Sitting of 30 November 1987

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS

  PRIVATE BUSINESS
  GREATER MANCHESTER (LIGHT RAPID TRANSIT SYSTEM) BILL [Lords]
  GREATER MANCHESTER (LIGHT RAPID TRANSIT SYSTEM) (NO. 2) BILL [Lords]
  Orders for consideration, as amended, read.
  To be considered tomorrow.

Oral Answers to Questions
  TRANSPORT

    Airline Competition
    Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will take further steps to increase competition between airlines on European routes out of Heathrow and Gatwick airports; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Paul Channon): Implementation of the European Community aviation liberalisation package is the most important step that we could take at this stage to increase competition in Europe. We shall be looking for its formal adoption at the Council of Ministers on 7 December. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and I will be holding talks this Wednesday with the Spanish Foreign and Transport Ministers with the aim of reaching agreement about use of Gibraltar airport and ending Spanish opposition to adoption of the package.
    Mr. Steen: Is it correct that my right hon. Friend is powerless to vary the undertakings given by British Airways to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission, which allow the commission to give the green light to the British Airways-British Caledonian deal? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the undertakings by British Airways are meaningless, have no force of law and cannot be enforced by him or by the courts? Does he accept that it will be a serious blow to competition in the airline industry if the merger goes ahead?
    Mr. Channon: I assure my hon. Friend that what British Airways promised to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission can be enforced. The Civil Aviation Authority, my right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and I have, in various
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    ways, the power to make British Airways stick to the promises that it gave to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. As my hon. Friend knows, the Secretary of State decided—indeed, he had no alternative—to accept the report of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission that a merger between British Airways and British Caledonian would not operate against the public interest. The Director General of Fair Trading has powers to investigate anti-competitive practices. In addition, I have already asked the CAA to investigate and report to me one year after the merger, if it goes ahead.
    Mr. Steel: The Secretary of State must be aware of the growing concern among hon. Members of all parties, and especially among consumers outside the House, that the prospective merger between British Airways and British Caledonian would result in a 93 per cent. monopoly of British air traffic. Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore, give an undertaking that he, on behalf of the Government, will do nothing to interpose in the commercial discussions that are currently taking place between British Airways and SAS, or Air Europe, and that the Government will give the talks a fair wind with a view to providing Britain with an effective second-force airline?
    Mr. Channon: I have not been approached, except informally, by anyone regarding any other merger. I am anxious to encourage fair competition between British airlines and to ensure that they can compete aggressively against foreign carriers. Any link, whether between British Caledonian and British Airways, British Caledonian and SAS, or British Caledonian and anyone else, should be considered against those criteria.
    Mr. Haselhurst: Does my right hon. Friend agree that a grievous handicap to the policy of creating greater competition between British airlines out of Heathrow and Gatwick is the lack of runway capacity at those airports? Is my right hon. Friend preparing to grasp that prickly nettle?
    Mr. Channon: Not today, Sir. Indeed, that is largely a matter for the British Airports Authority and the CAA, at least in the initial stages. However, I am well aware of my hon. Friend's views.
    Mr. Barry Jones: Does the Secretary of State know that the wings of the airbus are made in my constituency at the famous Broughton factory and that British Caledonian has ordered the airbus? What would he say today to assure my constituents that their work, helping Britain to sell abroad, will continue?
    Mr. Channon: The hon. Gentleman should take up that matter with British Caledonian, but I am well aware of those facts. At present, many commercial discussions are going on and I should not enter into them, no matter how persuasive the hon. Gentleman is.
    Mr. Adley: In view of what my right hon. Friend said about talks between the British and Spanish Governments next week, will he bring to the attention of the Foreign Secretary that the view of millions of Europeans on the Gibraltar question will not be enhanced in favour of Gibraltarians if they refuse to allow the reasonable compromise that the British and Spanish Governments could reach in the general interests of passengers in Europe on low air fares?
    Mr. Channon: I hope that on Wednesday a solution will be reached that is acceptable to all parties and that the package will be adopted on 7 December.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: On the proposition that SAS and British Caledonian might come together, has the Secretary of State noticed Lord Young's statement that such a merger need not go to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission? Does he agree with that? Does he have any policy on the foreign ownership of British airlines? Is it not ironic that the Secretary of State seems now to rely on a 50 per cent. state-owned airline to rescue a British private company?
    Mr. Channon: A reference to the MMC is entirely for my noble Friend. It has nothing to do with me. As normal, he will undoubtedly receive the advice of the Director General of Fair Trading. It is the CAA's duty to advise me when a British airline is no longer United Kingdom-controlled. I cannot speculate on how I might or might not use powers to direct the revocation of British Caledonian's licences.

    Bus Lanes
    Mr. Couchman: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to alleviate the traffic congestion in south-east London arising from bus lanes.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Peter Bottomley): We shall shortly be issuing new advice on the design and assessment of with-flow bus lanes. Well designed but lanes should not increase overall delays to traffic.
    Mr. Couchman: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer, which is more positive than I expected. Does he agree that it makes little sense to halve the carriage width of our most important radial routes into London—an extreme example is the flyover on the Old Kent road where four lanes merge into one — particularly when motorists seem not to understand how to use bus lanes, treating them as no-go areas for 24 hours a day instead of the period for which they are intended?
    Mr. Bottomley: Yes, Sir. There is little dispute that most bus lanes work well. Some are under review and we are considering introducing more on trunk roads.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Does the Minister agree that the way to ensure that traffic flows well through south-east London is to police bus lanes to ensure that they are not used for parking, which causes enormous congestion? Does he agree that the second way is to ensure that London Transport has sufficient resources to run regular, efficient bus and other transport services to reduce the massive volume of private traffic and heavy lorries which clog up main routes, such as the Old Kent road in my constituency? We need improved public transport, not more private transport.
    Mr. Bottomley: The hon. Gentleman's constituency and the rest of London need economic prosperity, but it is difficult to achieve increased prosperity, more jobs and environmental relief without some money being spent on roads. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that trunk road capital expenditure in London this year is £85 million and underground capital expenditure £200 million. Most trunk road spending is on docklands and east London to help improve that area so that the rest of London does not benefit from all the economic prosperity.
    Mr. Harry Greenway: Is my hon. Friend aware that bus lanes are slowing commercial traffic and increasing prices substantially? Is he further aware of the former Labour-controlled GLC's ban on heavy lorries? Can he say what the ban has cost in terms of the number of notices issued and the number of lorries banned?
    Mr. Bottomley: I can give the factual answer to that, without giving a judgment on the lorry ban. Two thousand signs were erected and 20,000 permits with 10 pages each, making 200,000 pages of permits, were issued. The cost was £250,000 and I think that the GLC told us that four lorries were banned.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Stick to the question please.
    Mr. Tony Lloyd: Will the Minister confirm that, at the moment, bus lanes save London Transport about £7 million? Will he further confirm that if those lanes were properly policed they would save up to £48 million and that that would help considerably to lower fares, get the public on to buses, decrease congestion on London's roads and do something serious about the general state of congestion in London?
    Mr. Bottomley: It is worth repeating that most of the bus lanes are not controversial. My right hon. Friend expects boroughs to give priority to public transport vehicles over other classes of traffic when that is justified on overall economic grounds. That should be acceptable to both sides of the House.

    Motorway Lane Closures
    Mrs. Golding: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if any estimate has been made of the additional journey time for motorists arising from delays resulting from lane closures on motorways in Britain.
    Mr. Peter Bottomley: No. We aim to keep delays to the minimum. Lane rental contracts saved 830 days of obstruction last year. The figure is two thirds higher than the year before.
    Mrs. Golding: Is the Minister aware that the M6 motorway, which passes through my constituency, carries much more traffic than it was originally designed to carry? Is he further aware that that has resulted in high costs of repair and intolerable delays? Can he inform the House when a relief road will be provided for the over-burdened section of the M6 motorway?
    Mr. Bottomley: No, I cannot. It is worth remembering that much of the obstruction on the motorways followed from an announcement made in 1975 by a former Minister for Transport, the right hon. Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert), who said:
    "I have decided to cut maintenance expenditure per mile on trunk roads and I urge local authorities to do the same."—[Official Report, 24 July 1975; Vol. 896, c. 318.]
    That announcement was followed by a 40 per cent. cut in maintenance and we are still trying to catch up.
    Mr. Higgins: Has my hon. Friend noticed that delays are much worse when the closure involves the outside lane of a motorway rather than the inside lanes? That is so because anti-social characters rush along the outside lane and then there is delay while they try to cut in. Will my hon. Friend consider placing "no overtaking" signs ahead of signs that states that an outside lane is to be closed?
    Mr. Bottomley: That is one of the issues that we are seriously considering. After tragic and often unnecessary crashes on the motorways, one of the things that I welcome is the increased publicity, especially by television, regarding those drivers who think that they are being clever by moving into the contraflow two or three vehicles ahead of those they would have followed if they had moved, as suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins), into the inside lanes when advised by the notice.
    Mr. Boyes: Does the Minister agree that there are also delays on the A19, particularly, but not exceptionally, in my constituency — [HON. MKMBERS: "That is not a motorway."] It is a motorway. Will the Minister also explain why the A19 is always under repair well before—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Is the A19 a motorway?
    Mr. Robert Hughes: It should be.
    Mr. Bottomley: Perhaps I can look at that matter and write to the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington (Mr. Boyes).
    Mr. Dickens: Is my right hon. Friend aware that each time a lane is closed on a motorway it costs industry, salesmen and directors millions of pounds because of lost meetings and the rest of it? When a decision is made to close a lane, does the road contruction unit make that decision, or the more local road maintenance unit? As so much money is involved and there is a loss to British industry, can we ensure that the ground rules are well in place before lanes are closed?
    Mr. Bottomley: Yes, Sir.

    Civil Aviation Policy
    Mr. Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he last met the chairman of the British Airports Authority plc to discuss civil aviation policy.
    Mr. Channon: On 17 June.
    Mr. Morgan: Will the Secretary of State tell the House what he is proposing to do about the distribution of aviation activity in this country in the light of the severe congestion at airports in the London area and the worsening situation as regards near misses? In particular, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the problems that have arisen as a result of the opening of STOLport and the final 30 miles into or out of STOLport that are outside the terminal manoeuvring area and, therefore, outside the area in which direct assistance can be given by the air traffic controllers to pilots? Will he pay particular attention to the near misses that were reported in The Observer yesterday regarding planes flying into and out of STOLport?
    Mr. Channon: I believe that that is a matter for the CAA. Nevertheless, I shall deal with the hon. Gentleman's questions. As regards the question of congestion in general, the House is aware that major developments are already under way at Stansted. Next year a new terminal will open at Gatwick and a major refurbishment of terminal 3 at Heathrow is under way
    As regards STOLport and the allegations that have been made, that is something for which the CAA is directly responsible. It has a statutory responsibility for air safety
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    in this country. I shall discuss what the hon. Gentleman said with the chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority, but if it did not accept that the position at STOLport was satisfactory, it would not have allowed it to proceed.
    Mr. McCrindle: When my right hon. Friend next meets the chairman of the British Airports Authority, will he discuss with him the welcome agreement reached—I believe since his previous meeting with Sir Norman Payne—between Britain and the Scandinavian countries on access and capacity? Will he take the opportunity to express the hope that, building on that agreement, competition in air fares between Britain and those important European destinations will be enhanced?
    Mr. Channon: I am extremely anxious, as is the whole House, to see a reduction in European air fares. Although my hon. Friend's first points are valid, I must say that so far there has not been much movement on reducing air fares in Scandinavia.
    Rev. Martin Smyth: When the Secretary of State meets the chairman of the British Airports Authority, will he mention the concerns of those who travel on the Belfast-Heathrow route about the improved accommodation at Heathrow, which is still overcrowded? Will he try to discover whether a defect in the security vetting at Heathrow does not allow passengers diverted to Edinburgh to get of the plane and telephone those who are waiting for them at London to say that they will be delayed? What is the security problem that does not allow us, having been vetted at Heathrow, to make a telephone call in Edinburgh?
    Mr. Channon: The hon. Gentleman makes some important points. I shall discuss them with the chairman and write to the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Colvin: Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that in 1976 there was one near-miss for every 18,700 take-offs and landings of commercial aircraft, and that last year there was one near-miss for every 70,600 take-offs and landings? Is it not four times safer to fly today than it was 10 years ago?
    Mr. Channon: I would have to check my hon. Friend's figures, but there is no doubt that near-misses are decreasing. I should have made the point when the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) asked his supplementary question, because he — no doubt inadvertently — gave the misleading impression that near-misses were increasing, not decreasing.
    Mr. Spearing: In respect of the Secretary of State's helpful reply about STOLport in my constituency, will he acknowledge that the risks apply not only to people in aircraft but to those who live in urban areas? When he meets the chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority, will he ask whether immediate steps can be taken to ameliorate the position, at least as presented in the newspaper reports? What can be done to expedite the plans already in hand, which will not be completed until the early 1990s? Can they be speeded up?
    Mr. Channon: I shall certainly take up that matter with the chairman, whom I shall meet soon. I know of the hon. Gentleman's helpful attitude to all these matters, some of which he may already have discussed with the authority. All aspects of aviation safety regulation are the statutory

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    responsibility of the Civil Aviation Authority, and I shall discuss with the chairman all the relevant points made today.

    London Underground
    Sir John Biggs-Davison: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received about conditions on the London Underground; and what communication he has had on this matter with London Regional Transport.
    Mr. Channon: Until last week, a handful of letters from Members of this House and about 30 from the general public during the past three months. I meet the chairman of LRT at regular intervals, and quality of service is one of the subjects that we discuss.
    Sir John Biggs-Davison: Whatever the findings of the King's Cross inquiry on staffing levels, is my right hon. Friend aware that my constituents and I travel late at night on the Central line with considerable apprehension in the absence of staff on duty? If LRT cannot afford it, could a Manpower Services Commission scheme provide extra staff to assist and protect passengers?
    Mr. Channon: I understand my hon. Friend's concern. I know that portion of the Underground well. My hon. Friend knows that day-to-day operations are a matter for LRT, and it is for it to satisfy itself that its statutory duty is met. That duty requires LRT to operate safely, efficiently and with economy.
    If the formal investigation reveals any deficiencies, they will naturally have to be attended to—and they will be. The whole issue of staffing levels will clearly engage the attention of those who are interested in this topic.
    Mr. Corbyn: Is the Secretary of State aware that many people in London are genuinely concerned about safety on the Underground network, not only because of the awful tragedy in King's Cross, but because of the general safety problems caused by overcrowding? When he meets the chairman of London Regional Transport, will he discuss with him the dangers of overcrowding on Underground trains during the rush hour and, very important, the availability of emergency services should an accident occur?
    Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that he should review his attitude to London Regional Transport and increase its grant to levels commensurate with those for other capital cities' public transport systems, rather than force London Regional Transport to run at close to danger levels because of its lack of resources?
    Mr. Channon: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's last remarks. Investment in the London Underground has been increasing, and is programmed to increase, by substantial amounts — far higher amounts than a few years ago when the Underground was run by the GLC.
    I well understand the concern expressed by the hon. Gentleman — and by his constituents, other hon. Members and the general public—about the general issue of safety. London Underground management teams, together with London Underground Ltd. fire prevention section, instituted a 100 per cent. check on the Underground system the day after the tragic fire. All stations, escalators, cross passages and machinery rooms have been checked, and anything needing urgent attention was dealt with on the spot. An action plan of less urgent
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    matters is being drawn up. Obviously, this is a matter that is, rightly, very much in the mind of London Regional Transport, and it is one that I shall be continually discussing with it.
    Mr. John Marshall: What proposals has my right hon. Friend received from London Regional Transport about the long over due improvement in the quality of service on the Northern line?
    Mr. Channon: I have received a number of proposals from LRT, and the House may be interested to hear what the the board member for finance said at the weekend:
    "We are not constrained by financing; the Government has approved every investment programme that we have put before it."
    Investment in the Underground, which was running at £114 million a year—at today's prices—between 1970 and 1984, has risen to about £199 million this year, and will be more than £200 million in 1988–89. It is extremely important that the House should understand that an enormous amount of investment is going into the London Underground, and has been for the past few years, and I am determined to continue that.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Will the Secretary of State place in the Library a copy of the recommendations arising from the Oxford street fire disaster, together with a check list showing which of them have been implemented?
    As the formal part of the inquiry into King's Cross will not start until some time in January, as soon as the exact cause of that fire is known will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to make a statement to the House, so that people's understandable fears of using the Underground can be allayed as soon as possible?
    Mr. Channon: Naturally, I should like to consider that. I am not at all sure yet that we know the cause, and it may take the inquiry to establish it. However, I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's comment in mind.
    Naturally, the recommendations following the Oxford Circus station fire have all been followed up. Most of them have been fully implemented and, in a few cases, work is still in hand. A small number of recommendations were not adopted for technical reasons. A full report is being prepared. I shall consider what the hon. Gentleman has said and see whether there is some way in which I can make the information available to the satisfaction of all hon. Members.

    Network SouthEast
    Dr. Marek: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will direct the British Railways Board to respond to the proposal of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission and make an estimate of the level of investment required to meet the quality of service recommemdations contained in the recent report on Network SouthEast.
    The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. David Mitchell):
    British Rail is investigating the level of investment needed to meet the MMCs recommendations.
    Dr. Marek: Has the Minister read the MMCs recent report? If so, is he aware of the large gaps in quality of service targets and in information about details of standards achieved? Will he ask British Rail management to examine the problems of these detailed targets—and

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    do so himself—and obtain some better management efficiency so that the public know exactly what the standards are and how British Rail proposes to meet them?
    Mr. Mitchell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing out that point, because I have been looking at the standards of quality achieved on Network SouthEast. Although I personally am never satisfied, it is the case that, in 1979, 84 per cent. of trains arrived within five minutes of their scheduled time. By March 1986 the figure had gone up to 87 per cent., and in October this year it had reached 93 per cent. Sometimes, knocking British Rail should give way to giving credit to the staff for a magnificent job, which is done often in very adverse conditions.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: Could investment projects in the south-east be affected by the massive guarantees of income to Eurotunnel by British Rail, despite the previous written instructions not to give any such guarantee? Who will pay if the project is the dismal flop that the investing public obviously think it will be? Will it be other rail travellers, or the taxpayers? Does my hon. Friend not have an obligation to the House to make a statement on the consequences of the dismal failure of the Eurotunnel share issue?
    Mr. Mitchell: My hon. Friend well knows that the Government are not involved in the financing of Eurotunnel. The arrangements that British Rail has made are purely commercial, to enable it to have secure certainty of use of the tunnel. It is making payments for that, and for no other purpose.

    Fares
    Mr. Tony Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent representations he has received about fare levels on public transport systems.
    Mr. David Mitchell: Since London Regional Transport announced its new fare levels from January 1988, my right hon. Friend has received no representations on the matter.
    Mr. Lloyd: Will the Minister confirm that the imposition of VAT on public transport fares will lead to higher fares for the consumer, to fewer passengers using public transport, and, ultimately, to greater congestion, particularly in the south-east? Is the Secretary of State still fighting in the Cabinet against VAT on public transport fares, or has it been agreed that transport will be given up to ratify the promises that the Prime Minister gave during the election as a deal for our European partners?
    Mr. Mitchell: I have to say to the hon. Gentleman, as I think he will know, that VAT is entirely a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that it would be improper for other Ministers to comment on that matter.
    Mr. Hind: Does my hon. Friend recognise that the level of fares in air transport is dependent upon efficient airports? What plans does he have for the future? Does he recognise that there is a real need to merge Manchester and Liverpool airports under one company, North-Western Airports plc, and privatise it?
    Mr. Mitchell: With great respect to my hon. Friend, I do not think that that supplementary arises on this question.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: How would fare levels — which are based on route capacity on any air routeing—
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    from Carlisle to STOLport be influenced by the developments over the past few days, when civil airline pilots have been surfacing to make statements about standards of air safety in east London? Will the Minister set up an inquiry and interview each of the pilots who has made a statement, but not a public statement, saying that—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The first part of the hon. Gentleman's question was legitimate, but the question is about transport systems, not air safety.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours rose—
    Mr. Speaker: The question is about public transport systems.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Exactly. We are talking about the Carlisle-STOLport potential routeing. May we have an inquiry into the statements that have been made by civil airlines pilots, which have not been drawn to the attention of the Department, and which the Civil Aviation Authority chooses to ignore?
    Mr. Speaker: That matter does not arise on this question.
    Mr. Hayes: My constituents do not object to paying more If they get a more efficient and better service. Is my hon. Friend aware that the 17.22 from Liverpool street to Harlow has never, ever, in its whole history, been on time? Does my hon. Friend agree that it is about time that that whole shambolic service was put into private hands?
    Mr. Mitchell: I am sorry to hear about the difficulties that my hon. Friend has with the train service. I shall draw his comments to the attention of the chairman of British Rail. In fairness, my hon. Friend ought to recognise that over much of Network SouthEast a substantial investment is in the pipeline, and until that investment comes through the improvements that we are seeking cannot be achieved. Ministers are wholly behind commuters in wanting to improve standards. That is why we have been so generous in improving investment.

    Weighbridges
    Mr. Jim Marshall: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many weighbridges are sited at United Kingdom ports.
    Mr. Channon: The Department has provided slow-speed axle weighers at 11 of the major roll-on/roll-off ferry ports.
    Mr. Marshall: I am grateful to the Minister for that useful information, but is he aware that many lorries entering the United Kingdom through ports are overloaded, and can he give a guarantee that, with the introduction of cabotage in 1992, the situation will not get substantially worse?
    Mr. Channon: This year we expect to weigh about 8,800 foreign lorries, which is over 50 per cent. more than last year. I accept the need to step up the level of weighing. If cabotage is to come in—I do not go quite as far as the hon. Member—I am determined to ensure that the rules are fair to the British as well as to everybody else.
    Mr. Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that ports such as Poole, which operate weighing apparatus, are at a commercial disadvantage compared with those that do

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    not have weighing apparatus because there is a tendency for drivers who know that they are overweight to avoid such ports? Is not the solution to have compulsory weighing of every vehicle entering the United Kingdom through a port?
    Mr. Channon: We certainly must move to weigh more lorries, to have better enforcement procedures and to provide more weighbridges. I understand the feelings of my hon. Friend's constituents about the disadvantage at which their port may be put when compared with others. We shall attempt to have more weighbridges than we have now.

    BR (Pacer Units)
    Mr. Pike: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if, when he next meets the chairman of British Rail, he will discuss the implications for the overall performance of British Rail of the operational record of the pacer units.
    Mr. David Mitchell: No, Sir. Problems with the performance of rolling stock are operational matters for British Rail.
    Mr. Pike: While what the Minister said may be true, should he not be concerned that at times some 50 per cent. of the pacer units have been out of action on the east Lancashire line, and will this not have implications for British Rail if it is not rectified?
    Mr. Mitchell: Of course I am concerned about this. It is a management matter for British Rail, which is tackling the matter. The principal cause of the problem is the gearboxes and British Rail is taking urgent action to deal with it, while seeking longer-term solutions.

    Overloaded Vehicles
    Mr. Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has information as to the proportion of overloaded vehicles which are stopped at their point of entry into the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Peter Bottomley: We target checking on vehicles likely to be overloaded.
    Last year about 24 per cent. of foreign vehicles checked were dealt with for overloading. The statistics do not distinguish between foreign vehicles checked at the ports and those checked inland.
    Mr. Flynn: Is it not important to check a larger proportion of vehicles, as a large percentage of vehicles are overloaded? We know the damage that those vehicles cause to our roads. The important test is not the total weight, but the weight on each axle. If there is overloading, or uncontrolled loading, the damage to our roads is very costly. Is there not an unanswerable case, which was not answered in the previous question, for increasing the surveillance of overloaded foreign lorries?
    Mr. Bottomley: The hon. Gentleman is correct. He will be glad to hear that we aim to weigh 50 per cent. more foreign lorries this year.
    Mr. Page: As one in four continental lorries are overweight when tested, when will my hon. Friend take steps to ensure that the weighbridge at Dover, which has been out of action for two years, is brought into use?
    Mr. Bottomley: As soon as I can, but I think my hon. Friend will accept that a high proportion of the lorries checked are overloaded, because the staff check more overloaded lorries than empty lorries.

    Disabled People
    Mr. Fearn: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to improve transport provision for people with disabilities.
    Mr. Peter Bottomley: The Department of Transport is working closely with the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee, transport providers and local authorities on a continuing programme of initiatives to improve transport for people with disabilities through research, information, promotion and education.
    Mr. Fearn: Is the Minister satisfied that facilities for the disabled are now correct on all deregulated routes? In other words, are the deregulated routes providing what we need?
    Mr. Bottomley: I am not satisfied, and that is why I spent Saturday with Sir Harry Secombe in Swansea launching a bus that had been converted at reasonably low cost to provide substantial additional benefits for the frail, the disabled and the elderly. The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that I was offered the part of second tenor in the Gwalia choir after we sang "We'll keep a welcome in the hillsides".

  ATTORNEY-GENERAL

    Family Court
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomley: To ask the Attorney-General whether the Lord Chancellor has any plans to introduce a family court.
    The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell): The idea of a family court embraces a number of concepts which are under study by the Lord Chancellor. The object is to improve the effective workings of the courts in the handling of family matters.
    Mrs. Bottomley: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that, with 160,000 divorces a year, involving 70,000 children, it is time to move on from our outdated and incoherent family court structures? Too often proceedings in court emphasise the adversarial aspects and exacerbate the difficulties of those involved. Clearly, it is time to put an end to drift and delay and to make a decision to move towards a coherent, integrated family court structure.
    The Solicitor-General: I have much sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. The opportunities for conciliation and reconciliation are among the aspects being studied, and the Government are anxious to improve the handling of all family business — especially cases concerning children.
    Mr. Corbett: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the time has come for more than sympathy? I was told in a written answer that for about £300 million we could make this system much better, in the interests of those who get involved in these difficult and emotionally charged situations. Will he give the House some sort of timetable and a clear commitment that this will be done?
    The Solicitor-General: The matter is under very active consideration by the Lord Chancellor. The hon.

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    Gentleman mentioned a figure that his own Government when in office regarded as wholly unrealistic. We are getting ahead and studying the position in the hope of coming forward fairly early with an answer.
    Mr. Sims: Will my hon. and learned Friend take into account the representations made by a wide range of bodies that support the idea of family courts? The representations included those from some who combined to form the family courts campaign. These bodies went to a lot of trouble to respond to the consultation document, since when nothing seems to have happened. When will we get some action?
    The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend points out that a number of bodies have made representations. They made a very diverse range of representations. The concept of the family court covers all those good ideas. It is for the Lord Chancellor, in company with colleagues, to decide which ideas to choose.

    Prosecutors (Guidelines)
    Mr. Allen: To ask the Atorney-General if he has any plans to change the guidelines to prosecutors arising from his experience in the Spycatcher case.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew): No, Sir.
    Mr. Allen: In view of the allegations in the book "Spycatcher" that the security services sought to undermine the democratically elected Government of this country, and as the book is still being pursued through the courts by the Attorney-General, will he now change his mind and allow the book to be published without further hindrance? Will he further investigate by public inquiry the security services, which are meant to defend our democracy and not to undermine it?
    The Attorney-General: No. The principle underlying the Government's litigation here and elsewhere is very well understood in Britain. It is that those who have served in the security services owe a lifelong duty of confidentiality to the Crown. That must be maintained, and that is why the Government are bringing this litigation.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Is not one of the lessons to be learnt from the "Spycatcher" cases the need to revise the conditions of service of members of MI5 in order to emphasise to them that the duty of confidentiality is a lifelong duty and to discourage them from any thought that they might be serving the public interest by breaching that duty?
    The Attorney-General: I note what my hon. Friend said about the importance of conditions of service, and I shall see that that point is brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. However, it is well understood that this duty of confidentiality is lifelong and that this is absolutely inherent in the obligations of those who serve the Crown in that service.
    Mr. Alex Carlile: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that decisions such as those made in the "Spycatcher" case in Australia have damaged the very principle of confidentiality that he seeks to establish? Does he further agree that his decisions and those of his predecessor in the "Spycatcher" case have made the British common law system the laughing stock of the common law world?
    The Attorney-General: I am suspicious of those who claim to know what has made and what may not make something the laughing stock of something else. However, it is perfectly clear that the British Government have made abundantly plain throughout the world the importance that they attach to the obligation that I described. As the matter is still under appeal in Australia, I will not, I am afraid, yield to the temptation to comment on the remainder of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question.
    Mr. Aitken: We all agree with the Government's tactics—[Interruption.] I am sorry; that was a slip of the tongue. We all agree with the Government's principle, but my hon. and learned Friend makes it sound as though the tactics are perfect. If my right hon. and learned Friend is interested in avoiding a repetition of the expensive grand opera of legal folly that has characterised the "Spycatcher" case so far, does he agree that the time has come to issue new guidelines, not just to humble prosecutors, as was suggested in the question, but to future Treasury Solicitors, Law Officers, Cabinet Secretaries and perhaps even higher personages? Perhaps the guidelines should be published in a book, then banned and turned into a best seller, but we certainly need a change.
    The Attorney-General: The line between tactics and strategy is notoriously difficult to define. Perhaps my hon. Friend will recall what I told the House three weeks ago. With regard to section 2, which remains in force, work has been in hand for some time on devising provisions which would be an effective, enforceable and reasonable alternative. That task is not without difficulty. My hon. Friend knows that in 1979 the Government introduced their Protection of Official Information Bill. That was found to be unacceptable, but work is in hand.
    Mr. Fraser: If there has been a serious impropriety in the Government service, or even a serious breach of constitutional principles, at what point is a civil servant entitled to stop biting his lip and blow the whistle without fear of prosecution?
    The Attorney-General: It is well understood that there are procedures within the Civil Service for drawing attention to perceived improprieties. Each case turns upon its own circumstances, as the hon. Gentleman will be the first to recognise. That must be the only general answer capable of being given to a general question.

    Director of Public Prosecutions
    Mr. Janner: To ask the Attorney-General when he last met the Director of Public Prosecutions; and what subjects were discussed.
    The Attorney-General: I last met the director on Monday 23 November. We discussed matters relating to the Crown Prosecution Service.
    Mr. Janner: Did the right hon. and learned Gentleman discuss that evil and offensive emanation known as "Holocaust News"? Does he know of the alleged decision not to prosecute those who have perpetrated it? Will he repeat the undertaking given to the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Latham) and myself by his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, namely, that if we produce counsel's opinion to say that the case of "Holocaust News" is covered by the Public Order Act, he and his colleagues will reconsider their previous view,

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    stated in a written answer last week that this publication is a lawful expression of opinion? If it is a lawful expression of opinion—which I venture to doubt—surely the law is an ass and an idiot.
    The Attorney-General: I agree with the adjectives that the hon. and learned Gentleman applies to the publication. I am also aware of the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions not to institute criminal proceedings under the Public Order Act. I happen to agree with that decision because I do not believe that the fact that the publication is evil and offensive meets the test that part III of that Act lays down for an offence. Of course, if counsel's opinion is produced to me or the Director of Public Prosecutions we shall view it with an open mind, but I must emphasise that prosecuting decisions under the Act ultimately rest with me.
    Mr. Gow: Has my right hon. and learned Friend explained to the director the very grave disquiet on both sides of the House about what appeared to be defective formalities in the issue of extradition warrants for those living in the Republic who are required for trial in this country? Will my right hon. and learned Friend give us an assurance that all that can be done to ensure that the formalities are in order will be done?
    The Attorney-General: The answer is yes to the last part of the question. A detailed review of the arrangements was set in hand by my predecessor for the formulation of warrants for sending down to the South. In the recent case of Kane, it is only fair to point out that it was 10 o'clock in the morning on the relevant day last week when the Crown solicitor was first informed that Kane had been arrested in the South. It was 11.45 in the morning when he was told that he had until 1 o'clock in the afternoon to issue a warrant. If that matter has prompted my hon. Friend's question, it is only fair that that should be made clear. Incidentally, there has been no criticism of the warrant received by the Garda in that case.

  OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

    Bangladesh
    Mr. Hayward: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he plans to increase the level of British assistance to Bangladesh.
    The Minister for Overseas Development (Mr. Chris Patten): During my recent visit to Bangladesh I announced a major new commitment of commodity aid, and also further commitments of food aid and flood rehabilitation assistance. Overall, our aid expenditure to Bangladesh this year is expected to exceed last year's level.
    Mr. Hayward: On my hon. Friend's answer in relation to flood rehabilitation, will he say how much of the increased aid is likely to go towards providing improved housing in Bangladesh, which has been severely damaged by the floods?
    Mr. Patten: Some of the extra assistance that we have provided will, I hope, go towards low-cost housing schemes through non-governmental organisations. I should like to see more projects suggested by NGOs in that area, which we could assist through our joint funding scheme. I believe that the Government of Bangladesh would welcome that as well.
    Mr. Shore: I welcome the Minister's announcement on further aid for Bangladesh. However, is he satisfied that in that tormented country the funds and other commodity aid that he mentioned are reaching the people who really need it and are not being diverted by the military for partisan political ends?
    Mr. Patten: I understand the right hon. Gentleman's concern. I am satisfied that our aid programme is providing effective help to the poor people in Bangladesh, who deserve every bit of assistance that we can provide for them.

    Sub-Saharan Africa
    Mr. Bowis: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether any new initiatives are planned by the European Community to assist the poor countries of sub-Saharan Africa.
    Mr. Chris Patten: The European Community Development Council on 9 November agreed on new measures to aid poor countries in sub-Saharan Africa that are both heavily indebted and pursuing policies that will allow the aid to be effective. These include a new £70 million programme of grants to finance vital imports; and the faster, better targeted, use of existing funds.
    Mr. Bowis: I welcome the statement made on behalf of the European Community Development Council and its action and, more important, the people of sub-Saharan Africa will welcome it. Is there more that can be done to build on the debt initiative of our right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to support the World Bank in providing its support for the peoples of that part of Africa?
    Mr. Patten: We want to see further progress made towards implementing the whole of the Chancellor's debt initiative. As my hon. Friend will doubtless know, there is a meeting later this week in Paris called by the World Bank to consider the co-financing of structural adjustment programmes in Africa. We shall be represented at that meeting and I expect us to make a substantial new pledge of assistance.
    Mr. Butler: Why are the European taxpayer and the United Kingdom taxpayer shelling out money to Marxist regimes dedicated to the overthrow of the system that is funding them in this way?
    Mr. Patten: I should like to make a distinction between humanitarian assistance, to which one should not tie any conditions, and long-term development assistance. On the latter, I remain determined that we should help effective policies and not ineffective ones.

    Ethiopia
    Mr. Barron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what emergency appeals Her Majesty's Government have received from United Nations agencies in response to the current drought and risk of famine in Ethiopia.
    Mr. Chris Patten: On 13 November an emergency appeal was issued by the office of the United Nations Disaster Relief Co-ordinator for assistance with an emergency food airlift in Ethiopia. On 17 November I announced in response that Britain would provide £2

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    million to help support the airlift, with any unspent balance to be used for other urgent famine needs. An appeal for emergency relief supplies has also been issued by the United Nations Children's Fund.
    Mr. Barron: Will the Government respond positively to the appeal by the United Nations Children's Fund in view of the fact that the aim is not just to provide food but is primarily to give assistance and care to the malnourished children in Ethiopia? What will be the Government's response to that important appeal?
    Mr. Patten: We shall consider in due course our response to that appeal and to another appeal that is being made this week. So far we have provided over £23 million this year in assistance towards Ethiopia. We have been in the van of efforts by the donor community to help that poor country.
    Mr. Baldry: Since Tigrean rebels are holding up relief convoys and the Ethiopian Government are spending 75 per cent. of the nation's wealth on prosecuting civil wars, is it not time that the international community, in the shape of the General Assembly of the United Nations, started to apply pressure on Ethiopia to resolve its internal armed disputes and to negotiate with the various rebel groups? Unless less is spent on arms, more will not be able to be spent on food.
    Mr. Patten: There is a great deal in what my hon. Friend has said. The Secretary-General of the United Nations has appealed to the Ethiopian Government and, more particularly, to the Eritrean People's Liberation Front to try to ensure the free movement of food within Ethiopia. I think, without sounding complacent, that the House should know that the problem does not appear to be that of moving food to Ethiopia; it is that of moving food around within Ethiopia. Although the airlift, which has started, will be of considerable assistance, it is vital that trucks should be able to move around the country and that more trucks are moved from the south to the north to help.
    Miss Lestor: I acknowledge the Government's contribution to the relief of some of the problems in Ethiopia. In relation to the UNICEF appeal, does the Minister agree that time is of the essence and that the children who are dying for want of food, water, and so on, cannot wait long? Will he consider the importance of this appeal as a matter of urgency? I acknowledge that there is a great problem in Ethiopia over the internal movement of any supplies that the Hercules or other aeroplanes might fly to that country. Bearing in mind the problems, has the hon. Gentleman considered repeating the 1985 Bushel operation, which was welcomed by many people in this country and abroad and which made such a big contribution in reaching the distressed areas within a short period?
    Mr. Patten: It is precisely because of our concern for the starving in Ethiopia that we have committed, so far, £23 million this year for humanitarian purposes. Perhaps I can explain the exact position on the airlifts. The International Committee of the Red Cross airlift began today with the Hercules. The Caritas airlift should begin with the arrival of the Hercules on Wednesday in Addis Ababa, and a further Hercules a week or 10 days later. The United Nations Disaster Relief Organisation airlift will start as soon as the Ethiopian Government give permission to the United Nations to use another Hercules. The United Nations co-ordinator on the spot believes that four Hercules, and perhaps a fifth in January, should be sufficient. But, of course, the situation is being kept under review. We are in daily contact with the United Nations in Addis Ababa and, if we are requested to provide assistance with the Royal Air Force, we shall consider that as a matter of urgency.
    Mr. Devlin: Is my hon. Friend aware that his announcement will be warmly welcomed by my constituents, many of whom have written to me requesting that the RAF be used to provide the sort of valiant help that it did two years ago?
    Mr. Patten: I want to ensure that we provide the help that is both asked for and required. I do not think that: we should bypass the efforts of the United Nations co-ordinator and the ICRC on the spot. I am sure that the whole House would wish to urge both the Ethopian Government and the EPLF to do everything in their power to ensure that the food gets through to the people who are starving.

    Emergency Relief
    Mr. Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what provision for emergency relief is planned in the aid budget for 1988.
    Mr. Chris Patten: Provision will be sought for disaster relief and food aid in the 1988–89 Supply Estimates.
    Mr. Clarke: Does the Minister accept that, apart from the importance of increasing the figure — which has decreased since 1985–86—he should take on board the views of the Select Committee, which strongly recommended that global development funds should not be raided, as the Committee put it? In other words, the world's poor should not be asked to feed the world's poor.
    Mr. Patten: The Select Committee is wise, but not perfect. We can help with disaster relief either from the general contingency reserve or, as we do currently, from within our contingency reserve. I think that the latter gives us more flexibility to operate as we are now doing and as our predecessors did.

Rate Support Grant (England)
3.31 pm
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the rate support grant report for 1988–89, which I have today laid before the House
I announced to the House in July my proposals for the aggregates of local authority expenditure and grant for 1988–9. Subsequently, in October, I issued a consultation paper to local government containing details of all my proposals for next year's rate support grant settlement. The main elements of those proposals were that local authority current expenditure provision should be set at £27·38 billion, a 7 per cent. increase on the amount provided for 1987–88, allowing non-rate capped authorities to hold their spending broadly steady in real terms; that there should once again be a margin between the total of grant-related expenditure and expenditure provision to reflect my view that authorities continue to spend more than they need; that aggregate exchequer grant should be £13·775 billion, a cash increase of £750 million or 5·75 per cent. on 1987–88, holding grant at 46·2 per cent. of relevant expenditure; that there should be no major changes in the mechanisms of grant distribution and only limited changes to the methology for assessing needs; and, finally, that there should be a safety net equivalent to 5p at ratepayer level to prevent certain year-on-year grant losses and a cap of 10p at authority level to limit grant gains.
I have received comments on my proposals from the local authority associations and about 175 local authorities. There has been a widespread welcome for the stability proposed in the mechanisms for distributing grant and the methodology for calculating grant-related expenditure. Inevitably, I did not please everybody. There has been criticism of some aspects, especially the provision for expenditure, and of the effect of the proposals on certain authorities.
I have considered all the comments very carefully, and believe that my proposals strike the right balance, subject to some minor changes of data. Accordingly, I have laid the report today
Within the existing rate support grant system, I believe that the settlement provides realistically for expenditure while making it clear that the Government are not prepared to underwrite high spending and high wage increases. It includes a generous cash increase in the taxpayer's contribution to the running of local services. As I have already indicated, it maintains as much stability as possible in this, the penultimate year of the present system.
In reaching my decisions, I have had especially in mind the effect of my proposals for ratepayers. The settlement means that rate bills need, on average, to increase by no more than the rate of inflation, but I must stress that there can be significant variations around the average. Clearly, the actual level of rates will depend on the budgets of each individual local authority. I hope, however, that authorities will take advantage of the many opportunities open to them to increase efficiency and make savings so as to keep rates down.
I will be making a separate announcement on rate limits and on the expenditure levels of those authorities that have sought redetermination next month.
Mr. Jeff Rooker: May I first apologise, on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham), for his absence today, due to an accident.
We welcome the Secretary of State's statement. Its brevity belies the damage that this statement and its predecessors have done to local government finances. I want first to ask the Secretary of State if it is a correct assumption that for local authorities to maintain the current level of services in the next financial year they would have to find another £1·4 billion but that, if they did so, the Government grant would be reduced by no less than £600 million. Is this not the Government again forcing up rates as they have managed to do for the average ratepayer in England to the tune of £4·91 a week, compared with 1978–79, as a result of Government changes in various grants? Of course, the Secretary of State has to accept that the rate bills do not solely depend upon the spending decisions of local authorities.
The Secretary of State said that he had struck the right balance and that his statement gave stability, but that is after years of damage to the financial structure of local government. It is all very well for him to say that we are going to be stable now; he should instead be starting to undo some of the damage.
Regarding the distribution of rate support grant in respect of the so-called safety nets and the caps, will the local authorities which are losing and gaining do so on the same basis? The money figures are not the same, and it is not clear from the Secretary of State's statement whether the same formula is used for the safety net as for the grant losses. Are they treated on the same basis for both losing and gaining?
What has the Secretary of State allowed in the 1988–89 figures for the poll tax start-up costs? This is a matter on which he has received representations from both my hon. Friends in local government and his hon. Friends in the Conversative party.
Given that from April 1988 there will no longer be 100 per cent. rate rebates and that even the very poorest people, those on the means test, will pay 20 per cent. of the rates, where is the promised income support?
Is any money allowed in this 1988–89 settlement for the consequences of the storm damage on 15–16 October? It is quite clear that in 1987–88 the Treasury will make a profit on that storm damage and its financial consequences to local government. Is there anything set aside for next year?
As the Secretary of State will be making another statement, I will not go into his last point, rate capping, as that is probably inappropriate today. But given that he has promised another statement, could he see whether in it he will, after today's settlement, say why he cannot state the ground rules for rate capping before budgets are set in early 1988 for the year 1989–90? It is quite clear that, if this is the penultimate year, before they set their budgets the local authorities ought to know the ground rules for rate capping rather than being presented with changes in the rules towards the end of the year.
The Secretary of State said in July that the new system would be easier to understand, but will he confirm that, even if the poll tax comes into force on the date and in the form planned, there will still be all the trappings of the rates system—safety nets, grant-related expenditure, poll

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tax capping, and so on — and that ail the evidence suggests that the new system will be just as complex as the present one?
Mr. Ridley: I am sure that the whole House wishes the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) a full and speedy recovery. Meanwhile, we are delighted to see the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) taking his place.
The hon. Member for Perry Barr asked whether the settlement would allow local authorities to finance the same level of services. The provision at settlement is 7·1 per cent. higher than last year and the grant is 5·8 per cent. higher than last year's gross grant. We do not yet know what the loss of grant will be, but the current estimate is £265 million. Taking that aspect out of the equation, both increases are very generous and should enable local authorities to maintain current levels. Indeed, I fear that it will allow them to increase the levels slightly, as the increases are well above the rate of inflation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Fear?"]
The hon. Member returned to a false point about the effect on local authority finances of the changes that the Government have made in the eight years since we came to office. Under the last labour settlement, for 1979–80, the AEG cash grant was £8,101 million. Updated to 1988–89 prices, that would be £14,691 million, compared with the grant that I am providing of £13,775 million. That represents a cut of £916 million, which is not the figure usually bandied about by the Opposition. I am happy to have the opportunity to put the true figure on record.
In relation to nets and caps, I said in my statement that the safety net would be equivalent to 5p at ratepayer level and the cap to 10p at authority level. I hope that that answers the hon. Gentleman's point. The increase in provision and grant includes sufficient to cover any costs that may be incurred in starting to compile the community charge register next year. Income support is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, who I believe has already suggested levels by which income support will be increased to cover the 20 per cent. share of rate bills that people will be asked to find.
With regard to storm damage, we still have not had information from local authorities as to the costs that they might wish to capitalise and for which they would seek additional capital allocations. Until I have that information, it is impossible to estimate what the effects will be. It is, of course, always possible to adjust for these matters in the rate support grant if that is what we decide to do, but without the figures it is clearly hopeless.
As for rate capping, I simply abide by the statute, which sets me the task of setting out criteria for each year. In passing, I think that the hon. Member for Perry Barr would acknowledge that, if I set out the criteria in advance, there would be a marvellous opportunity for people to find ways of getting round them. That is not the purpose of the operation.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that there will be a debate on this later. We have a heavy day before us. I will allow questions to continue until 4.15 pm, but then we must move on.
Sir Ian Lloyd: It would appear that, after making due allowance for the arcane complexities of rate
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support grant and accounting, which my right hon. Friend understands far better than most, he has announced an increase of money in real terms and, possibly, as a percentage of GNP. Therefore, how does he propose to deal with what will undoubtedly be a furtherance of the sedulously cultivated myth that that represents a cut in public expenditure?
Mr. Ridley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am bedinning to learn what a "cut" means in Labour language. It means that if one asks for expenditure on a programme to be doubled and it is increased by only 50 per cent., that is regarded as a cut of 50 per cent.
Mr. Simon Hughes: Is it correct that there is a difference of 3 per cent. between the grant-related expenditure assessment figure for shire counties and their expenditure assumption, which was the point that they made to the Secretary of State by letter following a meeting with the Minister for Local Government and that there will therefore be a shortfall of about £2 billion to keep services at a standstill? Most importantly, is it correct that there has still not been a change in the GREA for calculating the needs of the homeless and that the Secretary of State's slip of the tongue in referring to "mythology" rather than "methodology", is the appropriate description because councils will not have the money to cater for the rising tide of homeless people who present themselves, under the law, at their doors?
Mr. Ridley: I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the unallocated margin as between GREs and the total at settlement. That does not mean that the money is not forthcoming, but simply that it is not allocated to any particular service. It slightly affects the distribution between different classes of authority. At the request of the associations, we have made the minimum changes to GREAs that are acceptable, and that has been welcomed by the associations.
Sir George Young: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement that he is not prepared to underwrite high spending will be warmly welcomed by Conservative Members? Is he also aware that several authorities that have been rate-capped have not appealed against his limits, but have made it clear that they will not reduce their expenditure to the level that he suggested? Does not that imply that there are still some loopholes by which such authorities can evade the controls, by borrowing and building up further debts? Does my right hon. Friend have any plans to try to block such loopholes?
Mr. Ridley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is right to say that the settlement should discourage high spending. In fact, only two of the authorities that I originally suggested for rate limitation have applied for redetermination. As I have said, we shall announce our decision on that before Christmas. However, I have no evidence that the authorities that are subject to rate limitation are planning to get round that by spending up through other forms of raising money—whatever they may be. From the newspapers, which are my main source of information on what various authorities are doing, the impression seems to be that such authorities realise that the "party is over", if I may coin a phrase
Mr. John Fraser: Is the Secretary of State aware of the effect of rate capping on boroughs that will

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not apply, for good reasons, for redetermination? Is he aware that the growth of homelessness and child abuse, and the velocity of claims for housing benefit mean that some local authorities, such as Lambeth, find it difficult to keep services going? Despite the fact that no application has been made for redetermination, will the Secretary of State consider the real problems of such boroughs, with a view to lessening the controls that at present he intends to place on them?
Mr. Ridley: Yes, but what is curious about this is that some authorities with problems quite as great as the ones to which the hon. Gentleman has referred seem able to manage to provide a good service and to cope well, but with much lower expenditure. As well as the factors that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, there is clearly, therefore, the factor of inefficiency. At this stage, it would be wrong for me to pre-empt my statement on rate limitation, about which I shall make an announcement in due course.
Mr. Robin Squire: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is great concern in the London borough of Havering because the draft figures show that the cash settlement for 1988–89 would be no higher than that for the current year? Given that Havering has been a low-spending borough for many years, will my right hon. Friend explain, unless the figures have now changed, how we are expected to meet the inevitable increase in staff costs?
Mr. Ridley: In previous incarnations, my hon. Friend has been too close to the Department of the Environment not to know that the rate support grant formula operates on the basis of rateable values and needs as expressed through GREAs. The result of applying those formulae, which I must do by law, is that, under the settlement assumptions, the London borough of Havering has precious little change in the amount of grant which it receives. Some authorities are much less fortunate in that they lose grant because of the operation of the high rateable value element of the formula. I look forward to joining my hon. Friend in the Aye Lobby when the time comes to sweep away this silly system and to return to a much more sensible system based on the community charge. I am sure that we shall rejoice.
Miss Marjorie Mowlam: Could the Minister please clarify and reconsider his position on grant-capped authorities? Now only five authorities are grant-capped, one of which is Cleveland county council. That places it in a difficult position, because it means that next year there will be an additional £3·4 million on the rates although the authority is already in receipt of inner-area funding and urban-programme funding and has a large percentage of unemployed people. That strikes us as irrational, and we should like the Minister to clarify it.
Mr. Ridley: If Cleveland spends at the settlement assumptions, its grant will be increased from £91 million to £111 million, which is an increase of nearly £20 million. It will be enabled to keep its rates to an increase of about 1 ·4 per cent., which is well below the rate of inflation. I can think of many boroughs, counties and districts, such as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire), which would be only too delighted to have such
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a result. It shows how the formula works in favour of authorities with high needs, and this is hardly the moment to complain about it.
Mr. Timothy Raison: Will my right hon. Friend say whether, under the new rate support grant, he will do anything about the unfairness suffered by counties such as Buckinghamshire, which have a rapid rate of population growth and whose rate support grant figures have lagged behind their population figures?
Mr. Ridley: I have great sympathy with my right hon. Friend. He will know that the reason for that is the increasing rateable value in counties such as Buckinghamshire. I notice, for example, that this year it will receive an increase in grant because of the operation of safety nets and caps. That has probably made it possible for my right hon. Friend to have a much lower rate increase in his county than would otherwise be the case. However, the unfairness is recognised; that is one reason why I look forward to my right hon. Friend joining me in the Lobby later this month to sweep the whole system away.
Mr. Max Madden: Will the Secretary of State understand that there is great anger in Bradford over the fact that, since 1979, the city has been robbed of more than £70 million in rate support grant? Will he understand that Bradford is penalised for trying to meet the needs of an increasing population and that we face the prospect of being poleaxed by the poll tax? Will he understand that there will be great disappointment that he and the Minister of State declined to meet a parliamentary delegation and representatives of Bradford council to discuss these matters, on the excuse that the deadline for consultation was over, although that was not communicated to us until at least eight days after the deadline for consultation?
Mr. Ridley: All consultation periods must come to an end and an end means that they have come to an end. I notice that, if Bradford spends at the settlement assumption, it is likely to have a grant increase from £137 million to £154 million, which is more than £16 million. I find it extraordinary that the hon. Gentleman dares to come and complain about that when many authorities will lose grant. The authorities of many of my hon. Friends are losing grant left, right and centre for the hon. Gentleman's benefit. Far from a word of thanks or gratitude, we have many words of gripe.
Mr. Hal Miller: Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that the Conservative council of Hereford and Worcester has always kept its spending below GRE, below target and below the increase in inflation? However, owing to tinkering again this year with the support grant mechanism in respect of highways—as with last year, in respect of the civilianisation of the police — the result of that Conservative council following Government policies is that it has now been docked another £6 million of grant although its highway expenditure is only up to 75 per cent. of the 1973 level.
Mr. Ridley: I must slightly disagree with my hon. Friend about the figures. Hereford and Worcester stands to gain £2 million more grant if it spends to settlement assumption. Therefore, I do not believe that the figure of £6 million is quite right, unless that council is planning a spending spree about which neither he nor I have heard.

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I believe that that is extremely unlikely. That extra £2 miilion will enable Hereford and Worcester to increase its rates by just under the rate of inflation and no more. That is not a bad result from the point of view of that council. I must say that the figures are not figures that I carefully work out for each authority. The figures come out of the formula that is enshrined in the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980. There is no way in which we can get rid of such results unless we have a new system altogether.
Mr. Peter Shore: The Minister will know that Tower Hamlets has over 1,000 homeless families in bed-and-breakfast accommodation at a cost of more than £20 million a year. What provision has he been able to make in this year's rate support grant to ease the enormous problem of that particular borough?
Mr. Ridley: I am happy to say that, if that borough does not increase its spending above the settlement assumption, it will be able to drop its rate. Of course, Tower Hamlets may prefer to go about it the other way. However, that is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Ian Gow: Will my right hon. Friend add to his reputation as a scholar of English and of the economy by confirming that neither his Department nor the Treasury will make a profit from East Sussex county council because of the storm damage on the night of 15 October?
Mr. Ridley: I would be horrified and astonished if either my Department or the Treasury were to make a profit from any authority as a result of that night. However, I must see the figures so that we can understand why it is that people are not aware that the expenditure that was incurred as a result of that storm either falls within the Bellwin rules or is subject to charging to capital account, in which case an authority will receive capital allocations, provided that it had not insured. I can think of very little expenditure that will not fall into either of those categories. I should be happy to show my hon. Friend figures that would convince him that, if that is the case —as I believe it should be—the Treasury, rather than East Sussex county council, will be the poorer.
Ms. Hilary Armstrong: Is the Minister prepared to make any provisions for those authorities, such as many of the authorities that I represent, which are not high spenders, which have measured needs — as the right hon. Gentleman has acknowledged—which are as great as in inner-city areas, but which themselves are not inner cities? As a result, those authorities have lost any special funding such as urban aid funding. Their needs are the same, but the amount of money that they are allowed by the Government is much less. How, then, are those authorities to meet the needs that he has acknowledged, but keep within the spending limits that he has determined?
Mr. Ridley: The hon. Lady has had the good luck not to go through this exercise quite so often as some of us. I must convince her that the figures that come out for each authority result from the global decisions that I announced in July and that I do not, as it were, target a certain amount of money according to what I think about an authority's claims. The hon. Lady will be aware that the north of England is the main beneficiary of the present system. For instance, Durham county stands to gain £6·6
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million of extra grant simply because its needs are taken into account in the GRE formula. I do not believe that the hon. Lady can sustain the view that her part of the world is damaged by this settlement.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, when GRE was first introduced, my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) said triumphantly that no longer would the sins of the high spenders be visited on the low spenders? Yet by adhering to regression analysis—that horrible phrase — as a basis for deciding the weighting of the GRE elements, it continues to be the case that those who are historically low spenders are punished for so being compared with the high spenders. Is it not time, even while this system remains with us, to do the opposite?
Mr. Ridley: I must tell my hon. Friend that it is not the GRE which results in what he calls the punishment for low spenders; it is the fact that their rateable value increases. That is included in the 1980 Act, where there is no power to vary it. That element of the formula causes the problem which my hon. Friend identified, and I have every sympathy with him. We must go to an entirely new system to get that element of resource equalisation out of the system or my hon. Friend's complaint will be valid for as long as we stick with the present system.
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Secretary of State address his mind to the effect of Government spending cuts on the housing crisis in London? Is he aware that local authorities are forced to spend millions of pounds every year on bed-and-breakfast accommodation for the homeless and that they are denied the possibility of building or buying large numbers of new houses? In the process, are we not creating a generation of unhealthy children growing up in appalling conditions in bed-and-breakfast accommodation and creating a generation of millionaires living off bed-and-breakfast money from those hotels because central Government place such tight restrictions on local government that it cannot build to alleviate the crisis? Will he reconsider the position and ensure that London authorities have enough money to provide housing to meet the needs of the people as per the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977?
Mr. Ridley: First, we are talking about rate support grant, not capital allocations for local authorities. Secondly, local authorities are not the only organisations which can build houses or convert them for the homeless. Thirdly, I invite the hon. Gentleman to linger a while— perhaps as late as midnight—so that he can be in the Lobby with us to make sure that the Housing Bill has unanimous support. That Bill is designed to bring into use much more empty accommodation, public and private, and to stimulate the private sector and housing associations to build much more housing for all classes of people in need of homes.
The hon. Gentleman might like to know that, this morning, I announced that an extra £25 million should be made available for local authorities and others to provide immediate relief to the problems of those without homes. I look forward to the hon. Gentleman putting his vote where his voice is and supporting the Housing Bill.
Sir Peter Hordern: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the local authorities such as West Sussex which have had to spend much money repairing the

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ravages of the storm will not have that expenditure counted against them in respect of cash expenditure or borrowing when it comes to the rate support grant settlement?
Mr. Ridley: My hon. Friend was kind enough to discuss this with me, and I believe that he understands the position. Expenditure as a result of the storm may fall within the Bellwin rules, under which expenditure above the threshold will not result in an authority losing rate support grant and will attract a 75 per cent. grant from the Government. If the expenditure falls into the capital account, we shall try to make available some capital allocation. Until we get the figures from local authorities, it will be impossible to forecast the effect that it will have on next year's spending through the interest on that capital. When I receive the information, I shall reach a conclusion on that.
Mr. Ken Eastham: Is it not true that, for years, the Department has consistently deprived local authorities of adequate funding? The Minister fooled no one with his statement today. Is it not true that many authorities are not meeting their statutory obligations to provide social services, housing and local authority grants? If some organisations took local authorities to court for breaking the law, who would go in the dock — local councillors or the Secretary of State?
Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. Local authorities have increased expenditure by about 1·5 per cent. a year in real terms throughout the period of this Government. It is not true to say that they do not have enough money to discharge their responsibilities. Indeed, we are seeking ways to help them to save money so that they need not make such large demands on their ratepayers, and the current Local Government Bill will contribute to that effort.
Mr. David Madel: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that what he has proposed by way of safety nets will be of the same potential help as the measures that he announced 12 months ago to counties such as Bedfordshire, which would have benefited had not the ruling Labour and Liberal group gone on a big spending spree and pushed up rates by 23 per cent.?
Mr. Ridley: The safety nets, like the caps on grant gains, are designed to stop too violent a change in authorities' grant entitlements and to give them time to adjust to the volatile form of grant which arises from the current system. I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that, if Bedfordshire meets its settlement spending assumption, it will receive nearly £3 million more in grant, which should enable the county to keep the rate down to about 1·5 to 2 per cent., depending on its budget. The results depend entirely upon what the county council decides to spend.
Mr. Jim Cousins: Will the Minister close the black hole in the existing grants system which means that, in the case of rate-capped authorities, expenditure which is recognised for the purposes of the rate limit and the expenditure limit is still subject to grant penalty withdrawals at a rate greater than 2p in the pound? Does he recognise that, in Newcastle, closing the black hole would not relax the authority's expenditure disciplines, which are targeted — as they
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must be—upon the very old and the young, but would enable ratepayers to have a rate cut of more than 25 per cent?
Mr. Ridley: I cannot confirm the hon. Gentleman's figures, but one effect of rate capping is, one hopes, to limit the expenditure of the authority, with the result that it obtains more grant because it does not forfeit grant. If Newcastle spent at its settlement assumption, it would be likely to receive nearly £14 million more in grant, which is a major contribution. We shall be richly rewarded if it succeeds in stopping Newcastle being one of the highest rating authorities north of Watford.
Mr. Barry Field: My right hon. Friend's Department will be aware that, because of an omission by the Treasury valuer, the Treasury did not apply to have the unused prison block and prison officer dwellings on the island reduced for rating purposes. The Department's solution was that we should re-rate empty Government properties. But I have discovered that estimates have been outstanding since 1984–85. My right hon. Friend will appreciate that Government property which is re-rated by the Treasury is normally adjusted in the following year's rate support grant, but, because this goes back for several years and because it is a Treasury omission, that will be impossible. It represents £2 per head of the population in the Isle of Wight. Will the Department give us some assistance in this matter?
Mr. Ridley: I am afraid that I must tell my hon. Friend that I am not aware of that complicated position in the Isle of Wight. I will write him a full response when I have made sure of my facts.
Mr. Tony Lloyd: Would the Secretary of State at least concede that the description of the whole process as a battle between the low and high spenders— as some of his hon. Friends have put it — is wholly misleading? The real battle is between those traditionally low-spending authorities that want to improve services, and cannot under this Government, and those such as Manchester, which have provided good services and which are now having to pauperise some of the poorest people in Britain.
Mr. Ridley: I would not agree with the hon. Gentleman. Two factors are at work: first, the automatic operation of the rate support grant formula, based on the rateable value and the GREs expressing needs. Secondly, there are the authorities' decisions about what they are going to spend. In theory—I know it is not precise—if every authority spent according to its needs as measured by GREs there would be no difference in rates throughout the whole land, because all authorities would charge the same rates. That is what the present system is designed to achieve.
If rates are high in Manchester—I confirm that they are—the hon. Gentleman has only his own council to blame for spending well over its needs.
Mr. Eric Forth (Mid-Worcestershire): My right hon. Friend will be well aware that my two excellent, responsible local authorities — Hereford and Worcester county council and Wychavon district council — have suffered yet again as a result of their responsible attitude over many years.
Further to what he said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Miller), will my right hon. Friend give an absolute assurance to my hon. Friend, my

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local authorities and me that the absurdities and anomalies in the present system will be eliminated and not carried over when I vote with enthusiasm for his new proposals on local government finance? Will he assure me that these nonsenses will not be continued, because that is the assurance that my local authorities need?
Mr. Ridley: I give my hon. Friend that assurance wholeheartedly. There will be no resource equalisation or grant forfeit under the new system. The needs of each authority will be defined under the new system; each will receive the appropriate grant, and that will be the end of the story.
Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree that certain parts of the country have greater needs than others? Will he accept that, in a city such as Liverpool, which has lost between £500 million and £600 million in rate support grant since the Government came to power, the needs of the people are great? Is it not ridiculous that the right hon. Gentleman should continue rate capping for that city, and meet it and arrange to have discussions without talking about the whole issue of redetermination?
Mr. Ridley: The needs of Liverpool and every other city and district in the country are assessed in the GREAs. [AN HON. MEMBER: "They are not."] They are, and that is why grant flows. Almost a further £10 million is likely to flow to Liverpool because its needs are recognised. One cannot have a recognition of needs in GREAs, and then say that those needs have not been recognised. That is where the hon. Gentleman is wrong. Rate capping has been of great help to some cities, and will be to Liverpool, because, if they were allowed unrestrainedly to put up their rates, the damage that would be done in terms of lost jobs, industry and income would be simply appalling. So there is everything to be said for it. Liverpool city council has not applied for redetermination, so how could I possibly have considered it?
Mr. Patrick Thompson: Bearing in mind that I, like many of my hon. Friends, cannot wait to join my right hon. Friend in the Lobby finally to sweep away this complicated system, and that the aim, which I fully support, is to curb the high spenders, will my right hon. Friend help me get across to the low-spending Broadland district council a solution to the problem that it feels that it has been unfairly treated and penalised for low spending time and time again? Somehow, there is a problem; will he examine the comparison between Broadland district council and Norwich city council, both of which are in my constituency? That comparison has caused great puzzlement, and I should like further enlightenment about it.
Mr. Ridley: I agree that these things are hard to understand, because they are the product of a formula rather than any rational or logical judgment. That is why they had better be swept away.
Although there has been a loss of grant to Broadland district council, the effect at ratepayer level, when the grant to the county is taken into account, is not great and
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not much above the likely rate of inflation — if the council spends at the settlement assumption. I hope that my hon. Friend will convey to his district council the fact that it is probably something to do with its rateable value or low needs that causes the council to believe that, in some way, it is being singled out for adverse treatment. In fact, it is due to the formula on which we are operating, and which is outwith of the control of Ministers. The only solution is to start with a new system.
Mr. Rooker: We shall want more information about the apparent £25 million of new money for the homeless about which the right hon. Gentleman spoke. There will be a chance for that later.
In response to his hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Forth), the Secretary of State spoke about local authorities getting the grant that is appropriate, without any of these other problems. Will he answer the only question that I originally asked him to which he has so far not alluded? Under the new system, after he has swept away the existing Conservative-invented system of rate support grant, there will still be safety nets funded by three quarters of all authorities for the quarter of the remaining authorities; there will still be grant-related expenditure and poll tax capping. That stands every chance of being as complicated and unfair to many authorities as the existing system.
Mr. Ridley: On the first question, I shall show the hon. Gentleman a copy of the news release in which a further £25 million is made available to authorities in the current financial year because there has been an underspend on capital. Of the £44·7 million that has been made available, £25 million is specifically directed to helping the homeless, which is the most that we judge that authorities would be able to spend in the short time remaining of this financial year.
On the hon. Gentleman's second point, there are two separate safety nets. The first is the one that we have been discussing this afternoon. The safety net proposed for the community charge is one that phases out the high level of rates in certain areas over four years, then ceases to exist and cannot be brought back into the equation. That is a different type of safety net from the one that we have been discussing; but the grant to each authority, particularly after the four-year transitional period, will be based on that authority's needs as assessed by a new system that I hope will be simpler than the present one, but equally accurate. When that grant is paid, it will not be subject to abatement, targets, holdback or grant underclaim of any sort. Nor will it be subject to the spending of the authority in any way, so the grant will then be the authority's, and we shall not have the problems which my hon. Friends have so rightly identified—those of losing grant for no apparent reason.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I regret that it was not possible to call all hon. Members who have risen. If they remind me when we come to debate the matter, I shall give them precedence in the debate.

North Tees General Hospital
4.19 pm
Mr. Frank Cook: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the closure without notice of further hospital wards in the North Tees general hospital in Stockton, and the 50 per cent. reduction in the number of beds in the intensive care unit."
The closure relates to two wards in that hospital — ward 3, which is a maternity provision ward, and beds in the children's ward for paediatric provision; together with a 50 per cent. reduction in the intensive care unit, which has only six beds in total. Three wards are to be closed, and one of the three remaining ones is occupied by young Nathalie Olds, who has occupied it ever since she was born, as that is the only way in which she can stay alive. So only one third of intensive care provision is left in the North Tees hospital.
That is in addition to the closures that I raised with you, Mr. Speaker, a week ago today under Standing Order No. 20. I referred to the 48 elderly care beds and the 44 surgical beds that were to be removed, and the one theatre session per day that was to be ended. That is how specific the matter is. It is important because, as I said at the time, North Tees general hospital is the only provision for a community of more than 100,000 people north of the Tees. Any reduction in the services given by that hospital would have an immediate and significant effect. It is a dereliction of duty for the Secretary of State to allow that. Under the legislation, he has a duty to make such provision.
The matter is urgent, for this reason. At least last week's closures were announced to the community health council before they took place, but these closures are to be announced to the community health council next month, after they have taken place. Therefore, it is more important that we have this debate today.
Last Thursday, in the Health Service debate, the junior health Minister, the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie), leapt in and out of that debate with all the grace and skill of a runaway sideboard. She had the
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effrontery to tell me, or at least imply, that I did not have a clue what I was saying and that I knew nothing about North Tees general hospital.
I beg you, Mr. Speaker, to allow us a debate on that emergency topic today. I could then show the House what I know about the health care conditions in North Tees and how the matter needs immediate attention.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the closure without notice of further hospital wards in the North Tees general hospital in Stockton, and the 50 per cent. reduction in the number of beds in the intensive care unit."
I have listened with great care to what the hon. Gentleman has said, but he knows that my duty in assessing whether to grant a Standing Order No. 20 debate is whether to give it precedence over the business set down for today or tomorrow. I regret that I cannot find that his submission meets the criteria of Standing Order No. 20 applications, and I therefore cannot submit his application to the House.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Mr. Speaker: By leave of the House, I shall put together the Questions on the two motions relating to Statutory Instruments.
Ordered,
That the draft Sex Discrimination (Amendment) Order 1987 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]
Ordered,
That the draft Medicines (Exemption from Licences) (Carbadox and Olaquindox) Order 1987 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]

SCOTTISH GRAND COMMITTEE
Ordered,
That the matter of Education in Scotland, being a matter relating exclusively to Scotland, be referred to the Scottish Grand Committee for its consideration. — [Mr. David Hunt.]

Orders of the Day

  Housing Bill
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: Before we start this important debate, I should announce to the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the leader of the Liberal party. I repeat what I have said earlier, that a large number of right hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye in the debate. I appeal for short contributions.
  4.22 pm
  The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The main purpose of the Bill, which seeks to implement many of the proposals in our White Paper "Housing: The Government's Proposals", is to make a cautious move towards evolving a new policy for rented housing. I say "cautious", because it is a cautious and measured move, so that all who have the interests at heart of the citizens who need or prefer to rent rather than to buy their homes may be encouraged to support the policy.
  If ever there were a subject where political dispute has done grave harm to the interests of the less well-off, it is in rented housing. It is high time that there was an agreed way forward. I do not pretend that this measure will be the last that the House will see of the subject over the decade ahead, but I would rather that in future we were debating how to improve these provisions than to be stuck in the stalemate of a doctrinaire disagreement as we have been since 1915—the year when the first rent restrictions were introduced.
  First, I shall summarise briefly the chequered history of rent controls in the private sector. The restrictions introduced in 1915 froze rents at 1914 levels for about two thirds of all unfurnished lettings, with statutory security of tenure. Those controls were extended in 1919 and 1920 to cover virtually all unfurnished lettings.
  In 1937, an interdepartmental committee on the rent restrictions Acts produced a report recommending immediate decontrol of lettings with rateable values above specified limits; phased decontrol for lettings with lower rateable values; and the end of decontrol of new lettings. In 1939, at the outbreak of war, virtually all unfurnished lettings were made the subject of control, with rents frozen at September 1939 levels.
  A second interdepartmental committee produced a report in 1945 recommending that all rents should be registered with local authorities and that rent tribunals should determine fair rents. I ought, in fairness to the House, to declare an interest in both those committees: they were chaired by my father and were widely known as the Ridley committees.
  Those elaborate controls were replaced by the Rent Act 1957. It provided for the immediate decontrol of existing lettings where the rateable value exceeded £40 in London and Scotland, and £30 elsewhere.
  The decontrol provisions were in turn replaced by the Labour Government in 1965 with security of tenure for tenants of unfurnished lettings and a system of so-called "fair rents". Those provisions were extended to furnished lettings in 1974. That is broadly the system that has been
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  in force ever since. When one looks at the period as a whole, the consequences are plain to see: private renting has declined from 30 per cent of the housing stock in 1914 to just under 8 per cent. today.
  Mr. David Winnick: The right hon. Gentleman has been giving a potted history of rent control legislation. He mentioned the Rent Act 1957, which was intended by the Conservative Government, so we were told when the Bill was debated, to ensure that there was a far greater supply of privately rented accommodation. Is it not a fact that the 1957 Act led to two things—first, a substantial reduction in rented accommodation, and all the figures prove that to be so; and, secondly, the scandal of Rachmanism, whereby all the pressure and intimidation was put on the existing tenant so that that accommodation could be released and automatically decontrolled? Much of that is being repeated in the Bill today.
  Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman is right to some extent in his analysis of what was wrong with the 1957 Act. It is exactly because of that that we wish to avoid those mistakes. That Act applied to some existing lettings, and the Bill applies to none. Secondly, it removed all statutory controls over new lettings, leaving both rents and security as a matter of contract. Thirdly, there was no comprehensive statutory protection from eviction, so that landlords could easily evict tenants without recourse to the courts, whereas now we have legislation already and the Bill greatly tightens up the legislation against harassment. Fourthly, there was no housing benefit system to provide tenants with help towards the higher rents that ensue from decontrol. Doubtless the hon. Gentleman will try to make use of those points in the debate, but I hope that I can persuade him that we have learnt those lessons.
  So the private rented sector has suffered a substantial decline since the first world war but, over the same period, the public sector has seen a major expansion. At the end of the 1930s, the public sector housing stock consisted of about 1·1 million homes. After the second world war, public sector house building increased dramatically: by 1979, local authorities, together with the new towns, owned and managed some 5·5 million homes.
  To manage that number of houses is a massive undertaking, and that is precisely what went wrong. Local authorities have found themselves landlords of vast numbers of houses, flats and maisonettes—about 50,000 is not an uncommon number in the larger metropolitan authorities. As a result, councils have faced an enormous administrative and management task. Almost inevitably, it has led to insensitive allocation procedures and to queuing, which make tenants feel like supplicants. Often cumbersome, remote and inflexible arrangements for the management and maintenance of properties have grown up.
  Those managements have led to physical decay and decline. Much post-war local authority housing, built in a hurry, is in enormous estates, either in the inner city or on the periphery of the conurbations. Those places are often monotonous, soulless places in which few would choose to live—if they had a choice. The worst such estates suffer from poor design and layout; bad repair; a poor environment with vandalism, graffiti and rubbish-strewn streets and open spaces; and high levels of crime. No one responds to the tenants' cry for help.

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  I do not lay all the blame for this at the door of local authorities. Some authorities have proved appallingly inefficient in managing their estates and disgracefully unresponsive to the wishes of their tenants, but many others have done their best to act as good landlords. But we cannot ignore the fact that mass landlord provision has failed to give tenants what they want; they have been all too vulnerable to the kind of difficulties I have described. We cannot leave them to suffer. This is the problem we now have to tackle.
  Mr. Clive Soley: If the Minister is so concerned about the welfare of tenants—and if he is, I welcome that conversion—given that the surveys show that more people in the private sector than in the public sector are dissatisfied with their landlords, why is he not providing the same choices to them?
  Mr. Ridley: Because, since 1915, the rent restrictions have resulted in inadequate rent for the private sector and therefore inadequate repair. That problem is being dealt with in part I of the Bill.
  The suggestion that we want to end the role of local authorities in housing is nonsense: with some 4·5 million homes on their books, it is inconceivable that they will not remain major providers of rented housing for the foreseeable future. We are trying to shift the future emphasis of their role from direct provision to securing the provision of housing by other agencies and organisations. That is why we want to encourage the growth of other types of independent landlord in the rented sector. For those already in the public sector, we want to provide more choice and flexibility, encourage better management standards among local authorities through the introduction of competition and make a start on tackling the problems of the worst council estates. Those are the objects of the Bill.
  The Bill does not implement all the proposals in the White Paper. We expect to introduce all our housing proposals, but the pressure on the legislative timetable means that we have not been able to include all the proposals in this Bill. We have therefore concentrated on the rented sector. Proposals for reform of local authority housing accounts and for the simplification and improved targeting of home improvement grants will be included in future legislation. On the right to buy, we remain committed to measures which will compensate tenants whose purchases are held up without good reason and we hope to bring forward amendments during the passage of the Bill. On the proposals to abolish the cost floor, we are considering very carefully again all the views that have been put to us, and it may well not feature in this year's Bill.
  Part I of the Bill concerns the private rented sector. It provides that most new lettings will be either assured tenancies or assured shorthold tenancies. The system of registered fair rents will continue for existing lettings, but will no longer be available for most new lettings.
  Under the terms of the new assured tenancy, set out in chapter I, market rents will be freely negotiable between landlord and tenant, but the tenant will have long-term security of tenure comparable with that available under the present Rent Act. The new assured tenancy builds on the existing assured tenancy scheme, but with a number of
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  important changes: first, landlords who can grant assured tenancies will no longer be confined to companies and partnerships.
  Mr. Allan Roberts: Will the Minister confirm that the nature of assured tenancies will be totally altered in this legislation and that they will not be the same as the assured tenancies legislated for in the 1980 Act? Their whole nature will alter; they are not assured tenancies but something different with the same name. Will he explain why the shorthold tenancy provisions of the 1980 Act, which his party claimed would bring many empty properties on the market into the private sector, have not worked?
  Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman interrupted me to ask about what I was describing. I was answering his point as he rose. I will come to shorthold tenancies later.
  There are changes to assured tenancies: first, landlords who can grant assured tenancies will no longer be confined to companies and partnerships—all landlords, including individuals, will be able to do so; second, tenancies will no longer be limited to new or improved dwellings; and, thirdly, the requirement that landlords of such tenancies should be approved by the Secretary of State will be ended. The Bill provides that, where a landlord and a tenant are unable to agree on a change in the rent level, a rent assessment committee will be able to fix a rent at a market level. They are identical, except for those three changes.
  I ought to say a few words about the ending of the approved landlord system, since I know that Opposition Members attach particular importance to it. A system of approval in the new regime would frankly be unworkable. We estimate that, within five years of commencement, up to 190,000 landlords would be letting on the new basis as a result of turnover within the sector alone. The task of vetting and approving them all would be a bureaucratic nightmare; would be likely to be ineffective in any event; and would in all probability deter many landlords, particularly small landlords, while not necessarily extracting the bad eggs. While I have an open mind on this issue, I am bound to say that compulsory registration does not seem to me to be feasible.
  Mr. Hugh Rossi: I ask the Minister for two points of clarification. First, are the mandatory and discretionary grounds for possession given to the courts in schedule 2 the same as those in existing legislation, or are there variations; if so, would he outline them? Secondly, he will not know, but his officials will know, that during the passage of the Rent Act 1974 our late right hon. Friend Sir Graham Page and I drew attention to a trap that existed for those who held joint tenancies on trust for sale. Ministers at the time denied that. Our interpretation was subsequently upheld by the court and in consequence one of my constituents suffered considerable financial loss. Ministers have promised to put right that anomaly. I cannot see it in the Bill, and I wonder whether my right hon. Friend can assist me.
  Mr. Ridley: Those are highly complex technical points. My hon. Friend will forgive me if I refer him to schedule 2 of the Bill, which sets out the terms of possession provisions in full, but I will follow that up with a letter explaining the precise differences. On the second point, the Bill puts right the problem that my hon. Friend raises, although not retrospectively. Again, I will confirm that point to him.

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  The new shorthold tenancy, which the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Roberts) asked about, and which is dealt with in chapter II of the Bill, is designed to meet the needs of landlords who wish to let their property for a fixed term and be certain of regaining possession at the end of the term.
  The rent for a shorthold tenancy would be negotiable between the landlord and the tenant, but the tenant will be able to apply to the rent committee for a rent to be registered at any time once the tenancy has started. The committee will compare the rent for the tenancy with other market rents for shortholds of similar property in the area and, if it is excessive, will be empowered to reduce it. The answer to the hon. Gentleman's point is the difference between market rents and so-called fair rents, Which are not fair to the landlord in giving him a return on his investment.
  Mr. Anthony Nelson: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for giving way in the important passage of the speech concerning rent. Will he confirm that, as the only difference between the assured tenancy and the assured shorthold tenancy is that the former will have indefinite security of tenure, and the latter will have a set market rent, what will be the incentive to let on an assured tenancy rather than a shorthold tenancy? If I am correct in the suggestion that the overwhelming temptation will be to have assured shorthold tenancies, the rent set for assured tenancies may be above market rent, because that will be the cost of people being able to buy into an indefinite period of secured tenancy.
  Mr. Ridley: The assured tenancy scheme will be attractive to people in the business of long-term letting, such as companies, building societies and so on, and they will readily agree to security of tenure. My hon. Friend is not quite right. The original rent will be determined entirely by negotiation between the tenant and the landlord, and there will be no appeal against that to the committee. On the other hand, in the case of shorthold there will be an appeal to the committee to determine a market rent, but the security of tenure is limited to the period of the shorthold. That will be attractive to people who perhaps are going abroad for a few years or who have a spare house that they wish to let or rooms in a house that they wish to rent. That will bring further empty property on to the market.
  Mr. Allan Roberts: As I understand it, the Secretary of State is saying that the shorthold provisions of the 1980 Act failed to make available more houses in the private rented sector, and that that was not because the concept of shorthold was at fault but because the rents were not high enough. That meant that the private owners could not get a big enough return from the properties and did not rent them. Will the Minister confirm that he is saying that? Does he accept that the shorthold provision is such that, for many of the houses that came on to the market, fair rents were not set because of a fear by the tenant that if he tried to get a fair rent assessed and set he would have his shorthold tenancy renewed at the end of the period?
  Mr. Ridley: There have been many shorthold tenancies since the system came into existence. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a figure, but clearly the threat of having the rent registered at a level below the economic rent that is needed to buy and maintain a property is a slight deterrent
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  to people who want to bring forward such properties. That is why there are many empty private sector houses and flats. We seek to have them brought into use because that is one of the main ways of easing the problem of homelessness — especially in London. The hon. Gentleman seems to put the past in front of the much more important matter of getting these houses on to the market and allowng them to be used.
  Mr. Simon Hughes: Can the Secretary of State tell us what the position will be for a prospective tenant who does not have a high income? In London, for example, how will a market rent accommodate low-paid or non-paid people who need to rent? How can they be assured that they will have an income sufficient to pay the rent that the market will demand? Can the Secretary of State tell the House that anybody who does not have the necessary income will be guaranteed the shortfall and that it will be made up by housing benefit and the social security system?
  Mr. Ridley: It is clear that anybody who qualifies for housing benefit will qualify for the full amount of the rent that his accommodation costs him. However, there are three provisos and I shall come to them shortly. The hon. Gentleman will find them acceptable.
  The other major change contained in this part of the Bill concerns harassment of tenants. That point was raised by the hon. Member for Bootle. Under existing law, it is an offence for any person to harass a residential occupier with the intention of causing him to leave his home. The test of intent has in practice been difficult to prove, and the Bill therefore provides an additional offence of harassing an occupier knowing that this was likely to drive him out. This is likely to be easier to prove.
  In addition, the Bill provides for a new civil right to improved compensation for tenants driven out by harassment or illegally evicted. Such tenants would be entitled to compensation based on the financial gain to The landlord of securing vacant possession of his property. This will be a very powerful deterrent to landlords who have always been tempted to realise substantial profits by driving out their tenants by harassment or illegal eviction. Our proposals make it less likely—not more likely—that landlords will be tempted to harass tenants to get vacant possession. There is a strong incentive for them to do so now in order to sell on the open market, but if they can get a reasonable rate of return they will have more incentive than they have at present to retain the property and to rent it out.
  Part I of the Bill also applies to housing associations. In future, most housing association new lettings will be either assured or shorthold tenancies. This will enable them to charge rather higher rents than the fair rents that they presently charge. However, these will not be full market rents because Government grants will continue to be available via the Housing Corporation to ensure that rents are kept at a level that the traditional clientele of housing associations can afford. However, this greater flexibility on rents will enable housing associations to attract private finance to supplement their grant allocations. This is a very important innovation because it will enable housing associations to provide more housing for a given amount of public money, while still meeting the needs of their traditional lower-income clientele.

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  I shall shortly say more about the new rent regime for housing associations. A new rent regime clearly needs new grant arrangements to go with it. Existing legislation on housing association grants and rent surpluses is insufficiently flexible for this purpose and excessively detailed. Part II of the Bill provides this much broader framework.
  I shall now tell the House how we envisage rents and subsidies working out in the context of our proposals for deregulating the private rented sector and introducing greater flexibility into housing association rents. Hon. Members will appreciate that a key feature of our proposals is the new scope for rents to rise so as to provide a greater return — whether to attract more private landlords into the field or to provide housing associations with a level of income sufficient to service private loans. Of course, a crucial factor in all this is the ability of tenants to pay.
  In the private sector, rents will move towards market levels. Any Government support will focus on tenants, rather than on property, through the housing benefit system. Hon. Members may be assured that housing benefit will be available for all those whose incomes are low enough to qualify for full or partial benefit, irrespective of the rent charged, with three exceptions. These are the three provisos that I mentioned to the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes). They are, first, where there is conniving to milk the Exchequer by charging an unreasonably high rent for the property in question on the basis of a market rent test; secondly, where the claimant is clearly over-accommodated and has far more rooms than he needs; and, thirdly, where the property is of a quality that the majority of people would not ordinarily expect to afford.
  The object here is not to exercise detailed controls over where people live and how much they pay; it is simply a matter of protecting public funds. Taxpayers' money ought not to be used to allow landlords to inflate rents to excessive levels or to permit benefit recipients to occupy over-large or up-market accommodation. Accordingly, we shall introduce new provisions under which rent officers will assume the function of assessing rents and accommodation for housing benefit purposes. On the basis of their assessment, rent allowance subsidy will be restricted in cases where the rent is unreasonably high or the property unduly large and benefit itself would be limited at the most expensive end of the market. Should it prove necessary for those reasons, we shall introduce further limits on benefit.
  Some commentators have pointed to the fact that those whose incomes take them just above housing benefit levels will find it hard to justify renting from the private sector. Indeed, it will often be cheaper for them to buy a home, given the advantages of buying with mortgage interest tax relief. This is an inevitable result of this relief which—at least at the basic rate of tax and certainly for new buyers—has all-party support. This reflects all-party desire to help all who can afford to do so to buy their own homes. We cannot have it both ways. Nevertheless, there will remain many people for whom renting will still be the first option, whether in the private or social rented sector. That includes people on low incomes, those whose jobs require them to be mobile, single people sharing flats and those who will take rooms in someone's house. I expect this Bill
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  to make a major contribution to ending the shortage of premises to rent in London and other places and to be a major contributor to solving the problem of homelessness.
  Mr. Charles Morrison: I am most interested in my right hon. Friend's remarks about solving the problems. I am sure that part 1 of the Bill will be very helpful, but it seems to refer mostly to urban and inner-city areas. Will my right hon. Friend explain how the Bill may help to solve the rural housing problem, which is developing, not least because of the success of the Government's right-to-buy proposals, coupled in certain popular rural areas, such as Wiltshire, with a reduction in the number of tied cottages? The consequence of that is that many young couples from the indigenous local population simply cannot find local authority or other housing. Will the Bill help such people and is it designed to do so?
  Mr. Ridley: This Bill and the Local Government Bill, which is in Committee at the moment, are designed to make a major contribution to solving that very problem. In future, both housing associations and private landlords—for example, a local farmer or a resident in a village—will be able to build to rent and will be able to obtain subsidy from the local authority or the Housing Corporation to ensure that they can let those houses at affordable rents. It is likely that the problem will turn out to relate as much to the obtaining of planning permission as to the ability to rent. The Bill is specifically designed to help to solve the rural housing problem referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Morrison), and I hope that it will succeed.
  I should like to welcome the recent initiative by the Nationwide Anglia building society. Nationwide Anglia announced last week that it was involved in setting up a new company, called Quality Street, to which it will lend £600 million over the next five years. The company intends to provide up to 40,000 good quality, well managed, privately let homes at different levels in the market—initially in Glasgow but later in other cities, too. That is the kind of action that we need to improve the quality of rented housing and provide greater choice for consumers. It shows that there are private sector organisations keen to invest in rented housing. Our plans to revive the private rented sector in this Bill will create the right climate for further imaginative initiatives of this sort. The Nationwide Anglia initiative relates mainly to the cities, but I hope that others will come forward with similar proposals for villages and small towns in the country, where there is just as much need.
  In the social rented sector — essentially housing associations and council housing—there is a balance to be struck between subsidising people and subsidising property. We favour a change in the current balance towards support for people and away from bricks and mortar subsidy. However, we certainly do not propose any sudden or dramatic changes that would bear harshly upon tenants. Indeed, current housing association tenants will be unaffected for as long as they remain in their present homes.
  New housing association tenants will pay a rent which the association will set itself without reference to the rent officer. The rent for a particular dwelling will be determined by its cost and by the contribution that the Exchequer makes available through grant. As I said, we

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  are also looking for increased private sector finance for housing associations. It is too early to say what the new grant rates will be or what rents they will produce. Rents will be higher than existing fair rents, but the broad intention is that associations should be able to set rents that could reasonably be met by housing association tenants in work.
  Part III contains provisions for the establishment of housing action trusts. Earlier, I described some of the appalling conditions in which tenants on some of the larger estates in our inner cities and conurbations now live. I described the problems of architectural experiments that have turned out to be an insult to the people who have to live in them and who face daily the problems of disrepair, dereliction and crime. The people who live in such places deserve better. However, in the worst of these areas, it is now beyond the capacity of local authorities to deal with the problems.
  Housing action trusts will make a start in tackling those problems. Based broadly on the model of the highly successful urban development corporations, the trusts are intended to be short-life bodies which will take over large areas of rundown council housing—perhaps up to 5,000 or 6,000 homes — and refurbish and improve them before passing them on to new forms of ownership and management. The trusts will also have powers to enable them to undertake or contribute to measures designed to regenerate local economic activity, employment initiatives, the provision of amenities and other facilities for local people.
  This part of the Bill provides for me to designate housing action trust areas and to establish trusts for those areas. It sets out the kinds of matters—for example, the condition of the housing, the way in which it is being managed and the general social and environmental conditions of the area—which I may take into account before doing so. Both the designation and the establishment of trusts are to be effected by orders subject to affirmative resolution of both Houses.
  In the designated areas, the trusts will have most of the housing functions of the local authority. To ensure that trusts can tackle their tasks as efficiently and effectively as possible, the Bill provides that the trusts may also be given various functions such as development control by order and various other planning and public health functions. The extent to which such powers are granted will inevitably depend to some extent on the degree of co-operation that the housing action trusts can establish with the local authorities.
  It is my strong preference that the trusts should be able to proceed with the full co-operation of local authorities. Opponents of the proposal have sought to depict it as an anti-local authority measure. They are wrong. The trusts are a special instrument devised to deal with very special problems. It would be most unfortunate if local authorities adopted a hostile stance towards them, as they offer perhaps the only chance of rescuing areas of housing and their tenants in some of the most miserable estates in the country. Nevertheless, I do not rule out establishing trusts even where the local authority adopts a doctrinaire stance of hostility, if I consider that that is the only way in which we can help some of its tenants.
  The trusts must regard as central the interests of existing tenants in the areas that they take on. Hon. Members will note that the Bill provides for the trusts to consult tenants and other residents fully about their plans
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  for the area and to report to me on the outcome of that consultation exercise. That is particularly important. There can be no question of the trusts' riding roughshod over the views of tenants.
  Part IV of the Bill applies to all tenants in the council sector. As I said, council tenants have simply had to take what they are given by way of accommodation and service from their landlord and put up with it. While many local authorities have an undeniably good record as landlords, a significant number do not. They have managed properties inefficiently and with little respect for tenants' wishes and have provided a poor service. Such failings characterise a monopoly, where the spur of competition is absent and the consumer is unable to take his business elsewhere.
  The proposals in part IV of the Bill are designed to restore some balance by giving the tenant a choice—the right to seek an alternative landlord. This will introduce the spur of competition into the local authority rented sector for the first time. This can only benefit all tenants, whether or not they choose to remain in that sector. Indeed, it has already started to do so.
  Provisions in this part of the Bill define the people and property in respect of which the right to seek a new landlord may be exercised. Essentially, they will be secure tenants of local housing authorities, new towns and housing action trusts. The clauses also specify that only landlords approved by the Housing Corporation may apply to purchase the freehold of tenanted homes under this part of the Bill. Such landlords might include registered housing associations, a tenants' co-operative or a private firm. Nationwide Anglia has made it clear that it stands ready to help.
  The Bill sets out the procedures that are to apply. There are also provisions requiring the would-be landlord to consult tenants. Any tenant who expresses a wish to remain a tenant of the local authority will be able to do so. Houses of such tenants will remain in council ownership. In the case of blocks of flats, the transfer will not be able to go ahead if more than half the tenants object, and, if a transfer goes ahead, the new landlord will be required to grant the local authority a lease on the flats of those tenants who wish to remain tenants of the local authority, thus safeguarding their position. The new right is vital in giving the council tenant the genuine opportunity to vote with his feet if he regards his local authority landlord as unsatisfactory.
  Mr. John Fraser rose—
  Mr. Ridley: This Bill marks a major step forward in improving the opportunities, choices and conditions of all those who rent rather than buy their own homes. The Government want to see more and better housing for rent. This Bill creates the opportunity for putting private and public finance to work to create more choice and more competition. I commend it to the House.
  5 pm
  Mr. Clive Soley: I begin by apologising on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) who has suffered a minor but painful accident. We expect him to be back with us in full fighting form in the near future.
  As we begin the debate on what I regard as an irrelevant and, at times, damaging Bill we must remember that there

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  are many people in this country who live in warm, comfortable, well-built, well-constructed and well-repaired homes. That is due to the contribution of Labour Governments and Labour authorities in the past and it has been supported by Conservative Governments and Conservative local authorities as well. There was a time when the political debate on housing in this country hinged on the issue of how many houses and flats had been built or renovated and what the quality of the stock was like. That is no longer true. The Government have destroyed any consensus on housing. If they believe that they have simply destroyed the consensus with the Labour party, let me tell them how wrong they are. The Conservative-controlled Association of District Councils said:
  "The record of housing authorities is generally good—they should not be blamed for any general social problems that may be manifest in urban centres. These are conditions which are found in many countries".
  Therefore, the role of local authorities is supported by the Association of District Councils. The role of local authorities is also supported by Rural Voice, which also obtained support from the National Farmers Union and other organisations. I will be referring to those organisations throughout the debate because we know that we have their support as well as support across the board from Labour and Liberal local authorities. We know that over the past eight or nine years we have watched the Government rip into the morale of local authority employees and local authority councillors. In doing that they are undermining local democracy in this country.
  Housing was recognised by successive Governments as being vital to the welfare of the nation. We all knew, and still know, that a person who lives in poor or inadequate housing is likely to suffer greater health problems. We know that people who live in poor or inadequate housing are less likely to do well in education. We know that if one does not have a good housing policy, particularly if homelessness is pushed up to record levels as it is under this Government, there will be a dramatic increase in crime. When the Government introduced the board and lodging allowance, they pushed more and more young people into homelessness and, consequently, into drug abuse, alcohol abuse and crime. The figures were produced by the Government, by their own Home Secretary, and they know that. That is one of the most damaging things the Government have done.
  There was supposed to be consultation about the Bill. The consultation papers often required a response within four weeks. Were tenants to be consulted in that time? Oh no, tenants do not really matter, whether private or public. That is why we shall give the House an opportunity to vote to put the Bill before a Special Standing Committee of the House. That would provide an opportunity for the various bodies, including Conservative-controlled organisations such as the ADC, to give evidence to the Committee. Let them do that. If the Government really believe that they have the support of even their own party in rural areas, let the organisations give evidence to the Standing Committee and let us see some of the Conservative Members in the Lobby with us; that is unless the Government believe that the Bill should go to a Special Standing Committee.
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  The Minister for Housing and Planning, the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Waldegrave), did not even know when the Housing Bill was to be published. He told me that it would be published at the end of November. In fact, it came out on Friday 20 November after various queries from the media which had heard a rumour that it was to be published. The Bill was published with the word "Restricted" stamped on it. That was because, as everybody knows, it was a draft document. In other words, consultation was not taken into account.
  There are deep divisions within the Government on the issue of housing. I can provide one little example straight from Conservative Central Office. The Secretary of State and the Minister both made speeches on housing and the wording is the same except for two words and they totally turn round the meaning of the statement. On 19 May 1987 the Secretary of State said:
  "The quantity of housing available for renting overall is probably sufficient to cater for the numbers of households needing rented accommodation."
  One month later on 19 June 1987 the Minister said:
  "The quantity of housing available for renting is insufficient to cater for the number of households needing rented accommodation."
  That is an example—we have other evidence—of the fact that the Minister is in disagreement with his Secretary of State on what they are trying to do.
  The consequence of the Government's policy since 1979 is the creation of a desperately serious and growing housing crisis throughout the United Kingdom. When one of the Conservative Back-Benchers interrupted to say that the Bill deals with city areas but does nothing for rural areas, he was right. The Bill will do nothing for rural areas. The report of the ADC and the report of Rural Voice make it clear that there is a serious and damaging decline in the rented sector and a serious and damaging decline in the standard of maintenance in rural and semi-rural areas as well as in urban areas. We know that.
  The Bill is largely irrelevant and, in many cases, positively damaging. What is the nature of the crisis? First, there is a crisis in house price inflation. Secondly, there is a disgraceful crisis in homelessness and bed-and-breakfast accommodation. Thirdly, there is a dramatic loss of rented housing, which is forcing up waiting lists. Fourthly, and underlying the other problems, there is a collapse of public sector building and a housing finance system that has been pushed into chaos by the Government and distorted the rented and purchasing markets. There is nothing in the Bill to deal with house price inflation. Prices are likely to remain distorted throughout the United Kingdom.
  If unemployed people in the north want to come to the south for a job they will either have to stay where they are and commute—driving up and down the motorway if they can get a group together to do that, as some people do—or leave home. When I went to Exeter a short while ago one of the first people I met was a man looking for a job. He had left his family in Newcastle and was paying £70 a week in a hostel set up for the homeless. He hoped to find a job for the coming tourist season. That is becoming all too common a picture in our country. It applies wherever one goes, not just to urban areas. It means that a couple who save to buy a home or to trade up on their existing home if they have children can be forced into serious debt by mortgage rate increases or unemployment. Repossessions in the private sector have increased fourfold. That is the measure of the crisis for those people. A dream for many people has turned into a

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  nightmare. If one looks at the number of people in bed-and-breakfast accommodation, one finds that a significant minority are there because their homes have been repossessed.
  What about the promise of more help to repair and improve? The Secretary of State said—I listened to him carefully—that they were thinking of doing that a little later. It is a pity that they could not have done it sooner. The Green Paper was published two and a half years ago. This Bill is a missed opportunity. The ADC, Rural Voice and other organisations have criticised the Bill for that.
  The Bill does nothing about homelessness or bed-and-breakfast accommodation. The White Paper did not even mention homelessness. The word did not appear in it at all. Yet homelessness is at record levels in this country. At Christmas we shall be asked to remember those who are homeless or in bed-and-breakfast accommodation and those who are sleeping under the bridges not very far from here. Indeed, when hon. Members go home tonight they may well see the same body that has been sleeping in that box beside the entrance of Westminster tube station for some months now.
  We all acknowledge that some people will always be homeless—the burnt-out, vagrant, schizophrenic or the alcoholic who refuses to accept any help. But we are not in that league any more; it is entirely different. We are talking about thousands and thousands of people forced to sleep rough and desperate for a roof over their heads.
  Last year, 200,000 people applied as homeless to local authorities. Only 100,000 could be accepted. The January 1987 report of the Department of the Environment, referring to houses in multiple occupation, said that there were 1·9 million single people living in hostels, bed-sits and bed-and-breakfast accommodation who wanted a self-contained home. The report found that four fifths of those houses in multiple occupation had no adequate fire escape and 60 per cent. lacked adequate amenities. One third of the tenants had to share a bathroom with at least six others. The estimated national cost of doing up those properties was £3·6 billion. The average income of the people living there was £90 a week whereas the average rent paid was £27 a week—almost a third of their pay. But the Secretary of State has been telling us that rents are not high enough. The Government argue that, when the rents go up — perhaps by 50 per cent.—suddenly a miracle will occur and properties will appear on the market. That is wicked nonsense.
  A recent survey in Hackney found that 64 per cent. of homeless single people were under 26, and I refer to my previous comments on the way in which crime and drug and alcohol abuse are linked to homelessness and poor accommodation. There are 11,000 families in bed-and-breakfast accommodation at a cost of £12,000 per family per annum. If we provided them with a newly built council house, the cost would be £7,000 per family per annum. The Secretary of State has told us that he will make another £25 million available, but we shall look at the small print. I have learnt with this Government, and especially this Secretary of State and this Department of the Environment, to look at the small print. Conservative Members found recently with the rate support grant that, although they might have thought that they would get more, they in fact got less. Conservative Back Benchers criticised that rate support grant—not for the first time—because it did not deliver the goods that they had constantly promised their local authorities.
  The Minister for Housing and Planning (Mr. William Waldegrave): The hon. Gentleman is a fair man so, when he has examined the small print and found that there are no such problems, will he write and congratulate us?
  Mr. Soley: I shall do much more — I shall get together a meeting of all the Conservative Members who criticise this policy and, if they will sign the letter, I shall do so, too. But they must demonstrate that their local authorities will not be worse off. We have heard the questions and shall have no difficulty in pursuing that point.
  The Government's policy in the Bill is deregulation of the private sector and damaging intervention on housing associations. As the Secretary of State admitted, the Government tried this crazy idea in 1957 and again in 1980. In 1957 a new word entered the English language — "Rachmanism". The Secretary of State should remember that everyone acknowledges that some of Mr. Rachman's activities were illegal, but he was never convicted of anything. I criticise the Liberal amendment because the Liberals do not recognise—I hope that the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes), who is a lawyer, will recognise this—that the law on harassment is not strong.
  Sir Hugh Rossi: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the effects of the Rent Act 1957. Will he consider this point? What happened was the direct result of the Labour party promising at once to repeal that legislation and bring back controls once more. Obviously, an owner who won vacant possession did not want to run the risk of the Labour party doing that, so he sold out at the first opportunity. That was the reason for the decline in the private rented sector, for which successive Labour Governments have been responsible.
  Mr. Soley: That is one of the most naive explanations that I have every heard. I shall take the hon. Gentlernan through the argument and, if he follows me, he might begin to understand why I said that.
  In 1980, the Government introduced shorthold tenancies and certain technical changes with respect to rent increases. Following the 1957 changes, there was the biggest ever single decrease in the number of rented properties available apart possibly from the present time. Since the beginning of this century, there has been a steady, almost straight-line-graph decline in the private rented sector. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the figures, he will find that when Governments of various political complexions, going back to 1915 — as the Secretary of State said—introduced a form of rent control, there was no change in the rate of decline. It stayed constant. Since 1979, 1 million homes have gone from the rented sector, half of them from the private rented sector—more than the number of homes destroyed by Hitler's bombs. All right, the homes about which I am talking have not been destroyed, but they have gone from the rented sector. But the Government say that since 1980 and the introduction of short lets and technical changes in the Rent Acts, this sector is supposed to be reviving.
  There is another issue that gives the lie to this crazy theory. More than half the lets in London are outside Rent Act controls, and the bottom is still dropping out of the market. The Government believe that if rents are increased the problem will be solved. But I have already said that people on an average income of £90 a week pay £27 in rent.

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  The Association of District Councils—I am glad to have such bodies on my side—agrees that market rents are unlikely to revive the rented sector. So much for the belief of the Secretary of State that the Conservative party is on his side. It is not, and Rural Voice does not believe him either. Rural Voice operates council houses throughout Britain, which is how it knows what is happening. People forget that Mr. Rachman was not "just", as some say, a bad landlord. He was a property developer. He wanted to get people out so that he could sell the properties. That should tell the Government a lot about how they handle the Bill. They have introduced some limited protection against eviction and harassment in part IV. If one reads the small print, one recognises that to ensure that a court issues a possession order, allowing possession to go ahead, the landlord merely has to offer "suitable alternative accommodation". There will be arguments about what is "suitable". The landlord might say, "Sorry, but you must move. You might have had a garden before, but we shall move you first to this two-roomed flat. When we have moved you, perhaps we will move you to a one-roomed flat." People will again go through the agonies of the 1950s period, and that is why I ask the Liberal party to think again about the wording of its amendment.
  It has always been notoriously difficult to prove harassment and illegal eviction. That is why I draw the attention of the House to the fact that Mr. Rachman was never convicted of any offence.
  Mr. Winnick: On existing regulated tenancies, does there not remain an incentive to get tenants out? Even if accommodation is not sold with vacant possession, it can be relet at market rents. Even if laws preventing harassment are brought into effect—there is a question mark over how effective they will be—nine times out of 10 the tenant who has been forced out will not be reinstated.
  Mr. Soley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, as I hope is the House, because he has saved me from making one of my points. My hon. Friend is right.
  On 19 May, in the statement I have already quoted, the Secretary of State said that we need tough summary sanctions. One need not be a lawyer to recognise that the words uttered by Secretary of State during the heat and intensity of a general election campaign have now changed. It is no longer tough summary sanctions—it is all sorts of woolly, cloudy issues that must be proved in a court of law. The landlord will almost certainly have a very capable lawyer, properly funded—just as they have been in the past—yet there will be no real certainty that the tenant can fight back effectively.
  The Government's survey—and I ask the Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Sir H. Rossi) to pay attention to this — of privately owned empty properties found that only 2 per cent. of owners said that they were empty because of the Rent Acts. Are they kidding themselves; are they all wrong?
  Mr. Robin Squire: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a substantial number of people in other countries live in private rented accommodation? Do they not also face the same percentage of bad landlords?
  Mr. Soley: I am coming to precisely that point. The hon. Gentleman knows that the problem lies with housing finance. Someone who owns a house worth £50,000 can sell it, put the money in a building society as a relatively safe investment and, without too much effort, receive about £100 a week in interest—all without the hassle of being a landlord. If a house is worth £100,000—nearer the mark in London — the interest would be £200 a week. We do not need to be great mathematicians to work out the level to which rents must rise simply to break even with the return on investment in a building society. Someone who owns a house worth £50,000 must receive a rent of at least £100 a week to break even. In fact, it will probably be more than that because the owner will increase the rent slightly and then sell the house after three or four years. However, for the owner to realise his money in a house, he must have vacant possession. He will have to winkle out his tenants.
  There is another way to make a profit from renting—to go up market and rent to the really high income groups. That will certainly happen. Yet another way would be to pack a great many people into a property. An elderly man came to see me at my advice surgery about nine months ago. He was paying £70 a week for accommodation and breakfast in a cafe down the road. He was sharing a room with three other people. That is why we say that already half the rented property is outside the Rent Acts and there will be more such cases—
  Mr. Waldegrave: I am sure that it has not escaped the hon. Gentleman's attention that that lamentable case is a result of the present laws.
  Mr. Soley: I can tell the Minister the cause—it is because that sort of rental falls outwith the Rent Acts. It is also caused by the housing crisis.
  The man who came to see me, although elderly, was not old enough to fall into a category eligible for local authority help. I wanted to take up his case, but he would not allow that because he was afraid of losing what he had. There were no controls to help him and I could not offer him alternative housing. Why not? It was because the Government have cut the public housing sector by two thirds since 1979.
  The Duke of Edinburgh's report, that of the Church of England—"Faith in the City"—and just about every independent housing expert have stated clearly that we must reform the housing finance system. If I have God and the royal family on my side, the Tory party should be worried. I repeat my offer to the Government—we will talk with them about all aspects of housing finance and help them to get the necessary policy through the House, subject to two conditions. First, any new or reformed system must be fairer both within the rented and purchase systems and between the two systems. Secondly, any such system must not cause either rent or mortgage payers economic distress.
  The Government, through their combined assaults on housing benefit and rents—brought about by their cuts in grants to local authorities—have thrown almost every rent payer into financial crisis. In addition, every time that there has been an increase in the mortgage interest rate and every time that there has been a dramatic increase in unemployment, mortgage payers have been caused economic distress. At the same time, the Government have managed to distort the housing market out of all proportion to its previous state.

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  The proposal to restructure housing association finance will break up a system that has commanded all-party support. The original legislation was introduced by a Labour Government, but some of the thinking had already been done during the 1970–74 Tory Government. When the Labour party introduced legislation—albeit with amendments—it received a considerable measure of support from Conservative Members.
  Sir Hugh Rossi: My recollection is that Sir Keith Joseph, as he then was, introduced the policy in 1963, and made £3 million available to implement it.
  Mr. Soley: The key Act — the 1974 Act — was introduced—[Interruption] I am right; hon. Members can check it for themselves.
  Sir Hugh Rossi: It started in the 1960s.
  Mr. Soley: I do not dispute that the housing association movement started in the 1960s. At that time, a number of people felt that there was a need for another layer of housing provision. It was a Labour Government who recognised that the policy needed regulating and the establishment of certain basic standards, and those were introduced—
  Sir Hugh Rossi: The hon. Gentleman must surely be aware that the 1974 Act was introduced by a Conservative Government. Indeed, I was the Under-Secretary of State who dealt with it on the Floor of the House.
  Mr. Soley: The hon. Gentleman cannot be thinking of the same Act. He obviously does not know the facts. He should go away now and check. He has the time.
  The Housing Act 1974 allowed the Labour Government to introduce between 250,000 and 300,000 new tenancies. It was a Labour Government's Act, which received considerable support from the Tory party. Yet this Conservative Government now wish to introduce private finance, at a fixed level for each area, within a range of 30 per cent. to 70 per cent. As with the private sector, housing associations will be pushed up-market and will be less able to provide low-cost rented accommodation to people in need. That is why the National Federation of Housing Associations is deeply concerned that rents will have to rise dramatically.
  The alternative—and there is one—is to increase housing benefit. Of course, the Government say, "Don't worry about rent increases because housing benefit will rise to meet them." Yet this Government have cut housing benefit seven times and — as we were told by the Minister for Social Security and the Disabled a few days ago—intend to cut it again in April by £640 million, which will make 5 million families worse off. The Government might say, "No problem, we will increase housing benefit", but there is no sign that they will actually do so.
  I want to ask the Secretary of State a question, and will happily give way to him so that he can answer it immediately. What proportion of a person's net income should be paid in rent? Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that question now? It is obvious that he will not. Will he, therefore, say whether the Government are prepared to raise housing benefit, regardless of the levels to which rents rise under the free market system? Let him answer that.
  Mr. Ridley: I can answer that question. The answer is yes, subject to the three provisos that I made in my speech.
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  The hon. Gentleman would agree that if a tenant and a landlord got together and connived to double the rent in order to get the whole of it repaid in housing benefit, he would be against it. He agrees with that, I hope. Does he really think that housing benefit should be available to people who rent flats in Eaton square? No. Does he think that a single person should be put in a four-bedroomed house? No. So presumably he agrees with the provisos that we put in the Bill.
  Mr. Soley: I am even more convinced of the Secretary of State's ignorance on housing matters. For a start, any of the provisos that he has mentioned could be applied, if one does not approve of subsidy, to the mortgage income tax relief system. What is the difference? Are we going to have a rent assessment committee rushing round and checking up on the £4·5 billion a year that goes into mortgage income tax relief, of which virtually one-quarter goes to those who earn over £20,000 a year? Is the Secretary of State suggesting that we now ought to check up on all those people receiving that level of mortgage income tax relief on that sort of salary?
  I will come back in a moment to the issue of what happens to the person who will have to move out of a flat that is considered too large. The Government cannot give that assurance, not least because of that mean little provision in this Bill, clause 106, which gives an additional function to rent officers of deciding whether a person's accommodation is too large or too small. What will happen when somebody's parents die, and the rent officer finds that a house which previously had three occupants now has only one? The housing benefit level will be too high, according to the Secretary of State. We cannot have one person occupying a three-or four-bedroomed house, as he has just indicated. These people will either have to move or lose their housing benefit. That is what will happen. That is why this system is so evil and pernicious. I shall be interested to see whether the rent assessment officer goes round to see whether the Secretary of State's house is too big, if, perhaps, he was given a little too much tax rebate when receiving mortgage income tax relief, but I do not think it will happen.
  We shall see a situation which has already begun to appear. A trainee nurse will have to pay 37 per cent. of her salary in rent before qualifying for housing benefit. A qualified nurse will have to pay 48 per cent. of her net salary before she becomes eligible for housing benefit. A painter and decorator aged 35, with a wife and two children, a take-home pay of £169 a week net and a child benefit of £14·50 a week, will not qualify for housing benefit on a rent below £64·80 a week. That is 34 per cent. of his income. A pensioner couple with an occupational pension—beloved by the Government—and a total net weekly income of £106·25 will not qualify for housing benefit on rents of less than £28·81 a week, 27 per cent. of their income. If he cannot answer the other questions adequately, will the Secretary of State tell us whether he thinks that those levels, which will come into being in April next year, are acceptable? Let him give us an answer. There is no answer, so presumably they are acceptable.
  Perhaps the Secretary of State and his hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green think it too low, think that landlords are not getting enough money so they have to have more. Is it too low, is it about right or will it go up even further? We do not seem to be given an answer to that one either.

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  Whatever happened to the assured tenancies? That is the other big change. If it was a criminal offence in Britain to abuse the English language, the Secretary of State would have been hanged, drawn and quartered years ago. What he does to the English language is criminal. Assured tenancies were introduced with the idea that they would be approved by the Secretary of State or his Department. That assurance has gone. Assured tenancies are no longer assured. Yet the previous Housing Minister, the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Mr. Patten), said that we would have responsible landlords assured by a system of registration. That was the commitment of a previous Housing Minister. That too has gone. An assured tenancy is, in fact, an insecure high-rent tenancy and a shorthold assured tenancy is an insecure short let. There can be no consensus between the political parties on such a policy. We all know from reading the Bill that security of tenure has gone, not least because of the introduction of the concept of statutory periodic tenancy, which puts so many of the cards in a landlord's hands. The terms of the rent assessment committee are not binding and the landlord can too easily change the terms through the statutory periodic tenancy.
  Can hon. Members recall another great promise made by the Government to the effect that there would be continuity of tenancy? It meant that if one was looking after an elderly relative, one could stay on safely. That has gone. The elderly relative is dead and the landlord can say that the circumstances have changed. He can change the tenancy and tell the tenant to go. There is no guarantee of inheriting a family tenancy after caring for aged relatives or something of the kind. Another promise is broken.
  So the Secretary of State falls back on housing action trusts. Here is the cutting edge, but it is also the edge where the double standards come in. No veto for tenants here: they have no vote but they will be "listened to". If the consultation exercise on this Bill is anything to go by, tenants will have to be quick or it will pass them by while they are drinking a cup of tea. Ratepayers may even have to pay for the establishment of a housing action trust. That is the Government who were talking earlier this afternoon about spendthrift local authorities. They will now ask ratepayers in certain circumstances to pay to have their housing taken away from them and to have certain planning and public health powers taken away too. I pray in aid the Association of District Councils.
  The housing action trust members will be paid, so ratepayers will presumably have to subsidise them. Yet if a person is on a housing association, not only is he not paid but there must not be a conflict of interest. There is nothing in here about a conflict of interests. Are we sure that we will not have estate agents on the housing action trusts? Can we be sure? I doubt it.
  Clause 59 defines the objectives of the housing action trust, of which diversified tenures is one. No local authority tenants—they are not allowed. They are not fit people, apparently. No homeless people at all. What did the Government say on that? The consultation document said that it would not be appropriate for homeless people because that would distract it from its regenerative function. "To hell with the people, let us get our hands on the buildings and then move others in, rather like we have done in Wandsworth and Westminster."
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  The plum, the so-called jewel in the crown, is the tenant's right to choose a landlord. Labour local authorities have been allowing tenants to choose landlords for years. The difference is that they gave a veto to tenants and stipulated that the landlord must be socially responsible. That again is worthy of a little quotation from the Association of District Councils because what it says is:
  "Ballot procedures should not be weighted against a local authority. The Association does not consider the present provisions of the Bill to be even-handed."
  Why not? The Minister let it slip when opening the debate. Over 50 per cent. of the people must vote against before a takeover can be rejected. If we tried that in voting for industrial action, we would be down at the High Court before we could say "ballot box". It means that if 50 per cent. of the people vote against, with the other 50 per cent. either voting in favour or not voting at all, it can still go through. It is an iniquitous system and one which a number of others have recognised as wrong.
  Above all, why is there no right for private tenants to opt out? According to independent surveys, 89 per cent. of local authority tenants regard their landlords as satisfactory compared with 82 per cent. of private tenants. Yet the Bill allows only local authority tenants to opt out if they do not like their landlord. Private tenants will have no such right. Moreover, tenants who opt out will not be allowed to change their minds; if they find themselves with a bad landlord as a result, they will be stuck with the situation.
  The right to choose must be put into perspective. It should be on the basis of good and bad landlords, regardless of whether they are public or private, Labour, Conservative, Liberal, or whatever.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: My hon. Friend is making a first-class speech, but what makes him think that tenants will have a vote? The Bill uses the word "signified", so if 51 per cent. do not write in to say no they may be deemed to have said yes.
  Mr. Soley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The White Paper refers to voting, but my hon. Friend may well be right. Knowing the Govemment's record, we shall have to examine the small print very carefully in Committee.
  The Government should be making a major effort to give tenants real rights, whether they be in the public or the private sector, because tenants have the right to a good service. The guts of the matter is that the Secretary of State is basically against public sector housing and local democracy and, like the Government, shows utter contempt for them. The Government talk about the number of empty council properties, but only 2·3 per cent. of local authority housing stock is empty compared with 3·8 per cent. of housing association properties and 4·2 per cent. in the private sector. Moreover, the worst offenders of all are the Secretary of State and the Government, with 6·9 per cent. of Government-owned properties lying empty.
  I will give just two examples. The Metropolitan police have 3,203 properties in London, of which 573 are empty. Around Wormwood Scrubs prison there are a number of flats and houses, some of them beautiful Victorian cottages. Those properties have been empty for four years and some of the flats for nine years. The cottages would sell for at least £150,000, but the whole lot—occupied or unoccupied — are to be bulldozed to make way for

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  prison car parking and landscaping. That is a marvellous statement of the Government's priorities in an area in which the housing waiting list has risen to 10,000 people, 500 of them in bed-and-breakfast accommodation, since the Government came to office. The truth is that, along with the mess that the Government have made of housing finance, by cutting back so much on housing benefit they have devastated public sector building. In just five years, there was a cut of two thirds, from 94,000 completions in 1980 to only 33,000 in 1985. Even if the Government's policies were reversed tomorrow morning, it would take five or 10 years to get back to the situation in 1979.
  There can be no revival without a balanced housing policy. The building industry, local authorities and housing associations must be able to plan ahead, but at present that is impossible. With the Government's investment policy, not even private investors can plan ahead when they have seen the Government cut housing benefit seven times. The misery that people face, in rural and urban areas alike, but especially in the inner cities—as seen on television at Christmas when the churches go round the hostels doing their good work — is dramatically and horribly worse as a result of seven or eight years of the Government's crazy, ideologically oriented policies and, tragically, it can only get even worse.
  5.44 pm
  Mr. Ian Gow: The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) has told the House that his party is implacably opposed to the provisions of the Bill. He warned the House and the country that there could be no consensus between the two sides of the House on the basis of the Bill, but the House ought not to take that too seriously. Like many of my right hon. and hon. Friends, I remember the speech of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) opposing the right to buy which is enshrined in the Housing Act 1980. Time and again, the Labour party said that it opposed giving local authority tenants the right to buy, but eventually it followed where my right hon. Friends had led and today even the Labour party does not propose to repeal the right of tenants to buy their own houses.
  Mr. Allan Roberts: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Gow: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I am mindful of what Mr. Speaker has said about the need for short speeches.
  Mr. Roberts: When compulsory council house sales were introduced eight years ago, the basis of the Labour party's opposition and my own was the belief that if council houses were sold at a discount the best would be sold off and local authorities would be left with the worst. That has already happened. One cannot oppose the selling off of what has already been sold.
  Mr. Gow: Clearly it was a mistake to give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  My point is illustrated by what happened in the general election of 1983, when the right hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot) was leader of the Labour party. The Labour manifesto of June 1983 contained a promise to repeal the right to buy, but there was no such promise in the Labour manifesto in June 1987.1 predict that precisely the same change will take place in relation to our proposals to give public sector tenants the right to choose their landlords.
  Mr. Soley: What about private tenants?
  Mr. Gow: Twenty-eight years ago yesterday, I travelled from London to Blackpool to attend the post-general election defeat conference of the Labour party and to hear what turned out to be the last great speech of the predecessor of the right hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent — Mr. Aneurin Bevan. His words made a deep impression on my mind. As I recall it, his message was as follows: "You really cannot go before the country with a programme and tell the country that you think the programme is good for the country and immediately the country has rejected it say that you would like to alter it. It won't work. It isn't right. It is almost like saying that you put before the country a false prospectus. The programme we put before the country we believed in. We are very sorry that the electorate rejected it. We think that the electorate is going to be sorry for having rejected it. In the course of time, as years go by, as circumstances change and the issues are altered, we may find it necessary to change some part of the programme. That will not be because we thought the programme was wrong but simply because we think that it might be adjusted to altered circumstances."
  The Labour party is busily engaged in disregarding the advice that was given to it 28 years ago by one of its heroes, to whom its present leader unveiled a statue in Ebbw Vale earlier this month. I remind the Labour party of the undesirability of changing policy because one finds that it is unpopular, which is what the Labour party has done on housing policy.
  I make it clear to my right hon. Friend that I welcome most warmly the proposals in the Bill. Unlike Opposition Members, I welcome especially the right that we are giving to local authority tenants to change their landlords. On the basis of figures that I think were entirely spurious, the hon. Member for Hammersmith claimed that almost all local authority tenants are satisfied with their landlords. I advise the hon. Gentleman that, alas, that is simply not the case. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the private sector?"'] I am dealing at the moment with the public sector. I advise the hon. Gentleman that if he were to visit council tenants in London, whether they lived in houses or flats, and made his own survey, asking whether those tenants were content with their landlords, I am afraid that the reply would be depressing. Indeed, the reply would not have allowed him to make the assertion that he did earlier.
  I welcome that provision without reservation. It is a further development of our policy. Successive Governments used to believe that the criterion by which their housing policy should be judged was the number of houses and flats that they had built for letting in the public sector in perpetuity. When my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister became leader of the Conservative party, she altered our housing policy to give tenants a choice. We are now extending that choice, and that is to be warmly welcomed.
  I turn from the extension of choice so far as landlords are concerned to the private rented sector. My right hon. Friend's proposals do not go far enough. With the assured tenancy scheme, even under my right hon. Friend's proposals there will still be security of tenure. With the shorthold scheme, it will still be possible for a tenant to go to the rent officer and ultimately to the rent assessment committee to fix his rent. The desirable objectives of bringing into use accommodation that at present is not in

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  use or is under-used, of attracting new investment into building, and converting private accommodation for rent would be better served if we had said that from the date on which the Bill comes into force all future lettings will be at a rent and for a term as agreed between landlord and tenant. Although my right hon. Friend's proposals are a giant step forward, he may regard them as being only a stage towards the desirable objective of allowing landlords and tenants to agree on the rent and terms of their tenancies.
  In the White Paper, my right hon. Friend proposed to abolish the cost floor and he has explained in his speech the reason why the Bill does not contain proposals to do so. I doubt whether it would be wise to abolish the cost floor in its entirety. The present cut-off date is 31 March 1974. It would be reasonable to make that date much later, but from a public finance stance it would be unjustified to abolish it entirely. Let us suppose that a new council house is built today at a cost of £50,000 and that a tenant moves in who has been a public sector tenant for 30 years. That tenant would be able to exercise the right to buy at a 60 per cent. discount and to buy for £20,000 a house that had cost the public sector £50,000. It would be right to advance the date of the cost floor and wrong to abolish it altogether.
  My final point relates to the role of the district valuer. The district valuer is mentioned in the Bill, but there is an omission. At present, when a tenant wishes to exercise the right to buy, it is frequently the practice of the local authority to ask the district valuer at that stage his opinion of the open market value of the house or flat. If the prospective purchaser disagrees with the value placed on the house or flat by the local authority, which in the situation that I have described would have been made by the district valuer, the aggrieved would-be purchaser has the right to appeal but only to the district valuer, the very person whom the local authority asked for advice initially about the value of the house.
  I hope that when my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning replies he will assure the House that the Bill will include a provision that henceforward, if local authorities need advice — which, of course, they frequently do—before fixing the value of a house or flat which is subject to the right to buy, they should take advice from the private sector, so that there can be a genuine appellate procedure to the district valuer.
  I repeat my welcome for my right hon. Friend's Bill and wish it a speedy passage through Parliament. I urge my right hon. Friend not to take too seriously the Labour party's temporary opposition to this excellent measure.
  5.57 pm
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: I should like to make just one point about the speech of the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow). He must know that some of us have always taken the view, and continue to take the view, that the sale of council houses, especially in areas of great need, was wrong and continues to be wrong. Although the sale of council houses was included in my party's manifesto for the previous general election, I should stress that I have never agreed with that.
  Areas such as mine have terrible problems and our people have great need of homes and houses. In such areas, the sale of council houses simply removes houses from the
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  public sector and people who need homes are denied them. It may not be the case in parts of the south and in London, although I am certain that even in London there are problems regarding the sale of some houses, but when one goes round council estates in areas of high unemployment such as my area, it is terrible to see council houses up for sale when nobody can afford to buy them. Yet at the same time we have an increasing list of people in need of housing.
  I declare an interest as a member of the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians. I am a building worker by trade. When I was genuinely working for a living, creating rather than talking, I was a carpenter and joiner. I know about housing problems because when I was married at the end of the war I lived for 12 years in rooms. To begin with we lived with my parents, then with my wife's relatives and then in rooms.
  Mr. Winnick: Did they not have a house to spare?
  Mr. Heffer: They certainly did not have a house to spare and I did not know anybody with houses to spare. I know what happens. Two ladies share a kitchen or two families a bathroom. That causes tensions and terrible problems can arise. We got a home only through both of us working for years and saving a little money for a deposit to get a mortgage. Then I discovered I had an even bigger debt. When I came to the House I owed as much on the mortgage as when I first borrowed it nearly 19 years previously.
  It always amazes me that we seem to ignore realities. The Bill does not touch on what people are suffering, nor does it help them to deal with their problems. That is what worries me about these debates. Will the Bill provide even one additional home?
  Mr. Gow: Yes.
  Mr. Heffer: The hon. Gentleman was the Minister for Housing and for a while I shadowed him. He knows that despite all the assurances that we have have had from the Government since the day they came to office, for most of our people—I am not talking about those with houses to spare — problems such as overcrowding have got worse and lists have got longer. The Government want to remove public ownership, but the only real answer to housing needs is the development of local authority ownership and building.
  Earlier, we talked about rural areas. I was born and bred, not in a great urban area, but in a rural area, and I know about ordinary working people living in nice thatched cottages because I went into such homes and saw dirty floors, the lack of bathrooms and the lavvy at the end of the garden. How did people escape from that? Local authorities provided them with decent homes; no one else did. Private entrepreneurs did not come along and say, "There is a need for homes. We shall build them." There was nothing of the sort.
  The Labour party has a proud record on housing. It goes back to the days of the greatest Minister with responsibility for housing, John Wheatley, and the first minority Labour Government. He was a crackpot Left-winger, like me, and a Roman Catholic. I am an Anglo-Catholic, but he was a Christian, like me. He was deeply concerned about the needs of ordinary working people and he introduced the Bill that began the process. I do not deny that a Conservative Government started building some

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  council houses, but the process got off the ground under a Labour Government. That was the beginning of local authority housing.
  Mr. Ronnie Campbell: We built more then than now.
  Mr. Heffer: That is absolutely true. The position is deteriorating. Only a few houses are being built now compared with the many built by the Labour party in Liverpool in opposition to the Government. If those are not included in the figure, one sees that practically none are being built by local authorities. That is terrible.
  I agree with the Secretary of State on one point. Some Conservative Members have rightly pointed out that many big local authorities have not given their tenants a square deal. I do not deny that. Even in the same local authority decent houses are looked after well because tenants have an interest in keeping their gardens well and so on, but in multi-storey blocks of three or four storeys it is a different scene. Instead of talking about handing housing over to private enterprise, we should be deciding to pull down all the multi-storey blocks in every area and to replace them with nice semi-detached houses with proper facilities.
  We could learn from Liverpool city council. Although this will take a few minutes, I should like to read to the House its list of principles in developing rented housing. The document states:
  "Location
  All developments must be located in satisfactory long term housing areas, and on sites which meet the overall housing objectives of the Council. In particular, sites should be contributing to the implementation of intensive action programmes, and should be meeting the demands from needs groups identified by the Council.
  Layout"—
  this is important—
  "The following principles shall apply to all developments.

  All developments should be of houses and bungalows.

  Normally they should be built in small developments, in many cases larger sites would have to be sub-divided.

  Through streets should be provided wherever possible rather than cul-de-sacs.

  There should be no clusters of dwellings.

  Wherever possible dwellings should be faced onto already existing roads to avoid a canyon effect.

  Wherever possible developments should be semi-detached.

  Where terraces are provided they should be in short streets without back alleys and parking should be provided within the curtilage.

  The layout of a development should have a conventional road and pavement lay-out with front access to dwellings and no pedestrian/vehicular separation.

  Communal open spaces and play areas should be provided, within the development.

  Whenever sheltered accommodation is provided, it should be of two storeys only.

  That is what needs to be done. That is the right way to tackle housing. During the general election, Michael White of The Guardian happened to come to my constituency. He came round with me while I was canvassing and that sort of thing. If I remember rightly. I believe that he referred to that visit as "going to Gorky" because I had been somewhat banished in those days. He looked at the new housing built by the local authority and the private housing close to it in different parts of my constituency. He said, "The great thing, Eric, is that you cannot tell the difference." Precisely.
  In the past we went wrong. When I was on the council in Liverpool—during most of that time the Tory party was in power—we got more subsidies and more support if we built high-rise flats. That is the truth of the matter.
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  We built those high-rise flats and the Government housing figures went up. Macmillan was able to come to the House and boast about the numbers that had been built. It was disastrous. The Government were wrong and the local authorities were wrong for accepting such a policy—we were all wrong.
  Now we must get rid of such high-rise flats and do the sort of thing that that wicked Liverpool council, which is now being surcharged and whose councillors have lost their positions, has done. I am glad to say that that housing policy is being continued by the existing local authority, but, unfortunately, again without any assistance from this Government. It would be lovely if the Prime Minister and the other Ministers came to the area and forgot all their prejudices, looked at what has been done and recognised that it is not private enterprise that needs to do it. The local authorities can get things done provided they tackle it in the right way. It is true that housing management has not always been carried out in the right way. We can learn from our mistakes. It does not mean that we have to go along the road suggested by the Government.
  One point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) which I had not picked up before and which scared the daylights out of me concerned clause 106. That clause immediately made me think of my mother-in-law, who is 83 years of age. The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth) may smile, but it is no joke. I am talking about real people. My mother-in-law brought up four children, one of whom is now a university lecturer. He came from a council estate and he has a PhD and so on. What will happen to that old lady who now lives on her own? In the future she may be told that her house is too big for her and that she ought to move. My brothers-in-law have asked her to live with them and I have asked her to live with us, but she does not want to. She wants to live on her own as long as she can get around and do the things that she wants to do. She wants to live in the house in which she brought up her family. If such housing goes over to private enterprise or is forced into private enterprise, will someone come along and say, "The accommodation is too big. Out you get."? Will that sort of uncertainty hang over the heads of ordinary people? If that is so, it is the worst part of all that is in the Bill. Just about everything else about the Bill is bad anyway.
  Another thing that is important concerns what will happen if tenants ask for their properties to be taken over by landlords. Let us consider what the brief from Shelter had to say. Perhaps the Minister will get up at the end of the debate and say that Shelter is wrong, give us that assurance and write it into the Bill. That brief says:
  "Safeguards for tenants are inadequate. For example, the voting system, which will determine the outcome of any take over proposal. The proposal of a prospective landlord will go through unless at least 51 per cent. of the tenants log a specific objection. On an estate with 1,000 properties 501 tenants will have to lodge individual objections in this period. There is no 'ballot' as such and it is not at all clear what would happen if you were on holiday at the time! Objections will be lodged with the new 'landlords', i.e. there is no mechanism for ensuring that even those tenants who understand how to log an objection can be sure that their objection has been counted."
  Is that true? If so, it is in line with what was said in the White Paper, which stated that the basic objective of the Government is to:
  "introduce arrangements to allow council tenants to choose to transfer to other landlords".

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  It then went on to make clear that what the Government want to do is to diminish local authority ownership. That is the key to the Bill. They wish to make sure that local authorities do not have any role in housing. They want to hand it over to private enterprise by one means or another. In other words, the Government will be helping their friends to make even more profits out of the people than in the past. That is the reality. That is what the Bill is all about.
  What happens if such properties are handed over to private local landlords? We have all had experience of such matters. I am sure that Conservative Members, especially those who represent large cities, will accept that they have had constituents, who live in private rented properties, coming along with a problem. If those constituents do not do so they are certainly different from the constituents of Liverpool, Manchester or elsewhere. In the past, my constituents have come along to me and said, "For the past two years I have been asking my landlord to do such and such a repair. It is not a very big repair, but I am getting on in life and I cannot do it myself." Those private landlords have failed to do that repair. In such cases we have had to go to the local health authority to put pressure on those landlords to do the job. In fact, that process is not as good as it used to be because we cannot get those jobs done compulsorily and charged to the landlord as we could in the old days.
  If properties are handed over to local landlords, will there be a guarantee that they will get repairs done? Local authorities may not get repairs done as quickly as they ought, but those repairs do get done. Indeed, they are carried out by proper craftsmen. Local authorities employ proper craftsmen and also employ young apprentices to help those people. However, in the main, private landlords employ cowboy outfits. Sometimes, after they have been to do the repair, the situation is worse than it was before.
  I ask my hon. Friends—they will do so anyway—to oppose this Bill line by line, bit by bit. However, I also plead that, in the process, they do not allow the Government to keep making the agenda. I hope that we will not, once again, give way on the Government's housing policies. When it comes down to it, over the years, the Labour party's policies have proved to be the right policies. They have proved good for the mass of ordinary people. Let us get back to those policies. We must say to the Government that when they go out and we come in again we shall restore to local authorities the right to build homes for the needy in the way that we did in the past.
  6.18 pm
  Mr. David Nicholson: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for calling me to make my maiden speech in this debate on one of the most important Bills of the present Parliament.
  At the outset may I say, as a new Member, how much I recognised the sincerity and passion with which the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) spoke. May I also say how much we regret the fact that the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) was unable to open for the Opposition this afternoon because of an accident.
  It is a pleasure to pay tribute to my predecessor in the Taunton division of Somerset, Sir Edward du Cann. It is unnecessary for me to remind the House of his great
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  services to it as the founder and chairman of the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee, as a member and Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and as the chairman, for nigh on 13 years, of the 1922 Committee of Conservative Back-Bench Members. He is a good example of someone who has attained the highest distinction and service in the House without, in recent years at least, having served on either Front Bench.
  But the principal tribute to Edward comes from his constituency. No words of mine could appropriately describe the great affection in which Edward and Sallie du Cann are held in Taunton, and the gratitude and respect for his 31 years of service to his constituents. Often, the older and poorer constituents—many of whom may not have voted for him—paid the most vigorous tribute to his assiduous work on their behalf. It is sobering for a new candidate to be told at such length on so many doorsteps how highly the constituents valued his predecessor's work and how much they expected of him. This was said in broad Somerset accents which I, as a Lancastrian, will not confuse the House by attempting to quote.
  The Taunton division of Somerset resembles in shape, although not in size, a tadpole. The head—the centre of the population — is on the east side, and the tail stretches to the highest point of Exmoor. Of my electors, 71,000 live in the borough of Taunton Deane and only 4,000 live in the wide, sparsely populated area of west Somerset, the responsibility for representing which I share with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
  Taunton is without doubt the most beautiful and varied constituency that it is possible to represent. There is Taunton itself and Wellington, a most elegant small town which has been through difficulties in recent years with manufacturing industry but which now faces the future with great confidence. Two other small towns are Wiveliscombe and Dulverton, and there is a host of villages with glorious names such as Bishops Lydeard, Hatch Beauchamp, North Curry, and Combe Florey—the home of Evelyn, and now of Auberon, Waugh.
  The foundation of my constituency's prosperity was agriculture and wool. The communal and individual fortunes made in the 14th and 15th centuries led to the skyline of Taunton Deane being studded with splendid church towers which are typical of that period. Some of their interiors were not enhanced by Victorian modernisers, but our parish church of St. Nicholas, Brushford, not only retains a 15th century screen, but has a 20th century side chapel designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens, who was the grandfather of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. Within the side chapel lie the tomb and effigy of a modern knight recumbent with puttees and pith helmet. That is Aubrey Herbert, "the man who was Greenmantle" and sometime Conservative Member of this House for the Yeovil division, now temporarily in partibus infidelibus. Some hon. Members will be aware that Aubrey Herbert spent much of his time in the Balkans and was known as the "uncrowned king of Albania."
  To this day, agriculture remains important—dairying, beef and sheep on Exmoor. I hope to contribute to future agricultural debates, Mr. Speaker, if I succeed in catching your eye.
  Taunton is a growth point. It attracts a mixture of industry and people from all parts of the country. This, and its comparatively low and falling unemployment, is

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  due to the expansion of retail, commercial, professional and high-tech business, especially close to the M5 motorway or on the many industrial estates. Those developments have implications for housing, which is the subject of this debate. Indeed, last Thursday, today and tomorrow the House is debating the three issues which were most important to my constituents during the recent general election campaign and which remain important—health, housing and education. Each of those issues is concerned with meeting social requirements by the provision of adequate resources, the efficient use of those resources and effective partnership between the public and private sectors.
  I welcome the Bill for two reasons. First, it is long-awaited. It is vital to the revival of the privately rented sector, the efficient use of our housing stock and the encouragement of geographical mobility of the labour force. Almost precisely 20 years ago, when I was a civil servant at the Department of Employment, I was the secretary of a small group which examined the geographical mobility of workers. That was at a time when we had 600,000 people unemployed and a much more rigid economy than we have now. There has been very little movement during those 20 years.
  My second reason is that the Bill has been pioneered largely by my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning. He has been a personal friend for about 22 years, and his family home is in the historic county of Somerset, which is now, alas — the House will understand my use of a French revolutionary administrative expression—in the département of Avon. I pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning and my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Mr. Patten), who is now a Minister of State at the Home Office, in developing and designing the proposals contained in the Bill.
  I am glad to have the assurance of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the best local authorities will continue to play a significant role in housing provision and organisation. Taunton Deane borough council vigorously supports the right-to-buy legislation and has sold 2,200 homes from a total stock of 10,700. However, nearly 40 per cent. of the letters that I receive relate to housing issues — mainly the housing or rehousing of people in some need. I pay tribute to the supremely civilised and efficient way in which Taunton Deane council tries to extract a quart from a pint pot. The high standards that it establishes will set high standards for the private sector, which will need to compete. I know that Taunton Deane works and will work closely with the housing association movement.
  In west Somerset, there are special problems with a sparsely populated rural area, low-paid residents and house prices being forced up by the purchase of retirement and second homes. That problem was well expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Morrison) and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
  Taunton Deane and West Somerset councils were alarmed by the cost floor proposals in the White Paper, and I was pleased to hear the Secretary of State say that the Government may reconsider this. I hope so, because it goes against the long-established local government tradition that an asset must not be sold for less than its value.
  I commend the Bill to the House, but I add this. It is the highest honour and duty to which an Englishman—
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  a British citizen—can aspire to be a Member of this House. That honour and duty carry with them the obligation to further the interests of one's constituents and to use one's judgment on the great issues of the day. Sometimes, the furtherance of those interests and the exercise of that judgment will not be entirely convenient to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench, but I hope that this and future contributions from me will find merit and favour in the House.
  6.30 pm
  Mr. Simon Hughes: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "This House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which, although it increases legal protection for private sector tenants from harassment by landlords, extends the role of housing associations ad increases their opportunity to obtain finance from the private sector, and gives an opportunity for some council tenants to choose to change their landlords, does not address the scandal of the record high level of homelessness in Britain, will disadvantage tenants in the housing association and private rented sectors by causing higher rents through phasing out of the Rent Acts without guaranteeing adequate income support for many on low or modest incomes, will undermine local democracy through the establishment of Housing Action Trusts that are not accountable to local voters, and will not provide for the increase in public investment in housing needed to help to ensure dry, well-maintained and affordable homes for all."
  Before addressing the Bill, may I welcome the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) and thank him for his contribution—in particular for his generous tribute to his long-serving and greatly respected predecessor. All hon. Members greatly respected someone who often made being a Back Bencher a far more eminent position than that of a Front Bencher. The predecessor of the hon. Member for Taunton served, as he rightly said, long before I and many other hon. Members came to the House, but he set a standard that the House follows, and will follow, for many years. He was certainly one of the great contributors, and, clearly, the new hon. Member for Taunton will try to follow in that tradition of independence and respect for the constituents whom he serves.
  I welcome the hon. Gentleman especially because he represents the other England. His constituency and mine are about as far apart in type as one could imagine. His is a rural, cider-drinking, agricultural, sun-filled Somerset constituency—
  Mr. Soley: They do not drink much cider in Bermondsey.
  Mr. Hughes: Indeed not.
  My constituency, on the other hand, is an inner-city area that suffered in the blitz and has been rebuilt. I guess, although I have not checked, that the percentages of private and public housing are probably mirror images in the two constituencies, too. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join us in contributing to the patchwork of debate here, to ensure that legislation produced by any Government is improved by the contributions of Back Benchers and Members of other parties. The hon. Gentleman may have immediately earned his reward from this debate by finding himself nominated to serve on the Committee that considers the Bill, thereby earning his spurs.
  Housing is as much as ever a crucial issue for Britain in 1987. Britain has two fundamental housing needs upon

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  which I hope that we all agree. The first is the need for increased investment to keep our housing stock in the state in which it should be; and the second—perhaps more dramatic and unusual — is to meet the exceptional amount of homelessness in our country. Never before have so many people presented themselves as homeless. To be without a home is to be deprived of one's most fundamental right, and that is something that we should try to address.
  One must wonder about how certain the Government are of their way forward, given the fits and starts that accompanied the introduction of the Bill. The consultation period was not finished—in some respects—before the Bill was published. One of the dates by which responses were sought was 4 December and we ain't there yet. Secondly, this is a Bill that perhaps should or should not have been published in whole or in part and that had to be republished. When it was published, we saw that it had not apparently taken into account any of the responses made on many of the issues that resulted from consultation. On most issues, the proposals in the Bill are identical to what was proposed in the White Paper, and in consultation papers after that.
  The Bill's strategy is to try to deal with the housing problems perceived by the Government in a way that I believe all Opposition parties consider wrong. The Government have chosen to make empty properties available by raising rents, which is a strategy that will inevitably increase, rather than decrease, homelessness. Tenants moving from fair-rent tenancies will have no choice but to go to open-market rent tenancies, to use the Government's phrase, instead of enjoying fair and affordable rents. That means that, with some exceptions, people will have to pay more, and some will not be able to afford it.
  When I intervened to ask the Secretary of State a question during his opening speech, he spoke of those who will be covered by housing benefit, and entered three provisos. I accept that his statement about those who are covered by housing benefit is properly qualified by those provisos, and I do not quibble with them. My concern is for all those who will probably not qualify for housing benefit, who are just above the threshold for help and for whom rented accommodation — particularly, but not exclusively, in London — will rise in price, when it is already beyond their reach. Such people—they may be drivers, teachers, nurses or people in other jobs — run the risk of discovering that the Bill will make it more difficult for them to find housing, while landlords will obtain a better income from rent. So the issues of security and affordability are at the heart of the Bill.
  We have a right to be suspicious of the motives of the private sector. In most cases, it is principally seeking an investment—not to provide good housing. That is why I am sad that, for example, the Government have not accepted that all private sector rented accommodation should be licensed in future, and that there should be continued supervision by those who are publicly accountable to ensure that the private sector, however big or small — it has decreased, and will not, I suppose, greatly increase — will be properly monitored and controlled.
  The nature of the legislation harks back to legislation proposed in the past. One of the feelings after the Rent Act
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  1957 was that the Government had legislated not principally on the basis of an understanding of the effect of decontrol on the poor tenant, but on the basis of their belief in their political philosophy. The problem is that people do not behave as responsibly as any Government might wish, and the Bill does not protect tenants—as it should—against irresponsible behaviour by landlords.
  Part II of the Bill deals with housing associations. In general, I welcome the extension of their role, and the Government's intention that they should do more. Housing associations are clearly a sector that have proved their worth. My concern is that the Government appear to be moving them from the public—as defined in the past — to the private sector. The housing association sector has always wanted to be in the third arm of housing — the voluntary sector, between the public and the private, but not of either. I hope that by the end of the Bill's passage we shall have sustained the independence of that sector and truly enabled it to grow and flourish.
  The Government had the good fortune of the announcement last week by Nationwide Anglia, which has featured in every speech by every Department of Environment Minister that I have heard since then—[AN HON. MEMBER: "It should be welcomed."] Yes, it should. It was worthwhile and good. There were comments not just by politicians but by respected writers in the press, particularly over the weekend, suggesting that the private sector might not respond so willingly in all cases. The private sector will need a substantial return on capital to come into many of the areas that desperately need investment. My colleagues and I remain to be convinced that it will come into many areas to provide low-cost housing for rent, which is the desperate need in many of our urban and rural areas.
  Mr. Waldegrave: I welcome the hon. Gentleman's helpful remarks. He was right to welcome that announcement by Nationwide Anglia. Perhaps he also welcomes, as I do, the announcement today by the private sector body sponsored by the Housing Corporation, the Housing Finance Corporation, that it will raise about £2 billion for housing associations over the next few years from the private market. That will go a long way to meet some of the understandable anxieties expressed by the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Hughes: I welcome that. I make no bones about it—if money can be produced for the housing association sector, that is to be welcomed, because normally it has better, more local and more responsive housing management. Its track record is good. It has also produced a variety of housing management to meet different needs in different parts of the country, and for different sectors—sheltered housing, housing for the disabled and young people, and so on. I welcome that.
  I say honestly to the Minister that I hope that the private sector can be encouraged—I am happy to do my bit—to support that sector of housing. If it can grow, many of the fears that I and others have will be alleviated, and we shall see a flourishing third arm. I hope that the Minister will not push housing associations formally into the private sector, and that they will be able to retain their independence.
  Housing action trusts are the third substantial proposal in the Bill. The Minister was in my borough recently and knows well the horrendous problems that boroughs such

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  as Southwark have, created by the legacy of system-built and standard-built housing that went up during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, for reasons that we all know. Therefore, I do not object to private money and Government money coming to rescue what local authorities cannot rescue themselves. There is no doubt that, with the present Government's policies, they cannot rescue it themselves. But I hope sincerely that efforts are made for the trusts to be partnership enterprises.
  My objection to the Bill, and that of my colleagues, is that the trusts are not designed to be a vehicle for partnership funding between local authorities and central Government. That is the way in which it should have been done. It should have been a structure for both sources of finance, to rescue some of our worst and most rundown estates. It is because of the lack of engagement of the local authorities and local people that we object to housing action trusts. If the Government get the Bill through the House, it will be in the interests of local authorities to co-operate rather than not to, and I hope that they will do that, but I hope that we can persuade the Government to adopt a change in attitude to allow partnership with local authorities as well.
  The final substantial part of the Bill is the opting out, rent-a-landlord, choose-one's landlord or change-one's landlord section—the titles are varied. Soon after his appointment, the Minister for Housing and Planning said:
  "We need a diversity of ownership which will give tenants the right to choose their landlords rather than the other way way round."
  I fear that that is not what will happen. It is not inevitable, if the Minister thinks about it. I fear that landlords will choose an estate, but tenants will not have the choice. In many cases, they will be limited, if there is a choice at all, to the landlord or prospective landlord who is interested in their estate. There are many problems connected with voting in, voting out, whether the result is more than 50 per cent., and getting approval. There will be problems if the majority vote to have a new landlord, and some opt back. There is great concern that what, in theory, is a good idea—the freedom to go to somebody who may manage one's home better—may not turn out well in practice. Much local authority housing, like much private rented housing, is badly managed, and tenants are trapped in badly managed accommodation that nobody should ask them to live in. It may not be the solution that one would hope for.
  I hope that we can ensure that there is not the same risk as there has been, for example, with the right to buy. People have bought their homes and found that the service charges are expensive. They then realise that they have taken on something that represents a step into the unknown and is much more dangerous than they had expected or wished.
  The Bill is intended to change the face of rented housing in all sectors—public, voluntary and private. But with housing action trusts and opting out, the Bill will subject public housing to the final stage of what has often been the Thatcherite programme for the public services. Public housing will be underfunded, demoralised, criticised and privatised. That is the great danger. We shall continue to need public sector housing in the foreseeable future, particularly for the poorest in our community, and there is a danger that it will now even get less of the cake than it has had in recent years.
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  My colleagues in the Liberal party welcome the element of increased choice for tenants, but the Bill offers just a once-for-all, one-way choice, for council tenants only— and in practice, not even for all of them. We have long advocated an increased role for the voluntary sector and housing association movement, but their intended future in the private sector is something that they and we should be gravely unhappy about.
  My main criticism is that I am certain that the Government's plans will mean higher rents. The explanatory and financial memoranda make that clear. With the Tory cuts of recent years and the housing budget more than any other set to continue to decline, the Bill will do little for the low-paid and the poorly paid.
  We have tabled an amendment, which you have selected, Mr. Speaker. It expresses concern about the major defects of the Bill. If it is not passed by the House, we shall have to vote against the Bill because it does not meet the principal housing needs in Britain today.
  6.47 pm
  Mr. John Heddle (Mid-Staffordshire): I agree with the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) on one point, and that is the distinction with which my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) made his maiden speech. He spoke with considerable eloquence about our former colleague, Sir Edward du Cann. The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey rightly referred to the fact that he was an eloquent spokesman for the rights of Back Benchers.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Taunton painted an eloquent word picture of one of the most beautiful parts of the United Kingdom. Were it not for the fact that we know that he will be nursing and attending to the needs of his own constituents in the same way as his distinguished predecessor did, so that it will remain a safe Conservative seat, I can assure my hon. Friend that we should be down there post haste giving him mutual aid in the highways and byways of west Somerset.
  Those of us who knew my hon. Friend in a previous incarnation not many yards from here will know that he will bring to this Chamber and to the work of the House independence, and the House will respect that. As he identified in his speech, he is an honourable Member who has a view, a feel, a touch and a sympathy for the matters of the day and the interests of his constituency. I and, I know, my right hon. and hon. Friends will look forward greatly to his future contributions.
  I declare three interests: first, I started my working life as an articled clerk in a firm of chartered surveyors, collecting rents every Monday morning; secondly, I am a consultant to a firm of surveyors who, as far as I am aware, do not act for any residential interests, nor for any building societies, but they might in the future; and, thirdly, I am a non-remunerated vice-president of the Building Societies Association. I welcome the part of this Bill that will give the building societies' pension funds and private sector the confidence to invest long term and responsibly, to provide for the needs, wants and rights of those who deserve to rent.
  I was impressed by the contribution of Mr. Tim Melville-Ross, the chief general manager and director of the Nationwide Anglia building society, in his interview on the "Money Box" programme on BBC4 this morning. He answered all the fears and concerns of Opposition Members. The building societies see political stability in

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  the Government, who are not hidebound by political dogma, and can foresee the time when their investment of £600 million in flats and houses to rent in the inner cities, in particular in Glasgow, in partnership with local authorities and the Government, will help to regenerate the inner cities and provide decent homes for those who live in them.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton said—this point was not referred to in the speech of any Opposition Member—a large proportion of people now live in housing over which they have the right of security, but they do not have the privilege of mobility. Those who live in local authority rented accommodation are static and do not have the same opportunity as owner-occupiers to move about to seek work. By liberalising the rented sector, they will have a better opportunity to do that.
  I am not convinced that local authorities are the most compassionate and feeling landlords. When I spent Monday mornings on my bicycle in a town in east Kent collecting rents, I was the landlord's representative, the link between the tenant and the landlord. If the tenant wanted a repair done, he knew that I would be his messenger to the landlord. There is no doubt that the rent roll of local authorities has become more computerised and the landlord and rent collector have given way to the district housing office, so the tenant has become alienated and isolated from the landlord. I wonder whether this poor management is the reason why some £250 million is owing by local authority tenants to their landlords. I wonder whether this is the reason why many local authorities keep houses empty for three months, six months, or 12 months. [Interruption.] The Library can confirm to Opposition Members who are intervening from a sedentary position that over 30,000 houses in the ownership of local authorities have been left empty for well over 12 months.
  Mr. Paul Boateng: Does the hon. Member have any comment to make to, or any message of compassion or concern for, people who are the victims of the record number of mortgage repossessions by building societies at this time?
  Mr. Heddle: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I am referring to rent arrears and voids and to the mismanagement of local authority properties. I am not entirely convinced that local authorities are the best estate managers. The Bill will enable other organisations—building societies, pension funds, insurance companies and other approved landlords — to contribute to much-needed accommodation for those who deserve to rent. That is why I welcome in the Bill the opportunity for housing associations to borrow on the investment value of the portfolios they have built up over the past 20 or 25 years in the open market. That seems to me to make sound commercial common sense.
  Mr. Paul Flynn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Heddle: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I am sure he will catch Mr. Speaker's eye in the not too distant future.
  I sound a word of warning to the Minister, and I would be grateful if he could find time to reply in his speech tonight. Thirty years ago there was a certain Peter
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  Rachman, and it is incumbent upon every hon. Member, in particular those who serve on the Standing Committee of the Bill, to ensure that the likes of Mr. Peter Rachman do not occur again. One such gentleman on the national housing stage has received some notoriety in the press recently and has received the attention of the courts. I refer to a Mr. Hoogstraten. I do not wish to dwell upon the details of Mr. Hoogstraten or his string of companies, but I understand that if a local authority serves upon him a public health notice or notice under the Housing Act, he transfers that property into another company and so eliminates his liability for the repairs, the public health notice, or whatever.
  I ask my hon. Friend to consider that, in the past 18 months, the House has passed the Companies Act, which imposes a personal duty upon directors of companies. Should they fail to comply with the conditions of the Act, they are personally liable in the magistrates' courts. I wonder whether it would be possible to bring in at the Committee stage a condition to protect tenants, to ensure that if a landlord exploits tenants or in some way denies their rights, the directors and officers of the company would be liable, as they are under the Companies Act 1986.
  In conclusion, the Housing Act, introduced by the first Administration of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, brought in the tenants' charter and gave to tenants the same rights and security that private sector tenants had long enjoyed. Included in the tenants' charter was the right for tenants to take in lodgers and sub-tenants. On Fridays and Saturdays in the advice bureau in my Mid-Staffordshire constituency, I see a large number of single people who will never acquire the key of their own council house while they remain single because they will not attain the requisite number of points. But I am sure that they would be happy to have the sub-tenancy of a house that is too large for a long-term local authority tenant. I do not believe that local authorities, whether controlled by Conservatives, Labour or Liberal, are doing enough to pursue the benefits of the tenants' charter. That is why the housing lists in many hon. Member's constituencies are theoretically and technically as long as they are.
  I welcome the Bill. It is imaginative. Home ownership is rising and will continue to rise because that is what the majority of hon. Members' constituents want; the independence and security of home ownership. But some will never be able to aspire to that privilege. We must ensure that they have a similar right to rent, and the Bill will go a long way down that path.
  6.59 pm
  Mr. Tom Pendry: In line with your wishes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall be brief. I congratulate the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) on his maiden speech. I do not wish to embellish his remarks on the beauty of his constituency, because my vivid recollection from Taunton is of watching my county of Kent being thrashed by Somerset. However, I had a pleasant lunch in the village of Combe Florey. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will continue to make contributions to our debates in line with the standard set by his maiden speech.
  The proposals in the Bill are complex and wide-ranging and certainly the most blatant and direct attack to date on private and public housing provisions. For this Government, that is saying a lot. The Bill is largely based

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  on unsubstantiated dogma, rather than on any analysis of real housing problems. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) said, it contains no references to housing needs or to the homeless. I remember that, as a young councillor on Paddington council in the early 1960s, along with my fellow Labour councillors I tried to expose the activities of a certain Peter Rachman. He has already been mentioned many times in the debate, and I suspect that he will be mentioned many more times. Despite our attempts to expose him, probably Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice-Davies did more to bring the activities of this man to the notice of the nation.
  If enacted, this turgid Bill will make Rachmanism the law of the land. It is clear that the effects of part I relating to the private sector will reduce the security of tenure that is available to tenants. At the same time, it will reduce the amount of housing benefit — despite the lukewarm assurances given by the Secretary of State. Higher market rents will replace fair rents and no doubt there will be profiteering by unscrupulous landlords. The new Rachmans will use this legislation to harass tenants and to gain possession, because landlords will no longer need to be approved.
  This legislation will inflict horrific damage on the private sector. Many of my hon. Friends have a good deal of private sector housing provision in their constituencies and they will develop that point as the debate proceeds. I shall concentrate on the effects that the Bill will have on many thousands of my constituents who are in public housing. They are typical of millions of people throughout Britain.
  Tameside council is in my constituency and the real housing problems there are shown by a few short statistics. They are that 72 per cent. of all council tenants are already on housing benefit, that 9,142 people are on the waiting list for houses, and that 9,664 tenants are in rent arrears with the local council. There are over 1,200 homeless families. When those constituents heard that a new housing Bill was on the way, their expectations must have risen. They will soon be disappointed when they hear about this debate.
  The Bill will redistribute homes away from the very people who need them to those who can afford to buy homes—even the spare home, about which the Secretary of State spoke. New homes will not materialise as a result of this Bill. With council house building at its lowest point since the 1920s, it was probably too much to hope that the Government would do anything other than make the situation worse. The Government attack what they see as the profligacy of responsible Labour councils that subsidise council house rents. In my area, the annual subsidy is £1·6 million. That saves the poorest members of the community about £1·60 per week in rent. Controls on such council spending will put yet another tax on the least fortunate members of society.
  The financial basis for transferring council houses to new landlords or to housing action trusts is the latest Government jumble sale of public property, and it is worrying. In Tameside, houses will transfer at an average investment value of £2,800. This will give the new landlord plenty of rope with which to induce council tenants with short-term sweeteners before they are hanged by that same rope. While the sale goes on, the debt charges are left with the council and will have to be paid by a decreasing number of tenants. Is the Government's final solution to
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  housing problems the imposition of extortionate rents upon the most needy, including the elderly and the disabled and those who are unable to transfer?
  On Friday, hopefully, a number of hon. Members will present petitions to the House and I hope to have some petitioners from my constituency who believe that the housing crisis can be resolved by joining the campaign for homes and jobs. For every job created in the construction industry, another job is created in the wider economy. There are about 500,000 building workers on the dole and each one costs £2,400 a year in social security benefits and lost taxes. Therefore, the answer to the crisis is blindingly obvious to my constituents and, I suspect, to the Secretary of State's constituents. Why do the Government continue to ignore that?
  I am happy to see and hear that opposition to the Bill is mounting and that it is coming from many unexpected quarters—including some Tories in the House and many more outside, and from many people who would normally support the Tory party. They realise that the Bill is based on sheer political dogma at the public expense. The dogma of home ownership at any price is being forced on them at a time when many people's ability to pay has been seriously impaired. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng) said, that is instanced by the 700 per cent. rise since 1979 in mortgage defaulters.
  The dogma is that private landlords are in some way better than council landlords, but there is no mention of the fact that since 1980 local authorities have been forced by the Government to increase rents by about 40 per cent. over inflation. We also have the dogma of Tory choice. However, it is choice for the rich and the profit-seeking landlords while the low-paid, the unemployed and the disabled will have no choice and in many cases will have no home because of this legislation.
  Opposition to the Bill is growing. I have been in the House for over 17 years and I recently addressed the largest meeting that I have ever seen in my constituency. It is quite clear that tenants' groups are beginning to realise what the Bill means for them because there was a massive meeting on the Hattersley estate. Opposition is growing in my constituency and, I suspect, in the constituency of every hon. Member. I hope that the Bill will be amended in Committee and in the other place. At the end of the day, it should be amended out of sight, because that is what it deserves.
  7.8 pm
  Mr. Andrew Hargreaves: In my first contribution to the House, I hope that the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) will forgive me if I do not follow exactly the line of his argument. I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to catch your eye in this debate which is of special relevance to the constituency of Birmingham, Hall Green, which I have the honour to represent.
  For those hon. Members who are unfamiliar with Hall Green, I can tell them that it is an urban constituency of a primarily residential nature that stretches along the southern perimeter of Birmingham, the second great city of Britain. It is a constituency of contrasts. For the visitor approaching from Stratford in the south, it presents one of the most attractive tree-lined entry routes in the city of Birmingham. On the other hand, to the visitor approaching from the Bromsgrove or Alcester direction along the A435 a very different atmosphere presents itself.

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  Decaying tower blocks stand like sentinels to remind the visitor of the municipal madness that spawned their creation. These tower blocks—many of them shoddily built with faulty materials to faulty designs and badly maintained — cost almost as much as conventional housing to put up because of their height and they have cost an arm and a leg in repairs ever since. Matters have been made worse by the fact that the local council has failed to defray any of those costs back to the original erring builders and contractors.
  Unfortunately, in my constituency, faulty design and faulty materials are not restricted to tower blocks. The owners of Smiths' houses will readily testify to that. At this point, I pay a special tribute to my predecessor, Sir Reginald Eyre, who served my constituents with diligence and distinction for 22 years. I know that hon. Members on both sides of the House remember his years in this place with great affection. His contributions on the subject of housing will be remembered well by my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench. A special tribute should be paid to his efforts on behalf of Smiths' homeowners, for whom he worked with great diligence. By his efforts, Smiths' houses officially received designated status under the Housing Defects Act. As I hope to take up the mantle laid down by him and to continue to strive for those who have to live in substandard accommodation, whether in the rented or in the private sector, I am grateful to have an opportunity to speak in this debate.
  Although Hall Green is on the perimeter of the city of Birmingham, it has many of the housing problems normally associated with inner cities. It has an unusually large concentration of council estates, made up of tower blocks and conventional housing. Many of the estates are in an appalling state of repair — particularly in the Partons road and Dawberry hall areas.
  I take issue with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) who implied that few of his constituents complained about council housing because 40 per cent. of the letters in my mail bag every morning come from tenants in the council housing sector. If the hon. Gentleman does not believe that council administrations are at fault in the management of their estates, let him come to Birmingham.
  The examples that I have chosen illustrate the repeated failure of council administrations to manage, repair and improve their housing stock. Therefore, I particularly welcome parts II, III and IV of the Bill. They deal with the enlargement of the scope for housing associations, the setting up of housing action trust areas—I put in a plea for my constituency to be considered for a pilot scheme—and the option, which is only an option for council house tenants to transfer their properties to landlords who can better demonstrate an ability to refurbish, repair and manage their tenanted accommodation.
  Parts II, III and IV of the Bill will be of enormous benefit to my constituents in Hall Green. I have described the number of complaints that come from them about the management of local council properties. I am certain that the Bill will greatly help them and I therefore support it.
  7.13 pm
  Mr. David Winnick: My first job is to congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves) on an eloquent maiden speech. I
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  am sure that he will contribute to many debates in the House. I must warn him that in future we may find it necessary to criticise some of his remarks—and perhaps even to intervene in one of his speeches. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman, although there were obviously some parts of his speech with which I disagree. I would also pay tribute to his predecessor, whom I have known here for a number of years and who was known as a very hard-working Member of Parliament.
  Mr. Allan Roberts: He was a wet.
  Mr. Winnick: Indeed, he was something of a wet, and we shall see whether his successor is a wet.
  There is an acute housing crisis in this country. Far too many families are forced to live in squalid conditions in bed-and-breakfast hostels. We have long waiting lists, in my local authority area as elsewhere. Many people are waiting to be housed for the first time and many of the families living in multi-storey blocks, some of them with two children, now have to wait years to be allocated a house by the council. Local authorities are unable to undertake a substantial amount of the repair work that is needed because of the cuts described by my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley).
  The Bill does not have much relevance to any of those problems. It is more relevant to the Government's continuing vendetta against the rented public sector, which they are again trying to undermine.
  However, the Bill represents a positive response to those Conservative Members who have long urged the Government to do away with existing rent controls and regulations in the private sector. In the last Paliament, a number of Conservative Members attempted to bring in ten-minute Bills to do away with existing protection in the privately rented sector. On most occasions, if not all, I was the Labour Member who successfully defeated the measures. I was able to do so because Ministers were under an unofficial Whip not to vote. They did not want to give the country any indication that if they won the election they intended to do what some of their Back Benchers were urging them to do. One of the most enthusiastic supporters of a change in the Rent Act regulations was, of course, the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow).
  Under the Bill, council tenants are to be encouraged to find alternative landlords. Why tenants should wish to place themselves at the tender mercies of private landlords and property companies escapes me entirely, especially as such tenants would be on assured tenancies and thus subject to the payment of market rents. I cannot imagine many genuine housing associations being interested in taking over council dwellings. The aim is clearly to transfer properties from the public to the privately rented sector. That is the purpose of the so-called tenants' choice. The Bill provides no such right for private tenants who decide that they want to opt out. No one can be surprised at the absence of such a provision from the Bill, which excludes local authorities from being designated approved landlords for the purpose of the provision allowing tenants to choose an alternative landlord.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) was right about the voting system, if it can be described as such, which would mean a sort of Russian style democracy in action. I am sure that my hon. Friends will want to pursue that point carefully in Committee.
  The purpose of the proposed housing action trusts is to take over local authority housing in a given area and then,

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  in due course, to pass it on to other landlords and not back to the local authority. Clause 57 requires the Secretary of State to consult the local housing authority and residents before such a transfer can take place, but that is all. There is no question in this case of any voting whatever. The Secretary of State makes up his mind and that is that, no matter how much opposition there is from tenants or the local authority. The Secretary of State simply introduces statutory instruments and the housing action trust can take over the property.
  Who will be appointed to the bodies? In the main, it will be business people. There will be no democratic accountability and there will be no guarantee that the people appointed will have any knowledge of housing.
  The day-to-day job of rehousing people in the ordinary process and of dealing with homelessness will not go to the proposed housing action trusts; it will remain with the local authorities, which will have all the remaining problems.
  Mr. Boateng: But not the money.
  Mr. Winnick: Yes, my hon. Friend is right to say that they will not receive the money either.
  The Government are determined to replace the role of the elected local authority, in nearly all cases Labour-controlled. Where the Government feel that they can get away with it, they abolish the local authority as they did the Greater London council. What concerns me and my right hon. and hon. Friends is that increasingly democratic accountability is being eroded and undermined. That happened with the urban development corporations and will happen again with the housing action trusts. That is totally wrong and is just one reason, among many others, why the Bill should be opposed.
  In response to my intervention earlier the Secretary of State admitted, perhaps for the first time in his life, that mistakes had been made during the introduction of the Rent Act 1957. Of course, many of the claims now being made about this Bill in relation to a revival of the private rented sector were made when the 1957 Rent Bill was passing through the House. It was said by the then Minister that the 1957 legislation would revive the privately rented sector and deal with many of the outstanding problems in housing. However, the result of the 1957 Act was a substantial reduction in the amount of rented accommodation and it led to the abuses that have caused such outrage in the country. Even the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Heddle), who is known for his enthusiasm about the private rented sector, warned about the possibility of another bout of Rachmanism.
  I am perhaps one of the few Members who happened to be a member of a local authority when the 1957 Act was in operation. Even with all the problems we had to face then we decided to rehouse the people, who were being evicted, lawfully, under the 1957 Act. I have some knowledge of what happened under that legislation and of the misery that was caused as a result of Tory dogma. The Secretary of State has a great deal of cheek to refer to dogma in the Labour party when it was Tory dogma that led to the 1957 Act and it is Tory dogma that is responsible for this proposed legislation.
  In the private rented sector the emphasis is on market rents and such rents will undoubtedly be higher than would be the position if a mortgage were being paid. Also, a person paying a mortgage would obtain tax relief. The
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  Evening Standard of 9 November contained some advertisements for rented accommodation and I shall quote some of the rents being asked. There were some houses available, not many, for rents ranging from £130 to £240 a week. One or two-bedroom flats were available from £30 to £70 a week. Undoubtedly, such rent levels would be much higher under this Bill.
  We are concerned on this side with people who cannot find rented accommodation, cannot afford a mortgage or are living with their families in bed-and-breakfast hostels. How many of those people could afford the rents I have just quoted? Is there any indication that such rents would be lower? Of course, as I have said, if anything, rents will be higher as a result of the proposed legislation.
  How many tenants would be able to claim housing benefit in order to pay such exorbitant rents? Housing benefit is being substantially reduced. Rent officers will assess how far the rents being paid are unreasonable, but only for the purpose of deciding whether housing benefit should be paid, not to decide whether the rent should be lower. The rent officer will have no such power any longer. Is it desirable for large public subsidies to be paid to private landlords in order for them to charge what would undoubtedly be exorbitant rents, certainly in areas of acute housing shortage?
  The Secretary of State denied that existing tenants would be in any danger. He said that they are protected and that there is no question of existing tenants in the private sector being in any difficulty. However, it is interesting to note that the Secretary of State emphasised the powers in the Bill against harassment. It is interesting too that the White Paper said:
  "It is important that existing tenants whose Rent Act rights will be preserved should be protected against the minority of landlords who may be prepared to harass them in order to obtain vacant possession and to relet at higher rents."
  Is that not an indication of the fact that even the Government recognise that existing private tenants may well be at risk from the activities of property companies and landlords who know that if the tenants who are at present under regulated tenancies are forced out the accommodation can be relet at market rents?
  Rachmanism — it was not just one unscrupulous person by any means — came about as a result of landlords knowing that if an existing tenant could be forced out, the place could be sold off with vacant possession at a much higher price or relet at deregulated rents. That was the incentive for Rachmanism. I say to the Secretary of State today that the same incentive exists as a result of the measure he is introducing. Many existing tenants have every reason to feel anxiety and fear that if the Bill becomes law their position as tenants will be greatly undermined.
  The Minister who replies to the debate will of course say that there are powers in the Bill to deal with the activities of unscrupulous landlords or property companies. I agree such powers will be introduced but they will not be sufficiently effective. It may well be that they will not be used in many cases. It will be difficult to charge directors of large property companies who may use a third party to carry out their dirty work. Even if charges are brought and fines are applied by the courts, in nine cases out of 10 the tenant being pressured and intimidated out of their accommodation will not be allowed back inside

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  those premises. Therefore, as my hon. Friends have been saying, we have every reason to fear the consequences of the Bill.
  On the matter of security of tenure, I agree that there is a difference between this Bill and the Rent Act 1957. Under the 1957 Act security of tenure did not exist for new tenancies. It continues to exist under this Bill. However, although security of tenure will continue to exist in law for assured tenancies, it will be largely undermined as a result of the market rents. Once an agreement comes to an end between a landlord and tenant, shorthold or otherwise, and the landlord says that he wants much more in rent and the tenant is not in a position to pay, what is the use of security of tenure? The tenant will not have any recourse in law. Therefore, the provisions in the Bill relating to the private rented sector are 80 per cent. or 85 per cent. the same as those in the Rent Act 1957.
  The Secretary of State lives in his own dream world. He spoke during his speech about anyone who had a house to spare to rent, so I asked my hon. Friends whether they did. They all said no. Perhaps the Secretary of State has friends on the Conservative Benches and in other places who find that language understandable. To them it does not cause the amusement and merriment that it does among Labour Members and people at large. This is an odd person to be Secretary of State at a time of acute housing crisis.
  I agree with those Conservative Members who said that most people will resolve their housing position by obtaining mortgages. There is not much doubt that, insofar as people can afford to do so, they will want to own their own place. The Labour party, as we have said many times, has never been against owner-occupation. Far from being against it, we have encouraged it in almost every respect. For the record, to give substance to what I have said, in the late 1960s a Labour Government introduced the option mortgage scheme, which made it much easier for people on modest incomes to become owner-occupiers—strange action for a party supposedly against owner-occupation. If people want to become owner-occupiers, that is fine—let us give them every encouragement.
  There is some agreement between Conservative and Labour Members about there remaining a substantial minority of people—more than Conservative Members think—who will not be able to obtain a mortgage. They cannot afford it and will recognise that from the beginning. It would be wrong if they were pressurised into obtaining a mortgage when clearly they did not have enough income to pay it off.
  Like my right hon. and hon. Friends, I believe that the responsibility for providing the necessary rented places should lie with the local authority, genuine housing associations and some co-operative projects, but, in the main, with the local authority. It is sometimes argued that local authorities are very bureaucratic and not concerned. My local authority of Walsall was probably the first to decentralise its housing system. The authority provided 28 neighbourhood offices in the borough and that type of decentralisation has been copied by a number of other local authorities, mainly by Labour ones.
  The housing problem of those who are not able to afford a mortgage and who are often in desperate need of rented accommodation will not be solved in the private sector. That sector is interested in one objective only— making the maximum profit. If property companies and
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  private landlords were not concerned with making the maximum profit, there would not be much justification in being involved in property. Why should a company be involved in lettings unless it wants to make the maximum profit?
  All the evidence from private landlords to the Select Committee on the Environment, which looked into the private rented sector and of which I was a member, showed that they wanted the maximum return on their investment.
  The Bill will not solve any housing problems. It is a charter for property companies, unscrupulous landlords and potential Rachmans. The only way in which we can help those people who are in need of rented accommodation, who have as much right as any Member of Parliament to satisfactory housing and who cannot afford a mortgage, is through local authorities and genuine housing associations. That is why the Bill should be rejected and fought at every stage—as my hon. Friend the Member for Walton said, line by line. When we go into the Division Lobby at midnight, we shall go in with the same justification as our Labour predecessors did in voting against the 1957 rent legislation.
  7.34 pm
  Mr. Michael Latham: Over the years, I have often had the privilege of following the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) in housing debates. We do not usually agree on housing, although there are some subjects—for example, Soviet Jewry—on which we do. At least the hon. Gentleman is frank. He does not believe in private renting and in that he is acting in fine Labour tradition. Richard Crossman, as Minister for Housing and Local Government, said that he had a natural prejudice against landlords, and the hon. Gentleman shares his attitudes. He is entitled to follow that fine Labour tradition if he wishes.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Walsall, North when he pays tribute to the excellent maiden speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves) whose predecessor, Sir Reginald Eyre, was popular on both sides of the House. We look forward to hearing frequently from my hon. Friend.
  Before saying a few brief words about the Bill, I want to express regret about something that is not in it, and in this I may carry the hon. Member for Walsall, North with me. I had hoped that the Bill would contain a measure to deal with the problem of cowboys. This point was in the Green Paper produced two years ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow). I had hoped that there would be proposals to implement schemes whereby the only firms entitled to carry out improvement work were responsible and properly qualified, and on a local authority list. That idea has been floated, and there is no need for any more discussion on it. The proposals are well known. I am sorry that nothing has been done to implement them, but I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will return to them soon.
  I must declare a well-known interest. I have been connected with the building industry for many years and the firm with which I am concerned is involved especially in the role of sponsored housing. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State referred to "architectural experiments". He was talking about housing and flats built 20 years ago—system building—with the support of Governments of both persuasions. My right hon. Friend was critical of local government, so one should point out that the main

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  drive for system building came from housing Ministers of both parties. At that time, I worked in the Conservative party's research department and later with the National Federation of Building Trades Employers. I listened to many debates in the House and heard continuous all-party support from the former housing Minister, Sir Keith Joseph, Mr. Pannell and many other members of both parties, pressing for those buildings to be built. We are now paying the penalties for those decisions.
  That is why I am glad to note the part of the Bill concerned with housing action trusts. It will be especially useful not only in inner-city policy but in dealing with bad housing estates in outer-city areas or elsewhere, such as in my constituency. It is obviously much better if the work of the HATs were in conjunction with local authority work. This is not a ridiculous suggestion. I am sure that many local authorities will want to recommend that a HAT be set up in their areas.
  Before the general election, many local authorities, especially if they were Labour controlled, saw the bad housing conditions, heard the continual grumbles of their tenants and knew that the problems had to be addressed. They said to themselves, "We shall sit back and wait for a Labour Government to produce, we hope, more money for us. We shall do nothing until then." They saw that that would not happen, so the option of sitting back and waiting for a Labour Government was closed.
  Another option which was adopted by some local authorities was to sell the land to private enterprise. A third option, which has a much wider basis of support—it has grown since the general election—is that there should be co-operation between the local authority and private enterprise to tackle bad housing estates and to bring in the private funding, for which the White Paper called and which is implicit in the Bill. That must make sense. We know that it can be done because the urban development corporations have done it.
  I hope that during the passage of the Bill, and in the subsequent administrative action, there will be a strong realisation of the need for co-operation between the HATs—I hope set up with local authority support — the UDCs and the proposed mini-UDCs. The Bill's schedules are detailed about how the HATs will work. Hon. Members who serve on the Committee can get their teeth into those details and ensure that they are satisfactory. We must ensure that there is proper co-ordination both on delivering the inner-city policy and, in conjunction with local authorities, on action to deal with bad housing estates. My right hon. Friend will be aware that there has been a great deal of criticism both within the industry and elsewhere of the large numbers of Departments, Ministers and organisations that separately address the inner-city policy. The HATs will be another contribution to that. It is absolutely essential to act quickly to bring together all those various strands.
  The Daily Telegraph recently suggested that the Prime Minister was thinking of appointing a Minister for the inner cities. I sincerely hope that she does not do so. We do not need any more Ministers — we already have plenty, each with different Departments and jobs. If there must be a Minister with special responsibility for the inner cities, that Minister should be my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.] Am I interrupting the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Roberts)? I am so sorry. The problem should be tackled not by one super-Minister but by effective, well-led task forces, responsible to my right hon. Friend, that
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  can co-ordinate the activity on the ground. If I were asked to mention a name to head such a task force, in an administrative and executive capacity, I would not hesitate to recommend my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine). He is the person best qualified to do the job.
  A heavy responsibility rests upon the Department of the Environment to ensure that actions are properly followed through. The Bill, especially the part dealing with HATs, represents a major proposal to deal with bad housing, following on from what the UDCs are already doing. We have an opportunity, and we must use it effectively, to ensure that the right administrative arrangements are set in place to co-ordinate activity on the ground.
  7.42 pm
  Mr. George Howarth: This Bill must be judged against several tests of sensible housing policy. First, to what extent will it encourage the provision of good quality and suitable housing, especially in the rented sector? Secondly, will it allow the development and consolidation of new and, sometimes, novel forms of tenure, such as those that have developed during the past 10 years? They have proved very important. Thirdly, will it make housing provision more equal and less class-ridden than it is currently? Finally, will it improve housing conditions both in inner cities and in outer areas such as my constituency?
  There are real fears, especially on Merseyside and in the north-west, that the Bill generally, and the new funding arrangements for housing associations in particular, will not help those in the greatest need. The Merseyside housing association movement is concerned that the new flexible arrangements for housing association grants will not work unless and until the Government concede that the grant provision within the funding arrangements should be at least 70 per cent. Because Merseyside is an area of high cost but low—and in some cases falling—property values, the fear is that the new funding arrangements will impede rather than encourage the developments of additional housing association properties from those in greatest need.
  Another fear is that the changes in types of tenancy and the rent phasing arrangements will inhibit the mobility of those renting within the housing association sector. They may be caught by a controlled rent that, as soon as they move, transfer or exchange, will become decontrolled. That hardly squares up with the well-known philosophy of the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit), who once exhorted people to get on their bikes. It is not easy to get on a bike and look for a job elsewhere if transferring a tenancy results in a huge rent increase.
  The housing association movement on Merseyside demonstrably provides for those in need, as do the local authorities. The Liverpool Housing Trust has some 4,200 tenants in its properties. The Minister may be aware that its survey last year, which was submitted to the Housing Corporation, discovered that 66 per cent. of its 4,200 tenants were wholly dependent on state benefit and that a further 18 per cent. mostly low paid were to some extent dependent on housing benefit. Therefore, a substantial number of poorer people are being decently housed by that association. We can imagine the consequence for those tenants of the proposed changes in rent structure.

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  The Bill must be amended, and that is even more essential in view of the recent changes in housing benefit regulations. Otherwise, there will be a dramatic change in the tenant profile. The proposed changes in the housing association grant system will mean that it will not be within the grasp of the poorer sections of the community to afford the rent for a housing association property.
  The housing co-operative movement on Merseyside is also deeply concerned about the Bill. I am grateful to the Minister for opening the Southene co-operative in my constituency in September. He was fulsome in his praise of the development and the tenants involved. There are 15 co-operatives in the borough of Knowsley, and the movement is concerned that the distinctiveness with which it conducts its affairs will be undermined by the Bill.
  This weekend I was fortunate to address a conference of the National Federation of Housing Co-operatives, which asked me to bring its comments to the attention of the House. It stated:
  "The proposed changes to the Housing Association Grant Regime will make it more difficult to continue developing housing co-operatives in stress areas at rents which those in housing need can afford. In particular the Bill does not contain provisions to strengthen or develop the network of Secondary Housing Co-operatives, the organisations which have been essential catalysts in supporting the growth of the housing co-operative movement over the past ten years."
  I ask the Minister seriously to note those comments.
  The distinctiveness and democratic nature of a housing co-operative makes it a central and integral part of the design process, and the co-operatives fear that that process will not continue under these proposals. If the new grant system is accepted, the inevitable consequence will be package deals. For example, a builder will be asked to build a mix of certain types of houses, but the co-operatives will not have any say in the shape or form of the proposed co-operative estate or individual houses.
  That would seriously undermine the co-operative principle in housing which has been so successful on Merseyside and increasingly in other parts of the country. When the Bill is in Committee I hope that the Minister will seriously consider taking the housing co-operative movement out of these arrangements altogether so that it can continue to flourish and provide for people's housing needs in its own distinctive but equally important way.
  The housing association trust proposals and pick-a-landlord scheme cannot really be judged properly or finally until they are also seen in the context of the whole system of housing finance. I accept that on occasions council housing is not all that it might be, and I also accept that in some areas, because of the sheer volume of houses that local authorities' have come to control, it is very difficult to manage and maintain so much property. So there may be a role for something like a housing action trust, but it must be seen in the context of its finances and method of operation and be looked at on the basis of working in conjunction, in partnership, with local residents and local authorities.
  Some cynics peddle the argument that Government, with a whole plethora of arrangements—development corporations, task forces and now HATs—are latter day colonisers of the inner city, bringing people in to do good works during the day who then clear off somewhere else in the evening. Those people who manage such initiatives seem to have no logical connection with local residents and
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  local authorities who are part of that community. That may be a cynical comment on what has happened and what is proposed, but if the Government are not careful these proposals that are intended to help will alienate more than they encourage and this may well happen in both inner-city and outer estates. I understand that further legislation is proposed on housing finance. It would have been more sensible if the two things could have been brought together so that people could judge the financial as well as the administrative changes more fully.
  I would like to know more about the possibility, under the pick-a-landlord scheme, that properties will carry with them a dowry rather like a marriage arrangement. How will that work and what effect will it have? Who will pay for it? The costs and upon whom they will fall are causes of considerable worry in certain circles.
  My conclusions are based on a number of fears, the first of which is that arrangements, certainly in the north of England and on Merseyside, for private and housing association grant funding — flexible HAG as it is becoming known—might just choke off the supply of good quality housing for poorer sections of the community. Even if this is not the intention, it may be the effect. I hope that efforts can be made to resolve this in Committee, but there is a widespread and possibly justified fear that the housing co-operative movement, which is a lusty infant, may be strangled shortly after its birth if the Government do not give more detailed thought to how to apply these proposals to this sector, or if they should take it out of the arrangements altogether.
  The housing finance system has not been properly examined. Any moves towards greater equality between tenure types are not under consideration and the proposals may end up, again unwittingly, tilting the balance even further away from those in greatest need and towards those who are in the best position to afford what is on offer. It could lead to resentment on the part of those who live in the inner cities and outer estates in the same way as we hear of resentment building up among local residents in the London docklands.
  The Bill has the stamp of a measure conceived more in prejudice than in concern. Unless the Government accept the need for radical amendments, it is a Bill which may create more problems than it sets out to solve.
  7.55 pm
  Mr. Douglas French: I rise to make my maiden speech deeply conscious of the value of the democratic process which in this country confers on hon. Members the privilege of speaking in this House. It is too readily taken for granted.
  My first and most pleasant task is to pay a tribute to my predecessor as hon. Member for Gloucester, the right hon. Mrs. Sally Oppenheim. Mrs. Oppenheim made her maiden speech in this House 17 years ago this month. She was in her time here an extremely popular Member, popular for her charm, the warmth of her personality and her great ability, which took her to the post for Minister of Consumer Affairs. I know that right hon. and hon. Members will wish to convey good wishes to her in her new post as chairman of the National Consumer Council.
  In her role in Gloucester, she has become something of a legend. She has always fought to secure the best possible interests of the city and has always been somebody to whom Gloucestrians could turn, knowing that, if there were any solution to their problem, Sally would find it. She

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  is, as they say, a very hard act to follow indeed, but I will try to do so and to justify the confidence which the electors of Gloucester have placed in me. Most particularly I will seek to follow her tradition of never allowing officialdom to stand in the way of justice, fairness and common sense.
  The constituency that I represent consists not only of the city of Gloucester itself but also of an area which comes within Stroud district council, which incorporates the area known as Upton St. Leonards, Quedgeley and Hardwicke, and also the two small villages of Elmore and Longney. The city of Gloucester is one of great heritage and tradition. It has a magnificent Norman cathedral where the Domesday Book was commissioned by William the Conqueror at Christmas, 1085. It is also the only place, apart from Westminster, which has witnessed the coronation of a monarch—Henry III—the burial of a monarch—Edward II—and the sitting of Parliament. If the course of history had been slightly different, I might have found myself making a maiden speech in my own constituency.
  Today, Gloucester is a thriving shopping centre with well below the national average of unemployment. Its older businesses, which have incurred difficulties in the past, are now well on the road to recovery, and there are many new ones. The city has found particular favour with relocating financial institutions. The area known as Barnwood Fields is seeing the erection of a new headquarters for the Imperial Trident life assurance company, which will bring many jobs to the city, together with a new administrative office for the Cheltenham and Gloucester building society. The other very exciting development is the refurbishment of Gloucester docks, which offers for the foreseeable future substantial opportunities for employment and also forms a considerable tourist attraction.
  Gloucester also boasts excellent communications and is set amid beautiful countryside. It deserves to be popular, its people are friendly, warm and loyal, and I predict that many new businesses looking for places to relocate in the future will find in Gloucester exactly the combination of resources and amenities that they seek.
  Although Gloucester is the county town of Gloucestershire, it has a somewhat different atmosphere from the county, and some unexpected characteristics. It has an inner-city area with some fairly typical inner-city problems, of which the most serious is housing. That is why I sought to catch your eye in this debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Gloucester has well above the average level of home ownership. There are also some fine housing estates, including the new estate currently being built and known as Abbeydale III. Nevertheless, there are severe pressures on accommodation and especially on the council waiting list. Pressure is particularly heavy on family accommodation. Some families have been waiting eight years to be rehoused. Others, with two bedrooms fewer than they need, have had to endure that situation for more than five years. I am aware, too, that some people have been in bed-and-breakfast accommodation for two years, when the national average is usually measured in weeks. I conclude from those problems that the present system of housing provision, especially local authority provision, has not been successful—that it has, indeed, failed dismally. For that reason, I very much welcome the provisions of the Bill.
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  I was interested to hear the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) about the Labour party's original attitude to the right to buy. The right to buy was pioneered in Gloucester and the sale of council houses was already well ahead in the late 1960s. I would welcome a speeding up of the current rate of sale, as progress is slower than it should be. I do not believe that exhortations from the Government and glossy literature, however persuasive, will be sufficient to achieve the level of sales that one would like. I foresee a role for building societies and estate agents in a much more promotional and positive attitude towards securing more sales.
  I am also disappointed that the Bill contains no proposals for portable discounts, which have been well explained by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young), although I believe that my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning is considering the possibility of introducing such a scheme. Some clarification of the associated legal technicality is urgently required. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will shortly feel able to turn his attention to that.
  I must also add my name to those who have expressed reservations about the abolition of the cost floor. If recently built property is to attract such a discount that it is disposed of at a price lower than the debt charge remaining for the local authority, that seems frankly ridiculous.
  On a number of occasions, the House has debated the subject of capital receipts. It is well known that local authorities may spend only the prescribed proportion of 20 per cent. of capital receipts except on capital repairs in the year of receipt, and that that is taken into account in housing investment programme allocations. The defect of that arrangement is that it has no direct regard to the relative overall debt position of individual councils, some of which are in a far healthier position than others. I should like to see greater flexibility so that in certain cases larger proportions of capital receipts would be available to local authorities.
  I welcome the proposals for the deregulation of the private rented sector, and I endorse the comments about the initiative taken by the Nationwide Anglia building society. Even as the law currently stands, however, I believe that more could be achieved — but for the activities of certain rent officers. I could show hon. Members two-roomed flats in Gloucester suitable for couples for which the rents have been fixed at almost half those for identical accommodation divided into two separate units for two people. The result is non-availability of rented accommodation for couples, who therefore have to go into bed-and-breakfast accommodation at a cost higher than the amounts that landlords would accept if the rent officers set rents at appropriate levels.
  I associate myself with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Latham) about the need for co-ordination and for agency services. I have observed the activities of organisations such as the National Home Improvement Council, the neighbourhood revitalisation scheme and PROBE — the Partnership for the Renewal of the Built Environment. In many ways, they are precursors of the activities that I expect of the housing action trusts. If substantial proportions of private finance are introduced, as I believe will be achieved by the Bill, that must be accompanied by a high degree of co-ordination among the various parties

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  involved. I therefore see the emphasis on an agency role as extremely important, not merely in the provision of finance but in the co-ordination which is equally essential.
  I see the Bill as introducing a housing revolution. Many entrenched attitudes will have to change, but the Bill will offer choice, variety and freedom not hitherto experienced. I expect it to result in better housing opportunities not only in my constituency but for every family in the land.
  8.7 pm
  Mr. John Battle: I congratulate the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. French) on his maiden speech. I am sure that his gracious tribute to his predecessor was much appreciated by all who were present when she was a Member. The hon. Gentleman's speech showed his deep interest in housing matters and I look forward to debating those issues further with him during this Parliament. The fact that there have been two other maiden speeches — those of the hon. Members for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) and for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves) — and that so many new Members are keen to speak in the first major debate on housing in this Parliament reflects the importance of the subject.
  I had assumed that a debate on housing policy would be introduced by the Government with an analysis of the housing needs of the people of our country and of the conditions in which they are expected to live, rather than stepping back a century and suggesting that the prime mover in housing policy is securing higher rents in the vain hope that this will lead to an increased supply of housing and property improvements. That did not work in the past and there is no evidence to suggest that it will provide solutions now. The history of housing development in Britain shows that high rents lead to squalid conditions and the need for public health legislation, to property speculation and to private profit by landlords. As the hon. Member for Gloucester reminded us, we need a sense of history. It is worth recalling that the history of rent controls, as outlined by the Secretary of State, is exactly paralleled by that of public health legislation because the rents taken from tenants were not used to improve conditions. Indeed, conditions became so bad that at the turn of the century our forefathers found it necessary to develop and promote publicly rented housing, available according to need.
  The Bill has a narrower aim. Indeed, its first paragraph states that it is aimed
  "at transforming the rented housing market"
  It is worth asking the fundamental question: why was it transformed in the first place at the beginning of the century, and why was public sector housing developed on the basis of all-party political consensus? Surely we should not naively set the clock back, but recognise that it is ticking under a time-bomb of increasingly bad housing conditions and rising homelessness that threatens the inner cities and urban areas of late 20th century Britain.
  I shall take first the issue of conditions. There is still a common assumption that the housing conditions that touched the public conscience with the television programme "Cathy Come Home" in the 1950s have been eradicated. The Government still persist in the view that the United Kingdom is "a well-housed nation". Indeed, that was stated in their manifesto. The Government have
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  based their housing White Paper proposals on a rose-tinted view of housing conditions that are precisely contradicted by their own surveys. Only last January the Department of the Environment's research report on housing in multiple occupancy concluded:
  "There are some exceedingly squalid conditions within houses in multiple occupation…their existence is an indictment of local and national housing policy".
  However, the proposals in chapter 2 of the White Paper on repair and improvement to housing have been dropped between the publication of the White Paper and that of the Bill. It is not simply, as one Conservative Member said, that there is nothing about cowboys in the Bill. There is nothing in the Bill about improving the quality of Britain's housing. The Bill deliberately ignores all the evidence about the rapidly deteriorating state of Britain's housing stock.
  The Association of Metropolitan Authorities has estimated that, in the private sector alone, repairs now cost £26 billion. A recent study by the National Economic Development Council put the price of repair in the private sector at £35 billion. It is worth reflecting that in 1975,1·75 million homes in Britain were over 100 years old and by 1991 that figure will have doubled to 3·2 million.
  When will we address the severe problems of disrepair, not least in the private sector? The national housing and dwelling survey records that 1·2 million homes are unfit for habitation, 1 million or more lack basic amenities and that about 4 million are classified as substandard. It is worth reflecting also that more than half the unsatisfactory dwellings are occupied by households whose head is over 60 years old. Declining housing stock is occupied primarily by the elderly.
  In my own city of Leeds 52,500 private sector dwellings are now substandard and in need of improvement, and 19,000 are unfit. The reason is the legacy of back-to-back houses in the city. Those are precisely the private rented houses that led the local authority to embark on programmes of renewal, improvement and replacement in the 1920s and 1930s. The figure for private, unfit houses in Leeds lacking basic amenities is 1,800. That contrasts with the number of local authority houses that lack basic amenities, now 490, as a result of improvement programmes. There is a stark contrast between the improvement record in the public sector in Leeds and that in the private sector.
  I invite the Government to address the hard facts about housing and to provide some hard evidence to demonstrate that tenants' conditions will be transformed before they press ahead with legislation to deregulate all new lettings. The Secretary of State said earlier that he was interested in that issue, so when will the Government bring forward proposals to strengthen local authorities' duties and powers to require decent safe standards in the private sector and in houses that are in multiple occupation?
  If the Bill does not address the condition of the housing stock, dare we ask whether it addresses people's needs for decent and appropriate housing? I have found it astonishing that the one word that did not appear either in the consultative White Paper or in the Bill was the word "homelessness". Last year, over 103,000 families were officially accepted as homeless by local authorities in England alone. That does not include homeless single people or childless couples who are not legally entitled to

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  be registered as homeless with their local authority. The Bill fails to address the issue of homelessness and, in effect, does not offer homeless people anything.
  In my own city of Leeds, at the end of September, 21,800 people were on waiting lists and a further 16,500 people were on a list to be transferred to a decent and appropriate home. I advise Conservative Members who say that that is simply the result of a failure of management by local authorities that it may instead have something to do with the fact that there is a shortage of decent and appropriate homes in our large cities. However, the Government have successively resisted all attempts to quantify housing needs. I invite the Government seriously to consider setting performance indicators for their policies to demonstrate to the country, in precise terms, that they are tackling Britain's housing needs. I need to be able to go home from the House and reassure the hundreds of constituents who come to me as their Member of Parliament that they have a chance that, in the near future or before they die, they will be offered a decent and appropriate home.
  The Bill does not address conditions and needs, but simply states its intention to transform the rented housing market. The Bill's purpose is to attempt to open up housing in Britain to the big bang of the unfettered market. That belief in the magic of the market characterises the Bill. The Secretary of State seems determined to revive the word "rent". He has gone on record as saying:
  "New investment can"—
  he did not say will—
  "be undertaken by the private sector but the whole thing is going to be infinitely more difficult at present rent levels".
  There is an almost obsessional view that low rents are the cause of the dereliction of much of the country's public and private housing. However, in the statements that I have heard from the Secretary of State, there has not been any recognition of the need for investment in public and private housing. Higher rents are explicitly acknowledged as the impact of the Bill. The explanatory and financial memoranda state:
  "The proposals in Part I of the Bill will result in higher rents for new tenancies".
  The question is, who will be able to pay those rents? As some of my hon. Friends have pointed out, it will certainly not be young workers or those on lower wages. For example, nurses looking for private rented accommodation will face rents that they cannot afford.
  I shall be interested to know from the Secretary of State what work has been done to assess market rent levels, because there has been some suggestion that in London they could be between £200 and £250 per week, and in Leeds between £70 and £80 per week. That envisages a massive increase in rents. In the future, how will homeless people be able to find housing at a price that they can afford, either through their income or through housing benefit?
  Market rents will often be higher than the cost of home purchase. As the Halifax Building Society pointed out in its regional bulletin No. 13:
  "Any new private housing built for rent will be as highly priced as housing for sale where there is a rising demand and in areas such as the south-east of England, the market will not supply homes for rent to meet the needs of people like skilled workers, young people on low incomes, or other groups, swelling council house waiting lists."
  In other words, where people are too poor to exert economic demands, the private sector will not supply their
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  needs. We cannot claim that their needs will be met because their rent will be covered by housing benefit when the DHSS has given absolutely no assurances that housing benefit will be increased.
  Again the explanatory and financial memoranda state that there will be
  "some increase in housing benefit expenditure."
  That statement is contrary to the measures brought to the House a week ago which introduce reductions in housing benefit and make no allowances for this Bill. The Secretary of State said that housing benefit contributions would be reduced where property was not of a quality of a sufficiently high standard. Is he saying that tenants must pay over the odds for under-investment by landlords? Is he saying that tenants will pay a high price for the squalid conditions of their home?
  Other hon. Members referred to the Quality Street initiative of Nationwide Anglia to provide inner-city housing for rent, but when asked on the radio whether it would be necessary for him to assume a high level of housing benefit, Mr. Tim Melville-Ross said that it would indeed be necessary to have sufficient housing benefit support to make the schemes feasible. One cannot have one without the other, even under the scheme which the Secretary of State has highlighted as the flagship.
  The fallacy of the claim that allowing landlords to charge higher rents will result in better conditions is exposed by the research of the Department of the Environment. It showed that most such lettings were unprotected by the Rent Acts and were mainly only temporary lettings; that most occupiers had only one room and were sharing bathrooms and toilets; and that there were severe problems of disrepair, unfitness, damp and inadequate fire precautions.
  The truth is that most private landlords are not providing a social service, nor are they sharing, nor letting their spare houses, certainly not in terms of providing secure, satisfactory rented homes at reasonable rents and especially not for those on low incomes. Their prime motive is to maximise profits from rental income and future capital gains. The decline in public-sector investment has certainly not been replaced by private-sector investment, although rents are at an extremely high level.
  Behind the Bill's proposals is the idea that the private rented sector should be transformed to adjust to the needs of the market. There seems to be an uncritical willingness to bow before the false idol of the unfettered market. That is the dogma that lies behind the Bill.
  The Bill fails to recognise Britain's housing crisis or to accept people's housing needs. I cannot see how the provisions will result in a significant, new supply of homes or how it will tackle rising homelessness. Rather, the provisions will lead to a redistribution of the existing supply of homes. Those who are able to pay higher rents will be able to mount an effective market demand, but at the expense of those who cannot pay. The price of housing will be forced up. There is no guarantee that people on low incomes will be able to pay the price of housing, nor is there a guarantee that housing standards will be improved.
  I am reminded of the slogan that the Conservative party took as its banner in 1983—"The Resolute Approach". I was interested in the word "resolute", so I investigated where it came from. It was introduced from Norman French and in early documents it meant a severe and fierce determination to get rents in with the ultimate penalty of

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  death. What an irony. The resolute approach seems to be the hallmark of a Bill which does nothing to address the housing crisis that faces thousands of people.
  8.24 pm
  Mr. Gerald Bowden: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. French) on his thoughtful and perceptive maiden speech. The House will appreciate his generous and well deserved tribute to his predecessor, and the eloquence of his advocacy for his constituency and the interests of his constituents. We welcome the breadth of the experience and expertise which he brings to the House and look forward to hearing him contribute frequently to our deliberations.
  I also warmly welcome the Bill. The Housing Act 1980 offered council tenants the right to buy their homes, but an oversight in drafting denied that right to the majority of Southwark council tenants who live in my constituency, as the Act provided that only where a council held the freehold interest could the tenant force it to sell. The unwillingness of the coucil to waive that right, which it could have done, and its insistence on standing on that technicality, meant that a large number of my constituents had to wait up to five years before having the opportunity to buy. It was only with the Housing and Building Control Act 1984 that the right was extended to tenants of councils with a leashold interest. Since then, there has been no great improvement or enthusiasm by Labour-controlled Southwark council to sell homes to tenants who wish to buy. Indeed, protestations that it is now Labour party policy to encourage this are not borne out in my constituency.
  This raises the problem of delay on a technicality. A large number of my constituents are tenants of leasehold properties where the lease has only a short term to run. The position may be unique in London and in the country. The largest landowner is Alleyn's College of God's Gift. In the past, they have granted, sometimes for 99 years and sometimes for less, a ground lease on a piece of land. In some cases, the council built on that land and in others it bought properties with short-term leases. Many of my constituents are tenants of Southwark council where Southwark coucil owns a lease of less than 21 years, holding it from the estates governors of Dulwich college. They are denied the right to buy.
  I understand from informal overtures to the estates governors that they would be prepared to negotiate the freehold reversionary interest which lies behind that of Southwark council, if Southwark council were willing to facilitate the opportunity for individual tenants to purchase. This Bill will ensure a wider choice of tenancy, home ownership and tenure to all. Although that is not the prime purpose of the Bill, it could with adaptation cover this issue. It is a small point nationally, but is of crucial interest to a large number of my constituents.
  Another aspect of the delay worries me. It seems unfair that tenants who applied at the proper time to purchase, but where no action has been taken by the local authority, sometimes for a year, 18 months or even two years, continue to pay rent while at the same time the valuation of their property increases. Before this Bill is enacted, I hope that there will be an opportunity to provide for those tenants. When the appropriate time for action to be taken by the council on their application arrives, I hope that,
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  from that time onwards the valuation is fixed and that any subsequent rent payment is paid to a stakeholder or a deposit holder or held in a trustee account on behalf of the tenant. Therefore, when the time comes to complete the purchase the rent paid in that interim period, with accrued interest, can be used to discharge part of the purchase payment.
  It has also been argued that there are insuperable difficulties with regard to providing proper management costs broken down estate by estate. That may be a confession of failure on the part of local authorities. However, if that is an insuperable problem or one that will cause considerable delay, surely this Bill is an opportunity to bring in professional estate managers to advise and to cost the sums to which the services will amount. I believe this is a reform that should be made.
  I wish to pay particular attention to the right of the council tenants, if they do not wish to buy, to choose their landlord. I have already mentioned an oversight in the drafting of the Housing Act 1980 that denied the tenants of Dulwich their right to buy. From my reading of the present Bill, I wonder whether there has been a similar oversight. In particular, I refer to clause 86, which lays down that any tenant of a freehold landlord will have the right to choose another landlord. However, a large number of Southwark tenants in Dulwich are not tenants of a freehold landlord. They are tenants of Southwark, the leasehold landlord that holds ground leases from Dulwich college. In those circumstances, does it mean that those tenants would be denied the right to change or to choose a new landlord? I believe that the Bill, as presently drafted, does just that, and I believe that that will cause great problems.
  One instance of such problems is represented by the Kennolds estate on Croxted road. The ground landlord of that estate is Dulwich college and the leasehold landlord is Southwark council. Individual tenants on that estate would be unable to change their landlord within the terms of the Bill. We must pay attention to this problem before the Bill is enacted.
  Another problem that exists in my constituency and perhaps nowhere else arises where Southwark council is the ground landlord and there is a head lessee, a housing association. In this instance I wish to refer to the Ruskin park housing estate. That estate was built in the 1960s by the London county council and was subsequently held by the Greater London council. In about 1972, a number of tenants wished to buy their individual flats on that estate and they clubbed together to form a housing association. The GLC granted the Ruskin park housing association a long leasehold interest of some 99 years. Therefore, the tenants who bought their flats became 99-year leaseholders.
  However, those tenants of the GLC who wished to remain tenants found themselves in the position envisaged by this Bill. That is to say, the whole shooting match was granted, by way of long lease, to the Ruskin park housing association and, for those tenants who wished to remain GLC tenants, individual flats were leased back to the GLC. That arrangement was extremely successful from 1972 until almost the present day.
  On the demise of the GLC, the freehold interest that lay beneath the Ruskin park housing association long lease could have been—in my opinion, it should have been— sold to that housing association by the London residuary body. However, that interest was transferred to

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  Southwark council, which became ground landlord. Therefore, at present Southwark council is ground landlord, Ruskin park housing association is head lessee, from which some individual flats are leased on long leases by owner-occupiers, and a small proportion of flats are still occupied by what were previously GLC, now Southwark, tenants.
  The unexpired term of the lease on such flats is now 70 years and that lease is a wasting asset. Owner-occupier tenants are faced with great difficulty when trying to sell on the open market, because financial organisations such as mortgage corporations and building societies are not anxious to accept security of such a short duration. Therefore, we are faced with the anomaly whereby the owner-occupiers, those who have entered into a contract of home ownership, have a wasting asset that is extremely difficult to sell. We are faced with the curious situation that might allow those who are Southwark council tenants to choose a landlord different from Southwark council. It gives a spurious sense of superiority or advantage to those council tenants who wish to exercise their right to choose their landlord in those circumstances. Therefore, it militates against those who are owner-occupiers.
  I have outlined two problems where there is a delicate balance between the leasehold and the freehold interests. In years gone by, a leasehold was a versatile way of organising tenure while at the same time maintaining the cohesion of an estate. That balance has been a problem that has bedevilled my constituency in recent years. The beneficent landlord, Dulwich college, developed the practice of granting ground lease to individuals. When those leases began to come to an end, that practice caused some conflict.
  Twenty years ago, my constituency predecessor—my political opponent, but personal friend—Sam Silkin, now Lord Silkin of Dulwich, played an important part in the deliberations of this House considering the introduction of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967. That Act was introduced to enable those who are long lessees of houses to have the right to enfranchise and obtain a freehold interest so that they may feel that they will not lose their capital asset at the end of the term of the lease.
  That problem has arisen again now, in a slightly different form. The House should consider another estate within Dulwich, the estate on Farquah road, Grenville court and Marlow court. The tenants of that estate have made representations to me because they feel that, under the present freehold-leasehold balance, they share the same difficulties of the owner-occupiers on the Ruskin park housing estate. They have leases that have 70 years to run—originally they were for 99 years. Those leases do not represent a marketable asset. Many of the tenants in that estate are retired.
  Those retired tenants have contemplated using one of the financial devices that are now available for the retired with a capital asset, such as the home income plan. However, they have discovered that financial organisations are not prepared to accept a lease that has a declining term to run when considering the anomalies that have arisen as a result of well-intentioned but incomplete legislation.
  Mr. Rhodri Morgan: My constituency has similar problems of leasehold enfranchisement. I understand that building societies will lend money in the circumstances described by the hon. Gentleman where the
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  lease has more than 50 years to run. The rule normally applied by the building societies is that, provided that 25 years remain beyond the term of a normal mortgage, the property is regarded as a mortgageable asset. Serious problems arise when mortgages have fewer than 50 years to run.
  Mr. Bowden: I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. But such a lease is a wasting asset and becomes less marketable. I have no doubt that there is a market and that some institutions will fund such purchases, but that does not have the same freedom as the open market asset. If there was an extension of leasehold enfranchisement flats, we could make progress in this difficult area.
  An interesting concept in the Bill is that it almost admits the existence of a tenure which relates to freehold interests in flats. For years, there has been a philosophical debate about whether the flying freehold exists—whether one can have a freehold that does not sit on the earth's surface. But the tone of the Bill suggests that one could have a freehold stacked on top of another freehold. If that concept was accepted, there would be no reason not to enfranchise flats and thereby obviate the problems being experienced by my constituents in Grenville court and Marlow court. It is a serious issue because of the wasting asset, but it is even more serious psychologically when someone of advancing years has a diminishing lease. We must try to reassure that person by finding a solution to the problem.
  Mr. Fraser: When the Labour party tabled an amendment in exactly those terms to the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987, why did not the hon. Gentleman vote for it?
  Mr. Bowden: I am talking about this case. I have neither the memory not the expertise of the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) in this area, but I believe that we could extend the right in such circumstances. The hon. Gentleman and I share views on the broad issues in many respects, but we differ on some matters of detail.
  The Bill is a great step forward and offers wider choice. It provides a vehicle for righting some of the oversights and anomalies in the law, and I hope that in Committee it will be amended to deal with even more inadequacies and anomalies. I welcome it warmly.
  8.42 pm
  Mr. John Fraser: Earlier today, during questions on overseas development, we talked about starvation and the tragic circumstances of Ethiopia. If, during those brief exchanges, an hon. Member had suggested that our policy towards starvation should be to feed the fat and starve the lean, it would have been rejected out of hand. But Government housing policy is exactly that: helping those who have and depriving those who have not. Indeed, if one drew an analogy with starvation, it would not be going too far to suggest that the Government's cure for starvation is to cut supplies of food. During the past eight years, the Government have talked about a shortage of homes to rent. But Government policy and cuts in the housing investment programme have meant the loss of more than 500,000 homes to rent which would have been provided by local authorities had they continued the rate of building that existed in 1979. The

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  trouble with the Bill is that it does nothing to assist those who are in the greatest need. Indeed, it continues the policy of rewarding the haves and punishing the have nots.
  One example is mortgage interest relief. If an unmarried couple takes out a mortgage of £60,000 and pays tax at the higher rate, it will receive a subsidy towards repayment of the mortgage of £3,600 per annum, or £63 a week. Even if they were standard rate taxpayers, they would receive a subsidy of £1,620 a year. I mention £60,000 because it is bout the cheapest price at which someone could buy a one-bedroomed flat in my constituency. That is about the rock-bottom price in Norwood, even in the more difficult parts. I am not talking about council houses, but about ordinary conversions of Victorian dwellings.
  If we had assured tenancies in similar premises, with people starting homes for the first time no landlord would rent those premises at a return of less than 10 per cent. over what he has paid. I cannot imagine that the Government will give a subsidy to the needy couple of £3,600 per annum. They will get only a pittance of housing benefit on such a rental. That is another example of the Government feeding the fat and starving the lean.
  This year, mortgage interest relief will give a revenue subsidy of about £5 billion to those who, on the whole, are fairly well housed. I am talking not about first-time purchasers or people at the lower end of the market, but about people who are fairly well housed, many of whom took out their mortgages some time ago. The subsidy on mortgage interest is about two and a half times the capital investment which will be permitted to local authorities—about £2,000 million in the current year.
  Another example of massive Government investment which aids the haves and penalises the have nots can be seen in docklands. I welcome the revitalisation of docklands, but money has been poured into homes which are changing hands, not at £60,000 but at £250,000. The Government have diverted—almost perverted—housing investment in favour of the haves and against the have nots.
  Private housebuilding has grown during the past eight years, but there have been deliberate inhibitions on building and improving homes which will be available for people to rent. The drift of Government policy is not to address the serious problem of needy cases, but to reward those who are already relatively well-endowed. Homelessness is only the tip of the iceberg of the cold comfort which is meted out to those in serious housing need. I say "the tip of the iceberg" because 100,000 people accepted as homeless, 200,000 people applying to be treated as homeless and 6,000 to 7,000 a night in bed-and-breakfast accommodation in London are bad enough. There is a much larger housing problem, which the Bill does not cover, of about 1 million people living in homes that are unfit for human habitation and, according to the Government's figures, almost 2 million people are homeless in the sense that they want homes of their own and stand no reasonable chance of getting one.
  The Bill will add to the near nomadic and despairing mass of people to whom housing policy should be addressed, but who are not addressed by this Bill, or by any other Government statements on housing policy during the past two years. Instead of providing access to housing, the Government put more bars on the cage which encloses many people in housing need.
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  The vast majority of British people are reasonably well housed and financed. The first priority should be to provide access for all people to affordable housing of a reasonable quality in the right place. Neither tenure, the landlord or other considerations matter as long as there is access to housing of reasonable quality at a reasonable price. The second priority should be to improve the quality of existing housing so that occupants are more content with what they have. One of our housing problems is the fact that people are not content with the houses in which they live.
  The third priority should be to improve the physcial quality of housing by grants to owner-occupiers, or by making capital available to local authorities to improve the environment and the standards of management of their homes. We all recognise—my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) emphasised this—that there has at times been massive investment which has brought about great disaffection with housing because of the way in which people behave towards their environment and partly because of the way in which it behaves towards them.
  The Bill should address itself to the problems of housing need, but it does not. It will intensify the ghettoisation of many of our estates. In my constituency, and in places such as Southwark and Lewisham, the pick-a-landlord scheme will not have the effect of people living in the worst managed and sometimes neglected housing opting out of the system through pick-a-landlord. Those who live in the best-managed, best-maintained and best-designed accommodation will tend to opt out, to leave the residue even more on the margin than before. That is exactly what the right to buy has done. It presents a serious problem in places such as London, in which there is a grave shortage of housing to rent; it has taken out the best and made the residue even worse than before, leaving little hope for the survivors.
  The best that one can say about assured tenancy is that it is not quite as catastrophic as it might have been if it had been designed in the context of the Rent Act 1957. There is security of tenure and an appeal against an unreasonable market rent, based on the experience of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954, which applies to business tenancies. I have several hard criticisms to make. First, the Government have departed from what could have been a bipartisan policy on assured tenancies. Previously, we had an agreed policy of having approved landlords; assured tenancies were linked to new investment in housing; and there was also security of tenure.
  In almost every other sphere of public welfare, we approve or disapprove of people. We disqualify people who do not drive their cars properly on the road, just as, under the old assured tenancy, we could disqualify a landlord who was not up to scratch. That has gone by the board. If people do not run a cafeteria correctly and affect public health, they can be disqualified, too, as can those who run food shops or food factories. So why cannot we have a continuation of an assured landlord principle, whereby this House approves the landlord and lays down that he should be qualified to provide a certain quality of housing—which is not something that everyone can do? The Government have abandoned that bipartisan approach to assured tenancy and with that departure goes any possible support for their present innovation.
  Secondly, the Government have repeated the mistakes of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954, by laying a

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  minefield of legal traps. Under clause 6, if a tenant does not, within one month, serve a counter-notice disputing the revised rent put forward by the landlord, that rent is binding upon him. If a tenant is lucky enough to benefit by renewed prosperity, and goes away for a month, he can come back to an unpleasant surprise and find that his rent has been raised in his absence without the possibility of appeal. I ask the Government not to re-lay the minefield for business tenants in a statute dealing with residential tenants, who have less experience in dealing with legal matters.
  Thirdly, the assured tenancy cannot possibly help people in need. I cannot see those in need in my constituency being able to afford what I think will be a minimum rent of about £120 a week. The golden rule will operate: the higher the cost, the lower the space. People will take tenancies that they cannot afford, or space that is insufficient for their needs and, in a year or so, they will be back in the homeless queue and the local authority will be left to pick up the pieces. No doubt, the Government will then starve the local authority even more of resources, and then blame it for its so-called incompetence. The consequence of assured tenancy, and even at the lower end of the market of the new shorthold unsecured tenancy, will be to increase the growth of homelessness and intensify the ghettoisation and despair of those at the bottom of the housing ladder.
  Housing associations have a good record. They have been sensitive to social needs, have provided mainstream housing and have acted experimentally—for example, rehabilitating people coming out of mental institutions, and so on. They usually work on the principle of 100 per cent. nominations from their local authorities, which is wholly absent from the arrangements of housing action trusts and pick-a-landlord schemes. Almost the worst aspect of those is that the housing action trusts and the pick-a-landlord arrangements will mean opting out of any access for housing in those schemes for those on the housing waiting list. The Bill will pull away and distance the associations from their target customers—those in greatest housing need. It will steer associations towards the better endowed, and deprive them of access to funds for low-cost housing to meet the real needs in our community.
  Absent from the Bill altogether is anything to do with empty property. I am sure that many hon. Members know of that problem in their inner-city urban areas. Landlords keep property empty for a year or two at a time. In a way, the Government are right, in inner-city areas, to stimulate the idea of land being put on to the market. There is no excuse for a local authority, housing association or private home owner to keep empty a property that could be made available for housing accommodation. If the Government want more housing for letting, why do they not compel the sale of homes that are in private hands and are often neglected for years, much to the disadvantage of owner-occupiers or tenanted neighbours who resent the blight in their roads that results from deserted premises?
  At the end of the day, the Bill is irrelevant to housing needs—especially of people in London. In London we face an economic and social catastrophe in housing such as we have not had for a long time. In my constituency house prices have nearly doubled in a year. That means that not only people at the lower end of the market and the homeless are disadvantaged and have no access to housing, but nurses at my local hospital, teachers in our local schools and social workers for the local authority
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  cannot get housing. Even people in middle income groups—skilled and semi-skilled — cannot gain access to housing because of the way in which the Government have cut back on the housing investment programme. Nothing in the Bill will help. The Government are reinforcing the deprivation of a lost generation, particularly in urban areas such as London.
  I looked through my advice bureau on Friday night and examined the housing case of each person that came to ask me what the Bill will do for him or her. A nurse told me that she cannot carry on as a theatre sister because of appalling housing conditions. The Bill will do nothing for her. What will it do for the family living in overcrowded private accommodation which cannot go on the housing waiting list? What will it do for a woman who could not come to my bureau on Friday because she is a patient in Maudsley hospital? She has been driven mad by the operation of housing policy in London. She wants to be near her mother, and away from a lonely existence in which she has no friends. She is a young tenant, although there are many elderly tenants who would like to be with their children because it would save their lives.
  There is nothing in the Bill or in Government policy that helps those in the greatest need. I should have thought that there was no greater indictment of the Government's housing policy than their ability to stare the problem in the face and ignore it.
  8.58 pm
  Mr. David Martin: Throughout this Parliament, there will not be a more important Bill, nor more important issues than those debated today. In that I agree very much with my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson), whose maiden speech was first class and in whose constituency, before moving to Portsmouth, I lived when his predecessor represented it so well in the House.
  The supply of adequate food, clothing and shelter at an affordable price is fundamental to the basic needs and comforts of everyone. While we have been much more enlightened on food and clothing, the provision of shelter, to which we are returning with another Housing Bill, has been bedevilled by controlled markets, restrictions and rationing — perhaps indispensable in war time, but having little connection with reality in a free country in a long period of peace and with rising prosperity.
  The Bill takes significant steps in the right direction. In Portsmouth, many of the initiatives proposed are already under way. While there is much to be done and there is no room for complacency, I have never before come across a council that is so loosely attached to dogma and so widely receptive to any sensible ideas for action that will result in meeting housing needs. Such needs exist in Portsmouth as in the constituencies of other hon. Members.
  Portsmouth has been selling council houses since 1953, a whole generation before it became fashionable and then compulsory to do so. Many thousands have been sold. Over 22,000 council-owned houses remain and while, in recent years, new build has concentrated on the ever popular warden schemes for the elderly, there has been a steady addition of more general housing. But it was recognised long ago that the private sector had a major part to play in the provision of homes.
  Portsmouth council has a constant programme of home maintenance and improvement, and it is wholly convinced

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  of the justice of the criticisms—as I am, and as are many hon. Members on both sides of the House—of the badly designed, ill-suited mass developments, which it is now widely accepted add to rather than reduce social problems.
  At one time I lived in Exeter, in the middle of a housing estate that was built all around the farm of which my father was the tenant. He was a councillor for that housing estate and for one further down the road that was also in his ward—
  Mr. Barry Field: A very good councillor he was, too.
  Mr. Martin: My hon. Friend is right. I can tell the House about my first-hand experience and my feeling that it was wrong to develop a mass of council houses in one place in those days. The sale of council houses has done more than anything else to produce the mix of ownership that there should have been from the start in such housing after the war.
  Portsmouth city council has shown great courage, particularly in facing up to major development and in getting rid of much of the unacceptable mass housing. There has been new construction at Portsea. The council has also completely demolished Portsdown park, which received the experts' plaudits in the late 1960s and early 1970s, but which has been a complete disaster in human terms—precisely the sort of disaster that was so eloquently referred to by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer).
  I have no doubt that Portsmouth city council will endorse positively the propositions set out in the Bill, particularly that the council should play an increased enabling role in encouraging houses for all provided by the public and the private sector, as well as by housing associations. That should be done undogmatically. We want homes from wherever they come.
  In Portsmouth, as in many other places, we want to see an end to too much reliance being placed on bed and breakfast accommodation. While it no doubt has a role as a temporary expedient, it should have no part to play in longer-term needs, particularly those of families, whether single parents or not. My surgery, like those of other hon. Members, is full of people coming in with their housing problems. If anybody thinks that we are not as genuinely interested in sorting out those problems as anybody else, they must live in cloud cuckoo land. The DHSS-funded bed and breakfast accommodation, the bed and breakfast DHSS-funded house—whatever one may call it—is unacceptable. The Bill should help in ending that because the present legislation has given rise to that unacceptable face of housing.
  The city council for many years has been working in co-operation with the Portsmouth Housing Association, the Care and Repair Service and the Southlands Housing Association. I cannot speak too highly of the professional approach of those Associations in contributing deep sincerity and practical solutions to the problems of homelessness, disrepair and underinvestment to which the present state of the law contributes so lamentably in Portsmouth as elsewhere and about which the Government are attempting to do something in the Bill.
  While some people in housing associations are worried that their essential and original objectives might be
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  compromised, and some are inclined to view the Tory Government with suspicion, even when they are bearing gifts, I have no doubt that they will take up positively the new powers and responsibilities offered to them and will involve their tenants increasingly in their operations. At the moment councillors can take up their problems, if they are in the council sector, and the housing associations must ensure that they have good contacts with their tenants, and that their hopes and aspirations are met.
  The system of grants for home repairs and improvements has inbuilt delays which should be investigated and improved. Housing associations would very much welcome less bureaucracy in that respect.
  The part of the Bill which has the potential to enable the greatest provision of more homes relates to the private rented sector. I do not claim that it is the ultimate panacea in providing homes, but it will have an important and useful role if its future is uninhibited by the excessive legislative control which has existed for some 70 years. I give the Bill eight out of 10 because it goes a great way towards removing those barriers which have existed for so long.
  A moment of cool reflection should tell even the most dense person that greater harm has been done, not just to landlords or property owners, but to countless tenants and would-be tenants, by the non-availability of property to let, by so much property being inadequately improved and maintained, and by severe restrictions being placed on personal mobility and unnecessarily complicated legislation and case law. Little of the case law is in language which can be understood by a normal person, let alone a Fellow of All Souls, but it applies to virtually every step in a dangerous minefield. We have had Act after Act and case law after case law. When I practised at the Bar I tried to understand some of it — when I had to for a particular case—and with relief I forgot it as soon as I could when the case was over.
  In a rational world, to alleviate all this would not be a matter for deep party political controversy. It is profoundly depressing that the Opposition parties do not have any answers to reform the Rent Acts or to the provision of private rented accommodation and the contribution it could make to solving housing problems. Part of the responsibility carried by Conservative Members, in supporting the Government, is that people can look only to us for real solutions to those problems by a partnership between all agencies which is undogmatic. When Government Members have proposed that it is undogmatic, we have had a reaction from the other side—but it is undogmatic.
  Mr. Allan Roberts: If the hon. Gentleman agrees with increasing the supply of rented accommodation to solve the housing problems he sees at his surgeries or advice bureaux, why for doctrinaire reasons are he and his Government against increasing the supply of public accommodation?
  Mr. Martin: The supply of public rented accommodation has been increasing. If the hon. Member comes to Portsmouth, I will show him scheme after scheme. If it is not happening in his area, he should question his council. People will get no new ideas whatever from the Labour party, which remains hostile to all but the public provision of housing for rent. We have just heard that from the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Roberts). The Opposition are

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  bankrupt of ideas and want nothing but massive subventions of public money while preserving as intact as possible the stock in trade of local politicians—votes through dependency and housing rationing. That is what they are wedded to.
  For years the Opposition were against the sale of council houses. They said that it would not work and that they would not have it. They were saying that even while party voters, party members and councillors were buying them like hot cakes. That continuing attitude was exemplified in the sterile and depressing speech by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) who opened the debate and set the scene for all his hon. Friends.
  We heard the spokesman for the Liberals. That party's policy on housing, as on many other things, keeps up with events. The Liberals are against reforms such as the sale of council houses, until they are seen to work and until—what is more important to Liberals—they are seen to be popular. When that happens, hey presto, they are all on board telling their local electorate that it was always a Liberal idea anyway. They say that on the basis of some obscure 19th century Gladstonian principle, or extract it from the musings of Lloyd George who had plenty of time to muse in the 1920s and 1930s.
  During the betrothal period—if I may call it that—of the Liberals and the prototype SDP they managed to agree at last that Tory practices and ideas, many of which, including housing associations, are extended in the present Bill, were good things. That is in the Liberal's motion and it was in the speech by the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes). It remains to be seen what the other SDP, the one led by the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen), will come up with in its new slimline form. I do not see the right hon. Gentleman's name on the Order Paper above the motion in the name of the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey. We shall have to wait to see what the right hon. Gentleman comes up with. The right hon. Member for Devonport rather reminds me of a legendary fish called the aspidochelone. That legendary fish fools mariners into believing that its back is an island and, when they are all crammed upon it, it submerges and drowns them all. None of the Opposition parties will tackle the rent Acts and so we must.
  Mr. Simon Hughes: We would if we could.
  Mr. Martin: The hon. Gentleman would if he could, but in wholly the wrong way. We must be bold and we will be bold.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) spoke about the sale of council houses. If we had tackled the sale of council houses on the basis that the Opposition did not agree with that policy, and would change it all back when they came to power, we should never have sold any. In that case, the countless number of people who now own homes and who represent a real shift in resources from the rich to the poor, from those who own to those who did not own, would never have taken place. That was opposed on every occasion until finally the Opposition could oppose it no longer.
  The Bill could be bolder in terms of the assured shorthold tenancy, and we could leave rents to be freely agreed by market forces. In any case, the level of housing benefits will settle the matter. The Opposition hate it when we talk about market forces.
  Mr. Morgan: Is the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Martin) also opposed to market forces being applied to private mortgages? If he is, may we conclude that he is against mortgage tax relief?
  Mr. Martin: Mortgage tax relief is a great incentive to home ownership and home ownership is the greatest freedom that we have ever had. I am in favour of continuing it. It harnesses market forces. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Laissez-faire".] We do not want everything to be laissez-faire.—[Interruption.] The Opposition want "Gooseberry Fair" with the Government constantly between what the people want and economic forces. For Opposition Members, it is gooseberry fair, rather than laissez-faire; the Government should be into everything. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Martin: May I return to the point that I was making?
  Mr. Speaker: Yes.
  Mr. Martin: I was talking about market forces, which is what got the Opposition going. Market forces have led to no shortage of food or clothing. Market forces work in every other matter. One cannot do without food or clothing and in war time they were both rationed. The controls were lifted at the end of the war and now there is plenty of food and clothing to be had at reasonable and affordable prices. However, if one refers to market forces in relation to housing, you start to talk about dogma.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should not keep referring to me.
  Mr. Martin: I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. I should have said that the Opposition parties start to get very excited.
  The provision dealing with assured shorthold tenancies does not leave rents wholly to market forces. In any case, the level of housing benefits will settle matters. The market will soon notice at what level housing benefits are set. All the gurus will somehow work out what the level of housing benefit should or should not be. It is likely that, hey presto, market forces will come near to that level without the need for expert opinion from rent assessment committees—something that has happened over many years of restriction. As I said, the level of housing benefit will have a great effect on the rents market.
  The Bill provides for the Secretary of State to designate areas where such rent fixing is not to apply. That provision should be altered. The Secretary of State should designate only the areas where it ought to apply. For assured shorthold tenancies, it should be assumed that rent fixing does not apply. I should like to see some changes in clauses 20 and 21 of the Bill.
  I said that we should be bold. In ancient Athens, in the time of Pericles—I am sure that my hon. Friends, at least, will have heard of him—lived a gentleman called Artemon. He used to remain at home with two servants—probably of the civil kind and probably ex-members of the ADC—holding a shield of brass over his head in case anything should fall on him. I believe that the ways of Artemon have no place in the Department, and I am pleased to see that they do not have much place in the Bill. When the Bill is passed, Opposition Members, in the

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  House and in the media, will delight in highlighting the way in which market forces are being exploited by ruthless and evil landlords.
  Time and again, we have heard about Rachmanism. We have been told that we must not give rise to Rachmans again. None of us agree with the policies of Mr. Rachman and his boys. However, there will always be ruthless and evil landlords, just as there will always be ruthless and evil people—under Governments of any political complexion, in any country and in any political system. Any society has such people, just as it has the good and honest people.
  Many more evil things will be done if we keep the controls and the stupid restrictions that we have had for so long, which have stopped many people having proper homes at reasonable, affordable market rents. I have no doubt that we shall be able to allow ourselves years because this is not a short-term Government. We have had nearly eight-and-a-half years and a further eight-and-a-half years will certainly be enough to cement this reform into the ways of the country. When the reform has been cemented, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) said, the Opposition will accept it as the currency of practical politics, just as they have accepted the sale of council houses, and will not dare to get rid of it.
  9.19 pm
  Mr. Ian McCartney: Halfway through his speech the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Martin) said that he occasionally goes to the bar. I wonder whether that is where he came from before his speech, because I have never heard so much irrelevant claptrap in all my life. Unfortunately, the reality of what he and his right hon. and hon. Friends are advocating is that it will maintain the twilight zone in this country between those who can afford to buy or choose their housing and those who, because of unemployment or poor wages, are increasingly being forced into a situation without any real opportunity to determine their living conditions or the type of housing in which they wish to live.
  This Bill is about the erosion of rights. There is a subtle erosion of the rights of tenants in the private sector and a major erosion of the rights of local authorities in terms of working with housing associations and other agencies, both in the public and private sectors, to intervene in the housing market to determine the needs of the community, what resources will be allocated to public and private housing and how best those resources are applied. As my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) said, Labour Members are not really interested in whose name is on the rent book or whether the accommodation is in the private or public sector. We want a real choice in housing for those who wish to buy or rent. This Bill erodes even the small choice available now.
  As a member of a local authority before coming to the House, I am not going to apologise for the role being played by local authorities now and previously in the provision of housing. Much has been said by Conservative Members blaming local authorities for the current state of the housing market. The position would be infinitely worse if it was not for the role of the local authorities. I hope to describe my experience as a member of the local authority in Wigan.
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  One of the reasons for the problems that exist today is a historical one. In the 1960s, both Labour and Conservative Governments not only forced local authorities into system building but it was built into the grant system. Local authorities did not receive a grant for new build unless they built properties more than four storeys high. In addition, local authorities were forced to implement no fines concrete system developments and other untested and untried methods of construction. Today we see local authorities trying to cope with the multi-million-pound mistakes of those days while those responsible live out their retirement in Tenerife and other places. Those people were responsible for selling housing construction methods more akin to Mediterranean housing than that required in this country.
  At present, local authorities such as mine are having to deal with the problems of the Government's erosion of investment in the public sector. Major problems in housing now are a direct result of the Government's policies over the past eight years. In the country as a whole, investment in public sector housing has been slashed by 75 per cent. and in my authority it has been slashed by 80 per cent. in real terms. In the last year of the Labour Government, our HIP grant was £19 million and this year it is £6·4 million. Not a single new house has been built since 1983. This year, our allocation for new build of £4·5 million has been cut to zero. That is in an authority left with a legacy of private sector mismanagement in terms of its housing stock.
  The authority has set out in an imaginative way, along with housing trusts and housing associations, to try to change fundamentally the provision of housing in the public and private sectors in Wigan and the role of the residents in the private sector. The local authority has sat down with housing associations and residents in almost every part of the borough to set up housing action areas. Residents elect representatives for the local committees and, with the local authority, determine their refurbishment needs, both in property and the environment. Housing associations and building societies are sitting down with the residents and the local authority to determine the best way in which that refurbishment can occur. That is providing real choice in the private sector and providing public funding to maintain private housing stock.
  In the main, that housing is occupied by the elderly and by tenants of absentee landlords. The latter have caused the local authority the greatest problem in improving private housing stock. Too often, after a programme of reinvestment and improvement, the only houses that have not been improved are those still in the hands of absentee landlords. These difficulties, which will continue to occur, show that private landlords are not in the ball game of investing in communities, improvements in the environment and property. They are concerned with high rents and making profits and running from these communities.
  Despite massive grant cuts, the public sector's policy is to refurbish properties—heating, lighting and so on— and to relieve the serious problems of urban deprivation on estates. The local authority is sitting down with residents, who form residents' committees, to determine the estates' needs. That neighbourhood approach is being developed throughout the borough.
  There are 17 authority estates earmarked, but that programme has been curtailed because of the Government's cuts in the housing investment programme.

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  Many council tenants are trapped in houses now too big for them because their family needs have changed; the authority wants to give them the opportunity to move to other accommodation so that their houses are used for those on the waiting lists.
  Our priority estates programme aims to identify the problems and to find the necessary resources. It is about improving management techniques and involving other services in housing. The housing problems cannot be solved in isolation; they are part and parcel of the environment, socially and economically. Local authorities are taking up the challenge left by the Government's social policies. Where problems exist, they have been manifested, in the main, through housing. Direct action by local authorities in improving the environment in which tenants live will turn around the social problems on many estates. The Bill and the Government's attitude to investment in local authority housing make it infinitely more difficult for that change to occur.
  If the Government were really serious in their argument that the sale of council houses provides additional resources for local authority investment, why do local authorities such as Wigan have millions of pounds tied up because of Government capital receipt controls? Those millions of pounds, obtained because local authorities have been forced to sell properties, cannot be used to alleviate their housing needs. If the Government were serious, they would allow local authorities to use those receipts for investment in the public and private sectors. The Government refuse to do that, so millions of pounds worth of assets, which could be utilised to the benefit of the housing stock, are locked away.
  Mr. Irvine Patnick: Does not the fact that capital receipts are available reduce borrowing, so that, in effect, the local authority has the use of such money?
  Mr. McCartney: That is not—[Interruption.] I hope that my hon. Friends will allow me to answer that intervention in my own way. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick) obviously does not understand the whole concept of Government expenditure controls on local authorities, especially those on capital receipts. That ignorance has been displayed by other Conservative Members during the debate. The controls on capital receipts have resulted in millions of pounds of resources not being spent on housing stock. Consequently, residents have to put up with poor conditions such as lack of heating and the need for rewiring and other refurbishments. My authority has already approved proposals to carry out that work, but the Department of the Environment will not approve the allocations.
  My authority has an affinity with housing associations. It is a true partnership. The authority understands the needs of its community and involves housing associations in its housing strategy. The authority's area is divided into zones, each with a designated housing association. Within the overall housing policy, there is a range of options for people in both the public and private sectors, and resources are allocated on a 50:50 basis. In the housing action areas in the private sector, we are encouraging housing associations to provide low-cost rental accommodation. That is revitalising many parts of our area.
  There are sheltered homes and homes with special facilities for pensioners, again provided on a 50:50 basis
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  with housing associations; special housing for the disabled and paraplegics; and housing for single people and women's refuges. Currently we are constructing two specially devised places for the mentally disabled and one for the rehabilitation of offenders. The authority, working with the housing associations, is using its resources to diversify and give a real choice to those in need in the community. The Bill will undermine that.
  We think that housing will become a bigger crisis than the National Health Service. We cannot view the Bill in isolation; it must be considered in the context of the debate on housing benefit regulations last week. Again, Conservative Members showed an ignorance or misunderstanding of, or a malevolence towards, £640 million being sucked out of the housing benefit system. It is the eighth cut in housing benefit since the Government took office and, as a result, the role of housing associations will be restricted. If we are not careful, it will change dramatically from its traditional role of providing housing for low or no-income groups.
  Without major amendments to the Bill in Committee, housing associations will have to operate on a basis of market rents and who can afford to pay them, rather than on a basis of local housing needs. That has been regretted by the overwhelming majority of those involved in the housing association movement, including some Conservative Members.
  The Department of Health and Social Security legislation places housing associations in an impossible position. The ending of fair rents for both new projects and existing homes when tenants move out will mean that those in greatest need will not be provided with alternative or affordable forms of housing.
  There is another problem with those in the twilight zone, those who are neither eligible for housing benefit nor earning high incomes. These proposals will mean that up to 40 per cent. of their income will go on market rents. It will mean that many, particularly in the north, who want to move to other parts of the country to look for work will be unable to do so because of this legislation. Not only is this unacceptable; it is illogical to encourage people to move around the country in search of work and then, by this Bill, to make it financially impossible for them to do so. Forcing market rents on housing associations is highly irresponsible. We must return to this when the Bill goes into Committee.
  Another concern of housing associations relates to the Government's concept of affordable rents. I am not totally in favour of housing associations and the concept of affordable rents, but it is one way in which housing associations are attempting to procure a compromise from the Government in regard to their current policy on rents and housing associations. When the Minister replies to the debate, I should be glad if he would comment on the proposals on affordable rents put to him by the housing associations, and say whether the Government will consider amendments to allow affordable rents for housing associations, which will ensure that we do not reach the position where working people are priced out of the market and cannot afford to come into new or rehabilitated property run by housing associations.
  Housing association tenancies are another cause for concern. Here again, the Government are placing housing association tenants in a very different position from tenants in council and private accommodation. Housing associations are in neither the public nor the private sector,

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  and the Government should recognise that. The Bill should be amended in Committee to include the principle of housing association tenancy to ensure that housing association tenants are protected in a real sense and do not find themselves in a different position from council tenants or tenants of private landlords. This is a major deficiency of the Bill, and I would welcome the Government's views on it. They have already received proposals from housing associations in relation to this omission, yet they have seen fit not to include in the Bill some safeguards for such tenants.
  The Government are trying to change the way in which housing associations are funded. There is a real need to protect housing associations from fluctuation in the money markets. More and more will become involved in mixed funding schemes. There are some which will need flexibility in relation to the housing limits in terms of HAG. It is proposed that the limit will be 50 per cent., but this total inflexibility can cause difficulties, particularly for smaller housing associations when it comes to mixed funding schemes. Here again, the Government should allow some flexibility to make certain that, when this is introduced, the housing associations which become involved in these schemes over a period are not affected by market fluctuations when it comes to their long-term investment in new build and rehabilitation.
  There are some items that I would like to see considered when the Bill goes to Committee. The first is the abolition of the grant redemption fund. This again is an area where housing associations should be allowed some leeway in the amount of rent money which is ploughed back into rehabilitation and new building projects. The Government's present proposals are restrictive in relation to such funds.
  We would also like to see the Government review the revenue deficit grant for major repairs. The consultation paper suggested not only that revenue deficit grant be unavailable for future projects but that it should be phased out in respect of existing schemes. The housing associations recommend that this step should not be taken so that capital support can be provided over a period; this will make further payments of revenue deficit grant necessary for the long-term future funding of new build in the housing association sector.
  My final point concerns the long-term relationship between local authorities and housing associations. Unfortunately, some associations have already made it clear that they are prepared to take advantage of the Government's proposals to try to pinch large parts of local authorities' housing stock. As a former member of a local authority who has had a good relationship with housing associations, developed in unison, I am sure that every Labour council will bitterly resist any attempt by housing associations to undermine the policies, principles and assets of local authority housing. Housing associations hoping to make a major capital gain in the short term should think again, because in the long term great damage will be done to the relationship built up between local authorities and housing associations.
  9.40 pm
  Mr. Barry Field: It is appalling that only one Liberal Member has spoken in the debate, although the House will no doubt be expected to vote on the
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  amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Steel). It is even more appalling when one considers that my predecessor, Mr. Stephen Ross, who is soon to be ennobled and given a seat in the other place, was responsible for the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977, which has done so much damage to local authority housing in this country. I should put on record at the outset that for some years I was a director of a building society. I was also chairman of a local authority housing committee. It is a source of great pleasure to me that, since I ceased to hold that office, but relating to that period, the Audit Commission has complimented the authority on the way in which it handled its housing stock.
  It is significant and a sign of the social revolution that the Government have begun that in a debate on a topic so often regarded as the preserve of socialism, no fewer than three quite exceptional maiden speeches have been made by Conservative Members.
  I welcome the fact that, although the housing benefit system is to continue, local authorities will be able to restrict benefit paid on unreasonable rents. Where rents are considered excessive by the rent officer, the subsidy paid to the local authority will be limited to the appropriate market rent for the dwelling in question. As a councillor, on several occasions I took up the fact that excessive benefit was being paid, in some cases as a result of artificially high rents established in back-to-back deals between landlord and tenant.
  There are three areas in which the Bill does not go nearly far enough. My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Martin) gave the Bill eight points out of 10. That was a reasonable score.
  First, the Bill does not go far enough in terms of attracting private enterprise capital. The Government have an exceptional record in freeing the finances of building societies. Only last week, my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary made an announcement enabling building societies to go out into the market place to increase their borrowing. As yet, however—I say that deliberately because there is more to be published on finance in connection with the Bill — the Bill does not seem to go nearly far enough in attracting pension fund finance. Pension fund managers look especially for capital growth. Sun Alliance was established in our town and, as the chairman of a housing committee, I looked for a formula that would attract pension fund finance to housing associations to give them the capital growth that they sought. That is perhaps even more important since the recent movements on the stock market. It is quite possible to encourage pension finance into housing associations because it is cash flow positive.
  Mr. Ian Taylor: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Is he aware that one major pension fund has interests in Holland and this country, but has 15 times the amount of money invested in housing associations for property for rent in Holland than in this country because of the restrictive provisions of the Rent Acts? Does my hon. Friend agree with the excellent provisions in the proposed legislation that remove those restrictions so that the British side of that pension fund can find it more attractive to release further funds for investment for the purpose that he described?
  Mr. Field: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. I was not aware of that information, but it

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  illustrates my point that there is a need to attract pension fund finance into private rented housing in this country. It will provide a dynamo to generate an increase in the range that is available to tenants. That is what we are seeking and is the raison d'etre of the Bill.
  I appreciate that my next point is a narrow view and am sure that my right hon. Friend will be aware of that. However, I hope that when the Minister replies he will refer to it because it is of considerable concern to my constituents and to other hon. Members. I refer to the fact that the right to buy was not extended to deal with Greater London council holiday homes. Although I endorse fully the Government's view that the right to buy should not be extended to sheltered accommodation or to other specialist accommodation for disabled people — I am sure that most hon. Members can see the merit in that—there is no merit in continuing to deny the right to buy to occupants of GLC holiday homes which have since been transferred to the London residuary body.
  Mr. Winnick: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Field: Yes, I should be delighted.
  Mr. Winnick: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be delighted. As he is such an enthusiastic defender of the right to buy and wants to see it extended, even if I may say so in a farcical manner, is he in favour of private tenants having the right to buy their accommodation in law, regardless of any landlord and objection? If not, why not? What is the distinction between private tenants and other tenants?
  Mr. Field: I am sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman suggest that it is farcical. My constituents would greatly resent that comment. Indeed, I think that I should call upon the hon. Gentleman to withdraw that statement. What is farcical about my constituents who have occupied GLC holiday homes on the Isle of Wight for about 10 years and who are pensioners wanting to buy those homes? Does the hon. Gentleman own his own home? I bet that he does. I am quite certain of it, but he thinks that that is farcical.
  Mr. Winnick: I know that the Whips have probably told the hon. Gentleman to do a stint and to make it last, but having given way to me perhaps he will pay attention. I am asking him a simple question. If it is all right for tenants in the public sector to buy their own accommodation through the right to buy, what objection does he have, if any, to private tenants having the same right? It is a simple question, so let us have the answer.
  Mr. Field: I am certain that I did not mishear the hon. Gentleman say that my suggestion, which was that the right to buy should be extended to GLC holiday home tenants, was farcical. I wonder why he thinks it farcical to allow pensioners who have occupied their holiday homes on the Isle of Wight for several years to have the same right to buy as other tenants in the public sector. There is nothing farcical about it.
  Mr. Winnick: Answer the question.
  Mr. Field: I should also like to address the question of—
  Mr. Winnick: I have asked the hon. Gentleman a question.
  Mr. Field: I have already given way twice to the hon. Gentleman. If he continues to interrupt, we shall never get through the business.
  The Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 has caused considerable problems in the management of local authority housing. The difficulties of bed-and-breakfast accommodation are well known and rehearsed. The terms of residency to be established under the Act are taken by most local authorities to be six months in a 12-month period. That usually proves a connection with a local authority. I ask my right hon. Friend to embody that custom and practice in this legislation and I suggest that the period should be 18 months. It would answer many of my constituents' problems if under that Act a local connection were established after 18 months.
  Mr. Battle: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that there should be an 18-month residential qualification before one can register as homeless and that it is to be restricted to certain areas? How will he define those areas? If in one local authority area a landlord evicts a person and he crosses the street to the next borough, will he be disqualified from having a home?
  Mr. Field: I shall come to that point. I checked this information with the Library and this has been my experience as chairman of a housing committee. It is the custom and practice among local authorities, although it is not embodied in the Act, that six months in a 12-month period normally establishes a local connection.
  Many of my hon. Friends have considerable difficulty with that Act, particularly in seaside resorts where there is seasonal labour. Certainly the Act has caused considerable ill feeling on the Isle of Wight because many seasonal workers from elsewhere who man the hotels and operate the many attractions in our lovely resort—I urge all hon. Members to give us a visit—do not. always go home at the end of the season. Within a short period they have established a residency occupation, such as I have described, and then find themselves made homeless because at the end of the season the hotel no longer provides them with accommodation. Within about 12 months they are accommodated by the local authority and by using the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 they have effectively jumped the queue and taken homes which would have been allocated to island residents or their children. That causes considerable local upset and concern.
  I believe that we should go a little further with regard to the question of capital receipts. That question is continually exercised in this Chamber. The argument goes that, if the Government wish more and more housing to be built, why are the authorities, which have sold their housing stock through the right to buy, not allowed to use the capital receipts that they receive? I believe that my right hon. Friend should put an end to that argument by embodying in this Bill the repatriation of all capital receipts from local authorities to the Treasury. That would put an end to that debate once and for all.
  For too long in this country landlords have been at a disadvantage. Often landlords have not been encouraged to let their properties. Indeed, on the Isle of Wight we have several large houses that could be put to better use. However, every time I speak to those constituents who are landlords they express their concern as to whether they will ever see their properties again. I am certain that the Bill

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  will increase the level of private rented accommodation and provide the sort of choice that we wish to see for those tenants who do not own their properties, but who wish for a wider choice of rented accommodation than has been previously available.
  I am especially delighted with the response that has already come from housing associations. They appear to be gearing themselves up to go out into the public sector and take over many of our council estates. Several Opposition Members have said that they believe that the Bill will work to the detriment of tenants. They believe that many estates that are not so well managed and whose housing stock is poor in comparison to others will be left in the ownership of local authorities, while those estates that are better managed and have newer housing stock will be taken away by housing associations. They believe that that change of landlord will come about as a result of the voting structure contained in this Bill that enables the tenants to vote for a change of landlord.
  I do not believe that local authorities will be left with the more rundown estates. I believe that even the value of those estates will attract housing associations. I believe that many such older estates offer an attractive investment potential for housing associations. I believe that those associations will put themselves out to acquire such rundown estates and will believe that it is financially advantageous to do so.
  I believe that the bulk of the Bill is welcome. I have already outlined the areas where it does not go far enough. I would register a score of eight out of 10 for the Bill, but a major disappointment is the fact that the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 will not be amended within this Bill.
  9.59 pm
  Mr. Paul Boateng: The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) saw fit to tax the Opposition with the words of the late Aneurin Bevan. It is a foolhardy Tory who throws in our face the words of Aneurin Bevan. The hon. Gentleman said that he had heard Aneurin Bevan's speech in Blackpool, but he should have quoted his much more important speech on the first occasion that he addressed the House as Minister responsible for housing. That was a true analysis of our current housing crisis. I commend that instructive speech to the hon. Member for Eastbourne and to the House because it tells us a thing or two about our problems today.
  Aneurin Bevan reminded the House then, and we should be reminded now, that the only way to deal with such a great housing crisis was to ensure that local authorities were properly resourced and marshalled. He promised to ensure that resources were made available to enable local housing authorities to do that. He did rather more than that. He identified the fact that that housing crisis owed much to the failure over many years of private finance, and especially speculative finance, to resolve the problems of housing need. Speculators cannot properly take on board all the housing needs of all our people. Bevan said that, at best, they can cater for the most well-off and the upper end of the housing market for rent and sale. That is the best for which one can hope from private speculation and from the market, which is raised to such great heights by the Government and which Conservative Members believe can tackle our housing problem
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  Bevan pointed out the fallacy of relying on market forces and the need to mobilise and marshal the resources of local housing authorities to respond to local needs, as the market could never do. Most importantly, he mentioned the dangers of playing off local authorities against building societies. I shall quote this especially important part of his speech, and it is a pity that the hon. Member for Eastbourne is not here to hear how the man who he held out as a reproach to us would address the problems. Bevan said:
  "The conflict will be—and I warn hon. Members of it— between public housing on the one hand and the moneylender on the other. Many of these agencies that started off as building societies are now nothing but money-lending societies."—[Official Report, 17 October 1945; Vol. 414, c. 1225.]
  Those words echo the problem that we have today, and we would do well to heed them.
  The Bill does not encourage a supportive relationship in which one sector complements the other, as the Opposition would like building societies and local authorities to complement each other. The Bill proposes that the role of local authorities will be undermined and that building societies will be encouraged to fill the vacuum. That is not in the long-term interests of building societies, nor is it in the interests—short, medium or long-term—of local authorities and of meeting the housing needs of our people. The Government should wake up to the fact that there is no easy answer to providing housing for rent. They are trying to delude the building societies and the House and are not addressing the deep-rooted problems of meeting housing needs.
  Mr. Squire: Despite the hon. Gentleman's reservations, does he agree that it makes more sense for building societies to be involved in creating new properties, especially for rent, rather than recycling money to buy secondhand homes?
  Mr. Boateng: We have never been opposed to creative schemes to unlock resources — to involve local authorities and building societies in joint enterprises. On the contrary, before it was abolished the GLC had a successful scheme in London with the Abbey National, and we were going to set up more such schemes up and down the country before the Government imposed restrictions on local authorities' capacity to enter into them. We have nothing against such co-operation, but it must be part and parcel of a much wider system that unlocks large amounts of resources to address the problem—not a piecemeal, ad hoc approach to a deep-rooted crisis. We do not believe that building societies hold out the answer to the needs of the private rented sector, so we do not intend to go down that road, either.
  In so many ways, the Bill is typical of the Government's approach to all aspects of our problems in the inner cities. It is a combination of muddle on the one hand and the market on the other, with a great dollop of malice for good measure. Muddle, market and malice characterise the attitude of Conservative Members. [Interruption.] They do not like to hear that, and I do not blame them; I would not like it if it was addressed to me. However, that is the whole basis of their approach in the inner city; we do not buy it, and nor do the public.
  I say "muddle", because there is no coherent vision in the Government's proposals of the future shape of housing provision in society. We want such a vision. We genuinely want a healthy private rented sector based on fairness and

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  equity, and in which there is no room for harassment of tenants and the winkler-out. We genuinely want a thriving sector that meets the real need of people who wish to own their own homes. The record of successive Labour Governments and local authorities bears that out. In that speech on 17 October 1945, when Aneurin Bevan addressed the House in a way that the hon. Member for Eastbourne would not have found attractive, he promised to make—and did make—moneys available to local authorities under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act 1899. So, even in 1945, Labour was addressing these issues, as we have sought to address them in government and in local authorities, and as we shall try to address them again. It is right that people who want to own their own homes should do so, and be assisted to do so. There is a place in our vision for that, just as there is a place for those people who will never be able to afford their own homes, or who have reached a stage in their lives when owning a home is not feasible and who want decent accommodation to let in the public sector. That should be available as part of a coherent housing scheme and as part of a credible vision for homes for all our people.
  At various stages of one's life, one needs different sorts of accommodation. When one is young and single, one needs readily available accommodation. When starting a family, one should be able to afford to buy a house at a price that a young family might be expected to pay— not the £75,000 to £80,000 that people in Brent, South have to pay for a little flat in which to start a home. We want local authorities to have the power to help people to buy their own homes. We also want rented accommodation to be available to meet people's needs at various times in their lives.
  When one is elderly and looking for a place that is a bit smaller, when one is looking for support in the form of sheltered accommodation, and for a place that is integrated into a wider community, so that one is not separated into an old people's ghetto, but part of a housing estate in which old people play an integral part, have a role to play and are not isolated, such accommodation should be available, too. We should not have what I have at the moment in my constituency, with old people rattling about like peas in a pod, in four-bedroomed houses and three-bedroomed flats, who cannot get the housing that they want because of the restrictions outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney) in his speech.
  That is our vision for housing. How do we achieve it? One thing is sure. We do not achieve it by leaving it to the vagaries of the market, because there is no way in which it can cater for old people or for the young person seeking a start in housing. There is no way in which the market can cater for the special needs that we correctly identified as belonging to that area that is served best by housing associations.
  We have not heard from Conservative Members—I wait to hear it from the Minister when he winds up—precisely how our housing associations will meet the needs of the mentally ill, the disabled, the young person at risk or the single mother in the way that we would have them meet those needs, if there are financial restrictions on raising money and the rents that they will be required to charge. How are those needs to be met under the new order that the Conservative party has decreed for housing? There has been a deathly hush among Conservative Members, who have given no answer to that question, and
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  we now look forward to an answer. We shall press for an answer in Committee because all those who rely on us to meet their special needs demand it. They will not have the silence and smugness which characterise that which comes, I am afraid to say, from Conservative Benches.
  Therefore, the housing associations' role should not undermine but complement the proper role of local authorities. In that regard, I refer the House to a scheme that deserves commendation. I hope that the Department of the Environment will take heed of it, and that it will seek to ensure that local authorities, in their new strategic role, whatever that is to mean, are not precluded from entering into an arrangement or partnership with housing associations. A new estate in Brent was opened last Thursday, providing homes for 600 people. Before that, those people had been in desperate housing need, and were among the 800 families from my constituency and its borough in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. They were provided with homes as a result of a partnership between the Metropolitan Housing Trust and the London borough of Brent. The new estate cost £5·4 million to build.
  The interesting thing about the estate was that it provided a mixture between people who were coming together for the first time to buy their property in a shared home ownership scheme, and people who were renting the property. Thus there was that mix, which is so important, between people who had an equity stake in the buildings and people who, because it suited them, were renting property. The estate also had a variety of accommodation. It catered for the small family, for the larger family requiring four bedrooms and for the unit of a young married couple who required only one bedroom.
  A range of housing would eliminate the development of a ghetto or siege mentality which affects many of the sprawling municipal monstrosities. They are monstrosities, and no one pretends otherwise or seeks to defend the indefensible which exists in some parts of the inner cities.
  Is anyone seriously suggesting that housing action trusts hold the answer to that? Can anyone honestly say that housing action trusts consisting of appointees, presumably of the great and the good, without any roots in the local community, in no way democratically accountable and in which tenants will play no role at all, can rejuvenate the inner cities? If so, how, and on what experience will they draw? Where will the resources come from.
  We suspect that the resources would come from resources that would otherwise be allocated to tackling the problem of some of the worst estates, which never in a million years would become the subject of housing action trusts or would be able to attract private investment on the market.
  Is it seriously suggested that the City of London, which can hardly raise sufficient capital to invest in British industry, will suddenly be drawn into my constituency to rejuvenate Stonebridge and Church End? Of course that will not happen. Those communities will be allowed to stew in their own juice, while such resources as are available will go to housing action trusts. Those communities will become even more alienated and embittered than they are.
  Stonebridge has an active forum in which local tenants and the estate management seek to come together to address their problems. They came together last year to address the problem of security in Hiscock house, a block

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  of flats that had a serious fire which has been of considerable concern to local people on and off the estate. A bid was put in to the Department of the Environment to get porters in Hiscock house to do something about the vandalism and despair about which the Secretary of State for the Environment told us he was concerned in his opening remarks today. We are still waiting. We have had one rejection and we are waiting to see whether we get another.
  I hope that the Minister in his summing-up, or later by letter, will have some good news for me and my constituents, because we need that money desperately to encourage tenants to take responsibility and to give them hope that they have a future bounded by safety and security rather than by crime and the fear of crime and the hopelessness and despair that come from an environment scarred by vandalism. I do not believe that housing action trusts offer anything to people trapped in those positions. If anything, they will make the situation infinitely worse.
  Where do we go in the future? To what are we to look for some sort of vision about housing and the meeting of housing needs? Certainly not to the Government. I have
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  sat through the debate and heard every speaker, but I have heard not one bleep from Government Members about what they want for housing or the quality of life of people who live on estates, whether private or public. We have heard nothing about the issues that are absolutely vital when seeking to provide a decent housing environment. We have heard nothing about light, space, gardens, safety and security or about giving people an environment in which their characters can grow and develop and something good can come out of their lives. We have heard nothing about that from Conservative Members.
  Mr. Winnick: We are not likely to, either.
  Mr. Boateng: There is a dearth of information about that. That is not good enough because people are entitled to better. It has been said that the Bill is irrelevant. In one sense I wish that it were, because the great sadness about the Bill is that, while it will certainly do no good, it has the capacity to do infinite harm. It will be opposed root and branch by the Opposition. Every dot and every comma will be argued and it will be fought at every step in Committee. Our people must be served and the Opposition are going to see that they are.
  10.20 pm
  Mr Timothy Kirkhope: I am pleased to contribute to the debate. It saddens me to see the negative attitude of many Opposition Members to the housing issue and to the important parts of the Bill. To the Opposition those parts seem totally irrelevant, but they are important for the nation's good.
  I was worried by the speech by the hon. Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng) and by his attitude towards building societies. The hon. Gentleman seems to forget that building societies were formed in communities by local people who realised that they would be able to attend to future housing needs and to housing finance better than any other group of people or any subsequent authority that might receive powers from central Government to look into housing. It is a shame that the hon. Gentleman spoke in the way that he did.
  I have great faith in building societies, and I hope that some of the exciting developments in which they are involved can be further developed. That can be done by people who really know what they are doing.
  The hon. Gentleman spoke about muddle and malice. Surely the muddle and malice is all on the Opposition side. Opposition Members will talk about anything to do with housing as long as their remarks are negative towards a positive Bill such as this one. They have malice and over the years they have shown that malice towards those who are enterprising and who want to provide housing to meet the needs of the people. That malice has been prolonged, noisy and utterly unreasonable. It has cost the nation dear in terms of its housing stock and in terms of the freedoms that people are entitled to expect and to have.
  The hon. Gentleman spoke about our lack of discussion about gardens, plants and paths. Does he not realise that without freedom to choose, those things are as nothing and that it is only through the policies that we pursue and offer to the nation that those freedoms are available? They are freedoms that are prized by our people, and they have chosen them in their decisions at the ballot box on three occasions in recent years.
  It has always been a Conservative principle that the ownership of property offers a way forward for citizens to be free and independent. Since 1979 we have offered our citizens that possibility. We have moved away from state ownership which in itself is difficult to defend. The reluctance of Labour authorities to co-operate in the sale of council houses over the past few years is another example of the arrogance of power. That power is delegated by central Government to local government, and local government is not entitled to it as of right for evermore.
  Mr. Allen McKay: I take it that the hon. Gentleman agrees with the sale of council houses. Would he agree with an amendment to the Bill providing that local authority houses that go to private landlords will continue to carry the right to buy, and at the same discount as at present?
  Mr. Kirkhope: That is a matter for the Secretary of State. The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends appear to be exceptionally naive in assuming that there should be a direct comparison between properties freed under the Bill and council-owned properties that tenants have been given the right to buy. They fail to understand that one of
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  the major arguments in favour of the right to buy is that it gives back to the tenants freedom of movement and the freedom to choose what they do with their property. It enables them to relate to others in a free market. We wish that to be extended to the rented sector, and that is in addition to the public housing that has been returned to tenants by way of sale.
  In any event, the reluctance of local authorities to co-operate with Government policy on the sale of council houses has been overwhelmed by the people themselves, and Opposition Members have come to realise that. The softening of the Opposition's approach to the sale of council houses is a clear indication of that and of their reaction to the people and what they really believe.
  The Government have achieved a movement towards the building of new houses in the private sector. That is very important because it has led to the regeneration of the building industry. Builders are pleased by the reaction of those who are now able to choose what sort of property they buy, where to buy it and how to deal with it afterwards.
  Change is desperately needed in the private rented sector, and that is why I welcome the Bill. Opposition Members who feel that we are doing something new, radical and dangerous, do not realise—perhaps they simply do not wish to remember—that at one time the majority of private residences were rented. That was before the plethora of controls governing rents and the determining of tenures under leases. There is little evidence that at that time the contract entered into between landlord and tenant was the basis for exploitation of either by the other.
  Of course, at the end of the last war, some Government action was needed to assist with the nation's pressing housing needs. The hon. Member for Brent, South referred to action taken by the Labour Government after 1945. I suggest to him that it was not until the 1950s, under Conservative Administrations, that we managed to break through and provide the housing that the country needed. The Socialism that appeared in the years after the war did nothing to help our needs. It imposed only greater restrictions to deter people from providing the housing resources that the country needed. When the Socialists were in power, it became open season for Government and their newly and sadly politicised colleagues in the town halls—
  Mr. Battle: I put it to the hon. Gentleman that conditions in Chapeltown in his constituency have arisen because that area has the largest concentration of private landlords in the city of Leeds. Has he not one kind word to say for the local authority's housing action area, which has started to improve conditions in Chapeltown?
  Mr. Kirkhope: I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this matter, which I was going to deal with a little later. We wish, by passing the Bill, to address one of the reasons for the bad housing in Chapeltown. We wish to enable landlords in all areas to improve their properties because it is worth while to do so. In some cases, conditions have become extremely serious. Decay has set in well in some areas of our cities. That has been going on for 20 or 30 years. It is a direct result of long-term Socialist attacks on landlords and of long-term Socialist refusal to assist or co-operate in the renovation and improvement of properties

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  because of their restrictions on landlords being able to modernise and improve properties, enjoy some benefit from them and make them worth while as an investment.
  As I was saying, the Labour Administrations during the 1960s onwards made it open season for landlords and they became the bad men of the landlord and tenant world. Restrictions on letting and an appalling national economic structure destroyed the private rented sector, or what was left of it, and gave rise, in some instances, to certain behaviour by frustrated property owners. I am not excusing the appalling behaviour of certain landlords because it is not in any way defensible. Nevertheless, it is understandable that under the enormous pressures of artificiality created by Socialist Administrations there were bound to be attempts to avoid the law from time to time.
  As someone who has lived in the north all my life I find it a disgraceful tragedy that so many fine old terraced houses and so many fine blocks of flats and properties in the north have been allowed to fall into such gross disrepair and decay, and with them whole districts of our cities, as a direct result of a destruction in the market of rented property.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Battle) referred to Leeds and other cities. As I tried to say before, it is important to recognise the need in those cities for finance to be brought in far more than has been the case up to now in order to renovate and improve property and, what is more, to give some hope to property owners that their properties will be useful in the future, that they will have a proper return from them and that it will be worth while to do things to them, thereby giving tenants, as the hon. Member for Brent, South said, a better quality of life as a result—[Interruption.]
  Dr. Keith Hampson: My hon. Friend should notice that our colleague the hon. Member for Leeds, West and other Labour Members keep shouting, "Improvement grants." Will my hon. Friend remind them that under this Government there has been the most massive expansion of improvement grants that there has ever been? There has been up to £900 million for the improvement grants system. Will he remind our colleagues from Leeds that it is under the Leeds Labour party, as well as any other, that the run down of the inner city occurred? Will he remind them that projects such as the technical and vocational education initiative, which would improve the skill and opportunity of people in those areas, were totally ignored by the Leeds Labour party?
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd): Order. The hon. Gentleman is making a speech, not an intervention.
  Mr. Kirkhope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-West (Dr. Hampson), for that important intervention. I agree with everything that he said. There is no doubt that Government policy has been enlightened. Finances that have been reasonably available without damaging the economy have been made available for home improvement grants. As a result of that, perhaps some of the worst defects have been avoided. Nevertheless, the hon. Member for Leeds, West should recognise that local government cannot avoid criticism. The hon. Gentleman should not assume that local government can
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  get away scot free. Local government's hypocritical and appalling record in local housing must be answered during the Bill's passage.
  Many local authorities have been allowed to build up massive rent arrears, not because of tenants' poverty but because of weak or, even worse, uncommitted management which failed to ensure that the money was made up. Let us consider the resources that have been wasted because of the failure to put out repair and maintenance to private tender. One need only look at local authorities, such as in Leeds, to see that that is exactly what has happened.
  What about housing development in the 1960s? Many decisions were made nationally—as we admit—and locally, but local authorities must take full blame for the present position. The number of demolitions of blocks of flats and streets of houses that were built then is sad, and shows that the planning at local level left much to be desired. I hope that in future local authorities will not have the powers that they had then and will not make the desperate mistakes that destroyed the quality of life of so many people. If the private rented sector had been encouraged and helped by those councils, the position would be much better.
  The Bill is overdue and is very much welcomed. It recognises the changing position through our strong economic growth and the new needs of the people, many of whom are now more mobile and wish to live for a time, if not permanently, in rented accommodation. It gives the necessary encouragement for those who wish to provide housing for rent and allows a bargain to be struck between a landlord and a tenant with the minimum interference. It provides a basis for a strong, competitive and expanding private sector, which is what we require when renting properties. The Bill will allow standards to be improved and facilities to be uprated. It will improve the chances of older property being acquired and made useful once more. That, combined with the use of housing action trusts, which I welcome, will help to breathe new life into vast areas of our towns and cities.
  Local authorities complain that the new legislation will increase waiting lists for rehousing for the homeless. I do not accept that—I believe the contrary to be true. It is important, however, for local government to realise that removing certain commercial parts of their work will at least allow them to attend to the needs of those for whom they act in a particular role. I remind them of the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834 and of the roots of local authority, which were to help people rather than to control them and their lives. The growth throughout this century has been into matters that should properly be left to those who understand them. The days of the local authority as a business operator in many services should surely be numbered.
  Housing can be an emotive subject, but I see no reason why it should be a prerogative of the Opposition to be emotive about something so important. As a believer in individual choice and power for people, I see the Housing Bill as a further essential step along the road to freedom.
  10.45 pm
  Mr. Paul Flynn: I shall not weary the House by repeating the arguments put so powerfully by my hon. Friends. However, a number of points affect my constituency and my country. This Bill, like so many before the House, has nothing to do with Wales. During

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  the opening speeches of this debate and during Second Reading debates on other Bills, it was evident that the Government were dealing with the problems of London, and sometimes of only one or two London boroughs. In Wales, the Bill will be viewed as an alien, irrelevant imposition.
  To malice and muddle on the Conservative Benches we could add another "m"—mythology. The Government are victims of their own propaganda and mythology. When it was said that the Labour party has been in favour of selling council houses, there was a universal bray of disbelief from Tory Members. How do they explain that the constituency with the largest Labour majority also has the largest number of owner-occupied houses? I refer to the Rhondda Valley. That authority has been Labour-controlled for almost all of the past 50 years and has been selling council houses for almost every one of the past 20 years. It has a record of splendid creativity in housing.
  The Labour party is biased against private landlordism because of a bitter memory that goes back through generations over the centuries. There was once a bipartisan approach to housing—an agreement that there should be an alternative to the private landlord. Every fair-minded person who has worked in local authorities throughout the years accepts that there have been excesses in municipal landlordism that have to be corrected. One method of doing so is to create mixed communities.
  There are some awful features to the Bill. An entirely new concept of democracy is creeping across Conservative Benches. In the Education Reform Bill, democracy means a 20 per cent. majority. Under this Bill, 51 per cent. must vote against a proposal. In theory, no one could wish to vote in favour, yet the proposal will go through. That sort of democracy can be understood only by the Tontons Macoutes. Such democracy is meaningless and the Bill must be amended in Committee and on Report.
  The assured tenancy provision will, in fact, reduce security of tenure. The Bill confines succession to a spouse, yet in many families the remaining single person now has a right of succession. The rent review assessments are very much in the landlord's favour. The panels will not be allowed to take tenant improvements or length of residence into account. The criterion for rents is to be what might reasonably be expected on the open market. In an area of high demand, poor tenants will have to move to cheaper accommodation. That is thoroughly unjust.
  The Bill will create two classes of tenants—those lucky enough to have a secure tenancy with a local authority and those on an assured tenancy with a new landlord, where there will be no right to a secure tenancy at an affordable rent. The power of local authorities is being oppressed. People in local government have a vote too, and they were elected democratically. It should be remembered that only eight Tory Members of Parliament were returned from the 38 Welsh constituencies. Yet the Government constantly seek to stretch their tentacles of undemocratic power into areas that are none of their business.
  I accept that we need an engine of imaginative power in parts of local authorities to do something about the problems on estates, many of which have grown out of the sheer size of an estate and the one-tenure system. However, we do not need a body such as the housing action trust that is envisaged in the Bill. It will be unrepresentative of local people. There have been many such bodies in Wales recently. In an area known as the
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  Abergavenny triangle, it is said about the nominated bodies that they bring to rural Gwent the Welsh accent that is spoken at Eton and Harrow, not the one spoken in Grangetown or Llanfairpwllgwyngyll.
  There is a move to pack these bodies with unrepresentative Government placemen. We can see very little to be enthusiastic about in a housing action trust to which not only will the housing powers be transferred from local authorities but the planning and environmental health powers as well. This is a new body that will extend the mandate of the Government into Wales; the enemy within will have even greater power there.
  I read today in the main newspaper in Wales that the new Secretary of State is to produce a master plan in the new year, after his brief visit to a few of the valleys. In those valleys, in Cynon Valley and Merthyr, housing problems, as local Members have said, are not just in parts the worst in Britain, but the worst in Europe. How on earth can there be a master plan when this whole Bill is off target and is irrelevant to Wales?
  The Newport authority, part of whose area I represent, has an extraordinary record in housing innovation. I wish hon. Members would look at this instead of sticking to their doctrinaire, narrow view of the whole mass of Labour authorities throughout the country. The local authority has modernised all the pre-war stock. Energy conservation measures have been installed in nearly all the houses. Virtually all the pre-war and post-war houses have central heating. There have been innovative schemes of repair, shared ownership, stay-put schemes for the elderly, schemes for mobile homes, and other schemes which have been of great value.
  Where we now need a period of stability and imaginative rebuilding in housing, we see instead something which is based on malice and a doctrinaire vie..
  I would like to refer to a statement made earlier, in which a fellow Member for Gwent, one of the greatest Members that this House has seen, was quoted by hon. Members on the Government Benches. His words were caricatured and misused. What Aneurin Bevan said when he was made Minister of Housing was that what he wanted to create above all else in the housing programme was that lovely feature of all Welsh and English village life, where the carpenter, the teacher, the blacksmith and the solicitor live side by side in one street, what he called the rich tapestry of a mixed community.
  That was a high ambition, but what do we see in Britain today, after 10 years of Thatcherism? Do we see a beautiful picture, a rich tapestry, a balanced community? No, we see a jigsaw, a society whose housing is divided by sharp lines, divisions of poverty and of privilege. On one piece of the jigsaw we see privileged estates hiding behind barbed wire, with guards in front of them to keep out the rest of the population and to guard against crime; on another piece of the jigsaw are the shunned estates, places where crime and fear have built up. That is the jigsaw society of housing that has been created by this Government. The Bill will drive a wedge deeper into those divisions.
  10.48 pm
  Mr. David Amess: I would like to join other hon. Members in congratulating my three hon. Friends who have made their maiden speeches tonight on this important Bill. I certainly welcome the Bill in its attempt to open up the private sector for renting. I have listened very carefully to what hon. Opposition Members have said

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  about local council provision in their own areas. I have to say that my own experience, certainly in the London borough of Newham, is quite different.
  I was born in Newham and lived there for the first 29 years of my life. If anyone wants to see how a local authority can mismanage local council housing provision, he should go to the London borough of Newham. There is no doubt that the council has destroyed very happy east end communities.
  I wish, however, to address my brief remarks to part IV, which deals with the change of landlords and secure tenants. I am proud to represent the town of Basildon, the largest and finest new town in the country, where 16,000 properties are rented from the new town commission and 6,000 are rented from the council.
  A few years ago, negotiations began between the Department of the Environment and the local authority about the local authority taking over the 16,000 properties. I am glad to have the opportunity today to draw attention to the disgraceful political posturing that has taken place in the past 18 months in relation to those negotiations.
  There is no doubt that the former Socialist council in Basildon wasted a great deal of ratepayers' money on political propaganda expressly to damage the chances of Conservative candidates in local elections last year and this year and to damage my candidacy in the general election. I well recall taking a delegation to meet Lord Skelmersdale earlier this year when he was shown something that I can only describe as a video nasty, the star of which was a leading personality from EastEnders. I am not sure that the television personality concerned even knew where Basildon was, but the local authority paid him a large fee to appear in that video nasty. The video showed an elderly person trying to carry a giant letter along the street, supposedly representing the increased bills that tenants might have to pay if housing associations or other bodies rather than the local authority took over responsibility for their housing. It also showed disgraceful scenes of tenants being kicked out of their homes and thrown on to the doorsteps.
  Leaflets were also put through people's doors, printed and published at ratepayers' expense and at the instigation of the then Socialist local council. The object, of course, had nothing to do with caring about people's housing needs and everything to do with trying to damage Conservative candidates' chances in the local elections and my chances in the general election. I am happy to say that those calculations went wrong and we doubled our majority in the constituency of Basildon.
  My hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for new towns has told us on a number of occasions to reassure tenants that when responses from local associations and others who might be interested in taking over some of the 16,000 properties are received there will be some kind of referendum or full consultation with tenants.
  I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) that, just as Labour Members have done a U-turn in their views on the right to buy, they will do the same on the right to rent.
  10.53
  Mr. Keith Bradley: I have been asked to be extremely brief, so I hope that a certain incoherence will be forgiven, Madam Deputy Speaker. Nevertheless, I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words on behalf of the 35,000 people on the housing waiting list in Manchester and the hundreds of homeless people there, none of whom sees any relevance in the Bill and all of whom will oppose it as strongly as I do.
  In the short time in which I have been a Member of Parliament I have noticed a consistent strand in the Government's legislative proposals. I have been reminded today of the proposals in the White Paper on primary health care. The consistency is that in primary health care, if one charges enough for a prescription and for visits to the optician or the dentist, one prevents people having that health care. The same applies to housing. If one charges enough for housing, one stops the people in greatest need having access to housing. That is what the legislation is about.
  The Bill will increase the number of homeless people in Manchester, push up rents, encourage despicable landlords, increase harassment and eviction, and reduce real choice in the housing market.
  I shall refer briefly to three areas of the legislation: part I on the private rented sector, part IV on the so-called tenant choice and part III on the housing action trusts. Part I, relating to the private rented sector, will reduce the tenure that is available to tenants and, at the same time, reduce the amount of housing benefit that is available. Unlike the fairy-tale scenarios that have been painted by Conservative Members during the debate, I want to show what I believe the results will be in Manchester if the legislation becomes the law. First, the market in Manchester will push up rents rapidly. They will increase without the complementary increase in housing benefit that would allow those on low incomes or who are wholly dependent on housing benefit to afford any accommodation.
  Secondly, security of tenure will be substantially reduced and will be non-existent for those tenants with resident landlords. Notice to quit will depend on the grounds that the landlord intends to use for claiming possession, irrespective of the validity of that claim. Especially worrying is that in many cases of rent arrears, a court will be obliged to order possession against the tenant even if, for example, the arrears arise because of the payment periods of housing benefit and not because of any fault of the tenant.
  Thirdly, it is presumably intended that the level of market rents will fall as the market is glutted with private rented accommodation. However, there must be great doubt as to whether there will be such enthusiasm on the part of potential investors to enter such a volatile market. Those new landlords who do so are likely to be seeking a quick return on the capital invested. They are likely to be tempted into purchasing partly or fully-tenanted properties and illegally to evict tenants to take advantage of the fresh legislation. Although the amendments to the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 are to be welcomed, they are not especially strong and are unlikely to deter determined landlords from making a fast buck from this legislation. We have already heard today that

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  Rachmanism will return, and I believe that that is exactly what will happen in the private rented sector in Manchester.
  The next part of the scenario is that homelessness in that sector will inevitably arise from harassment and illegal eviction, from inability to pay the high rents and from the inaccessability of the sector due to the changes in DHSS regulations from April 1988 that we have heard about. We have heard the Minister say on television, on "This Week, Next Week", that he is relying on housing subsidy to pay for the increased rents. However, when I asked him during the debate on housing benefit whether that would be the case, he refused to answer. Indeed, he could not answer because we have already seen the cuts that he has made in housing benefit. He admitted the latest round of £640 million. They will not apply to this sector because under the new changes there will not be any provision for rent in advance or for deposits. Low income people will not be able to afford to enter the sector because of those changes in the DHSS regulations
  I am especially worried by ground 1 in schedule 2:
  "Suitable alternative accommodation is available".
  That means that when a landlord takes over accommodation he can look for suitable alternative accommodation and evict someone. Can the Minister give an absolute assurance tonight that elderly people living in under-occupied rented accommodation will not be evicted if the landlord claims that there is suitable alternative accommodation?
  Is there real choice in the legislation where it speaks of tenant choice or picking a landlord? Or, is it the landlord who will pick a property? Since the Government are so convinced that public sector tenants will fare better under alternative landlords, can the Minister assure us that those tenants will be given the choice to opt back into public sector housing?
  On housing action trusts, why is there no statutory obligation, such as that on local authorities, on alternative landlords, particularly regarding homelessness? Why will they not have to house vulnerable elderly people, those fearful of domestic violence, young people who might be subjected to sexual or financial exploitation, families with young children, and people who are vulnerable because of mental or physical handicaps or disability? Why will alternative landlords not have the same statutory duty to house those people as do local authorities?
  11 pm
  Mr. Robin Squire: I welcome this important and necessary measure. It is set against a background of the massive social change of the past decade and an enormous growth in the number of households of single persons. That is putting new strains on our present housing system and a revision of the underlying laws is required. Time does not allow anyone who speaks at this stage to go into all the Bill's ramifications, so I shall concentrate on housing associations in London and on empty properties.
  I welcome the greater status which the Bill gives to housing associations, and I believe that, broadly speaking, it has cross-party support, although at times one would not have thought so tonight. However, I am worried that, as all London Members will know, in London there are enormous problems and anxieties whether the housing association movement will continue to be able to look after those less fortunate—its traditional role—if there is insufficient housing association grant. The Minister knows
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  my fears because we have discussed this on more than one occasion. I hope and trust that the Government are taking on board the need to give a grant higher than 50 per cent. in London, if housing associations are to continue to do that. I am pleased to see him nodding his head.
  The main employers in London, almost to a man, woman and authority, confirm the difficulty in recruiting and holding staff. It would be worrying if, as a result of this legislation—I hope to serve in Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I have a supporters' club. It would be worrying if the Bill were to remove the present provision of housing for essential workers in central London.
  Empty property and homelessness are not given a high profile in the Bill. In Committee I hope that we can discuss the use of empty properties, not because that is uniquely the answer to homelessness—obviously it is not—but because it is one of many possible ways of tackling homelessness. We need to find more effective ways of using empty properties and not only those in the public sector.
  I confess that I have some sympathy with the Bill announced recently by Lord Scarman. It will require local authorities who were keeping properties empty for more than six months to make them available to co-operatives, housing associations and groups, unless there is a good reason for them to remain empty.
  We must also discuss private properties and recognise the distinction between ownership and use of those properties. Ownership is critical, and we should do anything that tackles that matter. I recognise that, in parts of central London, there are rows and rows of empty properties, and that cannot be justified. Such properties are often deteriorating. It should be possible for a local authority, particularly a local authority charged with a providing role—increasingly the Government see local authorities with such a role—to make use of such properties and to return them to the owner after a fixed time in an equivalent or even better state. If we are serious about tackling homelessness, we must consider this important matter.
  With those brief comments, I give the Bill my blessing and look forward to taking part in the Committee considering it.
  11.5 pm
  Mr. Rhodri Morgan: The Bill has been sometimes described by Conservative Members as the "pick a landlord" Bill. However, we are all aware that people are worried that it will turn into the "Revive Rachman" Bill. Conservative Members have a deep-seated prejudice against local authorities having the freedom to build; to use the receipts from the sale of council houses to build further housing; and to set a budget that is appropriate to gearing and appropriate to the assets held by such authorities in respect of housing.
  The important thing that local authorities want to do is to provide housing for the people on their waiting lists. If Conservative Members were honest, they would agree that most of the surgery cases that they see on a Friday or a Saturday ask such questions as, "Can we get a local authority house?", "Can we get repairs done to the local authority house that we have?", "Will the repairs be done by well-qualified workmen and not by cowboys?'", "What about our improvement grant that has been in the pipeline, but has been blocked?" Such grants can be in the pipeline for anything up to nine years. We also face the problems

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  of homelessness and people in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. The Bill does practically nothing for people in such categories, and is a monumental irrelevance in areas such as Wales where so much of the housing dates from the 1870s to 1914. In Wales there is an urgent need for the greater provision of improvement grants to bring houses up to date. That is more important than what the ministerial team have put in this irrelevance of a Bill.
  Let us consider the problem that is created by local authorities' inability to build. Conservative Members often quote the fact that they think that they invented the right to buy council housing. What do they see is the great virtue of the right to buy council housing? Is it the act of acquiring one's own home and therefore the ability to put one's efforts and skills into repairing and improving that house? Is it the achievement of the euthanasia of the local authority landlord? We hope that they consider that the great virtue is acquiring one's own home and that Conservative Members are not activated by some deep-seated, dogmatic hostility to local authorities and their housing role.
  If Conservative Members wish to encourage the ownership of property, logically, it must be right to encourage local authorities to continue to build. If it is right for local authority tenants to be able to buy their own homes it must also be right to allow local authorities to continue to build local authority housing so that the tenants of the next 10 years have the same right to buy as those tenants of the past 10 or 20 years. One cannot buy a house if it has not been built.
  The Bill will make it economically impossible for local authorities to continue to build. That means that local authorities have no elbow room in which to carry out their statutory duty to inspect houses in multiple occupation. Landlords who allow their houses to run down, such as in my constituency and in the constituency of the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Grist), are virtually inviting the local authority to close down such flats so that the local authority can serve notice for a mandatory grant under the Housing Act 1985. However, for the local authority to do so it must have alternative accommodation in which to house the tenants from such multiple occupation houses. At the moment the authorities do not have such alternative accommodation and they simply cannot carry out their statutory duty. Will the Bill help people in those conditions? Certainly not. I hope that that will be put right before the Bill becomes law.
  11.9 pm
  Mr. David Tredinnick: I must declare an interest. I work for a company involved in the private rented sector. Were it not for the existing restrictions on that sector, the company would be much more involved than it is.
  Before the introduction of shorthold tenancies and assured tenancies in recent years, many private landlords had given up and were selling their properties as they became vacant. Those two measures have transformed the position. The proposals in the Bill will go further to revitalise and rejuvenate the sector, but it would happen much more quickly if more attention was paid to another key area — tax incentives to private landlords. It is a matter of great regret that the capital allowances introduced in the Finance Act 1982, in response to the
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  recommendation of the Select Committee on the Environment in 1981–82, were phased out from 1984 to 1986.
  It is encouraging that the Local Government Bill includes proposals for councils to pay 30 per cent. grants to the private sector, including housing associations. However, besides the return to capital allowances, I want to see tax relief on rental payments. That has encouraged and stimulated private investment in rented housing in other countries, and until some tax relief is available for the private rented sector here, it will always be the poor relation of owner-occupation. If the Minister introduced some tax relief, he would be rewarded by a private rented sector expanding at a rate that he could not have believed.
  11.11 pm
  Mr. Allan Roberts: I congratulate the hon. Members for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson), for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves) and for Gloucester (Mr. French) on their interesting, well-constructed maiden speeches. I disagreed with them, although of course I could not intervene, but I hope that we shall hear equally interesting and well-constructed speeches from them in the future.
  I hope that the Minister who replies to the debate will say on what the £25 million extra for the homeless can be spent. May the local authorities use it to provide hostels or permanent accommodation, or is it just extra money to pay the ever-increasing bed-and-breakfast bills that are being run up by local authorities as a consequence of increasing homelessness?
  We, and some Conservative Members, want to know whether the Government intend to abolish the housing cost floor. The Conservative Association of District Councils opposes that, as does all local government. If it was abolished, more council houses might be sold, but for less than it costs the local authorities to build them. A council could build a new council house and the day after it had been let, the tenant—who had lived in another council house and therefore qualified—could buy it for about half or even one third of the cost of building it. That would be completely wrong.
  The Secretary of State said that the Bill which will follow this one will be aimed at subsidising people, not bricks and mortar. I and my hon. Friends oppose that principle completely. If we subsidise people, as we do in the owner-occupied sector, the amount of money coming from the Exchequer could increase dramatically, without an extra house being built or modernised. The best housing subsidies are those which initiate the building of new houses and the improvement of older houses, as the subsidy system before the Housing Act 1980 used to do. In that case, a local authority received about 60 per cent. of the moneys needed to build new houses and modernise older ones.
  Some hon. Members mentioned mobility in the owner-occupied sector and not in the public sector. People can choose to buy a house, then sell it and move somewhere else. That is one-way mobility. Someone can sell a house in the south or in London and move north, where there are no jobs. But one cannot sell a house on Merseyside, or in the north of England, and move down south to look for a job, because one cannot afford to buy another one. So the one-way mobility that existed to some extent before has been destroyed by the Government allowing massive inequalities to develop. House prices have escalated

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  beyond the reach of ordinary people in London, the south and other areas, while they have fallen in places such as Merseyside.
  Listening to some of the speeches by Conservative hon. Members tonight, one would think that the Bill was being introduced by a Government who had just come to power for the first time, after having been out of office for eight years. It is as though it is all happening in a vacuum. The Bill must be set in the context of the Government's record over the last eight years—a record of which they should be ashamed. Public and private house building has slumped—from more than 322,000 new homes built in 1975 to 200,000 in 1986. Only 30,000 public sector homes were started in 1986, compared with 150,000 in 1975. Yet Conservative Members claim that they want to increase the supply of rented accommodation.
  One third of our homes were built before 1919, and more than a million of them are unfit after nine years of Conservative Government. One in four homes is unfit, lacks basic amenities or is in substantial disrepair. The Government's own survey shows that £19 billion is urgently needed for repairs to council homes, but the Government have denied local councils the resources to take the necessary action.
  The worst scandal — and Conservative Members know it—is that, having advocated the sale of council assets so that the money was available to build more homes, the Government now prevent councils from using those assets and capital receipts. By their housing policy, the Government have contributed to a divided Britain. Home ownership has been encouraged, and we welcome that — but even for those who can barely afford it, which has led to terrible difficulties. There has been no help for people in such difficulties.
  Under this Government, interest rates have been, on average, 50 per cent. higher than under previous Labour Governments, and the number of people with mortgage arrears jumped from 8,500 in 1979 to more than 70,000 in 1986. The Government have the audacity to talk about rent arrears when they have inflicted those sorts of circumstances on owner-occupiers and caused arrears in mortgage repayments on the scale that I have described. Low-income council tenants have faced steeply increasing rents and reductions in housing benefits under the Government.
  Of course, the legislation says nothing about homelessness and how to deal with it, except that the housing action trusts that take over properties from local authorities will have no responsibility, having taken them over; nor will the private landlords or organisations to which they hand them on have responsibility for accepting homeless families, or nominations for people in housing need from the local authority. That is the only reference to homelessness in the legislation—to make it more difficult for local authorities that are left with responsibilities for the homeless under the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977—to deal with them.
  Homelessness reached record heights last year, with 103,000 households—the equivalent of 250,000 men, women and children—accepted as homeless by local authorities in England alone. That compared with 53,000 in 1978. In June 1987, there were 23,000 households in temporary accommodation—double the figure in June 1984. The number living in bed-and-breakfast hostels in June was 11,000—4,000 more than 12 months before, under a Conservative Government. Homeless families,
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  particularly from ethnic minorities, tend to end up in bed and breakfast; and the massive increase in council waiting lists that has taken place under the Government is the measure of the hidden homelessness in this country.
  There has been a massive increase in council waiting lists; in England, in April 1986, 1·35 million were on the lists—an increase of 200,000 compared to 18 months before.
  That is the background. That is the housing crisis that the nation faces, which the Bill does not address in any way. We have the Housing Act 1980. I served on the Committee, which started in 1979, immediately after the Conservatives won the general election. We heard all the arguments and the scenario. They said on Second Reading and in Committee that what we had to do to solve the housing shortage was to revitalise the private rented sector. They said that but for those wicked Rent Acts that Labour Governments had put on the statute book, limiting the rents that could be charged to tenants by landlords, and but for the security of tenure that meant that landlords could not get rid of tenants easily, there would be no shortage of housing. All the empty houses in private ownership would come on the market. People would invest their capital because they could get a fair return, and the private sector would provide the houses that were needed. So the Government said that they had solved the problem in 1980. They decontrolled 200,000 tenancies and introduced the concept of assured tenancies. They allowed fair rents to be increased every two years, and to be increased higher than previously.
  The Government's piece de résistance was the shorthold tenancy agreement, which meant that when people became private tenants they could have security of tenure only for the length of time that the shorthold tenancy agreement lasted—one, two, three or four years. At the end of that period, the landlord could give 14 days' notice and evict the tenant. Thus, the security of tenure problem was overcome.
  If the tenant wanted to renew the shorthold tenancy, he had better be a good tenant. That meant not trying to get one's rent fixed or trying to get a fair rent assessed. He did not go to the rent officer, or else at the end of the shorthold period, out he went and in came someone who could pay a higher rent. A coach and horses was driven through security of tenure by the 1980 Act. There has been no security of tenure for the past six or seven years, but what has happened? Where are all the properties? Why have they not come flooding on to the market? Why is homelessness increasing? Why is there still a crisis? I shall tell the House why. The hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick) gave the game away. In fact, the Tory Association of District Councils puts its finger on it. It doubts whether the market rents now proposed by the Government are a better way of seeking to revise the private rented sector, as in many cases it must mean rents at the level of mortgage payments without the benefits of tax relief.
  One cannot subsidise the public rented sector and housing associations or the owner-occupied sector and then allow landlords in the private rented sector to charge what they want, and not have the private rented sector doing anything but offer a dearer alternative. If access can be gained to a subsidised sector, whether owner-occupied or public rented, no one in his right mind will take the dearer alternative.

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  One can revitalise the private rented sector only if one does one of two things—stop subsidising all the other sectors, including the owner-occupied sector, or start subsidising the private landlord. Even this Secretary of State for the Environment is not Right-wing enough to do that. It would be an outrage if the Tories went mad giving money to private landlords to make a profit out of housing. If he wants to suggest that, let him do so, and we shall fight him.
  I shall say this for the Government. In an attempt to revitalise the private rented sector, they have attacked the subsidy systems to the public rented sector. They are doing it again in the legislation. There are no longer any Government subsidies to talk of to local authority housing revenue accounts, because rents have already been forced up to levels where most local authorities make profits on those accounts. In this legislation, the Government will outlaw rate fund contributions to those accounts to put the final seal making the rents for those in the public sector, whether council or housing association property, as high as the private landlord will be allowed to charge.
  People must be denied access to the public rented sector or the public rented sector must be made as expensive as the private rented sector if the Government are to stand any hope in their aims to revitalise the private rented sector. It is all part of the strategy to prevent people from getting access to the public rented sector — housing associations and council housing— for people to be dependent upon the private sector. That is why no more council houses are being built. Since 1979, the axe has been wielded; there is no more money for the housing associations or for general purposes.
  The so-called respectable arm of the public housing sector—many associations run by people who would be happy on a Conservative constituency association—were amazed when the Conservative Government cut their funding and stopped them building houses for general use as well. If the Government are to stop funding housing association and council housing, they will have to stop the lot, because that will make people dependent upon the private landlords, and it is all part of a total strategy. That did not work, so the Government are going further and producing an extreme Bill.
  We opposed the sale of council houses 10 years ago. Let me say what I mean by that: our policies at the 1983 and 1979 elections were exactly the same policies as those of the alliance. The Labour party did not oppose the sale of council houses; we opposed the compulsion on local authorities to sell houses when they did not want to. The right-to-buy policy consisted of central Government telling local authorities which had been opposed to the sale of council houses that they had to sell them. We never opposed the selling of council houses in principle; we have opposed compulsory selling. The Bootle Labour council pioneered the sale of council houses, as did many other Labour local authorities
  Mr. Patrick Thompson: My constituents will find this difficult to understand, because they remember that the Labour-controlled Norwich city council put every obstacle in the way of the purchase of council houses
  Mr Roberts: The Norwich Labour council was elected on the policy of opposing the sale of council houses.
  714
  The Labour party opposed central Government dictating to local authorities. We have a strong tradition of opposing the Government dictating to local authorities. We said 10 years ago that, if local councils were forced to sell council houses, the best would be sold and local authorities would be left with the worst.
  If council housing is so bad, such a terrible failure, I do not know why the Government think everyone has been buying it. Approximately 20 to 30 per cent. of the best council houses have been bought by people as sitting tenants because they are desirable accommodation built by Labour and Conservative councils. If council housing is so bad, why are the Conservatives boasting that it is a good thing to buy council houses? Of course there are problem estates, and many of the worst have been left to local authorities.
  The Government will not give the right to buy to sitting tenants—this is why the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) is wrong—but will, in one way or another, through this Bill, sell off council housing over the heads of tenants, against the tenants' wishes. The Government will sell off houses, without the permission of the tenants, to housing action trusts and private landlords
  Mr. Gow: So that the House and his hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) can be clear about Opposition policy, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that it is now the policy of the Labour party not to repeal the right to buy?
  Mr. Roberts: The answer to that is yes, and the hon. Gentleman knows that. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) expressed a personal view and did not state the policy of the Labour party. We are now addressing the wicked policy of the Government on housing action trusts. They talk about freedom. If there are elections, they will be rigged. An election system in which an estate of tenants will decide whether they will be handed over to a housing action trust is a system worthy of Stalin.
  What is proposed is not the right to choose a new landlord. The tenants may have no say whatever in what happens, because under these proposals an organisation, a private landlord or a housing association approved by the Housing Corporation can say to a local authority that it wants to take over an estate and can put forward proposals. There must then be a vote by the tenants on that estate, and 51 per cent. of the tenants—not 51 per cent. of those who vote — have to vote against the proposal or it will go through. In other words, 40 per cent. of the tenants could vote against the proposal, no one could vote in favour of it and, under this legislation, the estate could still be handed over to the housing action trust and then on to a private landlord. That is not freedom of choice. It is enforcement and the strangest kind of freedom that I have ever heard about.
  The hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Martin) said that we would not do anything about the Rent Acts. We would do a lot about the Rent Acts. We would introduce a charter for private tenants. This legislation is a charter for the private landlord. If Conservative Members believe in freedom of choice and the right to buy, why do they not support Labour party policy and give the right to buy to private tenants? If you believe that people should have the right to opt out of being council tenants, why not give private tenants—
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must recognise the Chair when he is speaking.
  Mr. Roberts: Why do Conservative Members and the Government not give private tenants the right to opt out and to choose social ownership, to choose to become tenants of a council? If Conservatives believe in freedom, they should let it work both ways. That is what a Labour Government would do. We would close Rent Acts loopholes such as bogus holiday lets and the use of licences instead of tenancies. We would introduce regulations to stop exploitation of service charges and would repeal the shorthold tenancy proposals which have driven a coach and horses through security of tenure.
  We would give a right in law to an effective and efficient repair service for private and public tenants. Neither private nor public tenants have that at the moment. We would introduce provisions for full information about the name of the landlord and about other matters, because many landlords will not tell tenants who their landlords are. Some tenants of 40 years standing cannot find out who their landlords are. Is that freedom? We would introduce stiffer penalties and more adequate safeguards against harassment and illegal eviction, and place on the private landlord a duty to ensure the safety and welfare of his tenants.
  We do not accept that these higher rents, these assured tenancies, are assured. In reality, an assured tenancy is an insecure high-rent tenancy, an assured shorthold is an insecure short letting and a market rent is a high rent. It is not just a market rent, it is a profit rent that will penalise people in the public and private rented sector, and we are against it. We have policies for real choice and will introduce a private tenants' charter when we form a Government.
  We will introduce what some Conservative Members were calling on the Government to introduce—mobile discounts for families with children who are stuck in flats and who need help with deposits so that they can buy houses and become owner-occupiers. Those people have suffered as a result of the Government's housing policies. We would launch a massive council and housing association low-rise building programme in order to do something about the shortage of rented accommodation. Aneurin Bevan said that the best form of rent control is when nine people are chasing 10 properties, and not the other way round.
  I remember attending my first advice bureau as the newly-elected Member for Bootle. A woman came to me and said, "I've got a problem." I asked, "What's your problem?" She replied, "It's a housing problem." I said, "That's usual. It would be that. What's your housing problem?" She said, "It's about my roof." I replied, "What about your roof?" She said, "I want one." There are thousands, millions, who need homes, and the way to deal with the housing crisis is to build more homes. There must be more homes for rent in the public rented sector. There must be a major house building programme and the right sort of housing must be built. I accept that there are some problem estates and that mistakes have been made, but the majority of council housing is low-rise with gardens in an attractive environment in popular estates, where the right to buy has been popular for all those reasons.
  I plead guilty to that which we, the Opposition, have been accused of by Conservative Members during the debate. We are against a free market in housing. We do
  716
  not accept that housing should be left to the free market. We do not believe that a decent house—a decent home—is a privilege. It is a right, not a privilege, in the same way that a decent education and access to health care are rights. Housing should not be a matter for profit and speculators. We should not be handing over the inner cities to profiteers, private landlords and speculators.
  The Opposition will repeal the proposed legislation, if it is enacted, when we next form a Government. We shall ensure that the market place does not determine whether someone gets a decent house. Criteria of need are as important as the ability to pay.
  11.36 pm
  The Minister for Housing and Planning (Mr. William Waldegrave): I think that everyone has paid tribute to the shade of Aneurin Bevan today, and I pay tribute to the splendid quotation that the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Roberts) tossed into the pudding. If rent control consists of more supply than demand, that is exactly what the Government would wish to endorse.
  I may have lost count, but I believe that I am the 30th speaker in the debate. I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will forgive me if I do not take up every argument that they have advanced. Apart from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, no Privy Councillors have contributed to the debate, and it seems that we have progressed quite a deal faster as a result.
  We have heard three excellent maiden speeches, and everyone, including the hon. Member for Bootle, has paid tribute to those who delivered them. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves) is a strong supporter of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. French), a near parliamentary neighbour, spoke of the pressure on housing in areas that are economically successful and the delay that is still to be found in implementing the right-to-buy policy. My hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden) spoke also of that delay. We shall be introducing provisions in the Bill to meet the arguments that my hon. Friends have advanced. As the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) has said, Labour-controlled councils have sold council houses over many years, and have done so efficiently. I wish that the leaders of the Labour groups that have done so would bite the leaders of others who seem not to listen so attentively.
  It is ironic that the hon. Member for Bootle is claiming, rather like Russian scientists in the Stalinist era who claimed to have discovered everything, including gravity, to have discovered the policy that led to the sale of council houses. The Labour Government's circular 70/74 advised that it was "generally wrong" to sell council houses. However, the Labour Opposition have now endorsed the right to buy, so they are coming along.
  There was little in what the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) said was wrong with the present system with which I and many of my right hon. and hon. Friends would disagree. The hon. Gentleman was eloquent and accurate when he spoke of his direct experience and described the failures of Governments both Labour and Conservative, and both central Government and local government, in design, architecture and planning during the 1950s, 1960s and on into the 1970s. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the houses that Liverpool city

  717
  council are building, or altering, on the Speke estate, for example, are fine. The design is far better than that of past housing.
  I know that the hon. Member for Walton will not consider it anything other than a compliment if I describe him as an old-fashioned Socialist who believes that the problems must be solved by state provision above all, perhaps even state provision alone. The divide came between him and Conservative Members and, indeed, among some of his hon. Friends on how the new communities that we all want to build should be built. We say by partnership and plurality of provision, by owner-occupation as well as state provision. That is the sort of thing that the hon. Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng) described in the estate that he mentioned. That sort of estate carries through the principles of Estate Action — that used to be called UHRU in my Department—and the priority estates programme and so on. That seems to us to be the way forward. That point was also made by the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) in what I thought was an extremely positive speech. We need plurality of provision if we are to avoid the grand mistakes of the past. Those mistakes were made by some people saying "numbers at all costs"—the hon. Member for Brent, South made that point—and others saying that we should centralise according to a pattern.
  The hon. Member for Knowsley, North (Mr. Howarth) has a long expert background in all these matters. He made an extremely constructive speech on the way in which one can solve some of the problems at community level. Even among some of the poor housing that we built in the 1960s, if the community strength is revived—he is an expert in doing that by the co-operative route, but there are other routes—some of that housing can be made tolerable. He has taken me to places in his constituency where that is being done. The hon. Member for Newport, West made the same point.
  Mr. Heffer: I never once said that everything should be done by the state through a centralised method. I have always agreed that there should be co-operative housing. I have always supported private housing. I said, and I continue to say, that the real need now is to build council houses for people in need because of the terrible problems facing our people at the moment.
  Mr. Waldegrave: The hon. Gentleman is the last person I would wish to misquote. I was unintentionally and wrongly transferring to him the views of Liverpool council. Liverpool will not work with the co-operative movement or housing associations — [Interruption.] Attitudes may now be changing. So little of the well-designed provision is available because Liverpool has not spread the skills out by co-operating with many of the bodies that have offered to help.
  We deal with the private rented sector in part I of the Bill, not because we are so naive as to think that it will solve all the problems but because we know that we need that weapon in our housing armoury in a way that most other European countries have. For example, France has such a weapon and I recently visited that country to look at some of its estates and how it is dealing with them. Some of the estates are just as bad as, if not, in some respects,
  718
  worse than the estates that we built in the 1960s. France is bringing the private rented sector into partnership with the state to solve some of the problems.
  The hon. Member for Bootle said that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was not Right-wing enough to subsidise the private rented sector. That is wrong. My right hon. Friend is Right-wing enough to do that and he has provided powers for local authorities to do that. What is more, local authorities, including some Labour local authorities, are doing just that. Surely that is right.
  A whole range of my hon. Friends said that they welcome the fact that we are trying to get provision back from the private rented sector. My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) said that we are not going far enough. I am sure that he will keep us on the straight and narrow. My hon. Friends the Members for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Kirkhope), for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Heddle) and many others welcome the fact that we are doing that. This country lacks the important weapon that can be provided for meeting housing need in the private rented sector.
  The one thing that almost shocked me in the otherwise interesting speech of the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) was that he said, as did many others, that the Bill was going to bring back into existence Mr. Rachman, or his modern equivalent. Where have they been? I know that in his constituency there are people operating now who are just as bad as Mr. Rachman ever was. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire mentioned the name of one, who I believe operates there but certainly operates in Kensington and Chelsea not far away, and in Brighton and Hove, where I recently looked at some of his properties. How do we get rid of such people? The Labour party tried to make it as near impossible to rent at all as it could. That has not driven those wide boys out of business. Those characters will not be driven out of business like that. They will be driven out of business only when there is a range of alternative property available from better and serious landlords with investment. That gives people the choice, which means that they do not have to go to Mr. Hoogstraten.
  Mr. Soley: The 1980 Act, which enabled these people to return to business, combined with the dramatic cut in housebuilding, reduced choice.
  Mr. Waldegrave: Not at all. If the hon. Gentleman reads the article recently published in, I think, The Observer about the landlord about whom my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire talked, he will find that that man was in action before 1980. These laws have not driven those people out of business. They will be driven out—reference has been made to them—by the serious investors who, recognising that at last the House says that there is a permanent place in our armoury for private investment in renting, will start to put big money in again. The first has come forward. Nationwide Anglia is not the only player in this field; the Halifax has already been putting money in.
  I recommend that those who are looking into this subject should go to France. It is a natural part of the investment portfolio of, for example, the insurance companies there to put money into private rented housing. That is at the long end of their portfolio. Because they do not want the quick returns, they are able to charge reasonable rents, often with some element of Government

  719
  subsidy, and we are making it possible in the Local Government Bill for local authorities here to do that. That is why those rents are affordable. It is the short-term operators, the wide boy operators, who have to get the quick buck and the high rents. That is why we want to make it clear that we have to get the serious flows of savings back into providing accommodation for rent. I know that some Labour Members, including, I suspect, some on the Labour Front Bench, know in their hearts that we are right. [Interruption.] As my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne pointed out, Labour Members will come along behind. I am not worried by the catcalling going on. On the catcall scale, it is a good deal lower than during the right-to-buy debates, so perhaps we are on our way already.
  A number of points were made about assured tenancies and registration. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it clear that we were willing to look at practical schemes, but we must be careful lest we make the position worse. If there is a scheme that is alleged to look into the hundreds of thousands of small landlords letting their properties on assured tenancies—that cannot really be done without an unimaginable level of bureaucracy—people such as the person whom my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire mentioned will get on to that list, and the system will not have the capacity to look properly into it. We should be careful that, by inventing a registration scheme which is just a token we do not put the imprint of approval on those whom we do not want approved. It is a difficult task. The hon. Members for Norwood (Mr. Fraser), for Southwark and Bermondsey and for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) made those points. We shall carefully consider suggestions, but I believe that this matter is much more difficult than hon. Members said.
  Clause 106 is a bugbear to some hon. Members. I hope that I can give the assurance sought by the hon. Member for Walton and other hon. Members. All constituency Members who have worked with local authorities on housing matters know that they do not now put people into absurdly large accommodation or very expensive places, charging the cost to the DHSS. Local authorities already use these sorts of powers, and clause 106 is meant to provide a safeguard so that there are not abuses. I think that the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey accepted that in the spirit in which it was offered. I assure the hon. Member for Walton that we shall discuss how best to use the powers relating to space so that the unkindness and unfairness to which he referred do not occur.
  The proposed housing association reforms were welcomed by all my hon. Friends. It is nice to have my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire) on my side. Indeed, it is rather encouraging. The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey said that we must support and re-establish the independence of housing associations. That is precisely the Bill's objective. In much of the voluntary sector there is a case for saying that, having been sucked into virtually 100 per cent. dependence on the state for funding, some of the originality and vitality is beginning to be lost. However, housing associations are doing some immensely good work and, partly because they are smaller, their standard of management is higher than that in the larger local authority estates. Several Opposition Members fairly made that point.
  720
  The Bill points the way to re-establishing independence and getting away from Treasury control over the amount of provision. However, it will be worth doing only if the sums add up and if the housing associations can continue to provide accommodation at affordable rents for those whom they are designed to help. They are voluntary—we cannot force them to do it. All that would happen would be that the supply would slow down.
  I wish to reassure the hon. Member for Brent, South who praised the work of specialist and housing associations. One is RADAR and another UJIMA—although that is now fairly large and confident. There are also the co-operatives. There are bound to be special needs, and that provision will continue to be funded with something like the present 100 per cent. for some time, and perhaps for ever. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch said, in the high-cost areas there is bound lo be a need for funding at well above 50 per cent. We have simply given an average for the whole of the country.
  I have seen schemes function with much less than 50 per cent. funding, but still letting at affordable rents—and some without any housing association grant where the local authority has contributed the land. Therefore, although we shall watch carefully to ensure that the sums add up, and we believe that they can, the insurance is that the 100 per cent. old system will run alongside while the scheme develops.
  The most radical part of the Bill deals with the housing action trusts. It is the first time, apart from the new towns, that central Government will play a role in the improvement of some of the worst housing. If I were a sceptical voice on the Opposition Benches—and there have been one or two today—I would welcome the HATs. As the dwindling number of Opposition Members who have served in Government will know, it is easy for Ministers to stand at this Dispatch Box and lay down the law to local authorities about how easy it all is and how everything must be done in this or that way—preferably with rather less money. We are actually putting our money where our mouths are.
  The hon. Member for Brent, South asked what we would actually be doing. The principles involved in the PEP and estate action work are the sort that we want to achieve—often the sort of arrangements in the very best co-operative housing estates that are now working with the private sector. We shall learn all the lessons that we can and then show how, even in the worst estates, those lessons can be applied to rescue some of those who feel abandoned. Hon. Members should not be frightened of that. I was pleased to hear a number of Opposition Members—for example the hon. Member for Knowsley, North—say that the proposal should not be condemned out of hand until we know more about the financing. I have spoken to other Opposition Members, who have not participated in the debate, who made similar comments.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester, in his maiden speech, made some relevant points. It is easy to say that something that we should do better is the co-ordination of the different services aimed at improving the estates. HATs do give one way forward for experimenting with new forms of co-operation between the different powers and services that need to be employed.
  Then we come to the part of the Bill which has caused the most panic—salutory panic—among some of the worst local authorities, the right to choose, the right to transfer, tenants' choice. It was welcomed by a great many

  721
  of my hon. Friends—it would take too long to list them all. There were a number of special points, such as that raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich, which we will look into, and we will write to him. I can assure the hon. Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. McKay) that the right to buy will indeed be transferred with the houses; I can give him an unequivocal answer to that point. We will look into it in more detail in Committee.
  The hon. Member for Walton rightly raised the voting system. I can assure him that there will be a vote. I can also assure him that there is no significance in the change of wording between the White Paper and the Bill. We envisage that there will be a vote at some stage. We have been criticised for the proposed voting system. I have no doubt that this will be looked into in great detail in Committee. The point that was not mentioned by any Opposition Member is that we are ensuring that anyone who does not want to be transferred from the local authority will have an absolute right to stay with it. They can have sub-leases back to the local authority. This works very well in a range of private accommodation where there is a multiplicity of different leases.
  Mr. Allan Roberts: It will not work.
  Mr. Waldegrave: If the hon. Member does not know that, he should be careful before he says that it will not work. I think that it can.
  I do not know how widely these powers will be used, but I do know that there are some places in this country, including the constituencies of Opposition Members, where I have been and where I believe that these powers will be of great interest to tenants, because there are very poor managements. This is clearly acknowledged by many people. I have a whole range of cuttings here, from the South London Press, from the Yorkshire Post, from the Manchester Evening News, from the Leicester Mercury, listing situations where it is perfectly clear that local management has almost broken down. Sometimes, let us be fair, Labour councillors are saying that, and are trying to improve the situation. But in not all those cases are they successful; and very often the combined power of the direct labour organisation, the district Labour party and other reactionary forces in the neighbourhood prevent them from making any progress.
  We need the safety valve. Why should not all our council tenants have rights to the same sort of privileges as were given to them voluntarily by some of the better Labour councils, such as Glasgow? Why should it depend on the kindness of their Labour rulers whether they have these rights? We think that they should have the rights by statute.
  It is clear that Labour is at sea on its housing policy, as it is on much else. One of their honourable colleagues wrote recently that Labour
  "offered nothing at the last election to the home owners, nothing to deal with the house price folly in London, nothing to those anxious to get on to the housing ladder."
  The same author went on to say that Labour was now an
  "under-party…relegated to the periphery of British life. "We represent,"
  he said,
  "a world that is going. Our structures and attitudes are policies of the past".
  He said that Labour was now
  722
  "a penny-farthing with delusions of grandeur".
  I would not have used such uncharitable language myself, but the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) obviously knew a little bit more about it than even we on the Government side of the House do.
  There are hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench and on the Opposition Back Benches who know that they have to modernise their housing policy. The best of their housing councillors, the best of their housing administrators working for many Labour councils, know that they have to come into the modern world on housing as on so much else. They know that in this country we need a serious private rented sector. They know that the great council estates are unmanageable because they are too big. They know that they need more pluralism. But still the poor old chaps will be told to vote against it here for a year or two, until the attitudes change, while the world passes them by, at which point they will belatedly come along with us. We shall welcome them when they eventually come, and we look forward to that time, because we know that otherwise history will pass them by utterly.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 16, Noes 324.

  Division No. 85]

  [11.59 pm

  AYES

  Alton, David

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Howells, Geraint

  Wallace, James

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Kennedy, Charles

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Mr. John Cartwright and Mr. Ronnie Fearn.

  Livsey, Richard

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Bright, Graham

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

  Alexander, Richard

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Allason, Rupert

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Amess, David

  Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

  Amos, Alan

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Arbuthnot, James

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Burns, Simon

  Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

  Burt, Alistair

  Ashby, David

  Butcher, John

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Butler, Chris

  Atkins, Robert

  Butterfill, John

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

  Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Baldry, Tony

  Carrington, Matthew

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Carttiss, Michael

  Batiste, Spencer

  Cash, William

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Bellingham, Henry

  Chapman, Sydney

  Bendall, Vivian

  Chope, Christopher

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

  Benyon, W.

  Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Colvin, Michael

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Conway, Derek

  Body, Sir Richard

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Boswell, Tim

  Cope, John

  Bottomley, Peter

  Cormack, Patrick

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Couchman, James

  Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Cran, James

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  Critchley, Julian

  Bowis, John

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Curry, David

  Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Brazier, Julian

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  723

  Day, Stephen

  Janman, Timothy

  Devlin, Tim

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Dover, Den

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Dunn, Bob

  Key, Robert

  Durant, Tony

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Dykes, Hugh

  King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

  Eggar, Tim

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Knapman, Roger

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Knowles, Michael

  Evennett, David

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Lang, Ian

  Fallon, Michael

  Latham, Michael

  Favell, Tony

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Forman, Nigel

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Lightbown, David

  Forth, Eric

  Lilley, Peter

  Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Freeman, Roger

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  French, Douglas

  Luce, Rt Hon Richard

  Fry, Peter

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Gardiner, George

  McCrindle, Robert

  Gill, Christopher

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  MacGregor, John

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Maclean, David

  Goodlad, Alastair

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Madel, David

  Gow, Ian

  Major, Rt Hon John

  Gower, Sir Raymond

  Malins, Humfrey

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Mans, Keith

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Maples, John

  Greenway, John (Rydale)

  Marland, Paul

  Gregory, Conal

  Marlow, Tony

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Grist, Ian

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Ground, Patrick

  Mates, Michael

  Grylls, Michael

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Mellor, David

  Hannam, John

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr)

  Miller, Hal

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Mills, Iain

  Harris, David

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

  Hayes, Jerry

  Moate, Roger

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Hayward, Robert

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

  Heddle, John

  Moss, Malcolm

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Moynihan, Hon C.

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Neale, Gerrard

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Needham, Richard

  Hind, Kenneth

  Nelson, Anthony

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Neubert, Michael

  Holt, Richard

  Newton, Tony

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Howard, Michael

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Nicholson, Miss E. (Devon W)

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

  Page, Richard

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Paice, James

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Patnick, Irvine

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Patten, John (Oxford W)

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Irvine, Michael

  Pawsey, James

  Irving, Charles

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Jack, Michael

  Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

  Jackson, Robert

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  724

  Portillo, Michael

  Summerson, Hugo

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Price, Sir David

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Raffan, Keith

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Redwood, John

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Renton, Tim

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Riddick, Graham

  Thorne, Neil

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Thurnham, Peter

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Tracey, Richard

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Tredinnick, David

  Rost, Peter

  Trippier, David

  Rowe, Andrew

  Trotter, Neville

  Rumbold, Mrs Angela

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Ryder, Richard

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Viggers, Peter

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Waddington, Rt Hon David

  Scott, Nicholas

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Waldegrave, Hon William

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Walden, George

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Waller, Gary

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Walters, Dennis

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  Ward, John

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Sims, Roger

  Watts, John

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Wheeler, John

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Whitney, Ray

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Speller, Tony

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)

  Wilshire, David

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Squire, Robin

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Wolfson, Mark

  Stanley, Rt Hon John

  Wood, Timothy

  Steen, Anthony

  Woodcock, Mike

  Stern, Michael

  Yeo, Tim

  Stevens, Lewis

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

  Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N)

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Stradling Thomas, Sir John

  Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones.

  Sumberg, David

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 324, Noes 214.

  Division No. 86]

  [12.13 am

  AYES

  Adley, Robert

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Body, Sir Richard

  Alexander, Richard

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Boswell, Tim

  Allason, Rupert

  Bottomley, Peter

  Amess, David

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Amos, Alan

  Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Arbuthnot, James

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Bowis, John

  Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Ashby, David

  Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Brazier, Julian

  Atkins, Robert

  Bright, Graham

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

  Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Baldry, Tony

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Batiste, Spencer

  Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Bellingham, Henry

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Bendall, Vivian

  Burns, Simon

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Burt, Alistair

  Benyon, W.

  Butcher, John

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Butler, Chris

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Butterfill, John

  725

  Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Heddle, John

  Carrington, Matthew

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Cash, William

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Hind, Kenneth

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Chope, Christopher

  Holt, Richard

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

  Howard, Michael

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Colvin, Michael

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Conway, Derek

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Cope, John

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Couchman, James

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Cran, James

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Irvine, Michael

  Curry, David

  Irving, Charles

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Jack, Michael

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Jackson, Robert

  Day, Stephen

  Janman, Timothy

  Devlin, Tim

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Dover, Den

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Dunn, Bob

  Key, Robert

  Durant, Tony

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Dykes, Hugh

  King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

  Eggar, Tim

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Knapman, Roger

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Knowles, Michael

  Evennett, David

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Lang, Ian

  Fallon, Michael

  Latham, Michael

  Favell, Tony

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Forman, Nigel

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Lightbown, David

  Forth, Eric

  Lilley, Peter

  Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Freeman, Roger

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  French, Douglas

  Luce, Rt Hon Richard

  Fry, Peter

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Gardiner, George

  McCrindle, Robert

  Gill, Christopher

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  MacGregor, John

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Maclean, David

  Goodlad, Alastair

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Madel, David

  Gow, Ian

  Major, Rt Hon John

  Gower, Sir Raymond

  Malins, Humfrey

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Mans, Keith

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Maples, John

  Greenway, John (Rydale)

  Marland, Paul

  Gregory, Conal

  Marlow, Tony

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Grist, Ian

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Ground, Patrick

  Mates, Michael

  Grylls, Michael

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Mellor, David

  Hannam, John

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  Miller, Hal

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Mills, Iain

  Harris, David

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

  Hayes, Jerry

  Moate, Roger

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Hayward, Robert

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  726

  Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Moss, Malcolm

  Squire, Robin

  Moynihan, Hon C.

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Neale, Gerrard

  Stanley, Rt Hon John

  Needham, Richard

  Steen, Anthony

  Nelson, Anthony

  Stern, Michael

  Neubert, Michael

  Stevens, Lewis

  Newton, Tony

  Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N)

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Stradling Thomas, Sir John

  Nicholson, Miss E. (Devon W)

  Sumberg, David

  Onslow, Cranley

  Summerson, Hugo

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Page, Richard

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Paice, James

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Patnick, Irvine

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Patten, John (Oxford W)

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

  Pawsey, James

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Thorne, Neil

  Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Thurnham, Peter

  Portillo, Michael

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Price, Sir David

  Tracey, Richard

  Raffan, Keith

  Tredinnick, David

  Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

  Trippier, David

  Redwood, John

  Trotter, Neville

  Renton, Tim

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Viggers, Peter

  Riddick, Graham

  Waddington, Rt Hon David

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Waldegrave, Hon William

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Walden, George

  Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

  Waller, Gary

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Walters, Dennis

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Ward, John

  Rost, Peter

  Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

  Rowe, Andrew

  Warren, Kenneth

  Rumbold, Mrs Angela

  Watts, John

  Ryder, Richard

  Wheeler, John

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Whitney, Ray

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Scott, Nicholas

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Wilshire, David

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Wolfson, Mark

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  Wood, Timothy

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  Woodcock, Mike

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Yeo, Tim

  Sims, Roger

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones.

  Speller, Tony

  Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)

  NOES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Blair, Tony

  Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

  Boateng, Paul

  Allen, Graham

  Boyes, Roland

  Alton, David

  Bradley, Keith

  Anderson, Donald

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Armstrong, Ms Hilary

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Ashton, Joe

  Buchan, Norman

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Buckley, George

  Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

  Caborn, Richard

  Barron, Kevin

  Callaghan, Jim

  Battle, John

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Beckett, Margaret

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Benn, Rt Hon Tony

  Canavan, Dennis

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Cartwright, John

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  727

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)

  Clay, Bob

  Lewis, Terry

  Clelland, David

  Livsey, Richard

  Cohen, Harry

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Corbett, Robin

  McAllion, John

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  McAvoy, Tom

  Cousins, Jim

  McCartney, Ian

  Crowther, Stan

  Macdonald, Calum

  Cryer, Bob

  McFall, John

  Cummings, J.

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  McKelvey, William

  Darling, Alastair

  McLeish, Henry

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

  McNamara, Kevin

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  McWilliam, John

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

  Madden, Max

  Dewar, Donald

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Dixon, Don

  Marek, Dr John

  Dobson, Frank

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Doran, Frank

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Douglas, Dick

  Martin, Michael (Springburn)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Martlew, Eric

  Dunnachie, James

  Maxton, John

  Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

  Meacher, Michael

  Eadie, Alexander

  Meale, Alan

  Eastham, Ken

  Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

  Fatchett, Derek

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Faulds, Andrew

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  Fearn, Ronald

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

  Morley, Elliott

  Flannery, Martin

  Morris, Rt Hon A (W'shawe)

  Flynn, Paul

  Morris, Rt Hon J (Aberavon)

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Mowlam, Mrs Marjorie

  Foster, Derek

  Mullin, Chris

  Fraser, John

  Murphy, Paul

  Fyfe, Mrs Maria

  Nellist, Dave

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Galloway, George

  O'Brien, William

  Garrett, John (Norwich South)

  O'Neill, Martin

  George, Bruce

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Godman, Dr Norman A.

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Patchett, Terry

  Gordon, Ms Mildred

  Pendry, Tom

  Gould, Bryan

  Pike, Peter

  Graham, Thomas

  Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Prescott, John

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Primarolo, Ms Dawn

  Grocott, Bruce

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Radice, Giles

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Randall, Stuart

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Reid, John

  Henderson, Douglas

  Richardson, Ms Jo

  Hinchliffe, David

  Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Robertson, George

  Holland, Stuart

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Home Robertson, John

  Rogers, Allan

  Hood, James

  Rooker, Jeff

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Howells, Geraint

  Rowlands, Ted

  Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

  Sheerman, Barry

  Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Illsley, Eric

  Short, Clare

  Ingram, Adam

  Skinner, Dennis

  Janner, Greville

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  John, Brynmor

  Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn)

  Soley, Clive

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Kennedy, Charles

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Stott, Roger

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Strang, Gavin

  Lamond, James

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Leighton, Ron

  Thomas, Dafydd Elis

  728

  Turner, Dennis

  Wilson, Brian

  Vaz, Keith

  Winnick, David

  Wall, Pat

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Wallace, James

  Worthington, Anthony

  Walley, Ms Joan

  Wray, James

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Williams, Rt Hon A. J.

  Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. Alun Michael.

  Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Motion made, and Question put,
  That the bill be committed to a Special Standing Committee.—[Mr. Alan Roberts.]
  The House divided: Ayes 208, Noes 322.

  Division No. 87]

  [12.27 am

  AYES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Dunnachie, James

  Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

  Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

  Allen, Graham

  Eadie, Alexander

  Alton, David

  Eastham, Ken

  Anderson, Donald

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Fatchett, Derek

  Armstrong, Ms Hilary

  Faulds, Andrew

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Fearn, Ronald

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Ashton, Joe

  Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

  Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

  Flannery, Martin

  Barron, Kevin

  Flynn, Paul

  Battle, John

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Beckett, Margaret

  Foster, Derek

  Benn, Rt Hon Tony

  Fraser, John

  Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

  Fyfe, Mrs Maria

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Galloway, George

  Blair, Tony

  Garrett, John (Norwich South)

  Boateng, Paul

  George, Bruce

  Boyes, Roland

  Godman, Dr Norman A.

  Bradley, Keith

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Gordon, Ms Mildred

  Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

  Gould, Bryan

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Graham, Thomas

  Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Grocott, Bruce

  Buchan, Norman

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Buckley, George

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Caborn, Richard

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Callaghan, Jim

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

  Henderson, Douglas

  Campbell-Savours, D. N.

  Hinchliffe, David

  Canavan, Dennis

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

  Holland, Stuart

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Home Robertson, John

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Hood, James

  Clay, Bob

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Clelland, David

  Howells, Geraint

  Cohen, Harry

  Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

  Corbett, Robin

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Illsley, Eric

  Cousins, Jim

  Ingram, Adam

  Crowther, Stan

  Janner, Greville

  Cryer, Bob

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Cummings, J.

  Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn)

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

  Darling, Alastair

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Lamond, James

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Dewar, Donald

  Leighton, Ron

  Dixon, Don

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)

  Dobson, Frank

  Lewis, Terry

  Doran, Frank

  Livsey, Richard

  Douglas, Dick

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  729

  Loyden, Eddie

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

  McAllion, John

  Reid, John

  McAvoy, Tom

  Richardson, Ms Jo

  McCartney, Ian

  Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

  Macdonald, Calum

  Robertson, George

  McFall, John

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Rogers, Allan

  McKelvey, William

  Rooker, Jeff

  McLeish, Henry

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  McNamara, Kevin

  Rowlands, Ted

  McWilliam, John

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Madden, Max

  Sheerman, Barry

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Marek, Dr John

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Short, Clare

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Martin, Michael (Springburn)

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Martlew, Eric

  Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

  Maxton, John

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Meacher, Michael

  Soley, Clive

  Meale, Alan

  Spearing, Nigel

  Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

  Stott, Roger

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Strang, Gavin

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Thomas, Dafydd Elis

  Morley, Elliott

  Turner, Dennis

  Morris, Rt Hon A (W'shawe)

  Vaz, Keith

  Morris, Rt Hon J (Aberavon)

  Wall, Pat

  Mowlam, Mrs Marjorie

  Wallace, James

  Mullin, Chris

  Walley, Ms Joan

  Murphy, Paul

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  Nellist, Dave

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

  O'Brien, William

  Williams, Rt Hon A. J.

  O'Neill, Martin

  Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Wilson, Brian

  Patchett, Terry

  Winnick, David

  Pendry, Tom

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Pike, Peter

  Worthington, Anthony

  Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

  Wray, James

  Prescott, John

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Primarolo, Ms Dawn

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Radice, Giles

  Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. Alun Michael.

  Randall, Stuart

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

  Alexander, Richard

  Bowis, John

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

  Allason, Rupert

  Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

  Amess, David

  Brazier, Julian

  Amos, Alan

  Bright, Graham

  Arbuthnot, James

  Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

  Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

  Ashby, David

  Browne, John (Winchester)

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

  Atkins, Robert

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

  Burns, Simon

  Baldry, Tony

  Burt, Alistair

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Butcher, John

  Batiste, Spencer

  Butler, Chris

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Butterfill, John

  Bellingham, Henry

  Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

  Bendall, Vivian

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Carrington, Matthew

  Benyon, W.

  Carttiss, Michael

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Cash, William

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Chapman, Sydney

  Body, Sir Richard

  Chope, Christopher

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

  Boswell, Tim

  Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

  Bottomley, Peter

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Colvin, Michael

  730

  Conway, Derek

  Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

  Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

  Cope, John

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

  Couchman, James

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Cran, James

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Critchley, Julian

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Irvine, Michael

  Curry, David

  Irving, Charles

  Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

  Jack, Michael

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Jackson, Robert

  Day, Stephen

  Janman, Timothy

  Devlin, Tim

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Dover, Den

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Dunn, Bob

  Key, Robert

  Durant, Tony

  King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

  Dykes, Hugh

  King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

  Eggar, Tim

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Knapman, Roger

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

  Knowles, Michael

  Evennett, David

  Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Lang, Ian

  Fallon, Michael

  Latham, Michael

  Favell, Tony

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Lightbown, David

  Forman, Nigel

  Lilley, Peter

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

  Forth, Eric

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

  Luce, Rt Hon Richard

  Freeman, Roger

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  French, Douglas

  McCrindle, Robert

  Fry, Peter

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Gardiner, George

  MacGregor, John

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

  Gill, Christopher

  Maclean, David

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Madel, David

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Major, Rt Hon John

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Malins, Humfrey

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Mans, Keith

  Gow, Ian

  Maples, John

  Gower, Sir Raymond

  Marland, Paul

  Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

  Marlow, Tony

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Greenway, John (Rydale)

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Gregory, Conal

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

  Mates, Michael

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Grist, Ian

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Ground, Patrick

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Grylls, Michael

  Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

  Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

  Mellor, David

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Miller, Hal

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Mills, Iain

  Hannam, John

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

  Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

  Harris, David

  Moate, Roger

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Hawkins, Christopher

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Hayes, Jerry

  Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

  Moss, Malcolm

  Hayward, Robert

  Moynihan, Hon C.

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Neale, Gerrard

  Heddle, John

  Needham, Richard

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Nelson, Anthony

  Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

  Neubert, Michael

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Newton, Tony

  Hind, Kenneth

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Holt, Richard

  Nicholson, Miss E. (Devon W)

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Onslow, Cranley

  Howard, Michael

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  731

  Page, Richard

  Stevens, Lewis

  Paice, James

  Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N)

  Patnick, Irvine

  Stradling Thomas, Sir John

  Patten, John (Oxford W)

  Sumberg, David

  Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Summerson, Hugo

  Pawsey, James

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Porter, David (Waveney)

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Portillo, Michael

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Price, Sir David

  Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

  Raffan, Keith

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

  Thorne, Neil

  Redwood, John

  Thornton, Malcolm

  Renton, Tim

  Thurnham, Peter

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Riddick, Graham

  Tracey, Richard

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Tredinnick, David

  Ridsdale, Sir Julian

  Trippier, David

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Trotter, Neville

  Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Viggers, Peter

  Rost, Peter

  Waddington, Rt Hon David

  Rowe, Andrew

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Rumbold, Mrs Angela

  Waldegrave, Hon William

  Ryder, Richard

  Walden, George

  Sackville, Hon Tom

  Waller, Gary

  Sainsbury, Hon Tim

  Walters, Dennis

  Scott, Nicholas

  Ward, John

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Watts, John

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Wheeler, John

  Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

  Whitney, Ray

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Sims, Roger

  Wilshire, David

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Wolfson, Mark

  Speller, Tony

  Wood, Timothy

  Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)

  Woodcock, Mike

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Yeo, Tim

  Squire, Robin

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Stanley, Rt Hon John

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Steen, Anthony

  Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd.

  Stern, Michael

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Bill accordingly committed to a Standing Committee.

  Housing Bill [Money]
  Queens Recommendation having been signified—
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Housing Bill, it is expedient to authorise—
  (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any sums required for the payment by the Secretary of State of grants under the Act;

  (b) any sums required to enable the Secretary of State to make payments to housing action trusts established under the Act;

  (c) any other expenses of the Secretary of State under the Act; and

  (d)any increase attibutable to the Act in the sums so payable under any other enactment; and

  (2) the payment out of the National Loans Fund of any sums necessary to enable the Secretary of State to make loans to housing action trusts established under the Act;
  (3) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to fulfill guarantees given by the Treasury in respect of sums borrowed by a housing action trust so established; and
  (4) the payment out of the National Loans Fund or the Consolidated Fund of any increase attributable to the Act in the sums so payable under any other enactment. — [Mrs. Roe.]
  12.42 am
  Mr. Bob Cryer: This resolution should not pass without some comment. First, it is a sloppy and wide-ranging resolution. Secondly, when dealing with money resolutions it is usual to turn to the Bill to look for an explanation. In the introduction to the Bill, there is a paragraph on its financial effects, but it does not say how much money will be spent.
  I cannot believe that the Department of the Environment, with its myriad of civil servants in the ugly buildings in Marsham street, is devoid of any possibility of hazarding some sort of reasonably accurate guess about the expenditure that will be undertaken under the terms of the Bill. Of course, central Government Departments are generally much wider of spending targets than local authorities that are continually being attacked by the Government. None the less, the Government have many civil servants who could give some outline of the expenditure involved.
  For example under the heading, "Financial effects of the Bill" we read:
  "The proposals in Part I of the Bill will result in higher rents for new tenancies granted by private landlords and housing associations and this will in turn lead to some increase in housing benefit expenditure."
  That paragraph, allied to the money resolution, means that, by way of this Bill, we are giving authority to provide a subsidy to private landlords by an increase in private housing expenditure. The Department of the Environment must have made some calculation about the financial effect of that. If it has not, then it has been sloppy.
  Therefore, I expect the Minister to tell the House how much money the Government will put in the pockets of private landlords. They are the friends of the Government and no doubt they contributed to Tory party finances. The House and the public deserve to know the extent to which this Tory Government propose to pour public cash into the pockets of the landlord sector that invariably supports the Government—and no wonder.
  My second point is that the paragraph says:
  Additionally, there will be an increase in expenditure from manpower increases noted below."

  733
  That refers to the effects of the Bill on public service manpower, which involves finance and the motion that is before us.
  We are told, under the heading "Effects of the Bill on Public Service Manpower", that
  "additional manpower will be required for Housing Action Trusts, the number dependent on the number and size of the Trusts".
  Has the Department decided to take a few additional powers to set up a few quangos, which a Conservative Member spent many years damning in this place? Those who are appointed to quangos have no democratic accountability, it is said, and it is argued by Conservatives that the number of quangos should be reduced. Conservative Members have told us gleefully — this is, when they were in opposition—that they would abolish quangos, but they are introducing legislation that will lead to an increase in the number of quangos. Apparently, the Government have no idea how many more will be set up, and therefore, no idea of the finance that will be involved.
  It is claimed that
  "The creation of Housing Action Trusts … will result in additional spending which will partially be offset by reduced local authority spending".
  That is all very well, but we are not given any figures. It seems that the Government are not prepared to hazard a guess. We are in the world of pure conjecture. We have a Government who are supposed to be making careful calculations, and we know that they are spending a great deal of taxpayers' money in so doing. I suppose that we should not be too surprised at the careless approach of the Department of the Environment, bearing in mind that the Bill was produced and printed and then had to be scrapped because the Secretary of State could not proof-read his own work. There were so many mistakes that a completely new Bill had to be printed.
  In debating the money resolution, we should say that that sort of carelessness is not good enough. The Department should present a calculation of the money that is involved. How many housing action trusts do the Government envisage establishing? Where are they to be located? How many local authorities do the Government intend to attack by spending more on manpower and womanpower for the trusts and reducing the moneys that are made available to local authorities? Will there be a quid pro quo or a net increase in expenditure? The Bill does not tell us what the outcome will be, and it should.
  The trusts will be planning authorities, and under Tory legislation planning means that charges can be made for decisions. Will revenue be set against the cost of increased manpower for the trusts? As Private Eye often says, "we should be told" about the costs that will be incurred with the Bills implementation.
  The trusts are designed to erode local accountability and democracy. Although the Government hate the democratic accountability of local authorities, it is a safeguard against excessive expenditure. Against this background, there is an even greater need for us to know the calculations that the Government have in mind when setting up the trusts, which will be quangos.
  We know from experience what sort of people the Government will appoint to the quangos. They will be carefully vetted. They will appoint their Tory cronies. They will be those who have done so badly in the private housing sector so far, who have let down manufacturing
  734
  industry, who have exploited and fiddled in the City. These are the people who will be considered. These people will be accepted only when it is certain that they can present the full party card and full party record for the Secretary of State's approval.
  Since they will be the puppets of the Government, it is even more important that we should have some measure to set against their expenditure. We should have some calculation now so that we know in the future whether the puppets of the Secretary of State are carrying out their work according to the standards laid down by the House or whether they are simply frittering away hard-earned taxpayers' money. The Government claim that they seek to safeguard that so carefully, yet they are handing it over to a group of Tories appointed by the Secretary of State.
  The Bill says:
  "Proposals to introduce new landlords for public sector tenants will lead, at least initially, to an increase in local authority staffing levels and also in central Government levels; the size of those increases will depend on the take-up of the policy."
  Do they have any idea about the take-up of the policy? They claim that it will be wildly popular. If their claims are to be substantiated, surely they have made calculations. I am sure they have ordered the desks for the civil servants, allocated the buildings and put the typewriters to one side, but how many? Is it two, three, 50 or even 1,000?
  The Bill says that there will be an increase in local authority staffing levels because of the daft scheme in this wretched piece of legislation to give local authority tenants an alternative landlord. The Government always claim that they are cutting back the bureaucratic jungle but they have not made any calculations for the money resolution. They have not made calculations as to the number of civil servants or the cost of the office machinery. Those civil servants will not put brick on brick and mix mortar but build houses. They are part of a bureaucratic jungle that the Government are building up to give tenants an illusory choice and to shift the ownership of their homes. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Mr. Roberts) explained, in some cases, tenants will be shifted whether they like it or not.
  There is nothing in the explanatory and financial memoranda about the calculations the Government have made. They claim that their policies are so popular but it appears that they have no idea in their own planning of the extent of the popularity. The House will need to know what sort of increase there will be in local authority staffing and who is to pay. Will the increase in local authority staffing come under the money resolution? We should know.
  The Government have been up to some pretty nasty tricks in the past. They produced housing benefit so that they could say that they had dismissed thousands of civil servants. The truth was that they transferred the benefit from central Government to local authorities, paying it from central Government so that they could say that they had got rid of the civil servants. In fact, the local authorities were having to employ more people to administer housing benefit.
  Is provision being made to pass on a greater grant support to local authorities, which they need, particularly in view of the rate support grant statement today? Local authorities need every penny that they can get. It would be far more sensible not to have the Bill at all, even though it has received a Second Reading, and spend the money on

  735
  other things. I suspect that it amounts to several million pounds and that that is why the Government are so shy. If it was £20,000 or £30,000, they would stand up proudly at the Dispatch Box and say, "We have done our calculations. There is a bit of money going out there but there is some revenue coming in, so, we are talking about a modest sum." If the Government are so coy about the figures, it must be because those figures are higher. The public should know the figures.
  Local authorities in Bradford are pressed for cash because the Government have reneged on a pledge. There is £6 million from council house sales that Bradford cannot use to build houses for the people in desperate need. There are thousands of people on the waiting lists—all genuine applicants. We should be going down that path, not squandering money on this mad bureaucratic shambles. This legislation has been produced because a tiny clique, called the Cabinet, with its adherrents in the Department of the Environment, have to convince the Prime Minister that they are going down a road of privatisation and choice. That is a total illusion. Neither the money resolution nor the Bill meets any of the needs of those who are desperate — the homeless who have nowhere to go and the people on the council waiting lists, who are looking to their democratically elected local authorities to build houses. They are denied that opportunity by that clique in the Department of the Environment and the rest of the Government.
  We must ensure that there is an adequate explanation from the Minister. I look forward to it with interest to find out whether we are embarking on massive — or minuscule — expenditure and whether the Bill simply represents the many illusions perpetuated by the Secretary of State for the Environment.
  12.56 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mrs. Marion Roe): I am sure that hon. Members appreciate the fact that the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) has tried to sustain the debate on the money resolution at this late hour. I remind hon. Members, however, that the money resolution simply authorises the payment out of money provided by Parliament under the Act. It does not set tags on the
  736
  amounts of money to be spent. Hon. Members will have ample opportunities to discuss these detailed points later. If the hon. Member for Bradford, South wants information about the amount of money to be spent on these various policies, I suggest that he look at the public expenditure White Paper, which is to be published in January. Accordingly, I commend the money resolution to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Housing Bill, it is expedient to authorise—
  (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any sums required for the payment by the Secretary of State of grants under the Act;

  (b)any sums required to enable the Secretary of State to make payments to housing action trusls established under the Act;

  (c) any other expenses of the Secretary of State under the Act; and

  (d)any increase attributable to the Act in the sums so payable under any other enactment; and

  (2) the payment out of the National Loans Fund of any sums necessary to enable the Secretary of State to make loans to housing action trusts established under the Act;
  (3) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to fulfil guarantees given by the Treasury in respect of sums borrowed by a housing action trust so established; and
  (4) the payment out of the National Loans Fund or the Consolidated Fund of any increase attributable to the Act in the sums so payable under any other enactment.

  HOUSING BILL [WAYS AND MEANS]
  Resolved,
  That, for the purpose of any Act resulting from the Housing Bill, it is expedient to authorise—
  (1) provision for requiring certain registered housing associations to make payments to the Secretary of State; and
  (2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund.—[Mr. Durant.]

  SCOTTISH GRAND COMMITTEE
  Motion made and Question proposed.
  That in the course of its consideration of the matter of Education in Scotland, the Scottish Grand Committee may meet in Edinburgh on Monday 7th December at half-past 10 o'clock.—[Mr. Durant]
  HON. MEMBERS: Object.

  PETITION

    Rating Reform
    12.57 am
    Mr. Sam Galbraith: I beg to ask leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of Lennoxtown. They are worried about the effect of the poll tax on a small rural community. The petition reads:
    The Abolition of Domestic Rates Etc. (Scotland) Act provides for the introduction in Scotland of a system of community charge or poll tax which will impose on the people of Scotland a system of local taxation which will take no account of the ability of the citizens to afford such taxation and will cause hardship to many who are already poor…Wherefore your petitioners pray that your honourable House repeal the Abolition of Domestic Rates Etc. (Scotland) Act.
    And your petitioners as in duty bound, will ever pray.
    To lie upon the Table.

  Land Registry
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Durant.]
  12.58 am
  Mr. John Heddle: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me this opportunity to raise a matter which is of great concern and the cause of considerable hardship and homelessness to many of my constituents and, I suspect, to those of other hon. Members — the delays which they and their solicitors experience because of problems in Her Majesty's Land Registry. I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General for being here to respond to the debate. I look forward to hearing his proposals for improving the current position, which in the eyes of many, and especially of those professional institutions directly connected with the sale and transfer of land and property, may be wholly unacceptable.
  The House will be aware of the valuable work performed by Her Majesty's Land Registry. I was a practising surveyor for many years, so I am well aware that the Land Registration Act imposed upon the Land Registry a system of land registration and ownership that made property transfers in general, and house transfers in particular, a simpler and more efficient process.
  However, all is not well. On 30 August The Sunday Times, under a banner heading
  "Land title delays leave buyers homeless".
  stated:
  "A staffing crisis at the Government's Land Registry is adding thousands of pounds to the cost of building new houses and forcing them to stand empty even though buyers are ready to move in … Solicitors do not usually recommend people to buy a new or converted property unless title deeds have have been drawn up by the Land Registry, which is taking up to 10 months to process them … Builders who have borrowed money to finance developments are faced with big interest payments because the newly-built homes are hard to sell without the deeds. The interest is then added to the cost of the property."
  The National House Building Council has said that delays are adding up to £3,000 to the cost of a new home. The Sunday Times cited the case of someone who had made an offer on a new flat in the south-east of England six months ago. Despite selling his property and being ready to move in, the bank providing his mortgage could not release the funds because the Croydon land registry office had not been able to process the title deeds. All 12 flats in the same development have stood empty for many months for the same reason.
  In my constituency of Mid-Staffordshire, a Mr. Parkes of a firm of solicitors in Bore street, Litchfield—Messrs. Keely, Smith and Jobson—wrote to me on 21 October saying:
  "As a solicitor in Litchfield I am constantly encountering delays at H.M. Land Registry which seriously complicate conveyancing transactions and lead to extra substantial time and expense being incurred. Examples of delay which I have encountered are too numerous to mention but one recent (and on-going) example is not untypical.
  I shall shorten the letter. He said:
  "On 10 March, 1987 I completed a very simple transfer of a house from husband and wife to the husband following a divorce settlement. The title to the house was unregistered but because it was in a compulsory registration area the transaction had to be registered at the Land Registry. Registration was applied for immediately and in the acknowledgement it was stated that the application was likely to take about 25 weeks to complete—6 months."

  739
  Mr. Parkes cited almost letter by letter and chapter and verse by chapter and verse the correspondence that then took place between his practice and the local office of the Land Registry. He wrote:
  "In the meantime the property has been sold and a draft Contract submitted. However, it is quite clear that the sale cannot proceed until the problem has been solved and there is every likelihood that the sale which has been negotiated may fall through as a result of the delay. My client will then have to remarket the property—probably having missed out on the best season for selling."
  The client would also incur a considerable sum in abortive fees and expenses.
  As the House will know, there are 16 Land Registry offices throughout England and Wales employing 7,310 loyal, permanent, qualified staff—an increase on the 7,029 personnel employed for the 12 months to March. The Land Registry, which I understand is still only partly computerised, made a trading surplus in the last financial year of £26 million. It charges home buyers between £80 and £130 for each registration, depending on the price of the property. That is why I thought it important to raise the matter on the Floor of the House tonight on behalf of my constituents.
  The problem is that the Land Registry cannot invest that surplus in increasing its personnel and training its staff. The surplus has to go back to the Treasury. I understand that the Government are refusing to allow it to hire extra staff to overcome the very considerable backlog and the delay in the transfer of property.
  A report by the National Audit Office earlier this year called upon the Treasury to invest some of the registry's revenue surplus in new staff, and I understand that senior officers in the Land Registry are now themselves admitting that they have little hope of being able to deal with the backlog or completing the compulsory registration programme on time unless some 1,500 additional staff are engaged. Mr. John Pryer the Chief Land Registrar, is, I believe, on record as saying this—and although I have not cleared this with him personally, it is in the national press to this effect:
  "It is embarrassing that we make this money."—
  I think that it is wholly to his credit that he makes it—
  "We are negotiating with the Treasury to spend some of it on more staff next year but they will take time to train. I am not optimistic about the short term. The people will not see any improvement for at least a year".
  He goes on,
  "There is little doubt that the reasons for the inordinate delay now being experienced by members of the public and by their solicitors are due to buoyancy in the property market for which the Government in its determination to help people realise their lifelong ambition of home ownership, particularly amongst first-time buyers, should take some credit".
  The chief registrar has stated in his annual report to the Lord Chancellor that for some 12 months there has been a high level of activity in the property market, fuelled by a plentiful supply of money available for mortgages. This activity has resulted, in turn, in a substantial increase in the registry's workload—an increase in the volume of work approaching some 25 per cent.
  There is no doubt, too, that the substantial rise in the number of applications for first registration is in part due to the continued programme of compulsory registration. It also reflects the general rise in the level of property sales throughout England and Wales. I understand that the total number of registrations this year is the same as in the record year of 1982–83, when the full impact of the Government's right-to-buy legislation was first felt. Over
  740
  the past 12 months some. 51,000 applications arising directly out of the exercise by tenants of their right to buy have been received by the registry. This represents some 12 per cent. of all applications for first registrations which the registry has received.
  May I draw my hon. and learned Friend's attention to a number of comments made by the chief land registrar in his current report. Firstly, on dealings in registered land, he says that once again for the sixth successive year an overall increase has been recorded, resulting during that time in the doubling of the volume of applications received to nearly 4·3 million. This year's increase of 19·3 per cent. in the work load is the second highest in the past six years.
  On preliminary services, he says that during 1986–87 the number of applications for an official search, office copies and other ancillary services has increased by over 28 per cent. to a total number of transactions of 5·26 million.
  In his annual report, the chief land registrar goes on to say,
  "Although I take some encouragement from this, I must again draw attention to the fact that the provision of this service does have an adverse effect on the speed and efficiency with which other applications can be processed."
  On speed of working, the Chief Land Registrar says,
  "During the year completion times have deteriorated very seriously. The rise in the volume of substantive applications has made it quite impossible for the Registry to cope as effectively as it would wish. Furthermore, the need to ensure the maintenance, the high level of service and the regard to applications for official searches and office copy entries necessitated diversion of staff away from dealing with substantive applications".
  By producing for the Treasury a surplus of over £26 million on an expenditure of £102 million, a return of about 27 per cent, the Land Registry is the epitome of Government cost-effectiveness, but, because of the unprecedented volume of business and the failure perhaps of the legal profession to anticipate the log jam which would arise from this level of business, the service is falling down on its obligation to provide the public with value for money. The consequence is hardship to all hon. Members' constituents and certainly to mine, leading in some cases to homelessness, as well as to loss of morale within the Land Registry. It is a situation that can be tolerated no longer.
  I plead with my hon. and learned Friend, therefore, that something should be done. I wish to put two suggestions to him. First, I suggest that he urges our right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to allow — in this particular and extraordinary instance and until the backlog of work has been eliminated — the Land Registry to borrow back the £26 million surplus to enable it to recruit and to train more staff.
  Mr. Gerald Bowden: I share my hon. Friend's concern about the delays and agree that his suggested solution offers a way out of the problem at the Land Registry. Is he aware, however, that local searches involving records kept by local authorities involve additional delays? Only this week, the Chartered Surveyor Weekly reported a case previously reported in the All England Law Reports relating to a property in my constituency. In the case of Rignall Developments Limited v. Halil, because of the impossibility of obtaining details from the local authority register, it was found that there was a defect in the title that was sold. In that case, which was heard in the chancery division, Mr. Justice Millett said:

  741
  "the time taken by many local authorities, particularly in London, to reply to inquiries and to deal with applications for official searches of the registers kept by them has become a scandal which threatens the proper working of the free market."
  His words applied directly to Southwark's failure in that respect, but I believe that they have application all over the country.
  Mr. Heddle: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Mr. Justice Millett's words are far more eloquent testimony than I could possible give in support of my case.
  My second suggestion is that, with the chief registrar and his colleagues, my hon. and learned Friend should discuss with the Law Society the concept of contracting out to firms of solicitors in the areas where the district Land Registry offices are situated the more routine and mundane matters which are causing the log jam so that qualified staff at the Land Registry's regional offices can deal more expeditiously with first and subsequent registrations.
  Finally, I suggest that in the longer term my hon. and learned Friend should review the whole working of the whole system to ensure that the present crisis does not recur. Professional institutions engaged in the purchase, sale and transfer of land and property might be enabled to establish machinery to work alongside the Land Registry so as to ensure its continuing integrity, cost-effectiveness and response to public demand. The Government rightly wish to ensure that people can aspire to home ownership as easily as possible. I believe, therefore, that we have a duty to ensure that that machinery runs smoothly.
  1.13 am
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell): I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Heddle) for raising this important issue, which is the concern of all who are engaged in conveyancing and mortgage activities. My hon. Friend's deep knowledge of the world of property is well known to the House. It is a pleasure to see with him my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden), who also has deep professional knowledge of these matters, and my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson).
  In my response to the debate, I hope to show not only that the Government recognise the substance of my hon. Friend's concerns and the circumstances giving rise to them but that the Lord Chancellor, with the consent of the Treasury, has taken and will continue to take steps to remedy the delays and to modernise and improve still further the valuable services that the Land Registry provides.
  This year marks the 125th anniversary of the founding of the Land Registry and it is perhaps indicative of the well-established, well-ordered conduct of the business of the registry that its activities are so rarely discussed in this House. I particularly welcome, therefore, the opportunity to describe the factors that have brought about the present difficulties that the registry and its customers confront and the measures that the Government and the chief land registrar are taking to restore the speed of service that the conveyancing community is entitled to expect.
  Development of a national land register has been supported by successive Governments, not only to provide
  742
  security of title backed by state guarantee and provision for indemnity, but to provide the machinery whereby conveyancing and other property activity can be simplified and costs reduced. Throughout this century, as compulsory registration provisions have been extended to new administrative areas, so the land register in England and Wales has developed, with more and more titles being brought on to the national register. Now, nearly 11 million titles are registered and in excess of 90 per cent. of all conveyancing transactions are handled by the department. My hon. Friend will be glad to know that under present plans, the compulsory programme will be completed by 1990.
  One of the most marked developments in this country during this decade has been the growth of home ownership, and the expansion of property activity, greatly aided by the ready availability of mortgage finance. There is a continuing demand by people to buy and to improve their own homes. Not only is there a greater awareness in the private and in the business and commercial sectors that property is a unique asset and a sound investment, but the institutions and finance houses recognise, too, the investment value of mortgage portfolios. This heightened activity in property and in property finance has led to unprecedented numbers of applications being made to the Land Registry, not only in respect of searches and inquiries of the register, but for registration of new owners of land and mortgages.
  Widening owner-occupation has been a central and successful feature of Government policy, most notably through the right to buy legislation under the Housing Acts, and we welcome and encourage the continued increase in home ownership and home improvement supported by a buoyant first and second mortgage market. As my hon. Friend rightly said, we are, to some extent, victims of our own success.
  For the Land Registry, the continued development of private ownership and property activity has meant an exceptional growth in its commitments with a trebling of the applications received in the past 10 years, a doubling in the past five years with an increase of 25 per cent. in 1986–87 over the preceding year. In the first half of this year, applications received increased by a further 9 per cent. It is this relentless demand for registration services that has led over the past two years to an accumulation of unprocessed applications for registration and consequently to the delays that have prompted this debate.
  The work of the Land Registry divides broadly into two main areas. First, precontract and precompletion applications for office copies and official searches of the register and of the public index map. The applications are time-sensitive as they are initiated by or on behalf of intending purchasers or mortgagees seeking essential information and guarantees from the registry prior to the exchange of contracts or prior to the completion of a prospective purchase or loan. These applications, some 5·2 million in 1986–87, currently account for about two thirds of all applications received by the department. They are given priority by the Chief Land Registrar so as to ensure that intended conveyances and mortgage transactions can go forward without delay. It is right to say that not only are 60 per cent. of these applications processed by the registry within its target time of 48 hours, but over 90 per cent. are completed and despatched within four days of receipt.

  743
  The second area of work handled by the department is the registration of new owners and new mortgagees following completion of conveyancing transactions. These substantive registrations account for the remaining one third of all applications received and totalled 2·6 million in 1986–87. Because of the massive growth in its work load the Land Registry has had to deploy an increasing proportion of its available manpower resource on the time-sensitive precontract and precompletion searches and office copies, leaving a reduced proportion to contain the substantive applications for registration which have also increased in number. It is to the credit of the Land Registry and its staff that it has in successive years increased the total number of applications processed and, in 1986–87, completed a record number of applications and achieved a productivity improvement of more than 3 per cent.
  Over the period of five years between April 1982 and March 1987 the Land Registry secured an increase in its permanent manpower of nearly a third, but since early 1985 staffing levels had not kept pace with the rapidly rising work loads which have greatly exceeded expectations. This factor is the root cause of the present difficulties.
  Under the legislation governing its activities, the Land Registry is required to raise, through fees, sufficient money to cover all its outgoings. Fees are based, for most transactions, on the value of the property. With rapidly growing intakes and the rise in property values total registry fee income has increased markedly, generating surpluses in excess of the approved expenditure limits authorised under Supply procedures. The Land Registry has sought to limit its fees and so to limit the growth in its potential total fee income with the making of two fee orders in 1985 and 1986, each of which had the effect of reducing the fee-earning capacity of the fee scales. Nevertheless, the reductions in the fee scales were more than offset by the high level of activity and the rise in property prices. As a result, significant surpluses of fee income over expenditure authorisations have been paid into the Consolidated Fund. My hon. Friend was right to make that point. It has always been the case that if the Chief Land Registrar were able more readily to direct registry fee income into additional resource in order to maintain registry services, he could ensure that arrears of uncompleted applications did not accumulate and an efficient and prompt service be maintained at all times. My hon. Friends will be pleased to hear that the Government have accepted that there may be circumstances in the case of fee-earning bodies which are self-financing, such as the Land Registry, where net control could be preferable to fixed expenditure limits provided that acceptable efficiency criteria and performance yardsticks are used to ensure value for money. Such an approach would provide for the additional revenues generated by the increased volumes of applications to pay for the staff and other resources that the Land Registry needs to maintain the output necessary, if the speed of services is to be maintained.
  The Land Registry and Her Majesty's Treasury have examined alternative financing arrangements and I am also pleased to be able to state that this month my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has agreed
  744
  new arrangements which will be established as from the coming financial year and which will exempt the Land Registry from gross running cost control. This will provide far greater flexibility and greater scope for the Chief Land Registrar to direct fee income toward registration services.
  It is thus clear that the Land Registry must now be brought up to a strength which matches the conveyancing and mortgage business generated in England and Wales and so enable it to meet the demands made upon it. In view of the growing arrears of unprocessed work the Land Registry sought and secured in July, by way of a summer Supplementary Estimate, an increase of 500 permanent posts for the current year. The majority of these posts have now been filled with new recruits and a massive training programme is now under way. Apart from that specific increase and the underlying changes in the basis of financing to which I have already referred, I am pleased to be able to say that as part of the annual public expenditure survey an appropriate and significant increase in expenditure and manpower has been approved for 1988–89 which will enable the Department to meet its projected commitments for that year and contain, and eventually reduce, the backlog of outstanding casework
  To meet the growth in its business the Land Registry is developing, as a matter of high priority, its regional structure. New offices have been opened in Telford, Coventry and Hull and are presently giving valuable assistance to the hard-pressed district registries in the south. In 1988 it is planned that each of these sub-offices takes on responsibility for its own area as a district registry in its own right. Two further offices are likely to be opened before 1990. These developments will serve to take the pressure off the most heavily burdened district registries especially those in the south where conveyancing activity has been especially high.
  In September last year the Land Registry introduced computer processing at its Plymouth district registry. Under the new system registers in conventional form are computerised as transactions arise, so facilitating the processing of all subsequent transactions affecting the computerised titles. Already some 100,000 titles have been computerised and 20 per cent. of transactions affecting registered land received at Plymouth relate to these titles. Following an evaluation of the project at Plymouth approval has now been given to introduce computer operations at all district registries. Implementation is planned for the Gloucester and Swansea offices in 1988 and progressively to all other district registries over the next five years.
  The Land Registry is the custodian of a valuable, unique and active record of land ownership for England and Wales and provides the essential machinery for simplifying and modernising the conveyancing process. I am confident—I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his suggestions—that with the measures that I have referred to and the continued endeavours of the Chief Land Registrar and his staff the registry will restore the levels and speed of service that it and its customers want to see.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-six minutes past One o 'clock.

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  Pontefract District Health Authority
  Yorkshire Regional Health Authority
  Yorkshire Regional Health Authority
  Nursing (Training)
  Nursing (Training)
  Anti-flu Vaccine (Hull)
  Anti-flu Vaccine (Hull)
  Low Income Workers
  Low Income Workers
  Social Fund
  Social Fund
  Supplementary Benefit Offices
  Supplementary Benefit Offices
  Social Security Offices (Wales)
  Social Security Offices (Wales)
  General Practitioners
  General Practitioners
  National Health Service Employees
  National Health Service Employees
  Dental and Optical Test Charges
  Dental and Optical Test Charges
  Birmingham Children's Hospital (Baby's Death)
  Birmingham Children's Hospital (Baby's Death)
  Adult Dependant's Additions
  Adult Dependant's Additions
  Invalid Care Allowance
  Invalid Care Allowance
  Mortality
  Mortality
  Cancer (Women)
  Cancer (Women)
  Hospital Car Services
  Hospital Car Services
  Heart Surgery
  Heart Surgery
  Water Charges
  Water Charges
  Insurance Companies
  Insurance Companies
  Maidstone General Hospital
  Maidstone General Hospital
  Income-Related Assistance
  Income-Related Assistance
  Abortion
  Abortion
  Housing Benefit
  Housing Benefit
  Skoal Bandits
  Skoal Bandits
  Electricity Prices
  Electricity Prices

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.

Severn Estuary: Tidal Barrage
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what consideration has been given to the likely environmental consequences of constructing an electricity-generating tidal barrage on the Severn Estuary.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, the current programme of work on the Severn barrage includes studies of environmental aspects. Indeed, to facilitate this the Severn Tidal Power Group has set up an environmental advisory panel which will look into these aspects.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Has he any information about a survey of the soil and the ground-bearing strength for this project and have any conclusions been drawn?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, core samples of the estuary bed have been taken by a drilling barge. Sonar and seismic surveys have also been made of the area along the possible line of the barrage. However, a fully detailed survey will not be completed until it is required for final design purposes.
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that any large project has some unfortunate environmental effect, and provided that it is not excessive, that is no reason for turning the project down?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I agree that tidal energy is one of the most promising of our renewable resources. The current research programme which concentrates on the Severn and Mersey estuaries is aimed at reducing uncertainties on cost, performance, regional and environmental issues.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, will my noble friend say whether any other estuaries have been examined for that purpose, and notably Kylesku on the West Coast of Sutherland?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I do not have any details about that particular estuary but I can say that outline feasibility studies have been carried out for the Dee estuary, Morecambe Bay, Solway Firth, the Humber and the Wash. However, all those areas are less favourable economically than the Severn or Mersey estuaries.
Lord Moran: My Lords, while acknowledging and paying tribute to the efforts that the Severn Tidal Power Group is making to deal with environmental problems, including the problem of the passage of migratory fish through any barrage, is the noble Viscount aware of the scientific work undertaken in the United States which suggests that fish passing through Kaplan turbines of the kind planned on the Severn barrage have an instantaneous mortality rate of between 11·5 per cent. and 80 per cent. and that 43 per cent. of salmon smolts passing through such turbines lose 20 to 28 per cent. of their scales; moreover that 75 per cent. of those that survive have gross or microscopic lesions? In the light of that knowledge, will the noble Viscount ask those responsible to consider very carefully alternatives to migratory fish passing downstream through the turbines, such as the establishment of free gaps at each end of the barrage?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I shall certainly draw the noble Lord's remarks to the attention of those involved.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that in fact there may very well be environmental gains in the Severn estuary in that a tidal barrage could encourage a greater diversity of flora and fauna in the area? Will he confirm that the creation of a tidal renewable energy source will bring environmental gain, in that fewer coal-fired and nuclear generating plants will be required, thus reducing any increase in the amount of carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, sulphur dioxide, nuclear wastes and radiation released into the environment?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, may well be right on both points. The environmental studies that are now in train are designed to clarify areas of uncertainty and to explore those that require further study, so as to assemble information which can be developed into an environmental impact assessment to support a decision to proceed with construction.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, while the barrage scheme for the Severn has been under consideration it has been possible for assurances to be given about damage to birds and other wildlife. Is my noble friend again able to give assurances that a difference in the levels of the water will not seriously damage wildlife?
Viscount Davidson: No, my Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give any assurances at this stage, as this is part of the study that is being carried out at the moment.
Baroness White: My Lords, is the noble Viscount able to tell the House whether anyone is looking at the possible inter-relationship between the smaller Taff barrage which is proposed and the adjacent Severn barrage, which could have considerable effects on birds and other wildlife?
Viscount Davidson: No, my Lords, I am afraid I do not know the answer to that question, but I shall draw it to the attention of those involved.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, the House debated the Bondi Report five years ago, since when there have been at least three inquiries into the viability of the scheme, in addition to the Wimpey Atkins Report. Can the noble Viscount say what has happened to all those reports? Why are the Government taking such a long time to make a statement and to make up their mind? Will he be good enough to indicate the conclusions at which the Government have arrived on the three major inquiries that have taken place and when they are likely to make a statement?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, the Government have reached the conclusion that we should get on with further in-depth research and planning into the practical rather than the theoretical. Your Lordships may not understand quite how large the scale of the Severn barrage project is, affecting as it would an extensive regional area and the interests of many individual and institutional bodies. The depth of knowledge acquired so far on many topics does not allow us to satisfy at the moment all the relevant questions which can be asked on the various aspects of the scheme. If we had gone ahead without looking further into these matters we should have been criticised.

Electricity Charges: Effect on Exports
2.43 p.m.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what impact the proposed increase in electricity charges will have on the competitiveness of British industry's exports.
The Secretary of State for Trade and industry (Lord Young of Graffham): My Lords, the proposed increase will add one-sixth of 1 per cent. to industry's costs. The impact on competitiveness will depend upon a variety of factors, including the movement of labour and other costs, many of which are under industry's own control.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, does the noble Lord not agree that, while British industry has done extremely well in recent months in increasing its exports, it now has many obstacles in its path; that interest rates in real terms are still higher than those in most of our competitor countries; that it is faced with a currency which is increasing in value every day and therefore making competition more difficult; and that, on top of that, the Government have chosen this very moment to add to electricity costs, which in the case of many leading export industries are very serious indeed?
Lord Young of Graffham: No, my Lords. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ezra. Indeed, our
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exports depend in many instances upon non-price competitiveness—matters such as design, quality, delivery and after-sales service. The electricity supply industry has a current return on current cost assets of 3·75 per cent. for 1988–89 and 4·75 per cent. for 1989–90. This compares with an average real rate of return of 10 per cent. for all United Kingdom industrial and commercial companies in 1986.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, are we right in taking it that when my noble friend speaks of one-sixth of 1 per cent. as the on-cost of electricity to industry, that is an average taken over industry as a whole? If that is the case, does he not agree that in cases of capital intensive industries, such as chemicals and petrochemicals, the difference is very much greater?
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, it follows that in large parts of industry it will be much less than one-sixth of 1 per cent. It is true to say that even chemicals and textiles, the most intensive cost sectors, will have increases of less than 1 per cent. in 1988. Wages have been rising at about 3 per cent. over the rate of inflation for the past five years in manufacturing industry. I believe that we should look at both in perspective.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the chemical industry, in which I declare an interest, uses something like 18 per cent. of the total electricity, and that some of the major users of electricity find themselves being made totally uncompetitive with people on the Continent? Will he also accept that, in particular, the producers of French chlorine are buying electricity at something like half the price which the chemical industry in this country is paying? This surely cannot be to the benefit of an industry which has a £2 billion export surplus.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, it is true that in narrow areas in the realm of industrial gases the cost of electricity is very high. It may well be that some Continental users have special price arrangements, as indeed we have in the industrial consumers' scheme, which gives discounts of up to 11 per cent., with an average of 6 per cent. across industry. But on average our power costs are about half those prevailing in Japan and lower than those in many countries of Europe.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the regional electricity boards in this country have been able to offer some small reductions to their largest industrial consumers?
Lord Young of Graffham: Yes, my Lords. I am very grateful to my noble friend. We have seen reductions in power costs, electricity costs, of 15 per cent. in real terms over the past five years, and the proposed increase does little more than take back some of those reductions. Industry would be much more concerned if by the year 2000 we did not have an adequate supply of electricity. Surely it must be our first charge to see that this takes place.
Lord Shackleton: My Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the increase for the aluminium smelting industry, which above all is sensitive to this cost?
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, if the noble Lord cares to put down a Question on specific industries I shall be only too happy to answer.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, how much attention is paid to recommendations from consumer boards, which in the North-West in particular are saying that there is no need for any increase at all?
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, I am quite aware that consumer boards may well say that, although I should be interested to have evidence of such. Nevertheless, in order to meet the demand as we approach the year 2000 we have to invest some £30 billion at 1987 prices. A rate of return of 3¾ per cent. going to 4¾ per cent. is hardly an excessive rate of return and is necessary to ensure that we can begin to finance on any basis this very considerable investment programme.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, while I accept the points that the Minister has made, perhaps I may ask him whether he can tell us why these price increases did not start last year.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, we have been waiting for some years for the results of planning inquiries in order to allow this investment programme to proceed. It is only now that the investment programme is in the process of proceeding. It is only now that the commercial return will be necessary.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, is it not true that the percentage profit that the noble Lord has given us is based on current cost accounting, whereas it is normal to do it on historical cost? What would be the figure for the electricity industry if it were not based on current cost accounting?
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, I am happy to assure the noble Baroness that it would be a great deal lower.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his use of the profit return in the electricity industry by reference to current cost accounting will deceive no one? In point of fact in terms of historic cost the percentage achieved is somewhere in the region of 14 per cent., which is quite general at this time. Will the noble Lord give the House an assurance that his department's Press Notice No. 720 of 24th November has been sent to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy? That press notice revealed that the trade deficit for manufactured goods in the United Kingdom is running at some £9 billion per annum and that the industry cannot afford to have its prices made less competitive than those which already exist at present under the disability of quite inane exchange rate policies on the part of the Government.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, first, I must apologise to the House and to the noble Baroness, Lady Seear. On historic cost accounting the return would be higher.
I point out to the noble Lord that recent estimates have shown that the balance of payments for this year will be in the range forecast by the Chancellor. It is the non-price competitiveness which determines in many instances the success of our exports. That will not be affected by an average increase of one-sixth of 1 per cent. in electricity costs.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that the basic reason for increasing electricity costs is the Government's plan to privatise the electricity industry?
Lord Young of Graffham: No, my Lords. The basic reason for increasing electricity costs is to ensure that we get an adequate and commercial return out of which we can prepare to meet an investment of £30 billion which is needed by the end of the century to maintain continuity of electricity supplies.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, my noble friend has twice mentioned the total cost of £30 billion for this new investment. Are we to understand that that will be underwritten by the Government or, the industry having been privatised, will it fall on the private investors?
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, some of the investment which goes ahead now will of course fall within the period of public ownership. I hope that a very large bulk of the cost will be met by the private sector.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the increases in electricity costs will also affect the domestic area? Will the Government endeavour to see that poor old-age pensioners and other people who could be put in difficulties by the increased charges will receive some assistance from the DHSS to meet the electricity increases which the Government now intend to impose?
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will understand that a Question about the competitiveness of British industry's exports in the light of the increase of electricity charges to industry is a long way away from the DHSS and old-age pensioners.
Lord Denham: My Lords, we are going a little bit far on this particular Question. We have spent eight or nine minutes on it. It is the general agreement of the House that the average time should be five minutes per Question. Perhaps we may pass on to the next Question.

London Underground: Graffiti
2.53 p.m.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking to stop the defacement by graffiti of London Underground trains and stations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, action against this sort of vandalism is one of the priorities of the programme against crime which London Underground Limited are undertaking following the Department of Transport's report of last year on Crime on the London Underground. The Government have made £15 million available over three years for this programme.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that hopeful Answer. However, is he aware that this nuisance has now reached such serious proportions that pretty well every train on the Underground is defaced at least once a week? A large part of staff time is spent cleaning the trains of this kind of paint and ink which is particularly difficult to remove. Would my noble friend consider strengthening the police resources of London Underground so that it has a better prospect of catching the culprits?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I agree that there is a serious problem. It is estimated that it will cost London Underground three-quarters of a million pounds in the current year. As regards the police, the number of British Transport Police on the Underground has been increased by 25 per cent. in the past year, from 280 to 350 officers. Therefore the problem is taken very seriously.
Viscount Ingleby: My Lords, would it not be the most effective deterrent for those responsible to have to spend several hours of their own time cleaning up under police supervision?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, that would be a matter for the prosecuting authorities or the magistrates. However, I certainly think that it would be a very good idea.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, does the Minister agree that normal crime (if one can use the word "normal") on the Underground is rather different from this matter of graffiti and vandalism to which the original Question referred? Could it not be connected with the diminution of staff, particularly on the suburban Underground stations? Those are frequently completely unstaffed. Has the Minister seen the scheme launched by the Tyne and Wear Passenger Transport Executive called Metro Watch, which is carrying out educational work, particularly in schools, and through publicity? It also pays special attention to patrols.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, executing graffiti is a crime whatever way one looks at it. I have not seen the Tyne and Wear scheme but I shall certainly look into that. The Government's programme has started with a pilot project in one
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particular depot. Most of this damage is done to trains in depots and in sidings. That project is showing successful results. If it proves to be a success, it is capable of being extended over all the depots. I hope that that will have a good effect.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I have been informed that certain railway stations actually provide some spaces which graffiti artists are encouraged to use instead of messing up trains and other places. Is there any truth in that, and has there been any result from it?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I have not heard that that is the case. I am not certain that we should do anything to encourage graffiti whether or not by providing places in which to do it.
Lord Annan: My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that he will be following up the proposal that was mentioned a moment ago? That was in relation to the graffiti being cleaned up by first-offenders who have been sentenced to community service rather than sending such first-offenders to custodial sentence in prisons and institutions which are already overcrowded. Will the noble Lord also look into the question of whether this kind of work in community service is in any way being impeded by trade union restrictive practices?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I shall have to look into those questions as they do not specifically relate to the London Underground. It is certainly a matter for the magistrates, but I shall draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the noble Lord's remarks.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, I hope my noble friend will be encouraged to do what he can to help London Transport at this time when it is spending some £80 million to improve the appearance of trains and stations. That will generally tend to reduce the risk of the unpleasant crimes we now see there. Will my noble friend kindly pursue the point that has been made about the kind of punishment that may be meted out to the culprits should they be caught?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I shall indeed. This is a serious and a dangerous problem. Not very long ago a young boy of only 11 was making graffiti when he was hit by a train and killed. This matter should be taken seriously; it is not a joke. I hope that that will soon be seen to be the case.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether or not most of these offences are committed by young people? If that is so, is it not the responsibility of parents to see what their children are doing rather than that of the Government?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the noble Countess makes a very good point. I understand that most of the offences are committed by young people. At the moment, there is a particular cult, mainly composed of teenagers, who take part in this crime. As I have already said, the other day there was a

811
tragic fatality involving one of those young people. Parents and teachers should certainly discourage children from doing this.

Security Services Ombudsman: Access
3 p.m.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether Members of both Houses of Parliament will have access to the ombudsman for the security services.
The Minister of State, Home Office (The Earl of Caithness): My Lords, no.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, may I ask the Minister why?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the reason, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said on 2nd November, is that a staff counsellor will be available to be consulted by any member of the security and intelligence services who has anxieties relating to the work of his or her service.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, will the Minister agree that Members of both Houses of Parliament, representing as they do in the lower House the people of this country and in this House the wisdom of this country—
Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord Mishcon:—could make a contribution that is invaluable and that in any event ought to be their right as public representatives?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Lord is on a slightly different point which has to do with the oversight of the security services. As I explained in our debate in this House on 17th December 1986, we believe that the direct ministerial responsibility which pertains at the moment is the best way to continue.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, is the Minister aware that Members of both Houses of Parliament, as well as many political commentators, think that the creation of such a post would be very worth while? It could possibly prevent a future destabilisation of a democratically elected British government, which is a task that many of us believed to be its primary objective. Do the Government not care that security services might be involved in a possible destabilisation of British governments? Will the creation of the office of ombudsman not help to deter such future behaviour?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I am grateful that the noble Lord agrees that the creation of the post is worth while. We believe that it will serve a useful purpose for the members of the security and intelligence services. However, it is distinct from and not related to the oversight of the services.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, perhaps I may follow up the point made by my noble friend Lord Mishcon. Does the noble Lord not agree that there is a difference between ministerial scrutiny and parliamentary scrutiny? Is there not a strong case for setting up a committee of Privy Counsellors, for example, to whom the new security ombudsman can report?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, there is indeed a case for what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has suggested. That was put forward in our debate on 17th December. For the reasons which I gave then, we think that the present arrangements are the right way forward.

Business
3.4 p.m.
Lord Denham: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that the Committee stage of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Bill will be adjourned at approximately 7 p.m. for approximately one hour and that during this adjournment the Merchant Shipping (Passenger Ship Construction) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 1987 will be taken.

Landlord and Tenant Bill [H.L.]
Lord Coleraine: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make new provision for imposing statutory duties in connection with covenants in tenancies against assigning, underletting, charging or parting with the possession of tenancies without consent. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Coleraine.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Scottish Development Agency Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and to be printed.
Urban Development Corporations (Financial Limits) Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and to be printed.

Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Bill
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Belstead, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the Lords following be named of the Select Committee to whom the Bill has been committed:

Craigavon, V.

Dormand of Easington, L.

Grey, E.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L. (Chairman)

Trafford, L.; and

That the Committee do meet at eleven o'clock on Tuesday the 8th of December.—(Lord Hesketh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Highland Region Harbours (Miscellaneous Powers) Order Confirmation Bill
Read a third time, and passed.
Lerwick Harbour Order Confirmation Bill
Read a third time, and passed.

Coroners Bill [H.L.]
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern): My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of recommitment be discharged.
Moved, That the order of recommitment be discharged.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, perhaps I may thank the members of the Consolidation Committee for the work they put in on the Bill. This is not a unique consolidation, but perhaps it is appropriate from time to time for the House to express its gratitude to those applying their minds to such arduous and often difficult labours.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I speak for the committee, since I was its chairman until recently. I am sure that the gratitude of noble Lords is much appreciated. I see that my immediate predecessor as chairman of the committee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman, is in his place. I am sure he is equally grateful.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Copyright, Designs and Patents Bill [H.L.]
3.8 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Beaverbrook.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Copyright and copyright works]:
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 12, leave out ("original").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. I standing in my name and in the name of my
814
noble friend Lord Morton of Shuna. In moving the amendment, I take the opportunity to declare an interest which I should have declared had I been able to speak on Second Reading. I am a director of Pergamon Holdings Limited, which, through various subsidiaries, has many interests in publishing, films, broadcasting and cable programmes, covering a wide spectrum of the Bill. I hope that that does not preclude me from leading for the Opposition on this particular matter.
I should also like to take the opportunity of explaining to the Committee how the Opposition intends to conduct itself during the Committee stage. There are a number of amendments which are of a probing nature, and I hope that the Government Front Bench will take them as such. The Bill is long and complex. We take the view on this side of the Committee that we do not like legislation to pass without at least having an understanding of what it is about and making sure that the Government have an understanding of what it is about.
As my noble friend Lord Morton of Shuna warned on Second Reading, there will also be a number of clause stand part debates. I apologise for that. It is not a technique that I particularly like because I believe that one should give the Government notice of points to be raised. Nevertheless, there are clarificatory questions which we shall ask which are not proper as amendments but which are the subject of clause stand part debates. I therefore apologise to the noble Lord opposite if I get up and put a number of clarificatory questions to him when the Question is put.
Amendment No. 1 is a probing amendment which is not intended as an amendment to the Bill as such. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will throw away the first part of his brief which says that if this word were to be cut out of the Bill it would destroy the foundations of the Bill.
The question of what is meant by the word "original" has concerned the courts since the 1911 Act and the 1956 Act. In neither of these Acts was there a definition of "original" and the problem is to know whether one should leave the question of defining what Parliament means by "original" to the courts or whether Parliament should properly put a definition into the present Bill.
The Notes on Clauses, which have been extremely helpful in the case of this particular Bill, contain a summary of the case law which has arisen out of the 1911 and 1956 Acts, particularly the 1956 Act. They quote a judgment which I believe was made in the case of University of London Press Ltd. v. University Tutorial Press Ltd., one sentence of which states that the courts have approved,
"a rough practical test that what is worth copying is worth protecting".
The question before us is therefore, is it right to leave this to the courts? It is after all a fundamental part of copyright law that it is for the protection of original work. In the Bill as drafted is not the argument in danger of becoming rather circular? If Parliament leaves the word "original" without a definition in the Bill then it will be for the courts to determine what it means. What we shall be saying to

815
the courts in effect will be, "Parliament says, 'Here is a statute but it is up to you to determine what it means since we decline to say what it means'." Since this is such an important part of the Bill the argument does indeed become completely circular and we find that the courts are to determine what is to be protected and will give proper protection.
I recognise that the definition of what is original is extremely difficult. I recognise that the courts have had a lot of problems with this particular expression. I also recognise that in Clause 192 of the Bill there is some attempt to define what is not original—that is to say, what is commonplace in the question of designs.
I ask the noble Lord and indeed the Committee whether it would not be sensible and right for the Government to propose and the Committee to consider a definition of what constitutes "original" so the courts can be given clear guidance on this matter. I beg to move.
Lord Denning: I oppose this amendment. The word "original" was in the 1911 Act and also the 1956 Act and it is fairly simple to understand. "Original" means that the author has written it himself and not copied it from someone else.
I have written a number of judgments and books and so forth. People may take part of my writings and put it forward as their own so that the reader thinks that it is the other person's writing. The copier is not original; he has copied my work. He would have no right to claim copyright for his copy. I believe that in the University of London case it was a question of somebody taking some questions out of one examination paper and putting them into his own without any alteration or acknowledgement. The idea of being original and not a copy is a simple one and I am sure that the court can work it out perfectly well when a case comes before it. I should leave in the word "original".
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am sorry to reply immediately to the noble and learned Lord, whose objections I understand. Would he regard Brahms's Variations on a Theme by Paganini as being original to Brahms or original to Paganini?
3.15 p.m.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: While the noble and learned Lord is thinking of the answer to that question, may I in some way dilute the apparently nice things I have been saying about the Front Bench team of the Government? I deplore the lateness with which we have received the amendments of the Government. They put in a large number of amendments and a new schedule. They rewrote Schedule 1 to Part 1. In addition, the Marshalled List was not available.
I am sorry to keep on complaining, but this has upset a number of industries and their advisers, many of whom have come to me to ask for advice. Although the noble Lord, Lord Denham, is not in his place, I hope that we may be compensated for the trouble we have been caused over this weekend by
816
rising early this evening and not being pressed to go right through until the morning, as I understand there is a threat to do. I hope the Minister can get that message to the Chief Whip. It would be some compensation to us who have been working so hard on this Bill.
I am in a similar dilemma to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, on the matter of this amendment. A colleague of mine at the Patent Bar wrote to the Financial Times a few days ago saying that this was a "Humpty Dumpty Bill' because what the Government are trying to do is to recite the law as it was in the 1911 and 1956 Copyright Acts, with a few variations. One of the most curious clauses that any Bill could possibly contain can be found at Clause 156. It states:
"This Part restates and amends the law of copyright, that is, the provisions of the Copyright Act 1956, as amended."
I suppose that saying that they are restating it and amending it is not too bad, but the clause continues:
"A provision of this Part which corresponds to a provision of the previous law shall not be construed as departing from the previous law merely because of a change of expression."
That is most curious. The previous law is to apply although we have changed the words in the Act. That sounds very curious from a lawyer's point of view. The clause then continues:
"Decisions under the previous law may be referred to for the purpose of establishing whether such a provision of this Part departs from the previous law, or otherwise for establishing the true construction of this Part."
It really is a Humpty Dumpty kind of Bill, in that it takes certain parts of the 1956 Bill and sits them on the wall, as it were, but there is no reference at all to any fall arising. Perhaps therefore my learned friend at the Patent Bar may be wrong in referring to a Humpty Dumpty Bill.
As the noble and learned Lord has said, the word "original" appeared in the 1911 and 1956 Acts. There is a lot of law about that and, with very great regret, I am inclined not to follow the noble Lord, Lord Williams, in approving this amendment but to say, "This part restates the law. Why not leave the law as it is at the moment, having regard to the history of the courts in dealing with this word?".
Lord Kilbracken: I should like briefly to support my noble friends in this amendment, largely because in the course of the Bill we realise that copyright does not subsist if a work is a copy. Therefore the word "original" here is certainly unnecessary and possibly otiose. I do not see why it should be thought necessary to include the word "original" in paragraph (a) but not at the beginning of paragraphs (b) and (c). It appears to me that if it stays in then it should be included in those other paragraphs.
Lord Howie of Troon: At this early stage I should declare a multiplicity of interests. First, I am involved in the publication of magazines in the engineering world and, therefore, may be thought to be interested in copyright. I am also an engineer and when we discuss architecture I shall be interested in that. I am also involved in higher education as Pro-Chancellor of the City University and therefore will be involved in the clauses involving education. I hope to be brief

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on all occasions and I also hope that this declaration of multiple interests will satisfy the Committee so that I need not repeat it every time I rise to my feet.
First, I do not believe that my noble friends Lord Williams and Lord Morton should apologise for their strategy of putting down probing amendments and discussing them and also discussing at some length the Question, that the clause stand part. That is exactly how Parliament and this Committee should proceed on a Bill of this nature. There is no need to apologise at all and I sincerely hope that they will stick to that strategy, no matter how long it takes. However, I am entirely in favour of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, who suggested that we should not sit unduly late on the first night of our proceedings due to the manner in which the Government have delayed them—to my mind unduly and unfairly. With those general remarks, I propose to be very brief on the amendment.
I am not sure whether or not I agree with the amendment but I am interested in it in the sense that if we discuss the nature of a magazine article—and that is what I am professionally and principally interested in—it is very difficult to define who is the actual author.
Let me illustrate the problem by referring to an article which I wrote myself a fortnight or so ago and which was published, I am happy to say, by one of my editors with only minor changes. I was, in a sense, the original author in that I wrote down the article. However, I wrote it at his behest so that, though I was perhaps the author, he might be considered the originator. Not only that, but when considering the article a problem arose involving lawyers who felt that I might have made statements which could be thought unseemly by the persons referred to in the piece. That meant that what I had written was changed by the lawyers. Were they, in a sense, also original authors of the piece? The discussion with the lawyers was a triangular one, also involving myself and the editor. Does that make the editor a part author or part originator? I felt that the article was still mine but other hands had played a part in it.
Of course, that is not the end of it. Once the editor, the lawyers and myself had chewed this over and arranged the piece of work into a form which we thought suitable for consumption by the public as a whole—or, at least, that small part of the public which consists of our readers—we then had to pass it on to the sub-editors who proceeded to change a comma here and there; unfortunately, they tend to take commas out instead of putting them in, which is something to which I object. However the sub-editors had a hand in it. Moreover, the man who writes the headline had a hand in it—a very dangerous hand as a rule, let it be said. It was not my hand, and it was not that of the editor or the lawyers, though I dare say the lawyers cast their shadow over it in some way. Therefore, that was another author.
Furthermore, the article was emblazoned with a photograph of the principal person about whom I was writing. The photograph was no doubt produced by a photographer and dealt with by a sub-editor, the editor and looked at by a lawyer. It was looked at by
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just about everybody in the firm except me. I saw it at the same time as our readers saw it. Therefore, if you are dealing with Gulliver's Travels or a book of that nature, you might conceivably be able to identify the author—though I know Jonathan Swift does not come within the ambit of this Bill—but when it comes to the kind of writing with which I and other hacks in the Chamber are concerned, it is very difficult indeed to identify the original author; though I dare say if it came to a matter of libel he would be identified fairly swiftly. However, that is a matter of internal business within the company and not really a matter for the Bill as a whole.
I strongly support my noble friends Lord Williams and Lord Morton in probing the Bill because, as I have tried to show right at the outset, this Bill is by no means a simple one as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, appears to think. It is very complicated and difficult. My last comment is this. Were I writing another article, nothing on earth would persuade me to plagiarize the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, because I am sure that that would be a very dangerous path to pursue.
Lord Somers: Perhaps I may just clear up one or two points. In terms of the creative market, even though someone has been asked or even commissioned to do work for which he receives money, that does not mean that he ceases to be the author or the composer. I have myself been asked to write a work on some occasions but I did not lose my ownership of the copyright. One may take the painting of a portrait as an example. Does the artist lose his copyright because the subject of the portrait owns part of it? Of course not.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: The noble Lord, Lord Williams, asked a question of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and as I share an interest in music, I shall answer it for the noble and learned Lord. The Brahms variation of a theme by Paganini is a long and extremely complex work composed entirely by Brahms with the exception of about eight bars at the beginning which constituted the theme by Paganini. I do not believe that any judge would have a moment's hesitation in deciding it to be an extraordinarily original work.
Lord Lloyd of Hampstead: I should perhaps declare an interest, if only a minor one, as a part-time author, but perhaps I may say a few words on the question of originality to bring the issue down to earth. The concept of originality and copyright, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, pointed out, goes back to 1911. It was not defined then and never has been defined. The only question that really concerned the court and created any real difficulty was whether this idea of originality involved some notion of real creativity. Does it have to be something like a poem by Keats or a play by Bernard Shaw to qualify for copyright? The court had little difficulty in accepting the notion that it was not that kind of originality which was being stipulated. Therefore, there has been a whole series of decisions which have held that even things like railway timetables—not great specimens of literary creativity—qualify as original works and are entitled in appropriate circumstances to claim copyright.

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The concept of originality is, of course, not in itself an easy one. There can be all kinds of marginal cases but one cannot help but ask the question: will it really help for Parliament to strive to produce a very complex definition which is likely to create more problems than already exist? I think this is one of those cases where it is better to trust our courts to reach common sense decisions on these matters. The courts have been operating on this concept for 76 years or so without any severe criticism having been levelled. So far as I can remember, the Whitford Committee that went into these matters and the copyright Act in very great detail did not suggest that any great help would be afforded by giving a definition. Therefore I certainly support the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, that it is far better to leave this matter alone, as it has been adequately resolved, and it does not appear likely to give rise to any grave problems in the future.
3.30 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken, and to those who have broadly welcomed the Bill. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, I welcome him telling the Committee how he intends to treat the Bill during the Committee stage. The Government, for their part, will listen very carefully to what all noble Lords have to say. I hope that we shall be able to deliver the Bill in due course in the very best possible form as a result of that.
It is a long and complicated Bill. No doubt we are going to have to battle on. I cannot say what hour we are going to be able to adjourn on any particular day. That of course would be a matter for the usual channels, but I do hope that we will be able to meet our target without too much difficulty. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, that in mentioning the criticism he levelled at the Government as to the lateness of some of the government amendments being tabled, that in fact the Marshalled List was available on Friday, and that is perhaps earlier than some other Bills that we have had before us.
Lord Howie of Troon: I spoke to the committee office on Friday. They told me that the Marshalled List would not be ready on Friday, otherwise I would have picked it up. I may have been wrongly informed, but it leaves a certain amount of doubt in my mind.
Lord Beaverbrook: Of course it would have been desirable for it to have been available earlier. The new schedule that the Government have tabled, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, and all government amendments to this part of the Bill to be discussed this week were also in print by Friday. However, again I would say, with all these things: the earlier, the better.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I had the privilege of hosting a party in the Cholmondeley Room on Friday, and the Printed Paper Office very kindly set aside for me one of the Marshalled Lists; but I found in the Printed Paper Office piles of the Marshalled Lists, unpacked. So to say they were available to
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everybody seems to be a very strange connotation of words.
Lord Beaverbrook: Everyone concerned in dealing with this Bill, particularly in my department, has worked very long hours and very hard indeed in order to get things out as quickly as possible. If inconvenience has been caused because the amendments were not ready in time then I can only apologise today.
Turning to the amendment put down by the noble Lords, Lord Williams and Lord Morton, I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, that I do not accept that this is, as he described it, a "Humpty Dumpty" Bill. It is an ambitious attempt to reword and simplify the existing law. In doing that we had no wish to deprive the courts of helpful guidance from case law deriving from earlier copyright Acts. That is why Clause 156 was included. It is intended to be helpful rather than confusing. But perhaps we can debate that at the appropriate time.
Turning to the amendment itself, the noble Lord, Lord Williams, suggests that I throw away my brief on this subject; but I think other noble Lords have mentioned the substance of this amendment, so I ought to dwell just for a minute on the detail of it. In order to attract copyright protection, a literary, dramatic, musical, or artistic work must be original, and the requirement in Clause 1 of the Bill is not new. It is to be found as a basic requirement in both the 1956 Act and the 1911 Act which preceded it. Indeed, it is a requirement that forms one of the foundations of copyright law. It is clear that copyright protection should not be given to works that are themselves copies, but that would be the consequences of accepting the amendment as it stands.
As I have already said, "original" is not defined in this Bill or in earlier legislation; but there is a substantial body of case law to assist in its interpretation. Original does not mean novel or unique, but that the author created the work independently, and that the creation involved a sufficient degree of skill, knowledge, creative labour, taste or judgment to merit protection.
The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, wondered why original is not also applied to the works listed in paragraphs (b) and (c). The reason is perhaps partly tradition, but we have ensured that only originals and not copies are protected by provisions of the relevant clauses. Clause 5 is an example, and there are analogues in Clauses 6, 7, 8 and 14.
The noble Lord, Lord Howie, raised the difficulty of identifying who is the author of a work. This is a quite separate question from that of what is original. I would rather not deal with it here. There will be another opportunity if the noble Lord wishes to return to that point at that time. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, has indeed said that this was a probing amendment. I hope that I have been able to answer some of the points that have been made. In the meantime, I wish to resist this amendment.
Lord Howie of Troon: I quite understand there will be a further opportunity to discuss the problem which I raised, and I interpret originality exactly the

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same way as does the noble Lord. I do not have any dispute with him on that. No doubt we shall return to this. I should like to hear from him some preliminary response to the preliminary remark which I have made.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Can the noble Lord very kindly turn his attention to the point that I made about Clause 192, where the concept of originality and commonplace does seem to be somewhat defined?
Lord Beaverbrook: I shall have to look carefully at the Official Report before responding to the noble Lord, Lord Howie, and also to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, as I have basically said what I have to say on this point. I shall respond to them in writing.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his response, and indeed to other noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate on the first amendment. I very much hope that the Committee will not divide itself into lawyers versus the rest, because I see a danger in this. Speaking as it were, as the original man on the Clapham omnibus, I feel it is part of our duty as the Opposition to make sure that those who will try and operate this Bill when it becomes an Act (as opposed to those who actually appear in the courts or who make judgments in court) understand what is meant by Parliament, and can operate without having to engage the services of learned counsel. If I may say so with the greatest respect, no noble Lords engage the services of learned counsel every time they wish to write a book, a play, an article or anything else.
I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, that the courts would certainly decide in the way he has described. I wonder, if both Paganini and Brahms were alive, or if their copyrights still persisted, whether Paganini would take such a sanguine view as the noble Lord. But again this is the point that I am trying to make, that both Brahms and Paganini, if they were alive today, have to understand what the Bill is about. It would be wrong to engage in legal discussion about what the courts might or might not do if the ordinary person—the ordinary author, the ordinary painter, the ordinary musician and the ordinary composer—does not understand it.
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response, I believe that this is a matter which still hangs in the air. I accept what a number of noble Lords have said. It is not right that Parliament should lay down a definition of the word "original" largely because the Bill, when it is enacted, as we hope it will be, will have to last for 20 or 30 years. The concept of originality may change during that period. The courts may decide that the concept has changed, and so in many ways I am sympathetic to the Government's view that this matter should be left open.
However, I wish to reiterate what my noble friends Lord Howie of Troon and Lord Kilbracken said. It is a point which is of some interest to practitioners as opposed to the lawyers involved in this section of the law. Having said that, and thanking all noble Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Broxbourne: May I ask the noble Lord one question before he withdraws the amendment? He prays in aid for his amendment and the definition of "original", Clause 192 which deals with design right. The definition is contained in subsection (4). Does he agree that that is merely a negative definition to show what is not original? It is not a positive definition and therefore not analogous with the amendment he seeks to make.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble Lord. He is right. I think that I said that the word "commonplace" was brought in as a negative—what is not original. I hope that I made that point clear in my second intervention. Nevertheless, once the Government embark on even a negative definition of what is and what is not original, they start on a path that they might regret in the future. One might walk further down that path. That is the point that I was trying to make.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before we leave Clause 1, there is a theoretical point to be made about the distinction that has previously been made between copyright works and what I would call other subject-matter; that is, neighbouring rights. I notice from the Notes on Clauses that those who enjoy neighbouring rights have, in some way, felt themselves to be second-class citizens. They are the rights described in Part II.
It is easy to make the elision of neighbouring rights and copyright—in its proper sense "copyright works". The Government have gone some way towards doing that. As the Notes on Clauses explains, that is because they wish to get away from the feeling that there are superior rights and inferior rights. Nevertheless, it might well be' clearer—I should be grateful to hear the noble Lord's views on this—if that distinction were not blurred. Should we not follow European laws which strive to keep authors' rights and neighbouring rights apart? I am not sure that this is a matter upon which the United Kingdom should wilfully fall out of line with other European countries.
If the Government were sympathetic, the type of amendment that would be appropriate to Clause I would be to Clause 1(1) which states:
"Coyright is a property right … in the following description of work,"
"and other subject-matter" could be added. That might be an appropriate way to draw attention to neighbouring rights. It is not something that I wish to press, and it has not been put in the form of an amendment. I should be pleased to have a clear idea of the Government's thinking behind this point.
3.45 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: I hope that I can help the noble Lord on this point. As lie will be aware, the United Kingdom is a signatory to the Rome Convention for the protection of performers, producers of phonograms and broadcasting organisations, so we

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also have obligations in respect of performers, record producers and broadcasters. Their rights are often called neighbouring rights to distinguish them from the rights granted under the Berne Convention.
Owners of neighbouring rights believe that they are sometimes regarded as second-class citizens compared with those authors who benefit under the Berne Convention. The removal of the distinction between Parts I and II of the 1956 Act, and the treatment of sound recordings, broadcasts and cable programmes, as works, will be rightly perceived as enhancing the status of those rights. Similarly, the provisions of Part II of the Bill in respect of performers recognise their importance.
Lord Howie of Troon: Before we pass from Clause 1, could we think about Clause 1(1)(c) which deals with the typographical arrangement of published editions? It takes us back to the comment I made not long ago on my noble friend's amendment. When we deal with the page of a magazine which contains a substantial body of original work by various hands, to what extent is the copyright invested in the author of the words, as it were, the photogapher or artist who produced the pictures? To what extent is it in the hands of the art editor or lay-out man who lays out the page in its visual form? And to what extent is the copyright in the hands of the typesetter who seems to be of some significance in the typographical arrangement of published editions? I dare say that we shall have ample opportunity to discuss those matters later, but I should be grateful if the Minister would reflect upon them for a moment.
Lord Beaverbrook: The noble Lord, Lord Howie, is correct. The third category of work recognised in the Bill is the typographical arrangement of published editions. The right of the publisher to protect his investment in the lay-out of the printed page is one that is seldom recognised in foreign laws but is one that we believe to be vital. The current provisions are therefore re-enacted in this Bill. As the noble Lord said, we shall have an opportunity to debate this matter in some detail at the appropriate time.
Lord Howie of Troon: I put on the table a question which can be answered now or later. Is it the intention of this provision to protect the publisher or the typesetter?
Lord Beaverbrook: There will no doubt be considerable discussion on that point at the appropriate time. A number of views will be expressed by the Committee. Perhaps we could come to the point then. I note what the noble Lord has said.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: Before we pass to the next clause I shall make just one point. A number of organisations have not appreciated the speed at which this place moves. They have put forward proposals which have in some cases arrived too late to be fully considered. The result is that not all the suggested amendments to Clause 1 are on the Marshalled List. I have, for example, one from the Library Association which presumably knows something about copyright. It makes a point similar to that made by the noble Lord, Lord Howie. It has
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suggested that the words "or combinations thereof should be added to cover a song which has a lyric writer, a composer and so on. There are one or two such points. I hope that it will be possible to return to these questions at a later stage, as the Minister has suggested.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before the Minister finally replies to this debate, may I ask again whether he approves of the Government's gradual elision of neighbouring rights and authors' rights, which is in conflict to a certain extent with our partners' laws in the European Community? They seem to be going a different way. Do the Government deliberately wish to go in this direction, or have they gone this way for some other reason which I do not understand?
Lord Beaverbrook: In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, the subject he mentions will probably be debated at some length at the appropriate time when specific matters such as music scores of films come up. On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, I shall look at what he said. I shall respond in writing to him on this point.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am sorry to interrupt. The Minister has been good enough to say that he will write to a number of noble Lords on a number of points. Will he include me on his postal list? Many of the points have been raised with me by many people. I have not raised them so far in order to save time.
Lord Beaverbrook: I shall include the noble Lord on my mailing list and I shall place copies in the Library so that all noble Lords will have access to the correspondence.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Rights subsisting in copyright works]:
The Earl of Stockton The Earl of Stockton moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 2, line 5, after ("do") insert ("or authorise another to do").
The noble Earl said: I beg leave to move the amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak also to Amendment No. 65.
It is of great interest to me to know why the Government have chosen to go in completely the opposite direction from the 1956 Act by not including the words "or authorise another to do". I must here declare an interest as a publisher of magazines and books and also as the chairman of a film development company, to say nothing of being a one-time hack—that was the word used on the other side. It is very important for the publisher or the editor to be able to authorise another person to do work, and similarly for the creator of the article or written work to authorise the publisher to do certain things with it.
This amendment was also in the consultation document that was published during the summer. We are rather mystified as to why it should have been left out. I should be most grateful if my noble friend would give his assurance that it could be reinserted. Perhaps I may also say that I should like to be included on the mailing list.
Lord Denning: I sympathise with this proposed amendment. If one looks back to the 1956 Act, Section 1(1) included the words "authorise to do". If they are omitted in this Bill we should have the lawyers saying at once that it was a deliberate omission and therefore there is a variation from the whole. That view is supported by Section 156, which says that in the ordinary way one follows the previous wording as interpreted by the courts and one does not alter it because if there is an alteration one may suspect some alteration of meaning. Therefore, in order to make it conform with the 1956 Act, I support this amendment in order to make the position clear.
Lord Broxbourne: Perhaps I may be forgiven a very brief Proustian evocation, having dipped my madeleine appropriately into the tea. Casting my mind back to the proceedings on the 1956 Bill, as it then was, I do not remember any clamour to have these words omitted in our lengthy proceedings at that stage. Nor do I remember any suggestion that they should be omitted. I may well be wrong on that as on so many matters, but that is my recollection. No doubt the Minister's advisers have carefully ransacked the files of the proceedings in that Committee and can tell us whether there was a suggestion that the words should be omitted which are now omitted from this clause, and, if so, what grounds were adduced in support thereof.
Lord Morton of Shuna: We also support this amendment. The words of the amendment do not precisely copy the Copyright Act 1956. No doubt the noble Earl will explain why he has changed "authorise other persons to do" to "authorise another to do". We support the amendment.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I had also noticed that difference between the amendment of the noble Earl and the 1956 Act. Nevertheless, I think it is a good amendment to include.
Lord Howie of Troon: I hope that when the Minister is compiling his mailing list he will include me only for those parts which refer directly to me. I do not wish to overburden the Minister. I fear that he will have quite enough problems on this Bill without writing to me on matters which are none of my business. I hope that he will bear that in mind.
However, he should consider this amendment very carefully. Whether the words are the right words or not, if he cannot accept the words as they stand—and some doubt has been cast upon that—let him accept the meaning and understanding which lie behind the amendment which has been put down by the noble Earl, Lord Stockton. It has significance later in the Bill and it also bears a little on the last exchange the Minister and I had concerning the publisher.
The amendment refers in part to a debate which we shall have later on the relationship between the employer and the employee. In that respect it is extremely important that in those areas where the copyright lies with the employer and not with the employee—I notice my noble friend Lord Willis giving me what might be called a sidelong glance at this moment as he has a great interest in this matter—it is proper that he should have the right to
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require certain things to be done. I hope that I have not offended the noble Lord, Lord Willis, by that remark, which I couched in as cautious terms as I could standing on my feet.
Lord Willis: The noble Lord has offended me deeply!
Lord Beaverbrook: I have to say that we believe these amendments to be unnecessary. The copyright owner has the exclusive right to do certain acts by Clauses 2(1) and 16(1). Clause 16(2) then provides that copyright is infringed by any person who does any of those acts without the licence of the copyright owner or authorises another person to do them. Thus the result desired by the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, is already provided in the Bill.
The amendment seeks to restore wording at present found in the 1956 Act. It was discovered, however, in drafting the Bill in what we hope is simpler language that the 1956 wording was a positive hindrance to simplicity. The exclusive right of the copyright owner is to do the things listed in Clause 16(1). Authorising someone else to do them is merely a means of enjoying or exploiting that right. The important thing is that if anyone other than the copyright owner purports to authorise someone else to do any of those things there is a breach of copyright, and that, as I have said, is already in Clause 16(2). Certain clauses, including in particular Clause 21, on adaptations, would be more complex and probably less clear if the amendment were accepted and all necessary consequential amendments made.
Therefore, I believe that we are heading on the right course in not accepting this amendment. We wish to try to improve the language.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Does the Minister agree that if the words are in the 1956 Act and if they add to the clarity of the Bill, they should be put back into the Bill?
Lord Beaverbrook: That is not necessarily true, but on the other hand I am sensitive to the views of the Committee. If my noble friend would like to withdraw the amendment at this stage, I shall without commitment look at what all Members of the Committee have said on the amendment.
Lord Wilberforce: I hope that the noble Lord will not look at this too hard because I found his answer entirely convincing. Just because these words were in the previous Act is no reason for keeping them here if they are surplusage. I should have suggested that if they are clearly surplus in Clause 2, it is a nonsense that the owner of the copyright has the exclusive right to authorise the acts. Who else has the right to authorise them? What is the point of saying that somebody else can authorise them? Who else can authorise the doing of those acts except the owner of the copyright? I found the Minister's explanation entirely convincing. The matter is dealt with in Clause 16 in a totally satisfactory way. If anything is to be added, what one needs to say is that if someone is authorised positively by the owner of a copyright

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that is all right. Clause 16(2) is a negative which says that if it is done without authority that is wrong, but if anything needs to be added we should say the converse. However I do not think that is necessary. I support the Minister in what he has said. I hope that he will not look at it too hard but will stick to the text of the Bill.
Lord Denning: I had not examined Clause 16 before and I am brought round to the Minister's point of view.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: I also agree with my noble and learned friend Lord Wilberforce and my noble and learned friend Lord Denning in his second view. One of the very first maxims in law that my father taught me, using his old-fashioned schoolboy pronounciation of Latin, was qui facit per alium facit per se.
The Earl of Stockton: I am grateful to my noble friend for his assurances and I bow to the weight of noble and learned opinion. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before we leave Clause 2, I should like to ask the Minister a quick question. As I understand it—and he will correct me if I am wrong—the only time that the expression "moral rights" occurs in the Bill is in Clause 2(2). The phrase "moral rights" forms the heading of a chapter in the Bill, but is not part of the Bill itself. Am I right about that and can the Minister give us some feel for how the expression "moral rights", which I understand is a Roman law convention, sits with English law—or perhaps I should say United Kingdom law in deference to my noble friend?
Lord Beaverbrook: If I said a few words about Clause 2 at this time it might be helpful to the Committee. Clause 2 acts as a signpost to later provisions in Part I which set out the rights attaching to copyright works. The copyright owner has the exclusive right to do certain acts which are specified in Chapter II. It is by exercise of those rights that a copyright owner can get an economic benefit from the exploitation of his works and we shall be discussing those when we reach Clause 16. The author of certain descriptions of copyright work has the moral rights as set out in Chapter IV. These include the right to be identified as author and not to have his work subjected to unjustified modification. Provisions for these moral rights under the Copyright Act 1956 and the common law of contract, passing off and defamation are not sufficient to meet the requirements of the latest Paris text of the Berne Copyright Convention, which we intend to ratify. Chapter IV introduces statutory moral rights in a manner which complies with the Berne requirements and discussion of the details is best left until then.
Perhaps I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, that I understand that this is not the only place where "moral rights" are mentioned in the Bill,
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but I am not absolutely sure of that. If I am wrong, I shall of course come back to him.
Clause 2 agreed to.
4 p.m.
Clause 3: [Literary, dramatic and musical works]:
The Earl of Stockton The Earl of Stockton moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 2, line 12, leave out ("written") and insert ("created").
The noble Earl said: This is by nature a probing amendment. I should like some assurances from my noble friend the Minister that he is including the whole area of children's book publication under the expression "written". There is quite often an arrangement of words in a particular form or shape which can better be covered by the loose term "created". I am sure the Committee is entirely familiar with the mouse in Alice in Wonderland in which the arrangement of words is such that the letters become smaller and smaller as the tail grows shorter. It was in the light of this that I hope he will be able to assure us that the word "written" includes such implications.
Lord Beaverbrook: The purpose of my noble friend's amendment was not entirely clear to us. No work, literary or otherwise, can exist until it is created. That is surely self-evident. If my noble friend Lord Stockton wishes to ensure that works can be regarded as such before they are written down and recorded, such as an impromptu speech, I can assure him that this is the case. However, I should point out that copyright will subsist only in such a work when it is recorded in some way as provided for in Clause 3(2).
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am not sure that the noble Lord has answered the noble Earl's point. If the noble Earl is satisfied perhaps he will say so. The question of Alice in Wonderland is rather interesting.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Thereby hangs a tale!
Lord Beaverbrook: I am sure that we can find all sorts of literary connotations. My noble friend asked me whether when something is written down that is an act of recording it. I have said that copyright will subsist in such a work only when it is recorded in some way, which of course includes writing it down.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: Perhaps the noble Lord opposite is not aware that the grandfather of my noble friend Lord Stockton used Alice in Wonderland for many of his quotations when making a point. It is good so see that the tradition is still alive.
The Earl of Stockton: I thank the Minister for his assurances and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 2, line 12, after ("sung") insert ("or intended to be sung").
The noble Lord said: This amendment again is a probing amendment to make sure that I fully understand what is the meaning of the expression

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"sung" in Clause 3(1). Does it include works intended to be sung or does it only include work which is actually sung? The amendment brings Clause 3(1) into line with the later definition of "musical work" which uses the expression "intended to be sung". If my amendment is superfluous perhaps the noble Lord will be kind enough to tell me.
Lord Kilbracken: Perhaps it also means "spoken" or "intended to be spoken".
Lord Howie of Troon: This is a convenient moment to raise a worry of mine which relates to Clause 3 as a whole, which hinges upon the words "intended to be sung'. I am seeking enlightenment; I am not attempting to attack the Bill. I am wondering where in Clause 3 the libretto of an opera comes in. It is sometimes sung and it is usually intended to be sung, but the subsection relating to literary work includes the words:
"which is not a dramatic or musical work"
which would cause difficulties with the libretti of certain operas. The reference to "a computer program" would exclude many of them, although not some of the more recent ones. "Dramatic work" includes, so far as I can see, only dance or mime but might be expected to include opera and the libretti of opera. "Musical work" consists of,
"music, exclusive of any words or action intended to be sung, spoken or performed with the music".
I may be shortsighted in this respect but it seems to me that the libretto of an opera is excluded from Part III, and with the exception of certain of the longer works of Wagner that is a pity.
Lord Beaverbrook: The concern of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, appears to be one of ensuring that the lyrics of a song are protected in the same way as other literary works. I believe that the clause as drafted achieves that result without the amendment. If, as is probably the case, the words of a song are written down before it is sung there is no difficulty. Under those circumstances it is a written literary work. Difficulties may arise, however, when a work is not written down before delivery: for example, a speech or an impromptu song. We have covered these by the addition of the words "spoken or sung", although Members of the Committee will note that under subsection (2) copyright does not subsist in such works until they are recorded in some way, either by being written down or perhaps more commonly today by use of a tape recorder.
The lyrics of a song—that is, words that are intended to be sung—are fully covered. Either they are written down first, in which case they are literary works, or they are sung in an impromptu performance, in which case they are still literary works but not protected unless and until recorded in some way. Words intended to be sung which are still in the composer's mind cannot be covered any more than the ideas in the minds of other authors and artists. Copyright is about protection of the expression of ideas, and once a song is expressed and fixed in some way it is protected. It is not, however, about the protection of mere ideas which have received no expression.
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I turn now to the questions put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Howie. Dramatic works are principally intended for performance and so are separated from literary works which are generally read. The term includes works of dance or mime. "Musical work" means a work,
"consisting of music, exclusive of any words or action intended to be sung, spoken or performed with the music".
Thus such accompanying words and action will need to qualify for protection as literary or dramatic works in their own right. However, musical annotations or directions on a score are part of the musical work.
There appears to be a misunderstanding about the definitions of "dramatic work" and "musical work". "Dramatic work" includes all plays, libretti and so on. "Musical work" is the music, not the accompanying works.
Lord Howie of Troon: I am not sure that the Minister has completely removed my doubts. He has told me that "dramatic work" includes a variety of things but the Bill does not tell me that. The Bill only tells me that "dramatic work" includes a work of dance or mime. It does not seem to include the interpretation that he put upon it though I must say that the Minister's interpretation appears to include a fair amount of sense. I dare say that if he turns his mind to this question between now and Report stage he will be able to satisfy me a little more.
As the clause stands at the moment one cannot get a copyright on an opera libretto until presumably somebody has actually sung it. That does not always happen to these things although such matters might be published in a variety of ways. It might be that I am wholly wrong—
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: You are.
Lord Howie of Troon: Well, maybe, but I should like to be convinced that I am wholly wrong. When I am convinced that I am wholly wrong, I am convincible.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I should like to support the Minister against the noble Lord, Lord Howie. It is perfectly clear that an opera libretto is a document. It is something written. It does not deserve and cannot acquire copyright until it has been written down. There is nothing more to be said about it.
4.15 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, has said and I am sure that he is right. I am grateful to the noble Lord for clarifying the point that "intended to be sung" is almost certainly included here in the word "sung". However, as the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, will be the first to recognise, modern music contains a number of instances where it is not entirely clear whether what is being sung or proposed to be sung is or is not words. Perhaps I may refer to the work of the composer Stockhausen, who wrote a work called Stimmung. It is for six vocalists who do in fact sing but they sing things which sound to certain ears like words and to other ears like simple plain notes. There is a difficulty in sticking to what I

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would regard as a rather traditional definition of words and music. The two can become muddled up in modern music and I think they will increasingly be so.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I have not seen the Stockhausen score and I would not be able to read it if I had. However, I am sure he writes "La" or Lo" or whatever it may be as something that is said.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am sure that he does not write that. The score is extremely complex. He says in his instruction to singers, "Echo more or less the sounds that were made by the person who was speaking in front of you".
Lord Howie of Troon: Perhaps I may enter this interesting discussion. There is a duet for two sopranos in an opera the name of which I have forgotten. It might possibly be by Ravel. The two sopranos echo the sound of two cats. The words are "miaow" "miaow" in a number of variations, if they are indeed words. I am familiar with this musical work, which is extremely enjoyable, only because there is a remarkable record of it sung by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Victoria de los Angeles. I have probably infringed somebody's copyright by mentioning it. They are not singing words at all. They are not words in the sense that I understand them although they might possibly be words in the sense that lawyers understand them.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: There cannot be a copyright as regards the word "miaow". I do not know what we are talking about.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: The matter is very plain indeed. The arrangement of "miaow" in the particular musical work to which the noble Lord referred is an original work of art. I have heard it myself and I can assure him that any sensible court would come to that conclusion.
Lord Williams of Elvel: This discussion has reached its end for the moment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 2, line 13, leave out ("which") and insert ("but").
The noble Lord said: This is intended to be purely a drafting amendment but when in the past I have put down purely drafting amendments, they have turned out to have more significance than I intended.
The amendment seeks to leave out the second "which" in the definition of "literary work" and to substitute the word "but". Perhaps I may first say that the relative pronoun "which" appears all the way through the Bill and in practically every case it would be correct to use the relative pronoun "that". I do not intend to go into a long dissertation about when "which" should be used and when "that" should be used because very few people outside or inside the Chamber know the answer to the question. It is responsible for more mistakes of grammar than perhaps anything else in the English language. If
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Members of the Committee want to look it up they will find that it occupies no fewer than four pages of Fowler's Modern English Usage. They are pages 625 to 628 of the edition in the Library. I am prepared to tolerate the misuse of "which" all the way through the Bill but when the word appears twice—in close proximity and without any conjunction or punctuation of any sort—it is something that I do not like to put up with. The passage reads:
"'literary work' means any work which is written, spoken or sung which is not a dramatic or musical work".
As an old sub-editor I cannot let that pass from my desk without using a blue pencil. I therefore propose that the second "which" should be replaced with the conjunction "but" to read:
"any work which is written, spoken or sung but is not a dramatic or musical work".
I beg to move.
Lord Denning: I support the amendment as a matter of literary style. Instead of having "which" twice, let us have "but" in the second place.
Lord Beaverbrook: I can probably be helpful to the Committee. The noble Lord's amendment is purely a matter of drafting, as he said. I can sympathise with the view that the use of "which" twice in rapid succession is a little clumsy. However, I am not convinced that "but" is the right word. If the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment we shall look at the drafting. Should a change be desirable, we shall see what we can come up with.
Lord Kilbracken: I am grateful to the Minister. Of course. I shall withdraw the amendment. However, can the noble Lord give me an inkling of what the word should be if not "but"? Is it likely to be "and"?
Lord Beaverbrook: No; we shall look at it.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, would the noble Lord like to remove the word "accordingly" which seems to us superfluous?
Lord Beaverbrook: I am not sure. We shall look at that as well.
Lord Kilbracken: As my noble friend has made the point, perhaps I may add that I, too, feel "accordingly" is unnecessary here. It is much better that the word should be omitted. Perhaps the Minister will look at that point. In the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): If Amendment No. 6 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 7.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 2, line 13, leave out from ("work,") to end of line 16 and insert ("including a computer program,").
The noble Lord said: The Committee will see that the definition of literary work begins:
"'literary work' means any work which is written".

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Any work that is written quite clearly includes "a written table or compilation". There is therefore no need to include in the Bill the words "a written table or compilation". Under this amendment the word "accordingly" would be deleted. I consider it to be unnecessary. My proposal therefore is that the definition should conclude,
"is not a dramatic or musical work, including a computer program".
I beg to move.
Lord Somers: As the noble Lord has spoken about the purity of English, I suggest that we keep the entire Bill in English. He will see that the word "program" is in the American form. I suggest that we add the "me" at the end.
Lord Howie of Troon: The difficulty with my noble friend's amendment is that if we exclude the word "written" we might get into some difficulty were someone in future to compose something similar to the Catalogue Song towards the beginning of Don Giovanni.
Lord Beaverbrook: The effect would simply be to remove the specific reference to tables and compilations being literary works in which copyright can subsist. It would not necessarily result in tables and compilations ceasing to qualify for copyright protection because such works could very well still qualify as literary works in any event. I should point out that the Bill as drafted is exactly the same as the 1956 Act, which expressly includes written tables and compilations in the meaning of "literary work". This must be right.
A very great deal of skill and effort goes into tables and compilations and such works need and deserve copyright protection. Of course, where little skill and effort is involved, the normal rules of whether there is sufficient to qualify as a work and, indeed, whether the work is original, will apply. But that is just the ordinary operation of copyright principles. Since, in our view, there should be no doubt that tables and compilations do qualify for copyright protection, it follows that I cannot accept the amendment.
Lord KilbrackenI turn first to the noble Lord, Lord Somers, and his comment on the spelling in my amendment, as in the Bill, of the word "program". I raised this matter some months ago in your Lordships' House. I said on that occasion that it was wrongly spelt and that it should have "me" at the end. It was pointed out to me that a computer program, in contrast to a theatre programme, is spelt that way. That is the usage that has arisen in this country following its usage in the United States. I accepted that that was the case. I therefore used the spelling that has been handed down and that is found in other Bills.
I accept what the Minister says. I am bound to say however that I do not see the necessity of specifying "a written table or compilation" where the table or compilation clearly involves work of some kind. The person who compiled it or made out the table did work, and it is work that is written. But, in view of what the noble Lord has said, I do not intend to
834
persist with my amendment. I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 2, line 15, leave out ("written").
The noble Lord said: I was in some dilemma about putting down this amendment. The word "written" seemed to me to be unnecessary in defining a literary work in relation to a table or compilation. Subsection (2) of Clause 3 says "in writing or otherwise", and when one looks at the definition in Clause 161 another point of difficulty appears to arise.
However, I understand that a message has been sent to me that the Minister may be sympathetic to my amendment. I hope that is correct; if so it will save time. If that is not the case, I can go on. But in view of the sympathy suggested—the Minister is nodding his head—I shall now sit down. I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: We are happy to accept this amendment since it removes a superfluous word with an unintended limiting effect.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 8 not moved.]
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 2, line 22, leave out ("otherwise") and insert ("in another recognisable form").
The noble Lord said: Again, this is a probing amendment to discover the meaning of the words "or otherwise" in Clause 3(2). I would have hoped that we would either have been able to get a clear response from the Minister on what the Bill as drafted means or else put in something which is fairly clear to the average layman. I beg to move.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I have some difficulty here. I wondered whether the amendment might undermine the copyright, or the rights in copyright, in any work which is created directly on to a magnetic or other medium. That was the only point I had in opposing this amendment.
4.30 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: Subsection (2) sets out the requirement that, for copyright to subsist in a literary, dramatic or musical work, it must be recorded in some way. Usually this will be in writing, such as the script of a play or the manuscript of a novel. But increasingly other ways are used. For example, an author may dictate a work on to tape, a composer may record one of his works without ever writing it down.
We believe that subsistence of copyright should not depend on whether the author chooses to write his work out long hand, use a typewriter or dictate it. Subsection (2) is therefore drafted in the widest terms. The amendment could narrow this considerably. The words of the author on a magnetic tape may not be regarded as in another recognisable form. One tape looks much the same as another and it is only by playing the tape back through a machine that enables recognition of the original. The problem

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of what constitutes recognisable form becomes more acute with computer programs. We believe the subsection is best left as drafted so that any recording of the work will give rise to copyright subsistence.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the Minister, and understand exactly what he says. In the light of what he said, however, I do not see how anyone who is not well versed in these matters can tell whether a work is under copyright protection if it is not recorded or fixed, to use the relevant expression, in some recognisable form. If the author of the work puts it on tape directly and jumbles up the tape so that no one can recognise it, I can understand that, as the clause is drafted, that is recorded and fixed. I do not see how anyone is to know that. I hope that the noble Lord understands the problem.
As it is clear that I am not going to get much further, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 2, line 22, leave out ("but") and insert ("and").
The noble Lord said: This is another drafting amendment. The Oxford dictionary tells us that "but" is a conjunction to introduce words of a contrary tendency as in,
"It was fine today but it will rain tomorrow".
In this subsection we read,
"Copyright does not subsist … unless and until [a work] is recorded … but it is immaterial who makes that record".
That is not contrary intent; it is emphasising and adding to what has appeared before. I believe that the conjunction "and" should be inserted.
Lord Beaverbrook: This is a purely linguistic point. While I cannot say that the noble Lord's amendment is wrong, it does seem to me that the conjunction used here should be making a contrast rather than an addition. The first half of the subsection concerns cases where copyright does not arise and the second half, cases where it does. In these circumstances I think "but" is the right word and I therefore oppose the amendment.
Lord Kilbracken: I am well accustomed to Ministers defending their draftsmen. I do not for a moment expect to be able to budge the Minister in that opinion or indeed to muster overwhelmining support, although I have received one or two encouraging nods and winks from different parts of the Chamber. I suppose that I shall have to withdraw the amendment although I feel more inclined to sit down and say "Content" rather softly. In view of what the noble Lord has said, however, I do not intend to take it any further.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 3, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: I wish to ask the Government about the omission in Clause 3(2) of the full recommendation of the Whitford Committee. Paragraph 590 of the Whitford Report says:
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"Speeches and lectures delivered extempore do not require copyright unless and until fixed. We think it would be right to make clear that as and when such material is fixed, albeit by someone else, a copyright in the material should be created which will vest in the speaker."
I believe that the Bill as drafted accepts that recommendation. The report continues:
"There would also come into existence at the same time a separate copyright in the recording or transcript as such whether or not made with the consent of the speaker, such copyright to vest in the maker of the recorded version. To exploit the recorded version it would therefore be necessary to obtain the consents of the copyright in the speech or lecture and the owner of the copyright in the recorded version thereof".
As I understand it, the Bill as drafted does not accept that second recommendation. I should be grateful if the Minister could tell me the Government's reasons for rejecting it.
Lord Kilbracken: I wish to raise a couple of points. The first was mentioned earlier in the debate. For some strange reason there is no definition of "dramatic work". Both "literary work" and "musical work" are defined. In the case of a dramatic work, we are told merely that it:
"includes a work of dance or mime"
without being told what it is. It may be thought that it is obvious what a dramatic work is. I should have thought it is obvious that a literary work is a work that has been written, but a definition is included in the Bill. There are a number of cases in which it may not be at all clear whether something is a dramatic work. I mention in particular an original screen play for a motion picture. Is that a dramatic work? We are given no guidance.
I find it curious also that the definition of "musical work" states that it does not include any action intended to be performed with the music. I am sure that there cannot be copyright in an action. I do not understand therefore why an action intended to be performed has to be mentioned in the Bill as being part of a musical work.
Lord Denning: When I gave judgments in the courts I gave them orally in open court. The reporter took them down in court and transcribed them. I always understood that the copyright was in the reporter and not in me because he was the person who had recorded the judgment permanently in writing. I hope that at some point in the Bill—and perhaps this does it—the copyright exists in me, the person who composed the words and wrote the speech, and not only in the reporter who took it down.
Lord Howie of Troon: I feel a slight sense of shame that I did not support Amendment No. 10 which was tabled by my noble friend Lord Kilbracken. I think that he was right and that the Minister dismissed him far too perfunctorily. I hope that the Government draftsmen will give this matter further thought. I wish to support what my noble friend said about the definition of "dramatic work". I know—we have heard this in the Chamber many times—that it is bad law to produce lengthy lists. The longer a list becomes the more important are the things that are omitted. I learnt that from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham.

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I think that my noble friend Lord Kilbracken is right. In a sense we know what a dramatic work is; it is a play. This presumably includes the libretto of an opera, a point with which I was concerned earlier. However, is it not also true that a work of dance or a ballet is a dramatic work and that a work of mime is a dramatic work? We know that such things are dramatic works, yet they are not laid down in this Bill. It seems a little odd that the main dramatic work—that is, the play, or whatever—is not defined as well. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, is quite right, and his views about this definition ought to be supported.
Earl Attlee: If the Committee had accepted the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, this Chamber would have been in danger of producing a Bill couched in good English and understandable to everyone.
Lord Beaverbrook: I should like to answer some of the specific points made by the Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, said that there was no definition of "dramatic work" and asked whether an original screenplay was a dramatic work. Yes, it is. I should not have thought that there was any doubt about that. In preparing this Bill it did not seem necessary to have the complication of the definition as in the 1956 Act.
The noble Lord made a point about the definition of "musical work" and asked about the significance of the reference to "action intended to be … performed with the music". Those words are there mainly in order to avoid any doubts in the matter. One response to the draft clauses that were sent out for consultation during the summer concerned the need to distinguish between words to be sung or performed with music which are not to be part of the music—for example, literary or dramatic words and words instructing a musician how to play, such as crescendo, which are not to form part of the music.
I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Williams, that the Government are not convinced that the mere recording of an extempore speech in general should attract a separate copyright from the speech itself. In most cases the process will be purely automatic, involving a skill and effort—for example, when a tape recorder is used. The position of a shorthand writer is perhaps somewhat different. I agree that we should have a further look to see whether there should be a separate copyright in that case.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that assurance. I believe it is right. I understand that a mere amanuensis copyright is not something that the Government would wish to grant, but it may well be that shorthand or other forms of recording are something at which the Government will wish to look. Have I understood the noble Lord correctly? Is that what he meant?
Lord Denning: I think that this matter requires to be looked into again. I always understood that the shorthand writer who took down a speech held the copyright. I think that that position ought to be
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altered and I believe that in a way this Bill does it already; namely, that when a speech is recorded, copyright resides in the person who makes the speech at the time that it is recorded but not in the mere amanuensis who takes it down. I hope that that is the result but I think that it will be made clear in the Bill in any case.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
4.45 p.m.
Clause 4 [Artistic works]:
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 2, line 25, leave out ("irrespective of artistic quality").
The noble Lord said: This amendment stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Morton of Shuna. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak also to Amendment No. 17, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran.
My amendment is a probing amendment. As I understand it, it paves the way for the type of amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran. It is not an instruction to the courts to take a view on the artistic merit of a particular graphic work but is designed to ensure that engineering or other drawings are included in the provision and that the courts cannot preclude those drawings from being considered graphic works if they fail in terms of artistic quality for some reason. I should be grateful if the noble Lord could reassure me on that point. I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, because I think that it is a necessary clarification. I beg to move.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: The noble Lord will tell me if I am wrong, but my recollection is that those words go back at least as far as the 1911 Copyright Act. I am speaking now to Amendment No. 11. It is absolutely necessary to avoid arguments such as "That is not a graphic work; that is a mere scribble" or "That is not a painting; that is a mere daub". As I understand it, that is why the words were originally included and have been maintained for over 70 years.
Lord Denning: I agree that those words are there to make sure that the court does not have to inquire through experts or otherwise about artistic quality. If the work is graphic, or whatever, let it be taken as such, irrespective of its quality. I am against the amendment.
Lord Kilbracken: I cannot see any reason at all for including those words. The Committee has just been told that "literary work" means any work, and does not have to be told further "irrespective of its literary merit". If it were said, as could be said of a second-rate literary work, that it is a mere scribble, that would not stop it from being a literary work because it is so irrespective of literary merit. Similarly, one does not have to be told that a dramatic or musical work is irrespective of merit.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: I think that it would be a pity to alter the draft. Curiously enough, in its judicial capacity the House of Lords has discussed this matter at least twice in the past three

839
years, and engineering drawings have been covered. It has long been established that the artistic quality of such things is not material to the question of whether they are copyright. There has been one case about it called Swish and another called British Leyland Motors that I can remember in the past three years.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: I am against this amendment for the very reason put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon. Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, that we are dealing with artistic works. At the drop of a penny, the cognoscenti will say that a work has to have some aesthetic quality in order to be artistic. At the Tate Gallery there is a fine sculpture by Carl Andre called "The Bricks", and there are those who say that it is not a sculpture because it does not have any aesthetic quality.
I strongly support this amendment. One does not want copyright to be ruled by the cognoscenti. We do not want copyright to be ruled by the Philistines. We want copyright to be ruled by those who have some common sense. I am very much against this amendment.
Lord Beaverbrook: For the convenience of the Committee, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 17. I do not know whether such a course fits in with the plans of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, but I should like to speak to both amendments if that is agreeable to him.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: Whatever is convenient for the noble Lord is convenient for me.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. Amendment No. 11 would remove words which were introduced by the Copyright Act 1956 for the purpose of making plain that a work is to be regarded as artistic if it is the product of one of a number of specified processes such as painting, drawing or photography, irrespective of whether it has artistic merit.
The effect of the amendment therefore would be to reintroduce into law the very doubts that those words were intended to remove; namely, whether an artistic work requires artistry in execution as opposed to ordinary skill and effort on the part of the author. It is very important that there should be no doubts on that score. In this sense, artistry is not a prerequisite for copyright protection. Industry and commerce need and deserve copyright protection for technical drawings, charts, plans, engravings etc, since they are valuable assets resulting from the investment of skill and effort. It is inconceivable that competitors should be allowed to copy them with impunity.
Nor is it inconsistent, as has been suggested, to provide a qualification of this kind in relation to artistic works when there is no equivalent qualification for literary, dramatic and musical works in Clause 3. It is well established that literary merit is not a prerequisite for protection as a literary work. Moreover, the word "literary" does not have the same connotations of merit as the word "artistic". It merely denotes expression in a form that is essentially linguistic.
840
I turn now to Amendment No. 17, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran. The effect of this amendment would be to make it clear that engineering drawings qualify for protection as an artistic work even though they have no artistic pretensions. I agree that it is very important that there should be no such prerequisite for copyright protections. It is inconceivable that competitors should be able to copy technical drawings, blueprints, charts, and so on. However, I am bound to say that if there is anything in copyright law which does not need to be clarified, it must be this.
The protection of non-artistic drawings is guaranteed by the words "irrespective of artistic quality" which were introduced into the Copyright Act 1956 for this very purpose and which are repeated in Clause 4 of the Bill. Indeed, this is the very foundation of the industrial design copyright problem because the protection extends to the making of articles represented in such drawings. We are of course seeking to cure that particular problem in Clause 51 of the Bill; but so far as concerns the protection of technical drawings as such, the position is already guaranteed.
Accordingly, I have to resist the amendments standing in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Williams of Elvel and Lord Morton of Shuna, and the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran.
Lord Howie of Troon: As an engineer who has very often committed engineering drawings to paper, wholly irrespective of artistic merit, I must say that the Bill seems to me to provide quite adequate protection. I think that on this occasion the Minister is right.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble Lord. I hope he accepts that when I move amendments and call them probing amendments, they are just that. They are not meant to be amendments which we intend to press to Divisions. They are amendments designed to elicit from the Government exactly what the expression means. I hope, if I may say so, that he will not castigate me for trying to amend the Bill in a way that the House of Lords Judicial Committee may or may not have approved, but will accept that I am simply trying to find out what he means.
The first page of his brief says, "We must reject this amendment because if we accept this amendment it will wreck the Bill". Perhaps he will cast that aside and tell me exactly what it means. He has satisfied me, and I hope he has satisfied the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, that the Bill as it stands is adequate protection for the things we had in mind. He has also satisfied me on the point that my noble friend Lord Kilbracken raised—that it is not necessary to have a similar expression in terms of literary work because a mere scribble, if I can use that expression, is a literary work. So the definition "artistic quality" does not actually need to be made.
I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beaverbrook: I should perhaps say to the noble Lord that of course I accept that his

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amendments in many cases are probing, but I hope he will accept that I have to put the case. I try to the best of my ability to explain to him why we regard an amendment that he has put down as perhaps not the best course to take. That is done with the intention of keeping the Bill, as we believe it to be, in its very best form.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Listowell): Before I call the next amendment, No. 11A, I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to I cannot call the manuscript amendment, No. 11B.
Lord Howie of Troon Lord Howie of Troon moved Amendment No. 11A:
Page 2, leave out line 27 and insert—
("(b) a work of architectural or engineering construction being a building or other structure or a model of a building or other structure").
The noble Lord said: I intend to move this amendment in the same spirit as the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, is moving his amendment. I wish enlightenment rather than anything else and I do not intend to worry the Committee by moving to a Division or anything of that sort.
However, I am a little worried about an underlying conception which has nothing to do with the law. I do not really want to be told on this occasion that the Copyright Act of whatever year it was—1911—said something, and here we are now. I am interested in the concept which suggests that an architectural work being a building is an artistic work whereas certain other forms of construction are not. Further, I am wondering a little about who holds the copyright and of what does the copyright he holds consist. I can readily see that an architect or engineer or other designer can hold the copyright in drawings or models which he makes. That is sensible enough and straightforward.
Does the Bill suggest that the architect here would hold copyright in the building? That would be an interesting idea, and I think it has had some precedence in the past when that very question came up in relation to whether buildings could be altered.
If we are thinking merely of who holds the copyright in a building, we are back to the precise question which I raised earlier in relation to magazine articles; that is, in whom does the copyright exist? With regard to this Chamber, if a copyright existed, it might be in the hands of Charles Barry, who was the principal architect; or others might say it should be in the hands of Pugin, who designed everything that we can see; or it might possibly be in the hands of the peculiar Edinburgh consulting engineer who designed the heating and ventilating system which failed and has since been replaced. A building of any kind is a very complicated matter and it is difficult to determine with whom the copyright lies.
It may be that I am wrong and it may be that the Bill does not mean that at all. I should be very grateful if the Minister would explain to me what it does mean and remove those doubts which I obviously have.
The other matter which worries me is this question of the architect and the architect's place in relation to a building or, as I say in my amendment, a piece of construction. It rests, it seems to me as a non-lawyer, on whether or not only a building can be artistic or whether, for instance, Waterloo Bridge, just over the road, can be artistic. I happen to think that it can, in so far as that matters. I think, to be quite frank, that Waterloo Bridge is far and away the best building or piece of construction which has been produced in London for many a long day—I would say since about 1930 or thereabouts when the Daily Express building was built (which may please the Minister).
What I have in mind here is that although the architect of Waterloo Bridge was Giles Gilbert Scott, he did not actually do anything—or at any rate he did not do anything which was of any interest to anybody except himself and the man who paid his fee. The design of Waterloo Bridge was entirely in the hands of a consulting engineer who produced a construction based upon mathematics and engineering principles. It has aesthetic qualities which are excelled, I would suggest, by no other structure in London. Should not constructions other than buildings be included in this part of the Bill?
To come a bit closer to home, it raises questions like the recent Lloyd's building in the City which was designed by a very famous architect, Richard Rogers, with very considerable help from extremely eminent engineers, Ove Arup. That building received an award today from the Financial Times. The award was given by the Secretary of State for the Environment, who remarked that Lloyd's had been founded originally in a coffee shop and now at long last it had got the percolator. But whether that be right or wrong, the point is that it is a building of substantial artistic merit which has an architect in a key position and an engineer also in a key position.
The same is true of many other buildings, such as the Pompidou Building in Paris and, even more important, the Sydney Opera House. In the case of the latter, the original concept was by a Scandinavian architect who shortly dropped out of the picture and the building was, in fact, designed to all intents and purposes by engineers.
I am merely wondering what the Government have in mind underlying this amendment, and am trying to ensure that when responsibility for the authorship of such structures comes up, as it will in later parts of the Bill, there will be fair play between architects, engineers, heating and ventilating engineers and others concerned in these quite complex enterprises. I beg to move.
5 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: The noble Lord raises a number of important points. This amendment would add engineering constructions to the list of works that constitute artistic works. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Howie, does not seek to cover engineering constructions generally, but only those that are buildings or structures. The 1911 Act contained a very long definition of what constituted an architectural work and included both buildings and structures. The 1956 Act merely referred to buildings

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and models for buildings and this is carried over into Clause 4.
The noble Lord's amendment has raised questions in our minds as to whether the present definition would encompass such structures as the Blackpool Tower or the Severn Bridge. And if these are included, is a chemical plant or even the big wheel in a fairground included? The existing case law suggests that the courts would come to the right conclusions without much trouble on the basis of the present wording of the clause. But we are prepared to go away and give the matter further thought. Therefore, if the noble Lord would agree to withdraw the amendment at this time we should like to look at it and see whether we can come forward with something that would improve matters.
Lord Howie of Troon: Whenever a Minister suggests that he will pay careful attention to what I have said, consider my words and possibly adopt them, or at least think about them, I accept with alacrity. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved manuscript Amendment No. 11B:
Page 2, line 27, at end insert "or of part of a building or of an extension to a building".
The noble Lord said: This amendment, which stands in the names of my noble friend Lord Morton of Shuna and myself, is simply designed to clarify the possibility that architectural plans—like, for instance, the extension to the National Gallery—could be in themselves a work of merit deserving copyright protection and that the Bill as drafted does not exclude this possibility. It seemed to us to be a sensible way of clarifying the position and it is in that spirit that I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: The amendment would expressly include in the definition of "artistic works" architectural models which do not represent complete buildings. We were not aware of any doubts as to whether such models benefit from copyright protection under the existing law to which this subsection restates. However, we are prepared to accept the amendment in principle, as we have no wish to see protection denied in these circumstances. We should just like to consider the drafting and any further thoughts we might have on the subject, and perhaps come back with our own amendment at the next stage if the noble Lord would find that agreeable.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I have always taken the view that it is not the Opposition's job to draft Bills; it is the Government's job to draft Bills. I am very happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Earl of Stockton The Earl of Stockton moved Amendment No. 12:
Page 2, line 27, at end insert—
("( ) a typeface,").
The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, it may be for the convenience of the Committee if I also
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speak to Amendments Nos. 13, 16, 23, 24 and 266. Many typefaces are very old and the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, who was at one time a sub-editor, will be familiar with venerable friends such as Caslon and Bodoni. However, in recent years typesetting has no longer been carried out by the process of hot metal being squirted into brass founts, but by a computer typesetting which is susceptible to enlargement or reduction by optical or photographic means. We are now in an era of machine readable typefaces and optical character recognition.
I believe that the design of a typeface, which also has a design function, is a matter of artistic skill and judgment. The amendments also refer to the typographical arrangements on the page, referred to earlier by the Minister, and I think he will admit that a large part of our appreciation of some of the classic editions stems from the arrangement of the type on the page. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Elvel: We support the noble Earl's amendment; and I am very glad to see the noble Viscount, Lord Long, who is to respond for the Government on this amendment. The problem with the Bill as drafted is that typeface is mentioned in subsequent parts of the Bill, but is not actually put up front in Clause 4 as a specific work entitled to copyright protection. I see that the noble Viscount is not now going to respond, so I shall address my remarks to the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook. This seems to us to be a major flaw in the design of the Bill, I have no doubt that this is a question of drafting. I also have no doubt that the noble Earl's case is well made and we support the amendment.
Lord Beaverbrook: I apologise for my momentary absence. I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Long for taking over for a moment. The amendments standing in the names of my noble friends Lord Mottistone and Lord Stockton would expressly provide that a typeface is an artistic work. We are not persuaded that amendments of this nature are necessary or desirable. The Government did indeed draw attention to the position of typefaces in copyright law in the 1986 White Paper on Intellectual Property and Innovation and said that we would amend copyright law to provide the necessary protection.
However in preparing the Bill the Government realised that the essential protection was already in place and all that was needed was provision to limit full copyright protection in certain circumstances. This situation arises because the design of a typeface, being an abstraction, needs to be represented in some material way and all such respresentations will be graphic works in their own right. Typically the designs will be represented in a drawing. Reproducing the typeface will therefore be an act restricted by the copyright in the drawing or other graphic work.
Consequently the only special provisions which the Bill makes for typefaces are to be found in Clauses 54 and 55, which puts limits on copyright protection appropriate to the particular characteristics of typefaces. The wording of subsection (1) of Clause 55 in particular can leave no doubt that copyright

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subsists in typeface designs embodied in artistic works.
The design of a typeface is an abstraction. All other types of artistic work are concrete, including a drawing embodying the design of a typeface. To introduce an abstraction into an otherwise concrete concept may cause confusion. It will certainly not clarify anything. I hope that in the light of the explanations the noble Earl will accept that the amendment is perhaps not necessary.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before the noble Earl decides what to do with his amendment, am I right in thinking that the Government put this in the draft Bill sent round for consultation in the summer and then took it out?
Lord Beaverbrook: Yes, that is the case.
Lord Williams of Elvel: So the Government started from the position that "typeface" should appear in this part of the Bill. Why did the Government change their mind?
Lord Beaverbrook: Because the Government took the view that it was better to proceed with the wording in the Bill as it is now drafted.
Lord Howie of Troon: Is not a typeface at least a close relative to a woodcut which turns up in line 34 on page 2 of the Bill? One might possibly suggest that a woodcut was a very big bit of typeface. One would not be wholly right or wholly wrong to suggest that. If not wholly correct, it would be a kind of analogy. If a woodcut, which, presumably at some time, derived from a drawing (as a typeface, in some cases, does) can be included, I should have thought that there was also a strong argument for including typeface in the Bill.
Lord Kennet: I hope that the noble Lord will be so kind as to answer two questions at once. Is it really the Government's opinion that a typeface is abstract and that all other works of art are concrete? I think that is what the noble Lord said just now unless I misheard. Imagine an abstract picture or a reproduction of an abstract picture containing white squares and white triangles on a black background and nothing else except a bit of print across it. Is it the Government's contention that the print is abstract and the squares and triangles are concrete? If so, what is their general approach to the question of semantics in art criticism?
Lord Beaverbrook: I shall deal first with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel. In preparing the Bill it was realised that it was unnecessary to create a separate class of work to achieve the desired result. We realised that a mistake had been made here and that therefore we should go back to the wording as printed in the Bill.
On the question of the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, I did say that the design of a typeface is an abstraction and that all other types of artistic work are concrete, including a drawing which embodies the design of a
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typeface. I think I am right in saying that where a work of art includes both it would probably come under the heading of an artistic work that is concrete. If I am wrong in that, I shall come back to it.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: It would be churlish of me not to thank the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, for having taken over so many of the amendments that stand in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, and myself and for developing a very attractive theme that will save time in a few moments. By way of explanation in respect of Amendments Nos. 16, 23 and 24, I must say that the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, is unable to be here tonight but has asked me to speak on his behalf, declaring his interest in acting for the CBI. I have been concerned with a printing firm whose name I have forgotten. There is an error on the Marshalled List where Amendments Nos. 23 and 24 should have my name associated with that of the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone.
Noble Lords: They have.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I see. There has been a correction. Again, I thank the Minister for having referred to the amendments which I shall of course not move when they are called.
Lord Howie of Troon: Will the Minister let me have his views on the points that I made about woodcuts?
Lord Morton of Shuna: I wish to add to the list of questions for the Minister. Am I not right that there is a particular convention on typefaces? Anyone looking at this part of the Bill to find out what "copyright" covers and who knew about that special convention as regards typeface would look for it but not find it. It would seem logical that it should be there.
Lord Beaverbrook: As regards the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, a typeface is not the same as a woodcut. Woodcuts are concrete if that is possible, but a typeface is in the shape of letters, figures and the light on the page itself. I shall write to the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, on the point that he made.
The Earl of Stockton: I am rather unhappy to hear the Minister dismiss typeface in such a cavalier fashion. It has long been established that typeface has a particular and extremely concrete quality. I have no doubt that the noble Lord's grandfather who made his fortune out of the use of typeface in its most concrete form would probably have agreed with me. I support the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, but I do not care to delay the Committee any further. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment Nos. 13 and 14 not moved.]
5.15 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 15:
Page 2, line 29, leave out paragraph (c).
The noble Lord said: This is a probing amendment to leave out paragraph (c):
"a work of artistic craftsmanship".
The amendment is designed to get the Government to define what a work of artistic craftsmanship is. The paragraph virtually repeats the words of the 1956 Act which stated:
"works of artistic craftsmanship not falling within either of the preceding paragraphs".
Those words:
"not falling within … the preceding paragraphs"
are omitted for some reason. What is a work of artistic craftsmanship? Since the 1956 Act there has been the case of Hensher v. Restawile where the judicial committee of this House refused to accept that a suite of modern furniture could be a work of artistic craftsmanship. It has been suggested that the judges and the counsel in that case came out with about nine different meanings of that expression. It seems that it is easier to decide what it is not rather than what it is. At present it may be that few works are likely to qualify as artistic craftsmanship where they are functional or where they have functional purposes
However, some articles must qualify, even if they are functional as well as artistic. This is a very difficult matter to deal with. It must be important for industry to know what is or what is not a work of artistic craftsmanship. I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: The noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, asked me to define what is meant by works of artistic craftsmanship. These works comprise a small and imprecisely delimited class of copyright work. To qualify for protection a work must involve both artistry and craftsmanship. Those questions can be answered only by assessment of the particular work. This contrasts with the treatment of other artistic works such as drawings or photographs which are defined simply as products of the particular process. Case law has mainly served to deny particular works protection under that category. Examples include an infant's cape, rods used to teach mathematics and, for instance, a particular piece of furniture.
I readily admit that this class of works causes some difficulty. It is not entirely satisfactory that the public cannot be confident in predicting whether copyright subsists in a given work. However, the category gives some flexibility to the definition of artistic works so that works which do not qualify for protection as graphic works, photographs, sculptures or works of architecture may find their protection here. To deny that possibility might deny protection for works of genuine artistry such as pottery, embroidery and other forms of craftsmanship with an artistic element.
Lord Howie of Troon: Does the Minister include among the works of craftsmanship a certain form of typeface which does not occur in a drawing or as an impression on paper but which is an item you can hold in your hand? If the Minister has any time on his hands in the next week or two, perhaps he would care to pay a brief visit to Camden Passage. It is not far away. There he will find set out in a number of stalls
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a sizeable number of pieces of typeface. Many of them are of very high aesthetic quality and considerable craftsmanship. Perhaps if he cannot answer me immediately he will wander down Camden Passage and see the pieces I refer to.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: Has anyone consulted the Crafts Council, which is an important and highly subsidised body under the Minister for the Arts? I am sure that it can give a better definition than we have had so far.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: Perhaps the Minister can reply to the case which the noble Lord, Lord Morton, has made for furniture. I believe that Mr. Chippendale would have been amazed that he was not covered by the copyright Bill.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: I do not propose to discuss before the Committee in its legislative capacity a case in which I took part in noble Lords' deliberations in a judicial capacity. However, in the case of Hensher noble Lords did not decide that a suite of furniture was not a work of artistic craftsmanship but merely that that particular suite of furniture was not. That was decided on the basis of the expert evidence.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, for clarifying that point. I agree that case law has mainly served to deny particular works protection under the category; in many cases that included a particular piece of furniture.
In reply to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, I shall certainly look into the matter even if I do not have time to go down to Camden Passage and examine the items that he has described. I hope that I have been able to clarify what is meant by works of artistic craftsmanship. I acknowledge that it is not an easy area. I hope we can at least agree that it is something which should remain in the Bill.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Before the Minister sits down, he does not appear to have taken the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, concerning the Crafts Council. Was it consulted?
Lord Beaverbrook: I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson. I understand that the Crafts Council was not consulted. I shall look into that matter further.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I do not intend to press the amendment. It appears odd that on the matter of artistic craftsmanship a court must look at the question of what is or is not artistic when that is something at which it is forbidden to look in relation to graphic works, photographs and sculpture. Where the distinction is drawn between sculpture and artistic craftsmanship seems to be an area of supreme difficulty. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 16:
Page 2, line 29, at end insert ("; or
(d) the design of a typeface.").
The noble Lord said: I was also disappointed like the noble Lord, Lord Howie, and the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, that no reference could be made in the Bill to the design of a typeface. However, I have listened to what has been said and, subject to returning to the matter at a later date, I do not propose to move the amendment.
[Amendment No. 16 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 17 not moved.]
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 2, line 32, at end insert ("or composition of any of them,").
The noble Lord said: The amendment is designed to draw attention to a type of graphic work which may not be one particular of any of the items mentioned in the Bill or which may even be a composition of a number of such types of work—the collage. The principle of collage is well known. One takes a part of a painting, for example, or of a diagram, map, chart or whatever, and makes a composition which is stuck on a piece of canvas. That is then a work in its own right. There may be other forms of composition and different types of works which are spelt out in the Bill. All the amendment seeks to do is to draw the Government's attention to that type of work and, if it is appropriate, to widen the definition to include those types of work that I have mentioned. I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: We were somewhat puzzled as to the content of the noble Lord's amendment. I am grateful to him for raising the matter at this time. I should like to look at what he has said and perhaps write to him as soon as possible concerning our opinion.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am most grateful to the Minister. Perhaps I should have let him know my intention in tabling the amendment. I hope that in writing to me he will consider carefully whether the Government should bring forward an amendment on Report. If that is to be the result, I am happy to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Before I call Amendment No. 19, I should point out that if it is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 20, 21 and 22.
Lord Brain Lord Brain moved Amendment No. 19:
Page 2, line 36, leave out from ("any") to ("which") in line 37 and insert ("image produced by a photographic method or retrieved from any image storage system for recording radiation").
The noble Lord said: I believe that the Government are seeking a definition of photography which covers not only the present state of the art but also future developments. I am not sure that they have done so successfully. I think that Amendment No. 19 will probably cover most of the worries giving rise to Amendments Nos. 20, 21 and 22, particularly about holography.
Photography is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as:
"The process or art of producing pictures by means of the chemical action of light on a sensitive film on a basis of paper, glass, metal, etc.; the business of producing and printing such pictures".
That definition covers the traditional processes which have been used for nearly 150 years. In particular, it covers holography, which is a specific application of a process for colour photography defined in 1890 or thereabouts by Lipmann using interference patterns on a very thin film of emulsion.
I do not think that the original definition covers many of the processes currently under development, some of which have been described and others which are a natural sequence of events. We already have a still version of what I think is most easily described as a video recording whereby one takes an image and records it electromagnetically on a magnetic film. I think that that is hardly akin to photography. It may be said that the fact that the light comes onto a sensitive plate in an electronic device falls just within the definition of chemical action of light on a sensitive surface. If one then takes the image digitally, puts it into a computer and subsequently prints it digitally on a screen, is that akin to photography?
I thought that something like my definition, which involves retrieving images which have been stored, would be appropriate. They may be stored photographically; they may be stored by lasers on a compact disc, as I have recently seen described in a paper published before the Imaging Technology Committee of the Royal Photographic Society. There is so much scope for recording methods which are likely to be brought out in the future. It may be retrieving images by radiation; it may be an electron beam; it may be infra-red radiation. But none of this is covered by the definition of light shown in the Oxford English Dictionary.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Howie of Troon: I wonder just how far this amendment includes the whole field of computer-aided drawing. Am Ito understand that a computer-aided drawing becomes subject to copyright at such time as it is printed on paper in some way? Can it be covered by copyright while it is still in the computer and available to be retrieved from the computer?
Lord Morton of Shuna: I have my name in the same group as that of my noble friend Lord Williams relating to Amendment No. 21. It is to leave out,
"or of a process akin to photography".
That was merely a probing amendment to try to find out what might be intended by the words "a process akin to photography". It is in the same group as the amendment spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Brain.
If one looks at the definition in Clause 4 of the Bill, it is similar to the definition in the 1956 Act, which defines a photograph as meaning any product of photography, or of a process akin to photography other than a part of a cinema film. There it stopped. It went on to define the author. Here the definition goes one stage further and refers to a graphic work and a reprographic copy.

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It is not at all clear to me what may be the limits of being akin to photography and what the limits of kinship may be. It was with the aim of the finding out that I put down this amendment. In general, I support the thinking and the drafting of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Brain, so far as I am competent to do so.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am sure that the Members of the Committee are deeply grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brain, for his very clear explanation of this highly technical matter. In moving this amendment he said he was not quite satisfied with the wording of it. He said that he was open for some improvement to be made later in order to deal with this matter.
I should declare an interest in that I was entertained by the famous international patent agents, Marks and Clerk, on the centenary, I believe, of the birth of a Member of this House, Lord Marks, who founded the firm. After I had given my address to a large gathering of 700 people in Birmingham, I was presented with a hologram. It has been a very difficult operation to get it fitted up in any place in my abode convenient to my wife. Nevertheless, the hologram is still there.
I bear in mind the advice given to me by the British Computer Society. The noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, refers in his Amendment No. 21 to a process akin to photography. I do not think it is fair to say that holography is quite akin to photography in that sense. I support the theme of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Brain, but I suggest to him, if I may presume to do so, that the word "holography" or "hologram" should be included somewhere. Not everybody knows the difference between a hologram and a photograph.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brain, for putting down this amendment, to the noble Lords, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran and Lord Mottistone, and also to the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, for his amendment. In speaking to Amendment No. 19, with the leave of the Committee I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 20, 21 and 22. These amendments seek to broaden the scope of the definition of a photograph although they approach the matter in different ways.
This is something we considered when drafting the Bill but in the end we decided merely to repeat the definition contained in Section 48 of the 1956 Act. This was on the grounds that the definition has the merit of being openended and would allow the courts to reach sensible results which a closed definition might prevent. We considered holograms in arriving at this conclusion and took the view that they are products of a process akin to photography. We are now told that this may not be so, and in these circumstances it is clear that we must look again at this point. I add that if the representations are correct there may be a logical difficulty in calling a product a photograph when it is the result of a process having no affinity with photography.
The alternative approach to this question is to attempt a generalised definition as the noble Lord, Lord Brain, proposes in his amendment. I have
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referred to the danger that a closed definition of this kind might prove unduly limiting in the future, but we have by no means closed our minds to this approach. However, we see a fundamental difficulty with the definition the noble Lord has proposed, in that the protected work would be an image and that image need not be a tangible one. This contrasts with the existing law and with the Bill as drafted, where a photograph is a tangible product, as indeed are all the other forms of artistic work specified in Clause 4. To extend copyright protection to, say, projected images or holographic images as distinct from the protection afforded to the film or hologram itself would be a major step with considerable and possibly undesirable implications.
Nevertheless, the Government are prepared to look again at this definition in the light of the views expressed by noble Lords, giving particular consideration to the latest technologies for recording images of all kinds.
As regards the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Howie, concerning computer-aided drawings, copyright in a computer-aided drawing will subsist as soon as it is recorded even in the bowels of the computer. One does not need to wait for a printout of the drawing, but this really has nothing to do with photographs or holograms.
Lord Brain: I should like to thank the Minister for his reception of my amendment. I mildly cross swords with him as to whether or not a hologram is a photographic item. I certainly agree that there is no reason why it should not be added to the definition of a photograph even though in its original form as a hologram it has nothing visible on it until it is illuminated. Then the illuminated thing is an intangible image. I am sure the Minister will enjoy trying to sort that one out. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 20 to 24 not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 4 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Broxbourne: Perhaps I may take up a few moments of the Committee's time on the question of the definition of artistic work, in particular graphic work, which is dealt with in this clause. I preface my remarks by making a declaration of interest, ex abundanti cautela. I am a director of the William Weston gallery which specialises in particular in graphics. That gallery may be known to the Committee. In any event, a visit from any member of the Committee will be more than welcome and there will be a warm reception with expert instruction. I shall join in the warm reception, if present, but the Committee will be relieved to know that the expert instruction will be given by others.
On the subject of graphic work, subsection (2) of the Bill says:
"'graphic work' includes … any engraving, etching, lithograph, woodcut, print or similar work".
The Committee spent some time debating the words "irrespective of artistic quality" and properly reached the conclusion that artistic quality is not

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justiciable. Indeed, it changes from generation to generation, apart from individual to individual.
What is justiciable and important is originality. An original print is a work on which the creator, the artist, has individually worked. Bearing that definition in mind and appreciating (as I am sure the Committee will) that that is the only type of graphic which should have a copyright, we then look at the catalogue of words and see, "print or similar work". I have looked in vain for a definition of "print" for the purposes of the Bill, but I have not found one. The Minister will correct me if, among the voluminous pages of this Bill, there lurks a definition. He will be able to identify it and I will be both grateful and apologetic.
The word "print", in the absence of a definition, is almost bound to lead to confusion and in modern usage is considerably debased. In the terminology of some people, the word "print" includes not only graphics on which the artist has personally worked—an original print in the terms of the definition that I have just given—but also works which are merely the result of mechanical or photographic process. Therefore, to include the word "print" in the catalogue of definitions is inviting confusion and to include, after that, the words "or similar work", thereby attracting all the perils of the ejusdem generis interpretations, is adding to it.
I am sorry to appear critical of a clause which is obviously the result of much devoted labour and consideration. Like the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, I do not consider it my duty to draft the Bill, but I think it is the duty of us all to take account of imperfections in it. Therefore, I should be grateful if my noble friend will look at this particular point between now and Report with a view to introducing a clarifying amendment.
Lord Kilbracken: I have been worried about the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne, and I am glad that once again we have an expert in the Committee who can tell us exactly what is meant by engravings, etchings, and so on.
I want to draw attention to the next definition: that of a photograph. There is one point here on which I am not entirely clear. We are told, among other things, that it means any product of photography which is not part of a film. Film is defined here as being what one would normally call a cinematograph film, and it also covers a video tape. What is the position when a single frame from a cinematograph film is used to make a still photograph, which is possible and an everyday thing to do, or when a still photograph is made from a video tape by photographing the screen, which I suppose is the technique. In those cases it would seem to me that we are talking about a photograph. It is a still photograph which is published or used in a way which any other photograph can be used but still appears to be part of a film. Therefore, I wonder whether it is right to exclude part of a film completely from the definition of a photograph.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Howie of Troon: I strongly support the stance taken by the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne. As he
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said, there are two distinct kinds of print. One group clearly covers artistic works and the other group something quite different. The Government should certainly think closely about what the noble Lord said.
What really worries me in Clause 4 also worries me in Clause 3. It is on a definition of a kind which interested the Committee earlier. I notice in Clause 4(1) that artistic work "means", whereas in subsection (2) graphic work "includes". In Clause 3 literary work "means" but dramatic work "includes" and musical work "means". Why is the locution that something "means", and appears to be in the form of a definition, used in some parts of the clause, whereas the locution that something "includes" merely one or two things—and I think in that sense excludes a definition—is used in another part? I have no doubt that there is a legal precedent for this—probably many of them—but I should like an explanation of whether that precedent is sensible.
Lord Hayter: I should like to say something about the phrase "artistic craftsmanship". It was suggested to the Minister that he should consult the Crafts Council and I think that is good advice. It would also be good advice to consult the Design Council. The word "design" does not appear anywhere in this particular part of the Bill and yet one would have thought that one could copyright a design. Surely the design comes before the craftsmanship, which is a point I should like the Minister to consider.
Lord Beaverbrook: We shall look at that and see whether the Design Council should be consulted on that matter. To respond to my noble friend Lord Broxbourne, there is no definition of "print". The word was used in the 1956 Act and has caused no problems. It should not be forgotten that a print is protected by copyright only if it is original as provided in Clause 1(1)(a) and we have already looked at that. Of course, we will consider what my noble friend has said and see whether we can improve the drafting.
The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, raised the point as to whether a still photograph taken from a single frame of a film would be both a photograph and part of the film. I do not believe that that distinction matters. It is important that a single frame should not be regarded as a photograph and that is what Clause 4 achieves.
Regarding the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howie, the word "means" is an exclusive definition which covers everything within it. "Includes" is a non-exclusive definition and the word in question has its natural meaning but includes other things.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 [Sound recordings and films]:
Lord Beaverbrook Lord Beaverbrook moved Amendment No. 25:
Page 3, line 7, after ("work") insert ("or part").
The noble Lord said: The amendment will correct a flaw in the drafting of the clause as printed. It clearly cannot be a condition, for a sound recording to be classed as such, that the whole of the work may

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be produced from the recording if only a part of the work was recorded in the first place.
For reasons I explained to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, this amendment will prove a more complete remedy than the one he tabled. It was his amendment which first alerted us to the fact that something was wrong, and I am most grateful to him for identifying our mistake. I beg to move.
Lord Kilbracken: Can the Minister explain why paragraph (b) is necessary at all? We read in paragraph (a) that a sound recording means a recording of sounds. The subsection continues,
"or (b) a recording of the whole or any part of.
But that of course, is a recording of sounds. Surely paragraph (b) is already embraced by paragraph (a).
Lord Beaverbrook: Perhaps I can take the noble Lord's point now. There is obviously a very great overlap between the two paragraphs. But there are things in paragraph (b) that are not in paragraph (a). Paragraph (a) refers to a recording of sounds; paragraph (b) covers all recordings of works from which sounds may be reproduced, whether made by recording sounds or not. Old fashioned piano rolls and modern electronic recordings may both be works made without recording sounds. So they must be covered by the definition.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 26 not moved.]
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 27:
Page 3, line 9, leave out ("and").
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I should also speak to Amendment No. 30. The purpose of these two amendments is to insert a definition of a film sound track. This is felt to be necessary, especially as Clause 61 specifically refers to a film sound track. It would therefore appear requisite that one should have a definition of what it is.
As proposed by Amendment No. 30, a film sound track means a sound recording accompanying a film. I do not think I need to provide much explanation. No doubt the drafting is not perfect. I beg to move.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: May I very briefly say that I support the amendment. It seeks to clarify the term "film sound-track" which is used for the first time in copyright legislation.
Lord Beaverbrook: Under the Bill as drafted the sound-track for a film qualifies as a sound recording in its own right. This approach is different of course from that in the 1956 Act under which it was treated as part of the film. We have carefully picked up the few points in the Bill at which the sound-track needs special treatment, for example in Clause 61.
The problem is that in all of those cases, we are dealing with a sound recording which does not inevitably accompany a film as its sound-track but in some circumstances does. Consider for example a musical sound-track equally capable of separate existence as a record or tape. Thus it is not possible, as the amendment would propose, to define a sound-
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track as a sound recording accompanying a film. Sometimes it will; sometimes it will not.
The absence of a definition in the Bill is not for want of trying. But we have been unsuccessful. We have concluded that a sound-track is what lawyers call an elephant. It is easier to recognise than to describe. I am sure that in practice no one will have any doubt, in circumstances in which it matters, as to whether he is dealing with a sound-track or not. I hope that that explanation goes some way towards satisfying the noble Lord.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I can of course see the difficulty in defining elephants. I have spoken on that in trying to define a crime of violence. As regards a film sound-track, if you are going to use, in an Act these words, I would have thought it might help to define them, especially when you define almost everything else. While the sound-track is accompanying the film, it is a film sound-track; thereafter, it is a sound recording. I would have thought that fairly clear.
I really do not see that the amendment complicates the Bill. I would have thought that it is made simpler. However, I have no intention of dividing the Committee. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 28:
Page 3, line 11, leave out ("moving picture") and insert ("picture of movement").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is a pure matter of semantics. A moving picture is not really the correct description, I would have thought, of what is happening. One sees a picture of movement. That is all that this attempts to get across. The idea is not that the picture moves, but that it is a representation of movement. I beg to move.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I hesitate to get involved in any semantics but I am advised by industrialists that it has become commonplace to define film images and that the correct definition of what a film shows is a moving picture. To change the words seems to me not helpful.
Lord Kilbracken: I raised this point on Second Reading. I do not like at all this reference to something being merely semantic. I hope that the noble Lord is not being anti-semantic. I happen to believe that there is no particular reason why a Bill should not be written in reasonably good English. I wish other noble Lords would sometimes join me in putting down semantic amendments. I did point out that we really do not any more talk about "moving pictures". A long, long time ago we said, "Shall we go to the moving pictures?" That became, "Shall we go to the movies?" We all know what that means. But it is not a word that is used in the 1980s any more. And, really, it should not appear in a high-tech Bill.
My noble friend's amendment is certainly an improvement. But can we not do better—even to say "from which a motion picture may by any means be

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produced". What we call a film is always known in America as a motion picture. It is a phrase also frequently used here. Somehow it seems to belong more to the 1980s and less to the 1930s.
Lord Lloyd of Hampstead: Perhaps I may suggest the appropriate phrase here would be: a moving image. We are, for example, in the process of creating a museum of the moving image at the moment under the auspices of the British Film Institute on the South Bank, and that has become the recognised phrase when one is talking about images which move on a screen.
Lord Denning: We all know what a moving picture is and that is good enough. We do not want these other phrases.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: A film is a moving picture. It is not a picture of movement. A picture of movement may be a still picture. A film surely is a moving picture.
Lord Brain: I think also we have missed the point that certain images—and I must accept that term—are perfectly still and the camera moves. There is no movement in the picture.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: Moving picture is part of the English language. Let it remain so.
6 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: I shall have to agree with my noble and learned friend and with the noble Lords, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran and Lord Hutchinson. I recall that on Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, expressed some surprise at finding the expression "moving picture" in a Bill intended to meet the demands of the present day and into the next century. The Government would be only too pleased to accommodate the noble Lord, or any others who feel that way, if an alternative definition could be found; but I am afraid that the alternative proposed in the amendment cannot be accepted.
A picture of a movement includes a photograph of, for example, a racing car crossing a finishing line in a grand prix and a painting of waves crashing on the sea shore. A picture of movement does not include a film of a building unless it is taken during an earthquake. We believe that "moving picture" is the best definition that can be provided. It appears in the 1956 Act, and has caused no problems. While we wish to be up to date, we should not discard well-established and understood expressions lightly, particularly if the gain in modern expression is outweighed by a loss in clarity.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I assure my noble friend Lord Kilbracken that I have an interest in semantics. By referring to "mere" I was not meaning to diminish that interest.
Lord Kilbracken: It was the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, who said "mere semantics".
Lord Morton of Shuna: I thought that I did.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I think that this is a matter of semantics. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham. It is part of the English language. Let it remain so.
Lord Morton of Shuna: All I was going to do was to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 29 and 30 not moved].
On Question, Whether Clause 5 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before we leave Clause 5, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord about copyright in the compilation of older material. As I understand it, in the Bill as drafted, there is no copyright in a sound recording, film or broadcast which is a compilation of older material which may or may not still have an independent copyright. If so, why is there a difference between that and a literary work which I believe is protected? What is the difference between literary works, and sound recordings and films in that respect?
Lord Beaverbrook: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Williams, is talking about a long-playing record that is made up of previously recorded material into one compilation album. Am I right in assuming that?
Lord Williams of Elvel: I shall give an example. A sound recording may be made up of excerpts of this or that. A film or broadcast may take excerpts from something else which has its own copyright. Together they form a work. A broadcast may be a description of the Second World War, for instance. The broadcaster would take excerpts from material which is already copyright. It seems to me, from the drafting of the Bill as it stands, that that work (which includes other works which are copyright) has no copyright in its own right. I may be mistaken about that. I would be happy if the noble Lord can tell me that I am wrong. That is the point upon which I should like elucidation.
Lord Willis: I think that my noble friend is slightly wrong here. There could be no copyright in the final object because if one is doing a compilation, for example, of the Second World War or of the life of Fred Astaire, one has to go to other copyright owners to obtain the material. That material is vested in them. If one wants them to extend the life of the compilation that has been made or if one wants to sell it, whoever buys it from the maker has then to go to the original copyright owners once again to obtain their permission. No problem arises here. The original copyright owners are protected. There is no copyright in the compilation, in my view quite rightly.
Lord Beaverbrook: A compilation may have a copyright of its own if it is a fresh recording. That would of course not extend the copyright in the individual items themselves.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble Lord. Does he believe that my noble friend Lord Willis is wrong when he says that the compilation itself has no copyright? I understood him to say that it may have copyright it it is recorded.
Lord Beaverbrook: I believe that I am right when I say that a compilation may have copyright of its own if it is a fresh recording.
Lord Willis: With respect, I think that the noble Lord is wrong. A compilation is usually made up of excerpts from other copyright material. That copyright material remains static for as long as the copyright exists. One cannot repeat the compilation unless one has bought the rights of those copyright owners. Let us take my example of the life of Fred Astaire. One would have to take excerpts from his films. One would have to pay the writers (the owners of the copyright) for those excerpts. They would want to know at the time that they were being bought what was to be done with the compilation. They might sell the rights to the excerpts for two showings of the compilation. There would be no long life to that compilation unless one bought the whole copyright, which in most cases would be impossible. I do not think a problem arises here because the copyright is protected at the very beginning.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. If what I have said is incorrect, I shall of course return to the noble Lords concerned and let them know.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Broadcasts]:
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 31:
Page 3, line 16, after ("reception") insert ("by members of the public").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 31 standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Morton of Shuna. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak also to Amendments Nos. 32, 33 and 34. In Clause 6 we are dealing with broadcasts. All these amendments are intended for clarification.
Amendment No. 31 deals with the expression "general reception". We can conceive of circumstances where "general reception" is general to people who are members of a class and not necessarily members of the public. I use the word "class" in the mathematical sense—a sub-universe if one likes—not in a political sense. When reading the Bill carefully, it seemed to us that to insert the expression "by members of the public" would clarify what "general" meant in the Bill.
Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 are designed merely to reinforce what many noble Lords have said in Committee—a respect for the English language. We do not recognise the words "to access" other than in computer jargon. We recognise the verb "to accede". Something is "accessible to" rather than "accessible by". Other noble Lords may have different views on the English language, but that seemed to us to be sensible clarification.
Amendment No. 34 is perhaps more substantial. It deals with those who receive broadcasts and it interprets what is accessible to members of the public by the definitions contained in subsection (2)(a) and (b). It does not seem to us that the word "lawfully" in Clause 6 (2)(a) is necessary. Indeed it is possible to conceive a broadcast being received by members of the public which should properly be in Clause 6. Nevertheless, that reception may be unlawful. Perhaps I may give an example. I am not sure whether it is lawful or not for United Kingdom residents to receive the BBC World Service. Nevertheless, a number of United Kingdom residents receive the World Service. It seems that the word "lawfully" here unduly restricts the definition of accessible to members of the public.
It is a slightly more substantial point. I do not believe that it is a point of enormous materiality but it is something we should consider. For that reason I beg to move Amendment No. 31.
Lord Kilbracken: I had no idea that I was breaking the law by listening to the World Service which I do quite frequently. I am not sure why that should be illegal.
However, I should like to rise briefly to support my noble friend on his Amendments Nos. 33 and 34, which would alter accessible "by" to accessible "to". It seems to me without any doubt that that is correct. As my noble friend said, there is now a computer-speak word "to access". If applied here, that which can be accessed is accessible by members of the public. However, that is the only meaning of the word under which "accessible by" should be used and it certainly does not apply here.
Lord Denning: I do not think that there is any need for the word "lawfully" to be left out.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: With the leave of the Committee I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 31, 32, 33 and 34 in that order. On Amendment No. 31, in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Williams and Lord Morton, the purpose of subsection (1)(a) is to provide a broad definition to embrace all transmissions which are intended to be generally available. "Broadcast for general reception" seems about as wide as you can get and I do not believe that there is anything to be gained by limiting the category to transmissions to a particular class of person, even when that class is so large as to constitute all members of the public. Adding these words seems to imply that there could in theory be an opposite type of transmission; namely, "a transmission broadcast for general reception by persons other than the public". That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms.
Turning to Amendment No. 32 the purpose of subsection (1)(c) is to deal with all those satellite transmissions which are not intended primarily for direct reception by the public but which a member of the public may nonetheless lawfully tune into if he has the appropriate equipment and what is called a "Television Receive Only" or TVRO licence from the

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Department of Trade and Industry. A typical example would be Skychannel which is aimed first and foremost at cable networks rather than individuals.
The paragraph brings within the concept of a broadcast all such satellite-delivered programme services which are either transmitted unencrypted (colloquially known, I believe, as "in the clear"), or for which, if encrypted, decoding equipment is made available by the operator to anyone willing to pay the necessary sum for rental or purchase. Under the 1956 Act such transmissions are not broadcasts and the satellite programme providers are not required by law to obtain consent from copyright owners to include their works in their transmissions, though in practice they normally do so.
The only satellite transmissions not covered by paragraph (c) will be encrypted transmissions not falling within paragraph (a) or (b) and for which decoding equipment is not generally available to the public. By "not available" is meant the case where even if a member of the public applies and is willing to pay for such equipment he will be refused. Transmissions of police, military or weather data by satellite would be an example of restricted services excluded from paragraph (c). Members of the Committee will have noted that under Clauses 269 to 271 it will remain illegal to market decoding equipment without the authority of the programme provider (as is at present the case under Sections 53 and 54 of the Cable and Broadcasting Act 1984).
With regard to Amendment No. 34, the practical effect of retaining the word "lawfully" in line 23 may not be very great but we would, I believe, be unwise to omit it. The effect of removing it would be that certain classes of private transmission by satelite which are not intended for the public, and which it is unlawful for the public to receive, might have to be treated as broadcasts for copyright purposes. Again I am thinking of police and military transmissions should these be made by satellite in unencrypted form. This outcome would be unwelcome because it would oblige the persons responsible for such transmissions, by virtue of their being broadcasts, to obtain the consent of the copyright owner if for any reason they included copyright material in their transmissions. This is not required under present law and we do not think it would be approprirate to make it so. The private communication of copyright material between two parties is not a restricted act in other spheres of copyright and it should not be so in the broadcasting field.
At present it might make little difference to omit the word "lawfully" because the receiving licences available to the public, including the Department of Trade and Industry's "Television Receive Only" licence which covers satellite transmissions, do not entitle you to listen in to transmissions such as those of the police and the armed forces. These transmissions would therefore fall outside the class of services which are defined in subsection (2) as accessible by the public by virtue of being available if you hold "any necessary licence". In reality a member of the public would not hold the necessary licence. However, this Bill is intended to last for a
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long time and there can be no certainty that the present system of licensing under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts will endure throughout its term. Inclusion of the word "lawfully" is a useful safeguard and I believe that we should retain it.
The noble Lord, Lord Williams, asked me whether he and the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, can listen to the World Service lawfully. The answer is yes, but that is not a relevant case. The World Service is broadcast for general reception, and is therefore referred to in paragraph (a), and the point about "lawfully" arises only in respect of other satellite transmissions in paragraph (c).
Lord Kilmarnock: Before the noble Lord, Lord Williams, decides what he wishes to do let me say that I also find my hackles rising somewhat on the point of "accessible by". I am in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, on keeping good, transparent English in the statute. The verb "to access" is clearly a jargon term and I would submit that it is unwise to have it on the face of a statute. Could we not get round the difficulty by using the phrase "capable of access by" and then we should not be introducing into the statute the verb "to access".
Lord Kilbracken: This is not a context in which the verb "to access" would be used. It is used when working with computers. The Minister has been extremely good in dealing with all the points that arose from Members of the Committee. However, it seemed to me that he did not give a proper reply to Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 put forward by my noble friend.
Lord Beaverbrook: As regards Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 I gave as full an answer as I felt I could. Perhaps I may finish speaking to Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 specifically. I accept that these amendments are intended only to improve the drafting of Clause 6 but I do not believe that they necessarily do so. The phrase "accessible to" is a more passive one than "accessible by" and carries an implication that only those satellite services should be included that a member of the public could easily obtain without going to any special effort. The phrase "accessible by" is broader in that it more obviously encompasses services which the viewer may receive but only with a certain amount of enterprise and resolution. It is fair to say that that is still true of the direct reception of most satellite services. As regards the use of the word "accessible", I shall carefully consider what has been said in the Committee this evening to see whether we could not improve on that expression.
Lord Kilbracken: I must point out that "accessible by" is the passive term and "accessible to" is active.
Lord Williams of Elvel: On the last point, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for being willing to reconsider this use of the English language. Even in computer-speak I cannot see how anybody can access a satellite broadcast; but if the Government feel that they can, it is up to them. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock has suggested another

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version which meets the Government's need and is in English.
On the question of general reception, I take what the noble Lord said and accept that he means the expression "general reception" to be as wide as possible. Therefore any qualification of "general" would be restrictive rather than widening. I thought it important to emphasise that members of the public would be able to access a satellite broadcast, if I can imitate the language of the Bill, rather than anybody else. I accept what the noble Lord has said and shall not press that point.
On the question of the word "lawfully," I again accept what the noble Lord said about the possibility that the law might change. But we have to deal with the law as it is at present. I could easily understand if the noble Lord were to say that the Secretary of State, or whoever it might be, might have powers to widen the definition or to introduce new laws. But simply to leave it on the basis that the Bill when enacted will have to last for 20 years and anything might happen, seems to me to be a rather dangerous phenomenon. I hope that the Government will think again, bearing in mind the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, that this perhaps is not necessary at present but is something that might be thought about again in the future. Perhaps the noble Lord might wish to respond.
Lord Beaverbrook: Our view is as I set out on the inclusion of the word "lawfully". I believe that as I said before it would be unwise to admit it. Of course we shall look at what all noble Lords have said this evening. If we feel that there is any change to our view we shall come forward at that time. In our belief the need for the word "lawfully" does not relate to change in the law, but to the licensing arrangements under the existing law. However, we shall consider this very carefully.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble Lord. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 32 to 34 not moved.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Serota): In calling Amendment No. 35, I should point out to the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 36.
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 35:
Page 3, line 30, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert ("to the person who has responsibility for the transmission").
The noble Lord said: This amendment addresses a rather different problem because it is essential to know, when considering a Bill of this nature, exactly who is responsible for the transmission. I should say in parentheses that we used the word "transmission" rather than "broadcast" because we have been told that "broadcast" is not a verb, it is a noun. We have notice that in certain places in the Bill the word "broadcast" rather than the word "transmit" is used as a verb rather than as a noun. I have that on advice, I am not pretending that I am an expert on this matter.
The substance of the amendment seeks to fix the person who is making the broadcast: in other words, the person who is responsible. The Bill as drafted refers to,
"the person by whom the transmission is made if he has responsibility to any extent for the contents of the broadcast; … if he has not, to the person who has such responsibility and makes with him the arrangements necessary for the transmission".
It seems to us that the proper definition of the person making a broadcast, broadcasting a work and including a work in a broadcast, should properly rest with the person who has the responsibiilty for the transmission. This is a probing amendment; it is not meant to be an amendment which we shall force, but it seems to us to simplify subsection (3) and also to place the responsibility where it should properly lie.
I am sure the noble Lord and his advisers will have good reasons why we are wrong. I should very much like to hear the reasons because, although this is a probing amendment, it has more substance than some of our earlier drafting amendments. I look forward to hearing what the noble Lord has to say. I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: Subsection (3) defines who is the broadcaster for copyright purposes. This is important in relation to authorship and ownership of copyright, which will be dealt with in Clauses 9, 10 and 11. Our intention is that it should be the person by whom a transmission is made if he controls to any extent the contents of the broadcast. This is provided by paragraph (a). It would not be appropriate in all circumstances however, for the person making the transmission to be regarded as the person making the broadcast and thus its author. British Telecom, for example, provides common carrier services for several broadcasters—that is by transmitting services to satellites, without being in any way responsible for or necessarily even aware of the contents of the programmes. In these circumstances, the proper person to be regarded as making the broadcast should clearly be the person controlling the contents; and, with the common carrier, making the arrangements necessary for the transmission. This is provided for by paragraph (b), and it is the situation that both broadcasters and common carriers such as British Telecom and Mercury have told us they wish to see.
I believe that an amendment such as the one put down by the noble Lord would introduce precisely the confusion on this issue that we have been at pains to remove.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I hear what the noble Lord says. It seems to me that we are trying to get at the same point—who is responsible for the transmission. The person who is responsible for the transmission must in all circumstances be responsible for the contents of the transmission. It does not seem to me that he can avoid his responsibility and say, "I am just a common carrier and will transmit whatever anyone tells me to do". He has responsibility and entitlements under that responsibility. I hear what the Minister says; but I do not quite understand why the draftsman's words are better than ours. He has not solved my problem. If the Minister can perhaps

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help me a little more, I may be able to withdraw my amendment; but I do not know whether he can do so.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am not sure that I can. The view that we take is that the common carrier, such as British Telecom, may not even be aware of the content of the transmission. Therefore, the responsibility should not rest with the common carrier.
Lord Kilbracken: Is the reason the draftsman's words are better, that they are the draftsman's words?
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to my noble friend for suggesting that the draftsman's words are better than my words. Indeed, they certainly are, because I am not a parliamentary draftsman.
As long as we are absolutely satisfied that we are getting at the same point—and I am not sure that we are—I am happy to withdraw my amendment. In the light of what the noble Lord has said, I do not see that I can go much further this evening. I shall look carefully at what he has said and perhaps he will do me the favour of looking carefully at the arguments I have put forward and then at a later stage we can come back to this point, which is one of a little more substance than some of the earlier points I raised. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 36:
Page 3, line 31, leave out ("the contents of the broadcast,") and insert ("its contents,").
The noble Lord said: The remarks just made by my noble friend reminded me once again that irony is a dangerous weapon.
Amendment No. 36 is a drafting amendment which is intended to clarify the meaning of subsection (3). Clause 6 begins by telling us:
"In this Part a 'broadcast' means a transmission by wireless telegraphy".
We start off by knowing that a broadcast and a transmission are the same thing. However, when we reach subsection (3)(a) we read:
"to the person by whom the transmission is made if he has responsibility to any extent for the Contents of the broadcast".
The reference to broadcast and the reference to transmission are precisely the same thing. There is no reason other than what Fowler used to call "elegant variation" for using first "transmission" and then "broadcast". Under my proposed amendment the subsection would read:
"to the person by whom the transmission is made if he has responsibility to any extent for its contents".
To achieve that, I beg leave to move the amendment.
Lord Beaverbrook: The noble Lord's amendment would have the effect of blurring the question of who is the maker of a broadcast, and therefore of who is
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responsible for ensuring that consent is obtained from copyright owners for the inclusion of their works in the broadcast. The Bill is at pains to avoid this for the reasons I have given.
The amendment would remove the reference to "the contents of the broadcast" and insert one to "its contents"—that is, the contents of the transmission. I would not go so far as to say that that was positively wrong, but is raises questions which the words "the contents of the broadcast" do not. There is no doubt what the contents of a broadcast are—words, music, other sounds, live pictures, film, computer graphics, and so forth. Are those the contents of the transmission? It is arguable that the contents of the transmission are the broadcast as a whole, not its component parts; and that would lead to the wrong answer to the question of who should be responsible for copyright clearance.
Lord Kilbracken: I must say that I cannot understand the noble Lord's argument. I began by pointing out that under the definition at the beginning of Clause 6 "broadcast" means the transmission. That is the definition. They are the same thing. "Broadcast" means the transmission. Therefore, there cannot be a distinction between them.
Lord Howie of Troon: Surely it is not possible to make a broadcast without transmitting it. Therefore when the clause refers to,
"the person making a broadcast"
that must include the person transmitting it.
Lord Beaverbrook: We feel it is arguable that the contents of the transmission are the broadcast as a whole and not its component parts. That would lead to the wrong answer to the question of who should be responsible for copyright clearance.
Lord Kilbracken: I am completely unconvinced but I do not think I shall divide the Committee. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Cable programmes]:
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 37:
Page 4, line 22, leave out ("or other persons receiving it") and insert ("for conveyance to other persons receiving the service").
The noble Lord said: In Clause 7 we enter a new era because it deals with cable programmes, which were not dealt with in the Copyright Act 1956. My amendment is directed to the important matter of the kind of service which is excluded from the definition of a cable programme service. The first part of Clause 7 defines what is meant by a cable programme service but my amendment is directed to what does not comprise a cable programme service. It appears to me that the draftsman may have got the matter slightly wrong.
The service with which I am now dealing and which is to be excepted has as its essential feature the transfer of material sent for reception by the person providing the service but also material sent to that person for conveyance to other persons receiving the service. It is said that the service comprises a service of material not only to the person providing the service but also to other persons receiving it. That is not so. The service comprises sending material to the person who is supposed to receive it and deal with it in some way or other, but he may be instructed to convey it to other persons. Therefore, the service is not to convey material to other persons receiving it. That is the strictest definition in practice of what this service comprises and it should be excepted from the definition of the cable programme service in Clause 7. I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, has raised an important matter. Drafting in this area is a tricky problem. We have to be careful that in bringing within the definition of a cable programme service activities which clearly should fall within it we do not incidentally bring in activities which should not. Examples are ordinary telephone conversations, teleshopping, telebanking or video conferencing services, all of which are communications of an essentially private kind.
We do not, however, dispute the principle that electronic mail boxes should be excluded from the definition of a cable programme service. The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, may have the effect of excluding electronic mail boxes but it would bring back within the definition ordinary two-way communications between a provider of a service by telephone and a user. If the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment we will have a further look at this question and come back with a government amendment if this proves to be necessary.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: In view of that undertaking, I shall withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Beaverbrook Lord Beaverbrook moved Amendment No. 38:
Page 4, line 33, leave out ("it") and insert ("the system").
The noble Lord said: With the leave of the Committee, I should like to move Amendment No. 38 and speak also to Amendment No. 39. These are drafting amendments and contain no points of substance. They concern the exceptions to the definition of a cable programme service as it applies for the purpose of Part I. The particular exception affected is the one that applies to a system which is purely domestic. It is dealt with in subsection (2), paragraph (c) and is intended to ensure that equipment in the private home, not linked to any outside cable system, does not get caught by the definition. If such a system were within the definition, this would mean that the householder would have to obtain copyright consent to run a video on a simple video recorder/television set combination.
All the amendment does is clarify that the word "it" in lines 33 and 35 applies to the hardware rather than to the "service", which is in any case a rather
868
inappropriate concept in the context of a domestic system. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Elvel: The noble Lord has said that this is a drafting amendment, and indeed it is an amendment of the draft Bill. It does however go a little further than just clarifying the draft because, as he rightly said, it reduces the effect of subsection (2)(c)(i) to the hardware—that is the system—rather than the general service which is run by a single individual.
I do not have any particular problem with this, but I ask the noble Lord whether in the case of the amendment that he is putting forward it is fully understood that "system" refers only to hardware. Having quickly looked through the definitions in the Bill, I do not seem to find that adequately explained, but I may be quite wrong. I should be grateful if the noble Lord can reassure me on that point.
Lord Beaverbrook: If the noble Lord finds it acceptable, I should like to look into that a little more carefully as I do not have an answer now. I shall write to him on that point.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Beaverbrook Lord Beaverbrook moved Amendment No. 39:
Page 4, line 35, leave out ("it") and insert ("the system").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 7, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Willis: I should like to ask the Government to look at one phrase in the Bill, particularly on page 5 line 2, the phrase "run as a business". There is a certain confusion about this; and I think it occurs later in the Bill in Clause 98. What exactly is a public performance? For example, at the moment if you hire a video tape from your local video shop you are not allowed by the process of hiring to show it in a pub to an audience, although we all know that people show it in their homes to audiences.
It is unclear whether this applies to housing blocks or to prisons. For example, if the Government were to privatise prisons and video tapes were then shown to the prisoners, would that be a public performance because the prison was run as a business? I raise the question only because I think the industry needs some kind of clarification on this point, "run as a business". I would urge the Government to look at this before we come to Report stage and Third Reading.
6.45 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before we leave Clause 7, the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, rightly pointed out, as did the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, that we are here on somewhat unfamiliar territory. The question I have about Clause 7 is that relating to what are known as "interactive services". For the benefit of the Committee, I ought to explain that I am a director of a cable company and interactive services are regarded as being the future of many cable services.

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In the new technology you can press buttons on your television set and have a response from the operator or indeed whoever runs the service or other people who can use the service. You can have a sort of correspondence between yourself and those people who, as it were, lurk in a mysterious manner behind the set itself.
I understand that subsection (2)(a) is designed to cover this particular question. The difficulty is that where subsection (2)(a)—and it is not clear from Notes on Clauses whether this is clear—refers to "an essential feature" does this except (that is, remove from copyright) those cable services which have interactive facilities and where those facilities are not necessarily an essential feature but are all part of the same service?
It is rare that you would have at the moment a cable service which is either entirely one, interactive, or entirely the other. In the future you will have services which transmit images broadcast to you in the home and which also can be used as an interactive arrangement. I am worried that the mixed cable programme, as I call it, is not suitably catered for in Clause 7(2)(a) because of the expression "essential feature".
I put this forward asking for guidance from the noble Lord because I have no clear perception of whether the Government have thought this fully through, and if so what the views of the Government are; and I should like to hear them.
Lord Beaverbrook: I should like to take the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, first. Paragraph (a) excepts services where it is an essential feature that in addition to material being sent by the provider of the service the person receiving the service can send material back to him other than signals sent for the operation or control of the service in question. This is the point that we debated on the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran. I think it is better that we consider this further as it is a complicated field. I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing this up. I accept that he has a considerable practical knowledge of this matter and that there are bound to be technical developments in this field over the years that this Act will be in force.
Regarding the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Willis, the Government announced in the White Paper their intention to repeal the provision in Section 48(3)(b) of the 1956 Act. This is an exception which at present excepts from the definition of a cable programme service all cable systems, whether self-contained or connected to other systems, operated by businesses engaged in keeping or letting premises where people reside or sleep as part of the amenities for residents or inmates. Whether that would include prisons (whether public, private, or whatever they may be) I shall have to look into and let the noble Lord know. Paragraph (d) is drafted in such a way that "exception" will no longer have effect where there is a business element in the running of the establishment in question.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I had proposed to intervene, but I did not want to protract matters. I
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support what the noble Lord, Lord Williams, queried. Subsection (3) appears to indicate that this is a complex and difficult field of new technology because the Secretary of State has taken powers
"to add to or remove from the list of excepted cable programme services any description of service"
by order. If the noble Lord is going to explain this more fully to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, I should again be grateful to be on his mailing list.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8 [Published editions]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 40:
Page 5, line 22, after ("dramatic") insert ("artistic").
The noble Lord said: This is a short point. I do not know why the word "artistic" is excluded. As the Minister will be aware, it is included in Section 88 of the Australian Copyright Act. It is intended that, with this amendment, one should speak to Amendment No. 41. I announce my support in advance should the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, move Amendment No. 41.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: I support the amendment. Surely,
"typographical arrangement of a published edition"
may include photographs, graphics drawings and prints. One notes that "artistic" is included in Clause 93, which deals with computer-generated works. I do not understand why it is not included here. If the amendment is accepted, it will cater for Amendment No. 41, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Stockton.
The Earl of Stockton: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, for proposing the amendment standing in my name! I think that this must be an oversight on the part of the Government, one in which they have a vested interest, for both the Stationery Office and the Ordnance Survey claim copyright in maps and the Hydrographer Royal in charts. Perhaps my noble friend can sort out the matter in dispute in this area as Ordnance Survey maps extend down to the low tidemark and the Hydrographer Royal's charts up to the high tidemark. Could it be that this strip of shingle, seaweed and crabs is the source of a great territorial dispute?
More seriously, I contend that the configuration of graphics in a diagram, map, chart or plan must fall within the term "published edition".
Lord Howie of Troon: When we speak of,
"typographical arrangement of a published edition"
presumably we are speaking of a book. Are we by any chance inadvertently speaking also about a newspaper or a magazine.
Lord Beaverbrook: Clause 8 provides definitions relevant to the copyright in a typographical arrangement. It is not our intention that this copyright should be more extensive than under the 1956 Act and we cannot therefore accept this amendment.

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As the term implies, typographical arrangement is about the layout of words or symbols on the printed page. It is therefore restricted to published editions containing literary, dramatic or musical works and does not include artistic works. Of course, a book may include diagrams, maps, charts and plans as well as photographs, but these do not form part of the typographical arrangement. Whereas the publisher makes a contribution in setting up the typographical layout of a literary, dramatic or musical work, he merely reproduces an artistic work. His investment in the layout merits a copyright.
Protection of copies of artistic works appearing in books, on the other hand, must rest solely on the copyright in the original work. That copyright will of course start with the author or his employer, but there is nothing to prevent the publisher from acquiring the copyright by assignment if he is prepared to pay for it and the artist is willing. If my noble friend Lord Stockton is seeking a separate publishers' copyright in respect of diagrams which themselves are out of copyright he is, in effect, asking for that copyright to be revived simply because he republishes it. That proposition has only to be stated for it to be apparent that we could not accept it.
The noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, asked whether there is a copyright in the typographical arrangement of newpapers and magazines. The answer is, yes. The publishers of magazines and newspapers merit this kind of protection as much as publishers of books.
Lord Kilbracken: Does the Minister agree that drawings, photographs and other illustrations are all part of the layout?
Lord Beaverbrook: As I said, the typographical arrangement is about the layout of words or symbols on the printed page. It is therefore restricted to published editions containing literary, dramatic or musical works and does not include artistic works. But of course a book may include diagrams, maps, charts and plans as well as photographs, although these do not form part of the typographical arrangement.
Lord Howie of Troon: I was wondering about the prints that the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne raised earlier under another heading. I know that they are not strictly speaking typographical, but they have something to do with printing. The objects to which he was referring were unquestionably artistic works. Might there not be some sense in including artistic works here on the strength that they must include prints that are printed?
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: Can the Minister explain more fully what he means by
"layout of symbols on the printed page",
which apparently includes literary matters but not artistic matters? I am very confused about this. Symbols on the printed page could equally be drawings, photographs or prints of one kind or another. I do not understand why those are excluded while literary layout is included.
Lord Broxbourne: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, for recalling my references to the matter of prints in the debate on Clause 4 stand part. What he says and the position under this clause reinforce the necessity for clarifying the position on the exclusion of prints. Now that my noble friend has confirmed that there is no statutory definition in the Bill, would it not be better to consider whether such a definition can be introduced between now and Report, thereby reducing the complications of this clause and of Clause 4?
Lord Kilbracken: There seem to be two separate stages involved, according to whether it is words or illustrations. If it is words, the copyright in the words resides with the author. This concerns the way in which the typeface and layout are used. It is quite separate in regard to the typography. A different copyright resides in the typography. The same applies in the case of illustrations. There is only one copyright in the illustration and it belongs to the person who makes the drawing. That also forms part of the layout and as such comes under the copyright regarding the typography. The two are separate.
Lord Denning: The words "published edition" refer back to Clause 1, which says that copyright subsists in,
"the typographical arrangement of published editions".
Thus we are considering the copyright in the typographical arrangement. What the Government are saying at present would appear to be correct in that there are no typographical arrangements in artistic works or other such works.
The Earl of Stockton: I beg to differ with my noble friend the Minister. His comment on maps and charts implied that they are always generated from a third party, who would be the copyright holder. In many cases, particularly in the provision of such material in educational books, they are generated by the publisher of the original work and should attract the same copyright as the rest of the typographical arrangement.
7 p.m.
Lord Willis: I think that we are really making heavy weather of this matter and that we have come back to our old friend "compilation". If a publisher decides to publish a book about, for example, the First World War, he will first commission an author to write the words and that text will be printed. In consultation with the publisher the author may decide that he wants photographs of the First World War which may be in copyright. He may also wish to have maps which have to be designed and drawn by an artist. Copyright for those maps and photographs rests with the people who own the copyright and the publisher will pay for them. If it is a children's book that is being published, it may be decided that illustrations are needed and one applies to an artist who will share in the royalties of that book.
It seems to me that we are making terribly heavy weather of this question. I think that the Government have got it right as it stands and that the contract

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between publisher and author or illustrator will take care of the other problems.
Lord Denning: Let me say just a word or two about compilation and arrangement. The law is and always has been quite clear that there is a separate copyright in regard to compilation and arrangement, simply because some of the pieces that one is compiling may not be the subject of copyright. Some may be out of copyright and some may be in it. It needs a great deal of skill to make an anthology, compilation or arrangement, and there is copyright in the compilation as well as copyright in the original author of the pieces. However, that is merely a sidelight on the law. As I said before, it seems to me that the Government have the right approach.
Lord Morton of Shuna: In alliance with the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, I just do not see the Government's objection to this amendment. For example, the ordnance survey maps have changed in their typographical arrangement over the years since 1856 and there is an interest in that just as there is an interest in anything else. There is a published edition of the ordnance survey maps.
The noble Lord referred to a children's book containing illustrations. I should have thought that when an illustration is put on to a page it affects the typographical arrangement of that page, because words are put beside, underneath, above or on the left or right of that illustration.
If we are so right in our 1956 Act, why is Australia so wrong in their 1968 Act? The noble Lord did not take up the point about Australia. I should like to know where he thinks that the Australians have gone so badly wrong in adding the word "artistic"? What difficulty is there in including the word "artistic" and why does it raise such difficulty?
However, if the noble Lord is not in a position to answer now, perhaps the best solution will be to withdraw Amendment No. 40 at this stage, in the hope that perhaps he can come back with a convincing answer before Report stage.
Lord Beaverbrook: Before the noble Lord sits down, there are two points that I should like to make. Having said that, I am not in a position to answer for the Australian Government but I shall look into the noble Lord's remarks. I do not think that he expects me to comment on the position of copyright in Australia, which is a matter which could lead us into very deep water indeed.
As regards the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hutchinson of Lullington, the layout of letters and other symbols on the page is a typographical arrangement. The words on the page may be a literary work but the protection is not of the work as such. To extend this clause to cover artistic works including prints would lead to extra protection of artistic works.
As regards the point made by my noble friend Lord Stockton, it does not matter if the publisher is also the first owner of copyright in an artistic work. He will enjoy that copyright not as a publisher but as the
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owner of copyright in the artistic work. In my view the noble Lord, Lord Willis, understood that perfectly.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Before withdrawing the amendment, I should like to say that we are trying to legislate in copyright in order to comply with conventions. If conventions are accepted by countries such as Australia and such countries view things differently, it does not seem to me to be an adequate answer to say that one will not look at Australia. When other countries in the English speaking world take a different view of the conventions, we should not be so proud; we should at least be clear why we take a different view. I hope that the noble Lord will return with an answer before Report stage but at this time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 41 not moved.]
Clause 8 agreed to.
Viscount Davidson: Before moving that the House do resume, perhaps I may suggest that we return to the Committee stage of this Bill at ten minutes past eight o'clock. I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Merchant Shipping (Passenger Ship Construction) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 1987
7.5 p.m.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Merchant Shipping (Passenger Ship Construction (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 1987, that were laid before the House on 6th November 1987, be approved.
These regulations, made under Section 21 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1979 as modified by Section 11(1) of the Safety at Sea Act 1986, will apply certain safety requirements to non-United Kingdom roll-on/roll-off pasenger ships from 1st March 1988 while they are in United Kingdom ports. The requirements are identical to those applied to United Kingdom registered ships by the Merchant Shipping (Passenger Ship Construction) (Amendment) Regulations 1987, Statutory Instrument 1987 No. 1886, which were also laid before Parliament on 6th November 1987 under the negative resolution procedure and which come into effect on 1st January. I shall say more later about the reasons for affirmative and negative procedures, but first I should explain the background and the substance.
Your Lordships will recall that during our debate on the Merchant Shipping Bill on 10th November, I referred to the substantial number of measures that the Government intend to introduce to implement the recommendations of the report of the court of formal investigation that examined the circumstances attending the tragic capsize of the "Herald of Free Enterprise". The regulations before us today, in

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association with those to which I have just referred which apply to UK-registered ro/ro passenger ships, are the first of a series of statutory instruments which the Government have in preparation to give effect to the court's recommendations. Others, to name just a few, are measures to require the installation of draught gauges, the introduction of boarding cards, and making it mandatory to close the main vehicle deck doors before leaving the berth or as soon as it is physically possible thereafter. Those and others are being prepared as quickly as possible having regard to proper and necessary consultation to ensure that the measures taken to improve the safety of ro/ro passenger ships are appropriate and will be effective.
The effect of the regulations now before the House will be to require the installation of certain items of equipment upon which the report of the court recommended that immediate action should be taken. Your Lordships will recall that the primary cause of the loss of the "Herald of Free Enterprise" was the ingress of water on to the vehicle deck through open bow doors. To assist in preventing a recurrence of such an event, the regulations call for an indicator light system to be installed on the doors and on all other closing devices in the superstructure which, if left open, could lead to major flooding of the vehicle deck. The system would provide indication on the navigating bridge showing when the doors are open and when they are closed and secure. In addition, facilities to monitor the vehicle loading doors by television from a position at the navigating bridge will be required.
A particularly harrowing aspect of the "Herald of Free Enterprise" incident was the conditions inside the ship after the capsize, the passengers' difficulties being exacerbated by the absence of light from the emergency lighting system which, as is normal, was only required to operate at angles of list up to 22½ degrees. The regulations will require the installation of supplementary emergency lighting that will operate at angles of list up to 90 degrees in all public passenger spaces and alleyways. The lighting will be self-contained with accumulator batteries within each fitting so that illumination of escape routes will be provided for at least three hours. Similar lighting with, in This case, the option of rechargeable battery-operated handlamps will be required in the crew spaces.
The last item of equipment that these regulations require is again a television surveillance system or its equivalent but, in this case, of the entire vehicle space. This was proposed to ferry operators in statutory consultation as a valuable addition to safety precautions as recommended in the report of court. The advice received from industry coupled with the results of an investigation made by my department led to the conclusion that effective television surveillance was impracticable on many ships, particularly when highsided freight vehicles were loaded. There is simply not a clear line of sight across the vehicle deck. The regulations therefore permit the operator an alternative, which is to maintain continuous patrols of the vehicle spaces whilst the ship is on voyage.
Finally, I come to the legal background. Statutory Instrument 1987 No. 1886, the negative order
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applying to UK ships, took effect by amending the voluminous 1980 and 1984 regulations on the construction of passenger ships, whose full titles are given in the explanatory note. The 1984 regulations impose, in certain respects, higher standards than the 1980 regulations, reflecting more recent amendments to the Safety of Life at Sea Convention, and apply to new ships. The 1980 Regulations apply to other ships. SI 1987 No. 1886 made identical amendments to the two sets of regulations in respect of the new equipment I have just described, but only in respect of UK ships.
The instrument now before the House extends those amendments to foreign ships, and is required to be made by affirmative procedure by the terms of Section 21(1) of the 1979 Merchant Shipping Act, the enabling power, and by Section 49 of that Act which sets out the parliamentary procedures for Section 21 orders; modified in both cases by Section 11 of the 1986 Safety at Sea Act. In summary, the requirement of the enabling legislation is that orders applying to foreign ships must be made by affirmative procedure unless the requirements are the subject of an international agreement.
Your Lordships will be aware that the normal procedure for improving the safety of ships plying internationally is to submit proposals to the International Maritime Organisation. With this in view, the United Kingdom during October urgently communicated proposals to the secretary general of the IMO that are essentially the same in content as the draft regulations before us today. These proposals will be considered for adoption as amendments to the Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974 (SOLAS '74) by the Maritime Safety Committee during April 1988. The UK Government have offered to cover the cost of two additional days of that meeting to enable a decision on our proposals to be reached. Pending such agreement however, it is necessary for any UK action to be by the affirmative procedure. We have also offered to pay for a week's consideration of our further proposals by the appropriate subcommittee.
Your Lordships will no doubt observe that, for similar reasons, the other measures that the Government plan to take will also have, in relation to foreign ships, to be made by the affirmative procedure. For the convenience of the House, it will be the Government's intention where possible to group such affirmative measures so that a number or more may be considered simultaneously.
In making the present regulations, we will be enhancing the safety of foreign roll-on/roll-off passenger ships which visit our ports and the persons on those ships, many of whom are Her Majesty's subjects. I commend these measures to your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 9th November be approved. [6th Report from the Joint Committee.]—(Lord Brabazon of Tara.)
7.15 p.m.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the regulations. We welcome the action taken by the Government both in the original

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regulations and in these regulations applying now to non-UK ships. I am delighted to learn what the Minister has said about action to be taken with the International Maritime Organisation. We welcome that because it must not be overlooked that there have been some ferry tragedies in overseas countries as well as our own disaster at Zeebrugge.
I do not want to nit-pick, but I am very interested in what the Minister has said about the need for affirmative resolutions as against the negative procedure for others. In the light of our discussions last Thursday on the Merchant Shipping Bill, I shall look very carefully to see whether or not some of those might not have been covered by the affirmative resolutions, if we so pressed it. Otherwise we welcome the new regulations applying to non-UK ships.
I wonder whether the Minister could explain the question of dates? There must be a good explanation. So far as I can understand it, the dates when the No. 1886 regulations come into effect for the access door indicator lights and the TV surveillance system are 1st January 1988 and for the supplementary emergency lighting it is 31st July 1988. However, when I read the memorandum on the regulations before us tonight I see Item 1 of the regulations, states,
"These regulations may be cited as … and shall come into force on 1st March 1988".
That would imply, from my elementary way of looking at it, that the supplementary emergency lighting for non-UK ships will come into operation on 1st March, whereas the original regulation, (which so far as I can see has not been changed) for the UK ships, will not come into operation until 31st July. Is there some explanation for this? Having put those two points, we welcome these regulations most wholeheartedly.
Lord Greenway: My Lords, I also welcome the regulations. It seems to me to be only right that the same things that apply to our ferries should apply to those foreign ferries which regularly operate from our ports. I take it that this is meant to refer only to those regular ferries that operate to the Continental ports. I wonder whether the Minister can tell me what would be the position until such time as a general ruling is given by IMO were a ro-ro passenger ship to visit one of our ports either on a one-off cruise or perhaps with a floating exhibition. This is something that takes place from time to time.
I particularly welcome the fact that the indicating systems apply to all access doors and not just the bow or stern doors through which vehicles drive on or off. It is just as important, with these types of ro-ro vessels, for all doors to be treated in this way because even the leaving open of a comparatively small door in the hull can indeed produce the same sort of tragic results as we witnessed recently.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I am grateful for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. and the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, on this order. It is, as I said, the first of several which will come before your Lordships over a period of time covering the
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measures which we have undertaken in the light of the Zeebrugge disaster.
With regard to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, about IMO, of course we would very much rather have proceeded through the usual channels and done everything through IMO. However, in this case we felt that because the cross-Channel routes were so busy and such a large number of people used them, we had to proceed unilaterally. As I have said, we very much hope that the IMO will adopt our measures next year. We have offered, as I say, to pay for extra consideration for that purpose.
The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, asked me about the dates of applications. The explanation is that the order that is now before the House has the effect of extending the amendments already made by negative order to the 1980 and 1984 regulations, so that from 1st March they apply also to non-UK ships. The result of that is that from 1st March all the measures in the 1980 and 1984 regulations that are already in force (including the requirement for indicator lights and TV introduced on 1st January 1988) apply immediately to foreign vessels. The emergency lighting amendment which applies from 31st July 1988 is also extended to apply to foreign vessels and therefore applies to them as soon as it applies to UK vessels; in other words, not until 31st July. I hope that that explains that point.
The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, asked about a ro-ro ship not on a regular passenger service visiting this country. This order only applies to passenger services. It would not apply to a ro-ro which, for instance, was driven here by adverse weather or for some other reason. It applies only to regular passenger services. As regards doors other than vehicle doors, yes, these regulations refer to closing devices—a term which includes hatches, weathertight ramps and other potential sources of major flooding.
Viscount Simon: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I do not quite understand how one can have regulations which apply only to regular services. Surely the regulations must apply to any passenger-carrying ro-ro vessel even if it comes here only once in its life.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, it is my understanding that it would only apply on passenger services. If the vessel came here on a passenger service it would apply, but if it came here for another reason, such as was outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, then it would not.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, before the noble Lord the Minister sits down, the point that the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, raised is very important. The regulations refer to ro-ro passenger ships
"while they are within a port in the United Kingdom".
There is no qualifying statement there about services and so on.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I can say that it applies on all passenger services. It applies also to irregular services, but not if the ship is used for

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another purpose, such as the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, said, when passengers are not carried.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until ten past eight.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.22 to 8.10 p.m.]

Copyright, Designs and Patents Bill [H.L.]
House again in Committee.
Clause 9 [Authorship of work]:
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 42:
Page 5, line 40, at end insert—
("( ) in the case of a photograph, the photographer;").
The noble Lord said: This amendment seeks to write into the Bill the fact that in the case of a photograph the creator of the work is the photographer. Members of the Committee have been busily announcing their interests in this Bill. I have not done so today because I already did that on Second Reading. However, I repeat that my interests are those of having been a writer whether in journalism or books for the past 40 years. I have also been a photographer.
I became a photographer because the cameraman did not turn up when I was on a particular assignment and I borrowed a Leica. The pictures that I took appeared on the front page of the Daily Mail. That occurred because I had just had a row with the Daily Express. I made so much more from the photographs than from the articles I wrote that I subsequently took a camera around with me wherever I went on foreign assignments.
Clause 9 commences with the words:
"'author', in relation to a work".
That means the person who creates it. The clause continues in subsection (2) to define who the person who creates a work is in those cases, I suppose, where that may be in doubt. It tells us who the author is in the case of a sound recording, a film or a broadcast, but not in any other cases. We are not told, for instance, who the author of a book or a painting is. I agree that in the case of a book or a painting we are fairly clear about who the author is, but the case of a photograph is different.
I wish to draw attention to the rather strange situation that exists in that case, which is different from any other case. If one takes a book, the copyright resides in the manuscript that the author produces, whether it is a handwritten manuscript, a typewritten manuscript, whether it is fed into a computer, or in whichever manner it is produced. That is the physical object through which the copyright is created as soon as it has been copied.
As regards an oil painting, that object which the author has created is the object in which the copyright resides. But the case of a photograph is quite different. I am not at all sure that it is clear—in fact, I am sure that it is not—in precisely who as the creator the copyright resides. After all, when a photographer takes a photograph all he does is activate the shutter. He allows life to enter and reach the emulsion. Very often, particularly if he is a foreign correspondent or if he is working under pressure for an evening newspaper or something of that kind, he sends the undeveloped film off to his newspaper. Someone goes to the darkroom with it and at that point no picture exists. Even if he goes to the darkroom and develops the film himself all he produces is a negative which is by definition the exact opposite of the print which will appear in the paper.
In any case, no picture is in existence at the time the photographer takes it. Then the picture is developed, a print is made, and I suppose the copyright comes into existence and is created as soon as that first print comes out of the tray in the darkroom. That makes it a quite different property from anything else.
It could be said that a photograph is created by the man in the darkroom when he develops it. Then it is printed; then it is decided to use this or that part of it. Various experiments are tried out with different papers, and so on. All the time the photographer may be in the middle of the Gobi Desert or at any rate not in the darkroom. I feel that the question of who is the creator of a photograph is something that should be dealt with in the Bill. The creator of a photograph should be the photographer. We all understand perfectly well what is meant by the photographer.
That would in principle mean that the copyright belonged to the photographer. That is not the case at present. It is a very curious fact that under the 1956 Act—the current Act—the copyright belongs to the person who paid for the film that the photographer is using. That is the most extraordinary provision. That means that the copyright belongs to the person who owns the film that is being used by the cameraman in question. That means that if I am tearing off to Yemen, for example, and I ask my brother to buy a film for me and he, having bought the film, says "Here you are. Off you go", he is the person who owns the film and he is the person who has the copyright of the pictures that I take. That may be a ridiculous example but I think it would be the case. That situation seems to me to be complete nonsense.
It is not clear from the Bill as it is drafted at present that the copyright resides in the man who takes the picture and who exposes the emulsion to the light. There should be a provision in the Bill which could be made simply by the inclusion of one line in this part of the Bill to state that in the case of a photograph the creator is the photographer. That is what I am proposing. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Hayter): I think that there must be a misprint on the Marshalled List. The wording should be:
"Or in the case of a photograph, the photographer".
Lord Kilbracken: No, that is not so. If the amendment were accepted, subsection (2) would say:
"That person shall be taken to be—in the case of a photograph, the photographer … in the case of a sound recording"
someone else.
Lord Brain: I have every sympathy with the amendment and I think it is right that the person who exposes the negative should have prior rights to the use of that negative. However, the words which have just been used by the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, lead to some difficulties. He used the words "exposes the emulsion". When I print from a negative onto a print, I am exposing an emulsion. The idea that the person who takes the photograph should have rights to the use of that negative is very important. However, I wonder whether the wording which the noble Lord has used is the right answer. There are many occasions when photographers create pictures from negatives in the way they print them. That may cause further confusion. I support the idea behind the amendment. I am not sure that the means of getting there are right.
Lord Kilbracken: Before the noble Lord sits down, let me say that when I referred in my remarks to the exposure of the emulsion to light and so on. I was giving what was probably an inaccurate or inadequate version of what happened. Those words would not appear on the Bill. All that appears in the Bill is that the photographer creates the photograph.
Lord Brain: I am grateful to the noble Lord. However. I still think that we may end up by having to define the word "photographer".
Lord Ardwick: I wish to declare an interest. I am a life member of the National Union of Journalists, which has many thousands of photographers, both freelance and staff, among its membership. I wish to support my noble friend very strongly. His argument may have a weak spot, as has been pointed out. However, I am wholly in accord with the sentiments and feeling behind the amendment. The photographer is the man at the sharp end; he is the man who creates the picture, who gets praised when it is good and who gets fired when it is bad; he is the man who risks his life. He should be identified as the author of the photograph.
Lord Greenway: I also declare an interest in that I still receive a considerable part of my earnings from photography. There is a difficulty here. The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, mentioned previous legislation whereby the rights were held by the person supplying the film. As a photographer, I sometimes ask another photographer to take a picture for me when he is abroad, for example, and I supply film for that purpose. How will that lie under the present amendment?
Lord Willis: I believe that we have returned to the question of contracting. If you ask another photographer to take a picture for you, you have a
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contract with him in one way or another. That contract may or may not imply certain rights.
The important and difficult thing is to keep the Bill simple. We have been at it for only three hours, and I feel we are going to produce a dromedary with three or four humps. Put simply, the man who actually takes the picture is the man who creates the picture. I do not care who manufactures the film, produces the negative, or whatever. The photographer is the man who creates it. If you commission a photographer to take a picture, you must make a contract with him. You decide what the contract will be. It is simple: the man who takes the picture is the creative artist and he is the man who must be recognised in the Bill.
Lord Howie of Troon: When the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and I discussed this matter briefly earlier today, he said he thought that we were producing a camel. He has now said that we are producing a dromedary. Perhaps it will be the Loch Ness monster with even more humps before the night is over!
I do not think the matter is quite as simple as the noble Lord says it is. The matter can be simplified and brought down to the rudimentary notion that the man who takes the picture is the whole story. However, he is not. We shall be considering that matter in looking at later clauses in the Bill.
Where we are talking about a simple situation where a photographer is commissioned and has contracted, the matter is quite simple. To that extent, I agree with the noble Lord. Lord Willis. However, that is not always the situation. Quite often the photographer will be a staff man who is employed by a magazine or newspaper or other organisation. He will be sent on assignment to take photographs. He is not commissioned; those are part of his general duties. He owes a responsibility to his employer, who has supplied him with the wherewithal to pursue his calling as a photographer, including film.
The employer may well have set up the assignment, which he himself was unable to do. The employer has in all probability given the photographer his bus or airline ticket or his taxi fare. He may have provided subsistence over and above the photographer's salary. When a man is commissioned, there is a clear case. When the photographer or other journalist is a staff employee, the situation is more complicated.
Finally, I too am a member of the National Union of Journalists—until it hears of this speech!
Lord Lloyd of Hampstead: I think we are losing sight of the issue under this provision. We are only considering who the author is. Surely it is as plain as plain can be that the man who is the author of a photograph is the man who has taken it—the photographer. That has no immediate consequences so far as copyright is concerned; that is a rather different question which we shall be discussing at a later stage. However, from the point of view of authorship, I should have thought, with respect, that it is perfectly plain that the photographer is the man who is the author of the picture. He is the person who

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ought to be treated as the author for the purpose of the Bill. He is in the same position as a man who writes a book or paints a picture.
Lord Beaverbrook: The effect of this amendment would be to provide that the photographer is the author of a photograph. As the Bill is drafted, the question of authorship of photographs is dealt with by the general proposition in subsection (1) of Clause 9. In other words, the person who creates a photograph is the author, just as the person who creates a literary work is the author of that work.
The view has been expressed that creation is an imprecise concept and that in the context of photography a person who develops and fixes a photograph could be said to create it. I do not accept that merely mechanical acts of this kind amount to acts of creation in the sense that would be understood here, any more than a secretary can be said to create the literary work dictated to her. In the vast majority of cases the person who operates the camera will be the person who creates the photograph and no other person will make a creative contribution to it.
But this is not a good reason for adopting the apparently simple formulation of this amendment. In certain cases someone other than the person who operates the camera will make a substantial creative contribution to the final image—perhaps in the darkroom, perhaps in composing the picture through the viewfinder without actually pressing the button—and it would not be right to deny him a copyright in it on the grounds that he was not the actual photographer.
We therefore believe that the drafting of the Bill should stand unamended. Under it, there will be no doubt that the photographer owns copyright in his photographs in virtually all situations but there is sufficient flexibility to deal with the special cases when some other creative person deserves the copyright or a share in it.
The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, mentioned the point in time at which a photograph is created. It is not correct that no photograph is created until it is developed and printed. It is created immediately upon exposure. The fact that it cannot be seen or appreciated until it is printed is irrelevant. That is similar to the point raised in Amendment No. 9 on Clause 3, when we considered the inclusion of a reference to a recognisable form. Recognition is irrelevant to the subsistence of copyright. The existence of the work, recognisable or not, is what matters.
8.30 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Are we to understand from the response of the noble Lord that the question of who creates a photograph is a matter for the courts in the future? There is a certain confusion in what he said that input could come from the photographer or it could come from other people. Is that something which is going to be decided by the courts, and are we content to leave the Bill open as drafted?
Lord Beaverbrook: The point that I am making is that there may be more than one contributor to the creative element of the photograph. That would be a matter of discovery of those facts. For instance, a professional photographer may arrange the layout of the things or people being photographed. He may set up the position of the camera and he may arrange the set and the props. At the end of all that his assistant may actually press the button. Are we to say that the professional photographer who employs that assistant does not have any ownership in the copyright?
Lord Williams of Elvel: Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a further question. Supposing a photographer is taking a photograph of a model. The model is sitting there and the photographer presses the button, having arranged the lights and all the rest of it. Is it to be said that the model is somebody who has a part in the creation of the photograph?
Lord Beaverbrook: As I understand it, that would not he the case.
Lord Lloyd of Hampstead: In the case which the Minister has adumbrated for us, the only question is who is the photographer? Is it the man who has organised the session or is it the assistant who just mechanically presses the button when he receives a direction? I think that the court would have no difficulty in a case of that sort in saying that the photographer was the man who was functionally organising the whole operation. I do not believe that that is a case which would create any problem.
Lord Kilbracken: That is precisely the point that I was going to make. My amendment does not say that the creator is the person who pressed the button as it seems to be thought. It says that the creator is the photographer. Therefore it has to be decided, if there is any doubt about it, who in any particular case is the photographer. In a case such as this where there is an assistant who exposes the film, that does not affect the fact that the photographer is the creator.
I find myself on my feet and perhaps I may continue with one or two remarks in reply to what has been said. Firstly, like my noble friends Lord Ardwick and Lord Howie, I, too, am a member of the NUJ, which is a further interest I have to declare.
The photographer can make any arrangements he wishes with his employer, with the person who commissions the photograph or whoever it may he, about who is going to be the second owner of the copyright. He will be the first under the copyright. He will be taking the picture and he will negotiate suitable terms with the person who commissioned it or the person who is employing him or whoever it may be. In the case of a staff photographer that will he in his terms of employment. I do not feel that is an important consideration.
The Minister has said that in practically every case it will be the photographer who is the creator. That does not give me much consolation because sometimes we have a feeling in this House that

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because a Minister has said something at Committee stage, that is something we can rely upon or the photographer can rely upon if a dispute arises. It may be said, for example, that when this came up at Committee stage in the House of Lords the Minister said so and so. That is something which never happens at all. What is said tonight is something of great interest to us and we shall all read it tomorrow or next week and then it will be completely forgotten about. The kind of undertaking which has been given by the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, is of very little consolation at all.
Then the Minister continued by saying that there could be exceptions. He said that there might be cases where, for example, I take a picture out in Mozambique or somewhere. I am the person who gets the picture, and I am the person who should be paid because I have gone out there and I have got the picture.
However, we are told that there may be cases where the creator is going to be the technician in the dark room. He may improve my picture, particularly if it is a colour picture. We have been talking about black and white pictures all the time. With colour pictures there is not a negative because we are always working from transparencies, and the technician in the dark room can do a great deal to improve the picture. He can improve the colour; he can make it less blue or less yellow, and he can make it more red. The technician in the dark room can do a great deal to improve the picture or sometimes even to "disimprove" the picture.
The noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, has indicated that in such cases it may be that the creator or the author of the picture is the dark room technician. I do not agree with that. The dark room technician is probably a very good man. He may do a great job on the pictures which come to him. He is paid to do that. But he is not the author or the creator of the picture, and he is not entitled to any share in the copyright.
The point that I am trying to make is that in every case it is the photographer who should have the copyright in the photograph. It is perfectly simple and the language is absolutely clear. I maintain that the facts which have been revealed show there can he a doubt as to who is the owner of the copyright in a photograph. There is a doubt and there should not be one. The way to remove the doubt is to accept my amendment and to say quite simply "The creator of a photograph is the photographer." What could be simpler than that? That is what I ask Members of the Committee to say.
Lord Beaverbrook: There is not much more that I can say except to answer the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Hampstead. There are cases where a creative contribution may be made by someone who does not operate the camera, as I have already said. It may be somebody who does not take responsibility for the composition of the photograph. Creative dark room techniques may be used after an initial exposure and the person applying those techniques may or may not be the same person as the camera operator.
Lord Morton of Shuna: The difficulty is that as regards the courts we cannot refer to anything which is said in discussion on the Bill. The court will interpret the Bill as the Act which is finally passed. Nothing which is said here helps in that sense. There is something to be said for an amendment which just puts it onto somebody in particular and then leaves it to the contract to put it onto somebody else.
Lord Ardwick: Although the dark room lad does something with the picture, and the picture editor does something with the picture, nevertheless the man who takes the picture is the photographer. There are famous photographers, but there are no famous dark room chaps. There are no famous picture editors. There are great photographers such as Kent Gavin of the Daily Mirror. Wherever they go in the world they send back the most wonderful and distinctive pictures which are a cut above the rest. Surely, such people deserve, for their individuality, to be credited as the authors of the pictures.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: We are beating the air. I am absolutely with the Government and the noble Lord, Lord Willis. Should we not all be happy that at long last, in this Bill, the photographer is put in exactly the same position as other artists? That is the great thing about this Bill. In Clause 9(1) the photographer is covered. For the first time he is in the same position as other creative artists. That is the whole essence of the Bill. The photograph that he takes no longer belongs to somebody else; it belongs to him. He is in exactly the same position as other artists.
If there are all these problems about people in darkrooms and so on, the same problem applies to all other artists. One has to apply contract to the matter. That is perfectly straightforward and I think that we should all be very happy about it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Willis, that everybody is making very complex something which is straightforward.
Lord Kilbracken: I do not agree. I do not believe that it does apply to other authors. For example, in the case of a writer, it is perfectly clear that the author is the person who produces that manuscript. That is what the copyright is for. With a photograph. it is not 100 per cent. clear; I believe it should be. I appreciate the support I have received from other Members of the Committee. I do not want meekly to withdraw the amendment. Therefore, although I will not divide the Committee, I do not intend to withdraw the amendment.
On Question, amendment negatived.
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 43:
Page 5, line 31, leave out from ("person") to end of line 33 and insert ("who commissions that recording and pays or agrees to pay for it in money or money's worth and the recording is made in pursuance of that commission, or in the case of a film the director of the film and the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the making of the film are undertaken;).
The noble Lord said: The wording of the amendment is rather long and complicated but

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essentially it is simple. I believe that it contains certain points of principle which I wish the Government to note. The first concerns commissions: who actually commissions a work of copyright which is under copyright protection; and what his rights are. In paragraph 9 of Schedule 1—before the Government amended Schedule 1—the transitional provisions—the rights of somebody who commissions a portrait—are withdrawn. There is nothing in the Bill which says that those rights should continue. Indeed, the Government appear to reverse certain provisions in previous copyright legislation. It seems to us that anybody who commissions a portrait, or commissions something and pays money for it, should have the right to say what should be done with it. That seems to me to be a very fundamental, essential, commercial, economic and, indeed, moral right.
The second point of the amendment concerns directors of films. As I interpret Clause 9—an extremely important clause concerning the authorship and ownership of copyright—the director of a film has no right in the Bill as drafted to copyright protection. The person who has a right is,
"the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the making of the recording or film are undertaken"
As I understand it, and indeed as my advisers understand it, the Bill is giving copyright protection to the producer but not to the director of the film. It is only right to say that, in almost every film that Members of the Committee have seen, they will probably remember the director more than the producer. For example, who would remember the producer of "Stage Coach"? We all remember that John Ford was the director, but we do not know who the producer was. I could go through a number of films where the director has been the essential creator of the work. What we propose is that the director—in many ways the person with whom the film is associated—should at least have some protection, if only joint protection, with the producer, over the copyright in the film.
This amendment covers two points, both slightly complicated but both, in essence, very simple. I beg to move.
Lord Willis: I am sorry to differ from my noble friend on the Front Bench, but I think he has misunderstood the process of film creation. Film creation begins with the writer. Somebody comes along and commissions a script. In my time I have been commissioned on 30 film scripts. On other scripts I have written speculatively. However, the fact is that the essence of the film begins with the writer. The producer is a man who has vision, as did Richard Attenborough with "Cry Freedom". He got the whole thing together, with the writer, and so on. To single out the director, as this amendment does, is a fundamental error. Film making is essentially a collaborative and collective effort, rather like in the theatre. However, if you search for the wellspring, it is the creative writer.
We shall be moving to Clause 11 and to other aspects of ownership of copyright; who is the
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employee and who is not. I do not want to discuss that area until we come to it. Fundamentally, I am against this amendment because it singles out one member of the creative process—a very important member but not the essential one. Obviously, I have a vested interest. But, essentially, the process begins with the writer. You cannot name any film that has ever been made which has not been based on the creative juices of a writer. That is why I oppose the amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Does not the noble Lord, Lord Willis, understand that the writer has a copyright in the filmscript? The difficulty about the present position of the director is that, as director, he has no specific rights in the film.
Lord Willis: The present position is that the writer does not have a copyright in the script. I have about 25 films which are being shown on television at regular intervals from which I do not receive a penny because they were bought out by my employer.
Lord Morton of Shuna: That is a matter of contract. If they have been bought out, they have been bought out by contract. The script takes copyright with it and unless it is bought out the copyright is in the script, as I understand the position.
Lord Willis: What the noble Lord does not understand is that when one is a young writer one is screwed into the ground. One cannot argue.
Lord Kilbracken: The same applies even when one is an old writer.
Lord Lloyd of Hampstead: I should not like in any way to diminish the immense contribution that my noble friend Lord Willis has made to many films or depreciate his creative role. Although I agree with him, I feel considerable sympathy for the amendment because, in a sense, the film director is regarded as a kind of author of the film. The French use the word "auteur" to indicate the director's role. I think the amendment falls down because first, when one looks at what my noble friend has said about the realities of film making, it is not a practical proposition. It is inconceivable that a film could be made where the ownership of the copyright is not settled beforehand. It is an essential part of the process. It is not necessary to go into this kind of refinement because it will not do anyone any good.
Secondly, the Bill follows the pattern of the 1956 Act by giving ownership, in the first instance, to the producer as the man who has brought the whole thing together, and directly or through distributors or other finance has been able to organise the film. On the whole, that formula has worked reasonably well. I have never heard anyone complain bitterly that the provisions of the 1956 Act gave that initial right to the producer rather than to the director. Although I feel great sympathy for the viewpoint which holds,

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"After all, the director should receive his recognition under the Bill", in practice, that is not a serious issue. It would be better to leave the matter as it has stood for many years in the 1956 Act.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Hampstead. I find this amendment retrograde. It provides that he:
"who commissions that recording and pays or agrees to pay for it"
shall be the person who has the copyright. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, said that he who commissions the work should have the right to say what happens to it. I find that a retrograde principle having regard to the Bill which at last gives the copyright to the artist and not to the person who commissions the work. To try to incorporate that phrase into this clause is the most retrograde step.
Lord Kilbracken: We come to moral rights later in the Bill. It is right that the director should be given the moral right to be identified as the director and not to have his work unnecessarily adapted. With that I agree. I do not see that the director of a motion picture should have any automatic, special right to the copyright in that motion picture. He is hired to direct the movie. Of course his work is of immense importance. Everyone who has been on the set while a film is being made knows how important is the director. I had the great privilege of working for two months with John Houston when he was making "Moby Dick". I think that he made a total hash of the film, but his work shone through the whole of it. He influenced the entire making of the film.
Of course the director is the most important person, but he is not entitled to an automatic copyright in the film. He can negotiate that when he is hired to direct. He can say, "Yes, I will direct the picture, but how much will I get? What percentage of the box office will I receive?" He is paid his salary, fee or share of the box office as director of the picture. It is not a question of copyright. He should be credited for what he does, but not on the basis of copyright. I do not know why a director is included in the Bill.
Lord Auckland: As a consumer of films, particularly of films of the 1930s and 1940s, this amendment strikes me as having some relevance. Let us suppose, as does happen, a director has a row with the author of the film and another director is appointed. In such cases, who then, under the Bill, is involved in the copyright? If a director who has directed part of the film dies or has a row with the author, surely an important legal problem crops up.
Lord Morton of Shuna: The point of the amendment, if I understand it aright—I hope that I do because it is in my name—is to identify who is involved. In Clause 9(2)(a) we are dealing with:
"in the case of a sound recording or film, the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the making of the recording or film are undertaken"
Who is that in relation to a film such as "Moby Dick"? Who is the one person who makes those
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arrangements? It is unclear. Is it the producer, the director or the film company; for example Warner Bros.? All the amendment seeks to do is to identify someone. It is easy to take that person out, if necessary, by contract, hut, as it is, the wording of the Bill is unclear.
Lord Beaverbrook: As the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, has explained, the amendment deals with the authorship of sound recordings and films. Its effect so far as sound recordings are concerned would be to provide that someone who commissions and pays for the making of a sound recording should have the copyright. It would also leave undefined who is the copyright owner when there is no commission, but I am sure that this is an unintended effect.
We feel that it is unnecessary to deal with commissioned recordings in this way. It was necessary to have such a provision in the existing Act because under that Act copyright belongs to the person owning the tape at the time the recording is made. However, the Bill deals with copyright in sound recordings in the same way that the present law treats films; namely, that the first owner is the person who makes the necessary arrangements for the recording.
This approach works satisfactorily for films and we believe will do so for sound recordings. It largely sweeps up the question of commissions since record companies commissioning independent recording studios will be the body making the necessary arrangements, not the studios. We therefore feel that the Bill should remain as drafted in this respect.
The second effect of the amendment is to give film directors a joint copyright with the film maker. We do not think that that would be right. As the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, said, the Government have recognised that film directors have a special interest in their films by providing later in the Bill that they shall have moral rights in those films. To go further than that and to give the director a copyright in the film would not be fair to the person who has made and paid for the arrangements for the film production. In making those arrangements he will of course have negotiated appropriate remuneration for the director. It would be wrong for the director to be able to claim additional remuneration on the basis of his copyright.
9 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response, and to the noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am bound to say that I am not wholly convinced by arguments adduced by the noble Lord. I do not believe what we are suggesting here is particularly retrograde, if I can quote a noble Lord from the Benches on my right. I think it is a fairly sensible suggestion, because I do believe there are very complicated issues involved which cannot be just dismissed by statements of: "it is all wrong".

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However, it is getting late and we want to get on with the Bill. I do not propose to press this, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No.44:
Page 5, line 41, leave out ("publisher") and insert ("designer of the typographical arrangement")
The noble Lord said: In this case the purpose of the amendment is quite straightforward. It is to put in, instead of the publisher, the designer of the typographical arrangement. To allow this amendment would mean that the author would be the person who created the work; and of course publishers would be able, in the case of contracts of either employment or of services, to include in their contract that they would take the copyright in whatever their servant or agent took. But it is appropriate, we consider, that the actual creator should have the primary right, and the employer (who is in the position of power from the point of view of any contract for the work to be done) should be the person who insists or can insist that the right should be transferred to him. I beg to move.
The Earl of Stockton: It will come as no surprise to my noble friend that I am in support of him and not in support of the noble Lord, Lord Morton. In the case of the publisher as opposed to the designer of typographical arrangement we are of course referring primarily to the question of the person employed in the publishing house. Clearly, it is of paramount importance that the copyright in work produced within a publishing house remains with the employer. For example, I have the honour to have published a number of novels by the noble Lord, Lord Willis. Obviously, the copyright in his manuscript is his. However, it has been the occasion that my noble friend Lord Hardinge has been employed by me to write what is called the "blurb" on the inside of the jacket. It has also been the occasion that I have found Lord Hardinge's praise of Lord Willis' skills and acumen insufficiently adulatory. I have chosen to amend it. This amendment would—
Lord Willis: I always write my own "blurbs".
The Earl of Stockton: Very wise! But hypothetically this amendment would imply that the copyright in the "blurb" would he vested simultaneously in my noble friend Lord Hardinge and in me, and in the publishing company, which is clearly an absurd situation.
Lord Hardinge of Penshurst: Is this not an amendment that is basically embraced by Clause 11, which we are to debate shortly?
Lord Howie of Troon: For that reason we should not pass the amendment in a hurry. We are talking
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about authorship rather than copyright just at the moment, and the difficulty here in the case of magazines with which I am primarily concerned, is that of identifying who is the author of the typographical work.
In general terms, a magazine page is laid out against a design which has been obtained by the publisher from a designer at some stage as a generalised guide which the art editor or the subeditor or other editors will use in producing the final visual effect. So we already have the problem of the original designer, the immediate art editor or production editor or whatever he cares to call himself.
As I have already said today, the typesetter must play some part in this process, and so must ultimately the printer. The chain of authorship here is to me far too complex and far too confused for us to say that there is a single designer who can be identified as the man who should be the author. It seems that this is a case where the Government have got it right in the words used in the discussion on the last amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook: the publisher is the man who makes the necessary arrangements; who organises the whole thing. In this kind of complex situation where we can either have one author, which is sensible, or a multiplicity of authors, which is absurd, the Government have got it right, and my noble friends on the Front Bench, although what they say is extremely interesting, are slightly agley.
Lord Willis: The heart of my noble friend on the Front Bench is in the right place, but I think that he has got this wrong. We are getting far too complicated. You cannot go into this error. You will eventually get the situation where the taxi driver who actually drives the typographer to the printing works will ask for a royalty because he played some part in the creation of the thing. No, no. We know there are authors, that there are artists, and that there are designers. If you go beyond that into typography you get into a forest, a nightmare, a jungle which I do not think anybody can sort out.
Let us keep it simple. The simplest way I think is the way the Government have got it at the moment.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken. As I said in connection with our discussions on Clause 8, it is not the Government's intention to make any significant changes to the provisions governing copyright in the typographical arrangement. We believe that, as now, the publisher should he the first owner of the copyright.
The amendment would make the designer of the arrangement the author. But who is to be regarded as the designer? The person who arranges the layout, the person who selects and sets the typeface, or the editor who supervises all these function?
The amendment seems to be a recipe for chaos. It is the publisher who must own copyright in the

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arrangement since it is his investment that is protected. He would have to acquire it by contract if the amendment were accepted and given the difficulties in assessing who the designer is, this would cause total confusion. I believe that the right course here is to ascribe authorship, and hence ownership, to the publisher.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I am obviously not very popular with those Members of the Committee who have spoken. However, I think it is remarkable that the Committee has not so far heard from anybody who is an expert in typographical arrangement. The interests of authors, artists and other are spoken to. But it is quite easy for an employer to set the terms of his contract of employment. It is very much less easy for an employee to set the terms of his contract of employment. That was the purpose of my amendment.
However, as the amendment is clearly not one that meets with the favour of all in this Chamber at the moment I shall not press it to a Division. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 45:
Page 6, line 3, leave out ("without previous knowledge of the facts").
The noble Lord said: I suggest that to leave out the words:
"without previous knowledge of the facts"
in the third and fourth lines of page 6 makes the Bill clearer and removes totally unnecessary words. If it is not possible for a person to discover the identity of a work by reasonable inquiry, it is not possible to discover that fact. Why it has to be qualified by
"without previous knowledge of the facts"
I do not know. If a person had previous knowledge of the facts he would know something different. It appears to me that these words are totally unnecessary, confuse the issue and make the position less clear. I beg to move the amendment.
Lord Kilbracken: I completely support my noble friend on this amendment. I cannot understand why the words:
"without previous knowledge of the facts"
are included here. What facts are we talking about? If the fact is the identity of the author then obviously it is completely meaningless. In any case it adds absolutely nothing.
I should like to ask a further question. Subsection (4) says:
"if it is not possible for a person … to ascertain his identity".
What person are we talking about? Are we talking about a congenital idiot or about a highly skilled reporter who is working for a gossip column on the Daily Express? What sort of person has to be able to
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ascertain the facts? Some of us are very skilled and experienced at finding out facts and some are hopeless fools. Does it mean any person or every person? I simply cannot understand how the wording of subsection (4) came to be written.
Lord Bonham-Carter: Can the noble Lord help me with a simple question? What is meant by "the identity of the author"? Supposing someone writes a hook under a nom de plume. Do you know his identity by the nom de plume, or do you not know it if you do not know what his real name is? I should like elucidation on this matter.
Lord Beaverbrook: The wording of subsection (4) is derived from that in the 1956 Act. It has not caused any difficulties as far as we are aware. A person with knowledge of the facts can always identify the author.
If coming to the question afresh, the test is this. Is it possible to find out who the author is by reasonable inquiry? In some cases the answer may be yes. For example, the true identity of Lewis Carroll could probably be discovered without too much effort. But the identity of the author of an anonymous letter may well defeat even the most rigorous investigator.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Nothing that the Minister has said has given any meaning to the words:
"without previous knowledge of the facts".
I thought that the purpose of the Bill was to rewrite the copyright law in clear language. Part of that process would be to take out provisions and even phrases that were unnecessary. If these are unnecessary why should they remain?
To deal with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, "person" would cover any limited company. What some of the large publishing companies might be held to be able to ascertain by reasonable inquiry is difficult enough without trying to work out what, say, Mr. Murdoch's company, or Mr. Maxwell's company, might have as previous knowledge. I should have thought that the words:
"without previous knowledge of the facts"
were totally unnecessary. I cannot yet see why the Minister wants them in. Perhaps he could explain what purpose the words serve.
Lord Beaverbrook: As I have said, a person with knowledge of the facts can of course identify the author because he has that knowledge. As I also said, the test is whether it is possible by reasonable inquiry for someone without previous knowledge of the facts to ascertain and find out who the author is. That is why we want the words included.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Obviously I am hitting my head against the proverbial brick wall. Perhaps the Minister will read what I have said and think about it. In order to help him I shall beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 46:
Page 6, line 4, at end insert—
("(5) the author in relation to any copyright work who is an employee shall as between him and his employer be entitled to apply to the employer or in case of a dispute to the Copyright Tribunal for an award from the employer as will secure for the employee a fair share having regard to all the circumstances of the benefits which the employer has derived or may reasonably be expected to derive from the work or from the assignment assignation or grant to a person connected with the employer of the property or any right in the work".)
The noble Lord said: This amendment raises questions of social justice to an employee. It also raises the problem of how to encourage the creation of more ideas in industry. That is a matter which the Prime Minister herself has often spoken about as being of importance.
It often happens in industry that an employee produces a good invention in the course of his employment and as a result of the exploitation of that invention the company makes a lot of money. It sometimes happens, especially with small successful firms, that an employee's invention is the lifeblood of that company.
I had the privilege of raising this matter during the passage of the Patents Act 1977. I was able to persuade the Government at the time that there should be included in that Act clauses which in effect said that if an inventor, an employee of a company, produced a substantial invention—substantial in the sense that it brought success to the company—then that employee should be permitted to make a claim against the company for a fair share of the profit of the company. His share of the profit would depend upon how he had been treated in the course of his employment in terms of promotion and such aspects—certain parameters in relation to his life—and also upon the nature of the invention. That was accepted.
The object of the amendment concerns an author who is an employee who in spite of being subject to contract, should have the right to go to his employer and say "This is what I have done and this is how the company has performed as a result of my contribution". In spite of his contract of employment it is right in social justice that he should be considered for a share of the profits or the successful aspects arising from his invention. If the company fobs him off completely, as so often happens, he should have the right to go to the copyright tribunal.
In speaking to this amendment I ask leave of the Committee also to speak to Amendment Nos. 255 and 256 because they deal with the functions of the tribunal. Those amendments seek to enable a tribunal to have regard to an application of that kind. That is the simple position. Justice to an employee is desirable in this age in order to help encourage the creation of new ideas. The amendment does not state that as of right the employee should receive an award of any kind. It gives the employee the right to apply to the company for an award. In the case of a dispute
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the matter should be referred by the employer, by the employee or by both for consideration by an independent copyright tribunal. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Elvel: We should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, in his amendment. As he pointed out on Second Reading, he was in large measure responsible for getting his provision written in to the Patents Act. We recognise that the noble Lord has performed a great service. We should like to see those rights of employees in some manner written into the Bill. We shall be discussing this further on Clause 11. We cannot follow the noble Lord in his grouping of Amendments Nos. 255 and 256. We should like to keep the copyright tribunal to a later stage of the Bill. No doubt the noble Lord will come back to us in his own time.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am not very much concerned with the government grouping on this matter. I am suiting my own convenience. I thought it would be fair to the Committee to indicate that I had considered what should be done with the terms of reference of the tribunal and I referred therefore to further amendments that I have tabled in order to help the Committee.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I apologise to the noble Lord if I was in any way out of order. I understand that this grouping may have been agreed. I would simply say that we agree with the thrust of the noble Lord's amendment while reserving the right to continue discussion of the copyright tribunal when it comes up.
The Earl of Stockton: We have to draw a clear distinction here between employees of inventing companies and the employees of other companies. An inventor is employed to invent. Publishers employ their staff to assist the author in the necessary transformation of his manuscript so that it can be read and appreciated by a wider public; and in doing this the copyright material is created. But this is purely incidental to their employment. It is a good estimate to say that only 2½ per cent. of the authors in this country are employed, whereas more than 70 per cent. of the inventors are employed.
Finally, I think that it would be a most divisive measure in going behind the normal structure of an employee-employer relationship and the pay negotiating structure through the trade unions or whatever form of bargaining exists between the employer and the employee.
Lord Willis: We are now moving towards one crunch point of the Bill which has a great effect on, for example, Clause 11 in respect of which I have an amendment down.
I should like warmly to support the noble Lord's amendment. I understand the point that was made by the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, but I do not think this amendment affects the situation that he has described.

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Let us come back again to simplicity. A great deal depends on contract and on the contract that is arranged between the employer and the employee. One of the points we must remember about that relationship is that very often the employer is in a position of power and authority. The employee is sometimes rather frightened. He has a mortgage to pay, he is a little worried about things and he does not like to go to the employer and say, "I am not getting a fair deal". In publishing, with all its processes, I do not think there is a problem but there are problems in other areas. There are problems, for example, in the creation of films.
A problem was drawn to my attention by a servant of the Crown who has worked for the Royal Mint. He is a professional designer trained at the Royal College of Art and his officially commissioned works include Her Majesty's Privy Council Seal, the greater and lesser Royal signets, the Seal of Her Majesty's Dependencies and even the seven-sided 20p coin. He is an employee of the Royal Mint. He took on a contract and that was it. He makes no complaint about that. What he objects to is that the Royal Mint has issued many of these items not in the normal way of currency but has sold them. For example, it has sold as collectors' pieces 25,000 of those 20p seven-sided coins at £11.50 each. That is 57 times their face value. He designed them. He made them. It was his inspiration that did it. He has not made a penny out of it. The Royal Mint has made a lot of money.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, that that man should have the opportunity to go to the copyright tribunal or to his employers and say, "I want a cut of this". What is more, I think that the Royal Mint would be wise to give him something because he is obviously a good designer. That is just one example. There could be many others in which the employee is in this delicate relationship with his employer and needs to have some support in law.
I believe we really ought to go back to basics—this is where we come to Clause 11, and I do not want to trespass on that—and that the author, the creator, is the first copyright owner and everything flows from that. That is the simplicity of the situation. But given the delicate relationship between employer and employee, I think that this amendment is a good one. It does not impose any obligations on the employer or on the employee. It just gives the employee a fair crack of the whip, and I therefore support it.
Lord Howie of Troon: I am rather uncertain about this amendment. I want to make two comments on the contribution just made by my noble friend Lord Willis. The example that he raised of the employee in the Mint whose work was marketed to the great profit of the Mint but not to the employee is a good example. It illustrates exactly the point that the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, made; that is, that there is a difference between the kind of examples which the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, raised at the beginning of somebody making a thing and somebody involved in publishing. That point is real
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and distinct and is relevant to this part of the Bill. The example of my noble friend Lord Willis, although an interesting one, is not really related to this part of the Bill.
There is only one other comment I want to make in relation to my noble friend's remarks. Both he and I are well aware of the calibre of the members of the National Union of Journalists, and I do not see in them the same meek, downtrodden employees that he described in his opening remarks; but let that be as it may. This amendment, in so far as it relates to publishing—and that is what I am principally interested in at this moment—is almost the same as Amendment No. 44, which we discussed a short while ago and which we decided to throw out. I think that we should throw out this amendment at this point for the reasons we have discussed already.
Lord Brain: We have had a slight tendency all through this debate to get stuck a little on journalists and publishing because of the use of the word "author", which has a traditional meaning. An author can design a computer program for a small firm. At the start it may be a computer-aided design program, and it may lead nowhere; but he may have the flair that the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, indicated in the design side on engineering and patents. The balance here between a patentable thing and a copyright thing is getting close in the inventiveness of computer programs.
We must not just have the journalists' and the publishers' thoughts on this matter; we must look wider because this Bill will be going on for 30, 40 or 50 years. We need to look at the wider aspect of the matter. I support the amendment.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I should like to say something about the support I have obtained from the noble Earl, Lord Stockton because apart from his use of the emotional word "divisive" in a context which I did not quite understand, what in effect he said was simply that social justice for employees occurs when the idea is of an inventive nature. Seventy per cent. of employees who are employed to invent therefore have that kind of right under the Patents Act 1939. They can go to a tribunal to have their claim for an award of a share of the profits determined.
The noble Earl also said that there is a difference in publishing. There were only 2½ per cent. of persons employed in the capacity of designing in the publishing field. He in effect supports the idea of an award claim being possible in the case of an inventor, and surely on his own argument he supports my case although it only happens to 2½ per cent. of the employees concerned.
Surely social justice these days for an employee requires that he should have the opportunity, as of right, to ask his employer for a fair share of what arises from his idea. Whether it is in the publishing trade, the electronics field, or whatever field it is, it is an idea that has been of value to that employer. All

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that the amendment states is that as of right the employee can ask the employer for an award. He may be very extravagant about the amount of award that he requires and a dispute arises. He should then as of right be able to take it to an independent tribunal.
In this Chamber, which has representatives of so many areas of industry, journalism and so on, it is difficult to understand why the sympathy for the amendment expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Williams of Elvel and Lord Willis, should not be felt unanimously by noble Lords. We are not dealing with a political matter. This is completely nonpolitical. We are dealing merely with an elementary question of social justice in regard to an employee who has an idea. The author should have the right to make this kind of claim to the employer and, in the case of dispute, to go to a tribunal.
We have so far been concerned with legalistic matters. It is about time—and it is getting late—that we considered the human relationships between an employee and an employer where the employee, in this case, the author, has some ideas which improve the value of his work to the employer.
9.30 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: I listened carefully to what noble Lords said in regard to the amendment. The fundamental reason why the work of an employed author belongs to the employer when it is created in the course of employment is that the author has been paid for his work and the employer is therefore entitled to the fruits. This is not unusual. It is probably the usual way in which employees are paid.
The amendment would entitle an employed author to a share in the fruits of every copyright that belongs to his employer.
Lard Lloyd of Kilgerran: With great respect to the Minister, that is not the purpose of the amendment. The employee has no right whatever to a share in the profits of the employer. Under the amendment he has the right to ask for a share. If there is a dispute, the matter should be referred to a tribunal. I am sorry to contradict the Minister so early in his speech, but he has that part utterly wrong.
Lord Beaverbrook: As I understand it, the amendment would entitle an employed author to a share in the fruits.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: With great respect to the Minister, he would have no right to a share in the fruits. In spite of his contract he has the right only to go to the employer and to say, "You have done very well out of my design, I feel I ought to have a little more than I am getting in the way of salary and promotion". There would not be a share in the fruits. He has a right to ask for something. That claim will be dismissed. His only other right is to say to the employer, "I am sorry about this; I realise this, that and the other; let us go to the tribunal".
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Perhaps the Minister would like to think about this before he comes to any decision. The preface to his speech is entirely wrong and he has wholly misunderstood the purpose of the amendment.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, said that the employee has no right to a share in the fruits but that he is to be given a right to ask the employer, who has done very well out of the authorship, for an advancement perhaps in terms of promotion or salary. Whichever way the noble Lord likes to look at the matter, he is looking at a share in the fruits, by whatever name it is called. There is nothing wrong with that so long as the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, does not mislead the Committee into thinking that he is only asking for a share by way of salary or an enhancement of promotion. However, he expressly said, "no fruits". My noble friend said that this was an entitlement to enjoy some of the fruits. I do not think that my noble friend was wrong in that.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. He is trying to help the Committee to consider this very important social problem of the employee, and I am grateful to him.
The only right that the employee is given is to ask for something. That is all. During the course of asking he may quantify the request but he has no right to have any share. His right simply consists in going to the employer. It is very difficult for an employee to go to an employer and ask for anything. It is terribly difficult for a young man who has done very well in designing, for instance, to go and ask for anything. It is difficult for him. This situation only arises when it is clear that the author has produced something which has been very successful and the company has made something out ot it.
In this amendment I am asking for the right to say to the employer, "Don't you think I ought to get a share of this in some way?" That is not a right to have it but a right to ask for it. I am sorry that I have not made myself as clear as I thought I had. I have repeated my words several times and there must be some reason why I have not been able to get the message across. Should the employer refuse, the employee could go to an independent tribunal to ask about it.
I am asking for such a simple thing. I am not asking that the employee should be paid anything or that he should be promoted.
Lord Denham: Perhaps the noble Lord would give way. My noble friend is replying and at this Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Kilgerran, has every right to interrupt him, but could my noble friend possibly be allowed to finish his argument and then the noble Lord can come back again to this question?
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord for advising me in that way. When I heard the noble Lord say something so totally wrong and apparently having totally misunderstood

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the terms of this amendment, I thought that I was justified in coming in at once in order to save time.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am very grateful to the noble Lord; but I believe that we have not totally misunderstood the thrust of his amendment. If the amendment is intended to have the meaning attributed to it by the noble Lord, I am afraid that the words do not appear to come out in that way. If the employee goes to the copyright tribunal, on the words of the amendment it is difficult to believe that he will not obtain an award. That is why I have to resist this amendment.
Lord Willis: Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may say that I think there is great sympathy in the Committee for the general drift of this amendment; in other words, that the employee should be given some rights, although not a total right. Irrespective of the wording of the amendment which the noble Lord seems to criticise, are the Government sympathetic to it and will they come hack at another stage with an amendment that will
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take into account the general human approach expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, in this amendment?
Lord Beaverbrook: I have to say that the Government are not very sympathetic to the thrust of the noble Lord's amendment. I am prepared to look at everything that has been said this evening. I am not able to make a commitment to bring anything back at a later stage; but for the convenience of the Committee perhaps it might be best if the matter were left on that basis.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am very grateful to the noble Lord. He said that perhaps part of the amendment is not very clear. On the basis of what the noble Lord has now said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 agreed to.
9.40 p.m.
Clause 10 [Works of joint authorship]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 47:
Page 6, line 7, leave out ("separate") and insert ("separable").
The noble Lord said: This is perhaps another amendment that deals with the meaning of words. Clause 10 deals with joint authorship. If I may give an example, if some lawyers were to attempt (as no doubt they may) to write a textbook on the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 or 1989, or whenever it manages to get through, it might be that several authors would each deal with certain separate sections. But it would not be clear from the book what was done by which author. Therefore, it would be appropriate that the word should be not "separate" as it is in the clause but "separable". For that reason, I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: This amendment raises an interesting point which has had us scratching our heads. It has a certain superficial attraction, but in the short time available to consider it we have been unable to decide whether it is right. I should like to come back to it at a later stage. That will enable us to consider the existing law on this point, what the effect of the amendment would be and whether this would be a good thing or not. The Bill here is the same as the 1956 Act. I hope the noble Lord will be able to agree to that course of action.
Lord Broxbourne: I am most grateful to the noble Lord on the Front Bench. I only hope, though without much confidence, that my few remarks may justify his magnanimity in giving way.
I declare an interest to this extent. I am a joint author, and have been for many years, of that fascinating work of which I am sure all Members of the Committee are keen readers, the Annotation of Standard Forms of Building Contracts. That is the name, impersonal if unexciting, with which it has gone through the decades. A few years ago the publishers renamed it Walker-Smith on the Standard Forms of Building Contract. I pull their legs and say, "I notice you waited until I changed my name before you changed the name of our publication".
It is a joint authorship. We have several joint authors. They are all lawyers—and very good lawyers, most of them—but I do not suppose that they have any fixed understanding of where the copyright lies. I hope it lies with myself, but that may only be wishful thinking.
The real point when you have joint authorship is that you do not just look at the law. Have a good understanding and a good fellowship, and no disputes will ever arise. That is my experience of, alas, approaching nearly half a century. I commend it to the authors of this Bill and to all students of copyright, including the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, who has forgotten more about this subject than most of us could ever hope to know.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I am very willing to withdraw the amendment and shall do so in a moment. Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne, that of course anybody who takes lawyers' advice before they have an argument, avoids the argument. If they wait until they have the argument, they need two lawyers, one on each side. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 agreed to.
9.45 p.m.
Clause 11 [First ownership of copyright]:
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Renton): If Amendment No. 48 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 49 and 50.
Lord Willis Lord Willis moved Amendment No. 48:
Page 6, line 14, leave out subsection (2).
The noble Lord said: We are going over the same ground as we did a few moments ago, so I shall not long delay the Committee. It is again this question of the employer and the employee and their relationship. Under the Berne Convention (which we have recognised for many years) the author is the prime owner of the copyright, and I am using the word "author" in the broadest sense. This Bill lays down firmly—and probably for the next 30 or 40 years—that the employer is the owner of the copyright. The onus, in order to keep in step with the Berne Convention and with natural justice, must be reversed. The employee is the creator and the owner therefore of the copyright.
We come back to the simple thing that we were saying earlier in the debate. It is all a matter of contract. We know very well that the employer in most cases has the muscle. I could name a dozen young authors who, given an opportunity by a publisher, would sell their souls for the smallest possible advance simply to get the book published. That does not happen with reputable publishers, but we all know—and I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, knows—many publishers who do this, and as I said earlier they screw authors into the ground.
An author does not really have very much bargaining power when he is desperate, a learner and a beginner. It is the same in films, in television and in every area of creativity. If you are young and eager and somebody comes along and says will give you an exhibition", "I will publish your book" or will put your play on" you say "Oh, my God! Thank you" and you take anything that he is prepared to offer. He normally then takes over the copyright.
All this amendment does is, as I said, to stand by the Berne Convention, to stand by something that is accepted throughout the world; that is, that the author is the irrevocable owner of the copyright. He can make a contract selling that copyright. He may make a bad contract, but there is nothing we can do about that unless he goes to the Writers' Guild who

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will protect him. But if he does not go to the Writers' Guild or the Society of Authors, he may make a bad contract. That is too bad. But we must lay down in this Chamber, and in this Bill, the basic principle that the author is the owner of the copyright, whether he is employed at £25 or £100 a week by a firm, or whether he is a freelance. But it must be him. That is the point. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Elvel: We from the Opposition Front Bench support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Willis; and for the convenience of the Committee I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 49 and 50. I cannot add to the arguments that my noble friend has put forward because I think that they are wholly right and were very clearly stated. I have to tell the noble Lord opposite that we regard this as a matter of fundamental principle in the Bill, and were it not that we are at a late hour this evening we would wish to pursue this amendment. All I can do at the moment is to say that I firmly agree with what my noble friend has said. I believe that this follows the Berne Convention absolutely in the right direction.
I do not agree, I am afraid, with Amendment No. 50 which may be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Brain. I believe that the author should be the employee under these circumstances. I can do no more than say very briefly that I fully support my noble friend and I hope that the Government will pay attention to what he has said.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: May I support—
Lord Beaverbrook: Before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him which amendments he is speaking to at the moment, because the grouping would indicate that we are discussing Amendments Nos. 48, 49, 50 and 52 together.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I was unclear whether Amendment No. 52 was in that grouping. I was speaking to Amendments Nos. 48, 49 and 50. Amendment No. 52 seemed to be slightly different, but perhaps my noble friend Lord Willis would accept that it covers the same point, in which case I am very happy to be deemed to have spoken to that grouping.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: Although my name is down to Amendment No. 49, I support Amendment No. 48 and everything that the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has said. I wish to develop the discussion a little further.
I too feel that this amendment is the most important amendment that we have discussed so far in the debate. The employer can always acquire copyright by contract. That is his protection. The creative artist under the Berne Copyright Convention is the person for whom the benefit of that convention is laid out. It is not for the employer; it is for the creative artist. He is the individual without whom there would be no literature, no museums, no theatre, no galleries and nowadays in many cases no millionaires.
The owners of creative works of art in our present society do extremely well. With great respect to the
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noble Earl opposite, the publishers, the auction houses, the galleries in Bond Street, the rich with their status symbols such as their Van Gogh's all do extremely well. The Minister could assist the Committee by giving a list of the artist millionaires who exist as of today.
Subsection (2) simply removes at a stroke the effect of subsection (1). What is the origin of subsection (2) going back through previous legislation? The orthodox legal reasoning is that when an employee carries out an act on behalf of his employer it is to be regarded as the act of the employer. The act of a servant or agent is to be regarded as his act. This arises from a consideration of the legal effect of those acts upon third parties. It is not as between the relations of employer and employee. It is utterly unjust to import this doctrine into a situation where the employer has no share in the design or the execution of the work.
Surely to force the employee to substitute the employer for himself as owner of all the rights and benefits arising out of the performance of his contractual obligation at large cannot in this day and age be right. We have now reached a position of equality as between worker and employer. So the general law should apply to the employee as it does to everyone else, with a contractual relationship entered into freely and equally. If the individual wishes to assign his rights he is entitled to do so but the onus should be the other way round. It should be quite straightforwardly and quite simply that the copyright of the work belongs to the creator of it. That is the basis of the convention and surely now, in this day and age, we have reached that point. I very strongly support this amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Willis.
Lord Hardinge of Penshurst: For many years I worked as a publisher's editor or editorial director for a number of companies. I have written literally thousands of reports and comments for them, giving my best and most honest opinion. I stress the word "honest" in the context of the point I wish to make. We were all young once, and I can imagine that some of those notes were frivolous and possibly occasionally humorous although not necessarily always right. It would not be beyond the skill of lawyers to argue that those are works of literature or of literary criticism. One has to consider the power that is placed in the hands of the employer. I am not being egocentric. Many thousands of people in the whole entertainment industry must be similarly affected starting with publishers' outside readers, some of whom are freelance and some of whom are employed.
It does not necessarily end with the entertainment industry. It seems likely that lawyers could succeed in demonstrating that internal memoranda from employees of engineering companies, boatbuilders, grocers or any employer were works of literature and thus, in a sense, at the mercy of the employer.
There is another situation which would make employees even more vulnerable. I am advised that neither bankruptcy nor receivership is referred to throughout this long Bill. Should any company—I am thinking particularly of the entertainment

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Industry—go into receivership, it would surely be the first duty of the receiver to raise cash by selling off anything that was worth anything, including notes written by employees under the misapprehension that such documents were written under the protection of privilege.
I basically agree with the Government that employers should own the copyright in what their employees write. If every individual obtained a copyright every time he put pen to paper, anarchy would prevail. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Willis, when he says that some degree of restraint should somehow be imposed on the use of it, in addition to those restraints already in the Bill. Uncountable numbers of employees—often the bravest and cleverest—daily put on paper their best convictions about what should be done. As the law stands at present and may stand in future, they would be safer to stick to anodyne flattery. That would not do much for British industry.
It has occurred to me that there may be a compromise. I put forward the following suggestion at the risk of making a fool of myself. May it be possible to devise an embargo of, say, 20 years on the uses an employer is free to make of the copyright belonging to him under this heading? Such a plan would of course extend to receiver, should that situation arise. If that were possible, the author and the copyrighter would be free to negotiate with each other any arrangement that suited them so long as the embargo lasted. I can only say that I hope the suggestion is worth serious consideration. I hope that it would also serve to encourage and warn everyone, including young starting-off authors and especially creative writers, whom the noble Lord, Lord Willis, I believe, has in mind, to look at their legal, copyright and contract positions before putting pen to paper.
Lord Howie of Troon: I was very interested in the remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Willis, because it brought to mind a predicament in which I find myself at the moment. As joint author of a hook, I am haggling with the publisher who is trying to screw me into the ground. The difficulty arises from the fact that the company which is publishing the book is my own company. The head of the book division is in fact my employee. Because he is my employee, I feel morally bound not to pull rank on him and I hope that my co-author will coerce him into doing justice.
Perhaps that illuminates the problem in terms of the simple approach which the noble Lord, Lord Willis, is adopting. It is an interesting way of dealing with the law. However, everything is not simple. I would be on the noble Lord's side in the simple case of the book which I have just mentioned, especially as it is mine. In general terms, I would be on his side.
If noble Lords can recall the debate which we had several hours ago on the first clause (where we first foreshadowed this debate on Clause 11) noble Lords will remember that I went into some detail concerning the difficulty of identifying the author of a magazine article. I do not wish to go over all that ground again in detail but merely to remind the Committee that the details are there in the debate which we held about 4 o'clock. In brief, what I am saying is that the author of a magazine article is only
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partially identifiable because he is a compound of the original author, the sub-editors, the editor and other people who have handled his work which becomes the final work.
I see that the noble Lord, Lord Willis, is shaking his head and I assume that he is shaking his head from side to side in disagreement.
Lord Willis: No, I am tired.
Lord Howie of Troon: That means the noble Lord is shaking his head from side to side in agreement. At all events, I do not want to go over that ground again. In certain cases the situation is simple and this amendment can apply. In the case of a magazine article it is not simple and the amendment cannot apply. Therefore I am on the side of the Government on this occasion and I cannot support the amendment.
10 p.m.
The Earl of Stockton: The noble Lord, Lord Willis, and a number of other noble Lords appear to have confused the position of authors and employees. Nobody is in contention with subsection (1) of this clause. However, the employee is in a different position to that of the author. The employee receives a regular salary; he receives holiday pay, sickness benefit, pension entitlement and a regular review of his salary. Therefore his or her work belongs to the employer.
On the other hand, the author is self-employed and has none of the benefits of being employed. Quite rightly, he is the owner of the copyright and it belongs to him or her in the first place. It is in the contract between the author and the publisher guided by a literary agent or lawyer that these arrangements are organised. The author is not an employee, and the employee is not an author. We must make that distinction absolutely clear. This presumption is retained in the Bill in subsection (4) of the 1956 Act. It is very important that the Government retain it now. We shall be coming back to this question on moral rights in Clause 71.
Lord Brain: We are back again to authors only writing. They take photographs. They may be part-time photographers who are on a minimal salary or wage. I quite agree that my amendment was a bad one but it was an effort to reach a compromise. I support this amendment and if this one fails I would certainly support one which gives copyright direct to the employee. This amendment is much simpler and the employee needs to start with rights on his side. I quite agree that subsequently by contact they will be eroded; and knowing publishers in the literary sense, they will be eroded very vigorously. I support the amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: In the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, there seems to be a difficulty or a misunderstanding because we are not concerned here with identifying the author. We presume that the author is identified. We have an author of whatever we are dealing with. We are dealing with whether, when he is employed, something that he produces should belong to him or his employer.

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As the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, has said, the employee has a contract of employment. The contract of employment can include anything. It can contain the condition that the employer is to have the ownership of anything of which the employee is the author. All that these amendments seek is to put the basic position first; that the employee has the ownership subject to contract. Surely it is perfectly clear that the employer is in a much stronger position than the employee as regards the terms of a contract and, therefore, there is much to be said for these amendments.
Lord Beaverbrook: With the leave of the Committee, I shall speak first to Amendments Nos. 48, 49 and 52 and then to Amendment No. 50 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Brain. Regarding Amendments Nos. 48, 49 and 52, Clause 11 (2) restates the existing law in Section 4 (4) of the 1956 Act which was in turn based on provisions of the 1911 Act. We believe this longstanding principle to be the correct one.
It is the employer who pays for the work to be done; he pays the employee and pays for any necessary raw materials. The employees of a company manufacturing cars, or washing machines, or anything else that springs to mind, would not expect to own what they produce. The product of their labour belongs to the employer—and rightly so. Why should it be any different when the employee produces a literary work instead of building a computer?
In general it is right that the author should own copyright in his work; but the situation is very different if the author opts for the security of employment and relies on the employer to provide all the material and other support he needs, and often to provide clear guidelines on the works to be made. If the author were to have copyright in such circumstances, the employer will pay for the work twice over; first, in the wage or salary to produce it and, secondly, in acquiring the copyright so that he can exploit the work.
Amendment No. 50, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Brain, seeks to resolve an impasse by making employer and employee joint owners. This commendable attempt to find a compromise will create more problems than it solves. It immediately doubles the number of consents required before a work can be exploited. Neither employer nor employee can move without the consent of the other. Therefore, the impasse is crystallised rather than resolved. In practice the provisions would have to be negated in favour of one of them, usually the employer, so that the work can be used. The point of my noble friend Lord Hardinge about embargo on uses of employer's copyright is unnecessary. Clause 155 (1) (d) preserves the law of breach of confidence. In any appropriate case that law, which of course is entirely case law, applies. The noble Lord's point is really not appropriate to the law of copyright as set out in the Bill. For the reasons stated, I resist these amendments.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: Before the Minister sits down, I thought I heard him refer to an employee
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who works on washing machines. I do not know whether the Minister appreciates that Clause 11(2) covers a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work. We are not discussing washing machines, or at least I had not appreciated that we were. Does the Minister really equate what is in Clause 11(2) with the worker who works on the creation of a washing machine? Is that the level on which we are discussing this clause?
Lord Beaverbrook: The noble Lord is well aware that I am making a comparison with other types of business.
Lord Ardwick: I have never worked on a washing machine but I have worked on many newspapers. I have written articles, as have my colleagues. They have been printed in the newspaper and the employer has had his money's worth. He is then in a position to sell the secondary rights—to syndicate the work. Journalists are asking for a share in the remuneration from that work. They want to participate in the employers' good little earner. It is not an enormous sum. Important money comes in only if one has a great blockbuster such as a Prime Minister's indiscreet memoirs. The average newspaper makes a great deal of money out of syndication. Journalists who create that wealth feel that they should have a share in it. They can only have a share in it through some form of collective agreement, hut to make that collective agreement they must have a right, or an employer can say, "Sorry, it is mine. It is my copyright. I am giving you nothing at all".
Lord Bonham-Carter: May I give the noble Lord an example of what I think we are talking about? Publishers often have dust jackets on their books. They are created by artists. The publisher uses them merely to display the book. Who owns the original? The original may well be a considerable work of art. As I understand it, under the Bill the original would belong to the publisher. I see no reason for the publisher to own the original. It should revert to the artist. The publisher has had his whack from using it as his dust jacket.
Lord Willis: That is an apt point. The noble Earl, Lord Stockton, is bringing out a new novel of mine in February. I have just bought from the artist the picture that she has drawn for the jacket. Macmillan must be an enlightened firm, because it allows the copyright to remain with the artist. Is that so?
The Earl of Stockton: It is the practice of the industry that the copyright in the jacket is held by the artist.
Lord Willis: That is commendable. I thank those noble Lords who have spoken and who have supported the amendment. As has been said, it is a vital one. It was wrong for my noble friend Lord Howie to return to the dreary business of magazine articles and so forth. If he cannot control his own firm, he should not complain about his problems in this place.
We all know who writes the magazine article. It is the author. We do not want to go into who is the typographer and all the matters we discussed a few

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hours ago. The noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, has said that journalists can write brilliant articles. It is not the photographs or the way the article is set out by the sub-editor; it is the way that it is sold around the world that is important.
The amendment reverses the situation and gives the employee some right. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hardinge, was drawing a longbow when he spoke about secretaries and such other people writing memorandums and claiming some kind of copyright. That is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a relationship between the employer and the employee. In 95 per cent. of cases the employer is in the strongest position. He can call the shots.
We must therefore give the employee some muscle. In the Bill we talk about the author having moral rights. If he has the moral right, even if he is employed, he should also have the other right so that he can say to his employer, "OK. I own the copyright. Let us make a contract". If his relationship is a good one he will obtain a good contract; if his relationship is a bad one, the employer will fire him. That is his option. We must put the right where it belongs. That is what the amendment seeks to do.
Lord Beaverbrook: I should perhaps return to the point of comparing this provision with industry. We are not only talking about literature and art; written instructions for operating washing machines are copyright works. In this context, we are therefore talking not only about publishers but about employees and employers throughout industry.
Lord Willis: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 49 and 50 not moved.]
10.15 p.m.
Lord McGregor of Durris Lord McGregor of Durris moved Amendment No. 51:
Page 6, line 17, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Lord said: Clause 11, as it stands, perpetuates a long-standing discrimination against newspapers and introduces a new discrimination. The old discrimination gives to the publishers of newspapers and periodicals the right to sell their employees' work only to other print media. A similar restriction does not apply to other employers in the literary, dramatic, musical or artistic fields. They can sell to anyone. They remain the first owners of any copyright in their employees' work made in the course of their employment, subject only to any contractual agreement to the contrary.
This discrimination may not have been serious for newspapers and magazines in 1911. But the development of the electronic media has produced an entirely new situation. One example may suffice. Recently the Croydon Advertiser wanted to provide a new service to the Croydon cable television company. The newspaper was advised that it would be in breach of the Act if it went ahead without getting its journalists' permission. This proved difficult to obtain, although negotiations with NUJ chapels
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eventually led to an agreement. Of course, on other occasions, the NUJ may instruct its members to refuse any agreement.
Agreement in the case of the Croydon Advertiser was obtained through the provision by the newspaper of extra money for the journalists. I cannot discern a rationale for such discrimination among employers. I do not think the inequality ought to be perpetuated in the new technical and economic circumstances to the growing disadvantage of the press.
A new discrimination arises under Clause 11 because the Bill vests the copyright of photographs in the photographer. Newspaper publishers will no longer have the right to sell them to the public. This will result in a serious loss, particularly to local newspapers which sell photographs of weddings, local sports, carnival queens and their attendants and the like. They sell these to the public to the extent of some £3 million annually. Surely it is unjust to provide that newspapers, whose staff photographers have been working in their employers' time, using their employers' cameras, films and darkrooms and photographing functions to which they have ridden in their employers' cars, should be stripped of the right to sell to the general public the photographs so produced.
All the Bill leaves the employers is the right to print such photographs in their own newspapers and to supply them to other publications while their staff photographers will obtain the income which used to be derived from the public by the local press.
I wish to make it clear that I am not talking here about the star photographers to whom the noble Lord. Lord Ardwick, earlier referred, or to those who go on dangerous missions. I am talking about regularly employed staff photographers who are on a contract of employment. I assume that the stars will in any event make their own contracts with their employers.
The effect of the amendment which I am proposing would be as follows. It would give newspaper publishers the same copyright in the work of their employees as that to be possessed by other employers, and thus avoid the substantial economic loss which would result from changing the present copyright law in the ownership of photographs.
That proposal is entirely in line with what the Minister said in his reply to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Willis. The Minister used the phrase—I think I have it accurately—that the product of the labour of employees belongs to the employers. That is exactly what I am urging in the case of newspapers. I can see no reason why, when a newspaper is an employer, it should be treated less favourably than other employers in the same field. I therefore beg to move the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 52 or 53.
Lord Morton of Shuna: As one who tries to practise the law. I am astonished that the employers about whom we have heard as regards this and previous amendments are in such dire straits. I should have

913
thought that the employer was always in the position of presenting to the prospective employee a contract and had far greater muscle to put forward the terms of the contract.
As I understand it, in Clause 11, we are dealing with what the position will be without the contract. One can deal with the ordinary staff photographer quite easily by his normal contract of employment. I should have thought that the non-staff photographer was in no very strong position against an employer such as a newspaper proprietor to negotiate his terms of contract and it would be better, if the bias has to be left on one side, that it should always be left on the side of the employee rather than putting it where the employer has the power to include it in the contract of employment.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: Perhaps I may very quickly express my embarrassment at seeing my name on this amendment. It somehow crept on to it. I think it must be because of my well-known admiration of the noble Lord, Lord McGregor. Nevertheless it should not be there.
Lord Kilbracken: Perhaps it might be of interest if I briefly gave an example from my personal experience. For five happy years I had a contract with the London Evening Standard. I was not employed by it. The contract said that I could write for no other English daily newspaper. That meant that if my work was syndicated it was not covered by that original contract. My noble friend Lord Ardwick said that in most cases syndication rights were not of any importance. However, I assure him that in many cases very often that is not the case.
The fact that I was not employed by the Evening Standard meant that I was able to negotiate the terms with the editor before starting work, both on what I should receive when my work was syndicated and on what I should receive for any photographs of mine that were taken. I negotiated very favourable terms so that I received 50 per cent. of syndication fees and a standard rate for any of my photographs. That was the position of a journalist who was not on the staff and not an employee. If I had been doing exactly the same work and had been a staff man, I should not have been entitled to those advantages unless I had negotiated them with the editor when I started work for that newspaper. But a staff journalist who takes up employment of that kind is not in a position to negotiate with the editor on such subsidiary rights with the degree of freedom that a freelance finds himself in.
I believe that the position of the staff man should be improved by leaving out this subsection so that he automatically is in the same position. It is a psychological matter. It gives him a psychological advantage in his bargaining with the editor when he takes up his employment and the staff man should be put in the same position of advantage as the freelances.
Lord Howie of Troon: I should like to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord McGregor. I do not recognise the employer-employee relationship
914
which was described by the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna. I listen very carefully to a Scots lawyer, no matter what he says. When the noble Lord, Lord Morton, described the journalist quailing before the editor and fearing to negotiate a decent contract, I believe he is showing a somewhat out-of-date picture of how things are done in a large part of the newspaper industry—perhaps not all of it.
Lord Willis: In your firm.
Lord Howie of Troon: My firm is wonderful, as we all know, and it is enlightened. What happens is that house agreements are reached by negotiation, not between powerful editors and feeble individuals but between feeble editors and powerful unions.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Is the noble Lord saying that there is a grave shortage of 18 to 20 year-old people who want to be journalists in the employment of newspapers and that the editors have to hunt for them? Or is there a number of people looking for each job that comes up, because that is the real issue?
Lord Howie of Troon: No, I was not saying that. To say such a thing would not cross my mind. It would not cross my mind because it does not depict the reality of the situation. There may be a substantial number of 18 to 20 year-olds who would like to become journalists, but that does not mean that a substantial number of 18 to 20 year-olds are capable of becoming journalists. The two things are not the same.
The vast reservoir of potential employees which the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, sees is a mirage. As an employer of young journalists I do not see it. I see something quite different. I see a situation where we negotiate quite properly. I have no objection to negotiating an agreement with the union because I think that is how things ought to be done. We reach what are thought to be amicable arrangements and amicable agreements with the union. The difficulty here, as my noble friend Lord McGregor of Durris has said, is that the newspaper and periodical industry is being treated differently in its relationships with its journalists from other employers of journalists. That is the matter to which he objects and which he describes. I do not want to lengthen the discussion unduly at this stage; but I think that the noble Lord, Lord McGregor, is right and he ought to be supported.
10.30 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: The provision in Clause 11(3) is based on Section 4 (2) of the 1956 Act and has its roots in the 1911 Act. The Committee will understand that the Government are reluctant to change such a long-standing provision without fully exploring the implications.
The change made to the definition of the author of a photograph has brought a further group of newspaper employees, such as staff photographers, within the terms of subsection (3). From the newspaper proprietor's point of view, this makes a had situation worse; but we must not allow the change in authorship provisions to obscure the

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fundamental issue here. Either a newspaper employee should own some of the copyright in his work, or he should not. It should not depend on whether he is a journalist or a photographer.
The Government have considerable sympathy for the newspaper proprietors' case that they be treated on the same footing as all other employers. In particular, we appreciate their disgruntlement that they are in a less favourable position than, for instance, broadcasters and cable operators who also employ reporters. However, we believed this to be a matter which should be aired in the Committee before we overturned long-standing provisions. We would now like to digest what has been said today before coming to a final conclusion.
Lord McGregor of Durris: I am most grateful for that reply and I hope it is to be understood as, if not an undertaking, at least a willingness to come back to the Committee having reconsidered the discriminatory situation perpetuated in and created anew by Clause 11. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 52 not moved.]
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 53:
Page 6, line 22, at end insert ("or stored on a computer database.")
The noble Lord said: This is a simple amendment. Subsection (2) of Clause 11 operates according to subsection (3). It applies only so far as it relates to the publication of work in,
"a newspaper, magazine or similar periodical, or to its copying for the purposes of being so published".
This amendment merely adds to that list to which Subsection (2) applies material stored on a computer database. This amendment has the support of the British Computer Society. I beg to move.
Lord Beaverbrook: I was not entirely clear as to the purpose of this amendment. Its effect would be to extend the rights of newspaper and magazine proprietors over their employee's works to include copying for the purpose of storing them in a computer database.
The Government are aware that newspaper proprietors are seeking to extend their ownership of copyright over their employee's works. I am not sure however that they would regard the extension provided by this amendment especially helpful. I should have thought however that the proper way to address that issue is to debate the principle of whether it is right to divide the ownership of copyright between proprietor and journalist in the way set out in Subsection (3) of Clause 11. I wonder whether the noble Lord will be agreeable to that.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am grateful to the Minister for that suggestion. It seems to me that that would be a useful way to proceed at this stage. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Beaverbrook Lord Beaverbrook moved Amendment No. 54:
Page 6, line 26, leave out ("(2)").
The noble Lord said: This amendment will correct a cross-reference to Subsection (2) of Clause 152 which is not correct. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I have to call Amendment No. 54A on the supplementary list, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon.
Lord Howie of Troon Lord Howie of Troon moved Amendment No. 54A:
Page 6, line 27, at end insert—
("(5) Where a person commissions the making of a work and that work is made pursuant to that commission the copyright subsisting therein shall pass to the commissioner upon payment for that work subject only to prior agreement to the contrary.").
The noble Lord said: At this late hour I shall be,extremely brief in moving this amendment. It picks up the law as it used to be and keeps it going as once it was. Essentially, my amendment gives the copyright to the person who makes the arrangements. That is the phrase that the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, will remember using at least once earlier today. It was correct then that the person who made the arrangements should have the copyright and it is correct here as well. I beg to move.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Dealing with this amendment saves me troubling the Committee on clause stand part. The Minister will no doubt recollect that in Clause 194 dealing with the design right, in Clause 245 dealing with registered design, in Clause 151 dealing with Crown copyright, and in Clause 152 dealing with international organisations the commissioning provision is in, and it is difficult to understand why the commissioning proposal is out of Clause 11.
It would seem logical that if there is to be a right in the commissioner for various rights it should be consistent throughout the Bill. I have great difficulty in understanding why, for example, if someone commissions that a portrait be painted or a photograph be taken of a person, that copyright remains in the photographer or painter whereas if it is a design it goes to the commissioner. No doubt the Minister will say that this is deliberate and will explain why.
Lord Brain: I have some sympathy for the idea behind this amendment in that if I, as an individual, commission a photograph of myself I wish to have at least some control over the copyright. But I understand in relation to photographs that in the past young photographers have commissioned photographs of individuals and others for the purpose of building up a library. They may then become eminent photo-portrait artists and things like that, and they have lost control at an early stage in their career of what could be a significant archive for their future benefit. This needs looking at, and this is why I have certain reservations about this amendment as a whole although thinking that the principle behind at least part of it is valuable and significant.
Lord Beaverbrook: This is a difficult area. Section 4 (3) of the 1956 Act provided that the author was the owner of the copyright in a commissioned literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, except for photographs, painted or drawn portraits and engravings where the copyright was vested in the commissioner. These provisions were subject to agreement to the contrary.
It was strongly represented to us that the provisions of the 1956 Act were anomalous. For example, the commissioner owns copyright in a photograph but not in a video film made of the same event, such as a family wedding. The commissioner owns copyright in a painting if it is a portrait but not if it is a landscape. We accept that these anomalies should he removed and the question then becomes: who should own copyright in the absence of agreement to the contrary—the author, as proposed in the Bill, or the commissioner, as proposed in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Howie?
We have concluded that it should be the author who owns copyright in a commissioned work, subject to agreement to the contrary. First, that is the present law for the majority of works. Secondly, if the commissioner needs the copyright for any reason he can acquire it contractually by assignment of future copyright under Clause 81 when entering into the agreement for the work to be made.
Lord Howie of Troon: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I do not think that there is a wide gulf between us. The Minister will notice that the amendment is subject to prior agreement to the contrary although admittedly the original boot is on the other foot. The bridging provision is the same. I should be happy if the Minister would agree to look at this. If he is able to do that, I shall withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beaverbrook: We put considerable reliance on the acquisition of the copyright contractually by assignment. The noble Lord said that there is not very much between us. On balance we feel that we have it right in this instance. I believe the balance that we have struck is the right one.
Lord Howie of Troon: Unfortunately, I do not agree. I think that the balance is slightly wrong, although not wildly so.
In view of the time, I shall withdraw the amendment. However, I intend to think about the matter again and I shall pay close attention to several points that have been made in the debate. I may return to the matter later. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Viscount Long: The Committee may feel that we have reached a suitable moment at which to break. Therefore, I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.
House adjourned at eighteen minutes before eleven o'clock.

  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES: ENGINEERING CONTRACTS
  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES: ENGINEERING CONTRACTS
  GRENADIAN DEATH SENTENCES
  GRENADIAN DEATH SENTENCES
  VIETNAMESE REFUGEES IN HONG KONG
  VIETNAMESE REFUGEES IN HONG KONG
  KMS COMPANY: AFGHANISTAN
  KMS COMPANY: AFGHANISTAN
  KMS COMPANY: NICARAGUA
  KMS COMPANY: NICARAGUA
  CANADIAN ARCHIPELAGO: SOVEREIGNTY
  CANADIAN ARCHIPELAGO: SOVEREIGNTY
  EAST-WEST RELATIONS: DISCUSSIONS
  EAST-WEST RELATIONS: DISCUSSIONS
  Mr. MICHAEL RYAN: FIREARMS
  Mr. MICHAEL RYAN: FIREARMS
  COT DEATHS
  COT DEATHS
  CLOTHIER REGULATIONS
  CLOTHIER REGULATIONS
  HUMAN FERTILISATION AND EMBRYOLOGY
  HUMAN FERTILISATION AND EMBRYOLOGY
  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING: COMPENSATION CLAIM
  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING: COMPENSATION CLAIM
  WASTE CHEMICALS DISPOSAL
  WASTE CHEMICALS DISPOSAL
  WILDLIFE AND COUNTRYSIDE ACT: PROTECTED LIST
  WILDLIFE AND COUNTRYSIDE ACT: PROTECTED LIST
  NORTH SEA POLLUTION: CONFERENCE
  NORTH SEA POLLUTION: CONFERENCE