Sitting of 27 November 1990

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS
    LONDON DOCKLANDS RAILWAY BILL
    Read the Third time, and passed.
    MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BILL [Lords]
      NORTH YORKS:HIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords]
      Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    Education Expenditure
    Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has been the increase in absolute spending on education, in total and per pupil, since 1979.
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): Direct spending on nursery, primary and secondary schools in England rose from some £4·2 billion in 1979–80 to some £9·2 billion in the latest outturn year, 1988–89. This represents an increase in spending per pupil from some £515 in 1979–80 to £1,360 in 1988–89. That is a real-terms increase over and above inflation of more than 40 per cent.
    Mr. Hague: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the figures given in his answer, even when adjusted for inflation, help to explain why most schools are far better equipped for a modern education than they were 10 years ago and have a much better pupil-teacher relationship than they had 10 years ago? Does he also agree that high-quality education does not depend solely on a massive increase in resources, as some Opposition Members sometimes seem to believe?
    Mr. Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I agree with him. The figures that I gave refer to the latest outturn year. The settlement for next year takes standard spending assessments up by 16 per cent., which is a further 10 per cent. ahead of inflation. I strongly agreee with my hon. Friend that with this growth of resources must come ever-better targeting and ever-better measurement of the standards being achieved in our schools through the use of those resources.
    Mr. Grocott: The Government's policy of expenditure on city technology colleges means that they are treating pupils unfairly. How can the Secretary of State possibly
    726
    justify spending £8·5 million of taxpayers' money on one school—the city technology college in Telford—when less than £8 million is being spent on all the other schools in the county? Is not it time the right hon. and learned Gentleman listened to the overwhelming representations that he has had from all sections of the community and scrapped this unfair concept?
    Mr. Clarke: I think that the hon. Gentleman's perception is mistaken. The money spent on city technology colleges is not spent at the expense of other schools—it is money which would not otherwise have been spent on education. It is a policy of envy to say that Telford should not have a city technology college unless all pupils can go to it. The CTC is an attractive addition to education facilities in Telford and as the Member representing that town the hon. Gentleman should support it.
    Mr. Hunter: I welcome and applaud the increase in absolute spending. Will my right hon. and learned Friend take note that in Hampshire too much money is being held back by the education authority? Will he intensify his approaches to Hampshire education authority to ensure that money is passed on to the schools?
    Mr. Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We are looking at that very important point and will shortly issue a circular indicating the minimum amount of the total available that should be distributed to schools and the minimum amount within that total which should be based on the number of pupils in each school. That should bring each county and each education authority into line with best practice, which is exactly what my hon. Friend would wish.

    Qualifications
    Mr. Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has to reform qualifications for 16 to 19-year-olds; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Tim Eggar): We are considering proposals for the reform both of academic and of vocational qualifications for 16 to 19-year-olds.
    Mr. Turner: I thank the Minister for that answer. I think that he will agree that education provision for 16 to 19-year-olds is rather a shambles. The Minister's answer does not reflect the views about A-levels expressed by his party in the last three to four weeks. When do the Government intend to put forward firm proposals for reforming A-levels and bringing this country into the 1990s?
    Mr. Eggar: I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman. He should know perfectly well that we are awaiting proposals from the School Examinations and Assessment Council. Having considered the council's views, we shall then take into account the views of other organisations. I am also surprised at the hon. Gentleman because I should have thought that he would concentrate on the 70 per cent. of 16 to 19-year-olds for whom A-levels are not important, and especially on the need for the reform of vocational qualifications and the need to raise the esteem in which they are held compared with A-levels.
    Mr. Michael Morris: As my hon. Friend knows, more than 25 per cent. of A-level pupils come from Headmasters Conference and Headmistresses Conference schools. Will he ensure that there is full consultation with such schools before any decisions are made about a replacement for A-levels?
    Mr. Eggar: Yes, the HMC has made known its views on the SEAC principles document. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has already met it to discuss its views.
    Mr. Matthew Taylor: Given what the Minister has said about the need to raise the standing of vocational qualifications, with which I agree, does he accept that the best way to do that would be to bring together vocational and academic qualifications in one broader modular system so that the subjects that pupils choose have equal standing and pupils can study a mixture of the two?
    Mr. Eggar: If the hon. Gentleman is saying that there is a case for some form of credit transfer between vocational and academic qualifications, we shall certainly consider that. It will be important to ensure that appropriate standards are maintained for both academic and vocational streams.

    Local Management of Schools
    Mr. Anthony Coombs: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what measures he is considering to encourage local authorities to delegate more control of money to schools.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Michael Fallon): My right hon. and learned Friend and I intend to ensure that as much as is reasonably possible of the schools budget of local authorities should be delegated to schools to manage themselves. We shall be publishing a draft circular next month, which will consult on proposals to that end.
    Mr. Coombs: In illustrating the benefits of local management of schools, is my hon. Friend aware that the school of which I am chairman of governors is two teachers better off and plans next year to raise its resources by 50 per cent. as a result of LMS? Given that the proportion of non-teaching staff to total teaching staff is 35 per cent. in some authorities, such as my own, while in some Labour-controlled authorities, such as Coventry, the proportion is as high as 53 per cent., what action is my hon. Friend planning to take to ensure that resources are spent where they should be spent—in the classroom?
    Mr. Fallon: Councils are holding back between 17 and 29 per cent. of their schools budget, or between £65,000 and £228,000 per school. Those variations are huge and unacceptable. We shall be proposing a tougher limit to get more money through to the schools.
    Mr. Vaz: Does the Minister accept that in certain local authorities, such as Leicestershire, there is insufficient money in the proposed budget to pay for items such as outstanding repairs? Will he give the House the assurance that where there is a strong case for repairs to be carried out before delegation, the Government will come up with the necessary resources before the budgets are delegated?
    Mr. Fallon: Councils have substantial resources, which they are holding back at the centre. In many cases, they are spending on unnecessary bureaucracy and on central administration resources which have been siphoned off from the schools and could have been spent years ago on repairs and maintenance.
    Mr. Pawsey: Does my hon. Friend agree that the best method of delegating greater financial control from local education authorities to schools would be to persuade local education authorities to go down the grant-maintained schools route because that would ensure that schools have a better opportunity of deciding for themselves exactly where their money should be spent?
    Mr. Fallon: Yes, a grant-maintained school receives about 95 per cent. of its schools budget direct, which it can then allocate according to its own priorities. While local councils continue to hold back so much money, a vote for grant-maintained status means a vote for substantially more resources.
    Ms. Armstrong: Will the Minister confirm that every local authority budget was individually approved by his Department and that what he is actually doing is attacking those local authorities that have substantial responsibilities for spending on school transport and school meals and have held special needs provision centrally?
    Mr. Fallon: All the schemes were approved in principle by my Department, but it was only this autumn that we saw the precise figures for each of the individual items within the budgets. The problem applies even to metropolitan authorities. For example, Newcastle is holding back £199,000 per school, and the Labour-controlled metropolitan authority of Leeds is holding back more than £100,000. Unlike the Opposition, we care about those differences and we intend to do something about them.
    Mr. Franks: My hon. Friend is aware of the appalling record of Cumbria local education authority in the delegation of funds. Will he make the strongest representations to that authority? Is he aware that I welcome our right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State's statement earlier that he intends to set a minimum level of delegation?
    Mr. Fallon: Sadly, I have to tell my hon. Friend that Cumbria is by far the worst performer in the country in that respect, holding back some 28 per cent. of the money allocated, which therefore does not get through to the schools. We shall certainly ensure that the tougher limit that we propose will apply to Cumbria so that more money goes to the classrooms.

    Distance Learning
    Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has any proposals further to promote distance learning in rural areas.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Alan Howarth): The Government recognise that distance learning methods are an efficient and effective means of expanding the education opportunities available to students living in rural areas.

    729
    The Government support the Open university, and are also providing special support for the further development of open and distance learning by local authorities.
    Mr. Wallace: I welcome the Minister's positive reply. Is he aware of the whiteboard techniques adopted in Orkney in my constituency, which allow teaching from central point to be disseminated to a number of points? Does he agree that that offers opportunities to keep open schools that might otherwise be closed as well as opportunities for adult education and training? Will the Department carry out a study of what is happening in Orkney and its possible application to other rural and dispersed parts of the country?
    Mr. Howarth: I understand that not only the hon. Gentleman, but his right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), recently had the benefit of an electronic whiteboard tutorial in Orkney. I share the hon. Gentleman's view that that technology may well open up useful possibilities for students in remote areas, which could be of great benefit. The Training Agency has sponsored two pilot projects in the highlands and islands, and I look forward with interest to its evaluation of them.
    Dr. Thomas: The Minister has already mentioned the Open university. Can he confirm that the Government intend to maintain and, indeed, enhance its level of funding relative to the rest of higher education so that it can maintain its initiative in distance learning throughout the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Howarth: The capital and recurrent grants for the Open university total £79·5 million in the current year, and its block recurrent grant will rise by 8·3 per cent. in 1991. That is clear evidence of the Department's firm support for the Open university. As the hon. Gentleman knows, a review is taking place, and the Open university is playing its full part in that. The review is continuing, and conclusions will be reached in due course. Our expectation is that the Open university will find ways to develop its mission, rather than to curtail it.
    Mr. Andrew Smith: Does the Minister accept that increasing fees for courses are a deterrent for many people who would like to take the opportunity of studying with the Open university? What is the Government's specific policy on the future level of fees and on support for part-time and distance learning students? Does the Minister accept that they need better support, and what does he intend to do about it?
    Mr. Howarth: From the impressive history of the Open university in recent years, it is clear that a large number of people want to study with it and that they have not been deterred by the fees regime. The review is under way, and the issues that the hon. Gentleman raised form part of it.

    School Administration (Lancashire)
    Mr. Hind: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has any plans to meet the chief education officer of Lancashire county council to discuss the contraction of central administration and transfer of resources to schools for local management; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Fallon: My right hon. and learned Friend has no plans at present to meet the chief education officer of
    730
    Lancashire county council. However, we have made clear our general view that local education authorities should streamline their central administration so that more resources can get down to schools.
    Mr. Hind: Is my hon. Friend aware that the county council is holding back £130 million—one third of its revenue budget—for a number of items, particularly central administration? Will he join me in urging the county to spread down much of its central administration costs to schools administered by local management, where funds are much needed and would benefit the children in the classroom?
    Mr. Fallon: Yes. Lancashire's central administration alone amounts to £11·5 million. In total, Lancashire holds back 23 per cent. of its school budget—an average of £110,000 per school. Lancashire county council has much to do in releasing funds to its schools.
    Mr. Pike: Why does the Minister not meet the head teachers of Lancashire schools, when he would find out that their real complaint is not about the county council's actions but about those of the Government in not providing sufficient funds to make local management schools work, in encouraging bureaucracy, and in making it difficult for head teachers to remain educationists? Is it not time the Government did more to ensure that teachers can get on with their real job of teaching?
    Mr. Fallon: The teachers, governors and parents whom I meet are increasingly angry at the amount of money allocated to their schools being siphoned off by county hall. We are determined to do something about that.
    Mr. Favell: Should not central administration in Lancashire and in nearby Stockport be largely contracted out?
    Mr. Fallon: We believe that the schools themselves should decide on the support services that they need and the scale on which those services should be provided. Only by delegating budgets to schools can those decisions rest in the hands of head teachers and governors.

    City Technology Colleges
    Mr. Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he next plans to visit the city technology college in Nottingham to discuss the funding of city technology colleges
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I hope to arrange a visit to the city technology college in Nottingham early in the new year, as soon as my diary commitments permit.
    Mr. Allen: Is the Secretary of State aware that the amount of money spent on one city technology college in Nottingham is greater than the amount needed to repair all the other schools in Nottingham? Had that money been reallocated, it could have met the cost of building eight new schools in the Nottinghamshire area. As it is the right hon. and learned Gentleman's own education authority, will he do something about that problem and end the ridiculous and elitist CTC system?
    Mr. Clarke: That money has provided an extremely well-equipped, brand new school in a depressed part of Nottingham inner city. The college is popular with parents and with those who teach there and it makes a valuable

    731
    addition to the city's education facilities. The money for it was not provided at the expense of other Nottinghamshire schools and the whole project will bring in £2 million of private sector investment in education which would not otherwise have been available to pupils in that city. Given the range of issues confronting Nottinghamshire's education authority, it is absurd for the hon. Gentleman to raise only the question of trying to close down or get rid of one of the city's finest new features.
    Mr. Andy Stewart: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that before Nottingham city technology college was opened, the county council was asked whether there was scope for any closures and replied that there was not, yet immediately the college was opened the authority announced the closure of three schools when it could have sold one to the CTC and received £3 million to spend on other education provision?
    Mr. Clarke: My hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) both know as well as I do that Nottinghamshire county council has a long history of such actions, refusing to sell derelict flats for rebuilding, to sell old people's homes to private companies which would refurbish them, or to make premises available for the city technology college, preferring to lose money, incur expenditure, and make cuts in services—cuts which would otherwise be unnecessary. The county council's attitude to the CTC has been churlish from the beginning and flies totally in the face of the opinions of very many people in Nottingham.
    Mr. Straw: Is the Secretary of State aware that when commenting on the withdrawal of support for a proposed city technology college in the Prime Minister's borough of Barnet—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not in Nottingham".]—Sir Cyril Taylor, the chairman of the CTC trust, said:
    "It is madness to go on spending money on the original type of college"—
    the original concept of the CTC—[Interruption.]——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Let us get back to Nottingham.
    Mr. Straw: When the Secretary of State goes to Nottingham—notwithstanding that the Minister described that as a misplaced leak, Sir Cyril Taylor has not denied the veracity of those words—will he agree that if it is madness as far as the chairman of the CTC trust is concerned, it ought to be madness as far as he is concerned?
    Mr. Clarke: I am glad to say that nowadays the Labour party is totally outgunned in Nottingham and Nottinghamshire and the hon. Gentleman's intervention in our local controversies is not too welcome. We are on course for 15 city technology colleges, of which seven are already under way. If there is doubt about the future, it is caused in part by the Labour party's threat not to continue with the programme, a threat which has an obvious deterrent effect on sponsors. I invite the hon. Gentleman to come to Nottingham to visit the city technology college and to see for himself what a valuable addition it is to education facilities for children in Nottinghamshire.

    LEA Capital Expenditure
    Ms. Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to announce his response to the bids from local education authorities for capital expenditure; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Fallon: My right hon. and learned Friend expects to be able to announce the annual capital guidelines for capital expenditure on education in 1991–92 to local education authorities shortly before the Christmas recess.
    Ms. Walley: Does the announcement in October that there would be extra money for education mean that there really will be extra money to spend on the repair of buildings? Will the Minister give all parents throughout the country, and especially those in Staffordshire, an assurance that the quality of children's work will no longer be affected by outside toilets, leaking roofs and mobile homes which have long outlived their useful life?
    Mr. Fallon: The annual capital guidelines for local authority schools next year will be increased by 15 per cent. above the guidelines for this year. A total of some £472 million will be available. The criteria for applications under the guidelines are well known to local authorities. It is up to the authorities to rank their projects in order of need.
    Mr. Dunn: Does my hon. Friend agree that many local authorities suffer from poor physical stock, largely due to the political motivations and actions of the Opposition, who starved local authorities that refused to go comprehensive at the time of the last Labour Government? Should not the Labour party take a large share of the blame in the light of its responsibilities at that time?
    Mr. Fallon: My hon. Friend, who knows a lot about these matters, is certainly right in that respect. Annual capital guidelines have been increased substantially for next year over this year and it is open to local councils to top up the guidelines from receipts, from income and by greater flexibility in the disposal of land.
    Mr. Straw: Is the Secretary of State aware that Her Majesty's inspectors reported that a third of children were learning in accommodation so substandard that it was badly affecting the quality of their education, that at least a £4 billion backlog of repairs has built up in the past 11 years and that it is a sign of the Government's complacency and neglect that in every year of their Administration, including next year, less will be spent in real terms on improving schools than in the last year of the Labour Government?
    Mr. Fallon: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman was able to do his homework for this question. The increase in gross capital expenditure per pupil in maintained schools was about 16 per cent. in real terms between 1978–79 and 1988–89, and I have announced a substantial increase for next year.

    A-level Examinations
    Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what recent representations he has received on the future of GCE A-level examinations.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: Some respondents to the School Examinations and Assessment Council's consultation

    733
    exercise on draft principles to govern A and AS examinations have copied their views to me. I have also received some views directly.
    Mr. Evennett: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his reply. We believe in high academic standards. Will he confirm that his aim is to maintain the high academic standard of the GCE A-level examinations that employers, universities and the professions require?
    Mr. Clarke: I can certainly confirm that. Also, employers are looking to us to do something about those who ought to stay on after 16 but for whom A-levels are not suitable. The answer lies not in making A-levels easier for more people to pass, but in the arguments put by my hon. Friend the Minister of State. We must have other qualifications, including vocational qualifications, that are of high status and of a good standard and can exist as an alternative alongside A-levels.
    Mr. Cousins: Will the Secretary of State ensure that the young men and women who are at present subjected to the narrow, stuffy and repetitive routines of A-level can feel the benefit of the much more open and lively courses that are going on, such as on the certificate of pre-vocational education? That has many young men and women in the west end of Newcastle in my constituency buzzing with commitment and enthusiasm. Will he please ensure that A-level students benefit from such activity?
    Mr. Clarke: I share the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for the development of a better system of vocational qualifications. However, it is unnecessary to attack A-levels as he did because they are two separate things. People can take a mixture of both if they wish. It is getting hold of the wrong end of the stick to attack A-levels before going on to commend, sensibly, the development of better and more attractive vocational qualifications.
    Mrs. Ann Winterton: In considering the future of A-levels, will my right hon. and learned Friend ensure that science subjects continue to be taught as individual subjects and examined individually? Does he agree that that is necessary if we are to continue the high academic standards in Britain?
    Mr. Clarke: We have to ensure that science subjects can be taught separately to their present standards where the school and pupils want that and where it is suitable. If we are to have broader science teaching, it must be of the same quality as individual science subjects. Room must be kept in the curriculum and scope must be given to pupils to have separate science subjects if that is what they prefer.
    Mr. Fatchett: At a time when university vice-chancellors, polytechnic directors, the Confederation of British Industry, all the teachers' organisations and the Government's Higginson report demand reform of A-levels, why do the Government still resist? Now that the Prime Minister has gone and the fear of her ideological commitment to A-levels is out of the way, why does not the Secretary of State announce that A-level reform is necessary and that we need an integrated modern system of post-16 education and training qualifications?
    Mr. Clarke: I am all in favour of broadening the range of the curriculum and the education and training provided for people after the age of 16. The A-level part of that is not the problem. It serves its purpose extremely well for
    734
    the moment in providing a route to our excellent three-year degree courses. The other part of the picture needs to be addressed first. It is no good putting attacks on A-levels at the top of the agenda when considering how best to improve opportunities for post-16 education.

    School Buildings, Devon
    Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what capital allowances were made available to Devon county council in each of the last three years for replacing old school buildings with new ones.
    Mr. Fallon: Devon received capital allocations of £8·434 million in 1988–89, £14·177 million in 1989–90 and an annual capital guideline of £12·984 million in 1990–91. It is up to Devon to decide how much to spend on replacing old school buildings out of all the capital resources available to it, of which the education annual capital guideline is only a part.
    Mr. Steen: Does my hon. Friend the Minister agree that there is little point in funding half a dozen or so new buildings a year when 536 existing schools are not properly maintained under the Government's guidelines for the community charge? Would not it be better to allow Devon the discretion to decide whether to build half a dozen new buildings or to maintain some of the 536 buildings that are deteriorating rapidly?
    Mr. Fallon: Devon has done relatively well, not just in the current year's allocation but in the allocation for the previous two years. The annual capital guideline for this year amounts to 45 per cent. of Devon's submitted plans, whereas the national average is only 35 per cent. It is for Devon to rank its priorities under our criteria and for my right hon. and learned Friend and me then to allocate the available sums. However, I shall reflect on my hon. Friend's point.
    Mr. Allason: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the large number of Victorian and other primary schools that were built in the last century in Devon? When the bids come in from Devon county council, will he bear in mind that very large number and give the bids his sympathetic consideration?
    Mr. Fallon: My hon. Friend puts his case well at almost exactly the right time of year.

    Nursery Education, Normanton
    Mr. O'Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what assistance he intends to offer to help nursery education in the Normanton constituency; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Eggar: It is up to Leeds and Wakefield local education authorities to decide the resources that they wish to devote to nursery education within the hon. Gentleman's constituency.
    Mr. O'Brien: Is the Minister aware of the effect of the standard spending assessment on nursery education in Wakefield, which forms part of my constituency? Is he further aware that the rate support grant cuts of the past 10 years, the dreaded poll tax and the lack of teacher training and of a proper wages structure are having an

    735
    effect on nursery provision in the Normanton constituency? When will the Minister stand up for nursery education and give children in families who are suffering from stress, because of unemployment and high mortgage and interest rates, the chance of early entry to the education system?
    Mr. Eggar: Now, Sir. Seventy per cent. of three and four-year-olds attend nursery education in the Wakefield local education authority area. Indeed, 150,000 more children throughout the country now receive nursery education, compared with 1979. [Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the House to listen, please, to Education questions in silence.

    Education Vouchers
    Mr. David Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consideration he is giving to the use of education vouchers as a means of extending choice to parents.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: We have no plans to introduce a voucher scheme for schools. We have already extended parental choice through our policies of ensuring that schools admit pupils up to the limit of the schools' physical capacity.
    Mr. Evans: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his reply. I presume that he remains loyal to his beliefs when it comes to choice. Does he agree that had he remained loyal last Wednesday, Back Benchers would have had the freedom to choose the leader whom they wanted—the Prime Minister?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That has nothing to do with the question on the Order Paper.
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Clarke: First, the Prime Minister and I and my hon. Friend are all agreed that the purpose of education policy is to extend parental choice and then to make sure that taxpayers' money follows that choice into the schools. We have achieved that aim in the policy of education reform on which we have embarked. It makes the need to introduce vouchers—once considered—redundant. I certainly voted for the Prime Minister last Tuesday when a large number of my colleagues did not. I have absolutely no doubt that whoever succeeds the Prime Minister will adhere to the policy of improving choice in schools, putting better resources into our schools, following parental choice and raising education standards.
    Mr. Nellist: Of what benefit would education vouchers be to parents who face teacher shortages, particularly in London? Did the Secretary of State see last night's television report or read in this lunchtime's Evening Standard that 1,600 teachers in London have left schools in the past two months, which has affected the education of tens of thousands of pupils? Is not it a fact that it is not education vouchers but poor pay and low morale that are the real reason why parents, pupils and teachers get a rotten deal from the Government?
    Mr. Clarke: There are particular problems in London, but we shall shortly be discussing teachers' pay when we debate the Bill that is on the Order Paper for today. During the debate I shall reveal that not so many people
    736
    have entered initial teacher training for the first time since the late 1970s. The vacancy level in our schools has come down sharply this autumn and the teacher wastage rate is very low. Therefore, we are introducing the Bill to enhance still further the attractiveness of teaching as a career and to get teachers of the quality that we require. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about one thing only: that vouchers have no relevance whatever to the important task of raising the morale of our teachers and getting teachers of the quality that we need.
    Mr. Nicholas Bennett: Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider vouchers for nursery education? Low-income and one-parent families experience difficulty in finding kindergarten and nursery schools, but expansion of choice could be achieved by a voucher scheme.
    Mr. Clarke: I shall consider my hon. Friend's suggestion, with others made about nursery education provision for the under-fives. We have ruled out vouchers for statutory schooling between the ages of five and 16 because of our excellent system of reform, which achieves all the purposes for which vouchers were originally devised by the inventor of that notion.

    Teacher Vacancies
    Mr. Haynes: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his most recent estimate of teacher vacancies; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Fallon: My right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State published on 5 October the results of the Department's survey of teacher vacancies conducted at the beginning of September, a copy of which is in the Library. On 3 September, local education authorities reported just over 1,400 unfilled posts—very many fewer than the vacancies reported in January. Those results are encouraging and show that our measures to improve teacher recruitment and retention are being effective.
    Mr. Haynes: That is a terrible record for this Government. I want to know whether every child will have a fully trained teacher. Come on, let us have an answer.
    Mr. Fallon rose——
    Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. There are four minutes to go before Prime Minister's Question Time.
    Mr. Fallon: The hon. Gentleman's education authority of Nottinghamshire had 138 vacancies last January. In September, it had only five.
    Mr. Harry Greenway: Will my hon. Friend reject the constant attacks of the Labour party and its allies on the teaching profession and accept that teachers in post are as good as they have ever been and that they give wonderful service to our children, despite the Labour party's attacks?
    Mr. Fallon: It is important that the Labour party should cease to denigrate the profession. The vacancy rate is 1·8 per cent., which is one of the lowest of any profession.

    University Teachers (Morale)
    Mr. Kirkwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has had from university teachers about their current state of morale.
    Mr. Alan Howarth: My right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State received from the Association of University Teachers a copy of its autumn 1990 publication, "Goodwill Under Stress". I met a delegation from the AUT on 20 November. We had a friendly and useful discussions about a range of issues. I pay tribute to the staff of the universities for the quality of tutorial and pastoral care that they give students in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Does the Minister accept that the AUT document clearly shows that in the past 10 years university teachers have been overworked, undervalued and underpaid? Is not it highly significant that when Sir Edward Parkes, the chairman of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals, was asked to comment on the resignation of the Prime Minister, he said that in the past 10 years too much of the energy of academic staff had been devoted to damage limitation? He further said that universities would regard the demise of the Thatcher years without regret.
    Mr. Howarth: I know of no one who denigrates university teachers or who holds them in less than full respect. I very much hope that the hon. Gentleman does not disregard them. In the period during which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has held office, there has been an increase of no less than 40 per cent. in the number of young people who have had the opportunity to participate in higher education. That is only one of the remarkable achievements under the inspired leadership of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
    Mr. Dickens: Would not morale in the teaching profession be greatly improved if we identified weaknesses in teachers so that they could be given more training in that direction? Would not a good appraisal system produce those goods? We need to appraise teachers, weed out bad ones and help the good teachers more.
    Mr. Howarth: As my hon. Friend knows, appraisal schemes are under active consideration by local education authorities all over the country and our policy is moving forward in that regard. Equally, higher education institutions are introducing their own appraisal systems. Of course, it is right that those who are performing outstanding work should have their performance recognised and that should be reflected in pay scales.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mr. Haselhurst: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 November.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): Mr. Speaker—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Mr. Speaker, this morning I had a number of meetings. After my duties
    738
    in this House, I shall continue to reply to some of the 30,000 letters that have so far been delivered to Downing street in the past few days.
    Mr. Haselhurst: If this is to be the last occasion on which my right hon. Friend answers questions from the Dispatch Box, may I express the appreciation of Conservative Members—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and, I
    hope, of the whole House, for the skill, command and courtesy with which she has dealt with questions over the past 11 years?
    Is my right hon. Friend aware that Stansted airport's new terminal is to open in March next year, that the main roads serving it will not be available until 1995 and that the rail links serving it will not be of adequate capacity until that same year? Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if we are to get more public acceptance among communities that have major developments thrust upon them, it would be better if essential infrastructure came sooner rather than later?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind words. Stansted airport is close to the M11. I understand that the British Airways Authority is building a dual carriageway to connect the new terminal to the M11 and that it should be ready by March next year. I understand that British Rail is building a track to connect the terminal to the Liverpool Street station line and has already ordered rolling stock. That, too, should be ready by March next year. I hope that that will satisfy the last question by my hon. Friend that I shall answer.
    Mr. Kinnock: Would the Prime Minister be good enough to tell us which of the policies that she leaves to her successor she now thinks should be scrapped?
    The Prime Minister: I am happy that my successor will carry on the excellent policies that have finished with the decline of socialism, brought great prosperity to this country, raised Britain's standing in the world and brought about a truly capital-owning democracy.
    Mr. Kinnock: If the Prime Minister thinks that nothing should be changed, can she tell us why on earth all those now competing for her job are desperately wriggling around trying to find a way out of the poll tax trap?
    The Prime Minister: On the contrary, I really rather thought that they were keeping the poll—the community charge—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—the community charge or community policy and, whatever review they have, the result will be infinitely better than going back to the rates, which of course would be the worst of all worlds.
    Mr. Kinnock: As this may conceivably be the last time that the Prime Minister answers, may I say to her that her honest approach to the poll tax is commendable? She is demonstrating that there are two, and only two, honest approaches: one is to keep the poll tax intact, as she wants, and the other is to abolish it entirely, as we shall do.
    The Prime Minister: No, that is not correct. As with any new tax, one always both reviews it and continually amends it. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would know that after all this time.
    Dame Jill Knight: May I voice the profound regret felt by millions in this country, and thousands of millions outside, that my right hon. Friend is not to continue in her high office? Is she aware of their acknowledgement of her

    739
    unrivalled service in turning back the tide of socialism, ending the brutal tyranny of the militants in the trade unions and re-establishing Britain as a great power? Finally, may I ask my right hon. Friend to reflect——
    Hon. Members: Too long.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady is coming to an end.
    Dame Jill Knight: Finally, may I ask my right hon. Friend to reflect with pride that a thousand years from now, when every other Member of the House is dead dust, she alone will have a hallowed place in the history books?
    The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for her generous tributes I am certain that the Conservative constructive policies will continue, and that they will lead to a fourth election victory.
    Mr. Molyneaux: Does the Prime Minister recall an important debate in November 1985, when relations between us were a little strained? Does she recall my addressing her thus:
    "Millions of our fellow British citizens throughout this nation feel that the Prime Minister has a lasting contribution to make to the destiny of the nation."?—[Official Report, 26 November 1985; Vol. 87, c. 768.]
    Is the Prime Minister now aware that the vast majority of those people wish that contribution to continue?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is very generous indeed. I think that it will continue from the Back Benches, as it has from the Front Bench.
    Mrs. Maureen Hicks: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it was as a result of her unique vision at the helm that the voters in my constituency, after 40 years, rejected Labour—in her words, rejecting "windy rhetoric" from the Leader of the Opposition—because they saw in her unique qualities of leadership? May I please take this opportunity—on behalf of my constituents, who feel a tremendous sense of loss—to convey my sincere best wishes, and to extend a very warm invitation to Denis and herself to come and see us in Wolverhampton any time?
    The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend very much. I think that our policies since 1979 have built a new opportunity Britain, which can hold its head high in the world of international affairs. I am sure that those policies will continue, and we shall all pull together to ensure that they do.
    Mr. Speaker: I call Mrs. Rosie Barnes.—[Interruption.]
    Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Speaker: All right, all right, all right.
    Mr. Cryer: Can't you read?
    Mr. Speaker: That is very impertinent of the hon. Gentleman.
    I should have called Mrs. Mahon first.
    Mrs. Mahon: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mrs. Mahon: Does the Prime Minister agree with her right hon. Friend the Member for Circencester and
    740
    Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), who said in the debate last Thursday that her forced resignation had been brought about by an act of treachery by some of her colleagues?
    The Prime Minister: I have resigned and there will soon be a successor. I wish him well. I am sure that he will continue the policies that have been so successful for Britain and that he will continue to defeat socialism.
    Mr. Donald Thompson: Will my right hon. Friend come very soon to Calder Valley, where she will find an industrious, prosperous and happy community? The people there will say to her what they have said to me all weekend—"She's been a good 'un."
    The Prime Minister: I think that, after that, I must go to Calder Valley and I shall look forward to it.
    Mrs. Rosie Barnes: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mrs. Barnes: May I pay a warm tribute to the Prime Minister for her courage and dignity over the past few days? Given that the leadership of the Tory party may be decided by a third ballot and by using a system of transferable second preference votes, will not the Prime Minister reconsider the merits of that system for national elections?
    The Prime Minister: I am sure that the hon. Lady will understand that I am all for first past the post.
    Mr. Wilshire: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Wilshire: As this may be one of the last tabled questions from a Conservative Member to my right hon. Friend, may I take the opportunity to ask her whether she knows how many questions she has answered in her capacity as Prime Minister. Will she accept the heartfelt thanks of all her many friends inside and outside the House, and especially of all her friends in my constituency of Spelthorne? May I express to her and to Denis every good wish for the future, and God bless?
    The Prime Minister: First, this will be the last Question Time at which I shall answer; I do not believe in making a career of positively last appearances. I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words, especially those about my husband, and I also thank him for giving me notice of his question as I might not otherwise have known the answer. His question is the 7,498th oral question to which I have replied in 698 Question Times.
    Mr. Winnick: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Winnick: Does not the Prime Minister find it at all nauseating and hypocritical to be——
    Hon. Members: You are.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Come along.
    Mr. Winnick: Does not the Prime Minister find it the height of hypocrisy and nauseating to be so highly praised by Tory Members when, last week, 152 of them stabbed her in the back?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman was not exactly complimentary on my last appearance, was he? I do not find it nauseating; I find it very refreshing.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Will my right hon. Friend, while she is still Prime Minister, write and leave signed by her a minute of the proceedings of the Heads of Government within the European Economic Community so that her successor can endeavour to protect Britain's long-term interests in the valiant and effective manner in which she has always done?
    The Prime Minister: I can assure my hon. Friend that all the proceedings are well minuted and documented, and I most earnestly hope that the traditions of this House, which is the oldest democratic Parliament in the Community, will be fully upheld, because they ensure accountability to the people.
    Mr. Strang: To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Strang: When the Prime Minister recalls the day when she quoted St. Francis of Assisi on the steps of Downing street, will she contemplate the increase in family poverty that resulted from her repeated refusal to increase child benefit? Will she recall the increased hardship that resulted from the 1988 social security changes? Will she think about the homeless, whose numbers have doubled since she came to power? Is she aware that Opposition
    742
    Members represent communities some of which have still not recovered from the unprecedented rates of unemployment that she inflicted on them in the early 1980s? Those are some of the reasons why she will go down in history as the Prime Minister who rewarded the rich and punished the poor.
    The Prime Minister: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will also recall that Scotland is enjoying greater prosperity than it has ever known under any previous Government; that there are now 2 million more jobs than there were when I took over; and that, remembering the situation when I took office in 1979, there is much more peace in the coal industry now than there was then. We have much more peace in the coal industry, and we fought off some of the most difficult and vicious attacks, during the coal strike, that this country has ever seen. He should also recall that we have had the lowest number of strikes this year in the whole post-war period.

  BILL PRESENTED
    SEVERN BRIDGES
    Mr. Secretary Parkinson, supported by Mr. Secretary Waddington, Mr. Secretary Wakeham, Mr. Secretary Patten, Mr. John Selwyn Gummer, Mr. Norman Lamont, Mr. Secretary Hunt, Mr. Secretary Lilley and Mr. Roger Freeman, presented a Bill to provide for the construction of a new bridge over the Severn Estuary between England and Wales and roads leading to the new bridge and associated works; to make provision for the levying of tolls in respect of use of the existing Severn bridge and the new bridge; to make other provision for and in connection with the operation of the bridges; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 16.]
Orders of the Day

  School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Bill
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.31 pm
  Mr. Jack Straw: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, of which I have given you notice. This Bill was published a political lifetime ago, on 15 November. Since then, the Prime Minister has resigned and each of the candidates for the Conservative party leadership has announced policies, including the central funding of teachers' pay, that are wholly inconsistent with the scheme of this Bill.
  Is it in the interests of the good administration of Bills in this House for the House to proceed with this Bill when there is no guarantee that the policies contained in it will not be overturned by a new Administration?
  Mr. Graham Allen: Further to that point of order——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. it is not a point of order at all—[Interruption.] It is very much a point of argument. I must tell the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) that he has tabled a reasoned amendment to the Bill. Had he wanted to do so, he could have put down an amendment in the terms of the argument that he has advanced—but his point of order to me now is not a point of order at all.
  Mr. Allen: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the House is with us. Can he be prevailed upon to make a brief statement, given that none of the potential Prime Ministers will support the provisions of the Bill and that in four hours' time——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. All these are matters of argument which can be advanced during the debate. They are not points of order for me.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: Further to that point of order——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that it is not the same one.
  Mr. Taylor: On a different point related to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. There is an amendment on the Order Paper in the terms that have just been discussed. Will it be possible for the House to vote on the amendment tabled in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) and his hon. Friends?
  Mr. Speaker: I have selected one amendment, in the name of the leader of the Opposition—I have not yet had an opportunity to say that—but I cannot select two. I have not selected the amendment in the name of the Liberal Democrats.
  Mr. Geoffrey Dickens: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Has it not been nice to read the Prime Minister's obituary while she is still alive?
  Mr. Speaker: Can I have a real point of order, please?
  Mr. Paul Flynn: On a real point of order, Mr. Speaker. Have you observed that, in this week's
  744
  business, two days are devoted to an entirely non-controversial Bill which affects Wales and that there will be further consideration of the Statutory Sick Pay Bill which both sides of the House had difficulty in finding speakers to speak to last night? Because of the light load of this week's business, will you give further reconsideration to your decision yesterday on the bid by my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) for a debate on the all-important, crucial issue of the Gulf war?
  Mr. Speaker: That is hypothetical at the moment. I give consideration to important matters every day.
  Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I call Mr. Flannery although I think we should get on with the debate.
  Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) is seeking to speak in the debate, so I will hear his point of order.
  Mr. Martin Flannery: My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) raised a point of order about the School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Bill, and I want to raise a completely different point of order about it. This Bill has been condemned as a violation of international law with regard to the teaching profession by the International Labour Organisation of the United Nations. During the debate, it will emerge that the Bill is not lawful in accord with international law and it is time——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Those are matters which the hon. Gentleman can rightly advance during the debate. If it is of any comfort to him, I propose to call him very early.
  Mr. Flannery: Sir, I will shut up immediately.
  Ms. Dawn Primarolo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) and his application under Standing Order No. 20, you said in column 620——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. That was yesterday.
  Ms. Primarolo: In replying to my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow about this very important debate about the possibility of war in the Gulf, Mr. Speaker, you said:
  "I cannot therefore today submit his application to the House."—[Official Report, 26 November 1990; Vol. 181, c. 620.]
  Can you indicate whether the Foreign Secretary intends to make an emergency statement to the House before the United Nations meets on Thursday about the likelihood of war in the Gulf?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady correctly quotes me from Hansard. I certainly said that. However, I have not had an application today under Standing Order No. 20 on that matter, and I have no knowledge of whether the Government propose to make a statement about it. I hope perhaps they may.
  Mrs. Alice Mahon: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Opposition are amazed that the Foreign Secretary is not offering to make a statement, given that the five permanent members of the Security

  745
  Council are to set a date for war. Surely it is more important to talk about that than for the Foreign Secretary to worry about a career as Prime Minister.
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me. We will get on with the debate. I must announce to the House that I have selected the reasoned amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
  3.38 pm
  The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second Time.
  The Bill contains the agreed policy of this Government. I can certainly speak for two of the candidates for the position of Prime Minister who are committed to the Bill, and I believe that I know the third candidate well enough and have followed his proposals rather more carefully to know that he will endorse it and will probably vote for the Bill's provisions this evening.
  The Bill comes before the House in a very different climate from that which surrounded the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act: 1987, which it is intended to replace. The House will recall that, before the 1987 Act, there was a history of progressive breakdown in the so-called Burnham machinery and increasing disruption and bitterness in our schools, which had come to a very bad head shortly before the Bill.
  Since we passed the 1987 Act, there have been four years of industrial peace in our schools, and a succession of fair settlements for teachers on the basis of the excellent and well received reports produced by the interim advisory committee have served teachers well. That committee has clearly demonstrated its independence and fitness for the job. As a result, over the past few years teachers have had a clear framework for pay, duties and working time. Employers and governing bodies have been able to reward good performance and the acceptance of responsibility. That has coincided with the Government's education reforms, which are giving a much clearer focus and direction to the work of teaching.
  If one looks back to 1987, one can see that the result has been four years of achievement in our schools and real improvements in the way in which children are being educated. I recognise the amount of hard work that the teachers, whose pay is the subject of the Bill, have put into what is happening in schools today. I applaud the professionalism of teachers and the achievements of the teaching profession. I believe that teachers' status is well on the way to recovery from the damage done to it during that unfortunate period in the mid-1980s. As we proceed to implement our reforms, parents will gain a greater understanding of what teachers are trying to do and regain their trust in teachers' professional commitment to the education of their children.
  The 1987 Act was always recognised as a short-term solution to immediate and pressing problems. As I have said, it has fulfilled its purpose admirably, but it is time now to put more permanent arrangements into place. That is what this Bill is designed to do. It gives effect to the decisions which my predecessor, now sitting beside me in his capacity as Leader of the House, announced in the House on 23 July when he was Secretary of State for Education and Science.
  The decisions that my right hon. Friend and the Government took followed prolonged and careful
  746
  consultations with all the interested parties. I am afraid that it was always clear that it would not be easy to reach agreement on difficulty and sensitive issues on which widely differing views were held. Nobody regretted the demise of the Burnham committee, which was soon behind us, but it was difficult to achieve consensus on what should follow. Different and incompatible views were expressed during the consultations—most favouring the restoration of negotiating rights for teachers, while others preferred some kind of independent review. It became clear that it was not possible to find an acceptable solution which commanded universal agreement. The Government's decision has been to restore teachers' negotiating rights. That has been welcomed by the employers and most of the major teacher unions.
  The main features of the new machinery which the Bill will establish are very different from the ill-fated Burnham machinery. First, the Bill provides for direct national negotiations between employers and unions. There will be a separate sub-committee for heads and deputies. The Bill brings together in one negotiating forum both pay and conditions. It has a deadline for the completion of negotiations and provides a clear means of resolving deadlock. It also provides reserve powers for the Government to refer back to the negotiating body, with reasons, any aspect of agreed settlements with which they are unhappy and, in the last resort, to impose their own views.
  The Bill also provides for reference of matters to an advisory committee if the negotiating body fails to reach agreement by the deadline and for individual local education authorities and grant-maintained schools to opt out of the national arrangements and determine the pay and conditions of their teachers locally. That is the Bill's outline, and I shall deal with each feature, but first I give way to my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Harry Greenway: I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Greenway: All teachers are crucial, but heads and deputies are centrally crucial in schools. Therefore, will my right hon. and learned Friend consider the worries of heads and deputies that their sub-committee on pay and conditions is to report to the main committee and, presumably, will be subject to overruling by it? Can my right hon. and learned Friend reassure me that safeguards exist to ensure that the sub-committee will not be overruled, save in the most serious circumstances?
  Mr. Clarke: The Bill provides just such safeguards—it is not possible for the main committee so to override the sub-committee's recommendations that it makes it impossible for the Secretary of State to allow the head teachers and deputies to have what they want. I assure my hon. Friend that the Bill provides for the problem that he fears might otherwise arise.
  The Bill's first clause, together with schedule 1, provides for the establishment of the new national negotiating committee and a separate sub-committee to take the initiative on matters involving heads and deputies. It also distinguishes between the statutory and non-statutory conditions of employment: it is only the former, the statutory conditions—pay, duties and teachers' working time—that will be dealt with under the procedures set out

  747
  in the rest of the Bill. On other matters, the committee will be able to strike such agreements as it wishes, subject only to a requirement in clause 6 to notify me of what it has agreed.
  Clause 2 is concerned with how negotiations get started, what the negotiating deadline will be, and what recommendations can be made as a result of different negotiations. Clause 3 and schedule 2 establish the procedures to be followed when negotiations result in recommendations, and clause 4 establishes what should happen if there are no recommendations by the relevant deadline.
  I should say a little more about these provisions. First, negotiations—the initiative for negotiations will rest with the committees, not with the Secretary of State. The committees will be able to give themselves as long as they like to negotiate, the only constraint being that they must finish on time because teachers' negotiations have a history of being far too protracted. There will be no constraints on the negotiations and, in particular, no pre-set financial limits. The main aim of the negotiations will be a return to normal working, and it will be for the local authority employers to decide what they can afford and to reflect that in their negotiations.
  Secondly, I referred briefly to the Government's powers to refer back and to override. I hope that we will not hear sanctimonious humbug about this because the need for the Government to have such powers is perfectly obvious and has always been accepted. Since 1944, Governments of all parties have been able to influence teachers' pay structure and contain pay costs. Only a particularly irresponsible Labour Government would not feel obliged to exercise an influence on teachers' pay structure and the total pay bill.
  I should like to quote from one of my 'distinguished predecessors. During the passage of the Remuneration of Teachers Act 1965, the late Lord Stewart of Fulham, then Michael Stewart, the Secretary of State for Education and Science said:
  "I doubt whether any Government in any set of circumstances could put itself in a position where it could hand over the power on the global sum to someone other than itself."—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 1 December 1964; c. 20.]
  From 1965, the Government's interests were secured by a concordat that operated alongside the legal provisions of the 1965 Act. I shall not go back over the full 20 years——
  Mr. Straw: Why not? We have lots of time.
  Mr. Clarke: I suspect that the number of hon. Members who will wish to speak in the debate will be smaller than might have been the case on another day.
  As I say I shall not go back over the full 20 years, but most people are agreed that the concordat worked reasonably satisfactorily. It provided the Government with a weighted vote inside the management panel and a veto over proposed offers on grounds of total cost. That veto was conceded by the local authority employers and was not backed by any statutory provision. In 1985, the employers' side, the local authority side, then led by the Labour party, unilaterally scrapped the concordat, leaving the Government with a much diminished and quite inadequate influence on the outcome of the negotiations. That could not be tolerated by any Government.
  748
  The Government provide about two thirds of the money that is necessary to pay the teachers as a result of any settlement. There is room for argument, and I am sure that there will be much debate in Committee about the precise form of negotiations, but all negotiations must have reflected on one side of the table the legitimate interests of employees, and on the other side the legitimate interests of the employers and those who will be called upon to finance them.
  Negotiations are between the recipients of finance and those who provide that finance. It would be quite absurd to devise a system whereby the local authority employers who provide the minority of the money for the settlement could reach whatever settlement they pleased without the Government, who have to use taxpayers' money and the business rate to provide the bulk of the finance, having any say and influence. In the consultations that proceeded my right hon. Friend's statement to the House in July, both employers and trade unions agreed that the Government must be able to have the last word on affordability in any new permanent machinery. The Bill therefore gives the Government a sensible and necessary role in determining teachers' statutory conditions of employment.
  Mr. Straw: As will emerge in greater detail in my speech, I broadly accept what the Secretary of State has said about the Government's position. However, may I press him on the accountability of the Government and Ministers to Parliament, because one important defect of this Bill, as compared even with the Teachers Pay and Conditions Act 1987, is that decisions which the Secretary of State may make under his reserved powers under this Bill can be checked by this House only under the negative resolution procedure even when those decisions are contrary to the recommendations of the teachers' pay committee, whereas decisions under the 1987 Act had to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, which was beneficial, certainly for accountability?
  Mr. Clarke: I shall look at that point again, but there are precedents for the negative resolution procedure, as set out in the Bill. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has similar override powers in respect of certain pay settlements, which are also covered by negative resolution. If the Government were in conflict with the negotiated solution that they were overriding, a Prayer would be tabled, which the House would expect to debate. In practice, however, that is unlikely to be a matter of great significance to the House.
  One snag with using the positive procedure is that the House of Lords would also have a vote and there are those with reservations about whether their Lordships should have the power to take decisions involving large sums of public expenditure. I cannot believe that this House would lose the opportunity of having a vote on the expenditure and on the Secretary of State's use of the override for teachers' pay settlements. There would be adequate opportunities for the House to have such a vote under the negative resolution procedure.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: We are given to understand that, where the settlements are within the inter-quartile range, they will not normally be referred back on the basis of the cost of the settlement. Why is it only "normally"? Surely that provision in itself would allow the Secretary of State

  749
  to say that, for financial reasons, the Government would never refer back a settlement that was within the inter-quartile range, where it has been agreed.
  Mr. Clarke: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for referring to the undertaking that was given by my predecessor. The Government do not intend to act unfairly or arbitrarily.
  Before turning to the basis on which the Government would not normally seek to exercise the override, I should first explain that the Bill provides some statutory procedures that would stop any Secretary of State of any Government behaving in an unfair or arbitrary fashion. Where the Secretary of State is unhappy with what has been proposed, he does not immediately move and refer that matter to the advisory committee. The Secretary of State's first step would be to refer that matter back to the negotiators for their reconsideration, stating his reasons for asking them to look at it again. Only if that process has been exhausted, if the two sides are still at loggerheads and differences remain, would the question of overriding the negotiators' recommendations arise.
  When it comes to exercising those powers as a member of the Government, my predecessor gave the undertaking to which the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) has just referred, which is that normally the Government would not intend to refer back recommendations on cost grounds if the overall cost was within the inter-quartile range of the private sector settlements for non-manual employees. That does not mean that we will always refer back settlements that fall outside that range, but we shall expect the negotiators to justify them and to explain how they intend to afford the settlements without having adverse effects on other schools' expenditure if such settlements are reached. That means that teachers can be confident of fair treatment compared with the work force in general, and that they will have scope to improve their pay relative to others over time. The inter-quartile range is also the range that we have chosen for civil service pay, and it has greatly improved the arrangements for civil servants.
  Having got to that point, the hon. Member for Truro may ask why we do not make the provisions absolutely clear. He may even want to put them on the face of the Bill. The Government will remain bound by the undertaking that was given by my right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State for Education and Science, and which has been repeated by me today on behalf of the Government. The only reason for not making that undertaking statutory is that if, in future—perhaps by general consent—the Government were to give a different guideline which gave flexibility, it would be a pity if that required primary legislation.
  The teaching profession may welcome the possibility of seeing what happens in the next few years, given the Government's commitment that we shall not normally interfere with settlements that fall within the inter-quartile range. The House should not make it too difficult for a Secretary of State to suggest a different Government guideline. Our policy is one that I think the hon. Gentleman would want, and we would not usually interfere provided that a settlement was within the inter-quartile range.
  The Government's objectives for teachers' pay have been stated clearly on many occasions, and I am glad to repeat them today. We want teachers' pay to be sufficient to recruit, retain and motivate enough teachers of the right
  750
  quality within what can reasonably be afforded. Having set down that principle, it is important that the pay arrangements should contain sufficient flexibility. I want there to be many well-paid, successful, professional teachers, but it is right that the money and any improved payments should go where they are needed most. Pay and negotiations should be used by employers, in this case influenced by the Government, in ways that serve managerial purposes and, in this service, that above all serve educational purposes.
  Money should be used especially to reward excellence in performance, to recognise responsibility and to tackle recruitment problems. I and the Government would prefer the large sums of money involved in teachers' pay settlements to be used in that way rather than in the undifferentiated way of agreeing on one settlement figure for the profession as a whole.
  Mr. Ronnie Campbell: Last weekend, I visited the South Beach first school in my constituency. I was given a copy of an assessment form covering science, English and arithmetic. The chart must be filled in because of the new assessment procedure. It takes a school teacher at least three quarters of an hour to do that for each child, and there are at least 30 pupils in each class. It is obvious that teachers cannot both be filling in forms and teaching their pupils, so they must take the forms home. Will the Government pay teachers extra money for taking home that work? I shall give the Minister the assessment form, as he may like to look at it.
  Mr. Clarke: I thank the hon. Gentleman for handing me the assessment form for levels one and two used by South Beach school. I shall put myself to the test later and I hope that I can reach the necessary attainment level. However, the form was not created by the Government. South Beach school is under no legal obligation to use such a form and it is not part of the present reforms. I have not seen such a form previously, but it is possible that it relates to some earlier pilot projects on the tests that we propose to introduce in schools. The testing system for seven, 11, 14 and 16-year-olds is not yet legally in force, and it certainly will not follow the format of the hon. Gentleman's assessment form. We are contemplating a very much simpler form for seven-year-old tests. Of course, I am interested to know that an assessment form is being used sensibly, but I am sure that the Government can devise a simpler one.
  It is important to have an assessment system for pupils and also to ensure that it is set out in a way that can be readily understood by parents. That is our aim. I think that most teachers accept that assessment of pupils and reporting the results to parents are an ordinary part of a teacher's occupation. Most teachers will welcome the framework that we will provide for them to do that. We held pilot projects in English schools last July on a particular method of testing seven-year-olds. A number of its features were not satisfactory and we have withdrawn that proposal. We are now working on what will be the statutory procedures for testing the English, maths and basic scientific knowledge of seven-year-olds in the summer of next year.
  As I said, I believe that teachers' pay should be used to reward excellence of performance, to attract particular skills, and to be flexible in other ways. If negotiations fail to reach a conclusion on either that or any other basis

  751
  when the deadline is reached, the Bill provides for what will then happen. It would be unsatisfactory if a deadlock were reached in the main annual negotiations and teachers were then left for a year without a settlement.
  Clause 4 provides for the Secretary of State automatically to seek recommendations from the advisory committee to be established under clause 5 and schedule 3. I make no apology for the fact that that committee is closely modelled on the interim advisory committee. It has operated successfully over the past three years, and it has earned general respect for its independence and the quality of its reports. It will not provide arbitration, but will work to a clear Government remit. However, I stress that that body will only come into play where negotiations end in disagreement. It is plainly necessary that, if the parties to the new negotiations fail to agree, the Secretary of State must look to other means of resolving them.
  Mr. Derek Fatchett: Over the weekend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to commit himself to a review of teachers' pay. If one takes place, how does the Secretary of State envisage that it will fit into the appropriate machinery? Would such a review be the responsibility of the interim advisory committee or of a separate, ad hoc committee? Will it supplement negotiations, and has the right hon. and learned Gentleman discussed that idea with the Chancellor?
  Mr. Clarke: As an elector in the leadership contest, I am following the statements of the three candidates with interest. I do not believe 'that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has committed himself, as a putative Prime Minister, to a review of teachers' pay. However, the hon. Gentleman will find that all three contenders for the premiership are united in a desire to see the status of teachers restored to the level of a few years ago. We all want to see their self-esteem restored, and have in place proper provisions for negotiating sensible pay arrangements.
  My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has expressed his concerns about the status of teachers in this country, and I share his views. However, I do not believe that we shall embark on a fresh review of pay arrangements, when the Bill contains excellent arrangements that should be enacted and put into force.
  Mr. Fatchett: The Chancellor was talking not about detailed arrangements and machinery but of improving teachers' salaries and conditions. If the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) came along in the new capacity of Prime Minister, would the Secretary of State agree to a new review of pay and conditions? Would he think that was a worthwhile step forward?
  Mr. Clarke: So far, at this late stage in the contest, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has not committed himself to any specific enhancements in teachers' pay and conditions. Like me, my right hon. Friend has served as a member of a Government who have seen a steady improvement in pay and conditions. Teachers are on average 30 per cent. better off in real terms—that is, their spending power has increased by 30 per cent. over the past 10 years. Today's teachers are much better off than previous generations.
  752
  We are devising machinery—my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and I will vote for it this evening—that is designed to pave the way for negotiations, which will no doubt continue to be funded in such a way that teachers' pay will certainly keep in line with movements elsewhere. We have said that we will not interfere if the settlements are within the inter-quartile range. In that way, teachers' pay will keep in step with that of other professions, and might even improve by comparison with them. Perhaps those of my right hon. and hon. Friends who are more closely allied with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor than I am at this time in the leadership contest, and who are present in the Chamber, know otherwise—but I do not believe that he has committed a Government under his leadership to a specific review of teachers' pay and conditions—[Interruption.] I believe that authoritative comments are being offered from the Benches behind me.
  Mr. John Marshall: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, such has been the improvement in teachers' pay, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) might be enticed back into the profession?
  Mr. Clarke: Many right hon. and hon. Members might want the hon. Gentleman to return to his former profession, but I am not sure that would be in line with the Government's policy of enhancing standards in our schools. In case that remark is taken literally outside, I would not dream of traducing the hon. Gentleman's professional status as a teacher. However, there are times when I wish that he were back in the classroom.
  Mr. Gerry Steinberg: The Secretary of State claims that teachers are 30 per cent. better off in real terms than they have ever been. How does he explain the fact that, in the four years since the interim advisory committee has been in operation, teachers' pay has not even kept up with inflation?
  Mr. Clarke: It may not have done so every year, but it has over the whole four years. The IAC was established on the back of a very large settlement. It is true that, thereafter, the settlement did not keep in line with inflation every year. That is no answer to the basic point that I made—the intervention by the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg) is no answer to that, either—which was that, during the period that the Government have been in office, they have shown that they recognise the need for the real income of teachers to rise in line with the improved prosperity of the country. Today's teachers have 30 per cent. more purchasing power than they had 10 years ago, when the Conservative Government came to power.
  This is a good day for talking about the achievements of the past 11 years. Teachers who have been in the profession throughout the 11 years of my right hon. Friend's premiership will find that they are much better off today than they were when she came to office.
  Mr. Alistair Burt: Could my right hon. and learned Friend remind the House—Opposition Members sometimes seem to be suffering from collective amnesia—that teachers' pay rose by 6 per cent. only during their term of office? I wonder why they seem to forget that, when they put so many questions to him about teachers' pay?
  Mr. Clarke: That is certainly the case. It is an irony that, under the last Labour Government, the pay of white collar workers, those in the professions and in the public services hardly improved at all. Blue collar industrial workers appeared to do much better than them but, In the end, no one thrived—especially in the face of the inflation over which the last Labour Government presided.
  For a long time, our record on teachers' pay has been much better than that of the Government from which we took over. That record gives credibility to the Bill.
  Mr. Steinberg rose——
  Mr. Clarke: Hon. Members are encouraging me to give way because we have a lot of time. I shall give way once more, and then we shall have a change of subject.
  Mr. Steinberg: I appreciate the fact that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is giving way. Rather than teachers being 30 per cent. better off in real terms, since 1974 and the Houghton award, teachers are 40 per cent. worse off. So the right hon. Gentleman's figures are not accurate. In the past 16 years, teachers have generally had a bad deal, and they are now a lot worse off than they ever were.
  Mr. Clarke: Houghton was one of those sudden peaks. Thereafter, teachers' pay sharply declined.
  Mr. Steinberg: No.
  Mr. Clarke: Yes, it was. The then Labour Government, implemented Houghton to win an election, and there-after, teachers' pay dropped away. Returning to the present, I believe that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. I shall check, but it is my belief that, in real terms, teachers' incomes today are higher than they were at the time of the Houghton report recommendations.
  Mr. Steinberg indicated dissent.
  Mr. Clarke: The hon. Member for City of Durham shakes his head. No doubt, if I am wrong, my hon. Friend will be able to correct me when he replies to the debate.
  Mr. Harry Greenway: Speaking as one who received the Houghton award of 34 per cent. in 1974, I think that the House should remember that there was 27 per cent. inflation a year later—[HON. MEMBERS: "There was not."] Yes—in 1976, there was. The value of Houghton's award was totally eroded by 1979. When the Labour Government left office, we were worse off than when we were paid the Houghton award.
  Mr. Clarke: We are reminiscing. I fought the 1974 election. The then Labour party bought the teachers by promising to implement Houghton, and bought nurses by promising to implement Halsbury. Once they got into office, the value of those awards in real terms was allowed to erode almost immediately.
  The Bill is a much more sensible way to proceed. I am advised that, in the opinion of those who advise me, I was correct in our recent exchanges. Teachers are now 12 per cent. better off in real terms than they were after the Houghton settlement.
  Let us return to the new arrangements. Clause 7 of the Bill provides for the making of orders to give effect to the changes in teachers' pay, duties and working time which emerge from the various processes that I was describing a few moments ago.
  754
  Clauses 8 and 9 provide for local education authorities and governing bodies of grant-maintained schools—who judged that they could respond better to local needs and circumstances by themselves settling the pay and conditions of their teachers—to apply to be allowed to opt out of the nationally determined framework. That builds upon the local flexibility which we have already achieved in the national arrangements in the past three years, and in my opinion is a natural extension of it.
  I strongly approve of the development of more local pay bargaining and more local settlements on terms and conditions in the great public services. It would be especially advantageous for the teaching profession, many local education authorities and many grant-maintained schools.
  I do not envisage that huge variations from national rates will be introduced rapidly, or at all in many cases, but the ability to tackle particular problems of local recruitment, to recognise particular skills that a school needs to offer, to reward particular performance, and to enter into agreements between the school and its staff, or the local education authority and its staff, about changes that staff want and agree to deliver in their part of the service, should all be permitted. I believe firmly that, steadily over the years, more and more local education authorities and schools and those who represent the teachers in those authorities and schools will see the advantages of moving out of national negotiating machinery and towards local pay bargaining.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: On the basis of his comments, will the Secretary of State clarify whether he believes that it is preferable for most local authorities and schools to opt out of the national arrangements that he has been describing? Is it his desire that most should opt out? Can he elaborate a little on whether any research has been undertaken within the Department to assess the likely impact of such opting out? He has suggested that the impact might not be very great. What research has taken place, and will it be presented to the House.?
  Mr. Clarke: As a matter of broad principle but not immediate policy, I would welcome it if the majority of local education authorities and grant-maintained schools were operating some degree of local pay bargaining. That is not an imminent possibility, and it might be undesirable to move to that quite so quickly. When local pay bargaining begins to be developed within a giant service that is accustomed to only national pay bargaining, it is wise for all parties to proceed cautiously. People become accustomed to their pay, terms and conditions being handed down from on high by the Burnham committee or, in this case, its successor, and the skills do not always exist locally to move straight to local pay bargaining. It is not as easy as it sounds or looks to start negotiating as a county with all the staff outside the national limits, or for a grant-maintained school to start negotiating with its staff.
  There is scope for some research and for people to develop the skills they require. I believe that, as the opportunity is provided by the Bill for employers to leave the national negotiating arrangements, some will take advantage of it. People will get used to the new arrangements and I should like to see it become much more the norm inside the education service. As I have said,

  755
  people should move slowly, because negotiations at local level are difficult when nobody locally has experience of pay bargaining.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: I agree with the Secretary of State about the need to move slowly. He said that there is scope for some research. I asked what research the Department has undertaken into the likely impact of opting out. We have not seen any. If there has been research, will it be made available to hon. Members during the debates on the Bill?
  Mr. Clarke: I do not think that we have had any and, without prejudging it, I do not think that I would take much notice of it if we had. Hypothetical research about the impact of local pay bargaining in a service that has not had any is not, in my experience, very valuable. The main thing is not to have research into what might happen but to ensure that sufficient guidance and advice is available so, that what does happen is in the interests of the local education service and those who work for it. I shall inquire as to whether there has been research, but I am not instantly converted to the desirability of too much of it.
  Mr. Straw: One of the unquestioned consequences of dismembering a national pay arrangement and handing it over to local negotiations is wage drift. What view does the Treasury take of the prospect of 75 per cent. of local authorities running their own negotiations?
  Mr. Clarke: Under this Government, the Treasury has always been supportive of moves towards local pay bargaining and greater pay flexibility, because it means that the management have the ability to get more out of the work force and to use the increased expenditure on its payroll in a way that produces improvements in service. There has been no resistance from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer or his predecessors to moving towards local pay bargaining.
  It is true that there is a danger of pay drift in just moving towards local pay bargaining. A relaxed employer may decide that he will show what an enlightened local authority he represents by paying 20 per cent. more to all the teachers and that authority is then quoted by all the other authorities involved in pay bargaining. I see that Opposition Front-Bench Members are nodding enthusiastically at that. I am sorry that they share the low opinion of local government as employers that is sometimes held by Conservative Members. That is the danger, but it is up to employers to be more sophisticated and to guard against it. The pay argument could be applied to many other industries—to every company in the engineering industry and to all other large employers.
  The Opposition have to consider whether they really fear the fact that employers should be allowed to opt out. They say that they do not see much more scope for variations to reflect the local pay market, or different skills, or agreements between governors, headmasters and headmistresses and staff about enhanced payment for recognisable and measurable improvements in performance. The Opposition take too nervous a view. Pay drift is a danger, but it can be avoided by sensible managers.
  Local authorities must remember, especially now that their negotiating powers are being returned to them, that everything they do must be within the limit of what is
  756
  reasonably affordable. If they do not agree on that, they will simply pay the teachers more and at the same time damage other parts of the education service.
  Mr. Steve Norris: My right hon. and learned Friend is right to say that progress ought to be steady rather than hasty in this important area, but I know that he will accept that clauses 8 and 9 are looked forward to by those of us who represent extremely high cost areas, such as the county of Essex, with much greater enthusiasm than any other part of the Bill. It is a wonderful breakthrough for us. It will allow us to overcome a considerable problem, upon which I hope later to be able to expand.
  Caution is no doubt desirable, but no message ought to go out from the House today that responsible local authorities should not take full advantage of clause 8 when there is a demonstrable need, as there is in west Essex, to improve teachers' pay, whatever the absolute rate is throughout the country. Housing in west Essex is so expensive that teachers' pay must be improved there.
  Mr. Clarke: My hon. Friend will be reassured to hear that clause 8 does not inhibit the right of Essex county council to enter into local negotiations, if it so wishes. My personal advice, however, is that Essex ought to be careful how it proceeds. Nevertheless, Essex knows exactly what it wishes to do. I know that there are very real problems in Essex that must be addressed. They can be addressed only by the county council entering into proper local pay bargaining arrangements.
  Mr. Harry Greenway: Did my right hon. and learned Friend have the pleasure of reading the minority report that I appended to the Select Committee's April report on the pay and remuneration of teachers? If he did, I wonder whether he saw that I suggested that teachers ought to be paid on an individual basis. That could be brought about by means of the Bill. If that were done, teachers would feel much happier. They would see that their contribution to the school—the task of teaching their subject and whatever other responsibilities they may have—had been taken into account by the school authorities. If teachers felt that their services were more valued, they would be much happier and would feel more settled.
  Mr. Clarke: At that time, I was reading other Select Committee reports, but I remember reading newspaper reports about the minority report that my hon. Friend had appended to the Select Committee's report. I remind my hon. Friend that a great deal of flexibility has emerged as a result of the advisory committee's recommendations.
  Individual rewards for teachers are already much more of a possibility as a result of what has been negotiated. If local authorities have ideas of their own, clause 8 will allow them to decide what, for them, are better arrangements for the individual reward of teachers. The more flexibility there is in the system, the more people will see that that is a valuable way to improve rewards to the profession and thereby to raise teaching standards.
  The new negotiating machinery to which the Bill gives effect amounts to a carefully balanced package that gives proper recognition to the legitimate interests of teachers, their employers and the Government. It is fair to teachers, parents, taxpayers and community charge payers. It is the best proposition available at a time when we must return to restoring negotiating machinery. It will be a valuable

  757
  addition to present efforts to recruit teachers and will, I hope, lead to further improvement in the good level of recruitment and retention in the teaching profession.
  The Department carries out a survey every October of recruitment to teacher training courses in all universities, polytechnics and colleges in England and Wales. The figures are much better this year than last year. Nearly 24,000 students started initial teacher training this year. That is a quite spectacular increase of more than 2,000 compared with last year. Recruitment to primary courses is nearly 12 per cent. higher than a year ago, which is a spectacular increase. Recruitment to secondary courses is nearly 6 per cent. higher. Recruitment to the main secondary shortage subjects, except mathematics, was higher than last year. There has been an increase of 30 per cent. in the intake of modern language specialists.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Michael Fallon): Hear hear.
  Mr. Clarke: I repeat that, as I got a "Hear, hear". There has been an increase of almost a third in the recruitment of modern language specialists. Overall, recruitment was almost half as high again as in 1983, and was the highest since 1977. The House must agree that that is good news. It shows how effective our programme of action on teacher supply measures has been and that, contrary to all the myths, teaching is an attractive career and is becoming increasingly so. But we cannot rest on that—we must do better still.
  Not only is recruitment suddenly up, but retention is satisfactory as well. I have been considering, for the first time, wastage ln the profession. Wastage—people leaving teaching for other occupations—runs at only about 1 per cent. per year. That is a spectacularly low figure and reflects job satisfaction as well as satisfaction with pay. The general vacancy rate in our schools, contrary to constant campaigning, has not risen in the past 10 years, but I accept that there are problems in one or two places. My Department's survey earlier this year showed that vacancies this year were particularly down in September, compared with a year ago.
  Recruitment and retention is satisfactory, and the new machinery will have a good starting point in the current teachers' pay and conditions document. That already covers pay, duties and working time; it provides attractive pay levels and scope for desirable differentiation; and it provides wide-ranging local flexibility.
  That is the background on which we must build. I share the views which I think my right hon. Friend the Chancellor was expressing at the weekend—that we should build on it by putting the machinery in place for the proper negotiation of pay and by continuing to build up the morale of the profession yet further. It is the key deliverer of the service, and as we restore its self-esteem and job satisfaction, the beneficiaries will be pupils, who will find a motivated teaching force applying themselves with even more dedication to teaching them.
  Mrs. Sylvia Heal: Despite what the Minister has said, the view from the chalk face is different. Staff do not agree with his interpretation of recruitment and retention. Teachers in my constituency, with whom I have been speaking in the past few weeks, believe that only an attractive increase in salaries will recruit and retain teachers.
  Mr. Clarke: I am sure that teachers always aspire to higher pay and, quite properly, they always have a pay claim in prospect. As I have said in repeated exchanges, not only is their pay much better but we are attracting more people to the profession, the wastage rate is low and vacancies are down.
  Mr. Straw: Not true.
  Mr. Clarke: It is true. I quite understand why unions keep up a constant stream of propaganda that seeks to undermine that position. The Labour party should occasionally, as a responsible Opposition, address itself to the facts which I described.
  Mr. Norris: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
  Mr. Clarke: I have given way for the last time. I apologise to my hon. Friend, but I am in danger of talking out my own Bill if I give way more frequently.
  The machinery can only be as good as the people who operate it. If those who are negotiating are not prepared to operate the new machinery sensibly and are not prepared to recognise realities, no machinery will be able to compensate for that. If the leaders of the teachers' unions are genuine in their claims to have the interests of education at heart—I have no reason to doubt it—and demonstrate that by approaching negotiations responsibly, I believe that the new machinery set up by the Bill will serve them well. If they return to the unrealistic claims backed up by irresponsible actions against the pupils which we have seen in the past, they are doomed to disappointment. Most importantly, they will do the education service and the teaching profession no good by returning to such an approach. I hope that they will not do that and that they will be attracted by the working of the new arrangements. I therefore commend the Bill to the House.
  4.25 pm
  Mr. Jack Straw: I beg to move,
  That this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which, by undermining national pay arrangements, will divide and further weaken the education service, place standards at risk, is based on no coherent strategy to improve teacher recruitment, retention and morale, and which gives powers to the Secretary of State for which he will not properly be accountable.
  As our reasoned amendment makes clear, we decline to give the Bill our endorsement. In our view, it has three major defects. First, it establishes a complex scheme for settling teachers' pay, with too much power being given to the Secretary of State for Which he is not properly accountable to Parliament. Secondly, the provisions for local education authorities and for grant-maintained Schools to opt out of a national pay framework will, in our judgment, still further divide the education service, to the detriment of our children's education. Thirdly, we believe that the Government have no clear strategy for dealing with the serious and increasing problems of teacher shortages, the difficulty of recruitment and retention and the problems of low morale.
  The Secretary of State spoke of "sanctimonious humbug". Over the past couple of weeks, we have seen some fine examples of sanctimonious humbug among Conservative Members—[Interruption.] I am glad that Conservative Members appreciate that that certainly occurred.
  Mr. James Pawsey: We have not said anything.
  Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman does not need to say anything—one has only to look at him.
  All three candidates for the Conservative leadership have suddenly discovered that morale in the teaching service is low and that education matters and should be improved. That tells us principally two things about those candidates—that they can read opinion polls and that they have no shame. The polls show that there has been rising discontent with the Government's education policies, dating almost exactly from the introduction nearly three years ago of the Education Reform Bill and, coinciding with that discontent, rising and positive support for Labour's alternatives.
  The responsibility for this sorry state is shared by the whole Government, not just the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher). Each candidate for the Conservative leadership voted for the Education Reform Act 1988 and the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987. That legislation removed all negotiating rights from teachers and instead left teachers, alone among any pay bargaining group, with their pay subject to imposition by fiat of the Secretary of State.
  On Sunday, I read in The Observer a statement made by the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) as part of his platform to obtain the votes of Conservative Members. It is notable that he has failed to obtain the support or vote of any of the Education Ministers—they are backing the gentlemen's candidate. The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "we cannot guarantee better results in the classroom until we restore teacher's self respect, authority and respect in the community."
  We would all drink to that. Why is there now a problem after 11 years of Conservative Administration? Why do teachers' self-respect, authority and respect in the community need to be restored? Teachers' morale is certainly not what it should be.
  That point was made powerfully in the excellent last report, published in January this year, by the Interim Advisory Committee on School Teachers' Pay and Conditions. The committee said:
  "We are in no doubt at all that teacher morale is lower than in our first two years, and that a number of factors are contributing to this."
  One of the factors, the committee said, was identified by Her Majesty's senior chief inspector of schools, who said that teachers felt that they were not properly valued, and were used as
  "convenient scapegoats for all society's problems."
  The senior inspector is a courageous man, whom I applaud. He did not say precisely who he thought was treating teachers in that way, but the message in the report was clear—that among those who had misused and mistreated teachers were a succession of Conservative Ministers and Back Benchers who, in the early and mid-1980s, dined out on abuse of what teachers were seeking to do.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: Who and when?
  Mr. Straw: If the Secretary of State goes to the Library and looks up a certain speech made by the present Secretary of State for the Environment—the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Patten)—he will find, put together very cleverly, the insinuation that teachers' current
  760
  attitudes would lead to the creation of a yob society. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman then looks up the cuttings relating to that speech, he will discover that his right hon. Friend achieved exactly what he set out to achieve: he managed to imply that teachers, rather than those with a great deal more power—namely, the Government—were to blame for the creation of such a society.
  Mr. Pawsey: I am certain that that accusation has been levelled across the Chamber before. Last time, it was refuted by my right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for the Environment. Incidentally, the quotation from my right hon. Friend which sticks in my mind is a very simple one—his observation that the nearest thing to a magic wand in education is a head teacher.
  Mr. Straw: I know that the hon. Gentleman follows these matters with care. I am happy to send him a copy of the speech made by the current Secretary of State for the Environment—who then held the post of Minister of State, Department of Education and Science, which is now held by the hon. Member for Enfield, North (Mr. Eggar)—and the cuttings associated with it. The right hon. Gentleman wrote to me about the speech, and I wrote back; but I never received a reply, which I think makes my point. I sent him the cuttings too.
  One of the reasons for teachers' low morale, then, is the suggestion that they are responsible for the ills of society. The second reason——
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: This is preposterous. I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but it lowers teachers' morale to be told so often by Labour spokesmen that they are being abused by Conservative Ministers. Is it seriously suggested that one unremembered speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Patten)—and the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of it has been strongly disputed by my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey)—is responsible for the present low morale? It is absurd to suggest that this is the Government's responsibility. What damaged the teaching profession was the public's reaction during the protracted industrial dispute. Unfortunately, the Labour party gave mindless support to that action, and certainly played its part in the lowering of the esteem in which the profession was held by the general public.
  Mr. Straw: I am not surprised that the Secretary of State does not remember what happened—at the time, he was engaged full time in lowering the morale of members of the health professions.
  Of course, one Minister alone was not responsible—a succession of Ministers were responsible. The Secretary of State should read all the speeches made to Conservative party conferences by the right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker) when he was Secretary of State—particularly his 1986 speech, which took a sideswipe at one section of the teaching profession. He should also read the report of his own senior chief inspector. I quote from that report at greater length:
  "But of great importance to most teachers, is that the work they do is seen to be valued and rated highly by society; that its difficulties are understood; and that teachers and education are not used as convenient scapegoats for all society's problems. Currently, too many teachers feel that their profession and its work are misjudged and seriously undervalued."

  761
  The reason why teachers' morale fell so greatly was partly the abuse that was heaped on them, but it was also the continuous round of change upon change which was imposed on teachers as a consequence of the ill-thoughtout agenda in the Education Reform Act 1988. Conservative Members cannot gainsay that because they know that much of that agenda was badly thought out and has subsequently had to be unpicked and changed.
  Thirdly, teachers' self-respect and authority was greatly undermined by the removal of negotiating rights. Fourthly, as the Secretary of State must acknowledge, teachers' pay—especially since the settlement in 1986—has lagged behind that of comparable pay groups. The Secretary of State swapped statistics about what had happened to teachers' pay in the past 15 years. Over 15 years of any Government—even the present Government, who have a lower record of growth year on year than previous Governments—real living standards are likely to rise. The graph in the Select Committee report makes it clear that there has been a real rise in teachers' pay since 1974. I am not arguing about that and it is sensible that we should agree on known facts.
  However, teachers' pay—this point is of critical importance—has lagged behind that of comparable groups. That is shown clearly by the other graph in the Select Committee report.
  Mr. Pawsey indicated assent.
  Mr. Straw: I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) acknowledges that fact on this occasion. The slide down from the high point of Houghton has been great relative to other non-manual earnings. Conservative Members believe, more than we do, in untrammelled markets. Whether people take a job depends partly on the relative pay available for that job compared with other jobs. It is not surprising that teacher shortages have arisen, given that the pay of teachers has so declined relative to that of other groups.
  Mr. Frank Haynes: My hon. Friend will be aware—the Secretary of State will also be aware because I shall tell him—that I have two daughters and a son-in-law in teaching. I get my ear bashed regularly about how the Government have treated the teaching profession. Whenever I have had the opportunity, I have asked the Government to get their noses out of negotiations between the employers and the trade unions on wage increases for the teaching profession. Let there be no mistake about it—the present Secretary of State will poke his nose in, too. He upset the health service and he will do the same with education.
  Mr. Straw: I do not wish to comment on the personal anatomy of the Secretary of State, which is actually rather fine, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) that the Secretary of State will seek unnecessarily to interfere in the outcome of the negotiations. Like my hon. Friend, I have many family members who are teachers and I know just how difficult it is——
  Mr. Pawsey: It cannot be so bad then, can it?
  Mr. Straw: It is bad. I know just how difficult it is for those members of my family to make ends meet.
  The Library briefing document which, as ever, is extremely helpful, contains on its penultimate page
  762
  information on what has happened to the salaries of graduate teachers. It shows that, in real, terms the starting salary of graduate teachers will have gone down from £10,330 in October 1987 to £9,990 at the beginning of next year. The final salary that a career classroom graduate teacher with incentive allowance B can expect has gone down by even more—from £17,390 to £16,660. That is a significant drop, so it is not surprising to learn of the great difficulties that many authorities have had not only in recruiting teachers, but in retaining them.
  We must also take into account the fact that the Government, through all the reports of the interim advisory committee, have consistently failed fully to fund any of the awards. I pay tribute to the IAC because its reports have been good, but I cannot pay tribute to the Government, who have failed at any stage to back the recommendations fully with cash. As a consequence of that, since the 1986 award, teachers' pay has declined rather than increased in real terms. That was made clear in the charter on pay of the latest interim advisory committee report, which states of inflation in paragraph 4.3:
  "Even if it falls back to 7·5 per cent. at the end of the financial year, as forecast by the Government, the majority of teachers will be worse off than a year previously, whatever then happens during 1990–91."
  Inflation has been higher than anticipated. Teachers are worse off than they were a year ago——
  Mr. Norris: Since we are discussing members of the hon. Gentleman's family, he will know that I have the honour to represent his mother, who ploughs a lonely furrow as a Labour councillor in my constituency. The hon. Gentleman will therefore know from personal experience that, if the public are asked to judge between the words of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State and the hon. Gentleman on recruitment, they will know whom to believe.
  In my constituency, a dreadful letter promising dire consequences for September 1989 was issued to parents at the beginning of the summer term of that year. Understandably, it worried them and many of them wrote to me. In fact, at the beginning of September, all but a handful of posts were filled and that handful represented no more posts than are usually vacant at any time of year. This year, the same process was repeated—the same scaremongering, the same stories and the same anxiety among parents—following which exactly the same happened in September. All vacancies were filled, barring a mere half dozen which represented the usual vacancy factor. Does that not show that my right hon. and learned Friend's statistics are much more valid than the hon. Gentleman's qualitative observations?
  Mr. Straw: I am glad to know that the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris) is accusing Mr. Paul White, the Conservative chairman of Essex county council, of scaremongering. Mr. White is also chairman of the Conservative group on the Association of County Councils, and now chairman of the Convention of Local Education Authorities. He is a responsible man, and he has said what everyone involved in education knows—that there are increasing difficulties in recruiting and retaining teachers.
  It is perfectly likely that there are people in front of classes, but the hon. Gentleman should know that the proportion of people who are not qualified to teach the subjects that they are having to teach increased between

  763
  1984 and 1988 and in certain subjects now stands at more than 50 per cent. If the hon. Gentleman were to speak to anyone running a school in his constituency or elsewhere, he would find that the numbers of recruits for any vacancy and the quality of recruits for that vacancy are lower and will get worse.
  Mr. Steinberg: In the north, where I come from, there is a phrase known as "arguing the cheat". I am afraid that the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris) is arguing the cheat now. He said earlier that he was delighted that his local authority would be able to opt out and negotiate privately, because of the problems that it faced in recruiting teachers. He now says that there are no problems in Essexs and no vacancies—teachers are easy to come by. He cannot argue both ends of the stick.
  Mr. Norris: Yes, I can.
  Mr. Straw: Knowing the hon. Gentleman's previous occupation, I am sure that he will argue each end of the stick. If he cannot find the engine in the front, he will tell us that it is in the back. But he serves neither himself nor his constituents well if he goes on peddling this sort of nonsense. He should go around a few schools. I know the position in west Essex rather better than he does; teacher shortages there are as severe now as in the early 1960s.
  Opening the debate, the Secretary of State said that two of the candidates in the leadership struggle were behind the policies in the Bill. He suggested that the other candidate, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), might also be behind them, with the implication that he might not be.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: The other two were in the Government who devised the Bill. The right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) is not in the Government, but so far as I am aware he intends to vote for the Bill.
  Mr. Straw: It is useful to know that the right hon. Member for Henley will not be in the Government. I advise the Secretary of State to keep his options open.
  The right hon. Member for Henley said two weekends ago that he wanted to move towards central payment of teachers' salaries by the Exchequer. When that was put to the Prime Minister by the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor), the Prime Minister replied on 13 November that the effect would be to add 4p or 5p to income tax. That is the calculation arrived at, taking account of the present local authority contribution to teachers' salaries.
  Yesterday, I asked the Secretary of State and the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the impact of such a move would be. I appreciate that both have other things on their minds, but I am sorry to say that the Secretary of State dodged the question and refused to tell me the present size of the local authority contribution to teachers' pay. I have yet to receive an answer from the Chancellor. May we take it that what the Prime Minister said on 13 November was correct—that if, as the right hon. Member for Henley suggested, we move to full payment of teachers' salaries by the Exchequer, it would add 4p or 5p to income tax?
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: If that was all that was done and no money was clawed back from local government, that would indeed be true.
  Mr. Straw: That is a useful point of reference for future discussions.
  Mr. Clarke: Is such a move Opposition policy? I do not think that any Conservatives have suggested that we do that.
  Mr. Straw: The right hon. Member for Henley has suggested it. He has also suggested that it is possible to do it without raising income tax. He even held out the prospect of cuts in income tax—Conservative Members with a late vote to cast may wish to take that into account. The right hon. Gentleman certainly did not convince me or anyone else. It is not the policy of the Opposition and it will not be the policy of the Labour Government to move in that direction.
  It is always my belief that the formal structure of any negotiating arrangements should as far as possible reflect the reality of the interests involved. The reality of teachers' employment and pay is that there are three groups of interests—teachers and head teachers who are represented by six associations, the employers who in practice are the local authority associations, and the Government. It is important to be clear as to how and why the Government's interest arises. As with any public sector pay settlement of this size, it arises partly out of the Government's interest in the total size of public spending and their interest to ensure that inflation is kept as low as possible. If that were the whole of the Government's interest in teachers' pay, it could be coped with through the usual arrangements relating to the revenue support grant settlement. That is the only mechanism for registering the Government's interest in, say, local authority manual workers' pay settlements and the APC and T settlement—and it works satisfactorily.
  It has long been accepted, however, that the Government have a wider interest in teachers' pay, arising from the Secretary of State's statutory responsibility for the supply and training of teachers and for other aspects of the education service, and from the political fact of life that any Government will be held partly responsible for the performance of the education service.
  With that in mind, there are three ways of representing the Government's interest—directly in negotiations, which was the approach taken by Burnham; by the review body to which the Government give evidence and then enter the caveat that they will accept its conclusions save when there are clear and compelling reasons for changing the view of the review body; and thirdly, the Government can be the final arbiter and take reserve powers over negotiations.
  The Bill reflects the third approach. It gives wide powers to the Secretary of State to override the outcome of negotiations and to establish a teachers' pay committee when negotiations have failed or when their conclusion is unsatisfactory to the Secretary of State. The committee's conclusions can then be overriden by the Secretary of State and his overriding of its conclusions or his endorsement of them would not be the subject of automatic discussion and approval by the House under the affirmative resolution procedure. The Secretary of State is taking wide and unnecessary powers, for which he is not accountable. By the by, in taking those powers, he is also in breach of the International Labour Organisation convention.

  765
  As I read the Bill, and having listened to the Secretary of State, there seems to be no stage until the completion of negotiations or their breakdown at which the Secretary of State is obliged to state his priorities and constraints for the teachers' pay settlement for the following year. It' that is so, it injects a wholly unnecessary element of chance into the negotiations. The Secretary of State may well have a bottom line—for example, on the global sum available or on something that he regards as very important in terms of the structure of salary scales or conditions. If he keeps quiet, the local authorities and trade unions could enter into negotiations in good faith, reach an agreement which was outwith the Secretary of State's view and only then would the negotiators discover that what they had negotiated in good faith and without notice to the contrary from the Secretary of State was actually unacceptable to him.
  If the Secretary of State believes that certain issues are important, it is far better that the negotiators are aware of those interests at an early stage. The Secretary of State should not be able at a later stage to raise issues which require him to overturn the outcome of negotiations if he has not given notice of those issues. I am not claiming that the Secretary of State should be a secret party to the negotiations or that he must dot every last comma——
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: The committee can refer back.
  Mr. Straw: —but it seems to me that the negotiators should have a rough idea of the global sum available or of the likely ball park in terms of finance. That is covered by what the Secretary of State said about inter-quartile settlements.
  If the Secretary of State had a particular view about the need to retain new teachers in the service—something that I believe is important—and regarded that as a sticking point in the outcome of negotiations, it would be important for the negotiators to be aware of that. It should not be an imposition on the negotiators, but they should have notice of the Secretary of State's opinion. It would be open to the negotiators to negotiate knowing the Secretary of State's view, or for them to try to change the Secretary of State's mind. I hope that the Secretary of State will take that point on board.
  I said a moment ago that the Bill's provisions appear to be in breach of the requirements of the International Labour Organisation, a point that was made powerfully by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery). In the Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts, the Secretary of State was scornful of the ILO. That is part of his stock in trade when he is in difficulty, but the ILO needs to be treated with more respect because we are a signatory to it and at no stage have the Government sought to resile from their commitment to it.
  The ILO's comments about the structure are serious. It has stated that the Government, through
  "the Secretary of State appears to have an absolute discretion to disregard any recommendations with which it disagrees, even if that recommendation has the full support of all parties to the negotiating process. This does not leave the 'final decision' with 'the parties'. The Government has not attempted to justify its proposals on the basis of 'compelling reasons of national economic interest'."
  I have spelt out what I believe to be the entirely legitimate interests of any Government in teachers' pay. We all accept that there must be a final arbiter in what can
  766
  sometimes be difficult negotiations, but there is no doubt that these arrangements go too far and are in breach of the ILO convention.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I believe that the hon. Gentleman has quoted the opinion of a committee of laymen in the ILO. It is not a legal opinion. That committee received no representations from the Government about breach of the convention, so it cannot be said at the moment to be the authoritative view of the ILO. If the ILO is minded to come to that opinion, that is because it has failed to understand that teachers in this country are employed on a basis whereby although the employer is the local authority, central Government provide about two thirds of the cost.
  I can well understand that that rather unusual situation is not replicated in most ILO member states. Most of those states would recognise the Government's right to determine the level of a pay settlement for civil servants where that is paid in full and they would expect a Government to keep out of negotiations in which the Government were not the employer. That is the approach in this country. The problem is that the ILO has not cottoned on to the fact that although we are not strictly the employer, central Government provide two thirds of the cost. That is why, as we all agree, the Government have a legitimate interest in the outcome of negotiations and must be allowed to bring their influence to bear.
  Mr. Straw: There were some worried looks in the officials' Box as the Secretary of State said that the ILO committee had not considered the Government's reply. The committee received the Government's reply dated 4 October 1990. In its preamble to the conclusions, it recites in great detail exactly what the Government had to say. I will lend the Secretary of State my copy, but he needs to do something about his briefing. A committee considered the matter, but it had full notice of the Government's position.
  I wish to refer briefly to the opt-out arrangements. Most of us had hopes that the end of the Thatcher era would lead to an end to the paranoia which has unfortunately characterised much of the Government's approach to local authorities and trade unions. Sad to say, looking at the Bill, the chance of that habit of the past II years being changed seems slim.
  The United Kingdom is a very large country with a lot of people in it—[Laughter.] Small countries do not need to have their administration divided regionally and locally.
  The size of this country means that any national service must have its administration split, regionally and locally. The choice is either to have a service administered by local authorities which are locally elected and accountable or, as with the national health service, to have regional and local administration by appointed, unaccountable bodies often packed with partisan appointments with which the Secretary of State is all too familiar.
  I believe that we are better off with a model under which local authorities run the education service, as that produces better administration, better value for money and is also better politics for the governing party—something that the present Government always miss—because responsibility can be shared for the kind of service that is produced. Allowing local authorities to opt out of pay negotiations, as with permitting schools to opt out of local authority control, is not a clearly thought through

  767
  policy, but a piece of guerrilla warfare against the established position of local authorities. As policy, it is inherently irresponsible.
  The test of any policy is what happens if it works. The previous Secretary of State for Education and Science was frightened about the kind of conclusion that would occur if the policy of schools opting out actually worked. On 13 October, he told the Financial Times:
  "if a majority of the nation's schools did opt out, the result could be an administrative nightmare for central government, which would have to supervise and fund thousands of schools."
  That is exactly the case. Opting out may be able to work administratively for a handful of schools, but if a large number of schools opt out, that will replicate all the problems which occur in administering the health service and a parallel system of administration would have to be set up.
  Exactly the same thing would happen if a large number of local authorities opt out of pay negotiations. The Secretary of State said that he anticipated 75 per cent. of local authorities opting out of pay negotiations. Where does that leave the Government's legitimate interest in the outcome of those negotiations? If they all opt out, the Government cannot take any interest in the outcome of the negotiations. The Secretary of State blithely says that he is perfectly willing to anticipate that, but is he willing to anticipate a situation in which the only constraint that the Government can exercise over teachers' pay is through the revenue support grant mechanism which has no control over or say in the conditions or structure of teachers' pay? Is that the conclusion at which the Secretary of State wishes to arrive?
  Mr. Clarke: Those that opt out would be making a comparison between the national arrangements in which the Government were engaged and having their own local arrangements where they would have to decide what policies they could afford. I described the circumstances in which I thought that local education authorities would make their own arrangements where they had specific management objectives—for example, particular recruitment problems which the local authority in Essex could not overcome without using that option. I do not think that that policy poses a threat and I am not altogether sure whether the hon. Member for Blackburn is against it.
  Mr. Straw: Either the Secretary of State has not understood my question or, more likely, he has decided not to answer it, for reasons that I well understand. There is a fatal contradiction between the position that he took 10 minutes ago, when he not only argued strongly for the Government to maintain a financial interest in the settlement and pay two thirds of the money but said that the Government have a major interest in the nature of the education service.
  Mr. Clarke: I did not.
  Mr. Straw: With great respect, the Secretary of State did say that, as the record will show. He now says that the Government's only interest is in the overall pay bill, not the structure of the teaching profession. I believe—I think that the Secretary of State believes in truth—that the Government have an interest in the structure of the profession, the conditions of employment, and whether
  768
  heads and deputies should be paid more, relative to other groups. The Secretary of State must consider that issue before allowing individual authorities to opt out of a national pay framework by picking up notes on the back of an envelope written by the Adam Smith Institute without any clear thought about the final conclusion.
  We accept the need for local authorities and governors of voluntary-aided schools to have a wide measure of discretion over teachers' pay. It is our judgment that the framework established by the interim advisory committee secures a good balance between the need for a national framework and the need for local discretion. It would be unwise, even for the present Government, to begin to dismantle or stage guerrilla attacks on the framework before it has had a chance to settle properly.
  What will the consequence be of allowing individual local authorities or grant-maintained schools to opt out of a national framework, especially when the Government do not intend to give those authorities any more money? The consequence will be that some local authorities, those which can command the greatest increase in resources, and some schools, those that can raise cash from parents, will pay more. At a time of teacher shortages—they do exist—the consequence will be that the richer, wealthier authorities will pay teachers more at the expense of the poor authorities with the greatest problems. Precisely that consequence has flown as a consequence of city technology colleges paying their teachers more than the scales that authorities in surrounding districts are able to pay their teachers.
  How on earth can the opting-out procedure improve the standards of the one third of children who are getting a raw deal, usually to be found in those local authorities with the least resources? What will the balkanisation of a national pay framework do for teachers' mobility? It is important that teachers are mobile.
  Under the provisions for a local authority to opt out of national pay negotiations, at least that local authority has to apply to the Secretary of State, who then makes a decision about the arrangements. Under the proposals for a grant-maintained school to opt out, under the arrangements announced in April, there was an obligation on the governors of a grant-maintained school to consult with staff. That proposal was contained in the Department of Education and Science press notice of 26 April. The Bill, however, contains no obligation for the governors to consult anybody. In addition, once an application has been made by the governors, the Secretary of State has no discretion to refuse the application. If the Secretary of State has discretion to judge whether the arrangements are appropriate in respect of a local authority, why can he not exercise his discretion in respect of a grant-maintained school?
  Mr. Clarke: Because the governors of a grant-maintained school have a discrete budget and have responsibility for keeping the school solvent, and are bound to operate within those confines. A local education authority has a much bigger budget and the scale is quite different. It is conceivable that the local education authority might be pursuing a policy of confronting the Government on their financial contribution, which the Government would like to approve. At the national level, where we are agreed that the Government must have an interest, the contribution has a direct bearing on the Government's issuing of revenue support grant.

  769
  If a local authority seeks to leave the system. or a grant-maintained school breaks out of its own violition, they do so knowing that the Government's national obligation has already been defined and they are constrained by what they know to be the available resources. That system is not anarchic and does not constitute balkanisation—it merely allows a further logical extension of the local flexibility that we already have, and which I was pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman welcome a few moments ago.
  Mr. Straw: The policy is quite different from local flexibility and will lead to a two-tier service, particularly in the context in which the Government seek to bribe schools to opt out of local authority control by giving them money that they could not otherwise have. It does not seem sensible for the Secretary of State to have some sort of reserve power over the applications from grant-maintained schools. What happens if Stratford school, which has been allowed to opt out and is now losing most of its pupils, suddenly decides to pay its teachers on a different scale? That could have a further serious and damaging effect on the education of the children in that school.
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett: Why?
  Mr. Straw: Because it could lead to a further loss of teachers—children have to be taught by someone. The opting-out system is destroying that school. Given the Secretary of State's responsibility for the education of those children, he should have reserve powers over what may happen—[Interruption.] What did the Secretary of State say?
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Order.
  Mr. Straw: The Secretary of State raised the issue of teacher shortages. The new arrangements are set against a background of serious teacher shortages. The Secretary of State is a fool to himself if he believes that teacher recruitment, retention and morale are under control, because they are not. A major survey conducted by his own Department this January showed that there had been a 50 per cent. increase in the number of teacher vacancies over a two-year period. The Secretary of State should look at that survey. I know that he has a reputation for liking neither statistics nor statisticians, but he should look more fully at the data.
  The Secretary of State spoke of recruitment to teacher training courses, which is welcome, but there are two factors that the Secretary of State should consider. First, recruitment in the sectors of most extreme shortage is down again this year. Figures for today, given to me by the Graduate Teacher Training Registry, show that maths applicants are down 760 against a target of 1,170, religious education applicants are down 219 against a target of 328, home economics applicants are down 60 against a target of 120 and craft design and technology applicants are down 240 against a target of 400. Those problems of under-recruitment now are built on year-by-year problems of under-recruitment.
  Secondly, the Secretary of State should bear in mind that of every three people who enter teacher training, only one is left in teaching five years after qualification. It is no good the Secretary of State merely reading out his brief about low levels of wastage. There are terrifying levels of
  770
  wastage through teacher training courses, between qualification and entry to the profession, and from the profession, especially in the first five years. It is because of those wastage levels that there are as many people with teaching qualifications outside the school system as within the school system—even the Secretary of State's officials confirm that. If it were all so wonderful, we should not be in that position.
  The long title of the Bill refers to making arrangements for teachers' pay and connected purposes. In the Bill, the Government have missed a great opportunity to embark on a programme to re-establish teachers' professionalism and sense of pride. The Bill should contain measures properly to increase the recruitment, retention and morale of teachers and should establish a general teachers council. That was recommended by the all-party Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts, it would cost little and it would dramatically improve teachers' sense of professionalism and self-esteem.
  We need a reform of teacher training with much better induction and support, and the Government must tackle the problem of the many people who train to teach and either do not enter the profession or drop out in the first two or three years. We need a national core curriculum for teacher training to provide many different entry routes but only one exit level—that of graduate qualification. We need to pilot teacher training schools so that the burden of inducting new young teachers does not continue to fall on those schools with a large number of vacancies and, therefore, the greatest amount of stress.
  We must have real programmes for career development for teachers. That includes appraisal. I read an interesting interview in The Times on Monday, given by the Secretary of State. As part of the general November approach of Ministers, he seems to be dumping the policy of his predecessors. Speaking of teacher appraisal and his predecessor, he said:
  "Things have changed since John made his decision, and it is apparent that it is not working on a voluntary basis."
  What has changed is that the Government realise that the previous Secretary of State made a major error by not implementing the approach for national appraisal agreed by all parties to the scheme. The Secretary of State said that the £45 million required to implement that scheme is ludicrous, and that it was the estimate of the trade unions. He should do his homework before he comes to the House.
  The estimate of £45 million in "School Teacher Appraisal: a National Framework" is not the trade union estimate but that of the working party on which two of his very senior officials sat and to which the Government are committed. The sum of £45 million is 0·5 per cent. of the teachers' pay bill. That is a small price to pay for giving the profession a proper system of career development. If such a system can be put in place, there will be much less chance of the sort of wastage that occurs at present.
  In addition to teacher appraisal, we need systems which will reward new teachers and encourage them to stay in the profession and will better reward the career classroom teacher. The speed with which Conservative Members and leadership candidates are jettisoning so much of what they previously stood for, as we have discovered in the debate, is proof—if any were needed—of the failure of the past 11 years. It also proves that the Conservative party has few coherent policies, no principles and no shame.
  The Bill is based on the tired and failed agenda of the past 11 years, on exactly that bizarre combination of

  771
  over-centralisation and near anarchy which was the hallmark of the 1987 Act. It will give unnecessary power to the Secretary of State for which he will not be properly accountable. It will divide and weaken the profession, and that will place at risk better standards of education. We shall oppose it in the Lobby.
  5.12 pm
  Mr. Bob Dunn: I apologise in advance to the House because I shall not be able to remain for the whole of the debate owing to a long-standing and important commitment in another part of the Palace of Westminster.
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett: My hon. Friend is the returning officer.
  Mr. Dunn: I am not the returning officer, but one day I hope to be.
  I have known the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) for 11 years, and I know of him for many years before our election to the House in 1979. I can go back the best part of a quarter of a century to the time when the hon. Gentleman was a student leader and I was a student. I remember him coming to address a student body in Manchester, when he was described as shallow, devious and vituperative. I am glad to say that he has remained true to the promise of his youth. His recent comments about my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister were disgraceful. He reached a new low in vituperation. I have heard it said of the hon. Gentleman, "Show him a belt and he has to hit below it."
  On 18 July, I asked the Labour party to make plain its intentions about the future of selective education in north-west Kent. The hon. Member for Durham, North-West (Ms. Armstrong) promised to send me a copy of the Labour party's review. I still await that document. A few days ago, the hon. Member for Blackburn rather churlishly refused to let me intervene, and at that time the hon. Lady again said that she would send me a copy of the review. I am still waiting.
  The hon. Member for Blackburn spoke about re-creating the old coalition of vested interests. There was nothing new or special in his speech. I was an Under-Secretary at the Department of Education and Science for five years, from 1983 to 1988. During that time, in 1985 and 1986, the Burnham arrangements collapsed. Those arrangements worked to a degree for almost 70 years and were based on consensus, the coming together of the various interests to decide on teachers' pay but not on conditions of service. Percentage or cash increases reflected the needs of the local authority, the schools and the Government.
  Unfortunately, that consensus was destroyed by the coming together and working together of left-wing local education authority leaders and left-wing trade unionists. When that consensus was destroyed—I am sure that hon. Members will agree that it was destroyed—it created an inevitable vacuum in the arrangements by which teachers' pay was settled. Burnham was finished.
  I welcome the attempts by successive Secretaries of State to make the interim arrangements work. Clearly, those arrangements were conceived as only temporary. Something had to be arranged which would reflect the
  772
  genuine and decent interests of the various parties. I totally support the Bill, because it does much to square the circle of the difficulties that we have inherited.
  I should like to deal with an issue in which I have taken a special interest in recent years—the differences in teachers' pay, recruitment and retention between the south-east and the rest of the country. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister started her political career in my Kent constituency 40 years ago. In that constituency, there are some difficulties in arranging an adequate and varied short list for senior teacher posts. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris) spoke about that. In view of the national pay scale, no ambitious teacher is prepared to forego the quality of life and living standards that obtain in the north-west and propose to give up his home by applying for a job in London or the Home Counties. Those areas have a higher cost of living and certainly a higher cost of housing.
  On many occasions in the House and to different Secretaries of State, I have advocated the need for regional pay and for schools to become cost-centred pay bargaining units. Therefore, I welcome the part of the Bill that provides for local education authorities or grant-maintained schools to opt out of national pay bargaining arrangements. If the local education authority or the grant-maintained schools that I currently have and that I will have decide to adopt a degree of local flexibility and to pay the market rate, that would be good for the schools in my constituency.
  If this debate is to be genuine, we must recognise that one of our problems is that a science or chemistry graduate with a good degree could expect a salary of between £10,000 and £14,000 on leaving university if starting at a pharmaceutical plant somewhere in London, but if he or she started teacher training or began probationary work in a school, the salary would be much lower.
  We need the flexibility to recruit staff if we are to bring teachers back into teaching. Many graduates who leave teacher training colleges or university with bachelor of educaiton degrees do not even step inside a school. Those are the men and women whom we need to bring back into our schools so that we can give variety and choice to those who govern our schools when they are recruiting. Therefore, I welcome the opt-out arrangement, because it will give schools flexibility when determining their recruitment arrangements.
  More importantly, however, it will show school governors the realism that they must adopt in their day-to-day and month-to-month running of our schools. There is no doubt among my hon. Friends—or, I am sure, among Opposition Members—that the arrangements for the local financial management of schools has opened the eyes of many school governors as never before.
  School governors, who often used to be ciphers who sat on the platform at speech day or prize day and went to the annual cheese and wine party given by the parent teachers association, often had no concept of the problems facing the local education authorities. If a window was broken in the school, a docket was sent to county hall or to the local education office nearby and, about a week later, someone from direct labour would turn up to repair the window at great cost. Giving school governing bodies control over the budget has led to the inevitable realisation that the administration's life is not always as easy as they have

  773
  thought. Governing bodies have started to realise that those who run our education authorities have to decide their priorities.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Wolfson) can confirm, my county of Kent has suffered in the past 10 years. We were starved of financial support by the last Labour Government because our county would not go down the comprehensive route. When there is talk about "evil women"—I deprecate such talk in public life—the person who should stand at the Bar to apologise to my hon. Friends and to me is the right hon. Shirley Williams, for the great damage that she did to our schools when she was Secretary of State for Education and Science. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] There is rare unanimity in the Chamber, except for the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor). However, I know that he knows that, when the right hon. Lady was doing that demolition work, she was a member of the Labour party and acted with the full authority of the Labour Government of the day. We know jolly well that, given the opportunity—which, of course, they will not be—Opposition Members would tread the same path as before.
  Opting out will become not only fashionable but the norm. The relative advantages of such flexibility will be seen by teachers, unions and school governors alike as an enormous benefit to those who maintain our schools. If there is a problem in recruiting a science, physics or history teacher to fill a vacancy, the governors will have to take whatever decision they think fit in the light of the priorities set by the school governing body.
  I gather that The Independent was very much in favour of such flexibility on 23 July, which it described as
  "a simple and beneficial reform".
  It continued:
  "This is clearly the right thing to do … National bargaining has a number of drawbacks. It enhances the importance of the teachers' unions, whose concern for the well-being of the children is, to put it charitably, well concealed … It is one of many forms of central control that British schools would be better off without".
  The Daily Telegraph, which is a well-known paper of the centre—[Laughter.]—well, I regard it as being in the centre—also stated on 23 July that the proposals are
  "constructive and long overdue … Local bargaining would not only help to address teacher shortages, it would also show how State-run concerns need not be bound by the model of the socialist command economy".
  I am sure that no hon. Member would disagree with that.
  I hope to alert the country—there is a lot of alerting going on at the moment—to the fact that the Labour party has adopted its traditional servility to the teacher unions. Nothing has changed. It is said of the Opposition's education team: "Show me a vested interest and I will kneel before it "
  The hon. Member for Blackburn has talked about his plans for the future. In the final sentences of his speech, he said that he would like this and that. I, too, would like something and it is only a small request. I hope——
  Mr. Straw: For a job.
  Mr. Dunn: In the handing out of jobs, all hon. Members know that a tyre is never recycled twice.
  The hon. Member for Blackburn said what he would like. I make a plea to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. I hope that, in the fulness of time, he will abolish Her Majesty's inspectorate of schools and replace it with an educational audit commission, which
  774
  will have the responsibility for ensuring that the reforms that we have set in place are measured and evaluated and that there are also value-for-money assessments——
  Mr. Straw rose——
  Mr. Dunn: The hon. Gentleman knows me too well. Last time we met, he did not do me the courtesy of giving way, and I shall not give way to him now.
  Before I was so rudely interrupted, I was saying that the abolition of HMI would be welcome, as would the establishment of an educational audit commission, which could evaluate the educational reforms and give value-for-money assessments, and which should be essential and integral parts of our plans for the future.
  In conclusion, I read the reasoned amendment of the Leader of the Opposition and his supporters with great interest and a little amusement. It states:
  "That this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which, by undermining national pay arrangements, will divide and further weaken the education service".
  By their very nature, national pay arrangements divide and weaken the education service. That is why the Bill must be supported. The amendment then refers to placing "standards at risk". That is an element of cant beyond even the scope of the hon. Member for Blackburn. Time and time again in the past year, the hon. Gentleman has been challenged to make his position clear to the people of Dartford. I am the hon. Member for Dartford, and I have a responsibility to the people of Dartford. I ask the hon. Member for Blackburn whether I can now say to the people of Dartford that it is Labour party policy to abolish our grammar schools? The answer is yes, is it not?
  Mr. Straw rose——
  Mr. Dunn: No, the hon. Gentleman can act like a nodding dog. He has only to nod in answer to my questions. Can I say to the people of Dartford that the Labour party would take into local authority control the New Leigh city technology college? The answer is yes, by the nodding dog's consent. Can I say to the people of Dartford that the Labour party will take into local authority control the grant-maintained grammar school for girls at Wilmington? The nodding dog is saying, "Yes, yes, yes." Can I say to the people of Dartford that all the systems will be abolished and all that they will be permitted is a comprehensive system and no choice? The nodding dog is saying, "Yes, yes, yes."
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett: What about the assisted places scheme?
  Mr. Dunn: I shall come to that in a minute. Perhaps my hon. Friend will contain his fervour.
  The Opposition's amendment claims that the Bill will "place standards at risk". High standards are achieved only through competition, the ability to choose, and parental pressure. When there is only one system in a community, which permits no choice, how can there be standards?
  Mr. Burt: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is possible that the standards of the Leader of the Opposition could be raised if there was a little competition on the Opposition Benches?
  Mr. Dunn: I would not want to intrude into that debate. As one who has gone through the past few weeks with

  775
  some trepidation and concern, I think that it would be better if the Labour party held its leadership election in the near future——
  Mr. Patrick Cormack: The Labour party is facing a crisis.
  Mr. Dunn: My hon. Friend is right. However, I do not want to stray from the essential theme of my speech. I hope that my hon. Friends will be quiet so that I can go down my chosen route.
  Choice means standards. Variety and a range of provision lead to an improvement in standards, not the attitude, "You can have any colour of car you want, as long as it is black." That is Labour party policy, and that is why it is ashamed to state its true policy.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) said, not only does the Opposition's policy mean the end of all those provisions, and the imposition of one system; it also means the abolition of the assisted places scheme. I served as a Back Bencher on the Committee that considered the Bill that introduced that scheme, and the introduction of city technology colleges was my idea. I can truly tell my constituents that the Labour party would do all the things I have mentioned because there is an amity of interest—[HON. MEMBERS: "A what?"]—an amity of interest on the Opposition Front Bench.
  Mr. Fatchett: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Dunn: No.
  The Opposition's amendment states that the Bill
  "is based on no coherent strategy to improve teacher recruitment, retention and morale".
  The Government have a strategy for the raising of standards, for the improvement of parental choice, for variety, and for the accountability of governors and schools to the consumer. There is nothing wrong with that.
  There is a noticeable absence of any coherent strategy from the Opposition. Why? It is because nothing is said by Opposition Members unless Mr. Mandelson allows it to be said. Every Opposition speech must be stamped with the approval not of the Egg Marketing Board but of Mr. Mandelson.
  Mr. Fatchett: The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's remarks shows that he has little regard for standards. He should update the information that he gives to the House. Peter Mandelson is no longer in the employ of the Labour party.
  The hon. Gentleman made a number of points about standards. Could he explain why, when Martin Turner published figures in the summer that showed a decline in reading standards, the Government had no answer and had no figures to show what was happening to reading standards in our schools?
  Mr. Dunn: The hon. Gentleman's intervention was both sketchy and shaky. Although Mr. Mandelson is no longer in the direct employ of the Labour party, I suspect that the aroma lingers on. Somewhere in the office of the Leader of the Opposition, there is a little gnome in the image of the hon. Member for Blackburn. It sits there and says, "No, you can't say that. Yes, you can say that." That is dangerous for an Opposition who seek to expose our difficulties. We have a strategy and a commitment.
  776
  I will read the speeches of Opposition Members, especially those of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery), the grandfather of the Labour party. I know that he will make a robust and telling speech, and I am sure that he will be the first to say that his party has no policy. In the light of what was said today, it has not, it will not, and it cannot.
  5.36 pm
  Mr. Martin Flannery: The hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) can be delightfully droll. During the 300 and more hours that we faced each other across the Committee Room when we were debating the so-called reform Bill—I would call it a deformed Bill—he enlightened many a 30 seconds with lovely stories. He came out with the most reactionary thoughts in the most charmingly acceptable language, as he has just done again. I pay him a tribute, because after he was a junior Minister there must have been a time when he went to see the Prime Minister and said to her, "Yes, yes, yes," but she said, "No, no, no," and threw him out. Indeed, she did that with many Conservative Members, one or two of whom are here today. She was merciless, but they have had their revenge. The daggers came out and they threw her out. The hon. Gentleman may even be invited back into the Government.
  I want to talk about the reality of the Bill, something that the hon. Gentleman avoided with some skill. I am sorry that the Secretary of State is not in the Chamber. I have known him for quite a long time. Last week, he came to the Select Committee with a couple of officials from his Department. I have served on that Select Committee almost from the beginning. It is customary for Ministers to come to the Committee with the serried ranks of the inspectors who know about education and who can be appealed to about education. Instead, during the whole of the research into teacher shortages, one of the two officials was the only person who told us that he had never encountered low teacher morale. He was at the Select Committee last week, and when he was asked a question, he answered it typically with a monosyllable. I think that he said, "No." The other official said practically nothing.
  There is a qualitative change in the approach to education. Instead of the inspectors who know and understand education, we had a couple of departmental bureaucrats who wanted to talk only about money because money is the key to what is happening.
  When I heard the Secretary of State waxing lyrical about the high salaries that teachers are supposed to enjoy, I thought that he should contact Andrew Lloyd Webber's agent, to see whether his words could be set to music. It could be called, "Kenneth Clarke Superstar" or something like that. Elaine Page could pay the role of a prima donna schoolteacher, singing how joyous it is to teach 40 kids, and how lovely to get a miserable wage and have practically no morale. That is the true posiition, but the Government refuse to face up to it at any cost. That will be a great part of their undoing in what I hope will be the not-too-distant future.
  I refer now to the terms in which the International Labour Organisation report talks about the Bill. It proves that the Government broke international law with the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987. It is no use the Secretary of State arguing that the report was produced by only a minor committee, because it is one of the major

  777
  committees of the ILO, which itself is affiliated to the United Nations Organisation—and the report has its agreement too. It is not just a piece of paper, but a major report.
  Paragraph 72 of the report states:
  "The arrangements described by the Government in its communication of 4 October 1990"—
  yet the Secretary of State said that there had been no communication—
  "do not appear to be compatible with these principles. The Government, through the Secretary of State, appears to have an absolute discretion to disregard any recommendation with which it disagrees, even if the recommendation has the full support of all parties to the negotiating process. This does not leave the 'final decision' with 'the parties'. The Government has not attempted to justify its proposals on the basis of `compelling reasons of national economic interest.' Like the provisions of the 1987 Act, the new arrangements cannot be regarded as 'exceptional' in character or as operating only for a 'reasonable period.' Nor do they appear to provide `adequate safeguards' to protect workers' living standards."
  The following paragraph states that the Bill is really only about consultation and has nothing to do with negotiation, because whatever negotiations have taken place through whatever parties were involved, they would be disregarded, and could be disregarded, by the Secretary of State, who can then decide what the salaries of teachers should be, in his opinion.
  The hon. Member for Dartford spoke about rubber stamping, but we have seen 11 years of the Conservative party being terrified by the local headmistress. Conservative Members did not dare say a word wrong, because the Prime Minister would have thrown them out. The hon. Gentleman accuses us of rubber stamping, but we saw Conservative Members crawling and grovelling to the nearly ex-Prime Minister. I emphasise that not all Conservative Members did that. Some noble souls did not grovel, but they paid the price.
  The ILO points out that the Bill contravenes article 4 of convention 98, which was ratified by the present Government. The principles enunciated by the ILO are among those to which the Government are party, yet the Government are violating a convention to which they are a signatory. Despite that, the Secretary of State makes empty arguments in trying to prove that the ILO does not represent the organisation that it does. He will not go along with the convention but means to have his own way.
  The Bill is really saying, "No negotiation about teachers' wages—only dictatorship." That is extremely sad for everyone connected with education—including parents, children and governors—many of whom are being given all sorts of new duties that will frighten them away. Governors will be lost, because much of the work now undertaken by local education authorities will have to be done by governors.
  The Secretary of State spoke about the individual deciding his own wage, but there are no negotiations under the present system. Instead, a head can tell a teacher the wage that he will receive. Heads will be able to offer inducements—some have already done so—for teachers to opt out of national negotiations in favour of personal and private negotiations. There will then be no need for trade unions or local education authorities. in their place will be something in which the Conservative party profoundly believes—a system whereby a big stick is waved in the faces of ordinary working people, who will be told that they will receive a wage that has already been decided, with no question of any negotiation.
  778
  The ILO points out that three major aspects of the Bill violate the convention agreed by the United Nations and to which the Government were a signatory. First is the Secretary of State's power to reject any negotiated settlement with which he disagrees and to impose his own. Secondly, there is the proposal to establish a permanent body similar to the existing interim advisory committee. The third violation is the provision enabling individual LEAs and grant-maintained schools to opt out of national negotiations without establishing local negotiating machinery. Teaching staff will be left to negotiate for themselves, without any strength behind them.
  This is the second time that the ILO has found the Government in breach of international law. The Government mean to force through their legislation, knowing that it violates the rules by which every other European nation abides. It is diktat rather than negotiation, which violates not only the convention that has the support of the ILO and the United Nations but the beliefs of every other European nation.
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett: One of the claims often made by teachers' unions is that their members earn less than a London secretary. If there is one group of employees who are not unionised it is London secretaries, who are in a free market in negotiating their salaries. Does not the hon. Gentleman see a contradiction in the unions saying that teachers do not earn as much as London secretaries, when the latter are not unionised?
  Mr. Flannery: The hon. Gentleman has some kind of vendetta against unions. That is nothing strange, because I see in their places a number of Conservative Members who share that view. However, when a complaint about the Bill was lodged with the ILO, it came not just from a union but from the World Confederation of Organs of the Teaching Profession throughout the World. The hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) might try to laugh that out of existence, but the Government refuse to acknowledge that education is steadily moving into crisis. That will undoubtedly help to defeat the Government, but our children are suffering in the process.
  Schools are tumbling down around our ears for lack of money, and parents are worried sick about their children's education. Meanwhile, the Government have siphoned off more than £400 million this year to private education, and they will give another £200 million over the next couple of years—making a total of about £625 million of public money going into the assisted places scheme and city technology colleges.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: Does my hon. Friend agree that, although the Tories were jeering about the International Labour Organisation—which is affiliated to the United Nations, as he said—they have a different view when the Prime Minister supports the UN's attitude towards Iraq? Then they display complete and almost abject loyalty to it. However, if it does not suit them—almost within the same breath—they sneer at the UN and its affiliated bodies, as they have done tonight.
  Mr. Flannery: I think that every hon. Member in the Chamber will recognise the truth of what my hon. Friend has just said. Tory Members choose what is acceptable to them about the United Nations and UNESCO, but are against anything they do with which they disagree, or which costs money. At the same time, they are taking

  779
  money from our children and giving it to private education. As they know, our children are suffering. Teachers are working harder than ever and are maligned by the Conservative party, and it is no use Tory Members denying it.
  The convention which I mentioned and to which the Government have agreed, was formulated to protect citizens from abuse of power. Conservative Members are against UN conventions, signed by the Conservative party, which aim to protect citizens from the abuse of power.
  The Government will give the Secretary of State the right arbitrarily to abuse power and to breach an international law that the Government have already signed, by passing the Bill. I do not think that any Conservative Members realise that.
  I bet that no Conservative Member has the ILO report on the Bill, which is fundamental, or has read it. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Pembroke is muttering something—if only I could hear it.
  The ILO refers to the legislation as
  "fatally flawed because … the parties lack the freedom to strike their own bargain on their own terms".
  It also points out that local authorities and schools that opt out of national negotiations would be obliged only to consult, rather than to negotiate with, their teachers. The ILO report continues by telling the Government to frame their legislation differently, so that it
  "respects the right of the parties to the collective bargaining process to conclude, and to implement, their own agreement, and (ii) encourages and promotes the development and utilisation of collective bargaining machinery, in the manner envisaged by Article 4 of Convention No. 98"—
  which they have signed. That is the problem that we now face.
  The Opposition think that this faulty legislation will further disrupt our educational system in many ways—God knows, it is on the verge of major disruption and none of us wants that. We want harmony in schools. We want our children to be in smaller classes. We want teachers to have reasonable wages, to be well trained and we want plenty of them. Practically all of that is non-existent in Britain at the moment.
  Teachers' morale will sink even lower as a result of the Bill. Numerically, we are powerless to stop it and we can only argue against it to the best of our ability. Teachers will see through the trickery and the sleight of hand embodied in the Bill.
  Conservative Members do not even seem to have read the Bill, never mind the report on it. With blind loyalty to their party, Conservative Members are pushing our children into large classes. State education is in the hands of people who do not send their children to state schools—most of them do not. I see that the hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) is in the Chamber; I know that he sends his children to state schools, as he always boasts about it.
  Conservative Members do not understand state education. They want to make money out of education. They are masters and mistresses of the tawdry philosophy of the market, and they want to bring it into the classroom. Our children will be in bigger classes and will not have enough teachers. Conservative Members will then start to tell us all sorts of fables about the situation and will say that it does not exist.
  780
  The Secretary of State knows very little about education. I know that he is new. He is like a fresher in this job. He proved very clever at ruining the national health service—wards have been closed. Now it will be not merely a case of wards and hospitals closing. In addition, schools will close and classrooms will have far too many children in them. The competition that Conservatives want will mean that a school in an area where working people are doing the best for their children will not come up to their expectations, another school in a posher area will come up to expectations and the first school will close.
  What will the Conservatives do with all the empty schools, when the schools that they make into competitive successes are full? We have experienced this——
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett rose——
  Mr. Flannery: Not again, please. God bless you, your honour, you are very kind.
  Conservative Members do not understand what they are doing with our education system, which has been built up during the best part of 150 years—[Laughter.] It is no good laughing about it.
  Whoever becomes the Tory leader—we are not bothered who—will have to face the cold grey light of political dawn, a languishing education system, a national health service that is in great difficulties, and all the other things that Conservative Members laugh about but do not know about.
  More and more teachers will opt out of the profession. The Secretary of State told us that the number of people applying to become teachers had increased. Honestly, Madam Deputy Speaker, when he opens his mouth practically anything can come out—he says anything. He tries to make the situation look beautiful but anyone who visits schools or who talks to parents or governors knows that they are at their wits' end to know what to do after the Government's depredations on the education service. Children will suffer, schools will suffer, and we shall fall even further behind competing nations.
  What should the Government do? I would tell them, but they do not need telling. They know what they ought to do, but are consciously refusing to do it. The only answer is to restore free negotiating rights—six separate teachers' unions negotiating with their employers. When they have come to an agreement, they will be able to go to the Secretary of State knowing that, more than likely, it will be ratified. If he does not want to ratify it, he will discuss with them what he thinks is wrong.
  What is fundamental—this is what makes the Conservatives choke on what they ought to do—is to give more money to education. It is the only way. More money means more teachers, smaller classes, better schools, more equipment and more books. It means all the things that we now need in our education system. Conservative Members call it throwing money at a problem, as if they ever threw money at our problems. They throw money only at their own problems, such as Guinness. I have just outlined the only answer. There is no other way. This tawdry Bill is another statement to the general public that the Conservatives will not change one iota, but will continue in the wretched manner in which they have conducted themselves thus far.
  5.58 pm
  Mr. James Pawsey: Towards the end of his speech, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) referred to the need for more money. I wonder if he has noted an interesting omission from the list of supporters of the Opposition amendment. If he looks at the Order Paper, he will see that there is no shadow Treasury spokesman in the list. That is a clear sign of just how much Opposition Members care about our children's education. Opposition Members say that they will make improvements only as resources allow, as we have heard on so many occasions. It is clear from that omission that resources will not be allowed.
  The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) said that, during a five-year period, one in three teachers leaves the profession. At first sight that seems a fairly damning statistic, but one must understand that there are many women in the teaching profession who will get married and have children. Therefore, it is natural that a number of people should leave the profession. As we all know, they will return when their families start to grow up. Therefore, I do not share the hon. Gentleman's feelings of gloom.
  I welcome the Bill, because I believe that, over time, it will help to raise teacher morale. For some years, teachers have, with some strength, complained about the loss of their negotiating rights. The Bill remedies that and, after a reasonable period of reflection, it will be welcomed by teachers, heads and others in the profession. There have been substantial consultations between the Government and teacher unions as well as with the employers—the local education authorities.
  Mr. Roy Beggs: Consultation is not simply a matter of arranging to hear the views of another party. Consultation fails miserably when Governments fail to listen. I hope that the hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr Pawsey) agrees that consultation should be meaningful and should result in a recognition of real concerns and some effort being made to meet them.
  Mr. Pawsey: I am pleased that I gave way to the hon. Gentleman, because I can tell him that the Government do listen. We take on board the recommendations that are made to us by various professional bodies. One can see improvements and modifications that have taken place in various Bills as a result of some of the points made to us. For example, in the Education Reform Act 1988, we adjusted the testing of seven-year-olds. Teachers said to us, quite properly, that the testing arrangements were far too bureaucratic. We took on board the points made, and we have eased the testing requirements. That is an example of how we listen.
  The Bill avoids the trap of creating son of Burnham or Burnham mark 2. It does not restore the old discredited machinery which did so much to cause dissent and divide the profession. The Bill provides for negotiations between employers and teachers under an independent chairman. The Government will not be a party to those negotiations. There will be no pre-set financial limit to the negotiations.
  I acknowledge quite readily that employers will be aware of the aggregate external finance that the Government will make available for local authority expenditure, and no doubt they will reach decisions in the light of those figures. A time limit, quite properly, will be set upon the negotations and in the event of no agreement being reached by the end of the time limit, something
  782
  similar to the existing independent advisory committee will come into play and the Government will receive recommendations from that body.
  I have made it clear in the House over a number of years that teaching is an important and honourable profession. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am pleased that my hon. Friends acknowledge that. Perhaps there is some significance in the fact that it was not acknowledged by Opposition Members. Perhaps they do not see the teaching profession in that way. I want teacher remuneration to reflect the true importance of the profession.
  As I have said previously, teachers are not always their own best advocates. We can recall the days of action which resulted in the nation's children being sent home from school I think that we all agree that that was disgraceful, and that there can be no justification for such action. Even this year, we saw a leader of a major trade union being shouted down by his own union militants. That is not a good augury. I hope that from the legislation will emerge a better understanding and greater co-operation between teacher and legislator, for the good of the nation's children.
  I said earlier that I am anxious to see teachers better remunerated. This measure will be one of the ways in which we might achieve that laudable aim.
  An article in the Daily Mail referring to the education service gives the number of teachers and the number in support services. The figures suggest that, out of any 10 people on a local education authority payroll, only about six are teaching children. If that figure is true, the profession is out of balance. This matter has considerable relevance to the debate. It is a truism that one can only spend a pound once. One may spend it on either support staff or teachers. I should like to see much greater funding being made available for teachers and less for support staff. Funding for pay increases exists but it needs to find its way to the teachers in the classroom.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: There are many different sorts of non-teaching staff. Some of them within classrooms provide support for those with special needs or help the teachers when they have to cover other work in the classroom. I assume that the hon. Member does not think that such special support should be cut.
  Mr. Pawsey: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because that enables me to refer in greater detail to the article in the Daily Mail. The article divides non-teaching staff, saying that 10 per cent. are involved in central administration, 20 per cent. in schools administration and 10 per cent. in miscellaneous duties.
  Mr. Dick Douglas: rose——
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to raise a point with me?
  Mr. Douglas: The hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) is reading figures from a newspaper. Is that in order?
  Madam Deputy Speaker: It is perfectly in order for the hon. Gentleman to quote from any publication, and that is what he is doing.
  Mr. Pawsey: I had finished the quotation. I believe that it provides the answer for the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor). It underlines my point that we should be making resources available for those who teach. Teachers require

  783
  the extra money, not the bureaucrats or the others in shire hall or wherever. The money should find its way to those who teach; I hope that hon. Members will not disagree with that.
  Ms. Hilary Armstrong rose——
  Mr. Pawsey: Perhaps the hon. Lady disagrees.
  Ms. Armstrong: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would care to turn his attention to the increased number of bureaucrats at the Department of Education and Science. My understanding is that, in the past two years, that number has risen considerably, far more than in any other section of education.
  Mr. Pawsey: One of the hon. Lady's hon. Friends expressed concern about the likely activities of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. He said that he would be likely to cut the numbers involved. The hon. Lady cannot have it both ways. Either it is good to reduce numbers or it is not. I think that we have probably got it right at the Department of Education and Science.
  It is interesting that the Association of County Councils said that it welcomed the proposals in the Queen's Speech to introduce an early Bill to establish permanent negotiating arrangements covering teachers' pay. It offers a general welcome to the proposed legislation and supports the restoration of direct employer-employee pay bargaining.
  That brings me to a point that incurred the displeasure of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery). I support the view that local education authorities should be allowed to negotiate rates of pay for their own teaching staff. That point was well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) in his memorable speech. I know that this arrangement is unpopular with the trade unions. Their argument is that it will not increase the number of teachers. That argument was developed by the hon. Member for Blackburn. He said that, if one authority chooses to pay more money, teachers will be attracted to it from neighbouring authorities. I understand the argument, but I do not agree with it. When enacted, the Bill will encourage teachers who have left the profession to return to it.
  The National Union of Teachers says that 360,000 teachers have left the teaching profession. That suggests that there is a remarkably large reservoir of teachers whom we might reach. The Bill is one way to do that; it may bring more teachers back into the profession. That would answer the shortage arguments that have been advanced. The Bill may persuade women who have left the profession to have families to return to it.
  The effect of this part of the Bill will be to increase the number of teachers. Again I refer to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford: that it is interesting that there are other professions in which shortages occur. For example, no one seriously argues that there should be a flat rate for accountants. The decision about how much accountants should get paid is left to individual employers. Given their particular conditions, they pay what they think is fair. If that is right for accountants, why is it not right for teachers? If it works for accountants, why should the same argument not apply equally to teachers?
  784
  If the Bill leads to additional funds being made available for teachers, I shall welcome it wholeheartedly. The independents decide what they pay scales should be. They have little difficulty in encouraging teachers to come forward. I support the view that grant-maintained schools should be able to negotiate the pay of their staff. They would then be able to respond much more quickly to any weakness in their teaching forces. If that encourages more schools to apply for grant-maintained status, so be it. I welcome it absolutely.
  I said earlier that one of the effects of the Bill will be to increase the number of teachers. I am aware that the teacher unions believe that the teaching profession is short of about 10,000 teachers. That conflicts strongly with the Department's vacancy survey in September 1990, which shows that 24,000 posts were filled during the summer. On 3 September, only 1,400 posts were not filled. An interesting fact is that only three of the 104 local education authorities reported a larger number of vacancies in September 1990, than in January of this year.
  During the past 11 years, this Administration have introduced a number of substantial reforms. They will be truly effective, however, only if they are supported by the majority of the nation's teachers. The majority of United Kingdom teachers are dedicated to their profession and to the children in their charge. This measure is one way in which we can show our support for teachers and direct more money towards them.
  6.13 pm
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: To judge by what happened last Thursday, it seems always to fall to the lot of the Liberal Democrats to be interrupted by an important announcement. The fact that the result of the leadership ballot is about to be made allows me to refer to our amendment. We submit that the debate should be delayed for seven days. Reference has already been made to the impact that a different leader of the Conservative party may have on the Bill. All the contenders for the leadership of the Conservative party have made announcements that could have an impact on the working of the Bill.
  Most significantly, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) has suggested that education spending and control should be centralised. If he were to go ahead with that suggestion, there would be no point in having a negotiating machinery that involves local education authorities and the teacher unions. In that case, local education authorities would not perform their present role. It would be more relevant to have a review body at Government level.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer suggests that there should be a separate review of teachers' pay. That appears to conflict with the basis of the Bill. All the leadership contenders have suggested that there should be a review of local government finance. That would lead to confusion over the opting-out proposals. One of the difficulties about the local pay determination proposals put forward by the Government is that the structure of local government finance does not provide the required flexibility to make sense of local pay determination.
  The Bill is based on the premise that there should be local education authority funding. However, that is in doubt. There appears to be a conflict, because of the basis

  785
  on which the Bill has been drafted. There are many reasons, therefore, on that score alone, for saying that the Bill ought not to be debated today.
  Another reason has been revealed more fully in the debate than I expected. It has become apparent that insufficient documents have been published dealing with the impact of local pay determination on teachers arid on local authority finance. The Government have not explained why they are doing this and why they think that it will work. When I asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science about the Department's research, he told the House that he believed that no research had taken place on the subject. He also said that he did not believe that research would have been valid.
  It is extraordinary that the Government should embark on the adventure of local pay determination without having tried to determine what the effect is likely to be on teachers' pay, teacher supply, the interaction between different local authorities and in particular the impact of richer authorities—many of them urban authorities—pushing up teacher pay levels, to the disadvantage of smaller and poorer authorities in rural areas. That is surprising, given the number of Conservative Members who represent, as I do, rural areas. I should have expected them already to be aware of the fear in rural areas about the impact of richer authorities upon smaller ones. For a variety of reasons, it is most disadvantageous that the Bill is being debated today.
  Education has been labelled by all parties and all the candidates for the leadership of the Conservative party as a priority for the 1990s. It is a key issue upon which the general election is likely to be fought. It is right that that should be so. Public confidence in the Government's commitment to education is at a very low ebb. The Government's duty is to show that they are prepared to tackle the problem constructively. We have had plenty of legislation from the Government. The problem has been the lack of funding to back it up, the speed of change, poor preparation and an environment in which teachers do not trust the Government and in which schools have not the resources to cope with the demands placed on them.
  The Bill cannot be accused of speed of change. We have been waiting far too long for the restoration of proper teacher pay machinery. It was suggested in December 1989 that a new structure would be in place by now but, as Liberal Democrats predicted, the present interim advisory committee has had to be extended for a further year.
  Part of the reason for the low morale in the profession must be that continued uncertainty and teachers' lack of involvement in the settlement of pay and conditions. I say that with some knowledge, because I have visited more than 60 schools and talked to teachers, and that was one of the subjects that they raised. Although the Bill is overdue, and although I have considerable concerns about its details, we shall not oppose its Second Reading, not because we believe that it is adequate—we shall be looking for specific changes—but because we do not want to hold up the reintroduction of the pay machinery for teachers. I am sure that the Minister would not expect us to agree with all the Bill's provisions, but we do not believe that there would be any advantage in seeking to throw it out and to hold up for perhaps another year the introduction of negotiating machinery.
  The background for my concern is teacher supply and morale. Much reference has been made to supply problems. The May 1990 report of the Select Committee
  786
  on Education, Science and Arts on teacher supply highlighted those problems and called for the restoration of negotiating rights as soon as possible. That would help to restore the status of teaching as a career, because simply putting in place the machinery will not solve the supply problem. As the most basic economist knows, part of the problem is that pay is not sufficiently high to attract the supply, and that is particularly so in certain areas. The figures have been given already, but it is fairly extraordinary that the Government, who claim economic credibility, cannot apparently accept that simple point.
  It is extraordinary to listen to Conservative Members debate that subject. They argue that the teacher shortage does not result from pay being too low, but it is also the case—[Interruption.] Some news might be coming.
  Mr. Dennis Turner: The Chancellor missed by two votes—third ballot coming up.
  Mr. Taylor: If that is so, the question of who will be the leader of the Conservative party remains unresolved. The Chancellor has missed taking the leadership of the party by two votes. There will be a third ballot and the present uncertainty will continue, not least on the future of this Bill.
  The point that I was seeking to make is that it is quite extraordinary—
  Mr. Cryer: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As you know, a competition has been going on in this place for some time, in which the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) got only 131 votes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer 185 and the Foreign Secretary 56. My point of order is that technically, as I understand it, that means a third ballot. Have you received a statement from the Prime Minister about the candidates being prevented from using Government facilities for a party political matter? That is very important, because the taxpayer does not want to finance these quarrels in the Tory party.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: I seem to have been this way before—rather like last week. The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) is a little late this week in giving us the result, which we already know. I have had no message from the Prime Minister or from any other member of the Government. The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) has the Floor.
  Mr. Taylor: I am delighted that I got there first.
  The point that I am trying to make is that Conservative Members, having denied the problem, argued that local pay determination, which would allow flexibility to increase pay in certain cases, would solve the problem of teacher supply. They tried to face both ways at the same time.
  I referred in previous debates to the problems in Cornwall, which are not typical. In many ways, we are in a better position than many authorities, but there has been a decline in applications for many posts, although quality has not been perceptibly affected. There has been some decline in applications for primary headships. I have quoted previously from local head teachers who wrote to me about the problems that they have experienced, such as the work load becoming insurmountable, people being tired, under extreme stress and losing much enthusiasm. One head teacher said:

  787
  "I have a good many years left to give to education, but my enthusiasm for teaching cannot go on indefinitely".
  Another wrote:
  "Morale in my school is at an all-time low and deteriorating."
  Four teachers wrote to me about the problems of morale in their schools, and subsequent to writing to me, two have withdrawn from the profession. They have acted on the problems that they highlighted. [Interruption.] I want to keep the Chamber informed. I understand that the former Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), is not continuing.
  Madame Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman might continue with the proposed legislation before us. If hon. Members are interested, the news is awaiting them outside—or they can approach the Chair.
  Mr. Brian Wilson: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not wish to intervene in the debate, but in the light of the developments, is it possible to arrange, at the earlier possible moment, for a statement to be made? We have been clearly led to believe that there is a prospect of change to the poll tax. If there is to be a change of leadership, may we have the earliest possible statement on what one hopes will be plans for the abolition of the poll tax?
  Madam Deputy Speaker: If an application for a statement is made to Mr. Speaker, he will ensure that it is dealt with as early as possible.
  Mr. Taylor: I hope that you will accept, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this is not the easiest speech to make.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is doing very well in very difficult circumstances. Perhaps the House would show a little tolerance and allow him to make his case.
  Mr. Taylor: Naturally, Madam Deputy Speaker, you are allowing me to do so.
  The Bill will do little to tackle the morale problem, which is crucial to the supply crisis, not least because teachers are too sceptical about the Conservative party's commitment to teachers to believe that the new pay machinery will lead to better pay. They have reasons for expressing those doubts. First, to correct that problem, the Bill should have included a commitment to a general teaching council, which could do much to put right many of the problems within the profession, not least the recognition of the professionalism of teachers.
  Secondly, we cannot talk pay unless we talk quality. Morale would be given a boost if the quality and contribution of good teachers were recognised, and for that, among other things, we need a nationally funded framework of teacher appraisal. I hope that the Minister will explain the Secretary of State's position on appraisal. The previous Secretary of State had decided not to implement it on the grounds of cost. The Times suggested that the present Secretary of State is planning to introduce compulsory teacher appraisal, but without paying the cost. Will the Minister confirm that? It is despicable that that burden should be placed on local authorities.
  It is sad for continuity of policy when major decisions such as this appear to be subject not to the advice of those who know but to the whim of passing Secretaries of State
  788
  for Education and Science. If the Secretary of State moves on in a subsequent reshuffle, can we expect yet another change of approach on appraisal? The issue is becoming a mess. Low morale should come as no surprise.
  I have some points of specific concern. I have already dealt in some measure with the opt-out provisions and the lack of explanation about their effects. Those provisions are the Bill's major flaw. On the face of it, the Bill's purpose is to establish a national system of negotiation, yet the opt-out provisions appear to run entirely counter to that. If the Secretary of State was right when he said that he would like all schools ultimately to opt out of the national negotiations, it would appear that we are being offered a false prospectus and that this is not a pay negotiating procedure. It is an interim pay negotiating procedure while the Government wait for all the LEAs or GMSs to opt out.
  If the Government provide for LEAs to opt out, that does not invite great confidence in the new pay negotiations. As I said, there is no documentation. In any case, the IAC has only just introduced greater flexibility for local pay variations within a national framework. Surely that should be given a chance to work through, so that we can gain some idea of its impact before we take this much bigger step.
  Opting out appears to result in more problems between areas and schools. Deprived areas could suffer more from it. There will be greater regional variations, at least under the local government finance system as it now operates, although things would be different if there were more flexibility. It is peculiar that, on the one hand, the Government are trying to continue their reign of power over teachers' pay and conditions nationally but, on the other, they are allowing an under-the-door opt-out system to operate which could leave Ministers with the same problems over which they say they now need to impose control. Despite their protestations to the contrary, they will not have that control.
  The advisory committee could have a strong role to play, but not if that role is as restricted as Ministers intend. Two points stand out. First, if reference is made to negotiations, even if they were not completed, there should be a requirement to start from the stage reached in those negotiations, rather than from a blank sheet of paper. Secondly, we are told that the advisory committee's remit will be set entirely by the Secretary of State. Should not that committee be able to look at wider issues, such as the supply of teachers and their pay and conditions?
  The advisory committee could make general recommendations about education problems without necessarily having been directed by the Secretary of State. It is not impossible to imagine that the Secretary of State may not want to hear the kind of advice that is forthcoming from an independent advisory committee, any more than he has wanted to hear some of the IAC's advice. This year, the Secretary of State did not accept its recommendations in full, and implementation was phased in. The starting point for this machinery will therefore be substantially worse than it needs to be.
  That is the Liberal Democrats' position on the Bill. The Government will get our support, albeit with great reservations. We shall certainly not continue that support unless the matters that I have addressed are dealt with in Committee and on Report.
  Mr. Dick Douglas: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I waited respectfully until the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) finished his speech rather than interject on a Member as I did last week. Although we have had the result of the ballot for the Conservative party leadership, we may be in a state of suspended animation. My understanding is that we have a Prime Minister-in-waiting and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will become Prime Minister.
  I apologise for intervening. I know that this Bill applies solely to English and Welsh Members, but the impact of what has happened outside the Chamber is of enormous importance to the people of Scotland. More than 1 million warrants have been issued by local authorities, the majority by Labour authorities. We are in the position——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. I find it difficult to know what the point of order for the Chair is.
  Mr. Douglas: Let me briefly develop my point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker. Those warrants were issued by local authorities on the basis of a law, but there is no majority in the House to enforce that law. If the poll tax issue were put before the House, the legislation would not get a vote. People like me are being pursued——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I cannot allow the hon. Member to make a speech in the middle of a debate. If he has a point of order for the Chair, I shall deal with it.
  Mr. Douglas: The Prime Minister-in-waiting should come immediately to the House to explain the position and to state clearly that no one, particularly in Scotland, will be put in jeopardy. That law which is being applied by local authorities has no support anywhere in the House. If it is enforced, the law will be brought into disrepute.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: No doubt the House of Commons will deal with these matters in the coming days in the appropriate manner.
  6.36 pm
  Mr. John Marshall: I should like, as one of the Members for Barnet, on behalf of myself. my hon. Friends the Members for Chipping Barnet (_Mr. Chapman) and for Hendon, North (Mr. Gorst) and all the people of Barnet, to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) for all the work that she did for the London borough of Barnet and for the distinction that she brought to the borough over a long period. We in the borough are glad that my right hon. Friend made it clear this afternoon that she would stay in the House as a Back Bencher, working for the people of Barnet as she has done since 1959. I assure the House that there was great sadness throughout the borough last Thursday. As someone said to me at church on Sunday, it was as if a family funeral had taken place.
  As one who voted for my right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major), I should like to say how much I welcome the result of the ballot which, I understand, was declared in Room 14 a few minutes ago. My right hon. Friend has a breadth of experience in the Treasury, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department of Social Security, which will make him an excellent Prime Minister.
  I said at the beginning of my speech that I was speaking on behalf of the residents of the London borough of
  790
  Barnet. Of course, I am proud to represent a Barnet constituency. The House must remember that that borough has the best examination results of any local authority in England. Every day, 2,000 pupils leave the socialist paradise of Brent to be educated in Barnet because they recognise that standards in Barnet are far superior to those in the neighbouring local authorities.
  It was absolute nonsense for the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) to say that standards in education are a function of expenditure. We spend far less in Barnet than, for example, the unlamented Inner London education authority spent, but we get much better results. That is because we do not waste money on bureaucracy, or on race advisers or sex advisers; we put the emphasis on standards.
  I welcome the stress that the Government have laid in the pay discussions on the need for more flexibility in the salary system. For far too long, education was a victim of national pay scales, which ignored huge regional differences in living costs, and also ignored the fact that the existence of "shortage subjects" was not an argument for raising the pay of, for example, sociology teachers. We must recognise that those who can teach modern languages can also become interpreters or translators, while those who can teach computing can move to the world of industry to work as computer operators. I am not sure that there is quite such a long queue of people wanting to employ sociologists as there is of people seeking potential teachers of modern languages, physics, chemistry or computing.
  The most important aspect, however, is the huge regional variation in house prices. According to the Nationwide Anglia building society, the average semidetached house in the Greater London area sells for £106,421. In the north, the average price is £46,860. In Yorkshire and Humberside, it is £54,069; in glorious, leafy East Anglia it is £56,550; in the north-west, it is £55,155, and in the west midlands it is £56,421.
  Mr. Fatchett: What was the London price?
  Mr. Marshall: The London price is £106,421. The figures were provided in the Nationwide Anglia's latest survey.
  Teachers know that, if they move out of London, they can buy much better houses and enjoy a much better standard of living. It is not unknown for teachers occupying positions of responsibility in the London borough of Barnet to decide to sell up and move to the north. They are willing to accept positions that do not necessarily carry the same responsibility, and even to become supply teachers, because they know that the eventual result of the equation will be in their favour.
  There is no doubt that the current London weighting allowances are entirely inadequate. I am told by the Library that the monthly post-tax cost of a £30,000 repayment mortgage is £269·70 a month, while the monthly net cost for a London teacher who must take out a £60,000 mortgage is £675. That is a monthly difference of about £405, or £4,863 annually. The inner London weighting allowance is £1,500, with a potential discretionary addition of £750—perhaps £2,250 a year, or £1,700 after tax. The allowances simply do not take account of the huge difference between housing costs in the south-east and those elsewhere, or of the other high costs that are involved.

  791
  There is a further illogicality in the relationship between inner and outer London allowances. Outer London teachers receive allowances of only £984, which is not nearly enough to cover the huge extra housing costs that they incur. Then there is the complete anomaly of teachers in Barnet being paid less than those in Brent, Haringey, Merton and Ealing. How can that encourage recruitment in Barnet? Teachers know that they need only pop over the border to Brent to receive perhaps another £1,266 a year; alternatively, they can go to the people's republic of Haringey—although I can see why some may not wish to do so—and receive the same amount. It is a crazy system, and the sooner that local authorities are allowed to opt out and receive localised pay rates that take account of localised costs and the localised labour market, the better the position will be.
  Listening to the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), one sensed that the gramophone needle had stuck in a groove. The hon. Gentleman ought to be told that a speech need not be interminable to be immortal. He got it entirely wrong when he said that opting out would divide the teaching profession; let me say to him and to the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) that the present system does that. There is a north-south divide, which means that teachers in the north are, in real terms, enjoying much better living standards than those in the south. That can only aggravate the problem in the south, and cause significant localised shortages in the near term, unless the Bill is passed.
  Certain individuals have suggested that teachers' salaries should be paid centrally, by the Exchequer—[Interruption.] The notes are here; the speech will be delivered.
  I believe that that would be a retrograde step—and I wrote that before the holding of today's ballot. The central payment of teachers' salaries would mean more central control. We cannot operate a system whereby spending decisions are made locally and then financed centrally: that is a recipe for inefficiency and high spending. Central payment must mean central control.
  The hon. Member for Durham, North-West (Ms. Armstrong) spoke of the extent of bureaucracy in the DES. Let me warn the House that, if teachers' salaries are ever paid centrally, that bureaucracy will multiply by a factor of four, five or six. I do not want to see the DES telling the London borough of Barnet how many teachers it should have in each school, but that would be the inevitable result of such a system.
  Various comments have been made about the status of teachers. I pay tribute to their work, especially in local authority schools: I am sorry that the hon. Member for Hillsborough is not present to hear me say—as I am proud to—that both my children are being educated in such schools. I believe that our schools in Barnet are very good, and I am pleased to be able to send my sons to two of them. I have great admiration for teachers—and, indeed, a great deal of sympathy; anyone who has to look after my sons for eight hours a day is ever deserving of sympathy, and of a good salary.
  Status, however, is something that teachers themselves must play a part in achieving. We in Barnet remember all the one-day strikes in the mid-1980s. We remember that the teachers' unions decided to concentrate on the
  792
  borough because it was represented by the Prime Minister. What a terrible situation: young children were being used as pawns in a political game by a trade union. Those were the politics not of a profession, but of a bully. Such tactics are more akin to those of Arthur Scargill than to those of a profession seeking public recognition. If the teachers' unions want to be recognised as members of a profession they should behave as such, rather than behaving like bully boys.
  Mr. Ronnie Campbell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Marshall: Is the hon. Gentleman trying to make an intelligent comment? If so, I shall give way to him.
  Mr. Campbell: The Tory party, and the Tory Government, should let the teachers have the salary increase for which they have been asking for years. They should treat teachers like professionals, and give them the money that they asking for.
  Mr. Marshall: The hon. Gentleman's argument seems to be, "Give him the money, Barney," which is reminiscent of Wilfred Pickles. It is rather rum to hear it from a representative of a party that, for six years, allowed teachers' pay to go up by 6 per cent. in real terms compared with the 30 per cent. rise in real terms under this Government. This Government have been giving teachers more pay; the previous Labour Government did not. It is absurd for the hon. Gentleman to make such a hypocritical comment.
  In a debate on teachers' pay, one must examine the quality of teaching in our schools. Opposition Members have made some remarkable comments this afternoon about the schools that they want to see. The hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) who, unfortunately, has demonstrated his interest in education by being absent for most of the debate, said that a new city technology college was being set up in Nottingham, but condemned the Government for setting up that new school, which would benefit his constitutents. How many hon. Members would come to the House to complain that the Government were funding a new school in their constituency? If the hon. Gentleman really does not want the school, I beseech my hon. Friend the Minister to take the money away from Nottingham and to give it to Barnet, where we should say, "Thank you very much."
  Opposition Members do not believe in quality, or in diversity and choice in education. They want to abolish CTCs although they are nice, new schools, which are popular with teachers and with pupils, and which give an education that is relevant to the needs of today. What would befall those schools under a Labour Government? Closure.
  A Labour Government would get rid of the remaining grammar schools because it is a long-held belief in the Labour party that grammar schools are a bad thing. They would get rid of them despite the fact that the schools have excellent academic achievements, and that the local authorities and the parents want to keep them. If it ever regained power, the Labour party would also destroy the grant-maintained schools, which are doing an excellent job.
  I must tell the Labour party that, when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, who was then Secretary of State for Education and Science, visited Hendon school,

  793
  which was the first grant-maintained school in London, a member of the teaching staff approached him. He said, "Secretary of State, I must say to you that I am a member of the Labour party." I wondered what would happen next. The teacher then said, "I must also tell you, Secretary of State, that the best thing that has happened to this school is it becoming a grant-maintained school." I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister, who has recently visited that school, will confirm that it is a first-rate school. Three years ago, it was heavily undersubscribed; now, as a grant-maintained school, it is fully subscribed. The gauleiters of the Opposition say that such schools should not be allowed to continue.
  The Labour party boasts that it would abolish the assisted places scheme. What does the assisted places scheme do? It allows bright children whose parents have a low income to go to independent schools. The Labour party would attack bright children from low-income families, and that is how it would appeal to social groups C2, D and E. The Labour party would tell such families that their children could not go to public schools under the assisted places scheme.
  The Labour party wants only to get rid of the schools that are popular and successful, and that have high standards, in the names of mediocrity and of socialism. Labour Members want to become the Henry Fords of education and to be able to say, "You can go to any school provided it is the local area comprehensive school." I believe in parental choice, and in quality and standards in education. The Government and the Bill are the only means by which to ensure that that choice and those standards are maintained.
  6.53 pm
  Mr. Gerry Steinberg: I will try to keep to the subject of the debate—unlike the previous speaker, the hon. Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall), who has spoken about anything but the Bill.
  In this Chamber two weeks ago, I welcomed the Government's proposal for a Bill to give back negotiating rights to teachers. However, I also told the House that I suspected that there would be a sting in the tail, and I think that my hunch was about right. I had hoped that the Bill would finally establish acceptable and permanent negotiating arrangements for teachers' pay, duties and conditions of service. Yet again, the Government have failed to make any significant moves towards the introduction of a system that is satisfactory both to the teachers and to their employers, and which could replace the supposedly temporary system established by the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987.
  There is now an acute shortage of teachers. Despite what the Secretary of State and Conservative Members say, it is a direct result, first, of the erosion of pay caused by the absence of free, national-level collective bargaining since 1987; secondly, of the vastly increased burden of unrewarded work and responsibility, which are the consequences of changes to the teaching service structure; and, thirdly, of low morale among teachers, which is the consequence of the other two factors.
  I went for a cup of tea 20 minutes ago, having been here since 2.30 pm, and I picked up the Evening Standard. Lo and behold, the first article in the Evening Standard that I read was headlined, "`1600 teachers leave London'". The article continued:
  "London's teacher shortage crisis is getting worse.
  794
  A new survey claims nearly 1600 staff have left schools in London in the past two months, and the problem is said to be hitting the education of tens of thousands of pupils.
  And according to the Thames TV News report, some schools have not had a full-time teacher for up to nine months.
  The Department of Education declined to comment, but this report confirms the survey published by the Evening Standard on 5 November disclosing that Britain's schools lack 10,105 staff, not the 1400 admitted by the Government.
  Fed-up teachers in the survey blame poor pay and low status for the exodus, despite the Government's multi-million pound recruitment campaign."
  That reiterates what the Labour party has been saying for the past two, three or four years.
  The proposals for new negotiating machinery for teachers' pay and conditions of service yet again do not conform to the requirements of international conventions, and the breach has now been compounded. This is the second time the International Labour Organisation has found the Government to be in breach of international law in their handling of teachers' negotiating rights. Since 1987, the Government have imposed amended conditions of service on teachers, they have put cash limits on salary increases and they have extended the operation of the 1987 Act beyond its expected expiry date.
  Teachers' pay has been deliberately depressed in recent years by the use of cash limits. Restricting the 1991 increase to an average for white-collar employees will not even restore teachers to their position of four years ago, let alone produce proper levels of pay for the profession. Let no one say anything other than that pay is crucial to recruitment and to the retention of teachers, which is the most important factor that we are discussing today. I repeat what I said to the Secretary of State some two hours ago. Evidence shows that teachers are now worse off compared both with the rate of inflation and with their non-manual counterparts than they were when the interim advisory committee was established.
  In the new proposals, there are three breaches of conformity, as set out by the ILO. The proposal for free negotiation of terms and conditions between employers and teachers under an independent chairman has a condition attached to it. The Secretary of State has the power to reject any negotiated settlement with which he disagrees, and to impose an alternative. He has an absolute power of discretion even though all negotiating parties may agree with the recommendations.
  The Bill makes nonsense of the concept of true negotiation by retaining almost total power and responsibility with the Secretary of State and by allowing the negotiating body and even the so-called advisory committee to be overruled. At a time of severe teacher shortage, whatever the Secretary of State may say, when recruitment and retention of teachers is crucial, and when morale in the profession is at an all-time low, the Bill will undermine education even more. The negotiators should be left free to finalise and implement their own agreements.
  Secondly, disagreements which are not resolved before the prescribed deadline may be referred by the Government to a statutory independent advisory committee. The establishment of a permanent body similar to the existing interim advisory committee is the second breach of conformity. The proposed permanent advisory committee, like the existing body, will be obliged to consult the relevant parties and will be empowered to make recommendations to the Secretary of State, who will

  795
  retain the right to accept, modify or reject those recommendations as he sees fit. As far as I can see, that is no improvement on the present system.
  Although it is true that reference to the new committee must be preceded by an attempt to resolve differences by collective bargaining, that in itself does not convert the committee phase into a process of collective bargaining. Both the negotiations and the committee phase are, as the ILO said:
  "fatally flawed because in both instances the parties lack the freedom to strike their own bargain on their own terms."
  It must certainly be possible to impose restrictions on the bargaining process when lengthy deadlocks ensue, but that is not to say that there should be a mechanism to infringe the autonomy of the bargaining process.
  While I welcome efforts to restore direct employer-employee bargaining on pay, duties and conditions, the Government have failed to meet the requirement to put collective bargaining arrangements in place. The proposals for time-limited negotiations will serve their purpose only if the limits are not so short as to curtail productive negotiation, since that would allow the Secretary of State to exercise his overriding powers.
  The third breach is represented by the provisions enabling education authorities and grant-maintained schools to opt out of national negotiations without establishing local negotiating machinery. Local education authorities or the governing bodies of publicly funded schools would be permitted to apply to the Secretary of State for permission to opt out of the national framework and to determine the pay and conditions of their teachers at a local level and at local rates. Some authorities could then conceivably pay more than others under different conditions of employment. All of this is to be done at a time of grave teacher shortages, and a glorious game of leapfrog would become the order of the day.
  Teachers would be attracted to the places where pay and conditions were the best, leaving gaps that could not be filled because there would be no one left to fill them. Authorities whose teachers were attracted away could only react by increasing pay and improving conditions, thus contributing to the spiral.
  Before anyone imagines that the opted-out authorities would offer all the prizes, it should be remembered that there is one back in the leapfrog game that will bring everyone down. Local authorities are required by the Government to control their spending. Where are they to raise the cash to make higher settlements than the nationally agreed figure? They will not be able to, so they will not—or, if they do, capping will follow.
  The purpose of this Bill must be to keep teachers' pay low and thus continue to contribute to decline in the profession. The freedom to arrive at local settlements can only mean the freedom to arrive at low settlements, and that is not what education needs.
  After opting out, all future pay and conditions settlements would be free from any control and subject only to certain restrictions on changes in pay within the first year and to the general obligation on local education authorities to consult governing bodies and teachers before implementing proposals for changes in local pay and conditions. So the Government are proposing not only that employing authorities should opt out of national collective bargaining but that they should opt out of any
  796
  form of collective bargaining. This free-for-all outside a common framework may lead to overbidding, instability among teaching staff and an avoidable pay inflation, while not profiting the education service in general. That is hardly in line with the Government's obligation to promote voluntary negotiations between employers and employees.
  Clause 9 allows grant-maintained schools to do their own thing. That may mean higher settlements by schools which attract additional funds. If so, the best teachers in an area could be enticed into the rich opted-out school, leaving others with the problems of replacing them. That is a device to fool people into thinking that grant-maintained means better when it does not, but we are not fooled—parents will not be fooled, and nor will teachers. The rich will be much richer while the rest will suffer.
  The intake to teacher training courses is at an all-time low—[Interruption.]—regardless of the figures that the Department may pass in little notes to the Minister. Resignations from the profession continue in numbers that have a harmful effect on education, and the six teacher associations' survey recently revealed that the number of vacancies was at least double the Government's estimate—and it is even worse this year.
  Despite the continuing trend of graduates away from teacher training, the Government persist in doing no more than tinkering at the edges. Other employers try to attract graduates with sensible starting salaries and career development plans. With such opportunities, it is no wonder that graduates are not coming into teaching.
  In a profession in which low morale is widespread, the effects of measures perceived as divisive and unfair cannot be underestimated. A free-market auction of teachers held by competing authorities and governing bodies is potentially disastrous. The Government are acting contrary to the conventions that they have agreed. They must not continue to breach conventions that they have ratified and which were designed to promote and encourage voluntary negotiations to bring about mutually accepted agreement.
  Without a truly independent negotiating machinery, the teaching profession will continue to degenerate. Without a large increase in salary to make teaching attractive, that degeneration will become indelible. For the sake of all our children we must now deal with the main issues—recruitment and retention of teachers. That would enhance educational standards and recognise that the nation's future is in our schools. We need a commitment to a true negotiating system, in which teachers and their employers can arrive at what is best for education.
  7.7 pm
  Mr. Steve Norris: I extend a warm welcome to the Bill, which fulfils the long-standing obligation to replace the Burnham machinery, which was inadequate for the negotiation of teachers' pay. The Government have fulfilled that obligation in a creative way, which will in due course commend itself to the whole House and to the teaching profession. Behind the Bill lies the desire to enhance the status of teachers in the community—a desire that will be shared on both sides of the House. This is the right way to proceed.
  Contrary to the opinion expressed by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw)—I am sorry that he is not in his place now—the Education Reform Act 1988, which was so

  797
  derided during its passage by all sorts of vested interests and by the Opposition, has become, only two years into its operation, accepted on all sides as having advanced education.
  I accept that there are the occasional dinosaurs on the Opposition Benches on whom any development will take a few decades to make an impact. Increasingly, those left of centre in politics in this country are beginning to realise that concepts such as attainment testing, the national curriculum and even grant-maintained schools are the germs of progress in education. I accept that we cannot starve an education service and that it would be rank hypocrisy to hide behind the argument that all was structure and resources were nothing. Neither side of the House has fallen for that argument.
  Before the Education Reform Act 1988, a commitment to quality, standards and diversity was missing. Improvements in quality arose as a result of the enhancement of choice that the Education Reform Act made available
  Mr. Fatchett: When the Education Reform Bill was published, the Conservative party had a lead over the Labour party on education issues in virtually all the opinion polls. Why, two years after the enactment of the Bill, does the Labour party have a 30 per cent. lead in all opinion polls on education issues? What is the reason for that difference?
  Mr. Norris: Having been told by various pollsters that my party's deficit in the polls has been wiped out by the intervention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), who in a week has achieved that as well as the reform of the community charge, I am rather sceptical of reaching any conclusions from polls.
  However, when the Education Reform Bill was before the House, many people in education derided the proposals from a sectional standpoint which I did not share. Since then, many of those people, perhaps rather more quietly—we can understand why—have come to recognise how much good the Education Reform Bill contained.
  I want to refer to a point raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) and for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall). They referred to clauses 8 and 9, which throw a lifeline to areas like mine. Such a lifeline has been sorely needed and I have written to my hon. Friend the Minister and many of his predecessors about it.
  There is no conflict between the two interventions that I made earlier. I n my constituency, the history of vacancies was made much of by Labour party representatives. They sought to fan all sorts of fears among parents, which were subsequently not realised in 1989 or this year. That was a terrible shame for parents, who naturally become disturbed when they are told, apparently by authoritative sources, that there is a prospect that their children will not be able to go to school or will be sent home from school. I received goodness knows how many letters as a result of that scare.
  Fortunately. those parents were worried for nothing and they did not have to suffer that experience. That was an incredibly cynical exploitation of the perfectly valid concerns of parents. They were put under pressure in order to make a cheap political point, which frankly did not carry much weight.
  798
  In response to the interesting patois intervention by the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg), it is true that we do not get enough candidates of quality on our shortlists. We often get only one candidate, and I would be the first to agree with the hon. Gentleman that that is unsatisfactory. Equally, although we have only a handful of unfilled posts, too many have not been filled by permanent staff, and I agree that that is a less than satisfactory way for children to be taught. Clearly we must look at the way in which teachers are attracted to my part of the world.
  I have always thought that the logic of differential pay and geographical variations in pay is absolutely irrefutable. My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford referred to what he called a centrist newspaper entitled The Daily Telegraph. I recall an interesting article by Bernard Levin in what must be a left-wing rag called The Times. That article was about a dispute involving Post Office workers, in which local pay bargaining was the central issue.
  If I recall correctly, Mr. Allan Tuffin raised that issue after it has been suggested that particular payments were being made to postmen who lived in London. He was concerned that those payments should be made available throughout the country. I recall Bernard Levin writing, in what seemed to be a perfectly logical way, that, although he felt that a trade union leader had a perfectly natural obligation to try to secure the best deal for his members—and if that meant that he could secure money for people living in less expensive parts of the country, why should he not do that?—if a postman in Grimsby was paid the same as a postman in Chelsea, either one was being overpaid, or more likely the other was being underpaid.
  In what was always called "the real world"—I hate to use that expression—there cannot be the slightest doubt that living costs differ substantially around the country. It is asinine not to recognise that that will have a huge influence on the attractiveness of public sector posts.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South referred to housing costs. In my constituency, one cannot buy a one-bedroom flat for under £55,000. I was once told that mine is the second most expensive constituency in the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns), who kindly assisted me in 1988 during my fraught experience of a by-election which is fast becoming a legend in this Parliament because we won it, will recall that it is considered normal that houses in my constituency cost £100,000 a bedroom once we move up the scale to ordinary three and four-bedroom houses.
  Unlike many other professions, there is no particular reason why a teacher should wish to come to work in my high-cost area instead of working elsewhere. There is often a distinct reason why people gravitate to London—because that is where their head office is located, and they want promotion and larger salaries. They obviously accept that they will have to pay more for housing. One of the particular features of teaching is that a teacher can get to the top of his or her tree as easily in Northamptonshire, rural Essex or Lancashire as in central London or in the expensive part of Essex that I represent. It is doubly important that we counter a huge natural disincentive to people to come to teach in high-cost areas.
  As part of the bedrock of this argument, I want to make an important point. It does not matter what salary we start with or whatever the national salary is—be it adequate or inadequate—there will still be an incentive for people to

  799
  move to areas where their money buys them a great deal more. We find that problem not only in teaching, but in other public sector appointments in my constituency, and I look forward to clauses 8 and 9 addressing it.
  As I endeavoured to say in an intervention during the speech by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, I hope that my local education authority will not hesitate to use the provisions of clause 8. I accept that that may mean that community charge payers have to make a greater contribution to teachers' salaries. I believe that my constituents would generally accept that that was the quid pro quo of being fortunate enough to live in one of the most expensive and wealthy districts in the country. I think that they would accept that they can afford to pay teachers enough to attract the quality of teachers that my constituents—and other hon. Members' constituents—deserve.
  Mr. Steinberg: I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman's argument. Is he trying to say that he believes that, by giving local education authorities the right to negotiate, the difference in pay that teachers will receive will be the same as the cost involved in somebody moving from my district of the country, Durham, to the hon. Gentleman's, Epping Forest? Is he saying that the amount of extra salary they receive will compensate for the move? Does he not feel that it would be better for local authorities to be given the right or the power to finalise a system taking into account housing costs, and so give an incentive? Does the hon. Gentleman believe that local authorities will pay teachers enough to compensate for the huge difference in housing costs?
  Mr. Norris: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that all the scales of difference available to us understate the actual difference in housing costs—for example, between his district and mine. I do not disguise the fact that local education authorities in regions such as mine are unlikely to be able to go the whole way to compensate for differences in housing costs. That was a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall).
  Inner London weighting is set at £1,500, which, if one already had a mortgage of £30,000 and so was not eligible for more tax relief would, after tax, amount to an ability to borrow another £10,000 to put towards a more expensive house. If interest rates were at 0·5 per cent., that weighting might give £20,000 but would come nowhere near the £100,000 or so necessary to compensate for moving from the constituency of the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg) to mine.
  I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his concern on behalf of the electors of Epping Forest, which I shall convey to them. I invite the hon. Gentleman to come with me and see what a delightful place it is—perhaps he might contemplate the economics of such a move.
  London allowances are of real concern, not just to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South to whom I am grateful for raising the subject and so allowing my hon. Friend the Minister to see that it is not just a single constituency issue. The fringe allowance to which my constituency teachers are entitled will, from 1 July 1989, be the magnificent sum of £384. The irony is that it is a sum paid regardless of grade; it is almost insignificant in terms
  800
  of its purchasing power in the context of regional costs. It is particularly galling when compared with an outer London weighting of £984—a full £600 more—and an inner London weighting of £1,500.
  The reality is that teachers who live in my constituency can often travel shorter journeys to work when they happen to work in one of the London boroughs and, if that borough adds the London supplement of £750, earn more than £1,000 a year more than in my district. I accept that there will always be boundaries and that, close to metropolitan districts, those boundaries occasionally look a bit capricious. I understand that; such anomalies will always exist. I am sure that all hon. Members with experience of metropolitan constituencies know that.
  I am worried that, when calculating the weighting allowance, there is an assumption that cost in a major city such as London is based on the bull's eye principle that costs are highest in the centre and become lower as one goes further out. That may be true between Belgravia and the wilds of the countryside, but it is not true for London, throughout which there are pockets of high and low cost.
  When my hon. Friend the Minister considers weighting, I urge him to use a more sophisticated formula than that currently used, so that it allows for a much more general recognition of high cost where that is clearly appropriate, as it obviously is in my constituency. If we received the inner London weighting of £1,500, rather than our fringe allowances of £834, the difference would not go a quarter of the way towards compensating for the differential housing costs to which I referred.
  In giving the warmest approval to the measure, I urge my right hon. and learned Friend to look with sympathy at allowances, particularly London allowances. I urge him not to impede the progress of grant-maintained schools or local authorities towards taking control of their local pay arrangements. I believe that clauses 8 and 9 throw my constituents a lifeline which is of considerable importance for the education of children in my constituency.
  7.26 pm
  Mr. Dennis Turner: I commend to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris) the Select Committee's report on teacher shortages. It took us more than 12 months to produce the document, within which he will find a list of recommendations dealing with London and outer London allowances, housing costs, additional responsibility allowances and a range of proposals.
  The Government do not seem to have taken sufficient account of that report. That certainly appeared to be the case when the Secretary of State advanced the Government's argument earlier and spoke of teacher recruitment, retention and the other major problems identified in the report, on which the ink is still not dry. For the Government to say that there has been so much progress during such a short period leaves a little doubt in my mind as to whether they are using an element of exaggeration and deceit about the present state of education.
  Mr. Rupert Allason: There may well be an element of exaggeration, but if the hon. Gentleman looks at the statistics for Devon he will see that this January there were 166 vacancies for teachers there, and in September the number had been reduced to just 16.
  Mr. Turner: I am pleased to hear that information, although the same is not true across the whole country. However, like the hon. Gentleman, I am pleassed if there is an improvement in recruitment in Devon and join him in rejoicing in the fact that progress is being made.
  I am saddened by this debate and by the Bill. In the Select Committee we made proposals which we thought that the Secretary of State might reject. Some Government supporters in the Select Committee expended energy on recommendations that they felt should be followed. When we learned that the former Secretary of State for Education and Science was to recommend a new pay and conditions organisation, we made clear recommendations in our Select Committee report.
  I was full of hope that the Bill would contain a proper negotiating procedure for teachers. Although the interim advisory committee made sound recommendations on many matters, it has been criticised since 1987 because those recommendations were always curtailed by the Government's cash limits and could not adequately and properly respond to the teachers.
  There are four basic objections to the proposed negotiating machinery. First, the proposal allows local education authorities and grant-maintained schools to opt out of national pay negotiations. In effect, they can pay teachers local rates. That is unacceptable for a national education service at any time, but at this time of crisis in the supply of teachers it is completely impracticable.
  Secondly, the Secretary of State's reserve powers to override or refer back decisions of the negotiating committee are not compatible with free collective bargaining. We have heard that the International Labour Organisation and a committee of the United Nations have heavily criticised the Government for that aspect of the legislation. I do not want to go over that ground again. The machinery in the Bill is unsatisfactory for resolving disputes in the negotiating committee. It contains no provision for arbitration, and that is an important issue in all free negotiations.
  The Government propose to move on from the interim advisory committee, and they should at least have carried the teachers' organisations with them. It is sad that the Government have failed miserably to satisfy the very people to whom they wanted to respond positively. The Secretary of State said that the proposals had the support of the teachers' organisations. We know that the National Union of Teachers is totally opposed to the Government's proposal for national negotiations.
  Hon. Members have no doubt received from the Assistant Masters and Mistresses Association a document which states:
  "New procedures and powers in the Bill for the local determination of teachers' pay and conditions of employment are at the least ill-judged and premature, and the reserve powers accruing to the Secretary of State are so excessive as to jeopardise the success of negotiating machinery established under the Bill."
  The association recommends that hon. Members oppose the Bill and ask the Government to go back to the drawing board and bring in a Bill allowing teachers free negotiations. That would take our education service forward into the 1990s and give us tranquillity and progress.
  The Government should encourage everyone in education to work together to meet the needs of our communities. Even at this late stage, I ask the Minister not to run into great opposition with all the teachers'
  802
  organisations even before the Bill becomes an Act. He should have another look at it and try to get legislation that everyone can work in the interests of our children and our future.
  7.34 pm
  Mr. Ken Hargreaves: I welcome the opportunity to make a brief speech. Last December, when the motion on teachers' pay and conditions was debated, I expressed my disappointment and displeasure at the fact that it had not been possible in the three years allowed to set up a new negotiating body for teachers' pay and conditions. That regrettable delay in setting up such machinery has been to the detriment of teachers.
  This morning, I attended the presentation of the national schools curriculum awards at which the chairman, Sir Geoffrey Chandler, told a large audience that teaching was the most important occupation, a fact which he said we had succeeded in disguising from ourselves for some time. I totally agree. The future of our country depends upon the quality of the education and training received by our young people, and the best quality will be provided only if teachers themselves are of the highest quality. That was acknowledged in the Green Paper, where it was recognised that the new teachers' pay determination machinery should be designed to provide settlements that pay due regard to the need to recruit, retain and motivate sufficient teachers of the right quality.
  I visited almost every school in my constituency during the summer recess and I am convinced that, generally speaking, Hyndburn has high-quality teachers. My concern is that we may not retain them unless we give greater priority to education and to teachers. We should all beware of politicians who promise to spend more on everything—on the health service, on roads and on overseas aid. That is impossible, but politicians can re-order priorities, and now is the time to do so. Education and training must be at the top of our list.
  Change is never easy, but teachers have coped extremely well with Government reforms in education. The reforms will prove beneficial, providing teachers do not get bogged down with administration. Those changes coincided with changes in society, which have led to less respect for people in authority. A reduction in teachers' standing in the community and their inability to negotiate their own pay settlements have caused many experienced and dedicated teachers to leave the profession.
  At this morning's ceremony, I was with the head teacher, staff and pupils of Rhyddings high school, Oswaldtwistle, which won an award. Rhyddings is a fine school, but in the recent past it has lost the head of the science faculty—a teacher with 30 years' experience—a teacher who spent 15 years in the technology department, and a teacher with a similar length of service in home economics. Those are just three examples of people who have left the profession. Many of my local schools tell the same story.
  The Government can do little about the changes in society, but by supporting teachers they can show that they understand, and the best possible sign of that understanding would be a substantial salary increase. this year's increases for teachers of 6·4 to 11·8 per cent., with an average of 8·3 per cent., can hardly be described as over-generous or as designed to retain let alone motivate them.

  803
  The Secretary of State said that teachers' pay had risen by 30 per cent. in real terms since 1979. But that takes no account of how other professions, which have not faced the changes and pressures faced by teachers in recent years, have fared. To allow teachers to develop personally, we must ensure that they are financially secure. That does not seem to be the case at present. If that is true for the north of England, the situation must be worse in the south where living costs are higher.
  The Education Reform Act 1988 has increased the responsibilities not only of senior management but of the teachers responsible for line management. Unless we have people of high calibre at all levels, the national curriculum will not be delivered to the standards that most teachers would wish. While it is clearly essential to have an attractive commencing salary, if we are to retain the best of our teachers, we must address the problem of progression and try to prevent excellent teachers from coming out of the classroom to become part of the organisation and administration simply on financial grounds when they would prefer to stay in the classroom.
  I welcome the introduction of incentive allowances to reward teachers for good classroom work or for increased responsibility. I am pleased that a further 89,000 allowances were awarded by September this year, bringing the total to 189,000 or 50 per cent. of all secondary school teachers and 40 per cent. of all primary school teachers. That is a welcome development.
  I also welcome the way in which the previous Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. MacGregor), constantly recognised publicly the excellent work that is done by the majority of teachers. I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend the present Secretary of State and his Ministers will continue the practice of praising teachers in public. Such an attitude, coupled with a substantial pay increase, would do much to restore the low morale of teachers.
  Teaching is a calling or a vocation but that is not a reason why teachers should not be adequately rewarded. In April, the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) said:
  "Teachers will still, under a Labour Government, be less well-paid than they wish to be paid."
  Fortunately for teachers, there will not be a Labour Government. The Government have clearly done more for teachers than the previous Labour Government. If we are to retain the experienced teachers to whom I referred, we have to do even better. I hope that the Bill will be a vehicle by which we can do that.
  7.41 pm
  Mr. Roy Beggs: The determination of school teachers' salaries and conditions in England and Wales and the method by which those salaries are negotiated may have some influence on the determination of salaries for teachers in Northern Ireland. The conditions and the awards that are made here have in the past tended to be rubber-stamped some weeks later in Northern Ireland—hence my interest in this legislation.
  Since the abolition of the negotiating machinery for teachers' salaries in England and Wales, their salaries have been determined by the interim advisory committee within certain cash limits imposed by the Government. For the past three years, that has resulted in salary increases lower
  804
  than the rate of inflation, which means that teachers' pay has been cut year after year while more demands have been made on classroom teachers and principals alike. Teachers' living standards will be further depressed for the fourth successive year due to the cash limit imposed on the interim advisory committee of 8·9 per cent. for the April 1991 salary award.
  Such a policy on teachers' pay and conditions is insulting to the professionals who give honourable service and show dedication and concern for our children. We have repeatedly heard about the crisis in teacher supply as it affects many areas in England and Wales. Although we in Northern Ireland have no apparent shortage of teachers, the evidence of low morale in the profession, the lack of job satisfaction and the discontent with pay and conditions are there for those who wish to recognise the signs.
  Since 1980, 10 per cent. of the total teaching force—between 1,800 and 1,900 teachers out of a total of 18,500—have retired prematurely. The number of experienced teachers over 50 years of age who are seeking premature retirement is dangerously high and could result in shortages which could damage the education of our children in the future unless it is controlled.
  Instead of confrontations with teacher unions, the Secretary of State should ensure that there is meaningful consultation with teachers' representatives. The Government should be prepared to listen to the views of the professionals in education who have first-hand experience and useful advice to proffer. Unfortunately, that attitude does not appear to have been adopted in the past.
  Teachers in Northern Ireland are paid salaries similar to those of their colleagues in England and Wales. The Bill will therefore have direct consequences on the salaries and conditions of Northern Ireland teachers. There is concern that the proposed legislation is an attempt to divide and conquer, to set school against school and teacher against teacher, and that it will result only in a further lowering of morale in an already demoralised profession.
  We are very proud of the variety, choice and type of school to which parents may choose to send their children in Northern Ireland and we have no intention of diminishing the options that are available to parents. We are also very proud of our teachers, of their dedication and the service that they give. We believe passionately that they should have pay and conditions which truly reflect their worth to society.
  The economic future of the whole of the United Kingdom depends on halting the drift from teaching and ensuring that there are sufficient well-qualified teachers who can ensure that all our children can be educated according to their age, ability and aptitude, with proper provision being made for those with special educational needs. Teacher shortages will disappear when pay and conditions clearly demonstrate that the profession is respected, is accorded its proper status and is properly remunerated.
  Because of the implications of the legislation, I welcome the correspondence that I have had from the general secretary of the Ulster Teachers Union. I do not wish to present the whole communication to the House now because I hope that there will be another opportunity to present the salient matters raised in it, but that correspondence makes it patently obvious that there is no

  805
  widespread agreement and that there has not been sufficient recognition of the representations made in the past by the teachers' unions.
  I emphasise the concern expressed in the representation made to me—a concern which I share—that the Bill does not appear to provide for arbitration. That is a serious omission and inconsistent with the principles of free collective bargaining. As others have said, the Government interference in free collective bargaining is contrary to the convention of the International Labour Organisation to which the United Kingdom is a signatory.
  While supporting a return to free collective bargaining, the general secretary of that union stated that he did not belive that clause 2 and schedule 2 provided the independence necessary in such negotiations. We are concerned that, under clause 8, which provides the opportunity to opt out, our teachers in Northern Ireland, where salaries and wages are already low, would be further disadvantaged. Workers in Northern Ireland receive the lowest average salaries and wages of any region of the United Kingdom. That is why we see the provisions as an attempt by Government to introduce regional rates of pay, which totally deviate from the concept of equal pay for equal work. I hope that there will be further consideration before the Bill reaches the statute book and that genuine account will be taken of the serious opinions of those whom the Government consult.
  7.50 pm
  Mr. David Amess: I am delighted to be called to speak on this historic day in the life of this Parliament —a day when the Conservative party can unite behind our new Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major). Had I been called earlier, I should have wished to pay tribute also to my right hon. Friend the outgoing Prime Minister.
  I want to praise the Bill. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister, in his reply to the debate, will identify how the new negotiating machinery is preferable to the old Burnham machinery. I want to concentrate most of my remarks on grant-maintained schools. I am delighted to inform the House that Chalvedon school in my constituency is to be the first grant-maintained school in Essex. Essex is the largest education authority in the country. I pay tribute to the governors, the headmaster, the parents and the enthusiastic children who have brought this historic moment to Basildon.
  Chalvedon school is already benefiting from grant-maintained status. Last night it was announced that, as a result of central funding, huge additional resources will be given to the new school. Morale has improved in only a short time, and I am sure that that will set the trend for the rest of Essex. I am especially pleased that the rules have been changed and that other schools can now apply for grant-maintained status. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will make it clear that grant-maintained status has nothing to do with opting out of the state system—on the contrary, all that it signals is a different method of funding and increased opportunities for schools that achieve that status.
  I was a teacher in the early 1970s. I taught at St. John the Baptist junior mixed school, which was run by the Inner London education authority. It was a fine school. I welcome the opportunity tonight to pay tribute to all teachers, who work so hard on behalf of our children.
  806
  They do a magnificent job. Most people find it difficult looking after their own children, whether two or three, let alone looking after a class of 25 or 26——
  Mr. Andrew Smith: Thirty-two.
  Mr. Amess: I was educated in the east end of London in the London borough of Newham. We had 52 in a class. My teacher was dedicated to the extent that, at the age of five, she told my mother that I was dyslexic. I had great difficult enunciating—I could not pronounce the sounds "st" or "fr"—and for two years I went to a speech therapist. I was identified as a child with special learning difficulties, within a class of 52. Because of the Government's policies, the pupil-teacher ratio has now fallen to 19. That is excellent news.
  Ms. Armstrong: I am delighted to hear that the hon. Gentleman had access to a speech therapist at the age of five. Is he aware that that is exactly the sort of provision that we want for every child, and at an early stage? There is enormous difficulty for children with special needs gaining access to specialists. This afternoon, Conservative Members have attacked the authorities that are retaining and supporting speech therapists and other non-teaching staff to meet special needs through central pools. Will the hon. Gentleman join me in saying that local authorities should be providing those opportunities for children with special needs?
  Mr. Amess: The hon. Member for Doncaster will note that I am an enthusiast about all that speech therapists can do——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not drag me into the debate—I am the hon. Member for Doncaster.
  Mr. Amess: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker; I meant the hon. Member for Durham, North-West (Ms. Armstrong). I am sure that she will accept that there is a substantial cost to her proposals.
  The Government should be congratulated on the previous education Bill and on the testing that is being introduced, which will make it much easier to identify, at an early age, the children with special needs. For 18 months, I was responsible for helping children with special learning difficulties, so I know how tough it is. I recognise that there is a substantial cost to the provision of additional teaching services. I believe that the Bill will give teachers great pleasure when they are talking about their pay and conditions. However, on this historic occasion it would be wrong not to take into account the economic position.
  Of course we need more money for education, for the health service, for highways and works, and so on—but that is the whole point about the failings of Labour party policy. It never identifies where the money will come from. The Government's policy of trying to reduce inflation and interest rates will eventually result in far greater resources being available for education—in particular, for speech therapists—so that children with learning difficulties can be identified at an early age.
  I welcome the opportunity to pay tribute to all my schools in Basildon. I visit every one of them during the year. We have 38 educational establishments—infant schools, junior schools, seven secondary schools and a college of further education. They are absolutely

  807
  magnificent. I am delighted to tell hon. Members that during the eight years that I have been the Member of Parliament, education standards in Basildon have improved. That would not have been possible without the determination of the teaching staff. That is why I say again that the Bill will considerably improve morale within the teaching profession, and I hope that the House will give it a Second Reading.
  Although I was educated in a class of 52, there was no doubt about the dedication and the commitment of the teachers. Who else would have worked in Victorian buildings, with children sitting at old-fashioned desks in cold conditions? Who else would have been as dedicated as those teachers, who were much more poorly paid than the teachers of today?
  I am delighted to say that because of Government initiatives, education in Basildon has improved considerably. More of our young people now go on to take full advantage of the opportunities of higher education. Essex county council recently decided to reorganise education in Basildon and, in future, our seven secondary schools will not have sixth forms; instead, their young people will be sent to the college of further education. I was not entirely enthusiastic when Essex county council made that announcement, but having visited the college to see at first hand the magnificent conditions and facilities that will be available there to young people, I have no doubt that they will receive a very good education when they attend our sixth form college.
  I pay tribute also to our education team, who have enthusiastically taken up the policy that we presented to the public in our 1987 election manifesto. The difference between our party and Labour is that we do not look for short-term popularity but set out our policies before the general public and ask them to be judged accordingly.
  In 1987, Conservative party policies—particularly
  those on education—received massive public endorse-ment, and we were returned with a majority of more than 100 seats. Following tonight's historic events, and given the Leader of the Opposition's statement that he will fight the next general election with education as a first priority, we welcome the battle that is to come.
  We welcome the decision that our party has taken tonight. One can see from the faces of my right hon. and hon. Friends that they are very happy, and one can see from the faces of Labour Members that they are absolutely distraught and full of despair. They are very worried, because they know in their heart of hearts that in choosing a successor to my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), we have made ours the best party to win the next general election. I give the Bill my full support.
  8.1 pm
  Mr. Ronnie Campbell: Trying to follow the hon. Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess) is very difficult. God help our teachers, pupils and schools if the Conservatives secure a 100-seat majority in the next Parliament. I am sure that our schools would literally start falling to the ground.
  I welcome the news that teachers are to be given back union negotiating rights that perhaps should never have been taken from them in the first place.
  808
  Two weeks ago, I visited the schools in my constituency. My first call was the high school. I was impressed by what I saw there of aspects of local and county council education. The school was well maintained and the teachers had a fairly high morale. That was good to see after a decade of low morale in schools in the north-east. However, the head teacher said that he would like to meet our shadow Education Secretary to help put certain things right, because obviously the teachers there were wishing and hoping for a return of a Labour Government. They have clearly marked their cards for the choice of the next Government.
  I next visited a first school. It should be remembered that, although pay is important, so are working conditions —as I know from having worked as a miner for part of my life. My visit to the first school was an entirely different story, for the morale there was very low. The school was fairly new, but the first sight that greeted me was a wooden hut that had stood there for 15 years, which was rotten and falling to bits. It served as a classroom for 30 kids aged six and seven. Needless to say, the teacher experienced considerable difficulty trying to educate those children—not least because the hut was heated by a ducted air system, which made such a racket that she could not be heard and it had to be turned off, so the teacher was left half-frozen. Such conditions should not be tolerated.
  Next to that was another wooden hut that was too small for the number of children in the class, so some of the brighter kids had to be put in yet a third wooden hut. That school is no more than 15 or 20 years old, yet conditions there are deplorable.
  While the children assembled in the hall to sing, the teachers came to meet me and the vice-chairman of the education authority. I can assure the Government that they have no support from those teachers for the Bill or for the Education Act 1988, of which they are proud.
  I notice that the Secretary of State has not yet read the chart that I handed him during Question Time. It was given to me by teachers as an example of the work that they are required to do by law. That set of three charts requires each pupil to be the subject of a 45-minute assessment. As each class has 30 or more pupils, how is a teacher supposed to teach when he or she has to spend that much time on assessments?
  Ms. Armstrong: When my hon. Friend handed the Secretary of State those charts earlier, there was some confusion about their purpose. As I understand them, they are a summation of the teacher assessments of the attainment targets for each of the main core curriculum subjects. Is my hon. Friend aware that teachers must not only complete that task to comply with the existing legislation, but must also subject their pupils to the standard assessment test at age seven? We were told by the former Secretary of State that assessments were of less importance than the tests themselves, but teachers are finding that statement both confusing and frustrating. Primary school teachers must measure more than 1,000 attainment targets in the first year. Those targets do not match and have not been correlated, because the scheme was implemented in a hurry by people who do not understand the demands of a primary school classroom.
  Mr. Campbell: I had hoped that the Secretary of State would offer an explanation, but my hon. Friend has come to the Government's rescue and put them right. I notice

  809
  that the orange document that I gave the Secretary of State is still on the Table. He did not take it away to examine it, and it will probably be there still after the Division and then chucked into the dustbin. The whole scheme should be put into the dustbin.
  That is the problem that teachers, especially those in first schools, have to face. They have to take assessments home. Naturally, they will not do the assessment and forget about teaching the kids, so they have to take them home and do them in the evening. They also have to prepare work for the next day's class at home in the evenings.
  I talk to teachers—in fact, I live next door to one. In the summer, I often see her out in the garden preparing for next day's class—she works in a first school. How on earth can teachers, who are dedicated to their pupils, assess kids at the same time as trying to prepare their classes? If he can, will the Minister answer that question when he winds up? Can he rassure teachers about that? I assure the Minister that, if he visits schools, he will find that assessments will be one big headache come March, when every parent will have the right to go to a school and see an up-to-date chart whenever they wish. That will certainly cause problems for teachers.
  The Prime Minister—I do not know who that is at this minute—said that she was in favour of the voucher system. I raised the subject with teachers, and asked for their assessment of it. The answer was simple—I was talking to teachers, not politicians. They thought that it was an opportunity for the rich to go to the schools of their choice. The rich will have the money to put with the voucher system, to pick the best schools. The rich will go to the best schools and those who do not have the money to put with the voucher will go to bad schools. That is how teachers assess the voucher system.
  Perhaps Conservative Members think that they will be elected again next time with their new wonder, super trampoline man. Can we expect a voucher system to be a target for the Government? During the next election campaign, Conservative Members will be pressed on that subject, and they need to be. Teachers are sure that, if such a system in introduced, there will be a two-tier education service in this country.
  Mr. Burt: Does it ever strike the hon. Gentleman that, at present, parents with money pay to move to large houses in expensive areas where there are good comprehensive schools, and leave kids in poor comprehensives at the other end of town to their fate? Does he not realise that that is the way that money works within the present state comprehensive system, and that it produces no more fairness than the system that he describes?
  Mr. Campbell: That does not happen in my area, I am afraid. I do not represent a yuppie area, but an all-mining town in the north-east of England, where people tend to stay put. I am trying to explain that, as teachers are well aware, if a voucher system is introduced—as you have admitted it will be, although you do not know what you are going to do, but we will get it out of you one way or another—people will not shift. People do not just up and leave houses. It costs a lot of money to shift, and to get another mortgage to go somewhere else where you think that there may be better education.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not keep bringing me into the debate, and his speech is now ranging rather wide.
  Mr. Campbell: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  The introduction of the voucher system is a very emotive idea. We should press the Government on this issue all the time. I wish that the Government would listen to teachers and professionals. I have already heard all the humbug about not giving teachers money or about their having to line up for it. Teachers are professionals. The education of the nation, and of all our children, is in their hands. They are also dedicated people and we should treat them as such—in the same way that we now, just about, treat nurses in the health service. We now treat them as professionals and we should treat teachers in the same way.
  Teachers are an honest bunch of people and many of them will not strike. Although one hon. Member mentioned a strike and said that teachers locked out children, for the sake of the kids, many teachers refuse to strike. They are dedicated to the kids' education. They have the schools at heart. As I said, the school that I visited last week would have been a disgrace to a Government of any party.
  I hope that the Secretary of State will take note and will put some more money—if we can get it—into the education service.
  8.14 pm
  Mr. Alistair Burt: Having crossed swords with the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr. Campbell), during his speech, I am happy to agree with his conclusions about the professional status of teachers. There is no difference between the two sides of the House on that. In recent years, the Government have tried their best to restore the professional status of teachers. The Government have treated both teachers and nurses better than the Labour Government ever did.
  I begin by declaring an interest, as I have recently been appointed a parliamentary representative of the Assistant Masters and Mistresses Association. I join two other colleagues from the House—the hon. Members for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) and for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes), who also represent the AMMA. I have been appointed to replace my hon.Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), whom I congratulate warmly upon his promotion into the Government. I pay tribute to him for his work on the Back Benches for the AMMA and for teachers and education in general.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury is a genuine man and a good friend, who has the interests of education very much at heart. I wish him well, and I am sure that all Conservative Members, and many Opposition Members, look forward to him working in the Department of Education and Science at some time in the future. I worked there for three years as parliamentary private secretary to my right hon.Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker), who has certainly left his mark on education. It says much for his foresight that so much of today's wide debate on education is based upon issues that he raised to such public prominence. His recognition of the problems of standards in schools led to his determination to end so many years of talk about a national curriculum, and to introduce one. He focused the nation's attention on standards and quality, on parental choice and the local

  811
  independence of schools, and laid a basic framework, which has quite rightly been fleshed out and altered in the light of practical experience, just as he envisaged.
  A back-handed tribute to my right hon. Friend is that the Opposition's so-called big idea for the forthcoming general election is the very idea that he had and developed three years ago. Opposition Members are seeking, unsuccessfully, to fight on what is really our ground. Their record on education—opposing the reforms of recent years—and their record when in office should fill no one with any confidence. One example is the Opposition's continued and persistent opposition to grant-maintained schools. Whatever may have been the original ideological objection on the Opposition Benches, the history of grant-maintained schools can now be evaluated in the light of experience.
  As reports come through from various schools, especially those in which head teachers originally opposed the idea, they show that there is a tremendous change in staff attitude and morale. Case after case comes to the Department as the schools report. Teachers say that the whole atmosphere in a school, which had been threatened in one form or another, has changed. Headmasters report that they had been thinking of giving up the profession entirely 18 months ago, but they now feel—as their schools feel—rejuvenated.
  I suggest to Opposition Members that any measure that can achieve that for education is worth considering. It is a choice and it is different. Grant-maintained schools may not be one's planned idea of how state education should go, but it is still state education—free education for children in our towns and boroughs. It is still an opportunity for them. The fact that it is something different, which teachers, head teachers, parents and children like, means that it should be given a chance.
  If only Opposition Members would curtail their ideological opposition to an idea that they did not like when it was introduced and give it a chance, perhaps the county would have some confidence in their education programme. For as long as they persist in objecting on almost ideological grounds alone to developments such as grant-maintained schools, there will be no confidence in them. Grant-maintained schools have proved their worth and are giving real excitement back to people who are slogging away for children in our towns and cities. It has given them a chance.
  I am glad to return to the theme of the debate—the Bill. This has been the sort of evening during which debate has ranged more widely. Back-Bench Members have enjoyed it because it is not often that we have an opportunity to spread ourselves a bit with the Whips nodding encouragement and telling us to keep going. However, the matters in hand are just as interesting.
  One of the continuing problems in education over the past few years has been teachers' pay and conditions and the mechanism for deciding on them. I was in the Department of Education and Science when the difficult but necessary decision was taken to abandon Burnham. I am aware of the controversy and the arguments about the loss of negotiating rights and the effect of that on teachers' status. I have no doubt that the right decision was taken to end the unholy mess that Burnham had become and to set up the interim advisory committee. The situation in
  812
  classrooms had become almost intolerable, and although the anger at the loss of negotiating rights was genuine—I had letters from teachers in my constituency proving that it was not a put-up job and that they were really upset —so was the sense of relief that something had been done to end the Burnham stalemate and give teachers some money.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley, who was then Secretary of State for Education and Science, had a cartoon from the Evening Standard. It is still on the wall of his current office. It shows a teacher being escorted by a policeman down an identification parade at a police station. The line contains various undesirables and thugs of one sort or another and in the middle, rather incongruously, is my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley. The policeman is saying, "Can you identify the man who stopped you in the playground and forced a £600 a year rise on you?" At the time of the imposed settlement teachers were complaining that money had been forced upon them and they were angry and upset at receiving such a large increase.
  The proof of the pudding over the past three years is that that anger has, to a large extent, subsided. I do not receive as many letters about the matter from my constituents. Also, a combination of various acceptable settlements from the interim advisory committee, good financial support from the Government and responsible attitudes from the majority of teachers and their trade unions has meant no disruption in schools. The disruptions in schools three or four years ago led to .a dreadful atmosphere and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley taking the action that he did.
  Mr. Ronnie Campbell: The hon. Gentleman mentioned pay and the imposed pay rise. What does the hon. Gentleman say to teachers who have to work at night and who will in the future have to take home assessment sheets and work preparing for the next day's class? What about that side of the job? Surely they should not be doing that in this day and age.
  Mr. Burt: I am not sure that teachers should not be doing that. Necessary work in preparation for classes has always been done by teachers, often outside their existing hours and often involving work at home. That is understood. At the moment, there is an excessive amount of work in the early stages of the national curriculum. A teacher in a secondary modern school in Rossendale took me through an exercise similar to that which the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr. Campbell) showed my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State today. She showed me the sort of work being done for assessment. I sent it to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister has recently written back to me explaining, as the Secretary of State explained to the hon. Member for Blyth Valley, that the Government do not lay down in concrete what forms should be filled out. They are saying what work should be noted, not how. My view—I have expressed it to the Secretary of State—is that there is a good argument for saying that some of the work is excessive.
  As the national curriculum is being implemented, the Government should decide what it is essential to record. I hope that the back-breaking work which I have seen and which the hon. Member for Blythe Valley described will not last for ever. It is the early stages. A great deal of work

  813
  is being done and in years to come it will be recognised by the authorities that much of it need not be done. We must devise a system that accurately records children's development without overdoing the pressure on teachers so that they find themselves doing that and nothing else. That would be ridiculous.
  In some places, it is being overdone, but my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friends on the Front Bench are receptive to the practical examples being sent to them. At some stage, a sensible balance will be achieved between what needs to be recorded and what does not, to teachers free to do the work that they must do while still keeping decent records.
  Ms. Armstrong: The hon. Gentleman is making a good case for our arguments. We said that teachers should be much more involved in the development of the national curriculum and assessment procedures. If the hon. Gentleman had supported that, we might not have had these problems now. Will he support the view of Her Majesty's inspectors that primary teachers in particular should be given at least 10 per cent. non-contact time so that during the school day they can attend to the problems that we have been identifying?
  Mr. Burt: I shall not talk about percentages, but I recognise the problem. It is appreciated that primary school teachers could do with more time and I am not against that.
  In the introduction of something as complex and necessary as the national curriculum, there was bound to be a period during which different ideas and procedures would be considered so as to see what was best. It would be impossible to devise the best system at the first go. I was not able to support the hon. Member for Durham, North-West (Ms. Armstrong) because I do not think that her system would have been the best. We need to get the system into schools and then see what is best. If the Government pick up on that and the good common sense that teachers often display, we can get a workable system.
  As we are coming to the passing of the interim advisory committee, we must not forget that it worked to stabilise the difficult position in schools during the mid-1980s. It has been a success. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley for his foresight in taking a difficult but necessary decision. The 1987 settlement provided a pay rise of 16·4 per cent. The 1988 settlement increased the number and value of incentive allowances, some by as much as 60 per cent. The 1989 settlement secured pay rises of between 6 per cent. and 15 per cent. Burnham had to go and the interim advisory committee was the best thing in the intervening time. It was right to introduce it.
  I welcome the introduction of incentive allowances. They have proved themselves. We can now see how they have increased in size and value. There are now some 174,000 in existence and there will be 14,400 new ones next year. They vary in size from just over £900 to £5,088. They will be increased next year by at least 20 per cent. for teachers who are not at the top of the main scale but who are awarded one of the 14,400 extra incentive allowances. It was a good idea, which brought some flexibility into the pay structure. It is right to recognise excellence, high professionalism and commitment.
  All that said, it was clear that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) said, the committee was
  814
  an interim measure. It was not acceptable to go on as we were. Hence the determination of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley who, even as he worked on other matters, consulted extensively to try to find a new system to lay the foundations for what was announced in July by my right hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. MacGregor) and what has been brought forward today by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State.
  I welcome the broad thrust of the Government's proposals. Both I and moderate teachers, with whose representatives I have been in contact, welcome the return of the negotiating procedure. I am glad that we were not too hasty about bringing it back. It was right to talk it through carefully. However, I am pleased that there is to be a return to the negotiating procedure. I recognise the genuine feeling of concern in the teaching profession about its withdrawal.
  I am pleased that there are to be separate committees for heads and deputy heads. I am also pleased about the linking of pay and conditions—a long overdue reform—the issuing of a timetable and the provisions to avoid deadlock. They are also welcome to all those who remember the interminable indecision of Burnham.
  I intend to highlight two concerns that have been referred to in the debate. I do not believe that they are insuperable. The Bill ought to be given a Second Reading, but I expect those matters to be fully debated in Committee. I hope that the Government will therefore accept well-meaning expressions of concern. On the machinery of negotiation, the Government will need to exert themselves as to the issue of their reserve powers in order to explain precisely how they intend to use them, and under what circumstances.
  Although I believe that reserve powers are a legitimate refuge for a Secretary of State in order to deal with a problem, it is clear that a full explanation of their intended use would take much of the sting out of attacks upon them. There is no overwhelming consensus for an independent review body, and the credibility of the new pay arrangements will be adversely affected unless a measure of independence is guaranteed. I hope that Ministers will take due note of that in the wind-up speech and in Committee.
  Ministers must also recognise that there is a certain amount of concern in the teaching profession about local determination of pay. I believe that to be an evolutionary development from the flexibility introduced through the interim advisory committee. However, it is new and not fully tested. The Secretary of State would do well to proceed with caution and to listen carefully to the arguments on that point in Committee. I believe that it is a welcome development, but it is fraught with difficulties and must be properly and fully explained.
  At the heart of the Bill is a further Government commitment to restore the status of the teaching profession. That is both right and proper. The problem is not so difficult as it is sometimes made out to be by Opposition Members. The vast majority of my constituents have a high regard for their children's teachers. They recognise that tremendous efforts are being made to cope with changes to examinations and with the national curriculum. Parents want, as do teachers, the continued improvement in standards and quality to which this Government are committed. They made their benchmark on that at a far earlier date than the Opposition. Parents in my constituency want their children's teachers to be well

  815
  paid. They also want the Government to recognise that fact. Our record in that respect is far better than that of the Opposition.
  The Bill—the main thrust of which I welcome and support, with some reservations that must be considered in Committee—represents yet another change in education. Few other areas of our national life have experienced such change in recent years. Despite the media's concentration on some bad examples of education in England and Wales, the majority of schools—heads, assistants and teachers —have made strenuous efforts to come to terms with and to implement change, to the best of their ability. However, the speed and, on occasion, the manner of those changes have caused concern.
  Despite the extraordinary achievements of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) in all her many works, the Government have been thought sometimes to be going too far and too fast and listening too little. When change is necessary, speed of decision is a good quality for which we should make no apologies, but there is no reason why adequate explanation and a determination at least to create some form of consensus should not be an integral part of our future approach.
  Recently the Foreign Secretary said that, should he be elected Prime Minister, he would introduce, as a stamp of government, the policy of listening, deciding and persuading. I hope that that will be the stamp of the new Government under the leadership of my right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major). I am sure, knowing him, that the sentiments expressed by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will strike a strong chord among the teaching profession and the wider public. Such an approach would be warmly welcomed. I hope that we make a good start during the passage of the Bill.
  8.34 pm
  Mr. Bob Cryer: It is interesting to reflect on the departure of the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) and her arrival on the collective bargaining scene in 1978. When there was a dispute at Ford and the workers went on strike to share, as they then described it, in Ford's prosperity, the right hon. Member for Finchley hastened there to assure the strikers that, under a Conservative Government, there would be free collective bargaining. This measure demonstrates the calumny of that announcement. It is not true. It amounts to more centralised dictatorship by the Secretary of State for Education and Science.
  Schedule 1 provides the Secretary of State with the power to appoint the main committee and the sub-committee. He will have the absolute power to determine pay relationships. At the same time, the Government welcome the changes in eastern Europe. There were no free, independent trade unions in those countries. Trade unions were very much the creature of the state. Eastern European states fell into the error of not allowing independent trade unions to scrutinise the machinery of government.
  By taking these powers, the Secretary of State intends to bring back pay bargaining, but it is not really pay bargaining; it is pay deciding by the Secretary of State. He has not chosen to make provision for the affirmative resolution procedure. The House would then have, as of
  816
  right, a paltry one and a half hours in which to discuss the merits of the Secretary of State's decision. The Secretary of State intends to use instead the negative resolution procedure. For the Bill not to provide for the affirmative resolution procedure is yet another characteristic subversion by the Government of our powers and an example of the Secretary of State's determination to have strong, centralised powers of imposition.
  According to the negative resolution procedure, a prayer has to be tabled and time obtained. The time obtained need not necessarily be the full one and a half hours required for the affirmative resolution procedure. The time obtained has to be negotiated through the usual channels. If we want a debate to be held under the negative resolution procedure, that has to be negotiated through the usual channels, too. With the affirmative resolution procedure, there has to be a resolution affirming the statutory instrument.
  The Department of Education and Science is notorious for abusing the legislative powers of the House. Under the Education Reform Act 1988, powers are provided—they are known as the Henry VIII sections—by means of which the Secretary of State can amend the primary legislation passed by the House of Commons. That is an outrageous misuse of legislative powers.
  Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend speaks with considerable authority as Chairman of the joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Will he confirm that there is also this difference between the negative and the affirmative resolution procedures: that an order under the negative procedure can come into force before it has been debated in the House, even though a prayer has been tabled against it?
  Mr. Cryer: Indeed: my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Moreover, because of primary legislation passed by the House, an order can be laid, and can come into force, even when the House is not sitting. The day when it was laid before the House counts in the number of days within which prayers can be laid. The annulment procedure for negative instruments is less than satisfactory.
  A delegated legislation conference of Commonwealth countries was held at the end of 1989, at which the Department of Education and Science was criticised for the way in which it has abused the procedures of the House —not by me or elected representatives but by advisers to the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, who were looking for particularly outlandish examples of abuse of powers.
  The Bill will not improve the generally low morale of the teaching profession. Teachers must not only battle with the removal of negotiating rights and of the collective bargaining system which they had been used to for many years, but must deal with the shortage of money, which is not exemplified by them personally, although their pay is not good.
  I hope that the Minister will say how the financial provisions in schedule 3 for the chairman, deputy chairman and members of the advisory committee will compare with teachers' pay. It is interesting to note that the Secretary of State has the power to determine their pay and conditions, but will their pay be in line with teachers' pay or will it be very much more? If it is greatly enlarged, as I suspect, over the generality of teachers' pay, the Bill will cause even more affront to the teaching profession.

  817
  Quite apart from their incomes, teachers are concerned about the lack of money for education. For example, they are outraged by the nearly £9 million that was paid in 1989–90 to the city technology college in Bradford, when roughly £9 million has been provided for the capital expenditure of almost 300 state schools in Bradford. I attended prizegiving at Buttershaw upper school last Friday, when the head made it clear—I endorsed his view strongly—that the CTC can provide nothing that cannot be provided in a superior and emphatically better way in the state sector.
  When the Government speak of choice, they are speaking of the choice between a state sector starved of public funds and the demonstrable public relations front of the CTC, which has a new building, new equipment and has had lavish expenditure on its facilities. Compare that with, for example, the theatre of Buttershaw upper, which has been in existence for 25 years but is having to raise money for refurbishment because insufficient money has been made available by the Government.
  Teachers at Buttershaw upper, as in every other state school in Bradford, are dedicated and devoted to their cause and to the children they serve. None the less, a comparison with the CTC is invidious. The Government pour money into CTCs, but as the Department of Education and Science deals with applications from local authorities in a fairly leisurely fashion, it will be almost two years before a school that was damaged by fire—its pupils have transferred to buildings in my constituency because of that fire—can be restored at least in part.
  Under local management for schools, teachers have extra burdens thrust on them, which is causing enormous difficulties. When the Pickles majority of Conservatives were in power in Bradford, they imposed their local mangement schemes on schools but made no provision for a schedule of dilapidation for each school and made no clear apportionment between local authority expenditure and school budget expenditure on major capital items. That is causing enormous difficulties. Since Labour councillors gained control of Bradford, they have redirected expenditure, albeit under a limited Tory budget, to the best of their ability. Several million pounds have been given to education, which forestalled what would have been a certain crisis because of the lack of expenditure by Tories in Bradford.
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the statistics on teachers' pay, capital expenditure. size of classes or any other education statistic were better under the Government in which he was a Minister than under this Government? He was a Minister in that Government, who had an appalling record.
  Mr. Cryer: I am delighted to tell the hon. Gentleman that, contrary to the campaign on denigration and mischievous misrepresentation which he and his fellow Conservatives have undertaken, in comprehensive education, which covers between 85 and 90 per cent. of our children, the number of O and A-levels obtained per thousand children increased virtually every year from 1970. Therefore, why on earth the Government are attacking comprehensive schools I really do not know. On the criterion of academic achievement, comprehensive schools have been successful. I know, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recognise, that education is not
  818
  solely about passing examinations but about many other things. The hon. Gentleman and his fellow Conservatives tend to take only the examinations criterion into account.
  Mr. Bennett: Examination results are an important criterion and quality control standard. Why did the Inner London education authority, before it was abolished on 1 April this year, spend more on pupils than any other authority, yet come 88th in the examination league? Waltham Forest, another Labour authority, spent £2,345 per pupil but came 95th. The best authorities spent the least, and in the main were Conservative authorities. Before the hon. Gentleman says that the reason for that is the existence of middle-class areas, I would point out that Wigan, a Labour authority, came 15th in the examination league. It is a question not of money but of quality of examination results and quality control in schools.
  Mr. Cryer: The hon. Gentleman has trotted out these claims before, but London has some of the worst education problems. He is saying that, if an area has bad education problems, it cannot exceed a centrally directed level of expenditure. It is characteristic of him and his fellow Conservatives that they are simply not prepared to take into account the variations in pattern around the country. Of course there will be a higher and lower level of education expenditure, and there is bound to be some variation in examination results. That is one of the differences between regions and cities. It does the hon. Gentleman no good to advance that argument, which is paltry, to say the least.
  I draw the House's attention to the other aspect of centralised control that causes me considerable concern. Clause 5(4) says:
  "the Secretary of State may give directions to the Advisory Committee as to considerations to which they are to have regard and financial or other constraints to which their recommendations are to be subject, and as to the time within which they are to report to him; and any such directions may be varied or revoked by further directions under this section."
  The reference to revoking directions shows some formality, but nowhere in the Bill do I see a definition of "directions". A direction is not subject to the approval of the House or of anyone down the Corridor; it is an unfettered, unanswerable, unaccountable power given by the Bill to the Secretary of State for Education and Science. That is not good enough. The directions should be defined. This is a way of getting around the delegated legislation powers laid down by the House. The Department of Education and Science not only abuses the powers of subordinate legislation but tries to get round it altogether. That must be stopped.
  Over the past few days, the Government have been trotting out a lot of support for the United Nations. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) drew attention to the International Labour Organisation, which has strongly criticised the Bill. I need not go into the criticisms, because my hon. Friend read them out. I want to point out the importance of this United Nations-affiliated body. If the Government choose to support the United Nations over the Gulf, they must not be selective. They must take notice of the ILO and recognise that it is worried about the deliberate unilateral abrogation of collective bargaining rights for teachers. This is unfair and unjust for teachers, just as it would be for any other section of employed people. I hope that the Government recognise that.
  8.51 pm
  Mr. George Walden: I hope that the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) will excuse me if I do not approach the problems of education in Britain from the prism of the Gulf and the United Nations. There are other slightly more relevant approaches. I apologise to Front Benchers for my absence from the debate for the past couple of hours—there have been external distractions.
  I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State on the wisdom of the Bill, which to some extent he owes to his predecessor, and particularly on the persuasive way in which he presented it to the House. The teaching profession has had to wait a long time to have its pay arrangements modified and updated. During that period, it has had to undergo a series of reforms, with all the strains that that involves.
  Unlike some hon. Members, I believe that it is necessary to be frank about what we are discussing. We are talking not only about pay but, by the Government's definition, about recruitment, retention and motivation. I was glad that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State placed some stress on quality. To discuss the teaching profession and its pay purely in terms of recruitment, retention and motivation without any emphasis on quality is to misjudge the basis of the issue.
  In his previous incarnation, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State—he is not here, for reasons which I understand—was Secretary of State for Health. I wish to say something that will not please the Opposition but it reflects the truth, which is what we are here to discuss. When my right hon. and learned Friend was in charge of nurses, he had problems of recruitment and retention, but not of quality. I, for one, have never heard any of my constituents complain or seen any reports in the press about the inadequate quality of nurses. As a user of the national health service, I have nothing to complain about in that respect.
  The Opposition know as well as I do that it is a fact of life that there is a problem with the quality of teachers. It afflicts those with the least social and economic advantages much more than it afflicts people like me who send their children to private schools, for reasons which I would be happy to defend. In addressing pay, recruitment, retention and motivation, we must lay the emphasis on quality because that problem is clearly perceived by ordinary people.
  To begin with the mechanics of the Bill, it is natural that the Opposition should query the insistence by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State on the need for regional pay bargaining and opt-out arrangements. I do not want to enter into any great controversy. Apart from anything else, it might be difficult to steam up the Chamber on this issue as I seem to be the only person on the Conservative Benches.
  The philosophy of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) seems to fit naturally with his philosophy on the uniformity and homogeneity of the comprehensive system. That is not a contentious statement but an objective observation. It is a fact of Labour party policy to want to have—I do not say "impose"—a uniform comprehensive system, but that is another issue. It is natural that the hon. Member for Blackburn should want uniform national pay bargaining to go with that system. I listened to what he said about the need for some local
  820
  variation, but the emphasis of his speech and philosophical approach was, naturally and legitimately from his point of view, on uniformity and socialist neatness and tidiness.
  I do not happen to agree. I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State about the much harsher and more difficult course of differentiation. It is rational that, in favouring the opting out of schools, my right hon. and learned Friend should favour the opting out of pay negotiations, because the two go together. The hon. Member for Blackburn talked about the divisive nature of opting out of schools and of pay negotiations. I urge him to look more in terms of a variegated and richer system, offering more opportunities to those deprived of them—including, lamentably, large numbers of people.
  I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State both on his insistence on opting-out pay negotiations and on his caution. The hon. Member for Blackburn was, I think, right to draw attention to the possibility of the risk of inflation in teachers' pay accompanied by no compensating gain in the quality of teaching or management; that, at any rate, was how I interpreted his remarks. In the course of what struck me as a very responsible exchange between the two Front Benches, my right hon. and learned Friend replied with no demonstration of naive enthusiasm. On the contrary, he appeared prudently to recognise the possible risk.
  As I have explained, I believe that the Bill is necessary if people are to be offered the choice that I believe is crucial. I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend—it is necessary to run the risk, but to run it prudently. The last thing that we need is a system which will lead to leapfrogging local authority teachers' pay without any compensating improvement in quality.
  That brings me back to the central theme of quality. At the risk of being divisive, or what the Americans call a party-pooper, I must say that quality strikes me as the key to the problem. I was encouraged by what my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State had to say about the latest recruitment statistics. I know that the Government say that teacher shortages are regional and confined to certain subjects; nevertheless, there is disturbing evidence that the problem may extend rather further.
  If the shortages begin to bite harder as the demographic dip deepens, we may experience a nightmare. The recruiters may be driven, to put it crudely, to take anyone who offers to do the job.
  I am aware that we have not reached that stage yet, but it really is a nightmare. If it becomes reality, those who are recruited will, by definition, be given the equivalent of jobs for life, and once in the profession may be very difficult to remove; moreover, it is a sociological inevitability that they will find themselves teaching in the most deprived parts of the country. Time and again, we risk a return to the inequality of opportunity that has so beset the system in the past.
  As the years go by, we must monitor closely not only the mere mechanics of recruitment and retention, but the quality of those recruited. I hope that my. hon. Friend the Minister will be able to satisfy my curiosity about the pattern of A-level scores achieved by those recruited into teaching over the past few years. I acknowledge that that is a rough-and-ready guide, but at least it is a guide of some sort to the quality of new recruits.
  It is not enough for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State simply to say that those now

  821
  entering the profession are sufficient to staff the profession. We are asking more of teachers. We are not only placing more responsibility on them in connection with the GCSE examinations—we are asking them to make more judgments about the pupils. That, of course, is in the nature of the the examinations. We must ensure that quality is not only maintained but improved, because children's futures depend increasingly on the judgments of individual teachers.
  Another reason not only to maintain but to improve the quality of teaching relates to international comparisons. I hope that the traumas of the past few years have taught us one thing—that we cannot think only in terms of our own national performance. We must watch with a keen eye the quality of teaching in other countries and make comparisons, however disturbing they may occasionally be.
  If we are to get teachers of quality, it is not enough to offer them good pay, although that is essential; we must also offer them good conditions. To put it simply, we must also offer them good children. When I say that, I am thinking of children starting school at the age of five. Are they children whom teachers will find it easy to handle? These children are not always easy to handle. I am not talking merely about children in deprived areas, but about those in my own area, where in many classes a third or more of the children come from broken homes.
  I apologise to my hon. Friend the Minister for reverting to the subject of nursery schools. To improve the quality of education in the country as a whole, and to attract higher-quality graduates and teachers to the profession, it is essential that the Government have a plan, however long term, to introduce uniform, high-quality nursery education for people of all social backgrounds—and not only for those able to pay for it. If the Government do that, they will—overnight—make the teaching profession far more attractive because teachers will inherit children who, from the age of five, are less likely to suffer from behavioural problems and who are far more adapted to learning.
  Any hon. Member who has talked to teachers will have heard them explain in graphic detail how difficult it is to start teaching a child of five who has behavioural problems, who cannot tie his or her shoe laces and who has not even a minimal sense of discipline. Nursery schools will have an important influence on the recruitment, motivation and retention of teachers. I urge the Government to keep that necessity closely in mind, quite apart from all the other self-evident educational benefits that flow from high-quality nursery education.
  The final thought with which I leave my hon. Friend is that, when one looks in detail at the Government's proposals, and at the intricate and subtly elastic formulae by which teachers will be able to get a little bit ahead of the annual increases for non-manual workers, one is encouraged in as much as they allow the possibility of recognition by the Government that there is a problem not only in terms of recruitment, but perhaps also in terms of recruitment of the necessary quality. However, the proposals are a little over-prudent in the sense that slightly more dramatic measures will be needed in the years to come. If we are to attempt to bring ourselves up to the standards achieved in some continental countries, we must face the country with the need for some transfer of resources—I know that there is no easy new money available—from other areas of government to education,
  822
  to achieve a high-quality teaching profession. It will prove necessary to raise teachers's pay more dramatically than is implied by the present cautious formulae.
  The Bill presents a sensible new system for deciding teachers' pay, but there will have to be a national will to put more effort and resources into education. It will be necessary to explain to the public why there have to be transfers from other areas—I have my own views about where they should come from—to raise the quality of the profession. Even the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) in his Walden interview was driven to recognise that that may be a problem. This is a satisfactory Bill, but the Government will have to recognise that the centre of the debate is and will remain the issue of teacher quality.
  9.10 pm
  Mr. Edward O'Hara: Like the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) I apologise for having been unable to attend the whole debate, and I apologise in advance if I am therefore slightly repetitious of matters covered earlier. I had a long-standing commitment this morning to support pupils from a special school in my authority's area who were recipients of one of the schools curriculum awards. I then entertained them —it was a learning experience for them—in the House this afternoon. I am sure that hon. Members who have attended this debate will applaud such an active expression of commitment and support for the staff and pupils of Cartbridge special school in Knowsley. I pay tribute to those pupils—they are designated as having behavioural difficulties—for the impeccable way in which they represented their school today in trying circumstances in the capital.
  At one point during the afternoon, when my guests were in the Gallery listening to a sample of the debate, I heard the Secretary of State list the purposes behind the Bill. The Bill must be judged in the light of how it deals with those purposes, which were to improve the quality of entrants to the profession, to improve retention in the profession, to find teachers of specific subjects to fill posts where they are needed, to raise morale and to motivate the profession, which I hope means to motivate them to give of their best to all the nation's children.
  I wish to discuss the provisions of opting out of the national pay negotiations and to discover how adequately the Bill deals with the purposes listed by the Secretary of State. The Bill is based on a cruel deceit, speciously justified in the Secretary of State's speech by a misrepresentative stereotype: of the irresponsible Labour authority unable to compete in the wages free-for-all due to extravagance with its resources. Most Labour authorities are voted into office because their electorates trust them to take responsibility for the services that they need, and in the main those authorities acquit themselves honourably of their responsibilities.
  The deceit lies in the suggestion that differential payments of salary can be allowed without engendering division between schools and between the haves and the have-nots in society—all from a party which in the past week or so has had a sudden excess of enthusiasm for the classless society. The deceit is cruel because it will compound the problems of the authorities which have the greatest problems and therefore need the best qualified and best motivated teachers.

  823
  What are the extravagances upon which those authorities expend their scarce resources? Plenty of Labour-controlled authorities such as mine in Knowsley have to struggle with the resources available at their disposal to provide educational guidance services, necessitous clothing and free school meals. They must also provide a careers service—and there is a paradox, because the more depressed the economy, the less optimistic are the job prospects for young people. The careers guidance service must therefore work harder, which in turn must have resource implications.
  The extravagances also include nursery education here I agree with the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden)—and provision for special educational needs such as that expended on pupils whom I entertained today. It also includes the provision of speech therapists.
  Those authorities recruit, retain and motivate their teachers through their proven commitment to the education service and to the support services that their teachers need—services which certain tabloids present as an extravagant use of resources. The efforts of those authorities and the loyalty of their teachers are undermined by the Government's patent lack of commitment, as shown by their refusal to put resources into the education service.
  The statistics may have been referred to earlier. We may talk about a 10 per cent. increase in expenditure, but there has been a decline in central Government input while local government input into the education service has increased. There has also been a fall in the share of gross domestic product going to education, and in the next spending round there is a clear lack of commitment to maintaining spending on education relative to other services. The Bill will further undermine the loyalty of teachers in those authorities.
  Will the Bill improve quality at entry or improve retention and morale? No, it will not do that for the profession or for the teachers of all the nation's children. If it achieves anything, it may concentrate the best that is available in the few authorities most able to pay because they have fewer attendant and legitimate calls on their resources, or in the few schools fortunate enough to have children whose parents can contribute if they are not already adequately bankrolled by the Government.
  The Bill ignores the real measures which might achieve the purposes that the Secretary of State set out. It ignores measures to improve the quality of teacher education and a scheme of teacher appraisal as an instrument of professional development. It ignores the possibility of a general teachers' council to underpin the status and self-esteem of teachers and their control of the quality of the teaching profession. Above all, it ignores a commitment of adequate resources to the service and to teachers' salaries as a whole.
  The Bill is built on the familiar fallacy so evident in the city technology colleges and the grant-maintained schools —that the success of the advantaged few can benefit the many by example. The Bill contains the same inbuilt dynamic. In fact, the success of the few can be achieved only at the expense of the majority. The Bill does not begin to address the problems that it should address, and it should be rejected.
  9.19 pm
  Mr. Derek Fatchett: I should probably start by congratulating those who have participated in the debate on having the strength to resist other temptations around the building. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) has participated in virtually all the debate, and others who achieved the same target have shown aspects of democracy at its very best on what may be remembered as an historic occasion.
  It is not without significance that this is the first education debate with the new Secretary of State who, together with the rest of the country, is aware that the Labour party is putting forward positive policies on education and enjoys a 30 per cent. lead in the opinion polls. So worried was the Conservative party about Labour's education lead that, in order to divert public attention from our sensible education policies today, it organised a leadership election. They were so desperate to keep the debate away from the media's attention.
  May I say, in parenthesis, that I acknowledge the wisdom of the choice of Education Ministers. I suspect that, at some later stage, they will not be in a position to come back and lecture us about backing winners. It is good to see unanimity in the Department of Education and Science for once. Given that Department's track record, it is not surprising that it got the result totally wrong.
  I suspect that today's election will be remembered in future history classes because it offers an interesting question—when was the first time that a political party could organise an election system in which a candidate who gained a majority was ejected from office and a subsequent candidate who did not gain a majority was then declared the winner? It may well be the first time in history that a person with a majority has been rejected and someone without a majority has been acclaimed the victor.
  That election system will appeal to the Liberal party, representatives of which are not here at present. Those of us who listened to all the debate enjoyed the Liberal cameo from the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor), which was a typical Liberal Democrat speech. I noted virtually all his comments for 15 minutes, and every one was a criticism of the Bill. He then said that he was going to vote for it and would recommend to his hon. Friends that they do exactly the same. He also said that they would demand that certain conditions should be met, or they would not vote with the Government on Third Reading. I am sure that the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) will lose a night's sleep tonight with that threat from the Liberal Democrats, whose spokesman gave us a typical performance.
  A backcloth to this debate was provided by discussions on teacher morale. It was interesting that all speakers recognised that there is a problem of low teacher morale. The Secretary of State, and one or two of his colleagues, presumably working from the same central office brief, argued that the collapse in teacher morale was somehow attributable to the teachers' pay disputes of the mid-1980s. I find that a strange argument. I notice that the Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns), nods away sagely behind the Ministers. He, too, can read the brief.
  Members of the interim advisory committee responsible for writing this year's report said that there had been a further collapse in teacher morale in the past two years. My sense of history may not be great, but it is sufficient to

  825
  tell me that there have been no teacher disputes during the past two years. Teacher morale has fallen for a number of other reasons. If Conservative Members do not understand that, they simply do not understand the current problems facing teachers trying to perform their roles as classroom teachers and as part of the education system. One can list those problems.
  All primary schoolteachers have been worried by the weight and pace of the introduction of the national curriculum. It is difficult for them to know what will happen next year about testing at the age of seven. Conservative Members may ask, why should they know, when even the Secretary of State does not know what will happen about testing? The difference is that primary teachers have a direct responsibility for their children and would like to know what will happen about testing.
  We have heard about morale. Many teachers are trying to carry out difficult tasks in crumbling schools but Conservative Members say that that does not matter. For reasons that will be apparent to hon. Members, I recently spent a few weeks in Bradford, where we mounted a successful campaign. While there, I saw schools in which it was extremely difficult for teachers and children to perform to the top of their ability and to extend their talents. One of the schools that I visited had been in temporary buildings for seven years. The head teacher told me that it was so cold moving from one temporary classroom to another that the authority provided the teachers with thermal underwear. It would be much better if the Government provided those children with a proper school so that they could get on with the real job of learning.
  The local authority in Bradford was the Thatcher experiment in the north of England. I do not know whether the new leader of the Conservative party approves of what went on in Bradford, but the people there did not approve of that experiment with their children, and nor do they approve for one moment of a reduction this year of £13 million in the education budget. That is a sign of the education priorities of Bradford's Conservatives.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, South (Mr. O'Hara) said that one or two people in the Conservative party have suddenly discovered education. That is a thin commitment, especially when judged against the record of what Conservatives in local government in places such as Bradford have done to the education system. I visited in Bedworth a secondary school which was under local management, and the head teacher told me that he was to lose two and a half teaching posts. How can we maintain morale and improve standards in schools that are faced with such cuts, and what are the implications for the delivery of the curriculum and good quality education?
  Morale in the teaching profession is at an all-time low. That is not a criticism of teachers and their performance —quite the opposite: they are doing an excellent job in difficult circumstances. A real partnership in education must be built between Government and teachers. Government should provide teachers with the tools, resources and ability to allow them to get on with the job of providing our children with the education that they deserve and the country needs for the future. The Government have failed to keep their part of the bargain.
  The Bill will do little to raise the morale of teachers. My hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) and for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg) spoke about the machinery introduced by the Bill, which
  826
  will add yet again to the centralised powers of the Department of Education and Science. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) chastised the Department for its use of those powers. One of the Secretary of State's predecessors took for the holder of that office more than 400 powers in the Education Reform Act 1988. The Bill adds to those powers. The problem which has been evident in all the speeches in the debate is that they can be used arbitrarily and whimsically in the industrial relations and collective bargaining processes.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke indicated dissent.
  Mr. Fatchett: The Secretary of State shakes his head, but as the Bill stands, he can intervene on a negotiated settlement and tell the parties that the settlement is unacceptable. There are no parameters to begin with, yet there is a whimsical and arbitrary decision at the end. if we are to have true negotiations and good industrial relations, surely those involved have a right to expect that they will be provided with clear parameters from the Secretary of State rather than his being allowed simply to intervene in a way that will be totally disruptive.
  The other key element of the Bill deals with the opt-out provisions by which grant-maintained schools and local education authorities can opt out of the national pay bargaining procedures. It is absolutely clear from all the speeches from Conservative Members, including those from the hon. Members for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris) and for Buckingham (Mr. Walden), that the opt-out mechanism is regarded as the means of introducing competitive bidding for a scarce resource. That scare resource is the teacher.
  The Secretary of State made two interesting comments, one of which showed an ignorance of reality and the other his failure to understand the importance of his own role. Taking the second point first, the right hon. and learned Gentleman seemed relaxed about the prospect of individual local authorities opting out of the national agreement. Indeed, he went further and said—I believe that I am quoting him correctly—that he looked forward to a situation in which three quarters of local education authorities will opt out of the national pay bargaining machinery.
  The Secretary of State then failed to understand that by allowing, and, indeed, encouraging that process, the Government have no view about and no role in teacher supply or pay, or the distribution of teachers across subjects and local authorities. The Secretary of State has abdicated his own responsibility in the Thatcherite dream of how the free market is supposed to work.
  Mr. Walden: I am not seeking to make a mischievous point, but the hon. Gentleman said earlier that my right hon. and learned Friend was centralising powers. He is now saying that my right hon. and learned Friend is irresponsibly throwing his authority to the dogs. Is it not true that, by the very caution of his presentation of this issue, my right hon. and learned Friend is showing that he is aware of the need to encourage local responsibility and devolution, while having some sense of national restraint? Why does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that fact rather than seeking to make mischief on both sides of the argument?
  Mr. Fatchett: I was not trying to make mischief, but to point out to the hon. Gentleman and to his right hon. and

  827
  learned Friend that there is a contradiction in the Government's philosophical position, as is so often the case with the Thatcherite philosophy of an autocratic centre combined with a belief in the free market. Both are irresponsible positions.
  The other part of the Secretary of State's argument is that opt-out will not lead to leap-frogging, because there are no shortages. Recently, when the teachers' unions published their survey on teacher shortages, the Secretary of State said that there was no problem and that teacher shortages do not exist. The Secretary of State's response was to say that the results of the survey were "ludicrous".
  I thought that, instead of relying on the teachers' unions' data, I would go and have a look at the figures produced by the Department of Education and Science. I went back to its recent comprehensive survey which the right hon. and learned Gentleman's predecessor published on 17 July. Over a five-year period by subject, and a shorter period by individual local authorities, the survey showed that the problem of teacher shortages is growing. The subject areas in which teacher shortages have grown in the past five years include French, German, history, geography, craft design and technology, music, physical education, religious education, drama, careers and remedial education——
  Mr. Flannery: What is left?
  Mr. Fatchett: Yes, not a great deal of the curriculum is left, when all those subjects are taken out.
  I repeat that teacher shortages have increased in all those subjects. In addition, the DES provided the figures by region. Not one region has improved on the figures provided by the Department; indeed, the figures for every region have deteriorated. For example, in the northern region, the number of vacancies trebled during the period 1988–90. That is based not on my statistics, not on the statistics of the teachers' unions, but on the Department's statistics. In the Yorkshire and Humberside region, the number of vacancies increased by 33 per cent. The number of vacancies in London rose by 50 per cent., and in the rest of the south-east by 100 per cent. The reality is that teacher shortages are a serious problem.
  The Secretary of State argues that there is not a teacher shortage. He also tries to tell us of another success story —that recruitment for initial teacher training is working so well that we do not need to worry about future teacher shortages. I shall cite figures that were given in Hansard on 26 March for recruitment to the areas of skills shortages, compared with the targets set by the Department. For maths, recruitment was 75 per cent. of the target figure; for craft, design and technology, it was 70 per cent.; for chemistry, it was 72 per cent.; and for physics, it was 55 per cent. The Secretary of State claims that each of those figures is some sort of success. Is not the reality quite different? The truth is that there is an increasing problem of teacher shortages.
  Conservative Members advocate the opt-out procedure, but they do so for only one reason. They represent the rich south-east of England, and they want to use the opt-out procedure to buy in teachers, not to add to teacher supply——
  Mr. Timothy Wood: To add to cost.
  Mr. Fatchett: The Government Whip is right. He should not have said that. No doubt he will be writing a letter of apology later. He was right to say that the opt-out procedure will add to costs—[Interruption.] The Secretary of State appears to be telling the hon. Gentleman what he should have said, but in fact his remark was true. It will add to costs, but it will not add one additional teacher to the teaching force.
  The opting-out procedure will result in a redistribution from the poorer authorities in inner London to the better-off, outer-London authorities. Tonight's Evening Standard highlighted the crisis of teacher shortages in London. The Bill will add to that crisis, to the cost of inner-London boroughs and to the benefit of outer-London boroughs. It is a redistribution from the poor to the rich, and that characterises the Government's record during the past 11 years.
  The Bill could have done a great deal for teacher morale if it had dealt with the establishment of a general teacher council and with teacher appraisal, which this Government have decided not to introduce. It would have helped to improve quality in the classroom. The Government could do a great deal more in initial teacher training. It is the Labour party that is advocating a national core curriculum for teacher training and national standards of competence in newly trained teachers.
  The Government could have done a great deal more to attract teachers from the pool of qualified teachers that are currently inactive. Indeed, there are as many inactive as there are active teachers. What have the Government done about that pool of teachers, who could be retrained and who could work in the classroom? They are spending no more than the cost of four teachers' salaries in each local authority—hardly a programme designed to attract teachers back to the profession and to give them the confidence, the training and, in many cases, the necessary help with child care to enable them to return to work.
  As always, the Government have greatly damaged our education system. They have damaged the morale of teachers. One of their most damaging acts, even for this Government, was to take negotiating rights away from teachers. The Bill does little to rectify that record. It is too late, it does too little, and it does not deal with the major problems in our education system. That is why I shall ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote for our amendment, which puts forward a real policy for education and gives hope to parents and children.
  9.39 pm
  The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Tim Eggar): We had a wide-ranging debate, and I am sure that we all felt that we were at the centre of the nation's affairs. That was well borne out by the level of attendance throughout the debate.
  I particularly welcomed the comments of my hon. Friends the Members for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall), for Hyndburn (Mr. Hargreaves), and for Basildon (Mr. Amess), of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North (Mr. Burt)—whom I welcome with his newly declared interest—and of the hon. Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs). I am grateful for the way in which my hon. Friends praised the professionalism and ability of so many of our teachers, which was in stark contrast to the comments of Opposition Members. It was not until the speech of the

  829
  hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) that we heard any praise for the work that our teachers do in the classrooms.
  Mr. Cryer: That is not true. I said that they are dedicated.
  Mr. Eggar: I am delighted to hear the hon. Gentleman remark that teachers are dedicated, although he was not present in the Chamber for most of the debate.
  I do not recognise from the many visits that I have paid to primary and secondary schools throughout the country over the past two or three months the gloomy picture painted by Opposition Members. I pay my own tribute to teachers' dedication and commitment, and to their achievements in giving effect to many of the far-reaching improvements that we introduced over the past two or three years.
  The situation in schools today is very different from four or five years ago. The credit for that transformation belongs to the teachers themselves. Many teachers and their unions recognise the folly of the union action of the 1980s. Great credit is also due to the interim advisory committee, whose reports led to far-reaching improvements to the teachers' pay structure. I noted with interest the remarks of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) about the IAC's role. The Government played their part in rebuilding teachers' self-esteem and in reaffiming to parents the importance and commitment of the teaching profession.
  The Bill is an important step forward. By restoring teachers' negotiating rights, we are expressing our confidence that the progress made in recent years will be sustained. The Bill does not look back to the shambles of Burnham, but looks forward——
  Mr. Straw: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Eggar: —to the effective determination of teachers' pay ——
  Mr. Straw rose——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that, if the Minister does not choose to give way, the hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.
  Mr. Eggar: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Straw: The Minister praises the interim advisory committee and suggests that everything has changed since 1986. If that is true, why does the IAC's third report, published just a few months ago, state:
  "We are in no doubt from our schools visits that teacher morale is lower now that in our first two years, and that a number of factors are contributing to this."?
  Why is teacher morale lower now than it was before?
  Mr. Eggar: One reason why teachers feel undervalued are remarks of the kind just made by the hon. Member for Blackburn, who year after year produces false prospectuses about teacher shortages and makes no apology when his claims are proved wrong. The hon. Gentleman has a role to play in contributing to improving the status of the teaching profession—a role that he has consistently refused to play.
  I recognise that every feature of the Bill will not be welcome to every party involved. We have to realise that the divisions between the various teaching unions are as deep as ever. We all know that their own particular
  830
  interests rarely coincide. But the machinery that we are introducing, through the Bill, will give the employers and the six unions the opportunity to discuss, to negotiate and, I hope, to agree. That is what most of those concerned really wanted.
  There is a second, perhaps more fundamental, point. It is right that the employers and the teacher unions should have the opportunity to negotiate agreements on pay and conditions. But there are other parties with legitimate interests—notably the Government and the taxpayers. The question of the weight to be attached to the various interests and of how those interests are to be reconciled in the context of new pay machinery, is serious and important.
  I am delighted to note that the hon. Member for Blackburn accepts that there is a role for the Government in setting teachers' pay. He recognises that there is a balance to be struck. Any responsible Government must recognise that. We believe that the Bill—the result of much consultation and reflection—does indeed get the balance right.
  It is interesting to note that neither the hon. Member for Blackburn nor the hon. Member for Leeds, Central even tried to discuss the core of the Bill, which concerns the machinery for setting pay levels. They did not put forward one serious or constructive suggestion about what they wanted to do. I challenge them to come forward with their proposals in Committee. We shall wait with interest to hear what they have to say.
  Most of the debate concentrated on clauses 8 and 9, which cover opting out. My hon. Friends the Members for Dartford (Mr. Dunn), for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) and for Hendon, South mentioned the advantages, and the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) mentioned the problems, which flow from clauses 8 and 9, covering opting out. LEAs and schools already have considerable flexibility to target payments selectively to tackle any local recruitment or retention difficulties, and to reward good teachers and those teachers who take on additional responsibility. That flexibility has increased significantly over the past few years and, as my right hon. and learned Friend said, it will be extended further when the January payment settlement date is reached.
  Let us be clear about one thing. Opting out has nothing to do with the volume of resources available to an LEA or a grant-maintained school, but a great deal to do with the allocation and better management of resources at local level. We have in place already a pay structure that gives wide flexibility to reward, recruit and retain. I am sure that the local authorities' negotiators will be looking to maintain and to extend that existing flexibility, but I firmly believe that individual LEAs, which must answer to parents and community charge payers for the effective delivery of the education service in their areas, must be able to go their own way if, and only if, they conclude that the national pay and conditions arrangements do not provide the framework they need.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: The Minister said that, under the Bill, local settlements would not affect the volume of resources. I cannot see why he believes that the national structure would do that anyway. It seems that the Government are setting the volume of resources in advance of national negotiations, so why is it necessary to maintain a ministerial veto, rather than a veto at local level?
  Mr. Eggar: A grant-maintained school has a clear budget and it has to look at alternative calls on that budget. Local education authorities are able to deploy resources at a local level. Therefore, it is right that the Government should have a reserve power for the national settlement. That power can be used only at the end of an extremely long process. There has to be a referral back and if that does not satisfy, it must be referred to the interim advisory committee, back to us and then to a negative resolution of the House.
  Opposition Members have uttered dire warnings about a future in which there are many different local and regional salary levels and pay structures. I believe firmly that individual local education authorities and grant-maintained schools are best placed to determine how best to respond to local needs and priorities. It may be that some of them will feel that the way forward is to opt out of the national arrangements altogether. They may feel that they should determine the pay and conditions of their teachers at local level. Even at this early stage, one or two local education authorities are thinking seriously about that. I have no doubt that they should be able to make that choice if they so wish.
  We are legislating for many years to come and need to provide for the long-term evolution of the system. It would be short-sighted to assume that the national system will always be sufficiently flexible to enable every local education authority and grant-maintained school to respond as it would wish in tackling its needs and difficulties. We have moved a long way over the past three years in devolving to local level decisions about the salaries of individual teachers. As my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) said, the proposals in the Bill are a natural extension of the process upon which we have already embarked.
  The hon. Member for Blackburn referred to the loss of teachers from the profession. He claimed that there was a wastage rate of four in every five teachers over a period of five years.
  Mr. Straw: No.
  Mr. Eggar: He said that only one in five teachers was teaching after five years.
  Mr. Straw: The Minister got it wrong. The figures do not come from me but from the Department of Education and Science. I said that, for every three entrants to teacher training, only one is left teaching five years after qualification.
  Mr. Eggar: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. He does not bother to check his facts. About 70 per cent. of those entering teaching are still in the profession five years later. Half of the 30 per cent. who are not teaching re-enter the profession at some stage after five years. Those are the facts that have been given to the hon. Gentleman in a briefing from my Department. If he cannot accept the facts, he has failed to do his homework.
  Mr. Straw rose——
  Mr. Eggar: I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman. He got his facts wrong in his speech and his intervention. He cannot accept the briefing from my Department and would rather accept advice from the unions.
  The hon. Member for Blackburn also said that some qualified teachers are not teaching now. They are in what
  832
  is known as the pit—the pool of inactive teachers. If the hon. Gentleman looks at those behind him, he will see that 57 of his hon. Friends are members of the pit and have decided for one reason or another that they do not wish to continue teaching. I am sure that my hon. Friends would welcome it if they returned to the classroom, as I am sure they will after the next election. I understand why the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr. Campbell) looks so worried. He must be concerned about the teaching standards that his hon. Friends would make available to children. I share his concern.
  I was interested to read about the proposals of the hon. Member for Leeds, Central to reform teacher training. It made fascinating reading. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. The hon. Member for Leeds, Central suggested that more practical classroom experience is needed. We are there already. I shall give the hon. Gentleman the opportuntiy to endorse the licensed teacher scheme that was introduced two years ago by willingly giving way to him. While he is about it, may I ask him also to endorse the articled teachers scheme that was introduced in September? Both schemes are based on practical classroom experience. That is exactly what he called for in his speech last weekend.
  Mr. Fatchett: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Eggar: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman in a minute.
  The Opposition suggest that there ought to be a national core curriculum for teacher training. I refer the hon. Member for Leeds, Central to our criteria for the approval of courses. They were laid down in 1984 and revised at the end of last year to take account of the national curriculum. Why does not he welcome our criteria for a core curriculum for teacher training? I hope that he will endorse it this evening.
  The hon. Gentleman also referred to what he called competence statements. I hope that he will take the opportunity to endorse the criteria that we laid down in 1984.
  Mr. Fatchett: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman spent so much time last weekend reading my speech. If he had read it in full, he would have recognised that the Opposition want agreed levels of competence to result from teacher training. The hon. Gentleman knows that licensed teachers do not possess agreed levels of competence.
  Mr. Eggar: The hon. Gentleman does not accept the logic of his own position. He says that teachers ought to have more classroom experience and then, for the umpteenth time, he rejects a scheme that is based entirely on classroom experience.
  The Opposition have had a great deal to say about resources. We ought, therefore, to look at the facts. During the past 10 years, funding per pupil has risen by —[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Eggar: The Opposition do not want to recognise the fact that during the past 10 years there has been an increase of over 40 per cent. in real terms on spending per pupil. There has been a 12 per cent. increase in the provision for secondary schools, a 17 per cent. increase in the provision for primary schools, a 20 per cent. Increase

  833
  in further education for adults, a 33 per cent. increase for additional special schools, a 58 per cent. increase in expenditure on the under-fives and, for teachers, a real-terms increase in pay of 30 per cent. Those are the facts about resources. The increases in resources are real —unlike the cheap words of the Opposition.
  Under the previous Labour Government, teachers' salaries rose by only 6 per cent. Moreover, under the previous Labour Government there was a positive reduction in education programmes. During the five years of the previous Labour Government, spending per pupil fell in real terms. Between 1976 and 1978, there was a 28 per cent. cut in real terms in expenditure on schools. We increased spending on teachers' salaries, and we were not ashamed of doing that.
  When the hon. Member for Blackburn speaks of extra resources for education, he adds a little caveat—as resources allow. By that, he means that he is making a series of confetti promises when he knows perfectly well that shadow Treasury spokesmen will not give him the resources. He will not fool the people. We want support for the Bill, and that is what we shall get.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 177, Noes 328.

  Division No. 12]

  [10 pm

  AYES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Allen, Graham

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

  Alton, David

  Dixon, Don

  Anderson, Donald

  Dobson, Frank

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Doran, Frank

  Armstrong, Hilary

  Eadie, Alexander

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Eastham, Ken

  Ashton, Joe

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Fatchett, Derek

  Barron, Kevin

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Battle, John

  Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

  Beckett, Margaret

  Fisher, Mark

  Beggs, Roy

  Flannery, Martin

  Bell, Stuart

  Flynn, Paul

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Benton, Joseph

  Foster, Derek

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Foulkes, George

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Fraser, John

  Blair, Tony

  Galloway, George

  Blunkett, David

  Garrett, John (Norwich South)

  Boateng, Paul

  Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

  Boyes, Roland

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Bradley, Keith

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Gould, Bryan

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

  Grocott, Bruce

  Buckley, George J.

  Hardy, Peter

  Caborn, Richard

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Callaghan, Jim

  Heal, Mrs Sylvia

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Hinchliffe, David

  Canavan, Dennis

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Home Robertson, John

  Clay, Bob

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Clelland, David

  Hoyle, Doug

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

  Coleman, Donald

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Illsley, Eric

  Cousins, Jim

  Ingram, Adam

  Cox, Tom

  Janner, Greville

  Crowther, Stan

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Cryer, Bob

  Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn)

  Cummings, John

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Lambie, David

  834

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

  Leighton, Ron

  Reid, Dr John

  Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

  Richardson, Jo

  Lewis, Terry

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Litherland, Robert

  Rooker, Jeff

  Livingstone, Ken

  Rooney, Terence

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Rowlands, Ted

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Ruddock, Joan

  Loyden, Eddie

  Sedgemore, Brian

  McCartney, Ian

  Sheerman, Barry

  Macdonald, Calum A.

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  McKelvey, William

  Short, Clare

  McLeish, Henry

  Skinner, Dennis

  Maginnis, Ken

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

  Marek, Dr John

  Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Snape, Peter

  Martlew, Eric

  Soley, Clive

  Meacher, Michael

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Meale, Alan

  Stott, Roger

  Michael, Alun

  Strang, Gavin

  Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

  Straw, Jack

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  Taylor, Mrs An0n (Dewsbury)

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis

  Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

  Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Turner, Dennis

  Mowlam, Marjorie

  Vaz, Keith

  Mullin, Chris

  Walley, Joan

  Murphy, Paul

  Warden, Gareth (Gower)

  Nellist, Dave

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

  O'Brien, William

  Wigley, Dafydd

  O'Hara, Edward

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan

  O'Neill, Martin

  Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Wilson, Brian

  Parry, Robert

  Winnick, David

  Pendry, Tom

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Pike, Peter L.

  Worthington, Tony

  Prescott, John

  Primarolo, Dawn

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. Martyn Jones.

  Randall, Stuart

  Redmond, Martin

  NOES

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Alexander, Richard

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Brazier, Julian

  Allason, Rupert

  Bright, Graham

  Amess, David

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Amos, Alan

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Arbuthnot, James

  Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Arnold, Sir Thomas

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Ashby, David

  Burns, Simon

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Burt, Alistair

  Atkins, Robert

  Butcher, John

  Atkinson, David

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

  Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

  Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

  Carrington, Matthew

  Batiste, Spencer

  Carttiss, Michael

  Beith, A. J.

  Cartwright, John

  Bellingham, Henry

  Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

  Bellotti, David

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Bendall, Vivian

  Chapman, Sydney

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Chope, Christopher

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Churchill, Mr

  Blackburn, Dr John G.

  Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

  Body, Sir Richard

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Colvin, Michael

  Boswell, Tim

  Conway, Derek

  Bottomley, Peter

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Cope, Rt Hon John

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Bowis, John

  Couchman, James

  835

  Cran, James

  Howard, Rt Hon Michael

  Critchley, Julian

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Day, Stephen

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Devlin, Tim

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Dicks, Terry

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Hunter, Andrew

  Dover, Den

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Dunn, Bob

  Irvine, Michael

  Durant, Tony

  Irving, Sir Charles

  Eggar, Tim

  Jack, Michael

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Janman, Tim

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Jessel, Toby

  Evennett, David

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Fallon, Michael

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Favell, Tony

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Fishburn, John Dudley

  Key, Robert

  Fookes, Dame Janet

  Kilfedder, James

  Forman, Nigel

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

  Forth, Eric

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Fox, Sir Marcus

  Knapman, Roger

  Franks, Cecil

  Knight, Greg (Derby North)

  Freeman, Roger

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  French, Douglas

  Knowles, Michael

  Fry, Peter

  Knox, David

  Gale, Roger

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Gardiner, George

  Lang, Ian

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Latham, Michael

  Gill, Christopher

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Lee, John (Pendle)

  Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Lilley, Peter

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Gorst, John

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Luce, Rt Hon Richard

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Macfarlane, Sir Neil

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

  Grist, Ian

  Maclean, David

  Ground, Patrick

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Grylls, Michael

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

  Madel, David

  Hague, William

  Major, Rt Hon John

  Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)

  Malins, Humfrey

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Mans, Keith

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Maples, John

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Marlow, Tony

  Hannam, John

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Harris, David

  Mates, Michael

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Hayes, Jerry

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Hayward, Robert

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Miller, Sir Hal

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Mills, Iain

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Mitchell, Sir David

  Hill, James

  Moate, Roger

  Hind, Kenneth

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  836

  Moore, Rt Hon John

  Speller, Tony

  Morris, M (N'hampton S)

  Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

  Morrison, Sir Charles

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)

  Squire, Robin

  Moss, Malcolm

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Mudd, David

  Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

  Neale, Gerrard

  Steen, Anthony

  Nelson, Anthony

  Stern, Michael

  Newton, Rt Hon Tony

  Stevens, Lewis

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

  Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

  Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

  Norris, Steve

  Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N)

  Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

  Stokes, Sir John

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Sumberg, David

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Summerson, Hugo

  Page, Richard

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Paice, James

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Patnick, Irvine

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Patten, Rt Hon John

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Pawsey, James

  Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

  Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Portillo, Michael

  Thurnham, Peter

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Price, Sir David

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Raffan, Keith

  Tracey, Richard

  Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

  Tredinnick, David

  Redwood, John

  Trippier, David

  Renton, Rt Hon Tim

  Trotter, Neville

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Riddick, Graham

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Viggers, Peter

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Walden, George

  Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)

  Walker, Bill (T'side North)

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Wallace, James

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Waller, Gary

  Rost, Peter

  Walters, Sir Dennis

  Rowe, Andrew

  Ward, John

  Rumbold, Mrs Angela

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Ryder, Richard

  Warren, Kenneth

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Watts, John

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Whitney, Ray

  Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Widdecombe, Ann

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Wilkinson, John

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Wilshire, David

  Shelton, Sir William

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Shephard, Mrs G, (Norfolk SW)

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  Wolfson, Mark

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Wood, Timothy

  Shersby, Michael

  Woodcock, Dr. Mike

  Sims, Roger

  Yeo, Tim

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Younger, Rt Hon George

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Sir George Young and Mr. David Lighbown.

  Speed, Keith

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 60 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading), and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 61 (Committal of Bills).

  School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Bill [Money]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any expenses of the Secretary of State under that Act, and

  (b) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums so payable under any other Act.—[Mr. Fallon.]

  10.16 pm
  Mr. Bob Cryer: I am sure that the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) is being pressed to depart from the Chamber because he must want to know that the money is under close scrutiny. After all, under the Tory Government, he has been responsible for cuts ever since he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
  The money resolution uses a curious form of words. It authorises any increase in expenditure
  "attributable to that Act"
  that is, the School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Bill—
  "in the sums so payable under any other Act."
  That is a broad form of words. Why does the Secretary of State not rely simply on the authority granted by section 79 of the Education Reform Act 1988, which applies to teachers' pay and under which, through negotiations under the School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Bill, he is authorised to increase expenditure? As the main source is listed under the financial effects of the Bill, why should the resolution refer to "any other Act"?
  What other legislation do the Government have in mind which will be covered by the resolution? The words of the resolution are broad, so we are giving carte blanche to the Government to apply expenditure to any other Act that they may desire to introduce. Perhaps they already have in mind a list of Acts to which the resolution could apply. In that case, they should have listed such legislation in the financial effects of the Bill. That would be a useful explanation to place on the record.
  Secondly, schedule 3(3) lists the sorts of expenditure that the Secretary of State is authorised to pay over to the chairman, deputy chairman and members of the advisory committee. The financial memorandum to the Bill makes it clear that the cost of the committee will be offset by disbanding the interim advisory committee. I asked earlier whether the Secretary of State had in mind any increases in the pay and improvements in the conditions of the new committee. If there are significant differences between the money paid to teachers and the payments made to the advisory committee, teachers will be affronted. They are dissatisfied with their pay, not least because it has been removed from a decent pay bargaining framework such as that recommended by the International Labour Organisation, which is affiliated to the United Nations.
  We need to know what these people will be paid and what hours they will be expected to work each week. That will give teachers a useful basis for comparison. If the
  838
  payments are large, the advisory committee will not be independent, because it will be under an obligation to its paymaster in the form of the Secretary of State. The money resolution authorises the Secretary of State to determine those levels of pay, and the House should know what they will be. We should not have to find that information out from press leaks because it has been determined in secret.
  The legislation places the negotiations on and recommendations for teachers' pay in the public arena. Everyone will know what the teachers are paid, so we should also know what the advisory committee will be paid.
  Naturally, the Minister is a little excited and nervous because he does not know whether he will be a Minister after tonight. I take the view that the right hon. Member for Huntingdon is not clever enough to get rid of him, but one never knows. The Minister of State, who wound up the debate on Second Reading, did not reply to my earlier question, so I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will reply to it now.
  10.22 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Michael Fallon): I hope to be able to satisfy my right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) as well as the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer). The hon. Gentleman mentioned two points which were central to the resolution, so it may be helpful if I explain what the resolution does. First, the expenses of the Secretary of State are simply those concerned with the operation of the advisory committee—the cost of its secretariat, its incidental expenses, any payments made to the chairman or members, and the publication of its report. Neither the chairman nor the members of the committee will be paid —they will receive expenses only, although the chairman may receive a fee per diem.
  The advisory committee is likely to cost somewhat less than the interim advisory committee which it replaces because it has a narrower remit and a shorter period in which to report, and it is likely to pay fewer visits to schools.
  Mr. Cryer: The Minister said that the Committee members will be paid nothing but expenses, and that is welcome. He also said that the chair and deputy chair will be paid a daily fee. What sort of fee does he have in mind?
  Mr. Fallon: The same sort of per diem fee as applies to the interim advisory committee—there is no difference.
  The second leg of the money resolution is required under procedures of the House because changes in teachers' pay arising from the new machinery will give rise to increases in local authority expenditure. It also covers the Secretary of State's grant to grant-maintained schools, which provides for all their expenses, including the pay of their teachers. I hope that the hon. Member for Bradford, South will be content with that reply and I commend the resolution to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.

  Teachers' Pay and Conditions
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That the draft Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987 (Continuation) Order 1990, which was laid before this House on 15th November, be approved.—[Mr. Eggar]
  10.25 pm
  Ms. Hilary Armstrong: I suppose it's a funny old world. We have witnessed yet another circus act on the Government Benches, with a new Prime Minister in waiting who must be wondering tonight how he can reconcile his statements as Chancellor of the Exchequer with his commitments over the weekend as a candidate for the position of Prime Minister.
  I am quite confident that the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) will turn his back on those promises and forget about them. One of his commitments was about raising teacher morale, which is important. However, he has been a member of a Government who have denied teachers the right to negotiate their salaries and conditions.
  We are here tonight because of that denial of basic rights and opportunities. It is a denial of a right that is allowed to all other local authority personnel, to central Government personnel and even to people at GCHQ.
  This is not an abstract point. People in staff rooms around the country feel excluded from having any role in constructing their own working conditions. Hon. Members in this place and even members of the Government would not tolerate that, as was reflected in the way in which Conservative Members behaved over the past few days.
  The point is mirrored for teachers by a wide range of other experiences, including a lack of consultation over the national curriculum, over testing and over the whole paraphernalia of the Education Reform Act 1988. The Government constructed that Act so that it would not involve teachers, and the education service is reaping the whirlwind that the Act brought with it. We must now adapt to many of the issues in the Education Reform Act in the way that was predicted precisely because the Government refused to consult and negotiate with teachers.
  We are being asked tonight to agree to an order which is directly responsible for low morale. Those who support the order are directly responsible for pushing down morale and for keeping it low. When the 1988 Act was introduced, the Government said that it would be temporary. We are told that a week is a long time in politics, but teachers in the staff rooms have had four years of the Act, and that seems like an eternity.
  The 1988 Act has in no sense been temporary. This order seeks to continue something which no one would consider to be temporary. When the 1988 Act was passed, it was said that it would be replaced by an Act that had consent. We have spent today discussing that, and it must be clear to anyone, particularly from the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South-East (Mr. Turner), that the new School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Bill does not have consent. The Government have not been able to achieve consent, because no one believes that the Government believe in consent. The Government have demonstrated powerfully that they are completely unable to negotiate. The interim
  840
  advisory committee, introduced by the 1987 Act, has produced some interesting and useful reports, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) said. But, even in responding to those reports, the Government's history has been abysmal.
  The first IAC report in April 1988 exceeded the Secretary of State's cost limit by 6 per cent., the Government refused to fund the difference and the local education authorities had to find the extra money. The first IAC report rejected regional variations and salary differentials for teachers of subjects with staff shortages. Today, the Government made clear what they thought of that IAC recommendation.
  In the second report in February 1989, the settlement was £80 million above the remit of £350 million. Again, the Government refused to meet the shortfall, £25 million was met by savings in teachers' pension funds and the rest, yet again, had to be found by local education authorities.
  The third report, in 1990, again recommended a settlement above the Government's remit—£133 million. Again, the Government ducked their responsibility and refused to meet the settlement agreed by the IAC. Instead, they decided on a phased increase, which meant that, rather than an increase of 9·3 per cent., teachers had to make do with an increase of 7·1 per cent.
  I need hardly remind the House that, despite the magician-like qualities of the right hon. Member for Huntingdon, inflation is 10·9 per cent. The figures speak for themselves. I hope that, as someone who is used to dealing with figures, he will look at the figures and try to reconcile the contradictions within them, because it is not we who suffer from those contradictions and differences, but the children in the schools.
  In the remit to the IAC in September, the previous Secretary of State—I hope that I do not have to say that again next week—did not give a limit of settlement to the committee. He directed that the cost of its recommendations should fall within the interquartile range of private sector, non-manual settlements. But there is one overriding question, which the previous Secretary of State and the present one have not yet answered: will the Government fully fund the settlement that arises from the remit that they have given this year's IAC? That is critical —the Government have cash-limited the amount that local authorities can spend.
  Despite the arguments between us and the fact that some Conservative Members are unhappy to accept it, we all know that teacher morale is low. As a survey in tonight's edition of the Evening Standard shows, 16,000 teachers in London have left during the past two months. The fed-up teachers blame the exodus on poor pay and low status. The Government must address that issue. They have a responsibility tonight to assure us that they will fully fund any recommendation from the IAC.
  I have outlined the Government's dismal record to date. There has been much discussion today about teacher morale. The 1990 IAC report said:
  "Any profession would be justifiably proud of the level of commitment on the part of the teachers we have met during our school visits in all three years. However, commitment cannot by itself guarantee the success of the current reforms. It needs to be underpinned by far higher morale than we have found."
  The IAC recognises that the commitments that it made and the promises that it tried to elicit from the Secretary

  841
  of State would not solve the whole problem. But it t nought that it was critical that any future pay settlement must be recognised by the Secretary of State and must be funded.
  Other Members have spoken of teacher morale. It is not a political point to be thrown across the Chamber. I have to deal with that issue every time I go into a school. I do not try to put teachers down: far too many members of my family and friends are teachers and I value their health as much as I value my own. Last week, the Health and Safety Commission said that teachers probably suffer more stress than people in any other profession. I beg the Secretary of State to take the issue much more seriously than he appears to be prepared to do.
  The order continues the work of the IAC. We are debating yet another order, even though, year after year, Secretaries of State have told us that we were debating the last one, and that matters would be sorted out. The Bill rejects many of the main tenets of the IAC reports. The IAC has agreed that a basic necessity is a basic national pay level with local variations, where necessary, on top of the basic amount. For the first time since the war, the Bill will change the whole basis of negotiations. We are being asked to continue the work of a body, one of whose major recommendations has just been rejected by the House.
  Several hon. Members spoke about the International Labour Organisation. There is no doubt that the ILO utterly rejected the Government's view as contained in the 1987 Act. Its committee of experts said that the Act was in breach of article 4 of convention 98 on voluntary negotiation, and called upon the Government to modify the legislation to make voluntary negotiations possible. The Government have not modified the Act through the order, and we are being asked yet again to renew the order.
  Sometimes the Government admit that teacher morale is low, but that admission depends on which Minister is speaking. They have denied teachers the rights given to other people. The Labour party has been talking about teacher morale for some time, not in order to lower it but to get it recognised. The Government are exploiting the commitment of teachers. Teachers have an enormous commitment to the job and to their children and they deserve our support and recognition. Teachers will soon know what the new Cabinet thinks of them and will see whether the new Prime Minister and his Cabinet are prepared to meet the demands in the IAC report. The Government should at last be prepared to recognise and value teachers with a worthwhile pay settlement.
  10.38 pm
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: I do not propose to delay the House because, like many hon. Members, I have already spent more than enough time debating education. All hon. Members must he bitterly disappointed at having to debate the order at all. Everybody wanted matters to move forward more quickly, so that proper pay machinery could be put in place earlier. Liberal Democrats predicted that we would be in the position that we are now in, even though Ministers argued otherwise. That has a certain inevitability about it.
  I hope that the Minister will address some specific issues. First, I hope that he will outline the basis arid remit within which the IAC will make its decision this year. That is important, given the teacher shortages, the problems
  842
  with morale and the other difficulties referred to in the earlier debate. We need to know to what extent the IAC is being asked to look at that matter this year.
  Secondly, there is the question of full funding or otherwise, which has already been raised. Perhaps the Minister could give the House a clear statement about the Government's commitment to meet the cost of the settlement that may be reached as a result of the IAC's deliberations.
  Thirdly—this is also important—last year, the IAC made a recommendation that the government effectively rejected by deciding to phase the implementation instead of introducing it according to the recommendation. The result is the vast cuts in teachers' salaries against inflation during the three years of the IAC's recommendations. Do the Government intend to see a settlement—would they be prepared to see a settlement—that at least matches inflation and ensures that teachers' salaries are restored to their proper level according to the IAC, so that, when the new machinery that we debated earlier is implemented, we do not immediately have to make up for the Government's meanness in the past two or three years?
  Finally, since a new Prime Minister will take office tomorrow, who is committed to a thorough review of teachers' salaries, do the Government intend that any account of that commitment should be taken in these deliberations? Have the Government already set in stone what the IAC will do this year or, if the Prime Minister does indeed seek a thorough review of teachers' salaries, will it be possible for any account of that to be taken in the settlement?
  10.41 pm
  The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Tim Eggar): I shall try to reply to the points raised by the hon. Members for Durham, North-West (Ms. Armstrong) and for Truro (Mr. Taylor). I am delighted that the atmosphere now is slightly less frenetic than 43 minutes ago. I hope that the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore) is now tucked up safely in bed.
  The interim advisory committee has been asked to build on the far-reaching improvements it recommended last year. The remit balances market forces against affordability. This is consistent with the Government's approach to pay across the board. It also acknowledges the need to continue improving teacher supply in areas where vacancy rates are a particular cause for concern, notably London and, as many of my hon. Friends said earlier, across the south-east. We have never sought to disguise the fact that there are shortages in certain subjects, as well as in some geographical areas.
  The committee has been directed that the cost of its recommendations must fall within the inter-quartile range of non-manual pay settlements in the 12 months to November 1990. This constraint is the same as that which already applies to civil servants and will also have a role in the new permanent negotiating machinery that will be set up under the Bill, the Second Reading of which has just received such overwhelming support in the House. Incidentally, I thank the hon. Member for Truro and his hon. Friends for their support.

  843
  It is, of course, for the committee to decide what to recommend within that remit, taking account of what the local authorities can afford, but it allows for a very fair settlement to be reached——
  Mr. Jack Straw rose——
  Mr. Eggar: I believe in a relaxed style at the Dispatch Box, but at 10.43 pm, after the debate that we have just had and after the week that we have all had, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for not giving way to him. I shall be delighted, however——
  Mr. Straw: It is only a simple question.
  Mr. Eggar: That is exactly what I feared. I know my limitations.
  We believe that the Bill allows for a fair settlement for teachers. The remit given to the IAC is, by definition, very fair, and the Government expect it to work within that remit. Of course, education standard spending includes an appropriate allowance to meet any considerations within that remit.
  The Government believe that flexible pay systems, which allow the targeting of additional payments to meet specific needs, are the most cost-effective way of addressing any problem of recruitment and retention. The committee's remit for 1991–92 invites it to consider whether local flexibilities should be developed still further. Hon. Members referred to that point. The committee is currently considering evidence from interested parties. My right hon. and learned Friend has asked to receive its report by 18 January.
  This time next year, the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987 will have been repealed. In the meantime, however, we need this order to extend the life of the Act beyond 31 March 1991, so as to pay teachers an increase next year. I commend it to the House and ask that it be approved.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Ordered,
  That the draft Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987 (Continuation) Order 1990, which was laid before this House on 15th November, be approved.

  Pharmaceutical Companies (Profits)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Neil Hamilton.]
  10.45 pm
  Mr. Andrew Hunter: Humility forces me to concede that other political developments today somewhat overshadow this debate. Nevertheless, I welcome the opportunity to introduce a brief debate on the predicament in which the United Kingdom pharmaceutical industry finds itself, with particular emphasis on its profitability and its importance.
  My hon. Friend the Minister needs no reminding of the importance of the pharmaceutical industry. First, it is the source of products which alleviate human suffering. Secondly, in commercial terms it acts as a magnet for inward investment into the United Kingdom. Thirdly, it is a provider of employment. Indeed, in the 1970s and 1980s employment in the industry rose dramatically. Fourthly, the industry is an essential dimension to the scientific infrastructure of the United Kingdom. That is the nub of the matter.
  Research is the lifeblood of the pharmaceutical industry, but there can be no research unless there is a sufficient level of profitability. There cannot be a healthy pharmaceutical industry in the United Kingdom unless research is taking place in the United Kingdom. That is why I sought a debate on the profitability of the industry.
  I am sure that my hon. Friend will have no doubts about the importance of the industry. Recently, it was described by Lord Walton of Detchant as
  "the jewel in our industrial crown."
  I remind my hon. Friend that three of the best-selling medicines in the world, and seven of the top 20, are British in origin and development. The United Kingdom has a better record in pharmaceutical innovation than any other country. The top 50 products in the world represent just under half the total prescription medicines market. Of those, 27·6 per cent. originate from the United Kingdom, which is more than the total figure of 29·8 per cent. for the rest of Europe. The United States figure is also 29·8 per cent. That is a magnificent record.
  It is worth stressing that the United Kingdom pharmaceutical industry provides an export surplus of more than £1 billion per year, compared with a projected national deficit of £15 billion this year and £11·5 billion next year.
  In a wide range of medical conditions, the discovery of new or improved medicines would alleviate much human misery—not least the two killers in developed countries. I refer to heart disease and cancer, which alone kill more people in the United Kingdom than any other group of ailments—nearly one third of a million people every year.
  Advances in research cannot be made without the profitability to finance research. Only more investment in research and development will help to find new and better treatments, but the costs of that investment are escalating and the returns for innovative companies are diminishing.
  Most important of all for a thriving United Kingdom pharmaceutical industry is patent term restoration—that is, effective patent protection. The 1989 Touche Ross report concluded that, between 1960 and 1986, effective patent life was eroded from 12 years to around six years. I acknowledge that those are average figures and that there

  845
  is considerable variation around the mean. Nevertheless, that degree of erosion over 25 years gives great cause for concern.
  The ranges for other major European countries are somewhat higher, but the same downward trend is evident, though it is greater in the United Kingdom than elsewhere in Europe. My hon. Friend the Minister will be aware of the European Commission's draft regulation, which proposes an effective patent life of 16 years by the granting of "complementary protection certificates." That term was arrived at after careful consideration, and its authors maintain that it strikes the right balance. There is a great discrepancy between that proposed provision and current United Kingdom practice.
  In the case of treatments for medical conditions such as multiple sclerosis, which are characterised by long periods of remission and which would therefore require longer periods of evaluation, there could still be no hope of bringing a product to market while any effective patent protection remained. In meeting that and similar situations, the EC directive is ineffective and United Kingdom practice is even more defective.
  In the case of the more complex products of biotechnology, one can foresee a much longer product registration approval process. Where the approval process exceeded the life of the patent, no effective patent life would be left.
  It may be argued that the Government, while accepting that some action needs to be taken, seem to believe that a patent term of 13 or 14 years would be appropriate. If I am mistaken, the Government have an opportunity, through my hon. Friend the Minister, to correct a false impression. Meanwhile, France and Italy, for example, are proposing a 17-year period, the United Kingdom 13 or 14 years, and the EC 16 years. While such trends persist, the United Kingdom pharmaceutical industry will continue to be at a disadvantage by comparison with its major competitors.
  My hon. Friend the Minister will be aware that Dr. Heinz Redwood, a noted health economist, recently stated:
  "The purpose of patent restoration in the 1990s is not to save a relatively prosperous industry from failure but to underpin its resolve and to take a massive scientific and financial risk, in order to produce new drugs which society needs in order to cope with serious gaps in therapy."
  With regard to generics and to patent term extension,
  the profitability of the industry in the United Kingdom has arguably been further threatened by the Government's encouragement of generic prescribing and parallel imports. One reason advanced against supporting the EC regulation is that it would blunt the generic initiative, and prices would rise rapidly. As I shall demonstrate, however, there is little evidence to support that view.
  First, let us consider the position in which the pharmaceutical industry now finds itself. On the one hand, it is a research-based industry with an average effective patent life of approximately six years, which is entirely unacceptable. On the other hand, the Government are advocating generic prescribing and the use of the products of the generic industry. The indicative prescribing scheme was the re-writing of working paper IV of the White Paper. There, the Government set out to recommend generic prescribing and to allay any concerns about it. That is a questionable thesis in its own right, but it is profoundly worrying in its implications for the pharmaceutical industry.
  846
  Dr. Redwood has developed a hypothetical model, which calculates the effects of the EC proposals on the top 100 medicines. Between 1990 and 1996, the annual extra cost would be a mere £.10·2 million at 1988 prices—not a significant debit, other points considered. In any case, the recent NHS reforms, and the pharmaceutical price regulation scheme will control pricing. I hope that my hon. Friend will acknowledge that generic extension is in itself no El Dorado.
  With regard to the profitability of the industry, the price control regime has been almost too effective. The return on capital employed on sales to the NHS by the industry has reduced from 16 per cent. in 1986 to about 7 per cent.—an unsatisfactory state of affairs. To take just two comparisons, the return on oil and gas investment has reduced over the same period from 28 per cent. to 16 per cent. while that of food retailing remains at about 22 per cent. My hon. Friend seems to disagree—I look forward to hearing his comments, but I believe that with the NHS as a major consumer, return on investment for the pharmaceutical industry is arguably inadequate.
  As a result of the flexible and encouraging policies pursued during the 1970s and 1980s, the United Kingdom is host to the international pharmaceutical industry. It has been encouraging to see United States and European companies expand manufacturing and research facilities in the United Kingdom, providing high quality jobs and supporting an already strong scientific infrastructure.
  Parent boards of such foreign multinationals are now beginning to have second thoughts about investment in the 1990s. We have a less favourable attitude to patent term extension. We have a history of adverse legislation—the limited list of 1984, indicative prescribing in 1990, some concern about the workings of pharmaceutical price regulation, and a generics industry endorsed and encouraged by the Government. We have decreasing profitability. Faced with those issues, and the welcome attitude being displayed in France, Germany and Italy, to name but three countries, the future of pharmaceutical industry investment in the United Kingdom must now be in doubt.
  If we are to retain our lead in pharmaceutical invention, I urge my hon. Friend to review his position on patent term extension before the European Council of Ministers makes its final decision on the proposals. I urge him to bear in mind the points that I have tried to make. The United Kingdom pharmaceutical industry is not a lame duck but a bird in flight. The question is whether the Government should inadvertently shoot it down.
  10.59 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) on having the opportunity to introduce the first Adjournment debate of the new era. It shows his impeccable sense of timing. He has brought to the attention of the House an issue of considerable importance to his constituents and the country. The issue is close to my heart, for in my constituency of Loughborough are based two major British pharmaceutical companies—Fisons and Riker—and I do not need to be reminded of the importance of the industry as a key supplier to the national health service and as a major employer and wealth creator for the British economy.

  847
  My hon. Friend talked of the "predicament" of the pharmaceutical industry. That is not the word that I would use. As he was at pains to make clear, the British pharmaceutical industry has behind it an almost unrivalled history of success in terms of its capacity to generate new products, wealth and jobs. It was one of the cornerstones of the success of the British economy during the 1980s. My constituency interest in the future of the industry merely adds to my belief and recognition from a Government perspective of the importance of the industry in our total industrial effort.
  To illustrate the scale of the industry's success, I can add some statistics to those given by my hon. Friend. The United Kingdom is fifth in the world in terms of the scale of pharmaceutical production. The sales of the British pharmaceutical industry amount to about £5 billion a year, of which £2 billion is exported. The industry employs about 70,000 people directly, never mind those who have jobs as a result of its success. Those employees are substantially better paid than the average employee in British industry. Therefore, it is not merely an employer of labour but an employer of high-paid labour.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke was at pains to point out, the industry has a tremendous record in terms of its spend on research and development. A total of 14 per cent. of the entire world spend on pharmaceutical research and development takes place in these islands. My hon. Friend was too modest in his claim that seven of the world's 20 best selling medicines are based on United Kingdom research. I am advised the figure is eight, including the world's No. 1 pharmaceutical product—Zantac—which is a product of Glaxo.
  By any definition, the British pharmaceutical industry is not in a "predicament". It is a world-beating industry, setting a pace and performance target that few other industries in this country or elsewhere can match. It is a tremendous success story. As a Minister with a key interest in the industry as a customer and as a representative of a constituency in which it is an important employer, I have asked what circumstances made that success possible. It is clearly in the interests of us all that those circumstances should continue, so that the success story can be maintained.
  In considering what made it possible, one thing is clear. That did not happen because of the benign good will of a few civil servants in Whitehall. it is no thanks to the outdated ideas of industrial sponsorship in Whitehall Departments that we have a successful pharmaceutical industry. Its success is based upon high quality management and entrepreneurial decision taking by people in the industry, making the right decisions about the allocation of resources. It is a success story for British management, not a success story for British politicians.
  That is the key factor that marked the industry out for success, but the Government cannot close their mind to the fact that the national health service is the largest single customer of the British pharmaceutical industry. As a customer, the Government have an important interest in ensuring its continued strength. Only if the industry continues to be strong can we expect it to continue to undertake the research that is necessary to ensure that British pharmaceutical technology continues to develop and to break new frontiers.
  848
  The Government are also properly concerned about the wider implications of the success of the industry for employment and wealth creation. As responsible purchasers from the pharmaceutical industry, just as Marks and Spencer is interested to ensure that its suppliers are vigorous, strong and able to continue to supply its needs next year as well as this year, so also are the Government keen to ensure that the right context exists for the continued success of the British pharmaceutical industry, both because we rely on its strength to supply the needs of the national health service and also because we want to ensure that its wealth-creating skills continue to underwrite the success of that part of the British economy.
  What are the key ingredients that have made that success possible? A fair slice of my hon. Friend's speech was devoted to the importance of patent protection for new pharmaceutical products, based on investment in research. The Government share my hon. Friend's recognition that proper patent protection is a vital defence for an innovative industry. There are few industries with a record of innovation to match that of the pharmaceutical industry.
  I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of ensuring that there is in place a proper patent protection system that recognises the balance that must be struck between the interests of a pharmaceutical company to protect its right to use the fruits of its own research and the interests of the customer in not having to pay for the same research three, four or five times over.
  My hon. Friend will be aware that there have already been changes during the last 15 years to the scale of protection available under patent law. The Patent Act 1977 extended the basic life of a patent under British law from 16 to 20 years. The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 abolished the concept of product licences as of right. That was an important change in our patent law.
  I agree with my hon. Friend that we should recognise the importance of the distinction in patent law between the basic life of a patent from the time that a new compound or new active ingredient is patented—the beginning of the testing process—and the protected market life of the final product, once it is accepted for use as a medicine. That difference arises because of the time that it takes to test and gain approval for a new compound. The amount of patent life that is available to the company during which to exploit the product in the marketplace can be a relatively small proportion of the total length of life of patent protection. That subject was research last year by Touche Ross.
  We recognise that that phenomenon exists, and that to talk of a patent life of 20 years does not mean that products are available in the marketplace for 20 years. It is important to assess the protected market life, as well as the total patent life, and to ask whether the protected market life of a new product is becoming shorter. The Touche Ross report, to which my hon. Friend referred, made a contribution to that debate, but our consideration of the issue is continuing and I am not in a position to give him the conclusions that we have drawn.
  We must not forget the other side of the coin: just as it is not true to say that, the moment that a patent is taken out, a product is available for use in the marketplace, so it is not true to say that, the moment that a patent runs out, the company can no longer exploit the product in the marketplace. There is a considerable wash-on period

  849
  beyond the life of patent protection, during which a company can continue commercially to exploit the results of its research.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke rightly said that those issues must be addressed in the domestic context and particularly in the context of the Commission's proposals. We are still considering exactly what response we should make, and we shall certainly bear in mind the points that he made.
  My hon. Friend touched briefly on the operation of the pharmaceutical price regulation scheme, which I know from constituency experience to be of continuing concern to those charged with operating British pharmaceutical companies. My hon. Friend, and most people in the sector, will recognise that some rules on the exploitation of monopoly products are inevitable. The industry recognises that some rules are inevitable and that they work to its advantage, because it has signed the PPRS, which is a voluntary agreement between the industry and the Government, who represent the national health service, the largest single customer of the industry.
  The PPRS is based on the proposition that it is not sensible to try to cost each product in each form of delivery, but more sensible to base our agreement on the concept of return on investment achieved by a pharmaceutical company in the supply of goods to the national health service. My hon. Friend quoted a return on investment of 7 per cent., which is not the figure by which we work. The target returns by which we work under the PPRS are between 17 and 21 per cent., which my hon. Friend will not regard as comparing too badly with the other industries that he used by way of comparison.
  We recognise that, if we want to maintain a viable,
  850
  strong and successful industry, we must ensure that those who operate within it can secure a reasonable market rate of return on their investments in the industry, which is why the targets are fixed that level. From my previous experience in industry, I know that they are not unrealistic rates of return to fix in a relatively secure market. One must remember that, over and above those rates is the grey area, whereby a company can keep up to 50 per cent. over its target profit if it can demonstrate that that extra profit was generated as a result of specific and identifiable productivity gains in the supply and production of a range of products.
  My hon. Friend, if I may say so, exaggerated the extent to which the PPRS makes the production and sale of pharmaceutical products to the national health service an uneconomic business proposition. I do not doubt for one moment that we apply downward pressure on prices through the PPRS—that is its precise purpose—but it is a realistic scheme that allows a successful industry to make a realistic return on the investment made in the production and sale of pharmaceutical products.
  The most important factor is that the Government must recognise that there is potential and limitation in their position. We shall be a responsible, informed purchaser of pharmaceutical products. We want our suppliers of pharmaceutical products to be viable, successful companies tomorrow. We want this vital British industry to continue its record of success into the future. We know that primary responsibility for that must rest with its management. Our role is that of the responsible purchaser, and we shall seek to continue to discharge it.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at fifteen minutes past Eleven.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Anti-Jewish Literature
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Attorney-General how many proceedings have been initiated by the Crown prosecution service in respect of the publishers and distributors of anti-Jewish literature from 1987 until the present; and what was the outcome in each case.

  The Attorney-General
  I refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to the answer I gave on 13 November, at column 88.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Asylum
  Mr. Cartwright
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applicants for political asylum in the United Kingdom are currently awaiting a decision; and how many of these have been waiting for over 12 months.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  It is provisionally estimated that about 27,800 asylum applications were awaiting a decision in the United Kingdom at 30 September 1990, of which about 8,400 had been outstanding for 12 months or more. However these figures are maxima which overstate the position, because of under-recording of decisions made earlier.

  Total number of defendants found guilty for specific offences involving children Wales 1985 to 1989

  Total found guilty

  Offence

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  Violence against the person

  Murder of infant under 1 year of age

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Infanticide

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  Child destruction

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Cruelty to, or neglect of, children

  12

  9

  24

  25

  17

  Abandoning child aged under 2 years

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Child abduction

  1

  1

  2

  3

  2

  Sexual offences

  Buggery with a boy under the age of 16 or with a woman or an animal

  3

  9

  11

  13

  6

  Attempt to commit buggery with a boy under the age of 16 or with a woman or an animal

  —

  2

  1

  2

  —

  Indecent assault on a male aged under 16 years

  25

  20

  19

  13

  22

  Indecent assault on a female aged under 16 years

  81

  69

  80

  87

  87

  Unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl aged under 13

  9

  6

  7

  8

  4

  Unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl aged under 16

  29

  19

  22

  21

  15

  Incest with girl under 13

  5

  4

  4

  5

  7

  Inciting girl aged under 16 to have incestuous sexual intercourse

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  Householder permitting unlawful sexual intercourse with girl aged under 16 years

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  Person responsible for girl aged under 16 causing or encouraging her prostitution, etc.

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Abduction of unmarried girl aged under 16

  —

  —

  1

  —

  2

  Gross indecency with children

  14

  9

  14

  14

  14

  330
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Dublin convention determining the state responsibility for examining applications for asylum lodged in one of the member states of the European Community will be ratified in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The convention determining the state responsible for examining applications for asylum was signed in Dublin in June by 11 members of the European Community. The ratification process must await a decision by the 12th member, Denmark, on whether to sign the convention.

  Postal Voting
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he proposes to introduce the changes regarding postal voting controls in the Representation of the People Act 1990.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  We propose as soon as possible to make a commencement order to bring the Representation of the People Act 1990 into force. In order for the Act to take effect, it will also be necessary to make some minor amendments to the Representation of the People Regulations 1986 and the European Parliamentary Elections Regulations 1986 and to make an Order in Council in respect of local elections in Northern Ireland.

  Child Abuse
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will publish in the Official Report the number of successful prosecutions for child abuse in Wales for each of the last five years.

  Mr. John Patten
  The available information is given in the table. It is possible from the information held centrally to identify only offences where the victim is by definition aged under 16: children may also have been the victims of other offences, such as murder, that are not defined by reference to the victim's age.
  331

  Total found guilty

  Offence

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  Summary offences

  Violence against the person

  Cruelty to, or neglect of, children

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Animal Experiments
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now implement article 24 of European Community directive 86/609/EC to render illegal the use of former track greyhounds in laboratory experiments.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  At the moment, the only type of dog bred on any scale for scientific procedures is the beagle. In the absence of other types of purpose-bred dogs for use in research, it will remain necessary to grant some exemptions, all of which have to be fully justified scientifically, to the requirement in section 10(3) of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 that only those dogs specially bred at and obtained from designated sources may be used in scientific procedures.

  Care is, however, taken to ensure that greyhounds obtained from non-designated sources are neither pets nor ex-racing greyhounds which have been supplied to charitable bodies for rehoming as pets.

  Commonwealth Citizens (Voting Rights)
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list those Commonwealth countries the citizens of which, resident in the United Kingdom, are eligible to vote in United Kingdom elections.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Citizens of all Commonwealth countries, who are resident in the United Kingdom and who are not otherwise disqualified, are eligible to register as electors and vote at elections here.

  Anti-Jewish Literature
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police investigations in respect of anti-Jewish literature are currently under way; and in what month and year each publication was referred to the police.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Information about current investigations is not kept centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Firearms Certificates
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list, for the current year, the number of(a) applications for the renewal of and (b) applications for a new shotgun certificate made to the North Wales police, and indicate in each case the number of applications which were not dealt with and certificates issued after (i) 28 days and (ii) three months.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  In the North Wales police force area in 1989 there were 6,697 applications for the renewal of shotgun certificates and 1,068 applications for the granting of new shotgun certificates. Figures for 1990 are not yet available. No information is available centrally on the time taken to deal with these applications.
  332
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the chief constable for north Wales, as to the reasons for the delay in processing the application for the renewal of a shotgun certificate made by Bryn Havord in April; and when the certificate will be issued.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  No. The administration of the licensing system under the Firearms Acts 19158 to 1988 is entirely a matter for local chief officers of police.

  Magistrates Courts
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidance he issues to magistrates court clerks on the regard they should have to the consequences on employers and the public when arranging the hearing of cases relating to non-payment of the community charge by a large number of persons employed in the same undertaking; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  We have had no evidence so far that any such guidance is required. There would in any case be practical difficulties. Courts issue summonses on the basis of applications from the local authority: information about employment is not included in such applications.

  Animal Procedures Committee
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will indicate, without identification of individuals, how many of the 21 members of the Animal Procedures Committee(a) currently hold licences to conduct animal experiments, (b) have previously held such licences, (c) are currently employed by organisations which conduct such experiments and (d) have previously been so employed.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  For the reasons set out in my reply to a question from the hon. Member on 12 November at columns 37–38, I am not prepared to add to the very full information given in my answer on 19 November at columns 11–12.

TRANSPORT

  Carbon Monoxide
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list those individuals and organisations which his Department has consulted in respect of the proposed introduction of an emission standard for carbon monoxide; and if he will indicate which(a) supported the proposed standard, (b) regarded it as too strict, (c) regarded it as too lax, (d) have yet to reply and (e) requested that their comments be treated as confidential.

  Mr. Chope
  We have consulted 120 individuals and organisations on our proposals to introduce a check of exhaust emissions into the MOT test. Twenty-nine submitted a response. There appears to be strong support for the principle of such a check. I shall make a further announcement on our proposals in the near future.

  Hazardous Substances
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he remains satisfied with the safety arrangements in place for the road transport of hydrobromic acid.

  Mr. Chope
  I am satisfied that the regulations for the road transport of dangerous substances, including hydrobromic acid, are adequate.

  Northern Line
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the current status of the project to upgrade the Northern line on London underground; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  I understand that London Underground is working up a scheme for the modernisation of the Northern line. I await its proposals.

  A30 (Launceston)
  Mr. Neale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what progress has been made in his review to improve motorists' safety at the Kennards House junction on the A30 trunk road at Launceston.

  Mr. Chope
  I have agreed that lighting should be installed at this junction. Some changes to road markings are also to be made to help drivers negotiate the junction.

ENVIRONMENT

  Planning Procedures
  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the dates and circumstances of each occasion when he or a predecessor has exercised his powers in part XV, section 276, of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971; and in each case how much compensation was paid.

  Mr. Michael Spicer
  In the period 1955 to 1973 there were 18 cases in which my right hon. Friend's predecessors used their default powers to revoke local authority planning permissions. There have been no cases subsequently. The available details are as follows:

  Year and details

  1955

  Orpington Urban District Council: residential development at Lynwood Estate, Orpington.

  Chislehurst and Sidcup Urban District Council: residential development between Chislehurst and Sidcup.

  1956

  Elstree Rural District Council: residential development at Furse Hill Estate, Barnet Lane.

  1958

  Bletchley Urban District Council: residential development at Watling Street, Bletchley.

  Bradford Councty Borough: residential development at Carr Boltom Road, Bradford.

  1960

  Bullingdon Rural District Council: residential development at Oxford Road, Preston Crownmarsh.

  Kerrier Rural District Council: commercial development at Porth Nowas Quay.

  North Kesteven Rural District Council: light industrial development at Ripley Drive, North Hykeham.

  334
  1961

  One case—details not known.

  1965

  One case—details not known.

  1966

  Two cases—details not known.

  1969

  Two cases—details not known.

  1970

  Two cases—details not known.

  1972

  Bristol City Council—hotel near Avon Gorge.

  1973

  London Borough of Richmond—residential development at Rutland Lodge, Petersham.

  Further information is not available in the form requested.

  Section 276 of the 1971 Act has now been consolidated in sections 100 and 104 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990.

  Catalytic Converters
  Dr. Kim Howells
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if the Government have any plans to provide fiscal incentives to car owners to fit catalytic converters.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  Taxation is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

  Toxic Chemicals (Dumping)
  Dr. Kim Howells
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the progress of the investigations into the illegal dumping of 40 barrels of toxic chemicals in Dunday; and what measures are being taken to prevent such occurrences in the future.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The investigation of this incident is a matter for Avon county council as waste disposal authority for the area in which it occurred. HM inspectorate of pollution is continuing to monitor developments and is prepared to offer advice on arrangements for analysis or safe disposal should such advice be required.

  The Environmental Protection Act 1990, which received Royal Assent on 1 November, includes a duty of care to be imposed on all holders of waste to ensure that it is not disposed of or managed illegally. The Act also extends the penalties for the illegal disposal of waste. The maximum fine on summary conviction will be £20,000, and prison terms will be introduced for all offences. On conviction on indictment fines are unlimited and, where special waste is involved, a maximum prison sentence of five years is possible.

  River Pollution
  Mr. Harry Barnes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consider introducing measures to give the National Rivers Authority power to prevent pollution from abandoned mineworkings; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The National Rivers Authority has powers under section 115 of the Water Act 1989 to
  335
  carry out works and operations for the purpose of preventing pollution of controlled waters, to take remedial action where pollution has already occurred and to recover the costs of taking such action. These general powers are applicable to abandoned mineworkings. In such cases, the authority may seek to recover costs from any person who caused pollution.

  Homelessness
  Mr. George Howarth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his estimate of the number of homeless people who will be sleeping rough this Christmas.

  Mr. Michael Spicer
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: We do not make forecasts of the number of people who may be sleeping rough at any point in the future. We have recently announced an increase of £80 million in our package of measures to help such people.

  Housing Corporation
  Mr. George Howarth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the Housing Corporation's approved development programme allocation on current projections by regions in terms of(a) original projected expenditure per region, (b) current projected expenditure per region, (c) original planned number of units for rent and (d) current projected number of units for rent.

  Mr. Key
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]This is a matter for the Housing Corporation. I have therefore asked the corporation to respond to the hon. Member direct.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  Higher Education
  Mr. Knapman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what consideration is being given by his Department to making donations to higher education from industry tax deductible.

  Mr. Maude
  The tax system already provides incentives to encourage business donations to higher education. Corporation tax relief is available for trade-related company donations for technical education and for cash payments by way of covenants and the gift aid scheme to educational establishments that are charities.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Hong Kong
  Mr. Warren
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the reasons for the delay in the development of the new airport at Hong Kong, and when it is now expected to be completed.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  There has been no delay. The Hong Kong Government plan to have the first runway in operation by early 1997.

  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was the number of 336
  Vietnamese children under the age of 14 years who were being held in detention centres in Hong Kong on 20 November.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  On 20 November there were 13,468 children under the age of 14 being held in detention centres in Hong Kong.

  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was the number of Vietnamese(a) men and (b) women who were being held in detention centres in Hong Kong on 20 November.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  On 20 November there were 16,991 men and 13,976 women being held in detention centres in Hong Kong.

  Non-proliferation Treaty
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what are the implications for the 1995 extension conference of the non-proliferation treaty of the lack of a final document from the fourth review conference.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The lack of a final document did not prevent the review conference from endorsing the continuing importance of the non-proliferation treaty for world security. We hope that the conference in 1995 will take a similarly positive line.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the fourth review conference of the non-proliferation treaty.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The NPT review conference was conducted in a positive atmosphere; there was wide support for the treaty's objectives and agreement was reached on most issues. It is to be regretted that consensus on a final document was blocked by one delegation, but the conference nevertheless achieved a full review of the operation of the treaty and demonstrated its continuing importance as a cornerstone of world security.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will indicate if any commitments were made to any of the 37 nongovernmental organisations invited to the off-the-record briefing referred to in his answer of 31 October 1990,Official Report, column 564, to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) to clarify in writing matters not resolved during the meeting of 23 October.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  As the hon. Gentleman has recognised, the meeting was off the record.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will set out the reasons why the United Kingdom Government considered it inappropriate for preparatory meetings for the 1995 nuclear non-proliferation treaty to begin in 1991 and the alternative proposals tabled by the three nuclear non-proliferation depository powers including the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The preparatory committee deals with administrative arrangements for the review conference, and we see no need for it to meet as early as 1991. For
  337
  the alternative proposal by the depository powers, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the then Minister of State to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) on 18 October, at column 901.

  Ukraine
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations have been received from the Government of the Soviet Republic of the Ukraine concerning the return of a barrel of gold deposited with the Bank of England in the early 18th century; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  None.

  Test Ban Treaty
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is Her Majesty's Government's policy in respect of participation in negotiations leading to a comprehensive test ban treaty.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  A comprehensive test ban remains a long term goal to which progress will be made only by a step-by-step approach. This must take account of technical advances in verification as well as progress elsewhere in arms control and the attitudes of other states.

  Somalia
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will state the reasons for the present closure of the British embassy in Mogadishu, Somalia, until 11 December; if he will state for what period from 11 December the embassy will be reopened, and with what services; and if he will describe the arrangements he proposes to make, for persons currently in Somalia who have been granted visas to enter the United Kingdom but are unable to collect them because of the present closure of the embassy, to enable such persons to travel to the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The British embassy in Mogadishu is not closed. All normal services except visas are available. As in many small missions, the consul is the only trained entry clearance officer. During his leave from 21 November to 10 December the issuance of visas is temporarily suspended. The ambassador will assist urgent visitors.

  Romania
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will review the Government's policy on aid to Romania.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We frequently review our policy on aid to Romania and shall continue to do so in accordance with developments in that country.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what new initiatives he intends to take to facilitate cultural exchanges between the United Kingdom and Romania.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  We have agreed with the Romanian Government to have negotiations in Bucharest in February to determine the shape and content of a new cultural exchange programme.

  The Gulf (Hostages)
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will place in the Library a list of names of those being held hostage in Iraq and Kuwait; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  I am arranging for a list of all those detained in Iraq and Kuwait to be placed in the Library.

  Geneva Conventions
  Sir Peter Emery
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the status of, and the Government's policy in respect of ratification of(a) the protocol additional to the Geneva conventions of 12 August 1949 and relating to the protection of victims of international armed conflicts, protocol 1, and (b) the protocol additional to the Geneva conventions of 12 August 1949 and relating to the protection of victims of non-international armed conflicts, protocol 2.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Currently, 97 states are party to additional protocol 1 of the 1949 Geneva conventions. Eighty-seven states are party to additional protocol 2. We signed both additional protocols in 1977, but have yet to ratify them. We hope to come to a decision soon.

ENERGY

  Bilsthorpe Power Station
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (1) what allowance he will make for the non-fossil fuel levy in assessing the financial go-ahead for the Bilsthorpe power station;

  (2) what assessment he has made of the economic potential of the Bilsthorpe coal-fired advanced technology power station.

  Mr. Baldry
  It is for the partners involved in the Bilsthorpe project to assess its economic potential, taking into account the requirement of the Electricity Act 1989 as regards the fossil fuel levy.

  British Gas
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what consultations he has had with British Gas regarding the cost of further computer runs to detect multiple share applications for British Gas.

  Mr. Wakeham
  None.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what representations he has had from the Metropolitan police for further computer runs to detect multiple share applications for British Gas.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The Department is in discussion with the Crown prosecution service and the police about the investigation and possible prosecution of multiple applications, both for British Gas and the forthcoming regional electricity company share offers.

  Energy Conservation
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what additional resources are to be provided to stimulate energy conservation and saving; and if he will list the particular steps which are to be taken or confirmed in 1991.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Energy Efficiency Office budget will be substantially increased, to £42 million for 1991–92. The EEO will continue to promote a range of programmes designed to encourage the adoption of cost-effective energy efficiency measures.

  From January 1991, the new home energy efficiency scheme, replacing the community insulation programme, will offer grants towards the cost of basic energy efficiency measures in low-income households.

  During 1991, the EEO will be taking forward the initiatives announced in the White Paper on the environment "This Common Inheritance", Cm. 1200, which include: developing proposals for a new scheme of project management assistance for implementation of energy efficiency projects; considering with the lighting industry how to overcome barriers to the uptake of high-efficiency lighting; pursuing appliance labelling and minimum standards with our own appliance industry and in the EC.

  The ministerial committee on energy efficiency, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, will maintain the momentum for energy efficiency improvements; monitor the Government's energy efficiency programmes and the White Paper initiatives, and assess the need for further action.

  Dr. Kim Howells
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what steps the Government have taken to encourage regional electricity companies to promote energy conservation after privatisation.

  Mr. Baldry
  Condition 22 of the supply licences issued to the regional electricity companies imposes an obligation on them to provide information and advice on energy efficiency and to provide individual codes of practice to the Director of the Office of Electricity Regulation—OFFER —setting out their proposals for doing this. Negotiations are continuing between the regional electricity companies and OFFER on the content of the codes.

  Domestic Electricity Appliances
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what response has been offered to the European Community proposals to set out energy survey standards for domestic electricity appliances; and to what extent this response fulfils the aspirations and plans which Her Majesty's Government put forward at the recent world climate conference in Geneva.

  Dr. Kim Howells
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (1) if the Government have any plans to implement legislation requiring energy labelling on electrical goods to enable consumers to be aware of the relative amounts of energy different brands of appliances consume;

  (2) if the Government have any plans to introduce legislation requiring minimum energy efficiency standards for all new domestic appliances as part of the programme to combat global warming.

  Mr. Baldry
  As set out in chapter 5 and annex C of the White Paper on the environment "This Common 340
  Inheritance"—Cm 1200—energy efficiency is an important part of the Government's strategy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

  On appliances, we are pressing for agreements on energy efficiency labelling and standards within the European Community. Our own plans for a voluntary labelling scheme which will lead to improved efficiency were outlined at a consultative workshop held by the European Commission earlier this month. We believe that effective voluntary measures can make legislation unnecessary and bring about far swifter improvements in energy efficiency.

  Coal Prices
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what legal advice was received in relation to the letter from Mr. Heathcote, head of coal division, to Sara Llewellyn Jones, solicitor to the South Wales Small Mines Association, dated 22 November, concerning the offer of improved coal prices from National Power; and if he will place a copy of that letter in the Library.

  Mr. Baldry
  The letter was drafted in consultation with representatives, including legal advisers, of National Power and British Coal. Its contents are confidential to the parties concerned.

  Oil and Gas Licences
  Mr. David Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his policy on farm-in proposals for oil and gas exploration and production licences; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Wakeham
  Transfers of interest in petroleum licences, which are commonly known as farm-ins, are commercial transactions and, as such, the arrangements are initially a matter for the companies concerned.

  Under the terms of petroleum licences, such transactions also need prior consent. Like my predecessors, I believe that farm-ins have the potential to benefit United Kingdom oil and gas exploitation. They enable companies operating on the United Kingdom continental shelf to make what they regard as timely and desirable adjustments to their holdings of licence interests and they are of particular importance to those independents which wish to increase the scale and pace of their participation in exploration and development activity.

  In examining farm-in proposals, I shall continue to seek to ensure that the purpose for which licences have been granted—that is the thorough and efficient exploration and exploitation of the nation's oil and gas reserves—is fully safeguarded by the transactions. It is the policy and practice of my Department to consider each application on its merits. In advising me, the Department will in particular consider:

  (a) the technical competence and financial capability of the company acquiring an interest and its intentions as regards the further exploration and exploitation of the licensed area. These factors are not only relevant when the licence is awarded: they continue to be relevant at all stages during the licence activity;

  (b) if the application is received during the initial term of the licence, whether satisfactory progress has been made by the original licensees on the work programme attached to the licence; and

  (c) the numbers of licensees on the licence, and the effect of any increase on efficient management of activity. I would wish to consider particularly closely any

  341
  proposal to increase the number of participants in any licence or field to more than 10. I would generally expect that in the earlier licence stages there would be advantage in licence groups being somewhat smaller than this.

WALES

  Wild Foxes
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what annual expenditure is incurred by his Department in controlling the numbers of the wild fox population in Wales.

  Primary Schools1

  LEA

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  Clwyd

  44

  25

  54

  112

  94

  106

  Dyfed

  59

  86

  53

  52

  60

  47

  Gwent

  81

  104

  73

  101

  130

  122

  Gwynedd

  52

  51

  54

  38

  55

  56

  Mid Glamorgan

  133

  46

  13

  72

  86

  60

  Powys

  16

  15

  23

  48

  58

  25

  South Glamorgan

  42

  58

  31

  82

  90

  100

  West Glamorgan

  128

  54

  34

  34

  25

  47

  1 Figures as at the January enumeration day each year.

  Secondary Schools1

  LEA

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  Clwyd

  51

  69

  53

  61

  71

  59

  Dyfed

  40

  44

  25

  38

  43

  38

  Gwent

  66

  73

  69

  120

  72

  83

  Gwynedd

  55

  58

  57

  36

  74

  73

  Mid Glamorgan

  93

  44

  43

  64

  91

  84

  Powys

  14

  25

  21

  20

  16

  47

  South Glamorgan

  52

  48

  70

  97

  103

  109

  West Glamorgan

  70

  43

  32

  20

  23

  25

  1 Figures as at the January enumeration day each year.

  School Books
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the expenditure per pupil on school books in each of the local education authorities in Wales in(a) the

  Primary1

  £/per pupil

  LEA

  1979–80

  1980–81

  1981–82

  1982–83

  1983–84

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–892

  Clwyd

  23·3

  25·1

  27·5

  26·8

  29·1

  26·9

  24·3

  25·4

  22·6

  20·0

  Dyfed

  29·5

  27·6

  33·5

  28·3

  26·8

  22·0

  21·5

  23·5

  27·4

  25·7

  Gwent

  18·0

  22·0

  23·2

  27·6

  25·4

  23·9

  24·9

  25·6

  27·5

  29·1

  Gwynedd

  21·9

  22·2

  19·5

  21·5

  21·8

  20·3

  20·8

  26·6

  26·9

  26·2

  Mid-Glamorgan

  24·9

  23·0

  18·4

  23·1

  26·8

  20·9

  25·1

  25·5

  26·0

  27·4

  Powys

  25·7

  20·0

  30·3

  32·0

  31·3

  29·0

  29·0

  31·7

  34·4

  28·9

  South Glamorgan

  26·7

  23·9

  25·8

  24·8

  26·1

  22·3

  24·1

  25·6

  26·9

  26·8

  West Glamorgan

  35·1

  34·2

  29·4

  33·6

  32·1

  26·2

  30·4

  36·2

  32·8

  31·9

  Secondary1

  £/per pupil

  LEA

  1979–80

  1980–81

  1981–82

  1982–83

  1983–84

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–892

  Clwyd

  40·1

  42·7

  49·9

  48·2

  64·3

  57·7

  50·2

  60·8

  50·8

  47·5

  Dyfed

  42·9

  37·8

  44·5

  48·5

  46·3

  39·4

  47·2

  55·7

  79·1

  64·7

  Gwent

  41·1

  43·4

  46·4

  48·5

  51·4

  59·3

  58·3

  69·0

  68·9

  80·5

  Gwynedd

  42·5

  44·1

  43·9

  44·3

  48·0

  60·8

  52·9

  79·3

  74·2

  64·9

  Mid Glamorgan

  47·9

  44·6

  37·1

  44·6

  46·8

  47·9

  51·8

  73·4

  66·3

  82·2

  Powys

  50·3

  39·1

  55·2

  53·0

  48·7

  80·1

  46·8

  68·8

  67·0

  65·8

  342
  Mr. David Hunt
  None. Control of foxes is a matter for individual landowners.

  Supply Teachers
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many teaching positions are currently filled by supply teachers in(a) the primary sector and (b) the secondary sector in Wales according to each local education authority area; and how many positions have been filled by supply teachers in each of the last five years.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The numbers of teachers employed in maintained primary and secondary schools to provide temporary cover for absent teachers on an occasional or short-notice basis are shown in the tables:

  primary sector and (b) the secondary sector in the last year for which figures are available and in each year since 1979 at constant prices.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Figures for expenditure per pupil on equipment and materials, including books, are given at constant prices in the table:
  343

  LEA

  1979–80

  1980–81

  1981–82

  1982–83

  1983–84

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–892

  South Glamorgan

  47·7

  44·2

  44·2

  46·6

  46·3

  42·0

  50·0

  70·5

  60·5

  63·9

  West Glamorgan

  55·1

  41·3

  40·8

  56·6

  58·8

  53·2

  49·8

  76·1

  70·2

  68·6

  1At 1989–90 prices.

  2 Provisional.

  Day Nurseries
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many day nursery places were taken up by pre-school children in Wales during(a) 1989 and (b) 1990; if he will publish a breakdown of these figures for (i)

  Day nursery places as at 31 March

  Local authority places

  Places as a percentage of 3 and 4 year olds

  Registered nursery places

  Places as a percentage of 3 and 4 year olds

  Clwyd

  1989

  43

  0·4

  645

  6·4

  1990

  43

  0·4

  868

  8·3

  Dyfed

  1989

  —

  —

  56

  0·7

  1990

  —

  —

  44

  0·5

  Gwent

  1989

  131

  1·1

  —

  —

  1990

  131

  1·1

  243

  2·0

  Gwynedd

  1989

  —

  —

  189

  3·4

  1990

  —

  —

  208

  3·6

  Mid Glamorgan

  1989

  —

  —

  117

  0·8

  1990

  —

  —

  228

  1·5

  Powys

  1989

  —

  —

  81

  3·0

  1990

  —

  —

  85

  3·0

  South Glamorgan

  1989

  61

  0·6

  548

  5·0

  1990

  38

  0·3

  728

  6·4

  West Glamorgan

  1989

  29

  0·3

  276

  3·0

  1990

  29

  0·3

  289

  3·1

  Wales

  1989

  264

  0·4

  1,912

  2·6

  1990

  241

  0·3

  2,693

  3·6

  The three and four year old pre-school population has been used to calculate percentages. —Signifies nil.

  A487
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales on what date was the draft compulsory purchase order first drawn up to enable the construction of a pavement between Caernarfon and Bontnewydd on the A487 trunk road; on what date an objection was received by the Welsh Office; and what steps have been taken subsequently by his Department to try to resolve this matter.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  I have nothing to add to the letter I sent the hon. Gentleman on 19 November in reply to his letter of 2 November.
  344
  county council areas and (ii) district council areas; and what percentage of pre-school children in Wales currently take advantage of day nursery places.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The information available for local authority nurseries and private registered nurseries is shown in the table for county council areas. Data for district council areas are not held centrally.

  Roads
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the performance of the roads division of the Welsh Office.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Since 1979, a total of 156 miles of new motorway and trunk roads have been completed, and total expenditure of over £1·2 billion incurred on such roads. This reflects the importance which the Government place on improving and maintaining the road network in Wales.

  Planning Procedures
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will ensure that, in determining planning applications which come on appeal to the Welsh Office, sufficient
  345
  consideration is given to the wishes of the local community as expressed by the district council; if he will make it his policy that planning appeals should be upheld only if there is a very strong case either on a point of law or on a failure to implement agreed planning strategy at a local level; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  All representations received in respect of a planning appeal are taken into account by my right hon.
  346
  Friend and his inspectors. The weight given to the views of a district council will depend on the circumstances of the case.

  My right hon. Friend's policy is that each appeal is considered on its merits against the relevant planning policies. He considers that the policy suggestions in the question would be contrary to the aims of the planning legislation.

  National Rivers Authority
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans to increase the staffing levels of the National Rivers Authority Welsh region.

  Mr. Grist
  This is a matter for the National Rivers Authority.

  Exchange Rate Mechanism
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received from business interests in Wales on Britain's entry into the exchange rate mechanism and how many indicated(a) that the exchange rate was too high against the deutschmark and (b) that the exchange rate was too low against the deutschmark.

  Mr. David Hunt
  None.

  HIV
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report, for the latest available date, the number of children (a) who are infected with the HIV virus, (b) who are suffering from AIDS and (c) who have died from AIDS.

  Mr. Grist
  For reasons of confidentiality and in line with the AIDS (Control) Act, numbers betwen one and nine inclusive are given as "less than 10". In each of the three categories cited the number is less than 10.

  University Hospital of Wales
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many staff are currently in post at the University hospital of Wales paediatric cardiac surgery unit.

  Mr. Grist
  The information requested is not available centrally.

  Health Authorities (Savings)
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the net projected savings made by health authorities in Wales in the current financial year.

  Mr. Grist
  The most recent estimates provided by health authorities suggest that the level of savings which they will collectively achieve from their cash-releasing cost improvement programmes this year will be £8·5 million. This is equivalent to 0·9 per cent. of their recurrent revenue allocations notified at the start of 1990–91 and is slightly below the minimum target of 1·1 per cent. of recurrent revenue resources which has been set for cash-releasing cost improvement savings this year. While authorities may count non-recurrent cost improvements such as capital receipts against this target, those doing so will have the recurrent shortfall added to the minimum target for cost improvement savings to be set for 1991–92.

  Health Authorities (Buildings)
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to enable health authorities to improve their defective buildings; and if he will make a statement.
  348
  Mr. Grist
  Responsibility for the management and maintenance of the NHS estate in Wales is delegated to district health authorities. They are expected to maintain their buildings to an acceptable standard and to spend a minimum of 7·5 per cent. of their revenue and capital allocations on the maintenance of assets, including buildings.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many health authority buildings still in use were built(a) 50 years and (b) 100 years ago; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  The information requested is not available centrally.

  School Buildings
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to bring defective school buildings up to standard; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Local education authorities are responsible for the condition of school buildings in their areas. Since 1985–86, central Government have increased by 60 per cent. the capital resources notionally made available to local education authorities for the provision of educational buildings and for their capital maintenance.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many schools in Wales in each local education authority were built before 1903; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Details of the ages of school buildings are not held centrally.

  NHS Trusts
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many hospital trust applications he has received in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  None, although my right hon. Friend is currently considering the "expression of interest" submitted by Pembrokeshire district health authority for NHS trust status.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales in what ways he is actively pursuing the interest of Pembrokeshire health authority in becoming a national health service trust.

  Mr. Grist
  My right hon. Friend is currently considering the "expression of interest", together with further information which has been recently received from the authority.

  General Practitioners
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many general practitioner budget status applications he has received in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  Applications for recognition as a fund-holding practice from I April 1991 were required to be made by 1 November. Eight applications were received from practices in Wales although one of these has since withdrawn. The seven practices have been authorised to undertake the preparatory work. Formal offers of practice funds will be made early next year.

  Hospitals
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many hospital beds have been lost in Wales since 1979.

  Mr. Grist
  Between the calendar year 1979 and the financial year 1989–90 the number of average daily available beds fell by 3,600. Over the same period the number of in-patients treated rose by 125,800— + 36 per cent.—and the number of day cases rose by 54,800—+ 176 per cent.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many hospital wards are proposed for closure in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  The information held centrally relates only to proposed closures which are at present the subject of formal consultation. On this basis, and including those cases where consultation has ended but a final decision has yet to be made, 52 hospital wards are subject to closure proposals. Of these, 25 are linked to the planned development of a new district general hospital for the people of Taff-Ely and the Rhondda.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many hospitals have closed since 1980.

  Mr. Grist
  Since 1 January 1980 the number of hospitals that have closed, and are still closed, is 21. However, during the same period eight hospitals, including five district general hospitals, have opened.

  Health Authorities
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of Stale for Wales how many meetings he has had with the health authorities of Wales to discuss their financial difficulties; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  My right hon. Friend and I discussed the financial difficulties of Gwynedd health authority and its plans for resolving them with the chairman and general manager of the authority on 1 August. In addition, our officials have undertaken a series of annual review meetings with all authorities in recent months at which their financial positions have been reviewed. Health authorities have a statutory duty to contain expenditure within their notified cash resources, and we are content that they will do so.

  Toxic Waste
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if, for each recommendation made by the Welsh Affairs Committee in its first report of Session 1989–90 on toxic waste disposal in Wales, he will state(a) the action taken by his Department so far and (b) the action proposed by his Department; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  The Government's response to the recommendations was set out in Cm. 1147—my right hon. Friend's reply of 18 July refers to it. Provisions as indicated have been embodied in the Environmental Protection Act.

  Community Charge Appeals
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will place in the Library the statutory community charge appeal documents authorised or prepared in the Welsh language and indicate the legislative base for the production of such documents.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have not prescribed community charge appeal documents in either English or Welsh. Welsh language forms for use in connection with the community charge are prescribed in the Community Charges and Non-Domestic Rating (Demand Notices) (Wales) Regulations 1990, and in the Personal Community Charge (Students) Regulations 1989, copies of which are in the Library. In each case the powers relied upon include those provided by section 2(2) of the Welsh Language Act 1967.

  M4
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the traffic counts for(a) cars and (b) lorries on the M4 from (i) Newhouse roundabout to the Coldra and (ii) from the Coldra to Tredegar park roundabout in each of the past 10 years.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Figures are provided for the sections from Newhouse to Magor and Caerleon to Malpas. Only total vehicle counts are available for the 10-year period as shown in the following table. Manual classified counts are carried out less frequently and the split between cars and all classes of goods vehicles is shown where available.

  (i) Newhouse roundabout to the Coldra Newhouse roundabout to Magor

  Year

  Total vehicles

  Cars

  Lorries

  1981

  24,800

  —

  —

  1982

  25,400

  —

  —

  1983

  25,800

  —

  —

  1984

  28,150

  —

  —

  1985

  30,000

  21,700

  7,700

  1986

  31,900

  —

  —

  1987

  35,500

  —

  —

  1988

  40,600

  —

  —

  1989

  44,000

  —

  —

  1990

  144,600

  —

  —

  1 Estimated.

  (it) The Coldra to Tredegar park roundabout Caerleon road junction to Malpas (Brynglas tunnels)

  Year

  Total vehicles

  Cars

  Lorries

  1981

  —

  —

  —

  1982

  50,200

  —

  —

  1983

  54,700

  41,300

  13,150

  1984

  59,100

  —

  —

  1985

  58,500

  —

  —

  1986

  —

  —

  —

  1987

  63,500

  —

  —

  1988

  68,700

  —

  —

  1989

  74,900

  56,500

  18,000

  1990

  177,300

  —

  —

  1 Estimated.

  Severn Estuary
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the dates of all unexpected tidal surges of more than a foot that have occurred in the Severn estuary during the past 10 years.
  351
  Mr. Grist
  This information could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Grant earning ceilings—adjusted using PWNR1 to mid 1989–90 prices (mid 1990–91 estimated)

  NRA Region/District

  1985–86 £ million

  1986–87 £ million

  1987–88 £ million

  1988–89 £ million

  1989–90 £ million

  1990–91 £ million

  Anglian:

  Essex

  2·03

  2·87

  5·04

  5·42

  3·20

  2·33

  Great Ouse

  1·82

  1·75

  1·68

  2·65

  2·40

  3·89

  Lincs

  4·20

  4·54

  4·39

  4·68

  6·10

  7·29

  Norfolk-Suffolk

  1·61

  2·13

  3·49

  3·49

  3·65

  3·99

  Welland and Nene

  2·38

  2·10

  1·68

  1·50

  1·32

  1·36

  Northumbrian

  0·20

  0·10

  0·23

  0·26

  0·25

  0·29

  North West

  3·05

  1·58

  1·49

  1·65

  1·40

  2·14

  Severn Trent

  4·13

  3·61

  3·49

  5·61

  2·85

  3·70

  Southern:

  Hampshire

  0·43

  0·00

  0·19

  0·06

  0·38

  1·17

  Isle of Wight

  0·00

  0·00

  0·00

  0·00

  0·00

  0·24

  Kent

  3·39

  2·58

  2·78

  3·81

  2·50

  3·11

  Sussex

  1·50

  2·95

  27·00

  24·50

  1·12

  2·04

  South West

  2·72

  2·38

  2·25

  2·30

  2·94

  3·40

  Thames

  3·68

  6·50

  5·17

  7·42

  6·50

  7·29

  Wessex:

  Avon-Dorset

  0·75

  0·68

  0·99

  1·20

  1·50

  1·26

  Bristol-Avon

  0·82

  0·38

  0·31

  0·15

  0·30

  0·29

  Somerset

  2·98

  2·91

  2·93

  2·31

  1·80

  1·94

  Yorkshire

  4·85

  4·24

  5·04

  5·55

  5·08

  5·19

  Total

  40·54

  41·32

  48·15

  52·57

  43·28

  50·95

  1 Public works output price index for non-roads compiled by the Department of the Environment.

  2 Includes special allocation for Seaford sea defence scheme.

  Poultry
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish a table showing for each county of England and Wales the number of salmonella enteritidis PT4 outbreaks among poultry, the number of birds slaughtered and the compensation paid, in 1990 to date.

  Mr. Maclean
  Information in the form requested is not readily available. However a total of 49 flocks infected with salmonella enteritidis comprising 507,733 birds have so far been compulsorily slaughtered in 1990 at a cost in compensation of £551,509.

  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) under what circumstances antibiotic treatment of salmonella in poultry is now allowed; and if he will make a statement on the use of competitive exclusion products;

  (2) whether he intends to amend his salmonella control regulations in respect of poultry; if he will introduce an antibiotic treatment alternative for laying flocks; and if he will make a statement.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Drainage Authorities
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the grant earning ceiling for each local or regional drainage district of the National Rivers Authority in each of the last five years at constant 1989–90 prices.

  Mr. Curry
  The information is as follows:

  Mr. Maclean
  Flocks of pullets—layer replacements—which are infected with salmonella enteritidis or salmonella typhimurium are permitted in certain circumstances to be treated with antibiotics and a competitive exclusion product as an alternative to slaughter. These arrangements are being conducted on a trial basis at present to determine the effectiveness of the treatment. The possibility of further adaptation of the salmonella control policy is being kept under review.

  Pigs
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he received a copy of the Humane Slaughter Association report on the culling of pig breeding stock; what response he will be making to its recommendations; and if he proposes any consequent legislative change.

  Mr. Maclean
  A copy of this report has just been received and we will be considering it carefully.
  353

  Unfit Meat
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many inquiries his Department is currently undertaking following the sale of unfit meat to butchers and supermarkets.

  Mr. Maclean
  Although MAFF veterinary officers can and do work closely with local authorities in this area, enforcement of legislation on unfit meat is the local authorities' responsibility and questions on numbers of inquiries must therefore be addressed to them. I am, nevertheless, aware that there is concern over allegations of illegal trade in unfit meat and we have instituted a full review of the existing controls to see if any improvements can be made, with particular attention to collection of casualty stock from farms.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what information he has concerning the market value of beef cattle coming from farms where bovine spongiform encephalopathy has been confirmed.

  Mr. Curry
  None.

  Mr. Hague
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his Department's latest forecast for the future spread of bovine spongiform encephalopathy; and if he will make a statement on the level of reporting of BSE cases.

  Mr. Maclean
  At present, about 350 suspect cases of BSE are being reported each week. The future course of the disease cannot be predicted precisely, but an

  Month ending:

  County

  17 July 1990

  17 August 1990

  17 September 1990

  17 October 1990

  17 November 1990

  Avon

  26

  23

  19

  24

  18

  Bedfordshire

  0

  3

  6

  5

  3

  Berkshire

  7

  3

  5

  7

  2

  Borders

  0

  2

  2

  2

  2

  Buckinghamshire

  17

  15

  6

  10

  8

  Cambridgeshire

  6

  3

  3

  5

  2

  Central

  2

  1

  1

  2

  1

  Cheshire

  26

  37

  30

  23

  23

  Cleveland

  3

  3

  2

  1

  1

  Clwyd

  12

  20

  17

  11

  10

  Cornwall

  53

  72

  83

  71

  79

  Cumbria

  27

  24

  20

  16

  13

  Derbyshire

  16

  32

  14

  23

  16

  Devon

  182

  82

  96

  130

  101

  Dorset

  101

  86

  105

  93

  90

  Dumfries

  5

  5

  6

  9

  3

  Durham

  8

  3

  5

  4

  3

  Dyfed

  67

  40

  40

  49

  41

  Essex

  5

  7

  7

  3

  3

  Fife

  2

  4

  2

  2

  3

  Mid-Glamorgan

  3

  3

  3

  5

  3

  South Glamorgan

  1

  5

  4

  1

  4

  West Glamorgan

  1

  0

  0

  2

  0

  Gloucestershire

  39

  38

  17

  9

  18

  Grampian

  8

  5

  6

  6

  7

  Gwent

  4

  6

  4

  6

  17

  Gwynedd

  3

  3

  3

  3

  2

  Hampshire

  36

  43

  33

  41

  42

  Herefordshire and Worcestershire

  20

  22

  25

  16

  22

  Hertfordshire

  9

  3

  7

  81

  8

  Highland

  1

  2

  1

  3

  3

  Humberside

  7

  10

  4

  6

  5

  Isle of Wight

  11

  7

  16

  12

  8

  Kent

  19

  18

  35

  22

  11

  354
  assessment of the latest epidemiological evidence suggests that the number of cases will continue to rise until some time in 1992, after which, provided there is no direct cattle-to-cattle transmission, it will start to fall. The expected increase does not represent continued spread of the disease, but is a result of the exposure of cattle to the agent through the consumption of ruminant-based protein rations prior to the imposition of the feed ban in July 1988 and the long incubation period before clinical disease manifests itself.

  Since BSE was made a notifiable disease in June 1988 the number of suspected cases arising each week has increased fairly steadily. Within this overall upward trend, a fairly consistent pattern of reporting has become apparent with numbers increasing in spring and autumn. Close surveillance at markets and abattoirs has not revealed any deliberate attempts to evade the legal requirement to report suspect cases of BSE.

  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the number of confirmed cases of BSE by county in the months to(a) 17 July, (b) 17 August, (c) 17 September, (d) 17 October and (e) 17 November.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 21 November 1990]: The number of cases confirmed on a monthly basis simply reflects the number of positive findings of BSE recorded as a result of laboratory investigation in the period concerned. As processing in the laboratory can take several weeks, these figures do not therefore accurately reflect developments in the number of new cases arising or reported.

  The information for Great Britain is as follows:

  355

  Month ending:

  County

  17 July 1990

  17 August 1990

  17 September 1990

  17 October 1990

  17 November 1990

  Lancashire

  17

  48

  30

  27

  23

  Leicestershire

  20

  42

  15

  43

  15

  Lincolnshire

  4

  8

  11

  4

  13

  London

  0

  0

  2

  0

  1

  Manchester

  0

  2

  0

  0

  2

  Merseyside

  0

  2

  1

  2

  2

  Norfolk

  13

  24

  20

  26

  7

  Northamptonshire

  4

  8

  14

  13

  13

  Northumberland

  0

  3

  5

  4

  1

  Nottinghamshire

  9

  15

  3

  11

  4

  Oxfordshire

  7

  16

  17

  14

  20

  Powys

  15

  8

  11

  3

  8

  Shropshire

  28

  15

  30

  16

  28

  Somerset

  83

  105

  105

  56

  133

  Staffordshire

  39

  15

  21

  30

  113

  Strathclyde

  8

  8

  6

  7

  11

  Suffolk

  14

  23

  13

  18

  14

  Surrey

  8

  8

  10

  14

  7

  East Sussex

  14

  10

  13

  14

  21

  West Sussex

  27

  25

  26

  40

  24

  Tayside

  4

  2

  4

  4

  6

  Tyne and Wear

  0

  0

  0

  1

  0

  West Midlands

  0

  0

  1

  0

  1

  Warwickshire

  14

  12

  9

  10

  11

  Wiltshire

  64

  86

  57

  66

  78

  North Yorkshire

  52

  39

  51

  41

  37

  South Yorkshire

  6

  6

  5

  5

  1

  West Yorkshire

  12

  9

  3

  3

  4

  Total

  1,189

  1,169

  1,110

  1,095

  1,070

  Fungicides
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if the fungicide malachite green has a product licence issued by his Department.

  Mr. Maclean
  Eight malachite green products have been licensed under the Medicines Act 1968 solely for treatment of aquarium fish.

  Cocoa
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what information he has about the pesticides, herbicides and fungicides used on cocoa imported to the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Maclean
  The results of monitoring for pesticide residues in cocoa undertaken by the food industry are made available to the Government's working party on

  1000 tonnes/£ million

  30 September 1988

  30 September 1989 (provisional)

  30 September 1990 (provisional)

  Tonnage

  Value

  Tonnage

  Value

  Tonnage

  Value

  Beef

  32

  49

  9

  12

  42

  32

  Dairy products

  50

  76

  8

  11

  27

  15

  Lamb1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Cereals

  1,737

  124

  705

  44

  562

  17

  1 There has been no public intervention storage of lamb.

  The costs of intervention storage in the 12-month f million periods ending 30 September 1988, 1989 and 1990 are as follows:
  356
  pesticide residues. Residues of organochlorine pesticides have been detected but at very low levels which present no risk to consumers and are declining. The International Cocoa Association is compiling a list of active ingredients used in producing countries to facilitate monitoring.

  Intervention Produce
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give the total amount by weight and value of United Kingdom(a) beef, (b) dairy products, (c) lamb and (d) other produce in intervention in 1988, 1989 and the latest available date together with the total cost of storing this food.

  Mr. Curry
  [holding answer 16 November 1990]: The table shows actual stock levels and value as at 30 September for the periods requested.

  £ million

  1988

  40

  1989

  121

  1990

  116

  1 Provisional.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  European Parliamentary Conference
  Mr. Page
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if any changes have been made to the delegation attending the European parliamentary conference in Rome on 27 to 30 November.

  Mr. MacGregor
  The delegation will now include Mr. Patrick Nicholls. Dr. Norman Godman, Sir Jim Spicer and Lord Aldington will not attend.

  Slot Machines
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to ensure all slot machines in the Palace of Westminster are adapted to take the new 5p piece before the demonetisation of its predecessor on 31 December.

  Mr. MacGregor
  The coin-operated payphones, the cigarette machines, and the machines dispensing books of postage stamps accept only coins of a larger denomination than 5p. The food and drink vending machines in the Norman Shaw South building already accept both types of 5p coin. All other vending machines will be converted to accept the new 5p piece before the end of the year.

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION

  Refreshment Department
  Mr. John Garrett
  To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make available in the Library the Touche Ross report on the Refreshment Department.

  Mr. Beith
  The Greene Bellfield-Smith division of Touche Ross management consultants has recently completed its review of the management structure of the Refreshment Department, which was announced in paragraph 31 of the Commission's annual report for 1989–90—HC 572. A copy of the consultants' report will be placed in the Library of the House today. The Commission has not yet considered the report.

  Ibbs Report
  Mr. John Garrett
  To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, when the Ibbs report on the management of House of Commons services will be published.

  Mr. Beith
  The report of the team led by Sir Robin Ibbs, on "House of Commons Services", will be published tomorrow morning as House of Commons paper 38.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Angola
  Mr. Corbett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to provide substantial extra aid for the United Nations special relief programme for Angola to meet basic survival needs.
  358
  Mrs. Chalker
  The details of the special relief programme for Angola are under urgent study, together with requests from several British non-governmental organisations which are co-operating with the United Nations. In advance of a response to the Secretary-General's appeal, we have already agreed to contribute towards the cost of a team of United Nations co-ordinators to assist with implementation of the programme.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Expo 92, Seville
  Mr. John Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the estimated completion date for the British pavilion building at Expo 92 in Seville.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: The estimated completion date for the British pavilion building at Expo 92 in Seville is August 1991.

  Mr. John Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what British firms have offered or guaranteed sponsorship of the British pavilion at Expo 92 in Seville; how much money has been offered or guaranteed in each case; and whether any non-United Kingdom European Community companies have made similar offers or guarantees of sponsorship.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: The table lists the British firms that have offered or guaranteed sponsorship of the British pavilion at Expo 92 and the value of each company's contribution, where we have permission to disclose it. Sponsorship is often a combination of cash and the supply of goods or services and in a number of instances is subject to the normal conventions of commercial confidentiality. No non-United Kingdom European Community company has made a similar offer or guarantee of sponsorship.

  Company

  Value £

  Amalgamated Tanks International Ltd.

  —

  Great Yarmouth

  Norfolk

  BP Solar Ltd.

  —

  Leatherhcad

  Surrey

  British Steel

  2,000,000

  Rotherham

  South Yorkshire

  Otis Elevator plc

  —

  Kirkby

  Liverpool

  Rolls Royce Motor Cars Ltd.

  —

  Crewe

  Cheshire

  Rotary International Ltd.

  —

  County Antrim

  Northern Ireland

  Royal Doulton Ltd.

  300,000

  Stoke on Trent

  Staffordshire

  Simplex Piling Ltd./BM Group

  —

  Chippenham

  Wiltshire

  Thorn Security Ltd.

  300,000

  Feltham

  Middlesex

  Tubeworkers Ltd.

  —

  Claverdon

  Warwick

  359
  Mr. John Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on his Department's budget for Expo 92 at Seville, both for present and planned current and capital spending, by area.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: My Department's budget for Expo 92 covering both current and capital expenditure is £25 million.

  Mr. John Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the original estimated cost of the British pavilion planned for Expo 92; what is the current estimated cost, and what effect on costs any design changes have had.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: The original estimated cost for the British pavilion was 14 million. Development of the design has not led to any change in that estimate.

  1990–91 Academic year

  Further Education Colleges

  Number of approved full- time teaching posts

  Number of promoted posts

  Number of transferred posts

  Belfast College of Technology

  221

  57

  45

  Belfast College of Business Studies

  110

  24

  28

  Rupert Stanley College

  131

  18

  5

  North-West College

  135

  27

  15

  Fermanagh College

  65

  6

  —

  Limavady

  28

  3

  1

  Omagh

  63

  4

  —

  Antrim

  31

  3

  1

  Ballymena

  102

  9

  5

  Newtownabbey

  92

  10

  3

  Ballymoney

  24

  2

  —

  Coleraine

  50

  3

  —

  Magherafelt

  37

  2

  —

  Larne

  49

  2

  —

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College

  23

  2

  —

  Lisburn

  79

  9

  6

  Down

  48

  5

  2

  Newcastle

  23

  3

  —

  Castlereagh

  75

  7

  5

  North Down and Ards

  111

  13

  8

  Lurgan

  52

  3

  —

  Portadown

  97

  11

  5

  Armagh

  67

  5

  —

  Banbridge

  27

  1

  —

  East Tyrone

  65

  4

  —

  Newry/Kilkeel

  81

  9

  5

  Total

  1,886

  242

  134

  Mr. Stott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the numbers of youth training programme-funded posts for each further education college for the academic years 1990–91 and 1989–90.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information requested is as follows:

  Further Education College

  1989–90

  1990–91

  Belfast College of Technology

  49

  31

  Belfast College of Business Studies

  16

  11

  Rupert Stanley College

  87

  80

  North West College

  37

  34

  Fermanagh

  13

  12

  Limavady

  22

  16

  Omagh

  8

  7

  Antrim

  11

  9

  Ballymena

  16

  12

  Newtownabbey

  28

  19

  Ballymoney

  11

  8

  Coleraine

  16

  13

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Further Education Colleges
  Mr. Stott
  To ask the Secretary
  of State for Northern Ireland (1) what are the numbers of establishment promoted and transferred posts for each further education college for the academic year 1990–91;

  (2) what are the numbers of mainstream further education posts for each further education college for the academic year 1990–91.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information requested is as follows:

  Further Education College

  1989–90

  1990–91

  Magherafelt

  8

  8

  Larne

  10

  6

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College

  —

  —

  Lisburn

  25

  25

  Down

  23

  23

  Newcastle

  13

  13

  Castlereagh

  11

  11

  North Down and Ards

  29

  29

  Lurgan

  14

  9

  Portadown

  13

  8

  Armagh

  9

  4

  Banbridge

  10

  5

  East Tyrone

  11

  8

  Newry/Kilkeel

  21

  14

  Lecturers
  Mr. Stott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) how many lecturers entering the service after 31 March 1988 have received additional increments for postgraduate qualifications;

  (2) how many cases there are of lecturers entering the service after 31 March 1988, whereby the Department has exercised discretion with regard to salary placements under the 1988 further education teachers' salaries regulation.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information is not available in the form requested and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Stott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many lecturers transferred from the youth training programme establishment to the mainstream further education establishment in each college at the end of September.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The number of lecturers who transferred from the YTP establishment to the mainstream further education establishment in each college in September 1990 was as follows:

  FE Colleges

  Transfers

  Belfast College of Technology

  2

  Belfast College of Business Studies

  —

  Rupert Stanley College

  —

  North West College

  —

  Fermanagh

  —

  Limavady

  —

  Omagh

  1

  Antrim

  2

  Ballymena

  4

  Newtownabbey

  8

  Ballymoney

  3

  Coleraine

  —

  Magherafelt

  —

  Larne

  3

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College

  —

  Lisburn

  —

  Down

  —

  Newcastle

  —

  Castlereagh

  —

  North Down and Ards

  —

  Lurgan

  —

  Portadown

  —

  Armagh

  1

  Banbridge

  2

  East Tyrone

  —

  Newry/Kilkeel

  3

  Salary Placements
  Mr. Stott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement regarding details of any guidance issued by the Department to those involved in determining salary placements as to the circumstances under which discretion may be exercised.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Department of Education for Northern Ireland determines the salaries of teachers in Northern Ireland's grant-aided schools. Under the teachers' salaries regulations, incremental credit is awarded to a newly appointed teacher in respect of previous experience which the Department considers to be of value to him in the performance of his duty.
  362
  In exercising this discretion, the Department awards the credit for previous experience which has relevance to service as a teacher and is of equivalent professional standard to teaching.

HEALTH

  Nuclear Casualties
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list all the hospitals in England and Wales that have been designated to accept nuclear-contaminated casualties; and if he will show in his answer those hospitals that have expressed an interest in national health service trust status.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The following hospitals have been designated for decontamination and treatment of contaminated casualties. Those which have applied to become national health service trusts from April 1991 are shown with an asterisk.

  ENGLAND
  East Anglia RHA

  Addenbrook's Hospital

  Norfolk and Norwich Hospital

  The Ipswich Hospital

  Mersey RHA

  *Royal Liverpool Hospital

  North East Thames RHA

  *Southend General Hospital

  Colchester General Hospital

  Northern RHA

  Cumberland Infirmary

  West Cumberland Hospital

  Furness General Hospital

  Royal Victoria Infirmary

  Middlesbrough General Hospital

  North Western RHA

  *Christie Hospital

  Hope Hospital

  *Manchester Royal Infirmary

  North West Thames RHA

  St. Mary's Hospital, Paddington

  *Mount Vernon Hospital

  Charing Cross Hospital

  Hammersmith Hospital

  Oxford RHA

  John Radcliffe Hospital

  Northampton General Hospital

  Royal Berkshire Hospital

  South East Thames RHA

  *Guys Hospital

  Kent and Canterbury Hospital

  *Royal Sussex County Hospital

  South Western RHA

  *Bristol Radiotherapy Centre

  *Cheltenham General Hospital

  City Hospital, Truro

  Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital

  Gloucester Royal Hospital

  Derriford General Hospital

  *Musgrove Park Hospital

  *Torbay Hospital, Torquay

  South West Thames RHA

  *Royal Surrey County Hospital

  St. Georges Hospital, SW17

  Royal Marsden, Fulham

  Royal Marsden, Sutton

  (The Hammersmith Hospital)

  University College Hospital

  Trent RHA

  Lincoln County Hospital

  Derbyshire Royal Infirmary

  Leicester Royal Infirmary

  Royal Hallamshire Hospital

  University Hospital Nottingham

  Wessex RHA

  Southampton General Hospital

  Queen Alexandra's Hospital, Portsmouth

  Poole General Hospital

  West Midlands RHA

  The Royal Hospital, Wolverhampton

  North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary

  Selly Oak Hospital

  Yorkshire RHA

  *Leeds General Infirmary

  *Bradford Royal Infirmary

  Hull Royal Infirmary

  WALES
  Cardiff Royal Infirmary

  Morriston Hospital

  Ysbyty Gwynedd

  Elderly People
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans his Department has to introduce a new code of practice for day and domiciliary care for elderly people.

  Mr. Dorrell
  There are no plans, at present, to publish such a code of practice. The need for central guidance will be considered as part of the development of the new community care arrangements.

  Junior Doctors
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what financial resources will be made available to support the recommendations of the departmental working party on the hours worked by junior doctors.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I am currently chairing a ministerial group on junior doctors' hours. The group, representing all key parties, aims to reach broad agreement in principle on specific changes before the end of the year. Resource implications are being discussed in the context of that agreement.

  Disabled People
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he will list the local authority associations which have responded to his letter inviting costings estimates on sections 1 to 3 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986; and if he will list those which gave detailed costings;

  (2) what procedures have local authority associations identified as incurring costs under sections 1 and 2 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986; and if he will list the estimated cost of each procedure;

  (3) what procedures have local authority associations identified as incurring costs under section 3 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986; and if he will list the estimated cost of each procedure.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether advocates appointed under sections 1 and 2 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 will receive payment for their service;
  364
  (2) if he will make it his policy that a doctor's certificate which states that an individual is unable to appoint his own authorised representative under sections 1 and 2 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 will be issued free of charge.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Association of Metropolitan Authorities and the Association of County Councils have both responded in detail to our invitation to submit cost estimates for these sections. The associations have provisionally identified a number of areas as incurring extra costs, to an estimated annual total in England in excess of £20 million. This estimate includes some provision for payment from local authority funds to authorised representatives and to doctors providing medical opinions in some circumstances. It does not include any provision for increase in services in response to the extra demand which these sections would generate. Our discussions with the local authority associations are continuing.

  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on his visit to Cleveland social services department to view the pilot implementation of sections 1 to 3 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986.

  Mr. Dorrell
  My hon. Friend the Minister for Health met representatives of Cleveland social services department on 3 October to discuss the pilot exercise. The meeting was a useful source of information on the potential practical implications which implementation of these sections would involve, and on the extent of the overlap which could arise between these provisions and those to be introduced as a result of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990. We are giving further consideration to these aspects in the context of our on-going discussions with the local authority associations.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what action he is taking in the light of the recommendations in the sixth and 11th reports of the Social Services Select Committee to implement sections 1 to 3 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 as soon as possible.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Government will reply to the Select Committee's recommendations as soon as possible.

  Child Abuse
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what has been the reported number of child abuse cases in each of the 32 London boroughs in each of the last three years.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The number of reported cases of child abuse is not collected centrally. Information is collected centrally about the number of children and young persons on child protection registers and the number of names added to the register. This is published in "Children and Young Persons on Child Protection Registers for the year ending 31 March" and is available in the Library. Data for the year ended 31 March 1990 are provisional. Data for the year ended 31 March 1988 represent the results of a pilot survey.

  Neurosciences (Transfer)
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the relationship between the increase in the cost of transferring
  365
  neurosciences from the Brook hospital to the King's and Maudsley hospitals complex, the calculation involving the original cost of £27 million announced on 11 April 1989 by the then Minister of State and the present cost estimated at £50 million or more.

  Mr. Dorrell
  When the scheme was first submitted to the Department for approval in 1987 the cost at national average building rates was estimated to be £27 million. This figure subsisted throughout the approval in principle stage for comparative purposes.

  In April 1989 the estimated costs were £42·5 million taking account of the rise in national building costs since 1987 and the additional costs of building in London.

  The most recent estimate is that the total cost, taking full account of inflation since 1989 and the additional costs of building in London, has risen to £50·5 million.

  Residential Care
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of pensioners in Durham county and the United Kingdom live in sheltered housing and residential care.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Information is not available in the form requested.

  In the local authority of Durham at 31 March 1989, 2·6 per cent. of the population aged 65 and over were in residential care accommodation, compared with 3·1 per cent. in England as a whole.

  Local authorities in England report annually the numbers of sheltered dwellings in their areas to the

  Number of homes, places and residents in residential homes primarily for elderly people and younger people who are physically handicapped, by sector

  Homes

  Places

  Residents

  Local authority

  Voluntary

  Private

  Local authority

  Voluntary

  Private

  Local authority

  Voluntary

  Private

  Durham

  1980

  43

  2

  5

  1,745

  33

  113

  1,728

  30

  102

  1985

  44

  4

  62

  1,842

  141

  217

  1,766

  114

  196

  1989

  44

  6

  108

  1,829

  161

  1,026

  1,585

  144

  905

  England

  1980

  2,638

  1,107

  2,278

  114,103

  34,957

  35,764

  107,852

  30,665

  30,495

  1985

  2,672

  1,108

  5,200

  116,080

  37,466

  80,041

  105,864

  31,423

  69,000

  1989

  2,602

  1,068

  8,303

  109,194

  34,166

  135,369

  98,269

  30,663

  114,106

  Influenza Vaccine
  Dame Jill Knight
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to ensure that general medical practitioners are aware that extra influenza vaccine has been made available to fulfil all needs of at risk patients.

  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department has obtained enough influenza vaccine to meet the demand from general practitioners; and what arrangements are being made to publicise the availability of this vaccine.

  Mr. Dorrell
  A number of steps have been taken to ensure an adequate supply of influenza vaccine. Over 3,600,000 doses of vaccine were made available this autumn. The Department has also arranged for the manufacture of a further 1 million doses which will be available from this week, providing a total supply of 45 per cent. more than last year.
  366
  Department of the Environment. The latest figures, for April 1990, are available in the Library. I understand that there are no estimates of the proportion of pensioners who live in sheltered dwellings.

  Residents aged 65 and over in residential accommodation in England at 31 March 1989

  Durham

  England

  Homes for Elderly and Younger Physically Handicapped People

  2,458

  232,336

  All Homes

  2,469

  235,703

  Population aged 65 and over

  93,201

  7,522,568

  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many private registered homes, voluntary registered homes, and local authority homes for the elderly there were in(a) Durham county and (b) the United Kingdom in 1980, 1985 and for the latest available year; how many places these provided and how many residents there were in each of these years.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The information available is given in the table. Data refer to homes catering primarily for people who are elderly or younger people who are physically handicapped. Data for these two groups were not collected separately for all of the years requested.

  Information relating to Scotland is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and information for Northern Ireland and Wales is a matter for my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland and for Wales.

  The Department wrote to all family health services Authority general managers on 22 November informing them of the arrangements made to provide the further 1 million doses, a copy of which is available in the Library.

  Mentally Handicapped People
  Mr. O'Brien
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will give details of the scheme to provide facilities for the relocation of mentally handicapped people in the community in the Normanton constituency, described in the Official Report, 16 October, column 1039.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The scheme in question is the Wakefield and Pontefract case management scheme. I suggest the hon. Member contacts Sir Bryan Askew, the chairman of the Yorkshire regional health authority, for further details.

  Smoked Salmon
  Mr. Morley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to protect the trade in postal orders for smoked salmon which may be affected by the new regulations in the food Bill.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Food Hygiene (Amendment) Regulations 1990 will require certain foods to be kept chilled unless the processing of the food or the method of packaging can be shown to prevent the growth of pathogenic micro-organisms at ambient temperature. Smoked fish is one of the relevant foods. Research is taking place to see how the industry can best adapt to the new regulations.

  Sheep Dips
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what research is currently being undertaken into the effect on human health of those exposed to organo-phosphorus sheep dips.

  Mr. Forth
  I have been asked to reply.

  The Health and Safety Executive's south-west region is conducting a regional project on the risk from organo-phosphorus sheep dip. The study aims to develop information about the uptake of organo-phosphorus and possibly other solvents and phenols by operators and bystanders in the sheep-dipping season and relate this information to symptoms reported in the farming community.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Income Support
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the current level of income support benefits received by(a) a single householder aged under 25 years, (b) a single householder with disabilities aged under 25 years, (c) a pensioner couple, (d) a pensioner couple with disabilities and (e) an unemployed man with dependent wife and two children aged five and 11 years; and in each case what would they have received if the pre-April 1988 system of supplementary benefits were still operating.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  The question is not sufficiently specific concerning the circumstances of each beneficiary to enable an assessment to be made of what benefit they might have been entitled to under the old scheme. In addition, it would not be possible to calculate the likely entitlement of these individuals today, had the old scheme stayed in place, since it is not possible to say how the scheme would have evolved in response to changing circumstances.

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is his estimate of(a) the effect on the future number of income support claimants of the proposal to reduce the definition of full-time work from 24 hours to 16 hours and (b) the number of existing claimants who would lose entitlement if there were no transitional protection; and, in each case, if he will subdivide the figures into the childless, two-parent families and one-parent families.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  Many families who are working part time will be better off as a result of the reduction in 368
  the remunerative work from 24 hours to 16 hours, because they will become entitled to family credit. Some people who are currently claiming income support will also be encouraged to take up employment, and therefore transfer from income support to family credit. We will introduce protection for those claimants who need it at the point of change.

  The information requested is in the table.

  Number of claimants transferring from income support to family credit at point of change

  Number of claimants who would cease to receive income support at point of change if no protection available

  Childless

  nil

  15,000

  Couples with children

  10,000

  15,000

  Lone parents

  25,000

  30,000

  Source: Modelled using data drawn from the 1985–86–87 Family Expenditure Surveys.

  Note: The figures do not allow for the effects of the introduction of Disability Working Allowance.

PRIME MINISTER

  European Energy Charter
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Prime Minister whether Her Majesty's Government will actively support the proposal of President Delors and the Netherlands for a European energy charter for the whole of Europe.

  The Prime Minister
  We have supported the development of this initiative to date and expect to be able to do so in the future.

  Cambodia
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Prime Minister how many letters, cards, messages and phone calls she has received concerning Cambodia since 8 October.

  The Prime Minister
  I have received over 1,000 representations concerning Cambodia.

  Press Secretary
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Prime Minister by what authority her press secretary issued any briefings to the media in regard to her leadership campaign for the Conservative and Unionist party.

  The Prime Minister
  My press secretary has represented my interests as Prime Minister.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Medical Research Council
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how much funding has been provided for the Medical Research Council in the current year.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  Grant in aid to the council this financial year will total £185·7 million.

  Grammar Schools
  Mr. Roger King
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many grammar schools there presently are in England and Wales.

  Mr. Fallon
  In January 1989 there were 150 grammar schools in the maintained sector in England. The provisional estimate for January 1990 is the same. Welsh schools are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales.

  Education Administration Budgets
  Mr. Jack
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to ensure that children's education is not adversely affected by the size of a local authority's budget for education administration.

  Mr. Fallon
  My right hon. and learned Friend and I have made it clear that we are determined that LEAs should reduce the proportion of resources which they hold back for spending on central bureaucracies and other central services. We shall be publishing a draft circular next month which will consult on proposals to that end.

  Bradford CTC
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the total amount of grant aid in 1989 and 1990 for the city technology college in Bradford.

  Mr. Eggar
  Total grant aid to the Bradford CTC was £2·9 million in the 1989–90 financial year for management and capital costs. So far this financial year, costs, including running costs, total £4 million.

  Education Policies
  Mr. Campbell-Savours
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received as to the impact of the Government's policies for education on the north and north-west of England.

  Mr. Eggar
  My right hon. and learned Friend receives such representations from time to time.

  Student Loans Company
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has been the total cost to date of establishing in Glasgow the headquarters of the Student Loans Company.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  The Student Loans Company opened for business early in September. The total costs of establishing the student loans scheme to 31 August 1990 were £9·3 million, exclusive of VAT.

  Stratford School, Newham
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science on what grounds he approved the local management of schools application on behalf of Stratford school, Newham.

  Mr. Eggar
  I presume that the hon. Member means "grant-maintained status" and not "local management of 370
  schools". My right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State approved grant-maintained status for Stratford school because he judged that it was capable of providing cost-effectively for pupils aged 11 to 18, and that it was capable of maintaining and improving its performance under new management.

  Education Expenditure (London)
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the current annual expenditure per child at(a) Sylvan city technology college and (b) local authority secondary schools in London.

  Mr. Fallon
  Funding for Sylvan city technology college has not yet been finalised, but the provisional annual per capita grant (APG) for 1990–91 is some' £2,845 per pupil. The annual school-based expenditure at local authority secondary schools in London in 1988–89, the latest year for which this information is available, was some £2,095 per pupil.

  It should be noted that these figures are not comparable in coverage. The local authority figure excludes central local education authority spending on such items as home to school transport and central administration; Sylvan's APG has to cover such items, and also includes an element to cover diseconomies of scale in the early years of operation. Sylvan CTC is also eligible for earmarked annual grant for particular purposes, in addition to its APG but not on a per capita basis.

  Teacher Training
  Mr. Harry Barnes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many representations he has received in the current year concerning the funding of in-service teacher training.

  Mr. Fallon
  The Department receives many letters and other representations about in-service teacher training generally. This year we have had around 40 letters which have raised funding issues. These are in addition to the bids which LEAs have submitted for support for training under next year's grants for education support and training programme.

  Nursery Education
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has to provide access to nursery education for children in every local education authority.

  Mr. Eggar
  The Government believe in a diversity of provision for the under-fives. Maintained nursery schools and classes are an important element within this diversity and the numbers of pupils attending them have increased by over 40 per cent. during the period of the present Government.

  Higher Education
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he next proposes to meet the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals to discuss the expansion of higher education in the period 1990 to 2000.
  371
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I have already met representatives of the CVCP to discuss the recent public expenditure settlement and its provision for the further expansion of higher education. I expect to meet them again soon.

  Teachers
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many students qualified to be teachers left the university of Wales and the teacher training colleges of Wales at the end of each academic year since 1984–85; how many qualified in each of the main subjects; and how many were qualified to teach their subject through the medium of Welsh.

  Mr. Fallon
  The number of students who left the university of Wales qualified to be teachers at the end of each academic year since 1984–85 is shown in the table. Information is not held centrally on the subjects in which they qualified and how many were qualified to teach through the medium of Welsh.

  The University of Wales Students qualifying as teachers

  Academic year

  Students qualifying

  1984–85

  573

  1985–86

  511

  1986–87

  493

  1987–88

  525

  1988–89

  501

  The number of students who left the teacher training colleges of Wales since academic year 1984–85 qualified as teachers, and the subjects in which they qualified, are shown in the tables. Information is not held centrally on how many were qualified to teach through the medium of Welsh.

  Teacher Training Colleges of Wales Students qualifying as Teachers

  Main subjects

  Students 1984–85

  Primary School

  287

  Middle School

  16

  Mathematics

  27

  Chemistry

  —

  Physics

  —

  Biological Sciences

  —

  Combined Sciences

  24

  Welsh

  —

  English

  2

  Other languages

  —

  History

  —

  Geography

  —

  Religious Education

  2

  Craft, design and technology

  32

  Commercial and Business Studies

  25

  Art/art and light Craft

  23

  Home economics/needlework

  3

  Music

  5

  Physical Education

  37

  Other

  7

  Total

  490

  Teacher Training Colleges of Wales Students qualifying as Teachers

  Main subjects

  Students 1985–86

  Art or Art and Craft

  33

  Biological Sciences

  8

  Commercial Studies

  8

  372

  Main subjects

  Students 1985–86

  Craft and Design Technology

  38

  Drama

  5

  Education

  132

  English

  38

  Environmental Science

  4

  Geography

  10

  History

  14

  Home Economics

  2

  Mathematics

  25

  Modern Languages

  1

  Music

  15

  Needlecraft

  2

  Physical Education

  10

  Religious Education Studies

  4

  Science

  12

  Welsh

  24

  Mathematics and Physics

  6

  Combination of Arts Subjects

  18

  Interdisciplinary Studies

  28

  Other Subjects

  55

  Humanities

  16

  Scientific Studies

  5

  Not known

  24

  Total

  537

  Teacher training colleges of Wales students qualifying as Teachers

  Main subjects

  Students 1986–87

  Art or Art and Craft

  32

  Biological Sciences

  6

  Commercial Studies

  12

  Craft and Design Technology

  45

  Drama

  11

  Education

  114

  English

  42

  Environmental Science

  3

  Geography

  22

  History

  16

  Mathematics

  24

  Music

  26

  Needlecraft

  4

  Physical Education

  19

  Primary School Curriculum

  56

  Religious Education Studies

  24

  Science

  16

  Welsh

  22

  Combination of Arts Subjects

  30

  Interdisciplinary Studies

  55

  Other Subjects

  70

  Humanities

  21

  Scientific Studies

  7

  Not Known

  1

  Total

  678

  Teacher Training Colleges of Wales Students qualifying as Teachers

  Main Subjects

  Students 1987–88

  Art or Art and Craft

  49

  Commercial Studies

  27

  Craft and Design Technology

  32

  Drama

  8

  Education

  110

  English

  34

  Environmental Science

  2

  General Science

  10

  Geography

  21

  History

  19

  Mathematics

  19

  Music

  26

  Needlecraft

  1

  Physical Education

  30

  373

  Main Subjects

  Students 1987–88

  Primary School Curriculum

  44

  Religious Education Studies

  21

  Science

  32

  Welsh

  16

  Combination of Arts Subjects

  43

  Interdisciplinary Studies

  47

  Other Subjects

  55

  Humanities

  14

  Scientific Studies

  7

  Total

  667

  Teacher Training Colleges of Wales Students qualifying as Teachers

  Main Subjects

  Students 1988–89

  Environmental Science and other Physical Science

  16

  Mathematics

  30

  Geography

  13

  Business and Management Studies

  30

  English

  35

  Celtic Languages

  19

  History

  28

  Theology and Religious Studies

  16

  Design Studies

  38

  Music

  29

  Drama

  21

  Art and Design (Other)

  50

  Physical Education

  29

  Academic Studies in Education

  129

  Education for Those with Special Needs

  19

  Other Topics in Education

  70

  Combined or General Science

  28

  Combined or General Arts

  13

  Other Combined or General Courses

  64

  Total

  677

  Educational Psychologists
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what figures he has on the total numbers of children referred by their school to see educational psychologists and of those currently waiting to do so.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  This information is not collected centrally.

  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps are being taken to reduce the waiting lists for the school psychological service for pupils in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  The management of its psychology service is a matter for the individual local education authority. The Department provides specific funds to local education authorities in England, under the grants for education support and training, for the training of educational psychologists. In the current year £2·8 million was made available for this purpose.

  Education establishments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are the responsibility of the respective Secretaries of State.

  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to ensure that the shortfall in the take-up of grants for the initial training of educational psychologists goes to training prospective educational psychologists.
  374
  Mr. Alan Howarth
  In the current year, the grant for educational psychologists under the local education authority training grants scheme was sufficient to meet all local education authorities' needs. The small amount of grant not taken up by LEAs this year has been transferred to meet urgent needs in other national priority areas in the special education field.

  Access Funds
  Mr. Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what are the rules governing the eligibility of a student to apply for money from access funds.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  The following students in publicly funded institutions are eligible to apply to their institutions:

  undergraduates: all full-time and sandwich home students in higher education at undergraduate level;

  postgraduates: all full-time home students in higher reducation studying at levels above first degree; and

  students in further education: all full-time and sandwich home students in further education aged 19 and over.

  It is for each individual institution to draw up criteria for determining which applicants should receive support.

  Disabled Students
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many schools of higher education have wheelchair access; and how many are currently making the transition.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  As autonomous bodies, higher education institutions are responsible for determining what provision to make to meet the needs of students with disabilities. This is not monitored centrally.

  LEA Capital Funds
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what arrangements he makes for ensuring that sufficient capital funds are available to areas of known rapid population expansion for timely planning and construction of schools without prejudice to current and future interest of existing and future populations of the relevant local education authority.

  Mr. Fallon
  It is for local education authorities to ensure that they provide sufficient school places. In distributing annual capital guidelines to authorities, my right hon. and learned Friend gives priority, after allowing for existing commitments, to their plans for providing new school places in areas of population growth. Priority is then given to plans to remove surplus capacity, to new building projects at colleges of further education and, as resources allow, to programmes to replace or refurbish existing school premises.

  Parental Choice
  Mr. Harry Greenway
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he is taking to increase parental choice of schools; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Fallon
  The Government have already taken measures in the Education Reform Act 1988 to remove the artificial restrictions placed by some local education authorities on the number of pupils admitted to particular
  375
  schools, thus increasing parents' chances of getting a place for their child at the school of their choice. The relevant provisions of the Act were brought into force for secondary schools in August this year. My right hon. and learned Friend is currently considering the timing of their introduction in the primary sector. The Government have also ensured that parents have more information about schools through prospectuses and annual reports. Parental choice is being further extended through the creation of grant-maintained schools and city technology colleges.

  Physical Education
  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he intends to set up a survey of the state of school sport; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  The terms of reference of the national curriculum working group on physical education require the group to make recommendations on attainment targets and programmes of study for PE, including competitive sport. The Government are also currently undertaking a review of their policies and priorities for sport, which will include sport in schools. However, my right hon. and learned Friend has no plans to undertake a separate survey on the state of school sport.

  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he intends to set up a register on the current availability of school playing fields; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Fallon
  No. The provision of school playing fields is a mattter for local education authorities and others directly responsible for schools.

  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what information his Department has about the current provision of swimming lessons in schools; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  Evidence on the provision of swimming instruction in schools is provided through the visits and reports of Her Majesty's inspectorate. The Government recognise the value of young people being taught to swim as part of a programme of physical education.

  Religious Education
  Sir Peter Emery
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how much time he estimates should be spent under the national curriculum on the teaching of religious education; and what proportion of that should be spent on the study of the Christian faith.

  Mr. Eggar
  Religious education must be included alongside the national curriculum in the basic curriculum of all maintained schools. In county schools, the content of RE must be in accordance with a locally agreed syllabus drawn up by a conference convened by the local education authority. My right hon. and learned Friend has no power to prescribe how much time should be spent on individual subjects, but he has made clear his view that in drawing up an agreed syllabus the conference should assume that a reasonable time will be available for the study of RE.

  Pensions Branch, Darlington
  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has for the future of the Department of Education and Science pensions branch in Darlington; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  We are currently considering whether the pensions branch should be identified as a candidate for agency status, in the light of a feasibility study conducted earlier this year.

  Soil and Rock Formation
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has asked the British Geological Survey to carry out a survey of soil and rock formation in England and Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  Systematic geological surveys in Great Britain are one of the main tasks of the British Geological Survey, for which it is funded mainly through the science vote. The soil survey of England and Wales was transferred in July 1987 from the Agricultural and Food Research Council to the Cranfield institute of technology, to form part of the soil survey and land use research centre funded by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

  Grant-maintained Schools
  Mr. Lewis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many primary schools have expressed interest to his Department in opting out.

  Mr. Eggar
  We have received large numbers of inquiries about becoming grant-maintained from primary schools. Since the announcement on 10 October that all primary schools would be able to apply for GM status, more than 40,000 copies of our explanatory leaflet for parents have been requested by schools. The majority of these requests have come from primary schools.

  Teaching Unions
  Mr. Adley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to meet the teaching unions to discuss educational policy; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I and my hon. Friends expect to have meetings from time to time with the teaching unions on a range of educational policy matters.

DEFENCE

  Gulf Forces
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what arrangements have been made to provide service personnel with the ability to telephone the United Kingdom and Germany.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  We are giving urgent consideration, in consultation with British Telecom, Mercury and Cable and Wireless, to the establishment of a welfare telephone link between the Gulf and the United Kingdom and Germany. A trial system is currently being tested.
  377
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what arrangements have been made to provide the families of service personnel in the Gulf region with facilities to visit the area.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  There are no plans to introduce such arrangements.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the intended length of tours of duty for service -personnel in the Gulf region.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  It is intended that service personnel now being deployed to the Gulf will serve a tour of duty of about six months. The precise duration will depend on a number of factors and will be governed by operational considerations.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether there are any plans for Combined Services Entertainment to stage any productions in the Gulf region.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Yes.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the military equipment sent to the Gulf region will be included within the forthcoming treaty on conventional forces in Europe.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  United . Kingdom equipment deployed to the Gulf will continue to be treated for the purposes of the CFE treaty as if it remained within that treaty's area of application, and has been included within the equipment totals declared for the purposes of that treaty.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence . what steps have been taken to establish libraries for service personnel in the Gulf region.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Regular supplies of paperback books are sent to the Gulf. We are keeping under review the requirement to establish formal libraries.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether there are any plans for the Services Sound and Vision Corporation to set up(a) cinemas or (b) video libraries in the Gulf region.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The Services Sound and Vision Corporation plans to have two mobile cinemas operating in the area early next month. Several hundred video cassettes have already been sent to the Gulf, together with televisions and video recorders.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the Services Sound and Vision Corporation or the British Forces Broadcasting Service intend to broadcast any material in the Gulf region.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The Services Sound and Vision Corporation is already making regular short-wave broadcasts to the Gulf. As I announced yesterday, we have decided to expand the broadcasting facilities in the area by providing VHF facilities in Saudi Arabia to broadcast British Forces Broadcasting Service programmes. This will provide coverage in the area of eastern Saudi Arabia from December. In addition, trials are to be undertaken this month of broadcasting further BFBS programmes using short-wave transmissions from Cyprus.
  378
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether there are sufficient supplies of buttons for the desert uniforms for British soldiers stationed in the Gulf.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Yes. There was a temporary shortage of one size of button in the initial stages of the production of desert combat clothing, but this problem has now been overcome.

  Racial Discrimination
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what further steps he is taking, following the judgment in the case of Stephen Anderson, to prevent racial discrimination in the armed services.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The services are fully integrated non-discriminatory organisations and discrimination is not tolerated. Any complaint of racial discrimination will be thoroughly investigated and if substantiated disciplinary action will be taken against those found to have been involved. The Anderson judgment relates not to this policy but to the procedures followed by the Army Board in dealing with claims of racial discrimination brought under the Race Relations Act 1976. As soon as the final, approved, judgment has been received the Ministry of Defence will consider in detail what changes may be necessary to service procedures to conform with the judgment.

  The Gulf (Floating Hospital)
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the cost of the floating hospital in the Gulf developed from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Argus.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The costs of equipping the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Argus for her role as a primary casualty receiving ship amounted to £2·5 million.

  Desert Camouflage
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when British troops in the desert will be kitted out in desert camouflage or khaki drill; and what use has been made of British Army studies of desert kit and camouflage.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Sufficient desert combat clothing has been delivered to the Gulf for an initial issue to the troops already deployed there, and further quantities are being purchased to meet future requirements. As a result of recent Ministry of Defence studies the Army's new desert clothing incorporates a number of improvements, including a change in the design of the trousers, and the use of new materials with a special disruptive camouflage pattern for desert use.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what studies he has done of the operational effectiveness of the SA80 assault rifle in desert camouflage conditions.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The SA80 individual weapon has proven on a number of hot weather trials conducted over the last two years that it performs well in severe desert conditions. Camouflage requirements depend on local terrain, and any additional provision is determined by commanders in the field.
  379
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the new desert uniforms being supplied to British troops stationed in the Gulf are of the same pattern as uniforms exported in the last 10 years.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The desert combat clothing being supplied to the British forces in the Gulf is of a new design based on improvements in tropical uniforms. These improvements include a change in the design of the trousers and the use of new materials, incorporating a special disruptive camouflage pattern for desert use.

  Air Defence System
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the improved United Kingdom air defence ground environment command and control system is due to come into operational service; what system is in operation in the meantime; and if he will make a statement as to how the ICCS will operate.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The integrated command and control system (ICCS) of the improved United Kingdom air defence ground environment (IUKADGE) is a computer system which will gather basic data relating to the air defence of the United Kingdom from a variety of sources (ground radars, early warning aircraft, fighters and ships, and NATO sources); process this information to maintain recognised air and sea pictures (RASP) and resource data catalogue (RDC) information files; provide assistance to operators to enable them to recognise hostile aircraft and to optimise the use of air defence assets to respond to such threats; and provide necessary supporting communications. Operating centres will be able to contribute to a common database and to assume other sites' tasks in the event of damage or loss. The quality, quantity and consistency of management information will be enhanced, so improving tactical decision making and resource management, as compared with the existing UKADGE system. In the latter, sites are linked only by a simple datalink and communications systems; command and control is exercised on a mixture of manual and semi-automatic systems; and the amount of shared data is limited.

  The ICCS programme has suffered from substantial delays. We now expect it to be in full operational service by the mid-1990s.

  Cruise Missile
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what problems have been encountered in the development of the new air-launched cruise missile; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the replacement system for our WE177 free-fall nuclear bomb. We are currently considering both French and United States options, but no decision has yet been taken. Accordingly the question of development does not yet arise.

  Hunting
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the hunts that have licences allowing them access to hunt on land held by his Department; and if he will list which land each licence covers.
  380
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The hunts that have licences allowing them to hunt on Ministry of Defence land and the areas covered by the licences are as follows:

  Hunt and Area Used

  The Hampshire Hunt—Longmoor

  Mr. Goschen's Hounds—Longmoor, Hankley, Camberley and Ash

  The Chiddingfold, Leconfield and Cowdray Hounds-Longmoor

  The Windsor Forest Blood Hounds—Camberley

  The Royal Artillery Hunt—Salisbury Plain West

  The South and West Wilts Hunt—Salisbury Plain West

  The Avondale Hunt—Salisbury Plain West

  The Sennybridge Hunt—Sennybridge

  The Irfon and Tywi Hunt—Sennybridge

  The Brecon Hunt—Sennybridge

  The Glyn Celyn Beagles—Sennybridge

  The Essex and Suffolk Hunt—Colchester

  The Cambridgeshire Hunt—Brampton Wood

  The Bedale Hunt—Ripon Parks and Catterick

  The West of Yore Hunt—Ripon Parks and Catterick

  The Zetland Hunt—Feldom and Catterick

  The Wensleydale Foxhounds—Stainton and Bellerby

  The Catterick Beagles—Feldom and Catterick

  The Border Hunt—Otterburn

  The Tynedale Hunt—Ouston

  Computers
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the CM (CIPMIS) computer; what is its function; who has access to it; and where it is located.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The CIPMIS system contains computerised basic personnel records of all non-industrial civil servants in the Ministry of Defence. It is used to help personnel management to make decisions on the posting and promotion of individual members of staff. Information in respect of individuals is available to the relevant personnel managers; aggregated information is available more generally within the Department. The system is located at the computer bureau at Devizes and is controlled by officials based in Bath.

  RAF Macrihanish
  Mr. Rogers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the purpose of the construction works in the contract let to Amey Construction at RAF Macrihanish.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The contract let to Amey Construction at RAF Macrihanish is to construct dispersed aircraft parking platforms and associated connecting taxitrack for use by SACLANT assigned maritime patrol aircraft.

  Mr. Rogers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the estimated cost of the construction work being undertaken at RAF Macrihanish by Amey Construction; and whether the total cost is being met out of his Ministry's budget.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The details of the contract for work being undertaken at RAF Macrihanish by Amey Construction are "Contracts in Confidence" and, as such, cannot be released. However, the cost is being met entirely from NATO infrastructure funds; the Ministry of Defence will pay the VAT element only.

  Iraq (Uranium)
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he possesses on current uranium mining in Iraq and on future Iraqi potential to convert natural uranium yellowcake to weapons grade material.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Iraq is a signatory to the non-proliferation treaty and has concluded a full-scope safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) under which its nuclear facilities must be regularly inspected. Iraq extracts uranium as a by-product of the processing of phosphates to make fertilisers at Al Qaim close to the border with Syria. Since uranium ore (yellowcake) is not subject to safeguards inspections we are unable to state the total amount produced. No additional deposits of uranium ore have been identified within the country.

  If Iraq wishes to produce enriched uranium it would require a facility to convert the yellowcake into a form suitable for enrichment and also an enrichment plant. We have no evidence of the existence of such facilities and, should it build them, Iraq would be obliged to declare them for safeguards inspections under its agreement with the IAEA.

  Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he has had any discussions with his United States counterpart concerning the deployment in the United Kingdom and other European NATO countries of new B61–4/10 nuclear warheads made from modified W85 warheads withdrawn from Pershing II missiles under the treaty of Washington on intermediate nuclear forces.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Details of discussions between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government are confidential.

EMPLOYMENT

  Training and Enterprise Councils
  Mr. McCartney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many of the members of training and enterprise councils represent(a) employers, (b) trades unions and (c) others; if he will classify in broad terms the categories from which members under (c) are drawn; what information is held on the political affiliation of members of training and enterprise councils; and whether any members are nominated by political groupings.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information requested on board members is set out in the table and refers to the 41 operational training and enterprise councils. The role of TECs is to engage employers more fully in the training process. It is not their function to represent sectional interests in their local community. Board members are, therefore, appointed as individuals in their own right.

  The number of board members drawn from the various sectors is as follows:

  (a) Employers—378

  (b) Trades Unions—29

  (c) Other—137

  The "other" category can be broken down into:

  Local authority—50

  Education—59

  Voluntary organisation—20

  Employer association—8

  382
  Information is not kept on the political affiliation of TEC members. Board members are not drawn from political groupings.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how much money training and enterprise councils have spent in total on outside consultants.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information is not available.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment which consultancies have been employed by training and enterprise councils; and how much money each has received in fees for developing corporate or strategic plans.

  Mr. Jackson
  Training and enterprise councils are independent private companies. The consultants employed by them and the fees paid are a matter for individual TECs.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many(a) chief executives of training and enterprise councils and (b) other staff, excluding outside employees, have chosen (i) to resign civil service status and (ii) to retain such status.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information requested is set out in the table and refers to the 41 operational training and enterprise councils.

  Number

  (a) (i) Chief Executives who have resigned Civil Service status

  4

  (ii) Chief Executives who have retained Civil Service status

  23

  (b) (i) Other staff who have resigned Civil Service status

  —

  (ii) Other staff who have retained Civil Service status

  2,156

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what allocation of resources has been made to the training and enterprise councils towards the training of the lower ability range of potential trainees.

  Mr. Jackson
  Budgets for training and enterprise councils are negotiated with individual TECs, based on proposals set out in their corporate and business plans. These plans set out how the needs of trainees of all ability levels including those from the lower ability range are to be addressed.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many of the training and enterprise council chief executives designated or appointed have been recruited from(a) outside the civil service and (b) outside the Training Agency.

  Mr. Jackson
  Sixty-four of the 82 training and enterprise councils have appointed or designated a chief executive to date. Of these, 25 were recruited from outside both the civil service and the Department of Employment.

  Labour Statistics
  Mr. Oppenheim
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give figures for unemployment in the east midlands region in 1985 and 1990.

  Mr. Jackson
  The level of unemployment, seasonally adjusted, in the east midlands, was 102,900 or 5·3 per cent. in October 1990 compared with 185,400 or 9·8 per cent. in October 1985.
  383
  Mr. Oppenheim
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the level of unemployment in Amber Valley in 1985 and 1990.

  Mr. Jackson
  In October 1990 the numbers of unemployed claimants, not seasonally adjusted, in the Amber Valley parliamentary constituency were 1,958. This compares with 4,057 in October 1985 and represents a fall of 51·7 per cent.

  Technical and Vocational Education Initiative
  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he expects local education authorities to be told their financial allocations for 1991–92 for the technical and vocational education initiative; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  My officials are now confirming the TVEI finances available in 1991–92 with each local education authority. The Government are fully committed to the TVEI. A total of £900 million is available to extend the initiative to all 14 to 18-year-olds in maintained schools and colleges. One hundred and three education authorities are now in the extension phase of the TVEI. I am very pleased with the progress that has been made.

  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will set out, in 1989 prices, the level of funding for the technical and vocational education initiative for 1989–90, 1990–91, and 1991–92.

  Mr. Jackson
  Funding levels, in cash prices, for the years requested are as follows:

  £ million

  1989–90

  129·3 (actual expenditure)

  1990–91

  134·1 (estimates provision)

  1991–92

  141·6 (PES allocation)

  The figures are not available in 1989 prices.

  Toxic Chemicals (Storage)
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what studies have been conducted by his Department, or consultants to his Department, on improving the safety of storage of toxic or corrosive chemicals at large industrial sites; and what studies have been conducted on the design of bunds associated with chemical containment.

  Mr. Forth
  In addition to the high standards of legislative control which already exist for vessels storing hazardous chemicals, the Health and Safety Executive is encouraging an improvement in the mitigatory strategies adopted by occupiers to limit the consequences of vessel failure. The HSE is funding a research and development programme into the design and performance of bunds. A first study entitled "The Design of Bunds" was published in March and a further study is nearing completion.

  Youth Training
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will produce a table to show the changes in the level of YOP/YTS allowance since April 1978, giving(a) the date of the change, (b) the level of the
  384
  allowance and (c) the value of the allowance at November 1990 prices; and what the allowance would now be if it had kept pace with average earnings since April 1978.

  Mr. Jackson
  The table shows the changes in the minimum allowances paid to trainees on the youth opportunities programme/youth training scheme since 1978, expressed in cash terms and at October 1990 prices, the latest month for which information is available.

  If the minimum YT allowance had increased with average earnings since April 1978, it would have been £62·35 in September 1990, the latest month for which average earnings information is available.

  Figures quoted are minimum levels. A considerable number of YT trainees receive higher allowances or wages.

  Date of change

  Cash value

  1At constant October 1990 prices

  £

  £

  Lower level

  April 1978

  19·50

  51·50

  November 1978

  20·55

  52·16

  November 1979

  23·50

  50·82

  January 1982

  25·00

  41·37

  September 1984

  26·25

  37·96

  September 1985

  27·30

  37·27

  April 1987

  28·50

  36·48

  July 1988

  29·50

  36·02

  Higher level

  April 1986

  35·00

  46·69

  1 Estimated using the movement in the Retail Prices Index.

  European social fund
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he will be in a position to pay money to voluntary organisations for the European social fund programme starting in January.

  Mr. Forth
  Time scales and procedures for the 1991 European social fund programmes will be set in consultation with the various committees established under the new ESF arrangements. These consultations have begun. Payments will be made to organisations once their applications have been approved, and the money has been received from the European Commission.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the impact of the delays in the administration of European social funding for voluntary sector applications.

  Mr. Forth
  I appreciate that many voluntary organisations may be experiencing financial difficulties as a result of delays in implementing the reformed European social fund this year. A major cause of this delay was that the operational programmes submitted to the Commission, in line with the new regulations, were not approved by the Commission until August 1990. All organisations involved however are advised that claiming support from the European social fund is an uncertain and lengthy process. My Department is doing all it can to expedite this process, and some voluntary organisations have already received payments for their 1990 projects.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when the United Kingdom's tranche of European social fund money was given to his Department; and if he will make a statement.
  385
  Mr. Forth
  My Department received most of the first advance money for the 1990 programmes supported by the European social fund in October 1990. This money is being paid out to organisations once they have submitted correct applications to my Department. A very real effort has been made to expedite the processing of applications this year. Department of Employment officials have been working overtime in the evenings and at weekends, and extra staff have been recruited to help out.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list(a) the total numbers of applications received and (b) the number of training places for European social fund support in 1990 for each of the standard regions, England and Wales.

  Mr. Forth
  The total number of applications for ESF support received in England is 1,954 and in Wales is 223.

  The total number of training places envisaged in those applications is 264,445 for England and 18,207 for Wales.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when application forms for European social fund support in 1991 will be available for voluntary sector organisations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  Time scales and procedures for the 1991 European social fund programmes will be set in consultation with the various committees established under the new ESF arrangements. These consultations have begun.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether money from the European social fund will be paid to voluntary organisations in 1990 for projects submitted in the current year.

  Mr. Forth
  Some voluntary organisations have already received payments for their 1990 projects, and it is expected that payments to the rest which have submitted correct applications for projects running in 1990 will be made during December and January.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give the total number of(a) training places, (b) projects and (c) voluntary organisations currently under consideration in applications for assistance by grant aid from the European social fund for 1990.

  Mr. Forth
  Approximately 2,500 project applications, involving 318,755 training places, are currently under consideration for European social fund assistance for 1990. Of these 2,500 applications, some 500 were from voluntary organisations.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representation he has received from voluntary sector orgnisations about the delay in the payment of European social fund money; and what consultations have taken place with interested organisations.

  Mr. Forth
  A number of representations have been made to my Department by voluntary sector organisations about the delays in 1990, which is the first year of the new European social fund.

  Consultation with interested organisations has taken place at every stage in the process of implementing the new
  386
  regulations. Since July there have been several meetings with representatives of the voluntary sector and other organisations concerned to discuss the 1990 procedures for obtaining support under the fund.

  Employment Training
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) if he will now publish the full results of the 100 per cent. follow-up survey of employment training leavers; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) how frequently updated information from the 100 per cent. follow-up survey of employment training leavers is supplied to operational technical education colleges and Training Agency regional offices; and if he intends to make information available on a similar basis to hon. Members.

  Mr. Jackson
  The full results of the 100 per cent. follow-up survey of employment training leavers contains records for individual trainees. This information is confidential and it would therefore be inappropriate to publish it. Summary results from the survey are sent monthly to regional offices and TECs. Information is available for hon. Members on a similar basis and is placed in the Library.

  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what proportion of those who have completed courses under the employment training scheme have entered full-time employment; and what average cost of training this represents as a per capita share of the total costs of the scheme.

  Mr. Jackson
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: Of those trainees who left employment training between July 1989 and June 1990 after completing their agreed training, 26 per cent. went into full-time employment. Of all trainees who left employment training, 40 per cent. achieved a positive outcome, which includes full and part-time employment, self-employment and further training or education. The training cost per ET trainee leaving for a positive outcome is estimated to be £3,500.

  Careers Service
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when the internal review of the careers service will be completed; and if its findings will be made available to hon. Members.

  Mr. Jackson
  The internal review of careers guidance was announced last spring. The review team has now completed its consultations and will be presenting its recommendations shortly. An announcement about decisions emerging from the review will then be made.

  Disabled People
  Mr. Harris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether he is planning any additional help for disabled people; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Howard
  I have decided to give unemployeed people with disabilities priority access to our main employment and training programmes. From April next year they will become one of the key groups for entry on to employment training, the enterprise allowance scheme, job clubs and the job interview guarantee. Training and enterprise councils and the Employment Service will
  387
  ensure that people with disabilities who are unemployed will be given this priority recognition. This will help strengthen their opportunity to participate in the labour market.

  I have recently written to TEC chairmen about this new priority and special guidance has been issued about people who have special training needs, such as people with disabilities, so as to help TECs plan and implement their strategies for taking action. This is in addition to existing good practice guidance on the training of people with disabilities produced by my Department, most notably the "Building on Ability" guide. Promoting and encouraging dissemination of good practice to and between TECs and training providers will continue to be an important function of the Department. All this is particularly important as currently over 10 per cent. of people on employment training identify themselves as having a disability or long-term health problem.

  I also recently launched the new symbol that is currently being promoted by the Employment Service aimed at encouraging and helping employers on a voluntary basis to commit themselves publicly to good policies and practices. Employers have an important role in providing opportunities for people with disabilities. My Department seeks increasingly to promote good employment practices and provide effective advice on recruitment, integration, career development and retention, mainly through the Disablement Advisory Service.

  The increased priority being given to people with disabilities on our programmes and the new symbol are reflections of our commitment to ensure that people with disabilities are able to participate fully in training and employment. They already have access to the full range of non-specialist employment services, in many cases with easier eligibility or length of stay rules and special help. The extension of job clubs which I recently announced will further help people with disabilities. Research has shown that in general people who had participated in job clubs were 50 per cent. more likely to be in work than comparable people who had not, but that the difference was even greater for people with disabilities. The job interview guarantee is also being extended and that, too, can provide very significant help to people with disabilities.

  There is also a wide range of services and schemes specifically designed to help people with disabilities obtain and retain employment. This includes:
  —specialist assessment and rehabilitation services which provided 37,000 courses for over 25,000 people in 1989–90;
  —special schemes to help overcome some of the problems people with disabilities may encounter in getting or keeping employment, such as assistance with adapting premises and equipment, with fares to work or with trying out a job or starting a business. Over 7,500 successful applications for help under the special schemes were made in 1989–90;
  —funds for voluntary bodies, local authorities and Remploy to provide employment opportunities for severely disabled people who could not otherwise get work. Over 20,000 people with severe disabilities were employed through the sheltered employment programme at the end of 1989–90.

  Disablement resettlement officers help people with disabilities make use of these services and identify the right sort of help necessary to meet their employment and training needs. In 1989–90 a total of 20,500 people with disabilities were placed into employment by these officers.

  My Department has also issued in recent months two consultation documents which together look for the first
  388
  time in over 40 years at all the employment and training services we provide for people with disabilities. We make proposals and raise issues for discussion with a view to improving the effectiveness of the help we have to offer. "Employment and Training for People with Disabilities" was published in June and an evaluation of the special schemes was published in November. We will be coming to conclusions on what further action we can take to help meet the employment and training needs of people with disabilities, as well as the needs of the labour market, after we have considered all the comments we receive early next year.

  Dust Emissions
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will commission research on the health effects of fine dust particulates from industrial and extractive industries and as to any relationship between the presence of certain types of dust in the atmosphere and the incidence of asthma.

  Mr. Forth
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: The Health and Safety Executive has conducted extensive research and commissioned a number of extramural studies into the effects of dusts which may cause respiratory sensitisation in a range of industries. There are two current extramural research studies funded by HSE at the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh. One examines the relationship between exposure to dust and silica by workers in the Scottish hard rock quarry industry and a number of respiratory diseases; the other is looking at the effects of dust and airborne quartz in the British heavy clay industry.

  There have been a considerable number of studies researching the causes of respiratory diseases. In particular an HSE-sponsored study "The Surveillance of Work-Related and Occupational Respiratory Disease"—SWORD—is collating information on occupationally related respiratory problems; this study is intended to provide a greater understanding of the causes of a number of respiratory diseases including occupational asthma. In addition, the HSE has commissioned a research project on occupational asthma which is intended to assess the likelihood of sensitisation to some of the agents typically found in industrial environments.

SCOTLAND

  Waiting Lists
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the amount spent on the waiting list initiative for the years 1986–87, 1987–88, 1988–89, 1989–90 and 1990–91, respectively.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The year 1988–89 was the first year of the initiative when £3 million was spent with £7 million in 1989–90. I expect £7·1 million to be spent this year.

  Nuclear Casualties
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list all the hospitals in Scotland that have been designated to accept nuclear-contaminated casualties; and if he will show in his answer those hospitals that have expressed an interest in national health service trust status.
  389
  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The hospitals in Scotland that have been designated to accept nuclear-contaminated casualties are as follows:

  Aberdeen Royal Infirmary

  Glasgow Royal Infirmary

  Western Infirmary, Glasgow

  Raigmore Hospital, Inverness

  Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh

  Dundee Royal Infirmary

  Aberdeen royal infirmary as part of the Foresterhill unit has expressed an interest in NHS trust status.

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  1986

  1987

  1988

  No.

  WTE

  No.

  WTE

  No.

  WTE

  All qualified hospital staff

  310

  296·4

  307

  294·5

  309

  296·4

  Senior nurse 1·5 Clin Man.

  2

  2·0

  2

  2·0

  2

  2·0

  Senior nurse 6–8 Clin Man.

  15

  15·0

  14

  14·0

  10

  10·0

  Ward sister/charge nurse

  96

  95·7

  90

  89·7

  84

  83·7

  Staff nurse

  56

  49·6

  70

  64·5

  86

  81·4

  Enrolled nurse

  141

  134·1

  131

  124·3

  127

  119·3

  All staff in training

  44·5

  33·0

  39·9

  All unqualified hospital staff

  245

  223·8

  326

  307·1

  340

  322·4

  Nursing assistant

  245

  223·8

  326

  307·1

  340

  322·4

  1989

  19901

  No.

  WTE

  No.

  WTE

  All qualified hospital staff

  309

  296·8

  319

  305·9

  DNS

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Senior nurse 1·6

  3

  3·0

  3

  3·0

  Nurse scale I

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Nurse scale H

  9

  9·0

  8

  8·0

  Nurse scale G

  25

  25·0

  26

  26·0

  Nurse scale F

  49

  48·7

  45

  44·7

  Nurse scale E

  70

  65·1

  78

  72·3

  Nurse scale D

  145

  139·7

  154

  148·1

  Nursing staff in selected Glasgow hospitals; by grade; at 30 September

  Gartloch hospital

  1986

  1987

  1988

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole lime equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  All qualified hospital staff

  254

  237·8

  274

  257·4

  259

  244·8

  Senior nurse 1–5 clinical manager

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Senior nurse 6–8 clinical manager

  8

  8·0

  8

  8·0

  7

  7·0

  Ward sister/charge nurse

  60

  59·3

  65

  64·3

  59

  58·3

  Staff nurse

  90

  83·5

  109

  101·8

  111

  105·5

  Senior State Enrolled Nurse

  11

  11·0

  11

  11·0

  11

  10·6

  Enrolled nurse

  84

  75·0

  80

  71·3

  70

  62·4

  All staff in training

  75·4

  87·4

  53·4

  All unqualified hospital staff

  138

  124·5

  161

  146·8

  172

  148·7

  Nursing assistant

  138

  124·5

  161

  146·8

  172

  148·7

  1989

  19901

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  All qualified hospital staff

  223

  211·4

  226

  213·9

  DNS

  —

  —

  1

  1·0

  Senior nurse 1·6

  3

  3·0

  6

  6·0

  Nurse scale I

  2

  2·0

  1

  1·0

  Nurse scale H

  4

  4·0

  3

  3·0

  Nurse scale G

  24

  24·0

  26

  26·0

  Nurse scale F

  22

  21·7

  18

  17·7

  Nurse scale E

  88

  82·3

  84

  77·9

  Nurse scale D

  58

  54·7

  67

  62·4

  Nurse scale C

  22

  19·7

  20

  18·9

  All staff in training

  —

  52·4

  —

  51·6

  All unqualified hospital staff

  156

  134·4

  164

  140·6

  Auxilliary nurse

  156

  134·4

  164

  140·6

  1 Data as at 31 March.

  Nurses
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give for the years 1986 to 1990 inclusive(a) the number of nurses at each grade employed and (b) the number of patients treated at (i) Lennox Castle hospital, (ii) Gartloch, (iii) Leverndale, (iv) Woodilee arid (v) Gartnavel Royal.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information requested is set out in the tables.

  1989

  19901

  No.

  WTE

  No.

  WTE

  Nurse scale C

  6

  4·3

  3

  1·8

  All staff in training

  39·3

  43·9

  All unqualified hospital staff

  401

  377·2

  394

  371·7

  Auxiliary nurse scale A

  369

  345·3

  357

  334·9

  Auxiliary nurse scale B

  32

  31·9

  37

  36·8

  1Data as at 31 March

  391

  Leverndale Hospital

  1986

  1987

  1988

  Number

  Whole lime equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  All qualified hospital staff

  304

  292·1

  321

  306·3

  315

  297·9

  Senior nurse 6–8 Clinical Manager

  15

  15·0

  14

  14·0

  12

  12·0

  Ward sister/charge nurse

  76

  76·0

  80

  80·0

  72

  72·0

  Staff nurse

  107

  101·2

  130

  122·4

  145

  136·3

  Senior SEN

  11

  11·0

  10

  10·0

  8

  8·0

  Enrolled nurse

  95

  88·9

  87

  79·9

  78

  69·6

  All staff in training

  88·6

  98·8

  82·8

  All unqualified hospital staff

  262

  220·6

  258

  221·1

  244

  208·0

  Nursing assistant

  262

  220·6

  258

  221·1

  244

  208·0

  1989

  19901

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  All qualified hospital staff

  315

  296·1

  318

  297·4

  DNS

  2

  2·0

  2

  2·0

  Senior nurse 1–6

  6

  6·0

  6

  6·0

  Nurse scale I

  2

  2·0

  2

  2·0

  Nurse scale H

  10

  10·0

  6

  6·0

  Nurse scale G

  27

  27·0

  29

  29·0

  Nurse scale F

  37

  37·0

  31

  31·0

  Nurse scale E

  116

  106·6

  122

  110·8

  Nurse scale D

  100

  91·5

  113

  104·6

  Nurse scale C

  15

  14·0

  7

  6·0

  All staff in training

  78·7

  79·7

  All unqualified hospital staff

  243

  203·7

  223

  184·5

  Auxiliary nurse scale A

  232

  192·7

  211

  173·2

  Auxiliary nurse scale B

  11

  11·0

  12

  11·3

  1 Data as at 31 March.

  Woodilee Hospital

  1986

  1987

  1988

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  All qualified hospital staff

  338

  317·8

  340

  321·1

  328

  312·7

  Senior nurse 1–5 Clinical Manager

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Senior nurse 6–8 Clinical Manager

  9

  9·0

  9

  9·0

  9

  9·0

  Senior nurse 6–8 Staff Support

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Ward sister/charge nurse

  82

  81·4

  83

  82·4

  77

  76·4

  Staff nurse

  88

  80·8

  94

  86·6

  97

  91·3

  Senior SEN

  8

  8·0

  8

  8·0

  7

  7·0

  Enrolled nurse

  149

  136·6

  144

  133·1

  136

  127·0

  All staff in training

  61·3

  61·1

  49·9

  All unqualified hospital staff

  167

  150·3

  182

  166·8

  173

  160·3

  Nursing assistant

  167

  150·3

  182

  166·8

  173

  160·3

  1989

  11990

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  All qualified hospital staff

  321

  308·8

  314

  302·8

  DNS

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Senior nurse 1–6 Staff Support

  3

  3·0

  2

  2·0

  Senior nurse 1–6

  4

  4·0

  3

  3·0

  Nurse scale H

  7

  7·0

  6

  6·0

  Nurse scale G

  28

  28·0

  27

  27·0

  Nurse scale F

  43

  42·4

  40

  39·4

  Nurse scale E

  57

  55·7

  81

  78·8

  Nurse scale D

  119

  114·2

  123

  117·0

  Nurse scale C

  59

  53·5

  31

  28·6

  All staff in training

  49·4

  59·8

  All unqualified hospital staff

  174

  162·6

  192

  180·3

  392 393

  1989

  11990

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Auxiliary nurse Scale A

  172

  160·8

  186

  174·9

  Auxiliary nurse Scale B

  2

  1·8

  6

  5·4

  1 Data as at 31 March.

  Garinavel Royal Hospital

  1986

  1987

  1988

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  Number

  Whole time equivalent

  All qualified hospital staff

  220

  207·7

  223

  211

  211

  199·6

  Senior nurse 1–5 clinical manager

  2

  2·0

  2

  2·0

  2

  2·0

  Senior nurse 6–8 clinical manager

  8

  8·0

  7

  7·0

  5

  5·0

  Ward sister/charge nurse

  59

  58·8

  58

  57·8

  56

  55·8

  Staff nurse

  96

  87·9

  105

  97·6

  102

  95·2

  Senior SEN

  4

  4·0

  3

  3·0

  3

  3·0

  Enrolled nurse

  51

  47·0

  48

  43·6

  43

  38·6

  All staff in training

  86·3

  75·0

  56·7

  All unqualified hospital staff

  170

  155·7

  177

  162·5

  176

  162·0

  Nursing auxiliary

  170

  155·7

  177

  162·5

  176

  162·0

  1989

  19901

  Number

  WTE

  Number

  WTE

  All qualified hospital staff

  263

  250·5

  283

  270·6

  DNS

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Senior Nurse 1–6

  3

  3·0

  4

  4·0

  Nurse scale I

  1

  1·0

  1

  1·0

  Nurse scale H

  7

  7·0

  6

  6·0

  Nurse scale G

  27

  27·0

  23

  23·0

  Nurse scale F

  24

  24·0

  23

  22·0

  Nurse scale E

  109

  101·8

  128

  122·1

  Nurse scale D

  88

  82·8

  90

  85·0

  Table 1

  Hospital activity statistics for selected Glasgow hospitals: years ending 31 March

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Inpatient Discharges

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  157

  258

  147

  150

  152

  Gartloch Hospital

  790

  819

  808

  684

  400

  Leverndale Hospital

  1,183

  1,262

  1,215

  1,226

  1,192

  Woodilee Hospital

  1,378

  1,451

  1,276

  1,317

  1,251

  Gartnavel Royal Hospital

  1,210

  1,168

  1,238

  1,230

  1,198

  Day Cases

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Gartloch Hospital

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Leverndale Hospital

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Woodilee Hospital

  2,161

  2,490

  1,256

  2,279

  3,304

  Gartnavel Royal Hospital

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Day Patient Attendances

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Gartloch Hopital

  927

  1,032

  897

  553

  716

  Leverndale Hospital

  4,429

  4,148

  4,316

  3,845

  3,371

  Woodilee Hospital

  —

  —

  —

  286

  1,072

  Gartnavel Royal Hospital

  17,504

  30,168

  31,636

  29,520

  27,562

  Total Outpatient Attendances at Consultant Clinics

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  1,774

  1,540

  1,600

  1,842

  2,582

  Gartloch Hospital1

  1,880

  1,633

  1,742

  956

  —

  Leverndale Hospital

  4,900

  5,042

  4,810

  7,241

  8,330

  Woodilee Hospital

  5,401

  5,896

  6,272

  6,600

  7,574

  Gartnavel Royal Hospital

  7,621

  7,751

  8,361

  8,625

  7,568

  Total Inpatient Attendances at Ancillary Departments

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  18,221

  16,260

  14,984

  19,618

  29,807

  Gartloch Hospital

  5,481

  6,054

  4,733

  4,233

  9,824

  Leverndale Hospital

  13,867

  15,730

  14,183

  13,433

  10,374

  Woodilee Hospital

  23,730

  20,573

  15,147

  16,109

  16,735

  Gartnavel Royal Hospital

  18,613

  15,575

  13,328

  12,914

  22,273

  394

  1989

  19901

  Number

  WTE

  Number

  WTE

  Nurse scale C

  3

  2·9

  7

  6·5

  All staff in training

  63·6

  67·8

  All unqualified hospital staff

  179

  164·8

  183

  166·9

  Auxiliary nurse Scale A

  169

  154·9

  172

  156·0

  Auxiliary nurse Scale B

  10

  9·9

  11

  10·9

  1 Data as at 31 March.

  395

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Total Outpatient Attendances at Ancillary Departments

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  4,975

  5,678

  6,307

  5,129

  4,540

  Gartloch Hospital

  2,996

  3,108

  3,187

  2,816

  1,624

  Leverndale Hospital

  —

  —

  —

  —

  36

  Woodilee Hospital

  3,159

  3,971

  3,834

  3,433

  4,294

  Gartnavel Royal Hospital

  1,788

  1,864

  1,497

  2,498

  10,019

  1 All patients attended Gartloch External Clinics. Closed 31/10/88.

  Source: ISD(S)1.

  Table 2

  Number of Residents at selected Glasgow hospitals; as at 31 December

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Lennox Castle Hospital

  994

  935

  912

  874

  n/a

  Gartloch Hospital

  569

  554

  484

  439

  n/a

  Leverndale Hospital

  860

  897

  875

  865

  n/a

  Woodilee Hospital

  802

  749

  689

  665

  n/a

  Gartnavel Royal Hospital

  549

  560

  553

  527

  n/a

  n/a = 1990 data not yet available.

  Marriage Guidance
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what financial assistance he has made available to Scottish Marriage Guidance in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Funding under section 9 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 (for training purposes) and under section l0(1)—for headquarters expenses—was offered to Marriage Counselling Scotland, formerly the Scottish Marriage Guidance Council as follows:

  Section 9

  Section 10(1)

  Current

  Capital

  Total

  1986–87

  12,200

  44,112

  1,986

  58,298

  1987–88

  13,500

  45,437

  2,000

  60,937

  1988–89

  14,600

  49,408

  2,810

  66,818

  1989–90

  17,700

  75,000

  2,500

  95,200

  1990–91

  13,400

  77,387

  —

  90,787

  Coal Exports
  Mr. Hood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the current level of coal exports from Scotland to Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lang
  This Department does not collect such information. However, I understand that sales from Scotland to Northern Ireland by British Coal totalled some 1,019,000 tonnes in the year ended 31 March 1990, of which 921,000 tonnes went to the electricity supply industry. British Coal exports for the current year are estimated at around 800,000 tonnes.

  Mr. Hood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the current levels of coal exports from Scotland to other European countries.

  Mr. Lang
  Latest figures from the Department of Transport show that in the first nine months of 1990 shipments of coal from Scottish ports to European countries were as follows:

  Country

  Tonnes

  France

  65,308

  Irish Republic

  25,195

  Denmark

  107,427

  396

  Country

  Tonnes

  Spain

  2,925

  Sweden

  16,706

  Finland

  57,746

  275,307

  Mr. Hood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met with British Coal representatives to discuss the export of coal to Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lang
  Responsibility for the coal industry in Great Britain rests with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, who meets the chairman of British Coal on a regular basis to discuss all aspects of the coal industry.

  Mr. Hood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what information he has on the number of Ayrshire jobs dependent on coal exports to Ireland.

  Mr. Lang
  There is no information on the number of jobs in Ayrshire dependent on coal exports to Ireland. However British Coal advises that there are at present 817 jobs associated with opencast coal mining in Ayrshire, of which 545 employees are directly employed on site by British Coal or its contractors. The majority of output from Ayrshire mines is at present bought for use in power generation and industrial consumption in Northern Ireland, with a further small amount exported to Eire.

  Community Services
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many unfilled posts there are in the Greater Glasgow health board in the community services in physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy, respectively.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  At 22 November, Greater Glasgow health board had identified three vacancies in physiotherapy, one in occupational therapy and two in speech therapy.

  Wild Foxes
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what expenditure is incurred by his Department in controlling the numbers of the wild fox population in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. Meale) on 1 November at column 723.

  Kidney Stones
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many patients with renal calculi have, since 1987,(a) been transferred to England for lithotripsy and (b) required multiple treatments with the lithotripter at the national centre in Edinburgh.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  This information is not centrally available.

  Nuclear Waste
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what quantity of(a) low and (b) intermediate-level waste is in Scotland awaiting disposal or transfer to Sellafield at present;

  (2) what quantity of (a) low and (b) intermediate-level nuclear waste has been (i) exported from and (ii) imported into Scotland on an annual basis since 1985.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  With the exception of a small quantity of waste at BNF plc's Chapelcross works, I am not aware of any nuclear waste in Scotland awaiting transfer to Sellafield. All Scottish nuclear establishments other than Dounreay are authorised under the Radioactive Substances Act 1960 to dispose of low-level radioactive waste to BNF plc for burial and the company's facilities at Drigg, Cumbria. Details of these authorisations and the quantities of waste disposal of under their terms may be found in : "Radioactive waste disposal from nuclear sites in Scotland, 1984–1988"—SDD statistical bulletin No. 1(E) 1990—copies of which are in the Library.

  From time to time, waste is transferred between United Kingdom nuclear establishments. Such transfers are made under the terms of authorisation granted by the appropriate territorial Department but records are not kept centrally. There have been no overseas imports or exports of nuclear waste.

  Sheriff Ewen Stewart
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will instruct a review to be carried out, under section 12 of the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971, of the performance by Sheriff Ewen Stewart of his shrieval duties.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  My right hon. and learned Friend has requested no such review.

  Sheriffs (Dismissal Procedures)
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will set out the procedures under which a sheriff may be dismissed; and if he has any proposals for their reform.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Procedures for the removal from office of a sheriff, in which are involved the 398
  Lord President of the Court of Session, the Lord Justice Clerk, the Secretary of State and the Houses of Parliament are contained in section 12 of the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971. My right hon. and learned Friend has, at present, no proposals for the reform of these provisions.

  Health Service Conference, Peebles
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the attendance of senior officials of the national health service and Scottish health boards at a conference organised by the Institute of Health Services Management and funded by private health care contractors at Peebles in November.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: This conference, which is held biennially, was organised by the Scottish division of the Institute of Health Services Management. These conferences are an important forum for discussing health-related matters and the IHSM invites many interested people, including health service and health board officials. Funding for the conference is a matter for the organisers.

  Government Researchers
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list research projects and researchers awarded funding by the Scottish Education Department during 1990.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: Details of current educational research projects, including those awarded in 1990, are contained in the Scottish Education Department's publication "Educational Research 1989–90", copies of which are in the Library. In addition to projects listed therein, the Scottish Education Department has awarded funding in 1990 for the following research:

  Project

  Researcher

  Education of Pupils with Moderate Learning Difficulties and Contribution of Modern Foreign Languages

  Private individual

  Evaluation of the Policy of Pupils with Special Educational Needs in Dumfries and Galloway

  The Scottish Council for Research in Education

  Assessment processes, planning and resource allocation in placing people with learning difficulties in supported accommodation

  University of Dundee

  Correlation between child sexual abuse and domestic violence

  Women's Support Project, Glasgow

  Needs of families of children with epilepsy

  University of Glasgow

  Monitoring and evaluation of aspects of the post adoption scheme offered by family care

  University of Edinburgh and University of Glasgow

  Assessment of older people considered for institutional care

  University of Edinburgh

  Speech Therapy
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what funding will be made available to Scottish education authorities to enable them to meet the requirements of his inspectors in respect of provision of speech therapy services; and if he will make a statement.
  400
  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 26 November 1990]: Expenditure by education authorities to provide for special educational needs, including, where appropriate, speech therapy services, is supported by the aggregate external finance settlement.

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Peterborough.
Lord MacAndrew—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

Message from the Queen
The Earl of Airlie: My Lords, I have the honour to present to your Lordships a message from Her Majesty the Queen, signed by her own hand. The message is as follows:
"I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament".

Channel Tunnel: Anti-Rabies Measures
2.39 p.m.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:
What action they are taking to prevent animals infected with rabies entering the United Kingdom through the Channel Tunnel.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Baroness Trumpington): My Lords, the State Veterinary Service and our wildlife scientists have been fully involved in devising the measures to be used once the tunnel is operational. Those have yet to be finalised but will include the use of sealed trains, physical barriers and grids, and the continuous use of baited traps in the tunnel and terminal areas, together with vigorous cleaning and inspection procedures.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is she aware that physical access through the tunnel is now possible? In view of that, is it not a little disturbing that she has said that precautions will be taken when the tunnel is operational? Will she assure the House that precautions are being taken now?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the only reason that I did not include that information was that it would have made my Answer so long. Eurotunnel has implemented measures agreed with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to prevent the possible entry of rabies-susceptible animals while the tunnel is being built. Those include fencing, staged security zones, visual observation at openings in fencing and a system to ensure that any animals which are seen in the tunnel are reported. Ministry staff visit the construction site regularly to ensure that standards are maintained.
Lord Renton: My Lords, will my noble friend assure us that the steps that she has mentioned will be
894
effective in preventing animals coming in not on their own feet, so to speak, but when carried on railway trains?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, in other words, smuggled animals?
Lord Renton: My Lords, if I may be allowed, surely the important point is, for example, that there should not be rats or other wild animals on goods trains or vehicles bringing rabies into the country?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, forgive me for not understanding my noble friend's original question. It is important to remember that disease knows no boundaries. Outbreaks could have serious consequences anywhere. Checks must therefore be possible to safeguard human, animal and plant health. Our aim is to devise arrangements which limit the risk of disease outbreak without serious disruption of freight traffic through the tunnel or elsewhere.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, which animals are carriers of rabies? For instance, are bats carriers of rabies?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the answer is a wide variety of animals. I have some interesting facts about bats. There is no evidence of natural transmission to terrestrial mammals of the rabies-related virus found in some species of insectivorous bats on the Continent. The general provisions for preventing animals from entering the tunnel will also stop colonisation by bats. This is so interesting, my Lords, that I shall continue. While it is possible that an infected bat could cross the Channel on strong winds, the threat is extremely small. Imported bats are subject to six months' quarantine or, in the case of vampire bats, life.
Lord Gallacher: My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether special arrangements for public health have been, or will be, made for the Folkestone and Dover areas, together with their hinterlands, so that if an outbreak occurs facilities will be in place to deal with it?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord of that.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that during the time of the last Labour Government very far-reaching precautions were set up to combat any possible outbreak of rabies? Will she confirm that these are still in place and that they have not been cut down or reduced for economy reasons?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I hesitate to suggest that there is any connection between the last Labour Government and rabies. The precautions are indeed there.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, has the noble Baroness any evidence that these animals wish to enter the United Kingdom?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, everyone wishes to enter the United Kingdom.

Metropolitan Police: Recruitment
2.44 p.m.
Lord Molloy Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:
What steps they are taking to increase recruitment into the Metropolitan Police.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, recruitment to the Metropolitan Police is on target for the year. The strength on 31st October 1990 was only 185 posts short of the establishment of 28,565; 111 new recruits started their initial training at Hendon on 29th October 1990. The strength of the Metropolitan Police is 6,100 higher than it was in 1979.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply. Is he aware that as we now have the highest rise in crime since the war, chief constables and commissioners feel that the permitted limit should be increased? Is he further aware that there is an additional problem for police forces in outer London where parking problems are immense and where burglaries and break-ins are increasing? Police officers have to be used to control parking. Can consideration be given to permitting traffic wardens to assist the outer boroughs and thus help their police colleagues?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, certainly crime has increased and that is regrettable. However, I remind the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, that the strength of the Metropolitan Police increased from 22,528 to 28,380 between 1979 and 1990. Whereas £300 million was spent on the Metropolitan Police in 1978–79, the figure has now risen to £1,265 million. Seven hundred additional officers have been allocated to the police service as a whole in 1990–91. A decision as to the allocation between forces will be made before the end of the year.
The Metropolitan Police employ traffic wardens; there is a shortage and they are difficult to recruit. The Metropolitan Police are examining how to improve matters; there was a special pay rise this year in order to encourage recruitment.
Lord Elton: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that no police force in the world can, on its own, prevent the commission of crime? What is necessary for the production of a law abiding society is a society which believes in abiding by the law. Does he therefore believe that the programmes for involving the community developed by the Metropolitan Police are the most fruitful way forward? Does he also consider that generally there is a great deal more work to be done to persuade people of the rule of fair play in observing the law?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend; I agree entirely with what he says. For the police to operate properly they must receive the constructive help of the locality. Much has been done, for example, with neighbourhood watch schemes in order to encourage people to take part in the protection of their locality and to help the police.
My noble friend is quite right. If we wish for a law-abiding society it is up to individuals. Some of the
896
treatment which is meted out to police on certain occasions by the members of the public is quite shocking.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, can the noble Earl say how many of the new recruits to the Metropolitan Police have been women and how many members of the ethnic minorities?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, 462 members of the ethnic minorities were members of the Metropolitan Police on 31st October this year. During the year 42 officers were recruited from the ethnic minority communities. I cannot tell the noble Baroness how many were women, either of those or of the non-ethnic minority recruits.
The Earl of Kimberley: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether one of the reasons for the wastage in the Metropolitan Police is that until recently overtime was greatly limited? Is that still the case today?
Earl Ferrets: My Lords, there is a constraint on overtime. However, one of the main problems is that once Metropolitan Police officers have been recruited and have undergone training they often find it more convenient and cheaper to move out to a police authority in the country. That is a constant cause of the loss of manpower, and there is little one can do about it.
Lord Mulley: My Lords, it seems now to be a ritual practice to compare present expenditure with that of 1979. When the noble Earl gives figures, will he indicate whether they are at constant prices or whether we should make a big discount in present figures for purposes of comparison due to the enormous inflation from which we suffer?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, that was an astonishingly barbed question in a number of ways. I gave the figures for 1979 because I thought that would be helpful and that was the period for which the present Government were responsible. I did not draw attention particularly to the rate which then operated. The figures I gave were in money terms, but there has been a 55 per cent. increase in real terms in the money spent on the police.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware of the anxieties that have been expressed by people who understand the statistics? They believe that the Metropolitan Police are top heavy. There are far too many chiefs and not enough indians. There are far too many people in offices and not enough on the ground. Many people do not think that we are obtaining value for money from the way in which the existing finances are used and the existing personnel is deployed. Will the Minister consider conducting a review of that situation?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it is perfectly true that nowadays policing tends to involve a lot of office work. Consequently the Metropolitan Police have been authorised to employ 13,900 staff in order to release on to the streets those officers who are necessarily employed on work inside buildings. They are authorised to employ 13,900 staff but the civilian strength is 13,400. However, the general point that the

897
noble Lord makes about the structure of policing is always a matter for concern. It is constantly under review.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, how many neighbourhood watch schemes now exist within the Metropolitan Police area?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I cannot give that information without notice.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, in view of the figures that the noble Earl has given as regards the increased funds available and the increase in the number of officers recruited, and the avowed intention of the Government to combat crime—they have stated this in all their manifestos—is it not clear that the present system has completely failed and that perhaps the time has come for a Royal Commission to investigate the whole question of the police and crime?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I believe that the experience of most people as regards Royal Commissions is that they sit for a long time and they digest for a long time. That may not be the best way to produce a solution to a matter that is of relative immediate importance. The structure of policing is of course an important matter and it is being considered at present. However, I do not believe that a Royal Commission is the right way to tackle that matter.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I hope I may revert to one of the points that the noble Earl made. It is perfectly true, as the noble Earl will know, that last year 42 people from ethnic minorities were recruited. However, is the noble Earl also aware that of those 42 people 26 have now left the force? Does the noble Earl recognise that the number of applications from ethnic minorities decreased from 624 in 1988 to 577 in 1989? Is the noble Earl further aware that the Metropolitan Police force itself has admitted that this wastage is partly caused by the attitude of white officers towards their black colleagues? Does the Minister recognise that this is an extraordinarily serious matter? Will he tell us what the Government intend to do about it?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, if there is any racial prejudice within the Metropolitan Police—obviously from time to time there will be cases of racism—it is a specific offence under the police discipline code and it is punishable with punishments ranging from caution to dismissal from the force. Certainly a number of officers from ethnic minorities were recruited. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, is right to say that some 27 of them left. The commissioner is committed to establishing a workforce which is more representative of the population of London. In order to facilitate this process, various steps have been taken such as the abolition of the minimum height requirement. I am sure that will please the noble Lord, Lord Molloy. There is a pre-employment course for those promising candidates who nevertheless fail the police initial recruitment test. A special research study is being conducted into why members of ethnic minorities do
898
not join the police force. The result of that study has been used to enhance the present media advertising campaign which is aimed at ethnic minority groups.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that additional information. The Minister said that certain sanctions are available to the Metropolitan Police against officers who are convicted of racial prejudice. However, can the Minister tell us how many officers have been convicted of that offence and what the penalties have been?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord how many officers have been affected by the sanctions as there are various disciplinary charges which cover racially discriminatory behaviour, such as discreditable conduct. However, those offences do not require proof of racial motivation and therefore it is difficult to give an answer in terms of the number of people who have been convicted of offences which are racially motivated as such offences come under another heading.
Lord Mellish: My Lords, I wish to get the position absolutely clear. Is it right to say that the vast majority of jobs carried out, for example, in the secretarial sector of the Metropolitan Police are carried out by civilians and not by the police at all?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, that is perfectly true and that is why I said that the civilian quota allowed for over 13,000 people. It is important that those jobs which can be done by people other than highly trained policemen should be done by civilians.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, the remarks made by the noble Earl about my stature remind me of the incident when a Tory mayor said that Lloyd George was a very small man. Lloyd George, being a Welshman, told the mayor not to worry as in Wales people measure a man from the chin up! Is the Minister aware of the report of the Association of Chief Police Officers who are somewhat concerned that not enough recruits are coming forward who are of the calibre to become, ultimately, medium grade officers? Will the Minister look at that matter as it is causing some concern?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I referred to the lowering of the height requirement because I believed it was of interest as some members of the ethnic minorities are smaller than some English men. However, if the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, had wished to enter the Metropolitan Police force I can assure him that he would have had to surmount other hurdles too. I say with the greatest respect to the noble Lord that those other hurdles might not have been quite so easy to overcome. As regards those who are capable of achieving the middle and higher ranks of the police force, I should say that there is a higher proportion of graduates in the police force now than ever before. I believe I am correct in saying that there are more graduates in the police force than in the army, the navy, and the air force combined.

The Gulf
2.57 p.m.
Lord Dean of Beswick Lord Dean of Beswick asked Her Majesty's Government:
What is the present daily cost of the United Kingdom's military activity in the Middle East due to the illegal occupation of Kuwait.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Arran): My Lords, the current estimate of the full daily operating cost of our forces in the Gulf, including the latest enhancements, is £3.5 million per day.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. However, is he aware that in annual terms that sum of money would amount roughly to £1.2 billion? Bearing in mind that our country is now in a rather serious recession by any standards, where do the Government envisage finding the money to continue to fund such an exercise? Would they find it at the cost of other social services, or would they find it from fresh sources?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, any future funding that may be required is a matter between the Treasury and the Ministry of Defence. To counter blatant and naked aggression by Iraq against Kuwait through the deployment of over 30,000 of our service men and women in that area is an extremely expensive and costly operation. However, at the same time I am sure noble Lords will agree that that money is well and responsibly spent.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the obliteration without excuse of one member of the United Nations by another contrary to the United Nations charter is something which must be prevented at all costs irrespective of purely financial considerations?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, of course I agree with my noble and learned friend.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there was a general impression that Saudi Arabia and the Kuwait Government in exile would make contributions to the cost of the deployment of British and American troops? Can the Minister say whether negotiations have taken place and how near to completion they are?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, as regards contributions to the cost of the operation in the Gulf, host nations are already making available a range of valuable assistance such as food, fuel and water. The West German Government have provided and are continuing to provide assistance with training. We in the United Kingdom are doing all that we can to persuade other countries to make a contribution towards the overall cost.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that thanks to the Gulf crisis and the rise in the price of oil increased revenue is available to the Treasury?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, that may be so. However, we must consider the direct costs involved in the operation.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, can the noble Earl indicate whether the figures that he has quoted represent additional costs, bearing in mind that British troops incur costs all the time wherever they are in the world? Is the cost to which he referred over and above what would be required if the troops were in Germany?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, it is an additional cost of £3½ million a day.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, will the noble Earl be more forthcoming in response to the question of my noble friend Lord Stoddart of Swindon? Have we not read in the press that the United States Government have made certain agreements with the Saudis and the Kuwaitis in exile and that the Japanese have contributed substantial sums in cash as well as in kind? How much of that money is coming to the British Government to pay for our costs in the Gulf operation?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, contributions to our costs in the operation in the Gulf are under discussion. The details have not yet been finalised.

The Community Charge
3.1 p.m.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon Lord Stoddart of Swindon asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they intend to review the structure and operation of the community charge.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government carried out a review of the community charge earlier this year and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced a number of improvements, some of which are still not in place. We remain receptive to further improvements. In fact, refinements in arrangements are normal for any new major policy.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, the review does not seem to have been very well received by all members of the Conservative Party or of the Government. Bearing in mind the revelation by Mr. Lawson that he had reported his view that the poll tax was both unworkable and electorally disastrous, will the noble Baroness say what alterations are likely to be made by the candidates for Prime Minister? Will she also say whether we are now to be faced with the ultimate paradox that having got rid of the thatcher the Government might now introduce a roof tax?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the changes which I believe will be well received are help for people who run a shop and live over the shop and for people living in tied accommodation for whom the multiplier is to be reduced to half; steps to remove anomalies in cases where people have difficulty selling their homes; and improved transitional relief for a number of people

901
and the reduction of the period from five to three years. I do not intend to indulge in speculation about further improvements.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, the Minister referred to a major new policy. Does that have any political connotations regarding what is happening today?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, it may well have been prophetic.
Lord Monson: My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that to limit tax relief on mortgage interest to the standard rate—something which should have happened a long time ago—would make available almost £1 billion for additional poll tax rebates to those whose earnings are below the national average?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the Question that I am addressing concerns whether there is any intention to review the structure of the community charge. The noble Lord's question is therefore wide of the Question on the Order Paper.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell me what happened to the promise made in an election address by the then candidate for St. Pancras North—now the right honourable Member for Huntingdon—that the Government would replace the rates with a just tax which would be levied on the basis of ability to pay?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the Government fulfilled that promise in the manifesto.
Lord Renton: My Lords, the present right honourable Member for Huntingdon is my successor. May I assure your Lordships that any undertaking that he has given can be relied upon?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be wise to listen to what people have to say, to consider it and to contemplate what might be done? Does she agree that we have to continue to do our utmost to make the community charge fairer and more acceptable in the eyes of those who have to pay it? Does she agree with the statement, "I have made it quite clear that there will be a fundamental review"? Finally, would she care to go for the jackpot and tell the House which of those statements was made by which of the men in grey suits?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, in the review undertaken this year the Government took into account some of the difficulties of implementing the community charge. I have listed some of them. Perhaps I may add that one community charge payer in four receives help from the Government. A sum of £2 billion is made available for relief of the community charge bills of 9 million people. That addresses the principle of ability to pay.
Lord Ross of Newport: My Lords,—
Noble Lords: Order!
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, does my noble friend accept that her refusal to indulge in speculation at this stage is to be heartily applauded not only on this side of the House?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his remarks. It is not my duly to indulge in speculation; I have no intention of doing so.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, without speculating, can the noble Baroness help the House by saying which of the three policies now being discussed by Mr. Heseltine, Mr. Hurd and Mr. Major is favoured by the right honourable lady, the Prime Minister?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I hope that the House will understand if I refuse to answer that question.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, will the noble Baroness take into consideration the difficulties faced by some severely disabled people who received rate relief before the introduction of the community charge? Will she take note of the information that is available from RADAR—the Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the number of adjustments made to the community charge this year prove that the Government have been receptive to information fed into the department about difficulties faced by some people in paying their charge. Therefore, if RADAR wishes to continue to supply information to the department I am sure that the department will be receptive to it.

New Roads and Street Works Bill [H.L.]
.7 p.m.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper. Your Lordships will notice that this is an unusually long and detailed instruction. The reason is that it will allow your Lordships to consider the clauses relating to Scotland in parallel with the clauses relating to England and Wales where these cover exactly the same point of policy. This has been agreed through the usual channels in order to make the consideration of the Bill in this House as convenient for your Lordships as possible.
Moved, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House to whom the New Roads and Street Works Bill [H.L.] has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 5,

Schedule 1,

Clause 6,

Schedule 2,

Clauses 24 and 25,

Clause 7,

Clause 26,

Clauses 8 and 9,

Clauses 27 and 28,

Clause 10,

Clause 29,

Clause 11,

Clauses 30 and 31,

Clause 12,

Clause 32,

Clause 13,

903

Clause 33,

Clause 14,

Clause 34,

Clause 15,

Clause 35,

Clause 16,

Clauses 36 and 37,

Clause 17,

Clause 39,

Clause 18,

Clause 40,

Clause 19,

Clauses 20 and 21,

Clause 38,

Clauses 22 and 23,

Clauses 41 and 42,

Clause 97,

Clause 43,

Clause 98,

Clause 44,

Schedule 3,

Clause 45,

Clause 99,

Clause 46,

Clause 100,

Clause 47,

Clause 101,

Clause 48,

Clause 102,

Clause 49,

Clause 103,

Clause 50,

Clause 104,

Clause 51,

Clause 105,

Clause 52,

Clause 106,

Clause 53,

Clause 107,

Clause 54,

Clause 108,

Clause 55,

Clause 109,

Clause 56,

Schedule 4,

Clause 110,

Schedule 6,

Clause 57,

Clause 111,

Clause 58,

Clause 112,

Clause 59,

Clause 113,

Clause 60,

Clause 114,

Clause 61,

Clause 115,

Clause 62,

Clause 116,

Clause 63,

Clause 117,

Clause 64,

Clause 118,

904

Clause 65,

Clause 119,

Clause 66,

Clause 120,

Clause 67,

Clause 121,

Clause 68,

Clause 122,

Clause 69,

Clause 123,

Clause 70,

Clause 124,

Clause 71,

Clause 125,

Clause 72,

Clause 126,

Clause 73,

Clause 127,

Clause 74,

Clause 128,

Clause 75,

Clause 129,

Clause 76,

Clause 130,

Clause 77,

Clause 131,

Clause 78,

Clause 132,

Clause 79

Clause 133,

Clause 80,

Clause 134,

Clause 81,

Clause 135,

Clause 82,

Clause 136,

Clause 83,

Clause 137,

Clause 84,

Clause 138,

Clause 85,

Clause 139,

Clause 86,

Clause 140,

Clause 87,

Clause 141,

Clause 88,

Clause 142,

Clause 89,

Clause 143,

Clause 90,

Clause 144,

Clause 91,

Clause 145,

Clause 92,

Schedule 5,

Clause 146,

Schedule 7,

Clause 93,

Clause 147,

Clause 94,

Clause 148,

Clause 95,

Clause 149,

905

Clause 96,

Clauses 150 to 153,

Schedules 8 and 9,

Clauses 154 to 156. (Viscount Davidson.)

Baroness White: My Lords, would it not have been advisable to have withdrawn the Bill and reprinted it in a logical order rather than have this arrangement, which I do not believe that I have ever seen before on an Order Paper?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, it might have been, but the usual channels did not agree.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, it is an unusual Bill. There are parallel clauses running through separate parts of the Bill. This seems to be a logical way of dealing with what could otherwise have been an awkward situation. I support the Motion.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I am grateful to a usual channel for his support.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Deputy Chairmen of Committees
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be appointed the panel of Lords to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session:

Airedale, L.

Alpert, L.

Ampthill, L.

Aylestone, L.

Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.

Cox, B.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Davidson, V.

Denham, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Grantchester, L.

Hayter, L.

Listowel, E.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Lockwood, B.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Oxfuird, V.

Strabolgi, L. (The Chairman of Committees.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Leave of Absence and Lords' Expenses: Select Committee
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed for the general supervision of arrangements relating to leave of absence and the reimbursement of Lords' expenses; and that, as proposed by the Committee of
906
Selection, the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

Attlee, E.

Denham, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Tordoff, L. (The Chairman of Committees.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Planning and Compensation Bill [H.L.]
3.9 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
The main purpose of the Bill can be simply stated. It is to make the planning system both fairer and more efficient. Essentially our present planning system has existed for over 40 years. Some elements of it go back much further. The system has for the most part served us well. In our densely-populated small island it is essential that we have an effective means of resolving how to use the land that we have available. We need houses, factories, offices, shops, roads, railways, football stadia and tennis courts; we need to regenerate rundown urban areas; to maintain our green belts, and to preserve our many beautiful and scientifically important areas of countryside and coastline and our unique historic towns and buildings. Development decisions must be made with care, taking account of these various conflicting needs and of the needs of people who will be directly affected by development.
By and large the planning system, and the related provisions for compulsory purchase and compensation, ensure an acceptable balance. It is neither a developer's charter nor a preservationist's dream. Each individual decision contributes to the balance between conservation and development. The system must work efficiently and must be seen to operate fairly by the people whom it affects. This Bill addresses the problems which over recent years have become evident in this respect.
Parts I and II of the Bill begin with important measures for strengthening and improving the enforcement provisions in our planning Acts in England and Wales and in Scotland. Clauses 1 to 11 for England and Wales and Clauses 27 to 36 for Scotland are based on the recommendations made by Mr. Robert Carnwath QC, in his report entitled Enforcing Planning Control, which my department published in April 1989.
I should like to pay tribute to Mr. Carnwath's report. It gives a clear and succinct analysis of current enforcement problems. His recommendations provide a sound basis for amending legislation, as befits a distinguished planning barrister. I am also glad to say that the recommendations have been generally welcomed, as a package, in the extensive consultation exercise which followed publication of the report last year. It is as a balanced package of improvements that I commend this part of the Bill to your Lordships.

907
What the Carnwath report showed, and what many of us know from personal experience, is that there is a small minority of people who are determined contravenors of planning regulations. It is those people who bring the system into disrepute; and it is their damaging and unwelcome activities—often making their neighbours' lives intolerable—which the enforcement amendments are intended to deter or, failing that, to remedy through increased penalties; new methods for enforcing planning conditions; and improved powers for local authority officers to enter private land for enforcement purposes. But I should like to emphasise very strongly that these amendments are not directed at the ordinary, law-abiding citizen who makes a planning application to the council, has it approved and carries out the development permitted in accordance with the approved plans. People who follow the proper procedures have absolutely nothing to fear from stronger enforcement powers.
The strengthened enforcement powers are balanced in the Bill—as the Carnwath report recommended—by other provisions which are intended to foster co-operation between people who want to develop their land and local planning authorities. For example, the new planning contravention notice, for which Clauses 1 and 27 provide, is meant to encourage developers and authorities to talk to each other in the early stages of the process; so that instead of formal enforcement action having to be taken when communications fail, there is a real prospect of initiating discussion which results in agreement on how land is to be developed.
The proposals in Clauses 10 and 35 are also based on the Carnwath report's recommendations. Their main purpose is to do away with the present out-dated immunity and replace it with a modern and workable concept. I pay tribute to the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and the Law Society for their part in initiating these revised procedures, which we believe will be generally beneficial to owners of land and to practitioners who have to advise their clients on the difficult question whether actual or proposed development is lawful. Later clauses (Clauses 19, 21, 39 and 41) make some parallel enforcement provisions in respect of tree preservation orders, listed buildings, conservation areas and hazardous substances. My final word on this part of the Bill is that it gives all planning authorities the opportunity to make the planning enforcement process work better than it does at present.
I turn now to the changes relating to development control which are also covered by Parts I and II of the Bill. The provisions in Clause 12 were the subject of a consultation paper about planning agreements issued by the department last year. First, they would enable a developer to enter into a plannng obligation by undertaking unilaterally to carry out works or contribute to infrastructure, as an alternative to a planning agreement with the planning authority. This would enable developers to break the stalemate when local planning authorities play for time or hold out for excessive planning gain. Such undertakings would be
908
enforceable by the local authority concerned but would not require its agreement. They should be particularly useful in clarifying the position at appeal.
Secondly, to ensure that planning obligations need not continue indefinitely where they no longer serve a useful purpose, the clause would enable a person who is bound by a planning obligation to apply for it to be modified or discharged. There would be a right of appeal to the Secretary of State.
Thirdly, the Government intend to legislate to enable the Crown to enter into planning obligations. I regret that drafting of this technically rather difficult provision is not yet complete but I intend to introduce a suitable amendment in Committee.
Clause 13 and several of the other development control proposals stem from the department's Efficient Planning consultation paper of July 1989. They are designed to streamline the planning system and make it work more effectively—aims which I know have widespread support. They will enable us to simplify the arrangements for publicising and handling applications for bad neighbour development and for notifying owners and other interests about development proposals.
In order to save the system from becoming clogged up by repetitive applications designed to wear down the resistance of local planning authorities and communities, Clauses 14 and 37 would give local planning authorities the power to decline to determine an application on the grounds that a similar one has been refused by the Secretary of State within the preceding two years where there has been no material change in circumstances.
Clauses 15 and 38 would enable the Secretary of State to dismiss an appeal where the appellant delays unreasonably. Under Clause 24 the Secretary of State would be able to require someone who unreasonably insists that his appeal should be heard at a local inquiry or hearing to pay the costs of the other party to the hearing. We will be publishing for consultation the criteria to be used in deciding whether someone's insistence on an inquiry or hearing is unreasonable.
Clause 16 rescinds the present requirement that all applications for county matter planning permissions—that is, minerals and waste development—should first go to the district planning authority. Applications will be submitted direct to the county council, and this should reduce handling times.
Clause 17 provides the statutory framework for reforming the arrangements under which local planning authorities deem themselves planning permission. This was the subject of a consultation paper this year. The clause would enable the Secretary of State to make regulations governing development by local planning authorities or development of land owned by authorities, including arrangements for the discharge of authorities' functions. We intend in these regulations and other secondary legislation to require that all development proposals by local authorities, or on their land, must be fully advertised and decided in public by a committee not responsible for the management of the land concerned. If a proposal

909
conflicts with the development plan, it must be reported to the Secretary of State so that he can consider calling in the proposals for his own decision.
I believe that these are useful reforms. They will increase local authorities' accountability when deeming themselves planning permission, helping to correct for any possible bias which might arise from their direct financial interest; but they should not restrict authorities unnecessarily in carrying out their statutory functions.
Clause 18 and Schedule 1 amend the provisions concerning mines and waste. They will enable aftercare conditions to be imposed on planning permissions and on revocation, discontinuance, prohibition and suspension orders so that better control can be exercised over mineral waste sites which are often unsightly. This will help to bring the tipping of minerals waste up to modern standards. The schedule would also provide for regulations to abate the compensation payable following revocation, discontinuance, prohibition or suspension orders made in respect of mineral waste sites. We believe that minerals planning authorities will then be more likely to take action to improve the operation of these sites.
Schedule 1 would also extend to all waste disposal sites the power for local authorities to impose aftercare conditions in planning permissions and revocation and discontinuance orders—a power already available for mineral working sites, and an important environmental improvement.
Clauses 20 and 40 would remove doubt about whether certain forms of advertisement such as blinds and canopies on shop premises are within the scope of planning authorities' control of advertising.
Clause 41 would enable Scottish local planning authorities to remove or obliterate illegal placards and posters. A similar power in England and Wales already enables authorities to deal with fly-posting.
I turn now to the provisions in Schedules 3 and 4 to the Bill. The development plan provisions in Schedule 3 will end a long period of debate and uncertainty about the future of the planning system in England and Wales. It is almost exactly four years since the Government published their Green Paper on the Future of Development Plans. That was followed up by a White Paper in January 1989. Those proposals were further modified by my right honourable friend's announcement in September of our decision to retain county structure plans.
At the end of this process we have a package on which I believe there is a wide measure of agreement. Given the many pressures on scarce land resources, we need a rational framework for land use planning which can look at the community's requirements in the round and balance development needs against the importance of conserving what is best in our heritage. The problem with the present system is that it is far too slow and cumbersome. For instance, it currently takes my department almost two and a half years on average to approve a county structure plan. Plans may be overtaken by events even before they come into force.
910
The provisions in Schedule 3 address those issues, with the aim of simplifying and streamlining the system. We intend to retain county structure plans as an essential strategic element in the development plan framework. But the Bill will allow counties to adopt their own plans in future, after due public consultation, rather than have to submit them to the Secretary of State. Of course counties will have to have regard to national policies and regional guidance in drawing up their plans. My right honourable friend will retain the power to intervene if they fail to do so; for example, if the county concerned fails to take a realistic view of development needs. But self-adoption will give responsible counties the chance to revise and update their plans much more quickly than they can at present. We shall be requiring all counties to prepare one plan for the whole of their areas and to confine their plans to a prescribed range of key strategic issues.
At the district level, the Bill will require all district councils to prepare local plans for the whole of their areas. At present the preparation of local plans is discretionary and only about 30 per cent. of the country is covered. This is an unsatisfactory situation. It means that in many areas there is no clear framework against which planning applications can be considered. It has also meant that many structure plans have included development control policies on matters which should properly be for local decision. Extending local plan coverage will help to ensure that county structure plans can focus on the key strategic planning issues. Again, there is provision to ensure consistency between national policy, structure plan and local plan, including reserve powers for the Secretary of State to direct modifications should it become necessary.
Our intention is that counties should be asked to revise and update their structure plans in line with the new provisions within two years of their commencement. Districts will be required to prepare local plans for the whole of their areas within five years of commencement. Of course those who already have up-to-date local plans or who are working on them at the moment will be able to make full use of that existing material in producing the new district-wide plans. We shall be tabling appropriate transitional provisions at Committee stage.
Schedule 3 also makes provisions for development plans in national parks. Structure planning arrangments there will be unchanged. But all national park boards and committees will have a new responsibility to prepare a local plan for the whole of the national park. Again present coverage of local plans in the national parks is very patchy. These new provisions will clarify plan-making responsibilities in the parks and put the basis for development control on a firmer footing.
The Bill will require all counties and national park authorities to prepare minerals development plans for their areas. We are consulting at the moment on the possibility of introducing for Committee stage a similar requirement for waste disposal development plans.

911
Finally, Schedules 3 and 4 also include provisions which will simplify procedures for public consultation on both draft development plans and draft schemes for simplified planning zones. That is a brief sketch of the key provisions in these schedules. I believe that they are provisions which will be widely welcomed.
We are proposing a firm timetable for the completion of development plans. Once the system is up and running we believe it will pay large dividends not only for planning authorities but for developers as well and for all who have an interest in the planning system. It will provide a firmer and clearer framework for decisions on individual planning applications avoiding the need for so many appeals.
The last major component of the Bill concerns compulsory purchase and land compensation. Parts III and IV, like the remainder of the Bill, have the objective of improving both the basic fairness of the system and the efficiency with which it operates.
Broadly speaking, compensation is payable when people's rights over land are taken away or damaged under statutory powers or under the threatened use of such powers. For many years now the statutory code governing the assessment of compensation in such circumstances has rested on the central principle that the claimant should be left neither better off nor worse off than he would have been if the question of compulsory purchase had not arisen. Compensation is accordingly calculated by reference to the proper value of the land in the open market, discounting, however, any effect on that value of the actual proposal for which the land is required.
In continuing to uphold the basic structure of the compensation regime we none the less accept the need to give claimants a better deal. That is the main purpose of the provisions in Part III and IV. In particular, we have concluded that further provision is needed in respect of those who lose their homes as a result of compulsory purchase. Such people are of course compensated on the basis of the market value of their interest in the property and will continue also to be reimbursed in respect of their incidental expenses such as professional fees and removal costs. However, compensation purely for financial loss takes no account of the personal distress which can arise when someone is forced to move from his home in these circumstances. The additional home loss payment to which displaced householders are normally entitled helps.
Clauses 47 and 49 provide a fairer approach by modifying the home loss payment rules so that in future owner-occupiers receive a straight percentage of the value of their property. This we propose should be 10 per cent., subject to a minimum of £1,500 and a maximum of £15,000. The payment for non-owner occupiers will remain at a flat rate of £1,500. However, we are reducing the residence qualification for all claimants from five years down to one, which will substantially increase the number of people entitled to payments. We are also broadening the entitlement in a number of other respects—for example, to include those whose homes are acquired under the statutory
912
blight procedure. These changes are so significant that we have provided for them to take effect from 16th November, the day following the Bill's introduction in your Lordships' House.
I shall not at this stage go into detail on the other compensation provisions. They include, for instance, an extension of authorities' powers to purchase properties which are likely to be badly affected by public works and a significant broadening of entitlement to interest on compensation. No doubt we shall have an opportunity to look at these matters more closely when we reach Committee stage. It may be helpful to your Lordships if I say that for that stage we intend to bring forward certain additional provisions on compensation which because of their complexity are unfortunately not yet complete. One of these provisions will provide for additional compensation to owners in cases where the value of land increases as a result of a planning permission granted after compulsory acquisition. This provision, which involves the revival, with some amendments, of Part IV of the Land Compensation Act 1961, will be substantial. We shall ensure that your Lordships are given adequate time to study these provisions and that appropriate briefing notes are made available. I personally undertake to write to noble Lords on all Benches with as early notice as possible of both the amendment and explanatory notes to that amendment.
As I have said, our main aim in the compensation provisions has been to make the system fairer. If these provisions also have the result of making people less inclined to oppose necessary public development projects so that those projects are less subject to delay, that will be an additional justification. Indeed, this is an instance when the interests of fairness and efficiency are not in conflict.
This Bill applies to England, Wales and Scotland. I have sought to mention the Scottish clauses along with their counterparts for England and Wales. I have also already briefly described Clause 41, which is the only Scottish provision in the Bill which does not reflect provisions for England and Wales.
On the other hand, I should draw your Lordships' attention to a number of areas in which there are no such parallel Scottish measures. Principal among those are the provisons for streamlining the development plan system, since the framework for that system in Scotland differs from England and Wales. The existing Scottish system works well, with complete structure plan coverage and 80 per cent. of local plans either adopted or already finalised. The time taken in preparing and processing structure plans has been halved in the last five years. We therefore propose to retain the existing regime unamended.
Because the planning framework and planning practice differ in Scotland, we have concluded that no Scottish provision is needed in relation to some of the development control provisions, including those concerning planning obligations, local authorities' own developments, applications relating to county matters and the operation of the award of costs in appeal cases. The Bill also contains no Scottish

913
provision relating to simplified planning zones or to the procedures involved in applications for planning permission. These have been the subject of recent public consultations, the outcome of which I would not want to prejudge.
With the particular exceptions that I have mentioned, our general intention is to have our proposals take effect both north and south of the Border. Where the Bill does not yet achieve this we shall be bringing forward appropriate amendments.
Fairness and efficiency are the themes of the Bill as a whole. We have consulted widely on its provisions and in the light of the responses received to those consultations we believe that our proposals command wide acceptance. Some respondents would have liked us to go further in one direction or another but the Government consider that the proposals in the Bill strike the right balance.
I began this speech by remarking on the value of the planning system as an instrument for resolving difficult questions about land use. This Bill is designed to make the instrument work better. That is something we all want and it is in that spirit I commend the Bill to the House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Baroness Blotch.)
3.31 p.m.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister for the lucid way in which she expounded the major provisions of the Bill. It has been widely greeted as an uncontroversial Bill. I suggest to your Lordships that it is as remarkable for what it does not include as for what it does. That which it does not include takes two forms.
First, we are glad that it does not include the widespread attack on land use planning and strategic land use planning which existed in Right-wing circles not many years ago. It was only in the early 1980s that government discouraged local authorities from producing local and structure plans unless they were essential for development purposes. We are pleased to see that the Minister and the Government have recognised the value of strategic land use planning and are now proposing that strategic land use plans and local plans be extended as rapidly as possible to cover the whole country. That is in accordance with the thinking in local authority and economic circles that has existed since the war and in some cases before then. After all, it was Lewis Silkin who in the Town and Country Planning Act 1947 set the first framework for planning in this country.
I turn now to the other aspect which is not included in the Bill. It is remarkable that planning legislation has been relatively stable compared with many other aspects of social policy. This Government in particular have found it necessary to bring forward almost annually Bills attacking local government and altering housing legislation. By comparison our planning legislation has been stable. The legislators of the 1968 Act are to be congratulated on the fact that this Bill is the first major revision of that legislation. It also shows that in many respects, which I do not
914
intend to minimise, land use planning is a matter of cross-party agreement on all sides of the House. We are pleased that the Bill does not contain the wilder attacks on strategic planning which have been expressed in some circles in recent years. We are also pleased that in this respect, if in no other, the Government have returned to consensus politics.
There are two possible ways of looking at strategic planning. The first is a concern for development and the efficiency and economy of the process. That concern is paramount in the Government's minds in drafting the Bill. The second is concern for environmental protection. Again I pay tribute to the Government's environmental protection White Paper published in September which made clear that strategic planning is an essential tool of environmental protection. Those two aspects are not necessarily in conflict. However, in looking at the legislation that is required to reform the planning process we should have in mind the needs of the development process and environmental protection.
With the exception of specific occasions, our approach to the Bill will not be to attack its proposals as regards enforcement and compensation. We certainly shall not attack those parts which seek to make enforcement and development control procedures more effective than they are now. However, our approach will be to seek to ensure that environmental considerations come to the forefront of the consideration of planning authorities, developers and all others concerned with the use of the precious land in this country.
In considering environmental protection we shall be dealing with a number of specific points which are not included in the Bill but which must be introduced by way of amendment. For example, the Bill contains no reference to environmental assessment. Noble Lords who are aware of what is happening outside Winchester will know that the proposals put forward by the Department of Transport to drive a road through Twyford Down have gone to Brussels on the grounds that there was inadequate environmental assessment. We do not know the result of the case, but lying behind British law there is a requirement of the European Community that there should be environmental assessment for all major development programmes. The question that we must ask is why the opportunity was not taken to introduce that desirable concept into planning law. This is the first major planning Bill for more than 20 years. Surely it would have been possible to include that concept in the planning procedures and provide in the Bill that planning authorities must take account of their environmental assessment duties.
Secondly, an issue that has come to the fore in recent years has been the need for better public participation in the planning process. Too often our planning process has been seen to be a private duel between local authorities and developers. It is not even a requirement on local authorities to notify the neighbours or surrounding occupiers of land which is the subject of a planning application. However, most local authorities, and all the good authorities, do so as

915
a matter of course. Surely in drafting the Bill the opportunity should have been taken to introduce public participation as a statutory right. Surely, the opportunity should have been taken to ensure that not only notification in advance but participation in the process is available to everyone concerned with the use of the land in the area.
Thirdly, there is the issue of the scope of the planning laws. There are too many exceptions to our existing planning laws. The main exception is agriculture and forestry, but I do not suggest that all changes of use under those headings should be brought under planning control. However, as our agriculture and forestry needs alter, some of those changes should be brought under planning control. The local planning planning authorities should have the opportunity to consider, for example, what happens to agricultural buildings—not merely those of historical interest but those whose existing use is no longer relevant. Therefore, in that respect we shall seek to extend the scope of planning legislation.
We shall seek also to eliminate some of the less justifiable exclusions from the Bill, notably urban development corporations. We shall seek to see to it that proper consideration is given to the specific needs of national parks, of national nature reserves, of the statutory obligations of the National Rivers Authority, of areas of outstanding natural beauty, of sites of special scientific interests and so on. While there is provision in legislation for overall plans by the national parks authorities, we believe that that could be strengthened with advantage.
Therefore, there are many ways in which environmental considerations, in line with the Government's own statement of intent in their September White Paper, could and should be brought within the scope of the Bill.
I want now to deal with some specific problems, not all of which have ready answers. However, they should be debated when considering this Bill. Of course, enforcement occupies a major part of the Bill and we welcome nearly all of the provisions which are made for improved enforcement. There are exceptions which are still unclear but it would not be valuable for me to go into a great deal of detail about those.
As regards the whole issue of planning gain under Section 106, which local authorities still think of as Section 52, we welcome much of the provision made in the Bill and we particularly welcome what the Minister has just said; namely, that an amendment will be introduced to permit involvement of the Crown in those undertakings. However, we are very worried about one particular provision; that is, that developers will be able not only to negotiate planning agreements with local authorities but also to enter into unilateral undertakings which will be a material consideration in any appeal to the Secretary of State.
There are many difficulties about such unilateral undertakings. The first is that local authorities will be excluded in the formulation of those unilateral undertakings. That is what "unilateral" means.
916
However they will not be excluded from their enforcement. Therefore, they will have to enforce undertakings to which they have not been party. Those undertakings are unlikely to pay adequate attention to the land use issues for which local authorities are responsible. They will not pay adequate attention to the complementary provision which may be required from a local authority to take advantage of the undertakings made by developers.
For example, if a developer says, in order to obtain planning permission, that he is prepared to provide land for public open space, that sounds very well but a local authority must maintain that. That will involve expenditure. If he is to provide an access road, that sounds very well but the access road must be maintained by a local authority and the local authority must be sure that the access road is in the right place and is not damaging in other ways. Under the unilateral undertaking proposal, there is no provision for local authorities to perform their real duties in relation to development plans and to the kind of development which will be the subject of the old Section 52 agreement. Therefore, we shall certainly seek major modifications, if not the total elimination of those proposals for unilateral undertakings.
A major cause of anxiety will always be the issue of deemed consent; that is, consent where the local authority owns the land and gives itself permission for some change of use. Some of the more damaging proposals which had been suggested on that subject are not included in the Bill and we are grateful for that. Certainly, the provision that a county council should have to seek consent from the relevant district council where a change of use of county land is proposed, and in particular when the change runs counter to the local plan, is of considerable value.
Again, there is the problem that the restrictions on deemed consent do not apply to urban development corporations. We would wish that anomaly to be removed.
However, there is a particular difficulty as regards metropolitan borough councils and district councils. They are the local planning authorities and have virtually all the powers and responsibilities. They must see to it that what they do with their own land conforms with what their own formulated and published plans provide.
There seem to me to be only two ways to deal with that. The first, by stipulating that any development of that sort must be referred to the Secretary of State or to a third party, would give rise to a quite intolerable degree of centralisation. In effect that would mean that a district council would not be master in its own house.
The other approach, which I prefer and which I think should be provided for in the Bill, is that there should be a measure of self regulation in the use of deemed planning consent. For example, there could be a requirement that the deemed planning consent should be given only after the matter has been considered by committees other than the user committee of the land. It could be a requirement that

917
it should be considered only by the full council so that all interests concerned can be taken into account. It could well be a requirement that there should be particularly stringent requirements for public consultation when deemed planning consent is under consideration. It should certainly be a requirement that there should be a code of practice, possibly even a statutory code of practice, to make sure that there was no abuse of deemed planning consent.
Another issue to which there is no easy answer, although it arises very strongly from the part of the Bill which is concerned with enforcement procedures, is criminalisation. That is a horrible word. However, here we are talking about the difference between making it an offence to carry out a development which is in conflict with planning permission and, as the Bill proposes, making it an offence to be in breach of an enforcement order.
Let there be no mistake that the enforcement order procedure is better than that which we have at present. We believe this to be an improvement on existing provisions and we shall not oppose enforcement procedures. However, the Bill states that a local authority has a discretion as to whether to undertake enforcement. That has led some people, particularly in the town planning profession, to suggest that we do not require a voluntary discretionary enforcement procedure but compulsory enforcement procedures on local authorities. Those people argue—and I see the point—that in the end that would be a better use of local authority resources than the consideration which must be given now as to whether to go in for enforcement orders.
The other approach which has been urged on us by quite a number of people, and which has considerable merit, is to say that it should be the non-conforming development which forms the offence. An analogy is given with building regulations, whereby it immediately becomes an offence to build something which is in conflict with the building regulations. In that case one need not wait for an enforcement order but one can prosecute immediately. I am not sure that the balance of that argument has been fully explored or that we are in a position to come to a conclusion about the matter. However, we can be sure that it will be a subject for debate in Committee and that noble Lords representing particular interests will wish to bring it to the attention of the House.
I referred to the issue of public participation; I do not believe I need go over the ground again. There is still debate regarding compensation. We welcome the provision for increasing home loss payments. We are fully aware of the danger that in going too far along that road we may be damaging development rather than protecting conservation. At the same time, once a development has been agreed it is better that it should be completed quickly and painlessly rather than over a protracted period of time. Therefore we welcome the home loss payments that are proposed.
We question whether the payments go far enough. In France, which has a reputation for sometimes riding roughshod over local opinion but more often for buying local opinion in favour of what it is trying
918
to do, there are compensatory payments of 20 or even 25 per cent. of the market value of the property. That certainly means that matters proceed more quickly. It may mean that there is a saving. Delays in major construction programmes are very expensive. Increased payments however expensive they may be—I note the provision of £50 million for that in the Bill—may be cheaper than unnecessary de lays in carrying out developments already agreed.
Above all we want to examine the whole issue of structure and local plans. I have said how much we on these Benches welcome the Government's determination to see that structure plans and local plans cover the whole of the country as quickly as possible. We believe that at the same time we should be using those plans to better effect. The issue of whether or not a proposed development conforms to a plan should be a major consideration in whether planning procedures are eased or not. For example, whether a development is or is not in conformity with the local structure plan, the two must be in conformity with each other. If the development is in conformity it should go through more quickly and rights of appeal should perhaps be curtailed. Where it is not in conformity with the local plan extra obstacles should be placed upon it.
Rights of appeal should be extended possibly even to the extent of there being a limited right of appeal against planning permission which has been granted; for example, a right of appeal to those who have been statutorily consulted in the planning process. That could include a parish council or town hall community council, the National Rivers Authority, the authorities of national parks or other organisations which must be consulted on the procedure and which, I suggest, should have a right to appeal when their representations are not given adequate consideration. In all those respects the existence of a complete network of plans is to be welcomed. But we must find ways of making those plans more effective than the Bill at present provides.
The final issue which I wish to consider briefly is one which still comes up in the Government's thinking, whether or not they want it. It concerns the tendency towards greater centralisation. I mentioned urban development corporations. It may be that on occasion they have been instituted with the agreement of the local authorities concerned. They perhaps saw no other way of obtaining the money necessary to do the work in their area. Nevertheless, is it not now the case that the exemption from planning control given to urban development corporations has, to say the least, run its time? Perhaps we should now establish a time limit within which we shall get rid of it, making our structure and local plans complete rather than having black holes in them.
Perhaps we should be taking the opportunity in Part I to reduce the role of the Secretary of State in regard to structure and local plans. It is possible that a Secretary of State of ill will—I do not suggest the present Secretary of State is such a person—could limit Part I in such a way that it was concerned only with land use planning and could not be concerned

919
with other issues such as transport energy consumption, the viability of the local economy and so on. Perhaps now is the time for the Secretary of State to abandon the idea of regional planning guidance. Why should there not be encouragement, even, if necessary, enforcement, to see that local authorities get together in regional groups and produce their own regional plans which would be their own responsibility and not subject to the whim of the Secretary of State. It is wrong for such regional planning to come down from Marsham Street rather than being the responsibility of the local authorities in the area.
I have taken up too much of your Lordships' time. There are other examples of centralisation. All I say is that where we find it on the face of the Bill we shall seek to eliminate it. In many ways the Bill, as described by the Minister in her opening speech, is a good Bill. Many parts of it will deserve and receive the support of noble Lords on these Benches. What is sad is the extent to which opportunities have been missed to make it a great Bill.
3.55 p.m.
Lord Ross of Newport: My Lords, I also thank the Minister for her explanation and welcome her indication of further amendments which, on the whole, we look forward to; they appear to be on the right lines. It is a Bill which for the most part appears to command almost universal approval among the various interested bodies. I suspect the Minister must be greatly relieved, following her ordeals with Part VII of the Environmental Protection Act, that this Bill is not so controversial.
Planning at both local and county level is once again in favour, following four or more years of virtual blight during the course of which many experienced local planning officers either moved into the private sector or sought early retirement. While there are, no doubt, many excellent qualified people around—there is a lot of redundancy in the professions at the moment—who could be attracted back into local authority planning departments, the ability of the authorities adequately to finance such appointments and obtain the best people to take them up must be questioned, threatened as they are with charge-capping. That is a serious point.
I know the Minister has great experience of local government. My knowledge of the situation is that it is not always easy to ensure that planning departments are adequately staffed. Too many experienced people have left, completely and utterly worn out and dispirited by what has happened over the past few years. That is just one of the many legacies of the former Secretary of State for the Environment.
If enforcement is to succeed extra manpower will be needed. Of course I want it to succeed. One would have liked the scope of the Bill to be wider, particularly in respect of compulsory acquisition and the current code of practice regarding compensation. As a chartered surveyor practising 16 years ago on an offshore island I cannot claim much personal experience of major road and rail schemes. They were
920
not exactly the order of the day in the Isle of Wight, though that may be about to change. However, I know how bitter some owner occupiers may feel when their home or part of it is injuriously affected or due to be acquired through a compulsory purchase order.
For many years in the other place I was pursued by a freeholder from Kent—nothing whatever to do with the Channel Tunnel scheme—who felt that he had been robbed of his home and his wife; she died during the course of the very protracted negotiations. To add insult to injury his property, having been acquired at a figure he thought was derisory, was not in the end demolished due to a change in the road scheme. The Minister spoke in those terms and I sympathise with what she said.
At that time I initiated some research into what could be done to improve matters. For a Private Member's Bill, it is a far too complicated subject. Although I prepared a short three clause Bill I never had the opportunity to present it, and I do not believe it would have made much progress if I had. However, as the Minister said, in April 1989 the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors published a detailed case for simplifying and strengthening the compensation code. One or two of those recommendations, as was rightly indicated, appear in the Bill, particularly the clauses relating to blight. I would, however, be interested to know whether any further changes are envisaged, perhaps in future legislation or amendments to this Bill, following those representations by the RICS and others. They are well thought out and deserve a more serious response than we have had so far.
The additional payment to home owners is very welcome. The fact that these payments will become operative immediately is a helpful and totally just decision. However, should not this concession be extended to all those whose property is compulsorily acquired and not just to home owners? For example, should not business premises be included, with their difficulty in moving staff, travel problems, compensation for people who lose their jobs, and so on? The Bill should be wider than it is but I recognise that the Government have gone a long way in this direction and are therefore to be congratulated.
As one who strongly opposed the whole introduction of charges for planning applications when they were introduced in the other place—I sat on the Committee—I must say that I still feel that they are wrong in principle, more particularly now as they are of a substantial nature in some cases. I am grateful that at least the Government have not come forward with the proposed charges for planning appeals. That proposal has been abandoned, and I am grateful for that.
I also very much agree with the two-year moratorium, but I am not entirely clear on the explanation given. Will it enable an applicant to go back to the local authority within the two years and try his luck again? The authority can say, "No, we are turning this down because it was turned down on appeal so many months ago", but he can come forward again with the application. I suggest that he

921
should not be allowed to come forward with a planning application of any kind on that property while the two-year moratorium exists. To do so would be wasting time.
I have seen cases which have staggered me. In one case a farmer was turned down on a local application for converting a barn into private residences. He failed on appeal but a year later he was selling properties for over £80,000, having gone back again and obtained permission. He must have twisted somebody's arm, but he succeeded. I do not think that he should have been allowed to do that. The local protection societies, the CPRE and other organisations, may possibly have attended the appeal and may even have instructed solicitors or counsel, but they suddenly find that all the arguments that they won on appeal have subsequently failed. Therefore, an amendment to deal with that aspect could be dealt with in Committee. Nevertheless, the moratorium is to be welcomed and it is long overdue. Incidentally, the RSPB would like to see a five-year moratorium.
I am pleased to see that changes are proposed for applications made by local authorities in respect of land in their own ownership. I have never thought that to be right. It is an invitation to create financial resources for all the wrong reasons and should have been dealt with long ago. However, I still believe that the proposed regulations as outlined in the Bill do not appear to be strict enough, so I hope that we shall be able to stiffen up this part of the Bill in Committee.
For my part, as one who supports the introduction of a regional tier of administration for England, I would leave decisions on such matters to such a tier, but I agree that it is a difficult area. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, referred to the matter and I have some sympathy for his suggestion that regional structures, with a number of local authorities and counties getting together, might be one way of dealing with the matter. It is not an easy problem.
I hope that I may be pertinent by saying that one of the contenders for the Prime Ministership—I suspect it will be Mr. Heseltine—has some interesting ideas for the future of local government which I totally support. His ideas for a directly elected chief executive is exactly on the right lines. That would give some power back to the towns and counties of this land.
My colleague, my noble friend Lord Hampton, has a Motion down for debate on Wednesday week relating to problems of land use in Britain today. The subject is rightly exercising the minds of many professionals and politicians at present. Incidentally, it is to be featured by the National Housing Forum in National Housing Week next year. I happen to chair that organisation.
In a recent important discussion paper the Town and Country Planning Association reminds us that during the last decade the regional economic planning councils have been abolished and the presumed role of the former metropolitan authorities has been left vacant. Apart from some regional guidance notes, there has been no update in the strategic plans for many parts of the country, including the North West
922
and, for that matter, London and the South East. That is particularly important and pertinent and goes back to 1970.
The RICS has responded to the TCPA paper only this morning, and I have received a copy. The response endorses the concept put forward in the paper, though it makes some corrections. The RICS confirms the view that there needs to be strategic thinking and planning at all levels, including a European dimension, so that planning becomes more than a purely reactive process. It is the form of guidance which gives rise to the problem. Perhaps this is taking us into a field which ought to have been covered in the White Paper on the environment and is beyond the remit of this Bill; though I very much agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, on the lack of any provision for environmental assessments. I hope that that, even now, might be taken on board.
Nevertheless, the intention of streamlining the county structure plans is a real step in the right direction and we must be grateful at least for that. However, I give notice that we intend to table amendments in Committee covering some of these matters at least in regard to London, the SSSIs and coastal zone planning. Here, I must refer back to some of the issues raised during the passage of the Environmental Protection Act, particularly in regard to SSSIs. I apologise for doing so, but it is an area which could be covered in this Bill.
A brief given to me by the RSPB states that the NCC's 16th annual report is to be published tomorrow and it shows that over 4,000 acres of SSSI land were damaged by developments where planning permission had been granted. Perhaps we can do something in this Bill about that situation. I am told—I have to be very careful when speaking about Scottish matters and I notice that the Minister was also somewhat cautious—that under Scottish planning regulations any unresolved objections by the Nature Conservancy Council relating to planning proposals affecting certain kinds of SSSIs are to be referred to the Secretary of State for Scotland. The RSPB would welcome an amendment to the Bill which applies the call-in procedure for unresolved objections on any SSSI in the whole of Great Britain. That would enable development proposals affecting an SSSI to be considered in a national and international context.
The report points out—and I know this very well, now that I live in Shropshire—that the NCC has spent some £1.6 million to purchase the Fens and Whixal Mosses SSSI in north Shropshire. In fact, I believe they are mostly in Clwyd in North Wales. That kind of expenditure might not have been needed if we had regulations providing a mechanism for reviewing planning permissions prior to the notification of an SSSI and providing funds to local authorities to enable them to compensate owners following withdrawal of planning permission.
There is a serious case at present in South Wales—whether this Bill will cover it, I do not know—where local residents and small farmers have found that a nationally known minerals company is claiming that it has the right to extract minerals from all over their

923
land arising from a consent given well prior to 1947. The case is going to the High Court and I made a contribution to the appeal made by those who are fighting it. Perhaps that situation could have been dealt with in the Bill. The situation is grossly unfair. The right of extraction did not appear in any of the searches when the people purchased their land. The lawyers and the local authorities are not to blame and it is wrong that the situation should exist.
I also hope to table amendments in regard to coastal zone planning. This matter is of great concern to the country. Again, I understand that the Nature Conservancy Council, before it ceases operations in a Great Britain context, will be publishing a document on the subject, possibly in January. We should like to see a new clause in the Bill which places a duty on local authorities who border coastal and estuarine areas to prepare coastal zone plans to promote the sustainable use of the coasts and foreshores in the area. The pressure in that respect is now off because developers are now rather more cautious about the way they spend their money, but at one time there was an enormous number of applications for marinas, and so on, on our estuaries and coastal areas and there is great concern about the future.
I have some sympathy for Clause 12 regarding planning agreements, but that could be abused with last minute attractive concessions being offered at planning appeals. One can envisage a form of plea bargaining in US terms. I agree that planning gain can produce excellent facilities for local organisations and provide receipts for local government.
There was a case in my old town of Newport, on the Isle of Wight, where we had a brand new football pitch, a marvellous shopping area and about 70 or 80 acres given to the local authority. It worked extremely well and the local authority got what it wanted. However, it had to be properly tied up, which it was. Such schemes must be legally backed and adequate resources made available. That is one of the difficulties of these kinds of bargain. I certainly welcome the amendment which the Minister announced to the effect that Crown land is to be included in these provisions. I realise that in opposition one will always say that a Bill does not go far enough. However, this measure already has 55 clauses and 11 schedules so it is more than a minor Bill. I hope that during the Committee stage we shall make it into a major Bill. I welcome the Bill.
4.10 p.m.
Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I intend to speak briefly to lay down markers in relation to certain amendments that will be tabled to Clauses 47 and 48, which relate to compensation. I apologise to the House in advance because I may have to leave before the end of the debate. I shall read the noble Baroness's summing-up with care if I have to leave.
In a transaction between a willing buyer and a willing seller a price is agreed on the basis of three factors—the existing use value, the hope value and what the noble Baroness has described as the personal
924
distress value of having to make a sale in certain cases. The main burden of compulsory compensation relates only to existing use value. There are provisions in the Land Compensation Act 1973 for covering the cost of displacement in relation to farms, businesses and other kinds of land. There is no provision for covering the development and hope value of the land under compulsory purchase or for personal distress value, except in so far as happily the Government have agreed to the principle of an increased level of home loss payments.
The noble Lord, Lord Ross, has already asked whether there is justification for other kinds of loss payments such as farm loss. I believe that he also mentioned business loss payments. In the case of farms and woodlands there is an attachment which would make a reasonable vendor unwilling in many cases to sell at an existing use value.
There is a more serious injustice than that. Land which is compulsorily purchased is often not entirely used to provide a public service for the use of a statutory undertaker. Often parts of the land are used for commercial activities. We all accept that compulsory purchase is absolutely necessary so that various activities can take place for the public good. Surely it is not intended to give windfall profits to commercial enterprises or that compulsory purchase should be used as a tool for cheating landowners of the benefits of the development value which they could reasonably have anticipated.
Therefore, amendments will be tabled at Committee stage relating to land loss payments along the lines of the home loss payments, which will include an extension to farms and woodlands. Amendments will also be set down relating to land acquired by compulsory purchase order on behalf of a commercial enterprise, the whole or a part of which will be used for such an enterprise, suggesting that the vendor should in some way participate in the added value as well as the existing use value.
Another amendment is being suggested, although it may be overtaken by a government amendment to which the noble Baroness referred, to the effect that within five years of acquisition, if planning permission is granted for certain kinds of development, additional compensation should be payable.
4.15 p.m.
Lord Montagu of Beaulieu: My Lords, as one who over the past 30 years has suffered considerable problems with the eccentricities of planning and the resulting delays, I welcome this Bill. In declaring my interest as chairman of English Heritage, I note that the Bill is primarily concerned with mainstream planning and not at all with heritage protection. Therefore, while it does not provide an entirely appropriate home for heritage amendments, there are four points concerning the man-built environment which I wish to raise this afternoon. I also give warning that I intend to introduce amendments at Committee stage which I hope will prove non-controversial and acceptable to all parts of the House and the Government.

925
My first point is to seek to amend the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act 1953, which allows English Heritage to assist financially local authorities and the National Trust to acquire buildings so as to secure their preservation. This has worked reasonably well, but it has become increasingly clear over the past 10 years or more that the main agencies for rescuing derelict historic buildings have been the local and county historic building preservation trusts. Therefore, in appropriate circumstances we would like to assist these excellent bodies to acquire important historic buildings, but as the law stands today we are unable to do so. Without this power our work in rescuing buildings at risk is very severely hampered.
English Heritage would like to be in a position to assist financially any person or body concerned with the acquisition, restoration and preservation of what we regard as a suitable building. It may suffice simply to generalise the relevant section of the 1953 Act by removing the reference to the National Trust and substituting a reference to "any person" or to "any building preservation trust".
My second point concerns enforcement. My proposal would be to amend Section 38 of the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 which empowers a local planning authority to serve an enforcement notice where damaging works are being or have been carried out on a listed building without listed building consent. This power is used when an owner is removing doors, windows or whatever and thereby destroying the character of a building which is on the Goverment's list of protected buildings.
However, as the law stands, the notice has no effect for 28 days after it has been served. Therefore, for 28 days the owner may legally continue with his destructive activities, and often does. English Heritage feels very strongly that it is essential to amend Section 38 to give immediate effect to the enforcement notice. In view of the irreversible nature of the damage which is likely to be caused to listed buildings by unauthorised works, and sometimes the undoubted advantages to the owner or the developer who wants to destroy a building, we consider that a Section 38 enforcement notice should require that the work to which it relates ceases on the date on which the notice is served and that there should be no right of compensation.
My third proposed amendment is to Section 89 of the same Act which empowers local planning authorities and the Secretary of State to require the occupier of any premises to give information, including the names and addresses of all persons having an interest in the premises, to enable the service of a notice or an order under the provisions of the Act. However, historically such notices are not applicable in London. English Heritage requires this power in order to exercise a range of functions under the Act which have been conferred on it in greater London. We have in mind a simple amendment giving English Heritage Section 89 powers in London so that, for example, when we propose to take action over the
926
state of a particular historic building we may readily discover the names and addresses of the persons we should be pursuing.
Lastly, I shall seek to move an amendment to the National Heritage Act 1983. That is the Act which set up English Heritage. As noble Lords will know, the official title is the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England. One of our principal duties, laid down by Parliament, is to secure the preservation of historic buildings and ancient monuments. That fact alone should justify giving power to English Heritage to bring legal proceedings in its own name. When English Heritage was first established, we also assumed that the right to initiate legal proceedings was implicit in the nature of the duties imposed upon us. However, after taking legal advice, we soon discovered that we were wrong in that assumption.
The weapons available to us to defend the built heritage are varied and many; but the absence of this particular weapon from our armoury has proved to be a serious deficiency. What we have in mind is an amendment to Clause 33 giving English Heritage a power to seek injunctions and a general power to prosecute where it appears that unauthorised works have been or are being carried out to a listed building.
Perhaps I may remind noble Lords that such powers are already conferred on local authorities by Section 222 of the Local Government Act 1972. English Heritage, for its part, would seek to exercise the powers either jointly in collaboration with a local authority or, as would be necessary on occasions, in default of action by a local authority.
When we reach the Committee stage, I hope that the Government will look sympathetically on these amendments and that the House will support them. The amendments are not fundamental, but they will certainly help English Heritage to do a better job, which I am sure is the wish of the whole House.
4.21 p.m.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, planning legislation is the ultimate expression of any government's attitude towards the environment. If the provisions in legislation are sensible, clear, comprehensive and are supported by strong sanctions against abuse, then it can be assumed that the intentions of the legislators are firm, clear and determined. General statements of intent are all very well, but it is the planning system which has to guide development, settle conflicts and ultimately ensure that we live in a sympathetic environment, whether that be in the town or in the country. In our over-crowded country it is planning control, or lack of it, which will determine our landscape, our supporting infrastructure and even the survival of our wildlife.
The Government's White Paper This Common Inheritance endorses the principle of sustainable development. It is therefore disappointing that the Bill seems more concerned with efficiency in terms of speed of decision making and financial control than with an environmentally sound result. I welcome the measures to simplify and improve the provisions for the enforcement of planning control, as set out in Clauses

927
1 to 11. As my noble friend Lord McIntosh of Haringey said so eloquently, it is in everyone's interest that breaches should be avoided, and the existence of strong powers backed by appropriate sanctions is a useful deterrent. But it must be mandatory on local authorities to take action once a breach is identified, otherwise the sanctions become meaningless.
There is a need to enhance the status of development plans. In 1988–89 37 per cent. of all appeals were successful in overturning local authority decisions. The Bill should identify development plans as the primary material consideration in determining applications and appeals. That view is supported by the Council for the Protection of Rural England. It also believes that there should be a more positive approach to the issue of the awards of costs on planning inquiries. In its briefing the CPRE says that there should be,
"an expansion of the procedures to allow costs to be awarded against appellants who withdraw before a public inquiry opens. CPRE is greatly concerned by the current imbalance in the costs procedures. Between 1987 and 1990 local authorities were 6.5 times more likely to have costs awarded against them than appellants".
The implications of that statement in local authority terms are very clear.
As my noble friend Lord McIntosh said, it is important that structure plans and local plans should not be in conflict. That may appear to be stating the obvious but there have been occasions when local plans were issued with a certificate of compliance when this was clearly incorrect. Procedures for the examination of applications must be improved. There is a need to achieve a stronger and more coherent approach to nature conservation in the production of all development plans. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds has recently completed a study of development plans in England and Wales. It analysed 56 county structure plans for nature conservation implications and it uncovered many shortcomings. The report (which I recommend to your Lordships for some weekend reading) reveals unevenness of approach between counties.
Even sites with important designations, such as sites of special scientific interest, special protection areas and RAMSAR sites, were not assured of a consistent level of protection, and very few counties committed themselves to active conservation measures. Clearly there is a need to raise the profile of nature conservation and to try to achieve some equality of approach between authorities. We have been at pains to establish consistent criteria for the designation of important sites. We had long debates on this subject during the passage of Part VII of the Environmental Protection Bill. This effort will be wasted if consistency of planning protection is not available.
I turn finally to marine areas. In her opening speech, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, mentioned coastal areas. I have been unable to find the relevant provisions in the Bill but I am sure the noble Baroness will tell me where they are. During the Report stage of the Environmental Protection Bill I introduced an
928
amendment (at col. 967 of the Official Report of 17th October 1990) which highlighted the need for coastline local authorities to introduce coastal zone plans. The amendment gained support from all sides of the House and was responded to sympathetically by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, who answered for the Government on that occasion. She indicated that a review of existing legislation on the marine environment was to be undertaken. This Bill could provide a vehicle for making a start on the unified approach which seems to be required. The Marine Conservation Society has produced a valuable report on the need to find a coherent way to protect the coast and coastal waters. In Committee I intend to pursue some of its suggestions which I hope will be acceptable to the Government.
The Bill provides a rare opportunity to give substance to the Government's many statements about their concern for environmental conservation. We intend to suggest possible improvements in Committee and I hope that many of them will be acceptable to the Government.
4.28 p.m.
Lord Wade of Chorlton: My Lords, it is something of a coincidence that I should speak after the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, who is a delightful person. My emphasis in regard to the Bill will be different from hers. She has emphasised the need for the Bill to protect the environment. What I look for in a Bill of this kind is the encouragement of investment and development.
The noble Baroness seeks to encourage environmental protection, although we probably do not differ so very much about that. I am anxious that we should use planning legislation to encourage rather than to discourage. Those who should decide on these matters are the district councils and the county councils. They will respond to the desires of their areas. As we hear different views on how towns and the rural economy should develop, we may very well find differing views in some county council and district council areas.
People can now come and go more easily. Over the coming years there will be a tendency for some people to live in areas which encourage development and investment, and for others to live in those areas where there are wide open spaces and where the pace of life is a great deal slower. The people to decide that are, above all, the local authorities for the areas in which those people live, who represent, through elections, what people want to do. So I welcome the first part of this Bill relating to the power of local authorities to make their own decisions, and to those decisions not having to be made by the Minister.
I have been one of those who have been unhappy about strategic structural plans. When I was a member of the Cheshire County Council in the early 1970s, I was involved in the formulation of that strategic structural plan which turned out to be exactly the opposite of what was wanted. That was because no one could tell in the early 1970s how matters would develop over the next 20 years. The effect was that that structural plan was set in aspic, by people who

929
thought they knew what would happen, which caused many problems. So in addition to having structural plans which are the responsibility of the local authority, I hope that the plans will be allowed to ebb and flow as circumstances change, because those plans must not be established in such a way that the local community cannot adapt to what they see as changing circumstances and needs.
The other important aspect of this Bill is the compensatory sector. I have been a strong believer that compensation is something which we ought to encourage very much more. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, referred to it, as did the noble Lord, Lord Ross; I agree strongly with them that there is room to improve; to increase the compensatory allowance; and possibly to include some more flexibility, so that people can be encouraged to agree with what a local authority wants to do.
That would reduce the enormous delays that are now brought into our planning and development systems because of a very small minority using every possible nook and cranny to cause a delay about something which the vast majority of people want, and more importantly need, for the development of their area. I also strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Ross, in his suggestion that compensation should be widened to include more land and industrial uses, as well as other sections, because that is equally important.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, referred to agriculture and the need to look at planning in that area. If any changes are made in that area, I should like to see farms understood to be industrial units, so that in the event of a farm having to close—and we shall see a lot of this happening over the coming years —there is an automatic assumption that those buildings can be used for another industrial purpose, though not for housing, in order to maintain the economic viability of an area in one form or another. Only last week we debated the rural economy and the need to develop more wealth-creating opportunities in rural communities. Through this Bill, and flexibility in the use of buildings and existing structures in the countryside, we can ensure that extra wealth and development.
I welcome this Bill; but I should like to emphasise that if we move away from the system of having the Minister approve local plans and county council structure plans, we must make sure that he does not interfere and that counties are allowed to proceed quickly. We must also see that the suggestion that he can still intervene, should he feel it necessary, is not used as another delaying process which allows a small minority group to find excuses and to stop a local community from doing what is needed. I hope that through the compensatory system we can improve matters, and take away a lot of the other reasons for people delaying these activities.
4.34 p.m.
The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, in this Bill, which I warmly welcome, we have a great number of aspects to deal with and I want to concentrate on just a few of them.
So far as it goes, this Bill puts forward some very valuable new measures; but town and country planning must first be seen as a concept of good and efficient administration, and I question whether in all circumstances that is the case today.
First, there are problems with designations of one sort or another: restrictions that are imposed on uses of land. Those are very often imposed without a great deal of cohesion or unity of purpose. They may be for genuine planning reasons, which is to be greatly applauded and strengthened. But equally many noble Lords will know of circumstances where restrictions of one sort or another, under the terms of the various current planning codes, are imposed with quite ulterior motives in mind; perhaps even to disinvent legal uses without compensation. So the system is capable of being adversely manipulated at present.
In many instances there is inadequate provision for appeals to be dealt with against certain types of designation. I should like to quote one example under Section 3 of the Wildlife and Countryside (Amendment) Act, whereby land can be designated as Section 3 woodland, moorland or foreshore. There is provision for consultation, but there is no provision for any appeal against a designation which a landowner feels is distinctly unfair and incorrect.
There is a tendency these days for there to be creeping preservation, and this Bill adds a certain amount to that. This militates against a fair balance between private proprietorial interests and the undoubted public interest element. Many noble Lords will be aware that there are conflicts of interest which potentially lurk for planning authorities in the discharge of their functions. These can be overcome, and in many ways local authorities strive very hard to avoid them and they do an excellent job. But, with respect, the self-administration of a local planning authority's own planning applications, which is not something that is covered under the terms of this Bill, is something which creates a good deal of public unease.
Local authorities will have to decide whether they are to be impartial promoters of the public good, as indeed they should be, and eschew any suggestion that they should be acting in some way along the lines of a property company. I trust that I do not put it in too uncharitable words if I say that the public perception in many instances is that local authorities in certain areas do exactly that. Forward planning, which I believe this Bill attempts to encourage, is something to be warmly supported, and I welcome the improvements to the structure plan system. But I question a local planning authority's ability to respond, and particularly its resourcing of that aspect of its work.
On planning agreements, a unilateral undertaking, as mentioned in the Bill, is of fairly limited utility. The point behind all this is surely to get this murky

931
business of local planning authorities' shopping lists out of the closet so it can be seen quite clearly that they are for genuine planning purposes and are not being used as some cross-subsidy, some local tax, and therefore something which is not transparent—to use a taxation term. In short, on planning there is a very great deal of anxiety in my mind as to whether public confidence in the fairness with which the system is being administered is being eroded by current practices.
On compensation, there are some extremely good points which will go a long way to alleviate some of the worst injustices that have occurred over many years. I refer to the provisions on home loss payments and the blight provisions in particular. But there are difficulties with the fundamentals of assessing valuations, and the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Newport, touched on these. The Bill cannot overcome those. There are also some significant gaps in, for instance, the designations and controls (to which I referred earlier in my reference to planning) which can very often be imposed without any compensation being payable. I fear that this may get worse under the terms of the Bill rather than better.
The restrictions may be restrictions on what would otherwise be legitimate, legal activities. The noble Lord, Lord Wade, referred to farming. I agree with him wholeheartedly that one has to accept that there are certain base uses and existing user rights which must be treated as touchstones which trigger compensation if they are infringed. I do not see that happening under the Bill or under any other proposals which have been laid before your Lordships' House.
On the issue which has been already mentioned about the other uses to which land which is compulsory acquired may be put if it is not needed for the original purpose, I have to put down a marker that there is a difference between philanthropic aims directed towards society's need and the commercial aim of selling on land for vast profit. That is an injustice which must be remedied. It is an injustice which I see as being identified under the principles of the Crichel Down code. We should do well to carry forward that principle into the realms of compulsory acquisition and compensation. In short, land should be treated as if there were a perpetual covenant limiting its use to a purpose similar to that for which it was acquired.
In general, the Bill makes some significant advances which I support, but it is a question of balance and obtaining public confidence in the measures placed before your Lordships, which I hope will become part of our statute law. The Bill underestimates the degree of unease felt about the planning and compensation system as a whole. It is a matter of restoring public confidence as well as achieving economic efficiency and the abolition of unfair practices. By that I include those who take the law into their own hands and do things on their land for which they have no planning consent, flout the regulations and run rings around local planning authorities. That is wrong, and I
932
deplore that type of activity. In applying additional restraints, the legitimate aspirations of private and company land ownership must be respected.
4.42 p.m.
Lord Norrie: My Lords, the Bill allows us to look afresh at the planning system—an opportunity that has not arisen for almost 20 years. It confirms the Government's commitment to the planning system as a way of resolving conflicts over development. It will help restore public confidence in a system which often fails to meet their expectations.
We cannot underestimate the importance of the planning system to this crowded island. By providing a secure means of controlling the development and use of that scarcest of resources—land—it will ensure that it is used in the best public interest. Day in, day out, the planning system is working away to resolve conflicts, acting as a hidden quality control mechanism able to protect the countryside and improve the standards of development.
Although I welcome the Bill, I am disappointed by its limited scope. It moves us in the right direction but lacks the positive vision required to match accelerating public concern for the environment.
The planning system is not just about controlling development or protecting the countryside. It is central to what are popularly known as green issues. Through the tens of thousands of decisions the planning system makes each year it is a key mechanism for converting environmental concern into development which is sustainable. Perhaps the single most important aspect of the Bill is its proposal for the mandatory preparation of county structure and district local plans. That I welcome unreservedly. It will give us a complete planning framework for the first time. Only about one quarter of rural England (by population) has an adopted local plan at the moment.
The benefits of 100 per cent. coverage are unquestionable, but, the Bill could do more to ensure that those plans are implemented once prepared. Public confidence in the planning system reaches its lowest ebb when structure and local plans, agreed after extensive public consultation, are seemingly ignored when dealing with individual planning applications or on appeal. Too often they appear to be but one of many considerations, instead of the central guiding framework for decisions. A simple amendment to identify development plans as the primary material consideration when dealing with applications and appeals would ensure that the true benefits of the Bill's proposals could be secured.
I should also like to see a clearer recognition of the special position of national park authorities in the planning system. The Bill restricts them to the preparation of local plans and minerals plans for their area. That is a step forward, but they need to become joint structure plan authorities with their county council if they are to ensure firm protection of their special landscapes, otherwise our national parks will continue to be subject to damaging pressure from road and other developments beyond their boundaries and outside their control.

933
I turn now to the complex matter of enforcement. The Bill is a welcome response to mounting public and professional concern about the problems of enforcing planning control. It will simplify and strengthen the procedures. However, enforcement action remains discretionary, despite the frequent reluctance of local planning authorities to take action where clear breaches of control have occurred. The Bill should reduce that problem, but it does not go far enough.
I believe that the enforcement of planning control should be compulsory. There is nothing more likely to bring the planning system into disrepute than success for those who disregard it. Compulsory enforcement would ensure that local authorities gave the necessary priority to enforcement work and, most importantly, it would reduce the workload on local authorities in the long term because of its deterrent effect. Breaches would he less likely to occur if those committing them knew that they would be tackled firmly by the local authorities, using the new powers being placed at their disposal in the Bill.
I should like to reassure the House that that would not be a draconian measure. Similar requirements already exist under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 for the control of litter and the Control of Pollution Act 1974 for the control of nuisances. Moreover, enforcement action need not result in demolition or financial penalties if a retrospective planning application were to resolve the problem. Local authorities faced with a breach of planning control should be able to choose whether to take firm action or to treat the development as if it were a planning application. That would allow them to approve non-damaging developments, but ensure that they passed through the normal planning procedures.
In the simplest case where a house, for instance, is built without planning permission, it is important that the local authority is required to acknowledge that a breach of the planning system has occurred and either to require a planning application or to take necessary enforcement action.
I am afraid that the Bill omits too much. Perhaps it is too conservative. It does not provide the new powers the planning machine needs to meet the environmental challenges of the future. Most important is the missed opportunity for broadening assessment of the environmental impact of development and introducing environmental assessment directly into the planning legislation. It is ironic that the word "environment" is barely mentioned in one of the most important pieces of environmental legislation we have.
I shall be controversial for a moment. It is widely recognised that environmental assessment is one of the most important developments in environmental policy, and we are required by European directive to make it a formal part of our planning system. Would it not be more prudent, however, to introduce and extend those provisions for environmental assessment directly into our own legislation? That would allow us to extend the scope of environmental assessment throughout the United Kingdom and to lead the way in Europe. We could extend it beyond individual
934
projects to examine the environmental impact of structure and local plans and major environmental programmes.
Such a course would allow decisions to be made over future patterns of development with a fuller understanding of their environmental impact. For instance, the relative merits of out-of-town shopping centres versus high street improvements, or new settlements versus development of urban derelict land could be better assessed in terms of energy consumption, landscape impact and the wide range of other environmental implications.
It could also help to provide the integrated decisions over transport infrastructure with proposals for industrial and housing development recommended by the recent House of Commons Select Committee on Transport third special report entitled Roads for the Future. The environment and the location of development could determine necessary road building and not the other way around.
I am also concerned that the Bill falls short in other areas. It has little to say about how the public might be more involved in the planning process. It is extraordinary that there is no requirement for the public to be notified of most of the planning applications which are made. It does not address the problem that the public has no right of appeal against the granting of planning permission, however bad, unpopular or controversial the decision may be.
I must conclude with a note of concern about the continuing loopholes in the planning system through which major changes to the landscape as a result of agriculture and forestry operations can continue outside planning controls. The grubbing up of moorland, the ploughing of ancient meadows and the destruction of landscapes through large-scale afforestation and woodland clearance are each major land use changes, yet they fall outside the very system which is intended to control land use.
Checks are now needed through the planning system to ensure that the public interest in the countryside is fully protected. Of course, there should be substantial permitted development rights granted for any of the development brought within the planning system to allow small-scale changes without the necessity to apply for planning permission. For example, a farmer wishing to plant a small shelter belt would not need to apply for planning permission, just as he would not need to apply to build a small extension to his house.
I have covered a wide range of subjects. This is a reflection of the scope and importance of the planning system and this Bill. New solutions are needed which adjust our lifestyles more closely to the natural resources available to us. This Bill provides an early opportunity to introduce some of them. The planning machinery needs new oil, but it also needs new parts if we are to develop a responsive mechanism for making choices for a sustainable future.
4.52 p.m.
The Earl of Radnor: My Lords, I shall not keep the House long. With any luck, we shall all be able to go to the environment of the tearoom before tea stops being served. First, I wish to thank my noble friend Lady Blatch for the extraordinarily lucid way in which she put across what is to me a rather complicated Bill. I also wish to express the admiration which I always feel for the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, on his considerable knowledge of the subject, which, I must admit, I do not possess. My only excuse for rising today is that, like others, I wish to put down a marker for an amendment which I hope to bring forward myself or perhaps with others.
I have no complaint at all about the Bill and what it contains. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, felt that it was an uncontroversial Bill, but I thought that a number of amendments might flow from his pen which could alter our view later in debate in Committee and on Report.
Various clauses please me, ranging over planning obligations and replacing what I call Section 52 with a more flexible provision. As a beginner, I am not good at town planning and I saw that under Clause 10 one could ascertain what was permissible. As one who receives planning decisions, I find the whole process pregnant with doubt and difficulty, and the alteration must be useful to everybody. The extra payment for disturbance to a home must be right. Later I shall follow the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, in taking the matter further.
Arising from the debate, I wish to issue a word of warning. People should not get carried away and desire to plan everything. My noble friend who has just left the Chamber veers in that direction, as, with great respect, I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, does.
I agree that if a farm is abandoned, automatically there should be planning permission for the buildings to serve a sensible and useful purpose. However, let us keep planning out of the cultivation of crops, which is a business. That is a dangerous path to travel and I hope we shall not take it. We are near enough to planning trees, and that comes into the Bill. An amusing difficulty arose when a tree preservation order was placed on my land where there were no trees. The bureaucratic process took so long that Dutch elm disease had overtaken the situation, the trees were felled and there was a frightful stink about the matter. I am glad to say that it was happily resolved.
I wish to raise two points, one of which has been mentioned and one of which has not, and I do not think it occurs in the Bill in any form. I have noticed that with planners and planning law practically everything is covered: the duty aspect, the number of people who might wish to live there, whether there should be factories and so on. However, one process which always seems to go wrong is the examination of the water resources available for developments. All over the country rivers may not be disappearing but they carry less and less water. This might be the
936
opportunity to place some control on the planning authority to take care to ensure that rivers have enough water—that there will not just be another borehole in the chalk, thus reducing the flow of another chalk stream.
In my area, water is syphoned off—I do not know whether that is the right word—and goes to Bath, which is a long way away, to the detriment of the River Wylye. I live on a small chalk stream; I fished on it all my life until I had to stop. It now contains only half the water it had in earlier days and it has ceased to be a suitable stream for fish. I am not sure whether to put an amendment down on the subject, but I thought it sensible to bring the matter up because it is not properly covered in the Bill. I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Crickhowell is not here because I am sure that he would have had an answer to the problem—which may or may not have satisfied me.
I wish to bring up a matter which came at the end of the speech of my noble friend Lord Northbourne and which I have brought up already in your Lordships' House in discussions on the Channel Tunnel Bill—the compulsory purchase of land by the Government or the local authority. The land could subsequently be handed over, either through sale or lease, or however it is, with a third party using the asset to make money and profit from it. I brought the matter up and divided your Lordships' House on the subject on the Channel Tunnel Bill. Noble Lords who were there may remember that I received a dusty answer. That was perhaps understandable; it was difficult for me to debate the point at that time because I owned the portal of the tunnel and only three other people were involved. First, I had to declare a more than strong interest.
Fortunately or unfortunately, all four of us were not paupers so we elicited little sympathy. I felt then that the underlying principle was not noticed. However, it is there. It must be wrong for a planning authority or other body to purchase land compulsorily at the value of its existing use and then to sell it or lease it to another concern that is to make money from it. I believe that my noble friend the Leader of the House referred to service stations on a former occasion and said how difficult the position was in that case as exactly the same situation as I have described arose. Why should the owner of a piece of land, who may not be well heeled or a large landowner, not take some advantage from the person who is to run a service station?
I hope I have made my point clearly. That is the marker that I shall put down, or perhaps I shall add my name to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. The noble Lord is a trained surveyor and his amendment would probably be better worded than an amendment of mine. In other respects this is a good Bill. The planning legislation must need amendment now and again. Although this is a bulky document, I view it as a useful amendment to the existing legislation.
5 p.m.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, this is a welcome Bill. The House enjoyed a most helpful introduction from the Minister. The planning system in a mechanical sense is somewhat under strain. Despite the deregulation of planning, applications to local authorities increased by 12 per cent. in 1987–88 and by 14 per cent. in 1988–89. This increase may now be easing off, but such a number of applications delays decisions. As a result, only about 50 per cent. of local authority planning decisions are determined within the eight-week period. That is far short of the guidance offered by the Department of the Environment, which suggested that 80 per cent. of decisions should be made within that period.
There has also been a surge in appeals. They have increased by 30 per cent. a year, with consequent pressure on planning inspectors, even though 40 per cent. of those appeals are subsequently withdrawn. This position means that local authority time is spent fighting appeals when it could be better used in determining applications.
Further, the planning system itself comes somewhat into disrepute when local authorities have difficulty in making their local planning decisions "stick". I suggest that this position is due to the "fussiness" of planning law, to use Carnwath's phrase, and to the "fragmentation" of remedies. Carnwath suggests that too many decisions have fallen unreasonably at appeal on technicalities: for example, on the grounds that the local authority's decision to limit a market referred to summer time rather than the summer time as determined by the Summer Time Act 1972. There are grey areas where, for example, intensification of use becomes a material change.
Planning decisions do not "stick" either because of the fragmented remedies. Stop notices, for example, require an enforcement notice but, as the noble Lord, Lord Montagu, said, that process introduces unacceptable delays which may not matter when one is trying to control retailing on an industrial site but clearly matter when a local authority is trying to stop demolition. The status of injunctions so far has been unclear. The fragmented responsibility for enforcement, which is shared at the moment by local authorities, the planning inspectorate and the civil and criminal courts, does not help the position. Further, some developers treat the puny fines that may be imposed as levies rather than as a deterrent. Essentially ordinary people do not see why they should be law-abiding citizens when others are not and get away with it.
However, another reason why planning decisions have not always "stuck" is because they have been overturned by the Secretary of State on appeal. This happens largely because of the inadequacy of local plans. As the Minister herself said, these only cover some 30 per cent. of the population. That fault is reinforced by uncertain procedures and by the predilections of an individual Secretary of State: whether he is concerned with the green belt or out-of-town shopping.
938
This Bill is especially welcome because it addresses all three of the issues I have referred to—namely, the strain that the planning system is under; the inability to make planning decisions "stick" because of the fussiness of the law; and, finally, the role of the Secretary of State. The Bill inhibits repetitive planning applications, and should reduce the number of appeals. It strengthens enforcement procedures broadly along the lines of the Carnwath clauses by introducing planning contravention notices, breach of condition notices, injunctions, fines and the like. One should not exaggerate the problem. Carnwath suggests that of the average 500 alleged contraventions that a local authority will deal with, only 25 are likely not to be negotiated by reason and persuasion. Nonetheless we need the enforcement procedures as a back-up. The Bill is also welcome because it makes mandatory local plans, presumes in their favour and thus reduces to an appropriate and modest role the interventionist role of the Secretary of State. Therefore the Bill makes planning less whimsical and more predictable without losing much needed flexibility. Both local authorities and developers will know where they should stand.
I should also like to add that I agree with the comments made by almost every other speaker today that the proposals on compensation payments are universally welcomed.
However, I was intrigued by the Minister's reference to vendors participating in development gain. I hope she will indicate whether she hopes to reintroduce a development land tax. I am sure also that the House would support the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Montagu, as chairman of English Heritage, with which, as a commissioner, I associate myself. I hope they will be taken up in Committee.
It is a welcome and much needed Bill. However, I wish to make suggestions on a couple of points and register unease on one or two others. My comments are intended to be helpful. I do not wish to sound churlish as there is so much to support in the Bill. Clauses 1 to 11 are the so-called Carnwath clauses. As regards Clause 1, will the Minister consider whether magistrates should have the power to require compliance with planning contravention notices? Clause 5 concerns enforcement notices. Detailed work may be required on its wording, for example on the naming of owners.
Clause 9 concerns stop notices. We may need some help in clarifying the continued vulnerability of local authorities to compensation procedures. Clause 10 concerns certificates of lawful use, and I believe it will have almost universal support. However, it entails extensive work for local authorities. Carnwath proposed fees. The principle has already been accepted for development applications. I hope that the Minister will address that point.
More profound difficulties arise when we leave Carnwath and move on to the clauses after Clause 11. Clause 12 gives most cause for concern. It deals with planning gain. At present the former Section 52, or the new Section 106, make planning gain a matter of

939
mutual negotiation between a local authority and a developer. The Minister said in her opening remarks that the Government seek to foster co-operation in this matter. I am sure she is entirely right in that, but there is no evidence that the former Section 52 is not working or is not successful.
Clause 12 appears to run alongside the former Section 52 a new power for developers to make a unilateral offer of planning gain on a take it or leave it basis. I am sure that good developers will not go down that track because they recognise that local authorities have a wider perspective on land use, for example, than they themselves can hope to have. Most developers also value the process of negotiation which lies at the heart of local authority work. I suggest, however, that this clause will encourage less enlightened developers in their recalcitrance and undermine the process of negotiation. It repositions the emphasis towards the developer in a way that is against the public interest. I hope the Minister can be persuaded to think again on that issue.
On Clause 16, which concerns mineral workings, I hope we can be given some evidence that the measure is necessary. However, I understand the philosophy behind it. Clause 22 concerns structure plans. Despite the Government's White Paper on the future of development plans, the clause reaffirms and almost reinvents the county planning function. Given the question marks that are currently in the air over local government structure, I wonder whether such heavy reliance is wise.
As every speaker has said, it is obviously sensible to have mandatory district local plans and for those to be in conformity with county structure plans without obligatory scrutiny by the Secretary of State. The streamlining of the procedure in the Bill is welcome, as is the discouragement of structure plans becoming too dense and detailed.
If structure plans are not to be scrutinised by the Secretary of State, it is essential that they are in the domain of public debate. I should be delighted to be corrected on this point by the Minister, but as it stands the examination in public of county plans appears to be a matter of county discretion. The Bill refers throughout to "may" rather than "shall". It is not a matter of public right: and surely it should be. If my reading of the Bill is correct, I hope that the Minister will bring forward amendments at the Committee stage.
Regarding simplified planning zones, my noble friend Lord McIntosh referred to the "black hole" of UDCs. Given the research of the Centre for Local Economic Strategies which shows how vulnerable UDCs are to land and to development recession, I suggest that it is essential to integrate them properly into the planning process.
If one accepts, as many noble Lords have suggested, that planning resolves conflicts and protects landscapes and streetscapes, and if it steers development and improves its quality in a way that enhances the environment, I suggest that the Bill has
940
missed some opportunities. The first is a point of natural justice. As it stands, the Bill does not permit any third party appeals. My noble friend Lord McIntosh referred to other statutory bodies, as did the noble Lord, Lord Montagu. The House may also wish to consider the standing of private individuals and companies in cases when, for example, a neighbour is seriously affected by an adjacent development, whether it be a private householder or a major business. At present recourse is only available through the courts.
Secondly, while what is proposed in relation to planning controls is very welcome I believe that the range should be widened. It would be extremely helpful if we could inhibit the demolition of individual significant buildings which, though not listed and outside a conservation area, are important to streetscape. There is growing concern among local authorities up and down the land that within conservation areas all the buildings, including unlisted buildings, are protected from demolition. Victorian terraced housing, particularly which has significant streetscape value, should be protected from disfiguring alterations. If we as trustees wish to hand on our built heritage, we need additional powers to protect where appropriate, unlisted buildings in conservation areas from alterations and unlisted buildings outside conservation areas from demolition.
It may be opportune to mention that satellite dishes should also be brought within the planning regime until technology makes them transparent or recession makes them redundant.
Thirdly, the Bill does not address the issue of twin-tracking—where an applicant simultaneously submits an application and an appeal on the presumption that the application will be rejected. As the planning inspectors have themselves noted, the same local authority officers try to resolve the application while simultaneously trying to fight the appeal. That puts huge pressure on staff and injects major delay into the determination of applications by other applicants.
Fourthly, the Bill places additional responsibilities on local government. The certificates of lawful use or statutory local plans have resource implications for local authorities, as have the measures debated in previous Sessions of your Lordships' House relating to food, litter and dogs. There is no evidence that those additional duties have been foreseen in the recent local authority financial settlement, which is less than inflation. It is not fair to impose new duties, some of which represent a direct saving to the Secretary of State—some £200,000 will be saved as a result of not having to consider structure plans—without either reimbursing local authorities through RSG or allowing local government to charge appropriate fees. We all want developers to have speedy, sensitive and fair handling of their applications, to which they are entitled. However, that costs money and it is not reasonable that that cost should be borne by the poll tax payer.
Finally, I turn to issues raised very effectively by my noble friend Lady Nicol and the noble Lord, Lord

941
Norrie, concerning the missed opportunity regarding the wider concept of planning. The Bill reaffirms the belief in planning. It clarifies the processes and calibrates the procedures. That is all highly welcome, but it is still a concept of planning shaped by the attitudes of the 1970s. The material considerations that a local authority can bring to bear upon a planning application that are deemed relevant are too narrowly drawn. Much of the vocabulary of "Common Inheritance" is missing from the Bill. For example, it does not allow local authorities to take proper account of energy considerations, whether in terms of location or of design. There is insufficient consideration of wider transportation issues, or, as my noble friend Lord McIntosh said, of the implications for the local economy. Nor does it permit local authorities in rural areas to have particular regard to low cost, affordable or social housing.
We need a stronger commitment to access for the disabled. Above all, as my noble friend Lady Nicol and the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, said, we need a proper environmental assessment built into the Bill. It is not fully green. It does not allow local authorities to consider the no-growth option. It does not properly protect landscape from visually disturbing changes; for example, from pasture to arable or afforestation. In passing, I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Wade, whether, if agricultural buildings were treated as though they were industrial buildings he would welcome the application of UBR to them.
In conclusion, all Members of the House must surely welcome a Bill of this kind. It has been supported by all the professional associations and by local government. In our view it has one bad clause, Clause 12, other clauses which need strengthening and some significant omissions. However, we give it a warm welcome and hope very much that the Minister will allow us to help her improve the Bill even further.
5.1.7 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, perhaps I may begin by welcoming the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, to the Dispatch Box. I believe that it is the first occasion on which she has spoken from the Dispatch Box and I should like to say from this side of the House what an impressive performance it was. We look forward to meeting her across the Dispatch Box on other occasions. I lost count when she reached her fifteenth question. Therefore, perhaps the noble Baroness will forgive me if I do not pick up all of the points in replying to the debate. I shall make sure that answers are given to most of the questions that have been posed during the debate.
This has been a stimulating debate. It has demonstrated yet again the wealth of experience which your Lordships possess on planning matters. I thank all noble Lords for the general welcome which they have given the Bill. I shall address some of the anxieties that have been raised during the course of the debate.
Let me first reiterate what the Bill is about. It is about making the existing planning process more
942
certain, more efficient and fairer. As has been said by many noble Lords, that need has been generally recognised.
When the Bill was published the Council for the Protection of Rural England leapt in with comments to the effect that it was not green enough and more was needed to protect those parts of our environment which are perceived to be at risk. This is a green measure in every respect.
The enforcement provisions will help to deter unauthorised development. That is essential for the protection of environmentally precious areas. Against a background of full coverage by structure and local plans, the provisions on development control will create greater certainty about what development is acceptable after local consultation and debate. The compensation provisions will ensure that where, after proper consideration, people's property has to be acquired for development those people are sufficiently compensated. In other words, the Bill strengthens the framework in which the environmental concerns of organisations like the CPRE can be considered against the competing claims of developers and others. That can only help the proper consideration of environmental issues arising in the context of development needs and proposals.
The noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, and my noble friend Lord Wade illustrated beautifully the tensions which exist between environmental considerations and considerations of economic development. When my noble friend referred to plans being set in aspic I rather think that he meant set in concrete. My noble friend referred to their lack of flexibility and the need for them to be updated constantly because they should be dynamic documents for an air of realism in their development.
The environment has been a major anxiety. It is argued that there is no case for including provisions on environmental assessment in the Bill. Existing regulations made under the European Communities Act 1972 fully implement the directive and require environmental assessments for projects likely to have significant effects on the environment. We consider that the procedures are generally working satisfactorily. We are also in touch with the House authorities about a new standing order which would require environmental assessments for projects in Private Bills, as proposed by the Joint Select Committee on Private Bill Procedure. That was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ross.
The planning system is an instrument for resolving issues and conflicts between development and conservation. How they are resolved depends not upon the law but on the policies applied within it by both central and local government. For example, my department is currently consulting on policy guidance relating to countryside issues. The environmental White Paper also foreshadowed new planning guidance on heritage, wildlife and pollution issues.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, referred to regional guidance. I do not share his anxiety that the county council should be required to prepare regional

943
guidance. It is important that the guidance is seen as an explicit statement of government policy for the region rather than simply an endorsement of material produced by others. The advice prepared by local planning authorities is a crucially important input; but I think it right that the final guidance should come from the Government. We have been giving careful thought to the consultation process leading to the preparation of regional planning guidance. In the South East we propose to hold a conference early next year which will give us the opportunity to hear the views of invited parties before the regional guidance is drafted.
On strategic planning in the national parks—a point raised by my noble friend Lord Norrie—we felt it right that structure plan responsibility should remain with the county councils, but we intend to require those councils to consult the national park authorities in the process of formulating and reviewing their plans. That consultative approach is likely to be more appropriate than elaborate arrangements for joint working. Where there is disagreement on strategic issues, it will be open to the National Parks Authority to seek to have them raised at the public examination of the structure plan. The Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to direct that specified matters shall be considered at the examination in public.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, suggested that plans should be given greater weight. It is true that the first material consideration in relation to any planning application (though not the only one) is the development plan. As recent policy guidance has emphasised, the Secretary of State will be guided by up-to-date development plans in his decisions on appeal. But even where a refusal would be in line with the development plan, the authority cannot rely on that fact as a knock-down argument. It is required to take account of all the material planning considerations, and plans cannot be expected to anticipate positively every need or opportunity for economic development that might arise. We need to guard against over-rigidity. One of the strengths of our planning system is that it permits greater flexibility in the individual case than do systems which operate on more rigid zoning principles. For that reason, I am not attracted by the noble Lord's suggestion that the right of appeal should be curtailed where proposals are not in accordance with the plan.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, was also anxious about UDCs and their relationship with development plans. There was much criticism of the proposal in the 1989 White Paper that UDCs, which are essentially temporary creations, should be excluded from the development plan framework. In the light of that, we now propose that UDCs should normally be included in plans after appropriate consultation between the planning authority and the corporation. We have dropped the black hole proposition, as the noble Lord and the noble Baroness put it. The power to exclude UDCs from plans is essentially a reserve power to deal
944
with special cases whereby a planning authority is seeking to thwart a UDC. We hope that power will rarely be used.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, also spoke about planning and agriculture. We have recently published for consultation proposals for extending prior notification arrangements for farm buildings and increasing the minimum size of holding which qualifies for permitted development rights. We have invited views on the possibility of extending these controls to new farm and forestry roads. If we decide to go ahead with these arrangements, they will be the first major extension of planning controls to agriculture and forestry for over 40 years.
However, the Government are not convinced that new controls for agriculture and forestry operations are needed. That was a point made by my noble friend Lord Radnor. The planning system has to recognise the special operational needs of farming and forestry businesses. All proposals for large-scale afforestation in sensitive areas have been subject to environmental assessment since 1988 under the arrangements introduced by the Forestry Commission to comply with the European directive.
The noble Lord also referred to the re-use of agricultural buildings. When the use is for nonagricultural purposes—for instance, for higher industry—planning permission is already required and the planning authority has an opportunity to consider the appropriateness of the new use.
On compensation, the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and many other noble Lords, were keen that the principle of compensation could be extended. The principle of a payment on top of market value compensation should apply in all cases, not just those affecting householders. This is not an argument which commends itself to the Government. The concept of the home loss payment is intended to reflect, as I have already said, the particular problems faced by those who are displaced from their own homes.
The law also provides for farm loss and other payments to assist particular cases, and indeed the Bill improves some of these provisions. But we see no justification for a general supplement over and above market value. For this purpose, market value includes hope value. However, it does not include the value of the scheme for which the land is being taken. We consider this to be right whether or not the scheme generates income for the acquiring body. My noble friend's suggestion could result in huge variations in the amount of compensation paid for different sites of similar size, type and location and would thus appear wholly arbitrary from the point of view of owners. In the Government's view the approach already enshrined in the current legislation is inherently a fair one, and we see no case for abandoning it.
My noble friend mentioned a proposal for additional compensation when a developing body obtains a more valuable planning permission after acquiring the land. The amendment that I have foreshadowed will, I believe, achieve this objective.

945
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, and other noble Lords, referred to the French land compensation system. There is a myth in this country that the French pay a vast percentage over market value for all land. The French system is different but not necessarily better. The percentages are usually lower than those quoted. They may in some cases pay as much as 25 per cent.—but on the first 100,000 French francs, which is £10,000. Otherwise, the percentage which varies from case to case is much more like 10 per cent. They do not reimburse many of the costs which are specifically covered by our provisions—for example, lawyers' and surveyors' fees—and they do not pay home loss or farm loss payments. It is by no means clear that the claimants do better in France. While help is given with remedial measures, like double-glazing, no compensation is paid for depreciation as a result of nearby developments, as we do in this country.
The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, argued that planning restrictions should give rise to compensation rights. The law already provides such protection, and therefore we do not believe there is a need to make such provision in this Bill. Compensation is payable if planning permission is revoked or a use is discontinued by order. That also applies, for example, when permission is refused following an article for direction. The Bill repeals some out-dated compensation provisions in this area, and with these changes we consider that the balance between authorities and developers is about right.
The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, also referred to the resourcing of local planning authorities' development plan activities. There will be extra demands on authorities as they extend local plan coverage to the whole of their areas, but there is a lot of enthusiasm for this task. I should like to make two practical points. Where up-to-date plans are in existence, it will be open to authorities to build on them and to incorporate them into their new plans rather than having to start from scratch. Secondly, there will be a pay-off for authorities once plans are in place in terms of a much firmer framework for handling planning applications and appeals. That was a point well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis.
My noble friend Lord Montagu raised a number of matters relating to heritage. On the general point, I am happy to discuss amendments in Committee. However, apart from some technical changes to listed building enforcement procedures consequent to the main provisions on planning enforcement, the Bill is not concerned with matters relating to listed buildings, conservation areas or the powers of English Heritage.
With regard to power for English Heritage to grant-aid persons, bodies or trusts for purposes of acquiring listed buildings in need of restoration, we are broadly sympathetic. But that may not be within the scope of the Bill or of the planning Acts.
His second point related to listed building enforcement notices taking immediate effect, not 28 days after service. Again breach of listed building control is a criminal offence. The noble Lord's proposal would not affect that. His third point referred to powers for English Heritage to require
946
information on ownership of buildings on which it wishes to take enforcement action. The question of how far it is appropriate for English Heritage to have concurrent powers with local planning authorities needs further discussion and thought.
The noble Lord's fourth point related to the power for English Heritage to bring prosecutions or to seek injunctions in its own name. We are sympathetic and hope that, following consultation, it may be possible to give effect to the proposal, if not in the present Bill at least at some convenient future opportunity.
The noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, referred to the consistency between structure plans and local plans. The present procedure under which a local plan must be certified by the county before it can be placed on deposit is not a satisfactory arrangement. It can and does cause serious delay to the processing of some local plans. In its place Schedule 3 proposes a new procedure which will allow local plans to go forward on deposit when the district council chooses but will require them to be accompanied by a statement of conformity from the county council. This statement will say whether or not in the county's view the local plan conforms with the structure plan; and, if not, in what respects there is an inconsistency. That process gives the council ample opportunity to highlight inconsistencies without causing delay to the processing of the local plan.
The noble Baroness was also anxious about nature conservation policies in county structure plans. Again we issued guidance last May on the content of structure and local plans in Planning Policy Guidance Note 15. That refers specifically to conservation in town and country as one of the topics for structure plans. It urges authorities to ensure that full account is taken of the environmental effects of their policies. My department will be commissioning research on best practice in the preparation of structure plans. That should enable us to issue guidance later next year on the best way of approaching particular issues in plans; and environmental issues will be one aspect.
The noble Lord, Lord Ross, spoke about stopping applications from being made during the two-year moratorium. We cannot completely stop an applicant from applying. What would be the sanction on presenting the application? However, the Bill provides a simple procedure to throw out repetitive applications without the painstaking and costly care that needs to be given to the first application.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, tacked about the criminalising of unlawful development. "Criminalisation" is a word that neither he nor I like. I realise that a strong tide is flowing, especially among some elected members of planning authorities, in favour of legislating to make unlawful development a criminal offence. It is not a simple issue where all the arguments lead in only one direction. One of the merits of Mr. Robert Carnwath's report on Enforcing Planning Control is that he analysed the issue very thoroughly in Chapter 6, paragraphs 2.1 to 2.17 before concluding that he could not recommend that change. We find his analysis compelling and his conclusion entirely persuasive.

947
Those who support criminalisation do so mainly because they wish to punish people who deliberately and flagrantly carry out development which they know is unlawful without obtaining planning permission required for it. I can sympathise with that aim. However, it is important to note that the flagrant contravenors are a small minority. While it is true that their activities catch the public eye and make members of planning committees despair, the result of criminalisation would be to bring many others—often very innocent people—within the scope of criminal behaviour. That would include, for example, the houseowner who goes ahead with improvements to his house, perhaps on advice that he does not require specific planning permission, only to find that he has exceeded the permitted development rights. If unlawful development becomes an offence, the innocent person who had prima facie carried out technically unlawful development, would be open to prosecution.
Secondly, we must ask whether criminalisation would in practice be an effective deterrent. Unless the maximum penalty were so substantial, it is doubtful whether the flagrant contravenor would be deterred. That would give us the worst of all worlds. That was a point again well made by the noble Baroness.
That is one reason why we have preferred the alternative approach exemplified in Clause 3 of the Bill of a planning injunction to restrain the most serious breaches of control. If an injunction were granted, the eventual penalty for contempt of court is likely to be far more effective than any other remedy.
I know that I have not touched on a number of other points. My noble friend Lord Radnor, made a point about the NRA and planning concerning water. The NRA is consulted by planning authorities where an application affects them. However, I believe that he was referring to planning concerning water. That is a matter for the NRA. Therefore I have no doubt that it will be taking a very close interest in the Bill.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. However, before she moves to her peroration—I appreciate that she has been very fair in dealing with as many points as she can—a number of noble Lords, including myself, raised the issue of unilateral undertakings as opposed to Section 52 agreements. It would be helpful if she could give the Government's response to those matters.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I know that unilateral arrangements cause concern. I suspect that at the end of the Bill's progress through the House we shall find ourselves agreeing to differ about the issue. There are many examples where local authorities continue to negotiate. The noble Baroness pressed me on the point of negotiating for planning gain where negotiations are prolonged to the extent that local authorities hang out for greater benefits under Section 52 or Section 106 as it now is. Those prolong and delay a project to the point where a developer can make the decision to act unilaterally. At the end of the day that is also subject to judicial review. If the developer has acted precipitately, if he has acted unreasonably, there
948
would be a mechanism to ensure that a judgment was made about the reasonableness or unreasonableness of that action.
I hope that the noble Lord will allow me to rest on that explanation. On looking at his face, I believe that he is not entirely satisfied with it. However, I know that we shall be coming back to the matter in much greater detail at Committee stage.
Perhaps I shall be forgiven for passing over many other points that have been raised during the debate. It is a varied Bill, as the range of points with which I have dealt testifies. It is an important Bill in matters of detail on many issues, and especially on compensation. There has been no updating of the law for many years. The twin themes of efficiency and fairness which I have emphasised throughout the debate require that detailed attention be given to legislation from time to time. That does not detract from the importance of the themes. I believe that the Bill will improve both fairness and efficiency, and I commend it to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Statistics of Trade Act 1947 (Amendment of Schedule) Order 1990
5.39 p.m.
The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne rose to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the order be made in the form of the draft laid before the House on 7th November [1st Report from the Joint Committee].—(The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne.)
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the purpose of this draft order is to allow the Central Statistical Office to collect quarterly data on companies' profits under statute. This is one component of a package of measures being taken by the Government that will help to improve the quality of economic statistics.
First, I should like briefly to explain the technical aspects of the order. The Statistics of Trade Act is the main authority by which the Government collect statistics from companies. It allows competent authorities—that is, certain government departments including the Central Statistical Office—to require companies to supply information on specific aspects of their business. The Act contains a schedule listing the topics on which the Government can request information. Section 5 of the Act allows additions to be made to this schedule by Order in Council. Such an Order in Council is before your Lordships this evening. The order would add a paragraph to the schedule to the Statistics of Trade Act. This paragraph appears in the schedule to the draft order. The paragraph contains the words "profits" and "losses", which are not covered by the existing schedule. It also contains other phrases. I shall explain shortly why this is necessary.
Before doing so, however, perhaps I may put into context our proposal to make this change. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that the Government

949
need good economic statistics both for monitoring and forecasting the UK economy and as the basis for fiscal and economic policy. That almost goes without saying. Your Lordships will be aware, however, that there have been severe problems with the quality of our economic statistics. These have given rise to real difficulties for economic policy makers and indeed for all users of the statistics both inside and outside government. That is why we are here this evening.
I now turn to the specific topic of statistics on company profits. The Government need quarterly data on profits for four reasons. First, they make an important contribution to the income measure of gross domestic product; secondly, they provide the base from which corporation tax receipts are forecast; thirdly, they help provide the Government with an assessment of the financial position of companies; and fourthly, they are used by Treasury in analysing, modelling and forecasting the economy. Therefore, I hope that your Lordships will agree that it is important to have these figures as securely based as possible. As I have mentioned, the schedule to the Statistics of Trade Act does not currently cover profits and so the Government cannot collect data on company profits under the Act. Of course the Government nevertheless compile statistics on company profits. However, there are significant weaknesses.
The basic source of statistics on the profits of industrial and commercial companies is Inland Revenue data on assessments for corporation tax. These statistics are thought to be soundly based. Inevitably, however, these data are not available until some time after the profits are earned and they also relate to whole years, not to quarters. Quarterly data are needed for monitoring, forecasting and policy purposes. The tax assessments data are, therefore, supplemented by a quarterly inquiry asking a sample of companies for information on their profits. Results from this inquiry are used to provide figures for the national accounts for the past two or three years. The inquiry is voluntary and many large companies exercise their right not to provide data. Despite several efforts that have been made to recruit more companies to the inquiry, it remains unrepresentative and lacks a number of large company groups. The estimates derived from the current quarterly inquiry are, therefore, weak. It is no real surprise that there tend to be large revisions to the statistics when the tax assessments data become available two or three years later.
Adding the phrases "profits" and "losses" to the schedule, as proposed, will permit CSO to collect up-to-date quarterly information from industrial and commercial companies about their profits on a statutory basis. It will be able to collect these statistics from all large company groups in the country not just those who agree to report voluntarily. The resulting figures would be more accurate because the inquiry would be larger and more representative. Statutory inquiries are also more equitable than voluntary ones. Companies which respond to voluntary inquiries do
950
so from a sense of public responsibility. The costs that they incur may be small but they are still costs that will not be incurred by their non-responding competitors.
I am sure that your Lordships are concerned about the possible increase in reporting burdens. As part of its preparation for this measure the Government consulted the CBI and the Stock Exchange about the possibility of introducing a quarterly statutory inquiry into profits. While neither body could be expected to welcome additional reporting burdens both accept the need for accurate statistics. The CBI is of the opinion that the reporting burden will not be too great as most of the required information can easily be provided from existing sources within most companies. The Government also discussed the availability of quarterly profits figures with some large companies last winter. The impression gained from these discussions is in line with the CBI opinion. In this instance, therefore, the Government believe that the prospective improvement to the statistics is worth the slight increase in the reporting burdens involved.
This covers the words "profits" and "losses" in the proposed additional paragraph. As I mentioned earlier, the paragraph also covers income received, dividends and interest paid and taxes paid. This is because of a particular problem in compiling statistics of the profits of financial companies. Such companies would naturally see their profits as including turns on interest rates or on the prices of traded instruments. For the national accounts, however, such earnings are not included as profits. There would, therefore, be no point in attempting to collect statistics from financial companies on such a basis. The only wary to obtain the appropriate statistics is to collect data from financial companies on particular items of their income and expenditure, and for CSO to compile the required profits figures itself. This is the approach adopted in existing inquiries of financial companies. However, most of the inquiries collect only annual figures. Figures for the latest quarters are projections and substantial revisions can occur when the figures for the latest year become available. The further additions to the schedule will enable CSO to collect income and expenditure data from financial companies on a quarterly basis. As with industrial and commercial companies the Government are satisfied that the required information is readily available for most companies. Finally, the phrase in the proposed paragraph dealing with services is included to remove any possible doubt that such information falls within the scope of the Act.
The proposed amendment to the schedule will enable CSO to compile better statistics on company profits without an undue increase in reporting burdens. As part of the package of improvements announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, this will help in eliminating the three major problems with economic statistics. It will help to reduce the gaps between the measure of GDP; it will reduce the scope for revisions; and it will lead to more coherent statistics and reduce the balancing items. This will be an important

951
contribution to improving the statistical base used for economic monitoring, forecasting and policy making. I commend the Motion to the House.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the order be made in the form of the draft laid before the House on 7th November. [1st Report from the Joint Committee].—(The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne.)
5.48 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Earl for introducing the order. Generally speaking, it has our support. We believe it is right that the collection of such statistics should be on a statutory basis and not on a voluntary basis. To that extent we support the Government's action.
We also note and support the comments made by the noble Earl about the criticisms that have been made of the quality of government statistics. Indeed, we have joined in some of the criticisms. We have also criticised the Government for the way in which they use the statistics, but that is a different and more political question. The Pickford Committee recently reported on statistics, and on national income statistics in particular, and the order before the House follows its recommendation.
I have one or two questions that I should like to ask the noble Earl, given our general support. Forecasting has recently come under much criticism. After all, the Treasury does not have a very good record on forecasting either the balance of payments or inflation. Anything which will improve that ability to forecast will be welcome both to your Lordships, and, indeed, to the country as a whole.
In those circumstances, why have the Government drastically cut the grant in connection with the consortium consisting of the Economic and Social Research Council, the Bank of England and the Treasury for funding of econometric models outside the Treasury from £1.5 million to £0.5 million next year? I should be grateful if the noble Earl can explain how that is consonant with the view that he has just expressed that economic forecasting should be improved.
Secondly, were the Financial Reporting Council and the accounting standards board consulted about the contents of the order, particularly as regards the definition of "profits"? Profits are extremely difficult to define and the accounting standards board now has the legal obligation to lay out the accounting standards and principles which companies should adopt. Was that body consulted by the Government on the expression "income receivable by the undertaking"? Was that expression satisfactory to the accounting standards board? Are we to assume that all accounts which are reported under this order must be made up according to the principles of the ASB or are small companies in some way exempt?
Thirdly, how often do the Government propose to publish profit and income statistics which are to be collected under this order? Are they to be published
952
quarterly, annually or are they to be published only when the national income statistics are published, and then subsequently revised?
Fourthly, is it not much more important for the purpose of national accounts and, indeed, for the purposes of this order to specify the form and content of company accounts? After all, the Government have that power under Section 228 of the Companies Act 1985. It seems to me to be sensible, if statistics of this nature are to be collected, that they should be uniform and that uniformity should be imposed by the Government under powers which they already have.
I have not given notice to the noble Earl of my last question, but it is of fundamental importance. How do the definitions contained in this order square with international definitions? It seems to me immensely important that when compiling our national income statistics we should align ourselves at least alongside our fellow members of the EC and also alongside members of OECD. I should be grateful for an assurance from the noble Earl that we are following practices generally adopted in OECD.
We have a long way to go in improving our economic statistics. I am very glad to see that my noble friend Lord Wilson is here. As a Fellow of the Royal Statistical Society, he has a particular interest in this matter. I hope that he and other noble friends will ask the Government to apply their mind seriously to the question of the quality of statistics which come from the Government. Over the years we have seen a fall off in quality and standards. We welcome this order as far as it goes but there is still quite a long way to go. We hope that the Government will take the matter very seriously indeed.
5.56 p.m.
The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne: My Lords, following this debate I hope that the House will agree with the Government's view that the statistics of company profits need improving and that the way to achieve that is through a quarterly statutory inquiry. The Government believe that the best way to enable that is to approve this draft order before the House. It will amend the Statistics of Trade Act so that it covers profits.
The noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, asked a number of questions which I shall attempt to answer. He asked why the Government have drastically cut the consortium funding for econometric models. The answer to that is threefold. Treasury contributions for the next round of consortium funding will continue at 20 per cent. of the total as for the current round. Secondly, it is true that there will be a substantial cut back in the total funding for the next round compared to the current round, but pressure for that did not come from the Treasury. Throughout negotiations with the ESRC, the Treasury has said that it will contribute 20 per cent. of the total and was prepared to support a much higher level of total funding. Thirdly, the increase in Treasury contributions in percentage terms cannot be justified.
The second point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, was whether the ASB and the FRC were

953
consulted on the order. The answer is that they were not. Officials felt that it was sufficient to consult the CBI, the organisation representing those completing the returns. The Stock Exchange was also consulted. The CSO needs to compile figures according to international accounts conventions which are internationally agreed. The definitions used within commercial accounting in general provide the building blocks which the CSO need. That means that most companies will be able to provide the information from existing sources. Accountants and accounting standards boards have not been able to agree on many aspects of accounting.
The third question which the noble Lord asked was how frequently profit and income statistics collected under the order would be published. That will be done quarterly.
The noble Lord, Lord Williams, asked about the form and context of company accounts. It would be nice to have a single set of company accounts rather than separate accounts for corporate reporting, tax returns and statistics. That is simply not practical; for example, company accounts include the overseas activities of United Kingdom groups whereas those activities must be excluded from the national accounts figures for profits. I fear that the requirements of shareholders and national accountants will never be identical.
The noble Lord also raised the question about the burden on small businesses. I also raised that question when I was being briefed on this order. We plan that the new inquiry will be directed only at the largest company groups.
Finally, the noble Lord asked about Eurostat and whether that would have access to the data for individual companies. It will not. The recent regulation on the transmission of confidential data to Eurostat is a preliminary enabling measure only. A further regulation will be necessary to specify any information which may be transmitted. In any event, company names and addresses will not be supplied and Eurostat must maintain the same degree of data security as in the United Kingdom.
I repeat my assurances that as far as we can tell, this order will not impose a substantial reporting burden on companies. We shall be as accommodating as possible to companies which have difficulty in supplying the data as long as the accuracy of the aggregate figures is not reduced. I hope that the House agrees that the draft order before the House is not a controversial matter.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and it was ordered that the Address be presented by the Lords with White Staves.

Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982 (Amendment) Order 1990
6 p.m.
The Lord Advocate (Lord Fraser of Carmyllie)The Lord Advocate (Lord Fraser of Carmyllie) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 7th November be approved. [1st Report from the Joint Committee.]
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this Order in Council is to enable the United Kingdom to ratify the convention by which Spain and Portugal acceded to the 1968 Brussels Convention on jurisdiction and the enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters, as well as to the 1971 protocol.
The Brussels Convention was drawn up between the six original member states of the European Community under Article 220 of the treaty. That article provides that member states shall enter into negotiations with each other with a view to securing for the benefit of their nationals, inter alia, the simplification of formalities governing the reciprocal recognition and enforcement of judgments of courts or tribunals. The convention established a scheme to determine the international jurisdiction of the courts of the member states; to facilitate recognition, and to introduce an expeditious procedure for securing the enforcement of judgments within the Community. The 1971 Protocol confers jurisdiction on the Court of Justice of the Community to interpret the convention.
On becoming a member of the Community each state undertakes to accede to the Brussels Convention and to the protocol: this is acknowledged in Article 63 of the convention and in Article 9 of the protocol respectively. The United Kingdom, Denmark and Ireland acceded by a convention signed on the 9th October 1978, and the Brussels Convention is now in force in each of those states. It has been in force in the United Kingdom since 1st January 1987 by virtue of the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982. In turn, on joining the Community, Greece acceded by a convention signed on 25th October 1982; that convention was ratified by the United Kingdom last year and came into force on 1st October 1989.
The convention on the accession of Spain and Portugal, the two final states, was signed on 26th May 1989. In a joint declaration made at the same time, the member states declared themselves ready to take every appropriate measure with a view to ensuring that national procedures for the ratification of the convention are completed, at the latest, by 31st December 1992. So far only the Netherlands has done so.
Section 14 of the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act provides that Her Majesty may by Order in Council make such modifications of the Act as Her Majesty considers appropriate in consequence of any revision of the Brussels Convention or to the protocol. Such revisions include,
"in particular any revision connected with the accession to the 1968 Convention of one or more further States".
The length, in terms of printed pages, of the order before your Lordships today is perhaps disproportionate to the amount of new material it contains. The greater part of the printed order consists of schedules, replacing those presently in the 1982 Act. The amended text of the 1968 convention, and of the protocol, is reproduced in its entirety in Schedules 1 and 2. This practice has been welcomed in the past. The remaining schedules contain the amended text, so far as is relevant, of the 1978 accession convention, the convention by which the United Kingdom acceded; and the relevant provisions of the Spanish and Portuguese accession convention.
I would draw attention to Article 8 of the order which amends Section 3 of the Act to permit consideration by United Kingdom courts, in ascertaining the meaning or effect of any provision of the Brussels convention or the accession conventions, to consider the report on the Spanish and Portuguese accession convention drawn up by three eminent lawyers: a Portuguese, a Spaniard and the honorary director of administration at the Belgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Monsieur Paul Jenard. Section 3 already permits reference to the corresponding reports on the Brussels convention and on the earlier accession conventions. The amendments to Sections 39 and 52, in Articles 10 and 11 respectively, will enable either corresponding provisions to be applied, or the 1968 convention itself to be extended, not only to Gibraltar and the sovereign base areas but to "any colony".
As your Lordships will be aware, the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Bill was introduced before your Lordships' House on the 15th November. The object of that Bill is to enable the United Kingdom to ratify the Lugano convention on jurisdiction and the enforcement of judgments. That convention was drawn up between the member states of the European Community and the member states of the European Free Trade Association, and creates a regime between the states of those two organisations parallel to that of the Brussels convention. Although the provisions of the Lugano convention follow, so far as is appropriate, those of the Brussels convention, the opportunity was taken to incorporate some changes deemed to be necessary in the light of 20 years' experience of the practical operation of the Brussels regime.
Given the parallel nature of these two conventions it was considered desirable by the working party negotiating the Spanish and Portuguese accession convention to take that opportunity to reflect, if I might so call them, the "Lugano improvements", back into the 1968 Brussels convention. Most of those changes are of a minor nature, and I shall not detain your Lordships more than to highlight three of the more significant of them. They affect, in matters of detail, the rules on jurisdiction in Title II of the 1968 convention. The relevant articles in that convention are Articles 5, 6 and 16 relating respectively to contracts of employment; matters relating to a contract where the action may be combined with an
956
action relating to rights in rem, and proceedings having as their object tenancies of property for temporary private use.
Having by those means effected the alignment of the Brussels convention with the Lugano convention, it remains to be considered, as a separate exercise, whether we should now make corresponding adjustments to Parts II and III of the 1982 Act which deal with jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments within the United Kingdom, and jurisdiction in Scotland. Consideration of those matters will begin shortly.
For the present, however, I commend the order to your Lordships as a step towards the creation of a common market in judgments, not only within the Community, but also within western Europe as a whole.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 7th November be approved. [1st Report from the Joint Committee.]—(Lord Fraser of Carmyllie.)
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: My Lords, your Lordships' House is grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate for his explanation of the order. From this side of the House there is no objection in principle to what is regarded as being a useful piece of legislation governing many aspects of enforcement of rights between contracting states, as the noble and learned Lord outlined. The new Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Bill, soon to go through your Lordships' House, will incorporate most of the order in the schedules.
I ask the Government whether they would be prepared, from a practitioner's point of view, to issue guidelines as to where the appropriate law can be found. It is not an order which stands on its own. There has been a succession of orders, and practitioners advise me that it takes a long time to set the application to the court in motion. An example of that can be seen in Article 32, which deals with the application.
If one puts oneself in the position of a solicitor or counsel being asked what should be done about the application, one turns to Article 32 and finds that it reads as follows:
"The application shall be submitted—in Belgium, to the tribunal de première instance or rechtbank van eerste aanleg".
Who is that and where is that? Goodness knows! It continues,
"in Denmark, to the byret".
One could be trivial about that and ask if that is a small cowshed. The article continues,
"in the Federal Republic of Germany, to the presiding judge of a chamber of the Landgericht".
I am no linguist, as will no doubt become evident as I go through the clause. The article continues, "in Greece, to the", and then there follow two Greek words which I am totally incapable of translating. I cannot see how any solicitor or counsel could advise his client who to make the application to in Greece. Presumably one sends it by carrier pigeon, hopes it lands somewhere and is accepted.
The article further reads,

957

"—in Spain, to the Juzgado de Primera Instancia,

—in France, to the presiding judge of the tribunal de grande instance,

—in Ireland, to the High Court, [no specification]

—in Italy, to the carte d'appello,

—in Luxembourg, to the presiding judge of the tribunal d'arrondissement,

—in the Netherlands, to the presiding judge of the arrondissementsrechtbank,

—in Portugal, to the Tribunal Judicial de Circulo".

The solicitor can advise his client that those are all the places to which the application will be sent in due course, and no doubt disappear for all time. Those phrases are repeated, and I shall not bore your Lordships by repeating them again. I spoke to the noble and learned Lord regarding the matter and the Government have some sympathy with practitioners in that regard. It would be useful if at least the names and addresses of those places detailed in Articles 32, 37 and 40, and Schedule 2, Article 2 could be supplied to practitioners for use when advising clients to whom they should apply.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, perhaps I may respond briefly to the point raised by the noble Lord. I am grateful for the general welcome he gave to this useful order. In addition, the Government are most anxious that conventions such as this, once ratified, should achieve the best possible effect in practice, and he is right to highlight that. I am accordingly grateful
958
to the noble Lord for raising a point which is of fundamental importance in the operation of the convention.
It might be suggested to the editors of Supreme Court Practice—the white book, as it is known—that they should consider listing in their commentary to Order 11 the addresses of the courts referred to in the convention. That might be a good way of reaching the widest audience. Certainly that would be true of English practitioners, and it parallels the suggestion that could be made for such a publication in Scotland.
However, perhaps I may say to the noble Lord that, in a sense, that is only one side of the problem. It is also necessary that continental practitioners should know the whereabouts of the relevant courts in the United Kingdom. As this is a matter of interest to all the contracting parties, I suggest that the best way forward would be for the United Kingdom to seek to pursue a solution within the Community's working group on judicial co-operation.
With those brief remarks, I repeat my thanks to the noble Lord for his comments on the order.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

London Docklands Railway Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at eleven minutes past six o'clock.