Sitting of 31 October 1988

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  WALES

    Teaching Unions
    Dr. Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of the teaching unions in Wales; and what matters were discussed.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. Wyn Roberts): I met representatives of the National Association of Schoolmasters/Union of Women Teachers on 20 October 1988 and representatives of the Secondary Headteachers Association and the Welsh Secondary Schools Association on 21 October 1988. On both occasions a range of matters relating to the provisions of the Education Reform Act 1988 were discussed.
    Dr. Thomas: During those meetings, did the Minister dicuss the work of the Curriculum Council for Wales? Did he tell the unions that he intends that the council should cover the entire range of curricula activities in Wales, that the council is on a par with the Curriculum Council for England, and that its activities will not be limited to certain aspects of Welsh culture or Welsh curriculum content?
    Mr. Roberts: The work of the council arose at the meetings. I think the hon. Gentleman realises that its final remit was issued on 12 October. The council's role is to offer advice on all aspects of the school curriculum, including the national curriculum in Wales, to carry out research and curriculum development work and to disseminate information in Wales on all matters to do with the school curriculum. Initially, the council is concentrating on our proposals for mathematics and science. It is preparing early advice on the need for teacher training.
    Mr. Nicholas Bennett: I support the general principle of the Welsh language being a foundation subject in the school curriculum, but will my hon. Friend bear in mind the concern that is being expressed in Pembrokeshire by parents and teachers in schools where there is no tradition of teaching Welsh and no demand for it? If these schools should make a request to be exempt from the teaching of Welsh as part of the core curriculum, will my hon. Friend listen with care and concern and ensure that their considerations are given the highest priority?
    Mr. Roberts: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his general support for Welsh being a foundation subject. He will be aware that it is precisely because of the possibility of a situation such as that to which he referred that we
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    have made provision for exemption under the Education Reform Act 1988. We hope that the power of exemption that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has will not been used extensively in Wales.
    Mr. Barry Jones: May I tell the Minister of the dismay of teachers unions in Clwyd, and of parents and staff, concerning Ysgol Belmont, a special school where work experience for slow learners is in danger of foundering in the next year because of a lack of only £3,000? Will the Minister use his good offices with the Training Commission and the local education authority so that a valuable scheme that prepares pupils of older age for work after leaving school can survive? Will he be able to find the money to help the scheme?
    Mr. Roberts: If the hon. Gentleman will write to me about the matter, as I am sure he will, I shall be happy to examine the details.
    Mr. Alan Williams: When the Minister met the teachers, did he discuss the future impact on sixth forms of the preposterous and reactionary document which has been produced by the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science with responsibility for higher education—it was circulated on 25 July—which envisages the end of free higher education and the introduction of higher education vouchers based on examination results instead of ability to pay and need? The document presages the encouragement of universities to charge fees over and above the fees that are refunded by the local authorities and suggests that the shortage of teachers will be met by allowing classes to grow larger, not by training more teachers. It even suggests that there needs to be a cut in the number of youngsters who are training to be doctors, vets and dentists. What status does the document have? I notice that the letter from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, which led to the production of the document, was addressed precisely to the Minister.
    Mr. Roberts: The right hon. Gentleman's interpretation of that document is completely at variance with its actual content. He will not be very surprised to learn that none of the unions that I met raised the subject of that document.
    Sir Raymond Gower: Has my hon. Friend noticed the remarkable progress of Welsh-medium schools in Anglicised areas such as parts of my constituency and around Cardiff and Newport? To what extent is that an extra consideration for assisting those schools?
    Mr. Roberts: I welcome, with my hon. Friend, the development of Welsh-medium schools. He will be aware that we tried to increase the number of teachers capable of teaching through the medium of Welsh. We are actively engaged in that. That is one positive form of help that those schools appreciate which we are pursuing.

    Water Privatisation
    Mr. Ron Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends meeting representatives of trade unions in the water industry to discuss the privatisation of the Welsh water authority.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Walker): I have received no request to do so.
    Mr. Davies: Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that if he receives such a request he will accede to it? If he accepts such a request, will he discuss with the trade unions the recent Public Accounts Committee report, which was critical of the privatisation of the Royal Ordnance factories? Will he give the unions guarantees with regard to water privatisation that we will not witness another spectacle of public assets being sold off at knock-down prices to the private sector? In particular, what guarantees is he prepared to give that Welsh water authority's 100,000 acre holding in Wales, much of which consists of incomparable landscape of great recreational value, will not end up as the private playground of foreign water companies?
    Mr. Walker: I am certain that there will be no question of foreign water companies having the kind of interest suggested by the hon. Gentleman. The negotiations on the manner in which it will be sold off and the price that will be paid will be made public. If there are any criticisms of the way in which that is carried out, the hon. Gentleman will be free to express his views. I am certain that the employees in the Welsh water authority will benefit from privatisation.
    Mr. Livsey: Does the Secretary of State agree that the Government's proposed privatisation of water is utter folly? Is he not concerned that staff are already being transferred to the proposed National Rivers Authority before a Bill has come before the House? Is that not a cause of great concern? What mechanisms will the right hon. Gentleman provide to prevent foreign water companies taking over Welsh water authorities?
    Mr. Walker: The mechanisms will emerge as a result of the detailed proposals that will eventually appear about privatisation. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's point about the National Rivers Authority, I am sure he will rejoice in the fact that a body responsible for the river system will continue with the necessary authority and with professional and skilled staff.
    Mr. Rogers: How many times has the Secretary of State for Wales been consulted by the Secretary of State for the Environment about water privatisation, or must he just carry out the diktat of the Secretary of State for the Environment?
    Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman will be relieved and delighted to learn that I was present at all the talks and negotiations and that I played a very active part in them.
    Mr. Raffan: Does my right hon. Friend agree with Mr. Gordon Jones, the chairman of the Water Authorities Association, that privatisation should give the water authorities greater freedom to manage the business better? Does he also agree that in Wales the freedom from a whole battery of Government-imposed controls and the freedom to borrow, or not borrow, as the business requires will enable the Welsh water authority to accelerate its capital programme?
    Mr. Walker: One of the factors that caused great damage to our river systems was the manner in which a whole range of bodies, many of which were publicly owned, were allowed to pollute the rivers with low-investment programmes. I am glad to say that with heavy investment over recent years the situation has
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    improved. I believe that the freedom to borrow and carry out capital investment programmes free of Government interference will he a great advantage.
    Mr. Wigley: Against the background of reports of possible interest from overseas companies in stakes in the water industry, can the Secretary of State give an assurance that he has had discussions with the chairman of the Welsh water authority to try to find a formula to ensure that the control of the authority remains in Wales, even after privatisation?
    Mr. Walker: I have had many talks with the chairman of the Welsh water authority, and we are agreed upon the type of formula that will be necessary.

    Advance Factory Programme
    Mr. Butler: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the progress of advance factory programmes in Wales.
    Mr. Peter Walker: The advance factory programmes of the Welsh Development Agency and Mid-Wales Development are responding well to the sharp upturn in demand for new industrial property. Their ability to do so is a direct consequence of the one third increase in the agencies' property resources that I was able to announce at the beginning of the year.
    Mr. Butler: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the success of the Ford factory investment. Does he concur with the Leader of the Opposition when he says that too much of the outside world still believes the fiction of a gloomy and depressed south Wales?
    Mr. Walker: Yes, I was very relieved that the Leader of the Opposition made such a splendid pronouncement on how well things are going in Wales. Certainly the amount of factory space that is being built and let tells a remarkable story. I am delighted that at least the Leader of the Opposition is pleased about it.
    Mr. Win Griffiths: Does the Secretary of State agree that the investment recently announced by Ford was mainly due to the success of the Ford, Bridgend factory business plan over the past two years, and that that was the major factor?
    Mr. Walker: Yes, of course I do. There is no doubt that without the splendid co-operation of the work force and the high productivity there, there would have been no question at all of Ford going to Wales. Of course that is right. I am also delighted that Government action and Government regional aid were able to make a contribution.

    Organ Transplants
    Mr. Gwilym Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what responses he has received to the draft circular on the provision of donor organs for transplantation; and if he will state what further action he is contemplating to continue the increase in the numbers of transplant operations.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ian Grist): The Welsh Office has consulted on the Hoffenberg report and we are keeping in touch with the Department of Health's consideration of its draft circular.

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    Funds have been made available by the Welsh Office to Lifeline Wales to facilitate the increased identification of potential organ donors.
    Mr. Jones: In that case, can my hon. Friend state when the final draft of the circular will be in circulation, and can he confirm that the outcome will be reviewed two years later, as promised by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health, so that we may then move to a system of required request as surely the only way to make even more substantial progress in this important matter?
    Mr. Grist: My hon. Friend will know that the medical Royal Colleges working party considered that effective procedures as recommended in its report were preferable to the approach envisaged in his Transplant Notification Bill. We undertake to consider legislation if the recommended procedures are not successful.

    Higher Education
    Mr. Alan W. Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures for the percentage of 16 to 19-year-olds involved in full-time education (a) in Dyfed and (b) in Wales.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: Thirty-three per cent. of 16 to 19-year-olds in Dyfed were in full-time education in 1987–88. The figure for Wales was 30 per cent.
    Mr. Williams: Has the Minister compared those figures with figures for France, Germany and Japan, which show that 40 per cent. of their 18-year-olds move on to higher education, and that an overwhelming majority of that age group are involved in full-time education? Is it not the truth that young people in Wales and in Britain are getting a raw deal from the Government in terms of poor education opportunities and apprenticeships being cut to one third? They are left only with state training schemes and with hardly any jobs to go to.
    Mr. Roberts: First, I would have thought that the hon. Member would appreciate how well Dyfed is doing in relation to the rest of Wales and to the rest of Great Britain. As to the situation in foreign countries, of course we would like a greater proportion of our young people to move on to further education rather than leave school, and we are taking active steps to encourage that.
    Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones: Does the Minister accept that one of the problems of providing complete education provision for 16 to 19-year-olds is the lack of proper careers advice in our schools? Does he accept that careers teachers are under tremendous pressure because of the lack of adequate resources? Will the Minister consider ways in which the Welsh Office can ensure that further provision is made available to local authorities, so that proper careers advice is given to children in the age range in question?
    Mr. Roberts: I have looked at and paid close attention to the careers service in Wales, and I have given it every possible encouragement during the period that I have had responsibility for education. I would not say that the careers service and careers teaching in Wales is by any means perfect, but we are doing our utmost to improve it.

    Homelessness
    Mr. Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the present level of homelessness in each district in Wales; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Grist: The most recent figures appear to show a significant reduction in the number of cases accepted by local authorities as homeless.
    Mr. Anderson: Is the Minister aware of the concern by Welsh housing authorities at the figures released by his press office to the Western Mail a few weeks ago, which appear to conflict with their experience? Is he also aware of the puzzlement of those in the voluntary housing sector in Wales at the fact that the Welsh Office figures appear to show that in Wales figures are being reduced, whereas they are increasing in England? Does the Minister, on reflection, still accept the validity of the figures given by his press office?
    Mr. Grist: Oddly enough, the figures are those provided by the local authorities themselves. But, because some doubt has been expressed, I have asked local authorities to validate them.
    Mr. Murphy: Will the new housing body, Housing for Wales, in any way alleviate the plight of the homeless in the Principality? Is the Minister aware of the grave concern in housing circles in Wales about the way in which the head of that body has been appointed? Is he also aware that Welsh local authorities are the proper providers of housing, not bodies that are accountable only to the Secretary of State?
    Mr. Grist: That was a most extraordinary statement by the hon. Gentleman. I would have said that Mr. Allen was a notable man in Welsh life and that he had been widely accepted by local authorities, and by people in housing associations and in the housing business in Wales.
    I am astonished. I would expect the hon. Gentleman to understand that the establishment of Housing for Wales has been widely welcomed for the very reason that people see that the body will have a close understanding of the needs of the people of Wales. It was extraordinary that when I announced the establishment of the body in a housing debate it was attacked by Opposition Members and welcomed throughout the Principality.

    Privatisation
    Mr. Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has had on plans for the privatisation of water and electricity in Wales.
    Mr. Peter Walker: I have received very few representations on either.
    Mr. Flynn: Does the Secretary of State recall from the answers that he has given to me in the past that 75 per cent. of bills paid by Welsh water rate payers are the result of direct Government policies? Does he not feel that Welsh people will not take to the prospect of being rooked by having their undertaking handed over at a bargain price to profiteers—and possibly French profiteers at that? Will he tell us how water is to be made competitive? Will we have a selection of taps so that we can pick the best buy—the

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    loss leader of the day? Will we have three taps, one with hot water, one with cold water and one with Perrier water? Will we have compulsory metering?
    Will the Secretary of State and the other Ministers perhaps interrupt for a moment their frenetic campaigns of self-promotion and self-publicity to speak out for the majority of the people of Wales, who see the proposed privatisation of water and electricity as wasteful, foolish and futile?
    Mr. Walker: As I said in my original answer, I have received very few representations on either of those privatisations. Of the few that I have received, none have been so absurd as the one just made by the hon. Gentleman.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Presumably the Opposition are trying to show that they are better Socialists than Plaid Cymru.
    Is my right hon. Friend aware that the misgivings felt by many of us over the privatisation of water were largely allayed by the creation of the National Rivers Authority? Is he also aware that there remain some misgivings about whether what is proposed for the Central Electricity Generating Board in the privatisation of electricity will take care of the public interest in the same way?
    Mr. Walker: I understand the anxiety that is felt along the lines suggested by my hon. Friend, but I hope that such matters will be dealt with when the final details are published.
    Mrs. Clwyd: Will the Secretary of State give us an assurance that when water is privatised supplies will not be cut off in any circumstances? I am sure he will agree that water is an essential commodity for life and that its non-supply would cause considerable hardship to the young, the elderly and the sick.
    Mr. Walker: I am sure that water supplies will not be cut off in different circumstances from those in which they are cut off under the existing system.
    Sir Raymond Gower: Is my right hon. Friend able to say whether the horrible circumstances mentioned have arisen in those parts of the British Isles where for many years water undertakings have been run by private companies?
    Mr. Walker: About 10 per cent. of our water comes from private companies, and as far as I know there have been no complaints.
    Mr. Rhodri Morgan: Is the Secretary of State able to confirm any of the details that were given in recent press coverage about the privatisation of the electricity industry, in particular its impact on Wales, where the two area distribution boards have the characteristic of about 30 per cent. of their total sales going to two customers—Allied Steel and Wire and the British Steel Corporation in the case of the South Wales Electricity Board, and United Engineering Steels at Brymbo and Anglesey Aluminium in the case of the Merseyside and North Wales electricity board? Will he also confirm that until those area boards have a guarantee that those customers will not shop around, contrary to the Government's White Paper, they are virtually unsaleable in the view of the Government's investment advisers? Finally, will he confirm that in the case of both the water and the electricity industries the only way to solve these problems is to turn them, not into
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    privatised companies, but into consumer co-operatives by giving the shares to all their customers, both industrial and domestic?
    Mr. Walker: I am glad to say that their customers, unlike what happens under nationalisation, will be able to take advantage of such an opportunity and apply for shares. That may well happen, as it did with gas and other enterprises that we have privatised. The detailed proposals will eventually be announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy.

    Hospital Waiting Lists
    Dr. Marek: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new proposals he has for reducing the waiting lists for in-patients in Wales.
    Mr. Grist: The solution lies in continued action by managers and clinicians in health authorities, supported where appropriate by Welsh Office advice, monitoring and funding. This effort will continue.
    Dr. Marek: Does the Minister not realise that the solution lies in his carrying out his promise that by last spring no in-patient would have to wait for more than a month to go into hospital for an urgent operation or for more than a year for a non-urgent operation? When I last asked the Secretary of State for Wales, he said that progress was encouraging. Does the Minister accept that the latest figures show that the waiting list for non-urgent operations has increased? Does he believe that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is numerate? If he is numerate, does the Secretary of State understand the meaning of the word "encouraging"? If he does, surely he should exercise a little more honesty when he speaks to the House. When will the Minister carry out the promise that he made to the people of Wales well over a year ago?
    Mr. Grist: I do not deny that I was perhaps rather rash to repeat the target that my predecessor set in 1986. We cannot achieve these targets overnight, but the hon. Gentleman is a little less than generous. The number of people waiting for more than a month for urgent in-patient treatment fell between March 1987 and March 1988 by almost 30 per cent. That is a rather different figure from those that he quoted.
    Mr. Gwilym Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most important factors in reducing hospital waiting lists in Wales is nurses? If the reports in today's edition of the Western Mail are to be believed, the serious problem of nurses pay must be tackled. If the reports are true, the nurses are being treated once again as a political football by the Opposition parties. Is my hon. Friend able to say what is the position on nurses pay in Wales?
    Mr. Grist: There has been a huge improvement in the position of nurses compared with what we found when we come to power. Their pay had been cut by one fifth, whereas under our proposals nurses pay will rise by over 40 per cent. My hon. Friend may be interested to know that, following the Western Mail article, final details await clarification, but we expect to sort them out shortly. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales will be in a position to make an announcement later this week. We

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    are confident that the nurses pay settlement in Wales will be no less generous than that in England, and it is likely to be more generous.
    Mr. Alan Williams: If, as the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones) suggests, nurses are being used as a political football, is it not the case that at the moment it is the Government who are putting the boot in? Is it not a fact that in Wales, unlike in Scotland and in England, the Welsh Office is delaying the announcement of the final settlement of the pay review? Is it not clear from the evidence that has been submitted by the health authorities that Welsh nurses have been disadvantaged for many years because a higher proportion of nurses in Wales are undergraded than is the case in England? Why, therefore, must the Welsh Office try to enforce a settlement on the authorities that will match the settlement in England? Is the Welsh Office so impotent that the Treasury can just walk all over it? [Interruption.] The Secretary of State laughs. We know that he does not take anything very seriously. Will he explain to the nurses of Wales why, as a result of his intervention, they will not have their back pay by Christmas, whereas their counterparts in England and Scotland will?
    Mr. Grist: The right hon. Gentleman has overlooked the fact that nurses are being regraded. It is a most remarkable achievement for the largest employer in Europe to be able to regrade a service of such size for the first time. The right hon. Gentleman must have missed what I was saying—that the settlement is likely to be more generous in Wales than elsewhere.

    Home Buyers
    Mr. Wigley: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from district councils in Wales concerning the problems facing first-time home-seekers.
    Mr. Grist: A number of local authorities have made representations on this issue. I believe that Housing for Wales will play an important role in tackling the problems of first-time home-seekers.
    Mr. Wigley: Is the Minister aware that house prices in many parts of Wales, including Caernarfon, have doubled this year, making it almost impossible for many young people wishing to buy a house for the first time to hope to compete in that market? Is the Minister further aware that a price of £60,000 may be cheap for somebody who has sold a house for £250,000 in the south-east of England, but that it is far out of the reach of average wage earners in areas such as Gwynedd? When will the Welsh Office intervene in a constructive and positive manner to ensure that such people have some hope of being able to own or rent a house in the foreseeable future?
    Mr. Grist: The hon. Gentleman must accept that a rise in house prices is common throughout the United Kingdom. He will also know that councils in his area have been allocated funds with which to buy houses for renting or for sale to local people, but have not spent some of that money as yet. They seem to be holding on to it for some reason. Housing for Wales will encourage local authorities, in co-operation with private funding, to go
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    into the business of low-cost housing for those who wish to enter the housing market. That is the area in which we expect activity to take place.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Although the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) has raised a real problem, is there not another side to the medal? Many hundreds of thousands of home owners in Wales are now far better off than they have been for a long time.
    Mr. Grist: I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. He has put his finger on an important matter. Sixty-eight per cent. of people in Wales are home owners, which is a higher proportion than in England. That represents a tremendous capital saving for the people of Wales. Suggestions that property prices should be lower might imply that some people want those who own houses to sell them for a lower price than they would otherwise get.
    Mr. Rogers: I assure the Minister that the Opposition understand the great difficulty of his task of providing housing in Wales. We consider it important for him to receive advice from as wide a range of sources as possible. Will he therefore explain why two gentlemen, Mr. John Allen and Colonel Geoffrey Inkin, have between them been vice chairmen of the Land Authority, chairman of the Land Authority, chairman of the Housing for Wales, chairman of Cwmbran development corporation, chairman of Cardiff Bay development corporation, and ex-vice chairman of Cwmbran district council? Why does the Minister not obtain advice from all over Wales, rather than adopt such an incestuous relationship with failed Tory party candidates and Tory placemen?
    Mr. Grist: I suppose that the hon. Gentleman would prefer us to talk to Labour-controlled local authorities, which have managed to sit tight over the years with houses that have rotted and which have failed to provide the houses for which the hon. Gentleman now calls. I am sorry that he has attacked such distinguished gentlemen, who are highly acceptable to those with whom they deal, and, I imagine, respected by his hon. Friends on the Front Bench.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: We have in Devon exactly the same problem of people on low incomes needing houses, but no special provision of this kind to enable the housing to be provided. Will my hon. Friend please arrange for the surplus funds which Welsh local authorities do not apparently want to spend to be transferred to district councils in Devon, which could put them to very good use indeed?
    Mr. Grist: I think that my hon. Friend can fight his own battles with his own Secretary of State.
    Mr. Flynn: Does the Minister agree that the problem of first-time home seekers in Wales is formidable and represents a great mountain of human misery? There are three separate problems: those affected by cheque-book colonisation in the form of holiday homes, which now affects every part of Wales; rocketing prices, which have pushed homes out of the reach of many first-time buyers; and the slashing of council house building, which has cut choice for many of those in the greatest need. There are three crises and three problems. What are the Minister's three solutions?
    Mr. Grist: We have a record build of private housing at the moment—more than 8,000 houses, which is the largest number since 1973. Furthermore, we expect housing associations to start 2,300 houses this year through the Housing Corporation. That is the sort of practical contribution that we are making.

    Voluntary Organisations
    Mr. Knox: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the value of grants from his Department to voluntary organisations in each of the past three years at constant prices.
    Mr. Peter Walker: The figures are £7·31 million in 1985–86, £8·88 million in 1986–87 and £9·34 million in 1987–88.
    Mr. Knox: I greatly welcome the increases in grants. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this very cost-effective form of public expenditure should be increased whenever appropriate and possible?
    Mr. Walker: Yes. I think that it has had very good results in a whole range of areas, and I welcome what has taken place.

    Education Establishments
    Mr. Win Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what visits he has made in the past three months to educational establishments in Wales.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: On Monday 26 September I visited two schools—Eglwyswen primary school and Ysgol Gymraeg Melin Gruffydd, both in South Glamorgan.
    Mr. Griffiths: Would the Minister care to visit some schools in Mid-Glamorgan where, as was admitted in the HMI report, because stock is very old, and because of the problems of the mining valleys, replacement and maintenance costs are very high? Will the Minister consider giving Mid-Glamorgan extra funds, given that his own inspectors say that it has a problem in dealing with the stock? Let me cite one example from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell). At Nantyffyllon, the Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg TyDerwen school needed £150,000 to repair its boundary walls. Will the Minister provide extra money for the councils?
    Mr. Roberts: We have increased capital allocations for local authorities, but the hon. Gentleman will know that we cannot direct the authorities to spend that capital on schools. It is for the local authorities to decide what their priorities are, but, like the hon. Gentleman, I should certainly like them to spend more of their capital allocations on school buildings.

    Health Authorities
    Mr. Barry Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he proposes to make extra funds available to the health authorities of Wales; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Grist: My right hon. Friend hopes to announce additional funding to meet the estimated costs of the
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    nurses clinical regrading exercise in the next few days. This will result in an expected real terms increase in nurses pay of more than 40 per cent. since 1979.
    Mr. Jones: Can the Minister say whether the consultants' report on whether north Walian people should have a satellite radiotherapy cancer treatment centre will appear in the near future? Will he bear in mind that many north Walian people have to undertake long journeys to Manchester and Liverpool for cancer treatment? No doubt the Minister will agree that if such journeys can occasionally be shortened a great deal of good will be done. We need a satellite centre at least in north Wales.
    Mr. Grist: I take the hon. Gentleman's point. We are carrying out the investigation as fast as we can. We certainly have no desire to hold it up.
    Mr. Raffan: Is the Welsh Office yet in a position to provide brokerage funding to Clwyd health authority so that phase 2 of Glan Clwyd hospital—the scheme to relocate obstetric, gynaecology and special care baby services at the hospital—can be brought forward to the next financial year?
    Mr. Grist: No. I cannot give my hon. Friend that undertaking.

    Valleys Initiative
    Mr. Livsey: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many additional houses will be built as a result of his Valleys initiative.
    Mr. Peter Walker: During the three years of the Valleys programme I expect 10,000 new homes to be built and 32,000 to be improved.
    Mr. Livsey: Will the Secretary of State take account of what has been said this afternoon about local people being able to live in their own communities, particularly in the valleys, where there has been a great increase in the number of people who have come in, a great rise in house prices and a great scarcity of houses to rent? Will the right hon. Gentleman invoke planning powers so that local authorities there can cater specifically for local people?
    Mr. Walker: There are several ways in which local authorities can and do assist with housing local people, and I am sure that they will continue to do that. The work of the new Housing Corporation, under its excellent new chairman and board, will do the same. The figures that I have just given—10,000 new homes and 32,000 properties to be improved—represent a fairly substantial programme.

  CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

    Ordination of Women
    Mr. Harry Greenway: To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what total sum he now estimates will be required to compensate clergymen and bishops expected to leave their orders in the event of the ordination of women; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Michael Alison (Second Church Estates Commissioner, Representing Church Commissioners): The estimated cost per 100 men of financial provision under the proposed legislation, as at present drafted, is some £3 million spread over five years. The legislation will shortly be considered by a revision committee of the General Synod. It is too early to make any realistic estimate of how many bishops and clergy might ultimately resign.
    Mr. Greenway: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the suggested compensation of £30,000 per head is very low for a young man early in his orders? Does he also agree that respect for the law is basic to the Christian faith? Does he therefore agree that back-door women priests and their congregations who break the law on premises run or owned by the Church Commissioners are simply waiting for the law to be changed?
    Mr. Alison: The costs of compensation, to which I have referred, are estimates and remain subject to further revision, although there is a limit to what the Church of England and the commissioners could afford in this context. It is unlawful for a woman priest to minister the sacraments in a Church of England building, and I understand that any who do so may be prosecuted under canon law, which has the force of statute law.
    Mr. Frank Field: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the aim is to get the reform through in such a way that people do not wish to leave the Church? In that respect, are not the guarantees that were first outlined crucial to reassuring people who are hesitant about the change? Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore deplore the House of Bishops' move in its latest report to undermine some of those guarantees?
    Mr. Alison: I take careful note of what the hon. Gentleman has said. I believe that the provisions made for payments of the type under discussion are constructive and reasonable, although the legislation that underpins them is still far from close to enactment, and there has to be a further election to the General Synod before the Measure can be introduced in this House.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Has the Church got this round the wrong way? Is it not the duty of those who want a different sort of Church to leave it, not to drive out those who wish it to stay as it is?
    Mr. Alison: That is a general observation which, as my hon. Friend has stated it, has some validity. There is, however, a lot to be said for staying inside an institution which one wishes to change and trying to reform it in the direction that one prefers.
    Mr. Tony Banks: The hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) spoke about breaking the law. If ecclesiastical law is changed and women priests are ordained so that they can minister the Communion, by what right should any reactionary elements in the Church expect to receive any compensation? Surely they should obey the law. I do not see why these reactionary old buggers should expect anything.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member will withdraw that remark.
    Mr. Banks: These reactionary people should not expect anything.
    Mr. Alison: The hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to demonstrate whether he is reactionary or progressive when the Measure comes before the House. He will understand that, although the law may be legally enacted in the House, it can be considered oppressive by some people. For them, in those circumstances, to resign and be offered ex-gratia compensation by their fellow Christians in the Church of England is a perfectly wholesome and acceptable alternative.
    Mr. Harris: Does my right hon. Friend agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) that the aim in making such a big change, if it comes about, must be to ensure that as few people as possible leave the Church and thereby keep the compensation down? With that aim in mind, will he heartily endorse the views of the Archbishop of York at the weekend, which are certainly supported by many of us who wish to see the ordination of women priests; and does he agree that the events in London at the weekend certainly did not help the situation?
    Mr. Alison: I agree with my hon. Friend. He will have noted that the lady or ladies concerned did not seek to minister in a consecrated church. Had they done so, they would have been liable to prosecution. I am sure that the Archbishop of York's views on trying to keep within the law until the law is changed must be the right and proper advice.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Church Commissioners will need all the resources that they can get, including diocesan quotas, not only for this reason, but for many others? If they pursue a policy of irritating parishioners by selling off local parsonages adjacent to churches so that the churches have to be locked to prevent vandalism, people will not support the church financially, diocesan quotas will not be paid and they will not have the resources for this or any other purpose.
    Mr. Alison: My hon. Friend has referred to the practice of selling old vicarages and parsonage residences adjacent to churches, which obviously bears upon some local phenomonen which is worrying him. I should be obliged if he would let me have details, which I shall certainly look at. He will understand that the resources of the Church Commissioners, to which he referred, depend to some extent on rationalising their property ownership and selling off old large houses so that modern vicarages can be constructed in their place.

    Stipends and Pensions
    Mr. Chapman: To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the amount and proportion of the commissioners' expenditure allocated to clergy stipends and pensions in the latest year for which figures are available.
    Mr. Alison: In 1987 the commissioners spent £38·7 million on stipends and £39 million on pensions. This was 66 per cent. of their investment income.
    Mr. Chapman: I welcome the fact that two thirds of the commissioners' income is allocated to clergy stipends and pensions, but does my right hon. Friend agree that it is essential to encourage the commissioners to maximise the

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    interest that they can receive on their assets? Does he also agree that they are doing that very successfully and that they now have a very healthy stake in capitalism?
    Mr. Alison: Yes. The commissioners' handling of their investment portfolio is exemplary and way ahead of the field in yield for their various investments. One principal beneficiary of that judicious and sound investment policy is the very reasonable level of clergy pensions which are now paid, with prospects of yet further improvements to come.
    Mr. Skinner: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that earlier this year at the Union of Democratic Mineworkers annual conference at Weymouth it was reported that some churchmen, who said that their stipends were too low, had joined the bosses' union—the UDM? At that conference, there were four clergymen and a rabbi. Led by one from the old ASTMS, they said that they were looking for industrial action, but Roy Lynk said, "We are not having any of that here." What other advice has the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Alison: In view of the level of clergy stipends and pensions, I could suggest that Mr. Arthur Scargill or even Mr. Clive Jenkins might seek ordination in the Church of England.

  WALES

    Welsh Language Board
    Mr. John: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to receive the first report from the new Welsh Language Board.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. Wyn Roberts): The Welsh Language Board will pass on its findings to my right hon. Friend as they emerge.
    Mr. John: Given the discussions on the new Welsh Language Act and the wide consensus on what it should contain, will the Secretary of State place a six-month limit on the time in which the Welsh Language Board will report? Would it not be regarded as offensive if it were to continue indefinitely when the matters have already been discussed?
    Mr. Roberts: I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman. He will know that the board is the outcome of a recommendation made by myself as head of a ministerial group which looked into the problem of legislation in connection with the language as well as other matters. As a result of that, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set up the board. The board, in turn, has set up specialist sub-committees to look into different areas and issues related to the promotion and development of the language. One of the sub-committees, under the chairmanship of Winston Roddick QC, is looking at the legislative aspect.

    Older Housing
    Mrs. Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what fresh proposals he has to tackle the problems of older housing in Wales; and what new resources are available.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ian Grist): We are continuing to encourage local
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    authorities to adopt a strategic approach to housing renewal. I am pleased to say that the Cynon Valley borough council is increasingly doing so and is making good use of the sharply increased resources we have made available to it.
    Mrs. Clwyd: Is the Minister aware that the Cynon Valley has some of the worst housing in Britain and that it will cost about £64 million to bring housing up to modern levels? Is he further aware that at the present level of Government investment in housing it will take until at least the year 2,000 before the people in the Cynon Valley can live in decent housing? Why are Welsh Office Ministers condemning the people of the Cynon Valley to live in continuing deprivation and bad housing?
    Mr. Grist: It is extraordinary. In past years I have heard the hon. Lady ask similar questions, only to have it explained that her council was not spending the funds available to it on housing. Now that authority has been given as many resources as it considers it can spend during the current financial year. I do not think that we can do much more.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS

    European Directives
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make it his policy to ensure that the directives recommended for debate by the Select Committee on European Legislation are debated within a reasonable period; and if he will make a statement.
    The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Wakeham): Yes, Sir. This remains our objective.
    Mr. Taylor: Does my right hon. Friend agree that a major constitution worry is that most of the regulations, directives, letters and proposals from the EC are never discussed by Parliament? Is he aware that in the most recent report of the Select Committee there were 100 such documents which had been recommended for debate but for which time had not been found? Is he further aware that in addition we have a major problem in that some of the vital directives, such as that on mergers and the six documents on health and safety, have not been discussed at all? Would my right hon. Friend be willing to look at the issue to see whether there is some way in which we could more successfully handle parliamentary matters from the Common Market so that the measures affecting our constituents are properly discussed and not simply referred to briefly at 11.30 at night?
    Mr. Wakeham: I recognise my hon. Friend's interest and concern in this matter. I do not think that the figures are quite as he said. As I understand it, 88 documents have not yet been debated. Of those, 38 are not at present under active consideration and nine are awaiting further documents. Of the remaining 41, several have been linked by the Select Committee and it is expected that they will require 20 debates. I am doing my best to arrange those. The position on mergers is that the documents recommended for debate early last year and before have been overtaken by a new document entitled "Control of concentrations between undertakings", No. 5963/88, which was considered by the Committee last week and

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    recommended for debate. The Committee has now withdrawn its recommendation for debate on the earlier documents. To have debated the earlier documents would not have been the most effective use of the House's valuable time. My right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will now be considering the most appropriate time for debate on the new document.
    Mr. Aitken: As the cascade of controversial and unpopular EC directives increasingly threatens our sovereignty, with even British institutions such as the pound, the ounce, the mile and the pint in danger of being swept away, surely my right hon. Friend recognises the importance of effective and vigilant parliamentary machinery to stop 1992 from becoming a 1066. Will he consider beefing up the Select Committee on European Legislation to give it proper funding, more Sub-Committees and specialist advisers and, above all, regular debates in the House in prime time?
    Mr. Wakeham: It is difficult to arrange debates in prime time as my hon. Friend would like, because there are many other issues that we must debate. I should have thought that the recent speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would be of some comfort to my hon. Friend. The Select Committee on European Legislation already has wide-ranging powers to consider documents published for submission to the Council of Ministers or the European Council and to take evidence as appropriate. It is open to the Committee to examine the issues involved more widely within its terms of reference. I advise a cautious approach to changing its terms of reference at this stage, which includes the need to look carefully at the effect of our scrutiny procedures brought about by the Single European Act.

    Palace of Westminster (Facilities)
    Mr. Butler: To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps to initiate an inquiry into what extra facilities might be desirable in the Palace of Westminster.
    Mr. Wakeham: I am pleased to be able to inform my hon. Friend that the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee of the Services Committee passed a resolution on 25 July this year to initiate an exercise, in consultation with the New Building Sub-Committee, to prepare a practical set of proposals to improve hon. Members' amenities and facilities. I am sure that, in the preparation of these proposals, right hon. and hon. Members' views will be taken into account.
    Mr. Butler: I welcome my right hon. Friend's announcement, but will hon. Members be consulted individually by questionnaire on this matter?
    Mr. Wakeham: That is a matter for the appropriate Committees to consider. I am sure that any views that hon. Members wish to put forward will be considered.
    Mr. Dobson: Will the Leader of the House say when the Property Services Agency report on the replacement of the annunciator system will finally get off the Minister's desk so that hon. Members can see it? It is getting on for two years since it was asked to produce a report. If we are to have a modern electronic system, with possible access to
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    Library information, and with information going to offices through the replacement for the annunciator system, it is about time some decisions were taken.
    Mr. Wakeham: The hon. Gentleman has raised this matter with me before, and I shall be in touch with him as soon as I have any news.

    Working Practices
    Mr. Thurnham: To ask the Lord President of the Council what recent representations he has received about working practices in the House; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Wakeham: I have received only one letter about this matter, from my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Thurnham).
    Mr. Thurnham: Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the press reports of last summer making allegations of abuses and inefficiency are properly investigated? Does he think that more privatisation would improve the efficiency of services in the House and reduce abuses?
    Mr. Wakeham: The second part of my hon. Friend's question goes wider than the original question. While there may be validity in the argument, I shall not be drawn on it. The matter concerning my hon. Friend was considered by the Catering Sub-Committee, which reached a conclusion only at its meeting last week. I shall reply to my hon. Friend's letter later this week.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Does not the election of Chairmen of Select Committees constitute a working practice of the House? Is it not quite wrong that the Chairman of a Select Committee—and indeed the Chairman of the Select Committee on Selection—should be directors of or consultants to lobbying companies? Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand the unease that this has created throughout the lobbying and public relations industry? What will be done about it? Will it be stopped, and will the right hon. Gentleman recommend that it be stopped?
    Mr. Wakeham: The membership of Select Committees is for the Selection Committee. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that if he has any serious allegations to make, there is a proper way of doing so to the Select Committee on Members' Interests. I suggest that he does that, and he should know better.

    Members' Passes
    Mr. Nicholas Bennett: To ask the Lord President of the Council what is the total number of passes issued to hon. Members in respect of their personal staff; what was the figure for 1979; and how many hon. Members have two, three, four, five or more passes.
    Mr. Wakeham: The latest Pass Office figures show that a total of 1,186 photo-identity passes are on issue to hon. Members' personal staff. I regret that comparable figures for 1979 are not available. The latest figures show that 149 hon. Members employ two photo-pass holders, 75 hon. Members employ three photo-pass holders, 43 hon. Members employ four photo-pass holders and 38 hon. Members employ five or more photo-pass holders.
    Mr. Bennett: Is it not astonishing that 38 hon. Members need five or more staff to assist them in their role as hon. Members? Will my right hon. Friend consider putting a limit on the number of passes issued to individual hon. Members and draw to their attention the fact that perhaps one of the most effective Back Benchers this century—the right hon. J. Enoch Powell—was able to do his own research?
    Mr. Wakeham: My hon. Friend is right. The Services Committee's second report, "Access to the Precincts of the House," which was published in July, is on this subject. I intend that it should be debated in the near future.

    Westminster Hall
    Mr. Harry Greenway: To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any plans to seek to widen the use made of Westminster Hall; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Wakeham: No, Sir. Any proposal to widen the use of Westminster Hall would require the agreement of the Lord Great Chamberlain, the Lord Chancellor and Mr. Speaker, in whom responsibility is vested for the use to which the Hall may be put.
    Mr. Greenway: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is wrong for the large and spacious Westminster Hall to be unused for such long periods? Will he get together with the parties to whom he has referred and consider whether a swimming pool can be put in there to improve the fitness of Members—and perhaps a few could be thrown in at the deep end?
    Mr. Wakeham: I cannot agree with my hon. Friend. In fact, I do not think that I can better the answer that was given by my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Shropshire, North (Mr. Biffen), who said:
    "I think that one of the great attractions of Westminster hall is how little it is used."—[Official Report, 19 February 1987; Vol. 110, c. 1082.]

Orders of the Day

  Rate Support Grants Bill
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.30 pm
  The Minister for Housing and Planning (Mr. John Selwyn Gummer): I beg to move, That the Bill he now read a Second time.
  The Bill provides the basis for an orderly transition from the existing system of grants to the new system which will operate from April 1990.
  Amongst all the arguments about the replacement of domestic rates and the competing alternative, the important role of the rate support grant has received relatively little attention. The Bill gives us the opportunity to focus on that grant system which does, after all, account for about half of local authorities' expenditure. The decision in principle has been made. Parliament passed the Local Government Finance Act in July. That Act abolished rate support grant after next year and provided for the introduction of a new grant system, which is intended to be simpler and more accountable than the old. One particular feature is that, unlike the present system, the amount of grant paid to each authority will not depend on its expenditure. It will depend only on the assessed need of each area, taking account of the local characteristics.
  My problem is that we call that the revenue support grant, so we move from RSG to RSG. I intend to call it the needs grant so that at least I can understand about which one we are talking. I hope that the Opposition will not see anything difficult in that. [Interruption.] We are dealing with a matter which is not the easiest in the world. I was told by one civil servant when I moved from the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to the Department of the Environment that, as I appeared to have understood the common agricultural policy, I would have done at least the warm-up for trying to understand the rate support grant.
  Under both Governments there has been a tendency throughout the country to believe that this is a matter to be left to the experts—those who are forced to understand RSG rather than those who choose to do so. I cannot believe that that is a sensible way to run local government or a proper way to arrange for taxation. I made a motto, in which I have continued to believe, that there should he no taxation without comprehension. It is important that we at least try to make this system as satisfactory as possible. One advantage of this system is that it has been widely welcomed by local authorities of differing political persuasions. I do not think that the concept of moving from this direction is a subject of controversy on either side of the House.
  Mr. Dafydd Wigley: Although councillors of all political complexions would welcome simplification—this is recognised by both sides of the House—councillors in many areas are unhappy that the Government are basing their change on the estimated figures as opposed to the final outturn figures for 1987–88. In many instances, the final outturn figures are lower than the estimates, because of slippage and so on. Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that any money that is clawed back by the Government as a result of those
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  differences will be recycled, that local authorities will not lose in total and that this money may be available in the following financial year?
  Mr. Gummer: I think that that point will be covered as I proceed. I was referring to the new system, not to the interim system proposed in the Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to close down the old system before moving to the new. My remarks about simplicity related to the new system. Today's discussion, however, centres on whether the interim system in the Bill is the best way to move from the old system to the new. The hon. Gentleman has raised a reasonable point. That concern is shared by many authorities of differing political persuasions and I shall try to cover it when dealing with the new system.
  If we continue with a system that is understood by so few, it is entirely understandable that people throughout the country will be unable to make a proper assessment of the efficacy of their local authorities. It is hard to decide whether a local authority is doing its job properly if one does not understand such a major element as the contribution made by the Government, and hence by the taxpayer, in terms of grant.
  Mr. Harry Greenway: My constituents have been asking about possible arrangements between local authorities under the new system in terms of moving housing expenditure around. There is a proposal in Ealing for houses to be built with payment by that local authority for three years less a day, then to move to Brent authority, then to Hounslow and then to yet another Labour-controlled authority. That is highly confusing and unsatisfactory for my constituents. Will the Bill do anything about that?
  Mr. Gummer: The Bill is designed specifically to deal with the change from the present system to the new system. We shall be introducing a further Bill to deal with capital and the kind of arrangement to which my hon. Friend refers will be important in that context. That legislation will provide for the control of capital expenditure and for local aithorities to have a wider discretion in the choices that they make. However, that is really a matter for the next Bill in the new Session of Parliament as it relates to the new system rather than to the transitional arrangements under consideration today.
  The transitional arrangements have been produced for two basic reasons. The first is certainty. If we allowed the old system simply to run into the buffers of the new, it would be a long time before anyone knew the final outturn of the last year of the old system. Next spring, for instance, we shall be making the final grant adjustments for 1985–86, so if we allowed the old system to continue to the end of its present run without any change we should be discussing the old system well after the new system had come into operation. Local authorities would thus not know where they stood. I am pleased to say that for that reason most authorities have recognised that special arrangements need to be made. I do not think that there is any disagreement on the principle that it is a good idea to have a stocktaking end to the old system. The question is whether the Bill constitutes the best way to do this. I am happy to accept that views will differ on that, but I hope that there is no disagreement on the principle that we should bring the old system to a close before beginning the new so that people will know where they stand.
  Mr. Tony Banks: I welcome the Minister to his new box of nails. The new system is uacceptable to many hon. Members. As a result of the cut-off in the Bill, some authorities will lose. Will there be any flexibility to allow the Government to compensate authorities which can show that they have lost badly under the new provisions?
  Mr. Gummer: On the hon. Gentleman's second point, if he remains in the Chamber for the debate I am sure that he will follow my argument. I am certainly facing that issue, not ignoring it. Although some hon. Members may not like the new system, the fact is that the House has introduced it and it will operate. It would be foolish to re-argue something on which we have already agreed. Perhaps in this debate at least we can argue the issues raised by the Bill rather than a Bill that we have already discussed. I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a different view from me on the community charge, which is quite reasonable. He is in favour of having two taxes. However, we have made our decision, and we must stick to that and get on with discussing this Bill.
  Mr. Tony Marlow: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House—it has always been a bit of a mystery to many of us—how those needs will be calculated? In particular, can he tell us why needs seem to be rather greater in Labour local authority areas than in Conservative local authority areas? A formula that gives more money to those with the greatest need is actually a formula for moving money from Conservative parts of the country to those maladministered parts that are appallingly run by the Labour party.
  Mr. Gummer: That was true of the previous system where the needs element was mixed up with the expenditure element. An historically high-spending local authority would, even though its needs may have been similar to another sensibly run authority, obtain greater grant because of the attraction arrangements for expenditure. That will not happen under the new system because the expenditure level is no longer part of the argument, which will now be based entirely upon needs. They are already assessed under a complicated system with many different indices, many of them hardly fought over by different branches of local authority representation. We hope that there will be a much simpler and clearer method under the new system. We shall consult the local authorities, which will no doubt put their various points to us. I think that the House will be content with some of our suggestions because they take into account the real needs of communities. Of course, those real needs do not always coincide with the supposed needs of those elected to represent the communities. It is necessary to try to meet the real needs.
  Mr. Alun Michael: I understand the Minister to be saying that it is a good principle for local authorities to operate on a basis of certainty and to know what will happen as a result of particular actions. Does he accept that many local authorities, especially Cardiff city council and South Glamorgan county council, acted on the basis of statements to the House by Ministers and, as a result, found that a retrospective decision took £3·5 million away from them? Without looking at the faults of the past, on which the Minister may have a reasonable case, and
  670
  without looking to the future, which is another matter, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there are flaws in the Bill because it does not fill exactly the criteria that he has stated in respect of 1987–88?
  Mr. Gummer: I hope that when I come to discuss those matters the hon. Gentleman will think my case reasonable. I recognise that Cardiff may not wholeheartedly agree with it—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman knows that I am on a raw point when he discusses whether Cardiff is reasonable. There is a real problem because, wherever the stocktaking line is drawn, people will say, "If only you pushed it another few weeks, or if only you would take into account this, that and the other, it would be much fairer." Whatever we do, people will always say that—
  Mr. Irvine Patnick: Will my right hon. Friend give away?
  Mr. Gummer: I must continue or we shall not make progress. I will give way to my hon. Friend later.
  Another reason why it is important to do this is not just to create certainty, but it is said that, if local authorities knew that whatever they did this year would not attract penalty or pay-back next year, they would be prepared to go in for creative accounting techniques, which they would not otherwise do. I am sure that the House will understand that the matter does not involve all local authorities, or a majority of local authorities, but it is sufficiently important for it to be concerned with it.
  If one can reduce one's total expenditure in the current year under consideration and thereby attract extra grant, that is OK if the reduction of the current expenditure is real; but, if it is not real, one will attract extra grant to which one is not entitled. I understand that many Opposition Members in particular would say that there should be more money for local authorities, that money should be shared out more generously and that, therefore, it is not unreasonable for them to grab what they can. That argument is not acceptable, because, in the end, all Governments must be responsible for local authorities' total spending, both capital and revenue. Therefore, if, as a matter of economic policy, the Government decide that we should not spend—
  Dr. John Cunningham: Why?
  Mr. Gummer: If the hon. Gentleman were in office, which is unlikely to happen, he would have to do the same. Anybody running a sensible economic policy would have to take into account local authority spending.
  Dr. Cunningham: Garbage.
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman says "Garbage". That is a good reason for the people of Britain to recognise that to elect a Government who do not think that it is important to restrict and control total public sector spending means that they would elect a Government who do not think that the conquest of inflation is important. It means also that they would elect a Government who would get us into precisely the same problems as we had before.
  Dr. Cunningham: The Minister is right to say that any Government would want rigorously to control their share of local government finance—what is provided through

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  the Exchequer and the taxpayer. Will he tell us the macro-economic arguments for controlling local authorities' expenditure from their own resources?
  Mr. Gummer: Certainly. If the hon. Gentleman does not recognise that the money that is spent by the public sector is different from that which is available for enterprise in the private sector, he does not realise why Britain is now growing so much faster and why we are providing the jobs that we are providing. If the hon. Gentleman says that we should allow local authorities or national authorities to spend money that should be for the expansion of other aspects of the economy, he has not learnt anything since his party's defeat in 1979. That defeat will continue until that basic economic fact is learnt.
  We have to face the problem because some local authorities have decided to do certain things that the House as a whole would agree to be unacceptable. Let me give one example. A certain local authority decides to sell off to City institutions the future receipts from its sales of council housing. It happens to be a local authority that does not believe in selling council houses, but, on this occasion, it decides to do so. Let us suppose that it raises £20 million. It would then be able to put that £20 million into the bank and take the interest from it, and thereby—
  Mr. Tony Banks: What is wrong with that?
  Mr. Gummer: I shall explain to the hon. Gentleman what is wrong with that. It would then pay that money back in four or five years. In the meantime, it would have technically reduced its own spending to attract to itself what might have been £3 million of extra grant.
  Mr. Tony Banks: What is wrong with that?
  Mr. Gummer: I shall tell the hon. Gentleman what is wrong with that. It would attract £3 million of general taxpayers' money to which it was not entitled and which could have been spent on the National Health Service, for example. It would mean that that local authority had tried to cheat on the system and remove from others who needed it money to which it was not entitled. Of course, as far as the ratepayer is concerned, it would be perfectly reasonable to do that if it were smoothing out spending year on year, but it would be reasonable only if the person who paid the bill at the end was the same person who incurred it at the beginning. If a local authority decides to shift £3 million of its spending from itself, as it were, to the general taxpayer, the authority is seeking to use the system to its advantage and to ignore the spirit of the system that we operate.
  Historically, local authorities would not have acted in this way. They would have eschewed that obvious cheating of the system. They would have said, "That would not be acceptable in a public authority." There are many authorities, controlled either by the Labour or the Conservative parties, or the alliance, that would not take such a step. The idea of not closing the gap for the authorities that would do what most would consider to be wrong would be unacceptable. Those who would treat the public purse in such a cavalier manner must not be allowed to get away with it when many other authorities of similar political persuasion would not dream of acting in such a way. That is why we think it necessary to close the loophole.
  Mr. Tony Banks: I know that the Minister is new to his present position, but surely he must appreciate that the creative accounting, as it is called, in which a number of authorities get themselves involved, is not done because authorities want to take such a course. They do it because the penalties and the regime imposed upon them from Marsham street are such that, if they want to defend jobs and services in their area, perforce they have to do this sort of thing. The Minister is wrong to suggest that they are cheats. If authorities have problems, they have a duty to deal with them in the best way that they can. They go in for so-called creative accounting to mitigate the effect of Government policies upon their spending programmes.
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with that. The Government had to make these arrangements because local authorities were precepting upon the taxpayer to pay inflated staffs, to run services which were not properly run or costed, and to implement many arrangements that should not have been paid for by the taxpayer. If the hon. Gentleman runs through some of the services that are provided by the authority from which he draws his representation, he will come across many items that could be cut. The resultant savings could be spent on the real needs of his area of London.
  Mr. Tony Banks: Name them.
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman chooses to shout at me. Does he think, for example, that the plethora of committees that deal with race, women's issues, gay issues and the rest are doing any good for women, racial minorities or gay people? They do much to delay matters and to create the need for greater expenditure. The money that they cause to be spent could be much better spent in the deprived area of the hon. Gentleman's borough. Those of us who live in boroughs that act in that way and that treat the ratepayers in that way—I have experience of this, as I live in Ealing—understand that large sums could be properly spent if only money were not spent unnecessarily.
  We are discussing—the hon. Member for Newham North-West (Mr. Banks) has sought to discuss something else—whether we should have a system which enables local authorities to determine what national spending should be, or whether we should have a system whereby the Government determine national spending and individual local authorities abide by the rules that apply to the sharing out. I think that it would be wrong if individual local authorities were in a position to buck the rules. It would be wrong if authorities could adopt creative accounting and thereby make themselves better off at the taxpayers' cost while other authorities which behaved properly, obeyed the rules and kept to the spirit of them—authorities controlled by whatever party—found themselves less well off.
  Mr. Frank Haynes: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Gummer: No, I shall not.
  Mr. Haynes: Why not?
  Mr. Gummer: I would be delighted to give way to the hon. Gentleman, but he will accept that I have already given way many times. Therefore, I shall continue with my speech.
  Mr. Haynes: Go on, give way.
  Mr. Gummer: The House will recognise—
  Mr. Haynes: Why is the Minister frightened?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure that the Minister is not frightened, and he is not giving way.
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman and I have crossed swords on many occasions in the past.
  Mr. Haynes: I want to cross swords again.
  Mr. Gummer: I shall be happy to give the hon. Gentleman an opportunity later in my speech to cross swords with me again. For the moment I must get on with the argument.
  There is another argument that we must face. When we come to the end of one system and move to a new one, there is an additional encouragement for people to bend the rules. Normally, when creative accounting is carried out in one year, it must be paid for the following year. If the new system is enforced and there is no penalty for creative accounting in the first year, a particular local authority will receive grant at the taxpayers' expense. The authority will never have to pay the price. Therefore, it is necessary to introduce this legislation.
  We could have taken a different route and I must tell Opposition Members that there is a different route. We could have said that we expected local authorities to behave in that way and that we expected them to operate on the edge of the law. Therefore, we could have cut back the settlement to take that into account. Had we done that, we would have destroyed our credibility with local authorities. That would have meant that we expected all authorities to behave like a small minority whose behaviour we have always attacked. It would also have meant that some authorities, unable or unwilling to behave in that way, would have been extremely harshly penalised by the very tough settlement which would have followed. I do not believe that that would have been a proper way to deal with the matter.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Gummer: I am certain that the hon. Gentleman will find an opportunity to intervene later.
  We decided to introduce arrangements so that future changes in total expenditure would not affect grant entitlements. We announced that in July along with the initial proposals for next year's RSG settlements in England and Wales so that authorities could be clear on what basis the settlement was to operate. We have followed that up quickly with the legislation so that authorities will have certainty about those issues before they make their budgets for 1989–90.
  The Bill provides that grant for the remaining years of the old system—in practice, that means 1985–86 to 1989–90 —should be based on the spending figures available to us before the new arrangements were announced on 7 July. That is our stocktaking date. Any new information received after that date will not be taken into account.
  Mr. Tony Banks: Why?
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman asks why. If it was an open-ended date, it would allow precisely the kind of changes in retrospect about which I have spoken. Local authorities, this year and in successive years, going back as they can now over years, could change their total
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  expenditure figures because the books are not closed. They could change the figures, not in reality—it would not mean that they had spent less—but merely through creative accounting. That must mean that less money would be available for spending in other areas even if that is not seen as a means of taking less in taxation. There would be less available for spending in other areas if local authorities acted in that way. That clearly would be unfair.
  Mr. Michael: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Gummer: I will give way in a moment.
  I will give the hon. Member for Newham, North-West another reason. I thought I had said before that the authorities would not know where they were for years to come because the final settlement and closure of the books would go on year after year as it does today.
  Clause 1 deals with grant calculations for the years 1985–86 to 1988–89 in England and 1986–87 to 1988–89 in Wales. Wales has caught up a little on us and has already closed 1985–86. The clause provides that, instead of final outturn total expenditure, we should use an expenditure figure, which we will call the relevant amount, derived from the rules set out. The figures that we will use are the figures provided by local authorities in the official forms which arrive before 7 July.
  That is already a very generous date. The authorities were supposed to produce figures before the end of March. That provides a pretty large gap. Each of the figures is signed by the chief financial officer as the best figure available. Therefore, we know that they are official figures on the official form. All local authorities, bar two, have provided us with the figures and I will consider the exceptions shortly.
  Those two authorities were telephoned and were asked again and again to produce their figures by the required date. Unfortunately, they have not done so. I do not imagine that any right hon. Member would object to the argument that people ought to fulfil their obligations under the law. It is the law that local authorities should make such returns, and therefore we have had to calculate the figures in that way.
  The rules are designed to provide an unambiguous figure for every authority and for every year. We have sought all the way along to stick to that stocktaking rule. However carefully Opposition Members may examine the system, they will not be able to suggest that it disadvantages some political parties rather than others. Clearly, different local authorities of different political persuasions would like different dates, because they are all in the position of trying to maximise their advantage. I do not blame them for that, but whatever date one applies, and whatever deadline one imposes, there are bound to be some authorities which fall on one side rather than the other. It seems more sensible to fix on the date that has been decided; it is not unfair, and it is applied equally, right across the board.
  Clause 2 deals only with 1985–86, which was the last year for which expenditure targets were issued. People say to me, "We are surprised that that year is still being dealt with", and certainly that was the first comment that I made as somebody new to the subject. The fact remains that seven local authorities still have not closed their books for 1985–86. One of the great drawbacks of the current system is that we are left lacking right along the line.
  Dr. Cunningham: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House why?
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) must accept that I have stated—I hope it will be thought perfectly honourably—that I am not talking just about systems derived from a Labour Administration but also those produced under a Conservative Government. I shall not argue why that is so. Some of us would say that it is in response to action by authorities that behaved in outrageous ways, while others would not. I did not intend to enter into an argument about why change is required, but it would be foolish not to admit that the present system needs a fundamental overhaul—and that is what we propose.
  Mr. Michael: Is it not reasonable for the Minister to accept that, while trying to improve the system in the way that he mentions, local authorities should be able to depend on statements that have been made by Cabinet Ministers to the House, and that those local authorities that have depended on such statements should not face the risk of having them contradicted retrospectively, as is the case with this Bill?
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Member should accept that in changing from one system to another, one must close off the possibility that people will change their figures retrospectively to gain an advantage at the expense of others. At the same time, if one imposes a fixed date, one must implement it in the same way for everyone. One cannot make exceptions for Cardiff or for Suffolk—and I use those two examples of local authorities of different political persuasions as they affect both the hon. Gentleman and myself. Exactly the same comment has been made to me by the Suffolk authority, saying, "If you change the rules a bit, you will meet the problem that we have." But wherever one draws the line, it must be drawn in the same place for everybody; it is not possible to make exceptions.
  Clause 3 deals with 1989–90. Naturally, for this year we have no information as yet about individual authorities' likely total expenditure. In that respect we were faced with a real problem. If one were to allow the existing system to continue in respect of the current year, it would enable all kinds of creative accounting to take place, because there will never be any bill to pay later. Therefore, it seems reasonable to make a special arrangement for the next year. We have set out a formula for deriving the basic figure upon which each authority's total expenditure is calculated.
  I shall say this very carefully, particularly for the benefit of the hon. Member for Newham, North-West because I believe that it refers specifically to his local authority. For the seven authorities selected for rate capping in 1989–90, their expenditure will be assumed to be equal to their "expenditure limit" announced on 7 July. However, for most authorities the figure is calculated by taking their expenditure in 1988–89 using the rules in schedule 1 and projecting forward. In other words, there is a fixed stocktaking date on 7 July and one then projects that figure forward for the following year, so that there is a transitional period for introducing the new system.
  There will be two adjustments for English authorities. I have told Opposition Members that it would be unfair to make any special arrangements, but I hope that these will be seen as sensible adjustments. First, there will be an
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  adjustment for education authorities because local authorities will no longer be responsible for funding polytechnics after April 1989. Secondly, London boroughs and district councils will incur extra expenditure in preparing for the community charge. Part of those costs will be met by specific grants that have already been announced, but the remaining part will be reflected in the formula for the total expenditure next year, because that will be covered by the normal block grant arrangements. If we had not made that provision, the authorities in question could not have been given extra help and allocation for the community charge. I feel sure that right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House would have found that unacceptable.
  For Welsh authorities, there is an adjustment for the community charge but no adjustment for polytechnics. Additionally, there is one particular adjustment reflecting the transfer of responsibility for public libraries from Gwent county council to Newport district council. All that is done to meet promises that have been made as to future spending.
  Mr. Tony Banks: The Minister probably does not know London very well, but I come from the London borough of Newham. It is a Tory-free zone, with 59 Labour councillors and one representing the SDP—and we are working on that. The Minister ought to understand that Newham is not rate-capped for next year, but the arrangement that he has just announced represents a further unfair burden on rate-capped councils in London.
  Mr. Gummer: I am sorry if I misunderstood the hon. Member for Newham, North-West, but he made several important points about rate capping and I thought it proper to refer to him in that context. I apologise if I was wrong to do so. I thought that the hon. Gentleman had drawn particular attention to the way in which rate capping worked, and I apologise if I misunderstood him.
  The 1988–89 expenditure figures will be increased by a factor that will be set out in the rate support grant report. I am trying very hard to make the system as simple as possible. This is the one area where I have failed to achieve that, but I shall try to describe it as clearly as possible.[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Copeland laughs. I know that he is very comfortable, being in the position that he will never have to assume this responsibility himself. That makes it possible for him to laugh. We must try to make the system acceptable to people, and that means expressing it in language that most of us can understand. I realise that the hon. Member for Copeland is so clever that he has always been able to understand these matters, but others do not.
  The Secretary of State has already proposed that the provision for current expenditure in England for 1989–90 should be an increase of 4·8 per cent. over 1988–89 budgets, after allowing for the polytechnics adjustment. This factor, which is defined in the Bill as the Z factor, will be consistent with 4·8 per cent. but not identical, because of technical adjustments between current and total expenditure.
  I have now described that part of the Bill that I could not find a better way of describing more simply but still accurately. It is important to recognise that we seek to uprate the amount that is based on figures provided by local authorities by a sufficient amount to cover expected extra expenditure by local authorities.

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  Clause 4 deals with consultation. This autumn we shall be making the RSG settlement for 1989–90 and four supplementary reports for earlier years—which shows how much is still on the go—and consultation will take place then. There is a substantial volume of material for local authority associations and individual authorities to consider, and we had to discuss whether it was fair not to start the consultation until the passage of the Bill was completed. If we did that, we would be cramming the consultation period into what we considered far too short a time; on the other hand, if we extended the period, we could not make the RSG announcements early enough for local authorities to take the action that they wished to take. In clause 4 we are taking powers to enable us to start consultation before the Bill receives Royal Assent, as that seemed the better of the two alternatives. I hope that the House agrees.
  About 60 authorities have written arguing that the Bill will result in their receiving less grant for some earlier years than they would otherwise have been entitled to receive. That point was raised by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael). They have argued that the rules that we have set up in the Bill could be modified to allow them to benefit from reductions in expenditure between the time when they made the last return to the Department and 7 July. They have said, "We made our expenditure returns rather early. Cannot we have a supplementary grant between the two dates?" Initially, I thought the proposition not unreasonable, and I am attracted by any suggestion that might make the system fairer.
  Mr. Tony Banks: But …
  Mr. Gummer: I was going to say "but", because I must explain why I decided that 7 July was a better date. If local authorities were able to do that, we would have to try to make a distinction between authorities that had already made such decisions and authorities that were saying that they were about to make them, that they had done so but it had not happened to get through to the right committee at the time, or that they had done so but that no auditing had been done.
  I have come to believe that one cannot make a proper decision: whatever date was decided upon, there would be an argument for some other date. If there is to be a change from one system to another, there is bound to be a "stocktaking" date. Rather than a continual and protracted argument over a long period, with auditors being brought in in an attempt to claim that "this is in" and "this is out", there should be a direct answer. The agony should not be extended.
  Mr. Tony Banksrose—
  Mr. Gummer: I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman a number of times.
  The rules provide that we should take into account only information about total expenditure submitted by local authorities and received by the Secretary of State before 7 July. The timing does not seem unreasonable, and the system is based on what the chief finance officer of each authority said was the best information available. The problem is that sometimes later information would obtain a better result for a local authority, but the only better
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  information that we would hear would be information that obtained a better result. Although information might be more accurate later, if it obtained a worse result we should never hear it.
  The problem is the same with any accounting system. A single date would at least avoid the argument that we would hear everything that was of benefit to a local authority and nothing that was not—even in the case of the same authority—and that an authority would be able to say that this, that and the other had changed the position for its benefit but we would hear nothing of other matters that had been changed to its disadvantage.
  Several Hon. Membersrose—
  Mr. Gummer: I have given way to other hon. Gentlemen, but I have not given way to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) as I promised that I would. I therefore do so now.
  Mr. Peter L. Pike: Does the Minister accept that he is making these decisions because he believes that some local authorities may use the rules to their advantage—rules that I must emphasise were drawn up by the present Government and which they now choose to change? Is it not wrong to penalise local authorities that try to use those rules to the best advantage of their local electors and ratepayers?
  Mr. Gummer: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not defending the concept that I mentioned earlier of selling future receipts from local authority housing sales to a City institution, using the money artificially—in other words, lyingly—to reduce this year's expenditure, and obtaining money from the taxpayer that is never paid back later. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not saying that, because I have great respect for him. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) has not been present for all of the debate, but he is now shouting from a seated position. He has not been here to follow the argument—which has so far been conducted in a perfectly reasonable and rational way. I do not intend to change that simply because the hon. Gentleman has entered the Chamber.
  Mr. Nicholas Bennettrose—
  Mr. Gummer: This really must be the last time that I give way.
  Mr. Bennett: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way, and for explaining so well a Bill that seems as complex as the Schleswig-Holstein question. Can he explain the position of local authorities whose expenditure has increased because their income has fallen, because they are not operating their housing revenue account properly or collecting the rates properly? I am thinking particularly of Brent, where nine Labour councillors owe £11,000 in rates and rent. Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that the taxpayer will not be subsidising the authority?
  Mr. Tony Banks: What about the City of Westminster?
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman must allow me to answer. I have given way to him several times.
  Mr. BanksI was trying to help.
  Mr. Gummer: That is not the answer that I would have given my hon. Friend.

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  One of the sadnesses in local authority finance is that many local authorities that could act to improve the conditions of the people whom they are supposed to represent do not do so but instead blame the Government and the RSG system for faults within their own control. I can give an example from a debate last week. An hon. Member complained that the Government had not yet given permission for the building of council accommodation for the homeless, because it was still in the pipeline. I had to point out that the authority—which was run by the alliance—had thousands of empty properties that could have been taken into account before that stage was reached. His argument was undermined by the authority's failure to do all that could be done locally before whingeing about what the Government were doing.
  I accept that for past years, when final outturn has traditionally been slightly below earlier estimates, authorities in aggregate will receive less grant than would otherwise have been the case. I am not disagreeing with what the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth says, in general as well as in particular. I am making an admission, and I shall admit one or two other things about which I hope that he will be pleased.
  As I have explained, authorities can be certain that there will be no grant left unclaimed next year. There will be no penalties either: that is another aspect that local authorities can take seriously. In the past two years substantial amounts of grant have gone unclaimed authorities' expenditure has been higher than was assumed for the purposes of the settlement. That cannot happen in 1989–90. The amount of grant available for 1989–90 will be 9 per cent.—£1·1 billion—higher than the amount likely to be paid out this year, an increase considerably above the rate of inflation.
  Taken as a whole, the proposals are very fair to local government. It will not be possible for several years—until we have final outturn expenditure for all the years concerned—to work out whether the Bill has resulted in more or less grant being paid than would otherwise have been the case. But it is symptomatic of the fact that we do not expect the Exchequer to gain out of this that we are bringing forward a money Bill so that extra moneys can be spent if necessary.
  Whatever may be the date of the stocktaking, some will benefit from it more than others; they will feel that another date would be better. We have attempted to produce an answer that means that neither taxpayers nor the Treasury are natural gainers from the system. That is not our intention. We are taking powers to ensure that if we are losers we shall be able to pay out the extra money.
  Many people in local government, of all parties, believe that a measure of this kind is necessary. Some favour a different method of reaching the close-down date, but they welcome the certainty that it will provide about grant entitlement. They welcome particularly the fact that it guarantees that the amount of grant available for 1989–90 will be paid in full, and many have been sensible enough to welcome the increase in the total amount of grant that will be paid.
  The Bill has been brought forward in the interests of good and orderly administration. It is designed to protect the Exchequer against the risk of unjustified grant claims resulting from creative accounting, to provide authorities with certainty as they prepare for the new system, and to provide for an orderly close down to the existing system. A change was made imperative by the switch to the new
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  grant system in 1990. The proposals in the Bill are designed to give a clear and unambiguous set of rules for achieving these objectives. It defines the position so that both local authorities and the Secretary of State know exactly where they stand.
  On that basis, I hope that we shall be able to proceed sensibly and reasonably to the new, much fairer system of local government finance. It will enable local government from year to year to become much more accountable and much more able to see where it stands. It would not be possible sensibly to introduce that system if there were not a measure such as this. I hope that the House will accept that this is a sensible Bill and that it will give certainty to local authorities that this system of local government finance will be much simpler to understand, much fairer to all and much more local in its implementation.
  Mr. Eric S. Heller: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for delaying the start of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), but it is not true for the Minister to say that I was not here for his speech. I missed only five minutes of it. I am not sorry that I missed those five minutes.
  4.22 pm
  Mr. Jeff Rooker: It is a fair time since the Minister stood up to present the Bill to the House. It has been a constant source of amazement to me over the years that Tory Ministers have come to the House of Commons and spoken such gibberish. The Minister admitted that this is an extremely complicated matter. Nobody denies that the Bill must be given a Second Reading and that there will have to be, albeit briefly, detailed consideration of it. The Bill involves considerable sums of local and central Government expenditure that will affect the citizens of this country.
  When a Bill is introduced in this way, there is inevitably bound to be a blend of half truth, loads of jargon, choice abuse of one's political opponents in local government, and expressions of distaste for local government and local democracy if it does not deliver what the political party in power desires. It is a shabby form of government when such large sums of money are involved. It protects this Minister and other Ministers from having to face the reality and the consequences of their legislation.
  One cannot be certain about the effects of the Bill, because of the number of years involved. Money that local government could reasonably have expected to receive in 1988–89 will be down by £500 million. The Minister referred to the assistance that is to be given to introduce the poll tax, but the so-called extra cash that is to be given for its introduction is not extra cash at all. Some of it is bound to be offset by what local authorities are to lose. A cut to pay for a grant is dishonest. The Government are giving with one hand and taking away with the other, but this is not the first time that that has happened.
  Some local authorities will end up with windfall gains. Others will face unexpected, and in some cases unprecedented, losses. It is all being done in such a rush. We are three weeks away—two weeks if certain authorities in the House have their way—from the end of what will have been the longest Session of this Parliament. I am not surprised by this Government's contempt for the House and its procedures, but that is no reason for hon. Members to acquiesce silently. Why the rush? Why can we not wait

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  until the new Session when the Bill could be properly debated and scrutinised in detail? I accept that we were told in July that the Bill would be pushed through this Session. It could have been published before the summer recess. It is not without precedent for the Government to introduce Bills during the spill-over. They can introduce Bills whenever they like. However, it is not normal for Bills to be introduced during the spill-over.
  I have found—more correctly, I asked and the Library found—just two Bills that have been introduced in the spill-over period during the nearly 15 years that I have served in the House. The first was introduced on 21 October 1975 at 11.56 pm. The Minister then moved the Second Reading of the Cinematographic Films Bill. It was welcomed by the then Opposition in the form of the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby). That Bill was not contested and there was no Division. A Labour Government were in power in 1975. Conservative Ministers thrive on the basis that everything that is wrong today, after 10 years of Tory rule, is the fault of past Labour Governments. One therefore has to take the wise precaution of checking precedents.
  The other Bill was introduced on 28 October 1980. The then Home Secretary introduced the Imprisonment (Temporary Provisions) Bill. Such a measure was urgent because of the industrial action that was being taken by prison officers. The Bill went through all its stages in one day. The Opposition did not divide on Second Reading; nevertheless, they divided on certain amendments to the Bill.
  One of those Bills was not contested and was dealt with as a fill-in late at night. The other Bill was urgently required. This Bill does not fit into either of those categories. There is no earthly reason why this Bill should not be introduced in the new Session. The Bill does not have all-party support. There is no question of the Opposition not dividing the House on Second Reading or in Committee.
  I accept that the Minister could not mention everything during his 50-minute speech, but he concentrated exclusively on local authorities. However, the police—another area of public service—are affected by the Bill. The suggestion that there has been a decline in crime is absolute nonsense. Last year sex crimes and crimes of violence increased by 16 and 17 per cent. respectively. I agree that burglaries went down by 6 per cent., but compared with the position 10 years ago there has been a massive increase in crime, resulting in considerable pressure on police resources.
  The Government are creating a society that is based on greed and on "To hell with tomorrow." [Interruption] Conservative Members do not like to hear it, but that is the reality of the society that the Government are creating. Their policies are leading to violent crime, burglaries, generally loutish behaviour and to the white collar crime that is taking place on the stock exchange. It would be possible for police forces in London, the metropolitan areas and Northumbria to lose £18 million as a direct result of the Bill. Shire county forces will also potentially lose, but, because the figures are subsumed in figures for the county councils as a whole, it is not possible to express that information separately.
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  What greater encouragement can there be to vigilantes to take to the streets than a higher crime rate and a further squeeze on police budgets? In recent days, in my constituency and in London, imported American vigilantes have been attempting to patrol the streets and the London underground. In Birmingham such activities have been supported by at least one Conservative councillor. I read yesterday that in Tyne and Wear, where some neighbourhoods have called in private security firms to patrol their streets, the Northumbria police authority is pressing the Home Office for an extra 500 officers, whereas the Bill potentially cuts the authority's grant by £668,000. I can account for £400,000 of that, which is itemised in detail in complaints that that authority has made as a result of the statement by the Secretary of State in July.
  Other police authorities, such as South Yorkshire, will be affected. I am not talking about local government or local councils. As far as I know, the police authorities have not been accused of ripping off the system by creative accounting. Nevertheless, they stand to lose considerable sums. The West Midlands authority has made a request for a further 350 officers, which would add about 2p to the rate precept. The Bill cuts £1·8 million from the expected grant entitlement of the West Midlands police authority.
  It is no wonder that no Minister has yet moved to control the vigilante patrols or the private security firms in Washington. It is no wonder that Ministers have not taken firm action to control the foreigners who encourage people to set up private amateur vigilante patrols on our streets. If there is to be more of a squeeze on the police budget, the obvious way out is to privatise the service. It is the thin end of the wedge. Such a development is dishonest and dishonourable, and if the Government cannot see that it is dangerous now, they will never see it.
  Why are the police authorities covered by the Bill? Why will the police authorities potentially lose such substantial sums? I have cited the West Midlands. The Metropolitan police authority stands to lose £11·5 million in grant entitlement. Greater Manchester stands to lose £1·7 million, West Yorkshire just over £1 million, and Merseyside and South Yorkshire about £750,000 each. Someone must give us some answers about a side effect of the Bill to which the Minister did not once refer.
  Mr. John Redwood: I find the hon. Gentleman's criticism surprising, given that the Government have allowed record numbers of policemen to be recruited and appointed, and given also that they have voted money for record pay settlements, which the police deserve. Given the hon. Gentleman's concern and respect for law and order, what does he have to say to those Labour Members and those members of the Labour party in Scotland who have urged people not to pay the community charge, whose implementation has been duly approved by the Parliament of the United Kingdom on a majority vote?
  Mr. Rooker: That has nothing whatever to do with the police, and anyway that is not Labour party policy.
  Mr. Heffer: I entirely agree with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker). The case that he is making is first class. Is he aware that a Tory Member who once lived in a city in the United States of America—in Miami, I think—said that the whole area was controlled by the Mafia? There was no local petty crime and residents paid a certain amount to

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  the Mafia. If anybody committed a petty crime he was quickly seen off, no doubt with leaded boots. Is that the sort of thing that we want in this country?
  Mr. Rooker: My hon. Friend is right. So far, no Minister has discouraged or expressed much concern about such activities. Everyone must know that vigilante patrols, however well organised, are nothing more than large-scale corruption-protection rackets by which money is taken from people who pay their taxes and who should be getting a proper service from a properly trained police force. That is what people want. They certainly do not want encouragement to be given to the setting up of vigilante patrols. The potential effect of the Bill on the police and the police budget must be made clear and the case answered.
  The Minister went out of his way to imply that local authorities of different political complexions would be covered by the Bill. That is absolutely right. Under the Bill, because of the legitimisation of what is technically known as the hold-back system, £500 million or thereabouts of expected grant entitlement may not be paid. According to our best estimates, Conservative-controlled authorities will obtain £134 million less than they had reason to expect. For Labour-controlled authorities the amount will be £157 million; for authorities controlled by what I shall call the minor party the figure will be £4 million. Those controlled by independents will lose £3 million, and the substantial number of authorities in which there is no overall control will lose £210 million. Those figures are separate from the figures for the joint boards affecting the police and transport. Those figures cut right across the spectrum of public services, and the sum involved is substantial. Conservative Members are bound to receive representations from their local authorities.
  Mr. Kenneth Hind: Is the information that the hon. Gentleman is giving based on his calculations, or on official figures with which he has been provided?
  Mr. Rooker: They are the best estimates available to the Opposition of the traditional grant that would be due in 1988–89, although the Minister relied principally on the figures for 1989–90, and I understand the reason for that. I was referring to the additional grant due in 1988–89 if there were no hold back. When the Secretary of State introduced the rate support grant order he referred to the "generous settlement" of £13·775 million. His remarks were reported at column 465 of Hansard for 9 December 1987. One must exclude from that sum specific and supplementary grants and domestic rate relief, giving the block grant figure of £9·471 million which was referred to in the local government finance order approved by the House. The local authorities could reasonably have expected to receive that money. I shall not go through the whole list of authorities, as hundreds are involved. I have made it clear that authorities controlled by either party and by no party are affected. All sectors of local government will be affected.
  Mr. Gummer: The figure of £500 million could be arrived at only if every local authority reduced its expenditure to the amount that it was allowed. As that has never happened, the hon. Gentleman is postulating a figure much larger than could arise in any known circumstances. Because outturn is usually lower than
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  estimated earlier in the year, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that some grant that might have been paid will not now be paid under the Bill. The hon. Gentleman ought also to consider the amount of grant that will be available.
  Mr. Rooker: I have gone out of my way to talk of the amount that is potentially available to local government when talking about the £500 million —£512 million to be precise. I accept what the Minister said, so I shall meet him half way. Perhaps we can split the difference and settle for £250 million. In that case, all the figures that I shall give henceforth should be halved. I think that local government would accept that. The metropolitan authorities and the shire counties and districts would be prepared to meet the Minister half way and say, "We understand the problems, so let us talk about £250 million coming to local government."
  If the Minister is prepared to meet local government half way, all the figures that I shall give can be halved. For Kent county council, a potential £15·3 million could be available. It heads the list of affected Tory shires. Berkshire could have an extra £10·5 million, Surrey an extra £9·4 million. West Sussex could have an extra £8·2 million. It must be remembered that West Sussex has to share the massive security costs of the Conservative party conference. It and East Sussex must dip into the budget to find £1·4 million for it. Bradford could have an extra £3·7 million. The Prime Minister's local authority of Barnet could have an extra £3·4 million. The Minister's local authority of Suffolk, Coastal could have an extra £112,000. Epping Forest, where there is to be a by-election soon, could have an extra £95,000.
  My own city of Birmingham heads the list of Labour-controlled losers. It could have an extra £13 million. Staffordshire could have an extra £10 million, Nottinghamshire an extra £9·8 million, Manchester an extra £5 million, Sheffield £4·8 million and Coventry £3 million. The tale of what local government had good reason to expect but will not get is pretty sorry.
  Essex county council heads the list of losers where there is no overall control. It could have an extra £18·7 million. Hampshire, where there is due to be a by-election for the European Parliament soon, could have an extra £17·4 million. Lancashire could have an extra £11·5 million, Cheshire £10·9 million and East Sussex, which with West Sussex makes up the Sussex constabulary and must find the £1·4 million needed for security at the Conservative party conference, stands to lose £8 million. Warwickshire could have an extra £5·5 million.
  Those are substantial sums, which could affect the quality of life and the taxes paid by our constituents. Local authorities are required to deal with and finance many unexpected items for which, with the best will in the world, no budget can cater. I should like to give just one example of that, and I do not apologise for its being from the city of Birmingham.
  In late July the then Secretary of State for Social Services received a letter from Councillor Barton, who chairs the Birmingham social services committee. The letter arose because Birmingham's director of social services had reported to the committee her action in agreeing to the long-term placement at a named youth treatment centre of a child in care. The placement—of a 14-year-old boy—was considered essential and the centre is the only one that meets the youngster's needs.

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  I do not propose to go into the details, but the director drew the matter to the social services committee's attention because the annual cost of the placement to Birmingham's ratepayers was £72,000 a year. That is close to £200 a day. Councillor Barton said that the cost of protecting society from the youngster should not fall wholly on the local authority. The cost of the placement is equivalent to 10 day care places for people with mental handicap, five fully trained social workers, or 10 home helps.
  Councillor Barton, whose concerns I supported in a letter to the Minister, received a response from the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie) as Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security, the effect of which was "Tough". She said that if the young man was in Birmingham's care the cost would fall on Birmingham, and that the nature of the placement did not affect that.
  If the youngster had committed some of the offences that it was feared he might commit, the Home Office would have had to meet the bill. The Minister said that there are lots of youngsters in places that cost more than £40,000 a year. That is but one example, but it shows that budgets cannot take account of everything. That is what local government is all about—coping with unforeseen problems as they rise as efficiently and sensibly as possible. Local authorities must act in the best interests of the community as a whole and of the individual concerned. In such a case, no help is forthcoming to Birmingham or any other council, although it is a wholly unexpected impost on the budget.
  There is one Conservative Member who insists that there is no such thing as the poll tax but, like the poll tax, the changes in rate support grant or revenue support grant —if the Minister can get the name changed to needs grant that will be fine, but I suspect that the Department still likes to use the jargon expression RSG—are designed to undermine rather than to underpin democratic local government.
  Coupled with the Local Government Finance Act 1988, the Bill and other legislation to come will free Ministers to manipulate Government funding to local government and business rates and to fix the poll tax. Unfortunately, from the Government's point of view, local government does not run scared of the Prime Minister as she operates her agenda to emasculate it. We did not hear much from the Minister about the purpose and function of local government. The idea is abroad in the speeches and comments of many Conservative Members that local government is simply an agency that provides services dictated by the centre. I reject that view, as should all democrats.
  We live in a unitary state, and if we do not have genuine, local, democratic government, we cannot divide political power—it will all reside at the centre. We need genuine, democratic, local government to increase political participation and emancipation and to provide responsive, appropriate local services based on local needs, locally assessed. I am pleased to see that the Minister approves that latter point.
  It was written a long time ago that a unitary state will end up a dictatorship if there is no freedom in the localities. If there is no freedom in the localities, it naturally follows
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  that all power goes to the centre. Dictatorship is the inevitable consequence. It follows the suppression of local freedoms and initiative and the curtailment of local responsibility and opportunity.
  As Opposition Members said in Committee when considering the Local Government Finance Bill, the political liberty of British citizens demands a system of local government that commands confidence. It must have the confidence and power to operate in our pluralistic society, not as a challenge to Parliament or to the Government, but as a clear challenge to Whitehall obtaining all the power, and to scrutinise other agencies at work within the state. That is an important role for local government.
  As the poll tax legislation comes into operation—and there is much more still to come to the House—Ministers will realise that in the past local authorities have been intermediaries, a buffer between central power and what has been termed the ultimately unmeetable pressures of a mass democracy by Dr. Ken Young, formerly of the Policy Studies Institute, in one of his essays. In other words, good quality, democratically accountable local government has protected Ministers from the demands of a mass democracy. It has buttressed them and put a fence around them, because, as they know, many of the pressures are unmeetable, and local democracy was one way of assisting that part of a political process. That has been an advantage to Ministers, and as people increasingly realise that it is not worth bothering with local government—I question why people will want to become councillors in future—the buck will stop at the door of the Ministers. It will be no good their telling people to go back to their local authorities because, generally speaking, the local authorities will be in no position to deal with the matter.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: I followed very closely my hon. Friend's comments about dictatorship from the centre. Does he agree that on occasion Conservative councils have been prepared to stand up to a Conservative Government and point out the error of their ways? Is it not a matter of regret that the Government have a greater tendency towards dictatorship from the centre, particularly in Bradford, where Tory councillors are being manipulated by the centre to impose cuts and sackings to further the political ambitions of a clique in the leadership?
  Mr. Rooker: My hon. Friend is right. I suspect that later today right hon. and hon. Members will quite rightly hear a lot more about what is happening in Bradford. I am not an expert on Bradford, but I understand that at one time there was a move to replace the lord mayor with an elected chairman of the council, and that that move came from my own party, but the Tories in Bradford said, "You cannot do that. You will bring the chief citizen of the city into political arguments day after day." The Tories used that argument when we wanted an elected chairman, but if we look at what is happening in Bradford today, it is clear that the mayor is taking all the decisions.
  Mr. Patnick: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. The lord mayor of Sheffield has been in the Labour party for the past six years and looks like staying there for ever more.
  Mr. Rooker: The hon. Gentleman can make his own speech.

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  The Minister did not mention one aspect of local government, and that is that quality local government, and confident local government, enlarges the power that people have over their own lives. We have to make the point again and again. Whether it is putting pressure on the Government—a legitimate activity so far as I am aware—working with local employers, or expressing local concerns, it is providing an infrastructure for our lives and dividing power so that it is shared more equally than it would be if it resided at the centre.
  Although it is on record that the Prime Minister wants to snuff out a political party that happens to have a greater share of local power in our unitary state than the central governing party—she is on record as wishing to snuff out the Labour party and she has made that quite clear—I am not sure whether the Cabinet is aware of the profound constitutional dangers in further weakening local government.
  Whether we have local government or local agencies, we cannot all have a library in our home, we cannot build and maintain the road outside our home, and we cannot all be personal fire fighters, teachers, home helps, drain cleaners, plumbers and refuse collectors. However, we can do all those vital activities as a community or, dare I say, as a society. We do not need all the services all the time. The key is to make the connection between benefit to the individual and the family so that it is there when required and should not be dependent upon being rich, which is what the Government are setting out to achieve. We are a much healthier and much richer society when we club together to provide what we could not achieve as individuals.
  Contrary to what Ministers say, local government is about local differences— the difference between a Lakeland district and a London borough, the difference between rural villages and urban villages. Such differences in our society have to be taken into account.
  To Ministers, accountability means doing what they say, but accountability should reside at the ballot box, not in ministerial declarations. I regret that there are two snags. First, the new Minister for Local Government considers the right to vote as being purchased by taxation. He sees no alternative to the point that he made in a speech in Norfolk earlier this month—I do not usually use these words, but I shall quote him—when he said:
  "The community charge will provide a 'ready reckoner' so that when each charge payer votes in local elections he will cast that vote not only responsibly"
  —he emphasised "responsibly"—
  "because he is making a contribution towards the cost of local services".
  In other words, if one does not make a contribution towards the cost of local services, one's vote cannot be a responsible vote. I do not think that such an attitude should be expressed by a Minister for Local Government.
  Mr. Gummer: If I had said that the hon. Gentleman would be quite right, but he failed to quote the rest of the speech. I said that every individual should be given the means to pay the community charge, that 9 million people —a quarter of the electorate—would be given that means and that that was why the Labour party hated calling it a community charge and insisted upon mis-calling it a poll tax. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to quote, he must quote correctly.
  Mr. Rooker: I quoted word for word the beginning of the paragraph on the last page of the Department of the Environment's press release on 7 October. The rest of it was packed full of half truths about the poll tax, as I said in a speech in Croydon recently, where they believed me to such an extent that in the by-election in the Bensham Manor ward last week, in which the poll tax was the key issue, Labour not only gained 65 per cent. of the votes, but there was a 12 per cent. Swing to Labour, after the voters had been told the other half of the truth.
  My second point about accountability is more important than the Minister's speech, because the ballot box is more important. Our rightful complaint is that the Government have deprived the constituents of my hon. Friends and of one or two Conservative hon. Members in the metropolitan districts of the right to vote in 1989. It will be a vote-free year because the Government have refused to return to the big cities the annual vote that they lost by the abolition of the metropolitan counties. We vote every year in the big cities. It is a much more effective form of democracy than to vote every four years, whether it be in London or the shire counties. We are prepared to live or die politically by the ballot box. The Government do not believe in that, or they would have restored the right of the people in Bradford, Birmingham and other large cities to vote for or against their council in 1989. They would also have introduced annual elections in London—something that they have avoided.
  When the Bill was published the Minister spent some time dealing with creative accountancy. We should note that he did not call it illegal accounting, but creative accounting, the Government's term. People would think that that was exclusive to Labour-controlled local authorities. That is not the case. I saw the leader of a Conservative council being interviewed on television and he was boasting about a project and admitted that it had been carried out legally by accountancy techniques used in industry every day.
  The more we learn about what happens in the local council in which the House of Commons resides, the less we are willing to take lectures from Tory Ministers. The freehold of the Conservative party's headquarters was purchased from Westminster council in 1981 for £1·3 million and was sold in 1983 for £3·7 million, against the advice of the director of property of Westminster council. It was sold at a profit to the Tory party of £2·4 million and a loss to the ratepayers of £2·4 million. I do not know whether the sale took place early in 1983 or later in the year when the Minister was the chairman of the Conservative party. I know that the Conservative party and Westminster council conspired to deprive the ratepayers of Westminster of £2·4 million, and for that reason we will take no lectures on accounting from the Government.
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  Mr. Irvine Patnick: The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) made an interesting speech.
  The Bill is divided into four parts—the rate support closedown, how the closedown will take place, the control of creative accounting and the rate support grant settlement for 1989–90. The Bill details all that and I am pleased to see that the aggregate Exchequer grant for 1989–90 has been set at £13·575 billion. That is a £1·1

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  billion increase on the grant being paid for 1988–89. It allows for the change in the funding for polytechnics and is a 9 per cent. increase in the amount of grant to be paid out this year. I am also pleased to see that £110 million is being provided in respect of the extra cost that the local authorities will incur in preparing for the community charge. That is in line with the estimate of the cost involved by Price Waterhouse and is consistent with the figures put forward by the local authorities.
  I was distressed that my right hon. Friend the Minister would not let me bear gifts. I understand that the 7 July deadline, which gave three months' notice to local authorities, was met by all local authorities, except two.
  I listened to the challenge to my right hon. Friend the Minister by the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks). I shall read the litany of Newham. The
  "Labour councillor, Mr. John Wilson, has resigned from the Council. He claimed that free speech in the all-Labour council was stifled, and compared his colleagues' behaviour to 'Hitler's Fascist State.'"
  That was reported in the Newham Recorder on 18 December 1986.
  Mr. Cryer: What about Sheffield?
  Mr. Patnick: I shall come to Sheffield.
  Mr. Tony Banks: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Patnick: I am sorry but I will not. The hon. Member for Perry Barr gave way to me only once and has refused to give way before.
  Mr. Tony Banks rose—
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Order. The hon. Gentleman has made it clear that he does not intend to give way at this time.
  Mr. Patnick: I will give way when I finish the litany of hate. It continues:
  "The Council has refused to run an advertisement for the Metropolitan Police's major anti-racial harassment campaign on the grounds that it was 'patronising' and a 'cosmetic gesture.'"
  That was reported in The Daily Telegraph on 16 January and the Newham Recorder on 15 January 1987.
  "The Council has added 'Count Zeppelin' to a list of approved names for local buildings and streets. East London suffered badly from bombs dropped by Zeppelins in the First World War."
  That was reported in the Evening Standard in February 1987.
  Newham's auditors, the same auditors who found the £110 million that will be used to implement the community charge—Arthur Young International—
  "have called for urgent action to stop 'needless' waste of cash in Newham's education system. Two years ago the auditors said that the council was wasting £250,000 each year by failing to reorganise senior schools in order to match the places available with the lower level of demand. The report states: 'Continued delays in matching provision to need are giving rise to additional and needless cost while also leading to under-achievement.'"
  That was reported in the Newham Recorder in February 1987.
  "A Government report shows that Newham has the second highest percentage of empty council homes in the country. 2,420 council homes are empty, 7·8 per cent. of the stock."
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  That was reported in the Newham Recorder in February 1987.
  Mr. Heffer: Why?
  Mr. Patnick: On 12 February 1987 the Newham Recorder said:
  "The Labour Council leader, Councillor Fred Jones, has called the Newham Chamber of Commerce 'fifth columnists' for allegedly undermining the Council's campaign against ratecapping. Councillor Jones has written to the Chamber 'we have been repaid by betrayal' and presumably he is referring to last year's 13 per cent. rate increase, the highest in London."
  Mr. Heffer: Why does the hon. Gentleman not talk about the other side of the fence?
  Mr. Patnick: Does the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) wish to intervene?
  Mr. Heffer: Yes. The hon. Gentleman spoke about what is happening to repairs and so on in Newham. It can apply to Liverpool or elsewhere. Government Front Bench spokesmen have admitted that the Government have taken millions of pounds away from local authorities. That is why local authorities are in that position. The hon. Gentleman does not give that side of the story—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Patnick: The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) enjoys making seated interventions, but it is very rare for him to stand and make his comments.
  Mr. Martin Flannery rose—
  Mr. Tony Banks rose—
  Mr. Patnick: I will not give way.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Is the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick) giving way to anyone at this time?
  Mr. Patnick: I will give way when I have finished dealing with Newham.
  Mr. Tony Banks rose—
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman said that he will give way when he has finished this section of his speech.
  Mr. Patnick: Thank you for your protection, Madam Deputy Speaker.
  On 7 September 1987 the Evening Standard said that the
  "Residents of a Council block were refused a £200 grant by the Council because the tenants' account is banked with Barclays Bank."
  In December 1987 The Guardian reported:
  "The council advertised last December for a Senior Women's Equality Officer at a salary of £15,000. The job involves working within the Women's Equality Unit, 'raising the profile of women's equality' and 'encouraging and supporting women's groups and activities.'"
  I apologise to the House for this list. I ceased being a member of Sheffield city council in May this year. Until the beginning of January these little snippets of information allowed me to place the antics of Sheffield in the scale of what I would call the oddball things that happen. In that regard, Newham was always ahead of Sheffield by an average that I could never work out.

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  I shall give a quotation from the bible of the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks)—The Guardian of 20 January 1988. It states:
  "Newham council has advertised for a Race Equality Research Officer who must have 'a knowledge of racial disadvantage in housing' and for a Central Race Equality Officer who must display 'a knowledge of discrimination and racial harassment'. Both posts carry salaries in excess of £22,000 a year."
  Mr. Tony Banks: I cannot understand why the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick) is spending so much of his speech talking about the London borough of Newham when he should be concerning himself with Sheffield. I am touched that he should show so much concern, but inadvertently he has misled the House a number of times and has hardly been quoting from impartial sources. I cannot answer all his points because I do not have sufficient time in this intervention, but I shall write to the hon. Gentleman. I shall have to consider carefully my involvement with the Newham chamber of commerce—I am having dinner there next week—and perhaps I should not have gone to Barclays bank to open the business centre. If Newham council is so bad, why does the hon. Gentleman think that there are 59 Labour councillors and one Social Democratic party councillor? It is a Tory-free zone. Last week, the Labour party won two by-elections. The Tories do not stand a chance in Newham, yet the Labour party receives massive support. If what the hon. Gentleman says is true—he must know that it is not—why does he think that the people of Newham give the Labour party so much support?
  Mr. Patnick: The hon. Member for Newham, North-West is quite wrong. I am giving examples of what Newham council has done. I do not recollect hearing any retraction concerning these allegations since I have been in the House.
  Mr. Flannery: The hon. Gentleman has traduced Sheffield city council. He belongs to a minority party in Sheffield, which is routed and defeated every year. It held power only once, in 1926. The hon. Gentleman fought its transport policy tooth and nail, but every year the Labour party's vote increased. The hon. Gentleman has a nerve denouncing his own council when his party is defeated every year.
  Mr. Patnick: I wonder whether the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) could be given a hearing aid. I have been reciting the litany of Newham council's activities; I have not mentioned Sheffield, Bradford or any other areas. I thank the hon. Member for Hillsborough for his help and assistance.
  The 1986 manifesto of Sheffield district Labour party, which is larger than the Conservative party manifesto about which everyone keeps arguing—
  Mr. Heffer: Read it out.
  Mr. Patnick: I shall do so, if hon. Members wish.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Patnick: Thank you for your protection, Madam Deputy Speaker.
  The hon. Member for Perry Barr will have heard before the quotation that I am about to give from the manifesto,
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  but, sadly, the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) is not present. The front page of the manifesto says:
  "The best local government is superb and private enterprise could never improve on it, with Sheffield a shining example."
  John Banham made those remarks, and in Sheffield city council's inimitable manner it gives him as the chairman of the Audit Commission in 1985.
  It is worthy of note that some local authorities have indulged in creative accounting and other activities. Some decided to fund a Left-wing newspaper, the News on Sunday. Manchester city council gave it £268,000, Southwark £250,000, Brent £250,000, Islington £250,000 and Derbyshire council also contributed. Ratepayers' cash was given to an enterprise that failed completely.
  Rent arrears in those wonderfully run organisations are running high. Manchester city council's rent arrears are £5 million—10 per cent. of its rents are uncollected. For Haringey, the figure is 28 per cent., or £5·6 million, for Southwark it is £24 million, for Islington it is £6 million and for Camden it is £7 million.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister referred to deferred loans. Manchester city council has £100 million of deferred loans, Islington has £74 million, Camden has £100 million and, for the benefit of the hon. Member for Hillsborough, let me say that Sheffield has £110 million. Its repayments were due to start three years from the start of the loan, which was for seven years. The cost of repaying that loan is £175 million. The bank that is involved is the Banque
  Bradford city council spends money on things that I can describe only as odd. Mr. Pickles—everybody seems to think that he arrived on the scene yesterday afternoon—has been chairman of Bradford education committee for some time. The hon. Member for Hillsborough remarked on the fares policy. When I sought advice about that policy from the Conservative party, it was not forthcoming, as, I imagine, advice has not been forthcoming for the leader of Bradford city council. Bradford city council told the electorate what it intended to do and has implemented its policy. I remind those who have the temerity and cheek to remark on the lord mayor using his casting vote of the time when the Labour party and Conservative party had parity on Sheffield city council.
  Mr. Flannery: When was that?
  Mr. Patnick: It was in 1968, comrade. At that time, the lord mayor of Sheffield city council had a casting vote. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) was chief whip of the Labour group. It operated the ultimate fiddle to maintain control of that council. The city had 27 aldermen, but if the Conservatives had been given the correct number of aldermen it would have remained in control of the city. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw did a fantastic job by granting the Tories three aldermen, and keeping the remaining 24 for the Labour party.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. This is all very interesting, but it does not relate to the Bill. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could relate his remarks to the Bill.
  Mr. Patnick: With respect, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is related to the Bill because we are discussing creative accounting—
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I am not getting into an argument with the hon. Gentleman. He is not relating his remarks to the Bill, and I am asking him to do so.
  Mr. Flannery: The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick) should put his notes away and get on with his speech.
  Mr. Patnick: That is more than the hon. Member for Hillsborough has done since I have been in Parliament.
  Under the community charge, more than half the households will be better off, four out of five single pensioners will be better off and nearly nine out of 10 one-parent families will be better off. Almost everybody pays. That means that the poorest can pay less. Four million people will pay only 20 per cent., and even get help with that, and 5 million more people will pay a reduced charge. More than one quarter of local voters will get help with their bills. They will all contribute something to the cost of their local council, so everyone will know how well this money is spent. On every community charge bill they will see how much they have to pay, and next to it what they could pay if there was a sensible council providing a reasonable service. People will know whether they are properly governed. There will be accountable councils and responsible voters.
  I have referred to the Labour party's 1986 manifesto for Sheffield. The council summons for the business to be debated on Wednesday contains a notice of motion, which states:
  "That, in view of the continuing hardship and distress caused to Sheffield tenants and home owners by the backlog, delays and errors in administering housing benefit"
  the council will have to take certain action.
  Money would be available if Sheffield city council made savings. I shall quote the report by the district auditor— believe it or not—which was issued on 31 December 1987.
  Mr. Tony Banks: Oh, no.
  Mr. Patnick: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman knows that I served my time in the guerilla trenches of south Yorkshire and Sheffield. His remarks do not worry me. I shall make the speech that I intended to make.
  The district auditor's report said that a saving of £600,000 a year could be made on the cleaning and caretaking of schools. Referring to the cost of £12 million for heating and lighting the council's premises, the district auditor said that, despite the savings achieved, further savings were possible and that, using a 25 per cent. national figure, the council could save £1 million. He told the council to reduce its stockholding by £500,000 and to save £150,000 on overheads.
  The works department spends £40 million a year on supplies and its running costs exceed £1 million. The district auditor said that vehicle fleet management could be improved and a saving of £400,000 made and that the fleet size could be reduced by six vehicles. On maintenance, the council was over target by 50 per cent. and could save £90,000. An amount of £125 million was collected in rates income, and the auditor identified possible savings of £1·75 million on rates collection, mortgage advances and off-street parking. On the sundries deficit of £37 million, the auditor identified room for a saving of £50,000 and possibly a further saving of £180,000.
  Why is Sheffield city council involved in skip hire, window cleaning and municipal funeral services? [Interruption.] It is all very well for the hon. Member for
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  Kirkcaldy (Dr. Moonie) to create a diversion, but those are the savings that Sheffield could make, without creative accountancy.
  Sheffield city council always screams about Government grants. On 44 claims with a total grant of £100 million, the council could have saved £323,000 if the claims had been submitted within 60 days of the period to which they related. The direct labour organisation gets £10 million for housing repairs, yet there was an overpayment of bonus costs of £200,000 a year, with 15 per cent. overclaimed in housing costs.
  The authority's magazine says that it is worried about sickness and absence, which costs £1 million a year. If this were controlled, £400,000 a year could be saved. If the council could restore levels of performance to those of two years ago, a saving of £300,000 on incentive bonuses could be made. The council's manpower has increased by 2,500 full-time workers, or 12 per cent. and by 1,500 part-time workers, or 15 per cent.
  When the report was published, the works department said that it revealed a total loss of £1·2 million last year. The report gave this warning:
  "Severe financial and competitive pressure in the department has been caused by a combination of legislation, forcing the department to compete for tender with the private sector."
  Rent arrears were £9·1 million in March 1985 and £8·5 million in July 1987. This cost the city £900,000 in interest.
  The district auditor—not Conservative central office —identified possible savings of £6·793 million. But all was not lost. Sheffield city council's treasurer issued to the council a report on revenue budgets. That was a new approach for 1988–89, which was approved by the council. The Treasurer said that he would set a cash limit on the council's total expenditure for each of the next three years in advance of the preparation of detailed budgets. He said that he would give each committee a cash allocation for 1988–89, together with guideline allocations for 1989–90 and 1990–91, which would require the committees to absorb inflation and growth.
  The treasurer introduced an incentive procedure whereby committees could find ways of increasing their cash limits and reinvest the money in service provision. He said:
  "The impact in future years will be important and subsequent cash limits must not be exceeded."
  The treasurer introduced a holdback procedure whereby a sum of money over and above the cash limits to which he had already referred would be set aside each year and distributed to committees. He introduced a direct link between the service delivery plans and the revenue budgets, with a built-in process of review, and gave the opportunity to introduce activity budgets linked to spending. We call that rate capping. The treasurer turned the system round and said, "This is what Sheffield intends to do."
  My litany is not one just of gloom. In Sheffield there is now £1·3 billion of private enterprise investment and a development is taking place which will be the pride of England. The Opposition say that no savings can be made in local government.
  Dr. Lewis Moonie: Who said that?
  Mr. Patnick: The hon. Member for Perry Barr said it. He pointed out where the South Yorkshire police authority was short of money. Sheffield city council is short of £3·7 million. There is still fat on the bones of

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  Sheffield city council, despite all the hard work it has done to come into the 20th century. I am proud to have been a member of Sheffield city council. Despite the comments by the hon. Member for Hillsborough, I am proud to have been a member of South Yorkshire county council. It is a matter of record that that council collected £1 billion from ratepayers and spent £500 million on fare subsidies. The police were short of accommodation and highways were disintegrating. Spending by other services was needed and could have been achieved if the council had not otherwise used the money.
  I am proud to have been a member of Sheffield city council for 20 years. Sheffield is a great place in which to live and I recommend it to anyone.
  Mr. Cryer: It is under Labour control.
  Mr. Patnick: It is under Labour control, as the MEP for Sheffield keeps reminding us. I often wonder what the people of Sheffield are getting out of Europe when the hon. Gentleman is sitting in this Chamber. Nevertheless, he wears two hats, one representing Bradford and the other Sheffield, but I suppose that both places are in the north of England.
  I repeat that I am proud to have been a Sheffield city councillor for 20 years. Sheffield is a wonderful place to live and for people to come to, but economies could be made in the council's budget, as the district auditor has made clear—and if those economies can be made in Sheffield, they can also be made elsewhere.
  5.30 pm
  Mr. Pat Wall: When I spoke in the debate on rate support grant at the beginning of December last year I used a quotation from Howard Davies, controller of the Audit Commission, pointing out that if all the Government's privatisation plans affecting local government were put into operation it would mean a reduction in local government expenditure of approximately one third and a loss of jobs in local government which I put at about 500,000 and Howard Davies estimated at more than 700,000, at least 50 per cent. of whom would not get their jobs back in the private firms taking over services from local authorities. Even a month ago I did not expect to come here today with such a graphic example of that, but Bradford council is now attempting to carry out—on the basis of the mayor's casting vote, known as "one person, two votes"—a programme that has in no sense been put to the people of Bradford and which will mean devastation not just for employment but for services in the city.
  Mr. Robin Squire rose—
  Mr. Wall: I shall not give way at this stage.
  That programme includes the announcement of 9,000 redundancies. We are told that it means only 2,600 full-time jobs but for the employees involved it means 9,000 jobs—in a city with 25,000 unemployed people and staff shortages at benefit offices and DHSS offices dealing with existing cases. Cuts of £2·6 million are planned for next year, and cuts of £5·8 million in total, with a £687,000 cut in environmental employment, and there are plans to close the benefit shops in Bradford, which deal with 55,000 cases per year. The excuse is that the council cannot deal with DHSS queries, but only people who have never been unemployed and have never tried to fill up a DHSS form
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  claiming benefit could be unaware of the enormous difficulty that many people have in filling up such forms and appealing against decisions. In Bradford. 55,000 people come to the benefit shops every year, to say nothing of those who consult Members of Parliament, councillors and voluntary organisations in the city.
  The council is talking about increasing charges for car parking and cemeteries, and cutting standby road gritting. Cuts of £3⅓ million are proposed, in education, with school meals going up by one third to 80p, and creches being cut or scrapped. There will also be cuts in teaching jobs and in school repairs, although a third of our schools were built before 1906 and we have one of the worst backlogs in school repairs of any city in Britain. Moreover, unlike most cities that have falling school rolls, the number of children entering our schools is increasing. There are calls for the scrapping of special books and equipment for inner city schools, although Bradford is one of Britain's most deprived cities, with a large immigrant population, and, like Leeds, historically has had one of the worst capitation figures in Britain for expenditure on books.
  The council is taking £367,000 out of museums and libraries, increasing charges at sports centres and swimming baths and cutting jobs in outdoor recreation. Sports centres are being sold off, as is the historic and beautiful St. Ives estate, which was given to the people of Bingley by the Ferrands family in the 1920s for community and public use. There are to be cuts of £832,000 in social services, and 15 old people's homes are to be sold off. How can any Tory Member maintain that services will be better than those provided by local authorites when the people taking over have to make a profit, which can be achieved only by cuts in services to the old people or reductions in staff wages?
  Sir Marcus Fox rose—
  Mr. Wall: I see that the hon. Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox) has arrived. He knows the result of that process in relation to hospital cleaning. As a result of privatisation, the lowest paid in our community, many of them battling against enormous social problems, had to bargain down their pitiful wages to get their own jobs back. Let no one talk about morality, decency and family life in that situation.
  Sir Marcus Fox: Will the hon. Gentleman give way as he has mentioned me?
  Mr. Wall: I shall sit down in a minute. The hon. Gentleman has only just come in.
  Bolton house was renovated by the ratepayers of Bradford at a cost of nearly £1 million—a heart-warming example of renovation and refurbishment for residents and staff—but it is now being put up for sale to private interests. A £1 home help charge is being introduced, and meals on wheels are going up from 49p to 60p. There are to be further cuts in housing and the environment of £170,000, cuts in emergency accommodation for the homeless and cuts in action against employers under the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act. All those measures will directly hit working people, the young homeless and other problems in the city. In central administration, £380,000 is being saved by cutting 109 jobs immediately.
  Sir Marcus Fox: If the Labour party had remained in control in Bradford, the 15 homes that the hon. Gentleman says should not be privatised would have

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  required between £10 million and £15 million expenditure to bring them up to standard. What would the hon. Gentleman have done about that?
  Mr. Wall: The standards in a privatised home in London were reported in the newspapers recently—40 residents got two chickens between them and one and a half sprouts each. That is how the savings are made. In fact, the Labour council in Bradford had plans to refurbish two more old people's homes this year as part of a rolling programme, and if the results are half as good as they were at Bolton house and Peel house they will be a proud memorial to the Labour council and good for the old people of the city.
  Mr. Cryer: The hon. Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox) has reservations about the subject. In our local newspaper he rightly expressed concern about old people who are to be sold off lock, stock and barrel like so many cattle to profiteering friends of the Conservative party. The hon. Gentleman is trying to ride two horses at once—locally he expresses concern about the deplorable standards caused by private exploitation and ownership, but here in the House he tries to make out that everything will be all right.
  Mr. Wall: I support my hon. Friend's views. I could refer to privatised homes not that far from the constituency of the hon. Member for Shipley, but this debate is about local government expenditure and services.
  The leader of Bradford council has a rather mysterious job. No one knows where he is employed, who employs him or what his legal qualifications are. Rumours have abounded during the past three or four weeks. One was that the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) was in town last Tuesday when the council was about to debate the cuts package. Although, unfortunately, the Conservative proposals were agreed to at that meeting, the right hon. Member for Chingford actually got no further than Leeds, where he was signing copies of his book. That seems to be a priority activity for far too many politicians.
  It is unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman found time to appear on television and refer to Bradford. He said:
  "Councils cannot be an employer of people just because they are there."
  He also said:
  "Bradford people deserve to get their services at the right price and they should not be rooked by people who have been rooking them for years."
  I have been careful to get the quotes correct. I even looked at the video of the television programme this morning. The right hon. Gentleman has interfered in Bradford matters before. During the general election I and my fellow Labour candidates in Bradford found our pictures on Conservative advertisements. The House will remember that the right hon. Gentleman was chairman of the Conservative party at that time. The advertisements attributed to me a quote that not only did not belong to me, but was a summary of someone's views as reported by the Journalist, that someone being my opponent in a debate. I am being careful to quote correctly the right hon. Gentleman's words, whereas he was not so careful about the quotes that he used during the general election campaign.
  Mr. Patnick: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During my speech you ruled that I was straying from the subject matter and I immediately returned to it. I do not think that the hon. Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall) has yet come anywhere near the subject matter.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman was straying for some time before I called him to order.
  Mr. Wall: The right hon. Member for Chingford implied that lower prices for Bradford people would result from privatisation, but what has actually happened? There has been an average increase of £3 in council house rents, with further increases to come in March. Are not council tenants the people of Bradford? There are increased costs for users of sports centres, swimming pools and leisure facilities. Are not those users the people of Bradford? Schoolchildren will have to pay another one third for school meals. Are they not part of the population of Bradford? Old people will have to pay more for meals on wheels, and the sick and the disabled more for home helps. Are they not the people of Bradford?
  The crux of the matter is that the Bill is designed to cut expenditure and to put a burden on the backs of the poor, the children, the council house tenant and the young people who wish to use art, sport and leisure facilities. As the late Earl of Stockton said, we are selling off the family silver to amass capital to reduce the poll tax charge. It is a political move that will benefit the wealthier sections of Bradford at the expense of the poorest in our community.
  The right hon. Member for Chingford implied that people have no right to be employed. A deprived town needs more services. What is wrong with the Government's local government policy, especially the poll tax, is that Government expenditure is calculated on a capitation basis. The problems of East Anglia and the Thames valley are nowhere near as great as those of Glasgow, Newcastle, Birmingham, Liverpool and Bradford. The people who supply the services in our cities are necessary, but they are easy targets for the Conservative party. People working in local government, the Inland Revenue and the DHSS have families, just as we have families. They live next door to us, go to the supermarket and the church with us and have a drink with us at the local pub. Their children play football with our children. Those 9,000 jobs in Bradford, even if most of them are part time, are important. Unemployment is just as real for them as it was for the textile and engineering workers who lost their jobs in tens of thousands after 1975 because of the recessions in Bradford.
  Part of the Government's so-called economic miracle is the movement of large numbers of people to part-time employment. Their jobs are important to them and form part of their standard of living. The loss of their jobs will be devastating for them. The Labour party must support the part-time workers so that they can have proportional rates of pay with full-time employees and full employment, pension, health and welfare rights. Their jobs are just as important as full-time jobs.
  Bradford is a proud town, but it has real problems. There is a £130 million backlog in housing repair. Bradford has the worst health record in Britain, with the highest rate of infant mortality. A girl born in Bradford has two years less life expectancy than average, and a middle-aged man has three times more chance of a heart attack than someone living in the more prosperous

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  south-east. There are 10,000 people on the housing waiting list, and it has the lowest wage rates of any town in Britain. Bradford needs services; it does not need to be attacked by its Conservative council. Was a £3 rent increase outlined in its Conservative manifesto? Were cuts of £5 million included? Did it refer to the sacking of 9,000 people? What about the additional charges for meals on wheels? Was that contained in the manifesto? Of course none of those was in the manifesto. They form part of a secret manifesto brought from Smith square by the Tory party's messenger boy who parades as leader of the city council.
  There has been a great deal of talk from Conservatives about trendy, lunatic Lefties in local councils. I can only say that neither I nor my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford. South (Mr. Cryer) and for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) have been accused of being trendy, either sartorially, socially or politically—although we have been accused of many other things. I have spoken politically and publicly against the danger of developing a positive discrimination that makes working men feel that, somehow, they are responsible for all the horrors of the British empire, colonialism and the slave trade.
  There are real problems. Some people's small excesses do not deny the real problems. Three quarters of the people in this country who are underpaid according to the Common Market's level of decent wages are women. Women are poorly represented at any of the higher levels of society, including Parliament. Our wives, daughters and sisters do not have the same opportunities as men. Therefore, local authorities are quite right to make efforts to find a better life and position for women in general.
  In Bradford, where about one quarter of the population are Asian, we have special language and social deprivation problems that need to be tackled by the council. One of the most shameful things that has happened in Bradford is that grants to 25 local organisations have been cut. After public pressure, the council managed to find enough money for 22 of them until March of next year. The three organisations that were left out were one Pakistani organisation and two Bengali organisations. Bradford is composed of Bangladeshis.
  A few weeks ago I had a small housing surgery with the Bangladeshi Youth Organisation. Seven people came in. They were denied improvement grants by the city of Bradford during the freeze that was carried out by the Conservative administration. Those people did not want fancy bathrooms or kitchens. They had holes in their roofs, collapsed ceilings, doors that did not fasten, and windows that let the wind and rain pour through. They were denied grants. That shows the meanness, spitefulness and anti-working class approach of the Bradford council.
  In conclusion, I thank Eric Pickles. I spent 20 years trying to revitalise Bradford's enormous radical tradition as a pioneering town. We are the town of education, of Foster and Margaret Macmillan. We are the town that saw the early birth and development of the trade union movement. We are the city in which the independent Labour party was founded—the forerunner of the modern Labour party. In some ways we have strayed from those traditions, but after the mass demonstration outside Bradford town hall, the enormous upheaval of community spirit, and the demand for community action, we shall come to praise Eric Pickles for refounding Bradford as a centre not only of pioneering in the past but of Socialism today.
  5.52 pm
  Mr. David Wilshire: When I first jotted down some thoughts about the Bill, I noted that it offers an almost irresistible temptation to redebate local government finance. Having listened to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick) and, just a moment ago, the hon. Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall), I find that I need not have put the word "almost" in front of the word "irresistible". It has been amply demonstrated that the temptation is totally irresistible. I can understand why that is so, as the Bill relates to the winding-up of the current rate support grant system.
  It is perfectly possible for anybody who has ever been connected with local government to wish the current system a fond farewell. I do not believe that anybody, whatever their party politics, will lament the end of an uncertain system or the end of uncertainty about the amount of money that they will get until several years after they spent it. They will not lament that they will no longer have a formula that they probably do not understand, and, even if they do understand it, that will be changed before it is put into effect. It is also perfectly possible to have such a debate about the new rate support grant system.
  As the Bill paves the way towards that new RSG system—I was horrified to know that "RSG" will probably lurk with us even longer and mean something different, but perhaps we can debate that another time—it is perfectly possible to extol the virtues of paying grant as the basis of assessment of need rather than on the basis of somebody's expenditure. I can also understand why we could use the Bill as a means of debating all over again why it has become necessary to overhaul local government finance. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hallam said, it would enable all of us to deplore the tactics of the loony Left in local government and the fact that it has forced central Government to do what has been done. It could even force us, as the hon. Member for Bradford, North has done, to have a long discussion about Bradford, but I shall resist that temptation, except to point out that several things were omitted from his catalogue.
  When the hon. Gentleman referred to the number of staff in Bradford who were no longer required, he did not point out that the overwhelming majority of the 2,500 jobs that will be lost will occur through natural wastage or redeployment. That is different from what is going on in Brent, where staff are simply being got rid off. There was no reference to the fact that some of the staff who are leaving Bradford are peace officers and anti-nuclear people—and the quicker they go the better. No reference was made to some of the so-called services that are to be affected. The fact that the women's committee will disappear is a good thing, not something that we should regret. We should applaud the fact that peace studies are likely to be scrapped. It is not something about which we should wring our hands. The fact that no longer will £15,000 be spent on anti-apartheid weeks in Bradford must be a good thing, and not a loss of services. No longer will Bradford fly terrorist flags in the shape of SWAPO and ANC flags. That is not something that the people of Bradford will regret.
  Mr. Max Madden: In recent days the hon. Gentleman has taken a keen interest in Bradford. He

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  has tabled an amendment to that which was tabled by my hon. Friend's the Members for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall) and for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer). In his list of committees that have been abolished, he omitted reference to the health advisory committee and the race relations committee. Does he commend the abolition of such committees with the same enthusiasm with which he supports the abolition of other committees?
  Mr. Wilshire: I have no doubt that Opposition Members and Conservative Members will produce their own lists. I have produced my list. The hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) will make his speech later. Hon. Members have demonstrated that there is almost endless scope for a political kick-about based on the Bill. It will probably come as a great relief to those Opposition Members whose blood pressure usually goes up when I speak about local government to know that most of what I shall say will not be at that level.
  On an occasion such as this, we could usefully take the facts of local government life as read and, for a moment or two as we discuss the Bill, accept that the old RSG system is operating whether we like it or not. We should equally accept that the Local Government Finance Act is with us and will be implemented. Given those facts of life, we must now wind up one system and make it possible to introduce the other.
  We must say whether the Bill is the best way of achieving that transition. To answer that question, we must first establish whether we know exactly what a good, smooth transition period needs. Before 1990, we need a simple system—a system that is certain and, therefore, will not divert the time of officers and councillors in racking their brains about what to do in the years leading up to 1990 but will allow them to concentrate on bringing in the new system. For the next few years, we need a clear-cut system. We cannot possibly contemplate a system that will drag on for two, three, or four years after 1990, as the current system does, so that officers and councillors will not only try to appraise the effect of the new method of collecting money but will agonise about whether they have got the figures for the previous years right.
  Above all else, any transitional system must make it sure that neither side—neither central Government nor local government—can manipulate what goes on, as that would divert people from what they need to do. The current RSG system fails that test in every respect. If we continued with anything remotely like it, we would still have a complex system leading up to 1990. If we continued with what we have, we would have a highly variable system. For this year and next, we probably would not know where we stood until it was too late. If major changes are not made now, we will probably have to take retrospective action for years after 1990.
  Not to put too fine a point on it, central Government of both political colours, and over many years, have a record of tinkering regularly with the rate support grant. When the Bill is enacted, there will no longer be that temptation. Local authorities of all political persuasions, not only Labour-controlled authorities, have a legendary reputation for creative accounting. The current system cannot be continued for the final two years. We must opt for an entirely different approach in bringing the transition into effect.
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  How does the Bill pass the various tests and how does it match the requirements that will lead to the easiest possible transition? Above all, the Bill will break the link, once and for all, between grant and spending. That must be the best news of all. The Bill proposes a system that will be simple, although it might be seen as slightly arbitrary. It proposes a system that will be certain for this year and for next. It proposes amounts that can be fixed so that central Government cannot tinker with them. The Bill's provisions block any possibility of local government entering into creative accounting to try to take advantage of the transitional period.
  The Bill passes the relevant tests extremely well. Therefore, it has my entire support. However, I wish to draw attention to a number of issues that arise from the transitional period. In closing off the years 1985 to 1988 and taking 7 July as the relevant date, it seems that the Government might be taking a fairly arbitrary approach. I accept, of course, that some date had to be taken, and I judge that ample notice was given. That the proposal is reasonable is borne out by the fact that all but two councils have found it possible to co-operate. None of the councils affected by the proposals has complained especially vigorously.
  I am concerned that some councils, in having to settle for interim figures, will face a potential loss of grant. That loss is likely to be at its maximum during 1987–88. Outturn figures are often the lowest of all figures when it comes to assessing grant over a number of years. However, we can live with that potential loss of grant because there is scope in what will follow to claw back some of the potential loss. The House will appreciate that there could be an over-assessment.
  The issue arising in the current year—the year in which local government now finds itself—equates mainly with good news. The use of budget figures must he the best news in the current year. It means that for this year there will be no penalty for overspending. There will be no likelihood of a reduction in grant when there are variations in expenditure. The absence of penalties and any possibility of clawback will go a long way to offset any losses and any criticism that is directed to the years before the current one.
  I have a personal concern which I hope my hon. Friend the Minister will comment upon when she replies. In all settlement assessments made by the Department of the Environment and local government at the earliest stages, there is always a great risk that some of the assumptions will be wrong. Later adjustments have always been the mechanism for putting right the assumptions. If it transpires that there is something tremendously wrong and that a real clanger has been dropped that no one could have foreseen, will the Minister be willing at some stage to address that? If experience teaches us something that is horrible, will the Government be prepared to take action?
  The issues are especially relevant for the final year of the system, which will be 1988–89. To use the current budget and then to adjust it and uprate it by inflation plus is the fairest possible way of handling the problem. The way in which the budget will be uprated, by what will amount to 9 per cent., seems extremely fair. It should mean that local government can go through the last year of the current financial regime without all the time having to rack its brains about the current year. It will thus be able to spend the maximum amount of time looking to the future. The proposed approach to uprating will provide a further

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  chance for any council which has lost out through its accounts having been closed off too soon—as a result, it would have lost money in the previous years—to recoup moneys that might have been lost.
  I accept that the adjustment that is being made for the introduction of the community charge seems to be sensible, for the amount is in line with what the Association of District Councils suggested. It is in line also with independent research and its findings. The formula, which means that half of the amount is arrived at by special calculation, meets the real worry of authorities that will have to introduce the charge in areas of high mobility. That formula has been devised in good faith in advance, but if certain councils find that the fairly rough-and-ready formula of taking the number of rented properties in the area as the only available measure to determine how mobile is the population has not been the best method of arriving at a conclusion and that an awful wrong has been committed, will the Government, in the light of experience, he prepared to consider making some adjustments to what they have proposed for the moment?
  The House would do well to resist all the temptations that are before it and to refrain from mixing it politically, as it were. It would not be profitable to go over issues that we have argued about for hour upon hour on previous occasions. Let us accept the fact that the Local Government Finance Act 1988 is with us and that it will produce benefits for the entire country by 1990. I urge the House to keep its eye firmly on the practical issues that are raised by the Bill. If it does, it will be able to determine whether the Bill is the best way to handle the transition and whether it will produce the simplest and smoothest mechanism and the maximum time to prepare for the future. If the House takes local government as it is, I believe that it will be supporting a measure that will minimise hassle and produce the easiest possible way of introducing the changes that must be made. In that context, I urge Opposition Members, who normally bridle at such things, to swallow hard and to give the Bill a unanimous Second Reading.
  6.8 pm
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: I cannot but start my comments by saying that I join those who have expressed regret that we should be debating the Bill during the parliamentary spill-over period. It is not an urgent Bill, nor is it uncontroversial. I regret that the Government have taken an almost unprecedented decision by introducing it to the House at this stage. It would have been better to have had a lengthier and more informed debate at the beginning of the new Session rather than a necessarily restricted debate during the brief interim period that we are passing through. Nevertheless, we are here and we have heard what the Minister has to say in trying to refute many of the criticisms of those who are concerned about the effect that the Bill will have on certain councils.
  The Minister repeatedly told the House about what he saw as the deplorable cash management and mismanagement of a few councillors and councils throughout the country. He justified the impact of the Bill in those terms. I cannot believe that the Minister would say that the only councils to be hit by the Bill will be those which have mismanaged or have used their funds—ratepayers' funds —in what he would term a deplorable way. Surely he
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  realises that many well-managed, honest and upright councils representing all political complexions will be hit by the rigidities of the proposed mechanism that he is introducing.
  As the Minister said, it is helpful to know in advance exactly how much money will be received by a local authority. Unfortunately, many councils that have planned their budgets carefully will be jeopardised by the new method of setting the RSG because of the rigidities within the proposed mechanism and the way in which it will be introduced.
  The Minister was right to criticise the present system. There is no party dispute about that and we all agree that the present complications cause great difficulties. However, simply to pick a random month in the summer and to project forward from then is no solution. It is merely yet another arbitrary decision on top of many other such decisions which have caused the present complications with the RSG.
  The proposal takes away an element of flexibility and local control, and that is particularly damaging. I want to cite a local example of that. As many hon. Members will be aware, my district council, Carrick district council, had to deal with the problems caused by flooding a few weeks ago. No budget was set aside to cover that, but councillors locally and in Truro decided to put money aside to deal with the problem. By supplying drying machines to people who were terribly affected by the floods, they had to put aside money for which no allowance had been made. Under the proposed system as I understand it, the flexibility to take such local decisions will be greatly reduced because the financial impact of taking them will be increased greatly.
  The position is made worse by the poll tax, because those elements of extra spending will hit the ratepayer four times harder than they might otherwise have done. If there is no possibility of RSG contributing towards that as it is adjusted in the light of councils' experience of natural disasters, for example, we will reduce councillors' abilities to respond to that type of local difficulty.
  Mr. Gummer: I do not follow the hon. Gentleman. If the expenditure was greater than the expected budget, there might have been a penalty previously. Under the arrangements that we have presented now, that penalty will not take place. The hon. Gentleman's local authority in those circumstances, if they are as he presented them, should be better off. Taking one year with another across the board, we have tried to meet the concerns. However, the hon. Gentleman's worry is imagined.
  Mr. Taylor: I do not believe that the Minister is correct in the case that I have cited. He misses the point that previously the council could have expected to get part of that money back through the rate support grant system in future years as the actual expenditure was accounted for. Under the poll tax, more of that expenditure which the council must deal with locally will multiply into poll tax and so hit the local ratepayer harder and harder.
  Mr. Gummer: I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman has got that quite right. If his local authority is sensible, as I am sure he thinks it is, he will find that, because of the new needs basis for grant, instead of it being penalised because other authorities have been big spenders and attracted more grant proportionately than perhaps they should have, his council will get a grant based on its needs.

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  If the hon. Gentleman is talking about real needs, he will find that the grant meets those needs. The community charge can be charged at a standard rate around the country. I think that he will find that, under the community charge, because it is a community charge and not a poll tax—that is why I always argue the case—the effect is exactly the opposite. He should look at this again because it is important that we argue about things about which we disagree rather than about something upon which in the end he will agree with me.
  Mr. Taylor: Obviously we cannot finalise the argument now. Perhaps we can take it up in correspondence. However, where councils have to deal with unexpected events and put aside money which was not planned for or could not have been planned for, councils will be hit harder in future rather than hit less hard, as the Minister suggests.
  There is no dispute that some local authorities will be hit by the proposal and others will be windfall gainers. The explanatory memorandum to the Bill shows that the Government are not certain which way it will go. It states:
  "As a result the aggregate amount of block grant payable for the years 1985–86 to 1989–90 may be more or less than if block grant entitlements were based on total expenditure."
  As that is a move away from flexibility which would allow local decision makers a say in their budgeting, it is an interesting irony that there are changes happening at the moment in Bradford. There have been substantial changes in Bradford's policy over the past few days.
  On 7 July 1988 Bradford was controlled by the Labour party. The Tories inherited the expenditure levels as of 7 July 1988, but are now undertaking massive changes of policy to make drastic cuts. The straitjacket that the Government are imposing, whatever the Tories in Bradford do from now on, however many cuts they make and whatever savings they make, means that they will receive the same amount of RSG. They will not receive back the RSG taken from them for previous overspending. They will be affected like some other councils about which we have already heard which will lose the advantages of previous expenditure cuts. In other words, Bradford will be penalised permanently by this Government for the Labour administration's decisions on expenditure, whatever cuts are made.
  A noticeable part of this legislation is the increase in revenue that will accrue back to the Treasury. We have heard different figures for that. The Minister claimed that the reason for parts of the money aspects of the Bill was that the Government are afraid that they might not get money back and actually might put out more money. The fear remains—and this is the strong belief of people in local government to whom I have spoken—that, in effect, there will-be a net outflow from local authorities of cash which has been built up over the years which they might expect to receive, but with the Treasury benefiting when the local authorities must accept extra costs associated with Government legislation, including the poll tax. Some local authorities could have expected reduced expenditure to bring back some of the extra grant that they have lost.
  Both Wolverhampton and Merton reduced expenditure and believed that they would receive additional grants as a result. They have been two-timed by the Government. Wolverhampton expected £2 million additional grant from
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  expenditure reductions in 1987–88 and 1988–89 which are now lost. Merton's final accounts incorporate expenditure reductions of £15 million for which no additional grant will be forthcoming.
  Those are the kinds of problems and unfairnesses inflicted by the Bill's rigidity. Were the Government to have introduced this Bill after the Queen's Speech, we might have had more time to consult to ensure that such problems did not arise.
  Mr. Barry Field: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how tenants of GLC retirement homes were two-timed by the Liberal-controlled borough council which played politics rather than making progress and looking after people by turning its face against the purchase of GLC retirement homes on the Isle of Wight? As a result, those homes now belong to North British Housing Association and the rents are increasing considerably. Many Conservative-controlled district councils negotiated with the GLC and bought in the local GLC homes to the considerable advantage of the local population.
  Mr. Taylor: I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman used GLC homes as an example of how the Government's policy is right. There are GLC homes in my constituency. The hon. Gentleman said that houses had been bought by a housing association. The pensioners in those properties are now suffering the consequences of massive rent increases. Had those homes stayed in the public sector, and had the London Residuary Body not sold them, that would not have happened. I receive a constant flow of pensioners who are bitter about the way in which the Government have let them down. They are bitter because the Government abolished the GLC, maintaining that that was power to the people as it would help them. Those pensioners now have to pick up the tab.
  Mr. Madden: There have been many references made in this debate to Bradford. Does the hon. Gentleman know that Tories there are now saying to council tenants on the Lower Grange estate that they can have no hope of new council homes being built on that estate, which is something that they have been promised for many years? Those tenants have been given an ultimatum that they must either co-operate with a housing association in developing that estate or the houses will be allowed to become derelict and the land sold to private developers. That is the kind of Tory democracy that is now confronting tenants of a Bradford council estate: "Either you co-operate with a housing association or you will not have a new home in the foreseeable future."
  Mr. Taylor: The hon. Member gives a good example of the way in which tenants are frightened by the implications of the Bill in terms of rent and the development of their properties. Those councils that would like to act are hamstrung by the kind of expenditure controls we are debating today.
  Some authorities will lose while others will gain. The outcome will be arbitrary because the Bill's provisions are not sufficiently flexible and cannot meet local needs in the way that local authorities can respond to them. The Minister repeatedly defended his actions by giving the example of a small number of councils that were not exercising proper management. The Bill itself is not exercising proper management in Government terms in

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  respect of the vast majority of councils that will be affected. Some of them will be hit by these proposals, while others may gain in an arbitrary way simply because those councils that have tried to work the Government system, to manage matters sensibly, to look to the future and create some stability, are having the rug pulled from under their feet now that a different system is being imposed upon them.
  When the Secretary of State for the Environment made his announcement on 7 July, he stated that he proposed to set a level of 4·7 per cent. for next year's settlement for England. He said:
  "That increase is slightly above the anticipated level of inflation."—[Official Report, 7 July 1988; Vol. 136, c. 1200.]
  The country's "anticipated level of inflation" is rapidly changing and I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may be coming to the House tomorrow to give the House an update. I use the word "update" advisedly. May the House be given a guarantee by Ministers that a degree of flexibility will be exercised by the Government in matching the needs of councils under a changing inflation rate?
  What special efforts will the Government make in respect of the extra costs that central Government often impose on local authorities, which in turn increase their costs above the general rate of inflation? If account is not taken of that aspect, the Government's promise that the new system will be more helpful to local authorities, will more closely match their needs, and will give them a long-term ability to plan will not be fulfilled.
  I look forward with interest to hearing the Minister's response at the end of this debate.
  6.22 pm
  Mr. Robin Squire: I begin by apologising to my own and the Opposition Front Bench if I am slightly delayed in returning to hear the closing speeches. If I miss the beginning of them, I shall read those speeches in Hansard, and certainly my hon. Friend the Minister can be assured that 1 shall be joining her in the Lobby in support of the Government.
  I welcome, however belatedly, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning to these rather arcane matters. I believe that this is his first local government Bill. He may well hope that it is his only local government Bill. Many of his predecessors thought the same, but over the years they found in practice a substantial chunk of legislation being introduced. I speak as someone who has served on not a few of the Standing Committees.
  This is a promising measure. It is not as large as its putative dad—the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980—but it bears reasonable comparison with the Local Government Finance Act 1982, to which I shall also refer, because it has certain family links.
  A wave of nostalgia started to come over me when I heard my right hon. Friend imply that this is a simple little measure. I turned immediately to page 14, schedule 2 to the Bill, where, in paragraph 4(3), the formula for arriving at expenditure levels is given:
  "In the case of an authority which is a charging authority but is not an education authority the appropriate formula is—
  (TE x Z) + CC."
  As experts in this kind of debate, we can all tell my right hon. Friend that we know such things off by heart, and that it is only the world outside which wrongly finds them a fraction confusing.
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  That was not the only element of nostalgia. For one moment in my right hon. Friend's speech, I thought that I detected phrases such as, "This is going to be a better system," and "This system will measure need as never before." 1 believe my right hon. Friend and that it will do so. However, I must utter a solemn warning. The last time that I can remember almost those exact words being uttered in this Chamber was when the then Secretary of State for the Environment introduced what became the local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980, when we were also told that it would "measure need as never before." I invite other right hon. and hon. Members to say whether it did. In case my tight hon. Friend the Minister does not recall who the Secretary of State was, I can tell him that it was my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine). There must be a warning there for all of us.
  As to block grants, which were at the heart of the 1980 Act, I have a confession to make, at least to newer Members of the House, because my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Beaumont-Dark) and I were the only Conservative Members who voted against that measure.
  Mr. Redwood: Tut, tut.
  Mr. Squire: I shall pretend that I did not hear that noise from my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood).
  If these are not the last rites, then this is the semi-final stage in recognising that the percipience shown by my hon. Friend the Member for Selly Oak and myself in 1980 is receiving its due reward and that a system that was never likely to stand up to the strains that we were bound to place upon it is now admitted to be a fallible and failing system that needs to he removed. I have no regrets about the disappearance of block grants.
  The Bill in general is a fairly ordinary transitional measure, although, as right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have pointed out, there is bound to be an element of rough justice when one says that, after a fixed date, one will work to a slightly different system. That would be memorable and worthy of comment only if it could be said that the present system has, by and large, delivered other than rough justice over the past eight years. Most of my hon. Friends and a number of Opposition Members would undoubtedly claim that the system has neither rewarded virtue nor necessarily penalised vice—if only we could say that it had—but the element of rough justice has been there from the very beginning, and it is certainly continued in this Bill.
  I cannot complain about that, but I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will bear in mind the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire), that if, as a consequence of the Bill, one or more authorities obviously suffer financially in a major way, he will give that matter his consideration. At present, nobody knows what the outturn will be in two to three years' time, but it must be right in principle that local authorities are answerable more to their electorate and less to the Government.
  I welcome the statement that the Bill should also reduce the scope for creative accountancy. It may be claimed that it will remove such scope; I prefer the word "reduce." Speaking as a former local authority finance chairman back in the mid-1970s, in the days when one could still

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  discuss in public the fact that one proposed leasing the odd item or two, I am sorry that some of the flexibility that used to attend local authority funding is no longer there. None the less, the system has been tightened up for a number of reasons, the main one being that a very small number of authorities are going way beyond what we might reasonably have accepted as being the ordinary to-ing and fro-ing between parties, which has provoked the inevitable response.
  Mr. Tony Banks: The hon. Gentleman is very learned and wise in the ways of local government. It is a pity that his Front-Bench colleagues did not listen to him more often in the past. If they had done so, they might not have made so many mistakes.
  The hon. Gentleman was a finance chair in the mid-1970s. Does he agree that at that time central Government interfered far less in the financial affairs of local authorities, and that made it unnecessary for local authorities to become involved in creative accounting?
  Mr. Squire: Some marvellous suggestions are being put to me. First, I should upset some of my colleagues if I did not say that I was a chairman rather than a chair.
  Let me turn to the hon. Gentleman's substantive point. According to my memory of 1975–76, the doors came down with a dirty great clang and every local authority suffered as a result of IMF borrowing. The hon. Gentleman may be right in saying that the details of control between central Government and local authorities were very different—and, of course, there was a very different financial system—but the impact of that Labour Government and the cuts required in one year were way beyond anything contemplated either under the present Government or—as it seems to be the flavour of the night—by Bradford council.
  My next point concerns the abolition of certainty of grant entitlement. The key benefit of the system to local authorities will be that before each financial year they will know the exact amount of their grant. That, too, sets certain bells ringing in my long memory. Some people will remember a little measure called the Local Government Finance Act 1982. Its centrepiece at one stage was to be something called "mid-term holdback". I suspect that my right hon. Friend's advisers in the Civil Service will have been kind to him in his first few months and will not yet have tried to bounce mid-term holdback on him. If they have not, he will find, if he looks again at the record of our past discussions, that there was an attempt to ensure that local authorities would not be able to know at the beginning of each year how much income they would receive. That was scheduled to be part of the 1982 measure, but it fell among thieves in Committee. I speak as one of the aforementioned offenders. When the Act emerged that provision was no longer part of it. I am delighted that we recognise the importance of local authorities being able to plan ahead and being certain about their budgets.
  I do not wish to say too much about Bradford, because it might then become the flavour of the year. I do not, of course, object to hon. Members who represent the area putting their case as forcefully as they can. But, as a former finance chairman and leader of the council, I must say that if cuts of 1 or 2 per cent. are being discussed—I shall give
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  way if the figure is dramatically different—that is something less than catastrophe. It is very much less than the cuts imposed across the board by the Labour Government in 1976. Let me also make the obvious point that if Bradford council's actions turn out in practice to be as unpopular as was suggested by the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), the political consequences will be plain. My own feeling from what I have read so far is that they may turn out to be surprisingly popular among the majority of the electorate.
  Let me conclude my—I hope—shortish speech by reaffirming my belief in local government, whether we are talking about Bradford or about local authorities in general. That bears some resemblance to the sentiments of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), who rightly said that independent local government is an essential part of the structure of government. By that I mean a council that is able to determine its own priorities—they must not be imposed on it—and is able to raise a substantial chunk, if not all, of its revenue from the local people to whom it must ultimately be accountable.
  With those words, I give the Bill my best wishes and commend it to the House.
  6.34 pm
  Mr. Robert Litherland: We have heard several references to the needs of various authorities, and the assessment of those needs. I find it rather bewildering, because I could not assess the needs of Sheffield, Bradford or Newham. I have always thought that that is what local authorities are there to do—to assess the needs of their areas. I can give my views on an area that I know—Manchester.
  Let us look at the history of Manchester, which is a core city. Since 1961 there has been a rapid drop in its population. The younger and more able, the more professional and probably the more affluent have moved to the suburbs, the green belt and the new towns. With the advent of more cars, they are now able to commute into the city. In 1961 the population was 657,000; in 1987 it was 450,000.
  People are still leaving the city, but for different reasons. They are now leaving in search of jobs. In desperation, some are even emigrating. Left behind are the less skilled, the disabled, the elderly—all of them dependent on the welfare services provided by the local authority. On top of that Manchester must still provide for the funding of its libraries, its art centres, the Hallé orchestra, its theatres and all the amenities expected of a major city.
  In the past few years, however, there have been vicious rate cutbacks, on central Government's assessment. The only people who are really affected are the ordinary people of Manchester, the very same people who were dealt a humiliating blow as manufacturing industry shed thousands of workers, and closures brought in their wake family breakups, more medical referrals and even suicides. But the most tragic expression of deprivation is the high premature death rate.
  Deprivation in the inner city meant more demand for local authority welfare services, but those services were diminishing because of the lack of Government support. Then along came the cuts in benefits, and we now have the problem of a poll tax. The effect is manifest in the present

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  poverty in Manchester. A recent report highlighted the number of people who lack or are even denied resources that should be accepted as essential—resources for heating, indoor toilets, damp-free homes, beds for everyone in the household, clothing and nutritious food. Those are hardly the luxuries of life.
  A recent survey shows that about 30,000 people in Manchester live in homes without essential heating; about 20,000 homes are affected by damp; about 80,000 people do not sit down to a roast joint or its equivalent once a week because they cannot afford it; approximately 20,000 households contain at least one person who lacks a warm waterproof coat; and nearly half Manchester's residents are unable to afford a week's holiday away from home other than by staying with relatives.
  Those are real needs and they should be assessed by the local authorities. If a local authority wishes to raise revenue to meet those needs, it should be able to do so. The democratic procedure is already there. If the rates are put up and the voters do not like it, they have something called a ballot box. They can kick out any councillor or Member of Parliament, if they so wish.
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett: Is it not true that in Manchester only 25 per cent. of the voters pay rates?
  Mr. Litherland: I do not know where the hon. Gentleman gets that figure from. He probably thinks that council tenants do not pay rates, but that is a red herring. The notion that one section of the community keeps another section is wrong. The truth is completely different.
  The survey was based on "Breadline Britain." It set out the minimum standards of living that are considered to be acceptable and a list of the necessities that provide a reasonable standard of living. One of the criteria was whether people are able to afford the basic necessities of life or whether they have to go without. The survey found that 54 per cent. of households with at least one person unemployed in the household cannot afford three or four of the necessities of life, that one-parent families are particularly at risk and that one half of black and Asian householders go without three or more essential items because they cannot afford them. It also found that 29 per cent. of pensioners living alone are poor, that a high proportion of them are in deep poverty and that they cannot afford five or more essential items.
  The survey found that 40 per cent. of households that include a person with a disability or long-standing health problems are living in poverty, that council tenants are three times more likely to be living in poverty than owner-occupiers and that large families are especially vulnerable. It found that in Manchester 36 per cent. of large families are poor. Most of these people are accumulating big debts. They are falling victim to the loan sharks. That is job creation; the Government probably regard it as private enterprise. To be in debt, however, and in the hands of unscrupulous individuals only compounds the misery of the people of Manchester.
  The lives of the majority of the people of Manchester are drab and fall far below average expectations. Mancunians, however, are independent. All they ask is to be treated as members of a civilised society. They have not developed a dependency culture. All that they want to do is to work so that they can obtain the necessities of life that will give back to them the dignity that they enjoyed years ago.
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  The Government could assist by providing realistic funding for local authority activities, just to help to ease the inequalities of life. However, if it is a Labour-controlled local authority the Government say that its activities must be curbed. The Conservatives sell off cemeteries for peanuts, buy them back with ratepayers' money and nothing is said. That is creative accountancy, but Labour local authority power or trade union power has to be crushed. That is the kind of sinister centralisation that is going on now. I used to be a Manchester councillor. I would not want to be a councillor now, because in future councils will be central Government agencies.
  Mr. Churchill: Will the hon. Member give way?
  Mr. Litherland: No. The hon. Gentleman has only just walked into the Chamber. I have been here since 3.30 pm.
  My hon. Friends have referred to the inequalities of life. There is a report in The Guardian today of a London insurance broker who makes £5,500 a day. It says:
  "Mr. Bill Brown, chairman of Walsham Brothers insurance brokers, earns more than £2 million a year."
  What sort of society can accept that standard of living while it stands by and sees the elderly dying of hypothermia and children going without proper meals? That is a sick society—greedy and lacking in compassion. Only a sick Government would heap more injustices on ordinary people. I can refer only to the people of Manchester, but I am sure that every Opposition Member could refer to what he sees and hears in his local authority's advice bureau and would reach the same conclusion.
  6.44 pm
  Mr. John Redwood: I welcome the transitional system that is outlined in the Bill and the new system to which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning referred in his opening speech. I hope that the new system will define need fairly simply and that it will relate it to the number of people in different age categories. I hope that it will also take into account the fact that, while some councils are experiencing a constant migration of people, as we have just heard is happening in Manchester, and feel that their needs are special, other councils that are attracting enterprise, prosperity and new business have to spend money on providing the infrastructure and services that are necessary to receive those people and provide homes, roads and other facilities for them. I hope that their needs will also be taken into account.
  When my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State replies to the debate, I hope that she will answer one question that I could not work out from the statement. If a relatively low-spending council is none the less over grant-related expenditure and therefore out of grant, will it be eligible under the transitional arrangements for some of the money that is to be provided towards the cost of the community charge? All councils will have to face that cost, whatever their position may be in relation to GRE. Some of the councils that are out of grant have run their affairs prudently. If other pressures are reflected in their budgets, that does not mean that they have been feckless with ratepayers' money.
  I hope that the transitional system will continue to take into account the way in which some councils have been squandering their cash. Reference has already been made

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  to some of the excesses. Not many years ago the Leader of the Opposition felt that he had to intervene in the then state of Labour local government and castigate one of the great bastions or fortresses of Socialist local government, Liverpool. He reminded Liverpool council that it did not become it well if councillors were seen scuttling around in taxis paying out redundancy money to staff who had been recruited not very long ago during the council's great spending splurge.
  To those of us who hoped that that might represent the nadir of Labour local government, it is ironical that we should now be witnessing events in Brent where things seem to have come to an even sorrier pass than they did in Liverpool only a few years ago. When grants and rate capping are looked at again by Ministers, I hope that they will ask Brent council hard questions. I hope that they will ask why rubbish is uncollected and lying in the streets and why ratepayers are not being given even the basic standard of service that they have a right to expect from that local authority, even though the spending seems to be going on at an ever-increasing rate.
  Mr. Tony Banks: If the hon. Gentleman considers the impact of this Bill on the London borough of Brent, he will see that it is to be one of the major losers. The Bill means that it will lose £9 million.
  Mr. Redwood: I am glad that the Minister has already heard my point. Brent deserves to lose money because it has been wasting it profligately.
  To turn to the flavour of this debate, Bradford council, we see what happens when there is a change of control, albeit by a very slender majority that upsets the opposition. A large number of savings were immediately identified and budget plans were changed. What are to go? Not essential services—the collection of rubbish or housing repairs—but the unnecessary excesses of a large number of committees. The awful waste on the women's committee and the equal opportunities committee will go; so will the racial officers—things for which the public are not clamouring. They want their basic local government services to be delivered well. It is high time that Labour councils recognised that fact.
  Mr. Cryer: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the picture he has painted of Bradford is completely distorted and inaccurate? The so-called savings by the Tory clique, marginally in office by the lord mayor's casting vote, include £3 million on education and community centres where elderly people meet socially in the afternoon. There has been widespread pressure from ordinary people to keep community centres, but they have been attacked by the Tory council. It is not a question of just a few committees. The budget savings are a massive attack on the people of Bradford.
  Mr. Redwood: I am not sure that the people of Bradford will agree. The Conservative administration has said that it will provide the basic services that are needed and will provide services of a better quality and standard for less cash. All Conservative Members welcome that.
  I should like to make a plea to Ministers when they come to consider, yet again, the system of capital expenditure and controls on it. Conservative Members —and possibly others—want to encourage councils to
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  continue the sale of unwanted assets, such as houses and flats, to those who want to buy them and who are now being given the opportunity to do so at prices that they can afford. Councils that have done that but that have not run up big bills which result in large debts should be free to spend a reasonable proportion of those capital receipts. Ministers should consider introducing an external financial limit which would hit and penalise spendthrift local authorities which overborrow, but would leave incentives for well-run authorities that receive capital from receipts, particularly from the sale of houses.
  I welcome the transitional arrangements. Anything that can be done to make local government genuinely accountable and to make local authorities concentrate on the high quality services that they should provide at a low cost is be welcomed.
  6.52 pm
  Mr. Alun Michael: I want to persuade the Minister that at least one element of the Bill is improper and should be withdrawn. The Bill has been introduced in an atmosphere of rush and panic and is being pushed through with inordinate haste. It is supported by Conservative Members who are of the rabid Right and who show no respect for local government.
  By contrast, I, too, have been the chairman of a local authority finance committee, and I agreed with the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) when he regretted the degree to which freedom of operation has been taken away from local authorities. The apparent simplicity of the Bill is open to question, in view of the Government's record of mindless attacks on local government. However, none of that is my target tonight.
  I want to challenge the Minister on the constitutional impropriety in the Bill, which I urge him to correct. My speech could be ended now by an offer from the Minister or the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales —who, I regret to say, is not here, but whose constituency, like mine, will be affected by the theft of £3·5 million from Cardiff city council and South Glamorgan county council. I was chairman of the finance committee of Cardiff city council, and I believe that we should aim for a system that meets the slogan of "no taxation without comprehension", as the Minister suggested. That is an excellent aim, but fairness is also essential and cannot include the moving of goalposts long after the game is over.
  In his introduction, the Minister made great play of the offer of certainty for the future. Another biblical quotation that will probably not be understood by "She who must be obeyed" is,
  "by their fruits, ye shall know them".
  I hope that Ministers will listen with care to my evidence. I welcome the Secretary of State for Wales to the experience of hearing that evidence, and hope that he and other Ministers will change their minds on this point at least, if only so that Ministers are seen to keep faith with the House.
  Clause 1(8)(b) of the Bill refers to the retrospective operation of arrangements in Wales. Paragraph 3 of schedule 1 relates to arrangements for 1987–88. Paragraph 4(2) refers to the relevant amount in terms of the calculation of the final grant as being "the amount submitted", which in that paragraph refers to estimated rather than actual expenditure. That contrasts starkly with the statements made in March 1987 by the then Secretary

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  of State for Wales and by the Secretary of State for the Environment, that what mattered was a local authority's actual expenditure.
  I refer to their statements of 13 March 1987 and 16 March 1987, respectively. What was said to the House—not just in correspondence—was that ultimately the grant paid to a local authority in respect of the year would depend on what the authority actually spent. That is perfectly simple and clear. It is without ambiguity, and it should be adhered to. The rule has nothing to do with estimates, as the Minister tried to suggest earlier in response to my intervention; it has to do with the money spent.
  The July statement to the House changed the rule without notice. In case Ministers are in any doubt about it, let me underline the incontrovertible evidence on this point. The Secretary of State for Wales has been told of Cardiff city council's profound dismay regarding the implications of the statement to the House on 7 July whose terms are incorporated in the Bill. The March 1987 report said:
  "Essentially relevant expenditure is the total of revenue expenditure properly debited by a local authority to the general rate fund revenue account."
  The Secretary of State told Parliament that he intended that the settlement for 1987–88 should give the further certainty of ensuring that each authority's grant entitlement would depend "solely" —I emphasise that—on its own spending decisions and would not be affected by decisions taken by other authorities. Are the ministerial statements about certainty made earlier today as dependable as that statement? If so, they are not worth the air into which they were spoken.
  Cardiff city council accepted those statements in good faith as made by the Secretary of State to Parliament in accordance with the law. As a result, substantial reductions were made in the council's expenditure. There were reductions in staffing levels; staff were retired early and departments were amalgamated. As a result of the economies by the council actual expenditure in 1987–88 was reduced to some £1·3 million below the Government's own guideline figures. Those reductions in expenditure were made in the full knowledge and expectation that they would attract substantial extra grant from central Government. They were measures of substance, and in some instances affected the services provided by the city council. They involved no superficial accounting measures such as transfers from funds or other measures of short-term expediency. In other words, they involved none of the expedients to which the Minister referred in response to my earlier intervention. They were reductions in costs within the spirit and the letter of the announcement by the Secretary of State.
  There was astonishment and anger on the part of everyone concerned when it was learnt that the Secretary of State proposed arbitrarily and retrospectively that the grant calculations would be made on the basis of information with the Welsh Office by midnight on the day preceding the July statement. The statement was made despite the fact that the relevant forms seeking information about actual expenditure in 1987–88 were not received from the Welsh Office until 29 June, and those forms stated that information should be submitted by 31 July. Those clearly defined goalposts were moved in the statement.
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  I emphasise that the city council's financial accounts for 1987–88 were closed early in June, and the final position reported to the finance committee on 16 June—three weeks before the announcement by the Secretary of State. If he had requested the information even a day or two in advance of the statement, it could have been provided. If a reasonable deadline had been given, it would have been met. It will be unfair to the citizens of Cardiff if the statement in July is interpreted as it appears to have been interpreted in the Bill. I repeat what I said before the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales entered the Chamber: his constituency, like mine, will be affected by the decisions, which constitute a theft of £3·5 million from the ratepayers of Cardiff.
  Mr. Paul Flynn: Is my hon. Friend aware that many constituencies in other parts of the country will be similarly affected? For example, Newport in Gwent, which is a good authority, with a fine reputation for providing good services at good value prices, reduced its expenditure by £600,000, but now finds itself in precisely the same position as Cardiff city council. It is about to be cheated by the Government.
  Mr. Michael: I agree; and I know that Newport has been efficient. Ministers should accept that, when decisions are taken efficiently and in good faith, the Government should respect them and their outcome.
  The arguments that I have advanced were put to the Welsh Office, which suggested that Cardiff city council could have reported the level of outturn. Such figures could have been provided earlier, but a target is not an achievement. It is nonsense to insist on targets being the measure. Secondly, the level of outturn was not what the Government said would be the test. The test that the Government laid down was the total of actual expenditure. It is clear that past practice was to calculate grant on the basis of returns in the forms which show the revenue outturn. Those forms were not sent out until 29 June, and their return by 1 August was requested.
  If Welsh Office Ministers wanted those outturn figures by midnight on 6 July, it would have been open to them to have said so when the forms were sent out. I am certain that that requirement could and would have been met.
  If Ministers now say that what matters for calculating grant is estimated outturn rather than actual outturn, presumably it would have been open to a local authority to have grossly underestimated likely expenditure, to claim substantially extra grant on the basis of it, and still to overspend without suffering any penalty. That seems the logical consequence of what the Minister said, but it would have been complete nonsense and a travesty of justice.
  In any event, our local authorities did not resort to such subterfuges. They simply provided the correct information in the form in which the Government requested it. In his statement of 29 July, when he wrote to the Welsh Office, the city treasurer said:
  "the Council's reduction in costs did not involve transfers from funds or other such financial expediencies, and … the Council would be happy for the District Auditor to check that that is true."
  What better safeguard is there? Since July, efforts have been made to put the simple facts before officials in the Welsh Office. I hope that Ministers will take account of the representations and evidence that is being presented to them and, during the Bill's passage through Parliament, change at least this element in the Bill.

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  When the Secretary of State announced the 1987–88 rate support grant settlement, he drew attention to the fact that, by reducing expenditure, local authorities could earn extra grant. We must say that the Secretary of State is going back on that undertaking. That is unacceptable and highly questionable.
  The problem is that the conclusive calculation of grant will be based not on authorities' actual spending and decisions—which Conservative Members have told us for the past hour or two is how it should be calculated—but on an artificial basis. The outturn has tended previously to be below revised estimates, so the Government could have expected to have to disburse extra grant. Is this a calculated attempt to avoid being fair and to avoid following accepted practice? Surely not.
  Authorities may take decisions in good faith which affect their expenditure and block grant entitlement. Some authorities could have undertaken interim valuations on superannuation funds or taken account of reduced employers' contributions in their revised estimates. Others may have decided not to take them into account until the law was clearer, but have done so when closing their accounts. Why should authorities be dealt with differently because they are more prudent when drawing conclusions on figures?
  If the Minister wants to pursue his stated purpose without unfairness and without constitutional impropriety, he is being offered a way out. First, when an authority has, by 7 July, already approved its accounts as minuted by a meeting of the full council or the appropriate committee or sub-committee, grant entitlement should be based on total expenditure as contained in the approved accounts and certified by the external auditor. Secondly, when an authority has not approved its final accounts by 7 July, grant entitlement should be based on final expenditure as certified by the external auditor. Either course could exclude the effects of changes in capital financing policies, in accounting practice and of transfers from funds, so all the points that the Minister made earlier in response to my intervention could be met.
  I shall not go into futher detail, but I am convinced that the council's case is overwhelming. If Ministers are unable to respond now, they should read the details with fair minds. I am sure that they will be convinced. The Minister referred several times to the figures received by 7 July and said that if the period was open ended it would allow changes to be made in retrospect. It is the Government who, if they push the Bill through unamended, will be guilty of such practice. The Minister failed to deal with the unfair penalty put on councils, which will have depended on the assurance of Cabinet Ministers that it is actual expenditure that counts.
  In his introduction today the Minister said that we should have certainty about the results of certain actions but, in its present form, the Bill tells local authorities, "Do not trust Ministers, even when they come bearing an offer of certainty." Certainty was offered, but it is being stolen by the Bill. There is every likelihood of a legal challenge to the Government because moving the goalposts in this way is so questionable. We are used to the Government moving the goalposts in the middle of the match, which is bad enough, but in this case the posts have been moved long
  718
  after the match has ended. Moreover, the goal scorers, who have left the field, are being told that their win has been redefined as a defeat.
  I am distressed at the Government's onslaught, which has gone on for several years, on local authorities. The Bill takes money from local authorities once again, but my criticism goes much deeper than that. I question the constitutional propriety of the Bill in its present form. I criticise a Bill which seems to legitimise a retrospective adjustment, despite promises made in the House by Cabinet Ministers. I object to a Bill that steals from local authorities assurances that have been given by Cabinet Ministers. I resent a Bill that takes money from local authorities that have observed, met and even done better than the Government's own targets and requirements.
  I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Wales will recognise and support my description of Cardiff city council and South Glamorgan county council. It is accurate. I appeal to Ministers to withdraw from the Bill the element on which I have concentrated and to restore at least a modicum of fairness and propriety. I ask Ministers to recognise the simplicity, logic and justice of my plea. If they fail to deal with it today, I ask them at least to concede the point and to amend the Bill during its passage through Parliament.
  7.8 pm
  Mr. Peter Thurnham: I welcome the Bill, which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning introduced so excellently. I absolutely reject the criticisms made of it by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker). He criticised the Government for introducing a Bill in the spill-over session and said that he had analysed other Bills that were introduced in the spill-over.
  I cannot think of a better time for the Government to introduce such a Bill as it deals with the problem of spill-over—the spill-over of expense and the use of creative accounting to allow councils to distort their spending pattern and make it appear as though they qualify for a larger grant. It is important to introduce a Bill such as this now so that we can ensure an orderly transition to the community charge. The Bill will stop some of the games of deferring expenditure. If companies use creative accounting, it catches up with them in the following financial year, if not in the same one. With councils, however, there was obviously an opportunity to try to dodge the issue until the community charge came into operation.
  The great advantage of the community charge is that it is so much simpler, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) said. I have never been able to understand the rate support grant system. I understand that it had to be worked out on a computer in America, because no computer in this country was big enough and fast enough to calculate all the complexities of the present system. Everyone, whether or not they understand the system, must be very glad to see the end of it and the introduction of the new system which is based on an assessment of needs. That must be the right and proper method, carried out in a simple way so that each local authority throughout the country charged exactly the same community charge of approximately £200 per head if spending were on a level basis.
  Bolton council is calculated to have a figure of £228 for 1988–89—£26 above the national average. I hope that the

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  council will introduce greater efficiencies now, and not wait until 1990 when the full impact of additional expenses will be clear and the community charge for each local authority can be compared.
  The new system is much fairer. What could be fairer than everybody paying the same? Obviously, when the system is changed there will be some gainers and some losers, and the losers will not see it in that way. I point out to those who feel that they will be paying more that the alternative would have involved a revaluation. Independent surveys have shown that those who would lose most would include the owners of small terraced properties in the north and those houses which have had central heating fitted since 1973. The notion that how much one should py towards a local authority depends upon how many radiators one has in one's house shows the absurdity of the current system. When it is put in those terms, everyone must agree that the change to a fairer system must be right and proper, and that the old rating system will look as absurd as the window tax in the days when people had to block up their windows. I hope that anyone who has delayed installing central heating in his house will now feel that he can do so.
  There will be gainers in the areas where the business rate will fall. I am glad to note that in Bolton there will be an 8 per cent. reduction in the business rate and a £17 million gain to the council from the new way in which the business rate will be shared nationally. Therefore, the new system can be seen as a benefit to the north at the expense of the south and should be welcomed by hon. Members representing the north.
  There is the prospect of very exciting changes and developments in Bradford. I very much hope that many more councils will follow the route taken by Bradford in choosing a Conservative council which will bring in much-needed efficiencies and economies, a whole new way of running the council and a wholesale transfer of departments to the private sector wherever possible.
  The greatest change for councils when the full pressure of the community charge is brought to bear will be that they will have to be more efficient and conduct their businesses in much the same way as private firms have operated because they are in competition and cannot afford the inefficiencies which a local authority monopoly has allowed to build up over the years. There is enormous scope for improvement in Bradford. It is absolute nonsense to suggest that the people of Bradford will suffer. They will benefit from the changes. I am quite sure that at the next elections in Bradford there will be no need for the mayor to cast his vote because there will be a substantially increased Conservative majority. I hope that there will be the same increase in the Conservative vote in all councils in the country.
  7.14 pm
  Mr. Bob Cryer: I would be very pleased indeed if there were an opportunity to put the claims made by the hon. Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Thurnham) to the test in an election in Bradford, say next year. However, the truth is that the Government robbed the people of Bradford and other cities of an election when they abolished the metropolitan county councils in the major industrial conurbations in London
  720
  and other major cities. If they give us an election next year, I guarantee that Labour will sweep the board in Bradford and elsewhere.
  The Tories have sent a shockwave through the people of Bradford, because the Tory group has been taken over by a handful of political extremists who are now putting forward their politically noxious notions in a way that was never revealed to the voters in May or in the two recent by-elections. There was no mandate for the massive cuts that they propose. That was shown very strongly when 5,000 people demonstrated outside the city hall in Bradford against the proposed cuts. The local evening paper did a service for the community by comparing the proposals of the Tory clique with the claims in the Tory candidate's manifesto at the last by-election which slipped the Tories into power. It reached the conclusion that there was no hint, except in the most general, platitudinous, meaningless terms, of the massive cuts which the Tories are proposing.
  The Bill is about preparation for the poll tax. The actions of the Tories on Bradford council are in preparation for the poll tax. We are talking about a city in which there are more than 22,000 people on the dole and a total of 1,700 vacancies. The Tories propose to add 9,000 full-time and part-time jobs, but to create mass redundancies through cuts in education and community provision. A Conservative Member spoke about a narrow handful of committees. However, the three Labour Members representing Bradford have been inundated with requests from ordinary people who feel that their community centres are now hanging on a thread, subject to extinction and being kicked into the dust by the ruthless Tory clique on the local authority.
  Mr. Wilshire: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Cryer: No. I do not have the time, because I want to give my hon. Friends time to take part in the debate. Unlike the Tory Whips, we have not had to go round getting speakers. We have plenty to say.
  The Tories in Bradford are talking about cuts in education and in community provision. They are shoving up council rents by £3 a week and closing benefit shops that give advice to more than 50,000 people a year. I can give the House an example of what has happened. At a recent social security tribunal, two elderly men were represented in separate cases, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. One of the members of the tribunal told me that the 87-year-old man who wanted to improve his claim from the DHSS for payment to the private enterprise nursing home in which he had lived for more than 10 years because when his £500 savings had gone he would be thrown out could not possibly have represented his case without the benefit advice worker. Between the morning and afternoon cases, the benefit advice worker who had represented that case so proficiently was told that she would be made redundant as a result of the Bradford Tory cuts. That is the practical application of those ruthless measures. There will be charges for home helps, after such charges were removed by the Labour-controlled council. School meals are almost doubling in price, because one of the last decisions of the Labour council was to reduce school meal prices to the second lowest in the country.
  Bradford needs an injection of money from the Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) pointed out, the

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  legislation will mean a denial of £3·7 million to Bradford, yet again. Already local government officials from Bradford have pointed out that because of Government cuts over three years and the working of the multiplier Bradford has been denied £38 million. That sort of money would have helped to put Bradford on its feet. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall) said in a debate on 9 December 1987 —and the position has not changed—
  "More than 30 per cent. of Bradford's schools were built before 1906. Forty per cent. of Bradford's sewers are more than 100 years old and we have constant problems of collapsing sewers which require renovation or renewal. Our backlog of housing repairs amounts to some £130 million, representing the sum that we would receive in 10 years from the total housing investment programme for our city."— [Official Report, 9 December 1987; Vol.124, c. 513.]
  That is the scale of the problem. Cutting back will do nothing to alleviate it. In fact, it will worsen the problem and worsen the economic crisis in which Bradford finds itself.
  The Tories, instead of cutting back and acting as puppets of Thatcherism and Conservative Central Office, should be standing up to the pressure from the Government and arguing for more money for Bradford. An old industrial city needs a higher level of investment. For example, there are 500 temporary classrooms in our education system. We have expanding school rolls, unlike most major cities in our country. Money that has been allocated for increasing permanent accommodation has now to be used to repair temporary classrooms because they have been temporary for so long that they are sustaining damage that was never intended. That is the sort of problem that needs to be solved in Bradford.
  The Tories have written their death knell by the extremism of their views. The majority of Bradford people will never forgive them for their attack on the citizens and the fabric of a proud industrial city. As soon as there is an election we will run them out and put Labour back in control.
  7.23 pm
  Sir Marcus Fox: I was intrigued by the speech of the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer). He should be careful when he talks about Labour winning back local government seats. With his wafer-thin majority, he will be hard pressed to win his seat in Parliament at the next election. I remember when the hon. Gentleman was my neighbour in Keighley. It is a shame that his views have not changed since he left there. I welcomed his departure to Europe. In one way it is a shame that he is not still there. One would have thought that with his experience in the House over past years he would have a new message to give. That is not the case. He has learned nothing.
  I support the Bill. The present rate support grant system has outlived its usefulness and has to go. I welcome the orderly transition that is intended. It may be difficult because it is not based on actual spending. The Opposition love actual spending, not spending needs. I welcome the fact that, if our councils are prudent, they will know exactly where they stand.
  I hope that you will forgive me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I spend some time talking about Bradford. I have represented the area for longer than anyone in the House. The biggest problems I have to face are the hon. Members
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  for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall), for Bradford, South and for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden). They have done little to restore the fortunes of Bradford. Their policies have done the reverse. It is interesting that they still talk as if we have not had nine years of growth and expansion and as if things in the city were not considerably better than when their party was in government.
  I wish to mention another "moderate", the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). He has seen fit to draw the attention of the House to a conflict between my outside interests and my chairmanship of the Committee of Selection. I take great exception to that. I fulfill the duties placed on me by the House and declare all my interests. I find it objectionable that it has been suggested that after four years I cannot carry out the job for which I was elected. It is all supposition. If anyone wishes to raise a question about anything I do on that Committee, he is entitled to do so. It is within the power of the House to remove me.
  Mr. William O'Brien: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does this have anything to do with the Bill?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): This is a Second Reading debate and, conventionally, such debates are wide. However, the hon. Gentleman might be pressing matters a little.
  Sir Marcus Fox: The hon. Member for Workington raised the matter in the House again today and that is why I have referred to it.
  Mr. Cryer: Will the hon. Gentleman relate his comments to the Bill by telling us how much he receives from his 12 directorships and parliamentary consultancies to enable him to pay the poll tax in comparison with one of the employees of the privatised cleaning services company of which he is a director?
  Sir Marcus Fox: If the House, in its wisdom, decides that we should fill in our emoluments, I will do so. The companies in which I am involved provide thousands of jobs to enable people to pay the community charge. How many jobs has the hon. Gentleman provided outside?
  Mr. Hind: My hon. Friend knows that for eight years I went to school on the fringes of Bradford and for 10 years I worked in Bradford on many occasions. No doubt he will agree that the people who run down a community and constantly repeat what is wrong with it—I faced that problem with the Labour party in Skelmersdale—do that community no service.
  Sir Marcus Fox: I agree with my hon. Friend. The hon. Member for Bradford, South emphasised the point I am trying to make. It is the Labour party's antagonism to the private sector that I find objectionable. Labour Members know that the majority of their constituents work in the private sector, but they still have that attitude. That applies to local government and is why they are opposed to the Bill. They do not believe that the private sector can do anything to provide a better service for the ratepayers or community charge payers.
  The game is up for the Labour party in Bradford. It was rumbled. The money had run out and it had had years to do something about it. All ended in failure. The Labour party bought votes because 26,000 people are now employed by Bradford metropolitan council. Councillor

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  Pickles and his brave friends—I believe that they are brave —are talking about 2,500 job losses in five years through voluntary retirement and non-recruitment. How can that be said to be impossible? It is not impossible. We do a great disservice to people who have to pay the bill if we pretend that the number of job losses is larger than that, as some Labour Members have suggested. I have heard the figure of 9,000 mentioned. It is not correct.
  Mrs. Teresa Gorman: Does my hon. Friend agree that the burgeoning tourist industry in Bradford—I have been on a tour of the Bronte country which included Bradford—might absorb some of those people? The older citizens of Bradford who might be made redundant could act as guides to the interesting sights in and around the city.
  Sir Marcus Fox: I congratulate my hon. Friend on her sense. Of all the tourist attractions in the United Kingdom, Bradford is the fourth most popular. Labour Members say that things will not get better, but we have had a Conservative Government for some time and they will improve. The change of control in Bradford is long overdue.
  The hon. Member for Bradford, South mentioned extremists. He must have forgotten the people who have been ruling Bradford for the past few years. Indeed, one or two of his old friends from Keighley have been doing so, and by no manner of means could they be said to be supporters of the Leader of the Opposition. The hon. Gentleman is the last person who should speak of extremism.
  As I have said, the change of control in Bradford is welcome, but what did people expect? The idea that economies were to be made was news is nonsense. We stood by the Government's commitment to reduce costs for those who must pay. I wish that Labour Members would spend more time thinking of those who must foot the bill; it is all very well to demand more and more services if one does not have to pay rates or make a contribution. That has been a problem for many years.
  I admit a failing of a Conservative Government, which is unusual for me. Before we reorganised local government we should have reorganised local government finance. Had we done so, we might have made a better job of the boundary changes.
  Mr. Wall: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Sir Marcus Fox: I always give way, unlike the hon. Member for Bradford, North.
  Mr. Wall: I gave way to the hon. Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox). Is it not true that an all-party delegation from Bradford protested about the loss of £38 million in Government support, which was due mainly to the multiplier—a matter that I raised in the House last year? They demanded that the £38 million be paid to Bradford because it had never exceeded grant-related expenditure. Nevertheless, we lost that money. Had we not—enormous cuts have been made nationally in rate support grant—would it not have solved many of the problems facing Bradford's people?
  Sir Marcus Fox: Various Administrations have experienced much difficulty in deciding how the rate support grant should be worked out. Indeed, when I was a Minister at the Department of the Environment I think
  724
  that only three people understood it. It has never worked fairly, but it is always a good excuse to blame the rate support grant.
  Expenditure in Bradford is £300 million a year and it has debts of £350 million. We cannot claim to have been deprived, but there is still much to be done. The formula has been made clear not only in by-elections that we have won. In May, we won not only Bradford but a couple of seats in wards that were not Conservative controlled.
  Mr. Dennis Turner: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Sir Marcus Fox: The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr. Turner) is preventing other hon. Members from speaking by intervening.
  Mr. Turner: I am hoping to speak myself.
  The hon. Gentleman said that he was a Minister in a previous Government. Surely he studied all the information and reports from the borough of Dudley and the great city of Birmingham. What is being proposed is not new. We experienced the effects of the Conservatives' experiments with local government in Dudley. There was much talk of frontiers being broken down, yet it was an abysmal failure, and many problems arose in Birmingham. Surely the hon. Gentleman is not saying that this is a new revolution. If he is, the people of Bradford will be on their knees in the next few weeks.
  Sir Marcus Fox: I have considerable difficulty coping with my responsibilities as the Member for Shipley and with being involved with Bradford. I cannot possibly argue the case for Birmingham.
  Successive changes in financing local government have failed because they have encouraged spending. Despite increased money being given to local authorities, services have declined and demands have increased. I welcome the community charge because at long last it will get to grips with the problem.
  Competitive tendering, reductions in manpower and bureaucracy and performance related pay are not bad ideas. It is not a bad idea to get to grips with the introduction of the community charge in 1990. Why should it be deemed disgraceful that the new council in Bradford should be taking measures to try to make the community charge more acceptable? It is financial prudence; there is nothing secret about it. Opposition Members are concerned about those who have never paid rates, but if measures are taken that mean they will have to pay less in community charge they should welcome what is taking place in Bradford.
  The hon. Members for Bradford, North, Bradford, South and Bradford, West harped on about the sale of three old people's homes. They ignored the fact that several million pounds would have to be spent on those homes to bring them up to standards acceptable to the private and public sector. The only way in which that money could be found was by bringing in the private sector. Protection will be given to residents; they will not be turfed out or be any worse off than they are today. That assurance must be given, and in no way would a Conservative local authority embark on that road without making such provision.
  The citizens of Bradford metropolitan district are glad that change has come and are thankful that they do not live in Labour-controlled Camden or Brent.
  7.36 pm
  Mr. Tony BanksI am grateful to the hon. Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox) for putting me on so many interesting Committees. It was not until I read early-day motion 1526 that I realised he had so many outside jobs. My admiration for him increased when I realised that he is such a busy person. We should be grateful for the fact that he has found time to make his contribution this evening.
  I am pleased to see the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment in the Chamber. She is a welcome addition to the Front Bench, and it certainly needed some adornment.
  Mr. Cryer: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Banks: I was thinking of intellectual adornment. I should not have been thinking of anything else, as I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) appreciates.
  We have heard from two new Ministers today. The Government's new ploy is to change Environment Ministers, thus presenting moving targets and making it more difficult for us to get to them. I am sorry that two new political sacrifices are about to throw themselves on to the barbed wire of local government legislation. No doubt we shall be able to assist the Minister in the difficult times that she will face in the weeks ahead.
  It is a bit optimistic and cheeky, to put it mildly, for the Government to expect to get the Bill through in the carry-over period. I do not know whether anything has been said through the usual channels, but I expect that we shall have some hairy times with the Bill. I see no reason why it could not have waited until the new Session.
  The Minister said that the Bill would simplify the grant system for local authorities. Like other hon. Members, I echo the wish for a simpler system of local authority finance, which these days makes the oft-quoted Schleswig-Holstein question seem like something out of Blankety-Blank. A number of provisions in the Bill are iniquitous and inequitable. They will be bitterly opposed by Labour Members.
  The Minister said that the Bill would bring certainty as we move towards the new system. He encouraged us not to talk about the poll tax because he said that it had been settled. It might have been settled in the House, but it certainly has not been settled in the country as a whole. The poll tax will undoubtedly remain the central and most controversial issue in local government in the months and years ahead.
  The Minister said that we should not reopen the debate, and I do not intend to do so, but we cannot ignore the new system towards which we are moving. It is predictable that we should go towards that new system with a Bill that imposes on local authorities a retrospective set of injustices. The Bill's overall intention is to prevent grant entitlement varying with expenditure for the years 1985–86 to 1989–90 inclusive. The result will be that some local authorities will be left with windfall gains of grant, and other with unjustifiable and unpredictable losses.
  The Minister made a big issue of the end of the link between grant and expenditure, which will prevent local authorities from indulging in grant maximisation through creative accounting. Creative accounting has come in for much criticism in the House, with the Minister and Conservative Members attacking it. All that we have had
  726
  from them are the usual half-truths, caricatures and often downright lies about the way that creative accounting has been used in Labour authorities.I say "downright lies" because I know that Conservative Members have not deliberately set out to lie to the House, but have merely repeated the sorts of lies that have been published time and time again by the loony Right-wing press, such as The Sun, the Daily Mail and the Daily Express. It is amazing that Conservative Members are so lazy that they are not prepared to find out the truth about Labour-controlled local authorities in London and elsewhere. They merely reproduce the smears that are inflicted on local authorities by the press.
  Why do authorities go in for creative accounting? Is it because they find it the easiest thing in the world to do? Conservative Members have suggested that the only reason why Labour local authorities have become involved in creative accounting is to spend more money —on women's committees, police committees and gay and lesbian committees. Some have, and I welcome the fact that they have brought this new and necessary dimension into local government. Let us be clear: the amount of money that all local authorities together have spent on those various committees that cause so much offence to Conservative Members is peanuts in terms of the global sum of local authority public expenditure. It is no justification for these wholesale, regular changes in local authority finance and for this continual assault on local authority accountability and democracy, which is all that we have had from the Conservative party since 1979.
  Most local authorities have got themselves involved in creative accounting as their only way of protecting services and jobs in their areas. They have spent most of the money that they obtained through creative accounting on maintaining the standard of the statutory duties that they have to fulfil—for housing, social services and education. Those local authorities have been acting in the best interests of their constituents and ratepayers in the face of this hostile Government.
  I defy Conservative Members to say that there is any Labour local authority that behaved as reprehensibly as Tory-controlled Westminster, which has become involved in some very shady creative accounting—not in the interests of its ratepayers, but to rip them off. There was the selling of the cemeteries for 1p. When suddenly everything goes wrong, there is the attempt to use ratepayers' money to buy back through compulsory purchase. There was also the scandal of the sale of the freehold of the Tory party's Central Office so that the Tories could sell it on. It is a nice piece of creative accounting, if one happens to be a Tory—
  Mrs. Gorman rose—
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes rose—
  Mr. Banks: Hang on—sell it on to pay off the debts of a general election. That is ripping off the ratepayers of Westminster. If that had been a Labour local authority there would have been demands from the Dispatch Box for a public inquiry, but there was nothing but double standards and hypocrisy. I give way to two hon. Members who are specialists in it.
  Mrs. Gorman: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the advice given to those councillors by members of NALGO, who were highly paid executives of Westminster city

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  council, was that those cemeteries should be disposed of? It is they, if anyone, who should be held responsible. They were men on salary scales of £25,000 to £30,000 a year —of which I am sure the hon. Gentleman would approve —who were giving duff advice to elected members.
  Mr. Banks: It is a very poor councillor who shelters behind officers. That is a dereliction of duty, and the hon. Lady should know that an elected member is responsible for his or her actions. It is no good saying, "I am very sorry, but we were badly advised." Conservative Members should start thinking about some of the other examples, such as the Royal Ordnance factories, when Ministers said, "We got some bad advice, perhaps." It is a poor politician who cannot take responsibility for his or her actions.
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is also a poor politician who will not withdraw a comment that he knows to be fictitious? Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the story that he has given to the House—I accept that it was in one of the newspapers, but the hon. Gentleman's views on the gutter press are well known—is completely fictitious in respect of Central Office? There is not a shred of evidence to support the hon. Gentleman's comment. It is inaccurate.
  Mr. Banks: I am confident that the facts that I have given to the House are correct.
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes rose—
  Mr. Banks: If I have misled the House in any way, I shall be big enough to withdraw what I said.
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes: Perhaps when the hon. Gentleman makes those investigations he will look at the fairly important matter of whether No. 32 Smith square ever belonged to Westminster city council. It did not, and this point is rather germane to the hon. Gentleman's comments.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Hon. Members should return to the Bill.
  Mr. Banks: If we have the public inquiry for which the Opposition call into the affairs of Westminster city council and the facts stated by the hon. Gentleman are correct, they will emerge. For the moment the Opposition are satisfied that a scandal has been under way in the city of Westminster. We need more facts. They will speak for themselves and will show that the facts that I have put to the House are accurate.
  Mr. Madden: Why did Lady Porter not deny it?
  Mr. Banks: Yes. I would accept the point from the Minister, but not from a young puppy of a Conservative Back Bencher. Would the Minister care to tell me whether my facts are correct? We must assume that they are, because she has remained in her seat.
  There is a great deal of arrogance in the Bill. Local authorities will lose grant which they were entitled to expect to receive. They have made budget calculations and it is grossly unfair, once again, for the Government to change the rules. The Bill's impact is arbitrary.
  I shall give the specific examples of three London authorities, one of which, Brent, has been mentioned innumerable times in the debate. Greenwich, Southwark and Brent have reported that they will lose grant because
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  of the Bill. In the case of Greenwich, this is because the Government will assume a higher expenditure figure for 1986–87 than the council spent. The council approved its accounts for that year on 6 July 1988, but of course had not notified the Department of the Environment. The Department will assume that Greenwich spent £102 million when in fact it spent only £93 million in 1986–87. The council will lose £1·2 million as a result. Is that fair? Is the Minister prepared to listen to representations by authorities such as Greenwich when the Bill is seen to have adverse effect on them?
  Brent suffers even more. The Department assumes that the council spent £185 million in 1987–88 when the latest estimate available at the time it set the budget was only £178 million. As a consequence of the reduction in expenditure in 1987–88, Brent increased its 1988–89 budget from an original level of £188 million to £195 million. Brent did not submit a form showing the lower 1987–88 spending and the higher 1988–89 spending before the 7 July secret deadline because it was still working out the details of the budget. However, the Department rang the council, secured the higher figure for 1988–89 and confirmed it in writing, but did not ask about the revised estimate for the previous year, which would have been shown on the same form. As a result, the Department is assuming a higher spending figure for both 1987–88 and 1988–89, although the figures are inconsistent, because to have a higher figure in 1988–89 Brent must have had a lower figure in 1987–88. Those figures were reported publicly in March 1988.
  As a result of the Bill, Brent stands to lose £9 million in grant. [Interruption.] Tory Members who think that that is a good thing should understand the range of problems in Brent. I am not an unqualified admirer of Brent council. It makes mistakes, but the Government make mistakes to the tune of handing over millions of pounds of taxpayers' money to private companies and it sits ill on their lips to be so critical of a London borough which everyone should know—I am sure that in their hearts most people in the House do know—faces enormous social and economic problems.
  I know that a line has to be drawn, and it might be said that some may lose while others gain, but the impact of the Bill is arbitrary, and when Labour authorities have so many problems pressing down on them it is unfair that they should lose anything at all, because they do not have enough to deal with the problems that they already face. I know the Minister to be a reasonable and decent Conservative, which puts her in a fairly unique position on the Government Front Bench, so when those authorities come and tell her the truth of the situation I trust that she will find some room in her heart to give way. If she does not, I assure her that our opposition to the Bill will be implacable.
  7.51 pm
  Mr. Kenneth Hind: I welcome the Bill, as drafted, and echo some of the thoughts expressed by the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks). If there are genuine arguments, I am sure that Ministers will be prepared to listen. Like the rest of us, however, the hon. Gentleman must welcome the end of the rate support grant system. It is indeed like the Schleswig-Holstein problem, which has already been mentioned, as no one really seems to have understood the basis of calculation. The hon. Member for Birmingham,

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  Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) said that one could not blame everything on that, and I agree, but the system was not readily understood either by Members of Parliament or by the general public, and its demise is thoroughly welcome.
  As supporters of local government, we must recognise that there is a balance to be struck between central and local government. They are like the balances on a weighing machine. As the hon. Member for Perry Barr pointed out, there are two mandates. If a local authority is predominantly of one party while the Government of the day are of another, one view must prevail. That must surely be of the view of the elected Government as having a superior mandate to that of the local authority, and in that circumstance central Government must interfere when local government has not shown itself responsible and has not used the proper mechanisms to protect the ratepayer and the taxpayer in the provision of services.
  We have seen many examples. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West mentioned Brent. I could mention other London boroughs. Liverpool is an example on my own doorstep. Those and other councils in the past have proved themselves to be totally incompetent to run a local authority and thus, in the years since I first came to the House, we have had arguments about local government. Targets, rate capping and other devices have been necessary, not because the House wants to interfere in the activities of local government but because a minority of local councils have shown themselves to be incapable of looking after the authorities that they were elected to control and of safeguarding the interests of the ratepayer and the taxpayer.
  It does not come well from Labour Members to attack what the Government have done with the rate support grant in recent times. The rate support grant for 1988–89 is £13·575 billion. That is a terrific amount of money and a £1·1 billion increase on the previous year. The county of Lancashire, part of which I am proud to represent, has an increase of 9·8 per cent. in its grant compared with the previous year—that allows for changes in the funding of the polytechnics—and there is no reason, projecting forward to 1988–89, for any responsible local authority to need an increase in funding above the rate of inflation. Yet Lancashire increased its rates by 18·5 per cent. this year. People on fixed incomes, the elderly and families with children have been hit extremely hard by a totally unnecessary increase which was opposed by Conservative councillors who argued that the increase should have been between 6 and 8 per cent.—much closer to the rate of inflation.
  Ministers have been obliged to introduce legislation of this kind because local authorities have been seeking to expand the basis of their services into areas entirely unconnected with the services that they are expected to provide. The best example is probably the local authority of the hon. Member for Newham, North-West, who I see is still in his place. That authority is providing two scholarships at a local college for members of the African National Congress. The authority is paying £2,000 per year in fees for each student as well as offering to pay for flights to South Africa and so on. I appreciate the wish to help people in the Third world to achieve a better education, but is that really the function of a local authority? Surely that is something that should be taken
  730
  on board by the national Government if it is thought appropriate. Yet that is typical of the kind of activity going on in local government which Conservative Members oppose and to which we call attention.
  Mr. Tony Banks: First, Newham is an education authority and thus fully entitled to do just that. Secondly, citing such a tiny example among the many services and millions of pounds of expenditure as justifying changes in the whole structure of local government is not worthy of the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Hind: I was brought up on the principle that if one looks after the pennies the pounds will look after themselves. All too often we are told by Labour Members that something is just a drop in the bucket, but if you drip into the bucket often enough it will overflow. We want responsible management of local authorities. That is the aim of the Bill.
  Mr. Patrick Thompson: If we move to a community charge and the weakening of the link between local and central Government that such a change implies, does my hon. Friend agree that in the longer term there is a case for taking education out of the local authority sector altogether?
  Mr. Tony Banks: They will scrap local authorities altogether in the end.
  Mrs. Gorman: Good!
  Mr. Banks: There you are!
  Mr. Hind: I will not go down that avenue today as I should no doubt be called to order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
  What we want above all is better value for money. The Bill calls for efficiency, to build on what has gone before—on competitive tendering. It will help to prepare the 70 per cent. of the population who have not paid their rates in the past but who will be called upon to pay the community charge and it will soften the burden that they will have to bear. Some 9 million people will pay only 20 per cent. or less, but equally others will be called on to pay for the first time. They will say, "We want good value for our money in the services that the local authority provides." The Government are entitled to meet that challenge and to respect the fact that people are making a contribution towards the services provided.
  It is no good arguing about the past. Westminster has been referred to and we have heard a great deal about Bradford. Those of us who live on the fringes of Liverpool cannot escape from its past, when high rates were levelled by a local authority that has contributed to the destruction of Liverpool's economic base. The community charge and the national industrial rate will restore opportunities for new industry by a reduction of 30 per cent. in the industrial rate. Because rates are such a large proportion of industry's costs, that will be a major attraction to industries in other parts of the country to relocate in the Liverpool area.
  Liverpool is not untypical of many authorities. Do those who will pay the community charge expect us to spend money on scholarships for the ANC, on gay rights and on racial committees? They expect us to ensure that those authorities are run properly. Some of the Labour authorities are appallingly run. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report 18 months ago on the London

  731
  boroughs effectively said that they were going bust and being very badly managed. Southwark, the borough in which I have the misfortune to reside when in London, had £24 million of rent arrears that it simply had not bothered to collect. Where is the management responsibility in that? Its management style was criticised and it certainly had no sense of cost management.
  The local authorities in Liverpool wanted to take on the Government to such an extent that Liverpool city council was prepared to put 32,000 local government workers on the dole—yet the Government are criticised for introducing this Bill. We have only to study history and the way that many local authorities have behaved to realise the need for this legislation. For the first time, there will be a cut-off point and a new, clearer system that will define the needs of local authorities. They will know at the beginning of the financial year exactly how much money they will have. It is a wonderfully clear system.
  There will be an end to creative accounting, such as leasing park benches and lights on bridges. I hope that during the Lancashire county council election in May the public will bear in mind that no effort has been made by the controlling Labour group to make efficient cost savings. Instead, it has imposed an 18 per cent. increase in rates. It wanted to spend £600,000 on expanding the county hall. Fortunately, the Conservative group, supported by the Liberals, voted that down. That money could be spent on old people's homes, social services, education and other facilities—not on bureaucracy.
  There has been a problem in Lancashire with competitive tendering. Lancashire wanted the contract for the grass cutting in three local authorities, West Lancashire being one. It bought £100,000 of new grass-cutting machines and then tendered in such a way that 20 per cent. of the county was put together in one tender, effectively cutting out not only the in-house operations of the local authorities concerned, but every other local contractor who wanted to tender. It wanted to ensure that its own in-house operation would get the contract—yet I guarantee that that will not be as cost effective or as cheap as other tenders would have been had other contractors had the opportunity to tender. I and other Conservative Members in Lancashire have written to my hon. Friend the Minister about that, and I hope that a robust response will be given from the Dispatch Box this evening.
  Lancashire, like many local authorities, is mismanaged. In an Adjournment debate, the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) dealt with capital expenditure on schools in Lancashire last year. Lancashire complained that it had lost a large amount of grant, but it had never applied for it. It did not apply in the priority areas where the Government had indicated that money would be available. It applied in the wrong areas, thereby mismanaging the whole business. We are entitled to call upon local government to be responsible and not to act in such a way.
  I support what my right hon. Friends are seeking to achieve. I hope that there will be a more organised, more clearly understood and more cost-effective local government system. I commend the Bill to the House.
  8.6 pm
  Mr. Max Madden: I wish to thank three hon. Members who have taken part in the debate —my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford, North (Mr.
  732
  Wall) and for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer), who ma de passionate speeches, and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), who spoke from the Front Bench. I am especially grateful to him because he spoke passionately and with great effect about the importance of local government to democracy. He said that effective, democratic local government was all important to a democratic society.
  Many comments have been made about the city of Bradford, and I make no apology for devoting my speech to democracy in that city. It is under threat because of the actions of the controlling Conservative group, which has absolutely no electoral mandate for the policies that it is seeking to steamroller through the council by means of the mayor's casting vote on all matters. The objection of many citizens of Bradford to that arrangement has been compounded with the announcement by the controlling Conservative group of its intention to retain the mayoralty next year. It is rejecting the convention that has hitherto applied of the mayoralty changing according to political groups on an annual basis. It is breaking a long-standing convention that has been upheld by successive political groups for many years.
  An autocratic umbrella guillotine motion was introduced last Tuesday at the first full council meeting under the Conservative controlling group. It means that at all meetings all debates will be terminated, with the mayor using his casting vote, at 10 o'clock. It will be assumed that all motions have been moved and seconded and, without debate by councillors, the guillotine will fall and all motions will be carried by the mayor's casting vote. That is more draconian—[Interruption.]
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Order.
  Mr. Madden: I am most grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope to make a brief contribution.
  The Bradford council guillotine is far more draconian than anything that is practised in the House of Commons. As we all know, in the event of a tied vote, it is the long-standing tradition of all occupants of the chair to preserve the status quo and not to seek to carry controversial political matters for which there is no popular electoral mandate. We in the city of Bradford face a major challenge to local democracy, and that matter will be reported to the House on numerous occasions.
  The vast majority of Bradford citizens feel cheated and betrayed by the way in which Bradford Conservatives have sought to manipulate democracy and are seeking to introduce into our city extremely controversial and unpopular policies. Bradford Conservatives have been dishonest by concealing their plans from the electorate. They were revealed only in late September after the by-elections in June and September and the election last May.
  It is extraordinary that the hon. Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox), a Member of Parliament with 12 jobs, should lightly dismiss the fact that tonight 9,000 people in Bradford are threatened with the loss of their jobs. It is extraordinary that the hon. Member for Shipley should say that, when they voted in the by-elections and the district election last May, the people of Bradford knew what they were voting for—that is, if they were silly enough to vote Conservative. They certainly did not know what they were voting for. It is extraordinary also that the

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  hon. Member for Shipley should speak ambivalently about one of Bradford council's most controversial measures—the sale of 15 old people's homes.
  A few days ago, a street ballot was conducted on that issue in Bradford. It showed that 15,000 people are against the selling of such homes and that fewer than 400 are in favour of it. That is an authentic expression of popular view about that extremely controversial issue. The hon. Member for Shipley is no longer in the Chamber. He is obviously looking after the many jobs that he has to perform. For him to say that, when they voted Conservative in the by-election and district elections, the people of Bradford knew that they were voting to sell 15 old people's homes is to mislead the House and the people of Bradford.
  The people of Bradford who voted in recent elections had no idea that, if elected to power, the Conservatives would seek to sack 9,000 council staff, sell 15 old people's homes, increase the price of school dinners to 80p a day, increase home help and meals-on-wheels charges, close benefit shops and independent advice centres, or increase rents by £3 a week, and, I guess, by even more next March.
  The people of Bradford are angry that the Conservatives' hidden agenda is to go through on the mayor's casting vote. They feel angry that their councillors are being denied full information about council policy. They feel extremely angry that their councillors will be gagged at 10 o'clock at every council meeting so that measures that are deliberately placed down the agenda because they are politically controversial will be steamrollered through on the mayor's casting vote. The people of Bradford feel angry that, already, all council staff have been gagged to prevent them from talking to the media. All members of staff employed by Bradford council have been informed by circular that if they talk to the media about any aspect of their employment with the council they will face immediate disciplinary action. So much for Tory democracy in Bradford. It is a disgrace, and it rightly deserves national attention.
  The more that the people of this country get to know about what the Tories in Bradford are seeking to do, the more they dislike it and the more fearful they are that Tories in their own localities will seek to introduce the same policies if they have the same opportunities to mislead the electorate that the Bradford Conservatives have had to mislead the people of Bradford.
  Last Tuesday, 5,000 men and women gathered in Bradford to protest against the council's policies. It was the most spontaneous, genuine expression of popular opposition to Conservative policies that has been seen in Bradford for many years. Let my say to some people who may not know much about the political history of Bradford that, since 1980, the Conservatives have been in power, Labour has been in power, and there have been successive hung councils. Do not let us be misled into thinking that Bradford has been administered by Labour for generations, because that is completely untrue. The men and women who gathered outside city hall last week—whole families, pensioners, the disabled, council staff, and workers from the voluntary sector—came together to say no to Conservative policies in Bradford.
  Bradford has a proud past. It has many difficulties at present, but it faces a most exciting future. Bradford
  734
  pioneered public services, especially education. Our people are radical and hard working, with masses of common sense. They do not like being conned or used. They will not allow their families or their city to become the victims of a Tory experiment in southern imported Thatcherism. They know that Bradford needs jobs and community services, not more sackings and community cuts.
  Every social and economic index published about Bradford shows poverty in Bradford and that, since 1979, it has been robbed of millions in rate support grant. Even this Bill robs Bradford of still more. Another £3 million will be withheld.
  The Bishop of Bradford and other religious leaders—Moslem, Hindu and Sikh—know that Tory council policies will hurt poor people and low-paid families. The bishop has asked all priests in the city of Bradford urgently to report to him on how people will be affected by the Tory policies that are now being introduced in our city.
  The sackings and cuts are to reduce expenditure to allow a nil rate increase next year and, thereafter, to reduce the poll tax. The price to be paid by those on benefit and by the low-paid for a small reduction in a high poll tax will be increased charges for all council services and the loss of some services. That is too high a price for the thousands upon thousands in Bradford to be forced to pay. They should not be asked to subsidise the Conservative party or the political ambitions of certain Tory councillors in Bradford.
  The hon. Member for Shipley said that people will welcome paying a lower poll tax as a result of the expenditure reductions that Bradford Tories are proposing. At the recent annual Conservative party conference in Brighton, the Minister had the audacity to say that the elections in Bradford were won by the Conservatives on the basis of the poll tax. What nonsense. The leader of the Bradford Conservative group dodged every debate on the poll tax. The Conservatives accused the Labour party of spreading lies and misinformation about the poll tax. They did everything possible to conceal the impact of the poll tax on the city of Bradford. There are only 80,000 poll tax gainers but 220,000 poll tax losers in Bradford. That is the effect of the poll tax on Bradford.
  Let us not have any more nonsense to the effect that the controlling Conservative group in Bradford has been elected on the back of the popularity of the poll tax. If that group makes 9,000 redundant and slashes community services to reduce expenditure and thereby reduce the poll tax, it will not be met with popular acclaim. Those who will lose under the poll tax are those who depend on community service for the quality of their lives. If they see a substantial increase in their cost of living by virtue of increased charges for school meals, home helps and all the other services that the council provides, and if at the same time they see the destruction of many other community services, that will not create popularity.
  The Conservative party in Bradford will reveal what it has always been over generations. It exists to support the rich and the privileged at the expense of the poor, the underprivileged and the disadvantaged. This will rebound on the Conservative party in Bradford. The price that the Conservative party in Bradford is asking the poor to pay is far too high. They are saying no now and they will say no more loudly as the days, weeks and months pass. Let us have an election to test the popularity of Conservative policies in Bradford. Let us have a district election next year. Let the true candidates who have been proposed for

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  mayor, Conservative and Labour candidates, subject themselves to the people of Bradford. Let the existing mayor stand for election in Worth valley. Let us see whether he can get re-elected so that he can use his casting vote to steamroller through the Conservative party's unpopular measures. Let us talk about democracy, especially in Bradford. The Conservative party is trying to strangle it, and the people of Bradford will not let that happen.
  8.22 pm
  Mrs. Teresa Gorman: After the peroration of the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), I feel that it would be a good idea to bring the debate down a tone or two.
  I support the Government's general intention of stopping fiddling during the change over from one form of rate support grant to another. However, I am not euphoric at the prospect of a 9 per cent. increase in the money that is spent on RSG, that increase having been announced in the Government's proposals. It is said that that will amount to £1 billion, and I believe that that sum should be left in the pockets of the taxpayers where, as Mr. Gladstone once told the population, it would fructify and do a great deal more good. When my hon. Friend the Minister replies to the debate, I hope that she will explain in more detail why we need this increase in taxation, for that is what the proposal means.
  The Government's purpose has been to reduce the gross over-expenditure within local government. The Local Government Finance Act 1988 will make local authorities tender out a certain number of their services. I look forward to the day when we have digested that part of the Act. We can then introduce new legislation to reduce still further the activities that local government performs. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has expressed what I consider to be some of the best thoughts on local government, and I am a great supporter of him. He said that local councillors should meet two or three times a year to award tenders and then return to their homes to tend their gardens. They should keep their noses out of other people's affairs as far as possible. That is the sort of local government that I should like to see.
  There is ample evidence to show that, wherever local authorities tender out work and introduce competition and the private sector, massive savings are made. That is the way in which we shall help the ratepayers of Bradford, Newham, Brent and elsewhere. I did not understand why the hon. Member for Newham North-West (Mr. Banks) spoke for the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone), who is conspicuous by his absence, but who knows a great deal about creative accounting. He initiated a great deal of creative accounting when he led the Greater London council. For example, he spent £20 million to try to stop the GLC from being disbanded. That creative accounting was indulged in to try to keep him in a job until he was elected to this place.
  Mr. Cryer: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Gorman: The hon. Members for Newham, North-West and for Brent, East have nothing to complain about. The community charge and the new arrangement for local government will advantage high-spending Labour boroughs. The redistribution of the business rate
  736
  will do them a favour. Having driven away businesses in their areas by imposing high rates upon them, they will benefit by the new system. They should be thanking the Government and congratulating them on helping them out of a hole.
  Mr. Roger Knapman: My hon. Friend is right. Many businesses in northern constituencies will benefit considerably. Perhaps my hon. Friend should give way to the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) if he wishes to intervene. It may be that that is the very point that he wishes to make.
  Mrs. Gorman: I shall give way to the hon. Member for Bradford, South if he asks again to be allowed to intervene.
  Mr. Cryer: Will the hon. Lady give way?
  Mrs. Gorman: Yes, of course.
  Mr. Cryer: The hon. Lady said that the Bill would curtail fiddling and creative accounting. Will she confirm that she is talking about the way in which councils try to obtain additional moneys because of the crushing pressure of Government policies? Whatever they did was done legitimately. They did not indulge in the illegal activities that Conservatives have got up to in the City, Lloyd's of London and various companies which have come to grief in the criminal courts.
  Mrs. Gorman: There is a world of difference between the way in which those in the private sector are answerable to their shareholders and to those who deal in stocks and shares, and the way in which local government has in the past, in many respects, been almost unanswerable to local electorates when accounting systems have been altered to accommodate spending tendencies.
  Creative accounting has been getting an extremely bad press today. Like "gay", "creative" seems to have acquired a pejorative meaning, which I deplore. There are many ways in which creative accounting can help ratepayers. The hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Litherland) moaned and groaned about poor people who are left in the centres of cities while everyone else moves off to the suburbs. I have news for the hon. Member for Manchester, Central—I shall bring it to his attention when he returns—and for many moaning and groaning councillors. Most councils are sitting on a fortune in the shape of land and property, and in many instances they do not have a list or register of it. If it were converted into cash or some means of paying off local debts, councils in some instances would be able to pay a bonus to ratepayers or introduce a rate holiday for several years. Local councils, especially those of Left-wing persuasion, are in many instances sitting on a small fortune. They would be able to convert land and property to cash if they were bothered to do something about it.
  Let me give an example. Barking—the hon. Member for Barking (Ms. Richardson) happens not to be present today—has suddenly found enough land to build the equivalent of a new town within the confines of the borough. It has been sitting on the land for donkey's years. Tens of thousands of new homes will be built. The Government are bringing pressure on boroughs to release the land and assets on which they have been sitting for many years. When the land is sold to the private sector for the building of new homes for sale, that will help to reduce

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  the cost of running the borough. Local ratepayers have every reason to be grateful for creative accounting of that sort.
  I share to some extent the feelings of my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). More of the money that local authorities realise from the disposal of assets should be made available for reducing rates. That would be a creative use of the economic powers that the Government could bestow on local government.
  I do not share the idea, which is referred to constantly in the House, that local government must always be on the receiving end of more and more cash. There is no need for local authorities to be doing half the things that they are doing. The elderly are probably much better looked after by contracting out the homes which some need so that they are not subjected to the kind of abuses that we heard about in the Nye Bevan scandal, which was another of our wonderful local government efforts which the ratepayers supported and which the poor people who lived in that institution had to endure for many years.
  In my opinion, local government should decide some of those issues, but it should not attempt to provide the services, because when it does corruption and neglect creep in. There is not enough supervision of the direct labour services, and that includes all social services. People get a much better deal as and when the private sector sets the example. In that regard I mention Marks and Spencer, which decides on a certain budget and quality control, but does not try to do the work. That is how we will eventually introduce legislation which does not require increases of 9 per cent. or similar amounts every time we make a change in the system.
  We should put all local government services into the hands of the competitive private sector. Only then will we know that the local ratepayer will get a really good deal for his or her money.
  8.31 pm
  Mr. Dennis Turner: The contribution from the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) illustrates clearly the new breed of Conservative inside and outside the House. The hon. Lady would have been much happier if this had been a local government annex or abolition Bill. Clearly she has nothing to say about local democracy, local government and the role that local government has historically played and should continue to play in its relationship to central Government. Her contribution was a typical and classical example of the old adage—she
  "knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".
  Clearly the hon. Member for Billericay is very new to local government. She is a new Member of Parliament, as I am, but I spent 20 years in local government and I got a tremendous amount of satisfaction from that, as have thousands of local councillors of all political persuasions, in making a contribution and providing a service to the community. Some of tonight's contributions to the debate do a great disservice to the many thousands of men and women who are public representatives or servants of local government and have contributed in a huge way to our society. They have made significant advances with central Government in trying to provide the services that we all want.
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  The difficulties in local government have been exacerbated by the return of the Conservative Government in 1979 and the major changes that local government has had to accommodate over the past nine years. Local government has experienced frustration through the on-off availability of funds and the impossibility of any logical planning for services which Parliament has determined local government should deliver. While we talk about the needs of local government today, it must be evident to all hon. Members who take any interest in local government that it is facing problems at the moment. Many of the problems have been born from the Government's failure to come to terms with the needs of local government and to work with local government to achieve the required objectives.
  It is said that people pay their taxes in sorrow and their rates in anger. If the Bill is enacted, ratepayers will have every reason to be angry. In some respects we can call the Bill a paving Bill for the poll tax, because that is precisely what it is. The past three Secretaries of State for the Environment, whom I would call faith, hope and charity, have contributed nothing meaningful to the needs of local government.
  I want to refer to the problems that my authority in Wolverhampton and the rest of the west midlands will experience as a result of the Bill and the interim proposals in the rate support grant. The difficulty facing my local authority is that, as in previous years, the provision for current expenditure set by the Government is substantially lower than what is likely to occur. The Association of Metropolitan Authorities has estimated that that might be £l billion. I hope that the Minister will answer my queries.
  I know that inflation is always the subject of a great deal of controversy. My local authority has submitted its view to the Secretary of State that the levels of inflation in terms of pay awards and interest are not fully reflected in the rate support grant for 1989–90. Legitimately, we are concerned about that. That problem will have an impact on the level of rates that must be set by the authority.
  Reference has been made on many occasions to the suggested 9 per cent., or £1·1 billion increase. I believe that that is very misleading. On the basis of the assessment for the current year, it is expected that £500 million will be returned to the Treasury because final grant entitlements for 1988–89 and earlier years were based on estimates rather than on final audited figures. I want the Minister to comment on that, because if that is true we are talking about an increase, not of £1·1 billion, but of £600 million, because £500 million has already been clawed back in the current year.
  My next plea is very important in terms of equity and fairness. An arbitrary decision has been taken in the revaluation of the west midlands ratepayers' superannuation fund. Will the Minister please reconsider that arbitrary decision, which is likely to cost the ratepayers of the west midlands £25 million and my local authority an extra £2·7 million?
  Mr. Gummer: Will the hon. Gentleman explain exactly his question on the superannuation fund, because I want to answer him clearly? What would he like us to do?
  Mr. Turner: The Treasury and the Department of the Environment have undertaken a revaluation of the superannuation fund. The information that I have from my local authority is that, on the basis of that revaluation,

  739
  the West Midlands authority has been placed at a disadvantage to the extent of £25 million, and to the extent of £2·7 million in the case of my own local authority. My authority has asked me to raise this matter with the Minister, as it feels that, irrespective of the other decisions that the Government have taken—some of which might be said to be political—this matter is one that he should reconsider.
  Mr. Gummer: I should explain to the hon. Member that it is not a matter of a Government revaluation, but that the West Midlands authority would like to revalue its superannuation fund. However, under present law that would be illegal, so it would not be proper for the Government to give the authority permission to do so—although we may be able to make some changes later. There is no way in which we could make legal that which at the moment is not legal.
  Mr. Turner: I thank the Minister for his answer. If he proposes to be fair, he might be able to find a mechanism whereby he can still make a response in order to obviate the loss that the West Midlands will otherwise suffer. I hope that he will take on board my comments and will be in a position to respond positively.
  The overall thrust of my argument is that there is a serious element of unfairness in the Bill. I am making the point that my own local authority has been dealt with unfairly and that there is cause for the Minister to reconsider that matter. All local authorities, not just Wolverhampton, know that since 1979 there had been a contribution of about 62 to 63 per cent. from the Exchequer to support local government in all its many services. Now, the Exchequer's contribution is about 46 per cent. That tells people why they are suffering huge indirect taxation imposed by a Tory Government. It is that that has created major problems in our towns and cities over the past few years.
  I ask that the Bill be voted down and that, in the run-up to the iniquitous poll tax, greater fairness and equity be enjoyed by local government by giving it the support that it needs to provide the services that the House has, in passing legislation over many years, decided it should provide.
  8.42 pm
  Mr. Martin M. Brandon-Bravo: When considering the Bill, one can only wonder why it is that rate support grant was not abolished years ago. My right hon. Friend the Minister, in opening this debate, implied that one of two people in the Ministry understood rate support grant, and my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox) observed that when he was a Minister perhaps three people in the Department understood it. In my humble position as a PPS for a couple of years, well below the salt on the ministerial table, I had a strong suspicion that the only thing that understood rate support grant was the computer, buried in the bowels of the Ministry's building, that produced the figures every year, and that very few people, if any, really understood how it arrived at them.
  Given—hallelujah!—that the present system is at last going, my right hon. Friend the Minister is absolutely right in saying that we cannot change from the present arrangement to the community charge in one jump and that there has to be a mechanism covering the interim
  740
  period. The Bill meets that challenge admirably. If we are to have a break between support for spending, which is crazy, and instead support for needs, however difficult that may be to assess but which makes much more sense than just support for spending, then I welcome the Bill if it can achieve that.
  Nobody in the House can doubt that it is the role of Parliament and of the Government in particular to set the totality of public spending nationally. No one can doubt either that, in order to do that, the House must set aside an amount of money—or at least set a maximum—that is to be spent locally. That is a view held not just by my right hon. and hon. Friends, but one that has had all-party support for years. When in government, the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) made a powerful speech arguing just that point. The right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), when he was Secretary of State for the Environment, argued precisely that the House was right to control national and local expenditure. He not only said that, but acted on it.
  It was in 1966–67, or in 1967–68, when the Labour Government got themselves into a fearful tangle with the IMF, that the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney rightly asked local authorities to reduce their expenditure—and this was in mid-year—by £1,000 million. Bearing in mind the inflation that has taken place since those years, one is talking about a very large sum of money. So it sits ill in the mouths of Opposition Members to talk as though constraints on local government spending have only just been introduced by the present Government. They have always been there.
  What has been missing in the past few years has been the willingness of Labour authorities to recognise the paramountcy of the House and to act in a voluntary way in meeting Government targets. Because those authorities refused to meet targets in the way convention always arranged in the past, the Conservative Government have been compelled to legislate much more than my right hon. and hon. Friends really would have wished.
  There have been cries from the Opposition Benches, particularly from the three hon. Members for Bradford, for more money for Bradford—a voice from the bottomless pit. Their cries and arguments had all the overtones and language of the debates about Liverpool that we had three or three and a half years ago. It was the same story. Liverpool wanted to spend. The councillors there felt that as they had been elected they had a right to spend—but somebody else's money. I recall that at the time I served on Nottingham city council as well as in the House. Nottingham Labour councillors came down to London wearing their stickers proclaiming, "I support Liverpool." I said to them at the time that, apart from the waste of money in coming all the way to London to see me —because, as a city councillor, I could just as easily have seen them in Nottingham—I was elected as a Nottingham city councillor and as a Member of Parliament to represent the people of Nottingham.
  I objected then, as I have since and do now, that spending by other authorities—be it in Bradford, Liverpool, or anywhere else—should take money away from a city such as Nottingham, which I represent. If the new system does away with that and makes each city stand up and answer to its own electorate as to how it spends,

  741
  then we shall have done a great service to local government. We shall have returned to local government the kind of democracy that we all want to see.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: I was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman say that. Is he aware that business men in my part of the country are steaming with anger because their business rates will be raised to reduce the rates of other areas that have spent the money on extra services? They are angry because services have been held down in my area to keep rates down, and they now find that they will be penalised for action taken by sensible councils.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: I have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman. Many local authorities were, in effect, penalised for being prudent under the old system. There is no dispute about that.
  Mr. Taylor: And under the new system.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: No. Under the new system each authority will be answerable to its electorate for what it spends.
  Mr. Taylor rose—
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: No, I will not give way again.
  I referred to Bradford because there are a number of similarities between Bradford and the city of Nottingham. The city of Nottingham, too, has a hung council, and for two or three more days its future depends on the casting vote of the lord mayor.
  Mrs. Gorman: Is he a Tory?
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: Yes, a Tory lord mayor with a casting vote. But, happily, this Thursday the citizens of Nottingham will have the opportunity to say to their council, "Yes, we approve of what you have been doing in the city for the past 18 months." We hope that they will return a Conservative councillor to replace a Conservative colleague, David Flowerday, who died of cancer three or four weeks ago.
  If, heaven forbid, the citizens of Nottingham—for whatever reason—elect a Labour councillor, theirs will be a very unusual council. It will have 27 Labour members, 27 Conservatives and one Communist. The city will then have to depend on the whim of a single Communist for its policies. In this place we sometimes forget just how important local government is and how much effect it has on people's lives. I venture to suggest that the by-election in Byron ward in the city of Nottingham on Thursday is probably more important than some of the parliamentary elections in the coming months.
  Eighteen months ago, when the Conservatives won control of Nottingham, they began—perhaps without the drama of the past few days in Bradford—to put their financial house in order, and it is to their credit that they did so without much fuss or publicity. They froze the rate last year: there was no increase in Nottingham city council's rate at the end of the first year of Conservative administration. If hon. Members wish to visit the queen of the midlands, they will now see more businesses, factories and houses being built than in the past 30 years. That is what is at stake on Thursday.
  Mr. Gummer: Before he leaves that point, will my hon. Friend draw to the House's attention that council houses are now refurbished in five weeks, providing homes for those who would otherwise be homeless, whereas under the previous Labour administration it took a year? As a result very few people are now in bed-and-breakfast accommodation.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for pointing that out. My Conservative colleagues in Nottingham have received some publicity and some deserved compliments for what was known as the "mini-mod" scheme. Instead of leaving properties empty for months on end and trying to carry out major modifications, they are now handling 1,500 modernisations a year. It is going extremely well, and all credit to them.
  We have heard a good deal about creative accountancy tonight. To be fair, all councils—Tory and Labour—have used creative accountancy to some extent. Some of it would make us simply nod and smile, because it was not terribly naughty. If a local authority set its budget to a proper level, it would obtain the maximum grant; that was sensible local authority financial planning. But if the authority found towards the end of the year that it was not going to spend its full budget and was foolish enough to underspend, it would receive less grant under the old system. The local authority, if it had its wits about it, put the money into reserve. That counted as expenditure, so it would receive its full grant. That was called creative accountancy, and I suppose it was, but it was excusable and understandable and no one broke many bones.
  What the Bill addresses, and what has happened in the past few years, is creative accountancy of a very different kind. It is much more evil. Financial deals have almost made future generations hostage to the vast debts that those deals built up. I think that the Government were absolutely right to stop those phoney deals and to stop local authorities—whatever their colour—from acting in an irresponsible way that mortgaged the future of those yet to come.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister specifically referred to an adjustment being made because local authorities would no longer control the polytechnics. That could not be more germane to my comments about the city of Nottingham. In 1952 I went to what was then called the Nottingham district technical college—and it was the district technical college. Now Trent polytechnic is an enormous institute of higher education. It is far from being the local tech. It is not even the city tech or the regional tech. It is a national—even an international—institution, quite the equal of Nottingham university. The fact that under the new Bill it will be an independent, stand-alone institute of higher education, out of the clutches of the local authority, is the best thing that could have happened to it. If that means a minor adjustment to rate support grant, so be it.
  Let us be clear about this. Local authorities have a duty to provide proper services, and they have a duty of care. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) pointed out, having a duty to provide services and a duty of care does not mean that the authority must provide those services and that care. If it can provide more care and more services more efficiently and cheaply by contracting out, then let it do so.

  743
  This is what the argument about staffing levels means. Bradford is saying that over a period 2,500 jobs are going —we have heard 5,000 and 9,000 mentioned: think of a number and double it—but those jobs will not disappear. The services are going out to tender, and the vast majority may well reappear in the private sector where they belong.
  Mr. Turner: I asked earlier whether we had learnt anything from the experience of Dudley and Birmingham a few years ago when they were under Conservative control. School cleaning in Dudley was contracted out. Within a matter of weeks the schools were closed down because they were absolutely filthy. A report stated that contracting out had been an abject failure. Conservative Members should not say that contracting out is the answer in Bradford or anywhere else. The Conservative party has proved that it is an abysmal failure. In Birmingham, the school meals service was contracted out, but that had to be stopped in no time.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that there is good and bad in both the public and the private sectors. I simply make the point that if a local authority accepts that its role is that of an enabling body, and that if it has the mechanism to ensure that a contractor meets his tender obligations, services can be properly provided by the private sector. It has never meant that a local authority can put something out to tender and then turn its back on it and not ensure that it is handled properly. If what the hon. Gentleman described went wrong, that sounds to me like very bad supervision.
  Mr. Turner: It went wrong because of greed.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: That may be the hon. Gentleman's view. I acknowledge that a local authority has a duty to provide services and care. In most cases, services and caring can be provided by the private sector, with the local authority acting as both the enabling authority and the mechanism whereby it can ensure that in the public interest its services are properly provided. I hope that the Bill will reduce the patronage and control that local authorities have exercised over many people's lives. If that is the result of this interim Bill and of the Bill relating to the community charge, I shall be a very happy man.
  9 pm
  Mr. Graham Allen: I am very proud to speak on behalf of my constituency and of the people of Nottingham, having been born and bred there. All Nottinghamians are proud of their city. It is a beautiful place. Its people are some of the finest in the world, but they are very worried. They look up the motorway to Bradford and see what a Tory authority with the slimmest possibly majority can do to a city. What has happened during the last week to the people of Bradford may happen to the people of Nottingham.
  The Bradford authority is seeking not to serve the people of Bradford but merely to impress its mistress in No. 10. In many ways the people of Bradford are suffering because their Tory city council is taking the lead from the Tories in Nottingham. The Tory city council in Nottingham does not care about many groups of people. It does not care about the handicapped in the city of Nottingham. There are 643 handicapped people on the waiting list for purpose-built accommodation, but it is
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  being sold off by the Tory city council. It is flogging off that accommodation, thereby creating longer waiting lists and fewer homes.
  The Tory city council does not care about the young newly weds who cannot get a home of their own either because the council is not building any more new council houses or because mortgages are too expensive in the city of Nottingham. [Interruption.] know that Conservative Members do not like this, but they are going to have to listen to it.
  The Tory city council does not care about its ratepayers. Every person in a household who is over 18 will soon have to pay £252 under the poll tax, yet the Tory city council utters not a word of protest to its mistress at No. 10. It does not care about the green spaces in our proud and beautiful city that are being sold off and asset-stripped. Allotment holders are being squeezed out for private development and speculation. The Tory city council of Nottingham does not care about council tenants whose estates may soon be sold to speculators. It does not care either about the elderly whose hedges are no longer trimmed and whose houses are no longer painted by community programme workers, who now face the dole.
  The Tory city council of Nottingham is so incompetent that it has been unable to put correct rent demands before people. The result is that during the past few days the elderly and the disabled in Nottingham have received demands for rent arrears amounting to £500, £600 and in one case £1,000, sums which were unknown to those people. They have built up because of the Tory city council's incompetence. The council is involved in seedy land deals in the city and is stripping the assets of our city fair. A cut of 80 per cent. in Nottingham's housing investment programme has been inflicted on the city by this Conservative Government without a murmur from the Tory city council. That council has crawled on its belly to ingratiate itself with the Prime Minister, when the defence of our city services was needed. The council is not fit to safeguard the city of Nottingham and its assets and services are not safe in the hands of a Tory city council.
  The by-election on Thursday will be the day of reckoning for a Tory city council that has followed in the footsteps of Bradford. It will no longer rule Nottingham because we shall have a Labour administration.
  9.6 pm
  Mr. Roger Knapman: You, Madam Deputy Speaker, know how keen the competition is to participate in local government finance debates, so I thank you for calling me.
  I have listened with some interest to hon. Members who represent Bradford constituencies and who are suddenly taking a keen interest in local government finance. They have seen fit to sign early-day motion 1502, which suggests that 9,000 employees are to be sacked over five years. There is an amendment to it which suggests that the number is in fact 2,500 and that redundancies will be rare. One can understand why the Socialists think that the greater the number of people working in central and local government and elsewhere who are dependent on the Government, the more likely it is that they will be in a Socialist fairyland.
  I am not impressed by the huge march that so impressed hon. Members who represent Bradford constituencies. Bradford has a population of 320,000 and they say that

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  5,000 took part in the march. The average Labour rent-a-mob is about 50 per cent. home grown and 50 per cent. imported. If one assumes that 4,000 took part in the march, that means that there were about 2,000 people from Bradford in the march out of a population of 320,000. We are happy to fight a by-election at any time on that basis.
  Mr. Gummer: I want to comment on the fact that that crowd filled the town hall, shrieked so loudly that no Tory could be heard and threw coins on to the floor. Does my hon. Friend think that that was a reasonable way to carry on a democratic discussion?
  Mr. Knapman: I agree that that is not a reasonable way of carrying on, but I am sure my right hon. Friend will agree that it is a typical way for them to carry on, although the marches and protests of eight or 10 years ago were much larger than anything that we have seen recently, including the little demonstration organised in Bradford. One can understand why the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer), who has a tiny majority of a few hundred, is desperate to be seen to be doing something. I am sure that his turn will come at the next election.
  Local government finance does not generally create such interest as we have seen this evening. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, when he was Minister for Local Government, said:
  "In the years that I have been in the House, when I have looked in on such debates, I have soon found that on the whole hon. Members keep away from them unless they have been alerted to attend by their local authorities."—[Official Report, 16 January 1985; Vol. 71, c.413.]
  I have one small and perhaps narrow point which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning may care to consider. Should supplementary credit approval be granted when the Secretary of State approves a compulsory purchase order under section 114 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 in respect of listed buildings? It seems that the local authority has some responsibilities for listed buildings. Some are large, and some are constructed of ancient or traditional materials, and may be expensive to improve or to put into good order. I should like my right hon. Friend's comments on that if possible, because in my constituency there is one listed building in poor repair for which expenditure of about £720,000 is anticipated.
  I have been a chartered surveyor for 20 years. To listen to the debate, one would think that Opposition Members were keen on the existing system. Quite how one can even dovetail the existing system with the Opposition's current proposals on the community charge is open to question, but I shall leave that point alone.
  I dislike the ever-increasing complexity of the whole system, what with capping, penalties, targets, recycling, holdbacks, slopes and thresholds. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his new appointment. He has worked in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, so he is used to dealing with green pounds, ecus and all that sort of thing. He will know how to deal with capping and penalties and he has a ready appreciation of all the matters before us.
  I am anxious for clarification of the position regarding historic buildings and the possible liability of councils for
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  them. I do not think that such liability would arise often, but would it be possible to make provision in the Bill to deal with it should it occasionally occur?
  9.10 pm
  Mr. Allen McKay: There are just 10 minutes left before the winding-up speeches. [HON. MEMBERS: "Five minutes."] Conservative Members should not get too excited, or it really will be 10 minutes.
  A lot of phrases have been used in the debate. We have referred to the need of the people. I think that we all agree that local expenditure should be directed to meeting need. Opposition Members are concerned with establishing who determines that need. It is local people who determine the need and who vote each year for their local authority representatives to decide how that need is to be met.
  Let us consider what has happened since 1979. It should not be forgotten that the problem with local government has been central Government. Each and every year since 1979, central Government have eroded local authority grants. That is what has caused local government problems. Even in the face of that, local government wanted to be left alone and said, "Let central Government determine their grant and let us go to local people and say how we propose, with that grant, to supply their needs." That did not satisfy central Government.
  Only two great bodies of people are in the way of the Government's attempts to move control away from local government. One is the trade union movement, against which the Government have repeatedly legislated; the other is local government itself, against which they have legislated continually. It does not take much imagination to realise that in the case of Salazar's Portugal, Franco's Spain and Hitler's Germany such moves led to the establishment of totalitarian states, and that is what we need to guard against.
  Schedule 2, paragraph 6(1) says:
  "For the purposes of paragraph 4 above Z is a figure which is 1 or, if the Secretary of State so provides,"
  the figure can be two. The schedule further states:
  "in deciding what figure to specify, the Secretary of State"
  may take into account various factors. Paragraph 6(4) provides:
  "Sub-paragraph (2) above operates without prejudice to the generality of the Secretary of State's powers".
  Paragraph 7(1) says that for the purposes of paragraph 4 the Secretary of State is to determine the figure. Paragraph 7(2) provides that the Secretary of State shall secure the aggregate, and paragraph 7(4) that the Secretary of State shall specify certain figures and principles.
  Nowhere does the Bill say, "The Secretary of State shall discuss with local authority organisations what shall be done". The Bill is moving powers away from local government into the hands of central Government and that is why we protest against it.
  Let us not kid ourselves about the poll tax. It is not about local authority accountability to the people. By its very nature, it takes accountability away from local councils. All this talk about improving accountability through the poll tax is hogwash. It is concerned with much else, but not that. At present, local government provides 50 per cent. of the rate fund and the Government provide the other 50 per cent. Under the poll tax, the Government will provide 75 per cent. of the rate fund. Where, then, is the accountability?

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  In reality, local authorities will merely get the blame for what the Secretary of State does because the only thing that the Government want to do is to destroy local authorities.
  9.14 pm
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes: This debate is about a minor matter, although one would think, from the complaints of Opposition Members, that it was a large-scale change in local government finance. In reality, the Bill is merely a winding-up of the old system. It is reasonable and fair.
  The ground rules have to be changed, and dates by which decisions have to be made have to be set because, without legislation, there is a risk that some unscrupulous local authorities will engage in bookkeeping exercises that are simply creative accounting. They have become a way of life for some local authorities. How else did Camden arrive at a £15 million gap in its budget? How else did Brent arrive at a similar position? They lived beyond their means and creative accountancy became a way of life. They did that not because they wanted to protect local services or because they were desperate to do something about bad housing, but to avoid making difficult decisions.
  Labour-controlled councils have put off the difficult decisions. They have said, "Perhaps we can pay tomorrow. We can think about how to live within our means later." That is how it has been in Bradford.
  We have heard much about Bradford today. The incoming Conservative administration has taken the bull by the horns and said, "We have to make these decisions on behalf of people in Bradford. Without them, the long-term suffering will be greater." In one respect, we have not heard enough from Opposition Members about Bradford. "I would have thought that after all that has happened during this week we would have heard at least a few words condemning what has happened to the council in Bradford from the other side this week. I would have thought we would have heard a few words from the Opposition Benches—perhaps from the Labour Members for Bradford city—about the intimidation, the lies and the innuendoes that have been spread about the leaders of the Conservative-controlled council, perhaps condemning the Labour Opposition leader in Bradford who even quoted those lies and innuendo inside the council chamber, even though he must have known when he said it that what he was saying was simply not true."
  Opposition Members have not said that they regret what happened in Bradford. Perhaps they do not regret it. Perhaps they ought to regret it. Perhaps they ought to regret the fact that the 68-year-old lord mayor had to have a police guard. The fact that they have not mentioned any of those matters means that we must conclude that they approve of what has happened and that their political friends organised it.
  The Bradford revolution, as it has been called, is about protecting services. It will protect people in the long run by making difficult decisions now. If Opposition Members want proof that the Bradford Conservatives are ensuring the future of their city—enabling industry to thrive, creating jobs and wealth and providing better services—they have only to consider the parallel decisions being made by the London borough of Brent. The contrast proves that those who do not make difficult decisions are eventually forced to make them, whereupon they are
  748
  harmful to local people. The Labour party is culpable. It has done deliberate harm to people in areas where it has political control. The Conservatives in Bradford are protecting people in Bradford.
  Labour Members are worried about something that Councillor Pickles said at the Conservative party conference. He said:
  "If we can do it in Bradford, we can do it anywhere."
  He is right. If they can protect their services and transform the economy in Bradford by what they do in the council chamber, it can be done in any of the other northern cities. I believe that the Labour party is desperately worried about what will happen to its vote in those areas when people see the success that Eric Pickles and his colleagues will bring to the economy, understand what they are doing and vote that council into a majority so that it can continue with those successful policies.
  9.19 pm
  Mr. William O'Brien: The hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) described this issue as a minor one. That point reflects the general view of Tory Members who consider the financing of local government to be a minor issue. The Bill, which represents a further cut in the rate support grant, and tightens the regulations restricting capital expenditure by local government, is a deliberate move to prevent local authorities from embarking on expenditure to provide the services needed by the people served by local government. There is no doubt that the Bill seeks to portray the way in which the poll tax will apply and at the same time to discredit the present rating system. It restricts local authorities in improving the environment and providing the services that people rely upon in the cities, towns and villages throughout England and Wales.
  The Bill is cruel and dishonest and does nothing for local government. The Minister referred to changing the grant title to the needs grant. All we require now is to add to that the resources element and we shall be back to where we were in the 1950s and 1960s when the rate support grant was made up of needs and resources elements.
  Will the Minister identify how the needs of local authorities will be determined? If we are to end the present system and introduce something in its place, there should be some explanation as to how we are to identify the needs of various authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) spelt it out that local government is about differences, about different areas having different needs and requiring different services. Local government is about differences. Therefore, hon. Members—particularly Opposition Members—those who serve local government and those who rely upon its services are interested to know how the Minister will determine the needs element within the new formula.
  The Bill is cruel and dishonest and does nothing to improve the environment. At the Tory conference the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State, Ministers and Conservative Members declared that they care about the environment, but to say that they care about the environment without providing the resources to protect the environment is cruel and dishonest. People expect their streets to be cleaned. They expect to have street lighting, which is important in our towns and villages. Local authorities and their planning departments must be able to tackle the dereliction in our towns and cities. Greater consultation and public involvement in planning matters

  749
  which influence people's destiny must be a part of local democracy. The Bill does nothing to meet the call for greater public participation in planning issues.
  The hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman), who is not in her place, suggested that councillors and people working in local authorities should have no influence and that a few contractors should decide the level of services to be provided. The hon. Lady also said that in some areas there have been increases of up to 9 per cent. and that that is deplorable. She did not say anything about the fact that water authorities have increased their expenditure by 9, 10 or 11 per cent. over the past few years. I wonder what she will say about the Yorkshire water authority, which is planning to increase its charges by 27 per cent. in the coming year. What will Conservative Members say about accountability and about the fact that people's money is being spent? What will Conservative Members say about such increases, which are simply to justify privatisation?
  It is cruel and dishonest to deny local authorities the right to better monitoring, inspection and enforcement of pollution control. The Bill acts against the better protection of the environment by local authorities.
  Waste disposal, particularly hazardous waste disposal, is a major responsibility for local authorities. People are concerned about where waste is dumped and how it is disposed of. Their concern is greater than ever before. Since the Government took office the importation of hazardous waste to Britain has increased ten times. The Bill restricts the ability of local authorities to employ the necessary trained people to carry out monitoring of pollution control. Hon. Members should do more than pay lip service to concern for the environment. That is cruel and dishonest. Words are cheap.
  Mr. Redwood: How much extra money would the Labour party suggest should be spent and how would it be allocated?
  Mr. O'Brien: It would not be for a Labour Government to decide the needs of local authorities. That is our point. The local authorities should determine their own needs. Local government should be provided with adequatee resources, properly trained manpower and back-up services to ensure that the environment is protected.
  The Government have cut pollution research staff by 42 per cent. Reported cases of water pollution have increased by two thirds since 1980. Two of the most serious environmental issues causing concern to communities are noise and dirt. The problems are not restricted to inner city areas or Labour-controlled authorities.
  Local government is concerned not only with hazardous waste disposal but with waste disposal in general. Because of the financial restrictions that the Secretary of State has imposed on them, local authorities must cut corners and, in many instances, act against the best interests of the environment.
  It is significant that Tory-controlled North Yorkshire county council is intending to turn a beauty spot in the North Yorkshire national park into a refuse dump. The reason given is that it would cost £175,000 a year to provide an alternative means of refuse disposal. It would prefer to dump refuse in the North Yorkshire national park than to provide an alternative means of disposal costing £175,000 a year. If the Bill is passed and we
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  approve the Secretary of State's proposal to change the allocation of rate support grant, North Yorkshire county council stands to be robbed of £8·6 million over two years.
  Mr. Patnick: Has the North Yorkshire national park any planning controls, or are they vested in the North Yorkshire county council?
  Mr. O'Brien: I should have expected the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick) to be aware that the planning department of North Yorkshire county council overrides the planning committee of the North Yorkshire national park. If the hon. Gentleman is as concerned as Labour Members about this matter, he should make representations to Ministers:
  As I said, North Yorkshire county council stands to be robbed of £8·6 million over two years. Suffice it to say that the money that will be held back would provide a tipping area or alternative for refuse disposal for 50 years. That is the measure of the way in which the Bill will attack local government.
  The position in north Yorkshire is dramatically heightened by the comments of the right hon. and learned Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Brittan), whose constituency is so near to the rubbish tip that this weekend he said:
  "I am a little concerned about the use the county council has made of its powers to override the national parks committee."
  I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will say that during the by-election next year.
  Much of the debate has centred on the problems in Bradford. My hon. Friends representing Bradford constituencies have made it clear that the programme being carried out there by the Tories has not been put to the electorate. Nowhere in their manifesto was reference made to £830,000 being cut from the social services budget. Nothing was said about the selling off of 15 old people's homes and the old people in them. Nothing was said about the massive charges for the meals-on-wheels service. If Conservative Members have democracy at heart, they should give Bradford's people the opportunity to go to the polls next year and test the programme that is being put forward. There is little difference between the Tories in Bradford and North Yorkshire and the Secretary of State. They are out to destroy local government and, in the process, commit the environment to untold damage and destruction. The Bill effectively adds to that process.
  Practically every hon. Member who has spoken referred to Bradford, including the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire), who praised the Bill. Is he aware that, under the Bill, Spelthorne council stands to lose £64,000 and Surrey county council £9·5 million?
  Mr. Wilshire: If the hon. Gentleman wants to talk about my borough council, perhaps he should make it clear that it has managed to cut its rate by 73 per cent. this year and is now providing better services. That is the truth.
  Mr. O'Brien: And still Spelthorne council loses £64,000 and Surrey county council £9·5 million because of the Bill. Will the Minister include in the needs element the flooding to which the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) referred? Such issues should be included.
  The continuing migration to rural areas is causing concern to local authorities in terms of access, communications and housing. There is also the matter of law and order in the cities and towns, but particularly in

  751
  rural towns where the police forces are stretched to the limit. My hon. Friend the Member for Perry Barr dwelt at length on the amount of money that will be cut from the police committees' budgets if the Bill is passed in its present form. I hope that we shall be given answers to my hon. Friend's questions.
  If we consider the holdback of rate support grant in 1987–88 and 1988–89, we realise the dramatic effect that there will be on police authorities. I should like to add to some of the points made on this important issue. The Northumbria police authority is robbed of £272,000 in the first year and £660,000 in the second year. The West Midlands police authority is robbed of £750,000 in the first year and £1·8 million in the second year. The West Yorkshire police authority is robbed of about £500,000 in the first year and £1·33 million in the second year. All the police authorities will lose if the Bill remains in its present form. The Metropolitan police are robbed of £4·6 million in the first year and £11·3 million in the second year. If Conservative Members are sincere about law and order, they will realise that to vote for the Bill is to vote down the resources which the police authorities require to maintain law and order.
  Tory-controlled local authorities will be robbed of £134 million because of the proposals introduced by the Secretary of State on 7 July. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) referred to the wonderful work that is done in Nottingham. The people of Nottingham must be made aware that, under the Bill, the county council will lose £9·8 million and Nottingham city council £492,000. It is true that the decision on the future of Nottingham will be made on Thursday. I hope that hon. Members will be honest and will tell the people of Nottingham the exact consequences of voting Tory.
  Among those authorities, North Yorkshire county council will lose some £8·8 million, the authorities in the Humberside region will collectively lose £260,000 in the first year and £725,000 in the second and those in North Yorkshire will lose £175,000 in the first year and £391,000 in the second, with Richmond council being robbed of £47,000 and Harrogate of £ 152,000. Bradford is robbed of £3·7 million, so one can readily understand why the Tories who have taken over that authority are selling off old people in their homes to make up the void created by the Bill.
  I trust that answers will be forthcoming to the questions that have been asked about this attack on local authorities, and I hope that Conservative Members will take note of the dramatic effect that the Bill will have on their authorities and join us in voting against the Bill.
  9.41 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mrs. Virginia Bottomley): I hope that the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. O'Brien) will bear with me if I turn down his invitation to walk round the North Yorkshire national park with him and instead refer to the matters at hand in the Bill.
  Most hon. Members with experience of rate support grant matters have given a warm welcome to the Bill, which heralds, if not the end of the present rate support grant system, at least the beginning of the end. We still have the 1989–90 settlement to come. The Bill is principally designed to tidy up loose ends from the present system before the community charge system is introduced from 1
  752
  April 1990 in England and Wales. The House has recognised that the new system will encourage greater local accountability and will be easier to understand than the present arrangements. In the words of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning, there should be no taxation without comprehension. The community charge also removes the unfairnesses of the present rating system. Local government's attention is moving away from rate support grant to revenue support grant, but I think that we all welcome my right hon. Friend's suggestion that we should refer to it as the needs grant, which makes it absolutely clear how the new system will work.
  From April 1990, an authority's grant entitlement will be fixed in relation to its spending needs and will not depend on the level of expenditure incurred. That feature of the new system has been widely welcomed and the Bill paves the way for the new fixed grant arrangements. Local authorities have generally welcomed our proposal that grant should be fixed in relation to expenditure for 1989–90, which will provide them with certainty about their grant entitlement and assist them in making their budgets. The Department will shortly be issuing a consultation paper setting out full details of our proposals for next year. Having only recently turned from being a poacher to being a gamekeeper in this regard, I speak most strongly about the need for local authorities to be able to plan for the future and to know where they stand. The Bill opens the way for that to happen.
  It was inevitable that at some point we would need to act to bring the present system to a close. Otherwise, we should have had to ask the House to approve a string of supplementary reports concerned with the present system until well into the 1990s. For those in local government, for central Government and for community charge payers alike, it is better to make a clean break with the past before the new system comes in, and local authorities have generally accepted the logic of our arguments about the principles underlying the intention to close down the present rate support grant system. The rules that we have put forward are clearcut and impartial and, so far as anything in this area can be, they are understandable. They are based on sound principles. The rules, which are set out in detail in the Bill, are based on total expenditure information with the Department by 7 July. That is not just any information available. It has been certified by chief financial officers as being the best estimates available to the best of their knowledge and belief. The Bill provides for common rules that apply to all authorities. The expenditure figures on which grant will be calculated are not the result of the Department exercising substantial discretion. The rules produce figures that provide a clear and unambiguous basis for the payment of grant and they are accepted by local authorities—
  Mr. Michael rose—
  Mrs. Bottomley: If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I hope to come to the points that he raised, but I need to make progress before getting there.
  The hon. Members for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), for Truro (Mr. Taylor) and for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) made the surprising suggestion that the legislation was being rushed through, and said that they resented that. I should have thought that all local authorities would welcome a firm end to the current

  753
  system so that they would know where they stood and could plan for the future. Local authorities frequently complain about not having known the arrangements until they were already far down the budget system. If we had waited until the next parliamentary Session to introduce the Bill, the reports could not have been debated until February or March at the earliest. That would have been far too late to give local authorities certainty about their grant entitlement for the next year in time for their budget-making.
  We intend to issue a consultation paper on next year's settlement during November and to make the settlement itself before Christmas. Local authority associations certainly do not want the settlement delayed any longer than need be. They want the 1989–90 settlement made as soon as possible, and preferably in December, so that it can be debated in January.
  The hon. Member for Truro asked whether 7 July was an appropriate date for close down. Most hon. Members accept the principles underlying our intention to close down the present RSG system, although some, like the hon. Gentleman, argued that 7 July was not necessarily the best date available. However, by 7 July all authorities bar two had provided the Department with total expenditure information about their budgets for 1988–89 and with revised budget information for 1987–88. It was requested that that information be in by 31 March 1988. Authorities have had a further three months in which to get the information to the Department.
  In July my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced details of grant and provision to give local authorities an early indication of next year's RSG settlement. To make that announcement without indicating our intention to close down the present RSG system would have been misleading. It is now clear that the full amount of grant—£13,575 million—will be paid to authorities next year when grant will no longer depend on expenditure. Delaying the announcement of close down beyond the end of July would have meant that we could not announce details while the House was sitting.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: What will happen to those local authorities that have not yet approved their final accounts, and where major decisions affecting those accounts had been taken prior to that date? Will the Government take that into account? Those authorities had already taken those decisions, but, if I understand the Minister, they would not be taken into account by the Government.
  Mrs. Bottomley: The most straightforward way to proceed is to set a cut-off point by which the Department decides the information must be provided. Once we open the door to exceptions and special cases and take into account whether local authorities have made decisions, we open the door also to every sort of indecision. Every constituency would have a special plea and a special case and the matter would never be settled. We would be perpetuating the present system of supplementary reports year after year as special cases were found. We must find a way to move forward.
  Mr. Michael rose—
  Mrs. Bottomley: I shall not give way. I am about to deal with some of the hon. Gentleman's points.
  754
  The hon. Member for Perry Barr, supported by the hon. Member for Normanton, claimed that the Bill would deprive local authorities of £500 million grant in 1988–89. He quoted a series of figures. I wonder whether hon. Members think that they are real figures. They are, in fact, hypothetical. They were taken from a parliamentary answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to a hypothetical question from the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham). They are not based on the actual provision of individual authorities. The hon. Gentleman invented a figure and asked my right hon. Friend what would happen if it were to apply. The return figures were produced, and then the hon. Gentleman applied them generally. He has been caught out. The sum of £500 million is the amount of grant forgone this year, because local authorities, in aggregate, have spent about 4·5 per cent. more than was allowed for the RSG settlement. It is quite unrealistic to assume that, in due course, outturn figures will show that authorities have underspent their budgets by that amount. I accept that, traditionally, local authorities underspend against budgets, but not to that extent.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire), who has great knowledge of such matters, asked for an assurance about any errors that may emerge in the rate support grant settlement. The Bill fixes one component of the grant calculation—expenditure. The other components, particularly the assessment of spending needs, will be set out in the main RSG report. We hope that no supplementary reports will be needed for 1989–90, but the Bill does not prevent one being made if we discover that some adjustment is necessary.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) asked further questions. He particularly asked what would happen to local authorities that receive no block grant, and whether they will receive support for preparing for the introduction of the community charge. I am glad to answer that authorities that administer the community charge will receive an additional specific grant in the form of the £55 million that my right hon. Friend announced last week.
  The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) mentioned Cardiff city council. He argued that the Secretary of State for Wales gave a commitment that any reduction in expenditure in 1987–88 would result in an increase in grant. He alleged that the Bill breaches that commitment. Let me make the position clear. The Secretary of State gave that undertaking in December 1986, and repeated it in March 1987. The four authorities set their budgets for 1987–88. The authorities had the chance to take it into account when drawing up their plans for 1987–88 and in making their returns to the Welsh Office in spring 1987. The authorities had a further opportunity to report reduced expenditure in spring 1988, when treasurers reported their provisional outturn for 1987–88. Therefore, there was a full 18 months during which authorities could report their lower expenditure for the year concerned. The majority of Welsh authorities did so.
  Many hon. Members have spoken today as though they were re-fighting the Odsall by-election in Bradford. We have heard from the hon. Members for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall), for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) and for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), and we have heard from my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Michael: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that it is a point of order.
  Mr. Michael: The Minister is misleading the House on the—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Ministers do not deliberately mislead the House.
  Mr. Michael rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman may disagree, but it is not a point of order.
  Mr. Michael: Will the Minister give way?
  Mrs. Bottomley: I thank you for saving my reputation, Mr. Speaker. Ministers do not deliberately mislead the House—certainly not early in their careers. The hon. Gentleman is mean-spirited. I have devoted more time to responding to him than I have to many of my hon. Friends.
  Mr. Michael: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I suspect that it may still be a point of disagreement.
  Mr. Michael: No, Mr. Speaker. I wish to make it clear that I did not suggest in any way that the Minister was deliberately misleading the House. I said that what she said was wrong. I shall happily help her if she will allow me briefly to intervene. She is misleading the House.
  Mr. Speaker: Whether the Minister gives way is up to her.
  Mrs. Bottomley: I was planning to say that I hope that the hon. Gentleman will have many opportunities to pursue this point in Committee. There are many Welsh alleyways. At the moment, I should like to refer to Bradford.
  My hon. Friends the Members for Spelthorne, for Shipley (Sir M. Fox), for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Thurnham), for Stroud (Mr. Knapman) and for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) have referred to Bradford, where a brave group of councillors are beginning to try to set the city in order. It is a sign of the times that it is so newsworthy and a subject of such great public interest that setting Bradford to right, rather than all the difficulties it got into in the past, seems to make headlines. Opposition Members seem to have been suggesting that in some way decisions properly taken by a democratically elected council are the responsibility of the Government. We applaud any effort by local authorities, whatever their political persuasions, to provide their own people with better—
  Mr. Allen: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If there were to be a tied vote this evening, would you remind the House which way you would cast your vote?
  Mr. Speaker: That really is a hypothetical question.
  Mrs. Bottomley: I understand that it has been suggested that the use by the lord mayor of his casting vote was in some way improper. I draw the attention of Opposition Members to the fact that the Local Government Act 1972 provides that if there is an equality of votes the person presiding at the meeting shall have a second or casting vote. Similar provisions have been enshrined in local government legislation since at least the turn of the century.
  756
  We applaud the effort to promote competition and to contract out services. It offers an especially good opportunity for obtaining value for money. My hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) referred to Nye Bevan house. It is interesting that Opposition Members give so much attention to the prospect of selling old people's homes when some of the greatest abuses of recent years in old people's homes have involved homes owned and run by local authorities.
  Do Opposition Members not wish savings to be made? Do they want Bradford ratepayers to have to continue to shoulder the burden of the sixth highest local rate of any of the 36 metropolitan districts? Bradford receives a great deal of support from central Government. For example, it received £151·5 million in block grant this year, which was £40 million more than in 1987–88. It has an urban programme allocation of £4·5 million, of which £3·2 million has already been approved. Further resources within the allocation will be released if the council comes forward with suitable proposals. European Commission approval for support of Bradford's integrated development operation of just over £50 million is expected shortly.
  The hon. Member for Perry Barr referred to the role of local government. We would agree with much of what he said, but we also have a radical, modern and new view of local government. We believe that local government should be a facilitator and enabler, not necessarily the provider of services. We believe that local authorities can control so much better what they themselves do not necessarily organise. We are opposed to municipal aggrandisement. We look for a system of local government finance that will ensure the long sought-after accountability of local authorities to local people.
  The complexity and intensity of contributions to the debate provides yet further evidence, not that more is needed but that the time is long overdue to bring the present unwieldy system of central Government financing of local authorities to a speedy and final close. The time and effort spent by the House, councillors, local authority finance officers and long-suffering officials at Marsham Towers, and even newly appointed local government Ministers, in mastering the intricacies of the present system can scarcely be justified. In a number of local authorities so much effort is directed, with the help of some City institutions, towards manipulating the grant system to produce the greatest short-term advantage to the local authorities at the expense of the national taxpayer. Often this is understandable. This time and energy would be more appropriately spent on ensuring that necessary local services are delivered in a cost-effective and efficient manner that provides value for money.
  We have heard of efforts made by local authorities to reduce expenditure. This bodes well for the chargepayers of the future. Those who complain that their virtue is not being sufficiently rewarded by the Government's proposals to bring the present system to a timely and orderly end will be gratified that the major intention of our future system of local government finance is that such measures should be directly apparent to the chargepayers so that their virtue may be rewarded at the polls.
  Some of the efforts to reduce expenditure reflect the sincere attempt to get to grips with local authority spending. Others seem to be more ingenious than genuine. It is not entirely clear who owns Camden's lamp posts, let alone its library books and municipal art collection. We know that a French bank was reported to have bought its

  757
  parking meters. It is bookkeeping transactions or financial deals which are unrelated to true spending and which alter the level of reported total expenditure but which gain Government grant that we seek to prevent in our proposals. It is especially necessary that the close down of the present system offers a unique opportunity—[Interruption.] The Bill deserves the support of the House.
  Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
  The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 198.

  Division No. 461]

  [9.59

  AYES

  Aitken, Jonathan

  French, Douglas

  Alexander, Richard

  Fry, Peter

  Arbuthnot, James

  Gardiner, George

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Gill, Christopher

  Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Bottomley, Peter

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Gow, Ian

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Gower, Sir Raymond

  Brazier, Julian

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Bright, Graham

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & CI't's)

  Gregory, Conal

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Burns, Simon

  Grist, Ian

  Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

  Ground, Patrick

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Grylls, Michael

  Carrington, Matthew

  Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

  Cash, William

  Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)

  Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Chope, Christopher

  Hannam, John

  Churchill, Mr

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Harris, David

  Colvin, Michael

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Conway, Derek

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Hayward, Robert

  Cope, Rt Hon John

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Cormack, Patrick

  Heddle, John

  Couchman, James

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

  Curry, David

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Hind, Kenneth

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Day, Stephen

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Devlin, Tim

  Howard, Michael

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Dover, Den

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Dunn, Bob

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Durant, Tony

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Hunter, Andrew

  Eggar, Tim

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Irvine, Michael

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Jack, Michael

  Evennett, David

  Jackson, Robert

  Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

  Janman, Tim

  Fallon, Michael

  Jessel, Toby

  Favell, Tony

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Fishburn, John Dudley

  Key, Robert

  Forman, Nigel

  Kilfedder, James

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Forth, Eric

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Fox, Sir Marcus

  Knapman, Roger

  Franks, Cecil

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Freeman, Roger

  Knowles, Michael

  758

  Knox, David

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Latham, Michael

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Lilley, Peter

  Rost, Peter

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Rumbold, Mrs Angela

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Ryder, Richard

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  McCrindle, Robert

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Macfarlane, Sir Neil

  Scott, Nicholas

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Maclean, David

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  Madel, David

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Major, Rt Hon John

  Shersby, Michael

  Malins, Humfrey

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Mans, Keith

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Maples, John

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Marland, Paul

  Speller, Tony

  Marlow, Tony

  Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Squire, Robin

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Stanley, Rt Hon John

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Steen, Anthony

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Stern, Michael

  Mellor, David

  Stevens, Lewis

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

  Miller, Sir Hal

  Stradling Thomas, Sir John

  Mills, Iain

  Sumberg, David

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Summerson, Hugo

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Moate, Roger

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Morris, M (N'hampton S)

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Morrison, Sir Charles

  Thorne, Neil

  Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Moss, Malcolm

  Thurnham, Peter

  Moynihan, Hon Colin

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Mudd, David

  Tracey, Richard

  Neale, Gerrard

  Trippier, David

  Nelson, Anthony

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Neubert, Michael

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Waddington, Rt Hon David

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Waldegrave, Hon William

  Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

  Walden, George

  Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

  Waller, Gary

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Page, Richard

  Watts, John

  Paice, James

  Whitney, Ray

  Patnick, Irvine

  Widdecombe, Ann

  Patten, Chris (Bath)

  Wilkinson, John

  Patten, John (Oxford W)

  Wilshire, David

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Pawsey, James

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Wolfson, Mark

  Portillo, Michael

  Wood, Timothy

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Yeo, Tim

  Price, Sir David

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Raffan, Keith

  Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Redwood, John

  Mr. David Lightbown and

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Mr. Tom Sackville.

  Riddick, Graham

  NOES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Barron, Kevin

  Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

  Battle, John

  Allen, Graham

  Beckett, Margaret

  Alton, David

  Beith, A. J.

  Anderson, Donald

  Bell, Stuart

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Benn, Rt Hon Tony

  Armstrong, Hilary

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Ashton, Joe

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Blair, Tony

  Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

  Blunkett, David

  759

  Boateng, Paul

  Galloway, George

  Boyes, Roland

  Garrett, John (Norwich South)

  Bradley, Keith

  Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  George, Bruce

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Godman, Dr Norman A.

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Gordon, Mildred

  Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

  Graham, Thomas

  Buchan, Norman

  Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

  Buckley, George J.

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Caborn, Richard

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Callaghan, Jim

  Grocott, Bruce

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Hinchliffe, David

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Clay, Bob

  Holland, Stuart

  Clelland, David

  Home Robertson, John

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Hood, Jimmy

  Cohen, Harry

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

  Corbett, Robin

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Cousins, Jim

  Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

  Cryer, Bob

  Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

  Cummings, John

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Illsley, Eric

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Ingram, Adam

  Darling, Alistair

  Janner, Greville

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

  John, Brynmor

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'I)

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Dixon, Don

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Dobson, Frank

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Doran, Frank

  Lambie, David

  Douglas, Dick

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Leighton, Ron

  Dunnachie, Jimmy

  Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

  Eastham, Ken

  Lewis, Terry

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Litherland, Robert

  Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

  Livingstone, Ken

  Faulds, Andrew

  Livsey, Richard

  Fearn, Ronald

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Fisher, Mark

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Flannery, Martin

  McCartney, Ian

  Flynn, Paul

  Macdonald, Calum A.

  Foster, Derek

  McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

  Fraser, John

  McKelvey, William

  Galbraith, Sam

  McLeish, Henry

  760

  McNamara, Kevin

  Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

  McTaggart, Bob

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  McWilliam, John

  Rogers, Allan

  Madden, Max

  Rooker, Jeff

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Marek, Dr John

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Sheerman, Barry

  Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Meacher, Michael

  Short, Clare

  Meale, Alan

  Skinner, Dennis

  Michael, Alun

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

  Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  Snape, Peter

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Spearing, Nigel

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Morley, Elliott

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Stott, Roger

  Mowlam, Marjorie

  Strang, Gavin

  Mullin, Chris

  Straw, Jack

  Murphy, Paul

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Nellist, Dave

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

  O'Brien, William

  Turner, Dennis

  O'Neill, Martin

  Vaz, Keith

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Wall, Pat

  Parry, Robert

  Walley, Joan

  Patchett, Terry

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  Pendry, Tom

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Pike, Peter L.

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan

  Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

  Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

  Prescott, John

  Winnick, David

  Primarolo, Dawn

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Wray, Jimmy

  Radice, Giles

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Randall, Stuart

  Redmond, Martin

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Reid, Dr John

  Mr. Frank Haynes and

  Richardson, Jo

  Mrs. Llin Golding.

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Neubert.]
  Committee tomorrow.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That, at this day's sitting, the Foreign Marriage (Amendment) Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Neubert.]

  Rate Support Grants Bill [Money]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Rate Support Grants Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of money so provided under any other Act.—[Mr. Neubert.]
  10.14 pm
  Mr. Bob Cryer: I do not think that we should allow money resolutions to go through on the nod. There may well be some public expenditure involved. The resolution that we are debating authorises
  "the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of money so provided under any other Act."
  However, the financial effects of the Bill are not clearly set out in the explanatory and financial memorandum.[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Will hon. Members beyond the Bar please leave quietly?
  Mr. Cryer: These are important matters, Mr. Speaker, and I am grateful for your attention.
  The relevant paragraph states:
  "The Bill will require calculations and estimates of individual authorities' block grant entitlements to be based not on their total expenditure but on the relevant amount as defined by the Bill."
  The "relevant amount" is defined in schedule 1. The result is that the aggregate amount of block grant payable for the years 1985–86 to 1989–90 may be either more or less than if the block grant entitlements were based on total expenditure.
  I want to know what the financial effects of the Bill, as calculated by the Department, will be. Will more money be paid out? When the Minister opened the debate, I understood him to say that all the information has been received from the local authorities, apart from two. Therefore, the Department ought to have been able to calculate the financial effects of the Bill. I accept that the Department cannot be precise, but it ought to be able to provide some information.
  The paragraph on the financial effects of a Bill usually says that it will cost, say, an additional £15 million or £20 million. Occasionally that amount cannot be calculated, and then it is a matter for the House. This paragraph is not the clearest that has ever been contained in an explanatory and financial memorandum. Will the financial effects of the Bill enable the £38 million that an all-party delegation that visited the Department of the Environment asked should be paid to Bradford to be paid? Bradford has been the subject of considerable debate. The point has been made repeatedly that, according to the local authority's calculations, £38 million has been denied to Bradford over a period of three years. Should a calculation of that kind be included in the financial effects of the Bill?
  Bradford will suffer a cut of £3·7 million because of the Bill. Some local authorities will benefit from it, but it appears that most local authorities will suffer a cut. Bradford, with the Right-wing Tory clique in control, faces difficulties. The Tories appear to have been taken over by Right-wing extremists. I hope that traditional members of the Tory party—the one-nation group, or the wets as they are contemptuously described by the Prime
  762
  Minister—will exert themselves in Bradford and stand out against these onerous and vicious attacks on the people of Bradford.
  Bradford will face a cut of £3·7 million. On top of the cuts for all local authorities, the general financial effect will be a cut in Government expenditure. I understand the reason for the money resolution. If there should be an unauthorised increase in expenditure, the Government will have to come back to the House for that authority, so it is convenient for them to obtain that authorisation now. However, I should like to know what the precise effects will be, how much money is involved and whether the £38 million that is due to Bradford will be paid.
  10.19 pm
  Mr. Frank Haynes: I am pleased to hear the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer). There is no doubt about it: what he says is quite true. There will be massive cuts. I hope that the Minister for Housing and Planning is listening, rather than reading and talking, because we have a credible Opposition over here. Now the Minister is laughing because he finds that funny. We are a credible Opposition talking seriously about a serious problem. I wish that the Minister would not talk to his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, but that he would listen to what is being said.
  We are talking about the problems of local authorities. I am afraid that, although we have a Conservative-controlled local authority in the city of Nottingham, on Thursday the Conservatives will lose control of that council and we shall then be able to put things right in Nottingham.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South is right about the cuts that the Government have made in local authority grants, which seriously affect the services provided by those authorities. Earlier today the Minister would not give way to me. He is going to get it now. He stood there like Maria Heep. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who is Maria Heep?"] When they sit round the table in the Department, they are all like Maria Heep, looking to see where they can cut and cut and seriously affect our local authority services.
  I come now to a very serious point—
  Mr. Roger King: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Haynes: That fellow has not been here very long. Some of us have been here a long time.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. He is not "that fellow". He is an hon. Member.
  Mr. Haynes: I accept your ticking off, Mr. Speaker, as always. The hon. Gentleman has not been here very long. Some of us who have been here a long while know how the House works under the Conservative Government. The hon. Gentleman supports the Government, although it will be interesting to find out whether he supports them tomorrow night.
  My local authority strives very hard, under the difficult circumstances created by cuts in the rate support grant, to provide the necessary services. The Minister does not seem to realise that, whereas we used to have nine coal mines in my constituency, we now have only four. The mines made a massive contribution in rates. Now that money has gone and this lot have not made it up. In Ashfield we are

  763
  struggling to provide the necessary services, and now the lads are having to sit around the table because of the law that this lot have passed and because of decisions that they have made. My colleagues are having to try to find ways of cutting services that they should be providing. They were providing the services before 1979. The hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Brandon-Bravo) should not look surprised.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo rose—
  Mr. Haynes: I see that I have drawn him.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: It would he quite wrong to allow the House to think that when a mine closes the local authority loses rates and that jobs are lost. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the site of the Wilford pit, in my constituency, which was closed, now accommodates the Queen's industrial estate, which employs four times as many people as ever went down the pit.
  Mr. Haynes: I did not mention jobs. I simply talked about the rate support grant and said that the industry paid rates which were lost when the pits closed.
  Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse: Is my hon. Friend aware that what the hon. Member for Nottinghamshire, South (Mr. Brandon-Bravo) said does not apply in all areas? In my constituency, there were eight pits before the miners' strike and there is now one, and no jobs have been put in their place—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This is a debate on the money resolution, not about jobs.
  Mr. Haynes: That is right. That is why I steered clear of the subject. I was not going to have you pull me up again, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Nottinghamshire, South drew me into the subject as he mentioned Wilford pit, which is in his constituency. When that pit closed, there was a Labour Government. We made it right when the pit closed. This lot do not. Services have to be cut. My colleagues in Ashfield have to see what services they can cut to come into line with the laws that this lot make. I am talking about the Government. I could say many things about the right hon. Lady at No. 10, but I shall not wander off the money resolution. No doubt there will be other opportunities to talk about her. I have always tried to stay within the rules of the House and your strictures, Mr. Speaker.
  The Government have cut ever since I have been here. I came here when they came to power. Like many others, my local authority is struggling to provide services. Ministers and the Prime Minister say regularly that some local authorities are overspending. I am making out a case for my local authority, which has lost money in two ways. First, it has lost as a result of pit closures. Five pits have gone, so there is a lot less money coming in to provide services. Secondly, the Government have cut rate support grant.
  How does the Minister expect my colleagues in Ashfield to provide necessary services? They have difficulty standing still, never mind providing the additional services that are required. When the Minister spoke on Second Reading, he would not give way to me and give me an opportunity to put my case to him. He was frit. He did not know what was coming. He looked at me and said, "I am not giving way to the hon. Member." It will be there in
  764
  Hansard. I said that I would have a word with him outside, but the money resolution has given me an opportunity to put my case to him now. I am looking for some answers.
  I know that the Minister has moved from the agriculture Ministry. He was supposed to look after wild animals while he was there, but he did not do a very good job. I hope that, now he has moved, he will help my local authority to overcome some of its financial difficulties. I do not want the Minister to sit on his backside and say nothing. He should let me know what he will do about it.
  10.28 pm
  Mr. Alun Michael: I am sad to note the lack of a Welsh Office Minister in the Chamber, as I want to return to a point that I raised earlier. Perhaps the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower) has rushed into the House to support my argument because of the way in which ratepayers in his constituency will be affected by the money resolution.
  Does the money resolution take account of the likely legal costs of disentangling the arguments which are inevitable in view of the impropriety of the elements in the Bill to which I drew attention earlier and which were ignored in the Minister's winding-up speech?
  In her summing up the Minister made great play of the benefits of certainty, as did her ministerial colleague earlier in the debate, and she referred to statements by the former Secretary of State for Wales and the Secretary of State for the Environment. Those statements offered certainty that the final grant decision made by the Government would be determined not by updated estimates, to which the hon. Lady referred, but by the actual money spent by the local authority. Those assurances were given in the House, without equivocation, there were no ifs and buts, yet the point was avoided during the debate and in the Minister's reponse. Both Ministers made great play of the benefits of certainty, but they offered the House all the predictive certainty of being told, "You were hanged yesterday. so would you kindly lie down in the coffin and stop making a noise about it?"
  Cabinet Ministers gave assurances to the House about precisely how the system would operate. There is bound to be an argument, because the Bill seeks to overturn those explicit and clear assurances.
  I spoke earlier of two local authorities that had met all the Government's requirements and more. How can Ministers come to the House and suggest that, somehow, a failure to answer a questionnaire, which was not about actual costs, but about estimated costs, which was not available until a couple of days before the statement in the House on 7 July, which did not require a response until the end of July, is the basis upon which they can change the rules overnight?
  If there is any integrity among Ministers, they will accept my point and amend the Bill during its passage through the House. I hope to be able to welcome such a move at a later stage of the Bill, and not to have to worry about whether the money resolution caters for the inevitable arguments that will arise if they do not.
  10.31 pm.
  Mr. Tony Banks: I want to ask the Minister some questions about the aspects of the money resolution that affect staffing, under the heading:
  "Public service manpower effects of the Bill."

  765
  "Staffing effects' would be more appropriate wording. Having heard Ministers speak in many local government debates about staffing implications and reductions in the number of people employed within local authority areas because of the provisions passed here, none of which they have been prepared to quantify, will the Minister this evening tell us what staffing requirements will stem from the Bill?
  The Bill states:
  "There will be a small reduction in staffing requirements within central government"—
  I trust that it will not affect the Minister's job, or that of his colleagues on the Government Front Bench—
  "and there may also be a small reduction in the administrative work load of local authorities."
  Will the Minister at least attempt to give us some idea of the numbers? Hopefully, he will be able to secure the information that he obviously needs. If the Bill says that there will be a small reduction, surely someone somewhere must have a figure for that.
  I do not understand how a local authority such as Brent, which will suffer a £9 million loss because of the Bill, the London borough of Greenwich, which will suffer a £1·2 million loss, or the London borough of Southwark, which will also suffer a financial loss, will be able to reduce the number of staff required to administer the new system. As there is a large number of losers as well as gainers from the Bill, clearly the administrative problems of local authorities will be enormous. In those circumstances, when faced with a Government who keep changing the rules, making life more and more difficult for treasurers' departments, how on earth can the Minister justify the statement that
  "there may also be a small reduction in the administrative work load of local authorities."?
  It sounds like pious hopes. As with so many other aspects of local authority legislation that we have unfortunately passed in the House, Ministers and Conservative Members have some ideas about what they would like to see in the future, but at the same time they are unprepared to— [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) is disrupting my concentration. I cannot work out whether he wants to join the Conservative party or to impart important information. Perhaps he feels that the points that he made in his contribution need more detailed intercourse with the Minister and that is why he has crossed the Floor. If so, he places a low value on the power of his oratory, which we all value. I am sure that the Minister understood the points that he made without it being necessary for him to cross the Floor and explain in detail in his right ear.
  The Minister will have to quantify the statement made in the Bill. We have heard so many promises from Ministers about the staffing implications and the impact of various aspects of local government legislation that the Minister cannot be surprised at the fact that we do not believe what we read in the Bill. Perhaps the Minister will explain what is meant in terms of numbers.
  10.36 pm
  Mr. Pat Wall: In making the financial calculations on the Bill I wonder whether the Minister has taken account of rent arrears in respect of local government finances. It is an important point. There
  766
  have been cuts of £28·4 billion in central Government support to local government since 1970 and there is a growing problem of rent arrears. It has been calculated that Bradford has lost £80,000 a week in housing benefit. That means that we lose £4·1 million a year in benefits. Of that £80,000, £67,000 relates to local authority tenants and only £13,000 relates to private tenants. Because that money has not been paid, the poorest in our community have to spend money on rent that they would normally have spent on food, clothing and essentials. That has a multiplier effect in terms of a loss of expenditure in the city.
  For the first time in Bradford's history council house rent arrears passed the £2 million figure some weeks ago. That has an enormous effect on the general standard of living, the general revenue of the council and the general welfare of the citizens of Bradford. The story is the same in other cities. Doncaster has one of the lowest levels of council house rent arrears. However, since the introduction of the new social security measures on housing benefit, debts in council house rents to the Doncaster local authority have increased by 50 per cent. On a television programme we saw and heard about a gentleman who was paying rent. The proportion that he had to pay had increased from £6 to £26. To ask an unemployed man to find an extra £20 a week is a harsh imposition.
  Can the Minister give us some idea of the Government's views on that issue?
  10.39 pm
  The Minister for Housing and Planning (Mr. John Selwyn Gummer): I shall respond to the reasonable comments of the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer). Until we have certain audited reports from local authorities, I cannot give him, as I think he realises, an exact final outcome. That is why we have a money resolution.
  It may be that over the number of years concerned we will pay out rather more of taxpayers' money to local authorities than we would have done had we not made these changes. Any argument that people are losing or being cheated under these arrangements falls to the ground. We expect that over the years the amount paid out will be even-Stephen, but I cannot guarantee that. My guess is that it might be a little more than we expect. As long as it is not too much more I should be sympathetic, because it would prove that everything that I have said is true. The hon. Member for Bradford, South was right to raise the matter, and I hope the House will accept that as a reasonable assessment in advance of the audited reports.
  The hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) generously and politely explained that he would have to leave, but he has returned, so I shall say what I intended to say in the first place. I am sorry that I did not give way to him, not because of what happened thereafter—although I was glad that it happened openly rather than in the dark corridors of this building—but because I gave way generously to many hon. Members, and at some point one has to say no. I thought that he was mature enough an hon. Member—he said how long he had been an hon. Member—to take it in the way that it was intended. I have nothing against the hon. Gentleman, and we have crossed swords with pleasure—
  Mr. Haynes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Normally, the Minister says "No, I am not giving way any

  767
  more", but he said to me "I am not giving way to that hon. Member", which is different. I am asking the Minister to put things right.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order. That was the last debate.
  Mr. Gummer: If the way in which I refused to give way to the hon. Member for Ashfield caused him embarassment or remorse, I apologise. I very much enjoy crossing swords with the hon. Gentleman, but I refused to give way to two of his hon. Friends and I thought that it would have been invidious to pick him out after our long association in agriculture matters. I am pleased to note his interest in this subject, and I should not have liked to miss it.
  The House is indebted to the hon. Member for Ashfield, because if he was not the hon. Member for Ashfield we might have had the present deputy leader of Nottinghamshire county council. Had that gentleman been chosen, although we would have done' Nottinghamshire county council a favour, we would have rued the day to a degree that I should not like to contemplate.
  The Conservative-controlled city of Nottingham—I am trying to apply this closely to the money resolution—has done much good for its people. I was lucky enough to see the extremely good refurbishment of council houses, which it now takes five weeks to complete instead of a year. Young couples are able to obtain council houses, which is an opportunity that they would never have had if the Socialists had been in control. I disagree with the comments of the hon. Member for Ashfield about one of the best-run councils in the United Kingdom. I am sad that the hon. Gentleman—a man of such upstanding and outstanding worth—should have looked forward to linking arms with a Communist to control the city—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Now perhaps we can get to the money resolution.
  Mr. Gummer: I was coming to that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The money resolution has been attacked by the hon. Member for Ashfield, who said that the closure of nine coalfields would have an effect on—
  Mr. Haynes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I did not refer to the closure of nine pits. I referred to the closure of five out of nine.
  Mr. Gummer: I am sorry—the closure of five out of nine coal mines. That meant that the rates that would have come from those five hypothecated coal pits would no longer come to the local authority That is true. But the rate support grant that is given to the local authority is adjusted to take account of the reduced local resources. The hon. Member for Ashfield always wants to have it both ways. I now see that I should have given way to him. That would have been a useful point to make in the middle of a debate that was perhaps even better attended than this one.
  It was a pity that the hon. Member for Ashfield referred to laws that "that lot"—the Conservatives—had passed. These are not laws that we have passed. They are laws that Parliament has passed. It is important in a democracy to accept that, when Parliament has decided, we have all decided and we all obey those laws. We now have an Opposition who say that they do not pay taxes that they do not like, who advise other people not to pay taxes that
  768
  they do not like, and who do not sack Opposition spokesmen who promote that view. Therefore, the hon. Member for Ashfield is only taking his cue from his leader.
  The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) asked whether there would be extra payment for the legal costs of disentangling the arguments that would result from the money resolution. One reason for this simple stocktaking system is that we do not want to have vast legal costs and arguments to decide whether this or that audited report is right or wrong, or whether this or that date which this or that local authority decides is right is the right one. We have a simple system about which legal arguments cannot obtain, because it is what we received on 7 July. There is a good reason for doing that.
  Cardiff city council had a very long time—well before it produced its budgets and well before 7 July was near —to make such adjustments to its spending as it thought suitable. It did not do so. I find it difficult to say that Ministers, the House and the whole of the United Kingdom must wait for Cardiff city council to decide at what point it will please it to meet the statutory requirements. It is not unreasonable, when all that time has been given, to take the figures that were given by the council's financial officer, and signed by him as the best estimates that he could give, as the figures upon which the Government could act. I cannot see that there is an alternative if one is moving from one system to another.
  Mr. Michael rose—
  Mr. Gummer: We are about to move into the Committee stage of the Bill and I do not wish to presume upon your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I have a suspicion that you might suggest that detailed discussions of the Bill's effect on Cardiff city council would be more appropriately dealt with when we come to the clause which covers that matter.
  Mr. Michael rose—
  Mr. Gummer: I am happy to continue arguing with the hon. Gentleman, but I have given way to him, if not four times, then certainly three, so I do not intend to do so again.
  Mr. Michael rose—
  Mr. Gummer: I gave way three times and my hon. Friend the Minister gave way once. That was four times in one debate. It is not unreasonable to complete this debate without giving way.
  The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) talked about staffing resources. I do not have an exact figure. We have suggested that, with a system that most people can understand, it is likely that fewer people will be needed to organise it at local authority level than if it were complicated. That is all that has been carried out.
  I cannot accept that it is reasonable for local authorities such as Brent to fail to deliver their figures months after the date on which they are supposed to do so. I cannot see that one can run a public authority on the basis that Greenwich runs its public authority when, after having repeatedly been asked for the figures, it still does not give them. Greenwich received the form for 1986–87 on 26 May for return by 31 July 1987, but had still not returned it by 7 July 1988.
  How can we have accountability and a sensible system of running local authorities when people cannot produce

  769
  a form a year after it is sent to them? A private business would be struck off the companies register if it behaved in that way. Someone would make it clear that it had to be done and would come round and collect the form. It is certainly not reasonable for the hon. Gentleman to complain that the Government should have allowed more time. We cannot give him the figures that he wants, because some authorities seem to find it difficult even to fill in a form on time.
  I do not know how Brent intends to deal with this, just as we do not know how Brent intends to clean up the streets. The hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. O'Brien) is no longer present—I am sorry that Labour Front-Bench Members are not here to discuss the money resolution which their supporters regard as so important—but, in the light of his comment about people wanting their streets kept clean, I hope that he will go to Brent and see what happens when a Left-wing Labour authority cannot, and in certain areas says that it will not, keep the streets clean.
  Mr. Tony Banks rose—
  Mr. Gummer: No, I shall not give way. The hon. Member who made the point is not here, so he deserves to have it thrown back at him.
  I was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall) raise the subject of rent arrears, as one of our problems has been that Labour authorities have not called on people to pay the rent that is due. They have not collected the rents, and have very often then asked taxpayers elsewhere, in local authorities which have collected their rents, to make up the shortfall. That seems wholly unacceptable. The hon. Gentleman must look a little beyond Bradford and ask himself whether it is fair that other people should bear the burden of an authority that has failed to collect its own rents.
  As for the hon. Gentleman's comments about the Social Security Act, we are spending more money on social security, not less, but we are concentrating that greater amount on those who most need it. The result, therefore, should be more regular payment of rents rather than less. It is only because of Labour party propaganda that anyone has used that Act as an excuse.
  The battle in Bradford, and in many other places, is not so much about the town hall being run by one lot of people rather than another, but about whether it should be run by cosy arrangements with the unions or on the basis of value for money. If local authorities were run on the basis of value for money, the money would be available to provide the services that are necessary in so many areas. The hon. Member for Bradford, North will rue the day he raised the subject of rent arrears, because in this regard Labour authorities are the experts. It is they who have failed to collect the rents and then had the effrontery to ask the general taxpayer to pay for their incompetence and their uselessness.
  Mr. Max Madden: The debt counselling unit of Bradford citizens advice bureau has done an impressive job in reducing rent arrears by advising people how to manage their affairs more effectively, but the CAB is threatened with closure because the new Tory controlling group is threatening to remove its funding from the budget as well as refusing to provide additional funding for the debt counselling unit. We share the
  770
  Minister's concern about the rent arrears and other debts that are building up as a direct result of Government credit policy. Will he therefore ensure that Bradford CAB receives the necessary support to continue its important work and that extra funding is made available by the Department of Trade and Industry to the CAB nationally so that people can be given more advice about managing their affairs, which will help to reduce the debts about which he and I are so concerned?
  Mr. Gummer: Although I understand the hon. Gentleman, there appear to be two precisely opposite points. The hon. Member for Bradford, North said that the amount of rent arrears in Bradford had increased out of all proportion. The hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) has asked me to congratulate the CAB on the reduction in rent arrears. It must be one or the other. I have great respect for the CAB, which is an extremely efficient body that works hard in my constituency. I do not know the precise arrrangements in Bradford for its funding because I believe in local government and I expect Bradford city council to make its own decisions on how to spend its ratepayers' money. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I do not believe in central control over how local authorities make decisions.
  Mr. Wall rose—
  Mr. Gummer: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman because I have been very tough about his remarks.
  Mr. Wall: Rent arrears in Bradford have risen to above £2 million for the first time. However, that does not conflict with what my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) said. Considerable efforts have been made to reduce that debt. The problems of debt arise, not because people deliberately want to defraud other citizens who are paying their rent, but because of the impossible position in which those people now find themselves.
  I deliberately refer to Doncaster, which has a Labour administration. According to the Audit Commission, it has one of the best records for rent collection in the country. It is not the most prosperous area, but it has the Yorkshire tradition of meeting its bills. If rent arrears in Doncaster have risen by 50 per cent., it is a sign of real problems for families. The problem will be compounded even further by the increase in rents in Bradford well above the level of inflation, and in electricity prices nationally. It is really striking home that the CAB has had to put at least half its staff on to debt counselling, which shows that there is a real problem, not just some invention.
  Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman must still face the fact that the Government have increased the amount provided for social security, but have directed it at those who are most in need. Therefore, those who were least able to pay their rents should now be able more easily to pay them. That is a fact of life. If hon. Gentlemen insist—
  Mr. Allen McKay rose—
  Mr. Gummer: I shall not give way, as I have given way many times already during this debate, as I did in the previous one.
  If we are to have a society in which we try to help those who are least well off, it means that those who can afford

  771
  to pay their rents should be encouraged to do so as a matter of priority, rather than that being put at the bottom of the list.
  Mr. Allen McKay rose—
  Mr. Gummer: I shall not give way. I have already told the hon. Gentleman that.
  It is clear that Labour authorities are less willing, less enthusiastic and less hard working in the collection of rents than are Conservative authorities. Until that is changed I shall take no lessons from those who fail to
  772
  produce the figures, but who ask the remainder of the community—decent, hard-working people who pay their rents—to pay their rents in advance.
  It being three-quarters of an hour after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business).
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Rate Support Grants Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of money so provided under any other Act.

  Foreign Marriage (Amendment) Bill [Lords]
  Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time—[Mr. Neubert.]
  10.59 pm
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell): The Bill tidies up the legislation relating to marriages abroad. In their report on the subject published last year the English and Scottish Law Commissions decided against recommending a comprehensive reform of the choice of law rules relating to marriage, but, nevertheless, they considered that there was scope for detailed reform of some provisions of the Foreign Marriage Act 1892. The useful result is this small Bill. The schedule alone perhaps merits a footnote in the text books of constitutional history.
  I am grateful to the House for the support that has been accorded to the Bill and to the Law Commissions for their endeavour, and I commend its Third Reading.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed, without amendment.

  Road Traffic (Penalty Points)
  11 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Peter Bottomley): I beg to move,
  That the draft Penalty Points (Alteration) Order 1988, which was laid before this House on 21st October 1988, be approved.
  It is not just the law that has led this country to having the lowest road casualty rate of those countries that have cars and whose populations drink. In about 1983, in relation to population and the number of motor vehicles, Japan's casualty rate improved dramatically and, I think, led the world. It is generally recognised now that Britain is in the lead. Last year, our casualty rate dropped by 10 per cent. We had about a 5 per cent. reduction in casualties. In 1987, the number of people killed and seriously injured was reduced by about 5 to 6 per cent. There are many things to be grateful for.
  What we cannot be grateful for is that road offences contributed to a large number of the 5,200 people who died and the 300,000 who were injured on our roads last year. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set a target of cutting the number of casualties by one third by the year 2000, so that, within the next 11 years, we want to save about 1,700 lives and about 100,000 injuries a year.
  There can be nothing more serious in transport than safety. During the last year or so, the House has heard about many transport safety issues. The House rightly gives attention to air safety, public transport safety, and safety at sea. Tragically, one can add up the deaths on other forms of transport but they would not amount to more than the number of road deaths in a month or two in a bad year. We cannot put names to the people who will die or be injured, but we know roughly how many child pedestrians, cyclists, car drivers, lorry drivers and so on will be killed or injured. The facts are too obvious and too serious to allow the present situation to continue.
  I now refer to the role of the law. Obviously, the police have an important job in enforcement, but it is not purely in enforcement. They do a great deal of work in school road safety education. They are welcomed in most schools. I acknowledge that there is little political in road casualty reduction. The police do good work, road safety officers do good work, and many parents do what they can to encourage road safety training for children. I pay tribute to the media, especially local and regional media—radio, television and newspapers—who constantly return to what we can do to make safer our co-operative interaction on the roads.
  There is a role for the courts, which is imposing penalties after due convictions. The purpose of the order is to increase penalty points for four road traffic offences. Those offences are careless or inconsiderate driving, failure to stop after an accident, failing to give particulars or report an accident, and driving without insurance against third party risks. The order, if passed, would come into effect on 1 March 1989.
  The increases arise from recommendations in the report of the road traffic law review, the North report. I pay tribute to those who served on the committee. I recommend those who have an interest to read the report, which is closely argued and well presented in plain English.
  Mr. Roger King: My hon. Friend has referred to the North committee, which

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  reported in April, and he invited many outside bodies and organisations to comment on the report by September. My hon. Friend is bringing forward proposals that pre-empt any of the consultations which may or may not have taken place. In other words, he has not really given sufficient time for outside bodies to bring forward their views on the North report. Why is my hon. Friend being so hasty?
  Mr. Bottomley: The North committee put out for consultation some initial views. My hon. Friend rightly says that the committee reported in April. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave his preliminary response to the North report on 26 July. In that was the decision to recommend to the House the four specific changes that are before us. Anyone who reads the 16th and 17th chapters of the North report will find the reasons for that.
  My hon. Friend will recognise also that the Government are not putting to the House precisely what the North committee recommended. Our proposals incorporate more flexibility than that which the committee recommended. It is worth noticing also that the primary body with the most major concern is the Royal Automobile Club. As an associate member of the RAC, I lean rather more to the Automobile Association's views than those of the RAC, but I do not want to try to balance the numbers in either organisation.
  We are trying to deal with the problems that arise from a range of careless or inconsiderate driving offences, along with failure to stop after an accident, failure to report an accident or give particulars of it, and driving without insurance against third-party risks. The issue is why there should be further delay if the House comes to the conclusion, as the North committee did, that these problems should be brought into the open.
  Mr. Gary Waller: Does my hon. Friend agree that one body that might have an interest in this matter is the Magistrates Association, whose members have to administer the law? What has the association's response been to these proposals, and what account has my hon. Friend taken of its views in coming to his conclusion?
  Mr. Bottomley: I have taken fair account of the association's views and I have spent quite a lot of time with magistrates. I have not been able to get round to all the county associations, but when I was with 300 magistrates in a particular county, not one of them raised one of the four issues that are before us, even though the relevant announcement was made on 26 July.
  I welcome the views that are submitted by the association, but I do not believe that there is a burning sense of injustice that the discretion that magistrates traditionally want, which was not recommended by the inter-departmental working party report in 1981, nor by the North committee, has not been given to them.
  It is obvious to the majority, and certainly to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. King), whose motoring interests are well known to me and to the House as a whole, that there are three opportunities for the exercise of discretion. Perhaps the middle one is not really discretion. The first opportunity rests with whether a motorist is charged. The police can issue an informal warning or a caution. The second opportunity lies with whether the court finds that an alleged offence is proved. The third opportunity arises when consideration is given to what the penalty shall be. It is worth noting that in none
  776
  of these offences are we talking about immediate disqualification. Instead, we are discussing a range of penalty points.
  If a motorist subsequently or previously accumulates penalty points, it is up to the court to exercise its discretion when determining what the period of disqualification should be. If a motorist feels that he has been unlucky in being charged and has been wrongly convicted, and has penalty points, he may have a sense of grievance. Such a case would require the magistrates to impose a period of disqualification which would be disproportionate to the various offences.
  I do not think that anyone would claim that any particular range is necessarily precise or that no argument could be advanced for a wider range or for no range at all, so we should remove the discretion element. I submit that what is before the House makes sense.
  It might be sensible if I were to end my introductory remarks now, listened to hon. Members' views and responded in greater detail later rather than trying to anticipate what might be said. There has been much discussion about undercharging and, in the Government's view, the careless driving offence should go to the top of the proposed range. I remind the House that the North committee recommended that any offence that would earn two penalty points would more properly be dealt with by a caution or a warning.
  The number of people who fail to stop after an accident, possibly because of links to drink driving, has been rising. The failure to give particulars or report an accident where necessary is an important offence and can lead to a lack of compensation and redress for innocent parties in crashes. To drive without insurance is a serious office and the House should demonstrate that by accepting the proposed changes.
  If there are points to which I should respond later, I will do so.
  11.10 pm
  Mr. Tony Lloyd: The issue of consultation has already been raised by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. King) and I have considerable sympathy with his view. I do not think that it is satisfactory to come to the House and say that, because the Government's view was trailed, that is an excuse for not allowing the consultation process its full merit. It is worth considering what the North committee said about consultation. Paragraph 1.8 states:
  "It was, in our view, very desirable to give the widest opportunity for that experience to be made available to us. For many people the use of the roads is the aspect of their lives where their own behaviour and the rules laid down by Parliament and enforced by the police most often come together. We took the view, therefore, that it was essential that road traffic law should command the widest possible support. This made it important that everyone concerned about the areas of road traffic law to which we were directed should have, and feel that they had had, an opportunity to convey their views to us."
  I commend that principle to the Minister. Inevitably the way in which the public perceive the laws and penalties that Parliament imposes is of fundamental importance to the success with which our road traffic laws are operated.
  On this occasion I am in the rather unusual position of agreeing essentially with the Government's proposals, but there is a real issue about consultation. I hope that in future the Department of Transport and the Ministers

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  involved will accept that the public are more reassured by a proper consultation exercise and the belief that it takes account of a diversity of views even though inevitably in the nature of things where views are contrary some will have to be ignored.
  I join the Minister in saying that many hon. Members view with some seriousness the fact that road traffic offences are seen in a different light from many other forms of behaviour that bring the individual into conflict with the law. There is a sense in which road traffic offences are seen as being morally neutral or acceptable. In passing laws, it is important that the House makes it clear that they are backed by the sanctions of Parliament and that, where offences have serious consequences for society in general, there can be no argument other than that the penalties should reflect the serious consequences.
  The Royal Automobile Club wrote to all hon. Members, commenting on the changes that the order seeks to introduce, and perhaps it will help if I go through them one by one. Careless driving must be seen in the light of the North report's generalcomments—that that offence must be taken in the context of other changes that the report recommends.
  It is a little unsatisfactory that we have a small measure before the House tonight when major legislation is, one assumes, to be delayed for at least one full Session. Perhaps the Minister will say what is in the Government's mind in introducing a more substantial review of the law in the light of the North report.
  There will inevitably be some dissatisfaction if the present offence of reckless driving will, at the lowest level, attract only one penalty point more than careless driving. I do not want Conservative Members to imagine that I am over-sympathetic with the view that a nine-point penalty is not appropriate for careless driving. North and his colleagues clearly make the point that there are certain circumstances in which careless driving must be viewed as a very serious offence; they describe it as "a quite serious offence."
  There are circumstances in which "a quite serious offence" merits an individual being subject to a penalty level that will take him three quarters of the way to disqualification, which is the argument put forward in the report. I should not want Conservative Members to assume that, because I sympathise with the view that we are in danger of having too narrow a differential between the offences of reckless driving and careless driving, I believe that the maximum penalty for careless driving should be altered. That, too, is a serious offence, and the nine-point penalty reflects that it is.
  I accept the point made in the report and reiterated by the Minister that, at the lower level, if an offence is not worthy of at least three penalty points, the offender should not be required to appear before the courts. However, such a policy needs to be clearly defined by the Department and thoroughly understood by those responsible for its administration. It is at the point where people are brought before the court for a relatively trivial offence, and consequently feel a sense of injustice, that the law will cease to command the respect of the motoring public.
  For the offence of failing to stop after an accident or failing to report one, the balance that is before the House tonight is about right. In most circumstances, that ought
  778
  to be viewed as a serious offence. The RAC makes the point that there are circumstances in which failing to stop after or to report an accident may seem a trivial or technical offence. If it is the result of ignorance, then, as North comments, no offence can really be said to have been committed. Again, a purely technical or trivial offence ought not to merit court proceedings.
  The alternative is the calculated offence of deliberately failing to stop after or to report an accident. It must be viewed seriously in the light of the increasing number of such offences, particularly the oft quoted example where the offender concerned has been drinking and driving, and whose failure to stop or report the accident is a way of getting round automatic disqualification.
  I believe that I am correct in thinking that one of the reasons why the Government diverge from North in that respect is the way in which the law is structured. They insist that, rather than have a fixed penalty, it is necessary to substitute one range of penalties for another. Therefore, this Parliament has inevitably saddled itself with some slight untidiness in its primary legislation.
  Driving without insurance should be viewed as a very serious offence. I do not feel that it can be argued that there is such a thing as a technical offence in this context. Failure to be insured should command little sympathy from hon. Members, for the consequences are potentially very serious for those who may be accident victims. I have little sympathy with the suggestion that a "technical offence" should receive a lower penalty. I consider that, if anything, the upper range is about right, although the courts will be able to use their discretion in applying a penalty of between six and eight points. But it must be firmly established that two offences of failure to possess adequate insurance cover would lead to disqualification, because it would be criminal folly for the offence to be repeated. In some circumstances, the deliberate failure to carry insurance should, in my view, lead to automatic disqualification, but that again would have to be taken into account by the courts.
  It would be helpful if the Minister took us into his confidence and told us how the North report generally will be dealt with, and if he would comment specifically on consultation. As I have said, I have some sympathy with his hon. Friend the Member for Northfield, who has his own doubts about that aspect.
  11.21 pm
  Mr. Roger Moate: I consider tonight's proceedings very unsatisfactory. If I were speaking on behalf of all motorists, which I do not claim to do, I should feel that they, too, would think this an unsatisfactory way of handling a matter that is of such importance to so many people.
  I share the pleasure of my hon. Friend the Minister at the reduction in the number of road casualties, but I would ask him— with respect for what he has done in this regard —if we could proclaim it a little less often. Circumstances in one country are so different from those in another, and it is a simple fact that 5,000 deaths a year are far too many. Perhaps if we increase the rate of congestion and reduce the speed of cars still further—I believe that the average in London is now 11 mph—we would reduce the number of road casualties even further. But the number of casualties

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  is terrifyingly high, and I fear that we are tempting fate if we proclaim too often that we are better than other countries.
  Why do I feel that today's debate is so unsatisfactory? Many motorists who break the law are often guilty of criminal behaviour—criminal in the fullest sense of the word. In many cases they should receive prison sentences for their crimes. Sometimes they do, but perhaps not often enough. Many others, however, are perfectly decent, ordinary citizens who are guilty of one error of judgment, or sometimes of technical errors.
  Because there is such a range of difference between these people, I believe that we must always leave it to the magistrate to make the final judgment about whether they should receive a very severe or a very minor penalty. There is a difference between the technical and the criminal offence. That is where I disagree with the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Lloyd), particularly in regard to driving without insurance. It is a very serious offence, and in some cases a sentence of imprisonment may be appropriate, but in others it may be a technical matter. That is why I worry about the proposals that we are debating.
  Mr. Tony Lloyd: Will the hon. Gentleman nevertheless accept that even in the most technical offences the absence of insurance can have dramatic consequences for the victims of accidents, for instance?
  Mr. Moate: I agree. We do not regard it as a serious enough offence. In some circumstances it should be treated very seriously, but please let us leave it to the magistrates to judge when such an offence is a technical one and when it merits further penalties. The maximum penalty is not enough, but we ought not to apply strict minimum penalties, as is done throughout the order, for a range of offences which sometimes are only technical.
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Moate: No. I should like to make my general point. I do not intend to speak for very long.
  The North report is tremendously important, but we have not debated it. The Government announced in July what they intended to do, and organisations were invited to comment by the end of September. A number of hon. Members have gleaned information about it, but only a very small number of hon. Members are here. We have picked up information from whatever sources are available to us. That is a most unsatisfactory way in which to debate very important matters. I am not attacking my hon. Friend the Minister. I know that he is passionately concerned about these matters. We must not, however, be cavalier or superficial, which we are becoming, simply because there is a large Government majority, with orders of this kind being carried almost automatically. We must not take the parliamentary procedure for granted. In this case we are in danger of doing so.
  I feel very strongly about this issue. The penalties that we are allowed to impose are in many cases not severe enough. I fear that the order will provide an excuse for inaction rather than for action over road penalties. I am particularly concerned about the maximum penalties that magistrates can impose if people drive while disqualified—people whose activities are near-criminal, because they go on the road time and time again, although they have already been proved to be a menace to other road users.
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  The same applies to people who drive time and time again without insurance. The magistrates do not have the power to impose sufficiently harsh penalties.
  This minor order, which is defective in many ways, has been introduced late at night, without very much notice, and the House is taking very little notice of it. I do not believe that that is the way to deal with serious matters of this kind.
  That is my general complaint. My specific observations are these. I should have liked the order to retain lower minimum penalties. I do not object to the higher maximum penalties. To drive while uninsured or while disqualified, and also careless driving and failing to stop after an accident, can be technical offences. In those cases, magistrates ought to have the power to take account of the circumstances and impose a lower penalty. If the minimum penalty imposed in such cases is so high, it might result, if another not very serious motoring offence is involved, in the disqualification of a driver who ought not to be disqualified.
  It is all out of balance. Often we penalise, I shall not say the innocent, because nobody on the road is innocent; we are in charge of motor cars that can be dangerous. We cannot plead innocence or ignorance if we infringe the law. However, we often penalise disproportionately the decent citizen compared with the way in which we deal with the near-criminal person who disregards the law, takes his vehicle on the road and endangers other people's lives carelessly, frequently and time after time. The subject is worthy of much more debate. The order does not arouse my admiration.
  11.28 pm
  Mr. Matthew Taylor: I welcome this attempt to distinguish between minor traffic offences and serious traffic crimes, in particular when unsafe and dangerous driving is involved. I am pleased that the legislation increases the penalties for careless driving—a charge that in practice is often laid because of the difficulty of identifying bad driving as reckless driving. It has often proved to be difficult clearly to define reckless driving, which warrants the imposition of stricter penalties than are imposed for genuinely careless driving.
  Careless driving covers a variety of driving offences. If we provide a wider range of penalties, covering anything from leaving a junction without paying due care and attention to hitting a stationary vehicle, we are giving the courts flexibility to distinguish between different offences.
  I take this opportunity briefly to raise an issue arising from an incident in my constituency. A Ministry of Defence lorry drove into a car carrying some of my constituents. The car had stopped at a junction and the traffic lights had been red for some time. My constituents tell me that they were told that the police no longer took action in such cases. That seems extraordinary. It is to be hoped that the order will go some way towards correcting the position. I am raising the matter in the meantime, and I hope that the Minister will feel able to comment on that general point. He is indicating that he will not, which is understandable, but I hope that we shall be able to get to the root of the matter, as it gives cause for considerable concern. In the case to which I referred, serious whiplash injuries were suffered, as well as major damage to the car, and it seems extraordinary that no action should have been taken.

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  I have some reservations about the minimum penalty for failing to report an accident, which is being increased from four to eight points. I understand why some hon. Members say that it is a serious offence in many cases, but I agree with the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) that that is not always so. It seems a somewhat questionable move to set the minimum level at eight points, given that the penalty for drunken driving is 10 points.
  I feel very strongly about the penalties for lack of insurance. If we are to attach high penalty points to that offence—as I believe we should—we must be sure that people are made aware of the technical breaches that exist so that they can avoid them. Many people with "any driver" insurance assume that that term means what it says. In practice, they are usually not insured for under-25s or for people with a record of accidents.
  I have spoken to insurance brokers and to members of the general public. The general public are often not aware of the problem, whereas many insurance brokers seem to regard it as neither here nor there. It is just one of those things, and people do not pay much attention to it. Even those brokers who mention it to drivers they are insuring do not really expect them to remember it. Is there anything that the Government can do to draw people's attention to the potential seriousness of not being properly insured? Even if someone is not directly responsible for an accident and no careless driving has been involved, his lack of insurance can have very serious consequences for those whom he injures.
  I support those hon. Members who have complained about the consultation process. It is not acceptable for the Government to say that responses have to be in by September and then make the announcement in July. There may be general support for what the Government seek to do in this measure. We would certainly all support the objective of reducing accidents and ensuring that people are properly compensated when their vehicles are damaged or when they are injured. However, that is no reason for the Government to announce a consultation period and then to short-circuit it.
  Mr. Peter Bottomley: In precisely what way are the Government or the North committee supposed to have been deficient in the consultation process?
  Mr. Taylor: I shall give the Minister a straightforward example. The RAC understood that its response had to be submitted by September—
  Mr. Bottomley: There may be a lot of reliance on the RAC, and I pay tribute to it in many respects, but it will have seen the Secretary of State's press notice of 26 July, which talks about what is accepted in principle, what conclusions are accepted where views are sought, and states:
  "Regulations will be amended"
  which is shorthand for saying proposed to Parliament—
  "in the autumn to change the penalty points awarded for the offences of driving without insurance; failure to stop after an accident; and for careless driving."
  It then gave the proposed new ranges. It was about as specific a statement of Government intentions as is possible. It was made in July. It seems to me that, given the great interest in the House and outside in having the North
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  committee's report and the Government's response brought forward, the one thing of which we cannot seriously be accused is lack of consultation. In anticipation of winding up the debate, may I say that paragraph 1.8 is the North committee talking about its own consultation.
  Mr. Taylor: What the Minister has said is of some interest to hon. Members. We shall see what the response is. It would have been helpful to organisations if they had known that the Government intended to bring forward their basic response. If the Minister is saying that there is still time for the fine tuning of consultation, perhaps organisations could have been told, or perhaps there might have been a separate procedure.
  I hope that the Government will learn from these criticisms and will not repeat the exercise. Nevertheless, I think that there is general support for what the Government are trying to do, and I hope that the order will be approved.
  11.36 pm
  Mr. Peter Fry: I declare my non-financial interest as a member of the RAC public policy committee, which examines proposals for legislation and comments on them. There has already been much discussion of the briefing that the RAC has sent out.
  The RAC is as committed as the Minister—I can give it no higher praise—to road safety. It strongly believes that people who flagrantly disobey the law should attract the highest penalty. What the RAC and I, as a motorist, object to is not the increase in penalties at the top, but the lack of flexibility. It is not good enough to say "If it is a technical offence the case will not be proceeded with." The law is the law. I fear that some policemen are slightly overzealous and might push prosecutions which others would not.
  The danger associated with imposing higher penalties is that treatment could be very unequal as between different parts of the country. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister wants to avoid that. The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) said that an "any driver" certificate would not cover any driver under age 25. I do not think that that is quite correct, but the small print, which the driver or owner often does not read, can make a tremendous difference to the cover. In such circumstances, there can be much innocent breaking of the law, or at least unintentional breaking of the law. That is to say nothing of cover notes that do not arrive, cover notes that are incorrectly written, postal strikes and other factors.
  Mr. Bottomley: It would be helpful, in view of my hon. Friend's experience, if he could say in what circumstances there is no insurance cover. If the cover note has not arrived but the insurance has been accepted by the insurance company, a person is insured although he does not have a cover note.
  Mr. Fry: A cover note is not necessarily evidence of insurance. Some insurance brokers on the point of leaving their businesses issue cover notes like confetti and never pass them on to the insurance company, with the result that there is no cover. I assure my hon. Friend that in a whole range of cases the person who, technically, has broken the law is the innocent party because of the negligence of a third party who may be issuing the insurance.

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  Another example is that most insurance certificates allow someone to drive any car that is in the possession of the policy holder. There are occasions when, at the end of the year, or when the car is changed, the insurance company insists on a specified registration number, or may suggest limited terms. If the insured does not have the proper document at that time, I understand that there is a risk that a fairly high penalty point can be imposed against him. As has already been said, two comparatively minor offences can lead to a driver automatically losing his or her licence.
  As for not reporting an accident, we all want the motorist who does not report an accident because he has had too much to drink, or because he has caused injury and is afraid of the consequences, to face the most severe penalty. However, I can give my hon. Friend an example that happens nearly every day. Many cars have offside mirrors, and when two cars are travelling down a narrow road their offside mirrors may touch. Technically, by not reporting that those mirrors touched, the drivers could be accused of not stopping and not reporting an accident. In that extreme circumstance, I do not think that many cases would go to court, but it illustrates that there is a vast difference between technically breaking the law and an accident in which someone has been run down and left by the side of the road and the motorist has driven away with no intention of reporting the accident.
  I believe that my hon. Friend is guilty of not giving magistrates the necessary flexibility. I ask him to think again, particularly about the lower limits on driving without insurance and failing to stop after an accident.
  It is very rare that the two Houses of Parliament debate the same subject. In the debate in the other place earlier tonight, not one speaker approved of the order. We want many of the recommendations of the North report to come into effect, but I agree that we should first have a major debate on the issue. If we do not have that debate, there will be the feeling that some people will be penalised because, late at night, a handful of us allowed this order to go through. Would it not be wiser for my hon. Friend to withdraw the order tonight, to complete the consultation period, to have a full parliamentary discussion and then to come forward with his proposals in toto in the spring? I suspect that then nearly everyone who is criticising him tonight will be with him in the Lobby.
  11.43 pm
  Mr. Gary Waller: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Fry), I regret very much that my hon. Friend the Minister has brought the order before the House tonight, in this form and with so little notice. It it extremely unsatisfactory.
  I understand that the order has been brought forward now because a consolidation of the road traffic law is taking place. No doubt my hon. Friend is anxious that that consolidation should include the revised number of points for different offences so that the law is not immediately out of date. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Consolidation, &c. Bills, so I understand that there are reasons for wanting to tidy up the law in a sensible fashion, but quite frankly that is not sufficient reason for overriding the views of many parties who have an interest in the matter and for bringing forward an order without adequate consultation.
  784
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough spoke about the RAC. It is unsatisfactory that an announcement should be made about a change in the law when the consultation period is in mid-stream.
  The Magistrates Association is different from meetings of individual magistrates, because it brings together the views of magistrates as a whole. It has not yet met to consider its formal response to the North report, but it has submitted a draft response. I understand that the meeting to consider and confirm its response will take place on Thursday. Even so, many changes to the recommendations of the North report are implemented in the order. Is my hon. Friend aware that the Magistrates Association, in its draft response, has said that the present minimum of five points for failure to stop is too high and should be reduced? Is that not something that we should debate properly? Surely we should consider the association's views before we implement the law. It is the magistrates who will have the job of ensuring that the law is administered.
  Mr. Tony Lloyd: I disagree with the view that the low limit should be even lower, but the hon. Gentleman is right in saying that that matter should be properly debated by the House. When we take into account the fact that the order will not come into force until March next year, there can be no argument against the fact that the laying of the order could have been delayed until the consultations for which the hon. Gentleman and I are arguing have taken place.
  Mr. Waller: The hon. Gentleman is right. The only reason for bringing it forward now is to include the points tariff in the consolidated law, and that is not a sufficiently good reason.
  It might be helpful to go back to 1981, when my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) and I were on the Standing Committee that considered the original tariff and penalty points proposals. It is interesting to note that when the Government initially brought forward their plans relating to failure to stop there was a single six-point system. We debated that for a full morning in Committee. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) went away after the debate and supported the views that had been expressed in Committee. He came back, after giving the matter considerable thought and having consulted widely, and introduced the range of five to nine points for that offence. It was not something that somebody thought of off the top of his head. It was carefully considered.
  On page 172, in paragraph 16.23, the North report refers to the failure to stop. The committee concluded:
  "Of course prosecution discretion would filter out many minor cases".
  That is quite right. However, other cases would not be filtered out by discretion. Is my hon. Friend the Minister saying that there should be no mid-point between a caution and eight points? Offences do not happen like that. Many different types of offence are involved in a failure to stop. The idea that one can distinguish clearly between those which should have a caution and those which should have eight points is nonsense. Further thought should be given to that.
  When the Standing Committee considered that matter on 19 March 1981, it was not argued that we should be more lenient. One of the reasons why we argued the point so fervently was that we believed that some cases should

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  have more than six points. It is interesting that, when one looks back at the points that one made, one still agrees with them. I said:
  "However, in this case of failing to stop after an accident, it seems to me that the variation between the most minor type of offence of this nature and the most serious is enormous. That is why I propose that a considerable amount of discretion should be left to the courts. In fact, I propose that there should be a minimum of two points and a maximum of ten."
  The Committee debated various options and there was a vote on a range of four to eight points, on which the Committee divided equally. There was strong feeling that a considerable range of options should be considered.
  I continued:
  "In the event that someone drives into a bus queue, knowing full well that he or she has had far too much drink and that there is no possible way that he or she could pass a test for the presence of drugs or alcohol, that person has a considerable incentive to get away as quickly as possible. Surely we need a penalty which takes account of that sort of incentive. In other words, I think that ten points is not too high a penalty for such an offence and that the six points specified in the Bill is too few to deter someone who wishes to make such a getaway."
  I later referred to the more minor type of offence and said:
  "I argue that there is variation in the range of accidents and that an accident in which a driver knocked people down and then drives off to escape the consequences is considerably more serious than many other incidents of failure to stop."
  Many hon. Members referred to cases of failure to stop. The late Martin Stevens, who was a magistrate, said:
  "there is hardly a motoring offence that comes before the courts where the degree of gravity varies more widely than the offence of failure to stop. It can be a purely technical offence." This is the offence for which my hon. Friend the Minister proposes that there should be a range of only two points. Martin Stevens' words are worth recalling. He said:
  "It is not unknown for motorists to suppose that they have reported the offence whereas, in reality—because no proper note was taken or they did not give their name and address in the proper form, or because of a technical deficiency either in the way in which they made their statement or in the way in which it was recorded—what they thought they had done does not amount to reporting. They therefore find themselves, to their surprise, accused of failure to report.
  That is the type of case—there are many—where a magistrate would give a defendant an absolute discharge, where there is no guilty mind and the defendant is possibly the victim of someone else's error."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 19 March 1981; c. 1144–48.]
  In such a case, someone could be charged with failure to stop.
  I should like to refer to a case that has been brought to my attention recently. A lady was driving off a motorway slip road and as she stopped at a roundabout she felt a tap at the rear of her car. She realised that the following car, whose driver had failed to pay attention to vehicles approaching from the right of the roundabout, had moved and slightly struck the rear of her car. Because she thought that no damage had been done and the roundabout was a dangerous place to stop—the accident clearly was not her fault—she drove off. The incident was witnessed by the police, who stopped her and warned her. Although it was not her fault—she had not thought it a good place to stop —she was told that she would be reported with a view to action being taken against her for failing to stop and report an accident. I do not know the outcome of the case, as no decision has yet been made. It is a case where an
  786
  innocent party, who made an error of judgment in not stopping as soon as she could, may find that she has eight penalty points on her licence.
  There are many minor offences of that kind, and if one doubts that one should look at the table of offences in Scotland, which is included in the North report. In 45 cases in 1986, only a fine of up to £5 was imposed. In a further 228 cases, a fine of up to £10 was imposed. Should not the points tariff bear some relationship to the fine and the way in which the magistrates have assessed the case but found a technical offence? It must. It is nonsense to rely on discretion not to bring a charge. Often there will be such a charge.
  There has been inadequate consultation on this matter and magistrates feel that this is unsatisfactory. If my hon. Friend the Minister presses ahead with the order, if will be passed. There are many hon. Members who have not heard the debate, but who could, if necessary, be called upon to support the order. If my hon. Friend withdraws the order, he will get great support from people throughout the country who will recognise that he has been willing to listen, that he wants to consult properly and that he intends to introduce another order soon, after it has been properly considered and debated, so that the House can give its view. If my hon. Friend does not do that, I am afraid that his reputation, as one who is concerned to change the law so that it reduces casualties, will be damaged. People will feel that we have not got off to a good start in passing the order
  11.55 pm
  Mr. Humfrey Malins: I share my hon. Friend's concern about discretion. The offences of failure to stop and exchange particulars and of failure to report can be extremely serious. In the worst examples, disqualification and imprisonment may be appropriate. I am worried that, by passing the order, we will put the fairly innocent offender in the same camp as the very guilty.
  First, I shall give an example of failure to stop and exchange particulars. A man and his wife park their car in the high street. The man reverses the car gently and it bumps the car behind him. He says to his wife, "Will you give the people the particulars? I have to nip into the bank." The wife stays to exchange particulars and the man goes off to do his business. He is guilty of failure to stop and exchange particulars. There can be no doubt about that. He stands to get eight points, and we may think that that is wrong.
  Secondly, I shall give an example of failure to report. A man driving home along a country lane after work skids going round a corner. His vehicle comes slightly off the road and hits a five-bar gate, causing it slight damage. He waits for a few minutes. No one is around, so he goes home. The next day, at lunchtime, he rings his police station and says, "By the way, I bumped a gate yesterday. No one was hurt." He is guilty of failure to report because the obligation is to report as soon as reasonably practicable. If he can report the incident in the evening when he gets home or at breakfast time, he must do so. If he reports the next day at lunchtime, he is guilty of failure to report. No other car or people were involved, only a fence. Do we want to put such a man in the same camp as the very guilty? If the order is passed, he, too, will get eight penalty points.

  787
  In those two examples, without doubt the offences of failure to stop and exchange particulars and of failure to report have been committed. It is not good enough to say that the police will exercise their discretion and not prosecute, because those are two reported cases where they have prosecuted. We must ensure that magistrates have the discretion to say, "This is a technical offence and we shall deal with it leniently," or, "This is a terrible offence and we shall deal with it harshly." The problem is that we are imposing a harsh penalty on the relatively innocent. That is unfair.
  11.59 pm
  Mr. Den Dover: Given the number of hon. Members who, to a man, have spoken against the order, it is clear that my hon. Friend the Minister should withdraw it. I appreciate that he wanted to let the traffic world know his and the Department's views and I therefore applaud to some extent his announcement in July, but I must question why just a few offences have been pulled out from the whole array of motoring offences. Surely the whole matter should be considered at length and in detail as it was in 1981. Only then can one balance and counterbalance the various ranges of penalty points against one another and provide heavy or light weighting for appropriate offences.
  I sincerely hope that my hon. Friend has the authority to withdraw the order today as it is clear that wider consultation would be of benefit in deciding on the allocation of points to the various offences. There is a great deal of grievance on both sides of the House about this, and I very much hope that the order will be withdrawn.
  12 midnight
  Mr. Conal Gregory: At this hour I shall detain the House for no more than a few moments. There has clearly been a lack of opportunity to debate the road traffic law review report, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will give us that opportunity at an early time.
  There is certainly a need for wide publicity of penalties. In this context, I commend to my hon. Friend the possibility of sending out a list with the annual registration renewal form. In this debate, I shall deal briefly with just two or three examples.
  Reference has been made to careless driving. Nine points for that offence would surely be draconian—just one point less than for reckless driving, although the whole House recognises the difference between the two offences.
  For failure to stop after or report an accident, an automatic move to eight to 10 points will restrict magistrates' choice. We have heard examples of trivial and technical offences which come into this category, so a scale of two to 10 points would be more appropriate. Here I make not just a constituency point but a personal point. If one takes the trouble to report an accident —one may be involved in an accident with a third party—the police should be encouraged to keep one aware of what is taking place. Having done my public duty after a number of constituency engagements and reported a hit-and-run or other such incident to the North Yorkshire police, I have then not been informed at all of what subsequently took place. I have been delighted to hear of their vigilance and of the fact that prosecutions have been brought, but had I not persisted in asking I should still be in the dark.
  Finally, on the subject of driving without insurance, will my hon. Friend the Minister have discussions with his
  788
  right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that we move to the system used in some countries whereby a valid insurance sticker must be displayed? If the insurance is cancelled, the relevant sticker is removed and returned to the insurance company. In that way, the public can tell at a glance from the relevant colour whether the vehicle is insured and whether the insurance is up to date.
  I believe that the order is rather too hasty and has not been well considered by the Department. The wider scale of penalties that we should all like to see, not just on behalf of motorists but on behalf of those who enforce the law, is not available. I therefore urge my hon. Friend the Minister, whom I hold in very high regard in respect of road traffic matters, to heed what has been said today and to consider all those factors.
  12.4 am
  Mr. Roger King: I shall be brief because my hon. Friends have covered most of what I had intended to say. I am not yet convinced that there has been full consultation. It is strange to say that there will be consultation and then to introduce amendments to the four major items on which most people would want the opportunity to comment. I should be grateful if my hon. Friend the Minister could tell us about the attitude of the police to the recommendations that he has put before the House tonight.
  One snag is that, if the goalposts are moved on the four important offences, what will happen with the linkage with all the other traffic offences such as speeding and so on? Without considering them all as a whole, there is a danger of going over the top with some and going light on others when the time comes to consider them all.
  The most important consultation must surely be with this House. We could certainly have assisted in the debate on the vital issue of traffic safety. That concerns everyone, not only drivers, because we all have some connection with the roads. We could have put our views on whether to accept parts of the North report.
  I agree with my hon. Friends about the question of failure to report an accident. On many occasions innocence could cause the unreporting of an accident. A bump at Hyde Park corner may, with a shrug of the shoulders and a certain gesture, make one party think that there is no damage. He might drive off and not report the accident, but subsequently the other party might report it and he is then guilty of a high penalty offence. A level of eight to 10 penalty points is too high, and perhaps a return to a lower minimum of four points would be better.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Fry) gave examples of the conflict that could occur with uninsured driving in quite innocent circumstances. With a six to eight range of penalty points, there is not sufficient distinction between the car thief, the joy riders and those who wilfully ignore the law and the old lady or gentleman whose memory has lapsed and has committed a technical offence. They may be guilty of driving while uninsured, but there is a great difference between their offence and that of the car thief or joy rider.
  Ideally, my hon. Friend should postpone this order to a later date, but I do not think that he will do so. I hope that he will comment in some detail on the points that have been raised tonight.
  12.8 am
  Mr. Peter Bottomley: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.] I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Lloyd) would want me to repeat his remark. It is, perhaps, an echo of what some of my hon. Friends have said.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) offered a friendly caution against telling the truth about the reduction in road casualties. I am not in any way complacent about the cut in the number of casualties. I simply believe that there would not have been the significant reductions last year and, to some extent, this year without a large number of people modifying their behaviour.
  There has been no change in the law on sentencing or in enforcement during the past two years, yet there has been a continued reduction in road casualties even though the mileage driven has risen. It has been almost across the board, with the exception of child pedestrians. Motor cycle rates have reduced faster than the drop in motor cycling itself and the car casualty rate has also reduced. Much of that has happened because we no longer put the burden solely on the police and the courts. Most people are now trying to drive better more often because they realise that that is important for themselves and that it is their duty as road users.
  I do not want anything in this debate, which is about penalties available to the courts, to take anything away from us all realising that, if we were to drive from here to Birmingham, most of us would commit enough offences to lose our licences, even under the existing penalty point system.
  Mr. Roger King: Speak for yourself.
  Mr. Bottomley: I do speak for myself.
  Because it goes with the job, I was asked to take the Institute of Advanced Motorists test and the RoSPA advanced driver test. I told them both that they would get more publicity if they failed me, but they still said that I had passed. I am aware that I am by no means perfect in my driving. I try to improve. We shall all realise that we make mistakes. As my hon. Friends have said, driving is one of the few areas where carelessness can be a criminal offence, and we should be aware of that. It is one of the major themes running through the North report. The House will join me in paying another tribute to the committee members who went out to consultation.
  Two groups of hon. Members have spoken in the debate. Contributions have come from my hon. Friends the Members for Faversham and for Keighley (Mr. Waller). Other hon. Members may also have been involved in the 1981 legislation, which went from totting up three equal offences to losing one's licence, to the points system that has generally been welcomed.
  There is a range of views. I was asked for the police view. The police and others put forward the view that, especially with a failure to stop offence, if one is in a large vehicle and is not aware that one has been involved in touching someone else's vehicle or having an accident, it would be unfair to have major penalties. As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Malins) said, if one is unaware that that has happened, one is almost certain not to have committed the offence of
  790
  failing to stop after an accident. One must have knowledge of the crash, collision or scrape to be successfully charged and convicted.
  Mr. Fry: How does one prove it?
  Mr. Bottomley: I do not have the answer to how one proves most things in court.
  I emphasise that a certain voice has not been heard in the debate. I do not criticise hon. Members for that. Last Saturday, the annual general meeting of the Campaign Against Drinking and Driving was held. People met, and the only thing that they had in common was that a member of their family had been killed by a drinking driver. Many of those families had to bear a court prosecution for careless driving in which the fact of death was not even reported, because it was not apparently the intention that anyone should have been killed. Often, when someone is convicted and sentenced, people start to discover the full circumstances. Many people in Britain feel a grievance that the person who was involved in the crash or collision that affected them had been under-charged.
  I refer hon. Members to chapters 16 and 17 of the North committee's recommendations. They were not fully summarised in some of the representations that were put to some hon. Members. If I singled out the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor), it is not because I want to pick on him, but when he was going on about this matter I realised that he had perhaps not had a full opportunity of reading chapters 16 and 17.
  Paragraph 16.24 of the report states:
  "We recommend that failure to stop after or to report an accident should carry 10 penalty points in all cases, and that the Magistrates Association should review its guidance on the use of disqualification for these offences with a view to securing an increase in the use of disqualification."
  It continues:
  "The appropriate bodies in Scotland should consider issuing guidance."
  More argument appears before the statement, but the beginning of paragraph 16.24 states:
  "The Magistrates Association's 'suggestions for traffic offences penalties' already advise magistrates to consider disqualification where both failure to stop and failure to report are present."
  A motorway case was put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley. I thank him for letting me see details of it in advance. That case emphasises that the duty to stop when people know that there has been an accident is important. It protects the innocent, provides a reminder to those who may have been at fault—obviously, it is difficult to tell in advance who is at fault—and provides a basic protection. It is important that those who are involved in bumps should stop. There is the example of two wing mirrors touching each other, and one motorist stops but the other does not. The motorist who stops has a defence if he is subsequently charged with failing to stop after an accident.
  Mr. Waller: Of course a person in that situation should stop, but is a misjudgment of that kind really on a par with being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle? It carries a penalty of 10 points, which is only two more than the minimum that might be imposed for failing to stop in the most superficially minor case.
  Mr. Bottomley: That argument is advanced on the assumption that motorists are failing to stop after minor accidents and that the Crown Prosecution Service is taking

  791
  them to court. Points by themselves mean little. It is when they add up to 12 that disqualification takes place. The magistrates then have to decide what period of disqualification should apply, and, as I understand it, disqualification can range from one day to an extremely long period. We must take these issues together.
  Mr. Malins: I mentioned two examples of offences that would be at the bottom end of cases of failure to stop and exchange particulars—we must not forget about the failure to exchange particulars. Are such offences not so wholly different from offences at the top end of the scale that a substantially different points penalty should be made available?
  Mr. Bottomley: We need to—
  Mr. Roger King: Just say yes.
  Mr. Bottomley: If there is a growing number of cases of failure to stop, and if it is in general the intention of failing to stop that leads to the charge, followed by conviction and the penalty, we are on firmer ground. I expected to be criticised for watering down the North committee recommendations, which was for a flat 10 points. In the 1981 debate, it was the intervention of Conservative Back Benchers that led both to a minor lowering and a significant increasing of what the Government were then proposing.
  I want to divorce the four offences and the penalties that are applicable to them from the major consideration of the North committee's recommendations. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made plain in July, there is a difference of treatment. Perhaps we could rightly be accused of complacency, although I recognise that we have not been this evening, if we had left these recommendations so that they could come with the fuller response in January. I was asked when the response will come. The Government plan to bring it forward in January.
  My hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Gregory) talked about the importance of publicity on penalties. We shall consider how we can both publish the penalties and the reason why the offences are offences. We should not talk merely of what will happen if I offend, for example. We must talk also of why it is important that drivers should stop after an accident and carry insurance. It is important that we should publicise the extent of careless or inconsiderate driving. It has been said that the one point difference between the maximum points penalty for careless driving and the penalty for reckless driving seems small. In practice, the CPS has to decide whether to bring a charge of careless or reckless driving and we need to see a significant overlap.
  Mr. Iain Mills: I have not spoken in the debate, but I do not understand the timing of the order. Has my hon. Friend consulted representative bodies in Scotland, for example? I would accept that that might be an irrelevant issue this evening. Why is my hon. Friend bringing the order forward so quickly, given the remarks that he has made recently and the comments of some of my hon. Friends? What is the rush?
  Mr. Bottomley: In July, the Government explained in a parliamentary answer and in a press notice that we wanted to take action on the recommended adjusting of penalty points by lifting the maxima and some of the minima. That is a plain way of putting it.
  792
  I meet the RAC frequently, and normally without disagreement. Even when we disagree, it may be advancing a point of view to which we need to pay attention, which we do. I meet also the representatives of various motoring interests. There are few who get around the country as often as I do to meet these interests, whether it is the police, the magistrates or motorists. I have had few representations on this proposal, with the exception of that presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Waller), either inside or outside the House.
  It is important to continue reiterating that this is a specific example of change following the North report. The committee began sitting before I took over the job of Under-Secretary of State, which was at least two and a half years ago. There is one point that I want to make plain to the House. This is the only proposed change that we intend to bring to the House before the Government have responded to the North report early next year.
  Mr. Waller: As a matter of record, will my hon. Friend confirm that in the press notice in July, although notice was given of the intention to change the tariff for three penalties, there was no mention of failure to report? The three included failure to stop, but failure to report was not included and no notice was given of that until the order appeared.
  Mr. Bottomley: My hon. Friend is correct about the early part and it would take me a little time to read through the subsequent pages. However, in paragraph 16.24 the North committee takes the two together.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West referred to the example of someone who goes into a bank and the person who interferes with a five-bar gate. One can find examples of apparent triviality in all cases. If a motorist believes that it is appropriate to report the five-bar gate incident, that should be done as soon as possible. That was the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West. I find it difficult to believe that a magistrates court would apply a significant penalty if the five-bar gate incident took someone up to or above the 12 points. The period of disqualification is not mandatory and that is where the magistrates maintain their discretion. There is a fair amount of discretion within the system.
  It is perhaps wise for me to realise that the interest expressed by hon. Members on both sides of the House for consideration in depth should be reported to my right hon. Friends who manage the affairs of the House. Obviously I cannot say if and when there will be a major debate on road casualty reduction or about the law on road traffic offences to which the North committee addressed itself.
  There is unanimity in the House over the fact that the law has a part to play in getting more of us to drive better more often. I repeat a basic theme of the North report: many examples of carelessness can lead to a criminal offence being committed. The North committee does not expect the police to arrest people for all the examples. Some big issues must be considered later as the North report is examined. There are proposals for determining a charge by the consequences rather than by the intent. Many of our legal friends will have a fair degree of interest in that.
  Most of the reaction to the North committee recognises the committee's approach. It is obviously difficult for many people outside the House or outside the area of road

  793
  casualty reduction to read the whole report because it is rather longer than most. However, that is a reflection of the effective way in which Dr. North and his colleagues went through the issues. It was one of the most open procedures that any committee has gone through since the Beveridge report. A combination of outsiders and public officials sat on the committee and the report has been public since April this year. The order represents one part of the report which, on reflection, the House will recognise did not have to wait for a fuller response on some of the other issues.
  There is provision in the Road Traffic Act 1981 for modifications to be made to the range of penalties. As my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley rightly said, road traffic legislation is being consolidated, but that is not the overwhelming reason for having this debate. It fits in with the Government's response made in July when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that this was one area in which the Government proposed to take action in advance of the further consultation on many of the other specified issues set out in the written answer of 26 July.
  I am probably the Minister who least relies on changes in the law to bring about better results. There are times when it is necessary to propose changes to the law. In general, I ask those who still feel strongly about these issues to reread and reconsider the arguments and facts that the North report advances and to recognise that those involved had the benefit of wide consultation on two occasions. I hope that the House will pass the order.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the draft Penalty Points (Alteration) Order 1988, which was laid before this House on 21st October 1988, be approved.

  Textile and Clothing Industry
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Kenneth Carlisle.]
  12.25 am
  Mrs. Alice Mahon: I applied for this debate to highlight the increasing danger of a major upheaval in the textile and clothing industry. It is my belief that unless the Government act now to halt the present uncertainty and allow the industry to plan and invest in the future, thousands of jobs, right across the industry, could go. My message tonight to the Minister and to the Government is clear and unequivocal: they must act now and seriously to address the problems facing the industry. In the short time that I have available to me tonight, I shall attempt to highlight those problems.
  First, I emphasise that the textile and clothing industry is vital to our economy. It is not, as some would have it, a sunset industry. In the United Kingdom, it employs more than half a million people—10 per cent. of the total work force. Its contribution to the national economy is greater than that of the car industry, and three times greater than office machinery and data processing. There is strong regional dependence on the industry, which is concentrated in areas where unemployment and poverty rank high: 30 per cent. in Northern Ireland, 22 per cent. in the east midlands, and 17 per cent, in my own area of west Yorkshire.
  The textile industry went into rapid decline in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and there is deep concern that it could witness a rerun of the situation in 1980–82, when more than 300,000 jobs were lost. Those parts of the industry that survived became much more capital-intensive and automated, and some survived more intact than others. Woollen and worsted, for example, has increased output by 80 per cent. per head, and exports account for 60 per cent., of output. That part of the industry is least affected by imports, but it still finds itself vulnerable and threatened for other reasons. I hope that the Minister accepts that the industry has fought back. Workers in the industry, never noted for their militancy, have become even more flexible—in fact, wages remain very low—and, because of the Government's mishandling of the economy, they are once again threatened by redundancy.
  High interest rates are particularly damaging to the industry as they push up the value of sterling and add immediately to costs. Fluctuating exchange rates and the high prices of our exports when the pound is strong create a disinclination to invest and prevent any serious forward planning. Present sterling levels make imports cheaper and our exports more expensive. I am sure that the Minister will not argue against that.
  Inflation is also causing concern. High energy and water prices have an effect on costs, and the high cost of water after privatisation has been drawn to my attention by woollen manufacturers, who use large quantities of water in their processes. Other factors, including EEC changes, are adding to the problems. The existing multi-fibre arrangement will end in 1991, and any new MFA is likely to have a quota set for the EEC as a whole. The free market that will exist in the EEC after 1992 means that the entire quota for a particular product could be targeted at just one country. Already within the EEC there is concern that some Governments are finding ways of

  795
  subsidising textiles, despite rules against doing so. Not so in the United Kingdom, unfortunately, where present policies seem to be positively harming the industry.
  Such concern is not felt just on these Benches. I draw the Minister's attention to the parliamentary question asked by the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Riddick) on 26 October. The hon. Gentleman asked for
  "the latest position regarding the French Government's allegedly illegal subsidy to Filature du Hainault to manufacture polypropylene filaments."
  The Minister for Trade replied:
  "The EC Commission announced on 27 July that it had approved the French Government's proposed aid to Filature du Hainault and that that aid did not conflict with the objectives of the Community's synthetic fibres discipline."
  The Minister went on to sympathise with the hon. Member for Colne Valley, saying:
  "I have told my hon. Friend that I share his anxiety and doubts about this."—[Official Report, 26 October 1988; Vol.139, c. 293–94.]
  There have been other instances, of which I am sure the Department is aware, in France and Italy, and I have other suspicions of subsidies. Within the EC exports in relation to imports fell dramatically between 1978 and 1985. In United Kingdom trade with West Germany, for instance, United Kingdom exports as a percentage of imports fell from 65 per cent. to 29 per cent. In trade with France there was a fall from 73 per cent. to 46 per cent., and the fall in the Netherlands was from 96 per cent. to 40 per cent. In the EC as a whole, the fall was from 65 per cent. to 37 per cent.
  I believe that the implementation of the single market will make matters worse, particularly for constituencies such as mine where there is still a heavy reliance on manufacturing. Market forces will inevitably relocate activity to more favoured parts well away from centres such as Halifax and west Yorkshire. All of us are worried by recent events in Halifax, where one of the major reasons cited for the closure of the KP Foods factory was the need to obtain even more profits in the run-up to 1992. A thousand jobs were sacrificed on the altar of the single European market.
  As I said earlier, these economic indicators, coupled with potentially damaging legislation from the United States in the form of the Textile and Trade Apparel Bill —recently vetoed by the President, but hanging over our heads like the sword of Damocles—could, if implemented, increase US protectionism for the next 10 years, forcing many Third-world countries into the European markets. Imports are already damaging those markets, particularly our own. During the first six months of 1988 textile imports increased by 12 per cent. to £3·4 billion, increasing the balance of trade deficit and leading directly to redundancies and mill closures. If there were more time, I would cite some of those closures.
  Almost a third of our balance of trade deficit is in textiles and clothing, and sooner or later the Government will be forced to act on what is a major crisis in trade imbalance. All sides of the industry agree on the problems, and there is a fair measure of agreement on the solutions. Only the Government, with their adherence to the free-market philosophy, seem to be at odds with that agreement. Peter Booth, the national secretary of the Transport and General Workers textile group, recently said:
  "What we have at the moment is a double constraint on British Industry, first of all by the false level of sterling making it impossible to compete fairly and secondly by the punitive interest rates designed to push the pound even higher. In effect
  796
  the Government are garotting British Manufacturing by their myopic economic policies based solely on interest rales. Unless there is a change of course the many improvements in productivity and efficiency in our industry will be swamped by the ever increasing tide of lower priced imports. Tax cuts in June are no use at all to the 1,000 textile workers facing the dole in September."
  Just eight days later Barry Spencer, president of the British Textile Confederation, said:
  "First the recent strengthening of sterling against continental currencies is now making our highly successful export performance more difficult to sustain in Europe. Second, I turn to the associated question of interest rates. The recent series of increases in the base rate adds to uncertainty and is a disincentive to investment, in what is now a highly capital intensive industry. Finally, I want to call attention to the impact of rising textile and clothing imports on the national trading deficit. There is rightly considerable concern about the likely size of the national deficit this year."
  Exchange rate movement has encouraged companies to buy yarn abroad instead of manufacturing it here. Tootal gets much of its yarn from China and two thirds of its employees are overseas, while 55 per cent. of its textile materials are bought outside the United Kingdom. It ships in cloth from India, sends it to Germany for finishing, to Mauritius for stitching and then sells it in the United Kingdom. The trend is very worrying. Marks and Spencer, which traditionally has supported British manufacturing. has recently opened a purchasing office in Hong Kong, joining the shift to far eastern "sourcing".
  Imports of acrylic yarn from Turkey have increased from 600 tonnes to 4,500 tonnes in three years. The 1988 quota is 5,000 tonnes. There is massive exploitation of textile workers in Turkey. The labour laws in that country are repressive and very low wages are paid. State assistance is massive. Huge subsidies are provided for the industry.
  I want the Minister to tell the 5,000 people in my constituency who are still employed in the industry what he intends to do about these unfair practices, because they have been on the receiving end of his Government's lack of concern. In Halifax, wages are well below the national average and there is still a great deal of part-time work. A recent economic survey carried out by the local authority showed that 45 per cent. of the work force is still employed in manufacturing, so what is on offer for them?
  West Yorkshire is ranked the 46th most disadvantaged region after countries such as Northern Ireland and Sicily, but there are no new policy initiatives for the area. In France, however, two textile closure areas, which are ranked 103rd in the same table, have already had a financial input, so what is the Minister prepared to do to redress the imbalance?
  There are many other regional disparities in the EEC. Emphasis is shifting to less well-developed areas and away from declining industrial areas. In the past, Halifax has received help under the non-quota textile area funding. That ends in 1989. My local authority tells me that Calderdale is not included among those parts of west Yorkshire that the Department of Trade and Industry submitted to the European Commission in connection with eligibility under its second objective—reform of the structural funds. I take this opportunity to ask the DTI, through the Minister, to reconsider that decision.
  I understand that the Department has recalculated the published unemployment rates to include the self-employed and that the average rate of employment recorded in Calderdale during the last three years on that basis is 12·35 per cent., compared with the Community average of 12·5 per cent. We failed to qualify by 0·15 per

  797
  cent. If, however, the Department were to take the published unemployment data and did not allow for the self-employed, Calderdale would qualify. In the past, self-employment data have proved to be notoriously unreliable. I ask the Minister to take that point on board.
  Calderdale is the only district in west Yorkshire that is not being put forward in connection with the second objective. Economic activity there is certain to be sucked into surrounding areas, where firms can obtain European regional development fund grants and where local authorities can provide improved infrastructure with that kind of assistance.
  Finally, I must press the Minister for assurances on a number of points. First, will he urge the Government to renogotiate the multi-fibre arrangement and other trading arrangements to allow for fair competition? Will he ask the Government to include a social clause that would make employers in foreign countries, who are exporting to the United Kingdom and other EEC countries, treat their work force humanely?
  Secondly, will he press for Professor Aubrey Silberston, of the Imperial College of Science and Technology, to be replaced as the expert who is due to report on the multi-fibre arrangement and other trading arrangements? The professor is a well-known free marketeer, whose 1984 report recommended phasing out the multi-fibre arrangement. It was widely attacked by all sides of the industry.
  Thirdly, will the Minister take up with the Chancellor of the Exchequer the question of high interest rates and point out that manufacturing and trade are vital to our future prosperity? Trade is all that some of us have by which to earn our living, once the oil runs out and everything has been sold off.
  Fourthly, will he tell the Government that they are destroying the textile industry's ability to plan for the future by their worship of the free market and their mishandling of the economy? I say in all earnestness to the Minister that the free-market philosophy is endangering the livelihoods of my constituents and contemptuously damaging their efforts to restore the local economy. They have been through one trauma and dragged themselves up, with very little help. Halifax, my town, had its assisted area status taken away in the early 1980s.
  The industry has dragged itself up. Parts of it have recovered. We now want the Government to use sensible interventionist policies to ensure fair competition and to make sure that the healthy growth of the textile industry in my constituency continues, rather than allow a return to the position in which the industry found itself in the early 1980s.
  I beg the Government not to persist with their policies. Anyone can see that they are forcing up costs, increasing our export prices and subjecting us to cheap imports.
  Mr. Bob Cryer rose—
  Mr. Max Madden rose—
  Mr. Pat Wall rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Do the three hon. Members representing Bradford constituencies have the consent of the hon. Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) and the Minister to intervene in the debate?
  Mrs. Mahon: Yes.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Eric Forth): Yes.
  12.40 am
  Mr. Bob Cryer $: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) for giving us the opportunity to discuss this serious subject.
  I emphasise the fact that the import of cheap Turkish acrylic fibre yarn has caused at least 600 job losses in the Bradford area, many of them affecting my constituents. Mills have been running on short time and redundancies have resulted. Can the Minister say whether his Department is in a position to require the EEC to take action under the safeguard clause of the treaty with Turkey, especially as the likely increase in Turkish yarn imports is causing grave anxiety to the industry?
  No doubt the Minister will want to refer to the record of the last Labour Government, as most Ministers do, so let me tell him that employment in the West Riding woollen industry was much higher in 1978, when we were in office. I hope that the Minister will aspire to that level of employment and to the improved quality and output that were achieved under the Labour Government.
  I have no time for anything more, other than to endorse the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax that high interest rates are also very damaging. The damage is not clear yet, but it is working its way through and jobs will be lost in the near future.
  12.41 am
  Mr. Pat Wall: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) for introducing the debate. The textile industry represents the sixth largest sector of the British economy, employing 450,000 workers. It is larger than the car industry and had £2 billion more value added in 1985 than the aerospace industry. The British Textile Confederation newsletter of July 1988 said:
  "Continued control of inflation is obviously vital; and the textile industry is not looking for an under-valued currency to make life easy. Far from it. But, particularly with the move towards a Single European Market by 1992, the industry needs to plan ahead with reasonable confidence that its own efforts—in productivity improvement, new equipment, product development, marketing and so on—will not be undermined by changes in competitiveness due to increases in sterling."
  Given that interest rates have doubled in 10 stages and that we have one of the highest rates of inflation in Europe, for textile workers and the textile industry, which has already faced a rise in import penetration from 31·5 to 44·6 per cent. in the period 1980 to 1986, the prospect of 1992 is a nightmare.
  We face a further problem. There is the possibility of the American Government introducing a quota Bill restricting America's imports to a 1 per cent. increase per year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax said, that will not only directly affect British exports to America, but will mean that far eastern and other suppliers will look for markets in Britain.
  The issue of imported acrylic yarn has been brought home to me graphically. I live opposite a mill which, for the past two years, has found good employment for workers. Plenty of overtime has been worked because of the low average wage. For the past fortnight, however, owing to the import of vast amounts of subsidised acrylic yarn from Turkey, the employees have been working part

  799
  time. That will continue for the foreseeable future. That mirrors the position of textile workers in the West Riding as a whole.
  12.44 am
  Mr. Max Madden: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) on securing this debate and declare my interest as a Member sponsored by the Transport and General Workers Union, the textile group of'which represents many thousands of men and women who work in the textile, clothing and knitwear industries. Thousands of jobs in those industries are now under threat, for within the next few weeks—certainly in the next few months—thousands of redundancies will be announced in them.
  I appeal to the Minister to take urgent action to safeguard textile employment, as it is often in areas that already suffer from high rates of unemployment. I urge him to convene a crisis conference of the textile, clothing and knitwear industries, the textile committee of the Trades Union Congress, employers' organisations that represent the industry, Members of Parliament who represent textile constituencies and local authorities where the textile industries are important so that the Government can be given clear information about the range of action that they should take to assist those industries and the dangers that they face.
  I urge the Minister to put to one side his reputation as a free marketeer and recognise that urgent Government action is necessary if these jobs are to be saved. That is the crisis that confronts the Government. Continued complacency is not an option that they can afford. If they are complacent, many more thousands of men and women in the textile, clothing and knitwear industries will be cast on to the dole queue.
  12.46 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Eric Forth): I congratulate the hon. Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) on obtaining this debate. I recognise the importance of this matter to her and to the other hon. Members who have spoken. I shall cover as many of the points that have been raised as possible, but I may not be able to deal with all of them in the nine minutes that remain, so perhaps I might respond later in writing to those that I cannot cover now.
  I acknowledge the vital importance of the textile and clothing industries to the British economy. They are spread throughout the country, and are not confined to the constituencies of those hon. Members who have spoken. In the hon. Lady's constituency, however, there are some 20 firms, ranging from small establishments with fewer than 20 employees to a subsidiary of one of our largest firms which has more than 300.
  I acknowledge, too, the scale of the industry, even after the retrenchment that has taken place over some decades. We are talking of some 15,000 firms which employ up to 500,000 people. That is equivalent to about 2 per cent. of employment in the United Kingdom, and almost 9 per cent. of manufacturing employment. Output in 1987 was about £12 billion, making it the UK's fourth largest manufacturing industry.
  Exports of textile and clothing products in 1987 totalled more than £3 billion, forming one of the largest exporting sectors in the United Kingdom. Many firms have major
  800
  international links throughout the world. Some of those links are long established, and others are more recent. By any standards, we are talking about very large industries. I salute them on their achievements, and I should like to identify some positive points that have not been brought out fully tonight about the industry's resilience.
  We must pay tribute to the skilled and adaptable work force and the improved management standards that have recently been experienced throughout the industry. The increasing use of more and more sophisticated technology must be acknowledged. It has produced significant productivity gains. We must also remember the critical importance of good design.
  My portfolio includes design, and I should like to take this opportunity to emphasise its importance. Remarkable progress has been made, establishing London as an acknowledged centre of fashion.
  All those factors are of the greatest importance and have produced industries which can match fair competition and respond rapidly to the changing demands of the market place. However, we recognise the great difficulties that those sectors face.
  My Department has a close relationship with the industries through its contacts with individual companies and with trade associations. Ministers and officials meet regularly, and only this morning my hon. Friend the Minister for Trade met representatives of the British Clothing Industry Association and the Knitting Industries Federation to discuss current trade issues. That may go some way to answering the point raised by the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), who called for a special meeting. I emphasise that such meetings and discussions are a continuing process. Although I cannot concede his point, I hope that he will acknowledge that that goes some way to recognising the difficulties that the industry continues to face.
  We acknowledge that there are still significant concerns which I shall do my best to cover. First, I should like to deal with the problem of Turkey, which has been raised by all the hon. Members who have spoken.
  I am aware of the concern about the situation which has arisen in the past year in the acrylic yarn spinning sector, which, as the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) rightly pointed out, has resulted in redundancies and short-term working.
  My hon. Friend the Minister for Trade has met representatives of the Confederation of British Wool Textiles and hon. Members to discuss the problems and officials have followed the situation closely. When the Turkish voluntary textile restraint arrangements with the European Community were renewed last year, we were able to secure a new restraint limit on Turkish acrylic yarn exports to the United Kingdom, although the level was higher than the industry had sought. However, at the time of negotiations, there was insufficient evidence of serious disruption to United Kingdom industry as a result of those imports. The economic data that have to be taken into account in negotiations of this kind—such as the trends of domestic production, consumption and exports—did not at that time show the sort of systematic downward movement which was necessary if we were to be able to make a case for a tighter restraint level. Indeed, United Kingdom production levels remained high well into 1988, although we recognise that the position has changed in recent months. However, it is also relevant to note that imports of Turkish acrylic yarn have also fallen very

  801
  sharply in the first nine months of this year compared with the same period last year, and currently represent only about 25 per cent. of the agreed restraint level.
  It was factors such as these which have created difficulties for the anti-dumping application made by the European industry, including the United Kingdom, against imports of acrylic yarn from Turkey. This application also covered imports from Mexico. We were disappointed that the Commission did not feel able to take action. I am sure that the hon. Member for Bradford, South, with his unique involvement in European matters, will be able to pursue this matter through the institution of which he is such a distinguished member.
  The Department's unfair trade unit assisted the United Kingdom industry in the preparation of its part of the complaint, but on the basis of the information available it was not possible to establish injury attributable to the Turkish imports. Other contributory factors, such as fashion changes which have led to a fall in demand for knitwear, did not help either. I am afraid, therefore, that there does not appear to be an early prospect of returning to the Commission—where the dumping complaint remains on the table—with a renewed request for action. However, the Department's unfair trade unit is continuing to monitor the situation closely in conjunction with United Kingdom industry.
  Before I leave anti-dumping, I should say that work proceeds on other textile cases. Two investigations and one review of earlier measures are in progress at present and a number of other complaints have been lodged with the Commission or are in various stages of preparation. Again, our unfair trade unit is carefully monitoring progress on all these cases.
  I should like to turn briefly to the multi-fibre arrangement. The current phase of the MFA, phase IV, expires in 1991, as hon. Members have pointed out, and
  802
  details of any successor arrangement have yet to be worked out. The MFA is in any case one of the many trade issues under consideration in the GATT multilateral trade negotiations now under way, known as the Uruguay round. In these negotiations, taking place in Geneva, we and the European Community generally are committed to examining the "modalities" for the return of trade in textiles and clothing to normal but strengthened GATT disciplines. The Government believe a lasting return of textiles and clothing trade to GATT rules can be achieved only if the right conditions are established. In particular, we will be looking for a satisfactory safeguards clause to guard against sudden surges of imports, for better market access, and a reduction in trade barriers by developing countries, particularly the newly industrialised countries.
  At the mid-term ministerial meeting in Montreal in December we shall be pressing for a clear reaffirmation of the commitment entered into by trade Ministers of all parties in Punte del Este in 1986 that the "modalities" for returning textiles and clothing to GATT depend upon strengthened rules, and we shall be looking for progress elsewhere in the GATT discussions.
  The news that the United States Congress had failed to override the President's veto of the Textile and Apparel Trade Bill was of course most welcome. Had the Bill passed, it would have imposed limits on legitimate United Kingdom exports to the United States and it could well have resulted in the diversion of third country exports to EC markets. On the other hand, the United States has passed a major new general Trade Act and we shall be monitoring its implication closely. The United States has been left in no doubt that, if the new Act is used in a manner—
  The Motion having been made after Ten o'clock on Monday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at five minutes to One o'clock.

PRIME MINISTER
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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Manchester.

Piper Alpha Inquiry: Information Access
Lord Dean of Beswick Lord Dean of Beswick asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are satisfied that the fullest information is being made available to the trade unions representing the victims, and relatives of victims, of the Piper Alpha disaster.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (Baroness Hooper): My Lords, no representations have been addressed to the Department of Energy about information not being available to trade unions which represent the injured and bereaved. My department will make available to Lord Cullen, the chairman of the inquiry, any document at its disposal which he needs in order to complete his inquiry. It is for Lord Cullen to decide on the dissemination of any information made available to him which may be relevant to the inquiry. I am not aware that Lord Cullen has refused access to any relevant information in his possession.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply. However, will she not agree that this appalling disaster has all the features of one of the all-too-frequent mining disasters of yesteryear, with 167 bodies still entombed in a steel housing? In the light of what the noble Baroness has said regarding the inquiry being carried out by Lord Cullen, will she ask the Secretary of State to consider making some of the information being gathered by Lord Cullen available on an interim basis so as to reduce, at least to some extent, the harrowing time being experienced by the relatives of the people killed in the disaster?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I feel sure that the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick, speaks for all of us in offering sympathy to those bereaved and injured as a result of the accident. Obviously the Government, and everyone concerned with this sad event, wish to deal as sympathetically as possible with the issues arising therefrom. The noble Lord, Lord Cullen, has already made the department's own interim report widely available. I can assure the noble Lord that the representations he has made today will be brought to the attention of Lord Cullen.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Piper Alpha disaster has cast a dark shadow over northern Scotland, especially in the City of Aberdeen—a shadow which persists as bodies are now being recovered? Is she further aware that the Government will receive full support from people in that area, including the offshore industry, in making safety the top priority?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, we are indeed aware of the shadow that this serious accident has cast. The Government's overriding concern has been to make the fullest and earliest use of whatever lessons can be learnt from this tragic event. If changes or new regulations prove necessary, they will be made. The Department of Energy has already asked operators to review urgently pipeline isolation systems, and has written to the industry to highlight six areas of work which should be immediately reviewed in the light of the interim report of the technical investigation of the accident. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has already indicated to Parliament that if the public inquiry can recommend improvements to the present safety regime, then those will be accepted.
Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, is the Minister aware that many employees in the industry are engaged on short-term contracts and therefore many of them feel very nervous about coming forward with complaints, because they fear victimisation and intimidation? Should this aspect not be taken account of in the inquiry?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I feel sure that that aspect will be taken into account. If any employee feels concerned about safety on an offshore installation under any circumstances, he may contact the Department of Energy offshore safety directorate. Each installation displays the telephone number and anonymity is guaranteed. Workers offshore also have the normal protection provided by the Employment Protection Act.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm—or will she deny—reports which have appeared in the press over the weekend that Occidental are constructing a new platform for the Piper field which is to go on the site formerly occupied by Piper Alpha? If so, will the Government persuade Occidental to look very closely at the Norwegian design for platforms in order to ensure that proper safety precautions are taken on the new installation?
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I am not in a position either to confirm or deny those reports which have appeared in the press. But obviously Occidental, or anyone in Occidental's situation, will look carefully at all relevant considerations in constructing any new platforms or rigs. However, I am aware that Occidental has announced that it will meet the costs of legal representation of bereaved families, and survivors, at the public inquiry.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, I am sure that the Minister is aware that my purpose in asking the Question was not to introduce the issue of financial settlements; that is not the purpose of the Question. Indeed, I am glad that no one has touched upon it. However, the Minister will be aware that the energy industry in the broadest sense has always been a dangerous industry in which to work, and this is not the first serious accident where many people have been killed. The purpose behind the Question, as I am sure the Minister is aware, is to prevent a disaster of this kind ever happening again. Can the Minister therefore ensure that the fullest information is available at all times to those representing the people involved in the disaster? Nothing less will satisfy.
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, as I have already said, the department is prepared to make any information available to Lord Cullen. During the period before the public inquiry starts and during the time of the inquiry, obviously it is for Lord Cullen to decide what may be disseminated.

Tourists: Statistics
2.42 p.m.
Lord Gainford Lord Gainford asked Her Majesty's Government:
How many visitors came to Great Britain in 1987 and how much money they spent.
The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne): My Lords, in 1987 overseas residents made 15.4 million visits to the United Kingdom, spending £6.2 billion.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging Answer. Has he any information as to how the Government can encourage those in our tourist industry to help increase the number of tourists who come here from abroad, especially with regard to any criticisms that they may have about value for money at our hotels and the service and food that they receive?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the important thing in this business, as in most others, is to ensure that the customer receives what he wants and what he can afford to pay for. It is therefore incumbent on our tourist industry to ensure that it provides the value for money to which my noble friend has referred.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: My Lords, can the Minister say anything about the average expenditure of tourists last year compared with the year before, and whether there was any notable change in the breakdown of the number of visitors from different geographical sectors?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the breakdown of visitors remains broadly as it has been previously; namely, about 25 per cent. of the visitors come on business trips of one kind or another and the remainder are either tourists or family visitors. As for the expenditure, there is some evidence that tourists especially are spending rather less per head in this country than they used to. That is no doubt due to the high cost of some of the facilities that they would otherwise enjoy.
The Viscount of Falkland: My Lords, although the increased number of tourists is obviously welcome, does the Minister agree that a further concentration of visitors in the places to which tourists tend to go—the Tower of London, Oxford, and so on—will create difficulties? What steps are being taken to widen our country's appeal to tourists so that they spread more evenly over the United Kingdom?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, that is an important function of the tourist authorities, to whom we provided no less than £49 million of support during last year.

Kurds: Human Rights
2.45 p.m.
Lord Stewart of Fulham Lord Stewart of Fulham asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are aware of the suffering of Kurdish people in several countries, and whether they propose to take any action in this matter.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur): My Lords, we are aware of the suffering of the Kurdish people in Iraq, and of the Kurdish refugees in Turkey, as a result of military operations by the Iraqi Government. We have made clear to the Iraqi Government our total opposition to these actions.
Lord Stewart of Fulham: My Lords, in view of the denial of human rights to many of the Kurdish people and the use of chemical weapons, has that matter not become one of universal international importance? Are the Government going to take any action at the United Nations?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, of course we utterly condemn the use of chemical warfare from whatever source. It is a major threat to international security. We condemned chemical warfare by Iran and Iraq in the Iran-Iraq conflict, especially by Iraq against Iranian civilians. The Foreign Office issued a statement about all that on 2nd September. We made clear our views to the Iraqi Ambassador on 6th and 8th October, as did my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary to the Iraqi Minister of State for Foreign Affairs on 21st September. We have also joined in the United Nations' call for an authoritative independent investigation into chemical warfare by Iraq.
Lord Kilbracken: My Lords, the Minister mentioned gas attacks by the Iraqis on the Iranian forces, but he must be aware of the much more serious attacks on the Kurdish people of Iraq who are Iraqi citizens. 1 have received an eye witness report from the refugee camps in Turkey. Are the Government taking serious note of the extremely bad conditions under which the Kurdish refugees from Iraq gas attacks are being held? Will they take every possible step to alleviate them by ensuring, in this order of priority, the supply of blankets, medical equipment and food?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I note what the noble Lord says. With regard to chemical warfare, we believe that an independent mission to try to establish what has happened is the best way forward. Security Council Resolution 620 encourages the Secretary-General to send a mission to investigate the allegations of the use of chemical warfare. That is the type of thing which should be used in cases such as this. We deplore Iraq's refusal to accept such a mission.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, can the Minister say whether it is true that the Turkish Government are also reluctant to allow an investigative mission into their country? If so, what reasons do they give? What pressure have the British Government brought to bear on the Turkish Government to allow such a mission into Turkey to investigate the situation?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, so far as I know that is not the case. The Turks do not feel it possible to co-operate with international relief agencies. We want to try to ensure that it is possible for humanitarian assistance, such as that to which the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, referred, to reach those in need of it. We are in constant touch with the Turkish Government, international agencies and other potential donor governments about what practical help we can offer.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, we support all the initiatives and actions taken by the
6
Government in this matter and also their strong condemnation of the use of chemical weapons. In the light of those actions by the Government, why is a government Minister, Mr. Tony Newton, going to Iraq this week to negotiate trade credits with that government?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, it is of course important to bear in mind that despite the examples to which the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, and other noble Lords have referred of immense dissatisfaction with the way in which Iraq is alleged to have performed in these cases, the wider world of trade goes on. Whether or not anything will come of this visit is a matter for the visitor to decide, and not for me. However, it is vital that we should not lose sight of the importance of developing a political dialogue and other relationships with Iraq and putting them on a sounder footing. Iraq is a major regional power. It has strong political and economic prospects. However, the noble Lord is quite right in saying that allegations of chemical warfare being used must cast a cloud over our relationships.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, is not the whole history of the Kurdish people absolutely heartrending? They have no country of their own and they have been persecuted by every country which has been responsible for their conditions.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, my noble and learned friend is quite right; theirs is a history of tragedy. That is why we want to try to do what we can to ensure that they have a more fulfilling future.
Lord McNair: My Lords, follow:ng the question from the noble and learned Lord, perhaps 1 may ask whether the Minister and the Government agree that some improvement in the position of the Kurds should form an integral part of any settlement of the Gulf War.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, with respect, I think that is slightly wide of the immediate Question. The Iran-Iraq talks have started up again in Geneva today. Whether or not those ultimately lead to some improvement in the condition of the Kurds is an interesting possibility, but I am not sure that the problems are directly related.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, Mr. Newton is an able and fairly senior member of the Government. If he is visiting Iraq this week, will the noble Lord convey to his right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary the need for Mr. Newton, while he is there, to make representations on these matters which concern the House and which cause distress throughout the country and internationally?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we shall lose no time at all in making the kinds of representations that he feels are necessary.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether there is any form of Kurdish authority

7
with which we can have discussions or from which we can get the full story of what is happening in the Kurdish lands?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I am afraid I do not know precisely to whom it would be proper to address such representations, but I shall certainly make inquiries and let my noble friend know.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that although the Kurdish people have suffered appallingly, they are not the only people suffering as refugees? The number of refugees created in the past five or six years all over the world is desperate. Will the Government be prepared to assist the Secretary-General of the United Nations to create an investigating force which would examine the atrocities being committed in some parts of Israel by Israeli people and in some parts of the Arab land on the West Bank, with people punishing others for nothing? Perhaps we ought to take a firmer stand and bring this item more forcefully to the agenda of the United Nations, to assist the Secretary-General.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, it is very difficult to know what could be more on the agenda of the United Nations. As I have said, the United Nations produced Resolution 620 but the Iraqis in this case refused to accept a mission. It is on the agenda and will remain so.

Keep Britain Tidy Campaign
2.54 p.m.
Lord Hayter Lord Hayter asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they have given up hope of persuading people to keep Britain tidy.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, far from giving up hope, we have increased financial support for the Tidy Britain Group. It is carrying out a range of experimental projects. The group envisages a major drive based on the results of these projects for 1990—Tidy Britain Year.
Lord Hayter: My Lords, will the Minister accept that in our heart of hearts nearly everybody in this House is ashamed of the litter in our streets and on our transport services? Will he tell us why he thinks that this move will be any more successful than the last one?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, the projects to which I have referred obviously cost money. While it is too soon to reach conclusions, the Tidy Britain Group reports that it is receiving enthusiastic support from many major organisations, as well as from local authorities and voluntary groups.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that there is a proper understanding in government circles that it costs money not only for the Keep Britain Tidy Group but especially for local authorities? It is no good
8
exhorting people to keep Britain tidy unless adequate resources are given for this task, especially in our major cities.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I take the point that the right reverend Prelate makes, but it is up to each individual local authority to decide what priority it wishes to give to keeping its area, including its highways, tidy.
Lord Renton: My Lords, have not local authorities two responsibilities? One is to clean up the public places in their own districts. The other is to institute prosecutions under the Litter Act. Can the Minister say to what extent local authorities are being reasonably zealous on the latter point?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I understand the point my noble friend makes. We are not necessarily convinced that changes in the law would be effective. There are always difficulties with enforcement and we prefer solutions which enlist the community and civic pride, though we do not rule out the option of law enforcement.
The Viscount of Falkland: My Lords, is the Minister aware that anyone who has the misfortune to live on a route used by children going to and from school every day often returns to what can only be described as a carpet of sweet papers and empty chip packets? Is there not a duty on the manufacturers of those products, who obviously do very well out of them, to take some part of the responsibility? Perhaps in their advertising they could encourage children to put sweet papers where they are supposed to go; that is, in dustbins.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I agree to some extent, not with the remedy but with the point the noble Viscount makes. However, children are considerably encouraged at school during their education hours to understand the problems of litter.
Lord Grimston of Westbury: My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister inform us whether keeping Britain tidy extends to motor cars? What instructions are given to police to remove motor cars?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, the keeping tidy of motorways is the responsibility of the Department of Transport. Highways are the responsibility of local authorities.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, how does the Government's concern tie in with the code of practice issued by the Department of Transport to local authorities? That code says that litter bins shall be removed from all-purpose trunk roads; that all-purpose kerbed rural roads shall not be swept more than once a year and that all-purpose kerbed urban roads shall not be swept more than twice a year. Does this not seem very much out of line with what people in this country are thinking and what the Government are saying?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I think that is a rather diffuse question. I shall certainly look at it and reply to the noble Baroness.
Noble Lords: Answer!
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, does the Minister feel it would be worth while liaising with the Palace and asking His Royal Highness Prince Charles to make a statement about this matter? Then we would receive the maximum publicity, such as the Prince received on Thursday of last week.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, it would be entirely inappropriate for Her Majesty's Government to answer on behalf of the Royal Family.
Lord Morris: My Lords, does my noble friend care to comment on the observation of Juvenal that if everyone kept their own front doorstep clean the whole city would be clean?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, in response to my noble friend, we have considered the possibility of making people responsible for keeping the pavements etc. clean outside their own premises. However, it would be difficult to enforce that, as a householder accused of not discharging his obligation could always argue that he had done his cleaning and the litter had blown over from another frontage. For the present, we believe this to be an area where voluntary efforts will he much more effective than laws and regulations.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, I welcome the extra support which has been given to the Tidy Britain Group, with which I have been associated for many years. Will the noble Earl say when the Government are proposing to introduce Section 4 of the Litter Act 1983? That would require each local authority to introduce and implement a plan for dealing with litter in full cooperation with other bodies.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I regret that I cannot answer that particular question; but of course I shall correspond with the noble Lord.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, can the Government encourage this House to set those whom we condemn a good example by not leaving a litter of paper behind whenever we adjourn?
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, that is very sensible. However, I note that when the House gets up each night, there seems to me to be remarkably little litter around the place.
3.2 p.m.

European Communities (Finance) Bill
Brought from the Commons endorsed with the certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill; read a first time and ordered to be printed.
London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Bill [H.L.]
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

Housing (Scotland) Bill
3.4 p.m.
The Earl of Dundee: My Lords, I Deg to move that the Commons amendments to certain Lords amendments he now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendments to certain Lords amendments be now considered.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
AMENDMENTS TO BE MOVED ON CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS AMENDMENTS TO CERTAIN OF THE LORDS AMENDMENTS
[References are to HL Bill 69 as first printed by the Lords. The Commons amendments are printed in italics]

LORDS AMENDMENT
1 Clause 16, page 10, line 40, after first ("subsection") insert (", subsection (1) of section [Right of succession of spouse] below,").
The Commons disagreed to the above amendment but proposed the following amendment in lieu thereof—
2 Page 10, line 40, leave out ("or subsection (4) of section 43 below") and insert (", subsection (1) of section [Right of succession of spouse] below or section 3A of the Rent (Scotland) Act 1984").
The Earl of Dundee: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 1 to which the Commons have disagreed, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 2 in lieu thereof. We require to substitute Amendment No. 2 for Amendment No. 1 for purely technical reasons. As your Lordships may recall, following debate in this House, and particularly because of the views expressed by my noble friend Lord Selkirk, the Government agreed to recast Clause 46 and Schedule 6 to the Bill to improve the presentation on the face of the Bill of the new succession rules for regulated tenants.
Unfortunately however we did not take account of the recasting of Clause 46, when on Report in your Lordships' House we introduced Amendment No. 1. Consequently, the reference to subsection (1) of Clause 46 in Clause 16 is incorrect. Amendment No. 2 substitutes the proper cross reference.
I also wish to speak to Amendment No. 5 on the Marshalled List. That is required in order to remove from the repeals schedule an entry which becomes unnecessary because of the recasting of Schedule 6, which I touched upon a moment ago. Amendment No. 5 is also therefore purely of a technical nature. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 1, to which the Commons have disagreed, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 2 in lieu thereof. —(The Earl of Dundee.)
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I do not desire to speak for particularly long on this subject. I have no

11
desire to oppose the Government; but I would say that this amendment, which is being substituted for the amendment that was sent from this House to the Commons, is really a backward step. The Minister himself in another place agreed that the Government's new amendment would mean that a widow of a successor tenant could simply be summarily evicted from her house. To me that seems rather more than a merely technical amendment. I am rather sad that the Government were not willing to accept the original amendment put forward from your Lordships' House. However, I can see that the other amendments are largely technical, and I shall certainly not oppose them.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, is there really a change in meaning here, or is this purely a drafting amendment?
The Earl of Dundee: My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that this is entirely a drafting amendment.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT
3 Clause 70, page 41, line 10, after ("force") insert ("as follows—

(a) section 65 and section 68 (so far as relating to Schedule 7) and this section and that Schedule, shall come into force on the day this Act is passed;

(b) sections 33 to 37, 62, 63 and 67 and section 68 (so far as relating to Schedule 8 and to the entries in Schedule 10 in respect of—

7 (i) sections 62(11) to (13), 151, 200, 254, 255, 296 and 297 of; and
9 (ii) provisions of Schedules 13 and 14 to,
the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987),
and Schedule 8 and, in Schedule 10, those entries shall come into force at the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed;
(c) section 68 (so far as relating to the entry in Schedule 10 relating to paragraph (1)(b) of Schedule 16 to the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987) and that entry shall come into force on 1st April 1989;
(d) the remaining provisions shall come into force.")
4 The Commons agreed to the above amendment with the following amendment—
Line 7, leave out from beginning to end of line 9 and insert ("sections 62(11) to (13) and 151 of')
The Earl of Dundee: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 4 to the Lords Amendment No. 3.
Under the provisions of Clause 63 of this Bill, a number of Exchequer subsidies are terminated with effect from 1st April 1989; but because of a drafting error, the date of the consequential repeal of the existing powers is specified in Clause 70(2)(b) as being two months after the date of Royal Assent.
That error, if uncorrected, would leave a gap of nearly three months between the repeals and the coming into force of the new provisions on 1st April 1989. There would therefore be no legal right for a local authority to receive, or for the Government to pay, the grants and subsidies covered by these repealed provisions during that period.
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Amendment No. 4 to Lords Amendment No. 3 therefore removes from Clause 70(2)(b) the references to existing provisions from those coming into force two months after the date of Royal Assent, leaving them to be repealed by a Commencement Order under subsection (2)(d) on 1st April 1989. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 4 to the Lords Amendment No. 3.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

AS A CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENT TO THE BILL
5 The Commons proposed the following consequential amendment to the Bill—
Page 69, line 18, column 3, leave out from beginning to end of line 26.
The Earl of Dundee: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their consequential Amendment No. 5—( The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Firearms (Amendment) Bill
3.8 p.m.
Read a third time.
Clause 1 [Prohibited weapons and ammunition]:
Lord Swansea Lord Swansea moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 17, at end insert ("or which is an air weapon").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 1. If your Lordships will look at Clause 1, (2) (ab) of the Bill, they will see that this exempts any:
"self-loading or pump-action rifle other than one which is chambered for 22 rim-fire cartridges".
I think that my amendment would fit into this clause because there are certain air weapons which employ a kind of air reservoir which is pumped up for use. The air rifle or air pistol can fire a succession of pellets one at a time, one for each pull of the trigger, without any further pumping up of the reservoir.
These air weapons do not come under the category of specially dangerous air weapons, for which a firearms certificate is required. Therefore there is no reason that I can see why they should not be included in this exemption under Clause 1. I beg to move.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, my noble friend is seeking by means of this amendment to exempt from the prohibition on self-loading and pump-action rifles in subsection (2)(ab) of Clause 1 all air weapons. The reason why no reference is made in subsection (2)(ab) to air weapons is a fairly simple one. So far as we are aware, there are no self-loading air rifles in existence at the moment. I understand my noble friend's prudent approach in looking into the future; but I find it difficult to agree with what my noble friend is proposing for a number of reasons.

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First, we have done a certain amount of research into the problem which my noble friend has quite rightly highlighted. We cannot find evidence that there are any self-loading air guns on the market in this country or being manufactured. Therefore, if we were to accept my noble friend's amendment we should be legislating for something which does not at present exist.
My noble friend may say "Ah, they may exist in the future and if they did the weapons would automatically fall in the Section 5 category and become prohibited". That may happen or it may not. Either way the matter is speculative.
Secondly, one must ask what would be the legitimate use of a self-loading air rifle. Air rifles are usually used by young people for target practice. Sometimes they are used against vermin. They can be very dangerous. Your Lordships are doubtless aware of the concern which arises periodically over the misuse of air weapons. However, the House may not be aware that in 1987 there were no fewer than 5,172 incidents of criminal damage or injury to the person or animals as a result of the use of what might he termed "ordinary" air weapons. Many of those incidents involved the use of low-powered air weapons and I really cannot think that your Lordships would wish to increase the risk by making self-loading repeating rifles of that type freely available to young people. That would certainly be the consequence of my noble friend's amendment.
The third reason is more fundamental. Parliament considered that air weapons can be sufficiently dangerous that they should be controlled in the same way as a rifle: The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 determined that any rifle which is capable of discharging a kinetic energy level in excess of 12 foot lb at the point of discharge—and 6foot lb in the case of an air pistol—requires a firearms certificate for its purchase and possession.
Some of those air weapons are very powerful and as such fall into a Section 1 category. What my noble friend is suggesting is that, if there is a weapon—and there is not as yet—which falls just below that level and can be repeatedly fired, it should be available outside the controls for purchase and use by anyone over the age of 14 (and under that age provided that they are supervised—and there are no checks on who supervises an air weapon user).
For those reasons I do not believe that my noble friend's amendment would be a suitable addition to the Bill.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he has said. He pointed out that I may be legislating for something that does not exist. However, Clause 1(4) of the Bill does that very thing; it legislates for things that do not already exist.
The dangerous use of air weapons is a matter on which the shooting interests themselves have always kept a very close eye. They would not like to see the dangerous misuse of such air weapons. However, my noble friend does not feel inclined to accept the amendment. Therefore I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.15 p.m.
Clause 4 [Transfers of shot guns]::
Lord Swansea Lord Swansea moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 3, line 35, leave out ("forty-eight") and insert ("seventy-two").
The noble Lord said, My Lords, the amendment applies to the lending of shotguns for a short period to someone who does not possess a shotgun certificate. It falls under Clause 4 (1) of the Bill which reads at present, in part:
"where a person—…
(b) lends a shotgun for a period of more than forty-eight hours".
The person to whom the shotgun is lent may be a visitor to this country or someone who does not already possess a shotgun certificate. I invite your Lordships to consider a case in which the borrower may perhaps travel to a part of the country some distance away, for example, Scotland, in order to shoot for a weekend. The period of 48 hours allowed in the Bill for him to acquire the shotgun, travel, carry out his shooting and return the shotgun to the owner is barely sufficient. That is why I should like to see the period of 48 hours extended to 72 hours. I beg to move.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I much prefer Amendment No. 2 to Amendment No. 3 in my own name. Amendment No. 3 merely provides a safety net or fall back position in the—I hope—unlikely event of Amendment No. 2 being unacceptable to the Government or to the House.
Clearly the 48-hour provision currently in the Bill is almost unworkable. Anyone living in, say, Hampshire who is invited to shoot in Scotland or even Northumberland and borrows a gun in order to do so will find it almost impossible to return it within the 48-hour limit without entirely ruining his weekend. A 60-hour limit would help perhaps two-thirds of those who borrow guns for the weekend and as such would be better than nothing. However, that would still leave one-third of potential borrowers out in the cold. That being so I hope that the Government will accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Swansea.
Lord Burton: My Lords, I sympathise with the amendment. A great deal of the administration of the Bill will be carried out by civilians who presumably will not work over the weekend. Therefore if one wants a weapon on a Saturday one would not be able to notify officials on Sunday because they would not be available. It seems very reasonable that the limit should be extended to 72 hours.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, both the amendment of my noble friend Lord Swansea (Amendment No. 2) and that of the noble Lord, Lord Monson (Amendment No. 3) seek to extend the period of loans of shotguns which do not have to be notified either to the police or included on the shotgun certificate. I understand the concern underlying both amendments.
The present 48-hour exemption was designed to cater for a weekend shooting. However, I can envisage a situation such as my noble friend Lord

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Swansea has suggested in which a gun is borrowed in a town on Friday afternoon for a weekend shoot in the country and is not returned to the owner until the following Monday. In those cases the present 48-hour exemption would be fairly restrictive.
I noted that the noble Lord, Lord Monson, preferred my noble friend Lord Swansea's amendment. So do I. For those reasons I am happy to accept the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Swansea.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 3 not moved.]
Clause 10 [Statements in support of applications for certificates]:
Lord Mishcon Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 6, line 6, at end insert ("whether by reason of character, mental instability or otherwise").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, at Report stage I suggested to the House that we bore in mind some of the unfortunate firearms incidents which had prompted this legislation. I further ventured to say that the legislation before us by no means made it clear that we were registering in our own minds some of those examples. They arose very largely out of mental instability which would have been observed and certainly should have been by anyone who had known the applicant for a licence at all well.
Accordingly I asked that an amendment should be accepted by the Government which made it clear that when considering suitability for the grant of a licence any referee should be required by legislation to have in mind such questions as character, mental instability or otherwise. Your Lordships were then treated to a dissertation upon constitutional law from very learned sources. I was therefore met with the prospect of asking the House to accept my legal interpretation of the constitution as against that of the noble and learned Lords who opposed me. It was not an easy exercise but I endeavoured to undertake it.
As a long stop I thought I would suggest to the Government that, if on reflection, it was not possible to include this in the legislation without walking into grave difficulties of interpretation and so on, we should at least have a clear provision in the application form to be signed by the referee that he should have regard to such matters as mental instability, character and nature. The Minister with his usual courtesy said that he would consider that matter carefully between the Report stage and Third Reading. He has been good enough to write to me in terms which suggest—and I must leave it to him to say this to the House—that including such a provision in the application form by way of guidance to the referee is acceptable to the Government. If I hear those words from the Minister I shall take a very obvious course in regard to the amendment.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the amendment tabled by the noble Lord today is in identical terms to the one
16
that was tabled at Report stage. He reminded your Lordships of the discourse which was then entered into between his legal self and a noble and learned Lord. At that time I did not wish to get involved in such a legal discourse. I merely undertook to look at the problem which he raised so eloquently and appropriately. I said that I would look at the matter to see whether guidance might be included in the appropriate place on application forms to remind countersignatories of the need to consider the character and mental stability of the applicant. I said at Report stage that it would be difficult for us to put such a provision on the face of the Bill and I explained why I thought that that would not be appropriate. I looked at the matter again and I wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, about it. I am happy to say that we shall be doing just as I indicated. In my letter I said:
"We shall include in the application forms brief advice to countersignatories on the factors which they ought to take into consideration".
I am grateful to the noble Lord for drawing the point to our attention. We shall put that in the application forms. I hope that, as usual, I have been able to satisfy the noble Lord.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, I wish that that last remark was consistent with the noble Earl's actions. Nevertheless, it would be most ungracious of me if I did not thank him most sincerely for what he has said and done. I ask the House for leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 12 [Revocation of certificates]:
Lord Mishcon Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 6, line 37, after ("succeeds") insert ("and subject to any contrary order the court may make").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a very short point which I raised at Report stage. When an appeal against the revocation of a licence is allowed, the Bill presently states that any ammunition of firearms that have been confiscated by the police must be immediately returned. I envisage the possibility of a case where, although for some reason the appeal is allowed, some if not all of the firearms or ammunition involved might not in the wisdom of the court be returned to the appellant. I therefore put in the safeguard—and I have used slightly different words on this occasion,
"and subject to any contrary order the court may make".
I think it is right to leave a discretion to the court. As the Bill stands, if any appeal against revocation is allowed, quite automatically, whatever the court may think, any ammunition or firearms that have been confiscated prior to the appeal must be returned to the appellant. I beg to move.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I share the noble Lord's concern that the discretion of the court should not be fettered inappropriately. We should not wish to see such a thing happen. But I do not think it appropriate to give the court the discretion which the noble Lord is seeking. The question to be considered is whether

17
a person ought to have his licence revoked. The only question which the court has to decide is whether that person is a danger to public safety. If the court concludes that the person is not a danger to public safety the weapons will be returned to the owner. If on the other hand the court concludes that he is a danger to public safety—and such a danger that he ought not to be in possession of his weapons—it is appropriate that the weapons should be removed.
The noble Lord has a vivid imagination which allows him to visualise a court saying that a man is a sufficient danger to public safety that he ought not to have one weapon but that he can have the other five weapons. The only question which the court has to decide on this occasion is whether the person is a danger to public safety. Should the court conclude that he is sufficiently dangerous to public safety to have his weapons removed, the applicant can make a fresh application for the mysterious five weapons which the noble Lord fears he might he entitled to keep. The applicant can make that application and the chief officer can consider that afresh.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, the noble Earl usually shows a great breadth of vision. It has been somewhat narrowed down, in my humble estimation, by the guidance he has received on this occasion. I ask the House to treat this question very seriously indeed.
I take an example that does not appear to have been in the noble Earl's mind. A licence is revoked by virtue of the fact that a dangerous weapon is in the hands of the applicant. The applicant does not satisfy the police that that weapon was there by some accident. From his point of view it is not a blameworthy incident. The licence is revoked and the matter goes to court. The court is met with this difficulty, it having been pointed out that we, as careful legislators, have given the court no discretion. If the court decides that it believes what the applicant has said, or on taking everything into consideration thinks that the licence should not be revoked, the dangerous weapon found in the hands of the applicant must be returned to him.
That is the last thing in the world the court will have wanted to happen. It might feel that, although it would otherwise have allowed the appeal, it could not do so because it would be failing in its duty if automatically and as a mandatory matter the weapon had to be returned to the appellant. It could not even make a decision to allow the appeal on condition that the appellant delivered the weapon to the police for destruction. The weapon must be returned to him. We allow no leeway for the court to make a conditional order or for the court to say that the appeal is allowed but that the weapon is not to be restored to the owner.
We are supposed to be careful legislators, providing for all contingencies that we can reasonably foresee. I have given but one example. There are others that I am sure your Lordships can think of. I know of no reason why the Government should not agree to this amendment. It merely allows a discretion for the court in an appropriate case—which I agree may be very rare—to say, "The appeal is allowed but I have looked at the weapon that is to be confiscated and I shall say that for good
18
reason part of this weaponry should not be returned to the appellant."
I ask the Minister to have second thoughts and, with the leave of the House if that be necessary, to express them. However, if that is not so, then—I was going to say, with great disappointment—I should find it obligatory to take the opinion of the House. Otherwise we are falling short of our duties as legislators.
The matter is not one of policy. It has nothing to do with any principle behind this Bill. But it has something to do with limiting the power of the court quite unnecessarily.
3.30 p.m.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall try to help the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. I realise that he has put down an amendment that he feels would improve the Bill. We are concerned in this case only with the situation where a chief officer has taken the view that a certain person is in such a state that he is a danger to public safety if he has in his possession firearms for which he has a firearms certificate. Only on the occasions of public safety is the chief officer permitted to say, "You ought no longer to hold those weapons. You are a danger." On that occasion the person concerned has all the rights to appeal against this decision. He will appeal to the courts and say, "My certificate is being removed from me. I do not think that it is fair." The court has to decide whether that certificate with all the weapons on it should be revoked; or whether it should not be revoked and therefore the appellant can keep his weapons.
The only question that the court has to decide is whether or not that certificate should be revoked. If a court decides that the chief officer was wrong to revoke a person's certificate on the grounds of public safety, if it allows his appeal and returns his certificate to him, then clearly he will have returned to him all the weapons to which the certificate relates. If there were still some question over that person's fitness to hold them safely, then presumably the court would not have upheld the appeal. But on that occasion it has done so.
On the other hand, if the court accepts the view of the chief constable that this person is simply not safe to have these weapons for which he holds a valid certificate, and that certificate ought to be revoked, then the court is entitled to revoke that certificate and dismiss the appeal. That is the only question that the court has to decide.
The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, confuses the issue slightly if he says that the court ought to consider whether the appellant could keep some of the weapons on the certificate and not the others. That is not the question that the court has to decide. It is whether or not the chief officer was right in revoking the certificate on the grounds of public safety. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that it is the only question which the courts have to consider.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down— I have to preface my remarks with that

19
observation, otherwise I do not have the right to speak twice—he has not in any way addressed himself to the example which I gave. I must repeat it because of the need to try to get this clause right, and not unnecessarily to impair the powers of the court. I gave an example where the police had come to the conclusion that the licence should be forfeited because a dangerous weapon, not included in the certificate, was found in his possesssion. He finds that his explanation for the possession of that dangerous firearm is not accepted by the police, but is accepted by the court. Meanwhile the firearms, including the dangerous weapon, have been confiscated. My humble submission is this—the Minister may, on advice differ from it. What harm do we do if we make a proviso of this kind for the sake of safety?
In my humble submission the court would find itself in difficulty by virtue of the mandatory way in which this clause is now worded; namely, that if the appeal is allowed then the firearms concerned, including this dangerous weapon, would have to be returned to the appellant.
Lord Renton: My Lords, will the noble Lord allow me to intervene? I am grateful to him for giving way. This is an interesting point and quite a difficult one. However, has it occurred to the noble Lord that he is giving the courts the power to confiscate property—in other words, a weapon, or weapons in this case—even though as a result of their inquiry they have not come to any conclusion against the person concerned showing that he was in any way to blame? Is that right? It is not in accordance with our usual sense of justice.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, I must be lacking, and very peculiarly so, in clarity this afternoon. I apologise to the House if that be so. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, agrees that I am lacking in clarity, then in those circumstances I must be.
For the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Renton, whose intervention I appreciate, I shall repeat the example I gave. I am sure that he also wishes to get this clause right and not wrongfully to interfere with the court's discretion. My example was this. The police had properly confiscated a weapon. The weapon in question has led the police, because of that person's possession of it, to revoke a licence. They do not accept that person's explanation for his possession of that weapon or the condition of it which has made it dangerous. It may have been covered by the licence. I wish to protect the court and the public.
If the appeal is allowed because the court finds that the explanation justifies them in allowing the appeal it could then say, "The appeal is to be allowed but we do not want that weapon which has been altered"—it may have been a weapon on the firearms certificate but it has been altered dangerously perhaps by somebody else—"you say by somebody else without your knowldge, to go back into your possession. It is to go to the police". The court cannot do it under this
20
wording. The wording of the clause is mandatory. It states:
"If an appeal against the revocation of the certificate succeeds, the firearm or ammunition shall be returned".
There is no question of the discretion of the court to say, "We want that altered weapon passed over to the police". That is the point that I am making—good, bad or indifferent.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend can tell us what the principal Act says on this matter. I much regret that I have not read Section 31. I wonder whether it is relevant to the point. I cannot deny that there is a considerable force in what the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, has said. I can see the situation arising but I cannot form a judgment unless I know what is in the principal Act. I wonder whether my noble friend can help us on this.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I do not want to find myself in contravention of all the rules of procedure, but I can answer my noble friend only if I have the leave of the House. If the House does not wish me to do so, I shall happily resume my seat, but as 1 have been invited by my noble friend Lord Selkirk to throw some light on this matter, I shall do my best to throw such light.
We are referring here to a clause which reads:
"Where a certificate is revoked by the chief officer of police under section 30(1)(a) or (2)".
My noble friend Lord Selkirk asked what that said. Section 30(1) states that:
"A firearm certificate may be revoked by the chief officer of police for the area in which the holder resides if …the chief officer is satisfied that the holder is prohibited by this Act from possessing a firearm to which section 1 of this Act applies or is of intemperate habits or unsound mind, or is otherwise unfitted to be entrusted with such a firearm".
Subsection (2) states that:
"A shot gun certificate may be revoked by the chief officer of police if he is satisfied that the holder is prohibited by this Act from possessing a shot gun or cannot be permitted to possess a shot gun without danger to the public safety or to the peace".
I tried to follow the example of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. Of course he is always clear. If there was doubt about his ability to be clear, my only doubt is my ability to comprehend. If the weapon is not on the firearms certificate, which I think was the point that the noble Lord was making—he shakes his head in dissent—then it is not lawfully held and therefore it cannot be part of an appeal or a revocation process.
The police already have the powers to take away unlicensed weapons, but I believe there is no need for the court to have the power to order the seizure of weapons under these provisions. The police already have the power under Section 46 of the 1968 Act to seize weapons. I fear that my ability to comprehend the noble Lord's simple point is even greater than it normally is. The question the court has to decide is whether or not the certificate has to be revoked. If it is to be revoked because the person is of unsound mind and is a danger to the peace, it would seem that all the items on that certificate ought to be discharged from the appellant. However, if the court does not decide that, then the appellant gets them back. The noble Lord shakes his head in dissent. It distresses me

21
enormously that I have been unable to convince the noble Lord of what to me seems such an eminently simple point.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, I should weary the House to the point of absolute boredom if I were to continue this argument.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: Hear, hear!
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, I may risk doing that to the House, but I certainly should not risk doing it to the noble and learned Lord. In the circumstances all I can do is to divide the House for the simple reason that I want it to be on record that I tried in what I believe to be an honourable cause.
3.44 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 5) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 47: Not-Contents, 144.

DIVISION NO. 1

CONTENTS

Blease. L.

Mishcon, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Molloy, L.

Carmichacl of Kelvingrove, L.

Mulley, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Nicol, B.

Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.

Peston, L.

David, B.

Phillips, B.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

pitt of Hampstead, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.[Teller.]

Ennals, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Prys-Davies, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Ridley, V.

Gallachcr, L.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Galpern, L.

Serota, B.

Graham of Edmonton, L.[Teller.]

Shannon, E.

Shepherd, L.

Hirshfield, L.

Stallard, L.

Houghton of Sowcrby, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Hughes, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Jay, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Jeger, B.

Turner of Camden, B.

Kilbracken, L.

Underhill, L.

Leatherland, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Listowel, E.

Willis, L.

Longford, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addington, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Broadbridge, L.

Alexander of Weedon, L.

Brookeborough, V.

Allerton, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Ampthill, L.

Burton, L.

Annan, L.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Arran, E.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Attlee, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Auckland, L.

Carnock, L.

Aylestone, L.

Clitheroe, L.

Banks, L.

Colnbrook, L.

Beaverbrook, L.

Constantine of Stanmore, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Belstead, L.

Cox, B.

Bessborough, E.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Blyth, L.

Darcy (de Knayth), B.

Bolton, L.

Davidson, V.[Teller.]

Bonham-Carter, L.

De Freyne, L.

Borthwick, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Dudley, B.

22

Dulverton, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Dundee, E.

Ellenborough, L.

Merrivale, L.

Elles, B.

Mersey, V.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Milverton, L.

Faithfull, B.

Monson, L.

Falkland, V.

Mostyn, L.

Ferrers, E.

Mottistone, L

Fortescue, E.

Mountgarret, V.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Munster, E.

Gladwyn, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Northesk, E.

Goschen, V.

Ogmore, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Orkney, E.

Grey, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Gridley, L.

Oxfuird, V.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Peel, E.

Haddington, E.

Pender, L.

Haig, E.

Peyton of Yeovil, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Platt of Writtle, B.

Rankeillour, L.

Halsbury, E.

Rathcreedan, L.

Hampton, L.

Reigate, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Renton, L.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Renwick, L.

Harvington, L.

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Hayter, L.

Rugby, L.

Hesketh, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Hives, L.

St. Davids, V.

Holderness, L.

Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Seear, B.

Hood, V.

Skelmersdale, L.

Hooper, B.

Slim, V.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Somers, L.

Jessel, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Johnston of Rockport, L.

Strathspey, L.

Kaberry of Adel, L.

Swansea, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Thomas of Gwydir, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Thorneycroft, L.

Long, V.

Tordoff, L.

Lonsdale, E.

Torphichen, L.

Lovat, L.

Torrington, V.

Lyell, L.

Trevor, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Mackie of Benshie, L.

Walston, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Westbury, L.

McNair, L.

Whaddon, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Whitelaw, V.

Manton, L.

Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.

Mar, C.

Margadale, L.

Wise, L.

Marley, L.

Young of Grarffham, L.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
3.52 p.m.
Clause 15 [Rifle and pistol clubs]:
Lord Swansea Lord Swansea moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 8, line 10, at end insert ("or competition").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 6. It refers to Clause 15(1), dealing with exemptions. The subsection states:
"A member of a rifle club, miniature rifle club or pistol club approved by the Secretary of State, may, without holding a firearm certificate, have in his possession a firearm and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in, or in connection with, target practice".
My amendment will add to the end of that subsection the words:
"or competition".
There are occasions when people who do not hold firearms certificates take part in competition as

23
distinct from practice. The amendment is designed to clarify that position and I should like to give the House an example. A meeting takes place at the ranges of the National Rifle Association at Bisley, during which a competition is held between school teams. A large number of old boys attend the meeting to cheer on their school teams and afterwards there is a competition for the old boys. It is a competition because prizes are given. It is the only shoot of the year for many of those who attend on that day. Many do not possess firearms certificates but they turn up for that one shoot of the year to meet friends, have a fun day and perhaps a party afterwards.
I should like to give the House another example. It is the annual competition which takes place between teams representing your Lordships' House and another place. I am glad to say that the team representing your Lordships' House was successful in winning that match this year and last year. I do not know, because I have never asked members of your Lordships' team, but I suspect that some may not have firearms certificates. They attend the competition once a year and I suspect that many members of both teams do not have firearms certificates.
Your Lordships may feel that I have quoted special cases but I believe that they ought to he taken into account. I am sure that such competitions take place elsewhere in the country from time to time. There is a well-known legal axiom which is that "hard cases make bad law". The answer is that the whole of the Bill is founded on a hard case.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I should like to ask how one starts to define the competition for the old boys—
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, what about the old girls?
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, in deference to my noble and learned friend, a competition for old girls! Could not some of the wide boys devise another kind of competition which, under no reasonable approach, could possibly qualify for exemption? Therefore, I suggest that the concept of amending the Bill to include competition without a qualifying definition to curtail the area of exemption should not be acceptable to your Lordships' House.
Baroness Phillips: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. The Government have had the courage to introduce the Act. I am sure that courage was required because their supporters are mainly those interested in shooting. Surely in the long clause defining exemptions the Government have covered every possibility and it seems unreasonable to introduce such an amendment for what appears to be only a single occasion.
I hope that the Government will resist the amendment. They have been most generous; there are approximately 19 exemptions. Surely they are sufficient, even for the gun lobby.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway asked me to define a competition for old boys and a competition for old girls. I am not sure that the definition would be the same in each case and I shall not be invited to go down that path. We must keep the matter in the right perspective.
My noble friend Lord Swansea made clear the purpose of his amendment. I do not believe that it would achieve its intended effect because there are not the necessary consequential amendments to subsections (2) and (8) of the clause.
It is only fair to explain the purpose of a club approval under Clause 15. It is to allow club members to engage specifically in target practice without the need for a firearms certificate. That enables those who have just embarked on a shooting career, or who are thinking of doing so, or who cannot afford a gun of their own, to do so without having to obtain a firearms certificate. It would also, as the current memorandum of guidance makes clear, enable club members to use club firearms for target practice at ranges away from their home premises.
To use weapons for those purposes without a firearms certificate is quite a concession. We believe that those who wish to compete in serious competition should have to obtain a firearms certificate in the normal way. My noble friend Lord Swansea gave an example of the old boys' match at Bisley or the Lords and Commons rifle competition. I believe that we might be in danger of moving too far away from the basic principles if we followed those examples to their limits.
Clause 15 provides nothing more—this is important—than an exemption from the certificate requirements for any member of an approved club who wishes to carry out target practice. This is exactly the same as existing legislation. Nothing has changed. All that Clause 15 does is to change the length of the present lifetime approval of the club to one of six years. The present legislation which, as far as I know, has permitted my noble friend Lord Swansea to take part in all sorts of shooting matches, has been operating for over 20 years without, so far as I am aware, any problems. Those who were able to benefit from the existing Act will still be able to do so under Clause 15.
The effect of my noble friend's amendment would be to permit those who take part in competition to take club firearms from one range to another and keep them in their houses overnight—all without any checks or notification and without holding a firearms certificate. To be able to use a firearm for target practice without a certificate is a major concession, but to allow people to go all over the country to compete in serious competition without certification is not what the club approval system is—or I suggest should be—all about.
For those reasons, I hope that my noble friend will agree that the amendment which he suggests would not be appropriate.
4 p.m.
Lord Walston: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, perhaps he can answer one query to which I

25
am sure I should know the answer. He referred to this permission being granted to take away a weapon for one night. Is there any limit on the number of nights for which a person may keep the weapon and are there any restrictions as to where he keeps it? Can he keep it on his dining room table or must it be kept in a secure place? If so, where are those restrictions put in writing?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, with the leave of the House, anyone who has a weapon has to keep it in secure and safe premises. The actual wording of the Bill states that a member of a rifle club without holding a firearm certificate may have in his possession a firearm and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club or in connection with target practice. It is for the court to construe what is meant by,
"when engaged as a member of the club".
It may be that if one moves from one place to another, one has to transport the weapons. That would he a case when a person would have them when he is,
"engaged as a member of the club".
Quite clearly, if he had the weapons in his house for a month that would not be when he was engaged as a member of the club.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I have had the reply which I more or less expected from my noble friend. One point he raised which he has mentioned to me before in conversation is the question of taking away the rifle and ammunition. I have never mentioned that. I have only referred to a person having it in his possession on a range. I would never advise a person that he was entitled to take a rifle or ammunition home with him but only to have it in his possession on the range for the purposes of using it then and there.
It is possible that this case may be covered by Clause 16, but I am open to advice on that. It all depends on what is meant by target practice. Does that or does that not cover competition? I feel that the Bill ought to be specific in that respect because very often we have heard it said that we should leave it to the courts to decide what is this and what is that. I believe that the courts are thoroughly fed up with having to decide grey areas such as this which are not specifically spelt out in legislation.
Your Lordships will probably remember a well-known judgment by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, on some particularly knotty point of law when he talked of clambering through the undergrowth of the complexities of legislation. However, I cannot remember what that case was. As regards the point made by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway about old boys and girls, I believe that is covered by the well-known principle that man embraces woman. However, I do not believe that there is much point in pursuing this any further and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 [Borrowed rifles on private premises]:
Lord Monson Lord Monson moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 9, line 1, leave out ("seventeen") and insert ("fourteen").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 7 I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 8, 9, 10 and 20, all of which are consequential on Amendment No. 7.
These are heavily modified versions of' an amendment moved on Report, which was withdrawn on the understanding that it would be brought hack at this stage in a compromise form which we hoped would be more acceptable to the Government. As the Bill is drafted at present, we are faced with a Kafkaesque situation in which boys or girls of 14, 15 or 16 will not be able to fire a single experimental shot from their parents' .22 rifle or, in very occasional circumstances, a more powerful rifle on their parents' land—private land, let it be noted—without first obtaining a full firearms certificate for three years.
This confronts chief constables with the near necessity—not the obligation but in practical terms the near necessity—to grant firearms licences to people who have never fired a gun in their lives and who may find, once they have fired four or five shots, that they have no aptitude or inclination whatever for shooting. That cannot be in the public interest and it cannot be welcome to those who want tighter controls over the issue of firearms licences.
What would be the reaction of a parent who has just paid out £33 for a firearms licence for a 14 or 15 year-old, only to be confronted with a son or daughter who complains that they do not really enjoy shooting nearly as much as they thought they would and, what is more, do not think that they have any aptitude for it? The reaction is likely to be, "Now look here, I have paid out good money for this licence. You can jolly well stick to your shooting until you get the hang of it and until you learn to like it". I am sure your Lordships will agree that that is hardly in the best interests of the public.
Of course it may be the case—I have not been able to ascertain this—that this state of affairs has its genesis not in this Bill but in legislation introduced by a Labour Government 20 years ago. However, even if that were so surely it is now the right moment to put matters right.
As your Lordships will notice, the amendment provides that the rifle in question can only be used in the presence of a responsible adult, and not an adult of 18 but an adult of 21. I should have been more than happy to stipulate an age limit of 25 or 30 had I been able to find any precedent in legislation for imposing such a relatively high age limit. However, with the limited resources at my disposal I was not able to do so, and Third Reading does not seem to be the right stage at which to experiment; hence the age limit of 21.
Your Lordships will also note that, if this amendment is agreed to, the age of 17 will still be the minimum age at which ammunition can he purchased. I am sure your Lordships will agree that that is right and proper. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I have some sympathy with these amendments, as I indicated on Report. Of course, they were then in a slightly different form and were moved by one of my noble friends.
I instanced then, and I hope I may be forgiven for briefly repeating it, the case of two boys each aged, say, 15, who are in the combined cadet force at their school where they learn to shoot with rifles as members of the cadet force. We assume that one of them is invited by the parents of the other to stay with his friend for the Easter holidays. Towards the end of the holidays, especially if it is a late Easter, rook shooting will have started. It seems to me absurd that the visiting boy should not—at least under proper supervision as envisaged by the noble Lord, Lord Monson—be able to borrow a rifle and shoot rooks on that occasion.
Perhaps I may interpolate at this point that Hansard accused me of wanting them to shoot starlings as well. I have never heard of such a thing and I do not know where Hansard got that unless a noble Lord added "and starlings". That has now been corrected in Hansard. However, subject to what my noble friend may say, I have a great deal of sympathy with these amendments.
Viscount Mountgarret: My Lords, I too support this amendment. There is an anomaly in that, as I understand it, persons aged 17 and above may borrow a rifle on private premises and yet we say that anybody under the age of 17 may not, although it is a schoolboy, because he has to own a firearms certificate. That seems to me to be slightly heavy-handed. I understand the concern of my noble friend on the Front Bench, but I hope that he has had an opportunity of reconsidering the position. In principle, I believe that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Monson, has a great deal to be considered.
Earl Peel: My Lords, I too support this amendment. There has been a degree of confusion, certainly among noble Lords involved with this Bill. We were very much under the impression that when the estate rifle clause, which most of us welcomed in principle, was introduced by my noble friend on Report, it was for all age groups.
I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Mountgarret. It is ridiculous that people aged between 14 and 17—the precise age at which they will be learning to shoot—should have to apply for a firearms permit. They will be under instruction during that stage and as the noble Lord, Lord Monson, said, they may decide that they do not want to pursue the sport; in which case they will not need to apply for a firearms permit.
I appreciate that a young person can take part in target shooting as a member of a Home Office approved club without holding a certificate. I believe that my noble friend the Minister considers that to be the way in which a young person should learn target shooting. However, it is completely different from the actual process of learning to shoot and to stalk a stag on the hill. It is a completely different process and therefore not appropriate. It is illogical that one can
28
allow someone under the age of 17 to shoot at a club without holding a permit but not on a hill in practice.
The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Monson, is sensible and I hope that my noble friend will give it careful consideration.
4.15 p.m.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I should like to add just one comment to those of the noble Earl, Lord Peel. Not everyone lives near enough to a club to be able to be a member and learn to shoot in that way.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I add my support to this amendment. The present law under the 1968 Act, and now this Bill, can only be described as a nasty sticky mess. The law is full of anomalies and the more that can be done to tidy it up the better.
The law concerning shotguns and people under the age of 17 is already covered in the 1968 Act, Sections 22 and 23, and it seems only sensible that the Bill should be brought into line with that Act as regards firearms.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I have but one short point to make. On the premise that one has a vast tract of land for grouse shooting, or something of that nature, the logic is flawless. This clause refers to,
"the occupier of private premises".
Private premises can be very small and anywhere. The clause as it stands is governed by "private premises". Flawless logic can, as has been pointed out, lead to absurdity. One must be absolutely certain as to the basis on which the whole clause is cast, which is,
"the occupier of private premises".
Lord Renton: My Lords, will my noble friend allow me to intervene on the point he has just made? He is suggesting that the Bill should go in for a large amount of defining detail as to the kind of premises to which the clause should refer. Would that not be an excess of zeal on our part as legislators? Is it not better that the clause should be drafted as it is, in the form of "private premises"?
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, am I allowed to reply?
A noble Lord: Yes; the noble Lord intervened.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, the suggestion put forward by my noble friend Lord Renton is not my suggestion at all and never has been. All that I had intended to make clear, which I probably did not, was that far from any redefinition of the Bill, the Bill as it stands is perfectly adequate. However, our discussions must surely take place on the basis of the clause as drafted, subject to an amendment as to private premises. No one has suggested otherwise, least of all myself.
Viscount Mountgarret: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene as my noble friend Lord Campbell of

29
Alloway has raised a point concerning private premises. If the chief constable has authorised the use of a firearm on private premises presumably he is satisfied as to what are those private premises and that they appertain to the users of the firearms. Therefore, my noble friend must be slightly begging the question on that.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, are we not getting into bad habits? This is the Third Reading of the Bill and we are now being asked to tidy up a position which exists under existing law. If that had to be done at all it should have been done at the Committee stage. Noble Lords are now making about five speeches on every amendment and trusting to the good will of the House to let them do so.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, I am in total agreement with the noble and learned Lord. This is a most inappropriate moment to start such a discussion. This is the Third Reading of the Bill and we appear to be having another Committee stage. Apart from that, I confess that I have no sympathy whatever with this amendment.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, I too support the noble and learned Lord and also what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. Certain noble Lords have put forward the view that boys from public school on their hols going to private estates for shooting is a fine thing. However, one must also consider the 14 year-old boys where there is no private estate. It would be wrong to allow them to use guns.
Baroness Phillips: My Lords, I shall make only one short speech, in deference to the noble and learned Lord. It is obscene to be discussing this subject in the week when a 14 year-old boy borrowed his father's car and killed four people. If a 14 year-old borrows a gun on one set of private premises but moves to another, presumably he will have the gun on the journey. The age of 17 is quite young enough. Therefore we must watch very carefully that we do not change the law so that there are people of early age having all the facilities which in some cases they cannot handle.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, perhaps I may make one observation. To me the most important matter here is to teach people how to handle guns with safety, particularly shotguns. I believe that people at the age of 12, 13 or 14 are much more amenable to learning than they are at the age of 17 or 18. Nothing is more frightening than seeing someone who has never learnt how to handle a gun with safety. I think that this matter should be covered, perhaps not in this clause but during the course of the Bill.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I concur with what my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham said and also with the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich. I believe that we are in great danger of turning this into another Committee stage. My noble and learned friend has pointed out that a number of people have spoken more than once and that is wrong. I agree with him. Having said that, I have been invited to
30
speak on about three occasions on one amendment, notably by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, who, in his charming way has sort of sucked me up off my seat and made me contravene the rubs of procedure of your Lordship's House. I shall try to contain myself and I know that the noble Lord will contain himself.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, the noble Earl could not sufficiently contain himself to prevent him making the remark that the amendments we have presented and the speech that I tried to make upon them were appropriate Third Reading speeches. What the noble and learned Lord complained about was something quite different.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, my noble and learned friend was complaining about people getting on their feet more than once. I have got to my feet more than once and I apologise. I shall try to rise only once as regards this amendment.
We had a very similar amendment to this at the Report stage. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Monson, has now an added safeguard that where the borrower of an estate rifle is between the ages of 14 and 17, the occupier of the premises or his servant must be aged 21 or over. I do not believe that this additional point does anything to meet the objections to lowering the age limit that I mentioned on Report. My noble friend Lord Peel said that he thought this was a very logical amendment and he hoped that we would look sympathetically at it. We introduced the provision as regards estate rifles specifically because a number of my noble friends said that they were in difficulties when they had visitors—not necessarily but usually from other countries—who did not have a firearms certificate and so could not use an estate rifle. We tried to provide a means of dealing with that problem and we produced the amendment.
Now my noble friends say, "Ah, yes but 17 years of age is too high; we want the age reduced to 14". I believe that the concession we have made which allows people who are over the age of 17, and therefore presumably are reasonably responsible, to come on to an estate and use an estate rifle without a certificate is reasonable. To lower that age to 14 so that one can bring in almost any young person from a foreign country or from America of the age of 14 or 15 and then set him up on an estate without a licence, would be going too far.
My noble friend Lord Selkirk is absolutely right in saying that we must teach people to handle shotguns with safety. However, this particular amendment has nothing to do with shotguns; it is to do with rifles. Under the law there are many ways in which people can be quite properly taught to use shotguns with safety.
This amendment, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Monson, should not have anything to do with training young people how to use firearms. It is an amendment to a concession which allows people to have folk on their estates who can use the estate rifles and who are of a certain maturity. My noble friend Lord Renton gave the pathetic case—and I mean that in the nicest possible way—the sympathetic case, of a

31
young boy aged 15 who wants to shoot rooks on someone else's estate. He can do that but he has to have a certificate. I do not believe that is a good enough argument to say that from now on anyone from the age of 14 upwards can borrow an estate rifle.
If people wish to be taught how to use a rifle they can be taught perfectly reasonably at a gun club. The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun of Abernethy, objected to that because people are not necessarily near a gun club. In that case they may be taught on their own premises, provided that they have a firearms certificate. I believe that it would be wrong to have this lower age on the basis that it would help young people to learn how to use rifles. It has nothing to do with that. It is to permit people of a reasonable age to use estate rifles for the purpose of shooting, and it has nothing to do with teaching. I hope therefore that your Lordships will not agree to the amendment.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I thank all the noble Lords who have supported me on this amendment. In particular the noble Viscount, Lord Mountgarret, answered more than adequately the arguments raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, and the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. If the estate in question is a small back garden about a quarter of the size of this Chamber, it is highly unlikely that the chief constable would have given the parents a firearms licence in the first place. As regards the propriety of introducing such a provision at this stage, I said specifically at Report stage that we would come back with a modified amendment at Third Reading in order to try to get the agreement of the Government.
The noble Earl has been so reasonable and accommodating during the passage of this Bill in accepting amendments for which a logical and commonsense case can be made, that his rejection of this amendment comes as a particular disappointment. One of my worries is that if the clause stays as it is, its essentially ridiculous, illogical and unworkable nature will bring the law into contempt. That is a situation devoutly to be discouraged. If the House were to agree to these amendments and to send them back to another place, there would be three choices of action. The other place could accept the amendments or reject them, or this House could be asked not to insist upon the original amendments but, in substitution to accept modifications devised by the other place.
I believe that the other place should be allowed the chance to look at these amendments, because I still maintain that the arguments I have advanced have not been adequately answered. Therefore I should like to test the opinion of the House.
4.28 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 7) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 16: Not-Contents, 166.

DIVISION NO. 2

CONTENTS

Birdwood, L.

Dulverton, L.

Burton, L.

Goschen, V.

32

Hayter, L.

Northesk, E.

Manton, L.

Peel, E. [Teller.]

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Portsmouth, E.

Renton, L.

Monson, L. [Teller.]

Swansea, L.

Moran, L.

Torphichen, L.

Mountgarret, V.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addington, L.

Hanworth, V.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Alexander of Weedon, L.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Allerton, L.

Harvington, L.

Ampthill, L.

Henderson of Brompton, L.

Ardwick, L.

Hesketh, L.

Arran, E.

Hives, L.

Attlee, E.

Holderness, L.

Auckland, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Aylestone, L.

Hood, V.

Banks, L.

Hooper, B.

Barnett, L.

Hooson, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Belstead, L.

Hughes, L.

Bessborough, E.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Birk, B.

Jay, L.

Blease, L.

Jeger, B.

Blyth, L.

Jessel, L.

Bonham-Carter, L.

Johnston of Rockport, L.

Borthwick, L.

Kaberry of Adel, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Brookeborough, V.

Leatherland, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B

Bruce of Donington, L.

Lockwood, B.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Long, V.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Longford, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Lonsdale, E.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Lyell, L.

Carnock, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Cathcart, E.

Mackie of Benshie, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.

Mar, C.

Constantine of Stanmore, L.

Margadale, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Marley, L.

Craigavon, V.

Marsh, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Masham of Ilton, B.

David, B.

Mason of Barnsley, L.

Davidson, V. [Teller.]

Milverton, L.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Mishcon, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Molloy, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Mostyn, L.

Dormand of Easington, L.

Mottistone, L.

Dundee, E.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Mulley, L.

Elles, B.

Munster, E.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Ennals, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Erne, E.

Ogmore, L.

Erroll of Hale, L.

Orkney, E.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Faithfull, B.

Oxfuird, V.

Fanshawe of Richmond, L.

Pender, L.

Ferrers, E.

Peston, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Phillips, B.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Gallacher, L.

Platt of Writtle, B.

Galpern, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Portland, D.

Gladwyn, L.

Prys-Davies, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Rathcreedan, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Reigate, L.

Grey, E.

Renwick, L.

Gridley, L.

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Rodney, L.

Haddington, E.

Rugby, L.

Haig, E.

St. Davids, V.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Seear, B.

Selkirk, E.

Halsbury, E.

Serota, B.

33

Shannon, E.

Thomas of Gwydir, L.

Shepherd, L.

Tordoff, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Slim, V.

Trevor, L.

Somers, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Stallard, L.

Underhill, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Walston, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Whitelaw, V.

Strathspey, L.

Willis, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Wise, L.

Terrington, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.37 p.m.
[Amendments Nos. 8, 9 and 10 not moved.]
Viscount Mountgarret Viscount Mountgarret moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 9, line 20, at end insert—
(";and
(c) The borrower is in possession of written authority of the owner of the borrowed firearm to purchase or acquire ammunition in accordance with paragraphs (a) and (b) above, such written authority to be valid for only one occasion and to be retained by the provider of such ammunition.").
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I wonder, after that last vote, whether the bottom has not been knocked out of the barrel to some extent. But I speak in the hope of getting rid of an anomaly, as I see it. I spoke to this point at Report stage. As the Bill now stands, a person without a firearms certificate can purchase or acquire ammunition. Yet under the relevant clause of the principal Act, as I said on Report stage, a person is not permitted to purchase or acquire such ammunition.
My noble friend on the Front Bench said: this is perfectly ridiculous because if you are allowed to borrow a weapon it is rather absurd if you cannot borrow or acquire some ammunition to put into that weapon. I agree with that point. All I am trying to do by virtue of this amendment, having regard to Clause 5 of the Bill before your Lordships, which relates to shotguns and cartridges, is merely to say: all right; we accept the point that the Government wish to make on this, but surely we are going to have a situation whereby the authority of the owner is valid for borrowing or acquiring rifle ammunition for a period of time until that authority lapses. Otherwise one could have a situation in which it was perfectly possible for a person not in possession of a firearm certificate to acquire ammunition. I think it is agreed across the board that rifles are a fairly dangerous form of weapon. We seek here to curtail, up to a reasonable point, the ease with which ammunition may be acquired. That is the purport of the amendment. I shall be most interested to hear what my noble friend has to say on the matter. I beg to move.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Mountgarret is, as always, punctilious over his requirements to ensure that people do not have ammunition when they should not. During our debate on the clause on Report, my noble friend expressed his concern at the prospect of the acquisition and possession of ammunition by people who do not hold firearms certificates under the terms of the clause. He sought to delete subsection (2) and
34
I explained why we found that unacceptable. The amendment he has moved today represents, if I may put it this way, a slightly more refined expression of the same concern.
I am sorry to have to tell my noble friend yet again that I find myself in the position of not being able to accede to his request. My noble friend said that at the last stage of the Bill's proceedings I had said that you cannot have a weapon without having any ammunition—and my noble friend said that he quite agreed. In the majority of cases it will be the lender of the rifle who will sell or otherwise provide the ammunition to the borrower. It would obviously be absurd to require the lender, as my noble friend's amendment would suggest, to provide himself with a written authority from himself in order to do so.
Where someone other than the lender is supplying ammunition—say, the local gun dealer—the answer is for him to sell it to the certificate holder, who can then supply the borrower. But if for some reason that is not possible and ammunition is sold direct to the borrower, then the onus must be on the shopkeeper to satisfy himself that the borrower is exempt from the requirement to hold a certificate. That seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable state of affairs and I hope that my noble friend will, after consideration, think that it is so.
Viscount Mountgarret: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, which is rather as I expected it would be. Nevertheless, I tested the water. I dipped my toe into it and I found it somewhat cool. The Government have had plenty of opportunity to consider this aspect. If they do not wish to take it on board, I respect their view. Therefore, if they are happy I for one am absolutely happy.
With the leave of the House, perhaps I may apologise to my noble friend for having slightly broken the rules and the convention of the House on a previous amendment by speaking twice. However, I was somewhat provoked, if I may say so, by my noble and learned friend who interjected. Further, as your Lordships will be delighted to know, I am unlikely to speak again on the Bill. I am unlikely to be present for the proceedings on the Motion that the Bill do now pass.
I should like to say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that I am extremely grateful to him for the amount of time that he has spent and the courtesy which he has shown to me on many matters about which I and many of my noble friends have been concerned. I am most grateful to him, and I am sorry if that in effect is going outside the procedures of the House. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 12 not moved.].
4.45 p.m.
Clause 22 [Firearms consultative committee]:
Lord Mishcon Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 12, line 19, after ("above") insert (" and the regulation of the possession of and transactions relating to firearms and ammunition").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall make only a short speech on the amendment in order to receive

35
the utmost clarification, because I think that the House would wish it so. The matter was raised on Report and quite properly arises again on Third Reading because the Minister, after saying that he had listened to what had been said on the amendment, was kind enough to say that he would consider the matter further and I would hear from him before Third Reading, if he possibly could do so. Indeed, he did so and, as I have said before, with his usual courtesy. I must now add to that: with his usual promptitude. I heard from him by letter from which I have permission to quote.
However, perhaps it would be more sensible, before I quote from the letter, to state the object of the amendment. The object is to see that the consultative committee has the clear duty, and certainly the power, to do what the Act in its purpose clause says that it is there to do: namely:
"to make further provision for regulating the possession of, and transactions relating to firearms and ammunition".
That is what I wanted the consultative committee to do and that is what I believe the Bill was meant to allow it to do. However, there is a difference of opinion between the Minister—whose opinion I obviously respect—and myself as to whether in fact the Bill enables the consultative committee to make recommendations for the,
"further provision for regulating the possession of, and transactions relating to, firearms and ammunition".
If noble Lords will kindly look at Clause 22 of the Bill, in its present state, they will see that under subsection (1) the experience of the personnel to be appointed to the consultative committee is dealt with. They are to have,
"knowledge and experience of one or more of the following matters".
The only paragraph at which we need to look for these purposes is (c), which reads:
"the administration or enforcement of the provisions of the principal Act, the Firearms Act 1982 and this Act".
And if noble Lords then look at subsection (5) it will be seen that it no longer deals with the experience which the committee is required to have, but with its functions.
Under subsection (5)(a) the function is:
"to keep under review the working of the provisions mentioned in subsection (1)(c)".
A reference back shows that again to be,
"the administration or enforcement of the provisions of the … Act"
as they are then. Paragraph (b) states:
"to make proposals for amending those provisions if it thinks fit".
I concede at once that you could interpret the words "those provisions" as meaning any of the provisions contained in the principal Act, the Firearms Act 1982, and this Act; or you could be rather muddled by that wording and think that those provisions are the working provisions as mentioned in Clause 22(1)(c) relating to the administration or enforcement. In other words, all you can do as a function is to look at amendments to the way of administering or enforcing provisions of the principal Act, the Firearms Act 1982 and this Act; or only to amending those provisions but not indeed to adding
36
to those provisions in the way I sought to do when I quoted the very object of the Act; namely:
"to make further provision for regulating the possession of, and transactions relating to, firearms and ammunition".
I wanted to put forward an amendment, as I have done, quoting those words, in order to make the position abundantly clear.
I now turn to the Minister's letter, which says:
"You pointed out that subsection 22(1)(c) was limited to the administration and enforcement of the legislation. This is, of course, quite correct, but subsection 22(5) refers back, not to the provisions of subsection (1)(c), but to the provisions which are mentioned in that part of the clause—namely 'the principal Act, the Firearms Act 1982 and this Act'. So I think that your anxiety is covered".
I at once concede that there is an argument for that interpretation of the Bill. The Minister obviously shares my anxiety that the consultative committee should have the power to make recommendations to deal generally with:
"the regulation of the possession of and transactions relating to firearms and ammunition:
The sole point is whether that function of the committee is clearly there on the wording or whether it should be spelt out. There is no divergence between the Minister and myself, as I understand it, on the principle behind the amendment. I merely ask for that clarity. I hope therefore that, on reconsideration, the Minister will think that, if we insert those words, we have it without any doubt. I should have thought it was sensible so to do. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: My Lords, on this occasion I earnestly hope that my noble friend will not accept the amendments. First, I do not consider that they are necessary because the functions are already widely described; and, secondly, I am afraid that the amendments, especially Amendment No. 13, may cause confusion. The phrase:
"transactions relating to firearms and ammunition"
invokes numerous provisions of the law—the Sale of Goods Act, the Consumer Protection Act, trademarks and all kinds of things. I do not think that the amendment would do other than cause doubts in the mind of the consultative committee as to where its powers were limited and where its duties lay. Apart from that point, I do not think the amendment is necessary because if we take the expression:
"the regulation of the possession and transactions relating to firearms and ammunition",
so far as I can remember the whole of the present law relating to the regulation of the possession of firearms and ammunition is contained in the principal Act, the 1982 Act and this Act. If it is necessary to amend that branch of the law or to make recommendations for it, then subsection (1)(b) would enable the consultative committee to do just that. I hope that my noble friend will not make the Bill more detailed and confusing by accepting the amendments.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Renton for that intervention, in contrast to the one on the previous amendment where I did not find him in such happy heart as he now is. He referred to the fact that if the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, were to be included, it would include reference to the Sale of

37
Goods Act, the Consumer Protection Acts and so forth.
As the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, said, there is nothing between what he wants and what we seek to do. He feels that what is contained in the Bill will not do what he wants it to do. I shall try, with a modicum of despair, to explain to him that I believe that his concerns are met. Clause 22(5)(a) provides that it will be the committee's function:
"to keep under review the working of the provisions mentioned in subsection (1)(c)"
and then at subparagraph (c):
"to advise the Secretary of State on any other matter relating to those provisions".
The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, would like to add to those provisions.
Clause 22(1)(c) relates to the administration and enforcement of the provisions of the principal Act. The committee may advise the Secretary of State, in the words of subsection (5)(c):
"on any other matter relating to those provisions".
The provisions of Clause 22(1)(c) relate to the principal Act, the Firearms Act 1982 and this Act. So the committee can refer anything to the Secretary of State relating to those provisions and it can make proposals to amend those provisions. Amending must include adding to. So the noble Lord has conveniently removed a proportion of the speech that I had considered making because he had quoted that part of my letter which I was also going to quote. He did so with total fairness.
I am sure that the noble Lord realises that the committee may advise the Secretary of State on the principal Act, the Firearms Act 1982 and this Act. It can advise the Secretary of State on how it can be improved and how it might be added to. I hope, to repeat my words, that the noble Lord's anxiety is covered.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, in view of the Minister's clear statement as to the intention of the clause—he and I of course appreciate that his speech, although welcome to the House, is not one that can be quoted when trying to interpret the Act in the courts of law—and the fact that the advice he has received is that the purpose of what I was trying to do is already covered (I was merely trying to act out of abundant caution), I am not prepared to divide the House on Third Reading.
I hope that the time will come when it will be possible to quote ministerial speeches when trying to interpret an Act in a court of law. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 14, 15 and 16 not moved.]
Lord Swansea Lord Swansea moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 12, line 33, leave out ("unless") and insert ("or at the end of any later period if").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment relates to the consultative committee and Clause 22(8). A subsequent government may not give the committee anything to do. It may lapse into atrophy and perhaps wither on the vine because it has no
38
business to transact. As it stands, the subsection allows the committee to cease to exist at the end of five years. The effect of the amendment is to provide that, if the Secretary of State believes it to be desirable that the committee should cease to exist, he must lay an order to that effect. The amendment goes with Amendment No. 18. There is grave concern in shooting circles that, as drafted, the Bill might allow that to happen one day. I beg to move.
Lord Monson: My Lords, perhaps I may briefly add my plea to the Government to accept this amendment. All of us, whatever our widely varying views on the Bill as a whole, want the committee to succeed and stay in business for as long as necessary. This amendment would not fetter a future Secretary of State in any way at all. It simply ensures that, if the committee is to be wound up, it happens as a result of a conscious, positive decision by the government of the day and not by inertia or oversight.
5 p.m.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I understand the fears of my noble friend Lord Swansea, but I think that they are unfounded. We have made it perfectly clear that we see the committee as having a vital role to play. But clearly it is right that there should be regular scrutiny of the committee's effectiveness in ensuring that it executes its role properly, not least because its activities will be financed by the taxpayer. It seems right that the Home Secretary who, after all, will be advised by the committee, is the person best placed to make a judgment about its effectiveness.
My noble friend Lord Swansea said that he did not want the committee to wither on the vine. I do not think that it will wither on the vine. If there is no reason for it to continue after five years then it will not do so. If it does continue up to five years, then my right honourable friend will know whether or not it is being successful.
If noble Lords look closely at the wording of my noble friend's amendment, they will see that the committee will definitely come to an end either at the end of five years or at some time later. The Secretary of State has no other power than to introduce an order to bring it to an end. Under our proposals, the committee will not necessarily come to an end after five years; it can be kept on for further periods of up to three years at a time. Although this is dependent upon the Secretary of State making an order, it must be preferable to my noble friend's proposal under which the committee would definitely come to an end.
I think that when the noble Lord, Lord Monson, reads this he will see that that is the effect of my noble friend's amendment. If my noble friend is concerned that some wayward Secretary of State—and he was kind enough to say that it would not be my present right honourable friend—would arbitrarily bring the committee to an end after five years, I am bound to tell him that his amendment would not help to preserve it. Under his amendment the Home Secretary could still end the life of the committee at the end of five years, if he felt it appropriate, or he could let it go on till a later time. But he would have the power to end it, and if he wanted to end it after

39
five years then he could still do so. I can assure my noble friend that my right honourable friend takes the matter of this committee very seriously indeed. He intends to make use of it. There is no intention to end its life arbitrarily, but there must clearly be provision to end it if events prove, for one reason or another, that it has not been of value. I do not think that that is very likely to happen but the proviso must be there.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he has said. I think perhaps he has not fully taken into account the meaning of Amendments Nos. 17 and 18, read together. If both those amendments are accepted, the subsection will have the effect which I mentioned earlier. Nevertheless, I do not intend to pursue the amendment further and beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 18 not moved.]
Lord Swansea Lord Swansea moved Amendment No. 19:
Page 12, line 36, at end insert—
("(9) This section shall come into force not later than six months after the day appointed by the Secretary of State for section 1 of this Act.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, again the reference is to the consultative committee. My colleagues and I think it necessary that the consultative committee should come into existence as early as possible after this Bill becomes law. Under Clause 27 of the Bill they found that certain parts of the Act may come into force at different periods, as prescribed by the Secretary of State.
The object of my amendment is to ensure that this clause comes into force in a reasonable time, say six months after the day appointed for Section 1 of the Act to come into operation. I think that is a reasonable period and should like to see the consultative committee up and running as soon as it can conveniently be arranged. I beg to move.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, my noble friend's concern is to ensure that there is not an unreasonable delay in the appointment of members of the consultative committee and that it can get down to work as soon as possible. I am at one with my noble friend over that. The committee has a vital role to play and the sooner it gets going, the better. But I do not think it is necessary to put this sort of prescription on the face of the Bill.
Under Clause 27, the provisions of the Bill are to come into force on such a day as the Secretary of State appoints, by means of an order made by statutory instrument. Different commencement days may be appointed for different provisions or different purposes. I am bound to tell my noble friend that it is our intention that both Clause 1, to which this amendment refers, and Clause 22, at which this amendment is aimed, will be included in the first commencement order and that will come into force very early in the new year. I hope that my noble friend will be reassured by what I have said and will therefore feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I am grateful once more to my noble friend for what he has said. If the relevant part of this Bill comes into effect at an early stage after the passing of the Bill, I shall be perfectly satisfied and so, I hope, will my noble friends and colleagues. On that understanding, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 23 [Minor and consequential amendments and repeals]:
[Amendment No. 20 not moved.]
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I beg to move, That the Bill do now pass.
I do not think that anyone who has sat through the proceedings on this Bill, still less who has been involved with them, could say anything other than that it has been a controversial Bill. By being controversial, it has upset and drawn into conflict many people who are law-abiding citizens. Behind it all has been the spectre of Hungerford and the tragedy and anxiety which that caused.
However, Hungerford was not the cause of the Bill. It was only the catalyst for it. It is 20 years since the last Firearms Act was brought on to the statute book and since then weapons, technology and practice have all changed. It was time to reappraise and readjust the law relating to firearms. Public security has been uppermost in our minds in doing this, In trying to frame the new law to safeguard the lives of the ordinary, law-abiding citizens, we have inevitably trodden on the toes of other ordinary, law-abiding citizens—the sportsmen. I do not deny that and I recognise that it is one of the controversies surrounding this Bill, However, as so often happens if one tightens the law to prevent its misuse, it is often the innocent who feel the tightest pinch.
I like to think that even if we have not managed to meet all the matters of concern which have been raised on the Bill from all sides of the House, no one can say that those interests have not been fully aired or that they have been overlooked. They have been given very full consideration.
I would like to thank all noble Lords who have contributed to our discussions on the Bill. There have been many angles to consider and noble Lords have—as is customary—put their views, in some cases very strongly held, with moderation and always with courtesy. For the one who has been responsible for trying to walk through the minefield, I have, if I may say so, found this most helpful.
Perhaps I might just pay tribute especially to my noble friend Lord Swansea. He has not had an easy task. He has represented the views of a formidable body of people—what has been graphically called the shooting lobby. They have been much affected and deeply concerned about the effect of the Bill, and they have lost no opportunity, via my noble friend and by other means, of letting us know. In all this, my noble friend has been always courteous and reasonable even if—frequently—he has, as it were, been unable to "travel down the same railway line" as the Government. I realise that my noble friend would have liked us to go further. I hope that at least he

41
appreciates why we felt unable to do so, and I hope that that applies also to other noble Lords, who might have wished that we could go further or in other directions.
But we have had some very constructive debates and very helpful contributions. I think—and I hope—that the House will agree that the Bill which we now send back to another place is a better Bill. Its central provisions remain unchanged. The prohibition on highly lethal self-loading rifles remains an essential public safety measure, and the tighter controls on shotguns will help to reduce their unlawful or irresponsible use. There will he greater accountability for firearm dealers, gun clubs and visitors to this country.
All this must be right, and I am sure that your Lordships will agree that these measures to strengthen the controls are essential. The case for strengthening the law has been growing for some time. If we had failed to act on that after Hungerford, then, frankly, public confidence in the gun-licensing system in this country would have disintegrated.
But the need for balance remained throughout the passage of the Bill. We have resisted substantial pressures to introduce much more stringent firearm controls. There have been many such pressures. In one opinion survey 70 per cent. of people declared themselves in favour of a ban on all private ownership of firearms. But we resisted that.
We have sought, through numerous detailed amendments to the Bill, to accommodate the particular interests of shooters if they made out a convincing case. What we have not been able to accept is that there is, or should be, an untrammelled right to hold arms.
The ownership and the possession of a gun remains a privilege. It must be subject to a licence and to control, because the gun is intrinsically an instrument of death. The protection of the public has to take priority. But a number of important changes have been made since the Bill arrived from another place. The terms of reference of the firearms consultative committee have been refined and extended to give it an even more important advisory role.
Provision has been made for the use of estate rifles, and amendments have been made to the visitor's permit scheme to make it more flexible and amenable to the needs of visiting sportsmen. Provision has also been made for the forfeiture of guns and ammunition following the revocation of a certificate where there are clear public safety requirements. And a number of technical amendments have been made, many of which have been in response to representations from shooting interests.
I am grateful to all those who have contributed to the process of improving this Bill. I should like to mention a point raised on Report by my noble friend Lord Balfour who sought to allow non-certificate holders to borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and to use it under the supervision of the occupier's servant. While I have had every sympathy with what my noble friend was seeking to achieve, I do not think that it is feasible to treat shotguns in the same way as estate rifles because, in the case of shotguns, there is no facility to impose
42
territorial restrictions on the lender. For that reason I am afraid that we were not able to meet his concern.
Many views and suggestions have been put forward. Many of your Lordships—as I knew, and as I feared, would be the case—have shown a considerable depth of knowledge on technical matters relating to firearms and to the shooting sports. And this, combined with your Lordships' usual concern to see that legislation goes on to the statute book which is clear, straightforward and sensible, has helped us to ensure that the Bill, which we are now sending back to another place, will form an effective and coherent contribution to the problem of firearms control. I am grateful for the considerable work which your Lordships have put into this Bill. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Earl Ferrers.)
5.15 p.m.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, there is no Minister who could have brought a firearms Bill before your Lordships' House with less aggression. Without any doubt at all, in the course of the passage of this Bill through the House, it has almost been a pleasure to be shot at in debate by the noble Earl.
It is right, when we are almost saying farewell—some of us say good passage, while others are not quite so enthusiastic—to this Bill, that we remember, as the noble Earl indicated, that it comes before us in the shadow of that tragic occasion of Hungerford when 16 of our fellow citizens were killed, all of them innocent bystanders. Fourteen—again innocent bystanders—were injured. It is right and proper that that tragic occurrence, which has been followed by another not quite so alarming but nevertheless still sad occurrence, should have prompted us by some kind of catalyst to bring a much needed Bill to legislate on firearms before Parliament.
We owe it to another section of the community, which has not often been mentioned in the course of this Bill—I am referring to the police—to ensure that it, too, is protected as much as possible against the improper possession and use of firearms. I am glad that some of the matters we have dealt with may enable the police to have a little more protection in the very dangerous work they carry out for the benefit of us all.
Having said that, I am regretful that we did not do more. It appeared not to be practicable to ensure that medical certificates were obtained from time to time. But at least we received an assurance from the Government—which I so much welcomed personally having made the suggestion earlier—that the application form should have a clear indication to the referee as regards the kind of considerations that he should have in mind before he signs a certificate. That consideration should include the proviso that, to the best of the referee's knowledge, information and belief, there is no good reason why the applicant should not receive a firearms certificate.
I am glad that the consultative committee has had its arms strengthened, as it were. It was a very wobbly affair when it came to your Lordships' House. And some of us said so on Second Reading. It now stands

43
a little more erect with a little more dignity and a little more ambulatory power than it did when the Bill came first to your Lordships' House from another place.
I could have wished that we had legislated for a code of practice. But the Government could not see their way clear to that being done through the consultative committee. I could have wished that compensation was fairer than it is under the Bill. I refer to the compensation to those who, quite legitimately, were in possession of firearms on one day and found that the firearms were prohibited the next day. The Government may well regret, in respect of future legislation which may come before Parliament, not necessarily on their own initiative, that they have created this precedent of unfair compensation when firearms are confiscated. Having said that, we tried our best: we did not succeed.
I come lastly to the point about mail order sales. From these Benches we moved an amendment after referring to the matter at Second Reading. We were unsuccessful in prohibiting the sale of weapons through mail order. The Government gave their reasons as to why they could not accept that series of amendments. I regret that they could not; but at least the matter was debated and we were able to hear the Government's reply, delivered with the Minister's usual courtesy.
The main principle of the Bill is one that has the support of those who sit on these Benches. Once more I should like to thank the Minister for the way in which he piloted the Bill through your Lordships' House.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I too should like to thank the noble Earl for the patience, good humour and courtesy with which he has considered—and in many cases refused to accept—the amendments which we have tried to make to this complicated little Bill. I should also like to thank him for the very welcome concessions that he has been able to make to meet our legitimate concerns, and particularly in relation to Clause 16 covering the estate rifle.
That this Bill leaves this House less of a "pig's breakfast" than it arrived is as much the doing of the noble Earl as it is ours. I for one am most grateful to him for what he has been able to do.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I too should like to thank my noble friend Lord Ferrers for the way in which he has conducted this Bill through the House. He has done so singlehanded. He has shown a great grasp of the detail and has found no difficulty in answering the points which the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, and others, have raised which have required at least a modicum of knowledge of the law. He did not seem to be handicapped in that area.
The Bill proceeds by way of contextual amendment of the 1968 Act. In my opinion that has been done well. It will eventually be in effect consolidated when printed in Statutes in Force. However, I believe that more than that is needed. Perhaps my noble friend will stake a claim—I think that that is what he would
44
have to do—for its consideration for consolidation in the full and proper way.
As the Minister said, it is a better Bill. In my opinion, the Government have conceded as much as they reasonably could. I am sure that law-abiding sportsmen will have no right to complain of provisions which will and should achieve greater safety for the public. The Bill will impose new obligations on those who have firearms, but I am confident that all concerned will respond to the will of Parliament by gladly observing the Bill's provisions. If they are in the know, they will do so all the more through the knowledge that the Bill has received consideration from all points of view.
Although I did not agree with him except on one matter, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, and others who disagreed with most of us have done a service by ensuring that matters which some people thought should be considered were considered. Now however, by a overwhelming opinion of your Lordships' House, the Bill has received support in general and in detail.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I hope that I shall not keep your Lordships long; I certainly have no intention of making a Second Reading speech. We now come to the final stage of what I describe as a sorry and unnecessary Bill. At the same time discussion has cut across party boundaries and led to a free exchange of comments and opinions across the Floor of the House—something at which your Lordships' House excels when it has the opportunity to do so.
The time which the Bill has taken to go through all its stages in both Houses of Parliament must indicate to the Government the great concern which it has caused among the legitimate users of firearms. This is a tremendously complex and technical subject. It is a minefield of technicalities. I suspect—as do some of my noble friends—that some of those technicalities were not fully appreciated by the Government when they framed the provisions of the Bill. One might say that the Government have invented solutions where no problem existed. They have moved the goalposts. The Bill is a knee-jerk reaction to an ill-informed outcry from the press and the public arising from the actions of one deranged person. Is that a suitable basis on which to launch a Bill such as this which will result in a whole class of legitimate shooters being put out of business?
The British Shooting Sports Council—of which I am the present chairman—offered consultation two days after the disaster at Hungerford. No action was taken and the offer of consultation was ignored. The Government went ahead and announced their intentions without any prior consultation with shooting interests. Plenty of consultation took place afterwards, but that had little or no effect on the Government. I regret to say that on certain points—what the Government call "pillars of policy"—they had closed minds.
It is hard to see why the Bill should be described as a balanced one. The only effect that it will have is to impose yet further restrictions on legitimate shooters who have at all times obeyed the law in force,

45
whatever it may be. The Bill will not stop the illegal importation of firearms; it will not stop armed crime; it will not prevent criminals from getting hold of firearms through underground channels for their nefarious purposes. It will only cause the alienation of a large number of law-abiding citizens of this country who have followed their recreation for many years without causing any problems, and without misuse of their firearms, apart from that one incident.
One further consequence of the Bill concerns the situation if, unhappily, there should at any time in the future be a state of national emergency. The charter of the National Rifle Association, for example, which was granted by Queen Victoria, states that the object of the association is: to promote marksmanship among the volunteer forces of the Crown. Until about 25 years ago all competition shooting was done with the military rifle of the day. Therefore at all times during that period there was a nucleus of trained marksmen who were experienced in the use of the Service rifle of the day and ready to form the nucleus of the Armed Forces of the Crown should the need arise.
That will now come to an end. There will be no nucleus of marksmen trained in the Service weapon of the day. What will happen if—which God forbid—there is ever a national emergency in the future? I tremble to think what might happen. The shooting public has always been perfectly willing to uphold the law as it stands and to assist the Government in fighting crime. It will do its best to make this legislation work. I hope that the consultative committee will succeed, especially in achieving greater uniformity of practice between different police forces in administering the law.
I am grateful to my noble friends who have supported me in their opposition to the Bill. Someone said something unkind earlier today about the gun lobby. As long as there is an anti-gun lobby it will be necessary to have a gun lobby. Your Lordships will agree that any section of the population which follows a certain recreation is entitled to make its views heard. I am especially grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench for his patience and great courtesy in dealing with the many points that have been raised. He has always given my suggestions and those of my noble friends full consideration. When he has not been able to accept our suggestions he has said so perfectly plainly and fairly. When he has been kind enough to agree with our suggestions, we have been grateful to him. I give him full marks for the way in which he has piloted the Bill through the House.
One question remains in my mind. I refer to the transitional provisions for putting certain clauses of the Bill into effect; for instance, the time allowed for the surrender of weapons which will become prohibited under Clause 1. We know that the Bill provides for certain clauses to come into effect when an order is laid by the Secretary of State. I hope that my noble friend will be able to tell us more about the time allowed for putting Clause 1 into effect. I should like to support the questions asked by my noble friend Lord Renton, of which I have already given notice to my noble friend, about the possibility of a consolidation Bill in the future. Two Acts are now in
46
force—the 1968 Act and the 1982 Act—and this Bill will shortly become law. It would be highly desirable if the Government could see their way to producing a consolidation Bill in due course. I am grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench for the way in which he has handled the Bill.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I should like first of all to take up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, about the bandying about of the disparaging phrase "shooting lobby". I for one have never spoken on behalf of any shooting lobby, whatever a shooting lobby may be; individual freedom lobby perhaps, but shooting lobby, no. Secondly, I should like to express my appreciation to the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, for accepting—after careful consideration, it goes without saying—some minor but important amendments. I thank him also for the courtesy and consideration with which he has piloted through this curate's egg of a Bill—a curate's egg, what is more, of which, in the opinion of many people inside and outside the House, the edible parts form an even smaller proportion then usual.
As the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, said in so many words, dramatic cases make bad law. One simple analogy, relating to that part of the Bill dealing with self-loading rifles, will suffice. It is as if there had been a particularly nasty road traffic accident in which a large number of people were killed. It involved an Aston Martin and a six cylinder BMW, both of which were, however, travelling at a mere 50 miles per hour at the time of the accident, less than 40 per cent. of their maximum speed. Following this horrific accident, the Government introduced a Bill to prevent the use and sale of all cars more powerful or more up to date than Morris Minors or Citroën Deux Chevaux. As it happens, both of those models were outstanding in their day but are hardly ideal for the 1980s or 1990s. It would be curious to encourage British motorists to switch to these models when the rest of western Europe is tolerating much more up to date and powerful machines, and when the Swiss and the Scandinavians are positively encouraging younger males thoroughly to familiarise themselves with them. I could say a lot more but I shall leave it at that.
Earl Peel: My Lords, I too should like to pay tribute to the way in which my noble friend has dealt with the Bill, not only on the Floor of the House but also in a private capacity. He has made himself available for discussion at any time of the day and I am extremely grateful for that.
The nub of the question is how the police will interpret the law. I do not think I am overstepping the mark by saying that their failure in interpreting the law caused the Hungerford crisis. We can legislate for ever and a day, but unless the police are prepared to come to terms with this basic factor we shall not solve crime involving weapons. I am specially sorry that the Government felt unable to accept the code of practice, which I firmly believe would have helped to narrow the parameters in which the police could have interpreted the law. Be that as it may, we must accept the decision of the House. That decision leaves the

47
memorandum of guidance as the most important advice available to the police on how they are to interpret the law. The many members of the shooting fraternity who have had their rights curtailed by the Bill—people who have not broken the law and have had to knuckle under to the fact that the Government thought in their wisdom that legislation should be brought forward—will be watching carefully how the police interpret the law. We must look for consistency, and it is through the memorandum of guidance that this will come about. I urge my noble friend to ensure that this will be made public, as he has promised, as quickly as possible and that proper consultation takes place with all those with an interest in these matters.
There are other aspects of the Bill with which I am disappointed. Having said that, I think that some form of legislation had to come about as a result of Hungerford. On balance, I do not think that the Bill we have before us is quite as bad as some of us might think.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, when he moved the Motion, That the Bill do now pass, the noble Earl referred to this as a controversial Bill. It has certainly been controversial in this House and it was controversial in the House of Commons. A few moments later he reminded us what was the state of public opinion on the matter. Public opinion is quite clear. It is solidly in favour of firm action in the aftermath of Hungerford. I ask those who have spoken this evening to consider what would have happened if in the aftermath of Hungerford the Home Secretary had said that he proposed to take no action in terms of the law. He would have been attacked on all sides for gross, uncaring negligence. In my view that is the reality.
Perhaps I may make it quite clear that, unlike most of those who have spoken this evening, it is my view, which I have expressed before, that, if anything, this Bill suffers from not going far enough. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, referred to one of those issues; namely, the question of medical certification. I believe the facts of the matter are quite clear: the man who was responsible for the murders at Hungerford was a grossly unstable individual. So was the youth in Walsall who a few weeks ago shot two young blacks and then killed himself.
It seems to me that one of the issues with which we have not dealt satisfactorily is the question of medically certifying that a person is in a proper state of mind to have a certificate. We know why the Government were unable to take action on this. They have had discussion with the British Medical Association, but I do not want to go over that ground again. However, I wish to make it clear that the Bill is weaker for not having a provision of this kind.
I am grateful to the noble Earl for the care and attention that he devoted to this matter. As he is aware, the police service is seriously concerned at the absence of any provision with regard to armour-piercing ammunition. Again, I do not wish to go over the ground. The difficulty was in agreeing to a satisfactory definition. I understand the genuine
48
problems there are in this respect, but I have a feeling that the first time a policeman is shot through his flak jacket we shall be able to agree pretty speedily to a proper definition of armour-piercing ammunition.
Following the meeting that the Association of Chief Police Officers, my noble friend Lord Knights and I had with the Minister we were assured that this was a matter that could be discussed in the consultative committee. It certainly can be. However, I hope that the Home Office will continue to consider this matter because it causes the gravest concern in the police service. As the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, said a few moments ago, it is perhaps desirable for this House, in considering—rightly in my view—the interests of sportsmen who wish to use firearms, also to consider the position of police officers who are constantly risking their lives when protecting the public of this country.
I wish to comment on what the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, said a few moments ago. It is, I believe, a gross overstatement to suggest, as he did, that the Government have been responsible for some form of knee-jerk reaction and that this Bill is "unnecessary". I believe that the Bill is clearly necessary. I believe that that is the overwhelming view of public opinion in this country. When it has been tested in this House there has been overwhelming support for the position of this Government on this legislation.
I join others in thanking the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, for his courtesy at all stages, the great assistance that he has given us, and the good humour that he has always displayed even in the most trying circumstances.
Lord Burton: My Lords, as one who has spent a lot of time during this Bill harassing him, perhaps I may also add my thanks to my noble friend on the Front Bench. I cannot add to the compliments that have already been paid him but I should like to add my name to them.
What worries me is that this Bill would have had very little, if any, effect on the events in Hungerford. It would not have stopped them happening. My noble friend Lord Peel mentioned the code of practice. This is the biggest gap that we have left in the Bill that is departing from this House. I think it is a great pity.
No one has mentioned the apparent success of the amnesty when enormous numbers of weapons were handed in. However, this can be looked at in two ways. I wonder what percentage of illegal weapons have been handed in. I do not think that the Government have appreciated the enormous number of illegally held weapons which are, and will still be, in this country and available to criminals. This Bill affects only those who are legally abiding by the law at the present time.
We have tried to amend the 1968 Act. It was not good legislation. We have tried to amend bad legislation instead of starting afresh. Therefore I should like to add my support to my noble friend Lord Swansea when he asked for a consolidation Bill which will perhaps bring this legislation—which is on a very technical subject—into some good order with the help of the consultative committee.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, I should also like to congratulate the Minister. It is my personal view that those amendments that were good were accepted; and those that were not failed.
5.45 p.m.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I should like to thank noble Lords for the kind words that they have been good enough to express about the Bill. I realise that it does not meet with the happy accord of everyone. However, I am deeply appreciative of those who have been kind enough to pass some comments about me.
When my noble friend Lord Renton said that I found no difficulty in answering the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon—I believe he said that I was not handicapped—I can only tell him that I was even more conscious than usual of my inadequacies when I dealt with the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, or, to put it more accurately, when he dealt with me. As usual he was sufficiently courteous not to make one realise one's inadequacies. For that I was grateful.
My noble friends Lord Renton, Lord Swansea and Lord Burton asked about the possibility of a consolidation Bill in due course. I accept what they have said about the desirability of consolidating all the existing firearms legislation within a single Act. We shall certainly be looking carefully at this once the Bill receives Royal Assent.
My noble friend Lord Swansea asked about the timescale for bringing some of these parts of the legislation into effect. It may be helpful if I explain briefly how we propose to use the provisions of the new legislation and explain its implementation. The clauses relating to the prohibition of specific weapons, de-activation, conversion, the buy-in scheme and the establishment of the firearms consultative committee, and some others, will be subject of the first commencement order bringing them into force. This will be early in the new year. Special arrangements will operate for about three months to enable existing owners of guns which are prohibited under the Bill to retain their weapons in order to apply for payments under this buy-in scheme, or, if they wish to retain them as de-activated weapons, to have the necessary work done.
A second commencement order, probably about three months later, will bring into force the remaining clauses, notably, the new shotgun provisions which come in Clauses 2, 3 and 4. There will therefore be plenty of time before then for people who wish to have their multi-capacity shotguns reduced to the maximum two-shot magazine capacity if they wish to continue to hold them on a shotgun certificate.
Transitional arrangements may also be necessary in respect of Clause 3(2) and Clause 4 which deal with the listing of shotguns on certificates and the notification of transfers of shotguns. It may be desirable to ensure that these provisions apply as and when existing shotgun certificates expire and new ones are issued. Transitional provisions may be required for this purpose.
By staggering the implementation of the procedures of the legislation, we shall greatly ease the introduction of the new controls not only for the
50
police, who will be responsible for their enforcement, but also for the shooting community.
I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, for his reference to the police again this evening. As he rightly said, they constantly risk their lives. If this Bill helps a little in that respect, then it will have accomplished quite a lot.
I respect the noble Lord's concern about armour-piercing ammunition. This matter has been drawn to my attention both inside this House and outside it. We shall certainly keep it under review. I realise that both he, the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, and some others wanted the Bill to go further in different directions. Some wanted it tighter; some of my noble friends wanted it to be what one might call looser. I was grateful to those of my noble friends behind me on the occasions when they were in agreement with my views. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, for all the stout support which he gave. And indeed I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, for the occasions when he found it appropriate to be in the same Lobby as myself. That was a happy position which I shall hope to see reflected in many Divisions in the future.
I am grateful to your Lordships for the care, trouble and effort that has been put into the Bill to make it better. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons with amendments.

Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1988
5.52 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th July be approved.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the main purpose of the order is to introduce provisions for homeless people broadly corresponding to those which apply in England and Wales and which are contained in Part III of the Housing Act 1985. The introduction of this legislation meets a commitment made by the Government following consideration of a report on homelessness by the Northern Ireland Assembly in 1985.
The order also develops the existing right to buy legislation and extends the Northern Ireland Housing Executive's powers to control houses in multiple occupation. In addition, it introduces provisions dealing with the sale of Housing Executive mortgages and provides statutory cover for the scheme for the purchase of evacuated dwellings and the first aid repairs scheme both of which are operated by the Housing Executive on a non-statutory basis.
The order has been subject to wide ranging consultation with interested bodies in Northern Ireland including the Northern Ireland Housing Council, district councils and voluntary organisations concerned with homelessness. Most of those who responded generally welcomed the proposed introduction of homelessness legislation

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although many felt that it should have provided more help for the homeless.
Your Lordships will know however that in the field of social assistance successive governments have followed a policy of broad parity with Great Britain. There would have to be some exceptional circumstances to justify extra parity treatment and in the case of homelessness in Northern Ireland no such circumstances exist. We have therefore felt it right to proceed with homelessness provisions for Northern Ireland which are modelled on the legislation which currently applies in Great Britain. These provisions are contained in Part II of the draft order.
Noble Lords may know that at present responsibility for the accommodation needs of the homeless is shared between the four area health and social services boards, which have discretionary powers under the Health and Personal Social Services Order 1972 to provide temporary accommodation for homeless people, and the Housing Executive, which has general powers to meet housing need under the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1981. The order before us replaces the discretionary powers of the boards with a duty on the Housing Executive to secure accommodation for vulnerable homeless people.
Although the area boards have generally been using their discretionary powers to provide accommodation for vulnerable homeless people, this order will bring the great benefit of ending this division of responsibility between the boards and the Housing Executive by placing the onus entirely on the executive for meeting all the accommodation needs of homeless people. This will enable assistance for the homeless to be provided in a more planned and co-ordinated way.
The problem of homelessness has attracted a good deal of publicity recently. Your Lordships will therefore be interested to know something of the scale of the problem in Northern Ireland. During 1987 there were some 2,200 awards of what we call A1 status under the Housing Executive's housing selection scheme on grounds of homelessness or threatened homelessness. About 75 per cent. of these applicants received an offer of accommodation within three months. In addition the area health and social services boards arranged or provided temporary accommodation for 316 families and 271 single people in 1986. I am afraid that the figures for 1987 are not yet available. As there are about half a million households in the Province these figures show that the problem is neither widespread nor intractable.
The new responsibility placed on the Housing Executive by this order will result in a number of new duties. The first and main duty will be to secure accommodation for a person who is both homeless and in priority need and who did not become homeless intentionally. The duty to those in priority need but who are intentionally homeless is to secure a temporary accommodation for them and to provide them with advice and assistance to enable them to find their own permanent accommodation.
For those who are in priority need and who are unintentionally threatened with homelessness, the executive must take steps to ensure that accommodation does not cease to be available for their occupation. The duty to all other people who are either homeless or threatened with homelessness is to provide them with appropriate advice and assistance.
In deciding on the level of assistance to be provided the Housing Executive will be obliged to make inquiries about each case and notify the applicant of its decision and the reason for it. The order also contains sanctions for those who use deception to receive assistance to which they are not entitled, a procedure for the safeguarding of property of certain homeless people and provisions for the funding of voluntary organisations concerned with homelessness.
The transfer of responsibility from the area boards to the executive will be accompanied by a transfer of funds, equivalent to the amount currently spent by the boards on their homelessness responsibilities. In addition to the resources transferred to it, the executive has requested additional funds to enable it to carry out its new duties. I can tell your Lordships that this request is being considered in the context of the current public expenditure survey.
I have briefly outlined the homelessness provisions contained in the order. Also, your Lordships will want to be aware of the importance the Government attach to the operation of the legislation. Arising from this the Housing Executive has been asked to draw up a code of practice and guidance setting out how it proposes to administer the legislation and how other agencies will be involved. Arrangements have also been made to hold a seminar at the end of November to enable interested bodies to discuss the proposed code and other related issues. These initiatives, we believe, will do much to dispel the concerns expressed by voluntary organisations and will help to develop good working relationships between all the organisations involved.
Part III of the order deals with a number of miscellaneous provisions. Articles 18 to 24 enact in Northern Ireland the enhancements in the right to buy provisions contained in the Housing and Planning Act, 1985. They increase the maximum discount allowable on the purchase of a flat to 70 per cent.; they reduce the period from five years to three years during which there is a liability to repay discount and extend to three years the period during which completion of a purchase may be deferred. Some noble Lords may be aware that the Housing Executive is already selling dwellings on these enhanced terms on a voluntary basis.
Articles 25 to 28 introduce amendments which are mostly of a technical nature to the Housing Order 1981. However it is, I think, worthwhile drawing the attention of the House to Article 28. This provision will add to the executive's powers to enforce notices it has served requiring execution of remedial works in houses of multiple occupation. We believe that that should help the executive to develop its programme of action to improve conditions in that sector of the housing market.
Articles 29 and 30 give statutory force to the scheme for the purchase of evacuated dwellings and the first-aid repair scheme, both of which are currently operated by the executive on a non-statutory basis.
Finally, Part IV, comprising Articles 31 and 32, is supplementary. It provides for a number of minor and consequential amendments and appeals which are always listed. On this occasion they appear in Schedules 2 and 3 to the order. The order introduces what I hope noble Lords will accept as being important new housing rights for people in Northern Ireland. I commend the order to your Lordships.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th July be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)
6 p.m.
Lord Prys-Davies: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for explaining the background to the order and for taking the House through its provisions. It brings us face to face with the need to serve the homeless in Northern Ireland. I believe that to be its overriding consideration, even though it contains other matters which we also welcome, particularly those in Part III.
We welcome the order, which for the first time in the history of Northern Ireland enshrines a statutory duty to provide accommodation for homeless people provided that they satisfy the three conditions contained in it; namely: they are homeless; they have a priority need for accommodation; and they are not intentionally homeless. Therefore, it is an important order and an important step in the right direction. However, we believe that the operation of some of its provisions will need to be constantly reviewed.
We are glad that the order places the new statutory duty to provide suitable accommodation for the homeless on a single authority instead of there being a split responsibility. We are pleased that that authority will be the Housing Executive. Those noble Lords who are familiar with the position in Northern Ireland know that the Housing Executive has the experience, knowledge and management skills to deploy the resources to provide the services which are required.
In addition, we are confident that the board, its members and officers will discharge the duty laid on it by the order with consideration and sensitivity. However, will the board be given the necessary additional allocation which it requires to fund the programme which the order will require? Regrettably, I must say that I am not so sure that the necessary allocation will be available. That is one of the major worries about the order.
Another major worry in the Province is that the list of homeless people who are recognised as having a priority need for accommodation—this refers to Article 5—does not include single, able-bodied persons without dependants. I reflect that their needs have been articulated by a large number of organisations in Northern Ireland. They include the Council for the Homeless; the Youth Homelessness Group; the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish
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Congress of Trade Unions; Shelter in Northern Ireland; and the Simon Community.
The Government appear to have taken the view that if the priority list were to be extended to include that group, members of such a group could too easily abuse the system. Allowing that there is a need for caution because of the risk of abuse, we suggest that the Government should have acknowledged that some members of the group could qualify for priority need. They could have done so fairly easily by inserting in Article 5 one or two matching provisions to be complied with. For example, could they not have included a single person who had satisfied the Housing Executive that he or she had been homeless for a continuous period of, say, six months?
Although we welcome the order, it appeals to many people in the Province that, by denying that kind of priority need, the Government may be walking away from their responsibility. In our view, it is no answer to say that the single, able-bodied person may well be accommodated, as so many are, by the general housing programme of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. That is so because one is not entitled by statute to be placed on the general housing programme.
Many of us regret that the order does not provide for an appeals machinery, at least in respect of the important Article 5. I have already acknowledged the fact that we have every confidence in the Housing Executive. Yet that executive is a human institution and therefore it can make mistakes. The Government have rejected an appeals procedure, arid in our view the arguments which they have deployed for rejecting such a procedure are not convincing.
We are told that it has been rejected because no appeal is allowed against the other management decisions of the Housing Executive. But we are not comparing like with like. We believe that a valid distinction can be drawn between a decision under Article 5, which relates to a basic statutory right, and the other management decisions of the Housing Executive. It is also said that an appeal machinery had to be rejected because it would be impractical to establish it. At least that argument has the virtue of novelty, but no more.
Finally, it is said that it must be rejected because in any event the aggrieved citizen can refer his complaint to the Commissioner for Complaints. But how long will it take to obtain the commissioner's decision? Where is the aggrieved party to be accommodated meanwhile? One wonders whether, at the end of the day, the commissioner can order the Housing Executive to reverse its decision.
There is one further criticism which has been levelled at the order. It is that, by virtue of Article 6, it excludes a person who has become homeless intentionally. We know from our experience in the rest of the UK that that is a difficult area. However, we note with satisfaction that Mr. Richard Needham, the Minister, has acknowledged that the operation of Article 6 will be kept under review.
I should now like to gravitate towards the voluntary organisations which have done so much in Northern Ireland to help homeless people. They have shouldered a substantial part of the burden. They

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have played a very important part in providing accommodation in their hostels for the homeless. Therefore, we welcome Article 15, which empowers the Housing Executive to give financial and other assistance to such organisations.
Perhaps the Minister will clarify one or two points. Must the financial contribution to be paid by the Housing Executive be of a capital nature to be applied by the voluntary body for a capital purpose, and a specific capital purpose, or will the Housing Executive be at liberty generally to top up the voluntary bodies' income? Again, will loans which can be advanced by the Housing Executive be free of interest and will they have to be guaranteed?
Finally, we are pleased that the Minister has confirmed that the Minister for the Environment in Northern Ireland is to hold a seminar on homelessness with the Housing Executive, the voluntary bodies and representatives of the health boards to discuss, as I understand it, the draft code of practice. However, we note that no provision has been made in the order for the issue of the code of practice and guidance. Nowhere have I seen reference to the code of practice in the order. Of course, that means that it will be a voluntary code of practice. I assume that the code has not yet been issued because we have not seen it but it will be submitted to the seminar and I assume from that that the seminar will be in a position to amend the code if it considers that it requires amending.
We welcome the seminar and hope that it will be the first of a series of seminars and that with such seminars, with a sensitive code of practice and with the new order, a substantial contribution can be made to the homeless of Northern Ireland. On that basis we are pleased to give this order our support.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Blease: My Lords, I wish to indicate my support for the remarks and the points made by my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies in his approach to this order. There are a few specific points on the order on which I should like the Minister to reply. However, in passing I wish to point out that I was unable to inform the Minister in advance about the points I wish to make because of the short notice given for this debate. Indeed, in this connection I wish to register my dissatisfaction at this short notice. One sitting day's notice to the Members of this House for a debate on important legislation dealing with Northern Ireland issues is a blatant denial of any semblance of parliamentary democratic procedure.
Such ill-thought out arrangements frustrate any efforts to uphold respect for the due parliamentary processes and for this Government. Many of us in difficult situations in Northern Ireland have sought to ensure that parliamentary democracy is a means of rectifying what are considered to be matters of concern in Northern Ireland. Indeed, I know that other noble Lords interested in Northern Ireland affairs have not had the opportunity, which they wished to have, to take part in the debate this evening. Therefore, one working day's notice is not
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sufficient and I should like to make that clear in my opening remarks.
This order is about homelessness in Northern Ireland. Let us not forget that initially, in 1968, the issue of homelessness gave rise to the political turmoil and mayhem that during the past 20 years has made serious holes in the fabric of the law and order and parliamentary democracy in Northern Ireland. Of course, I fully accept that the current events in Northern Ireland have gone far beyond the issues of homelessness and housing.
While this order is largely based on the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 enacted some 11 years ago in England and Wales, it falls far short of meeting the needs of homeless people in Northern Ireland today. The Minister will know of the study into homelessness in Northern Ireland recently published by the Simon Community and Shelter organisations in the Province. I fully accept that there is considerable argument among those directly concerned in the statutory and voluntary sectors in Northern Ireland about the real extent of the problems of homelessness in numerical terms.
However, like my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies, I am pleased to hear that the Minister for Housing in Northern Ireland, Mr. Richard Needham, has indicated his proposal to arrange for a seminar within the next four weeks in which all those involved with homelessness in Northern Ireland will be asked to participate. If the seminar is designed to be a real consultative process and a clearing house as regards the facts and working relationships, I believe that it will be a real and practical step forward in meeting the needs of homelessness at this time in Northern Ireland.
My noble friend Lord Prys-Davies has gone into considerable detail and indeed I compliment him on his analysis of the situation as viewed by many in Northern Ireland. Therefore, I shall curtail my remarks to two points which I should like to make to the Minister. In the light of experience in England and Wales, following the introduction of the legislative duty, does the Minister seriously believe that the new statutory duty for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive can be fulfilled on the basis of an additional £300,000 to the current levels of expenditure that was undertaken by the health and social services boards in that respect? Is it not more realistic to think in terms of an annual budget of some £3 million if the problems of housing and homelessness in Northern Ireland are to be tackled?
Secondly, perhaps the Minister will indicate what legislative measures are likely to change in the benefit system for hostel dwellers and voluntary groups providing those important services for the homeless? Will the people under the proposed benefit system be worse off financially?
I believe that the arrangements for the 39 hostels and units for the homeless in Northern Ireland which provide accommodation, of which only three were provided by the four health boards, will be put under considerable strain. I should like the Minister to indicate in some way how he feels that the present benefit system may meet this situation. If there were to be some indication of additional financial means to

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implement the provisions of this order and the statutory duty now to be undertaken by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive I would be much happier to give a warmer welcome to this order than I do. However, with those remarks, I give my support to the order.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, the House is grateful to the two noble Lords who have spoken so clearly folllowing my introduction to the order. Of course, homelessness and housing is an important subject in Northern Ireland and it is only right that we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Blease. I thank him, together with his noble friend the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, for the care with which they have studied the order. Indeed, we believe it is an important step in combating homelessness, and I hope that what I said in introducing the order backs up that statement.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised a number of points. At one time I thought that I might have to write to him but I hope to be able to give him a full answer tonight. I shall study carefully his remarks and if I have missed anything he will certainly receive a letter from me. First, the noble Lord was concerned about funding for the measures outlined in the order. My remarks may cover some aspects of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blease; but if they do not go into detail, I shall certainly do so more widely in writing.
As regards funding and the structure of the funds for the homeless, before the statutory transfer of responsibility takes place in April 1989 the resources currently allocated for homelessness by the four health and social services boards will be transferred to the Housing Executive. While the transfer of resources will enable the present level of assistance to homeless persons to continue, we expect that there will be additional demands on the resources of the executive as a result of carrying out the tasks we are imposing in this order.
The overall budget of the Housing Executive is determined every year as part of the survey of public expenditure. That does and will continue to take full account of the assessment by the executive of its housing needs and conditions in the annual review of housing strategy. The 1988 strategy review includes proposals for expenditure on homelessness over the next few years. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that the funding for the homeless will be fully considered and, I hope, reflected in the 1988 survey.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, also asked about single homeless persons and he took us through Article 5. I shall not go into too much detail on the interpretation of that article tonight; but I assure the noble Lord that the legislation is drafted to ensure that the greatest assistance is provided to those in greatest need. Of course, each homeless person believes himself to be in great need. Immediate accommodation will be secured for applicants within the priority needs groups, who comprise those who are less able to look after themselves; for example, those with dependant children, the disabled or the elderly. Your Lordships will find that spelt out in Article 5(1).
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I stress that able-bodied single people should be able to secure temporary or permanent accommodation for themselves when they have been given the advice and assistance on how best to go about obtaining such accommodation. That will be the main thrust of the legislation and of what the executive will be doing. There cannot be any justification for a system under which immediate accommodation is secured for everyone who requested it. We would not have those facilities. I believe I stressed that last year 75 per cent. of the needs for this category was achieved within three months. That is a good record.
Single people will continue to be eligible for housing under the Housing Executive housing selection scheme. That covers nearly one-third of all allocations which are made to single people. Single people can also continue to be housed in the private sector and in the voluntary sector, to which we extend our gratitude and praise. The voluntary sector has provided accommodation for over 750 single people in the past four years. That goes with the earlier figures I mentioned.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked about appeals in Article 9. The Housing Executive operates an internal complaints procedure. That already deals with all kinds of housing problems. We are confident that the executive will agree that the existing powers cover cases where people are dissatisfied with the decisions or actions of the executive's officers. The executive has agreed to review its internal procedure to discover whether it is appropriate, as it stands, for its impending homelessness responsibilities. That is one of the major points we shall be hearing much about in the conference at the end of next month.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked about intentionality—where it is the intention of a person to render himself homeless. I do not think that will be a major problem. The purpose of Article 6 is to ensure that people do not deliberately abuse the system by making themselves homeless in order to jump the queue ahead of others who have been waiting patiently and worthily on the housing waiting list to be rehoused. I stress that the Housing Executive has a good record under its housing selection scheme for making decisions in relation to what it calls "deliberately worsening one's circumstances". That is the language spoken by the executive and covered in one word in the order. I believe that the Housing Executive will adopt a sensible and compassionate approach to decisions under Article 6.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, had a detailed, perhaps accountancy, point on Article 15. I emphasise that the article gives the executive a specific power to assist by way of grant or loan. It enables the executive to assist the voluntary organisations. The noble Lord asked what the loans would cover. I understand that it is permitted for the loan to cover revenue items as well as what could be seen as capital items.
The noble Lord also took us along the road of finance and interest rates. This will be for negotiation. The Housing Executive will negotiate the rate of interest payable on the loans in its normal relationship between the executive and the department. No specific rate will be ruled out.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Prys-Davies: My Lords, perhaps I may make this point clear. I want to know whether the loan will be interest free. I understand from the Minister that it will not be interest free but that the rate of interest will be agreed between the Housing Executive and the voluntary body.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, perhaps I may put it in this way. The loan could be interest free. That is how I have deliberately rephrased my remarks. It could be interest free but that is a matter for negotiation. I shall leave the question open. The interest can be from zero up to any rate that the Housing Executive deems necessary.
The noble Lord had one last query about the code of practice. The draft code of practice and guidance has not yet been published. When it is I shall ensure that a copy reaches the noble Lord as swiftly as possible. I also assure the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that it will be possible to amend the draft code following the seminar to which I referred earlier.
The noble Lord, Lord Blease, always presents his case with courtesy. As regards the timing of the debate tonight, I certainly convey my apologies. I believe the noble Lord will accept that it is a matter for the usual channels. On this side of the House our toes can also be trodden on. We can have mild inconvenience. If the noble Lord has been inconvenienced, I understand and I proffer my apologies.
I was fascinated when the noble Lord took us back and said that homelessness was one of the starting points of the troubles in 1968. Did it really start in Caledon? That was one of the starting points. The noble Lord asked me two specific questions. One concerns the duty in England and Wales. He mentioned the amount of £300,000 and thought that we might need £300 million. I am given to understand that the Housing Executive budget for this year will increase by £8 million; that is to say, from £500 million to £508 million. I believe the actual funding of what is before us this evening will be a matter for the Housing Executive.
If I can elucidate any further helpful information I shall write to the noble Lord. I shall certainly have to write to him on the question of benefit and how the benefit system will work with hostel and hotel accommodation. I am afraid I have not got any detailed or helpful answers this evening, so I hope that the noble Lord will receive a concise and helpful letter from me as soon as it is possible.
In conclusion, I am very grateful for the attention and care that has been lavished on the order tonight. Housing is of course a particular problem in Northern Ireland, just as it is elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I hope that this order will go a considerable way to alleviate some of the problems of homelessness.
Lord Blease: My Lords, in case it appears wrongly in the record, I did say £300,000 was to be the amount that probably would be handed over from health and social services to the Housing Executive. I said that
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the amount should be nearer £3 million, not £300 million.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I am so sorry. I shall certainly find out exactly what I said. I note the sting in the tail of the noble Lord's comments; namely, that it would be handed over. I do not know whether the noble Lord has an indication that this amount is in the coffers but I shall find out whether the sum is £300,000 or £3 million—I stress that again—and I hope that I shall have some helpful information for the noble Lord.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Penalty Points (Alteration) Order 1988
6.33 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 24th October be approved [35th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this order is to increase the penalty points for four road traffic offences. These offences are: careless or inconsiderate driving; failure to stop after an accident; failing to give particulars or report an accident; and driving without insurance against third party risks. The order would come into effect on 1st March 1989.
The increases arise from recommendations in the report of the road traffic law review known as the North Report. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport announced our intention to make these changes when he reported progress in our consideration of the report in a Written Answer on 26th July. The order, if approved, will increase both the lower and the upper ranges for the offence of careless driving from 2 to 5 points to a new range of 3 to 9 points. This reflects the North conclusion that a case which is not serious enough to merit 3 points should be dealt with by a police warning, and that a higher maximum is appropriate for some of the worst cases of careless driving.
Failure to stop after an accident and failure to report an accident at present carry penalty points in the ranges 5 to 9 points and 4 to 9 points respectively. The order provides for each to be raised to a new range of 8 to 10 points. These are serious offences. Regrettably they are on the increase, often because drivers are seeking to escape from the scene of an accident before a breath test can be administered. This not only hinders police investigations and makes it harder for victims to pursue civil claims for damage; at its worst it can also cost lives.
Finally, the order provides for the penalty points for driving without insurance to be changed from 4 to 8 to 6 to 8 points. This too is intended to mark the serious nature of the offence and the importance of providing financial protection for other road users in the event of an accident. Deaths from road accidents were over 5,000 in 1987, and the total number of casualties was 300,000. The costs to the nation of

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these casualties is now some £4,000 million. The grief and suffering that they cause are immeasurable.
The North Report was published on 12th April and it is a mark of the importance we attach to it that we felt it right to come to an early decision on these penalty point changes and to seek to implement them as quickly as possible. This reflects our desire to press ahead with the recommendations wherever they appear to provide a practicable way of improving the contribution which road traffc law makes to our efforts to reduce the heavy toll of road accident casualties.
These casualty figures are falling, but to reach our target of reducing all casualties by one-third by the year 2,000, we need to use all the measures available to us. The increase in penalty points for these offences may appear small in comparison to the magnitude of the task, but they are important. We believe they will help to make drivers more conscious of their behaviour on the road.
The changes which we are proposing today are only part of the story. As I said earlier, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced our initial views of the North Report only three months after its publication. We are now considering the views of other organisations and individuals, and we aim to announce our final conclusions on the report as a whole early in the new year. In the meantime, I commend the order now before your Lordships as an important first step in implementing the report.
Moved, that the order laid before the House on 24th October be approved [35th Report from the Joint Committee]—(Lord Brabazon of Tara.)
Lord Underhill: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for explaining this order and putting it forward in such a simple manner. Though he has done that, I have a number of comments and criticisms. Perhaps I may make it quite clear at the outset that this is not a party political matter at all. I am certain that my noble friends on these Benches welcome any proposals which are directed towards road safety and increase the points and other penalties where there are serious offences and the increases are thoroughly justified.
The noble Lord referred to the North Report, which naturally I have read. I found it extremely readable and a very valuable document. I am certain that it would have been helpful to Parliament as a whole if the total of 137 recommendations in the report had been considered in a general debate along with the Government's proposals before they moved on this matter. Why rush ahead with these four proposals? There are 137 serious recommendations in the North Report.
In a debate in the other place on three Bills on road traffic passed from your Lordships' House the Solicitor General said that if this order was approved these points would be included in a consolidation Bill. When the Government have made their final decisions on the North Report and we have a major Bill, surely we will need consolidation again. We must keep in mind that we cannot amend an order. Further, the opposition does not oppose an order
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that has been approved by the other place. At this stage I do not know whether the order has been approved by the other place because it is down for discussion there today. Our general policy is not to oppose an order for those reasons.
As the Minister has said, the review report was presented in April but I must emphasise that interested bodies were asked to submit views by the end of September. Yet here we are in October, with an order covering 4 points and an announcement to the effect that this order was to be put forward by the Solicitor-General on 25th July. Further, in a very lengthy written Statement by the Secretary of State on 26th July—and I am referring to the Official Report of the other place of 26th July at cols. 163–166—he actually announced the acceptance of a number of recommendations contained in the North Report, and not just these four. He also stated that these four proposals would be dealt with by means of an order. It seems wrong that we should have a consultation period closing at the end of September and yet have announcements made on 25th and 26th July about the North Report, just before we rose for the Summer Recess.
I should like to make a few brief comments on the four proposals. First, there is the proposal which deals with careless or inconsiderate driving. In this case the Government have accepted the recommendation from the North Report that the present range of 2–5 points be replaced by 3–9 points. I noticed that in paragraph 20 of the report a conclusion was that a mixture of general and specific bad driving be retained. I would point out that the extension of the upper limit to nine points is only one point less than the 10 points for reckless driving. The North Report goes into great detail in one or two chapters on the question of reckless driving, inconsiderate driving and bad driving. Therefore there is a case for a wide range of points, and I would suggest that there is a case for retention of the lower two points for the less serious cases.
As the Minister has said, the North Report urged that so far as possible warnings should be given instead of prosecutions and that as many verbal warnings as possible should be given by the roadside. Therefore I would argue that there is a case for retaining the lower figure of 2 penalty points, rather than changing it to 3.
Then we come to proposals (b) and (c) of the order: failure to stop after an accident and failure to give particulars or report. Here the Government have not accepted the North recommendations because the committee recommended that this offence should carry 10 penalty points in all cases and that the Magistrates' Association should review its guidance on the use of disqualification for these offences. There may be cases so serious that 10 penalty points are justified and where disqualification may be justified; but the North Report recommended that all cases should carry 10 penalty points.
I suggest that that would be extremely draconian and I am pleased to see that in this case the Government have not followed that recommendation. However, what they have done is to change to 8 to 10 points in all these cases. I would

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ask: why increase the 8 points? Why should we change the lower figures of 5 and 4 points respectively to 8 points? There is room for giving a wider range; that is, reducing the lower level to give this wider range so as to take account of many less serious cases, and even trivial ones.
May I, without taking up too much time, cite an actual case of which I have detailed personal knowledge? I may say that I am not the individual concerned. A driver was asked to go to a police station and present his documents. When he went he was told it had been reported that he had reversed into another car and gone off without making a report about the accident. The driver concerned said that he knew nothing whatever about this case. On looking at the car, the police could just find a small quarter-inch square chipping on his car. The driver—he is a lad of 19—was told "Don't worry: I do not think you will hear any more about it". But he did. He was prosecuted, and at the magistrates' court he was given 9 penalty points and fined £150 plus £90 costs. It was felt by some that this was a miscarriage of justice and the driver was persuaded to go to appeal. When the appeal was heard in the county court the judge summarily dismissed the case. He upheld the appeal completely and expunged the 9 points, the fine and the costs award.
That was a technical case. This is one of those cases that should be dealt with by the lowest possible number of points, if any points at all are in fact to be given, and not 9 points, as in the case I have mentioned. The only unfortunate thing about it is that the driver concerned is still left with legal costs of £250 for the solicitor he engaged for the first hearing in the magistrates' court. This case is one in which I can personally vouch for the details, and I checked them again last night to make sure that my facts were correct.
Proposal (d) refers to driving without insurance against third party risks. I agree completely with the North Report and with the Minister that this is a most serious offence. In fact, of the very few cases in which I have appeared on a jury the very first one concerned a case of failure to insure. The individual concerned had done this on two occasions and he was sent down for six months, which I thought was thoroughly justified. However, the North Report recommended that there should be a fixed number of points: 6 in all cases.
I suggest that that would be undesirable. There should be a range of points to meet varying circumstances, even up to 10 points, if necessary, to take account of what are really technical offences. However, the Government have not accepted the North Report's recommendation of 6 penalty points in all cases but they have changed the present range from 4 to 8 points to 6 to 8 points. Surely there are technical cases of which your Lordships may be aware or which may have occurred to your Lordships yourselves. For example, what about the position during the month's postal strike when renewal notices arrived some time afterwards? What about the position during an illness when one has not the opportunity to look at the renewal notices? What
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about the position when one is on holiday? It is a fact that some insurance companies give very short notice of renewal. I wonder how many of your Lordships could tell me the date on which their motor insurance will expire. I could not give my own date: I know the month but not the actual date.
Therefore there are technical cases and the North Committee Report recommended that in general no technical cases should be taken to court. Also we had the statement from the police that there is no desire to prosecute in respect of technical offences. I believe that there ought to be a wide range for these offences in respect of failure to have a current renewal of insurance, bearing in mind that there are these technicalities to which I have referred.
On the other hand, there are very serious cases which not only justify 10 penalty points but, in my opinion, even disqualification. I mentioned the case when I was on the jury in which the man was sent down. Therefore even though I recognise the Government's underlying purpose, I think these criticisms and comments justify the case I made right at the outset, that it would have been preferable if the whole of the North Report and the Government's response to it had been the subject of a full debate before the Government made any move at all.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I too am grateful to the Minister for introducing the order so clearly. However, like the noble Lord from the Labour Party Front Bench, I also have some qualifications—most of which, I must say, the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, has dealt with. Perhaps I may just underline one or two of the matters he raised.
I think that the question of consultation is something which the Government are at fault on here. Many noble Lords will have received a brief from the RAC today. Not of all of us swallow everything that the RAC says and briefs to us, when it comes to road matters, without a pinch of salt. Nevertheless the RAC must have the opportunity to make its case before such orders are laid.
It is quite clear that in this case the whole process was very truncated and before the RAC and many other people were able to put their views to the Government, the order had been laid. Therefore that cannot be considered to be a matter of consultation. Clearly the matters before us are serious motoring offences in most cases and deserve to be dealt with severely.
On the issue of careless driving, I was interested to hear the noble Lord say that they were increasing the range to 3 to 9 points, instead of 2 to 5 points, and that below 3 points people would be subject to a police warning. That I think bears on what the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said. It ought to be set in a much wider context. If we say that below 3 points people ought to have a police warning, then we ought to be looking at the whole system because surely that cannot apply only to these offences; it must apply across a wider spectrum.
On the question of failing to stop or report an accident, that is clearly a most serious offence. I do not think that anyone would quibble with that. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, pointed

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out— quite dramatically—in the case to which he referred, there can be technicalities even in what appears to be an open-and-shut and serious offence. In my view the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, is quite right to criticise the Government for rather rushing into this decision.
As regards the North recommendation on driving without insurance and, indeed, on all those cases where a fixed number of penalty points is to be administered, I believe that that is a mistake. We must leave discretion to our magistrates' courts. Parliament may well have to indicate to the magistrates' courts, and others, how serious it feels an offence might be. But to force courts into a position where there is really only one penalty that they can administer, especially in relation to driving offences, is a serious mistake. In most cases there should be the opportunity for matters to be varied; while, at the same time, not allowing the courts to underestimate the seriousness of the offences with which they are dealing.
Generally speaking, I support everything that the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said. I ask the Government to take care that they do not bring the whole system into disrepute by bringing in such piecemeal orders. If we are to make changes, they ought to be set in a much broader context. As the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said, we should have a general debate on the whole question. I do not pretend for a minute that the level of penalties, or the shape of the whole matter, is necessarily something which cannot be changed; we are to a certain degree experimenting with the whole system, and I believe it is a good system. However, let us not push everything up to the top end too quickly because if we do I seriously believe that we may bring the whole system into disrepute.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I think it would be proper if I were to remind your Lordships that I am a member of the Public Policy Committee of the RAC. However, having said that, I think that your Lordships will recall that long before I joined the committee I took an interest in such matters.
At the outset perhaps I may say that I believe, because I cannot dissent from anything that the noble Lords, Lord Tordoff and Lord Underhill, have said, I might accuse my noble friend and his right honourable friend of driving this order through without due care and attention.
It seems to me inconceivable that out of the 135 North recommendations these few should be picked up in July, as it seems to be; whereas other penalty point suggestions made by the North Report have been totally disregarded. These are somewhat less important. For example, the North Report says that the penalty points as regards carrying a pillion passenger illegally, which currently carries a 1 point penalty, should be abolished. For speeding the report suggests that the 3 point fixed penalty should be retained, but that an additional 3 to 6 point penalty range should be added for court cases. Yet we hear nothing of this where so frequently speeding— not that I necessarily agree—is reputed to be the cause of so many serious accidents.
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In my view, not carrying insurance does not increase the likelihood of an accident taking place. Yet my noble friend says—emotionally, if I may say so—that the regulations he has put before your Lordships tonight will make a great contribution to road safety. I do not know that I agree that it will make a great contribution because we have significantly failed to apprehend those who drive without any insurance; without any road fund tax and without any MoT. Therefore increasing the penalties for what may in many instances be a technical offence, such as not having insurance, does not seem to me to add to the great cause of road safety.
On the question of consultation, I am given to understand—if I am wrong I hope that my noble friend will correct me—that the Magistrates' Association have not yet put forward their formal response to the North Report. I am further advised that in the case of offences of failing to give particulars or report an accident, magistrates have generally taken the view that the lower in the range of 4 to 9 penalty points, that is 4 points, should be the punishment.
Therefore it seems to me that the Government have picked upon what are perhaps somewhat emotional, somewhat easily recognisable, offences to give credence to their consideration for road safety; their consideration of the North Report; and that they have rushed into this set of regulations.
Like both noble Lords who have spoken, I am bitterly disappointed that decisions should be taken before all consultation has taken place. With my little knowledge of the Department of Transport, and with the best will in the world, I cannot conceive that three weeks between the end of the consultation period—that is, the end of September—and the laying of the order some 10 days or a week ago is sufficient for the department to give proper consideration to all these matters.
I should really like the noble Lord to take the regulations away and discuss the whole range of the penalty point system against the background of the North Report. Let both Houses of Parliament give their consideration to that area and accommodate it in a consolidation Bill at some time—which cannot be more than a year or 18 months away. Or, alternatively, allow Parliament to debate the whole of the North Report to see what Parliament has to say against the background of the consultations and then come forward with the regulations.
I cannot say that I am happy about any of the regulations. There is a 10 point penalty for reckless driving. The penalty points for careless or inconsiderate driving rise from the bottom of the floor, 3, to 1 point below. That cannot be sensible. It cannot illustrate the seriousness of reckless driving to the driver. He will say, "It is just a point above inconsiderate". A good lawyer can argue that the driving was inconsiderate; another will say that it was reckless. Who wins? The lawyer. The law and the motorist will not win; nor will the poor victim. I am sorry that my noble friend and his right honourable friend have chosen this way at this time to bring forward the regulations.
7 p.m.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, these orders are normally non-contentious and minor and go through on the nod. That cannot be said of this order. The noble Lords, Lord Tordoff and Lord Underhill, have said it all. I shall not waste your Lordships' time by repeating what they said. However, I shall take up the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, of the young lad who had a slight bump. Anyone who goes shopping at the weekend and who parks in a multi-storey car park may find that he has just touched another car or may find when he gets home that another car has touched his. If every time one touches a car when parking or driving one has to run off to the police to report the fact, the police will be inundated. They could not deal with all the cases. They have enough to do at the moment dealing with serious crime.
If the order goes through one may touch another car. Although the damage cannot be seen, someone might have reported the accident and one therefore has to go around to the local nick and say, "I touched this car". It is inconceivable that the order should be accepted. I agree with previous speakers. To choose just four out of the 130 recommendations of the North Report is silly. I too should like to see a full debate on the whole of this important subject.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for introducing the order although I am afraid that I cannot welcome it. Very little of the North Report was welcomed by anyone. Much of it met with wide opposition throughout the country. The order was ordered to be printed only last Tuesday. I agree with other noble Lords who have said that the intervening two sitting days did not provide enough time for those of us who are interested to contact outside organisations to hear their views so that we can perhaps speak for them in your Lordships' Chamber as we are entitled to do.
I have spoken to the RAC and the Magistrates' Association today. They are upset that the order should come before the House before the completion of the consultation period. Both organisations feel that the Secretary of State's objective,
"to allow the courts to deal more effectively with the serious cases"
may be necessary, but they feel that there is no need to raise the upper as well as the lower limit of the points range.
The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, mentioned careless driving. I shall try to truncate my few words because all noble Lords have said what I wanted to say. As the noble Lord said, there must be a greater differential between careless and reckless driving. The noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, pointed out that the Government's idea is that there should be a police warning if the penalty is below 3 points. At what stage will it be decided to give a police warning? A defendant has to go to court to be assessed. One has to be found guilty before the points are assessed. That is obviously too late for a police warning to be given.
The Crown Prosecution Service comes in here. I do not think much of it. It frequently fails to recognise the problems on the roads. I sometimes feel that its
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members sit behind their little desks and have never been on the roads. I am certain none of them has been a magistrate.
I was pleased to see that the Government did not agree with the North Report which wanted 10 fixed points for failing to stop. That is right. I still believe that a maximum of 10 is far too high for failing to stop as it is for failing to report.
Driving without insurance is serious. It can be serious for other people on the road whose car might have been involved in an accident. The Government want to increase the penalty points from 4 to 8 to 6 to 8. On the whole I agree with that. However, I disagree with the whole principle of bringing the order before us tonight. I agree with other noble Lords. I too had been waiting for an opportunity to speak on the North Report, but we have had no opportunity to do so in this Session. That is a grave mistake.
The Government either welcome the North Report or they do not. They seem to have welcomed just four parts of a lengthy report. I am unhappy about the order. Although I do not sit as a magistrate at the moment because I have moved house, I have had many years' experience of dealing with such cases. I do not believe that upping the penalty points will save any lives. I doubt whether it will stop any accidents. I am afraid that I cannot possibly welcome the order.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I strongly support the powerful criticisms of the Government's actions made by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, and all other noble Lords who have spoken from all quarters of the House. Like the noble Lords, Lord Tordoff and Lord Lucas of Chilworth, I wonder whether the Minister will explain why responsible organisations such as the RAC were not properly consulted before the order was introduced.
Following the interesting case cited by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, perhaps I too may ask for clarification of one point with regard to disqualification. Let us suppose that on a dark and stormy night a motorist thinks that he might have scraped against the brick or stone wall of someone's garden causing damage to the tune of £5 or £10; not to another car, but to what one might call static property, in other words, the wall. He cannot be certain because he does not have a torch in his car and he does not wish to reverse his car along a narrow and perhaps busy road in the middle of a thunderstorm. In the event that the wall is damaged, does that count in law as failing to stop after an accident? If so, is it right that the motorist should receive 10 penalty points for what most people would consider to be a trivial offence?
Earl Fortescue: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for explaining the order to us, although I cannot entirely agree with it. I agree with almost everything which the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said. It is a pity that the order has been put through at such short notice in such a piecemeal way. As regards the number of points for each offence, I do not think one need worry at all about the maximum, either as the points stand now or as proposed in the

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new order. For any of the offences mentioned, the courts have power to disqualify in each case if they consider it a particularly serious matter or for any other reason such as the driver's previous record.
I am concerned about the minimum number of points suggested, in particular in the case of failing to stop after an accident. The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, gave a perfect example of a very minor bump which does not warrant a minimum of 5 or a maximum of 9 points for failing to stop. As one noble Lord said, it happens frequently that one just touches another car without knowing it, getting in and out of a confined space in a car park.
Again, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. There are technical reasons where driving uninsured is not such a serious offence. In many cases of which I have experience insurance companies are very slow in sending out renewal notices. Several times I have been technically uninsured for a matter of days or even a week or two. Having said that, I think there are many other offences which should be covered and which are not mentioned in the order.
7.15 p.m.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, we have had an interesting debate on the order. I should like to thank noble Lords for the thoughtful contributions that they have made. I find it heartening that there is this growing interest in road safety matters. That concern is reflected by many others outside the House. The general public is increasingly concerned about the need to ensure good driving behaviour on the roads and a responsible attitude and consideration for other road users, particularly the most vulnerable groups—pedestrians and children.
Perhaps I may attempt to answer some of the criticisms that have been made. A number of noble Lords have said that we are rushing this through. We announced at the end of July that we intended to deal with this matter in the autumn. The autumn is fast coming to an end. Penalty points are kept under constant review and it is for the Government to make such decisions as and when appropriate. We have looked at the proposals again in the light of responses and there has been quite a long time for the interested parties to respond to our proposals. I may say that the majority support the Government's decision. Indeed, it has been widely welcomed. We are therefore proceeding as planned so that the benefits can be achieved quickly.
The more far-reaching recommendation to extend the maximum penalty for failure to stop to include a term of imprisonment is still being considered as part of the total North package on which decisions will be announced in the new year. Far be it from me to pre-empt the usual channels, but if the House wishes to debate the matter I am sure that then would be the appropriate time to do it.
As to specific offences covered in the order—careless driving for one—I know that the RAC felt, as has been explained to us this evening, that 2 points should he retained as the minimum and 9 was too high for the maximum. However, the majority of other commentators agreed with the new range. Some—mainly pedestrians' associations—
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argued for up to 11 points maximum because the difficulty of successfully prosecuting reckless driving means that serious cases are dealt with as careless.
The reformulation of the reckless offence which the Government have agreed in principle should help to avoid this. We did not want to keep the lower figure of 2 points, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, in particular requested. A police warning is intended for use instead of a court appearance. The intention is that it should be used in cases where a penalty of 2 points might be awarded now.
The points for failure to stop or report drew the most comment; it was an area that attracted conflicting views. Most commentators disagreed with the North recommendation—a fixed number of 10 points—and noble Lords this evening have echoed that disagreement on the whole. We therefore allowed a range of 8 to 10 points in order to permit some flexibility. Others, I may say, would have preferred a fixed number of points so that there would not be any likelihood of variation between different magistrates' courts.
Some commentators, as well as noble Lords, were worried that this takes no account of offences where the driver, for instance, of a large vehicle may be unaware that a minor accident has occurred. The police and prosecution services are well used under existing arrangements to exercising discretion as to whether or not to prosecute in cases where the driver may be unaware of the accident. North's recommendation that the police should make greater use of warnings will of course also apply to such cases.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, will the noble Lord give way? I am most grateful. When he says that the police and prosecution service are well aware and exercise discretion, it seems to me that that is perfectly true. However, in doing what they have done, the Government may be increasing the power of discretion of the police and diminishing the power of discretion of the magistrates' court. It seems to me that that is the wrong way round.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the noble Lord is entitled to his view. We have had a debate on this subject. What we cannot do is to reduce the penalty for such a serious offence in order to deal with exceptions to the general rule. These should be dealt with by warnings, if appropriate.
As regards driving while uninsured, most commentators favour retaining a range to deal with the varying circumstances of the offence. The Government have acknowledged this and have marked the nature of the offences by starting the range at a higher maximum—that is 6 instead of 4—and keeping the current maximum of 8 points. Technical offences would be dealt with by a warning or a formal caution by the police. We have to be careful here because the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, cited a case and mentioned for instance the postal strike. However, I am afraid that the "cheque in the post" excuse is often used by people who have no intention of taking out any insurance at all. So we obviously have to be very careful of that sort of situation.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, will the noble Lord give way? If it is a really serious offence, why limit the penalty to 8 points? Why not go up to 10 points, as the Government have done in other cases?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, obviously there is the possibility of something other than points if it is really serious. There could be something worse.
The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, made one point which I think I should answer on the failure to stop and report. It was that nobody was going to be bothered to report to the police for a minor accident of some sort. It is not necessary to report to the police in a case where nobody is injured where two cars collide. That need not be reported to the police; the drivers only have to exchange names and addresses. Presumably in the case quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Monson, the motorist would have to try and find out who was the owner of the wall which he hit. It is not as severe as the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, implied.
The Government's objective is to make road traffic law fair and to maximise the contribution which the law makes to road safety. We certainly do not want to persecute the ordinary motorist who makes a minor error. We accept North's view that such cases are best dealt with by a warning. But we want to hit hard the bad driver, the drunk driver and the anti-social driver who seeks to evade responsibility for his actions. Therefore, I ask noble Lords to give their support to the measures before them today as a further step in the direction of reducing road accident casualties and improving our road safety record.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, did I understand him to say that we are to discuss more of these points in the New Year? I should like to know that because perhaps the noble Lord would then agree that we should discuss them all together—this order and other orders—in the New Year.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, what I said was made very clear by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State when he made his announcement on the North Report at the end of July. I do not know whether my noble friend has managed to read all of that very long report. It deals with a whole range of issues apart from the one we have dealt with this evening. As I said in my opening remarks, we hope to have our consideration of all of the other measures in
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the North Report early in the New Year. I did not promise a debate on the issue, but if we were to have a debate I should have thought that was the time to have it.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Murton of Lindisfarne): My Lords, the Question is that this Motion be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say, "Content". To the contrary, "Not-Content".
Noble Lords: Not-Content!
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I think the Contents have it. Clear the Bar.
Division called.
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I understand that Tellers for the Contents have not been appointed pursuant to Standing Order No. 51. A Division therefore cannot take place, and in accordance with Standing Order No. 54, which provides that no proposal to reject subordinate legislation should be agreed to unless there is a majority in favour of such a rejection, I declare the Motion agreed to.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: My Lords, I think the Deputy Speaker said that Tellers for the Contents had not been appointed. It should have been Tellers for the Not-Contents.
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I accept the criticism.

London Regional Transport Bill
Committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
Birmingham City Council
Reported from the Unopposed Bill Committee with amendments.

Southern Water Authority Bill
The Queen's Consent signified, and Bill reported from the Unopposed Bill Committee with amendments.
House adjourned at twenty-six minutes past seven o'clock.

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