back into the international arena after the mistakes he made over the Gulf. Lebanon could be negotiating because it has been told to do so by the Syrians. None of them has particularly creditable motives, but that is not the point. The important point is not the motivation but where the interests lie. If the national interests of those four countries, or sets of countries, combine in such a way as to produce a negotiating framework, that is something we should welcome heartily.

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The noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, who made an important contribution to the debate, said that this was a time for sensitive rather than sledgehammer diplomacy. I totally agree with that. However, he went on to call for the bringing up to date of Resolution 242. I can imagine nothing which would be more destructive of the negotiating process than that we should re-open that can of worms. Ernest Bevin has been quoted frequently in this debate. When the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, made that point I was reminded that Ernie Bevin, when asked whether he would consider a particular line, is supposed to have said, "No, I am not going to open that Pandora's Box. You never know how many Trojan horses will come out". The masterly imprecision of Resolution 242 is something that we should preserve and not try to erode.
I am afraid that I did not have the advantage of listening to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, but I have had a full report of what he said. I can only say, from the report that I have had, that apart from some of his remarks about the efficacy of the United Nations in a difficult international situation I find myself in considerable agreement with him—was that a bad report.?
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I do not believe that at any stage in my speech did I cast doubts or aspersions on the ethics of the United Nations, either directly or by implication. I fear that there has been bad reporting.
Lord Richard: My Lords, one should never rely entirely on instructions which come from behind one.
In a sense this has been a strange debate and we find ourselves in a strange situation. We are very much spectators of what is happening in the Middle East. We are not actors and we are not direct participants. Event; appear to be moving very quickly. Therefore, we lock to the Minister to give us an up-to-date appreciation of how the Government see the current situation. I see that as the Minister's main function in this debate.
Given the moves which are currently under way I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, that I doubt the desirability or efficacy of immediate attempts by the United Nations Security Council to take enforcement action. Anything that the UN can do to assist the process now under way is thoroughly desirable, but to try to move the centre of activity to New York at this precise moment would not necessarily be very productive.
The United Nations is bound to be involved in the process. In the end some form of peace-keeping force or international guarantee commitment through the UN will prove to be inevitable, but it should be part of the peace process and not outside it.
A number of questions come to mind which will be very difficult to answer. The first question which the House is entitled to ask is for the Government's assessment of the real intention of the Israeli Government. The quite extraordinarily and unexpectedly helpful position recently expressed by President Assad of Syria has provided an opportunity for fundamental progress, but it demands and perhaps is
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beginning to receive a reciprocal attitude from the Israeli Government. How do the Government now see the progress of the negotiations? In particular, what do they see as the framework of those negotiations? A series of bilateral discussions will not prove sufficient, although they may provide a series of essential first steps.
I find the prospect of Israel and Syria sitting down and talking to each other an extraordinary and dramatic prospect. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, that once you start the process it tends to gather an impetus and momentum of its own. Certainly, I am sure of one thing: once that process has started, things are unlikely to remain frozen in concrete in the future as they have done in the past.
I make two provisos when I talk about that negotiation process. First, the bilaterals cannot be regarded as a substitute for full negotiations. At some stage, all the participants will have to be involved. That brings me to my second qualification and proviso. It is illusory for anyone to think that one will be able to settle matters over the heads of the Palestinians. Therefore, central to the issue of whether negotiations can be got under way is the question of who is to speak for the Palestinians. Who are their representatives to be? As of today, that seems to be less of a potential obstacle to the start of negotiations than it seemed to be a few days ago. I should be grateful if the Government would give us an indication of how they see those difficulties being resolved.
Perhaps I may now turn to the occupation itself. I use that word quite deliberately. It has caused deep anxiety in many countries, even among those—perhaps particularly among those—who are strong supporters of Israel and of the right of Israel to exist as an independent and secure nation. It is idle to pretend that it is not an occupation. Of course it is an occupation. The territories are occupied. Moreover, it is an illegal occupation. The Government have accepted that on a number of occasions in the past. It has also proved to be a violent and in some instances even a brutal occupation, a fact about which I am extremely regretful.
I have before me the Amnesty International report on Israel and the Occupied Territories from 1991. I do not want to weary the House, but I should like to read out a few sentences to illustrate the problem. The report states:
"Some 25,000 Palestinians, including prisoners of conscience, were' arrested in connection with the intifada (uprising) in the Occupied Territories. Over 4,000 were administratively detained without charge or trial, and thousands of others were tried by military courts. By the end of the year about 13,000 were still detained or imprisoned. Dozens of Israelis, including Druze and Jewish objectors to military service, were imprisoned as prisoners of conscience. Thousands of Palestinians were punitively beaten or otherwise tortured or ill-treated. About 120 Palestinians … were shot dead by Israeli forces, often in circumstances suggesting unjustifiable killings. Israeli soldiers misused tear-gas, endangering lives. Investigations into abuses and related prosecutions appeared to be inadequate. One person remained under sentence of death".
I accept that that is a report by an organisation which has in the past stirred up a certain amount of controversy in some of its public utterances, but prima

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facie that is a situation about which those of us who are supporters of the right of Israel to exist within secure borders do not wish to read in connection with that country.
In addition, the occupation has ceased to appear temporary. I suppose that one might just argue that in 1967 the Israelis argued strongly that it was necessary to occupy the Occupied Territories so as to produce a feeling of security and, indeed actual security for the rest of Israel, but the extent of Jewish settlement on the West Bank now is, frankly, profoundly disturbing. It will without doubt prove one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult, problems to overcome if negotiations get under way. I was therefore grateful for the statement that was issued at the end of the Group of Seven meeting and for the passage of Resolution 681 in the Security Council towards the end of last year.
I should like to put two or three other matters on record and I hope that the Minister will be able to comment on them. One of the interesting things that appears to be happening at present in relation to the negotiating process is the involvement of Egypt at some stage almost as a bridge or an emulsifier in the process of negotiations. I read in the paper today that the former Egyptian Foreign Minister, Esmat Abdel Meguid, went to Syria and to the Lebanon, I believe within the past few days. I am interested to know, in particular in relation to the visit of Mr. Mubarak to London, how the Government see the Egyptian role. It is well worth noting that if Egypt, which has had a settlement with the Israelis in the Camp David Agreement, is now seen by the remainder of the Arab world as an interlocutor with the Israelis, that may provide some evidence, although not conclusive, that there is a genuine spirit of negotiation in the area at present.
The Unstarred Question asks Her Majesty's Government:
"What steps they are taking to secure the implementation of the resolutions of the UN Security Council".
I hope that the steps that the Government are taking are to give full support to the attempts that are now being made to bring about negotiations. I trust we are being as diplomatically active as we can be in supporting the United States in its efforts. I trust that we are also making our position crystal clear to the Israelis as to what we think of their continued occupation of the Occupied Territories and indeed of the type of occupation.
We may be in one of those rare situations—I am always somewhat wary of using such a phrase—when after a number of years, or even decades, of potential hostility between countries there may be a chance to get negotiations under way. I hope that the Government share that view. If they do, I hope that they will make every effort to ensure that the opportunity is not lost.
2.46 p.m.
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, I should like to join with those noble Lords who thanked the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, for giving us an opportunity to
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discuss this Question. I am also grateful to the many noble Lords who made such thoughtful and constructive contributions to the debate. My noble friend Lord Beloff, the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy (he passed me a note to say that he could not stay to the end of the debate), the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, and others regretted that perhaps the debate was not entirely timely. It is not for me to say what we should and should not debate. However, it must be true—especially when noble Lords hold strong and differing views—that at this very delicate stage of negotiations we should be circumspect. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, is right: there will be no shattering departure from foreign policy statements at the Dispatch Box today.
As the long Recess draws upon us, it is probably as well to remember that there are intractable problems in the world and that it is appropriate to turn our minds to address them. At least today as we approach this Question, I believe that we do so more hopefully than we have sometimes done in previous debates.
We all wish to see a just and lasting settlement in the Middle East, bringing peace between Israel and her Arab neighbours, justice for the Palestinians and a unified Lebanon free of foreign troops in accordance with the Taif agreement.
We said that when the Gulf crisis was over there would be a pressing need to find a settlement of the Arab-Israel dispute. Now that Iraqi aggression against Kuwait has been reversed, there is a real opportunity for progress. We have given our full support to the efforts of the United States Secretary of State to reach agreement on a regional conference.
The Americans are best placed to lead. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, I wonder whether now is perhaps not the time to consider developing an independent British policy for the area. But we and our European partners have an important role to play. We welcome Israeli agreement that the European Commission presidency should participate at any conference alongside the United States and the USSR. My noble friend Lord Beloff drew attention to that wider area. We have a vital interest in the shape of any settlement and much to contribute.
We have always said that a settlement should be based on United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. These are the bases of the present initiative. However, we should not forget that these resolutions ask for concessions from both sides, as many noble Lords have pointed out. They ask for Israeli withdrawal from territory in exchange for Arab acceptance of Israel's right to exist within secure and internationally-recognised borders.
I acknowledge the truth of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew; that the concept of a solution based on land for peace is finding wider acceptance. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, and other noble Lords who drew attention to the shift in world public opinion as regards the plight of the Palestinians.
Mr. Baker has been tireless in his efforts to bring the parties to the negotiating table and we must congratulate him on that. At the end of hostilities in the Gulf he made four visits to the region. He

931
established important areas of common ground between the parties but failed to resolve a number of procedural differences between the Israeli and Syrian posit ions. President Bush therefore wrote to the Israeli Prime Minister and to the Syrian President setting out compromise proposals which would bridge the gap. It was Syria's unconditional acceptance of these proposals in a letter from President Assad on 14th July which prompted Mr. Baker to return to the region. Syria has moved further than ever before for whatever reasons. Other Arab states have now joined in making concessions.
After his talks with Mr. Baker on 19th July President Mubarak of Egypt said that if Israel stopped building settlements in the Occupied Territories he thought that the Arabs would end the boycott of Israel. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, I cannot comment further on the possible Egyptian role although something may emerge. President Mubarak's statement was later endorsed by Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. That was the trade-off proposed by the G7 last week. The Arab response is clear evidence that Israel's neighbours are determined to make progress. The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, refer red to reports in this morning's newspapers suggesting that Israel had accepted the US proposals. The reports may be encouraging but they are premature and have yet to be verified.
The Jordanians and the Lebanese have also expressed their willingness to attend a conference. We hope that the Jordanians and Palestinians will consider forming a joint delegation because that appears to be the best way to solve the problem of Palestinian representation: finding Palestinians who are genuine representatives and to whom the Israelis will talk. The noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, referred to that problem. I hope that my reply answers at least in part the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Richard.
We have urged all parties to show flexibility. The Foreign Secretary explored the prospects for peace with the Israeli Foreign Minister last week. We are in close touch with the Arabs too. Everyone has much to gain from negotiations because a negotiated settlement is central to the peace and stability of the region.
We have also urged all parties to consider confidence-building measures which will help to create a good climate for negotiation by demonstrating good faith. We therefore welcome the announcement about the boycott and urge Israel to make the corresponding concession and stop building settlements. But these move s should not be allowed to become preconditions for negotiation; the convening of the conference must remain the priority.
Nevertheless, we and our European partners are firmly opposed to Israel's settlement activity. As the European Council made clear in its declaration in Luxembourg on 29th June, we believe that a policy of establishing settlements in the Occupied Territories is not only illegal, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, but incompatible with Israel's expressed desire to make progress in the peace process. We have been encouraged by the constructive Arab response. We row look to the Israeli Government to show a
932
similar willingness to make compromises for peace. We expect Israel's response very soon. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, asked me what point the negotiations had reached. I do not believe that I can say more than that. That is the opportunity which the Israelis have sought for more than 40 years; they should grasp it.
We hope that the remaining difficulties can be overcome. We urge the parties not to flinch from talks. The conference will not be a mechanism for imposing a solution on either side. A solution cannot be imposed; it should be freely accepted. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, takes issue with that. He asks whether we will accord to Israel a veto on the implementation of United Nations resolutions. The resolutions demanding an Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait are mandatory. Resolutions 242 and 338 are not; they relate to a situation entirely different from that which existed in the Gulf. Her Majesty's Government continue to believe that Israel should be encouraged and not bullied into acceptance. The same applies to the Arabs. Resolutions 242 and 338 make demands—notably the end of the state of belligerency which still exists.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, normally when one talks of a mandatory UN resolution one means a Security Council resolution, as opposed to a General Assembly resolution, which is not binding, not mandatory. While it is true that Resolutions 242 and 338 did not threaten the use of force by a given date, that is the only thing that they did not threaten. In other words, they were mandatory, and were a direct expression of the will of the United Nations.
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, there is no possible suggestion that the resolution can be ignored. I merely point out that it is different. We are approaching the peace process based on those resolutions. It is self-evident that if we put matters into a parcel of "You will" to the Israelis and they simply say, as they have said in the past, that they will not accept that, no progress will be made.
However, I do not suggest—and I believe that this may have been the interpretation of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew —that we are giving the Israelis a let-out under those resolutions. Only when an acceptable solution is found will there be just and lasting peace, reconciling the legitimate rights of all parties: Israel's security, the concerns of her Arab neighbours and the Palestinians' right to self-determination.
We noted the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, that the £10 billion loan guarantees should be conditional on compliance with the United Nations Security Council resolutions. However, our position is that it must be for the Americans, who are leading the negotiations, to make that decisions.
The Security Council resolutions which call for Israeli withdrawal from Arab lands are not of course the only resolutions which relate to the occupation. Sadly, the Security Council has found it necessary to adopt resolutions on the behaviour of the occupying power. That has been mentioned by several noble Lords. The Israelis' continued failure to administer

933
the Occupied Territories according to international law and human rights standards is well known to us all. We have never hesitated to make clear our rejection of Israel's policies of repression in the occupied Territories and our worries about deteriorating conditions there.
We take the view that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the Occupied Territories, and we regularly remind the Israelis of their obligation to abide by it. Last October, the killing of 17 Palestinians in Jerusalem led to three Security Council resolutions condemning Israeli action and calling for the protection of the Palestinians. We are considering how to take forward some of the suggestions in Resolution 681.
We are also working to improve economic conditions in the Occupied Territories. The European Community agreed in March to provide a grant of £42 million in emergency aid to the Occupied Territories to compensate for the impact of the Gulf crisis. Britain also has a bilateral aid programme and remains a major contributor to UNRWA, the United Nations agency charged with the care of Palestinian refugees.
But the deteriorating situation in the Occupied Territories shows the urgent need to find a solution to the underlying political dispute. By far the best thing we can do for the Palestinians is to help to bring an end to the occupation. That is why the peace initiative comes first, and that is the Palestinians' top priority, not just our own.
The noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, touched on that point. The American initiative is not one-sided. The objective is to persuade the Israelis to negotiate on the basis of Security Resolutions 242 and 338, as I have said. That is in Israel's best interest. The status quo is not tenable. We support the twin-track approach, but peace between Israel and the Arab states is an aim we share. However, movement on the Palestinian problem must be in parallel, for we believe that Israeli security can be achieved only through peace with Israel's Arab neighbours and through solving the Palestinian problems together. Riot control is no substitute for policy.
The problem of the Lebanon is separate, but there are encouraging developments in that area too. The Lebanon has made great progress in ending the civil war. The Taif agreement is the essential component in that process. It remains our view that all foreign troops should withdraw from the Lebanon as was agreed at Taif.
We welcome the further indications that the Lebanese army is regaining control in southern Lebanon. Success in this process will further strengthen international calls, which we have consistently supported, for Israel to withdraw from the Lebanon in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 425.
The Israelis have long maintained that their defence forces should operate in the Lebanon only as long as is necessary for the protection of northern Israel. The restoration of Lebanese army control and of stability in this area is in the interests of Israel. That should lead to the early withdrawal of Israeli defence forces.
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In conclusion, perhaps I may say that peace in the Middle East is an ambitious aim. It is not something that we or even the West could hope to achieve on our own. But we have played our part and will continue to play our part. It is a long time since we have seen such progress as has been apparent in recent weeks. We hope that everyone in the region will grasp the opportunity for peace. Your Lordships have given broad support for the proposed steps towards peace in the Middle East. For that I express the gratitude of Her Majesty's Government.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, could the Minister help me on one point? I understand that the United Nations examined the possibility that the damage caused in Kuwait and the lives taken by Saddam Hussein should be compensated for. Will Israel have to pay compensation for the slaying carried out in the territories which the Israelis occupy and the damage that they have caused?
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, that is outside the scope of the Question. I shall study the question the noble Lord asks and will write to him. However, I do not believe that it will advance this morning's debate.

Royal Assent
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Murton of Lindisfarne): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and Measures:

Finance Act,

Appropriation Act,

Agriculture and Forestry (Financial Provisions) Act,

Planning and Compensation Act,

Badgers (Further Protection) Act,

Badgers Act,

Smoke Detectors Act,

Medical Qualifications (Amendment) Act,

Wildlife and Countryside (Amendment) Act,

Road Traffic Act,

Arms Control and Disarmament (Inspections) Act,

Social Security (Contributions) Act,

Forestry Act,

Foreign Corporations Act,

Coal Mining Subsidence Act,

Atomic Weapons Establishment Act,

Mental Health (Detention) (Scotland) Act,

Child Support Act,

School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act,

Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act,

Local Government Finance and Valuation Act,

Ports Act,

Criminal Justice Act,

Deer Act,

Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act,

Water Industry Act,

Water Resources Act,

Statutory Water Companies Act,

Land Drainage Act,

935

Water Consolidation (Consequential Provisions) Act,

Statute Law Revision (Isle of Man) Act,

Armed Forces Act,

British Railways Board (Finance) Act,

Breeding of Dogs Act,

Dangerous Dogs Act,

Highland Regional Council (Harbours) Order Confirmation Act,

London Local Authorities Act,

North Yorkshire County Council Act,

Brighton Marine Palace and Pier Act,

Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Measure,

Diocesan Boards of Education Measure.

Adjournment
3 p.m.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, this might be an appropriate moment to thank all those who make the business of your Lordships' House possible, both those who can be seen and those who cannot, for their enormous contribution in making our difficult task easier. At the same time it is appropriate to wish all noble Lords, particularly those on the Benches opposite, a very well-earned rest and recuperation as July drifts into August. I hope that when we return in October it will be with renewed enthusiasm and vigour after the restorative process of the summer months.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, from these Benches I reciprocate what the noble Lord has said. I recall that his predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Denham, was able to say exactly what the House wanted, which left very few words for those who followed him. The same now applies. One does not want to single out any particular category among those who help us. We are all servants of the people, and we have been served very well. We can look back over a Session which has not been as heavy as some others, except that this week, the week in which we go down, we were still sitting at 1.45 a.m. last Monday. The usual channels have had a great deal of work to do, but we have successfully managed to maintain the sense of proportion and decorum which the usual channels of this House have always enjoyed.
The oldest hand, the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, has been able to guide two of his younger companions in the House. I am always grateful for assistance in that respect. We on this side of the House reciprocate the good wishes of the Government Chief Whip and his colleagues. We hope that they have a happy holiday. We al look forward to returning to the House.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I would not wish to criticise the noble Lord for his age-ism. But I hardly consider myself as one of the older brethren; after all, middle age is always 10 years older than you are yourself. Seeing the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, in the distance, that gives us a long time to go. The Government Chief Whip has continued the tradition of his predecessor whom I am pleased to see sitting on the Back Benches. That gives me the opportunity to wish him a happy retirement from his former job. I know that he is going off to write a book, or he is in the middle of doing so. I hope that the summer break will give him the opportunity to renew himself and to return a new man. That also applies to all Members of the House.
The servants of the House in all their guises look after us extremely well. We do not treat them as well as we should on many occasions, whether they be doorkeepers, clerks, waitresses or even civil servants in the Box. I look forward to changes. It has been a year in which we have had increased security. People can be seen with pictures of themselves hanging around the neck and those pictures are not always recognisable. Now that we have the Citizen's Charter, doubtless the Clerks at the Desk will be wearing name badges when we return. In legislative terms it has not been a very full Session, but it has been a particularly tiring one. I believe that we are all ready for a good vacation. I wish everyone a very good holiday and look forward to seeing everyone back in their place on 14th October.
Baroness Hylton-Foster: My Lords, the Cross-Bench Peers would like to be associated with the thanks and good wishes that have already been expressed. We would like to mention our special appreciation for the work done by those whom we very seldom see; for example, the little ladies with the feather brushes who keep all the books clean; and the splendid people who keep all the rooms clean with their mops and brushes. I refer also to the police with their sniffer dogs. In particular this year, we would like to thank the police for keeping an eye on us during the Gulf war and other troubles. I also wish to thank them for their gentle handling of Peers who constantly forget their passes. Finally, we should like to congratulate the doorkeepers on knowing the names of all the new Peers so quickly. We think they are wonderful. We send our good wishes to all who work here.
House adjourned for the Summer Recess at ten minutes past three o'clock, until Monday, 14th October next.

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