Sitting of 19 April 1991

Preamble
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr. Harold Walker, in the Chair]
PRAYERS

  CONTINGENCIES FUND 1989–90
  Ordered,
  That there be laid before this House Accounts of the Contingencies Fund, 1989–90, showing:—

  (1) The Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March 1990.

  (2) The Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.—[Mr. John. M. Taylor.]

BILLS PRESENTED
  SCHOOL TEACHERS' PAY AND CONDITIONS (No. 2) BILL
  Mr. Secretary Clarke presented a Bill to make provision with respect to the remuneration and other conditions of employment of school teachers; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Monday 29 April and to be printed. [Bill 137.]
Orders of the Day
  Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Bill
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
New clause 2

  ENFORCEMENT ACTION BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES IN SCOTLAND
  '(1) It shall be the duty of a regional or islands council—

  (a) to consider, at least once in every period of twelve months, the extent to which it is appropriate for them to carry out in their area a programme of enforcement action relating to section 18 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 and sections 3 and 5 above, and

  (b) accordingly to carry out in their area any programme which is for the time being considered by them to be appropriate under paragraph (a) above.

  (2) In subsection (1)(a) above the reference to a programme of enforcement action relating to the provisions there mentioned is a reference to a programme involving all or any of the following, namely—

  (a) the investigation of complaints in respect of alleged offences under those provisions;

  (b) the taking of other measures intended to reduce the incidence of offences under those provisions;

  (c) in relation to section 18(2) of the Act of 1937, the monitoring of such use of automatic machines for the sale of tobacco as is mentioned in that provision.'.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]

  Brought up, and read the First time.
  9.35 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): With this it will be convenient to consider the following amendments: No. 2, in page 2, line 31, leave out clause 4.
  Government amendments Nos. 5 to 12 and Nos. 16 to 17.
  Mr. Lloyd: In Committee, I agreed to bring forward a provision for Scotland which paralleled as far as possible clause 4 of the Bill. In giving that commitment, I said that such an amendment would need to reflect the different prosecution arrangements in Scotland, and new clause 2 does that. In response to representations from the Bill's sponsors, new clause 2 extends the local authority enforcement role to cover not only offences under section 18 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 but new offences that will be created in clauses 3 and 5 of the Bill. Those are offences in relation to the sale of unpackaged cigarettes and the display of warning statements in retail premises and on vending machines. Later in the debate, I shall move amendments to clause 4 which parallel that extension of the local authority enforcement role. I hope that the new clause has the approval of the Bill's sponsor, the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), and I commend it to the House.
  Amendment No. 2, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles), seeks to

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  delete clause 4. As some members of the Committee will remember, there was much discussion on that clause. We wanted to get it right and I am sure that, with the addition of the amendments that I have tabled, we have done so. I hope that there will be general agreement on that. As always, I shall listen with care to my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East. I shall explain why I think that clause 4 is necessary and how it is intended to work. Local authorities have powers elsewhere to follow up offences such as those in the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. The Bill strengthens those powers, and clauses 3 and 5 introduce new ones.
  The concern expressed by the hon. Member for Warley, East, other members of the Committee and the Parents Against Tobacco campaign was that those powers were not necessarily being used. The Government are concerned that some local authorities appear not to be taking seriously enough their responsibilities in that area. This can be for various reasons, but it seems that local authorities are often doubtful about their powers to act in this field and may even believe that they have none. This, I believe, was also the response that Parents Against Tobacco came up against.
  It seemed clear, therefore, that something was needed to prompt local authorities into considering exactly what they might and should be doing to prevent the sale of tobacco to children. The other clauses of the Bill strengthened the force of the offences, but, alongside that, it needed to stimulate local authorities into action.
  Clause 4 requires local authorities to consider at least once every 12 months to what extent it is appropriate for them to carry out an enforcement programme relating to offences under the 1933 Act, and now, with my other amendments, to which I shall be turning shortly, the other clauses of the Bill. In practice, this will mean that, at least once a year, this subject will be on the agenda of every county council, metropolitan district council and London borough council. The councils will have to address themselves to the problem in their area and decide what form of action is appropriate to their particular local circumstances.
  As the House will have noted, district councils in the shire counties were not on the list of those to whom clause 4 applies. However, this does not mean that they will not wish to take action or that they will be unable to do so. District councils have powers under section 222 of the Local Government Act 1972 to prosecute for such offences. Also, of course, they, too, may take a decision to mount a campaign in the interests of their area aimed at the prevention of the sale of cigarettes to children.
  The Government's determination to see that clause 4 produces results is reflected in our commitment to back it up with a circular to local authorities, prepared jointly by those Departments with an interest in these matters. The circular will explain exactly what local authorities' powers are to take action on these offences. It will remind them of their responsibilities and the importance which is attached to taking action against offenders.
  We have been told that local authorities are not sure how best to approach such a campaign. Again, it is hoped that, with the assistance of those already engaged in these activities or the monitoring of them, the circular will
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  provide examples of best practice. These will serve to explain to local authorities the various ways in which this problem can be tackled.
  We would not, however, propose to leave it at that. As has been said, public pressure for action can be an important driving force for local authorities to take action. One way in which local electors can judge what is happening is to have access to information about what their local authority has been doing. We have therefore given an undertaking to issue a revised code of practice to local authorities on the publication of annual reports and financial statements by local authorities, which will require local authorities to include information on just that.
  The annual reports of local authorities must be made widely available to members of the public, at town and county halls; members of the local press, supplemented by a press release; interested groups wishing to receive copies; and employees of the authority. This should give plenty of opportunity for the general public to evaluate what their local authority is doing and, if necessary, to lobby for more or different types of action.
  9.45 am
  Clause 4 is the linchpin of all this activity. Local authorities already have powers, but we want to ensure—I know that this is the purpose of the hon. Member for Warley, East—that they are regularly considering whether and how they should use them.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: My hon. Friend said that the local authorities have powers already to take the various forms of action that he has described. Are not we guilty of repetition by giving the authorities the additional power of enabling them to consider every year the appropriateness of the action that they have taken, and to take whatever action happens to be appropriate to their respective areas? Is not the additional power repetitious and an example of what we seek to avoid putting on the statute book?
  Mr. Lloyd: The proposed legislation requires local authorities to do only one more thing apart from providing them with additional powers, which is done in other parts of the Bill. It is to consider carefully at least once a year what the problems are in their areas and how they should best use their powers. I think that my hon. Friend will agree that these are important matters. I know that he has concern, because he expressed it in Committee. I believe that he would like to see local authorities considering the problem and using their powers as they think best and using their resources in the manner that they hope will be most productive. I believe that my hon. Friend and I agree on that. The clause does no more than ensure that local authorities regularly consider how that may best be done in their areas.
  We want local authorities themselves to be aware of what can and should be done, and we want their electors to be in a position to make their opinion felt. Without the requirement in clause 4 for each local authority to take a measured view of what needs doing at least once every 12 months, this may not happen. The force of the Bill as a whole would be emasculated by the removal of clause 4.
  I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East is concerned not to place additional unnecessary work on local authorities, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet). They are right. We all know that it is far too easy to require

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  local authorities to devote resources and time to inessential and ineffectual tasks, to the exclusion of their more serious responsibilities. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East will accept that clause 4 represents one of the more serious responsibilities of local authorities—to consider how the law on the sale of cigarettes to children might be enforced—and that it could therefore be right to retain it.
  It would probably be useful if I spoke to amendments Nos. 5 to 11, which are largely technical. Much time and care was devoted in Committee to achieving a form of words for the key enforcement clause, clause 4. The Government were concerned to arrive at a clause which was practicable and effective. I know that that was the intention also of the hon. Member for Warley, East. Although we may have started out from somewhat different positions, when it came to what we considered to be practicable and effective, I am glad to say that it seems that we have achieved common ground. I do not believe that that would have been achieved without perseverance and resourcefulness and the good sense of the hon. Member for Warley, East and his supporters and friends in Parents Against Tobacco.
  The intention that lies behind the clause is that, at least once every 12 months, every county, metropolitan district or London borough should consider the extent to which it is appropriate for it to carry out an enforcement programme that is designed to stamp out the practice of selling cigarettes to under 16-year-olds. The programme of action was to be related to the offences that are set out in the Children and. Young Persons Act 1933. However, the new offences that are introduced by clauses 3 and 5 go wider than that.
  Thus, a local authority may wish to design a programme to deter retailers from selling packets of cigarettes to children. Where the main problem is the sale of single cigarettes, it may wish to take action on that offence. A local authority might wish to monitor the use of certain vending machines as a preliminary to malting complaints about their use to a court. Some or all of these activities might be appropriate to a programme of enforcement action, but local authorities need to consider them all before deciding how best to proceed in the interests of their areas.
  Clause 4, as drafted, refers only to the offences under section 7 of the 1933 Act. This group of amendments would insert reference to clauses 3 and 5 of the Bill and to the making of complaints about and monitoring of the use of vending machines. Thus they ensure that each local authority will take a comprehensive look at all those areas where children might be at risk through the illegal sale of cigarettes before deciding what action to take. That cart be seen only as an improvement to clause 4.
  Amendment No. 16 is simply a tidying-up amendment to ensure that the clause follows those clauses in the Bill, notably clauses 1, 3 and 5, to which it relates.
  Amendment No. 17 tidies up the long title to the Bill. It reflects the changes made in the Bill in relation to enforcement action by local authorities and to the order of the clauses that have been agreed. I commend the amendments to the House.
  Mr. Andrew Faulds: The Bill returns to the House after four Committee days, which we all much enjoyed, and a lengthy process of negotiation. I do not pretend that the Bill is as uncompromising as I would like,
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  but both the Minister and I made it clear on Second Reading that we were ready to do all that we could to establish a consensus behind legislation that would effectively reduce the sale of tobacco products to children. I am in no doubt that the Bill will do that.
  I thank the Minister for the generous amount of time that he has given to our discussions. He has bent over backwards—if that is not an unparliamentary term—to help the Bill to proceed on its way. I thank him for his extraordinarily constructive attitude —not a quality that one always finds in Ministers. I also thank the Committee for its work.
  I shall not take too long to review the background to the Bill in general, and this new clause in particular, but I must remind the House of two salient points. First, nobody outside the tobacco industry argues with the proposition that tobacco products represent a major threat to the health and well- being of the nation. On Second Reading, I quoted the chief medical officer of health, who said that cigarette smoking in the United Kingdom continued to be
  "by far the most significant single cause of ill health and premature death, and hence of expenditure on health services".—[Official Report, 18 January 1991; Vol. 183, c. 1093.]
  The House heard from myself, from the Minister and from other hon. Members about the overwhelming evidence of death and disease caused by smoking. Those problems are especially acute in Scotland. There, and throughout the United Kingdom, our hospitals and cemeteries are filled with the victims of tobacco.
  Secondly, in giving the Bill a Second Reading, the House accepted that while there are difficult questions of personal freedom when it comes to restrictions on adult smoking, those do not apply to children. For their own protection, children cannot be given the same freedom of choice as more mature adults. That is recognised in existing legislation—in Scotland, it is the 1937 Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act—which makes sales of cigarettes to children illegal. Regrettably, despite a worthy amendment to the law introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) in 1986, the legislation still fails to restrain the sales of tobacco to children.
  There are a number of reasons why the law as it stands does not work, but the chief of those is that it has not been properly enforced. Local authorities in Scotland currently take no effective part in preventing illegal sales of cigarettes; they have no powers to bring a case to court—that is the procurator fiscal's role—and they have not generally investigated complaints. Mostly, where investigations have been done at all, the police have been responsible, and they have admitted that they simply do not have the time to do the job properly, if at all.
  I am delighted—indeed, pleasantly surprised—that Scottish Office Ministers now see the sense of charging local authorities with responsibility in that area—even though, of course, the decision to prosecute remains the province of the procurator fiscal. I salute that change of heart and implore the Scottish Office to complete its good work by preparing guidance to local authorities on the use of this new power, based on best practice in curbing illegal cigarette sales. I hope, too, that a means will be found of ensuring that regional and islands councils will refer in their annual reports to action taken to monitor the situation and to investigate complaints.

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  Clause 4 introduces a framework for effective enforcement action in England and Wales. As I said, the failure of the legislation to date is largely due to the fact that it has been so inadequately enforced. On Second Reading, I cited a number of surveys demonstrating that up to half the shops that sell cigarettes in Britain were selling to children under 16 in open defiance of the law. Such surveys have continued and while, in a few areas, retailers are responding to public concern and acting responsibly, in too many instances the same familiar pattern of law-breaking is evident. The reason for that is that traders have been able to take it for granted that they would not be prosecuted. A survey at the end of 1989 of 110 local authorities showed that 104 had prosecuted no one in the three years since the 1986 Act was passed.
  There was, perhaps, confusion about who was responsible. There were local authorities that literally did not appear to know that the law existed. Many local authorities thought the responsibility was that of the police, and the police took the view that the responsibility lay with the local authorities. This Bill acknowledges that the primary responsibility for enforcing the law should lie with local authorities.
  If the amendments to clause 4 are accepted by the House, as I hope, a duty would be placed on one tier of local government to consider, at least once a year, the extent to which it is appropriate for them to carry out in their areas a programme of enforcement action designed to control all aspects of cigarette sales to children. The nature of that programme is defined.
  I will not pretend to the House that I would not have liked this part of the Bill to be even more specific, but I believe that these provisions, taken together with the supplementary guidance that the Department of the Environment is to issue, will create the conditions for a real blitz on illegal cigarette sales, whenever and wherever necessary.
  It will, in future, be abundantly clear that local authorities do have the responsibility to act, that some specific local authorities must fully consider the matter on an annual basis, and that they have the power to investigate and to prosecute, and to take any other steps they consider appropriate. When the Bill becomes law, it will never again be possible for one of the relevant local authorities either to claim that it has no power to act or that it is not responsible for acting in this area. It is therefore a major advance.
  The effect of the measure as a whole will be to make absolutely plain the responsibility of retailers not to sell to children under 16, to deter them from selling single cigarettes to children and to make it easy to deal with any loophole provided by the availability of vending machines.
  Other provisions in the Bill simplify most usefully the nature of offences and raise substantially the level of fines that can be imposed by the courts. The retail industry is on notice. When this legislation completes its course through Parliament, as I hope will happen this summer, it will not pay to sell cigarettes to children.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: I am trying to pursue the hon. Gentleman's argument. He suggests that the problem with enforcement is that one has to have the necessary evidence to take a case to court. How does he suggest that that evidence should be produced? Will he use children as
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  agents provocateurs? How will he get the essential truth? I agree that we should protect our children by education and parental control, but I do not think that there will be a large number of additional prosecutions as a result of this clause.
  10 am
  Mr. Faulds: I wondered how long it would be before I received an intervention from that quarter. The hon. Gentleman was one of the most interventionist of hon. Members in Committee—not always with the most useful contributions. He asks a simple question—he usually does ask simple questions—and I can only respond as best I can.
  The hon. Gentleman uses the phrase "agents provocateurs" as if we were trying to do something improper by the use of children in acquiring evidence about the illegal sales of cigarettes. We argued this question in Committee, and he knows in his heart of hearts that we are not going to get prosecutions unless we have the help of children under the age of 16 who are sold cigarettes. That has to be part of the process and I think that in his kinder moments he would probably accept the necessity for that sort of action.
  I was winding up my comments on this passage of the Bill, saying that local authorities should be under notice that parents throughout the United Kingdom expect action on this matter. Central Government will have an active part to play in monitoring the situation and calling to account either the industry or the enforcing agencies if the law is neglected in any area.
  I am immensely cheered by the fact that in consultations and discussions with the Government, and after the very healthy presages of the Committee, we have managed to achieve this enormous improvement on what is now an appalling status quo.
  Mr. Michael Knowles: I listened carefully to what my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said from the Front Bench on this subject, and I shall come to my reaction later, as I have tabled an amendment to delete this clause. I want to comment on what the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) has said.
  Obviously, there are worries when we impose fresh duties on local government—something that we do all too lightly in the House. On occasion, it seems that every Bill will have to be enforced by local councils at one level or another, without regard to manpower considerations or cost. However, with the other hand, we apply pressure on local councils to contain their costs, although their duties are increased, and that is unreasonable. Local government continuously objects to it, and rightly so.
  I served in local government for a long time and I know precisely what pressures are brought to bear from time to time by Government Departments. If a pressure group gets on to a Department about a certain issue, the whole of a council's resources should then be devoted to that cause, whatever it is. The next year, there will be another pressure group campaigning about something else.
  It is difficult to bring prosecutions for this offence. Last year, the figure was 27. It is difficult to obtain the information on which one can push for a prosecution, but there are problems with the use of agents provocateurs. The hon. Member for Warley, East lightly swept that argument aside, but there are serious moral and legal questions over such a use of children.

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  Is it right that children should be used to incite another person to break the law? That is a serious question. Is there not a danger that those children will lose respect for the law and consider that it is correct to do something if they are told to do so by a person in authority?
  It is illegal to incite the committing of a crime and those who use that method to bring prosecutions might well find that it is deemed illegal when a case reaches a sufficiently advanced stage in court. One never knows—that is always a danger.
  I do not dismiss the use of children as agents provocateurs lightly, but it seems to raise a host of problems to which we should give careful consideration.
  Miss Joan Lestor: I share the hon. Gentleman's concern, but does he agree that when children are seen coming out of a tobacconist with cigarettes, it is legitimate evidence, because that is where much of the evidence was collected?
  Mr. Knowles: I agree absolutely with the hon. Lady, but it is difficult to do that.
  Another matter that I am not certain about, although it is dealt with in another clause, is whether tobacconists are deliberately selling cigarettes to children on a large scale. I do not accept that, as I do not think that people in this country go around deliberately breaking the law. It can be difficult to distinguish between a 15-year-old and a 16-year-old child. In Committee, I mentioned memories of my youth, when children over the age limit used to buy cigarettes, break open the packet and sell them individually. However, I never came across cases of tobacconists breaking open packets, although that does not mean that it does not happen, and I think that it is more usually older children who do that.
  Mr. Richard Page: My hon. Friend mentions a serious problem. Is he in dispute with Parents Against Tobacco, which says that £90 million a year is spent by children on tobacco? Does he think that that figure is wrong?
  Mr. Knowles: I do not think that under-age children are going to tobacconists and spending that money themselves. I suspect that the money is spent indirectly, with children over the age buying the cigarettes and selling them on. That has been my experience.
  Mr. Michael Brown: We have just been given one of the figures. It does not make the problem any easier, but it is important for my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Page) to remember that that figure of £90 million, which is probably accurate, in part consists of sales by children over the age of 16 or by adults, who have bought cigarettes legally, for their friends standing outside the retailer's shop. However, that does not absolve society.
  Mr. Knowles: The hon. Member for Warley, East said that no one outside the tobacco industry has any doubts about the health arguments. I tend to agree with him there. That is also true of the drink and butter industries. We are told that innumerable things are threats to our health, but it is difficult to argue that that should give us the right as legislators to interfere with people's choice. In Committee and on Second Reading, there was a straight clash of principle on that subject. I start from a libertarian
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  position, but there is a broad divide in the House which does not necessarily run between the parties so much as across them.
  Mr. Roger Sims: Does my hon. Friend agree that a number of products are harmful when taken in excess, and it is right that people should be free to have them, provided that they realise their effects? Tobacco products are unique in that they are harmful per se. Therefore, there is a clear distinction to be drawn.
  Mr. Knowles: That is where the clash comes: in the principle of the libertarian argument about people's right to prescribe what others do, and that of individual choice. It applies to a whole range of matters.
  Mr. Alan Williams: The hon. Gentleman is in danger of setting up a spurious argument. We are talking about children. If the hon. Gentleman believes that it is wrong to preclude children from exercising choice in regard to tobacco, he must apply the same argument to restrictions on alcohol and fireworks. For centuries, we have taken for granted our responsibility to protect the young from themselves. We are not talking about robbing adults of choice.
  Mr. Knowles: If I could get out more than two sentences at a time, I might be able to answer some of the points that are being made.
  The hon. Member for Warley, East said that the Bill was not as strong as he had originally wanted it to be, and that he had been forced to compromise. Approaching the matter from the opposite direction, I find myself in much the same position. I suspected that, although the word "children"—which is always good emotive stuff—was incorporated in the Bill's title, the driving force behind it was a generalised attack on the tobacco industry, for which children were being used as an excuse. Whether people like it or not, the tobacco industry is still legal and will, I believe, continue to be so.
  As for the generalised libertarian question, I always view such measures with suspicion, because I would rather fight in the first ditch than fight in the last. If the argument is lost in regard to tobacco, similar restrictions will then be applied to drink and fatty substances, and newspaper censorship will follow. When the people who know best want to tell others how they should lead their lives, there are no limits to the argument. I am entirely against that argument, which runs, "It is all for your own good. All you have to do is surrender your freedom to me."
  I think that we are getting somewhere, however, I hope to speak on some of the amendments later; but I am more than happy to accept the assurances of my hon. Friend the Minister, and, in the light of what he has said, I shall not oppose new clause 2.
  Mr. Robert Maclennan: I welcome new clause 2, which attempts to bring Scottish law into line with the Bill's proposals for England, allowing for the differences between the prosecution systems of the two countries.
  It is generally recognised—certainly by Parents Against Tobacco—that the problem of children under 16 acquiring cigarettes illegally is greater in Scotland than in England. Had the matter not been tackled, the Bill would have contained a serious lacuna. The Minister has shown an enlightened awareness of the problem from the outset, but the same tribute cannot be paid to his Scottish colleagues.

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  For years, the Scottish Office has been reluctant to fund research into under-age smoking, with the result that, while the latest figures available in England were produced in 1988, the latest Scottish figures were produced in 1986.
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's kind references to me. When I voiced my concern, and that of the Committee, about the absence of enforcement measures in Scotland, my Scottish ministerial colleagues immediately saw the point, shared my concern and worked hard to consult local authorities speedily, so that the new clause could be tabled on Report.
  10.15 am
  Mr. Maclennan: The Minister has indeed exercised considerable persuasive skills to bring round his Scottish colleagues to a somewhat more enlightened view than they had previously demonstrated, and I welcome the changes that are being made.
  Under clause 4(2)(a), English local authorities' "programme of enforcement action" includes
  "the bringing of prosecutions in respect of offences under the principal section".
  Perhaps inevitably, there is no comparable provision for Scotland, because of the responsibility of the procurators fiscal for bringing prosecutions there. I hope that the difference in criminal procedure will not make local authorities any less assiduous in seeking to assist the prosecuting authorities in the collation and production of evidence, and in encouraging the bringing of prosecutions for the evil that under-age smoking causes. It is difficult to measure the scale of that evil, which causes permanent damage to the health of hundreds of thousands of children. The figures produced by Parents Against Tobacco have not been seriously challenged in any quarter.
  This is a valuable measure, which supplements a Bill introduced by the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) in 1986. I congratulate the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) on his sterling work.
  Mr. Page: I wish not to discuss the principles and purposes behind the Bill—the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) has done that very adequately in Committee and today—but to say a little about how I expect the Bill to operate in practice. I welcome new clause 2 and clause 4; I agree with my hon. Friend the Minister that they are the linchpin of the Bill and will determine whether it succeeds of fails.
  I am a great believer in the deterrence theory. I hope that the Bill will set up what is known in boxing parlance as the old one-two. We are looking for the straight left in the form of local authority enforcement, and the right hook represented by adequate fines from magistrates. The £100 average is ludicrous; I believe that the maximum fine should be imposed and I should like the press to play the role of referee.
  The press must give such cases must more publicity when they come to court, so that people are made aware that they are patronising a shopkeeper who, for a few measly pence, is prepared to put children's health at risk. They should consider whether it is worth their while to patronise a shopkeeper who is so careless of our children's
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  health. If someone were caught putting poison into baby food, the subsequent court case would be publicised throughout the country.
  People who sell children tobacco are poisoning them as surely as they would be if they put poison in their food. The time scale is longer, but in setting up an addictive habit they are condemning those children to eventual illness and disease. Because more young girls are smoking nowadays, shopkeepers are condemning not only the present generation but the next generation. More deformed children are likely to be born, along with children who will have less chance at school because of the proven effect on the intelligence of children of women who smoke.
  Local authorities, magistrates and every Member of Parliament must ensure that when the Bill is enacted it is enforced. I want every hon. Member to say to the local authority in his or her area, "What do you intend to do to enforce the provisions of the Bill?" In accordance with clause 4 and new clause 2, I want them every year thereafter to say to their local authorities "Can I have a copy of your monitoring for the year?"
  Sir Trevor Skeet: I have listened keenly to my hon. Friend's observations. He suggests that the onus should be placed on local authorities and he wants maximum fines to be imposed by magistrates. What about the responsibility of parents and teachers? Huge penalties are all very well, but the training of parents has been ignored. My hon. Friend puts the responsibility entirely on Parliament, but that is not Parliament's responsibility.
  Mr. Page: One of the virtues of an intervention before one has finished one's speech is that one can disregard what one intended to say later. In conclusion, I was running through the responsibilities of Members of Parliament and others, that lie beyond the provisions of the Bill, but my hon. Friend has done the job for me. He rightly points out that parents have a role to play in preventing their children from smoking. He also rightly says that more emphasis should be placed on the role of schools in educating children about the dangers of smoking. My hon. Friend has done it so eloquently that there is no need for me to say more.
  Mr. Alan Williams rose—
  Mr. Page: I ought to return now to the role of Parliament, but I see that the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) wishes to intervene.
  Mr. Williams: I endorse the hon. Gentleman's point entirely, but are we not now in the fatuous situation, as a result of the protestations of the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet), where the campaign to stop children from smoking has become the moral responsibility of everyone except the tobacco industry? The one sector which appears to have no moral obligation is that which, due to its odious dishonesty about the dangers of its product, has tried to deceive both the public and youngsters about the hazards that they face if they smoke tobacco.
  Mr. Page: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I do not intend to get involved this morning in the libertarian argument about whether the provisions of the Bill should apply to the entire population or should be applied only for the protection of children. In a

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  previous intervention the right hon. Gentleman made the point that the Bill provides for the protection of children until they reach the age when they can make the decision for themselves, and I intend to stick to that argument. The right hon. Gentleman, who sits beside me on the Public Accounts Committee, and I have seen many a report highlighting the cost to this nation of the effects of smoking tobacco on people's health, including coronary heart disease and many other associated illnesses. However, if I were to go down that route we should be here for a long time and it would not serve the purposes of the debate.
  I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) for supporting my view that parents, schools and everyone else should take part in the moral crusade to prevent children from smoking. Local authorities must, however, provide the sharp cutting edge of enforcement and magistrates must back up the enforcement. Then, I hope, fewer children will smoke and the result will be a healthier nation.
  Mr. Robert Banks: I welcome the amendments that we are debating—in particular, new clause 2 and the amendments to tidy up clause 4. In Committee I made the plea that we should make the language of the Bill understandable and I congratulate the Minister on achieving that aim. On many occasions I have emphasised that the legislation that we pass should be couched in language which makes quite clear what its purpose is.
  The hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) said that he had sought consensus. Both he and the Minister have achieved it. One has only to consider the provisions of the Bill before it went into Committee to realise that now they have been honed to a workable form.
  I remind my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) that legislation prohibiting the sale of tobacco to children has been in place since 1933, so local authorities already have that responsibility. All that the Bill does is to emphasise their role in bringing prosecutions and ensuring that there is adequate publicity about preventing the sale of tobacco products to children.
  Much has been said in the debate about the libertarian aspect. My view is this; smoking is habit forming, and if we permit children to smoke there is the danger that the habit may carry through into later life and seriously damage their health. Nevertheless, we must remember that children will be children. When they mature, they can make logical decisions about what substances to consume—be it tobacco, alcohol or anything else—but during the growing-up process they will inevitably try things that are not necessarily good for them. Therefore, Members of Parliament—including those of us who are parents—have a role to play. Local authorities also have a role to play in ensuring that the legislation is enforced. I sympathise with local authorities when the legislation that we pass leads to additional expenditure, due to the extra personnel that they have to employ, but in this instance we are emphasising a role that they already have under the 1933 Act and asking them to get on with that important job.
  Mr. Michael Brown: I do not intend to oppose new clause 2, which will bring the law in Scotland into line with the provisions that we agreed in Standing Committee. I do not intend, either, to oppose the other amendments in this grouping. Before we agree them, however, I should like to
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  refer to some of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Page). I thought that he had gone off his head this morning; normally, he is so sensible about the role of governmental organisations and local authorities. Therefore, I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) intervened. He made exactly the same point as had occurred to me.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks) said, it has been against the law to sell tobacco to children since 1933. However the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) believes, and there is evidence to support his view, that, notwithstanding the fact that it is against the law for tobacco to be sold to children, they are nevertheless getting hold of it. Therefore the hon. Gentleman and the Minister have proposed amendments to ensure that the law is enforced. Even though an Act has been on the statute books since 1933, more and more children appear to be buying cigarettes.
  The sponsor of the Bill and his hon. Friends support the Bill enthusiastically. I support the Bill's reaching the statute book, but not with a great deal of enthusiasm, because I believe that, in two, three or four years' time when local authorities have produced their annual reports, they will say that the problem is as bad as ever. It might even have got worse.
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  However much we seek to enforce the law—I agree that it should be enforced, and if there is evidence that the law has been broken it is essential that prosecutions take place, maximum fines are imposed and the penalties are severe enough to be a deterrent —I am concerned that it will not change what goes on in the real world. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) said, it is quite possible for people to beat the law.
  Most evenings at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock or midnight a group of teenagers who have nothing better to do hang around the war memorial in the village where I live. Some of them are over 16 and some are under 16. I know jolly well that, notwithstanding the intentions behind the Bill, those over 16 will go into the village shop and legally buy cigarettes and those under 16 will smoke them. No law will have been broken because the cigarettes will have been purchased by those over 16. They will probably have done exactly what was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East in Committee and sold them singly for lop a throw. Ultimately, it is the duty of the House to do all that it can to prevent illegal sales of cigarettes to those under 16—and it has been illegal since 1933—of course and to ensure that any changes in the law are enforced by the agencies outside. The Bill clarifies that it is the duty of local authorities to enforce the law and clears up the doubt over whether is is the duty of the police or of local authorities.
  The rumours in the papers regarding the announcement to be made by the Secretary of State for the Environment leaves my constituency in some doubt. The Minister will clarify today whether it will be the district council or the county council, through its trading standards office, that enforces the provisions of the Bill. I should point out that I represent a constituency in the county of Humberside. According to "Newsnight" last night, apparently the county of Humberside is not much longer for this world. In the event that the county is abolished—I hope that it is —how will the Bill's provisions apply to my constituency?

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  Will the legislation relating to the reorganisation of local government which is likely to be introduced later this year have to be amended, or will the Bill have to be amended to deal with the fact that later this year I will represent a constituency within a county that does not exist? Will the Minister tell me what is likely to happen?
  In conclusion, let me summarise some of my misgivings about the Bill. Ultimately, for all the enforcement agencies and local authorities which may or may not exist, we come back to the parents. I am glad that the organisation is called Parents Against Tobacco as parents are the most important group of people who can do something about children smoking. What I should like to happen around the country and in Ulceby, the village where I live, is for parents and responsible people to say to the parents of children who smoke, "Your son is not 16 yet, is he? I could have sworn that I saw him smoking outside the Spar shop in the village the other day." That is what used to happen in the 1950s and 1960s when I was a schoolboy. I knew jolly well that if I were ever tempted to smoke the lady who lived across the road from my family would speak to my mother and say, "I could have sworn that I saw Michael smoking the other day. He is not 16 yet, is he?" That is the most effective way to deal with the problem.
  Mr. Page: Did that actually happen to my hon. Friend and did it stop him smoking?
  Mr. Brown: Yes, it did. I can honestly say that I never had one puff of a cigarette and I admit that I was a pretty dreadful child, as I am sure all hon. Members would expect. I was intimidated by my parents, the neighbours and, most of all, by my teachers who regarded the idea of anyone in their charge smoking—that also applied to those aged over 16 as I stayed at school until I went to university —as unacceptable. At my secondary modern school, the penalties for anyone between the ages of 16 and 18 caught smoking on the school premises were extremely severe. I only regret that it is not possible for the Bill to contain provisions for teachers to spend a little more time, effort and energy on enforcing the ideas behind it, as teachers are letting the side down. In the average comprehensive secondary school today, teachers do not recognise the crime of smoking under the age of 16 in the same way as we do. The rules should be toughened up through the education system.
  Parents and teachers can have a far greater impact than any legislation. That is not to say that I do not accept and understand the need for legislation. I agree that if it reaches the statute book the Bill will improve matters. I hope that my hon. Friend's Department and the Department of Health will start keeping statistics as soon as the Bill reaches the statute book and that in a year or two years' time we can have an Adjournment debate on the issue to see whether there is any change for the better. I have a shrewd suspicion that although there may be some improvement, we need to get the message through to parents. Parents Against Tobacco needs to get the message through.
  I have an interesting critique of the Parents Against Tobacco campaign written by Mr. Chris Cooper. He suggests that some of their statements should be reworded. He writes:
  "Did Des Wilson perhaps in the early stages of drafting his denunciations of the buying of cigarettes by children ever blurt out anything indiscreet, such as, 'You negligent, improvident, irresponsible parents let your children run wild
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  without thought for their health and now we, the right-thinking, energetic, caring parents arc going to have to do your job for you.' If he ever did, squads of PR people stepped in to soften the message without moderating the excitable prose. The parents of this country will not allow the heath of their children to be threatened and their lives to be potentially curtailed by the activities and products of a ruthlessly cynical industry."
  We must acknowledge that there is an element of buck-passing. We pass the buck to the House of Commons, to the courts, to the police and now to either the district councils or the county councils. We are now saying that all of them have a responsibility, but, ultimately, we shall not get a grip on the problem until there is a greater sense of parental and teacher discipline on children, which is lacking not only on the question of smoking but on a range of other issues. Smoking is only the symptom of a breakdown of teacher and parental discipline. Although we, as responsible citizens representing our constituents, are right to try to do what we can to put the Bill on the statute book, parents must exercise greater discipline.
  When I see people in my village and tap them on the shoulder—which I do as a responsible Member of Parliament—to draw their attention to one or two things that their children are doing and suggest that their children should not run riot through the village a 11 pm, midnight, or I am, that they should perhaps not get drunk and should not smoke if they are under the age of 16 and that they get up to no good, the parents do not like it. Little Johnny can do no wrong. Until we break through that attitude, we shall make no progress, whatever legislation is on the statute book.
  I welcome the new clause in so far as it relates to Scotland—it merely repeats what we wrote into the Bill in Committee—and although I also support the other amendments, I urge a note of caution. Until teachers and parents recognise their responsibilities, we are unlikely to change some of the statistics which were given by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East.
  Miss Lestor: We know now that the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) was a model child and was never tempted down the path followed by so many other hon. Members. I was also a model child and never smoked.
  I recently heard an hon. Member describe something that had happened and say, "I slept like a baby." I remember thinking that that man had never been involved with one. I now say to the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes—that paragon of virtue—that I am certain that he has never been a parent. If he had, he would know that although all parents have responsibility, we cannot hold them solely responsible for the actions of their children. Parents are often fighting against an ethos in society which encourages their children to go in the opposite direction to that which they would have wanted. It was not parents who, in the 1960s, encouraged their children to smoke cannabis. Parents have a responsibility, but so do we all. That does not mean that the House should not try to enact legislation that makes it easier for parents to carry out their responsibilities and not have them undermined by irresponsible shopkeepers and irresponsible advertising.

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  When talking about passing the buck, we can make a contribution by saying that the buck stops here. I was going to take up what my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) said —
  Sir Trevor Skeet: Is the hon. Lady suggesting that parents should abdicate their responsibilities and that society should be run by the House or by legislators who, of course, always know best?
  Miss Lestor: I thought that I said the opposite, but I repeat that parents have responsibilities. Often what they try to do is undermined by other agencies and by the ethos of our society. That is what has happened with smoking.
  I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East on the Bill and on the way in which he has accommodated many hon. Members, especially the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes. I would not have been so generous. My hon. Friend almost described the Committee as a love-in and I was going to take him up on that. However, having listened to the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes say that although he disagreed with the Bill he would go along with it, I believe that my hon. Friend was right: those of us who believe in the Bill influenced hon. Members who had doubts to say that they would support it.
  It is important that we clarify who has responsibility. I, too, believe in deterrents. We can now publicise the fear of detection of those people who sell to under-age children and shopkeepers will now be aware of their responsibilities. We cannot stop youngsters over the age of 16 or adults giving cigarettes to children, but we can try to create an atmosphere in which they believe it to be undesirable. We do not have the power to go around our constituencies poking people and saying, "Look, we know what you are doing." We do not have such powers and some of us might get strange responses, but we can make it more difficult for children to smoke.
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  One important issue that has not been raised is that, whatever freedoms may exist in society for adults, the medical profession is concerned about the effect of smoking on young girls who can become addicted at an early age. There is a danger not only to their health but to the health, well-being, survival rates and weights of the babies that they produce. Anyone who knows anything about children's health is worried about that. One of the first questions that hospitals and doctors ask a pregnant woman—especially a young woman —is whether she smokes and they advise her not to do so. Smoking during pregnancy has an effect on the weight of a child and on the way in which it thrives. A motion was tabled on that issue during the previous Session.
  Women's magazines offer a temptation or invitation to smoke. Many young girls read such magazines arid we must do our bit to counter that by saying that there is another argument. We must create an ethos in which smoking is unfashionable and try to stop people selling cigarettes to children.
  The hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes introduced a red herring by asking who would be responsible if a local authority was abolished. I am sure that the Minister will deal with that issue. There are transfers of schedules and ways to deal with such issues. The hon. Gentleman introduced the red herring to raise doubts and to say that the Bill would not work. Until
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  legislation is on the statute book, we do not know whether it will work. Sometimes we must return to legislation to refine it and to deal with further difficulties, but if we all agree that we do not want our children to smoke, we must ensure that whatever parents, teachers and others do, people are not allowed to tempt our children and get away with breaking the law.
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: I wish to make a few comments in answer to points that have been made. As I said in my opening remarks, I understand the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles), who does not want unnecessary and expensive duties to be placed on local authorities. However, clause 4 would require local authorities to decide how best to enforce powers and responsibilities that they already have. We ask them to think carefully about how best to use them and put them into effect. I hope that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) will agree that time spent on reconnaissance is never wasted; that is equally true of local authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East said that he was not minded to press his amendment and I am glad that he came to that conclusion.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North was right to stress that cigarettes are harmful. Local authorities will have to take stock of how they use their powers and use them as effectively as possible so that children cannot buy cigarettes as easily as they have been able to do in many places.
  I was glad that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) welcomed the Government's new clause 2. He was right that Scottish local authorities do not prosecute, but they are best placed to provide the evidence to the procurator fiscal on which prosecutions may be based. I hope that those local authorities use their opportunities effectively and fully. That is the view and hope of my ministerial colleagues in the Scottish Office.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) was in a sombre —indeed, almost pessimis-tic—vein for most of his speech. He spoke about the difficulties of enforcement. Because this is a difficult area to enforce, we spent much time in Committee considering how to do that. The Government will assist by issuing a full and helpful circular and by ensuring that local authorities include in their annual reports information on what they are doing so that local people know what is happening in their area and can take the action that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes suggested that parents and teachers should take. I am glad that my hon. Friend accepted that we should do all that we reasonably can by legislation and I am grateful to him for that.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes asked who will enforce the law in his local authority area if the position changes. I am not sure what the possibilities are for his area, but I imagine that the authority may become a single-tier body. In that case, it is simple—those responsibilities that belong to the local authorities which are abolished will pass to the single-tier authority and responsibility for enforcing the Bill's provisions will belong to the local authority that has all the responsibilities for local government duties in my hon. Friend's constituency.
  I was impressed by the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes revealed that he was

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  intimidated by his parents when he was a child. I am not sure that he has ever been intimidated by anyone in the Chamber, as he repeatedly proves in his speeches. My hon. Friend was right to emphasise the disciplinary role of parents, teachers and other adults. I hope that that message will not be obscured by our concentrating on what we can do in legislation. I am sure that that will not happen, because my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North put that message before us constantly in Committee and again pithily this morning. His view found agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East and other hon. Members.
  I am grateful to the hon. Member for Eccles (Miss Lestor) for her support for the further changes that I have asked the House to make to the Bill. She rightly said that smoking is particularly bad for pregnant woment and can do much damage to their children. That should be widely known. The hon. Lady referred to advertising seen by young people. I draw her attention to the voluntary agreement that excluded advertising in a range of magazines that are particularly read by young women. Perhaps we shall return to that point later. It should be emphasised in concert with the hon. Lady's important point about young women.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

Clause 3

  SALE OF UNPACKAGED CIGARETTES
  Sir Trevor Skeet: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 2, line 24, leave out clause 3.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to consider Government amendments Nos. 3 and 4.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: The title of the Bill is the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Bill, but the primary concern of clause 3 is not children but adults—adults, not children, will be penalised. Under the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 and subsequent Acts, it is illegal to sell a packet of 10 cigarettes to a child of 16–I would be very much against that. It is also illegal to sell one cigarette out of a packet of 10 to a child, because the greater covers the lesser, so why repeat the point?
  It is extraordinary that the Bill not merely dots the i's but crosses the t's. There is a refusal to accept that when something is already illegal it is not necessary to make it illegal a second time. This provision is not necessary. What will happen if it is illegal to sell cigarettes individually? Small tobacconists face a 2·5 per cent. increase in VAT and a recession. They also face the possibility of higher penalties—I understand that scale 3 penalties will be imposed—such as a £1,000 fine if they make the great mistake of selling one cigarette to an adult. Seen in that light, it is ridiculous. It deprives a low-income person of the right to go into a shop to buy a single cigarette.
  We had an interesting debate on this matter in Committee. My hon. Friend the Minister said:
  "On the clause stand part debate I shall advise the Committee to drop clause 3".
  Nothing could be more specific than that. My hon. Friend also said:
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  "It is a piece of self-indulgent rhetorical legislation that we should eschew. It is already illegal to sell cigarettes to children."—[Official Report, Standing Committee C, 13 February 1991; c. 99–100.]
  My hon. Friend the Minister gave clear guidance in Committee and dealt adequately with the points that were raised. I hope that he will also consider the points that I raise today and that we can find a way round some of the difficulties.
  I should like to make a point about the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds). On our trips to the middle east, old friendships were restored. I am delighted that the Bill will go on the statute book. It deserves to be called the Faulds (No. 1) Bill. It will contribute to the long line of legislation dealing with children. No hon. Member wants children under 16 to smoke, but the means by which we propose to achieve that differ.
  The hon. Member for Warley, East believes that legislation should be supreme in this case. It is all very well to ask local authorities to prosecute. They can beaver away every day of the year trying to find a way to prosecute, but, unless they have evidence, there will be no convictions. In 1990, there were about 30 minor convictions for such offences.
  Ultimately, we must have confidence that people will abide by the law, and more than 90 per cent. of retailers recognise their responsibility and want to comply with the law. What evidence exists of abuse of the law against selling cigarettes to children under the age of 16?
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  The Minister has tabled an amendment to deal with enforcement. It recommends that the penalty be raised to scale 3, which seems rather tough. Formerly, the maximum fine was about £400, which was imposed by clause 15 of the Criminal Justice Bill 1991. Under scale 3 it will go up to £1,000. I understand why, in certain circumstances, courts should impose the full fine. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Page) recognised the fact that a severe punishment should exist, but I cannot see how the £1,000 fine would be appropriate unless a series of offences had been committed. Will my hon. Friend the Minister explain that point?
  Another Government amendment goes some way toward helping us and says that cigarettes should include cigars. However, cigars cannot be broken in half and handed around in that way. Therefore, they would have to be excluded because their inclusion would cause serious difficulties.
  This country is now part and parcel of the European Community. How does the Bill stand with regard to European legislation? The EC wanted to place an order that would be binding on the United Kingdom. Would clause 3 be acceptable to the Council of Ministers? Would it survive the microscope of Europe or would it have to be modified? As the matter has been partially dealt with, that is where we should deal with it finally. If the EC is about to legislate on the subject we should be cautious about legislating in the Chamber.
  Mr. George Galloway: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Have you had any notification of the Government's intention to make a statement today on this morning's publication of the Amnesty International report on the position of Palestinians and others in Kuwait? Twice in the past few

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  weeks and three times through letters to the Prime Minister, I have raised the issue of the imminent danger of a murderous pogrom against Palestinians in Kuwait, where British forces are situated. The current Government of Kuwait, which Amnesty International accuses of being involved, through their armed forces, in murder, torture and abduction, were reinstated to power partly with the help of the British armed forces. If a Sabra or Chatilla occur in Kuwait city under the shadow of British armed forces, it will have serious consequences.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have heard what the hon. Gentleman says, but I have received no such request. The matter will no doubt be dealt with by the Government.
  Mr. Hugo Summerson: May I say how much I support the amendment? I am extremely worried about clause 3 for several reasons. I was not on the Standing Committee but, in principle, I agree with the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) about the need to protect young children from tobacco. However, I have read clause 3 carefully and see no specific reference to young people. It states:
  "it shall be an offence for any person carrying on a retail business to sell cigarettes to any person other than in pre-packed quantities".
  It says nothing about persons under the age of 16. If it did so, I would support it, but as it does not I oppose it utterly.
  In certain parts of the country there has long been a custom of tobacconists selling cigarettes singly, particularly in my part of the world in the north-east. It would cause great resentment if that practice were stopped. In my constituency there is a specialist tobacconist, to which people come from miles around, to buy and sample products. It would make life difficult for such specialists if they could not sell cigarettes singly.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) said that children in his constituency were buying packets of cigarettes and selling them singly at lop each. As I believe that a packet of cigarettes now costs more than £2, my hon. Friend should teach those children a little about business matters.
  Mr. Geoffrey Dickens: We should bear in mind the fact that the tobacco industry supports the non-sale of cigarettes to persons under 16 years of age. However, Government figures suggest that some £70 million worth of cigarettes are being sold to juveniles. By the same token, it must be recognised that the tobacco industry spends £1 million advertising the fact that shopkeepers should not sell cigarettes to those under 16.
  The clause deals with selling cigarettes singly. In disadvantaged areas, many people like to take advantage of buying one or two cigarettes, especially at the end of the week. I fear that the clause will deprive them of that facility. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) clearly stated, a law already exists covering the sale of single cigarettes to children. As it is already unlawful for children to buy cigarettes, the clause is unnecessary and its removal would not undermine the current sound legislation.
  As a non-smoker who supports the tobacco industry, I feel that the industry has a difficult job to do. I support the withdrawal of the clause as it is unnecessary and hits disadvantaged people.
  Mr. Maclennan: Hon. Members who have spoken on the clause have shown little common sense. The section of the community which is most likely to—and, according to the only evidence that we have, does—buy cigarettes singly in any great numbers, is that of children.
  Mr. Summerson: No.
  Mr. Maclennan: The hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) did not produce a scintilla of evidence that there was large-scale purchasing of single cigarettes by adults, and nor did the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens). If the evidence had been available it would have been brought before us by the tobacco lobby, which clearly has an interest in stopping as much of the Bill as it can. I do not believe that any such evidence exists.
  Mr. Michael Brown: The specific point is that if a shopkeeper has been selling single cigarettes to children, that shopkeeper has already committed an offence under the 1933 legislation. Therefore, the only people who can possibly be affected by the introduction of clause 3 are people aged over 16, to whom the Bill does not generally apply.
  Mr. Maclennan: That is not quite my point, but I will deal with it later. I was dealing with sales of single cigarettes to adults. I do not believe that there is any evidence of extensive sales of single cigarettes to adults. If there had been, I have no doubt that it would have been brought before the House during the passage of the Bill.
  Mr. Dickens: I said that there was £70 million worth of sales to juveniles, which represented just 1 per cent. of all sales in the United Kingdom. If the hon. Gentleman wants evidence, he should ask who is buying all the other cigarettes.
  Mr. Maclennan: Cigarettes are normally sold in packets. The evidence is that single sales relate to children. The most persuasive evidence put before the House was that of the 1985 Bristol survey. That evidence also showed clearly the extent to which children who smoke when aged 14 to 15 are hooked on the habit by buying single cigarettes. More than half of those children bought single cigarettes over a period. That is a problem.
  The fanciful suggestion that we are depriving adults of the possibility of smoking because they cannot afford to buy more than one or two cigarettes at a time seems, when weighed in the balance against under-age smoking, to be seriously flawed. I well remember the words of the Tom Lehrer song about today's young innocent faces being tomorrow's clientele.
  This is one of the Bill's more important clauses because one of our great difficulties in enforcing the ban is producing the evidence. Clearly, evidence of cigarette packets that have been partially broken into to obtain single cigarettes could be compelling evidence when seeking to enforce the rigours of the law.
  Mr. Robert Banks: I supported the clause in Committee when we had a long and intricate debate on it. I received publicity in my constituency for my stand on banning the sale of single cigarettes. I have not received any letters from anyone complaining that they buy single cigarettes and would be deprived of doing so under the clause.
  Mr. Maclennan: I am extremely grateful for the hon. Gentleman's helpful intervention. I am sure that his common sense attitude is the one which the House should display towards the clause. The provisions of the clause seem to be a sensible attempt to bolster the Bill's purpose. Those who argue against it must address the clear evidence that young people buy cigarettes singly and there are unscrupulous shopkeepers prepared to sell them singly, repeatedly, until children are hooked. That is one of the main causes of under-age smoking. The Bill tackles it effectively and I hope that the House will support it.
  11.15 am
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) who has just moved the amendment in a vigorous, common-sense and slightly teasing style, I had considerable misgivings about the relevance of the clause to the rest of the Bill, for a number of reasons. As he said, I put those reasons fully in Committee.
  First, it is already an offence to sell cigarettes to children. Therefore, the clause partly duplicates the existing law. Secondly, in practice or in theory, depending on whether one believes that adults buy cigarettes singly, the clause limits adults' rights, albeit in a small way. As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson) said, it is not the Bill's specific purpose to prevent cigarettes from being sold in ones or twos to adults.
  I was also concerned that the clause might contravene article 30 of the treaty of Rome as an unnecessary restriction of trade. The Government have given that matter further consideration and do not consider that they need to oppose the clause on the ground of the risk of challenge under the treaty. Apart from what has been said by one or two of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, we are not aware that, at present, cigarettes are sold in packets of less than 10, and are not often sold singly to adults. However, there is evidence that they are sold singly to children. Unless such facts were to be introduced, we consider the risk of challenge under article 30 to be very small.
  Hon. Members who were members of the Standing Committee will recall that we had a robust debate on the clause, which was ordered to stand part of the Bill by the casting vote of the Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill). In voting in support of the clause, my hon. Friend was following tradition and precedent, and I have no quarrel with his decision. However, I noted carefully the views of the supporters of the clause on both sides of the Committee, and I understood their special concern about children picking up the smoking habit by initially buying cigarettes in ones or twos. We want to put a stop to that, as I believe do all hon. Members.
  The Bill's main purpose is to stop the supply of cigarettes to children under 16. We are addressing that problem in several ways. The Bill strengthens the law on illegal sales and increases the penalty for such offences. It also clarifies the role of local authorities in enforcing the law. However, I recognise that there is a strongly held view that some errant retailers contrive to believe that there is nothing unlawful about selling single cigarettes to children or, where they do understand that it is unlawful, they believe that they can get away with it.
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  Therefore, I understand the attraction to many hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), the Bill's sponsor, in having a specific provision on the face of the Bill to prohibit the sale of single cigarettes. I have also been influenced by my ministerial colleagues, particularly those at the Department of Health, who are in favour of the clause, and by representations that I have received from local organisations and members of the public.
  Last, but certainly not least, I have considered the views of the Government's chief medical officer, who has told me of his support for the clause. Having had the opportunity to reflect on the matter and weigh up the strongly held views on both sides, and then having reflected again, particularly during this debate, my conclusion is that the clause should be left in the Bill.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: My hon. Friend has the interests of children under 16 at heart, but he will have seen the figures produced by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys showing that, in 1982, the percentage of boys who smoked at least one cigarette a week was 11 per cent. By 1988, the figure had dropped to 7 per cent. It is well down, so boys are smoking less. In the same period, the figure for girls dropped from II per cent. to 9 per cent. If the trend is in the right direction, do we require this hammer to deal with it?
  Mr. Lloyd: If there are opportunities to reinforce that welcome trend, it would be irresponsible of us not to take them.
  The Government no longer wish to oppose clause 3. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North, who advanced some powerful and extremely familiar arguments against the clause, will likewise decide, on balance, not to press for its deletion. He quoted me as saying that there was something of self-indulgence in the clause. I used those words, and I think there is, but occasionally it is right for the House to indulge itself, and if it does so on this matter, children will he the beneficiaries.
  Amendment No. 3 makes it an offence to sell upackaged cigarettes. Its purpose is simply to provide a penalty for that offence at level 3 on the standard scale. The maximum fine under level 3 is £400, but it will rise to £1,000 when the Criminal Justice Bill is enacted. A level 3 fine seems the right maximum penalty for the offence. We agreed in Committee that level 4 was the correct penalty for the main offences under the Bill of selling cigarettes to children under 16 and for failure to comply with a court order on vending machines.
  I cannot accept that it is right to set a similar maximum penalty for selling one cigarette to an adult. That is surely a less serious offence, and the penalty should reflect that. Where a retailer is accused of selling cigarettes to children under 16—even a single cigarette—he can be prosecuted under clause 1 and face the higher penalty under level 4 of £1,000, rising to £2,500 under the Criminal Justice Bill. If a retailer sells a single cigarette to a child, there is nothing to prevent him from being charged under clause 3 and under the principal provision. We shall give guidance to local authorities in the circular that we propose to issue when the Bill is enacted.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: There appear to be two levels of penalties—one for selling to a child and another for selling to an adult. Should not the clause say so?
  Mr. Lloyd: It is perfectly clear. If someone is charged under clause 1 for selling cigarettes in packets of 10, in boxes of 200 or only one, the higher penalty is available to the court. If someone is charged under clause 3, only the lower penalty—level 3—is available to the court. If a single cigarette is sold to a child, a prosecution can be brought under both clauses and the court will decide what the fine should be. I believe that it is clear what is available to the prosecution. If evidence shows that someone has sold cigarettes to a child in ones, 10s or 200s, they should speedily consult their solicitor. If someone sold a single cigarette, he would have to plead hard at court to avoid substantial fines on both counts.
  Mr. Faulds: I am very pleased that, since Second Reading, we have managed to achieve a consensus, in Committee and with the Minister, on the important point concerning single cigarette sales. Clause 3 was designed to end the practice of breaking open packs and offering cigarettes for sale singly, and often at an inflated price.
  The House should be in no doubt that my motive is to help bring smoking by children and young teenagers to an end. Hon. Members sympathetic to the tobacco industry may declare that I intend more—that I really want to prevent adults from smoking. That suggestion has leaked through, but I must simply deny it. Adults who are smoking are to be pitied for their costly addiction. Let their doctors urge them to stop. Such advice is the province of the medical profession, which has offered it strenuously over decades.
  Only yesterday, the Townswomen's Guild conference on drug and alcohol abuse heard from doctors that smoking is far more dangerous than hard drug addiction. That may appear odd, but apparently it is the case. It causes overwhelmingly more deaths and fills many more beds in our hospital wards. Dr. Claire Gerada, talking of the impact of drug addiction during pregnancy, said that a pregnant mother who smoked 20 cigarettes a day would do far more harm to her unborn child than a pregnant woman who injected heroin every day with a fresh needle.
  But if we can stop smoking in childhood, we should make enormous inroads into the whole range of adult problems associated with tobacco. Most people take up the habit before the age of 18. At root, tobacco use is caused by addiction begun in childhood. I am sure that the whole House will share my ambition to choke off this life-denying habit before it takes hold.
  Unscrupulous traders who seek to make an even higher profit from children smoking will break open packs and sell a cigarette singly, often with a match, to children who cannot afford the price of a packet. The argument—of course, it is plausible—was that the law already forbade the sale of cigarettes to children under 16, and thus a law preventing the sale of single cigarettes was unnecessary.
  The Minister explained his conversion, and the Committee looked at further evidence, including a recent paper published in the British Journal of Addiction, showing that the habit of selling cigarettes singly to children is particularly prevalent in poor areas, and that the more cigarettes a child smokes the more likely the child will be to buy them singly.
  Clause 3 will make it illegal for retailers to sell cigarettes except in the original pack of 10 or more. It is most unlikely that it will have any effect on the trade in cigarettes to the adult market. One retailer who wrote objecting to the clause admitted that he never sold
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  cigarettes singly to adults. I cannot conceive that local authorities would seek to take action under the clause unless they very firmly believed that the trader was supplying children with cigarettes from broken packs.
  In such circumstances, the clause will create a powerful additional offence, designed to bring an end to the deliberate recruitment of children to the smoking habit. On that basis, I am happy to accept the level 3 fine for this offence, since the level 4 fine, which will apply to the principal clause on cigarette sales to children, is still in the frame.
  Miss Lestor: The hon. Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) says that smoking among young people and children is declining and asks why we need the Bill. But we do not usually remove from the statute book legislation designed to prevent people from breaking the law just because the incidence of the particular offence with which it deals has declined. The hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that there are new children coming along all the time; we are not talking about the same young people.
  Smoking may indeed decline among a certain group for two or three years at a time, but any graph will show that that decline is not constant. We are talking about the young people of the future as well as those of the present, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) said, it would be interesting to discover what has happened to youngsters who took up smoking when they were under age and to ascertain whether they are now addicted. My hon. Friend rightly said that addiction may start very early on.
  11.30 am
  We have heard much about the possibility of our preventing adults from smoking if we make it illegal for cigarette packets to be broken open by retailers. One question that we have not considered—and we shall not be dealing with it in this debate—is that although we may say that adults are responsible for themselves and that it is up to them whether they smoke, their smoking has an effect on other people, and the fact that the rest of us inhale their smoke and their poison is receiving a great deal of attention from the medical profession.
  As someone who has been as pure in my habits over the years as the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown), I object very strongly to inhaling other people's smoke. If hon. Members have any concern for our health in this place, they will recall that my throat was severely affected for a long time, and I was certainly not helped by the fact that I had to attend a large number of meetings at which people were allowed to smoke. Adult smoking affects not only the individuals concerned but the rest of society.
  Although some adults buy single cigarettes, more appear to be sold to children. The point of the clause is that it would provide shopkeepers with a safeguard. In Committee, we discussed the difficulty that shopkeepers may experience in refusing young people who seek to intimidate them and the need for a notice explaining that it is against the law to sell cigarettes to young people. If we make it illegal for shopkeepers to open packets of cigarettes and sell the contents singly, we shall be providing them with another safeguard. A shopkeeper can say, "Sorry lads; I'm not allowed to sell you single cigarettes. I'm not allowed to open the packet."

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  To an extent, the clause will also deal with the case of the young person over the age of 16 who goes into a shop to buy two or three single cigarettes to sell to youngsters under the age of 16. I accept that the clause may prevent some adults from buying single cigarettes, although I do not think that the practice is very widespread. Nevertheless, the clause represents a useful way of helping shopkeepers to avoid breaking the law by telling youngsters, "I cannot open the packet of cigarettes, so you will have to go away." That is a good reason for retaining the clause.
  Mr. Robert Banks: I agree with the speech that we have just heard. There appears to be uncertainty in the House —and certainly outside it—about the number of adults who go into shops to purchase single cigarettes. We just do not know, although I think that the number must be very small indeed.
  One thing about which we can be certain, however, is that children go into shops to buy single cigarettes. One of the problems that retailers face is that they cannot always be certain that young people are under 16. Children grow up very fast these days and many of them look older than they are. A retailer may therefore sell a single cigarette in good faith to someone of 14 or 15 believing that he is just over 16.
  The Minister's approach to the problem is highly commendable. We had a fine debate in Committee, at the end of which, on the Chairman's casting vote, he was rebuffed and failed to achieve his then aim of deleting the clause. Nevertheless, my hon. Friend went to the trouble of obtaining expert advice. I think that he would agree with me that if we retain the clause, we shall have a belt-and-braces policy on the sale of single cigarettes to under 16-year-olds. I most certainly support the clause, because it is all too easy for a child to obtain smoking material in the form of single cigarettes. That is where the chain starts, and that is what we want to avoid. That is the purpose of the Bill.
  The sale of single unwrapped cigarettes should never be allowed. After all, we buy cigars that are wrapped and placed in tubes or other hygienic coverings.
  All in all, we shall be doing children a great service by retaining the clause.
  Mr. Michael Brown: In Committee, I started from the position then held by my hon. Friend the Minister. Even this morning, I had much sympathy for the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) and for the argument that he advanced. He asked why we needed the provision, given that it is illegal to sell one cigarette or 20, packaged or unpackaged, to children. As the Bill attempts to protect children and young people under the age of 16 from tobacco, and as it is an offence to sell one cigarette to a child under the age of 16, why do we need the provision? That was the point from which I started, but, on reflection, I concede that good arguments have been advanced on the other side.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks) said, the debate in Committee was finely balanced. Just about every member of the Committee spoke and we all cast our votes, with an equal number on each side of the argument. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for
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  Bedfordshire, North will understand if I say that, now that we have had a second opportunity to consider the matter, I am prepared not to stand in the way of the clause.
  The hon. Member for Eccles (Miss Lestor) made a good point, which I had not considered before. In Committee, I made great play of the need to ensure that retailers were protected when they innocently broke the law. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North and I were anxious to emphasise that it is sometimes difficult for retailers to know whether they are selling to a 17-year-old or to a 15-year-old.
  Mr. Alan Williams: I respect the integrity of the hon. Gentleman's argument, which fits in very well with the point that he made earlier—against the rest of us. He said that many of the £90 million-worth of tobacco goods allegedly sold to young people were initially sold to youngsters over the age of 16. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will accept that people in that age group are the most likely to try to buy single cigarettes. In other words, the hon. Gentleman has met the objection that he voiced in his first speech by his change of heart in his second.
  Mr. Brown: I try to be consistent, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. If my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North withdrew the amendment, he would be conceding the point in favour of the arguments that he and I advanced in Committee. Bearing in mind the wishes of Ministers at the Department of Health, whom my hon. Friend the Minister has consulted, and the fact that, as my hon. Friend said, there is nothing wrong in the House indulging itself occasionally on such an important subject, I am prepared to withdraw my opposition to the clause.
  I have one technical reservation. Clause 3(1) states:
  "It shall be an offence for any person carrying on a retail business to sell cigarettes to any person other than in pre-packed quantities of 10".
  Those who travel on British Airways flights in the smoking section may be invited to partake of a cigarette after a meal or, on request, of a packet of cigarettes sold under the brand names of Rothmans, Benson and Hedges and so on. Such cigarettes are given, not sold. I have seen cellophane-wrapped packets of cigarettes on such British Airways flights, and I presume that they are also available in hospitality. Will that still be permitted? Will it be possible to give or provide cellophane-wrapped packets of five cigarettes in this way? Will it still be legal, on the ground that they are not being sold? If my hon. Friend the Minister cannot answer that now, perhaps someone from his Department or the Department of Health will write to me with an answer.
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) for following me on my pilgrimage to the point at which I support the retention of this clause—that is the right conclusion, and the legislation will be the more effective for it. I think that I can satisfy him on the question that he asked. If cigarettes in packets of five, or in singles, are given away in this country in the circumstances that he describes, they will not be affected by this legislation, because we are talking about selling. If an airliner has taken off and is elsewhere, of course our law may not apply—but I should have to take further advice on that—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I thought that the Minister was intervening—
  Mr. Michael Brown: I had finished.
  Mr. Lloyd: I was also grateful for the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks). He has been utterly consistent: he took the same view in Committee as he has expressed today.
  I realised once I had sat down earlier that I had not mentioned amendment No. 4. I hope that the House will find it useful if I say a little about it. Clause 3(3) was inserted in the Bill as a result of an amendment moved by the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) in a helpful effort to ensure that retailers and hotel and restaurant owners could continue to sell cigars singly to adults. I assure the hon. Gentleman that, by tabling this amendment, the Government do not seek in any way to reverse what he has done or to prohibit the sale of single cigars to adults. The Government remain fully of the view that retailers and others should remain free to sell cigars in packets of fewer than 10.
  I did say in Standing Committee, however, that the courts may have difficulty with the wording of this subsection even if we attempted to define cigars and cigarettes. The simplest way of avoiding confusion and removing any possible doubt would be to. delete it. By attempting to exclude one tobacco product—cigars—from the meaning of cigarettes in this subsection we leave more open to doubt and confusion, the issue of whether other tobacco products—cigarillos, cheroots and panatellas—are included or excluded.
  What we want to achieve is a ban on the sale of unpackaged cigarettes but not other tobacco products—certainly not the ones that I have just mentioned. By deleting the subsection, we would be left with the ordinary meaning of cigarettes, which does not, in the Government's view, include what would ordinarily be described as cigars, cigarillos, cheroots and panatellas.
  This is a small amendment, but it may be significant in some situations. We all know what we mean by cigarettes, and I believe that the courts will have no difficulty in construing the word in the same way. Attempts to define what is or is not a cigarette or cigar would serve only to confuse and lead to uncertainty, which in turn can lead to bad law and unwanted decisions. I recommend deleting the subsection from the Bill.
  11.45 am
  Sir Trevor Skeet: I am obliged to the Minister, who has mentioned two points that will lead to great difficulty in future. Gift packets can be handed out to all sorts of people over the counters in shops, too. I hope that my hon. Friend will thoroughly review that matter, because I am sincerely interested in the future of children and I do not want the Act abused.
  Fortunately, it will not be the Minister or indeed anyone from the legislative system who will hand out the scale 3 penalties—they will be for the courts to decide. How the penalties are administered will be complicated, but the courts may find it less so after the guidance that the Minister has given today.
  I am very glad to learn that article 30 of the Rome treaties will not be infringed, because this matter will not
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  constitute a restraint on trade. That was one of my primary concerns, and on that basis I am quite prepared to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendments made: No. 3, in page 2, line 26 at end insert—
  '(1A) Any person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.'.
  No. 4, in page 2, line 30 leave out subsection (3).—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]

Clause 4

  ENFORCEMENT ACTION BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES IN ENGLAND AND WALES
  Amendments made: No. 5, in page 2, line 35 leave out
  'in relation to offences under'
  and insert 'relating to'.
  No. 6, in page 2, line 37 leave out `("the principal section")' and insert
  `and sections 3 and 5 above'.
  No. 7, in page 2, line 41 leave out
  'this section "programme of enforcement action" means'
  and insert
  'subsection (1)(a) above the reference to a programme of enforcement action relating to the provisions there mentioned is a referenced to'.
  No. 8, in page 2, line 43 leave out 'the principal section' and insert 'those provisions'.
  No. 9, in page 3, line 2 leave out 'that section' and insert `those provisions'.
  No. 10, in page 3, line 4 leave out 'that section' and insert 'those provisions'.
  No. 11, in page 3, line 4 at end insert—
  '(d) the making of complaints under section 7(2) of the Act of 1933 and, with a view to determining whether such complaints should be made, the monitoring of the use of such machines for the sale of tobacco as are mentioned in that provision.'.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]

Clause 6

  ADVERTISEMENTS
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: I beg to move amendment No. 13, in page 4, line 26, leave out clause 6.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 14 and 15.
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: I know that many hon. Members have been very unhappy about the extent and visibility of advertising for cigarettes on the front of shops. Their concern was made abundantly clear in Committee. I also recall that I made it very clear that I believe that the right way to control tobacco advertising and promotion is through further development of the successful system of voluntary agreements. Although complex, the system is comprehensive in its coverage and has always been honoured by the industry.
  I am therefore extremely pleased to remind the House that a new voluntary agreement on advertising between the Government and the tobacco industry has been agreed in principle and should shortly be concluded. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health announced yesterday, the agreement will contain two key measures

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  designed to reduce the visibility of shopfront advertising and to ensure that all such advertising carries appropriate health warnings.
  First, the industry has made a major commitment to reducing the amount of shopfront advertising. It has undertaken to reduce the total number of external permanent advertising materials at retail premises by 50 per cent. over five years. Those reductions will be validated by independent audit and the results of the audit will be presented to the monitoring committee and will appear in its annual report. In making that reduction, the industry will seek to ensure that it is applied evenly over time by type of sign and by geographical location. Priority will be given to removing signs that are clearly visible from schools. The programme will be carried out in consultation with the retail trade.
  Secondly, the industry has agreed to ensure that all existing signs that do not yet carry health warnings shall do so by the end of June. Under the current agreement, signs erected before 1983 did not have to carry a health warning. That provision naturally caused some confusion to the public and, not surprisingly, has been the subject of a number of complaints to the monitoring committee. This programme of action by the industry represents a major step forward in the control of shopfront advertising. It will involve the industry in considerable expense and loss of advertising space and that shows its readiness to make the voluntary system effective. It demonstrates that very real and rapid progress can be made through the voluntary system without recourse to legislation.
  In addition to tackling the system of shopfront advertising, the new voluntary agreement will address a number of other areas of recent concern. For example, it will extend the present ban on poster advertising that is visible from schools to cover hoardings that are visible from children's playgrounds. Furthermore, as the House may already be aware, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health this week appointed Sir John Blelloch as the new chairman of the monitoring committee. I am sure that he will carry out that role with the same impartiality and vigour as did the previous chairman, Sir Peter Lazarus.
  I hope that the House will accept this clear evidence that the voluntary system is continuing to work effectively. Since 1971 successive Governments have concluded voluntary agreements with the tobacco industry to control advertising and other aspects of its operations. This Government have extended and enhanced the system of agreements to provide an unprecedented level of protection to both smokers and non-smokers. The current agreement, concluded in 1986, represented a major step forward. It cut by half the amount that could be spent on poster advertising, abolished advertising in cinemas and ended the advertising of high-tar cigarettes. It also banned advertising in a range of magazines aimed at young women and banned poster advertising outside schools. It enhanced the long-standing requirements for the provision of health warnings and maintained the comprehensive controls on the content of advertising—something which cannot be done as effectively by legislation which is inevitably inflexible.
  The 1986 agreement created the joint monitoring committee of which Sir John Blelloch has just been
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  appointed chairman. The committee consists of representatives of the Government and of industry. It receives and investigates complaints on alleged breaches of the agreement and, where necessary, it seeks to rectify matters. It also commissions independent research into how aspects of the agreements are working. A separate agreement, concluded in 1987, controls expenditure by tobacco companies on sports sponsorship and regulates the content of promotional material for sporting events.
  A third agreement, on product modification, has resulted in a significant reduction in the average tar yield of cigarettes. The Independent Scientific Committee on Smoking and Health reported that, together with the reduction in the number of people who smoke, the product modification agreement has contributed to a fall in smoking-related diseases.
  The system of voluntary agreements has made a major contribution to public health in the past 20 years. The progress made through the voluntary system will now be consolidated with a further significant advance in the level of control over tobacco advertising. This development demonstrates just how flexible, responsive and comprehensive the voluntary system can be. Legislation, by contrast, is cumbersome and slow, and cannot respond quickly to new threats to public health or to anomalies in the existing system. Clause 6 is limited to one type of advertising and might well have proved difficult for the courts to interpret. Any anomalies or problems in the operation of the clause could have been corrected only by amendment to legislation. That is not so with a voluntary agreement which can be applied flexibly and effectively.
  I hope that the House will join me in congratulating my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health on his success in extending and maintaining the voluntary agreement on tobacco advertising. I also hope that it will acknowledge the readiness of the trade to agree to this more demanding arrangement. I know that the hon. Member for Warley, East has been sceptical about how much can be achieved by negotiation, but I hope that he is convinced by what I have been able to report that it would be in the interests of the public and particularly children to give the new voluntary agreement time to show itself effective. I hope that he, too, will support amendment No. 13.
  If clause 6 is removed from the Bill, we shall need to consider the relevance of clause 7. The terms "local authority" and "premises" are defined elsewhere in the Bill. The definitions of "advertisement" and "tobacco sponsored event" relate only to a clause which I hope the House will agree to remove. Finally, "tobacco" is defined in clause 5 for the purpose of that clause. We are left, therefore, with a redundant clause, and we should remove it from the Bill. If the House agrees to accept amendment No. 13, I hope that it will agree also to amendment No. 14.
  Amendment No. 16 is consequential and tidies up the title. It will be needed if the House decides to adopt amendment No. 13, which would remove clause 6.
  Mr. Faulds: My Bill included a clause on shopfront advertising because this forms an ever-expanding message route to children, and one not blocked by the voluntary agreement which stops other tobacco advertising near schools. The clause sought to prohibit the advertising of tobacco brands or tobacco-sponsored events from retail premises.

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  As the House will know, the industry has been widely criticised for pretending to publish warnings about the illegality of selling cigarettes to children, while in fact providing a pathetically small notice—it appears in some shops and not others—that is dwarfed by the point-of-sale promotional graphics surrounding it. Such displays in favour of tobacco are plastered over the shops seen and used every day by children.
  Throughout the discussions which I have had on the Bill with Ministers, it has been made clear that the Government opposed this provision on shopfront advertising because they preferred voluntary rather than regulatory control of tobacco advertising. I was, however, not prepared to delete the clause at the earlier stages of the Bill's passage through Parliament since I hoped that the debate on it might provoke both Government and industry into further consideration of the impact of shopfront tobacco advertising near schools. That, of course, is what has developed.
  The clause won support in Committee, and the discussion there highlighted the problem most graphically. Not only did hon. Members of all parties speak strongly in favour of controls on shopfront advertising, but the Committee was shown photographs of shopfronts covered in tobacco advertising, some of it using cartoon-type characters very likely to appeal to children.
  I am pleased that hon. Members' strong support for this element of the Bill has indeed produced some positive result, in the form of the negotiations that have taken place between Government and industry on expanding the voluntary code in relation to shopfront advertising, the outcome of which was announced yesterday, and on which the Minister has enlarged today. I must say that I think I personally owe him a considerable debt of gratitude. He has played a role—I am sure that this is the case with his colleagues in the Department of Health—in talking some sense into the tobacco industry in terms of the expansion of the voluntary agreement. I am most grateful to him for his efforts and his success.
  In the light of this and of other concessions to my point of view made by the Minister, and for the sake of the Bill as a whole, I am prepared to let the clause drop. I look forward, however, to a really positive change in practice by the tobacco industry. I know that many individuals and national organisations, particularly PAT, will be monitoring the situation closely.
  The Bill that I introduced was originally drafted by PAT. It came to the House with the support of a wide range of organisations and concerned parents throughout Britain. It tackles what it is fair to describe as an evil—the cynical breaking of the law in order not only to profit from children who smoke, but to encourage them to smoke. It also came with all-party support.
  12 noon
  The Bill has been carefully considered in Committee and concessions have been made on all sides. In some areas the Bill has been strengthened, and in others we have made compromises to temper it and so achieve maximum consensus. I have no doubt that it has returned to the House in a form that will encourage parents to accept that their children will be far better protected from tobacco in future. It is now in a form which should discourage offenders and ultimately lead to more and tougher action.
  We all know that taking measures to reduce the sale of cigarettes to children will not, in themselves, stop children
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  smoking. We know—this argument has been made a number of times today—that schools, parents and others, as well as the industry, have a responsibility to contribute. The Bill is based on the premise that all attempts to discourage children from smoking will not succeed while it is easy for them to purchase cigarettes and while it is easy for people to break the law and sell cigarettes to children. The Bill is a major advance on the unhappy and unsatisfactory status quo. I commend it to the House.
  Mr. Sims: As a sponsor of the Bill, I am happy to agree with the proposal of the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) that the two clauses be dropped. I do so for the reasons that he gave, although not with any great enthusiasm. I am prepared to give at least a tepid welcome to the terms of the agreement announced yesterday, on the "half a loaf" argument, although many of us would have preferred proposals along these lines.
  I have noted the Minister's advocacy of voluntary agreements. I should be more persuaded if I felt that they would be adhered to. We have no great faith in voluntary agreements which, over the years, have been steadily broken both in the spirit and in the letter. It was part of a previous agreement that there should be no poster advertising near schools, for reasons that are self-evident and consistent with the themes that we are discussing today.
  However, we know that, apart from instances where that was not complied with and poster advertisements were put up close to schools, there was an almost immediate and noticeable increase in shopfront advertising—not least, advertising on shopfronts adjacent to schools, children's playgrounds and so on—in exactly the way that the hon. Member for Warley, East described. Surely that cannot have been other than contrary to the spirit of the agreement.
  Hon. Members may be aware of the survey carried out in Hackney, which commented:
  "The 1986 Voluntary Agreement is being infringed daily in the London Borough of Hackney".
  The evidence upon which the report was based was not difficult to accumulate. The report cited four ways in which the code had been directly broken, and one in which the spirit of the agreement had been infringed. There was also a most interesting study of the position in Edinburgh, published in 1989 in Health Education Research. It commented on the limited remit of the voluntary agreement, which did not restrict children's exposure to shopfront advertising.
  There is another area that is outside the scope of the Bill. I am bound to express my concern, and that of many in the field, at the way in which the spirit of the voluntary agreements are circumvented by the extent to which tobacco companies not only sponsor a whole range of events but especially sporting events, with the implied connection between the sponsor and good health, which is of course the reverse of the truth. There are also indirect forms of advertising—for example, the way in which the companies promote holidays and a variety of activities not directly connected with tobacco products but which nevertheless promote their products.
  I am pleased to see two of the provisions, to which my hon. Friend the Minister referred, within the new agreement. First, priority will be given to reducing the number of permanent advertising signs on shops that are clearly visible from schools. Again, I hope that the spirit as

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  well as the letter of that agreement will be adhered to, because a shopfront, although not clearly visible from a school, may be just around the corner where children will pass it daily. Surely that should be included.
  I am especially glad that, from 1 July, all external signs on shops will carry a health warning. It has always seemed to me to be an extraordinary anomaly that other forms of advertising were required to carry a health warning, yet enormous advertisements outside shops did not. This voluntary agreement is a step in the right direction, and we shall watch carefully how it is implemented, both in its spirit and its letter.
  Rev. Martin Smyth: Speaking of health warnings, does the hon. Gentleman accept that they ought to be more conspicuous than they normally are? Secondly, is not it an anomaly that we are concerned that drugs are taken to enhance sporting performance, but that we do not seem to be unduly concerned about a drug that is one of the greatest dangers to health?
  Mr. Sims: I agree completely on the hon. Gentleman's second point. As regards the first, as far as I know, the size of warnings on advertisements is not covered in the voluntary agreement, although, interestingly, the size and placing of warnings on cigarette packets is now covered by the European Community directives, which leads me to observe that this may be the last voluntary agreement. Many of us hope so. A number of European countries have a complete ban on such advertising, and EC directives to extend that ban throughout the Community are under discussion. One hopes that those discussions will come to fruition and that the original intentions of this clause, which we are now revoking, will come to pass.
  Mr. Michael Brown: I would have spoken at some length on this amendment, had it not been for the speech by the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), the sponsor of the Bill. I was concerned about the inclusion of this clause and I now know the reasons why the hon. Gentleman pursued the matter in Committee. The subject cropped up in Committee and I think that it was the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) who was concerned that the voluntary agreement had not been renewed. There was some controversy and concern, which I suspect was behind the inclusion of this clause in the Bill, that the new voluntary agreement was not even available in draft form, so I understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety to include clause 6 in the Bill.
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be encouraged, as I was, by what the Minister said. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims), I have always supported the idea of voluntary agreements. I thought that he was being a little churlish about the tobacco industry when he said that it did not adhere to the spirit of the voluntary agreements. It has a vested interest in ensuring that such voluntary agreements work. As he rightly pointed out, the tobacco industry knows that there is pressure from the European Commission.
  Let me remind my hon. Friend of the latest developments. Just before Christmas, when the Bill had been presented but not debated, the European Commission sought to introduce a directive controlling the advertising of tobacco. We debated that directive shortly before the Christmas recess. It was not accepted by
  710
  the Council of Ministers when it met at the beginning of December, but the European Community may well return to the matter, and the European Commission may introduce another directive for the Council's consideration.
  If I am to persuade Ministers that such a directive is not needed, it is important for me to be able to demonstrate, with my colleagues who believe in the voluntary agreements, that their spirit is being adhered to. The tobacco industry is concerned, as I am, about what may come from the European Community, so it is in its own interest to ensure that the voluntary agreement between it and the Government that is about to be signed is delivered. I hope that that will reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst and the hon. Member for Warley, East.
  Since then, matters have moved on, and the voluntary agreement is due to be renewed in draft. I am content for the clause to be deleted.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: My hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims) said that he hoped that Europe would move towards banning tobacco advertisements. I am sure that the Commission will take into account what has happened over the years. In the past 20 years, smoking in the United Kingdom has gone down by 30 per cent., in the United States by 20 per cent. and in the Netherlands by 40 per cent., but all those countries permit advertising.
  However, smoking has increased in some Community countries: for instance, in Portugal and Italy it has gone up by 8 per cent. In Norway, it has dropped by 5 per cent. It may console the hon. Member for Warley, East to know that he is not sacrificing much. He is wise to delete clause 6. By doing so, he has eliminated much of the argument that we would have adduced if we had to fight the matter. I think that it is probably right to rest on voluntary arrangements.
  Mr. Sims: Is my hon. Friend aware of a survey carried out in New Zealand? It showed that, in 18 countries where advertising was banned, the extent of children's smoking was reduced. That is what we are concerned about.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: I am glad that my hon. Friend has referred to my old country, New Zealand. Some extraordinary things are going on there. Sponsored events will be phased out by 1993, but will be replaced by a Government-funded health sponsorship council. That would be a heavy charge on public funds, whereas the cost of the voluntary agreement is carried entirely by the tobacco industry. I should have thought that a voluntary arrangement would be much better than legislation.
  12.15 pm
  Mr. Alan Williams: I am at a disadvantage that other hon. Members might not experience. I have not seen the voluntary agreement and do not know what it contains. Does the hon. Gentleman know the terms of the voluntary agreement? If we do not know what they are, how do we know whether we are getting a good or a bad deal?
  Mr. Peter Lloyd rose—
  Sir Trevor Skeet: The Minister will be summing up—
  Mr. Lloyd: I allowed my hon. Friend to get up again so that I could properly intervene during his reply. As the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend know, this is a matter for the Secretary of State for Health, not for me. I

  711
  understand that the agreement is nearing completion and that it covers a wider range of topics than those to which I referred earlier.
  The Secretary of State wanted to make available for the debate information concerning points upon which agreement had been reached in principle that he thought would be of interest to us. We shall have to wait for a few weeks before the full agreement is published. It will deal with the topics to which I referred earlier.
  Mr. Alan Williams: I cannot intervene on an intervention.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: No. It is, perhaps, just that I should continue to bat for a few more minutes.
  According to The Sunday Telegraph of 2 December 1990, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Dorrell), said that the two countries that had achieved the 'biggest reduction in cigarette consumption were Britain and Holland, which had voluntary agreements. He went on:
  "Not one of the countries which had imposed or proposed a ban on advertising had recorded a fall."
  That is a good commendation of voluntary agreements. They are very successful. Voluntary agreements can be altered periodically. The subject is normally discussed just before a Budget. Legislation is much more formal; it does not have the flexibility of voluntary agreements. Therefore, I recommend their continuance.
  It may console the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) to know that the National Federation of Self-Employed and Small Businesses says that it fears clause 6, since the estimated cost of replacing shopfronts ranges from £200 for a simple notice to £1,000 for a full display. That could prove to be extremely expensive for people who are going through difficult times.
  The National Federation of Retail Newsagents represents about 32,000 independent retail newsagents. It represents only small businesses—the shop round the corner. The federation is doing its utmost to ensure that the people who run these shops act responsibly. It says:
  "As recently as last October this Federation provided a distinctive window display poster to each of its 32,000 members with the wording: 'Your Newsagent Cares—Tobacco goods will not be sold to persons under sixteen years of age from these premises.'"
  That is a step in the right direction and the best way to go about it.
  If arrangements can be reached with the companies concerned—they are participating by trying to enforce them through their agencies—the Bill is far more likely to work. I pay tribute to the work done by the hon. Member for Warley, East. The Bill may not now be in the form in which he introduced it, but it will now be effective, since in due course it will be administered by the Government and the judiciary.
  Mr. Knowles: I join my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) in congratulating the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds). For a Back Bencher to get a Bill on the statute book is a considerable undertaking at any time, but to manage it on a subject which can be deeply divisive and to get the Committee to pull together has been no mean achievement.
  I should also like to offer him an apology. I mentioned earlier the libertarian and anti-libertarian arguments, and he presumed, because he had sponsored the Bill, that I was including him in those comments. I can think of few
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  Members who are less likely to support anti-libertarian measures. I would have had more doubts about other members of the Committee, but on such issues one normally knows exactly where the hon. Member for Warley, East stands.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. To put the matter beyond any doubt, I should make it clear that we are not yet on Third Reading. We are debating a particular amendment.
  Mr. Knowles: I should also like to comment on the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims) about sponsorship. He seemed to take particular exception to the tobacco industry sponsoring sporting events. The industry sponsors two categories of event; sporting events and cultural activities such as concerts. In many such cases, the costs are high, and one cannot charge the economic price; so such events need sponsorship. If one unilaterally chopped out sponsorship from the tobacco industry—and there is a lot of it—that would mean the end of many sporting and cultural activities. One would have to bear in mind that that would be the net effect. My hon. Friend might consider that it would still be worth doing, but I would disagree.
  I am certainly happy about the removal of clause 6. The effect on small retailers would have been devastating. We have to be careful: when one seeks to achieve an end by imposing restrictions, if they do not work there is a tendency to impose totally draconian measures without returning to first base. That can be a danger. A few years ago, the Surgeon General of the United States said that passive smoking caused 2,000 deaths a year in the United States. His evidence was challenged and he had to withdraw that statement, yet one still sees that quoted as his opinion.
  The difficulty is that, all too often, people start off from a set position and they do not look at the evidence purely on the facts before them. Their minds are already made up. It reminds me of the old joke about the drunk using the lamp post more for support than illumination; that all too often tends to happen in matters such as we are discussing today.
  Mr. Michael Brown: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Another example from America supports what he is saying. In the 1950s and 1960s, they wanted to put fluoride in the public water supply. In the 1970s and 1980s, evidence was adduced that persuaded more and more authorities that that was wrong. There is often a time lag before one gets the medical evidence that sometimes upsets the established wisdom of earlier decades.
  Mr. Knowles: My hon. Friend is correct. We can recall the alleged health effects of various products. One year, fats are good for you; the next year, they are bad for you. One year salt is good for you; and then it is bad for you. If one wrote all those theories into law, we would be chopping and changing the law even more than we do already.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst spoke about advertising. Again, it is hard to reach a conclusion. In Italy, where tobacco advertising has been banned since 1962, smoking has risen dramatically. The same is true of Portugal. Evidence shows that if one starts from a pre-set position, one can always find evidence to support one's point of view. That is the difficulty.
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: If such a ban on advertising were to be introduced, would the hon. Gentleman, as a self-confessed heavy smoker, feel such deprivation?
  Mr. Knowles: The answer is both yes and no—yes, in that I am a long-term smoker. I know the brand I like and I am unlikely to change. So I would not necessarily miss the advertising, because my mind is made up about brand loyalty. However, I should object on principle that I could not discover other brands. I am loyal to a particular make of car, but that does not mean that I do not want to consider advertisements for other cars.
  The same argument applies—it is the basic libertarian argument about deprivation of information for what is seen as the greater good. My worry is that we start selling principles for what seem good reasons, but then there is no stopping. If an argument applies to one issue, it must apply to another, and so it continues down the line.
  I have already said that I am suspicious of anti-libertarian arguments. As one would expect, I could not put it in better terms than those used by Macauley. He said that the Puritans banned bear-baiting
  "not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators."
  Mr. Peter Bottomley: I find that last sentence by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) difficult to follow. Some of my hon. Friend's earlier remarks were more interesting.
  One of the reasons why there is less smoking in this country and a faster reduction in smoking than in many others is because two remarkable medical statisticians in 1953 first discerned that it was highly likely that smoking tobacco was harmful to health. The two doctors continued in other areas—they did the work on radon and established an epidemiology of illness and diseases. Because of their discoveries, the medical profession in Britain took up the tobacco issue. We should pay tribute to Dr. Charles Fletcher, who was one of those who did much to raise public awareness.
  We are discussing the dropping of clause 6. I shall tie my remarks to the voluntary agreement and its substitution for the use of the law. It is necessary to remind ourselves of the difference between smoking and alcohol. There is room for voluntary agreement on both those issues. Alcohol is not necessarily damaging, although it is if used in excess. It is also associated with other illnesses. One in 10 people is an alcoholic and many people have diseases or conditions which make alcohol harmful— pregnancy is one such condition.
  There is no argument at all for tobacco, although one must be tolerant of those who still use it. I shall not talk too much about it, because I should confuse Auberon Waugh if I talked about tobacco as well as alcohol. I was able to stop smoking because I realised that I was addicted. We cannot expect all adults to be able to do that easily. Kipling told us of those who give up smoking easily as they do it often enough. There is agreement that we should try to stop succeeding generations of people from picking up an avoidable habit.
  Most public service is about trying to promote well-being. That may involve welfare or material resources, but together they promote well-being, which is what brings most of us into Parliament. It may also take
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  us into the civil service and public services, such as health and education, and into advertising or other private sector occupations.
  One aspect of promoting well-being is to get rid of the unnecessary distress, disadvantage and handicap which results from young people doing what so many of us did when we were their age, which is to pick up smoking in a fairly casual way, because it is forbidden, because friends do it or because of boredom.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must say once again that we are not on Third Reading; nor are we on Second Reading. I am waiting for the hon. Member to address himself to the amendment.
  Mr. Bottomley: One of the disadvantages of being at the far end of the Chamber is that I may not have said loudly enough that I was referring directly to whether clause 6 should be dropped and to the effect of the voluntary agreement on young people.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Despite what the hon. Member says, I am still waiting for his words to reflect what is in the amendment.
  12.30 pm
  Mr. Bottomley: I hope that my speech will not contain too many paragraphs that link in to my first thought, but I must not transgress your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or be tempted into making a longer speech than I choose to make.
  The issue is whether the voluntary agreement will be a sufficient substitute for clause 6. The worst type of advertising that children see is the example of their parents smoking. Any parent who wants children not to start the habit should consider smoking only when or where the children are not present.
  Children go, with or without their parents, into confectioners' shops and local newsagents' shops. The diversion of tobacco companies' funds to small retailers has made a big difference to the impact on young people. One cannot ban young people from smoking. If one tried to ban, it would provide a challenge. Most of us can overcome such a challenge and do whatever has been forbidden. Clause 6 matters, because we need an environment in which, although not involved themselves, people understand why they should have sympathy for those adults who still need to buy tobacco.
  Dr. Godman: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that advertising gives young people in particular the idea that this addiction has a spurious legitimacy? Advertising provides youngsters with the rationalisation that smoking cigarettes is acceptable.
  Mr. Bottomley: There is a slight twist. We should praise confectioners, newsagents and small retailers. They have been co-operating more and more openly in not selling cigarettes to young people. I draw an analogy with the anti-drink driving campaign. Young people who were twice as bad as their fathers became only half as bad, having quickly changed their habits. That happened because of signs in pubs and clubs stating that low-alcohol and alcohol-free drinks were available. The places where people obtained drink were made allies, letting people achieve what they wanted to achieve.
  I hope that the voluntary agreement works. My hon. Friend the Minister announced that Sir John Blelloch

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  would be the chairman of the monitoring committee, and we send our best wishes to him. Does the voluntary agreement apply in Northern Ireland? If my hon. Friend the Minister cannot answer immediately, perhaps he will make the matter plain later. The Bill should be followed by Northern Ireland legislation as soon as possible.
  We are not concerned in clause 6 or in the Bill as a whole with the libertarian versus anti-libertarian argument. We are concerned with how to create conditions whereby fewer young people in succeeding generations pick up the smoking habit. All the arguments are against picking up the habit. I ask people to find ways of monitoring each cohort so that information is published as regularly as the children's pocket money surveys, once or twice a year.
  We should start publicising the fact that things are getting better. There is a market in information. Peer group pressure should be reinforced, so that, no matter whether a young person is mighty or lowly, rich or poor, black or white, from the country or from the town, they look forward to the year 2000 and beyond, powerful enough within themselves not to pick up the smoking habit and to set an example to their parents, just as many young people do in other respects.
  Mr. Robert Banks: I warmly welcome the removal of the clause and the introduction of the voluntary agreement. I had grave reservations about the clause, because it would have forced shopkeepers throughout the country to remove their canopies and other fascias, causing a colossal upheaval, not to mention a great deal of expense and work. It would have been a drastic and unfair measure, and I welcome the fact that the voluntary agreement will avoid it.
  When tobacco companies display cigarette brand names on the fascias or blinds of shops, they are merely competing for a market share. The sight of a brand name such as Marlboro displayed on a shop would cause few children to rush off and to buy that brand. Such advertising does not encourage children to smoke but draws to the attention of those who already smoke the name of a particular brand of cigarettes, and creates an image. There is a danger that the image created by tobacco companies promotes the concept of smoking. I welcome the fact that the voluntary agreement stipulates that advertisements should not be displayed in the immediate vicinity of schools, because such image-making advertisements can put people into the mood to smoke.
  My hon. Friend's measure should also be welcomed by shopkeepers and retailers, as it will save them from a measure that would have caused them huge problems.
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: My hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims) said that voluntary agreements were often not kept. However, my information shows that they have been well observed across the board. I make a point of saying so not merely to place on record what I believe are the facts but because it is important that breaches of the code are reported to the monitoring committee, which exists to investigate complaints and should be used for that purpose.
  My hon. Friend said that, under a previous voluntary agreement, it was agreed that hoarding near schools should not be used for cigarette advertising but that shop windows in the same neighbourhood seemed to display even more such advertisements. If that is so, the part of the
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  voluntary agreement relating to hoardings was certainly being observed. My hon. Friend said that the spirit of the agreement was not being fully observed. That is not a strong argument for anyone who hankers after a legislative approach. It argues for an extension of the voluntary agreement to cover shopfronts as well, which the new voluntary agreement does.
  I am grateful for the support of my hon. Friends who have spoken in favour of the voluntary agreement approach. My hon. Friends the Members for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) and for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) showed how far from simple such matters were, and made the interesting point that smoking had declined more slowly in EC countries that had banned advertising than in those that had not.
  People who believe that advertising is effective should consider whether the more powerful message for many people who see cigarette advertising is contained in the health warning it carries, not the advert itself. Without trying to predict what conclusion such consideration would lead to, I say yet again that the voluntary agreement insists—this will satisfy those who believe that advertising for cigarettes is powerful, but advertising that carries a health warning is also effective—that all shopfronts mentioning cigarettes should provide a health warning. The voluntary agreement that came into effect in 1986 carried that requirement only for new advertising added to shopfronts, and advertisements placed before 1983 did not require health warnings. That has all changed, and all advertising on shopfronts must, in future, carry a health warning.
  Mr. Alan Williams: If I have followed the logic of the Minister's argument correctly, he is saying that companies have been profligate with shareholders' money because they are wasting it on advertising which damages sales rather than helping them. I should have thought that the only reason companies spend enormous sums of advertising is because their market research shows clearly that the advertising shows a good return.
  Mr. Lloyd: I am trying to make two points. The first is the effect of advertising and the effectiveness of the health warning in bringing to the public's attention the health hazards of smoking are complex matters. Secondly, however one judges advertising or the value of the health warning, the warning must be present on all shopfronts where cigarettes are mentioned. I should have thought that the House would agree that that was a welcome development.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) asked whether the voluntary agreement applied in Northern Ireland. I am glad to say that it does.
  I thank the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) for his kind remarks and for his readiness to consider clause 6 and accept the Government's advice that it should be removed from the Bill. I know that he was extremely concerned that, at that time, there seemed to be no prospect of an agreement with the trade on a renewal of tighter arrangements on cigarette advertising. As I said in Committee, I believed that discussions would produce a satisfactory result, and considered that to be the way forward. I am glad that sufficient progress has been made for at least some of that development to be revealed today, to give the hon. Member for Warley, East the assurance that he wanted and that it was right for him to want.
  Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7
  MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS
  Amendment made: No. 14, in page 4, line 42, leave out Clause 7.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]

  Title
  Amendments made: No. 16, in line 4, leave out from `1937;' to first `to' in line 7.
  No. 15, in line 7, leave out from 'cigarettes;' to `to' in line 9.
  No. 17, in line 10, after `machines;', insert
  `to make provision with respect to enforcement action by local authorities relating to offences connected with the sale of tobacco and to other matters;'.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.—[Mr. Faulds.]
  12.44 pm
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: We have come a long way since Second Reading on 18 January. The Standing Committee met four times to consider the Bill in detail. During those lengthy sittings, it debated many amendments tabled by the Government and by the Bill's promoter, the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds).
  The amendments sought to improve the effectiveness of the Bill. A number, however, did not meet with the Committee's approval and we had to start again. Initially, therefore, progress was slow, but the debates and disagreements were always lively, amicable and constructive. I particularly thank the hon. Member for Warley, East for that, and other members of the Committee.
  There was regular, constructive dialogue outside the Committee between myself, officials, the Bill's sponsors and Parents Against Tobacco. I admired the patient, persistent and effective advocacy of Parents Against Tobacco. The Bill was much improved in Committee.
  The Bill has not been easy to handle as it encroaches on the territory of the Departments of Health, of Trade and Industry and of the Environment, not to mention the Scottish Office and the Northern Ireland Office. I am grateful for the co-operation of my ministerial colleagues and officials in those Departments.
  The hon. Member for Warley, East has good reason to be proud of the Bill. He stuck to his guns on some matters and was bold enough to have second thoughts on others, all with the noble intention of getting a good and effective Bill on the statute book. I believe that the Bill, if enacted, will long be a tribute to his efforts.
  We are all concerned about the grave dangers of young children starting to smoke. Our health education programmes and initiatives address that serious matter. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) will agree that education is essential. The Bill, however, will offer young children increased protection by toughening the law and by increasing the penalties on retailers who flout it by selling tobacco to children. It will, I believe, be welcomed by parents and by the public in general and, not least—I wish to emphasise this—by the vast majority of law-abiding retailers, who are as dismayed as everyone else at how easy it is for children
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  under 16 to buy cigarettes in some shops. I am sure that the House will want to give the Bill a Third Reading and speed it on the statute book.
  12.47 pm
  Mr. Faulds: I feel it incumbent on me to make one or two comments at the end of the stony road that we have pursued over some months.
  I express enormous gratitude to the Minister, because I thought at the beginning of the journey that he was not sympathetic to the purposes of the Bill. He shortly proved me wrong, because he made immense efforts to achieve a consensus and make the Bill effective. He has had the additional chore of continuous consultations with, I think, five or six Departments, all of which he pursued assiduously, to the point where enactment of the Bill will change the appallingly unsatisfactory non-observance of existing legislation. The Bill will safeguard the interests of children, who suffered under the previous unsatisfactory position. I am most grateful for the Minister's enormous co-operation.
  We have had to yield on one or two points, but, overall, the Bill will enormously increase protection to children. I am most grateful for what the Minister has done and for the enormous help of Parents Against Tobacco with the campaign. I am enormously grateful to the dear Lord for drawing me No. 1 in the ballot.
  12.49 pm
  Mr. Summerson: I welcome the Bill in its present form, although I confess that I suffer from a difference of opinion within myself about smoking. As a libertarian, I believe that it must be left to people to make up their own minds what they do. On the other hand, I feel that smoking is such a disgusting habit that the House is perfectly at liberty to make inroads into the problem from time to time.
  We must bear in mind the fact that if we make something illegal or hard to get hold of, we inevitably make it more attractive. Children's smoking is not a new phenomenon. I am sure that, when most of us were at school, it was not at all unusual for children to go behind the bicycle sheds to indulge in what was then probably one of their favourite habits. I heard of one school that did not have bicycle sheds, where the pupils got together to form a deputation and went to those in authority complaining bitterly that they had nowhere to keep their bicycles. Needless to say, that was not the real object of the exercise.
  I welcome the removal of clause 6, with which I would have had serious difficulties as it would have caused great hardship to many shops and shopkeepers. Many tobacconists also run news rounds and sell confectionery; in the trade, they are known collectively as "news-conf-tob". The "tob" element forms an important part of such retailers' trade, and they would have found it a great handicap if they had had to remove from their premises every reference to tobacco.
  On the subject of smoking generally, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) said, it is difficult for the smoker who is thinking of giving up to admit to himself that he is addicted—that he is using a drug and that it has him by the throat. It must be because of the addiction that so many smokers are so inconsiderate in

  719
  indulging their habit. As I said, I am a libertarian, but I feel that smokers have only themselves to blame if the House introduces legislation to curb their habit.
  I am talking in particular about people who light up in restaurants. What could be more disgusting, when one is trying to enjoy a meal, than finding that someone at the next table is smoking? The smoke has a way of wafting across one's table, and very nasty it is, too. Just the other day it was my second wedding anniversary which, fortunately, I remembered in the nick of time. Having remembered it in the nick of time, I decided that I must do something extra special, not least because, on the occasion of my first wedding anniversary, I had arranged to take my wife to a local government conference in my constituency. Having survived that, I decided that in the second year I should do something a little better, so I took my wife to lunch at the Savoy. I am happy to say that my mother-in-law joined us.
  Mr. John Greenway: I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend in full flight, but I am deeply gratified to learn that the title that he once held—"the most romantic man in the House"—still holds true.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. I am sorry to hear about the discomfort experienced by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson), but I must say that I am finding it a little difficult to relate his experiences to what is in the Bill, and that is what we must discuss on Third Reading.
  Mr. Summerson: Yes, of course, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was going on to say that if smoking has such a bad effect on adults who do not smoke, it has an even worse effect on children. That is particularly true of cigar smoke that happens to drift across my table, if I may finish the story, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Smoking is certainly a disgusting habit and if you will permit me to say so, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am afraid that even some of our colleagues in the House when having supper in the Tea Room—[Interruption.]—but perhaps I have said enough.
  Despite what I said earlier about libertarian principles, it is a fact to which I am sure the whole House subscribes that young people need to be protected. It is entirely justified that the House should interest itself in young people, and particularly in a habit like this which can be so damaging to them. I welcome the Bill.
  2.55 pm
  Rev. Martin Smyth: I welcome the Bill and congratulate the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) on his tenacity in seeing it through. As a son of the manse, he has been taught from his earliest days to tread a lonely road and to stick to his point. I thank the Minister for making it abundantly plain that the new agreement applies also to Northern Ireland, just as the Bill is intended to apply to Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: I am afraid that it does not apply directly to Northern Ireland. That will be done in the usual way by an Order in Council, and we intend to implement one.
  Rev. Martin Smyth: I am glad that that is the intention and that the agreement applies to Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) talked about bear-baiting and quoted Macaulay in that context. Today we welcome this Bill for the pleasure that it will
  720
  bring to genuine tobacconists, to parents and to young people, and for the relief from pain that it will bring to others who will not become addicts.
  Many children are worried about adults. I recently received a letter from a primary school in my constituency which has joined Smokebusters. The libertarians and the tobacco lobby may not be too happy with that word, but those young people argue for better control of advertising and are worried about the spread of the poison that is damaging their parents. My father suffered from the addiction, regularly justifying it on the grounds that, as he said, it cleared his lungs in the morning when he started smoking. I had to tell him that that was because it irritated his chest.
  I hope that the Bill will be another light along the pathway that will lead us to tobacco-free air and the ability to breathe freely.
  12.58 pm
  Miss Lestor: I, too, welcome the Bill and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) on introducing it and on the spirit of co-operation that he and the Government have shown in reaching a consensus on various matters. At the outset, we were all anxious to put a measure on the statute book that would protect children and make it more difficult for them to gain access to tobacco and cigarettes. That we have achieved.
  It is a pity that we cannot continue the air of romance introduced to our proceedings a little earlier, although it is nice to know that we have some romance in the House of Commons. I know that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will pull me up if I continue on those lines, however.
  On a serious note, much has been said about the responsibility of parents. We must also bear it in mind that many parents who are addicted will be grateful to the House for legislation that may help to protect their children from becoming addicted as they did, possibly when children themselves. It is not easy for a parent to tell a child not to do something to which he or she is addicted. So parents may be grateful for a measure that will help to prevent their children from making their mistakes.
  12.59 pm
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I welcome the Bill and congratulate its promoter. I am glad that he stuck to his guns and that by doing so he extracted a concession on the—albeit voluntary—agreement. I am also glad that Northern Ireland will benefit from it. I do not generally welcome Orders in Council for Northern Ireland, but I welcome this one. I trust that the Minister will speed up the legislation so that Northern Ireland will not be left behind. Parents have the first and primary responsibility to ensure that their children are protected from tobacco, but they must be aided and abetted by the state, and the temptation of advertising should not be placed in the way of children. I am glad that the Bill will become law.
  1 pm
  Mr. Maclennan: I add my congratulations as well as those of my hon. Friends, particularly those who represent Scottish constituencies, to the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), who has promoted the Bill with great skill. In parliamentary life there are few opportunities to

  721
  legislate in this manner. In my first Parliament I had the good fortune to be responsible for two successful private Members' Bills, but since then I have not been successful.
  The hon. Member for Warley, East can take great satisfaction from the way in which he has piloted the Bill. The progress of the legislation will be followed with great interest in Scotland to see how it works in practice, because in Scotland prosecutions for breaches of the law are almost unheard of. The legislation will enable us to monitor through the local authorities the steps that are being taken. The legislation will be live and will not just lie on the statute book because it imposes on local authorities obligations to which they will periodically have to return. That will keep in the minds of the authorities and the public the great importance of protecting young people from a habit that is deeply damaging to their health and well-being.
  1.2 pm
  Mr. Michael Brown: When the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) won the ballot and chose this subject for his Bill I was very worried, because the subject arouses great passions in the House and a great deal of potential opposition. He faced the massed ranks of my hon. Friends the Members for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) and for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) and it says much for the hon. Gentleman's tenacity and skill that the Bill has reached its present stage.
  I have never had the good fortune to win the ballot for a private Member's Bill, but I had to pilot a controversial private Bill and know exactly the hazards that one encounters. If those of us who opposed the hon. Gentleman had taken an irresponsible route by using the resources at our disposal and occupying the time of the House we could have ensured that the Bill did not go through. We did not do that, because such a course would have been wholly irresponsible.
  In Committee the hon. Member for Warley, East went to a great deal of trouble to explain to us the intentions of the Bill and he certainly satisfied me about its genuine motives. He may even have on his side the Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco. I should like to quote from that organisation's document called "The right to smoke: a Conservative view" which was written by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), and which sets out the Conservative view about the right to smoke. The document states:
  "Children, on the other hand, are different. The capacity for making an informed choice exists in them only potentially. It becomes actual with time and the gaining of experience. Until then, there is no virtue in treating them as free. Insofar as smoking cigarettes involves very probable dangers to health, they should be kept out of the hands of children. The only room for argument here is over means rather than ends. Control should be enforced ideally by the parents. But if they refuse or are too weak to do this, I see a perfectly legitimate role for the State. The Protection of Children (Tobacco) Act 1986 is only the most recent declaration that this role has been assumed."
  I am sure that my hon. Friend would add the Bill to that list. I hope that the hon. Member for Warley, East will not get cold feet when I tell him that I suspect that he might even have the support of FOREST on the objective which he has set himself.
  Mr. James Arbuthnot: It seems from what has been said so far on Third Reading that there are two special areas of concern. First, there is addiction and, secondly, there is the danger to health that is caused by smoking cigarettes. When either factor is put in conjunction with children, there is even greater concern. It seems, however, that we shall have to think extremely carefully about other activities that are addictive and damaging to health, including, possibly, alcohol and newer developments that have come on to the market such as computer games. That may seem a rather odd conjunction, but we shall have to consider carefully how far the principles that have been raised during consideration of the Bill should be applied to other habits and developments.
  Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend has advanced a valid argument. The hon. Member for Warley, East was sensible enough to recognise that there are those of us who take a certain view on the principle of the right to do something as an adult, but who believe that a line can be legitimately drawn if we are challenged on the freedom of the individual. I do not think that as a result of the passage of the Bill and the discussions that have taken place there has been any disagreement that the line should be drawn at the point where we come to discuss the health and welfare of children. When these matters were discussed in great detail in Committee, we were concerned, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood wrote in his article, with the means rather than the end. There has been some genuine give and take which has been an example of the House and the Committee system operating at their best.
  I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Warley, East on the way in which he has gone about taking the Bill through the House. It is an extremely difficult business to get a Bill through this place, even when there is complete agreement. To have triumphed and secured the passage of a Bill that has aroused fierce passions and controversy, and in part the opposition of my hon. Friends the Members for Bedfordshire, North and for Nottingham, East, as well as my opposition, is a sign of the hon. Gentleman's skill and tenacity. I congratulate him.
  1.7 pm
  Dr. Godman: I offer my compliments and congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds). I think that by way of the Bill he will be seen over the years to have performed a valuable public service on behalf of children throughout the United Kingdom. I was not a member of the Committee that considered the Bill, but I spoke on Second Reading, when I wished my hon. Friend well.
  I speak as someone who first acquired the habit of cigarette smoking at the age of 12 years while on board a trawler fishing off Spitzbergen. I thought that it was manly to smoke. All the other fishermen on the vessel were smokers. By 16, I was on 20 to 30 cigarettes a day. I know how powerful the addiction is. It is not one that I have now, for I gave it up many years ago. I believe that my hon. Friend has performed a valuable service.
  The need for the Bill was brought home to me when I recently spent a few days in Glasgow royal infirmary. I had to undergo abdominal surgery. On the ward there were men who were seriously ill—in three instances, terminally ill—with lung cancer and severe emphysema. When I spoke to the men they all admitted that they had been

  723
  near-lifelong addicts. They bitterly regretted that they had ever taken up cigarette smoking, especially given the heavy addiction from which they suffered.
  I am disappointed that clause 6 was removed from the Bill, but pleased with the insertion of new clause 2, to which the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) referred. It is a useful addition to the Bill, and especially so for my constituency, where far too many people smoke cigarettes. During recent days, head teachers have spoken to me about the Bill, and I am sure that they and others concerned with the health of youngsters welcome it. They will be especially pleased about the addition of new clause 2.
  I shall subject the regional and islands councils to tough-minded scrutiny in the application of the new measure. It is essential that we dissuade our young people from taking up such a noxious habit.
  1.10 pm
  Mr. Peter Bottomley: No newsagent-tobacconist in my constituency has complained about the Bill. That is a tribute to the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), who has not tried to tackle the whole problem of smoking in one go, but has dealt with the new generations of people who need to be saved from a bad habit. The general environment matters and that is why concentrating on obtaining the help of tobacconists has been so important.
  I hope that on public occasions people do not speak as though smoking tobacco is fine. I attended the inaugural lunch in the House of Commons when Action on Smoking and Health was launched. When the loyal toast was given, the royal patron said that it was one occasion when people would not be told that they could smoke. We should move away from the habit at public functions of people being told when they can smoke. They should be told when they cannot. That would apply some social pressure. In the same way, public functions should ensure that alcohol-free drink is available; people should not have to ask for it.
  On the libertarian aspect, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson) on reaching his second wedding anniversary. Having heard of the way in which he celebrated his first, I am surprised that anyone wanted to spend a second with him. Perhaps the only reason why he remembered it in the nick of time was that his wife did not want to remind him. Perhaps she feared that she would again be taken to a local government conference.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  Criminal Procedure (Insanity and Unfitness to Plead) Bill
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  1.12 pm
  Mr. John Greenway: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  I am delighted that this important Bill has made such speedy progress. Before enumerating the amendments involved, I wish to congratulate the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) on the progress of his Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Bill. Had I not been so preoccupied with my own Bill, I might have been prepared to lend him a hand with his. I very much support the Parents Against Tobacco campaign and I am sure that many parents today will be celebrating the passage of the hon. Gentleman's Bill to another place. I hope that it will reach the statute book very soon.
  As I said, I am also delighted that my own important Bill has made such speedy progress. I hope that the House will give it a Third Reading so that it can go to another place, where I hope that it will have as swift and easy a passage as it has enjoyed in this place.
  I wish to place on record my gratitude to all those who have given the Bill their wholehearted support, in particular the sponsors, those hon. Members who were kind enough to attend the Committee stage and also my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims), whom I omitted to include as a supporter, but who nevertheless served on the Committee. I know that he shares my anxieties about these matters.
  I am grateful for the overwhelming support that I have been given by the Law Society, which has sponsored the Bill, and has helped me in what I think that the House will agree is an extremely complex subject. In seeking to ensure that all the relevant issues were brought before the House, I have this morning been reading some of the briefs prepared by the Cardiff Law School, the British Epilepsy Association and various other organisations about matters appertaining to the Bill. The complexity of some of the legal issues surrounding case histories is almost mind-boggling at times. I do not profess to have the knowledge of the law necessary to understand all of the arguments relating to some of those cases. However, in our consideration of the Bill on Second Reading and in Committee—I hope that the same will apply today—we have managed to discuss the issues of importance relating to the Bill, so that those outside the House, who will no doubt seek to interpret our intentions and who will have to work with the Bill for the benefit of those whom it seeks to help, will be clear about our intentions and the areas of concern with which we sought to deal.
  The Bill amends the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964, to provide safeguards for vulnerable people who have been found either unfit to plead in relation to the charge against them or not guilty by reason of insanity. Under the 1964 Act such people have to be detained indefinitely in hospital without trial and regardless of the severity of the alleged offence.
  The provisions will affect a number of people. I have already mentioned the British Epilepsy Association. It might be for the convenience of the House and of the record if we could reflect on how the British Epilepsy Association views current law and how it affects epileptics,

  725
  and to explain why they have been so keen to support this measure, as have a number of organisations, and to support reform of the existing law.
  As a result of the Sullivan case of 1983 an epileptic episode is classified legally as a "period of insane automatism". The British Epilepsy Association, in common with all medical organisations, has argued consistently that epilepsy is not any kind of insane manifestation, but a proven neurological condition.
  Today's law is based on the McNaghten rules of as long ago as 1843. We are seeking to change those laws by creating a proper definition in the Bill. At the time when the McNaghten rules were written, medical understanding of epilepsy was poor—that is not difficult to understand —and the condition was far more widely believed to have a psychiatric basis. Clearly, the law has not moved with the times.
  When a person is charged with an offence committed during an epileptic attack it is not medically possible for that person to be guilty of a wilful criminal act. In a moment, hon. Members will glean from one of the amendments made to the Bill in Committee how important it is that we get our thinking right on the mental element of any offence that has been committed where the person charged may be insane or unfit to plead.
  It is right that an individual should be able to plead not guilty and cite the details of his epilepsy as a defence. Under the law as it stands, the defendant cannot plead not guilty without the caveat "by virtue of insanity", which results in a mandatory committal to a psychiatric hospital. At present the court cannot place supervision orders in such a case, nor can it discharge the defendant. The court simply has no choice.
  There are instances of courts endeavouring to use their discretion. On occasion, that can be helpful to the defendant, but it does not alter the law or remove the need to change it. In any event, it has no bearing on other cases by way of precedent. Defendants have to choose the lesser of two evils. The law does not offer such people protection. The individual decides, or is advised, to plead guilty. Otherwise, the person has to plead not guilty by virtue of insanity and, as a consequence, is sent to a psychiatric institution.
  The British Epilepsy Association would like two amendments to the law, one of which cannot be dealt with in the Bill. I refer to it because another hon. Member may wish to return to the matter in future. The association wants epilepsy to be reclassified within the law, and the implication that it is a psychiatric illness to be removed. The Bill cannot do that. Instead, it provides the courts with the flexibility that they so urgently require to deal appropriately with such cases.
  At the time of Second Reading, the concept of a trial of the facts to determine whether a person who was unfit to plead had committed a criminal offence was new. Following the Committee stage, correspondence, and a great deal of interest on the part of right hon. and hon. Members, we have now come to terms with what that concept should mean.
  I wish to refer especially to the changes that we made in Committee. The amendments to clause 2 substitute provisions for section 4 of the Criminal Procedure
  726
  (Insanity) Act 1964. The first two amendments sought to restore safeguards available under the 1964 Act which it was not our intention to remove.
  The amendments allow the court to postpone consideration of whether a defendant is unfit to plead until any time up to the opening of the case for the defence. That safeguard was originally introduced into the 1964 Act to answer the criticism that, even when the prosecution had insufficient evidence to secure a conviction, a finding of unfitness prevented the prosecution case from being tested and still resulted in the accused being detained indefinitely in hospital. If the prosecution has an extremely weak case —although the accused person may be unfit to plead or, if he pleaded at all, would have to plead not guilty by reason of insanity—it is surely right that the evidence, such as it is, should be brought before the court, as an instant acquittal might well be the outcome. The question of unfitness to plead would then never need to be addressed. To give flexibility to the courts to postpone consideration of unfitness to plead will allow the case for the prosecution to be tested. If there is insufficient evidence for the jury to convict, the case can be dismissed and the accused acquitted without the need to consider whether he is unfit to plead.
  A further advantage of retaining this provision, as provided for in the amendments that were agreed in Committee, is that it allows the courts to consider the accused's intention—that is, the mental element in cases where that may be relevant. That goes to the heart of the problem faced by epileptics and to the heart of the concern expressed by the British Epilepsy Association.
  The trial of the facts that would follow a finding of unfitness to plead would look only at the facts of the case. It would not consider the accused's motivation. Clearly, it could not do so. It would already have been established that the accused was unfit to plead. Concern was expressed, however, on Second Reading that to exclude the mental element, which is so important in establishing a conviction in other criminal cases and very much the strength of our English criminal law, might be to the detriment of certain mentally vulnerable defendants. This provision, which merely restates the existing law, does not preclude the mental element being taken into account in those cases where it may be relevant. If intent is not established by the prosecution, the court will have the opportunity to acquit the accused in appropriate cases.
  The remaining amendments to clause 2, agreed in Committee, clarify the circumstances in which the same or a separate jury should decide the question of fitness to plead and hear other parts of the trial. We wanted to remove any doubt. The amendments were drafted in such a way as to achieve that aim. They also allow for the postponement of the consideration of fitness to plead, as agreed in the first two amendments. If the question of fitness to plead is considered by the court on the arraignment of the accused—when the accused first appears before the court—and the jury decides that the accused is fit to plead, the case will be referred to a proper trial in which the accused will be tried by a different jury from that which decided the question of fitness to plead. The House will agree that that is the right way for us to proceed with this amendment of the law.
  Similarly, if the accused is found to be unfit to plead on his first appearance in court, the case will be referred to a trial of the facts, which will be heard by a separate jury

  727
  from that which decided the question of fitness to plead. Again, I am sure that hon. Members will feel that that is right.
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: I have been listening intently to the hon. Gentleman's observations on cluase 2. The role of two registered medical practitioners in submitting evidence concerning the accused is critical. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that in the practical circumstances of a trial, a registered medical practitioner means a consultant psychiatrist?
  Mr. Greenway: Yes, I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. It is difficult to know how much of the ground to cover on Third Reading. This is such a complex matter that, for the benefit of those hon. Members who are listening intently to my argument, one almost needs to go back to the beginning and start all over again. That is a very important brick in the Bill to which I have not referred in any detail, save to say that clause 2 gives statutory backing to the McNaghten rules. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to tell me that I am right and that I have given the hon. Gentleman the correct answer.
  I move on to deal with cases in which the question of fitness is raised with the court at a later stage in the trial after some or all of the prosecution's case has been put. Clause 2 allows the court flexibility to direct whether the question of fitness should be decided by the same jury who already heard part of the case or by a separate jury, according to the particular circumstances of the case.
  That is an important provision because clearly there will be some cases where so much evidence has already been adduced that it would benefit both the court and the accused for the same jury who heard all the evidence then to hear the evidence under the provisions outlined in clause 2, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, as to whether the person is fit to plead. However, there could be other cases in which that might not be in the interests of the accused. I do not believe that the House can do anything other than give the court the discretion that it needs in those circumstances.
  In cases where the accused is found unfit to plead and the case is referred to a trial of the facts, the jury who heard the earlier part of the case can also hear the trial of the facts. Of course, if the accused who is unfit later recovers to become fit to plead, as can happen, his or her case would be remitted for a proper trial and that trial would be heard by a new and separate jury.
  The amendments that the Committee gladly agreed provide additional safeguards for people who are unfit to be tried and ensure that those who later recover sufficiently to stand trial will receive a fair and proper hearing.
  Finally, for the benefit of hon. Members present whose interest in the Bill I gladly welcome, I confirm that part II of the Bill provides a range of disposals to the court according to the particular circumstances of the case and the defendant's individual needs. At one extreme, the court retains the power under the 1964 Act of committing the accused indefinitely to a psychiatric hospital. At the other extreme, there may be opportunity to provide an absolute discharge. In the middle, where the real benefits of the Bill are to be found, it will allow the courts to provide for supervision orders which may include treatment so that the accused can get the help that he needs within the community.
  728
  Although the Bill deals with an extremely complex area of the law, the changes it will introduce are straightforward, effective and long overdue. I am most grateful to officials in the Home Office who were most helpful with the drafting of the Bill and the amendments agreed in Committee and who I suspect may be listening to our deliberations today. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Home Office who ensured the Bill's speedy and unimpeded progress thus far. I also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his help and his willingness to co-operate in dealing with the Bill this afternoon. I hope that the Bill will progress to another place and that long-overdue reforms can quickly be put on to the statute book for the benefit of many vulnerable people in our society.
  1.30 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd): I can confirm the Government's continued and full support for the Bill. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) on guiding it through the Committee with great finesse. The Bill contains important reforms, some of which, as we understand from my hon. Friend's lucid explanation, are complex, but which are designed to safeguard the position of severely mentally disordered individuals who are found either unfit to plead or not guilty by reason of insanity.
  On Second Reading, my hon. Friend expertly and clearly described the Bill's aims and he has done so again today. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State, in turn, outlined the Government's stance and support. In the circumstances, there is little for me to add, but perhaps I can confirm the point queried by the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman). The registered medical practitioner to whom the hon. Gentleman referred must be approved by the Secretary of State as having special experience in the diagnosis of treatment of mental disorder.
  Dr. Godman: I am grateful to the Minister for answering my question. As the Bill refers specifically to the Mental Health Act 1983 and to guardianship, will elements of the code of practice require revision because of the Bill?
  Mr. Lloyd: As I did not steer the Bill through Committee I am not fully aware of the details. I hope that if my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale can reply, he will interrupt me.
  Mr. John Greenway: I am grateful for the opportunity to do so. However, I am sorry that my mind wandered as I was dealing with notes that I received from the Official Reporters. Will the hon. Gentleman ask his question again? If you will allow a further intervention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall do what I can to help.
  Dr. Godman: The Minister again shows his characteristic courtesy. I asked whether, in the light of references to the Mental Health act 1983 and especially to the term "guardianship", it is likely that the code of practice—or the sections of it that refer to guardianship—will need to be revised if the Bill is put on to the statute book.
  Mr. Lloyd: May I, at this point, give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale? However, if he would prefer to collect his thoughts, I shall continue.

  729
  The Bill has two main thrusts. First, there will, for the first time, be a requirement for the Crown court to test the case against an accused person who is found unfit to plead in order to satisfy itself that he committed the offence in question. As I said, that is a complex measure which has given rise to a number of issues. They have been carefully considered and we can see no reason why, in practice, the measure should not prove effective. The Government are satisfied that the introduction of a "trial of the facts" would greatly reduce the possibility of an innocent person being compulsorily detained in hospital for an offence that he did not commit.
  The Bill's second main thrust is to provide the Crown court with a wider range of disposal options. Currently, if a person is found unfit to plead, or not guilty by reason of insanity, the court has no option but to send him to hospital for an indefinite period as a restricted patient. There has been increasing concern, not only that compulsory hospital treatment has not always been appropriate on medical grounds, but that it might be disproportionate in view of the nature of the offence.
  The Bill proposes that following a finding of unfitness for trial, where the court is satisfied that the accused did the act or made the omission charged, or a finding of not guilty by reason of insanity, the court should have a choice of disposals—ordering an accused person to be detained in hospital with or without restrictions, a guardianship order, supervision in the community, or absolute discharge. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale, the Government believe that this will enable the court to ensure that its order is appropriate for the circumstances of each case, and will remove the inflexibility of the current provisions of the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964. This will be particularly welcomed by the British Epilepsy Association, to which my hon. Friend rightly paid tribute, which has mounted a vigorous campaign to have the law amended in this regard.
  It has already been made clear that the proposals are not novel. They are based largely on recommendations made by the Butler committee on mentally abnormal offenders, which reported in 1975. At the time, an extensive consultation exercise was conducted. Further consultation has been undertaken and the Bill's proposals have been widely and warmly welcomed by the legal and medical professions and by a wide range of organisations. Indeed, I am not aware of any significant objections to the Bill. I am aware that the specific and detailed question put by the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) has not been answered. I shall ensure that he receives an answer by letter. I regret that I am unable to answer it now.
  Accordingly, it remains only for me to commend the Bill to the House and to wish it a smooth and quick passage through the other place. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale on introducing it.
  1.41 pm
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: As I am a Scots Member and this is an English Bill, I hesitate to speak, but the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) is to be congratulated on introducing the Bill. The House deals with two legal systems—the English and the Scottish—and I sincerely hope that the Scottish legal
  730
  system is not out of kilter in implementing these necessary protective measures for people who, for reasons of insanity or mental ill-health, cannot protect their own interests. I am pleased that the British Epilepsy Association is glad that the Bill is making good progress. I am sure that, if the Scottish system is out of kilter, officials and members of the association who read the debate will contact me.
  Mr. John Greenway: The time available allows me to assure the hon. Gentleman that the Bill is supported by other organisations apart from the British Epilepsy Association. It is supported by many organisations that do social work or work with vulnerable groups and their professional bodies. They include the Association of Chief Officers of Probation, the Association of Professions for the Mentally Handicapped, the British Association of Social Workers, the British Institute of Mental Handicap, the Campaign for Mentally Handicapped People, Disability Alliance, Justice, Mencap, the Mental Health Foundation, the National Association for Mental Health—MIND—the Legal Action Group, the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders, the National Association of Probation Officers, the National Schizophrenia Fellowship, the Prison Reform Trust, the British Deaf Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists. I have listed all those organisations deliberately. They read like a "Who's Who" of the organisations concerned with vulnerable people and those who try to care for vulnerable people. The presence of the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman), which I warmly welcome, gives him an opportunity to take up the cudgels and look at the position in Scotland. If he finds that the reforms contained in the Bill need to be made in Scotland, I assure him that I will help him as much as I can.
  Dr. Godman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, especially for his recitation of those honourable associations and societies, all of which are as well known north of the border as south.
  The hon. Gentleman's mention of vulnerable groups prompted me to say that the Scottish system might be out of kilter with the English one. Occasionally, the two systems for protecting vulnerable individuals become unbalanced. For example, the Criminal Justice Act 1988 contains a remarkable section that allows the use of video-recorded interviews for evidence in court in child or sexual abuse cases. It is regrettable that, in Scotland, there is no such provision and I hope that our legislation is not out of kilter with this fine Bill.
  I offer my compliments to the hon. Member for Ryedale. I shall table a question to the Scottish Office asking it to confirm that our legislation is almost as good as the hon. Gentleman's proposals.
  1.48 pm
  Mr. John Greenway: With the leave of the House, I am grateful for the opportunity to deal with this important matter.
  I shall try to answer the earlier question asked by the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman). For a brief moment I feared that our wicket was in jeopardy, but the answer to the question that he so rightly raised has now been assembled. Clause 5 provides for the use of guardianship orders under section 7 of the

  731
  Mental Health Act 1983. A guardian may decide where the person lives and require that he attends medical treatment, occupational therapy or education. He or she may insist that a doctor or other person is allowed to see the person under guardianship. A guardianship order would be made initially for six months, but would be renewable.
  It was not my intention, in drafting the Bill, to seek to change the overall provisions of the Mental Health Act 1983. However, the House and the Minister will have noted the hon. Gentleman's concern. It is less a matter for the Home Office than for the Department of Health. The hon. Gentleman's intervention was timely in drawing attention to the fact that the Bill depends on the smooth working of the provisions of the 1983 Act.
  Mr. Peter Lloyd: The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow raises important points, not all of which relate directly to the Home Office. However, I shall undertake to see that my colleagues in the relevant Departments—the Scottish Office and the Department of Health—read what he said and are aware of his concern.
  Mr. John Greenway: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving that undertaking and I know that the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow will be, too.
  I shall not refer directly to the measure, but rely on my memory of it. In the Bill we have created a framework whereby, at a trial of fact, the person who is unfit to plead will be represented and there will be a guardian ad litem arrangement which seeks to ensure that the accused's interests are properly protected.
  1.51 pm
  Miss Joan Lestor: I rise for only a few moments to congratulate the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway). His Bill, like the previous one on the subject, has all-party support and, as he said, support from a variety of organisations that want justice to be done and do not want people to be subject to distress due to a situation over which they have no control.
  Some of the legislation being amended is 150 years old. It sometimes takes the House a long time to catch up with developments that have taken place. We are also amending legislation that was enacted about 15 years ago, but some of it goes back further, as we are all aware. The assurances given by the Minister that the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) will be looked into mean that the Bill will be made to apply and work.
  I add the Opposition's congratulations to the hon. Member for Ryedale on not shying away from a difficult subject that is fraught with enormous complexities which many people would want to avoid.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  Football (Offences) Bill
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.—[Sir J. Wheeler.]
  1.52 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North (Sir. J. Wheeler) on his enterprise in bringing forward the Bill and the good judgment that he displayed in securing its speedy passage through Committee to Third Reading today. It is a considerable achievement and all who are concerned to see football in this country rid of the offensive and violent behaviour that has too often disfigured it in recent years will welcome the measures contained in the Bill.
  In Committee, hon. Members asked me to look again at a number of issues. I hope that the House will bear with me if I seek to reassure those hon. Members that it is right for the Bill to be left in the form in which it left Committee and in which it is now.
  I have given further consideration to the point raised about the condition in clause 1 restricting the offences to a period of two hours before kick-off, or the advertised time, whichever is earlier. Some hon. Members questioned whether two hours was long enough. The Government believe that the provision of pre-match entertainment to encourage supporters to turn up early, which I think lay behind the worry, is a good initiative, which we support. However, even at the largest fixtures, it is unlikely that a significant number of supporters will arrive more than two hours before kick off. A two-hour period is used in part IV of the Public Order Act 1986 and I am not aware that it has proved inadequate. I believe that the amendment that we made in Committee will prove wise and sufficient.
  I have thought with the greatest care about the points made in Committee about the formulation of clause 3. However, I remain of the view that the wording that we now have is right. I will briefly explain the policy considerations and practicalities that have influenced me in reaching that conclusion.
  Clause 3, as amended in Committee, creates a new offence of taking part in chanting of an "indecent or racialist nature." Any spectator at a football match who repeatedly utters any words or sounds of an indecent or racialist nature, in concert with one or more others, is guilty of an offence.
  Lord Justice Taylor considered that the provisions of the Public Order Act would not always cover such objectionable behaviour. Under section 4, chanting or a single shout would be an offence if another person feared that immediate unlawful violence would be used against him or that the chanting would provoke violence. Under section 5, the chanting must be likely to cause "harassment, alarm or distress" to a victim—I stress, to an identifiable victim. Lord Justice Taylor considered that racialist chanting at a football match should be an offence without the need for an identifiable victim, and I agree.
  We needed to think clearly about the context in which the proposed offence would be committed. At a designated football match, attended probably by thousands of people, the crowd may sing, shout, groan, gasp or sound like the House of Commons on a particularly good evening, in an atmosphere of considerable tension and excitment—again, like the House on occasions that we can all remember. The

  733
  volume of collective sounds will be considerable. In that noisy and volatile atmosphere, racialist or indecent chanting is not only socially objectionable but becomes, potentially at least, a risk to public order.
  Against that background, it would be a mistake to criminalise a single racialist or indecent remark that might not be widely audible in the ground; to do so would set the threshold for criminal behaviour too low. We wish to prevent group chanting, which is repeated and loud and may spark trouble, and if it occurs, to prosecute and punish the offenders.
  There are other practical considerations. Some hon. Members questioned the ability of the police to identify and remove those committing the proposed offence. The police do not foresee too much difficulty. Police inside a ground will generally be able to identify those who are chanting repeatedly. Some officers may be directed to the offenders, and in particular to their ringleaders, by their colleagues operating closed-circuit television. An officer may then be in a position to hear the words or sounds uttered by offenders, but securely identifying a person uttering a single shout would be much more difficult. The police will decide whether offenders should be arrested, either during the game or at a later stage.
  Evidence from closed-circuit television will play an important part in identifying offenders and securing their conviction for offences in the Bill. I hope, therefore, that the House will accept that there are persuasive reasons of policy and enforceability for preferring the formulation adopted in Committee.
  Clause 3 is designed to deal with group chanting of indecent and racialist matter, which presents the public order and social problem. The Bill sets that offence at a lower threshold than current law. Such conduct should be an offence only when it is made especially objectionable by being carried out in concert with others.
  Some members of the Committee asked about the removal of perimeter fencing. Lord Justice Taylor recommended that, for the safety of spectators, fences should be lowered and spikes and overhanging projections removed. He considered that if fences were lowered, it would be prudent to have a criminal sanction against running on to the pitch. I agree, although it is beyond the scope of our discussions on the Bill to consider whether the perimeter fences should be lowered or even removed. That is a matter for the local authorities issuing the safety certificates. The Football Licensing Authority will be working closely with the clubs, the police and the local authorities to ensure that adequate provision is available for spectators to escape on to the pitch in an emergency.
  The Bill embodies the three recommendations made by Lord Justice Taylor in his report following the tragic events at Hillsborough by making it an offence to throw anything at or towards the players or spectators, to take part in racialist or indecent chanting or to go on to the playing area "without good reason". That latter qualification will ensure that, if there is an emergency and the pitch is a necessary way of escape, no offence will be committed.
  This is a welcome and necessary Bill. I commend it wholeheartedly to the House and express my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North for his initiative in bringing it before us.
  2 pm
  Sir John Wheeler: I am glad to welcome the comments of my hon. Friend the Minister and to confirm that the Bill has been considered in great detail by the Standing Committee and has received the wholehearted support of all that Committee's members, who also agreed with the Government's improvements and amendments.
  Those of us who serve on the Select Committee on Home Affairs are especially grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for his courtesy, his interest in the progress of the Bill and his support for it. His comments were welcome indeed, and I add my support to what he said.
  In Committee, we had a useful debate on clause 1. The Bill sets a time limit of two hours before the start of a match. In that regard, my hon. Friend's reference to the Public Order Act 1986 is entirely appropriate. It is a perfectly fair and reasonable prescription with which I know that those who take an interest in the game of football agree.
  The Bill goes on to deal with the objectionable practice of racialist chanting, and chanting of a threatening nature. My hon. Friend the Minister explained carefully why the Committee felt able to agree amendments requiring the offence to be proved where one or more persons are engaged in the action. I am satisfied that the police will have adequate powers to deal with incidents that cause great offence and that the Bill will be extremely useful to the game of football.
  The Committee agreed to one other amendment, omitting the reference to Scotland. When it first considered the subject, the Home Affairs Committee felt it proper that Scotland should have the opportunity to enjoy the protection of the creation of offences under the Bill. However, the Committee and others concerned with the game of football fully agree that the law in Scotland is adequate and that the Scottish police have no particular difficulty. I am glad to assure the House, therefore, that the removal of the reference to Scotland is entirely satisfactory from every point of view.
  Mr. John Greenway: My hon. Friend will know that when the Select Committee investigated the policing of football hooliganism, its members went to a number of fixtures. Our junior Clerk and I went to the Skol cup final at Hampden Park in Glasgow and witnessed the entire police operation with the chief constable. The chief constable told me that he was anxious that we should not, in the course of our deliberations—from which this Bill follows—do anything to impede or impair the flexibility that the police in Scotland enjoy when policing football. Scottish common law is very different from ours. There are clearly occasions when the law in England, Wales and Scotland should run in parallel, but in this case Scottish law is superior to the law of England and Wales. The police in Scotland appear to have done a tremendous job of ridding Scottish football of much of the hooliganism that was, until five or six years ago, associated with the game there.
  Sir John Wheeler: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments and his agreement to omitting reference to Scotland from the Bill. My hon. Friend was burdened by the Committee with the duty of attending a game of football in Glasgow to witness the effectiveness of the policing operation—
  Mr. John Greenway: On a Sunday.
  Sir John Wheeler: Such is the measure of my hon. Friend's devotion to the inquiry on which the Committee had embarked. He is right to say that the Strathclyde police have worked out a formula for the policing of football. That formula, in association with the common law of Scotland and other legislation, has provided them with a highly effective method of policing. I have no wish to see those arrangements disturbed by the Bill and we are delighted to agree to the omission of Scotland from it.
  Football has gone through a difficult period in recent years. The Committee's report on policing football hooliganism, which was well received by all with an interest in the game, will help to deal with improving the game for players and spectators, and will also help the clubs and be in the interests of the public. The adoption of the three offences originally recommended by Lord Justice Taylor will set fair the game of football in the coming season, assuming that the Bill receives support, as I believe it will, in the other place. The future of football also depends on the establishment of the new Football Licensing Authority, which will do an important job for the game. I am glad that the authority, together with officials from the Home Office, is doing such excellent work in support of the game.
  I conclude by referring to the work of the national football intelligence unit. During the Committee's inquiry, we formed the view that it is an organisation of great merit, containing especially dedicated police officers. The offences created under the Bill will be especially useful to the police, and the unit will be able to ensure that the police are possessed of all the information that they need to manage the game of football. The Bill leaves the House for the other place with the ringing endorsement of all those who have an interest in the game, and in the belief that it will contribute to the future of that important sport. I am glad that the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Lloyd), has been able to lend his support and prestige to it.
  2.10 pm
  Mr. John Greenway: I am glad that the Bill has reached this advanced stage so soon after publication of the report by the Select Committee on Home Affairs into the policing of football hooliganism. Today's debate brings to an end a period of three or four years during which Parliament has tried to wrestle with the problem of football hooliganism.
  I was not in favour of the proposal in the Football Spectators Bill for an identity scheme. We have had many debates about the best way to deal with football hooliganism and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North (Sir J. Wheeler) said, that Bill contained an extremely important proposal for the establishment of the Football Licensing Authority. My
  736
  Bill and that authority will form a pincer movement for the better policing of football and for the greater safety of spectators.
  The horrific tragedy at Hillsborough two years ago showed that better policing and the safety of spectators cannot be considered separately. From the time that I watched on television the events at Sheffield that Saturday afternoon, I have been convinced that the erection of fences to stop people running on to the pitch was the ultimate cause of the tragedy. There was no means of lawful escape from the ground. The erection of fences, a measure designed to deal with the problem of hooliganism, gave rise to a far worse problem and caused the deaths of 95 people. Folk will say that there were other causes and contributory factors, and that is true, but if the fences had not been there people would have had a chance to escape.
  Mr. Hugo Summerson: Does my hon. Friend agree that we should commend the greater resources that have been made available to the game following publication of the Taylor report? Those resources will enable clubs to bring their grounds and amenities up to date and provide for the greater safety of spectators.
  Mr. Greenway: I entirely agree. Perhaps I should remind the House of my interest as president of York City football club. The measures in last year's Finance Act, introduced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he was Chancellor, were warmly welcomed throughout football. They are another feature of the change in atmosphere to be perceived in the world of football and its relationship to the House. The Bill is part of that change.
  The help provided by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department in guiding the Bill through Committee and on to the statute book must not be underestimated. I know that he agrees that the House should remind people, particularly those associated with football—spectators, those running the clubs, the Football Association and the Football League—that the measure has not been introduced to enable the police to arrest more young people on a Saturday afternoon and lock them up. We are introducing it because we want to prevent the sort of tragedy that occurred at Hillsborough. It is a preventive measure. People should know when they attend a football match that if they misbehave—three specific forms of misbehaviour are specified—by chanting abuse, throwing missiles or running on to the pitch, the wrath of football and of the law will come down heavily upon them. We are talking of behaviour that can lead to a considerable tragedy if it is not curtailed. It is not merely anti-social behaviour. It must be the hope of us all that the Bill will discourage such behaviour. In the long term, that will be why the measure will be recognised as a great boost for the game of football. It can help us to rid football of the hooliganism that has besmirched our national game for far too long. I greatly welcome the Bill.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  Water Requirements (Planning) Bill
  Order for Second Reading read.
  2.15 pm
  Mr. Hugo Summerson: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is a conservation measure. We live in a conservation-minded age, and the Bill would have the effect of ensuring both the conservation and preservation of our water supplies. As the poet sang:
  "Sweet Thames, run softly, till I end my Song."
  But "sweet Thames" would not run softly, let alone the song, if efforts were not being made constantly to keep the great river in order. Surprisingly few people realise the extent to which the world-famous river is used merely as a conduit to bring water from hundreds of miles away to our great capital city.
  My Bill would require a person seeking planning permission for a new building to send an estimate of the annual water requirement to the area water company at the same time as submitting the application for planning permission to the planning authority. I have secured all-party support for my Bill.
  There are two objectives behind the requirement. First, water supply companies should be able to plan ahead. If they have warning of planning applications, they will know what level of building activity there will be in future and how much water they will be called upon to supply. Secondly, we must try to instil a "conservation mind" into those who make applications for planning permission. If the Bill is enacted, applicants will have to contact the local water authority and open a channel of communication between themselves and the authority. In that way, the authority will be able to say, "If you arrange the water supply in this way, a way that is different from that which you are intending, you will be able to save perhaps 25 per cent. of the amount of water that it is estimated will be consumed under the original requirements."
  Mr. James Arbuthnot: There is a requirement in my hon. Friend's Bill for a certificate to be submitted which shows that an estimate has been made of the quantity of water that will be used. However, there is no requirement for the water authority to act in any way. The suggestion that the authority would become involved in the planning of the extension seems to be a good, but perhaps a pious, hope.
  Mr. Summerson: I trust that it would be both a good and a pious hope. It would open a channel of communication. If time permits, I shall read some of the responses that I have had from water authorities.
  The demand for public water supplies has increased by 70 per cent. over the past 30 years. That is a significant pointer to an increasingly affluent, and effluent, society. We all tend to forget that what goes into a building must also go out. It is not only the supply of water to a premises that a water authority must bear in mind; it must also treat the used water that comes out the other end.
  Mr. Michael Colvin: Will my hon. Friend clarify one point? He referred to water authorities, but I was under the impression that since privatisation there are only water companies. There is only one authority—the National Rivers Authority. It may
  738
  have been a slip of the tongue, but if there is indeed some other water authority, I hope that my hon. Friend will tell me.
  Mr. Summerson: I can set my hon. Friend's mind at rest; I meant water plcs. I should have said plc, especially as it has one less syllable than authority, and time is short.
  We should ask ourselves about the uses of water. We take it for granted that when we turn on the tap, water will come from it. We use water for washing cars, watering the garden and washing clothes. Some people even drink it. It is used in various domestic facilities—for example, every time that we use the lavatory it takes two gallons of water to flush it. A bath takes 18 gallons; a washing machine cycle takes 25 gallons; and a hosepipe or sprinkler can use 220 gallons an hour. In manufacturing industry, it takes one gallon of water to produce a pint of beer. I hope that no one asks me how that comes about; it is a figure that I have been given. It takes 1,000 gallons of water to produce one tonne of steel, and it takes 6,600 gallons to manufacture one motor car. In the Thames Water area alone, 600 million gallons of water are used every day. That is equivalent to the total volume of the Albert hall being emptied and refilled every 75 minutes. That gives us some idea of how much water is being used.
  Thames Water is considering building a new reservoir in Oxfordshire to supply the rapidly expanding towns in the Thames valley, such as Witney and Swindon, and to ensure supplies of water to London. The idea is to send water down the Thames to London, where it will be stored in reservoirs. That is all part of a continuing effort, going back many years. I remember my days as a land agent, in the early 1970s, when I helped to look after a farm on the chalk in Oxfordshire. In those days, Thames Water had what was known as its ground water scheme, where bores were drilled in the chalk and ground water was pumped out and sent down the Thames to arrive, eventually, in London.
  The Bill states that anyone seeking planning permission for a new building has to send an estimate of the annual water requirement to the water plc. If the House gives the Bill a Second Reading, I would seek to table amendments in Committee to state that that would not be a requirement for a single building. It would have to be a requirement for developments of a minimum size, perhaps 10 houses or flats, a factory of 5,000 sq ft. or an office building of perhaps 10,000 sq ft. Obviously it would be absurd if every time someone wanted to build on a conservatory or a bathroom, he had to send details to the water plc as it would certainly swamp it in paper.
  I mentioned to my hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Arbuthnot) that I would quote comments by various water plcs and here we go. South West Water says:
  "There is no doubt of the importance of making our customers aware of the cost and value of the water required to support their proposals, and any advance information which can be provided to the water companies is extremely useful for planning purposes."
  North West Water stated:
  "It is helpful for customers and potential customers to be more aware of their requirements for water and, of course, we are always keen to know as soon as possible of potential new demand for our services."
  Severn Trent Water stated:
  "It is a very good idea"—
  I hope that my hon. Friend is listening—

  739
  "and should be extended not only to the erection of a building, but to any change or alteration in any building that requires planning permission."
  Mr. Arbuthnot: I am certainly listening to my hon. Friend; I am merely disagreeing with him. For example, how is anyone who builds a new factory unit to know who will occupy it? If it is occupied by a paper-making industry, it will use an incredible amount of water as opposed to some other industries. One has no idea what sort of tenant will occupy the new building. Will these estimates be of any use and will they have any meaning at all?
  Mr. Summerson: When most people build a factory they know perfectly well what use it will be put to. As I said, channels of communication will already have been opened between the developer and the water plc and I hope that they will both make use of it.
  Southern Water stated:
  "It would be of assistance if your proposals could be extended so that notification is given also to the sewerage undertaker."
  Welsh Water said:
  "We have long felt that any planning applications should be formally referred to ourselves for all the obvious reasons."
  Northumbria Water stated:
  "Consultation with water undertakers has become more tenuous as we are no longer statutory consultees under the Town and Country Planning legislation."
  One of the main reasons why I have introduced the Bill is that there are many rivers throughout the country which are in danger of drying up altogether, due to use and abstraction. I make no apology for it, but I shall read out the names of those rivers. In the Anglian region; they are the River Hiz, the Hoffer brook, the River Slea, the Redgrave and Lopham fen site of special scientific interest, the River Glen, the East Rushton SSSI, the river Mun, the River Deben, and Hollesley-Black ditch.
  In the north-west area, there is the River Lowther. In Severn-Trent, there are Dover beck, the River Worfe, Battlesfield brook, Rufford lake, Leomansley brook and Black brook (Tamworth).
  740
  In the Southern area, there are the River Darent, Wallop brook, the River Little Stour, the River Nailbourne, St. Mary Bourne, the River Meon, and River Hamble.
  In the Welsh area there are the Frome, the Garren, the Gamber, the Monnow, the Alun, the Afon Clywedog, and Cefni reservoir.
  In the Thames area there are the Misbourne, the Pang, the Ver, the Wey, Letcombe brook, the Upper Kennet, the Thames Head, the Ampney, the Churn, the Coln and the Windrush.
  In Yorkshire, there are the Derwent and the Wharfe, and in Wessex the River Piddle, the Allen and the Wey. All those rivers are in danger of drying up.
  As I said at the outset, my Bill is a conservation measure, and I hope for the sake of the rivers that I have mentioned that the House will give it a Second Reading.
  2.29 pm
  Mr. James Arbuthnot: My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson) is to be congratulated on presenting the Bill, and also on being the nicest of men—as I had the honour to be able to say in his constituency as recently as Wednesday. As we have already heard, he is also the most romantic of men: I felt that the opening lines of the poem with which he began his speech set it in context in an excellent fashion.
  None the less, I have some reservations about the Bill —about its enforceability, for example. My hon. Friend suggests that we should all put in estimates of how much water we use. I have no idea—
  It being half-past Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 May.

Private Members' Bills

  ELIMINATION OF POVERTY IN RETIREMENT BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.

  HARE COURSING BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Mr. Harry Cohen: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I had not even moved the Second Reading. Surely I should be allowed to do so before anyone can object.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.

  RESERVE FREE TRAVEL SCHEME (LONDON) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.

  TRADE DESCRIPTIONS (ANIMAL TESTING) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Objection taken. Second Reading what day?
  Mr. Jeremy Corbyn: With the agreement of the Member in charge of the Bill, Friday 26 April.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.

  PARISH COUNCILS (ACCESS TO INFORMATION) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Objection taken. Second Reading what day?
  Mr. Corbyn: With the agreement of the Member in charge of the Bill, Friday 26 April.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.

  EDUCATION PROVISION BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 24 May.

  COAL IMPORTS BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Objection taken. Second Reading what day?
  Mr. Corbyn: With the agreement of the Member in charge of the Bill, Friday 26 April.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.

  HOSPITAL SCHOOLS IN LONDON BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.

  COURTS (RESEARCH) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Second Reading what day? No day named.

  SMOKE DETECTORS BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 26 April.
  Mr. Corbyn: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Am I right in thinking that it was the hon. Member for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker) who objected to all but two of those Bills—including my Elimination of Poverty in Retirement Bill? If so, can Hansard record it, so that the people will know who is objecting?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The identity of hon. Members who object to Bills is not recorded.
  Mr. Cohen: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Surely it was out of order for an objection to be taken before I had moved the Second Reading of my Hare Coursing Bill. As a result, it was impossible to tell who had objected. If it was the Government Whip, that is significant: many animal lovers who want an end to hare coursing would be annoyed if the Government were responsible for the objection, and will take that into account.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The procedure was perfectly in order. Objections can be taken at any point immediately after the title of a Bill has been read out.
  Mr. James Arbuthnot: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I must plead guilty to making a fundamental mistake in objecting to the Smoke Detectors Bill. I understand that the Bill to which I objected is entirely different from its predecessor and I wish to withdraw my objection if that is possible.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman cannot do that. At least he has been able to record the fact that he made an error; the objection must stand, however.
  Mr. Corbyn: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already dealt with the hon. Gentleman's point. He will take time away from the Adjournment debate.

  Plumbing
  Motion made, and Question proposed,That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Nicholas Baker.]
  2.34 pm
  Mr. Robin Squire: Before I begin, I welcome in particular the presence here of the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martyn Smyth), who, like me, is a prominent member of the all-party plumbing registration group, my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne), who is here to support what I have to say, and also my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims). In particular, I welcome the fact that the Under-Secretary of State is here. I look forward to his response to several of the points that I intend to make. I hope that at the end of the debate the country at large will be much better informed about the state of plumbing in the United Kingdom.
  Ten years have elapsed since I drew the attention of the House to the standard of plumbing in the United Kingdom. Hansard of 10 April 1981 detailed my concerns at the time and the Government's response. I have initiated this debate as the chairman of the all-party plumbing registration group, since members of the group —and many others—continue to be concerned about standards and the inadequacy of controls in order to maintain health and safety.
  Immediately following the 1981 debate, at the Government's invitation, discussions and corespondence took place about the three issues that I raised at the time—first, the lack of training in the plumbing industry; secondly, the ineffectiveness of the regulations and byelaws covering plumbing work; and, thirdly, the lack of regulation of those undertaking plumbing work.
  I do not intend to dwell on the first issue—the lack of training—save to say that there is no evidence to suggest that more training is being undertaken today than 10 years ago. While competent and responsible plumbers face intense and unfair competition from so-called cowboys, there is little incentive to train. I earnestly hope that the changes to plumbing training currently in hand, which will be linked to national vocational qualifications, will lead to an improvement. I certainly welcome the new tax relief on the fees paid by individuals training towards such qualifications which was announced in the recent Budget statement. As a nation, we need to create an adequate pool of craftspeople with both practical and theoretical skills in plumbing, using the well-established vocational training facilities available.
  The main concern that I share with colleagues in the plumbing registration group is the lack of enforcement of statutory regulations and byelaws covering plumbing. Correspondence with Ministers and the debate on the Water Bill in the other place on 8 May 1989 reveal that the Government consider that health and safety standards for plumbing are adequately dealt with through building regulations and water byelaws. My colleagues and I dispute that. The technical requirements are meaningless without proper enforcement.
  Building regulations covering sanitary plumbing, unvented hot water systems and drainage are enforced by local authority building control officers. Contraventions undoubtedly take place which are not detected because building control officers do not know what work is going
  744
  on and where. Although new buildings may be subject to inspection, work on existing properties goes largely unreported and unseen.
  The effects of faulty sanitary plumbing are not only unpleasant but can adversely affect health. I am sure that most of us have heard the familiar gurgles emanating from the waste plumbing systems when staying overnight in hotels, or even in our own homes. These are usually due to water in the U-bends of the trap seals being sucked out. That causes soil pipe gases to enter buildings. The problem is faulty workmanship. The results are headaches, nausea and general poor health. A visit to the doctor may result in the diagnosis of a bug going round and the prescription of unnecessary, ineffective and expensive drugs. One old age pensioner in London's east end felt so unwell that her doctor prescribed antibiotics. When a registered plumber inspected the sanitary plumbing he found no trap seal at all. She had been breathing in foul air. When the plumbing was rectified the old lady made an instant recovery. Many others have suffered in the same way. The Building Research Establishment is certainly aware of the effects of faulty sanitary plumbing, but I understand that the Government currently have no statistical evidence of its overall impact on the nation's health.
  Incorrectly installed hot water systems can also pose considerable safety hazards, including risks of explosion and scalding. Again, I understand that the Building Research Establishment has accumulated evidence of incidents at home and abroad in recent years showing the catastrophic effects of such explosions, which are akin to the results of a missile attack. The safety of hot water systems could be better dealt with in regulations made under the Water Act 1989. I should welcome a reaction from my hon. Friend the Minister to that suggestion because inspection of such systems is currently divided between water byelaw inspectors and building control officers. Water contamination and explosions could result through confusion about enforcement.
  I believe that the Department of the Environment is proposing to introduce amendments to the building regulations which would require unvented hot water systems to be installed only by competent persons, who would be required to give notice to building control officers but not to water byelaw inspectors. I warn the Minister now that notification will be very limited. I am informed that less than 10 per cent. of systems installed to date have been notified to local authorities, so it will be reassuring if the Minister will not only publicise the statutory requirement to give notice but encourage local authorities to prosecute cases coming to light in which installers have failed to give such notice. Unless building regulations are properly enforced, there is little point in having them.
  That also applies to water byelaws made under section 17 of the Water Act 1945 by water undertakers in England and Wales. Those undertakers have a duty to enforce their byelaws. Inspection on most new property may be carried out because the work comes to the attention of the water undertakers, but there continues to be a gap in the enforcement of byelaws in existing buildings. I first raised that issue in 1981 and the Government acknowledged the difficulties. Since then, new water byelaws have been introduced following widespread consultation. Similar provisions also apply in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Water byelaws are intended to assist water undertakers to

  745
  maintain adequate supplies of wholesome water, and failure to do so may be a criminal offence under the 1989 Water Act.
  I understand that the water industry is reviewing the future of water byelaws, including their enforcement. That is timely, because it is as well to remind the House what water plumbing may do. It may pose risks to health as a consequence of contamination from backflow or back siphonage of foul or dirty water, the contamination of drinking water systems, and the use of inferior material in plumbing systems. Plumbing may also waste water through the installation of substandard or inefficient appliances and fittings.
  Water byelaws dealing with those matters pose considerable responsibilities for the water industry, with potentially serious implications for the health of their consumers if the requirements are not adequately enforced. The United Kingdom water industry now has the added responsibility of conforming to the European Community construction products directive and drinking water quality directive and the subsequent regulations. Water byelaw enforcement is therefore of even more significance.
  I understand that the last known formal study into byelaw enforcement was commissioned by the Department of the Environment in the late 1960s. The results published in 1971 were appalling. They revealed that 61 per cent. of the 1,300 installations surveyed contravened the water byelaw requirements specifically relating to back siphonage. Professional plumbers are cynically aware that the situation has not improved. Indeed, it is likely that matters have worsened, for infringements are seen every day.
  We now have further evidence. The South Staffordshire water company decided six years ago to intensify its programme of industrial and commercial inspections. The company has so far inspected about 90 per cent. of all industrial and commercial properties within its area at least once. Those inspections have revealed a staggering 48,000 byelaw infringements, of which 25 to 30 per cent. involve potentially serious water contamination risks. They included direct contact between mains water supplies and cyanide, arsenic, chemicals, acids, canal water, mortuary post-mortem rooms and sewers. In one case, snails and legionnaire's disease bacteria were found in cold water storage systems supplying the operating theatre of a hospital. In another instance, the mains water supplies of a funeral parlour was insufficiently protected against backflow contamination which could occur while chemicals were being used during the embalming process. In a third case, 99 byelaw infringements were found in one industrial plant; 24 of them were submerged mains water inlets connected to vats of phosphoric acid. The fourth and final example involved a junior and infants schools where inadequately covered cold water storage systems supplied wash basins in the toilet area where childen obtained water for drinking.
  If time allowed, I could give many more examples. Almost every imaginable risk has been discovered at some time. Fortunately, due to that water company's diligence all but the very minor infringements found have now been
  746
  rectified and a rolling programme of re-inspection is being carried out. In one case, it cost £100,000 to put the plumbing installation in good order.
  Such monstrosities cannot be exclusive to the South Staffordshire water company. The number of infringements unearthed could well show the extent of the problem in other parts of the country. If so, that disposes of the belief that plumbing standards are adequately dealt with by water byelaws alone. Who installed such potentially lethal plumbing systems? Obviously it was incompetent, so-called plumbers who neither knew nor cared about correct installation or compliance with water byelaws.
  It would be helpful if the Minister could reassure the House and the parliamentary plumbing registration group to the contrary. With that in mind, perhaps he will inform the House of the annual average number of water byelaw inspections carried out by water undertakers on new domestic and non-domestic supplies and on extensions and alterations to such supplies and of estimates for the value of such work. In addition, is he aware of a system for the reporting and publication of information on either backflow contamination incidents or the health problems associated with water quality inside buildings? In that context, it would also be helpful to know the number of prosecutions brought by each water undertaker for infringements of water byelaws during the past 10 years and the number of convictions obtained.
  The information, that I hope that the Minister may be able to provide will help the House to appreciate the extent of water byelaw enforcement. If, by chance, the Minister is unable to supply some of those details, I strongly suggest that the Government promote another in-depth investigation. The House and the public need reassurance that health and safety standards are not being compromised by inadequate enforcement or even by the commercial priorities of the water industry.
  The final issue with which I wish to deal is the regulation of those who undertake plumbing work for gain. I make no excuse for raising it again because a successful resolution of the issue would raise standards and be of considerable benefit to the public as well as to those who are responsible for the enforcement of statutory requirements.
  Unlike the position in many other countries—including some member states of the European Community—anyone in the United Kingdom can undertake plumbing work for gain, call himself a plumber or set up in business as a plumbing contractor and advertise as such. Successive Governments have believed that voluntary self-regulation was the best means of improving standards. The 105-year-old register of plumbers maintained by the Institute of Plumbing—which is based in my constituency—is cited by Ministers as the most effective way of achieving public recognition of a reputable plumber.
  As an honorary fellow of the institute, I know that public acknowledgement of its work is appreciated. However, voluntary self-regulation applies only to plumbers registered with the institute. They need not be registered and, indeed, some currently plying their trade have been removed from the institute's register for failure to meet the conditions of voluntary registration. It is also difficult for registered plumbers to continue to maintain standards by, for example, conforming to water byelaws when they face unfair competition from incompetent and irresponsible cowboy operators who are either ignorant of

  747
  or indifferent to water byelaw requirements. Self-regulation is effective only when it carries some meaningful sanction.
  The Dutch and German practice where, by law, licensed plumbers are required to use approved water fittings installed in accordance with approved codes of practice is a good example. Eventually, our full integration into the European Community will result in European standards for the most common plumbing fittings and a European code of practice for installations. I am confident that our Dutch and German colleagues will wish to retain their superior practice which, unless the Government modify their stance, will place the British plumbing industry, its manufacturers and its installers at a considerable disadvantage.
  There is no room for complacency. Plumbing needs to be put on a similar footing to gas installation work. I speak 20 days after the introduction of the statutory registration of gas installation businesses. Members of the parliamentary plumbing registration group applaud the Government's stance on the regulation of those who undertake gas work for gain. Gas is a hazardous substance and should be adequately controlled to protect lives and property. Official statistics of deaths and injuries from faulty gas works have proved the need for statutory regulation. The effects of faulty plumbing work are not so obvious, but that is no excuse for inaction. There are 23 million buildings connected to mains water, supplying 60 million inhabitants and protection from sub-standard plumbing work is no less important. Compulsory registration, perhaps based on protection of title, would be of great assistance to the regulatory authorities, would be enthusiastically received by competent and responsible plumbers and is vital to the health of the general public.
  2.50 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tim Yeo): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire) on his perseverance. As he said, it is 10 years since he first raised the subject in the House. My hon. Friend, who is an expert on housing issues, feels strongly about regulation of the plumbing industry. I am glad that he has been supported by my hon. Friends the Members for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne) and for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims) and by the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth).
  I agree that this subject deserves serious consideration by the House. It is much to the credit of my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch that his unstinting efforts on behalf of the Institute of Plumbing have kept this issue alive in parliamentary circles over the past 10 years. My hon. Friend again spoke eloquently today in support of his arguments for improved standards and tighter regulation.
  Standards of plumbing are a subject close to the heart of any civilised person. I am sure that we have all complained from time to time, perhaps particularly when travelling abroad, when there are not only gurgles but perhaps smells which show a lower standard of plumbing than we would regard as satisfactory at home.
  We in the United Kingdom rightly demand a high standard. One of the few things that might be guaranteed to gain immediate cross-party agreement would be a failure in the plumbing in the Palace of Westminster. I am sure that all hon. Members would take much comfort from the presence among us, in the form of my hon. Friend the
  748
  Member for Hornchurch, of a fellow of the Institute of Plumbing. I have no doubt that he would rush to our assistance. We rely on the plumber. Rather like the dentist, we would prefer not to have to see him too often, but we are pleased that he is there when we need him.
  As the plumber occupies such a position, it is distressing when the so-called cowboys of the industry try to exploit it. Not only does the consumer lose out in poor quality work, but the vast majority of reputable plumbers suffer from the backlash of public opinion based on the performance of a disreputable minority.
  In recent years, we have confronted the problem of the cowboy builder. The House will recall that, at the Government's instigation, a working party was set up in 1987 to look into the problems associated with the activities of unqualified and unprofessional building contractors. The chief executive of the Institute of Plumbing was a member of the working party. Significantly, although the working party recommended that further consideration should be given to the statutory registration of building trades, it did not go so far as to endorse or recommend such schemes.
  In welcoming the report of the working party, my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside made it clear that the Government were looking to the building trade and consumer groups to develop an assessment and approval mechanism for builders' guarantee schemes, which would promote the reputable builder. As a result, the Office of Fair Trading provided a forum for the industry and consumer groups to develop that approach. That work is being carried forward in close consultation with the industry and I understand that it is being consulted on the second draft of the fair deal contract.
  I must, however, emphasise that the Government's view on regulation of the industry, including the compulsory registration of trades, has not changed. We believe that any form of statutory registration places an unnecessary burden on industry which will tend to hit hardest those least able to cope—small businesses—and may be bureaucratic and create a barrier to competition.
  Rev. Martin Smyth: I appreciate the tribute that the Minister paid to the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire) about his honourary membership of the Institute of Plumbing. If something went wrong with the plumbing in the Palace of Westminster, would the Minister turn to the hon. Member for Hornchurch or to my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Forsythe), who is a master plumber?
  Mr. Yeo: Armed with that additional information, I have no doubt that it will relieve my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch if I give an unqualified assurance that, should the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Forsythe) be available, we shall look to him.
  Those responsible for maintaining the Palace of Westminster—I hope that I am not making a claim that cannot be sustained—take great care to select reputable, qualified and well-trained plumbers to undertake any necessary work.
  The circumstances in which the Government believe that statutory registration is justified are when health and safety considerations are of overwhelming importance. The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations, which came into effect last month, provide

  749
  for a statutory registration scheme for gas installers. In that case, the Government considered that exceptional reasons justified the introduction of such a scheme.
  Clearly, the installation of gas is potentially extremely dangerous. Evidence shows that a disproportionate number of gas accidents were attributable to the work of gas installers who were not registered with the voluntary scheme run by the Confederation for the Registration of Gas Installers. No such equivalent evidence is available for the plumbing industry.
  We believe that health and safety standards are adequately controlled through the building regulations and water byelaws. My Department recently consulted on proposals to amend the regulations relating to unvented hot water systems. One proposal would require such systems to be installed by competent persons who have undergone appropriate training. The proposal was considered necessary because of the potential for explosions if the systems, in particular the safety devices, are installed incorrectly. Those systems are still relatively new to the United Kingdom.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch made a specific point on the notification of unvented hot water systems under the water byelaws. The legislation does not require their installation to be notified and, therefore, it would not be appropriate to include guidance on this matter under the building regulations.
  My hon. Friend is correct that, in the past, the number of unvented system notifications made under the building regulations has been disappointing. My Department is considering ways of promoting a greater awareness of the need to notify the building control authorities of installation of those systems. We shall shortly publish a free booklet on the building control system in England and Wales drawing attention to that. The manufacturers of these systems also have a role to play and we shall encourage them to include information on notification in their packaging.
  For many years, the Building Research Establishment has carried out research into improving the performance of plumbing systems. Its research has provided a major input into both the development of the building regulations and British standards.
  Protection of public health has long been ensured by the water byelaws which control the fittings and installations on customers' premises up to the point where water is drawn off. All water companies have made new byelaws based on a model prepared by my Department in 1986. The latest byelaws incorporated further measures to safeguard public health and safety. They took into account recommendations in the report of the Committee on Backsiphonage in Water Installations. Those were intended to prevent the contamination of water and to protect water from backflow and backsiphonage in mains and all types of connected water services. They also included more stringent requirements for cold water storage cisterns and WC flushing apparatus.
  Generally, plumbing work in new premises and major extensions is carried out by building contractors or specialist plumbing firms. For the most part, such work is done by competent plumbers, many of whom may be registered with the Institute of Plumbing, which produces work that conforms with the byelaws. Indeed, many water
  750
  companies recognise the competence of certain installers and accept certificates as evidence of compliance with byelaws.
  I accept, however, that the large amount of renovation, alteration and maintenance of domestic water supply installations can create problems, because much of this work is carried out by householders themselves or by non-specialist people with little or no knowledge of the byelaws.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch quoted the large number of byelaw infringements discovered through a comprehensive survey of properties in the area of the South Staffordshire water company. He suggests that it is representative of the problem in other parts of the country. Water companies are under a duty to provide an adequate and wholesome supply of water. If a company fails to meet the statutory requirements, the drinking water inspectorate may take enforcement action. The serious infringements in the South Staffordshire area occurred mainly in industrial and commercial premises. The risk of water contamination and backsiphonage, particularly from industrial processes, is clearly higher in those premises, and water companies should therefore be particularly vigilant about carrying out inspections of those premises.
  One matter of special concern to my hon. Friend is training.
  Mr. Neil Thorne: We seem to be concentrating on the supply of water to premises, but plumbers also deal with the disposal of water after it has been used. The largest park in my constituency, Valentine's park contains Valentine's mansion, from which a cutting was given to Hampton court for its vine. The park has a large, impressive lake. When I was a child I used to be able to paddle in the stream that fed that lake. That stream has now been cut off from the public and fenced round because too many false connections have been made to the surface water drainage system, which now takes foul water into the lake. That is totally unacceptable. Is my hon. Friend the Minister certain that the Government attach enough importance to ensuring that only qualified people have the right to connect up to both the water supply and water disposal systems?
  Mr. Yeo: My hon. Friend raises an important matter, but I hope that the general thrust of my remarks will assure him that the Government attach sufficient importance to the need for well-qualified and well-trained plumbers to carry out those important tasks.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch will be interested to know that over the past three years some 1,500 water industry employees have undergone one-week training courses; 150 plumbing teachers from technical colleges have also been given training on water byelaws and 1,000 employees from the public and private sector have attended overview courses.
  My hon. Friend asked about the number of byelaw inspections, the incidence of backflow contamination, health problems associated with water quality in buildings and byelaw enforcement. I am sorry to say that such information is not available centrally and cannot be provided in a form that relates solely to water byelaws. He also mentioned that the water industry is reviewing the future of water byelaws. My Department provides an observer to the committee that has been established for

  751
  that purpose. The Government will be interested in the committee's findings and conclusions. However, until they are available, it would be inappropriate for the Government to promote an investigation.
  My hon. Friend mentioned the implications of European Community legislation. The Water Act 1989 made provision for water byelaws to be replaced in due course by national regulations. Those arrangements are having to be reviewed in the light of developments in the EC. One vital function of the present United Kingdom water byelaws is to prevent waste and undue consumption of water. The importance of conserving our supplies has been emphasised by our recent experiences of successive years of drought. I hope that that matter will be given its proper weight in Community legislation. The European committee for standardisation covers not only the European Community but the European Free Trade Area as well. The successful harmonisation of product standards across 18 diverse states is difficult.
  It has been contended that the lack of a statutory registration scheme in this country places United Kingdom plumbers at a disadvantage when seeking work in other European Community countries. I do not agree. I am in favour of measures to bring down the bureaucratic barriers to the movement of labour throughout the European Community. It would be inappropriate for the United Kingdom to erect barriers of our own.
  Of course, I would not argue with my hon. Friend that plumbing work should be carried out by competent plumbers with the necessary qualifications and that the
  752
  public should be able to identify those plumbers easily. As I mentioned, the Office of Fair Trading is working closely with the industry to improve such recognition.
  Self-regulation by the industry is the key. The Institute of Plumbing has maintained a voluntary register of plumbers since 1886, which I commend. The 11,000 plumbers on the register today must be appropriately qualified and undertake, at all times, to uphold the dignity and reputation of the craft of plumbing and safeguard the public interest in matters of health and safety.
  I believe that the best route to higher standards is through the marketplace. I want a consumer-driven process, under which well-informed customers demand well-qualified plumbers to carry out good-quality work for everyone's benefit, so that the customer has a choice. If the consumer is not prepared to pay a little extra for some assurance of quality and standards, no amount of regulation imposed by the Government will force him or her to do so. Additional regulation measures would face some of the enforcement problems to which my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch referred. I am convinced that the industry would not gain further freedom of movement in the EC by introducing statutory registration in the United Kingdom. The Government and the water industry are ensuring the continued protection of public health and safety through the water byelaws and building regulations. It is far better that we should do so in a free and open market.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at four minutes past Three o'clock.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Research Bodies
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many publicly funded research centres or institutes are planned to(a) close, (b) merge and (c) open in the next five years.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  This information is not available. Publicly funded research establishments vary from small units in higher education institutions to large institutes on a number of sites, and are run by a range of bodies including the research councils and universities.

  Nuclear Structure Facility
  Sir Thomas Arnold
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received since 8 February about the decision of the SERC to close the nuclear structure facility, Daresbury; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  Since 8 February, my right hon. and learned Friend and I have received 350 representations about the nuclear structure facility at the SERC's Daresbury laboratory.

  Teacher Grading
  Mrs. Mahon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many(a) men and (b) women teachers are on grades A, B, C, D and E allowances for each local education authority in England currently and for the last five years that figures are available for (i) primary and (ii) secondary schools.

  Mr. Fallon
  [holding answer 18 April 1991]: I am arranging to place in the Library a copy of the relevant tables for March 1988, the first year following the introduction of incentive allowances in October 1987. Corresponding information for later years is not yet available.

  Head Teachers
  Mrs. Mahon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many(a) men and (b) women head teachers and deputy head teachers are in place for each local education authority in England now and for the last five years that figures are available for (i) primary and (ii) secondary schools.

  Mr. Fallon
  [holding answer 18 April 1991]: I am arranging to place in the Library a copy of the relevant tables for the years 1986 to 1988. Comparable figures for other years are not readily available.

  Student Awards
  Mr. Anthony Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what parental contributions will be payable towards mandatory student awards in the academic year 1991–92.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  [pursuant to his reply, 28 February 1991, col. 554]: I regret that the illustrative parental contribution scales which accompanied my previous reply contained some minor arithmetical errors. These errors would not have affected the assessments to be made in the summer by local education authorities, which will be based on the formulae quoted at the end of my previous reply. The formulae remain correct and will generally still keep the assessed contribution for 1991–92 at the same cash level as in 1990–91, as intended for a parent whose residual income has risen in line with average earnings.

  For the avoidance of doubt, the corrected illustrative scales are shown below.

  Illustrative parental contribution scales for 1991–92

  Residual income £

  Scale 1 contribution £

  Scale 2 contribution £

  12,650

  60

  45

  13,000

  105

  79

  14,000

  235

  176

  15,000

  365

  274

  16,000

  495

  371

  16,170

  517

  388

  17,000

  667

  501

  18,000

  849

  638

  19,000

  1,031

  775

  20,000

  1,213

  912

  21,000

  1,395

  1,049

  22,000

  1,577

  1,186

  23,000

  1,758

  1,323

  23,760

  1,897

  1,427

  24,000

  1,951

  1,468

  25,000

  2,178

  1,638

  26,000

  2,406

  1,809

  27,000

  2,633

  1,980

  28,000

  2,860

  2,151

  29,000

  3,087

  2,322

  30,000

  3,315

  2,493

  31,000

  3,542

  2,664

  32,000

  3,769

  2,835

  33,000

  3,997

  3,006

  34,000

  4,224

  3,177

  35,000

  4,451

  3,348

  36,000

  4,678

  3,519

  37,000

  4,906

  3,690

  38,000

  5,133

  3,861

  39,000

  5,360

  4,032

  40,000

  5,587

  4,203

  40,934

  5,800

  —

  41,000

  —

  4,374

  42,000

  —

  4,544

  43,000

  —

  4,715

  44,000

  —

  4,886

  45,000

  —

  5,057

  46,000

  —

  5,228

  47,000

  —

  5,399

  48,000

  —

  5,570

  49,000

  —

  5,741

  49,343

  —

  5,800

ENVIRONMENT

  New Palace Yard (Lamps)
  Mr. Harris
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment why the gas lamps in New Palace Yard have been converted to electricity.

  Mr. Yeo
  The gas lamps in New Palace Yard have been temporarily replaced by electric lamps following the discovery of damage to the mains supply. As substantial excavation work will be required to lay a new main, the work has been deferred to the summer recess to minimise disruption. It is expected that the gas lamps will be back in use in September.

  Community Charge (Lambeth)
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how much community charge has now been paid for the financial year ended 31 March in Lambeth.

  Mr. Key
  Local authorities are currently sending returns to my Department giving their community charge receipts up to 31 March 1991; no return has yet been received from Lambeth. To 31 December 1990 Lambeth had collected £24·3 million.

  Rhododendrons
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress has been made in his Department in limiting the spread of rhododendrons as a threat to woodlands and wild landscapes.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Department has not carried out specific work on this subject, but the Forestry Commission is continuing research into methods of controlling rhododendron, and results are promising. Bulletin 73, Field Book 8 and Research Information Note 186, issued by the Commission, provide more detailed information about control on forest sites. I am arranging for a copy of each document to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Advice Services
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment to what extent local authorities are making use of section 38 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Portillo
  The Department has no information on the extent to which local authorities are using this new power to help advice and assistance agencies.

  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has issued any advice to local authorities on section 38 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989.

  Mr. Portillo
  A joint circular (Department of the Environment 23/90; Welsh Office 62/90) explained the impact of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 on parish, community and town councils. This drew attention to the new power for these authorities under section 38 to help advice and assistance agencies. Similar action seemed unnecessary for principal councils.

  Housing Corporation Expenditure
  Mr. Devlin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how much money has been spent by the Housing Corporation in(a) Stockton, (b) Middlesbrough and (c) Hartlepool; and how many dwellings have been improved or created in each of the last four years.

  Mr. Yeo
  This is a matter for the Housing Corporation. I have therefore asked the corporation to respond to my hon. Friend direct. The subsequent reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House.

  Opencast Mining
  Mr. Canavan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will list all those areas in England and Wales for which planning permission has been granted for opencast mining.

  Mr. Yeo
  Information on the areas in England and Wales where planning permission has been granted for opencast mining is not held centrally. According to statistics published by the County Planning Officers Society 41 sites in England and Wales received approval in 1989–90 (including on appeal) as follows:

  Number

  Durham

  10

  Northumberland

  1

  Tyne and Wear

  1

  Cumbria

  1

  Leicestershire

  2

  Staffordshire

  1

  Shropshire

  4

  West Midlands

  2

  Derbyshire

  6

  South Yorkshire

  3

  West Yorkshire

  3

  Merseyside

  3

  Mid Glamorgan

  2

  West Glamorgan

  2

  Gwent

  1

  Rose Theatre Trust
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to the Rose Theatre Trust to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Sir George Young
  I understand that, under procedures agreed by the Services Committee, arrangements have been made with the authorities of the House for the exhibition to be held in the Upper Waiting Hall from 3 June to 7 June.

TRANSPORT

  Railway Property (Child Trespassers)
  Mr. Churchill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many children have been(a) killed and (b) seriously injured in each of the past 10 years for which figures are available in consequence of electrocution or being struck by a train while trespassing on railway property.

  Mr. Freeman
  Figures for the period 1980–89 are given in the table; 1989 is the latest year for which figures are available.
  267

  Electrocution

  Struck by trains

  Year

  Fatal

  Seriously injured

  Fatal

  Seriously injured

  1980

  7

  9

  6

  1

  1981

  10

  10

  8

  2

  1982

  3

  13

  4

  2

  1983

  5

  18

  9

  3

  1984

  10

  17

  6

  4

  1985

  3

  14

  9

  3

  1986

  6

  12

  4

  5

  1987

  6

  6

  9

  5

  1988

  4

  6

  12

  7

  1989

  3

  8

  5

  2

SCOTLAND

  Local Authority Spending
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of Stale for Scotland how much is spent by each local authority per person on(a) the mentally ill and (b) the elderly.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Information for the elderly derived from the local authority financial returns is set out in the table. It is not possible to provide meaningful information for the mentally ill since the expenditure is not always separately identified.

  Local authority expenditure per head on the elderly: 1988–89

  Region

  Elderly £

  Borders

  37·0

  Central

  33·5

  Dumfries and Galloway

  28·1

  Fife

  41·7

  Grampian

  32·2

  Highland

  31·1

  Lothian

  34·6

  Strathclyde

  37·1

  Tayside

  40·7

  Orkney

  68·2

  Shetland

  78·0

  Western Isles

  94·1

  Note: This expenditure information relates to services paid for by social work authorities and used in the main by the elderly. It does not include administration and casework expenditure by these authorities in relation to the elderly since that is difficult to identify. Expenditure by housing authorities on services of benefit to the elderly is not included.

  Cancer
  Mr. Canavan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will list for each year from 1986 onwards the number of cancer-related deaths in(a) Scotland, (b) Forth Valley health board area, (c) Falkirk district, (d) the postal district FK4, (e) the postal district FK5 and (f) the postal district FK6.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The number of deaths attributed to cancer (ICD* numbers 140–208) as the underlying cause of death is shown in the table.

  Deaths from malignant neoplasms, 1986–89

  Area

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  Scotland

  14,534

  14,650

  14,720

  14,917

  Forth Valley health board

  784

  765

  803

  721

  Falkirk local government district

  412

  407

  420

  397

  Postal district: FK4

  32

  42

  24

  27

  268

  Area

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  FK5

  50

  44

  43

  41

  FK6

  33

  23

  32

  31

  * International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision.

  Place of Safety Orders (Orkney)
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will hold an inquiry into the events surrounding the place of stafety orders recently taken in respect of nine children in Orkney.

  Mr. Lang
  Once the legal proceedings in relation to this case are completed, it is my intention to hold a full judicial inquiry. At that stage I will make an announcement about the terms of reference and who will lead it.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Kurdish Refugees
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list all United Kingdom emergency relief for refugees from Iraq; from which ODA budget the aid is paid; and whether the ODA's budget for 1991–92 has been increased to cover the cost of emergency aid for Iraqi refugees.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Total commitments for relief operations for refugees from Iraq in 1990–91 are estimated at £18·37 million. £3·25 million has been paid from the ODA's humanitarian aid subhead A3(9), and £2·5 million for ICRC from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office vote, clases II, vote 5. The remainder is our estimated share of EC budgetary expenditure and will be attributed to the aid programme in the usual way. The £18·37 million was allocated as follows:

  August 1990:—£2 million to the International Organisation for Migration.

  August 1990:—£0·5 million to the International Committee of the Red Cross and Jordanian Red Crescent.

  August 1990:—£0·25 million relief supplies from the United Kingdom.

  August 1990:—£8·25 million through the European Community

  January 1991:—US$1 million to United Nations Disaster Relief Organisation.

  February 1991:—£2·5 million to International Committee of the Red Cross Gulf Appeal

  January-March 1991:—£4·37 million through the European Community.

  Commitments so far in this financial year total £21·65 million, excluding the cost of RAF airdrops and airlift operations.

  Specific allocations are:

  April 1991—£0·5 million to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

  April 1991—£336,000 for relief supply flights to Turkey on 5 April.

  April 1991—£350,000 for relief supply nights to Iran on 9 April and 10 April.

  269

  April 1991—£30,000 grants each to Save the Children Fund and CARE (UK) for food purchases via the Turkish Red Crescent Society.

  April 1991—£50,000 grant to OXFAM for relief supply flights.

  April 1991—£650,000 through the European Community.

  Our initial assistance of over £1 million in April 1991 is being met from funds earmarked for disaster relief in the ODA's contingency reserve, provision for which is in subhead A3(7). Of the £20 million announced by the Prime Minister on 5 April, £8 million is being drawn from the aid programme contingency reserve. The balance of £12 million is our estimated share of EC budgetary expenditure and will be attributed to the aid programme.

  The United Kingdom is also providing daily relief supply flights to Turkey. Supplies are being distributed by Hercules aircraft and Chinook helicopters based at Dyarbakir. The costs of these airlift and helicopter operations are estimated at £1·5 million per week. Two further relief supply flights will leave for Iran on 18 April and 19 April. More will follow. The costs of these operations are also being met from the aid programme contingency reserve.

  ODA's budget for 1991–92 has not been increased further to meet the costs of these relief operations. But, as I made clear to the Foreign Affairs Committee on 17 April, the Government will look sympathetically at the case for extra money.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Children
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what provision is made for the welfare and care of children in(a) the United Kingdom, (b) Belgium, (c) Denmark, (d) Luxembourg, (e) the Netherlands, (f) Germany and (g) France.

  Mr. Jack
  This Department makes provision for the welfare and care of children to the extent that it provides cash benefits to families with children, principally through the child benefit, family credit and income support schemes.

  Tables giving details of child benefit and equivalent schemes in the countries listed by the hon. Member, as at 1 July 1990, are set out in "Social Protection in the Member States of the Community", published by the Commission for the European Communities, a copy of which is in the Library. The current publication does not cover income-related benefits such as family credit (a benefit which has no direct equivalent in the other countries) but the United Kingdom has proposed to the Commission that next year and in following years the tables should be extended to cover these benefits. Until this can be done a systematic comparison of this type of benefit is not possible.

  Disability Benefit
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will conduct a comprehensive review of disability benefits arising from the OPCS surveys on disabilities; and if he will make a statement.
  270
  Mr. Scott
  The reports produced by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys provided us with an unprecedented volume of information about the financial circumstances of people with disabilities. We invited and received comments on these reports from large numbers of organisations and took their views into account before publishing our proposals in "The Way Ahead" (Cm. 917). We have since invited further comments on the documents we published last year outlining our more detailed proposals for both the new benefits. We received more than 70 replies.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list those organisations which have made representations to him requesting that the disability living allowance be available to those who become disabled after the age of 85 years; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Scott
  No such representations have been received.

  Social Fund
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the amount spent on the social fund relative to the amount paid in single payments for the last year in which the single payment scheme operated, expressed in comparable prices and as a percentage reduction.

  Mr. Scott
  Direct comparisons between single payments expenditure in 1987–88 and social fund expenditure in 1990–91 are misleading because of the differing scope of the two schemes. Funeral and maternity payments were not part of the single payments scheme in 1987–88 but have been included in the table in order to make the comparison with social fund expenditure in 1990–91 more meaningful.

  Cash £ million

  At 1990–91 prices £ million

  Single payments

  1987–88

  1243

  2299

  Social fund

  1990–913

  —

  282 5½ per cent. reduction

  1 Includes £29 million spent on maternity and funeral payments.

  2 Calculated using the estimated gross domestic product deflator.

  3 Provisional.

PRIME MINISTER

  Computers
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Prime Minister what steps are being taken to ensure that no Government Department makes use of any pirated copies of Inslaw case-tracking Promis software.

  The Prime Minister
  All Government Departments operate their information technology systems within the law. To reinforce this, Departments have issued internal notices warning of the consequences of using unlicensed software.

  Iraq
  Mr. Winnick
  To ask the Prime Minister what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards ensuring that the leaders of the regime in Iraq are tried for crimes against humanity; and if he will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  Saddam Hussein bears personal responsibility under international law for his crimes and is responsible for those of his subordinates acting under his orders. In the case of both war crimes and genocide Saddam Hussein can, in law, be brought to trial before a national court or international tribunal. We and our EC partners have asked the United Nations Secretary-General to investigate how this might be achieved.

  Interception Commissioner
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Prime Minister when the Commissioner appointed under the Interception of Communications Act 1985 will present his annual report; and if he will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  A copy of Lord Justice Lloyd's fifth annual report for 1990 has been laid before the House today in accordance with section 8(7) of the Interception of Communications Act 1985. The confidential appendix to the report has been excluded from that copy in accordance with section 8(8) of the 1985 Act. I am grateful to the Commissioner for his work in reviewing the issue of warrants and note that he remains satisfied that the Secretaries of State continue to exercise scrupulous care in the issue of warrants. Careful consideration is being given to both parts of the Commissioner's report.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Alphachloralose
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food under what circumstances Alphachloralose can be used as a rodenticide.

  Mr. Maclean
  As from 1 March, Alphachloralose may be used as a rodenticide only when contained in a product approved under the Control of Pesticide Regulations for that purpose, of which there are currently seven. Use of these is governed by specified conditions which must be listed on labels, and which include the restriction that they are for use only as rodenticides.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Single Market
  Mr. William Powell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will list in the Official Report the short title of each of the European Community directives to implement the single market which should be on the statute book of each of the European Community member states; and what progress each such state had made by 31 December 1990 to enact into their domestic law such legislation.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The latest information giving a detailed breakdown of the situation on implementation of the individual measures in the Commission White Paper 272
  programme which were due to enter into force by the end of 1990 are given in annex 1 to document 9258/90 dated 5 October 1990, a copy of which is deposited in the Library. This confirms the United Kingdom's good record with only 18 out of 107 measures not implemented. A comparative table for all member states, together with more recent figures provided by the Commission are given in the table.

  Unimplemented measures1

  Unofficial assessment2

  Denmark

  15

  20

  United Kingdom

  18

  28

  Germany (F.R.)

  20

  32

  Portugal

  20

  31

  Spain

  27

  38

  France

  28

  38

  Ireland

  31

  43

  Belgium

  32

  37

  Netherlands

  33

  35

  Luxembourg

  35

  46

  Greece

  44

  44

  Italy

  62

  73

  1 Figures for unimplemented measures in the 5 zoctober 1990 report; out of 107 provisions required to have been transposed by 31 December 1990.

  2 Latest commission unofficial assessment (dated 9 March) of measures not implemented: out of 120 individual provisions required to have been transposed by that date.

  Somalia (Tobacco Imports)
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how much of the £3,436,000 beverages and tobacco exports to Somalia in 1990 was tobacco.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The information requested is published in Business Monitor MM20 Overseas Trade Statistics of the United Kingdom for December 1990, table v, page 17, a copy of which is in the Library.

  Sheffield Forgemaster
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what information he has on the chemical specification of the steel ordered for the manufacture by Sheffield Forgemaster of the so-called super gun.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 18 April 1991]; I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on 12 December 1990 at cols. 412–13.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  Petroleum Duty
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what information he has on European Commission proposals for minimum rates and target rates of petrol duty.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  The European Commission proposed minimum rates for mineral oils, including leaded and unleaded petrol, in December 1989. An explanatory memorandum on this proposal was submitted on 19 February 1990 (document 9777/89 COM (89) 526 final).

  On 19 February 1991 the Commission issued a further duty rates proposal (document 4822/91 COM (91) 43 final) which, for leaded and unleaded petrol, complemented the

  273
  1989 proposals by setting target rates. An explanatory memorandum on the proposal was submitted on 17 April 1991.

  Copies of the explanatory memoranda are in the Library.

  Value Added Tax
  Mr. Bellott
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to ensure that second-hand goods retain zero rate of value added tax; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  The only zero rate of value added tax on goods solely because they are second-hand applies to donated goods sold by charity shops. There are, however, special schemes for accounting for tax on some second-hand goods. I have no plans to change either system.

  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what rate of value added tax is payable on work done or services provided in the period up to 31 March 1991.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  Traders are entitled to charge the old rate (15 per cent.) on goods or services supplied up to 31 March. This applies even where a tax invoice is issued after that date in respect of such goods and services. Normally, this would create a tax point at the new rate, but the law includes a concession which allows traders to apply the old rate.

  Baby Yarns
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will zero-rate baby yarns for the purpose of VAT.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  No. Although under the EC VAT sixth directive member states are able to retain zero rates which were in force on 31 December 1975, subject to their being for clearly defined social reasons and for the benefit of the final consumer, they may neither widen the scope of existing zero rates nor introduce new ones.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Cats and Dogs (Experimentation)
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what action is taken to ensure that the cats and dogs supplied by suppliers given temporary licences under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 to supply non purpose-bred cats and dogs to designated establishments are not strays or were not originally stolen;

  (2) on what grounds temporary suppliers' licences are granted under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 to suppliers of non purpose-bred dogs, including ex-racing greyhounds.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Certificates of designation issued under secton 7 of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 to breeding and supplying establishments are not granted on a temporary basis. Exemptions may be granted to the standard condition applying to such certificates, which requires that animals must be obtained from designated breeding and supplying establishments. Breeding estab-lishments have been granted exemptions to obtain dogs from non-designated sources only for use as breeding stock.
  274
  Exemptions may also be granted to the requirement in section 10(3) of the Act applying to project licences that only those cats and dogs specially bred at and obtained from designated sources may be used in scientific procedures. No exemptions have been granted to allow the use of cats obtained from non-designated sources at designated user establishments.

  Where there is a shortage of certain types of purpose-bred dogs for use in research, it is necessary to grant some exemptions. Care is taken to ensure that greyhounds obtained from non-designated sources are neither pets nor ex-racing greyhounds which have been supplied to charitable bodies as pets.

  The conditions applied to licences and certificates ensure that stray or stolen cats or dogs cannot be legitimately supplied for use in regulated procedures.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will identify the National Greyhound Racing Club licensed trainer who has been licensed to supply ex-racing greyhounds to the Royal Postgraduate Medical School for use in animal procedures:

  (2) if he will identify all sources of greyhounds and other dogs supplied to the Royal Postgraduate Medical School for use in animal procedures.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  No certificate of designation has been granted under section 7 of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 for the supply of ex-racing greyhounds to the Royal Postgraduate Medical School for use in scientific procedures. Exemptions have been granted at the Royal Postgraduate Medical School to obtain a limited number of greyhounds from non-designated sources for a limited period.

  It is not our practice to give details of the sources of animals supplied for use in scientific procedures. The RPMS intends to use specially bred greyhounds which are expected to become available during the summer. In the meantime, we understand that the RPMS has agreed with the NGRC not to use greyhounds which have raced on licensed tracks.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many suppliers to establishments licensed to carry out procedures under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 are licensed to supply non purpose-bred cats and dogs; what numbers of such animals were supplied to British laboratories last year; and if he will publish details in the annual statistics of scientific procedures on living animals.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Exemptions for project licence-holders to acquire dogs from non-designated suppliers have been granted in only a very small number of cases. No exemptions have been granted for cats.

  Statistics on the total number of animals supplied are not available centrally and there are no plans to collect them for publication in the annual Statistics of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many inspections of suppliers given temporary licences under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 to supply non purpose-bred cats and dogs to designated establishments are made each year by the Home Office inspectorate.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Inspectors have powers to inspect only designated establishments. Exemptions have been granted
  275
  to enable project licence-holders at scientific procedure establishments to obtain animals from non-designated sources. If questions were to arise about the health or quality of the animals, exemptions would not be granted or would be withdrawn.

  Police Operations
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people have been killed in police pursuits(a) excluding and (b) including police officers in each of the last five years in England and Wales, respectively.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The available information for 1987, 1988, 1989 and 1990 is contained in the reports of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary for those years, copies of which are in the Library. This information was not recorded centrally in 1986 and earlier years and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

WALES

  Drinking Water (Lead Pollution)
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the number of houses in Wales that have drinking water containing lead levels above those permitted by EC standards; and if he will indicate the location of those properties.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information requested is not centrally available.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the number of houses in Wales that would be required to remove lead plumbing if the permitted level of lead in drinking water is changed from 0·05 mg per litre to 0·01 mg per litre.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  This information is not available centrally.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what information is held by his Department on the number of houses in Wales having lead plumbing.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The Welsh House Condition Survey for 1981 estimated that 188,400 houses in Wales had lead plumbing.

  Public Registers
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish all those locations in Wales where the public can examine the public registers held by(a) the National Rivers Authority and (b) the Welsh Water Company.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The locations are as follows:

  (a) Caernarfon, Cardiff, Haverfordwest, Lampeter, Mold, Monmouth, Swansea.

  (b) Aberaeron, Bangor, Brecon, Haverfordwest, Mold, Nelson, Swansea.

  Contaminated Land
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the cost of decontaminating all contaminated land in Wales.
  276
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  This information is not available.

  Hospital Closures
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what discussions he has had with the chairman of the South Glamorgan health authority concerning the completion of treatment as in-patients for those presently undergoing treatment at the children's ward, Prince of Wales orthopaedic hospital, Rhydlafar, near Cardiff, on or shortly after its announced closure date of 30 April;

  (2) if he will issue guidelines to health authorities to which he has granted consent to close wards or hospitals not to implement those closures until the in-patients in situ have completed their in-patient treatment.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  As the implementation of approved service changes is a matter for health authorities, I have not discussed the timing of the transfer of the children's orthopaedic service in South Glamorgan with the chairman of the district health authority. Nor do I have plans to issue any general guidance on this particular aspect of service planning.

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action he proposes to take to alleviate short-term cash flow difficulties experienced by local authorities in Wales as a result of the Community Charges (General Reduction) Act 1991.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I announced on 19 March my intention to pay community charge grant to Welsh local authorities in accordance with the Community Charges (General Reduction) Act 1991. Parliamentary approval of this new expenditure will be sought in a supplementary estimate on the rate rebates, Wales vote, class XVI, vote 11.

  Pending that approval, urgent expenditure is being met by repayable advances from the Contingencies Fund. An advance of £45 million has already been made to cover

DEFENCE

  Aldermaston
  Mr. Boyes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the welding fault problems in the A90 and A91 buildings at Aldermaston.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The work to rectify problems associated with welds in A90 was completed in April 1990. Further details may be found in the evidence given by my Department to the Select Committee on Defence and published in the reports "The progress of the Trident Programme", 5th of Session 1988–89 and 9th of Session 1989–90 (HC 374 and HC 237). During the commissioning of the A91 facility a different problem has been identified associated with corrosion in pipework and vessels. The problem is being investigated and solutions identified.

  Mr. Boyes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if the A90 building is to be closed either fully or partially; and what will happen to staff at Aldermaston.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  No. The problem associated with corrosion in pipework and vessels is in the A91 facility and
  277
  not A90. As a result the training schedules of a small number of the future operators of A91 are being revised whilst the problem is investigated.

  Mr. Boyes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if the present problems at Aldermaston will affect the timetable for the Trident warhead production.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  We do not expect any adverse effect on the Trident warhead production programme.

  Mr. Boyes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what will be the cost of rectifying the problems on the A90 and A91 buildings at Aldermaston.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The work to rectify the problems in A90 was completed in April 1990. It is not the practice to disclose details of individual contract costs for reasons of commercial confidentiality. Further details may be found in the evidence given by my Department to the Select Committee on Defence and published in the reports "The progress of the Trident Programme", 5th of Session 1988–89 and 9th of Session 1989–90 (HC 374 and HC 237). The investigations into the problems with A91 are at an early stage and it is not yet possible to estimate the cost of any corrective action that may be necessary.

  Main Battle Tank
  Mr. Clelland
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Elmet (Mr. Batiste) of 19 March,Official Report column 90, if he is now in a position to say when he expects to announce which company has been chosen to provide main battle tanks to replace the Chieftain tank.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  I have nothing to add to the answer that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet (Mr. Batiste) on 19 March at column 90.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Immigration Appeals
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General what is the average time between(a) a request for a hearing date and (b) a hearing date being set for immigration appeals in Leeds.

  The Attorney-General
  The average time between a request for a hearing date and a hearing date being set for immigration appeals in Leeds is estimated to be five to six months.

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General what action is being taken to reduce delays in hearing immigration appeals in Leeds; and if he will make a statement.

  The Attorney-General
  The Lord Chancellor's Department is actively considering increasing the number of hearing rooms available at Coronet house, Leeds for hearing immigration appeals, and has since 1989 increased the number of staff and adjudicators at Leeds. It is also planned to establish a permanent centre in Scotland for processing Scottish immigration appeals which will reduce the workload and pressure at the Leeds centre, which currently processess Scottish appeals. The Lord Chancellor's Department is also keeping under review facilities and staffing levels at all hearing centres in light of the increasing number of appeals.
  278
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General what action is being taken to reduce delays in immigration appeal papers, received in London from British overseas posts, being forwarded to the representatives of the parties; and if he will make a statement.

  The Attorney-General
  The immigration appellate authorities have recently introduced streamlined procedures for the initial collation and dispatch of appeal papers received at Thanat house from posts overseas, and now aim to dispatch them to the parties representatives in this country within three weeks of their receipt. This is a significant improvement on the previous position of eight to 12 weeks.

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General when the appeal of Mr. Mohammed Ashraf (TH/13446190) against refusal to grant him entry clearance to the United Kingdom is to be heard in Leeds; when he first applied to enter the United Kingdom; when he was interviewed by the British high commission in Islamabad; when his appeal was received by the post; when his papers were received in London; when papers were sent to Mr. Ashraf's representative; and if he will make a statement.

  The Attorney-General
  The immigration appellate authorities (IAA) expect the appeal of Mr. Mohammed Ashraf to be heard in Leeds in September 1991. Mr. Ashraf applied to enter the United Kingdom on 28 November 1988, and was interviewed by the entry clearance officer at Islamabad on 14 December 1989 and 3 May 1990. The entry clearance officer refused Mr. Ashraf's application on 24 May 1990 and on 4 July 1990 the high commission at Islamabad received Mr. Ashraf's appeal. The IAA in London received Mr. Ashraf's appeal papers on 16 August 1990 and after collating them the IAA sent the case papers to Mr. Ashraf's representatives in this country on 13 November 1990. On 1 March 1991 Mr. Ashraf's representatives indicated to the IAA that they are ready to proceed to hearing.

  The delay in the listing of this case at Leeds is regrettable and the Lord Chancellor's Department is currently taking steps to increase the hearing room capacity of the Leeds centre in order to reduce delays there.

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General how many(a) staff and (b) adjudicators are retained in Leeds concerned with immigration appeals; and if he will give figures for the comparable period of the last three years.

  The Attorney-General
  The information requested is as follows:

  Adjudicators

  April

  Staff in post

  Full-time

  Part-time

  1988

  6

  1

  9

  1989

  6½

  1

  9

  1990

  6½

  1

  13

  1991

  8

  1

  13

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Attorney-General how many immigration appeals in Leeds were in the past three years, to date,(a) heard and (b) adjourned at the request of the parties or for other reasons; and what is the average delay between a hearing and determination being issued.
  279
  The Attorney-General
  The immigration appellate authorities (IAA) do not record details of the number of appeals adjourned.

  The number of immigration appeals heard in Leeds in the past three calendar years is as follows:

  Number

  1988

  1926

  1989

  1,513

  1990

  1,276

  1 The figure for 1988 includes cases heard in Scotland.

  Adjudicators at Leeds are on average able to prepare their determination within four weeks of the hearing. Thereafter, it takes on average two or three weeks for the determination to be typed and issued to the parties.

EMPLOYMENT

  Mining (Hazardous Substances)
  Mr. Cummings
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will bring forward legislation to enable the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 1988 to be applied to mining in deep mines; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  The Health and Safety Commission has made no proposals to my right hon. and learned Friend concerning the application of the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 1988 underground in mines. However, the Health and Safety Executive is currently reviewing mining legislation. In the course of the review it will consider whether it is now appropriate to apply these regulations below ground.

  Dock. Accidents
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many accidents were reported to the Health and Safety Executive in(a) Grimsby and Immingham docks, (b) Hull docks and (c) London docks in each year for 1979 and 1990 inclusive.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information is not readily available in the form requested and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  The following table shows the number of injuries occurring in the sea transport, port and inland water transport industries in (a) Grimsby and Immingham (b) Hull and (c) London reported to the Health and Safety Executive's factory and agricultural inspectorates between 1986/87 and 1989/90 (provisional) under the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1985.

  Number of Injuries

  Area

  11986–87

  11987–88

  11988–89

  1 51989–90

  Grimsby and Immingham2

  71

  60

  54

  39

  Hull3

  53

  57

  52

  34

  London4

  13

  16

  16

  9

  1Years beginning 1 April.

  2Grimsby and Cleethorpes Local Authority District.

  3Kingston-upon-Hull Local Authority District.

  4Greater London Local Authority District.

  5Provisional.

  Unit Labour Costs
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the percentage change in unit labour costs in(a) Britain and (b) Germany in the last 12 months.

  Mr. Jackson
  Unit wage costs in mining and manufacturing in the former Federal Republic of Germany rose by 1·9 per cent. in the year to the third quarter of 1990, which is the latest available information. In the same period unit wage costs in manufacturing in the United Kingdom rose by 9·3 per cent.

  Employment Training
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list the qualifications that were achieved by clients for each six-month period of employment training since its inception.

  Mr. Jackson
  The following table gives the percentage breakdown of the qualifications gained by trainees leaving employment training between July 1989 and September 1990.

  Employment training Breakdown of the qualifications gained by leavers between July 1989 to September 1990

  Qualification

  July 1989 to December 1989 (per cent.)

  January 1990 to June 1990 (per cent.)

  July 1990 to September 1990 (per cent.)

  City and Guilds

  39

  38

  37

  RSA

  28

  32

  30

  Pitmans

  12

  10

  10

  SCOTVEC

  11

  12

  11

  BTEC-TEC

  2

  2

  3

  GCSE

  2

  1

  2

  London Chamber of Commerce & Industry

  1

  2

  4

  Other

  20

  20

  21

  Note: Percentage totals add up to more than 100 per cent. because trainees may obtain more than one type of qualification.

  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what percentage of employment training trainees had employer placements in each month since the scheme's inception.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information is not available in the precise format requested.

  However, information is available quarterly as shown in the table.

  Employment training (Great Britain totals) Percentage of trainees on training placements with employers for each quarter September 1989 to September 1990

  Great Britain

  September 1989

  23

  December 1989

  24

  March 1990

  25

  June 1990

  27

  September 1990

  25

  Training and Enterprise Councils
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what matters he has discussed with the group of 10 TEC chairmen; and if he will make a statement.
  281
  Mr. Jackson
  I have discussed a number of issues relating to training and enterprise and the framework within which TECs operate with the group of 10 TEC chairmen. I find these meetings particularly useful as a way of hearing views directly from TEC chairmen.

  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many non-seconded staff are directly employed by TECs.

  Mr. Jackson
  As at 10 April 1991, 216 staff were employed by training and enterprise councils, in publicly funded posts. TECs are also able to employ other directly recruited staff using their own resources.

  Youth Training
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many young people under 18 years in the London borough of Newham who are not employed have not had a youth training opportunity offered to them.

  Mr. Jackson
  The London borough of Newham is part of the area covered by the London East training and enterprise council. LETEC has a clear contractual duty to ensure that every young person under 18 not in school or a job who is seeking YT entry should have the offer, and if necessary re-offers of a suitable training place. LETEC has approached the local careers service seeking further information on the position in Newham. LETEC and the Employment Department are jointly committed to maintaining the YT guarantee.

  Employment Service
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what percentage of unemployed claimants receive caseload treatment by the Employment Service.

  Mr. Jackson
  Questions on operational matters in the Employment Service executive agency are the responsibil-ity of Mike Fogden, the agency's chief executive, to whom I have referred this question for reply.

  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what percentage increase in funding the Employment Service has received to cope with increased unemployment.

  Mr. Jackson
  My right hon. and learned Friend announced on 20 March that the Employment Service was to receive £55 million in extra resources for 1991–92 to help unemployed people back to work. This represents an increase of some 8 per cent. in the Employment Service's running costs.

  Training Programmes (Expenditure)
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the level at 1991 prices of Government expenditure on special employment and training programmes in 1988–89.

  Mr. Jackson
  Government expenditure on special employment and training programmes in 1988–89 was £3,091·6 million at 1991–92 prices.

  Payment of Accounts
  Mr. Sillars
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what steps he has taken to assist the self-employed small business person to obtain timely payment of legitimate accounts rendered to large companies.

  Mr. Jackson
  Cash flow is a vital factor in the efficient running of all businesses, and any delays in obtaining payment for work done are particularly damaging for self-employed people and small businesses. It is vital that large companies recognise their responsibilities to small suppliers by settling accounts promptly.

  The Government are therefore taking action to strengthen their encouragement of the voluntary adoption of good payment practice and to foster closer co-operation betweeen buyers and sellers.

  As part of this initiative, my Department will shortly be issuing a revised booklet on credit management for small firms, and is sponsoring a new guide on good payment practice by the Institute of Credit Management which will be specifically aimed at larger companies. These publications will be widely distributed and publicised.

  The Government themselves are giving a further lead. Each of the major spending Departments will be monitoring its own payment performance this year, and the results will be published.

HEALTH

  Cholesterol
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he has any plans to launch a national education programme, similar to those in the United States, relating to consumer awareness of cholesterol levels;

  (2) what guidance his Department gives on the issue of whether, independently of lowering dietary fat intake, increased consumption of oat bran can reduce blood cholesterol; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) what information his Department holds on a causal link between high blood cholesterol levels and coronary heart disease;

  (4) if he has evaluated the relative cost-effectiveness of (a) treatment and (b) public health programmes designed to lower blood cholesterol.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Standing Medical Advisory Committee reported last year on the cost-effectiveness of opportunistic cholesterol testing, a copy of which is available in the Library. Annex I to the report details evidence from a large number of studies showing"a direct and consistent association between blood cholesterol levels and the incidence of coronary heart disease. This association has all the characteristics of a causal relationship".

  Because the committee identified divergent medical opinion in this area, it was decided to issue the report for widespread consultation. A large number of responses has been received and these are now being analysed. We expect to be in a position to reach conclusions on the findings soon.

  Recommendations in the report have implications for a national education programme. In considering the results of the consultation exercise we will have regard to the need for public education specifically about cholesterol levels.
  283
  The Government already give advice on healthy eating which encourages the adoption of a balanced overall diet. Oat bran, like any other food, can form part of a healthy diet. There is insufficient evidence at present to give specific advice about the role of oat bran in reducing blood cholesterol.

  Passive Smoking
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he has received the Health Education Authority's report on passive smoking; and what response he will make to its findings and recommendations.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We welcome the publication of this report.

  The Government have for some time publicised the dangers of passive smoking and encouraged the introduction of smoking policies in the workplace and in public places. By providing clear and up-to-date information, the booklet serves to keep the issue in the public eye and to maintain the progress which is being made.

  Adoption
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when the review of inter-country adoption will be published; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The first consultative document of the adoption law review, "The nature and effect of adoption—discussion paper No. 1", a copy of which is available in the Library, has been issued and the responses are being considered. Further consultative documents will follow including one on inter-country adoption.

  Issue of this paper has been deferred until after the meeting of the special commission of the Hague conference on private international law which begins on 22 April so that a preliminary report of the outcome of the meeting can be included in the law review paper and comments sought.

  Kidney Disease
  Mr. Ian Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the number of renal dialysis units and nephrologists within(a) Wessex regional health authority and (b) other regional health authorities within the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The table shows the number of NHS dialysis and transplant units and nephrologists employed by region in England, and the totals for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

  Region

  Number of Renal Dialysis/Transplant Units

  Number of Nephrologists (and Whole time equiv's)

  Wessex

  1

  7

  (6·6)

  Northern

  3

  22

  (19·1)

  Yorkshire

  3

  13

  (12·6)

  Trent

  5

  22

  (22·0)

  East Anglia

  4

  4

  (4·0)

  NW Thames

  6

  15

  (14·0)

  NE Thames

  7

  27

  (24·3)

  SE Thames

  6

  38

  (34·1)

  SW Thames

  2

  4

  (4·0)

  Oxford

  3

  11

  (9·6)

  South Western

  4

  12

  (11·0)

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  Region

  Number of Renal Dialysis/Transplant units

  Number of Nephrologists (and Whole time equiv's)

  West Midlands

  1

  6

  (4·9)

  Mersey

  5

  10

  (10·0)

  Northern Western

  5

  16

  (15·4)

  Wales

  5

  2

  (1·1)

  Scotland

  13

  17

  (17·0)

  Northern Ireland

  1

  11

  (11·0)

  Manpower figures include permanent paid and honorary staff.

  Mr. Ian Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the number of surviving renal transplant patients per million population within Wessex regional health authority; and what is the United Kingdom average per million.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Information is not available in the form requested. According to the latest information provided by the United Kingdom transplant support services, the patient survival rate one year after transplantation in 1987–88 was 88 per cent. for Wessex and 92 per cent. for the United Kingdom.

  This information is based on a follow-up study of 1,750 patients, including 74 in Wessex, receiving first cadaveric kidney transplants.

  Mr. Ian Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the demand for renal services within Wessex regional health authority; and what is the relative rate of treatment per million population for end-stage renal failure in Wessex and other regional health authorities within the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Dorrell
  No assessment specific to Wessex has been undertaken. The need for renal services will be reviewed as part of the purchasing process in 1991–92. These services have expanded steadily in Wessex over the last few years, and no patient whom consultants believe to require treatment has knowingly been turned away.

  According to information provided by the European Dialysis and Transplant Association, the number of new patients per million population accepted for treatment of end-stage renal failure during 1988, the last year for which complete data are available, by regional health authority is as follows:

  Region

  Treatment for end stage renal failure in 1988 (pmp)

  Wessex

  44·8

  Northern

  58·4

  Yorkshire

  44·2

  Trent

  49·1

  East Anglia

  65·0

  North West Thames

  49·7

  North East Thames

  61·1

  South East Thames

  76·1

  South West Thames

  23·3

  Oxford

  50·4

  South Western

  51·2

  West Midlands

  52·0

  Mersey

  34·6

  North Western

  83·8

  Wales

  66·4

  Scotland

  62·8

  Northern Ireland

  42·5

  British Fluoridation Society
  Mr. Butterfill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the benefit accruing from the annual grant made to the British Fluoridation Society.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The British Fluoridation Society receives a grant under section 64 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968 for its work in providing support by means of information, advice, materials and other assistance to regional health authorities considering the implementation of water fluoridation in their areas. We are satisfied that the grant represents good value for money.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Hostages
  Mr. Cummings
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on progress towards the release of John McCarthy, Terry Waite and other hostages held in the middle east.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We continue to make every effort in our contacts with the Iranian authorities, who we believe to have a decisive influence, to secure the release of the hostages. We have also contacted other countries, and the EC troika, to reinforce the point in their own dealings with Iran.

  Kuwait
  Mr. Cummings
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has received concerning abuses of human rights and rapes of Palestinian and Filipino women in Kuwait; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  None.

  Cyprus
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what information he has on the number of settlers going into northern Cyprus from Turkey in each of the last five years;

  (2) what discussions he has had with the Turkish Government as to their policy of allowing Turkish nationals to settle in northern Cyprus; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  There is no reliable information on the number of Turkish settlers in northern Cyprus.

  All parties to the intercommunal dispute are aware that this issue will have to be addressed in the context of the comprehensive, just and lasting settlement for which the UN Secretary-General is working, with our full support.

  Mr. Speed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has had discussions with the Government of Cyprus about the build-up of arms in that country.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  It is our long-standing policy to sell weapons neither to the Greek Cypriot National Guard nor to the Turkish Cypriot armed forces. The Cyprus 286
  Government are aware of our view that the continuation of arms purchases does not assist the UN Secretary-General's search for a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem.

  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the involved parties in Cyprus as to the rights of ownership of land and property in that country; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The issue of property and land ownership rights is a key element in the current efforts by the UN Secretary-General to resolve the intercommunal dispute in Cyprus. We have been in close touch with the parties to the dispute on this and other issues.

  Kurds
  Mr. John Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he intends to call for a middle east peace conference to discuss the creation of a national home for the Kurds.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have made clear our desire to see the political and human rights of the Kurdish people fully respected within existing international boundaries. It is evident from our discussions with Iraqi Kurdish leaders that they seek genuine autonomy within Iraq, not the creation of a separate Kurdish state.

  East Timor
  Mr. Cummings
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise at the United Nations Human Rights Commission the treatment of East Timorese citizens by the Indonesian Government; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  I can confirm that this matter was raised by the EC Presidency statement during the 47th session of the UN Human Rights Commission, which included a reference to the situation in East Timor.

  Mauritius
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many applications for entry into the United Kingdom have been refused by the British high commission in Mauritius in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The number of applications for entry into the United Kingdom refused by the high commission in Mauritius in each of the last five years is as follows:

  Year

  Total

  1986

  202

  1987

  237

  1988

  195

  1989

  183

  1990

  206

  South Atlantic (Oil Exploration)
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information he has of any interest shown in oil exploration in the south Atlantic.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  A number of seismic survey companies have shown interest over the years in carrying out oil exploration in the south Atlantic.

  Commonwealth
  Mr. Soames
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the aims and objectives of Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the Commonwealth.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Our aim is to maintain and foster the special relationship we share with Commonwealth partners. The Commonwealth can play an increasingly constructive and moderating role in world affairs. We hope that Commonwealth partners will work to strengthen the global trend towards pluralist democratic and accountable government.

  Nigel Bramble
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action he is taking or will be taking to assist Nigel Bramble, aged 14 years and severely handicapped, from the 13ritish dependency of Montserrat, to complete his schooling in the United Kingdom before returning with his mother to the dependency; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  Nigel Bramble is currently studying at a state school which has the facilities to cater for his special educational and medical needs. His mother has applied to regularise their immigration status. We have been in touch with the Home Office. Given the circumstances surrounding the case, they have given an assurance that we would not seek to remove Nigel Bramble and his mother from the United Kingdom. l have asked my officials to discuss this with officials of the Home Office, the Department of Education and the Department of Health.

  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if appropriate provision is available for Nigel Bramble, aged 14 years and severely handicapped, born in the British dependency of Montserrat, to complete his schooling in the dependency if he is forced to return there from the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  There is a school for children with special needs in Montserrat, which Nigel Bramble attended until June 1990. It is, however, the view of local and visiting British medical consultants that the school has nothing further to offer Nigel, given its limited resources.

  Dependent Territories
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action has been taken in regard to the United Nations convention on the rights of the child as it applies to educational provision in Britain's dependent territories; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  Neither the United Kingdom nor the Dependent Territories have yet ratified the convention.

  Brazil
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has(a) received and (b) made to the Brazilian Government in connection with human rights concerns regarding protection by federal police of rural workers facing death threats.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  We are in regular touch with the Brazilian authorities and with NGOs in UK regarding the human rights situation in Brazil. No specific representations have been made to the Brazilian Government on the circumstances of rural workers.

  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make representations to the Brazilian Government in connection with human rights concerns about federal police protection for Fr. Ricardo Figuera, Carlos Cabral Pereira, Sebastiao Vieira da Silva, Roberto Neto da Silva, Fr. Vardario Lopes Costa and Orlando Canuto Pereira, who are involved with representation of Rio Maria rural workers.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  Her Majesty's embassy in Brasilia is looking into the cases of those mentioned and I look forward to receiving their report.

  Hong Kong
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer,Official Report, column 112, of 15 April, if he will estimate the number of sharks represented by the import of 3,838 tonnes of shark fins into Hong Kong in 1990.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  It is difficult, if not impossible, to estimate the number of sharks represented by the weight of shark fins imported into Hong Kong in 1990 since

  (a) the imported fins are obtained from sharks of different species and different maturity; and

  (b) the fins vary widely in size and weight.

  Iraq
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what conditions Her Majesty's Government laid down prior to 15 April for Iraq's compliance with basic human rights law in dealing with the insurrection in the north and south; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We expect Iraq to live up to its international obligations under the Geneva conventions, the international convention on civil and political rights and the genocide convention. In addition, SCR 688, adopted on 5 April, demands that the Iraqi Government stop their repression of their own people.

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Worcester.

Crime Prevention Measures
Baroness Phillips Baroness Phillips asked Her Majesty's Government:
What new action is being taken to reduce crime.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, this week, we are holding the first ever national Crime Prevention Week, which will encourage the public to play a full part in crime prevention. We have launched the car theft index which shows car buyers, owners and manufacturers which cars are most subject to crime. The safer cities programme will be brought up to its full complement of 20 projects when four more come into operation later this year.
Baroness Phillips: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I have taken an active part in the Crime Prevention Week. What resources will be put into the various projects that are being set up —for example, the neighbourhood watch schemes and the business schemes? I understand that the advertising for the campaign has cost about £4 million so far. What extra resources will be devoted to employing more police?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, £4.5 million has been spent on Crime Prevention Week, of which £3.5 million is expenditure. The safer cities programme (which will be brought up to its full complement of 20 projects later this year) contains 1,300 schemes. That programme is supported by £7 million of Home Office money. Expenditure on the police has increased enormously by 67 per cent. in real terms over the past 12 years. Grants are available to local authorities for crime prevention work. Those grants total £17 million. A lot of money is being spent on crime prevention.
Lord Renton: My Lords, is the Criminal Justice Bill, which is now under consideration by your Lordships, intended to play a part in crime prevention, or not?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, that is a curious question from my noble friend. He knows full well that the Criminal Justice Bill deals on the whole with people who have offended. The whole basis of our approach to crime is that it is important for everyone to take part in crime prevention measures. Crime prevention cannot be left only to the police. It requires the co-operation of families, churches, schools, local authorities and voluntary organisations. The whole framework of the criminal justice system—that is a part of the Criminal Justice Bill—is designed not only to keep people out of prison where they may learn the tricks of the trade but also to deal correctly with those who have offended.
Lord Mulley: My Lords, I fully support the campaign to install more car alarms and also more alarms in houses. I speak as one who has been burgled twice in the past six months and who only last weekend lost the wheel covers of my car. However, what concerns me is that one can walk down almost any street in London and hear alarms ringing but no one takes a blind bit of notice. Therefore, I am not sure there is much point in encouraging people to install alarms unless something is going to be done as regards following up alarm signals.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I suppose that when alarms go off people tend to think they have gone off in error. However, it is important that people take preventive action against potential car thieves. Some 94 per cent. of all crimes are crimes against property. Of that figure, 27 per cent. are crimes against cars. That means either theft of cars or theft from cars. The latest British crime survey showed that 10 per cent. of those interviewed who had had cars stolen admitted they had not locked their cars. Similarly, a survey conducted by the Metropolitan Police revealed that 26 per cent. of domestic burglaries involved no forced entry. While we expect the police to do a lot in this area, individuals have the right and the duty to protect their own property as best they can.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, how does my noble friend reconcile that reply and the reply which he gave to my noble friend Lord Renton with Clause 23 of the Criminal Justice Bill?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, we were discussing that fascinating Bill until about 11 o'clock last night. Although Clause 23 of the Bill was firmly imprinted on my mind right through the evening, I have momentarily forgotten what that clause is about.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, is there any relationship between the increase in crime and the increase in unemployment?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, a short while ago some research was carried out by Dr. Simon Field, a Home Office researcher. The research indicated that crimes against property decrease and violent crime increases when personal consumption is falling. That provides some useful insights. However, in general, if the expectations of the potential offender for increased income and consumption are suddenly halted, he is more likely to resort to crime to meet his expectations.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I am glad to see that the noble Earl is in such good form this morning after such a late night. Can he say whether it is the Government's policy to see that more policemen are put back on the beat? If that is the Government's policy, what are they doing about it?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the first thing they are doing is providing another 1,100 policemen this year. The noble Lord referred to policemen on the beat, and that is important. When somebody calls the police to a murder, theft or burglary they do not get the policeman on the beat. It is important to have someone available to deal with trouble as it occurs. It

1657
is very much a matter for chief constables. That is why over the years we have encouraged civilianisation to the extent that between 1978–79 and 1990–91 the number of civilians has risen from 34,000 to 45,000, an increase of 33 per cent. That helps to put policemen on the beat.
Lord Richard: My Lords, of course I understand that whether or not policemen should be put on the beat is a matter for chief constables to decide. However, is it the Government's policy to encourage chief constables to take decisions in relation to their manning policies which will put policemen on the beat and make them more visible both to the general public and to potential criminals?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to encourage chief constables to use their resources in the best possible way to ensure that crime is dealt with. That inevitably means some people on the beat, some doing crime prevention work —and a lot of that is being done—and some manning the shop.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, following that question can the noble Earl say what is the situation regarding muggings in London? As I live quite near to my noble friend Lord Mulley I am alarmed to hear that he has been burgled twice in the past six months. I am beginning to shake a bit. The neighbourhood watch is doing a great deal to prevent burglaries in our area but muggings seem to be taking place just the same. What can be done and what is being done to reduce that danger in central London?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I forgot to express my sorrow to the noble Lord, Lord Mulley, that he had been burgled twice. I hope that it will not happen again. I do not believe that that piece of information need lead the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, to think that he was therefore going to be mugged. I do not believe that there is too much correlation between the two.
Six per cent. of all crime is violent crime. That percentage has remained astonishingly constant throughout the years. The best way one can hope to avoid muggings is for people to avoid carrying things with them where they are likely to be mugged and, as the noble Lord, Lord Richard, said, for there to be plenty of policemen on the beat.
Lord Peston: My Lords, I am slightly puzzled by the noble Earl's intriguing remarks about the relationship between the economy and crime. Did I understand him to say that the scale of crime did not vary with the state of the economy but that the nature of the crime did? I thought I heard him say that when we went into a recession crimes of violence increased —did I get that the right way round?—and that as consumption fell there would be more crimes of violence rather than fewer.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it was not my intriguing answer; it was the intriguing result of research work carried out by a certain Dr. Simon Field. The results of his study indicated that property crime comes down
1658
and violent crime goes up when personal consumption falls. That is not quite the same as the question which the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, asked, which was whether in a recession people resort more to crime. I do not believe that there is any such evidence.
Lord Peston: My Lords, since personal consumption falls in a recession and is falling at this very moment, the worrying aspect that seems to follow from the research, if we can take the research seriously, is that we should be predicting that crimes of violence will begin to rise. That is why I asked for clarification.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it is dangerous to get into the area of speculation. It is obviously a matter of concern and the research was undertaken to establish whether there was a correlation between what people have, what they expect and crime. The sad fact is that for one reason or another crime continues to rise. It is important that all those who are involved with children—and one has to remember that children play a large part in the business of crime—must make every effort to bring those children up correctly. That refers to their homes and schools and also to voluntary organisations, because the majority of crime is committed by people who are between the ages of 15 and 18.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is nothing more shattering than to arrive home to find one's home has been totally ransacked and furniture smashed and broken? I have been through that three times in three years. One calls the police. They ask what is missing and one gives a fairly comprehensive list there and then. However, when it is necessary to ask the police for their assistance regarding the items that were taken —which were notified to them verbally—they do not even know what was taken. What is more disturbing, they do not even know the date when the break-in took place. Can that position be corrected?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am sorry to hear that the noble Lord has also been burgled. This is becoming a rather unsatisfactory Question Time and I am apprehensive in case any other noble Lord asking a question should declare an unhappy interest. I cannot tell the noble Lord the answer to his question. We accept that for anyone who has been burgled it is a very upsetting experience and they expect the police to be there and to help as much as they can. The police have to work to an order of priorities and they do the best they can.
Baroness Phillips: My Lords, can the Minister ensure that in crime prevention propaganda aimed at engaging the general population the message is not put in such a way that the victim is apparently blamed for the crime?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the victim should certainly not be blamed for the crime. It is no part of the Government's exercise to blame the victim for the crime. The blame rests entirely with the perpetrators, and it is the community as a whole—individuals and organisations—which can help to beat crime. It is an

1659
interesting fact that one in three people has a criminal conviction for an indictable offence by the age of 25. That is a terrible figure. That must depend a great deal on the way in which those people are brought up.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, is that one in three people or one in three males? I understand that the conviction rate for females is very much lower.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the expression used with regard to government Bills is that the male embraces the female. I believe that the noble Baroness is correct in thinking that this statistic refers to males only.

Saddam Hussein: War Crimes
11.20 a.m.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:
What steps they are taking to secure the trial under international law of Saddam Hussein on charges of war crimes.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness): My Lords, the Answer is virtually the same as that which I gave on 16th April to a similar Question from the noble Lord, Lord Molloy. It stated that, following the EC Foreign Ministers' agreement on 15th April, the Twelve should work for Saddam Hussein to be held to account and that the EC Presidency is pursuing with the UN Secretary-General ways to follow that up.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. However, are the Government considering whether this country and members of the coalition should indicate to Iraq that sanctions will not be withdrawn until that man has been removed from power and surrendered to international justice?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, it has been agreed between the coalition forces and in the UN that sanctions will not be lifted, certainly for the time being.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that, as was pointed out by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Shawcross, in The Times yesterday, criminal proceedings could be initiated against Saddam Hussein for his aggressive invasion of Kuwait under the Pact of Paris of 1928, but that if action on genocide under the convention of 1948 was to be taken, that would involve the setting up of an international tribunal of distinguished lawyers? Does the noble Earl think that if proceedings along those lines were taken Saddam Hussein would have to be present? Is it not possible to hold the trial in his absence? Furthermore, to go a little wide of the Question, will the noble Earl tell the House what advances are being made in the setting up of encampments in north and west Iraq?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, while neither the Geneva Convention of 1949 nor the Genocide Convention of 1948 precludes setting up an international tribunal, they specifically provide for suspected war criminals to be tried before national
1660
courts. The noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition raises an important point because it is difficult to see an international tribunal having the power to bring Saddam Hussein to trial against his will. That is one of the many difficulties.
With the leave of the House, perhaps on this occasion I may answer the noble Lord's second question, which is wide of that on the Order Paper, because an interesting development occurred yesterday about which your Lordships would like to hear. A memorandum was signed by the United Nations and the Iraqis. I shall arrange for a copy to be put in the Library of the House, but perhaps I may read one part of it which states:
"The Government of the Republic of Iraq welcomes the United Nations efforts to promote the voluntary return home of Iraqi displaced persons and to take humanitarian measures to avert new flows of refugees and displaced persons from Iraq. It pledges its full support to, and co-operation with, the United Nations and its specialised agencies and programmes in this regard".
I think that we can all welcome that news.
Lord Beloff: My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that to set up an international tribunal to try Saddam Hussein would require action by the United Nations and that that action is unlikely to be forthcoming and at any rate would be the subject of interminable delay? Is it not a fact that the clearest case which could be made against him is on the basis of aggression against Kuwait and the subsequent genocide, or attempted genocide, of the Kuwaiti people? Would not the proper course be to encourage the Government of Kuwait to seek his extradition for trial before a Kuwaiti court?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, my noble friend raises some of the points of difficulty regarding an international tribunal. The definition of genocide requires proof of intention to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by carrying out certain acts. I must leave further definitions to the legal profession.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that famous Kurdish leaders from all parts of the Middle East who have suffered as a result of the genocide activities of Saddam Hussein before the Gulf war will be quite prepared to give evidence that their peoples have been destroyed and that Saddam Hussein was guilty of genocide even before he invaded Kuwait?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the seeking of evidence on that matter is something that the UN Secretary-General's special representative, Mr. Suy, will probably include in his report. That will be an important contribution.
With regard to a further point raised by my noble friend Lord Beloff, we agree that it would be much better if the Iraqi people got rid of Saddam Hussein.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, does the Minister agree that, although a memorandum signed by the Government of Iraq may quite rightly be welcomed in this House, it is unlikely to inspire much confidence in the Kurdish or Shi'ite refugees?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, we are doing a great deal to help the Kurdish and Shi'ite refugees. I believe that it is a welcome step forward from 24 hours ago.

Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Bill
11.26 a.m.
The Paymaster General (Lord Belstead): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
The Second Reading takes place at a time when terrorist activity in Northern Ireland continues at a high level. I hope that your Lordships will excuse me if I do not take up the House's time with statistics to illustrate the continuing magnitude of the problem. Statistics are not in any case a proper measurement of the real impact of terrorism. They cannot adequately quantify, for example, the grief and suffering brought about by the recent shooting of two young girls and a young man at a mobile shop in Craigavon or a father in front of his children in Coagh, County Tyrone, or the murder of a policeman about to visit his elderly mother in Ballycastle. None of us is under any illusion about the problems that need to be faced. As we embark upon this debate, we must all have in our minds those who have suffered as a result of terrorism and our sympathies and hearts go out to them.
I have very much in mind also the debt that we owe to the security forces in Northern Ireland—we owe them so much —and the part played by others; the judiciary, court staff, prison officers and the people of Northern Ireland themselves, going about their daily lives, who have suffered so much over so many of years.
The purpose of the Bill is to re-enact, with amendments, the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Acts of 1978 and 1987, together with certain parts of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989. The Bill is needed because the existing legislation has a fixed, five-year life and would expire in May 1992. As most of the Bill comprises straightforward re-enactment, much of it will already be familiar to your Lordships. However, as well as re-enacting the existing legislation, the Bill also contains a number of new provisions that were introduced as a result of the recommendations of my noble friend Lord Colville to whom we are much indebted for another authoritative report. It also contains a number of amendments which were introduced directly at the instigation of government.
Before coming to the main provisions of the Bill, perhaps I may say a few words about the principles which underpin the emergency legislation. Last November, in answer to a Question in another place, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made a statement in which he made it clear that the Government's first priority in Northern Ireland is the defeat of terrorism from whichever section of the community it comes. There is no acceptable level of violence and, for so long as violence continues, it will be met with a firm and resolute response. Your Lordships might say that there is nothing new in that
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but I believe that it cannot be repeated too often. The actions of the terrorist have no place in a civilised society. Our commitment to the defeat of terrorism remains absolute. The proof of that commitment lies in the fact that after more than 20 years of wanton and horrific suffering, inflicted not just on the security forces or the people of Northern Ireland but elsewhere in the UK as well, the determination of successive administrations has remained constant that there should be a just and lasting democratic solution to the deep-seated problems of Northern Ireland.
Within that context, the emergency legislation still has a vital part to play. Much though we wish it could be otherwise, the ordinary criminal law and procedures are not enough in all circumstances to deal with the special problems of terrorism. We believe that, if criminal procedures are to deal with terrorist tactics and the problems to which they give rise, some departures from ordinary procedures remain necessary at any rate for the present time.
I emphasise that this view was shared by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. However, it is our avowed policy—once again this is reflected in the statement of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State—that any departures from ordinary criminal procedures should be kept to a minimum, that emergency legislation should be kept under regular review and that, where they are no longer needed, individual provisions should be dropped. It is also an important part of our policy that the emergency provisions must contain appropriate safeguards to protect individual rights including the rights of those suspected of terrorist offences.
A further, crucial aspect of our approach is that, where additional powers are given to the police or the armed forces, they should be applied with the utmost integrity and even-handedness across the community. In his review last year, as in the earlier reports that he produced on the operation of the emergency provisions Acts, my noble friend Lord Colville expressed the view that it is not so much the powers themselves which can cause concern in Northern Ireland, as the way in which they are applied. I should like to emphasise that this point is totally accepted by the Government and by the security forces. Jointly, we have a determination to ensure that emergency powers are used only where appropriate and then to the highest professional standards. A great deal has already been achieved in this area through training, improvements to the complaints procedures, and the determination of successive commanders of both the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the army in Northern Ireland. I suspect, however, that it is an area where, however much is done, there will always be room for improvement. But a high standard is being set and, together with the security forces, we shall do everything possible to try to ensure that it is met and, wherever possible, improved upon.
In this connection your Lordships will be aware that in another place on 6th March the Government announced that they had decided to accept in principle my noble friend Lord Colville's recommendation that we should introduce an independent element into the scrutiny of the armed forces' procedures for handling

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those complaints which fall short of allegations of criminal misconduct. The Government regard that as a significant further development in an area of public concern. In order to give effect to that decision, we shall shortly table proposals for your Lordships' consideration.
So the House will have an opportunity to consider the detail of proposals which I hope to bring forward at a later stage. I hope, therefore, that on the occasion of this Second Reading your Lordships will be content if I say no more than that the Government envisage the appointment of an independent assessor whose function would be to keep under review the working and effectiveness of the procedures for the submission of, investigation, and response to complaints against members of Her Majesty's forces in Northern Ireland which fall short of allegations of criminal misbehaviour. Of course allegations of criminal misbehaviour are for the police to investigate. We envisage that this review work will be carried on, but, although I am ready to answer questions at the end of the debate, I should prefer to go into the detail once the amendments have been tabled. Perhaps I may just say that it is our intention that the independent assessor should also submit an annual report to my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Defence and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland which would be laid before Parliament.
The Government are confident that, for the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Colville and indeed others, such a measure will be greatly in the public interest. It will be the latest in a series of measures introduced in recent years to make the complaints process more effective, of which the most recent example was the establishment by the army in Northern Ireland earlier this month of a central complaints office to enhance existing internal army systems for the speedy and effective processing of complaints involving Her Majesty's Forces. The Government believe that the provisions which I intend shortly to lay before your Lordships will therefore be of value not only to the community but also to the armed forces themselves in helping retain the confidence and support of all men and women of goodwill from both traditions in Northern Ireland.
Perhaps I may now say briefly what are the main provisions of the Bill and try to highlight where significant changes are proposed. Part I of the Bill replaces, without significant amendment, Part I of the 1978 Act. It continues the category of scheduled offences and provides for trials on indictment for scheduled offences to be conducted by the court without a jury, which remains regrettably necessary because in terrorist cases there remains the danger of intimidation of juries. It provides that bail in such cases is to be granted only by the High Court or Court of Appeal. Part I also contains special rules on the admissibility of confessions by persons charged with scheduled offences and for reversing the onus of proof in relation to offences of possession of firearms and explosives. It also provides for the granting of remission for persons convicted of scheduled offences
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and for the reactivation of the remitted portion of earlier sentences. Those provisions are currently found in Part VI of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1989.
Part II replaces, with amendments, Part II of the 1978 Act. It confers powers on the police and armed forces to enter premises without warrant, to search for munitions, radio transmitters and receivers, and for persons unlawfully detained, and for the purpose of arresting terrorists. It provides the police and armed forces with powers of arrest and seizure; powers to stop and question and to search persons in public places; and powers of entry and interference with rights of property and with roads. The power of seizure for the armed forces in relation to equipment used to re-open closed border crossing points is provided for the first time in this statute, but it was refined by a government amendment in another place in order to restrict the exercise of the power to a maximum of four hours. This part also creates a new offence of bypassing closed border crossing points. Part II also introduces new powers for the police and armed forces to examine documents and other material to establish whether they contain information useful to terrorists. This provision was also amended in another place so as to exclude from the exercise of the power material subject to legal privilege.
Part III replaces, with two significant additions, Part III of the 1978 Act. It continues the category of proscribed organisations for Northern Ireland and offences relating to membership of and support for such organisations. It also creates offences relating to the unlawful collection of information likely to be useful to terrorists; training in the making or use of firearms and explosives; and the wearing in public places of masks, hoods or other articles to conceal identity. This part also creates a new offence of directing the activities of an organisation concerned in the commission of acts of terrorism, which was added to the Bill in another place, and, based on a recommendation by the noble Lord, Lord Colville, also includes a new offence of possessing items intended for terrorist purposes.
Part IV, together with Schedule 3, re-enacts the power of executive detention. Part V re-enacts the regulation of security guard companies in Northern Ireland. Part VI replaces, without amendment, Part II of the 1987 Act. It contains statutory rights for persons arrested and detained in police custody under the terrorism provisions to have a person informed of their arrest and whereabouts and to have access to legal advice. It also makes new provision to allow the police to take fingerprints from terrorist suspects, without consent, in line with the law in Great Britain.
Part VII contains new provisions, which were introduced by the Government in another place, to allow for the confiscation of personal assets derived from terrorist-related activities. The existing law does not provide an effective means of depriving those convicted of such financial offences of the personal benefit that they would derive from involvement in such activities. That is what the new provisions on confiscation are intended to achieve in Part VII, with

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safeguards for the innocent, who, I assure your Lordships, I believe have nothing to fear from these provisions.
Part VIII re-enacts, without amendment, existing provisions in the 1978 Act and the Prevention of Terrorism Act. It provides for the Secretary of State to make regulations for promoting the preservation of the peace and the maintenance of order. It re-enacts the provision that widened the grounds on which the Secretary of State may reject applications for licences for new explosives factories and magazines currently found in Part VI of the Prevention of Terrorism Act. It also provides for the payment of compensation by the Secretary of State in respect of property taken, occupied, destroyed or damaged by members of the security forces. This part also contains new powers, inserted on the recommendation of my noble friend Lord Colville to allow my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to make codes of practice governing the exercise of the emergency powers by the police and armed forces. It also contains new provisions introduced by the Government in another place relating to terrorist investigations.
Part IX contains supplementary provisions. As with the existing legislation, this part provides for the temporary provisions of the new legislation to be renewed annually by Parliament and to have a five year life.
That is the background to the Bill. It makes a serious attempt to ensure that the police, armed forces and the courts have at their disposal the means to protect society in Northern Ireland from the evils of terrorism. It contains strong new powers to give the security forces a sharper edge against terrorism. I confess that I make no apology for that. I stand ready to justify those powers. Equally, we believe that the Bill, supported by other measures, provides a proper range of safeguards for people who may be affected by the emergency legislation.
Finally, in commending the Bill to the House I remind your Lordships that the emergency legislation forms only part of the overall strategy for tackling terrorism. We shall continue to seek improvements across the broad span of our security effort, including co-operation with the Republic of Ireland, and our determination in the security field will be matched with our efforts to make progress on political development and economic and social issues. The drive against terrorism must be prosecuted on a broad front and the Bill before your Lordships will help to ensure that, for their part, the police, the armed forces and the courts have the necessary means to do the job —and in ways that ought to command the confidence of all people of good will. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time. —(Lord Belstead.)
11.45 a.m.
Lord Prys-Davies: My Lords, I wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for opening the debate in such an eminently balanced way, as one would expect. I join with the Minister in paying tribute to the fortitude of the people of Northern Ireland, and to the
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members of the security forces, who undertake their lawful duties often in difficult and dangerous circumstances, and to the judiciary, who have an immensely difficult task to discharge.
It is clear from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, that the Bill is more than a re-enactment with modifications of existing legislation in this complex field. It is a major Bill creating a number of significant new powers and significant new offences which are outside the ordinary criminal law of Northern Ireland. The Bill therefore extends the scope and the duration of the current emergency legislation. It will be the principal framework which will govern the activities of the security forces and the police in Northern Ireland during the next five years.
Sadly, we must recognise that there is still a need for exceptional legislation to meet the special circumstances in Northern Ireland. Regrettably—no doubt we shall hear from my noble friend Lord Fitt if he is present later—that special criminal legislation has been a distinguishing feature of the government of Northern Ireland since at least the beginning of the last century. That is far from over. But the history of emergency legislation suggests fairly clearly that such legislation by itself is not a solution to grievances, real or imaginary. Such legislation must be accompanied by political initiative. That is why we on these Benches welcome unconditionally the political initiative of the present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
Therefore, while fully accepting that there is still a need for emergency legislation, we must never grow tired of repeating the familiar argument that where a society faces a ruthless internal threat to its stability, and even to its existence, the state should not be provoked into overreacting under the pressures of the passing hour. Its response must be conducted, so far as possible, within the framework of a rule of law. If it is provoked into overreacting, that will be counter-productive because the situation would be exploited by the paramilitary organisations to build up sympathy for themselves in the communities which they claim to represent and defend, and in the world beyond the United Kingdom.
We believe that two questions have to be asked about every clause in the Bill, and satisfactory answers given before the clause can be given an unqualified welcome. First, is the clause essential in order to maintain order? I readily concede that that is usually a question which is far more difficult for the Opposition to answer than for the government of the day since the Opposition do not have access to up-to-date information about the security position. Nevertheless, the question has to be asked.
Secondly, if the provision is essential, does it contain the necessary safeguards to protect the rights of the innocent suspect who is caught up in its net? Therefore the power or the offence which the Executive considers to be necessary must be balanced with the necessary safeguards to minimise the possibility of abuse, otherwise the legislation can go sadly wrong. Those two principles are acceptable to most people. I believe that in his opening speech the Minister acknowledged that that dual test is the appropriate approach to the Bill.

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In assessing the merits and demerits of the Bill's provisions, we are greatly assisted by three authorities. We have the authoritative and informative report of' the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, which was presented to Parliament last July. The noble Viscount is one of the greatest living authorities on the operation of existing legislation. Therefore his recommendations should carry great weight with the Government and with the opposition parties. The noble Viscount has fully earned our gratitude.
Secondly we have the advice of the Northern Ireland Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights. The commission agrees that emergency provisions are required for the time being. However, it believes that much more attention should be paid to building appropriate safeguards into the Bill. We are also indebted to the Committee on the Administration of Justice in Northern Ireland. I accept that the committee is a firm and radical critic of the case for emergency legislation.
We are mindful that some of the provisions of the emergency legislation and some of the provisions contained in the Bill were strongly criticised by members of the United Nations Committee on Human Rights when meeting in New York at the beginning of this month. It is also fair to say that that watch dog tends to judge Western democracies by higher standards than it applies elsewhere.
I turn to the provisions of the Bill. We are dismayed that the Government have been unable to accept a number of the key recommendations to safeguard human rights. They were made by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and supported by the standing advisory commission. They have been ignored; they have been swept aside. It is a matter of particular regret that the Bill re-enacts the specific power of detention without charge or trial. That provision appears in Part IV, Clause 34. More than 16 years have elapsed since the power was last used. In 1987 the then Home Secretary announced that there was no intention to reintroduce detention without trial. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, came down decisively against that measure. I do not doubt that the Minister will claim that the power should be retained because the Government may want to fall back on it during the course of a rainy day. We wonder!
Perhaps I may remind the House of the words of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. In paragraph 11.9 of his review of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Acts 1978 and 1987 he stated:
"Detention without charge or trial is normally regarded as a symbol of authoritarian abuse of power, and there is much rejoicing in Europe over its ending".
The re-enaction of the power is a blot on the Northern Ireland statute book. Indeed, its retention wholly justifies a debate in itself, and we shall return to the subject in Committee. Meanwhile, it would be of assistance to noble Lords if before the Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, would be good enough to place in the Library a list of the countries which still retain that symbol of authoritarian power.
In common with the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, we are disappointed that the Government have not been able to accept the recommendation that the interrogation of detainees
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be video recorded. That would have been an invaluable shield to the police and to the detainees. I have still to hear a convincing explanation of why the police authorities in Northern Ireland are resisting that recommendation. What do they fear from the camera?
On the other hand, the Bill provides a number of new powers and offences which need to be modified in order to minimise the risk of abuse. In the time available today I shall comment briefly on only one power and one offence. Clause 22 creates the power to examine documents in order to decide whether they contain information likely to be of use to terrorists. The clause was improved in another place in order to protect documents which are subject to legal privilege. However, there is still great uncertainty about how it will work in practice in the hands of a soldier on duty at a checkpoint or when a house is searched. How will a soldier, a private who is a layman in these matters, be able to recognise a document that is subject to legal privilege? I am not sure whether the clause can be amended. Like the poll tax, it may well be incapable of amendment.
Clause 30 introduces a new offence of being in possession of items intended for terrorist purposes. Many people believe that to be the most significant innovation in the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, told the House that the clause stems from the recommendation made by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, that there should be an offence of going equipped for terrorism. Most people will agree with the offence as drafted by the noble Viscount and as produced in Appendix 2 of the report. But the clause goes much wider than the noble Viscount's recommendation. It ignores one vital condition in his definition, and it reverses the burden of proof. The clause can easily be abused as a source of harassment and therefore it must be examined carefully in Committee.
The Bill will authorise the police and members of the security forces to use powers which are exceptional by any standard. Often they will be used by young soldiers working in difficult conditions. The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, has not given any statistics but I should like to mention one set. Many people in Great Britain would be surprised to know that in 1989 1.2 million vehicles were stopped and checked by the West Belfast Battalion. During August of that year, the battalion carried out 2,444 patrols. Those figures are to be found in the report of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. He considered that they were worth recording and so do I. Can the Minister confirm that such a scale of activity is not exceptional but is still the order?
The noble Viscount was told by the army authorities that the soldiers are not very old, are led on patrol by a non-commissioned officer in his early twenties, and they go out on duty knowing of and fearing what might happen to them. I formed that impression last year when the army allowed me to visit two permanent checkpoints on the border. I was favourably impressed by the conduct of the young men whom I saw. Nevertheless, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, was prompted by what he

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heard from members of the general public to express his anxiety about the way that it was said that people were being stopped and searched in the street. That is recorded at paragraphs 2.11, 2.15 and again at paragraph 5.1 of the report. He says at paragraph 5.1:
"Stories abound of clumsy, rude or arrogant behaviour by both military and police personnel".
His words were echoed—and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, will know this—more forcefully by the much respected Primate of All Ireland, Dr. Daly, in the homily which he delivered on 28th March last.
It is fair to say that the complaint is not of criminal conduct but of humiliating, vexatious and provocative behaviour. It is fair to say also that the Army has sought to improve the way in which complaints are dealt with. However, clearly there is a need not merely for an independent element in the complaints procedure but also for a credible independent element in the procedure. That must be seen to be credible not merely by your Lordships in this House but by the public at large in Northern Ireland.
This morning we have learnt a great deal about the Government's intentions from the Minister's opening speech. However, we must consider very carefully whether the proposals to be introduced by the Government adequately meet the criticism, because that is a criticism which must be answered.
There are other matters which are the cause of anxiety such as the need for a code of practice relating to the use of lethal force and the absence of a right to apply for a judicial review of a decision permanently to close a border crossing. We are concerned about the scope of Clauses 27 and 58. I express the hope that we can make some modest improvements to the Bill in Committee.
I conclude by returning to one of my original points. It would be mistaken to believe that emergency legislation will, by itself, bring enduring peace to Northern Ireland. That prime objective can be achieved only along political routes. That is why we attach such importance to and strongly support the political initiative which the Secretary of State has steadfastly pursued over the past 15 months. We earnestly hope that the historic talks which will begin on 30th April on the political future of Northern Ireland will be constructive and fruitful.
12.3 p.m.
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: My Lords, perhaps I may join the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, in thanking the Minister for his extremely helpful and clear introduction to today's debate. We on these Benches believe that the passage of a Bill of this sort is a regrettable necessity. I say "of this sort" because there are significant inclusions in the Bill which the Minister mentioned and significant omissions from it with which we shall wish to engage the House. We do not believe it to be a perfect Bill, but there is incontestably an emergency in Northern Ireland as well as a long-term and long enduring problem. An emergency provisions Bill is necessary to deal with that emergency.
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All of us must regret the continuation and, indeed, it seems in recent months the intensification of violence in Northern Ireland which makes necessary this legislation. However, it is necessary as long as the thugs are seeking to impose their vision of the future at the point of a gun rather than accepting the inevitability of co-existence of the communities in Northern Ireland and democratic deliberation.
I take this opportunity to thank the police and the Army for doing what is very often a thankless job in confronting and contesting the terrorists. Perhaps I may refer particularly to the predicament of the often young soldiers who make up our forces in Northern Ireland. We should all recognise what a lonely and unpleasant job it is for young men. They must feel isolated. The situation is brutalising. Indeed, when we think of how much it appears that the existence of support groups matter to our young men in the Middle East, I suggest that we should all address our minds to the question of whether we could do more to support, and support psychologically by some sense of fellow feeling, the soldiers in Northern Ireland. I raise this question briefly today and I should like to return to it later in this House.
Finally, by way of general introduction, it is appropriate to reiterate our congratulations to the Secretary of State on his patient efforts to bring together the parties in Northern Ireland. We all wish the talks well. I trust that the truce announced by the Loyalist paramilitaries is genuine despite the horrible murder last night. This is a moment of decision for the larger terrorist groups on the other side of the argument. It is a moment of decision, is it not, for the IRA and Sinn Fein, its political sponsor? They now have a window of opportunity which they could take if they wished to do so to say that they will become part of a constitutional attempt to arrive at a peaceful settlement. Those who stick to terrorism at this time are putting themselves beyond the pale.
Having said that generally we support a Bill of this sort, there are a number of anxieties which I should like to raise for the attention of the House this morning. The first is that from these Benches we have had a long-standing anxiety about the Diplock courts. They place such great stresses and strains on the judiciary to whom the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, expressed gratitude for their efforts. We continue to urge that there should be three judges presiding over non-jury cases and that juries should be used wherever possible.
Secondly and specifically, I raise the nature of the very vaguely drafted Clause 30 which states:
"A person is guilty of an offence if he has any article in his possession in circumstances giving rise to a reasonable suspicion that the item is in his possession for a purpose connected with … terrorism".
There is a double displacement in the wording of that clause. It is extremely vague and I imagine that it will cause a great deal of discomfort in the courts. In the case of the Winchester Three, which your Lordships will recall, a radio was found in the possession of one of the suspects which could pick up police messages. How many of us occasionally find that we pick up police messages on our radios?

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The fact that an article has only to give rise to a "reasonable suspicion" and that it is for a purpose "connected with" could mean that almost any article could be caught by that clause. Is a coffee grinder for grinding coffee or is it for breaking up explosives into finer particles? Your Lordships will recall that a map of Winchester was found in the possession of the Winchester Three. Was that for planning agreeable country walks around Winchester or for locating the house of the Secretary of State for Defence? Is an old alarm clock in someone's knapsack for waking up someone in the morning or is it the raw materials for the construction of a bomb?
In his presentation of the Bill the Minister leant heavily on the distinguished work of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. It is worth reminding the House that the noble Viscount produced a draft and stated two requirements that the Government appear to have dropped. First, he explicitly required intentionality; that the people carrying suspected items should be doing so with the intention of committing an offence, not simply in circumstances which might give rise to a suspicion that they had such an intention. Secondly, he suggested that people's abodes should be specifically excluded. If one thinks of the contents of the average person's home it is possible for any officer of the law to construct a case that any articles obtained for ordinary domestic use could give rise to that suspicion. The Bill is too broadly drafted, and your Lordships should perhaps consider that point carefully in Committee.
My second anxiety concerns Clause 27. The clause is admirable in its intent. It deals with people who direct "at any level" terrorist activities. The intention is one that we should support; that is, to bring into the security network the shadowy Mr. Bigs lurking behind the terrorists who do the dirty work; the people who do the planning; the people behind the thugs. That intention must be right. I am sure that it will command support. Those people must be caught.
However, the words, "direct, at any level" make nonsense of the English language. In commercial usage a director is someone who directs an enterprise. Are we to say that an office boy who directs the emptying of the waste paper basket is directing at a certain level? We are torturing the language to the point where, instead or the clause being designed to catch people who plan these terrible offences, it could be used to apply literally to anyone. I cannot believe that that is the Government's intention. I understand also that it goes beyond what the RUC wants from the clause.
I have criticised one or two sins, as we see them, of commission in the Bill; I should now like to raise one apparent omission to which the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, has already drawn attention. Despite the recommendations of both the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights, the Bill fails to offer protection for the reputation of the RUC by the provision of video taping for interviews with suspects. The Colville Report said,
"It is hard to see how it is possible any longer to resist a system of recording the closed circuit TV signal".
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In the light of that explicit recommendation perhaps I can ask why the Government have not seen fit to follow that advice. The Standing Advisory Committee on Human Rights said,
"The Commission (SACHR) is strongly of the opinion that the addition of a video recording facility would be of considerable assistance".
The Government have been given good and clear advice on the matter and have chosen not to take it. I wonder why. The reason for following the advice is not simply to protect potentially innocent suspects; it is also to protect the reputation of the police. We must be aware that there is now a problem of credibility. The cases of the Birmingham Six, the Maguire Seven and the Guildford Four have left those of us who want proper security at sixes and sevens.
The Government must take action to try and restore in every way that they can public faith in the criminal justice system. To fail to do so is not simply to fail to protect human rights and civil liberties; it is also not to lend support to our police force where it is most needed. Video recordings of police interviews would protect the police and the public from repetitions of the tragic incidents which deprive innocent men of their freedom and which have done so much to damage the reputation of the police. Perhaps the Minister can say —if not I am sure we shall return to the matter—why the Government do not feel able to follow the advice of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville.
I have been critical of one or two points in the Bill but I should say that we warmly support the new clauses designed to clamp down on racketeering in Northern Ireland. It is a problem when people who are thugs begin to infiltrate the whole system of society; to extend their tentacles into commerce and other activities. For instance, it would be interesting to know the Government's perception of the problem concerning taxi firms and cab drivers, not just in Belfast but increasingly in other parts of Northern Ireland, where there appears to be significant penetration of that important occupation. As the Minister is aware, in some places in Belfast taxis are the only means of transport available for people who are terrorists or paramilitaries of one kind or another. We support attempts by the Government to clamp down on racketeering.
We believe that the terrorists must not be defeated so much in the military sense as shown beyond doubt that they cannot win by violence. To demonstrate that requires not only effective enforcement of the law and the protection of security but also the rejection of the gunmen by the community in Northern Ireland. The Government will need to continue to pursue a twin-track strategy; that is, stern prosecution of security and great sensitivity over the limits of power and the way that that power is exercised in Northern Ireland. It is implicit in our anxieties about the Bill that we should get that balance right.
12.17 p.m.
Lord Colnbrook: My Lords, I support the Bill. I use the word "support" advisedly. I do not use the word "welcome" save in one respect. I do not welcome the fact that we need Bills like this; I do not believe

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anybody does. We all wish that Northern Ireland was like any other part of the United Kingdom—Sussex or anywhere else. We wish that there did not exist a small group of people—and it is a small group —who are determined to destroy the existing system of government in Northern Ireland. But more than that, the Provisional IRA are on public record as saying that their objective is, first, to destroy the government of Northern Ireland and, secondly, to destroy the government of the Republic and run the whole place themselves.
So long as a body of persons who use violence, murder, bombing and other means of trying to gain their own way, exist, we need a Bill such as this. It would be totally unreasonable to expect the RUC and the army to maintain any kind of peace and law and order with only the powers that exist in the rest of the United Kingdom. It could not be done. It would be unfair of us to invite them to do so. They have a difficult enough task as it is. We have the greatest respect for them. I cannot believe that if we did not equip them with the extra powers contained in the Bill they would be able to do anything significant towards keeping the peace in Northern Ireland.
The situation in Northern Ireland is not ordinary; it is extraordinary. Therefore it needs extraordinary provisions of the law in order to deal with it. The Bill is called, as all its predecessors have been called, the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Bill. I am not sure that "emergency" is the right word. In most people's mind that is something that occurs quickly and goes away quickly. The situation has been going on for 21 years. Perhaps the Government might like to call it the Northern Ireland (Extraordinary Powers) Bill.
Leaving that aside, I welcome two matters. The first is that by introducing the Bill the Government are showing that they remain determined to ensure that terrorism is not succeeding in achieving its objectives.
The second fact, which I also welcome, is the statement made in explicit terms by the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, that he supports the Bill. The impression gained from the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, if not in quite such specific terms, is that he too believes that the Bill is necessary. When I was in Northern Ireland some years ago as Secretary of State, it was a great strength to me to be able to say that these extraordinary aspects of the law had the support of all the elected representatives in the House of Commons and the whole of Parliament without there being any belief in the minds of terrorists that there was a significant body of people who wanted to sweep them away, thus giving the terrorist the idea that they would have a chance to succeed. The fact that in your Lordships' House there is not going to be an effort to stop this Bill is greatly to the benefit of law-abiding people in Northern Ireland.
Of course there are differences of detail. There are bound to be. There always has been and there always will be differences of detail. I can remember when the Diplock courts were first introduced. There was a good deal of disquiet about that. People were very anxious at the idea that juries should be done away
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with and that certain types of offence could be tried by a single judge. People were not at all happy. In fact, the system has worked remarkably well, but with a great burden on the judiciary, as the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, said a moment ago. My noble friend the Minister can confirm this at the end if he is able to, but I think I am right in saying that the number of appeals against the decisions of the Diplock courts—noble Lords will remember that there is an automatic right of appeal against both verdict and sentence—is actually fewer than those from the criminal courts in cases where there are juries. That shows that the Diplock courts work and that they are accepted as working.
Differences remain and one of those has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies; namely, the power of internment. I am not really happy about that provision. In fact, in 1980 I made a change. Up to that period, under the law as it was then, the Secretary of State (me) could sweep people up and lock them up without asking a by your leave of anybody. One was constantly urged to do so. There are elements within the Province who say: "You know who all the terrorists are, why on earth do you not lock them up before they commit an offence rather than wait until they have?". So I was always under pressure to do that. Obviously, that is not a good step to take unless you really do know who the terrorists are. You think you do, but the trouble is that you do not.
The change I made at one of the renewal sessions was to require that if I or any one of my successors was to use that power he would have to come to Parliament within 40 days to get it confirmed. That did not apply before. That was a good measure though I do not know whether it applies today. If it does not, then I suggest to my noble friend that it should. I am not happy about the internment provision. I do not believe that it is going to be used. With reluctance, I support it now, but I do not know that I shall be able to continue supporting it forever.
I believe that the additional powers in this Bill are very good. The noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, mentioned Clause 30, which deals with the possession of items which may be used for terrorist purposes. I understand his doubts, but I believe that it is a very good measure. For example, let us consider that very unpleasant device called the mercury tilt switch. I believe that we all know what it is. You attach it to a bomb and put it underneath somebody's car. When he drives up a slope he is blown to pieces like poor Airey Neave. That is exactly what happened to him. I cannot believe that there is very much use for a mercury tilt switch, which I give as an example, in ordinary life. If there is, then people should have to prove it. People should not be able to carry these pieces of equipment about or even own them, unless they can show that there is a really good purpose for them.
The other new power which I believe is a good measure is the power to investigate the money supply. That is very useful and highly necessary. As I believe the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, said, by themselves Acts of Parliament like this one are not going to defeat

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terrorism unless other things happen as well. He mentioned the political initiative, with which I wholly agree. If it can be done, one of the best ways of defeating terrorism is to whittle away its support. I am talking now principally about the Provisional IRA. I know that there are terrorists on the loyalist side, but I believe that their acts of terrorism are reactive. If the Provisional IRA can be caused to cease to act and to exist, then I believe that the other organisations will, too. One of the ways of achieving that is to whittle away their support. Without support in the community in some form or another, a terrorist organisation cannot exist.
But how can one do that? How does one persuade people—I am not talking about active people who will place a bomb or press a trigger but those who, for example, will lend a motor car for a couple of hours without asking why; or those who will say: "Yes, I will take your rifle and bury it in the back garden until you need it again"; or those who will run messages? If their support can be whittled away, then the terrorist will find it much more difficult to act and probably will be unable to. How does one do that? One sets about it by seeking to remove grievances. I believe that has largely been done over a number of years. That has not been achieved entirely but very largely.
People have to be shown, first, that there is nothing at all to be gained by supporting a terrorist organisation, because it is never going to win. Secondly, one has to make it more difficult for a terrorist organisation to encourage people to join it, support it or lend it a hand. If the organisation runs out of money, that is going to be very much more difficult. Anything that we can do to make certain that the terrorist organisations are deprived of money should be done. The provision in the Bill will give the RUC extra powers in that direction and I hope that it will help.
All these methods of trying to overcome terrorism are terribly slow. We all wish that they could bear fruit immediately, but they cannot and they will not. Slowly. over a period of years, I believe that they will, provided that we advance on all fronts at the same time. I return to the Bill for a moment. Provided that the laws we pass here are not draconian, but tough and fair, and people believe that, then I believe that we shall have done our job properly and that there will still be a chance that before long the hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who want nothing better than to live in peace will be able to do so.
12.28 p.m.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, having listened to previous speakers who have concerned themselves very properly with what this Bill is about—namely, how to counter the distressingly obvious effects of terrorism in Northern Ireland leading to the total destruction of family life, as my noble friend Lord Belstead has said—I should like to put this subject into a rather different perspective and paint a perhaps rather different background, but following on very
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directly from what my noble friend Lord Colnbrook, with his great experience of Northern Ireland, has said.
It is appallingly easy to be overwhelmed by the security situation in the Province, especially when one is an outsider looking in, as, naturally, I have been for most of my life. That is borne out by the number of times I was commiserated with during my tenure of office. That commiseration was, and still is, totally misplaced. We should remember that there is another and improving facet of life there which, for the vast majority of the population, has been taking in slowly but surely in the past few years.
I first went across the water some 15 years ago to deliver a lecture. It did not take much investigation to see that life for most of the inhabitants differed markedly from life in Great Britain in terms, for example, of the ability to go shopping, as there were very few large department stores. People in Belfast and Londonderry tended to scuttle rapidly between house and shop and house again. The centre of Belfast was totally dead after six o'clock or so at night. Unemployment even then was very high and due to climb even higher during the mid-eighties.
In recent years though there has been a sea change in the social conditions in the Province, and something approaching what we on the mainland of Britain regard as normality has started to flow back to the Province. Last summer the pubs and restaurants—the latter much more numerous than for many years—were regularly packed out. The vast shopping centre in Castle Court was fully up and running; the two branches of Marks & Spencer, one in Belfast and the out-of-town one near Lisburn, were doing such good business that in some weeks they out-performed similar stores over here—and not for the first time, either. The city centre store is one of the most profitable branches, Marks & Spencer tells me, in the United Kingdom, and for a period was the most profitable. The same is true of the Britannia Building Society. Marks & Spencer is so pleased that it is planning a major expansion in its business in Northern Ireland with another three stores in Derry, Bangor and Ballymena, the last due to open on 1st June this year and the rest within 12 months. Thanks to the ceaseless whirlwind and worldwide activities of my former colleague Richard Needham, factories, works and commerce have returned to the Province resulting in the unemployment figure falling in 42 of the past 53 months. Unemployment currently stands at 98,800 on a seasonally adjusted basis, which is 26,500 lower than the peak of October 1986; and at 1.2 per cent. Northern Ireland had the lowest increase last month of any region in the United Kingdom.
These improving social and economic factors are of course just what the IRA does not want and the number of bombings has inevitably increased. A response to both these negative and positive features has been a stirring in the body politic, egged on slowly and carefully by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, who has rightly gained great praise for his endeavours and skill.
I counted myself more than fortunate then, when due to the intervention of my noble friend on the

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Front Bench, I was asked to take up the health and social services portfolio in the Northern Ireland Office. I regarded it then, as I regard it still, as the best job in government for a junior Minister, being totally responsible for first one, and then two, government departments. Being, as I described it, a mini Secretary of State, I was able to spend 95 per cent. of my working hours with a sector of normal government, a sector which is duplicated in Wales and Scotland, though of course is rather different in England. Perhaps, on reflection, that remark is rather disingenuous, because certain things are done rather better in Northern Ireland. For instance, health and social services are combined under the control of the health boards, a system I would dearly love to see in England. But this is not the occasion to go into that in any depth. I must return to my muttons.
I had a ministerial job which in other countries would, I suppose, carry the title of Minister for Social Affairs. I christened myself quite unofficially the minister for normality and made myself responsible for relieving what I perceived as the Northern Ireland "chip". Lest this should sound patronising, let me say that it was readily admitted by most of the people at all levels of society that I met. This self-effacing characteristic was hardly surprising among people who were still affected by years of political bullying and social unfairness in the 1950s and 1960s, reinforced by this most insidious effect of terrorism, making people want nothing better than to hide their light under a bushel. In my line of work this showed itself in professionals in the health and social services fields in particular. Where on my countless visits I found good, innovative working practices going on, I encouraged people to publish in the relevant professional journals what they were up to. Indeed, on one occasion I was so horrified by a blatantly unfair article in the Health Service Journal about community care that I commissioned a riposte from a respected academic at Queen's University.
Getting closer to today's debate, I recall an occasion when a leading member of the community, a respected director of a major charity, said to me, "I would dearly love to invite Mrs. Hillery to our next launching party, but I suppose I wouldn't be allowed to." I replied, rather forcefully for me, that I had never heard such rubbish and advised her to go ahead and send the invitation on the grounds that although the answer could well have been no, the important thing was to send it. It is instructive to remember that, although I was not involved, a subsequent invitation was sent to and accepted by the Taoiseach to another event not many weeks later.
In my time of office normality showed itself in another rather more frightening way. When I arrived in Northern Ireland almost two years ago, I was told by a very senior civil servant that health service workers there did not demonstrate. I accepted this at face value until I had to make a much publicised rapid exit from a seminar at Belfast City Hospital, and another lesser known one from the Royal Victoria Hospital. Neither had anything to do with terrorism, but were political demonstrations—one against
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competitive tendering and the other, at the Royal, against self-governing hospitals. They could equally have happened in Manchester, Liverpool or London.
The point I am making, I hope not too laboriously, is that defeating terrorism is not only a matter of policing and having sufficiently strong laws but of persuading people to lead a normal life through the development of political, economic and social policies. However, it simply will not happen unless the rule of law prevails and indiscriminate acts of violence are stamped out. It grieves me therefore to have to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham. I believe, along with my noble friend Lord Colnbrook if, as I think I did, I followed him correctly, that terrorism in Northern Ireland is, regretfully, not an emergency. It is a most regrettable fact of life that people have tragically learnt not so much to live with, but to an extent to cope with.
After all, one only has to remember that the Republic of Ireland itself was born out of terrorism and that that still continues. Our response therefore should not be in the form of an emergency provisions Bill. Let there be no mistake about it: what we are debating today is an admittedly necessary Northern Ireland counter-terrorism Bill. Along with my noble friend Lord Colnbrook I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench, although I suspect he cannot do anything about this Bill, will see to it that the point is taken up when preparations for the next Bill begin in some four years' time. Having said that, I strongly support not only the consolidatory aspects of the Bill, but also the new provisions concerning going equipped for terrorism, seizing machinery used in the illegal re-opening or by-passing of closed border crossing points and the power to search for documents. It is noteworthy in this connection that, as I saw from my newspaper, the RUC recently had to pay £5,000 compensation for doing this in a way that was not in accordance with the current law.
None of these examples is an emergency response to a temporary need. They equate with permanent provisions which Parliament has enacted to counter, for example, fraud and drugs. Indeed, I can only find one emergency response in the Bill, about which there has been much discussion in recent months; and in his speech the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, showed that it is set to continue. Should the situation warrant it, the Government are requesting Parliament to allow them to keep executive detention. This is a serious matter and it is only right that it should be fully aired. For my part, I believe there is no guarantee that within the five-year lifetime of the Bill the terrorist threat will decrease. Indeed, with the increasing normality that I have been talking about, I would expect it to increase correspondingly. Even with the magnificent service of the RUC and the security forces (to which I have good reason to pay a personal as well as a general tribute), terrorism could still explode, if I may be allowed to use that phrase, in terms of the number of incidents. If my worst fears are realised—and everyone in Northern Ireland will pray that they are not—internment will be the only way of dealing with the situation. If the power were not on the statute book, it would never be used, because even if Parliament were sitting, the

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Government would have to give notice that they intended to introduced legislation. The provision could, I accept, go through both Houses in a single day; but even this short time, given the power of radio and television, would see the disappearance of the terrorists from Northern Ireland like snow in summer. But Parliament might not be sitting. It is true that it might be recalled but, as we know from the Falklands War, that process takes even longer and the birds would have flown by the time a Northern Ireland executive detention Bill got on to the statute book.
I believe that there is an equally powerful reason why we should not get rid of the power of internment. If I have learnt nothing else in my time in your Lordships' House, it is that politics is about signals. By doing away with it, we shall be shouting from the roof-tops that we have the terrorist threat sufficiently under control and that we no longer need the one weapon that prevents a major upsurge in that threat. We would indeed do that at our peril.
I enormously regret the fact that I felt the need to speak in the way I have today in the second part of my speech. It has made depressing listening and, if anyone bothers to read my speech in Hansard, it will make depressing reading; but so do the reports of the numerous murders, bombings and fatal shootings that occur on a regular basis in Northern Ireland. Control of the situation is achievable. Indeed, in many parts of the Province it is being controlled by the admirable activities of the RUC, backed up by the UDR and the Army. But cure, alas, is not achievable. As those murderers whom we dignify by the name of terrorists continue their devilish activities, becoming ever more sophisticated in their methods and communications, so must we in defence of a normal and productive life for the population in Northern Ireland. This Bill is a necessary response.
12.41 p.m.
Lord Monkswell: My Lords, I rise to speak as probably the only Member of your Lordships' House who is totally opposed to this legislation. It has been quite interesting to listen to the contributions which have been made thus far. All of them, apart from that of the Minister, have been critical of the Bill. In the words of one of the speakers, the necessary balance is obviously not being achieved.
I was interested to hear the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. He painted a picture of increasing normality in the Province. He said that the response to that must be more and increased discriminatory powers in our legislation and the introduction of more offences against our constitution. That does not seem to be logical.
I have spoken in this House on previous occasions on the subject of legislation as it affects Northern Ireland and on legislation described as "prevention of terrorism" Acts. I must make it clear that I do not speak as a supporter or even as a sympathiser with any faction in Northern Ireland which seeks to use criminal acts to further political objectives. I hope that that statement will be accepted and respected by fellow Members of the House.
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I believe the Bill before us is counter-productive to the final objective which we all seek; namely, the elimination of terrorism, the promotion of respect for the rule of law in our country and the ability of people to live in peace with one another.
The noble Lord, Lord Colnbrook, mentioned that we had been living with this emergency for 21 years. In that time we have seen a continual ratchet upwards of legislation which, as I said before, discriminates against the Irish people in our country and offends against our constitution and the rule of law—the separation of the judiciary from the Executive.
I believe that we can legitimately ask ourselves: why at this point in time do we need a Bill which actually increases and introduces more offences? It increases the authoritarian executive power to interfere with the rights of citizens. Why after 21 years do we need such an increase? We have already had many of these powers and they have signally failed in achieving the objects for which they were put on the statute book.
We must be very careful about the legislation which we put on the statute book. In this day and age, given the increase in normality to which the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, referred, and given the political activity which is taking place under the leadership of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (with the support of Her Majesty's Opposition, the inclusion of the main political parties in Northern Ireland and the participation of the Government of the Irish Republic), I do not understand why we are seeking at this stage to enshrine more repressive legislation in statute. I believe that we are going in the wrong direction. Surely we should take this opportunity to ratchet down the discriminatory legislation which we already have against the people of Northern Ireland.
I would single out Part IV of the Bill especially. It deals with unlimited detention without trial. One of the interesting features is the inclusion of what I was going to call a charge. However, it is not in fact a charge as one normally understands the word; it is an indication of what has supposedly been done by the detained person. Such a person is allowed to know what is being held against him, but it may not amount to a criminal act. Moreover, the detained person is denied the opportunity of a trial. The whole concept offends against even the Magna Charta, which goes back almost a thousand years; yet we want to enshrine it in our statute book. It has been said that this power has not been used for many years. If that is so, why do we need it? I believe that successive Ministers have said that they have no intention of using it. But if there is no intention of using it, why is it on the statute book?
I hope that in Committee we may be able to persuade the Government to change direction a little so as to mitigate some of the worst excesses of our emergency legislation and to withdraw from the position of having powers on the statute book which we do not intend to use. The fact that those powers are on the statute book reinforces the attitude that some people have that the British Government are against the people of Northern Ireland. It could be used in a political way against all the efforts which have been

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made by every decent person to ensure the rule of law and the peaceful coexistence of all our citizens within the United Kingdom.
12.50 p.m.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I shall not attempt to follow the wide-ranging comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, on the Bill which is before the House today. Nevertheless, I ask noble Lords to step back 18 years in time with me. I do so because the more your Lordships' House changes, the more it remains the same. Some 18 years ago I was standing in roughly this spot on these Benches speaking on Northern Ireland, and, surprise, surprise, who should be speaking for the Government but my noble friend Lord Belstead. Nothing has changed apart from the fact that he now wears spectacles. Perhaps he needs them because he is longsighted or shortsighted. Eighteen years have passed by since then. Today we have heard a galaxy of speakers of enormous experience and integrity speaking on Northern Ireland. Nearly everyone who has spoken and many of the noble Lords who have listened to the debate have been associated in no small way with the Province.
Today as at so many other times during the past 18 years and more we are discussing emergency provisions for that part of the United Kingdom which contains 1.5 million brave and independent people. I repeat that we are discussing emergency provisions. My noble friend Lord Colnbrook referred to the term "emergency" earlier today. This measure is different from the normal run of legislation, let alone the legislation that we were discussing last night which concerned criminal justice and criminal affairs in Great Britain.
The problems which give rise to the Bill before us today and similar legislation started a long time ago. I invite noble Lords to take their pick as to when the problems started within Northern Ireland, the whole island of Ireland, or indeed within the British Isles. I invite the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, to take his pick as to when the problems started. Any noble Lord who has taken even a remote interest in the affairs of Northern Ireland over the past 18, 20, 25 or 30 years will recall the same problems, phrases and comments recurring. We can in many cases recall the same speeches being repeated. I invite noble Lords to look back over the records of proceedings in your Lordships' House and another place over the years. They will find the same problems being referred to though they may be dressed up slightly differently with different flavourings and different nuances. These same problems have bedevilled all of us for at least 22 years and more. We are still discussing emergency provisions today.
What we are discussing is anathema to everything that your Lordships' House, another place and this magnificent Palace of Westminster and its traditions collectively represent. Why are we discussing this matter today? I cannot begin to attempt to answer that. I leave that to those who are still to speak and who have taken part in the debate today. My thoughts such as they are and have been on Ulster, Northern
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Ireland and on the whole island of Ireland have been fashioned over 20 to 25 years by such luminaries as Lord Cameron. I am not referring to the noble and learned Lord who sat on these Benches and who has now become a judge, but to his father whom your Lordships may recall presented a report on Northern Ireland to the Government in 1969. He is 91 years old and hale and hearty. I still have his report and I still learn from it. Your Lordships may also recall the reports of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Scarman and Lord Widgery. Many of my thoughts were coloured by our sadly missed noble friend Lord O'Neill of the Maine.
For me Ulster and its people represent something like the earth or the moon. They have a sunny side and a darker side. The emergency provisions that we are discussing today represent the darker side and they are measures of dire necessity.
Your Lordships may wonder why a Scot, and an accountant at that, has ever taken any interest in Northern Ireland and why he is speaking today on Northern Ireland. Scots and accountants tend to go with figures and statistics. The simple series of statistics that I gleaned last night will show why I feel passionately that the measure we are discussing today is one of great necessity. Since that somewhat startling day 730 weeks ago today, 12th April 1984, when I was asked to go and serve in Northern Ireland, like my noble friends Lord Skelmersdale and Lord Belstead—the latter is now in his second incarnation in Northern Ireland —during my career which spanned five and a half years, as far as I am aware 81 soldiers, 75 members of the RUC and approximately 250 civilians were murdered, killed or died a violent death as a result of terrorist incidents in Northern Ireland. That is over 400 people. Each and every one of those 400 men, women, and two or three children meant something very special to their families and relatives in Northern Ireland, the Republic and often, regrettably, to relatives in Britain. They were needless victims. For each of those victims and those who mourn them the Bill before us today is a necessity.
However, the lighter side of Northern Ireland begins to show itself. At least your Lordships' House, another place and the Government are attempting slowly to correct the climate of terror and violence that blights the Province, the Republic and Britain. The attempts of several enormously intelligent men and women of integrity to keep governments and all of us within reasonable and logical bounds are much appreciated. I think particularly in this regard of the late Sir George Baker and of my noble friend Lord Colville. I believe my noble friend has been mentioned by every speaker today. My noble friend's report makes me feel very humble because it provides such marvellously clear reading. We, and everyone in Northern Ireland, are particularly lucky to have the scholarship and wisdom of my noble friend to chide us, warn us and in no small way to guide us as we seek to derive some form of law that will enable the ever more sophisticated forms of terror and evil to be identified and for their practitioners to be brought before the courts.

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My noble friend Lord Belstead has explained the measures in the Bill clearly and helpfully. I am interested by Part VII of the Bill. Perhaps your Lordships think that appropriate as an accountant is not likely to die of tedium wading through figures. In another place on another occasion my right honourable friend the Secretary of State explained that the measures in Part VII merely follow those of other pieces of legislation such as the Drug Trafficking Offences Act 1986, the Criminal Justice Act 1988 and the Northern Ireland Criminal Justice (Confiscation) Order 1990.
Legislation of the kind that is referred to in Part VII is already on the statute book and it applies on this side of the water in Britain. As I understand it, measures of similar ferocity are also available for those of us who are incalculably recalcitrant over our VAT and tax affairs. In such investigations documents can be demanded and requisitioned. Banks often have to produce highly confidential information to assist investigations which are already permitted under the three pieces of legislation I have referred to. Your Lordships will be aware that some measures under companies legislation can lead to draconian conduct on the part of investigators. The measures in Part VII are not some form of new and vicious legislation aimed at poor, harmless, innocent and charming persons in Northern Ireland.
It is vital for the authorities, whoever they may be to make a start. I hope that they will then make increasing progress with eliminating the enormous opportunities for fraud, racketeering and mafia-style activities. That is perhaps harsh language to use about people in an integral part of the United Kingdom, but those words were used by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.
Every conceivable offence is covered in Clause 49(1) (a): intimidation, security services being run without a licence, assisting others to retain the proceeds and stealing the proceeds of racketeering. It appears that all the obvious avenues have been covered by that paragraph in Clause 49, let alone by Clause 7. It took me several minutes to unravel Clause 54(1), but I hope that I am now a little clearer about it.
I have to express my admiration for the new class of authorised investigator defined in Clause 57. I am sure that they will turn out to be very competent and courageous people. Part VII of the Bill is the only part on which I wish to comment today and I shall return to it at another stage.
I mentioned a dark and a lighter side to the situation. I should like to direct the attention of your Lordships to the brightest side of Northern Ireland, which has been mentioned by my immediate successor as Minister with responsibility for the Province in your Lordships' House, my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale. He looked after the Department of Health and Social Security while for five-and-a-half years I attempted to look after the Province. My noble friend who sits beside me may have something to say about my attempts on behalf of farmers. Never once was I in any great danger; it was only my waistline that was in danger.
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In all those years when the affairs of Northern Ireland were discussed in your Lordships' House and in another place many speeches were made by the same participants, often on the same subjects. I am not necessarily aiming my remarks at the noble Lord, Lord Fitt. We all love to hear him. He stands head and shoulders above all of us. He may speak today. I hope that he will not think that I am suggesting that we all say the same thing.
Whatever we say in your Lordships' House or whatever is said in another place, we have to admire the brightest side of the situation in Northern Ireland, namely that quality which turns up in all our discussions—the sheer courage of each and every one of the people of Northern Ireland. They have managed to live normal lives during 22 years of violence, terrorism, lawlessness and, too often, death. At the forefront of our admiration must be the courage of the men and women of the security forces, followed closely by their dependants, friends, loved ones and relatives who live on both sides of the Irish Sea.
The number, never mind the quality, of speakers in today's debate testifies to the impact of that shining courage of the people of Northern Ireland on all of us, let alone on another place, and its impact on our attempts and our determination to see that law, liberty and freedom will flourish in Northern Ireland, let us hope sooner rather than later. For that reason I support my noble friend and I support the Bill.
1.4 p.m.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, first, I should like to thank my noble friend the Minister for presenting the Bill in such a clear and understandable manner. I also pay tribute to the immense amount of work which my noble friend Lord Colville has contributed to it.
What I have to say is, by chance, in some respects a response to what the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, said. I shall endeavour to show in practical terms why I feel that his understanding of the situation is far apart from that of people in Northern Ireland.
When solutions to the Northern Ireland problem are discussed, the political solution is sometimes talked of as going hand in hand with a military solution. On the political side, everyone except the terrorists hopes very much that some positive good will result from the Secretary of State's forthcoming talks. The other half of the equation, the so-called military solution, is, I believe, incorrectly named and is misunderstood, largely due to spurious media reporting. I feel that it should be referred to as the law and order solution.
There must be adequate and appropriate laws to enable our security forces—the police with the military in support —to carry out their task of maintaining law and order within this part of the United Kingdom. I accept that there may have to be a military solution in isolated cases where, in order to save innocent lives, minimum force results in the security forces opening fire. However, in the vast majority of cases we are talking about dealing with suspected terrorists through the due process of the

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courts. We hear that the well-known loyalist terrorist organisations have decided on a short cease-fire. I hope that the Minister will reassure us that, even if there is a ceasefire by paramilitary groups, those who have committed murders and terrorist offences will continue to be brought to the courts and to justice.
I should like to consider from a practical point of view certain aspects of the Bill and the need for some of the new clauses which it contains. Clause 22, which has already been mentioned, relates to the power to examine documents. The atrocities in the Province are only the end result of considerable planning and preparation by ruthless, murderous terrorists. Often, for weeks and months, information such as the names of soft targets, timings, police and army routines, car numbers and even suitable positions for placing mortars in order to hit particular targets, has been collected by groups of people. The memory cannot cope with all that information and it has to be put on paper, carried around, stored and passed on to other people. By chance, examples of such information have been found by the security forces while searching clothes, cars and houses for weapons and explosives, which they have been legally empowered to do. Details of the registration numbers of policemen's and soldiers' cars have been found. In every case this has probably prevented an attempt on someone's life.
It is quite clear that far more information could be found if a provision such as Clause 22 is introduced. I accept that there is the question of legal, medical and religious confidentiality. However, such a power is necessary in order to save the lives of many British soldiers. Furthermore, Clauses 60 and 61 will enable the Secretary of State to introduce codes of practice. I trust him to do so in such a way as to take care of the issue of confidentiality.
Clause 25, which makes it an offence to interfere with or bypass previously closed border crossings, is worth comment. First, the requirement for such a provision has been shown on many occasions when terrorists have used the crossings to mount attacks. Perhaps one of the most horrifying was the attack on Derryard on 13th December 1989. Derryard is a checkpoint on the border. But for the professionalism of the soldiers at the checkpoint all eight of them would have been killed instead of only two.
Secondly, although we must be grateful for the co-operation that our security forces receive from the Republic, it is painfully clear that the Government of that state are incapable of securing their border and dramatically reducing the raids on the North from their side of the border. Only recently it was shown how the terrorists run rings around the security forces in the South. Security was requested on the southern side of the border crossing points during an operation announced by the Secretary of State recently. Yet on 22nd March soldiers of the Cheshire Regiment were fired on from the Republican side of the border. There were two access roads: the Garda were on the wrong one. That is fair enough. Two days later the IRA repeated the attack from the other road. Surely the Garda must be able to provide better protection than that. Certain border crossings must be kept closed
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because the Government of the Republic are not taking effective measures against terrorists operating within that state.
At present many law-abiding Protestants and Catholics living in border areas are being condemned to an unacceptable lifestyle of delays and disruption at permanent vehicle checkpoints. As a result, those people are demonstrating for improvement and modernisation. It is not always a case of demonstrations by terrorists or even pro-terrorist people, although I suggest that the terrorists would quite like to see them open. If you crossed the border four or five times a day for shopping or to take the children to school and, in a normal, average delay you were held up for 10 minutes, but often for between 20 and 30 minutes, you would understand what it is like.
I ask the Minister to provide the money to implement the solution of which he, the RUC and the military are well aware. The problem affects more people, tourists and businesses than all the other security measures daily in operation in the Province. It is also true to say that that solution would almost certainly eliminate the proxy or human bomb threat to those locations.
Clause 30 deals with the possession of items intended for terrorist purposes. There are many examples of suspects having been stopped while obviously preparing to carry out an attack. To mention but one, a car was stopped at 4 a.m. The occupants were dressed in balaclava helmets, "Marigold" rubber gloves and overalls. When they were asked what they were doing or were about to do, they said, "We're going to play a trick on a friend". That is not a realistic answer in Northern Ireland. We must have a charge to suit that kind of activity.
Everyone probably owns something which could conceivably be used by terrorists; indeed, my wife owns many pairs of "Marigold" rubber gloves. But your Lordships should rest assured. The world's most professional anti-terrorist forces and an extremely good British judiciary can differentiate between a terrorist and a housewife. That also goes for the different articles lying around the home mentioned by some noble Lords. It is true that the Bill deals with the intent to cause terrorist incidents. It is not realistic to suppose that people will be picked up for carrying such items as have been mentioned; for example, an alarm clock or even a Parkway timer which is used to set off bombs. There may be a peg through the dial in order that, when the timer runs out, the bomb can explode. People who park their cars normally do not need that kind of interference with their timers.
However, the law is not enough without the resources to bring suspects to court. Recently, we have seen the most barbaric, bloody saga of tit-for-tat killings carried out by mindless killers, most of them so-called loyalists. These are not the spectacular human bomb attacks, but seemingly daily killings for the sake of killing. They are not always in what, in England, would tend to be called "Indian country". They happen throughout the Province, including my own area, and I do not live in "Indian country". Such an increase shows a reduction in the deterrent value of the security forces. Crime statistics in Great Britain

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are used to show such trends. There was a Question today relating to the numbers of police and the prevention of crime. I believe that I heard my noble friend Lord Ferrers say that there would be an increase of perhaps 700 policemen in response to the statistics. I am glad to hear that. It is clear that, although no reasonable amount of resources will ever stop all terrorist activity, there is an optimum level above which terrorists and tit-for-tat murderers cannot run rings around the security forces in all areas at the same time, as we have seen recently.
It is common knowledge that the RUC has consistently requested an increase in manpower of over 400 during the last few years. Why is the only fully automatic fingerprinting machine in the Metropolitan Police headquarters in London? Police and military commanders have requested more soldiers. I do not normally call for more troops. However, the CLF and his staff must know their business. If the House can so easily respond to an increase in crime within the remainder of the United Kingdom, I wonder why it does not happen for us in Northern Ireland.
In my local village of Brookeborough three months ago, a good friend of mine, Collum Stevenson, an ex-policeman, was shot dead. During the previous months, there had been two other attempts, both investigated by the security forces. Are we saying that, after continuing murder attempts within a few months in a little village five miles from the border on the main Belfast-Enniskillen road, the security forces were incapable of preventing his murder at the third attempt? That is only an example. There have been other cases.
The Government may say, "But where does the money come from?". Let us look at the alternative that we are experiencing at present, let alone all the people who have been killed since Christmas. In one day, several stores were fire bombed. The cost was £25 million. A reassessment of the priorities should take place urgently.
There is much frustration in all circles in Northern Ireland that the security policy is not more successful. However, let us guard against the pitfalls of ill-advised statements such as a recent one from the normally well respected Archbishop Cahal Daly. He talked about withdrawing military protection from the RUC in strongly Republican areas. He knows perfectly well, because he talks to the RUC, that it will not go to those areas without that protection. So I suppose that security should be withdrawn in the face of terrorism. The archbishop's statement was not very useful. We know what happens when the security forces are withdrawn from areas. There is no doubt about it: we have terrorism; we have knee jobs, head jobs and murders.
I support the legislation and look forward to a better future in the Province. Perhaps I may reassure noble Lords. We are always talking about the lack of powers of the judiciary and the system in Northern Ireland. Perhaps I may quote last week's News Letter in Northern Ireland whose headline was:
"Are you tight there, Michael?".
The article stated:
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"A train ran over a man who lived to tell the tale, Craigavon Magistrates' Court was told yesterday. Michael McAvoy, 23, was found unhurt after a train passed over him. McAvoy, of Shankill Street, Lurgan, was fined £20 for trespassing on the line and £65 for being drunk at the time. Magistrate Fergus McCartan said the `bizarre incident could only have happened in a Hollywood film'. … The police and an ambulance were called but McAvoy had not been injured. Patrick Moriarity, defending, said his client was 'glad to be alive, because he could very easily have been killed'. He said McAvoy had a drink problem and, amid laughter, the RM remarked: 'He very nearly cured it'. Mr. Moriarity said the escape had a profound effect on McAvoy, so much so that he had joined Alcoholics Anonymous".
1.17 p.m.
Lord Fitt: My Lords, I intervene for only a few moments to give the House something of my experience. When the emergency legislation was going through another place in 1973, I opposed it with great vehemence and supported many amendments to the original legislation. One amendment which I supported then and which I have felt justified in continuing to support throughout the years that have elapsed since is that the Diplock courts should have more than one judge. They should have either three judges or assessors. I know that the existence of that one judge causes great resentment in Northern Ireland.
If it is about anything, the legislation is about attempting to isolate the terrorist to make certain that he does not have any support within the community. I know from experience—and it must he obvious to anyone who knows the situation in Northern Ireland—that the IRA, as a terrorist organisation, could not exist if it did not receive support from a significant section of the Catholic community in Northern Ireland. There is absolutely no doubt, nor can there be any querying of it, that far too many Catholics—members of the minority religion of which I am a member—give succour and support to the IRA. One must ask why they give such support. Is it because Catholics are now being ill-treated and classed as second-class citizens and because they are not being given the social justice and understanding to which they should be entitled?
There was a time when that could have been said, a time when the Catholic community was seriously mistreated by a succession of Unionist Governments. I was myself a victim of that mistreatment. That was why I played a reasonably prominent part in the 1960s in the demand for civil rights in Northern Ireland. Since then Labour and Conservative administrations at Westminster have put through legislation which to a large extent has remedied the grievances which have existed in Northern Ireland within the Catholic community. As I read newspaper reports and maintain contact with Northern Ireland, I am happy to say that Catholics can now aspire to the most prominent and eminent positions in government, the Civil Service and local government. They would not have had that opportunity before the imposition of direct rule.
What is it that still makes Catholics give their support to organisations such as the IRA? There are many historical reasons. Many of the hostilities that exist in that community, or indeed any other part of

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the United Kingdom, can never be remedied by legislation put through this House. The memories and hostilities have existed for a period of about 400 years and many of them will never be erased until, as some see it, there is a united Ireland and the border is abolished. It is hard to foresee the day when there will be absolute peace in Northern Ireland. I would certainly support what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in wishing the present Secretary of State every success in his attempts to find a political solution, although one must have serious doubts about it. If and when such a solution is found it will not stop the men of terror and violence in Northern Ireland.
When one condemns the violence of the IRA one does so because it has been so obvious over the past 21 years. One must be ever mindful of the terrorist tactics of so-called Loyalist or Protestant organisations. Since the House broke up for the Easter Recess I have listened to Radio 4 every morning. Over a period of 18 days it was announced that 10 people had been killed. That may not mean an awful lot to people here but to the relatives of those victims and their communities in Northern Ireland it means a lot. Reviewing the latest catalogue of horrible murders, one thinks immediately of the two young girls killed mercilessly in a mobile shop in Portadown. The circumstances and ramifications of those atrocious murders and the emotional effects on those within the communities of Northern Ireland had to be experienced to be believed.
There was a time when I would have gone into the lobbies and voted against legislation of this kind, but the years which have elapsed and the coffins I have carried to the various cemeteries have made me recognise that in Northern Ireland there is an emergency. The suggestion has been made by a former Secretary of State that we should not refer to this as emergency legislation but as special powers. Given the experience he has had of Northern Ireland, I should have thought he would have known that the special powers Act 1922 applying to Northern Ireland was a major source of the uprising and discontent that took place. The term "special powers" has a particular connotation in Northern Ireland which would inflame even the most moderate of people in the minority community.
This Bill has two added provisions to take account of racketeering. I believe this to be a very important inclusion. It used to be thought in this House and in another place that the major source of IRA finance came from the Noraid organisation in America. Undoubtedly, a lot of finance came from that source, but from my own knowledge and what I hear from people living in Northern Ireland, the majority of the finance is generated from racketeering within the island of Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland. I believe the Government should spare no effort in an attempt to deal with that source of finance, because without finance the IRA cannot continue to pay its volunteers or to buy more arms. By the way, I think there are so many arms lying buried in the Republic of Ireland that the IRA will have a source of supply for years ahead.
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The noble Lord, Lord Colnbrook, said the IRA was a small group. No one has ever been able to ascertain just how small or large it is. A statistic given to me recently indicates there are more Catholics in the RUC in Northern Ireland (over 1,000) than IRA activists involved in terrorism. I believe that gives an indication that only a little part of the Catholic community supports the activities of the IRA.
This legislation should be designed to counter terrorism but, most of all, to take account of the feelings of the minority community and to drag them away from giving any form of tacit support to the men of violence. It is readily understood in Northern Ireland that the so-called Loyalist terrorist is more easily arrested and sentenced because the Protestant community has more faith in the security forces and does not give the same support to so-called Loyalist terrorists as that given by Catholics to the IRA.
I hope that when the Bill goes through its Committee stage the Government will listen to those Members of this House who are concerned to see the eradication of terrorism from Northern Ireland. The best way to do that is to ensure that the security forces—the British Army, the RUC and the UDR in particular—do nothing which will in any way antagonise those members of the Catholic community whom we are trying to dissuade from giving support to terrorism.
An awful responsibility rests on the shoulders of every member of the security forces, in particular the soldiers of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the RUC. It is in their interests not to antagonise the minority community and to bend over backwards to ensure that the minority Catholic community is convinced of their impartiality and that they are acting, not as a bigoted or sectarian force, but in the interest of the whole community. If we can ensure the legislation is so designed that it will isolate the terrorist from the Catholic community, to a great extent we shall have succeeded in bringing about peace in Northern Ireland in the years that lie ahead.
1.30 p.m.
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in the debate on the Second Reading of this Bill. It has been not only a thorough but also an extremely well-informed debate. In particular, I should like to say a word of thanks to the noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Holme of Cheltenham, for their support on behalf of their parties for the need for special provisions to deal with the terrorist situation in Northern Ireland. Both noble Lords asked penetrating questions and made trenchant comments about individual clauses in the Bill. I shall attempt to answer some of those questions. These are matters to which we shall return later when the House is in Committee. However, I repeat that I am grateful for the noble Lords' general support.
Perhaps I may give one example of what I mean. There are entirely new provisions in the Bill on racketeering. The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, has just spoken about that matter in a most supportive way. My noble friend Lord Colnbrook also spoke in support from his previous experience. In this context,

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I was also grateful for the words of my noble friend Lord Lyell who quite rightly drew attention in certain respects to the similarity of these provisions with the serious fraud legislation which is already on the statute book.
Perhaps I may also say how right I thought it that my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale spoke about the good things in life that are to be found in Northern Ireland. It is the case—if I may say so from my much briefer experience than his—that through their own hard work and integrity, many people in Northern Ireland have made it a pleasant and prosperous land. Prosperity is a very important element in the fight against terrorism.
Having said that, we are faced with a terrorist situation which is a very great danger to individuals and a scourge to Northern Ireland society. It is the duty of government to respond by ensuring that the law in Northern Ireland enables the police, supported by the armed forces and the courts, to protect the public and deal effectively with terrorism. I echo what my noble friend Lord Colville said in his report. We must ensure that the law is equipped to deal with changes in terrorist tactics and with developments in terrorist capabilities. That is the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, who asked me, as he had every right to do, why there was a need for this Bill now.
I say in passing that the Government agree with my noble friend Lord Colville that the case for emergency provisions needs to be made out afresh on a regular basis and a decision taken by Parliament on their retention. That is the proper way to proceed with temporary provisions dealing with an emergency—that word has been commented on in this debate and I shall not comment upon it myself, but the word is emergency—and it is the reason why the Government gave both the 1987 and 1988 Acts a fixed five-year life. But the principal recommendation which came out of the Colville report—and the Government agree with it—is that the main emergency provisions remain necessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, took the Government to task for not accepting many of the recommendations—as the noble Lord asserted—for safeguards. With respect, I do not think that that is so. The Government have accepted the recommendation to create an enabling power to make codes of practice relating to the exercise by the police and armed forces of their powers under the emergency legislation. That is an important step forward. Taken together with the publication of the guide to the emergency powers, it is a clear indication of the Government's commitment to the disciplined exercise of emergency powers. That is a point that was made forcefully and eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, at the end of his speech.
But in addition we have taken very seriously the report's observations on armed forces' complaints procedures. The noble Lord will certainly recognise that. The announcement has been made today about bringing forward amendments so far as that is concerned. The report made a number of other proposals concerning access to families and solicitors and we are considering those sympathetically. The
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only substantive recommendation in regard to safeguards that we rejected concerned video recording. That was a matter on which both the noble Lord, Lord Holme (who made it clear that there would come a moment when he would simply have to leave the Chamber) and the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, spoke.
I assure noble Lords that we have carefully considered the recommendations of the report in respect of that matter. We acknowledge the concern about interrogation procedures. It is therefore with some regret that the Government have concluded that it would be wrong to introduce video recording of interviews with terrorists. In the Government's view, the essential position remains that which was set out in the report of the Bennett commission of inquiry into interrogation procedures in Northern Ireland. It recommended that closed circuit television should be installed in the holding centres under the supervision of a uniformed inspector or chief inspector but that video recordings should not be introduced. The report concluded that:
"the argument that recording increases the inhibitions of the suspect is perhaps less forceful in relation to video recording than in relation to tape recording, but it does not disappear entirely … the evidence of our police witnesses, and our own impression, is that some suspects need to be allowed certain room for manoeuvre in what story they tell afterwards if they are to he frank with the police at the time when they are interviewed".
I should not want noble Lords to think that I am simply putting that aside and saying that that has gone. It is a matter which I know noble Lords take seriously. I have listened carefully to what has been said and I should like to give further thought before we come to the next stage of the Bill.
Several noble Lords spoke about executive detention. Briefly, having carefully considered the Colville report, we feel, nonetheless, that it is an option that we need to retain on the statute book because, as the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, reminded us in his speech, the terrorist threat remains acute. As my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale argued very strongly, given the seriousness of the threat, the Government do not regard it as sensible to close off options which could be available. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked me to put in the Library a list of the countries which have executive detention. I shall write to the noble Lord, placing a copy in the Library, and do my best to reply to him. Of course, at the very head of the list of countries which retain executive detention is the Republic of Ireland.
Lord Prys-Davies: My Lords, two wrongs do not make a right.
Lord Belstead: I shall not, my Lords, cross swords with the noble Lord about that at the moment. However, standing so close to the problems of terrorism, perhaps it is just worth the noble Lord considering that possibly two countries may have some reason for maintaining what they do not wish to maintain on the statute book but feel that perhaps they need to do so at the present time. Let me leave that particular point because I think we shall be returning to it.

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My noble friend Lord Colnbrook, from his considerable experience—here I give the point to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies—said that he had reservations about this matter. I consider it important that my noble friend reminded us that when he was in office as Secretary of State, he introduced the provision by which the Government had to come back to Parliament within 40 days if detention were to be brought into effect. I hope that your Lordships will attach some importance to that provision.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised the issue of Clause 22 which concerns the examination of documents. I was most grateful to my noble friend Lord Brookeborough for outlining so clearly the need to have that power. Because people forget things, terrorists must and do commit to paper important terrorist information. That is why this provision is in Clause 22 of the Bill.
The noble Lord, perfectly reasonably, said that one has the exception for legal documents and asked how that would be protected. I ask him to look later on with some care at Clause 22(3). It contains the exclusion for those items subject to legal privilege. Nevertheless it will be apparent to your Lordships that the police and armed forces will need to see such items in order to ensure that they fall into the excluded category. Otherwise it would be open to anyone simply to claim from the back of the car in which they were sitting that the documents were subject to legal privilege without more ado. However, Clause 22(3) makes it clear that as soon as a member of the armed forces has reasonable cause for believing a document to be an item subject to legal privilege, the examination of that document must cease. That is an important safeguard which I hope will be welcomed by the House. Of course there are other provisions in the clause which make it clear that the person undertaking the search has to write down what the search does and who has been conducting it. I believe that that is a very real safeguard.
It may further reassure noble Lords to know that it is the intention of the Chief Constable of the RUC and the General Officer Commanding Northern Ireland to issue force orders to the police and armed forces on the exercise of that power; and I believe that training will play an important part.
The noble Lord also spoke about the new offence of possession. He said that he would have preferred the draft offence of my noble friend Lord Colville. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, questioned the application of the offence for possession of items at home. Clause 30 is based pretty closely on the proposals of my noble friend Lord Colville. It was he who suggested that the new offence would need to be applied to possession of items at home. I refer noble Lords to the report of my noble friend Lord Colville when he said that the idea is adaptable to possession of such items at home. I regret to say that the police and armed forces have plenty of evidence of homes being used in Northern Ireland for the construction of improvised explosive devices —mortar bombs and other weapons. That is what we are after in Clause 30.
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The noble Lord, Lord Holme, at the same time attacked the vagueness of "article". He believed that it was too wide. It is the essence of the offence that the combination of articles, together with time, place and circumstances, need to be sufficient to prove guilt. Those are the elements that have to be present. The clause makes it clear that it is a defence for a person charged with the offence to prove that at the time of the alleged offence the article in question was not in his possession for such a purpose connected with the commission, investigation, instigation or preparation of acts of terrorism. My noble friend Lord Colnbrook said that he was glad to understand that because there are such apparently everyday items which, in certain hands, can cause such terrible tragedies. My noble friend referred in particular to tilt switches.
I have deliberately gone into some detail because I hope that the noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Holme, may feel, when they have had the opportunity to consider what I said, that the drafting of the clause is tight and, I hope, fair.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised what is almost the most important point today, as the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, said. It is the need for civility by the security forces in particular towards a community which finds itself in a minority in an area. Perhaps I may put it that way. The Government are at one with Archbishop Daly in believing that the public has the right to expect the very highest standards from its servants in the police and the army. That is why, in answer to the Question in another place last November, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said that it is one of the matters which we very much have in our sights at all times. That is why I spoke at some length about army complaints when I began my speech.
The offence of directing was raised by the noble Lord. Lord Holme. I shall not refer to that today. He also spoke about taxi firms and racketeering. That is a very important point. As I believe some noble Lords will be well aware, it has been publicly reported for many years that certain taxi firms and associations operating in Northern Ireland have made substantial contributions to terrorist organisations. The RUC is aware of the problem and action and certain inquiries continue. Your Lordships would not wish me to say more on that today.
My noble friend Lord Brookeborough spoke about force levels. To put the matter on the record, there are currently 12,778 members of the RUC and RUC Reserve in Northern Ireland. Yes, there has been a bid for an addition to the RUC. However, my mind goes back to 17 years ago when I worked in Northern Ireland. I believe that I am right in saying that the numbers in the RUC were about one third of the numbers today. Therefore, there have been increases as the years have gone by, and, quite rightly, for this, the most hard-pressed police force in the United Kingdom. The number of soldiers in Northern Ireland at the present time is over 16,500, with—let us never forget—over 6,000 of those splendid men and women of the Ulster Defence Regiment. I hope that my noble friend will forgive me if I do not speak further on that today.

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My noble friend spoke also about permanent vehicle checkpoints. I take on board what he said about wanting to make them better. He knows about the matter from personal experience of living in Northern Ireland. He is absolutely right. We have to try to make checkpoints work as well as they can. However, the money for that has to come out of the same purse as the money for everything else in Northern Ireland. We shall do our best. I have taken on board what my noble friend said.
The issue of the Diplock courts was raised. If the noble Lords, Lord Holme and Lord Fitt, will forgive me, I shall not speak on the individual points that they made. However, my noble friend Lord Colnbrook asked a specific question about the right of appeal against judgments in Diplock courts. He asked whether those rights of appeal compare very well with appeals from other courts. The facts that I have are these. In the majority of cases before the Diplock courts, the accused pleads guilty. In those cases where a not guilty plea is made, the rate of acquittals is almost the same as the rate from ordinary jury trials. However, the number of successful appeals also compares favourably with the number from ordinary courts. I hope that your Lordships will take comfort from those statistics. I shall not today go down other roads which were opened up by what was said about Diplock courts. We can return to that.
I conclude by thanking your Lordships again for taking part in the debate. Without wishing in any way to sound complacent—because Northern Ireland legislation is the last area where one should have any complacency—I believe that the case for the Bill in principle has been made out in today's debate. The Bill would not represent any change in the Government's security policy in Northern Ireland, however, which remains that terrorism must be defeated through the resolute and even-handed application of the criminal law. I commend the Bill to your Lordships' House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Arms Control and Disarmament (Inspections) Bill [H.L.]
1.48 p.m.
Lord Reay: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Caithness, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
The Bill will enable effect to be given in the law of the United Kingdom to the protocol on inspection of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe. The purpose of the Bill is twofold: first, to create rights of access, entry and inspection for the purposes of conducting challenge inspections under the protocol on inspection; secondly, to confer certain privileges and immunities on inspectors and transport crew members in connection with all inspections under the protocol.
The CFE treaty was signed at Paris on 19th November 1990 by 22 states, all 16 members of the North Atlantic Alliance (including of course the United Kingdom) and six states which were members
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of the Warsaw Pact (including the Soviet Union). It is a fundamental stage in the negotiations on conventional armed forces in Europe. It is to be followed by negotiations to limit manpower and by further measures which will enhance stability and openness in military affairs in Europe.
The treaty is of necessity detailed and technical. For the purposes of the Bill it is sufficient to note that certain categories of conventional armaments and equipment—for example, battle tanks, armoured combat vehicles, artillery, combat aircraft and attack helicopters—are limited by the treaty. These are known as treaty limited equipment (TLEs). The limitations apply within the area of application of the treaty, which is the European land area from the Atlantic to the Urals. Each state has to limit, and if necessary reduce —that is, to destroy or convert to other use—its holdings of treaty limited equipment to specific numbers. The treaty includes detailed provisions on the exchange of information and on verification.
Verification is contained in the Protocol on Inspection. The inspection regime is two-pronged. First, the treaty creates the concept of an object of verification. That means a military unit or installation at which treaty limited equipment is regularly present or is normally held; for example, storage sites or sites where the destruction of equipment takes place. Parties will declare where they are located and what equipment is held there. At such declared sites no party is entitled to refuse inspection of objects of verification except in certain limited circumstances. In practice, in the United Kingdom all objects of verification would be government owned or controlled. We can therefore ensure that access can be given as required by the treaty without the need for legislation.
A second important part of verification is provided by the so-called challenge inspection of specified geographical areas. These provisions mark a new and very welcome step in arms control verification. They are designed to give each party the right to inspect any place in another party's territory, whether government controlled or not, in order to ensure that the provisions of the treaty are not being avoided; for example, by relocation of treaty limited equipment away from military premises or by the failure to declare all objects of verification. It is likely that challenge inspections will usually be made at military sites which are not declared sites (that is, those which do not have objects of verification present at them); for example, other Government controlled sites or large industrial warehouses owned or controlled perhaps by major defence contractors. But the treaty gives inspectors the right to inspect any building or site within the United Kingdom capable of holding treaty limited equipment or to demand access to any area to check for the presence of treaty limited equipment, subject again to certain rights of refusal.
In summary, the essential elements of the challenge inspection regime are: first, that the Government must be able to secure access to any premises or sites within specified areas chosen by the inspecting country; secondly, the right to refuse access in certain

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circumstances lies with the Government, not the owner of private premises; thirdly, in practice, under the time limits agreed in the treaty, there will he no time to allow the owner or occupier of premises to argue before a court that his premises should not be inspected.
I turn now to the provisions of the Bill. Clause 1 defines certain expressions and introduces the schedule in which relevant provisions of the inspection protocol are set out for ease of reference. Clauses 2 to 4 empower the Secretary of State to issue authorisations enabling inspectors to exercise rights of access, entry and unobstructed inspection in accordance with the inspection protocol. As I have explained, this power is required because the inspectors are entitled under the protocol to conduct an inspection on privately owned premises. In practice, the rights in question are hardly likely to be needed: inspectors are likely to be most interested in government controlled sites. But it is, for example, possible that inspectors might wish to enter factories making military equipment. These clauses provide also for escort and police assistance and create offences necessary for the enforcement of these powers.
Clause 5 confers specified privileges and immunities on inspectors and transport crew members. These are the same as those conferred in 1988 on inspectors under the INF treaty. It is necessary that our own inspectors enjoy such immunities and privileges operating in other countries (for example, in the Soviet Union) and we therefore have to accord them on a reciprocal basis. The number of persons involved will not be large and they will be present in the United Kingdom for short periods only.
The CFE treaty will apply throughout Europe so it is necessary to have power to extend the Bill to those territories listed in Clause 6.
Before concluding, I must explain why the Government have introduced this Bill, even though difficulties remain with Soviet compliance—difficulties which, if not resolved satisfactorily, threaten the entry into force of the treaty. The Government continue to urge the Soviet Union to remedy these matters and my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have taken them up with Mr. Gorbachev and the Soviet authorities directly. The most serious is the claim by the Soviet Union that equipment in naval infantry and coastal defence units does not count against treaty ceilings. No reading of the treaty can justify this claim. The position taken on this issue by the Soviet Union creates considerable difficulties for the process of ratification of the treaty: the other 21 signatories have been unanimous in calling on the Soviet Union to comply with the spirit and letter of the treaty. Discussions continue and we hope that the Soviet Union will soon comply fully and effectively with the treaty.
The Bill will be brought into force only when all 22 parties have ratified the treaty. However, we need the Bill in the present Session so that the United Kingdom will be in a position to ratify the treaty swiftly when circumstances permit. Without the Bill we could find
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ourselves holding up entry into force of the treaty and I am sure that none of your Lordships would wish that to happen.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Reay.)
1.56 p.m.
Lord Richard: My Lords, we on these Benches—at least me on this Bench on behalf of my absent noble friends—welcome the Bill and shall assist in its passage this afternoon. There is no doubt that the CFE treaty is a remarkable step forward in terms of disarmament and the relationship between the nations of the Warsaw Pact and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. We welcome the treaty and hope that in due course the process will be continued so that we can move from CFE 1 to CFE 2. It is that right that the CFE treaty sets out the most intrusive verification regime ever contained in any arms control agreement. It addresses two major concerns. The first is whether information about equipment holdings at military sites is correct. The second is whether the parties to the treaty can be sure that no significant stocks of military equipment are kept elsewhere.
The verification regime allows us to check that equipment due for destruction has been destroyed. It also gives us access to military sites in order to verify exactly the numbers of each type of equipment notified as being there and to follow up the explanations given for any discrepancies. We can also visit any other site which could hold equipment limited by the treaty in order to check that there is none there. Comparable rights are given to the other parties to the treaty. Therefore there is an obligation on the UK to facilitate this right of challenge inspection, which although not totally unrestricted is undoubtedly a breakthrough.
The Minister has referred to the difficulties that appear to have arisen in the way of ratification of the treaty because of action taken by the Soviet Union. There are two problems. The first is that the Soviet Union is alleged to have removed tanks designated for destruction under the CFE treaty east of the Urals. The second difficulty is that it has reclassified three motorised infantry units involving up to 900 tanks as coastal defence units, which are not covered by the treaty. I was interested to hear the Minister say that the Government are pressing the Soviet Union about that. Am I to understand that similar pressure is being applied by our allies and in particular by the United States of America? I believe that Congress has not yet ratified the treaty. Is it still right to say that one of the difficulties in the way of ratification by Congress is precisely the point to which the noble Lord referred?
I have three detailed questions which I do not believe will take the Foreign Office by surprise. First, on page 2 the Bill states:
"Where a request to conduct a challenge inspection within any specified area in the United Kingdom has been made … the Secretary of State may issue an authorisation under this section in respect of that inspection".
Why is the word "may" used? If we wish the treaty to be a success, should it not be rather firmer than merely giving a discretion to the Secretary of State. If he has that discretion, under what circumstances will he

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exercise the discretion so as to refuse the request to conduct a challenge inspection? It seems to me that unless the Government can spell out the circumstances in which there is a possible refusal, to leave that discretion expressed in the Bill in this form seems to me to be giving the wrong signal to the Soviet Union as to our readiness to allow challenge inspections within the terms of the Bill.
Secondly, challenge inspections and the right of access are clearly important. There is no point in having the right to a challenge inspection on a non-military site unless it is possible to get there. It is right that the Government should facilitate the right of entry of the inspection team onto that site. However, if that is so fundamental to the treaty, I do not understand why under Clause 3 the maximum penalty for the offence of resisting or blocking that right, which becomes an offence by an individual if he wilfully obstructs any member of the inspection team, is £400. That is an almost derisory penalty for an offence which in certain circumstances could be quite extraordinarily important.
Subject to those points of detail, I merely reiterate that my party welcomes this Bill. We regard it as an important piece of legislation in bringing into practice the regime envisaged in the CFE treaty. We wish that process well. We hope that fairly soon it can move from CFE 1 into the direction of CFE 2.
2.2 p.m.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, my noble friends on these Benches wish me to express our very warm support for the Bill and to repeat what we have said often; namely, that we warmly congratulate the Government and all those who have been involved in bringing the CFE treaty to an agreement.
Reading this Bill and especially reading the schedule to it, one is struck by the extraordinary proof it constitutes of change in the relationships between Eastern and Western Europe. A few years ago who would have thought that the Russians and the Warsaw Pact countries would sign a protocol in the detail set out in this Bill, giving away every shred of secrecy in military affairs? Were it not for the fact that the Russians are now dragging their feet on the implementation of the treaty, our joy over the arms control and disarmament Bill would be unconfined.
The breakage of the spirit of the treaty, if not the treaty itself, by the Soviet Union is a profound disappointment. It is very difficult to understand the motives behind it. The breaches make no serious differences in the balance of military power. Some of them do not breach the letter of the CFE treaty. It seems to me that the breaches are wholly unintended by the Gorbachev Government and of course by the former members of the Warsaw Pact. I was most interested to hear from the Minister that the members of the Warsaw Pact are condemning those breaches and are using such influence as they have on the Soviet Union to overcome them.
One assumes that the Soviet military resents the remarkable concessions which Mr. Gorbachev has made not only in his withdrawals from Eastern Europe but in the disarmament negotiations. It must
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be said that although the West has made concessions, the major concessions have been made from the Soviet side and Mr. Gorbachev. It is reasonable to suppose that that has caused resentment and hostility among the military high-ups in Moscow. They are getting their own back in a rather foolish way by this essentially trivial cheating against the CFE treaty. Possibly, if they have a sense of humour, they may feel that there is a major justification for the designation of three armoured divisions as naval coastal defence in such a way that they can have three more armoured divisions within the letter of the treaty on land between the Urals and the Atlantic.
I believe that it is the view of my noble friends, and it is certainly my view, that the western countries should have included the navies of East and West in disarmament negotiations. It would he an ironic twist if the failure of the West to allow disarmament to proceed in naval matters had led to this sleight of hand by which the Soviet military high-ups have re-categorised three armoured divisions as naval forces.
Perhaps the Minister can give more information about what is the present situation. The targets and timetables are set out in the treaty. However, is disarmament taking place? We know that withdrawals are taking place. Are arms being stored? I should value more information on that.
The Joint Consultative Group set up by the CFE Treaty was meant to smooth over precisely the kind of hiccups we are now unfortunately seeing in its implementation. How often does the Joint Consultative Group meet? Is it making any positive impact on the situation? My feeling is that the Soviet Government do not want hitches in the disarmament process. They want and need, as much as they ever did, rapid agreed disarmament in Europe. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us a little more on that point.
On television the other day I saw Mr. Shevardnadze, whose influence is very much missed, I am afraid, in East-West relations at this time. I remember him saying quite frankly that he could see no justification for the evasions of the CFE Treaty made by the current Soviet Government. He was then speaking for Mr. Gorbachev and the government, and was saying that what was needed was the smack of firm government in the Soviet Union vis-a-vis the military leadership.
Those remarks are by the way. My noble friends and I congratulate those who have produced not only the CFE Treaty, but also this amazingly detailed provision for inspection and monitoring. We hope that the process can soon be set in motion, as was decided in November last year at the CFE Treaty-signature meeting.
2.9 p.m.
Lord Reay: My Lords, I am grateful to the two noble Lords for the broad support that they have given to the Bill, and for their appreciation of the novel features that it contains.
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, asked one or two questions. There were two matters regarding the Soviet Union. One was in regard to the equipment

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withdrawn east of the Urals. That is a serious problem. It is not strictly a treaty violation but it goes against the spirit of the treaty. The reclassification to naval unit is a serious treaty violation. It is one about which we and all our allies, including the United States and the Eastern European countries, are pressing the Soviet Union hard.
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, is correct that those are the reasons we are not prepared to ratify at the moment. We are not aware that any NATO ally intends to deposit the instrument of ratification of the treaty under the present circumstances. The United States administration said that it will not submit the treaty for advice and consent of the Senate until the Article 3 problem has been resolved. The United Kingdom does not propose to ratify the treaty pending discussions with the Soviet Union on those matters.
The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, asked about Soviet withdrawal from Eastern Europe. I understand that the withdrawal of the Soviet forces from the former GDR and other East European countries is proceeding largely on schedule; only Poland has not yet fixed a firm date for complete withdrawal of the Soviet forces, but we do not expect an insuperable problem to arise.
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, raised the question of why Clause 2(1) says "may" rather than "shall". The point is that the Government can refuse a challenge inspection. Therefore in our view it would not be appropriate to impose an obligation on the Secretary of State to issue an authorisation for access. There are also circumstances in which an authorisation is not necessary; for example, if an entire specified area for a challenge inspection contained only government-controlled sites or premises.
The noble Lord asked about the circumstances in which an authorisation might be refused by the Secretary of State. We envisage that challenge inspection would only be refused for overriding reasons of national security. However, it would not he proper in the national interest to restrict the Secretary of State's powers in the Bill to do so.
The noble Lord further asked about the level of fines for refusal to comply with access requests or obstructions, and why they are set at £400. Those offences are to be summary offences that carry a fine not exceeding Level 3 on the standard scale, which is currently £400. That is the normal maximum for this kind of offence of obstructing the police.
The noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, raised the question of inclusion of naval forces in arms control. Naval forces are explicitly excluded from CFE by terms of the mandate and we do not believe that it would be right to add them now. He asked also about the Joint Consultative Group. All 22 CFE parties meet regularly to discuss CFE implementation problems in the group. It does good work in detail, but the current Soviet problems over CFE require critical input at the highest level.
As I said in my introductory remarks, the CFE treaty is part of a process; it is a stage in the negotiations on conventional armed forces in Europe.
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It is the most far-reaching arms control agreement ever negotiated. When fully implemented, it will enhance stability, security and confidence in Europe. The Government will continue to work for full implementation of the treaty by all signatories. We hope that the problems which have arisen over compliance with the treaty can be resolved soon so that it can be brought into force and Eastern and Western Europe can begin to enjoy the benefits of it. I commend the Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Oversea Superannuation Bill
2.15 p.m.
Lord Reay: My Lords. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Noble Lords may be unaware that the Overseas Development Administration, which is responsible for the implementation of Her Majesty's Government's aid programme, also has an important responsibility for pensions. The ODA is custodian of the pension rights of many thousands of officers and their dependants who served in the former colonies and in the Asian sub-continent. Those men and women were the predecessors of the technical assistance officers whom the ODA now appoints to the service of overseas governments.
Certain research and scientific officers who worked in the colonies under the auspices of the Colonial Secretary were not employed on the permanent establishments of the territories and did not, therefore, benefit from colonial government pension schemes. The Oversea Superannuation Scheme (OSS) was set up in 1951, under its original name the Colonial Superannuation Scheme, to cater for those officers. The OSS has always been a small scheme. It was closed to new members as long ago as 1961. There are no active contributors and it now has 151 pensioners. Administrative costs at about £25,000 continue to constitute a substantial burden on the fund's finances at roughly 25 per cent. of the pension bill. In finalisation of its wider policy on colonial pension funds, ODA is proposing to convert the fund to a pay-as-you-go system.
Under this arrangement the assets of the fund are made over to the Exchequer, in exchange for an undertaking to pay the pensions out of current revenue. The proposal has been approved by the OSS Advisory Board and all the scheme's members have been consulted. All members of the scheme will benefit from having their pension guaranteed by the Exchequer. It will remove the element of risk inherent in all pension funds. In order to proceed with eventual conversion to the pay-as-you-go system, ODA needs to bring the OSS within the scope of the Overseas Pensions Act 1973. The OSS is now the only fund under ODA jurisdiction which does not fall within the remit of that Act. The Bill, when it becomes law, will remove that anomaly. Conversion will be cost-neutral for the Exchequer and there are no manpower implications for the public service. This is an enabling,

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tidying-up Bill designed to rationalise the status of this colonial pension fund. I hope your Lordships will give it your support.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—[Lord Reay.]
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, we are grateful to the Minister, who has made a clear exposition of this small but nevertheless very sensible adjustment which is contained in the Bill. It seems perfectly acceptable to us on these Benches to bring the Oversea Superannuation Scheme within the scope of the Overseas Pensions Act 1973, thereby giving the Overseas Development Administration authority, I suppose one can say, to de-fund the scheme. As the Minister has said, that would convert the scheme into a pay-as-you-go system. This is a wise change, as the Minister said, to remedy an anomaly which still exists.
Perhaps the Minister will answer one question. What arrangements will be made for the Hong Kong Civil Service officers when the transfer of sovereignty takes place, or has a decision not yet been taken in that regard? We very much commend this Bill from these Benches.
Lord Reay: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the support which she has given to the Bill. She asked me about Hong Kong. No decision has yet been taken on the arrangements to be made for Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service officers following the transfer of sovereignty. We hope to encourage as many HMOCS officers as possible to stay in Hong Kong after 1997. Various options are being discussed with the Hong Kong Government.
This is a short Bill. It will bring the Oversea Superannuation Scheme, as I have said, within the scope of the Overseas Pensions Act 1973. Some of the scheme's 151 beneficiaries stand to make small gains and none stands to lose anything from the change. Administrative savings in excess of £20,000 a year in management costs will result once it is converted to a pay-as-you-go arrangement. These are not vast benefits, but they are nonetheless benefits. I commend the Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past two o'clock.

  POLITICAL UNION: INTER-GOVERNMENTAL CONFERENCE
  POLITICAL UNION: INTER-GOVERNMENTAL CONFERENCE
  FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL, 15th APRIL
  FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL, 15th APRIL