Sitting of 20 December 1990

Preamble
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Leukaemia Patients (University Hospital of Wales)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn—[Mr. John M. Taylor.]
9.34 am
Mr. Gareth Wardell: I am delighted to have this opportunity to debate the subject of the treatment of leukaemia patients at the University hospital of Wales, Cardiff, which is the only bone marrow transplant facility in Wales. I am also pleased to provide the new Under-Secretary of State for Wales with his first opportunity of gripping the Dispatch Box while the House is in Session. I am sure that one of the reasons why he was promoted to that hallowed position was his tremendously useful contribution as a member of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, of which I am proud to be the Chairman.
Huge steps have been taken in a short time to improve the life chances of our fellow human beings who contract the terrible disease of leukaemia. Until about 10 years ago, the vast majority of people would die from that disease within a few months. Fortunately, recent advances, including bone marrow transplantation, mean that many patients with leukaemia can now look forward to a cure.
Paragraph 49 of the document on cancers launched yesterday by the Under-Secretary states:
"a rise in the use of bone marrow transplants will decrease death from haematological malignancies."
I was also pleased to read in a publication on cancers produced yesterday by the Welsh Health Planning Forum the acknowledgement, on page 7, that survival rates for many cancers five years after diagnosis are improving, especially for the leukaemias.
However, the medical staff working at the University hospital of Wales, Cardiff, face difficult problems in treating seriously ill patients under their care. I first became aware of the problems through the sad loss of a young man to a family in my constituency whom I knew well and then through discussions with the senior doctor looking after those patients at the University hospital of Wales.
When I checked through the public expenditure White Paper and through the Welsh Office commentary published in March this year to assess the level of Welsh Office funding, I was surprised to find that those sources gave no assistance in quantifying the funding by the Welsh Office of this regional service. On 24 October, in the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, I raised the issue with the Secretary of State, and I reiterate my request here. I ask that a meeting take place between the Secretary of State and the consultant in charge of the unit to discuss the changes necessary to improve patients' treatment.
The fundamental point to be addressed is the fact that there are only 18 beds in a treatment ward for the whole
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range of haematology services, The beds are not ragionally funded and are not all dedicated for occupation by patients requiring bone marrow transplantation. The ward includes patients with a wide variety of haematological conditions, including haemophilia. The patients on the wards are not only those who are suffering from leukaemia who are waiting for bone marrow transplantation.
The existing haematology unit should have a minimum of 25 beds, with a high proportion of beds being in single cubicles because of the dangerously high risk of cross-infection. That number is the minimum needed and would eliminate the shortage of beds, which has meant that patients have been discharged earlier than their medical condition warranted.
Because of the continuum of care from pre-treatment to transplants, only the transplant is regionally funded. The underfunding of the pre-transplant phase is markedly reducing the effectiveness of the unit. The removal of that segmentation of funding is vital in order to improve the standard of care.
Prior to bone marrow transplantation, leukaemia patients require intensive treatment. It makes no sense for that treatment to be funded differently from the treatment provided when bone marrow transplantation occurs. I want now to identify the problem areas that arise from that unsatisfactory system of funding.
First, the senior doctor is currently not permitted by the unit manager at University hospital of Wales to prescribe certain drugs which, in the doctor's clinical judgment, are necessary for the treatment of certain kinds of leukaemia. Because of cost, a crazy situation arises in which a patient cannot be prescribed the drug alpha interferon, for example—I emphasise that that is only one example—by the regional specialist at his unit in Wales, but the same patient can be perscribed that drug by a consultant haematologist outside the South Glamorgan district health authority area.
One patient, who in the consultant's view and in his clinical judgment, should have been treated with alpha interferon was denied that treatment from the budget of the University hospital of Wales. However, the leukaemia research appeal chaired by my constituent Mr. Bernard Lewis for Llangennith provided the money to pay for the drug. I have a copy of the invoice from the pharmacy department of the University hospital of Wales for two months' supply of interferon paid for by the appeal in August. Two months' supply of the drug costs well over £300. Will people in Wales and Britain soon see pleas on their television screens and in their newspapers for anyone to provide life-prolonging drugs denied them through the nation health service?
Consultants have been able to cushion the effects of drug cost limitations by persuading GPs to perscribe the drugs. Now GPs throughout the country are deciding on legal advice that they cannot continue that practice. Specifically, a general medical practitioner who prescribes a drug at a consultant's request, which the GP would not normally be able to monitor on the basis of his own expertise and practice facilities, places himself in a position where he could be liable for an action for negligence.
Furthermore, the GP could be regarded as being in breach of his terms of service and liable to disciplinary proceedings. That view is based on an interpretation of paragraph 36 of schedule 1 to the National Health Service (General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) Regulations 1974 which requires a GP to

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"order any drugs … which are needed for the treatment of any patient to whom he is providing treatment under these terms of service by issuing to that patient a prescription form, and such a form shall not be used in any other circumstances."
Therefore, a GP could be held not to be providing treatment in some cases, for that treatment is being provided by the hospital consultant with the GP acting merely as a facilitator to provide drugs.
Through correspondence with a GP in my constituency, I have been alerted to the same situation regarding the drug erythropoeitin which is used for the effective treatment for the anaemia of chronic renal failure. I use the example erythropoeitin to show that GP's awareness of the possibility of negligence claims is not simply confined to the treatment of leukaemia patients. That is why I am beginning to be haunted by the spectre of patients, including children, begging for prescribed drugs. I hope that the Minister will be able to comfort me with good Christmas cheer and guarantee that that spectre is completely unfounded and that the Government would never allow it to happen.
Specifically, I should like the Minister to accept that if a cancer treatment service is to be run satisfactorily, all the drugs that the clinician deems necessary for the treatment of his patients should be available to the unit including alpha interferon and similar substances such as aclarubicin and idarubicin. It is also important that the clinician is able to add to his armoury the new drug regimens that emerge and which will continue to improve cancer treatment. That is mentioned in paragraph 48 of the Welsh Health Planning Forum publication on cancers.
My second area of concern relates to the uncertainty about the availability of an anaesthetist for the bone marrow transplant programme. The department of anaesthetics at the University hospital of Wales has had to reduce its work load because of the non-filling of consultant and clinical assistant posts by the chief administrative medical officer for the South Glamorgan district health authority.
Bone marrow transplantation is not one of the specialties that are exempt from those cuts. In the rescheduling of anaesthetics lists there have been only two protected services—the provision of anaesthetic time at Rhydlafar for the treatment centre and anaesthetic services to provide cardiac surgery in accordance with achieving the target quota of operations.
In practice, therefore, even though bone marrow transplantation is a regional service which funds a weekly session for an anaesthetist, the policy of the University hospital of Wales of cancelling theatre sessions because of the non-availability of hospital anaesthetic staff has been extended to bone marrow transplantation.
I hope that the Minister will accept that the planning for a patient to receive a bone marrow transplant from a donor takes many weeks. In the last two weeks, cytotoxic drugs are administered to the patient and marrow is taken from the donor. If the transplant is cancelled at that stage, there is a potential danger to the patient. There is deep concern that, unless greater certainty can be introduced about the availability of anaesthetists, patient survival may be jeopardised.
The third and final problem area that I want to identify is nursing. There is a major problem with the inadequate number of nurses available to nurse leukaemia patients.
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Nurses who have special training in oncology or leukaemia care are graded staff nurse or a sister and only five of the staff are in those grades. Those five nurses are expected to cover the two day-time shifts totalling over 13 hours. This means that, at any one time, there will not be more than two or three fully trained nurses for a ward which often has 18 very sick patients.
I hope that the Minister can accept that a regionally funded unit vertically integrated from pre-treatment ward to transplant and post-transplant treatment is the way to eradicate the problems which I raised.
9.50 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Nicholas Bennett): I thank the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) for his kind remarks on my first appearance at the Dispatch Box in my new role. I appreciated his comments. I also appreciated his chairing of the Select Committee of which I was a member for three and a half years. I have always found the hon. Gentleman to be fair-minded and sensible on issues that are not matters of party political controversy. I shall reply to his comments in a similar manner.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this debate on an important subject—the treatment of leukaemia patients—which is of concern to all hon. Members. I welcome the opportunity that the debate provides to set out the progress that is being made to help those people in our community who are unfortunate enough to have contracted this dreadful disease.
It may be helpful if I begin by explaining the all-Wales context for health service expenditure. The revenue funding made available to district health authorities in Wales has risen £267·033 million in 1978–79 to £945·401 million in 1990–91—an increase in real terms, after taking account of inflation, of 44·87 per cent. In 1991–92, spending is planned to rise to £1·188 billion—nearly 55 per cent. more in real terms than in 1979. Revenue allocations to South Glamorgan health authority rose from £57·841 million to £186·075 million in the same period.
In 1990–91, South Glamorgan health authority received an increase of £12–7 million over the previous year and its capital allocation was £7·938 million—an increase of 122 per cent. over the 1989–90 figure. That increase reflects the implementation of the second capital formula update which was forecast in the previous year's planning assumptions. It is important to give the all-Wales figures, because too often the impression is given that expenditure on our national health service has been cut when, in fact, in that period it increased by leaps and bounds.
On the specific issue of bone marrow transplantion, it may be helpful if I begin by setting out the types of treatment and the ways in which leukaemia is tackled in Wales. It can be treated by a number of methods, including chemotherapy, radiotherapy and bone marrow transplantation. District health authorities are responsible for the provision of services to lekaemia patients, but radiotherapy and bone marrow transplanattions are designated as regional services. District health authorities provide facilities at many of our hospitals and these provide ease of accessibility to patients and reduce the need for very sick patients to travel long distances for regular treatment. Such facilities are based within the hospital haematology departments, and in recent years departments have been

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improved as health authorities have responded to the needs of patients suffering leukaemia and other blood-related disorders.
Bone marrow transplants are becoming increasingly important in the treatment of leukaemia. We in Wales are fortunate in having a purpose-built bone marrow transplant unit at the University hospital of Wales capable of providing that complex specialist treatment. That unit was inspired by and evolved from the pioneering work of clinicians at the University of Wales college of medicine and the University hospital of Wales in the early 1980s. I am delighted to have this opportunity to pay tribute to all those who were involved in that pioneering work, especially Dr. Jack Whittaker and his colleagues in the bone marrow transplant unit.
In recognition of the need for a bone marrow transplant unit to be effective clinically and to make the best use of scarce medical expertise in this specialism, it was decided to designate the unit as a regional service. As such, it is funded by the Welsh Office to provide a service to health authorities in south Wales.
Regional designation was made in 1984 and central funds have been made available to South Glamorgan health authority to meet the capital and running costs of the purpose-built bone marrow transplant unit. It is funded to undertake 20 allogeneic transplants a year using bone marrow from suitable donors. Autologous transplants, which use the patients' own bone marrow, are also undertaken in the unit and are funded by the district health authority. In 1989–90, 21 allogeneic and 22 autologous transplants were carried out in the unit. As at 30 November 1990, seven allogeneic and 15 autologous transplants have been undertaken in the present financial year.
I am happy to give the figures for the first year: in 1988–89, there were 13 allogeneic and 18 autologous transplants. We have made progress in just two years. The health authority estimates that the cost of an allogeneic transplant is £60,005 and that of an autologous transplant is £54,210. We believe that that is money well spent on providing an opportunity for a patient to regain his or her good health. Reflecting the need to concentrate scarce clinical expertise, health authorities in north Wales secure bone marrow transplantation from neighbouring English regions.
The hon. Member for Gower raised several specific and important issues. If I cannot respond to all of them in detail today, I shall make sure that he receives a full explanation and letter from the Department as soon as possible after Christmas on those issues on which I am not able to pronounce.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the promise by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to respond to his questions at the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs on 24 October when he asked my right hon. Friend to visit the unit. I am pleased to inform the House that arrangements are in hand for that visit and, subject to confirmation with the hospital and the district health authority, my right hon. Friend hopes to visit the unit on 12 February. I, too, intend to visit the hospital and unit in the near future as part of my programme of visits to NHS facilities throughout Wales.
The hon. Gentleman referred to infection control and cross-infection. Advice is available to the hospital consultants and management from the control of infections officer to ensure a safe environment for the care
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of patients, particularly those with blood-related diseases such as leukaemia, who may be at special risk. I assure the hon. Gentleman that that advice is available at all times to any clinician who needs it. I hope that, if there is a problem at the University hospital, Dr. Whittaker and his colleagues will take it up with that official.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the use of a drug called alpha interferon. In addition to meeting the cost of undertaking bone marrow transplants at the University hospital, we have made central funds available to South Glamorgan health authority to meet the associated costs falling on support services such as the blood transfusion service and radiotherapy services which play a significant part in the bone marrow transplant treatment process. We recognise them as an important factor which we must consider. The cost of drugs used in the treatment regime is centrally funded.
I understand that the head of the bone marrow transplant unit, Dr. Whittaker, wishes to use a new drug, alpha interferon, as opposed to the more usual cyclosporin, which is used at the hospital. I also understand that the authority's drugs and therapeutics committee, which is composed of medical experts, has concluded that, at present, no convincing evidence exists for the use of this comparatively new drug and that its use is not justifiable on cost grounds. It is not, therefore, included in the hospital formulary and the unit general manager will not, therefore, sanction its purchase. I understand that Dr. Whittaker disagrees with that view. The chief administrative medical officer is now pursuing the matter with the parties involved. The Department's health professional group advises that the more usual drug for leukaemia patients is cyclosporin, and it is understood that this is available.
I must emphasise, however, that the specific drugs that may be prescribed are a matter for the managing health authority and the hospital management themselves on the advice of the drugs and therapeutics committee and it would be inappropriate for those of us without the essential training, technical knowledge and expertise to intervene in the question of the relative efficacy of drug regimes. I include politicians in that category. It would not be right for us, as lay people, to become involved in saying which drug is more effective. This matter must be decided by the clinicians. There is clearly a difference of professional view on this and it would not be right for the Government or Ministers to become involved in saying what should be done.
However, I emphasise that, as I understand it, central funding of drug costs has not been a factor militating against the availability of transplants where that treatment is regarded as the appropriate one for a patient. The same applies to the points made by the hon. Member for Gower about discharges from hospitals. Again, that is not a matter on which Ministers can make rulings; it must be for the clinicians in the hospital to make their own decisions, based on the health of the patient at the time, about whether that patient should, at an appropriate point, be discharged from the hospital.
The hon. Gentleman also referred to alpha interferon in connection with general practitioners. Professional advisers understand that, in the absence of convincing evidence about the wider use of alpha interferon, clinicians are voluntarily restricting the prescription of the drug to the treatment of hairy cell leukaemia. That is happening in

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authorities other than South Glamorgan which are utilising other available therapies that they consider appropriate. That, of course, includes cyclosporin.
It is important that we should look at the allegations that have been made by the hon. Gentleman and I shall therefore ask for a further review aned report on the points that he has made. I have asked officials to look at this as a matter of urgency. In the letter that I shall send to the hon. Gentleman in the new year, I shall include any further information that we receive on this matter. I assure him that no life-prolonging drugs have been withheld from patients. It is simply a matter of which drug is most appropriate for the patient. It is right that the health service should take account of costs. If a drug is an effective means of dealing with a complaint and is a lot cheaper than another drug, it would be ethically wrong to spend money on the more expensive drug. It is therefore right to ask the clinicians to make the judgment on that matter. However, we shall have another look at this and I shall write to the hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Gentleman also referred to the drug erythropoeitin, which is known as EPO for short. Funds have been made available to the health authorities managing the main renal units in Wales. They include South Glamorgan, West Glamorgan and Clwyd. The drug is used to counter the effects of anaemia. I understand that it costs about £6,000 per patient per year. We are making funds available to assist with the costs of providing EPO. This year, recurring funds of £240,000, which were first provided in 1989–90, have been continued and an additional £150,000 of funding has been brought forward. The total for the two sets of figures for 1990–91 is now £390,000. The hon. Gentleman, who is a fair man, will recognise that we are providing considerable funds for that drug.
Health officials are not aware of any instructions issued in Wales that would restrict the present arrangements whereby a general practitioner who accepts clinical responsibility for a condition requiring the use of the drug may use it. If the hon. Gentleman has any information to the contrary, I should be happy to receive it and will take the matter up. My understanding at the moment is that there is no restriction on general practitioners using EPO.
The hon. Gentleman also referred to anaesthetists and radiologists. I understand from the unit general manager at University hospital Wales that the complement of anaesthetists at the hospital is at present two short, but that arrangements are in hand to recruit replacements. The job descriptions have been approved and advertisements will be placed shortly. Details of the amount of time spent by anaesthetists and radiologists working for the bone marrow transplant unit are not available. It is for the hospital unit to plan the use of its personnel. However, I understand that no operations have been cancelled in the BMT unit as a result of the temporary shortage of two anaesthetists. I shall bring the hon. Gentleman's remarks on this point to the attention of the unit general manager.
The hon. Gentleman also referred to the district health authority's funding of the bone marrow transplant unit. No representations have been made by the South Glamorgan health authority that it is in difficulty in managing the regional service for allogeneic bone marrow transplants.
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However, in the context of the new arrangements that are to apply to regional services following their redesignation as district services with effect from 1 April 1991, the authority has indicated that, with the increased activity, the total running costs of the unit now exceed the funding provided by the Department. The latter relates to the level of service originally agreed—the 20 allogeneic transplants—and, as has already been said, the authority has not made any requests for additional funding in the intervening period. I shall, of course, ensure that the discussions that are taking place between South Glamorgan health authority and officials in my Department bear in mind the points that the hon. Gentleman has made when they consider the new arrangements that will be in place after 1 April 1991.
The hon. Gentleman also commented on what he said was the inadequate number of nurses available to the BMT unit. Again, we shall look at that matter and I will write to the hon. Gentleman about it. However, he will appreciate that it is not the job of the Department to monitor and control staffing at particular wards and units. Nevertheless, as the hon. Gentleman has raised this matter, we shall ensure that he gets an answer on it.
Looking to the future, the management and financial framework of the national health service is in the course of change to reflect the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990. To ensure that the national health service is made increasingly responsive to the needs of patients, new arrangements are being brought in from 1 April 1991. Those new arrangements will be introduced in Wales from next year for the specialist services which, at present, are designed and provided as regional services. That includes the bone marrow transplant unit at University hospital.
The arrangements are being introduced in discussion with the relevant health authorities, following a comprehensive review of individual regional services and consultation with the health service in Wales. Individual health authorities will negotiate contracts with the providing units on services for patients, including any associated drug costs. However, because of their costs, the variable need for them or their heavy dependence on the availability of donors, a number of services are continuing to receive central protection, subject to periodic review.
It is a measure of our concern for leukaemia patients that the bone marrow transplant service at UHW is among those services that will benefit from that arrangement. That will mean that the level of service which has, in the past, been centrally funded and available to patients throughout south Wales will continue to be available to health authorities to meet the needs of leukaemia patients. Detailed arrangements are being considered in discussion with the managing health authority.
I reiterate that, in the haematology departments of hospitals throughout Wales, we have good caring facilities for the treatment of leukaemia patients. That is no less so in South Glamorgan where, in addition to the district service, the University hospital of Wales provides a highly specialised bone marrow transplant service to patients from its own and other districts. That service is funded centrally to provide an agreed level of treatment and, with the support of South Glamorgan health authority, has succeeded beyond expectation in extending the service available to leukaemia sufferers.
As the new Minister responsible for health in Wales, I want to take this opportunity to make clear for all to see

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my commitment to the continuing work carried out over the past eleven and a half years to improve our health service. I use the national health service and I know how good it is. I believe that we can do even better. The policies that we have introduced to enhance health care by making it more responsive to the needs of patients and offering them greater choice will lead us forward to even greater excellence and quality and to a health service that will take Wales into the next century with a level of health care on course to rival the best in Europe.
I thank the hon. Member for Gower for introducing this subject which is of great concern to all of us in Wales and for giving me the opportunity, in my first debate, to reply on such an important subject.

Security (Ulster)
10.10 am
Rev. Ian Paisley: I am glad that this opportunity has been given to me to discuss a matter of the gravest urgency, the present security situation in Northern Ireland with special reference to the IRA's campaign of intimidation in County Fermanagh and County Tyrone. The Government have many pressing matters on their agenda but the first of those should be the defence and protection of the citizens of the United Kingdom. There is grave urgency concerning this matter in the United Kingdom's Province of Northern Ireland. I cannot stress the urgency enough.
I shall put the backcloth fairly before the House and the Minister. I am not suggesting that the Minister is in a state of ignorance, because he comes from Northern Ireland.. I know that he has been "Englified" to a great extent, but I hope that what he gained by birth, upbringing and education in Northern Ireland still has a controlling and governing residue in his life and heart. I feel that for the record we must put the dark backcloth into perspective.
In the past 21 years, some 2,800 people have been killed in Northern Ireland and 30,000 have been maimed. If those figures were put into a United Kingdom context, 100,000 people would have been killed and 1 million maimed. Perhaps those figures go deeper to the hearts of hon. Members. That being so, we have a most grave problem.
The Minister will remember a passage in scripture in which a certain king of Israel asked, "Who killed all these?" It would be appropriate for me to tell the House of the problem, but I shall not use my own words because people may say that I put a gloss upon it. I shall use the words of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume), the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party in Northern Ireland. When addressing his conference on 26 November 1988, he said:
"Let the record speak. Up till last Saturday 2,705 people have died in the twenty-year period of the current troubles. 31 per cent. of these were members of the security forces. 14 per cent. were members of paramilitary organisations. 55 per cent. were ordinary civilian men and women from both sections of the community, 69 per cent. of whom were from the Catholic community and 31 per cent. from the Protestant community. And who killed all those people? The statistics are devastating. 44 per cent. were killed by the Provisional IRA and 18 per cent. by their fellow travelling 'republican' paramilitaries."
That shows that the majority of killings were carried out by republican terrorist organisations. The hon. Member for Foyle went on:
"27 per cent. were killed by Loyalists. 10 per cent. were killed by the British Army. 2 per cent."—
and that is an interesting figure. From the Opposition Benches, not including my Unionist colleagues, there is a cry that there is a shoot-to-kill policy in Northern Ireland. Yet only 2 per cent. were killed by the Royal Ulster Constabulary. There is a tremendous agitation from Dublin and republicans in the House that the Ulster Defence Regiment should be stood down. Yet an even more amazing figure shows that only 0.28 per cent. were killed by the UDR.
The hon. Member for Foyle said:
"In short, people describing themselves as Irish republicans have killed 6 times as many human beings as the British Army, 30 times as many as the RUC and 250 times as many as the UDR. And wait! One of their main claims is that

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they are the defenders of the Catholic community. Of the 1,194 members of the Catholic community who died, 46 per cent. were killed by Loyalist paramilitaries, 37 per cent. by people describing themselves as republicans and 17 per cent. by the security forces. And in the last 10 years since 1 January 1978 of the 305 members of the Catholic community who have lost their lives, 112 (37 per cent.) have been killed by people describing themselves as republicans, 105 (34 per cent.) by Loyalists and 88 (29 per cent.) by the security forces.
In the last 20 years republicans have killed more than twice as many Catholics as the security forces and in the last 10 years have killed more than the Loyalists."
Those facts need to be emphasised so that the matter may be put into perspective.
I could go on to defend the security forces, but I want to say that, in my public career, my party and myself have stood solidly in defence of the security forces—the Royal Ulster Constabulary, its reserves, the Ulster Defence Regiment and the members of the other regiments of the British Army. Although I believe that it is my duty as a public representative to seek a change in security policy and to bring to the House's attention any weaknesses in the policy, in no way have I ever tried to attack members of the security forces on the ground who are doing a very difficult job. Our thoughts are with the troops in the Gulf, but the thoughts of the Ulster people are also with their security forces at this time.
This Christmas, men will leave their families and children and put themselves on the line. When the little curly-headed lassie puts her arms around her daddy to say goodbye, she does not know whether he will return. Those men should get the plaudits of this House. We should honour them as they deserve. I pay tribute to their courage, resolve and unflinching integrity. One or two matters may have annoyed people and, naturally, we have brought them to the House's attention, but the integrity of those men is almost 100 per cent. Today the House should put on record the fact that we honour those men. They deserve our prayers and support.
The death of Constable Lewis Robinson at the Killeen barrier post has caused me great personal concern. This year we have had to pass through a grim ordeal. Seventy-four people have been killed in Northern Ireland compared with the total of 62 for the previous year. This year the IRA has been more active in Great Britain and on the continent than ever before. The late Ian Gow, who represented Eastbourne, fell massacred by IRA terrorists, leaving his seat vacant, and we must also consider that.
Nineteen ninety has seen the emergence of human bomb attacks. It is appalling that the IRA strap the driver in. Their most recent atrocity was to disable a man's legs so that he could not escape if there was that possibility. That is the depths of depravity reaching rock bottom. The treatment of his father and mother was almost like Saddam Hussein's tortures in Kuwait. We must set our face against that and take steps to ensure that it is not allowed to recur.
There has been an upsurge in attacks on the Protestant community in the rest of the Province with Mr. Gilmore in Kilrea and Mr. Shields outside Maghera. I treat with disdain and scorn those so-called mistaken shootings. People should not have a gun. Moreover, every killing is a mistake. Indeed, it is more than a mistake: it is evil and must be rooted out of society.
What comfort can a mother have when she looks at the corpse of her son and hears ringing in her ears the IRA's
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apology that it murdered the wrong person? When it comes from so-called Protestant paramilitaries, it is even more nauseating because the basis of Protestantism is civil and religious liberty for all men. We should condemn anyone who says, "We are out to murder, but we are sorry that we have murdered the wrong person." The Government must take as many steps as possible to wipe that out of our community.
The RUC's chief constable has warned us of a threat of increased IRA activity and the Government have taken it on board. We have an extra 550 troops in the Province. Last night the city of Belfast was brought to a complete standstill by a series of hoax bombs and real bombs which were defused. It took me one hour 20 minutes via Hillsborough to reach the airport. I had to fly here yesterday because I dared not leave it until this morning. Anything could have happened and there would have been no possibility of my fulfilling my duties in this House.
The Government need to look hard at that. It is paralysing our economic life. It is putting the mailed fist of Republican terrorism on the artery of our economy and seeking to despoil it. What sort of men who would rule the whole of Ireland seek to blow up the shops in the centre of Belfast which serve the community? I fear that, before Christmas, there may be even greater atrocities in our land, especially in Belfast.
The security forces have confirmed that the IRA has undoubtedly large amounts of Semtex and weapons. Some have been recovered and we welcome that. Every gun that is recovered may be a life saved. Every pound of Semtex that is recovered is probably a life saved or, at least, a life free from maiming. Searches should be redoubled. Although Republican areas protest against the inconvenience of such searches, it is better to inconvenience the public than to follow coffins to the grave and allow the IRA to have its way.
I will not go into the Killeen incident in depth. If anybody has an interest in the life of a police officer, I in my capacity as a minister of the gospel had an interest in preserving the life of Constable Lewis Robinson. His father-in-law is an elder in the church that I serve. I have not only a political but a pastoral and personal interest. He was abducted and murdered. What alarmed us was that when that was reported to the officers at the barrier there were insufficient back-up forces to go down that road and deal with the IRA who were about to murder the officer. That is at the heart of the matter, and I will not weary the House with all the details. The prison officer who informed me of that came with me to see the Secretary of State whom he told exactly what took place.
I am aware of certain criticisms of what happened. They are criticisms not of individual police officers or of members of the Army, but to the effect that there were not back-up forces to deal with the matter. The Chief Constable has every right to defend his men and to condemn the monsters who commit such murders. However, no responsible chief constable has the right to attack a public representative for simply pointing out to the community that something is seriously wrong with a security policy that does not have the back-up on the ground to deal with a crime such as that which was about to be committed against Constable Robinson.
The Northern Ireland press does not treat me very favourably, or at times very fairly, but if one is in the kitchen one should take the heat and not complain. So when I quote from the Belfast Newsletter, I am not quoting

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from a publication that is a Paisley fan, if I might use that expression. Similarly, when I quote from the Belfast Telegraph, I am also not quoting a newspaper that is a Paisley fan. In the early days, both newspapers did everything possible to keep me from being elected to the House and to Stormont. On the day that I fought the Stormont election, one of them printed the name of my opponent on its front page with an X marked against it, and warned its readers that they should have nothing to do in that election of my wife's husband.
So, when those newspapers take off against the Chief Constable, it is because they are convinced that something must be put right. The Chief Constable viciously attacked the media, and political leaders whom he did not name, for bringing into the public domain the growing sense of hopelessness and helplessness. The Belfast Newsletter printed in its opinion column the headline, "RUC Chief off target." It commented:
"Whatever else may be said about the response of the security forces it is a demonstrable fact that it has been inadequate. It serves no purpose for the media or anyone else to blame individual officers.
But equally it serves no purpose for any one in authority to imply or suggest that, out of a sense of loyalty, the security forces should be above and beyond criticism either for what they do or fail to do. That is the road to further bloodshed and infinite despair."
Rev. Martin Smyth: The hon. Gentleman is right to bring to the attention of the House the failure of our own security services. However, did not the abduction in question take place on the Republic side of the frontier? Tremendous claims are made about the great co-operation between the two security services, but how can such atrocities continue to be committed on the main road from Belfast to Dublin without anyone being detained or apprehended? Is that not an example of the failure of that so-called co-operation?
Rev. Ian Paisley: Yes. I am disturbed that Ministers should have made statements to the House over a period of years about increasing co-operation. In fact, the Government have been very lavish with their praise. I do not know whether the Christmas spirit motivates Ministers every time they stand at the Dispatch Box, but their assurances appal the people of Northern Ireland.
I hope that the tragic incident involving Lewis Robinson will never be repeated, and that the Minister will give a strong assurance, which he will translate into action, that in future there will be a force adequate enough to take out those who would commit such a dastardly murder. To add to the remarks of the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth), the leader of the RUC federation had some strong comments to make in his annual address to the Northern Ireland Police Federation:
"Mr. Beattie went on to describe the south as 'an open house to murderers, bombers and gunmen', and the Irish Government as 'lacking in political guts', and accused them of hiding behind an 'unpredictable' judicial system and the provisions of the 1987 Extradition Act which he described as 'ineffective'.
He said that rulings in cases like that of Father Ryan were `a calculated insult to the British judiciary and a blatant political pandering which betrayed an unwillingness to grasp the nettle of terrorism.'
Mr. Beattie also called on Mr. Haughey to intern terrorists if he wanted to deny them safe haven. He said such action would serve more purpose and be a lot more constructive than endless attacks on the UDR and the professionalism of the RUC."
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I turn to the situation in Enniskillen and in South Fermanagh, which the Minister will know I have raised before in the House. I have in my hand a copy of The Impartial Reporter, which contains in its columns of public notices certain advertisements; and I will read one or two of them. One states:
"Owing to a phone call we can no longer serve the security forces. Traynor's Cafe, Maguiresbridge."
That is a Roman Catholic establishment. Another advertisement was placed by W. J. Kennedy in Magheraveely, which is a Protestant establishment:
"We wish to make it publicly known that we will no longer serve the security forces."
A third advertisement reads:
"At the request of the Fermanagh Brigade of the Provisional IRA, I, Barry McCormack, Proprietor of Silver Dollar Take Aways in Lisnaskea and Irvinestown, will not be serving members of the Security Forces."
The Minister has personal knowledge of Northern Ireland and a good grasp of Irish history, so he will know that the boycott weapon has been used in the past to intimidate people. It seems that there is to be a dreadful revival of that technique. It is all very well for right hon. and hon. Members to sit in this Chamber, in the relative safety of this part of the United Kingdom, and to criticise people for reacting in that way, by placing such advertisements—but what are they to do? I have twin boys, and I know how my wife and I would feel if, living in such an isolated community, we received a phone call telling us, "If you want to see both your sons in a coffin, carry on serving the police and the Army in your premises. But if you want to keep your sons alive, put an advert in the local paper to say that you will not serve the security forces."
The people who criticise and condemn those who place such advertisements have never been in their position. If people who are threatened go to the police, they are told that the police can do nothing to guarantee that their sons will not be murdered. The owners of such businesses are forced to place advertisements of that kind if they are to protect their families. Some right hon. and hon. Members might say that they should stand up and be counted, but although I in no way advocate giving in to the IRA, I must tell them and others that they should first imagine themselves in a similar situation. Only then could they appreciate what we and those shop owners are up against.
It is important for us to realise that what has happened on the border—the closing down of Army checkpoints overnight—has left Protestant families in a Government-created no-man's land. These people are simply terrified. I have talked to them, and they know not what to do. They are officially shut out from their own country for the period of darkness—the very time when the terrorists strike.
I trust that the Under-Secretary can give us some assurance today that the Government have taken this matter on board. I know that he is not able to tell us—nor do we want to know—the strategy that the security forces are adopting: that would pre-empt the effectiveness of such a strategy. However, I want a categorical assurance from the hon. Gentleman today.
The rubbish spoken by ecumenical prelates, including the new RC Archbishop of Armagh, will not bring a settlement from IRA terrorists. I find it grievously insulting to Protestant politicians when, on the numerous occasions that we pleaded with the clerical gentleman to talk to us—we said, "Please come and talk to us"—he said,

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"No, I will not talk to you." Yet before the world he insidiously trounced Protestant politicians and said that politicians should be talking.
I will talk to the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Armagh any day that he wants to come to me, as the representative of the whole of Northern Ireland in Europe. I shall be prepared to meet him—he is a constituent of mine—and I am prepared to listen to what he has to say and to tell him what I feel.
I know that the Minister was listening to the prelate recently, as was the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis). I do not know whether they benefited from the worship of the Virgin Mary in that programme. I would certainly not benefit from it. However, in politics we need to ensure that we do not act hypocritically.
10.42 am
Mr. James Molyneaux: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) for allowing me a little time to participate briefly in the debate. I am glad that the Minister has been joined by his ministerial colleague on the Front Bench—although it is not for the first time, especially in a debate on Northern Ireland—because I know that they both recognise the vital importance of security, which has been raised in the debate on the initiative of the hon. Member for Antrim, North.
We could borrow a phrase from another organisation and say that the most important thing is the "right to life". The hon. Member for Antrim, North mentioned the Ulster Defence Regiment. I have been astonished how the morale of that regiment has been maintained, and how the steadiness and fairness of its behavour have been so evident in the face of all the vile criticism levelled at it, especially in recent months.
There was a co-ordinated assault which resulted in the ill-fated Stevens inquiry. It was ill-fated because it proved precisely nothing. The Stevens inquiry was unfairly accused, by those who played a major part in bringing it about, of a whitewash job, but that was not the case. The reality was that there was nothing to discover, so it was hardly surprising that it ended in a fiasco.
Not one single conviction resulted on the basis of any terrorist-related offence as a result of the humiliation of all the members of the Ulster Defence Regiment, who were arrested as if they were terrorists or invaders in the early hours of a Sunday morning in the most disgraceful manner, which placed their lives and the lives of their families in jeopardy. Many of their families had to move to safer areas.
There was one astonishing statement in the inquiry report—there were many such statements but this one struck me in particular. It was the assertion that referees of recruits for Ulster Defence Regiment members ought to be interviewed. I have acted in that capacity, together with the hon. Member for Antrim, North and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) who submitted themselves to interviews. Being the honourable Members of Parliament that we are, we gave truthful answers. I was absolutely astonished that no one had told Mr. Stevens that that had been standard practice.
One nationalist spokesman recently declared that the Royal Ulster Constabulary would not be acceptable for
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about 50 years. Surely that is prejudging the effect of all that the police are doing to enforce the law without fear or favour. That nationalist spokesman ought to give advice to terrorists because, if they stopped their vile campaign of murder, I am quite certain that every member of the RUC would be only too delighted to revert to civilian policing. That would also encourage and permit a larger number of Roman Catholic applicants to join the RUC. They cannot do so at the moment because it would put their lives in jeopardy.
My view, which is shared by members of both our Unionist parties, is that all members of all arms of the security forces require and deserve the full support of Parliament and the Government. I know that Northern Ireland Ministers would agree that those forces should not be starved of the financial resources necessary to provide equipment. However, there are others in government whose job it is to ensure that money is not spent unless it is absolutely necessary to spend it. I have in mind those Ministers who occupy the building just across the road. However, they found the money to conduct the Falklands campaign and—all honour to them—they are finding the money to conduct the preparations for a possible campaign in the Gulf.
The security forces deserve and have earned our moral support. We could all help in that regard by illustrating the fallacy that only one side of the community suffers from inconvenience, and what is sometimes called harassment, by the actions of the security forces. All of us have been stopped, invited to get out of our cars on a pouring wet night and frisked. On one occasion, I had the distinction of being placed under close arrest for 50 minutes because I had committed the unpardonable crime of having an Ordnance Survey map of my constituency on the dashboard. However, I fully accept that the Army unit had to be impartial, and had to treat us all as potential terrorists and suspects. The security forces do not enjoy their arduous and dangerous duties, and the entire community has a duty to understand the stress under which they operate.
Hon. Members can say with confidence that no security forces anywhere in the world would have conducted themselves with the fairness, determination and display of fortitude which has been so evident among all the security forces operating in Northern Ireland.
10.48 am
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Dr. Brian Mawhinney): I thank the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) for doing the House a service by initiating this important debate, and for the way in which he did it. He and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) hold a common view in support of the security forces and of the police. I want to begin my response, which I fear may not be as full as I would have wished, given the importance of the subject, by adding my tribute on behalf of the Government to the security forces, the police and the Royal Ulster Constabulary Reserve. I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I thank them for the job that they do on our behalf in difficult and dangerous circumstances. We are immensely in the debt of the security forces, the UDR, the RUC and the reservists. They show enormous courage and make real sacrifices, and it is right and proper for us to recognise that.

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It is my sad duty to tell the hon. Member for Antrim, North that the 74 deaths to which he referred have been augmented by the murder of an RUC full-time reserve officer, Wilfred Wethers, in the lane-way of his house in Waringstown road, Lurgan, just after midnight. He had served in the force for 15 years, was married and ha .d four children aged between nine and 20 years. I know that the whole House will join me in offering sincere condolences to his family in this tragic circumstance, and in expressing our utter condemnation of those who murdered him.
I have listened with great care to what the hon. Member for Antrim, North had to say, and I understand the depth of feeling and breadth of experience underlying his arguments. He was, I think, right to rehearse again for the benefit of the House the harrowing statistics that he delivered, and also to point the finger: he, and all Northern Ireland Members, reject violence from whatever quarter it may come, but there is no doubt that the hon. Gentleman was right to single out the Provisional IRA as people who glory in murder more than any other organisation.
Neither the Government nor the security forces are complacent about the current level of violence. Indeed, the Secretary of State's statement about security policy made it clear that there is no such thing as an acceptable level of violence. We are determined to eradicate terrorism, whatever its source, and not merely to contain it; we are also committed to maintaining the rule of law, defending the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Northern Ireland and their opposition to terrorism, and creating the conditions for a just, peaceful and prosperous society.
However, we must also be realistic. The complete removal of terrorism is a difficult, complex and dangerous task. There is no quick fix, and, although many possible measures seem attractive at first sight, they may prove on analysis to be of little value, perhaps even self-defeating. That is not to say that the defeat of terrorism is an impossible task; it is not and it will be achieved. The Government are committed to ensuring that the police, supported by the armed forces, have all the resources that they need to undertake their difficult and dangerous work on behalf of the whole community. I hope that that reassures the hon. Gentleman.
It is, I suppose, only natural for the media and some others to concentrate on the tragic events that occur in Northern Ireland, and perhaps even to take a downbeat and depressed view of what happens in the Province. Let me pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, who did not fall into that trap today. There are successes. Only yesterday, for instance, the security forces recovered two AKM rifles, an Armalite, a pistol, ammunition, 5 lb of Semtex and other items of terrorist equipment. As the hon. Gentleman has rightly said, such action takes equipment out of the terrorist arsenal and saves lives. At the end of September, the security forces had recovered 167 weapons, nearly 17,000 rounds of ammunition and over 4,000 lb of explosives. So far, 288 people have been arrested and charged in connection with terrorist crimes, and 307 have been convicted.
In a sense, those finds are only the tip of the iceberg. Every day, at all hours of the day and night, in all weathers and everywhere—I repeat, everywhere—in Northern Ireland, the security forces are present. Sometimes they are visible, conducting foot or mobile patrols or vehicle checkpoints; sometimes they are not so visible. The effect
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of their activity is to deter the terrorist, to make him abandon deeds that would otherwise have cost lives and, sometimes, to catch him red-handed.
It is important to the security forces, and to the pursuit of a security policy in Northern Ireland, that those forces receive the backing of the law. The Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Bill is currently in Committee. If it is the will of the House, a new power will be given to the police and the armed forces—the power to examine documents and other recorded data found in the course of a search as far as is reasonably required to ascertain whether they contain information that is likely to be useful to terrorists.
There will also be a new offence, that of possessing items intended for terrorist purposes, and a new power to allow the armed forces to seize equipment used to reopen closed border crossings. There will be another new offence, that of making bypasses around closed crossing points. All those measures are part of the fabric of tackling terrorism.
The hon. Gentleman raised the sad and deplorable death of Mr. Robinson. Continued attacks carried out on that Killeen stretch of the A I are in the interests of no one but the terrorist. Attacks or abandoned bombs on the road not only cause inconvenience and affect the financial returns of traders in the area, but are designed to kill. I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman when he deplored all the Provisional IRA's talk about mistakes. These are not mistakes; those people set out to murder, and they did so. If they got the target wrong—in their terms—that does not make it a mistake: it is still murder, and everyone should understand that.
It will not surprise hon. Members to learn—I thinks that this is the assurance that the hon. Gentleman was seeking—that we are looking closely at how better to protect that stretch of road, and are discussing with the Irish Government possible practical measures to improve its security and that of other border roads. I know that hon. Members will understand if I do not disclose the details of those discussions, for obvious reasons. Our aim is clear, however: we want to ensure that murders such as those of Constable Robinson, Judge and Lady Gibson and the Hanna family, and the recent attack on the Cloghoge permanent vehicle checkpoint are not repeated.
The hon. Gentleman talked with feeling about what was happening in Fermanagh, and again I share his feelings. Those who have not been put in such a position should think carefully before delivering serious criticism of the actions of those who have. The Government readi:ly acknowledge and appreciate the valuable contribution of those who serve in the security forces in that particularly difficult part of the Province. They provide a service to the community—as, indeed, do others who help them in their work.
I utterly condemn the Provisional IRA's campaign of intimidation and threats aimed at the people of Fermanagh. The security forces in that area are already stepping up their operational profile to protect and reassure those who are at risk, and to deter further terrorist activity. A comprehensive range of measures is already in place to protect and support those who are at particular risk. For obvious reasons again, I will not give hon. Members the details of the arrangements, but I assure them that all possible steps will be taken.
As we approach Christmas, it is important for us all to understand that we have a role to play in supporting the security forces in Northern Ireland. There are people who

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know who is causing intimidation in Fermanagh. There are people with information that coulld be of assistance. Apathy is not an acceptable discharge of civic responsibility when the lives of people are at risk. I appeal to all the people of the Province to show their support for the security forces and the police, not least by making available any information that would bring those perpetrators of violence to justice, for that ultimately is the best way to secure peace, tranquillity and prosperity in the Province.
I take this opportunity to wish right hon. and hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies and who have a complexity to their lives and a pressure that the rest of us do not experience a very happy Christmas. I am sure that they will agree with me when I say that it is perhaps even more important also to wish all their constituents a happy and peaceful Christmas.

Football
11 am
Mr. Tom Pendry: I welcome the opportunity to introduce this debate, for two good reasons. First, it provides me with the opportunity to raise matters that affect our great national game of soccer at a critical time in its history. Secondly, it gives the new Minister for Sport the first opportunity since his appointment to speak from the Dispatch Box on a sporting matter and therefore to break his duck, if that is not mixing my sporting metaphors too much. I genuinely welcome him, as I am sure the sporting fraternity does, to his new post. I look forward to having a dialogue with him on a number of sporting matters between now and the general election.
I pay tribute to the Minister's predecessor, the hon. Member for Lewisham, East (Mr. Moynihan) who had the unfortunate task of defending the indefensible—I refer to identity cards for football supporters—for much of his reign. I shall remember him not for that alone, but for much other important work that he did, away from the limelight, for disabled athletes and for his efforts to combat the evils of drug taking in sport. I am pleased to see from this morning's press that the new Minister for Sport is carrying on that good work. All sports lovers will wish him well in his new role.
Although I hold the post of chairman of the all-party football committee, I intend to speak in a personal capacity and to be constructively critical of the Government when dealing with matters that cause both me and the football world concern. I absolve the Minister from that criticism, certainly up to the time of his reply this morning. I do not blame him for any past failures. He is still enjoying his honeymoon period.
A casual observer of the football scene might have gained the impression that everything is progressing steadily towards conversion to all-seater football stadiums. However, the game faces a potential crisis, due to escalating police charges, delays in establishing the Football Licensing Authority and confusion over planning policies. Much more fundamentally, however, there is no cohesive and central strategy for the game. If football is to take the necessary steps outlined in Lord Justice Taylor's report into the Hillsborough disaster and harness the undoubted talents and willingness of many of those who are in the game, a Lord Justice Taylor with political clout will be needed to bring them to fruition.
The great strength of Lord Justice Taylor was that he was able to take a step backwards from any single area of football and exercise a dispassionate overview before he formulated his findings. If football is to derive full benefit from the report, it must draw on those same strengths when it comes to implementing and developing the report's findings. When we debated Lord Justice Taylor's report I told the House that it should be seen as a catalyst for change, not as tablets of stone.
A lot of nonsense is often talked, not least by some Ministers, when the finances of the game are discussed. If we were to heed the wishes of some, football stadiums would be overflowing with milk and honey. They would have money aplenty. The majority of clubs, however, survive on a financial knife edge. They are supported through fund-raising efforts and by the goodwill of fanatics, in the best sense of that word, in the director's

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box and on the terraces. A recent study by Jordan and Sons shows that only six out of the 20 clubs in the first division made a pre-tax profit in the 1989–90 season.
Another fallacy that must be firmly dispelled is that, somehow, football is a financial drain on the taxpayer. Nothing could be further from the truth. We all welcome the reduction in the football pool betting duty from 42·5 to 40 per cent. in the last Budget. However, that merely reversed the decision that was made by the Government to increase the rate from 40 to 42·5 per cent. Moreover, the £100 million over five years that will be released by that move is but a tiny fraction of the £2·4 billion that the Treasury has taken out of the game in betting duty during the last 10 years.
Furthermore, the £2·4 billion does not include the income that accrues to the Chancellor of the Exchequer from PAYE and VAT and other income derived from the thousands of jobs created by the footbal industry. Put simply, football is a nice little earner for the Government. If sceptics were to take the trouble to find out what positive moves football has made since the Taylor report was published, they would find that, in any comparison made between Government efforts and those of the football authorities, without doubt the latter comes off best.
Football has set up four working parties to get to grips with the Taylor recommendations. Great strides have been taken towards finding alternative sources of funding to bring about stadium improvements. They include a levy on transfer fees, broadcasting fees and even sponsorship for the FA cup. Football is making the running. The Government are lagging behind in their response to the challenges that we face if the game is to be taken in a good state into the next century. Ironically, the Government suffer to some extent from a problem that plagues football. Their interest in the game is spread over many areas and Departments. Certain aspects of football are covered by the Department of the Environment, the Home Office and the Foreign Office. The Minister's responsibilities for sport have now moved to the Department of Education and Science. I shall reserve my judgment on whether that is a good move.
The new Prime Minister has rightly been welcomed by the sporting authorities because of his genuine links with sport. I hope that he will listen, however indirectly, to the debate and consider the strengths of my arguments, including the one that I advanced at a recent conference of the Central Council of Physical Recreation. I said then that if the Prime Minister really cares about sport, he ought to enhance the Minister's position by making him a Minister of State. That would give him more clout to argue the case not just for football but for sport in general. That would ensure that the shortcomings of the Government's policies towards football in previous years are not repeated.
It might also avoid one of the Government's most significant failures, which is their laggardly approach to one of Lord Justice Taylor's most important recommendations—the Football Licensing Authority, which is to be charged with implementing and overseeing ground safety and conditions and the move towards all-seater accommodation by 1994 in all first division and second division grounds and in all league grounds by 1999.
It is now 17 months since the former Minister for Sport claimed that the Government would respond swiftly to
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anything Lord Justice Taylor had to say on safety and would activate whatever measures were necessary to ensure that grounds are safe.
Three months previously, on 20 April, even the former Prime Minister, whose attitude to the game was, to say the least, antipathetic, admitted that to delay a legislative measure that would enable us to take advantage of Lord Justice Taylor's recommendations for another 12 months would be negligent. As, 20 months later, the FLA is not up and running, negligence would be a charitable description of the Government's record.
It is not as though the Government are unaware of the serious problems caused by the delays. The hon. Member for Lewisham, East admitted to the House in the debate on the Taylor report:
"If we did not have the legislative vehicle in place, we would not be in a position to give clubs as much time as possible to meet the timetable outlined in the report.—[Official Report, 30 January 1990; Vol. 166, c. 257.]
Since that date, as the hon. Member for Lewisham, East
and his successor are aware, I have raised this matter many times, only to experience each time more delays and setbacks.
The Government missed their own deadline—1 June—for setting up the FLA and took a month to admit that such a deadline existed, despite the pleas from worried clubs which, in the absence of that body, were unable to determine what constituted a seat, let alone any major structural or design proposals.
The date by which the FLA will be up and running has constantly receded into the distant future, which has grave consequences for clubs. At the start of the current season, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester), as secretary of the all-party football committee, and I wrote to all league clubs asking how much progress they had made in converting to all-seater accommodation. Sixty-six per cent. of respondents have been unable to carry out any work and 86 per cent. were not planning to carry out any work this season. Given the delays in establishing the FLA, 45 per cent. were unhappy with the timetable laid down for conversion. More than one third said that their work had been directly affected by the delay. One club summed it up very well:
"The delay has reduced the impetus and importance of Taylor's recommendations."
We would all concur with that. The Government must take responsibility for this regrettable state of affairs, which unfortunately shows no sign of abating.
Only nine days ago, the Minister of State, Home Office, admitted to me that it would be unrealistic to expect the FLA to administer a licensing system effectively before it has acquired the necessary staff and expertise. I understand the problem of the Minister for Sport because it is not his responsibility, but that underlines my point that we should have a Minister with all-embracing powers.
Where do we stand 17 months after the Government's statement that they would respond swiftly to the Taylor report? To put it bluntly, the FLA, which wishes to get on with the job, has only one third of the administrative staff required for its operations and recruitment of inspectors is only just under way. It is estimated that that will not be completed until next spring. Even if all that were in place, the FLA still does not possess the legislative powers required to fulfil its role, because the Government have failed to implement sections 9 and 13 of the Football Spectators Act 1989. We heard in Committee time and again of the importance of those sections, which give the

539
FLA powers to lay down any terms and conditions for inclusion in the local authority safety certificates issued to clubs which it believes are necessary to the maintenance of safety.
Furthermore, the FLA is still waiting for powers to enter to inspect grounds, to examine club safety certificates and to obtain from local authorities information on the issuing of such certificates. It is not good enough for the Government to claim, as they did in October last year, that the FLA should ensure that the safety of individuals is at the top of its list; they are not giving it the tools to do the job. The FLA chairman, Norman Jacobs, is unhappy with such a state of affairs, as are football authorities, local authorities, the police and clubs.
It must be asked: who has benefited from the delay? It certainly is not football. The Government have saved £400,000, because 59 per cent. of the proposed FLA budget for the current financial year has not been spent. They should act swiftly and immediately to enable the implementation of sections 9 and 13 and that £400,000 should be ploughed back into the FLA to give it the assistance that it needs. Anything less would run counter to the spirit of the Taylor recommendations, which the Government wholeheartedly endorsed. The Football League estimates that the cost of implementing the recommendations in full, rather than simply putting shoddy seats into shoddy stands, would be as high as £665 million.
Given that, it is clear that there will be severe financial pressure on clubs as they seek to convert to all-seater accommodation, yet on top of that pressure the game is facing a crisis of potentially devastating proportions as a result of the staggering increases in police charges. Their charges have risen by four times the rate of inflation and there has been a concurrent rise in police wage costs in recent years. At the same time, the arrest rate at football grounds has dramatically decreased.
The Government are threatening to make matters infinitely worse by introducing a system of charging clubs for the full cost of policing, which includes costs of covering overtime and the leave and rest days of officers on duty. Such an approach is not proposed for similar events such as pop concerts and party conferences. If it were, the Conservative party would have to pay £2 million for policing its last conference. I do not think for one moment that the Government will be asking Tory central office to cough up that money.
It has been argued that Lord Justice Taylor supported such a system of charging. That is not true. He said that there should be a consistent and businesslike approach to charging and realistic costs. Nobody in their right mind could argue that the costs are realistic.
Overshadowing all that is the issue of planning policy guidance. The stark reality is that, if clubs try to relocate their stadiums, they are in danger of being thwarted by inflexible planning straitjackets contained in the Government's current draft guidance. The Minister has been keen to portray this document as "positive and flexible", yet in two separate parts of the guidance it is stated that football stadiums should not be regarded as appropriate development on green belt land.
The Minister nods, but the results of the survey published recently by the Royal Town Planning Institutes
540
how that such an approach could render the identification of new sites almost impossible. That must cause the Minister concern. We all accept that the green belt must not be breached, except in the most exceptional circumstances, but encouraging the development of genuine community-based, multi-purpose sports stadiums, with football clubs as the hub of activity and under an obligation to involve and serve the local community, would do much to enhance the breadth and quality of leisure provision. However, the Minister seems to adopt an unyielding approach to development.
Football has shown itself willing to undertake such activities through its highly successful and rapidly expanding football in the community scheme. Such an approach might finally attract families to games. We heard from the previous Prime Minister and others about bringing families back to the game. Families have never been involved in the game in numbers, so what we should be talking about is attracting them for the first time to our great game. That is the challenge facing Government in the years ahead.
Such developments would lead to greater support for sport in schools. I know that by arguing this case I am knocking at an already half-open door because the Minister has, as I have, a young son who is a keen sports buff. I suppose that that is a built-in pressure on the Minister to do something about protecting physical education and sport provision in the national curriculum for 14 to 16-year-olds.
I have argued that what is needed is a Lord Justice Taylor free from judicial constraint, a Leviathan figure to bring together the many disparate voices in the game. That begs the question of what form such a body should take. The Minister will not be surprised to know that I believe that the answer is a football levy board. The Minister will be aware, as the Prime Minister is, of my pleas for such a board in the past. I have outlined the case for it to them both. I hope that it has not fallen on deaf ears.
I shall not repeat today the case for such a board, but I want to explain how it could carry out the tasks that would be required of it if it were to take football into the next century and secure a bright future for the game. It could do so by bringing together all the bodies contained within the football body politic, whether administrators, players, representatives of the football authorities or, for the first time, supporters. It could do so under the chairmanship of someone appointed by the Government to do what Lord Justice Taylor could not do—push for and facilitate on a sustained and regular basis the implementation of the Taylor recommendations.
The essence of a levy board was summed up in 1978 by the Rothschild commission on gambling which recommended its creation. Rothschild said:
"Its funds and its independent standing should provide the leverage to enhance the better management and development of the game … it could be the energising agent for radical change."
If that was true in 1978, how much more true is it today after Taylor and Hillsborough?
The levy board would not be based on a government hands-on approach. It would concentrate minds and provide a coherent strategic policy to unite the efforts of the various bodies in the football world. Most important, through its links with the Government, it would be in a position, which no other body is in, to exercise sympathetic influences in development and planning. In doing so, it

541
could help secure the most prosperous future for the game, for, as the Minister knows, the potential is undoubtedly there.
In the past few years, attendances at league games have risen, with the virtual elimination of hooliganism coupled with a declining arrest rate. We have seen more goals scored per match and a clampdown on cynical play. To cap it all, we have had the shot in the arm provided by the performances of both supporters and teams during Italia 90. Indeed, the Government's supporters should be falling over themselves to don football shirts. After all, it must be one of the few ways in which they will be welcomed back into the European fold with open arms.
This season our domestic clubs will have the chance to gain international accolades for good behaviour and fair play as the England team did in Italy. Most recently, the newly established captain Gary Lineker became only the second player in history to receive an individual award for combining fair play with outstanding success. Gary not only has been and continues to be an outstanding ambassador for the game and for Britain but, as one who has never been booked or sent off at any point in his career, he provides one of the most shining examples to which any young child can aspire. I know that I carry the Minister and the House with me on that. Gary Lineker is acknowledged by the international authorities as the undisputed world leader of the game and an example to players of all nations.
I have been critical of the Government at times during my speech. I hope that the Minister realises that I would have criticised a Government of whatever party if they were responsible for a scenario similar to that which exists today. Constructive criticism in support of the greatest game in the world is never to be decried. I hope that the Minister and the House will accept my comments in that light.
11.23 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Robert Atkins): As ever, it is a delight to find myself at the Dispatch Box. It is not, as the hon. Gentleman suggested, the first time that I have done so, because I answered an Adjournment debate introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans) about sport in general.
However, this is my first opportunity to talk about football. The opportunity was provided by the foresight and interest in football of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry). He called football our national game but, to be slightly pedantic, I call it our national winter game because we have another game, called cricket, which we play in the summer. It is fair to say that football and cricket are two of the greatest games in the world. However, we are here today to talk about soccer.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for choosing the subject of football. On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, East (Mr. Moynihan), I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments—which I expected—about the work that my hon. Friend did. It was a difficult time for my hon. Friend, as the House and the hon. Gentleman, with his characteristic generosity, will accept. In the circumstances, he did what the House will accept was his best. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde also rightly referred to the other work that my hon. Friend did behind the scenes, not only for soccer but in sport
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generally. I know that my hon. Friend will be grateful for the encouragement and thanks of the hon. Gentleman, who speaks with considerable authority on soccer and many other sports issues. He is an acknowledged expert in the House, whose views cannot be dismissed lightly, although I would not do that anyway.
The hon. Gentleman was right to mention the improvements and changes that have taken place in soccer. They took place largely as a result of the activities of the England team in Italy, before I took office. As he said, the way in which the team played, the skill that the players displayed and the manner in which they conducted themselves both on and off the field was a joy to many people in Britain.
It was refreshing to see the inspired leadership of the captain Gary Lineker, who deservedly has won a multiplicity of fair play awards. He won not only the award in Italy but the new Stanley Matthews award for fair play. He has given a great deal of encouragement to many. As the hon. Gentleman suggested, as the parent of a young son, I regard the image that Gary Lineker projects as one which should be endorsed not only in soccer but in a wide variety of sports.
It is also good to see that there are rising attendances at football matches and that the standards of behaviour both on and off the field have improved in many respects. We wish to be positive about the future of football. We hope that what has happened in recent months and years was a chapter which is closed and that we can turn a new leaf and look towards what can be achieved in the future.
In the time allowed, I wish to touch on how such moves should be taken. Since I took the job as Minister for Sport—at the Deparment of the Environment from July onwards and now at the Department of Education and Science—I have taken the view that it is incumbent on me to listen to what sports administrators, governing bodies and those involved at national level, such as the National Sports Council, the Central Council of Physical Recreation and various other bodies, have to say before I pontificate about what should happen. The hon. Gentleman was, as usual, perceptive when he highlighted the difficulties that a Sports Minister faces in dealing with the various other Departments which have responsibilities for sport.
It would not be proper for me to comment on his invitation to the Prime Minister to upgrade the job to Minister of State. However, I shall ensure that the Hansard report of the debate is presented to the Prime Minister, who may choose in due course to react to the hon. Gentleman's interesting proposal.
As I said, I have listened closely to what sports administrators have said. Clearly, I cannot and will not interfere with the management and administration of games or sports. That is a matter for the administrators, but I can cajole and encourage them, raise matters about which I am worried and let them know which aspects I support. It is proper that the Sports Minister, along with hon. Members on both sides of the House who feel strongly about certain matters, should set the agenda and make sure that the sports world understands our anxieties.
We touched briefly on sportmanship. The hon. Gentleman is aware of and shares my anxiety about standards of sportsmanship not only in soccer but across the sporting world. I was delighted at the action taken recently by the Football Association on the Arsenal-Manchester United brawl. Such brawls have no place in

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football. I hope that that message has got through clearly to two great clubs, to which a fine was relatively insignificant but on which the deduction of points had a more salutary effect. That is crucial.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in his incarnation as Chancellor of the Exchequer, reduced the betting duty by 2·5 per cent. in last year's Budget and thereby provided about £100 million over the next five years to improve football, following the Taylor report. When he was Chancellor—and I hope that, as First Lord of the Treasury, he will not resile from that commitment, in part at least—he said that further funds would be forthcoming for soccer if there was evidence that the football clubs, especially those in the league, were taking action to improve the grounds.
As the hon. Gentleman said correctly, these matters are divided among various Government Departments. If we are talking frankly, we can say that there is an argument for bringing together aspects of the controls. However, although I may have views on that, it is not the case at present. Although my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister understands and shares these concerns—that is one reason why he moved me to the Department of Education and Science—there is a long way to go. It is not for me to comment in any more than the broadest terms about the operation of the matters that fall to the Home Office and to the Foreign Office, although I can touch on the Department of the Environment as I was there recently and I will deal with the planning aspects.
The hon. Gentleman made suggestions about the Football Licensing Authority. I can only pass on to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary his concerns. I have had the opportunity to meet Norman Jacobs, who I find an extraordinarily impressive chairman. I know that he understands and cares about soccer and that he understands and is aware of the problems as perceived by football clubs from the first to the fourth division and beyond. I know that he will do what he can to ensure that the proposal, which my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, East said was important, comes into effect.
It is the intention of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to bring sections 9 and 13 of the Football Spectators Act 1989 into force as soon as it is appropriate to do so. Section 9, which creates the offence of admitting spectators to unlicensed premises, cannot come into force until the Football Licensing Authority can implement and administer the football licensing scheme. Section 13, which will empower the Football Licensing Authority to require local authorities to include in any safety certificate such terms and conditions as may be specified in a written notice issued by the FLA, will not come into force until my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and the FLA are satisfied that the authority has acquired the necessary staff and expertise to exercise that power. That will depend largely on the recruitment and training of a team of professional inspectors, the majority of whom are expected to be in post by next spring. The hon. Gentleman's point is well taken and I will ensure that I continue to press my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary about it.
The hon. Gentleman referred to police charges. Although the headquarters of the Lancashire constabulary are in my constituency and I have a lot to do with the police, I cannot comment on the details of police charges,
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which are entirely a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. However, I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman's points continue to be brought to my right hon. Friend's attention.
The hon. Gentleman was very concerned about planning. In my previous incarnation, I handled not only sport but planning at the Department of the Environment and I had partial responsibility for the issuing of the policy guidance note that addressed the problem of the building of new stadiums. I have considerable sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman has said. I have, on occasion, visited football grounds such as Preston North End, which was one of the founder members of the league and which has had substantial connections with football over the years at all levels. I understand exactly what is involved in the improvements required to stadiums, as do other hon. Members and people involved across the game. I understand the need to improve, to renovate, to rebuild and, in some cases, to build afresh, but we must come to terms with the fact that local planning authorities have their own views as a result of their closeness to their local communities.
In my constituency—I am sure that this is true of many others—local people have firm views about what they want or do not want to see in the green belt and in rural or semi-rural areas. Although one can make suggestions, it is very much a matter for local authorities to express their concern. Durham county cricket club has recently come into the county championship and there has been concern about the proposed new stadium at Chester-leStreet. It is not right for me to prejudice the planning committee's decision in Durham, but I can say that the Department of the Environment decided not to call in that planning application. The development will be major stadium with a variety of sporting facilities. It is planned to be built in an area in which it may cause local controversy.
I am reminded of some of the problems at Bristol Rovers and at other clubs. There are areas that need to be addressed. When I was at the Department of the Environment, I tried to emphasise the importance of local planning authorities understanding what was involved.
Football clubs and those associated with them must discuss planning proposals with the local authority at an early stage. It is no good for them to produce a plan and to present it as a fait accompli to which the planning authority must agree. That is not the way it works, as the hon. Gentleman will understand. Co-operation and consultation are required across the board before decisions are made. We have tried to impress on local authorities that they must consider the matter sympathetically and favourably, but it is a matter for them in the final analysis, as they represent their local communities and have to take them into account. However, the hon. Gentleman's points on the need to consider further development are well understood.
The hon. Gentleman talked about football in the community and I agree with him strongly about what has been achieved. My local club, Preston North End, like so many others, had a ground that was rarely used during the average football week. It is now used 20 hours a day, seven days a week by the local community, not only in Preston, but in the surrounding area, including my own constituency. Schools can hire the ground and youngsters can play in the great stadium where Tom Finney was at his best. Other sporting functions have been held there, such

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as a great international between the world hockey champions and the Olympic hockey champions. It was a marvellous match which was played with great style and watched with great interest.
Many other groups use the facilities at Preston which, as the hon. Gentleman knows, has an artificial pitch. That has posed particular problems with the Football Association and with the Football League, and the club will have to pull up the pitch and restore the grass because of FIFA's views and because of the views of professional footballers about playing on grass. That poses a problem for football in the community and for the involvement of clubs. The digging up of the pitch will have a detrimental effect on community involvement at Preston North End. Oldham and Luton face similar problems.
Mr. Pendry: And Hyde United.
Mr. Atkins: I know that Hyde United is an important club in the hon. Gentleman's pantheon of great clubs.
The hon. Gentleman talked about a football levy board and, over the years, he has been well known for expressing strong views on that. I know that he wrote to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer and he has raised the matter with me both privately and publicly. He shares his strong view with my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester).
There is a difference of opinion. I have listened to football clubs, to specialists, to journalists who understand the game and to others. There is quite a division of opinion on the matter. I am coming to the view that perhaps the football levy board is an unnessary bureaucracy. The Football Trust is carrying out remarkable work at the moment and I have spoken to many of the people involved with it and have witnessed their work on the spot-the-ball competition and other activities as a result of the dispensation on the funds made available by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Since I have been involved in soccer, I have become aware of the imperative need for soccer to be able to speak with one voice. At the moment, the Football Association, which is the custodian of the rules and the ultimate authority in the game, and the Football League, through the 92 clubs, represent two different voices. They represent most of soccer's attractions to the public, although not exclusively, because the Vauxhall Conference league and many other smaller clubs have regular and committed attractioins as do small boys' teams. I am president of Bamber Bridge junior football club which runs teams of boys from the age of 11 to 16. All those teams play football to a remarkable standard and they are just as important in many respects as teams like Manchester United, Tottenham Hotspur and others of that ilk.
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We must address soccer's problems with finance and the need to place bids for the World Cup, the world championships and the European championships. We must also deal with the problem about sponsorship and the fact that the American football logo is better known and better marketed in this country than soccer's logo—if there is one. There is an enormous amount of potential finance available for soccer and I believe that the football authorities understand that.
I have pressed on the president of the Football League and the chairman of the Football Association and their respective officers the need to talk regularly and continually about improvements in relation to a single body to represent football. There should be some reform of the voting structures of both the FA and the Football League. There should be reforms to the FA's very large council and, in the Football League, to the voting structure of the various divisions.
If those improvements can be carried out and people have an opportunity to discuss the future of football at that level, there can be a conjunction of effort. I understand that the FA believes that there cannot be a merger because it is the ultimate authority. However, there should at least be a conjunction between the FA and the Football League so that they can speak with authority about the game, both professionally and in amateur terms.
I am convinced that that is the way forward. The FA and the Football League must recognise that there is pressure for that conjunction from the lowest level of football in playing and spectator terms throughout the game at both amateur and professional level to the management of top league clubs. I believe that they appreciate that, but there is still a long way to go.
I hope that the FA and the Football League will hear the message of the hon. Member for Stalybridge arid Hyde, who speaks with such authority on these matters, and note my views and the views of those who take an interest in the game. Soccer is a great game and it has achieved great things. We invented the game, as we invented so many others, and we gave it to the world. If we are to continue to exercise leadership, having overcome problems of spectator violence and restoring, renovating and renewing stadiums and providing the finance to allow the game to move into the 21st century, the support of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde, of the Government and of the lovers of the game at every level is essential.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this subject for debate. He will join me in wishing football at every level every success in the 1990–91 season. I hope that we can move from strength to strength and ensure the continuation of the improvements that have already been made both on the field and off it. If they continue, soccer's future is as bright as it has ever been.

Community Charge (Armed Forces)
11.43 am
Mr. Michael Mates: You will recall, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I have addressed you before on the community charge. When I last did so, the House was packed and it was the most daunting experience of my parliamentary life to have to try to persuade my colleagues and Back Benchers that my Government had got something less than perfectly right. I lost the day on that occasion by a fairly modest figure, and since that day, two and a half years ago, we have had to live with a community charge that has proved to have been the single greatest mistake made by the Government in this Parliament.
However, that was another day and another age. Far from despairing now, I am full of hope that the new Administration are determined to put matters right and to make the necessary adjustments so that what is a reasonable way of collecting local government finance from all our citizens can be operated fairly because the unfairness rankled most. We look forward to the result of the Government's review, with the help, I hope, of the Opposition parties, so that we can find a way to finance local government for the next decade or so.
However, this morning I want to consider a particular aspect of the community charge which has rankled with me more than any other because, frankly, it was crazier than any other part of the system. I want to consider the way in which the community charge is applied to the armed forces.
Under the rates, service men were required to contribute to local government. That was perfectly right and proper. There is no reason why service men should not make a fair contribution to the costs of local government services, some of which they use. However, they are unique in that they are the only people who have to live and work where they are told. To that extent, they are different from the police force, the fire service, the ambulance service and the civil service. All those people can, if they wish, say, "No; I will not move to Yorkshire. I wish to stay here". That may affect their promotion or careers, but they have the right to say no. A service man does not have that right. he must go where he is told, and live and work where he is told for as long as he is told until he is ordered to move on.
The rates system was sensitive to that and was fair to the service men and to the local authorities. Every soldier, single or married, paid a sort of rate. The charge was averaged and deducted from his pay at source, and it remained the same wherever he was. The Ministry of Defence paid the local authority a rating charge for the barracks, and the local authority had a return from the MOD for the services that it provided. That worked like a charm. Everyone was happy with it and knew where they were. The service men had no complaints and 100 per cent. of the charge was collected because it was deducted at source.
After the change brought about by the introduction of the community charge, although I had views about the principle in general, I held a strong view with regard to the armed services. I believed that the system that operated for the services under the rates should prevail under the community charge. I could see no reason then, and have been shown no reason since, why that system should not
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prevail except for the dogma which, alas, accompanied the Government's attitude to the imposition of the community charge.
Instead of every service man continuing to contribute to local government by paying an average community charge collected at source and paid over by the Ministry of Defence, the Government decided that they had to treat service men in the same way as everyone else and that they must pay the charge in the area where they happened to be.
I pointed out at the time that that practice would produce anomalies, discontent and unfairness. It has done all those things to the extent that it is now a considerable source of resentment within the services, and I can well understand why. If a soldier is posted from district A to district B, the posting may be accompanied by a "fine", if I can put it that way, of between £400 and £500. If a soldier moved from Wandsworth to Camden in the course of his duty, he would move from paying less than £200 to paying more than £600, with no compensation, no choice and no ability to influence the local authorities through his vote in either place. Soldiers rarely get that chance.
I raised this problem at the beginning of our debates on the community charge with the then Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Mr. Neubert). I said that the system was unfair and unjust and please would he change it. He wrote me a long letter on 11 January 1989 which, I am afraid, does no more than repeat the dogma that has accompanied this whole issue. He stated:
"We have decided that members of the Armed Forces in Great Britain will be treated as the rest of the population for the purposes of the Personal Community Charge".
Members of the armed forces are not like the rest of the population. They cannot exercise the choice that can be exercised by the rest of the population.
What has happened has been a sorry tale of how a perfectly fair and reasonable method of ensuring that service personnel make a proper contribution to the cost of local government has been abandoned for a more expensive, more bureaucratic and far more unfair system. As far as I can discern, that was done only for reasons of ideology. I have not been given one practical reason why it had to be done in this way.
It seems particularly stupid to do away with a simple system and to devise a complex one instead. The simplicity of the former average charge is there for all to see. I do not need to develop that point. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) knows the anomalies that have been created because he has had difficulties in his own constituency about which he spoke when he was not a member of the Government rather more robustly than I suspect he will be able to speak today. The soldiers in Salisbury refused to pay because they had their own reasons for thinking that the system was unfair. We had the sorry sight of the courts having to deal with a large number of service personnel who were in default of the community charge.
Let me say straight away that service men, like anybody else, must obey the law. The fact that it is a bad law is neither here nor there. We are all bound by the law of the land, and the service men were wrong to refuse to pay. However, I can understand their resentment because there has been similar resentment in my constituency which has a large number of service personnel and—perhaps more to the point—a large number of transient service personnel. The community charge does not pose them as much of a problem as it does the local authority.

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The school of electrical and mechanical engineering, which is located at Burton in the middle of my constituency, runs 12-week courses. Technically, on moving in, the soldiers should pay 12 weeks' worth of the local community charge and go away again. What a ludicrous system—because the soldier then has to be rebated at a different rate from wherever else he was previously for the 12 weeks that he spent in my constituency. That has to be worked out all the time. It is a nightmare for the local authority, which would far rather be without it. It is also a nightmare for those in charge of the service establishments, who are co-operating fully with the local authorities to try to unravel some of the complexities. It is a nightmare for the service men also.
Perhaps more serious than something that is wholly inconvenient is the fact that, when soldiers are sent to Northern Ireland, they are treated differently according to whether they are married or single. Is there any easier way of stirring up discontent when a battalion is moved and parted from families for four months to serve in Northern Ireland in one of the more dangerous jobs that the armed forces have to do than to find that the married soldier, on patrol with the single soldier, is treated differently and that one is being penalised while the other is favoured according to the amount of time that they have spent there? When soldiers go to do unpleasant tasks, the one thing that keeps the whole thing together is what one could call "the equality of misery". A soldier wants to be just as badly off as the chap in the next trench. A difference, especially a financial difference, is the first and most basic cause of discontent, but that is what is happening in Northern Ireland.
Our soldiers in the Gulf have also been in difficulties, although, rather late in the day, that is now being put right. Some have to continue to pay their community charge while sitting in the desert, possibly waiting to go to war. Others have not had to do so because their local authorities have not responded in the same way. However, it should not be for the local authorities to respond. It should not be left to the good councils to say, "We are not going to charge service men the community charge for the period they are in the Gulf," and for other councils to continue to levy the charge—not for political reasons, but because they are not as sensitive. That should not be the system. There should be a system throughout the armed services under which everybody contributes fairly. The Exchequer will get its money and the Department of the Environment can distribute it to the local authorities along with the rest of the grant.
What is even more extraordinary—my hon. Friend may not know this—is that when the system was changed the armed services offered to take on the bureaucratic burden of levying a standard community charge. The armed services offered to make the payment from the Ministry of Defence, which would have raised the charge from service men, to the Department of the Environment so that it could distribute the money fairly to the local authorities. I have to be careful in what I say about this, but this happened at the very highest level. The service chiefs said, "We will do this. It will be our contribution to collecting the charge simply, efficiently and fairly, and we will let you have it." However, the DOE turned that down because those in charge at that time said that a service man must pay his share wherever he happened to be. It was all part of what the Government chose to call "local accountability".
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You will know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that, because of the number of times he moves, a service man is jolly lucky if he can vote in a general election in the same place more than once, but we have made arrangements so that service personnel can retain their votes. However, that is even less likely in local government elections, given that such by-elections happen at much shorter notice than do parliamentary by-elections and the fact that a service man can move, go away on courses, go to Northern Ireland or Germany or across to Canada to train. He is not likely to be in his local authority area or to be able to play a significant part in local government.
Therefore, a service man cannot exercise the local accountability that was part of the ethos of the community charge that I understood. The Government have done so much to destroy local accountability that it is now practically non-existent. However, that is for another debate on another day, and I look forward with great hope to having that debate on general terms because there have been changes that make me hope that we shall be able to bring about great improvements.
Given that there cannot be local accountability, why, even now, can we not change the system? It would not be complicated. We are coming to the end of the financial year and, by 1 April, the services could comfortably have in place a system whereby they would collect from source a service man's fair and just contribution.
It would be the same for every service man, wherever he is serving in the world. It would make a difference when personnel are posted back to the United Kingdom from overseas. As service men do not pay the community charge in Germany, when they return here they have what they consider a cut in their pay. Of course, it is not a cut in pay; it is just that they now have to pay for a local service for which they did not have to pay before. But that is not the way that a service man looks at it, and nor should he—indeed, nor did he for all the years when he paid rates when he was in Germany or wherever else. The accommodation charges were part and parcel of the whole system.
I am offering my hon. Friend something that he should find very difficult to refuse—a change that will make his life simpler. It is a change that will bring in more revenue for the community charge so that the local authorities get more money. It is a change that will be implemented at no expense to his Department because the load will be taken by the Ministry of Defence. Although the Ministry would have a little more bureaucratic work to do, I believe that it would be relieved by the change because it would iron out many of the anomalies.
We would know that the collectability of the community charge would be 100 per cent., which it was before, but which is not the case now because many service men are getting away with it by being posted at times of the year that make it almost impossible for the local authorities to catch up with them. Above all, it would be a change that would bring to an end a widely felt source of resentment in the services—indeed, I need not tell my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary about that, because he knows about the resentment in his part of the world.
Why can we not have this change? No reason has been given to me by the Department of the Environment or the Ministry of Defence, save the most spurious of ideological reasons, which were trotted out to me repeatedly: that this was the system and this was what was going to happen because the service man must be treated exactly the same as his civilian counterpart. The service man is not the same

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as his civilian counterpart in almost any other aspect of life because he lives within a disciplined organisation, his job differs from a civilian job, and at a moment's notice he may have to go anywhere in the world. We should be able to give him a guarantee that those demands on him will not bring him additional expense because of the way in which local authority finance is limited. He will look on it as a fine for doing his duty.
If my hon. Friend can bring this system to an end and bring a sense of fairness into this tiny part of it, he will see that that is easily done. I hope that that will add more power to his elbow and that of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to make the whole system much fairer.
12.1 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Robert Key): It is a great pleasure to answer this debate, which was initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire, East (Mr. Mates). We all remember the valiant fight which he put up over a long period. It is good to see him back in his usual place, with the hearty endorsement of his constituents and constituency party in the new era which we face together.
It is important to recognise the service which my hon. Friend has done. Not only has he had a distinguished military service but he has done a service to the House in the way in which he has represented his constituents over many years—a task in which he acquired a reputation for fearless championing of many causes—and the way in which he has steered the important Select Committee on Defence, on which I congratulate him.
My hon. Friend referred to fairness, and I would add a sense of fair play—qualities which I share with him. Perhaps we share those important characteristics because we went to the same school, my hon. Friend attending a mere year or two before me. If one goes to a school as old as ours—Salisbury cathedral school will be 900 years old next year—and sings as sweetly as my hon. Friend—
Mr. Mates: And my hon. Friend the Minister.
Mr. Key: —as I try to, perhaps it is not surprising that we share common values, which include a sense of fair play and justice.
My hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces is, unfortunately not able to be here today. He would have been on the Bench beside me, but he is visiting our troops in the Gulf and he has asked me to send his apologies to the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire, East raised a sensitive and important subject in which he has taken a long interest. He raised it on 8 June 1989 in the debate on the Army and on 18 October 1989 in the debate on the defence estimates. I too have an interest in the proper and fair treatment of the armed forces. My hon. Friend said that I represent a large number of soldiers in my constituency of Salisbury. In fact, there are 14 Ministry of Defence establishments in my constituency, embracing all three services. Therefore, I could hardly have been unaware of these problems. It was a sad time for me last September when a large number of soldiers who had failed to pay the community charge on time were summoned to
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appear before Salisbury magistrates. They did not all appear, but many did, and I was subsequently able to meet their representatives.
This raises the important issue of the access of soldiers to their Members of Parliament. As my hon. Friend rightly said, they belong to a disciplined profession. They do not easily run to their Members of Parliament. They sometimes think that that will lose them status or credibility or get them into trouble. I went to considerable lengths as a constituency Member to ensure, with the commanding officer of the south-west district, that all the soldiers in his area had unhindered access to their Members of Parliament to discuss this important issue. That assurance was readily given. I believe that all hon. Members will always be available to soldiers and military personnel in all our services. That fundamental right is in no way denied to members of our armed forces.
I welcome the opportunity to restate that position. In terms of local accountability and the important fundamentals of the community charge, it is crucial that those who pay the charge should have the right to express their opinion to their local authorities and to Members of Parliament who approve the legislation. My hon. Friend mentioned voting rights. It is a complicated business. The proxy voting system for service voters is complex. Military personnel can nominate one person in one place to be their proxy and that person is not precluded from casting a vote on their behalf at local or general elections. Service personnel should be reassured on that point and should perhaps make arrangements to ensure that their vote is cast at local as well as general elections.
Mr. Mates: In case my hon. Friend was wondering why I sat down a few minutes early, it was because I forgot to raise one point about local accountability which I should now like to put to him. It concerns the Gurkhas who are stationed in my constituency. This point is not for his Department but for the Ministry of Defence. Everything that my hon. Friend said about the right to vote, local accountability and the right to appoint a proxy goes straight out of the window in terms of the Gurkhas.
One battalion of Gurkhas serves in this country. They have no right to vote. Their families are not here, there are no children here, they need no local schools or local libraries and need almost no local services, and they are paying what amounts to one month's pay in community charge. Hampshire district council, the local authority, is embarrassed at having to charge them. I raised this matter with the Ministry of Defence, which simply said that the Gurkhas were members of the British Army and, like everyone else, must pay their whack.
That is another point of deep resentment which I should have mentioned at the end of my speech. I put it to my hon. Friend in the context of what he said, rightly, about local accountability and the right to vote. The Gurkhas have no right to vote. They are not British citizens. They are here because we require them to be here. They are parted from their families and have no need of the raft of local services that other service men use, yet they pay the full community charge despite being paid less than British soldiers. That is nothing short of a scandal.
Mr. Key: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that matter. It gives me the opportunity to explain how the arrangements affect the Gurkhas, for whom I have the highest regard. I am not a military man. It is true that in

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my school cadet force I rose to the dizzy heights of company sergeant major, but that was a bit different from the real thing. However, I met the Gurkhas in the Falklands shortly after hostilities ceased. I saw the remarkable strength and characteristics of that proud body of men. When I have developed my theme, I shall deal with the points raised by my hon. Friend.
It is true that not all service personnel currently register to vote and we have been seeking ways of increasing that number. Only about two thirds of service personnel currently register to vote and I hope that through this debate we shall encourage more of them to ensure that their right to vote is exercised in this country. We encourage service personnel and their spouses to register. They can adopt the service system with the service proxy if they wish. I am assured by my colleagues in the Ministry of Defence that annual reminders are provided through notice board displays, and that further advice is available at any time.
I thought that it would be helpful to provide some background about the community charge. One of the main policy objectives of the charge is that everyone should pay something towards the cost of their local services. That has been accepted by most people in this country. We have made exceptions for certain categories of people and ensured that those at the lower end of the income scale are eligible for rebates of up to 80 per cent.
Like all other adult residents in Britain, members of the armed forces make use of local services and are entitled to vote in local elections. It has been argued that service personnel do not make as great a use of local authority services as their civilian counterparts. That argument is largely without foundation, but it is certainly a source of trouble and misunderstanding, as I have found in my constituency. People have come to my surgery or have written to local newspapers about the problem. It is often Army wives who are incensed about the issue saying, "Why should we pay the community charge when we live in married quarters in a garrison town?"
In fact, service personnel do make use of local services. They enjoy the benefit of local emergency services, and they do not all just sit in their garrison towns or barracks. They are part of our community. In my constituency, we welcome the fact that service personnel make an important input into the life of the local community, and we respond by treating them as part of that community. They benefit from emergency services such as fire and police if they are required. Perhaps people forget that roads and street lighting have to be provided, and that may not be the case if the Army or the Royal Air Force were not present in a particular location.
All the support services for those establishments are provided by local authorities. Even refuse disposal is ultimately the responsibility of the local refuse disposal authority. Some soldiers have told me that that is nonsense. They say that part of their duty is to sweep out their barracks and empty it into the dustbin, which is then taken to another part of the barracks and transported somewhere else in an Army truck. The "somewhere else" is a tip provided by the local authority. The Ministry of Defence and local authorities often negotiate contracts for the disposal of waste, and it may be that the Ministry of Defence pays directly for that service. However, more commonly, it is done as part of a local authority service, and the refuse is disposed of in the proper manner and to the highest environmental standards.
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The local recreational facilities such as libraries and swimming pools are used by service personnel. Also, service personnel with children will be using local state-maintained schools. Their children make a great contribution to the life of those schools. In my constituency, those children, who have often travelled the world, make an enormous contribution that would be missing if the service personnel were not present. Indeed, many schools have been constructed by the local education authority almost exclusively for the use of service personnel.
Although many of the services may be applicable only to married members of the armed forces, single personnel living in barracks are in no worse position than their civilian counterparts for whom the same services are available. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire, East has had the argument put to him, "Why should I have such a high community charge when I am a single man of 22? I am earning my living and paying my taxes and I do not use the social services available for the elderly or live in a council house and I do not have children at local schools." The same argument applies to those of us who do not use a particular local government service.
Mr. Mates: That is right. It is part of the debate and part of the resentment. Everything that my hon. Friend the Minister has said is an argument for saying that service personnel must contribute their share. That is not the point of my raising this debate. I know that they must contribute their share, but why should they have to contribute a different share according to the whim of where they are posted over which they have no control? That is the point.
Mr. Key: I accept what my hon. Friend says about the lack of control over their own lives and where they reside. I shall come to that later.
In the circumstances, I think that it is accepted by everybody that armed forces personnel should pay something. Under the law as it stands, they must pay their share of the personal community charge. As my hon. Friend said, the law is the law and it must be obeyed by service personnel as by everybody else, even Opposition Members who currently refuse to pay their community charge. How unfair it is at Christmas that rich Members of Parliament should be refusing to pay their community charge when their less fortunate constituents are having to pay it for them and make their contribution towards the cost of local services. How selfish can one be?
We do, however, recognise that members of the armed forces are in a special situation. There are a large number of them in different parts of the country. They are also subject to posting over which they have no control and which is generally for short periods. Like other people, members of the armed forces are subject to the personal community charge in the borough or district in which they have their sole or main residence. In the vast majority of cases, it should be straightforward to determine where a person has his sole or main residence.
Given this special situation of service personnel, we were keen to see that all community charges registration officers came to similar decisions when determining the main residence of people serving in the armed forces.
I anticipate that my hon. Friend may say that that has not always been the case, that CCROs have not always taken the same views, and that sometimes, even within a

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garrison town that happens to straddle a local authority boundary, different decisions have been made. That is why, early last year, we issued guidance to all registration officers. It was non-statutory guidance on the registration of service personnel and was agreed with the Ministry of Defence and the local authority associations.
It says that single personnel detached or posted to service units and living in barracks or mess accommodation for periods in excess of 61 days will be regarded as having their sole or main residence in that accommodation as from day one. This is not an arbitrary figure but recognises that, under Queen's regulations, personnel in barrack accommodation do not have a right to return to that accommodation if they are away for more than 61 days.
Married personnel living in married quarters or in private accommodation will be regarded as having their sole or main residence with their families, while married personnel who are posted away from their marital home for periods of unaccompanied service in excess of six months will be regarded as having moved their sole and main residence to the new location as from day one. Single personnel who are householders will also be covered by this rule.
I am relieved to say that this guidance has been updated so that married personnel did not have to change their sole and main residence simply because they were posted to a different base, and that the area in which their marital home was would remain the area in which they were registered. That advice has no statutory basis and registration officers can disregard it if they feel that it is inappropriate to an individual's circumstances. I understand that CCROs are generally following the guidelines. It is important to set out these details so that my hon. Friend can see that we are aware of the special position of members of the armed forces and that we take it into account when preparing guidance.
A good example of our response is the situation of service personnel in the Gulf. Recently, we issued guidance on this to local authorities, after constructive dialogue with the Ministry of Defence. If someone is posted overseas for a period which is unknown from the outset, local authorities have been advised to remove them from their community charge register. In that way, such a person would make no payments during his absence. No direct action to chase payments or recover arrears will be taken against personnel temporarily overseas. Notices and reminders will be sent to their home base. The effect will be to relieve service personnel from worries about their community charge. Although the guidance was issued as a result of the situation in the Gulf, those arrangements will also apply to other postings which are regarded technically as being overseas for these purposes, such as Germany and Northern Ireland.
In a few cases, some personnel posted overseas, and therefore ceasing to be liable for the personal community charge, may become liable for a higher standard charge. If that happens because of a posting to the Gulf, the Ministry of Defence has agreed to reimburse the excess. Those arrangements will facilitate the pledge of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence that no service personnel posted to the Gulf will be worse off as a result of that posting.
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We have also brought forward new measures covering new classes and multipliers for standard charge properties. One of those new classes is for property which is empty because the person who owns it occupies another property which is job-related. The maximum multiplier for that class of property will be one half. That is intended to help people who have to live in job-related accommodation, and it should be of assistance to many service families.
Mr. Mates: I am fascinated to hear all that is going on to remove some of the anomalies. Does my hon. Friend agree that multipliers, special arrangements for empty properties, zero rating and arrangements for overseas postings could all be avoided if we returned to the old system under which a service man paid a standard contribution from source throughout his career? Would that not be simpler and fairer?
Mr. Key: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has said that nothing is ruled in and nothing is ruled out. I cannot say that we should return to the old system. We may or we may not when our right hon. Friend has completed the present review. Obviously, I listen carefully to my hon. Friend's advice.
My hon. Friend raised two specific points. He suggested that there should be a single averaged community charge. I am sure that he will recognise that to do so would undermine the accountability principle of the community charge, in that the armed forces would be cushioned against the effects of the spending levels, the provision of services and the efficiency or inefficiency of the authority in which they live. The converse would also be the case, in that an average charge would stop members of the armed forces from benefiting from lower charges. A member of the armed forces could pay less or more for the same services available to a civilian.
Mr. Mates: Was that not precisely the case with rates? Service personnel were not insulated against low-rated or high-rated areas. They took the rough with the smooth, and over the years it worked out fairly. If the Government were not concerned about that in the era of the rates, why this sudden concern in the era of the community charge?
Mr. Key: It is because we are a listening Government. We would not wish to see our soldiers having to take the rough with the smooth if we could think of a better system.
The Ministry of Defence recognises that members of the armed forces living in public accommodation whether married quarters, mess or barracks, have no choice over where they live, as my hon. Friend pointed out. They are ordered to a particular place and to specific accommodation over which they have no control or choice. That could mean that they are moved to an area with a very high community charge, whereas a colleague may be sent to an area with a low charge. The Ministry of Defence has recognised that and has made arrangements under which no member of the armed forces, or their spouse, who is living in service accommodation should pay more than a service average community charge for such accommodation, plus £1 per week. That is dealt with by a scheme of accommodation charge refunds.
For the current year, the service average community charge is £325, so with the addition of £52 the maximum individual personal charge payment for any member of the armed forces is £377. The cost of the scheme, estimated at

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£1·1 million in the current year, has been taken into account by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body in setting the general level of accommodation charges.
Obviously, if service personnel are posted to an area with a lower charge than the average service community charge, they pay that lower charge. Personnel in public accommodation can therefore benefit from low levels of community charge, yet there is a generous limit on their maximum liability. They can pay no more than £377, whereas the maximum they could be liable to pay is £548, which many civilians must pay. Those arrangements go a long way towards alleviating the situation which my hon. Friend described.
The second point that my hon. Friend raised concerned the treatment of Gurkhas. I bow to no one in my admiration of these soldiers who have so often fought for this country.
It may be helpful if I set out how Gurkhas are paid. The basic pay of the Gurkha in the British Army is set by the Indian Army under the provisions of the 1947 tripartite agreement between India, Nepal and the United Kingdom. Under the terms of the agreement, the United Kingdom can provide allowances to Gurkhas serving away from Nepal, and separate Gurkha additions have been set for Brunei, Hong Kong and the United Kingdom.
The calculation of the United Kingdom addition starts with the baseline of the British soldier's pay. That is abated to take account of the fact that Gurkhas receive a resettlement grant on their discharge and that they do not pay national insurance contributions. Gurkhas do not pay for their food and accommodation, so their pay is abated by the equivalent of the single soldier's food and accommodation charge. The result of all that is that, financially, a single Gurkha is in a similar position to his British counterpart.
When the community charge was introduced, the rates element of a single British soldier's accommodation charge was removed. That means that the single Gurkha soldier's pay abatement is smaller. The pay of a married Gurkha is not abated by food and accommodation charges, which puts him in a similar position to his British counterpart.
Since the Gurkhas are an integral part of the British Army, and when stationed in this country their pay is based on British soldiers' rates of pay, there are no
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grounds for singling them out for special treatment. The only case for treating them differently would be if they were financially disadvantaged by the community charge. As I have explained, we have sought to ensure that they are not financially disadvantaged in that respect.
This has been more than just an interesting debate—it has been an important one. I hope that my hon. Friend will be left with the realisation that members of the armed forces are treated fairly under the communtiy charge and that, within the bounds of the system, the Government have done all that they can to recognise the special position of service personnel.
As a constituency Member of Parliament, I acknowledge the special circumstances under which service personnel live, both as single service men and as part of families. Those problems are familiar to both my hon. Friend and myself. The Government have sought to ensure the basic tenets of justice and fair play to which I referred at the beginning of my remarks.
Mr. Mates: I am delighted that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is conducting a review, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will accept my remarks as formal input in that regard. When that review has been completed, perhaps someone will let me know how judgment has been reached on what I regard as an unfair situation, and how it is proposed to change it.
Mr. Key: I am delighted to give my hon. Friend an undertaking that his comments will be regarded as a formal representation for the purposes of the review. I shall continue to look forward to my hon. Friend's contributions, and I repeat my gratitude to him for raising the issue. It falls to me to wish you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and my hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire, East a very happy Christmas.

Royal Assent
Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Act 1990

Fraserburgh Harbour Order Confirmation Bill

Housing (Wakefield)
12.30 pm
Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse: I am grateful for an opportunity to raise the problems of the housing crisis in Wakefield. No doubt local authorities in other parts of the country face similar crises. I shall attempt to be as factual and constructive as I can and to put the points of which I have been advised as I understand them.
Wakefield metropolitan district council's housing committee recently approved a five-year strategic local housing plan, which has the stated intention of providing an effective, efficient and caring service to people living in both public and private sector accommodation—paying particular attention to those having special needs and to maintaining a commitment to equal opportunity.
Wakefield will be confronted by a major problem in the immediate future, in the form of insufficient resources with which to provide a housing service that will adequately meet demand. Even Wakefield—a local authority which efficiently provides services, as is demonstrated by its performance indicators being far better than average; its voids are only 1·1 per cent. of stock, and its arrears are only 2·5 per cent. of debit—needs adequate resources if it is to be effective.
Wakefield's public and private housing stock will continue to deteriorate unless the controls that prevent its metropolitan district council from raising the finance to fund necessary investment are relaxed. For many years, Wakefield managed without subsidy or resorting to general rate fund contributions. The full costs of the public sector housing service have been met by the rent income from the authority's tenants.
The last 10 years have seen a decline in the number of new-build dwellings and since 1988 no new schemes have been incorporated in Wakefield's capital programme. As many as 1,000 dwellings have been sold at a discount under the right-to-buy arrangements, and the total stock now available for letting is 20 per cent. less than 10 years ago. That has resulted in a waiting list numbering 12,300. Of those applicants, 77 per cent. require rehousing, not merely transfers, and 34 per cent. require accommodation for the elderly.
Ten years ago, young couples living in lodgings and on the waiting list for council accommodation could have expected an offer within two months. Currently, young couples starting out in life, single parents and families living in lodgings, face a wait of 12 to 18 months. There is a definite need for more single-person accommodation. As new-build schemes are totally unaffordable, family houses are having to be converted in an attempt to ease the problem, but that initiative only scratches the surface.
Will this country for ever have to live with a reputation for having young people who must live in cardboard boxes or in temporary hostel accommodation? A problem that was once confined to the capital, is now spreading throughout the country. Wakefield is attempting to follow the guidelines to work with other bodies and associations. However, can we expect housing associations to build 1,000 houses per year for rent at an affordable price?
Wakefield is at the centre of a mining and industrial area which has experienced unprecedented reductions in the work force in recent years. With more than 60 per cent. of tenants in receipt of housing benefit, many families and
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young people dare not take the risk of a long-term mortgage liability, even if they could afford the repayments at present.
Wakefield gives an annual revenue cash support to the housing association which took over ex-British Coal properties, which were being auctioned off over the heads of the existing tenants. These properties have been neglected for so many years by British Coal that they now need a programme of structural and environmental improvements, which will have to be undertaken from the ever-reducing housing investment programme allocation.
The new capital controls and the use of capital receipts have meant more restrictions on the resources available, resulting in an investment in 1990–91 which is only half that of 1989–90. The amount of capital investment for the public sector is a mere £150 per dwelling, which, as hon. Members will appreciate, does not go far these days.
Persistent lack of definite housing investment programme allocations and changes in the use of prescribed capital receipts has meant considering alternative ways to maintain reasonable housing conditions by improving the housing stock. Such cuts have certainly affected the council's ability to carry out full-scale housing improvements. Although properties are maintained to a reasonable standard, many thousands of post-war properties built in the 1950s and 1960s lack modern up-to-date fixtures and fittings. The council has had to reduce the standard of improvements to two basic elements: the provision of central heating and window replacements with draught-sealing qualities.
This year the Government withdrew subsidy under the grants system for aids and adaptations for disabled tenants in the public sector. Last year, of the 4,580 referrals for adaptation work, 1,067—23 per cent.—were for public sector tenants. With ever-increasing demand for this service, such expenditure now takes one sixth of the admissible basic HIP allocation.
The council has a statutory acquisition obligation. The statutory acquisition of designated defective pre-cast, reinforced dwellings continues seriously to affect the council's resources. In the Wakefield area, 172 pre-cast reinforced properties have been sold by British Coal and to date 97 of these properties have been purchased by the council, plus 182 which were previously in council ownership. Nearly one sixth of the council's basic HIP allocation is spent on acquisition of PRC dwellings.
Although Estate Action funding gives local authorities the chance to bid for extra resources, we must recognise that 50 per cent. of the capital cost still has to be found by the council from within its own resources. That leads to high capital investment in one small sector of the housing stock, to the detriment of other properties which are deteriorating through lack of investment. While it may resolve the problems on one estate, others are queuing up behind. The whole question of funding Estate Action projects requires review, so that 100 per cent. of the cost is supported by supplementary credit approvals.
Like all other authorities, we also have the problem of care in the community, as those initiatives have to be pursued, despite the deferral of the Government's proposals. Wakefield has within its boundaries two major regional resources—a hospital for the mentally ill and one for the mentally handicapped—which are discharging long-term patients into the community. The local council, the local health authority and housing associations are for

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ever attempting to find the resources to cater for the need to provide accommodation and the supervision that is necessary for such clients.
The new financial regime that controls subsidy paid to the housing revenue account will ensure that rent increases are in line with the Government's guidelines and more, owing to the inadequate inflation provision of a mere 5·5 per cent. for management and maintenance. Such rent increases will be necessary without any improvement in services. In 1991–92, the tenants of Wakefield, who are not receiving housing benefit, will probably be contributing to the rebate for their neighbours who are.
The lack of housing investment does not only affect the public sector. Following an expensive appraisal of the district's older housing stock, the council embarked, in 1979, on a 10-year improvement programme, with 82 general improvement areas proposed. Some 11 years later, with the strategy only half complete, owing to massive cuts in local authority housing finance, the council has been forced to re-evaluate the condition of the older housing stock to take account of the substantial changes contained in the Local Government and Housing Act 1989.
The council has also made a significant commitment to continue its area improvement programme, and has recently completed its first neighbourhood renewal assessment, as required by circular 6/90, before considering the declaration of renewal areas. The survey relates to 3,000 pre-1919 properties; it studied not only housing conditions but the socio-economic status of the local households. It revealed that 2,672 properties—80 per cent. of the total—needed extensive repairs, while 1,925 —64 per cent.—were unfit for habitation. More than 30 per cent. of households in the area were in receipt of means-tested benefits; 56 per cent. of households had a net weekly income of below £150. Over 80 per cent. received less than the national average, while 15 per cent. contained people of pensionable age; 76 per cent. had no savings, or at best insignificant amounts.
It appears from the survey's detailed analysis that the council is required to invest some £50 million over the next 10 years if it is to provide decent homes for the local community into the 21st century. The staggering repair bill for that area alone must be seen in the context of other demands on the housing capital allocations.
I am well aware that the Minister recently visited Castleford, and, in particular, the Smawthorne review area, which is involved in the improvement programme. I understand that he saw the completion of the first neighbourhood renewal assessment at Smawthorne. The council is now embarking on a major reassessment of its area renewal programme. It is estimated that 15,000 homes in the district need substantial repairs, that 2,500 properties lack basic amenities and that 4,300 are statutorily unfit—although that may well be an underestimate now.
Given the amount of unfitness revealed by the survey, it is estimated that a staggering £250 million—at least—will need to be invested to preserve the fabric of Wakefield's old housing stock. Like many other authorities, Wakefield faces the problem of houses in multiple occupation—HMOs. During 1989, the council carried out a detailed HMO stock condition survey, which revealed that many people were living in the most squalid conditions imaginable. Eighty-four per cent. of properties lack adequate means of escape in case of fire; 32 per cent. were considered unfit for habitation; 80 per cent. lack
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adequate sanitary and washing facilities; 84 per cent. were not in a satisfactory state of repair; 66 per cent. of tenants experienced difficulties in persuading landlords to carry out repairs, and 40 per cent. of properties failed to comply with the HMO management regulations.
Such property houses many elderly, single and vulnerable members of society. Their number is growing at an alarming rate, due to the inadequacy of alternative accommodation provided for vulnerable groups by socially responsible landlords.
In response to the growing housing crisis, the council has developed a housing aid service. It provides information, advice and advocacy on a wide range of housing matters. Use of the housing aid centre has risen consistently and dramatically since it opened. The combined effects of the Housing Act 1988, the Social Security Act 1986, the recent benefit changes, the introduction of the poll tax and the Government's high interest rate policy continue to have a serious impact on the local community, as reflected in the use of the centre.
Between April 1989 and March 1990, the housing aid service dealt with the following problems: 1,535 benefit inquiries, 376 cases of debt counselling, 322 cases of harassment and illegal eviction, 917 people looking for accommodation, 243 cases of relationship breakdowns, 728 mortgage problem cases and 874 cases relating to security of tenure. Many of those cases are the direct result of the Government's policy to deregulate rents and high interest rates.
The housing aid centre also dealt with 598 cases of homelessness and 917 cases of people looking for accommodation. The vast majority of them come from non-priority groups. They are mainly single people who are destined to end up sleeping rough or living in squalid conditions in multi-occupied properties. I never thought that I would live to see the day when people in my constituency had to face such conditions. When I left the Wakefield metropolitan district council in 1978, having been its housing chairman, people could expect to get accommodation within two months of making an application. During the last 10 years, the outlook has deteriorated to the extent that I have described.
The council has reacted positively to the new grants system. More than 1,000 inquiries were received during the first six months. Given the resources available for house renovation grants, the problem has become insoluble. Under the new income assessment procedure, 52 per cent. of all households assessed had a nil contribution to make. That highlights the low incomes and the poverty faced by many people in the district. In total, 80 per cent. make contributions of less than £2,000. With average repair costs approaching only £10,000, it makes economic sense to preserve communities by providing warm, dry, well-repaired and affordable homes. However, a considerable burden has been placed on the council by its overall housing allocation.
The means test for grants poses its own problems in many cases. Many people, particularly the elderly, resent the intrusive questions associated with the tests and refuse to give the information required. In addition, the means test takes no account of existing housing costs. Many households, in particular young, first-time buyers, are advised that their contribution will be substantially above what they can afford. The Government must change their policy now and target sufficient resources not only on

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people but on property when the council considers that comprehensive rehabilitation of its older housing stock is necessary.
I gave the Minister notice of the contents of my speech, so he will be familiar with it. I shall therefore omit some of the points that I intended to make, if the Minister will reply in writing to them.
The 1991–92 HIP allocation for Wakefield of only £11·14 million is inadequate to meet the Department's indicative spending amounts of £6·4 million for public sector borrowing, £500,000 for housing association work and £6·8 million for grant-eligible works. That makes a total of £13·7 million, yet the 25 per cent. use of capital receipts is reducing because tenants fear high mortgage rates. Capital income is reducing because few houses are being sold.
I recognise that no Government have a bottomless pit of money, but the shocking deterioration in our housing stock in the past 10 years cannot be met and put right overnight. Will the Government examine the feasibility of allowing local authorities the freedom to raise finance on the open market, similar to housing associations? I accept that the Government will never provide adequate resources to meet demand, but will they merely relax the controls to allow local authorities to use their own initiatives and resources to resolve the problem?
If not, will the Minister say how Wakefield can provide a service that meets the needs and demands of 40,000 tenants, 8,000 potential tenants and owners and private-sector tenants who have a right to decent accommodation?
Only yesterday, it was announced that the crime rate in West Yorkshire has increased by 20 per cent. Although I do not condone that or place all the blame at the door of the housing problem, when people get desperate and have nowhere to put their head down they are attracted to petty crime. I hope that the Minister will appreciate that point.
12.51 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tim Yeo): I congratulate the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Mr. Lofthouse) on his success in obtaining the debate and on the forcefulness with which he put his points.
One of my first duties, three days after taking up my post, was to visit the hon. Gentleman's constituency and to launch Wakefield council's area regeneration project at Smawthorne, which is one of the first in the country. I received a warm and friendly welcome from the council and the people of Wakefield and, despite the brevity of my visit, I was able to see many positive things happening in his constituency.
I was sorry, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman chose to paint a rather pessimistic picture of housing in Wakefield district. That did less than justice to the efforts of the local authority in tackling some of the problems. I am grateful to him for notifying me yesterday of the points that he would make today, which I shall try to deal with in the nine minues that he has left me. I dare say that it will be possible to write to him about the points that I cannot cover.
One of the hon. Gentleman's main arguments was that the resources for the district are inadequate to allow it to
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undertake everything that it felt it should be doing. It is rare for any authority to feel that it has sufficient resources to do everything that it would like.
Taking up the suggestion that the hon. Gentleman made at the end of his speech, I am afraid that an open-ended policy on local authority borrowing would do nothing to ensure that spending resulted in good value for money. It would certainly be contrary to the Government's long-standing commitment to control public spending and reduce inflation.
My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning recently announced a housing investment programme allocation for Wakefield of £11,104,000 for next year, compared with £10,517,000 for the current year and £5,235,000 for 1989–90. The increase in allocation between 1989–90 and 1990–91 reflects the requirement under the new financial regime that local authorities should set aside a proportion of their capital receipts against debt. It also reflects the greater targeting allowed by the revised capital control system and by the Government's ability to take into account in their calculations a proportion of the usable capital receipts available to authorities. I note that Wakefield's expenditure in 1989–90 was approximately double that of 1988–89, mainly because of the use of accumulated capital receipts. Although expenditure in the current year is expected to fall back from that peak, I hope that the surge in spending in 1989–90 has alleviated some of the housing problems that now require attention.
It is also open to the council to propose schemes for improvements to the stock on estates which could attract additional funding from our expanded and highly successful Estate Action programme, which now stands at £268 million. Success here could release funds for the council to use elsewhere, but, unfortunately, it appears that Wakefield has not so far felt able to put forward bids to the extent that one might expect, given the housing needs to which the hon. Gentleman referred. Over the past five years, Wakefield has attracted only £2·371 million, 3·1 per cent. of the regional total.
A further source of funding is the current energy efficiency initiative, which will provide up to £10 million in the next financial year and £50 million in the following one towards worthwhile schemes put forward by local authorities. My regional office has recently written to the authorities to invite bids.
It is also possible for an authority to utilise the useable proportion of its in-year and accumulated receipts, as it sees fit. In addition, it can make contributions to its capital spending programme from its revenue income. An obvious source of such income would be its rents, which, in the case of Wakefield, are somewhat below the current regional average.
One of the features of the new capital control system is that a proportion of all local authority receipts should be set aside against existing or future debts. It is right that some provision should be made out of the proceeds of sales of local authority assets for the debts incurred in their original acquisition or purchase. This limitation also gives Ministers the opportunity to take into account in the housing investment programme the receipts which authorities obtain in areas where housing needs are less pressing. Those resources can be recycled to areas, such as the north of England, where they are most needed.
The hon. Member eloquently set out his anxiety about homelessness in the Wakefield district. I can assure him

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that the Government, too, are anxious about homelessness. It is in the major cities, and especially in the pressure areas of London and the south-east, that homelessness presents the most serious difficulties.
None the less, I can understand councils elsewhere being worried about the problem of homelessness, especially where families with young children are involved. I applaud those councils who are prepared to use their expertise and their imagination in tackling it. I commend Wakefield's record in avoiding the need to house families in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. I know that Wakefield is keen to see more hostel accommodation provided and is prepared to work with the housing association movement to achieve that end. Nor is it only with hostels that housing associations can help. This year has seen the Housing Corporation's resources increase yet again; and they are expected to continue to do so for some time. My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning recently announced that the corporation's gross expenditure for 1993–94 is expected to exceed £2 billion, a 65 per cent. increase over the current year.
Local authorities have, for some time, been encouraged to adopt a more entrepreneurial and enabling role towards housing provision. With their ability to offer financial assistance to private landlords, including housing associations, and their capacity to assemble land for housing purposes, local authorities have an unrivalled opportunity to influence the future of housing in their area.
Housing associations are now even better placed than ever before to make a significant contribution to meeting the needs of the homeless. To do this they can obtain assistance from local authorities, in the form of cheap or free land or through grants of one sort or another, with funding from the Housing Corporation and from their own sources of private sector finance.
The Housing Corporation recently announced its intention that 50 per cent. of the general needs housing developments which it funds should be targeted to dealing with homelessness problems. Together, the housing
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association movement and well managed and go-ahead local housing authorities should be capable of filling any gap left by the main private rented and owner occupied sectors. In this respect, I commend Wakefield for the positive way in which it took on the task of supporting a housing association in maintaining former British Coal properties in productive use.
Another problem that Wakefield has consistently drawn to our attention is the condition of its private sector stock. There is no doubt that, although not facing the worst problems in the region, the council has to deal with some difficult problems. In this area, the new renovation grants system should be welcomed. The complexities and restrictions of the old system have been swept aside. A test of resources now helps to ensure that grants are targeted to those people most in need of assistance.
Wakefield has also expressed concern about the problems that the council faces because of the high demand for renovation grants which local authorities are under a duty to pay where an applicant is an owner-occupier living in unfit property. The council has applied to the Department for a supplementary credit approval to assist it in finding the resources to pay such grants. That bid, together with those from other authorities, is currently being assessed and a decision will be taken as soon as possible.
Wakefield is also at the forefront of activity in the new area renewal categories and should be applauded for its willingness to take on the task of preparing and declaring the Smawthorne area. It is worth noting here that the council received an undertaking from the Department to provide resource cover of up to £555,000 subject to the relevant works being undertaken.
I am pleased to see Wakefield's initiative in setting up its housing aid service, which will be of inestimable value to the public and to the council.
The opportunities for a committed local authority such as Wakefield to use its expertise should enable it to meet the needs of all those who must look for social rented accommodation in the area.

Scotch Whisky (Excise Duty)
1 pm
Mr. Bill Walker: The House will know that my interest in Scotch whisky is purely a constituency interest and that, as a teetotal Member of Parliament, I am motivated largely by my recognition of the fact that the Scotch whisky industry is Scotland's premier exporting industry. Unlike oil and gas, whisky is not finite. The barley, the grain and the water are all renewable. The skills and the knowledge of how to produce the whisky are passed on from generation to generation. If we husband the resources and maintain the quality, provided we do not foul the market, this marvellous wealth and job-creating product will continue for ever.
I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims), who is adviser to the Scotch Whisky Association; and I also welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), the Under-Secretary of State, to the Front Bench. I know that he, like me, has taken a long-standing interest in the well-being of the Scotch whisky industry. I have already made a contribution towards maintaining the quality. The Scotch Whisky Act 1988 was the result of my private Member's Bill. I now look to the Government to play their part to ensure that this wealth-creating product has a continuing European and worldwide growth share of the drinks market. That market is as much a fashion market, and taxation and local conditions can have a massive impact on spending patterns and habits.
When the Conservatives came to office in 1979, the Scotch whisky industry was in a parlous state. Stocks were high, distilleries were being closed and the bottling and blending plants were on short time. Sensible taxation policies changed all that and today, the industry is reopening distilleries, bottling and blending plants are busy and stocks are far more in balance. The industry thanks the Government for their sensible taxation policy.
I welcome the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. McKelvey) to the Opposition Front Bench, where he should have been years ago.
As a Conservative Member, I have to be an optimist. I am optimistic that Ministers will listen carefully to what I have to say and that, as in previous years, they will respond positively to my proposals. It is, after all, in their interests as well as in the interests of the people of Scotland that the Scotch whisky industry should continue to prosper. Why do I say that?
The Treasury benefits each year to the tune of more than £1,000 million, which is made up of £750 million in excise duty and about £250 million in value added tax. The contribution of Scotch to the Treasury is equivalent to almost £20 for every individual in the United Kingdom.
It is interesting to note that the United Kingdom is the second largest market in the world for Scotch whisky. That is important to us. However, in contrast to its overseas competitors, Scotch whisky is penalised in its own home market by an inequitable tax regime that discriminates against it and other spirits in favour of wine and beer.
It would be an understatement to say that the Scotch whisky industry was extremely disappointed by the 1990 Budget decision to widen the already substantial excise duty discrimination against spirits in favour of wine and beer. The industry and Scottish Members of all parties had
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understood that the Government accepted the justice of the case for seeking a change in the United Kingdom's structure of excise duties.
The Scotch whisky industry is no lame duck industry with special pleadings and in need of a prop. It is an export success industry which exports more than 90 per cent. of everything produced amounting to £1,500 million worth of exports. It is unquestionably one of the United Kingdom's winners. Consequently, it makes no sense to its export efforts to weaken its important home markets.
It is in the national interest to introduce a structure of excise duties under which all alcoholic drinks are taxed at the same rate per degree of alcohol. The industry and I recognise that such a system cannot be introduced overnight. However, could not the differentials in the duty on different drinks be phased in over a period of, say, three years?
Why do we need to act now? I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will think carefully before she replies and will accept the logic of the case. I ask her to bear in mind the compelling arguments for the reforms that I am proposing. I believe that it is in the national interest to end discrimination against an industry that makes such a major contribution to this country's economic prosperity through employment, corporate strength, Exchequer revenues and export earnings.
About 16,000 people are directly employed in the production of Scotch, and 95 per cent. of the jobs are in Scotland. Many of those jobs are in constituencies such as mine, a large rural constituency.
The industry also supports many other jobs in related sectors such as retailing, transport and tourism and in the many activities that supply inputs to production like bottling, distribution and marketing, which involve farming, engineering, glass production, construction, packaging, advertising and many other services.
Scotch whisky contributes to the corporate strength of the United Kingdom drinks industry as a core element of some of the United Kingdom's largest companies. Three of the four largest drinks companies in the world—Guinness, Allied Lyons and Grand Metropolitan—are British-owned, and more than 120 United Kingdom companies are producers or traders of Scotch whisky.
As I said earlier, the industry contributes more than £1,000 million to Exchequer revenues. I only wish that every other industry could contribute so handsomely to the Exchequer's coffers.
In the year to July 1990, Scotch exports were valued at more than £1,500 million. Scotch whisky is sold in every country that permits its import, and I wish that that could be said of all British products. In value terms, it is the United Kingdom's fifth largest manufacturing export, and it is the largest export to the important market of Japan, earning more than 5 per cent., of the total value of United Kingdom exports to that country. In that regard, I thank my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench for their magnificent efforts in recent years to improve the market in Japan.
Scotch exports make a major contribution to the United Kingdom's balance of trade. The trading account on alcoholic drinks products shows a trading surplus that is entirely due to Scotch. Indeed, 98 per cent. of our wine consumption is imported, producing an annual trading deficit of £760 million. Surprisingly—as a teetotaller, I was certainly surprised—we also have a deficit on trade in beer.

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Scotch whisky alone is responsible for turning a trading deficit of £867 million on other alcoholic drinks into an overall surplus in the United Kingdom's interest of over £400 million. The export earnings of Scotch per employee are £80,000, which is four times that of the engineering and manufacturing industries, eight times that produced by those in the food, drink and tobacco industries, and more than twice that produced by chemicals and man-made fibres.
In contrast to its export success, Scotch has faced intensive competition in its own domestic market in the United Kingdom, especially from imported wine. This is where excise duty really bites. Scotch whisky's share of domestic expenditure on alcoholic beverages is falling and has been falling for many years. A major contributory factor is that Scotch carries much higher excise duties in a market where the general level of excise duties is high by the standards of other countries. Domestic sales of Scotch are stagnant and have never recovered from the sharp falls of the early 1980s when there was an almost 18 per cent. drop over five years. In the first six months of 1990, home sales of Scotch were down by 2·5 per cent. compared with the same period last year.
The decline of Scotch and other spirits in the domestic market is associated with an increase in the share taken by wine. Beer's share of the total consumer expenditure has been stable for some time. The consumer of a typical glass measure of Scotch pays nearly double the excise duty of the consumer ordering a glass of wine or half a pint of beer. In that example, all consume the same volume of alcohol. It is no wonder that consumers and customers switch their expenditure away from spirits.
The tax structures of many member states of the European Community have the opposite effect to the structures of the United Kingdom. Of the six EEC states which have wine as their main product, five have no tax at all on their home product, and the sixth, France, imposes a duty which is equivalent to about 1p per litre. All six countries, except Greece with no alcohol duty, impose a duty on spirits, thus benefiting home production against imports. As a result, the present United Kingdom tax structure makes any future moves towards harmonisation or approximation much more difficult for Scotch whisky within the European Community.
I remind my hon. Friend that, for the United Kingdom alone among European Community countries, the spirits industry is of predominant significance. If we get it wrong and adversely affect the Scotch whisky industry, the political consequences for our party in Scotland cannot be overstated. We could be described almost as a unique species in Scotland. I tell people that I am a minority of a minority, being a Scottish Conservative Member of Parliament.
In a letter dated 20 July 1989 to my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mr. Forsyth), the Chief Secretary to the Treasury wrote:
"The existing duty system allows the Chancellor the opportunity to take account of changes in the economic conditions affecting each of the drinks industries in setting duty rates."
I only wish that the evidence supported that claim.
Wine, which is not a United Kingdom-based industry, is taking an increasing share of the United Kingdom's drinks market. As I said earlier, beer's share is static. Only spirits have experienced both a reduced market share and a decline in the real price of the product. It is not possible
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for the Exchequer to squeeze more excise duty out of the Scotch whisky industry, as it cannot sustain its present market share while facing competition from other cheaper drinks bearing a much lower rate of duty. I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood to the Front Bench. This shows the interest that Scotch whisky has for Scottish Members—of course, I mean the industry, not the product.
The 1988 family expenditure survey shows that beer and spirits drinkers have a similar income distribution, while wine drinkers are more concentrated in the high-income groups. That is a significant and important fact. I am saying in a roundabout way that those people can afford to pay more. If equity is the objective, taxes should be raised on wine relative to those on spirits and beer.
What are the social considerations? As I said, I am a teetotaller. I have campaigned actively on alcohol-related health problems, drink-driving and anti-social behaviour, including under-age drinking. I believe, as does the Royal College of Psychiatrists, that
"it is the alcohol content which matters—rather than the unique qualities of a particular drink. The widespread belief —that only spirits drinkers become alcoholics—is quite without foundation.'
I understand from a parliamentary answer that, in England and Wales, 90 per cent. of drink-related road accidents are caused by people drinking beer. Social considerations demand that all alcoholic drinks are treated equitably and there can be no justification for discriminating against spirits. After all, if someone is stopped while driving a car and is tested, the police are not interested in what he has been drinking; they are concerned with the alcohol content of the blood. That should be the same measure for taxation.
All the evidence suggests that, for social reasons, all drinks should be taxed at the same rate per degree of alcohol content. It is in the national interest that we should cease discriminating against Scotch whisky. It encourages imports of wine and has an adverse affect on the balance of trade. It encourages emulation by overseas Governments. Indeed, recently in Japan the director-general of the Scotch Whisky Association was invited to explain to the Ministry of Finance why the Japanese Government should not follow the United Kingdom Government's example and discriminate against Scotch whisky.
The Institute of Fiscal Studies recently recommended that all alcoholic drinks should be taxked at the same rate per degree of alcohol content. Therefore, it is not just the Scotch whisky industry. Scotch Whisky Association or me making these comments. The institute calculated—this pleases me no end—that equalising rates of duty per unit of alcohol at the present rate for spirits and the rates for all drinks would raise excise duty by 14 per cent. and that VAT revenue would increase by almost 3 per cent. To anyone who is interested in getting funds into the Government's coffers, that must be a good way of going about it, because it is an indirect tax, of which Conservative Members approve.
Another important benefit of levelling up taxes is that it would reduce wine imports. Using customs and excise drinks equation estimates of elasticity of demand for wine, the Institute of Fiscal Studies estimates that wine imports would fall by more than £200 million per annum. That could only be good for the balance of payments.

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Taxing all drinks at the same rate per unit of alcohol content would be administratively easy to operate. It would also improve United Kingdom employment prospects, reduce the distortion of consumer choice and discourage emulation of United Kingdom practices overseas. The time for tax reform is long overdue. There is no conceivable interest that provides any rational basis for continuing discrimination against the Scotch whisky industry.
I have made my contribution by ensuring that the quality and quantity of alcohol in Scotch cannot be diluted. I look now to the Government to take the measures necessary to create an environment and tax regime in which this industry—Scotland's premier exporting industry and one of the United Kingdom's main exporters—will continue to provide massive revenues for the Treasury, huge exports and, from a constituency point of view, continuing employment.
I welcome the opportunity to place on record my views about this important and fundamental industry in Scotland. It would not be overstating the case to say that Scotch is recognised worldwide as unique. It can be obtained from only one country in the world, and it is up to us to protect it.
Mr. Frank Dobson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am reluctant to iterrupt this important debate, but, as you will know, Mr. Speaker has ruled that Members of Parliament may not be denied access to Downing street. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) and I had arranged to present a letter setting out the concern of ourselves and others about the rundown state of the health service in London and, in particular, the problems at Great Ormond Street hospital for sick children. We had arranged to be there at 1 o'clock with a number of other people and we were denied access. We eventually discovered that we had been denied access not by the police, who are only doing the job that they have been asked to do, but by the Government's public relations managers, because they are waiting until it is convenient for the Prime Minister to be filmed receiving his Christmas turkey. Since Mr. Speaker has ruled that hon. Members may not be denied access to No. 10 Downing street, I should be grateful if you would take this up with the appropriate authorities.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): I was not aware that Mr. Speaker had so ruled, but I would not dream of questioning what the hon. Gentleman has said. No doubt his point will be drawn to the Prime Minister's attention.
While I am on my feet, I draw the House's attention to the fact that these half-hour Adjournment debates on the occasion of the Christmas Adjournment should be so arranged as to allow the Minister adequate time to reply. I regret that the Minister's time to reply to the debate has been curtailed.
1.22 pm
The Minister of State, Treasury (Mrs. Gillian Shephard): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) on initiating this debate on Scotch whisky at an appropriate and festive time of year.
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I congratulate him on being such an excellent advocate for a product that he does not even enjoy. I am in the same position as my hon. Friend, but, like him, I can appreciate that it is a fine, high-quality product of which we should all be proud.
Obviously, the Government fully recognise the valuable contribution made by the Scotch whisky industry to exports. The industry is to be congratulated on its magnificent achievement of exporting 85 per cent. of its total production, resulting in about 1·5 billion of income. It has emerged from the difficult years of the mid-1980s strengthened and invigorated largely, although not entirely—there has been Government help—by its own effort in marketing and targeting. I am delighted to note that some distilleries that had been mothballed for some years have successfully reopened.
The burden of my hon. Friend's debate has been the question of taxation of whisky but, in passing, I should like to mention some ways in which the Government should helped the Scotch whisky industry over the past 10 years.
It is fair to say that the duty ratio in relation to alcohol content between spirits and beer and wine has fallen from 2·8:1 to 1·7:1 and the tax on a normal bottle of whisky has fallen from some 80 per cent. of the retail price in 1980 to 66 per cent. today. Taking inflation into account during the period May 1979 to April 1990, the duty on spirits has fallen by some 27 per cent. in real terms, while that on beer has risen by 19 per cent. I understand my hon. Friend's concern about the interaction between the duty on wine and beer on the one hand and spirits on the other. I hope that he will accept that such movement as there has been has been positive and in favour of whisky.
My hon. Friend was right to mention his successful private Member's Bill, which is now the Scotch Whisky Act 1988. It enshrines the traditional method of producing Scotch whisky and its maturation in oak casks. He will accept that the Government took the lead in Brussels on the European Community spirits drinks regulations, which came into force last December and ensures that the name and quality of Scotch whisky is protected throughout the Community. The regulation defines the minimum alcoholic strength as 40 per cent. alcohol by volume and ensures that only whisky distilled in Scotland can use the name Scotch whisky.
The Government were instrumental in opening up the Japanese market and reducing the discriminatory duties against Scotch whisky there. We are continuing efforts to remove restrictions on imports of Scotch to Korea and Taiwan. Both markets have great potential. We are fully aware of the general concern to liberalise the Taiwan market for imported spirits and we give support wherever possible. We shall continue to co-operate with the Scotch Whisky Association in certification procedures to prevent counterfeiting and look-alikes.
My hon. Friend mentioned the 10 per cent. duty increase in the last Budget. I must point out that it was the first duty increase on spirits since 1985, in contrast to beer, wine and cider, the duty on which was increased in 1988. The duty on spirits in real terms has fallen by 27 per cent. in the past 10 years. I feel constrained to mention cider because I have Gaymers in my constituency and I want to go home safely at the end of the debate.
The burden of my hon. Friend's argument has been the question of unitary taxation. He argued that all alcoholic drinks should be taxed strictly according to their alcohol

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content. I have paid careful attention to his views. As he rightly says, we must not lose sight of the fact that the basic purpose of alcoholic drinks duties—sometimes it is overlooked, but not by my hon. Friend—is to raise revenue for the Government. In the past financial year, those duties brought in nearly £4·5 billion. To achieve that, successive Governments have set out to collect revenue from various drinks rather than from alcohol as such.
I was amused when my hon. Friend quoted our right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I am obliged to tell my hon. Friend that the present flexible structure allows my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take market and industrial factors into account. For example, sparkling wine, which is often regarded as a luxury product, has traditionally been taxed at a higher rate than still wine of the same alcoholic strength. Similarly, cider, which is of the same strength or stronger than average beer, is taxed at a lower rate. To link duties on the basis of alcoholic strength would limit the Chancellor's room for manoeuvre and produce a major upheaval in the market place.
I note that my hon. Friend suggests that time should be taken to look at this and that if such changes were considered they could be phased in over some years. I can assure him that those questions will be considered most carefully by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in the run-up to next year's Budget. My hon. Friend will not expect me to give any more undertakings now.
My hon. Friend mentioned the European Community. The Government's attitude to centrally imposed tax harmonisation is well known. Such harmonisation as is necessary should come about as a result of the operation of market forces. We have consistently said that member states should be free to set their own rates of duty, in the light of their own fiscal, social and other policies. I believe that my hon. Friend agrees, because part of his argument is that the Government should take into account the interests of the Scotch whisky industry in setting its own duty policies. His comments about the European Community will be taken into account when discussions get under way.
I assure my hon. Friend that I listened most carefully to his remarks, which were preceded by my meeting with the Scotch Whisky Association. Clearly that industry is vital to Scotland, and I assure my hon. Friend that the Government will ensure that, just as we have protected its interests in the past, we shall do so in future.

A77 and M77, Ayrshire
1.30 pm
Mr. William McKelvey: I am grateful for this opportunity to address the House, and perhaps I should explain that my elevation to the Opposition Dispatch Box was self-appointed. It is not the first time that that has happened. I took a leaf out of the book of Mr. Deputy Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster, Central (Mr. Walker), who did the same thing in 1971—and look how he got on.
Perhaps I may first comment that the debate we have just had on the Scotch whisky industry was important for the whole of Scotland. I value greatly the work of the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) in respect of that industry, because I have a big constituency interest in it—and I enjoy a dram.
This debate concerns the Ayr road route to the A77 and M77 link, and the decline that will occur in Ayrshire's economy if that project is not put back on schedule and started at the proper time in 1991. I shall summarise the economic issues associated with the A77 extension, concentrating on four main areas. They are the regional perspective, the Ayrshire perspective, the reasons for the 30-month delay in commencing that project and the risk of further slippage if the road building programme is in any way delayed.
The regional perspective and the economic arguments for immediate commencement of the Ayr route are multifactorial, but it is possible to isolate the key and undisputed reason for elevating the Ayr road route to the top of both the Strathclyde regional council and Scottish Development Council road building programmes. There is no doubt that the scheme offers the highest rate of return of all the strategic road schemes in the trunk road programme.
In the cost-benefit analysis undertaken by the Scottish Development Department, the Ayr route recorded a present net value of benefits totalling £236 million on low traffic growth predictions and of £462 million on high traffic growth predictions. A breakdown of the total benefit indicates an evaluation of time savings ranging between £278 million and £500 million, and accident cost savings of between 10·5 million and £14·6 million—to say nothing of the anxiety and distress that can be alleviated by reducing accidents.
The regional economic case was summarised succinctly in the region's application for European regional development funding, which cites the following criteria for progressing the route:
"The Ayr road route would be a major improvement to the strategic road network within the Strathclyde region. It would provide a bypass through heavily congested routes to the south side of Glasgow, and has a vital role in improving links between Glasgow and Ayrshire. It would provide a new fast route between Glasgow and the Ayrshire towns of Ayr, Prestwick, Irving—via the A71, Kilmarnock, and the external communications links of Prestwick airport and Stranraer. It would reduce excess costs to markets served by Prestwick airport and would offer major benefits to Ayrshire in linking it firmly to the national Scottish road network. Improved access to and egress from Ayrshire would open up the potential for inward investment and would encourage small to medium sized enterprise development by opening up new areas, and should have a positive impact on tourism and leisure development."
Thus, the region has proposed a sound economic case to support the Ayr road route in terms of the cost-benefit

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analysis; improvement of the regional strategic road network; strengthening of transport links of the metropolitan heart; improvement of external communication links; and the widening of economic development opportunities for Ayrshire. Those are all important issues at a time when we hear that the recession, which is now biting in England, is likely to start in Scotland.
From a local, Ayrshire, perspective, the economic arguments can be developed even further by examining the benefits that the extension and upgrading of the Ayr road route will have on the existing industrial and commercial base. The savings in anticipated journey times for industry occasioned by the upgrading and the extension of the A77 have been estimated at between 35 and 47 per cent. in off-peak conditions and between 40 and 53 per cent. during peak conditions.
Clearly, the impact that that will have transportation and distribution costs, lead times, improved freight movement times, local supply sourcing, delivery times and inventories will be considerable. From a human resource perspective, the shorter commuting times will widen the scope for Ayrshire firms to draw from the professional and skilled labour pool offered by the city of Glasgow.
The rapid upgrading and extension of the Ayr route is critical to remove the current relative remoteness of Ayrshire from the national motorway network. It will also improve the competitiveness of firms that are already established there.
In recent years, much has been made of the opportunities that are to be derived from the removal of trade barriers in Europe. We are constantly reminded by the Government and asked whether we are ready for the opportunities of 1992, when those barriers are removed. Unless Ayrshire benefits from an increase in infrastructural investment, we shall be on the periphery—or even beyond—of European markets. Already there is a perceived danger that the peripheralisation associated with the future of the rail network, and an anticipation that the east coast mainline will become the preferred rail route south to London, and to continental Europe for freight services, will be intensified if strategic planning and implementation of an improved road infrastructure is not adhered to, on time, in Ayrshire. We have a right to demand that that scenario is avoided at all costs.
I know that the Minister is familiar with the arguments presented thus far, and I should like to consider the reasons why we now face a further delay of 30 months in the programming of a road, which was originally proposed in 1965, and was probably started by the Romans, if they got to that area.
Both the regional council and the Scottish Office accept and indeed promote the economic justification for the scheme and both have professed a commitment to it. Why, then, is there a 30-month delay? Two weeks ago the new Secretary of State for Scotland announced a £9 million cut in spending on Scotland's roads and transport programme for 1991–92. Clearly, that will substantiate the region's claim that the delay has been occasioned entirely by inadequate total capital allocations.
However, it is on the issue of allocation of resources between competing schemes that the region's commitment to the progression of the Ayr road must be questioned closely. Indeed, in transportation policy and programming
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procedures, the region set a precedent during the 1990–95 cycle by proposing a capital programme comprising its base programme, and a new departure—to add a supplementary programme of expenditure which consisted of additional expenditure identified by the director of roads, over and above that contained in the 1990–95 financial plan.
The director of roads' view is that this expenditure has a higher priority than some schemes contained in the base programme—and evidently the Ayr road route. The rationale for affording the supplementary programme greater priority than named schemes within the base programme has to be questioned closely. In case the Minister is unfamiliar with the supplementary expenditure programme, it is categorised as follows:
"M8 Pavement Reconstruction Renfrew/Baillieston
M8 Upgrading of Capacity

(a) Drumbeck Connection Improvement

(b) Charing Cross-East of Townhead

Bridge Assessment/Strengthening Replacement, Bridge Refurbishment, Car Park Refurbishment, Town Centre Programme, Public Transport Development Study.
That is the priority given by Strathclyde region to its programme. We shall have to go there and question its representatives very closely. To be fair, I do not think that it gave adequate or, indeed, any consideration to the problems that would face Ayrshire once the priorities were changed.
The prioritisation of expenditure, as well as the capital allocation aspect, has led to the delay in the extension of the upgrading of the A77. A report by the region's chief executive, entitled "Transport Strategy and Capital Programme Review", dated August 1989, has warned:
"Although the TPP Sub-Committee has yet to consider these supplementary bids in detail, it is clear at this stage that if the Council's capital allocations are not increased substantially, then it will be necessary to delay and/or delete a number of named schemes included in the … Programme".
The consequential delay for Ayrshire goes further than the A77. In addition to that delay, the A71 improvement at East Holmes has been delayed by 24 months; the Dalry bypass on the A737 has been delayed by 23 months; Doon Bridge, Dalmellington B741 has been delayed by 12 months; the Irvine south approach road bridge has been delayed by 24 months; the Newmilns relief road A71 has been delayed by 24 months; and the Dairy realignment has been delayed by eight months.
Let us compare the cost of the supplementary programme—£73 million—with the total cost of the Ayr road route, which is some £55 million. The region's claim that the delay is a direct consequence of inadequate capital allocations from central Government becomes somewhat less convincing in the light of those figures. Nevertheless, it has a case. The Secretary of State for Scotland has announced a £9 million cut in the road programme for 1991–92; two days before, the former Secretary of State —now Secretary of State for Transport—was able to announce £1 billion additional expenditure on the M25, which is more than we have spent on our roads in Scotland for a decade.
Let us address the question why the director of roads in Strathclyde region has prioritised the supplementary expenditure programme—a prioritisation that was subsequently ratified by the transportation TPP sub-committee, full committee and full council by acceptance of proposed minimum and priority programmes. According to the evaluation, capacity enhancement, repairs to the M8 through Glasgow and, indeed, work on

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the bridge refurbishment and assessment have a greater call on available resources than the Ayr road route and other schemes that are now subject to delay. Obviously, we all consider the work to be done on the bridge essential. We should be finding a way of obtaining additional money, either from the Chancellor of the Exchequer or from Europe.
Although we in Ayrshire accept that there will always be interests competing for capital allocations, we cannot afford to accept that, merely for that reason, the Ayr road route—the largest single scheme in the capital programme, which was as yet uncommitted—should be targeted for a further 30-month delay. The introduction of a supplementary programme, described in the document as
"containing those elements of expenditure felt to be necessary but which cannot all be accommodated within present indications of available resources",
and the elevation of that programme to the detriment of the Ayr road route, merit further explanation from the region. It will be pressed for that information.
On 9 December, Kilmarnock and Loudoun district council organised a meeting of all Ayrshire district authorities plus the district of Eastwood. Eastwood has a very strong claim for the upgrading of the road, because of the environmental difficulties that it creates with heavy traffic. For Ayrshire authorities to agree on anything is unique, but for the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), other Members of Parliament, councillors and representatives of trade and industry to be of one mind underlines the importance of Ayrshire's unanimity. We agreed that the civic heads of all the authorities should meet Charlie Grey and Malcolm Waugh to press our case for reconsideration of the matter by Strathclyde regional council.
The British Road Federation kindly wrote to me and said that it was delighted to note that this debate was to be held. Richard Diment, the deputy director, commissioned a report from Transport Action Scotland. I have here the brief prepared by Maureen Orde. Another excellent brief was prepared for me by Miss Jacqueline Cullen, the economic development officer of Kilmarnock. I congratulate her on its contents.
Transport Action Scotland represents all types of road users, including freight-carrying organisations. It has been worried for a long time about the shortcomings of the road system serving Ayrshire. The A77 and the A78 are the most important trunk routes. They link the area to Glasgow and the north. The A76/A75 forms the main trunk route south from Ayrshire to the A74/M74. It is particularly concerned about the delay in implementing the A77 road route, despite the Secretary of State's approval for the scheme, following the public inquiry in 1988.
The existing A77 on the south side of Glasgow is completely inadequate for the huge amount of traffic that it is forced to carry. The problems are exacerbated when drivers reach those sections of the road that are nearest the city centre. Traffic volumes range from 15,500 vehicles a day south of Newton Mearns to as many as 27,500 vehicles a day on the section south of Nether Auldhouse road, which gives access to the M77 at Dumbreck junction. That colossal volume of traffic has to go through the constituency of the hon. Member for Eastwood before it reaches the motorway. The effect on the environment is completely unacceptable.
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I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Eastwood is nodding. I am grateful for his support, although I realise that his ministerial responsibilities prevent him from speaking today. I have been grateful for his support in the past. I shall hope that I continue to have his support—if not from the Dispatch Box, perhaps spiritually.
The road network in Ayrshire is of the utmost importance. Strathclyde regional council advised us to meet the Minister and ask him for more money. I am sure that the Minister realises that early in the new year we shall apply to him for more money. I hope that he will provide us with the opportunity to press the case further if, by now, he has not fully understood the importance of the Ayrshire road route to the economy of the west of Scotland.
1.48 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton): I congratulate the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. McKelvey) on his elevation to the Opposition Front Bench for this important debate and on the able and persuasive way in which he has presented the case on behalf of Kilmarnock and Loudoun.
I fully agree with the hon. Member that the improvement of road links between Glasgow and south-west Scotland should have high priority. At present, traffic between Glasgow and Kilmarnock encounters a bottleneck between the M8 and the start of the four-lane A77 at Newton Mearns. I am well aware, from the representations that have been made to me by the hon. Member and by my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) and from visiting both Kilmarnock and Eastwood, of the delays that can occur. I fully appreciate the costs of these delays.
It may be helpful if I consider first the strategic significance of the Ayr road route scheme—that is, the link proposed between the end of the M77 spur at Dumbreck, off the M8 in Glasgow—the north end of the proposed road—and the A77 at Malletsheugh south of Newton Mearns.
The major emphasis of the Scottish Office's trunk road programme is to improve the key inter-urban roads in Scotland. Our priorities are to complete the central Scotland motorway network and to press ahead with the upgrading of the A74 to motorway. Funding for trunk roads has been increased substantially to meet those objectives. Two years ago, we spent £90 million on new trunk road construction. This year, we have allocated £130 million. The overall total is £200 million, but, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, a considerable portion must be spent on road safety, on strengthening bridges and on similar activities. The results of that increase in expenditure are clear. Two years ago, we had no motorway schemes in progress. Next year, we shall have six major schemes under construction, all in the central belt of Scotland.
A key to our progress has been our partnership with Strathclyde regional council. It is vital that the trunk and key principal road network in and around Glasgow is upgraded coherently. The jointly funded M80 Stepps bypass is now under construction. Tenders have been invited for a design-and-construct contract for the jointly funded M8 St. James interchange. We have jointly promoted the Ayr road route through a public local inquiry.

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I am pleased to repeat to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun that the emphasis that we place on the completion of the central Scotland motorway network includes high priority for the construction of the Ayr road route. This will provide an important strategic link in the network. Indeed, when complete, there will be continuous motorway, dual-carriageway and single four-lane carriageway link to Ayr from Edinburgh and Glasgow.
The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood will be interested in the two longer-term improvements that are planned for the trunk road south of Malletsheugh. These will upgrade the remaining four-lane single-carriageway section of the road to dual carriageway. The necessary design work and statutory procedures for the schemes are being progressed by Strathclyde regional council, which is acting as our agents for the project. Our programme is to complete the preparatory work for the section between Fenwick and the B764 Eaglesham road during 1992. The remaining length from the B764 to Malletsheugh is expected to be ready during the following year. Thereafter, start dates will be decided on the basis of the available resources and priorities at the time. Final decisions on starts are taken annually each March for the year ahead.
We recognise the importance of all these schemes. In considering allocations to Strathclyde regional council, therefore, and in drawing up the trunk road programme, we have given high priority to the funding necessary to construct the new Ayr road route.
The new road from Dumbreck to Malletsheugh comes in two sections. First, within the Glasgow city boundary —from the end of the M77 to Darnley—the new road would be a local road constructed by Strathclyde regional council. Outside the city boundary, from Darnley southwards to Malletsheugh, the new link would be a trunk road. However, the two sections of the road have to be co-ordinated. It would make no sense for one section of the road to end in the middle of a field at Darnley, without the other to meet it.
Within Glasgow, and on the outskirts of the city, the A77 is mainly single carriageway. It carries large volumes of local, long-distance and commuter traffic. I am aware that current volumes of traffic in south-west Glasgow cause extensive congestion for considerable periods of the day. The new road will provide substantial benefits to through traffic by reducing delays, will benefit local traffic by easing congestion and will improve road safety by reducing road-user conflicts. The scheme benefits are sufficient to provide, as the hon. Gentleman rightly suggested, a high economic return on investment.
The Scottish Office has said that it will be prepared to proceed with the trunk road section when Strathclyde regional council constructs the new local road. Indeed, as the greater part of the route is Strathclyde's, we cannot move on the trunk road portion until it has let contracts. The key, therefore, to whether the new route proceeds is its willingness to devote resources to its part of the new link.
With that point in mind, in our capital allocations to Strathclyde regional council for 1990–91, we added £5·2 million to the provisional figure previously notified. Strathclyde's allocation was therefore increased to £73·6 million. That increase included £2·7 million on the
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assumption, which was notified to the council, that work on the Ayr road route would begin. At that time, Strathclyde's financial plan showed that only £28·6 million of its planned expenditure was legally committed. The regional council therefore had considerable flexibility, with the balance, £45 million, being available to accommodate the rest of its programme, including the Ayr road route.
However, when we make allocations to local roads authorities, taking into account the priorities that those authorities have stated in their transport policies and programmes, documents and plans, we do not give projects specific consent. In other words, the authority can, within the allocation announced, use its spending consents as it sees fit.
The reasoning behind that approach is clear. It is for regional authorities to determine their relative priorities for investment in their area. We believe that it is for them to judge the most pressing local priorities. If one likes, that is local democracy at work.
Phase 1A of the Ayr road route from Dumbreck road to Barrhead road was programmed to start in March 1991. Phase 1B from Barrhead road to the city boundary was programmed to start in March 1992. Both parts—a total of 5·5 km—were due to finish in 1994. At its meeting on 23 October 1990, Strathclyde region's transport policies and programmes sub-committee considered options for delaying the work by 18, 30 or 42 months. It decided to recommend that work on the Ayr road route should be delayed by 30 months. That decision was confirmed by the full roads and transportation committee on 1 November 1990. The decision stems from a programme review carried out by Strathclyde roads department. The council decided that, to take account of what it saw as the wider needs of the region, it was necessary to delay the start of the Ayr road route.
Whether we like it or not, if we add together the roads and transport programmes which all Scottish authorities would like to undertake, the total requirement for capital consent in any one year would substantially exceed the amounts that can be made available. However, Strathclyde's allocation for roads and transport for 1990–91 is 45 per cent. of the Scottish total. It is the highest allocation per local road length of all mainland authorities. It is £5,600 per local road kilometre, compared with the national average of £3,200. Also, although Strathclyde has a high population density, its level of expenditure per head of population is equal to the national average and is substantially higher than for other central belt authorities.
I accept that Strathclyde has to make choices within the resources allocated to it, but I believe that we have treated Strathclyde generously. A start should, therefore, be possible on the Ayr road route if the council deploys the funds available on schemes that were at the centre of the emphasis that the council made in preparing its bid to the Scottish Office.
I shall not respond in detail to what the hon. Gentleman said about the advantages of the route for inward investment because those advantages are self-evident. There is no doubt that that view is shared by Locate in Scotland and by the Scottish Development Agency.
Strathclyde's decision to delay the Ayr road route works is most unfortunate. To return to road funding, decisions on final allocations for 1991–92 will not be taken until about February. But it is possible, given the council's decisions this year, that the relatively favourable treatment

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that we have given Strathclyde on capital allocations will have to be reappraised. A reappraisal will be needed if the council is deploying funds on schemes which were not central to the priorities put to us. Those comments do not necessarily imply that there will be a reduction in Strathclyde's allocation next year. We shall examine carefully the council's latest financial plan and its reviewed priorities, including its other major schemes. We shall then determine final allocations for next and future years within the overall amounts available for Scotland.
The hon. Gentleman was absolutely right to emphasise the importance of the road for jobs. As he knows, the SDA identified the Bringan site at Kilmarnock as a potential high-amenity site which could be marketed on a time scale to fit with the roads improvement programme. I urge that the region take that fact fully into account.
Road safety is also relevant. We attach the highest importance to that and I must point out that the accident rate on the A77 between Glasgow and Ayr is not exceptionally high by comparison with that on other similar roads. However, we aim to reduce accidents on all roads by one third by the year 2000. We are aware that the number of fatal and of serious accidents on the A77 is a cause for serious concern, so the construction of the Ayr road route would be a major step forward in improving road safety on that important route.
I repeat the advice that I have given to the hon. Gentleman on our previous meetings. He and his constituents should address their representations to Strathclyde regional council as the key decision on when the Ayr road route proceeds is the council's. We are very disappointed that the council has decided not to begin the strategic work now. However, we believe that the council could start work on the northern part of the new road in 1991–92. We should warmly welcome a decision on those lines by the council.

Vietnamese Children (Hong Kong)
2 pm
Sir Philip Goodhart: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise once again at Christmas time the subject of the Vietnamese boat people in Hong Kong. In December 1989, we had a full debate on the boat people in which I was able to take part. In December 1988 and in December 1987, I was able to raise the issue in the regular pre-Christmas debate. Sadly, the problem still troubles our conscience at this time of year. I am grateful for the support of my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) and for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims), who know the problem well.
At Christmas time, we should be especially conscious of those for whom there is, metaphorically, no room at the inn. We should also be especially concerned about young children in need of care and comfort. Sadly, however, this season will once again be a bleak time for the many thousands of young children locked up in the detention camps of Hong Kong, for which we in the House are ultimately responsible.
Over Christmas, many thousands of young Vietnamese children will catch a glimpse of the outside world only through thick coils of barbed wire. They will play as best they can on crowded cement yards in which they have spent every day of the past year. Some children in the camps are lucky if they can walk on grass or touch a flower on one day in the whole year. Their regular home will be shacks 30 m long by 9 m wide, shared by 300 adults and children.
The minimum guidelines set by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees state that every adult or child should have living space of at least 3·5 sq m. At the Whitehead and High Island detention centres, which hold almost 30,000 boat people, the living space is about 1 sq yd per person. That means that three families will live on top of each other in tiered bunks. It means that home for a husband, a wife and two children will be a strip of plywood measuring 8 ft by 6 ft, with one family living 3 ft above their heads and another family living 3 ft below them. I am ashamed that we should make families live in such conditions.
We require men, women and children to live in such conditions as a by-product of a policy which has been tacitly approved by the House whereby we seek to stop a flood of people desperately seeking a haven from political and economic repression. We know, and the people of Hong Kong know, that a quarter of the 60 million inhabitants of Vietnam would emigrate if they could. Indeed, more than a million have left Vietnam in the past 12 years, and 800,000 have found new homes in the United States. To stop that vast potential flow of people trying to escape from political repression and abject poverty, we had to erect effective and unpleasant barriers.
There are two prongs to such a policy. On the one hand, we say that all new arrivals in Hong Kong from Vietnam must face a fair, but rigorous, screening process to establish whether they are genuine political refugees rather than economic migrants. We also make conditions tough for those who have been screened out and denied refugee status, as well as tough for those waiting to be screened. Our policy of being deliberately unpleasant to those fleeing

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from Vietnam reached an unhappy climax earlier this year when a planeload of protesting boat people were forcibly deported to Vietnam.
I acknowledge that the policy has had its successes. The flow of boat people from north Vietnam has dropped dramatically since that single act of forced repatriation. Perhaps that reduction was caused by news of the repatriation. However, the fall has been so steep—from 2,000 boat people per month from north Vietnam to 100 per month—that it seems more probable that the drop is the result of a change of policy by the Vietnamese and mainland Chinese Governments.
The Foreign Office has reached an agreement with the Vietnamese authorities which provides for easier repatriation of those boat people who do not protest too much. In some ways, that is a typical Foreign Office agreement, in that it reassures Vietnamese symathisers like me that there will not be forced repatriation, while it encourages anti-Vietnamese politicians in Hong Kong to believe that there will be.
At the same time, the policy of making conditions intolerably uncomfortable is supposed to persuade people who have been screened out and denied refugee status to return to Vietnam voluntarily. In the first nine months of this year, 3,500 people returned voluntarily. That is a far higher figure than I had expected 12 months ago. The authorities in Hong Kong, and Foreign Office Ministers, will claim that the policy is working, that the number of refugees from north Vietnam has been cut dramatically and that the number of boat people returning voluntarily to Vietnam is higher than we had reason to believe.
However, that policy is based on the hope that economic and political conditions in Vietnam will improve and that the repressive nature of the Vietnamese communist Government will be relaxed still further. Unfortunately, in recent weeks Vietnam seems to have been going backwards rather than of forwards. A year ago, inflation in Vietnam seemed to be under control and the Government there appeared to be adopting a more liberal attitude politically and economically.
In the summer of 1989, I met the Vietnamese Foreign Minister, a veteran hard-line communist, who at that time sounded like a member of the "No Turning Back" group with his buoyant enthusiasm for market forces as a cure for inflation. That seemed to be working, but inflation is, alas, now rising sharply once more and the economic liberals have given way to communist hard-liners. Other conditions are also deteriorating. Soviet aid has disappeared. Fertilisers are in short supply in Vietnam. Oil prices are rocketing and unemployment is growing. The foreign currency earnings of Vietnamese guest workers in eastern Europe and the Soviet Union have disappeared.
At the same time, political repression, especially in the more relaxed south, seems to be intensifying. I note that, although the number of boat people coming from North Vietnam has fallen dramatically in the past few months, the number from south Vietnam has trebled in the same period. Many of the thousands of south Vietnamese boat people now arriving—most are ethnic Chinese—are confident that they will be given refugee status. Postal communications between Vietnam and the detention camps in Hong Kong are surprisingly good. It seems wholly unlikely that many detainees will agree to go back
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in the face of genuine fear of famine and hunger. I also fear that the economic and political repression in Vietnam could lead to a fresh wave of desperate people taking to their boats. If that happens, the British Government must be prepared to step in directly.
The finances of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in Hong Kong are in a mess. When I was last there a few weeks ago, UNHCR owed the Hong Kong Administration more than 100 million Hong Kong dollars, but sadly some countries specifically exclude Hong Kong from their UNHCR contributions on the grounds that Hong Kong is rich. The politicians in Hong Kong, some of whom will be facing elections soon, are all too likely to want to cut the amount of money spent on the boat people. If there is a new exodus, the British Government have an obligation to step in with fresh help.
So, what can be done? I shall comment on three areas—screening, accommodation and education. First, there has been some improvement since I referred to the screening process last year. Of course, it is not perfect and there have been bad cases, such as the 111 boat people who were recently freed on a writ of habeas corpus and who have now been given refugee status. Clearly, they should never have been treated as they were. That episode has had a happy ending, however, and I am satisfied that the bulk of the boat people have received a far more thorough screening than most would-be refugees seeking asylum in other countries.
However, I am not at all happy about the screening of the unaccompanied children in the camps. Depending how one defines the words "unaccompanied" and "children", there are between 2,000 and 4,000 unaccompanied children in the Hong Kong camps. I am sure that their screening is carried out humanely, but it takes an extraordinarily long time. There is the bureaucracy of the Hong Kong Administration, meshing with the bureaucracy of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. One then has to deal with the even more inefficient bureaucrats in Vietnam.
If the present rate is maintained, unaccompanied children may languish for years in the overcrowded detention camps. When I was last in Hong Kong, about 40 unaccompanied children were dealt with per month. That cannot be sensible of humane. I ask the Minister to look again at the special screening arrangements for those children. In view of the deteriorating situation in Vietnam, I hope that far more can be resettled in the West.
Secondly, I hope that all the unaccompanied children, and many of the families, can be moved from closed detention camps to open centres where they are not kept in prison-like conditions. When I was in Hong Kong this autumn, I was impressed by the Pillar Point open centre, which is run by the non-profit-making firm, Hong Kong Housing Services for Refugees Ltd. Pillar point now houses 5,000 people who have been given refugee status. All those refugees will be rehoused in the west sooner or later. Many have jobs in the still-thriving Hong Kong economy. Rent is charged at 100 Hong Kong dollars per month per room. Accommodation is sparse but adequate. In place of the scores of wardens with jangling keys, who are an inevitable part of the scene at High Island and Whitehead closed camps, there is an administrative staff of fewer than 20.
When it comes to looking after refugees, privatisation works. I am glad that there are plans for that non-profit-making private company to run the new Tai A

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Chau detention centre being built on the Soko islands. That should give hundreds, if not thousands, of children the opportunity to lead a more normal life. I hope that the Chi Ma Wan closed centre—also on an isolated island many miles from the city—can also be privatised and opened up.
I accept, with reluctance, the necessity for some closed camps, where conditions are austere, but as the ominous situation in Vietnam means that only a minority of people will be willing to return in the immediate future, we must take urgent action to ensure that children and young people are treated humanely.
Thirdly, I note that the Vietnamese, like the Chinese, are hungry for educations. I salute the work that the Save the Children Fund and other voluntary bodies are doing to provide playgrounds for the younger children. I note that considerable efforts are being made by the authorities to provide Vietnamese education, with an improved curriculum, for children of school age, but the effort seems to have a patchy impact and I hope that the Hong Kong Administration will feel able to increase the resources spent on the boat people's skills. A little money spent judiciously on educating those children should not be begrudged.
When I visited Pillar Point refugee camp recently, I was depressed to hear that the UNHCR had cut out all adult education, particularly the teaching of English. We know that the thousands of adults and children there will eventually be resettled in the west, almost certainly in English-speaking countries. It seems folly, therefore, not to make an effort to teach those people English while they are waiting for resettlement. I have appealed through the American press to Vietnamese organisations in America to fund that work, but ultimately the responsibility for this and for life in all the camps rests with us.
The people who run these camps on our behalf are generally kind and humane, but as Christmas approaches we should not tolerantly accept a system which leaves a child, or a man or woman, with 1 sq yd of living space. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development announced an extra £5 million for famine relief in Ethiopia and the Sudan, and I welcome that. I accept that the British taxpayer cannot meet all demands, but we have a particular responsibility to help those whom we have deliberately locked up.
2.18 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Sir P. Goodhart) for once again raising the important issue of the plight of Vietnamese children in the boat people's camps in Hong Kong. I know that the House will be pleased to welcome my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) and for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims), who have taken a great interest in this subject.
The debate provides an opportunity to review recent developments in our efforts to find a humane and lasting solution to the problems posed for Hong Kong by the large numbers of boat people there and by those who still continue to arrive—although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham said, fortunately in rather reduced numbers—for it is only through a lasting solution that a stable future for the children in those camps can be secured.
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I pay tribute to the Hong Kong authorities, who, despite preoccupations with their own future during a time of considerable uncertainty, have continue to provide a safe haven for the Vietnamese asylum seekers. As we have been able to say for over 11 years now, no Vietnamese has ever been turned away. Hong Kong's humanitarian record is one of which to be proud, but I remind the House that last year Hong Kong coped with the arrival of more than 34,000 people, in addition to the 18,000 who arrived in the previous year.
The cornerstone of our concern is that genuine refugees should continue to enjoy protection and that a new home for them should be found in the west. The corollary is that those who are not refugees should return to their country of origin either to rebuild their lives in their home cities or villages or, if they are intent on leaving, to migrate through normal emigration channels. It is against that background that the policy for dealing with the Vietnamese boat people in Hong Kong and south-east Asia has evolved.
Screening was introduced in Hong Kong in 1988 with the co-operation of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham has been good enough to say that it is a thorough process. The procedures in Hong Kong have undergone some changes over the past 30 months, and I am confident that they are fair and well adapted to their main objective, which is to ensure that no one facing the prospect of return to Vietnam need fear persecution at the hands of the Vietnamese authorities.
Screening selects those whose fear of persecution in Vietnam is well founded. My hon. Friend referred to the agreement that the Foreign Office has concluded with Vietnam, and we have sought to obtain from the Vietnamese authorities specific undertakings that nobody who returns will be punished for having left. I am happy to say that the Vietnamese have honoured that. More than 6,000 people have returned to Vietnam from Hong Kong since March 1989, and their conditions have been monitored by the UNHCR and the British embassy. Not a single incident of persecution or mistreatment of those who have returned has yet been recorded.
Nevertheless, one can understand the argument that it would be hard-hearted to send people back to Vietnam without offering them any help to rebuild their lives. Our policy is far from hard-hearted, for the following reasons. The UNHCR has been providing reintegration assistance to which we have contributed. In addition, last May we announced a contribution of £1 million of aid for the areas of Vietnam from which the boat people originate. Perhaps most significantly, at our instigation, the European Community proposed in July to set up a major repatriation and reintegration assistance programme for returning Vietnamese. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham may have seen an announcement in the press stating that that is starting with a pilot project of some 10 million ecu.
Therefore, returning Vietnamese can now enjoy the prospect of generous financial support and a real opportunity to build their own future. There is no prospect that the international community will change its mind and resettle Vietnamese who are not refugees. Yet, sadly, pamphlets, some of which have originated in the United States of America, have circulated in the camps urging people to hang on in the expectation of change.
Mr. Jim Lester: The basis of the economy in Vietnam could be changed if we and the United States recognised Vietnam and normalised relations. In that way, the many people who want to reinvest in Vietnam and its economy could do so, and the future of the Vietnamese people would be secure in their own country rather than their having to leave. That would be more helpful than the policy that my hon. Friend the Minister has just described.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point, and certainly it will be considered. However, it is going wide of the debate.
The pamphlets are appallingly irresponsible. They prolong to no purpose the detention of men, women and children at a time when the wherewithal exists for them to start a new life back in the communities which they left.
In the few minutes left to me, I should like to comment on the main subjects of the debate. If the ultimately hopeless period of waiting in the camps in Hong Kong is hard on adults, it is even harder on children. There are some 16,500 children under the age of 16 in Hong Kong, and special provision is made for them. They have special dietary scales and are provided with supplementary feeding to ensure that they are well nourished. Medical services, including the same free immunisation service for all babies and children as is provided for all Hong Kong children, are available in every centre. Any child requiring specialist treatment or hospitalisation is sent to outside hospitals, and arrangements are made for the parents to visit regularly.
During the 1989 influx many of the facilities provided for children had to make way for basic accommodation. However, as a result of the improvements this year, conditions are now much better. Education programmes include pre-school, primary and secondary levels. There is a library in each centre and access to educational videos is available to all. My hon. Friend commented on education for these children. Curricula taught in the detention centres are modelled on curricula taught in Vietnam. If more resources could be found, the quality of education would be improved, and we shall give some thought to that. English is taught in the camps to refugees to help them prepare for resettlement and to non-refugees. For the latter, the emphasis must be on Vietnamese because they will be returning to Vietnam.
The camp environment is far from ideal for children. There are play areas and open spaces with play equipment where possible. Donations of toys and gifts, especially at Christmas time, are distributed. Recreational programmes, including outings and excursions, are organised in co-operation with voluntary agencies.
My hon. Friend spoke of the Tai A Chau and the Chi Ma Wan camps. We believe that children are best cared for by responsible adults—their parents, adult relatives or temporary foster parents. Children inevitably tend to be
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spread throughout the camps. Tai A Chau is to be used as a camp for southerners. Consistent with that policy, the Hong Kong authorities intend to move as many children and unaccompanied minors as possible to Tai A Chau when the camp opens early next year. I am happy to say that the arrangements at Chi Ma Wan are being reviewed. We shall consider including families in that camp.
My hon. Friend was particularly concerned about unaccompanied children, of whom there are estimated to be 2,000 or more. Special committees responsible for them must be created in each country of first asylum. The committee in Hong Kong has operated since 19 April. It is charged with making a recommendation to the Hong Kong Government. So far, 663 cases have been submitted to the committee, which has reached a decision on 116 of them. Of those, 78 have been recommended for repatriation and 38 for resettlement.
My hon. Friend expressed concern at the committee's slow rate of progress. We and the Hong Kong Government share that concern and have urged the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees' office in Hong Kong to speed up the committee's work.
Hong Kong has some 12,000 people who have been determined not to be refugees. They are no different from any other illegal immigrants—except that, inevitably because of the emotive history of the boat people and the Vietnam war, their deportation is a matter of contention. It is not fair to expect Hong Kong to continue to provide a temporary resting place. Nor is it fair to the people themselves to continue to hold out a false hope of resettlement.
We, the Hong Kong authorities, and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees will continue to work closely to achieve the orderly return of those people as soon as possible. I am confident that we have the basis of a durable and humane solution to this long-running problem. We will continue in our unflagging efforts to make it work.
Mrs. Rosie Barnes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You may be aware that all right hon. and hon. Members received today a letter from the Secretary of State for Health about my private Member's Bill on no-fault compensation in the national health service. His letter refers to provisions in the Bill, which is not yet published and was only deposited with the Public Bill Office less than one hour ago. Is not it a grave contempt of the House for a Minister publicly to oppose a Bill in that way, before it has even been published?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): As I understand the hon. Lady, she is suggesting that contempt or a breach of privilege is involved. The correct procedure is for the hon. Lady to write to Mr. Speaker. Doubtless she will reflect on that.

National Curriculum (Religious Freedom)
2.30 pm
Mr. Robert G. Hughes: This is the last debate before Christmas and it is very much in the Christmas spirit—in that it is a genuinely altruistic debate. I used to work in the television industry, but am now a full-time politician. The people on whose behalf I have sought this debate are the Brethren, sometimes known as the Exclusive Brethren. They do not watch television and they do not vote, so this can genuinely be described as an altruistic effort on my part—and the same can be said of any other hon. Member who participates.
The Brethren are very concerned about the national curriculum—not so much about its content as about the way that it is being interpreted. The Brethren have doctrinal purity. They believe in the inspiration of the Bible, and therefore no religious instruction is taken outside the Brethren. They do not share meals with non-believers; nor do they watch films or television. They do not use computers either, and heavily restrict their reading material. Some people will find that odd. Most people will regard their behaviour as being outside their own norms of society.
In representing the case of the Brethren in my constituency, it is not for me to decide what are the norms of society, or what those decent, honest, law-abiding people should or should not do—or should or should not want for their children. In the past, I have taken up cases concerning people who are black or Asian—and no doubt I shall do so in future. For example, I was heavily involved with the whole issue of whether Sikh people should be forced to wear hard hats on building sites. My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Education and Science, was partly instrumental in ensuring, very creditably, that they should not be compelled to do so. That was done on the basis that it was not for us to dictate what people should or should not believe in terms of their religion. What was true for them must be true for the Brethren.
The Government's view was put by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Mrs. Rumbold) when she was Minister of State, and was reiterated by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North (Mr. Eggar) when he assumed that office. It is summed up in a letter from my hon. Friend dated 29 August, in which he states:
"the use of television and radio programmes and videos as media for teaching is not a requirement of the National Curriculum … DES Circular 3/90, which was issued on 6 March with the National Curriculum Order for technology, made clear our hope that schools would have regard to parents' views in their choice of media for teaching purposes."
That makes it abundantly clear that, with goodwill on both sides, it could and should be possible to reach a reasonable compromise. Regrettably, that has not been the case.
There have been a range of responses. Some schools and local education authorities have been helpful. In Humberside, a school wrote to the parents saying:
"Your children will be allowed to leave the room whenever a video is to be shown, in all subjects and in each year group; you will be informed of a suitable textbook in Science, which you may wish to purchase as an alternative source of information … In English, you will be sent a copy of texts which are to be used, so that you may decide upon their suitability. Should you feel they are not acceptable then we will try to provide an alternative".
590
In the London borough of Barnet, the headmaster of East Barnet school said:
"The parents and pupils concerned"—
the Brethren—
"are admirable people and I sincerely hope that their strongly held religious beliefs can be accommodated within the State schools. I trust that the English traditions of religious tolerance and compromise will eventually prevail.
Article 14 of the Convention of The Rights Of The Child, adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 20th November 1989: States Parties shall respect the rights and duties of the parents … to provide direction to the child in the exercise of his or her right in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child."
In the London borough of Harrow, one of the schools wrote to parents saying:
"Brethren children are excused from these sessions, however with the encouragement of their teachers and parents they invariably back-up their work from other sources … -Far from inhibiting the childrens' progress, it enables them to give a different view point in written work and discussion."
Finally, a head teacher from a school in Gloucester said:
"This letter is just to inform you that the school policy will continue to be one of respecting your wishes in this matter, come what may!"
It has not always been as good as that. Some schools and education authorities have been actively hostile. I have here a series of insensitive and high-handed letters. If these children were black or Asian, some of the remarks in these letters could contravene the Race Relations Act 1976. The remarks that I am about to read are, in my judgment, patronising, insulting and high-handed.
In Hampshire, a headmaster said:
"there are areas in which you have no choice in law whilst the pupils are attending a State school. These areas are in connection with Sex Education and Information Technology."
That headmaster is wrong in law.
In Stafford, a chairman of governors wrote:
"Your particular interpretation of the Bible places demands upon the school's resources that cannot be met without a very considerable amount of extra work."
How dare he tell parents what their interpretation of the Bible must, or must not be?
Mr. William Cash: Will my hon. Friend note that I have the greatest possible sympathy with the views that are expressed by the Exclusive Brethren? It would be extremely desirable if some of the people who use these intemperate remarks would pay greater attention to the importance of religion and Christianity in our schools. Furthermore, if he looks at the Race Relations Act 1976, I think that he will find that there is a positive prohibition not only of racism, but also of discrimination on religious grounds.
Mr. Hughes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) both for his support and for the interesting point that he has made about the Race Relations Act. I am certain that the Brethren will follow that up.
Indeed, I have received a number of letters front colleagues, including my neighbour the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), expressing their support for what I was doing today and hoping that the Brethren will be allowed to carry on as they are and that their religion will be respected.
I have a letter from the chairman of governors of a school in Stockport:
"We regret the necessity of this action as we accept that your request was made with the best of intentions".

591
That is the letter that I described as patronising. A Suffolk headmaster said:
"there is no point in discussing these matters further and therefore I am not prepared to make another appointment."
The appointment was with representatives of the Brethren. That was on 2 February, a full month before the Government's circular was issued. The school would not even consult before the Government's view was clear.
The final letter from which I wish to quote comes, regrettably, from my own constituency. I am sorry to say that it is from the chairman of the governors at Longfield school. It is a very good school, but the governors will have to think again. Dr. Welch, the chairman, said:
"the Governors give notice that, as from the first day of the new school year in September 1991, no pupil may be excluded from any lesson, or part of a lesson, or any procedure used by the teaching staff to deliver the curriculum … From September 1991, if pupils exclude themselves from any part of the secular curriculum, for reasons other than those listed, the matter will be dealt with using the agreed disciplinary procedures".
I find that entirely unacceptable. It is plain that the good will and reasonableness that my hon. Friend the Minister of State and his predecessor hoped would prevail have not done so in all circumstances. We must see what can be done to help the people concerned. If necessary, they will refer the matter to the European Court of Human Rights—and they have every reason to do so. Article 2 of the European convention on human rights states:
"No person shall be denied the right to education … The State shall respect the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religious … convictions."
Nothing could be clearer than that.
I believe that a change may be necessary to enable parents to exercise their own religious discretion. Let me give just one example of what has been done in another part of the world. In New South Wales, Australia, the legislative assembly passed a Bill saying:
"The parent of a child enrolled at a government school may give the Director-General of School Education written notice that the parent conscientiously objects on religious grounds to the child being taught a particular part of a course of study."
I believe that that is necessary. I believe that we must protect these people, particularly because of the very fact that they do not vote. The fact that they do not vote is a matter for them. Because they do not take what others would regard as a normal part in society, we have an even greater responsibility to protect them—against, for instance, the high-handed attitude displayed in the letters from which I have quoted.
2.42 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Tim Eggar): I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) for raising this issue, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) for attending the "swansong" of this part of our Session.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West has raised a very serious matter, and I know that the Brethren feel very strongly about it. It is a matter on which I have already spent considerable time since my arrival in my relatively new post, and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Mrs. Rumbold) also spent a good deal of time considering it. It was considered
592
exhaustively during the various procedures and thought processes that contributed to the building of the national curriculum.
The questions raised by my hon. Friend and by the Brethren are not only matters for the Brethren themselves; they relate to the position of all children who are educated in our maintained schools. The issue at stake is what sort of education we should provide for the majority of our youngsters to ensure that they leave school well prepared to meet the challenges that they will face throughout their lives.
One of the aims of the national curriculum is to ensure a broad and balanced education for all pupils of compulsory school age at maintained schools. That is part of a wider requirement—enshrined in section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988—to ensure that all pupils are fully prepared for the opportunities, responsibilities and experiences of adult life. If we are not to sell children short, we must ensure that all pupils in maintained schools are given a thorough and relevant preparation for adult and working life.
It is essential that children are prepared for the world in which we live. Information technology is playing an increasingly significant role in contemporary life. Pupils cannot be prepared for a modern society in which the use of information technology is prevalent if they are not provided with some basic knowledge and understanding about information technology. This is not to prosyletise or encourage, but it is to inform. It is vital that young people are fully aware of and competent to use information technology. Not to include information technology in the national curriculum would be an immense disservice to future generations who will have to work and compete in a wider world with others.
To leave information technology optional would also disadvantage children in a country that must strive hard in a highly competitive and increasingly technological world. We therefore need to ensure that all pupils in state schools understand how information technology and its applications work. That is why the Government believe that IT education should be a requirement, not an option, under the national curriculum in maintained schools.
In particular, all pupils should have the opportunity to acquire some knowledge, skills and understanding about computers and their uses. This is a matter of curriculum content rather than delivery. Computer education is not simply a medium for teaching other subjects: information technology constitutes a subject for study in itself. That is why the national curriculum order for technology—along with those for maths, science and English—all involve the use of computers or word processors. Schools are not allowed to excuse children from these requirements; nor can local education authorities.
I can understand many of the Brethren's concerns about modern media which information technology supports in one way or another. Quite apart from religious beliefs, it is widely felt that television, radio and videos do not always portray the best in our society. I can appreciate why parents should wish to protect their children from the worst aspects of those media. Parents have rightly complained about materials which, while acceptable for adults, would be unsuitable for children in their early and formative years. I respect parents' views on those matters. The portrayal of sex and violence in various media and the

593
promotion of uncaring and irreligious attitudes, particularly among the young at an age when they are impressionable and vulnerable, rightly concern many people.
I respect the wish of Brethren parents to discourage their children from becoming too accustomed to television, radio and videos. That is irrespective of the Brethren's particular religious views. The Government have been at pains to ensure that the views of the Brethren were carefully considered. We have received a great many representations on their behalf. I have listened intensively to the views expressed by some of my constituents in Enfield, North. There has been very extensive correspondence about the whole issue, and my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden met representatives of the Brethren to discuss the matter. The subject was also aired in the Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments when it considered the national curriculum orders in English and technology last June.
The use of television, radio and videos in schools is a question of the delivery rather than the content of the curriculum. The national curriculum emphatically does not require the use of such media. Schools remain free to choose their own teaching methods. The Government have done their best to ensure that shools are aware of this. Guidance has been offered on this point in a circular that was issued by my Department in March this year, along with the national curriculum order for technology. These documents made clear our hope that schools would have regard to parents' views in their choice of media for teaching purposes.
I have to make it clear that the guidance contained in the circular is not legally binding and that the final decision on teaching methods rests with schools. Although I can, and do, encourage schools to have regard to parents' views on teaching methods, the Government have no power to direct them to do so. Nevertheless, I would expect schools and local education authorities to be sensitive to the beliefs of families in considering teaching methods and teaching materials.
My hon. Friend referred to a number of letters and, in the phraseology of the old essay question, called on me to contrast and compare them. He referred to a letter from a school in Harrow. Although that school seems to be acting within the letter of the law, I regret the intransigent and hostile tone that was adopted and the lack of sensitivity that was shown. I hope that all schools will heed the advice that is given in my Department's circular 390, in which we encouraged head teachers and their staff to have regard to parents' views on the media used for teaching and, where practical, to provide individual pupils with alternative methods. My hon. Friend cited one or two examples of the way in which some schools were doing just that.
An important issue in making decisions about the use of such alternative materials should be whether pupils' access to the curriculum would be seriously harmed if they did not participate in lessons involving the use of those media. I hope that schools will adopt a friendly and helpful approach to members of the Brethen to find ways of meeting the school's legal obligations and of enabling Brethren children to remain within maintained schools.
I must stress that parents cannot exercise a right of veto by withdrawing their children from particular lessons if they disagree with the teaching methods that are used. There is nothing new in that. There has been a long-standing right under the Education Acts for parents
594
to withdraw their children from religious education and collective worship in maintained schools. There has never been a parallel right of withdrawal from the secular curriculum of maintained schools.
The introduction of the national curriculum does not alter the historical position; nor does the Education Reform Act contain powers that would allow parents to decide which aspect of the national curriculum their children should follow.
My hon. Friend referred to article 2 of the first protocol to the European convention on human rights. The Government's view is that the article does not require the state to provide education in accordance with the particular religious or philosophical convictions of parents. Nor does it prevent the state from including in the school curriculum matters that do not accord with some parents' convictions, provided—this is a big proviso—that the material is presented in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner. We believe that the requirements of the national curriculum are compatible with article 2.
We offer choice in education. Parents can opt to send their children outside maintained schools. They may send them to independent schools or educate them in some other way—for example, at home. We do not wish to exclude groups of people who have deeply held views from access to our maintained schools.
We have reviewed the Brethren's case thoroughly. We have looked extensively at ways in which it may be accommodated. I believe that at central Government level we have arrived at the best solution that can reasonably be expected. The Government have to take a broad perspective and, if we gave Brethren the right to withdraw their children from particular aspects of the national curriculum, other parents might well expect to get similar rights on grounds of other religious, conscientious or philosophical objections to other parts of the curriculum.
We do not, therefore, intend to introduce a conscience clause, which would encourage parents to withdraw their children from a variety of significant elements of the national curriculum. If every child in a maintained school could resort to a conscience clause, it would undermine the concept of the national curriculum. That would not be in the greater interest of education in this country. I recognise that my hon. Friend did not develop that line of argument, but on previous occasions the Brethren have indicated—they have done so to me personally—that that is an avenue which they would wish to pursue. However, as I said, we must exclude that option.
But—this is an important but—schools have a great deal of discretion in the way in which the curriculum is taught. I would expect that schools would be very responsive to the wishes and beliefs of parents in this. Just as they have put a great deal of time and effort into ensuring that materials and manner of delivery attempt to avoid a gender bias or a racial bias, to which my hon. Friend referred, so they should also ensure that they do not trample over people's beliefs. I am confident that the Government's reforms, which give parents far more freedom of choice in the school to which they send their children, will ensure that governors are aware of parents' feelings in this, and ensure that the national curriculum is delivered in an appropriate manner.
This does not, however, in any way enable young people in the maintained sector to opt out of any part of the national curriculum. The national curriculum was introduced to ensure that every child in a maintained

595
school would get an education that would serve him well for adult life and employment. We must not disadvantage those children as a whole. We must offer them nothing less than a full, broad and balanced curriculum. That decision has been reached for the greater good of the majority of children in this country. We remain firmly committed to that aim and to the national curriculum.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): On behalf of Mr. Speaker and my colleagues, may I extend to all right hon. and hon. Members our best wishes for an enjoyable Christmas and a happy new year? I am sure that all right hon. and hon. Members join me in wishing all those who serve us in this building an enjoyable Christmas and happy 1991.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at three minutes to Three o'clock till Monday, 14 January, pursuant to the Resolution yesterday.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Westminster County Court
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Attorney-General why it is proposed that Westminster county court should be closed in the context of proposed transfer of jurisdiction from the High Court to the county court; and what representations he has received against closure.

  The Attorney-General
  It has been proposed that Westminster county court be closed on the expiry of the lease on the present premises as no suitable alternative accommodation can be found.

  It is intended that the court will be merged with the existing Bloomsbury county court and located at new premises to be known as Bloomsbury and Westminster county court.

  The premises presently occupied by Bloomsbury county court will be converted into a trial centre for the London county courts in order to hear the additional heavier cases which will be dealt with by the county courts following the new arrangements for the allocation of business.

  Some concern was expressed at the initial proposals by various parties, however, following consultation with the judiciary and members of the local court user committee, no written representations against closure have been received.

  County Court Trials
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will give details of the county court trial centres which are to be established following the passage of the Courts and Legal Services Act.

  The Attorney-General
  A total of 74 county court trial centres have already been established in England and Wales, which between them provide continuous trial facilities for over 250 county courts. A further six trial centres are planned. A full list of existing trial centres and those planned will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Attorney-General if county court trial facilities will now be made available at the Royal Courts of Justice.

  The Attorney-General
  There are no existing plans to use the Royal Courts of Justice for county court trials. Additional facilities for county court trials were established in the court complex at Wood Green in May this year.

  Court Rules
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Attorney-General what steps are being taken to approximate the rules of the county court and the High Court.
  250
  The Attorney-General
  A Policy of convergence towards common remedies and procedures has been adopted. This is being given effect through the programme of rule changes which implement the recommendations of the civil justice review.

  Jurisdiction
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will publish a timetable for the transfer of jurisdiction from the High Court to the county court.

  The Attorney-General
  New arrangements for the allocation of business between the High Court and county courts are to be set out in an order made under section 1 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990. Consultation on the content of the order has only recently closed. A formal announcement on the date for implementation will be made once consideration has been given to the various responses.

  Courts (Construction)
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Attorney-General what is the current cost of the new High Court building in Bradford; what was the brief given to the architect; and if he will make a statement.

  The Attorney-General
  The cost at current prices of the new Crown and county court building at Bradford is approximately £20 million. The architect's brief was to provide eight Crown courtrooms and two county courtrooms with supporting facilities. It is expected that the building will be ready for use in the summer of 1992.

  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Attorney-General what is the total amount spent on constructing new courts for each of the last 10 years; and if he will give the number of courts and their location for each year.

  The Attorney-General
  The Lord Chancellor's Department is responsible for Crown, county, combined and High Court centres in England and Wales. Magistrates' courts are the responsibility of the Home Office. Details of new Crown, county, combined and High Court centres completed over the past 10 years and their total costs are given in the table. The schemes listed have produced some 250 courtrooms at an average cost of £1·1 million per courtroom.

  Court

  Type

  £million1

  1981

  Snaresbrook

  Crown

  Burnley

  Crown

  Kings Lynn

  Crown

  Total cost

  5·395

  1982

  Bolton

  Combined

  Porsmouth

  Combined

  Chelmsford

  Crown

  Leeds

  Combined

  Total cost

  26·282

  1983

  Southwark

  Crown

  Maidstone

  Combined

  Total cost

  22·880

  1984

  Liverpool

  Combined

  Total cost

  45·176

  251

  Court

  Type

  £ million1

  1985

  Oxford

  Combined

  Swindon

  Combined

  Brighton

  County

  Total cost

  9·103

  1986

  Isleworth

  Crown

  Milton Keynes

  County

  Guildford

  Crown

  Manchester Wood Street—Phase 1

  Crown

  Peterborough

  Combined

  Total cost

  24·284

  1987

  Southampton

  Combined

  Birmingham

  Crown

  Nottingham —Phases 2 and 3

  Crown

  Total cost

  22·229

  1988

  Norwich

  Combined

  Swansea

  Crown

  Coventry

  Combined

  Telford

  County

  Snaresbrook—additional

  Crown

  Middlesex Guildhall

  Crown

  Truro

  Combined

  Grimsby

  Combined

  Total cost

  38·862

  1989

  Derby

  Combined

  Croydon

  Combined

  Doncaster

  Crown

  Total cost

  21·660

  1990

  RCJ—additional

  High

  Wood Green—Phase 2

  Crown

  Manchester Wood Street—Phases 2 and 3

  Combined

  Taunton

  Crown

  Wolverhampton

  Combined

  Newcastle Quayside

  Combined

  Total cost

  56·805

  Grand Total

  272·676

  1 Current prices.

  Date

  Location

  Aircraft involved

  Circumstances1

  Approximate height

  5 January 1988

  2 NM2 S of Whittlesey

  Jet Ranger/Jet Provost

  Late sighting by both pilots

  300 ft

  27 January 1988

  1 NM E of Netherthorpe

  Cessna/Tornado

  Unauthorised penetration of Netherthorpe air traffic zone by Tornado pilot, compounded by late sighting of Cessna

  800 ft

  23 February 1988

  11 NMWof Beverley

  Jet Ranger/Tornado

  Late sighting by Tornado pilot

  300 ft

  12 April 1988

  5 NM N of Dalwhinnie

  Hughes 500/2 Buccaneers

  Failure of Buccaneer crews to see and avoid helicopter in a notified CAN3 area

  250 ft

  13 April 1988

  4 NM SW of Newtonmore

  Hughes 500 F16

  Failure of F16 pilot to see and give way to helicopter in a notified CANP area

  250 ft

  15 April 1988

  5 NM S of Newtonmore

  Jet Ranger/Hunter

  Failure of Hunter pilot to see and avoid Jet Ranger in a notified CANP area.

  600 ft

  17 May 1988

  7 NM SW of Binbrook

  Apache/Jet Provost

  Failure of RAF Waddington radar to disclose Jet Provost

  1,800 ft

  Mr. Bill Galbraith
  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Attorney-General, pursuant to his answer of 7 December,Official Report, column 211, concerning the investigation by the Gloucestershire constabulary into comments made by Mr. Bill Galbraith, if he will make a further statement on the results of that investigation and any report that has been submitted to him.

  The Attorney-General
  The Gloucestershire constabulary has not yet supplied the Crown Prosecution Service with a report concerning its investigation, and so I am not in a position to make a further statement.

  Sunday Trading
  Mr. Stanbrook
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will seek injuctions in the High Court to restrain unlawful Sunday trading during the Christmas and new year period.

  The Attorney-General
  Parliament has made it the duty of local authorities to enforce the legislation relating to Sunday trading, and I do not at present intend to apply for injunctions.

DEFENCE

  Airmisses
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the dates, locations, aircraft involved, altitudes and circumstances of each of the category A airmisses between civil and military aircraft over the United Kingdom in 1988.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  There are the following category A airmisses between civil and military aircraft over the United Kingdom in 1988:
  253

  Date

  Location

  Aircraft involved

  Circumstances1

  Approximate height

  20 May 1988

  6 NM N of Cosford

  Zlin 250L/Hawk

  Late sighting by Hawk pilot leading to late avoiding action

  2,000 ft

  13 June 1988

  10 NM W of York

  Jet Provost/ Cessna

  Late sighting by both pilots

  1,800 ft

  30 July 1988

  13 NM SW of Lyneham

  Cherokee/ Hercules

  Failure by two RAF Lyneham air traffic controllers to separate two aircraft they were respectively controlling

  1,500 ft

  1 August 1988

  0·5 NM E of Sutton Meadows

  Microlight/ Tornado

  Failure of Tornado pilot to see microlight

  450 ft

  2 September 1988

  1 NM NE of Portmoak

  Glider/Buccaneer

  Unauthorised penetration of Portmoak glider site by Buccaneer pilot who failed to see and avoid glider

  1,700 ft

  13 October 1988

  7 NM W of Upper Heyford

  F-111/Cherokee

  Failure of Cherokee pilot to contact air traffic control at RAF Upper Heyford before flying south of Enstone airfield runway centreline, as required by Letter of Agreement between Enstone and Upper Heyford

  2,000 ft.

  1 Based on assessment by joint airmiss working group of cause of airmiss.

  2 NM—Nautical miles.

  3 CANP—Civil aircraft notification procedure.

  Air Defence Ground Environment
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether there are any plans to use data from the AN/FPS-117 radars at Bolafjall and Gunnolfsvikurfjall in Iceland as real-time input data to the United Kingdom air defence ground environment.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Yes.

  Menwith Hill
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Leyton on 30 November.,Official Report, column 536, what information he has received from the United States authorities about why the proposed construction for water storage at Menwith Hill was excluded from the information provided to him for his answer to the hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) on 6 February, Official Report, column 603.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  My hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Member.

  Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the implications of a comprehensive test ban treaty for his Department.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  I refer the hon. Member to paragraph 127 of the statement on the Defence Estimates 1990.

  The Gulf
  Mr. Cohen
  'To ask the Secretary of State for Defence who is being sent out to the Gulf to entertain the troops.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Sir Harry Secombe has recently visited the Gulf and Paul Daniels will visit before Christmas. In addition, Combined Services Entertainment arranged a very successful light entertainment show early this month, and further similar shows are planned.

  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to deploy Gurkhas in the Gulf.
  254
  Mr. Alan Clark
  A few individual Gurkhas are currently serving in the Gulf. In addition, a Gurkha transport squadron will deploy to the Gulf as part of the reinforcements announced by my right hon. Friend on 22 November.

  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make it his policy to place no money restrictions upon the movement or operation of military forces in the Gulf which might in any way jeopardise the safety of personnel.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The Government are committed to ending Iraq's aggression, and will make whatever contribution is appropriate to secure freedom and justice for Kuwait. We shall ensure that the armed forces deployed to the Gulf are provided with the means necessary to do the job that we ask of them.

  Combined Heat and Power
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he is taking to ensure that departmental properties and establishments reap the maximum financial and environmental benefits from combined heat and power schemes.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The Ministry of Defence is investigating the viability of operating combined heat and power schemes on a number of specific sites.

  Recycled Materials and Renewable Energy
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is his Department's policy on promoting the use of recycled materials and renewable energies where relevant to his Department's activities.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The Government's policy on the use of recycled materials and renewable energy is set out in the White Paper, "This Common Inheritance" (Cm 1200). The MOD is about to bring into use a further range of recycled stationery. We aim to send for recycling non-hazardous waste which can be beneficially recycled without disproportionate cost.
  255
  We have a long-standing record on the pursuit of energy efficiency and we monitor developments in the field of renewable energy technology. We are studying sites in the United Kingdom which may have potential for wind powered electricity generation.

  Iraq
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he has recently received from The Sunday Times concerning the status of the Iraqi nuclear programme; when the information was passed to his Department; and what steps he has taken to evaluate the information received.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  We were aware of information contained in The Sunday Times article before it was published.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he possesses concerning the capacity of the A1-Qaim uranium processing factory in Iraq.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  A1-Qaim is a plant to manufacture fertilisers from phosphates mined in the vicinity. It is possible to extract minute quantities of uranium ore which is present in the phosphates as impurities, but we have no knowledge of quantities obtained.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he possesses concerning the activities of scientists from the Qaqaa explosives factory in Iraq in(a) the United Kingdom and (b) other member states of the NATO alliance.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  We have no specific information on the activities of Iraqi scientists from the Qaqaa explosives factory in the United Kingdom or other NATO countries. Scientists from all over the world are free to attend courses and conferences in this and other countries, and many do so.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he possesses concerning the role of factory 10 near Samarra in Iraq in nuclear materials processing.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  We have no significant information on the role of Factory 10 near Samarra.

  Permeameters
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether there is any military use in terms of equipment monitoring and testing for permeameters.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Permeameters have numerous uses, both civil and military.

  Radio Masts, Sennybridge
  Mr. Livsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has changed his plans to site naval radar/radio masts on His Majesty's land on the Sennybridge range in Brecon and Radnor.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  A requirement for new defence communication facilities is under consideration, but no decisions on locations have yet been taken. We expect to make a decision in the coming year.
  256
  Mr. Livsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects a decision to be announced on the siting of naval radar/radio masts for submarine communications on the Sennybridge ranges in Brecon and Radnor.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  A requirement for new defence communication facilities is under consideration, but no decisions on locations have yet been taken. We expect to make a decision in the coming year.

WALES

  Training and Enterprise Councils
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the estimated budget for each of the training enterprise and councils in Wales for(a) 1990–91 and (b) 1991–92; how many people in each training and enterprise council are likely to be trained under (i) youth training and (ii) employment training in 1990–91; what are the comparable figures for the last full year; and what assumptions are made about the number of places to be provided in 1991–92.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  Welsh Economy
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was (i) the gross domestic product in Wales and (ii) the income per head in Wales, as percentages of the United Kingdom average in the latest available year.

  Mr. David Hunt
  In 1988, the total gross domestic product per head for Wales was estimated to be 84·0 per cent. of the United Kingdom average (excluding the continental shelf region). These 1988 figures are provisional and revised set, together with provisional figures for 1989, will be published in the November 1990 issue of Economic Trends (No. 445) on 28 December 1990, a copy of which will be placed in the Library.

  Wales' total personal income per head in 1988 was provisionally estimated to be 83·9 per cent. of the United Kingdom average while household income per head in that year was provisionally estimated to be 84·6 per cent. of the national figure.

  Hospital Waiting Lists
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he has now achieved his waiting list objectives specified in pages 160 and 161 of the Welsh Office Public Expenditure Commentary for orthopaedics at the Prince of Wales hospital, Rhydlafar, ophthalmics at Ysbyty Gwynedd and Bangor, and hernias and varicose veins at Bridgend general hospital.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Figures for waiting lists for hernia and varicose vein treatment at Bridgend general hospital are not separately available. At the other hospitals for which information is requested only the waiting times target relating to the out-patient list for trauma and orthopaedic surgery at the Prince of Wales hospital, Rhydlafar has thus far been achieved.

  Roads
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many of the major road schemes specified to start in 1990–91 in table 35 of the Welsh Office commentary on public expenditure in Wales 1990–91 to 1992–93 have now commenced.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Work on A55 Rhuallt Hill scheme started in May. The contract for A4060 Pentrebach-Dowlais (Phase 2) was let on the 19 December and work will start in January.

  Inward Investment
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list inward investment projects during 1990, specifying the capital investment involved and the number of new jobs created directly.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Between 1 January 1990 arid 30 November 1990, Wales secured 129 inward investment projects involving £484 million of capital investment, promising 7,800 new jobs and safeguarding 7,300 existing jobs. A list of the companies concerned has been placed in the Library of the House though for reasons of commercial confidentiality individual details of investment and jobs are not disclosed.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report the additional funding his Department has made to each of the regionally funded renal units in Wales during the current financial year, for the prescribing costs for the drug Erythropoietin; and if he will separately distinguish the number of patients currently receiving such treatment at each unit together with the number of patients refused such treatment because of budgetary constraints on the prescribing consultant.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Information on the number of patients receiving Erythropoietin is not held centrally. During the current financial year additional funds of £75,000 were made available to each of West Glamorgan and Clwyd health authorities to assist with the prescribing of Erythropoietin at the main renal units within those authorities.

  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the estimated number of patients who would benefit from erythropoietin.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The use of EPO for individual patients is a matter of clinical judgment at the time. No specific representations have been received about the aggregate number of patients who might benefit from its use. Managing health authorities of main renal dialysis units receive central revenue support which includes the cost of drugs at estimated levels of need.

  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has received, and intends to acquire, information from district health authorities on the extent to which the funding provided for the 1991–92 financial year will meet the needs of all patients who fulfil the criteria for benefiting from erythropoietin.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Following the dedesignation of regional services from 1991–92 it will be for district health 258
  authorities to determine the resources which should be made available for the prescription of drugs, including erythropoietin.

  New Housing
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if his forecast of spend on local authority new build for 1989–90 was achieved.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  In 1989–90 local authorities spent £24·031 million on new build schemes. In addition, they chose to transfer capital resources of over £17 million to housing associations, for projects which will provide additional housing units.

  Treatment Centres Initiative
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the benefits to patients that could be achieved if the money budgeted for the treatment centres initiative in Wales were to be redirected to increase the rate of treatment of patients in the same specialties at appropriate hospitals throughout Wales, using existing facilities.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Within the United Kingdom, treatment centres are unique to Wales. The purpose of this initiative is to offer to those throughout Wales who have been waiting four months or more the choice of earlier treatment for key disabling conditions. The centre at Rhydlafar has been operating for year. It is too early to establish firm referral patterns.

  Once all the centres have completed their first year's operations, it is intended to undertake a wider evaluation of the treatment centre initiative. Initial indications are that the centres are proving to be an effective alternative method of delivering speedier health care for Welsh patients.

  Alcohol Misuse
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what programmes have been developed by the Health Promotion Authority for Wales as that authority's contribution to tackling the problem of alcohol misuse in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The Health Promotion Authority for Wales's national "substance misuse" programme includes action targeted at alcohol misuse in the Principality, in partnership with voluntary and local agencies, eg. health education publications, components of the authority's mobile life education centre units, and support for Drinkwise Day.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his replies of 4 December,Official Report, column 74, in regard to alcohol misuse, if he will make it his policy to concentrate the available finances on the provision of local services.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Yes.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has met the chairman of chief executive of the Health Promotion Authority for Wales to discuss the work undertaken in the past, and to be undertaken in the future, by that authority in respect of developing positive approaches to alcohol and discouraging people from misuse of alcohol; and if he will make a statement.
  259
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Although my right hon. Friend has met both the chairman and chief executive of the authority, he did not discuss programme planning on that occasion. However, his predecessor had several meetings with the authority leading up to the launch of their "Health for All" in Wales strategy document in January 1990. That strategy includes the goal of reducing substantially the misuse of alcohol in the Principality and a series of detailed targets for specific improvements for various age ranges of the population. Action to achieve the strategy's goals and targets will be taken by the authority and a range of other organisations in partnership. The authority will publish a firm three-year action programme in the spring.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of the funds available to the Health Promotion Authority for Wales have been allocated(a) directly or (b) indirectly to work relating to alcohol misuse in each year since the establishment of that authority; and what proportion he intends should be devoted to such purposes in 1991–92.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The following proportions of the Health Promotion Authority for Wales' exchequer budget have been directly allocated to alcohol misuse work:

  1987–88—not available.

  1988–89—4·per cent.

  1989–90—6·5 per cent.

  1990–91—1·3 per cent.

  Figures are not available for work indirectly relating to alcohol misuse—for example, elements of the heartbeat Wales and cancer programmes. My right hon. Friend had not yet decided the detail of the authority's budget for 1991–92.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales wht level of service, according to what criteria he intends shall be achieved in each county of Wales as a result of the finances his Department is to make available in respect of alcohol abuse.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  It is for local and health authorities to determine the level of service necessary to combat alcohol misuse in their areas. Central funding will be used to support such local strategies.

  Sunday Trading
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what resources he has made available to local authorities in Wales to enable them to tackle breaches of the law by large commercial organisations;

  (2) whether he will make it his policy to offer additional resources to local authorities in Wales to enable them to tackle breaches of the legislation regarding Sunday trading by major retail organisations;

  (3) what guidance he or his Department has offered to local authorities in Wales on their responsibilities in regard to the enforcement of the legislation which regulates Sunday trading;

  (4) what assessment he has made of the impact in Wales of large stores and multiple-outlet retail firms opening on Sunday in contravention of the law during December.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Enforcement of the law is a matter for local authorities. It is for them to decide how to discharge their duties under the Shops Act 1950.

  The provisional local authority revenue settlement for 1991–92 allows for total standard spending of £2,433
  260
  million—some 8 per cent. above authorities' 1990–91 budgets. I would expect authorities to be able to meet any additional costs arising from Sundary trading enforcement from within that total.

  Homelessness
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what new and additional finance he is making available to help(a) local authorities and (b) voluntary organisations to tackle the problem of homelessness in Wales generally and in Cardiff in particular;

  (2) what new initiatives he is taking to tackle the problem of homelessness in Wales in general and Cardiff in particular.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Local authorities will soon be invited to bid against a capital reserve amounting to around £2·9 million for 1991–92. Cardiff will certainly wish to respond. The reserve is designed to complement authorities' own efforts in dealing with cases of homelessness, within the context of the approach to partnership with the housing association sector which is developing strongly in Wales. This is underpinned by our plans to increase the total housing association stock by over a third by 1993–94. The Department's close working contract with voluntary bodies concerned with homelessness will continue. Revenue funding for them has been increased by over 16 per cent. to £460,000 for 1991–2. For districts experiencing particular pressure this year, we intend to make available a further £2 million at least, in support of operationally effective scheme.

  Fishing Industry
  Dr. Godman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of fishermen to discuss their current fishing activities and prospects.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I met a delegation representing Milford Haven fishing interests on 20 September.

  Child Labour
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he has taken to assess the extent and seriousness of exploitation of child labour in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  None. Any allegations that children are working illegally should be drawn to the attention of the authorities who have responsibility for enforcing the law (including the provisions of local byelaws).

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what fresh initiatives he intends to take to prevent the exploitation of child labour in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  None.

  Water
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) whether he intends to meet the Director of Water Services to discuss the rise in prices planned by Welsh Water plc;

  (2) whether he intends to meet the Director of Water Services to discuss the requirements being placed on Welsh Water plc in respect of the investment needed in Wales on water supply, sewerage and water quality in rivers and on beaches;
  261
  (3) whether he intends to meet the Director of Water Services to discuss the expenditure by Welsh Water plc on the purchase of shares in South Wales electricity board.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be meeting the Director General of Water Services in the new year to discuss a number of matters relevant to their responsibilities.

  Sprint Programme
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he has taken to publicise the European Community Sprint programme along small and medium-sized businesses in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The European Community's Sprint programme is featured in a leaflet included in a Welsh Office business service information pack. These are widely distributed to small and medium-sized businesses throughout Wales through various awareness events and also by my officials in their day to day contact with industry.

  Through its involvement with Sprint, the Welsh Development Agency has also promoted the programme to industry.

  Llyn Mawr Site, Swansea
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what decision he has made on the future of the Llyn Mawr site in Swansea.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  My right hon. Friend has already written to the right hon. Gentleman to say that he has deferred implementing the direction to West Glamorgan county council to sell the site at Llwynmawr road, Swansea by up to 36 months.

  Heat Treatment Works, Abercumboi
  Mr. Colin Shepherd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many direct representations he has received in connection with the application by Coal Products Ltd. to build a mild heat treatment works at Abercumboi; and if he will list them.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  It is not possible to obtain the information in the time available, but I will write to my hon. Friend and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  Housing Revenue Account Subsidy
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he will announce his initial housing revenue account subsidy determinations for 1991–92.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The housing revenue account subsidy determinations for 1991–92 for Wales have been made today. They cover the assumptions that the Government will make about rents and management and maintenance and other rules governing the calculation of each authority's subsidy entitlement. I am placing copies of the determinations in the Library.

  For rent guidelines, the proposals for an average increase of 2 per cent. above the allowance for inflation are confirmed. This means an average increase of £1·88 and a range of increases from £1·41 to £2·50 per week for individual authorities over the guideline rents which applied this year.
  262
  The proposals for management and maintenance expenditure are similarly confirmed. These introduce a system which targets allowances in a way which better reflects the condition of each authority's council stock. This will benefit authorities with the poorest stock while no authority will have a lower allowance per dwelling, in cash terms, than in the current year. Across Wales overall, the average increase in the level of allowances will maintain them at this year's level in real terms.

  It is for each council to determine its own rent and how much to spend on the management and maintenance of its stock.

  On leasing, subject to some refinement of the rules, the proposals on which we consulted for the Principality covering the amounts of leasing which would attract subsidy within the housing revenue account are also confirmed.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list any opinion surveys conducted by, for, or on behalf of his Department since 1 January 1985, giving the date and purpose of each survey.

  Mr. David Hunt
  [holding answer 17 December 1990]: The information is given in the table.

  Title

  Year

  Survey associated with the Community Nursing

  Review

  1985

  Aids knowledge and attitudes survey

  1986

  Survey by Grigmore into market research in mature entrants to nursing

  1987

  Welsh Youth Survey —A series of surveys concerned with attitudes on diet, alcohol use, smoking, physical activities, dental health and health beliefs.

  1986,88 & 90

  Evaluation of campaigns and training events:

  Combating sex stereotyping in school girls career choice

  1987

  Drinkwise campaign (Attenders and Organisers)

  1989

  Quit and Win

  1990

  Health Lifestyle club

  1990

  Wales Tourist Board Marketing (Advertisers)

  1990

  Tourist Brochure Conversion Study

  1990

  Tourism, Impact Study, Llandrindod Wells Festival (Visitors and Local Residents)

  1989

  Monitoring of Community Charge Public Information Programme

  1989

  Review of Development Board for Rural Wales' Business Support Services

  1990

  Surveys by and on behalf of Cadw—Welsh Historic Monuments:

  Joint Cadw/WTB study of visitor attitudes involving 7 Cadw sites

  1985–86

  Postal survey of attitudes to 'Heritage in Wales' Membership

  1985–86

  Easter 1986 visitor study of 10 Cadw sites

  1986–87

  Survey of Cadw sites on attitudes to interpretative and display facilities

  1986–87

  Pricing policy and visitor satisfaction survey at 6 Cadw sites

  1986–87

  Comprehensive General Survey of 8 Cadw sites

  1986–87

  Survey of visitors to Events at Cadw sites

  1987–88

  WTB/Cadw survey of Domestic Holiday and Day Visitors to Wales in 1987

  1987–88

  WTB/Cadw survey of Overseas Holiday and Day Visitors to Wales in 1987

  1987–88

  Survey of visitors to 'Gerald of Wales' Exhibition in Cardiff

  1988–89

  Survey of visitors to 'Gerald of Wales' Exhibition at Criccieth

  1988–89

  Survey of school visits to 'Gerald of Wales' Exhibition in Cardiff

  1988–89

  Postal survey of school visits to Cadw sites

  1988–89

  263

  Title

  Year

  Survey of visitors attitudes to 8 Cadw sites

  1989–90

  Survey of visitors to Events at Cadw sites

  1989–90

  Survey of visitors at 5 Cadw shops

  1989–90

  Postal survey of 'Heritage in Wales' Membership

  1989–90

  Survey of visitors attitudes to Cadw sites in 2 North

  Wales resorts and 2 South Wales towns

  1990–91

  Survey of visitors attitudes to 4 unmanned Cadw sites

  1990–91

  Current Surveys

  Patient satisfaction survey of the outpatient

  Department, East Glamorgan Hospital

  Patients' responses to the service provided at the 3 All

  Wales Treatment Centres

  Attitudes and awareness of environmental issues in a range of companies

  In addition, surveys of local authority housing tenant opinion have been undertaken from time to time, notably in the context of the eight priority estate projects in Wales. The Welsh inter-censal survey 1986 included a question designed to test opinion on house repairs. Housing for Wales completed a survey report on the housing aspirations of young people in rural Wales earlier this year.

  Treatment Centres Initiative
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the success or failure of the treatment centres initiative in Wales to date.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  [holding answer 19 December 1990]: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave him earlier today.

ENVIRONMENT

  Local Government Finance
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give for 1990–91 and 1991–92 the share in percentage terms of income represented by (i) revenue support grant, (ii) the poll tax and (iii) the business rate for(a) the country as a whole and (b) Stoke on Trent.

  Mr. Key
  The information requested for 1990–91 is as follows:

  Percentage of income received from

  England

  Area of receiving authority of Stoke-on-Trent

  per cent.

  per cent.

  Revenue support grant

  29·1

  20·6

  Receipts from non·domestic rate pool

  32·1

  36·9

  Special grants/safety net adjustment to revenue support grant

  0·6

  4·1

  Budgeted income from community charges (post capping)

  38·3

  38·4

  Of which:

  Community charge benefit

  6·0

  4·7

  Transitional relief grant

  1·0

  0·8

  The percentages for 1991–92 will not be known until all authorities have set their community charges for that year.

  Stoke-on-Trent
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will accept the invitation of the leader of Stoke-on-Trent city council to discuss the current lack of any inner-city status for Stoke-on-Trent.

  Mr. Key
  We will be responding to councilor Smith'sinvitation shortly.

  Special Needs Housing
  Mrs. Golding
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) if he will list the numbers of housing associations, voluntary organisations and other projects which exist to provide accommodation for(a) the single homeless, (b) the mentally ill and (c) those leaving penal institutions or ex-offenders;

  (2) if he will give details of the additional funding he has secured to further develop voluntary after-care accommodation provided by housing associations;

  (3) what topping-up funding is available to voluntary organisations and housing associations providing special needs accommodation in 1991–92 to the homeless.

  Mr. Yeo
  Accommodation for people with special needs is to be provided under a number of Government initiatives in 1991–92 including:3,000 bedspaces funded through the Housing Corporation's approved development programme.
  60 short-term bedspaces in the Department of Health's homeless mentally ill programme.
  An allocation by the Home Office of £9,179,000 to the voluntary after-care grant scheme.
  Further funding by the Department of Social Security of the Resettlement Agency's scheme for replacing resettlement units and the funding of a number of short-term direct access hostels in London for people sleeping rough.

  Topping up is provided from a variety of sources, particularly local authorities and health and social services authorities. In addition, the Department of Health will be funding the running costs of the 60 bedspaces referred to above and the Home Office will be providing topping up funds direct to about 130 organisations.

  We do not hold an up-to-date or comprehensive list of projects providing accommodation for people with special needs. But I have arranged for the Housing Corporation to write to the hon. Member to see if they can assist her from the information they hold on schemes run by registered housing associations.

  Energy Efficiency
  Mr. Colvin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the expenditure by his Department on energy efficiency measures since 1983.

  Mr. Heseltine
  Information on the expenditure of my Department on energy efficiency measures prior to 1989–90 is not available. Expenditure on energy efficiency measures for 1989–90 is estimated to have totalled £120,000.

  Homelessness
  Mrs. Golding
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what incentives he will give local authorities to bring empty council stock back into use and to work in partnership with housing associations and voluntary organisations seeking to provide accommodation for the homeless.
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  Mr. Yeo
  We have made a special allocation of £300 million over this year and next to local authorities and housing associations in London and the south-east to provide housing for homeless families, in addition to the resources available under the housing investment programme system. A substantial proportion of the special allocation will be used to bring empty property in both sectors back into use. In addition, a further £96 million will be spent over this year and the next two years; mainly through local authorities, in providing hostel and long-term accommodation for single homeless people in central London; I very much hope that all London boroughs will co-operate positively in making these schemes work, as some have already done.

  Community Charge
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish in the Official Report, for each local authority area in England (a) the number of individuals who are liable to pay the personal community charge, (b) the number of people who are paying the personal community charge and (c) the number of people who are exempt from paying the personal community charge, separately distinguishing the numbers of exemption category.

  Mr. Key
  I am arranging for the available information, supplied by local authorities, to be placed in the Library of the House.

  The figures given for the total number of exemptions from the personal community charge include

  (i) Community charges registration officers' estimates of the numbers exempt because they are in detention, living in short stay accommodation, or persons without fixed abodes. Figures for those categories are known to be underestimated because CCROs are not obliged to keep records of those exempt.

  (ii) CCRO's estimates of the numbers excempt because they are contributors to a collective community charge.

  Separate information has not been given where there are fewer than 20 persons in a category of exemption or where the majority of authorities reported fewer than 20 persons in a category of exemption.

  London Docklands
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what amounts have been budgeted by the London Docklands development corporation for meeting the terms of the memorandum of agreement with the London borough of Newham in 1990–91, 1991–92 and 1992–93.

  Mr. Key
  I will write to the Hon. Member.

  Mobility Standard
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) how many units of housing association new build are(a) mobility standard and (b) wheelchair standard for the each year for the last five years; and of those how many units are for sheltered housing for elderly people for both (1) mobility and (2) wheelchair standard;

  (2) if he will list, for each year for the last five years, how many units of wheelchair housing of housing association new build have (a) one, (b) two and (c) three bedrooms, excluding those within sheltered housing schemes for elderly people.
  266
  Mr. Yeo
  The available information on completions of newly built specialised dwellings for 1985 to 1989 is published in table 6·7 "Housing and Construction Statistics 1979–1989: Great Britain" and, for the first half of 1990, in table 1·5 of the June quarter 1990 (Part I) edition of the same title. Wheelchair and mobility standard dwellings for the elderly are not separately identified, nor does the Department collect information about the number of specialised dwellings by number of bedrooms.

  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) how many housing association schemes have been audited since the new requirement to build to mobility standard was introduced; and of these how many met the requirement to be of mobility standard;

  (2) how many housing association schemes, which were package deal schemes, have been audited since the new requirement to build to mobility standard was introduced; and of these how many met the requirement to be of mobility standard.

  Mr. Yeo
  This is a matter for the Housing Corporation. I have therefore asked the corporation to respond to my hon. Friend direct.

  Renewable Energy
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his Department's policy on promoting the use of recycled materials and renewable energies where relevant to his Department's activities.

  Mr. Trippier
  The Government's policies for the use of recycled materials and renewable energies are set out in the White Paper, "This Common Inheritance" (Cm. 1200).

  In order to ensure that these policies are put into practice in Government, my Department's property holdings organisation is preparing an environmental action guide, which will include advice on the use of recycled material and on energy efficiency.

  My Department's policy is to use recycled materials where practicable and reasonably economic to do so.

  For instance, my Department uses recycled paper for all of its ministerial correspondence. Other products made from recycled material that are in general use within my Department include manilla paper and file covers, brown paper bags, paper towels, buff envelopes and toilet tissue. We are also conducting trials in the use of recycled paper for high speed photocopying and we are considering a trial of recycled paper for use with computer printers.

  Housing Associations
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what percentage of housing association new build came from package deal programmes in each year for the last five years.

  Mr. Yeo
  This is a matter for the Housing Corporation. I have therefore asked the corporation to respond to my hon. Friend direct.

  New Parliamentary Building
  Dr. Blackburn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if the contractor for the new parliamentary building phase I will achieve completion by 22 December 1990; and when he expects hon. Members will be able to occupy the new offices.
  267
  Mr. Yeo
  Although the contractor has made considerable progress over the past months, he has not been able to complete the contract and hand over the building to Property Holdings. It seems likely that handover will now be achieved in late February or early March. A programme is being developed to fit out the building and to arrange for a phased programme of moves for Members, their staff and the Departments of the House. It is still expected that full occupation will be achieved at the end of the summer adjournment 1991.

  Freeholds
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many houses are exempt from the provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1967 which permit leaseholders to purchase the freehold of the property.

  Sir George Young
  The Leasehold Reform Act 1967 gives leaseholders of most houses, but not leaseholders of flats, the right to purchase their freeholds. The number of dwellings exempt is not known. The Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 enables a court to order the compulsory acquisition by the leaseholders of flats of the landlord's interest in certain circumstances where he has been failing in his duties. Again, the number of exempt dwellings is not known. It is open to any leaseholder or group of leaseholders to seek to purchase the freehold of their dwelling by negotiation.

  EC Environment Council
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he will be putting forward at the next European ministerial Environment Council on 20 and 21 December on(a) the management of hazardous waste, (b) the classification, packaging and labelling of dangerous substances and (c) developing fiscal instruments to attain environmental protection and improvement objectives.

  Mr. Trippier
  The first two subjects are on the agenda for discussion at the Council on the basis of proposals submitted by the European Commission. I shall be pressing for agreement to these directives. The question of economic and fiscal mechanisms to achieve environmental objectives may also be discussed. I shall report to Parliament on the outcome of the Council in the usual way.

  Local Authority Accounts
  Sir Hugh Rossi
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has had with the Audit Commission regarding local authorities which are more than 12 months in breach of their statutory duty to produce accounts for audit; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Portillo
  The Audit Commission publishes each year a list of authorities which are in breach of their statutory duty to produce accounts for audit. It lists those which have not produced accounts by 31 December i.e. within nine months. That number fell from 80 for 1986–87 to 32 for 1987–88 and 29 for 1988–89. Our officials and the Commission's officers have discussed this position amongst other matters during their regular contacts.
  268
  Sir Hugh Rossi
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment which local authorities in England and Wales have not published their statements of account for the financial years(a) 1987–88, (b) 1986–87, (c) 1985–86 and (d) any earlier year.

  Mr. Portillo
  I regret that the Department does not have this information.

  Sir Hugh Rossi
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment against how many local authorities in breach by more than 12 months of their statutory duty to publish their accounts or produce them for audit proceedings have been instituted.

  Mr. Portillo
  None.

  Sir Hugh Rossi
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is treated as a reasonable excuse for a local authority to have failed to publish its statement of account more than 12 months after being required by statute so to do.

  Mr. Portillo
  It would be for the court to decide in the circumstances of a particular case whether there was a reasonable excuse for a local authority to have failed to publish its statement of account by the statutory time limit.

  Bathing Waters
  Sir Hugh Rossi
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress has been made in the studies and research into the effects of bathing or water sports in sea water contaminated by sewage; whether resources have been made available for the early completion of such studies and research on a comprehensive and scientifically validated basis indicated by the methodology proposed by the Langland bay study; and when the results will be made available.

  Mr. Trippier
  The Government supported further research last summer. A beach survey was undertaken at Ramsgate Sands with 2,000 beachgoers and a cohort study was conducted at Moreton (Wirral) using 310 volunteers. These further studies provided the opportunity to confirm the validity of the methodologies developed in the Langland Bay study. I expect to receive a report on these surveys next March and copies will be made available to the House.

  The Government are anxious to establish as soon as possible the health risks, if any, of bathing in sewage contaminated sea water and is commissioning further research, jointly funded with the National Rivers Authority, using the methodologies developed over the last two years.

  Community Charge
  Mrs. Mahon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if the numbers of people registered, or registerable, under the National Assistance Act 1948, are used in the formulation of the standard spending assessments for the poll tax.

  Mr. Key
  No, not as such, though such individuals will often be included on other grounds within the indicators used in the calculation of the personal social services SSA element.

  National Business Rate
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations his Department has received from the local government information unit concerning non-payment of the national business rate; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Key
  None.

  Atmospheric Pollution
  Mr. Janman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution will continue with the consultancy process that was extablished for the implementation of the EC directive on atmospheric pollution; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  My hon. Friend may have in mind the Large Combustion Plants Directive (88/609/EC). If so, I would refer him to the answer given today to my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Thompson) by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Environment and Countryside.

  Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution will be happy to continue to discuss the detailed implementation of the directive with those affected.

  Sulphur Dioxide Emissions
  Mr. Patrick Thompson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he proposes to deliver to the European Commission the United Kingdom's national programme for emission reductions of sulphur dioxide and oxides of nitrogen from existing large combustion plants.

  Mr. Trippier
  The United Kingdom is sending to the European Commission this week its programme for achieving the cuts in emissions of sulphur dioxide (SO2) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) required by the large combustion plants directive. The planned reductions in each target year are greater than those required by the directive.

  For SO2, the planned reductions from existing United Kingdom large combustion plants are 21 per cent. by 1993, 45 per cent. by 1998 and 63 per cent. by 2003, and for NOx 21 per cent. by 1993 and 35 per cent. by 1998, in each case relative to 1980. The programme incorporates a plan backed up by legally binding controls.

  The total investment of the electricity supply industry alone both on new, clean plant and new equipment for older plant over the next decade will be over £6 billion.

  The United Kingdom is submitting the programme in good time for the 31 December deadline set in the directive.

  Salford (Boundaries)
  Mr. Lewis
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to announce his decision with regard to the Local Government Boundaries Commission proposals for the city of Salford.

  Mr. Key
  Shortly.

  Business Rates
  Mr. McFall
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his latest estimate of the non-payment of business rates for the years 1989–90 and 1990–91.
  270
  Mr. Key
  I have made no such estimates.

  Oil Heaters
  Mr. Gould
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what evidence he has on the degree to which small waste oil burning appliances, used as a source of heat in garages and workshops, are contributors to airborne pollution.

  Mr. Heseltine
  There is only limited evidence of the scale of the problem, but appliances of this type are known to be sources of a variety of atmospheric pollutants, including lead and other heavy metals, hydrogen, chloride, NOx, and SO2.

  Nautical Archaeology
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he now expects to respond to the recommendations of the Joint Nautical Archaeology Policy Committee's report, "Heritage at Sea".

  Mr. Trippier
  We have responded today, and I am placing copies in the Library of the House.

  In response to the report, we have already announced two main changes. These were set out in the White Paper, "This Common Inheritance". The first is the transfer of responsibility for the protection of historic wrecks in English waters from the Department of Transport to the Department of the Environment. This will bring together control of archaeology on land with that under water. Similar transfers will take place in relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The second is the preparation of a central record of historic wrecks by the Royal Commission on the Historical Monuments of England. The commission in Scotland will be asked to take on a similar responsibility. In Wales, the Welsh Office will be reviewing the new work with the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments in Wales.

  In the fuller response made today, we say that we are ready to develop, in discussion with the organisations concerned, a code of practice for sea-bed operators whose activities could affect wreck sites. We are also willing to exercise Government powers of ownership, where these can be established, in favour of conserving wreck sites and the artefacts recovered from them. We will consider sympathetically applications for special grant for the development of diver training in the skills required for underwater archaeology. We also make a commitment to make the best of existing salvage reporting arrangements to encourage important finds to be properly conserved and displayed.

  The Government do not accept that there is a need for a new agency or legislation, but we intend to make the best use of the powers and resources available in the interests of conservation, and to review these matters once the new allocation of responsibilities has had time to take effect.

  The Government are grateful to the joint committee for its work and hopes to have the benefit of its expertise and advice again on these matters in future.

  Travellers
  Mr. Colvin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he now proposes to relax planning controls over sites for travelling showpeople.
  271
  Mr. Yeo
  I have considered carefully, in the light of the responses to my Department's consultation paper "Sites for Travelling Showpeople", whether to introduce permitted development rights for the stationing of up to five caravans, inhabited by travelling showpeople and their families, and for the storage and maintenance of their fairground equipment.

  I do not underestimate the difficulties which some showpeople have experienced in obtaining sites with planning permission from which to base their activities. However, the consultation exercise has highlighted the difficulty of reconciling any relaxation of planning control with safeguarding local amenity and the environment. Accordingly, I have decided not to introduce permitted development rights to establish sites for travelling showpeople.

  My Department will, however, issue fresh guidance to local planning authorities which will emphasise that, both in formulating local and unitary development plan policies and in development control decisions, authorities should take full account of travelling showpeople's requirements for secure, long-term sites. My officials will work closely with the Showmen's Guild of Great Britain in preparing the guidance.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list any opinion surveys conducted by, for or on behalf of his Department since 1 January 1985 giving the date and purpose of each survey.

  Mr. Heseltine
  [holding answer 17 December 1990]: Since 1 January 1985 the Department of the Environment has commissioned numerous surveys, including many small surveys, to local authorities, businesses and the general public. Some of these contained questions about opinions but a list of such surveys is not readily available.

  Anglian Coastal Study
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment on what date he received the Anglian coastal study; and if he will now place a copy in the Library.

  Mr. Maclean
  I have been asked to reply.

  The initial phases of this study are complete and resulting data has been made available to interested parties. The remaining phase which should be completed next summer concentrates on field measurement which will provide valuable data for the detailed design of coastal defence. This information which will be the main output of the third phase will be stored in detabases managed by the Anglian region of the National Rivers Authority. The information will be made available to coastal defence authorities in the region and to this Department.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Schools Budgets
  Mr. Jopling
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what would be the extra amount of money available to each school in Cumbria if 85 per cent. of the potential schools budget for the current year had been distributed under the conditions of his announcement of 11 December,Official Report, column 324.
  272
  Mr. Fallon
  In the current year, Cumbria is delegating 82·53 per cent. of its potential schools budget. If that was increased to 85 per cent., on average that would release £7,440 to each school.

  Notes:

  1. Cumbria's potential schools budget in 1990–91 is £112·69 million.

  2. Cumbria has 374 schools, of which 330 primary and 44 secondary.

  3. The amount per school in the answer is rounded to the nearest £10.

  Dental Schools
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give for each category A dental school(a) the number of unfilled technical jobs in biochemistry departments and (b) when he expects them to be filled.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  Information is not collected centrally about such local management matters.

  Cerebral Palsy
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what advice he gives to local education authorities concerning the funding of places in charitable and private institutions assisting cerebral palsy sufferers; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Fallon
  Advice to local education authorities concerning the placement of children with statements in independent schools and non-maintained special schools is contained in circular 22/89, "Assessments and Statements of Special Educational Needs: Procedures within the Education, Health and Social Services".

  Hornsey Centre for Children Learning
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received concerning the funding of the Hornsey centre for children learning; and if he will make a statement on its future.

  Mr. Fallon
  My right hon. and learned Friend has received a number of representations expressing concern about the future of the Hornsey centre for children learning. As we have made clear in replying to such letters, while we are sympathetic to these difficulties and acknowledge the work of the Hornsey centre, there is no prospect of the Department's being able to provide financial assistance.

  London Education Authorities
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will list the total spending for the Inner London education authority for each year since 1980 and what proportion of its income was from central government sources; and if he will also list the spending figures for 1990–91 for each of the successor education authorities and the proportion of their income that is drawn from central Government sources.

  Mr. Fallon
  The net expenditure of the Inner London authority as recorded on the revenue outturn returns made to the Department of the Environment is shown in the table for all years from 1980–81 to 1988–89. Figures for the
  273
  outturn expenditure in 1989–90 are not yet available. Grants received by the ILEA are shown for the same years. No rate support grant was received by the authority during this period because of its very high rateable resources. Consistent education budget figures for all the inner London boroughs for 1990–91 are not yet available.

  Net spending of the Inner London education authority 1980–81 to 1989–90

  Year

  Net expenditure £ million1

  Specific grant income £ million2

  Specific grants as percentage of net expenditure

  1980–81

  674·5

  12·7

  1·9

  1981–82

  743·8

  14·5

  1·9

  1982–83

  803·3

  15·4

  1·9

  1983–84

  870·9

  15·1

  1·7

  1985–86

  956·1

  20·3

  2·1

  1984–85

  924·4

  17·2

  1·9

  1986–87

  1,033·0

  24·9

  2·4

  1987–88

  1,097·2

  31·1

  2·9

  1988–89

  1,074·8

  41·3

  3·8

  1 Net expenditure as reported on the Form RO1.

  2 The figures for grant exclude specific grant aid in support of mandatory awards, which has also been excluded from the expenditure column.

  Special Purpose Grant
  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether his Department, in calculating the special purpose grant (Development) for grant-maintained schools, takes into account the local education authority contribution to education support grant and local education authority training grants; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  The LEA contribution to expenditure supported by education support grants and local education authority training grants is treated as part of central LEA costs of which grant-maintained schools receive a per capita amount as part of their annual maintenance grant. Special purpose grant (development) is calculated by reference to the education support grants and local education authority training grants paid to LEAs.

  Geography
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he now expects to lay draft statutory orders for geography in the national curriculum.

  Mr. Eggar
  My right hon. and learned Friend is considering the recommendations on geography in the national curriculum made to him recently by the National Curriculum Council. He hopes to issue a draft order for consultation in time to introduce national curriculum geography in key stages 1, 2 and 3 in autumn 1991.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science, further to his answer of 17 December to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, if he will place the surveys listed in the Library.

  Mr. Eggar
  A copy of each of these reports on these projects, when completed, is placed in the Department's library and is available to researchers there. It has not been our practice to place copies elsewhere.

  Bullers Wood School
  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received about his decision to approve the catchment area for Bullers Wood grant-maintained school in the London borugh of Bromley; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  My right hon. and learned Friend approved Bullers Wood school as grant maintained on 10 October 1990. To date, no representations regarding this decision have been received by the Department directly relating to the admissions arrangements.

  Proposals by a school for grant-maintained status must contain the proposed admissions arrangements. My right hon. and learned Friend will continue to consider these on their merits taking all relevant factors, including any comments or objections, into account.

  Pre-school Education
  Mr. Anthony Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has received the report of the committee of inquiry into the educational experience which should be offered to three and four-year-olds; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  My right hon. and learned Friend is today publishing the report, a copy of which has been placed in the Library. It treats the range of factors affecting the quality of provision carefully and helpfully. My right hon. and learned Friend and I are very grateful to our hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Mrs. Angela Rumbold) and the members of her committee for this valuable contribution to the development of thinking about education before the age of five.

  The report comes at a time of significantly increased financial provision for the education of the under-fives. In real terms, LEA expenditure on the under-fives is almost half as high again as it was a decade ago; and the proportion of under-fives in education has increased by over 17 per cent. at a time when the birth rate has been rising.

  Against this background of growing participation, the Government believe that the existing diversity of provision for the under-fives, involving the private, voluntary and local authority sectors, is healthy and should be encouraged. Good-quality provision can make a valuable contribution to young children's development. The Government consider that parents are the best judges of their children's needs: some will prefer to make provision in the home for constructive play and early learning activities; some will look to playgroups; and others will seek nursery or infant classes or day nurseries. We are sending copies of the report to all local education and social services authorities; it will be for them to consider how the report should be acted on in their areas, but we hope that it will be carefully studied by local authorities and by all those working in the field.

  This Department is working closely with the Department of Health to ensure that within the diversity of provision, there is a clear framework for local action on services for pre-school children; my right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State announced the introduction of an education support grant for 1991–92 and the succeeding year to help authorities improve the planning and co-ordination of services for the under-fives, and my right

  275
  hon. and learned Friend has recently announced a significant enhancement of my Department's grants to the Pre-school Playgroups Association and to the British Association for Early Childhood Education.

  Financial Year

  £ thousands

  Education and Library Board

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  Belfast

  Number of advisers

  7

  6

  6

  5

  8

  Cost

  158

  154

  161

  144

  233

  North-Eastern

  Number of advisers

  14

  14

  10

  9

  14

  Cost

  309

  352

  270

  261

  384

  South-Eastern

  Number of advisers

  8

  8

  7

  7

  12

  Cost

  202

  205

  205

  202

  381

  Southern

  Number of advisers

  1

  2

  2

  3

  12

  Cost

  23

  48

  53

  70

  371

  Western

  Number of advisers

  5

  5

  5

  5

  12

  Cost

  98

  113

  131

  137

  288

  Secondary School Pupils
  Mr. Peter Robinson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what was the number of children of secondary school age in each Eastern education and library board area over the last 10 years.

  Year

  Belfast

  Western

  North-Eastern

  South-Eastern

  Southern

  1981

  36,869

  27,503

  36,353

  27,586

  31,171

  1982

  35,956

  27,555

  36,655

  27,907

  31,503

  1983

  33,049

  27,550

  36,736

  27,902

  31,655

  1984

  33,619

  27,735

  36,730

  27,560

  32,147

  1985

  32,490

  27,573

  36,603

  27,331

  32,188

  1986

  31,462

  27,369

  35,765

  26,607

  31,714

  1987

  30,345

  27,158

  34,589

  25,913

  31,081

  1988

  29,090

  26,706

  33,548

  25,163

  30,493

  1989

  28,929

  26,766

  32,659

  24,591

  30,154

  1990

  28,452

  26,442

  31,847

  24,316

  29,876

  Fallen Animals
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the health and environmental implications of the decision by animal by-product plants not to accept fallen animals for disposal; and what proposals he has to provide alternative means of disposal of such animals in the Strangford constituency.

  Mr. A. Cecil Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the health and environmental implications of the decision by animal by-product plants not to accept fallen animals for disposal; and what proposals he has to provide alternative means of disposal of such animals in north Belfast.

  Mr. Molyneaux
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the health and environmental

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Education and library Boards (Advisers)
  Mr. Peter Robinson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what was the number of advisers employed by each education and library board over the last five years and the cost of employing these advisers over the last five years.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Actual expenditure is not available in the form requested, but the following table has been prepared based on expenditure shown in boards' revised financial schemes.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The numbers are as follows:

  implications of the decision by animal by-product plants not to accept fallen animals for disposal; and what proposals he has to provide alternative means of disposal of such animals in Lagan Valley.

  Mr. Beggs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the health and environmental implications of the decision by animal by-product plants not to accept fallen animals for disposal; and what proposals he has to provide alternative means of disposal of such animals in east Antrim.

  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the health and environmental implications of the decision by animal by-product plants not to accept fallen animals for disposal; and what proposals he has to provide alternative means of disposal of such animals in South Antrim.
  277
  Rev. Martin Smyth
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the health and environmental implications of the decision by animal by-product plants not to accept fallen animals for disposal; and what proposals he has to provide alternative means of disposal of such animals in Belfast, South.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the health and environmental implications of the decision by animal by-product plants not to accept fallen animals for disposal; and what proposals he has to provide alternative means of disposal of such animals in east Londonderry.

  Mr. Hanley
  I refer the hon. Gentlemen to the reply I gave the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) on 18 December at column 142.

  Building Work
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will publish tables showing(a) the number of new buildings, (b) the amount spent on new buildings, (c) the amount spent on repairs and maintenance and (d) the amount spent on building renovation by his Department in each of the last five years.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 5 December 1990]: I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Departmental Appointees
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the annual cost of fees and reimbursements to people appointed to(a) public, (b) non-governmental and (c) other bodies by his Department.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 5 December 1990]: I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Advertising
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will publish a table showing the amount spent in each of the last five years by his Department on(a) advertising in the press, (b) advertising on television and radio, (c) other advertising and promotion and (d) promotion videos and sound cassettes.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 11 December 1990]: I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list any opinion surveys conducted by, for or on behalf of his Department since 1 January 1985, giving the date and purpose of each survey.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 17 December 1990]: I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Arms Control
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the work of the new joint arms control implementation group.
  278
  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  My hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces explained the role of the joint arms control implementation group in his written answer on 6 March at column 622. The group is responsible to the Secretary of State for Defence for practical implementation of our obligations and exercise of our rights in the verification of arms control agreements.

  Washington Embassy
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has any plans to revise the size of the staff at the United Kingdom embassy in Washington DC.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  None at present; staffing levels in Washington, like those for all British missions abroad, are regularly reviewed to ensure that they are appropriate to requirements.

  Geneva Convention
  Mr. Ernie Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will propose to the United Nations Security Council a draft resolution reminding all states party to the Geneva convention of their legal duty to prosecute in the case of prima facie evidence of grave breaches of the Geneva convention by persons of any nationality.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  States party to the Geneva conventions are well aware of their legal duties since they have an obligation to ensure that grave breaches of the conventions are an offence under their national legislation.

  Argentina
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what matters, in regard to nuclear weapons testing and prospects for Argentina signing the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, were discussed with his Argentine counterparts or officials from the Argentine Foreign Ministry during the visit of Foreign Minister Cavallo to London on 11 December.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Mr. Cavallo took the opportunity of his visit to explain details of the joint declaration of 28 November on the common nuclear policy of Argentina and Brazil.

  Israel
  Mr. Ernie Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action he intends taking as a state signatory to the fourth Geneva convention if the Israeli Government proceed with their declared intention to deport members of the Palestinian civilian population of the west bank and Gaza who are protected persons under the provisions of the fourth Geneva convention.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have made it clear that any such deportations would violate international law. We urge the Israeli Government not to proceed with them.

  Belligerent Occupation
  Mr. Ernie Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will propose a draft resolution to the United Nations Security Council naming states recognised by the international consensus as being engaged in belligerent occupation.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  No, because it would be difficult to reach international consensus on such a list of states.

  Mr. Ernie Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will propose to the United Nations Security Council a draft resolution reminding all states engaged in belligerent occupation of the implications of grave breaches of the Geneva convention, with particular regard to those states' treatment of the civilian population who are under occupation.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  No. The obligations of states party to the Fourth Geneva convention were reiterated by the Security Council in its resolution 674 with reference to the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait.

  Mr. Salman Rushdie
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) whether he will ask the Iranian ambassador to call on him to discuss the renewal of the death threat on Mr. Salman Rushdie by the Iranian Minister for Islamic Religious Affairs and the implications for international laws protecting individuals;

  (2) what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking following the renewal of the death threat on Mr. Salman Rushdie by the Iranian Minister for Islamic Religious Affairs; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Our chargé d'affaires in Tehran has expressed to the Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs our concern about certain recent statements made in Iran about Mr. Rushdie. We continue to understand that the Iranian Government respect international law and would not interfere in the internal affairs of any other country, any more than the United Kingdom would.

  The Gulf
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if any matters in regard to the proliferation of nuclear weapons in the Gulf region were discussed during the meeting of Foreign Affairs Ministers at the inter-governmental conference in Rome.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  No.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will place in the Library the surveys listed in his answer of 17 December to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  No. The surveys were commissioned on a private basis and were not intended to be made public.

  Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has received any information, in the context of the United Kingdom's role 280
  as a depository power for the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, concerning progress made in discussions between the respective Prime Ministers of North and South Korea on 11 December in particular in regard to the implementation of nuclear safeguards regimes in their respective countries, pursuant to each country's membership of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  No.

  West Bank and Gaza
  Mr. Ernie Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will ask the Israeli Government to act in conformity with their obligation under the fourth Geneva convention concerning the protection of the civilian population of the West Bank and Gaza.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have reminded the Israeli Government many times of its obligation to administer the occupied territories in accordance with the provisions of the fourth Geneva convention.

  Iraq
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information he possesses concerning the roles of the Iraqi state organisation for technical industries and the Iraqi military industrial commission in procuring nuclear or other sensitive technology and material usable in a nuclear weapons programme.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  In the present circumstances, it would not be appropriate to divulge information of this kind.

  Immigration
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when Her Majesty's Government will introduce their centrally organised scheme for DNA testing in immigration cases; and whether any changes are proposed to entry clearance fees.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  We have for some time now accepted that DNA profiling appears to be the most accurate method available for determining parentage in immigration cases. Several thousand cases have been satisfactorily determined on that basis through tests commissioned and paid for by the applicants themselves. My right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State for the Home Department announced on 14 June 1989 our intention to introduce a Government scheme for DNA testing as a means of resolving first time settlement applications where the relationship could not otherwise be established.

  The necessary arrangements have now been completed and contracts awarded to two British companies, Cellmark Diagnostics Ltd. and University Diagnostics Ltd., to carry out DNS tests. In suitable cases, entry clearance officers at British diplomatic posts overseas will now be able to offer to arrange tests which will be carried out by these independent scientific experts on a commercial basis. As my right hon. Friend indicated in June 1989, DNA testing will not be offered as a matter of routine and will not be compulsory.
  281
  ECOs will offer to arrange tests with the consent of the applicant and sponsor in cases where the relevant relationships cannot be demonstrated easily by other means. If an applicant or his sponsor declines to undergo a test, that would not of itself be a ground for refusing the application. But if an ECO is not satisfied about the relationship on the basis of the evidence before him, the applicant will now have the option of taking a DNA test to resolve the matter. We believe that this will go a long way towards making disputes about family relationships a thing of the past.

  In considering how to finance the scheme, we have sought to avoid imposing a significant burden either upon individual applicants who are invited to take a DNA test, or upon the taxpayer. The cost of such tests will therefore be covered by an increase in the fee charged for lodging all settlement applications. This increase will also cover the rise in administrative costs.

  Revised fees are to be introduced with effect from 14 January 1991. These were approved by the Privy Council on 19 December. The principal fees will be as follows:

  £

  Single entry clearance

  20

  no change

  Single entry clearance for those

  10

  new category

  applicants under 25 years of age

  Double entry clearance

  30

  no change

  Multiple entry clearance

  —for two years validity

  40

  reduction of £4

  —for five years validity

  85

  new category

  Application for settlement or marriage

  80

  increase of £20

  Other long term entry clearances

  60

  no change

  Foreign Affairs Council
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish in the Official Report a statement on the outcome of the Foreign Affairs Council on 18 December.

  Mr. Hurd
  A meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council took place in Brussels on 18 and 19 December. My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, represented the United Kingdom.

  The Council discussed Mediterranean policy and reached informal agreement on the aid and trade aspects of the Community's relations with the Mediterranean for 1991–96. Informal agreement was also reached on the Asia and Latin America programme for 1991–95, and the resources to be allocated to it.

  The Council adopted negotiating mandates for association agreements with Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Negotiations will begin on 20 December. A mandate was also agreed for the negotiations of a customs union with San Marino. The Council reviewed progress on the negotiations between the Community and the European Free Trade Association on the creation of a European economic area and endorsed steps to move the negotiations forward at the EC/EFTA ministerial meeting on 19 December.

  The Council reached agreement on the negotiating mandate for a new financial protocol to the EC/Yugoslavia co-operation agreement. A meeting of the EC/Yugoslavia Co-operation Council took place in the margins, as did a meeting of the EC/Egypt Co-operation Council.
  282
  On the Gulf, Ministers reaffirmed their position that any meeting between the Iraqi Foreign Minister and the EC presidency must follow and not precede a meeting between President Bush and the Iraqis.

  Mercenaries
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government intend to sign the international convention against the recruitment, use, financing and training of mercenaries.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  We do not intend to sign the convention, which would be difficult to implement in United Kingdom law. We will continue to keep the question of mercenaries under review.

TRANSPORT

  Bus Services
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if his Department has considered research conducted by the National Consumer Council into the use, frequency and standards of bus services since deregulation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  A copy of the National Consumer Council's report, "Have the buses caught up yet?" was sent to my Department in October. The responsibility for providing bus services and information about them is, under the Transport Act 1985, for bus operators and local authorities and I have suggested that the NCC should make their useful review readily available to those bodies.

  Speedlink
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is his estimate of the effect of the closure of the Speedlink rail freight service on the number of lorry loads per day on Scotland's road network.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail is still in discussion with customers about Speedlink traffic following its announcement last week that the Speedlink network will close in July 1991. In Scotland, BR expects to retain up to half of the domestic freigh carried by Speedlink, and BR currently estimates that the maximum effect will be no more than 150 extra lorryloads a day on Scotland's roads.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what research was carried out into the effect which the cessation of the Speedlink service would have on employment in Scotland, and in particular within the Highlands and Islands; and if he will place full details of research in the Library.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail currently employs about 250 people in Scotland specifically on Speedlink traffic, and expects to deploy many of them to other work, including alternative trainload services. British Rail is still in discussion with customers about their Speedlink traffic and the effects on employment by BR customers, road hauliers and others cannot be assessed at present.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what research was carried out into the effect
  283
  which the cessation of the speedlink service would have upon the timber industry in Scotland; and if he will place full details of any such research in the Library.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail is still in discussion with timber industry customers about their speedlink traffic, but BR currently understands that alternative transport arrangements will be made by the timber industry for any traffic not retained on rail.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will disclose the findings of any research carried out into the effect which the impending cessation of British Rail speedlink service may have upon the volume of freight traffic on the road network; and if he will place full details of any such research in the Library.

  Mr. Freeman
  BR currently estimates that the maximum increase in road freight will be 1.5 million tonnes—equivalent to some 0·06 per cent. of total United Kingdom freight.

  M42-M40 Junction
  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when the junction of the M42 motorway and M40 motorway was opened; when its use was restricted by cones; how many cones are being used at this junction at present; what is the estimated cost of these cones; and when he expects these cones to be removed.

  Mr. Chope
  The M40-M42 junction opened on 19 December 1989. Cones have restricted the M40 to M42 northbound link road to a single lane since opening. From 8 October 1990 cones have been used throughout the interchange as part of various traffic management measures during the layout alterations presently being undertaken there. The cost of cones is included in the price for the work. Subject to favourable weather conditions the carriageway layout alterations are expected to be completed and the cones removed for Christmas.

  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the purpose of the work being undertaken at the junction of the M40 motorway and M42 motorway; what is the cost of this work; when this work began; when he expects this work to be completed; and why this work was not undertaken during the construction of this junction.

  Mr. Chope
  A £1·5 million contract commenced on 8 October 1990 to improve traffic flows at the M40-M42 junction. Subject to favourable weather conditions, the carriageway layout alterations are expected to be complete for Christmas. Traffic flows through the junction have increased significantly since the start of work on the M40 Warwick section. So as to avoid the risk of delay to that contract a separate contract for the improvement of the junction was let.

  Aston Expressway
  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the estimated daily cost to the public as a result of the closure of the slip road between the Aston expressway and spaghetti junction in Birmingham.

  Mr. Chope
  The closure of the slip roads between Aston expressway and the Tyburn road has diverted traffic onto 284
  the local road network. The Department does not have a traffic model of this network and can not therefore calculate the additional cost of traffic delays and increased journey times.

  It is understood that Birmingham city council engineer's department have made an approximate estimate of the delay cost at £20,000 per working day.

  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he expects the slip road between the Aston expressway and spaghetti junction in Birmingham to be reopened before 26 August 1991.

  Mr. Chope
  The slip roads between Tyburn road and Aston expressway should be re-opened to traffic by July 1991.

  Railways Act 1974 (Grant)
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the allowable cost per sensitive lorry mile as used for determination of eligibility for grant under section 8 of the Railways Act 1974 for each year of operation; and whether he will take steps to widen the definition of sensitive lorry mile, and introduce a sliding scale of allowable cost giving a high level of potential grant towards urban single carriageways tapering to a lower level for uncongested rural motorways.

  Mr. Freeman
  The prevailing cost ceiling per sensitive lorry mile for grants under section 8 of the Railways Act 1974 is as follows:

  Year

  SLM ceiling (cash) pence

  1975–81

  25

  1981–82

  30

  1982–84

  45

  1984–85

  47

  1986–89

  28

  1990

  34

  The ceiling was reduced at the end of 1985 to accord with the implied weighting attributable to environmental factors in new road assessment.

  The definition of a sensitive lorry mile, and the monetary valuation ascribed to each SLM, are issues being addressed by a current internal Department review of freight facilities grants.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what process of monitoring and checking exists for ensuring that sums paid out in grant under section 8 of the Railways Act 1974 are actually expended for the purposes for which they were made; and if he will review the adequacy of such processes.

  Mr. Freeman
  Instalments of grant are paid against claims certified by independent auditors. A proportion of grant is retained until Departmental officials have visited the site to verify that grant-aided facilities are in place. The traffic actually carried by grant-aided facilities is monitored annually throughout the period (usually 10 years) over which the application for grant was assessed. The adequacy of these grant mechanisms is being considered as part of the current review of freight facilities grants.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list for each year since inception, the
  285
  total sums paid out in grants made under section 8 of the Railways Act 1974; and if he will place in the Library details of each recipient of such grant, the amount or amounts involved, those which are no longer in use, and those which following the cessation of the British Rail speedlink service will no longer be used.

  Mr. Freeman
  Since 1975, grants under section 8 of the Railways Act 1974 have been awarded as follows:

  Year

  £ million (cash)

  1975

  0·5

  1976

  2·3

  1977

  4·0

  1978

  9·0

  1979

  4·7

  1980

  7·6

  1981

  4·3

  1982

  3·4

  1983

  6·0

  1984

  7·5

  1985

  9·0

  1986

  2·7

  1987

  2·6

  1988

  0·7

  1989

  4·1

  1990

  0·8

  The figures are rounded and comprise grants awarded in England, Scotland and Wales. Grants in Scotland and Wales are administered by the Scottish Development Department and Welsh Office respectively. Information in the form requested concerning recipients of grant and the amounts involved is being compiled. It will be placed in the Library shortly. Information concerning the continued use of grant-aided facilities is commercially sensitive.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the average time taken to process applications for grant under section 8 of the Railways Act 1974 between submission of grant application until final approval for each of the last 15 years; and whether he will review the procedures governing such applications.

  Mr. Freeman
  The Department does not record the information requested and it could not be produced except at disproportionate cost. The procedures for processing grant applications are being considered as part of the current review of freight facilities grants.

  M6 (Gravelly Hill Interchange)
  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what were the technical matters which needed to be resolved before work on a replacement structure at the Gravelly hill interchange of the M6 motorway could begin and were still to be resolved on 28 November; and who has been responsible for the resolution of these technical matters.

  Mr. Chope
  By 28 November the only outstanding matters were the refinement of the repair options and the assessment of the sub-structure and of the damage to the adjacent bridge span. These issues were resolved by 3 December.

  My Department was responsible for the resolution of these technical matters.

  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects the work on a replacement 286
  structure at the Gravelly hill interchange of the M6 motorway to begin; when he expects this work to be completed; which contractor is going to be employed for this work; what is the value of the contract for this work; and who will pay for this work.

  Mr. Chope
  Three separate contracts are to be employed for the repair work. These three contracts are presently at various stages of tender and award. One has been awarded to Thermic UK Ltd. for demolition of the damaged structure in the sum of £137,262. The Department is about to let a contract for the fabrication of steelwork and has invited tenders for the main construction work. Some works preparatory to the start of demolition are already in hand.

  It is hoped that all works will be complete by the end of July 1991.

  The damage resulting from the accident is the subject of an insurance claim.

  Mr. Rooker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how long the special scaffolding under one row of columns supporting the M6 motorway at the Gravelly Hill interchange has been in place; what is the purpose and cost; and who was responsible for checking the calculations as to its stability.

  Mr. Chope
  Two contracts are currently in progress at Gravelly Hill interchange and both involve scaffolding around the viaduct supports. One contract started in December 1989 and the other in August 1990. The scaffolding provides a working platform for the contractors and does not support the viaducts. In one contract there is a substantial temporary steel truss which allows areas of concrete to be broken out while traffic is still using the viaduct.

  The design and the check of the working platform scaffold is the responsibility of the contractor. Any temporary support to the motorway viaduct structure is designed and checked by the Department's consulting engineers. The costs of the scaffold and temporary supports are not immediately available and I will write to the hon. Member further on this.

  Hazardous Cargoes
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent assessments he has made and plans to make in evaluating the comparative safety of transporting ammunition by road or by rail.

  Mr. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what research and research projects have been carried out or commissioned by his Department for each of the last five years, relating to the transportation of hazardous and inflammable goods by road; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The Health and Safety Commission's advisory committee on dangerous substances subcommittee is studying the major hazards aspects of the transport of such substances. The report of that work, which includes a quantified risk assessment of the transport of specific substances including explosives by road and by rail, is due next year.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport why a train carrying spent nuclear fuel flasks was taken
  287
  into sidings at Bletchley on the morning of 23 November; what risks were posed by the halting of the train to the people of Bletchley and Milton Keynes; what emergency procedures were set in action; and how many such nuclear trains have been halted non-routinely in sidings over the past year.

  Mr. Freeman
  I understand from British Rail that a Temple Mills-Crewe nuclear flask train was stopped when one of its vehicles activated a hot axle-box detector at the approach to Bletchley. It was taken forward into a loop line where it was examined, but no fault found. The fire brigade was in attendance and the police were on stand-by while the examination was taking place. There was no risk to local residents. There is no requirement for such incidents, in which neither an accident has occurred nor any fault has been found, to be reported to Her Majesty's railways inspectorate.

  Dial-A-Ride
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects the London Dial-A-Ride regionalisation proposals to be tested in a trial region; and which region this will be.

  Mr. Freeman
  London Transport is responsible for administering the London Dial-A-Ride scheme, which is funded by Government grant. They have been considering plans to regionalise the service for over two years, with a view to obtaining a more efficient service for users and better value for money.

  In order to develop detailed workable proposals in one region before agreeing to full regionalisation, LT held discussions with existing management committees of the six services in north-east London. As a result of those discussions, LT are now convinced of the benefits which full regionalisation will bring. I understand they are therefore developing regional boards of user representatives throughout London which will be responsible for introducing regional management structures and regional policies over the next 12–18 months. London Transport have no plans to test the benefits in a trial region before full implementation.

  Road Accidents (Freight Transport)
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the number of fatalities, and the number of serious injuries arising from(a) road accidents involving heavy goods vehicles and (b) freight trains, in each of the last fifteen years.

  Mr. Freeman
  (a) The information requested is given in the table for the years 1979 to 1989. Information for earlier years is only available at disproportionate cost.

  (a) Casualties in road accidents involving heavy goods vehicles: Great Britain: 1979 to 1989

  Year

  Killed

  Seriously injured

  All KSI1

  1979

  1,063

  5,878

  6,941

  1980

  859

  5,119

  5,978

  1981

  851

  4,919

  5,770

  1982

  875

  4,816

  5,691

  1983

  811

  4,244

  5,055

  1984

  876

  4,476

  5,352

  1985

  811

  4,331

  5,142

  1986

  908

  4,391

  5,299

  288

  Year

  Killed

  Seriously injured

  All KSI1

  1987

  910

  4,380

  5,290

  1988

  900

  4,655

  5,555

  1989

  989

  4,780

  5,769

  1 Killed or seriously injured.

  (b) The information requested in relation to freight trains is not readily available.

  A10 (Hoddesdon-Cambridge)
  Mr. Ian Stewart
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to appoint consultants to carry out the A10 Hoddesdon to Cambridge study.

  Mr. Chope
  Early in the new year.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list the surveys referred to in his answer of 17 December to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The list comprises about 370 surveys and I am therefore sending it separately to the hon. Member.

  Channel Tunnel
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will estimate the sum which British Rail is planning to invest in order to exploit the opportunities offered by the channel tunnel and provide a breakdown of the projects involved and the amount of money to be spent on each programme.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail currently plans to invest around £1·5 billion (in 1990–91 prices) to provide inter-national rail services in the early years after the tunnel opens. Major projects already approved by the Government include some £400 million for inter-capital passenger trains, over £100 million for the terminal at Waterloo, £75 million for a maintenance depot in west London, £80 million for the first batch of international freight locomotives and Tonbridge-Redhill electrification. BR's plans also include a station at Ashford, night and north of London passenger services and further investment in freight facilities. In addition we expect in the spring to receive British Rail's proposals for a new line between London and the tunnel.

  M40 Motorway
  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects the M40 motorway to be completed and available for public use.

  Mr. Chope
  The M40 motorway is expected to be completed and open to traffic by mid-January 1991.

  Road Closures (Bad Weather)
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport on how many occasions in each of the last 10 years were the A62, M62, A66 and A69 respectively, closed due to inclement weather.

  Mr. Chope
  The information (by financial year) is as follows:
  289

  M62

  A62

  A66

  A69

  1981–82

  1

  2

  n/a

  0

  1982–83

  0

  0

  n/a

  0

  1983–84

  0

  2

  n/a

  0

  1984–85

  0

  0

  n/a

  0

  1985–86

  0

  2

  8

  0

  1986–87

  1

  1

  1

  0

  1987–88

  0

  0

  2

  0

  1988–89

  0

  0

  1

  0

  1989–90

  0

  0

  3

  0

  1990–91

  0

  1

  1

  0

  Contract

  Contractor

  Contract dates for completion

  Gaydon Contract

  R. M. Douglas Construction Ltd.

  1 January 1991

  Banbury Bypass—Contract IV

  Balfour Beatty

  9 December 1990

  Banbury Bypass—Contract III

  Tarmac Construction Ltd.

  18 November 1990

  Banbury Bypass—Contract II

  John Mowlem and Company

  12 June 1990

  Banbury Bypass—Contract I

  Tarmac Construction Ltd.

  26 February 1991

  Waterstock to Wendlebury

  McAlpine/Fairclough Venture

  26 May 1991

  The complete road is due to be opened in mid-January 1991.

  Mr. Rooker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if bonus or enhancement payments have been paid to contractors meeting earlier deadlines for construction of sections of the M40 motorway.

  Mr. Chope
  Yes.

  Mr. Rooker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the expected cost of construction for each of the remaining sections of the M40 motorway.

  Mr. Chope
  The tender prices submitted by the successful contractors for each of the remaining section of the M40 motorway are as follows:

  £

  Gaydon

  33,989,302

  Banbury contract 4

  51,712,702

  Banbury contract 3

  52,199,044

  Banbury contract 2

  17,910,558

  Banbury contract 1

  24,197,510

  Waterstock-Wendlebury

  64,100,727

  Final costs are not available.

  Transport Council
  Mr. Hind
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the outcome of the meeting of the European Community Transport Council on 17 and 18 December.

  Mr. Rifkind
  I attended the meeting of the European Council of Transport Ministers which was held in Brussels on 17–18 December.

  I am pleased with the progress made at the Council.

  On inland transport, the Council agreed a road haulage package which included a 40 per cent. increase in Community road haulage quotas for each of the years 1991 and 1992; an additional one-off increase in the EC quota to take account of German unification; and measures to be taken in the event of a "crisis" in the road
  290
  These figures do not include very short-term closures to permit clearance of the carriageway following accidents or vehicle breakdown associated with inclement weather.

  M40
  Mr. Rooker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will set out the contract dates for completion of each remaining section of the M40 motorway; and if he will list the main contractor for each section.

  Mr. Chope
  The contract dates for completion of each remaining section of the M40 motorway and the main contractors are as follows:

  haulage market. Agreement was also reached on a regulation to increase the maximum permitted length of road trains from 18·0 m to 18·35 m; and on a directive on combined transport which will give a useful stimulus to this mode of transport.

  Other inland transport matters were also discussed, but without conclusions being reached. The Council briefly noted the Commisssion's recent proposals on vehicle tax harmonisation. On third country transit, the Commission reported that while the negotiations on third country transit with Yugoslavia were within sight of a successful conclusion, those with Austria and Switzerland had made much less progress. It was nevertheless agreed to continue bilateral negotiations with the Alpine countries for a further six months. The Commission also reported that its working group had reached agreement on guidelines for a high speed rail network. Ministers resolved that further work should be undertaken, including the commercial evaluation of possible network links. There was a brief discussion of road safety issues.

  On air transport, measures were agreed on air cargo services and denied boarding compensation; there was some discussion of predatory practices; and the Commission reported on negotiations with Norway and Sweden. The air cargo measure covers scheduled and non-scheduled services conducted as purely cargo operations. It provides liberalised access to the air cargo market and is the basis for further measures to create a truly single market in this sector by 1992. The other agreed measure provides for the payment of minimum levels of compensation to passengers who are denied boarding on a flight onto which they were booked. On predatory practices I reiterated the United Kingdom's strongly held view that adequate measures must be put in place to prevent unfair practices by air carriers. The Commission's proposal will be brought back to the Council after further work has been done on it.

  On shipping, the Commission was given a firm remit to prepare proposals for a two stage approach to cabotage liberalisation, in which the main phase would be completed by the end of 1993. The second phase, service between the mainland and islands and between islands,

  291
  would follow after an interval yet to be agreed. This was a major step forward and I hope that we make good progress on the detail under the next Presidency.

  The Council also agreed in principle to a regulation facilitating the transfer of vessels from one member state's register to another to free shipowners from the costs and administrative procedures involved in a change of register within the Community. This is a useful measure which is very much in the spirit of the single market. Other shipping items included a progress report from the Commission on their package of proposals for the second stage of Community shipping policy; a discussion of the draft rules of procedure for the UNCTAD liner code review conference; and a discussion of negotiations with west and central African countries.

  Civil Aviation Authority
  Mr. Knapman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether the Civil Aviation Authority has responded to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission's report on the authority's provision of navigation and air traffic control to civil aircraft published in July; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Rifkind
  The Civil Aviation Authority publishes its initial response today. I have arranged for copies to be placed in the Library.

  The Commission was particularly asked to comment on whether and to what extent the authority had implemented the recommendations of their 1983 report; the appropriateness of the authority's investment management arrangements; the adequacy of the authority's mechanisms for improving the efficiency of services. The services provided to military aircraft and the authority's regulatory activities were excluded from the inquiry.

  The Commission found that significant progress had been made in reforming working practices, improving corporate planning, setting clear corporate and individual objectives, introducing performance-related pay, managing the investment programme, and making the organisation more accountable to users. The Commission praised the CAA's safety record against the background of a marked growth in air traffic, and its contribution, through Eurocontrol, towards the harmonisation of air traffic services in Europe. The Commission concluded that the CAA was not pursuing a course of conduct against the public interest. There remained scope for improvement in some areas, in particular manpower planning had not yet attained a standard satisfactory to the Commission or thed CAA's management.

  The authority in its response says that it has accepted all but one of the MMC's 40 recommendations, and that work endorse already begun on implementing many of them.

  I endorse the Commission's recognition of the very great progress made by the CAA under its present Chairman; of the CAA's safety record; and of its valuable work in Europe. The Authority's response clearly demonstrates their determination to achieve further improvements in their management practices, and I am pleased to see that many of the Commission's recommendations are already being implemented.

  The MMC recommended that I should review in 1996 whether the CAA and national air traffic services (NATS) should be separated. I agree that there should be no change at present, but that it will be appropriate to reconsider the issue later in the current investment cycle.
  292
  I am asking the chairman of the authority to keep me informed of his progress in implementing the MMC's detailed recommendations.

  Tachographs
  Mr. Patrick Thompson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what decisions he has reached on the serialisation of tachograph charts.

  Mr. Chope
  I have concluded that despite the superficial attractions of serialisation, it would not, on balance, be worthwhile. The offences which it was suggested serialisation might help detect are already detected by other means. Serialisation would add unnecessarily to the costs both of industry and the Department's enforcement staff.

  Speed Limits
  Mr. Patrick Thompson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he will issue advice on lower speed limits in residential areas.

  Mr. Chope
  Guidance to local authorities on circumstances where 20 mph speed limits might be suitable has been issued.

  I have placed copies in the Library.

  Rail Electrification
  Mr. Peter Morrison
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will provide credit approval to enable the electrification of the railway lines between Chester, Ellesmere Port and Hooton.

  Mr. Freeman
  My right hon. Friend is happy to announce that, subject to agreement with the parties on an appropriate expenditure profile, he can make credit approvals available to enable this project to begin in 1991–92.

  Channel Tunnel Rail Freight
  Mr. Amos
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about investment in channel tunnel rail freight services.

  Mr. Freeman
  BR is taking forward its plans and has announced that the first of its key channel tunnel regional freight terminals, which will be built with private sector partners, is to be at Wakefield to serve Yorkshire and Humberside. I have today approved British Rail's proposal to invest over £20 million in a further ten class 92 dual-voltage electric locomotives for channel tunnel freight, in addition to the 20 locomotives that we approved last May.

CIVIL SERVICE

  EC Nationals
  Mr. Dunn
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he plans to make changes to the legislation which governs the employment in the civil service of nationals of other member states of the European Community.

  Mr. Renton
  The Government are considering the implications of article 48 of the treaty of Rome for
  293
  employment in the civil service of nationals of other member states and for our domestic legislation. An announcement will be made as soon as the Government have reached a conclusion on this matter.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will list any opinion surveys conducted by, for or on behalf of his office over the most recent convenient period.

  Mr. Renton
  The Office of the Minister for the Civil Service, which forms a part of the Cabinet Office, regularly seeks customers' views of the effectiveness of services provided. In addition the following opinion surveys have been conducted since 1 April 1990:

  Evaluation of the Senior Management Development Programme

  Consultants: Peat, Marwick, McLintock

  Due to report: January 1991.

  Pilot Study on Undergraduate Attitudes to Civil Service Careers

  Consultants: Cragg, Ross and Dawson Ltd.

  Conducted: Summer 1990.

  Study of Serving Staff's Attitudes to Civil Service Careers

  Surveyors: Institute of Manpower Studies

  Conducted: Summer 1990.

  The remainder of the Cabinet Office has not conducted or commissioned any opinion surveys during that time.

THE ARTS

  Quaker Tapestry
  Sir Richard Body
  To ask the Minister for the Arts if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to the Quaker tapestry to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mr. Renton
  I considered an application for this exhibition to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall and gave my permission on 30 November 1990.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Common Agricultural Policy
  Mr. Ralph Howell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his latest estimate of the cost to the Exchequer of the common agricultural policy; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  Government expenditure in the United Kingdom under the common agricultural policy for 1990–91 is estimated at about £1,900 million. This covers market support and structural aid schemes. In addition, the United Kingdom Exchequer supports CAP spending elsewhere in the Community through our net contribution to the EC budget, which in 1990–91 is estimated at about £2,100 million. However, this sum is not allocated to particular elements of the budget, such as agriculture.

  Agricultural Chemicals
  Mr. Colin Shepherd
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to accelerate the rate of processing applications for the registration of agricultural chemicals.

  Mr. Maclean
  The most important step is to increase the number of scientific staff in MAFF regulating pesticides by 60 per cent. in 1990–91.

  Christmas Trees (Acid Rain)
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if his Department has made any recent study of the effects of acid rain on the stock of Christmas trees grown for use in the current year.

  Mr. Maclean
  The Forestry Commission's research into the effects of air pollution includes experimental work on the species which are most commonly used as Christmas trees. There is no evidence that acid rain has had any significant effect on Christmas trees.

  Farm Reservoirs
  Mr. Onslow
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what grants are available to farmers for the construction of farm reservoirs.

  Mr. Curry
  In line with the Government's policy of concentrating its aid on environmental investments rather than on those intended to increase production, grants for the construction of reservoirs are no longer available.

  Scrapie
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) further to the letter in the Veterinary Record of 15 December from the head of his veterinary investigation section, how many scrapieaffected (a) sheep and (b) goats he expects to receive for his research purposes;

  (2) how many sheep carcases he has received between 17 November and 15 December; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) whether he intends to extend his study into the time-temperature combinations required to incubate the scrapie agent; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  We are seeking 4,000 brains of scrapie affected sheep and goats as part of a research study to determine time-temperature combinations required to inactivate the scrapie agent. Between 17 November and 15 December 55 sheep carcases were submitted to veterinary investigation centres in England and Wales for scrapie diagnosis.

  Irradiated Food
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the irradiation plants in EC countries which have received official authorisation to import irradiated food in the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  No such authorisation have been granted.

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the irradiation plants in the non-EC countries for which he has given approval for the import of irradiated food into the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  No such plants have received approval.

  Fishery Protection
  Mr. Sayeed
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the final period of his charter of MV Southella for fishery protection duties; what was the cost of the charter; and if he proposes to undertake a similar charter in 1991–92.

  Mr. Maclean
  The MV Southella charter to carry out fishery protection duties commenced on 18 July 1990, and was concluded on 23 October 1990. The cost of the charter, including additional inspectorate costs for staff carried on board, totalled £327,452. A decision on whether to charter a vessel next year will depend on the availability of Royal Navy ships, the fisheries protection task to be carried out and the availability of resources.

  Bovine Offall
  Dr. David Oark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) whether he has any information about the export of animal protein derived from bovine offal from the United Kingdom to non-EC countries; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) whether he is monitoring the trade to non-EC countries of animal protein derived from bovine offal; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) whether he intends to introduce legislation to prevent the export of animal protein derived from bovine offal to non-EC countries; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  I understand that no exports of animal protein material derived from specified bovine offal are taking place. Nevertheless, I am pursuing the possibility of introducing legislation to prohibit the export of such material to non-EC countries for use in animal feed.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the research establishments and projects respectively which have been granted moneys from his Department for research into BSE; and if he will list the amounts involved.

  Mr. Maclean
  The following BSE research projects are being funded by my Department in 1990–91.

  BSE projects being funded by MAFF in 1990–91

  Estimated costs (£ million)

  MAFF: Central Veterinary Laboratory

  1. Epidemiology of BSE

  0·5

  2. Clinicopathology of BSE

  0·4

  3. Transmissibility studies

  0·1

  4. Molecular biology

  0·2

  5. Molecular genetic studies

  0·2

  6. Dam/offspring studies

  0·6

  7. Embryo transfer studies

  Sub-total

  2·0

  ADAS (RDS)

  8. Dam/offspring studies

  0·4

  9. Embryo transfer studies

  0·1

  Sub-total

  0·5

  AFRC Institute of Animal Health (Compton and Neuropathogensis Unit)

  10. Identification of BSE infection in cattle tissue

  0·04

  296

  Estimated costs (£ million)

  11. Transmission of BSE and scrapie into sheep and goats

  0·02

  12. Strain typing of BSE in mice

  0·09

  13. Susceptibility of BSE and scrapie isolates to lab. facsimiles of rendering practices

  0·01

  14. Susceptibility of the BSE agent to chemical and physical inactivation procedures

  0·04

  15. Cloning and characterisation of the bovine Prp gene

  0·10

  16. Analysis of BSE associated fibril

  0·10

  17. Diagnosis of BSE by detection of abnormal deposits of Prp (prion protein)

  0·10

  Sub-total

  0·5

  Royal Veterinary College

  18. Infectivity of various tissues from animals with BSE

  0·03

  University of Reading

  19. Evidence for the inheritance of susceptibility to BSE

  0·02

  University of Bristol

  20. Experimental transmission of feline spongiform encephalopathy to mice

  0·03

  Sub-total

  0·08

  Grand Total

  3·08

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how much money has been allocated to BSE research in each financial year.

  Mr. Maclean
  My Department has allocated the following funds for BSE research:

  £ million

  Outturn expenditure:

  1987–88

  0·2

  1988–89

  0·3

  1989–90

  1·0

  Forecast expenditure:

  1990–91

  3·1

  1991–92

  4·9

  1992–93

  4·3

  This is in addition to the substantial funds that have been made available by the Department of Education and Science for slow virus research and the high priority research that has been set in hand by the Department of Health.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Cambodia
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will urge the United Nations to expand and accelerate development and reconstruction aid to Cambodia; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Chalker
  A number of United Nations agencies are already providing humanitarian aid in Cambodia and Britain is supporting their work. The United Nations
  297
  development programme (UNDP) has indicated that it could begin operations in Cambodia once the Supreme National Council (SNC) has appointed its chairman and United Nations representative and is recognised by the United Nations as a Government structure. We hope that at their forthcoming meeting in Paris the SNC members will resolve their differences over the chairmanship so that the peace process can move forward.

  Global Environmental Facility
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the establishment of the global environmental facility under the collective sponsorship of the World bank and the United Nations environment programme and development programme.

  Mrs. Chalker
  I warmly welcome the establishment of the global environment facility (GEF). It is designed to help developing countries tackle global environmental problems including climate change, ozone depletion, pollution of international waters and the loss of biological diversity. Under climate change, for example, the GEF is likely to finance energy efficiency and energy conservation projects. It will provide grants for projects in developing countries which have substantial global benefits but would not be justified solely by the national benefits to the country concerned. All major donor countries and a number of developing countries are likely to contribute to the Facility. It will be managed jointly by the World bank, the United Nations environment programme and the United Nations development programme.

  Britain is one of the first and leading contributors to the GEF. We will be contributing £40·3 million to the core facility of the GEF. We are contributing a further $15 million (approximately £7·8 million) to the funding mechanism established in June under the Montreal protocol to help developing countries phase out ozone depletion substances, which we hope to see managed as part of the GEF.

  Our contribution will be managed by the Overseas Development Administration, but is separate from our aid budget for developing countries. ODA officials will attend the semi annual meeting of participants of the GEF which will agree its work programme. The first investments are likely to be approved from next June.

PRIME MINISTER

  Minister for Industry
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will dismiss the Minister for Industry, and appoint a Minister designated with the specific task of recovering the disappearing presence of home industry on the world stage.

  The Prime Minister
  No. The Government are pursuing policies to promote an environment in which business can flourish. The United Kingdom's share of world trade in manufactures has stabilised after decades of decline, and is set to rise in 1990 for the second year running.

  Nuclear Weapons Treaties
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the policies to be advanced by the United Kingdom delegation to the non-proliferation and nuclear test ban negotiations starting on 7 January.

  The Prime Minister
  The United Kingdom delegation to the partial test ban treaty amendment conference will make clear our view that war is best prevented by keeping a sensible mix of conventional and nuclear weapons which would present any possible aggressor with risks out of proportion to any possible gain. If United Kingdom nuclear forces are to be a sure deterrent they must be kept effective and up to date: that requires nuclear testing.

  D Notices
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Prime Minister how many D notices have been issued since August and how many involved(a) terrorism and (b) the Gulf.

  The Prime Minister
  None.

  Health Service Pay Report
  Mr. Hayes
  To ask the Prime Minister when the second supplement to the seventh report of the review body for nursing staff, midwives, health visitors and the professions applied to medicine will be published.

  The Prime Minister
  The review body's second supplement, which deals with the pay of senior nurses and midwives after the introduction of a new pay structure on 1 January 1991, is being published today. The Government are most grateful to the review body for the additional work they have undertaken to prepare this report.

  The report recommends that the pay spine and pay ranges under the new structure should be as proposed in joint evidence by the staff and management sides of the nursing and midwifery staffs negotiating council, and that the rates of London weighting payable should be the same as those which senior managers currently receive. The Government have decided to accept the review body's recommendations.

  Government Functions
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Prime Minister, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen),Official Report, 30 November, column 504, if he will now answer questions concerning (a) the membership of Cabinet sub-committees, (b) the internal workings of Government and (c) advice given to Ministers.

  The Prime Minister
  I have nothing further to add to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) on 30 November at column 504.

  Press Briefings
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Prime Minister, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen),Official Report, 3 December, column 44, whether he will set out the reasons for continuing the confidential daily briefings for journalists by his press secretary.

  The Prime Minister
  I have nothing further to add to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) on 3 December at column 44.

  Minister for Science
  Dr. Bray
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Minister for Science, Technology and Research with responsibility for the co-ordination of government science and technology policy, the science budget, the research councils, common service research organisations including the Meteorological Office, and for the representation of Britain in European Community and other international science councils.

  The Prime Minister
  No. I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave him on 11 December at column 330.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will list any opinion surveys conducted by, for or on behalf of the Cabinet Office.

  The Prime Minister
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that he received from my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Privy Council Office, earlier today.

  The Guff
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) if he will visit Jordan to discuss ecological problems of a Gulf war;

  (2) if he will visit Iran to discuss ecological problems of a Gulf war;

  (3) if he will visit Yemen to discuss ecological problems of a Gulf war;

  (4) if he will discuss with EEC leaders the possibility of a group of Prime Ministers going to Baghdad to discuss the human and ecological effects of a Gulf war and Iraq's view of middle eastern boundaries and ethnic questions.

  The Prime Minister
  I have at present no plans to do so.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  National Debt
  Mr. French
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the current total amount outstanding on the national debt; if he will express the figure as a percentage of gross domestic product; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maples
  Net public sector debt was £150·6 billion at end March 1990. This represented 28 per cent. of gross domestic product and compares with a net public sector debt of 51 per cent. of gross domestic product at end March 1979.

  Mr. French
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the savings to the Treasury in reduced interest payments caused by the repayment of the national debt for each year since 1987.

  Mr. Maples
  I estimate that the reduction in interest payments as a result of the successive public sector debt repayments since 1987 will be approximately £3 billion every year.

  Mr. French
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer by how much the Treasury has reduced the national debt for each year since 1987.

  Mr. Maples
  The figures requested are given in the table:
  300

  Net public sector debt

  £ billion

  Percentage of GDP1

  At end March

  1987

  171·8

  43

  1988

  171·4

  38

  1989

  157·8

  32

  1990

  150·6

  28

  1 Gross domestic product adjusted for the abolition of domestic rates.

  Local Authority Borrowing
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to remove local authority borrowing from the public sector borrowing requirement.

  Mr. Mellor
  No.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is Her Majesty's Government's policy on allowing local authorities to borrow money in the open market.

  Mr. Maples
  Local authorities' powers to borrow money are set out in Part IV of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. Within those constraints, there is no limit on the proportion authorities may borrow on the market.

  Welfare and Social Security
  Mr. Ian Taylor
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to propose the introduction into United Kingdom law of article 13(g) of the sixth directive of the European Community regarding the supply of goods and services linked to welfare and social security work.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  Group 7, schedule 6 of the VAT Act 1983 reflects article 13A1(g) of the directive by allowing VAT exemption for the supply, otherwise than for profit, by a charity or public body of welfare services and of goods supplied in connection therewith.

  Economic and Monetary Union
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what definition of real convergence is used for the purpose of policy development in respect of economic and monetary union.

  Mr. Maude
  A number of factors need to be taken into account when assessing the degree of economic convergence among member states of the Community. These include inflation differentials between member states, budget balances in member states, progress towards completion of the single market, and progress towards increasing labour market flexibility in member states.

  Media Advisory Service
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the media advisory service has been made operational in connection with the Gulf crisis; if he will name the chairman of the media advisory service; and whether the Central Office of Information report entitled "A Plan for a Media Advisory Service: The No Win War" will be made available to the House.

  Mr. Maples
  There are no plans at present to activate the media advisory service in connection with the Gulf
  301
  crisis. The chairman designate of the service has not yet been announced. The Central Office of Information report entitled, "A Plan for a Media Advisory Service: The No Win War", was intended for inter-departmental discussion and restricted in its circulation.

  Retail Prices Index
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what effect the increase in duty on cigarettes in the 1990 Budget had on the retail prices index.

  Mr. Maples
  The increase in excise duties on cigarettes in the 1990 Budget added nearly 0·2 percentage points to the retail prices index, assuming that it was passed on in full by retailers.

  Economic and Finance Council
  Mr. Michael Morris
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the outcome of the latest meeting of the European Community Economic and Finance Council.

  Mr. Maude
  The ECOFIN Council met in Brussels on 17 December. The Minister of State for Corporate Affairs and I represented the United Kingdom.

  Agreement was reached on the general principles which will form the basis of the system for excise controls after 1992. The raising of travellers' allowances was also discussed and it was decided that an agreement should be reached before 31 March 1991. Meanwhile significant progress was made in discussing derogations from the present limits for Denmark and Ireland. As a result, we understand that Ireland will substantially increase her limits on private travellers' duty paid purchases from 1 January 1991. This will be of considerable benefit to traders in Northern Ireland.

  An agreement in principle to a common position on the Money Laundering Directive was also reached and, once the legal text has been satisfactorily finalised, this common position should now be formally adopted shortly. The proposed directive is due to take effect from 1 January 1993 and will assist member states in countering the laundering of profits from drug trafficking.

  Aid to the Soviet Union and eastern Europe was discussed in the light of agreements for food aid and other assistance reached at the European Council. A proposal to offer guarantees to the European Investment Bank, which would enable the bank to make loans to Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Romania, was also discussed. The Council agreed in principle to the participation of the Community in a loan to Czechoslovakia along with other members of the G24 and possibly the oil producing Arab states.

  Discussion of the Investment Services Directive and of a proposal for a reinsurance pool for export credits to eastern Europe was postponed.

  Value Added Tax
  Mr. Hood
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if there are any plans to harmonise VAT on children's clothing, food and books.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  While the European Commission has made certain VAT harmonisation proposals, the Government have consistently made it clear that it does not consider centrally determined tax 302
  approximation necessary or desirable for completion of the single market. The United Kingdom's position is ultimately safeguarded, in that changes to EC tax law require the unanimous agreement of member states.

  North Sea Oil
  Mr. David Young
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the profits likely to accrue to the oil industry in the North sea arising from the increased price of oil.

  Mr. Mellor
  [holding answer 17 December 1990]: Profits accruing to the oil industry in the North sea depend on many factors and it is not possible at this stage to assess the effect of higher oil prices with precision. However, in terms of broad magnitude the increase in net of tax profits in the second half of 1990 may be around £3/4 billion.

ENERGY

  Peat
  Mr. Aitken
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether, in the light of current concern over peat extraction, his Department will reconsider the inclusion of peat on the Department's list of renewable energy sources.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Over the past few years my Department has undertaken some limited research and development into the use of peat as an industrial fuel covering both the technical aspects and market potential of peat. Our recent studies have concluded that for industrial applications peat is not an economic proposition and the only real market for peat as a fuel is in the domestic sector (the traditional use of peat in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland). There is therefore no justification for the Department of Energy to fund further research in this sector once the results of the present studies have been published. Some of the data obtained about peat as part of our research programme should make a useful contribution to the conservation activities undertaken by organisations such as the Nature Conservancy Council and Royal Society for Nature Conservation.

  Energy Supply
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his Department's policy on promoting the use of recycled materials, renewable energies and combined heat and power schemes at(a) the energy technology support unit at Harwell and (b) other departmental establishments were relevant to his Department's activities.

  Mr. Moynihan
  The Government's policies for the use of recycled materials, renewable energies and combined heat and power are set out in the White Paper, "This Common Inheritance". My Department's policy is to stimulate the development and application of renewable sources of energy, including energy from waste, wherever they have prospects of being economically competitive and environmentally acceptable. In support of this policy my Department has a substantial, and increasing, research and development programme. My Department also actively promotes the wider use of combined heat and power wherever it is economic through our best practice programme.

  Project management and guidance on technical aspects of these programmes is provided by the energy technology

  303
  support unit at Harwell and the building research energy conservation support unit. There are no other relevant Department of Energy establishments.

  Thermonuclear Fusion Reactor
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what proposals he plans to put forward at the next European ministerial Research Council on 21 December on the international thermonuclear experimental fusion reactor project.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  There are no plans to discuss the international thermonuclear experimental reactor project at the next meeting of the European Research Council on 21 December.

  Electricity
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (1) what is the average interruption of supply in minutes in the area of East Midlands Electricity in 1990 so far;

  (2) if he will list by electricity companies all interruptions of supply involving 10,000 consumers or more occurring on or after Friday 7 December indicating the commencement and conclusions of the interruptions in each case.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The information requested covers matters which are the responsibility of the regional electricity companies.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he, his officials or advisers first became aware that Welsh Water was to buy, was buying or had bought shares in South Wales Electricity.

  Mr. Wakeham
  My officials were informed on 13 December 1990 of the purchase of a stake in South Wales Electricity plc by Welsh Water plc.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what discussions he had with the international stock exchange regarding the maximum percentage of share capital in the flotation of the regional electricity distribution companies that could be reserved for customers.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The Government's stockbroking advisers, James Capel, discussed the degree of customer preference with the interntional stock exchange before the prospectus was published.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether he has investigated the first two days' trading of shares in South Wales Electricity; and whether he will make a statement.

  Mr. Wakeham
  No.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he has any proposal to debar Kleinwort Benson from acting on behalf of companies intending to acquire post-flotation stakes in the newly privatised electricity distribution companies, while it is still acting as his adviser on privatising the electricity industry.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I am satisfied with the provisions governing conflict of interest in Kleinwort Benson Limited's contract as my adviser on electricity privatisation.
  304
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether any of the firms advising him or his Department were allowed to participate in the buying or selling of the regional electricity company shares or advise or act as brokers to any third parties who did so participate.

  Mr. Wakeham
  In so far as the relevant firms are engaged in such business their activities are governed by provisions in their contracts concerning conflict of interest.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what discussions he has had with Kleinwort Benson about potential conflict of interest in its advice to him on the privatisation of the electricity distribution companies and the advice it gave to other major investors on the acquisition of a stake in South Wales Electricity subsequent to its flotation on 11 December.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I would refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave him today in connection with Kleinwort Benson Limited's role as my adviser on electricity privatisation. I have no reason to believe that Kleinwort Benson Limited has acted otherwise than in accordance with the terms of its contract with regard to conflict of interest.

  Electricity
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what percentage of applicants using(a) customer application forms and (b) public application forms were (i) unsuccessful in applying for shares in the regional electricity companies' flotation and (ii) also had their cheques cashed.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  Approximately 3 per cent. of people applying as customers did not receive an allocation in their supplying company. Where no allocation was made, cheques were returned without being cashed where practicable. The main case where this was not practicable was where people had made separate applications for a number of different companies on one application form. As each application has to be processed separately, no information is available as to the number of such forms which were entirely unsuccessful.

  Similarly, as non-customers were able to apply for as many of the 12 regional electricity companies as they liked, no figures are available as to the number of such people who received no shares in any of the companies.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what consultations he has had with the Director General of the Office of Electricity Regulation regarding mergers and takeovers involving the 12 electricity distribution companies.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  None.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether his Department was consulted on the appointment of a firm of parliamentary consultants by the regional electricity companies.

  Mr. Wakeham
  No.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy why he has agreed to exclude the disposal of their whole retail interests by a regional electricity company from the real estate clawback arrangements covering the disposal of other property.
  305
  Mr. Wakeham
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) on 19 November at column 6.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he next expects to review the structure of the electricity distribution industry of England and Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heatheoat-Amory: I have no such plans.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he next expects to review the role of Kleinwort Benson as his advisers on the electricity supply industry.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I do not expect to review the role of Kleinwort Benson before the privatisation of the electricity supply industry in England and Wales is complete.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what representations he has received regarding the cashing of cheques accompanying unsuccessful applications for shares in the 12 electricity distribution companies.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The share information office and my Department have received a small number of representations on the presentation of cheques for unsuccessful applications. By today a substantial proportion of those applicants who have had cheques cashed should have received returned money cheques.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his policy on mergers, takeovers and stake-building regarding the 12 newly privatised electricity distribution companies.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave him on Tuesday 18 December 1990,Official Report, columns 97–98.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether any of the firms advising any of the regional electricity companies were allowed to participate in the buying or selling of regional electricity company shares or advise or act as brokers to any third parties who did so participate.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The terms under which the regional electricity companies employed advisors for the recent flotation are matters for the companies.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his most up-to-date estimate of the amounts arising from the encashment of cheques of unsuccessful or scaled-down applications for shares in the 12 electricity distribution companies.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The total value of all cheques cashed under the United Kingdom public offer was approximately £5·3 billion,. Of this approximately £4·2 billion was repaid to the public as a result of scaled-down or unsuccessful applications. The remaining £1·1 billion represents the amount paid by the public as the first instalment for the shares sold to them.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether he, his officials or advisers had discussions with any retailing interests before deciding to exclude the disposal of the whole of their retail concern by a regional 306
  electricity company from the real estate clawback arrangements; and whether there have been any such discussions since.

  Mr. Wakeham
  Neither I nor my officials have had or are aware of any such discussions.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he has any plans to make an estimate, based on previous privatisations, of the proportion of the shares in each of the regional electricity companies that will be owned by the general public 12 months after flotation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: No.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list the surveys referred to in his answer of 17 December to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The information requested is as follows:

  1985

  Cardiff Energy Action City Public Awareness Survey

  Department of Energy 'Breakfast Specials' Postal Questionnaire and Analysis

  Energy Efficiency and The Growth in the Energy Management Movement

  Industrial Energy Survey

  Energy Saver Show 1985

  'Monergy'' Campaign Evaluation—Domestic Consumers

  Energy Efficiency Year Booklet Recall Survey

  `Monergy' Campaign Evaluation—Industry & Commerce

  `Energy Matters' Pilot Evaluation

  Marketing of Waste Heat Recovery Systems

  `Monergy' TV Commercial Communication Check

  1986

  Consumer Attitudes to Heating Systems

  Energy Booklet Follow-up Survey

  Survey of Exploration and Appraisal Activity, 1986 and 1987

  Direct Mail Research Test (`Monergy' Booklet)

  Survey of the Impact of the EC Non-nuclear Energy R&D Programmes in the UK

  Energy Labelling of Houses

  Autumn Tracking (Energy Efficiency—Domestic)

  Autumn Tracking (Energy Efficiency—Industrial)

  1986 `Monergy' Campaign Development

  `Monergy' Campaign Evaluation; Domestic Sector—Stage 2

  Energy Labelling of Houses (Householders)

  Consumer Attitudes to Cavity Insulation

  1987

  Efficiency Scrutiny of Departmental Publications—Readers of "Energy Trends"

  Training for Energy Management

  Users Perception of Offshore Supplies Office

  Private Generation of Electricity (including an update on Heat and Power plants)

  `Monergy' News Research

  Performance Measurement of "FOCUS" Journal

  Energy Saving Measures in the Home

  "Offshore Research Focus"—Readership Survey

  Fenestration 2000

  The Integration of Energy Forestry into Farming

  Public Attitudes to Wind Turbines (Phase 1)

  The Severn Barrage—Consultation Exercise No. 1

  1988

  Public Attitudes to Various Single Wind Turbines

  Marketability of Solar House Design

  `Monergy News 2' Evaluation Research

  Evaluation of EC Energy Demonstration Scheme in the

  307
  UK

  An Evaluation of the Cost Effectiveness of British Coal Enterprises Ltd.

  Monitoring and Targetting in the Paper Converting Industry

  Renewable Energy in UK Publications; Readership Survey

  Building Research Establishment Conservation Support Unit: Study of the Market for Energy Efficiency Workshops in Local Authorities and Health Authorities

  Public Attitudes to Renewable Energy in the UK and Reactions to Schools' Touring Display

  Public Attitudes to a 1MW Wind Turbine at Richborough

  Electricity Privatisation—Initial Qualitative and Quantitative Research into Attitudes of the General Public

  Electricity Privatisation—Surveys to update Key Attitudes

  Electricity Privatisation—Initial Survey into Attitudes of Staff of the Regional Electricity Companies

  Electricity Privatisation—Qualitative Research into the Attitudes of Financial Advisors to the Public

  1989

  Stand Performance and Audience Profile Report

  Egyptian Oil Market—Survey for the Offshore Supplies Office

  Renewable Energy Awareness

  Domestic Energy Efficiency—Publications Check

  Education Sector Research

  Energy Efficiency Office's Best Practice Programme—Energy Consumption Guide Surveys 1989–90

  Domestic Target Market Study

  Electricity Privatisation—Survey of Opinion Leaders

  Publications on Oil and Gas—The "Brown Book" Readers' Survey

  Survey of British Coal's Notification Procedures

  Public Attitudes Towards Wind FP0

  Public Consultation to Establish Reaction to Results from the Severn Barrage project

  Electricity Privatisation—Qualitative Research into Possible Methods of Sale and Application Forms

  Electricity Privatisation—Quantitative Research into the Impact and Communication of the Regional Electricity Companies' Joint Corporate Campaign

  Electricity Privatisation—Qualitative Research into Perceptions of the Regional Electricity Companies and How They Should Be Described to the Public Electricity Privatisation—Quantitative Update of Key Investment Attitudes on a Regional Basis

  Electricity Privatisation—Qualitative Research into the Appeal of Various Incentive Options

  Electricity Privatisation—Qualitative and Quantitative Investigation of Behaviour and Attitudes at the Time of Water Privatisation and the Implications for the Regional Electricity Companies

  1990

  Electricity Privatisation—Quantitative Investigation of Possible Investment Behaviour on a Regional Basis

  Attitude Survey in the Locality of the Windfarm at Delabole, Cornwall

  Regional High Rise Case Studies (Scotland & Northern Ireland)

  Market Research into Cavity Wall Insulation in Existing Dwellings (Households)

  A Strategy for Energy Efficiency in the Retail Sector Energy Campaign Evaluation

  Domestic Publications Placement Research

  Marketability of Passive Solar Design in Non-domestic Buildings

  Electricity Generators' Research

  Atomic Energy Authority Video RA0

  Regional High Rise Case Studies (England & Wales)

  Market Research into Cavity Wall Insulation in Existing Dwellings (Local Authorities etc.)

  The Collection of Fuel Usage Data for Good Practice Studies

  The Markets for Renewable Energy

  Renewable Energy Course Module for Tertiary Education

  `Green Show' Attendance Research

  The Potential for Low-Energy Lighting in Housing

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  Lighting Survey of Households

  Survey of the Textiles & Leather Industries in the Yorkshire & Humberside Region

  Electricity Privatisation—Qualitative Research into Advertising Campaign for the Flotation

  Identification of Key Issues for Monitoring and Targetting to Smaller Estates

  Current Level of Use of Energy and Environmental Calculation Methods by Building Designers

  `Energy Efficiency in Buildings' Booklets Research

  Impact Assessment on Decision-takers of Energy Efficiency Office's Best Practice Programme on Buildings

  Impact Assessment—Mid-Career College Domestic Condensing Boiler Seminar '90

  Non-technical barriers to Small-scale Hydro Energy

  Electricity Privatisation—Quantitative Research to Monitor the Impact and Communication of the Flotation Marketing Programme, on a Regional Basis

  Electricity Privatisation—Quantitive Research to Assess the Likely Investment Behaviour of Registrants

  These surveys do not include the monthly, quarterly and annual questionnaires and surveys which form the basis for compiling the Department's energy statistics.

  Piper Alpha
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list the actions he has taken to date in response to the Cullen report into the Piper Alpha disaster.

  Mr. Wakeham
  I have secured the agreement of Cabinet colleagues with relevant responsibilities, and of the Cabinet collectively, to the acceptance of all Lord Cullen's recommendations. The detailed arrangements for the implementation of the recommendations are in hand and are being progressed as rapidly as is consistent with fully effective implementation.

  Energy Efficiency
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his policy towards the proposal for a Council decision concerning the promotion of energy efficiency in the European Community under the SAVE programme.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy attended the meeting of the Council of Energy Ministers on 29 October, at which the Commission's communication on specific actions for vigorous energy efficiency was introduced, and welcomed the initiative. The proposal for a Council decision in support of the SAVE programme represents a sensible approach to the rationalisation of the European Community's work on energy efficiency, and we are working to ensure it results in effective and properly co-ordinated measures in those areas where they are appropriate.

  Energy Conservation
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what input he expects to make from his Department into the energy conservation and greenhouse gas limitation programme of the new global environmental facility jointly established by the World bank and the United Nations environment and development programmes.

  Mrs. Chalker
  I have been asked to reply and refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave today to his question to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  General Practitioner Service
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has any plans to provide a general practitioner service for hon. Members within the Palace of Westminster during sitting hours of the House.

  Mr. MacGregor
  No. During its recent consideration of the future development of the Members' medical surveillance scheme, and of related proposals being considered by the Administration Committee for the introduction of a comprehensive occupational health service for staff of the House, the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee made a number of recommendations for enhancing the medical adviser's role and extending the cover provided by the nursing sister. Those resolutions were agreed by the Services Committee and are published in its Minutes of Proceedings of 24 July. The question of a general medical practitioner was considered during the course of the Sub-Committee's deliberations but was rejected on the grounds that such a service would run counter to current established procedures and would therefore not be in the best interests of Members or staff.

EMPLOYMENT

  Training Managing Agents
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what guidelines he is issuing to training and enterprise councils in the quality requirements expected of training managing agents in the forthcoming competitive contracts and tenders with regard to (1) the number of monitoring visits to companies expected of such managers each year, (2) the training reviews of each trainee, (3) the off-the-job training requirements, (4) the percentage of trainees expected to reach national vocational qualifications levels 2 and 3 and (5) the staff qualifications of the training managers and their own training programme.

  Mr. Jackson
  Training and enterprise councils agree with my Department a strategy for managing quality. This is an integral part of their corporate and business plans. These plans form the foundation of contractual arrangements between TECs and my Department. This quality strategy sets out the mechanisms the TEC will use to ensure improvements in value for money and relevance of their provision, and includes their arrangements to ensure the capability and efficiency of their training providers. As a minimum, TECs are required to maintain standards in line with the approved training organisation criteria or an equivalent locally agreed standard.

  Disabled People
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what information he has on legislation in other countries of the EEC and elsewhere that outlaws discrimination on the grounds of disability; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  Both France and the United States of America have recently passed laws concerned with discrimination on the grounds of disability and similar 310
  legislation already applies in Canada and parts of Australia. Some EC countries other than France have laws apparently seeking to prohibit discrimination on any grounds; others take a different approach—for example, by the use of quota systems in the area of employment.

  The question of legislation is discussed in the consultative document, "Employment and Training for People with Disabilities", issued by my Department earlier this year. The Government remain to be convinced that legislation to prohibit discrimination on the grounds of disability would be right for this country, for reasons given in the consultative document.

  Skill Centres
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many skill centres have been sold; how much revenue has been obtained by the Government; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  The sales of the training businesses at 51 of the 60 skill centres, the Skills Training Agency head office, mobile training service, sales teams and colleges were all completed by the 31 May 1990. The sales involved payments from the Government to the purchasers of some £14 million. the unsold skill centres have been closed and their equipment and the Department's residual property interests are being sold. This process has not been completed, so it is not yet possible to state the final proceeds of the sale.

  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether any proportion of the proceeds of the sale of machinery and equipment from skill centres will be remitted to the Government; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  The plant and machinery from the five regional offices and nine skill centres which have not been moved to the private sector were sold by four public auctions in June and July 1990. The sales produced a total gross realisation of some £940,000 ex-VAT with further minor sales realising some £19,000. Net income to the Government totalled some £0·86 million.

  Special Needs Trainees
  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will take action to stop training and enterprise councils requiring training managers to achieve the same level of positive outcomes for trainees who have special needs as they do for other trainees.

  Mr. Jackson
  It is for training and enterprise councils to negotiate appropriate targets for positive outcomes with their training managers.

  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many trainees with special needs were on employment training in(a) 1988–89 and (b) 1989–90; and how many he expects to be on employment training in (i) 1990–91 and (ii) 1991–92.

  Mr. Jackson
  Employment training is aimed at long term unemployed people many of whom have special training needs. Some groups are identified separately and the table gives details of these groups as a proportion of all starts in 1988–89 and in 1989–90. No forecasts are available for 1990–91 and 1991–92.
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  Employment training Special needs groups as a proportion of all starts

  11988–89 percentage

  1989–90 percentage

  English as a second language

  1

  1

  People with disabilities

  12

  11

  Literacy and numeracy training need

  18

  15

  1 September 1988 on.

  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what steps he is taking to ensure that where training and enterprise councils award contracts to training managers for employment training without making above-average allowances for trainees' special needs the future provision for such trainees will continue to be provided.

  Mr. Jackson
  Training and enterprise councils are expected to set out in their corporate and business plans how they will make provision for trainees with special needs. TECs are responsible for deciding which training managers they should contract with.

  Action for Jobs
  Mr. Terry Davis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how much of the expenditure on(a) press advertising, (b) radio advertising, (c) outdoor advertising, (d) exhibition material and (e) research for action for jobs in 1988–89 was spent through the Central Office of Information.

  Mr. Jackson
  All the expenditure on(a) press advertising, (b) radio advertising, (c) outdoor advertising and (e) research was spent through and in conjunction with the Central Office of Information for "action for jobs" in 1988–89. Expenditure for (d) exhibition material was not placed through the Central Office of Information.

  Special Needs Employees
  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what assessment he has made of the extent to which trainees on employment training with special needs require above-average funding.

  Mr. Jackson
  It is for training and enterprise councils and TEED area offices to assess appropriate funding for employment training providers, including those catering for trainees with special needs.

  Full Employment UK
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representations his Department has received from Full Employment UK; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  Full Employment UK has made a number of representations to my Department. As with all such representations, the arguments and suggestions have been noted and considered.

  Regional Policy
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representations his Department has received from the Employment Institute in respect of regional policy; and if he will make a statement.
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  Mr. Jackson
  We are aware of the recent work in this area by the Employment Institute. The arguments and suggestions in the work have been noted.

  Tobacco Industry
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the number of people employed in the tobacco industry in England and Wales(a) at the latest date and (b) five years ago.

  Mr. Jackson
  The available information is from censuses of employment The most recent figures are for September 1987. There were then 13,700 employees employed in the tobacco industry in England and Wales. This compares with a figure of 20,300 in September 1984 when the previous census of employment was taken. The figures exclude the self-employed.

  Pregnant Women (EC Directive)
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if the Royal College of Midwives and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists have been consulted about the new EC directive on the protection of pregnant women; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  My Department consulted over 200 organisations about the draft EC directive on the protection of pregnant women, including the Royal College of Midwives. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists was not consulted.

  Training Agency Accounts
  Mr. Hayward
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when the White Paper, "Accounts for the Training Agency for 1989–90 and 1990–91" will be laid before Parliament.

  Mr. Jackson
  It had been planned to lay the White Paper "Accounts for the Training Agency for 1989–90" before Parliament in December 1990, but their preparation has been delayed, and they will now be published in January 1991. The Training Agency has now ceased to exist as a separate operation entirely, and no further White Paper accounts will be prepared.

  Labour and Social Affairs Council
  Mr. Bevan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the outcome of the Labour and Social Affairs Council meeting held in Brussels on 18 December.

  Mr. Howard
  The Council had a useful meeting.

  The Council formally adopted its common position on a directive to control the use of asbestos in the workplace.

  The Council reached a common position on the directive concerned with the health and safety of temporary workers, based on article 118A of the treaty. The agreement followed a compromise proposed from the United Kingdom which enabled member states who still had difficulties with the text to lift their reserves.

  The Council agreed in principle a proposed decision to designate 1992 as European Year of Health and Safety. The forthcoming Luxembourg presidency was invited to make progress on this decision in the light of the awaited

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  Opinion of the European Parliament; and also on proposed amendments to existing regulations on social security for migrant workers and a resolution on the Commission's third action programme on equal treatment for men and women. The Council had an exchange of views on the impact of current demographic changes in the Community.

  The Italian presidency sought progress on proposals from the European Commission for directives under articles 100 and 100A of the treaty, designed to regulate the rights and benefits available to part-time and temporary workers. As at the previous Social Affairs Council on 26th November, no progress was made. Many member states continued to have serious concerns about the substance of these proposals and to hold that the Commission should have based both proposals on article 100 of the treaty (requiring unanimity in the Council) because they are concerned with the interests and rights of working people.

  The Council provided further vindication of the Government's approach to social affairs at Community level. The Government continue to play a full and active part so as to ensure that the United Kingdom's interests are fully represented. The Government support a social dimension to the Community, where this helps to create and sustain employment. Progress can be made when based on sensible, well prepared proposals, particularly in the field of health and safety at work. The Government will continue to give their support to measures of this kind.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Correspondence
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) when he intends to reply to the letters sent to him on(a) 2 August by the hon. Member for Oldham, West regarding (i) households below average incomes and (ii) invalidity benefit claims in the north-west region, (b) 13 August regarding private residential and nursing home costs and (c) 16 October asking why he has not replied to these two earlier letters; and what are the reasons for the delay in replying;

  (2) if he will now give an immediate reply to the letters of the hon. Member for Oldham, West of 2 August regarding details of the households below average incomes tables and invalidity benefit claims in the north-west region and nationally, of 13 August regarding income support levels for residential and nursing homes and 16 October asking him why he had not replied to these two earlier letters; what are the reasons for the delay in replying to these letters; and what percentage of the letters to him he does not answer within four months.

  Mr. Newton
  I wrote to the hon. Member on 7 December with the information he had requested on invalidity benefit figures, and also in response to a large number of queries concerning residential care and nursing homes, insofar as the relevant information was available. At the same time, I indicated that I would be writing to him separately about the other more complex information he had requested about changes in incomes. I expect to do so this week. I regret that it has not been possible to respond to all his requests as quickly as I would have wished.

  State Pension Scheme
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the Government's estimate of how many people would leave the state pension scheme and at what cost; and what are the latest actual figures.

  Miss Widdecombe
  In his report on the financial effects of the 1986 Social Security Bill on the national insurance fund, the Government actuary said that there was no basis for making a firm estimate of the likely increase in those contracting out of the state earnings-related pension scheme (SERPS) as the result of the provisions contained in the Bill.

  The latest actual figures show that the total amount of revenue foregone in 1989–90 was £7·7 billion in respect of some 9·5 million members of contracted out occupational pension schemes in that year and some 3 million people who had taken out personal pensions in 1988–89.

  Probation Service
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he received the report commissioned by the Association of Chief Officers of Probation entitled "Surviving Poverty: Probation work and benefits policy"; what response he intends to make; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  The report was received in November 1989 and, in response, the Department attended a follow up conference called by the Association of Chief Officers of Probation in May. In addition, DSS matters were further reviewed when a delegation of Probation Service representatives, with the hon. Member for Macclesfield, attended a meeting chaired by the former Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mrs. Shephard).

  Following on from these meetings, the Department has undertaken to consider the implications for discharged prisoners over a wide range of benefit issues. There is also liaison at a local level; for example, the Leeds West office already have regular meetings with local social services and other welfare groups, including prison officers from Armley.

  Heating Allowances
  Mr. Bernie Grant
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list those parts of the United Kingdom where the temperature fell below the Department of Social Security threshold for the payment of additional allowances for heating for pensioners and others over the weekend 8 to 10 December; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Scott
  Cold weather payments are available when the average daily temperature is 0 deg. C or below for a period of seven consecutive days. This has not yet happened this winter.

  Light Bulbs
  Mr. Cartwright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what steps he is taking to encourage the use of low-energy light bulbs in his Department's offices and other buildings.

  Mr. Jack
  A programme to replace tungsten lighting with compact fluorescent, low-energy lighting was
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  initiated in 1989. Over 98 per cent. of the lighting used in the Department's buildings is of the fluorescent luminaire type. The Department is also committed to an intra-Government initiative seeking to reduce energy consumption on the civil estate by 15 per cent. over five years.

  A demonstration project using high-frequency, low energy fluorescent luminaires with ultra-sonic controls is being developed in the Leicester Yeoman St. district office. If this is successful, all new buildings and major refurbishments will normally use this type of lighting.

  Community Charge Arrears
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what outside guidance his Department has sought and obtained on the legality within the terms of the Debtors (Scotland) Act 1987 of arrestments from benefits of community charge arrears currently being undertaken in Scotland.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Departmental officials have been in touch with their colleagues in other interested Departments including the Scottish Office.

  Residential Homes
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how much his Department pays in total to the elderly residents in private residential homes for each of the last 10 years for which figures are available; and what are the comparable payments for the elderly in county council-owned homes.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information requested is not available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Social Fund
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if his Department has established a date for publication of the independent research commissioned from the social security research unit of the university of York on whether the social fund is meeting its objectives; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Scott
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply to the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) on 20 November 1990 at column 108.

  Local Offices
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list sites under consideration for the planned Glasgow, Pollok local office; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  A site search has been commissioned by Property Holdings and the findings are likely to be known early next year. For commercial reasons the location of possible sites has to be treated as confidential at this stage.

  Income Support
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security for what reasons income support claimants are still receiving transitional protection.
  316
  Miss Widdecombe
  There are three categories of claimants receiving income support transitional protection:

  (i) Some residents of hostels as a result of benefit changes in October 1989;

  (ii) Some residents of board and lodging accommodation as a result of benefit changes in April 1989;

  (iii) Some former supplementary benefit claimants are receiving transitional protection as a result of the reforms in April 1988.

  Special transitional additions for people with former high supplementary benefit additions for domestic assistance are uprated every year. Older and disabled pensioners on income support received a cash increase last October, through improvements to the pensioner premiums which did not erode transitional protection. In addition, increases in mobility allowance and attendance allowance are normally disregarded.

  Child Poverty
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if his Department will consider the implications for matters within its responsibility of research conducted by Professor Jonathan Bradshaw of York university for publication by UNICEF into child poverty in Britain; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  The report is being considered. A response will be sent to the National Children's Bureau and a copy will be sent to the hon. Member.

  Pensions
  Sir John Stanley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security whether he has completed his review of the disclosure requirements for occupational and personal pension schemes, including unit-linked personal pension plans; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The review has been completed and draft regulations will shortly be referred to the Occupational Pensions Board, in accordance with section 61 of the Social Security Pensions Act 1975.

  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will reassess the criteria used to determine the level of pensions paid to category A, ADI and BL pensioners.

  Miss Widdecombe
  We have no plans to do so.

  White Finger Disease
  Mr. George Howarth
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many people have submitted claims for industrial injuries disablement benefit arising out of white finger disease; how many of the claims have been successful; what amount of money has actually been paid out; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Scott
  This information is not available in the form requested. However, on 1 April 1989 there were some 620 assessments current for the prescribed disease vibration white finger.

  Water Charges
  Mr. Janman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if his Department has completed consultations with the water industries on deductions from benefit for payment of water charges.
  317
  Miss Widdecombe
  The Department and the water industries have now agreed a joint statement of intent, a copy of which has been placed in the Library. It confirms the existing arrangements whereby deductions from benefit may be made to meet water charges and so prevent disconnection of supply or court action, in the same way as already operates satisfactorily with fuel debts. This new administrative framework will come into operation on 1 January 1991.

SCOTLAND

  Nurses
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden of 7 December,Official Report, column 239, who will be legally responsible for students working in the wards under the direction and supervision of registered nurses.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The variety of circumstances under which Project 2000 student nurses will work is such that the question of legal responsibility for their action could only be determined by the courts in relation to individual cases.

  Homosexuals
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland in the Scottish Office figures for sexual offences covering each of the years from 1980 to 1989 inclusive, how many of the(a) convictions and (b) cautions or equivalent under the categories (i) lewd and libidinous practices and (ii) procuration are accounted for by men involved in consensual homosexual behaviour with other men over the age of 16 years, and in the cases of those convicted (1) what were the charges under which they were successfully prosecuted in each case, (2) what were the 10 highest fines imposed and (3) what were the lengths of all suspended and custodial sentences.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Full information is not available but (i) a charge of lewd and libidinous practices would not apply where there is consent and relates only to behaviour directed at children, (ii) there was no man in 1988 and one in 1989 in relation to whom the principal charge proved was procuration under section 80(9) of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980; he was fined £75.

  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland in each of the years from 1980 to 1989 inclusive, how many men between the ages of 16 and 21 years were(a) convicted and (b) cautioned or the equivalent for consensual offences of (i) sodomy, (ii) attempted sodomy, (iii) gross indecency in a private place and (iv) attempted gross indecency in a private place with another man between the ages of 16 and 21 years, contrary to section 80 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1989, and preceding or equivalent legislation; and in the cases of those convicted, how many were (1) fined and what were the 10 highest fines, (2) given suspended sentences and what was the length of each of these and (3) received custodial sentences and in each case what was the length of their sentenced terms of imprisonment or youth custody.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Full information is not available, but 318

  (i) a charge of sodomy is unlikely for consensual offences; the numbers of men aged 16 to 20 in relation to whom a charge of sodomy (probably non-consensual) was proved as a principal charge were one in 1988 and two in 1989. Other than one man who was sentenced in 1989 to three years in custody no man was fined or given a custodial sentence in 1988 or 1989;

  (ii) in relation to one man in the age group 16 to 20, a charge of attempted sodomy was proved as the principal charge in 1988; he was not fined or given a custodial sentence; there were none in 1989;

  (iii) for no men aged 16 to 20 was a charge of gross indecency proved as the principal charge in 1988 or 1989 but the numbers in relation to whom a homosexual charge was proved under section 80(7) of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980 as the principal charge were six in 1988 and three in 1989. In 1988, four men were fined £50, £75, £100 and £150; in 1989, two men were fined £50 and £175. Other than one man who was sentenced in 1988 to 30 days in custody no man received a custodial sentence in 1988 or 1989;

  (iv) in relation to no man aged 16 to 20 was a charge of attempted gross indecency proved as the principal charge in 1988 or 1989.

  Information on the numbers of persons receiving an official warning, or on the ages of "other" men and whether they were consenting is not available. Information for the years prior to 1988 is not readily available. The figures for 1989 are provisional.

  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland in each of the years from 1980 to 1989 inclusive, how many men over the age of 21 years were(a) convicted and (b) cautioned or the equivalent for consensual offences of (i) sodomy, (ii) attempted sodomy, (iii) gross indecency in a private place and (iv) attempted gross indecency in a private place with another man between the ages of 16 and 21 years contrary to section 80 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980, and preceding or equivalent legislation; and in the cases of those convicted, how many were (1) fined and what were the 10 highest fines, (2) given suspended sentences and what were the lengths of these suspended sentences in each case and (3) received custodial sentences and in each of these cases what were the lengths of the terms of imprisonment.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Full information is not available, but

  (i) a charge of sodomy is unlikely for consensual offences; the numbers of men aged 21 and over in relation to whom a charge of sodomy (probably non-consensual) was proved as the principal charge were six in 1988 and 11 in 1989. Custodial sentences were imposed on five men in 1988 and eight men in 1989. The durations were of 18 months, 18 months, two years, five years and seven years in 1988 and of three months, three years, three years, four years, four years, five years, five years and there was one where there is no separate duration recorded in the statistics in 1989. No men were fined in either year.

  (ii) in relation to no man aged 21 or over was a charge of attempted sodomy proved as the principal charge in 1988 or 1989;

  (iii) in relation to no man aged 21 or over was a charge of gross indecency proved as the principal charge in 1988 or 1989, but the numbers in relation to whom a homosexual charge was proved under section 80(7) of the Criminal Justice Act (Scotland) Act 1980 as the principal charge were 43 in 1988 and 38 in 1989. In 1988 38 men were fined, the 10 highest fines being £2,000, £300, £300, £250, £250, £250, £200, £200, £200 and £200; in 1989 31 men were fined, the 10 highest fines being £290, £250, £200, £200, £190, £150, £150, £130, £125 and £175. In 1988

  319
  three men received custodial sentences of 30 days, 30 days and four years and in 1989 one man received a custodial sentence of 60 days.

  (iv) in relation to no man aged 21 or over was a charge of attempted gross indecency proved as the principal charge in 1988 or 1989.

  Information on the numbers of other persons receiving an official warning, or on the ages of the "other" men and whether they were consenting, is not available. Information for the years prior to 1988 is not readily available. The figures for 1989 are provisional.

  Salmon and Sea Trout
  Mr. Onslow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what information he has, from his monitoring of purse seine net fishing vessels, regarding catches of salmon and sea trout by such methods.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Fishing for salmon and sea trout by purse seine net is prohibited. No information on accidental captures is available.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will place in the Library a list of all the surveys referred to in his answer of 17 December to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras.

  Mr. Lang
  I shall place a list of surveys in the Library as soon as possible.

  Schools
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to issue his national guidelines for staff development and appraisal in schools.

  Mr. Lang
  I will issue early in the new year to local authorities national guidelines for staff development and appraisal in schools for implementation over the five year period from school session 1991–92. Similar guidelines for the further education sector will follow shortly.

  The guidelines have been prepared following an extensive period of consultation which demonstrated much support for the changes they will bring to Scottish education. They provide a national framework within which education authorities and schools can plan and operate systematic arrangements for the management of staff development and appraisal. They are intended to ensure an appropriate degree of consistency across the country but at the same time allow scope for variation in application to meet local circumstances.

  Authorities will be invited to prepare and send to me local schemes which provide for teachers to be appraised at least once every two years so that by the end of June 1996 all teachers should have fully completed the appraisal process at least once. Authorities will be free to determine their own pace of implementation. I expect however that by the beginning of session 1994–95 at least half of the teachers within each authority should be within the appraisal process.

  I have powers in the Self-Governing Schools Etc. (Scotland) Act 1989 to introduce appraisal on a statutory basis. I have concluded however as a result of views expressed during the consultation period that implementation of my policy on staff development and appraisal should be on the basis of national guidelines rather than by
  320
  regulations. I will be monitoring progress on implementation and if our policy objectives are not being attained I will consider the use of regulations.

  Some but not all aspects of the guidelines will bring resource implications for authorities. I have already provided cover for additional costs of £2 million in determining next year's grant settlement for authorities. Costs of £4 million will be recognised in the 1992–93 settlement. For the following years I will take into account the further costs involved depending on the progress achieved by authorities. I am also providing specific grant support for in-service training of teachers from 1991–92 to support the requirement in the guidelines for teachers to be trained before they fulfil their roles in the appraisal process. My Department is currently preparing training materials on appraisal which will become available from school session 1991–92.

  Higher and Further Education
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes to take on student union issues and on safeguards for freedom of speech in higher and further education institutions in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I am inviting Scottish universities and colleges of higher and further education to take part in discussions of possible action on membership and financing of local student unions and the NUS; the proper use of public funds by unions and the NUS; and also on measures to secure freedom of speech.

  Following my recent consultations on the need for measures to secure free speech in Scottish institutions, I have concluded that, in view of their serious obligation to ensure free speech, universities and colleges in Scotland should be asked to introduce on a voluntary basis codes of practice to secure freedom of speech in their institutions. We shall continue to keep under review the arrangements which institutions have for securing free speech and whether any further action should be required.

  Scottish Agencies
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what steps he is taking to ensure proper representation of women on the new bodies which are to replace the Highlands and Islands Development Board and the Scottish Development Agency;

  (2) how many women have ever served on the boards of

  (a) the Highlands and Islands Development Board and

  (b) the Scottish Development Agency.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  [holding answer 17 December 1990]: My right hon. Friend appointed three women to the Scottish Enterprise Board and two women to the Highlands and Islands Enterprise Board. Members were appointed for their potential personal contribution and not as representatives of any organisation or group.

  One woman has served on the Scottish Development Agency Board but none on the Highlands and Islands Development Board.

  Housing Payments
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what the cost of rent rebate expenditure was in Scotland in 1979–80; and what that cost was in 1989–90;
  321
  (2) what the cost of providing rent allowances to tenants in Scotland was in 1979–80; and what that cost was in 1989–90;

  (3) how many public sector tenants in Scotland were in receipt of (a) standard housing benefit and (b) certificated housing benefit in 1989–90;

  (4) how many private sector tenants in Scotland were in receipt of (a) standard housing benefit and (b) certificated housing benefit in 1989–90.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I have been asked to reply.

  The information requested is as follows:

  Number of housing benefit claimants (thousands)

  Receiving income support

  Not receiving income support

  Expenditure £ million

  1989–90

  Private tenants (rent allowances)

  45

  35

  110

  Local authority tenants (rent rebates)

  270

  210

  360

  Sources:

  (a) Housing benefit management system quarterly count of claims.

  (b) 1989–90 local authority subsidy claims and mid-year estimates.

  The information requested for 1979–80 is not available.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Television Licence
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to reply to the letter of 27 November from the hon. Member for Nottingham, North regarding the television licence contract.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Soon.

  Electoral Rolls
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list in tabular form from highest to lowest the percentage of the population registered to vote in each constituency.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Estimates of the resident population by parliamentary constituency, and hence the percentage of registered electors, are not generally available.

  Mill Hill Medical Research Institute
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his Department will list visits made by the animals (scientific procedures) inspectorate to the National Institute for Medical Research at Mill Hill since the enactment of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, with details of all identified breaches of the controls of the Act and the terms and conditions of licences issued thereunder; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  In common with all other establishments, the National Institute for Medical Research is visited regularly by inspectors and most of these visits are unannounced. Since the 1986 Act came into force, visits have been made to the institute on 49 days, an average of about once a month.
  322
  All infringements are reported to the animal procedures committee, but it is not our practice to make public any details about them. It is also not our practice to give details of the terms and conditions of licences.

  Prison Boards of Visitors
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the maximum period of time a chairman of a board of visitors of a prison can hold that position; and if there are any specific guidelines.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Rule 92(2) of the prison rules and rule 73(2) of the young offender institution rules provide that when a board of visitors is first constituted the Secretary of State shall appoint one of its members to be the chairman for a period not exceeding twelve months. The model constitution which the Department recommends to boards of visitors provides that a chairman should not hold office more than three consecutive years.

  Pornography
  Mr. Dunnachie
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what proposals his Department has to review and strengthen the law as it relates to the publication and circulation of pornography, with particular reference to the easing of border controls within the European Community in 1992; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what representations have been made to other member states of the European Community to seek harmonisation of legislation against the publication and circulation of pornography prior to the easing of border controls in 1992; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  Criminal law about pornography is a matter for each member state of the Community. The easing of frontier controls in 1992 will not require relaxation of our strict controls against obscene material. We make our views on this subject clear to other member states, with particular stress on pornography involving children. A harmonising exercise would, however, raise questions of Community competence and would not necessarily result in a common standards matching ours.

  Radar Detectors
  Mr. Day
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the advertising of radar detectors for use by motorists and the use of those devices by motorists.

  Mr. John Patten
  The use of such equipment without a licence granted by the Secretary of State constitutes an offence under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949. It is also an offence at common law to incite another to commit a crime, whether or not the incitement is successful in persuading the person to commit the offence. The courts have held that a company which advertised a device which could detect police radar traps was properly convicted of inciting people who read the advertisement to commit an offence.

  Pentobarbitone
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, pursuant to his answer of 13 December,Official Report, column 475, what guidelines he

  323
  issues to practitioners concerning prescription of Pentobarbitone for use by non-practitioners; and what information he collates concerning the numbers of such prescriptions.

  Mr. John Patten
  The use of the drug by non-practitioners is lawful only when prescribed by and used in accordance with the directions of a medical, dental or veterinary practitioner. It has not been found necessary to issue guidance additional to that contained in the product data sheets and in any literature supplied with the drug or to require central statistical returns.

  Infant Life Preservation Act 1929
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to reduce the gestational age where an unborn baby is regarded as being capable of being born alive in the Infant Life Preservation Act 1929.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The matter is being given careful consideration.

  Table A

  Number of offences and offenders for sexual offences 1985 to 1989—England and Wales

  Offence

  Recorded offences

  Clear-up rate (per cent.)

  Cautions

  Prosecutions

  Convictions

  1985

  Sexual offences

  21,456

  72

  2,891

  7,257

  6,010

  Consensual homosexual offences (aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  7

  23

  30

  1986

  Sexual offences

  22,684

  71

  2,872

  7,068

  5,495

  Consensual homosexual offences(aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  3

  24

  21

  1987

  Sexual offences

  25,154

  75

  3,208

  8,298

  6,231

  Consensual homosexual offences(aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  1—

  21

  13

  1988

  Sexual offences

  26,529

  75

  3,577

  9,547

  7,154

  Consensual homosexual offences(aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  1—

  17

  23

  1989

  Sexual offences

  29,733

  75

  3,475

  9,967

  7,254

  Consensual homosexual offences(aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  8

  8

  17

  1 Unavailable.

  Table B

  Percentage change in numbers of offences and offenders for sexual offences 1985 to 1989—England and Wales

  Offence

  Recorded offences

  Clear-up rate2

  Cautions

  Prosecutions

  Convictions

  1985–86

  Sexual offences

  +6

  -1

  -1

  -3

  -9

  Consensual homosexual offences(aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  3-57

  3+4

  3-30

  1986–87

  Sexual offences

  +11

  +4

  +12

  +17

  +13

  Consensual homosexual offences(aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  1—

  3-13

  3-38

  1987–88

  Sexual offences

  +5

  0

  +12

  +15

  +15

  Consensual homosexual offences(aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  1—

  3-19

  3+77

  Sexual Offences
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in each of the years since 1985, in England and Wales, what has been the annual rate of increase or decrease in(a) recorded sex offences, (b) the clear up rate for sex offences, (c) prosecutions for sex offences, (d) convictions for sex offences and (e) cautions for sex offences, in both (i) numerical and (ii) percentage terms; and what percentage of these increases or decreases in each of the categories (a) to (e) have involved consensual offences between men over the age of 16 years where both parties have freely participated in the acts concerned; and what categories of sex offences between men are included within these statistics.

  Mr. John Patten
  A homosexual act in private is not an offence where the parties consent and have attained the age of 21 years. The tables below give information on consensual acts of buggery and attempted buggery of a male of, or over, 21 with another male under the age of 21 with consent (Sexual Offences Act 1956, section 12 as amended by the Sexual Offences Act 1967, section 3(1)).
  325

  Offence

  Recorded offences

  Clear-up rate2

  Cautions

  Prosecutions

  Convictions

  1988–89

  Sexual offences

  +12

  0

  -3

  +4

  +1

  Consensual homosexual offences (aged 16+)

  1—

  1—

  1—

  3-53

  3-26

  1 Unavailable.

  2 Percentage point change.

  3 Percentages based upon less than 50 cases.

  West Yorkshire Fire Service
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will publish the report into West Yorkshire fire service; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John Patten
  It is not the current practice to publish reports of inspections of fire brigades undertaken by Her Majesty's inspectorate of fire services. A letter summarising the conclusions reached following the inspection of the West Yorkshire fire service which was conducted in June 1990 was sent to the chairman of the West Yorkshire fire and civil defence authority on 20 July 1990.

  Asylum
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) for each quarter since 1 January 1989, how many asylum applications were made by nationals of Somalia (i) at British posts overseas, (ii) on entry to the United Kingdom and (iii) after entry to the United Kingdom; in each of the above categories, how many of those applications were from dependants of a principal asylum applicant or of someone granted refugee status or exceptional leave to remain in the United Kingdom;

  Passengers refused leave to enter the United Kingdom and removed: by nationality, 1989–90

  1989

  1990

  Geographical region/nationality

  Q1

  Q2

  Q3

  Q4

  Q1

  Q2

  Q3

  Western Europ (excluding EC)

  Austria

  26

  39

  32

  16

  24

  22

  20

  Cyprus

  61

  37

  57

  58

  40

  27

  44

  Finland

  33

  13

  18

  10

  8

  15

  10

  Malta

  7

  5

  9

  7

  8

  3

  7

  Norway

  19

  27

  26

  7

  23

  27

  26

  Sweden

  42

  49

  49

  34

  47

  41

  39

  Switzerland

  22

  18

  30

  22

  27

  14

  21

  Turkey

  618

  1,082

  286

  122

  82

  71

  120

  Yugoslavia

  166

  295

  322

  281

  216

  230

  240

  Eastern Europe

  Bulgaria

  2

  5

  6

  7

  15

  9

  11

  Czechoslovakia

  4

  2

  10

  2

  1

  8

  24

  GDR

  2

  —

  2

  7

  7

  45

  2

  Hungary

  5

  8

  7

  4

  4

  13

  12

  Poland

  23

  43

  41

  31

  25

  22

  27

  Romania

  2

  8

  3

  —

  3

  5

  5

  USSR

  15

  13

  13

  68

  10

  29

  48

  Americas

  Argentina

  19

  18

  22

  12

  25

  15

  16

  Barbados

  6

  7

  12

  6

  6

  10

  8

  Brazil

  110

  227

  203

  179

  217

  256

  203

  Canada

  18

  27

  43

  22

  21

  20

  36

  Chile

  24

  26

  22

  11

  8

  20

  19

  Colombia

  116

  196

  194

  133

  130

  265

  177

  Cuba

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  1

  5

  Guyana

  11

  9

  10

  14

  15

  11

  8

  Jamaica

  236

  195

  202

  170

  160

  140

  135

  Mexico

  33

  39

  45

  30

  29

  35

  42

  Peru

  18

  35

  31

  34

  36

  37

  33

  Trinidad and Tobago

  18

  16

  24

  18

  32

  31

  37

  326
  (2) for each quarter since 1 January 1989, how many asylum applications were made by nationals of Sri Lanka (i) at British posts overseas, (ii) on entry to the United Kingdom and (iii) after entry to the United Kingdom; in each of the above categories, how many of those applications were from dependants of a principal asylum applicant or of someone granted refugee status or exceptional leave to remain in the United Kingdom;

  (3) for each quarter since 1 January 1989, and by country, how many asylum applications were made (i) at British posts overseas, (ii) on entry to the United Kingdom and (iii) after entry to the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Immigration
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department for each quarter since 1 January 1989, and by country, how many passengers were refused entry to the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Information by nationality is given in the following table:
  327

  1989

  1990

  Geographical region/nationality

  Q1

  Q2

  Q3

  Q4

  Q1

  Q2

  Q3

  USA

  261

  280

  337

  270

  313

  321

  345

  Uruguay

  5

  3

  4

  2

  4

  5

  4

  Venezuela

  7

  7

  11

  2

  6

  16

  9

  Africa

  Algeria

  391

  543

  1,198

  961

  748

  81

  84

  Egypt

  6

  5

  16

  6

  8

  9

  13

  Ethiopia

  3

  6

  5

  4

  8

  7

  16

  Ghana

  109

  102

  124

  124

  110

  118

  123

  Kenya

  40

  34

  48

  48

  40

  47

  58

  Libya

  3

  9

  9

  7

  8

  11

  12

  Mauritius

  41

  43

  57

  58

  57

  51

  54

  Morocco

  253

  305

  1,051

  466

  353

  102

  112

  Nigeria

  193

  203

  189

  174

  190

  172

  191

  Sierra Leone

  44

  43

  51

  97

  66

  62

  102

  Somalia

  8

  4

  6

  14

  18

  2

  16

  South Africa

  73

  118

  115

  83

  138

  126

  151

  Sudan

  10

  3

  12

  6

  5

  2

  7

  Tanzania

  21

  22

  34

  34

  28

  22

  30

  Tunisia

  50

  42

  58

  60

  81

  44

  29

  Uganda

  62

  47

  52

  46

  60

  33

  46

  Zambia

  25

  24

  29

  43

  28

  25

  21

  Zimbabwe

  36

  25

  30

  47

  29

  44

  48

  Indian sub-continent

  Bangladesh

  87

  87

  151

  103

  63

  79

  82

  India

  111

  114

  125

  115

  114

  131

  124

  Pakistan

  75

  74

  107

  101

  81

  93

  147

  Middle East

  Iran

  161

  62

  141

  124

  62

  79

  124

  Iraq

  6

  15

  15

  5

  7

  11

  27

  Israel

  53

  57

  59

  50

  53

  55

  71

  Jordan

  3

  5

  9

  7

  3

  8

  10

  Kuwait

  2

  13

  3

  —

  —

  1

  —

  Lebanon

  17

  14

  27

  25

  18

  19

  21

  Saudi Arabia

  10

  7

  25

  5

  3

  4

  4

  Syria

  9

  15

  19

  11

  18

  12

  17

  Remainder of Asia

  China

  21

  23

  25

  14

  5

  6

  27

  Indonesia

  4

  4

  5

  5

  4

  8

  1

  Japan

  65

  52

  49

  46

  60

  58

  66

  Malaysia

  93

  261

  141

  123

  107

  256

  235

  Philippines

  25

  29

  37

  20

  24

  45

  53

  Singapore

  28

  16

  15

  18

  14

  16

  18

  Sri Lanka

  28

  27

  30

  22

  23

  15

  29

  Thailand

  14

  19

  14

  5

  7

  14

  20

  BDTC Hong Kong

  33

  45

  49

  51

  40

  75

  68

  Australasia

  Australia

  35

  40

  38

  33

  45

  58

  52

  New Zealand

  31

  29

  42

  19

  29

  39

  34

  British overseas citizens

  4

  8

  16

  5

  13

  9

  12

  Other countries not elsewhere specified

  249

  285

  329

  257

  262

  344

  336

  Stateless

  175

  173

  234

  236

  246

  330

  357

  All nationalitie (excluding EC)

  4,636

  5,782

  6,860

  5,258

  4,818

  4,487

  4,782

  United States Secret Service
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any special powers of arrest have been allocated to United States secret service officers stationed in, or visiting, the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  No.

  Sunday Trading
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether he has any plans to issue revised guidance to local authorities about the prosecution of those who trade illegally on Sundays;

  (2) if he will make it his policy to write to those companies which have openly admitted that they are trading illegally on Sundays reminding them of the law on this matter;

  (3) what information he has concerning the names of those retail traders in central London which traded

  329
  illegally on Sunday 16 December; and what steps are being taken by his Department to ensure that they are prosecuted.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Responsibility for the enforcement of the provisions governing Sunday trading in the Shops Act 1950 is vested in local authorities, which are well aware of their responsibilities. The Government do not receive information directly about traders alleged to have broken the law in this respect.

  Crime
  Mr. David Young
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what was the total number of crimes in each police force area in England and Wales in each of the last three years, for which figures are available(a) violence against the person, (b) burglaries, (c) theft/handling of stolen goods, (d) forgery/fraud arid (e) criminal damages, including vandalism, indicating in each case (i) percentage increases for each year from 1978 and (ii) the clear up rate percentage change against 1978;

  (2) what was the number of attacks against the police or police stations in Bolton in each of the last three years for which figures are available;

  Applications for entry clearance to the United Kingdom

  Number of persons

  Settlement

  Temporary stay1

  Country

  Decided

  Granted2

  Refused initially

  Decided

  Granted2

  Refused initially

  Bangladesh

  1989:

  1st quarter

  1,760

  1,470

  440

  2,250

  1,800

  450

  2nd quarter

  1,690

  1,330

  470

  3,390

  2,770

  630

  3rd quarter

  1,540

  1,210

  380

  3,950

  3,260

  690

  4th quarter

  1,330

  920

  490

  2,640

  1,930

  710

  Year

  6,320

  4,930

  1,780

  12,240

  9,760

  2,480

  1990:

  1st quarter

  1,350

  980

  520

  2,410

  1,780

  630

  2nd quarter

  1,290

  1,040

  390

  3,510

  2,820

  710

  India

  1989:

  1st quarter

  1,080

  840

  270

  19,710

  18,140

  1,610

  2nd quarter

  1,050

  820

  290

  43,650

  41,130

  2,590

  3rd quarter

  1,180

  1,060

  180

  28,810

  26,450

  2,430

  4th quarter

  1,240

  1,010

  280

  16,620

  14,930

  1,730

  Year

  4,540

  3,730

  1,020

  108,780

  100,640

  8,360

  1990:

  1st quarter

  1,280

  1,060

  280

  21,840

  19,550

  2,360

  2nd quarter

  1,010

  810

  240

  46,610

  42,140

  4,540

  Pakistan

  1989:

  1st quarter

  1,950

  1,360

  710

  10,670

  8,920

  1,770

  2nd quarter

  2,220

  1,630

  680

  22,300

  19,830

  2,510

  3rd quarter

  1,760

  1,320

  510

  20,330

  17,340

  3,060

  4th quarter

  1,720

  1,130

  690

  11,790

  9,470

  2,380

  Year

  7,650

  5,430

  2,580

  65,090

  55,550

  9,730

  1990:

  1st quarter

  2,260

  1,400

  1,040

  11,500

  9,400

  2,180

  2nd quarter

  1,890

  1,370

  740

  23,880

  20,170

  3,770

  Sri Lanka

  1989:

  1st quarter

  3—

  1,100

  1,010

  110

  2nd quarter

  3—

  2,160

  2,000

  160

  3rd quarter

  3—

  2,710

  2,520

  210

  330
  (3) what was the number of attacks against police or police stations in each police authority in England and Wales in each of the last three years for which figures are available.

  Mr. John Patten
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Salman Rushdie
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has on the source of press briefings to the Sunday Express on the financial arrangements for the security of Mr. Salman Rushdie.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I have no knowledge of the source of the press speculation on this subject. The arrangements for Mr. Rushdie's protection are a matter for the police.

  Immigration
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department for each quarter since 1 January 1989, how many applicants for entry clearance for (i) settlement and (ii) temporary stay were(a) decided, (b) granted and (c) refused in each country.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Quarterly data for the Indian sub-continent and Sri Lanka are given in the table. Corresponding information for other countries is not available centrally.
  331

  Settlement

  Temporary stay1

  Country

  Decided

  Granted2

  Refused initially

  Decided

  Granted2

  Refused initially

  4th quarter

  3—

  2,030

  1,830

  230

  Year

  3—

  8,000

  7,370

  710

  1990:

  1st quarter

  310

  300

  10

  1,480

  1,260

  220

  2nd quarter

  320

  300

  20

  2,220

  2,020

  200

  1 Applications other than those for settlement.

  2 Granted initially or on appeal.

  3 Included under 'temporary stay'.

  Prisons
  Mr. Martyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of prison places will have access to night sanitation in each of the next five years.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The latest available projections for the percentages of places which will have access to night sanitation are listed below:

  Percentage

  31 March 1991

  60

  31 March 1992

  68

  31 March 1993

  76

  31 March 1994

  82

  The figures for March 1995 and beyond will depend on the resources made available in the future.

  We are considering the scope for further acceleration of the programme.

  Mr. Martyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of prison hospital officers have a recognised nursing qualification.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  On 1 December 1990, about 17 per cent. were in possession of a recognised nursing qualification.

  Mr. Martyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress is being made to improve links between the prison medical service and the national health service.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The Prime Minister's efficiency unit conducted recently a scrutiny of the prison medical service (PMS). Its report contains 83 detailed recommendations which, taken together, represent a radical agenda of proposed reform in how prison medical treatment is delivered. Central to the report is the recommendation that the PMS should cease to be a provider of medical treatment, and instead should purchase under contract from the NHS and elsewhere, to a greater extent than is presently the case, the various medical services required in prisons.

  We welcome the prospect of developing closer links with the NHS, where practicable. To this end, we and the Department of Health are considering actively the feasibility and practicability of the scrutiny recommendations. This will take a little time as we shall need also to consult leaders of the medical profession and various other bodies.

  Our immediate task is to draw up and submit to the efficiency unit by January a detailed action plan. This work is well in hand.
  332
  Mr. Martyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the current rules governing prisoners' access to in-cell television; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The prison service's current policy is not to allow prisoners to have televisions in their cells. This policy is under review.

  Agents Provocateurs
  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis on the steps taken to reflect in the Metropolitan police general orders the guidelines set out by the Minister of State on the use of agents provocateurs,Official Report, 14 May 1984, columns 85–87; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  No. Instructions contained in the current edition of the Metropolitan police force instruction manual reflect the Home Office guidance to which the then Minister of State referred during the debate on the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill on 14 May 1984. I am advised by the Metropolitan police that a senior police officer has been tasked with looking at all force instructions relating to police operations to detect possible offences of indency to assess whether clearer guidance is required.

  Firearms
  Mrs. Maureen Hicks
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he will bring into effect the provisions of section 20 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  I signed a commencement order on 19 December which will bring into force on 2 April 1991 section 20 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988, insofar as it is not already in force. Section 20 is already in force for the purpose of making an order thereunder and accordingly on 19 December I also signed a Firearms (Removal to Northern Ireland) Order to come into effect on 2 April 1991.

  Police Expenditure
  Mr. Andy Stewart
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will announce his decisions on police capital expenditure for 1991–92.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  The provision for police capital expenditure will rise from £173·7 million in the current year to £219 million in 1991–92. This is an increase of more than 25 per cent. Most of the increase will be to improve spending on vehicles and equipment.
  333
  Capital grant to meet 51 per cent. of this expenditure will be allocated to individual police authorities to meet the costs of major building schemes which are already in progress or are due to start in 1991–92. Police authorities will also receive grant on the basis of over £1,000 per head of force establishment for expenditure on minor building works, vehicles and equipment.

  The amount which police authorities may borrow to meet their 49 per cent. share of capital expenditure will also be increased from £41 million in 1990–91 to £67 million in 1991–92. This is an increase of 63 per cent. and will enable police authorities to meet more than half of their costs from loans.

  Police authorities are being informed of their allocations of grant and credit approvals for 1991–92.

  Police Establishments
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will announce his decision on increases in police establishments for 1991–92.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  I am able to approve 700 additional police posts for 1991–92 in the allocation as shown in the following table. The 100 posts for the Metropolitan police will be with effect from 31 March 1992 while the provincial force posts will be with effect from 1 October 1991. In addition I can approve up to 90 posts where I am satisfied that the full cost would be reimbursed by a third party, as in the case of some airports.

  Applications from the police authorities for increases in establishments have exceeded the number of posts available for allocation and I have therefore had to set priorities taking into account advice from Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary. My approval is always subject to confirmation from the police authorities that their share of the funding is available for the extra police posts.

  Over 80 per cent. of the posts will be deployed on operational duties identified by chief constables, mainly at constable level.

  I have also retained 36 posts for allocation to the regional crime squads. I await the advice of Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary before I decide on their specific allocation.

  In addition to police posts, provision had been made for 1,100 additional civilian staff posts which it is intended should help forces obtain police officers through civilianisation. Provincial police authorities identified scope in their applications for 1991–92 for the release of up to 630 additional police officers to operational duties by civilianisation. In addition the Metropolitan Police plans to increase operational strength by 100 through civilianisation. The full effect of the additional posts and of civilianisation could therefore be to increase operational strength by over 1,400 in 1991–92.

  Posts

  Avon and Somerset

  4

  Bedfordshire

  32

  Cambridgeshire

  16

  Cheshire

  11

  Cumbria

  8

  Derbyshire

  8

  Devon and Cornwall

  15

  Dorset

  15

  Durham

  11

  334

  Posts

  Essex

  17

  Gloucestershire

  19

  Greater Manchester

  22

  Hampshire

  27

  Hertfordshire

  11

  Humberside

  18

  Kent

  28

  Lancashire

  22

  Leicestershire

  13

  Lincolnshire

  8

  Merseyside

  5

  Norfolk

  12

  Northamptonshire

  19

  Northumbria

  26

  North Yorkshire

  6

  South Yorkshire

  18

  Staffordshire

  8

  Suffolk

  11

  Surrey

  11

  Sussex

  18

  Thames Valley

  40

  Warwickshire

  8

  West Midlands

  48

  West Yorkshire

  14

  Wiltshire

  15

  Total: (England and Wales

  564

  Metropolitan police

  100

  Regional crime squad

  36

  Total

  700

  Mr. Mostafa Rahimi
  Mr. Bermingham
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will make a statement on the circumstances of refusal of entry to Mr. Mostafa Rahimi at Heathrow airport on 6 December;

  (2) if he will make a statement on the circumstances surrounding the detention of Mr. Mostafa Rahimi in Singapore after 6 December and the discussions there have been with the Government of Singapore in respect of this case;

  (3) what agreements were reached with (a) Quantas and (b) the Australian high commission immigration office prior to the placing of Mr. Mostafa Rahimi on flight QF010 on 6 December; and if he will make a statement;

  (4) what representations he has (a) received from and (b) made to the Australian Government concerning the case of Mr. Mostafa Rahimi; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  [holding answer 19 December 1990]: Mr. Rahimi arrived on 2 December in transit from Australia whence he was being deported to Iran by the Australian authorities, and sought asylum. The case had been the subject of an approach from the Australian immigration service. We understood from them that deportation via London was the only practicable route in the circumstances. On Mr. Rahimi's arrival in London his application for asylum was not therefore considered by the asylum division since he could be returned to Australia as a safe third country in accordance with the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on 25 July 1990—a policy understood and accepted by the Australian authorities before agreement to route Mr. Rahimi through London was given. He was refused entry on 5 December under the immigration rules, and directions were give to Qantas

  335
  Airways Ltd. to return him to Melbourne. A Qantas representative gave written and oral undertakings to the immigration officer at terminal 3 that Mr. Rahimi would be removed to Australia in accordance with the directions given under the Immigration Act. An officer of the Australian High Commission in London was aware of this arrangement. When, however, the aircraft returning Mr. Rahimi to Australia arrived in Singapore I understand that he was removed from the aircraft on the direction of an official of the Australian High Commission there and subsequently removed to Iran.

  We have had no discussions with the Government of Singapore. The immigration service was informed of events in Singapore by a Qantas representative and immediately informed Mr. Rahimi's solicitors. The chief inspector of the immigration service wrote to the Australian authorities seeking urgent clarification. A reply from the Australian Government has been received which states that Mr. Rahimi was removed to Iran because his application for asylum in Australia had already been fully considered and rejected.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Burslem Post Office
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations and communications he has received from the Staffordshire Evening Sentinel between 26 November and 9 December in respect of Burslem post Office.

  Mr. Leigh
  My noble Friend the Minister for Industry has received a letter from the Editor of the Staffordshire Evening Sentinel dated 26 November setting out his objections to the proposed regrading of Burslem Crown post office and has since received several editions of the Staffordshire Evening Sentinel.

  Motor Vehicle Imports
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the total percentage of import penetration in the motor vehicle industry in 1979 and at the latest available date.

  Mr. Leigh
  Import penetration in the motor vehicles industry (SIC 351) was 48 per cent. in 1979, and 51 per cent. in the 12 months to March 1989 (the latest available period).

  Motor Vehicle Production
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what proportion of all goods vehicles was produced by wholly home-owned British companies in 1979, and in the latest available year.

  Mr. Leigh
  The proportion, in terms of number of vehicles produced in 1989, was 3 per cent. Figures for 1979 are not available.

  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the total annual production of heavy and light goods vehicles in Britain in 1979 and at the latest available date.

  Mr. Leigh
  The information is contained in the table:
  336

  United Kingdom production of goods vehicles

  Light

  Heavy

  Total

  1979

  265,734

  116,795

  382,529

  1989

  279,822

  44,597

  324,419

  Notes:

  1. Light goods vehicles are those not exceeding 3·5 tons.

  2. Buses and coaches are generally excluded. However, minibuses are included in light goods vehicles in 1989.

  3. Figures are as published in aggregate form by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, from data collected by the Business Statistics Office.

  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the total production of motor cars at factories with their headquarters in the United Kingdom in 1979 and at the latest available date.

  Mr. Leigh
  A total of 509,000 cars in 1979, and 473,000 cars in 1989. The totals exclude United Kingdom production by manufacturers whose parent companies are based outside the United Kingdom.

  Hosiery and Knitwear Imports
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the total percentage of import penetration in the hosiery and knitwear industry in 1979 and at the latest available date.

  Mr. Leigh
  Import penetration for the hosiery and knitwear industry (SIC 4360) was 25 per cent. in 1979, and 43 per cent. for the 12 months ending March 1989 (the latest available period).

  Footwear Imports
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the total production of footwear in Britain in 1979 and at the latest available date; and what was the total import penetration at the same dates.

  Mr. Leigh
  Total production, in terms of gross output for the footwear industry (SIC 4510) was £916 million in 1979, and £1,354 million in 1988 (latest available period). Import penetration for the same periods was 34 per cent. in 1979, and 48 per cent. in 1988.

  Lynx Helicopters
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to Lynx to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mr. Leigh
  The Department received such an application earlier this year, and I am pleased to say that approval was subsequently given.

  Airbus
  Mr. Henderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how much the Government have provided in launch aid to British Aerospace to enable it to participate in the Airbus projects.

  Mr. Leigh
  The sum of £50 million was made available to British Aerospace on the occasion of its entry into Airbus Industrie as a full partner in Airbus programmes in 1979. Launch aid of £249·3 million was paid in connection with the design and development of the Airbus A320.
  337
  Launch aid of up to £450 million is being paid in connection with the design and development of the Airbus A330 and A340.

  Machine Tools Technology Association (Meeting)
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will list by rank and department all officials present at the meeting between the then Trade and Industry Minister, now Minister of Defence Procurement, and the Machine Tools Technology Association in early 1988.

  Privatisations and sales of major subsidiaries since 1979

  (£ million)

  Company

  Date of Sale

  Per cent.

  Net Proceeds to Government

  Per cent.

  Current Capitalisation1

  Per cent.

  British Aerospace

  1981

  52

  43

  52

  —

  —

  (Secondary sale by HM Treasury)

  1985

  347·2

  —

  1,427·1

  2—

  Cable and Wireless

  1981

  49

  181

  49

  —

  —

  (Secondary sales by HM Treasury)

  1983

  22·3

  263

  22·3

  —

  —

  1985

  —

  576·6

  —

  5·114·6

  —

  Jaguar

  1984

  —

  3—

  —

  4—

  —

  British Telecom

  1984

  50·2

  3,685

  50·2

  8,909·2

  50·2

  17,747·5

  Total

  Rolls-Royce

  1987

  —

  1,030·5

  —

  1,556·8

  —

  Rover Group5

  1988

  —

  150

  6—

  7—

  —

  British Steel

  1988

  —

  2,424·8

  —

  2,430·0

  —

  Girobank

  1990

  —

  8—

  —

  9—

  —

  Notes:

  1 At close on Friday 7 December 1990.

  2 Includes Royal Ordnance and most of Rover Group.

  3 Proceeds to BL plc (now Rover Group).

  4 Now a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford.

  5 Private sector company.

  6 This does not take into account exchequer payments (including cash injection of £547 million) or exchequer cost of deferring payments of consideration.

  7 Now owned by British Aerospace and Honda.

  8 Proceeds to the Post Office.

  9 Now owned by Alliance and Leicester Building Society.

  Science Parks
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how much of the available EC money for the development of science parks has been taken up by appropriate bodies in Britain.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 14 December 1990]No specific funds are available for the development of science parks under the European Community framework programme for research and development.

  For the availability of funds for science parks in eligible areas under the European Community structural funds, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answers given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science on 14 December, Official Report, column 514, by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment on 14 December, Official Report, column 535, and by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment on 17 December, Official Report, column 25.

  Manufactures
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will publish in the Official Report a table showing for each year since 1970, in index form based on
  338
  Mr. Lilley
  There were two officials with the rank of grade 7 and the Minister's assistant private secretary, all from my Department, at the meeting.

  Privatisations
  Mr. Grocott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will list the privatisations with which his Department has been involved since 1979, indicating in each case the date of the sale, the proceeds of the sale and the estimated current value of the company.

  Mr. Redwood
  [holding answer 14 December 1990]: The information requested is given in the table.

  1985, the share of world trade in manufactures from the United Kingdom, Germany, France, the United States of America and Japan.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 18 December 1990]: The information is as follows:

  Share of MMC's1 exports of manufactures' unit share indices (1985 = 100)

  Year

  United Kingdom

  France

  FRG

  USA

  Japan

  1970

  134·2

  103·5

  106·4

  111·4

  59·4

  1971

  136·7

  104·7

  107·5

  102·4

  66·0

  1972

  125·3

  109·4

  108·6

  97·0

  67·0

  1973

  115·2

  112·9

  118·2

  96·4

  64·5

  1974

  107·6

  108·2

  116·0

  102·4

  72·6

  1975

  115·2

  120·0

  108·6

  106·0

  69·0

  1976

  107·6

  115·3

  110·2

  103·6

  74·6

  1977

  113·9

  116·5

  111·2

  94·6

  78·7

  1978

  112·7

  115·3

  111·2

  91·6

  79·7

  1979

  115·2

  123·5

  111·8

  95·8

  69·5

  1980

  122·8

  117·6

  106·4

  101·8

  75·6

  1981

  107·6

  108·2

  98·4

  111·4

  90·9

  1982

  106·3

  105·9

  105·3

  105·4

  87·8

  1983

  100·0

  104·7

  101·6

  101·2

  93·9

  1984

  96·2

  100·0

  96·8

  103·0

  102·0

  1985

  100·0

  100·0

  100·0

  100·0

  100·0

  1986

  96·2

  103·5

  110·7

  83·8

  98·5

  1987

  102·5

  105·9

  114·4

  82·0

  91·9

  1988

  105·1

  107·1

  110·2

  89·2

  91·9

  1989

  103·8

  105·9

  109·1

  94·6

  89·3

  339

  Year

  United Kingdom

  France

  FRG

  USA

  Japan

  Percentage share of MMC's exports of Manufactures

  1985

  7·9

  8·5

  18·7

  16·7

  19·7

  1 Main manufacturing countries—Belgium, Luxembourg, Canada, France, FR Germany, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom and United States of America.

  2 Standard International Trade Classification, sections 5·8.

  Source: National sources.

  Levitt Group
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what action his Department is now taking in respect of the Levitt Group.

  Mr. Redwood
  [holding answer 18 December 1990]: The serious fraud office is investigating the "Levitt Group". My Department does not comment on the affairs of individual companies.

HEALTH

  Hospital Waiting Lists
  Mr. Blair
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what was the size of the hospital waiting lists in the Mid-Surrey and East Surrey area health authorities in 1980, 1985 and 1990 or latest available date.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The information requested is given in the table. While numbers on the lists have gone up since 1980, the number of patients treated has also increased. This information is also provided in the table.

  1980

  1985

  1989–90

  Mid-Surrey

  Numbers on waiting list

  1,905

  2,153

  2,031

  Numbers treated

  17,780

  17,977

  21,195

  East Surrey

  Numbers on waiting list

  1,293

  1,448

  2,688

  Numbers treated

  19,021

  22,471

  25,013

  Factor VIII
  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he will consider increasing HIV-AIDS funding to regional health authorities to cover the cost of high-purity factor VIII for haemophiliacs.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  There are no plans to increase HIV-AIDS funding to the regional health authorities to take account of the prescribing of high purity factor VIII for haemophiliacs.

  The haemophilia treatment centres are funded by the appropriate health authority for the treatment of haemophiliacs and high purity factor VIII is one type of treatment which clinicians may prescribe.

  Residential Homes
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will seek to introduce the same weekly payments to residents in county councils' residential homes as are currently paid to elderly residents' private residential homes; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  As explained in our White Paper, "Caring for People", the Government wish to 340
  ensure that local authorities consider making use of the independent sector when placing people in residential settings under their community care responsibilities from April 1993.

  We do not therefore propose to change the arrangements for paying social security benefits to people in local authority homes apart from personal allowances, which are to be awarded at the same rate to all residents supported from public funds in all homes, local authority, voluntary and private.

  World AIDS Day
  Mr. Carrington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department took to mark World AIDS Day; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  World AIDS Day, a World Health Organisation initiative, is an annual event designed to expand and strengthen the effort to prevent AIDS. The theme for this year's event was "Women and AIDS" and reflected how AIDS affects women, not only those infected with HIV, but those in society as carers, health educators and mothers.

  This Department asked Margaret Jay of the National AIDS Trust (NAT) to form a group to steer the United Kingdom response, the group had representatives from the United Kingdom statutory, voluntary and media sectors. The day was marked by many events up and down the country, organised by local statutory bodies and voluntary groups. We were encouraged by the response from private firms.

  On the eve of World AIDS Day, the Chief Medical Officer and I attended an ecumenical service of hope at Westminster Abbey; this was an impressive collaborative effort and a most moving tribute to those who have died as a result of AIDS and a sign of hope for the future.

  On World AIDS Day Saturday 1 December we were able to talk to people in the forefront of the fight against AIDS, and speak to those caring for people with HIV infection and AIDS, and patients. We visited the institute of Child Health and the Royal Free hospital, and the Chief Medical Officer went on to visit Mildmay Mission hospital and London Lighthouse.

  We were also able, through the media, to assure people of this Government's continuing commitment to do all in our power to prevent the future spread of HIV.

  Children Act
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what additional facilities will be provided for local authorities to ensure that the provisions of the Children Act and, in particular, those relating to guardians ad litem and childminder registration and inspection are implemented; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Children Act will be implemented as a whole on 14 October 1991.

  The cost of implementing the Act has been taken into account in the overall local authority settlement announced earlier this year. The personal social services standard spending figure for 1991–92 has been set at £4,502 million, an increase of 23·4 per cent. in cash terms over the equivalent figure for 1990–91, and some 10 per cent. higher than the local authority PSS budgets for 1990–91.

  The first phase of the consultation exercise on the guidance and regulations required under the Act ended

  341
  recently. The consultation papers issued as part of this exercise will form the basis of a series of booklets of guidance which will be issued free of charge to all social services departments early next year.

  A number of training projects have been commissioned by the Department; included among these is a project by the National Children's Bureau, who are producing training material for staff concerned with the registration and inspection of day care facilities. We expect to commission further projects next year, including material specifically aimed at guardians ad litem.

  Ambulance Services
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what advice he has given to health authorities in London concerning their contractual arrangements for non-emergency ambulance services after 1991; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  General advice on contracting arrangements was issued to all health authorities in March 1990 in the publication "Contracts for Health Services: Operating Contracts" a copy of which is available in the Library. Paragraphs 4·28 and 4·29 of the publications relate to ambulance services.

  Doctors
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the number of male doctors and the number of female doctors(a) in general practice, (b) who are consultants and (c) other than consultants who work in hospitals.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The information requested is given in the table.

  Number of general medical practitioners hospital consultants and other hospital doctors 30 September 1990 England

  Grade

  Male

  Female

  Unrestricted principals (GPs)

  19,778

  5,830

  Hospital consultants

  12,619

  2,261

  Staff grade

  25

  8

  Associated specialists

  475

  321

  Senior registrars

  2,373

  916

  Registrar

  4,617

  1,436

  Senior house officers

  6,802

  3,823

  House officers

  1,682

  1,262

  Other staff

  15

  5

  Hospital practitioners

  762

  69

  Clinical assistants

  5,300

  2,249

  Total other doctors

  22,051

  10,089

  Food Poisoning
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will give figures for the incidence of food poisoning in each local authority area in each of the last four years.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information available centrally by regional health authority area was placed in the Library on 26 July 1990 following an answer to the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) at column 438.

  Erythropoietin
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received about the estimated number of patients who would benefit from erythropoietin.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We have received a number of representations concerning erythropoietin.

  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether, pursuant to his reply of 26 November,Official Report, column 296, he has received or intends to acquire, information from regional health authorities on the extent to which the extra funds provided by his Department for 1991–92 will meet the needs of all patients who fulfil his Department's criteria for benefiting from erythropoietin.

  Mr. Dorrell
  No. We previously discussed with regional health authorities their plans for the funding of erythropoietin. Their strategies varied but all were aware of its benefits and the need for its progressive introduction.

  Opinion Surveys
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, further to his answer of 17 December to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, if he will place the surveys listed in the Library.

  Mr. Dorrell
  It is not normal practice to do so. I regret that the tables supplied with my earlier reply included some social security surveys not relevant to health and personal social services. The corrected tables follow.

  Department of Health

  Misuse of Drugs Campaign 1988–89 Creative Development Stage 2

  Nursing Recruitment Campaign—Telephone Response Follow-up

  Cold Weather Campaign Evaluation 1988–89

  Misuse of Drugs 1988–89: Creative Development Stage 3

  NHS Financial Management Training Scheme Research

  Nursing: Youth Concept Research

  Drugs 1988–89 Campaign Evaluation Stage 7

  Nursing Tracking 1989–90: Two Stages June and September

  Cold Weather Publicity Campaign 1989–90 Evaluation

  Nursing Tracking Study Wave III and Wave IV (1990)

  Drugs Tracking Study Stage 8

  Drugs 1990: Doublehead Research

  Organ Donation: Regional Research

  Nursing Qualitative Evaluation

  Cold Weather Postal Follow-up Research

  Drugs 1990: Qualitative Evaluation

  Nursing Follow-up of Campaign Response: Student Nurses

  Drugs Tracking Stage 9

  Department of Health and Social Security

  Nursing Recruitment Campaign Evaluation

  Image of the NHS

  Anti-Heroin Campaign Tracking

  AIDS-Drugs Advertising Development Research

  AIDS Longterm Tracking

  Organ Donor Next of Kin—Qualitative Research

  Aids Youth Campaign Tracking Research (November 1986 and February 1987)

  AIDS/Drugs Doublehead Animatics Research—Reaction to Advertising Roughs

  AIDS-Drugs Advertising: Animatic/Doublehead Communication Check

  Attitudes to Nurse Training

  Stage 6 of a Tracking Survey to Evaluate the Anti-Drugs Campaigns

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  Attitudes of West Indians and Asians to AIDS

  Nursing Recruitment—Advertising Communication Check

  1986–87 Anti-Herion Campaign Creative Development

  Anti-Heroin Campaign Evaluation Stage 4

  Qualitative Research into Attitudes to Condoms (AIDS)

  AIDS Anti-Body Test Leaflet Comm Check Research Pilot and Main Survey

  National and Regional Publicity Needs for the Blood Transfusion Service

  AIDS-Drugs Campaigns: Qualitative Evaluation Research

  Prescribing Publicity

  Organ Donor Research

  Misuse of Drugs 1988–89 Campaign: Advertising Development Research

  1988 Nursing Recruitment Campaign: Initial Evaluation Research

  Nursing Careers: 1988 Tracking Study

  Attitudes to Giving Blood

  Smoking Among Secondary Schoolchildren in 1986 (DHSS/WO/SHHD)

  Disabled People
  Mrs. Mahon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) when he last issued guidance to social service authorities under section 29 of the National Assistance Act 1948, to make arrangements to make registers of people requiring assistance on account of disability etc.;

  (2) if he will publish the present guidance to social service authorities under section 29 of the National Assistance Act 1948; and if he intends to revise this guidance.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The last guidance to local authorities on registration practice was issued in 1974 in local authority circular 17/74 a copy of which will be placed in the Library. This document has been copied to health authorities for information and wider publication is not considered necessary. We have no current plans to revise this guidance.

  Mrs. Mahon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the numbers of people registered under the provisions of the National Assistance Act 1948, for the social services authorities in(a) Calderdale, (b) Bradford, (c) Wakefield, (d) Kirklees, (e) Leeds, (f) Rochdale and (g) Oldham.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information requested is published in the following triennial publications, copies of which are held in the Library:

  Registers of physically disabled persons (General Classes) at 31 March 1987, England, (Ref. A/F 87/19)

  Registers of blind and partially sighted persons at 31 March 1988, England, (Ref. A/F 88/7)

  Registers of the deaf and hard of hearing at 31 March 1989, England, (Ref. A/F 89/20)

  Medical Negligence
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement providing the details of the changes which come into force on 1 January 1991 affecting the claims made against health authorities for medical negligence.

  Mr. Dorrell
  With effect from 1 January 1990, health authorities assumed direct responsibility, previously taken by the medical defence organisations, for claims of negligence against their medical and dental staff in the course of their national health service employment. A copy 344
  of HC(89)34, "Claims of medical negligence against NHS hospital and community doctors and dentists", has been placed in the Library. No changes come into force on 1 January 1991.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what was the total number of claims for medical negligence met by each region and district of the NHS in each of last 10 years for which figures are available;

  (2) what was the total number of claims for medical negligence lodged against each region and district of the NHS in each of the last 10 years for which figures are available;

  (3) what has been the total amount of claims for medical negligence met by each region and district of the NHS in each of the last 10 years for which figures are available.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Until 31 December 1989, the medical defence organisations paid the costs and damages arising from claims of negligence against the medical and dental staff of health authorities. Information on the number of claims and on the costs involved is not held centrally.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information he has concerning the extent to which funds are currently being diverted by health authorities from patient care towards provision for possible future claims for medical negligence.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We have no information which suggests that funds are being diverted in this way.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he will make a statement giving details of his estimates of the likely cost of settling those claims made against the NHS for medical negligence in England and Wales which are currently being dealt with;

  (2) what financial assistance he intends to give to the NHS trust hospitals to enable them to meet the potential £500 million outstanding liability for medical negligence suits.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The medical defence organisations paid out an estimated £40 million in the hospital and community health services in the United Kingdom in 1989. The costs in 1990–91 may be higher than this. National health service trusts will not be responsible for any act of medical negligence occurring before they were established.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what discussions he has had with representatives of those units within the NHS which have opted for trust status about the implications for future funding of outstanding claims for medical negligence;

  (2) if he will make a statement providing the details of the changes which may come into force on 1 April 1991 affecting the way in which claims made against health authorities for medical negligence will be dealt with in those cases where the health authority, or part of the health authority, has been awarded trust status.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Health authorities will remain responsible after 1 April 1991 for claims of medical negligence made against them before that date. National health service trusts will be responsible only where the negligence or alleged negligence took place after the trust became responsible for the service concerned. A copy of EL(90)195 "Insurance arrangements from April 1991" has been placed in the Library.
  345
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent representations he has received concerning future plans for dealing with claims for medical negligence in the NHS.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The few representations received recently included one from the National Association of Health Authorities and Trusts and one from Hastings health authority.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement giving details of his estimates of the likely cost of settling all currently outstanding claims and potential claims for medical negligence in the NHS.

  Mr. Dorrell
  No estimate has been made centrally of the likely cost of settling all currently outstanding claims: no estimate can be made of potential claims. The contingent liability is substantially larger than the amount paid out in any one year, since medical negligence cases often take several years to be settled.

  Midwives
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will reconsider the recommendations of the Social Services Committee in its fourth report, 1988–89, on midwives regrading.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Government gave very careful consideration to the recommendations of the Select Committee and its response was published last year (Cm. 721—June 1989).

  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the Institute of Manpower Studies survey entitled "Midwives Carers and Grading", printed in November.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This study was commissioned by the Royal College of Midwives, which has not sought comments from the Department.

  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that the clinical grading structure has been applied to midwifery posts in a fair and consistent manner;

  (2) what differences there are in the application of the clinical grading structure to staff midwife posts between the four Thames regions and the other regions in England; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The grading of individual posts is a matter for the employing authorities, who are expected to adhere to the agreed clinical grading definitions. These require posts to be graded in accordance with the particular duties and responsibilities they carry. Variations between authorities in the proportion of posts graded at particular levels may arise, for example, because of different approaches to service organisations.

  Guideposts Trust
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he will provide resources to the Guideposts Trust.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Department has received no application for a grant from the trust.

  Community Nursing
  Dr. Hampson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he has issued any advice to health authorities on the organisation of community nursing services.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  On 10 December I launched the report "Nursing in the Community" at a conference of senior national health service and local authority managers. This report provides practical guidance on the organisation and development of nursing services in the community. It will place nursing services in the community high on health authority management agendas, where they belong. Copies of the report have been sent to regional, district, FHSA and unit general managers, all GP practices, directors of social services, community health councils, the royal colleges and professional organisations. Copies are available in the Library.

  Food Safety
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish the names of those invited to serve on the advisory committee and the steering group on the microbiological safety of food.

  Mr. Dorrell
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and I have decided that the following should be invited to be members of the advisory committee and the steering group on the microbiological safety of food.

  Advisory committee

  Professor Heather Dick Chairman

  Professor of Medical Microbiology

  University of Dundee

  Dr. R. Gilbert

  Director of Food Hygiene Laboratory

  Public Health Laboratory Service

  Dr. T. Wilson

  Senior Consultant Bacteriologist

  Belfast City Hospital Laboratory

  Dr. N. A. Simmons

  Department of Clinical Bacteriology

  Guys Hospital

  Dr. S. Palmer

  Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre

  Welsh Unit, Cardiff Royal Infirmary

  Professor R. Feldman

  Professor of Clinical Epidemiology

  London Hospital

  Professor D. Georgala

  Director

  Institute of Food Research

  Dr. P. A. Mullen

  Veterinary Advisor to

  Union International Ltd.

  Mr. R. Southgate

  Technical Director

  Northern Foods Meat Group

  Mr. G. Amery

  Group General Manager

  Technical Group, CWS Ltd.

  Dr. G. Spriegel

  Director of Scientific Services

  Sainsburys

  Mr. R. Ackerman

  Chairman of

  Hotel and Catering Training Company

  Dr. M. Stringer

  Head of Microbiology

  Campden Food and Drink Research Association

  Mr. R. Sprenger

  Director of Environmental Health

  Doncaster

  347

  Dr. C. St. J. Buxton

  Director of Public Health

  Durham Health Authority

  Dame Rachel Waterhouse

  Consumers' Association

  Mrs. B. Saunders

  Freelance Consultant

  Steering Group

  Dr. Mary Cooke

  Deputy Director

  Public Health Laboratory Service

  Dr. C. Bartlett

  Director

  Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre

  Professor Arbuthnott

  Professor of Microbiology

  University of Nottingham

  Mr. E. Ramsden

  Chief Environmental Health Officer

  Swansea

  Professor I. M. Smith

  Professor of Microbiology

  Royal Veterinary College

  Dr. T. Roberts

  Institute of Food Research

  Dr. A. Baird-Parker

  Unilever Research

  Mr. D. Elliott

  Senior Production Executive

  Marks and Spencers

  Mr. M. Vestringhe

  Chairman of Catering and Allied

  In addition, the group will comprise members from health and agriculture departments.

  The advisory committee and the steering group will be holding their first meetings shortly.

  The Gulf
  Mr. Home Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the numbers and categories of NHS staff who are being called up for military service in the Gulf; and what assessment he has made of the consequences of this call-up on the finances of the NHS, and on the quality of service and waiting lists at hospitals.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The results are not yet known of the renewed call for volunteers made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. Until it is known who has volunteered or been called out, and from where, it is not possible to make any meaningful assessment of the consequences for the national health service.

  Incontinence
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many elderly people in Leicestershire are estimated to be in need of incontinence aids; how many such people are accommodated in residential nursing homes in(a) the public and (b) the private or voluntary sector; and how many and what percentage of such persons in each sector receive such incontinence pads free of charge.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Information about the demand for and supply of incontinence pads is not held centrally. However, the consultation document produced by Leicestershire health authority indicates that between 400 and 500 people living in private/voluntary residential care homes may be affected by the withdrawal of free incontinence aids by the district. The district health authority have taken measures to reduce the effect on these 348
  individuals by continuing to assess the needs of individual residents and the health authority will continue to advise home owners and provide supplies at a cost price.

  Mental Illness
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information he has concerning recent developments in the services for mentally ill in Exeter.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I visited Exeter on 23 November to open the new Cedars Health unit, a £2 million, 42-bed mental health unit.

  This is one of a number of recent developments in services for the mentally ill in Exeter. These include an 18-bed child and adolescent psychiatric unit; 10 units with a total of 150 beds, for confused elderly people; and 11 hostels and sheltered housing developments with a total of 85 places in conjunction with the voluntary sector.

  Eye Treatment
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether South Sefton district health authority has complied with his Department's guidelines on consultation procedures in respect of the proposed transfer of eye services to the Walton and Fazackerley hospitals;

  (2) how many beds will be provided for children at the Royal Liverpool Hospital for Specialist Eye Treatments.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The future of eye services in Liverpool and South Sefton, including services for children, is currently the subject of consultation by the Liverpool health authority. This is in accordance with laid down procedure. The hon. Member may wish to contact the health authority chairmen concerned for details.

  HIV Tests
  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions he has had with insurance companies about arrangements for counselling before a test for HIV is undertaken at a company's request.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave him on 19 December at column 243.

  Therapy Officers
  Mr. Arbuthnot
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he has received the report of the review of the functions of his Department's therapy officer posts; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We have now received and considered the report and arranged for copies to be placed in the library. Mr. John Cashman has earned our gratitude for the fair and thorough way in which he has carried out his task. The Department will be giving the departmental staff side the opportunity to comment on the recommendations and on the action proposed.

  At the outset, the report commends the present holders of therapy posts in the Department for their commitment, dedication, wide ranging experience and professionalism. We are happy to endorse those comments.

  The report's main recommendation is that the department should continue to have an establishment of full-time therapy officers. This should comprise one full-time post each for physiotherapy, occupational

  349
  therapy and speech therapy. We accept this recommendation. Future appointments to these three posts will be made for periods of five years and the need for the posts will be kept under review.

  The report acknowledges that the department may require additional advice on therapy services which could be met through consultancy contracts or short-term secondments related to specific projects. The case for buying in services in this way will be considered on an annual basis.

  A number of other recommendations are aimed at bringing the therapy officers more closely within the mainstream of the Department's management and budgetary arrangements. These will be put into effect as soon as practicable.

  Drugs Bill
  Mr. Lee
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the latest estimate of the drugs bill in 1990–91 and 1991–92.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Our latest forecast of the cost of drugs prescribed by general practitioners in 1990–91 is some £200 millions less than provided in the Estimates. This is forecast to give 1 per cent. growth in real terms over 1989–90, compared with an average of 4 per cent. a year in the five years from 1985–86 to 1989–90, and reflects the effectiveness of the prescribing analysis and cost (PACT) initiative in influencing prescribing by GPs. The forecast 350
  drugs bill for 1991–92 in our public expenditure plans is £2,310 millions, an increase of 3 per cent. in real terms over the forecast outturn for this year.

  Nurse Training
  Mr. Lee
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when the joint working group on nurse training and the independent care sector will publish its report.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  In 1987 the then Chief Executive of the National Health Service Management Board and the Chief Nursing Officer of the Department of Health met with senior representatives of the independent health care sector to review the sector's contribution to nurse training. It was agreed that a joint working group should be established in order to identify the extent of the independent sector's capacity to increase its contribution to nurse training.

  I have today arranged for copies of the group's report, "Training to Care" to be placed in the Library. The principal achievement is a clear commitment from private sector major providers and organisations representing the independent health care sector to increase their overall contribution to nurse training. This encouraging first step will be followed-up by discussion between representatives of the independent sector and the NHS management executive to explore ways of putting that commitment into practice.

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Guildford.

M.3 and M.4 Motorways: Road Works
Lord Boyd-Carpenter Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:
Why simultaneous disruption of traffic by road works on corresponding sections of the M.3 and M.4 motorways was permitted; and who was responsible for this decision.
The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, programming of recent road works on the M.3 in Surrey and on the M.4 in Berkshire was agreed by my department's South East network management division. On major maintenance works the department tries to ensure that, where there is a reasonably convenient alternative route and significant volumes of traffic will use it, the alternative remains free of traffic restrictions. It is not considered that the M.3 and M.4 operate as alternatives to each other for a significant volume of traffic.
I hope that my noble friend will accept my apologies for any inconvenience that he, and others, may have been caused.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, having wished my noble friend many happy returns of the day, perhaps I may ask him whether that episode indicates that, just as the Government are right to legislate to secure co-ordination when roads are dug up by public utilities, a tighter grip is needed on highway authorities. Is he aware that he has not been wholly accurately informed in respect of the considerable volume of traffic which, in view of the proximity of parts of the M.3 and M.4, uses one or the other if it is known that one or other of them is clear? It is for his department to see that there is proper co-ordination not just between public utilities but between highway authorities.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his kind wishes. I shall make it my birthday aim to try to improve the situation he describes. So far as concerns co-ordination, since 1985 the department has had guidelines on the length and spacing of road works and has required its agents to co-ordinate works on trunk and local roads. Since 1987, design standards for road carriageways have been changed to give them a much greater chance of exceeding their design life. I hope that a combination of those factors will greatly increase the life of new and newly strengthened carriageways.
Lord Mulley: My Lords, perhaps I may join the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, in wishing the Minister many happy returns of the day, and also
910
commiserate with him that over the years having a birthday so near to Christmas must have been a distinct disadvantage.
Will he apply more widely the important considerations that the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, drew to our attention, because I have already found that on the A.1 one moves from one road blockage to another three or four miles further down the road? The Secretary of State and the department are responsible for motorways and trunk roads. When they authorise the letting of contracts centrally will they ensure that there is the minimum of inconvenience to motorists and the minimum loss of economic wealth to the country which delays inevitably cause?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, we will. Our aim is to separate major works by at least 10 kilometres and keep their lengths to no more than four kilometres. There have been four major sets of maintenance works on lengths of the M.3 and M.4 between London and the A.34. All have used the form of contract known as lane rental, in which the contractor is paid a bonus for early completion and charged if he is late. That has proved to be an effective way of reducing the time taken to complete road works.
Baroness Strange: My Lords, I wish my noble friend many happy returns of the day, but is he aware that at this time of year the motorways are unusually congested by the hazards caused by teams of reindeer driven by men with white beards and wearing red coats?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I have not spotted any myself, but I take the point made by my noble friend. She and the House will be pleased to know that, as usual, there will be a two-week break on those contracts over the Christmas period and all contraflow and lane restrictions will be removed.
Lord Mellish: My Lords, is the Minister aware that some of us are staggered and amazed that no one seems to be working over the weekend at the so-called road works that go on all over the country and that the moment it becomes dark everything packs up except motorists and pedestrians, who are in a terrible state? It does not matter about them. Can the people who are digging holes in the roads be asked to work at the appropriate time so that the task can be completed as quickly as possible?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord. I have just referred to the lane rental contract system. I drove through the road works to which my noble friend's question referred on a Sunday morning at about nine o'clock and I was glad to see that the men were hard at work.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that it is important to clear motorways when they are blocked? I had to draw his attention recently to the blockage lasting six hours, over 14 miles of solid traffic, on the M.4 between 6.20 in the morning and 12.30. No one was able to move. There

911
were no directions. There seemed to be no effort to clear it quickly. Six hours is a big hazard, with an enormous cost to many people.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend. I have written to him on the subject and will follow up the correspondence. The unfortunate circumstances involved in that accident made it more difficult than normal to clear.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, is the Minister aware that although I do not know the circumstances of the occasion to which the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, refers, I looked carefully at the map when I saw the Question? It is wrong to say that the two roads are not close to each other. They are close to each other for a fair distance from the centre of London. Does he appreciate the point that the noble Lord made, that we have spent a great deal of time on the New Roads and Street Works Bill dealing with advance notice, co-ordination and street works registers, which we all accept? Will he make certain that he discusses the subject with the officials to ensure that the same principles apply to maintenance work on the motorways?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: Yes, my Lords, they will apply. As I said in an earlier answer, we try to co-ordinate them. As concerns the M.3 and M.4, a large amount of maintenance work is required on the two motorways over the next few years. It will not be possible to avoid working on both motorways simultaneously except by having more simultaneous work on one motorway.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that his point about the introduction of lane rental charges on motorway construction is soundly made? I recently saw a schedule of the savings that had been made in both time and money. It runs into many tens of millions of pounds as a result of the scheme. It has undoubtedly given the necessary incentive to contractors to study not only their interests but also the interests of traffic. Therefore the similar system introduced for public utilities under the current Bill will be much welcomed.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: Yes, my Lords, lane rental has been a great success. We go further. We have tried on stretches of the most heavily trafficked parts of the M.3, for example, to use tidal flow arrangements. So we are doing our best to try to minimise inconvenience.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, will the noble Lord's department give consideration to the continental practice of using mobile coning, where the disruption is limited to a small area in which the work is being carried out, instead of the present practice of coning off a half-mile stretch where road works may be done within the next couple of days?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, yes, we are moving towards the system of having mobile coning arrangements for minor works. Obviously for major road works we have to cone off a considerable part of the motorway.
Lord Elton: My Lords, could we commence simultaneous work on the next Question on the Order Paper?

BTEC
11.14 a.m.
Baroness Platt of Writtle Baroness Platt of Writtle asked Her Majesty's Government:
What proportion of first-year students enrolled on polytechnic and college degree courses in engineering and construction have BTEC qualifications.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, the latest available data from November 1989 show that 31 per cent. of first year students enrolled in English polytechnics and colleges on engineering and construction degree courses had BTEC qualifications. Almost one in 10 students entering all degree courses do so via the BTEC route.
Baroness Platt of Writtle: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that most encouraging reply. I hope that the figures will continue to rise. Will she do all she can to ensure that the DES encourages schools to run BTEC first courses and nationals so that those young people who are not attracted by academic courses and who may be ambitious can take up these excellent pre-degree qualifications which are both broad based and vocationally oriented? That will enable them to enter further and higher education in the future and further swell the numbers.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am pleased that my honourable friend the Minister of State for Education and Science announced last Thursday the introduction of BTEC first courses in schools. Of course there are no bars to schools offering BTEC diplomas at present. Our hope is that more schools will take advantage of it. As I am sure my noble friend will agree, it is important that these technical courses should have parity of esteem with the many educational subjects that parallel them.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, could my noble friend inform those of us who do not know what a BTEC is?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, they are business and educational courses. They involve business studies, administration and much of the technical and basic pre-vocational engineering courses.
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, can the Minister say what the Government intend to do not just to encourage schools to run the courses but higher education institutions, including the universities, to accept students with these qualifications? While perhaps encouraging, the figure of one in 10 is still a tiny proportion of all those entering degree level courses. Can the Minister say what the Government intend to do to increase the figure?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, as the BTEC first courses come in the curriculum in schools we hope that the higher education institutions will do much more to accept these young people. I said that we

913
wanted parity of esteem for the courses. We find that in the polytechnic sector much more has been done than in the university sector. We hope that the latter will take up the courses. As foundation courses for business and finance, engineering, design, construction, science and the distribution industries such as the hotel and catering and leisure industries, computing and agriculture, they are fine first pre-vocational courses. We hope that the universities will be much more enlightened in their admission policies.
Baroness David: My Lords, does the Minister think that it would be a good idea to get rid of school regulations altogether? Then there would be no question of whether or not people in schools and sixth form colleges could take courses such as BTEC which provide another avenue for entrance to higher education.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the answer is no. If all the regulations were abolished we should lose the important framework of the national curriculum. We do not wish to see the new courses excluding or precluding the foundation courses of English, maths, history, modern languages and so on. The technical courses ought to be part of the flexibility that will be introduced in post-14 and certainly 16-plus education. It is important that the best of the framework of the national curriculum is retained but there should be flexibility for young people to choose to go down the engineering and the more technical route.
Baroness Phillips: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is very important never to distinguish between the intellectual and those who use their hands? There is a great danger in that respect. We must never separate them. You have to be just as intelligent to take any of these courses as you do to take the classics. Will the Minister also accept that a group like the Engineering Council, which does absolutely sterling work for women, should be encouraged to make more visits to schools and talk to the girls about careers which they would enjoy?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am happy to join the noble Baroness in paying tribute to the Engineering Council. It has done much work in promoting engineering courses for women. However, I should say again that we believe parity of esteem for these subjects to be very important. For too long the idea has prevailed that going into engineering is somehow a second-class profession when compared with other professions such as law, accountancy and so on. We believe that they are all very important and that the manufacturing base in this country is also exceedingly important.
Lord Peston: My Lords, will the Minister clarify two matters? First, surely I am right in saying that BTEC is not about using one's hands; it is about approaching things in a practical way. That is a more sensible way of describing it. Secondly, can the noble Baroness further clarify her answer to the question put by my noble friend Lady David? Is she saying that there a re no restrictions within the school regulations which prevent schools using BTEC in any way that they like? I understood that there were still problems about introducing BTEC into our schools. It may well
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be that the department is doing something about the matter, but I believe that there are problems at present.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the first formal step is to introduce BTEC initially at 16-plus. It becomes an option at 16-plus. Active consideration is being given to formally introducing BTEC courses that would dovetail with the national curriculum at 14-plus so that there is more technical vocational education taking place. I am sorry if I keep using acronyms but if, through the introduction of TVEI, the prevocational course, the CPVE, which is now to he overseen by City and Guilds and further developed and improved, and also through the introduction of BTEC and Royal Society of Arts courses and City and Guilds, flexibility can be achieved in order to retain the best of the national curriculum, our young people will be much better served.
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, does the Minister agree that we will never attain parity of esteem for BTEC while Ministers keep referring to A-levels as the gold standard?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, Ministers from the Dispatch Box have claimed that A-levels are very important. The standard of A-levels is sacrosanct. However, that does not mean to say that BTEC is not important and that it should not be at a standard which is acceptable to our young people.

Health Authorities: Membership
11.23 p.m.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Baroness Hollis of Heigham asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are satisfied that health service users are sufficiently represented at meetings held by health authorities.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Hooper): My Lords, all members of health authorities are users, or potential users, of health services. The members of the newly-constituted health authorities have a wide range of individual experience and abilities. Their knowledge and links with the local community make them well equipped to ensure that the needs of patients are sympathetically understood and that an effective range of services is provided to meet them.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, is she aware that until the latest reorganisation took place, about 90 per cent. of community health councils were allowed to attend the full meeting of their health authorities but that following reorganisation the figure is now barely 35 per cent? So the interest of the patients which they were statutorily established to represent is being neglected. Will the Minister correct the situation?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I am certainly not aware of the statistics put forward by the noble Baroness. In fact, there has been no change in the legal status of community health councils. I am aware that the Association of Community Health Councils recently issued a survey. However, as the new

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authorities were only constituted in September, it is rather early days to come to a conclusion as to how things are working. It is probable that many authorities have met only once during that short time and that some meetings have been taken up with confidential matters such as appointments. That is not necessarily the pattern which will be followed at future meetings.
Lord Auckland: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the abolition of the house committees in national health hospitals is making itself tragically felt? I should declare an interest in that I served on two such committees. Further, is she satisfied that the community health councils which are much larger and which do not have so much local representation really fulfil the requirements implied in the noble Baroness's Question?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, authorities are being encouraged to test consumer opinion and to act upon their findings. In addition, the department is funding various initiatives and working with health authorities to develop effective ways of ascertaining consumer views which we recognise as being most important. Community health councils play a key role in representing the local community and channelling the views of consumers to health authorities. We are very much encouraging collaboration between the community health councils and the health authorities.
Lord Glenamara: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware—I am sure that she is not—that in the past year I attended hospital twice for interviews? On one occasion I waited three hours and on the next occasion I waited for four hours from 9 a.m. to 1 p.m? Does she feel that that sort of experience should be represented in health authority meetings?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I am now aware of the noble Lord's personal experience. Of course it is the role of community health councils to ensure that that sort of thing does not happen.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, with five members of district and regional health authorities now working as paid officers for the first time, does the Minister think that the authorities may seem rather bureaucratic and remote to the communities they serve?
Baroness Hooper: No, my Lords. Our impression is that a very wide range of individual experience and abilities is now evident in the composition of the boards all over the country. There is also a wide representation of local knowledge. People have been appointed for the personal contributions that they can make. We believe that they will be extremely effective in that respect.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, is it not a fact that many health authorities open their meetings to the public? Is my noble friend the Minister aware that I serve on such an authority? Is she further aware that it is not only a matter of members of the community health council attending; indeed, any member of the public may attend? In addition, there
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is considerable consultation with local people on any issue both through the community health council and directly through the health authorities.
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Of course, health authorities are subject to the provisions of the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960. It has been made clear to them that they have legal obligations under that Act and that there should be a presumption in favour of open and public discussion. However, it must be left to authorities to decide how often they meet and what should be discussed in public or in private. I have already quoted the example of appointments which require confidential arrangements. The authorities concerned bear the responsibility of deciding whether the public and press should be excluded from meetings, bearing in mind the requirements of the 1960 Act.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, can the Minister say how she equates the statements made when the National Health Service and Community Care Act was going through Parliament that there would be no change to the observer status of community health councils with those in the new guidance circular No. EL(90)185 which indicate that the rights of community health councils to attend the confidential parts of meetings have apparently been withdrawn?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I have already said that the legal status remains the same. That is true in relation to admission under the circumstances to which the noble Countess referred.
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, I am chairman of the South West Thames Regional Health Authority. Is my noble friend the Minister aware that I held a meeting with all my community health council chairmen three weeks ago at which I asked them whether they were less involved in such matters and they replied emphatically, no? Does she agree that there are many other initiatives taking place involving the public, including, for the first time ever, question time at the end of health authority meetings; seminars held for voluntary organisations and the public; exhibitions mounted in shopping precincts to involve the public; and consumer surveys which have now become commonplace within all FHSAs and district health authorities?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend who speaks from direct knowledge and responsibility in this area. I would also point to an example where the secretary of a CHC has been appointed to the board of a health authority. Flexibility and the adoption of a variety of solutions are the keynote.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, I do not know who it was that the noble Baroness invited. To be invited to a meeting is quite different from being involved in decision making. Does the Minister accept that much of the public's lack of confidence in the Government's disorganisation programmes for the NHS is due partly to the fact that people feel that decisions are taken over their heads and that they are not brought into the process of decision making?

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Secondly, in view of the fact that the new Minister, Mr. Waldegrave, is, in a welcome way, considering which parts of the NHS reorganisation should be scrapped and which should be kept, is this not a good time for him to take a new look at the role of consumers in the decision-making process in the NHS in the future?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I have always been aware of the noble Lord's lack of confidence in our reforms but I am not aware that there is a general public lack of confidence in them. I believe that the reforms have wide support. As to the latter part of the noble Lord's question, I reaffirm, as we have always said, that the whole process is evolutionary. We shall monitor closely how the reforms develop, and we shall make sure that the public and users of the health service have the best possible service.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, has the Minister seen a single public opinion poll that suggests that the public is other than opposed about three-to-one to what the Government are doing?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, we shall have the most valuable public opinion poll of all within the next couple of years. I can guarantee that.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Government rely very heavily on local voluntary bodies to help to keep the health service going? Does it not therefore follow that the health authorities' constitution should be enlarged to include representatives of local opinion rather than, as at present, appointed individuals who are not necessarily involved with local hospitals?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, members who are appointed are all expected to live, work or have some other link with the local community in which they serve. The results of the appointments show that to be true.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, can we make a happy return to the Order Paper by taking the next Question?

British Aerospace: Redundancy Counselling
11.33 a.m.
Lord Molloy Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will consider having discussions with British Aerospace and the relevant trade unions and professional associations with a view to helping those who will be made redundant by British Aerospace in the near future.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Viscount Ullswater): My Lords, local officials of the Employment Department, Employment Service and relevant Training and Enterprise Councils have held discussions with representatives of the plants concerned to discuss how best to help those affected by the restructuring recently announced by British Aerospace.
The Employment Service has already announced a package of help and advice which will include mini
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jobcentres on site, special redundancy counselling and a vacancy canvassing service. The Training and Enterprise Councils will focus on the training needs in their particular areas consequent upon their restructuring.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for that reply. I know that he will understand that everyone will hope that something will be achieved as a result of what is being done for British Aerospace. However, does he agree that it does not appear that that will be possible, bearing in mind the statement made this week by the Chancellor, Mr. Lamont, that unemployment figures will rise dramatically? Does the Minister not agree that behind the word "figures" are human beings—people with families—whose standards of living will be drastically reduced and who will have grave worries imposed upon them because unemployment is rising to its highest level for nine years? Does he agree that what may be done for British Aerospace will be trivial in relation to the massive unemployment that will result unless there is a dramatic change in the Government's policy?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, the noble Lord will appreciate that staffing levels and company structure are a matter for the commercial judgment of companies themselves. It is inevitable that companies must rationalise to maintain their competitiveness. It would be counter-productive for the Government to interfere in such a normal commercial practice. However, government programmes exist to alleviate the effect of job losses and to ease adjustments. They include measures by the Employment Service, the DTI Enterprise Initiative and the Department of the Environment urban programmes.
Lord Carter: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is considerable anxiety that the BAe factory sites at Preston and Kingston may be sold off for property development, in which case they would not be available to provide alternative employment? Since it is a Government decision which has caused the problem, does the Minister agree that it would be appropriate for British Aerospace to use part of the very substantial sweetener it received from the Government when it bought the Rover Group to finance alternative employment for its extremely skilled workforce?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, the noble Lord touched on the most important point at the end of his question. We do not have any information about those who will be made compulsorily redundant by the company. However, it has said that it will close a works in the Preston area—at Warton—and at Kingston. It will release people onto the labour market. Those people will be mostly skilled workers. The noble Lord is no doubt aware that in some areas of the country there is a shortage of skilled workers. It is very much hoped that the greatest proportion of those involved will have no difficulty in finding further employment.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Kingston works are served by a highly

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experienced workforce which has been in the aviation industry for a very long time, and that its dispersal would amount to real damage to our economy?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his comments. I hope that the skills that the workforce in the Kingston works has in abundance will not be lost to the economy or to the country. Kingston is an area of very low unemployment and there should be great opportunities in that area for redeployment.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, it is all very well to give answers in the way the Minister has this morning but is he aware that it is not easy, even for skilled people, to uproot their families, sell their houses and move, especially when mortgages are so high and there is widespread difficulty in obtaining houses? There is also the question of children's education. One cannot just move overnight. Does the noble Viscount not recognise that the difficulties in the Preston area of East Lancashire are tremendous?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, I agree entirely. I did not seek to downgrade the problem. Of course there will be great difficulties in an area such as Preston, where up to 3,000 people may lose their jobs. However, we do not know the precise numbers yet. I suggested that those with skills will have a very much better chance of finding work. I also said in my first Answer that the Employment Service is now taking steps to make certain that other jobs are available. That is in addition to the trouble being taken by British Aerospace to try to alleviate the problem.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that we should be indebted to the Government for disposing of Rover to British Aerospace to enable the company to diversify to some extent from being a single product industry? Does he agree that the company is succeeding to a significant degree, and that that will undoubtedly help to ameliorate the cuts on the aircraft side which are inevitable and to preserve some employment?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, that is entirely true. My noble friend has put his finger on the point. The company is anticipating the reduction in orders for Tornados. However, the anticipated loss is only some 7 per cent. of the amount that it received from the Ministry of Defence and it has diversified into other areas as well.
Lord Molloy: My Lord, is the noble Viscount aware that leading figures in banking, commerce and industry have expressed grave apprehension about the possibility of our nation sliding into a serious slump? Is he further aware that only today the adviser to the Prime Minister, Sir Alan Walters, said that if there were not to be a dramatic change in government policy we should be into a very serious slump in a matter of months rather than years?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, the Government have already taken serious steps to combat the high inflation which is the root cause of many of the problems that we face. The RPI is now coming down
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and will come down in the months to come. That is the best way to cure the problems and leave industry in a much better position to face the future.
Lord Mellish: My Lords, will the Minister say something about the allegation made on television, which the general public has to take as its guide and mentor, to the effect that British Aerospace sends a great number of orders overseas for other people to do the work although its own workforce could do it? Is that true or not? If the allegation is not true, does the Minister agree that it ought to be denied?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, I am not aware of the problem that the noble Lord brings to my attention. However, I shall make inquiries and certainly write to him.
Viscount Caldecote: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that exports of aerospace products exceed imports by some £3.5 billion a year and that British Aerospace contributes a very large proportion of those exports? In view of that fact, will he and his right honourable friends do everything possible to help British Aerospace obtain new contracts and so continue that important contribution to the balance of payments problem which is so significant at the moment?
Viscount Ullswater: My Lords, of course British Aerospace is a major contributor to our exports. The company is in good shape. Obviously all the contracts put forward by the Ministry of Defence are made on a competitive basis. However, I expect that British Aerospace is in a good position to win contracts.

Consolidated Fund Bill
11.44 a.m.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate of the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill, and read a first time.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been dispensed with (pursuant to Resolution of 19th December), Bill read a second time; Committee negatived; Bill read a third time, and passed.

Fraserburgh Harbour Order Confirmation Bill
The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne.)
On Question, Bill read a third time.
The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne.)
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I cannot let this Bill pass without saying a few words of welcome. The improvements to the harbour which are due to start next month and which the harbour commissioners are empowered to carry out by Part III of the

921
Bill include a dry dock facility and harbour deepening which will make possible the building of a pelagic fish processing plant. The jobs which those will provide will contribute materially to the prosperity of the port and town.
The harbour commissioners, of which I am one, are much indebted to both the present and previous Secretaries of State, to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde and to the noble Earl, Lord Strathmore and Kinghorne, for piloting the Bill through this House and making sure that it did not get lost in the Christmas rush. Most of all we are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson of Bowden, when he was Minister of State, for the enormous amount of trouble and interest that he took and above all for squeezing out of the Treasury the necessary grant to pay for the works.
The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne: My Lords, I thank the noble Lady for her kind comments.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove; My Lords, I too should like to say a few words. This Bill has gone through all its stages fairly quickly, as it should because anything that will improve the prosperity and work at Peterhead harbour must be very welcome. The noble Lady will be more aware than most of us that Peterhead is in a very difficult stage just now. That has nothing to do with the harbour. The problem arises much further afield. I hope that in every way possible the Bill will make Peterhead again one of the great ports for fishing in the United Kingdom.
The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his comments.
On Question, Bill passed.

Namibia Bill [H.L.]
Lord Reay: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Caithness, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Reay.)
On Question, Bill read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Bill [H.L.]
11.46 a.m.
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
The purpose of the Bill is to make it easier to enforce civil court judgments throughout most of Europe. The Bill will enable the United Kingdom to ratify the Lugano Convention on jurisdiction and the enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters, which was opened for signature on 16th September 1988 and which the United Kingdom signed on 18th September 1989. The parties to the convention are the member states of the European
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Community and the member states of the European Free Trade Association: Austria, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland.
The convention is closely modelled on the 1968 Brussels Convention, made between the members of the European Community alone, to which we gave effect by the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982. Although there are differences between the two conventions, they are remarkably few.
When my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone introduced the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Bill in 1981 as Lord Chancellor, he referred to the increased commercial and social mobility which had followed the creation of the Common Market. He went on to say:
"This phenomenon is not likely to recede, whether as between the member states or in any other context."
This new convention bears out that belief. A necessary complement of this increased commercial and social mobility is increased legal co-operation, particularly in what has been described as the free movement of judgments.
The effective enforcement of judgments is an essential part of the legal process. It is most undesirable for a person to embark on litigation and to be successful, only to discover that the other party has no assets in the country where the litigation is taking place but assets in others. International agreements can assist successful parties by ensuring that a judgment obtained in one country is readily enforceable in another. In the past, such agreements have tended to be bilateral. Now, with the Brussels and Lugano conventions, there is a virtually uniform system of civil jurisdiction and enforcement of judgments throughout Western Europe.
Before I explain the provisions of the Bill I should say something about its form. Rather than having a lengthy, separate Bill which in effect repeated most of the provisions of the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982, we have operated by way of amendment to the 1982 Act, so that the two conventions, which are so similar, may be found in the same place.
Clause 1 adds a new section, Section 3A, to the 1982 Act to give the Lugano Convention the force of law in the United Kingdom. This is the key provision in the Bill, which will have the effect of submitting questions about jurisdiction and enforcement in cases which have a connection with an EFTA member state to be determined in accordance with the convention. The Bill does not affect purely domestic cases or cases where the link is with a member state of the European Community. Your Lordships have commented on past occasions that it is helpful to have the whole text of the relevant convention set out in a schedule, and we have done that here.
The new Section 3B of the 1982 Act highlights one of the principal differences between the Lugano Convention and the Brussels Convention. EFTA member states were unable to agree that the European Court of Justice, which is a Community organ, should have jurisdiction over judgments given by, or to he enforced in, their countries. They agreed, however,

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that it would be desirable for the Lugano Convention to be interpreted in as uniform a way as possible. The contracting parties therefore drew up Protocol 2 to the convention, which requires courts to have regard to principles laid down by the courts of other contracting states when interpreting the convention. To make this possible, it also sets up a system whereby information on judgments delivered under both conventions is to be transmitted between contracting states.
As with the Brussels Convention and subsequent accession conventions and, as your Lordships may remember from earlier this year, the Rome Convention on contractual obligations, a commentary on the Lugano Convention was produced by two eminent lawyers, one from a European Community member state and one from an EFTA member state. Following our previous legislative practice, the new Clause 3B provides that the courts may consider the report when construing the provisions of the convention. This is expressed to be without prejudice to the practice of the courts in considering other matters such as the works of academics. I should add that, although the report was written by two individuals, it was considered by all the governments of the contracting states and thererfore has a semi-official status.
Clause 1 also inserts a new Section 9(1A) in the 1982 Act to deal with the question whether a particular case is to be governed by the Lugano Convention or by the Brussels Convention. This is determined by Article 54B of the Lugano Convention and, because of its importance, I believe that it is appropriate for attention to be drawn to this provision in the body of the Bill.
Because the Bill operates by way of adding to the 1982 Act the Lugano Convention and references to it, various terms now used in the Act require modification. References to the conventions are accordingly to be replaced by references to the Brussels Conventions or the Lugano Conventions and there are to be references to Brussels contracting states and Lugano contracting states. The task of incorporating provisions for the Lugano Convention in the 1982 Act is greatly simplified by the fact that its substantive articles have the same numbers as do those of the Brussels Convention—a small matter, but an important one.
Clause 3 of the Bill introduces Schedule 2, which makes other necessary amendments to the 1982 Act. For the most part these consist of adding references to the Lugano Convention.
It was agreed during the negotiations of the Lugano Convention that there should be an open system of territorial extent so that each contracting state would be left free to choose to which, if any, of its territories the convention should extend. The convention therefore contains no provision as to territorial extent and the same now applies to the Brussels Convention, following the amendments that were made to it by the Spanish and Portuguese Accession Convention. The
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provisions as to territorial extent in the 1982 Act will continue to apply when it has been amended by this Bill.
I turn now to the convention itself. I shall indicate those places at which it diverges from the Brussels Convention, although I hope that it will not be necessary to describe these in any great detail. The convention falls into two main parts: jurisdiction, which is dealt with in Articles 2 to 24, and recognition and enforcement, which are dealt with in Articles 25 to 49. The application of the convention to civil and commercial matters means that it will touch on a wide range of subjects, including commercial cases, maintenance, insurance and consumer contracts, negligence, land and trusts. Some areas, which tend to be the subject of special legislation, are excluded. Among these are divorce, insolvency, taxation and arbitration.
The basis of a court's jurisdiction is that a defendant is to be sued in the courts of the contracting state in which he is domiciled. For the purposes of our law an individual is domiciled here if he is resident in the United Kingdom and the nature and circumstances of his residence indicate that he has a substantial connection with the United Kingdom.
Jurisdiction is also given to other courts in some cases. In matters relating to tort and delict, for example, the courts for the place where the harmful event occurred have jurisdiction, as well as those of the defendant's domicile; and in matters relating to a contract the courts for the place where the contract is to be performed also have jurisdiction.
The Lugano Convention and the Brussels Convention have slightly different provisions for contracts of employment. There are special rules in both for insurance contracts and consumer contracts, designed to protect the insured party and the consumer, whose bargaining position will usually be weaker. Exclusive jurisdiction, regardless of the parties' domicile, is given to courts in some cases. Rights in immovable property, for example, will usually be determined by the courts of the place where the property is situated. There is an exception to this in both conventions, although they differ in detail, in the case of holiday homes when the landlord and the tenant do not reside in the same state as the holiday home.
The convention permits the parties themselves, on certain conditions, to agree that a particular court shall have jurisdiction. This will be of special benefit to us since it will mean that our commercial court, which enjoys a high reputation, will still be able to hear cases where the parties wish it to have jurisdiction although neither may be domiciled here.
The objective of the provisions on enforcement is to make the enforcement of civil judgments as nearly automatic as possible between one contracting state and another. The scope for a court to refuse to enforce a judgment is therefore very limited. In the past the enforcing court was obliged to satisfy itself that jurisdiction had been properly assumed by the court which gave the judgment. Now, because the

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convention has laid down the rules of jurisdiction which I have described, only in exceptional cases may the court which is being asked to enforce a judgment refuse to do so on the grounds that the issuing court had no jurisdiction to hear the case. Nor may judgments be reviewed as to their substance.
The convention provides for appeals against a decision authorising enforcement or against a refusal for enforcement. I should add that the Lugano and Brussels conventions go wider than that of our traditional system for the enforcement of judgments, which is limited to lump-sum judgments. Under the conventions it is also possible to enforce judgments for an amount which has not yet been fixed, continuing payments and both final and interlocutory injunctions.
Of the remaining articles, there are three to which I should refer. As I mentioned earlier, Article 54B governs the relationship between the Lugano Convention and the Brussels Convention. The Brussels Convention will continue to apply in relations between EC member states; for example, where a person domiciled in one EC member state is sued in another or where the enforcement of a judgment given in one EC state is sought in another EC state. The Lugano Convention will be applied, in matters of jurisdiction, where the defendant is domiciled in an EFTA state, where such a state has exclusive jurisdiction under the convention and where the parties have agreed to confer jurisdiction on the courts of such a state. It will also be applied to resolve any question where concurrent or related proceedings are begun in an EC state and in an EFTA state. Thirdly, in matters of recognition and enforcement, it will be applied where either the state of origin or the state addressed is an EFTA state.
The entry into force of the Lugano Convention is dealt with in Article 61, which requires the ratification of one EC member state and one EFTA state. The convention will come into force on the first day of the third month following these two ratifications. Thereafter it will come into force, for a particular country, three months after it has ratified. The fact that only two ratifications are needed is a measure of the importance accorded to the convention by the contracting states.
Although the original parties to the convention are the member states of the European Community and of the European Free Trade Association, Article 62 enables other countries to accede to the convention provided that all the members of the EC and EFTA agree. The possibility of extending it is, to my mind, another welcome feature of the convention. It may be, for example, that countries in Eastern Europe or the Commonwealth will be attracted by it.
I believe the Lugano Convention to be a very considerable achievement, which builds on the success of the Brussels Convention. Links between the European Community and the European Free Trade Association are becoming stronger and, as your Lordships will know, all the member states hope to create a European economic area by the end of 1992. The United Kingdom has substantial trading
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relationships with Sweden and Switzerland which will benefit from the convention. I should add that Sweden has been less willing than most countries to enforce foreign judgments and the Swedish participation in the convention is therefore particularly to be welcomed.
A draft of the Lugano Convention was circulated to interested parties in the United Kingdom before it was adopted by the contracting states and was received most warmly. Subsequent consultations have also produced a positive response. I believe that the convention will strengthen legal and economic co-operation throughout most of Europe. It is an indication of our belief in the importance of the convention that we have brought forward this legislation so promptly. I commend the Bill to the House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
12 noon
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, when outlining the provisions of this important and extremely useful Bill the noble and learned Lord referred to the Second Reading of a similar Bill which became the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982 and is related to the Brussels Convention. It has been interesting for me to recall that the then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, opened the debate on Second Reading. I am sorry that he is not in his seat. I had the privilege of following him, and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, then the Lord Advocate, wound up the debate.
I mention that fact because the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, said:
"I rather feel that it should be accompanied by a Government health warning. There is nothing whatever that I can do to make my speech short, and those who expect to find it of throbbing human interest will, I fear, be wholly disappointed.—[Official Report, 3/12/81; col. 1126.]
The Bill that has now been introduced by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor did not need that introduction. In a succinct speech he explained the merits of the Bill. Although I noted that interest was not throbbing within the Chamber, it was obvious that every Member of your Lordships' House listened most attentively.
I agree entirely with the noble and learned Lord that it is useful to follow the practice of attaching the convention to the Bill as a schedule. That has been done in this case. It is most useful for practitioners and for laymen in the commercial world who wish to know precisely what the Bill does in relation to the convention and what the convention does in relation to the Bill. The Lugano Convention has not yet been ratified by any state because there has been no time to do so. Can the noble and learned Lord indicate whether any difficulties are foreseen in regard to ratification? He mentioned difficulties being experienced by the EFTA countries in accepting the jurisdiction of the European Court. Are there any further difficulties about which we should be informed before ratification takes place? One appreciates that the number of member states needed to ratify the

927
convention is two. Can the noble and learned Lord tell the House when the United Kingdom intends to ratify the convention?
The noble and learned Lord referred to Clause 1 3B(2) which states:
"Without prejudice to any practice of the courts as to the matters"—
and I emphasise the word "matters",
"which may be considered apart from this section, the report on the Lugano Convention",
written by the two learned lawyers who are mentioned in the Bill,
"may be considered in ascertaining the meaning or effect in any provision of the Convention and shall be given such weight as is appropriate in the circumstances".
I am a little puzzled. I know that in European legislation it is not unusual to see reference to a report to which attention can be paid but it is unusual to see such a reference in our legislation. The mystery is whether it is necessary statutorily to include that reference in the Bill because, if not, the report cannot be considered. If so, does it mean that any subsequent report—and it may be an amplification of this report made by others—cannot be considered because it is not mentioned in the statute?
Can the noble and learned Lord clarify a matter to which he obliquely referred? In Section 3(3) of the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982 there appears a similar provision referring to those reports. However, the introductory words are:
"Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1)".
Subsection (1) refers to the relevant decisions of the European Court. We have heard a good reason why that provision is not in this Bill; namely, the entrance of the EFTA countries into this issue. However, I wonder about the use of the word "matters" in the clause to which the noble and learned Lord and I have referred. Clause 1 3B(2) states:
"Without prejudice to any practice of the courts as to the matters which may be considered apart from this section … "
The noble and learned Lord indicated that the provision means that our courts can consider any other worthy academic works which they see fit to consider. Does that include our precedents? Does it include our decided cases? Does it include the introduction of common law principles which might be applicable? Does the word "matters" cover the issues indicated by the noble and learned Lord? Is he sure that the word "matters" covers academic works other than the report referred to in the Bill?
I appreciate the attempt that has been made in the convention and in the Bill to achieve uniformity. When I first looked at the Bill I wondered whether sufficient arrangements had been made to ensure that administrative uniformity had been achieved. If so, I had intended to ask the noble and learned Lord about those arrangements. Therefore, I was delighted to read Article 2 of Protocol No. 2 at page 31 of the Bill. I shall quote the article because I regard it as being most useful. It states:
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"The Contracting Parties agree to set up a system of exchange of information concerning judgments delivered pursuant to this Convention as well as relevant judgments under the Brussels Convention. This system shall comprise:

— transmission to a central body by the competent authorities of judgments delivered by courts of last instance and the Court of Justice of the European Communities as well as judgments of particular importance which have become final and have been delivered pursuant to this Convention or the Brussels Convention,

—classification of these judgments by the central body including, as far as necessary, the drawing-up and publication of translations and abstracts,

—communication by the central body of the relevant documents to the competent national authorities of all signatories and acceding States to the Convention and to the Commission of the European Communities".

Very usefully, it goes on to say:
"The central body is the Registrar of the Court of Justice of the European Communities".
That is a very tidy administrative arrangement for seeing that the member states which are parties to the convention and which will be governed by this Bill will be able to have before them a sensible administrative machinery for uniformity.
It would be useful to the legal profession in particular but other professions too to know when it is likely that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will be making the appropriate order to bring that into effect. Presumably it will be done under Clause 5(3) of this Bill. Obviously one does not expect an accurate date to be indicated. However, it would be helpful to have a timescale with an estimate attached.
My last observation has a contemporary note about it. From these Benches, we wish the noble and learned Lord a very merry Christmas and a well deserved rest.
12.11 p.m.
Lord Wilberforce: My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, in commenting on this sort of Bill. He always does so with great skill and grace. I follow him only because the Bill is of some importance and I felt that it was only due to the noble and learned Lord who explained it to us with such clarity to make a few observations upon it from these Benches.
I entirely agree that once we have brought into effect the Brussels Convention of 1968, it is now a logical step to extend the process to the EFTA countries through the medium of this new Lugano Convention. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that the right way to do that has certainly been to use the 1982 Act and to introduce this by way of amendment.
There is no doubt that certain benefits are to be gained from the process of harmonisation of laws when we are in the Community of 12 states. It is an advantage to have whatever uniformity can be achieved. The process of working towards that is no doubt good. The point I wish to make this morning is that that process, although beneficial, carries with it a certain price to be paid. I draw attention to that not in a carping spirit in relation to the Bill but in view of the

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future, because no doubt the process will be carried further and we shall continue to have Bills of this kind, or similar to it, presented to us for approval.
Taking the convention in its two parts, I suggest that the more important part is not that which relates to the enforcement of judgments, although that is very important, but Title II, which deals with jurisdiction. It introduces a number of rules displacing the English and Scottish rules which exist in our respective common laws. That is an important section of our law. It is very involved and often comes before the courts. It relates to the question of when a court may take jurisdiction over a case, particularly when more than one country is involved. When multi-national corporations and international contracts are involved, that is frequently the situation. An action can be brought either in England, France or Germany and a court must decide in which court the action is to proceed. Unless there are regulations, there may be conflicting decisions. Each court may claim or refuse jurisdiction.
Under the present system of common law, such questions are dealt with quickly. They can come before an English or Scottish court by way of a preliminary point, they are dealt with in a very short time and, what is even more important, decisions can easily be found. They are all reported in The Annual Practice in England and a similar book in Scotland. Practitioners can easily obtain access to the decisions and advise their clients as to what is to be the likely result.
In Title II, Articles 2 to 24, this convention has elaborate rules. Judging by experience of the Brussels Convention of 1968, which is similar in all material respects, there are likely to be a number of disputes about those rules. There have been a large number of disputes under the Brussels Convention, particularly as regards Article 17, which is very important. It deals with what is called prorogation of jurisdiction. In common language, that is cases where parties agree that such and such a court is to or is not to have jurisdiction. Many of those cases have been referred to the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg.
I have given to the noble and learned Lord rather short notice of this question, but I wonder whether he can give me any idea of the number of cases which have been referred to the European Court under that section. I suspect that there are very many judging by the references in the footnotes to the textbooks, which of course are not entirely complete or up to date. It seems to me that a large number of cases have been the subject of international litigation and have been referred to Luxembourg under that part of the Act.
The situation under the Lugano Convention is slightly different. As the noble and learned Lord pointed out, it is true that matters are not to be automatically referred to the Court in Luxembourg if EFTA countries do not want that. Under Protocol No. 2 there is the machinery under which regard is to be had to decisions of other courts. I am not quite clear as to whether regard is to be had to decisions at
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Luxembourg. I should think that that must be the case because decisions cannot be given which fail to take account of the highest court in Europe.
Therefore, practitioners are faced with the fact that they may have to bring much more elaborate proceedings to determine jurisdiction. They must search further for authorities and guidance and will find it more difficult to advise their clients.
As regards the judgment part of the convention, which is certainly of very great importance although to my mind slightly less important than Title II, the same problems arise although perhaps in an even more accentuated form. As the noble and learned Lord said, there is no doubt that that part of the convention has potential benefits. It must be good and simple to be able to register a judgment in another state and have it automatically enforced. However, it is not quite as simple as that. There are a number of qualifications, as there must be a number of exceptions in the convention, and there is no doubt that the convention must be interpreted in relation to the enforcement of judgments.
In interpreting the convention, courts must have regard to external matters outside the convention. I have no objection to that. In particular, they must have regard to the other texts of the convention. Our courts have sanctioned that process. What do we have here? In relation to the Brussels Convention 1968 there are four texts. In relation to the Accession Convention by which this country joined the Brussels Convention, there are three more texts. In relation to the Lugano Convention, there are 14 equally authentic texts. In relation to the future, we may look forward to the noble and learned Lord, if he occupies that position for as long as he will, coming before us and asking us to approve up to 18 texts in Polish, Czech, Hungarian and so on. They will all be equally authentic and may have to be referred to should any question of doubt arise in relation to the convention.
One must not exaggerate that. One can conjure up nightmares which are not totally real. Many cases can be dealt with easily on the English text and it is not very likely that much light will be thrown on a question of interpretation by reference to the Greek text. Nevertheless, the problem is real. These multi-texts are all of equal authority and if there is a dispute they must be looked at.
Those texts are not easy to obtain. They are not to be found in the Library here. More than once I have asked for another text of the convention and even with the resources here it is necessary to refer to Brussels and the text must be sent over from Brussels. We must consider the position of the ordinary barrister or country solicitor who is faced with the task of obtaining these texts. It is by no means an easy problem to solve. It becomes even more difficult when dealing with the growing tendency of Acts of Parliament to refer to reports of professors. We found that in the Contracts (Applicable Law) Act. We found the report of Mr. Jenard mentioned in the Brussels Convention. In the Accession Convention we found mention of Mr. Schlosser, and in this convention we have mention of both Mr. Jenard and Mr. Möller.

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In order to obtain the reports one first needs a copy of the Official Journal of the Communities, which is not to be found at every branch of W. H. Smith. One must then find the relevant passage among the 2,000 pages of the journal. The report itself is usually of considerable length—around 50 pages. The unfortunate country solicitor in Merthyr Tydfil must extract the relevant—probably very relevant—passage of these very good reports to which the European Court often refers. One cannot do without them. The unfortunate practitioner in York or Inverness must dig out the reports and find out what they mean before he can properly advise his client. That is all part of the price to be paid for what appears to be a beneficial process.
I should like to leave two points with the Government. I shall also mention one slightly different topic. First, perhaps the Government can help the ordinary practitioner by making matters more accessible. I do not quarrel with the process generally. But if the Government think fit to embark on a regime of harmonisation and to impose it on our courts in substitution for perfectly satisfactory English or Scottish rules, they have a responsibility to make the task of practitioners easier. We cannot expect the ordinary practitioner to go out and search for, and to buy at considerable expense, the essential documents on which he must rely.
The Government could perhaps help directly by consolidating the amendments to the 1982 Act. I have no doubt that they will do that in due course. Article 2 of Protocol No. 2 is of some help. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, referred to that. It is registered at Luxembourg under the Registrar of the Court which provides for relevant cases to be assembled. That is no doubt of some good, but it looks somewhat bureaucratic for a committee to be set up to examine how it is to be run. It is probably largely professorial in character.
On top of that I ask the noble and learned Lord to consider whether there is a case at this time for a cheap and comprehensive government publication to be produced, which will provide practitioners with the relevant material. The only alternative is private enterprise. Private enterprise does help; Mr. Lawrence Collins produced an excellent book on the 1982 Act. However, there are limits to what private enterprise can do. There is no money to be made from that kind of book. It must be produced as a matter of public service, and there are limits to the public service spirit of such a gentleman even as Mr. Lawrence Collins. With the deepest respect to the Government I suggest that they should take more steps towards making the task of the practitioner easier.
My second point relates to the general process of harmonisation conventions in areas where English or Scottish law is perfectly satisfactory. I enter a plea for more practitioners to be involved in the process of negotiating conventions. They are largely arranged by professors, very learned gentlemen, who are much more interested in the continental theories of harmonisation of laws than in the practical jobs of
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those who must attend the courts. Again, with respect, I urge caution against that extending process of incorporating professors' reports into Acts of Parliament. I have no objection to it jurisprudentially; it is probably quite a good thing. But we are adding enormously to the mass of material which the unfortunate practitioners have to consider. I respectfully urge that a brake should be imposed on that process.
My next point is perhaps a little heretical. I suggest that consideration should be given to reducing the number of authentic texts. It becomes quite absurd when one says that there are 14 authentic texts of a particular convention. If there is any argument in favour of a single currency, which I doubt, there is surely an equal or greater argument in favour of a single authentic text. We waived our sovereignty in relation to the English language on a number of occasions in favour of a French or other text, and the French have done the same in favour of English. The time has now come, as the Community extends and we take in the EFTA countries and probably the countries of Eastern Europe, to say that we should have one text which is authentic. Conveners of reference can by all means have their national text, but do not let us force them to look at all the others.
I wish to mention a point which is unrelated to what I have said so far. A problem arises in relation to countries which are not members either of the Community or of EFTA. They are countries such as the United States and Canada, which are often involved in judgments given either by British courts or European courts. A very real problem exists, for example, when a French judgment is obtained against a United States company. How is the judgment to be enforced against assets in that country?
An article in the convention, such as Article 59 of the Brussels Convention, enables special agreements to be entered into between those countries with a view to mitigating difficulties and asperities. I believe that an agreement was entered into with Canada in 1986 under the Brussels Convention. There has not been one entered into in relation to the United States. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord can advise us as to whether it is intended to carry forward the same process of negotiation in relation to this convention as was carried out in relation to Brussels. I imagine the answer will be, yes. Secondly, can he say whether there is any greater prospect of obtaining agreement with the United States, which would be important in the interests of commercial relations.
With apologies for my somewhat lengthy exposition I am very glad to welcome the Bill.
12.27 p.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, and to my noble and learned friend Lord Wilberforce, for participating in the debate. I am particularly glad because of their depth of knowledge of this important subject; their general welcome to the Bill is therefore all the more valuable. I particularly thank my noble and learned friend Lord Wilberforce. I am sure that the noble

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Lord, Lord Mishcon, as well as myself, recognise him as being especially authoritative in this as in many other areas of our law.
I entirely accept the view that this process involves difficulties for those affected by it. But the process of harmonisation assists even the solicitor in Inverness or York when it comes to his client wishing to pursue a judgment in Sweden. At present he may experience considerable difficulty in finding out even how to begin. I believe one of the most valuable things we can do to minimise the difficulty of the practitioner is to secure a text that is as clear as possible. The negotiations have been principally directed to that end.
The price that one must pay is the price that is involved in securing an agreement. So far—if I might take one of my noble and learned friend's points—the signatories appear to have insisted on having a diversity of authentic texts. I entirely agree with my noble and learned friend that to have a single authentic text would be a considerable step forward.
I shall endeavour, more or less in order, to deal with the various questions that have been put to me. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, referred to ratification. I do not expect any difficulties in that respect. Certainly none has become apparent so far. We must wait to see how the position develops. Our intention is to ratify after Spain and Portugal have ratified their treaty of accession to Brussels which should be in about 12 or 18 months' time, so that the Brussels Convention comes first and we follow immediately or shortly after that. The present view is that we should be able to bring this Bill, if it becomes an Act, into force probably in the first half of 1992, but I hope that it will he not later than the end of 1992 if all goes well.
I now come to the reports referred to by my noble and learned friend. When the 1982 Act was introduced by my noble and learned friend the then Lord Chancellor, it was decided that if we were to have reasonable harmony on the construction of the Brussels Convention in this country with the other countries in the Community, it would be necessary that the materials that they would be likely to look at should be looked at here also. Therefore a provision was included on the lines referred to, enabling our courts to look at reports prepared in connection with the Brussels Convention and which had a status in relation to the preparation of that convention.
I repeated that explanation in almost identical terms when we dealt with the Contracts (Applicable Law) Fill. My noble and learned friend Lord Simon of Glaisdale pointed out to me —of course, many developments have taken place since 1982 and one must keep that in mind—that the form of the clause might be regarded as restrictive on what other materials the courts could consider. With his assistance, we modified the provision in the Bill in regard to the Rome Convention in order to accommodate that point. The phrase that we have used here is the phrase that we developed then. The intention of my noble and learned friend, with which I entirely agreed, was that we would not exclude anything that the court would otherwise wish to look
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at. All we wished to do was to emphasise that this material was available for the courts to look at and give such effect as is possible.
I entirely agree with the view that everything possible must be done to make administration as simple as possible. We have achieved a great deal in the provision to which the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, referred, in making sure that the judgments of the various courts under the Lugano Convention are circulated when we do not have, as in this case, a central court with jurisdiction to give authority to judgments which would, of themselves, be so regarded in all the parties to the convention.
My noble and learned friend Lord Wilberforce asked about the total number of cases that we have referred to Luxembourg under the Brussels Convention. I have been given a figure of 61. I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for giving me notice of that question because certainly I would not have had that figure in my head, and I doubt whether I would have had an accurate impression of it. I should have thought that there were more than 61, and I am glad that I was not put to the test on that point. I do not know how many of those cases related to Article 17 alone, but I share the view of my noble and learned friend that there has been a considerable number.
This is an important clause. I believe that it is extremely important that in the Lugano Convention we also have the possibility of invoking the jurisdiction of a court by agreement. As I have already said, that would be extremely helpful to the use of our commercial courts by people who are not themselves domiciled in this country.
As regards the negotiation of future conventions or the continuing process of harmonisation, I welcome the assistance of practitioners. We always seek to obtain the help of practitioners, if in no other way than by circulating the text for comment by those who have experience in these matters. We have been reasonably successful in making use of their views when they have been put forward. This gives me the opportunity to refer to the tremendous work that Sir Michael Kerr carried out in connection with the negotiation arrangements under the Brussels Convention; and who is more experienced than he in the practical aspects of these matters?
To turn to countries outside EFTA and the EC areas, as I said when I introduced the Bill, one of the possibilities opened by this convention is that others outside these areas may come in. Personally, I should very much like to see that. The process, with all the difficulties involved in it, would do a great deal for world trade if it could be extended further. It would be difficult to give any realistic assessment of present prospects, but your Lordships can be assured that we desire to press on as much as possible with the Commonwealth and, if there are prospects, also with the United States.
In regard to assisting the practitioners, one of the reasons why we included the convention in full in the schedule to the Bill is for that purpose. I hope that

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that, for the ordinary practitioner, is the main tool that he requires. I agree that refined questions may occur to people on the precise construction and application of the provisions, but at least the schedule goes some way in that respect.
As regards putting the whole new Act out in its amended form, by consolidation or otherwise, I certainly hope that that will follow as quickly as we can manage to arrange it.
I also take this opportunity of paying tribute to Mr. Lawrence Collins for his excellent work in connection with the 1982 Act. I bear in mind, especially since I now have been given more responsibility than hitherto in relation to the Statutory Publications Office, the possibility of a cheap and comprehensive work on the subject. Possibly these two criteria are almost mutually exclusive, but they are both desirable aims, and in so far as it is possible to attain them we shall keep the possibility in mind. I hope that a practitioner will be willing to assist in that regard because private enterprise has a way of doing these things perhaps more successfully than government. In any case, it is a matter to be kept in mind, and I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for raising it.
With the additional strength of the two speeches made since my opening remarks, I renew my Motion that your Lordships give this Bill a Second Reading with even more confidence than I began. I also reciprocate the good wishes for the season expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. I extend them not only to the noble Lord but to all noble Lords who have been kind enough to participate in this Sitting.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Caravans (Standard Community Charge and Rating) Bill
12.40 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
The Bill is a technical measure which will nevertheless be welcomed by the substantial number of holiday caravan owners who, as the law now stands are, contrary to our intention in 1988, liable to the standard community charge. During consideration of the Local Government Finance Bill 1988 we gave a commitment that holiday caravans and the pitches on which they stand would be in non-domestic rating. It subsequently emerged that an amendment that we made in your Lordships' House to the 1988 Bill did not have the desired effect and that as a result the owners of many holiday caravans were subject to the standard community charge.
This Bill therefore removes all standard charge liability from the owners of caravans which are not used as sole or main residences. It makes all caravan pitches and any caravans occupying them subject to the non-domestic rates provided that they are not in use as sole or main residences. As we announced on
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30th March, the provisions will have effect from 1st April 1990 and anyone who has paid the standard charge in respect of their caravan will be entitled to have it refunded.
The Bill includes separate provisions which have the same effect in Scotland as south of the Border. Two further provisions are proposed which are specific to Scotland. First, because some caravan owners paid the standard charge last year, provision is made for repayment of half the amount paid, this being broadly equivalent to the difference between the burden of rates and the standard charge. Secondly, a small change is needed to the existing provisions on the derating of caravans to permit my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to deal with the fact that the rateable values of caravans in Scotland are in general higher than in England and Wales.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Baroness Blatch.)
12.42 p.m.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, this is a strange little Bill which comes before the House in a very strange way. I do not think that the Government can deny that they were given adequate warning when the Local Government Finance Bill was going through this House and another place, where these provisions were debated very fully, that their measures for charging the standard community charge for caravans and many other marginal properties would not work. The Government were told that the provisions would not work but they insisted that they would. They put through amendments which do not work now. As I have said, in a very strange way the Government are proposing to put the matter right.
I make it clear that we are not opposed to the Bill and we shall not seek to defeat it. I think it will be agreed that it is curious that the recognition of something being wrong came as early as March this year and yet legislation could not be produced until the end of November. In addition, it had to be considered in another place between 10.15 p.m. and a quarter-past midnight, with the measure going through all stages at the same sitting. That is a very curious way to deal with legislation. It led to a debate which was somewhat confused. It was not confused because those who criticised the measures were confused but because the Government's answers were unsatisfactory.
I refer in particular to the comments made about the difference between chalets and holiday caravans. It was pointed out by a number of Members of another place, including my honourable friend Mr. Wilson in particular, that in many cases holiday chalets were worth far less than holiday caravans and that they were just as much depreciating assets. The Minister in another place called them chattels, yet they were still to be subject to the standard community charge. The answers given by the Minister to those who criticised this point were totally inadequate. They were based on

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a legalistic distinction between property and chattels which I do not think would stand for one moment in the light of reason.
Before the Minister finally moves for a Second Reading, I should be grateful if she could indicate whether the Government's thinking has advanced on this issue. On 3rd December when the matter went through another place there was no indication of any coherent thinking on the part of the Government. It is not simply the issue of caravans, because clearly the Government are attempting to put right one of the marginal injustices of the poll tax legislation. However, the measure fails to recognise entirely that the poll tax legislation is itself inherently unjust, not simply because of the complications of the standard community charge which has to be added to the personal community charge but because the theory of applying local government taxation to individuals on a single assessment basis with no concern for ability to pay is inherently unjust.
This Bill recognises only 1 per cent. of the injustice of the poll tax, and at a time when even Ministers to a greater or lesser degree appear to be recognising that it is unjust and seen to be so. It is because it is seen to be unjust that the present Secretary of State for the Environment is seeking a radical review. Since other Ministers have taken part in the debate on the injustice of the poll tax, I wonder whether the Minister in her reply will add her two pennyworth. It would he helpful to know whether what we are doing in considering the Bill is simply to assuage one of the detailed criticisms which Pave been made or whether this is the first step towards a more radical review of the poll tax operation and that we can expect further legislation this Session. The Minister will understand that she will get a great deal more sympathetic consideration of the Bill if she indicates that it is part of a general review and we can expect legislation in time to correct more of the injustice which is undoubtedly going to take place when the poll tax bills go out for 1991–2.
12.46 p.m.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I am not going to follow too far down that road. It will soon be Christmas. If discussions are taking place, as suggested by the Prime Minister, I must point out that we have a great many ideas a bout local income tax which will solve many of the problems. The Bill is going to go through your Lordships' House because it is necessary to redress the anomalies in the Local Government Finance Act 1988. It will go through without much interference.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, was quite right in saying that the Bill was whistled through all its stages in another place without much notice that that was to happen. As my honourable friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed indicated, there was very little time for Members of another place to table amendments or even to consider the need to do so. In the light of that, I wonder whether the Government have given any more thought to the matter and whether they intend to table amendments as the Bill passes through your Lordships' House.
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As the Minister indicated, before the 1988 Act the arrangements for caravan sites were that the site owner very often paid the rates due. He would then either include the cost in the fee payable by holiday owners or bill the permanent residents for their rates. It was only after the 1988 Act that this procedure was changed. An attempt was made to prevent holiday caravan owners being liable for the community charge. The Government have got themselves into a mess because they did not recognise that there were mixed sites. That was not for want of being told but because the Government did not accept the fact.
We now have this little Bill to try to put matters right. It was not realised until March of this year that something would have to be done and therefore a problem arose. Some local authorities had set their budgets and charges before March and in theory those arrangements did not include any revenue from holiday caravan owners in the estimated charges. I say "in theory" because I suspect that some of them, though not all, realised that there was a loophole and made a calculation.
The Government recognise that, because of its retrospective nature, the Bill will, as is said in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, reduce authorities' income from the standard community charge in England and Wales and in Scotland. District councils will lose income which their budgets had assumed. Although my honourable friend in another place obtained some reassurance, local authorities need further reassurance that, with the present rate-capping arrangements and all the restrictions on local authorities, the loss of income will be taken into account.
Site owners have been in a difficult position. It is possible that, in order to protect their position in relation to planning laws, some of them have fudged the issue as to whether they have fixed sites, holiday sites or mixed sites. That remains a problem. One caravan site owner sought to get around this problem by putting up a notice indicating that if holiday caravans are to be used on the site they should not be registered for the community charge. Accordingly, any registration for the community charge of a caravan on the holiday caravan park would be a breach of the agreement and the caravan would be disconnected and would have to leave the park.
My honourable friend Mr. Beith wrote to the Minister at the time, Mr. Chope, and was reassured that where a person considered that he might be subject to a charge he must comply with the community charge regulations; in other words, the regulations should take priority over the statement of the site owner. That may be the law but it is possible to use leverage on people in those situations who do not have a great deal of security. Although some reassurance was given to my honourable friend in another place, I wonder whether the Government have had any further thoughts in depth on this rather difficult subject. Can further reassurance be given, or will it be necessary to include a provision on the face of the Bill to cover that point?

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I do not wish to prolong our activities today and I do not wish to twist the noble Baroness's tail too hard. We support the Second Reading of the Bill.
12.53 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their welcome for the Bill, albeit that the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, predictably said, "I think I told you so". When we announced that we would legislate to correct the position and provide that any sums of standard charge already paid would be refunded, the news was warmly welcomed by the caravan industry and caravan owners in general. Caravanners in Scotland will also welcome the part repayment of any standard charge paid in the last financial year so that it is as though the caravans had remained subject to rating. They should also greet warmly the powers for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to extend the derating of caravans as part of the process of harmonising rateable values throughout Great Britain.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, asked whether the Bill was the first part of the process of reviewing the community charge. The Bill was in train before the present review was announced. But I extend to him a very real welcome if he would like to make a contribution to the debate on the review of the community charge. We look forward to his contribution. He has much to offer in that way.
I say in response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, that no government amendments to the Bill are planned. The noble Lord asked about the shortfall in revenue to local authorities. It has to be said that, at the time they set their community charges, most charging authorities were unaware that they had access to standard community charge revenue from holiday caravans. In such cases the question does not arise.
However, we are aware that one or two authorities took account of such widening of their community charge base, so that they were able to set the level of their community charges lower this year than it would otherwise have been. As a result of the Bill, there will be a shortfall in community charge income for these authorities in 1990–91 which will have to be made up by setting community charges higher than they would otherwise have been in 1991–92. All this really means is that next year charge payers will be paying slightly more for the benefit of having had an artificially lower charge this year. There may also be some slight additional cost to charging authorities by way of extra interest charges to cover this year's shortfall, but the amounts are unlikely to be significant.
In those circumstances the Government do not believe that it would be fair to pay grant to these few authorities because it would do little more than compensate them for losing their advantage over authorities that did not take account of standard charge revenue from holidays caravans.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I do not have all the detail but the figures in some of these cases are not insignificant. My honourable friend's local authority
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believes that it will have lost around £333,000 of income this year as the amount is not made up by the increase in the standard rating charge.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, if the noble Lord will accept the answer that I have given him today on that point, he can return to it at the Committee stage. There will be a Committee stage unless the order of commitment is discharged.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, was concerned about the definition of chalets and implied that we were not clear on the matter. A caravan is a chattel and is not itself subject to rating. It is the pitch on which a caravan stands that is rateable because it is non-domestic property. It is assessed, like other rateable property, on its notional annual rental value, and the presence of a caravan on a pitch will contribute to its value.
The owner of a chalet comprising a self-contained unit of living accommodation may be liable for the standard charge if it is a building used as a second home; for non-domestic rates if it is available for letting for more than 140 days in a year for short periods to people whose sole or main residence was elsewhere; or for the personal charge if it is his sole or main residence. The owners of certain chalets, like some beach huts, that are not buildings consisting of units of self-contained living accommodation and that are not let for short periods will be liable for neither the standard charge nor rates. The particular liability will be decided by the facts of the case and any dispute over the treatment of specific properties may be resolved in valuation and community charge tribunals if need be.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am grateful for that response but it does not take us much further. A purely legalistic distinction is still being made between what is called a chattel and something serving the same purpose which does not happen to have wheels. That is the problem. Behind that lies the far more important problem, which is that the same charge—the personal or the standard community charge—is being levied on a person living in a chalet worth a few thousand pounds as on a Member of your Lordships' House more fortunate than me and living in a house worth £500,000. That is the fundamental absurdity. All this does is show the tip of the iceberg of absurdity in this legislation.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the noble Lord makes the case for me. Each case has to be considered on its merits. The generic term "chalet" can cover a wide variety of accommodation, from structures which are little more than wooden huts at one extreme to very substantial houses at the other. Many such chalets are indistinguishable from other second homes and it is reasonable that the standard charge should apply to them. At the bottom of the range, chalets which are simply huts without basic facilities may well not be living accommodation within the meaning of the 1988 Act. In that case, the standard charge would not apply.

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I have covered the points that were raised during the debate. I now wish to commend the Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

British Railways (No. 3) Bill [H.L.]
1 p.m.
Lord Mountevans: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. My interest is already declared and it is a pleasure for me to be able to move this Motion. It is, however, a pleasure tinged with sc me sadness because I have taken over this Bill from my late friend Lord Marshall of Leeds. He was, as some of your Lordships will know, deeply involved in many rail and light rail transport Bills, and I for one shall miss him greatly, within the Chamber and outside it.
The opening of the Channel Tunnel in 1993 and the completion of the single European market will present a challenge to British Rail as it seeks to meet the inevitable surge in demand. To meet that challenge, considerable investment is being committed to ensure that Britain has an efficient, economical and advanced rail system for the future.
The Bill before your Lordships represents an important stage in the development of the investment programme, with works designed to ensure that British Rail can carry the predicted volume of passenger and freight traffic during the period between the opening of the tunnel and the completion of an eventual high speed rail link.
In brief, the Bill seeks to provide for links to the proposed Ashford international station, for three new freight loops in Kent, for a railway chord link in North London and for improvements to Bickley railway junction, which is in south-east London. Works Nos. 1A and 1B in the Bill will provide railway access to the proposed international passenger station at Ashford. This station will link domestic services with international trains to Paris and Brussels and, when joined to the proposed high speed rail link, will become a focus both for international and Network SouthEast services.
Powers are also sought for the construction of freight loops some 750 to 800 yards long at Headcorn, Borough Green and Otford. These loops will allow slower freight trains to be stood aside while the faster Network SouthEast and international passenger services are given the opportunity to overtake on the existing main lines. The Bill also allows for the remodelling of the very important Bickley junction, and this will provide additional capacity for international trains without incurring delay or interference to Network SouthEast services.
Finally, there is authorisation in the Bill for a link known as the West Hampstead chord in north London. This short line, which is 700 yards long, will allow for the connection to be made between the Midland main line and the north London line. The Midland main line is the line out of St. Pancras and the
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north London line is a form of "north circular road" for railways. It will also allow trains from the proposed King's Cross low level station to access the west coast main lines, via Willesden. Thus through-services from the West Midlands and the North-West can be routed to or via King's Cross, with its unparalleled interchange facilities with other InterCity routes, with ThamesLink, the London Underground and of course with the international services.
I am aware that there is some concern over the possible environmental impact of increased freight services over existing lines and also over the impact, transient though it may be until the opening of the high speed link, of the increased number of passenger services. Your Lordships' committee heard a great deal of evidence on noise levels and considered the issue of compensation where service intensification has occurred. I find the committee's report to be a model of its kind. Its opinion is that the problem of noise is a national one requiring national solutions. The recently appointed Mitchell Committee, while not strictly an appropriate forum for consideration of this particular issue, may provide us with some clues as to the way ahead. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Elibank will comment in greater depth upon the committee's views, and my noble and gallant friend Lord De L'Isle will be putting the Kentish case.
Quieter welded track, new train and wagon design and electric rather than diesel locomotives will make a major contribution to noise reduction, especially for residents living alongside the railway. Indeed many of the people who are aware of the current freight traffic through Kent will know that it is mainly heavy stone traffic, hauled by ageing diesel locomotives. The new style of international freight train will be a different and a quieter breed, as will be the new passenger trains. British Rail proposes to run up to 27 freight trains a day each way, split over two designated freight routes from London to Ashford. These trains could take some 1,500 lorry loads off the crowded roads of Kent, which in itself could make a major contribution towards improving the local environment.
I feel that this Bill is an essential component of British Rail's attempt to maximise the potential benefits of the single European market and the opening of the Channel Tunnel. Those benefits will be felt not only in Kent but also throughout the rest of Britain. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Mountevans.)
1.5 p.m.
Viscount De L'Isle: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees and to the Chief Whip for making it possible for me to speak this morning on this Bill by deferring the Business for a week. I am also obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans. It is a particular pleasure to follow him, because I remember the introduction into this House 45 years ago of his famous and gallant grandfather. I do recognise one change: we both sit on the same side of the House. Generations change.

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I begin by declaring an interest. My family owns agricultural land on the south side of the Tonbridge/Redhill line near the village of Leigh. However, I do not fear for the lack of sleep which sheep and cattle may suffer as they graze this land in the Medway Valley, but I do fear for the inhabitants of Leigh, my neighbours, whose sleep will be increasingly disturbed by the more intense night-time goods traffic along this section of the railway line, which will soon be electrified to take it. My sympathy for the people of Leigh extends to the people who will also suffer from a similar sudden intensification of night-time goods traffic in other parts of the country.
I have always been a believer in the utility of the Channel Tunnel for the increase of national prosperity which this enterprise will bring by improving communications to continental Europe. However, I feel I owe it to the County of Kent, where for the past 45 years I have lived, as have my predecessors, to emphasise the burden of noise and vibration which must result from the implementation of the newly-devised international rail link scheme, to the detriment of the inhabitants of some 3,600 houses in the county who urgently need protection.
Your Lordships' committee on this private Bill promoted by British Rail sat for 11 days and patiently listened to a great deal of technical evidence, particularly about noise. I, for one, cannot quarrel with their conclusions, reached within the ambit of their authority. Their report states that they:
"reject any suggestion that the works before them will cause this nuisance"—
that is, increased noise and vibration. The actual works, including freight loops, are to be welcomed as allowing the system to be used much more efficiently. The committee go on to say:
"They cannot therefore accept the proposals of Kent, Bromley and others regarding noise".
They state bluntly that:
"to propose compensation would therefore be to establish a principle of disturbance caused by intensification".
Here again I accept that your Lordships' committee is not in a position to insist on such a major change of established principle of railway operation. However, all is not lost. The persistence of the petitioners has earned them the possibility of remedial action. In paragraph 26 of its report the committee says:
" — recommend that the Government give urgent consideration to the question of compensation for those directly affected by major and relatively sudden intensification of the use of existing railway lines. This is a national problem requiring national solutions".
I must take it that "compensation" would include the cost of remedial works. Thus, having listened to the petitioners' case, clearly the committee has been impressed by the force of their argument, which is that the really major intensification of railway traffic now predicted could not possibly have been foreseen by local residents, which is the case maintained by British Rail. It must be inequitable that, whereas British Rail accepts the need for future noise protection for those adversely affected by noise from the projected new high speed rail link, in the meantime it is unable or
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unwilling to afford similar protection to those living beside the existing rail network. Without protection those people will be the victims of an unforeseeable revolutionary change in the working of Kent's railway system. That is the result of an extraordinary feat of Anglo-French engineering—the Channel Tunnel—by which Britain will cease to be an island—surely an eye-opening alteration.
The tremendous increase in the number of day-time passenger trains will, as a consequence, after 1993 push goods traffic into night-time operations and result in a wholly unacceptable increase in the amount of disturbance. Surely, the old limiting rule which has for long prevailed in the case of the intensification of railway traffic along existing lines must yield to those new circumstances and to common sense so as to meet the relatively modest demands for less than £4 million to be spent to protect those 3,600 houses and to minimise the night-time interruption of sleep.
For what it is worth, I add my voice to those who urge upon Her Majesty's Government that they should use the recently appointed Mitchell Committee as the proper forum to investigate that problem and, I hope, make suggestions to cure it. If so moved, the Government would relieve the anxieties of a great many people in Kent and elsewhere and also deserve their gratitude.
1.12 p.m.
Lord Elibank: My Lords, I start by associating myself with the remarks of my noble friend Lord Mountevans on the untimely death of Lord Marshall of Leeds. He was a notable public servant whose early death has deprived the House of some excellent contributions. We shall all miss him. I should also like to thank my noble friend for the kind remarks he addressed to our committee and its deliberations, which I am sure we all appreciate and for which we are all grateful.
I wish to address a couple of points mentioned in our report and add a measure of emphasis to what we said. The first relates to the relatively minor impact that the Bill will have upon the total works upon which British Rail has embarked in connection with the Channel Tunnel link. Your Lordships will be aware that at about the time the committee was sitting there was a fair prospect that a permanent link would be established. That has been delayed for the foreseeable future and the works that British Rail is at present undertaking are acquiring a measure of permanence.
Having said that, only a small part of the works, which are extensive, are covered by the Bill. Should your Lordships be minded to reject the Bill, British Rail would be obliged to establish the link. The only effect of that would be that the link would be less efficient and therefore probably noisier. The Bill embodies a small part only of a large series of works to which British Rail is committed.
The second point has been touched upon by my noble and gallant friend Lord De L'Isle. It relates to the intensification of use. The law and practice on that subject is fairly clear and was most recently set out in

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the Land Compensation Act 1973. The law does not permit compensation to be paid where there is intensification of use of an existing line. That is no doubt on the basis that a reasonable purchaser of a house by a railway line must be presumed to have given his consent, or acquiesced, to the possibility that the volume of traffic on that stretch of line will not remain constant for ever: it may increase; it may decrease. The purchaser must abide by any changes that take place.
However the re-modelled Channel link is in an altogether different category from the changes in railway use with which your Lordships are familiar. The Channel Tunnel should open in about the middle of 1993. There will be an enormous increase in the volume of traffic. The committee heard various arguments about how great that increase might be. That is a subject for argument and disagreement, but that it will be substantial, no one will deny.
Could the reasonable purchaser with his house near to the railway line have anticipated at the time of his purchase that that substantial increase in traffic, and consequent increase in noise, would take place? I think not. If I am right in that, there is a strong prima facie case for some measure of compensation. As my noble and gallant friend Lord De L'Isle said, the Mitchell Committee has been established by the Government to study new railway lines and the compensation of residents living near them. I am not sure whether that is the appropriate forum for the consideration of existing lines but, whether it is or not, I earnestly commend to Her Majesty's Government the thought that a new and fairly dramatic nuisance is to be thrust upon innocent purchasers, who have acted sensibly, as they thought, in the purchase of their houses. In those circumstances, it is right that some measure of compensation should be offered to them by the Government.
1.17 p.m.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, at the outset perhaps I may join the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, and other noble Lords and express my profound sorrow at the death of Lord Marshall of Leeds. Although we had different political philosophies we were able to develop a friendly relationship when discussing local government matters. He had a keen interest in matters affecting rail transport. I share the deep regret that has been expressed. He will be sadly missed.
We are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, for taking over the piloting of the Bill and for explaining its provisions and some of the outstanding points. It may be recalled that on Second Reading we were told that 17 petitions against the Bill had been tabled, including one from Kent County Council and five district and borough councils. We understand from the committee's report that five of the petitions were not pursued. At Second Reading on 26th March, I expressed deep satisfaction at the attitude adopted by Kent County Council. I believe that I said that it was one of the most helpful petitions I had seen for a long time. I said that the county council took a national view. It was looking at the
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needs of 1993 when the Channel Tunnel opens, being mindful of the fact that the fast rail link would not come into use until 1998—five years later.
The county council argued, as did some of the other petitioners, that the provision of noise barriers and the insulation of dwellings along the upgraded existing lines would cost only £3 million. I referred to that in my Second Reading speech. I have looked again at Second Reading in the Official Report and I cannot recall that the Minister who replied made any reference to the cost. Perhaps the noble Lord will state whether that is the proven cost required or whether the figure is inaccurate.
I urged that the Second Reading should be given to enable the Select Committee to consider the various points raised. I wish today to justify my support for the Bill being given a Third Reading. I want to see exactly how the committee arrived at its various decisions so that I may give that support.
In paragraph 7 in evidence the promoters on behalf of British Rail confirmed that they would do everything in their power to minimise the noise and disturbance caused by the new services. They gave an assurance that the trains would have electric traction and that they would run on continuous welded track. As has already been mentioned by other noble Lords, the report refers to the technical arguments that were put on noise levels. I shall not go into them, but if the technical evidence about noise levels is proved to be incorrect, presumably the individuals affected will come under the reference to compensation. That is dealt with in paragraphs 12 to 18 of the report. As has been rightly mentioned, there is the power under the 1973 Land Compensation Act to confer a duty on responsible authorities to insulate buildings against noise or to make grants to meet the cost.
It has also been emphasised, and the report makes this clear, that regulations so far issued by the Secretary of State apply only to new or altered roads. For that reason, the Government set up the Mitchell Committee, a departmental committee, to look at the matter. The important words in the report were:
"to consider arriving at parity of treatment between those who live near new railways and those who live near new roads".
Noble Lords have mentioned that the committee welcomed the promoters' undertaking that, should the Mitchell Committee decide that the regulations for noise insulation apply to new railways and alterations to railways, BR would deem them to be applicable to works under the Bill. The committee said that such a decision would operate retrospectively. I wish the Minister to indicate in his reply that if the Mitchell Committee so reported, the Government will readily accept that BR should apply the decision retrospectively to matters contained in the Bill.
Noise is referred to in paragraph 24. The committee accepted that there would be a substantial increase in noise levels when the Channel Tunnel opened. However, it rejected the suggestion that the works under the Bill would cause a nuisance. Having read the report, I must accept that we are concerned with the terms of the Bill and the works under the Bill and we

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cannot go beyond that. The noble Lord, Lord Elibank, stressed that the committee took the view that without the works in the Bill BR would be compelled to find other means of operating services to the tunnel, maybe at the cost of operational efficiency.
At Second Reading I said that in my view the works would be beneficial to all concerned. What we must avoid now is any delay. We know that the fast rail link, if it comes into being, will not operate until five years after the Channel Tunnel opens. Therefore any delay will cause a severe problem. We already await a decision by BR on its final preferred route.
Another important point was raised in paragraph 14 which has already been referred to. Compensation for depreciation in value of land as a result of public works does not include reference to the intensification of any existing use. Studying the report, we find that petitioners argued that the works which are the subject of the Bill created a new railway. I must accept the contrary view put forward by the promoters that the Bill provides for intensification of the existing use and therefore the provisions of the 1973 Act do not apply.
We have heard references today to the Mitchell Committee and I hope that the Government will accept that that committee should examine the matter to decide whether the promoters' view that the works would be an intensification of the existing use could be covered by future legislation. I agree that it would be wrong, as the committee said, to introduce such a national change on the principle of compensation in this Bill.
We find in paragraph 26 that the committee asked that the Government should give urgent consideration to compensation for those affected by the intensification of the use of existing railway lines. I hope that the Government will give that serious consideration. We suggest that the Mitchell Committee is the appropriate body to deal with it, and if it so recommends I hope that the Government will be prepared to see that the necessary legislation is brought forward at the earliest possible date.
The Ashford international station is mentioned in the report. In paragraphs 19 and 20 the county council and Ashford Borough Council, rightly in my view, argue that, as the authorities would be required to build access roads, British Rail should give an undertaking that the station will be built. The promoters gave an assurance in words acceptable to Ashford Borough Council, which withdrew its petition, but the words were not acceptable to Kent County Council. In paragraph 31 the committee put the view that it is wholly satisfied with the undertaking given.
Since the committee published its report, there was a debate in the other place on 10th December on a carry-over Motion concerning the King's Cross Railways Bill. On that occasion, the Minister for Public Transport, Mr. Roger Freeman, gave an undertaking which is set out at col. 744 of the Official Report that the Government remain committed to an international passenger station at Ashford. I have the
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terms of the undertaking given. I shall avoid reading it but I am certain that the House will take it from me that the assurance given by the Minister on that occasion was very definite.
There is one other matter to which I wish to refer. In paragraph 28 the Select Committee recommends that the Secretary of State should give consideration to all the detrimental effects arising from the Channel Tunnel rail services over and above what a reasonable house buyer could have foreseen. It adds that it would be appropriate for any such compensation to be publicly funded. It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm the reports of increased financial assistance to be given to Network SouthEast to assist in rail improvements. Will it be available also to assist any changes that may take place in the fast rail link and the works referred to in the Bill?
I believe that the Select Committee's recommendations go a long way to meet the points raised in the petitions. I hope that the Minister will be able to give an undertaking to urge on the Secretary of State that the recommendations in paragraphs 25, 26 and 27 to which I have referred will be accepted. I hope that he will also find it possible to give the assurance that the important recommendation in paragraph 28 regarding compensation for house buyers will be given early and serious consideration. If these assurances can be given today it will be helpful. If not, will the Minister give an assurance that these matters will be considered with a view to statements being made before the Bill passes through the other place?
1.30 p.m.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, it may be helpful to your Lordships if I intervene briefly to restate the Government's view on the Bill. Before doing so, perhaps I may first add my voice to the tributes which other noble Lords have paid to Lord Marshall of Leeds for his sponsorship of this Bill at an earlier stage. It is sad that he was unable to see it safely through this House, but I am sure he would be pleased to know that it is in the good hands of my noble friend Lord Mountevans.
The Government have considered the content of the Bill and have no objection in principle to the powers being sought by the Railways Board. The Department of Transport has no points outstanding on it. The Bill has been subject to close and careful scrutiny by your Lordships' Select Committee which allowed the Bill to proceed.
My noble and gallant friend Lord De L'isle has drawn attention to the Select Committee's recommendation regarding noise. Although I must emphasise that this is not a government Bill, that element of the Select Committee's report was addressed to the Government and I recognise that it is for the Government, and not for my noble friend Lord Mountevans, who is sponsoring this Bill on behalf of its promoters, to respond to my noble and gallant friend on this point.
Since 1973 there has been a statutory requirement, under regulations made under the Land Compensation Act 1973, for builders of new roads to

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insulate houses against traffic noise from those roads. There has never been any equivalent statutory provision regarding railways, although the Act allowed for comparable regulations to be made in respect of railways, as new railways were not then being built. But things are now changing; and the Mitchell Committee, to which the Select Committee referred in its report, and which other noble Lords have mentioned, is a committee of experts, under the chairmanship of Dr. Mitchell of the Transport and Road Research Laboratory, which the Government set up earlier this year. Its task was to recommend to the Government a national noise insulation standard or standards for the operation of new railway lines which equitably relates to the standard set by regulations for new highways. I emphasise that the committee was specifically concerned with new railways, and that it is carrying out an expert technical task of translating into what is appropriate for railways the noise insulation standard used in respect of new road construction.
In the Government's view, it was not appropriate to ask the Mitchell Committee, which had a specific technical task to do, to consider whether protection against noise should be provided for houses close to the route of an existing railway line on which there is a sudden and sharp increase in the number of trains. That is a matter of policy for the Government to consider. My right honourable friend the previous Secretary of State undertook in another place in the summer—though he was careful to stress that he could make no promises—that he would consider that matter very carefully in relation to the railway lines which will see a big increase in traffic when the Channel Tunnel opens.
The Government have indeed been considering this matter, but have not yet reached their conclusions. As has been said, the issue is a difficult one. On the one hand, everyone must have sympathy with people who, having chosen to live close to a railway line which carries a certain level of traffic, are faced with the prospect of that traffic suddenly doubling or more. It may seem worse if much of the increase occurs at night. On the other hand, a number of questions have to be t sought about with some care. Would it be right to provide for noise insulation when there is a sharp increase in the use of a railway line, when there is no equivalent provision in respect of roads? Should there also be such a provision in respect of roads? Are we to consider just those railway lines which will be affected by trains using the Channel Tunnel—and that is what Kent County Council have directed their proposals to —or should we consider any existing railway line anywhere in the country that has a sudden surge in traffic? What should be the criteria? How would we distinguish between a sudden increase in traffic, such as will be occasioned by the opening of the Channel Tunnel, and the gradual build up of traffic on a line as a result of normal commercial developments? Finally, who should pay?
The Select Committee observed that it might be more appropriate for any compensation thought desirable to be funded from the public purse rather
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than by British Rail. But that too has implications: to put it bluntly, it cuts across the normal guideline that "the polluter pays". As regards the cost of house insulation, to which the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, referred in connection with Kent County Council's figures, it is not for the Government to say whether Kent's cost estimate is correct. However, that estimate related only to the stretches of line in Kent and, of course, other areas would be affected.
It is precisely because the Government have taken seriously the recommendations of the Select Committee that they have not yet made up their mind on this complicated and conclusive issue. I am sorry that there is nothing more conclusive that I can say today to my noble and gallant friend and to the House. We are under no illusion about the strength of feeling in the County of Kent about this matter. But, as the Select Committee pointed out, this is something that has to be considered in a wider context than that of Kent alone.
The Government hope to reach a conclusion within the next month or two. I would remind noble Lords that this is the first House for this Bill. There will be further opportunity for this matter to be considered in another place. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State or my honourable friend the Minister for Public Transport will have that in mind and will waste no time in announcing their conclusion as soon as they are able to do so. In the meantime, I hope that the House will allow the Bill to proceed, and will give it a Third Reading.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I have something to say before the noble Lord sits down. It had not been my intention to intervene in this debate today but I must do so for two reasons. First, I should like to associate my name with those noble Lords who have paid tribute to Lord Marshall of Leeds. He was also a very good friend of mine. Secondly, I should like to comment on the specific point made by the Minister about the polluter pays principle, which means that the Government will not have to pay. In this case, the polluter is the nation as a whole in so far as the Channel Tunnel is a national asset, even if it is a private development. The fact that this piece of track belongs to British Rail seems to me to be a bit of a quibble. I hope that the Minister will be able to find a means of looking again at the matter.
Lord Mountevans: My Lords, we have had a very good debate. I greatly appreciate the widespread support which all speakers have given to the works proposed in the Bill before us and their acknowledgment of the need for them. I believe that we all share the concerns posed by the problems of intensification of traffic on an existing route.
I should first like to thank my noble and gallant friend Lord De L'Isle for his complimentary remarks about my grandfather. I do not know whether he is in a position to read the report, but if he is I am sure that he will be much pleased with it, as indeed I am. My noble and gallant friend ably expressed the concerns of the people of Kent. I can add very little to what my noble friend the Minister has just said on the matter. However, I can say that I have a degree of sympathy

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with the people of Kent. For 10 years I have lived in a flat which I bought in the full knowledge that it was adjacent to the two running tunnels of the Bakerloo Line under Portland Place. The volume of traffic in that area has increased over the past nine to 10 years by 20 per cent. However, I have become accustomed to the situation. In fact, the first or second Boeing 747 going into Heathrow, because my flat is under the flight path to Heathrow, or the occasional emergency vehicle passing by because my flat is situated between two fire stations, is more of an intrusion. I appreciate the problems in Kent and have the utmost sympathy with those who will be affected by the noise. I can only hope that they, like me, will find that in time one becomes accustomed to such things.
My noble friend Lord Elibank succinctly amplified the committee's views. He emphasised the small part which these works play in relation to the whole development. He argued that the intensification of use would have a new and dramatic impact upon local residents. Again I sympathise with that view. However, I am sure that Her Majesty's Government will pursue the policies and objectives just outlined by my noble friend. We must hope that some solution will be found to solve the problem with which we are concerned.
The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, mentioned Kent's contention that ameliorative action by means of noise barriers could be carried out for a figure of £3 million. It is my impression that this figure—although it was available to the noble Lord and myself in time for Second Reading—was not actually substantiated in committee. It proved difficult to confirm. Like other speakers, the noble Lord mentioned the Mitchell Committee. Again, I am indebted to my noble friend on the Front Bench for putting it in context, and also for advising us of the routes that the Government were pursuing in addressing the problem which we all recognise.
The noble Lord also mentioned Ashford International. I can only add that I know—as I think he does since he was present at the same meeting—that discussions with the developers are going on in the context of Ashford International. He quoted Section 20, but Section 20 also reminds us that the eventual decision will be subject to the Secretary of State's consent.
I have already expressed my appreciation to the Minister, who dealt with the way ahead much better than I could have done. I am also grateful to other noble Lords who have spoken. I conclude by asking the House to give this Bill a Third Reading.
On Question, Bill read a third time.
Lord Mountevans: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass. - (Lord Mountevans.)
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

Leeds and Brixton Prisons: Reports
1.40 p.m.
Lord Harris of Greenwich Lord Harris of Greenwich rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what is their response to the reports by the Chief Inspector of Prisons on HM Prisons Leeds and Brixton.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we are debating this issue on the day of the publication of yet another searching report by the Chief Inspector of Prisons, this time on suicides in prisons. I hope that we shall have an early opportunity of debating the issue.
This debate is on a narrower question, although today's report has the clearest and most direct implications for what we are about to discuss. Today's debate, in reality, is a tale of two prisons. The first is Brixton. It was formerly the Surrey House of Correction. It was opened when Lord Liverpool was Prime Minister, in 1821. Thirty years later it was decided to demolish it, but after spells as a women's prison and subsequently as a military prison, it has survived until the present day. Leeds, on the other hand, is a mere 143 years old. It was opened when Lord John Russell was Prime Minister.
The conditions in both prisons are degrading. Judge Tumim's criticisms are harsh but I believe fully justified. At both he draws attention to a great deal of admirable work being performed by both governors and staff. One example is the work of the education department. On occasions such as this it is right to praise the efforts of many devoted members of staff, who operate in such deplorable conditions.
However, consider for a moment the character of Judge Tumim's indictment. He says that at Armley there has been a concentration on packing as many prisoners as possible into the prison with too little concern for the consequences. As a result, prisoners have been denied sufficient personal attention and adequate physical activity. At the time of the inspection there were 1,171 prisoners when there should have been a maximum of 642. The reception building at Armley was described as "appalling". The physical education resources were some of the worst that the inspectorate had ever seen. The workshops were grossly under-used. No priority had been given to the introduction of integral sanitation in the redevelopment plans, and there were no showers on the landings.
At Brixton Judge Tumim found the establishment "corrupting and depressing". He added:
"The grim reality for many hundreds awaiting trial was an austere, miserable and wholly negative experience. There was hardly any work or education. Visiting and reception facilities were hopelessly inadequate. And the only gymnasium was outside the secure area and was used exclusively by the staff".
That is a shocking story.
Now let us turn to some of the specific issues that have been raised in the report. First, as the noble Earl will recall, I drew his attention in a previous debate to the disturbing account in Judge Tumim's report on the state of affairs at Wandsworth Prison concerning what appeared to be the racist attitudes of some members of the staff. We welcome the steps that were taken

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subsequently to deal with the problem. However, I note that in his report on Leeds, though welcoming what he describes as useful initiatives by the prison's race relations committee, Judge Tumim reports that inmate; had said not only that prejudice existed, but that they could not make their feelings known nor have suitable action taken.
In the case of Brixton, the criticism was far more explicit. In paragraph 4.14 it is said that there had been complaints of racist attitudes by some members of the staff and that not all of those had come from inmates. There were also what were described as "many complaints" that some officers who drank at lunchtime were affected as a consequence during the afternoon. I must add that it is not the first time that I have heard such a suggestion made when visiting some of our prisons. I should be grateful if the noble Earl, whom I warned that I would be raising the issue, will tell us what action the department intends to take to deal with those criticisms.
I also find it disturbing that following the criticisms in the Wandsworth report staff at Leeds are said to wear insignia of various kinds attached to their uniforms and that a number are wearing slashed peaks to their uniform caps. The noble Earl will recall that the matter was debated in this house and that that specific issue was put to him. Indeed, at col. 1299 of Hansard for 14th November 1989 he said:
"Disciplinary action is probably not the best way of dealing with this kind of problem, which is more a matter of staff attitudes".
I wonder what other disciplined service—and the prison service is a disciplined service—would tolerate a situation in which people wore insignia on their uniforms. I wonder what the noble Earl would have said when he was an orderly officer inspecting one of his guards if he had found Coldstream Guards wearing insignia on their uniforms. I suspect that he might have expressed mild surprise—indeed he might have expressed more than mild surprise. I should like to ask him once again what is going to be done about that. The fact that those insignia are being worn, as he is well aware, has significance of a very special character, to which the chief inspector has drawn attention. I hope that on this occasion we shall have a full explanation of what the Home Office proposes to do about that particular problem.
I turn now to another issue that I intend to raise this afternoon—that of the large number of cases of self harm reported both at Leeds and Brixton, culminating in a number of deaths, and also the general question of the large numbers of mentally ill people being held in our prisons and particularly at Brixton. In his response to the Brixton report, the present Home Secretary said:
"It is abundantly clear that too many mentally disturbed people are sent to prison".
I agree with him. As the noble Earl will recall, that has been a constant theme of our debates for many years.
It is worth pausing for a moment to consider the conditions in which mentally disturbed inmates are being held at Brixton prison. In F wing, the psychiatric wing, Judge Tumim reports that the most
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disturbed were housed in single cells which were stripped of all furniture except a mattress. Nearby, for the less disturbed, were rooms with cardboard furniture. Cells were dirty and so were the foam rubber mattresses. There was a smell of urine and some cells had faecal staining in them. Incoming prisoners were assessed in a dirty reception area and the clinical load on medical officers was too great for more than a cursory examination.
It is disgraceful that we are prepared to tolerate such conditions for these sad, disturbed men who should not be in prison in the first place. Yet is there the slightest prospect of getting them out of prison? In his Statement on Brixton, the Home Secretary said that the Government wanted them diverted into the care of the National Health Service or the social services departments of local authorities. So far as concerns the health service, the Home Office has been attempting to persuade the Department of Health to accept its responsibilities for at least 15 years to my direct knowledge. The situation appears now to be worse than ever. As for the social services departments of local authorities, I am afraid that the Home Secretary's well-intentioned observations will be regarded as little more than a joke by those who have witnessed the failure of so many of them to cope with the flood of people now pouring out of our mental hospitals.
"Care in the community", as it is described, simply does not exist in many areas because of an acute shortage of resources. Only a few weeks ago the House of Commons Social Services Committee criticised the Department of Health for not even producing detailed calculations of the cost of implementing its plans. It added that there was still no guarantee that money said to be available would in reality be spent on the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped. I am afraid that without a radical change in government policy the prospects for getting the mentally ill out of our prisons are exceptionally poor.
I turn now to the final issue that I want to raise this afternoon, which is the related problem of suicide and self-harm. That has been dealt with in the report by Judge Tumim published today. The number of such incidents at both prisons has been deeply disturbing. In 1989 there were eight suicides at Brixton alone. There the clinical load on doctors is too great. Judge Tumim describes the number of hospital officers in F wing as being grossly insufficient.
In the past I have indicated that I do not consider that the prison service as a whole is under-manned. There has been a striking improvement in staff/inmate ratios in the past 30 years, and in my judgment there is still overmanning in some departments of Prison Department establishments. For instance, Judge Tumim is critical at both Brixton and Leeds of the unnecessarily high level of censorship of inmates' mail. It was a criticism that he also put forward in his report on Wandsworth prison. How can it be right to tolerate such severe under-staffing with hospital officers at Brixton, a major prison hospital with an appalling level of suicides and attempted suicides? How can it be right in this situation to permit so many

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hospital officers—in Judge Tumim's words—"to spend their time on wholly administrative and clerical tasks"? That seems to me to be quite absurd.
In conclusion, as the House prepares to adjourn to celebrate the festive season, it is perhaps right to remember Judge Tumim's observations on how a number of our young fellow-citizens, all of them unconvicted, have been treated at Leeds Prison:
"The bulk of the acts [of self-harm were] attributed simply to the effect on unconvicted inmates, many young, immature and unstable, of being locked up in a cell with one or two others, a jug of water, a bed, a chair, a small table and a bucket, for all but a small part of the day … The cell was constricted: two out of the three inmates had to sit on a bed. Their access to the library to get books was limited. They were worried inevitably as to what would happen at their trial. Day and night would start to merge. They would lose their balance and, say other inmates, it was hardly surprising if they cut or tried to hang themselves either out of misery or to attract attention."
That is life for young remand prisoners in a British prison in 1990. I believe it is entirely unacceptable that we should tolerate such conditions any longer.
1.56 p.m.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, yesterday I was warned by my much revered Chief Whip that the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, who speaks so effectively on these matters from the Front Bench, might not be able to get here for some time. I was asked to prepare a very long speech—a speech of almost indefinite length—and I did so. It will come as a slight relief to many noble Lords, and even the staff of the House, to hear that the noble Baroness has arrived and therefore my speech will be reduced by 90 per cent. If it is a little incoherent as a result, perhaps allowances will be made. I am very happy to follow up the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Harris. I do so not for the first time but perhaps more faithfully since he ceased to be a Minister and is now a brilliant critic of the Government. I follow him faithfully enough therefore.
The reports of Judge Tumim are extraordinarily damaging to the Government. In an interview today, Judge Tumim says that he does blame Ministers, but he would say that, would he not? He is a civil servant. He could hardly continue in his role if he started to blame Ministers. He therefore blames that rather indefinite entity, the public. We can come back to that point at some other time perhaps.
The fact is that this Government have been in power for some 10 years and the situation in our prisons is very bad. I shall not speak for the two hours for which I have made preparation. I shall simply say that yesterday I took part in the debate on the homeless. There are similarities between the homeless and this present topic. On the whole, the great British public, so far as we can speak for them, ignore such horrible goings on. We do so until something frightful brings them to our attention. Occasionally the sight of people sleeping in cardboard boxes shocks the conscience of even the most hardboiled. In the case of prisons we have had unprecedented riots this year. Now come the reports of suicide. At last we, the public, are facing the situation.
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As I said yesterday, I wish everything good to the new Minister for Housing, Sir George Young, and to the new Home Secretary. That is not to disparage his predecessor, who I venture to think has made a surprisingly good start here. But that is another matter and altogether different. I do not disparage him. The right honourable gentleman Mr. Baker, the Home Secretary, has said today that things will be very much better. That is what the Government said about the homeless. We shall believe it when we see it. Perhaps matters will improve; perhaps they will not. We are told with regard to the homeless that no new money is available. The statements about the homeless do not represent more money. We shall believe that something will be done about the prisons when the Government say that they will provide suitably large sums of money—and they must be large—to put the situation right.
I do not blame the Government for not stating that before Christmas. They are waiting for the report of Lord Justice Woolf. However, I am delighted to think that Judge Tumim will be associated with the report. Clearly it will be a report with radical proposals. We are therefore bound to ask whether the Government are ready to put up money to bring about those large changes. Money is not everything, but anyone who has read Judge Tumim's report will realise that such proposals cannot be undertaken without money.
I shall deal with one other topic about which perhaps I am beginning to speak too often in the House. I believe that it was Hitler who said that no one believes you until you have said the same thing nine times. I do not wish to follow him in all respects, but perhaps he had something there. It may have been Goebbels who said it; it was one or the other. I return to the subject of mentally disturbed offenders.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, in this fascinating connection, by repeating the same subject nine times, is the noble Earl likening himself to Hitler?
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, no. I do not have the "mad genius" to use a phrase that we heard in the House yesterday. No, I am not like Hitler. If the noble Earl considers that I am like him, I suppose that that is a kind of compliment.
I refer to Judge Tumim's report. I deal with only one aspect. In the terms of reference he was asked specifically to pay attention,
"to the risks posed by mentally disturbed prisoners; and to make recommendations".
It is that topic to which I have returned in recent times more than once, as the noble Earl well knows.
What does Judge Tumim say about the subject? He states that a good many people who are in prison should be in mental hospitals. That is widely stated. I shall not go into it in detail. I think that the Home Office believes that that is true up to a point. Various suggestions are made. I should like to dwell on one aspect. It is new in my recollection. Judge Tumim states:
"Nevertheless, given the facilities at present available within the NHS and the penal system, it seems absolutely inevitable from our observations at Brixton and elsewhere

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that the Service will find itself looking after very disturbed, non-consenting patients for varying periods of time … without any clear basis for treating them".
The crucial sentence is as follows:
"Until such time as the NHS is able to respond adequately"—
That means of course until it has far more money than it now has—
"the Service"—
that means the prison medical service—
"must provide appropriate and proper care to these people in prison. It would be of considerable assistance"—
and he states this also in connection with Brixton—
"if the prison hospital, wholly or in part … could be upgraded and staffed to a standard so that it could be designated a psychiatric hospital within the meaning of the Mental Health Act".
That is a new concept to many of us. It is important for us to dwell on it. We do not expect the noble Earl to say yes or no to it. However, let us consider what it involves.
In referring to psychiatrists, I know a forensic psychiatrist when I see one, and there are only about 60 forensic psychiatrists in the country. They are at the top of the profession in this connection. Leaving aside the doctors, the forensic psychiatrists and persons of that order, what about the nurses?
I gave the noble Earl notice of this point; it may not have reached him. I wished to ask this crucial question: how far does the training of prison staff in a prison hospital compare with the training of nurses in a psychiatric hospital? If the noble Earl did not receive notice of that question I cannot expect him to answer it. On the face of it, there is no comparison. The ordinary prison officer with a little psychiatric training does not compare with a fully fledged nurse.
I do not know whether one can refer to someone sitting on the Woolsack; perhaps they live in a different world from ours. But there is someone sitting on the Woolsack who is a fully trained nurse. I am sure that her training was vastly more prolonged than that which could possibly be offered to a nurse wearing a white coat in a prison hospital.
If we are to make sense of that concept—I believe that it is important—in the foreseeable future a great many people may need psychiatric treatment in prison hospitals who cannot or should not be transferred to other hospitals. How can we make sure that they receive the same treatment as they would receive in psychiatric hospitals? That is the main point that I wish to make. I do not expect too clear an answer because it is a new concept which needs much consideration.
I wish to lay one other proposition before the Minister. Again I do not expect too definite an answer today. I hope that he will not snub me.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it was the use of that word that made me show surprise. I apologise for again interrupting the noble Earl. I was not aware that I had ever snubbed him. I would not wish to do so. It was only the suggestion that surprised me so.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, that is a charming response. It seems to me that the buck passes from one department to another: from the Home Office to the Department of Health. I do not believe that we shall ever have a sensible approach in dealing with these great questions relating to disturbed offenders unless we bring the Home Office and the Department of Health together in some new arrangement. I do not mean that they should be fused, but one must consider ways in which to look at the problems jointly. Unless we do so, neither will change.
2.8 p.m.
Lord Henderson of Brompton: My Lords, only one of Judge Tumim's reports is enough to shock the public and it should be enough to galvanise the Government into immediate activity. The cumulative effects of the continuing series amounts to an indictment of the administration of the prison system as a whole. The system as it is revealed by the Tumim reports on Leeds and Brixton Prisons can no longer be tolerated.
I shall not repeat Judge Tumim's damning sentences on the impoverished regimes which he revealed in those prisons. Instead, by contrast, I shall recite the basic guidelines of the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners. They were formulated as long ago as 1955 and the European prison rules were formulated in 1987. The 1987 rules state:
"Every effort shall be made to ensure that the regimes of the institutions are designed and managed so as"—
and these words should be borne in mind when reading the reports,

"(a) to ensure that the conditions of life are compatible with human dignity and acceptable standards in the community;

(b) to minimise the detrimental effects of imprisonment and the differences between prison life and life at liberty which tend to diminish the self-respect or sense of personal responsibility of prisoners;

(c) to sustain and strengthen those links with relatives and the outside community that will promote the best interests of prisoners and their families;

(d) to provide opportunities for prisoners to develop skills and aptitudes that will improve their prospects of successful resettlement after release".

Those rules demonstrate the huge gap which exists between the recommended rules of the United Nations and of Europe—they are by no means airy fairy; they are the standard rules recommended for any civilised society—and the squalid regimes as revealed in the reports.
At this late hour of two o'clock I shall be brief and limit myself to two comments. The first is about rule (b) dealing with self respect and sense of personal responsibility. I remember the Minister of State, Mr. John Patten, for whom I have great respect, saying words to the effect that prison conditions produce the ultimate in the dependency culture. What good does that do for the prisoner or for the country as a whole? I cannot refrain from making the grim observation that the expression "dependency culture" has a new

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and sinister connotation in view of the epidemic of suicide by hanging engendered by impoverished regimes revealed by Judge Tumim.
Secondly, in previous reports, in these reports and, I am sure, in future reports, Judge Tumim finds that overcrowding is the root cause of the impoverished regimes. Accordingly, I welcome the Criminal Justice Bill which should go some way towards reducing the prison population. However, a far more radical attack should be mounted on reducing the number of people in prison. There is a good case for saying that about 75 per cent. of the prison population could be treated outside prison to the great advantage of the country. I should be prepared to substantiate that perhaps in a subsequent debate on the number of people in prison. That would also be of great advantage to the prisoners and the residual 25 per cent. who must be locked up for the protection of society. Then the prison regimes for the residual 25 per cent. could be radically improved.
The noble Earl, Lord Longford, spoke about those who are mentally afflicted in one way or another. It is widely recognised that there are many other people who should not be in prison. I am glad that the new Home Secretary appears to be sympathetic to that point of view and has made remarks about sexual offenders with which I agree. At any rate, I believe that we shall not achieve that or anything like it unless there is a kind of mission statement on the reduction of prison numbers by the responsible Minister who is, of course, the Secretary of State, as called for by Judge Tumim in respect of one of the prisons under review. Nothing less than a mission statement and action following it will do.
I conclude that the improvement of those impoverished regimes in prison can only go hand in hand with an all-out attack on the numbers of those sent to prison. Earlier this year, but not in this Session, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, said in this House, in his unique style, that prison,
"is an expensive method of warehousing people".
Prison is expensive in many more respects than mere cash terms, as we learn so vividly from Judge Tumim's stark reports. I commend those reports to the noble and learned Lord and to his brethren on the Bench, both the higher and lower judiciary, for Christmas reading. After all, it is they who send people to those impoverished regimes.
2.15 p.m.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, once again the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has asked the House to consider the state of Her Majesty's prisons. Although we have been through this exercise, sadly, on many previous occasions, we feel that this time the need for the reforms that we have continually pressed the Government to undertake is rendered more urgent because of the devastating indictments contained in not one but two reports from Judge Stephen Tumim—one on Leeds and the other on Brixton—and today the overall condemnation conveyed by the inquiry into prison deaths.
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The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, made the point that we now have a strong position to present to the Minister who, I know, has always been sympathetic. Previously, he has been unable to agree to any of the suggestions which have been put forward. We hope that he may be able to do so today.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, my noble friend Lord Longford, and the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, have pointed to parts of the reports which they found of greatest significance. I shall not follow them on that. However, I should like to pick out one or two points and ask the Minister one or two questions.
We must ask the Minister to comment on the chief inspector's two main recommendations on Leeds prison: first, that remand prisoners under the age of 21 should no longer be sent to B Wing of Armley Prison; and secondly, that a task force be set up to improve the regime of the whole prison and that his recommendations should be properly financed. My noble friend Lord Longford made the very important point that any recommendations accepted by the Government must include an assurance that the funds will be provided to put into effect such recommendations.
It seems to me surprising that the report carried out by the chief inspector on 4th to 8th December 1989 should not have been published until 6th December 1990. I do not understand the reason for that. Perhaps the Minister can help.
Young offenders are energetic and in particular need of occupation and exercise. When one reads of the conditions in which they are held and also having heard the noble Lord, Lord Harris, quote the description given, one wonders why there are not more incidents of suicide and self harm in such an establishment. I am sure that one should give credit to the prison officers who spend a lot of time helping young people who are going through very traumatic periods in their lives. We should recognise that. The chief inspector's report also said that the original Fresh Start deployment arrangements were now in need of amendment. As all staff associations reported morale problems—meaning low morale among their members—Judge Tumim suggested that more effort should be made to use the Whitley machinery to consult staff regarding changes in the prison. That again would seem to be important.
I thought it was very worrying to see that, although the workshops were of good quality, they were grossly underused. The report suggested that more financial incentive should be given to encourage inmates to work. I have often spoken on the subject of the remuneration scale in our prisons, which compares ludicrously to the remuneration given in prisons in neighbouring countries in Western Europe. They decided that it was important to provide higher wages so that prisoners could feel not only that there was some point in working, but also could help their families at home. We are light years away from that.
As the noble Lord, Lord Harris mentioned, I too was struck by the recommendation regarding censoring. Arrangements for censoring are about to be

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centralised. We felt that there was an overwhelming common sense case for a radical reduction in censoring. The present limitations on convicted prisoners' use of letters should be removed. I cannot see the point of prison officers spending a lot of time on that. It must also be an unnecessary aggravation to prisoners to know that every word written has been read.
The Prison Officers Association felt that it had been running a campaign for many years to have young prisoners removed from Armley. Therefore the association endorsed the recommendation of Judge Tumim It felt that overcrowding should be reduced and regime enhancement was necessary. Again, it was in agreement with a great deal of the report on Leeds Prison. It also brought up the point of why the completed report was left to gather dust for so long before being published. That is a point I have already made.
Perhaps I may briefly refer to the report on Brixton. One noticed immediately the very strong headlines to which the report gave rise. There were headlines such as, "A scandal which must be stopped", "Intolerable", and other strong condemnations. Both the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and my noble friend Lord Longford spoke of the F wing. I shall not repeat what they said, but I should like to ask the Minister a question which I believe to be of importance. I hope that he will reply.
I remember in the mid-1980s, when the situation in C1 unit of Holloway was considered to be intolerable, a group was set up to monitor the situation and the conditions there. That improved the conditions of the unit, which I visited recently, out of all comparison. That was not easy. Perhaps the Minister would consider assembling a group of interested experts to provide continuous advice on reforming the conditions in the F wing of Brixton Prison. If it had the same effect there, it would be very encouraging.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Harris, in regard to the tare in the community programme. It was at Holloway that the resident psychiatrist told me how he and his colleagues were beginning to realise that in Holloway they were treating the very same women as in previous years they had treated in a psychiatric institution. Again, one wonders what we are after. Are we moving people who have mental disturbances from one place to another to treat them? I suggest that prison is the last place in which such people should be treated.
Looking quickly through the conclusions and recommendations, it is clear that Brixton as a building is hopelessly inadequate. The report states:
"The site is cramped, most buildings are old, prisoners are overcrowded and facilities for inmates and staff hardly exist. There is no room, physical or financial, for manoeuvre or discretion. As the inmates observed … slopping out, perverse meal-times, unhygienic accommodation and inadequate kit made a poor life. There was no Education Centre or Gymnasium for them and access to the Library was irregular. Visits were short and the visits area grubby. Even the working group of sentenced inmates received minimal facilities and help.
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All that points to the fact that as a building and a regime there is very little to be said.
The conclusions on the medical unit have already been referred to, but again I ask the Minister whether he has a view on the proposal which my honourable and right honourable friends in another place have outlined. They are tabling an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill which will put an obligation on the courts to obtain a psychiatric report on all persons suspected of having a mental condition. Again, that is one possible way of preventing so many mentally disordered prisoners in F wing.
I refer now to Recommendation 6.08 which states that the staff complement should be fully met. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that. I also refer to Recommendation 6.09 which states that the proportion of the members of the Board of Visitors drawn from the local community should be increased. I should be grateful if the Minister could perhaps also comment on that recommendation.
I also note the recommendation that the visitors' centre should be replaced and that the addition of an advice centre should be considered. The shelters outside the centre also appear to be inadequate. I have always felt that it is wrong for us to punish the families of prisoners as well as the prisoners themselves. The conditions in which mothers and children have to wait in order to see their relatives can be heartbreaking.
I know that we are not debating Judge Tumim's inquiry into the suicides, but when reading the Independent this morning I noticed a significant quotation. The inquiry report says that Home Office guidance to prisons on how to stop men killing themselves:
"fails to give weight to the need to sustain people during their time in custody".
It is not a matter of removing the means of a prisoner to take his life but removing the reasons why the prisoner feels he must take his life.
There are many more points that could be made but I shall not detain the House any further except to say that after all the years I have spoken in this House about prison reform I feel that at last there is perhaps a slight light at the end of the tunnel. We have been asking for these reforms for a long time and what the new Home Secretary is reported to have said gives one some hope. If the Government make the changes which we so ardently wish to see, I believe a great deal of credit will go to Judge Tumim for his professionalism, honesty and courage. I am sure that all of us who are interested in seeing some change in our penal system and in our prisons are extremely grateful to him.
2.30 p.m.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the House will again be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for raising this subject today even though it is the last business before your Lordships get on your proverbial sledges. He is quite right to bring these matters to our attention. He does so with a degree of forthrightness which is characteristic of him. He is right to raise these

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issues because they are very important matters about which we are all concerned. The Government are concerned, and they struggle hard to deal with them.
A great many improvements have been made to the prison system and many more need to be made. I am the first to recognise that. The noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, said that requests had been made for things to be done for so long that she hoped that something would now happen. I am sure that she would not wish to insinuate in any way that not a great deal has happened, because it has. A great deal is happening. The Criminal Justice Bill that is coming forward is concerned with the possibility of sentencing people within the community in order to keep them out of prison. A very great deal of money has been spent on prison buildings: more needs to be spent. A great deal is being done.
We are presented with a situation which is not necessarily to the liking of the Government of the day but is one to which they have a responsibility to react and do their best to put right. In the delightful manner which he always produces, the noble Earl, Long Longford, said that he had prepared a long speech which I believe he said would take two hours. However, he said that it was unnecessary for him to divest himself of the whole speech because his noble friend Lady Ewart-Biggs was going to make a speech which relieved him of the necessity. I congratulate her on the fact that she did not take two hours to divest herself of the speech. I am in a difficult position. Like the noble Earl, I prepared a speech. But there was no means by which anyone else could remove the obligation from me to make that speech. However, I can assure your Lordships that I shall not speak for two hours.
At the outset I wish to say that we attach importance to the reports which we receive. His Honour Judge Tumim has presented two or three forthright reports recently, all of which raise matters of concern. The Government are most concerned to try to deal with them. We take the criticisms very seriously. Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons is characteristically forthright in his views. The reports are critical of serious shortcomings in both the prisons. Nobody likes criticism, and the Government are in the same position. We intend to deal with that criticism as best we can. We have identified a range of matters where improvements are required.
I can assure your Lordships that strenuous efforts have been, and will continue to be, made in order to improve the quality of life for the inmates of these prisons. A formal response to each of the reports has been published and laid in the Library. The noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, asked why the Government have taken so long to respond to the report on Leeds Prison. The report on that prison was submitted at the end of March. The response made by my right honourable friend took longer than usual. That was mainly due to the wide-ranging nature of the report which included 165 recommendations—a tremendous number. A number of those envisaged major changes in the physical conditions at Leeds
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Prison and its regime which required extensive consultation between the prison service headquarters, the then regional director and the prison governor.
In publishing their responses my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and his predecessor accepted frankly and openly how much needs to be done at both establishments. That does not mean that we underestimate for one moment the work already taking place at the prisons. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, was generous enough to recognise the work already done by a very dedicated staff who work in difficult and overcrowded conditions which all of us would prefer not to see. The work that they do is remarkable, and together with the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I pay tribute to them.
The publication of the responses is only one step in a continuing process. That process entails the implementation of prison service plans to reduce overcrowding; increasing the proportion of cells with integral sanitation or with access to night sanitation; extending the regime opportunities and completing and consolidating improvements in management and staff performance.
Responding to an inspectorate report provides an occasion for reviewing and reassessing the plans which are in hand. Perhaps I may refer to the buildings first, because it is a major item which always crops up. A major development of Leeds Prison is under way. It will cost more than £60 million. Work is starting very shortly on installing showers in each wing of the prison which should be completed by next March. The reception area has been redecorated and ventilation is being improved. The overriding priority, however, has been to press ahead with new buildings which will provide accommodation for more than 500 prisoners. These buildings will be ready late in 1992. When they are ready, inmates will be transferred to them and work can start on improving the existing wings.
Brixton is a very busy prison on a cramped and congested site. The installation of integral sanitation work is now well in hand. By next April, work will be completed on A wing. Drainage work is already under way in preparation for work on other wings. Ways of accelerating the programme will be reviewed when new accommodation becomes available elsewhere in London. As the chief inspector recognised, reductions in the prison population at these two prisons will open the way to further improvements. He recommended in particular that young men under 21 years of age should not be held at Leeds Prison.
No prison should be viewed on its own. In July my right honourable friend announced proposals for changes to the prison estate. These were intended to take account of changes to the prison population and especially the fall in the number of young offenders in custody. Where custody cannot be avoided, maximum use is made of the Mental Health Act to transfer to hospital those mentally disturbed inmates who require hospital treatment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, asked how the prison service is responding to the taskforce recommendation. In the period since the inspection

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the amount of structured regime activity for convicted inmates at Leeds has been increased significantly. The head of inmate activities post has been upgraded. At prison service headquarters the relevant area manager has been charged with raising the number of hours of structured activity at Leeds, taking forward the concerted approach to these matters which was recommended by the inspectors, with the authority and under the direct supervision of the relevant operational director of the new organisation. In that way the objective of the recommendation that there should be a task force for improving the regime will be met.
With regard to young prisoners, my right honourable friend announced proposals for changes to the prison estate. They provided an opportunity to improve conditions in which young offenders are held, especially those who are on remand in local prisons. The Home Secretary has concluded that from the second half of next year these young prisoners will be held at a new establishment—Moorland, near Doncaster—which will have modern accommodation and the opportunity for much better regime provision than before.
In London the opening of two new prisons in the London area —at Belmarsh in Woolwich in April 1991 and at Highdown in Surrey in 1992—will go a long way to alleviate the problem of overcrowding at Brixton, together with the redesignation of the Mount at Hemel Hempstead as a Category C prison for adult males. These measures will greatly reduce overcrowding in all the London prisons. In fact the population of Brixton will be fixed at a maximum of 900, as opposed to the 1,080 it is now. We hope that that will take place from about April onwards.
Of course the work of the prison service cannot be judged in isolation from the Government's criminal justice strategy. Last week we had a debate on the Motion of my noble friend Lord Elton in connection with sentencing policy which touched on questions of overcrowding, the development of community penalties and the diversion of mentally disordered offenders from prison custody. That too is one of the ways in which the Government are addressing these very serious matters.
It is in part a response to the critical reports from Her Majesty's Inspectorate. There are a very large number of mentally disturbed people held in the hospital at Brixton. I readily recognise that the prison service is obliged to help people who are remanded in custody by the courts and it is the function of Brixton to deal with those who are awaiting trial. Mentally disordered offenders should not be put into prison, and when I say that I know that I shall take with me the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs. Mentally disordered persons should not be put into prison and they ought to be diverted from the criminal justice system—
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, the noble Earl has been kind about me and I feel I ought not to interrupt him, but there is one point which occurs to me. I understood him to say that it was intended that
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Brixton should hold 900 in future. In the report in front of me it says that the prison has certified normal accommodation for 729 inmates.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, that is perfectly true. The certified normal accommodation would be that, but the fact is that it is necessary at the moment for the population to be above that simply because we do not have facilities to hold all these people. That is why the population of the prison will come down from its considerable overcrowding at the moment to the lower figure; but I agree that it will still be above the CNA.
Obviously mentally disordered offenders should be diverted from the criminal justice system into the care of the health and social services, except of course when custody is necessary in the public interest. Obviously while custody cannot be avoided, maximum use has to be made of the Mental Health Act to transfer to hospital those mentally disturbed inmates who require treatment.
There is effective co-operation, which I think was the noble Earl's point, between the Department of Health and the Home Office over the diversion of mentally disturbed people. We are concerned to see that the co-operation should be continued and built upon because the requirements of mentally disordered people are different from those who are basically criminals.
The United Nations standard minimum rules and the European rules set standards, and the Government are committed to working towards them. In fact we are nearer to achieving them, I think, than most other countries. Brixton is certainly heavily used by the courts for the purpose of assessing the mental health of defendants. Some 2,500 psychiatric reports are prepared for the courts annually by Brixton's medical officers. That is a tremendous amount: over one-third of the national total.
One immediate difficulty with the chief inspector's recommendation that part of the Brixton Hospital should be approved under the Mental Health Act 1983 is that it could risk encouraging courts to send more mentally disturbed offenders to prison, which I think none of your Lordships would want. It would run directly counter to the clearly enunciated government policy on the diversion of those prisoners to the care of the health or social services.
The noble Earl, Lord Longford, asked about the training provided for nurses in prison hospitals compared with that in psychiatric hospitals. I am grateful to him for the courtesy he showed in letting me know that he would raise that matter. NHS registered psychiatric nurses receive three years' training. Prison hospital officers receive six months' basic training, but the prison service is seeking to increase the opportunities for staff to take additional English Nursing Board courses and is aiming to recruit extra qualified civilian nurses. That is in line with the recommendation of the recent efficiency scrutiny of the prison medical service which recommended that more nurse-qualified personnel should be involved. Ministers will shortly be looking at how best to implement that recommendation.

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The noble Lord, Lord Harris, was worried about the censorship of the correspondence from potentially suicidal people. A pilot scheme was run earlier this year to reduce the routine censorship of category B dispersal prisoners. That included Leeds, and the Government are studying the result to see whether the arrangements can be extended to similar prisons. He also referred to the fact that people spend hours in cells furnished with nothing other than a bed and a basin. Where people are suicidal, it is sometimes necessary that they should sometimes be in unfurnished cells. Our clear policy is that that is justified as a last resort only where there is an immediate risk of serious self injury. Even then, it is vital to provide as much stimulation and human contact as possible. I agree with the noble Lord that if people are confined to their cells for a long time with nothing to do and nothing to look at, that can have a deleterious effect on their general disposition.
A working group has been established to consider the recommendation, a point about which the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, was concerned. It will bring in outside advice. The Department of Health is represented on the group, which will be assisted by an independent consultant and chaired by the Director of Prison Medical Services. It has its first meeting today.
I come now to the point which has worried most noble Lords because of the most recent report on suicides by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons. There is great anxiety about suicides. It is an anxiety which has been expressed by noble Lords on all sides of the House today, and it is one which the Government share. Any suicide is a desperately sad event for the inmate's family, the prison staff and the other inmates. It is all the more tragic when the victim is still a young person.
One must recognise that however much we try and try we must—we cannot hope to eliminate suicide in prison, any more than we can in the world outside where unfortunately suicide by young people has become more common. The person who is determined to kill himself will somehow find a way to do so. We must try to create a climate in our prisons which counters suicidal feeling. We must back that up by effective prevention measures. Considerable efforts have been made at Leeds Prison to achieve that, and those efforts continue under the present governor. A number of specific measures were taken following an investigation by the then Deputy Director General of the Prison Service into conditions in the young offender wing.
First, as at Brixton, a suicide prevention management group has been established with representatives from all key departments in the prison. The group meets regularly and plays an increasingly active role. It has recently started to review every incident of self-injury in the prison. The aim is to see what lessons can be learnt and to ensure that the necessary support is given to the inmate concerned.
The second initiative is the training of staff. Relationships between inmates and staff are absolutely crucial. We hope to identify those who may be at
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risk and then to support them through their suicidal crisis. Prison staff themselves need extra training in order to develop the skills required. An excellent course has been developed for both the new entrant and serving prison officers. I am glad to say that over the past year or so the majority of the staff at Leeds have been able to attend the course. At Brixton priority is given to those staff who are in daily contact with inmates.
Since the distressing deaths of five young men at Leeds nearly two years ago, there have been two further deaths at Leeds. There have been five this year at Brixton Prison. That is far too many, as everyone would accept.
At Brixton, where the chief inspector criticised the design of cells, work has been put in hand to change the construction of windows in cells which may hold potentially suicidal inmates. So far 50 have been altered and the work will be completed by July 1991. At the same time arrangements are being made to provide easier access to the Samaritans and to facilitate contact with families.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, referred to race relations. He said that he had heard about racist attitudes not just from the staff but from people outside. Racism in all its forms is totally unacceptable, whether in the prison service, the police service or any other branch of government. We have made determined efforts and efforts are being made to implement the service's race relations policy. Every governor has to appoint a race relations officer and to establish a race relations management team. This has been done at Brixton where the team has developed contacts not just within the prison but, more important, outside with embassies and community groups. It has arranged further training for staff.
The noble Lord was also worried about lunchtime drinking by staff. I know that there is pretty persuasive anecdotal evidence of the adverse effects of drinking by staff. They need to be alert at all times and much can be achieved by encouragement and persuasion. The service's occupational health programme offers counselling and support where that proves necessary. However, if necessary, disciplinary action has been and can be taken. It was taken recently against two members of staff.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, was also concerned about the wearing of insignia. He asked what I would have done in the Coldstream Guards, in which I had the privilege of serving for a short while, and whether I put insignia on my arms. No doubt I should have found my way into the guardroom at a pretty good rate of knots. However, I also remember the fashion for having a slash in one's cap, which was considered to be smart. That also was much frowned upon by the authorities—for different reasons, no doubt, than that for which the slashing of caps by prison officers is frowned upon by the authorities.
The slashing of peaks is unacceptable. A code of discipline for prison officers includes a specific disciplinary offence of wilful or negligent damage to clothing which is entrusted to officers. Earlier in the

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year an instruction was issued prohibiting the wearing of unofficial insignia, with one or two exceptions. They were for such things as professional nursing badges and Butler Trust badges. Slashing has been entirely eliminated at Leeds.
Governors are encouraged to take disciplinary action for disobedience of orders against any officer who persistently continues to slash his cap or to wear unofficial insignia, whether obviously or in some discreet way. Staff at Brixton and Leeds have been specifically reminded of the terms of the headquarters guidance. The inspection reports which have been the matter of discussion by your Lordships this afternoon have identified how much still needs to be done to improve conditions at Leeds and Brixton. We are aware of the situation. However, the reports rightly pay tribute, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and I did earlier, to the staff at both prisons. The area managers and the operational directors who will be closely involved in following up the recommendations of the reports, are determined to ensure that the shortcomings found by the chief inspector will be overcome. The responses received from the Home Secretary, which were published with the reports, indicated what is already being done and what is planned. The changes of role for other establishments and the achievements of the building and refurbishment programme will all help to improve conditions.
Together with the changes in the criminal justice strategy, to which I referred in my opening remarks, and the sentencing policy which the Government are pursuing, prisons ought to become less oppressive places and ones which are less given to the furtherance of crime. That is what we all want and that is the aim towards which we work. Such opportunities are opening up the possibility for the plans of the prison service to become more of a reality. It is to be hoped that these will be realised. However, this is a constant path along which we must walk and it will take a little time. Nevertheless, those are our intentions.

Royal Assent
3 p.m.
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Act,
Fraserburgh Harbour Order Confirmation Act.

Motion for the Adjournment
Lord Denham: My Lords, in moving the adjournment of the House, I should like on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches to wish noble Lords from all parts of the Chamber a happy Christmas, a refreshing Recess and an equally happy New Year. I believe that I speak for the whole House in wishing the same to the many people in the Palace of Westminster who make possible all the work which we carry out in this place. I refer to all those who look after our
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comfort, to those who undertake the back-up facilities of every kind and especially to those concerned with security outside. I extend that wish to the Hansard writers, to those in the Press Gallery and the Lobby and to the television crews who bring what we do inside this Chamber to the world outside.
On this occasion I should like to offer particular thanks and good wishes to the Clerk of the Parliaments whose Christmas Recess will be rather longer than that of the rest of us; but who, nonetheless, we hope to see back in this building many times in the future.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, it only remains for me to say, "Amen". However, I believe that convention will allow me to say a little more. The noble Lord, Lord Denham, in his customary efficient style has virtually covered all those people whom we should mention. I do not intend to refer to any particular group because what he said was said with a full heart, and most generously, on behalf of the whole House. Although he speaks from his side of the House, I know that everything said by me and others will be virtually a repeat of what he said.
However, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Cledwyn, I should like to take this opportunity to say that we recognise that the past few weeks have been particularly traumatic, not least for the Government Chief Whip and for the leadership of the House. We recognise, as always, that the new Leader of the House, as was the case with his predecessor, and the noble Lord, Lord Denham, act invariably on behalf of the whole House, without any partisan interest whatever. We are most grateful for that fact,
As we thank all of those who have made our time in this House since we last paid tribute to them comparatively comfortable, I should like to take this opportunity to express our thanks to the noble Lord the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Denham, because there are many ways in which things could be much less comfortable than they are. Although my experience in the position which I am very proud to hold is short, I wish to acknowledge the debt that we all owe to the noble Lord. Lord Denham, as well as to many others.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, in joining in wishing the whole House a happy Christmas I find that the comprehensive list of thanks has been rather more comprehensive than usual. Speaking third one is always stretched to say something slightly different. However, the one point on which I do not wish to say anything different concerns our good wishes to the Clerk of the Parliaments as he goes on his merry way to write history for us.
There is perhaps one group of people in our midst we tend to forget. Those are the noble Lords who sit on the Woolsack, including the noble and learned Lord himself, and those who sit in the Chair during Committee stages of Bills. It is an onerous task, and I am sure that it can be terribly boring at times. To see one or two of the Committee chairmen rattling through government amendments at the end of a

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Committee stage is a sight to behold. We are very grateful to them for the work they put in in making sure that the business of the House runs smoothly.
We have had a somewhat mixed year. We have left undone one thing that we normally do: this year nobody has asked about the sex of the pelicans in St. James's Park. Doubtless the other standard question, which comes up just before Easter, about fixing the date for Easter will be put by my noble friend Lord Airedale. I am sorry that we have missed the pelicans this year. Doubtless the omission will be remedied later.
In wishing everybody a happy Christmas perhaps we should bear in mind that when we come back in the new year we face difficult times. Therefore, at this time of celebration of the birth of the Prince of Peace we should not forget that we look forward to a peaceful 1991. I wish you all a happy Christmas and a very good new year.
Baroness Hylton-Foster: My Lords, those sitting on the Cross-Benches would also like to join in the thanks to everybody who works in the House of Lords, whether we see them or whether we do not. They are all part of the team which looks after us so well.
We should like to add our special thanks to those that have already been expressed to the Clerk of the Parliaments and the noble Lord the leader of the House. We should especially like to thank all those who have been concerned and still are concerned with the move of the Cross-Bench Peers into their new room. We are very grateful to them all.
We wish everybody an enjoyable Christmas and a happy new year.
House adjourned for the Christmas Recess at two minutes past three o'clock until Monday, 14th January next.

  TERRORIST ORGANISATION REPRESENTATIVES' STATEMENTS: NOTICE TO BROADCASTERS OF RESTRICTIONS
  TERRORIST ORGANISATION REPRESENTATIVES' STATEMENTS: NOTICE TO BROADCASTERS OF RESTRICTIONS
  IMMIGRANTS: DNA TESTING
  IMMIGRANTS: DNA TESTING
  FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL, 18TH and 19TH DECEMBER
  FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL, 18TH and 19TH DECEMBER
  AIRPORT SUPPLEMENTARY CREDIT APPROVALS
  AIRPORT SUPPLEMENTARY CREDIT APPROVALS
  TRANSPORT COUNCIL, 17TH AND 18TH DECEMBER
  TRANSPORT COUNCIL, 17TH AND 18TH DECEMBER
  MARINE ARCHAEOLOGY: RESPONSE TO REPORT
  MARINE ARCHAEOLOGY: RESPONSE TO REPORT
  LEICESTER CITY: REFUSE COLLECTION TENDERING DIRECTION
  LEICESTER CITY: REFUSE COLLECTION TENDERING DIRECTION
  THURROCK: STREET CLEANING TENDERING DIRECTION
  THURROCK: STREET CLEANING TENDERING DIRECTION
  ENVIRONMENTAL GRANT FUND
  ENVIRONMENTAL GRANT FUND
  HUMAN FETAL TISSUE: USE IN RESEARCH
  HUMAN FETAL TISSUE: USE IN RESEARCH
  JUVENILES: LOCAL AUTHORITY SECURE PLACES
  JUVENILES: LOCAL AUTHORITY SECURE PLACES
  TAVISTOCK AND PORTMAN CLINICS: MANAGEMENT ARRANGEMENTS
  TAVISTOCK AND PORTMAN CLINICS: MANAGEMENT ARRANGEMENTS
  DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: THERAPY POSTS
  DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: THERAPY POSTS
  DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS: MINISTER'S UNDERTAKING
  DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS: MINISTER'S UNDERTAKING