Sitting of 27 May 1988

Preamble
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS

  First-time Home Buyers
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. David Hunt.]
  9.36 am
  Mr. Hugo Summerson: I wanted to bring a brick with me into the Chamber this morning but I was told that that would not be permitted. That is unfortunate, as I wished to illustrate my speech with that brick. Thousands of bricks, cemented together, form one of the major aspirations of young people in Britain today. In the course of my remarks I shall give quite a long preamble on the history of housing and the phenomenon of first-time buying. I will make a few suggestions on how the first-time buyer might be helped.
  Housing in Britain over the centuries has, until comparatively recently, been the preserve of the great landowners and freeholders who were responsible for putting up property in the cities and on the land. Going back to medieval times, most of the land was held by the great feudal lords or by small farmers. Several hundred years later on, houses were erected by small tradesmen by way of investment and were let out to agricultural workers for a few shillings a week.
  Starting at the time of the industrial revolution, there was a great movement of people from the land into the cities. The housing in the cities was mainly for rent or to lease. Of course, most people's incomes then were such that they could not afford to buy. They had to rent or lease, and the cost of housing reflected that.
  I want to dispel the myth of the idyllic country cottage. The sight of a cottage with a thatched roof and roses over the porch in a charming country village is a modern phenomenon. For the people who perhaps only 100 years ago had to live in such cottages, life must have been pretty grim. There were earth floors, no central heating, no insulation, no running water and the privy was outside at the bottom of the garden. How the wind must have whistled through the gaps around the windows in the winter.
  Until comparatively recently, most housing was rented. Houses were erected to be rented or leased for a term of years, and that fact cannot be over-stressed. However, starting at about the time of the First World War, we had the first signs of rent control. Up till then, the vast majority of people had lived in rented accommodation, but the decline in the private rented sector began then and has gone on ever since.
  Today, young people have both the inclination to become homeowners and, unfortunately, a lack of alternative. There are few other choices, so they simply have to become home buyers. This puts a great deal of stress on them, particularly when they are just starting out in work, and their salaries are not all that great. Therefore,
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  although the inclination is there, the means may be lacking. Young people living with their families may want to move out, and this can generate stress and turmoil within the family home.
  Another factor at work is divorce. It is greatly to be regretted that this is ever on the increase. About one in three marriages end in divorce, and this has a knock-on effect in that those households become divided and there are then two people seeking somewhere to live separately. The chances are that each person will be looking for a fairly small place as their means will be divided because of divorce. Therefore, many of them will be competing with the first-time buyer.
  Yet another factor is mobility of population. This started with the coming of the motor car and with the increasing affluence ever since. Between the wars was the age of the country house weekend. Rich people would go off and stay with their rich friends in their country houses. Although that may be a good thing socially, it was not in terms of comfort. Many of those country houses were as poor in amenities as the agricultural workers' cottages, especially in the lack of heating. In the winter, many of them were freezing cold.
  Nowadays, an increasingly affluent population has decided that it is a good thing to get out of London for the weekend, so people buy themselves a cottage somewhere in Dorset, Wiltshire, Berkshire, Gloucestershire or Hampshire—anywhere within fairly easy reach of London—and go off for their weekends there, which is nice for them. Unfortunately, it has a bad effect on local people. They do not have the purchasing power of buyers from London, so they cannot afford to buy. They may want to stay in their home areas, but if they cannot buy, they have to move. That has a shattering effect on local communities.
  Unfortunately, the housing market is not perfect. It suffers from many distortions. One of the main ones is the planning system, starting with the first Town and Country Planning Act in 1947. You would not permit me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to talk at great length about the planning system, but it means that in areas of great demand, planners will often refuse permission to build for various reasons, with the result that the supply is restricted. The increasing demand in an increasingly affluent society builds up, but if supplies are continually pinched, inevitably property prices will rise.
  This is all very well if one is already on the housing ladder. It is marvellous if one already owns one's own home, no matter how humble it may be. One can sit back and chuckle and rub one's hands and think, "I paid only £50,000 for this cottage a couple of years ago, and now it is worth £80,000." All I can say is, "Bully for you." That is fine, but it has an effect on those at the bottom end of the market. They see one of the major aspirations slipping ever further away from them.
  Another distortion in the market is mortgage interest tax relief, which costs the Treasury about £4·5 billion a year. It is not my purpose to attack this relief, which has done a great deal to help aspiring home owners, but on the other hand, if it did not exist, that much demand would have been taken out of the market and property prices might be lower. Moreover, the relief has now been restricted to one allowance per property. Again, I have no quarrel with that, but it also has an effect on the bottom end of the market. Two young people who may want to set up home together and who need all the help they can get no longer have that extra help available.

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  Such is the pressure on the housing market that some local authorities have to offer large capital sums to attract staff. They cannot fill vital posts because staff who want to come down from the midlands or the north cannot afford to buy in London. There have been instances of councils offering up to £75,000 towards buying as an inducement to staff to come to live in their areas.
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: Could not many of the social problems to which my hon. Friend has referred arise from housing shortages that could have been cured earlier if the Government had set about providing more accommodation for rent by means of a more drastic reform, and perhaps a repeal, of the Rent Acts? Rented accommodation should be available for people who otherwise are congested in the first-time buyers' market.
  Mr. Summerson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, for that point and I agree with him. It is absolutely right and I hope to cover that matter in rather more detail.
  I have spoken about councils having to offer large capital sums to staff and there is a similar phenomenon with companies. I have heard that some of the richer companies are now buying blocks of flats in London and the south-east to house their staff.
  Another matter that impinges heavily on first-time buyers is the conveyancing system, which is uncertain, expensive and wearisome. It is high time that this most absurd system was looked into. It is immensely expensive and involves groups of people who are not exactly well known for speedy action—I almost said, speedy and efficient action. At least two lots of solicitors, estate agents, surveyors, local authorities and the land registry are involved, and the whole process can drag on and on. The worst feature of it is that at the end of the business, the buyer cannot be assured that he will get his property. He may find that after spending hundreds, if not thousands, of pounds on these incidental expenses, the chap from whom he is buying has decided to withdraw the property from the market or accept a higher offer.
  The cost of conveyancing a mansion in Hampstead selling at £750,000 and the work involved in the process is exactly the same as that for a two-bedroomed house in Walthamstow selling at £70,000. This conveyancing system is a racket that has been going on for far too long. It is high time something was done about it, but unfortunately I cannot go into that in great detail.
  I want to ram the point even further home by quoting a story that I heard about a chain of purchasers. We all know about those wretched chains. The man at the top end of the chain was selling a large house and buying an even larger house somewhere else, but he could not proceed because his purchaser could not proceed as he had not sold his property and so on, all the way down the line. Being quite bright, the man looked into the matter and discovered that the man at the end of the chain was trying to sell his small cottage in Wales for £18,000, but could not find a buyer. The man at the top end of the chain therefore bought the cottage at the bottom end of the chain and the whole series of transactions then went through. It is absurd that those chains should exist, and they only exist because of our ridiculous conveyancing system.
  Yet another factor which is no help to the first-time buyer is that of so-called gentrification. Gentrification has
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  its good effects. I imagine that possibly at no time in its history has so much of London been so carefully lived in and loved. Areas of London in which many people would not have been seen dead a few years ago are now highly popular and the streets are full of builders' skips. That is fine, but it means that property prices in those areas, which were once the cheaper areas, are also on the increase and once again, that has a bad effect on the first-time buyer.
  Finally, in the course of this long preamble, I want to mention one or two figures. About 8·5 million borrowers benefit from mortgage interest tax relief, of whom about half a million receive multiple relief. Those half a million people will no longer enjoy that relief. The average dwelling in the south-east costs about £56,000 and the average mortgage is about £36,000. In the south-east, almost 70 per cent. of first-time buyers need a second income to step on to the home ownership ladder. Many of them raise the deposit from parents, friends and relatives, but it is becoming an increasingly difficult process and it worries me that young people are borrowing money at multiples of perhaps four times or even four and a half times their income to obtain a mortgage. Anyone borrowing on that sort of multiple is laying up trouble for himself. The vast majority of his disposable income will go on paying off the mortgage and an increase in interest rates could be completely disastrous.
  Having raised a number of points, I shall now, in the true Conservative tradition, suggest some answers. I welcome the proposals in the Housing Bill for the expansion of the private rented sector. In my view, that is absolutely vital to help young people who want ultimately to become first-time buyers. There are many old images of the private rented sector. One such image is that of the old landlady, a fag drooping from the corner of her mouth and her feet clad in dirty slippers, shuffling around the house in a dirty old dress with her hair tied up in what looks like a dishcloth, standing outside the door on a Friday evening, breathing heavily, hammering away on the door and demanding her rent. That landlady was perhaps a figure of the 1950s, but she barely exists today.
  Another bugbear is that of Rachmanism. The very sound of the word makes that concept sound even worse. One can really spit it out and make it sound horrible. Mr. Rachman was an extremely unpleasant creature, but it must be said that people like him can thrive only where the law has stepped in a misguided attempt to "protect" tenants. If the law did not give tenants security of tenure for life and, in some instances, for two or three generations, if it did not insist that the landlord spend large sums of money on maintaining the structure of the property while, on the other hand, decreeing that the rent he could charge should be limited to a ridiculous amount, there would be no incentive at all for landlords to try to get rid of their tenants.
  There would then be no need for people like Mr. Rachman to go around with large dogs, frightening tenants and cutting off water and electricity supplies. If the landlord knew that he could strike a bargain with his tenants over such things as the length of the term and the amount of rent to be paid, he would have no need to do any of that because he would know that, at the end of the term, he could get his property back if he wished.
  Our opponents will say that that will mean that rent levels will soar. The rent levels will rise, but, in a constituency such as mine, the rent levels will be at the rate

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  that the local people can afford. It is absurd to say that west end rent levels will apply in a place such as Walthamstow.
  The Government scheme called Homeloan to help first-time buyers has not proved to be a great success and I suggest that it should be scrapped in favour of another scheme. Although the Treasury might not like this alternative, I shall put it to my hon. Friend. At present, if someone buys a property for, say, £50,000, assuming that he pays interest at the rate of 10 per cent., he will pay £5,000 a year in interest, on which he will receive tax relief. Let us then take the case of someone who rents a property for £4,000 a year, which is perhaps all that he can afford. If he can save the difference of £1,000 a year and the Treasury then adds to that the amount of tax relief that he would have received if he had paid interest on a mortgage, he will accumulate a capital sum that will be of great use to him when his income eventually reaches the stage that he can put his foot on the first rung of the home-owning ladder.
  Housing associations should be expanded. Their activities are excellent and they are well trusted by the public. They operate shared ownership schemes under which one buys 25 per cent. of the freehold of a property, pays rent on the remainder and then buys slices of the freehold when one's income permits. Some enlightened local authorities also operate such schemes. Those schemes are also useful to help local people in country towns because in some cases they ensure that they can never buy 100 per cent. of the freehold. They can perhaps buy 90 per cent. of the freehold and then move on. That means that the schemes will always be there for the use of local first-time buyers.
  In conclusion I should like to point out that in 1986–87, there were 670,000 first-time buyers, the highest ever annual figure. I wish also to stress the importance of the first-time buyer. Like Atlas, he hears the world of housing on his shoulders.
  9.58 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mrs. Marion Roe): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson) for giving us the opportunity to debate this important subject this morning. I welcome the constructive and thoughtful way in which he approached this subject which is close to the hearts of many people. He has clearly reflected on the problems facing those seeking to buy their first house and I am sure that none of us would disagree with his general theme of the importance of the first-time buyer.
  My hon. Friend has quoted examples of young people, wanting to take their first step into home ownership, but finding it difficult to do so. I can assure hon. Members that I am well aware, from my own constituency surgeries, that it requires real commitment, hard saving and discipline, for a young couple to be able to buy their first home. I admire the commitment of all those who achieve their goal.
  I want first to remind hon. Members of the Government's enormous success, since 1979, in spreading home ownership more widely. There are almost 3 million more owner-occupied homes today, than there were in
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  May 1979. That is an increase of 25 per cent. Home ownership has reached its highest-ever levels—in England 66 per cent. In 1975, the figure was only 57 per cent.
  Of course, part of that outstanding growth in home ownership has come about through our right to buy. More than 1,100,000 homes provided by the public sector have now been bought by the tenants who were living in them. The right to buy has extended home ownership to millions of people who would never before have dreamed of being able to own their own homes. They are a special class of first-time buyers: people, often into middle age, whose children were about to strike out on their own, and who perhaps had been able to put something aside for savings; people who otherwise would have had no choice but to remain council tenants for the rest of their lives. The popularity of the right to buy is such that even the Labour party has been forced to accept that it is now an established part of the housing scene.
  Besides the people who have bought their council homes, there are another 2·9 million who have bought for the first time on the open market. Last year, there were some 515,000 such buyers, compared with 390,000 in 1979. So there are still huge numbers of first-time buyers who are finding the means of buying their first homes, despite all the stories that young people can no longer afford to buy.
  I know, of course, that the picture varies across the country. First-time buyers in London, who are paying an average of £56,700 for a home, might well envy those in the northern region, where the average price is less than half as much.
  I receive quite a number of letters from hon. Members whose constituents describe the difficulties which rising house prices are causing them or, often, their sons and daughters wishing to set up home. There is often an implicit request that the Government should "do something" about house price increases. All manner of people are blamed for rising prices: the estate agents, inevitably; the better-off outsider who can afford to move into the area; excessive pay in the City.
  Letters sometimes urge intervention in the market. I have to remind the writers that home owners trade their homes in a pretty free market. What one can get for one's house depends on what someone else will pay. One may use advisers who will encourage one to expect a high price, but in the end, it is another family, not big business, the professions or the state, that decides whether the price is acceptable.
  We reject suggestions that the Government should step in and interfere with deals freely negotiated between ordinary people. No Government have attempted to do that. I was intrigued to see a report, which came out in August 1945, of the interdepartmental committee on the selling price of houses. It was asked
  "To consider, and report, about whether it is practical to control effectively the selling price of houses …".
  It came up with a scheme involving the district valuer valuing one's house. There were to be penalties for paying more than the permitted price.
  It stated
  "It may be considered desirable to empower local authorities to investigate cases brought to their notice and to institute proceedings".
  It concluded:
  "Any form of contracting out of the scheme should be prohibited"
  and

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  "Machinery could be provided whereby enforcement officers examine the certificates and declarations lodged and also the price lists or inventories relating to any furniture or fixtures sold".
  That sounds positively Orwellian. Would anybody want that kind of regime? Not even the 1945 Labour Government were prepared to pursue that idea.
  One remedy for rising house prices that is put to us is that more houses should be built. That suggestion, of course, comes more often from the housebuilders than from those who might live in the houses. There is obviously substance in the idea, but how much effect on prices would it really have? Each year, about 1,400,000 homes change hands, and about 1,200,000 of them are existing houses. So the builders' share of the whole market is relatively limited. A 50 per cent. increase in the number of new houses built would lead to less than a 10 per cent. increase in the number offered for sale. In most areas, it is simply not plausible that building more new houses would make the critical difference between present-day prices and prices which more people could afford.
  Even if the new houses were to be built, what land would be used for them? The greatest pressures are in the areas where there is the strongest resistance to new development. Of course, we want to get more development back into inner-city sites. We want to prise out of local authorities' hands the tracts of vacant land which they still own, and which ought to be put to good use. Our Land Register powers are getting more land on to the market, but some of the land would have to come from green field sites, and enormous controversy is always involved in such decisions.
  It is the job of the planning system to ensure an adequate supply of land for housing, while protecting the environment and, in particular, firmly maintaining the extensive green belts. That is one reason why we continue to press for development to be channelled towards our older towns and cities. This can both assist the process of urban regeneration and help conserve the best countryside. Over the past two years or so, some 46 per cent. of land for new housing throughout the country has been land which was previously developed or was vacant land in built-up areas. In the south-east, 55 per cent. of new housing is on such land. My hon. Friend referred to the fact that the planning system restricts supply. However, the planning system is simply responding to the wishes of the public, as I am sure my hon. Friend recognises.
  It is simply not possible to accommodate all demands in the inner cities. Some new sites will still be needed to cater for legitimate housing requirements, including those of local people.
  My hon. Friend also referred to the fact that tax relief on interest is available to would-be purchasers who take on mortgages. I am glad that he recognised that that tax relief assists first-time buyers. We are committed to retaining it.
  Let me turn now to what I see as the more promising ways of helping first-time buyers. I mentioned earlier the need to get developable land out of the hands of local authorities and into the hands of the private sector, which can develop it. Since 1980, we have encouraged local authorities and new towns to sell vacant housing land, especially for housing which new buyers might afford. The
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  results have been quite encouraging: 12,600 acres have been sold to developers, which is likely to be enough for about 150,000 houses.
  We have particularly encouraged local authorities and new towns to enter into licence agreements with developers to provide housing aimed at those on the borderline of home ownership. By using a licence the developer does not have to pay for the land at the outset, so that saves interest charges, and the benefit can be passed on to the customer. In addition, the local authority usually has the right to put forward the names of potential buyers for the first few weeks that the property is offered for sale. The local authority can often put in the land at less than its market value, with the saving being passed on to the house buyer. More than 53,000 homes have been sold on that basis since 1980.
  Another valuable way of helping first-time buyers is shared ownership. We cleared the way for that in 1980, and since then there have been some 43,000 shared ownership purchases. The majority of these schemes have been provided by housing associations; and I am sure that my hon. Friend, who advocated extending the role of housing associations, will welcome the initiatives on housing associations that we are taking in the Housing Bill.
  Shared ownership is a means of part-owning, part-renting, a home. It can be particularly useful to first-time buyers who cannot afford to buy outright. Shared ownership schemes have allowed people to increase the share of their home, when they can afford it, and eventually to become full owners.
  Shared ownership schemes have been run for some years by housing associations and local authorities. In the Housing and Planning Act 1986 we cleared the way for shared ownership to be offered by the private sector. There have been interesting developments at Milton Keynes on those lines. I very much hope that the private sector will do more in the future to expand the opportunities for shared ownership.
  Here I would like to commend two of the building societies, the Woolwich Equitable, and Nationwide Anglia, for their contribution to helping first-time buyers through a shared equity scheme. The societies lend on terms which mean lower payments by the borrower, in return for giving up part of the growth in the value of the home they buy. That is a welcome addition to the alternatives available to first-time buyers, and I hope that their present schemes, being run on a limited scale, will prove successful and that more will follow.
  My hon. Friend mentioned the cost and length of time involved in the conveyancing process, and he knows, this is a matter in which the Government have consistently taken an interest. We are naturally concerned to ensure that house buying is as quick, simple and easy as is practicable. I believe that we have made considerable progress in that area since we took office in 1979. Perhaps I could remind hon. Members of some of the improvements that have come about in the process of buying a house, which enable would-be first-time buyers to buy homes more quickly and at less cost.
  My noble and learned Friend Lord Hailsham, who was then the Lord Chancellor, set up a committee on conveyancing in February 1984 which produced a report in January 1985 on conveyancing simplifications. Following that report, my noble and learned Friend asked the Law Commission to establish a conveyancing standing

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  committee, with a continuing remit to seek and promote ways of improving the conveyancing system. The conveyancing standing committee has done some very useful work, which I believe will be of genuine help to people trying to buy their first house, who are daunted by the conveyancing process.
  The committee has, for instance, produced useful proposals on pre-contract deposits. The idea is that the prospective purchaser and the prospective seller agree to put down deposits in advance of exchanging contracts on the property. If one party pulls out of the deal, he or she forfeits the original deposit.
  The conveyancing standing committee also published a valuable report on the Scottish system of buying and selling property. Many first-time buyers suffer from the length of time that it takes from the point when their offer is accepted by the seller to the exchange of binding contracts. The difficulty is, of course, that the seller may pull out before contracts are exchanged, but after the purchaser has incurred search fees, solicitors' fees and survey costs.
  Under the Scottish system, binding contracts are exchanged much earlier in the process. Many people have not realised that there is no reason in law why this system should not he adopted in England. If buyers and sellers want to use the Scottish system, they can do so. The value of the committee's report is that it brings out that fact and explains how conveyancers and their clients can use it. It should be said that there are advantages and disadvantages to the Scottish system. The reason for delaying the exchange of contracts in England is that there are advantages to both parties. However, I hope that those involved in the house-buying process—both the individuals and those advising them—will consider whether the Scottish system would be better suited to their needs and their concerns.
  I believe that we are also seeing progress in the area of speeding up local authority searches, an area which has given much concern to hon. Members and to the public at large. For many people attempting to buy their first home, this is the stumbling block, especially in the competitive house market in London, the south-east and other areas with rapidly rising house prices. We must not forget that this is not a universal problem. Many local authorities can already respond quickly and efficiently. However, there are some authorities whose response time could be shorter. The solution which has often been recommended is to computerise the records which local authorities need to draw on, in responding to searches.
  Until recently, that solution was very sensible in theory, but local authorities did not feel able to implement computerisation because of the costs. but this obstacle
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  may now have been overcome. At least one private company is now offering a computerisation package to local authorities without any need for expenditure on the part of the local authority. The initial capital outlay is funded by a private investor, and is recouped by a premium on each search fee. I am sure that most house buyers who might otherwise face a critical delay would be prepared to pay something extra for the prospect of a speedy search.
  We have, of course, ended the solicitors' monopoly on conveyancing by introducing competition from a new profession of licensed conveyancers. There is no doubt that, with the prospect of competition, conveyancing charges have fallen dramatically. some commentators have estimated a fall of about 30 per cent. Competition on conveyancing has also been enhanced by the relaxation of the rules on advertising by solicitors.
  A further benefit to first-time buyers has been the staged reduction that we have made in the level of stamp duty. As hon. Members know, stamp duty often vies with solicitors' fees as the single most expensive administrative cost for the house buyer, especially in the south of the country. The Government have reduced stamp duty in successive Budgets. When we first came to office in 1979, it ranged between 1 and 2 per cent. for houses costing more than £20,000, on a sliding scale. Since 1984, there has been a common level for all those house purchases over £30,000.
  Perhaps we take it for granted that finance for house purchase is much more readily available than in the past. The mortgage queues which blighted so many people's aspirations are now a thing of the past. Increased competition from banks and new specialist mortgage lenders has meant that those seeking a mortgage have a wider variety of sources and types of mortgage.
  Lastly, I should like to say something about renting. My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow and my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) were quite right about the role which the private rented sector can play in meeting housing needs. A couple of years ago, some commentators suggested that some people felt they had to get into home ownership sooner than they would really have liked, simply because of the lack of decent rented housing. They were people who could afford to pay quite a lot more than fair rents, but perhaps not as much as a mortgage would have cost.
  What we need for these people is a revival by the private sector of the rented housing market. That will give them a genuine choice between owning and renting. The measures in the Housing Bill are designed to make private renting a real possibility again, by sweeping away rent controls for new lettings. Landlords will have the opportunities to offer a decent product at a reasonable price.

  Shipbuilding (Lower Clyde)
  10.15 am
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: The shipbuilding and marine engineering industry is of considerable importance to the economy of the lower Clyde. The industry once dominated the local economy, but in recent years it has suffered what appears to be a remorseless decline. That fall from economic grace, coupled with losses suffered by other local traditional industries, is reflected in the unemployment statistics for my constituency.
  Male unemployment is about 25·5 per cent. The overall rate—in both cases I use Department of Employment figures—is about 19·9 per cent. In the most dismal of all league tables—unemployment in parliamentary constituencies—my constituency is 15th from the top. I want my constituency to tumble down that league table. I want it to be at the bottom of the unemployment league.
  It is my firm belief that if the Government take the decisions that I advocate upwards of 1,000 highly skilled jobs for adult males could be created within the next 15 months in the shipbuilding and marine engineering industry on the lower Clyde.
  During the Prime Minister's visit to Greenock seven weeks ago she claimed that the newly announced enterprise zone on the lower Clyde would lead to the creation of about 3,000 jobs over the next 10 years. Naturally I welcomed that announcement. However, the enterprise zone will create entirely different jobs from those that I want to discuss. To be more specific, I am referring to job opportunities that could be realised within the near future at Clark Kincaid at Greenock, Appledore Ferguson at Port Glasgow and Scott Lithgow at Port Glasgow.
  I readily accept that the market plays a critical role in the scheme of things. I agreed with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he said last week:
  "The prospects of having a viable shipbuilding industry, which we would all like to see, remain extremely uncertain because of the conditions of world markets.—[Official Report, 19 May 1988; Vol. 133, c. 1114.]
  No one with any kind of knowledge of shipping and shipbuilding could dispute that observation. I believe that the British shipbuilding industry will for ever remain a shadow of its former self. The epicentre of shipbuilding is to be found firmly in the south-east of Asia.
  British ship owners have a major role to play in the market. They should order their vessels from British yards. Given the continuing decline of shipbuilding in Great Britain, some British ship owners will soon be able to say, to their secret relief, that no British shipyard has the capability to build the specialist ships that they require.
  It will be interesting to see where BP, which has flagged out its tanker fleet, will place its orders for new vessels. Recently, Sir Peter Walters, chairman of BP, was whingeing about the possibility of a Kuwaiti national being appointed to the BP board. He might elicit more sympathy from the maritime communities of Britain if he were to re-register his fleet under the British flag and order his replacement vessels from British yards.
  I return to the subject of Greenock and Clark Kincaid. A marine engineering capability should be an important element in a domestic shipbuilding industry. In that context, it is worth noting that Harland and Wolff has mothballed its marine engineering facility—I refer to the
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  British shipbuilding industry and not to that of the United Kingdom. British-built vessels, that require slow-speed engines or large medium-speed diesels should be fitted with engines built in Great Britain. Clark Kincaid is an outstanding builder of marine engines, and it is important to remember that it does not receive shipbuilding intervention fund support. It has completed all its engine contracts on time, within cost budgets, and to a very high standard of quality control. At present, it is building the engines for the two container ships being constructed at Govan for the Chinese Government. I am able to inform the Minister, with justifiable pride, that the Chinese superintendent engineers billeted in Greenock are delighted with the test bed performance of the first of those two engines—and I mean delighted, for I am not indulging in hyperbole. That first engine will be delivered to Govan in August, when the ship will be ready for its installation.
  The quality of Clark Kincaid's engines is matched by that of its industrial relations. In my view—and I have some experience of these matters—the yard has a first-class shop stewards' committee, ably led by my old and trusted friend councillor Robert Jackson. However, the firm is handicapped by the growing tendency within the EC to order marine engines outwith the Community. The Minister knows that 94 slow-speed engines were imported into the EC in the period 1981–86. From 1981 until the present, Clark Kincaid has manufactured only 23 engines. Over that same period the company has suffered a 62 per cent. reduction in its labour force. In addition, there have been long periods of short-time working.
  It appears that some EC shipyards, and particularly those in West Germany and Denmark—and I am trying not to be a little Scotlander—have received state subsidies to close the cost gap with the far east. The supply of engines to the EC at uneconomic prices from the far east and from Poland should be investigated by the European Commission. I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that matter.
  There is a fine relationship between Kincaid's and Govan. I was particularly interested to hear what the Chancellor of the Duchy said in last week's debate about the negotiations between Govan. British Shipbuilders, and the Norwegian firm of Kvaerner Industries. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said:
  "I can point out to the House that not only has Kvaerner made it clear that it would contemplate two orders for gas-carrying ships in the yard—and there must be hopes of more orders—but it wants to make west Scotland the centre of its gas technology business. If that were to happen, there would be prospects for many more jobs on the Clyde."—[Official Report, 19 May 1988; Vol. 133, c. 1115.]
  I seek today a ministerial assurance that Kvaerner will be persuaded by the Government to buy the liquid petroleum gas vessel engines from Clark Kincaid, which is just down the Clyde from Govan. Will the Government impress upon the Norwegians the need to order those engines from Greenock if they are successful in their bid for Govan? If that were part of the deal struck between British Shipbuilders and Kvaerner, Kincaid's job prospects would be enhanced, and such an agreement would ripen Kincaid's chances of being purchased in turn. If Kincaid, like Govan, is to be sold off, naturally I want the best possible deal for my constituents who work there.
  Another deal in the offing would be of much greater importance to Clark Kincaid than the Kvaerner deal and it would involve the company recruiting 200 to 300 more workers. I refer to negotiations between North East

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  Shipbuilders Ltd. and a Cuban shipping company for an order for 10 vessels worth more than £100 million. Derek Harris, the industrial editor of The Times, wrote on Monday:
  "Negotiations on the Cuban order are expected to reach a crucial stage early next month,"—
  I believe he has the timing wrong, but that is what he wrote—
  "but what is likely to prove the biggest hurdle is whether BS can persuade the Government to put in cash under the European Economic Community's intervention route."
  On Tuesday, the industrial correspondent of Lloyd's List emphasised the importance to Clark Kincaid of that order when he wrote:
  "The Cuban order would not only be a boost to NESL but it would also mean the possibility of a 10 Sulzer 5RTA 48 engine order for the BS engine building subsidiary, Clark Kincaid, which is also up for sale."
  If Kincaid were to receive the Kvaerner and Cuban orders for 12 or 13 engines, not only would the company be able to retain jobs but it would need to recruit more than 200 highly skilled men. Incidentally, the Minister well knows that a large number of companies scattered throughout Great Britain would benefit enormously from those two deals.
  United Kingdom suppliers of marine equipment likely to benefit would include Peter Brotherhood of Peterborough, which manufactures turbo alternators, NEI Clarke Chapman at Gateshead, producing cranes; Green's of Wakefield, which produces boilers; Stone Manganese of Birkenhead, which manufactures propellers; British Steel, for the plate and the bar needed; and Marconi of Chelmsford, which produces navigational gear.
  What is the Government's attitude towards the negotiations between British Shipbuilders and the Cubans? Is it, as some of my hon. Friends fear, that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the Chancellor of the Duchy are reluctant to give their support to British Shipbuilders? One of my hon. Friends has been informed by a number of journalists that clear signals are being given by the Department of Trade and Industry that the Government may refuse even a 28 per cent. contract subsidy under the EEC sixth directive.
  Is there any truth in that speculation, and is the Department reluctant financially to support that deal, if it is struck? What is the Government's position? Will the Minister give me plain answers to those worrying questions and concerns? I offer no apology for voicing those anxieties, because they are felt by many, not only in the north-east but on the lower Clyde. It is plain that the Cuban deal could have an enormously beneficial effect for many hundreds of my constituents, let alone the people of Sunderland.
  Appledore Ferguson of Port Glasgow is another yard, mentioned by the Chancellor the other day, which may be sold in the near future. If that happens, I want the best possible deal for its 315 employees, for they, too, would be purchased, and it is right and proper that I should defend their interests. Can the Minister tell me anything about the approaches by potential purchasers? As with Clark Kincaid, I do not want any encouragement to be given to asset strippers, who are about as welcome as loan sharks in my community.
  This is a specialist yard, or rather one of two such yards called Appledore Ferguson. The other is in Devon. The two yards specialise in ferries and aggregate dredgers, and there is an important niche in the market for both yards.
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  For example, the Devon yard has received two orders for aggregate dredgers, and the company is also negotiating an order for a ferry for Mauritius. Ferguson is the only British yard on a short list of three. I believe that the Government have promised ATP financial assistance, but can the Minister quicken the signing of the deal? If it is successful, the vessel will be built in the Newark yard in Port Glasgow. Can the Minister say anything about the negotiations? Will he also say what information he has about the decision of the Orkney Islands council to place orders for two or more ferries in the near future?
  Given that Scottish Office money is involved, I suppose that that question ought to be directed to the Secretary of State for Scotland. Ferguson, however, is keenly interested in the orders. I have been told that the islands council is seeking tenders from foreign shipyards, which is an extraordinary state of affairs. Has the Minister any information on that? Can he also give any information about the contract for a new British Antarctic research survey vessel? That order will also be keenly chased by a number of British yards. Naturally, I hope that Ferguson, with its research ship construction experience, will secure the order, but I should like to hear something about the Department's involvement in the tendering. Other ship owners are showing an interest in the possibility of vessels being built by Appledore Ferguson, and I remain confident that the yard will survive—and, I hope, prosper.
  Scott Lithgow, unfortunately, has had a chequered history. As the Minister well knows, it is now on a care-and-maintenance basis; in other words, it is close to being mothballed. Between March 1984 and today, employment at the yard has dropped from about 5,000 to just 100, with the loss of only two days' work owing to industrial disputes. That is a remarkable record, given the dreadful changes in the yard's fortunes. Scott Lithgow has the best shipbuilding union agreement in Great Britain, with complete flexibility and interchangeability of trade within the men's individual skills. The yard was treated very shabbily by the Ministry of Defence recently. As a result of that squalid treatment it lost its naval design and building capability, and can no longer tender for such orders.
  I have to say, with considerable regret, that there is no prospect of offshore work for the yard. The only recent merchant work contract was the conversion of the Cunard container ship Atlantic Conveyor. That was an astonishing success story, which showed clearly what the yard can now do when given the chance. The contract was completed on time and to budget, 65 days elapsing between the arrival of the vessel and its departure. The steel work productivity achieved was better than that of any other British yard, and as good as the best in Europe. Incidentally, Scott Lithgow beat one of the conversions undertaken by a yard in South Korea, although in fairness I should point out that the South Koreans were hampered by a strike for better terms and conditions. What used to be known as the British malaise is now becoming the Asian malaise.
  As a result of being denied access to intervention fund support, Scott Lithgow has had to pursue other types of contract. At present it is pursuing two orders, one for a floating jetty to be built for the Royal Naval armaments depot at Coulport, across the Clyde from me, and the other for a floating hotel for Antigua. On the floating jetty contract, it must be said that the consultants to the Property Services Agency, Rendell, Palmer and Tritton,

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  are civil engineers and unashamedly biased in favour of concrete. Scott Lithgow, along with Harland and Wolff, bid for a jetty to be built of steel. In my view, there are major problems associated with the use of concrete in that kind of environment. For example, alterations either during building or later will be very difficult. It is possible to drill or burn a hole through steel, but what is to be done with concrete? There could be a corrosion of steel reinforcing rods in later life, a problem encountered recently in the construction of the Tay bridge. Nevertheless, I think that the PSA will plump for a concrete structure, which, I regret to say, is bad news for Scott Lithgow and Harland and Wolff.
  Scott Lithgow's submission on the floating hotel project must be close to arriving on the Minister's desk, and I am confident that his platoon in the Box will be able to help him. I almost called it a battalion, but "platoon" is more appropriate. There is an opportunity for Scott Lithgow to become a leader in this new form of maritime construction. The only other floating hotel in service is moored above the Great Barrier Reef, and is much smaller and much less luxurious than the one sought by Scott Lithgow's American buyers. A number of international hoteliers are planning to order similar hotels.
  Scott Lithgow, if given the opportunity, would build the first of the luxury suite accommodation type of floating hotel. The competition from Europe, I need hardly say, is fierce and heavily subsidised. Can the Minister tell me what is to happen to the Scott Lithgow submission? Does it meet with ministerial favour and approval? The people of Inverclyde are anxious to hear the answers to those questions.
  I estimate that if the project goes ahead, Scott Lithgow will need to recruit upwards of 800 people. With my estimate of Clark Kincaid's labour requirement, that gives a figure of 1,000 new jobs for the lower Clyde. Here is a superb opportunity for the Government to grasp. I know that it is the easiest thing in the world for a Back Bencher to offer solutions to problems which seem to bedevil Ministers—the Scottish Nationalists indulge in such behaviour all the time—but I assure the Minister that I am not engaging in that stupid game. On the contrary, as an honest and open critic. of the Government, I genuinely believe that the case that I have presented today is a good one. The Government have little support in Scotland. An increasing number of Scots believe that the Prime Minister and her Ministers secretly despise us for our electoral rebelliousness.
  Even at this late stage, the Government could display the magnanimity that was extolled by the Prime Minister earlier this week when she addressed the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
  In her Greenock speech, the Prime Minister referred to 3,000 jobs being created on the lower Clyde. I welcome that announcement. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster referred to jobs being created on the Clyde by the Kvaerner takeover. I am delighted to hear that if the takeover goes ahead, jobs will be created. I offer the Government the prospect of 1,000 highly skilled jobs for workers to be recruited within the next 12 months. How will they react?
  10.39 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs (Mr. John Butcher): I thank the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) for taking the opportunity to raise a matter which is important not just to him and to his constituents but to many people on the Clyde.
  It is best to begin with something on which we can agree. The hon. Gentleman and I share a commitment to the creation and multiplication of highly skilled jobs in his part of the country. Engineering skills are embedded in the very chromosomes of the people of that region. The skills that he commended at such places as Clark Kincaid are well appreciated all over the world.
  The question is how to produce a framework within which jobs can be maximised and which can give to the various yards and sites along the Clyde the chance to succeed in what we all agree is a very tough market which has been vigorously attacked, particularly by Pacific basin countries. We both agree that the creation of highly skilled jobs and the retention of those jobs is important for the region and that policies introduced either on a pan-European basis or on a United Kingdom basis should be directed towards providing help, bearing in mind that we have to live in the real world, the competitive world.
  The hon. Gentleman voiced his concern about the future of two British Shipbuilders' sites—the Ferguson yard and the Clark Kincaid engine building facility. Between them, those sites support over 800 jobs and are therefore significant in the economic life of the lower Clyde. Ferguson retains a strong local identity, despite its merger with Appledore, British Shipbuilders' Devon yard, in 1986. Both yards have substantial work in progress. Ferguson is building a second Caledonian MacBrayne ferry which will be delivered in mid-1989. That vessel follows the first Cal Mac ferry which will be in service this summer. Ferguson does not build only ferries. It has a wide product range, including small product tankers, cargo vessels, tugs and offshore supply vessels.
  The Clark Kincaid site at Greenock is the sole survivor of British Shipbuilders' engine building companies. Its sister yard at Wallsend on Tyneside was closed in 1986 as part of British Shipbuilders' restructuring programme. Employment at Clark Kincaid is currently 546, with an increase of about 50 people over the past 12 months. Clark Kincaid can build up to five engines at a time and is building two engines for the Chinese container ships that are under construction at British Shipbuilders' Govan yard. It has also recently won a £1·3 million order for part of a slow-speed diesel engine, together with components, to be delivered to the Belgian shipbuilder, Cockerill. That order will provide work until the end of the year.
  Engines for use in land-based power generation schemes are another string to Clark Kincaid's bow. It has recently completed such an engine for use in the Cayman Islands and is looking at other opportunities around the world, but with its diesel engines it is not resting on its laurels. It is winning contracts for general engineering work, including work in the nuclear industry, as part of a diversification strategy. Recent examples include twelve 400-tonne winches for the offshore industry and blast-proof doors for power stations in the United Kingdom.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said during the shipbuilding debate on

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  19 May that British Shipbuilders had received a number of inquiries about the purchase of the Ferguson yard. Some of those inquiries have been from potential bidders who are interested in the whole Appledore Ferguson company. Some approaches have been for Ferguson only. Discussions are at an early stage, but my right hon. and learned Friend said that he was optimistic about a successful conclusion, a view with which I concur.
  There have been four expressions of interest in Clark Kincaid, including an approach from the management who wish to buy out the facility. Negotiations began just over a week ago. All the approaches were entirely unsolicited, as was the approach by Kvaerner Industries to buy Govan, which my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster announced to the House on 18 April. All this is very encouraging. It shows that the yards have the real prospect of a future in the private sector. We welcome that, but the way ahead will present some challenges.
  I should like to refer to the background to the industry before dealing with the hon. Gentleman's points. The United Kingdom has not been a major player in the world market for merchant shipbuilding for some years. Like most others, we have been swamped by the far east yards. The Japanese have succeeded because of their much greater productivity and efficiency. The South Koreans succeeded initially because they offered simple ships at very low prices, but they are now establishing themselves as builders of more complex ships, too. The Japanese are beginning to get out of shipbuilding, but they still retain a formidable presence in the market and will do so for many years to come. The Koreans are moving up market, and coming in behind are the Chinese, the Brazilians and some Soviet bloc countries.
  The major Japanese yards have just completed a centrally agreed capacity-cutting programme, which has taken Japanese capacity in the major yards from 6 million compensated gross tonnage to 4·8 million CGT. South Korea has less capacity—around 3·5 million CGT. The South Korean response to the crisis has not been to consider any cut. It was recently announced that the large Hyundai yard, previously devoted to ship repair work, is to be used in future for new building. The South Korean yards have been cutting their work forces recently. They have scope for significant increases in throughput as they develop their efficiency and productivity. Moves on mainland China suggest that China, too, will be looking at its capacity and will probably make vigorous attacks on international markets.
  Against that background—I make no apology for referring to it again—the new owners of yards on the Clyde will have to be mindful of efficiency. Their costs will have to be pared rigorously. I am not, however, trying to paint a bleak picture. These people know their business. Their judgment is that they can make a go of the yards. The Kvaerner interest in Govan is a case in point.
  Kvaerner first approached British Shipbuilders a couple of months ago. It was looking for a new site on which to construct additions to its fleet of gas-carrying ships. Kvaerner Industries has long been a well-established and respected Norwegian company in the oil and gas-related sectors. It now wishes to move offshore because building costs have become too high in Norway. It has a high regard for engineering and shipbuilding on the Clyde. As the hon. Gentleman will know, a connection, going back a long time, is that senior shipbuilding experts
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  in Kvaerner Industries trained at Scottish universities, so they know the area and its culture. That is why the company has chosen Govan as its preferred new shipyard.
  I cannot say how the negotiations will end because the discussions are still in progress, but progress is being made and a valuable first meeting with the work force has taken place. If the negotiations are successful, Kvaerner will bring a number of new orders to Govan that should provide work well into the future.
  I have dwelt at some length on the prospects for Govan because I know that the yard's future is of keen interest to people along the Clyde. What is more, there is a strong chance that Kvaerner will make the area a centre for its gas-carrying technology. I am sure that that would be very good news for the hon. Gentleman.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned Kvaerner's potential purchase of engines from Clark Kincaid. That will depend on Clark Kincaid putting in a competitive hid for work immediately in prospect and for the medium term. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not want the Government to issue some kind of edict saying that the company must order engines only from Clark Kincaid. Kvaerner believes that Clark Kincaid's engineering is first class. It is a magnificent engineer and just along the river. We hope that it will build strong relationships with Govan in the new dimension to business on the river, should the negotiations with Kvaerner lie successful.
  It has always been the Government's policy to return British Shipbuilders' yards to the private sector as circumstances permit. In the meantime, we have been fully committed to the support of the yards. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy reminded the House of the extent of that support during the debate on 19 May. This is not the occasion—the hon. Gentleman did not make it the occasion—to bandy figures about levels of support provided by different Governments, but it is worth reminding the House that, since 1979, we have spent well over £1,850 million in contract subsidy and other forms of support for the corporation. Last year alone, £20,000 was spent for every job in British Shipbuilders. That is a great deal of support.
  The Ferguson and Clark Kincaid yards in the hon. Gentleman's constituency have had their commensurate share of funding. The Scott Lithgow tale is well known. I shall take the case of the Ferguson yard in its various company forms over the years. As Ferguson-Ailsa and now as Ferguson Appledore, its accumulated trading losses until 1986–87 amounted to more than £33 million. That loss had to be met by the taxpayer. The figure does not include the intervention fund grants that were provided in support of individual contracts. During the same period, such grants were worth another £12 million for the Ferguson companies. Total support has therefore been about £45 million. That is a lot of money.
  Clark Kincaid has also made substantial losses—£42 million to 1986–87—although I appreciate that not all of the loss is attributable to the Clark Kincaid Greenock works as it now exists. While part of British Shipbuilders, Scott Lithgow also needed massive support. Up to the point of sale, losses in that one company totalled a colossal £234 million.
  The Scott Lithgow yard has suffered from a lack of new oil-related work recently and, as the hon. Gentleman reminded us, employment is therefore down to only 100 jobs. New work outside the oil sector is being sought, including a rig conversion to a floating hotel for use in

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  Antigua. That may be a budding new industry. I note that one such vessel, if I may use that word, has gone into service on the Great Barrier Reef off the coast of Australia.
  Scott Lithgow was privatised specifically as an oil rig builder, not as a merchant shipyard. I say that because it is germane to the point about the intervention fund, which the hon. Gentleman has pursued vigorously. It would make no sense to support merchant shipbuilding at Scott Lithgow by offering subsidies when there is already massive overcapacity in the world. The floating hotel for Antigua will probably require aid and trade provision support. The case for such support is being considered carefully, but I cannot give a commitment today that support will be offered. The hon. Gentleman will know that, when considering development aid, we consider the industrial case, the commercial case and the development case. All those issues will be brought to bear.
  Ferguson is on the short list for the order for the Mauritius ferry. That is encouraging, but there is stiff competition from West Germany, South Korea and China. We hoped that the order would have been placed by March this year, but the Mauritians changed the specification and the order is now not likely to be placed much before mid-August.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy said on 19 May that we are prepared to discuss support for new orders with potential private sector purchasers of British Shipbuilders' yards. We should have to exercise considerable caution over requests for support from British Shipbuilders, which has made very heavy losses on contracts in the past, over and above intervention fund support.
  There is much talk in the press of the order for a series of standard cargo ships, and I know that British Shipbuilders has had discussions with the Cubans, but no proposals have yet come in and ECGD has not been asked to cover the business. The customer has needed substantial price support in the past, so we should have to examine any follow-on project carefully. I cannot say who would get the engines or, indeed, any other sub-contracted items, but I listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman said about the implications for other potential suppliers. Clark Kincaid supplied the engines for the previous Cuban order, so it is understandable that it should entertain hopes of further such business. I have to say, however, that that is a commercial matter.
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  As for dumping marine engines into the European Community from non-EC countries, it is up to the companies involved to mount an anti-dumping case if they consider their own business to have been adversely affected by unfairly priced imports. I stress that the price of the imports must be lower than is normally charged by the companies that produce the goods concerned. Low prices are perfectly above board if they represent normal commercial practice. The hon. Gentleman has asserted, however, that that is not the case.
  There is no reason why the European industry should not make an approach to the Commission. The procedure is well established, but it is up to the industry to make its case. Nevertheless, my officials are available for guidance and advice.
  Licensing restrictions are relevant to Clark Kincaid. It is discussing matters with Sulzer and Man-B and W, who are its licensers. I understand that the talks are proving successful. I hope that there will be a satisfactory outcome.
  The hon. Gentleman said that the Scott Lithgow yard has suffered from the lack of new oil-related work recently and that, in consequence, employment is down to only 100. I went around the yard some three years ago. I suspect that it is now a much quieter place. That is sad. New work outside the oil sector is being sought, as I have already said. Scott Lithgow was privatised as an oil rig builder, not as a merchant shipyard, which is why it has no access to the intervention fund.
  The Orkney Islands council orders will go out to competitive tender. We are not aware of any bids from overseas being invited. As for the British Antartic survey ship, interested yards are being invited to bid. Ferguson should register its interest with the consultants. I assume that that is in hand. The case for aid and trade provision support for the Antigua floating hotel is being considered carefully. I have mentioned the criteria involved and I am afraid that I cannot give a commitment today that support will be offered. The Property Services Agency has received a number of bids for the Coulport jetty, including one from Scott Lithgow and Cementation. The Property Services Agency did not consider the bid competitive and the companies have been told.
  The House has appreciated the way in which the hon. Gentleman has presented his case on behalf of his constituents. I hope that I have answered most of his questions, but I shall examine the record of our exchange and, if there are any lacunae, I shall of course write to him with appropriate further details.

  Harland and Wolff
  11 am
  Mr. Peter Robinson: The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) spoke with considerable knowledge and feeling about the effect of current conditions in shipbuilding and marine engineering, particularly on the lower Clyde, and outlined part of the history of shipbuilding in Scotland. The shipbuilding industry in Northern Ireland goes back to 1636, although many could trace its origins back several centuries before that. Shipbuilding is a major part of the Northern Ireland economy. I know that the Minister flew back from Northern Ireland last night. If he had had to make his way by plane this morning as I did he might have decided that it would have been quicker to go by boat, as we had to circle London for at least an hour before we were allowed to land.
  Changes in transportation clearly affect shipping. Nine years ago this month, when I was elected to the House, the shipbuilding industry was suffering the impact of the oil crisis. The outlook was particularly gloomy for my constituency, which depends heavily on shipbuilding, not only for jobs in the yard but for the supply and sub-contracting work that flow directly from the industry. So depressing was the picture that the newspaper headline writers—not always the most enthusiastic or cheerful of characters—heralded the shipyard's closure as a very real possibility. We read headlines such as:
  "Yard shuts soon if no orders come in"
  and
  "Harland and Wolff faces Tory axe"
  and
  "Harland and Wolff—does it have a future?"
  and again
  "Harland's fight for survival."
  For many years after 1979 such headlines appeared in our newspapers almost weekly. It was suggested that the closure of the shipyard was just around the corner. Harland and Wolff led a hand-to-mouth existence. I can recall many occasions when we were waiting for an eleventh hour decision—whether from BP, the Blue Star Line, or the Ministry of Defence—in the hope that we would get a vital order that would maintain shipbuilding in Belfast.
  It was recognised then that there would be an upturn in the shipbuilding market. Then, as now, it was a matter of hanging on for that upturn. Those in the shipbuilding industry believe that it will happen in or around the 1990s, and I do not think that the expectations are misplaced. Several indicators suggest a brighter hope for shipbuilding on the horizon. First, there has been a vast reduction in laid-up tonnage over the past few years. In 1983 it accounted for about 18 per cent. of the world's fleet whereas it has now been reduced to 3 per cent. to 4 per cent. Secondly, both new build and second-hand prices have increased quite substantially—albeit admittedly from a low level—and there are sound forecasts that the trend will continue.
  Thirdly, a significant percentage of the world's fleet is nearing the end of its useful life; 60 per cent. of the world's supply tonnage and more than 70 per cent. of its tanker tonnage is over 10 years old. Moreover, 57 per cent. of the fleet is in the 11 to 15-year-old class and that should lead to considerable demand for replacement over the next five years. Furthermore, the differential in price between the
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  British and European shipbuilding industry, and the far eastern yards is beginning to narrow. In that sense, I take issue with the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs who answered the previous debate. It is clear that yards in the far east are beginning to encounter new problems. The exchange rates for the Japanese yen and the South Korean won have made the position of those countries less advantageous. There have been considerable problems of industrial unrest in South Korea with demands for higher wages. Over the past year, wages in South Korea have increased by 40 per cent.
  I am not saying that the gap has closed, but there are signs that it is closing. Last year, the differential between the prices that could be offered by European yards and by Japanese and South Korean yards ranged from about 48 per cent. except in one respect—for cruise liners, where the differential was only 16 per cent. The only ships falling within the 28 per cent. specified in the EEC directive on intervention funding would be cruise liners and more sophisticated ships. As the gap narrows and problems continue to arise in the Japanese and South Korean yards, those countries will be forced to increase prices still further, and it will become more difficult for them to keep their prices down artificially.
  It is towards cruise liners and more sophisticated ships that the managers of Harland and Wolff have directed their attention because they believe that they can be most competitive in that sector. The Ultimate Dream contract is a key component to a better future for Harland and Wolff. For once it is not a matter of obtaining or gaining an order. The order is sitting on the table. Instead. it is a matter of the Government establishing whether they are prepared to forward the standard funding permitted under the European Community regulations. Any other shipbuilding country with the building capacity to carry out that contract would grasp the opportunity with both hands, and yards in both France and Japan have been attempting to wrestle the order and unseat the Belfast firm.
  Lest anyone is unaware of the position, let me make it clear that the Ultimate Dream contract is not the product of a cosy backroom deal between Harland and Wolff and the ship owner. It is the result of a design and build competition with other yards world wide. I recognise that the Government must make calculations, and that they await a study of the figures from the yard before they can make a decision. Although I expect that the figures will not be available until next week, I urge the Minister to inject a little enthusiasm into the Government's attitude and approach to the project.
  Does the Minister accept that winning the order would open great possibilities for Harland and Wolff? Does he agree that a new concept such as the Ultimate Dream will present an unavoidable challenge to cruise operators, who must keep up with improved standards and increased facilities if they are to get their share of the market? If he accepts that, he must recognise that other cruise operators will have to modernise their fleets. Does the Minister accept that there is a potential for the cruise liner market to take off? If he accepts that, it follows logically that the builders of the Ultimate Dream will be in the lead when that move comes.
  Does the Minister recognise that the order would represent four years' work for Northern Ireland—a region that has the highest unemployment in the kingdom— and that it will maintain thousands of jobs in the United

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  Kingdom? He will know that 1,200 firms in Great Britain and more than 700 firms in Northern Ireland are likely to benefit from the contract. It will help to maintain and, we hope, increase the 4,000 jobs in the shipyard, plus 1,500 jobs in support firms in Ulster as well as more than 4,000 jobs in Great Britain. More than £160 million worth of orders would be placed on the mainland United Kingdom if the contract went to Harland and Wolff—orders for steel, other materials, components, equipment, insurances here in London and sub-contracting work. The deal will be good not only for Northern Ireland but for the United Kingdom.
  In the past year, Harland and Wolff spent about £75 million with outside suppliers. Of that, £15 million was spent in Northern Ireland, £55 million in Great Britain and £6 million overseas. Of the £55 million, 30 per cent. was spent in the south-east, especially in Greater London, on insurances and on much of the electronics needed in the yard—25 per cent. was spent in Scotland—and 20 per cent. was spent in the north and north-east, concentrated in traditional shipbuilding industries, especially engineering. The project will benefit all parts of the United Kingdom.
  It is estimated that the total tax revenue from Harland and Wolff and its supplier companies, above that which would occur if the yard was not getting business and its employees were receiving benefits, is £20 million a year. That money goes into the Treasury. Interestingly, the yard is looking for about that amount from the intervention fund to secure the contract. The Minister should not regard it as a loss. By maintaining jobs in the shipyard and in the supplier companies, the Treasury will gain to exactly the same extent through tax, VAT and national insurance.
  When I mentioned my next point yesterday, the Minister concentrated more on personal remarks. That is not what I was suggesting. Does he accept that in many quarters the level of debate on the order has not been high? In some parts of the press it has verged on the scurrilous. Had the Minister been here for the entire debate on British shipbuilding last week, he would have heard—they were not exactly whispered—comments from hon. Members on both sides of the House implying a similarity between the failed De Lorean project and the Ultimate Dream. I am sure that he will wish to emphasise that there can be no comparison between the two. Unlike the car assembly industry, which was in Belfast for only a short time, shipbuilding is an integral part of the industrial structure of Northern Ireland and is familiar to workers there. It is not an innovation to the work force in the Province. The business styles of John Parker and Ravi Tikkoo do not fit comfortably with that of John De Lorean. The Minister will agree that such implications and uninformed comments are capable—if they were not so designed in the first place—of turning away customers. No other shipbuilding country would treat potential customers to such a barrage of abuse.
  Have either the Minister or his officials taken steps to reassure the customer that the subsidy application will be given a fair hearing? Would it worry the Minister if the customer went elsewhere? I have to ask such basic questions because the Minister and the Secretary of State have been uncharacteristically poker-faced on the whole issue of the Ultimate Dream contract.
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  I do not belong to the school of thought that closes its eyes to the role played by Government and the taxpayer in the survival of Harland and Wolff. I and the men of Harland and Wolff recognise that substantial sums have been allocated to shipbuilding in the Province. That very fact forces me to urge the Government positively to study the viability of the project, because it would be inexplicable if the Government funded the yard through a period of decline, when the prospects were grey and bleak, but held back now when hopes are dawning of a brighter prospect and there is evidence of a better future for Harland and Wolff.
  Logic demands that the project he supported. Moreover, the yard deserves and has earned support in view of the steps that it has taken during the past few years to strengthen its position. It has a first-class management team led by John Parker. No one disputes his capabilities and foresight. His ability is transforming the yard, and the spirit and morale of its work force is very much in evidence. The craftsmanship of the work force has never been in doubt. In the words of Ravi Tikoo, it is simply
  "the best in the world."
  Harland and Wolff takes second place to no yard in terms of quality and high standards.
  For the past four years, Harland and Wolff has been undergoing a change in strategy and direction. Many might say that a strategy change is not the most appropriate term to use. Perhaps major surgery would be more suitable. The company has been streamlined, and, while that process was necessary, the metamorphosis is always painful. It has reduced its work force from 9,000 in 1986 to 4,000 today.
  Rationalisation, modernisation, diversification and improved efficiency have been the guidelines for the new-look yard. Significant changes in company organisation and personnel have taken place from the boardroom down. New technology has been embraced and is as advanced as any to be found in the world. New construction methods are being employed, using modular techniques, quality assurance programmes, cost reduction programmes and computer-aided design and manufacturing systems, which take the yard to the forefront of the European shipbuilding industry.
  The adaptation of facilities, including the closure and demolition of older buildings, was initiated with the aim of moving the yard not only to high-tech design and build capability but to a highly competitive environment for the expected upturn in the 1990s. That approach has already shown success.
  The design and build of, undoubtedly, the world's most sophisticated ship, the 73,000-tonne displacement single well oil production ship for BP, designed to recover oil from the marginal fields in the North sea, is one example of the yard's new capability in action.
  Harland and Wolff has come from a position in 1982–83, when its trading losses per employee were three times greater than those of British Shipbuilders, to one where comparable losses are half that of the nationalised yards. The company has become more competitive.
  In spite of those achievements, the management regards the changes as an unfinished symphony, and recognises the need for constant updating. The cut in the work force and the reduction in the yard's area increase its viability, yet still it is the largest of the European yards and employs

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  more people. Those factors give Harland and Wolff a competitive edge, which will help the yard to take its share when the upturn in the market occurs.
  I urge the Minister to ensure that the order comes to the yard to bridge the gap between now and the shipbuilding revival in the 1990s. He will know that much of Harland and Wolff's deficit last year resulted from the restructuring programme and the redundancies that flowed directly from it. Few other organisations undergoing such major changes have been expected to absorb massive job cuts in such a short period of time.
  Does the Minister accept that the greatest incentive for increasing productivity is a substantial order book? It is human nature that, when men are on the last contract, they know that the harder they work the faster they will be out of a job.
  We must bear in mind that Harland and Wolff is not seeking more intervention funding than any European competitor would receive if it had won the order. It should be made clear that it is not a massive lump sum payment, as has been suggested in some quarters of the press. The contract would last for about four years and the funding would therefore be spread over that period.
  The Government are considering proposals from the Norwegians about the sale of Govan. Is not central to Kvaerner's willingness to purchase an understanding that intervention funding will be available from the Government? That should not be regarded as surprising or unrealistic as it is accepted practice among European shipbuilding nations to match far-eastern prices. In the past, even the far-eastern shipyards have operated policies of capturing orders at any price. I make no judgment on the Kvaerner bid, but surely a British-owned yard may expect no less favourable or generous treatment than the Norwegians?
  The innovative new concept of the Ultimate Dream project has been remarkably well received throughout the shipbuilding world, and is recognised as a major breakthrough in cruise shipping. It would therefore be a matter of major regret if any discouraging noise or negative comment were to come from the House or elsewhere that would cause a potential customer to look away from Belfast to one of our European competitors. Let us not forget that there is no United Kingdom competitor for the contract; Harland and Wolff is not taking it from another region of the United Kingdom. Indeed, it is bound to diminish Harland and Wolff's dependence on other orders that are being sought by British yards.
  The Government and the House must face two inescapable questions. Are we prepared to let the order go? Are we prepared to hand it over to our foreign competitors, and with it the prestige of further similar orders? To do so would effectively remove the United Kingdom from the large passenger ship market.
  Do not let the rules of doctrinaire economic policy stop this order coming to Belfast. If the Government want Britain to rule the waves, they will have to waive the rules.
  Support for the contract coming to Northern Ireland has come from Ulster Unionists and, I am pleased to say, the Social and Democratic Labour party and hon. Members of all parties. I trust that the Minister will say something that will cause us to feel that the thrust of the Government's approach is to make the Ultimate Dream a present-day reality.
  11.26 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Viggers): The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) has expressed his concern about the future of Harland and Wolff, which has been a major employer in Northern Ireland since the last century and has played a significant part in the local economy. I am, of course, aware of the concern felt by all about the future of the company and I shall address the extent of commitment that has been shown by the Government in supporting it.
  I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the level of debate on the proposed Ultimate Dream ship has not been high. Criticism has been levelled at the possibility of Harland and Wolff building it. I further agree with the hon. Gentleman that the yard and the customer, Mr. Tikkoo, deserve better than the criticism that has sometimes been levelled at the suggestion. I exempt from that criticism the way in which the hon. Gentleman presented his case. It was a model of the manner in which an hon. Member should submit a case on behalf of his constituents. I am happy that he had the good fortune to win a place in the Adjournment debate, which gives me an opportunity to respond.
  I acknowledge the rich history of Harland and Wolff and the part that it has played in the Northern Ireland community over the past 126 years. More than 1,700 ships have been built by the company, including many famous passenger ships such as the Olympic, the Southern Cross, and the Canberra.
  During the second world war, Harland and Wolff played an important role in the war effort and built over 250 naval and merchant ships. In addition to those new builds, the company repaired or converted over 22,000 ships in Belfast and its other locations. Employment at Belfast rose to over 30,000 during the war years, with over 20,000 employed at other locations throughout the United Kingdom.
  In the immediate post-war years, Harland and Wolff produced a greater tonnage of ships than any other British company and, in the three years 1946 to 1948, the company headed the world league of shipyard output. In the 1960s, it built Britain's first supertanker and achieved further success in launching the oil platform, Sea Quest.
  The 1970s were a traumatic time for shipbuilders worldwide, including Harland and Wolff, and orders became increasingly difficult to obtain. The facilities were best suited to building the types of ship that were no longer required in such numbers, and where competition from the far east was most severe.
  These sophisticated ships required new skills and approaches to work. With Government support, the company continued to rationalise its facilities and implemented sophisticated computer aided design and manufacture facilities. New systems of ship production, including the greater use of pre-outfitting, were introduced in an attempt to improve productivity.
  Despite the undoubted successes of the past, Harland and Wolff has not been immune from the more recent crisis facing the shipbuilding industry worldwide and particularly in western Europe. I recognise the efforts that have been made by the management and work force over the years to deal with the situation. Employment in the yard has fallen from 10,000 in the early 1970s to under 4,000. Some of that fall has been the result of declining

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  orders, but part has been the result of efforts to cut operating costs. The company has also altered its marketing strategy to seek to obtain orders for more sophisticated ships where the competition from the far east is currently less intense.
  As a consequence of the global changes in the industry, which I have described, Harland and Wolff has suffered severe financial difficulties over the past 20 years. Between 1966 and 1975, when Harland and Wolff was taken into public ownership, the company received some £60 million of public funds. Since 1975 it has received a further £450 million, of which approximately £240 million has been provided by the Government in the past five years alone.
  Every merchant order which the company has won recently has required significant support and there have been other losses due partly to overcapacity at the yard. In the year to 31 March 1988, the Government paid £58 million to Harland and Wolff and in the previous year the amount was £64 million. Those are very large sums of money, equating to almost £15,000 per employee per year, and they demonstrate the commitment which the Government have shown to the company.
  I should like to take this opportunity to stress the extent to which the Government have been supportive of Harland and Wolff. The company has been provided with the finance to acquire new facilities and every assistance to win orders. Ministers have been supportive in the effort to win orders for the shipyard. The problems which it is facing are linked to changes in the industry worldwide and are not attributable to any lack of support by the Government.
  As regards the present order book, Harland and Wolff recently completed the RFA Argus—a conversion of a standard container ship to an aviation training ship. That was the first major contract won by the company from the Ministry of Defence for many years and provided the opportunity to enter this sector of the market. The finished ship is, I believe, a very significant addition to the auxiliary fleet. It is the largest ship serving with the Royal Navy. The conversion proved to be more difficult than Harland and Wolff expected and, unfortunately, the ship was delivered much later than had been expected and there were cost overruns. Those extra costs are now the subject of negotiations with the Ministry of Defence.
  Work is now progressing on the single well oil production ship for British Petroleum, commonly known as SWOPS, which is one of the most technologically advanced ships ever planned. Construction is largely complete and the ship is now entering its complex commissioning phase in which the mass of sophisticated equipment which has been installed will be tested.
  Production delays and difficulties have been caused to a considerable extent by the failure of sub-contractors to provide the complex equipment on time. Sometimes it has been necessary to change the phasing of the production of the ship so that, instead of equipping the ship, as originally intended, with sophisticated computer and other equipment which was ready to be installed as the ship was being completed, it became necessary to cut holes in the ship to put in the computer and other equipment later. That obviously caused difficulties for the shipyard, but it is doing its best to overcome them and has been largely successful.
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  In April 1986 Harland and Wolff, after intense competition, won a contract to design and build the first of class auxiliary oiler replenishment vessel for the Ministry of Defence. The design of the ship has been largely completed and construction has commenced. This is the first whole ship procurement to be placed by the Ministry of Defence where the contractor is responsible for providing the whole ship, complete with weapons, for a fixed price. As it is the first such ship ordered in this manner, and as it is the first of class, both Harland and Wolff and the Ministry of Defence are having to deal with many new aspects. It is an exciting project, and Harland's progress is being closely monitored.
  The hon. Member referred to the major potential cruise liner order with Mr. Ravi Tikkoo. The design produced for Harland and Wolff was ambitious and imaginative. It was a substantial achievement to be selected by Mr. Tikkoo to carry the project forward. I concur with the hon. Member on this subject. I accept the importance of such a large project to Harland and Wolff and to Belfast. It will be a massive ship, the largest cruise liner ever constructed. I assure the hon. Member that the potential order has been given the serious response that he would wish and expect of the Government.
  My Department maintains close links with Harland and Wolff. Officials and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland have met Mr. Tikkoo. I cannot say, however, how the Government will respond to any approach relating to this ship. Harland and Wolff has still not yet completed its costings and has not made any formal application to my Department for contract support, nor to the Export Credits Guarantee Department for guarantees for credit facilities. I understand that the yard has asked sub-contractors to tender and give prices for certain components making up the ship. When those are amalgamated by Harland and Woff, the company will be able to produce its final detailed costings. As and when those costings are produced, they will be scrutinised by specialists on behalf of my Department. It will then be possible for us to appraise the ship. At this point, it is too early to say much more. I assure the hon. Member that the application will be thoroughly and carefully reviewed to determine whether the provision of any additional financial resources needed to win the order would represent good value for money in terms of Northern Ireland expenditure priorities.
  We are, of course, all anxious to develop projects that have the potential to create and sustain employment. I note from a recent Northern Ireland Economic Council survey that the total of direct and indirect employment generated by Harland and Wolff in Northern Ireland is between 5,300 and 5,800 staff. My Department's estimate of the indirect labour is rather lower, but I gave that figure because the hon. Member mentioned the number of people dependent on the Harland and Wolff yard. Although the record of the Government's commitment to the yard cannot be challenged, we have the obligation to ensure that the public funds required for such projects as the Ultimate Dream represent real value for money. The taxpayer would expect nothing less from us.
  As regards the future, we have to be realistic. Productivity in shipbuilding in the far east is at a very high level. Although the situation is changing, Korea also still has the advantage of a low labour-cost economy. Although productivity in United Kingdom industry has increased recently, this will need to continue to improve if

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  we are to retain the opportunity to compete with shipbuilding companies there. The management and the work force at Harland and Wolff have been making strenuous attempts to cut costs and improve productivity through such measures as labour flexibility and by attacking overheads. It is crucial that this progress should continue, and I am encouraged to know that all parts of Harland and Wolff seem to recognise the importance of this and to be determined to make their efforts successful. There should be no doubt about the nature of the challenge: there is a major objective for shipbuilders in Britain in closing the gap in productivity compared to our competitors in Japan and Korea.
  Harland and Wolff has, I believe rightly, set out to attract orders for more specialised and sophisticated ships. The strategy is correct—it takes advantage of the strong engineering base in the company and in Northern Ireland generally. It does, as I have already alluded, present new problems for the company in switching its strategy away from building the large tankers around which its facilities were built and in coping with the demands of making new engineering technologies perform within the difficult working environment of a ship.
  However, the ability to build sophisticated ships is not a safeguard against worldwide competition. As an example, at the end of 1987, a Spanish yard won a contract for a floating oil production system, which will not be restricted to one well, similar to SWOPS. That order was won in competition with four other European yards, and is an illustration of the type of competition that Harland and Wolff will have to face, if it is to capitalise on the expertise that it has gained on the SWOPS vessel.
  That said, the overall outlook for world shipping at the start of 1988 shows at least some promising signs of improvement. The volume of goods carried by sea in 1987 increased, and there was a significant growth during the second half of the year, particularly in the carriage of grain. The size of the world fleet continued to reduce, and, with falling efficiency as the existing ships aged, the balance between the demand and supply for shipping came closer to equilibrium.
  The overall reduction in the size of the fleet, together with the increasing age of many ships, suggests the possibility of a certain upturn in demand for replacement of obsolete ships. Such a development would ultimately offer some prospect of better conditions as regards the shipbuilding market. Despite those encouraging signs, it is extremely difficult, especially when looking at future trends in world trade, to estimate shipbuilding requirements over the medium and longer term.
  Throughout the 1980s there has been a number of long-term forecasts of shipbuilding demand produced by shipbuilding trade organisations including the Association of Western European Shipbuilders. Each of those has predicted an upturn in demand before 1990, but that has not yet occurred. Consequently forecasts of an early
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  upturn need to be treated with caution. To add to that, the offshore oil and gas market has not made any substantial recovery since the last fall in oil prices; and there is now more than adequate shipbuilding capacity to meet the United Kingdom's naval defence requirements.
  Even when there is an upturn in the market, the competition for new orders will be intense, especially from the far east and some new shipbuilding countries such as Brazil and Yugoslavia.
  The hon. Gentleman did not mention privatisation. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has made a number of statements to the House recently regarding the position of the publicly owned British Shipbuilders, which faces similar problems to Harland and Wolff. He highlighted the large amounts of subsidy that have flowed into British shipbuilding, and correctly concluded that there can be no long-term future in continuing to pour in such amounts.
  The most interesting development in British Shipbuilders is the interest now being shown by the private sector in many of the facilities. I understand that negotiations with Kvaerner regarding a takeover at Govan are proceeding, and considerable interest has been shown in Appledore and some of the smaller subsidiaries. We welcome the prospect of returning some of the shipbuilding yards to the private sector if they have a future there.
  If those sales are achieved, new management and forms of business will have been introduced. There are people who are prepared to try to turn round loss-making yards into businesses that have a real future. If successful, that approach is bound to be advantageous for the work force in the yards and the local communities. I should make it clear that, were there to be a n expression of interest in the privatisation of Harland and Wolff, the Government would take any such proposals very seriously.
  We remain concerned at the high level of support required to keep Harland and Wolff in business, and Ministers keep its performance under regular review. I can assure hon. Members that no recent decisions about the future of the company have been taken, but equally there can be no absolute guarantee of lasting support from public funds regardless of the company's ability to compete effectively. I have already referred to the commitment that Government have shown to the company. The Government are not indifferent to the problems facing the industry but the main challenges relate to the winning of new orders at competitive prices.
  In Northern Ireland, we need to look at the best ways of sustaining economic activity and employment. A healthy profit-making manufacturing sector has a vital role to play in creating wealth in the economy. I hope that the shipyard will be part of that but I can give no guarantees. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on raising the issue and giving me the opportunity to make the Government's position clear.

  Wool Textile Industry (West Yorkshire)
  11.45 am
  Mr. Pat Wall: This is the third Adjournment debate in less than a year that I have shared with my two Labour colleagues, the hon. Members for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) and for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden). We have discussed poverty in Bradford and the Health Service in the Bradford health district. Those two debates were initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West. On Wednesday this week, my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South raised the issue of education and the condition of schools in the Bradford area. Today it is my turn to bring to the House the position of the wool textile industry in Bradford and the West Riding of Yorkshire.
  I and my colleagues take pride in co-operating with one another better to represent the people of Bradford, in particular the working people of our city. I use that term in its widest sense. I mean those who earn their living by hand and by brain, by their own efforts and not by rent, interest and profit—the efforts of others. We include those too young to work, those too old to work and the large number of our fellow citizens denied the right to work. In a sense, we have put the cart before the horse. We have described with some passion the effects before the cause of the serious health problems in our district and the appalling levels of poverty that have given us the name of low-pay city.
  Our city is also wool city. Its history is bound up with the development of the wool textile industry. For generations, the wool industry has dominated the lives of Bradford people and, in large part, its domination is the cause of much of our low pay, poverty and ill-health.
  In my maiden speech I referred to old-style mill capitalism in Bradford, to the power, flaunted wealth and arrogance of the old mill owners and to the exploitation and the back-to-back houses. I have no wish to repeat those comments this morning, but it is sufficient to say that it is still possible to meet pensioners who were employed as part-timers in the mills from as young as eight years of age.
  One thing can be said in defence of the mill owners of those days. They worked in the industry and, even into the late 1960s, owner-managed mills were quite common. In more recent times, much like the rest of British industry, the mills have become dominated by investment managers in financial institutions, by off cum dens, as we call them, in remote boardrooms, and even by a film star's wife. Their interests are entirely in profits and high returns for their investors and the coupon-clipping class that they represent. They demonstrate little interest in the living standards and aspirations of the workers and those who depend on their earnings.
  The modern history of the industry stems from a report prepared by W. S. Atkins and Partners for the National Economic Development Office in 1969, entitled "The Strategic Future of the Wool Textile Industry". It made 14 recommendations, which include more specialisation, a 40 per cent. reduction in productive establishments, a reduction in the work force from 144,000 to 121,000 by 1975, investment of £40 million by 1975, a higher rate of return on capital, more shift working and higher productivity, thereby, it said,
  "ensuring higher remuneration in competition with other industries."
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  It is interesting to note that a similar report, dealing with the Lancashire cotton industry was issued in 1969. Called "Cotton and Allied Textiles", it was produced by the Textile Council in Manchester. The trend in that industry has been similar in almost every way to that in the wool industry. Colleagues from my native county of Lancashire could make much the same points as those that we are making about the wool industry. The work force in the industry has suffered massive redundancies. Overall, some 300,000 jobs have disappeared in the textile industry since the war. Workers accepted new shift patterns and work practices and their efforts have led to substantial increases in productivity.
  Between 1980 and 1986, productivity in woollen yarns rose by 41·4 per cent. Between 1980 and 1985, productivity in the carpet industry rose by 49 per cent. In bleaching, dyeing and raising, productivity rose by a staggering 69–4 per cent. between 1980 and 1986. The overall fall in employment since 1978 in the textile industry has been 46 per cent., and in woollens and worsteds, over 50 per cent. In the same period, the sales by United Kingdom firms declined by only 33 per cent., which is further proof of the enormous increase in productivity in this industry.
  I asked the statistical section of the Library to prepare some information for this debate. Commenting on this phenomenon, its report said about output:
  "Much of these falls occurred between 1979 and 1982 but while output has since risen employment has not."
  Fewer workers, producing far more per operative, has been nice for the shareholders. Profits as a percentage of total sales have risen from 1·4 per cent. in 1981 to 10·5 per cent. in 1986 in textile finishing, and from 3·75 per cent. in 1981 to 9·75 per cent. in 1986 in woollens and worsteds.
  The Atkins report stated:
  "However introduction of new plant and methods of working should provide scope for wage increases associated with improved productivity in many sectors. It is recommended that all parties to productivity negotiations should be mindful of the need for substantial increases in earnings."
  Wool textile workers have met all the conditions of the Atkins report. Their skills and efforts have achieved the recent upturn in the industry. Output is rising, productivity is high profits are booming—it is all very nice for the shareholders, but in terms of wages and employment there has been no such improvement for the workers or the unemployed.
  Textile workers as a whole and wool textile workers in particular were low paid in 1969, and in 1979 when the Government came to office, and they remain definitely low paid today. In 1987, the average gross earnings in textile finishing for a full-time adult male worker were £25·20 lower than the average in manufacturing industry, in the woollen and worsted industry they were £31·30 a week lower, and in carpets around £20 a week lower. These earnings, deplorable as they are, can be achieved only by persistent and excessive overtime working. Average weekly overtime working in textile finishing is 7·1 hours a week, compared with 6·3 hours in the textile industry as a whole and 5·7 hours in all manufacturing. In the woollen and worsted industry, overtime hours average a staggering 9·1 a week. What a record that is for the vast number of unemployed workers in the city and the area as a whole.
  Textiles are the sixth largest sector of British industry, and sales amounted to £12·5 million in 1987. In terms of value added, it is the fifth largest industry in Britain, bigger

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  than the motor industry. In 1985, the value added was £4·67 billion, nearly £2 billion more than that achieved by the aerospace industry.
  In my view, the textile industry is a mirror of what is wrong with British industry and with the Government's attitude towards British industry. In the run-up to the 1983 general election, the Prime Minister said:
  "Most of the increased productivity comes from adopting the latest developments in equipment and machinery technology and working them up to the limit of what the machines themselves will permit. Unions have got to accept it and work it. If they don't then they are in danger of losing whole factories."
  I would argue that textile workers have met all the conditions that the Prime Minister laid out in that speech. They have accepted redundancies, they have witnessed closures and they have increased productivity. They have worked damn hard to create the wealth of that industry, yet their return is still absolutely scandalous and pitiful, and job opportunities have not improved, even during this modest boom. Workers have certainly responded, but again, mirroring the national position, the industry is not competing in the world market. While exports fell from £1,382 million in 1980 to £976 million in 1986, at the same time imports rose from £1,607 million to £3,400 million. Textile imports now take 44·6 per cent. of the market, compared with 31·5 per cent. when the Government came to power.
  We are now faced with a protectionist situation developing in the United States because of that country's enormous balance of trade deficit. A recent trade report stated:
  "Exports of cloth, yarns and tops to the EEC countries totalled £153·1 million, 6·5 per cent. higher than in 1985, while sales to the rest of the world were £247·9 million, a decrease of 12·7 per cent."
  That is mirrored in particular by the over-strength of the pound in comparison with the dollar, which affects trade not only with the United States, but with Taiwan, Korea and other far eastern countries whose currencies are directly related to the dollar. We are certainly not competing against those countries, and in that sense the future looks bleak.
  Textile workers and the trade unions that represent them are not little Englanders. We object to unfair competition and during this debate my colleagues will speak about, among other things, the imports of Turkish cloth. The textile unions have accepted the multi-fibre arrangement, which makes provision for the interests of low-paid and highly exploited workers in the Third world. They welcome the enormous movements of South Korean workers and the establishment of trade unions in their industry.
  I recall speaking to a Bradford wholesaler who visited South Korea eight or nine years ago. He visited a textile factory there and said to the manager, "It's different from a textile factory in Britain. There's no music." The manager said that music was not allowed, to which the British business man replied that the girls in Britain liked to listen to Radio One or Pennine Radio. He said that he thought it was too quiet and commented on the fact that nobody was talking. The manager said, "If that girl spoke to another girl, we would sack her for talking and the other girl for listening."
  Those young girls work 60 hours a week and 28 days a month with only two days off. They are brought in from agricultural areas and live in hostels. Bradford workers
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  and trade unionists welcome the fact that those workers are now establishing trade unions and obtaining better conditions. The Transport and General Workers Union supports the KMU trade union in the Philippines in its heroic battle against a subsidiary of the British firm, Baird textiles. We are not little Englanders, but we object to dumping and unfair competition.
  Bradford is part of the West Yorkshire closure area. The social conditions of our town are reflected in all walks of life. There is low pay. Many families have low incomes. We have the lowest paid women workers in the whole of Britain and our area has the third lowest paid men. 'The average earnings of our workers are appallingly low. The history of the domination of the wool industry is reflected in the general level of wages in our area.
  One of our major problems is capital investment, which amounts to only £1,030 per worker annually in Yorkshire and Humberside, compared with the national average of £1,193.
  In my maiden speech and in other speeches in the House, I have spoken of the fraud of modern "people's capitalism", which the Prime Minister speaks about so often. It is a fraud for working people in Bradford and in the country as a whole. It has offered us nothing. There has not been an increase in service jobs. All we have had is an increase in the proportion of service jobs because of the decline in manufacturing jobs in our area. The engineering industry, which was brought to Bradford to replace the decline in textiles, has suffered a similar decline during the Government's period of office. Eighty-three per cent. of the 11,600 jobs that were brought to the city of Bradford over five years were for part-time workers.
  We are a city and an area with a proud history and tradition of craft and skill. If I make one criticism of Yorkshire wool workers and Lancashire cotton workers, it is that they are not proud enough of their skills and that they do not demand enough recompense in terms of wages and conditions for the skills that they have exhibited. They are hard-working people who have never asked for anything other than to be able to give their labour and to ask for a decent living in return for the hard work that they are prepared to put in. The Government have denied wool workers in Yorkshire and in the city of Bradford a decent standard of living for their efforts. The Government's economic policies offer those workers no real prospect for the future. The Government and the wool employers stand condemned. It is up to all Opposition Members to work for a situation in which the workers in the industry will get a decent return for their efforts.
  12.1 pm
  Mr. Bob Cryer: I shall be brief, but should like to say how pleased I am to take part in this debate, which has been initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall) and in which we shall be joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden). We wish to raise our concern about the major industry of Bradford and West Yorkshire.
  It is interesting to reflect on the fact that 10 years ago I took part in a press conference at the Victoria hotel in Bradford to report on the effect of the wool textile scheme by which the then Labour Government had stimulated investment and improved quality in the wool textile industry because we believed in the need to assist industry.

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  That contrasts with the current limited policies of this Government, who are letting industry drift asunder, in many cases on to the rocks. At that press conference we pointed out that in the West Riding wool textile industry, over 500 jobs—not a lot—had been created by the development of the industry, in partnership with the Government. That presents a strong contrast to the 50 per cent. reduction in employment in the textile industry since 1979.
  That contrast is symbolised for me by Salts mill in the village in which I was brought up. In 1979, that mill was working. It was the largest integrated textile operation, and although it was by no means then working at full employment, it is now empty. Its vast bulk signifies the Government's attack on British manufacturing industry. People are now talking about turning it into a museum or an art gallery, about anything but providing jobs in the wool textile industry. Those are the decisions of the entrepreneurs to whom the Government are giving such free rein.
  I should like to make a brief point about the imports of Turkish acrylic yarn, which has caused so much unemployment and short-time working in the wool and spinning sector in the area and in my constituency, as in the other Bradford constituencies. I know that those imports have declined somewhat, but the Government have not negotiated an adequate safeguard clause to prevent severe and real damage to the industry before such a safeguard clause can be brought into operation.
  We are talking about a massive increase in imports from around 4·5 tonnes in 1984 to about 4,500 tonnes in 1987. While I dare say that the Minister will claim that there was no safeguard clause before the Government negotiated one through the EEC relationship with Turkey, the fact is that that clause is less than adequate. It is a sign of the difficulties facing the textile industry in its association with the EEC.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North said, the industry faces difficulties in exporting as a result of the high value of the pound. That is symbolised by the clash between the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. At least the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants to control the level of the pound and has so far beaten the Prime Minister, although her malign influence is still causing difficulties for British exporters.
  The current circular from the Bradford chamber of commerce says of the textile, clothing and footwear sector:
  "Firms in this sector continue to find it difficult to penetrate export markets."
  My next point relates to false labelling and adequate labelling for consumers. The West Yorkshire trading standards service often prosecutes for false labelling, but it has difficulties because the current legislation requires that false labelling is something carried out by way of trade. Other countries, even in the EEC, have legislation regarding counterfeiting. The Government should seriously consider making the counterfeiting of goods a criminal offence. That would help.
  I express deep regret that the Government have given way to pressure from the EEC over labelling and have repealed the Trade Descriptions Act 1972 and associated regulations. Concern has been expressed by the wool textile and clothing industry action committee—Wooltac—over the legislation that the Government will introduce
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  to replace the repealed legislation to ensure that consumers have adequate information about the origin of the material and the garment. It is wrong and mistaken of the EEC to try to impose its will on our country and remove information to which consumers have a right when making a purchase.
  The multi-fibre arrangement has been renewed by the Government and that has been welcomed by the industry. However, the Government will be under increasing pressure as the internal market in the Common Market develops by 1992 to remove all kinds of labelling protection for consumers and international arrangements like the multi-fibre arrangement. The internal market, much advertised by the Government for 1992, spells disaster based on experience of subsidies for other EEC countries and unfair competition. We will have to face that, unless the Government are prepared to take action to ensure that we keep the jobs in the wool textile industry in Bradford.
  12.7 pm
  Mr. Max Madden: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall) on his successful application for this debate and on making an extremely powerful speech in introducing it. At the outset I should declare my interest. I am sponsored by the Transport and General Workers Union, whose textile group represents 50,000 men and women in the textile industry. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North has said, at the moment and over recent years those men and women have seen profits rise and their productivity increase substantially. They have also seen their senior management take fat pay increases from the wealth that they have created. They should now look for a fair share from the wealth they have created.
  The debate is about the woollen industry, but I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the men and women working in the cotton industry, who are taking their first official industrial action for 50 years calling for a modest increase in pay and conditions of employment. They are seeking a 10 per cent. increase in pay. The low pay in the cotton industry and low pay throughout the textile industry is clear from the fact that that 10 per cent. increase, if granted, would result in only an extra £11 a week.
  The workers' demands are set out in early-day motion 1118. I hope that the employers in the cotton industry will concede their demands. It is also interesting to note that one demand is for cancer screening facilities. It is significant that, so far, the employers have proffered only a working party to consider whether such facilities should be made available.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) referred to the damage done to the British textile industries by imports of Turkish acrylic yarns. Hundreds of British textile workers are on short time or have lost their jobs as a result of those imports. It is no use the Government blaming, as they have in recent months, the failure of British textile companies to complain, as an excuse for not having done anything effective to reduce Turkish yarn imports. The Transport and General Workers Union extensively set out information about the harm being done as long ago as last September.
  In his written answer to a parliamentary question I recently tabled, the Minister for Trade replied:

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  "The volume of acrylic yarn imports from Turkey has fallen off sharply in the first three months of 1988, compared with the same period last year. The Department's unfair trade unit is assisting the United Kingdom industry in preparing an anti-dumping complaint on Turkish acrylic hosiery yarn."—[Official Report, 24 May 1988; Vol. 134, c. 114]
  I hope that the Minister and his officials will make sure that that complaint is sent to Brussels as quickly as possible, because the damage being done by imports is increasing at an alarming rate.
  I turn now to a matter affecting British textiles and British Coal. I recently took up with the Prime Minister the prospect of British Coal buying imported cloth for protective clothing such as donkey jackets and duffle coats. I much regret the fact that, as from I May, British Coal has decided to import foreign cloth from Europe for that purpose. My letter to the Prime Minister was referred to the chairman of British Coal, Sir Robert Haslam, by a Minister at the Department of Trade and Industry, and Sir Robert wrote to me:
  "This particular contract was let following a competitive tender exercise with a number of U.K. manufacturers of workwear; we have no direct involvement with the purchasing of cloth. We found from the tender exercise that, when comparing garments made up from European cloth to those of British cloth, the savings offered were considerable.
  I am sure that over the coming months tenderers will be reviewing their pricing policy prior to the next round of tenders, when it is to be hoped that the British textile industry will be able to make the most competitive offer, and thus allow us to use British cloth exclusively for our needs once again."
  It is regrettable that British Coal, which rightly urges consumers of its own products to buy British, should itself buy foreign cloth. Judging by Sir Robert's letter, there can be only one explanation. It is either that foreign producers are able to undercut British cloth manufacturers because of unfair subsidies, or that British textile manufacturers attempted to rip off British Coal in a way that would be considered wholly unacceptable and which would lay them open to the charge of seeking to make excessive profits from a public sector customer. I suspect that this is further evidence of unfair trading from Europe, and of substantial subsidies being given directly to European textile producers. I ask the Minister to mount an urgent investigation, so that the British public and the British textile industry can know the truth.
  As my hon. Friends have said, the British textile and clothing industry is a major one. It is a major employer, a major exporter and a major source of added value. It is not expendable, nor will it ever be. British jobs cannot be traded for bridges in Turkey, or to facilitate Turkey's entry into the Common Market. The industry demands proper consideration from the Government. When negotiations are being mounted overseas, whether for GATT or the multi-fibre arrangement, its interests must be put forcefully by British Ministers.
  All that the industry and those who create its wealth want is a fair trading environment, and they have been waiting for it from the Government for a long time. Now is the time for those men and women to be given a fair share of the wealth that they created, and to be able to look confidently to the Government at long last to put the interests of British textiles at the top rather than the bottom of the agenda.
  12.16 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs (Mr. John Butcher): First,
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  I congratulate the hon. Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Wall) on securing this debate, and also on mustering the support of his hon. Friends the Members for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) and for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer).
  The hon. Gentleman has a reputation as a staunch exponent of the more radical approach within his party, and it was thoroughly to be expected that he should introduce some of his economic philosophy into the debate. It is not, of course, his intention to engage in a long discussion on that today, but I should like to say two things in response to his general comments.
  I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman's speech and I do not believe that the word "customer" featured prominently, if at all. The difference between us is that Conservative Members start from the proposition that the customer is the job creator and the wage payer. In a command economy—for which the hon. Gentleman would presumably feel some affection—there is more direction and control and judgments are made more from the centre; or, indeed, to put the syndicalist view, on the shop floor. Evidence throughout the world is that such command economies consistently under-perform compared with demand-based economies founded on the enterprise ethic.
  Mr. Wall: I spent most of my working life dealing directly with customers, so I, too, know the importance of a customer to industry. I do not wish to become involved in a long debate, but I should like to clarify a point that is often misunderstood.
  The faults of the state-controlled industries in China and Eastern Europe lie not in the fact of state control but in the fact that they are run entirely undemocratically. There is proof, not only in those economies but in capitalist economies as well, that if working people have no real say in the running and management of an industry it becomes bureaucratic and inefficient. I am certainly not a supporter of those totalitarian regimes, and I never have been.
  Mr. Butcher: I accept that. In my view, the hon. Gentleman's approach and philosophy have rather more to do with syndicalism than with old style Communism, but that is for another debate and another day. The hon. Gentleman may be personally acquainted with customer power, but this debate should have accentuated the fact that customer decisions result in the provision of jobs.
  The hon. Member for Bradford, South asked three questions. The Copyright, Designs and Patents Bill is being considered in Committee, where I have said that it will provide for counterfeiting. Some of the groups who feel most strongly about counterfeiting have told me that this is a step in the right direction but that we have to keep an eye on it. That links up with origin marking, another live issue.
  I shall be taking soundings of my counterparts in other EC countries from which I hope we can agree that there should be an EC origin marking regime for non-EEC imports. The issue is more complex than that, but in Yorkshire, with its interests in steel or wool, or in Lancashire, with its interests in cotton textiles, there is real concern about origin marking. I am determined that common European regime should be introduced and that it should go as far as possible towards meeting those concerns, including misleading labels. They imply a clear

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  manufacturing location in the United Kingdom when there is no such location. Yorkshire and Lancashire are very agitated about that. I shall deal later with Turkish imports.
  The wool industry is one of our oldest industries. For many years it has been an important part of our industrial base. Its products are diverse. They are wool tops for processing into worsted yarns; wollen and worsted yarns for making woven and knitted fabrics, carpets and knitwear: woollen and worsted fabrics mainly for making up into outerwear, but also for blankets, furnishing and non-apparel uses. I could deal at length with the variety of products involved.
  The industry employs around 40,000 people, the majority of them in West Yorkshire, a region that relies heavily on the continued existence of a healthy wool textiles industry. I am pleased to say that production has been gradually increasing since the severe contraction in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The industry continues to enjoy a positive trade balance, to the extent of almost £100 million in 1986 and probably much the same last year.
  Against a backcloth of substantial import penetration in other parts of the United Kingdom textile sector, it is worth considering why the wool industry still enjoys a positive trade balance. First and foremost, I believe that it is because British wool textiles have a reputation for quality that is perceived worldwide. Even a layman such as I can appreciate the feel of a fine worsted which, for suiting, is in a class of its own. But design is also important—never more so than in recent years, as consumers have become increasingly more sophisticated in their requirements and ever more design conscious. More casual clothing styles have come to the fore. Fashion dictates have also led to the development of lighter weight wool fabric for the ever-increasing number of overseas markets in warmer climes, as well as for the occasional good summer in the United Kingdom.
  A reputation for quality and design would in itself be incapable of sustaining the United Kingdom wool industry in today's intensively competitive world markets. There is very real professionalism within the industry that belies its somewhat traditional image. There have been major investments in new machinery, and marked improvements in productivity. The industry has long recognised that it is not enough to produce a desirable product and expect everyone to beat a path to its mills. Even quality products have to be marketed effectively and it is increasingly important to be able to react speedily to changes in market requirements.
  The industry pays close attention to developments in its major markets, principally the United States, West Germany and Japan, where the United Kingdom industry's performance is particularly impressive, showing just what can be achieved on the basis of quality and perseverance in a notably difficult market. At the same time, it keeps a watchful eye on opportunities to break into or to expand existing trade with developing markets. British wool textiles are currently exported to no fewer than 160 countries, with export earnings of around £600 million a year, an impressive achievement by any standard. The performance was improving in the early months of this year. Despite these positive aspects, I recognise that the United Kingdom wool industry is facing some very
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  real problems today, and I should like now to consider the problem of imports from Turkey in the acrylic yarn sector of the industry.
  This is a matter of considerable concern to my Department. Turkish exports to the European Community of certain textile products are covered by a voluntary restraint arrangement, which was renewed—and acrylic hosiery yarn included for the first time—after very difficult negotiations between the Commission and the Turkish textile export associations in December 1987. Although the restraint level agreed was higher than we and the industry would have liked, without the restraint the United Kingdom would have been wide open to unlimited imports of Turkish acrylic yarn.
  At the time of the negotiations we had insufficient evidence of serious disruption to United Kingdom industry. Although we had information on short-time working and low prices, the other economic data which we had to take into account, such as domestic production, consumption and exports did not show the sort of systematic downward trend that would have been necessary for us to make a convincing case for a lower restraint level.
  The Department has received numerous representations from the industry expressing concern about the situation in the acrylic yarn spinning sector and complaining about unfair trading by the Turks resulting from the low price of their acrylic yarn. Officials in the Department's unfair trade unit are in close contact with the Confederation of British Wool Textiles to provide advice on the kind of evidence needed to mount an effective anti-dumping complaint against Turkish imports and, more recently, against imports of similar yarn from Mexico. However, success in anti-dumping complaints depends not only on establishing dumping, but on showing that injury to domestic producers is directly attributable to imports from the country in question. This is not proving easy.
  Although Turkish imports rose significantly in 1987, total import penetration fell to 49.7 per cent.from 55.4 per cent. in 1986. That suggests that Turkish imports were substituting for yarns imported from other countries rather than adding to import penetration. In addition, there are clear signs that the problems in the acrylic yarn spinning sectors are, to some extent at least, a result of falling UK demand. The latest figures show that imports from Turkey so far this year are greatly reduced. Nevertheless, officials are continuing to work closely with the industry to ensure that the anti-dumping case that they are preparing has the best possible chance of success when it is presented to the European Commission in Brussels. I am sure that the House will be united behind that endeavour.
  I know that the industry's sense of grievance is aggravated by what it preceives as the unfairness of the situation. There are formidable barriers in the form of multiple duties, taxes and other charges on our exports of textiles and clothing to Turkey. I assure the House that the Government take every opportunity in trade negotiations to argue that countries such as Turkey should adopt a more open stance to imports. We shall continue to do that until disparities of the magnitude involved are diminished. I should also add that the Commission has invited member states to submit evidence of practices that are contrary to the European Community's association agreement with Turkey. The United Kingdom intends to respond fully to the Commission's request for information and it is hoped

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  that the Commission and Turkey will soon be able to set up a joint group of experts to study all the issues impeding free and fair competition between the Community and Turkey.
  On the wider front, we attach considerable importance to achieving a better balance between developed and developing countries in the current round of GATT multilateral trade negotiations. The hon. Member for Bradford, North made some interesting comments on that. I hope that he is reassured that, whenever we negotiate, in the European Community and elsewhere, we examine countries that have exceedingly low pay—the very poorest countries in the world—in considering more amenable arrangements for imports from those countries.
  While there may be some justice in the poorest developing countries continuing to be largely exempted from the obligations of GATT, we have long believed that the strongest among them—the newly industralised countries—should, in their interests as well as ours, fulfil the expectation that they recorded in GATT at the end of the 1970s: that, as they developed, they would progressively abandon the special relaxations that GATT allows for its poorest members and enter fully into the GATT system of rights and obligations.
  Although the return of textiles and clothing to normal GATT rules is on the table in the current Uruguay round, progress on that will depend very much on developments, such as the GATT safeguard clauses and market access. We would also want to be sure that any return to normal GATT rules did not lead to undue disruption for United Kingdom textiles and clothing.
  The hon. Member for Bradford, North raised one or two other points, some of them for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment I shall examine the record of today's debate and refer the relevant points to my right hon. Friend, so that he can reply to the hon. Gentleman.

  Vacant Land
  12.30 pm
  Mr. Anthony Steen: We are fortunate to have such a full House to hear this important debate. I am blinded by the sight of the empty Opposition Benches; it is obviously a foretaste of things to come.
  We are very fortunate to have the Minister responsible for the inner cities here to answer the debate. He is well known for his interest, knowledge and balanced judgment, and we are grateful to the Government for ensuring that he is here on this beautiful sunny day. We hope that that will mean that we shall get a more forthright and informed response to the question that I have been posing for the past 10 years: why have the Government not ordered the public sector to get rid of its vacant, surplus, underutilised, derelict, dormant land? Every time I ask that question I am cheered by my hon. Friends, who all say, "Wonderful. That is just what we want to do." Minister after Minister says, "You are absolutely right. You are spot on. That is just the thing we should do." But nothing happens; no one does anything. I hope to explain some of the problems that the Government face, and why they need to do more.
  I speak as a former inner city Member—I was a Member for nine years in Liverpool—and as a youth worker in east London—a community worker in most of the principal cities in Britain—for 14 years. In addition to being chairman of the urban and inner city committee of the Conservative party, I should perhaps declare an interest as part of the caucus of the new SANE planning group, well known for its good sense, good timing and sane approach to planning.
  There are 100,000 acres of public land on the Government's vacant land register, which has been in existence since 1981 when my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) prudently set it up to identify public vacant land, to highlight the problem and to shame public authorities into doing something about it. The amount varies. It increases when the planning process, which is like a sausage machine, turns out more public land.
  The planning system itself creates public vacant, dormant, derelict, underutilised land. Like a sausage machine, the process will go on churning out more land as long as it is organised in the present way. The figure decreases when the Government privatise a nationalised industry. When a nationalised industry goes off into private orbit, it takes its public land with it. Therefore, the figure on the register decreases every time we privatise. It may decrease by a few thousand or increase by a km thousand, but, as the Minister will no doubt tell the House, unfortunately there is still a sizeable amount of public vacant land—probably about 100,000 acres for the past seven years. It may have increased to 110,000 or decreased to 98,000, but it has not altered much. But because the sausage-making machine will continue to produce more derelict vacant land, even if we sold 10,000 acres a year, we would still not get rid of it all by the turn of the century. It is an intractable problem that successive Governments have failed to remedy.
  In 1978, the Secretary of State for the Environment in the Labour Administration said that he was writing to all public authority chairmen to ask them to review their land holdings. They may have done so, but nothing was clone about it. In 1981, my right hon. Friend the Member for

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  Henley set up the land register to try to pinpoint vacant land. We know where the land is, but that has not helped very much. The Government keep saying, rightly, that they are committed to revitalising the cities, especially the inner cities. Vacant and derelict land is dotted all over the inner cities and on their fringes. It is the canker in the revitalisation process because it destroys the confidence that businesses and new firms need. Dereliction has a spin-off effect on neighbouring areas.
  The legislation that covers the land register is cumbersome, time-consuming and open to abuse. The Government must push for derelict land to be sold. At present they have to go through a tortuous timetable.
  In answer to a written question on 24 May, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said:
  "Following the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment on 7 March that public bodies would themselves publish information about unused and underused land they own, similar publication of information by Government Departments is under consideration."—[Official Report, 24 May 1988; Vol. 134, c. 102.]
  Does the House realise that no Department need publish how much vacant derelict and underused land it has? It is extraordinary that the Government should say that local authorities must disclose their land holding but that Government Departments need not disclose how much land they hold. Some Departments tell us how much land they have, but they are not obliged to do so.
  A couple of weeks ago, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment said that he wanted 494,000 new houses to be built during the next 12 years and that he will use 53,700 acreas of land to do so. That is on the basis of an average of 9·1 houses to an acre. He said that where development is needed, developers will be able to buy private land, obtain planning permission and get on with building. If those houses can be built on 53,700 acres of private land, they could equally well be built on 53,700 acres of public land,—that is, if the Government and the developers are prepared to insist that the public authorities release such land for building.
  Even after those 494,000 houses have been built on public land, there will be some 50,000 acres of public vacant land left on the register. That presumes that the sausage machine will not pump more land on to the register while those houses are being built.
  The Government sometimes argue that land is not suitable for housing and give the example of the one-in-three railway embankment. Railway embankments have been built on in Hong Kong and other places, but we are not that desperate for land, so we should rule out that example. We can rule out land that is heavily polluted because formerly it was the site of a gasworks. Even if such land is ruled out, there are still 60,000 or 70,000 acres on the register which could be used. That land is lying idle because there is almost no incentive for a local authority to sell it. I think that a local authority receives 30 per cent., and the other 70 per cent. goes into a sinking fund that it can use from time to time. There is so little incentive or return that local authorities are not motivated.
  Professor Alice Coleman of King's College, London says that the 100,000 acres of land on the register represent only about one third of the public vacant land in this country. She said that there are 300,000 acres of vacant land, but that the Government have restricted the criteria
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  for land going on to the register. I hope that when my hon. Friend the Minister replies—we are already looking forward to his speech—he will say something about the criteria used. If the criteria were opened up, the figure would swell to 200,000 if not 300,000 acres. That is borne out in a book that I shall be publishing in early July, which highlights the public scandal of a wasting public asset.
  If the Government fail to recognise the assets that are wasting away in the public sector and insist on using greenfield private sector land, there will be a growth in our market towns, especially in the south, on a scale that we cannot contemplate. It must be against the public interest to build on private greenfield sites when there is so much public land going to waste.
  I speak from personal experience of what is happening in the small market town of Ivybridge, south Devon on the edge of the Dartmoor national park. There were 1,500 souls living there 10 years ago. I am told that Devon's planners became aware of the threat to one of the most beautiful parts of Britain and decided to spoil only one area to prevent the other small hamlets and villages from being damaged by overbuilding. They have failed because Ivybridge is growing and there is constant building in the other villages. Some 6,000 souls now live in Ivybridge, and the figure will be 14,000 by 1995. Private greenfield sites have been gobbled up by bulldozers and developers, but the infrastructure cannot cope. Sewers, drains, gas, telephones and the fire and health services cannot cope. I led a delegation to the Secretary of State for Education 10 days ago because we are running out of school space. There will be too many schoolchildren in Ivybridge, but the builders continue to build. It will become a nightmare. The Secretary of State admitted that the 235 houses being built in Ivybridge every year is greater than the yearly figure for his constituency of Mole Valley. Ivybridge's population is growing at the rate of 60·5 per cent. a year. The number of pupils in primary education has grown by 28·7 per cent. since 1983. The county council's forecast for the number of people who will be living in Ivybridge in 1991 was 8,272 people, but already 8,245 people are living there. Those increases are taking place while Plymouth sits on acres of vacant land in public ownership. The Ministry of Defence, with its bases at the dockyards and the outskirts, is one of the culprits.
  Why are the Government behaving like the carpenter? On the one hand, they are bewailing the acres of public land, saying "If only something could be done" and dabbing their eyes with a handkerchief, saying "Is this not dreadful?", but on the other they are responding to the developer-led and inspired demands for more private land to be built upon. Is that to make good the income of farmers, who have been hit by the declining output of agricultural land? Do they regard this as a device to make good farmers' incomes by allowing them to sell greenfield sites for more houses to be built on, thus saving the public purse having to make good their income shortfall?
  I have initiated the debate to get some sense from my hon. Friend the Minister, who is well known for his good sense.
  Mr. Nicholas Baker rose——
  Mr. David Nicholson rose——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order. Do the hon. Members have the consent of the hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) and the Minister to take part in the debate?
  Mr. Steen indicated assent.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. David Trippier) indicated assent.
  12.44 pm
  Mr. Nicholas Baker: I am grateful to have a brief opportunity to take part in the debate and to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen). I agree with every word that he said and laud his experience in inner cities and rural areas because he speaks from his knowledge. In the proposals in my pamphlet "This Pleasant Land", issued last September, I supported some of my hon. Friend's proposals, and I support those that he will make in his excellent book in July.
  My hon. Friend said that Government land was being sat on. How much land is the NHS sitting on in inner city areas? We should know the answer and should have no hesitation in ensuring that that land is put to good use. I am delighted to see here my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security—the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie)—who I am sure will take note of that point.
  Having pursued this subject for some years, I do not believe that politicians generally understand the importance of the environment to people, whether they live in the cities or in the countryside. Quality matters. The Government understand that, but not nearly enough of our inner city local authorities do so yet. How we treat that land matters very much. If graffiti are left bedaubing inner city walls, people get the message that the inner city does not matter. If acres of corrugated iron are left for years, as Southwark borough council has done, people get the message that it is an unpleasant and undesirable place in which to live and work. If a city is rotten at the core, the rot spreads outwards.
  I should like to make two substantive points, one general and one particular. On the general point, there is a direct and clear connection between what happens in our inner cities and what happens in rural areas. It matters to people in London that they have a green belt to be their lung. It matters to people who live in London that rural areas, even if they visit them perhaps only once in a lifetime for a holiday, are preserved. Likewise, it matters to people who live in Dorset or other rural areas that inner city areas such as in London are pleasant, habitable and safe. We forget that at our peril. I welcome the Government's inner city initiatives.
  On the specific point, I regard with the greatest suspicion the figures produced on the demand for housing. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has said that there is a demand for 610,000 houses in London and the south-east. That demand comes from developers and is nothing to do with the need for houses. It is part of our developer-led planning system. I urge my hon. Friend properly to consider the figures for real demand for housing and not to accept what he is told by the developers.
  I have a letter from a lady who lives in London who read a speech that I made saying that I regretted the number of people who had to move from inner cities to
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  retire and live in rural areas. She said that she had lived in London all her life and worked there. Her one desire was to retire to a rural area because she hated London so much. The aim of our policies must be to ensure that ladies and gentlemen who live in London want to live, work and retire there. I never again want to receive a letter from a lady in such despair.
  12.49 pm
  Mr. David Nicholson: I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in the debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen). I agree with most of what he said. In so far as the debate will contribute to the revitalisation of our inner cities, I must emphasise that that will be one of the main tests by which the Government will be judged in three or four years' time.
  I wonder whether there is much idle land in areas such as my constituency, which are subject to the greatest housing pressure. My hon. Friends the Members for South Hams and for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker) both mentioned Ministry of Defence and health authority land. In my constituency there are two health establishments for the mentally handicapped and the mentally disabled and they are located out in the country. There is also one defence establishment. I have great reservations about putting the inmates of institutions for the mentally handicapped into the community and I certainly do not want to part company with No. 40 Royal Marine Commando.
  But, we have to ask questions about the planning potential for housing on the areas occupied by such institutions. We should raise wider questions about where Ministry of Defence personnel are concentrated nationally. I believe that 60 per cent. of service personnel are located in the south.
  Such questions will be with us for some time. 'We cannot sweep them under the carpet and hope that they will rot like a carcass. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to respond positively on those points.
  12.50 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. David Trippier): I am glad of the opportunity to pay warm tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) for raising this subject and for the excellent work he does as chairman of the inner city and urban affairs Back Bench committee. I am grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker) and for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) for their contributions.
  I should comment on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams about farmers. I am not sure whether he made that point tongue in cheek, but I believe that it is stretching credulity to breaking point. My hon. Friend also mentioned the book by himself and Professor Alice Coleman which is shortly to be published, entitled, "Public Vacant Land and National Wasting Asset". I look forward with great interest to reading that.
  My hon. Friend said that he has raised the matter in the past. In fact, he raised it at the Department of the Environment's Question Time on Wednesday. I hope that he agrees that I was positive in my reply then I shall endeavour to be positive in my replies to all my hon. Friends today.

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  Publicly-owned and underutilised land is a matter central to the Government's efforts to regenerate our cities and conserve the best of our countryside. I can, therefore, agree with most of what my hon. Friend said on the importance of both those objectives. But it is also a subject which, in detail, is frequently subject to confusion and misunderstanding, as my hon. Friend suggested. So I must start by setting the record straight on some basic facts about the nature and performance of the registers of publicly owned, unused and underused land to which my hon. Friend has referred extensively.
  The registers were established in response to evidence from various sources that too many public authorities were holding land for which they had no immediate use but which they were unwilling to release on to the market. Some of that was land owned by nationalised industries, rendered surplus through changes in the structure, output or technology of those industries. As well as that, there were the holdings of many local authorities which had acquired land and property, sometimes in pursuit of overambitious plans that had not materialised. Also, throughout the public sector, there was a lazy habit of retaining land without accounting for the cost of doing so. So public sector land ownership was undoubtedly a constraint on the recycling of urban land for new homes and businesses.
  The land registers of publicly owned, unused and underused land were established to bring pressure to bear on those land hoarders. The scope of the registers is often misunderstood. They cover "unused and underused land", which is definitially broader than "derelict land", which is eligible for derelict land grant and is not necessarily the same thing as "vacant land" or "wasteland". Both terms were used today and are in popular usage. There is no official definition.
  As was made clear at the Action for Cities presentation, given recently by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, we are committed, through our urban regeneration policies, to minimise the extent of vacant land in towns and cities, but we have the specific measures of derelict land grant and the land registers to attack derelict land and publicly owned, unused land in particular.
  To date, some 159,000 acres of this latter form of vacant land has been entered on the registers—which is in my view a shameful statistic, and evidence of the rightness of the concern about the land management practices of public authorities. Since then, there have been regular additions to, and removals from, the register. The additions have arisen chiefly as additional land has become surplus to the requirements of the public authorities and unused. Effectively, it will go on to the register if it is not immediately sold. The removals have occurred as unused land has been brought into use by its public owner, sold or transferred out of the public sector following privatisation. The register is therefore rather like a bank account with credits and debits and, as with a bank account, it is most important to see which way the bottom line is moving. In this case, the trend is clearly downwards as the last few years have seen progressively more removals than additions.
  The position at the end of April 1988 is that 88,400 acres of land are still on the register. I am pleased to say that the annual net reduction over recent years has been
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  rising. It was 1,500 acres in 1985; 5,900 acres in 1986; 7,800 acres in 1987; and 2,900 acres in the first four months of 1988, equivalent to about 8,700 acres in a full year. If that rising rate of reduction were maintained, it would take less than a decade to clear the registers. That is a shorter time scale than that suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams at Question Time, which was about 1,000 years.
  My prognosis may be unrealistic. Of the 88,400 acres of land remaining on the registers, over half has low or negligible potential for development, and less than one fifth is regarded as suitable for residential development. This is another common misunderstanding. The register records, factually, that sites are unused or underused by the present owner. It does not judge whether they are usable by another owner. As a further illustration, about 3,000 acres of the land on the registers is in the green belt or other areas where development is not normally permitted. I am sure that all my hon. Friends would join me in not hoping to see these sites used for housing.
  What we face in the future is dealing with this more intractable rump of the historical legacy of unused land and ensuring that better property management practices in public authorities prevent a major recurrence on the scale of problems that we inherited. In this context, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has reviewed the use of his land register powers and decided on two significant changes which were announced in the recent Action for Cities package.
  First, in the exercise of my right hon. Friend's power to direct public authorities to dispose of unused land, we propose to pay close regard to any evidence that there is a willing purchaser facing an unwilling vendor. The land registers can thereby reinforce market pressure. I repeat the invitation issued by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in the House on 20 January that if any developer, investor, housebuilder or housing association wishes to use unused land in the ownership of public authorities, all that he or it has to do is to apply to my Department and invite my right hon. Friend to consider the use of his power of direction. That is of particular relevance to the less obviously developable remaining land register sites for which there may not be much of a general demand.
  Secondly, my right hon. Friend believes that it will encourage good property management if public authorities—not just local authorities—are responsible for maintaining and publishing records of the unused and underused land in their possession rather than merely providing such information to my Department. He is, therefore, preparing, in consultation with the local authority associations, a code of practice under part II of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 to require the publication of such information and, most importantly, it is proposed that a similar code of practice will be adopted by other public land owners, including the Government. That is the very point that I made to my hon. Friend in answer to his oral question last week. All public landowners will thereby have to expose to annual scrutiny an account of their own holdings of unused and underused land with its debits and credits and the current balance.
  My hon. Friends will be aware that, in providing for necessary development, the Government have not encroached on the green belts or areas of outstanding natural beauty or other statutorily protected areas. I am

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  happy to repeat what my right hon. Friend has repeatedly made clear. The Government's commitment to the protection of green belt remains as strong as ever.
  In comparison with Governments of previous decades, this Administration has had a great success in meeting the demands of people and businesses for new homes and work premises without undue loss of rural landscape or excessive densities of urban development. Both the 19th century nightmare of the overcrowded city and the 20th century nightmare of the overbuilt countryside can and will be avoided.

  Children in Care
  1 pm
  Mr. Ray Powell: I am grateful for the opportunity today to have at least 15 minutes to present to the House observations on the code of practice on access to children in care. I realise that 15 minutes is not long enough to introduce this subject, so I must be selective in the issues with which I deal It would be nice to have a Second Reading of the Bill that I have sought to introduce so that a Standing Committee could be set up to consider the complexities of the rights of access by grandparents to their grandchildren.
  The more I have considered this matter and the more I have read about it, the more complex it appears to be. From my discussions with members of the legal profession, it appears that they agree that it is a complex law. I consulted the White Paper entitled "The Law On Child Care and Family Servxes" presented to the House in January 1987, particularly the conclusion of the report, which I should like to put on record. It states:
  "The Government accept the widespread criticism of current child care law as confusing, unnecessarily complex and in places unjust. It is hard for those parents and children who may be affected by it to understand its implications for them and how their rights and responsibilities may be affected. It is difficult also for professionals who must use or act in accordance with the law—social workers, lawyers, police and others. Changes are needed to rationalise, clarify and where possible simplify the law, above all in the interests of the children whose well being is the primary objective of child care law."
  We recognise the urgent need for reform when we discuss the issue with all those who work in child care or have been involved directly, because of family problems. or indirectly, as advisers or representatives. That is why I am glad to have been afforded this opportunity to put on record a call for the early implementation of the proposals contained in the White Paper, "The Law on Child Ca re and Family Services".
  Since the White Paper was presented to the House in January last year, we have heard nothing from the Government. There has been absolute silence. Perhaps there has been an occasional reply to some hon. Members, such as myself, from the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie). I received such a reply on 30 March this year. However, the Government have taken no steps towards implementing those proposals. Why is it taking so long? What is the reason for the silence? What discussions is the Minister having with groups? What is the Government's intention for the early implementation of the White Paper? Is the Minister not aware of the continuing heartache and suffering of children, parents, grandparents, and the many others who are crying out for help?
  The present law is in a muddle as was made clear by the Government's conclusion to the White Paper. The law is often unjust to children, whom it was introduced to protect and fails to give a fair hearing even to the parents. The White Paper contained proposals for streamlining court proceedings, for giving more rights to parents and better protection for children at risk. It showed a greater concern for the future of children. It would end the present confusion of laws which are increasingly difficult to operate. It would also allow grandparents and others who

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  are interested in the well-being of a child, to take part in court proceedings if they feel that they have an interest in being present.
  It has taken 10 years of lobbying and consultation to get this far. Let us not stop now because Parliament is too busy. We must find the time to ensure that we change the present complex unjust laws to give parents and children a far better deal.
  I pay tribute to Baroness Faithfull of Wolvercote for her efforts to highlight the essential and urgent need for reform. She will undoubtedly find some solace in knowing that her efforts are appreciated, if not by Ministers or even by some Back Benchers. I wish her well in her efforts and hope that my contribution today will be of some help.
  We know that excuses for delay could be recent reports and public inquiries into child care abuse cases, especially the Cleveland case. However, further delay means more risks for children, more abuse of the present laws and more difficulities and problems for parents and grandparents.
  As this debate is about the code of practice for access to children in care, I took the trouble to read the documents—in all probability, the Minister has done likewise. If I read out the introduction to the code of practice my total of 15 minutes would be used up, yet all the clauses are as complex as the law relating to access to children. It would therefore, be far better for me to concentrate on recent rulings by the Law Lords. I refer to an article in The Guardian by Clare Dyer, its legal correspondent, on 26 February, which stated:
  "a member of the adopted child's natural family should continue to have access to the child, the House of Lords unanimously ruled yesterday."
  The article referred to access by a brother to his 13-year-old sister. It went on to claim that because of the complication of the case:
  "The court would not, except in the most exceptional case, impose terms or conditions as to access to which the adopting parents did not agree … A family law specialist said yesterday that access conditions would still be a matter of exception rather than the rule. 'But I can see the possibility of allowing access even in cases involving young children, for instance to maintain a link with grandparents.'"
  That is the point that I want to refer to in the short time left to me.
  I must declare an interest. My wife and I are grandparents to five wonderful grandchildren—three grandsons and two grand-daughters. We live only five miles from them. I always appreciate my wealth in this materialistic world by the treasures that my close family give to me. Its value is priceless and its benefits unmeasurable. I know that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, now enjoy the blessing of being a grandparent. Only grandparents can fully appreciate the joy and the love that that can bring.
  When I became involved with the problems of other grandparents I began to appreciate the heartache that they suffer through no fault of their own. I introduced a ten-minute Bill. I also tabled early-day motion 792, which has been signed by no fewer than 303 right hon. and hon. Members. Eighteen Cabinet Ministers, two Law Officers, 63 other Ministers including 14 Government Whips, Mr. Speaker and three Deputy Speakers, two Opposition Whips and 40 Government Parliamentary Private Secretaries, plus 15 shadow Ministers, makes a total of 144 right hon. and hon. Members who cannot support my
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  early-day motion—although many have expressed support. Even though I am no mathematician, once those 144 are deducted from the possible 649, 509 right hon. and hon. Members are left. Therefore, 303 signatures to my early-day motion from a possible total of 509 represents more than 60 per cent. support of all those eligible to sign my early-day motion. That is proof enough that action is called for by the majority of Members of this House.
  I hope that the Minister will not dodge or duck the issue in her reply. I want a positive reply rather than the excuses set out in a letter to me or her use of the reply made by the Leader of the House on 19 May. My early-day motion and ten-minute Bill are not complex. They do not represent a lawyer's paradise. The proposal is short, sharp, understandable and could be implemented without great difficulty and with very little expense. It would extend legal rights to grandparents which should be theirs long before they become grandparents.
  Everyone involved in this call for rights for grandparents must first think of the child or children. What do those children think when the love, understanding and protection that they have been given is cut off from them without explanation, notice or warning? Who can assess a child's suffering? That child must feel deserted by parents and grandparents. The child is in a torment and usually grandparents suffer the same. Surely grandchildren and grandparents have the right to have their own flesh and blood to love and care for them.
  My ten-minute Bill, which was supported by so many, does not ask the Government for estates. It has no selfish motives, and it does not ask for more money. It asks for nothing but the right to give. Is it because of that that people cannot understand that grandparents are wise, understanding, compassionate, caring, want to show love and give love to restore a child's confidence? In this selfish society, people wanting a legal right to give should be reason enough for my Bill and for a reasonable reply to be extended by the Minister.
  I conclude by reading a poem sent to me by Mrs. H. Matthews of Plymouth. It crystallises all the hurt and distress which grandparents feel in this situation. I am no Dylan Thomas, but her poem. which is entitled "Grandchildren Lost Through Divorce", reads:
  "I gaze at your picture hanging, there, on the wall And I wonder, have you lost your curls, have you grown tall?
  Do you like school now—chocolate-strawberry ice cream
  It would be lovely to know, but it's all just a dream.
  It's a long time since I saw you, well over a year
  I remember birthdays and Christmas, but you never come near.
  Do you get my cards and letters, maybe you wonder too
  What happened to the Granny who said she loved you?
  Love grows, flourishes, withers
  Sometimes it dies between mummies and daddies, and they have to part
  But the love of a granny lies, ever deep, in the heart.
  Now you and your mummy have drifted away
  'We're no longer your family', I hear with dismay.
  It isn't true, sweethearts, you'll always he mine,
  Blood's thicker than water, there's always a line
  Between you and me darlings, for as long as I live
  And I hope that your mummy, if not forget, can forgive
  And remember sometimes, there's a Granny, who sorrows
  For all the lost yesterdays, todays and tomorrows.
  I don't want to hurt you, but it would mean so much
  If your mummy would only let us keep in touch.
  I don't ask for a lot, just a card, and a photo or two
  So you don't forget me, as I can't forget you."

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  That poem symbolises the thoughts of many people. There are 98,000 children in care at present, and I appeal to the Minister, on behalf of all those children and their grandparents, to take action now, to show compassion and caring, and to help those people who live only in the hope that they can give.
  1.17 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mrs. Edwina Currie): I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) on three things. First, on winning the ballot; secondly, on raising once more, as he has done all this year, the important question of access to children in care—especially by their grandparents; and thirdly, on enabling me to respond to my 50th Adjournment debate since becoming a Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young) holds the record for Adjournment debates, as he replied to more than 100. However, on looking up his record, I found that he achieved his century in December 1984, which was some five years after he began. I have clocked up my half century in less than two years, and so I reckon that we are getting on a little faster.
  I regard the task of replying today, as on all those other occasions, not as a chore but as a privilege. We are all privileged to he Members of this august House and we Government members regard ourselves as being immensely privileged to be followers of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher). The Adjournment debate is also a first-class parliamentary device enabling ordinary Members to raise issues of both national and local importance. I hope that I shall never forget how important they are.
  When I was a Back Bencher, I raised five Adjournment debates. As a result, those of my constituents who were workshop employees of British Coal were able to take early retirement with good pensions, and Calke abbey will be open to the public by the National Trust next year. I hope that hon. Members will he able to attend on that occasion, and I shall be delighted to welcome them all to my constituency.
  The hon. Gentleman is quite right: grandparents are important people in a child's life. That is especially true when the parents arc preoccupied with their own problems or may have absconded, gone missing or died. I well understand the concern of grandparents in such circumstances, and have been approached by my constituents in similar cases. Happily, all those cases appear to have been resolved satisfactorily. In the end, however, the law must be written to put the child's interests first. The needs of the grandparent, or indeed parent, do not come first.
  The child's needs are usually best suited by living in a caring family. If the child's natural family cannot look after it, another family is the next best alternative. That is why I have always regarded foster parents as an essential resource, and often the next best thing to the child's own family. Foster parents may well be grandparents or other members of the child's family, in which case they can receive foster allowances in the same way.
  As the hon. Gentleman may know, some years ago I was chairman of the social services committee in the city of Birmingham. I had a survey done of all the children in care in that city who were with foster families. To our surprise, we found that the majority of foster parents were relatives,
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  or had been known to the child before the family break-up. They were neighbours or teachers, for example. Often that is what is best for the child. Since I was in Birmingham the law has changed, and we are monitoring carefully the effects of that change. The hon. Gentleman has done us all a timely service by raising the issue as he has done today.
  Prior to 1983, the law left decisions about management and access to children in care entirely to the professional judgment of social workers. The parents or extended family had no right of appeal to a court if access was terminated by a local authority, and rights of access could be decided simply by resolution of the authority. The movement for reform surfaced during the passage of the Health and Social Services and Social Security Adjudications Act 1983—usually known as the HASSASSA Act—which resulted in a Government amendment to section 12 of the Child Care Act 1980. The Act came into force on 30 January 1984.
  Under that legislation, parents, guardians and custodians can apply to a court when a local authority has notified them of termination of access. The decision of access is a matter for the court. The legislative changes recognised that the interests of a child and its parents may differ, and a guardian ad litem may be appointed. The provisions do not apply to children subject to a High Court or county court order, or to children in voluntary care—which is where many of the problems tend to arise—or subject to a place of safety order. It was therefore a somewhat limited reform, but very much a step in the right direction.
  Local authorities are required to notify parents, guardians or custodians of termination of access. Termination takes effect from the date of the notification, and parents, guardians or custodians can apply to the juvenile court to challenge the decision. An appeal can be made to the High Court. If financially eligible, a parent, guardian or custodian may apply for legal aid, and the court will make an access order if appropriate, to which conditions may be attached. There is also provision for an emergency whereby a single magistrate may terminate an access order for seven days.
  The hon. Member for Ogmore has mentioned specific cases and judgments, but I am sure that he will understand that without notice of them I do not wish to offer any comment. We have been monitoring the working of this exercise with the greatest care, and I take what the hon. Gentleman has said very seriously. The social services inspectorate has now completed a postal survey of all social services departments, a consideration of policy and procedures documents and an inspection of nine social services departments in the working of the new access provisions. I understand that the completed report will be put to Ministers shortly, but I have not seen it yet. The work shows that, on the whole, the departments have taken the provisions on board. From the response to the postal survey it appears that the number of termination of access cases is increasing, as is the number of court hearings.
  Our Department also commissioned the Dartington social research unit at the University of Bristol to undertake research into the working of the provisions. The preliminary results have just reached the Department, and my officials are examining them. The findings tend to show in both studies that children whose parents receive notices terminating access are not typical of children in care. The children appear to be those who have entered care at a

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  young age, stayed a long time and experienced neglect and possibly abuse before coming into care. The findings also show that contacts with their family before entering care have been poor. That is typical of certain groups of children, but it is not typical of all the children concerned. I know that concern has been expressed about the fact that rather than terminating access local authorities are seriously limiting access, but at present I have no consistent information about it.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the code of practice. He probably knows that there is a statutory requirement to produce and to revise from time to time the code of practice. The one that is currently extant was laid before Parliament on 16 December 1983. It was very well received by those working in child care. It has also been circulated, with a local authority circular, to all local authorities, the courts and voluntary agencies. The code of practice recognises that the most difficult and unhappy situations concerning the children in care can arise from disputes about access. All too often, the links between children and family can wither away. Children can become pawns in battles between parents, but for the majority of children there is no doubt that their best interests will be secured by efforts to sustain some links with their natural families, including, where appropriate, the grandparents.
  Local authorities and family agencies need to plan for children from admission to discharge and to include access in their plans. That should include the importance of maintaining contact with relatives, particularly grandparents, by access arrangements. All that is included in the code of practice.
  We should also bear in mind the duty to consider the wishes and feelings of the child. That again is mentioned in the code of practice, because those to whom we are referring are often not children but teenagers. They may have their own views on contact with parents or grandparents. In such cases, social services departments should remember that young people may later change their minds. They should therefore ensure that reasonably up-to-date information is held on record about grandparents, should children want to make contact with them later.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to his ten-minute Bill. As I am sure he realises from the response to his efforts, the courts already have power in adoption proceedings to make grandparents parties to those proceedings and it is therefore open to grandparents to ask the courts to make them parties. Grandparents who are made parties are eligible to apply for legal aid. In addition, the Children and Young Persons (Amendment) Act 1986, that comes into force this year, will allow the courts to make grandparents party to care proceedings, at the courts' discretion. I know how much the hon. Gentleman is concerned and I hear what he says about his Bill, but we are particularly anxious to resist a piecemeal approach to the reform of child care law. It is generally acknowledged that that has been the
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  cause of much of the confusion and uncertainty that we shall seek to remove by a Bill that we hope to present to the House before too long, based on the White Paper on child care law that we published in January 1987.
  If the hon. Gentleman reads again the White Paper entitled "The Law on Child Care and Family Services" he will see that the proposals on access include significant changes to the resolution of disputes about parents' access to children in care. In paragraph 55 we say that we
  "recognise the advantages of involving in the proceedings anyone who has a proper interest in the child's future and his welfare … anyone who is permitted to seek and is seeking legal responsibility for the child in the proceedings will be able to be a party. This will include anyone seeking a custody order such as a parent or stepparent or a person who is qualified to apply for a custodianship order. If the first two limbs of the proposed grounds for a care order"—
  which are set out in paragraph 59 of the document—
  "are satisfied, anyone who establishes that he has a proper interest in the child and who wishes to have custody of the child will be able to be a party."
  The White Paper says specifically in paragraph 56 that
  "Grandparents who wish to retain or take over custody of a child would be able to be parties".
  In paragraph 64 further comments about access are made. They would change the whole approach of the law by making it clear that reasonable access is to be presumed and that local authorities are to be encouraged to agree with parents about access before a court order is made. If agreement cannot be reached, the court has power to determine reasonable access when making a care order and will require any parties seeking alternatives to refer the matter back to court, if agreement on variation cannot be reached. That is quite different from what happened 10 years ago when only social workers could make such a decision.
  The hon. Gentleman asked why there appears to have been no action since publication of the White Paper. I assure him that we take seriously our responsibilities as set out in that White Paper. This is highly complex stuff. Our preliminary effort at producing a draft Bill has already created well over 80 clauses. We hope to introduce comprehensive reform as soon as possible, but nobody can anticipate the Gracious Speech in the autumn. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises that, but we intend to legislate as soon as parliamentary time is made available.
  The events in Cleveland, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, came to public attention barely weeks after publication of the White Paper in the spring of 1987. Those events are directly relevant and a full inquiry has taken place. We expect the report of Mrs. Justice Butler-Sloss shortly. We may need to revise some of our proposals in the light of her report, but it would not be wise to have an inquiry and a full judicial report only to ignore its findings. We regard the matter as requiring urgent attention, however.
  I hope that I have convinced the hon. Gentleman that Ministers share his concern and are determined to take action as quickly as possible. I wish him, his family and all his grandchildren a very happy holiday.

  Emergency Aid in Schools
  1.30 pm
  Mr. Neil Thorne: It is a great pleasure and privilege to have the opportunity to speak to the House today on the Government's policy towards training pupils in emergency aid in schools, because the matter is closely associated with the St. John Ambulance and because my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Education and Science, who has such a wonderful reputation for care and helpfulness to the community, is to reply to the debate.
  The community suffers 20,000 fatalities a year as a result of accidents at home, on the road and at work. That is a salutary fact, but quite a number of lives could be saved if the right action were taken in the first few minutes after the accident. When people are surrounded by others with some basic knowledge of emergency or first aid, their chances of survival are considerably enhanced.
  I was astonished, when I started to research this matter, that I could find no requirement to have first aid experience on hand for pupils in schools. I have seen a report by Dr. Jennifer Bennett, senior registrar in community medicine in the Brighton health authority, which says that, as far as she is aware, the civil law states that schools must provide for adequate first aid for pupils. The Department of Education and Science has issued guidelines, saying that all teachers should have a simple working knowledge of first aid and that it is also desirable that some teachers in every school should have specific first aid training.
  I understand that the health and safety at work regulations require first-aiders to be available in places of employment where there are more than 150 employees. In a large school, therefore, where there are more than 150 staff, it might he necessary to have not just one first aid post but as many as three to allow for absences and sickness. There is no requirement for a first-aider if there are fewer than 150 employees. Three first-aiders would, I believe, suffice for up to 450 staff, and there should be an extra first-aider for each additional 150 staff.
  No such legal requirement exists in regard to children, and that is a major mistake. As the law considers it necessary to have an average of one first aider for every 150 staff, one would expect a still higher proportion to be required in schools.
  The Department's guidelines propose that in
  "schools with less than 150 employees there should be an appointed person who is responsible for first aid and is available at all times when employees are present on the premises. Where there are more than 150 employees, a first aider holding a Health and Safety Executive-approved first aid certificate must be appointed. The appointed person is expected to do the following: administer minor first aid treatment, call for an ambulance in the event of serious illness or major injury and if a qualified first aider is not present maintain the contents of the first aid box or boxes."
  That leaves a large hole in our first aid precautions, particularly for the young. I should like my hon. Friend the Minister to consider that matter seriously and also to examine the need to train the young to look after themselves and others in an emergency.
  To encourage the process, St. John Ambulance, under its director, Robert Balchin has introduced a scheme called the "three cross award" scheme which is an excellent example of the way in which we can help ourselves to improve our knowledge. The scheme has many advantages
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  because the learning process starts early. The scheme is said to be designed for pupils from the age of 10 upwarcls, but I believe that there are considerable advantages in starting earlier still. One can teach children as young as six basic first aid skills. We must give young children the confidence they need. In first aid, as in all branches of education, it is confidence that counts. When action is required very quickly after an accident, children can come into their own.
  The "one cross award", which is suitable even for six-year-olds, covers the four stages of emergency procedure—the ABC of first aid, which involves checking for breathing, opening the airway, taking the wrist and carotid pulse, checking the level of consciousness and making an emergency phone call. Those are simple matters, which a six-year-old of average intelligence should be able to master. If he does, he is entitled to receive a "one cross award".
  The next stage is the "two cross award", which it is entirely possible for a nine-year-old to master. The techniques tackled at that stage are mouth-to-mouth ventilation, external chest compression and how to combine both processes to carry out full resuscitation. It is vital that the techniques are taught correctly and it is therefore important that the teacher should have sufficient knowledge.
  The "three cross award'', which is appropriate for pupils of 12 and older, deals with serious bleeding, fractures, shock, burns and scalds and checking for poison. A young person who gained that award would be competent in first aid. All young people should have the opportunity of learning first aid for their own advantage as well as for that of others. In a number of cases, young people have been able to save the lives of adults, including their parents, as a result of the knowledge that they have obtained under the schemes.
  There are one or two good examples. The first concerns the village of Bedlinog in Wales, 50 of whose residents—virtually all of them—know first aid. It is just as well that they do, because the young mother of two-year-old Richard Rees was in some panic when her child turned blue and was clearly suffocating. Three first-ciders, Mary Thomas and Pam and Doug Hughes, were able to unblock the child's airways and to keep him alive until the ambulance arrived. In that case, the ambulance had to come a considerable distance., and had they not intervened the child could have died.
  Young people have made a positive contribution in many other cases. Louise Mulholland of Hitchin was able to help Rayna Baines, who cut her leg on a glass door and needed about 80 stitches. That young girl stopped the flow of blood, which contributed greatly to saving Miss Baines' life. Had she not had that knowledge of first aid, there might have been a fatality in that case.
  Melanie Gates of Charlwood in Surrey helped to save the life of a 70-year-old lady who had fallen on ice and broken her leg and who had lain outside her front door in the cold for about two hours. That young girl implemented her knowledge of first aid and summoned the authorities, which ensured that the old lady was taken safely to hospital.
  Michael Annetts of Llanhilleth was able to help Paul Jones who, while playing, was covered in some paint that caught fire. Michael was able to save his friend from suffering serious injuries.

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  All those cases show us that these days we can do much more than simply dial 999. Many skills are acquired, and we should be imparting the knowledge to young people.
  These days we hear a great deal about violence on the football terraces and elsewhere. I like to think that those who learn how to save and protect life are much less likely to become involved in violent behaviour that is likely to maim others. If we could get the message over to all children, we should be going a long way to stopping some of the violence from which we suffer today. That valid and important view was also put forward by Peter Galloway, the assistant director general of St. John ambulance.
  There are more than 250,000 accidents every year. They are a serious drain on the resources of hospitals, which are expected to maintain 24-hour-a-day, 365-days-a-year emergency services. We have all experienced the outcry when the accident and emergency services in a local hospital are withdrawn. Vast amounts of NHS time and money are spent on coping with accidents and emergencies.
  We should remember that many cases are referred to hospital casualty departments that should be referred to the local doctor. Often people do not understand how serious the injury is, but if they were in possession of more information they could judge what was serious or what could be fairly dealt with by the general practitioner. It would save the Health Service much money.
  We should give every possible encouragement to the initiative taken by St. John Ambulance and ensure that our children receive proper first-aid education. We could do so at a modest cost. A video is available for about £15 and the other materials required would not cost more than £5. The modest cost of about £20 per school, which perhaps we could encourage some industries to sponsor, would be a worthwhile investment. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to consider sending a circular urging all schools to take this opportunity to ensure that the next generation are properly and adequately prepared to cope with emergencies.
  1.45 pm
  The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mrs. Angela Rumbold): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne) for raising this important topic. I thank him for his kind words about my responsibility to respond to him.
  I hope that I shall provide him with some reassurance that the Government recognise the value of emergency and first aid training for pupils in schools. We have taken account of that matter in our proposals for the national curriculum. We have also taken into account the excellent work being done by St. John Ambulance.
  My hon. Friend rightly said that there are 20,000 fatalities a year because of accidents. With sensible first-aid and emergency treatment, people would be able to minimise the number of fatalities that occur every year.
  My hon. Friend referred to Dr. Jennifer Bennett and her observations about the law as it relates to schools. At the beginning of September 1987, we issued a guidance note on first aid for schools and colleges. It says:
  "The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) recommends however that employers should consider how their requirements should be met. The general responsibility of LEAs, their schools and colleges, for taking reasonable care
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  of the pupils and students in their charge is enshrined in common law under the 'in loco parentis' doctrine. It follows that, although the above regulations do not specifically cover pupils and students in educational establishments, those responsible have a continuing duty to provide adequately for them and for any visitors on the premises.
  Where possible, it is sensible to combine first aid arrangements provided for employees with those for pupils, and account should be taken of the likely number of visitors. Some visitors however, such as contractors may themselves be `at work' and may remain the responsibility of their own employers. In this respect it should be noted that the Approved Code of Practice requires written arrangements between employers in respect of contractors and other persons who may be at work, e.g. caterers"
  and other people who come into schools as a result of other policies being introduced.
  "In general, combining arrangements are welcomed by the HSE so long as they do not dilute the level of provision for employees. DES also supports the need to avoid duplication of provision for staff and pupils in recommending that the contents of all first aid boxes should follow HSE guidelines. It is further recommended that whenever possible the provision of first aid personnel and equipment should take account of both employees and non-employees, based on the criteria in the Approved Code of Practice".
  A checklist is attached to the arrangements for first aid provision in schools and colleges. Establishments are invited to consider whether they have an adequate number of trained first-aiders to cover all locations, allowing for staff absences and impending retirements; whether there is an up-to-date list of first-aiders prominently displayed on the notice boards and other strategic locations; whether there are sufficient first aid boxes on the premises, including travelling kits for outside journeys, which are part and parcel of school life; whether there is a designated member of staff who is responsible for checking and maintaining the contents of first aid boxes; whether there is a properly equipped first aid room on the premises; whether there are prominently displayed up-to-date lists of local hospital casualty departments and GPs; whether there is a system for notifying parents and guardians when an accident occurs; whether all treated accident cases are recorded; and whether there is a clear procedure for notifying the appropriate authority of potential hazards. The latter point refers to chemistry laboratories and science laboratories generally. There are other check lists and my hon. Friend can be assured that schools take seriously their responsibilities in relation to members of staff who must be designated and the way in which first aid should be applied.
  First aid education is largely a matter for determination by individual schools and, in practice, depends on decisions taken by individual members of staff. Education about different aspects of first aid occurs throughout the curriculum and compulsory years of schooling. It may be considered within the science curriculum, with regard to aspects of human biology and electrical safety and guidance for young people in coping with accidents caused by electrical equipment. First aid education will typically be given through health education, which might be included within a programme of personal and social education, and, of course, within physical education given in the laboratories, on the sports fields and, I hope, in swimming pools. We hope that schools will also provide practical guidance for teachers in a range of different aspects of first aid.
  Guidance for pupils in resuscitation techniques is provided in swimming lessons, and the Government recognise the value and importance of that activity. There

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  are some limits to what schools could or should be expected to provide in first aid training for young people. There is no doubt that only a relatively small amount of the curriculum time devoted to such matters can be of long-term benefit to individuals receiving such training and to society as a whole. A small effort in basic first aid treatment provides extraordinarily long-term benefits.
  I am aware of my hon. Friend's involvement with St. John Ambulance. I think that all hon. Members appreciate that organisation's voluntary activities on so many public occasions. They may not be aware of the activities of St. John Ambulance in schools, which were outlined by my hon. Friend. For some time, St. John Ambulance has been running a schools project which has been designed to encourage as many young children as possible to remember simple skills of emergency aid. My hon. Friend wisely outlined the possibility of winning a first cross or second cross award for the simple skills that a six-year-old or nine-year-old may be able to master. My hon. Friend drew attention to the fact that the project was launched by Lord Joseph when he was Secretary of State for Education and Science, and we are well aware of the success that the project has had in persuading teachers to utilise first aid and safety skills to the best of their ability.
  I should like to refer to the success of the St. John Ambulance three cross award, mentioned by my hon. Friend, which was sponsored by Mr. Robert Balchin, the director general of St. John Ambulance. I understand that since its launch in 1984, 50,000 certificates have been awarded to young people who have been successful in demonstrating knowledge in first aid. That is to be welcomed and St. John Ambulance is to be congratulated on its success in persuading schools to employ the scheme.
  I have already referred extensively to the advice issued by my Department concerning first aid for pupils and teachers. I want to reiterate that that does exist and that guidance has been published.
  First aid education in schools is not simply a matter for St. John Ambulance; it can be taken on board throughout the curriculum. We believe that those points are recognised within the Government's proposals for the national curriculum. We have identified health and safety education as one of the cross-curricular themes that will be covered by different foundation subjects.
  We have already set up a working group to advise on programmes of study and attainment targets in science education. That has had a specific remit to cover scientific aspects of health and safety. In the interim report, which came to the Secretary of State last November, the working group identified scientific aspects of human health and well-being as one of the things that should be covered by science education in secondary schools.
  More recently, we set up the design and technology working group and included a similar remit to cover the technological aspects of health and safety education in the
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  workshop and outside school. We envisage that other foundation subjects, especially physical education, will cover health and safety and emergency aid.
  I hope that my hon. Friend will accept that at this stage it would be impossible to say precisely what sort of emergency aid education will feature in the national curriculum. So much has yet to be decided and we have to await the recommendations of the various working groups and the consultation processes. I hope that what I have had to say will be of some reassurance to my hon. Friend in terms of the guidance that we have provided for schools in the past and what we envisage will be covered within the national curriculum.
  Whatever aspects of first aid education are eventually covered by the national curriculum, I should emphasise that there will be adequate time left over, beyond the subjects that will be taken up by that curriculum, to enable youngsters to obtain additional information. As my hon. Friend said, first aid could be looked at in personal and social development for youngsters.
  The Government have emphasised that, in secondary years four and five, at least 70 per cent. of the curriculum time will be devoted to core and foundation subjects, but there will continue to be many important matters dealt with outside the curriculum. We attach considerable importance to that.
  Not all schools will necessarily have the expertise to be able to deliver a comprehensive first aid or emergency programme to all pupils. As I have said, they will sometimes have to rely on the expertise of others outside the school to provide young people with that sort of guidance. My hon. Friend will know that many youngsters are encouraged through schools to belong to a number of excellent voluntary organisations—such as the girl guides, the boy scouts and the boys' brigade and the girls" brigade movement, where first aid is something in which youngsters gain expertise. They learn a considerable amount about the process of saving life, minimising dangers to people in the event of an accident.
  We shall do what we can within the curriculum and we shall make it plain that there is nothing to prevent schools from joining aspects of the national curriculum with other aspects of emergency and first aid education in a co-ordinating programme of health education. We see this as an important part of what schools are all about. I hope that I have managed to reassure my hon. Friend that the advice issued by the Department about safety matters and our plans for a national curriculum demonstrate the importance that we attach to the issues that he has been kind enough to raise. We fully recognise the possible long-term benefits of emergency and first aid training for young people, which my hon. Friend so clearly demonstrated by the examples he gave of the youngsters who have managed to take action to save lives. I trust that this will be of some help and reassurance to my hon. Friend.

  Health Services (Waltham Forest)
  2 pm
  Mr. Harry Cohen: I thank the Minister for delaying her Whitsun break getaway to respond to the debate. I am afraid that that is the limit of the pleasantries, as the health cuts in Waltham Forest are not so pleasant. I can tell the Minister a true story, which happened this morning. I was travelling into the House on the train, and about four seats down sat a smart gentleman. He suddenly got out a piece of paper and stated writing a report, and I noticed that it said on the top, "Financial Strategy for Waltham Forest District Health Authority". He scribbled lots of notes that I could not read and then wrote the word "funding". A minute later he scribbled it out. That is appropriate to this debate and the Government's treatment of the health authority.
  I pay tribute to the local health workers, the nurses, ancillary workers and technicians. They are dedicated and efficient in the circumstances in which they have to work. I extend that tribute to many in management, who want the best possible for health care, although some seem to be fully prepared to wield the hatchet over Waltham Forest health authority, or sometimes think that managing the cuts means covering up the extent of the crisis in the Health Service and the consequences on local people. This has meant that Waltham Forest health authority has suffered in silence.
  Waltham Forest district health authority is a Tory dream health authority. It has done all and more of what the Government have required. The chairman, Mr. Sidney Wayne, in a letter to me on 11 January, said:
  "The Health Authority has already closed hospitals to provide the services more efficiently—the Connaught Hospital in 1976, Harts and Lugano Hospitals in 1984, the Jubilee Hospital in 1985 and the Forest Hospital in 1986. It is hard to see where further rationalisation can take place, although obviously we are continuing to explore all avenues where money can be saved … This year the pressures have started early and my managers have told the Health Authority that routine surgery will be greatly reduced at Whipps Cross over the next 3 months."
  The reducing of routine surgery follows a period when the hospital was on red alert, which meant that no routine cold surgery would be carried out. That was unprecedented in the length of its duration over the early winter.
  The effect on hospital waiting lists as a result of that reduced surgery and the red alert is likely to be appalling, but the health authority has done more than that. Over the years, we have seen ward closures, temporary closures—such as that of the psychiatric ward at present—that drift into permanency without proper public consultation, restrictions on community health provision and lower staffing levels. In the letter of 11 January the chairman of the health authority said that the staffing levels were low in many areas and the staff were poorly paid. He said that there was penny-pinching in, for example, maintenance, decoration and cleaning.
  I wrote to the Minister for Health pointing out that the contractors—it is a privatised cleaning service—
  "have difficulty in recruiting staff as their pay and conditions of work are appalling, and a great deal of staff time (nurses and administrators) is spent on "propping up" these contractors. There have also been complaints about the state of the grounds; rats having been seen recently and piles of rubbish surrounding the hospital."
  The health authority has made all those cuts, yet it will still have a deficit of more than £2 million at the end of this
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  financial year. It is fifth in the list of the top 10 health authorities in England with deficits. There is a serious shortage of funds to meet its requirements in the current financial year. The district health authority does all that, yet its only reward is that the Government and the regional health authority claim that it is efficient. I am sure that, once again, the Minister will bleat how wonderfully efficient it is. The Government have defined efficiency as working well with less, but, in Waltham Forest's circumstances, one can increase efficiency only with more in terms of resources and better working conditions.
  I have written to the regional health authority countless times. I received a letter from the general manager, Mr. Hunt, who said:
  "The efficiency savings are dependent on relative performance against a set of performance indicators. As one of the more efficient Districts, Waltham Forest has been required to make relatively low savings".
  Then he said:
  "The cumulative reduction in resources to Waltham Forest between 1982/83 and 1985/86 was £3·0 million (5·5 per cent.); although above the average for the Region as a whole (2·7 per cent.)".
  There is a direct contradiction in those two statements. I wrote to the general manager and asked him if he could arrange
  "to recompense Waltham Forest for the severe reductions it has been forced to make in the past and reward the District for its 'efficiency' as you imply should have been done."
  I shall return to his figures later, because they are wrong. Efficiency cannot be measured in that way.
  I received a letter from the community health council dated 23 February which made clear the sort of efficiency that we are talking about. It stated:
  "The CHC hears from people who have been in hospital that services are under a great deal of pressure: indeed they are frequently described as a conveyor belt. We also hear of problems resulting from people being discharged into the community too early and without preparation because of the drastic shortage of beds … Already, Whipps Cross does more complex work than the average general hospital and treats 30 per cent. more people each year than Barts, the London, or the Whittingham, and 75 per cent. more than the North Middlesex or Oldchurch. The Whipps Cross cost per case is the lowest of the Region's London hospitals and the cost per day is also very low. The CHC believes these figures indicate deprivation as much as efficiency, as increasing waiting lists show."
  One person's efficiency—the highest group call for beds is another person's deprivation—too few beds. There are many problems, such as higher demand, as a result of social factors.
  I said that I would come back to Mr. Hunt's figures. He claimed that the cuts in Waltham Forest amounted to 5·5 per cent. However, the report entitled "Health Trends", published by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, showed that Waltham Forest has had the largest cuts of any authority in the country inflicted on its resources for its hospital and community health services, amounting to 18·2 per cent. for the years 1982–83 to 1985–86. That is the real level of the cuts, for which the regional health authority does not even know the right figures. I have written to Mr. Hunt, putting his figures right, but still have not had a reply.
  What has not been mentioned is the level of dissatisfaction that has grown up. One example is the long waiting times in the accident and emergency unit at Whipps Cross hospital. An article in The Daily Telegraph

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  supplement of 7 February referred to the casualty department at Whipps Cross and quoted a senior house officer saying:
  "The other day someone was kept waiting for seven hours. That just is not acceptable."
  The hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin) lives in a neighbouring constituency and had the misfortune to hurt his hand. He tabled a question about his long wait at Whipps Cross. He also wrote to the general manager and received the reply:
  "On the particular day when you attended there were 330 patients attending. Each year we see 97,000 people in our department which I understand from the statistics produced is about twice as many as in the Casualty Department in your own constituency, although the staff there report a staffing level very similar to our own."
  Waltham Forest is, therefore, doing double the amount of work with the same number of staff. The general manager's letter to poor old Tim concluded:
  "The financial position facing this Health Authority next year is so serious that I believe that we will face significant curtailments in services although I have spent the past two years endeavouring to find any economies rather than close beds, although at times this has led to complaints such as yours about at inadequate service.
  I hope that your hand is better and that you will not require the services of our Accident Department in the near future."
  The situation at that accident and emergency unit is made worse because surrounding areas are closing their casualty units and restricting their hours whereas Whipps Cross is open 24 hours a day—almost like the old Windmill theatre—never closing. However, the hospital does not receive recognition of that fact from the Government or the regional health authority. Whipps Cross provides, in effect, the regional casualty service, and should be funded as such.
  More cuts are being demanded by the Government. The general manager of the health authority was forced to write a letter on 18 February to all her colleagues in the district management team referring to various cuts, stating:
  "Managers are looking carefully at all costs in areas that are not patient services …The District already has plans to close Leystonstone House and Claybury, and the financial arrangements for this also remain unclear."
  The letter then proposes that
  "no additional district money is put into the provision of community facilities for our residents who have a mental handicap or are mentally ill … reductions in patient services will have to be considered."
  The letter refers to the three ways in which those reductions can be made: closure of Claybury hospital—Thorpe Coombe hospital is also mentioned in that section; closures of a service or department; and ward closures at various hospitals. The letter says that family planning services cost £150,000 and community dentistry £320,000 and that they are under threat.
  I can bring the Minister up to date. That letter was written on 18 February and since then there have been more closures including the closure of an elderly persons' ward. There have also been cuts in community dentistry, in family planning services and in X-ray facilities at two hospitals. However, at the end of the last financial year, the health authority was £230,000 in the red and we are seeing more cuts now.
  An agenda item appeared last week on 19 May stating:
  "The difficulties the Health Authority has experienced this year in trying to resolve its deficit problem are likely to be repeated in future years."
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  That is certainly the case. Acute services are under enormous pressure. The same agenda item states:
  "The number of local Acute beds in 1987 was below the target set in the Regional Strategic Plan 1984/93, and below the bed norm related to the current standardised planning population for the district."
  The agenda continues:
  "Significantly, the local Acute case load which the Region assumed would fall to 21,000 cases per year in 1986 has in fact risen to 26,000 cases."
  The region has got its facts completely wrong. The agenda item also refers to
  "increasing pressure on Acute services which was evidenced in 1987 by restrictions on non-urgent admissions to Whipps Cross and a consequent slight reduction in the 1987 caseload."
  There are fewer patients despite a faster throughput. That is hardly greater efficiency. The agenda item continues:
  "1987 also saw an increase of 15 per cent. in the waiting lists over 1986 … a noticeably high proportion of non-elective admissions—76 per cent.—to all Acute hospital beds in Waltham Forest in 1987."
  That clearly shows the excessive strain in the acute services sector in Waltham Forest.
  Only last week the district authority decided to cut two acute wards at Wanstead hospital. One of them, the Jubilee ward, had just received a £150,000 upgrade. The other ward was used in the recent methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus outbreak. Those cuts come in addition to the cut of 37·8 per cent. in available beds ror acute and elderly cases between 1975 and 1988. That represents a decrease of 27·5 per cent. since 1979 and the figure is declining every year. High throughput is the sole claim for efficiency yet that has been achieved as a result of too few beds. That leads to premature discharge and cancelled admissions. There is an example in the local press of a man who had five admissions cancelled. Waiting lists are longer and many people give up waiting for the treatment that they need.
  In-patient waiting lists for all specialties have increased. Waiting lists for general surgery rose in the year ended September 1987 from 458 to 618. Ear, nose and throat waiting lists increased from 2,177 to 2,664. Orthopaedic waiting lists rose from 349 to 498. Gynaecology lists rose from 408 to 567, and urology from 217 to 460. The Government are even in breach of their own DHSS guidelines on how long urgent and non-urgent patients should have to wait for treatment.
  Maternity services have also been cut and are under enormous pressure. A report "London's maternity services in crisis" states:
  "Maternity units cannot cope with the growing number of births while bed numbers shrink, except by keeping women in hospital for shorter periods, and by maintaining dangerously high bed occupancy rates."
  The report refers to Waltham Forest hospital as a maternity unit already reaching the limits of efficiency where standards of care are suffering. The position has become worse with the closure of nearby maternity hospitals.
  Waltham Forest is an area of severe deprivation. It has one of the highest levels of deprivation in the region and is among the highest in the country, on the 1981 census figures. Many people live in poor housing. The area has the fifth highest number of pensioners, the sixth highest number of children under the age of five and the sixth highest number of large families. Its birthrate and infant mortality rate are higher than the national average. It has the highest overall death rate in London, according to

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  1977 figures, including causes ranging from pneumonia, bronchitis, emphysema and hypertensive heart disease. However, that deprivation is not recognised. Neither is there proper funding for the reprovision from Leytonstone house and Claybury by the early 1990s. Together, that represents a massive injustice to the people of Waltham Forest.
  There have been rumours of a secret report that there will be no more capital for reprovision. I hope that the Minister will, make it clear, if not today, at some future time, what the situation is. Waltham Forest's health service is in crisis. It is caused by the highest level of cuts in resources in the country, and yet Waltham Forest has some of the highest levels of health need. It is no longer appropriate to talk only of efficiency; we want to hear from the Minister about resources and money.
  There has been a place for the leech in the history of medicine and now it has returned in a new form. The DHA takes a bite, as is its bounden duty to the Government; the RHA is enormously sluggish and complacent in not admitting the scale of the cut; but the Government, as the biggest bloodsuckers, are draining away the lifeblood of the NHS. I hope that that damage will be reversed and that the people of Waltham Forest will get the health service that they want and deserve. I demand proper funding for Waltham Forest's health service.
  2.20 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mrs. Edwina Currie): This bloodsucker is more than content to take the stage with the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen). It is always a pleasure debating with him. He reminds me so strongly of my brother; he shares the same name and has very similar handwriting. As my brother made me an auntie yesterday, I feel even more disposed towards the hon. Member for Leyton than usual. I congratulate him on his success in winning the ballot for this debate on health service provision for Waltham Forest. I thank him for his kind thoughts about my holiday. I am sorry that it will not be starting yet because I shall shortly be on my way to Chester, to meet Mersey district and regional health authority chairmen.
  The hon. Gentleman has obliged me to make a brief reply. I hear what he says about deprivation and poor housing in Waltham Forest. However, in Waltham Forest the standardised mortality ratios for the main preventable diseases are very good. Not only are they better than the national average but they are better than the regional averages. The death rates in Waltham Forest from cancer and from heart disease are lower than the national average. Whatever else the hon. Gentleman's constituents and the health authority may be getting up to between them, it is evident that the people of Waltham Forest look after themselves. The death rate there from preventable diseases is one that I should like to see in other parts of the country. It is certainly much better than in my own constituency of Derbyshire, South. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the whole object of the exercise is to have healthy people and not necessarily to have full hospitals. The objective is to have people enjoying a full life and good health at the same time.
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  The hon. Member for Leyton bombards Ministers and regional and district general managers with letters, some of which make his points well and some of which do not. The hon. Gentleman mentioned particular major changes, and he will know the statutory situation. Any major changes in provision of service have to be put out by the health authority for consultation. If the community health council disagrees, it has the right to say so and to make alternative proposals. If the health authority continues to press forward with its plans, it must apply to Ministers for agreement or refusal. Therefore, I stand in a statutory relationship to the particular issues which the hon. Gentleman mentioned.
  Temporary closures are a different matter. If the health authority cannot staff a unit, it may have to take what amounts to emergency action. Recently, the courts clarified the law on consultation and on the term "temporary closures", and we expect local authorities to observe that legislation. That firmly applies also to the "secret report" to which the hon. Gentleman referred, which I understand has been circulating. In other words, if there are proposals for major changes, those affected must be consulted in the usual way.
  As the hon. Gentleman said, the MRSA ward at Wanstead hospital was set up when there was a high incidence of MRSA in the district. Recently, it has had a low occupancy, with an average of seven patients, and it is therefore wise for the health authority to consider whether it still needs a separate ward, or whether the patients could possibly be nursed in side rooms.
  Similarly, the health authority has sensibly examined the occupancy levels of beds allocated for general practitioner use. In some parts of the country, GP beds are extremely well used and a valuable asset to the community. In others they are allocated but the GPs do not use them. I understand that there is a proposal to close the GP beds at Wanstead and to provide alternative respite and terminal care facilities elsewhere in the district. The patients would not suffer, and the money previously allocated to the resource—which appears not to have been used very fully—could be used in other ways, perhaps to help clear the waiting list mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.
  The hon. Gentleman probably knows that an option appraisal is being developed on Wanstead hospital. However, as he is well aware, it is not in Waltham Forest but in Redbridge. The object of his exercise must be the same as the obligation on Waltham Forest health authority—to provide services for people in the district. That is how the service operates.
  On 14 April the hon. Gentleman wrote to Terry Hunt, regional general manager of North East Thames health authority, quoting a number of figures. I listened hard to what the hon. Gentleman said, but I am not sure whether the figures that he quoted were exactly the same. On that occasion the hon. Gentleman used figures from the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy. He is nodding vigorously. I have got him. Those figures were published last year and compared the revenue expenditure in the health authority in 1985–86 with that in 1982–83, which is a long time ago.
  The figures appear to show a real terms decrease of over 18 per cent. in the district allocation. The hon. Gentleman may have noted from volume 1 of the recent publication "Health Service Trends"—I do not see him nodding—that that apparent decrease is substantially accounted for by

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  changes in the way the regional health authority made allocation for the service provided at Claybury hospital, and the transfer of services and associated expenditure from Langthorne hospital to Newham health authority. The decrease was not represented by reductions in service. It is a transfer of cash, and there is a good reason for it.
  The expenditure was transferred in that way so that the health authorities providing services in the large mental illness and mental handicap institutions, but providing them to people from outside, should have the money transferred to the user authorities. The idea is that the user authority will pay the provider authority. It is partly intended to encourage the user authority to start developing community services for those people so that they can be cared for at home or locally, and good prevention and rehabilitation services can be provided. We hope to see that happening. This greatly distorts the comparisons made by the hon. Gentleman.
  As the hon. Gentleman will know, the regional health authorities decide allocations to districts. This year North-East Thames regional health authority's initial net revenue allocation is £1,084 million—over £1 billion. That is a cash terms increase of 8 per cent. over last year and represents a real terms increase of more than 4 per cent.—way above inflation—and, therefore, substantial growth in revenue funding.
  In the last year Waltham Forest appears to have been very prudent, managing to stay within its limits, and in the current year it will receive more money. First, it will receive £300,000 from the Department's special fund, which is intended to compensate the health authorities which will not be gainers under the RAWP formula—which was set up by the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) when he was Minister of Health. I understand that the money will be used for the introduction of a community management computer system and other projects. Secondly, £100,000 has been allocated to the authority from the waiting list fund to enable extra cases to be treated from the ear, nose and throat and general surgery lists.
  Thirdly, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, there is a £9 million scheme under way at Whipps Cross, which will provide three new wards, four new operating theatres, a new out-patients department and rehabilitation facilities at the hospital. That will be a considerable improvement for his constituents. We are receiving reports that the health authority, which is very hard working and competent, is successful in delivering services to local people.
  The hon. Gentleman is quite right that the accident and emergency department of Whipps Cross hospital is very busy and that it is the hardest working in the whole region. I understand that it deals with about 260 patients a day, of whom 45 are admitted. I hope that this does not reflect on any weaknesses of or lack of accessibility to local general practitioners. There are more than 200 general practitioners in the Redbridge and Waltham Forest family
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  practitioner committee area. It is for the clinicians concerned to decide who is an emergency and who is not, and emergencies take precedence. It is a very busy hospital and a very busy casualty department and it is not supposed to be providing an alternative service to GPs.
  It being half-past Two o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

  Health Services (Waltham Forest)

    PROCEDURE
    Ordered,
    That a Select Committee of not more than seventeen Members be appointed to consider the practice and procedure of the House in the conduct of public business, and to make recommendations.
    Ordered,
    That five be the quorum of the Committee.
    Ordered,
    That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House, to adjourn from place to place and to report from time to time.
    Ordered,
    That Mr. Tony Banks, Mr. Nicholas Bennett, Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours, Sir William Clark, Mr. Frank Cook, Mr. Stan Crowther, Sir Peter Emery, Mr. Harry Ewing. Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop, Sir Charles Morrison, Mr. Cranley Onslow, Mr. William Powell, Mr. Roger Sims and Mr. James Wallace be Members of the Committee.
    Ordered,
    That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House until the end of this Parliament.—[Mr. David Hunt.]

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That, at any sitting at which Motions relating to the Wolverhampton Urban Development Area Order 1988, the Bristol Development Corporation (Area and Constitut:ion) Order 1988, the Sheffield Development Corporation (Area and Constitution) Order 1988, the Leeds Development Corporation (Area and Constitution) Order 1988 and the Central Manchester Development Corporation (Area and Constitution) Order 1988 may be made by a Minister of the Crown, notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1(b) of Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business), Mr. Speaker shall put the Questions on the said Motions not later than one and a half hours after the first of them has been entered upon.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]
    Mr. Nigel Spearing: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My interpretation of the third motion is that if it were to be discussed, five statutory instruments relating to urban development corporations would have to be discussed within the hour-and-a-half limit. I do not know whether you are able to confirm that that is the purport of the motion or whether it would be for the Leader of the House to explain that that is its purport, should it again be moved. I do not know whether you can help me on that matter.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mir. Harold Walker): I am afraid that I cannot help the hon. Gentleman. It is not a matter for me.
    The Question is as on the Order Paper.
    Hon. Members: Object.

Orders of the Day

  Electricity (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Ordered,
  That the Bill be referred to the Scottish Grand Committee.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]

  Basildon
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]
  2.31 pm
  Mr. David Amess: For the last five years I have been proud and privileged to represent what I believe to be not only the finest new town in the country but what I think will become the finest town in Europe. I was particularly delighted to be re-elected last year, because in the last Parliament we laid the foundations for the success of this country and for the success of Basildon in particular. The town can take advantage of that fine opportunity and I hope that it will blossom and mature.
  It has been brought to my notice that not everybody in the country describes Basildon in such glowing terms. For that reason, I launched a campaign three weeks ago called "I love Basildon—I'm backing Basildon." I am delighted to be able to say that within a very short time the local community has rallied round and given tremendous support to the campaign. Its purpose is to emphasise all the good things that are happening in Basildon and then to entreat the community to work together in an attempt to solve whatever problems we may have.
  All kinds of competitions are being held, involving organisations from play groups to senior citizens. By the time the campaign is finished, everybody will be aware of what a wonderful place Basildon is to live in. The media have been very supportive in the campaign.
  There is no place in Basildon for the vandal, the litter lout or the graffiti artist. Such anti-social behaviour will be dealt with severely. The "I love Basildon" campaign intends to emphasise that fact.
  We shall also be holding a competition in which local residents will be invited to submit tunes for the "I love Basildon" campaign. A record will be made that includes local celebrities and local people. I hope that the record will become a No. 1 hit. Any royalties from it will be used to support our local hospice, St. Luke's.
  I congratulate the development corporation, and now the Commission for the New Towns, on the work that they have done in developing and building the town in the past four decades. In particular, I pay tribute to all the staff, the chairman of the Commission for the New Towns, Sir Neil Shields, and its general manager, Mr. Douglas Galloway, who will shortly be retiring after 30 years of service. Although I have not always agreed with everything that the CNT has done, its work has been invaluable to our community. People have naturally begun to take its work for granted. They have found it difficult to accept the change of responsibilities from the development corporation to that of the CNT. It is quite clear to me that we must now look positively towards the day when Basildon is on its own. We have to plan carefully for that event, especially as regards housing and the disposal of assets.
  I am delighted with the progress that has been made with the wishes of tenants in the Felmores estate to have individual central heating. Throughout the previous parliament, a succession of Ministers visited Basildon to listen to constituents' complaints about the high heating costs and the inefficient system on Felmores. Many tenants were unhappy with the quality of the heat provided and the frequent, high heating bills.
  The Felmores heating action group fought long and hard for tenants to be consulted on the matter, so I am

  693
  pleased that a referendum was held recently. It would be extremely helpful if my hon. Friend the Minister could say whether the result of the referendum will be acted on, and, if there is to be a change in the heating system, when the work will be carried out.
  Now that that matter has been dealt with, I hope that the Department will turn its attention to constituents at the other end of the town, in Langdon hills, who have a similar heating system and similar problems. I hope that they will be given an opportunity to decide what best suits their needs.
  Basildon is well known for the diversity of its housing estates—most builders and designers have been given an opportunity to demonstrate their work in the town. Some of the building is superb, but some has been disastrous for my constituents.
  One estate where there are many problems is of the SIPOREX type. They are bland, concrete buildings and were built following a supposedly successful pilot scheme involving half a dozen buildings in part of my constituency. An enormous amount of money has been spent on them over the years, but there are still many problems.
  In 1979, the Labour Government refused to pull them down. Instead, they embarked on a course of renovation. There have been problems of settlement and movement of the foundations. Many of the dwellings have had to be underpinned. Some people want to purchase their homes, but mortgages have proved difficult to obtain as no insurance company is prepared to back them. There have been problems with ceilings, windows and general dampness. In short, the estate was poorly designed and the people who live there deserve something better.
  I hope that there will soon be a meeting of representatives of the local action group and my hon. Friend the Minister to discuss the best way forward. My hon. Friend will also he aware of the Government's involvement last year with defective properties in Vange. There were approximately 1,000 HSSB properties there. The various Ministers involved with the problem rallied round and eventually awarded compensation to the people who found it impossible to sell their homes because they were judged defective. I am delighted to tell the House that the number of people who are still in difficulty has been reduced to 80. I hope that my hon. Friend will view their circumstances sympathetically.
  The market is an important part of East End culture. We have two excellent markets—in Pitsea and in Basildon. Stallholders have traded successfully for several years. They have added to the quality of life in our town and we want them to remain, as is demonstrated by the many letters that I have received on the subject and by the petition with which I was recently presented.
  Traders from both markets have been to see me and are keen to purchase the sites from which they sell their goods. They are confident that they can raise the necessary capital, and they expected to be given the first opportunity to purchase the two sites. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister has corresponded with one of those groups at least, so she will be aware of the strength of feeling on this subject. The local authority rent paid to the CNT for the Basildon market site has remained very low for a number of years—approximately £10,000. The traders, however, have paid the local authority more than £450,000 a year for their 121 stalls. Because of the serious financial position that the council has got itself into, it is naturally
  694
  reluctant to give up that source of rental income. It is clear that the interests of the two parties are in conflict. However, it would be quite wrong to jeopardise the position of the market traders because of the fiscal irresponsibility of the former Labour council. My only concern is for the livelihood of the traders, and that depends upon them being able to trade from their present open market sites. I trust that their future will be secure.
  Let me deal specifically with the question of the future of the New Towns Commission housing in Basildon. There are approximately 15,100 such properties, arid by and large the tenants are content with their present landlord. It is well known that at some stage, the CNT, in the course of disengaging itself from the town, will hand over its housing stock to a successor authority. In the late 1970s, the then Labour council refused to take over responsibility for the housing stock despite being offered the opportunity on very favourable terms. Now the Labour party has the nerve to question the integrity of the CNT's action. The Labour party has gone out of its way to alarm people—particularly the elderly—by issuing false statements and making what I can only describe as a disgraceful video-nasty. The barrage of propaganda has alarmed people so much that they actually believe that their properties will fall into the hands of wicked landlords, that their rents will shoot sky-high and that they will be thrown on to the streets. I utterly condemn those methods, which are inspired more by a desire to gain political advantage than a desire to assist an orderly transfer of housing.
  In spite of repeated reassurances by Ministers, Socialist activists have gone out of their way to issue false information in an attempt to create general hysteria. As a result, people are now worried about something that will not happen. The Housing Bill, currently in the other place, makes it perfectly clear that tenants will be consulted about their future landlords.
  One group that can be totally absolved of any irresponsibility in this matter is the joint estate management co-ordinating committee, to whose members I pay tribute. They work extremely hard on a voluntary basis to try to help individual tenants with their problems. At the moment they are feeling a little hard done by. As I heard at a meeting only this week, they feel that they are not being kept properly informed of the options that are being considered for the future management of the properties. The group is ideally placed to allay people's fears and a meeting between the Minister and a few of its representatives would be most useful.
  For my part, I am concerned that tenants are properly consulted and are given clear options so that they can decide who is the best landlord to manage their property. There has been endless talk of a referendum in which 98 per cent. of tenants apparently said that they wanted to become tenants of the council. That exercise, conducted at ratepayers' expense, was no more than a cynical attempt to influence the outcome of a local election. How can a referendum be held by people who do not even own the housing stock and who are unable to give voters a choice on the options? It was conducted by people who do not know the meaning of democracy and who are interested in consultation only when they are sure that the result will please them.
  We are not clear who runs Basildon council. There are supposed to be democratically elected representatives, but there is no clear majority for one party. That does little for

  695
  staff morale. We do not know whether the council wants to take over the management of the property, or even whether it can afford to do so. The impression has been given that as people are more or less content to stay with their present landlords and do not wish to change, they will opt for the local authority. But it should be made clear that the Commission for the New Towns is not the same as the council. Judging from letters that I have received from the local authority's 5,500 tenants, theirs is not exactly a utopian existence. If the local authority took over the management of the properties, rents may be greatly increased.
  I am anxious that the housing stock in Basildon is brought up to a high standard and is well managed. Any remaining land sold for housing purposes should be set aside for low-cost properties for single people or young married couples. The revival of the shared ownership scheme would be welcomed. I approach the Whitsun recess in the knowledge that my hon. Friend the Minister will do everything that she can to assist the town, and that "I love Basildon" will be forever engraved upon her heart.
  2.46 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mrs. Marion Roe): I must congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess) on his choice of subject for this debate and for the effective manner in which he put forward the concerns of his constituents on a wide range of matters.
  My hon. Friend has a fine record as an advocate for Basildon and its people and I have no doubt that the "I love Basildon" campaign that he recently helped to initiate will help even further to enhance the image of Basildon among those who live and work there.
  Of the issues raised by my hon. Friend in this debate, the one that I would like to deal with initially is housing transfer. This has been a topic for much rumour and erroneous comments by the press in recent months and I am glad to have an opportunity now to set out the facts and reassure the commission's tenants in Basildon that their best interests are dominant in our thoughts. The overriding principle that my ministerial colleagues and I wish to be adhered to in the transfer of new town housing to alternative landlords is that the tenants should be given a say. That is an integral and important part of our housing policy—tenants have a right to choose.
  The right to choose was introduced for the first time for new town tenants in Peterborough last year. The individual wishes of tenants were made known through a formal vote and their choice of either the city council or a local housing association will be respected. The right to choose will apply in all future transfers of new town housing, including Basildon.
  That raises the inevitable question of when tenants will be given the opportunity to choose. At the moment, transfer to local authorities on the financial terms for which they have asked is not possible without new legislation. They, reasonably and fairly, want the housing on the same terms as are being offered to the other prospective landlords competing for the housing stock, that is, for them to acquire the houses at tenanted market value, rather than on the basis of outstanding housing loan debt. The New Towns Act 1981 allows for the latter
  696
  possibility only for local authorities. We are planning, therefore, to provide in the next Session for repeal of part III of the New Towns Act 1981 on housing transfers and the introduction of new powers to allow for that. Basildon district council will be able to compete on the same financial terms as other prospective landlords for the new town housing in Basildon. However, it seems likely that the new powers will not be enacted before April 1990 at the earliest. It seems much more sensible, therefore, if the remaining new town tenants voted nearer the time about whether that transfer could take place.
  Another important consideration arises from the need for that new legislation and our intention, annnounced in last November's White Paper, to legislate on local authority housing accounts. Until the implications of the forthcoming legislation are clear and have been fully digested by the councils, it is impossible for them to put a clear and definite prospectus to tenants on the services that they will be able to offer and the charges that they will have to make. We have a commitment to let tenants choose. That choice, which is probably one of the most important decisions that they will ever make, must be made on the basis of full and certain facts.
  Tenants have a right to know what their likely rent levels will be in the first few years under their new landlord. They need to know what services they will get for their rent, when their houses will be painted and how long it will take to get repairs done.
  It has become clear that the information available to tenants in Peterborough on those matters was not adequate. Tenants, the city council and the housing associations all agree on that. That information is not available yet, so it seems wrong to ask tenants to make that crucial choice now. I have, therefore, decided that in new towns where the local authority wants to bid for the housing, tenant consultation should not take place until the information is available. I recently informed the development corporations in Warrington and Telford of that decision as preparations for tenant consultation were well advanced, but the principle applies elsewhere, including Basildon.
  I move to how that applies to the commission and its housing at Basildon in particular. The commission had written to my Department concerning an inquiry from a private property company about acquiring some of the Basildon stock. The disclosure to which my hon. Friend referred was our response to that and the express purpose was to remind it of the need to consult its tenants and to set out the key principles on housing transfer, which I elaborated earlier.
  It was suggested that the best way forward would be for the commission to prepare a comprehensive disposal strategy for its housing, as in the other new towns. The commission is keen to prepare such a strategy as it accords with its wish to disengage from being a housing authority at the earliest opportunity. Such a strategy would remove the current uncertainties, which naturally are of concern to the commission's tenants and staff in Basildon in particular. I hope that the commission will be putting forward its proposals to my Department in the near future.
  Clearly, it is too early to speculate on which prospective landlords will be identified to compete with the council at Basildon. However, I reiterate the commitments on housing transfer which will apply in Basildon. First, there will be a formal vote for tenants to choose their new landlord. Secondly, the individual choice of tenants will be

  697
  respected. Thirdly, Basildon district council can bid for the commission's housing if it wants to. Fourthly, tenant consultation will take place only when I am convinced that tenants can make an informed choice of new landlord on the basis of available information. This is largely dependent on new legislation, and means that it will not take place for a couple of years.
  I felt it important that I should put clearly on record the Government's policy on new town housing transfer, especially the way in which it will affect the tenants of new town housing at Basildon.
  My hon. Friend raised a number of other issues relating to Basildon and the role of the Commission for the New Towns. In the time remaining, I will attempt to give him a response.
  My hon. Friend referred to the strained relationship that developed at Basildon between the Commission for the New Towns and the district council. Such incidents are always regrettable, and I hope that, with the recent change in the political complexion of the council, rather better relationships will develop.
  My hon. Friend raised the disposal by the Commission for the New Towns of Pitsea and Basildon markets. The commission's agents in Basildon said that tenants and market stall licensees at the Pitsea centre would be given the opportunity to form a consortium to purchase the property. This unfortunately appears to have been a premature notification, and the commission has since come to the view that wider considerations need to be taken into account before a final decision is taken on whether to offer the freehold of the centre for sale. I understand that the commission has written to the National Market Traders Federation to explain the position. I assure my hon. Friend that the commission is aware of the very strong interest of the tenants and market traders in the future of the Pitsea centre and that it will keep them advised of any further action.
  The position regarding Basildon market is somewhat different. I understand that the Commission for the New Towns is in negotiation with the local council regarding the renewal of the lease under which the council manages the market. This is clearly a matter of some commercial sensitivity and not one on which it would be appropriate to comment further at this stage. Unlike Pitsea market, however, I understand that the commission no longer owns the freehold of Basildon market and cannot therefore offer if for sale to the market traders.
  I shall now turn to the points raised by my hon. Friend on the re-purchase of HSSB houses at Basildon currently being carried out by the commission. Since the then Minister for Housing, Urban Affairs and Construction announced in November 1986 that the Commission for the New Towns would be authorised to offer to buy owner-occupied HSSB dwellings, excellent progress has been made with the re-purchase programme. Of the 300 dwellings involved, over 400 have now been re-purchased and others are currently in negotiation.
  I recognise that a small number of owner-occupiers may be unwilling or unable to take advantage of the re-purchase option. However, I can assure my hon. Friend that an early termination of the re-purchase option is not envisaged. The remaining owner-occupiers are therefore
  698
  under no pressure to sell back to the commission. Before any decision to terminate the scheme is taken, the interest of owner-occupiers who still remain will, of course, be given careful consideration. However, in view of the relatively short time since the re-purchase programme commenced, I feel that it would be premature to consider alternative options for dealing with the residual cases at this stage.
  I should now like to refer to the points raised by my hon. Friend in relation to SIPOREX housing at Basildon. As my hon. Friend is aware, another system-built estate constructed by the former Basildon development corporation has given rise to serious structural problems. A major programme of structural repairs was carried out some years ago, which was followed by a programme of window replacement and heating improvements. I understand that problems are, nevertheless, still being experienced with these houses, and I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Housing and Planning has agreed to meet a delegation of tenants. We shall of course, be happy to consider what further action is required in the light of that meeting.
  I shall turn to the points raised by my hon. Friend on the replacement of the district heating system on the Felmores estate at Basildon. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks on that. As he has said, because of the dissatisfaction with the district heating system, I agreed earlier this year that the commission should consult the residents on three alternative options. These were significantly to upgrade the operation and efficiency of the district heating system or to replace it with either individual gas or individual electric heating systems. In the event, 78 per cent. of those voting opted for the individual gas option. Given the weight of opinion in favour of this option, the commission is now preparing, for my approval, detailed proposals for the removal of the district heating system and its replacement by individual gas heating in each dwelling.
  The situation on the Langdon Hills estate, which is also served by a district heating system, is rather different. The introduction of metering and the conversion of the boiler to operate on gas rather than oil has significantly improved the efficiency of the system and there is clearly far less tenant dissatisfaction generally with the district heating system than at Felmores. We have no proposals, therefore, to conduct a tenant consultation exercise on the district heating system at Langdon Hills or to replace the system with some alternative heating method.
  My hon. Friend referred also to the need for land sales by the commission in Basildon at discounted values as a means of providing low-cost housing for rent. I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern about the need for such provision. It would be initially for the commission to come forward with such proposals, but it would need to be clearly justified before I could consider approval.
  I hope that what I have been able to say has reassured my hon. Friend and his constituents about the future of new town housing in Basildon.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at two minutes to Three o'clock till Tuesday 7 June, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of 25 May.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Cash Limits
  Mr. Devlin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give details of any revised cash limits for his Department's Votes.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  Subject to parliamentary approval to the necessary supplementary estimate, cash limits for the following Votes will be revised as follows:

  Vote

  Current cash limit

  Increase-decrease

  Revised cash limit

  £

  £

  £

  Class XII

  Vote 1

  463,655,000

  16,366,000

  480,021,000

  Class XII

  Vote 3

  1,843,563,000(1)

  -53,000

  1,843,510,000

  Of these changes, £1,900,000 will be charged to the reserve and £14,436,000 is contained within the planned provision for programmes. There will therefore be no increase in the planned total of expenditure.

  Additional provision is sought for Class XIII, Vote 1 as follows:
  Fifty three thousand pounds to enable the Cranfield institute of technology to participate in the programme for manufacturing systems engineering courses. This increase to be offset by a matching reduction in provision on Class XIII, Vote 3.
  Eleven million, four hundred and thirteen thousand pounds for costs associated with the establishment, subject to the passage of the Education Reform Bill, of the National Curriculum Council; the School Examination and Assessment Council; the Polytechnics and Colleges Funding Council and the Education Assets Board.

  Welsh Language
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will list those of his Department's forms, leaflets and pamphlets in relation to university education in Wales which were issued in bilingual or Welsh language format.

  Mr. Jackson
  Most publications concerning university education in Wales are issued by other agencies: the Department does not use the Welsh language in its publications.

  Lecturers
  Mr. Summerson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he will take to reorganise the pay structure of lecturers in further education so that they receive promotion through merit rather than by effluxion of time.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The Department has only observer status on the National Joint Council (Further Education).
  342
  The grade of a lecturer is currently determined largely by the level of teaching in which he or she is engaged, and whether he or she has management responsibilities. The basic lecturer grade will from July have a salary maximum of £15,369—£1,506 more than a school teacher on the main professional grade who does not hold an incentive allowance. Progression to the next grade is automatic only for lecturers engaged for 50 per cent. of their time essentially on courses above A-level standard, and it is possible for progression to be refused on the grounds that a lecturer is inefficient. Progression to the remaining grades is on merit. Further education lecturers are thus not generally guaranteed promotion within the existing pay structure on the basis of length of service alone. The Government will be looking to the further education sector in the years ahead to refine this salary structure so as to provide further incentives for good cost-effective teaching.

  A-levels (Bolton)
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many pupils in Bolton's secondary schools took A-level examinations during 1986 and 1987; and how many are scheduled to sit the examination in the current year.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  In 1985–86, 710 school leavers from maintained schools in Bolton attempted A-levels and 670 achieved one or more A-level passes. Information for 1987 and 1988 is unavailable.

  Pupils (Equal Opportunities)
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give guidance to local education authorities about the implications of the recent decision in the courts with respect to equal opportunities between male and female pupils.

  Mr. Dunn
  I assume the hon. Member is referring to the recent decision by the Court of Appeal to uphold the earlier High Court ruling that Birmingham city council was guilty of unlawful sex discrimination in providing fewer selective places for girls than for boys in the city's maintained grammar schools. I understand that the council now intends to appeal against the judgment to the House of Lords. My right hon. Friend wishes to await the outcome of that appeal before considering whet her it would be appropriate to offer any guidance to local education authorities.

  Dementia
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the current level of funding by his Department for research into problems associated with dementia in the elderly.

  Mr. Jackson
  The Medical Research Council, which receives a grant in aid from this Department, is the main agency through which Government fund medical research in the United Kingdom. In 1986–87, the last financial year for which figures are available, the council spent £4:15,000 on projects directly related to dementias and a further £2·4 million on research that could increase our understanding of dementias. Some support for research on dementia is also provided through UGC block grants to universities and medical schools.

  Aging
  Mr. lawn Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many research students are funded by the Medical Research Council; and what proportion of the total are engaged in research into aging.

  Mr. Jackson
  I understand that the Medical Research Council is currently supporting 605 research students. The council does not hold any information on the proportion of these students engaged on research into aging.

TRANSPORT

  Planning Inquiries (Reports)
  Mr. Tom Arnold
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he will take steps to introduce in England and Wales a facility for the proposal of corrections of facts in drafts of inspectors' reports at planning inquiries, similar to that which already exists in Scotland.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  We have no plans to make such a change.

  Air Routes
  Mr. Snape
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if, when he next meets the chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority, he will discuss the criteria to be used at the route licence hearings involving the former British Caledonian routes from Gatwick to Nice, Oslo, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  In view of his appellate role, it would be improper for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to discuss individual cases with the chairman. The authority will consider these applications on the evidence and arguments presented, in the light of its duties and its current statement of air transport licensing policies.

  Mr. Snape
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the implications of the decision by the Civil Aviation Authority not to award the Gatwick-Brussels route formerly operated by British Caledonian Airways to British Airways for Her Majesty's Government's policy on competition and consumer choice in aviation.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State does not comment on the implications of specific licensing decisions which may be subject to appeal to him.

  Road Schemes (Kent)
  Mr. Speed
  To ask the Secretay of State for Transport if he will list his Department's proposed road improvement or new road schemes costing £100,000 or more which are planned to start in Kent within the next five years.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  "Policy for Roads in England: 1987" (Cm125) lists the following national trunk road programme schemes in Kent:

  (a) Planned start of construction to March 1989.

  M20

  Maidstone-Ashford.

  A282

  Dartford-Thurrock Crossing and Approach Roads.

  (b) Planned start of construction April 1989 to March 1991

  A20

  Folkestone-Dover Stage 1 (Folkestone-Court Wood)

  A249

  A2 Junction-M2 Junction Dualling

  A249

  Iwade Bypass

  344
  (c) Planned start of construction from April 1991 onwards

  M2

  Widening between Junctions 1–3

  M20

  Widening between Junctions 5–8 (Maidstone Bypass)

  A20

  Folkestone-Dover Stage 2 (Court Wood-Dover)

  A21

  Kipping's Cross-Lamberhurst Improvement

  A21

  Lamberhurst Bypass

  A21

  Tonbridge Bypass-Pembury Bypass Improvement

  A259

  New Romney Bypass

  A259

  St. Mary's Bay and Dymchurch Bypass

  A261

  M20–A259 Hythe Improvement

  In addition work to provide hard shoulders on the A2 from the London boundary to the M2, phased over the period 1985–1991, is continuing. Construction of the Maidstone-Ashford section of the M20 should start later this year. The start dates for the remaining schemes are dependent upon the completion of the statutory procedures.

  The Department is also considering the following trunk road schemes in Kent, costing £100,000 or more, within its south-east regional programme:—

  M20

  Traffic lights at the Junction 7 exit.

  M25

  Crossovers between Junction 5 and the Surrey boundary.

  A2

  Lighting to the west of the Medway towns.

  A2

  Central reserve safety fencing between the M2 and Harbledon; and between Harbledon and Bridge.

  A21

  Central reserve safety fencing between the A225 and A2014.

  A249

  Brielle Way Improvement.

  A259

  Improvement to the Junction with the A2070 at Brenzett.

  A259

  Taylors Lane—Coast Drive Improvement.

  A259

  Tartane Lane—Tudor Avenue Improvement.

  A259

  Park Farm/Pavilion Road Junction Improvements.

  A259

  Shorncliffe Road, Castle Road and Cheriton Avenue Junction Improvements.

  Passenger Ferries
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Stretford on 23 May, if he plans to alter his definition of and acceptable evacuation time for a passenger ferry; if the research programme to which he refers is concerned with evacuation time; and when he expects it to report.

  Mr. David Mitchell
  The maximum evacuation time of 30 minutes, which is the time within which the muster and evacuation arrangements (including the launching and deployment of lifeboats and other life-saving appliances) must enable the ship to be evacuated, came into force on 1 July 1986 and there are no plans to alter it. The research programme referred to in my answer on 23 May is concerned with facilitating movement in, and escape from, a ship at high angles of heel and not with evacuation time. I expect to receive a report on this work by spring 1989.

  North Sea Surveyor (Collision)
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he has taken to hold an inquiry into the collision on 7 May between the Danish-registered Pandalus and the North Sea Surveyor which resulted in the death of two fishermen; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Mitchell
  The collision involved two foreign vessels—the Danish fishing vessel Pandalus and the Norwegian survey ship North Sea Surveyor. The Danish and Norwegian authorities are conducting their own
  345
  inquiries and surveyors from my Department are co-operating with them. The question of a fatal accident inquiry is a matter for the procurator fiscal.

  Fishing Vessels (Collisions)
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many recorded collisions there have been between fishing vessels and other ships in the North sea in each of the past five years.

  Mr. David Mitchell
  The following table shows the numbers of collisions in the Department's records, between fishing vessels and other ships in the North sea, since 1983.

  Number

  1983

  1

  1984

  5

  1985

  4

  1986

  1

  1987

  2

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many meetings have been held between his officials and representatives of the Scottish fishing industry in connection with accidents or near misses of fishing boats and other seafaring vessels in each of the last five years; and if he will list such incidents in the Official Report.

  Mr. David Mitchell
  There has been one formal meeting between my officials and representatives of the Scottish fishing industry within the last five years devoted specifically to accidents or near misses of fishing boats and other seafaring vessels. And there have been a number of meetings at which accidents involving fishing vessels have been among the topics for discussion, notably those of the fishing industry safety group on which the Scottish industry is represented. This group meets regularly, and has held 11 meetings since April 1983.

  Mobility Advice and Vehicle Information Service
  Mr. Tom Clarke
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many disabled people have visited the mobility advice and vehicle information service since its foundation.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  Since January 1986, 493 disabled people have attended for assessments and advice on driving and car adaptations; and a further 7,702 have been given advice by telephone or letter. In addition several hundred disabled people and professionals in the disability field have visited the centre as individuals or in groups.

  Tachographs (Repairs)
  Mr. Jack
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what measures he proposes to introduce regarding the approval of tachograph repairers.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  We have today issued a consultation paper setting out in detail proposals for a new scheme for approving tachograph repairers, following preliminary consultation last year. Copies are available in the Library.

PRIME MINISTER

  National Health Service
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Prime Minister if she will make a statement on co-ordination between the Department of Health and Social Security and the Scottish Office of Government policy towards the future development of the National Health Service, with particular reference to the inquiry currently in progress and its consideration of matters of particular application to Scotland; and what representations she has received on this subject.

  The Prime Minister
  The circumstances of the Health Service in Scotland will be taken fully into account in our review of the National Health Service. The Scottish Office and the Department of Health and Social Security are closely in touch on these matters.

  Year 2000 (Celebration Plans)
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Prime Minister if she will report on progress of the Government's plans to celebrate the year 2000.

  The Prime Minister
  I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess) on 23 February 1988 at column 126.

  Gibraltar (Shootings)
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Prime Minister whether any Government Department in the United Kingdom or its representatives abroad were consulted about the decision to delay the inquest on the three Irish Republican Army members shot in Gibraltar; and if she will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  The decision to delay the inquest was the coroner's alone, although it was known for some time before his announcement that he was considering this.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Prime Minister why the decision to delay the inquest on the three Irish Republican Army members shot in Gibraltar was announced from No. 10 Downing street in advance of any formal announcement by the coroner in Gibraltar; and if she will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  A decision by the coroner to postpone the inquest had been widely forecast in the press. My press office understood that it had already been announced, as indeed it was later that same day. The decision to delay the inquest was the coroner's alone.

ENERGY

  CEGB (Energy Efficiency)
  Mr. Alan W. Williams
  To ask the Secretary of 'State for Energy if he will direct the Central Electricity Generating Board to undertake investment in energy efficiency programmes, so as to reduce the need for its growing programme of pressurised water reactor nuclear power stations.

  Mr. Michael Spicer
  The electricity supply industry already promotes the efficient use of energy through
  347
  schemes in the domestic sector such as Economy 7, Budget Warmth, Energy Wise, Medallion and Civic Shield awards; and in the industrial and commercial sectors through Energy Management in Lighting, PEP and BETA awards.

  Petroleum Production Licences
  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if there is a minimum agreed work obligation linked to all petroleum production licences.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  Most licences in practice include a work obligation, but there is no standard programme.

  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he varies or amends obligations entered into with companies to whom petroleum production licences have been granted exclusively.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  I refer my hon. Friend to the answer my right hon. Friend gave him on 5 May 1988 at columns 559–60, which details the circumstances in which amendments or variations are usually made.

  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if Gazette notices are required inviting applications for petroleum production licences which have been surrendered.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  Surrendered areas which it was proposed to offer for relicensing in a future licensing round would be included in an announcement of the round made by means of parliamentary written statement, press notice and Gazette notice. Where the licence has been replaced by another form of licence, there would not be a notice inviting applications for the area.

  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy on what basis his Department decides to replace surrendered licences with different types of licences.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  When considering applications for replacement of surrendered licences with different types of licences, I expect applicants to meet the requirements of the relevant regulations and to establish that it would be appropriate to award them the licence.

  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what mechanisms exist, where the holder of a petroleum production licence seeks to have it extended, for other applicants to be considered for the rights conferred by that licence.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  For certain forms of production licence, I have a discretion, set out in the relevant regulations, to extend the term. I would consider all the circumstances of the case before deciding whether to extend the term. If it was decided that the licence should not be extended, then the area in question would normally be made available in a future licensing round.

  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (1) if it is the practice of his Department to notify owners of land affected when an extension is sought for an existing petroleum production licence;

  (2) if it is the practice of his Department to notify owners of land affected when the holder of a petroleum production licence seeks to have the licence altered materially.
  348
  Mr. Peter Morrison
  No. I refer my hon. Friend to the answers given by my right hon. Friend on 5 May 1988 at column 558. A petroleum licence by itself does not confer on the licence holder any rights over the freeholder's land, and the position would not change if the licence were extended.

  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy by what the Petroleum (Production) Regulations 1976 (S.I. 1976 No. 1129) were replaced when superseded; and in what ways the regulations were varied.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  The regulations referred to by my hon. Friend were amended by SIs 1978/929 and 1980/721 and then replaced in their entirety so far as the grant of new licences is concerned by the Petroleum (Production) Regulations 1982. In respect of seaward areas, the 1982 regulations have been amended by SIs 1984/397 and 1986/1021. For landward areas, the 1982 regulations were in turn superseded insofar as the grant of new licences was concerned by the Petroleum (Production) (Landward Areas) Regulations 1984, which are still in force. Details of the new system introduced by the 1984 regulations were given in the 1984 report to Parliament by the then Secretary of State for Energy on the development of the oil and gas resources of the United Kingdom, copies of which are available in the Library of the House.

  Sir Gerard Vaughan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy how his Department notifies freehold owners of land that it is the Department's intention to grant or issue a petroleum production licence in respect of their land.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given of 5 May 1988 by my right hon. Friend at column 558. My hon. Friend wil also wish to note that information about the area which will be covered by new licences is given when my Department publishes a press release following every petroleum licensing round, showing the geographical areas over which I intend to issue the new licences. A notice is also published in the London Gazette giving the relevant co-ordinates and/or describing the extent of the areas which will be covered by the licences.

  Coal
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether he expects the United Kingdom will be self-sufficient in its coal needs in 1992.

  Mr. Michael Spicer
  Both the demand for coal and the share of that demand supplied by United Kingdom sources will depend upon the United Kingdom industry's ability to compete with other fuels and with imported coal. The Government have every confidence that the British coal industry will take the necessary measures to enable it to become fully competitive.

  Equal Opportunities
  Mr Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what action he has taken to remedy past inequalities in employment practices in his Department, in compliance with the codes of the Commission for Racial Equality and the Equal Opportunities Commission, respectively.

  Mr. Parkinson
  The good practice set out in the codes published by the Commission for Racial Equality and the
  349
  Equal Opportunities Commission underpin the employment policies that operate within my Department. For example, recruitment advertisements are now placed with selected newspapers from the ethnic minority press as well as local newspapers; opportunities are available for female staff to attend women only development courses; and flexible working arrangements encourage those with domestic responsibilities to continue in paid employment.

  Energy Pricing
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will ask the European Commission to investigate unfair competition in energy pricing in member states.

  Mr. Parkinson
  With the support of all member states of the Community, the Commission has taken an initiative to identify obstacles to a single energy market. They include energy pricing practices.

  Pit Closures
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether he will make it his policy to support economic development measures for north Nottinghamshire aimed at its recovery from the effects of pit closures.

  Mr. Michael Spicer
  The Government have established a wide range of measures aimed at providing employment opportunities in areas hit by closure. These include the enterprise initiative of the Department of Trade and Industry, the programmes of the Manpower Services Commission, the activities of British Coal Enterprise Ltd., the advisory and counselling services of the small firms service, and the encouragement of local enterprise agencies.

  Coal Mining Subsidence
  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will delay the date of publication of his Department's consultative document "Coal Mining Subsidence—Compensation".

  Mr. Michael Spicer
  The Department of Energy's consultation paper "Coal Mining Subsidence Compensation: Proposals for Legislation" was issued on Friday 29 April, as referred to in column 334 on 29 April.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether he will meet a deputation of local authority representatives from Nottinghamshire to discuss compensation for damage caused by coal mining subsidence.

  Mr. Michael Spicer
  I welcome the opportunity to learn the views of the local authorities in Nottinghamshire on coal mining subsidence compensation when they respond to the consultation document on the subject issued by my Department on 29 April.

  North Sea Oil Production Platforms
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he has given further consideration to the abandonment policy for North sea oil production platforms; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Morrison
  Part I of the Petroleum Act 1987 provides a framework for regulating abandonment and the 350
  Government have also played an active part in the development of international guidelines and standards in the International Maritime Organisation. Abandonment of offshore installations on the United Kingdom continental shelf will be considered on a case-by-case basis, taking account of all relevant factors including safety of navigation, fishing patterns, the protection of the marine environment, technical complexity and cost.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Cash Limits
  Mr. Roger King
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether any change has been agreed in the 1988–89 cash limits for the Overseas Development Administration.

  Mr. Chris Patten
  Subject to parliamentary approval of the summer supplementary estimate, the cash limit for the overseas aid vote (class II, vote 5) will be increased from £1,221,114,000 to £1,223,114,000. This increase covers the higher level of contribution to the International Monetary Fund enhanced structural adjustment facility announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 14 December 1987, at column 371. The increase will be charged to the reserve and will not therefore add to the planned total of public expenditure.

ENVIRONMENT

  Ministerial Duties
  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many meetings with United Kingdom Nirex Ltd. the Minister for Sport, the hon. Member for Lewisham, East (Mr. Moynihan) has attended in the course of his official duties in the last year; and if he will list them.

  Mr. Moynihan
  I met the chairman of Nirex on 22 October 1987.

  Pollution
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what guidelines he follows in assessing the economic availability of the best available technology in relation to point sources discharges into the North sea;

  (2) if he will list those toxic substances that are likely to accumulate in living organisms and which should be controlled by emission standards based on the best available technology.

  Mr. Moynihan
  The principal criterion currently governing the setting of discharge consents is the need to protect the aquatic environment and safeguard legitimate uses of water, normally by reference to particular quality objectives or standards for receiving waters.

  However, I announced on 18 November that the Government intend to introduce an additional requirement for industrial processes discharging significant quantities of certain dangerous substances to use the best available technology not entailing excessive cost in order to minimise inputs of those substances. Detailed proposals, including how such a requirement might be applied, and to which substances, will be included in a forthcoming consultation paper.

  Water Authorities (Finance)
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the sums of free reserves available currently to each water authority over and above the estimated costs of fulfilling the recommendations of the Select Committee on Environment as stated in its report on river and estuary pollution; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Moynihan
  In the water authorities' accounts, the amounts shown in the balance sheet as "reserves" represent retained profit which has already been deployed to finance investment and do not therefore represent funds which are free to finance investment in later years. Details of the funding of the investment of each water authority are shown in the source and application of funds statement

  Loans outstanding

  Water authority loans outstanding time series [Outturn prices]

  £ million cash

  As at 31 March

  1974

  1975

  1976

  1977

  1978

  1979

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  Loans outstanding

  Northumbrian

  89

  100

  134

  168

  202

  239

  259

  305

  353

  389

  397

  407

  424

  431

  North West

  234

  359

  399

  450

  486

  522

  566

  652

  691

  730

  811

  851

  920

  985

  Severn Trent

  370

  410

  459

  512

  501

  545

  568

  619

  675

  737

  748

  787

  840

  851

  Yorkshire

  180

  196

  235

  270

  285

  314

  347

  381

  415

  442

  469

  507

  537

  553

  Anglian

  343

  383

  447

  494

  516

  553

  572

  610

  681

  722

  792

  843

  885

  916

  Thames

  367

  383

  433

  472

  459

  443

  409

  424

  449

  432

  423

  394

  315

  242

  Southern

  146

  155

  159

  186

  196

  216

  241

  272

  284

  290

  312

  321

  328

  321

  Wessex

  105

  115

  127

  146

  151

  157

  167

  173

  180

  196

  213

  226

  250

  265

  South West

  74

  83

  98

  111

  115

  117

  120

  125

  128

  130

  133

  140

  143

  141

  England Total

  1,908

  2,184

  2,491

  2,809

  2,911

  3,106

  3,249

  3,561

  3,856

  4,068

  4,298

  4,476

  4,642

  4,705

  Water authority loans outstanding time series1 [1987 prices]

  memo: Index in use:

  102·6

  124·3

  150·6

  175·8

  191·8

  210·6

  252·2

  284·0

  313·4

  327·9

  345·1

  366·1

  381·6

  396·9

  As at 31st March

  1974

  1975

  1976

  1977

  1978

  1979

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  Northumbrian

  344

  319

  353

  379

  418

  450

  408

  426

  447

  471

  457

  441

  441

  431

  North West

  905

  1,146

  1,052

  1,016

  1,006

  984

  891

  911

  875

  884

  933

  923

  957

  985

  Severn Trent

  1,431

  1,309

  1,210

  1,156

  1,037

  1,027

  894

  865

  855

  892

  860

  853

  874

  851

  Yorkshire

  696

  626

  619

  610

  590

  592

  546

  532

  526

  535

  539

  550

  559

  553

  Anglian

  1,327

  1,223

  1,178

  1,115

  1,068

  1,042

  900

  852

  862

  874

  911

  914

  920

  916

  Thames

  1,420

  1,223

  1,141

  1,066

  950

  835

  644

  593

  569

  523

  486

  427

  328

  242

  Southern

  565

  495

  419

  420

  406

  407

  379

  380

  360

  351

  359

  348

  341

  321

  Wessex

  406

  367

  335

  330

  312

  296

  263

  242

  228

  237

  245

  245

  260

  265

  South West

  286

  265

  258

  251

  238

  221

  189

  175

  162

  157

  153

  152

  149

  141

  England total

  7,381

  6,974

  6,565

  6,342

  6,024

  5,854

  5,113

  4,977

  4,883

  4,924

  4,943

  4,853

  4,828

  4,705

  1 Repriced figures adjusted for inflation.

  Notes:

  Master time series constant prices.

  Repricing to = 396·9 = 1987prices.

  Index in use = RPI.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list for each financial year for each water authority since its inception the capital investment for each both(a) in real terms measured against the retail prices index and (b) as a cash sum; and if he will make a statement.

  Water authority capital investment time series

  (1986–87 Prices DOE services only)

  Repricing to: =114·8 = 1986–87 prices

  Repriced figures adjusted for inflation

  Memo:

  42·6

  51·5

  55·0

  58·5

  66·4

  83·4

  103·7

  104·6

  102·9

  102·5

  105·1

  111·0

  114·8

  Index in use:

  Year

  1974–75

  1975–76

  1976–77

  1977–78

  1978–79

  1979–80

  1980–81

  1981–82

  1982–83

  1983–84

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  Northumbrian

  65·5

  99·7

  123·4

  119·7

  112·5

  84·0

  65·4

  41·4

  42·1

  35·8

  29·4

  40·4

  36·7

  North West

  148·3

  129·3

  147·4

  131·9

  116·3

  115·9

  102·4

  97·1

  120·8

  147·9

  160·3

  169·3

  185·0

  Severn Trent

  196·0

  156·8

  148·9

  140·5

  132·1

  104·4

  109·2

  106·4

  155·7

  128·5

  116·6

  124·2

  150·0

  Yorkshire

  96·8

  106·1

  97·3

  95·8

  93·7

  77·7

  84·5

  81·0

  79·5

  86·6

  101·8

  96·8

  123·9

  352
  in their accounts which are laid before Parliament annually. My right hon. Friend expects to respond to the Select Committee's report shortly. This will take account of the financial implications of its recommendations.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list for each financial year for each water authority since their inception the amount owed to creditors at the end of each financial year(a) in real terms, measured against the retail price index and (b) as a cash sum; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Moynihan
  The information is shown in the tables below. The amounts of loan outstanding at the end of each accounting period is based upon water authorities' annual accounts and may also be found in the Water Authorities Association annual publication, "Waterfacts".

  Mr. Moynihan
  The information requested is shown in the tables. Capital expenditure figures are drawn from water authority annual accounts. Real terms capital investment has been calculated with reference to the public works non-road index. This is an index specifically applied to water industry capital investment and as such is accepted as a more meaningful deflator of capital expenditure than the RPI.
  353

  Memo:

  42·6

  51·5

  55·0

  58·5

  66·4

  83·4

  103·7

  104·6

  102·9

  102·5

  105·1

  111·0

  114·8

  Index in use:

  Year

  1974–75

  1975–76

  1976–77

  1977–78

  1978–79

  1979–80

  1980–81

  1981–82

  1982–83

  1983–84

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  Anglian

  185·5

  177·3

  145·5

  110·9

  103·2

  85·1

  88·7

  102·8

  100·8

  126·7

  101·6

  113·5

  128·0

  Thames

  143·7

  157·2

  156·8

  121·5

  105·8

  97·2

  87·1

  87·7

  105·6

  125·8

  111·0

  114·7

  130·6

  Southern

  66·9

  71·6

  72·2

  60·4

  62·2

  63·3

  52·2

  55·0

  55·9

  65·3

  62·1

  65·4

  67·0

  Wessex

  50·1

  52·6

  46·1

  40·2

  41·5

  34·0

  27·4

  32·5

  35·5

  44·8

  40·1

  51·8

  60·6

  South West

  47·2

  39·5

  38·0

  35·5

  28·9

  25·5

  23·3

  23·3

  28·3

  33·1

  42·8

  39·6

  39·6

  England Total (DOE Services only)

  999·9

  990·0

  975·6

  856·4

  796·2

  687·1

  640·3

  626·9

  724·2

  794·6

  768·6

  815·9

  921·4

  Note: Constant price figures for investment have been derived by using the Public Works Non Roads (PWNR) deflator.

  Water authority capital investment time series

  (Outturn prices DOE services only)

  £ million cash

  Year

  1974–75

  1975–76

  1976–77

  1977–78

  1978–79

  1979–80

  1980–81

  1981–82

  1982–83

  1983–84

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  Capital expenditure

  Northumbrian

  24·3

  44·7

  59·1

  61·0

  65·1

  61·0

  59·1

  37·7

  37·7

  32·0

  26·9

  39·1

  36·7

  North West

  55·0

  58·0

  70·6

  67·2

  67·3

  84·2

  92·5

  88·5

  108·3

  132·1

  146·7

  163·7

  185·0

  Severn Trent

  72·7

  70·3

  71·3

  71·6

  76·4

  75·8

  98·7

  97·0

  139·6

  114·8

  106·7

  120·1

  150·0

  Yorkshire

  35·9

  47·6

  46·6

  48·8

  54·2

  56·4

  76·4

  73·8

  71·3

  77·4

  93·2

  93·6

  123·9

  Anglian

  68·8

  79·5

  69·7

  56·5

  59·7

  61·8

  80·2

  93·7

  90·4

  113·2

  93·0

  109·7

  128·0

  Thames

  53·3

  70·5

  75·1

  61·9

  61·2

  70·6

  78·7

  79·9

  94·7

  112·4

  104·3

  110·9

  130·6

  Southern

  24·8

  32·1

  34·6

  30·8

  36·0

  46·0

  47·2

  50·1

  50·1

  58·3

  56·8

  63·2

  67·0

  Wessex

  18·6

  23·6

  22·1

  20·5

  24·0

  24·7

  24·8

  29·6

  31·8

  40·0

  36·7

  50·1

  60·6

  South West

  17·5

  17·7

  18·2

  18·1

  16·7

  18·5

  21·1

  21·2

  25·4

  29·6

  39·2

  38·3

  39·6

  England Total1

  370·9

  444·0

  467·3

  436·4

  460·6

  499·0

  578·7

  571·5

  649·3

  709·8

  703·5

  788·7

  921·4

  1DOE services only.

  Water Industry (Privatisation)
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what his Department estimates will be the result of privatisation on the debt burdens of the current water authorities; and what effect this will have on the Government's policy towards water authorities being self financing;

  (2) what information his Department currently holds on the likely dividends to shareholders resulting from water privatisation;

  (3) what his Department estimates will be the gross yield per annum of dividends to shareholders, assuming the whole water industry is privatised simultaneously, exempting those aspects of it which will be the responsibility of the National Rivers Authority;

  (4) what his Department estimates will be the effect on overheads and administrative costs of the water industry as a result of (a)changes in executive salaries and (b)registration and servicing of shareholders; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Moynihan
  It would be premature to speculate about the magnitude of the sums involved in the questions raised by the hon. Member.

  Rating Reform
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether the per capita redistribution proceeds of the classified business rate will be calculated only on the basis of those adults registered to pay the community charge in a local authority area; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Howard
  Our present intention is that the sums available from non-domestic rates should be distributed 354
  by reference to the best estimate of the registrable population making allowance for exempt persons and students, who will pay only 20 per cent. of the community charge. We intend to consult the local authority associations about these proposals.

  Mr. Doran
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what will be the percentage increase or decrease in rate payments which will be paid by businesses and proprietors of commercial and industrial premises as a result of the introduction of the uniform business rate, in the following constituencies(a) Amber Valley, (b) Mid-Worcestershire, (c) West Lancashire, (d) Staffordshire, Moorlands, (e) Hendon, South, (f) Darlington and (g) Fylde.

  Mr. Howard
  If a national non-domestic rate had been in operation in 1987–88 at the then average level of 224·1p, general rates in the named constituency areas would have been changed as follows:

  1987–88

  Per cent.

  Amber Valley

  -22

  Mid Worcestershire

  Redditch

  +11

  Wychavon

  +14

  West Lancashire

  -1

  Staffordshire Moorlands

  +1

  Hendon South

  +21

  Darlington

  -17

  Fylde

  -1

  Liverpool (Visit)
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the Under-Secretary of State's visit to Liverpool.
  355
  Mr. Chope
  I visited Liverpool on Monday 16 May for a meeting with the Merseyside residuary body. Discussions centred on the RB's progress towards wind up, scheduled for March 1989.

  Bathing Water Survey
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North East (Mrs. Hicks) on 5 May,Official Report, columns 571–77, on what date he will place in the Library a detailed summary of the results of the bathing water survey.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Within a few weeks.

  Barn Owls
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will provide estimates to show the change in numbers of barn owls in England and Wales over the last 20 years.

  Mr. Moynihan
  The only available figures for England and Wales are a survey in 1932 which showed a breeding population of just over 12,000 pairs and the Hawk Trust's barn owl survey, taken over the period 1982–85, which showed some 3,750 pairs.

  Sporting Events (Violence)
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received on the implications for his initiatives to reduce violence at sporting events of the refusal of Torquay United FC to relocate its match against Swansea on 28 May.

  Mr. Moynihan
  A representative of Swansea City supporters club telephoned my officials on 24 May. We have made inquiries of the Football League and the police and my concerns have been made clear to them. However, it is for the Football League and the police to decide whether there is a case for relocating this match. I have been assured that the police are satisfied that they have made appropriate arrangements to deal with potential problems. They are aware of the possible problems and have prepared a contingency plan to cope with them. The situation will, however, continue to be monitored by the police and their policing arrangements will be reviewed in the light of any further information they receive.

  Waste Disposal
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what assessment he has made of how many councils with waste disposal responsibility in England have terms of contract which will be affected by the recent court ruling in the case of Torfaen borough council v. ReChem plc; and what representations he has received about the implications of this judgment.

  Mr. Moynihan
  The judgment made on 16 September 1987 in the case Regina v. ReChem International Ltd. concerned the validity of a condition in a licence for waste disposal under part 1 of the Control of Pollution Act 1974. Under the 1974 Act, it is the responsibility of waste disposal authorities to issue such licences, and it is for each authority to satisfy itself that any conditions in the licence are valid and enforceable. Licences do not come before the
  356
  Secretary of State except on appeal. I do not, therefore, have the information to assess how many licences may be affected by the ReChem case. I have received no representations about the implications of the judgment.

  Residential Development
  Mr. Speed
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the proportion of planning appeals he has allowed for residential development for schemes of(a) 100 houses and under and (b) over 100 houses (i) nationally, (ii) in the south-east planning region and (iii) in Kent, over the most recent convenient 12-month period.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  BWB Freight Depots (Sale)
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what considerations were taken into account in deciding which bid was successful in the sale of the eight freight depots by British Waterways Board to Leggett Freightways; what conditions of sale were offered by the Leggett Freightways which enhanced the employment conditions of British Waterways Board employees over and above those provided by statute; and why the sale was spread over five accounting years.

  Mr. Moynihan
  In assessing bids, the British Waterways Board took into account all relevant considerations, including the financial basis of the bid, the nature of the firm's interest and the implications for BWB employees.

  The bid from Leggett Freightways, as well as being the most financially advantageous for the board, provided the best prospects for the long-term future of the employees concerned. Their conditions of service on transfer will be unchanged in accordance with the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981. For pensions, which are not covered by the regulations, employees will initially remain in the BWB scheme. Leggett Freightways has undertaken to introduce within six months a scheme of its own which will provide comparable benefits at comparable levels of contribution.

  The arrangements for payment of the purchase price over five years compare favourably on the basis of net present value with the terms offered in other bids.

  ID Investment Development AG
  Mr. John Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment pursuant to the answer of 20 April,Official Report, column 493, regarding the conveyance of Heveningham Hall to ID Investment Development AG, what information he has as to the identity of the main shareholders in that company.

  Mr. Moynihan
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Planning
  Mr. Redwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) how many people are employed in planning in his Department;

  (2) what is the total annual cost of the planning function at his Department;

  (3) how many people are employed in regional planning in his Department;
  357
  (4) what is the total annual cost of regional planning in his Department.

  Mr. Ridley
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  SERPLAN
  Mr. Redwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) how many people are employed at Serplan;.

  (2) what is the cost per annum of Serplan.

  Mr. Ridley
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Tenants (Milton Keynes)
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will allow a ballot of tenants in Milton Keynes corporation on the transfer of housing management functions back to the corporation.

  Mrs. Roe
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Racial Equality
  Mr. Beggs
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to enable councils in Great Britain to refuse to contract work to companies and firms which are discovered to have poor records on racial equality in the work force.

  Mr. Chope
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Radioactive Waste Management Advisory Committee
  Mr. Frank Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the current membership and affiliations of the Radioactive Waste Management Advisory Committee; and what criteria are used for making appointments to the Committee.

  Mr. Moynihan
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Cash Limits
  Mr. Baldry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has any changes to announce to his Department's cash limits or the running cost limit for 1988–89.

  Mr. Ridley
  The cash limit for Class X, Vote 5 (Department of the Environment: administration) has been reduced by £0·160 million from £123·597 million to £123·437 million. This results from the transfer of responsibility for payments to the Post Office for issuing game licences from my Department to the Home Office. The departmental running costs limit has also been reduced by £0·160 million from £155·222 million to £155·062 million.

  The cash limit for Class X, Vote 6 (rate support grants, England) has been reduced by £400 million from £10,224·200 million to £9,824·200 million. The latest estimate of block grant payable in respect of 1988–89 is £8,938 million, £533 million less than provided in the settlement and hence in the original vote estimate. However, there are indications that this underclaim will reduce later in the year and in the light of this and other information I consider a reduction of £400 million to be appropriate.
  358
  The cash limit for Class X, Vote 9 (sale of shares in water services plcs etc.) has been reduced by £60,000 from £2,500,000 to £2,440,000. This is to provide for expenditure to be incurred by the Secretary of State for Wales on advice relating to the privatisation of the Welsh water authority.

  London Docklands Development Corporation
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list in the Official Report the names of consultants appointed by the London Docklands development corporation in the last financial year, together with the nature of the contract, and indicating those cases where the auditors have found no evidence of formal competition.

  Mr. Trippier
  [pursuant to his reply, 2 November 1987, column 598.]: The LDDC let contracts to 140 consultants in the 1986–87 financial year, at a total cost of £10·9 million. The external auditors, Messrs Ernst and Whinney, have not found any cases during their audit which fail to meet the guidelines on competition. The consultants appointed during 1986–87 are identified in a list which has been placed in the Library by the type of expertise they provided.

  The LDDC also let contracts to 145 consultants in the financial year 1985–86, at a total cost of £7·9 million. The external auditors, Messrs Robson Rhodes, reported 40 cases where the full documentary evidence of the competitive process that had been carried out was not always available to those ratifying appointments. The LDDC has made it clear, however, that such evidence was always kept on file, and was available for inspection if requested. A list of these contracts has been placed in the Library.

  Housing Defects
  Mr. Amess
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if the Government have completed their consultations on the proposed new expenditure limits for grant eligible reinstatement works under the housing defects legislation; and if he will make a statement

  Mr. Waldegrave
  [pursuant to his answer, 5 May 1988, column 567]: The order made on 3 May (1988 No. 820), introducing the new grant-eligible expenditure limits for repairs under the housing defects legislation, contained certain errors. My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for the Environment and for Wales have therefore made a second order (1988 No. 923) which ensures that the correct limits come into force, as intended, on Tuesday 31 May 1988. My officials are dealing with this in their letter to local authorities, home owners' groups and repairers.

  Sporting Events
  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many sports events the Minister with responsibility for Sport, the hon. Member for Lewisham, East (Mr. Moynihan), has attended in the course of his official duties in the last year; and if he will list them.

  Mr. Moynihan
  [holding answer 10 May 1988]: Following are the principal events I have attendee. This list does not include a wide range of local and school sporting activities also seen on official duties.
  359

  Event

  1987

  17 June

  Boxing, Albert Hall

  18 June

  England v Pakistan (cricket, 2nd Test)

  1 July

  Boxing (world title fight), Albert Hall

  3 July

  Wimbledon Tennis Championships

  4 July

  Henley Royal Regatta

  5 July

  Wimbledon Tennis Championships (Men's Finals)

  10 July

  Peugeot Talbot Games (athletics), Crystal Palace

  12 July

  European Dressage Championships, Goodwood

  12 July

  London Youth Games

  17 July

  Cricket, Wakefield

  23 July

  National Schools Regatta, Solent

  25 July

  Junior International Championships (Women's Bowling), Coventry

  26 July

  Final stage of the Tour de France, Paris

  31 July

  ESCA v Presidents XI (cricket), Harrow

  1 August

  Stoke Mandeville World Wheelchair Games

  2 August

  Motorcycle Grand Prix, Donnington

  3–4 August

  Admirals Cup (sailing), Cowes

  6 August

  5th Cornhill Test (cricket), Oval

  8 August

  England v Rest of the World (football), Wembley

  27 August

  World Netball Tournament, Glasgow

  28 August

  World Rowing Championships, Copenhagen

  3–7 September

  World Athletics Championships, Rome

  9 September

  England v West Germany, Dusseldorf

  12 September

  South Coast Rowing Championships, Isle of Wight

  13 September

  2nd European Hockey Cup—Picketts Lock

  16 September

  Opening of 20th World Water Skiing Championships, Thorpe Park

  19 September

  World Board Sailing Championships, St. Austell, Cornwall

  20 September

  Chislehurst Fun Run

  Westminster Mile

  Baseball at the Oval

  26 September

  Rugby Union: Bristol v. Gloucester

  27 September

  Lewisham Lions Modern Pentathlon

  Sunday Times Fun Run—Hyde Park

  3 October

  Charlton v. Arsenal (football)

  4 October

  Opening of Charlton's Training Ground (football displays)

  4 October

  England v. Turkey (football), European Championships, Wembley

  18 October

  British Airways Masters—Badminton Tournament, Royal Albert Hall Serpentine Regatta—Hyde Park

  20 October

  World Open Squash Championships, NEC, Birmingham

  24 October

  Bruno v. Bugner Boxing, White Hart Lane

  25 October

  Brands Hatch, Motorcycle Meeting

  26 October

  WBC Boxing Tournament, Café Royal

  28 October

  WBC Boxing Conference, Cumberland Hotel

  31 October

  Tottenham v. Wimbledon

  1 November

  ILEA Fun Run, Crystal Palace

  7 November

  Final World Cup One Day Cricket—Calcutta

  16 November

  London Federation of Boys' Clubs Senior Boxing Championships Final, Grosvenor House Hotel

  23 November

  Lords & Commons Swimming Gala

  24 November

  Semi Final of Come Dancing—Blackpool

  26 November

  Metropolitan Police Five-a-side Youth Football Competition, Wembley

  12 December

  Cheltenham, Racing

  Nabisco Masters Doubles Tennis, Royal Albert Hall

  13 December

  BBC TV Sports Review 1987, Television Centre

  20 December

  Charlton v. Chelsea

  28 December

  Racing at Chepstow

  1988

  1 January

  Manchester United v Charlton Athletic

  16 January

  Luton v Derby County

  23 January

  Charlton v Liverpool

  360

  Event

  28 January

  Benson and Hedges Snooker Quarter Final, Wembley

  4 February

  Inauguration of Girobank Trampoline League, Elephant and Castle

  6 February

  England v Wales, Twickenham

  12–18 February

  Winter Olympics, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

  20 February

  Wales v Scotland, Cardiff

  26 February

  Penguin Swimathon '88, Queen Mother Sports Centre

  27 February

  Hartlepool v Crewe Alexandra

  28 February

  Multiple Sclerosis Society Cricket Match, Hampstead Cricket Club

  6 March

  Martini Challenge International Fencing Championships 1988, Seymour Leisure Centre, W1

  12 March

  England v USA, Athletics, RAF Cosford

  15 and 17 March

  Cheltenham Festival

  19 March

  International Ladies Hockey, England v Spain, Wembley

  20 March

  Ladies Hockey 1st XIV East—Ealing

  23 March

  Regional Disabled Swimming Championship, Ladywell Pool, Lewisham

  23 March

  England v Holland Football International, Wembley

  26 March

  Derby County v Arsenal

  27 March

  Mini Hockey Tournament, Crystal Palace

  29 March

  Professional Boxing, Wembley Arena

  1 April

  FC Berlin v Erfurt, East Berlin

  2 April

  Ice Show, East Berlin

  3 April

  Ladies Handball International, East Berlin

  9 April

  Grand National, Aintree

  10 April

  British Open Teams Gymnastics Centenary Championships, Bognor Regis

  12–13 April

  British National Skiing Championships, Alpe d'Huex, France and 100 gates of Slalom; Disabled Initiative

  21 April

  Wheelchair Bowls Match, Stoke Mandeville

  23 April

  Charlton Athletic v Newcastle

  24 April

  Littlewoods Cup Final, Arsenal v Luton, Wembley

  30 April

  Rugby League Silk Cut Challenge Cup Final, Halifax v Wigan, Wembley

  2 May

  Motor Racing, Silverstone

  7 May

  Badminton Three-Day Event

  14 May

  FA Cup Final, Liverpool v Wimbledon, Wembley

  15 May

  100 ends of bowls against disabled international team, Paddington

  22 May

  Cricket: Lords Taverners v Masters XI, Dulwich

  23 May

  Cricket: England v West Indies at Lords

  24 May

  Football, England v Colombia at Wembley

  Americium-241
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what information he possesses further to that included in the 1987 annual report, to April 1987, of the radiochemical inspectorate, concerning the whereabouts of a consignment of Americium-241 which disappeared en route from the United States of America to Amersham International; what investigations have been undertaken by his Department; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Moynihan
  [holding answer 23 May 1988]: A full investigation was carried out by inspectors of Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution, who interviewed employees of the agencies concerned and arranged for an extensive physical search of the agencies' premises to be carried out. Despite those efforts, the radioactive source was not located. The freight handling agencies have been instructed to notify HMIP immediately if the package is found. Steps have been taken to ensure that the carriers

  361
  concerned are fully aware of the requirements of the Storage in Transit Exemption Order 1962, and I am considering whether any amendments to that Order are required.

SCOTLAND

  Post-operative Deaths
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce funding for a confidential inquiry into post-operative deaths along the lines of the one recently carried out in England and Wales.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  This matter is currently receiving consideration.

  Wage Rates
  Mr. Beith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the average hourly wage for(a) full-time female employees, (b) part-time female employees, (c) full-time male employees, and (d) part-time male employees, in Scotland since 1985, in cash and real terms.

  Mr. Lang
  The following information has been derived from the new earnings survey, which is conducted by the 362
  Department of Employment in April each year, and covers a 1 per cent. sample of employees who are members of PAYE schemes.

  Average hourly earnings (excluding the effect of overtime) of adult employees1 in Scotland

  2Pence per hour

  Female

  Female

  Male

  Male

  full-time

  part-time

  full-time

  part-time

  Cash terms

  1985

  314·0

  257·5

  438·2

  n.a.

  1986

  343·8

  272·0

  471·6

  n.a

  1987

  364·8

  289·5

  505·3

  n. a

  Real terms: at April 1987 3prices

  1985

  337·3

  276·6

  470·7

  n.a.

  1986

  358·3

  283·5

  491·6

  n.a.

  1987

  364·8

  289·5

  505·3

  n.a.

  1Employees on adult rates, excluding those whose pay for the survey pay-period was affected by absence.

  2All figures are subject to sampling errors.

  3These estimates were made using the Retail Prices Index

  n.a. Not available.

  Bathing Water
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, pursuant to the reply on bathing water in Scotland on 5 May Official Report, column 536, on what date he now expects to publish a full report for the 1986 and 1987 seasons.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The Scottish Development Department expects to publish the report in June.

  Rating Reform
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many inquiries his Department has received about the poll tax; and how long it is taking on average to answer each inquiry.

  Stage of participation in TVEI

  Education authorities involved

  Optional/Compulsory participation by pupils

  Pilot project (small numbers of secondary schools)

  Tayside, Grampian, Highland, Western Isles, Strathclyde (Argyll and Bute, Glasgow, Ayr, Dumbarton and Lanark Divisions)

  Optional

  Preparatory Project (all secondary schools in Orkney; small numbers in other EAs)

  Central, Orkney, Shetland

  Optional in Central and Shetland; compulsory in Orkney because of small numbers involved.

  Extension project (all secondary schools)

  Lothian, Borders, Dumfries and Galloway, Fife, Strathclyde (Renfrew Division)

  Compulsory

  Ministerial Meetings
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will place in the Library copies of any minutes of all meetings which took place in 1981, 1982, and 1987, between the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State responsible for health and the Scottish Trades Union Congress.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  No.

  Pre-court Diversion Schemes
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is yet in a position to publish the findings of his Department's research into pre-court diversion schemes.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to her on 9 February 1988. The second report to which I referred has not yet been received.

  Unemployed Young People
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many people under the age of 18 years in Renfrew, West and Inverclyde are unemployed and have not been on any Government scheme.

  Mr. Lang
  The number of unemployed claimants under the age of 18 in the Renfrew, West and Inverclyde parliamentary constituency on 14 April 1988 (the latest date for which information is available) was 149. Details of
  364
  Mr. Lang
  Since May last year, when the Abolition of Domestic Rates Etc. (Scotland) Bill was enacted, my right hon. and learned Friend has received about 2,200 inquiries about the community charge, over half since the publication of the booklet "You and the Community Charge". The length of time taken to deal with each inquiry depends on its nature.

  Technical, Vocational and Educational Initiative
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent the technical, vocational and educational initiative programme has been implemented in each education authority in Scotland; and whether it is optional or compulsory for pupils in each area to participate.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The following table shows the position as it will be from autumn 1988:

  those unemployed claimants who have not benefited from a Government training or employment scheme are not collected.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Discontinued Cases
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will list the number of cases discontinued, by area, by the Crown Prosecution Service; and if he will break them down by type of offence, for the last 12 months.

  The Attorney-General
  During the 12-month period ending 31 March 1988, a total of 109,580 defendants had the cases against them wholly discontinued by the Crown Prosecution Service, either under the formal provisions of section 23 of the Prosecution of Offences Act, 1985, (under which section proceedings may be discontinued at an early stage by written notice to the magistrates court and to the defendant, without any further court hearing) or by no evidence being offered at court. The table shows the figures for each area. Records of the figures broken down by type of offence are not maintained, and the information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  During the same 12-month period, a total of 57,760 cases were referred by the police to the Crown Prosecution Service for advice prior to any charges being made. In a significant proportion of these cases, the Crown Prosecution Service advised that no proceedings should be instituted.
  365

  Cases discontinued

  Area

  April—June 1987

  July—Sept 1987

  Oct—Dec 1987

  Jan—March 1988

  Total

  Avon-Somerset

  589

  553

  503

  493

  2,138

  Bedfordshire-Hertfordshire

  682

  407

  475

  378

  1,942

  Cambridgeshire-Lincolnshire

  374

  432

  480

  497

  1,783

  Cheshire

  376

  384

  440

  554

  1,754

  Derbyshire

  746

  332

  308

  403

  1,789

  Devon-Cornwall

  765

  815

  647

  610

  2,837

  Dorset-Hampshire

  918

  933

  1,086

  1,176

  4,113

  Essex

  757

  631

  587

  933

  2,908

  Gloucestershire-Wiltshire

  475

  607

  589

  624

  2,295

  Humberside

  144

  195

  301

  379

  1,019

  Kent

  1,134

  945

  695

  1,024

  3,798

  Lancashire-Cumbria

  1,017

  1,143

  1,085

  1,135

  4,380

  Leicestershire-Northamptonshire

  925

  776

  647

  670

  3,018

  London Inner

  1,522

  1,682

  1,934

  2,070

  7,208

  London North

  974

  1,167

  1,354

  1,400

  4,895

  London South

  1,280

  1,365

  1,539

  1,565

  5,749

  Manchester

  1,399

  1,528

  1,520

  1,802

  6,249

  Merseyside

  898

  1,210

  1,165

  1,142

  4,415

  North Wales-Dyfed

  460

  562

  587

  640

  2,249

  North Yorkshire-Cleveland

  443

  547

  666

  734

  2,390

  Northumbria-Durham

  982

  1,335

  1,133

  1,209

  4,659

  Nottinghamshire

  128

  183

  200

  283

  794

  South Wales-Gwent

  1,762

  1,729

  1,711

  1,808

  7,010

  South Yorkshire

  530

  492

  769

  692

  2,483

  Staffordshire-Warwickshire

  642

  569

  716

  1,010

  2,937

  Suffolk-Norfolk

  798

  633

  525

  622

  2,578

  Sussex

  1,202

  1,071

  1,113

  1,236

  4,622

  Thames Valley

  366

  668

  722

  828

  2,584

  West Mercia

  454

  535

  492

  571

  2,052

  West Midlands

  411

  767

  576

  699

  2,453

  West Yorkshire

  2,214

  2,256

  2,569

  2,610

  9,649

  Grand total

  25,367

  26,452

  27,134

  29,797

  108,750

  Torfaen Borough Council (Court Case)
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Attorney-General on what date he received a letter from Torfaen borough council about the recent court decision in the case involving the council and ReChem plc; on what date an acknowledgement was sent; when he hopes to be able to send a substantive reply; and if he will make a statement.

  The Attorney-General
  The initial correspondence from the office of the solicitor to the borough of Torfaen was received on 26 January 1988 and was formally acknowledged on that day. The points of law raised by the ruling to which the hon. Member refers have since been considered by officials and are under consideration by me. I expect to reach my decision shortly, whereupon it will be communicated to the borough solicitor.

  "Spycatcher"
  Mr. Roger King
  To ask the Attorney-General what action he is taking against bookshops found to be selling "Spycatcher".

  The Attorney-General
  The organised sale or distribution of "Spycatcher" is at risk of being a contempt of court. In my capacity as a law enforcement officer, I shall continue to direct the sending of letters warning bookshops found to be selling the book of the risk and requiring them to withdraw the book from sale and to undertake not to resume sale of the book unless or until permitted by law to do so. This week I have directed the sending of five such letters.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  Car Park (Passes)
  Mr. Higgins
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will state the number of current passes for the House of Commons car park which have been issued to each category of person entitled to such parking passes; and whether particular places are for the use only of hon. Members.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The information requested is as follows:

  Category

  Permit holders

  Current permits

  1.

  Right hon. and hon. Members (Levels 1, 2 and 3)

  606

  2.

  Officers of the House (Level 5)

  112

  3.

  Members' Secretaries with over 15 years service (Marked bays on Level 3)

  25

  4.

  Late night staff (Levels 4 and 5)

  298

  5.

  Staff of the House with over 15 years service (Levels 4 and 5)

  44

  6.

  Palace of Westminster photographic pass holders on Fridays and non-sitting days only (Levels 4 and 5)

  474

  The top three levels of the underground car park are reserved for the use of hon. Members; however the Services Committee has long recognised the convenience to hon. Members of being able to transfer their car parking permit to any Palace of Westminster photographic pass holder acting on their behalf.

  Televising (Lighting)
  Mr. Hanley
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has for the holding of a lighting demonstration in the Chamber in connection with the proposed experiment in the televising of proceedings of the House.

  Mr. Wakeham
  Arrangements have been made for the BBC and ITN to hold a lighting demonstration in the Chamber at 10.30 am on Tuesday 14 June. All right hon. and hon. Members are invited to attend.

  Further details are given in a letter from the chief political adviser, BBC, to the Clerk of the Select Committee on the Televising of Proceedings of the House. A copy has been placed in the Library. The text of the letter is as follows:
  "This will confirm our discussions about the lighting demonstration for the televising of the Commons. We have agreed that this should take place on Tuesday, 14th June at 10.30 am.
  The broadcasters (BBC and ITN) will arrange for a demonstration of the different types of lighting which would provide adequate pictures for television companies. We will also have in the Chamber a camera, a remote control mechanism and a possible "hide" for these.
  As you will understand, it is not possible for such a demonstration to be mounted in anything other than a workmanlike way. The lighting will be mounted on scaffolding poles. Because we shall be demonstrating more than one lighting type, there will be more lights than would be needed for the final version. There will be no opportunity to make any concession to aesthetics. We can only give an indication of what options could be available. The final installation would be very different.
  I am worried that, if these limitations are not understood, it might be thought that the broadcasters were contemplating some insensitive installation. This is not so and I wanted to emphasise this to the Committee at this point.
  We will be in touch with the Serjeant-at-Arms and we will ask the PSA about the practical details for the work. The PSA will put in the scaffolding over the weekend and we will test out the lighting systems. The scaffolding will be left in on the Monday, and we shall put in the lights overnight Monday/Tuesday in preparation for the demonstration. We will then remove the lights for Tuesday's sitting. The PSA will be requested to remove the scaffolding on Tuesday night, so that by Wednesday, 15th, there should be no trace of us."

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  European Directives
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish in the Official Report a list of the proposed European directives that he has vetoed in the Council of Ministers since 1979.

  Mrs. Chalker
  The Council secretariat does not keep records of votes on a national basis. The information requested is therefore not readily available and can be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Foreign Honours and Medals
  Mr. Higgins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether British nationals are permitted to receive and wear official foreign honours awarded later than five years after the end of the last war.

  Mr. Mellor
  The Foreign and Commonwealth Orders ('B') Regulations which govern the acceptance and 368
  wearing by persons not in the service of the Crown of orders, decorations and medals conferred by Heads or Governments of foreign states and by members of the Commonwealth overseas of which the Queen is not the Head of State stipulate inter alia that
  "Permission will be not given in respect of Orders relating to services wholly rendered more than five years before the question of eligibility for permission is raised."

  Similar rules apply to persons in the service of the Crown.

  Mr. Higgins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether British nationals are permitted to receive and wear foreign commemorative medals under military regulations A, "Awards of Medals".

  Mr. Mellor
  I shall write to my right hon. Friend as soon as possible, and place a copy in the Library of the House.

  Disarmament
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is Her Majesty's Government's policy towards each of the recommendations of the United Nations Association for the forthcoming United Nations special session on disarmament, a copy of which has been forwarded to him.

  Mr. Mellor
  I assume that the recommendations referred to are those in the paper submitted by the United Nations Association to the chairman of the UNSSD III preparatory committee on 14 January. We share the UNA's belief that disarmament and security are indivisible. The United Kingdom is committed to the search for increased security at lower levels of armaments. We look to the United Nations special session for a balanced and constructive discussion of all aspects of arms control and disarmament. We support the United Nations as the leading forum for worldwide international co-operation. We seek to make the maximum use of the United Nations to promote the settlement of disputes, to preserve peace and to spread the rule of law. We have always supported the United Nation's peace-keeping efforts, and have supported the increased use of the secretary-general's "good offices".

  Militarily significant, verifiable and politically binding confidence-building measures can contribute to breaking down barriers of mistrust and to reducing the risk of miscalculation, and as such are an essential pre-requisite for meaningful arms control. However, we see no value in purely declaratory measures.

  We have warmly and publicly endorsed the central message of the Brundtland report that the way forward lies in sustainable development based on economic growth.

  We are committed to the search for balanced, equitable and verifiable measures of arms control. Without such agreements, however, the Government do not believe that a case has been made for conversion which would require any Government action at present.

  We played a full part at the conference on disarmament and development; we are committed to both disarmament and development each for its own sake. However there is no simple, automatic link between the two goals. In particular we do not believe that progress in one should depend on progress on the other. Our reservations about the final document were expressed in our closing statement at the conference.
  369
  On a United Nations verification agency I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) on 23 May.

  Under chapter VII of the United Nations charter the Security Council is empowered to take measures (for example. arms embargoes) to maintan or restore international peace and security. The imposition of such measures is, of course, subject to agreement in the Security Council.

  We believe that an arms sales register complied under the auspices of the United Nations could in principle establish a means of monitoring, in a universal and non-discriminatory manner, measures taken to restrain the accumulation of conventional arms. But to be effective such a register must be universal and not simply based on the production, import and export of arms of the western countries alone. We do not believe that the imposition of timetables on arms control negotiations is a useful of effective way of conducting them.

  The Government are fully committed to implementation of article VI of the non-proliferation treaty. We have consistently urged and worked for constructive arms control negotiations. But we firmly believe that the first step towards nuclear disarmament must be effective bilateral negotiations between the superpowers, who possess 95 per cent. of the world's nuclear weapons. We therefore strongly support the United States—USSR arms control negotiations at Geneva whose objectives are wholly consistent with the obligations assumed under article VI.

  Our policy towards a comprehensive test ban treaty was outlined in the reply of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to two questions by the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) on 30 November 1987.

  An effective verifiable global ban on chemical weapons is a United Kingdom priority, and we are working hard at the Geneva negotiations to achieve this.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Research and Development
  Mr. Blair
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (1) what was the level of his Department's support for research and development by region, for each financial year from 1979–80 to 1987–88(a) as a percentage of the total budget and (b) in cash terms;

  (2) what was the level of his Department's support for research and development for each of the counties of Cleveland, Cumbria, Durham, Northumberland, Tyne and Wear and East Sussex for each year from 1979–80 to 1987–88 in cash terms.

  Mr. Butcher
  This information is not readily available and could only be provided at disproportionate cost.

  Equal Opportunities
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what action he has taken to remedy past inequalities in employment practices in his Department, in compliance with the codes of the Commission for Racial Equality and the Equal Opportunities Commission, respectively.

  Mr. Butcher
  The DTI agreed the adoption of policies on race relations and equality of opportunity for women 370
  with its departmental trade unions in 1984. These policies take account of the codes of practice issued under the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Equal Opportunity Act 1975. Policy statements were circulated to all staff in 1984. Copies of these have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. All DTI staff have been made aware of their personal responsibility to ensure quality of opportunity. Guidance is given, in particular, to those who report on others performance; those who select for recruitment, training, promotion and allocation to duties; and to managers, about the need to guard against unfair discrimination. Some examples of action taken are:
  Appointment of an equal opportunity officer in 1984. An ethnic monitoring survey of all staff has been undertaken with a view to providing a database against which progress of various groups can be monitored.
  Staff who face changes in domestic responsibilities may be helped to remain in, or return to, employment by special leave arrangements, part-time working and so on.
  The Department provides a one-week women-only management course.
  Grievance procedures are clearly laid down.

  Carbadox and Olaquindox
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what information and at what level of disaggregation his Department holds of the volume of the compounds(a) Carbadox and (b) Olaquindox which is (i) produced and (ii) sold in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Atkins
  This information is not available.

  Regional Development Grant
  Mr. Devlin
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at what level of hourly remuneration the threshold for jobs is to be regarded as being created for the purposes of regional development grant.

  Mr. Atkins
  In determining the number of jobs to be provided by a project for the purposes of regional development grant, the Secretary of State takes account of all the circumstances of the case, including whether the published criteria of the scheme are met; whether remuneration is by commission or salary/wages, or both; and the rates of pay. There is no particular threshold in relation to the rates of pay.

  Pen Tops (Safety)
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he expects the British Standards Institute to develop a new safety standard for pen tops; at what stage is its investigation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Butcher
  The British Standards Institution has set up a committee to develop a new standard. It held its first meeting in April and a further one will take place in June at which it is hoped to finalise a draft. This will then be circulated for public comment before an expected publication date in December. The standard will be considered for approval for the purpose of the general safety requirement provisions of the Consumer Protection Act 1987.

  Airbus
  Mr. Wilkinson
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what rate of exchange between the pound
  371
  sterling and the United States dollar was assumed in deciding the launch aid provided by his Department towards the Airbus A330 and A340 projects.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  Information on the rate of exchange assumed between sterling and the United States dollar, and indeed other aspects of the discussions with the Government on British Aerospace's application for launch aid for the A330/A340 programme, is commercially confidential.

  Regional Enterprise Grant
  Mr. Page
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what arrangements are being made for expenditure provision for regional enterprise grants for innovation in Scotland and Wales and for estimated receipts from the European regional development fund; and what consequential changes to his Department's cash limits for 1988–89 will be made.

  Mr. Atkins
  Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary revised and supplementary estimates, the cash limit, for Class V, Vote 2 will be reduced by £4,460,000 from £574,715,000 to £570,255,000 to cover transfers to the Welsh Office's Class XVII, Vote 2 and the Industry Department for Scotland's Class XVI, Vote 3 of provision for expenditure on regional enterprise grants for innovation projects, and to take account of latest estimates for receipts from the European regional development fund.

  As a result, the cash limit for Class XVII Vote 2 will increase by £600,000 from £76,100,000 to £76,700,000 and the cash limit for Class XVI, Vote 3 will increase by £1,100,000 from £135,854,000 to £136,954,000.

  No net increase to public expenditure results from these changes.

  Departmental Cash Limit
  Mr. Page
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether any changes will be made to his Department's cash limit for 1988–89 for Class V, Vote 8.

  Mr. Maude
  Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary revised estimates, the cash limit for Class V, Vote 8 (expenses related to the privatisation of the British Steel Corporation) will be reduced by £1,199,000 leaving a token provision of £1,000.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  VAT
  Mr. Atkinson
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects the outcome of the negotiations with the European Commission on the value added tax threshold.

  Mr. Lilley
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-West (Sir A. Grant) at column 874 on 22 January.

  Customs and Excise
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the financial and manpower savings in Her Majesty's Customs and Excise as a result of the implementation of the Customs 88 project.
  372
  Mr. Lilley
  The Customs 88 changes were introduced throughout the European Community on 1 January 1988 with the aim of simplifying and facilitating European trade. They were not designed to achieve financial and manpower savings in customs administration and did not have that effect.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the Government's commitment to trade facilitation as an objective of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise service.

  Mr. Lilley
  The Government are fully committed to trade facilitation as an objective of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise and are satisfied that it is given due weight in the management of the Department's activities.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion as a percentage of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise financial and manpower resources is devoted to the fast clearance of international traffic, to preventive checks and to collection of dues and duties.

  Mr. Lilley
  The latest completed figures are for the year ended 31 March 1987 as published in the last report of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise. The figures are:

  Percentage cost of administration

  Percentage of manpower

  Customs duties including freight clearance and revenue collection work

  16

  14

  CAP work

  1½

  1½

  Preventive work

  18

  14

  It is not expected that the figures for 1987–88 or for the current year 1988–89 will show significant variations from this, although the proportion of preventive work will reflect the increased manpower introduced last year and planned for this year. Fast clearance is not identified separately within the allocations set out in the table.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement as to the working priorities of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise, indicating the role of trade facilitation as part of its ongoing activities.

  Mr. Lilley
  The working priorities of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise are clearly set out in the board's management plan for 1988–89, a copy of which is in the Library of the House. Trade facilitation is a major consideration in determining the Department's activities, so long as it is consistent with the maintenance of effective customs controls and the necessary protection of revenues.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has made to use the resources saved in Her Majesty's Customs and Excise by ports and airports linking into the DTI system to help to speed up the clearance of goods through a port.

  Mr. Lilley
  Resource savings stemming from the introduction of direct trader input (DTI) facilities have been utilised to improve the effectiveness of existing controls and to accommodate increases in the volume of international trade.
  373
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of savings in Her Majesty's Customs and Excise budget as a result of major international ports and airports linking into DTI systems.

  Mr. Lilley
  In 1988–89, running costs savings in Customs and Excise arising from utilisation of direct trader input systems are estimated to be £5 million.

  Overseas Investment
  Mr. John Marshall
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the breakdown of the United Kingdom's net overseas investment since 1979 between the following geographical areas(a) The United States of America, (b) Japan, (c) Canada, (d) Australasia, (e) South America, (f) south-east Asia, (g) other EEC countries, (h) other European countries and (i) the rest of the world.

  Mr. Major
  Comprehensive information on the geographical distribution of overseas assets is not available. Data on direct investment relating to the end of 1984 may be found in British Business of 22 May 1987. Estimates of direct investment flows overseas to end of 1986 were published in British Business of 11 March 1988. The latest issue of the Bank of England Quarterly Bulletin contains information on the United Kingdom monetary sector's assets overseas as at the end of 1987.

  Taxpaying unit by marginal rate

  Region

  Thousands

  As percentage of all taxpaying units

  30 per cent.

  40 per cent.

  45 per cent.

  50 per cent.

  55 per cent.

  60 per cent.

  30 per cent.

  40 per cent.

  45 per cent.

  50 per cent.

  55 per cent.

  60 per cent.

  North

  1,000

  11

  6

  5

  (2)

  (3)

  97·2

  1·1

  0·6

  0·5

  0·2

  0·3

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  1,570

  24

  13

  8

  3

  5

  96·8

  1·5

  0·8

  0·5

  0·2

  0·3

  North West

  2,070

  36

  21

  10

  4

  5

  96·5

  1·7

  1·0

  0·5

  0·2

  0·2

  East Midlands

  1,310

  16

  11

  6

  (4)

  4

  96·9

  1·2

  0·8

  0·5

  0·3

  0·3

  West Midlands

  1,700

  19

  (18)

  (11)

  6

  4

  96·8

  1·1

  1·0

  0·6

  0·2

  0·3

  East Anglia

  660

  (12)

  8

  5

  (3)

  (5)

  95·3

  1·8

  1·2

  0·7

  0·4

  0·7

  South East

  6,200

  190

  119

  75

  38

  60

  92·8

  2·8

  1·8

  1·1

  0·6

  0·9

  South West

  1,490

  31

  14

  13

  5

  (7)

  95·6

  2·0

  0·9

  0·8

  0·3

  0·4

  Wales

  800

  13

  7

  3

  (3)

  2

  96·6

  1·5

  0·8

  0·4

  0·4

  0·2

  Scotland

  1,690

  36

  18

  11

  4

  6

  95·7

  2·0

  1·0

  0·6

  0·2

  0·3

  Northern Ireland

  430

  7

  (6)

  (2)

  (1)

  (1)

  96·0

  1·6

  1·4

  0·5

  0·2

  0·2

  Hearing Aids
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to seek to exempt all hearing aids from value added tax.

  Mr. Lilley
  [holding answer 16 May 1988]: Hearing aids supplied by a person on the register of dispensers of hearing aids or the register of persons employing such dispensers are at present exempt from value added tax. However, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary recently tabled a new clause to the Finance Bill which, if approved by the House, will apply VAT at the standard rate to these supplies from 1 September 1988. This is to comply with a judgment of the European Court, published on 23 February, which ruled that the United Kingdom, in exempting from VAT certain goods supplied with medical care (including hearing aids), was in breach of its obligations under the EC sixth directive on VAT adopted in 1977. Hearing aids supplied free by the National Health Service will remain outside the scope of the tax.

  National Savings
  Mr. Rooker
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has any plans to privatise the management of national savings; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lilley
  The Government have no such plans.

  Income Tax
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many taxpayers there are in each of the income tax bands in each of the English regions, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; and in each case what proportion of the total number of income tax payers in each region they represent.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  The latest information available by region relates to 1985–86. In the table, married couples are counted as one unit, members of Her Majesty's forces and the Merchant Navy are excluded, and tax liability is measured before allowing for mortgage interest relief given at source. Estimates of the numbers with a marginal rate of 40 per cent. or higher, whilst shown to the nearest thousand, are in many cases based on small samples; where this means that the actual number may be more than about one third higher or lower than shown in the table, the numbers are shown in brackets. The corresponding percentages should also be treated with particular caution.

  Public Expenditure
  Miss Lestor
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total of public expenditure in 1987.

  Mr. Major
  [holding answer 24 May 1988]: Information on public expenditure is generally recorded on a financial year basis and the latest estimate of outturn for the public expenditure planning total for 1987–88 is £146 billion, as published in table 5·1 of the Financial Statement and Budget Report 1988–89.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish in the Official Report an analysis of the extent of charges by main public expenditure programme for the years 1979–80 to 1990–91, in a form consistent with the written answer of 30 March 1982, Official Report, columns 97–98, and with table 2.1 of Cm. 288-I.

  Mr. Major
  [holding answer 25 May 1988]: The table shows for the years 1982–83 to 1990–91 for each of the Departments defined in table 2.1 of volume I of the 1988

  375
  public expenditure White Paper the income from charges which excludes receipts from council house sales,

  Public Expenditure: Charges 1982–83 to 1990–911

  1982–83

  1983–84

  1984–85

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  outturn

  outturn

  outturn

  outturn

  outturn

  estimated outturn

  plans

  plans

  plans

  Department

  Defence

  -1,002

  -1,046

  -782

  -537

  -698

  -801

  -705

  723

  -741

  Foreign and Commonwealth Office2

  -2

  —

  —

  -1

  -1

  -1

  —

  —

  —

  Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food3

  -22

  -41

  -21

  -20

  -20

  -23

  -23

  -24

  -24

  Trade and Industry4

  -64

  -74

  -41

  -50

  -79

  -94

  -93

  -103

  -103

  Energy

  -74

  -88

  -72

  -83

  -221

  -111

  -26

  -27

  -28

  Employment

  -48

  -32

  -33

  -32

  -29

  -36

  -37

  -38

  -40

  Transport

  -171

  -192

  -214

  -241

  -239

  -261

  -338

  -336

  -345

  DOE—Housing

  -34

  -45

  -48

  -56

  -55

  -58

  -53

  -53

  -55

  DOE—Other environmental services

  -609

  -594

  -715

  -775

  -848

  -797

  -735

  -763

  -786

  Home Office and Legal departments5

  -242

  -262

  -328

  -312

  -386

  -357

  -356

  -380

  -394

  Education and Science

  -750

  -902

  -915

  -999

  -1,144

  -1,321

  -1,315

  -1,354

  -1,390

  Arts and Libraries

  -60

  -68

  -71

  -79

  -77

  -87

  -97

  -100

  -104

  DHSS—Health and personal social services6

  -695

  -749

  -793

  -863

  -948

  -968

  -1,120

  -1,120

  -1,170

  Scotland

  -293

  -328

  -320

  -359

  -378

  -409

  -416

  -423

  -431

  Wales

  -129

  -144

  -145

  -164

  -175

  -186

  -197

  -202

  -208

  Northern Ireland

  -66

  -72

  -72

  -75

  -81

  -83

  -81

  -84

  -87

  Chancellor's departments

  -31

  -35

  -31

  -26

  -31

  -31

  -30

  -30

  -30

  Other departments7

  -157

  -754

  -767

  -794

  -803

  -777

  -762

  -828

  -860

  Total of departments

  -4,449

  -5,426

  -5,368

  -5,466

  -6,213

  -6,401

  -6,384

  -6,588

  -6,796

  1 Figures in the table are consistent with Cm 288.

  2 Including Overseas Development Administration.

  3 Including Intervention Board for Agricultural Produce and Forestry Commission.

  4 Including Export Credits Guarantee Department.

  5 This group comprises the Home Office, Lord Chancellor's Department, Northern Ireland Court Service, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Serious Fraud Office and the Crown Office, Procurator Fiscal Service and the Lord Advocate's Department.

  6 Excludes direct credits which were not included under charges in Table 14.1 of Cm 288-II.

  7 Including Property Services Agency and Civil Superannuation.

  BP Shares
  Mr. Knox
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement about the partly paid BP shares purchased by the Bank of England.

  Mr. Lawson
  Under the terms of the BP share support scheme, which were announced on 29 October and which closed on 6 January, 38,576,002 partly paid BP shares were repurchased by the Bank of England. These shares could not be sold by the Bank, unless at a price in excess of 120p per share, before 30 April 1988. Now that this date has passed, I propose, subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary revised estimate, that the Treasury should purchase these shares from the issue department of the Bank, at the prevailing market price. Her Majesty's Government have no immediate plans to resell these shares though it is their intention to do so at some time in the future. A revised estimate will be presented shortly, and will provide for the costs of purchase and of paying the second instalment on the purchased shares.

THE ARTS

  Liverpool
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Minister for the Arts if he will make a statement on his recent visit to Liverpool.

  Mr. Luce
  I visited Liverpool on 24 May to attend the official opening of the Tate gallery of the north. This
  376
  privatization proceeds and other capital recipts. Figures on the same definition for the years 1979–80 to 1981–82 are not readily available.

  splendid gallery and other developments in the Albert dock area demonstrate the contribution that the arts can make to urban regeneration.

  Tate Gallery of the North
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Minister for the Arts (1) what information he has on the cost of fully staffing(a) the reading room and (b) the community education van at the Tate gallery of the north on Merseyside;

  (2) what information he has on the levels of staffing on 24 May at the Tate gallery of the north on Merseyside (a) in the gallery's reading room and (b) in the community education van;

  (3) what information he has on the levels of staffing at the Tate gallery of the north on Merseyside (a) as originally proposed and (b) on 24 May.

  Mr. Luce
  There are 48 staff at the Tate gallery, Liverpool including 19 warders. The detailed deployment of staff at the gallery is for the curator to determine under the guidance of the director and trustees of the Tate gallery.

  Libraries
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Minister for the Arts whether he will list(a) the library authorities and (b) the services which have been contracted out.

  Mr. Luce
  [holding answer 26 May 1988]: Published statistics do not contain this information and there are no

  377
  centrally held records. At present many library authorities contract out some support services such as cataloguing, jacketing and binding of books.

  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Minister for the Arts whether he will publish a list of existing library co-operatives.

  Mr. Luce
  [holding answer 26 May 1988]: No. There are many library co-operatives from the large regional library bureaux and the automation co-operatives to the small locally based schemes, and no complete and up-to-date list is readily available.

  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Minister for the Arts which public library authorities are reluctant to use their existing powers either in full or in part, to charge for services, as referred to in paragraph 2.4 of the public libraries Green Paper; and whether he will list those services(a) not charged for and (b) not provided.

  Mr. Luce
  [holding answer 26 May 1988]: No central records are kept and it is not possible to deduce from published statistics the full extent to which authorities use existing charging powers. However, advice which I have received and early indications from comments made on the Green Paper indicate that many authorities make only nominal use of these powers.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Police Manpower (Staffordshire)
  Mr. Lawrence
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to be able to respond to the request made in 1987 from the chief constable of Staffordshire for 50 additional police officers.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  My right hon. Friend informed the House on 18 May at columns 466–67 that he had approved 10 additional police posts for Staffordshire police. The police authority has been informed that the posts outstanding from its application for 50 posts will be considered when he next takes decisions on the allocations of police manpower.

  Brownies Health Club
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis as to how many police officers were involved in a raid on Brownies health club in Streatham, London, SW16 on 5–6 May; what degree of force was used during the raid; whether policemen involved wore rubber gloves; and what was the cost of the operation.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  I understand from the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis that 41 police officers and five supporting civilian staff were involved in the operation, which was largely completed during a normal police shift. The cost of overtime, the only additional cost, amounted to about £100.

  As to the use of force, the Commissioner tells me that no injuries were sustained during the operation either by his officers or by members of the public and that the only physical damage was to a lock at the entrance of the club. One of the civilian staff and four of the police officers are known to have worn protective gloves. The other officers were issued with disposable gloves for use if necessary, but no records were kept of actual use.

  Prison Population
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proportion of the prison population is of the West Indian ethnic group.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  According to the records held centrally, on 31 December 1987, about 10 per cent. of the population of prison department establishments in England and Wales were from the West Indian, Guyanese or African ethnic groups. The information is not reliable enough for a more detailed analysis.

  Boundary Proposals (Welwyn Hatfield)
  Mr. David Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has as to when the Local Government Boundary Commission for England is likely to complete its consideration of the draft scheme submitted by Welwyn Hatfield district council in September 1987 and to formulate its draft proposals.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The time of the work of the Local Government Boundary Commission for England is a matter for the commission. I understand, however, that the Commission hopes to publish its draft proposals for Welwyn Hatfield in the summer.

  Immigration
  Mr. Churchill
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimates exist within his Department of the numbers of immigrants likely to be admitted for settlement in the current and coming years; and if he will publish these estimates.

  Mr. Renton
  Projections of acceptances for settlement in the current and following year only are prepared within the Home Office, but are not published, because the uncertainties surrounding the timing of individual applications for, and grants of, settlement inevitably makes them highly speculative.

  Firearms
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the chief constable of Thames Valley as to whether the firearms certificate of the late Michael Ryan was in the possession of the Thames Valley police for the purposes of a variation to the certificate at the time of his death; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to his question on 31 March 1988 at column 688.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the chief constable of Thames Valley as to between what dates the firearms certificate of the late Michael Ryan was in the possession of the Thames Valley police for the purposes of a variation to the certificate; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  I understand from the chief constable that the dates in question in respect of the variation applications made by Michael Ryan are as follows: Between 24 March 1987 and 30 April 1987, sometime after 15 June 1987 (only the date when the certificate was called for is known) and 6 July 1987; and between 17 July and 3 August 1987.

  Alcohol (Prosecutions)
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many shopkeepers were prosecuted in 1987 in the Greater Manchester area for selling alcohol to people aged less than 18 years; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The available information, which may be incomplete, shows that in 1986 there were 20 prosecutions in Greater Manchester under section 169(1) of the Licensing Act 1964. It is not possible to identify how many of those prosecuted were shopkeepers. 1987 data are not yet available.

  Cash Limits
  Mr. Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intends to make any changes to the cash limits within his responsibility and to the Department's running cost limit for 1988–89.

  Mr. Hurd
  The cash limit on the Vote for Home Office administration, miscellaneous and community services and civil defence, England and Wales (Class XI, Vote 3) has been reduced by £2,740,000 from £412,908,000 to £410,168,000. This is because £2·9 million of expenditure expected to fall in 1988–89 was met from Supply Estimates provision in 1987–88. This reduction is partially offset by an increase of £160,000 arising from the transfer from the Department of the Environment of responsibility for the payments to the Post Office for issue of game licences. As a consequence of these changes, the Home Office running cost limit has also been reduced, by £240,000 from £808,039,000 to £807,799,000.

  Untried Persons (Custody)
  Mr. Bermingham
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many untried prisoners were held in custody on the most recent convenient date; and how many of these had been on remand in custody for more than three months, more than six months and more than 12 months, respectively.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  [holding answer 19 May 1988]: On 31 March 1988, a total of 8,390 untried prisoners were held in prison department establishments in England and Wales. A further 1,310 prisoners were held in police cells, most of whom would have been on remand. The latest information on the length of time since initial remand in custody, relates to 30 June 1987 and is given in the table.

  Estimated population1 of untried prisoners in Prison Department establishments in England and Wales on 30 June 1987: by length of time since first remand into Prison Department establishment2

  Length of time since first remand into Prison Department establishment2

  Estimated number of persons3 4

  Up to three months

  6,300

  Over three up to six months

  2,000

  Over six up to 12 months

  750

  Over 12 months

  100

  All untried prisoners

  59,140

  1 Based on records held centrally which are approximate, detailed checking of individual cases, would involve disproportionate cost.

  2 Excludes any time spent in police cells, before being received on

  380
  remand into a Prison Department establishment; includes any subsequent time which may have been spent on bail.

  3 Rounded estimates; the components do not add to the total, because they have been rounded independently.

  4 Provisional figures.

  5 Excludes 580 prisoners held in police cells, most of whom would have been on remand.

  Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis as to how many firearms have been seized by the Metropolitan police in the past five years; and how many firearms were stolen in the same area over the same time.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  [holding answer 20 May 1988]: I understand from the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis that separate information is not available on the numbers of weapons seized. The total numbers of firearms and shotguns surrendered or confiscated are published in the Commissioner's annual reports (page 140 of the issue for 1986), copies of which are in the Library. Over the five years 1982 to 1986 the total was 6,503. Over the same period the Metropolitan police recorded 941 offences of theft, burglary or handling stolen goods in which firearms or shotguns were misappropriated. The number of weapons involved will be higher since some offences involved more than one weapon.

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Lough Neagh/Lough Beg
  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he intends to designate Lough Neagh/Lough Beg as a special protection area under European Community directive 79/409 on the conservation of wild birds.

  Mr. Needham
  The Department may only declare sites to be special protection areas under European Community Directive 79/409 after they have been given protection as areas of special scientific interest under the Nature Conservation and Amenity Lands (Northern Ireland) Order 1985. Lough Beg was declared an ASSI on 20 August 1987. As survey work to enable the drawing of boundaries for the proposed Lough Neagh ASSI will not commence until the summer of 1988, it is not possible, as yet, to state when the two loughs jointly will be declared as a special protection area.

  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he will take to ensure that no deleterious effects, as a result of drainage operations, occur within the Lough Neagh/Lough Beg area designated under the convention of wetlands of international importance especially as a waterfowl habitat; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Needham
  Each proposal for new or improvement drainage works within the Lough Neagh/Lough Beg area is the subject of detailed consultation between the Departments of Agriculture and Environment for Northern Ireland. The primary objective of these consultations is the retention and protection of the important wetlands.

  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the areas of special scientific
  381
  interest so far declared within the Lough Neagh/Lough Beg Ramsar site, giving the area and dates of declaration and confirmation in each case.

  Mr. Needham
  One area of special scientific interest has so far been declared within the Lough Neagh/Lough Beg Ramsar site. The area, which is known as the Lough Beg area of special scientific interest was declared on 20 August 1987. It was confirmed with slight modifications on 11 March 1988 and the confirmed area is 1,125 hectares.

  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list all applications to the Department of Agriculture (NI) for drainage grant within, or likely to affect, areas of special scientific interest declared within the Lough Neagh-Lough Beg Ramsar site since the respective areas of special scientific interest declarations were made.

  Mr. Needham
  None.

  Drainage (SSSIs)
  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on co-ordination between the Department of Agriculture (NI) and the countryside and wildlife branch of the

  Name of ASSI

  Date notification received

  Nature of operation

  Department's response

  Black Bog

  6 May 1987

  Drainage

  Consent refused

  Garry Bog

  16 July 1987

  Cleaning drains

  Consent refused

  Black Bog

  22 July 1987

  Maintenance of existing minor drains

  Consent given

  Black Bog

  3 August 1987

  Maintenance of existing minor drains

  Consent given

  Lough Beg

  21 December 1987

  Cleaning existing water outlets

  Consent refused

  Inner Belfast Lough

  16 March 1988

  Modification of the structure of water courses and construction and maintenance of ditches

  Consent given

  Black Bog

  13 April 1988

  Clearing streams and drains

  Under consideration

  Monawilkin

  29 April 1988

  Drainage

  Under consideration

  Equal Opportunities
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what action he has taken to remedy past inequalities in employment practices in his Department, in compliance with the codes of the Commission for Racial Equality and the Equal Opportunities Commission, respectively.

  Mr. Stanley
  The Government are fully committed to providing equality of employment opportunities for all sections of the community in the Northern Ireland Civil Service. They have established an equal opportunities unit which has to date published two reports, copies of which are in the Library. The reports give details of the measures taken or to be pursued in developing the monitoring system, implementing a programme of action and carrying out related research.

  As for the home Civil Service element of the Northern Ireland Office, the Civil Service policy statements on equal opportunities have been circulated to staff, and equal opportunities policies continue to be rigorously implemented. Thirteen per cent. of staff in London come from the ethnic minority groups, and 56 per cent. are women.
  382
  Department of the Environment (NI) in relation to the consideration of applications for grant aid for drainage work which may affect areas of special scientific interest.

  Mr. Needham
  Before submitting details of proposals for grant-aid on drainage works in areas of special scientific interest to the Department of Agriculture (NI) the landowner is required to consult with and obtain the consent of the countryside and wildlife branch of the Department of the Environment (NI). The Department of Agriculture (NI) will not accept proposals for grant-aid which have not obtained the consent of the Department of the Environment (NI).

  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list, with dates, all notifications made to the Department of the Environment (NI) under article 25 of the Nature Conservation and Amenity Lands Order 1985, of proposals to carry out drainage in areas of special scientific interest, indicating the response of the Department in each case.

  Mr. Needham
  Under article 25 of the Nature Conservation and Amenity Lands (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland has received the following notifications to carry out drainage in areas of special scientific interest. In each case the notifications relate to a specified portion of the area and not to the entire site:

  Invalid Care Allowance
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons in Northern Ireland now qualify for invalid care allowance; and what was the number as at 1 April 1987, 1 April 1986 and 1 April 1985.

  Mr. Needham
  At 1 April 1988, the latest date for which information is available, 4,901 persons were in receipt of invalid care allowance. The corresponding figures for 1 April 1987, 1 April 1986 and 1 April 1985 were 2,137, 686 and 701 respectively.

  NHS (Expenditure)
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give, for each year since 1974–75 (i) total National Health Service expenditure, (ii) current expenditure on hospital and community health services, (iii) capital expenditure on hospital and community health services, (iv) expenditure on family practitioner services, (v) expenditure on centrally funded National Health Service services and (vi) expenditure on personal social services; if he will give each(a) in cash terms, (b) adjusted using the relevant pay and prices indicator and (c) adjusted using the gross domestic product deflator; and if he will place in the Library details of the methods used to make the adjustments.
  383
  Mr. Needham
  [holding answer 18 February 1988]: Factors for inflation relevant to the health and personal social services are not maintained separately for Northern Ireland. Data collated by DHSS in London and their methodology will be used but are not yet available. I hope to be able to write to the hon. Member shortly.

  Royal Ulster Constabulary (Inquiry)
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when the inquiry by the Northern Ireland Police Authority arising out of the Stalker-Sampson reports will be completed.

  Mr. Tom King
  [holding answer 25 May 1988]: It is not possible to give an exact date but I understand that the Police Authority is giving the matter urgent consideration and will reach a decision as soon as possible.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) on what date Mr. Charles Kelly submitted his initial report on the Royal Ulster Constabulary on matters relating to the Stalker-Sampson inquiry;

  (2) on what ground Mr. Charles Kelly has been asked to reconsider details of his initial report on the Royal Ulster Constabulary relating to the Stalker-Sampson report;

  (3) what disciplinary charges will be brought as a result of the initial report on the Royal Ulster Constabulary by Mr. Charles Kelly relating to the Stalker-Sampson inquiry;

  (4) what further matters Mr. Charles Kelly was asked to investigate following the completion of his initial report on the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

  Mr. Tom King
  [holding answer 25 May 1988]: Mr. Kelly has not yet submitted his report.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects the inquiry by Mr. Charles Kelly into the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Stalker-Sampson inquiry to be completed.

  Mr. Tom King
  [holding answer 25 May 1988]: Mr. Kelly is expected to complete his work within the next month.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Farm Woodland Scheme
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what he estimates will be the minimum broadleaf component under the proposed farm woodland scheme; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  We are not proposing to lay down a minimum broadleaf component under this scheme since we believe it is better to encourage a reasonable proportion of broadleaf planting by incentives and advice.

  The incentives are of two kinds. First, there will be longer annual payment periods for predominantly broadleaf woodland. Second, we have much enhanced the planting grants for both pure broadleaf planting and the broadleaf component of mixed woodland under the scheme as part of the forestry tax and grant changes announced in March.

  Set-aside Scheme
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give the total acreage of farmland which it is hoped will be taken out of production under the set-aside scheme and whether he proposes to take reserve powers to make the scheme compulsory; to be activated in the event that insufficient reductions are made by voluntary means.

  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how much land he expects to be taken out of agriculture through the voluntary set-aside scheme in each of the English regions, Wales and Scotland; and what proportion of land at present in use each figure represents.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I will not be in a position to estimate the area likely to be taken out of production until I have assessed the initial uptake of the United Kingdom scheme, details of which I shall announce as soon as our consideration of the recently decided Community regulations is completed. The relevant Community legislation provides that set-aside should be voluntary for individual farmers. The United Kingdom in common with all other EC Governments and the Commission is opposed to compulsory set-aside.

  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what sum he expects farmers to be paid per hectare of land which they take out of production under the voluntary European Community set-aside scheme.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I shall be making an announcement on this and other aspects of the United Kingdom set-aside scheme as soon as our consideration of the recently decided Community regulations is complete.

  Feed Additives
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he made any attempt to prevent the adoption of the European Community Directive which reintroduced the compound Carbadox as an animal feed additive in the United Kindom.

  Mr. Donald Thompson
  Very strong representations were made, both to the European Commission and to other member states, on grounds of safety. Although other member states were not convinced by the Government's arguments, the text of the directive finally adopted allows the serious anxieties of the Government to be given due weight.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has received from the National Farmers' Union on the use of Carbadox and Olaquindox in animal foodstuffs.

  Mr. Donald Thompson
  I have received no such representations.

  CAP (Reform)
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement about current proposals to reform the common agricultural policy.
  385
  Mr. MacGregor
  Negotiations are continuing on the Commission's proposals for farm prices and related measures in 1988–89. The Government are seeking to ensure that the approach adopted on CAP reform at the recent European Council is carried forward in the price-fixing. We favour adjustments to support arrangements which will bring supply and demand into better balance and restore intervention to its original role as a safety net rather than an alternative market outlet.

  New Zealand Butter
  Mr. Matthew Taylor
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his policy towards the import of New Zealand butter into the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Donald Thompson
  The EC Commission has not yet made a proposal on the arrangements for the import of New Zealand butter from 1 January 1989, and so I have nothing to add to the reply that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin) on 3 March at column 679.

  Upland Soils (Radioactivity)
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in the light of the effects of the Chernobyl disaster, he will initiate within his Department research into the behaviour of radioactive isotopes in upland soils.

  Mr. Donald Thompson
  My Department has already initiated a full programme of research into the behaviour of radioactive isotopes deriving from the Chernobyl accident in upland soils of the United Kingdom. An updated list of current research projects is being placed in the Library of the House.

  European Directives
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish in the Official Report a list of the proposed European directives which he has vetoed in the Council of Ministers since 1979.

  Mr. MacGregor
  The Council secretariat does not keep records of votes on a national basis. The information requested is not, therefore, readily available and can only be obtained at disproportionate cost.

  Hill Livestock Support Payments
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will consider changing his policy in order to pay the full hill livestock support payments in areas considered marginal under European Community rules as well as in hill areas.

  Mr. Gummer
  The rates of hill livestock compensatory allowances payable in both the "severely disadvantaged" and marginal "disadvantaged" areas of the United Kingdom are set taking account of the severity of the permanent natural handicap. They will be examined later this year as part of the regular autumn review of the economic conditions in the hills and uplands.

  Agricultural Land
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proportion of agricultural land in each of the European Community member states is in state or local authority ownership.

  Mr. Gummer
  In the United Kingdom an estimated 6 per cent. of agricultural land is owned by the public sector (the Crown, Government Departments, local authorities, statutory agencies and nationalised industries). I regret that comparable information for the other member states of the European Economic Community is not readily available.

  Farming Incomes
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the percentage change in farming incomes in the United Kingdom after taking inflation into account in each year since 1979.

  Mr. Donald Thompson
  The percentage changes in United Kingdom farming incomes for the period 1979 to 1987, after removing the effect of inflation, are set out in the table.

  Per cent.

  1979–80

  -23

  1980–81

  16

  1981–82

  18

  1982–83

  -23

  1983–84

  39

  1984–85

  -51

  1985–86

  27

  1986–871

  -6

  1 Forecast

  Agricultural Holdings
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the change in the average size of agricultural holdings in the United Kingdom, England, and each of the English regions since 1978, 1968, and 1958.

  Mr. Gummer
  The average sizes of agricultural holdings in terms of area of crops and grass per holding derived from the annual agricultural census for the years 1958, 1968, 1978, and 1987 are given in the table. The crops and grass area, which excludes rough grazings and woodland, is the only area measure available for all four years. Some of the apparent increase in average size is due to changes to the census threshold which have excluded an increasing number of smaller holdings from the census.

  Average area of crops and grass (hectares per holding)

  1958

  1968

  1978

  1987

  United Kingdom

  25·0

  33·2

  42·6

  47·3

  England

  28·7

  40·6

  50·7

  53·6

  The average size for each of the English regions in 1978 and 1987 is given in the table. Because of changes in definition, data for comparable regions are not available for 1958 or 1968.
  387

  Average area of crops and grass (hectares per holding)

  1978

  1987

  Region

  North

  56·6

  60·2

  Yorks & Humberside

  51·9

  53·9

  East Midlands

  61·7

  68·0

  East Anglia

  64·5

  72·5

  South East

  57·9

  58·4

  South West

  43·6

  45·9

  West Midlands

  44·4

  46·7

  North West

  28·4

  30·4

  Total England

  50·7

  53·6

DEFENCE

  Women Officers (Pregnancy Leave)
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what leave is granted to women army officers during pregnancy.

  Mr. Freeman
  All women serving in the Army are compulsorily retired on pregnancy normally during the fourth month and are entitled to terminal leave on full pay of up to a maximum of four weeks.

  Self-propelled Howitzer
  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he now intends to place an order for new 155 mm self-propelled howitzers for the Army.

  Mr. Freeman
  We hope to make an announcement about the 155 mm self-propelled howitzer competition shortly.

  Challenger Tank
  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he intends to place an order for more Challenger tanks for the Army.

  Mr. Freeman
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend) on 12 January 1988 at col.200

  Marchwood Military Port
  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the British registered merchant vessels that were employed to transport Army ordnance between Marchwood military port and overseas destinations in 1987.

  Mr. Freeman
  The RFAs Sir Lancelot, Sir Geraint, Sir Percivale, Sir Bedivere, Sir Tristram and Sir Caradoc and the Earl Granville and Tor Caledonia were employed in transporting Army ordnance between Marchwood military port and overseas destinations in 1987.

  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many foreign vessels visited the Marchwood military port in 1987.

  Mr. Freeman
  Thirteen.
  388
  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the names and number of foreign-registered vessels that were employed to transport military ordnance between Marchwood military port and(a) United Kingdom and (b) overseas destinations in 1987, showing in each case which company the ship belonged to and in which country the ship was registered.

  Mr. Freeman
  The information requested is as follows:

  (a) foreign registered vessels employed to transport military ordnance from Marchwood to United Kingdom destinations

  Saint Magnus, owned by Mamoet Shipping, West German flag.

  Condock 1, owned by Kustenshiffahrt Bauer and Hauschildr KG, West German flag.

  Hamburg, owned by DFDS, Bahamian flag.

  Mercandian Diplomat, owned by Mercandian line, Danish flag.

  Gabriella Wehr, owned by Oscar Wehr, West German flag.

  (b) foreign registered vessels employed to transport military ordnance from Marchwood to overseas destinations

  Dancia Black, owned by Shiperaft AS, Danish flag.

  Obotrita, owned by Peter Doehle Schiffahrt GMBH, West German flag.

  Panther, owned by Mortensen and Lange, Danish flag.

  Mercandian Sea, owned by Mercandian Line, Danish flag.

  Dana Cimbria, owned by DFDS, Danish flag.

  Surrey, owned by DFDS, Danish flag.

  Felcia, owned by Shiperaft AS, Danish flag.

  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the British-registered merchant vessels that were employed to transport ordnance between Marchwood military port and other United Kingdom destinations in 1987.

  Mr. Freeman
  The RFAs Sir Lancelot, Sir Geraint, Sir Percivale, Sir Bedivere, Sir Tristram, Sir Caradoc and Sir Galahad were employed to transport ordnance between Marchwood military port and other United Kingdom destinations in 1987.

  BAOR (Mercedes-Benz Trucks)
  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much has been spent by his Department in each of the last five years hiring Mercedes-Benz trucks for British Army of the Rhine work.

  Mr. Freeman
  The information requested is not available in respect of the occasional hire of trucks since central records of expenditure on vehicle hire do not distinguish between types of vehicle. A contract was placed in October 1987 involving the long-term lease of Mercedes tractors for transporting light armoured fighting vehicles in BAOR. Expenditure against this contract in the financial year 1987–88 was about £9,500.

  Army Trucks
  Mr. Sean Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he intends to place an order for new 4-tonne trucks for the British Army.

  Mr. Freeman
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement on 22 February 1988 at column 103. There has been no change in our position on the competition to choose a new 4-tonne vehicle design. The contract to provide some 2,000 of the existing 4-tonne model for the services over the next two years was placed with AWD Ltd. on 22 March.

  Equal Opportunities
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what action he has taken to remedy past inequalities in employment practices in his Department, in compliance with the codes of the Commission for Racial Equality and the Equal Opportunities Commission, respectively.

  Mr. Freeman
  The MOD is committed to providing equality of opportunity for all its employees and potential recruits. Examples of the initiatives which have been taken include positive action to encourage more applicants from the ethnic minorities; "women only" management training courses; and efforts to increase the number of part-time posts.

  Northern Ireland Charities
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list those charities in Northern Ireland that have received help and funds from the armed forces.

  Mr. Freeman
  The armed forces in Northern Ireland, as elsewhere, make an enormous contribution to both local and national charities. Their contribution takes the form of donations raised by a wide variety of voluntary efforts, as well as actual help. Much of this work is done at a local unit level. No central record is kept and the information requested could not be obtained without disproportionate effort. However, as an illustration, I am advised that the nine battalions of the UDR raised over £130,000 in 1987 for a variety of service and civilian charities, both in the United Kingdom mainland and Northern Ireland. No donations to charities in Norther Ireland are made from official MOD funds.

  Disabled Service Personnel
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how often, and under what circumstances, money is deducted from pensions of wounded and discharged service personnel to pay for cars or other forms of transport provided to help them to overcome their disabilities.

  Mr. Freeman
  The Ministry of Defence does not provide cars on invaliding. No deductions are therefore necessary.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how often and under what circumstances, letters to wounded service, or ex-service personnel are addressed "Dear Sir/Madam"; and who is responsible for the drafting of such letters.

  Mr. Freeman
  Personal letters to wounded service, or ex-service, personnel are not addressed "Dear Sir/Madam" but in the case of standard routine correspondence conducted using pre-printed stationery this form of address may be used.

  Pensions
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will review the rate of pensions and the method of awarding them to wounded members of the armed forces who are invalided out.

  Mr. Freeman
  Such pensions and the methods of award are kept under regular review.

  Injured Service Personnel
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many service personnel have been invalided out because of injuries in the last 10 years; and how often their welfare is followed up by the armed forces.

  Mr. Freeman
  The information requested is as follows:

  Number

  1977

  280

  1978

  276

  1979

  200

  1980

  168

  1981

  144

  1982

  123

  1983

  166

  1984

  231

  1985

  343

  1986

  297

  Note: Figures for 1987 are not yet available.

  In all cases of discharge caused by injury the armed forces automatically sets in train procedures laid down in the "After Care Guide" which has been designed as the result of long experience to follow up on the welfare of all ex-service personnel and the widows of those who die in service. I am sending a copy to the right hon. Member.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many complaints have been received in the last 10 years from wounded service personnel, or ex-service personnel about their treatment.

  Mr. Freeman
  I regret that the information requested is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on how many occasions in the last 10 years wounded service personnel have been ordered to wear civilian clothes on ceremonial or public occasions.

  Mr. Freeman
  The information requested is not available.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on how many occasions in the last 10 years wounded service personnel, or ex-service wounded personnel have been excluded from ceremonial occasions because of their disabilities.

  Mr. Freeman
  We are not aware of any such occasions and there is no MOD policy to exclude disabled or wounded service or ex-service personnel from such occasions. In respect of ex-service personnel every encouragement is given to them to attend especially through ex-service men's clubs and associations and the Royal British Legion.

  Tornado Aircraft
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what are the estimated annual cost of storage and maintenance for Royal Air Force Tornado aircraft currently stored at RAF St. Athan.

  Mr. Freeman
  Extra costs of some £60,000 per year are incurred for heating and lighting of the hangarage used.

  Military Helicopters
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the minimum authorised separation distance
  391
  between military helicopters and civilian vehicles travelling on public roads; and what are the legislative provisions governing the proximity of military aircraft to civilian road traffic.

  Mr. Freeman
  Low-flying military helicopters are instructed to maintain a minimum height of 50 ft from the ground or 32·8 ft (10m) minimum separation distance from any upstanding object when flying. They may however be authorised to hover at levels down to a minumum separation distance of 9·8 ft (3m). There are no legislative provisions governing the proximity of military aircraft to civilian road traffic.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the military helicopter units which were exercising in the Dalmally-Tyndrum area of Argyll on 5 May.

  Mr. Freeman
  According to available records the only military helicopter authorised to fly at low level in Scotland on 5 May was a naval Lynx operating from HMS Minerva.

  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the incident involving a military helicopter and a civilian car on the A85 road between Dalmally and Tyndrum on 5 May.

  Mr. Freeman
  Following notification of the incident by Strathclyde civil police on 7 May, a full investigation was commissioned to establish whether a military helicopter was involved and if so, what the circumstances were.

  Swimming Pool (Deal Barracks)
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will list each occasion that the swimming pool by Deal barracks has been made available to cross-Channel operators; to which operators it has been made available, in the last 12 months; and how much was charged for the pool's hire on each occasion.

  Mr. Freeman
  The P and O company is the only cross-Channel operator to have used the swimming pool belonging to the Royal Marines School of Music in the last 12 months. Details of charges were given in my reply to the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) on 26 May 1988.

EMPLOYMENT

  Mines and Quarries Act 1954
  Mr. Illsley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what consultations there have been with the National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers over the replacement of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954.

  Mr. Nicholls
  The Health and Safety Commission and Executive has consulted the National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers on the renewal of mines and quarries legislation. This forms part of the extensive consultation programme which involves all interested parties within the mining and quarrying industries. In particular a series of meetings has been held with all the coal mining unions about the most advanced 392
  of the mining legislative packages, the proposed Mines (Safety of Exit) Regulations and approved code of practice.

  Mr. Illsley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what consultations there have been with the National Union of Mineworkers on the replacement of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954.

  Mr. Nicholls
  The Health and Safety Commission and Executive has consulted the National Union of Mineworkers on the renewal of mines and quarries legislation. This forms part of the extensive consultation programme which involves all interested parties within the mining and quarrying industries. In particular a series of meetings has been held with all the coal mining unions about the most advanced of the mining legislative packages, the proposed Mines (Safety of Exit) Regulations and approved code of practice.

  Mr. Illsley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he intends to bring legislation before Parliament to replace the Mines and Quarries Act 1954.

  Mr. Nicholls
  The intention is to replace the Mines and Quarries Act 1954 with some 15 sets of regulations accompanied by codes of practice. The Health and Safety Commission is considering the first such set on safety of mines exits, and will shortly have before it proposals on quarries (explosives), with a view to submission to the Secretary of State for laying before Parliament. Further sets of regulations will follow. It is expected that the programme will be completed in the early 1990s.

  Adult Training Scheme
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what arrangements he intends to make to ensure that participants on the adult training scheme who are paid up to £250 by their employer on leaving the scheme will not be subject to tax liability or benefit loss; and what would be the effect of an employer making a payment of more than £250.

  Mr. Nicholls
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently announced that a training bonus will be payable to trainees who complete an action plan of over three months duration with an additional bonus for those who attain a vocational qualification or a credit towards one. Bonuses will be funded jointly by the Manpower Services Commission, training managers and employers until March 1991, and thereafter by contributions from employers and training managers. The maximum total payable under this scheme will be £200, and the bonus will be disregarded for the purpose of assessing entitlement to income support. As a payment relating exclusively to training undertaken it will not be liable to income tax.

  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what arrangements he intends to make to ensure that participants on the adult training scheme are not subject to any benefit loss or tax liability as a result of receiving £10 to £12 per week additional to their benefit.

  Mr. Nicholls
  Participants in employment training will receive a training premium of £10 to £12 a week over and above their previous benefit entitlement. These payments will be disregarded for benefit purposes and will not be liable to income tax.

  Job Release Scheme
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what provision is to be made for handicapped people working in sheltered workshops affected by the abolition of the job release scheme.

  Mr. Lee
  While we appreciate the particular problems of people with disabilities who are approaching retirement age it is for those organisations which provide employment in sheltered workshops to determine arrangements under which employees may retire from employment.

  Parental Leave
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, pursuant to the reply of 15 February,Official Report, column 471, if he will list those member states of the EEC which have some form of statutory provision relating to parental leave, and which do not.

  Mr. Nicholls
  My current information is that all member states have some form of statutory provision with the exception of Ireland, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, pursuant to the reply of 15 February,Official Report, column 471, what information he has on the fundamental variations in the range and scope of provisions for parental leave in those member states of the European Community with statutory provision.

  Mr. Nicholls
  I will write to the hon. Member and place a copy of my reply in the Library.

  TVEI (Orkneys)
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what conditions, in terms of number of participant pupils, have been required of Orkney islands council in order to qualify for Manpower Services Commission funding for the technical, vocational and educational initiative programme; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Cope
  The Government intend that all young people aged 14 to 18 in maintained schools and colleges should be given access to the wider and richer curriculum developed by the technical and vocational education initiative. I am pleased that Orkney education authority has indicated its wish to participate in the initiative from this autumn, and proposes that all students aged 14 will take part from the first year. I am informed that negotiations between the Training Commission (formerly the Manpower Services Commission) and the education authority are proceeding satisfactorily on this basis.

  Sex Discrimination
  Ms. Richardson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will list the representations he has

  MSC region

  Financial year 1985–86 (31 March 1986)

  Financial year 1986–87 (31 March 1987)

  Financial year 1982788 (31 March 1988)

  (a) Remploy:

  South East

  327

  329

  325

  London

  707

  687

  665

  South West

  536

  521

  516

  West Midlands

  656

  672

  646

  East Midlands and Eastern

  641

  650

  653

  394
  received in response to the consultation document "Restrictions on Employment of Young People and the Removal of Sex Discrimination in Legislation"; and if he will make them available in the Library.

  Mr. Nicholls
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Barnsley, Central (Mr. Illsley) on Friday 20 May 1988,Official Report, column 613.

  Ms. Richardson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what action he is taking to implement the proposals contained in the consultation document "Restrictions on Employment of Young People and the Removal of Sex Discrimination in Legislation"; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholls
  I announced the Government's decision to denouce ILO convention No. 45 in my reply to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick) on Thursday 26 May.

  I am still considering with my colleagues the responses we have received on other matters covered by the consultation document. The Northern Ireland Office is currently consulting publicly on the equivalent Northern Ireland legislation and the closing date for responses to its consultation document is 3 June 1988.

  Redundancy Payments (Equality)
  Ms. Richardson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what action he is taking to provide for statutory redundancy payments to be payable to both women and men up to the age of 65 years, or to normal retiring age for the job where that is below 65 years, and on a non-discriminatory basis; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholls
  On 29 October 1987 my hon. Friend the Minister of State announced his intention to increase the age limit up to which women can receive a statutory redundancy payment from 60 to 65 years as soon as legislative time was available.

  Disabled People
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will provide statistics on the number of registered disabled persons employed(a) with Remploy and (b) in local authority sheltered provision for each of the standard regions in 1985, 1986 and 1987.

  Mr. Lee
  [holding answer 17 May 1988]: Information is not available in the form requested. Information on the number of approved severely disabled workers employed in each Manpower Services Commission (MSC) region in the 1985–86, 1986–87 and 1987–88 financial years is set out in the tables.
  395

  MSC region

  Financial year 1985–86 (31 March 1986)

  Financial year 1986–87 (31 March 1987)

  Financial year 1987–88 (31 March 1988)

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  1,135

  1,125

  1,104

  North West

  1,600

  1,644

  1,647

  Northern

  944

  909

  920

  Wales

  1.463

  1,504

  1,492

  Scotland

  1,050

  1,029

  1,074

  (b) Local Authority sheltered provision:

  South East

  335

  301

  322

  London

  614

  640

  639

  South West

  972

  1,034

  1,072

  West Midlands

  1967

  565

  617

  East Midlands and Eastern

  —

  672

  758

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  520

  556

  567

  North West

  617

  666

  699

  Northern

  235

  228

  235

  Wales

  524

  504

  532

  Scotland

  707

  754

  833

  1 The figure of 967 occupied places relates to the whole of the former Midlands Region.

  Scotch Derrick Cranes
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether all scotch derrick cranes in use have been checked following the fatal accidents at Nantergantick quarry by people who are competent and who either can check, or have caused a check on cast iron components; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholls
  [holding answer 26 May 1988]: Following the accident the mines and quarries inspectorate carried out a comprehensive review of all scotch derrick cranes in use at quarries. The review included advice to owners on proper procedures to establish whether or not critical components were made of cast iron.

  Mines and Quarries Inspectorate
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if individual inspectors in the mines and quarries inspectorate have the necessary legal knowledge and skills to enable them to institute and conduct prosecutions under the Health and Safety at Work Act etc. 1974.

  Mr. Nicholls
  [holding answer 26 May 1988]: Inspectors of the mines and quarries inspectorate receive the appropriate training to institute, but not conduct, prosecutions under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. The prosecutions are conducted by the solicitors branch of the Health and Safety Executive.

  Underpaid Employees
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what were the main reasons for not prosecuting the 4,443 establishments which underpaid employees in 1987.

  Mr. Nicholls
  Four of the establishments were prosecuted for underpaying workers and four for failing to produce adequate records. Prosecution action was not considered appropriate in the other cases mainly because it is not the practice of the wages inspectorate to prosecute employers unless the offence is deliberate or repeated and the evidence considered adequate. The willingness of workers to give evidence in court if required is also a factor in deciding whether or not prosecution action is 396
  appropriate. In most cases underpayment is immediately put right and the inspectorate will take this into account when considering whether prosecution will serve any useful purpose.

  Women's Pension Schemes
  Mr. Beith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) what percentage of female part-time waged workers is included in pension schemes in(a) nationalised industries and (b) local government;

  (2) what percentage of female full-time waged workers is included in pension schemes in (a) nationalised industries and (b) local government.

  Mr. Portillo
  I have been asked to reply.

  According to estimates produced from data collected for the 1987 survey of occupational pension schemes by the Government Actuary (as yet unpublished) the percentage of female part-time and full-time employees of nationalised industries and local government who were members of occupational pension schemes at the time are as follows:

  Part-time

  Full-time

  Nationalised industries

  20

  over 95

  Local government

  10

  over 95

  Note:

  These figures take no account of changes since 1987 resulting from the Government's recent pensions reforms.

WALES

  Electorate
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list in descending order, by electorate, the number of voters in each Welsh constituency in 1988–89.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Parliamentary constituencies in Wales, listed in descending order of the total number of electors on the 1988 electoral register, are shown in the following table:

  Parliamentary Constituency

  Total electors 1988

  WALES

  2,180,269

  Pembroke

  71,637

  397

  Parliamentary Constituency

  Total electors 1988

  Vale of Glamorgan

  67,681

  Clwyd North West

  67,384

  Carmarthen

  66,879

  Delyn

  65,022

  Caerphilly

  64,434

  Ceredigion and Pembroke North

  64,372

  Llanelli

  64,252

  Wrexham

  63,664

  Pontypridd

  61,011

  Rhondda

  60,835

  Torfaen

  60,780

  Swansea West

  60,767

  Gower

  59,977

  Monmouth

  59,690

  Clwyd South West

  59,556

  Alyn and Deeside

  59,494

  Cardiff South and Penarth

  59,165

  Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney

  58,495

  Bridgend

  58,355

  Cardiff West

  57,689

  Swansea East

  57,436

  Blaenau Gwent

  56,265

  Newport West

  55,933

  Cardiff North

  55,616

  Neath

  55,405

  Cardiff Central

  53,827

  Conwy

  53,468

  Ynys Mon

  53,201

  Newport East

  53,071

  Aberavon

  52,446

  Ogmore

  51,620

  Islwyn

  50,967

  Brecon and Radnor

  50,575

  Cynon Valley

  50,125

  Caernarfon

  46,587

  Montgomery

  40,472

  Meirionnydd Nant Conwy

  32,116

  Source: Office of Population Censuses and Surveys.

  Equal Opportunities
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action he has taken to remedy past inequalities in employment practices in his Department, in compliance with the codes of the Commission for Racial Equality and the Equal Opportunities Commission, respectively.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  My Department continues to be an equal opportunity employer. With regard to the code of the Commission for Racial Equality, it is carrying out ethnic monitoring and has approached organisations representing ethnic minority groups and schools with high ethnic populations in the Cardiff area in order to offer career talks and work experience placements and to inform them of local recruitment exercises so as to encourage applications from ethnic minority communities. As for the Equal Opportunities Commission's code, the Welsh Office has an annual review of progress in the field of equal opportunity; a flexi-time agreement; a job-sharing agreement; part-time working; advice to staff on sexual harassment; and detailed guidance about the options and benefits that are available to officers coping with changes in domestic commitments.

  Farmers (Statistics)
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many farmers there are in each county in Wales at the latest convenient date.
  398
  Mr. Peter Walker
  The information requested is as follows:

  Farmers, by county: June 1987

  Whole-time

  Part-time

  Total

  Clwyd

  3,094

  1,209

  4,303

  Dyfed

  8,847

  2,982

  11,829

  Gwent

  1,615

  794

  2,409

  Gwynedd

  3,433

  1,376

  4,809

  Mid Glamorgan

  687

  381

  1,068

  Powys

  4,829

  1,346

  6,175

  South Glamorgan

  409

  160

  569

  West Glamorgan

  683

  349

  981

  Wales

  23,546

  8,597

  32,143

  Note: The figures are for Main Holdings only, and include partners and directors where they too are engaged in farm work.

  Farm Workers
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many farm workers are employed in Wales at the latest convenient date.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  The information requested is as follows:

  Farm workers at June 1987

  Number

  Salaried managers

  289

  Family workers:

  Male:

  Wholetime

  2,838

  Part-time

  1,487

  Female:

  Wholetime

  545

  Part-time

  646

  Hired workers:

  Male:

  Wholetime

  3,229

  Part-time

  1,410

  Female:

  Wholetime

  253

  Part-time

  428

  Seasonal or casual workers:

  Male

  7,166

  Female

  1,674

  Total farm workers

  19,965

  Note: These figures include an estimate of the number employed in minor holdings.

  Language Assistants
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many language assistants went to which countries under the auspices of the exchange of language assistants scheme in the last year for which figures are available; how many came from which countries in exchange; and if any teach through the medium of Welsh.

  Mr. Wyn Roberts
  The number of such appointments arranged by the Central Bureau for Educational Visits and Exchanges for 1987–88 is set out in the following table. Language assistants are expected to teach through the medium of their own language, not those of the host countries.
  399

  Country

  Language assistants abroad from Wales

  Foreign language assistants in Wales

  Austria

  13

  6

  Belgium

  —

  1

  Canada

  1

  —

  Columbia

  2

  —

  Federal Republic of Germany

  29

  27

  France

  62

  161

  German Democratic Republic

  2

  —

  Italy

  6

  2

  Spain

  3

  7

  Switzerland

  4

  —

  122

  104

  1Including nationals of other francophone countries studying in France.

  AIDS
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report for each health authority in Wales the number of persons suffering from AIDS; and if he will disaggregate the statistics by age and sex.

  Mr. Grist
  At the end of April 1988, 21 cases of AIDS in Wales had been reported to the communicable disease surveillance centre, of whom 15 had died.

  Information on the number of AIDS cases is disaggregated by sex on a United Kingdom basis only. For reasons of medical confidentiality, the figures for Wales are not disaggregated by health authority, age of sex.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his Department's latest estimate of the number of people in Wales that are currently HIV positive.

  Mr. Grist
  At 31 March 1988, the number of known HIV antibody positive people in Wales was 102.

  There are a number of unknown factors here and at present it is not possible to make an estimate of the number of people who are HIV antibody positive. However, a group of experts under the chairmanship of Sir David Cox is now considering forecasts for the numbers of people infected with HIV and with AIDS over a two-to-five-year period.

  Authority/Hospital

  Approved for closure

  DHA proposed for closure

  Included in DHA Strategic Plan as possible candidate for closure

  Number of patients in hospital at 5 April (Latest figures available)

  Clwyd

  North Wales, Denbigh

  —

  —

  Major run-down proposed.

  504 (includes 56 patients at

  Poole Park

  —

  —

  1988–89

  31 December 1986 at Poole Park

  East Dyfed

  St. David's Carmarthen

  —

  —

  Major run-down proposed.

  366

  Gwent

  Pen-y-Fal

  —

  —

  1991–92

  423

  St. Cadics

  —

  —

  Major run-down proposed.

  273

  Mid Glamorgan

  Parc

  —

  —

  1992–93

  494

  Glanrhyd/Penyfai

  —

  —

  —

  329

  Powys

  Mid Wales, Talgarth

  —

  —

  —

  263

  South Glamorgan

  Whitchurch

  —

  —

  —

  424

  400
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many babies born in Wales were HIV positive at birth.

  Mr. Grist
  To the end of March 1988, the communicable disease surveillance centre had received no reports of HIV positive babies born in Wales.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many babies have been born in Wales to mothers who are HIV positive.

  Mr. Grist
  This information is not known since pregnant women and babies are not routinely tested for HIV antibodies.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many terminations of pregnancy in Wales have been carried out because the mother is HIV positive.

  Mr. Grist
  None of the notifications of termination of pregnancy carried out in Wales for the period 1 January 1983 to 30 September 1987 included a mention of either HIV positive condition or AIDS (ICD code 279·1). The information in respect of 1987 is provisional.

  Carbadox and Olaquindox
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from(a) the National Farmers Union, (b) the Farmers Union of Wales and (c) any other organisation on the use of Carbadox and Olaquindox in animal foodstuffs in Wales.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  None.

  Psychiatric Hospitals
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report a list of those psychiatric hospitals caring for long-stay patients in each district, showing (a) those which have been approved for closure, (b) those which have been proposed for closure by their district health authority, (c) those which have been listed in district strategic plans as possible candidates for closure and (d) the number of patients in each hospital.

  Mr. Grist
  The details required are as follows:
  401

  Authority/Hospital

  Approved for closure

  DHA proposed for closure

  Included in DHA Strategic Plan as possible candidate for closure

  Number of patients in hospital at 5 April (Latest figures available)

  Royal Hamadryad

  —

  —

  All beds psycho-geriatric. Closure proposed for 1988–89 with all beds being transferred to St. David's Hospital.

  49

  West Glamorgan

  Cefn Coed

  —

  —

  —

  348

  Garngoch

  —

  —

  —

  39

  Wage Rates
  Mr. Beith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the average hourly wage for(a) full-time female employes, (b) part-time female employees, (c) full-time male employees, and (d) part-time male employees in Wales since 1985, in cash and real terms.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Available data are as follows:

  Average hourly earnings excluding effect of overtime1

  (Pence)

  April 1985

  April 1986

  April 1987

  (a) Current price terms

  Males

  Full-time employees

  421·8

  448·5

  474·0

  Part-time employees

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Females

  Full-time employees

  309·0

  334·8

  358·1

  Part-time employees

  243·6

  263·7

  282·9

  (b) At constant (April 1987) prices2

  Males

  Full-time employees

  453·1

  467·5

  474·0

  Part-time employees

  n/a

  n/a

  n/a

  Females

  Full-time employees

  331·9

  349·0

  358·1

  Part-time employees

  261·7

  274·9

  282·9

  Source: New Earnings Survey.

  1 Based on the average hourly earnings of adults on adult rates excluding the effects of overtime whose pay for the survey pay-period was not affected by absence.

  2 These figures are ercalculated using the Retail Price Index and April 1987 as the base.

  "Western Mail (Article)"
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales who authorised the provision of quotations from an internal Welsh Office document to Roger Dobson of the Western Mail for use in his article of 17 March entitled "£900 million plan to breathe new life into South Wales".

  Mr. Peter Walker
  No such information was provided or authorised by the Welsh Office.

  Valleys Initiative
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales on what date he first announced his intention to establish a valleys initiative.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  In the autumn of last year I indicated that I was considering the problems and opportunities present in the valleys and the options for action to deal with them, I have always made clear that I would have wide-ranging consultations before coming to conclusions on the programme for the coming years.

  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list with dates those organisations and
  402
  interests which he has consulted about his valleys initiative; which remain to be consulted; and when he intends to consult them.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  I have held discussion with a large number of organisations in recent months, and I have had specific meetings with representatives of the following organisations on the dates shown:

  Organisation

  Tuesday 19 April

  Manpower Services Commission.

  Wales TUC.

  Friday 22 April

  Wales Tourist Board.

  Wednesday 27 April

  Confederation of British Industry (Wales).

  Thursday 28 April

  Gwent County Council.

  Lliw Valley Borough Council, Neath Borough Council, Port Talbot Borough Council, Swansea City Council, Dinefwr Borough Council, Llanelli Borough Council, Brecknock Borough Council.

  Friday 29 April

  Welsh Water Authority.

  Tuesday 3 May

  Taff Ely Borough Council, Cynon Valley Borough Council, Merthyr Tydfil Borough Council, Ogwr Borough Council, Rhymney Valley District Council, Rhondda Borough Council.

  Thursday 5 May

  Secondary Housing Association for Wales, Housing Corporation, Welsh Housing Association's Council.

  Blaenau Gwent Borough Council, Islwyn Borough Council, Torfaen Borough Council.

  West Glamorgan County Council.

  Neath Development Partnership, Port Talbot Co-operative Development Agency, Swansea Self Start, West Glamorgan Enterprise Trust.

  Friday 6 May

  Mid Glamorgan County Council.

  Dyfed County Council.

  Thursday 12 May

  Welsh Development Agency.

  British Coal (Enterprise), British Steel Corporation (Industry), Business in the Community.

  Friday 13 May

  Business in Taff Ely, Economic Development Partnership of the Rhymney Valley Ltd, Ogwr Partnership Trust, Merthyr—Aberdare Development Enterprise, Rhondda Enterprise Ltd.

  Mid Glamorgan District Health Authority, West Glamorgan District Health Authority, East Dyfed District Health Authority, Gwent District Health Authority, Gwent District Health Authority.

  Powys County Council.

  403

  Organisation

  Monday 16 May

  Land Authority for Wales.

  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what technical arrangements he is making to fulfil his intention, declared in reply to a supplementary question from the right hon. Member for Swansea, West,Official Report, 23 May, column 6, to make simultaneous announcements of his valleys initiative in the Chamber of the House and in the valleys.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  I shall ensure that on the day of the announcement statements are made both in the House and in the valleys.

  Torfaen (RSG)
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will allow an expenditure disregard in the calculation of

  £ million (commitments)

  Sources

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  Total

  European Regional Development Fund—Quota2

  47·3

  65·6

  56·9

  59·5

  53·8

  283·1

  European Regional Development Fund—Non Quota

  —

  7·3

  —

  1·0

  —

  8·3

  European Investment Bank

  23·1

  13·2

  47·1

  28·9

  1—

  112·3

  European Coal and Steel Community

  44·6

  19·8

  36·2

  14·6

  1—

  115·2

  European Social Fund

  24·5

  1·5

  3·3

  4·9

  1—

  34·2

  European Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee Fund3

  57·4

  60·4

  53·2

  67·3

  1—

  238·3

  791·4

  1—Figures not yet available.

  2 Gross commitments

  3 EAGGF figures are based on identifiable receipts

  Construction Industry
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many persons are employed in the construction industry in each of the Welsh counties; and what are the corresponding figures for each year since 1979.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Data for the Welsh counties are available for 1978, 1981 and 1984 only and are as follows:

  Construction—Employees in employment

  Thousands

  June 19781

  September 19812

  September 19842

  Clwyd

  8·0

  5·4

  5·7

  Dyfed

  7·0

  6·1

  4·9

  Gwent

  8·7

  8·7

  7·8

  Gwynedd

  6·9

  4·8

  3·4

  Mid Glamorgan

  10·7

  8·0

  8·6

  Powys

  2·2

  1·3

  1·6

  South Glamorgan

  10·9

  10·1

  8·3

  West Glamorgan

  11·0

  8·2

  6·5

  Source: Censuses of Employment.

  1Jobcentre based information; 1968 Standard Industrial Classification (SIC), Order XX; this differs from the 1980 SIC, for instance, in including open-cast coal mining operations.

  2'Ward-based information; 1980 SIC Division 5.

  Note: Jobcentre and ward-based aggregates are not strictly comparable. The former are based on an amalgamation of Jobcentre areas which may not be coterminous with the county boundary and, unlike the ward-based aggregate, they include no allowance fo non response and duplication in census returns.
  404
  rate support grant for Torfaen borough council, in respect of that authority's expenditure for the monitoring of ReChem International Plc.

  Mr. Grist
  No. Expenditure disregards are relevant only in circumstances in which expenditure guidance has been issued in respect of a rate support grant settlement which includes targets and penalties. The settlements since 1986–87 do not include such arrangements.

  EC Payments
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish a table showing, for each of the past five years, the total receipts by way of grants and other payments which have come to Wales from the European Economic Community budget.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Details of identifiable EC grants and loans for the past five years are as follows:

  These figures do not include the self-employed, who constitute 20 per cent. of those employed in construction according to the 1981 census of population.

  Sheepmeat
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures are being taken by his Department to ensure that Wales retains its present share of the sheepmeat sector in Europe on the implementation of the review of the common agriculture policy sheepmeat regime.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  During the review of the sheepmeat regime we will continue to resist changes which would discriminate against United Kingdom and Welsh interests and will seek to secure arrangements which would allow free but fair competition.

  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he has taken to inform the European Commission of the views of the Welsh farming community concerning the imposition of a separate budgetary stabiliser for sheepmeat produced in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Our opposition to a separate sheepmeat stabiliser for Great Britain was made clear to the Commission during the negotiations which produced the agreement at the European Council on 11–12 February 1988. In accepting the final terms of the agreement as a whole, a judgment had to be made on the overall benefits which could be achieved.

  Green Pound
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has made to the European Commission concerning the views of the Welsh farming community on the devaluation of the green pound; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food—with whom I work in close collaboration on all matters of importance to agriculture—has made it clear to the Agriculture Council that some devaluation is justified in the current price fixing. He is therefore pressing the Commission to make satisfactory proposals.

  Agricultural Research
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people in Wales are employed in agricultural research in(a) the private sector and (b) the public sector.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Comprehensive information on the number of people employed in Wales in agricultural research in the private sector and in the universities is not kept centrally.

  At 1 May 1988, the Agricultural and Food Research Council's Welsh plant breeding station employed 224 people. Approximately 127 ADAS officers and support staff in Wales are also involved in agricultural research and development work as part of their duties.

  Silage Pollution
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures his Department is taking to increase

  Year

  1979

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  11987

  Index of farming incomes (deflated by the RPI (1979=100))

  100

  92

  115

  139

  68

  94

  46

  69

  81

  Percentage change

  —

  -8

  25

  21

  -51

  38

  -51

  50

  17

  1 Figures for 1987 are subject to revision.

  Chernobyl Disaster (Compensation)
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning farmers in Wales affected by the Chernobyl disaster who fell ouside the compensation system; and what measures are being undertaken to compensate them.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  On 11 January 1988, the National Farmers Union in Wales presented to my Department 56 cases it considered to have been inadequately compensated by the direct losses scheme under the Chernobyl compensation arrangements. The evidence submitted by the union did not reveal any special problems or anomalies not already covered by the existing compensation arrangements. The union also confirmed that no new principles of compensation had been identified. I wrote to the chairman of the NFU in Wales on 23 March 1988 rejecting the 56 cases. I have no plans to extend the existing compensation arrangements, which I firmly believe are a fair and balanced response to producers' needs.
  406
  the awareness of farmers of the dangers of silage pollution; and what assistance his Department makes available to the industry to help the prevention of such pollution.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  My Department, with the help of ADAS, is continually bringing the dangers of pollution to the attention of farmers during individual farm visits, through articles in ADAS publications, and by exhibits at various demonstrations.

  Farm capital grants under the agriculture improvement scheme are available for the handling, storage and treatment of agricultural effluents and waste.

  Ewe Premium
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the total loss to Welsh sheep producers of the decision of the EEC sheepnneat management committee to set the 1987 ewe premium at £6·24 per ewe rather than the proposed £6·44.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Some 4·7 million ewe are expected to qualify for 1987 sheep annual premium and the loss to Welsh producers as a consequence of the rate of premium being 20p less than originally anticipated will therefore be about £940,000.

  Farming Income
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of St ate for Wales what was the percentage change in the value of farming incomes in Wales after taking inflation into account in each year since 1979.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  After taking account of inflation, as measured by the retail price index, the percentage change in the value of farming incomes in each year since 1979 is as follows:—

  Rating Reform
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the affects of the proposed community charge on farming families in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Grist
  The few representations I have received relate to ability to pay the community charge and the effect of a change in the use of buildings and land from agriculture which may make them subject to business rates. Farmers and other adults in their families, unless they are exempt, will like other adults be liable for the community charge and may be eligible for community charge benefits. If agricultural buildings and land are used for any other non-domestic purpose they will become liable for business rates under the new system, as they would under the present one. As with all non-domestic hereditaments, there will be transitional arrangements for occupiers who would otherwise face large rate increases.

  Agricultural Holdings
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the change in the average size of agricultural holdings in Wales since 1978, 1968, and 1958.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  The average area of main holdings in Wales for the years requested is as follows:

  Hectares

  Average area per holding

  1958

  29·3

  1968

  38·1

  1978

  47·3

  1987

  50·0

  Dairy Processing Industry
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are employed in the dairy processing industry in Wales; and what are the corresponding figures for 1978, 1968, and 1958.

  Mr. Peter Walker
  Available information is as follows:

  Employees in employment (£ thousands)

  (SIC 1968) Minimum List Heading 215

  (SIC 1980) Activities 4130 and 4213

  1978

  1981

  1981

  1984

  Preparation of milk and milk products including ice-cream1

  3·7

  3·3

  3·3

  4·0

  Source: Censuses of Employment.

  1 Under Standard Industrial Classification 1968, totals of employees in employment within the ice-cream industry were included in preparation of milk and milk products.

  Due to inconsistencies in the industrial classification, comparable data for 1958 and 1968 are not available.

  Mortality Rates
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the mortality rate in Wales based on social classes 1 to 5 for the last 10 years for which figures are available.

  Mr. Grist
  Information in the form requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Nurses (Pay)
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if his Department will provide the finance to health authorities to cover the recent pay increase for nurses and for new nurses recruited to meet shortages on establishment.

  Mr. Grist
  The estimated additional cost of the review bodies' recommendations, which the Government have agreed to fund in full, relates to staff in post. It is a matter for local determination whether, within these and other discretionary resources available to health authorities, the numbers and grading of staff in post should be changed.

  Engagements
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list his official engagements since 1 May.
  408
  Mr. Peter Walker
  In addition to Cabinet, Cabinet Committee and other ministerial meetings I have, amongst others, met: the Italian ambassador, the Japanese ambassador and the governor of the Prefecture of Oita, and also met representatives of the following organisations:

  Taff Ely Borough Council

  Cynon Valley Borough Council

  Merthyr Tydfil Borough Council

  Ogwr Borough Council

  Rhymney Valley District Council

  Rhondda Borough Council

  Blaenau Gwent Borough Council

  Islwyn Borough Council

  Torfaen Borough Council

  Mid Glamorgan County Council

  Dyfed County Council

  Powys County Council

  Neath Development Partnership

  Port Talbot Co-operative Development Agency

  Swansea Self Start

  West Glamorgan Enterprise Trust

  Business in Taff Ely

  Economic Development

  Partnership of the Rhymney Valley Ltd.

  Ogwr Partnership Trust Ltd.

  Merthyr-Aberdare Development Enterprise

  Rhondda Enterprise Ltd.

  Tate and Lyle plc

  Chartered Trust

  Rank Hovis McDougall

  WINvest

  MAFF Regional Panel

  West Glamorgan County Council

  Welsh Housing Association's Council

  Secondary Housing Association for Wales

  The Housing Corporation

  British Coal (Enterprise) Ltd.

  British Steel Corporation (Industry)

  Business in the Community

  Mid Glamorgan District Health Authority

  Gwent District Health Authority

  West Glamorgan District Health Authority

  East Dyfed District Health Authority

  Land Authority for Wales

  St. David's College, Lampeter

  Food From Britain

  The Design Council

  Royal College of Pathologists

  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation

  British Tourist Authority Board

  Welsh Development Agency

  Peat McLintoch.

  I have addressed the:

  Farmers' Union of Wales

  The Institution of Gas Engineers

  Business and Education Initiative Conference

  National Association of Goldsmiths

  launched:

  Taste of Wales Ltd.

  The Draft Mental Illness Strategy

  The Welsh products Exhibition

  and visited:

  Llancaiach Fawr Elizabethan Manor

  Pyrock Manufacturing Ltd.

  Hitachi Consumer Products (UK) Ltd.

  JR Freeman and Son Ltd

  Otford Specialised Mouldings

  Cardiff Business School

  Coopers and Lybrand

  Altogether, quite a busy month.

  National Rivers Authority
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list those groups or organisations which
  409
  responded to the Government's consultation paper, proposing a national rivers authority, suggesting a separate authority for Wales.

  Mr. Grist
  The information requested is as follows:

  Council for Wales of the National Farmers' Union;

  Dee and Clwyd Local Consumer Advisory Committee;

  Farmers Union of Wales;

  Gwynedd Local Consumer Advisory Committee;

  Usk Local Land Drainage Committee;

  Welsh Consumer Council;

  Welsh Office of the Association of District Councils;

  Welsh Salmon and Trout Angling Association.

  One individual who responded also suggested a separate authority for Wales.

  Housing
  Mr. Roy Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many houses in Wales, excluding the area covered in the valleys initiative, were built before 1919.

  Mr. Grist
  [holding answer 20 May 1988]: In 1986 there were 324,000 dwellings built before 1919 in Wales, excluding the area covered by the valleys initiative.

SOCIAL SERVICES

  Medical Accidents (Awards)
  Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many awards in excess of £100,000 for medical accidents caused through negligence were notified to his Department in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987; and if he will list the awards together with the health authority involved.

  Mrs. Currie
  The Department does not keep detailed statistics on such cases. However, health authorities are expected to keep the Department informed during negotiations for settlement or during the course of litigation. The Department's approval is required to write off (in health authorities' accounts) compensation payments in excess of £100,000 made under legal obligation although it may be several years between an initial notification and actual write-off. The following awards/settlements in excess of £100,000 for medical accidents caused through negligence were actually notified to the Department for write off purposes by health authorities in each of the financial years 1982–83 to 1987–88:

  Year and Health Authority

  Amount of award/ settlement (£)

  1982–83

  —

  —

  1983–84

  Croydon

  250,000

  Swindon

  534,000

  1984–85

  Hounslow and Spelthorne

  220,760

  Islington

  235,000

  1985–86

  Bassetlaw

  385,000

  Grimsby

  270,000

  Solihull

  250,000

  Swindon

  275,000

  1986–87

  Bath

  175,000

  Cambridge

  151,222

  Central Birmingham

  175,000

  Central Manchester

  207,000

  410

  Year and Health Authority

  Amount of award/settlement (£)

  East Berkshire

  550,000

  North Lincolnshire

  130,000

  Nottingham

  115,000

  Nottingham

  375,000

  Walsall

  260,000

  Wandsworth

  600,000

  West Surrey and North East Hampshire

  150,498

  1987–88

  Bloomsbury

  430,000

  Crewe

  375,000

  Torbay

  350,000

  Note: The figures shown represent the total amount of the award/settlement, excluding costs. They do not take account of the fact that the health authority's liability may have been reduced by a contribution from a medical defence organisation.

  Electro-convulsive Therapy
  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what regulations or guidelines are currently in force regarding the use of electro-convulsive therapy.

  Mrs. Currie
  In general electro-convulsive therapy (ECT) stands in the same position as any other treatment which may be offered or recommended in the clinical setting. Ethical and clinical standards are enforced by the professional organisations of practitioners such as the General Medical Council. For patients detained under section 58 of the Mental Health Act, however, regulation 16 specifies ECT as one of the treatments requiring consent or a second opinion. Administration of ECT for a detained patient under that section requires either the patient's informed consent or a second opinion from a doctor appointed by the Mental Health Act Commission that the treatment should be given.

  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what comparisons his Department has made of the frequency of use of electro-convulsive therapy in Britain and in other countries.

  Mrs. Currie
  We have no information on the frequency of use of electro-convulsive therapy in other countries which would enable us to make comparisons with treatment in this country. The Department is, however, aware of two major studies of psychiatrists' attitudes and practice with regard to electro-convulsive therapy, one in the United Kingdom, one in the United States of America, references to which are contained in "Essentials of Postgraduate Psychiatry" by Hill, Murray and Thorley (Second Edition).

  Hospital Beds (Waltham Forest)
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services, further to the answer of 5 May,Official Report, colums 547–49, if he has the figures available for 1987 of the average number of available beds for (a) acute and (b) geriatric specialties an Waltham Forest district health authority.

  Mrs. Currie
  This information is not available in the form requested. The number of available bed days during the 1987–88 financial year, classified by ward type rather than consultant specialty, will be available later this year.

  Blandford Fly
  Mr. Atkinson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what respresentations he has received on the hazards to health caused by the Blandford fly; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Currie
  No representations have been received about the unpleasant toxic bite of this fly, which I understand can cause painful swelling of the joints.

  AIDS
  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the number of recorded instances of persons infected with the AIDS virus within the Leicestershire health district.

  Mr. Meale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will provide the current figures per district health authority for England and Wales of patients registered as being infected by the AIDS virus.

  Mr. Newton
  I regret that this information is not held centrally. Figures on the latest number of reported cases of AIDS, by regional health authority are published monthly. Similar statistics on reported HIV antibody positive persons are published quarterly. Copies are available in the Library. The reports required under the AIDS (Control) Act 1987, the first of which will be submitted later this year, will contain figures on the number of positive results obtained from blood samples taken for the purposes of HIV antibody tests by facilities and services provided by district health authorities.

  Departmental Efficiency (Blackpool)
  Mr. Holt
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps are being taken to improve efficiency in his Department's headquarters in Blackpool.

  Mr. Portillo
  I refer my hon. Friend to my reply to him on 8 March 1988 at column 163.

  Nursing Homes
  Mr. Holt
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many additional nursing homes in the private sector have been opened in the past five years; and how many beds this represents.

  Mrs. Currie
  The number of private hospital homes and clinics registered in England has risen by 1,052 from 1,214 in 1982 to 2,266 in 1986, the latest date for which information is held centrally. Over the same period, the total available bed stock rose from 34,786 to 62,112, an increase of 27,326.

  Tobacco (Health Warnings)
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he has received the response of the tobacco industry to the 1986 voluntary agreement on tobacco products' advertising and promotion, and health warnings; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Currie
  The agreement commenced on 1 April 1986 and is due to run until 31 October 1989. There is no reason for the industry to respond to the agreement over 412
  and above their compliance with the terms. The working of the agreement is overseen by the committee for monitoring agreements on tobacco advertising and sponsorship whose first report was published on 23 March. Copies are available in the Library. The Government have indicated their intention to seek the renegotiation of the agreement to reflect current needs.

  Children (Malignancy)
  Mr. Boswell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what are the latest figures for the proportion of children newly diagnosed with malignancy who are expected to survive.

  Mrs. Currie
  The latest available information is shown in the table. It shows the percentage of children of each age groups which are expected to survive for five years after the date of diagnosis, based on cases newly diagnosed in 1981. It should be noted that survival is likely to vary considerably depending on the type and site of the cancer.

  Relative1 five-year survival rates (per cent.) for children newly diagnosed with malignancies in 1981, England and Wales.

  Age group

  0–4

  5–14

  Males

  63·0

  62·0

  Females

  55·0

  56·9

  1Adjusted to take account of the probability of surviving five years in sex and age group at death rates for England and Wales.

  Housing Benefit
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will publish the figures in real and cash terms for expenditure on housing benefit in the last three financial years of the old scheme and the estimated expenditure for the current financial year.

  Mr. Portillo
  Expenditure on housing benefit in the last three financial years of the old scheme and estimated expenditure for the current financial year in real and cash terms is set out in the tables. Real expenditure is shown in 1988/89 prices. Estimated expenditure for the current financial year includes the changes announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to the House on 27 April 1988.

  £ million

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  11988–89

  Table 1: Cash expenditure

  Housing benefit rent allowance and rebate

  3,129

  3,368

  3,620

  3,936

  rate rebate

  1,510

  1,650

  1,760

  1,378

  TOTAL

  4,639

  5,018

  5,380

  5,314

  Table 2: Real expenditure (1988–89 prices)

  Housing benefit rent allowance and rebate

  3,545

  3,696

  3,783

  3,936

  rate rebate

  1,711

  1,810

  1,839

  1,378

  TOTAL

  5,256

  5,506

  5,622

  5,314

  1Estimate.

  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many people in Renfrew district council and
  413
  Inverclyde district council are in receipt of less money due to the changes in housing benefits; and if he will show their previous and current entitlement.

  Mr. Portillo
  I regret that information relating to individual local authorities is not available.

  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will visit the constituencies of Renfrew, West and Inverclyde in 1988 to meet those who have had their housing benefit cut due to the recent changes in benefits.

  Mr. Portillo
  We have no immediate plans to do so.

  Mentally Ill Patients
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many mentally ill and mentally handicapped patients have moved from hospital care into residential care that is funded in full by supplementary benefit payments.

  Mr. Portillo
  I regret that the information requested is not available centrally.

  Family Income Statistics
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) how many children in Scotland were living in families below supplementary benefit level, on supplementary benefit and with incomes up to 140 per cent. of supplementary benefit level, classified by employment status; whether they were in one or two-parent families in 1985 on the latest basis and on a basis comparable with 1979 and 1981; and what proportion these children made up of the total number of children;

  (2) how many people in Scotland in 1985 were (a) below, (b) at and (c) up to 140 per cent. of the supplementary benefit level on the latest basis and on a basis comparable with 1979 and 1981; what percentage of the total population they represent in each case; what is his estimate of the number of childen living in such households in each case; and what percentage of total children they represent in each case.

  Mr. Portillo
  Separate analyses for Scotland, Wales and particular regions cannot be prepared on a reliable basis. Figures based on the methods of "Households Below Average Income: 1981–85" and "Low Income Families—1985" are available only for Great Britain as a whole. More detailed discussion of the reasons leading to this conclusion may be found in chapter 1, paragraph 14 and chapter 3, paragraph 11 of "Low Income Statistics—Report of a Technical Review: March 1988", copies of which are in the Library. The principal difficulty is that the family expenditure survey does not allow reliable estimates of those with low incomes to be made below the national level.

  Carbadox and Olaquindox
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what evidence his Department holds about the role of Carbadox as a carcinogen in humans.

  Mrs. Currie
  The Department holds information from animal test data provided by the manufacturers, Pfizer Ltd.; also the following published scientific reports:414

  1. Bentin L, Preller E, and Kowalsi B. Antimicrob. Agents Chemotherap. 20. 336–343, 1981.

  2. Yoshimura H, Nakamura M, Koeda T, and Yoshikawa K. Mut. Res. 90: 49–55, 1981.

  3. Voogd C E, Van der Stel J J, and Jacobs J J J A A. Mut. Res. 78: 233–242, 1980.

  4. Negishi T, Tanaka K, and Hayatsu H. Chem. Pharm. But. 28: 1347–1349, 1980.

  5. Ohta T, Moriya M, Kaneda Y, Watanabe K, Miyazawa T, Sugiyama F, and Shirasu Y. Mut. Res. 77: 21–30, 1980.

  6. Shirasu Y, Moriya M, and Kato K. Mut. Res. 53: 261, 1978. (Abstract).

  7. Oud J L, Reutlinger A H H, and Brangcr J. Mut. Res. 68: 179–182, 1979.

  8. Cihak R, Srb V, and Vontorkava M. Mut. Res. 116: 129–135, 1983.

  9. Sykora and Vortel 1986. Natal study of the Carcinogenicity of Cyadox and Carbadox. Biol. Vet. Chem. (Praha) 22, 53–62.

  The Department holds sufficient evidence to establish that this compound is a mutagen and a carcinogen, both in laboratory tests and in living animals.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what evidence his Department has that the compounds of Carbadox and Olaquindox are mutagens.

  Mrs. Currie
  The Department holds information from animal test data provided by the manufacturers, Pfizer and Bayer respectively, and the following published scientific reports:

  1. Bentin L., Prellar E. and Kowalski B (1981): Mutagenicity of quindoxin, its matabolites and two substituted Quinoxaline-di-N-oxides. Antimicrob. Agents and Chemother. 20 (3): 336–343.

  2. Cihak R., Srb V. and Vontorkova M. (1983). Cytogenetic effects of quixoxaline-1,4-dioxide-type growth-promoting agents. I. Micro-nucleus test in rats. Mutat. Res. 116: 129–135.

  3. Cihak R. and Vontorkova M. (1983). Cytogenetic effects of quinoxaline-1,4-dioxide-type growth-promoting agents. II. Metaphase analysis in mice. Mutat. Res. 117: 311–316.

  4. Cihak R. and Vontorkova M. (1985). Cytogenetic effects of quinoxaline-1,4-dioxide-type growth-promoting agents. III. Transplacental micronucleus test in mice. Mutat. Res. 144 (2): 81–84.

  5. English A. R. and Dunegan C. M. (1970). Quinoxaline-1,4-di-N-oxides. I. Inhibition of deoxyribonucleic acid synthesis in Escherichia coli by 2,3-dihydroxymethyl-quinoxaline-1,4-di-N -oxide (34481). Proc. Soc. Expl. Biol. Med. 133: 398–400.

  6. Suter W., Rosselet A. and Knussel F. (1978). Mode of action of quindoxin and substituted quinoxaline-di-N-oxides on Escherichia coli. Antimicrob. Agents and Chemotherap. 13 (5): 770–783.

  7. Voogd C. E., van der Stel J. J. and Jacobs J. J. J. A. A. (1980). The Mutagenic action of quindoxin, carbadox, olaquindox and some other N-oxides on bacteria and yeast. Mutat. Res. 78: 233–242, 1980.

  8. Yoshimura H., Nakamura M. and Koeda T. (1981). Mutagenic activities of carbadox and olaquindox—growth promoters for pigs. Mutat. Res. 90: 49–55.

  9. Negishi T., Tanaka K., Hayatsu H. (1980). Mutagenicity of carbadox and several quinoxaline-1,4-dioxide derivative. Chem. Pharm. Bull. 28, 1347–1349.

  10. Windholz M., Budavari S., Blumetti R. F., Otterbein E. S. (Eds) (1983). The Merck Index, Merck and Co. Inc. Rahway, New Jersey.

  11. Sykora A. and Vortel V. (1986). Natal Study of the Carcinogenicity of Cyadox and Carbadox. Biol. Vet. Chem. (Praha): 22, pages 53–62.

  12. Ohta T., Moriya M., Kaneda Y., Watanabe K., Miyazawa T., Sugiyama F., and Shirasu Y. Mut. Res. 77: 21–30, 1980.

  13. Shirasu Y., Moriya M., and Kato K. Mut Res. 53: 261, 1978.

  415

  14. Oud J. L., Reutlinger A. H. H. and Branger J. Mut. Res. 68: 179–182, 1979.

  The Department holds sufficient evidence to establish that these compounds are mutagens, both in laboratory tests and in living animals.

  Glaucoma
  Mr. Tom Arnold
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what arrangements he intends to make for identifying and advising close relatives of sufferers of glaucoma.

  Mrs. Currie
  Appropriate arrangements have still to be decided. We shall need to consult the medical profession and others before any scheme is finalised.

  Electorate (Hertfordshire)
  Mr. Robert B. Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will set out a table showing the 1988 electorate for each ward in the districts of(a) Stevenage, (b) Watford, (c) Welwyn Hatfield and (d) Hertsmere.

  Mrs. Currie
  The information requested is as follows:

  District of Stevenage

  Ward name

  Parliamentary electorate on the 1988 register

  Stevenage Parliamentary Constituency

  Symonds Green

  5,414

  Old Stevenage

  5,311

  Wellfield

  1,700

  St. Nicholas

  3,867

  Martins Wood

  4,797

  Pin Green

  3,961

  Mobbsbury

  3,512

  Chells

  3,257

  Bedwell Plash

  3,996

  Monkswood

  2,474

  Shephall

  3,522

  Bandley Hill

  6,065

  Roebuck

  4,235

  Longmeadow

  5,129

  (b) District of Watford

  Ward name

  Parliamentary electorate on the 1988 register

  Watford Parliamentary Constituency

  Woodside

  5,028

  Stanborough

  4,853

  Meriden

  5,646

  Leggatts

  4,306

  Callowland

  4,197

  Tudor

  4,964

  Nascot

  5,045

  Central

  4,715

  Park

  4,233

  Vicarage

  5,636

  Holywell

  4,360

  Oxhey

  4,810

  (c) District of Welwyn Hatfield

  Ward name

  Parliamentary Electorate on the 1988 register

  Welwyn Hatfield Parliamentary Constituency

  Welwyn West

  3,021

  Welwyn East

  4,186

  416

  Ward name

  Parliamentary Electorate on the 1988 register

  Handside

  5,090

  Peartree

  5,004

  Hollybush

  4,341

  Howlands

  4,664

  Sherrards

  4,771

  Haldens

  8,924

  Hatfield East

  5,782

  Hatfield West

  5,343

  Hatfield North

  4,714

  Hatfield Central

  4,483

  Brookmans Park and Little Heath

  4,349

  Welham Green and Redhall

  5,522

  Broxbourne Parliamentary Constituency

  Northaw

  4,363

  (d) District of Hertsmere

  Ward name

  Parliamentary Electorate on the 1988 register

  Hertsmere Parliamentary Constituency

  Aldenham East

  3,576

  Aldenham West

  3,560

  Brookmeadow

  3,050

  Campions

  1,984

  Cowley

  4,272

  Elstree

  4,123

  Heath North

  3,959

  Heath South

  3,759

  Hillside

  3,449

  Kenilworth

  3,044

  Lyndhurst

  3,346

  Mill

  3,482

  Potters Bar Central

  3,207

  Potters Bar East

  4,850

  Potters Bar North

  3,754

  Potters Bar South

  2,921

  Potters Bar West

  3,702

  St. James East

  3,185

  St. James West

  3,539

  Shenley

  1,558

  Hospices
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) whether he has any information concerning the numbers of nursing staff currently employed by hospices;

  (2) whether he has any information concerning the total size and percentage of total spending represented by nursing costs to hospices.

  Mr. Newton
  Most hospices are independent voluntary bodies and such information is therefore not collected centrally.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) whether he has any plans to take steps to assist hospices in meeting the cost of the new pay levels for nursing personnel;

  (2) whether he gives any guidance to regional health authorities about assistance given to hospices to meet nursing costs; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Newton
  I refer my hon. Friend to my reply to the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms. Harman) on 10 May at column 140.
  417
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what representations he has received concerning the problems faced by hospices in meeting the new pay levels for nursing personnel.

  Mr. Newton
  We have had representations from "Help the Hospices" and from a number of individual hospices through their local Members of Parliament.

  Research Grants
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the current level of funding by his Department for research project grants targeted to the elderly and care in the community.

  Mrs. Currie
  In 1987–88 £2·3 million of the Department's research budget was spent on community care projects. £1 million of this was spent on research focusing particularly on the elderly, whilst the remaining sum supported research into community care affecting all age groups. Expenditure in 1988–89 is likely to be at a similar level.

  Invalidity Pensions
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many people living in the area of(a) Renfrew district council and (b) Inverclyde district council are receiving invalidity pensions.

  Mr. Portillo
  I regret that information is not available in the precise form requested. The Department's local offices at Johnstone, Paisley and Port Glasgow serve the area covered by Renfrew district council and the local offices at Greenock and Port Glasgow serve the area covered by Inverclyde district council, but their boundaries are not conterminous.

  The numbers of people claiming sickness benefit or invalidity pension at these local offices as at 30 April 1988, the latest date for which information is available, is as follows:

  Number

  Johnstone ILO

  3,050

  Paisley ILO

  7,022

  Port Glasgow ILO

  1,868

  Greenock ILO

  4,152

  I regret that separate records are not kept of the numbers of claimants in receipt of sickness benefit and invalidity pension.

  The source of the above information is a 100 per cent. count of cases in action.

  Pneumoconiosis
  Mr. Martyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the basis for estimation of pneumoconiosis damage for payment of miners' industrial injury benefit.

  Mr. Scott
  Where a claim is made for industrial injuries disablement benefit for the prescribed disease pneumoconiosis the extent of the disablement is assessed by a special medical board. The board takes into account the nature and extent of the symptoms as explained by the claimant to the board doctors, the physical signs found on clinical 418
  examination, the extent of the radiological changes of pneumoconiosis, the results of lung function tests, and any other medical evidence. The results of the tests are compared with the results expected of a normal healthy person of the same age, sex and height.

  Other conditions which are present, particularly pulmonary tuberculosis, chronic bronchitis or emphysema may also be taken into account in assessing the overall disablement.

  War Pensions
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many people living in(a) Renfrew, West and (b) Inverclyde are receiving war pensions.

  Mr. Portillo
  This information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Invalid Care and Mobility Allowance
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) how many people in the Renfrew, West and Inverclyde constituency are receiving invalid care allowance; and if he will also give the figures for Renfrew district council and Inverclyde district council areas;

  (2) how many people in Renfrew district council and Inverclyde district council areas are receiving mobility allowance.

  Mr. Portillo
  I regret that this information is not available.

  Southampton Office
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what are his plans for his Department's local office in Southampton over the next five years.

  Mr. Portillo
  At the present time the Department has no plans to change the location or boundaries of its office in Southampton.

  Essex Hospitals
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many individual representations he has received in opposition to West Essex health authority plans for Princess Alexandra hospital, Harlow, and the corresponding downgrading of St. Margaret's hospital, Epping, and the Hertfordshire and Essex hospital, Bishop's Stortford.

  Mrs. Currie
  We have received five letters which have been referred by hon. Members together with several thousand letters direct from members of the public and a number of petitions about changes to services at St. Margaret's and the Herts and Essex hospitals proposed by West Essex health authority.

  Abortions
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the range of fees charged by private clinics operating with a Department of Health and Social Security licence for terminations of pregnancy together with the range of gestational ages to which they apply.

  Mr. Newton
  I refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 17 November 1987 at columns 524–5. He may wish to approach individual approved places direct about the levels of their fees.
  419
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) if he will list the number of private clinics licensed by his Department to conduct terminations of pregnancy from 1968 to the latest date for which figures are available;

  (2) if he will list the private clinics licensed to conduct terminations of pregnancy which have had their licences revoked since 1968 together with the grounds for that withdrawal of the licence.

  Mr. Newton
  Our records show that in the period since 1968, 110 places have been approved under the Abortion Act 1967. Of these, 38 are no longer approved for the following reasons:

  Places

  Approval ceased at proprietor's request or because of change of ownership

  17

  Approval withdrawn by DHSS because of a breach of the Assurances or mismanagement by the proprietors

  21

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will list the number of applications by private clinics to conduct terminations of pregnancy which have been refused by his Department since 1968 together with the grounds for refusal.

  Mr. Newton
  Our records show six cases in which an application reached its final stages but was refused. In each case this was because the proprietor was considered unsuitable.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will list the number of related prosecutions that have been brought following the revocation of a licence to terminate pregnancy against the proprietors of private clinics since 1968.

  Mr. Newton
  The information available indicates that of the prosecutions brought under the Abortion Act none has been directly related to the withdrawal of an approval.

  Supplementary Benefit
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what has been the total level of supplementary benefits payments that have been made in respect of residential care for elderly people in each of the last three years.

  Mr. Portillo
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply to the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) on 29 April at column 336.

  Regional Health Authorities (Budgets)
  Mr. Corbett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will list the total budgets for each regional health authority in the United Kingdom for the last 10 years.

  Mr. Newton
  For information on the total revenue and capital expenditure incurred by health authorities in England, including analyses by region (and for recent years to individual regional and district health authorities), I refer the hon. Member to the Department's annual booklet "Health Authorities' Annual Accounts—National Summary (England)"—copies of which are held in the Library.
  420
  Questions concerning health authorities in the other countries within the United Kingdom are matters for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Wales and Northern Ireland.

  Population Statistics
  Mr. Corbett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will list the current population of each regional health authority in the United Kingdom.

  Mrs. Currie
  Estimates of resident populations in mid-1986 are listed in the table. Figures relating to mid-1987 will be available shortly.

  Thousands

  Number

  England: Regional Health Authorities

  Northern

  3,080·2

  Yorkshire

  3,601·4

  Trent

  4,633·8

  East Anglian

  1,991·6

  North West Thames

  3,488·1

  North East Thames

  3,760·8

  South East Thames

  3,618·6

  South West Thames

  2,964·5

  Wessex

  2,876·4

  Oxford

  2,476·3

  South Western

  3,177·5

  West Midlands

  5,181·2

  Mersey

  2,414·1

  North Western

  3,989·8

  Wales

  2,821·0

  Scotland: Health Board Areas

  Borders

  101·8

  Central

  271·8

  Dumfries and Galloway

  146·8

  Fife

  343·8

  Grampian

  502·9

  Highland

  200·8

  Lothian

  741·9

  Tayside

  392·3

  Orkney Islands

  19·3

  Shetland Islands

  23·6

  Western Isles Islands Area

  31·5

  Strathclyde Health Areas

  Argyll and Clyde

  445·3

  Ayrshire and Arran

  374·8

  Greater Glasgow

  959·8

  Lanarkshire

  564·6

  Northern Ireland: Health and Personal Social Services Boards

  Eastern

  642·1

  Northern

  379·0

  Southern

  288·9

  Western

  256·8

  Mr. Speed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what projections of population growth his Department are using for planning purposes over the next five years in the South East Thames region, and for each of the Kent health authorities.

  Mrs. Currie
  It is for the South East Thames regional health authority to plan services for that region making use of available population projections such as those published by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys.

  Office of Population Censuses and Surveys
  Mr. French
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services whether there is to be any change in the running cost limit of the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys.

  Mrs. Currie
  Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary supplementary estimate, the gross running cost limit for OPCS Class XX Vote 16 will be increased by £50,000 from £38,002,000 to £38,052,000 reflecting increased expenditure by OPCS on services provided to the Ministry of Defence. The MoD gross running cost limit for Class I Vote I will be correspondingly reduced by £50,000. There is no overall increase in gross running costs as a result of these changes.

  Benefit Changes (Coventry)
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will publish tables using the assumptions in his answer to the then hon. Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) of 4 February,Official Report, column 737, but using expenditure and benefit figures appropriate for families in Coventry for which he has sufficient data,

  Old benefit system at hypothetical rates April 1988

  Coventry L.A.

  Married couple with two children aged 4 and 6

  Earnings

  Tax

  National insurance

  Family income supplement

  Child benefit

  Rent

  Rent rebate

  Rates

  Rate rebate

  Fares to work

  FSM

  FWM

  Net weekly spending power

  60·00

  0·00

  3·00

  28·70

  14·50

  22·44

  18·88

  10·79

  7·27

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  91·65

  70·00

  0·00

  4·90

  23·70

  14·50

  22·44

  17·63

  10·79

  6·87

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  93·10

  80·00

  1·22

  5·60

  18·70

  14·50

  22·44

  16·38

  10·79

  6·47

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  94·53

  90·00

  3·92

  6·30

  13·70

  14·50

  22·44

  15·13

  10·79

  6·07

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  94·48

  100·00

  6·62

  7·00

  8·70

  14·50

  22·44

  13·88

  10·79

  5·67

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  94·43

  110·00

  9·32

  9·90

  3·70

  14·50

  22·44

  12·36

  10·79

  5·10

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  91·74

  120·00

  12·02

  10·80

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  10·28

  10·79

  4·28

  5·85

  2·55

  0·00

  89·71

  130·00

  14·72

  11·70

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  6·98

  10·79

  2·98

  5·85

  2·55

  0·00

  91·51

  140·00

  17·42

  12·60

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  3·68

  10·79

  1·68

  5·85

  2·55

  0·00

  93·31

  150·00

  20·12

  13·50

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  2·55

  0·00

  94·35

  160·00

  22·82

  14·40

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  0·00

  0·00

  98·20

  170·00

  25·52

  15·30

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  0·00

  0·00

  104·60

  New benefit system from April 1988

  Coventry L.A.

  Married couple with two children aged 4 and 6

  Earnings

  Tax

  National insurance

  FC

  Child benefit

  Rent

  Rent rebate

  Rates

  Rate rebate

  Fares to work

  Net weekly spending power

  Difference between systems

  60·00

  0·00

  3·00

  40·32

  14·50

  22·44

  7·68

  10·79

  2·84

  5·85

  83·26

  -8·39

  70·00

  0·00

  4·90

  34·65

  14·50

  22·44

  6·10

  10·79

  2·36

  5·85

  83·63

  -9·47

  80·00

  1·22

  5·60

  28·99

  14·50

  22·44

  4·52

  10·79

  1·87

  5·85

  83·98

  -10·55

  90·00

  3·92

  6·30

  24·37

  14·50

  22·44

  3·23

  10·79

  1·47

  5·85

  84·27

  -10·21

  100·00

  6·62

  7·00

  19·75

  14·50

  22·44

  1·95

  10·79

  1·08

  5·85

  84·58

  -9·85

  110·00

  9·32

  9·90

  16·67

  14·50

  22·44

  1·09

  10·79

  0·81

  5·85

  84·77

  -6·97

  120·00

  12·02

  10·80

  12·19

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  84·79

  -4·92

  130·00

  14·72

  11·70

  7·71

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  86·71

  -4·80

  140·00

  17·42

  12·60

  3·23

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  88·63

  -4·68

  150·00

  20·12

  13·50

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  91·80

  -2·55

  160·00

  22·82

  14·40

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  98·20

  0·00

  170·00

  25·52

  15·30

  0·00

  14·50

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  104·60

  0·00

  422
  and with an additional column showing the extent of the differences that will result from the changes in benefits in April.

  Mr. Scott
  [holding answer 3 May 1988]: The information requested is set out in the tables. It should be noted that the results are essentially hypothetical. They compare the post-reform position in April 1988 not with the actual pre-reform cash situation but with a hypothetical position which they might have been in, had the previous structure continued and been uprated on the assumptions in "Impact of the Reformed Structure of Income Related Benefits" (October 1987). Second, the comparisons are based on average local authority housing charges in Coventry but do not reflect the wide variety of rents and domestic rates that people actually pay. Finally the comparisons do not take account of the transitional cash protection arrangements announced on the 27 April.

  More importantly the claimants in the examples are in the groups that may qualify for transitional protection under the arrangement announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on 27 April. The cash differences will, therefore, in those cases be significantly lower (£2·50).
  423

  Old benefit system at hypothetical rates April 1988

  Coventry L.A.

  Married couple with three children aged 3, 8 and 11

  Earnings

  Tax

  National insurance

  Family income supplement

  Child benefit

  Rent

  Rent rebate

  Rates

  Rate rebate

  Fares to work

  FSM

  FWM

  Net weekly spending power

  60·00

  0·00

  3·00

  32·90

  21·75

  22·44

  19·91

  10·79

  7·60

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  107·01

  70·00

  0·00

  4·90

  30·50

  21·75

  22·44

  18·01

  10·79

  6·99

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  110·20

  80·00

  1·22

  5·60

  25·50

  21·75

  22·44

  16·76

  10·79

  6·59

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  111·63

  90·00

  3·92

  6·30

  20·50

  21·75

  22·44

  15·51

  10·79

  6·19

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  111·58

  100·00

  6·62

  7·00

  15·50

  21·75

  22·44

  14·26

  10·79

  5·79

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  111·53

  110·00

  9·32

  9·90

  10·50

  21·75

  22·44

  12·87

  10·79

  5·30

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  109·05

  120·00

  12·02

  10·80

  5·50

  21·75

  22·44

  11·22

  10·79

  4·65

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  108·15

  130·00

  14·72

  11·70

  0·50

  21·75

  22·44

  9·57

  10·79

  4·00

  5·85

  5·10

  1·83

  107·25

  140·00

  17·42

  12·60

  0·00

  21·75

  22·44

  6·44

  10·79

  2·77

  5·85

  5·10

  0·00

  106·96

  150·00

  20·12

  13·50

  0·00

  21·75

  22·44

  3·14

  10·79

  1·47

  5·85

  5·10

  0·00

  108·76

  160·00

  22·82

  14·40

  0·00

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  5·10

  0·00

  110·55

  170·00

  25·52

  15·30

  0·00

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  0·00

  0·00

  111·85

  New benefit system from April 1988

  Coventry L.A.

  Married couple with three children aged 3, 8 and 11

  Earnings

  Tax

  National insurance

  FC

  Child benefit

  Rent

  Rent rebate

  Rates

  Rate rebate

  Fares to work

  Net weekly spending power

  Difference between systems

  60·00

  0·00

  3·00

  51·72

  21·75

  22·44

  6·02

  10·79

  2·33

  5·85

  99·74

  -7·27

  70·00

  0·00

  4·90

  46·05

  21·75

  22·44

  4·44

  10·79

  1·85

  5·85

  100·11

  -10·09

  80·00

  1·22

  5·60

  40·39

  21·75

  22·44

  2·86

  10·79

  1·36

  5·85

  100·46

  -11·17

  90·00

  3·92

  6·30

  35·77

  21·75

  22·44

  1·58

  10·79

  0·96

  5·85

  100·76

  -10·82

  100·00

  6·62

  7·00

  31·15

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·57

  5·85

  100·77

  -10·76

  110·00

  9·32

  9·90

  28·07

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  101·52

  -7·53

  120·00

  12·02

  10·80

  23·59

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  103·44

  -4·71

  130·00

  14·72

  11·70

  19·11

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  105·36

  -1·89

  140·00

  17·42

  12·60

  14·63

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  107·28

  0·32

  150·00

  20·12

  13·50

  10·15

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  109·20

  0·44

  160·00

  22·82

  14·40

  5·67

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  111·12

  0·57

  170·00

  25·52

  15·30

  1·19

  21·75

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  113·04

  1·19

  Old benefit system at hypothetical rates April 1988

  Coventry L.A.

  Lone parent with two children aged 4 and 6

  Earnings

  Tax

  National insurance

  Family income supplement

  Child benefit

  Rent

  Rent rebate

  Rates

  Rate rebate

  Fares to work

  FSM

  FWM

  Net weekly spending power

  60·00

  0·00

  3·00

  28·70

  19·40

  22·44

  17·65

  10·79

  6·88

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  94·93

  70·00

  0·00

  4·90

  23·70

  19·40

  22·44

  16·40

  10·79

  6·48

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  96·38

  80·00

  1·22

  5·60

  18·70

  19·40

  22·44

  15·15

  10·79

  6·08

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  97·81

  90·00

  3·92

  6·30

  13·70

  19·40

  22·44

  13·90

  10·79

  5·68

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  97·76

  100·00

  6·62

  7·00

  8·70

  19·40

  22·44

  12·39

  10·79

  5·12

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  97·29

  110·00

  9·32

  9·90

  3·70

  19·40

  22·44

  10·74

  10·79

  4·47

  5·85

  2·55

  1·83

  94·39

  120·00

  12·02

  10·80

  0·00

  19·40

  22·44

  8·66

  10·79

  3·65

  5·85

  2·55

  0·00

  92·36

  New benefit system from April 1988

  Coventry L.A.

  Lone parent with two children aged 4 and 6

  Earnings

  Tax

  National insurance

  FC

  Child benefit

  Rent

  Rent rebate

  Rates

  Rate rebate

  Fares to work

  Net weekly spending power

  Difference between systems

  60·00

  0·00

  3·00

  40·32

  19·40

  22·44

  1·60

  10·79

  0·97

  5·85

  80·21

  -14·72

  70·00

  0·00

  4·90

  34·65

  19·40

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  80·07

  -16·31

  80·00

  1·22

  5·60

  28·99

  19·40

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  82·49

  -15·32

  90·00

  3·92

  6·30

  24·37

  19·40

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  84·47

  -13·29

  100·00

  6·62

  7·00

  19·75

  19·40

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  86·45

  -10·84

  110·00

  9·32

  9·90

  16·67

  19·40

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  87·77

  -6·62

  120·00

  12·02

  10·80

  12·19

  19·40

  22·44

  0·00

  10·79

  0·00

  5·85

  89·69

  -2·67

  424