Sitting of 20 December 1991

Preamble
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PETITIONS

  Royal Regiment of Wales
  9.35 am
  Mr. Alan Williams: I beg leave to present a petition signed by over 33,000 people of south Wales protesting at the decision to cut the Royal Regiment of Wales Territorial Army strength in south Wales from eight to three companies. It asks the Secretary of State for Defence to reconsider the decision, in view of the valuable role played by the 4th battalion, not only in its duties but in a wide range of community activities:
  Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House will support us by seeking assurances from the Goversnment that the Fourth (Volunteer) Battalion Royal Regiment of Wales is not disbanded and that Wales is not treated unfairly.
  To lie upon the Table.

  RU486
  9.36 am
  Mr. David Atkinson: I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker), signed by more than 200 of his constituents and some of mine, who are members of the Shafesbury Life Group expressing their concern at the licensing of the drug RU486, which remains an experimental drug with unknown risks to women. The signatories
  "deplore the fact that this drug causes the death of unborn human beings, and we express our grave concern that it will damage women physically and psychologically."
  Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House, which is committed to upholding respect for human life and protection of the weak and vulnerable, will do everything possible to prevent the distribution and use of … RU486 … and any other drugs which … are produced with the deliberate intention of destroying innocent human life. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
  To lie upon the Table.

  Business Car Taxation
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Goodlad.]
  9.37 am
  Mr. Roger King: I am pleased to have this opportunity to initiate a debate on the subject of business car taxation. As hon. Members will be aware, the motor industry is especially near to my heart, not only because I represent a constituency with a large car factory, but because the west midlands is largely still dependent on a successful and viable motor car industry in the United Kingdom.
  It is relevant that I should draw attention to the news in the United States today that General Motors has decided to reduce its work force by 75,000 by closing 20 factories. That shows that there exists a difficult problem in maintaining viable car production in the quantities to which we have become used.
  Revenue taken from the road user in the United Kingdom is nearly £20 billion a year, only a small proportion of which is spent on the roads. Those who say that the business car user does not pay his or her track costs should look closely at the total take from the motorist. It is abundantly obvious that the motorist pays a great deal for the track costs of running a car. Nor should one overlook the commercial sector, which also pays substantially for the privilege of running its vehicles on our roads.
  In asking the Minister to look carefully at the way in which the business car is taxed, I shall deal with a number of areas which the Government should examine. I do not say that all of my suggestions should be adopted or that they offer a panacea to a difficult problem, but perhaps the Government should look carefully at how that sector of our business community, which is now well overtaxed, can be helped so that there is an immediate knock-on effect to resuscitate home market demand for cars produced in our factories.
  I regret that help in any form for the business car user is unlikely to come from any other political party. The Liberal Democrats do not approve of such equipment for business use. I presume that they would like everyone to travel by bus or bicycle. Given the Labour party's recent track record when in government, I cannot imagine that it would try to tackle some of the anomalies of business car taxation that have built up in recent years. Labour's attitude to the business car is that it is a perk rather than a business tool.
  For some 70 per cent. of those with access to a business car, it is an essential part of day-to-day business life. It is not a perk, a symbol of their position within a company, or a vehicle to drive home and to the golf club, but a business tool. The present taxation system, which was set up many years ago, fails to take into account the changing circumstances and the different emphasis on how the business car is used today. Some 55 per cent. of all car sales in the United Kingdom are to the business sector. I stress that figure because, without a buoyant and dynamic business sector, the British car industry is set for a difficult time. At present, our car industry is one of the most successful parts of our economic environment. In the past few years, our car industry's balance of payments deficit of £6 billion has been reduced to about £1 billion, which is a tremendous turnround. It is partly as a result of Japanese

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  investment but mostly because some of our existing car companies, such as Ford and Vauxhall, have been able to export in substantial quantities. Eighteen months ago, Ford commenced exports for the first time in 12 years. The achievement of the industry in helping our economic progress is second to none.
  May I issue a word of warning. Although the manufacturing sector of the United Kingdom car industry has been doing well, the retail sector is almost a disaster area, with home market demand down to about 1·5 million units a year. That is a considerable drop from three years ago, when it was well over 2·1 million. With a home market showing little sign of life, the way forward must be to consider a stimulus to return customers and fleet owners to the marketplace. In the recent past—the last Budget did not help—they have been subjected to swingeing increases in taxation which has caused a dearth of orders in the business car market.
  Since the 1988 Budget, personal taxation on company car drivers has increased by 280 per cent., including the introduction of appalling national insurance contributions on company cars and fuel introduced in this year's Budget, against which some of us spoke vehemently. We fail to understand, even now, why business cars should be singled out for an NIC surcharge when desk-top computers, telephones or other essential tools needed for the operation of our commercial sector are not treated in that way. It has compounded all the problems and caused the business car sector to hold back from purchasing new cars.
  I sometimes wonder whether we fully appreciate why we have a business car sector, as it is sometimes considered an unnecessary part of United Kingdom business life. Until recently, it did not exist in a comparable way in any other European country, but more and more European countries are now beginning to realise that the establishment of a proper fleet of cars for business use can result in increased efficiency for the company concerned and can cut costs. We are all in the business of more efficiency and productivity, and this country has a very good track record in managing the fleet car sector. Many other European countries now enjoy that position as a result of British know-how being exported to the rest of the European Community.
  Industry and commerce are scattered throughout the United Kingdom. We have welcomed overspill towns and the redeployment of businesses, sometimes in areas where public transport will never be viable or efficient. Companies have plants all around the United Kingdom which require up-to-date maintenance and visits throughout the year, and it is the task of the business car to conduct that exercise. We also have one of the world's most efficient distribution systems because our representatives can visit every high street in the country, taking orders, discussing with companies their type of market and establishing further business efficiency throughout the land.
  I cannot imagine the impact of a sales director turning up to seek business with a British Rail "Supersaver" or "Awayday" bargain ticket. It would not fit in well with the image that his company was trying to sell. Moreover, if he were using a "Supersaver" ticket, he would have to leave
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  the town well before three o'clock to use the remaining portion of his ticket, so public transport is not a viable alternative.
  Another factor that appeals to the business car user and fleet providers is that, by updating their cars frequently, they can buy safer and more fuel-efficient models. Regular servicing and decent insurance ensures that the cars on our public highways are well maintained and insured. If employees are asked to provide their own cars, they may encounter all kinds of problems. Quality standards in terms of safety and maintenance are likely to be overlooked as employees seek to make cost savings. Difficulties would probably arise over insurance requirements because individual as opposed to fleet insurance may make the operation of the car extremely expensive. If individuals had to provide their own cars, they would want an enhanced salary to compensate for the extra overheads. In addition, there would be the thorny problem of constantly trying to establish an adequate rate of return for the use of the owner's car. A satisfactory arrangement is never arrived at and everyone feels that he is not getting the best deal. It is far better, therefore, to provide a car for business use.
  Given the present state of the business car market, taxation has become extremely excessive. As the Government start to draft next year's Budget, I beg them not to entertain the concept of increasing the burden of taxation on the business car sector. Will they please lay off it, because it has been singled out for penal rates of taxation in the past few years? If we want to maintain a viable car industry, we must introduce changes in the business car taxation system. If we maintain the present level of taxation, the prospect of the British car industry producing wealth, goods and employment in the next few years will be open to question.
  I have no qualms about asking the Government to come down heavily on the perk car. There is no role for the simple perk. If that means taxing the perk car more heavily in any reform of business car taxation, I shall not object. However, I cannot for the life of me understand—nor can anyone else to whom I have spoken—why there is a difference in treatment between the self-employed and those who are employees. The self-employed are subject to schedule D taxation on the business car, but the employee is taxed under schedule E. Why cannot both areas of the business community be treated in the same way? I hope that Ministers will address that puzzle, if not today then at a later date.
  Let us consider benefit in kind and especially the existing mileage limits. I am sure that hon. Members know that the present system has a cut-off at 18,000 miles per annum of business use at which there is a reduction in the tax payable on benefit in kind of 50 per cent. Some 47·6 per cent. of business car users drive fewer than 18,000 miles but more than 2,500 miles a year. Some 45·2 per cent. drive more than 18,000 miles a year. Some 7 per cent. drive only up to 2,500 miles a year. The last figure applies to the genuine perk car.
  Thanks to leasing companies, which keep a careful check on the mileage done by contract cars, there is growing evidence that drivers deliberately use their business cars in the early part of the year to get over the 18,000-mile limit and thus to attract the 50 per cent. discount. The loss to InterCity must be considerable as drivers elect to use their cars to qualify for the 18,000 business miles per year figure. What could be more

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  environmentally damaging than people saying, "I am going to use the car because I must clock up 18,000 miles to get the 50 per cent. discount"? In this day and age when we have green thoughts about everything, that is a crazy system to maintain.
  It is also worth noting that people who drive round our cities may spend all day in their business car. They may be delivering or servicing computers, or servicing washing machines and will probably clock up only 12,000 miles a year. They do not benefit from personal tax reduction.
  I remember debating the issue with my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Treasury in the Finance Bill Committee and she said that such people should use a van so that they would not have to pay tax. That is an absurd answer. It is true that such people could use a van to go to some places, but that would only add to costs, because the user would still have to have a car. If he took his van home, there would be all kinds of problems about whether he was driving it for private use. I suggest that drivers who only do 12,000 miles around a city and who do not qualify for the reduction of taxation on benefit in kind may drive a private car to the works to pick up the van, use the van to drive back to near where they live to start their servicing work and in the evening go back home in the private car. That is very ungreen and complete nonsense.
  I suggest to my hon. Friend that in the scale charges for benefit in kind, the arbitrary figure of 18,000 miles is complete nonsense. I know that many solutions are advocated by different people, which is one of my hon. Friend's problems. Everyone has a different solution to those matters and I am aware that my hon. Friend works under the great difficulty of having to listen to many representations.
  It seems to me that there should be two categories. The first is the genuine perk car which should be clobbered fairly hard. After that, all business cars should receive a discount on benefit in kind taxation and there should be no mileage limit. To qualify for a discount, it should not matter whether a car is driven for 3,000 or 50,000 miles a year. That would stop some motorists seeking to do as many miles as possible to qualify for the artificial 18,000 mile barrier.
  The scale bands at present are decided by the cubic capacity of engine size. That is complete nonsense and is as old fashioned as the horsepower rating which was once used to tax cars under the road fund licence. It is anti-environmental and discriminates against technical improvements. The present cut-offs are from up to 1,400 cc, from 1,400 cc to 2 litres and from 2 litres upwards.
  As my hon. Friend knows, because I have talked about this in Finance Bill Committees on several occasions, the scale bands discriminate against the diesel car which is known to be more environmentally acceptable. By virtue of its engine system it has a to have a larger cubic capacity to get a similar power rating as a smaller-sized, petrol-driven car. We seem to be saying, "For goodness sake, do not worry about fuel economy of the car. Just go for arbitrary cubic capacity limits."
  Vauxhall is building a factory at Ellesmere Port to make a new V-6 engine. The technology of that engine is very advanced and it is anticipated from early test results that its fuel economy will be especially attractive. However, as it is a 2·5 litre engine, it will find no use in the fleet car market, although its fuel consumption may be lower than that of a comparable 2 litre engine. What sense does that make in this day and age when we are anxious to
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  ensure that the motorist carries out his environmental obligations? I hope that my hon. Friend will pay particular attention to stimulating a new regime for scale banding which is based on fuel economy.
  I suggest that the present three bands could be replaced by new bands for cars that do up to 20 miles per gallon, cars that do up to 30 miles per gallon and cars that do up to 40 miles per gallon, although I should prefer four bands with the fourth band being for cars that do up to 50 miles per gallon. How would we arrive at the figures? Every car sold has to have Government fuel consumption figures attached to it. It has to be tested and the figures have to be prominently displayed. However, we cannot just take those figures. We could devise a better system which takes more into account the commuter mileage. We need to reduce as much daily commuter traffic as possible by arriving at touring fuel consumption figures.
  The weekly magazine Autocar and Motor has formulated the figures over the years and it gives a useful guide to the fuel consumption characteristics of cars available in the United Kingdom market. The formula is arrived at by using 50 per cent. of the urban cycle, and 25 per cent. each of the 56 mph and 75 mph steady speed cycles which are already available, thanks to Government requirements. That would enable business car users to make a choice. If they wanted a more fuel-efficient car, we would reward them by placing it in a lower scale band so they would pay less tax.
  If we are serious about reducing the amount of carbon dioxide emissions, such a scheme must be the way forward. We must not simply remain wedded to the idea that brute power cubic capacity is the be-all and end-all of internal combustion efficiency. It is not, and it is time that we redrew the scale charges to take into account improvements in technology and new forms of cars such as the diesel car.
  My hon. Friend may say that it is a little difficult to start tinkering with the bands. The Government did that a few years ago when they were anxious to help British Leyland which had an engine that did not fit conveniently into the existing scale band charges. The Government moved the scale band charges so that the nationalised company's engine fell into the new category. There is no reason why something similar cannot be done again, but I hope that it will be based on touring fuel consumption so that the Government send a clear signal that they are serious about environmental matters and the company car.
  Now I shall address corporate car taxation. The £8,000 writing down allowance has remained static since its introduction in 1979 as a luxury car limit. Even though powers were taken to enable the figure to be altered by statutory instrument, that has never happened. The average cost of a new car used for business purposes is now in excess of £10,000 and the major proportion of cars financed by way of lease and contract hire now falls within the £8,000 restriction.
  As I have already said, Britain has an enviable track record of fleet management which has been exported to other European countries, yet in this case there is evidence that the Government's fiscal measures have not caught up with the changing pattern in the provision of cars for fleet use.
  Now that the private usage of the business car is taxed in excess of its realistic value, the £8,000 luxury car limit has become an anachronism. The limit should be indexed or scrapped, because the compliance costs have become a

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  considerable burden to businesses which must maintain two sets of figures to acknowledge real depreciation and the tax allowances after caculating the £2,000 per annum maximum limit.
  The £8,000 restriction in deductibility of lease rentals must be addressed. The allowance does not apply to cars purchased outright or to those financed by other means such as bank loans. It applies exclusively to cars financed by means of leasing and contract hire. That is clearly unmitigated discrimination against the leasing contract hire business.
  The car user's position is now being seriously affected by out-of-date legislation which is creating an unnatural situation in favour of purchase as opposed to contract hire for cars costing above around £12,000. Many users would prefer the administrative advantages of a hire agreement but are forced into purchasing due to the inequality of treatment of their car cost by the Revenue.
  I welcome the enactment of section 61 of the Capital Allowances Act 1991 which removes the previous area of doubt in the interpretation of the 1990 Act as it applies to the HP case. My acute concern about the discriminatory treatment of leasing nevertheless remains. That serious anomaly is long overdue for review in order to avoid the proliferation of hybrid schemes which attempt to circumvent the problem.
  On several occasions Ministers have committed themselves to the general principle of fiscal neutrality and the avoidance of artificial distortions in the tax system. The rental disallowance is such a clear case of discrimination against the leasing contract hire business that, in equity, its retention cannot be justified.
  Another anomaly is the £19,250 price barrier, which has also remained unchanged for years. Unless it is moved upwards technological improvements cannot be featured in the modern company car. Nowadays, with anti-lock braking systems costing about £1,000 to fit in the average car and better security, the challenge of fitting cars with such essential devices—anyone who has driven a car without a skid brake will know that it should be a standard fitment on all cars—and keeping company cars under the £19,250 price barrier is becoming well nigh impossible. Are we therefore to say to the business car sector, which accounts for 55 per cent. of car sales in the United Kingdom that we are sorry but we do not want it to fit the latest technology because it is too expensive? No, we should raise that figure, certainly by 10 per cent., in order to encourage greater technical improvement in the average company car.
  The non-deductibility of VAT is another strange anomaly. We understand that the Government take the view that there is a trade-off for the undertaxation of the user's benefit arising from private usage, which may have applied not so long ago, but does not now. There is surely some opportunity for about 50 per cent. of VAT to be deducted from the company car in line with other European countries. That is one way in which the manufacturing sector could be stimulated. It would be a major step forward if businesses were allowed some deductibility of VAT.
  But a word of warning to my hon. Friend. There is much fashionable talk that the vehicle excise licence should be scrapped and passed on in the cost of fuel. In principle,
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  that is not a bad idea, but doing it instantly in one fell swoop would be disastrous. It would throw up all kinds of anomalies, pain and anguish throughout the country. The Government could allow the £100 vehicle excise licence to wither on the vine during the next few years so that it becomes less and less important. They should not sweep it away in one go or it could result in an unwelcome backlash in the marketplace.
  Finally, I should like some reduction in the special car tax. I should like that to go in one fell swoop. It may not be possible, but I could not sit down without making a further plea for the special car tax to be considered as a candidate for reduction in order to help the United Kingdom car industry.
  I am sure that my hon. Friend is more than a little sympathetic to some of the points that I have made, because she has said as much on previous occasions. I do not expect all my proposals to be embraced and carried out, some perhaps, but I hope that the Treasury will start thinking along some of the lines that I have suggested on behalf of the industry. That would be more than welcome and would send out a clear signal that the Government recognise the role of business car users. They have an important role to play within the community. Their jobs, which require business cars, provide wealth and employment, principally in the west midlands but also in the British car industry generally which employs nearly 1 million people.
  10.6 am
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mrs. Gillian Shephard): I welcome the opportunity to reply to the range of interesting points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. King). As the House knows, he has considerable expertise in and knowledge of these matters and is a valiant campaigner on behalf of the United Kingdom motor industry and the west midlands motor industry in particular. Such was his eloquence and such is his detailed knowledge of the matter that I shall have to be fairly brief in replying to his separate points.
  The Government have no quarrel with a number of fundamental assessments made by my hon. Friend. First, we fully recognise the key importance of the motor industry to the United Kingdom's manufacturing base and to national prosperity. We have a successful motor industry and our policies during the past 12 years have played no small part in that.
  At the end of the 1970s, the motor industry illustrated everything that was going wrong in our industrial life. It was overmanned, strike-ridden, to a large degree nationalised and, for the most part, had an unattractive product range. However, since then the position has been transformed. The industry has seen huge productivity gains, it has much more harmonious industrial relations and it produces superb cars, the qualities of which are constantly sung by my hon. Friend and his colleagues in the west midlands.
  The British car industry is growing. The United Kingdom is seen as a good place in which to build cars. Motor analysts continue to predict that United Kingdom car production will reach the 2 million mark by the late 1990s.
  I would not argue with my hon. Friend's point that the recession has brought difficulties for the car industry. He is right to draw attention to the important role played by

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  the business car in Britain. There is no doubt that the business car is an integral part of modern business. Many businesses could not operate efficiently without cars. Of the total stock of 20 million cars, it is estimated that 5 million are owned by businesses and 3 million owned by individuals are used on occasions for business purposes.
  For a variety of reasons, not least that in the past they were very much undertaxed, company cars tend to be more prevalent in the United Kingdom than in other EC member states. That is why it is important to consider carefully the tax regime which applies to them.
  My hon. Friend will not be surprised when I say that I can make no specific comment this morning on his suggestions for the forthcoming Budget—clearly, I cannot anticipate what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor might wish to do in his Budget next year—but I assure him that my right hon. Friend and I and other Treasury Ministers will continue to listen carefully to representatives of the car industry as we lead up to next year's Budget.
  The Government's broad policy thrust on the taxation of benefits in kind is to ensure neutrality in tax treatment between payments in cash and payments in kind. I know that my hon. Friend opposes the concept, as do the Government, of a business car simply as a perk. The car scale structure, which has been in place in broadly its current form since the mid-1970s, has served us reasonably well. However, it is no part of that structure to tax the business use of company cars; merely their private use. The structure of the tax bands recognises the difference between high business mileage and the so-called perk car.
  It is never difficult to point to anomalies, because there are only five categories of car tax scale. However, there is simplicity and certainty in the current regime. My hon. Friend mentioned national insurance contributions on company cars. It was sensible to tackle cars in the light of the Government's overall aim of obtaining neutrality between cash and benefits in kind because cars represent about three quarters by value of all benefits in kind. National insurance contributions also apply to payment by gilts and will be extended to unit trusts and equities. Therefore, cars are not being singled out.
  My hon. Friend suggested that car scales should be banded by reference not to engine size but to fuel economy. That would not necessarily remove the kind of anomalies for which the current scheme is criticised. It might lead to more anomalies and, given that the main policy aim is to tax the value of cars to individual drivers, fuel economy would not necessarily be the best way to achieve that. My hon. Friend is enthusiastic about diesel
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  cars and raised the matter in our debate on the Finance Bill last year. In reply at that time, my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary explained that the car scale bands cover a fairly wide range of cars and that there were no compelling reasons for distinguishing diesels. My hon. Friend was right to speak about the increase in efficiency of diesel engines and he also spoke about the development of an engine at Ellesmere Port. I shall not dare to enter the fierce environmental debate about the relative merits of diesel fuel and unleaded petrol.
  My hon. Friend spoke about cars costing more than £19,250. Such limits are closely examined every year in the budgetary process. He questions the different treatment of taxpayers in schedules D and E. I do not entirely accept that there is a fundamental difference between the two, because for self-employed taxpayers the individual costs of each car are apportioned between private and business use for tax purposes. That is what used to happen for schedule E and the change to scales is mainly to simplify administration and to save arduous record keeping. The substantial discounts that are available for increasing business use give a fair approximation of the individual apportionments within schedule D.
  The £8,000 limit on capital allowances is also kept under review, and we are aware of the concern about the effect of these restrictions. My hon. Friend suggests that the 18,000 mile threshold should be reduced. It is, of course, a broad brush threshold in the way that it affects differently those whose mileage is mostly in urban areas and those who have large distances to travel for business purposes. It is kept under review, but it works tolerably well.
  My hon. Friend also spoke about the VAT input tax on cars. That has not been recoverable on company cars since the start of VAT in 1973. Most company cars have some private use and if the VAT on their purchase were fully recoverable, a system would have to be introduced to tax the private use and the subsequent sale of the car. That would complicate the administration of the tax.
  I reiterate that the Government take seriously the interests of the car industry. I cannot make any commitment about what the Chancellor will decide to do in the next Budget. We shall consider the serious points that have been made in the debate and in the many meetings that the Chancellor and I have had with the car trade. The Government's main concern has been to increase the level of company car scale charges with a view to obtaining parity of tax treatment between those paid in cash and those paid partly in cash and partly in kind.

  Rolls-Royce
  10.15.am
  Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: About 85 years ago, a business partnership developed which some would have said was the ideal combination. It was almost a business marriage made in heaven, because it was between a Mr. Royce and a Mr. Rolls. Mr. Royce was an inspired engineer, a man of great ability who understood not only how to create a very important and efficient motor car but how to maintain its quality. He also knew that his customers would appreciate that. Mr. Rolls had a car sales shop in London, and they created a building which became synonymous with everything that was best in British engineering. When people talk about quality they say, "This is a Rolls-Royce product," and they are unaware of mentioning anything unusual.
  My constituency faces one of the most frightening aspects of the development of the recession in Great Britain. Many companies have faced difficulties, but the Rolls-Royce motor company has always succeeded in returning large profits because, throughout the world, its customers valued each Rolls-Royce and were prepared to buy new models with only minor changes and to commit themselves to large sums to guarantee a first-class product.
  That was not really surprising, because the first Mr. Royce charged a great deal of money for his car. The original cost was £900, and Rolls-Royce cars have not become any cheaper. The cars maintain a high standard of hand work. It was not just the coachwork that was important to the customer but the quality of the engineering. Many people were trained as Rolls-Royce chauffeurs and it was customary to find details of such training added to qualifications for a job. Unless people understood the Rolls-Royce, they would not be taken on to look after one of these special motor cars.
  It is important for the House to understand the difficulties that face Rolls-Royce and especially what is happening to my constituents. When Rolls-Royce was broken up, the aero engine division formed a separate company and Rolls-Royce Motor Cars was floated and became a profitable concern. Not only do our royals have Rolls-Royce cars in their stables, but Rolls-Royce cars used to be the accepted form of transport for ambassadors and the heads of industry. That should still be the practice, because it incorporates an image of the United Kingdom.
  However, Vickers took over Rolls-Royce in 1980. It is a traditional engineering company and, during my time as a Member of the House, it has not only had a direct involvement in defence engineering but has received over the years a substantial amount of taxpayers' money in terms of research and development. Vickers' corporate ethos is different from that of the car company, and it was obviously aware of that, because it took over the services of Sir David Plastow, who joined Rolls-Royce as a young man.
  When Rolls-Royce began to produce a large part of Vickers' profits, one hoped that that contribution would be appreciated. However, the recession totally changed Vickers' attitude to one of its hitherto most profitable and constructive manufacturing units. That became clear less than a year ago, when Vickers Precision Engineering—another part of the group—faced real difficulties in my constituency.
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  With little concern being shown for the unions or the work force, immediate changes were made to that company's work patterns. The principle of first in, last out, was jettisoned without consultation or any attempt at explaining to the work force why it had been done. Many employees found themselves treated with scant respect and little understanding.
  I know that, because I made representations to Vickers' management in respect of workers at a particular foundry. It was made clear to me that those workers' loyalty, preparedness to adopt new techniques and understanding of the need for flexibility would not deflect the management from their intention to close that foundry. That was a clear sign of Vickers' new attitude towards many of its engineering units.
  What subsequently happened to Rolls-Royce was horrendous and totally irresponsible. When the recession first hit the company, it was obvious that it would grow more severe. The present management has a great deal to answer for in the existing situation. For a long time, there was a feeling that being a member of Rolls-Royce management was something of a soft option. Only a few years ago, the company had not only full order books but a waiting list, with some customers having to wait years to obtain the model that they wanted. Customers in many parts of the world were prepared not only to go on the waiting list, but even to pay a deposit to be able to join it.
  There was no question of management having to go out to sell its product all over the world. In effect, it stayed at home and the world came trundling to its door. The result was an incredibly frightening inertia and an increasing inability to understand that, marvellous though the product was, it had to be sold—particularly in countries adopting new engineering and anti-pollution techniques and other innovations.
  Rolls-Royce management eventually acknowledged those trends and was prepared to make product changes—but did not recognise the signs that, in future, the company would not have it all its own way, but would need to invest heavily in research and development and invest continually to develop its overseas markets.
  It is noticeable that, since the war, there have been only five new Rolls-Royce models. It is not a car that alters every year—and it was that very stability and purity of line that attracted many customers in the past. They understood that they were buying a high-quality car, and did not seek superficial changes to its trim, or new bows fitted in inaccessible places, just to prove that they had purchased the latest model. Rolls-Royce's customers were content in the knowledge that the car's quality represented value for money.
  Unfortunately, that is no longer true. Eventually, there were clear signs that the company was in severe financial difficulties, with overseas sales dropping noticeably. Management began to talk about work force cuts, and then imposed a three-day week.
  My real complaint about the company's management is that it reacted in the most incredibly panicky way to a situation that is not entirely unusual, and which one can expect to change for the better when the country begins to emerge from the present appalling recession.
  With the start of the three-day week, it was also made clear to the work force that there would be until Christmas several weeks of restraint, during which it would be required to work only a number of hours—and that over the Christmas holiday there would be a long lay-off, which

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  would be economic from the company's point of view. The work force was prepared to accept that, because it believed that the new year would bring not only an increase in work but a return to a stable throughput of cars.
  There has been tremendous co-operation with Rolls-Royce management at every level of the unions. Unfortunately, that may have been misinterpreted not as sensible flexibility or acceptance of the pressures on the company resulting from the recession, but a weak-willed inability on the part of the work force to understand the economy. Certainly there was no sign that management would, for its part, exercise tolerance and be similarly prepared to negotiate changes rather than impose them.
  In the 1970s, Rolls-Royce was in considerable difficulties at one London plant, which had work force troubles. There were strikes, and clear signs that the unions at the Mulliner Park Ward factory, whose members were producing high-quality, customised vehicles, were ready to fight their corner with intransigence. That has never been true of the work force at Crewe.
  I emphasise that, because a high-quality product relies on the quality of the work force that produces it—the two are directly linked. One cannot produce a motor car of such a standard by machine and assemble it like a Meccano set, with pieces bought in from small factories in the west midlands. There may be an upturn in the sale of popular cars, but customers throughout the world willing to pay the kind of money that is asked for a Rolls-Royce do not want a popular car off the production line that has been manufactured by a series of robots—even though such cars may be in their company fleets and be owned by members of their own families. Such customers buy a Rolls-Royce because they know that a substantial proportion of the car has been handmade.
  I refer not just to the upholstery. Some of the media seem to believe that a Rolls-Royce is an ordinary car with some nice veneer and expensive hide seats. In fact, it is a very special car, because much of its engineering is handmade. People are quick to say. "How extraordinarily 1910—still to have a quality product made largely by hand."
  That is a bizarre attitude to take. If one visits an expensive jewellers on Christmas Eve, one will find people buying high-quality products. They do not make those purchases because they imagine that those items have been turned out by a multiple jewellers' manufacturing flat unit in Birmingham—excellent though such products may be. Those customers will be looking for high-quality hand work and for something that will last them for as long as they wish to keep it. That has always been the type of product that Rolls-Royce has produced.
  I return to the point that the work force at Rolls-Royce, apart from being highly skilled, is stable. It has given the management no problems in terms of consistent strikes, an inability to accept new working patterns or a refusal to consider the need for flexibility.
  How is the work force to be repaid for its loyalty? Some of the families of those in the present work force have seen every male member working at Rolls-Royce—grandfathers, fathers, uncles and brothers. They were devastated when they were told suddenly during trade union negotiations that the company is in real difficulties and that it intends to impose new Japanese-style working practices.
  If the House thinks that I exaggerate, I shall recount exactly what happened. With the company on a three-day
  580
  week, and the unions having accepted a two-week lay-off over Christmas and the new year, negotiations began with the management. The unions knew that there would be a series of meetings. Without any consultation, however, the management decided that it would close down, as it were, and that it would go for 420 compulsory redundancies.
  The unions responded by saying that they were still prepared to talk with the management representatives. They decided that they would offer alternative measures that would not make it less likely that the company would get the economic result that it wanted but would cushion both the work force and the factory against the worst of the consequences of the company's difficulties. In effect, the unions said "Change is best negotiated. Co-operation is won through consultation—the future by agreement."
  The company had already imposed what was called a new green book. In effect, it was a one-sided agreement between the management and the work force. It then announced, in the most frightening and panicky move that could ever have been taken, that there would be 420 compulsory redundancies.
  I shall tell the House how the management made the redundancies known to the work force. It should be remembered that the management is supposed to understand the needs of modern industry. What did it do? On the last Friday of the month, it suddenly decided that they would issue compulsory redundancy notices. It was so ill prepared that it was forced to use a series of motor cycle messengers and a manager in a Rolls-Royce to go round throwing the redundancy notices at the employees concerned.
  When I say "throwing", I am not exaggerating. One man, who was working on the line, had his notice flung into the car on which he was working. That was followed by the man who threw it at him saying, "They've got you." Some employees received their redundancy notice in the post. Some ex-wives were given employees' redundancy notices. In some instances, employees were tapped on the shoulder and told, "Don't report back to work. Leave now and take your things."
  The resultant chaos and deep emotional upset had never been seen before in my constituency. I am talking about people who had gone into Rolls-Royce to be trained as apprentices and who had remained there throughout their working lives. They found that everyone they knew was in the same situation. They were given a letter that suggested that they had a right of appeal and that they would have the chance to challenge what was described as an "evaluation" of their working abilities.
  Those evaluations caused deep offence. I am sure that they will be the subject of complaints when many appeals are taken to the tribunal. Men who had city and guilds qualifications and many years of practical experience, and who were still comparatively young, were told by people who did not have the same engineering experience, "You are not capable of doing the job. You are not flexible. You cannot move from one place of work to another. You will have to go out on the stones."
  The company's position soon became clear to those who were targeted. Some of them had a specific problem. For example, one man looks after his 81-year-old mother. He was told, "You must go because you are not flexible. You can't do night work." There were others who had had minor illnesses in the past. Many of the others who were targeted had one black side that stood against them—they

  581
  were trade union representatives. That was the worst crime of all. When the compulsory redundancies were announced, 16 shop stewards went out of the door.
  It was clear that it was the intention of Rolls-Royce to move from being a responsible, highly regarded and important manufacturer producing luxury cars to one that could be regarded as the worst sort of manufacturer of cheap goods. That has produced real agony in my constituency, and real anger. There were men in tears on the shop floor. Men came into my constituency office and it was clear that they were devastated by being given notice and by the savagery with which it had been done. They were entirely undermined, as were their views of themselves.
  Why has the company found it necessary to behave in such a brutal and unimaginative way? Is it a company which has no future? Is the company so poor and have we become so much a third-world country that it has to be sold to the highest bidder, who preferably will be foreign and who will take over a high-quality name and sell the goods elsewhere in the world? Far from it.
  One of the reasons for there being so much ill will within my constituency—I was amazed when I was told about this—was that, when the management was behaving in the way in which I have described, there was a growing waiting list for a new Bentley—the Bentley Continental—that will cost £160,000. It seems that the "gamble", as it was described in The Times on 1 July 1991, has paid off. Customers have snapped up the first two years of production, placing deposits of £20,000 on each of the 600 Continentals. That has been done well before the first car will be made in November. Deposits alone have raised more than £12 million.
  There is a strong suspicion in my constituency that Rolls-Royce is subsidising much of the redundancy costs through the pensions holiday that it has enjoyed over the past five years as a result of the Government's legislation. There is a worry that some firms plan to subsidise redundancy payments on the basis that they have made no contributions to pension funds. What could be greater cynicism that that?
  There is a long waiting list for a new high-quality car, the Continental. The company has already taken many deposits. Rolls-Royce said, "If we were choosing a time to launch the Continental, it would have been difficult to pick a more turbulent period to do so." It then talked about sales in America and what has happened to the company because of additional taxation of 10 per cent. in America, and various other problems that have made real changes necessary.
  Rolls-Royce has shed about 700 jobs at Crewe this year and a further 500 from the Mulliner Park Ward coachbuilding subsidiary in London. The result is simple. In December 1991, unemployment in my constituency was 4,276–7·9 per cent. That is an increase, from December 1990, of 47·3 per cent. That is happening because Rolls-Royce, British Rail Engineering Ltd. and a number of small companies are going under.
  Rolls-Royce has contributed to that number for one simple reason. It said in public that it intended to move towards new Japanese-style work practices and that there was a great deal of enthusiasm for the move among the work force. I see astonishingly little sign of it. I believe that
  582
  the work force has been betrayed. Its loyalty, its commitment and the many hard times that it has endured in the past have been totally ignored by the management, which thinks that in future it will be able to rip off not just its work force but its customers.
  If we move towards a system under which many engine parts are bought in and much of the work that is presented to the customer is said to be acceptable simply because of the veneering, the coachwork and the upholstery, we shall soon find that the marketplace will begin to react. Rolls-Royce customers know what an engine ought to sound like. They know what quality they want. They will not continue to buy Rolls-Royce cars if they are not provided with the same quality of product as they enjoyed in the past.
  What has been the Government's role? Some of the legislation has not improved the position. Furthermore, the Government have a great deal to answer for in their handling of the economy. We are in a deep recession which is going on far longer and is doing far more damage to our manufacturing base than was envisaged. There are those who would ask, "What is the loss of one major motor car company compared with the loss of so many of our high-quality manufacturing companies?" I would say in reply that Rolls-Royce has become almost an emblem of what is important to British engineering. It has trained generations of engineers. Rolls-Royce cars have been sold all over the world and have always stood for first-class quality.
  Many German manufacturers seem to be better at making a profit than we are. They would be happy to take over this factory and its product. Yesterday, I was asked by Rolls-Royce representatives to speak to them because of their deep concern that the Prime Minister had been seen getting out of a Mercedes car at Maastricht. They were deeply affronted and upset about that. I do not see why that should surprise Rolls-Royce. If the company carries on as it is now, the Prime Minister will be seen getting out of a BMW. if not a Mercedes, and if he is not getting out of a BMW he may even arrive in a Fiat. If we go on for very much longer in this way, the Prime Minister will soon demonstrate his vision of a classless society by arriving in the smallest type of Japanese car.
  Incompetent people, sitting in front offices, are not involved in manufacturing. They are not important to the people of this country, but without its work force Rolls-Royce would not exist. Who do the people sitting in front offices think is making their profits for them? They are being made by the men and women on the shop floor who have devoted their lives to this company but who have been treated with contempt by management which is totally unconcerned about their future, or the future of my constituency.
  On the spirit of ecstasy—that very beautiful lady, synonymous in line and shape with all that is best in Rolls-Royce, who sits on my desk at home—shadows occasionally move. Sometimes it looks as though the spirit of ecstasy is weeping. In my view, she is weeping for the time when quality, commitment to the work force and, above all, responsibility were something that Rolls-Royce stood for. Those days may be long gone.
  10.44 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Edward Leigh): I am glad to have this opportunity to reply on the important subject of Rolls-Royce, one of our finest engineering companies. I do not necessarily agree with everything that the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) said, but it is obvious that she speaks with great knowledge of these matters and with great commitment to her constituents. The whole House will therefore be grateful to her for bringing the company's problems to our attention.
  The future of the company is a matter of great concern to us all, and the Department is therefore following developments very closely. As the hon. Lady said, the Rolls-Royce motor car is a symbol of British excellence. Without any doubt, it is the best car in the world. It represents our country well beyond our borders. Everyone recognises it for what it is—the product of British skill and craftsmanship. As the hon. Lady said—I have walked around the works in Crewe—it is not just a question of excellent design or good upholstery. Excellence in craftsmanship and engineering goes right to the heart of every component in the car. If hon. Members have any free time, I recommend that they visit that factory. It is a revelation to see just how excellent our engineering standards can be. The hon. Lady spoke in moving terms about that and I endorse everything that she said about this wonderful British product.
  Rolls-Royce has enjoyed a decade of success. However, I am just as concerned as the hon. Lady that this company, which is a national institution, now finds itself having to tackle some very difficult problems. A series of events have occurred that have had a serious effect on the market for these luxury cars. World economic conditions, the war in the Gulf and tax changes in the vital United States market have combined to stifle sales. The hon. Lady may be relieved to hear that only last week the Secretary of State wrote to the United States Government about their swingeing tax on luxury cars. We await a reply. We are working with the European Commission on that subject. I assure the hon. Lady that the Secretary of State is concerned about the effect that that United States tax has had and we intend to take action.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: I am grateful to the Minister for making that point. We are very concerned that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has not visited the Crewe factory and has not looked at any of the other problems that we have encountered. I hope that the Department of Trade and Industry will make representations with real vigour. The Secretary of State certainly does not seem to understand that there is a problem.
  Mr. Leigh: I can assure the hon. Lady that the Secretary of State has met the chairman of Vickers and is pursuing the matter with great vigour. She knows that our regional office has done a considerable amount of work. Mr. John Pownall, regional director of the Department of Trade and Industry in the north-west, has had a series of meetings with the Crewe development agency. At the most recent meeting, on 25 November. we offered the agency £40,000 of matching grants to meet half the costs of two projects, to help to develop a strategy for technology transfer and a business in the environment programme for firms in the borough. I hope that the hon. Lady accepts that the
  584
  Department of Trade and Industry is taking steps to help. I am happy to visit her constituency to meet the borough council with her. It is most important that Department of Trade and Industry Ministers do not spend all their time in London, important though our responsibilities to the House are, but travel around the country, as I do almost every day of the week. I hope that that commitment will help the hon. Lady. I have already visited the works, but if I were invited I should be delighted to visit again.
  Rolls-Royce is the last significant domestic car maker wholly owned by British interests and it is therefore right that the whole House should follow developments closely. Vickers acquired the company for £35 million in 1980. It was floated in 1973 after the collapse of its then parent aero-engine maker in 1971. City estimates of its current value vary between £250 million and £600 million. In the following 10 years, investment proved profitable and as late as last year—it is important to make this point, because it puts the debate in perspective—it made nearly one third of Vickers' £100 million profits. With the collapse of sales, in 1991 it will make an estimated loss of £60 million. Its problems are serious, but we hope that the parent company, Vickers, has the resources to overcome the problem; it is clearly seeking to do so.
  A brief look at what has happened in the United States is a good, if unhappy, illustration of what Rolls-Royce faces. In a typical year, almost half the cars that it produces are exported to that country. In 1990, it assembled a total of 3,300 cars and, as usual, about 50 per cent. were exported to the United States. Compared with last year, sales in the United States have fallen by half this year. Overall, it seems that this year's total sales for Rolls-Royce cars will be some 50 per cent. lower than in 1990.
  I hope that hon. Members will join me in understanding the difficult market conditions that all luxury car makers are facing and the need for them to take positive but difficult steps to secure their future. In the markedly changed circumstances in which Rolls-Royce Motor Cars finds itself, the company has been taking urgent and sometimes painful decisions to restructure its manufacturing operations and to bring costs into line with the new and much lower level of sales.
  As the representative of the factory's workers, the hon. Lady dealt with the issue of job losses, which of course are regrettable at any time. I appreciate hon. Members' concern for the employment prospects of Rolls-Royce's work force at Crewe, but manning is a matter for the commercial judgment of the company and it would be counterproductive for the Government to try to intervene in the normal commercial processes. I do not think that the hon. Lady, despite her criticism of the company, suggested that we should do so.
  Inevitably, companies sometimes have to adjust or rationalise their structure, employment levels or product lines because of changing market conditions. As the hon. Lady said, the work force has been cut by almost a third. Redundancies of more than 1,200 have reduced it to about 3,000. A three-day week is being worked and there will be an extended Christmas shut-down at Crewe. I am told that the work force is co-operating in the introduction of flexible working practices. The company is 10 weeks into a complete review of the business and how it can be made more efficient. It believes that those measures will reduce its costs by £640 million, and thus enable it to achieve a break-even point at an output of several hundred cars

  585
  fewer than previously. One regrets any redundancies, but I am sure that the hon. Lady will accept that, through no fault of the company's the market in the United States has collapsed.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Unfortunately, people have come to understand that redundancies, properly handled by union negotiation, are necessary under a Conservative Government. What they will never accept is the brutal ignorance of the manner in which these redundancies were made and the savagery with which all internal relationships have been destroyed. That is why so many union shop stewards had to go. The company will find it almost impossible to operate in the future.
  Mr. Leigh: I listened with great care to the hon. Lady's remarks on those matters and I have noted them. She will not expect me to comment on them now, but no doubt inquiries can be made later.
  The decision as how best to safeguard the company is a commercial decision for the owners. Vickers plc, which has owned Rolls-Royce since 1980, should look at what avenues are open to secure a successful future for Rolls-Royce. It has said that it will examine all the options and make an announcement at the appropriate time. At this stage, I share the company's confidence that Rolls-Royce Motor Cars will recover from its present trading difficulties.
  The hon. Lady referred to speculation that Vickers might want to dispose of Rolls-Royce Motor Cars. There has been speculation in the press that there might be an outright sale or that an outsider might take a substantial shareholding. Companies such as BMW, Ford and General Motors have been mentioned. For the time being, that is only press speculation and the House would be wise to treat it as such. The important point that I want to convey is that Vickers is confident that Rolls-Royce Motor Cars will recover from its present trading difficulties. However, changes in manufacturing methods and working practices may have implications for employment.
  The company's commitment to produce the highest-quality cars for the long term is shown by the fact that, despite a difficult year for sales in 1991, expenditure on
  586
  research and development is being maintained at a similar level to that in 1990. The hon. Lady mentioned research and development. If the company is to retain its competitive edge, it must maintain expenditure on research and development.
  Rolls-Royce, in keeping with its reputation for technological excellence, has continued to innovate and refine its products. For example, fuel consumption has been improved by more than 25 per cent. in the past five years.
  Rolls-Royce Motor Cars also manufactures the Bentley marque. Bentley has achieved much of the company's success, and some 60 per cent. of the company's sales are under the Bentley badge.
  Employment prospects for the work force are naturally tied to the continued commercial success of the company and its technology. I have already confirmed my confidence in Rolls-Royce's future.
  Despite what has been written by motoring journalists, one could hardly contemplate assembly outside this country being successful without the loss of one of the essential attractions of the car—its unique Britishness. To reassure the hon. Lady, I refer to the trade mark issue, which is important. Rolls-Royce plc, the aero-engine maker, owns and licenses the Rolls-Royce Motor Cars trademark, but Vickers plc owns the company. Under the original licensing agreement, Rolls-Royce plc retains the right to withdraw the use of the name Rolls-Royce in whole or in part if the car business is sold to a foreign buyer. That right extends to areas other than ownership—for example, quality—and Rolls-Royce plc regularly monitors the licence. That is an important protection which the hon. Lady did not mention.
  I stress that one of the essential attractions of the car is its unique Britishness. The continuing manufacture of Rolls-Royce cars in Britain is thus of prime importance. I hope that the main assembly facility at Crewe will therefore have an assured future. That future may involve some type of partnership or collaboration, because the cost of development is high. However, as I have already said, what option to follow is a matter for the owner——
  It being Eleven o'clock,MR. SPEAKER interrupted the proceedings, pursuant to Standing Order No. 11 (Friday sittings).

  Fisheries Council
  11 am
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Curry): With permission, I would like to make a statement on the outcome of the Fisheries Council held earlier this week.
  I attended the Council of Fisheries Ministers on 17 and 18 December, together with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, Lord Strathclyde.
  I undertook to the House to fight for the application of the Hague preference, mackerel flexibility, better fishing opportunities, where they could be obtained within the bounds of scientific advice, and alternatives to the current eight-day tie-up rule. We achieved all of these.
  On the tie-up rule, we were faced with a Commission proposal for 200 days. Some restriction is necessary to conserve the stocks, but we secured agreement that there should be a choice between this year's requirement for eight consecutive days tie-up each month and an option for vessels to tie up for 135 days in total, on the same catch criteria as last year. The exact details of this are for us to work out, so that we can ensure the flexibility which was missing from this year's arrangement.
  We shall also be able to give fishermen the choice of using more selective gear instead of all or part of their tie-up obligations. We shall need to put proposals to the Commission under the same procedure as this year. We shall do so early in the new year and the new rules will come into force on 1 February 1992.
  These measures, combined with the improvements in technical conservation measures which are being introduced from next June, will be important in safeguarding the cod and haddock stocks which are so important to our fishermen, while covering the range of interests of the United Kingdom's industry much better than this year's rules.
  We not only secured the flexibility to take western mackerel east of 4 deg. west but, for the first time, secured agreement to take the full quantity provided for in the Community's agreement with Norway. This will greatly help our fishermen, who have faced considerable difficulties because of the changed migratory pattern of the mackerel, by enabling them to take up to 36,370 tonnes, which is 15 per cent. of the United Kingdom quota in the eastern waters. We successfully resisted the Commission's proposal for national allocations for the western horse mackerel stock.
  We succeeded in securing the Hague preference as on the basis of last year. This year it will apply to North sea haddock, and west of Scotland saithe and whiting. If the Commission does not achieve a modest increase in the total allowable catch in consultation with Norway, we shall also have a Hague preference for North sea cod. Following the negotiations at the Council of the 49 TACs of interest to the UK, 14 will increase compared with 1991, 18 will decrease and 17 will remain the same.
  In the North sea, taking into account the Hague preference, the demersal opportunities will be very much the same as in 1991, with a small increase in haddock, a drop in saithe and a marginal reduction in cod. Flatfish opportunities will be reduced, reflecting chiefly the passing
  588
  of the very abundant 1987 sole year class. A new TAC was introduced for North sea nephrops, but was not allocated between member states.
  In the west of Scotland, two quotas increase, six are reduced and six stay the same. In the Irish sea, with minor changes in the whiting TAC consistent with the science and with quota exchanges with other member states, higher quantities of cod and whiting will be available to our fleet in 1992. The increase in the nephrops TAC will also be very welcome. In the channel, we achieved better TACs for cod and whiting and for some flatfish than were proposed, as well as the usual quota exchanges with the Netherlands. Overall, we have achieved some welcome changes for every part of the many and varied fisheries around our coasts. No transfers or swaps were concluded with Denmark.
  The fishing industry will, I hope, recognise that we have secured a good package on its behalf. Processors will welcome the relaxations on autonomous tariff quotas and tariff suspensions on certain fish imports which are vital to their businesses. Consumers should also benefit from the greater availability with reduced import restrictions.
  We have worked hard to secure a good package. We have achieved this. Early in 1992 we shall enter further consultations with our industry on special measures we could take to improve the conservation of the fish stocks of importance to us.
  Mr. Elliot Morley: It is fair to say that we welcome many aspects of the arrangement that the Minister obtained in Brussels, in particular the flexibility of days in port and the reduction from 200 days to 135 days. We also welcome the gear option which is to be negotiated, although it is a shame that, as last year, that option was not resolved at the same time at the Council of Ministers, so that fishermen would know where they stood and what was available to them. We also very much welcome the fact that Denmark did not get the 400 tonnes of cod from the United Kingdom allocation which it received last year.
  The main problem is that, although this deal is, I think, by far the best that could be obtained in the present circumstances, I do not see how it will meet the target of a 30 per cent. effort reduction on fish stocks in United Kingdom waters. In that respect, although it meets the requirements of this year, it is a sticking-plaster deal which does not provide a long-term framework for stability. When will the Minister make an application for aid to the relevant budgets in the Community for decommissioning grants to restructure the fleets and give some long-term stability?
  Will the Minister also apply for aid from the social fund to assist the communities that will be affected? On that point, will he press his hon. Friends to try to resolve the dispute between the Government and the Commission about the application of those funds? Will he also take note of Mr. Marin's comments about fisheries enforcements and the fact that it is up to individual states to ensure that the rules are kept? Will the Minister consider enforcement in this country and the fact that there has been fairly widespread breaking of the rules? In that conection, will he consider a pilot scheme for the satellite tracking of fishing fleets?
  It is a sad fact that cheating has occurred in this country, as it has in all member states. Some fishermen say that they cheat because they have no choice—that they are

  589
  driven to it by economic circumstances and by the level of fish stocks and the pressures on them. The fact that fishermen are driven to do that does not excuse it, but it underlines the Government's failure so far to match effort to available fish stocks and to ensure a long-term future for the industry. When will the Government deal with that problem and introduce the long-term planning and policies needed to ensure that this country has a sustainable industry?
  Mr. Curry: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's congratulations on the package. The reduction to 135 days is welcome, and the gear option will be obtainable on the same basis as last year, in that the regulation is the same. We must be fair and say that, with a 135-day tie-up taken across the year and taken in fairly flexibly—we must work out the detailed arrangements—the requirement of the gear option is likely to be somewhat less than it was in the current year. I was also pleased that we did not conclude what I called a "Christmas bonus" for Denmark with a small allocation of cod—I thought that this year we would keep it for ourselves.
  The conservation element of the package has to be seen in the light of a series of measures. The package contains the reduction in the TACs, which is in itself an element of conservation. The package of the eight-day tie-up was more onerous. The problem is that if we ask fishermen to do something that they do not consider reasonable—even using that word somewhat flexibly—we shall not get conservation at the end of the day. They are driven to the point at which anti-conservation results.
  Therefore, although some people may say that the package is liberal, it is better to ask fishermen to observe the rules thoroughly on something that is reasonable. My appeal to the industry is that many of the arguments at present are about illegal landings. The hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) has raised that issue several times.
  There is much talk in the fishing press about that subject and about cheating. Nobody could argue that this package drives fishermen to cheat; it has introduced the very elements of flexibility for which the fishermen asked. If fishermen cheat, misreport and take deliberate decisions not to obey the rules, the inevitable result will be that, in future years, scientists will advise us to have a more restrictive package. We would then be back to the position of tying up the industry in red tape, which is not the way to progress.
  Inevitably, the hon. Member for Glandford and Scunthorpe mentioned decommissioning, as he finds the package fairly congenial. He knows that we are having discussions with the industry on an overall package of conservation measures, of which decommissioning could form an element. The package is sensible and sets our relations with the industry on a stable and sensible base. Given our recent success in obtaining the safeguards against Norwegian salmon and the rapidity with which we dealt with the outbreak of paralytic shellfish poisoning that threatened shellfish exports from Scotland, I think that the industry can regard the Fisheries Department as having worked extremely well on their behalf.
  Several Hon. Members rose ——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The House knows that today is a private Members' day. I shall allow questions on the statement to continue until 11.30 am and hope that, in that time, all hon. Members present may be called to speak.
  Mr. James Wallace: There are a number of aspects of the package that are welcome, and the Minister should be congratulated on his achievements, particularly the fact that he has managed to obtain the full quantity of mackerel allowed in the agreement between the Community and Norway. I know that that will be especially welcomed by the pelagic fishermen in my constituency. While none of us thought that the package would result in something as bad as a 200-day period, we were realistic enough to know that the period would never be totally eliminated. There has been a significant reduction in the number of tie-up days and, as the Minister said, the flexibility allowed will be helpful.
  How many vessels of nations other than the United Kingdom will be affected by the tie-up rules? Did I understand the Minister to say that the new proposals on the gear option are to be the same as this year's? Will he reassure those who are sceptical about the gear option that it will not prove to be a loophole but will be properly enforced? Will he comment on the disappointment felt about the west coast TACs?
  Finally, like the hon. Memberr for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley), I must mention decommissioning. As we go from year to year, anxiety is felt within the fishing industry every December about the threat and reality of tie-ups, and such worries will continue until we have a decommissioning scheme. The industry has responded reasonably warmly to what the Minister has achieved, and relations between the industry and the Government are perhaps better now than they have been for a long time. Will the Government take this opportunity to talk constructively to the industry about a well-targeted and well-resourced decommissioning scheme?
  Mr. Curry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. He has always been fair in his observations on the fishing industry. It is true that the package is a good deal for his fishermen and those based in the islands, particularly western land mackerel flexibility. Whichever boat is caught, the criterion remains the same: 100 tonnes and 40 per cent. over the same reference period. It is up to the member states to apply to the Commission for derogation, which the Commission will deal with under a series of criteria, one of which is the extent to which the fishermen might expect to take their quota. Certainly, we expect Danes to be caught under these rules in the Skaggerak and Kattegat unless they can prove to the contrary.
  The words on which the gear option is hung—if I may use that phrase—are the same as last year. That does not mean that the gear option as such would necessarily be the same as last year. We must ask questions of and make representations to the Commission. I outlined to the Commissioner in a statement in the Council the sort of options that we might want. I asked him to say whether he agreed on the sort of ball park area, and he said yes, so we shall get those gear options. However, many boats that have taken up the gear option this year will not find the same necessity to do so next year.
  It was an extremely useful exercise, as people fishing with 110 mm nets gained practical experience and found

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  that the nets had greater conservation benefits than they thought and the quantity of catchable fish was greater than they had thought. I hope that some boat crews will ask for a gear option of 120 mm. I know that some Shetland fishermen would seriously contemplate that as a feasible option.
  As for the Government's relations with the industry, they are co-operating closely with it, having conducted a series of meetings and are currently discussing a conservation package. We all know what elements that package will contain, and I shall meet representatives of the industry early in the new year to see how we can advance the package.
  Mr. Robert Hughes: May I join other hon. Members in welcoming the more flexible package that the Minister has achieved and which the industry can live with? Does the Minister recall that, apart from one year and small marginal changes this year, TACs have been reduced every year since they were introduced? Is he aware of the pressures on stocks? The problems relate not just to minimum size; the quality of fish now caught is much poorer than it was some years ago.
  What long-term studies are the Government undertaking to find out why the stocks are under such pressure and whether the problem is due simply to overfishing or whether there is some serious form of pollution in the breeding grounds that is gravely affecting the stocks? We must have a longer-term plan and study the problem, or we shall merely stagger from crisis to crisis, year after year.
  Mr. Curry: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point about the quality of fish. One reason why we were anxious to obtain a cut-off date of 1 August for western horse mackerel stock was that the fish caught are of a much higher quality in the latter part of the year. The fishing is carried out for human consumption, using freezer trawlers, and the catch often goes straight to Japan. The Commission is producing a report on the industrial fishery.
  One achievement contained in the package was to reduce significantly the industrial by-catch in cod and haddock fisheries. The Commission is committed to bringing forward a report on the effect of the industrial fishery. The House will know that none of us likes industrial fisheries, and we believe that fish should be used for human consumption. The package should go some way to ensuring that.
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing: I join the welcome for the flexibility of the package. As one who represents a constituency in which 25 per cent. of jobs depend on the fisheries industry, I can say that not a single tear will be shed for the ending of the infamous eight-day consecutive tie-up rule, which was always potentially life-threatening.
  As for the retention of the 40 per cent. option on the TACs for cod and haddock, does the Minister recognise that the people who suffered most last year under the eight-day tie-up rule have again been targeted? Why was not total flexibility implemented, so that effort limitation could have been spread evenly across the Community and throughout the United Kingdom? How will the Minister nominate the 135-day rule, and how will it be policed? Will any——
  Mr. Speaker: Briefly, please.
  Mrs. Ewing: Will any consideration be given to compensation for the 135-day tie up?
  Mr. Curry: We shall write to the industry shortly asking how it would like the 135-day rule to operate—whether it would like it in quarterly chunks and what notification procedure should be used. We were willing to see an amendment in the 100 tonnes and 40 per cent. rule to widen its scope, but our proposal was not backed by a majority, so we were not successful.
  Mr. Calum Macdonald: I also congratulate the Minister on the successes in the package. Will he ask his colleagues in the Scottish Office to consider the implications of the package for the west coast nephrops fleet? I still believe that a weekend ban on nephrops fishing on the west coast would be effective and desirable.
  Will the Minister respond to the question by my hon. Friend the Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) about social fund money from the Commission for the restructuring of the fleet and the possibility of funding along the lines now available for the coal and steel industries and, potentially, for the textile industry?
  Mr. Curry: We have a consultation on the nephrops fishery, and a weekend ban is one of the items on which we are asking the industry to give its views. I will raise funding matters with my right hon. and hon. Friends.
  Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Will the Minister confirm that all he hears from west Cumbrian fishermen is that they want a decommisioning scheme and fair treatment under the Hague preference? Will he confirm that they will still be penalised under the Hague preference as a result of the package that he has negotiated? Can the Minister tell me why we can decommission land to stop the production of agricultural products but we cannot decommission boats to prevent fishermen from fishing? Why is there inconsistency in the Government's view of these matters?
  Mr. Curry: I assume that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the effects of the Hague preference in the Irish sea. If we get the Hague preference, the Irish do, too; the two go together. We have tried to achieve a proper mean. In the last half-year period, we have operated on the same basis under the Hague preference as we did last year. It is a difficult issue.
  Most of the industry talks about decommissioning, but, as a result of our talks, it is increasingly recognising that effort control and limitation go with decommissioning as part of a package, and that has made it a much more sensible dialogue.
  Mr. Archy Kirkwood: Will the Minister say something about the detail of the increased flexibility in the package, which is welcome? When will we know exactly what is and what is not allowable? Will the Minister now consider the availability of compensation because there is to be an increase in the number of restricted days and therefore a decrease in fishing opportunities? Few other industries in the country have a statutory prescription on their earning capacity. Either the EC must come forward with per diem compensation, or unemployment benefit or family credit should be extended to fishermen who are denied their opportunity to work.
  Mr. Curry: On flexibility, we will consult the industry on how it wants the scheme to work, and that discussion will include such matters as refits, the necessity to come into port, breakdowns and so on. As the rules stand at the moment, a day in port for any reason whatever counts against the 135 days. We shall have to ask the industry how it wants the scheme to work.
  On compensation, I must emphasise to the hon. Gentleman that very few boats in practice fish for more than 230 days a year. Those that need to do so may well be able to benefit from the gear option. I do not see any scope for compensation.
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: My first reaction was to think, "Thank God the eight day tie-up rule is to be thrown overboard." When the Minister was in Brussels, did he consult the report that is being prepared by Community officials on the current circumstances of the industry? I believe that that report is part of the gradual process leading up to the mid-term review.
  Two important issues arise: the first is industrial fishing and the second is the concept of relative stability by which fixed percentages of traditional fishing opportunities are maintained. May I urge on the hon. Gentleman the need to reject the Spanish demands about an incursion into that relative stability? It must be adhered to and surely there must be a complete ban on industrial fishing.
  Mr. Curry: The Commission is to produce a report on industrial fishing by the middle of next year and I hope that, following that, we can begin the process of eliminating it. The report on the mid-term review was not brought forward to the Council meeting, but the hon. Gentleman can be assured that, when it is, I shall argue that we believe that the principle of relative stability is an important part of the policy and should remain.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: May I congratulate the Government on their speedy and effective action over the so-called shellfish ban? Will the Minister undertake to examine very soon the consequences of the package on the village-based fishing industry? In particular—as the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is here—will the Minister encourage his Scottish Office colleagues to take an early and favourable decision in respect of the proposal for improved fish handling facilities and safety at Pittenweem harbour in my constituency?
  Mr. Curry: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his remarks about the shellfish ban. The Ministry and the Scottish Office acted very quickly and that great threat to the industry has now been eliminated. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has heard what the hon. and learned Gentleman said about his constituency.
  Mr. Frank Doran: May I say a word about the fish processing industry? The industry generally welcomes the flexibility that the new tie-up arrangements have brought, which should lead to some stability and continuity of supply. Some concerns remain, however. The first is the amount of industrial fishing; some 4 per cent. of the haddock quota is to be applied for industrial purposes—mainly fishmeal production. Given the pressure on stocks, I appreciate the Minister's comments on that.
  Another cause for concern is the suspension of the import tariff, which appears to institutionalise or formalize
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  imports as the main source of supply for the fish processing industry. About 75 to 80 per cent. of fish processed in some of the larger factories is imported, but small businesses account for a large proportion of the industry and two or three-person businesses cannot afford imported fish and the facilities required to handle it. What proposals does the Minister have in respect of those small firms?
  Mr. Curry: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that a by-catch for the industrial fishery—other than an absolutely genuine by-catch—is unacceptable. I do not believe that there should be an industrial fishery if we can possibly avoid it. That is why we argued that people pursuing the directed whiting fishery should not be able to count that as a derogation against their days. We were successful in that and the directed whiting fishery does not constitute a reason to be excused days of the tie-up. We do not like that fishery; we do not believe that it actually exists.
  I said that I was willing to accept some liberalisation of tariffs because of the processing industry. There was some tariff liberalisation and the hon. Gentleman will know that, from 1 January 1993, the EFTA agreement will come into force and there will be a further significant liberalisation, which should help the processing industry. That will not, of course, include the main pelagic species, which are particularly sensitive to our industry, especially in Scotland.
  Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North): All this good will and congratulation is becoming very depressing, so may I open on a sour note and express the disappointment felt by the Scottish Fishermen's Federation at the cuts in white fish quotas on the west coast? Why was that issue not more successfully prosecuted? Having said that, I join in the cautious support for the view that the greater flexibility of the 135-day ban represents an improvement on the current rigidities of the eight-day tie-up rule.
  Now that this measure and the TACs for next year are agreed upon, will the Minister address the question of where we stand on the social measures that are supposed to accompany the conservation policies? I do not know how often the hon. Gentleman tunes into Scottish radio, but in the past week, Lord Strathclyde has offered several winks and nods to suggest that a decommissioning scheme is now a genuine prospect. Is there any substance in those suggestions, because that is the big question still to be answered in Scottish fishing communities before the general election?
  Where do the Government stand on compensation for fishermen who are edged out of their livelihoods as a result of the agreement? Surely there must be a social dimension.
  Finally, will the Minister take steps to differentiate between fact and fiction on the issues of illegal landings and "black fish"? There is no point in the House asking the Minister questions about what has been presented as a conservation agreement if that agreement is being breached on the scale suggested by some reports. We must have the facts and then, if justified, action commensurate with them.
  Mr. Curry: I am grateful. The Scottish Fishermen's Federation described the deal as
  "better news than we expected".
  Coming from the SFF, that is positively euphoric.

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  The National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations was somewhat more enthusiastic. Mr. Charlie Dawson said:
  "This is fantastic news. It sounds like a good deal and is exactly what we asked for. There could be dancing in the streets of the North-east."
  I do not wish to refer to "The Cloggies", but if there is dancing in the streets, I hope that I may be invited to participate. I look forward to Scottish reserve breaking occasionally into similar forms of enthusiasm.
  Our relations with the industry are extremely good, both north and south of the border, and we hope to pursue those good relations constructively for the benefit of the industry.
  The hon. Gentleman asked about the west coast and the Irish sea. In the Irish sea, our swaps with the Dutch and the Irish largely offset the Hague preference and that is a bonus. The Irish sea is in a bad state in conservation terms. My officials have made contact with the Irish Government, and I am in contact with the Irish Minister, with a view to examining some sort of joint approach to the Irish sea and deciding how we can tackle the genuine crisis in stocks.
  I have replied to questions on the social measures. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concerns. As for illegal landings and so on, we shall have the maximum enforcement effort. That is an enormously expensive effort and, as I have explained before in the House, we cannot man every boat at every port 24 hours a day. It would not be feasible to try to do that. We do better than any other member state.
  It is important, on the basis of the agreement, for the industry to realise that it is its job to make sure that fisherman does not steal from fisherman, which is what a lot of the issue is about. Otherwise, the stocks and the fishermen lose at the end of the day, and we would end up with a return to the sort of dirigiste measures which nobody likes, which are not effective, which are not in the interest of the fishermen and which ultimately also defeat conservation.

  University Hospital of Wales
  Question again proposed, That this House do now adjourn.
  Mr. Speaker: I should say to the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones), that his debate will go on until noon, and the Chair will then call the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen), whose debate will continue until 12.30 pm.
  11.32 am
  Mr. Gwilym Jones: I am glad of this opportunity to discuss the matter of the medicentre at the University hospital of Wales. I have referred to the issue three times in speeches in the Chamber. I also raised it in the Welsh Grant Committee last week. I make no apology for raising it again, and I shall continue to raise it for as long as necessary.
  My objective in securing the debate is to persuade the Secretary of State to call in the application for the medicentre. I understand that the Secretary of State's powers to call in a planning application are contained in section 77(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. That provision appears to be so widely drawn that the Secretary of State can call in any planning application. Clearly, it would not be practicable for him to be able to do that, so there must be criteria.
  The 1986 White Paper on the subject gave the best definition of the criteria to be used by the Secretary of State for calling in a planning application. The White Paper was published as a response by the Government to a report by the Select Committee on the Environment which pressed the Government to use their call-in powers more frequently. I fancy that the Committee must have been enduring the same sort of frustrations that I feel in relation to the medicentre at the University hospital of Wales. The 1986 White Paper said that decisions on calling in should be taken in the light of the circumstances of each case; that the Secretary of State must not fetter his discretion by the rigid application of any particular policy; that it should involve matters of more than local importance; and that it should apply where the local authority should not to be entrusted with the decision. It went on to refer to departure applications where the development was a departure from the structure plan.
  On all grounds, there is an overwhelming case for the Secretary of State to call in this application. However, before outlining that case, I must impart an understanding of what else is going on at the University hospital of Wales. I shall comment on the relevant powers involved and how they are being used by South Glamorgan council, for the way in which it is being done is as important as anything else.
  In a parallel case, Mr. Roger Knight, city planning officer for Cardiff city council, was so moved as to describe what South Glamorgan council is doing as being
  "an abuse of the planning system."
  He said that in the context of Corpus Christi school, and there are other examples occurring now in Cardiff. Apart from Corpus Christi school at Cyncoid, there is the Gardenhurst day centre at Penarth and the centre at Sully in the Vale of Glamorgan. They are not uncontroversial matters. The reverse is the case.
  The Gardenhurst day centre is being taken forward despite considerable local objection in Penarth, not least

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  because it is intended to place the day centre in the wrong place for the elderly who are expected to use it. The centre at Sully has members of the Vale of Glamorgan borough council up in arms, saying that what South Glamorgan council is doing is wrong, that it is not the planning authority and that it should not be acting as such. Corpus Christi school in Cyncoid, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Grist), is another contentious matter. As well as parents being opposed to it, my hon. Friend has lodged objections with South Glamorgan council and Cardiff city council.
  I am anxious that the Minister should be aware of the climate of opinion in Cardiff over those issues. The medicentre is not an isolated example. It is certainly not an example of the harmonious use of processes better to achieve a development that everybody wants. It is more another case of something being rammed through despite local objections.
  As I said, it is also necessary to understand what else is going on at the University hospital of Wales. It is a large, fine teaching hospital with excellent staff who make a great contribution and who are constantly increasing and improving the health service in Wales. They are a great asset to my constituency, as they would be anywhere, but, much as they are of benefit to all my constituents, I fear that the hospital is the cause of significant problems for its immediate neighbours, numbering perhaps 10,000 people.
  Our problems are mainly traffic, parking and pollution. The hospital was sited on the heath about 20 years ago and no special provision was made for traffic to and from it. There has been the inevitable increase in traffic over the years, but that has been exacerbated by the expansion in the health service at the hospital.
  In line with traffic, parking has steadily increased, so much so that it has overspilled out of the hospital confines. It now affects many roads around the area. Local residents have not been able to park outside their homes and have often not been able to get into their driveways. It has become necessary again to impose a parking control zone on roads around the hospital, a development which was long fought for by Councillor Tony John, whom I congratulate on his efforts.
  Possibly the greatest problem that local residents have had to endure has been that of pollution. That is the most emotive issue, concerning what has been emitted from the stack of the incinerator at the University hospital of Wales under a blanket of secrecy and Crown immunity. Complaints have been legion, involving deposits that local residents have found in their homes, on window sills, on cars and generally in the environment around the hospital.
  We hoped that the situation would improve this year as the result of the provision of a new incinerator at the hospital, but, instead, the local community has been horrified to learn of a plan to incinerate not just the refuse from the University hospital of Wales but the refuse from practically every other hospital in South Glamorgan. After the community's experience of emissions from the hospital, there has been the greatest protest about that proposal. Letters have been written and petitions signed by virtually every neighbour living near the hospital.
  The objections to the proposal have been led by local councillors, and I am pleased to report that Cardiff city council has refused planning permission for the
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  development. I note that in considering the incinerator proposal, South Glamorgan council argued that it would have involved 20 round trips a day on weekdays and six round trips on weekend days. That obliged that council to tell Cardiff city council that the county council objected to the planning application on highway grounds and that the proposal would result in an unacceptable increase in the use of the surrounding road network.
  If those problems were not enough, we have a newer problem—the noise of fans at a new boiler house. That is giving rise to renewed complaints from the local community.
  As a response, the elected representatives, including myself, have been pressing for more parking and a new access for the hospital from Eastern avenue. I was heartened in October when I led a delegation to see representatives of the health authority. We came away with the commitment that there would be new parking at the University hospital of Wales and a new Eastern avenue access, but we were told that that could not happen for a least two years, at the earliest.
  In an attempt to achieve a better understanding between the health authority and its neighbours—by then the health authority was admitting that it had not been a good neighbour to those living around the hospital—I urged a process of consultation. That was accepted by the health authority. A meeting was held last month and was attended by 300 local residents. We feel that consultation should be a two-way process. On that occasion, it was not a meeting of minds. Instead, it was more like trains passing on opposite tracks. That was not consultation and it has done nothing to improve the reputation of the health authorities among the local community. It is now the general view that those new proposals should wait for at least two years until the promised improvements are in place.
  The medicentre application is for a two-storey building measuring 36,000 sq ft, 27,000 sq ft of which would be lettable. It will be 40 ft high and situated near residential properties in King George V drive East and one of the nurses' homes. It will occupy one of the last few open spaces within the site of the University hospital of Wales. It is intended that it will employ about 100 people connected with medical research, but no commitment guarantees that any, let alone all, of those 100 people will be involved with medical research. The project is clearly commercial. The national health service should certainly not be expected to pay or to subsidise the development and, if enough tenants involved in medical matters cannot be found, I can only anticipate that any commercial tenant prepared to pay the rent will be accepted.
  Some 89 car parking spaces are to be provided, but there are already doubts about whether those will be adequate for the number of people using the medicentre. The planning application admitted that there was no intention to provide car parking spaces for the customers of the medicentre or for anyone else visiting it. Most incomprehensible is the idea that the traffic generated by the medicentre would be acceptable, because much more traffic will be generated by the centre than the incinerator. When Cardiff city council's planning committee considered the mater, it cited South Glamorgan council's opinion on the earlier matter of the incinerator as a ground for refusing the medicentre. For South Glamorgan council to argue otherwise is inconsistent or, some might suggest, hypocritical.

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  It is little wonder that when the city council came to a conclusion on the medicentre, it made a strongly worded condemnation that
  "South Glamorgan Health Authority be advised that … Cardiff City Council … is strongly opposed to the principle of developing one of the few remaining open areas within the University Hospital of Wales … until such time as an alternative … access/egress via Eastern Avenue … together with comprehensive car parking arrangements has been produced."
  Furthermore, it asks that the director of administrative and legal services write to South Glamorgan council on the use of procedures under regulation 4 of the Town and County Planning General Regulations 1976. That request is most important.
  There is a certain familiarity about what the city council's planning committee recorded on the medicentre. It is almost exactly word for word what South Glamorgan's committee had said about its concern about the few remaining open areas within the hospital. At the environment (highways) sub-committee of the county council on 24 October 1990, it was recommended that
  "a letter be sent to the Chairman of the Health Authority drawing attention to the problems created by the hospital, recommending that parking provision therein should be significantly increased, if necessary by using the area currently under consideration for a Medi-park development".
  So important did the county council regard the medicentre that it was suggested that the area should be used for car parking. Again, there is an element of inconsistency or hypocrisy in that.
  It has been suggested that the matter is urgent, but it is not new. The application has been hanging around for well over a year. The first application was made to Cardiff city council on 13 August 1990, but only two things have changed since then. There are now to be a few more car parking spaces and the name on the application has changed. It was originally made by South Glamorgan health authority whereas now it is being made by South Glamorgan county council.
  The matter is regarded in Cardiff as a sham, a con and a disgraceful device. It is just a way of getting round the previous intention of Cardiff city council to object strongly to the proposal. People within both councils are expressing their misgivings, but, inevitably, those within South Glamorgan council cannot speak out. A legally qualified council officer has given a serious private warning in a personal note to one of the councillors. He said that what is meant by "carrying out the development" is not clear, but that he doubts whether merely handing out the RDF grant would constitute carrying out the development. He suggests that the county solicitor should confirm that the county council has no interest in the land and that South Glamorgan council does not intend to carry out the building work in a contrived way. He concludes that if South Glamorgan or any other health authority carries out the development purporting to rely on that deemed South Glamorgan planning permission, there will be no permission for the development, and the city council, as the local planning authority, could take enforcement action.
  Those important questions have been pursued by Councillor Tony John, who raised them at the South Glamorgan council meeting on 12 December and asked what South Glamorgan council meant by "carrying out the development". He asked whether it was merely passing over the subsidy, but he has received no answers on those important questions.
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  I am glad that after much lobbying, I was able to persuade my hon. Friend the Minister at least to consider calling in the planning application. In the meanwhile, I thank him for issuing a direction to South Glamorgan council not to determine that application. The planning application was not considered at the planning and public transport sub-committtee on 11 December. Instead, at the South Glamorgan council meeting on 12 December, plenary powers were granted and the resolution was:
  "The County Council intends to see this development take place and authorises and instructs the Chief Executive, in consultation with the Chairman of the Economic Development and Strategic Planning Services Committee, to so determine the planning application to give effect to this intention, should the Secretary of State decide not to determine the planning application himself."
  That gives power to the very person who made the application. It originally came from the chairman of the economic development committee and he will now determine it. Would that any commercial developer were in that position of being both applicant and he who decides the planning permission.
  Meanwhile, substantial objections have been expressed by me, the city council, local councillors in South Glamorgan council, Councillor Tony John and, as would have been reported to the sub-committee on 11 December, from residents of 219, 216, 8 and 2 King George V drive, 8 and 9 St. Anthony road, 30 and 75 Rhydelig avenue, 33 St. Benedict crescent, 20 St. Agatha road and 20 St. Angela road. None of those objections has been considered and there has been no pretence of considering any of them.
  That fact has been confirmed. The county planning officer, Mr. Peter Cope, wrote to me on 17 December and told me that that application was not considered at the planning and public transport sub-committee on 11 December but that the resolution that I have quoted was passed. That was a most improper way to deal with such an important matter. The only consideration that appears to have been given was behind closed doors. The Labour group that controls South Glamorgan council has taken a political decision to force the development through in contradiction to the way planning is normally dealt with in Cardiff. Cardiff city council, which determines 99 per cent. of planning applications in Cardiff, maintains that not one of the political parties will ever put a party Whip on a planning application. It is a point of principle among the recognised planning authorities that no political decisions will be taken, but that is not the case for the Labour group of South Glamorgan council, which has total contempt for the objections. There is no chance for those objections to be considered. If my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State does not call in the application, the council has already granted plenary powers to allow it to go through. It will be a disgrace if the views of all local residents and elected representatives are ignored.
  The grounds for calling in the application are that it should include matters of more than local importance; it could be a departure application; and the local council should not be entrusted. It is patently obvious that it must be called in, because only in that way will the objections be heard. Clause 77(5) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 authorises an opportunity for a public inquiry to which I recommend my right hon. Friend to submit the matter. The local council should not be entrusted because, by its behaviour, South Glamorgan council has forfeited its right to be entrusted with the matter. Clause 77(2B)

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  allows for calling in a "class" of applications. My right hon. Friend could make that "class" all the applications that South Glamorgan council is considering.
  It is a departure application because in the development plan, the area is designated as the hospital's use of open space. By no stretch of the imagination is the proposed development a hospital; it is a commercial development. I understand from the consultation paper which has been published that not only substantial departures from the development plan but all departures are supposed to be referred.
  Above all, it must be a matter of more than local importance when it is clear that there is a process of abuse of powers as cited by the city planning officer. It is part of the climate and this is far from being the only example. It is a gross abuse that decisions are being taken politically behind closed doors. It is a grave abuse in that legal opinion suggests that the decision is a fiction that can be resolved only by the enforcement action of the planning authority. It must be a great abuse that there is not even a token consideration of objections.
  All in all, there is the strongest case. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister cannot respond today to my plea for the application to be called in, but I ask him to allow appropriate time to reflect maturely on all that is involved. I know that the three ward councillors, Clive Milsom, Peter Donnelly and Granville Tatham, will probably want to make representations to my hon. Friend, as will Councillor Tony John, who represents the area on South Glamorgan council. Councillor Bernard Rees, the leader of the Conservative group on South Glamorgan council has wanted to come to the Welsh Office to meet my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State about the matter. There is the greatest disquiet that unless my right hon. Friend calls in the planning application, the abuse of the planning process will continue.
  11.50 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Nicholas Bennett): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones) on securing the debate, which is much prized. It is an example of his assiduous, hard-working and caring role as a constituency Member that he has raised this matter which he feels is of great importance to his constituents.
  My hon. Friend has raised a number of points in relation to the town and country planning process. It will be helpful to set them in the context of the legislative framework which we have applied for many years. I know that my hon. Friend will understand that I can make no comments about the merits of the proposal which is the subject of our debate or about the case for calling it in for determination by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. That would prejudice his consideration of the current application for a call-in and might also prejudice his consideration of the matter if it is called in. As a consequence, I will confine myself to the facts as I understand them. However, my hon. Friend can be assured that I have listened attentively to what he has said and his points will be considered carefully before a decision is made on whether the application should be called in.
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  Parliament has made local planning authorities responsible for day-to-day planning control, including the determination of planning applications and the initiating of enforcement action. For most categories of development, the local planning authorities are the district councils, but county councils also have limited functions as planning authorities.
  Whatever reservations there may be about individual decisions from time to time, the basic premise that most planning decisions should be taken locally has never been seriously challenged. Local authorities are generally best placed to exercise the discretion that Parliament has judged appropriate in taking planning decisions. Development plans drawn up with public consultation provide an important framework. Central Government publish general advice on a wide range of planning issues through planning policy guidance notes and circulars. However, we believe that unless there are exceptional circumstances, it is for people with local knowledge to look at individual proposals and to decide them in the way that best meets local requirements.
  My hon. Friend does not, I think, dissent from that, but he has questioned local planning authorities' deciding planning proposals that they themselves have originated and in particular the position of the county council in relation to the district council. Again, that is not a haphazard system, but one which our legislation has recognised for many years under successive Governments. If elected local authorities are fit to draw up development plans and to judge the vast majority of planning applications, it would be odd to say that they were not fit to judge their own development proposals. It is, of course, right to require them to adopt certain procedures to ensure that the public and the full range of interests represented by the authority have the opportunity to contribute to the consideration. The regulations provide for this in certain circumstances and we are considering how to improve the detail of the procedures. As I have already said, day-to-day planning control is for local planning authorities and it is not the role of the Secretary of State to become involved in that as a general rule.
  However, there are two circumstances in which Parliament has seen a role for the Secretary of State. The first is in relation to the need for an applicant who is aggrieved by the decision of the local planning authority on his application to have a right of appeal. In practice, the great majority of appeals are now decided by inspectors appointed by the Secretary of State for that purpose.
  Again, I think that the great majority of hon. Members would not dispute the need for a right of appeal. Nevertheless, there are people who argue that local planning authorities' decisions best reflect local circumstances and should not be overruled by the central Government or their appointed planning inspectors. That is a point of view which I understand, but which I should not commend against a background in which Parliament, when removing the unfettered right of a land owner to develop his land as he wished, thought it right to enable a land owner to get a second opinion if the local decision on his application was adverse.
  Others argue that if developers have the right of appeal to the Secretary of State against a local planning authority's decision, so should other interested parties. That argument minimises the fact that it is the local planning authority's role to represent the general public interest. The more practical implication is that if such a

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  wide-varying right of appeal existed, the likelihood is that the whole planning system would become totally bogged down.
  The second circumstance is that planning legislation has given the Secretary of State the power to take applications out of the hands of local planning authorities and to decide them himself. It is quite clear against the background that I have described that it was intended that it should be an exceptional power and that it should be used only when there are no other ways in which the individual applicant may consider the case himself through the planning process. There is always a danger that if the regulations are overused by the Secretary of State, he will find that his business and duties in planning will become bogged down.
  Regulations provide that if local planning authorities are minded to approve a proposal, but judge that it involves a material departure from the provisions of the development plan, they are required to refer the matter to the Secretary of State for him to decide whether he thinks it fit to call in the matter for his own decision.
  It is possible for the Secretary of State to direct that a certain category of development should be referred to him if local planning authorities are minded to grant permission. Such a direction has been issued, for example, in respect of a large-scale retail shopping development. The Town and Country Planning (Shopping Development) (England and Wales) Direction 1986 applies when proposals include areas of gross shopping floor space of not less than 250,000 sq ft or 23,325 sq m. The Secretary of State may receive representations in the light of which he may decide to require a particular application to be referred to him for decision.
  Successive Governments have adopted the policy that individual decisions should be taken out of the hands of local planning authorities only if they raise issues of more than local importance. It follows that decisions to call in will not be frequent. It also follows that in looking at whether to call in, Ministers do not consider the planning merits of the proposal, but only whether the kind of issues that need to be decided are more appropriate for consideration in a wider than local context by the
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  Secretary of State. I should make it clear that when it is decided to intervene in a local authority's own proposed development, the local authority is required to apply to the Secretary of State for planning permission. The kind of questions that might be asked in the context are whether the proposal could have wide effects beyond the immediate locality, whether it could give rise to regional or national controversy and whether it could conflict with national policy.
  I turn, briefly, to the case of the medicentre proposal at the Heath hospital, Cardiff about which my hon. Friend is concerned. The proposal is being processed by South Glamorgan county council under regulation 4 of the Town and Country Planning General Regulations 1976. The project consists of a high specification, purpose-built research centre on land within the site of the University hospital of Wales.
  My hon. Friend made certain representations about the proposal to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in the course of a discussion last month. Following further approaches from my hon. Friend, a direction was issued to South Glamorgan county council on 11 December requiring it not to approve the proposal until the Secretary of State had had more time to consider whether to call in the matter for his own determination.
  I emphasise that in taking that step, we have not formed any view on the planning merits of the proposal. What now needs to be established, in accordance with our usual policy, is whether the proposal raises issues of more than local importance or whether the matters in question justify a departure from the policy that matters of local importance should be dealt with by local authorities.
  I assure my hon. Friend that we look forward to receiving any further written representations that he has in addition to the cogent case that he has put before the House today. Such representations will be considered as quickly as possible in deciding whether we should call in the application. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising an important constituency point. I look forward to receiving further representations, if he has any, in addition to his important arguments today.

  Knives
  11.59 am
  Mr. Harry Cohen: I am pleased to have obtained this debate on the important and serious matter of the increasing use of knives in crimes of violence. Christmas is a time of celebration and joyfulness, but there is no doubt that during this time someone, probably more than one, will become over-exuberant, a knife will flash and someone will die. Christmas will be spoilt not just for those involved but for their friends and relatives.
  People should not carry a knife at any time and particularly not at Christmas. We have recently seen the horrendous stabbing in Walthamstow which resulted in the death of Sergeant Alan King, a popular Chingford policeman. Police Constables Simon Castrey and John Jenkinson received terrible knife injuries in a similar incident. The Government have expressed their horror at such attacks on the police, but they also need to act.
  I planned this debate before that terrible murder. On one occasion, I was cycling with my wife at Whipps Cross when I saw two 14-year-olds with their bicycles. One of them got out the ugliest looking knife that I have seen to cut a piece of string or something on his bicycle. It was a matter of horror to me and my wife that such a young lad could carry that knife. I cycled off quickly, but when I discussed the matter subsequently with my wife she said that to carry a knife was not uncommon nowadays. She cited the example of a model boy from an impeccable family down the road, who I hope will have a golden future, who apparently always carries a knife for his own protection. It is horrific that youngsters should think that that is necessary. The Minister is a little older than I, but when I was a rough and tough lad, we would never have dreamt of carrying a knife and nor would he. It is shocking that that ethos should exist now.
  There has been a big increase in the use of knives in crimes of violence. I have asked parliamentary questions about the illegal sale and possession of knives and I was told that 150 people were prosecuted in 1988 for having in a public place such an article with a blade or point and in 1989, it was 2,018—a huge jump. In 1990, a total of 903 knives were seized at ports, airports and other points of entry and in 1991 that figure had risen to 2,082.
  I do not want to say that there has been a huge leap in the past year or so, because that would not true, but there has been a big leap since 1980. For example, in 1980 in the Metropolitan police district there were fewer than 2,000 cases of the use of knives in offences of violence against the person and 1,240 cases where knives were used in robberies. By 1987, those figures had shot up to 2,870 cases of the use of knives in offences against the person and 4,630 cases where they were used in robberies—a huge increase.
  The figure have dropped a little since then, which I welcome. That drop was a consequence of a campaign against the use of knives in mid-1988 and the effects of section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. But with the new ethos to which I have referred of youngsters carrying knives, allegedly for their own protection, there is a real danger that there will be another explosion of such crimes.
  In 1989, it was estimated that sharp instruments were used in one in three aggravated burglaries, one in five robberies, one in 17 offences of violence against the person
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  and one in 100 sexual offences. Knives and sharp instruments are the most common weapons used in homicides and account for one third of all homicides.
  An article in The Independent on Sunday on 19 May clearly substantiates my point about the danger of an explosion in knife violence. The article was headed
  "Death by Stabbing: the new British way of life".
  It said:
  "Knife attacks are on the increase, with more young men carrying blades.,"
  It talks of anecdotal evidence in 1991 that the carrying of knives is on the increase among young people and it quotes Detective Chief Superintendent Roger Stoodley, who works in east London, as saying:
  "I have never known so many people to be carrying these weapons."
  Barrie Irving of the Police Foundation is quoted as saying:
  "There is much evidence that more people are going out with knives. There is a lot of threat and counter-threat in the pubs and clubs. Much of it is display. The knife is produced as the young man slips into a role that has been established in his mind by videos and that sort of thing."
  A serious problem already exists and it is becoming even greater. The Government's response has been inadequate and that is why I initiated the debate. I do not say that in party-political terms, because the Government's objective is the same as mine. They want to see the elimination of the use of knives in crimes of violence, but their approach is that the law is adequate to deal with the problem and that nothing needs to be changed. In a parliamentary written answer I was told:
  "The sale and possession of knives is subject to a number of controls … There will be practical problems in seeking to apply more general restrictions on the sale and purchase of knives which have a variety of legitimate everyday uses."
  The answer refers to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 and the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 and ends by saying:
  "The Government have no plans to introduce further legislation in this matter."—[Official Report, 2 December 1991; Vol. 200, c. 3.]
  When I asked about local amnesties, I was told:
  "It is for chief officers of police to consider whether offering opportunities for disposing of offensive weapons would be a worthwhile crime prevention initiative in their own force area."—[Official Report, 11 December 1991; Vol. 200, c. 436.]
  Again, the Government are saying that the procedures are there and nothing further need be done. I challenge that. I accept that we do not want to become involved with domestic cutlery and important workmen's tools such as Stanley knives, but there is other action that the Government should take.
  In the face of the dreadful attacks on police officers, the Home Office should have put together an urgent review team which should have incorporated other Departments and put forward a package of measures. I hope that the Minister will take that suggestion on board.
  I want to put forward some suggestions for inclusion in such a package of measures. I acknowledge that not all will be appropriate, but some will be. For example, there is a case for a further restriction on the sale of knives and for licensing shops. I know that that is not supported by the Association of Chief Police Officers or by shopkeepers, but there is a case for saying that shops should be licensed.
  In November 1980, my hon. Friend the Member for Dewesbury (Mrs. Taylor) said:
  "It is vital that we ban offensive and useless weapons. I say `useless' because people buy them for only one reason, which

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  is to injure or, at the very least, to threaten other individuals. We feel strongly that weapons of this kind have no place, so we support measures to ban them or prohibit their sale."
  The key point is that if the knives are used for one purpose and do not fall into the category of domestic cutlery there is a case for a ban. There is certainly a case for enforcing the law more strongly to prevent under-age people buying such weapons. In that same debate my hon. Friend said:
  "The proposal that weapon sales be banned completely to people under the age of 16 should stay on the agenda. The Minister is aware that the peak age of offenders is 15 and that it is boys of that age who commit the vast majority of street crimes and crimes involving intimidation or offensive weapons."—[Official Report, Fifth Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. 10 November 1988; c. 4.]
  Butterfly and gravity knives are already banned and there is a case for extending that. I have some information about knives for sale by mail order. I have an advertisement for CIA survival knives which states that it
  "is a superb high tech fibreglass filled nylon construction knife which weighs just 20 gm…due to its double edge, spear point and double fluted reinforced spine, tremendous plunging power—it can literally be driven straight through a telephone directory (remains undetected by airport metal detectors)".
  Another one is advertised as a "sabretooth survival saw" and it again is said to be able to pass unnoticed through metal detectors. The advertisement says:
  "when you need that 'extra edge'.
  An advert for a CIA letter opener says that it can be driven by hammer through ½ in plywood. The OSS sleeve dagger is said to be
  "Specially designed to be concealed on arm or leg, especially during body search."
  The advertisement says that it is supplied only to military personnel, but these are general adverts and I doubt whether that is the case.
  Such weapons should be banned and there should be tighter control on their manufacture and import. The police should be protected by body armour. Research is being carried out on that, but it should be speeded up and it should not be left to police officers to buy such body protection. That should be the job of the Home Office. We should consider the supply of metal detectors and the regular retraining of police officers to enable them to deal with knife problems.
  Police are often delayed through having to seek permission to enter places such as shopping malls, and the law needs to be enforced in pubs and clubs. Penalties should be reviewed. At the moment the punishment is up to six months' imprisonment and/or a £2,000 fine. That is to be increased and perhaps there should be an increase in the sentence for hardened criminals going out with a criminal purpose and carrying a knife. Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 could be strengthened.
  There should be a concerted programme to change the knife-carrying ethos in schools. The Minister should get his oar in with the Minister for Health who is carrying out a review in conjunction with the mental health tribunal. We do not want to see more knife carrying by people who are mentally ill, although that clearly affects a minority of community care cases. Search powers should be reviewed and should be exercised where there are reasonable grounds. Perhaps random spot checks could be carried out in the same way as breathalyser tests.
  Above all, there should be a knife amnesty with knife banks not just outside police stations but elsewhere. Local authorities could be brought into that and such an amnesty would need Home Office funding and improved
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  publicity. There is a case for implementing Labour's policy aim of a crime prevention council and a crime management foundation to undertake independent research. I hope that the Minister will consider that package of measures to stop people carrying knives and to change the ethos. Knives affect all our civil liberties and can even affect the ultimate one. I give way to the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby).
  12.17 pm
  Mr. Michael Shersby rose——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): I take it that the hon. Gentleman also has the consent of the Minister.
  Mr. Shersby: Yes. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) for allowing me to speak in this valuable debate. As the House knows, I am parliamentary adviser to the Police Federation of England and Wales. My right hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine), who represents the Police Superintendents Association, cannot be present at the debate and wishes to be associated with what I have to say.
  As the House knows, a terrible situation faces our country. No fewer than five police officers have lost their lives in the past decade as a result of attacks in which knives have been used. A further 17 officers have lost their lives as a result of being shot, crushed or injured in some other way. In the last couple of weeks we have heard about the tragic death of Sergeant Alan King and Detective Constable Jim Morrison and we have seen the terrible injuries inflicted on their colleagues.
  As the hon. Member for Leyton has said, the common factor in many of these assaults is the knife. I have one or two suggestions to add to those advanced by the hon. Gentleman in an attempt to alleviate the problem. First, the Home Office should mount a national publicity campaign using all available media to warn parents and young people of the dangers of young people carrying knives. It would remind them that young men who carry knives and youngsters who take them to school may lose their temper and find that one stab is enough to kill a school mate or a police officer.
  Such a campaign should be mounted by the Home Office and not left simply to chief constables. Parents should be reminded that they have a responsibility and that they can be fined and required to pay compensation for acts committed by juveniles. The campaign should remind young people of the severe custodial sentences that are available for this type of crime. I should like to see the Home Office introduce what is called the side-handled baton. That is longer than the standard truncheon and would be useful to police officers who patrol alone at night because it affords additional protection against all kinds of assaults, excluding of course, assaults using firearms.
  I hope that the Home Secretary will set up a working party jointly with the Police Federation of England and Wales. It represents 125,000 officers in what is unfortunately only too truly the sharp end of policing. I hope that the Home Office will review the stop and search powers. Those powers were conferred under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and replaced those under the Vagrancy Act 1824. In the opinion of the police, those powers are not adequate. The Act does not give a constable power to search a person or a vehicle or

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  anything in or on a vehicle unless he has reasonable grounds for suspecting that he will find stolen or prohibited articles.
  That restriction was introduced because of the concern expressed about the old Vagrancy Act and the sus laws. The Home Office and the House must strike a balance between preserving the liberty of the citizen and protecting the lives of police men and police women who are the only protection available to ordinary citizens against people who carry knives and who will stab and kill without regard for the misery that they inflict on their fellow citizens.
  12.19 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd): I congratulate the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) on his success in securing this debate and thank him for raising the disturbing and important question of the use of knives in crime. It has been brought to the forefront of our minds in a most horrible way—by the recent series of shocking attacks on police officers in London, which resulted in two officers being killed and two others receiving terrible injuries.
  I am sure that the House joins me, the hon. Member for Leyton and my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby) in expressing deepest sympathy to the families of the officers who so tragically lost their lives in the course of duty. We also offer our best wishes to those who were injured, and trust that they will make a full and speedy recovery. Those incidents are a salutary reminder of the dedication of police officers to protecting the public.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to an apparent increase in the number of offences involving knives, and I will examine the figures that he gave. I know that some were provided in parliamentary answers from the Home Office. Statistics on the misuse of knives are not readily available, because misuse is categorised under other offences, such as assault. In 1989, however, S1 division conducted an ad hoc survey of notifiable offences between 1986 and 1989 in which sharp instruments and knives were used.
  Not all forces responded to that survey, but the results suggested that the percentage of notifiable offences involving the use of sharp instruments and knives fell during the period surveyed. The hon. Member for Leyton makes the point well that we could benefit from better statistics.
  Details of the types of knives used in crimes are not generally available either, but ordinary kitchen and craft knives are believed to be the most commonly used in attacks, rather than the kind that the hon. Gentleman mentioned as being advertised. The hon. Gentleman wants additional controls on knife sales. Following the recent series of knife attacks on police officers, there were calls from the Police Federation for further restrictions on the sale of knives. While I appreciate public concern about misuse, I do not see how additional controls on sales could offer an easy or practical solution. I do not believe that licensing shops, for example, would help in practice. However, I shall reflect further on the hon. Gentleman's suggestions.
  There are, of course, existing controls on the sales of knives. Certain types of knives that have no legitimate use—such as flick, gravity and butterfly knives—are banned.
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  If any other knife identified by its construction as being suitable for banning comes on the market or enters the country in some way, of course we will readily and rapidly consider adding it to the controlled list.
  Banned knives all have distinctive mechanisms that can be defined in law. It would be difficult to distinguish between items that have legitimate everyday uses in the home and workplace, such as kitchen and craft knives, and other types—for example, commando-style daggers—that might be considered undesirable.
  It must be recognised that knives are a common feature of everyday life and that, in the wrong hands, almost any bladed or sharply pointed article is potentially a lethal weapon. The Government take the view that imposing further restrictions on the sale of knives would not generally be practicable. However, as I indicated, any particular knives that enter the country or come on the market will be examined to establish whether they can properly and effectively be added to the controlled list. The Government's approach has been to tackle the misuse of knives by tightening the law on possession of knives in public.
  The hon. Member for Leyton asked about further legislation. Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 makes it an offence to possess a bladed or sharply pointed article in a public place without good reason. That Act also places the onus on the knife carrier to show that he had good reason for possessing it in public.
  That measure was aimed at tackling the menace of the casual carrying of knives on the streets to which the hon. Member for Leyton drew attention. It certainly appears to be used with good effect by the courts. In 1989—the latest date for which figures are available—there were more than 1,500 convictions under section 139 of the 1988 Act. It supplements the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, which makes it an offence to carry an offensive weapon in public without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. That offence, unlike the section 139 offence, requires proof of intent to cause injury on the part of the knife carrier, and tough penalties are rightly available to the courts. The maximum penalty is two years' imprisonment or an unlimited fine.
  The Government also introduced powers, under section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, to ban offensive weapons as specified by means of statutory instruments. Butterfly knives and a range of martial arts equipment were banned by that means and the Government are ready to take further action if other types of weapon become a problem.
  The Government believe that the measures I have outlined provide the police and the courts with the powers and penalties to deal with those people who carry knives. As the hon. Member for Leyton knows, the maximum penalty for wounding with intent to cause grievous bodily harm is life imprisonment. A life sentence is mandatory if an attack leads to death and is categorised as murder.
  The hon. Gentleman referred also to a knife amnesty. As he rightly suggested, there is great scope for local initiatives to increase awareness, particularly among young people, of the dangers of carrying knives and offensive weapons and to encourage the safe disposal of those weapons. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Metropolitan police launched such a campaign on 9 December, which involves providing specially adapted bins near police stations where people can deposit knives. I hope that that campaign, which continues until 19

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  January, succeeds in taking substantial numbers of weapons out of circulation. In 1988, when such an amnesty was held in east and south London, some 1,400 knives were collected.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge, who speaks from great knowledge of such matters, urges more public awareness. An amnesty campaign is one way in which police forces can draw a great deal of local attention to the threat of knives and what can be done about it. He is right that parents as well as young people should know the dangers, and I will refer my hon. Friend's suggestions to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge talked about side-handled batons. As he knows, we would be prepared to consider arranging for a scientific evaluation of any equipment that might assist in public order control if the chief officers request it. The offer is there and is open to senior police officers if they believe that such batons would be of advantage to their forces.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge would like a review of police powers of search. He referred to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, which stresses that there must be some objective basis for reasonable suspicion if somebody is to be searched, such as the individual's behaviour or information received. It cannot be supported purely on the basis of personal factors.
  When the codes of practice were revised recently in response to strong pressure from the police, the guidance was made slightly less restrictive by removing the statement that reasonable suspicion should be no less than the suspicion required to effect arrest without warrant. I shall take back to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary what my hon. Friend has said. As there has recently been a revision of codes, I am bound to say that my right hon. Friend may feel that the time is not right for a review. Current powers do not allow for searches that are based on a policeman's hunch that someone may be carrying an illicit article, or for blanket searches that are carried out in a particular area or among particular groups. Legal changes in that direction would, I believe, attract widespread criticism on the basis that unjustified interference with blameless citizens was being sanctioned. I should say to my hon. Friend——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order.

  Bible (Teaching)
  12.30 pm
  Mr. John Bowis: As we come to the great season of Christmas, throughout the country schools and churches have been celebrating with their festivals, especially those of nine lessons and carols. There is the great ninth lesson, the Christmas gospel, which recalls the opening words of Genesis:
  "In the beginning was the Word."
  My theme is yes, but what word? If someone is unlucky and goes to the wrong festival, the lesson will not open with the words that I have quoted. It will start with something like that which appears in the version set out in the New English Bible:
  "When all things began, the Word already was."
  That is a real catchy number to start such a lesson. I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you will be fortunate enough to have the Authorised Version, which contains the passage:
  "There came wise men from the east to Jerusalem."
  The same passage in the New English Bible reads:
  "Astrologers from the east arrived in Jerusalem."
  That is just like Russell Grant on a package tour. Then we have the angels saying to the shepherds:
  "Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes."
  The unlucky person will have instead:
  "You will find a baby wrapped in strips of cloth."
  The angels then sing:
  "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace, good will toward men."
  That has been changed in the Revised Standard Version as follows:
  "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."
  In the New English Bible we find these words:
  "Glory to God in highest heaven and on earth his peace for men on whom his favour rests."
  Try asking angels to sing those words.
  A vicar in Battersea told me the other day that when he went to the church festival of Christmas at the local primary school—one of the schools within his parish—there was plenty of Father Christmas and jingle bells, but not one reference to Jesus. He was told that such a reference might cause embarrassment to some of the pupils. If we ask children or students to recite their favourite passage or line from the Bible, we tend to get some pretty blank looks. I believe that the reason for that is that when the Bible is used in school or in church it is nearly always in the form of a modern version, which is entirely unmemorable and unpoetic. It is not surprising that phrases do not stick in the mind.
  Yet we are talking about some of the greatest passages in English literature as well as one of the great ways of teaching in the Church. There is, however, an exception. Very few schools get away with teaching the Lord's prayer in anything other than something like the traditional way. The first line—
  "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name"—
  has not yet given way in children's parlance to
  "Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed",
  or,
  "Our Father in heaven. may your holy name be honoured."
  Children the world over still repeat:
  "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."
  They do not repeat:
  "Do not bring us to the test, but save us from the evil one",

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  or,
  "Do not bring us to hard testing."
  That sounds like something that they might have at the end of term or something done by an adult working in a steelworks. It is not something that will bring them to the Church and to Jesus.
  So often one hears words that have a vague resemblance to something that one knew in the past, but it is not until one looks up the original that one realises what it was. For example—
  "And you, like the lamp, must shed light among your fellows, so that, when they see the good you do, they may give praise to your Father in Heaven."
  That does not immediately strike one as resembling
  "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven."
  Recently I attended a church service where a passage was read that went this way:
  "May you always be joyful in your union with the Lord. I say it again: rejoice! Show a gentle attitude towards everyone. The Lord is coming soon. Don't worry about anything, but in all your prayers ask God for what you need, always asking Him with a thankful heart. And God's peace, which is far beyond human understanding, will keep your hearts and minds safe in union with Christ Jesus. In conclusion, my brothers, fill your minds with those things that are good and that deserve praise: things that are true, noble, right, pure, lovely, and honourable. Put into practice what you learnt and received from Me, both from my words and from my actions."
  Sure enough, last Sunday in my own church we had a different version that sounded a little more familiar:
  "Rejoice in the Lord always;"—
  it started all right—
  "again I will say, Rejoice. Let all men know your forbearance."—
  I began to get puzzled—
  "The Lord is at hand. Have no anxieties about anything,"—
  that did not sound quite right—
  "but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."
  That gave me the clue. It was a passage that one knew but without the poetry:
  "Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsover things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there by any praise, think on these things."
  I recall that passage because it was recited week after week at my first school and it was recited at the end of term service. Just as one learnt a poem a week at that school, so one learnt the poetry and the music of biblical passages.
  The way that words come is important. There was the famous occasion when King Charles I was told that the Bible had been printed without a vital word, the word "not". The nation was therefore exhorted to commit adultery. That cost the printer some £3,000 and the confiscation of his press. I sometimes wonder whether we
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  should not do the same with some recent translations. It is good to have translations and commentaries to help our understanding, but I believe that we must keep the original poetry of the Authorised Version.
  One could choose many examples. For example—
  "When I was a child I spoke like a child, thought like a child, reasoned like a child; when I grew up I finished with childish things. At present we see only puzzling reflections in a mirror, but one day we shall see face to face."
  Something has been lost from the original, which was:
  "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face."
  Those are the words that stick in one's memory. In the Gospel according to St. Matthew we read:
  "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness."
  In the New English Bible we read:
  "Set your mind on God's Kingdom and His justice before everything else."
  It does not even sound terribly good English. We can also contrast
  "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"
  with
  "Do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious of itself."
  According to the New English Bible, the same passage reads:
  "Each day has troubles enough of its own."
  Mrs. Dale's Diary—here we come, but not the Authorised Version.
  We know about the mote that is in thy brother's eye and about the beam that is in thine own eye becoming the speck of sawdust and the great plank, according to the New English Bible, and about the Revised Version and the Good News Bible both having specks and logs.
  The Sermon on the Mount is perhaps one of the great pieces of literature and of the Bible. The translation that one often hears in churches and schools is not.
  "blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"
  but "how blessed", which is totally pointless; the metre is gone. Churches and schools change
  "blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted"
  to:
  "how blest are the sorrowful: they shall find consolation."
  That sounds like somebody going down to the local after a Chelsea defeat.
  "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth"
  becomes
  "how blest are those of a gentle spirit"
  that sounds a bit wet—
  "they shall have the earth for their possession",
  which is a bit too literal.
  "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled"
  becomes
  "how blest are those who hunger and thirst to see right prevail:",
  which seems pointless,
  "they shall be satisfied"—
  I suspect all too easily.
  "Blessed are the merciful"
  becomes
  "blest are those who show mercy: mercy shall be shown to them."
  That is pointless: only the poetry has gone.
  "Blessed are the pure in heart"
  becomes,
  "how blest are those whose hearts are pure."
  "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God"

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  or, in the New English Bible; sexism reigns:
  "God shall call them his sons."
  The Good News Bible says,
  "happy are those who mourn",
  which is not what the authors of the Bible were trying to say.
  There are many great pieces of literature. Arthur Bryant wrote about the period of Elizabethan England leading to the Jacobean succession. He said:
  "At the moment when England's merchants and seamen were carrying her"—
  Elizabeth's—
  "life and influence into every ocean and continent, her writers were creating, out of a formerly rude vernacular, a literature, not only potentially, but already in achievement, as great as any yet known to history, even that of ancient Greece. Three contributions of supreme literary genius … One was the liturgy of the Anglican church, the other the authorised version of the Bible published under James I in 1611 … The third was the plays of William Shakespeare … Distilled by English scholars and divines from the successive translations and versions of the past century, it became natural for English men and women of all classes—including the humblest and least educated—to laird their speech and thought with its phrases and analogies."
  That is the reality. One did not have to be a genius to appreciate the genius of the Authorised Version; it was picked up and it became part of one's daily life. Just as Vulgate became Tyndale's version, which became the authorised version accompanied by commentaries by J. B. Phillips and translations such as Revised Standard, the New English Bible and the Good News Bible, so Holinshed's "Chronicles" became Shakespeare and Lamb's "Tales", but Shakespeare remained; the Authorised Version did not.
  The Church of England is in danger of destroying its liturgy and contribution to English literature, the King James version of the Bible. Churches and schools will ensure that they survive only if they are familiar to succeeding generations, just as Shakespeare is. It is read in the original; nobody thinks of putting on a modern language version of Shakespeare and I hope that they never do. Modern dress, maybe; modern staging, maybe; but the words will carry on.
  The same is true with classical music. There may be the odd "Boston Pops" or "Nutrocker", but the real Beethoven and Haydn were introduced to generation after generation and children are learning the originals today, just as they are learning the original of Shakespeare.
  I shall use Shakespeare to sum up what I am seeking to say in this short debate about the three pillars of literature—the liturgy, the Authorised Version of the Bible and Shakespeare. I hope that those in authority in Church and state will think of the passage in Hamlet where Hamlet talks to his mother about his father and his stepfather and compares the true father with the fake stepfather. He says:
  "Look here, upon this picture, and on this:
  The counterfeit presentment of two brothers.
  See what a grace was seated on his brow:
  Hyperion's curls; the front of Jove himself;
  An eye like Mars, To threaten or command;
  A station like the herald Mercury,
  New-lighted on a heaven-kissing hill;
  A combination, and a form, indeed,
  Where every god did seem to set his seal."
  The passage continues:
  "Could you on this fair mountain leave to feed,
  And batten on this moor?"
  I hope that the Minister will recognise that passage from his Stratford connections. It goes on to say:
  "I must be cruel, only to be kind."
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  I am not seeking to write off with scorn the translations, many of which are worthy and many of which are good, in parts, but we must protect Shakespeare's language or it will die. We must also protect the Bible or that will die and my message to the lords of Church and school is "May they hear this prayer and let the cry of pain of those who mourn the joy and genius of the Authorised Version come unto them."
  12.46 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Alan Howarth): The House should be grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Mr. Bowis) for raising this subject. This week we have debated important issues but none more important than this. The issue to which my hon. Friend has drawn our attention is the disinheritance of the children of our generation in consequence of the fact that too few teachers or clergy are nowadays accustomed or disposed to use the Authorised Version of the Bible and the 1662 Prayer Book.
  Under the law there must be provision for the religious education of all registered pupils at maintained schools, and pupils must have the opportunity to take part in a daily act of collective worship at school.
  In their study of English under the national curriculum pupils are required to read
  "some of the works which have been most influential in shaping and refining the English language and its literature."
  The Authorised Version is proposed as one of those works. So the study of the Authorised Version need not be confined to the catacombs of our educational system. Indeed, there are considerable numbers of teachers—just as there are of clergy—who believe that it is the natural and right thing to do to use the Authorised Version and the 1662 Prayer Book.
  Two years ago the then editor of The Spectator, Charles Moore, and the Prayer Book Society offered a prize in memory of Thomas Cranmer, to be competed for by schools whose pupils would recite passages from the Prayer Book. The finalists came from seven schools widely spread, and I understand that a more recent competition enlisted yet more schools. That shows that teachers in all parts of the country still love Cranmer's prayers and believe that children should learn passages of great writing by heart.
  The first competition was drawn to the attention of the nation by virtue of a remarkable speech delivered at the presentation of the prize. It was a brilliant and impassioned defence of Cranmer, of the elevated use of language and of the necessity of tradition. The speech contained the following words:
  "What we have to ask ourselves, it seems to me, is whether, by making the words less poetic you really do make them more democratic. Isn't there something rather patronising about the whole assumption? Banality … may be accessible for all, but so is a desert."
  Those words were spoken encouragingly by a person whom we may expect in due course to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
  I said that our children need not be disinherited, but my hon. Friend has pointed to the very real danger that many of them will be.
  We wonder sadly why so many people repudiate their spiritual heritage. Elements of the explanation no doubt include the excessive pretensions of scientific rationalism, the deracinated character of a society endlessly unsettled

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  by technological change, the cultural disintegration and anomie promoted by the mass media, the perversion of liberalism which rejects the principle of authority, the diffidence of those whom we might expect to exercise authority, the expectations cultivated in political prospectuses, the aesthetic nihilism fashionable in our age, the reductionism of modern philosophy, and the perennial tendence of human beings to bite the hand that has fed them. Perhaps, however, we can draw some bleak comfort from recognising that the hatred of beauty and tradition, and the sense of spiritual loss are not new. After all, the 1645 Prayer Book was made illegal and replaced by a directory of public worship. In 1655 Jeremy Taylor found himself driven to write:
  "In this sad declension of religion the supplanters are gone out, and are digging down the foundations."
  In the previous century, William Tyndale was driven out of England; copies of his translation of the New Testament were rounded by and burnt by Bishop Tunstall. Tyndall was strangled by order of the public authorities in, of all places, Brussels.
  I might be tempted then to suppose that the confusion, to put it no lower, that characterises the language of the New English Bible reflects a state of affairs no worse than that of the 16th and 17th centuries. But it is dismaying to read the translator's preface to the 1961 New Testament which reads:
  "In doing our work, we have constantly striven to follow our instructions and render the Greek, as we understand it, into the English of the present day, that is, into the natural vocabulary, constructions and rhythms of contemporary speech … since sound scholarship does not always carry with it a delicate sense of style, the Committee appointed a panel of literary advisers, to whom all the work of the translating panel has been submitted."
  For one thing, the translators seem unaware that prose is not the same as speech. However, the most depressing factor is the dissociation of functions between scholars—"literary advisors"—and clergy—what a falling off from Lancelot Andrewes and the combination in him of such great learning, spiritual depth and literary genius.
  Our modern egalitarians do their own cause a disservice in seeking to displace the Authorised Version. The Bible—in a version that compelled the imagination through its linguistic excellence—was once the common culture of our country and other English-speaking countries. In that time, the simple and the scholarly could equally be sages. Allen Bloom has described it by saying:
  "My grandparents were ignorant people by our standards, and my grandfather held only lowly jobs. But their home was spiritually rich because all the things done in it, not only what was specifically ritual, found their origin in the Bible's commandments, and their explanation in the Bible's stories and the commentaries on them, and had their imaginative counterparts in the deeds of the myriad of exemplary heroes. My grandparents found reasons for the existence of their family and the fulfilment of their duties in serious writings, and they interpreted their special sufferings with respect to a great and enobling past. Their simple faith and practices linked them to great scholars and thinkers who dealt with the same material, not from outside or from an alien perspective, but believing as they did, while simply going deeper and providing guidance. There was a respect for real learning, because it had a felt connection with their lives. This is what a community and a history mean, a common experience inviting high and low into a single body of belief."
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  A change in American life may be seen to have been under way by the time Mrs. Scott Fitzgerald made her critical assessment of Ernest Hemingway's prose style as "pretty damned Biblical".
  It is estimated that in 1611 about 6 million people spoke English; now perhaps 600 million do. But the grandeurs of the 1611 Bible and the 1662 Prayer Book could again be possessed by them as their heritage. The following phrases, of crystalline beauty, are from Tyndale's New Testament of 1534, carried forward into the Authorised Version:
  "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
  Teachers can be confident that Tyndale's precise, simple English is entirely accessible and capable of being appropriated by those whose language is the English of today.
  The following are phrases from Tyndale's translation of the Gospel according to St. Matthew:
  "With God all things are possible … The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak … The burden and heat of the day … The salt of the earth".
  They are modern English.
  Tyndale, after all, translated from the Koine, the ordinary Greek of day-to-day transactions. His genius was to render the directness of that usage in the rhythmic and candenced English of the Renaissance, the language that was Shakespeare's immediate inheritance.
  We do not insist that Shakespeare is rehashed in a modern translation. Shakespeare still pierces and moves those large numbers of people who read him and see his plays. The language of the Authorised Version is for the most part easier than Shakespeare's
  But the great thing is to grow up with that language, so that it is part of one's consciousness. Every Sunday, for a good part of my childhood, I was obliged to attend matins at Winchester cathedral—the cathedral of Bishop Andrewes. When now I hear one of Cranmer's Collects I thrill with a sense of rightness and connectedness. The words of the 1662 Prayer Book have formed my sensibility as much as any other influence.
  I applaud the teachers who continue to require their pupils to learn great texts by heart and I am glad that oracy forms part of the national curriculum. That metaphor, "by heart", is right, for what one possesses through such learning, while most often it cannot be paraphrased, informs one's whole apprehension of, and feeling for, the world.
  Of course the Bible is not merely literature. To teach appreciation of the Bible only as an aesthetic experience is to diminish both it and those whom we teach. To regard the Bible as literature would indeed have been incomprehensible notion in the 17th century. It is written in what C. S. Lewis termed, writing of Milton, the language of ceremony. I hope that teachers will continue to make the Authorised Version part of the experience of worship as well as part of the curriculum. Then their pupils will be able to say in the words of Psalm 119—but let me make it clear that I do not expect them to learn the whole of the psalm—
  "Thy testimonies have I claimed as mine heritage for ever: and why? They are the very joy of my heart."
  I can express such hopes, but Ministers—those of the Crown anyway—cannot impose. I am told that a little while ago, a letter was received at Church house saying,
  "We are doing God this term. Please send full details and pamphlets."

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  I do not know what reply was sent, but I should like to think that, among the details sent, was a commendation to the teacher to learn by heart—as every teacher surely should—Cranmer's Collect for the second Sunday in Advent:
  "Blessed Lord, who hast caused all holy Scriptures to be written for our learning; Grant that we may in such wise hear them, read, mark, learn and inwardly digest them that, by patience, and comfort of thy holy Word, we may embrace, and ever hold fast the blessed hope of everlasting life, which thou hast given us in our Saviour Jesus Christ. Amen."

  Infected Blood Transfusions
  12.57 pm
  Mr. Gavin Strang: Everyone who has become infected with HIV deserves our sympathy and support. There is one group of people, however, who I would argue deserve Government financial provision because their personal tragedy has been a direct result of their use of our national health service. It is hard to believe that anyone in the land would begrudge payments to those individuals who have become HIV antibody-positive and will develop AIDS as a result of contaminated blood or tissue transfers under the health service.
  As you, Madam Deputy Speaker, may know, I have taken an interest in the development of public policy on AIDS over the years and, with the support of the Minister for Social Security and Disabled People—who was then a junior Minister at the Department of Health—I introduced and secured the enactment of the AIDS (Control) Act 1987.
  Edinburgh has a particular AIDS problem. Transmission of the virus has largely been through the use of drugs. I know of a number of people in my constituency who are either HIV-positive or who have gone on to develop AIDS. It was only in October this year that I discovered that one of my constituents had become infected as a direct result of a blood transfusion.
  My constituent was rushed to hospital to have her first child. It was necessary in the course of the birth for her to have a blood transfusion. That was in 1984. Not until 1989, after she had had a second child, did she discover that she was HIV positive as a direct result of a contaminated blood transfusion at the time of the birth of her first child.
  It is a tragic story when anybody is infected, but everyone's heart goes out to people who become infected through the national health service. My constituent developed the symptoms of AIDS over the years without knowing that she was HIV positive. Only through her work with a voluntary Church group, set up to work with, help and support people with AIDS, did she begin to sense that the symptoms she was showing were not dissimilar to those about which she was learning in her work with that group.
  My constituent is now in hospital. I hope that she will not be there for long. Fortunately, neither of her children or her husband has become infected. Like others in her position, regardless of how they have become infected, it is an extremely private matter. The vast majority of people who are HIV positive wish to retain the knowledge as a secret to themselves or to close friends and family.
  As a result of the overwhelming need for justice in this matter, the Minister should be aware that a group has been formed of non-haemophiliacs who have become HIV positive as the result of an NHS blood transfusion or tissue transfer. That group was established at a meeting in Merseyside last week. Its chair and spokesperson, elected at that meeting, is Davy, and he can be contacted through a solicitor named Brian Donald of York place, Edinburgh, telephone 031–556 7951. Davy is in the Public Gallery today listening to the debate. I hope that he will hear a positive response from the Minister later.
  According to Government statistics, 37 people are alive in the United Kingdom in that position; 25 others have already died. Most of them were infected before the

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  National Blood Transfusion Service began screening donations in October 1985, although at least two have become infected since then owing to the window period between infection and sero conversion.
  The House will remember that in December 1990 the Government finally took the decision to make provision for 1,217 haemophiliacs infected with HIV through the blood product factor 8. An out-of-court settlement was made, bringing the total sums provided to £76 million. It took five long years of campaigning for haemophiliacs to see justice done, though many people were not convinced of the adequacy even of that settlement.
  We are now asking for equal treatment for non-haemophiliacs infected with HIV as the result of an NHS blood transfusion or tissue transfer. As this group of people is much smaller than the number of haemophiliacs, the sum required would be correspondingly less, perhaps £4 million.
  The Government have given a number of reasons so far for not providing compensation for non-haemophiliacs. They say that they cannot distinguish between infected non-haemophiliacs and other victims of medical accidents and that making provision for them would set a precedent for the piecemeal introduction of no-fault compensation. That is an irrelevant distraction. We are arguing not about no-fault compensation, but that non-haemophiliacs and haemophiliacs should be given equal treatment.
  Last year, the Government were careful to insist that they were not providing compensation to haemophiliacs but simply making ex gratia, out-of-court settlements. In that way, they avoided setting precedents for no-fault compensation. We demand the same for non-haemophiliacs, which would also not set such precedents. One respect in which infected non-haemophiliacs differ from other victims of medical accidents is precisely that a precedent has been set for making provisions for people infected with HIV through NHS blood and tissue transfers.
  The Government have given many reasons for distinguishing between haemophiliacs and non-haemophiliacs, but they are all totally unconvincing. They have argued that haemophiliacs were seriously ill before they became infected, but, by definition, many non-haemophiliacs were also ill before they became infected. Some of them received tissue transfers—those are rather exceptional—and blood transfusions precisely because they were ill with diseases such as leukaemia. The Government's arguments are nonsense, because there is no reason to make a distinction on that ground. What does it matter whether a person receives a blood transfusion because he has leukaemia or because he has had a car accident?
  Secondly, the Government have argued that there is likely to be more than one infected haemophiliac in a family. Haemophilia is genetic and, as a result, there may be more than one in a family. Although HIV is not genetic, it can be transmitted from mother to child and certainly between partners, so there is a real risk that there may be more than one HIV-positive non-haemophiliac in a family as a result of a contaminated blood transfusion.
  Thirdly, the Government have argued that a distinction between haemophiliacs can be made on the ground that, because of a haemophiliac's illness or condition, he or she
  622
  is unlikely to have a well-paid job and therefore be able to afford adequate insurance. Again, a substantial proportion of non-haemophiliacs who received compensation were not in highly paid jobs and did not have insurance to protect them against the prospect of eventually developing AIDS as a result of a blood transfusion contaminated by HIV.
  Those arguments are totally spurious. There is no valid, logical ground for distinguishing between infected haemophiliacs and non-haemophiliacs. That has been accepted by other Governments, such as those of Canada, France, Denmark and Western Australia. Although it may have taken them a little while to get there, they have all recognised that a distinction between infected haemophiliacs and non-haemophiliacs cannot be justified. The Haemophilia Society has also made that point.
  One of the reasons why the haemophiliacs achieved success was that they were organised and had a society to campaign on their behalf. The society never intended to succeed to the exclusion of non-haemophiliacs. There is no justification for drawing a ring fence—to use the technical jargon—around the haemophiliacs. We have to draw a ring fence, but it must be drawn around everybody—non-haemophiliacs and haemophiliacs—who has become infected as a result of a blood transfusion under the national health service.
  No amount of compensation can make up for the enormity of the personal and family tragedies involved, but the money can help to make life easier and more comfortable for those who are still alive. The money can help the families, especially the children, of those who have died as a result of AIDS.
  There are good reasons for pursuing the issue until the Government recognise the justice of the case. I tabled an early-day motion which has all-party support and I emphasise that this is an all-party campaign. The motion now has 234 signatures and is a powerful demonstration of the support of Parliament for non-haemophiliacs. Hon. Members are overwhelmingly of the view that the Government's position is untenable and that they need to think again. There is no justification for continuing to distinguish between haemophiliacs and non-haemophiliacs.
  The Minister has a chance this afternoon to rectify the mistake made last December when the Government announced that they would provide compensation for haemophiliacs. That was an error of judgment because the announcement should have included non-haemophiliacs. I have given the figure for the number affected. The Government figure may include one or two more people, but even if there are a few more, the total number is substantially lower than the number of haemophiliacs affected. There can be no ground for resisting the argument on the basis of financial considerations, as the Minister knows.
  I have sought to demonstrate that the grounds for the Government's argument are entirely spurious. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity to put the matter right. The issue will not go away and the sooner that we get an announcement that justice will be provided for the non-haemophiliacs the better.
  1.13 pm
  The Minister for Health (Mrs. Virginia Bottomley): I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) on seeking this opportunity to raise a subject of understandable concern which undoubtedly arouses deep sympathy in all of us. It is a tragedy that people have become infected with HIV through blood transfusions or through tissue transfer. I join the hon. Gentleman in expressing my sympathy for those affected by this unfortunate tragedy which has blighted the lives of those infected and the lives of their families.
  I recognise that the hon. Gentleman has a longstanding and special concern about the whole question of HIV and AIDS. He spoke particularly of the situation in Edinburgh. He will know that the prevalence of HIV and AIDS varies in different parts of the country. I visited Edinburgh earlier this year to meet Dr. Mok and many others involved in the provision of services. I visited the new hospice in the centre of Edinburgh and saw much of the medical treatment available for those suffering from HIV and AIDS, whatever the cause.
  In a sense, the hon. Gentleman's debate is about how people contracted HIV and AIDS. That is the point that he seeks to make, but he, of all people, will also be aware that the development of appropriate services, support and care for those suffering from this fatal disease has been a major challenge and a major priority for us all.
  The Government's response to the hon. Gentleman's comments cannot just be a matter of sympathetic words. We are taking steps to ensure that appropriate services and treatment are available to those with HIV and AIDS and that appropriate services and treatment are available to the blood transfusion and tissue recipients and to all others who are infected.
  We are seeking as far as possible to alleviate and delay the effects of the infection. We continue to support research and that support amounts to about £31 million during the past five years; about £500 million has been put by the Government into the development of services and treatment for people with HIV and AIDS. This year, the substantial ring-fenced funds of £160 million for the national health service and other organisations are the Government's contribution to preventing the further spread of HIV and providing diagnosis, treatment, care and support services.
  Next year those resources are being increased to almost £200 million. That shows a clear commitment to the development of services in this country, which leads the world in the provision of care, support and treatment for those suffering from HIV and AIDS.
  As I say, the hon. Gentleman has long identified the threat to public health and the enormous difficulty facing individuals and families. He sponsored the AIDS (Control) Act 1987 which, through its reports, gives the Government and health authorities a strong strategic tool with which to monitor the progress and effectiveness of their prevention and treatment efforts in the area of AIDS and the use of the earmarked money.
  Earlier this year I was also able to give the initial results of the anonymised HIV sero-surveys. Hon. Members will be aware that fact is much better than fantasy in the area of HIV and AIDS. It was essential in terms of the development and planning of services, particularly in the
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  light of the large ring-fenced sums of money available for the work, that we should have a better estimate of the prevalence and spread of the disease.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the situation in Edinburgh. Our figures demonstrated that the prevalence of HIV infection among women attending ante-natal clinics in certain parts of inner London was 1 in 500. As a result of those figures, I established the AIDS action group, which I chair. The group is studying ways of reaching key population groups and ways of co-ordinating work across a number of sectors. It will enable us to build on and to make widely known the tremendous amount of effective work already being carried forward locally. The task is urgent and we are making rapid progress. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there are similar developments in Scotland.
  The time has come with the development of services, prevention and support for those with HIV and AIDS to ensure that we have an effective way of ensuring that all those who are infected or increasingly affected by HIV and AIDS receive the support and care that they deserve.
  The debate concerns those infected through blood transfusion and tissue transfer. I can assure the House that all practical steps are being taken to safeguard our blood supply, of which we are justly proud. Those engaging in high-risk activities associated with HIV are not accepted as blood donors and all donations are tested for HIV antibodies. Tissue donors are also tested and by such means we seek to prevent a recurrence of this appalling and unforeseen tragedy.
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members will acknowledge the substantial measures taken by the Government to ensure that appropriate treatment, care and support are provided for those with HIV and to protect against any recurrence of this tragedy. Difficulties have arisen on the issue of compensation and are of concern to the hon. Gentleman. Governments of all parties accept that when there has been negligence in treatment the national health service should compensate those who have been damaged. It is for individuals to decide whether to pursue such cases and, until now, the main avenue of redress has been the courts.
  As the hon. Gentleman may know, we are consulting on proposals for an arbitration scheme in respect of claims for negligence against the health service. That follows a suggestion by Lord Griffiths in his address to the annual conference of the Law Society in October 1990 that claims for compensation could, with the agreement of both parties, be considered by a small panel of medical and legal experts working on paper and applying the normal principles of negligence under common law. Any damages awarded would not be limited and would be calculated according to established guidelines. Such a system might provide a simpler, quicker and cheaper route for those who opted to use it in preference to the courts. If the suggestion meets with general support, perhaps we could develop a pilot trial in one or two regional health authorities.
  Of course, the avenue of legal action is open to blood transfusion recipients infected with HIV. The hon. Gentleman sought to argue that for this group the Government should go further and provide compensation without any need to show negligence—that we should compensate, effectively, on a no-fault basis.
  Earlier this year the House carefully considered the merits and demerits of a no-fault compensation scheme

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  when the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mrs. Barnes) presented her NHS (Compensation) Bill for Second Reading. On a free vote, the Government and the House rejected that Bill. That was certainly not because we lacked sympathy for the victims of medical accidents. As I hope we have shown, the contrary is the case. It is the duty of government to consider the wider implications for policy of any such major proposals. Any workable scheme of no-fault compensation would be enormously costly, and in attempting to solve one set of problems it would create another. Inevitably, there would be unfairness because those injured through NHS treatment would be compensated, while those injured or disabled through natural causes would not. Severe difficulties over causation would remain. The accountability of those providing treatment could also be reduced. There could be substantial cost implications if the awards were not to be unacceptably small, which is the case in some countries that have adopted such a scheme.
  The proposals that I have mentioned offer a much better hope of finding a workable way forward for our current system. Following the full debate on 1 February when the Secretary of State for Health addressed the House, the House decisively rejected the principle of no-fault compensation for those injured because of NHS treatment when no negligence had been demonstrated. No one can underestimate the difficulties of these questions and of the decisions involved. Inevitably, there will be further demands on finite NHS resources. I have spoken about the way in which we have deliberately and determinedly invested additional resources in the development of services for those with HIV and AIDS.
  Mr. Strang: The Minister's comments about no-fault compensation are interesting, but the crunch issue is about how the Government justify making a distinction between haemophiliacs and non-haemophiliacs. That is the issue that I covered in my speech and I trust that the Minister will reply to it. Surely they can provide compensation for non-haemophiliacs in the same way as for haemophiliacs. It is simply a matter of erecting the ring fence in a logical place. I do not want to get involved in the argument about no-fault compensation. I hope that the hon. Lady will address the issue that I have raised.
  Mrs. Bottomley: I hope that explaining the various ways in which we are tackling the problem will help the hon. Gentleman to understand why we reached the decision that we did. It is important to consider that group in the context of the larger group of HIV and AIDS sufferers, to make it clear that—whatever the causation—they are suffering from a disease for which there is no known cure and to which we and the hon. Gentleman have sought to give priority.
  It is important to establish the arguments in respect of no-fault compensation. Although it may initially seem superficially appealing, its long-term implications for the health service would be very serious. In reaching the decision a year ago that the haemophiliacs in question should be offered financial assistance because they were a special and specific group, the Government considered carefully the various factors involved. We took the view that because they already suffered from health, social and
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  financial disadvantages associated with their lifelong condition, an exceptional decision should be made in their case.
  The hon. Gentleman argued that the payments made to HIV-infected haemophiliacs should be considered as a precedent for blood transfusion cases. There is hardly any need for me to remind the House of the lengthy campaign on behalf of haemophiliacs—supported by many right hon. and hon. Members, the public and the media—whose advocates reiterated that haemophiliacs were an exceptional and specific group who merited exceptional treatment. The Government remain convinced that their case is exceptional.
  It is always extremely difficult to draw distinctions. It is likely that there will always be a group who will feel unfairly treated, seek to have the limits redrawn and the boundary altered, and argue that they should be incorporated rather than excluded. That will be the case whenever such a decision is made.
  The Government recognised the arguments forcefully put to us that HIV-infected haemophiliacs were a special case. I repeat that their lifelong condition of haemophilia—which had already adversely affected their health, social, employment, insurance, and mortgage prospects—was further exacerbated by the onset of HIV.
  Mr. Strang: Does the Minister agree that those haemophiliacs were deemed to be a special case precisely because they were infected by contaminated blood from the national health service? But is it not the case that only haemophiliacs infected in that way were compensated—not those infected in any other way?
  Mrs. Bottomley: The hon. Gentleman is correct. The haemophiliacs in question were given contaminated blood products by those who sought to treat them. The particular arguments and considerations given to their particular case have been much rehearsed.
  No one can argue effectively that a line can be drawn anywhere and be left unchallenged. It is inherent in such an initiative that there will always be some who are on the other side of that line who were contaminated through no fault of their own—or even through some fault of their own—and who will argue that they also ought to receive financial recompense. It is naive to believe other than that there will always be some groups on the other side of the line who will seek to argue that it should be moved. That must be so wherever financial decisions are involved.
  In the case of the haemophiliacs, the Government responded generously, making available more than £76 million to help the 1,200 individuals affected with HIV and their families. A haemophiliac with dependants will receive around £80,000 from that sum, and those with particular needs can receive additional help from the Macfarlane Trust, which has been further funded with Government money. The support that has been provided by the Government for this specific group compares favourably with state help that is provided elsewhere for haemophiliacs with HIV. The House will be aware that the Governments of about half the EC countries have made no recognition of the plight of this group.
  Those advocating help for HIV-infected blood transfusion and tissue recipients argue, as has the hon. Gentleman, that the cost would be relatively small. Thankfully, the numbers suffering as a result of the tragedy are relatively small. We know of 62 reported cases

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  where treatment was given in the United Kingdom. We estimate that the cost of extending the recent settlement for haemophiliacs to transfusion or tissue cases treated here could be about £10 million. That is not an insignificant amount. It equates with the cost of 1,000 kidney transplants or 500 bone marrow transplants or 500 heart transplants.
  In short, we share the great sympathy that the hon. Gentleman feels for this particular group of patients. We are committed to developing first-rate, effective and supportive services for the treatment and care of those with HIV and AIDS. The Government have not been persuaded, however, that blood transfusion and tissue recipients constitute a special case. We shall, of course, consider carefully the views which have been expressed by the hon. Gentleman. We have great sympathy for these tragic cases and for their families.

  Schools (Berkshire)
  1.30 pm
  Sir Anthony Durant: I am delighted to have the opportunity to raise this matter. It has come about because one of my colleagues cancelled his debate. That gave me the opportunity to introduce this subject. I came in, as it were, at a rather late stage.
  The two schools that are mentioned on the Order Paper are of the highest standard in Berkshire. Little Heath school, in my constituency, is one of the two. Ryeish Green school is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East (Sir G. Vaughan). I hope, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you will allow my hon. Friend to intervene briefly as we proceed.
  Incidentally, the headmaster of Little Heath school taught my daughter in another school in Berkshire. I have, therefore, a close interest in the school.
  The history is that four parents with four children applied for entry into Little Heath school in the normal way. Their children were due to start at the school in September 1991. They were refused entry on the ground that the school was full. The parents went through the appeals procedure and were refused again. The appeal committee upheld the decision of the local education authority. The four parents were not satisfied with the decision. They refused to send their children to any other school. I should say that one parent sent his child to Meadway school but still wishes to transfer to Little Heath.
  The parents wrote to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and he replied to the effect that he could not intervene because the LEA had not acted unreasonably. I feel strongly that the Government's policy of open enrolment is being flouted. The LEA continues to say that the school is full.
  Little Heath school was first measured in 1979. It was decided then that the maximum intake was 239. The actual intake between 1983 and 1989 was 210. The school was remeasured in 1990, and the intake that year was 253. In 1991, the year in question, the intake was 239. There were six successful appeals, so 245 became the final figure. In August 1991, three children withdrew, which meant that 242 became the final figure. Three places became available. The number of admissions the previous year was 11 more than the total number of entrants in 1991.
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science has to decide whether the LEA has acted unreasonably. I believe that there are grounds for intervention. During the appeals the parents were not given full information. For example, the catchment map was not produced. There are arguments in the county about whether there is a catchment map. In some letters it is referred to as being in existence and in others it is not. The parents' representations were not circulated to the appeals committee and only one parent's preference was allowed by the local education authority, which is contrary to the Department of Education and Science circular 11/88 and contrary to the Act.
  Two stages of the appeal do not appear to have been followed. The first part of an appeal is to consider whether the entry will cause the school to suffer because of having too many children. The appeals committee then has to decide whether, if it supports the local education authority, the children's needs and the parents' preference

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  ought to override that decision. There may be extenuating circumstances, in the case of the parents and the children, that ought to override the earlier decision. That process was not followed.
  The Government's policy of encouraging open enrolment is right. I support it. I believe that as many parents as possible should have the opportunity to send their children to the school that they want them to attend. I urge the Minister, therefore, to intervene in this case on grounds of space. According to the figures, it appears that the school took in 11 additional children during the previous year. The argument being used is that because of the national curriculum requirements the school is more crowded and that four additional children cannot be accommodated. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East will deal with the problem that has arisen at Ryeish Green where there are similar problems about numbers.
  As the procedures laid down by statute have not been properly followed, I appeal to the Minister to look into the matter. It will not go away. The parents are very determined. Unless the Minister intervenes, I have no doubt that this issue will end up in the courts. I ask him, therefore, to consider seriously the points that I have made, to look again, with his colleagues, at what has happened and to provide the opportunity for these four children to go to the school that they wish to attend. It is a fine school. The parents are very determined that their children should go to it and feel very aggrieved that that opportunity has been denied to them.
  1.36 pm
  Sir Gerard Vaughan: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West (Sir A. Durant) for enabling me to join in the debate. I strongly support the points that he has made. The position is highly unsatisfactory. My hon. Friend referred to the problems at Little Heath school. I intend to speak about similar problems at Ryeish Green school.
  Ryeish Green is an extremely popular school, despite the fact that many of its facilities are less good than those provided by other schools in the neighbourhood. That says a great deal for the way in which Ryeish Green is run and managed. Its allocation for this year is 186 places. I ask the Minister to consider whether it is right that the local education authority should be able to allocate the number of school places in that way when—this is very misleading for parents—the actual entry number is different. Physically handicapped children are added to Ryeish Green's allocation of 186 places. In addition, there are children whom the appeal panel regard as worthy of a place. The word "worthy" is slightly invidious, but that is the wording that the appeal panel uses.
  This year's allocation of 186 places was, therefore, increased to 199. The school agreed that it could take that number of children. Just before the September term started, a few children dropped out. The number of allocated places was then reduced from 199 to 196. However, parents who were anxious to send their children to Ryeish Green—whose names, presumably, were on the waiting list—were not allowed to do so. They resented that deeply.
  Moreover, the headmaster offered an additional entrance form this year, but the local education authority
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  has refused to transfer any funds for that purpose. Presumably funds will have been made available for those children at another school. The greatest injustice felt by the parents is that they have been told that there is a catchment area and that preference is given to children from the primary school catchment area. As my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West said, there is considerable confusion and misunderstanding about whether there is a catchment area. Parents feel a double injustice because, having failed to get their children into Ryeish Green, they are compelled to send them to other schools in the area, regardless of whether they want to do so. Having failed to get their children into Ryeish Green, a number of parents are keeping their children at home, which is very unsatisfactory.
  I asked locally for the names of the people who are on the appeal panel, how they were appointed and selected and what criteria they applied in making their judgment. I was told that that was confidential and could not be passed to me, which again is unsatisfactory.
  In October, the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Fallon), was good enough to reply to my letter. He pointed out that the Secretary of State's scope to intervene in school admissions is "extremely limited". He said that
  "The authority's general duty to admit children to the school chosen by their parents does not apply in certain circumstances".
  Again, I found that unsatisfactory, because it is not clear to parents what circumstances prevent their children from being admitted. He further said:
  "Admission authorities can have any reasonable criteria they like."
  That is not satisfactory. He continues:
  "Catchment areas are not illegal or unreasonable in themselves but they may be vulnerable to legal challenge if they are drawn to co-incide with the county boundary and thus give priority to the LEA's own residents."
  We have recently had the court adjudication, which is under appeal, on the Greenwich area. It appears to be totally contrary to what the courts have decided for another part of the country.
  Finally—this is a glimmer of light—my hon. Friend the Minister says:
  "If the governors wish to do so, they can ask the LEA to increase the school's admission limit for next year and if the LEA were to refuse, the governors could apply to the Secretary of State for an increased standard number"
  of admissions.
  I am glad to have been able to participate in this short debate. I hope that I have said enough to show the strong feelings about the system in our area. Contrary to what we had hoped from increased parental choice, the system seems to have become more bureaucratic and less flexible.
  I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will take note of what the hon. Members for Reading, East and Reading, West have said and will agree to reconsider the position.
  1.42 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Alan Howarth): I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Reading, West (Sir A. Durant) and for Reading, East (Sir G. Vaughan) on their persistence in pursuing the concerns of their constituents. They have written several times to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and have pursued the interests of their constituents with determination. Persistence is one of the hallmarks of

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  an effective Member of Parliament and I pay full tribute to my hon. Friends for all the work that they have done on behalf of their constituents.
  My hon. Friends raised the issue of parental choice and the admission of children to school. This is a matter of close interest to all our constituents—and rightly so—as is borne out by the correspondence that my ministerial colleagues and I receive from right hon. and hon. Members.
  I share my hon. Friend's strong belief in parental choice in education. Our reforms are designed to enhance parental choice and to improve the information available to parents, to allow a more informed exercise of that choice. That is what more open enrolment, to use the jargon phrase, is all about. The Education Reform Act 1988 extends parental choice by providing increased opportunity for parents to send their children to the schools of their choice.
  My hon. Friends have clearly conveyed in their letters to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State the disappointment of parents who were unsuccessful in gaining a place for their children at Little Heath and Ryeish Green.
  That is entirely understandable. However, I emphasise that the improvements that we have introduced enhance parental choice but do not guarantee that parents will, in all cases, be able to gain a place for their child at the school of their choice. It is, I fear, unavoidable that some parents will be disappointed.
  The number of places for admission to a school each year must necessarily be related to the capacity of the school. To do otherwise would cause overcrowded conditions, would affect teaching and the children's ability to learn and would benefit no one.
  Sir Gerard Vaughan: I have listened carefully to what the Minister said, but how does he explain that the numbers can go up and down from one week to another? Either the school is full or it is not; either there are places or there are not.
  Mr. Howarth: If my hon. Friend will allow me to continue I may be able to deal with that issue in the context of the circumstances in Reading and in the particular schools.
  The key point about more open enrolment is that there is now a minimum number of admissions to a school—known as the standard number—which is related to the physical capacity of the school. The admissions authority for a school—the local education authority in the case of county schools which we are debating today—must admit children up to at least its standard number. It cannot set lower admissions numbers for administrative convenience.
  Our reforms are designed to maximise parental choice but no matter how much my hon. Friends and I would like all parents to obtain their choice of school for their children, the number of pupils admitted to a school must be limited, not least in the educational interests of the children already admitted.
  Sir Anthony Durant: What concerns me about the particular school in which I am interested is that there are fewer children this year than the previous year. I cannot understand how that happens. We accept that there must be figures on which decisions are based, but there has been a sudden variation in the figures for entries into that school.
  Mr. Howarth: If my hon. Friend will allow me to develop the case a little further I shall try to set his particular concern in the context of the general policy appertaining to these issues. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that we must do all that we can to ensure that the options available are the best possible.
  The introduction of standard numbers under more open enrolment means that admissions authorities can no longer set arbitrary restrictions on admission to popular schools. Of course, if an authority wishes to admit above the standard number, it can do so.
  I understand that the standard number for Ryeish Green school is 186. Berkshire local education authority, after consultation with the head and the governors, agreed to increase the intake to 191 in the interests of meeting parental choice in the area. I understand that the authority has said that it proposes to keep admissions at the higher level.
  In the case of Little Heath school there have been changes in the numbers of admissions in the past couple of years and they have, I think, caused some confusion among parents who have appealed to the Secretary of State about their child's non-admission. I shall explain briefly what I understand to have happened.
  Little Heath school has a standard number of 239. That was the admissions number published for the school for 1990. Subsequently, the local education authority carried out a reassessment of the school's capacity and the admissions number was raised following consultation with the school governors to 253 for 1991. The school's accommodation was then again reassessed—
  Sir Anthony Durant: The school's intake was 253 in 1990. In 1991 it was 239. The Minister's figures are right, but his years are wrong.
  Mr. Howarth: It is extremely important that we understand each other correctly and that we are discussing the same facts. I shall continue with my exposition and if it proves to be the case that there has been a misunderstanding between my hon. Friends and the Department, we shall of course pursue it as constructively and helpfully as we can. However, I am not sure that my hon. Friend is entirely right in his apprehension.
  The school's accommodation was again reassessed by the local education authority to take account of the requirements of the national curriculum, in consultation with the head and school governors. As a result, the local education authority assessed the school's capacity as indicating an admission limit below 239. It is perhaps regrettable that the authority and governors felt it necessary to reduce the admissions number for the school, having increased it the previous year. They did not seek to reduce the admissions below the standard number of 239; if they had wished to do so, they would have required the approval of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State.
  The authority has said that it regrets the situation that has arisen in those cases, but that, having regard for the pupils already at the school, it could not justify an increase in the admission levels at the schools. If the governing body of the school is unhappy with the currently agreed level of admissions and wishes to increase the school's admission limits for next year it can of course approach the local education authority. That is not all that it can do. If the local education authority is unwilling to grant an

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  increase in admissions, the governors can apply to the Secretary of State for an increase in the school's standard number.
  As the schools were oversubscribed for this year, places at the schools were allocated in accordance with the authority's published criteria. On the basis of those criteria, the children of constituents about whom my hon. Friends have written did not gain places at the school. Once places had been allocated, parents who did not obtain a place for their child were given the opportunity of presenting their appeals to the independent appeals committee. The authority's decisions were considered and upheld by the appeals committee.
  My right hon. and learned Friend has considered, at my hon. Friends' request, the concerns of their constituents regarding the non-admission of their children and whether to intervene in the matter. I gladly pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Reading, West and for Reading, East for their hard work on behalf of their constituents, but I must remind them of the limits on the powers of my right hon. and learned Friend in such matters. Before he could intervene, my right hon. and learned Friend would need to be satisfied either that the authority was acting "unreasonably" or that it was failing in its duty under section 6 of the Education Act 1980 to observe parental preferences. To fall within the term "unreasonable", as interpreted by the courts, an authority's conduct must be conduct that no sensible authority, acting with due appreciation of its responsibilities, would have decided to adopt. Those are strict criteria and understandably so. My right hon. and learned Friend's powers do not allow him to act as a court of appeal, reviewing the decisions of local appeal committees; and it is not enough that he should simply disagree with the local education authority's decision. He cannot substitute his own judgment for that of the admissions authority.
  After careful consideration of the points raised by my hon. Friends on their constituents' behalf, my right hon. and learned Friend concluded that the Berkshire local education authority did not appear to have acted "unreasonably"—in this strict sense—in changing the admissions number to Little Heath back to the standard number; and that there were therefore no grounds on which he could intervene in those cases.
  Provided an appeal committee is constituted in accordance with the provisions of schedule 2 to the Education Act 1980, the Secretary of State cannot intervene in respect of its findings, although it is open to the local ombudsman to investigate its decisions and procedure.
  My hon. Friends the Members for Reading, West and for Reading, East have served splendidly the interests of their constituents, who are understandably disappointed and distressed about the non-admission of their children to the school of their choice. I hope that my hon. Friends accept that we have looked closely at the points that they have raised; it is unfortunate that expectations of higher admissions to Little Heath were not maintained, but the local education authority is meeting the legal requirements by continuing to admit up to the school's standard number
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  and, on the evidence that we have, I do not think that we can describe the action of the local education authority in reducing admissions in 1991–92 as "unreasonable" in the strict legal sense, however much we may regret it.
  Sir Gerard Vaughan: May I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to think a little further? The points that we have raised refer to two particular schools but also to a system, which we think is unsatisfactory and which he may also feel, following the Greenwich court case, needs re-examination. We do not think that the rigid application of catchment areas is fulfilling the Government's intentions in respect of increased parental choice and we should be grateful if the Minister would have another look at the position not just of our schools but generally.
  Mr. Howarth: I think that my hon. Friend accepts that, in the case affecting the school in his constituency, full evidence has been put before us and that we have considered it with the utmost care. Of course, if any new evidence were presented, we would look at the circumstances again. On the wider issue of principle and policy, we are most anxious to make the enhancement of parental choice and the policy of more open enrolment a most effective reality. I hope that my hon. Friends will recognise, however, that it is a time-honoured and integral part of our education system that there should be local education authorities which have discretion to manage affairs within their own areas, and we have to consider carefully what balance we should strike between the pursuit of the Government's strategy of enhancing parental choice—something to which the overwhelming majority of local education authorities are committed—and the preservation of proper authority for LEAs in their own areas.
  Sir Anthony Durant: What concerns me in the case of Little Heath is that the national curriculum is the ground being cited for the reduction in numbers. Are the Government pleased at the prospect of schools shrinking as a result of the national curriculum when what we are supposed to be doing is extending the education service?
  Mr. Howarth: It is certainly not generally the case that schools are reducing the number of pupils because of the national curriculum. My hon. Friend represents the interests of parents and of children who attend Little Heath school and he will not want those interests to be neglected. It seems to all of us to be extremely important that physical circumstances should be provided to enable teachers to teach the national curriculum and children to learn it in conditions that are satisfactory.
  As I said earlier, I perfectly understand the frustration of parents whose hopes that their children would obtain a place were disappointed, but, on the face of it, it does not appear to me that the local education authority has done the wrong thing in addressing itself to the issue of how the national curriculum can best be delivered in the particular circumstances of the school.
  I hope that my hon. Friends the Members for Reading, East and for Reading, West will find my comments as constructive as they were intended to be and that I have reassured them that we have examined carefully the points that they have raised.

  Fire and Emergency Services (London)
  1.57 pm
  Ms. Kate Hoey: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise some important matters of concern regarding the provision of fire and emergency services in our capital city. At this time of year, and with terrorists making increasing use of fire bombs, our minds are drawn to the work of the emergency services. We all reject strongly the activities of those terrorists, and I am sure that the whole House and the country would like to pay tribute to the dedicated work done, day in, day out, by our fire fighters, ambulance staff and police officers to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude. No doubt we should all like to wish all those staff, and others working over the holiday period, a happy Christmas and a prosperous new year.
  The broadening of our consciousness of the fire brigade in London has been well served by London Weekend Television's excellent programme "London's Burning". Apparently, the programme is technically very accurate and it is advised on at every stage by expert fire fighters. Its only slight fault is that it does not quite do justice to the length of time that fire fighters spend in training and keeping fit between calls. Keeping up to date with the latest developments in every area, our fire fighters truly are professionals, and have little time left to sit around between calls drinking tea.
  I am privileged to have the fire authority headquarters based in my constituency and I propose first to concentrate on four issues affecting the London fire brigade.
  First, the London fire and civil defence authority has a statutory duty under the Fire Services Act 1947 to provide a fire-fighting service. The Act also gives discretionary powers for the authority to use its resources to provide other special emergency rescue services. Those emergency rescue services, for which no extra Government funding is available, cover such things as road traffic accidents, people shut in lifts, people locked in and out of premises, the emergency flooding of premises and cats stranded up trees.
  In the first quarter of this year, the fife brigade attended 18,700 such calls, of which more than 1,000 were motoring accidents. Surely it is absurd that such essential services, which form 40 per cent. of the work of the London fire brigade, should be considered as discretionary and be exempted from the funding formula.
  In the past five years, the mainstream work of fire fighting has increased by 7 per cent. and the funding has followed that marginal increase. Over the same period, those other essential emergency services have increased by over 70 per cent., with not an extra penny from the Government.
  Secondly, I challenge the Minister to defend the Government's inaction in dealing with the capital needs of London's fire brigade. Because of massive demographic changes in the capital, the authority has had to increase and relocate many of its services. As many fire stations are in buildings that are historic and listed, those changes have meant significant alterations in station usage. The Government have failed entirely to consider the costs of the statutory duties of the authority to maintain those buildings in line with listed building standards.
  Similarly, the Government's so-called commitment to the equality of women in the work-place is shown again to be lip service as, in funding the fire authority, the
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  Government ignore the costs that must be borne by the authority—and rightly so—in altering many stations to accommodate the increasing number of women fire fighters.
  The costs of developing and introducing new technology and equipment designed to save increasingly more lives are still not met by the Government in working out the funding. As a result, we risk losing our position as a world leader in life saving.
  Thirdly, I come to the topical subject of pension funds, though I shall avoid the temptation to make comparisons with the problems facing the many Mirror Group and Maxwell Communication Corporation pensioners. Fire authorities are statutorily obliged to meet pension obligations for fire fighters from their revenue budgets. Between 1986 and 1990, when the Conservatives, with Liberal support, spawned the administration of the London fire and civil defence authority, more than 600 front-line fire fighters were cut from the establishment.
  While today's revenue budget is led by the new, smaller number of fire fighters, the authority still has to pay for the pensions of the former staff. That pensions expenditure is predicted to rise between 1988 and 1993 from £13 million to a massive £34 million, which would account for about 14 per cent. of the authority's revenue budget, inevitably at the expense of other areas, such as training.
  Fourthly, on fire cover, I challenge the Minister to respond to the outdated and discredited system of fire risk assessment which the Government have refused to address. It may not be well known that London's first fire bridges were established by insurance companies to protect the buildings that they covered. Since then, fire risk assessment on which basis fire fighters and engines are distributed and from which their funding is determined has been based almost exclusively on buildings and not on people. Those categories of A risk—the most intense—down to D risk are long overdue for replacement. The Government have failed to take the advice of many senior fire professionals to agree to such a fundamental review quickly. Although those assessed risk categories provide only minimum standards, I am pleased that the London fire brigade provides a service that is far higher than that bare minimum. I compliment the commitment of the members of the London fire authority, led by Councillor Tony Ritchie and Chief Fire Officer Brian Robinson, and the constructive co-operation of the trade unions involved in that service. Their commitment is extremely high.
  Funding is based only on the minimum cover, even though the London fire brigade provides a service that is far higher than the bare minimum. A system that provides only for a minimum service is selling the people of London short. It relies on the extra dedication and commitment of individual fire fighters. A parallel can be drawn with the work and commitment of the ambulance service, and I shall allow for a short intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) specifically on that.
  A more co-ordinated approach is needed to the resource allocations of the fire brigade. My hon. Friends and I look forward to the introduction of a Greater London authority to work with the fire service in performing a critical co-ordinating role, with the arrival in the next six months of a Labour Government.
  I wish to give the Minister plenty of time to respond and I challenge him to answer the following points. When will the Government agree to extending the fire authorities'

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  statutory responsibility to include other emergency rescue work with the necessary funding to pay for it? When will they provide suitable funding, through the basic credit approval system, which at present does not even keep pace with inflation, to undertake the essential building programme and fully keep up with the increase in the number of women fire fighters and ever-developing technology?
  When will the Government agree to a standard spending assessment to meet unavoidable pension realities? When will they allow fire authorities to operate proper investment pension funds? When will they agree to a fire assessment system that takes proper account of people rather than just buildings?
  As those issues and others that will be raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North cannot be dealt with fully in a short debate, will the Minister arrange for a full debate on this important subject in the new year in Government time and for a statement to be made? When will the Government stop running away from their responsibilities properly to fund emergency services for the people of London?
  2.7 pm
  Mr. Jeremy Corbyn: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Ms. Hoey) and the Minister for allowing me to contribute briefly to this debate. I wish to talk specifically about another aspect of London's emergency services. Although I wholeheartedly support what my hon. Friend said about the fire service, I wish to speak about the ambulance service.
  May I state for the record—it is in the Register of Members' Interests—that I am sponsored in the House by the National Union of Public Employees, which has a significant membership among the London ambulance service.
  The ambulance service is vital for Londoners. It demands and receives enormous dedication and conscientiousness from its staff. They have shown their commitment for many years, working in awful circumstances. They suffer greatly at present because of understaffing, inadequate vehicles and an unaccountable service and many of them do not live to enjoy a long retirement because the stress of the job often causes premature death. They suffer from the stress of the job and from the stress of being called out in an emergency and not knowing whether they will see a fairly minor accident in the home or a terrible tragedy on the roads or railways in which they will be asked to pull children's bodies out of the wreckage. That is the lot of the ambulance workers, who are extremely dedicated people.
  The ambulance service was efficiently and accountably run by the Greater London council. The service was taken away from the council in the health service reorganisation of 1974 and was put under South West Thames regional health authority. It is now attempting to make itself into a trust.
  There is the ludicrous position of the director of the London ambulance service seeming to be remarkably reluctant to meet Members of Parliament, never mind replying to correspondence from Members of Parliament concerning their legitimate fears about the ambulance service. When I met him 18 months ago, he told me that
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  much of the ambulance service was now commercially confidential because of the tendering system. It is nonsense for the director of a major service on which the people of London rely to tell a Member of Parliament, "Sorry, I cannot answer your questions because of commercial confidentiality." That is wholly wrong.
  The London ambulance service has also managed to get rid of £3 million on a computer system that does not work, and that is now the subject of an inquiry. A further £3 million is to be spent on a replacement. The 14th report of the Public Accounts Committee was heavily critical of the performance of the London ambulance service, and rightly so. The improvements that the Committee and London Members have looked for simply have not happened.
  I will give a few facts before giving the Minister sufficient time to reply. I recognise that as a Home Office Minister, it will be difficult for him to answer all the questions about the ambulance service. I hope that he will be good enough to pass on what I have said to his colleagues in the Department of Health who should be able to answer the points.
  In 1990, as an average, 76 per cent. of all emergency 999 calls to the London ambulance service were answered within 14 minutes. The national Orcon standard requires a response time of 95 per cent. within 14 minutes. For the first quarter of 1991, 66 per cent. of such calls were met within 14 minutes, so the situation got worse. In the second quarter, the figure improved slightly to 73 per cent. and in the third quarter, 68 per cent. were answered within 14 minutes. There are 2,000 calls per day, so that means that more than 600 emergency calls a day are not met within the nationally required times.
  The ambulance service may reasonably say that the problem is a product of traffic and other factors. It is indeed a product of traffic, but it is also a product of inadequate vehicles, insufficient staff and insufficient funding for the service. Last weekend, 14 and 15 December, was a terrible weekend for weather. There was heavy fog, icy roads and very dangerous conditions. It is in just such circumstances that the ambulance service is more in demand than at any other time, yet one fifth of the vehicles were off the road because they did not work, because there were no drivers for them or because they were too old.
  Ms. Hoey: Does my hon. Friend agree that not only are the vehicles generally greatly inadequate, but the new vehicles that are being forced on some areas are inadequate in terms of safety for the ambulance personnel driving them? That is especially true in my own area of Brixton.
  Mr. Corbyn: My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. The financial problems of the ambulance service are serious. I understand that some vehicles are now being forced to run for 16 hours a day, which means that there is insufficient time for basic maintenance and repair work on them. The vehicles are being run into the ground.
  In reply to an Adjournment debate on 18 April 1991, which was initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing), the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health announced expenditure of £3·5 million on new vehicles, as reported in column 672 of Hansard. Only 60 have been bought and none has been bought since April. They are not safe vehicles in the opinion of members of the National Union

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  of Public Employees and of the Confederation of Health Service Employees who drive them. They held a meeting yesterday with the Health and Safety Executive so that they could express their concerns. They have two major concerns. First, there is no bulkhead door between the cab and the back of the ambulance. That is dangerous for the person in the back, because in the areas that my hon. Friend and I represent, tragically, attacks on ambulance personnel are common. I deplore and condemn those attacks, but they do occur as a result of drug-taking, drunkenness and so on.
  Secondly, the vehicles have only one stretcher space. Therefore, at a stroke, the purchase of new vehicles has halved the ambulance service's capacity to carry emergency cases. In addition, the transmission system has been changed from automatic gearboxes, which give a smoother run. are easier to drive and are better and safer for patients, to manual gearboxes, which are much more difficult to drive and give passengers a rougher ride. That is important to patients with spinal injuries.
  We are approaching Christmas when there is, tragically, great demand on the ambulance service because the number of accidents increases as a result of drunken driving and so on. I hope that the ambulance service gets through. I hope that it copes. I know that the staff will do their best. I wish that the Government would do their best to fund the ambulance service properly and that the senior management would do their best to get decent vehicles so that the dedication of the staff can be properly rewarded.
  I am tired of hearing complaints after every major festival and holiday in London that the ambulance service could not cope. The ambulance service could cope if it were given the tools with which to do the job properly. We salute the quality of the staff every time there is a major disaster. Let us recognise that dedication and ensure that they have proper equipment to do the job and that we have an accountable service in London once again.
  2.15 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd): I congratulate the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Ms. Hoey) on securing this debate and I am grateful to her for raising the important subject of the provision of fire cover in London. I join her and the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) in paying tribute to the vital work done by the emergency services in London.
  This is a timely occasion for a debate on the fire service in view of the fact that the London fire and civil defence authority has just reached decisions on the future provision of fire cover in the capital and put forward for the approval of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary proposals for reductions in the number of fire-fighting appliances at certain stations and for the closure of Sanderstead fire station.
  The statutory responsibility for providing an effective and efficient fire brigade in London, and thus the responsibility for assessing fire risks and the deployment of resources to meet them, rests with the authority. However, my right hon. Friend is concerned to ensure that fire authorities comply with the nationally recommended minimum standards of fire cover mentioned by the hon. Lady to which I shall come later.
  The fire service in England and Wales costs more than £1 billion per year. Like other local government services,
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  it is funded through revenue support grant and non-domestic rates, which together make up some 85 per cent. of fire authorities' expenditure, and the community charge. The Government are concerned to ensure that the way in which those sums are spent represents good value for money.
  That is why, in 1985, the Home Office invited all fire authorities in England and Wales to review the fire risks in their areas and the resources necessary to meet them. The chief fire officer of the London fire brigade completed his review earlier this year. The proposals in the review were given extensive publicity in an extremely thorough consultation exercise by the authority with the public, London borough councils, adjacent county councils and other relevant organisations. The authority has kept the fire service trade unions, the National Association of Fire Officers and the Fire Brigades Union closely in touch with developments since the review began.
  If my right hon. Friend is to give his approval to those proposals, he will need to be satisfied, on the professional advice of Her Majesty's inspectorate of fire services, that the London fire and civil defence authority will continue to meet the nationally recommended minimum standards of fire cover. He will not be prepared to agree to any reductions that would reduce standards of fire cover below those agreed minima.
  Proposals to close fire stations or to reduce the number of operational fire fighters or fire-fighting appliances can raise important and sensitive local issues. The concerns expressed while the report has been developing and the implications of some proposals for standards of fire cover are well understood by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary who will take those factors into account when deciding whether to approve the authority's proposals. He will also want to allow adequate time for hon. Members to make further representations to him now that the authority has formally submitted its proposals.
  Patterns of fire risk change over time and it is important regularly to reassess them to ensure that fire authorities continue to meet their statutory responsibilities and do so efficiently. I understand the concern about the implications of the recommended changes, but the Home Secretary will not approve reductions that would result in unacceptable levels of public protection.
  The hon. Member for Vauxhall spoke about financing. The fire service in England and Wales costs well over £1 billion each year and the London fire and civil defence authority costs more than £200 million annually. We are anxious to ensure that the fire service, like any other public service, operates efficiently and with sufficient resources. That means ensuring that the resources are accurately targeted to where they are most needed. Fire service resources are largely determined by fire risks, and patterns of risk change. Therefore, the deployment of fire service resources needs to be reviewed regularly.
  The hon. Lady complained about capital restraints on the fire service in London. The fire service share of total local authority standard spending in England in 1992–93 will be 8 per cent. higher than in the present year. The London fire and civil defence authority standard spending assessment for 1991–92 is £226·8 milion. Its provisional standard spending assessment next year is £242·4 million, an increase of 6·9 per cent. That compares with an increase last month in fire fighters' pay, which is the main constituent of fire authorities' expenditure, of 5·6 per cent. The increase for next year is on top of an increase of over

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  16 per cent. for this year. Both those increases have been above the rate of inflation and demonstrate the Government's desire to have an effective fire service.
  Decisions on the total provisions for the fire service took account of additional burdens for fire prevention. The hon. Lady specifically mentioned non-fire services. Such services are provided at the discretion of the fire authority and the hon. Lady was right to say that the SSA distribution formula does not include an indicator for them. The overall resources provided for the fire service allow non-fire services to be carried out extremely well. Authorities may charge for those services, but obviously do not do so when such services are carried out in the course of attending an emergency.
  The hon. Lady spoke about pension increases. That cost is not peculiar to the London authority. We are aware of concern that provision for expenditure on pensions is increasing at a rate higher than that of inflation. Additional pensions burdens were taken into account in reaching decisions on the fire service share of total standard spending. While the Government are always prepared to consider sensible proposals for changes to the standard spending assessment distributional mechanism, we are not convinced that a special indicator for pensions is yet necessary.
  On capital expenditure, the London fire and civil defence authority's basic credit approval for 1992–93 was issued yesterday. It is £8·2 million, 4·1 per cent. above the approval for the current year of £7·9 million. Requirements for additional resources for fire service capital provision have to compete in each year's public expenditure survey with other new requirements, and at a time of continuing pressure on public expenditure it was not possible to allocate any more than this to the London authority. I am aware that the authority hopes to spend more than this next year and increase its capital programme in some of the ways mentioned by the hon. Lady. Basic credit approvals are not the only source of provision for capital expenditure. The authority may decide, in the light of its priorities, to contribute to capital provision from revenue expenditure, and it may use a proportion of any capital receipts.
  We propose also, subject to the views of local authority associations, to issue £5 million additional provision nationally next year, in the form of supplementary credit approvals—for the specific purpose of expenditure on replacement mobilisation and communications systems.
  The hon. Member for Islington, North mentioned risk categories, which were most recently assessed by the joint committee on standards of fire services in 1985. Buildings and complexes that are particularly at risk can be designated special risks, commanding initial attendance higher than that appropriate for the surrounding area.
  There has been a particular request for a change in the formula for urban C risk. The Association of Metropolitan Authorities put to the Home Office a proposal that areas currently designated C risk should be divided into urban C and rural C—both with enhanced
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  attendance standards, but with a requirement for an initial attendance of two appliances to fires in areas of urban C, as against the current requirement for one appliance in eight to 10 minutes.
  That proposal would entail substantial additional resources for the fire service in England and Wales. We are considering that proposal, but the 1985 joint committee concluded that a formal split of the C risk category into two new categories was unnecessary, as 82 per cent. of fire brigades in England and Wales have a policy of mobilising two appliances to property fires in areas of C risk. However, the question of risk level is currently under examination.
  The hon. Member for Islington, North raised the important question of the London ambulance service. The hon. Gentleman acknowledged in this remarks that the Department of Health is in the lead, but I admire the agility with which he properly used the debate to raise the subject. Although the hon. Gentleman very politely gave me notice of the various issues that he might raise in this debate, I had little time in which to acquaint myself with them. I will, however, do as the hon. Gentleman asked, and draw his remarks to the attention of my hon. Friend the Minister for Health.
  I can tell the hon. Gentleman that when the London ambulance service board was established in 1990, it was confronted by a number of serious and pressing issues, including low staff morale following an industrial dispute, acute staff shortages, high absenteeism, top-heavy management, poor industrial relations, an absence of reliable and meaningful management information, and failure to meet recommended standards of service.
  To improve what the London ambulance service itself regarded as a totally unacceptable call answering problem in central ambulance control, the board took steps to improve staffing and the system for dealing with emergency calls. It commissioned a computer-aided dispatch system to speed the handling of and response to emergency calls, and new staffing rotas were arranged to reflect known peak demand times. Management introduced various initiatives to combat absenteeism, and to improve recruitment and retention levels in the service generally. Sickness levels have fallen by nearly 2 per cent. since December 1990, and a further 19 control room staff are being recruited.
  I repeat that I will ensure that the many points raised by the hon. Gentleman on which I cannot comment will reach the ears of my hon. Friend the Minister for Health. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Vauxhall for making possible this debate, and to the hon. Member for Islington, North for extending it.
  It being half-past Two o'clock the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

  Fire and Emergency Services (London)

    BROADCASTING
    Ordered,
    That Mr. Nicholas Baker, Sir Anthony Grant, Mr. Bruce Grocott, Mr. David Harris, Kate Hoey, Mr. Robert G. Hughes, Mr. Charles Kennedy, Mr. John MacGregor, Mr. Humfrey Malins, Mr. Merlyn Rees and Mr. John P. Smith be members of the Select Committee on Broadcasting.—[Mr. Neil Hamilton.]

  Hampton Court Green
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn—[Mr. Neil Hamilton.]
  2.30 pm
  Mr. Toby Jessel: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise the subject of Hampton Court green in my constituency. This has long been a beautiful, cherished and treasured public open space. It is valued by visitors, passers by and residents within my constituency at Hampton Court, Hampton Wick, Hampton Hill, Hampton and surrounding areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Taylor), whose East Molesey constituents nearby enjoy the use of Hampton Court green, asks to be associated with my remarks.
  Hampton Court green is a royal property which is now the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, exercised through its Historic Royal Palaces Agency. There is an increasing tendency to use the green for parking. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has received a petition from local residents, which reads as follows:
  "We the undersigned local residents and members of the public note with deep concern the decision of the Hampton Court administrators to use The Hampton Court green for car parking in connection with commercial ventures at Hampton Court Palace. This use is fast becoming an established practice—with the subsequent deprivation of the local residents and the public at large of the free enjoyment of this long established unspoilt open green space.
  We wish to express our grave fears that, in the absence of any specific assurance to the contrary, the Palace administrators tend increasingly to view The Green as merely an adjunct to Hampton Court Palace with minimal regard to its intrinsic value as a local amenity which enhances this beautiful historic area.
  We consider that such use is not necessary for the efficient and successful management of Hampton Court Palace which is an important local amenity as well as a national institution.
  We therefore call on you to take urgent steps to build into the present policies and terms of reference clear and unmistakeable safeguards to define the permanent status of The Green as an area of public recreation and enjoyment and to prohibit its use at any time for car parking."
  I must declare an interest. For the past 22 years, I have lived on the edge of Hampton Court green. But the fact that I live there does not mean that my neighbours, who are also my constituents and who also live there, should expect any greater or less a service from me as their Member of Parliament in the protection of their environment than any other constituents—for example, if somebody decided to park cars all over Twickenham green. I know that that point will be understood by the House and accepted by the Department of the Environment.
  Government policy is to protect open space, whether in urban or rural areas. That includes greens, village greens and commons. The protection of open space does not just mean keeping buildings off them. It also means upholding their character and keeping them open and free from clutter of any kind. In upholding that Government policy, the Government should set an example to local authorities where the Government themselves own parks, open spaces, commons or greens.
  At Hampton Court green this task has been delegated to the Historic Royal Palaces Agency, but the agency is clearly responsible to Parliament, as set out in its own annual review for 1990–91, which states on page 6:
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  "The Secretary of State for the Environment is accountable to Parliament for the agency's policy, operations and resources."
  There is no doubt whatever that the Government are answerable to Parliament for the management of the green.
  Furthermore, the question of parking on the green cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be said to be merely a matter of day-to-day administrative detail. Whether or not the green is used for parking on a major scale is basic to the whole character and existence of the green.
  I estimate that in the spring and summer of 1990 Hampton Court green was covered with car parking, fairs and their paraphernalia for more than 40 days. That is far too much. My constituents do not accept it; nor do the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher. I do not accept it. It makes a deep inroad into the character of the green, it is in conflict with Government policy, and it ought to be drastically curtailed. The problem is that the Historic Palaces Agency also manages Hampton Court palace. This palace is a great national treasure and a vital part of our national heritage.
  I am aware, Mr. Speaker, that a member of your family is a distinguished real tennis player on Henry VIII's historic court there, that you go to Hampton Court from time to time and that you therefore recognise the great value of Hampton Court palace. The agency has been asked to increase the revenue of the palace and to decrease its enormous running losses. They are exceedingly heavy, due to the fact that Hampton Court palace is a very big and very old building. The agency has also been given responsibility for Hampton Court green.
  Therein lies the difficulty. The green would have been better protected if, like the adjacent Bushey park, it had remained, like the other royal parks, under the royal parks bailiff. As it is, the agency and the palace administration seem to view the green as a satellite to the palace that can be used and even sacrificed in the interests of the palace.
  Unlike other village greens, it has neither the protection of any local authority, as common land, nor the protection of the Department of the Environment, through its royal parks department. When the agency was established it seems to have been given no clear or specific instructions about the protection of the green. Either instructions of that kind should now be given to the agency or the green should be removed from the responsibility of the Historic Royal Palaces Agency and put under the protection of some other part of the Department of the Environment so that its character as a green can be preserved.
  What has angered local residents is that since the agency was set up two or three years ago the green has been used as a public car park for up to 2,000 cars when commercial events to do with the palace have been staged. In July 1990 and July 1991 there were five-day flower shows in Hampton Court park, also known as Home park, Hampton Court, on the Kingston side of the palace. The description "flower show" is a little misleading. It was only about one third to do with flowers, while the other two thirds were devoted to the sale of other bits and pieces connected with gardening.
  Only 5,000 cars were parked in Home park where there is room—out of sight behind walls and closer to the site of the flower show—for very many more cars, provided that the parking is well organised, which this year it was not.

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  The congestion had a severe impact. The parking, as well as the traffic, needlessly damaged the environment of the people who live in the area and who suffered from it.
  In June this year, parking was allowed all over the green for the quincentenary of the birth of King Henry VIII in 1491. Again, the cars should have been parked in Home park. I hope that the Minister will confirm that that was a one-off episode for the green.
  Fairs, however, are traditional, time-honoured and accepted. One expects fairs to take place on greens. That is quite different from using Hampton Court green as a car park for an event being held in a different place. Each year, there are three traditional fairs on the bank holiday Mondays at Easter, Whitsun and the end of August. Each time, the green is covered with fair paraphernalia and clobber for 10 or 11 days. Fairs are allowed to bring all that in on the Monday before, be open for five days from the Friday until the following Tuesday of the bank holiday weekend, and have to move off on the Wednesday.
  Whatever has been allowed in the past, that is far too long. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to request the Historic Royal Palaces Agency to impose a far stricter timetable on the fair proprietors, and then to see it enforced. Although the Historic Royal Palaces Agency sounds like an independent body such as a quango or nationalised board, it is not. It consists of civil servants in the Department of the Environment, to whom certain work has been delegated.
  Next, the so-called craft fair each September is in no sense a traditional fair. There are no roundabouts, no big wheels, no dodgems, no Punch and Judy shows and no skittles. It is a relatively recent addition. It consists of shops on the green. It is not right that a public open space—a village green—should be used to set up shops, whether in parades or tents, and then to excuse it by calling it a "fair". If it continues—I hope that it will not—I hope that it will be most tightly controlled and that controls will be applied and enforced as to the number of days it is open, the number of days on which equipment can stay on the green, the volume of piped music and of announcements, and that shopkeepers setting up shops on the green should not be allowed to park their vehicles on the green at all—certainly not in the chaotic manner which took place this year under the chestnut trees, to the damage of the environment and close to houses where people live.
  I remind my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State of the name of his Department. I want him to tell me exactly what the Department of the Environment intends to do to protect the environment of Hampton Court green.
  Finally, before I sit down, may I be allowed to wish you, Mr. Speaker, and Mrs. Weatherill a very happy Christmas and thank you for all that you do for us all.
  2.42 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tim Yeo): I am delighted to have the opportunity to respond to the debate introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel), in which he has focused on progress and developments at Hampton Court palace and, in particular, on the use of Hampton Court green.
  My hon. Friend is not only well known on both sides of the House and outside as a most vigorous champion of the
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  interests of his constituents but has been extremely energetic in pursuing the points that he has made on the Floor of the House. He has been in consultation with the Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Baroness Blatch, and is therefore already aware of the close attention that my Department has been giving the issues that he raised.
  Hampton Court palace, with its gardens, Home park, to which my hon. Friend referred, and Hampton Court green, is one of the palaces of the Historic Royal Palaces Agency, which was established on 1 October 1989 as an executive agency within my Department and under the Government's "next steps" initiative. "Next steps" agencies are different from Government Departments. They have been designed to give them more freedom in their operations and day-to-day management than would be possible if they remained directly within the functions of a Government Department. Although some of the staff may have been civil servants, it would not be true to say that the agencies are staffed exclusively by civil servants.
  The Historic Royal Palaces Agency was set up with three aims: to improve the experience of visitors to the palaces, to preserve the palaces to the highest possible standards and to provide a more efficient and effective quality of service. Those aims determine the philosophy, approach and action programme of the agency of focusing on three needs: first, the needs of the buildings and estates themselves and the importance of conserving them for future generations; secondly, the needs of today's visitors who expect—rightly—a service of improving quality and a new approach to the presentation of the palaces which is intended to bring them alive in an historically authoritative way; and thirdly, the needs of the taxpayer who, understandably, is looking for improvements in effectiveness and a reduction in the level of public spending on the upkeep of magnificent palaces.
  Since the agency was launched two years ago, significant improvements have been made against all three of those requirements and more are planned for the future. The chief executive, Mr. David Beeton, and his management team have provided a focus for the management of these palaces. Their energy and commitment have set in hand a programme of work more ambitious than has been contemplated for some time. It has all been made possible through the work of the "next steps" philosophy which is one of delegated accountability.
  The aims of the agency are established by Ministers——
  Mr. Jessel: This is all very valuable information to do with the palaces, but my debate is specifically on Hampton Court green. Can the Minister say whether the agency has been given any terms of reference about what it is to do to maintain the green and its character?
  Mr. Yeo: I am coming to the green. As my hon. Friend generously allowed me rather more than my share of the available time, I thought that it would be helpful if I put what I was about to say in the context of the Government's overall strategy for the "next steps" agency, a point on which my my hon. Friend touched when introducing the debate. However, I was about to deal with the green.
  The aims of this agency and others are established by Ministers who remain accountable for them in this House, but the day-to-day responsibility for management

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  decisions—in this case, for the palaces—which are necessary to achieve those aims rest with the chief executive. That is set out in the framework document for historic royal palaces which was published on 1 October 1989.
  I and my colleagues are fully committed to the "next steps" principles of delegated accountability. Local management matters must be left to chief executives who are accountable for them, but I welcome the chance to provide the House with some additional insight into the operations of Hampton Court palace and to respond in particular to my hon. Friend's concerns.
  I shall deal first with the Hampton Court green. I appreciate what a close personal interest my hon. Friend has in the green, living as he does adjacent to it. It is an open space of about 18 hectares. It is bordered by the palace gardens which cover 27 hectares and by Home park which covers 223 hectares and it adjoins Bushey park which covers 445 hectares. Therefore, the neighbourhood is generally supplied with open spaces of various kinds.
  As with all the other areas, the green is subject to the royal parks regulations. It has been managed alongside Hampton Court gardens and Home park to which my hon. Friend has referred. The tarmacked car park which is located on a small part of the green—and has been for many decades—has for some time been used as a coach park and as the overflow car park for Hampton Court palace. As I understand it. my hon. Friend is not objecting to the continued use of that as a car park——
  Mr. Jessel: It is on the site of a former Army barracks. Therefore, it has never been an open space and it should not be quoted in order to justify any other parking on any other part of the green.
  Mr. Yeo: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's warning, but I had no intention of quoting it for that purpose.
  The green has been traditionally used for a variety of temporary functions and events, some of which my hon. Friend mentioned. I believe that a traditional fair—I am not certain whether it has the requisite number of roundabouts or side shows—has been held on the green for up to three times a year since the turn of the century, and dates back to before the agency was established.
  In addition, before the agency was established, an annual craft fair was allowed on the green in 1988. Those two fairs mean that the green is currently used for events on about 39 days in any year. That statistic precedes the agency's creation. Since the establishment of the agency the green has been used for five further days for parking for the international flower show in Home park and for three evenings for parking for a midsummer masquerade held in Hampton Court gardens in June 1991. Of the annual usage, only five days and three evenings have resulted from events organised since the establishment of the agency. I appreciate that there has been an increase over the previous traditional usage.
  Mr. Jessel: I hope that my hon. Friend will not treat the craft fair, which started in 1988, as a traditional usage.
  Mr. Yeo: It is clearly not a traditional usage in the same sense as the other fairs that have been held throughout the century, but it is important in the context of my hon. Friend's concerns about the agency to say that the craft fair started more than a year before the agency was established.
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  The use of Hampton Court and its estate for such events is entirely in line with policy in other royal parks. Parks are for open-air enjoyment and recreation, and can also facilitate programmes of special events such as fun runs and Pavarotti concerts. The use of Hampton Court green for short-term parking is seen as necessary to support those special events at Hampton Court palace and gardens.
  I have noted carefully what my hon. Friend said about restricting parking on the green and assure him that I shall bear in mind the comments which he expressed forcefully. I know that the agency and its management would want to balance the very proper pursuit of revenue-generating activities, which we encourage and which form an important part of their overall objectives, against any activity that may cause widespread concern within the local community.
  The protection of open space, to which my hon. Friend referred, is an important objective of the Government, but it is not the only one. There are some occasions when the temporary use of open space for another purpose, whether parking or anything else, may be an essential means to facilitate additional objectives that the Government also consider high priorities and which enable large numbers of the community to enjoy and share in activities which would otherwise be impossible to stage. I am not absolutely convinced that the additional eight days of usage on top of the 39 days established usage before the agency commenced necessarily constitute the enormous change that I think my hon. Friend may have been suggesting. However, I shall certainly bear his points in mind.
  I think that my hon. Friend asked whether we could reduce the amount of time that the traditional fair, which has run from the turn of the century, spends on the green. It takes a long time to set up and dismantle that fair, but I can assure my hon. Friend that that time has not increased during recent years and is in line with the contract conditions. The agency is not aware of any occasion on which the traditional fair has stayed beyond the time allowed under the contract. Had it been aware of any such instance, it would have taken vigorous steps to ensure that the terms of the contract were met. The three-year contract for the traditional fair has expired and is up for renewal. The agency will take careful account of the health and safety requirements for the inspection of any fairground equipment used and will be seeking to reduce the number of days required to set up and dismantle that fair. As my hon. Friend knows, in response to a request from him, the agency has already reviewed the length of time required for setting up the craft fair and has managed to reduce it by one day this summer.
  As my hon. Friend knows far better than I, most of the use of Hampton Court green is related to the traditional fair, which is provided essentially for the enjoyment and benefit of local residents. My hon. Friend will be sensitive to the likely public reaction to any suggestion that the fair should be entirely discontinued. Other functions and events at the palace account for a few more days' usage and the provision of car parking on the green will continue to be needed for those purposes. I cannot, therefore, hold out to my hon. Friend the prospect of an instruction from the Government requiring those arrangements to end, but, as I have assured him, we will keep an eye on the situation. We believe that those functions and events are central to the core business of the agency—perhaps more so than the

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  traditional fair. The midsummer masquerade organised last summer brought thousands of local people to the palace to enjoy its unique atmosphere and historic gardens, in a way that was consistent with the aims that Ministers have set for the agency. The palace was brought alive on those evenings, which were not only educational but extremely valuable.
  I hope that my hon. Friend will feel that his concerns are being carefully noted. We shall, of course, continue to pay the closest possible attention to any criticisms that he has of the way in which the green is being used and I shall certainly reflect carefully on his comments about the disadvantages of using the green for such purposes. I hope that the green will continue to facilitate—without damage—the enjoyment of activities that would not otherwise take place.
  As this is the last debate before Christmas, my hon. Friend took the opportunity to wish you, Mr. Speaker, and your family a very happy Christmas. We have been debating Hampton Court. Christmas is the one time of the year when, even at the end of the 20th century, some of us may enjoy meals of a style perhaps more traditional in Henry VIII's day, when I understand a feast-day dinner would normally comprise up to 10 courses, commencing with items such as venison pies, baked carp in wine with prunes, followed by boiled mutton, swan, cock, roast boar with a pudding and, finally, cream of almonds, wafers and marzipan. I believe that your personal tastes, Mr. Speaker, are somewhat more ascetic than that, but I am sure that that will in no way detract from the enjoyment that you and your family have during the next three weeks. I wish you and my hon. Friend the compliments of the season and hope that my hon. Friend will he able to enjoy a peaceful stroll across Hampton Court green on Christmas morning without bumping into too many parked cars.
  Mr. Jessel: If it is in order, Mr. Speaker I shall make use of the two minutes that remain to us.
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  I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for his reply and in particular his indication that, when the contracts for the fairground proprietors for the bank holiday fairs come to be renewed, the number of days on which they are allowed to leave their plant on the green could be reduced. That is the only concession that my hon. Friend has made so far.
  On the craft fair, I ought perhaps to have given the Minister notice of my point that the shopkeepers were parking their cars on the green and that that ought to be stopped. Will my hon. Friend say whether he can have that matter looked at to see whether the practice can be curtailed, as it has been causing some annoyance? This year the craft fair was not completely removed on the day on which it ought to have been removed—whatever official letters flying to and fro may have said.
  My hon. Friend the Minister referred to Henry VIII and the consumption of swans. I hope that he will not mention that when he comes to my constituency, although, on other grounds, he will be welcome in view of his very helpful planning decision against the construction of a Marks and Spencer shop in the riverside part of Twickenham earlier this year. I hope that he will keep quiet on the subject of the consumption of swans, which are highly valued along the River Thames and which my constituents do not want to be eaten on Christmas day or any other day of the year.
  Mr. Speaker: Before I adjourn the House for Christmas, I wish, on my account and on behalf of my Deputies, to express my warm thanks to the Officers and Staff of the House who serve us in such a devoted way throughout the year. To the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel), to the Minister and to the Whip, the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton), I express my warm thanks for their good wishes to me, which I return in full measure. I wish them and all Members of the House a very happy Christmas.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Three o'clock, till Monday 13 January 1992, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of 12 December.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Asylum Seekers
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will list the organisations to which the consultative draft of the Asylum Appeals (Procedure) Rules was sent and the dates on which it was sent.

  The Attorney-General
  Copies of the consultation draft of the Asylum Appeals (Procedure) Rules were lodged on 1 November 1991 with the appropriate authorities in both Houses of Parliament and have since then been available to the public generally, upon request, from the Lord Chancellor's Department. I shall write to the hon. Member listing the organisations to which the consultation draft has been sent.

  Murder (Provocation Defence)
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Attorney-General what recent representations he has received about the use of provocation as a defence in murder cases involving women.

  The Attorney-General
  Any representations received by me about this subject would be referred to the Home Secretary since he has policy responsibility for the substantive criminal law.

  A full list of representations received and treated in this manner could be produced only at disproportionate cost, by searching all correspondence.

  Immigration Appeals
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General what is the average time between(a) a request for a hearing date and (b) a hearing date being set for immigration appeals in (i) Leeds and (ii) other immigration appeals centres in the United Kingdom.

  The Attorney-General
  The average time between a request for a hearing date and a hearing date being set at the individual centres of the immigration appellate authorities (IAA) is currently as follows:

  Place

  Time

  Leeds

  7 months

  Thanet House, London

  3–4 weeks

  Harmondsworth

  1–2 weeks

  Manchester

  1–2 weeks

  Birmingham

  3 months

  Glasgow

  3 months

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General what action is being taken to reduce delays in hearing immigration appeals in(a) Leeds and (b) other immigration centres in the United Kingdom.

  The Attorney-General
  The Lord Chancellor's Department plans to make an additional hearing room 320
  available early in 1992 at the Leeds centre of the immigration appellate authorities (IAA) for the hearing of immigration appeals. This will enable the adjudicators at Leeds to sit more frequently and so reduce the current waiting times for cases to come before them. The Lord Chancellor's Department will also be exploring the feasibility of immigration appeals being heard at other locations in Leeds to help reduce the current backlog of cases.

  The Lord Chancellor's Department has plans to increase the number of sittings by adjudicators in 1992 at all of the hearing centres of the IAA and the number of staff will be increased. These measures will help the IAA to tackle more effectively their rising workload. Furthermore, a multi-terminal case-tracking computer system will be operational by January 1992. This will enable the IAA to monitor more accurately and frequently the progress of appeals.

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General what is the average delay between the receipt of immigration appeal papers, received in London from British overseas posts, being forwarded to the representatives of the parties.

  The Attorney-General
  Upon receipt of immigration appeal papers from a British overseas post, the IAA is usually able to dispatch copies of the case papers to the parties' representatives in this country within two weeks.

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General how many(a) staff and (b) adjudicators are retained in Leeds and other immigration appeal centres in the United Kingdom; and what proposals there are to increase staff and adjudicators, both part time and full time.

  The Attorney-General
  The staff and adjudicators currently in post at the individual hearing centres of the immigration appellate authorities are as follows:

  Adjudicators

  Hearing centres

  Staff

  Full-time

  Part-time

  Leeds

  8

  1

  13

  Thanet House

  64

  7

  19

  Harmondsworth1

  10

  3

  10

  Manchester

  5

  1

  11

  Birmingham

  8½

  2

  10

  Glasgow

  1½

  —

  5

  1 Includes Belfast and Cardiff.

  The Lord Chancellor's Department plans to recruit additional staff during 1992 and to deploy part-time adjudicators more frequently.

  Treaty of Rome
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will list all items of United Kingdom legislation which have been or are being subjected to legal challenge in the European Court(a) on the grounds of an alleged conflict with article 30 of the treaty of Rome, (b) on the grounds of an alleged conflict with another article of the treaty or (c) on some other grounds, together with the date on which each challenge was instituted and the date of the court decision.

  The Attorney-General
  The information is not readily available. I will reply to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Sunday Trading
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will list the occasions, since 1 November 1991, on which he has made official statements or appeals covering the attitude which retailers should adopt towards the laws on Sunday trading.

  The Attorney-General
  It is not my responsibility to advise retailers on the attitude that they should adopt towards the laws on Sunday trading, so I have not made any official statements or appeals about this.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Special Needs
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will specify the performance indicators to be used to measure the quality of education for pupils with special educational needs in England and Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Fallon
  This is a matter for local education authorities, which have duties under the Education Act 1981 to ensure that provision is made to meet pupils' special educational needs.

  GCSE
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give the total number of pupils in the United Kingdom who sat GCSE examinations in the years for which figures are available.

  Mr. Eggar
  The number of pupils who had attempted GCSE in England by the age of 16 in at least one subject in the academic year 1988–89 and 1989–90 were as follows:

  Total 16-year-olds

  Those attempting GCSE at age of 16 or earlier

  1988–89

  619,800

  581,300

  1989–90

  582,100

  544,400

  The figures for Scotland and Wales are the responsibility of my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales.

  Special Educational Needs
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what action he proposes to take to ensure that publication of examination results will not deter schools from accepting pupils with special educational needs on to their rolls;

  (2) how he proposes to publicise the achievements of pupils with special educational needs in non-examined courses and public examinations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  It is my right hon. and learned Friend's intention that the statutory requirements governing the publication of schools' examination results should apply equally to all pupils, including those with special educational needs. This accords with the Government's322
  policy that pupils with special educational needs should be integrated as far as possible into ordinary educational provision, subject to the conditions set out in section 2 of the Education Act 1981 in respect of those pupils with statements of special educational needs.

  The achievements of pupils with special educational needs will not always be poorer than their peers; some of these pupils are academically very able. It is right that their results should be published in the same way as those of all other children.

  There is no reason to expect that the publication of examination results will deter schools from accepting pupils with special educational needs; indeed, under the law only selective grammar schools are allowed to discriminate on grounds of ability between applicants for places.

  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give the total number of pupils with special educational needs in the United Kingdom who sat GCSE examinations in the years for which figures are available.

  Mr. Eggar
  The information requested is not available centrally for pupils with statements of educational need in England. The figures for Scotland and Wales are the responsibility of my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales.

  Inspectors' Reports
  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many Her Majesty's Inspectorate reports on average, per annum, are intended solely for internal readership by his Department.

  Mr. Eggar
  This information is not available centrally.

  LINC Project
  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has now received the Her Majesty's Inspectorate report on the progress of the language in the national curriculum programme; and if he proposes to publish it.

  Mr. Eggar
  The Her Majesty's Inspectorate report is an interim document intended for internal use. It has not yet been seen by my right hon. and learned Friend.

  Primary Education
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what assessment he has made of the change in standards of reading and literacy in primary schools since 1979; and to what causes he attributes such change.

  Mr. Eggar
  There is at present insufficient evidence on which to base reliable conclusions about changes in the reading standards of younger primary pupils over the past decade. However, the introduction of the national curriculum and its associated testing arrangements at ages seven and 11 will provide reliable information for the future. My right hon. and learned Friend yesterday announced the results from the first round of these tests for seven-year-olds in 1991.

  School Assessments
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what qualifications he expects to be possessed by any team of inspectors engaged in the assessment of a school in his proposed arrangements.

  Mr. Eggar
  Under the arrangements proposed in the Education (Schools) Bill, it will be for Her Majesty's chief inspector of schools to determine whether applicants are fit to lead inspection teams as registered inspectors. It will be for registered inspectors to assemble teams with the appropriate qaulifications and experience, taking account of any conditions imposed or guidance offered by the chief inspector.

  Nursery Education
  Sir Ian Gilmour
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science, further to the reply to the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham of 29 November,Official Report, column 700, if he will publish figures showing the numbers of free or subsidised places for children under statutory school age in nursery schools or similar in each country of the European Community; and if he will also show the numbers of places as precentages of the numbers of children in the relevant age group in each country.

  Mr. Fallon
  Information is not available centrally, in the form requested. The latest available participation rates in pre-compulsory schooling are given in the table.

  Participation in pre-primary education by age group, 1988

  Percentage of age group

  Country

  Age at which compulsory schooling starts

  Education 3 to 5

  1Day care 3 to 5

  Belgium

  6

  96

  —

  France

  6

  99

  —

  Germany (Fed. Rep.)

  6

  64

  —

  Ireland

  6

  51

  214

  Italy

  6

  76

  —

  Luxembourg3

  6

  65

  —

  Netherlands

  5

  66

  217

  Spain

  6

  71

  —

  United Kingdom

  5

  64

  427

  Sources:

  Table AA: Education Statistics for the United Kingdom.

  1Possible overlap with the education data. It is not advisable, therefore, to combine the two rates.

  2

  3

  41987. DES estimate avoiding double counting.

ENVIRONMENT

  Business Rates
  Mr. Michael Spicer
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what account will be taken in determining property values for the purposes of the uniform business rate and the council tax of the recent fall in the market price of property.

  Mr. Portillo
  New non-domestic rateable values will come into force on 1 April 1995. It is proposed that these rateable values be based on market rents as at 1 April 1993.
  324
  The valuation of domestic properties for the council tax is now under way. Properties will be valued on the basis of open market capital values as at 1 April 1991.

  Rates (Newcastle)
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what was, in 1991–92 prices,(a) the value of rate support grant paid to Newcastle city council in every year since 1979–80, and revenue support grant since 1990 and (b) the value of non-domestic rate revenue received by the city council in each year since 1979–80.

  Mr. Key
  The available information is as follows:

  Rate Support Grant £ million at 1991–92 prices

  Non-domestic rate revenue £ million at 1991–92 prices

  1979–80

  122·1

  n/a

  1980–81

  1122·6

  n/a

  1981–82

  288·5

  n/a

  1982–83

  64·6

  n/a

  1983–84

  67·5

  n/a

  1984–85

  62·6

  n/a

  1985–86

  358·0

  n/a

  1986–87

  27·0

  107·7

  1987–88

  54·7

  93·0

  1988–89

  68·4

  82·3

  1989–90

  64·7

  84·7

  Revenue Support Grant

  5Receipts from NDR pool

  1990–91

  485·5

  62·7

  1991–92

  75·2

  71·9

  Note:

  The information given is not available on a comparable basis for all years.

  1In 1979–80 and 1980–81, no Rate Support Grant (RSG) payments were made to Metropolitan County Council and Newcastle's RSG was correspondingly higher in those years.

  2 In 1981–82 to 1985–86 inclusive, RSG payments were made to Metropolitan Counties (and other upper tier authorities) and Newcastle's RSG was correspondingly lower.

  3 In April 1986, the Metropolitan County Councils were abolished and arrangements for paying grant changed accordingly.

  4 In April 1990, the new local authority finance system was introduced and Revenue Support Grant replaced Rate Support Grant as the main Central Government grant to local authorities. The 1990–91 figure is for Revenue Support Grant after the Safety Net Payment.

  5Under the local government finance system introduced in 1990, the level of Revenue Support Grant is affected, inter alia, by the amount of non-domestic rates distributed from the national pool. The decrease in non-domestic rate receipts between 1989–90 and 1990–91 was largely compensated for by the increase in Rate/Revenue Support Grant.

  Emissions
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what were the emissions in the years 1970 to 1979, 1980 to 1989 and 1990; and what are the projected figures for 1991 to 2005 for(a) the United Kingdom, (b) Wales, (c) Scotland and (d) Northern Ireland for (i) industrial carbon dioxide, (ii) land use change carbon dioxide, (iii) non-agricultural methane and (iv) agricultural methane.
  325
  Mr. Baldry
  Emission estimates for carbon dioxide and methane, covering the preceding 10 years, are published annually in the "Digest of Environmental Protection and Water Statistics", copies of which are placed in the Library of the House. Estimates for earlier years are available from Warren Spring laboratory which maintain the national emissions inventory on behalf of the Department. Data for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland separately and for carbon dioxide emissions due to land-use change are not available. Total emission estimates for the years 1970 to 1979 and 1980 to 1989 and for 1990 are as follows:

  1970–79

  1980–89

  1990

  Industrial CO21 (electricity supply, refineries and other industry)

  1,179

  967

  296

  Non agricultural methane3

  28·3

  33·5

  4—

  Agricultural methane3

  11·9

  11·7

  4—

  1 Expressed as millions of tonnes of carbon emitted.

  2 Provisional.

  3 Expressed as millions of tonnes of methane emitted.

  4 Not yet available.

  Projections for carbon dioxide and methane emissions were set out in energy paper No. 58 "UK Country Study for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Response Strategies Working Group Energy and Industry Sub-Group", October 1989, copies of which are in the Library of the House. I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secrtary of State for Energy to my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) on 6 December 1991, Official Report, column 258, for the latest projections for CO2 emissions.

  The Government have set a target, if other countries take similar action, of returning emissions of CO2 to 1990 levels by 2005 and is taking steps to reduce emissions of methane.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many discharges of chemicals into the Merseyside environment have been notified to his Department in the past 12 months; if he will list these and the toxic chemicals involved; if he will specify whether the discharges were into the air, water, or land; whether he will extend the provisions of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 to ensure that annual levels of emissions are monitored and declared; and whether he will require disclosure of information about emissions to his Department.

  Mr. Baldry
  Dangerous occurances involving uncontrolled or accidental releases of chemicals must be notified to the Health and Safety Executive. Individual authorised releases of chemicals are not notified to my Department. However, the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and the Water Resources Act 1991 provide for monitoring information about releases to the environment which are reported to or obtained by the relevant enforcing authority or the National Rivers Authority to be placed in public registers.

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans his Department has to include information on historical emissions of the following greenhouse gases(a) industrial carbon dioxide, (b) land-use change carbon dioxide, (c) non-agricultural
  326
  methane and (d) agricultural methane in his negotiations on the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  Questions relating to past, present and future emissions of all greenhouse gases are included among the issues covered by the preparatory committee for the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development.

  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what methodology he uses when assessing net greenhouse gas emissions in the United Kingdom in relation to gross emissions.

  Mr. Baldry
  Net greenhouse gas emissions are not currently estimated for the United Kingdom on a routine basis. To do so will require the development of methods for quantitatively assessing activities, such as afforestation, which remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere. Work to develop such methods is proceeding within the Department's own research programme and internationally through the work of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

  Poll Tax
  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what are his Department's estimates on how much local authorities have spent on publicity and advertising in connection with the poll tax.

  Mr. Key
  My Department has made no such estimates.

  Global Warming
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what amount has been spent to date on the global warming campaign in the press.

  Mr. Baldry
  The campaign, "Helping the Earth Begins at Home", which is being conducted jointly by my Department and the Department of Energy, placed advertisements in national newspapers between 5 November and 1 December 1991. The net cost of the advertisements was £393,045. This figure includes media buying and agency fees.

  Incinerators
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many incinerators there are in the United Kingdom which are capable of dealing with(a) hazardous and (b) toxic wastes; what is the total annual capacity of these plants; and what is the annual production of these wastes in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Baldry
  Waste containing substances hazardous to life are classed as special wastes in the United Kingdom and local authority records showed 2·315 million tonnes arising for disposal in 1989–90. However, high temperature incineration of special wastes can take place within a wide range of factory premises, where so authorised, and special wastes dealt with in-house are not recorded. United Kingdom merchant incinerators available for disposal contract have a total annual capacity of about 200,000 tonnes and are:—

  ReChem at Fawley, Hampshire and Pontypool, Gwent

  Cleanaway at Ellesmere Port, Cheshire

  Leigh Industrial Services at Killamarsh, Sheffield

  327
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what information he has as to the number and capacity of incinerators capable of dealing with hazardous and toxic wastes which are(a) under construction and (b) to be constructed over the next five years; what he expects the total annual capacity of those plants and the existing plants to be at the end of that time; and what are his projections as to the annual production of these wastes in the United Kingdom in (i) five years and (ii) 2000.

  Mr. Baldry
  Industry could have a variety of incinerator proposals at various stages of consideration. There is no central record of these and it would not be possible to say what the annual capacity of proposed plant might be until such proposals become definitely operative. Planning proposals for merchant incinerators in England and Wales of which the Secretary of State is aware are those currently before him for decisions:—Ocean Environment, Seal Sands, Cleveland Northumbrian Water/ITE, Portrack, Cleveland Northumbrian Water/ITE, East Howdon, Tyne and Wear. It is not possible to provide forward projections of any waste arisings which might he dealt with at existing or new plant.

  Skin Cancer
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will obtain from the United Nations Environment Programme for his departmental library a copy of the panel study, chaired by Dr. Jan van der Leun of Utrecht university, on the risks of skin cancer increases resulting from ozone depletion.

  Mr. Baldry
  The departmental library holds a copy of the 1989 report of the United Nations Environment Programme's environmental effects panel, chaired by Dr. J. van der Leun. The most recent environmental effects assessment is in preparation and is expected to be published in the next few months. Copies will be obtained for my Department.

  Radiological Emergencies
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy to communicate to the public and all relevant emergency service personnel information, the nature of any radiological emergency, its possible effects and emergency counter-measures.

  Mr. Baldry
  My Department has lead responsibility for the response to radiological emergencies resulting from overseas nuclear accidents. The arrangements for communicating details of the accident, its possible effects and counter-measures are set out in the HMSO booklet, "The National Response Plan and Radioactive Incident Monitoring Network (RIMNET). Phase 1", copies of which have been placed in the Library of the House.

  Energy Tax
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what consultations he has had with his opposite numbers in the other European Community member states regarding the Commission's proposals for a carbon tax or energy tax; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the 328
  Environment to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) on 17 December 1991, Official Report, column 105.

  Building Maintenance (Date of Return)
  Mr. Jopling
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, what further action he proposes to take against the failure of Copeland borough council to make the statutory rate of return on building maintenance work undertaken in 1989–90.

  Mr. Key
  My right hon. Friend has given careful consideration to the response of Copeland borough council to the notice served on it on 9 July 1991, and has today given a direction under section 19B of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 in respect of building maintenance work. The effect of the direction is to preclude the council from undertaking works of maintenance other than emergency work and works to the properties in the council's ownership.

  Mr. Burt
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what further action he has decided to take against the failure of Rochdale metropolitan borough council to make the statutory rate of return on its building maintenance work in 1989–90.

  Mr. Key
  My right hon. Friend has given careful consideration to the response of Rochdale metropolitan borough council to the notice served on the authority on 7 February 1991, and has today given a direction under section 19B of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 in respect of building maintenance work. The effect of this direction is to preclude the council from undertaking works of building maintenance other than emergency work and works to properties in the council's ownership. It also permits the authority to undertake a range of small building maintenance works with an individual value of less than £25,000.

  Ordnance Survey (Corporate Plan)
  Mr. Janman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to publish the Ordnance Survey corporate plan for 1992 to 1995.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Ordnance Survey corporate plan has been published today and I shall arrange for copies to be placed in the Library of the House.

  EC Environmental Legislation
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list details of each of the cases in which the EC is taking action against the United Kingdom Government over alleged non-implementation of EC environmental legislation.

  Mr. Baldry
  [holding answer 12 December 1991]: The European Commission has made applications to the European Court of Justice against the United Kingdom for alleged non-compliance with EC environmental legislation in the following cases:

  Case 337/89 concerning various aspects of the implementation of directive 80/778/EEC on the quality of water for human consumption.

  Case 56/90 concerning implementation of directive 76/169/EEC on the quality of bathing water at Blackpool, Southport and Formby.

  329
  The court has not yet issued a judgment in either case.

  In addition, the Commission has delivered reasoned options under article 169 of the treaty of Rome to the United Kingdom in the following cases:

  Case 211/89 concerning implementation of directive 80/779/EEC on air quality limit values and guide values for sulphur dioxide and suspended particulates.

  Case 212/86 concerning implementation of directive 82/884/EEC on a limit value for lead in air.

  Case 187/87 concerning compliance with directive 79/409/EEC on the conservation of wild birds in connection with the construction of a ski tow in part of a Site of Special Scientific Interest at Glas Maol, Glenshec, Scotland.

  Case 354/88 concerning compliance with directive 80/68/EEC on the protection of groundwater against pollution caused by certain dangerous substances in connection with discharges from a waste depot in Pakefield, Suffolk.

  Case 26/88 concerning compliance with directive 79/409/ EEC on the conservation of wild birds and Commission directive 85/411 /EEC replacing Annex I of directive 79/409/EEC in connection with the designation of habitats and other protection measures.

  Case 387/87 concerning the application of directive 80/779/EEC on air quality limit values and guide values for sulphur dioxide and suspended particulates in Sunderland.

  Case 147/90 concerning compliance with directive 85/337/EEC on assessment of the effects of certain public and private projects on the environment in connection with the disposal of waste material at Outlands Head Quarry, Derbyshire.

  Chlorofluorocarbons
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the chlorine loading potential of all CFCs and HCFCs for the time intervals of 10, 20 and 50 years.

  Mr. Baldry
  (pursuant to his answer, 10 December 1991, c. 363]: Chlorine loading potentials, calculated on a steady state emission basis, have been published in report No. 20 of the World Meteorological Organisation Global Ozone Research and Monitoring Project, "Scientific Assessment of Stratospheric Ozone: 1989," as follows:

  Species

  Chlorine loading potentials

  CFC-11

  1·0

  CFC-12

  1·5

  CFC-113

  1·11

  CFC-114

  1·8

  CFC-115

  2·0

  HFC-22

  0·14

  HCFC-123

  0·016

  HCFC-124

  0·04

  HFC-125

  0·0

  HFC-134a

  0·0

  HCFC-141b

  0·10

  HCFC-142b

  0·14

  HFC-143a

  0·0

  HFC-152a

  0·0

  CCl4

  1·0

  CH31CCl3

  0·11

  The Montreal protocol scientific assessment, due to be published early next year may provide some time-dependent values for either chlorine loading potential or the related ozone depletion potential.

CIVIL SERVICE

  Civil Service College
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service (1) what is the annual cost of running the Civil Service college at Sunningdale Park, Ascot; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) if he will consider relocating the Civil Service college to the north of England; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Renton
  These are operational matters for the Civil Service college and I have asked the chief executive to reply directly to my hon. Friend.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what plans he has to make places available at the Civil Service college for the induction of new Members after the general election; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Renton
  In 1988 the college arranged two briefing seminars on the civil service for hon. Members new to the House. I shall be delighted to ask the chief executive to make similar arrangements for new Members after the next general election, if there is sufficient demand. This will provide a welcome opportunity for the college to extend its already excellent reputation.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Free Markets
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department takes to promote free markets in the countries to which United Kingdom aid is sent.

  Mrs. Chalker
  We promote free markets through focusing our aid on support for economic reforms and sound policies, agreed with the IMF and the World bank, designed to create the environment in which private enterprise and initiative can flourish. We are ready to provide help with privatisation. The Commonwealth Development Corporation invests directly in commercially viable projects in the private sector.

  Kenya
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Government of Kenya on freedom of access and movement of Somalis in Kenya; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Chalker
  The Government have made no such representations. In our exchanges with the Government of Kenya. we have focused on the broader issue of respect for the human rights of all Kenyan citizens. We recognise that Kenya has faced a serious problem dealing with an influx of non-Kenyan Somali refugees and Somali bandits operating from outside her borders.

  Somalia
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the recent fighting in Somalia.

  Mrs. Chalker
  On Wednesday 18 December I issued the following statement:
  331
  "The British Government is deeply concerned at the continued fighting in the Somali capital, Mogadishu. Apart from the senseless destruction of the city, there arc distressing reports of heavy civilian casualties caused by indiscriminate shelling. The British Government particularly deplores the recent shooting of aid workers and the failure of those in charge of the warring factions to ensure that medical and relief supplies can safely enter the port and be distributed to innocent civilians.
  Along with its European Community partners, the United Kingdom has already called on all parties to reach a peaceful negotiated settlement. It reiterates that call and strongly urges all concerned, including the elders of the clans in Mogadishu, to implement an immediate ceasefire which will permit aid agencies to attend to the desperate needs of the Somali people. It appeals to all protagonists in this conflict to put an end to the iolence."

  Development Co-operation (Treaty of Rome)
  Mr. Jacques Arnold
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the inclusion of a text on development co-operation in the treaty of Rome, as agreed at the European Council in Maastricht.

  Mrs. Chalker
  I am pleased that for the first time the objectives of Community policy in development cooperation will be set out in the treaty. We welcome the aims of fostering sustainable economic and social development, especially in the most disadvantaged developing countries; integrating them into the world economy; alleviating poverty; and consolidating democracy, human rights and the rule of law.

  The text recognises the complementary nature of EC and bilateral aid programmes with emphasis on co-ordination and consultation. The United Kingdom has consistently supported such moves in order to enhance the efficient use of EC aid resources.

  Aid Budget
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs in how many and in which cases arms deals have been linked to the overseas aid budget.

  Mrs. Chalker
  United Kingdom aid is provided in support of sustainable development and to alleviate poverty in developing countries. There is no question of linking aid and arms "deals".

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Emigration
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what has been the net emigration of people from Northern Ireland over the past 10 years, giving a breakdown by age group.

  Mr. Hanley
  The information is as follows:

  Year

  Total

  Under 1

  15–44

  45–64

  65 and over

  1980–81

  6,100

  1,049

  4,489

  269

  293

  1981–82

  9,900

  1,327

  7,650

  710

  213

  1982–83

  5,300

  1,360

  3,616

  191

  133

  1983–84

  4,000

  809

  2,893

  180

  188

  1984–85

  4,500

  328

  4,512

  1+ 193

  1+ 147

  1985–86

  3,600

  138

  3,578

  1+ 52

  1+ 64

  1986–87

  5,900

  995

  4,893

  60

  1+ 46

  332

  Year

  Total

  Under 1

  15–44

  45–64

  65 and over

  1987–88

  7,900

  857

  7,237

  1+ 42

  1+ 152

  1988–89

  6,400

  877

  5,726

  1+ 57

  1+ 146

  1989–90

  4,600

  1+ 104

  5,362

  1+ 323

  1+ 335

  1 Net inflow.

  Figures are derived from the mid-year estimates of population which cover the period 1 July in each year to 30 June in the following year.

  Capital Expenditure
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what capital projects in the areas for which he has responsibility, either directly or through the Eastern health hoard, have been postponed by the recently announced capital expenditure moratorium.

  Mr. Hanky
  No capital works projects in the Eastern board's area have been postponed as a result of the moratorium.

  Replacement of the ambulance service radio communications network in the four boards has been postponed and the installation of equipment costing about £0·5 million in the Eastern board's ambulance control centre will therefore be delayed.

  Replacement of aging medical equipment at a number of the board's hospitals, for which £2·1 million had been earmarked, may have to be postponed. Purchase of special high-cost medical equipment, for which £1·75 million had been earmarked, may also have to be deferred.

  Heart Bypass Operations
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people in Northern Ireland are on the national health service waiting lists for heart bypass operations; and what steps he is taking to reduce the period of waiting.

  Mr. Hanley
  I am advised by the Eastern health and social services hoard that at 30 November 1991 there were 758 people in Northern Ireland waiting for heart bypass operations.

  The recent completion of the.£1·5 million extension to the cardiac recovery area at the Royal Victoria hospital will permit an increase in the number of operations and I understand that the RVH has advertised for additional staff to support the extra workload. In addition health and social services boards are actively considering purchasing further operations from outside Northern Ireland. The Western board has already taken an initiative this year in arranging to buy additional cardiac operations for its resident population from hospitals in London.

  Benefits
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what would be(a) the first year and (b) the full-year cost of raising one-parent benefit and widowed mother's allowance by (i) £0·34 and (ii) £0·36 for (1) 1991–92 and (2) 1992–93, (x) including increases in means-tested benefits, and (y) without increases in means-tested benefits, in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Hanley
  The gross costs of increasing one-parent benefit, widowed mother's allowance and income-related
  333
  benefit by these amounts for each week in 1991–92 and 1992–93 are given in the table. It is not possible to estimate what the costs would be without increases in income-related benefits.

  Benefit

  Increase per week

  1991–92 £

  1992–93 £

  One Parent Benefit

  34p

  468,000

  488,000

  Widowed Mothers Allowance

  34p

  58,000

  55,000

  One Parent Benefit

  36p

  496,000

  517,000

  Widowed Mothers Allowance

  36p

  61,000

  58,000

  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what would be(a) the first year and (b) the full year cost of raising one-parent benefit and widowed mother's allowance by 32p (i) for 1991–92 and (ii) 1992–93, (1) including increases in means-tested benefits and (2) without increases in means-tested benefits, in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Hanley
  [holding answer 16 December 1991]: The gross costs of increasing one-parent benefit, widowed mother's allowance and income-related benefits by this amount for each week in 1991–92 and 1992–93 are given in the table. It is not possible to estimate what the costs would be without increases in income-related benefits.

  Benefit

  Increase

  1991–92

  1992–93

  per week

  £

  £

  One Parent Benefit

  32p

  441,000

  459,000

  Widowed Mothers Allowance

  32p

  54,000

  52,000

  State Earnings-related Pension
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will estimate the total cost to the national insurance fund in a full year in(a) 1991–92 and (b) 1992–93 of the 2 per cent. banded earnings offered as an incentive to opt out of SERPs, in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Hanley
  The information is as follows:

  2 per cent. Incentives in respect of personal pensions and 2 per cent. incentives for contracted-out schemes

  Northern Ireland (£ million)

  Paid in year

  In respect of year

  Personal pensions

  New schemes

  Total

  1991–92

  1990–91

  11·9

  2·4

  14·3

  11989–90

  0·2

  0·2

  0·4

  Total

  12·1

  2·6

  14·7

  1992–93

  1991–92

  13·6

  3·1

  16·7

  11990–91

  0·3

  0·1

  0·4

  Total

  13·9

  3·2

  17·1

  1 And earlier.

  Criminal Injuries Compensation
  Mr. Janman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has for changes in the thresholds for criminal injuries compensation claims under the Criminal Injuries (Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1988.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  My right hon. Friend intends in the near future to bring forward an order under article 23 of the 1988 order to raise the general lower limit for criminal 334
  injuries compensation claims from £400 to £1,000 and to raise the lower limit for nervous shock claims in the same proportion from £1,000 to £2,500

  Public Expenditure, Strangford
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland which projects by the Eastern health and social services area board in the constituency of Strangford are now delayed by the moratorium on public expenditure.

  Mr. Hanley
  [holding answer 19 December 1991 ]: None.

PRIME MINISTER

  Sunday Trading
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Prime Minister what response he has made to the letter of 6 November from the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, the Chief Rabbi and the Moderator of the Free Church Federal Council asking him to make a public appeal to retail companies to obey the existing law on Sunday trading.

  The Prime Minister
  It is not my practice to release such information. I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) on 28 November at column 1066.

  New Zealand (Royal Navy Visits)
  Mr. Harris
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his policy regarding Royal Navy visits to New Zealand.

  The Prime Minister
  Following the Defence Secretary's announcement in September that our ships would not carry tactical nuclear weapons in normal circumstances, the New Zealand Prime Minister has agreed that there is now no reason for British warships not to visit New Zealand. The timing of any possible future visit by a British ship to New Zealand remains to be decided in the light of operational needs.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  Racehorse Breeding
  Sir Eldon Griffiths
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the conclusions of the ECOFIN meeting on 12 June 1991 are applicable to the British racehorse breeding industry.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  Yes. The conclusions apply to all industries of EC member states.

  Sir Eldon Griffiths
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will introduce value added tax rates on bloodstock sales similar to those charged in France on the basis of item 6 (Agricultural Inputs) in ECOFIN's list of services on which reduced value added tax rates may be charged.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  Discussions on which goods and services will attract a reduced rate of VAT after 1992 are presently taking place in Brussels and no conclusions have been reached. Until these discussions are complete, it will
  335
  not be known whether any EC member states will be able to introduce or keep a reduced rate for bloodstock. The Commission's current view is that racehorses do not fall within the list of goods and services which will qualify for a reduced rate of VAT.

  Sir Eldon Griffiths
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the stated policy of the European Commission as regards whether the breeding of racehorses is an agricultural activity for the purposes of levying value added tax.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  The European Commission views the breeding, rearing and care of all animals, including racehorses, as an agricultural activity falling within the activities which can be included in an agricultural flat rate scheme. The Commission's current view is that racehorses do not fall within the list of goods and services which will quality after 1992 for a reduced rate of VAT.

  VAT
  Mr. Bill Michie
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the effect of the Maastricht treaties on the rates of value added tax which may be levied in the United Kingdom.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  They have no effect.

  Tax Allowances and Reliefs
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what would be(a) the first year and (b) the full-year revenue effect if all tax allowances and reliefs except the single person's allowance were restricted to the basic rate (i) in 1991–92 and (ii) in 1992–93, in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, giving the revenue from each separately and the total.

  Mr. Maude
  It is estimated that at 1991–92 levels of income the yield, in a full year, from restricting all tax allowances and reliefs—except the personal allowance—to the basic rate of tax would be about £900 million. The corresponding provisional figure for 1992–93 is £950 million under the illustrative assumption of 4 per cent. increases in allowances and the basic rate limit from table 4·2 of the autumn statement 1991.

  The combined effect of restricting these allowances and reliefs to the basic rate is greater than the sum of the effects of restricting each component separately. This is due to the cumulative effect of bringing more people into higher rate tax. For 1991–92 the estimated yields from the main components individually are:

  £ million

  All allowances except the personal allowance

  300

  Occupational pension contributions

  250

  Personal pension contributions

  150

  The effect on receipts in the first year would depend on the administrative arrangements for the restrictions.

  It is not possible to provide a detailed breakdown for the components in respect of 1992–93 with acceptable accuracy.

  Bus Companies
  Mr. Fry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he is considering to encourage bus companies to be able to purchase new vehicles.

  Mr. Mellor
  [holding answer on 19 December 1991]: No steps are being considered at present to encourage bus companies to be able to purchase new vehicles.

  Football Pools
  Mr. Lawrence
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish the rates of levy for football pools and the amount received by the Consolidated Fund, in 1991 prices, for each year since 1961.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  [holding answer on 19 December 1991]: The table gives the rate of pool betting duty and the amount paid to the Exchequer between 1961 and 1991. All figures are approximately indexed to 1991 prices.

  Amount paid

  Duty rates

  (£'000s)

  per cent

  1961–62

  371,255

  30

  1962–63

  295,347

  33

  1963–64

  309,418

  33

  1964–65

  292,940

  331

  252

  1965–66

  289,592

  25

  1966–67

  293,494

  25

  1967–68

  276,346

  25

  1968–69

  314,464

  253

  33⅓4

  1969–70

  349,898

  33⅓

  1970–71

  320,068

  33⅓

  1971–72

  400,977

  33⅓

  1972–73

  417,410

  33⅓

  1973–74

  393,714

  33⅓

  1974–75

  407,398

  40

  1975–76

  353,823

  40

  1976–77

  332,827

  40

  1977–78

  317,320

  40

  1978–79

  309,207

  40

  1979–80

  307,001

  40

  1980–81

  304,562

  40

  1981–82

  306,240

  40

  1982–83

  323,811

  42½

  1983–84

  318,092

  42½

  1984–85

  322,085

  42½

  1985–86

  328,178

  42½

  1986–87

  343,698

  42½

  1987–88

  360,045

  42½

  1988–89

  342,061

  42½

  1989–90

  345,577

  42½

  1990–91

  315,256

  40

  1991–92

  (n.a.)

  37½

  1 To 2 August 1964.

  2 From 3 August 1964.

  3 To 24 March 1968.

  4 From 25 March 1968.

EMPLOYMENT

  Gas Heating Appliances
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what action the Health and Safety Executive is taking regarding the monitoring, safety and regulation of home gas space heating appliances in Wales.

  Mr. Forth
  The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1984 set out detailed requirements for the safe
  337
  installation and use of applicances where the gas is supplied through pipes. The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 1990 require all gas installation businesses working with piped gas to register with the Council for Registered Gas Installers (CORGI), which aims to ensure that all such businesses work in a competent manner. The Health and Safety Executive is reviewing both of these regulations with the aim of bringing into scope the installation and use of appliances which use liquefied petroleum gas supplied from a tank or cylinder located on the consumer's premises.

  HSE inspectors have powers under the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974 to investigate any reported incident involving gas and to take any enforcement action which may be necessary.

  International Biosynthetics
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what assessment he has made of the operation of the emergency plans required under the Control of Industrial Major. Accident Hazards Regulations 1984 in dealing with the recent chemical emission at the International Biosynthetics plant on Merseyside; and if he will make a statement about the co-ordination of information and emergency services on Merseyside in the event of a chemical or radiation incident.

  Mr. Forth
  The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) is investigating the accident at the International Biosynethetics plant. The investigation includes discussions with the Merseyside fire and civil defence authority to establish whether any changes are required to the off-site emergency plan for the site as required by regulation 11(1) of the Control of Industrial Major Accident Hazards Regulations (CIMAH) 1984.

  Emergency plans are usually drawn up locally; this is normally done by the local authorities at county level or the fire and civil defence authorities in the metropolitan areas. HSE is also involved as the enforcing authority for regulations requiring the preparation of off-site emergency plans for the limited number of sites subject to CIMAH regulation 11. Comprehensive emergency plans for civil nuclear installations are currently prepared by the licensee as a condition of the site licence. In October, the Health and Safety Commission published proposals to put off site planning at these installations on the same basis as the CIMAH regulations.

  HSE publishes advice to assist emergency planners in these areas in the form of two booklets "Arrangements for responding to nuclear emergencies" and "The Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1984 (CIMAH): further guidance on emergency plans".

  BR Escalators
  Dr. Marek
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many British Rail escalators, to which the public have access, have been examined by the Health and Safety Executive in the last five years; and what plans they have to examine the remainder.

  Mr. Forth
  The examination of escalators is primarily the responsibility of each railway undertaking. Her Majesty's inspecting officers of the Health and Safety Executive's railway inspectorate check the general condition of escalators in the course of routine inspections of stations, and if they find a fault that might be considered 338
  hazardous to public safety, it would he brought to the notice of the operator. The major stations where most British Rail escalators are situated arc inspected at least once every two years. Her Majesty's railway inspectorate does not keep records of individual escalators.

  Employment Training
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what policy considerations govern the choice of 24 years as the upper age limit for the payment of child care costs for women seeking to re-enter the labour market under the aegis of employment training.

  Mr. Forth
  No such upper age limit exists. Training and enterprise councils (TECs) must meet or reimburse the support costs, including those of child care, to a level which is reasonable and necessary for training to take place, for all those entering employment training aged 18 to 24 who have been unemployed between six and 12 months—that is, those from the adult guarantee group. But others eligible to join employment training may also be helped with support costs at the discretion of the TEC.

  National Dock Labour Board
  Mr. Nicholls
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement about the progress in winding up the affairs of the National Dock Labour Board.

  Mr. Forth
  Yes. The wind-up has been concluded successfully and all the board's properties have been sold. I have placed in the Library copies of the board's final accounts covering the period from 4 July 1989 to the board's dissolution on 30 June 1990.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Royal Commonwealth Society
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what approaches he has received concerning the future of the library of the Royal Commonwealth Society.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  In recent months a number of approaches have been made to FCO Ministers on the future of the library of the Royal Commonwealth Society. Ministers are well aware of the problems and of the measures being taken by the Royal Commonwealth Society to tackle them.

  Lt. Col. Partap Singh
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when Lt. Col. Partap Singh (Retd), president of the Khalsa Raj party, applied to the British embassy in Washington for a visa to visit the United Kingdom; and when a decision is to be taken on his application.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  Lt. Col. Singh applied to the embassy in Washington for a visit visa on 4 September. Subsequently. he withdrew his application at the embassy in Oslo on 24 September.

  Kenya
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proposals he has to assist with the travelling arrangements of Somali refugees from camps to the British embassy in Nairobi to attend visa interviews; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  None. We do not propose to assist with the travelling arrangements of Somali refugees in Kenya. The British high commissioner in Nairobi is not aware of any Somali refugees in Kenya who encounter difficulty in travelling to Nairobi to attend entry clearance interviews.

  Foreign Affairs Council
  Mr. Dykes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the outcome of the Foreign Affairs Council on 16 December.

  Mr. Hurd
  My hon. Friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and I represented the United Kingdom at the Foreign Affairs Council on 16 December.

  The Council agreed in principle that a further 200 million ecu (£140 million) of food aid should be sent urgently to the Soviet Union and that a first tranche of 500 million ecu (£350 million) of the 1·25 billion ecu (£875 million) food and medical aid standby credit should be disbursed as soon as possible. The Foreign Affairs Council also decided to establish a task force, based in Moscow or St. Petersburg, to help with food distribution.

  The Council discussed the timetable for further technical work on the draft treaty on European union in order to ensure consistency between the provisions on political union and economic and monetary union and to prepare the text for signature. It considered reports on immigration and asylum presented by the Commission and invited Immigration Ministers to continue their work in this area on the lines agreed by the Maastricht European Council.

  The Council asked the Commission to draw up proposals for the denunciation of the Lome convention with respect to Haiti and to report to the Committee of Permanent Representatives on what steps might be taken to provide new humanitarian aid to Albania and to the Baltic states. It also agreed that the Commission should start exploratory talks with Romania on a possible association agreement. The Council adopted measures extending to countries of central America the generalised system of preferences concessions which it granted to the Andean pact countries last year.

  The Council considered the way forward on the European Economic Area (EEA) agreement in the light of the European Court of Justices's opinion that the proposed judicial mechanism to be established under the EEA was incompatible with the treaty of Rome. The Council asked the Commission to identify possible solutions with a view to signature early next year.

  Ministers discussed human rights in China, and agreed that the Political Committee should carry out a study. In the meantime, no new Community aid projects for China would be agreed.
  340
  In the margins of the Council, Ministers and the Commission signed EC association agreements with Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia and a co-operation agreement with San Marino.

  Ministers issued a declaration on guidelines on the recognition of new states in eastern Europe and in the Soviet Union. They discussed the situation in Yugoslavia in the light of these guidelines. They agreed to recognise on 15 January 1992 the independence of those Yugoslav republics satisfying certain conditions. The Arbitration Commission of the EC conference on Yugoslavia will advise on whether conditions have been met.

  Tunisia
  Mr. Harris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about relations with Tunisia.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  They remain good. I made a successful visit to Tunisia on 2–3 December. On 17 December British Gas signed a $600 million contract to develop an offshore gas field. This is the largest ever British investment in Tunisia. It marks a breakthrough for the British private sector and will, I hope, generate further export opportunities.

  Arms Transfers
  Mr. Harris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has been made towards establishing an international register of conventional arms transfers.

  Mr. Hurd
  On 9 December the United Nations General Assembly voted by an overwhelming majority to establish at the United Nations a universal and non-discriminatory register of conventional arms transfers, covering the transfer of specific major weapons systems. This follows directly from the initiative which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister took at the Luxembourg European Council on 8 April. We played a leading part in drafting and lobbying for the United Nations resolution, whch we tabled with our European Partners and Japan. The register will introduce greater openness and make it easier for the international community to monitor excessive arms build-up in any one country. We expect all responsible governments to recognise the value and importance of the decision taken by the General Assembly, and provide the necessary information for the register.

  The register comes into effect from January 1992. It requests all participant states to record their imports and exports of certain major weapon systems and provide this information to the United Nations Secretary-General on an annual basis. The categories of weapon system affected are tanks, combat aircraft, attack helicopters, warships, armoured combat vehicles, large-calibre artillery and missiles and missile systems. In Britain's case, the disclosure of such information will require additional powers. The Government intend to bring the necessary legislation before the House early in the next Parliament. The legislation will require disclosure of all exports and imports within the categories named above with effect from 1 January 1992.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Police National Computer
  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many names, other than the criminal names category, are entered on the police national computer.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The names database on the PNC holds 5,634,424 records. These include 138,893 wanted or missing persons and 273,296 disqualified drivers, some of whom may also have been convicted of criminal offences. In addition, the PNC holds records of some 40 million vehicles. These records include the name of the registered keeper.

  Prisons (Mother and Baby Units)
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the staffing complement of each of the mother and baby units in Her Majesty's prisons; and how many of these staff have appropriate qualifications in child care.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The staffing complement in each of the units is as follows:

  am

  pm

  Evening

  Nights

  HMP Holloway

  1 senior officer + 2 officers

  1 Senior officer + 2 officers

  2 officers

  2 officers

  HMP and YOI Styal

  1 officer

  1 officer

  1 officer

  1 night patrol

  HMP Askham Grange

  1 officer

  1 officer

  1 officer

  1 night patrol

  At present, the prison officers who work on the units do not have qualifications in child care. However, nursing cover is provided on a 24-hour basis and the local health visitor attends each unit regularly. Each unit is being encouraged to make use of the facilities available in the local community, so that where appropriate mothers can attend social service run family centres.

  Officers from each unit have attended week long courses at HM prison Holloway devised specifically for staff working on the units. A full staff training needs analysis is being undertaken by the Prison Service College. In addition, HM prison Styal is planning to recruit nursery nurses to work in its unit in the new year.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many women prisoners have applied in the last year to have their babies with them in prison mother and baby units; and how many have been successful.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The numbers of women prisoners who applied for admission to the units in 1991 were as follows:

  Askham Grange:

  Out of 25 applications received, only three were refused; in each case the mother had a history of child abuse.

  Styal:

  There have been 36 applications; one was rejected in view of her unsuitability for the mother and baby unit. Due to lack of space, two women have been put on a waiting list.
  342
  Holloway:

  There have been 65 applications. There have been no rejections but due to lack of space two women have been put on a waiting list.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many places have been available in prison mother and baby units in each of the past five years; and if there are plans to increase the number of such places in the future.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The total number of places available in the three prison mother and baby units in each of the past five years has been 39. With the arrival of older babies at Styal, it has been necessary to reduce the number of mother and baby places from 12 to 10. The current number of places available is therefore 37. Consultations are taking place at Styal to determine both the medium and long-term requirements of mothers with older babies.

  A new purpose-built unit, which will provide an additional closed facility for nine mothers and their babies, is planned at Her Majesty's prison New Hall. This unit should be ready for occupation by the spring of 1994.

  Poll Tax
  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are his Department's estimates of the cost to the prison service and the police force in connection with the imprisonment of poll tax defaulters.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  There is no central record of the number of people proceeded against and imprisoned for failure to pay poll tax. It is not therefore possible to estimate the associated costs to the prison service or to the police.

  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are his Department's estimates of the costs of debt collection by local authorities, including court costs and legal aid fees, in conection with poll tax defaulters.

  Mr. Key
  I have been asked to reply.

  My Department has made no such estimates.

  Lotteries
  Mr. Kilfoyle
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Government have any plans to increase local authorities' powers to vet applications to hold lotteries.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  We keep the law governing the conduct and regulation of lotteries under review, but have no current proposals to increase local authorities' powers.

  Styal Prison Steering Group
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department further to the reply given by the Minister of State on 7 November at column 219, what is the membership of the Styal prison steering group; and how many times it has met.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The membership of the Styal prison steering group is as follows:

  Area manager, Trans-Pennine (Chairman)

  Governor, HM prison Styal

  Head of residence, HM prison Styal

  Principal nursing sister, HM prison Styal

  343

  Group manager, HM prison Styal

  Senior psychologist, HM prison Styal

  Probation officer, HM prison Styal

  A representative from DIP 1 division, prison service HQ

  Principal officer from Cheshire social services

  The steering group met for the first time on 12 December. Future meetings will be held on a quarterly basis.

  Complainant

  Date of complaint

  Programme

  Date of broadcast

  Nature of complaint

  Commission s adjudication

  Date

  Mr. Marc Ellington

  11 March 1991

  "Scottish Eye: Making History Pay" Hyndland Television Channel 4

  10 March 1991

  Unjust or unfair treatment

  Upheld in part

  23 October 1991

  Mr. Richard Emerson

  21 June 1991

  "Scottish Eye: Making History Pay" Hyndland Television Channel 4

  10 March 1991

  Unjust or unfair treatment

  Upheld

  23 October 1991

  However, I understand from the Commission that the two complaints considered did not arise from the payment of grants by historic buildings councils. No other complaints have been received.

  Closed-circuit Television
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration he has given to extending the use of closed-circuit television used for traffic management to such uses as crime prevention and detection; and what guidance he has issued on these matters.

  Mr. John Patten
  The use of surveillance systems is an operational matter for chief officers. The Home Office has, however, issued guidance that closed circuit television should he used by the police only when necessary for the proper and efficient conduct of police operations.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assistance he has given to pilot projects on the use of closed-circuit television as an instrument for tackling crime in city centres.

  Mr. John Patten
  The steering committees of a number of local safer cities projects have recommended giving financial support to a total of nine crime prevention schemes involving the use of closed-circuit television in city centre locations, including schemes confined to car parks. Home Office grant totalling £280,000 has been approved for these schemes. In the case of each scheme, the grant is a partial contribution only to the total cost.

  Somalia
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has reviewed the working of the concession made in September 1988 to Somali refugees; if he has plans to extend it; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The concession is kept under constant review in the light of circumstances both in Somalia itself and neighbouring countries. The original scheme was criticised on the grounds that those who could not reach

  Historic Buildings (Broadcasting Complaints)
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list those cases considered by the Broadcasting Complaints Commission in 1991 concerning programmes which raised issues related to the payment of grants by historic buildings councils.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I understand that the Commission have considered two complaints arising from a single programme which looked at the work of the Historic Buildings Council for Scotland. The details are as follows:

  the relevant British diplomatic post to apply for entry clearance in person were denied the right of appeal (under section 13(2) of the Immigration Act 1971) which normally applies to applications made abroad. Earlier this year new arrangements were introduced to allow sponsors here to make written application direct to the post concerned in the event of an adverse decision by the Home Office, thus qualifying the applicant for appeal rights. We have no plans to extend the concession any further at present although I will look into the points the hon. Member raised with me when we discussed this matter on 18 December.

  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the number of requests from Somalis in the United Kingdom for the issue of visas to relatives abroad seeking asylum at the latest date; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  On 29 November 1991 there were 1,371 outstanding visa applications from Somalis seeking to join relatives in the United Kingdom.

  Animal Experiments
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received over increases in the number of tests on live animals carried out in respect of food additives.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  We are not aware of any such representations.

  Ms. Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what measures he will take to reduce the use of animals in experiments for food additive tests.

  Miss Rumbold
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is not one of the Ministers responsible for the national and international regulations under which the safety testing of food additives are required. His responsibility is for controlling the conduct of scientific procedures on living animals. We have no plans to refuse licences where my right hon. Friend is satisfied that the work is justified under section 5 of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986.
  345
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many inspectors he employs to monitor tests on live animals; whether he has received representations to increase this number; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  There were 20 members of the Home Office animals (scientific procedures) inspectorate on 19 December. The Home Office receives representations from time to time to increase the number of inspectors, but I am satisfied that the present strength of the inspectorate is adequate.

  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received urging the amendment of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986; and whether he proposes any amendment or administrative action to end or reduce tests on live animals(a) for cosmetics and (b) for drugs similar to those already on the market.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The Home Office receives a large volume of correspondence on a wide range of animal procedures matters, part of which will contain particular or general suggestions for changes to the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 or the way in which it is administered.

  Provided that the requirements of the 1986 Act are fulfilled, my right hon. Friend will continue to grant under section 5 project licences authorising particular programmes of work involving living animals. The modification of drugs to improve their efficacy or reduce their unwanted side effects is an important route of scientific and therapeutic advance. Any application for a project licence which clearly sought to develop a drug already on the market would not, however, be granted. The use of animals in the safety testing of cosmetics accounted for less than one quarter of a per cent. of all animal tests carried out in this country in 1990. Reductions in the number of tests on animals for whatever purpose depend heavily on scientific advances in the development of acceptable alternatives, their validation, and their acceptance by regulatory bodies.

  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what change there has been, since 1 January 1991, in his policy of counting the number of LD50 force feeding tasks on live animals; and what were the numbers of such tests in each of the last five years;

  (2) what representations he has received over (a) recent increases in the LD50 force feeding test on live animals and (b) the utility and possibility of replacement of this test; and if he will make a statement.
  346
  Mrs. Rumbold
  Substances administered in acute toxicity tests are not always given by means of a tube inserted into the stomach. The statistics do not differentiate between routes of administration.

  There has been encouraging progress in further reducing the need for formal LD50 tests. As a result of a British initiative led by the Department of Health and supported and part funded by the Home Office, a testing method which does not rely on lethality as an end point has been developed, validated and accepted by international regulatory bodies as a replacement of the LD50 test in many areas of toxicity testing. We understand that the new test will be incorporated into OECD guidelines next year.

  There has been no change since 1 January 1991 in the counting of LD50 tests. However, it is not possible to identify these tests separately in the statistics because they are included in the wider group of acute and subacute quantitative whole body lethal toxicity tests. The 1990 figures for this group are given in columns (8) and (9) of table 14 of "Statistics of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals, Great Britain 1990" (Cm 1574), a copy of which is in the Library of the House. The descriptions of the classifications of toxicity tests were amended slightly for clarification in the 1990 statistics which means that this group now includes tests previously recorded in other columns of the tables. Taking all acute and subacute whole body toxicity tests together gives comparable figures for Great Britain as follows:

  Thousands of procedures

  Acute and subacute whole body toxicity tests

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Lethal

  234

  233

  176

  206

  Non-Lethal

  166

  148

  143

  139

  All

  400

  381

  319

  345

  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what figures he has for each of the last three years of the number bred of(a) animals with a harmful genetic defect or (b) transgenic animals; and whether he will make a statement on trends indicated by these figures.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The number of scientific procedures started in 1990 using animals bred with harmful genetic defects (including transgenic animals as a separate category) is given in table 15 of "Statistics of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals, Great Britain 1990" (Cm 1574), a copy of which is in the Library. As explained in paragraph 19 of the introductory notes and paragraph 24(m) of the Commentary in the Command Paper, there are no comparable figures for earlier years.

  Juvenile Offenders
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what was the number of juvenile offenders(a) cautioned and (b) found guilty by a court in each year since 1980;

  (2) what (a) percentage and (b) number of incidents reported to police in each year since 1980 he estimates were committed by juveniles;

  (3) what was the source of figures on juvenile offending referred to in his oral statement on 12 December at column 1068.

  Mr. John Patten
  Information referred to in my oral statement at column 1097 on 12 December is published in the annual Command Paper (Cm. 1322) criminal statistics, England and Wales 1989, chapter 5, copies of which can be found in the Library.

  Information on the number of incidents committed by juveniles reported to the police is not collected centrally. the data from "Criminal Statistics 1989" given in the table below relate to the number of juveniles (persons aged 10 to under 17 years) cautioned and found guilty of indictable offences and as a percentage of all persons cautioned and found guilty.

  "Criminal Statistics 1990" will not be published until the spring of 1992.

  Number of juveniles (persons aged 10 to under 17) cautioned and found guilty of indictable offences and as a percentage of all persons cautioned and found guilty 1980–1989

  England and Wales

  Thousands

  All persons cautioned and found guilty

  Cautioned and found guilty

  Juveniles (10 to under 17)

  ( = 100 per cent.)

  No.

  Per cent.

  No.

  No.

  1980

  555·3

  175·8

  32

  85·5

  90·2

  1981

  567·3

  174·3

  31

  87·6

  86·7

  1982

  585·1

  174·5

  30

  93·0

  81·8

  1983

  574·5

  167·9

  29

  94·6

  73·4

  1984

  571·3

  169·2

  30

  99·0

  70·1

  1985

  587·0

  175·7

  30

  112·5

  63·1

  1986

  518·6

  141·5

  27

  93·5

  48·0

  1987

  533·8

  137·6

  26

  95·7

  42·0

  1988

  524·3

  119·3

  23

  82·9

  36·5

  1989

  472·7

  99·3

  21

  72·8

  26·4

  Sir Basil Feldman
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many times in the last 12 months he has met Sir Basil Feldman;

  (2) when was the last time he met Sir Basil Feldman; and what subjects were discussed;

  (3) when he last discussed Sunday trading with Sir Basil Feldman.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  To discuss Sunday trading, Sir Basil Feldman called on my right hon. Friend on 13 March 1991 and on me on 5 June.

  Sunday Trading
  Mr. Gale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to ensure that those shops that have been trading on Sundays in contravention 348
  of current English law do not retain the resulting profits, in the event of a European Court of Justice decision upholding that law.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Mr. Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has from police authorities and chief constables on the financial and manpower consequences for policing as a result of the opening of shopping facilities on the four Sundays before Christmas.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  None. Deployment of police officers is a matter for the chief constables concerned.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will bring before Parliament a statutory instrument to amend schedule 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 to include offences under section 47 of the Shops Act 1950.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave on 16 December to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton) at columns 10–11.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) when he received the Durham university business school report "Women and Work" on women's attitudes to working unsocial hours in the retail trade;

  (2) what conclusions he has drawn from the Durham university business school report "Women and Work" for any changes to the law on Sunday trading.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  My right hon. Friend and I received copies of the report on 27 and 26 November respectively. The report is currently being evaluated.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has on changes to the Sunday trading laws in France.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  None.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has made of the extent to which food superstores opening on Sundays are complying with the licensing laws in every respect.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Because the enforcement of the liquor licensing law in England and Wales is a local matter for the police, no such assessment is called for.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what account he has taken of the Robert George industrial tribunal decision on Sunday working in considering his policy on the reform of the law on Sunday trading.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Policy implications, if any, of decisions of industrial tribunals are primarily for the Department of Employment. In developing policy on reform of the law on Sunday trading, we work closely with them on the interests of those who do and do not wish to work in retailing on Sundays.

  Operation Container
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, pursuant to his reply of 13 December,Official Report, column 580, what representations he has received from people and organisations in Lancashire outside Greater Manchester about Operation Container.
  349
  Mrs. Rumbold
  Representations have been received from Lancashire county council and from other sources in respect of the use of police cells in Lancashire. On 18 December the Lancashire constabulary held 100 adult prisoners who should be in prison. As my earlier reply explained, this use of police cells is unacceptable and my right hon. Friend and I are determined that it should be brought to an end in the shortest possible time.

  Foundation for Business Responsibility
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the organisation Foundation for Business Responsibility is recognised as a legitimate charity by the Charity Commission.

  Mr. John Patten
  The Foundation for Business Responsibilities was registered by the Charity Commission on 17 April 1967. Its objects are the promotion of education in industrial and commercial affairs.

  BBC Wales
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what will be the pay for the new chairman-elect of the board of governors of BBC Wales, including the pay for being on the BBC main board of governors; and what is the basis of days worked per week or month on which the appointment has been made of Dr. Gwyn Jones.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The BBC board of governors comprises 12 governors, of whom one is chairman, another vice-chairman and three more are respectively national governors for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. As part of their duties, the national governors also serve as chairmen of their respective national broadcasting councils. The BBC national governor for Wales is therefore chairman of the Broadcasting Council for Wales.

  The remuneration of the BBC national governor for Wales (and that of the national governors for Scotland and Northern Ireland) is £14,150 per annum on the basis of one and a half days per week. Dr. Gwyn Jones' appointment as the new national governor for Wales is therefore on the basis of one and half days per week.

  Immigration
  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many visas were granted at United Kingdom posts abroad for the purpose of entering the United Kingdom to seek asylum in(a) 1988, (b) 1989, (c) 1990 and (d) 1991 to the nearest available date.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The available information, which may understate, is of grants of asylum to principal applications which were made overseas. The recorded figures are shown in the table.

  Grants1 2 of asylum to principal applications received by British posts abroad and referred to the Home Office for decision

  Year

  Number

  1988

  15

  1989

  15

  31990

  5

  3 41991

  10

  1 Excluding dependants.

  2 Figures rounded to the nearest 5.

  350
  3Provisional figures, which may understate because of delays in recording.

  4 (January to June).

  Miscarriages of Justice
  Ms. Richardson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many applications for compensation for miscarriages of justice he received in the last year for which figures are available;

  (2) how many applications for ex-gratia payments for compensation for miscarriages of justice he received in the last year for which figures are available; how many were successful, and what were the highest and lowest payments made.

  Mr. John Patten
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ms. Richardson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applications he has received for ex-gratia payments from women who were wrongly convicted under byelaws at RAF Greenham Common; how many have been successful; and what has been the average level of award.

  Mr. John Patten
  We have received eight applications for compensation from women who were convicted under the RAF Greenham Common byelaws 1985. None of these applications has been granted.

  Ms. Richardson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applications he has turned down for ex-gratia payments from women who were wrongly convicted under byelaws at RAF Greenham Common; and for what reasons he has refused these payments.

  Mr. John Patten
  We have refused five ex-gratia payment applications from women who were convicted under the RAF Greenham Common byelaws 1985. The applications were refused because they did not meet the criteria of the ex-gratia scheme for compensation.

  Mr. Mullin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to pay the first instalment of compensation to John McGranagan following his wrongful conviction.

  Mr. John Patten
  Mr. McGranaghan's application for compensation was received last month. My right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position to reach a decision soon.

  Sexual Offences
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many cases of male homosexual rape have been recorded in Her Majesty's prisons in each of the years for which numbers have been recorded; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  I regret that the information requested is not recorded centrally.

  Mr. Michael Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to amend the law so as to make sexual offences under United Kingdom law but committed outside the United Kingdom actionable in the British courts, particularly in respect of minors.

  Mr. John Patten
  We have no plans to extend the jurisdiction of our courts in this way.

  Drugs
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the number of drug-related projects which have received financial support from his Department during 1991; and how much support they have been given.

  Mr. John Patten
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to increase the lower limit for eligibility for compensation under the criminal injuries compensation scheme; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  A guiding principle in considering the allocation of available resources for the compensation for victims of crimes of violence is that compensation should go to the more serious cases. The Government are committed to upholding that principle.

  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have decided that to ensure the maintenance of this principle, applications for compensation received by the board on or after 6 January 1992 will be met only where the injury sustained would attract an award of at least £1,000.

  The 27th annual report of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board recently announced a record annual payment to the victims of crimes of violence of £109·3 million in 1990–91, 50 per cent. more than the previous year.

  Total spending on the CICB scheme in England, Wales and Scotland is set to rise to £144 million in 1992–93, £157 million in 1993–94 and £161 million in 1994–95.

  The increase in funding from £48 million in 1987–88 to £144 million in 1992–93, £96 million amounts to a rise of 300 per cent.

  Trevi and Immigration Ministers
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement about the meetings of Trevi and European Community Immigration Ministers in The Hague on 2 and 3 December.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  The meeting of Ministers concerned with immigration was the 11 th in the series of meetings held towards the end of each presidency since 1986. The Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Mr. Patten), attended on my behalf.

  Immigration Ministers approved a report for submission to the European Council on the harmonisation of immigration and asylum policies, as requested at the Luxembourg European Council. The report contained a detailed work programme for implementation over the next few years. The report made by Immigration Ministers has subsequently been endorsed by the European Council meeting at Maastricht.

  In the asylum field, Ministers agreed that every effort should be made to ensure ratification of the Dublin convention by the end of 1992 at the latest.

  Ministers also agreed that everything possible should be done to resolve the outstanding problem (concerning Gibraltar) which has prevented signature of the draft external frontiers convention.
  352
  The meeting of Trevi Ministers endorsed measures to strengthen practical police co-operation. These include: the establishment of national contact points for public order matters; guidelines having the aim of strengthening the mutual assistance in criminal cases; recommendations on the controlled delivery of drugs; and police co-operation in common frontier zones. The Ministers agreed to submit a report to the European Council, prepared by the ad hoc working group chaired by the United Kingdom, recommending the establishment of a central European criminal investigation office, "Europol", with a drugs unit as its first stage. Ministers also agreed, at the United Kingdom's suggestion, that car crime be placed on Trevi's agenda and that the United Kingdom should convene an ad hoc seminar of experts on this subject during the Portuguese presidency.

  Visas
  Miss Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will lift visa restrictions for Polish citizens.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  We have no plans to do so.

HEALTH

  Children's Homes
  Mr. Tredinnick
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what measures he has in hand to ensure the proper protection of children in residential homes.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that my right hon. Friend gave to a private notice question from my hon. Friend the Member for Leicestershire, North-West (Mr. Ashby) on 2 December at columns 23–29.

  Leicestershire county council is today announcing the appointment of Mr. Andrew Kirkwood QC to chair the inquiry to be conducted by the council into matters arising from the recent criminal trial of child care officers formerly employed in the council's children's homes. He will be assisted by two assessors who have yet to be appointed.

  Skin Cancers and Cataracts
  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimates he has made of the number of cases of(a) skin cancer broken down into melanoma and non-melanoma and (b) cataracts as a result of ozone depletion in the United Kingdom in (i) 1995, (ii) 2000, (iii) 2005 and (iv) 2010.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Any assessment of long-term health effects resulting from depletion of the ozone layer, with a concomitant increase in ground levels of ultraviolet radiation, would be influenced strongly by assumptions made about global future releases of various pollutants, particularly chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs). The United Kingdom strongly supports the Montreal protocol on the phasing out or reduction in emissions of the most harmful of these pollutants. In addition, increased awareness of the dangers of excessive exposure to sunlight will influence public behaviour in relation to sunbathing habits. It is therefore not possible to predict with any confidence the incidence of skin cancer or cataracts in the future. However, trends in the incidence rates of these diseases will continue to be monitored.
  353
  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many cases of melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancers, squamous cell and basal cell, have been reported in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland for each of the years 1980 to 1990.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Registrations of cases of malignant melanoma of skin (ICD1 172), and other malignant neoplasm of skin (ICD1173) for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland for each of the years 1980 to 1990, the latest year for which figures are available, are as follows.

  Malignant melanoma of skin

  Year

  England

  Wales

  Scotland

  Northern Ireland

  1980

  1,827

  93

  285

  37

  1981

  1,952

  96

  261

  47

  1982

  1,990

  116

  285

  36

  1983

  2,080

  168

  333

  35

  1984

  2,083

  148

  251

  46

  1985

  2,494

  162

  429

  39

  1986

  2,635

  167

  444

  50

  1987

  n.a.

  n.a.

  404

  51

  1988

  n.a.

  n.a.

  500

  44

  1989

  n.a.

  n.a.

  478

  35

  1990

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  58

  Other malignant neoplasm of skin2

  1980

  18,965

  1,250

  2,531

  536

  1981

  20,035

  1,234

  2,653

  530

  1982

  19,742

  1,108

  2,650

  529

  1983

  20,981

  755

  2,816

  512

  1984

  20,892

  1,362

  2,880

  486

  1985

  21,994

  1,349

  3,127

  484

  1986

  25,265

  1,502

  3,221

  483

  1987

  n.a.

  n.a.

  3,223

  549

  1988

  n.a.

  n.a.

  3,718

  551

  1989

  n.a.

  n.a.

  3,956

  510

  1990

  n.a.

  n.a.

  n.a.

  538

  1 International Classification of Diseases code (ninth revision)

  2 Registration of cancers from these sites are well known to be particularly difficult and liable to incompleteness.

  It would not be possible to distinguish between squamous cell and basal cell carcinomas without disproportionate cost.

  It was recognised by the working party chaired by Professor Eva Alberman which reported last year on the national cancer registration scheme (Series MB1 No. 17) that better and more timely figures were required. Many of the working party's 17 recommendations are currently being taken forward by the cancer registries in the regional health authorities and by the NHS information management group in the Department. At OPCS, the large and complex computer system is being completely redeveloped. This will not be ready until 1994, but results for England and Wales for 1987 should be published by spring next year and those for 1988 by the end of the year.

  Ozone Depletion
  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many staff are working in his Department full-time on the human health effect of ozone depletion in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Dorrell
  No staff are employed full-time on this specific area. A number of officials are engaged on work relating to health aspects of radiation in the environment, including ultraviolet and other non-ionising radiations. The National Radiological Protection Board also employs scientific staff on work in these areas.
  354
  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list any studies his Department has undertaken or commissioned on the human health impacts of ozone depletion over the United Kingdom; and if it has any plans to do any further studies.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The predominant health effects which might arise as a result of the depletion in the ozone layer would be as a consequence of an increased exposure to solar ultraviolet radiation. The National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) has three stations in the United Kingdom which constantly monitor levels of ultraviolet light from the sun. The data obtained from these monitoring stations is published annually.

  The NRPB and other research groups in the United Kingdom and abroad have undertaken a number of studies into the health effects of ultraviolet radiation and further research is either under way or planned.

  In addition, the NRPB has established an advisory group which will, among other things, review these studies and will advise on the need for further research when its review is complete. The Committee on Medical Aspects of Radiation in the Environment (COMARE) is also being kept informed of development in this area.

  Refugee Children
  Ms. Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will consider providing special funding for the local authorities caring for unaccompanied refugee children.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  We recognise that the cost of caring for these children bears heavily on a small number of local authorities. The authorities concerned are mostly in London where the standard spending assessments are higher than the national average because they face additional pressures such as this. For 1992–93 the children's personal social services standard spending assessment for London is over twice the national average and that for Inner London nearly four times the national average. It is for the authorities themselves to make their own decisions on priorities for local services.

  London Hospitals
  Mr. Robert Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what are the numbers of empty beds at the Charing Cross hospital, Hammersmith; what is the current waiting list for operations in the North West Thames regional health authority; and if he has any changes planned for the hospital functions in the future.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information requested for North West Thames regional health authority is given in the table. Information on the number of empty beds is not collected centrally. My hon. Friend may wish to contact Mr. Ian Dixon, the chairman of Riverside health authority, for details. There are no current plans for changes in the hospital functions.

  North West Thames RHA: Latest waiting times

  Waiting time

  Total in September 1991

  Total in October 1991

  Percentage change

  Over 2 years

  5,687

  5,025

  -12

  1–2 years

  11,684

  11,471

  -2

  Under 1 year

  44,816

  42,933

  -4

  Total

  62,187

  59,429

  -4·4

  Abortion
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health further to his answer to the hon. Member for Bury, North (Mr. Burt) of 12 December,Official Report, columns 484–85, if he will extend the application in principle of the conscience clause in the Abortion Act 1967 to (a) pharmacists who are asked to participate in abortions by dispensing abortifacient drugs for that purpose, (b) medical secretaries who are asked to participate in abortions by processing administrative details required for abortions and (c) other medical and ancillary staff required to assist in the process of abortion except where their assistance is purely for the purpose of caring for mother and baby.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Section 4 of the Abortion Act 1967 makes provision for conscientious objection to participation in treatment authorised by the Act. Its operation cannot be extended except by primary legislation. However, in recognition of the particular concern expressed about the position of those ancillary staff in hospitals who are involved in the handling of fetuses and fetal tissue, hospital managers have been asked to apply the principle of section 4 to any ancillary staff who express a conscientious objection to participation in that activity. We have no plans to ask managers to apply the principle to other personnel who are not directly concerned with the handling of fetuses and fetal tissue.

  Arachnoiditis
  Mr. Viggers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what work has been carried out by his Department on arachnoiditis, including investigations of its cause, symptoms and the prognosis for suffers; what research he has funded into treatments and possible cure; and what information his Department has about claims for compensation by sufferers whose condition is alleged to have been caused by the administration of Myodil.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The main agency through which the Government support biomedical and clinical research is the Medical Research Council (MRC) which receives its grant-in-aid from the Department of Education and Science. The MRC is not currently supporting any research specifically into arachnoiditis.

  We are aware that litigation is proceeding on behalf of people who claim damage through the administration of myodil.

  General Medical Services
  Mrs. Currie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what resources will be made available for the cash limited general medical services in 1992–93.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire) on 19 December.

  RHAs (Capital Spending)
  Mrs. Currie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement about the amounts to be allocated to regional health authorities for capital spending in 1992–93.
  356
  Mr. Waldegrave
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Thurnham) on 19 December.

  NHS Trusts
  Mrs. Currie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, if he will announce National Health Service trusts' external financing limits for 1992–93; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. King) on 19 December.

  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether it is possible for a national health service trust to merge with non-trust health services without(a) public consultation or (b) without application to the Secretary of State for Health.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  We will be issuing detailed guidance on NHS trust mergers and acquisitions early in the new year. Where an NHS trust plans to merge with non-trust health services and this requires an amendment to the original statutory instrument formally establishing the trust the regional health authority will consult in accordance with section 5 of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990 under an order made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. In any other case the district health authority in question will consult the community health council.

  Hospital Eye Service
  Dame Jill Knight
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many referrals to the hospital eye service of persons above the age of 60 years took place in each year since 1987;

  (2) how many referrals to the hospital eye service there were of (a) glaucoma, (b) cataract and (c) age-related maculopathy, in each year since 1987.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information is not held centrally.

  Complex Lenses
  Dame Jill Knight
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what are the values of the complex lens entitlements within the spectable voucher scheme of the national health service for patients who have had a national health service eye examination on grounds of their complex lens eligibility only, and for patients who have had a national health service eye examination on grounds of insufficient income and who are found to require a prescription for complex lenses; and what information he has on the prevailing market prices of the cheapest available complex lenses.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The value of the complex lenses "supplement" for patients who are entitled to vouchers on the grounds of complex lens eligibility is £3·70 for single vision spectacles and £19·70 for bifocals. Patients who are otherwise entitled under the voucher scheme and who have prescriptions for complex lenses will receive a C voucher (£49·00) for single vision spectacles or an F voucher (£104·20) for bifocals. The Department's annual survey of voucher values indicates that spectacles with complex lenses are available within voucher values.

  Spectacles
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what provision is made for people claiming attendance allowance to meet the cost of spectacle lenses.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  People in receipt of attendance allowance can claim help with their spectacle lenses under the NHS low income scheme.

  North East Thames RHA
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that the procedures leading up to the recent appointment of North East Thames regional health authority's general manager followed good practice in equal opportunities employment.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Individual appointments to NHS posts are a matter for the relevant employing authorities. The NHS is committed to equal opportunities in employment. Normally, we would expect all NHS posts, including those at senior management level, to be advertised and openly competitive. However, there may be exceptional circumstances in which the adoption of other procedures is justified.

WALES

  Trawsfynydd Power Station
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the results and conclusions of the recent radiation monitoring programme carried out on the environment around Trawsfynydd power station by the fisheries radiological inspectorate on behalf of the Welsh Office.

  Mr. David Hunt
  On behalf of the Welsh Office, the fisheries radiological inspectorate regularly monitors levels of radioactivity in a variety of materials in the aquatic environment around Trawsfynydd power station. The results of this monitoring are pubished annually in the report "Radioactivity in Surface and Coastal Waters of the British Isles", copies of which are placed in the Library of the House.

  In addition to this regular monitoring of fish and sediments at Trawsfynydd an enhanced programme of analysis was set up earlier this year by the inspectorate to measure radioactivity in sediment profiles at Trawsfynydd lake. This work has recently been completed and the results have been made available to the local community liaison committee. They are broadly consistent with earlier readings obtained by Nuclear Electric. The radioactivity present in the sediments is at a low level.

  In terms of overall exposure to radioactivity by the public, the most highly exposed group are people who fish the lake and consume their catch. Expert advice is that the total radiation dose likely to be received by this group is no more than 10 per cent. of the internationally recommended limit of 1 mSv per year, i.e. well within the recognised safety limit.

  Roads
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the cost, expected start and completion date of the Deeside Park to Drove Corner road scheme.
  358
  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The scheme is expected to start between April 1994 and March 1997 at a cost of around £17 million. Construction is likely to take two years.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the cost and expected start and completion date of the Woodbank Junction to Deeside Park road scheme.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  This scheme is planned to start between April 1994 and March 1997 at a cost of around £16 million. Construction is likely to take about one and a half years.

  Disabled Employees
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the numbers of people registered as disabled in each grade in his Department and Cadw.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The information is as follows:

  Number

  Grade 6

  2

  SEO

  1

  HEO

  4

  EO

  6

  AO

  7

  AA

  15

  Support grades

  6

  The grade categories shown include equivalent professional grades.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his Department's policy on the employment of people registered as disabled; and what initiatives he has taken to increase the number of people registered as disabled employed by his Department.

  Mr. David Hunt
  My Department is fully committed to an equal opportunities policy which states that no job applicant or employee should receive less favourable treatment on the grounds of disablement. I have placed a copy of my Department's "Guide to Equal Opportunities" in the Library of the House.

  The initiatives my Department has taken include the appointment of a departmental disabled persons officer; close liaison with the Department of Employment, disablement advisory services and disablement resettlement officers, particularly on recruitment of disabled staff; the establishment of a work experience scheme for clients of the Cardiff employment rehabilitation centre; and the provision of special aids and equipment to disabled officers to enable them to carry out their duties effectively.

  A further programme of action to achieve equality of opportunity in the Welsh Office for disabled people is to be issued to staff early in 1992. This will contain details of current practice and areas for future development with measurable objectives and target dates for their achievement.

  RECHAR
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the coalfield communities concerning RECHAR funds.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have received a significant number of representations from hon. Members, including the hon.
  359
  Gentleman himself, local authorities and other bodies about RECHAR and have discussed the matter with a number of them. I have consistently made it clear that I am extremely concerned that these EC resources remain blocked by Commissioner Milian and I hope that the whole matter can be resolved as soon as possible.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action he is taking to release RECHAR funds for Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I am concerned that Commissioner Milian has not yet approved the RECHAR programme for industrial south Wales and I discussed this matter with his director general when I was in Brussels last month.

  Run-Down Mining Areas (Grants)
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what European funds have been received by his Department for (i) factory units, (ii) small businesses, (iii) promotion of tourism, (iv) training, (v) retraining and (vi) infrastructural and environmental improvements in run-down mining areas.

  Mr. David Hunt
  For the period 1989–91, £88 million from the European structural funds was committed to the Clwyd and industrial south Wales integrated development operation programmes, which cover Welsh coalfield areas. The operational programmes allocate the funding as shown in the table:

  1989–91 structural funds commitments to industrial south Wales and Clwyd IDOP areas

  ESF1

  ERDF £

  £ million

  £ million

  Industrial South Wales IDO

  Industrial infrastructure

  —

  14·03

  Communications

  —

  13·31

  Business development

  9·87

  2·61

  Environment

  0·84

  4·17

  Tourism

  3·42

  9·73

  Research and development

  3·30

  4·46

  Total

  17·43

  48·31

  Clwyd IDO

  Productive Activities

  —

  7·37

  Communications

  —

  3·19

  Business development

  1·49

  0·60

  Regional Image

  0·13

  3·38

  Tourism

  0·47

  5·18

  Technology

  0·50

  0·20

  Total

  2·59

  19·92

  1 European social fund.

  2 European regional development fund.

  Children's Homes
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make it his policy to encourage local authorities in Wales to appoint mature women who have brought up a family to run children's homes.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  A review of children's homes in Wales has recently been completed by social services inspectorate, Wales, and a report is currently under consideration. While its recommendations are designed to secure improvements in the management and running of all children's homes in Wales, and it discusses in particular 360
  the need to develop the existing skills of mature and experienced staff in order best to meet the needs of the children, the selection of staff is, and will remain, the responsibility of local care authorities.

  BBC Wales
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what changes there will be in the pay and terms and conditions of employment of Dr. Gwyn Jones as chairman of the Welsh Development Agency subsequent to his appointment as chairman-elect of the BBC Wales board of governors.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The pay and terms and conditions of Dr. Jones's commitment to the WDA will now be reviewed.

  Swansea College
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if the revised articles of government for Swansea college have been approved by the Welsh Office; and what are the current articles in force for the college.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Using powers vested in him under the Education Reform Act 1988 my right hon. Friend approved the revised articles of government for Swansea college submitted by West Glamorgan local education authority subject to amendments in August. I understand that the authority has accepted the amendments and will shortly be making the necessary order to bring the articles into effect. Until this is done the articles in force are those which were made by the authority under the Education (No. 2) Act 1968 which came into effect in March 1976.

  Training (Cardiff)
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his reply of 16 December,Official Report, column 73, if he will make it his policy to meet representatives of the South Glamorgan training and enterprise council, the South Glamorgan women's workshop and the Cardiff information technology centre, to consider alternative locations for a training centre of excellence; if he will meet the chairman of the Cardiff Bay development corporation to consider alternative uses for the previously earmarked training centre of excellence; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  No. The location of the proposed training centre is a matter for the development corporation and the other bodies concerned in the first instance and it would be inappropriate for me to intervene at this stage.

  House Repossessions
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with Tai Cymru regarding the resources required by Welsh housing associations to acquire mortgaged properties at risk of repossession for rent to occupants eligible for housing benefit as sitting tenants; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The statement yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, about the package agreed between the Government and mortgage lenders to tackle mortgage repossessions, explained that mortgage lenders would be providing the
  361
  resources for housing associations to acquire mortgaged properties at risk of repossession. We and Housing for Wales are having discussions with mortgage lenders in Wales about the implementation of their scheme.

  Third Dee Crossing
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will convene a conference at shire hall, Mold, of Clwyd county councillors, Alyn and Deeside councillors, town and community councils of Deeside, employers and trades unionists to discuss plans for a third Dee crossing.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  No. A meeting has been arranged in London on 28 January to discuss the third Dee crossing with the hon. Member and a delegation from the Alyn and Deeside district council.

  Groundwater
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the number of representations he has received since 6 December in connection with his groundwater consultations.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Since 6 December I have received 77 letters about groundwater-related matters, 61 of which were in identical terms; 59 of those 77 letters were included in the total figure that I gave the hon. Gentleman in my answer on 13 December.

  Cardiff Bay Barrage
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will place in the Library a copy of the correspondence between him and the Welsh Region of the National Rivers Authority referred to in the December 1991 National Rivers Authority position statement on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill, relating to the National Rivers Authority and the Secretary of State's general environmental duty and the assurances sought by the authority that the conservation implications of the barrage had been taken into account in arriving at the decision to promote the Bill.

  Mr. David Hunt
  No. The correspondence referred to was between officials of the NRA and my Department. It would not be appropriate for it to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what policy considerations were taken into account in removing in the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill the right conferred by paragraphs 52(1) and (2) of the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill for householders outside the protected property line to make a claim for remedial work against damage caused by rising groundwater, irrespective of whether that householder had previously commissioned a pre-impoundment survey; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The Bill provides for properties within the protected property line to be surveyed before and after impoundment in order to determine whether there have been any effects from rising groundwater. Owners and occupiers of properties outside the protected property line but within Cardiff, Penarth and Llandough who choose to have pre- and post-impoundment surveys undertaken are also entitled to benefit from the scheme. By an anomaly, cause 52 of the private Bill also entitled householders in 362
  Cardiff, Penarth and Llandough but outside the protected property line to a survey and remedial works even if they had not opted for the initial surveys.

  Kidney Patients
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the intake of new patients per million population in Wales in 1990 for kidney treatment.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  There were 80·6 new patients accepted for treatment of end stage renal failure per million population in Wales in 1990.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he has taken to assist kidney patients in Wales; and what new measures he proposes to help kidney patients in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave on 12 November 1991.

  Unemployment
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the rate of(a) female unemployment, (b) male unemployment and (c) long-term unemployment in Dyfed.

  Mr. David Hunt
  In November 1991 the unemployment rates for men and women in Dyfed were 11·3 per cent. and 5·6 per cent. of the work force respectively.

  The latest available long-term unemployment data are for October, when 1·8 per cent. of the Dyfed work force had been unemployed for more than one year.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he proposes to assist the unemployed in Dyfed.

  Mr. David Hunt
  My Department, the Welsh Development Agency and other Government agencies operate a wide range of measures aimed at combating unemployment. The Welsh Office and all the other bodies will continue to look for and respond swiftly to opportunities that arise which have the potential to reduce unemployment.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he proposes to assist the unemployed in the Fishguard area.

  Mr. David Hunt
  My Department, the Welsh Development Agency and other Government agencies operate a wide range of measures aimed at combating unemployment. The Welsh Office and all the other bodies will continue to look for and respond swiftly to opportunities that arise which have the potential to reduce unemployment. I have, in particular, asked the Welsh Development Agency and West Wales TEC, in association with the local authorities and employment services, to consider what action needs to be taken to alleviate the effects of the proposed closure of RNAD Trecwn.

  Naval Base, Trecwn
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will visit the Royal Navy base at Trecwn, Dyfed.
  363
  Mr. David Hunt
  At present, I have no plans to do so.I met a deputation from the depot on 9 September.

  Health Service Expenditure
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his written answer to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, of 17 December,Official Report, column 137, what was the average annual rate of increase in national health service expenditure in Wales as measured in input unit costs (a) from 1974–75 to 1978–79 and (b) from 1979–80 to 1990–91.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The average increases were as follows:

  a. 2·8 per cent. pa

  b. 2·3 per cent. pa

  However, I was interested in why the hon. Gentleman chose these dates and asked for input unit costs. Taking the dividing year as 1979–80 (the last year of the Labour Government spending programme) the figures are:

  a. 1·7 per cent. pa

  b. 2·4 per cent. pa

  As I pointed out in the answer that I gave the hon. Gentleman on 17 December, changes in input volumes are an inadequate guide to the level of services the NHS can be expected to achieve since they do not reflect the continuing success of NHS management in increasing the efficiency with which it uses resources.

  In two of the five years of the last Labour Government NHS spending adjusted by the GDP deflator actually fell. The increase in the five years of the last Labour Government in real terms was 9 per cent. compared with about 60 per cent. in 12 years under this Government No amount of mathematical ingenuity on the part of the hon. Gentleman can hide the fact that real terms increases in spending under the Government is double that of the last

  Table 1

  Cost per patient using a bed

  Unit cost—£ per day

  Hospital type B—acute general hospitals: group 1

  Low

  Average

  High

  Number of hospitals

  Medical specialties:

  Paediatrics

  74·37

  124·38

  179·81

  13

  Geriatrics

  51·29

  64·44

  312·39

  9

  Other

  58·82

  83·25

  103·09

  15

  Surgical specialties:

  General surgery

  Urology

  102·74

  113·51

  141·21

  15

  Orthopaedics

  58·76

  95·68

  123·30

  13

  ENT

  68·10

  128·44

  250·80

  11

  Opthalmology

  67·34

  123·27

  158·96

  10

  Gynaecology

  79·39

  111·71

  134·26

  13

  Dental Specialties

  105·52

  200·76

  279·88

  10

  Neurosurgery

  151·45

  151·45

  151·45

  1

  Other surgical

  104·40

  113·43

  113·58

  2

  Maternity function

  Obstetrics

  109·59

  147·64

  543·97

  11

  GP

  109·71

  124·56

  125·11

  2

  Psychiatric specialties

  Mental handicap

  106·85

  106·85

  106·85

  1

  Other

  41·97

  63·39

  108·65

  5

  Other specialties:

  GP (excluding maternity)

  1·61

  1·61

  1·61

  1

  Radiotherapy

  80·86

  80·86

  80·86

  1

  Patheology-radiology

  8·20

  82·42

  113·81

  4

  364
  Labour Government—a Labour Government who cut the hospital building programme and reduced the pay of doctors and nurses in real terms.

  Rail Services
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he will respond to the fourth report of the Welsh Affairs Committee, Session 1990–91, "Rail Services in Wales (HC Paper 262).

  Mr. David Hunt
  I am pleased to announce that the response has been published today as Cm 1785.

  Operations
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what variations may be found between the costs of each type of operation carried out under the national health service in Wales; what is the average cost; and what are the highest and lowest costs.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  [holding answer 5 December 1991]: Information regarding the costs of each type of operation carried out under the national health service in Wales is not collected centrally.

  Data relating to specialty costs are available in the booklet "Welsh Health Costing Returns" and the latest version of this, for 1989–90, is available in the Library of the House. However, for ease of reference the following tables provide some information from the booklet giving high and low costs, and average costs by specialty within the least heterogeneous group of Welsh hospitals—acute general hospitals group I (i.e. those which are the main general acute hospitals providing a wide range of in-patient and out-patient specialist services together with the necessary support services)—illustrating:

  (i) cost per patient using bed (in-patients) Table 1

  (ii) cost per day care attendance (day cases) Table 2

  (iii) cost per out-patient attendance. Table 3

  365

  Low

  Average

  High

  Number of hospitals

  Anaesthetics

  35·73

  170·56

  1,161·90

  3

  A and E

  10·24

  38·28

  74·36

  2

  Table 2

  Cost per day care attendance

  £ unit cost

  Hospital type B—acute general hospitals: group 1

  Low

  Average

  High

  Number of hospitals

  Medical specialties:

  Paediatrics

  33·64

  33·64

  33·64

  1

  Geriatrics

  22·20

  27·75

  35·37

  7

  Psychiatric specialties:

  Other

  8·92

  18·09

  24·42

  5

  Other specialties:

  Radiotherapy

  26·63

  26·63

  26·63

  1

  Table 3

  Cost per out-patient attendance

  £ unit cost

  Hospital type B—acute general hospitals: group 1

  Low

  Average

  High

  Number of hospitals

  Medical specialties:

  Paediatrics

  28·37

  42·05

  69·40

  14

  Geriatrics

  22·72

  38·34

  60·88

  11

  Other

  10·13

  25·75

  42·14

  15

  Surgical specialties:

  General surgery/urology

  23·36

  27·83

  37·34

  15

  Orthopaedics

  13·42

  24·83

  37·14

  14

  ENT

  14·64

  29·72

  44·22

  14

  Ophthalmology

  8·40

  20·32

  28·42

  12

  Gynaecology

  18·20

  27·09

  46·34

  13

  Dental specialties

  11·24

  22·46

  52·50

  13

  Neurosurgery

  3·02

  29·59

  169·22

  8

  Plastic surgery

  4·89

  10·61

  19·13

  10

  Other surgical

  7·93

  23·64

  29·22

  3

  Maternity function:

  Obstetrics

  15·87

  26·49

  229·36

  11

  GP

  18·87

  30·02

  35·96

  2

  Psychiatric specialties:

  Mental handicap

  26·87

  31·26

  40·17

  2

  Other

  13·63

  32·75

  95·64

  14

  Other specialties:

  Radiotherapy

  1·97

  41·41

  96·87

  13

  Path/Radiology

  2·70

  12·65

  43·81

  6

  Anaesthetics

  19·05

  46·96

  69·97

  4

  A& E

  12·78

  26·66

  27·06

  2

  Specialty costing in its current form was introduced in 1987–88 and represents the average cost of treating a broad range of conditions within each specialty grouping. This costing is undertaken annually by disaggregating total costs via a process of direct allocation and cost apportionment.

  Whilst it represents an improvement on the sort of "whole hospital" costing available prior to 1987–88, caution should be taken when using this information for comparison purposes since it does not take account of (i) differences in the case mix (in terms of condition, complexity and severity) within each specialty as between different hospitals which have an impact upon the levels and type of staffing and equipment necessary to provide appropriate care and (ii) differences in the range, age and
  366
  condition of the hospital accommodation which have an impact upon the pattern and overhead costs of service delivery. The averages shown should not therefore be regarded as normative standards against which efficiency or quality of service can be judged, since it must be recognised that a wide and complex range of factors need to be taken into account when making such assessments. However, authorities are encouraged when analysing their costs to explore those areas of service delivery where costing figures suggest significant differences between authorities.

  The specialty costing booklet for 1990–91 is due to be published in the new year, and it will be the last produced regarding the period prior to the NHS reforms. From 1991–92 onwards one of the benefits, indeed an imperative

  367
  of the NHS reforms, is that service providers will be obliged to cost their services more frequently, more accurately and in greater detail. To this end a major programme of investment in better information systems for resource management and case-mix costing purpose is currently under way. When fully implemented throughout Wales, these new systems will enable service providers to identify costs to sub-specialty levels—for example to "Diagnosis Related Groups" and, where necessary, to particular operations and procedures or even to individual patients, depending on the nature of the service contracts with purchasing authorities or GP fundholders.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Anthrax
  Mr. Hague
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what review he has undertaken of the anthrax regulations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  Following an outbreak in north Wales in 1989, the agriculture departments reviewed our arrangements for dealing with this disease. It was concluded that while the existing provisions were effective for the protection of animal and public health, the legislation should include some additional powers. These include powers to restrict the use of feedingstuffs, to require vaccinations where necessary and to move healthy animals to another place.

  The Anthrax Order 1991, which comes into force on 1 January 1992, incorporates these changes and clarifies responsibilities for dealing with anthrax, bringing the arrangements more into line with those for other diseases.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Pensions
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list all the changes made to the national insurance retirement pension since 1979, noting the date of implementation, the numbers affected and the full-year savings or cost, gross and net of savings or cost in other benefits.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The major changes and the effect of those changes made to the national insurance retirement pension since 1979 are as follows:

  1. November 1980—pensions uprating

  Alteration of statutory up-rating requirement to increase by prices, rather than whichever was the higher of prices or earnings. Affected all in receipt of retirement pension. Gross savings £65 million (1980–81).

  2. December 1984—married women's half-test

  Abolition of married women's half-test for those women who reached age 60 before 6 April 1979. Affected 25,000 women. Gross cost £30 million—net £25 million (1985–86).

  3. December 1984—hospital in-patients

  Husbands of married women in hospital treated as dependants for hospital downrating purposes in all cases. Implemented retrospectively April 1989. Actual numbers affected and costs not known.

  4. April 1988—time limits

  Time limits for claiming Retirement Pension extended from 3 to 12 months. Delayed claims can be backdated up to a 12 month absolute limit. Affected 27,000 potential cases. Gross cost estimated to be £2·5 million
  368
  in first year (1988–89).

  5. October 1989—earnings rule

  Abolition of retirement pensions earnings rule for men between age 65–69 and women between age 60–64. Resulted in 115,000 new claims and increased the rate of pension for a further 2,500 pensioners whose pension was reduced on account of the earnings rule. Gross cost £300 million (1990–91).

  Notes:

  1) Estimates of the net cost and savings on other benefits are not available, except for item 2.

  2) Records of ongoing costs are not retained for most benefits due to the expense of collating the information. The amounts quoted therefore apply to the information available at the time the change was implemented.

  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what would be(a) the first year and (b) the full year cost of raising the retirement pension by £5 per week for a single person and by £8 per week for a married person (i) in 1991–92 and (ii) 1992–93, including increases in means-tested and national insurance benefits for Great Britain.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The gross cost would be £3·0 billion in 1991–92 and provisional estimates suggest that the gross cost will be the same in 1992–93.

  Mr. Tom Clarke
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) what is the statutory instrument which links benefits to the category A basic retirement pension; and what would be(a) the first year and (b) the full year cost, net of tax, of raising by £5 per week for a single person and by £8 per week for a married person the retirement pension and (i) each linked benefit, (ii) each linked and means-tested benefit so that all of the people on linked benefits receive the increase, (iii) each of the linked benefits at the same level as the retirement pension, (iv) each of the linked benefits at the same level as the retirement pension and means-tested benefits so that all of the people on these linked benefits receive the increase, (1) for 1991–92 and (2) 1992–93, in each case including and excluding those below retirement age;

  (2) What would be the numbers of people affected above and below retirement age by raising by £5 per week for a single person and by £8 per week for a married person, the retirement pension and (a) each benefit linked by statute to the Category A Basic Retirement Pension, (b) each linked and means-tested benefit so that all of the people on linked benefits receive the increase, (c) each of the linked benefits at the same level as the retirement pension and (d) each of the linked benefits at the same level as the retirement pension and means-tested benefits so that all of the people on these linked benefits receive the increase, for Great Britain in 1991–92, listing separately the numbers on each benefits, including and excluding those below the retirement age.

  Miss Widdecombe
  [holding answer 3 December 1991]: The following statutory provisions link the rate of other contributory benefits with the category A retirement pension: sections 14, 15, 25, 26 and 29 of the Social Security Act 1975 and sections 6, 7, 8, 13 and 14 of the Social Security Pensions Act 1975.

  The full-year net benefit cost of raising the category A, B, C and D basic retirement pensions by £5 for a single person and £3 for a category BL pension would be £1·84 billion in 1991–92 and £1·64 billion net of income tax. Detailed estimates for 1992–93 are not yet available.

  The full year costs of the other options in 1991–92 are as follows:
  369

  Table 1—Those at or above state pension age

  £ billion

  Net benefit cost

  Net of tax cost

  RP

  IVB

  WB

  RP

  IVB

  WB

  (i) Each linked benefit

  1·84

  0·07

  0·01

  1·64

  0·07

  0·01

  (ii) Each linked and income related benefit increased too

  2·47

  0·09

  0·01

  2·27

  0·09

  0·01

  At this level of rounding the costs of options (iii) and (iv)—which cover only linked benefits paid at the same rate of category A retirement pension—are the same as (i) and (ii) respectively.

  Table 2 Those below state pension age.

  £ billion

  Net benefit cost

  Net of tax cost

  IVB

  WB

  IS

  IVB

  WB

  IS

  (i) each linked benefit

  0·25

  0·05

  0·00

  0·25

  0·04

  0·00

  (ii) each linked and income related benefit increased too

  0·33

  0·07

  0·05

  0·33

  0·06

  0·05

  (iii) each linked benefit at same level as RP

  0·25

  0·03

  0·00

  0·25

  0·02

  0·00

  (iv) linked benefits at same level income related benefits increased too

  0·33

  0·04

  0·05

  0·33

  0·03

  0·05

  10 million people would be affected by raising the Category A, B, C and D Basic Retirements Pension by £5 for a single person and £3 for a Category BL Pension in 1991–92. 1·15 million benefit units would receive less Income Support as a result of this increase; 1·6 million benefit units would receive less housing benefit and 2·35 million benefit units would receive less Community Charge Benefit (some of these benefit units would receive less from both benefits). The numbers of people (benefit units for income related benefits) affected by the other options are as follows:

  Table 3: Those at or above state pension age (millions)

  RP

  IVB

  WB

  IS

  HB

  CCB

  (a) Benefits linked to category A RP

  10·00

  0·25

  0·05

  1·15

  1·65

  2·40

  (b) Linked benefit plus income related benefits increased too

  10·00

  0·25

  0·05

  —

  —

  —

  Note: In option (a) those on IS, HB and CCB see reductions in their income related benefits when they receive the increase in their contributory benefit; this does not happen in option (b) At this level of rounding options (c) and (d)—which cover only linked benefits paid at the same rate of Category A Retirement Pension—the numbers are the same as (a) and (b) respectively.

  Table 4 those below state pension age (millions)

  IVB

  WB

  IS

  HB

  CCB

  (a) Benefits linked to category A RP

  1·10

  0·30

  0·10

  0·25

  0·35

  (b) Linked benefit plus income related benefits increased too

  1·10

  0·30

  10·15

  10·05

  10·00

  (c) Linked benefits at same level as category A RP

  1·10

  0·20

  0·10

  0·15

  0·30

  (d) Linked benefits at same level as category A RP plus income related benefits increased too

  1·10

  0·20

  10·15

  10·15

  10·00

  Notes:

  In table (4) numbers shown on IS, HB or CCB as affected by the changes for options (a) and (c) are those who would not receive the full £5 or £8 per week due to reductions in income related benefits. Those cases marked with a ' are those men aged 60 to 64 who gain from the increase in the pensioner premium for income related benefit of £5 and £8 per week.

  Unemployment benefit and sickness benefit paid to those over state pension age are linked statutorily to the basic category A retirement pension but the numbers of people in receipt of these benefits are comparatively very small and are not included in these estimates.
  370

  RP is all categories of retirement pension.

  IVB is invalidity benefit.

  WB is widows benefit.

  IS is income support.

  HB is housing benefit.

  CCB is community charge benefit.

  Local Offices (Regrading)
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what proposals are being considered for the regrading of the DSS offices covering Cunninghame, North constituency.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Operational matters concerning Benefits Agency offices are a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Invalid Care Allowance
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the estimated cost of extending receipt of invalid care allowance for a further eight weeks to carers after the death of their dependant; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The estimated cost would be £2·4 million in a full year.

  Carers
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what would be the cost of restoring the right to claim unemployment benefit for carers who have ceased to care; and whether he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The cost of preserving entitlement to unemployment benefit for the estimated 2,600 former carers who seek work and who satisfied the contribution conditions prior to caring would be about £2 million in a full year.

  Expenditure
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will break down the real increases or decreases at 1991 prices in expenditure for all benefits from 1979 to 1991 showing what amount and proportion is
  371
  attributable to (a) a rise or fall in the real level of benefit, (b) a rise or fall in the numbers claiming benefits and (c) other factors.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information requested could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Earnings and Benefits
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will state the level of national average earnings for each year since 1979, the level of supplementary benefit/income support for a single unemployed adult aged over 25 years for each of these years, and the percentage the latter represents of the former for each year.

  A

  B

  C

  D

  Date of uprating

  Benefit date

  Average weekly earnings

  Percentage of column B/column C

  November 1979

  18·30

  114·10

  16·0

  November 1980

  21·30

  135·10

  15·8

  November 1981

  23·25

  149·50

  15·6

  November 1982

  25·70

  160·60

  16·0

  November 1983

  26·80

  175·30

  15·3

  November 1984

  28·05

  187·40

  15·0

  November 1985

  29·50

  199·50

  14·8

  July 1986

  29·80

  210·90

  14·1

  April 1987

  30·40

  224·00

  13·6

  April 1988

  33·40

  245·80

  13·6

  April 1989

  34·90

  269·50

  12·9

  April 1990

  36·70

  295·60

  12·4

  April 1991

  39·65

  318·90

  12·4

  Explanatory Notes:

  Column A: Date of each uprating.

  Column B: Supplementary benefit scale rate for a 25-year-old householder from 1979 to 1987. From April 1988, this is the income support rate for a single person aged 25 or over.

  Column C: Average earnings of all adult males (Source: New Earnings Survey).

  Column D: Percentage of the benefit rates (Column B) compared to the average weekly earnings (Column C).

  Mortgage Interest Relief
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the total expenditure over the last 12 months in benefits paid to unemployed persons to assist with mortgage repayments; and what is the total number of individuals who have claimed mortgage relief over this period.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Help with mortgage interest is given through income support. The estimated amount included in income support for unemployed persons for mortgage interest in 1990, the latest year for which information is available, is £207 million, paid to some 88,000 claimants.

  Note: The estimates are rounded to the nearest 1 million and 1,000 claimants.

  Source: Income Support Annual Statistical Enquiry, May 1990.

  Crisis Loans
  Mr. Bill Michie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what guidelines he issues as to whether the inability to repay should take precedence over the crisis need when refusing a crisis loan.

  Miss Widdecombe
  No guidelines are necessary. The Secretary of State's directions require social fund officers to decide whether a crisis need exists before looking at the question of an applicant's ability to repay.
  372
  Miss Widdecombe
  The figures requested are in the following table.

  The table lists supplementary benefits rates for a single householder aged 25 up to 1987. This rate is not however the one paid to all of the client group. Across all age groups, approximately 52 per cent. of single unemployed claimants were non-householders (May 1987 annual statistical inquiry). This group received a lower rate of benefit. Separate figures relating to the over-25 age group are not available.

  It should be noted that in the period from April 1988 (when income support was introduced) to April 1991, the average weekly earnings of all adult males rose by 30 per cent.

  Poll Tax
  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are his Department's estimates of the costs of deducting poll tax payments from benefits in each of the years 1989, 1990 and 1991.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The administration of income support is a matter for Mr. Michael Richard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  State Earnings-related Pensions
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will estimate the total cost to the national insurance fund in a full year in(a) 1991–92 and (b) 1992–93 of the 2 per cent. banded earnings offered as an incentive to opt out of SERPs, for Great Britain.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information is contained in appendix 7 of the report by the Government Actuary on the drafts of the Social Security Benefits Uprating Order and the Social Security (Contributions) Rerating Order which was laid before the House on 4 December.

  Cold Weather Payments
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what recent consultations he has had concerning the operation of the advance warning system available to
  373
  inform potential recipients of special cold weather payments that the temperature trigger points had been reached; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Regular consultations on the cold weather payments scheme take place between the Meteorological Office and the Department. The new elements of the scheme are being monitored particularly closely.

  Mr. Martlew
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) how many people will receive cold weather payments from the social fund following the recent spell of cold weather;

  (2) how many people who would have been eligible for payment will not receive the £6 payment because the area of the country they lived in did not fully meet the temperature criteria of the scheme during the recent spell of cold weather.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Following the recent spell of cold weather 1,432,044 cold weather payments have been authorised out of an estimated total of 2,600,000 people, who would have been entitled to a payment if every area of the country had met the temperature criteria.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list by United Kingdom standard region, and by Benefits Agency administrative division, the numbers of recipients of cold weather payments in the week commencing 9 December.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The following table sets out, by individual weather station, the number of cold weather payments authorised during the recent cold spell. The information is not held by Benefits Agency administrative division, and could be obtained in this form only at disproportionate cost.

  Cold Weather Payments

  Station

  Period

  Payments

  Bedford RAE

  5–11 December

  46,879

  Birmingham AP

  5–11 December

  192,901

  Boscombe Down

  6–12 December

  6,165

  Brize Norton

  6–12 December

  36,036

  Coningsby

  6–12 December

  8,234

  Dumfries/Drungans

  5–11 December

  3,456

  Easthampstead

  6–12 December

  21,696

  Eskdalemuir

  3–9 December

  3,530

  Finningley

  5–11 December

  68,911

  Gatwick AP

  6–12 December

  21,474

  Honington

  6–12 December

  8,078

  Leeming

  5–11 December

  86,012

  Lyneham

  6–12 December

  13,394

  Marham

  6–12 December

  10,165

  Shawbury

  5–11 December

  68,611

  Stansted

  6–12 December

  70,865

  Watnall

  6–12 December

  113,978

  Wyton

  6–12 December

  18,807

  Clifynydd

  8–14 December

  18,336

  Coltishall

  7–13 December

  25,222

  Cwmbargoed

  7–13 December

  20,838

  Heathrow AP

  8–14 December

  382,487

  Leeds WC

  7–13 December

  93,812

  Waddington

  7–13 December

  55,445

  Wattisham

  8–14 December

  22,161

  Yeovilton

  8–14 December

  14,551

  Total

  1,432,044

  Mr. Martlew
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy to waive the seven-day qualifying period for cold weather payments to ensure that all those eligible under the scheme receive a £6 payment.
  374
  Miss Widdecombe
  Seven days of cold weather is a fair representation of a sustained period which is likely to lead to extra heating costs. We have no plans to reduce the qualifying period.

  Over-80s
  Mr. Martlew
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what plans he has to uprate the basic state pensions for people over the age of 80 years.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Basic state pensions for those over 80 will be uprated next April in line with prices. In addition, expenditure on income-related benefits for pensioners over 80 and for disabled low-income pensioners will be increased by £60 million in a full year over and above the normal uprating.

  Unemployment Benefit
  Mr. Roger King
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what earnings rule currently applies to unemployment benefit; and whether he plans any changes.

  Mr. Scott
  Unemployment benefit is not payable for any day on which earnings exceed £2, or for any week in which earnings exceed the lower earnings limit for national insurance contributions (currently £52 a week).

  The daily earnings rule does not apply to payments made to individuals for certain special purposes notably allowances paid to members of the Territorial Army, coastguards, lifeboatmen and part-time firemen. We intend shortly to consult the Social Security Advisory Committee on extending exemption to local authority councillors in respect of their basic and special responsibility allowances.

  Pension Schemes (Fraud)
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what action he intends to take to deal with the potential for fraud in pension schemes; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  [holding answer 6 December 1991]: Safeguards already exist in trust law to protect the interests of members of occupational pension schemes. Trustees have a duty to act at all time in the interests of all the beneficiaries of the scheme in accordance with the trust deed.

  In addition, the Government will bring forward, early next year, regulations to restrict to 5 per cent. the level of self-investment. Action is in hand to produce a booklet for pension fund trustees, setting out their role and legal responsibilities. Regulations extending the existing disclosure requirements to include information as to whether each trustee has received a copy of the booklet, will be introduced.

  Benefits
  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what would be(a) the first year and (b) the full year cost of raising one-parent benefit and widowed mother's allowance by 32p, (i) for 1991–92 and (ii) 1992–93, (1) including increases in means-tested benefits and (2) without increases in means-tested benefits, in Great Britain.
  375
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what would be(a) the first year and (b) the full-year cost of raising one-parent benefit and widowed mother's allowance by (i) £0·34 and (ii) £0·36 for (1) 1991–92 and (2) 1992–93, (x) including increases in means-tested benefits, and (y) without increases in means-tested benefits, in Great Britain.

  Miss Widdecombe
  [holding answer 16 December 1991]: The cost of increasing these benefits by these amounts for each week in 1991–92 and 1992–93 is given in the table:

  £ million

  1991–92

  1992–93

  32 pence per week

  (1) Including increases in income related benefits

  One parent benefit

  23

  24

  Widowed mother's allowance

  1

  1

  (2) Excluding increases in income related benefits

  One parent benefit

  7

  8

  Widowed mother's allowance

  1

  1

  34 pence per week

  (1) Including increases in income related benefits

  One parent benefit

  24

  25

  Widowed mother's allowance

  1

  1

  (2) Excluding increases in income related benefits

  One parent benefit

  8

  8

  Widowed mother's allowance

  1

  1

  36 pence per week

  (1) Including increases in income related benefits

  One parent benefit

  25

  27

  Widowed mother's allowance

  1

  1

  (2) Excluding increases in income related benefits

  One parent benefit

  8

  9

  Widowed mother's allowance

  1

  1

  Note:

  The first year benefit cost is the same in this case as the full-year cost for 1991–92.

ENERGY

  River Wyre Barrage
  Mr. Mans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make it his policy to consult the farming community and environmental groups over the proposed barrage across the River Wyre in Lancashire when he considers the feasibility study of this project.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Yes. All interested parties will be consulted on the results of the preliminary feasibility study of a proposed barrage across the River Wyre.

  Mr. Mans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he expects to publish the results of the feasibility study into the proposed barrage across the River Wyre in Lancashire; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Moynihan
  A report on a preliminary feasibility study of a proposed barrage across the River Wyre has been received by my Department. This report is now being considered and will be published in due course.

  Oil Drilling
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what information he has on recent technological developments on long-reach horizontal drilling for oil; how many horizontal wells are currently operational off the coast of the United Kingdom; what information he has on future plans for horizontal wells; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Most fields in the United Kingdom sector of the North sea have been developed with a proportion of the wells deviated to angles between 30 and 75 degrees from the vertical. Over the last three years improved understanding of the technical factors relevant to high angle drilling has enabled an increasing number of wells to be drilled into the productive areas of reservoirs at angles of up to 90 degrees. It is estimated that to date about 40 such wells, have been drilled or are currently drilling in the UKCS. Since, depending on circumstances, economic recovery from horizontal wells can be significantly higher than from conventional wells, I would expect the incidence of such drilling to increase in the future as knowledge and experience of the techniques involved improve further.

  Dounreay
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he has yet received the report from Dr. Wyn Llewelyn into the disappearance of a quantity of enriched uranium at Dounreay; if the findings of his report will be published; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  A report on the investigation into the accountancy discrepancy at Dounreay has not been received by my Department. I will consider what information might be provided when I have received the report and have studied its findings.

  Coal Mining Subsidence
  Mr. Barron
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he expects to table the statutory instruments necessary to implement aspects of the Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The Secretary of State has made the following statutory instruments under powers granted by the Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991:

  The Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991 (Commencement) Order 1991 (SI 1991/2508)

  The Coal Mining Subsidence (Notices and Claims) Regulations 1991 (SI 1991/2509)

  The Coal Mining Subsidence (Preventive Measures and Rates of Interest) Order 1991 (SI 1991/2510)

  The commencement order brought the Act into force on 30 November 1991. The other two instruments also came into force on that date.

  The Government have no plans to make any further instruments at present, but will keep the need for further instruments under review.

  Electricity Supply
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (1) what discussions he has had with the director general of OFFER regarding his report on the distribution and transmission system performance in the electricity supply
  377
  industries of England. Wales and Scotland 1990–91, the league table of relative interruptions per 100 customers included in it and the powers available to the director general to improve the performance of the poorest performing distribution companies;

  (2) what consultations he has had with the director general of the Office of Electricity Regulation concerning the level of supply interruptions to electricity consumers in the South Wales Electricity company area; and what remedial actions have been proposed by the director general.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My right hon. Friend and I meet the Director General of Electricity Supply from time to time and we discuss a range of issues.

  We welcome the publication of information of the kind included in the director general's report on the reliability of the electricity supply industry's transmission and distribution systems. This is a good illustration of the openness of the new regulatory regime. The director general has already stated that he will consider this information carefully as part of the transmission and distribution price control reviews that he will be undertaking.

  Caminus Energy Consultants
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what consultations he has had with the director general of OFFER regarding the recent study commissioned by OFFER from Caminus Energy Consultants of Cambridge; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My right hon. Friend and I meet the Director General of Electricity Supply from time to time and discuss issues of mutual interest. The investigation into pool prices is a matter for the director general.

  Coal Mining Consortium.
  Mr. Andy Stewart
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what discussions he has had with the Coal Mining Consortium about its proposals to apply for all or part of a privatised coal industry and to enable employees in the industry to become shareholders.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I met representatives of the Mineworkers Consortium specifically to listen to their proposals concerning British Coal's Monktonhall colliery. We will be considering a number of options for the privatisation of the coal industry; however, no decisions will be taken on the form or timing of the sale until after the next general election.

  Electricity Generation
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what consultations he has had with the director general of the Office of Electricity Regulation concerning the impact on the promotion of competition in electricity generation in England and Wales of National Power's purchase of the Deeside power station project at Shotton, Clwyd from ASEA Brown Boveri; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My right hon. Friend and I meet the Director General of Electricity Supply from time to time and discuss issues of mutual interest. The 378
  implications of mergers in the electricity generating industry are a matter for the Office of Fair Trading in consultation with OFFER.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  Fax Paper
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the supply of House of Commons fax paper to hon. Members.

  Mr. MacGregor
  The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee has previously concluded that the present range of stationery items held in the Serjeant at Arms Stores should not be extended beyond the primary function of supplying writing paper and envelopes identified by the crowned portcullis. Facsimile paper is not held in the stores.

  Written Questions
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will publish a table showing in descending order the 30 Members who tabled the most written questions in Session 1990–91, indicating how many were tabled.

  Mr. MacGregor
  The precise information requested, on questions tabled, is not available. The Members receiving the most answers to written questions, as recorded on the House of Commons Library's POLIS database, were as follows:

  Number of questions

  1. The hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn)

  928

  2. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond)

  646

  3. The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson)

  593

  4. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan)

  560

  5. The hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen)

  527

  6. The hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen)

  465

  7. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell)

  429

  8. The hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Hinchliffe)

  393

  9. The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. S. Hughes)

  384

  10. The hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. D. Clark)

  359

  11. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Austin Mitchell)

  353

  12. The hon. Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill)

  345

  13. The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley)

  339

  14. The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. B. Jones)

  329

  15. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. R. Davies)

  314

  16. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael)

  301

  17. The hon. Member for Paisley, South (Mr. McMaster)

  275

  18. The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell)

  242

  19. The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood)

  237

  20. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett)

  230

  21. The hon. Member for Ncwham, North West (Mr. T. Banks)

  218

  22. The hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd)

  216

  379

  Number of questions

  23. The hon. Member for Newcastle Upon Tyne, Central (Mr. Cousins)

  216

  24. The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman)

  212

  25. The hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. John D. Taylor)

  210

  26. The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. McAllion)

  209

  27. The hon. Member for Coventry, South East (Mr. Nellist)

  205

  28. The hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden)

  203

  29. The hon. Member for Southport (Mr. Fearn)

  197

  30. The hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Battle)

  191

  Disabled People (Access)
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects work to begin on the installation of a chairlift on the staircase leading to the Grand Committee Room and the Jubilee Room to facilitate access for elderly and disabled people.

  Mr. MacGregor
  Work has already begun on the detailed planning required to install a stairlift on the staircase leading to the Grand Committee Room. I would expect the design work consultations and tendering to be complete by March 1992 allowing the contractor to begin by April.

  Sunday Trading
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Lord President of the Council when his office last scheduled a meeting with Viscount Brentford concerning Sunday trading; when he last met Viscount Brentford; when he next expects to meet Viscount Brentford; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have had requests for meetings both from Lord Brentford in his capacity as chairman of the Keep Sunday Special Campaign and from the director of the Shopping Hours Reform Council. I have already made it clear that the Government see no prospect for legislation on Sunday trading in this Session of Parliament, and it would be inappropriate for me to enter into any discussions with either organisation as the issues are for my right hon. Friend the Minister of State at the Home Office. I therefore declined both requests at this stage.

  Mrs. Eleanor Laing
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will publish a list of the previous employers of his special adviser, Mrs. Eleanor Laing.

  Mr. MacGregor
  The information requested is as follows:

  Lindsays W. S., solicitors

  Herbert Smith and Co., solicitors

  Lane and Partners, solicitors

  George Wimpey PLC

  Shopping Hours Reform Council

  Palace of Westminster (Occupation)
  Mr. Andrew Hargreaves
  To ask the Lord President of the Council how many rooms at the House of Commons and its outbuildings and how many square feet have been occupied by(a) media staff and (b) hon. Members over the last three years.
  380
  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 17 December 1991]: Information in the form requested is not readily available.

  However, work commissioned last year by the New Building Sub-Committee as part of its work to prepare the brief for phase II of the New Parliamentary Building indicates that Members occupy some 10,000 sq metres, the media about 1,500 sq metres. Further information is available in the Services Committee's Second Report 1990–91 "New Parliamentary Building (Phase II): The Initial Brief (HC 551) memorandum 3.

  Mr. Andrew Hargreaves
  To ask the Lord President of the Council how many security passes have been issued in each of the last three years for(a) members of staff at the House of Commons, (b) the media and (c) allied departments.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 17 December 1991]: I regret that this information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Office Costs Allowance
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects to receive the Top Salaries Review Body report on the office costs allowance.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 19 December 1991]: The conduct of the review is a matter for the Top Salaries Review Body, but I understand that it is proceeding according to the agreed timetable.

DEFENCE

  Submarines
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence(a) what will be the cost, (b) when work will commence and (c) how long it will take, to correct a major design fault on the submarines HMS Upholder, HMS Unseen, HMS Ursula and HMS Unicorn; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington (Mr. Boyes) on 13 December at column 590.

  Simulated Attacks on Shipping
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the pre-flight briefing of the crew of the Tornado aircraft which crashed in the North sea on 16 August 1990 included plans for simulated attacks on shipping.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  No.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what are the specified minimum horizontal and vertical separation distances between an attacking aircraft and a target vessel doing simulated low-level attacks on civilian shipping targets of opportunity.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The specified minimum separation distance from civilian shipping for aircraft in low level flight over the sea is 250 ft both horizontally and vertically.

  Weapons Exchange
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list, by year for the last four years, and for 1991 to date, the countries with which his Department has carried out weapons exchanges for testing purposes, showing in his answer(a) those that his Department have received from other countries and (b) those that his Department have sent to other countries.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Such information is not held centrally and could not be assembled without disproportionate cost.

  Buster Crabb
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the files and information on the Buster Crabb affair will be released for public scrutiny.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Any files and information held by the Ministry of Defence on the Buster Crabb affair will be considered for release at the appropriate time, under the criteria of the Public Records Acts of 1958 and 1967.

  Nuclear Test Veterans
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he proposes to investigate the claims for compensation made by the service men exposed to radiation during the Christmas Island tests.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The Ministry of Defence will pay appropriate compensation whenever the Crown's legal liability is established. There is, however, no firm evidence to show that any ill-health suffered by those who attended the test was caused by their participation. This is supported by the last report on the subject by the National Radiological Protection Board—which continues to accumulate data and will produce a further report.

  Nuclear Weapons
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many special studies on(a) the safety in storage, (b) the safety in transport, (c) the safety in deployment and (d) the mechanics of dismantlement of nuclear weapons have been conducted by his Department since 1979; and what has been the respective cost of such studies.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The safety of our nuclear weapons is under continuous review to ensure that stringent safety standards are maintained in all such areas. It is not possible to identify separately the costs of studies from the general costs of work on safety.

  Nuclear Submarines
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether United Kingdom citizens are permitted access(a) to board Polaris submarines, (b) to visit the Faslane royal naval base and (c) to the Trident nuclear submarine base under construction at Coulport; whether any foreign nationals of countries (i) which are NATO member states and (ii) which are outside NATO have been permitted to visit British nuclear submarines and bases during the past month; and what criteria are adopted to permit visits to such submarines and bases.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Visits by both United Kingdom and foreign non-entitled personnel to service units and 382
  establishments, including vists to nuclear submarines and their shore support facilities, are considered on a case by case basis. The only visit by non-NATO nationals to the Clyde submarine base, including a visit to an alongside Polaris submarine, in the last month was by General Lobov. The criterion by which requests for all visits is judged is whether such a visit will assist in meeting defence or foreign policy objectives.

  M25 (Military Vehicle Breakdown)
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he has on the number of accidents caused by motorists rerouted from the M25 on 1 December as a result of the closure of the motorway because of the breakdown of a military transport vehicle.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  None.

  Defence Equipment
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will provide an approximate in-service date for(a) the GWS MOD 1 Sea Wolf vertical launch ship system/missile, (b) Sonar 2093, (c) the type 23 frigate command system, (d) the AS90 self-propelled howitzer, (e) the high-velocity missile, (f) the Rapier field standard C system, (g) the Trigat medium-range system, (h) the counter battery radar, (i) the European fighter aircraft, (j) the Blue Vixen radar and (k) the Harrier T10.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Approximate in-service dates are as follows:

  Approximate in-service date

  (a) GWS MOD 1 Sea Wolf vertical launch ship system/missile

  In-service

  (b) Sonar 2093

  Early 1990s

  (c) Type 23 frigate command system

  Mid 1990s

  (d) AS90 self-propelled howitzer

  Early 1990s

  (e) High-velocity missile

  Early 1990s

  (f) Rapier field standard C system

  Mid-1990s

  (g) TRIGAT medium-range system

  Mid-1990s

  (h) Counter battery radar

  Late 1990s

  (i) European fighter aircraft

  Mid-1990s

  (j) Blue Vixen radar

  Early 1990s

  (k) Harrier T10

  Mid-1990s

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the present estimated total cost of the procurement programme for(a) the GWS MOD 1 Sea Wolf vertical launch missile/ship system, (b) the Sonar 2093, (c) the Challenger improvement programme, (d) TOW thermal imaging, (e) the Rapier field standard C system, (f) the Trigat medium range system, (g) the Tornado GR1 mid-life update, (h) the RN EH 101 helicopter and (i) the Blue Vixen radar.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  I refer the hon. Member to my answer to him on 28 November at column 648. The other figures requested are classified and commercially confidential apart from that for the Tornado GR1 mid-life update programme, where the estimated total procurement cost—at 1990–91 average outturn prices, not including in-service support costs—is £550 million.

  Hydrographic Office
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what is the annual income generated by the Hydrographic Office through chart sales in each year since 1980; and what proportion are exports;

  (2) what resources will be dedicated to the metrification of maritime charts within the Hydrographic Office:

  (3) whether the metrification of maritime charts will be completed by 1999.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  These are matters for the chief executive of the Hydrographic Office Defence Support Agency. I have asked him to write to the hon. Gentleman.

  Walter Somers Ltd.
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will now state the dates on which the two telephone conversations between Walter Somers Ltd. and his Department's metallurgical expert took place; what was established by the conversations; what advice was provided by his Department's expert to Walter Somers Ltd.; and how the expert identified himself or herself to Walter Somers Ltd.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The telephone conversations took place on 16 and 22 June 1988. On the basis of the available information they established that the steel tubes which Walter Somers Ltd. proposed to export to Iraq were almost certainly pressure vessels of some kind whose function was unclear. No advice was provided to Walter Somers Ltd. by the Department's expert. At this distance in time it is not possible to say how the expert identified himself to Walter Somers Ltd. other than be name, though his normal practice was to indicate that he worked for the Ministry of Defence.

  Resettlement
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many service resettlement officers are currently in post; and what is the establishment level for service resettlement officers.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The information requested is as follows:

  Strength

  Establishment

  Royal Navy

  Naval Resettlement Information Officers (civilian)

  8

  8

  Education and Resettlement Officers1

  27

  27

  Army

  Senior Resettlement Advice Officers

  7

  7

  Resettlement Advice Officers2

  16

  11

  RAF

  Professionally Qualified Education Officers 3

  86

  86

  Notes:

  1 Seven of these are at sea; in addition, every ship which does not have a full-time education and resettlement officer on its establishment appoints an officer to undertake these responsibilities on a part-time basis.
  384
  2 In addition, 27 resettlement advice officers are deployed on a part-time basis.

  3 This figure relates to the number of RAF professionally qualified education officers who have resettlement as a significant element of their responsibilities.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment is made of the effectiveness of the current programmes of retraining and resettlement for service personnel.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The resettlement centres carry out regular surveys of personnel who have attended their courses, to try and establish the relevance to their subsequent employment of the training they have received. Some of the results were summarised in the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Ms. Short) on 29 November at columns 683–86.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what changes have occurred to his resettlement policy for service personnel in the last 12 months.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  It remains our policy to provide a comprehensive resettlement service and we are making provision to extend this service to cater for the increased numbers who will be leaving over the coming years. A temporary post of director general resettlement has been established within the Ministry of Defence to direct and coordinate this activity over the months ahead.

  Service Accommodation
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) of 5 November,Official Report, column 96, how many houses are in the process of being sold; and what is the average length of time for which these houses have been empty.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  No later figures than those previously given are yet available for the total number of houses in the process of being sold. The average length of time these houses have been vacant could only be calculated at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much surplus service property will be made available to housing associations to give temporary help to service personnel in severe housing need;

  (2) pursuant to his reply of 22 November, Official Report, column 355, if he will list each announcement made to date about the transfer of service married quarters to housing associations.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Discussions with housing associations are continuing and announcements will be made in due course.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many service personnel have purchased their homes through the services' discount scheme in each(a) year and (b) quarter since its inception.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Since the services discount scheme was introduced, the following numbers of service personnel have purchased their homes at a discount:
  385

  Financial year

  Quarter 1

  Quarter 2

  Quarter 3

  Quarter 4

  Total

  1984–85

  —

  —

  —

  —

  153

  1985–86

  —

  —

  —

  —

  308

  1986–87

  —

  —

  —

  —

  438

  1987–88

  —

  —

  —

  —

  452

  1988–89

  —

  —

  —

  —

  562

  1989–90

  —

  —

  —

  —

  610

  1990–91

  200

  247

  138

  141

  726

  11991–92

  124

  158

  —

  —

  282

  1 To 30 September 1991.

  In addition, some 500 properties are in the process of being sold through the discount scheme.

  Quarterly figures are available only from financial year 1990–91.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the current backlog of anavoidable and essential repairs for service accommodation at Tidworth garrison.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The current backlog of maintenance for service accommodation at Tidworth garrison amounts to £8·7 million on unavoidable repairs and £2·3 million on essential repairs. An extensive modernisation programme is planned.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will state the location of those service properties that are currently being irregularly occupied.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Most service establishments throughout the United Kingom have some married quarters irregularly occupied, but the information is not held centrally.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the backlog of unavoidable and essential repairs for(a) single accommodation, (b) married quarters and (c) empty accommodation.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave on 14 November at column 671.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for East Lothian, (Mr. Home Robertson),Official Report, column 96, if he will publish the number and location of vacant married quarters that are awaiting (a) unavoidable and essential repairs and (b) urgent repairs.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the current expenditure to date on the work of the service housing task force.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  To date, expenditure on the work of the service housing task force, including stall costs, amounts to £173,500.

  Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment Vessels
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many orders for(a) type 23 frigates and (b) auxiliary oiler replenishment vessels will be placed in the next 10 years; and in which years they will be ordered.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  We hope to make an announcement on the outcome of the recent tender 386
  exercise for type 23 frigates early next year. We plan further orders of auxiliary oiler replenishment vessels, but no decisions have been taken on their size or timing. It is not our practice to disclose details about the longer-term internal planning assumptions for equipment orders.

  Homelessness
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what discussions he has had with local authorities regarding the acceptance by them of a certificate of impending discharge as evidence of impending homelessness.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The code of guidance on homelessness issued by the Department of Environment provides advice to local authorities on the acceptance of certificates of impending homelessness for service personnel who are shortly to leave the services. It is not normal practice to produce separate certification of impending discharge, but certification will be provided if it is requested by individual local authorities.

  "Options for Change"
  Mr. Menzies Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether officers and men discharged from the Army as a result of "Options for Change" outside the United Kingdom will be required to be responsible for the costs of their own furniture and movements expenses.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  When United Kingdom based service personnel and their families return from an overseas station on discharge they will do so at public expense. Their personal possessions will also be conveyed at public expense within the same limits as those returning on normal posting.

  Mr. Menzies Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is his estimate of the final civilian establishment of his Department once the proposals contained in "Options for Change" have been fully implemented.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  By 1997, the number of United Kingdom-based and locally entered civilians will be about 134,000.

  Mr. Menzies Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what will be the differences in the terms of redundancy offered to civilians as a result of the implementation of "Options for Change" from those that are offered to officers and men of the Army.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Redundancy payments to civil servants and military personnel are made under two quite separate arrangements, the principal civil service pension
  387
  scheme and the armed forces pension scheme. With both schemes, the benefit varies according to pay and length of service.

  The two schemes are different and, within each, different criteria apply. A direct comparison cannot, therefore, be made. The principal differences affecting benefits relate to the entitlement qualifications, the age at which pensions benefits come into payment and the relationship between benefits and earnings.

  Mr. Menzies Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the costs of redundancy as a result of the reduction in the civilian establishment of his Department once the proposals contained in "Options for Change" are fully implemented.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  It is too early to say what the scale, and therefore the costs, of redundancy arising from our plans to reduce civilian numbers will be.

  Rattan Cane Fenders
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will reconsider his Department's decision to terminate on 13 January the contract under which the workshop at Cardiff Institute for the Blind has provided rattan cane fenders for the use of the Navy worldwide.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The current contract for the supply of rattan fenders will continue and action is in hand to let a replacement contract with the Cardiff Institute for the Blind.

  Magnetic Treatment Facility, Faslane
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence why the magnetic treatment facility at Faslane has not been proceeded with; how much has been spent on it; and how degaussing will now be carried on.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave on 26 June at column 496. Work to define a more cost-effective solution to the requirement is under way. Approximately £15 million had been spent on the contract at the time of cancellation.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Beer
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he has any plans to implement section 43 of the Weights and Measures Act 1985.

  Mr. Leigh
  I have fought hard in Europe to retain the traditional British pint. I want to ensure that a liquid pint is what consumers get, in full. My view on consumer protection is that people should get what they think they are getting and what they pay for.

  In 1988 my Department made regulations on the measures to be used for serving beer with the aim of encouraging licensees to use the glass most appropriate to the type of beer they served and to help ensure a fair deal for the consumer. However, since then I have continued to receive reports from local authority trading standards departments showing that a significant proportion of the draught beer they have checked comprised considerably less than a pint of liquid beer. I have also received complaints from the public about this issue.
  388
  Accordingly, I now propose to implement section 43 of the Weights and Measures Act 1985 which provides that, in ascertaining the quantity of beer or cider under the Act the gas comprised in any form shall be disregarded. I shall be consulting consumers, the trade and the enforcement authorities about a timetable for this. This should be cheering news for beer drinkers everywhere.

  Swiss Research Policy
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will obtain for his departmental library a copy of the speech delivered by Professor H. Ursprung to the Royal Society on 27 November on Swiss research policy.

  Mr. Leigh
  A copy of Professor Ursprung's speech on Swiss research policy delivered to the Royal Society in November this year has been placed in the departmental library and also in the Library of the House of Commons.

  Japanese-owned Manufacturing
  Sir Tom Arnold
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what estimate he has made of the number of people employed in Japanese-owned manufacturing industry within the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Leigh
  From information available to my Department, based on announcements by the companies at the time of the investment, it is estimated that some 45,000 direct jobs have been created by Japanese manufacturing investment in the United Kingdom.

  EC-EFTA Agreement
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what provision has been made in the EC/EFTA agreement to establish the European economic area to provide grants and loans to(a) the Republic of Ireland, (b) Greece, (c) Portugal and (d) Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  Under the terms of the European economic area agreement, EFTA would set up a fund to assist the development of Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Greece, Portugal and specified regions of Spain. The fund would be managed by EFTA and comprise 500 mecu in grants over five years and an interest rate subsidy of 3 per cent. on 1·5 becu of loans to be repaid within 10 years.

  Credit Marketing
  Mr. Tim Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what effect he expects his proposals for new legislation on credit marketing to have on the housing market.

  Mr. Leigh
  People considering a mortgage would be given more information about the obligations involved and the consequences of not meeting those obligations.

  House of Fraser
  Mr. Hoyle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his answer of 4 December,Official Report, column 178, about the takeover of the House of Fraser, what steps he is taking to ensure that further relevant information is available.
  389
  Mr. Redwood
  My officials are in touch with regulators.

  Steel Production
  Mr. Terry Fields
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, further to his answer of 17 December,Official Report, column 113, what assessment he has made of the production performance at (a) Llanwern and (b) Ravenscraig before the closing of the hot strip facility.

  Mr. Leigh
  None. This is a matter for the board of British Steel.

  Mr. Terry Fields
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, further to his answer of 17 December,

  '000 tonnes

  end of:

  Steel stocks

  March 1989

  June 1989

  September 1989

  December 1989

  March 1990

  June 1990

  September 1990

  December 1990

  March 1991

  June 1991

  Plate1 held by:

  producers

  103

  95

  99

  103

  94

  101

  82

  110

  73

  116

  steel stockholders

  425

  410

  396

  419

  416

  417

  384

  340

  319

  288

  consumers

  121

  136

  150

  150

  165

  156

  151

  156

  156

  149

  Total

  649

  641

  645

  672

  675

  674

  617

  606

  548

  553

  Tubes and pipes held by:

  producers

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  steel stockholders

  126

  119

  111

  112

  92

  83

  88

  114

  81

  60

  consumers

  306

  347

  395

  407

  418

  391

  344

  319

  296

  267

  1 Plate in lengths, 3mm thick or over.

  2 Tonnage not available.

  Source: Producers' stocks information from the Iron and Steel Statistics Bureau. Stockholders' and consumers' information from the Central Statistical Office's Business Bulletin on the Steel Stocks and Consumption Inquiry.

  Iraq
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) of 12 December,Official Report, column 501, if he will set out (a) the end-use stated by Iraq for bismuth exports in 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985 and 1988, respectively, and (b) the reason for commercial confidentiality covering the sale of bismuth to Iraq in 1986.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  End user information is required to be submitted to DTI only 'for licensable exports.

  Information used to compile the Overseas Trade Statistics (OTS), is taken from Customs entries which importers, exporters or declarants on their behalf are required to render under sections 37 and 53 to 54 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979. Under common law information compulsorily required may only be used for the purposes for which it was obtained.

  Although the OTS does not provide names of importers or exporters, statistics for certain commodities may easily be attributed to specific traders by anyone knowledgeable in that market area; this is particularly a problem where the statistics are broken down by country of consignment or destination. In such circumstances the public release of information may give valuable commercial information to competitors. It is therefore treated in confidence.
  390
  Official Report, column 113, what is the average cost of production of an average tonne of steel at (a) Llanwern, (b) Teesside, (c) Dalzell and (d) Scunthorpe.

  Mr. Leigh
  This is a matter for the board of British Steel.

  Mr. Terry Fields
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is his latest estimate of the size of the steel stockpiles in the United Kingdom in the last two years of(a) steel pipes, (b) heavy plate and (c) light plate; and what proportion of each stockpile was imported.

  Mr. Leigh
  Available information is shown in the following table. Comprehensive information about light and heavy plates, an the proportion of stocks imported, is not collected.

  Mahogany
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what action he will take to prevent the further importation of mahogany from the Philippines; and how many such imports there have been since 1988.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The Government attach importance to the sustainable management of tropical forests. Imports from the Philippines are subject to the same controls as imports from other countries.

  Available statistics of imports since 1988 of mahogany from the Philippines are:

  m3

  metric tonnes

  £000

  1988

  980

  566

  252

  1989

  74

  40

  21

  1990

  308

  131

  126

  11991

  18

  12

  7

  1 January to October.

  Some other imports may have been accounted for under the residual codes within the SITC headings 247.52 and 248.5.

  Cumbria Action Team
  Dr. Cunningham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the proportion of the budget of the north-west regional office spent on administrative costs for the Cumbria action team.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 17 December 1991]: The Cumbria action team is involved in the co-ordination of a

  391
  wide range of Government initiatives, most of which are administered either from Manchester or London. 'These are not costed on a geographical basis and are in addition to the direct administrative costs of the action team. This is an inter-departmental body, led by DTI and the costs fall across participating Departments. The DTI direct cost element represents about 2 per cent. of the total DTI-North West's running costs.

  DTI schemes and services for business development

  Scheme

  Eligibility

  Level and type of assistance

  Innovation

  LINK

  Minimum one United Kingdom industrial partner and one United Kingdom science base partner. Pre-competitive, collaborative research.

  Up to 50 per cent, grant of eligible project costs.

  EUREKA

  Companies undertaking high technology R & D with at least one other company from a different EUREKA country.

  Up to 50 per cent, grant of eligible project costs.

  ATP (Advanced Technology Programmes)

  At least two firms or research organisations in collaboration. Pre-competitive research.

  Up to 50 per cent, grant of eligible project costs.

  Club R & D

  A group of companies RTOs, REs, in pre-competitive, collaborative research undertaken by a host organisation.

  Up to 50 per cent, of eligible project costs.

  SMART (Small Firms Merit Award for Research and Technology)

  Single United Kingdom firms with fewer than 50 employees. High risk innovative ideas.

  75 per cent, grant of project costs; max. £45,000.

  SPUR (Support for Projects Under Research)

  Single companies up to 500 employees. For new product and process development.

  Fixed 30 per cent, grant; max. £150,000.

  TAL (Technical Action Line)

  Single independent firms or groups with up to 500 employees. Some exclusions as in CI. Immediate technical problems.

  Tapering support for operation by RTCs and support of consultancy.

  MPT (Manufacturing Planning and Implementation Studies programme)

  Single companies up to 500 employees for planning the introduction of modern manufacturing systems.

  Fixed 50 per cent, grant for external advice up to £50,000 maximum.

  ROTTP (Regional Office Technology Transfer Programme)

  Public and private sector. Technology transfer

  Grant, underwriting, subsidy for SMEs to attend conferences.

  OTIS (Overseas Technical Information Service)

  United Kingdom Government and industry. Technology transfer

  Firms pay only variable cost arising from their use of service at present.

  OSTEMS (Overseas Science and Technology Expert Missions Scheme)

  United Kingdom industry, science base, research association. Technology transfer

  Approximately 50 per cent, grant.

  Regional Technology Centres

  RTCs are intended to provide technology transfer and training services to SMEs.

  Pump-priming. £75,000 over three years tapered funding DES pay 60 per cent.; DTI 40 per cent.

  AIT3 (Advanced IT Technology Transfer)

  Mainly contract work carried out by competitive tendering.

  100 per cent, funding.

  OSTT (Open Systems Technology Transfer)

  A variety of activities carried out by specialist consultants on short-term contracts.

  100 per cent, funding.

  Materials Matter

  Increasing awareness and transfer knowledge of new material technologies.

  Attendance at technology transfer events free for SMEs, but industrial contributions sought for clubs, support likely to be up to 50 per cent, funding.

  Other miscellaneous technology transfer activities under innovation budget

  United Kingdom organisations, especially those with up to 500 employees. Miscellaneous technology transfer projects.

  Up to 50 per cent, grant.

  Single European Market

  Single Market Campaign (info service/publicity and promotional materials)

  All firms, business support organisations intermediaries and HEIs.

  Free info service on single market related matters; includes literature, quarterly newsletter, telephone enquiry point, access to Government officials, signposting to business support organisations/intermediaries.

  Small Firms
  Sir David Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many schemes his Department runs to provide help or finance for small firms; and if he will list them.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 18 December 1991]: My Department runs or supports 40 schemes which provide help or finance and for which small firms are eligible. Of these, some are exclusive to small firms whilst others are open to companies of all sizes.
  393

  Scheme

  Eligibility

  Level and type of assistance

  Single Market Campaign (Help for representative organisations)

  Independent business support organisations, such as trade associations and chambers of commerce, whose principal activity is the provision of services to firms.

  Up to 50 per cent, of costs for two years of recruiting extra member of staff; applications closed 31 March 1991. Fifty per cent, of costs of attending single market related training courses; database; and help with specialist seminars/workshops.

  Managing into the 90s

  Managing into the '90s

  All firms.

  Spread of best practice mainly directed at smaller and medium sized firms. Advice/info on self-help to improve management practices.

  The Environment

  Environmental Enquiry Point

  All Businesses

  Advice on environmental issues. Free if answers involves four hours work or less. At WSL charge out rates if more.

  DEMOS (DTI Environmental Management Options Scheme)

  Companies (single or consortia) demonstrating best environmental practice.

  Grant aid up to 50 per cent, of eligible costs.

  ETIS (Environmental Technology Innovation Scheme)

  Normally consortia of United Kingdom companies, research organisations or HEIs looking to research and develop new environmental technology.

  Grant aid up to 50 per cent, of eligible costs.

  Euroenviron

  At least one United Kingdom company looking to research and develop new environmental technology with at least one EC or EFTA partner.

  Grant aid up to 50 per cent, of eligible costs.

  Regional

  Regional Selective Assistance (RSA)

  Available to manufacturing and some service sector projects in Assisted Areas. Project must create or safeguard jobs, and satisfy other scheme criteria including viability, need and national and regional economic benefits.

  Grant, payable in instalments. Amount offered is negotiated as the minimum necessary for the project to proceed.

  Regional Enterprise Grants

  Available to businesses employing fewer than 25 for manufacturing and some service sector projects in the Development Areas and the Intermediate Areas in South Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Plymouth and Fife.

  Grants for investment and innovation projects investment grants: 15 per cent, cost of fixed assets (max. £15,000) innovation grants: 50 per cent, of project costs (max. £25,000). Only one innovation and one investment grant per business (or group).

  Exports

  Export Intelligence Service

  United Kingdom producers of goods and services.

  Market Intelligence available world-wide at commercial rates.

  Market Information Enquiry Service

  United Kingdom producers of goods and services.

  Provision of customer specific information from overseas posts. Charges according to time taken to complete work.

  Export Representative Service

  United Kingdom producers of goods and services.

  Provision of customer specific information from posts on overseas contacts. Charged according to time taken to complete work.

  Overseas Status Report Service

  United Kingdom producers of goods and services.

  Provides a report on an overseas organisation. Charged according to time taken to complete work.

  Export Marketing Research Scheme

  Available to producers of goods or services of mainly United Kingdom origin with less than 200 employees.

  DTI pay up to half the cost, up to a grant of £20,000, for the commissioning of professional consultants to undertake research, support for "in-house" studies and DTI pay up to one-third of the cost of purchasing published research. Support is also available to Trade Associations on a sliding scale.

  New Products from Britain Service

  Products and processes must be British and new to target markets.

  Service helps test and promote new products overseas. Charge £60 for first market, thereafter £30 per market targeted.

  Overseas Trade Fairs

  United Kingdom manufactured goods.

  Subsidy—Exhibitors charged 50 per cent, of DTI costs at a maximum of three participations in each market (five in Germany, USA and Japan). Thereafter payment is at full DTI cost. Also travel grant available for events outside western Europe.

  394 395

  Scheme

  Eligibility

  Level and type of assistance

  Outward Missions

  United Kingdom producers of goods and services.

  Subsidy—Support of first three occasions in a market and half the rate for the fourth visit (Japan full rate up to five visits). Also travel grant for one company representative. Note: Scheme not available for western Europe.

  Overseas Seminar Scheme

  United Kingdom producers of goods and services.

  Subsidy—Participants charged 55 per cent, of estimated costs. Travel grants available outside western Europe.

  Store Promotions

  United Kingdom producers of goods and services.

  DTI supports overseas stores with financial assistance towards costs of expenses incurred in promoting the event.

  Inward Missions

  The host should be a group of United Kingdom companies who represent their industry.

  Subsidy—Travel to the United Kingdom (50 per cent, or 75 per cent.), travel in the United Kingdom 50 per cent., interpreters 50 per cent., accommodation and a reception 50 per cent.

  Consultancy Help

  Consultancy Help

  Firms with fewer lhan 500 employees.

  A free business review and up to 15 days subsidised consultancy. DTI pays 50 per cent., or two thirds is Assisted Areas and Urban Programme Areas.

  Enterprise and Education

  Teaching Company Scheme

  All companies, no restrictions on size.

  TCS helps to stimulate collaboration between industry, academia, provides industry based graduate training and facilitates technology transfer. Companies contribute between 30 per cent, and 75 per cent, of direct costs depending on size, with public sector funding making up the balance.

  Inner Cities

  Task Force Development Fund (TFDF)

  Firms should be within a task force area and have up to 25 employees; funding is on a "last resort" basis.

  Grants of up to £4,000 and loans of up to £10,000. £1·1 million levered in from private sector.

  Bus Building Industry
  Mr. Fry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what consideration he is giving to promote assistance to the British bus building industry.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 19 December 1991]: The British bus building industry has, in common with manufacturing industry in general, been hit by the world economic climate. It has suffered from excess capacity and is currently undergoing a period of restructuring.

  We have recently been in close contact with the main company in this field but have not been asked for and are not considering any direct assistance. The Government are continuing their policy of creating the right conditions for business and investment as we believe that this yields greater and longer lasting benefits.

  "The Two-edged Sword"
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will obtain for his departmental library a copy of the transcript and a video cassette of the programme, "The Two-edged Sword", on international arms trading, broadcast on BBC2 on 13 December.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 19 December 1991]: No.

TRANSPORT

  Mobility Allowance
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to reply to letters from the hon. Member for Harborough of 15 March 1991 and 30 September 1991, forwarded to him by the Department of Social Security, about the concern of the hon. Member's disabled constituent of Northleigh grove, Market Harborough, about the effect of vehicle excise duty changes on mobility allowance.

  Mr. Chope
  I received a letter from my hon. Friend, dated 5 March 1991, in which he raised a question on behalf of his disabled constituent about the effect that abolition of vehicle excise duty (VED) would have on disabled people who are currently exempt from paying this duty. I replied to that letter of 15 April 1991. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of my earlier reply.

  Railways (Noise)
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will undertake to examine the feasibility of introducing thresholds on noise levels for new railways.

  Mr. Freeman
  We plan to draw up noise insulation regulations for new railway lines. I gave details of our proposals in my answer to the hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. Bowis) on 28 November at column 577 about the recommendations of the Mitchell committee.

  Diesel Fumes
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what arrangements exist to monitor the exhaust emission levels from diesel vehicles in general and London taxi-cabs in particular; and what further checks he proposes to control the exhaust emissions from diesel engines.

  Mr. Chope
  Large diesel-powered vehicles are inspected annually and at roadside checks for the cleanliness of their exhaust emission by the Department's vehicle inspectorate. This is at present a subjective assessment of the level of smoke emitted. Testing using smoke measuring instruments will be introduced in 1992.

  Taxis are subject to a roadworthiness test after one year from new. Taxis are usually submitted not to an annual MoT roadworthiness certificate but to an alternative test, conducted by the licensing authority, which is generally more stringent than the MoT test.

  The licensing authority, which for taxis in London is the Public Carriage Office, has the power to carry out spot checks on a taxi at any time during the licensed year and can prohibit use of the vehicle until faults, which may include excessive smoke, are rectified. The Public Carriage Office is also currently liaising with Westminster council to set up a complaints hot-line for, among other vehicles, taxis which smoke excessively.

  For the future, studies are under way to determine the extent to which smoke measuring instruments can be adapted or modified for use on diesel-powered cars, taxis and light vans.

  Road Improvements, East Sussex
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consultations have been undertaken between his Department and East Sussex county council on the proposed improvements to the A26 at Beddington Itford Farm and to the A27 from Lewes to Polegate.

  Mr. Chope
  East Sussex county council is being consulted as part of the current public consultation on both these schemes. County, district and parish councillors were invited to a presentation about the schemes at a preview of the consultations exhibition.

  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received regarding the impending decision on the alignment to the proposed A27 Polegate bypass.

  Mr. Chope
  A small number of objections and representations have been received following publication of draft orders under the Highways Act for the A27 Polegate bypass. They are currently being assessed. The objection period ends on 29 February.

  Motorways
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning the proposed southern and western motorway and the proposed slip road linking it with the A59; what consultations he has had with Lancashire county council on the proposals; and what environmental matters he has taken into consideration in planning the motorway alignment.
  398
  Mr. Chope
  Several hundred representations have been received so far. Consultations with Lancashire county council have taken place throughout the development of the scheme and are continuing. In proposing a route for consultation full account has been taken of all environmental matters including the effects on people and property and on special landscape areas.

  Heavy Goods Vehicles
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will examine the feasibility of introducing a maximum speed limit for heavy goods vehicles.

  Mr. Chope
  Vehicle speed limits are already contained in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. The speed limit for goods vehicles over 7·5 tonnes gross weight is 60 mph on motorways, 50 mph on dual carriageways and 40 mph on other roads, subject to any lower road speed limits.

  Lorry and Bus Speeds
  Sir Teddy Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport for what reason Her Majesty's Government agreed to the directive on Euro speed limits for lorries and buses on 16 December; and if he will make a statement outlining the costs of the proposal and the benefits which will stem from it.

  Mr. Chope
  Commission proposal 8046/91 was subject to qualified majority voting and the United Kingdom was the only member state opposed to the inclusion of set speeds in the directive. The Government support the principle that speed limiters should be fitted to lorries and coaches. Moreover, the directive will be of benefit to the United Kingdom because, for the future. EC-registered vehicles, as well as those which are subject to the national construction and use regulations, will have to be fitted with limiters. The restrictions on speed will add to gross operating costs but there will be savings in fuel to set against these.

  Sir Teddy Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport for what reason Her Majesty's Government agreed to the directive on Euro speed limits for lorries and buses being considered as a majority voting measure; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The proposal for a directive on the fitment of speed limiters including speeds at which the limiters must be set was presented under article 75 of the European treaty as a measure in pursuance of a common transport policy. Voting under this article is required to be by qualified majority.

  Sir Teddy Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if there are any exemptions in any member state from the restrictions on speed limits for lorries and buses agreed in the Council on 16 December; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The proposed directive on the fitment of speed limiters will not provide any exemptions to permit member states to set limiters above the prescribed speeds.

  Midland Metro
  Mrs. Maureen Hicks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the Midland metro.
  399
  Mr. Freeman
  I announced in October that development funding of £1·5 million was being made available for further work to be done on the project. I have now decided that extra resources, in addition to this sum, should be provided in 1992–93 so that more preparatory work can be carried out. Full funding will be considered in due course.

  Rail Electrification (West Yorkshire)
  Mr. Waller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about the West York shire electrification project.

  Mr. Freeman
  The passenger transport authority has now informed me that the rolling-stock will as agreed be acquired through an operating lease. I welcome this, and we are allocating credit approvals to allow work to begin as soon as possible on the infrastructure for the project.

  Transport Council
  Mr. Grist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the outcome of the meeting of the European Transport Council on 16 and 17 December.

  Mr. Rifkind
  The meeting of the European Council of Transport Ministers was held in Brussels on the 16 and 17 December. Due to the incident on the morning of the 16 December at Clapham Junction, which resulted in serious and regrettable delay to British Rail services, I was unable to attend the Council. Officials represented the United Kingdom on both days.

  The Council agreed in principle that speed limiters should be fitted to heavy goods vehicles and coaches throughout the Community. The requirement will apply to all new vehicles registered after 1 January 1994. Existing vehicles registered after 1 January 1988 will have to have limiters fitted by 1 January 1995 where they are used in international transport, and by 1 January 1996 where they are used exclusively on domestic journeys. The Council also agreed that limiters should be set so as to restrict the road speed of HGVs to 90 kph (56 mph), and that limiters on coaches should be set at 100 kph (62 mph). In addition, there will be restrictions on who can fit and set limiters in order to safeguard against incorrect calibration and tampering.

  The Council took note of the Commission's interim report on road safety and requested the Commission to produce a final report by May 1992, including consideration of the establishment of a standing advisory committee on road safety.

  Agreement was reached on the definition of technical equivalence to road friendly (air) suspension with a firm commitment to take forward the proposal on maximum authorised drive axle weights.

  The Council reached agreement in principle on proposals for an EC road hauliers licence. These would be put before the next Transport Council for adoption subject to receipt of the European Parliament's opinion.

  The Council made progress towards Community rules for the single market on international road passenger transport, paving the way for further simplification of the procedures and for abolition for all authorisations as the next step.

  A resolution was agreed on transport and disabled people. The Commission have agreed to submit a report by September 1992.
  400
  The Commission introduced a paper on transport infrastructure networks which would take account of the Maastricht agreement on networks and the cohesion fund. The Council also reached agreement on its resolution on research and development under the fourth framework programme, with a Council declaration that transport research be
  "taken into account in a coherent way".

  The Council noted the presidency's report and agreed to ask the Economic and Financial Council to continue to examine fiscal harmonisation in the road haulage sector.

  The Council agreed a regulation to liberalise inland waterway cabotage.

  On aviation matters, a directive phasing out the operation of older, noisier aircraft between 1995 and 2002 was agreed in principle, subject to further examination of the annex listing certain aircraft from developing countries eligible for exemptions until 2002. The Council had a useful first debate on the third aviation package, agreeing with the main principles and scope of the Commission's proposals whilst noting that more work was needed on the details, particularly as to how and when cabotage and 'seventh freedom' services should be introduced.

  On maritime issues, the Council agreed a regulation enabling the Commission to work up a detailed block exemption from the competition rules of the treaty for shipping consortia. The Council also agreed a decision on radionavigation systems. No final decisions were reached on the liberalisation of shipping cabotage but there was general support for the phased approach by the presidency and the proposal was remitted to the Portuguese presidency for further discussion.

  Public Transport, London
  Miss Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make it his policy to make public transport in London more affordable to travellers.

  Mr. Freeman
  Since 1984, real fare increases for London Transport have averaged 2½ per cent. per year, somewhat less than London earnings have risen, which means that public transport in London is that much more affordable. In its response to the MMC report on London Underground, the Government made it clear that they did not see a case for much steeper real fare increases than those in the past six years.

  River Policing
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what arrangements he is making for the specialist policing at riverside wharves, jetties, piers, depots, warehouses and other marine installations on the River Thames within the port of London, but not within the designated port of Tilbury.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  None. The places mentioned by the hon. Member are, and will continue to be, policed by the Thames division of the Metropolitan police if they are within the Metropolitan police area or, if they are outside it, by the appropriate county force.

  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning the future policing of the port of Tilbury; and if he will place copies of such representations and his respective responses in the Library.
  401
  Mr. McLoughlin
  I have received representations from my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor), who is parliamentary spokesman for the PLA Police Federation, and from the chairman of the federation itself. In addition, hon. Members have forwarded to me letters from 15 members or former members of the PLA police force.

  Rail Coaches
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will state the longitudinal crushing strength of the pacer, sprinter, type 144, HST and 225 type coaches in use on British Railways; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  The longitudinal loads specified for mainline and multiple unit coaches at various heights above rail level are set out in the table. All new design of body shell are tested to verify their performance before entering service.

  Load (tonnes)

  Height

  Mainline1 coaches

  Multiple2 units

  Buffer-coupler height

  200

  150

  Waist height (below windows)

  30

  30

  Cant height (join between body sides and roof)

  30

  30

  1 Includes HST (Mark III) and C225 (Mark IV) coaches.

  2 Includes Pacers (including Class 144) and Sprinters.

  Rail Electrification
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the total cost of(a) the electrification of the railway between Edinburgh and London, including costs of locomotives and rolling stock and (b) the electrification of the railway between Glasgow and Euston at constant prices, including costs of locomotives and rolling stock.

  Mr. Freeman
  The information requested is not immediately available. I will write to the hon. Member shortly.

  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport regarding the overhead catenary on(a) the east coast route into King's Cross and (b) the west coast route into Euston, if he will list (i) the diameter of the copper traction current wire, (ii) the weight of the type of pillar and arm supporting the wire in both systems and (iii) the reliability of the locomotives on each system in failures per 10,000 miles; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  The Department does not hold the information requested. Operational details are matters for British Rail.

  East Coast Line
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what information the Health and Safety Executive has on the problems being experienced with signal failures on the east coast railway route between Leeds and London.

  Mr. Freeman
  I understand from BR that signals have been thrown to red, and other equipment has been disabled, as a result of serious problems of vandalism on the east coast main line in recent weeks. Such incidents were not reportable to the Health and Safety Executive since they did not involve a safety risk.

  Road Pricing Schemes
  Mr. Darling
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consideration he has given to the introduction of road pricing schemes in order to reduce traffic levels in city centres; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  Last year my right hon. and learned Friend announced a wide ranging study into urban congestion, its causes and cures including a specific research programme into the potential for road pricing in London. On 24 October he announced the appointment of Programme Consultants for the London programme and work started on 2 November. It will take about two and a half years. Outside London it is for local highway authorities to consider. Cambridge is developing specific proposals, and others, such as Edinburgh and Oxford, are examining the general implications. My Department and the Scottish Office are keeping in touch with these studies. My right hon. and learned Friend made it clear in his original announcement that the Government have an open mind on the desirability of urban road pricing and will await the results of the research before making a decision.

  Port of London Authority Police
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received from the Port of London Police Federation about reviewing his proposals to privatise the Port of London Authority police; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The federation has expressed to me its concern about the proposed transfer of the PLA police force to the company set up for the port of Tilbury under section 21 of the Ports Act 1991. I have considered their representations very carefully but remain of the view that the transfer of the PLA police to the Tilbury Company is in the best interests of the PLA, of the future owners of the port of Tilbury and of the PLA police alike.

  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what employment and pension protection has been afforded to police officers serving in the Port of London Police Authority who are nearing retirement age; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The provisions of paragraph 10 of schedule 2 to the Ports Act 1991 make it clear that the transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981 will apply to the whole of the PLA's undertaking which is to be transferred to the new Tilbury Company. The effect of these regulations will be to protect at the time of transfer the employment contracts of all PLA employees who transfer, including police officers.

  The pension rights of those employees who transfer and as a result cease to belong to the PLA pension fund will be protected by the PLA's scheme of transfer for the Tilbury undertaking, as required by section 23(2) of the Act.

  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what instructions or guidance he has given to prevent elected officers of the Port of London Police Authority from making their views known on the proposals for privatising the police authority.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I have issued no guidance.

  127–129 Fillebrook Road, Leytonstone
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport why the decision was made to demolish Nos. 127 arid 129 Fillebrook road, Leytonstone, rather than secure them for safe occupation; who was consulted; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The decision was taken on grounds of public safety: these properties became dangerous after thieves rendered them structurally unsound by systematically removing the bricks over large parts of their rear facades. The decision was endorsed by an officer of the building control department of the London borough of Waltham Forest. Adjoining landowners, including London Underground Ltd., were also consulted.

  Car Safety
  Mr. Day
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will provide information by make and model of new cars which have any of the following features designed along the lines of the United Kingdom proposals currently under discussion in the European Community(a) safer steering wheels, (b) front end protection for pedestrians and (c) side impact protection.

  Mr. Chope
  The information requested is not available.

  Proposals for safer steering wheels, frontal protection for pedestrians and side impact protection are currently under discussion in the European Community with strong support from the United Kingdom. These features do not, however, form part of the United Kingdom national type approval scheme for motor vehicles and are therefore not checked and recorded by make and model as part of that process.

  Pollution and Congestion, London
  Miss Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what measures he intends to take to reduce air pollution in London caused by motor vehicles.

  Mr. Chope
  From 31 December 1992, we shall require new standards to be met by all cars and light goods vehicles, both petrol and diesel-engined. New requirements for diesel emissions will also apply to heavy duty 404
  trucks and buses from 1 October 1993, with further reductions from 1 October 1996. So far as London in particular is concerned, record sums are already being invested in public transport to improve the quality of choice for those who might otherwise use private motor cars. Traffic management projects, such as red routes, are intended to enable traffic to flow more smoothly, and thus give off less emissions than when moving in a "stop-start" manner. The pilot red route scheme in north London has already demonstrated the success of this strategy.

  Ms. Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whart measures he intends to take to relieve traffic congestion in London.

  Mr. Chope
  The Government have several initiatives designed to tackle urban road congestion, a principal one of which is to continue to make public transport more attractive, reliable and efficient.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to reduce the concentration of private traffic on London's roads.

  Mr. Chope
  [holding answer 19 December 1991]: The Government have several initiatives designed to tackle urban road congestion, a principal one of which is to continue to make public transport more attractive, reliable and efficient.

  Mr. Day
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what progress is being made concerning the further development and adoption nationally of a car secondary safety rating system, to improve consumer information about the relative crashworthiness merits of new cars through technical inspection and impact testing methods.

  Mr. Chope
  We are currently developing the methodology used in producing the statistics in the publication "Car and Driver: Injury Accident and Casualty Rates Great Britain". The information in the next edition will be further refined to try to isolate secondary safety; if this is successful it could be used as a measure of the secondary safety of cars. In addition we are co-operating with the Consumers Association in the further development of its secondary safety rating system to include some destructive testing.

SCOTLAND

  Scottish Development Agency
  Mr. Batiste
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many companies which have received funding from the Scottish Development Agency have become insolvent.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  Information readily available from the records of the former Scottish Development Agency is limited to cases where funding was provided in the form of investment assistance. It is available for cases where the amount provided exceeded £50,000 in the years before 1986–87; but is available for all cases for the financial years 1986–87 to 1990–91. On that basis, the number of companies is 1,028, of which 176 are known to have gone into receivership or liquidation, or to have suffered sequestration.

  Salmon
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what sums he is making available for research into the effect farmed salmon escapees are having on nature stocks in the present and next three financial years; and if he will list the projects and establishments on which the money is being expended.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  In the current financial year, 1991–92, the Department expects to spend about £210,000, at full economic cost, on studies of the genetic component of population structure and genetic variation in performance of farmed and wild salmon. The work will continue, but detailed plans, or costs, for 1992–93 and later financial years have not yet been finalised.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the source of the brood fish used in the production of farmed salmon in Scotland; what research he has carried out into the genetic differences between them and the salmon in Scottish rivers; and what information he has on how many brood fish came from each source in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Information on the numbers of sources of broodstock used by salmon farmers is not obtained or collected centrally.

  Studies on the genetic constitution of farmed fish compared with wild salmon have been undertaken by scientists of the Scottish Office Agriculture and Fisheries Department over the past three years. The findings have been published in specialist papers. Copies of Scottish fisheries working paper No. 4/89 and Scottish fisheries research report 42, published by the Department, have been placed in the Library. The most recent findings have been published this year in the specialist journal "Aquaculture", Vol. 98 Nos. 1–3.

  Harbours (Accounts)
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list by region, the statutory harbour undertakings which are required by section 42(2)(b) of the Harbours Act 1964 to send him a copy of their annual accounts, stating in each case the names of the harbour or harbours covered by the undertaking, and the financial year for which accounts were most recently submitted.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  All statutory undertakings which fall within the responsibility of the Scottish 406
  Office are excluded from the need to submit annual accounts to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State by virtue of section 42(11)(b) of the Harbours Act 1964, as amended by schedule 6 to the Transport Act 1981. Details of statutory harbour undertakings in Scotland which are the responsibility of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will be provided separately by him.

  Hospital Beds
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the numbers of(a) hospital beds and (b) acute beds for each health board and the total for Scotland in each year since 1979, and the percentage change from 1979 to 1989.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Information on the number of all NHS hospital beds in Scotland and those beds used for acute specialities, for Scotland and for each health board in Scotland for the years ending 31 March 1979 to 1991 are shown in the table.

  The table shows information on the average available staffed beds and indicates the number of beds which are staffed and are available for the reception of inpatients and day cases. Borrowed and temporary beds are included.

  The acute specialty group comprises the following main specialty classifications: general surgery, orthopaedic surgery, ENT surgery, ophthalmology, urology, orthodontics and paediatric dentistry, oral surgery and medicine, restorative dentistry, general medicine, dermatology, rehabilitation medicine, respiratory medicine, surgical paediatrics medical paediatrics, gynaecology, GP acute, acute mixed and other acute.

  The acute specialty group does not include those specialty classifications attributed to the supra-area specialty group, ie specialties: neurosurgery, cardiothoracic surgery, plastic surgery, neurology, radiotherapy and spinal paralysis.

  Average available staffed beds in NHS hospitals in Scotland for all and acute specialties: by health board: years ending 31 March 1979–1991 1979

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  58,788

  19,005

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,623

  1,372

  Ayr and Arran

  2,847

  981

  Borders

  906

  319

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,707

  437

  Fife

  2,966

  801

  Forth Valley

  3,617

  733

  Grampian

  5,384

  1,752

  Greater Glasgow

  14,078

  4,867

  Highland

  2,470

  810

  Lanarkshire

  5,560

  1,680

  Lothian

  8,432

  3,210

  Orkney

  124

  50

  Shetland

  160

  62

  Tayside

  5,698

  1,846

  Western Isles

  216

  85

  1980

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  58,334

  18,948

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,561

  1,330

  Ayr and Arran

  2,822

  975

  407

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Borders

  897

  311

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,626

  423

  Fife

  2,928

  791

  Forth Valley

  3,610

  708

  Grampian

  5,398

  1,758

  Greater Glasgow

  14,068

  4,908

  Highland

  2,433

  810

  Lanarkshire

  5,515

  1,735

  Lothian

  8,393

  3,200

  Orkney

  120

  46

  Shetland

  159

  62

  Tayside

  5,588

  1,808

  Western Isles

  216

  84

  1981

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  58,150

  18,755

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,499

  1,263

  Ayr and Arran

  2,827

  977

  Borders

  910

  322

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,589

  428

  Fife

  2,912

  784

  Forth Valley

  3,614

  727

  Grampian

  5,387

  1,709

  Greater Glasgow

  14,078

  4,859

  Highland

  2,424

  811

  Lanarkshire

  5,540

  1,728

  Lothian

  8,408

  3,175

  Orkney

  131

  58

  Shetland

  160

  62

  Tayside

  5,465

  1,771

  Western Isles

  207

  82

  1982

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  57,928

  18,649

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,484

  1,259

  Ayr and Arran

  2,818

  970

  Borders

  931

  337

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,559

  428

  Fife

  2,971

  791

  Forth Valley

  3,570

  727

  Grampian

  5,429

  1,711

  Greater Glasgow

  13,919

  4,811

  Highland

  2,417

  809

  Lanarkshire

  5,543

  1,733

  Lothian

  8,419

  3,171

  Orkney

  131

  57

  Shetland

  160

  62

  Tayside

  5,375

  1,698

  Western Isles

  202

  83

  1983

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  57,119

  18,092

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,455

  1,258

  Ayr and Arran

  2,795

  947

  Borders

  934

  345

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,538

  424

  Fife

  3,001

  797

  Forth Valley

  3,426

  688

  Grampian

  5,477

  1,694

  Greater Glasgow

  13,348

  4,326

  Highland

  2,337

  815

  Lanarkshire

  5,518

  1,696

  Lothian

  8,452

  3,142

  408

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Orkney

  131

  58

  Shetland

  160

  62

  Tayside

  5,367

  1,754

  Western Isles

  209

  85

  1984

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  57,342

  18,079

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,433

  1,255

  Ayr and Arran

  3,051

  1,080

  Borders

  925

  325

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,538

  421

  Fife

  3,106

  804

  Forth Valley

  3,465

  690

  Grampian

  5,571

  1,729

  Greater Glasgow

  13,206

  4,204

  Highland

  2,288

  797

  Lanarkshire

  5,442

  1,715

  Lothian

  8,505

  3,124

  Orkney

  131

  57

  Shetland

  159

  62

  Tayside

  5,312

  1,731

  Western Isles

  208

  84

  1985

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  56,802

  17,753

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,437

  1,248

  Ayr and Arran

  3,026

  1,082

  Borders

  927

  333

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,552

  435

  Fife

  3,139

  795

  Forth Valley

  3,401

  678

  Grampian

  5,568

  1,725

  Greater Glasgow

  13,079

  4,151

  Highland

  2,279

  766

  Lanarkshire

  5,338

  1,627

  Lothian

  8,358

  2,999

  Orkney

  129

  56

  Shetland

  159

  63

  Tayside

  5,197

  1,711

  Western Isles

  210

  85

  1986

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  55,955

  17,384

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,386

  1,245

  Ayr and Arran

  2,988

  1,058

  Borders

  933

  339

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,510

  443

  Fife

  3,229

  785

  Forth Valley

  3,418

  683

  Grampian

  5,567

  1,722

  Greater Glasgow

  12,746

  4,045

  Highland

  2,131

  686

  Lanarkshire

  5,271

  1,587

  Lothian

  8,163

  2,910

  Orkney

  106

  57

  Shetland

  160

  62

  Tayside

  5,137

  1,678

  Western Isles

  211

  85

  409

  1987

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  55,338

  17,223

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,312

  1,236

  Ayr and Arran

  2,951

  1,052

  Borders

  944

  348

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,493

  445

  Fife

  3,290

  811

  Forth Valley

  3,410

  682

  Grampian

  5,513

  1,707

  Greater Glasgow

  12,559

  3,987

  Highland

  2,165

  695

  Lanarkshire

  5,042

  1,570

  Lothian

  8,047

  2,840

  Orkney

  131

  58

  Shetland

  158

  60

  Tayside

  5,109

  1,648

  Western Isles

  216

  85

  1988

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  54,487

  17,005

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,307

  1,233

  Ayr and Arran

  2,952

  1,074

  Borders

  939

  347

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,505

  445

  Fife

  3,254

  811

  Forth Valley

  3,151

  643

  Grampian

  5,457

  1,693

  Greater Glasgow

  12,242

  3,933

  Highland

  2,142

  687

  Lanarkshire

  4,961

  1,552

  Lothian

  8,008

  2,761

  Orkney

  131

  61

  Shetland

  159

  62

  Tayside

  5,057

  1,615

  Western Isles

  221

  88

  1989

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  54,487

  17,005

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,307

  1,233

  Ayr and Arran

  2,952

  1,074

  Borders

  939

  347

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,505

  445

  Fife

  3,254

  811

  Forth Valley

  3,151

  643

  Grampian

  5,457

  1,693

  Greater Glasgow

  12,242

  3,933

  Highland

  2,142

  687

  Lanarkshire

  4,961

  1,552

  Lothian

  8,008

  2,761

  Orkney

  131

  61

  Shetland

  159

  62

  Tayside

  5,057

  1,615

  Western Isles

  221

  88

  1990

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  52,121

  16,270

  Argyll and Clyde

  4,103

  1,275

  Ayr and Arran

  2,925

  1,087

  Borders

  927

  335

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,439

  417

  Fife

  3,062

  805

  Forth Valley

  2,878

  604

  Grampian

  5,276

  1,428

  410

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Greater Glasgow

  11,918

  3,854

  Highland

  1,968

  690

  Lanarkshire

  4,790

  1,529

  Lothian

  7,578

  2,442

  Orkney

  131

  61

  Shetland

  162

  63

  Tayside

  4,743

  1,593

  Western Isles

  220

  86

  1991

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  50,640

  15,883

  Argyll and Clyde

  3,976

  1,257

  Ayr and Arran

  2,886

  1,071

  Borders

  917

  339

  Dumfries and Galloway

  1,389

  420

  Fife

  2,987

  791

  Forth Valley

  2,853

  592

  Grampian

  5,155

  1,391

  Greater Glasgow

  11,482

  3,716

  Highland

  1,918

  695

  Lanarkshire

  4,773

  1,521

  Lothian

  7,207

  2,312

  Orkney

  144

  61

  Shetland

  151

  53

  Tayside

  4,578

  1,578

  Western Isles

  224

  87

  Percentage change 1979–89

  All specialties

  Acute specialties

  Scotland

  -9·1

  -12·7

  Argyll and Clyde

  -10·7

  -7·0

  Ayr and Arran

  4·4

  10·9

  Borders

  3·7

  6·0

  Dumfries and Galloway

  -11·9

  0·2

  Fife

  4·7

  -0·5

  Forth Valley

  -14·8

  -15·8

  Grampian

  0·8

  -17·2

  Greater Glasgow

  -13·9

  -20·6

  Highland

  -17·7

  -15·2

  Lanarkshire

  -11·7

  -8·6

  Lothian

  -6·1

  -16·4

  Orkney

  5·5

  20·8

  Shetland

  0·3

  0·3

  Tayside

  -15·8

  -12·6

  Western Isles

  2·4

  2·7

  Small Firms
  Sir David Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many schemes his Department runs to provide help or finance for small firms; and if he will list them.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  My right hon. Friend's Department runs or supports seven schemes providing help or finance for small firms. These are:

  Managing Into the 90s1

  Export Market Research Scheme1

  Regional Enterprise Grant for Investment

  Regional Enterprise Grant for Innovation

  Regional Office Technology Transfer Programme1

  Small Firms Merit Award For Research and Technology (SMART) 1

  Support for Products Under Research (SPUR) 1

  1Administered by Scottish Office Industry Department but funded by DTI

  411
  In addition small firms also benefit from more generally available schemes run by my Department, including regional selective assistance and the full range of schemes operated by Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the local enterprise companies are also available to assist small firms development. Some of these are aimed specifically or primarily at small firms. The local enterprise companies and other agencies also have flexibility to develop their own schemes designed to meet the particular needs of enterprises, including small firms, in their area.

  Marine Fish Farms
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will issue for consultation guidance on the location of marine fish farms in Scotland.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  My Department issued today a draft of this guidance which seeks to clarify policy and to balance concern for environment with a sustainable future for marine fish fanning. It is being issued for consultation to a wide range of interested parties in Scotland and comments are invited by mid February. A copy has been placed in the Library of the House. I look forward to considering all the comments received once the consultation period is completed.

  Gifts in Lieu of Inheritance Tax
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if any works of art accepted in lieu of inheritance tax have been allocated since he last made an announcement.

  1998–89

  1989–90

  Region

  (a) Serious irregularity

  (b) Minor breach

  (c) Payment withheld

  (a) Serious irregularity

  (b) Minor breach

  (c) Payment withheld

  in full

  in part

  in full

  in part

  Borders

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Central

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  3

  —

  3

  Dumfries and Galloway

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Fife

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  Grampian

  —

  27

  3

  24

  —

  30

  1

  29

  Highland

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  Lothian

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  1

  Tayside

  —

  8

  1

  7

  —

  5

  —

  5

  Others

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Total

  —

  37

  4

  33

  —

  41

  1

  40

  Full information in respect of the 1990–91 set-aside year is not yet avilable, as claims are still being checked and processed.

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many farmers have received payment under the set-aside scheme, for each year since 1988, in each

  Payments for 1988–89 (set-aside agreements entered into in 1988)

  (a)

  (b)

  (c)

  (d)

  (e)

  (f)

  Region

  Horse-based activities

  Golf courses

  Game cover (commercial)

  Sports grounds

  Other recreational facilities

  Other

  Borders

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Fife

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Grampian

  17

  —

  6

  2

  3

  1

  412
  Mr. Lang
  I am particularly pleased to announce that I am allocating the following pre-eminent works of art accepted in lieu of inheritance tax to the Royal Scottish Academy, Edinburgh, on permanent loan.

  Items

  Amount of tax satisfied

  Portrait of Selina Thistlethwayte by Thomas Gainsbourgh

  £6,650,000

  Portrait of Robert Thistlethwayte of Norman Court by Thomas Gainsbourgh

  Portrait of Pierre Pecquius by Sir Peter Paul Rubens

  View of Wageningen by Hercules Seghers

  The Royal Scottish Academy is making arrangements for a short exhibition of the paintings in the Academy building early in 1992. I have agreed that they will then go on loan to the Aberdeen art gallery while preparations are made for their permanent display at the Royal Scottish Academy.

  Set-aside Scheme
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give the figures for each region in Scotland for each year since 1988 of(a) the number of serious irregularities of the set-aside scheme, (b) the number of minor breaches of the scheme and (c) the number of cases where payments were withheld in full or in part; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 13 December 1991]: The information requested is as follows:

  region in Scotland for (a) horse-based activities, (b) golf courses, (c) game cover for commercial shoots, (d) sports grounds, (e) other recreational facilities and (f) other; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 13 December 1991]: The information requested is as follows:
  413

  (a)

  (b)

  (c)

  (d)

  (e)

  (f)

  Region

  Horse-based activities

  Golf courses

  Game cover (commercial)

  Sports grounds

  Other recreational facilities

  Other

  Highland

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Lothian

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Strathclyde

  2

  1

  —

  1

  1

  1

  Tayside

  16

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Others

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Total

  39

  1

  7

  2

  3

  2

  Payments for 1989–90 (set-aside agreements entered into in 1988 and 1989)

  Region

  (a)

  (b)

  (c)

  (d)

  (e)

  (f)

  Borders

  2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Dumfries and Galloway

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  Fife

  2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Grampian

  23

  —

  6

  2

  5

  2

  Highland

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  Lothian

  3

  —

  1

  —

  —

  1

  Strathclyde

  3

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  Tayside

  18

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Others

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Total

  52

  1

  7

  2

  5

  6

  Payments for 1990–91 (set-aside agreements entered into in 1988, 1989 and 1990)

  Region

  (a)

  (b)

  (c)

  (d)

  (e)

  (f)

  Borders

  2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Central

  1

  —

  —

  —

  2

  —

  Dumfries and Galloway

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  1

  Fife

  3

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Grampian

  29

  1

  9

  2

  5

  2

  Highland

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  Lothian

  4

  —

  1

  —

  —

  2

  Strathclyde

  3

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  Tayside

  19

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Others

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  TOTAL

  62

  3

  11

  2

  7

  7

  The information provided in respect of payments for the 1990–91 set-aside year, ending 30 September 1991, is provisional, pending completion of the processing of claims. As the scheme provides for five-year undertakings, the third table represents the cumulative position.

  Scottish Arts Council
  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any proposals for a supplementary financial allocation to the Scottish Arts Council and Edinburgh district council in order to allow the meeting of the Council of Ministers in Edinburh to be marked by a range of cultural events; and if he will make a statement.
  414
  Lord James Douglas Hamilton
  [holding answer 12 December 1991]: I have no such proposals. These and other bodies may however be eligible to receive limited support for particular projects from funds set aside to promote events associated with the United Kingdom's presidency of the Community. I hope that a wide range of cultural events will be included in the celebrations of Edinburgh's prominent role as the city which is to host the meeting of the European Council of Ministers in December 1992. My officials will be meeting representatives of relevant Scottish organisations early in the new year for further discussions on the part which these organisations intend to play.