Sitting of 29 January 1987

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  PLYMOUTH CITY COUNCIL BILL [Lords]
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Queen's consent, on behalf of the Crown, s.ignified.
  Read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.

  BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL
  Read a Second time, and committed.

  LONDON DOCKLANDS RAILWAY (BECKTON) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Tuesday 3 February.

  LONDON UNDERGROUND (GOODGE STREET) BILL [Lords]
  Read a Second time, and committed.

  BRITISH RAILWAYS (STANSTED) BILL (By Order)
  Order for Third Reading read.
  To be read a Third time upon Thursday 5 February at Seven o'clock.

  YORK CITY COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Thursday 5 February.

  BRITISH RAILWAYS BILL (By Order)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Tuesday 3 February.

  TEIGNMOUTH QUAY COMPANY BILL (By Order)
  Orders for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Thursday 5 February.

  ADVOCATES' WIDOWS AND ORPHANS FUND ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the third time, and passed.
Oral Answers to Questions
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Personal Debt
    Mr. Kirkwoodasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement regarding the rise in the accumulated level of personal debt.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John MacGregor): Over the last five years personal sector financial liabilities, including borrowing by unincorporated businesses, have been rising at a steady rate, matched by similar growth in personal sector financial assets.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Will the Chief Secretary acknowledge that the official figures do not tell the full story, because they do not include things such as building societies, families, friends and employers who lend money? Has he seen last year's estimates by the market research analysts Mintel? They show that consumer debt was increasing at £8 billion to £10 billion per annum. Does he think that that level of increase is sustainable? Does he agree that the consumer debt increase is simply contributing to the worsening trade figures?
    Mr. MacGregor: The hon. Gentleman ought to be aware that building society lending and things like that are included in the figures that I have quoted. Although lending has been going up, as I have said, assets have been going up as well. An important point in this context is that net financial wealth, which is assets minus liabilities, has increased by nearly 150 per cent. since 1980. Obviously. it is important that people should borrow prudently so that they can service and repay their debt. It is clear that, on balance, consumption is rising at a moderate level, and investment is rising at about the same level.
    Mr. Latham: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the biggest item of personal debt for most people is the mortgage repayment? Is he doing his best to try to get interest rates down in the interest, apart from anything else, of the counter-inflation policy?
    Mr. MacGregor: A mortgage is certainly a major item in a person's financial affairs and it is healthy that more and more people have the opportunity to obtain mortgages. There is a question about interest rates later on the Order Paper, and I will deal with that point when we come to it.
    Mr. Ashley: Is the Chief Secretary aware that irresponsible pressure is brought to bear on some people by credit organisations which make no effort to ensure that loans can be repaid? Is there not some way in which he can protect consumers against these ruthless people who are behaving in an irresponsible manner, damaging individuals and the economy?
    Mr. MacGregor: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, consumer protection is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. The right

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    hon. Gentleman will have noticed that the Bank of England recently issued a letter to all lending institutions urging them to observe prudent lending measures in their lending. My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing, Urban Affairs and Construction has echoed that point to the building societies in respect of lending for housing. It is important that these institutions observe prudent lending policies. I believe that, coupled with prudence by those who borrow, that is the best way to deal with the matter.
    Mr. Powley: If it is right that we should be concerned at the accumulated level of personal debt, does my right hon. Friend agree that it is absolutely right to be extremely concerned at the level of accumulated debt by local authorities in London and the level of debt incurred by this country in public spending?
    Mr. Speaker: The question concerns personal debt.
    Mr. MacGregor: Of course, the growth on both sides of the balance sheet—and I have said that this has occurred not only in borrowing but in the level of financial assets that people have acquired—is seen in most industrial countries. My hon. Friend's point about local authorities in London is a separate matter. Those authorities identified by the Audit Commission have been showing grave imprudence in the way in which they have managed their financial affairs.
    Mr. Blair: Now that the Chancellor has arrived at a position, 15 years on, that is considerably worse than that provided for by Lord Barber, will the right hon. Gentleman explain why he is so much in favour of individuals borrowing to consume, but so against the Government borrowing to invest?
    Mr. MacGregor: I have said that I am in favour of individuals borrowing to build up financial assets and to consume, provided they do that prudently. The Government have been borrowing prudently, and we have also been investing. Capital investment has been maintained in real terms under this Government, whereas under the Labour Government it substantially dropped in real terms.

    Africa (Debt Crisis)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action has been taken to combat the debt crisis in Africa.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Norman Lamont): The United Kingdom has helped directly to relieve the debt burden of African countries by a combination of rescheduling and converting loans to poor countries into grants. Our bilaterial aid to the poorest countries is now all in grant form and so does not contribute to their debt. United Kingdom bilaterial aid to Sub-Saharan Africa amounted to £285 million in 1985.
    Mr. Janner: Is Oxfam in Leicester right to say that in many of these countries in Africa, especially those in Sub-Saharan Africa, the amount paid each year to service debts—the amount of interest—actually exceeds the amount of aid that they receive, so that the debts increase each year? While I welcome efforts that this and every Government make to assist, does the Minister recognise that, in the light of the mass starvation and misery in those countries, the efforts are totally inadequate at present?
    Mr. Lamont: I welcome the opportunity to reply to that question, because the point that Oxfam has made is not correct. The total aid flows to the 29 poorest countries in Africa are twice the level of debt service payments in 1984. Oxfam's point is therefore not correct.
    Sir John Farr: Does my right hon. Friend recognise that such a question from a Labour Member of Parliament shows that even the Opposition recognise the strength of our international and national financial stature at the moment, which enables us to contemplate giving financial assistance to the whole of Africa? Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the Labour Government could not succeed in running the national economy or balancing the books at home?
    Mr. Lamont: My hon. Friend is right. Because of our financial strength we have been able, through retrospective terms agreements, to convert £240 million of old aid loans to countries, including Ethiopia, into grants. That is what UNCTAD had urged us to do. Britain is the second among OECD countries in converting loans into grants.
    Mr. Nellist: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if I can find out the latest figures on debt, so can he? Is he further aware that in 1985—not 1984—the total aid given to African countries by charities and Western Governments was $3·5 billion and that in that year the 29 poorest countries repaid exactly twice that sum in debt service charges? Given that in those countries one child dies each second from malnutrition and hunger, is not the real solution not just sympathy and charity, but cancellation of the leaching of the banking and commodities system by the cancellation of debts to those countries?
    Mr. Lamont: The figures that I gave are correct, and I stand by them. I do not believe that the figures for 1985 will show a different picture. I do not have the figures for 1985.
    Mr. Nellist: I do.
    Mr. Lamont: The figures that have been quoted by Oxfam are not correct. The Government have taken substantial measures to help the poorest countries of Africa. It is also a fact that 80 per cent. of our bilateral aid goes to the poorest countries, whereas the OECD average is 60 per cent. That shows that our aid has been concentrated where it ought to be—on countries that face a very serious problem.

    EC (Finance)
    Mr. Teddy Taylorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made in resolving the financial problems of the European Economic Community since the last meeting of the Council of Finance Ministers; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Peter Brooke): Since the last ECOFIN, the Agriculture Council has agreed important reforms in the milk and beef sectors. The Budget Council has rejected the Parliament's proposals for exceeding the maximum rate of increase in non-obligatory expenditure in 1987.
    Mr. Taylor: As the indications are that the Common Market is likely to exceed its legal spending limit by £3 billion this year, can my hon. Friend explain how Britain

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    will obtain the payment of its corrected rebate for 1986, which he has said is a substantial sum, without the supplementary budget that we were promised would not happen this year?
    Mr. Brooke: A substantial amount of the abatement is already in the existing figures. In forthcoming budgets we have secured that the amount which remains due to us for 1986 will be in the main budget for 1988. Under treaty law it could be as late as the supplementary budget in 1988, but we have secured it earlier than that.
    Mr. Dykes: As all member states of the Community have deficits which total about £100 million, is it not a little irrational and hysterical for certain hon. Members to go on about a minuscule de facto deficit to the European Community, bearing in mind the fact that the United States farm support system is much more wasteful and expensive? I believe that if the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) were here, he would agree with that.
    Mr. Brooke: We shall not know until the summer the deficit which may have been carried over from 1986. As to the larger figures which my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) quoted, money beyond that which has been authorised cannot be expended, and the Commission is obliged to bring forward recommendations about how it should be reined back.
    Mr. Skinner: Is the Minister aware that the proMarketeers, such as himself and his hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes), sound as though they are parodying the old phraseology of Churchill—that we will fight them on the beef mountains and swim in the wine lakes until we drown. It is stretching things a bit when it has cost Britain more than £6 billion to be a member of this club. I can join the miners' welfare at Derbyshire for 4s 4d.
    Mr. Brooke: The language of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is less memorable than that of Sir Winston Churchill. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for his achievements in reining back expenditure, which he secured in December.

    Public Expenditure
    Mr. Lawlerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what representations he has received from political parties for increases in public expenditure.
    Mr. MacGregor: No representations as such, but I have had correspondence with the Labour party about its proposals for increases in public expenditure.
    Mr. Lawler: Is it not highly dishonest for any political party to make a large number of expensive promises without stating precisely how they will be paid for? Given that the Labour party has made pledges amounting to £28 billion, would my right hon. Friend speculate which would be most damaging to the economy—an income tax rate of 53 per cent., a VAT rate of over 40 per cent. or a PSBR of £28 billion, with a consequent rise in interest rates?
    Mr. MacGregor: I am sure that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) has a good excuse for being away this afternoon. He clearly did not want to be here to he probed on the Labour party's £28
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    billion spending programme. My hon. Friend is quite right. Making pledges on that scale is misleading to the electorate. Those pledges have still not been denied or withdrawn, and they would undoubtedly have savage consequences if they were ever implemented.
    In answer to my hon. Friend's second question, he is right to say that the equivalent is 53p on income tax, which the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook has said he will not do. Therefore, it will mean a massive increase in VAT or in the PSBR. Opposition Members have already promised a big increase in the PSBR. Either would greatly fuel inflation and savagely increase interest rates.
    Mr. Madden: Is the Chief Secretary aware of the all-party representations that have been made by hon. Members representing Brad.7ord, including Conservative Members, about the Government's refusal to allow the city of Bradford to borrow more to deal with the housing and education crisis that is gripping it?
    Is he also aware of the protests made by hon. Members of all parties who represent Bradford, including Conservative Members, about the Government's refusal to allow the city to use more of the money from the sale of council houses to improve the city's housing?
    Finally, will he urge the Prime Minister to accede to my request this week to meet representatives of the city, including Conservative Members, so that we can urge her to change her policies and allow the city to overcome the social and economic problems which the Government have brought upon that city?
    Mr. MacGregor: Those representations have, quite rightly, not been made to me. I would advise the hon. Gentleman that in the public expenditure White Paper this year we have considerably increased the rate support grant for local authorities and the provision for housing maintenance. However, to engage in overall public expenditure planning on the scale that some Labour-controlled local authorities would wish, or are doing through deferred purchase and other creative accounting measures, would be very damaging for the economy and, in the long run, extremely disadvantageous to the ratepayers and the electorate in the local authorities.
    Mr. Gow: In view of the Labour party's recent further commitments to public expenditure, will my right hon. Friend revise his figure of £28 billion as being the total cost of the extra spending by the Labour party and make sure that his revised and higher figure is well know to all the people of this country?
    Mr. MacGregor: I am certainly willing to revise the figure each time it becomes clear to me that the spending pledged by some of the spending shadow spokesmen is withdrawn. However, I shall equally add to it any additional spending pledges that they make.
    My hon. Friend is entirely right in saying that it is important that, when the election comes, the electorate are aware of the tax, interest rate and borrowing implications of the Labour party's proposals.
    Mr. Gould: In order to bri:ng an end to this increasingly ridiculous exercise and fanciful invention, will the right hon. Gentleman take one or two of his hon. Friends aside, in a gentle manner, and invite them to read any one of the independent surveys of Labour party's economic programme—for example, that produced by the Institute for Fiscal Studies or Philips and Drew, the

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    stockbrokers—which all show the fanciful nature of those inventions? While he is about it, will the Chief Secretary read those surveys himself so that we hear no more of that nonsense from the Dispatch Box?
    Mr. MacGregor: I do read them and they do not bear that out. I advise the Labour party that it could put the matter right by making clear which of the pledges that I have put forward—and they have all been put forward in the pages of Hansard—it would withdraw. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer asked the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook the other day which pledges he would withdraw on health, education and aid. It was significant that the right hon. Gentleman simply did not answer. It is up to the Labour party to make that matter clear.

    Personal Equity Plans
    Mr. Lawrenceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what information he has received about the response to the personal equity plan scheme since its introduction.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Nigel Lawson): The personal equity plan scheme has had an excellent start. Although it only began on 1 January, more than 150 plan managers have already been registered, and the response from investors has been most encouraging.
    Mr. Lawrence: In view of the recent criticisms of fund managers, that they engage in short termism, is it not particularly welcome that individual shareholders, who, after all, have shown consistent loyalty to British industries, are welcoming so enthusiastically this splendid Government initiative?
    Mr. Lawson: I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend. Of course, there is a great deal in what he says. This Government have been consistently seeking to enlarge share ownership in this country. We did it first by new concessions for employee share schemes, then through the privatisation programme. As a result of those two things combined we have trebled the number of shareholders in this country, and now there is the personal equity plan scheme under which according to the press, some £200 million was invested in the first week of January alone.
    Mr. Wrigglesworth: Does not the survey carried out by the Financial Times show the claims that the Chancellor is making for this scheme to be nonsenes? Is it not the case that higher tax-paying people and existing investors are buying personal equity plans, as we warned they would during the passage of the Finance Bill? Will the Chancellor look at the scheme again to seek to ensure that it attracts not existing but new investors?
    Mr. Lawson: The hon. Member is mistaken. Barclays, for example—one of the biggest of the plan managers—recently announced that roughly a quarter of its personal equity plan investors were first-time share buyers. The hon. Member owes the House an explanation of where the so-called alliance stands on financial and City issues, given the fact that, in the important debate last night, the leader of the Liberal party voted in one Lobby and the leader of the SDP voted in the opposite Lobby.
    Mr. Cash: Does my right hon. Friend agree, following up the point that he has just made, that this Government
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    have helped the small shareholder and helped to distribute wealth throughout the country? Has not the alliance demonstrated, by what it did yesterday, that it does not have the slightest interest in those principles for which it purports to stand?
    Mr. Lawson: My hon. Friend is right. As I have indicated, the only Government and the only party who are dedicated and are effectively bringing about wider share ownership in this country are this present Conservative Government. We have already, as I indicated earlier, trebled the number of shareholders in this country, and with the further progress on the privatisation programme and with the further progress on personal equity plans, which, despite the many critics, are proving an outstanding success, we shall increase this further.

    Interest Rates
    Mr. Sedgemoreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what factors he attributes the current real level of United Kingdom interest rates in relation to those prevailing in the other six main Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries.
    Mr. MacGregor: One factor is the need to keep interest rates at levels which maintain downward pressure on inflation.
    Mr. Sedgemore: Bearing in mind that the goods in the monetarist pantheon were ritually slaughtered in the autumn statement, and the Chancellor was found cowering in the crypt with the blood of an impending election on his hands, is it not time that the idolatry stopped and we started reducing interest rates for industry, borrowers and home owners as part of a wider plan to get Britain working again?
    Mr. MacGregor: The first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is untrue. As the public sector borrowing requirement is being fulfilled for this year, and will be for next. my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has not done what the hon. Gentleman suggests.
    As to the level of interest rates, I have made it clear that bringing down inflation is a crucial factor. There is nothing more important to most people, and to industry, than keeping inflation at the level that we have at the moment, or preferably lower.
    Investment is at record levels, the profitability of industry is back to the levels of many years ago, and liquidity is high. The plain fact is that investment is going ahead strongly.
    Mr. John Browne: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the dismantling, and even the smallest possibility of a resurgence, of Socialism has an upward push on the real level of interest rates?
    Mr. MacGregor: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The policies that the Opposition intend to pursue, particularly their spending policies—they have admitted this—with a big increase in the public sector borrowing requirement, would indoubtedly push up interest rates and drive us back to the negative rural interest rates of the previous Labour Government, and that in itself can be very damaging to the confidence of investors. They achieved a high level of inflation then and will achieve the same again if those policies are pursued.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: Will M0 follow M1 and M3 in being discarded, and, if so, what will be the point of discipline to which interest rate policy will be related? Will it be an exchange rate target, and, if so, what is the point of pursuing that outside the exchange rate mechanism of the EMS?
    Mr. MacGregor: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said on many occasions that he looks at a number of factors and guidelines when determining monetary policy. He has spelt that out clearly in many speeches; so much so that one noted City economic commentator on monetary matters says that no Chancellor has ever done so much to explain publicly his monetary policy.
    Mr. Maples: Is not one of the reasons why real interest rates are so much higher here than in other countries the fact that our bank lending is growing so fast, and thus interest rates have to rise to attract the deposits to fund that increased lending?
    Mr. MacGregor: One of the factors has been the heavy corporate demand for investment finance in recent years. The freeing of the financial system from various inefficient and unfair controls has been another factor. However, it is worth stressing again that the current level of interest rates is not inhibiting a high level of investment in Britain.
    Mr. Gould: The Chancellor does a lot of explaining because he has a lot to explain. Is it not perfectly obvious that if the Chief Secretary was brave enough to be honest with us he would admit that the only reason why we have real interest rates twice as high as Germany is that that is now the Chancellor's only means of warding off a sterling crisis? Is that not further evidence of the fragility of our economic situation and the dangerous high wire that the Chancellor has to tread?
    Mr. MacGregor: That is certainly not the case, as is borne out by many economic factors at the present time. It is quite difficult to establish the precise parallels in international real interest rates, as I think the hon. Gentleman would agree. Taking the consumer price index as well, to suggest that our real interest rates are twice the level of West Germany is wrong. It is rich of the hon. Gentleman to suggest that interest rates are too high, when his own PSBR policies would undoubtedly increase our interest rates even more.

    Public Expendtiture
    Dr. Marekasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what representations he has received concerning the Government's White Paper on public expenditure.
    Mr. MacGregor: None.
    Dr. Marek: Did not the Chancellor and other Ministers deliberately riddle their proposals with measures that would be generally beneficial this year, and include other measures that would have a gravely adverse effect next year? Were there not measures such as doing nothing much for the level of regional assistance this year with the intention of halving it next year, and increasing prescriptions by 2 per cent. this year, with the intention of increasing them by 8 per cent. next year, with a forecast inflation target of only 3½ per cent.? If the Chancellor did this deliberately—however much he tries to squirm and
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    deny it—will he tell the House the truth and admit that he was trying a blatant, cynical manoeuvre to bribe the voters in a few months' time?
    Mr. MacGregor: I do not follow the logic of suggesting that we have cut expenditure in areas that the hon. Gentleman thinks are attractive to the electors, and then suggesting that that is an election bribe. However, the hon. Gentleman will know that the changes in regional policy—regional development grants and regional selective assistance—followed a substantial review which was undertaken a few years ago, which is now being implemented. The effect of that is that regional development policy is now targeted more on the areas of high unemployment and on the need for investment which helps with additional labour. He will also know that we do not just measure the amount of money that is entering the regions by regional development grants. A range of other things, including, for example, the new urban development corporations, form a very cost-effective way of helping the regions, as we have demonstrated, and should be added to regional development grants.
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomley: Following the White Paper. has my right hon. Friend received any representations to increase public spending by £360 million to educate within the state system those currently educated in private schools, which is a vital part of Labour's charter for pupils and parents?
    Mr. MacGregor: I have not received any representations, but representations should certainly be made to the Labour party. My hon. Friend is right. That additional spending commitment by the Labour party has many other disadvantages and I am sure that it would prove to be a big electoral liability.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the anger throughout the northern region in all industry over the two-month moratorium on the payment of regional development grant, which was announced in the small print of the public expenditure White Paper? Does he realise that, in imposing those cuts on the Department of Trade and Industry his Department is literally kicking people out of work and destroying the ability of many firms to expand? Will he consider that, because industrialists throughout the north are demanding that the policy be reversed?
    Mr. MacGregor: The hon. Gentleman has this wholly out of perspective. In the first place, compared with last year's public expenditure White Paper, there will be an increase of £46 million in total regional development grant and regional selective assistance expenditure in the coming year. It is important to understand what the two-month moratorium is. It will not stop the payment of regional development grants for two months. It is easing out over the year, for good public expenditure control reasons, and in accordance with our plans, the payments to get the cash flow equal. I do not believe that that will have the kind of effect that the hon. Gentleman talks about.
    Mr. Yeo: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is widespread public support for the kind of selective increases in spending which were revealed in the public expenditure White Paper, particularly as those are being achieved within the context of reducing public expenditure

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    as a whole as a percentage of the gross domestic product at the same time as tax is being cut? Will he assure the House that that policy will be continued?
    Mr. MacGregor: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right, and I can assure him that the policies will continue. As the public expenditure White Paper says, we are determined to continue to reduce public expenditure as a proportion of GDP, as we originally pledged in 1979. But my hon. Friend is also right in that, because of the success of our economic policies—we are now moving into the sixth year of steady growth—we have been able to increase in real terms many key and critical areas of public expenditure at the same time as we are achieving our overall public expenditure bill.
    Dr. McDonald: With the worst-ever trade deficit in manufactured goods, at over £8 billion at the end of the last year, have the Government not got their policies wrong in their determination to cut capital spending in order to increase consumer spending during this year and the years to come, which will only continue to suck in imports and make the balance of payments deficit far worse?
    Mr. MacGregor: The hon. Lady has got it wrong. In the past few years consumption has been rising by about 3 per cent. a year and investment by about 4 per cent. That is in sharp contrast to what happened under the previous Labour Government, when consumption rose twice as fast as investment.

    North Sea Oil
    Mr. Ernie Rossasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount of revenue raised through North sea oil since 1978–79.
    Mr. Norman Lamont: £56 billion.
    Mr. Ross: Since all the analysts, even at the Scottish Office, are now suggesting that there will be increased redundancies this year in the North sea oil industry, how does the Minister respond to the charge that in the past six years the Government have wasted £56 billion? What level of tax does he think Britain would be enjoying if he had not wasted that £56 billion? Can he tell us one single thing that we have as a result of that £56 billion from North sea oil?
    Mr. Lamont: In no way has the £56 billion been wasted. First, it has been used to reduce overseas debt. Secondly, it has been used to acquire overseas assets that will benefit this country for many years to come. Thirdly, it has been used to support a prudent level of expenditure in the country under this Government, including an increase in National Health Service resources way above what the previous Government were able to afford. The hon. Gentleman is also aware that we have introduced the Advance Petroleum Revenue Tax Act 1986, whichwill help to modify some of the consequences to which he referred.
    Sir William Clark: Does my right hon. Friend agree that part of North sea oil revenue has been used to pay back the International Monetary Fund loan that was borrowed by the previous Labour Government? Does my right hon. Friend also agree that since 1979 our overseas assets have increased by far more than £56 billion? It is with the returns from those overseas investments that we shall be able to replace North sea oil revenue when North sea oil disappears.
    Mr. Lamont: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The overseas debt has been reduced by 14 per cent. The figure that he gave concerning our overseas assets is also right. The country will be able to enjoy the benefits of that stream of dividends for many years to come, and way beyond the life of North sea oil.

    Privatisation
    Mr. Barronasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount the Government hope to raise by way of revenue from the sale of nationalised industries.
    Mr. Norman Lamont: Proceeds from privatisation so far are nearly £11 billion. A further £5 billion is expected in each of the next three years.
    Mr. Barron: At the end of the first day's trading on both British Telecom and British Gas the shares were found to be undervalued by £2 billion. Can the Minister tell us what protection there will be for the public purse with regard to the selling off of British Airways?
    Mr. Lamont: The pricing of privatisation issues is based upon the best banking and stockbroking advice available to the Government. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman is totally wrong if he says that the British Gas issue was underpriced. The general verdict of all commentators was that it was rightly priced and gave good value to the taxpayer. Furthermore, the exceedingly good thing was that it attracted a large number of small, first-time investors, and that is something that is welcomed by everybody in this country other than the Labour party.
    Mr. Forman: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, quite apart from raising useful amounts of revenue, those sales were important to the Government's objectives because they provided an opportunity for widening share ownership, especially to the employees of the undertakings concerned? I refer, in particular, to the excellent record of the National Freight Corporation in recent times.
    Mr. Lamont: My hon. Friend is right. No doubt he will have noticed that there have been a number of surveys that have drawn attention to the considerable increase in share ownership in Britain. Last week, one such survey, by Dewe Rogerson, suggested that perhaps 20 per cent. of the population now own shares. There are different estimates, but it seems clear that share ownership has probably increased some threefold. That again is something to be welcomed by everybody other than those who have a vested interest in a "them and us" attitude.

    Third World (Debt)
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent meetings he has had with the other Finance Ministers regarding financing of Third world debt; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Lawson: The financing of Third world debt was among the matters discussed at the annual meetings of the IMF and World Bank in Washington last September, in which I took part.
    Mr. Skinner: Is it not true that the Tory Government have double standards with regard to assisting the debtor countries in the world? Will the Chancellor admit that they were very quick to respond to the need for a massive loan to Fascist Chile and that, in 1986, they encouraged their

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    friends in the City, to make a deal—by backdoor methods—to bail out the South African Government when they faced a £20 billion debt? They provided tax credit to the banks to bail out Argentina, but the poorest countries in the world have been left to fend for themselves.
    Mr. Lawson: The hon. Gentleman is mistaken. Moreover, if he is concerned about the problem of indebtedness he should look much closer to home, at those Labour authorities reported on today by the auditors of local government for financial mismanagement and creative accounting on a massive scale.
    Mr. Moynihan: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the existence of a discounted secondary market in debt offers substantial opportunities for the Government to use, this financial mechanism to fund developing countries programmes?
    Mr. Lawson: My hon. Friend is right. The debt problem is still a very serious one, which all the major countries are addressing. A number of methods such as those that he has suggested need to be brought into play.

  PRIME MINISTER

    La Belle Discotheque
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister, pursuant to her answer of 12 January, Official Report, column 3, what assumptions, as opposed to evidence, have been conveyed to Her Majesty's Government by the other Governments consulted regarding possible Syrian involvement in the La Belle discotheque nightclub terrorist bombing in Berlin; and if she will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): None, Sir.
    Mr. Dalyell: With regard to what happened in Berlin, why does the Prime Minister suppose that her sources for certainty are better than those of the West German Department of Justice, the West Berlin police and Der Spiegel?
    The Prime Minister: As we understand it, the position has not changed since I replied to a question last January, and the hon. Gentleman knows what that is. We have evidence of Libyan involvement in the bombing of La Belle discotheque in Berlin on 5 April, but the Germans have evidence of Syrian involvement in relation to the German-Arab Friendship Society. The position has not changed since I answered a question many months ago.
    Mr. Latham: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that there is at least one correct assumption behind the hon. Gentleman's question—that when it comes to violent terrorism Libya and Syria are as bad as each other?
    The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend is aware, we have taken strong action against both.
    Mr. Tom Clarke: Does the Prime Minister consider that the information from the German police sent to my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) was right or wrong?
    The Prime Minister: I am answering about what I understand to be the Government's position—
    Mr. Tony Banks: Do they not tell the right hon. Lady?
    The Prime Minister: I have given the answer many, many times. We have evidence of Libyan involvement in La Belle discotheque. The Germans have evidence of Syrian involvement in the matter of the German-Arab Friendship Society. That is the position.
    Mr. Hickmet: My right hon. Friend will be aware of the damage done to national security by the contacts between the Leader of the Opposition and members of his party in the Peter Wright case and—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Does this relate to the specific question?
    Mr. Bell: As the West German Government evidence is clearly of Syrian involvement, was it not a tragic mistake by the Government to allow American fighters to attack Libya from this country on the basis of faulty information and evidence—a tragic mistake as a result of which innocent people lost their lives?
    The Prime Minister: I have given the answer with regard to our evidence about Libyan involvement and about our understanding of German knowledge of evidence of Syrian involvement which came out in the trial. I have answered debates about the raid on Libya for which facilities were given from this country. I believe that to have been the right action against terrorism.
    Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Prime Minister's reply and her economality with the truth, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the djournment.

    Engagements
    Sir John Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 January.
    The Prime Minister: This morning I attended a presentation about the Government programme for action for jobs. I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
    Sir John Biggs-Davison: As the First Lord of the Treasury was not on the Treasury Bench when this was raised in Treasury Question Time, may I ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether she has studied the Official Report of yesterday's debate on the City? If so, is she surprised that in the very week of the umpteenth relaunch of the alliance the SDP leader and the Liberal leader voted against each other? One hears about guarding one's flanks, but this is ridiculous. Is not their claim to be a true alliance as spurious as a 50p note?
    The Prime Minister: I studied both the debate on I.he City and the Division List which followed the debate. I understand that at the very time that the two right hon. Members were appearing together on television last night they were voting differently in the House, one with I he Government and one with the Opposition—walking proof that the so-called alliance is not an alliance.
    Mr. Kinnock: Can the Prime Minister confirm that, following his speech and interviews yesterday, the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is giving serious consideration to enacting extra-statutory powers to

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    replace voluntary compliance with the takeover panel's fair dealing code? Does this proposal by the Secretary of State have her full support?
    The Prime Minister: The Secretary of State made an excellent statement yesterday. He announced a review of the takeover panel—if that is what the right hon. Gentleman is referring to—and we shall wait to see what that produces.
    Mr. Kinnock: Is the right hon. Lady correcting the quotations in the Daily Telegraph and the Financial Times this morning of the Secretary of State saying that failure to secure compliance would ensure extra-statutory powers? If that is the case—and I quote from c. 372 of yesterday's Official Report—can the Prime Minister tell us why that is the case now and why in June last year the Government voted against exactly that proposal when it came from Opposition Members?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry yesterday announced a review of the operation of the takeover code. As I understand it, the right hon. Gentleman wants us to prejudge that review. We do not prejudge the outcome of the review, but if practitioners do not respect the system we shall replace it with one making greater use of statutory powers and sanctions.
    Mr. Kinnock: In that case, how long is the period of proof, given that the review that the Secretary of State set up last June is not, according to his hon. and learned Friend, expected to report before the end of this year, so that we will not be able to consider it this side of the election?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is aware that this Government have done more that any other to bring in legislation to prevent abuse in the City. Perhaps he might look at what The Guardian said on Tuesday 20 January:
    "Opposition taunts of too little, too late dissolve when it is remembered that the last Labour administration jettisoned legislation drawn up by the outgoing Heath Government which would have made insider trading a criminal offence in the early seventies."
    Mr. Watts: What action would my right hon. Friend take if one of her hon. Friends were to suggest that political power in this country should be won by violence on the streets? Has she any advice to offer to the Leader of the Opposition on this matter?
    The Prime Minister: Any suggestion that political power should be exercised by violence on the streets is the very denigration and opposite of democracy.
    Mr. Gareth Wardellasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 January.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Wardell: Bearing in mind the fiascos of Westland, the Wright case and Zircon, should the country now regard the Attorney-General as having been made to look more like a fool than a fall guy?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Robert Atkinsasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 January.
    The Prime Minister: 1 refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Atkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that thousands of my constituents who work in local defence industries are obliged, and honour the obligation, to keep details of their work secret? Do they not have a right to be angry and frustrated at the activities of Left-wing activists and journals in publishing information which could damage our national security? As the Government have done all in their power to limit this subversion, will the Prime Minister prevail upon the Leader of the Opposition, on Privy Council terms if necessary, to stop the activities of his so-called supporters, which is so disgraceful?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. The New Statesman deliberately chose to publish information which could be of benefit to our potential enemies. We are still waiting for a clear condemnation from the Labour Benches. With regard to any further showing of that film outside this House, the Leader of the Opposition said, when he spoke last Thursday, that he would uphold the Government's view that the showing of a particular film would prejudice national security. The Leader of the Opposition also agreed that one breach, or threatened breach, does not justify a further breach.
    Mr. Nellist: Will the Prime Minister take time to consider the fact that 10 days ago in Warwickshire there was an armed raid on a post office? Following that raid the police requested four emergency lines to the incident room. While members of the National Communications Union were willing to install those lines, on an unpaid basis, they were prevented from doing so by local management, who removed their vans, clearly under the instruction of Mr. Michael Bett, to bring this dispute to a head sooner rather than later. In that regard, is not the lack of emergency cover in the BT dispute clearly down to management?
    The Prime Minister: The trouble is the strike itself, which can only put people out of work and make older people suffer if their telephone communications are not kept working. The trouble is the strike itself.
    Mrs. Virginia Bottomleyasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 January.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mrs. Bottomley: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the package of training and employment measures announced yesterday offers real hope to the unemployed with the prospect—[Interruption]—of jobs today and tomorrow? Does she further agree that attempts by the Labour party to denigrate these measures should be disregarded by us all, but most of all by the unemployed, who stand to benefit most directly from them?
    The Prime Minister: Yes. My hon. Friend is right. No other country in Europe, even though some of them have a bigger proportion of unemployment among youth and a longer or greater proportion of long-term unemployed than we have, has such an excellent package of individual help to each and every unemployed person. That is evidence of the Government's commitment to provide the fullest possible help to all those looking for work.
    Mrs. Renée Short: Can I ask the Prime Minister whether she will reconsider the support that she gave to a highly emotional and not very helpful speech by the chief constable of Greater Manchester, when he said that AIDS victims were whirling about in a cesspit of their own making? Does she not accept that this was an extremely unhelpful speech to make? Will she make sure that she now supports those, both in this House and outside, who are trying to deal with this very difficult problem?
    The Prime Minister: I refer, not to the sentence which the hon. Member quoted, but to what I said. I do not have it with me, but she can find that from the transcript. I said that some people, whether from the Church or elsewhere, had spoken out to the effect that morals do matter in AIDS and that, while Governments cannot prevent people from getting AIDS, people themselves, by their own conduct, can do so. That is correct.
    Mr. Anthony Nelsonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 January.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Nelson: Adverting to the point made by the Leader of the Opposition, may I invite my right hon. Friend to agree, with reference to the takeover panel, and code, that it would have been wholly improper to have imported statutory provision for that into the Financial Services Bill, that it was the Conservative Government who introduced that Bill, which tightened up in an unprecedented manner control and regulation of the supervisory structure of the City, that it was the Conservative party which amended that Bill to tighten up
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    very significantly the powers of the Securities and Investment Board, and that the Conservative Government will not hesitate to take further measures if necessary?
    The Prime Minister: Yes. Mr. Speaker. It was the Labour Government who ran away from introducing legislation to make insider trading a criminal offence. It was this Government who have done so much about it. With regard to the takeover panel, a review has been announced. If hon. Gentlemen wish me to prejudge that review, I will not do so. If practitioners do not respect the system, we shall replace it with one making greater use of statutory powers and sanctions.
    Mr. Beith: Will the Prime Minister find time to take a personal interest in the question of issuing free disposable syringes to diabetics? Does she agree that it would be morally wrong to deny disposable syringes to those who have no choice but to inject themselves daily for the rest of their lives when she is able to find the resources to make disposable syringes available for drug addicts so as to prevent AIDS?
    The Prime Minister: I already have a number of letters on that subject and I am giving considerable attention to it.
    Mr. Gow: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have heard my right hon. Friend he Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that last night the leader of the Liberal party and the leader of the Social Democratic parties voted in opposite Lobbies—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot see that that has anything to do with me.
    Mr. Gow: If you look at the Official Report, Mr. Speaker, you will see that. Surely there must be some mistake.

J. E. Hanger and Co. Ltd.
3.32 pm
Mr. Frank Dobsonasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the latest developments in the industrial dispute at J. E. Hanger and Co. Ltd., artificial limb maker.
The Minister for Social Security and the Disabled (Mr. John Major): The industrial dispute at J. E. Hanger & Co. Ltd. has centred on the company's manufacturing facility at Roehampton, one of 23 Hanger establishments throughout the country. There has been no sign of the dispute spreading to other Hanger establishments or to the other intermed limb companies Vessa and Kellie of Dundee.
I understand that yesterday, following weekend discussions at ACAS, proposals for the settlement of the dispute were put to a mass meeting of the company's former employees at Roehampton by national officials of the Furniture, Timber and Allied Trades Union and of the Technical Advisory and Supervisory Section of the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers.
It is not clear whether the national officials recommended acceptance of the proposals, although they had resulted from discussions between the unions at national level and the company. In any event, the local work force apparently rejected the proposals on a public ballot at a mass meeting.
Following this rejection, the company issued a statement that it now proposed to make alternative manufacturing arrangements to continue its service—although Roehampton is to remain the headquarters of the company and will continue to operate a clinic and repair service only.
The Government's primary interest is to ensure that a prompt and efficient limb service remains available to patients. Accordingly, last night I invited the managing director of J. E. Hanger to meet me this morning to discuss how this might be maintained. I made it clear at that meeting that I expected every action to be taken to protect patient service and clear the current backlog.
In order to achieve this I sought and obtained a number of assurances this morning. First, it has been agreed that a joint team will be established immediately between the Department and the company so that we may monitor the service to patients and ensure that urgent cases receive priority treatment. This is in addition to the procedures I established last October.
Secondly, I have received detailed assurances that alternative facilities are available to cope with the manufacture of those specialist limbs for adults and children that were previously undertaken at Roehampton. Such cases can, and will, be dealt with without delay.
Thirdly, I am assured that the specialist spare parts facility at Roehampton can be replicated elsewhere within the firm.
Fourthly, the company proposes to recruit an additional 80 staff throughout the country to maximise production capability, and this process is now well advanced.
This is a very regrettable dispute that could, and should, have been resolved. It has delayed some services to limb patients, although such delays are not widespread.
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Any patient facing difficulty should not hesitate to contact his local limb centre or my Department so that urgent action can be taken to deal with emergencies.
The Government will continue to regard the interests of patients as their first concern.
Mr. Dobson: That was a most unsatisfactory statment about a most unsatisfactory situation. It betrayed the continuing complacency of the Government and the pretence that, in some way or other, the dispute is not in any way their responsibility. I remind the Minister that the contract for the supply of limbs is not between J.E. Hanger and those who need limbs but between J.E. Hanger and the Government.
Will the Minister confirm from his Department's records that no fewer than 111 limb fitting appointments have had to be postponed because of the failure of the company until now to supply repaired or new prostheses on time, in breach of the contract that J.E. Hanger has with his Department? Will he confirm also that the number of patient attendances for fittings in the months affected by the dispute, compared with the number of attendances in the same months in the previous year, show that there were 487 fewer in October-November, 325 fewer in November-December and 145 fewer in December-January, giving a total of 957 fewer people getting fittings? Will he confirm also what I was told today, that the number of people getting primary fittings—that is, people who have just had an amputation and need a first fitting—has markedly declined? How has this reduction come about?
Are amputees being kept waiting, or are surgeons postponing amputations that can be postponed, even at some risk to patients? Is it not plain, from the history of this dispute, that the owner of Hanger, BTR, which every hon. Member was convinced was totally unfit to take over Pilkington, has demonstrated also that it is quite unfit to have a virtual monopoly of the supply and fitting of artificial limbs for people within the National Health Service? [HON. MEMBERS: "Is this a question?"] Yes.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that this is a private notice question, not a statement.
Mr. Dobson: It is an important matter.
Mr. Neil Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman does not have a leg to stand on.
Mr. Dobson: We could do without jokes from Conservative Members about my not having a leg to stand on. This is a serious matter.
When will the Minister, as a party to the contract for the supply of limbs, act to make sure that limbs are supplied to those who are entitled to get them? When will he talk not just to the managing director of J. E. Hanger? When will he show some impartiality and talk to representatives of the work force, to try to find a satisfactory solution to this dispute, instead of leaving them standing on the pavement when they would far rather be inside the factory doing what some of them have done for 20 years, and that is providing a good, decent and dedicated service to limbless people? When will the hon. Gentleman act and look after these people?
Mr. Major: I am in no single sense complacent about the difficulties created by the dispute. That is precisely why I set out a series of detailed actions to be taken last October. Those actions have been followed through on a

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daily basis since then. I regard the dispute as serious. I have made no secret of the fact that I wish to see this dispute resolved without delay.
The hon. Gentleman's figures are correct in broadly two cases out of the three that he cited. The number of appointments postponed over a period of 18 weeks is 112. That needs to be set against a total of some 3,000 appointments per week throughout the service during that period. There were about 420 fewer patient attendances rather than the 900, or so mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.
I am not aware of delays in primary fittings of the sort set out by the hon. Gentleman. However, it is precisely to ensure that that does not occur that I have established the extra procedure that I outlined in my statement. I wish to ensure that primary amputees and those in special need are given the priority treatment which both the hon. Gentleman and I wish to ensure they receive.
On the matter of complacency, if the hon. Gentleman cares to examine yet again the statement that I made in answer to his private notice question in October he will see a series of actions set out, which have been maintained, and I have built upon those today.
On the hon. Gentleman's final point, I have declined before, and I decline again, to take a stand in the dispute between employer and employee. I am prepared to discuss with those with whom we have a contract how they are to maintain the contract and meet it. That is what I am doing.
Mr. Roger Sims: Will my hon. Friend confirm that there are other companies which manufacture artificial limbs? Are we not reaching the point where their services should be used, rather than let patients suffer?
Mr. Major: I am aware of my hon. Friend's point. I reiterate that I am keeping the matter under careful review. The service to the patient remains my first concern.
Mr. Jack Ashley: Is the Minister aware that he is wrong when he says that he declines to take a stand between the employer and the work force, because this is not an industrial dispute? The Government are the sole customer of this firm, and it is the Minister's responsibility to intervene to obtain a settlement. A settlement could be achieved quite easily if the firm will accept the fundamental principle that no self-respecting trade unionist will go back to work while some of his fellow members are locked outside. That is what this firm is trying to do. If the Minister will accept that advice and intervene in the dispute, it can be settled, disabled people can be helped and they can get their limbs. He must intervene and not say that it is none of his business.
Mr. Major: I cannot accept the right hon. Gentleman's comments. It is an industrial dispute. It is precisely for that reason that at this Dispatch Box some time ago I urged the first reference to the Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service, which has repeatedly been in touch with both sides in the dispute, separately and collectively since that time. I cannot determine whether the dispute can be settled. It was certainly my understanding that a concordat had been reached between the national officers of the union and the company, and that it was at the local work place that that agreement was rejected.
Miss Janet Fookes: I have every confidence in my hon. Friend's ability to deal with this
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dispute. However, I urge him to look closely at other firms which may be able to supply the goods and services, and, if they do not exist, he should encourage them to be invented.
Mr. Major: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her remarks. She echoes some of the observations of the McColl report about monopoly supplying, and I take her remarks to heart.
Mrs. Elizabeth Shields: Has the Minister arranged for someone in his Department to take a personal interest in the dispute on a day-to-day basis so that we can look forward to a resolution of the conflict?
Mr. Major: I can give the hon. Lady the confirmation that she seeks. Several officials in my Department have direct day-to-day contact with the company and with the hon. Lady's proposition. I am receiving daily reports of the circumstances so that we may judge whether the dispute is capable of solution and take any action that may be helpful.
Mr. Roy Galley: Does not the dispute suggest a marked lack of compassion by a small number of workers and trade union officials for the least fortunate and most vulnerable section of our community? My hon. Friend is quite right not to intervene in the detailed matters of the dispute, and he has taken some positive and reasonable steps today to help further with the matter. I join my hon. Friends in urging him to take action soon to allow a greater element of competition in the contracting for this work.
Mr. Major: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. It is my firm judgment that a solution was available yesterday and I share the regret of my hon. Friend that the opportunity was not taken.
Mr. Alfred Dubs: Is the Minister aware that many people in the Hanger work force are ray constituents? There could not be a more dedicated work force in the country. These people have dedicated their lives to helping disabled people to benefit from artificial limbs. What the Minister has said is a tragedy, because, in effect, he has announced that the factory will be closed and that people who require limbs will no longer have them made adjacent to Queen Mary's hospital. Does that not mean that, inevitably, there will be a poorer standard of service for disabled people?
Mr. Major: My discussions this morning were precisely to ensure that the service throughout the country would not be poorer. If there is a tragedy, it is that a solution that was there yesterday has been rejected.
Mr. Patrick Thompson: Can my hon Friend assure me that the actions that he has taken, and the actions that he will take in future, will lead to more hope for families, especially families with growing children, who are being affected by this serious dispute? Can he offer hope to my constituents, the Elsegood family? Growing children need limb replacements at regular intervals. Whoever is at fault in this dispute, it is causing a great deal of distress and I appeal to my hon. Friend to do all that he can to bring it to a speedy conclusion.
Mr. Major: There is no doubt that in some cases this dispute is causing distress, worry and inconvenience—a dispute of this nature will do that. That is why it is imperative to have it resolved as speedily as possible. The

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people most seriously affected are those requiring primary limbs and those left without a limb. The emergency actions that we have taken ensure that people are not left immobilised. If any hon. Member hears of a case in which someone is immobilised, I hope that he will draw the case speedily and personally to my attention. Delays thus far appear to relate to replacement limbs, and although that is unsatisfactory, it is not as difficult a proposition as the unavailability of primary limbs.
Mr. Lewis Carter-Jones: Does the Minister agree that this dispute has probably more to do with McColl, the re-signing of the contract with the DHSS and the case now before the court about contracts? Does he not think that drastic needs require drastic action? Will he try to approach the chairman of BTR and tell him that this dispute is not doing his company any good at all?
Mr. Major: The whole House knows the hon. Gentleman's deep concern in this matter and of his long connection with the British Limbless Ex-Servicemen's Association. We admire his commitment to that cause. The reasons for this dispute are many and complex and it would be unwise of me to be drawn into them.
Mr. Richard Holt: Will my hon. Friend take it from me that my mother-in-law suffered as an amputee for 10 years because of an ill-fitting limb from that establishment? I have had a long association with the Furniture, Timber and Allied Trades Union, and there is written into that union's national agreement a binding arbitration system which ought to be invoked so that no more people are made to suffer because of the shortage of properly fitting limbs.
Mr. Major: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those helpful remarks.
Mr. Dave Nellist: First, will the Minister condemn the Tory MP who, when my hon. Friend asked his first question, joked about his not having a leg to stand on? That lowers the tone of any debate on a dispute like this. Secondly, will the Minister confirm his first answer, in which he spoke about the company recruiting, I think, 80 specialist workers? Will he confirm that no Department of the Government such as the Department of Employment, is involved in assisting this company to recruit strike breakers while the dispute is going on? Will he say that, from its monopoly position, a well-known, vitriolic, anti-union firm, BTR, is trying to destroy the trade union agreements at Hanger and that in its lust for profits it is trying to make sure that these suffering, disabled people have to wait all this time for replacement limbs? BTR is the guilty party in this dispute and the hon. Gentleman ought to condemn it.
Mr. Major: It would not be helpful or productive to deal with each of the hon. Gentleman's points in turn. He asked whether we proposed to employ fresh personnel. That is a matter for the company, not for me.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that this is a private notice question. I am sorry that I am unable to call any more hon. Members, but perhaps business questions will provide another opportunity.

Business of the House
3.49 pm
Mr. Neil Kinnock: May I ask the Leader of the House to tell us the business for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Biffen): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 2 FEBRUARY—There will be a debate on the Royal Navy on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
TUESDAY 3 FEBRUARY — Remaining stages of the Channel Tunnel Bill.
Motions relating to the Dockyard Services (Devonport) (Designation and Appointed Day) Order and the Dockyard Services (Rosyth) (Designation and Appointed Day) Order.
WEDNESDAY 4 FEBRUARY—Until about Seven o'clock, Second Reading of the Rate Support Grants Bill.
Afterwards, Second Reading of the Parliamentary and Health Service Commissioners Bill.
Motions on the Rent (Relief from Phasing) Order and the Protected Shorthold Tenancies (Rent Registration) Order.
THURSDAY 5 FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Social Fund (Maternity and Funeral Expenses) Bill.
Motion on the Education (Northern Ireland) Order.
The Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed private business for consideration at Seven o'clock.
FRIDAY 6 FEBRUARY—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY 9 FEBRUARY—Until Seven o'clock, Private Members' Motions.
Remaining stages of the Social Fund (Maternity and Funeral Expenses) Bill.
Mr. Kinnock: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman.
Before I consider matters of future business, will the right hon. Gentleman have a word with his hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton) about his interjection during questions by my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) a few moments ago? The hon. Gentleman used words which would be deeply offensive to those affected by the J. E. Hanger lockout.
The House will recall that on Tuesday, before the Government conceded on the matter of your ruling, Mr. Speaker, and decided that the issue should be referred to the Committee of Privileges, the Leader of the House spoke on behalf of the Government, resisting that proposition. That was a somewhat invidious position for a parliamentarian such as the Leader of the House to be placed in. However, to his credit, he conveyed the impression strongly to the Opposition that neither his heart nor his head favoured the Government's motion, although his voice was obliged to favour it.
Can the Leader of the House confirm that I am right in believing that, as Chairman of the Committee of Privileges, he now wants to act thoroughly but expeditiously to resolve the matter? When is the Committee to meet to consider your ruling, Mr. Speaker? Can the Leader of the House estimate when a report will be produced and debated in the House?
Can the Leader of the House tell us, in this the United Nations Year of Shelter for the Homeless, when we will be

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able to debate that problem, especially in the absence of any significant Government policy to assist the growing number of homeless people in this country?
There is growing concern about the Government's neglect of community carers in our society. There are 1·25 million people caring for severely or very severely disabled people at home. Can the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the House has an early opportunity, in Government time, to debate this growing crisis, which is severely affecting the most deprived sections of the community?
When will we have an opportunity to debate the Layfield report on the Sizewell B inquiry? As the construction of a PWR nuclear power station at Sizewell will have huge public expenditure implications, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the least the Government can do is to arrange for full consideration of the expenditure implications by the appropriate Committee of the House?
Mr. Biffen: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the points that he has made. With regard to his first point, the House is a mercurial place. Comments are made, some formal, some informal, and things are often said quickly, and in a moment which, upon reflection, one may have wanted to say differently. The House is also a charitable place, and we should leave the matter there.
As I have referred to charity, I want to refer to the charming but wholly incorrect interpretation that the right hon. Gentleman placed upon last Tuesday's debate and my modest part in it. He will understand that there are conventions which very properly affect the handling of next week's business in relation to the activities of Committees upstairs. I am anxious to help the House. Perhaps I may have a more liberal interpretation of that and allow myself to say that I very much hope that the Committee of Privileges will meet next week.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: The right hon. Gentleman sounds a bit more confident than he did last Tuesday.
Mr. Biffen: There is nothing in Hansard to record that.
Mr. Skinner: There is now.
Mr. Biffen: I should like now to consider the two important social topics which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned—the homeless and community care services. These are matters which can be pursued through the usual channels, and I hope he will think that they could possibly be topics for an Opposition day.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising the important question of Sizewell. I hope that it will be possible to arrange a debate on the Sizewell report in the week commencing 23 February. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy has told me that he intends to make a decision on the Central Electricity Generating Board's application as soon as possible thereafter.
Mr. Terence Higgins: Rather than spend more time on the Floor of the House discussing the rights and responsibilities of Select Committees, will my right hon. Friend now confirm that the conventions regarding inquiry into security matters have been well established under his predecessor and have worked well? At the same time, does he agree that, from time to time, the Defence Select Committee has had classified information relevant to its inquiries and that its record of maintaining confidentiality, if necessary by the traditional sidelining
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procedure, has been impeccable? That being so, does my right hon. Friend agree that the sooner we get back to business as normal, the better?
Mr. Biffen: I can wholeheartedly confirm the conventions to which my right hon. Friend has referred. I am grateful to him, as Chairman of the Liaison Committee, for reminding us of them. I believe that those conventions have been honoured by both sides and that the work of the Select Committees has benefited from them. I agree that the sooner we get back to business as usual, the better.
Mr. David Alton: I thank the Leader of the House for the assurance that there will be a debate on the Sizewell report. Does he think that this is an issue which might properly be put before the electorate, come a general election, and that the decision should perhaps be postponed until after a general election? Will the housing debate on Wednesday consist of two separate debates, or one?
Mr. Biffen: Perhaps I can consider the hon. Gentleman's second point. Whenever he asks for two debates within a motion, I suppose that there is to be one for one party and another for the other. I suggest that the scope for procrastination over Sizewell is almost endless. We have gone on for years before reaching this point, when a decision might properly be made. Any decision that is made will still have to be validated in reality at the general election.
Mr. Michael Mates: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Defence Select Committee is very grateful for confirmation that there was not, and is not, any intention to interfere with the proper work that it carries out for Parliament? Is he further aware that, unlike some hon. Members, who do not seem to care whether national security is harmed, I know that I speak for every member of my Committee when I say that nothing that we do or say, collectively or individually, will ever be done to harm or endanger national security, although the work that we have to do may not always be for the comfort of the Government of the day?
Mr. Biffen: I note and take comfort from what my hon. Friend has said.
Mr. Jack Ashley: I am sure that the Leader of the House will help on this issue if he can. Is he aware that there are a large number of severely disabled people, such as the mentally handicapped, autistic people and those who are deaf or blind, who need the mobility allowance but are not getting it because of a perverse court ruling? Legislation is not required to give it to them., only regulations are necessary, and it would not cost much. Will the Leader of the House see what he can do to ensure that a statement on the subject is made next week? If we get the regulations, all these people will get the mobility allowance and it would be a godsend to them.
Mr. Biffen: I take note of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I shall refer his points to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services.
Sir Kenneth Lewis: Has my right hon. Friend noted reports in the press that the Government's so-called A learn — I do not know whether my right hon. Friend is a member of it —is busy preparing an election manifesto? Will my right hon.

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Friend note that the Home Secretary once wrote a book entitled, "The End of Promises"? Those of us who are retiring from the House recommend to my right hon. Friend that, in an election manifesto, we leave the making of promises to the Labour party, which will not be able to keep them, and that we have the minimum of promises in our election manifesto.
Mr. Biffen: As I understand it, by the discipline of our trade we are supposed to be unaware of the committee to which my hon. Friend referred. However, an end to promises would be an excellent theme for a balanced ticket.
Mr. Eric S. Heffer: The issue of national security is a matter of opinion, and the opinion of Conservative hon. Members may not necessarily be the opinion of all hon. Members, even on the right hon. Gentleman's side of the House, and it is certainly not the opinion of many Opposition Members. Action was taken against the New Statesman and an individual journalist, and pressure was applied to the BBC, and this raises the question of the future of the freedom of the press. In view of those matters, and quite apart from the matters that are connected with what has happened in this House and with the rights of the House, can the Leader of the House assure us that there will be a debate on this issue at the earliest possible moment so that we can thrash these things out in the House, which is the proper place for doing so?
Mr. Biffen: The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised if I say that I strongly contest much of the preface to his request for a debate. I realise that there is general interest in the House on these matters, but I can offer no prospect of a debate in Government time in the near future.
Mr. Eric Forth: Does my right hon. Friend recall that no Liberal Member was present to take part in last night's important debate? That may account for the fact that the Liberal party and the Social Democratic party managed to vote in different Lobbies. Can my right hon. Friend arrange for a re-run of last night's debate so that Liberal Members can participate in, and listen to, the debate, because that might help them to make up their minds on how they want to vote?
Mr. Biffen: Absolutely not. I would not dream of making such a gesture to enable second-turn thoughts to be asserted. The alliance parties were not much present in the debate, but knew perfectly well that they had to be present in the Division Lobbies, and they have shown the consequences. They have given us a foretaste of what life would be like in a no-majority Parliament, in which they would not have the cohesion of a single group.
Mr. Roland Boyes: Is the Leader of the House aware that my constituency is part of the borough of Sunderland and that today I have been informed by the careers office of the latest unemployment figures? There are about 2,067 unemployed people and 3,300 on special schemes, but there are only 44 vacancies in the entire borough of Sunderland. If one estimates that there are about 30,000 unemployed people and that the cost is £6,000 per unemployed person, that means that £200 million a year is being poured down the drain, when it could be paying for jobs for those people, and especially for unemployed youngsters. It is a scandal that people are
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kept unemployed, with a long-term risk to health, when the money is available to create jobs in my constituency. May we have an early debate on the scandal of youth unemployment?
Mr. Biffen: The hon. Gentleman has portrayed a situation which I well understand exists in certain constituencies which have been affected by the decline of the heavy engineering base of the national economy. However, I remind him that we debated that matter only a few days ago. In the absence of another debate in the near future, the hon. Gentleman might wish to seek to make his point at Question Time next Tuesday.
Sir John Biggs-Davison: Has my right hon. Friend studied the early-day motion on the subject of identity cards for all the population?
[That this House notes the use of identity cards in various Commonwealth, European and other countries, and the requirement in Northern Ireland that driving licences shall carry the driver's photograph,. believes that the universal issue of identity cards in the United Kingdom would assist the prevention and detection of crime, including social security fraud and illegal immigration and that, far from lessening civil liberty, it would protect the law-abiding from troublesome and unnecessary inquiries by police and security officers; and therefore urges the Secretary of State for the Home Department to consider the early introduction of identity cards bearing the holder's photograph.]
Despite the dismissive written answer that I received from the Home Office, will my right hon. Friend ask our right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to consider the matter afresh, bearing in mind that the Home Office sometimes changes its mind, as it did on the issue of crossbows?
Mr. Biffen: My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will answer questions on Thursday, and my hon. Friend might seek to make his point on that occasion.
Mr. Ken Weetch: Can the Leader of the House inform us whether there is any prospect of the Second Reading debate on the Leasehold Reform Bill coming to the House? Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that in the Gracious Speech it was promised that that would be part of the Government's legislative programme? I should not like to see that Bill fall as a casualty to an early election. Is there any prospect of the Bill coming before the House, and if so, when?
Mr. Biffen: Leaving aside unseemly speculation about the date of an election, I shall consider that point and possibly get in touch with the hon. Gentleman about it.
Mr. James Couchman: Will my right hon. Friend give the House an early opportunity to consider the Audit Commission's report on local government, especially that part which concerns central London? The report highlights the grotesque inefficiency and incompetence, and the bureaucratic muddle and meddle, in certain inner London boroughs compared with boroughs in outer London, even those which are Labour-controlled, and especially with district councils elsewhere in the country.
Mr. Biffen: I understand the point that my hon. Friend is making, and it is one of general interest. I should have thought that, subject to your judgment, Mr. Speaker, it would be possible to make many of the remarks related to the Audit Commission's report on the Second Reading of the Rate Support Grants Bill.
Mr. Clive Soley: I understand that Mr. Alasdair Milne of the BBC has just announced his resignation. We know little detail as yet, but, in view of the Government's recent involvement with several BBC matters of some contention, will the Leader of the House consider making a statement in the near future?
Mr. Biffen: I am not sure whether the implication was that the Government had in some way been involved in Mr. Alasdair Milne's resignation. This is a matter for Mr. Milne and the governors of the BBC. However, I shall consider the hon. Gentleman's point.
Mr. Andrew MacKay: My right hon. Friend has already been good enough to convey to the House the provisional date for the recess. Can he go a shade further and give us the date on which the House will return, because then—correct me if I am wrong—the dates for Questions to Departments can be published and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) can check his luncheon engagements and turn up for Treasury Questions?
Mr. Biffen: That is an interesting reason why I should undertake what has been requested. I shall consider the matter, because I wish to help the House as much as I can in such matters. However, I think the important piece of information is about when we shall start the recess.
Mr. Greville Janner: Will the Leader of the House be good enough to refer to the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister the remarkable Scottish television programme, "Tonight", about war crimes, especially the allegations made in it against Antanas Gecas, who lives in Scotland, and the remarkable and shocking documents that have hitherto been secret, but which are produced on that programme? Will the right hon. Gentleman then ask for a statement from the Home Secretary, and also from the Prime Minister, who, in her letter to me of 7 November 1986, promised an early reply to the investigations that were being made into the alleged presence of war criminals in this country, but no substantive reply has as yet been received?
Mr. Biffen: The hon. and learned Gentleman raises matters with which he has been closely identified over a period of time, and I have had some occasion to learn further of them. I have also heard the rebuttal by the gentlemen in Scotland. I shall, of course, draw the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and that of the Prime Minister to the request that the hon. and learned Gentleman has made.
Mr. David Gilroy Bevan: Further to the reference by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Sir J. Biggs-Davison) to early-day motion No. 439, which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary had the kindness to refer to as an important matter of principle this time last week, and bearing in mind that it is intended to help, in every possible way, in the restoration of law and order by introducing identity cards with photo passes, will my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House now make certain that, as nearly 50 Members have signed this important motion, we have an early chance to debate the matter in the House?
Mr. Biffen: I have to be candid with my hon. Friend and say that I do not see any prospect of Government time
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being available for an early debate. Therefore, he should try such opportunities as are available through the private resources of hon. Members.
Mr. Skinner: Is the Leader of the House aware that it would be worth while to have a debate on the Audit Commission's report on local authorities, including those in London? This would enable many hon. Members to explain precisely, in some cases using John Banham's words, that the real reason for the problem is the near £17,000 million that has been withdrawn from local authorities during the Tory Government's period of office. If we had that debate, we would be able to show that it was not creative accountancy that was causing the trouble. Local authorities are merely doing what the Government did last September when they got involved, by borrowing $400,000 million on the exchange markets, to look after their foreign reserves. What is right for the Government should be right for local authorities.
As to the Liberals and their voting last night, I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman is getting so het up. They were just using the opportunity to show what tactical voting is all about.
Mr. Biffen: Whom God has divided let no voter put together.
I note the somewhat ungenerous, contentious and, in my view, inaccurate observations about Government policy, but, in terms of the procedures for next week, all these matters can, within reason, come within the ambit of the Second Reading of the Rate Support Grants Bill. The hon. Gentleman, with his recognised subtlety in these matters, should be able to make a speech.
Mr. Harry Greenway: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have received a most moving and courageous letter from the alleged victim in the Ealing vicarage rape case of last June? This is a serious matter. She has asked me publicly to draw attention to her strong view that the law needs to be reformed to protect alleged rape victims before charges are brought. As the matter comes up at the Old Bailey on 2 February, and in view of the importance of the issue, may we have an early statement from my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, so that the matter can be pursued vigorously?
Mr. Biffen: My hon. Friend makes an exceedingly serious point. Clearly, any change in the law would proceed only after the House had given it careful and traditional consideration. I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to what my hon. Friend has said, and meanwhile he might wish to press the matter at Question Time next Thursday.
Mr. Paddy Ashdown: With regard to the events of last night, is the Leader of the House not aware that my hon. Friend the Chief Whip of the Liberal party —[Interruption.] I shall stay here until I am heard. My hon. Friend the Chief Whip of the Liberal party has bluntly, plainly and honestly admitted that was a mistake. I am sorry to disabuse the Leader of the House, but it has no greater significance than that. In view of the catalogue of mismanagement, blunder and bungle that has characterised this Government, does the Leader of the House realise that such criticisms come strangely from him? Has he no shame
Mr. Biffen: If I had any shred of shame, I should not be following this profession. As to the other point, it was Lloyd George who said that politics are too serious to be left to amateurs.
Mr. Michael Hirst: Has my right hon. Friend noted early-day motion No. 467:
[That this House is gravely disturbed at the announcement of the closure of the Caterpillar plant in Uddingston, which will threaten the employment of the 1,221 workforce, within weeks of the company accepting an offer of government financial support; welcomes the statement by the Secretary of State for Scotland that Her Majesty's Government is prepared to discuss further ways to help to save the plant and the jobs; and expresses the hope that, in the light of the assurances given by the Secretary of State for Scotland, the United States management of Caterpillar will now reverse the decision to close the plant.]
The motion is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) and is supported by all his Scottish Back-Bench Friends. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the United States management of Caterpillar, weeks after accepting an offer of substantial Government support for a major investment programme at Uddingston, abruptly cancelled that and closed the plant? In view of the importance of this matter to the west of Scotland, will my right hon. Friend make time for a debate on it?
Mr. Biffen: I take note of what my hon. Friend has said, and I endorse the seriousness of the situation that he outlined. I cannot see the immediate prospect of a debate in Government time, but this matter might be considered for an Adjournment debate.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: In view of the Leader of the House's emollient answer to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Defence, the hon. Member for Hampshire, East (Mr. Mates), will the right hon. Gentleman reflect on these accusations against certain Members of Parliament being not so careful about matters of security? Will he take aside the Prime Minister, who complains about ferrets, and say quite gently that ferrets are bred by those who are economical with the truth? People start ferreting on sensitive issues because they are not told the full truth.
Will the Leader of the House cast his mind back to those far-off days when Prime Ministers answered Questions properly, and reflect on the House of Commons issue in question No. 1, not an open question, but a specific question in detail, which had been on the Order Paper for 14 long days? Could not the Prime Minister have got herself properly briefed? If Prime Ministers make mistakes during Question Time, should they not come the following week to the House and, if there has been an error and they have been given the wrong information by security sources, or whoever, frankly say that, in the light of new information, such as I gave the Prime Minister in a three-page dossier, carefully put together by Dr. Richard Ware and Mr. Chris Bowlby of the Library and other sources, there has been an error? If she is wrong, could she come next week and say so? If she disagrees with the Library statement and the West German sources, should she not also say so?
Mr. Biffen: As to the first point, the exchange had the purpose of underlining the excellent record that there has been of the observance of security and intelligence
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constraints and restrictions by the Select Committee, and it is no bad thing that that point is again read into the record. As to the second point, I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's strictures against my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, but I shall of course see that her attention is drawn to his points.
Mr. Michael Brown: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his answer to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer)? Surely we need a debate in Government time. I recommend that such a motion, if he is able to agree to such a debate, should convey all the sentiments of the Leader of the Opposition, so that we can find out how many of his hon. Friends would support it.
Mr. Biffen: I understand the significance of the subject and the compelling interest that it should be taken in Government time, but that is a scarce commodity. I know that my hon. Friend has a debate on Monday week, so perhaps he might choose this topic.
Mr. David Winnick: In view of the reported resignation of the Director-General of the BBC, does the Leader of the House recognise that, rightly or wrongly, many people will connect that with the relentless pressure by Tory central office and the Government on the BBC? As so many people, of all political views, are rather sick and tired of the attempt to make the BBC an agency of the Tory party, does the Leader of the House recognise that a statement is required?
Mr. Biffen: The hon. Gentleman makes a repugnant observation, which I reject. I can go no further than the remarks that I have already made.
Mr. Jonathan Aitken: Will my right hon. Friend cast his mind back to last summer, when he came to the Dispatch Box to explain away a timetable published by the Department of Transport which forecast that the Channel Tunnel Bill would receive the Royal Assent by December? Now that this piece of legislation is limping towards its Report stage in February and faces a hard-fought passage in the other place, with petitions and Select Committees still to come, will my right hon. Friend give the House guidance on what the Government's policy will be should Parliament be prorogued for a spring or summer general election before the Bill has received the Royal Assent, if, indeed, it is going to do so?
Mr. Biffen: I certainly cannot do so from the Dispatch Box this afternoon in the context of the debate that is to take place next week, but I take to heart my hon. Friend's point.
Mr. Edward Leigh: Should my right hon. Friend not show more charity to the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), because we know that it was simply a mistake when the leader of the Liberal party in solemn conclave disagreed with the leaders of SDP so publicly over nuclear policy? When considering the formation of the alliance, should we not show the same charity as the bishop showed the nun when she said, "It was just a mistake"?
Mr. Biffen: The scope for analogy in this affair is almost endless, and every Member can undertake it to his own satisfaction. I wish to be charitable to the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), so let me finally observe that I deeply regret that he has had to make all his

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remarks in the total absence of the SDP. Not one Member of that party has lingered to hear that soul-searching and breast-beating.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. what's-his-name?—Bruinvels.
Mr. Peter Bruinvels: I can confirm that I am standing up, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: My sincere apologies. We all make mistakes.
Mr. Bruinvels: We have all heard, Mr. Speaker the mistakes on the Liberal side.
Will my right hon. Friend look most carefully at council house provision for the 1990s and after the year 2000? Is it not welcome that more than 62 per cent. of council tenants have bought their own homes? Therefore, may we have a debate on whether more council houses should be built? I appreciate that the Labour party likes council houses because it tries to trap its voters in them, but for the rest of the community and the very caring people who are in council houses, should council houses not be repaired rather, than new ones built? If my right hon. Friend looks at Leicester and the Hamilton area of my constituency, he will find that 4,000 council houses may be located there, despite the fact that the majority of my constituents are oposed to them. I appreciate that the council has 34,000 council houses already and wants to increase its majority, but will my right hon. Friend encourage people to come to the House to debate the role of "buying your own house and the future of private house building in the year 2000."?
Mr. Biffen: I shall take account of that request, and clearly it will be considered with many others when planning the programme for the coming weeks. In the meantime, I should have thought that my hon. Friend had a sporting chance of relating local authority housing to the rate support grants issue.
Mr. Tim Yeo: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Lewis Carol verse—from which the title of the alliance policy document, "The Time has Come", is taken, contains some valuable suggestions for future debates in the House? The lines run:
"'The time has come,' the Walrus said"
—I believe that this is a reference to the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins)
"'To talk of many things: Of shoes—and ships—and sealing wax—Of cabbages—and kings ."
I believe that it was at the insistence of the leader of the Liberal party that the reference should be to "kings", but it is the last two lines that are crucial. They say:
"And why the sea is boiling hot—and whether pigs have wings"
It way be that those are issues upon which the alliance could demonstrate its unity.
Mr. Biffen: Yes.
Mr. Patrick Nicholls: Will my right hon. Friend find time next week for a debate to consider the constitutional implications of the matters raised by Lord Chapple in an article in the Daily Mail today, in which he called upon the Leader of the Opposition to resign his leadership of the Labour party to his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith). While Lord Chapple was probably unrealistic—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must ask about the business for next week.
Mr. Nicholls: Will my right hon. Friend consider a debate on the circumstances relating to those Members of the House, other than members of the Government. who draw public salaries? Would that not provide an opportunity to discuss the matters raised by Lord Chapple? Even if it is too much to expect the leader of the Labour party to go quietly—bearing in mind the recent incident outside an Indian restaurant—there would be opportunities to consider the implications.
Mr. Biffen: That is an interesting point, but I ask my hon. Friend to take heart. Under our existing procedures, those are precisely the sorts of things that we are talking about every day of the week.
Mr. Frank Cook: May I support the request of the hon. Gentleman—what's-his-name?—for a debate on council housing, so that we can also refer to those who have purchased council housing and are now being threatened with eviction because of the change in the regulation covering mortgage interest payments?
Mr. Biffen: I note what the hon. Gentleman has said. He will appreciate that in my reply I explained that local authority housing might conceivably fall within the ambit of the debate next Wednesday. The hon. Gentleman is now trying to extend it to issues for which I can hold out no prospect of time in the near future.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Is the Leader of the House aware that yesterday I communicated on a private basis to the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), the name of a licensed security dealer in the City who was trading fraudulently, where investors were at risk and where I believed that no action was being taken by the Government? Is the Leader of the House aware that Department of Trade officials are today denying that they had knowledge of those matters, when I have clear proof that they have known for at least eight or nine weeks? Will he ask the Minister responsible to come to the Dispatch Box and make a full statement, so that the position of investors can be cleared up?
Mr. Biffen: This is the first that I have heard of the matter, because I was not in the debate yesterday, but I will draw my hon. and learned Friend's attention to the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised.

National Security
4.27 pm
Mr. Patrick Nicholls: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and urgent matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the breach of national security posed by the Welsh Campaign for Civil Liberties' intention to show to a public audience the BBC film 'The Secret Society, Project Zircon' this Saturday."
The matter is specific because it has already been revealed in the press—specifically in the Western Mail yesterday—that a time and place have been fixed for the showing of the film—Saturday 31 January at 6 pm in a club in Warnaby street, Cardiff.
The matter is urgent because it has been agreed on all sides that the showing and contents of that film represent a breach of national security. It is quite clear that this is a subject for urgent debate, because not only has it been said on the Conservative Benches that the showing of that film would be a breach of national security, but it has even been agreed by the Leader of the Opposition, despite his usual record on matters of national security, that the showing of that film would represent a real breach of security. A debate upon this subject would enable us to consider the fact that, although the Government have used all available legal remedies to stop the showing of the film, it may still be shown legally. That shows that there is a gap in the law which requires urgent legislation. If the Leader of the Opposition is to maintain the position that he has previously taken, his co-operation should be sought to enable that legislation to be passed.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the breach of national security posed by the Welsh Campaign for Civil Liberties' intention to show a public audience the BBC film 'The Secret Society, Project Zircon' this coming Saturday."
I listened with great care to what the hon. Member has said, but I regret that I do not consider that the matter that he has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 20, and I cannot, therefore, submit his application to the House.

European Community
Mr. Speaker: Before the Minister rises, I must tell the House that I have not selected either of the two amendments on the Order Paper. However, the arguments that they contain may be pursued during the course of the debate.
4.29 pm
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mrs. Lynda Chalker): I beg to move,
That this House takes note of the White Paper on Developments in the European Community, January to June 1986 (Cmnd. 9911); and supports the emphasis which the Government placed during the United Kingdom Presidency on developing Community policies of practical benefit to industry, business and the consumer.
At the outset, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the House would wish to be informed that agreement was reached early this morning between the European Commission and the United States over the trade effects of enlargement. The agreement has yet to be formally confirmed on both sides, but I am confident that it will be. Of course, the immediate point for the United Kingdom is that the threatened trade war will be avoided. This will be welcome to all hon. Members especially those who have written to me and my colleagues expressing concern at the effects on our exporters if agreement was not reached.
There will be no increases in United States tariffs on gin or other exports from the European Community. The European Community has confirmed its offer of a reduced levy quota for corn and sorghum exports to Spain, mainly from the United States, plus some other lesser concessions, and agreement has been reached on that basis.
This outcome has been possible because of the skill and tenacity with which the Community has negotiated. It is an obvious and practical demonstration of the way in which our combined negotiating weight in the Community can defend British interests in a way that we could not hope to do on our own. It also shows the effectiveness of the approach that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and I have consistently urged on the Commission and on our colleagues in the Council of Ministers.
The Community has made clear throughout its determination to work wholeheartedly for a settlement. It has also made it clear that if the United States proceeded with any unilateral raising of tariffs, the Community would be ready to respond in defence of our interests. It is that which helped to bring agreement in this dispute, as in the earlier negotiations of equal importance to us over access to the United States market for steel products. In accordance with the mandate laid down by the Council of Ministers, Commissioner De Clercq has negotiated well and effectively on the Community's behalf and deserves our congratulations.
The growing United States global deficit, estimated at $170 billion in 1986, has made the negotiations particularly difficult. The Community will need to be equally firm over the protectionist measures passed by the last Congress on which action is already being taken in the general agreement on tariffs and trade. Those could affect a considerable volume of British trade. Both the Community and the United States are committed to avoid new protectionist actions by the agreement which launched the Uruguay round, and it is essential that both should honour that commitment.

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Here too, the House will wish to know that a further agreement has been reached today in Geneva on the procedures which will enable the Uruguay round negotiations, launched at Punta del Este, to begin in earnest. Their success will be vital to preserving the open trading system on which this country depends. The further liberalisation of world trade is as important to our prosperity and the creation of jobs as the creation of the internal market within the EC. The House will agree that those are important themes of the White Paper with which I shall now deal.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: Was any cash compensation for the United States included in the agreement with the United States, which I am sure everyone will welcome, and, if so, how much?
Mrs. Chalker: I may return to the figures when I reply to the debate, but I understand that the cost is minimal compared with even a short period of a trade war. We shall publish the details in the Official Report.
The White Paper describes in detail the situation in the Community up to the moment when the Government took over the presidency in July last year. In the first half of the year Spain and Portugal joined the Community, a significant achievement for their democracies. The Single European Act, amending the treaty of Rome, was also signed. In April a somewhat shorter but no less vital negotiation in the Agriculture Council resulted in a tough but necessary CAP price fixing, including important reforms. A new production tax on cereals, a cut in dairy quotas and big price cuts for Mediterranean products were included in that. A new action programme for the internal market was agreed and some significant measures were adopted — for instance, on transmission standards for direct broadcasting by satellite. Those are dealt with in full in the White Paper.
All the same, a number of difficult and unresolved issues awaited the start of our presidency last July. On EC-United States trade there were problems on steel, citrus and pasta, and on the effects of enlargement; disagreement with Japan over access to her markets; renegotiation of New Zealand's dairy trade agreement; and the opening of a new GATT round to set the pattern of world trade for the next decade.
Nearer home, the Community had no budget for 1986. Despite the price freeze in April, the costs of the common agricultural policy were increasing as a result of the fall in the value of the dollar which determines the world price of most agricultural products. Therefore, as with all presidencies, much of the agenda was set by the obligations that those problems placed on us. But there were opportunities as well as obligations.
First of all, there was an opportunity to achieve further reform of the common agricultural policy. Such reforms are traditionally achieved at the annual price fixing at the first half of the year. In last year's price fixing the Council had agreed to introduce a co-responsibility levy on cereals coupled with a tightening of intervention criteria. We were determined to build on those decisions and not to lose the momentum achieved at the June European Council when Heads of Government expressed their determination to bring Community agricultural prices closer to those of the world market. Therefore, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary told the House on 5 March —at columns 176–77—we concentrated our efforts on
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further reform, in particular in two key sectors, milk and beef, where expenditure was running at a combined total of over £6 billion a year and where surpluses were at record levels.
Secondly, after a lengthy period of institutional introspection, we were determined to show that institutional reform could be put to practical use for the benefit of the Community's citizens. We had identified four significant areas for action. First, there was the internal market, where the lack of common rules has placed this country at a disadvantage compared with our competitors in the rest of the Community. Secondly, we wanted progress on air transport and in shipping. We wanted cheaper services and better access to them. We wanted protection for Community shipping in its dealings with third countries and open access to Community coastal trade.
Thirdly, we wanted specific measures to help small business and to promote employment growth. All the member Governments of the Community, of Left or Right, were agreed on one overall economic strategy. But at that time there was no coherent plan for bringing together the action against unemployment which was being taken in each member state. Fourthly, there was action at the Community level to deal with the problems of terrorism, crime and traffic in drugs.
Dr. Norman A. Godman: The second area to which the hon. Lady referred included coastal shipping. How far have the discussions on cabotage advanced? Shall we see a greater input into British coastal traffic by British vessels in the near future?
Mrs. Chalker: We have so opened up the cabotage proposals that that should indeed be so. I may deal with that in greater detail when I reply to the debate.
Let me explain why action in those four areas was so important for Britain. Of the 48 internal market measures agreed during our presidency a number were of obvious practical benefit to the public — for instance, the agreement on maximum noise levels for motorbikes which will help to reduce a serious public nuisance; the agreement on standards for fire safety in hotels, an important protection for travellers; agreement on permitted food additives, improving safety standards for the consumer and the introduction, largely under United Kingdom instigation, of proposals governing toy safety in the Community.
A number of the other measures taken were of less immediate benefit to the consumer but of obvious benefit to industry — for example, the directive requiring compatible standards for direct broadcasting by satellite; the agreement on a standardised tractor control layout and standardised pedal layout for forklift trucks. Each of those agreements alone may seem only a small step towards the completion of the common market in goods and services. But each is important for our industry and each is a positive step forward. After all, the European tractor market alone is worth £130 million a year to our exporters.
The internal market is not just about breaking down existing barriers to trade. Our aim is to avoid the creation of barriers in new industries. That is why our action programme focused on the new technologies. We secured agreement to more open rules for public purchasing;

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agreement on the use of European standards for the purchase of information technology and telecommunications equipment and on advanced data network systems.
In air transport, we had already shown, through bilateral agreements, that liberalisation could lead to a dramatic reduction in air fares and an increase in new services. By the end of our presidency we had secured majority support for two significant changes in the organisation of Communitywide aviation.
The first is a shift to new capacity sharing arrangements that will improve competition between the carriers. The shift is not as much as we would like but it represents a major change from the deadlock of earlier years that I remember only too well. There has also been an opening up of routes between hub and regional airports—for instance, the service between Paris and Bradford. Those are significant advances.
The next and major priority must be air fares. We want airlines to be free to set fares and conditions according to their commercial judgment.
Mr. George Foulkes: Such as services between London and Glasgow?
Mrs. Chalker: Between all areas of the Community. It is something that not all member states accept. At the beginning of our presidency only two states were in favour —Britain and the Netherlands—but by the end of our presidency seven member states accepted the proposals. I hope that when the Single European Act is implemented majority voting will enable those proposals to go through under the Belgian presidency.
The internal market measures are important, not only for business, not only for people, but for jobs. We are determined to do more in this respect.
Another genuine success has been in reducing the regulatory burden on small firms in this country, which is now being repeated across the Community. I read in today's Financial Times of the French campaign launched by Alain Madellin, the French Industry Minister, to reduce red tape and the burden of administration for French companies. That is happening across the Community. We require that all new proposals should be assessed for their impact on business and therefore on job creation. Existing regulations are also being re-examined.
During the presidency, we negotiated a £1 billion package of loans for small firms. We got proposals brought forward to increase the VAT exemption limit to £25,000. Those measures to help small business parallel to the steps outlined in the resolution agreed by the Social Affairs Ministers on employment growth. This was not just a United Kingdom initiative. It had the support from the outset of other member states and was discussed and eventually agreed with the European TUC. The measures provide a framework for proposals which the Commission will now bring forward covering the creation of new job opportunities, improved training and help for the long-term unemployed and for disadvantaged groups.
In addition there has been an intensification of European co-operation in the fight against terrorism and drugs; and new impetus has been given to co-operation in seeking better prevention and treatment of cancer and of AIDS. Those steps demonstrate that the Community is determined to work for its citizens. It has already started and that work will continue.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: I am sure that the Minister will recollect that in parliamentary questions and in correspondence I have raised with her and her colleagues at the Foreign Office the question of the European cancer initiative. What is being done regarding funding in Europe and help for centres of excellence—mostly universities and Medical Research Council units — in Britain? Some of us get the impression, perhaps wrongly, that the initiative is a great gimmick and that not very much is happening. Will we be persuaded that something is being done? Perhaps her parliamentary private secretary will bring her information by pigeon post.
Mrs Chalker: I had already heard, earlier this week in Brussels, that the Commission has agreed to bring forward new proposals which will be presented to Ministers at the next round of Council meetings. Although health is not my particular responsibility, I assure the hon. Gentleman that my colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Security have been pushing for such proposals. Those proposals are regarded with all seriousness, and I hope that when we are further down the track the hon. Gentleman will welcome those proposals.
We want to increase, not diminish, the personal liberty and choices of individual European citizens. The Government see the European Community as a vehicle for widening the scope for enterprise in Britain and Europe and for widening the freedom enjoyed by the people of Britain and Europe. As a country we have succeeded in loosening the dead hand of state control over individuals and enterprises.
Mr. Robert N. Wareing: Ask the local authorities.
Mrs. Chalker: As a continent we are succeeding in relaxing the grip exercised by other states.
That approach is shared by most of the rest of the developed world. A wind of popular enterprise is sweeping Europe. Two years ago, there were only 2 million small shareholders in Britain. There are now about five times that number. The story is the same all over Europe.
The European Community ensures that personal enterprise is allowed greater expression by letting it expand across national boundaries as well as flourishing at home. The difference it makes is that it creates more trade and more business, and that is the way we create enterprise.
Britain is a trading country. It must trade to survive. Europe is an excellent, stable and expanding market in which to do business. The rest of the Community agrees with us on an agenda which is increasingly devoted to realistic, immediate goals. They are tackling the problems of the CAP, achieving a fair trading relationship with the United States and Japan, completing the internal market and helping business and creating new jobs.
The record of the six months of our presidency gives us good reason to believe that these problems can be tackled successfully. In international trade the multilateral trade negotiations in the GATT were successfully launched. As we told the House last year, we secured agreement with the United States on steel, citrus and pasta. We have successfully renegotiated New Zealand's dairy trade agreement with the Community and we took vigorous action with Japan on discrimination in trade.
Far from neglecting the problems of the common agricultural policy, as has sometimes been alleged, we

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made reform of the beef and milk regimes a top priority of our presidency. A 3 per cent. cut in milk production had been agreed in April last year. In December we secured a further cut in production of more than double that amount and an effective cut in milk production of 9·5 per cent. over the next 15 months. In April we reached agreement on a price freeze for many agricultural products and in December we agreed an average price cut for beef of 13 per cent.
We know, of course, that further steps are needed to level the butter and beef mountains and that we need further cuts in cereal prices and a further reduction in the availability of intervention. We need a limit on the levels of guaranteed production, not just for products already in surplus, but for those such as vegetable fat crops which threaten to go into surplus if action is not taken. We must not only curtail the cost of individual agricultural commodities but achieve a mechanism to ensure that the Community budget alone does not bear the costs of surplus production.
Many of those arguments are familiar, but the Community has changed since the negotiations of the early 1980s. The case for CAP reform is now not just compelling but widely accepted. We must ensure that money devoted to Community policies gives added value over money devoted to national policies. We must ensure, too, that the structural funds address the needs of the unemployed and of areas of industrial decline. The reorganisation of those funds, which is called for under the Single European Act, gives us the opportunity to press ahead with those reforms.
I shall not disguise from the public the true state of the Community today. Significant problems remain, as they are bound to do in a Community of 12 nations, but the record is also one of solid achievement. I do not underestimate the task for the year ahead. There will be difficult negotiations on the future financing of the Community and the continued adaptation of the common agricultural policy, but in a year in which we achieved a record number of internal market agreements and a record level of CAP reform, we proved Britain's capacity to achieve results. There are many challenges ahead and there are many opportunities. We have begun a very great change. That change is embodied in the motion, which I commend to the House.
4.52 pm
Mr. George Robertson: Given the state of the Minister's health and of my own we should perhaps be talking about a common cold policy rather than a common agricultural policy.
There is something absurd about debating on 29 January 1987 developments in the European Community between January and June 1986, and it was notable that the Minister disposed of that and the preceding period in four and a half minutes before going on to the following six-month period and the British presidency. It cannot be beyond the wit of the Government to produce reports and arrange debates at earlier stages so that we can discuss matters that are real and relevant and a good deal more immediate than those before us today.
Perhaps the Government's view on this is similar to their attitude to the treaty of Rome. When I asked the Vote Office for a copy of that most fundamental of laws affecting this country, I was told that it was out of print and that there were no plans to reprint it. I was flabbergasted to receive such a reply in the very week when
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the Government were hosting the summit of all the Community nations. I therefore took the matter up with the Prime Minister, who replied five weeks later that the Stationery Office ought to have told me
"that the House of Commons library would in any case be able to supply photocopies for members."
The Services Committee might have something to say about the idea of the Library being asked to photocopy 900 pages.
Mrs. Chalker: As the hon. Gentleman well knows, when he acquainted me with the rather inept reply that he had received from the Vote Office, I made inquiries immediately. I was informed that the treaty was being reprinted to bring it up to date with the Single European Act. That is taking place. In the meantime, I think that to require all 900 pages for simultaneous study would be unusual, even with the hon. Gentleman's capacity. I hope that he will get those parts that he needs—or he can even borrow my copy.
Mr. Robertson: 1 am grateful to the Minister for that generous offer. I am sure that the Government have plenty of copies. Nevertheless, their unwillingness to print the basic law of the European Community gives us some idea of their commitment to the idea of European unity.
Among the many surprises—mainly of omission rather than inclusion—in the Minister's speech was the absence of any reference to Sir Henry Plumb. I had expected joyful cheers from the near empty Conservative Benches at the elevation of Sir Henry to the presidency of the European Parliament, albeit by a small majority, but perhaps the attitude today has something to do with the less than ecstatic response from No. 10 Downing street to Sir Henry's ideas. The Guardian perversely described him as "one of nature's diplomats", who was no sooner in post as President of the Parliament than he announced his conversion to an element of proportional representation in British Euro-elections. When one adds to that Sir Henry's belief in fiscal harmonisation and harmonisation of VAT in the Community, even if the Prime Minister feels that any Tory is better than no Tory, he is unlikely to receive much support from her for those ideas.
Mr. Stephen Dorrell: Does the hon. Gentleman support them?
Mr. Robertson: That question is a waste of time, as the answer is self-evident.
Before dealing with the major issues, I should stress two developments in the Community that are worthy of praise. First, I welcome the decision to convene a new conference on the middle east. Rarely has there been greater need for a new initiative to make a start on the sordid jungle of wars, threats of war, killings and kidnappings that are going on in that part of the world and could yet engulf us all. That was a proper decision for the Community to take.
Secondly, we should applaud the decision, albeit belated and characteristically slowly implemented, to distribute some of the ludicrous food stockpile to the old and the needy in this bitterly cold European winter. Some welcome should certainly be accorded to that.
Mr. Hugh Dykes: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Venice declaration remains the best international document on solving the middle east problem and that, if the conflicting parties would only accept some of the suggestions in that still valid document, there might be the beginnings of real peace in the area?
Mr. Robertson: I agree that the Venice declaration made a major contribution to progressing the argument, but it has taken the Community too long to get round to a new initiative. The priority now being given to the matter is therefore welcome.
The Minister talked about the British presidency of the Community, and no doubt there will be more of the propaganda parade of trivia that is being used to sell the tarnished British presidency. The Times described it as "lacklustre". The Financial Times said that the failure to tackle the main Community programmes was
"the result of deliberate policy by the United Kingdom Presidency"
and described the United Kingdom's record as "patchy."
An unnamed EEC official was quoted in another paper as saying:
"To some people it looks as if Britain has deliberately engineered a cash crisis so that the EC will be forced to take drastic measures—unfortunately, it falls to Belgium to deal with the crisis."
In June the Foreign Secretary said that he wanted the Community to
"make a real contribution to the lives of ordinary people."
But what was the result? The legacy of that six-month presidency is striking both in its failure and in the damage that it left behind for the Belgians to pick up.
First, there was the trade war with the Americans, which the Minister has mentioned. The fact that a last-minute face-saving device may well be found by the weekend by means of satellite-televised diplomats will not diminish the damage done to European-United States relations by the bitter and often near-hysterical exchanges across the Atlantic since November. No splitting of the difference at midnight on Saturday will wipe out the abuse and counter-abuse, as first the Americans threatened sanctions against their principal European allies and then the EEC made its justified and savage counter-threats.
Mrs. Chalker: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman listened to a word I said at the beginning. We worked consistently through the whole of the second half of last year, from the time that we settled the steel dispute, the citrus dispute, the pasta dispute—we cannot leave pasta out—to make sure that every mortal thing was done to avoid a trade war over the effect of the enlargement of the Community. Throughout the months of our presidency the Commissioner, Willy de Clercq, made repeated visits; so did some of the Americans and so did the Ministers in the presidency—I for one.
Before Christmas we believed that there was a way to avert the trade war, but it had to be agreed on both sides of the Atlantic. The fact that on Monday in the Foreign Affairs Council it was reported to us that there was a good chance of success—and that news came through early this morning—should be something for the hon. Gentleman to welcome. It prevents the imposition of a tax of 200 per cent. on exports of British gin and of taxes on all sorts of other goods from different countries in the Community. It is actually a great success which has been shouldered not only by the Commission but by the British presidency as well as the current Belgian presidency.
Mr. Robertson: Now that the hon. Lady has got that off her chest, perhaps she will get from her civil servants an answer to the question posed by the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor), because we require to know the cost. At what cost has this solution been found—the solution that we should so rejoice about?
Mr. Teddy Taylor: I should make it abundantly clear that it is not the cost that bothers me. I understand that it will be about £400 million. What really worries me is where the money is to come from when the Common Market has none.
Mr. Robertson: The hon. Gentleman is right, and I will come to this catastrophe of the finances in just a moment.
Whatever the Minister says and whoever she seeks to convince, the fact is that most of the acrimony could have been avoided and the real damage done to the Western alliance as a consequence of this looming trade war could still have been averted if the spirit of compromise and skill on display this week had been encouraged by Britain when it had the reins of power. Instead, the problem was avoided and it was left to the Belgians to pick up the pieces.
The second legacy of our presidency was the so-called triumphant deal on the common agricultural policy, engineered with maximum public relations trumpeting by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. In the cold light of day a month later, the deal that his little bespectacled friend brought back to the House in December looks pretty threadbare. It was claimed that the milk agreement would cut production and save £1·2 billion for the Community over three years, but earlier this month the distinguished Agra Europe published an article pointing out that the agreement will not solve the Community's milk problem nor give the budgetary savings associated with it. The milk and beef arrangements, the basis of the December package, represent only the start, no more, of the process to reform the common agricultural policy before it relentlessly destroys the European Community itself.
The third legacy of the presidency is the botched job on promoting the internal market, always seen by the Prime Minister as the export of Thatcherism, with all the clearly manifested British failures of it, to our European partners. The drive to deregulation crashed, as she implied, on the rocks of its first and only tangible objective—breaking the cartel of maintained air fares in Europe. Without the essential safeguards for the weaker economies and more vulnerable areas of the Community which are mentioned in the Single European Act, there will be no real progress in breaking down barriers in Europe. Jacques Delors, the president of the European Commission, has repeatedly said it, but our Prime Minister continues to ignore the fact, and the result is the wishy-washy list of advances faithfully and unconvincingly broadcast to us by the Minister—and by the Back-Bench sycophants with a script later on, no doubt.
The fourth legacy of the British presidency's failure is the rightly exposed bogus plan to tackle unemployment. The Minister has the nerve to proclaim this as one of the successes of the presidency, when we all know that it was simply a feeble gimmick dressed up to placate an increasingly worried electorate throughout Europe. It was the Financial Times, almost the establishment voice now in Europe, which in December said:
"On unemployment, the UK Presidency has perhaps been most cunning of all. Fearing pressure from other sides, including the European Commission, for some acceptable form of concerted action, the British produced their own plan which effectively requires very little action at all".
In the face of the largest single challenge to our continent today, that telling and humbling indictment by the Financial Times shows precisely what the Government's record is.

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If we require any more evidence, today's Financial Times gives it only too clearly. The figures published yesterday in Social Trends show how far this Government have gone down the road. The number of unemployed people in this country rose by 2 million between 1979 and 1986, but, as Mr. Joe Rogaly says in the Lombard column today,
"that statistic alone does not tell us the full extent of the human devastation. For in 1979 a mere quarter of the unemployed had been out of work for over a year; by last July this figure was 41 per cent. Nearly 18 per cent. had been unemployed for over three years."
Mr. Rogaly says that is
"575,000 people on a long trip down from the top left to the bottom right of the graph."
That is the evidence of the Government's record in this regard. How much value can be placed on their pious words during their presidency?
The other legacy of the British presidency, of course, comes in the special category of the financial chaos of the budger, the unmentioned, unspoken legacy that did not even figure in the Minister's opening speech. There is no budget for the European Community for 1987, and when the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office opened this debate, she did not even tell us that. We are so used to the soap opera of the European Community budget crisis that we may be forgiven for thinking that this is just another one of the same. But no way. This one is in a special category, a category all of its own, and it is much worse because British Ministers last year deliberately and cynically pushed the problem off their plate and on to that of the Belgians.
Mrs. Chalker: We solved the problem of the 1986 budget within a week.
Mr. Robertson: The hon. Lady is probably the only person in the House or in the country who believes that the Minister of State, Treasury solved anything at all. When one looks at the figures for 1987, one sees what a triumph the juggler at the Treasury managed to get away with—the size of the deficit inherited by the Belgians. Even if one takes away the difference with the European Parliament, it will still be 4 billion ecu—almost £3 billion—for 1987. That is the gap, the deficit, the overdraft, that has to be covered.
The overdraft of £3 billion—so lovingly, eloquently and dishonestly called the negative reserve—cannot be covered by a 1·6 or 2 per cent. increase in the VAT ceiling, even if the British rebate of £1 billion is confiscated. We all know from the Prime Minister's recent weasel words when she faced the House of Commons after the summit, that before the summer is out the hapless Minister of State, Treasury will come crawling to the House of Commons asking it to agree to yet another intergovernmental agreement on a non-reimbursable advance. One can bet a lot of money that that is going to happen, but the Prime Minister and the Minister of State, Treasury really should not be betting that it will get through this House.
The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Peter Brooke): As the hon. Member has been good enough to bring me into this debate, let me remark on the subject of the negative reserve. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) did not understand it in July and the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) did not understand it last December. Indeed, he has demonstrated today that he still does not understand it. That sounds to me like somebody who does not expect to be in government.
Mr. Robertson: That is the least convincing argument—that nobody understands it except the Treasury or the Minister of State, Treasury. How often in the past have we heard that? We all know that these figures have been published. If I have got it wrong, so has everybody else. We will wait to see whether we are all proved to be wrong.
There is an inbuilt suicide mechanism in the common agricultural policy which will relentlessly drive the Community into more wholly unproductive debt. Normally, when one acquires a debt in this world, one at least gets some pleasure out of it, but not in the common agricultural policy fruit machine. One simply loses money and gets nothing out of it at all. Few, if any, proposals are being put forward by this Government to solve this crisis.
The casualties of this crisis will not be the agricultural empires, because they are drowning in money. The social and regional funds—about which the Minister dared to speak a word of welcome—the research budget, the energy and industry budget and the aid budget will be caught in the vice of obligatory spending on agricultural surpluses that nobody wants. The Minister is not alone in being enthusiastic about the regional fund. On 10 December her hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry, referring to the European regional development fund, said:
"I intend to ensure that next year's discussion in the Community takes full account of the claims of those regions which have a disproportionate share of the declining industry."
It is peculiar that the Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry does not share that view with the Minister of State, Treasury. They should get together and agree with the common-liners, because the guy In the Department of Trade and Industry who is trying to get the maximum for this country is battling not only with the European Community but with the Treasury, which is trying to squeeze the regional fund down to negative figures, if it can get away with it.
In this country we need it and we need it well. Of the European Community's 40 most depressed areas 28 are i n the United Kingdom. If ever we needed evidence—if we did not see and represent the evidence of this country's decline in this region—the Government's own evidence to the European regional development fund earlier this year provides eloquent testimony to prove the case for us.
What did the Government say about Merseyside? The Minister comes from that part of the world, representing Wallasey. The Government's own analysis is:
"Prospects for reducing unemployment are frighteningly bleak."
How did the Minister explain that to her constituents? I wonder how they can explain that away.
What about Greater Manchester? The Government say:
"The scale of the problem is far in excess of the level of the resources which are available."
What about Scotland, which I and my hon. Friends represent? Of Strathclyde, the most populous and economically important region of Scotland, the Government say:
"there appears to be little possibility of sufficient expansion in the economy to reduce unemployment significantly in the next few years."
The analysis goes on. About the west midlands it says that there is
"little prospect of an improvement in the region's basic unemployment problem in the period between now and the end of the decade."

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As regards Wales, the report states:
"The overall economic activity in Wales is lower than any other region of Great Britain and is expected to remain so during the period that this programme covers."
On Northern Ireland, it says:
"In the absence of an increase in labour demand there is every likelihood that unemployment will increase."
About south Yorkshire it says that until the upturn comes
"the area is likely to remain fairly depressed."
The comment on the north-east of England is:
"the present, unacceptable high levels of unemployment will not improve until other fundamental problems, such as water supply, land drainage, waste disposal, telecommunications, industrial land . . . are resolved."
That is an indictment of the Government in their own words and by their own evidence. How can that be explained?
My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) unearthed this treasure trove of Government culpability. If he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, to wind up this debate, I am sure he will point out, as will others of my hon. Friends, how the Government have wrecked this country. No wonder, when the objective of regional policy has been laid down.
The Government's objective is to reduce regional disparities in employment opportunities on a stable longterm basis. What a sick joke that is. No wonder the Financial Times last Monday said:
"In the wider context, Government regional policy has clearly failed."
There is all the evidence of damage in the Government's own words—a record of where this country has gone wrong. Yet at the same time the Government inexorably squeeze the resources that are available from the European regional development fund to assist areas in this country. This is today's Tory Britain. In the Government's own words, their own report from their own point of view—the least we can call it is a confession of failure. They have no remedy or answer and they seem to have no genuine care—although they display it so often that even their own supporters come to believe it—about the damage that is being done.
Oblivious to the misery, hopelessness and heartache over which they are presiding, which even their own experts have identified, this Government are devoid of caring. The British presidency last year could have been a chance for vision, given the tasks and challenges both here and in our partner countries. Instead we got shortsightedness. It would have been an opportunity for joint action on jobs and high-tech projects that Europe needs to compete with the United States and the far east. Instead, we got more short-term self-seeking. It could have been a time for tackling the roots of the running problems. Instead, they were swept under the carpet again and again. There is disarray at home and complacency abroad. This Government are played out. The sooner they go, the better for all of us.
5.18 pm
Sir Anthony Meyer: What would the Labour party have said if the Government had not put forward the strongest possible case for getting a large share of the European regional development fund? I think it was Harold Nicholson who once said that democratic statesmen at an international conference were rather in the position of a chap trying to play cards with somebody
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behind him commenting on the cards in his hands for everybody to hear. The attitude of the Labour party in this matter is, as one might expect, very unhelpful.
I look forward to the day when the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) is able to come out and openly admit that he is a crypto-European and be obliged no longer to disguise his real views with a welter of rather irrelevant rhetoric. It will be no doubt some consolation to him that the impending third consecutive defeat of the Labour party at a general election will for ever remove from serious debate the issue of continued British membership of the European Community, as in fact it has already been removed from serious consideration.
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is silly that theoretically we are debating events in the European Community from January to July of last year. As my hon. Friend made clear in her eloquent speech, what we are really talking about is the British presidency. The mere fact that the debate is apparently irrelevant may account for the poor attendance. We have not on this occasion—for the first time that I can recall—the pleasure of the company of the Liberal party's European policy spokesman—in other words, the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber and pretty well every other point on the road to the isles. We very much miss him from our debates and look forward with interest to what the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) will say.
Mr. A. J. Beith: I hope that the hon. Gentleman has taken notice of certain appointments that were made only a week or so ago. I might point out that my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) has 'flu, or he would be here to make sure that he approves of what I say.
Sir Anthony Meyer: I know the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber well enough to realise that nothing else would have kept him from the debate. As usual, we observe the crowded Benches of the Social Democrats, the other party of Europe as they claim to be.
I give a wholehearted welcome to the agreement that was concluded only a few hours ago with the United States. It has averted a threatened trade war which would have been intensely damaging in itself and would have gives a fresh momentum to the growth of protectionism across the Atlantic and probably worldwide. The agreement shows the immense benefits that flow from a firm and united stand by the European Community.
At first sight, and before I heard my hon. Friend's speech, the achievements of the British presidency looked a trifle meagre, apart from the startling achievement, against all expectations, of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in securing agreement on measures that will check the accumulation of agricultural surpluses. All the expectations, right up to the moment of agreement, were that no such agreement was possible.
The presidency now looks bleak only to those who, like myself, are never satisfied that progress in this sphere is fast enough, or to those who never read beyond the headlines in the popular newspapers. What is happening is that the process of European Community integration is going ahead slowly—oh, how slowly—but the semi-inertia, as it seems to be to those who look at it superficially, is in itself steadily promoting the setting of

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the European mixture. In this perspective the steady, efficient, conscientious work of British Ministers during the presidency has contributed its share of pectin to the mixture.
Criticism in other EC countries of Britain as a member of the European Community is far from dying down, but what is dying down is doubt about Britain's commitment to the Community. It was significant that the President of the French Republic, Mr. Mitterrand, chose to come to London, to Chatham house, especially to make a speech about his views on the future of Europe. Those of us who heard it judged that speech to be aimed primarily at a French audience rather than a British audience. Clearly it was part of his internal political activity, but none the less it was significant that he should have chosen to make that speech in London. Those of us who listened to it had no doubt that the whole operation had been most carefully thought out in advance. If we were now to do ourselves a good turn by joining the exchange rate mechanism of the European monetary system, we would finally and for ever lay to rest any lingering doubts about our permanent commitment to Europe.
The process can be seen at work in the history of attitudes towards the Single European Act. When it was first proposed, the Government regarded it as totally misconceived and sought to sidetrack it. Then they went along with underwhelming enthusiasm with the negotiations that led to the Act. Now, in paragraph 1.4 of the White Paper, we have this statement:
"It is the Government's view that the Single European Act will enhance the Community's ability to respond to the challenges of the 1980s and 1990s, and will strengthen the ability of the twelve member states, acting together, to make their voice heard in international affairs. It advances the United Kingdom's interests by making it easier to break down the remaining harriers to trade and the provision of services (a long-standing United Kingdom objective); by helping the Community to compete in the new technologies; and by making co-operation in foreign policy more effective. As the Prime Minister told the House of Commons on 5 December 1985, it will enable the United Kingdom 'to realise more fully the benefits of our membership of the European Community'."
That is music in my ears. It gives me great encouragement to see those words in black and white in a Government White Paper.
My hon. Friend told me before the debate that the Single European Act played no part in the remarkably successful conclusion of the negotiations on the common agricultural policy, but these things cast a shadow ahead of them. We have seen more than once, for example, that the threat of privatisation has been as effective as privatisation itself in inducing more realistic attitudes. Whatever the direct impact of the Single European Act on the agricultural negotiations, they must necessarily have been influenced by the prospect that the use of the national veto would be seen as less and less respectful and that the use of majority voting in its turn would become more and more the ordinary course of events.
Mr. Eric Deakins: The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the well-known quotation of Dr. Johnson:
"when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."
But that is not an argument for hanging.
Sir Anthony Meyer: That is right; it is an argument for second thoughts. I think I am justified in saying that we
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are moving steadily away from the total paralysis which the opponents of the Community, on both sides of the House, had hoped to see.
An element in the Single European Act is the enhanced role given to the European Parliament. I was much impressed by the remarkable record of attendance of United Kingdom Ministers at plenary and Committee meetings of the Parliament. I should like to congratulate in particular my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Treasury, for the part that he played in proceedings of the Committees of the Parliament where he gained an enviable reputation for his assiduity, courtesy, knowledge and diplomatic skills.
Ministers have proved that they take the Parliament seriously. I wish that the same could be said of this House. We continue jealously to refuse access to this place to Members of the European Parliament, eyeing them suspiciously, like locals eyeing visitors to the saloon bar. Of course, feeling unwanted, they no longer wish to come here. That is our loss, not theirs. It is we who are cutting ourselves off from wider perspectives, new ideas and the chance to break away from the parish pump mentality which so often prevails in the House.
The election of Sir Henry Plumb as President of the European Parliament provides an opportunity to break bad habits and to enlist popular support for better links between the European Parliament and this one. Despite his antipodean connections, it would be difficult to envisage a more typically British personality than Sir Henry. The fact that the 12-nation Parliament has elected him as President shows that, for them, to be British and to be European are two sides of a single coin, as Sir Henry Plumb so clearly demonstrated by saying that he was born British and would die a European. If Sir Henry, as President of the European Parliament, wished to call on Mr. Speaker, he, in theory at any rate, would be obliged to undergo the humbling process of the security search.
Mr. Deakins: Why not?
Sir Anthony Meyer: Any stranger visiting this Palace is rightly expected to undergo a security search. I doubt whether Sir Henry Plumb would receive such treatment in any of the other 11-member Parliaments of the European Community. I have no doubt that an expedient method can be found to enable Sir Henry to visit this place in the style to which the President of the European Parliament is entitled.
Ours is a two-Chamber legislature. For the life of me I cannot understand why the Prime Minister, who has never hesitated to put some fairly run-of-the-mill past Members of the House into the other place, will not do the same for the leader of the British delegation to the European Parliament, and indeed for its President.
Mr. Deakins: How can he do two jobs?
Sir Anthony Meyer: Four Members of the European Parliament are already Members of the other place. It would make sense that the President of the Parliament—obviously, he could not be in the other place very often—had the occasional right to speak there, and most certainly this applies to the leader of the British delegation.
If there were complaints—no doubt there would be complaints from the Labour party—that to do that would give an unfair advantage to the Conservative party,

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I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would be prepared to balance this matter by conferring peerages upon Mr. Alf Lomas and Mr. Les Huckfield, and grant them admission to the other place. Their contributions, I am sure, would be of enormous benefit to the Labour party and, indeed, to the other place.
In his wisdom, Mr. Speaker decided not to select the amendment that I put down. I quite understand the reasons why he did so, but in a way I am rather sorry about it. In the past, amendments to take note motions have often been put forward by some of my hon. Friends. On occasions, we have voted on them. I should have welcomed the opportunity to demonstrate that a substantial number of Conservative Members while supporting the Government's stance on Europe, would be glad to see a little more forward motion and a little swifter progress than we have seen to date. By and large, my hon. Friend has presented us with an encouraging report and we look forward to further progress in the same direction.
5.33 pm
Mr. A. J. Beith: I share the sense of disappointment expressed by the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) that hon. Members will not have the opportunity to go to the Division Lobby in support of his amendment, since it contains a great many things with which I agree. It would be interesting to see who is prepared to join him and who is left to vote against us. The amendment contains, among other things, that note of welcome to Sir Henry Plumb that was missing from the Minister's remarks.
Mrs. Chalker: I said it last week.
Mr. Beith: Things like that should often be said. On occasions as appropriate as the first debate after Sir Henry has assumed the presidency, it is right to wish him well and to set out some objectives for what we consider should happen during his presidency.
I have tried to commence my remarks by looking back as far as the White Paper with which we are dealing looks back. As some hon. Members have said, it is an odd feature of these debates that we pin them to a period over a year ago. In looking back, we must recall the accession of Spain and Portugal. It is important to remember that their accession to the Community represented a significant political event for those countries. Quite explicitly, for the Government and the peoples of both countries, membership of the Community, to which they attach great importance, was part of their commitment to democracy, which they each had been denied for so long. That is a point that we can usefully recall, and perhaps usefully draw to the attention of the United States in the arguments that seem to lead to threats of a trade war between the United States and Europe arising out of the application of levies by Spain and Portugal—Spain in particular—on United States agricultural exports.
It behoves the American Congress in particular to remember the significance for Spain and Portugal of their membership of the Community and to set those vital political considerations about the future of democracy and the Atlantic alliance alongside the economic and trade considerations which loom large in any discussion in Congress. The two aspects must be looked at alongside
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each other. Our American allies might well remember the democratic and strategic importance of the accession of those countries to the Community.
We can look back also to the Single European Act, which we certainly welcomed as a step forward. I endorsed the note of welcome that now features in Government statements on the subject.
Mr. George Robertson: I do not wish in any way to be irreverent, but if the Liberal party, on whose behalf the hon. Gentleman speaks, is so much in favour of the Single European Act, why is it that only the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) came to any of the debates to put that measure through the British Parliament?
Mr. Beith: That is not true. I attended some of the debates myself. The hon. Gentleman should look around his own Benches to realise that there is a higher proportion of Alliance members in the Chamber, as on most occasions, than there is or was of the parliamentary Labour party. I can see five Members of the parliamentary Labour party, plus two Members on the Labour Front Bench. That makes seven. If one puts that figure into a couple of hundred and determines the proportion involved, one will see the responsibilities which rest upon a couple of dozen Alliance MPs in the proper perspective.
Dr. Godman: What about the Conservatives?
Mr. Beith: The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) addressed me from the Labour Front Bench. He must have a reply in terms that relate to his own position.
The British presidency has been disappointing because of its lack of vision. That view is reflected by those hon. Members who desire to see the European Community develop and become a more effective and democratic institution. The British presidency has involved a major effort by individual British Ministers—I pay tribute to the effort that they have put into it—and a major effort by the British diplomatic service. Considerable additional work has been done. I noticed it when I visited the United Nations in the latter part of last year. An enormous effort went into trying to secure a European position on issues arising in the United Nations by British Foreign Office representatives there. They deserve some credit for the amount of effort that went into that period of the presidency. It is a precedent that we might adopt in other areas. A lot more could be done in Commonwealth cooperation if that kind of effort were deployed. It certainly brought out some of the best characteristics of our diplomatic service.
The British presidency was marked yet again by a failure to join the European monetary system. The Prime Minister says that she is in favour of joining the European monetary system when the time is right. I interpret that, in the Prime Minister's language, to mean when she is no longer around. The only definition of "when the time is right", according to the Prime Minister, is 'over her dead body'. I see no sign in any of her comments so far that she has any serious intention of committing Britain to the European monetary system. That makes her stance absurd. Obviously, it is one of those compromise phrases which somebody in the Cabinet Office has dreamt up to patch up the difference between those who believe that we should join now and those who believe that we should

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never join at all. We set our position quite firmly. By now, Britain should have seized the opportunity to join the European monetary system and gained considerable advantages in doing so.
Mr. Roger King: I am in some confusion about this matter. As the hon. Gentleman may possibly be aware, some concern was expressed today about the difficulty of trying to ascertain whether it is a Liberal or Social Democratic viewpoint. As the hon. Gentleman is probably aware, last night, when the time came to vote, they disappeared into the sunset in various Lobbies. When the hon. Gentleman says "We", does he express a Liberal, SDP or alliance point of view? It is essential that we know.
Mr. Beith: As an ex-Whip, I can supply the hon. Gentleman with a list many volumes long of the occasions on which Conservative Members have done what two of my hon. Friends did, which was to stray mistakenly into the wrong Division Lobby. The list would include serving Ministers. Clearly, the hon. Gentleman has not been attending debates on this subject, or he would have heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) describe the Prime Minister's commitment to the European monetary system as rather like somebody trying to live in a lift, constantly saying that she has not yet reached the right floor at which to alight. There is no doubt about the shared commitment of the alliance partners to British membership of the European monetary system and British commitment to the development of the Community.
Another disappointment of the British presidency has been the failure to come to terms with the problems of the common agricultural policy. It is a partial failure, because one has to acknowledge the efforts made by the Government in two areas. However, they have left agriculture desperately wondering which way to turn. The industry was told to "produce, produce, produce" and then quotas were slapped on it overnight. The fear, based on what happened in the dairy sector, has now spread abroad among the other agricultural sectors. The Government owe it to agriculture to set out what they are trying to achieve and how they are going to do it.
I recognise that the process, which is one of negotiation, necessarily means that the Government cannot say at this stage what the end result will be. However, they must give a much clearer lead to the agricultural community, which simply does not know what to do. The figures of declining agricultural investment are there to be seen. That decline is inexorable. The industry can hardly be encouraged by what the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said at the Oxford farming conference a few weeks ago. He was referring to the CAP budget when he said:
"It would be wrong to encourage the belief that as savings . . . are made, so the current subsidies can be automatically diverted to alternative support systems."
That sent a tremor, understandably, through all those who heard it and through those in the industry who listen to such things.
There is clearly no way of resolving the problems that the industry will face unless the withdrawal of support necessary to bring supply and demand into some sort of balance is followed by investment into other uses of agricultural land, other employment in the countryside and other activities that can be related to farming so as to replace that which will be lost. Merely setting aside land
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to lie fallow, as the Government propose, could mean that more is produced on smaller amounts of land. The British farming industry has shown its willingness, capacity and ability to grow ever-increasing amounts by sheer efficiency and productivity.
Setting aside land to lie fallow will not solve the problem of balancing supply and demand in the long run. That is why. anybody who looks at the problem realistically, including the National Farmers Union, goes to some trouble to look at alternative ways in which it would be possible to ensure that the support given by the CAP does not go beyond the requirements and needs of the Community. We cannot afford to go on supporting and financing surpluses which we then have to store at considerable expense. The industry knows that and it is looking for a lead from the Government and a sign that the Government are determined to find a way out of the problem that will provide a future for the communities that depend upon agriculture.
As long as that is not done, the other crucial current objective for the Community—sorting out budgetary discipline and budgetary coherence—cannot be attained. No sort of budgetary discipline can survive the open-ended nature of the financial commitments of the CAP. As long as budgetary discipline cannot be achieved, it will be increasingly difficult to win the necessary support for enlarged activity in other areas of policy in Europe, such as environmental policy, social policy, economic policy, and regional policy.
Dr. Godman: When the hon. Gentleman talks about the alternative use of land, I hope he does not mean the frivolous utilisation of such land such as the creation of more golf courses. Surely it is the small farmer who requires the most vigorous of defence measures.
Mr. Beith: If anyone seriously imagines that the entire agricultural estate of this country can be covered with golf courses, he over-estimates the golfing capacity even of a nation in which there is a great deal of affection for the sport. There are already 15 golf courses in and around my constituency and there is not much scope for creating more.
The changes that we are talking about, whether achieved by alliance proposals or by the Government's set-aside policy, will involve looking for some alternative uses of land. One would expect to see an increase in the recreational use of agricultural land on the edge of towns. The best recreational use of agricultural land for many people, however, is to see it in agricultural use when they walk through the countryside and enjoy it as one of the most attractive features of life in Britain. For agriculture to cease to be the main activity of the countryside would not only be an economic disaster; it would lead to a considerable loss in its recreational value for many people who enjoy travelling in areas of the countryside, in which farmers are the caretakers who keep the land looking as people have grown accustomed to seeing it.
I want to deal with regional policy. The Government, by their decisions on development area status, control the availability of European regional funds, even under the existing regional fund provision of the European Community. They have done that so rigidly that they have brought about a situation in which areas which staff in Brussels know deserve support cannot obtain it. They have drawn a map of assisted areas which is increasingly out of

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touch, even in the two or three years since it was last revised, with the real unemployment problems of the country. For example, the Alnwick and Amble travel-to-work area in my constituency, where male unemployment is 22 per cent., even before the impact is felt of the recent closure of Whittle colliery, is denied assistance from the European regional fund because of the map that the British Government have drawn. I ask the Government to look at whether they can expand, within the rural development areas, the physical area to which European regional development assistance is available because the population involved in those areas is small.
I usually speak on foreign affairs, and one of the areas in which I would expect to see some benefit from the British presidency is foreign policy. The British presidency coincided with an issue of foreign policy which is of major concern to Britain as well as to many other member countries—that of South Africa. The Foreign Secretary found himself the emissary of the European Community after the Hague summit and the agreement to consider a range of sanctions. He was sent on a mission that was bound to fail. We wished him well, although we were in no doubt that it would prove to be abortive, because any useful contact that he could make, or persuasion that he could apply to those in South Africa was better than nothing. I am sure that he used his natural charm and abilities to the full as he went on that ill-fated tour, but there was no indication at the start of the tour, during or after it, that it would lead to any change in the circumstances in South Africa, which have got infinitely worse since then.
The Foreign Secretary went to South Africa against the background of the Prime Minister having already dismissed the sanctions package that had been put together by Commonwealth leaders. That package was put together in the face of great difficulties posed by the British Government, and even when it was agreed it was devalued by our Prime Minister. Therefore, it was much more difficult for the Foreign Secretary, speaking on behalf of the European Community, to give South Africa the impression that he was speaking with the sort of authority which, if it was not respected, would lead to the imposition of measures seriously challenging the regime's ability to carry on in its present way.
Nobody, I hope, has any illusion about the possibility that large-scale sanctions could bring the South African Government to their knees or overturn the system of apartheid. However, sanctions are an essential part of demonstrating our willingness to make sacrifices because of the extent of our opposition to apartheid, and they are a vital part of the process by which change will eventually come about. That was made clear by the Eminent Persons Group and the Foreign Secretary was aware of it. His ability to carry that forward into concerted policy was undermined by what had already happened at the Commonwealth Ministers' meetings. At the end of the day, we know that the European package of sanctions lacked that essential element—the ban on coal imports that was part of the original proposals.
It is perhaps on the issue of terrorism that the need for European co-operation is the most urgent. One is bound to express disappointment at the fact that member countries are still going off in different directions, often impelled by the most urgent humanitarian considerations.
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One thinks, for example, of the position of the French and the Germans because of the holding of hostages from both these countries. When the EEC Foreign Ministers agreed to act against people engaged in international terrorism they combined that agreement with a declaration that increased military tension was dangerous and ought to be avoided. The Foreign Secretary was a party to that agreement and was present at the meeting, but within three days of the meeting the Government gave consent to the United States to use British airbases for the strike against Libya. What kind of concerted European policy was that, within three days to do precisely what the Ministers had agreed would increase international tension?
Hon. Members have mentioned the important contribution that the Community can make to the middle east. An international conference is highly desirable and the Foreign Secretary said that when he met Mr. Peres in London. It is clearly important for the EEC to play a positive role in such discussions. I hope EEC Ministers also recognise that the Soviet Union must be brought into those discussions so that it can bring some influence to bear on some of the other actors involved in this increasingly desperate situation.
The White Paper mentions EEC support for the Contadora Group, the efforts of which have recently been revived, so far without much promise or success. There is to be a meeting of EEC Foreign Ministers and central American Foreign Ministers in Guatemala on 10 February. It is important to continue to keep a European dimension on this issue and for Europe to make it quite clear to the United States that its continued support for the Contras in Nicaragua does not enjoy the backing of an European country, and ought not to enjoy the backing of the Community, just as it does not enjoy the backing of large parts of Congress or of the American people. It ought to be part of a mature relationship with our allies, the United States, that we are prepared to tell them when we think the President is mistaken.
In the matter of foreign affairs, it would be wrong not to mention the Philippines. The EEC has made declarations of support for democratic government there. There is considerable European industrial involvement in the Philippines by companies such as Unilever, Shell, Hoechst, Bayer, and Telefunken. Many people there who seek to sustain democracy want to see a broader international base of support than is provided by the Philippines' present close relationship with the United States of America. Europe must be seen there as one of the supporters of the frail democracy which, thankfully, has survived the assaults of the last few days.
I said earlier that I welcomed the amendment tabled by a number of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West. The amendment contains comments about Sir Henry Plumb, who made it quite clear when he gained the support on the last round of the ballot of the European Liberal and Democratic Group in the European Parliament, that he believes that the United Kingdom should become a full member of the EMS, that the power of the Parliament democratically to control the Community's policies should be increased, that he will press for greater use of majority voting in the Council of Ministers, and that he supports proportional representation in European elections in all member states. I wish him every success in the pursuit of those aims. I know that they are shared by a distinguished but small minority of

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Conservative Members, some of whom have their names to the amendment. I wish Sir Henry success during his period of office.
The European Parliament is soon to debate a uniform electoral system, and it is about time that the Government stopped using their power to defraud the British public and, indeed, all the people in the Community out of fair representation. No other country in the Community attempts to distort representation in this way. Even this Government do not attempt to do it in one part of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, but continue to deny England, Scotland and Wales fair representation in the European Parliament. When speaking on behalf of the Conservative party in opposition, the present Home Secretary said that only the first European election should take place on the system that we now use, and that from then on a common system would have to be used. Now he is the Home Secretary and is responsible for electoral law and he ought to ensure that the system used at the next European election is fair.
The failings and weaknesses in the institutions of the Community cannot be reformed and put right without a real commitment to the success of the Community. We will not get that commitment from the Labour party, which rather mutedly in this House, but much more clearly at Strasbourg, displays that deep hostility to the Community that is part of the siege mentality of post-war Socialism. That hostility is heard again and again from Labour party representatives at Strasbourg and if they were brought back more fully into the precincts of Westminster, as one hon. Member asked earlier, we would hear that anti-European voice even more stridently.
The Government give us a mixed picture. Clearly, there is a willingness to remain in the European Community, but there is a reluctance to accept the implications of that, and that goes along with the Prime Minister's well-known habit of lecturing all foreigners as if they were of some inferior social status to her own. It amounts to a failure to recognise that we cannot make democracy work in Europe unless we are prepared to make some sacrifice in sovereignty. Unless there is willingness to surrender some sovereignty, there can he no strengthening of the Parliament and no real budgetary accountability. We must believe in Europe if we are to make European institutions effective.
5.56 pm
Mr. Teddy Taylor: We are grateful to the Minister for turning up despite a bad cold and showing once again her essential effervescence and optimism. I suggest that perhaps the Government are making an error in being quite so optimistic and looking for a bright side that does not exist. All hon. Members will welcome enormously the agreement between Europe and the United States of America, but perhaps it might be unrealistic for us to suggest that this was achieved by a combination of Europe being firm and of Sir Henry Plumb threatening the equivalent of war.
As I understand it, the United States, justifiably, said that the action taken following Spain's accession was such that it was entitled to cash compensation under the GATT rules. The United States felt strongly about that and said that it was entitled to compensation either by a concession in kind or by cash. I understand that negotiations took place, but that no progress was made, and that the Americans threatened to do to gin the equivalent of what
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the Japanese do to Scotch whisky—for reasons other than temperance. Of course, we said that if they carried on like that we would do something nasty. Understandably and correctly, we have accepted our responsibilities under GATT. I welcome this, but I hope that the Minister will give a further explanation of the details of the agreement.
Looking back over the six months of the European presidency one sees that there are no grounds for excitement, or for the optimism which my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) exhibits. We talk, as did the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), about progress in foreign affairs. It is splendid that the member states of the Common Market can meet and express collective views on what they think might happen in south America, Nicaragua, South Africa or the middle east, but when it comes to the hard crunch issues, where is the huge benefit of this speaking with one voice and Britain not being alone?
The only recent example that I can think of was in the United Nations when Britain was condemned in a vicious and spiteful motion attacking this country and calling upon us to do things about the Falkland Islands which we thought were against our national interests and an insult to those who lost their lives in the war. Where was that popular united front when it came to the vote? We got support from countries such as Oman, Belize and Sri Lanka but not a single vote of support from any member state of the European Community. Indeed, some of them voted against us.
I suggest to the Minister that we should bear this in mind and not claim that there has been a dramatic and fundamental change in the attitude of different member states about speaking with one voice and acting in one way.
We have not heard a word about trade. I wish that the Minister had been here yesterday to hear the Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry understandably express his serious concern about the appalling gap in the balance of manufactured trade. That is more than 100 per cent. a Common Market problem. There is now a gap in our trade in manufactured goods of more than £10 billion with the Common Market and a substantial surplus with the rest of the world. Before membership, we always had a profit. This is a matter of serious concern and the problem appears to be getting worse.
In such circumstances, I suggest that there are insufficient grounds for optimism. I want to concentrate on the budget and the EEC. However, before I discuss those points, I want to consider sovereignty. The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry has said that he is very worried about our trade balance, the state of which is a serious threat to jobs and employment in Britain. He explained that the causes of the present state of the balance of trade are not Government policy, either Labour or Conservative. The causes are an aggregation of consumer choice. As other Ministers have suggested, lie said that we should consider what we are buying and where the product is made in our purchasing decisions.
However, we shall not be able to do that from next year, not because the Government want to change the rules but because the Commission—a wholly non-elected body—sent a letter to the Government saying that our law on origin marking, whereby goods must display the country of manufacture, is illegal in European terms. If I wanted to buy a clock at the moment, it might have a label saying "Made in Taiwan", "Made in Japan", "Made in

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Germany", "Made in Italy" or "Made in Britain". The country of origin must be displayed. At the moment, as the Minister is aware, the Consumer Protection Bill is in another place. That will remove the legal responsibility for labelling the country of origin. That means that other countries will not have to display the country of origin. Unless a British manufacturer decides to put "Made in Britain" on his goods, consumers will not have the slightest idea where goods originate.
My point is not simply that I regard that as a bad thing—although I do, because the Government rightly said in the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 that consumers were entitled to know the country of origin as that adds to consumer knowledge. I am upset at the fact that the Government did not want to make the change. The Government have put it on the record in Hansard that they regretted the move, but were forced to make the change because of the letter from the European Commission and because Government lawyers advised that they would not win a case in the European Court. That is only one example of the consequences of the treaty and the Single European Act which have caused a substantial erosion of our sovereignty. I do not think that the Government have much to be proud of.
Mr. William Cash: Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that there are procedures, if what he says is correct, for ensuring that if there are doubts about matters of European law, these can be resolved by what is effectively an action for a declaration in the European Court?
Mr. Taylor: I accept that point and I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who probably knows more about European law than anyone else in the Chamber. However, as my hon. Friend knows, the Government consulted their lawyers and barristers and were told that they did not have a hope of winning the case. There was no point in them taking the matter to the court. The Government have had to bring in a law against their judgment, and against the wishes and the interests of the British nation, which is wholly contrary to the Consumer Protection Bill for which my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) and I voted.
Mr. Dykes: Is my hon. Friend not misleading the House—and I ask this because I might be incorrect—because he is referring to a Commission letter which reflects a decision of the European Court? I believe that it was a court decision and not a Commission decision.
Mr. Taylor: That is not the information that I received in a written answer. Perhaps we can discuss this later. I can assure my hon. Friend that I received that information from a Minister. I was told that a letter was sent. I am glad to see my hon. Friend the Minister of State nodding in agreement, showing that she believes that my hon. Friend is wrong. A letter was sent according to the written answer.
The essential point is that the Government do not want to repeal the Trade Descriptions Act 1968. The Government believe that it would be damaging to abandon the Trade Descriptions Act. However, they must do that because of an instruction from the Commission or the decision from the European Court. It certainly has nothing to do with this country. This is another example of a loss of sovereignty and there are much such examples.
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Within the next six months, we shall receive the decision of the European Court as to whether we should levy VAT on new house building in Britain. Here again, the decision is not taken by the 650 Members of Parliament in this House. Even if we all thought that it would be catastrophic for the building industry to impose VAT on new house building, even if we thought that that would be a scandalous undermining of the living standards of young couples trying to buy their own houses, there is nothing that we can do about it if the European Court takes the decision. The same applies to VAT on gas, electricity, protective clothing and protective footwear. As the White Paper sadly does not mention, this loss of sovereignty has been happening and the people of Britain are just beginning to wake up to the facts after the passing of the Single European Act.
For many of us the crucial factor, and the most dangerous issue at the moment in the European Community, is the apparent abandoning of the drive to control the European Community budget. When my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) and I first took an interest in European affairs, we were comforted—perhaps he was not comforted to the same extent as I—by the fact that there was a legal limit on Common Market spending. There was an amount beyond which the Community could not spend or budget for and that was clearly and precisely laid down. This was different from the position with countries which could spend as much as they wanted. That was a safeguard and we were told that there was a limit on what could be spent. However, we know that the legal budget is dead. We all know that this year the Common Market will spend at least £3 billion more than it is legally entitled to spend. I am worried that during the six months that we are discussing, for a number of reasons that I will elucidate, we have virtually abandoned the battle for budgetary restraint.
At the moment, the Belgians have the presidency. As a result of the chronic crisis in the Community budget, we understood that there was to be an emergency meeting of the Council in March. However, we now learn that there will be informal discussions, with the possibility of a meeting in June. Britain has traditionally been the one country—because we still have a veto—to stand for firm budgetary control. Sadly, however, the way that events have progressed makes me doubt whether Britain still has a financial interest in budgetary control.
I want to illustrate that point by considering the issue about which the Minister of State has kindly written to me and referred to today. When we agreed at Fontainebleau to an increase in the VAT contribution to 1·4 per cent., most of us thought that we did not need to worry about a future rebate. We thought that that would not be a weapon to be used against Britain because that could be deducted at source. In other words, that was no longer an issue. However, like all Common Market agreements, we find that it was not quite so simple as it seemed at the time. We make a partial direct deduction of our rebate and then have to get the other part direct from Brussels, not as a direct deduction but paid as a sum. Sadly, in respect of the year 1986, there has been only a partial payment of our rebate of 1,633 mecu to date. In a letter to me on 26 January, the Minister of State said that that is:
"already acknowledged to be a substantial underestimate of our true entitlement."

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In other words, the sum that we have deducted is a substantial underestimate. A lot more money should be paid in 1987 in respect of our 1986 abatement.
The problem is that the Common Market has no money. Not only has it no money, it will spend a lot more than is legally available to it. It will not be possible for us to receive the partial rebate in 1987 unless the EEC spends a lot more money. The Minister has said today that we may receive the money in the 1988 budget, although the 1987 budget has not yet been agreed.
Sadly, our previous insistence on and interest in budgetary restraint is not in our national interest. Once again, the Community can hold us to ransom and state that we will not get the corrected rebate unless the Community receives more cash. There is another reason why that is not in our national interest, especially as we are approaching the election. If we were to insist that the Common Market adhered to its legal budget, it would not be able to pay for the costs of intervention and the various sums paid to agriculture. That would not be particularly popular at the moment. I believe that budgetary discipline is important with regard to public spending. Every Conservative believes that passionately and we believe at home that budgetary control is important. It is more important because the budgetary limit has always been Britain's lever to achieve reform.
We have always said that, if the Community thinks that it will go bust, it had better do something about the common agricultural policy. I have gained the unfortunate impression, however, that we no longer have a national interest in budgetary restraint and that nobody in the Community or the Council is adopting anything other than an attitude of dull resignation, believing that there is nothing that can stop legal budget limits being greatly exceeded.
Mr. Dorrell: Does my hon. Friend understand that there is an inconsistency in his case? A few moments ago he criticised the Single European Act and several of the decisions that have been handed down by the European Court of Justice on the grounds that they were supranational decisions and that an immediate national priority was being submerged in a common European interest. He is now describing the budgetary chaos, which we all recognise exists. Is he aware that it is precisely because of the weakness of the supranational agency, which he criticises, that it is impossible to put some order into the Community's budget?
Mr. Taylor: I am saying the very opposite. I believe that not one member state is prepared to argue that the budgetary limits that have been agreed for 1987 should be kept. Each one will stand idly by while we exceed it by at least £3 billion.
Mr. Brooke: Contrary to what my hon. Friend said a moment ago, our entitlement to abatement remains absolute, although I agree that there are some considerations about when it arrives. Assuming that the abatement is incorporated in the main budget for 1988, as I said earlier this afternoon, it will be deducted at source just as it is now. I have now participated in five Budget Councils in connection with the 1987 European budget and there has consistently been a qualified majority in favour of maintaining budget discipline.
Mr. Taylor: I hope that my hon. Friend is not trying to mislead himself. Nobody is suggesting that the
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Common Market is doing anything other than passing a legal budget. We all know, however, that irrespective of the fact that it will have a legal budget which is restricted by the 1·4 per cent. VAT ceiling, it will spend at least £3 billion more. Does my hon. Friend believe that the Common Market will spend a legal budget in 1987? He must know that it will not. It will greatly exceed it. There is not much point in his sitting around saying that the budget for this year will be 20, 30 or 40 mecu, as he knows that it will be greatly exceeded.
As for the corrective rebate, the Minister has said that the 1,633 mecu included in successive drafts of the 1987 budget is already acknowledged to be a substantial underestimate. I hope that he accepts that, under Fontainebleau, we are entitled to receive that rebate in 1987—but we will not get it. He is now saying that we might get it, or that he expects us to get it in 1988.
Mr. Brooke: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. At the moment, we do not have a European Community budget for 1987. We are working on provisional twelfths, as the Commission is not entitled to spend on behalf of the Community more than is allowed under the provisional twelfths regime. The same will apply after we have a Community budget for 1987. The Commission cannot spend money that it has not been authorised to spend.
Mr. Deakins: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the Minister of State has given us two lengthy but much-needed interventions, would it not help the House if he replied to the debate on behalf of the Government?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me.
Mr. Taylor: The Minister has been extremely helpful and explained a great deal. He has said that the Common Market cannot spend more than its budget entitlement. May I suggest that the Government have connived in the exceeding of those limits in several ways? We all know one example of that.
Hon. Members will recall that, just before Christmas, we heard a statement from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in which he proclaimed the merits of the agreement on milk quotas. He said that it was wonderful that, for the first time since we had joined the Common Market, we had reduced CAP expenditure. In a letter that was sent to all Conservative Members, which we were all glad to get, he said:
"The package as a whole involved saving in the Community Budget in 1987 of nearly 1 billion ecu (£750 million), and makes a valuable contribution in the major task facing the Community of containing 1987 expenditure…The package represents by far the most significant reform of the CAP since our accession in 1973."
We expect Agriculture Ministers to say things like that because it is a competitive industry, but I was astonished to hear the Minister of State use virtually those words this afternoon because he, if anybody, knows what the score is.
The real score was set out in a written answer which we have had to dig out. It showed how the £750 million saving was made. I hope that the Minister will say something about it. We have all seen it in the banner headlines and received letters saying that £750 million has been saved. How? By transferring £800 million to national expenditure for butter dumping. In other words, it is a cheat. There is technically a saving in CAP expenditure, but we are saving

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by switching responsibility for butter dumping to member states. I am sure that the Minister of State, Treasury will say, "Do not worry. They still have responsibility for paying and they will give us an IOU which is repayable in 1989 or thereafter." He and the Government know that we are simply kidding ourselves. We have adopted a device to pretend that agriculture spending has been cut when in fact it has been increased by transferring spending from the Community to member states. My right hon. Friend the Minister gave that written answer on 12 January.
This is not the only device that we have used to find a means of increasing Common Market spending by not increasing the budget. The Minister of State knows that a court decision went against us in December. As a result, the Community can now have a direct debit facility on the United Kingdom Treasury for advance payments that it asks for, and it is not necessary to come to the House for approval. That was a case which the Government fought and lost. The contributions are to come from our Consolidated Fund.
We had a decision last year to transfer 25 per cent. of the storage costs, which are substantial, from the Community to member states. We had the co-responsibility levy, which meant that £400 million which was formerly carried in the budget is now the responsibility of cereal farmers. A series of devices have been used to increase total expenditure by what I can only describe as accountancy stretching which would make Derek Hatton blush.
We know that the budget will be overspent or that the Community will be bust. Almost every month, various devices are used to transfer spending from the Community to member states. Looking on the brighter side, I suggest that the Government are kidding themselves. We know that the 1·4 per cent. VAT ceiling, which was meant to last several years, has now been used up. We know, too, that world food prices are collapsing. We know that dumping is on a larger scale than ever before and that production is soaring.
I suggest that we have to accept that we shall not reform the CAP. It is not possible for member states to find a reform because the only way in which to reform it effectively is to put a heck of a lot of farmers out of business. The only way to resolve too much production leading to huge surpluses, and to match production with needs would be bankrupt many farmers and put them out of business—unless, of course, they are to be paid for doing nothing. The Community will never make such a decision because one country will always be having an election, and there is no way in which such a package will not discriminate against one member.
We should realise the responsibility and potential of our farmers. For the sake of our agriculture and the Community, and in the interests of the farmers, why do the Government not aim to repatriate agriculture from the Community to member states? Some people may say that that would wreck the Common Market, but it would do nothing of the sort. It would take away from the Common Market the nightmare that knocks its finances for six and gives it a bad name.
Member states would be far more effective in resolving the problem of surplus than is the Community, even when it works together. In considering the great triumph—as it has been called — of the epic agreement on milk
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quotas, we should realise that, like last time, we are paying a heck of a lot of money to farmers to agree not to produce milk, although the total production will still be in excess of our needs. Those farmers could quite readily transfer their land to the production of other foodstuffs which are already in structural surplus. Like other agreements, it will not solve the problems, but will simply cost more money and transfer the problem from one side to another.
The Common Market needs two things. First, it needs a country that has the guts to say that it will not grant any more resources until the problems are resolved. As this is one of the few subjects on which we still have unanimity, I hope that it will be us. I hope that when the supplementary budget allocation comes, as sadly it will, the British Government will have the guts to say no, because that is the only way to achieve reform. Secondly, we should concentrate on ensuring that, in the interests of British farming and the Common Market, our policy takes agriculture away from the Community and allows it to concentrate on the other matters which could, and would, be more helpful.
We should not try to kid ourselves that there is progress where it does not exist. The Government should stop saying that silly agreements are solving problems when they are not. We should be realistic and accept that, although there is a crisis, there is a way out. For the sake of Europe, we need the courage not to allocate any more resources.
6.22 pm
Mr. Jack Thompson: I shall concentrate on those EC matters in the report that are relevant to the northern region, which is my part of the country. Like several hon. Members who have already spoken, I note that the document covers the period from January to June 1986. It was printed and presented in October 1986, but it is now being debated in January 1987. Like others, I believe that there should have been an opportunity to discuss those issues long before now.
Northerners are not noted for their sympathy towards many aspects of the European Community. When the United Kingdom decided to join the EC, there was considerable concern in the north about the costs and benefits which could result from our membership. That concern has been proved well founded as regards regional aid. However, total responsibility for the limited evidence of response to regional needs does not rest entirely with the EC.
On 8 December 1986 the Prime Minister, in her statement to the House at the end of the United Kingdom's presidency of the European Council, said:
"It has been a priority of the British presidency to make the Community work better for the benefit of individual citizens. This was a practical and successful Council, relevant to jobs, to our future prosperity within the Community and to the future safety of our citizens."—[Official Report, 8 December 1986; Vol. 107, c. 22.]
Those of us from the northern region, who reflect upon the problems besetting us, regard that comment with some cynicism. That is because there is evidence in the document, although it is six or seven months out of date, to suggest that the committed budget for the regional development fund in 1986 was £1,879 million. Of that, £1,823 million was in the main allocation and £56 million was for the non-quota measures. It is incredible that less than one third of the main allocation has been taken up in the half year. I assume that it has now been taken up,

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but we cannot be certain. However, £593 million was taken up, of which the north received £21 million. I am taking these figures from the document because it is the only evidence that we have. That represented 3·54 per cent. In the non-quota section, we should receive £7·5 million over a five-year period to compensate for, among other things, the decline in the steel industry. That is a miserly average of £1·5 million per year. If that is the situation that the United Kingdom faces, what about the northern region?
The north of England has the highest level of unemployment in the United Kingdom, apart from Northern Ireland. More than 83,000 young people under the age of 25 are genuinely out of work, of whom one third have been out of work for more than a year. Although the Paymaster General announced new measures yesterday, I am concerned because young people do not see those measures as real jobs, no matter how well-intentioned the measures may be.
The regional average for unemployment in the north is nearly 17 per cent. In south Tyneside it is 27·5 per cent., in Hartlepool 23·3 per cent., in Middlesbrough 21·8 per cent., and in Sunderland it is 20·8 per cent. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) said that the average in his constituency was 22 per cent. In my constituency, which covers Warton and Ashington, it is 18·3 per cent. Unemployment is the nub of the problem, yet, to help alleviate it, we received a derisory 7·6 per cent. of the total United Kingdom allocation.
A year or two ago, as a member of my local authority, I was a member of a delegation from the Association of County Councils from the north of England that made a representation to the Government on behalf of the region. We were advised by the then Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, now the Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry, who has been mentioned earlier today, to go back to the north because there would he no new initiatives to combat our problems. He said that we should pull ourselves up by our boot straps. That Victorian expression is as out of date as the Government's policies for the regions. The fact that the delegation represented the entire region was completely ignored.
Since then there has been a further development in the formation of the Northern Regional Councils Association and the Northern Development Company. That represents important progress towards a regional dimension. It is vital that the Government recognise that progress and show some evidence of support for those new initiatives.
Although efforts have been made to attract EC support by direct approaches to Brussels — I have been a member of one of those delegations—the Department of the Environment seems to have a policy of blocking applications. For example, my region made an application under article 15 in respect of many areas that are hard hit by job losses. There are several such areas. Blyth, for example, has suffered the closure of Bates' colliery, and significant help is needed to overcome that problem alone. Along with many other projects, there has not been any response, except for some moneys that have gone to Sheldon. Only this afternoon I have found that there is still no response from the Department of the Environment on those applications. This year, sympathy has been shown in Brussels towards the regions, but sympathy has not been shown by the Department of the Environment.
Mr. Eric Forth: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that since the entry of Spain and Portugal to the Community—which he and the Labour party supported wholeheartedly—it has been inevitable that there should be a movement of Community regional support away from his part of the country—the United Kingdom is one of the wealthier countries in the Community—and towards the less prosperous parts of the Community, especially Spain and Portugal, the Mezzogiorno in Italy, and Greece. Does the hon. Gentleman, in his Socialist heart, agree that we should ensure that Community resources are allocated to the poorer members of the Community and that, therefore, his own region, however hard hit, should give way, in the greater scheme of things which the Labour party has supported, both in terms of regional policy and of the enlarged Community?
Mr. Thompson: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have a Socialist heart, and it reflects many of the things that he has said. We have to identify the position within the European Community as a whole, including countries which are as wealthy and substantial as we are, and within the United Kingdom.
Since 1979, more than 170,000 jobs have been lost in the northern region, mainly in mining-associated industries, heavy engineering, construction, distribution, hotels and catering. There is a question mark over further jobs in those sectors. N.E.I. Parsons is facing the prospect of reducing its manpower by another 800, and possibly losing all the skills that it has unless we get some orders for power stations. The northern region is putting pressure on the Government to make a decision about a couple of coal-fired power stations, but not with a great deal of success.
The northern region has a large, highly skilled work force, many of whose members are out of work. They have the talents, but their time is being wasted. They are standing in dole queues. There is a keen interest in learning new skills. I have just noticed in my local regional newspaper a typical example of the northern attitude to life. At the age of 82, Mr. George Bow, from Durham, has just achieved a Bachelor of Arts degree through the Open university. That is an astonishing example of the characteristics of the people in that region. He is not the only one of that age who has made such an achievement.
The Open university recently told me that it is keen to put on courses for people who have particular skills that are no longer required in shipbuilding, heavy engineering and mining, so that they can retrain and move further in the education system. However, the finances are not there, and the funding of the Open university has been cut.
I remind the House that, historically, the region has contributed considerably to the wealth of this country—for example, in the development of the electricity generation industry. Since the establishment of power stations, they have principally been fuelled by coal. They were designed and built by many of the electrical, mechanical and civil engineers from the north, and they provided the base for the massive expansion of employment opportunities in other parts of the country, in particular the south-east. That expansion depends on energy, as it has done for many years and will continue to do. We have made a great contribution to the economy.
There is a significant difference between the attitude of the EEC and that of the Government towards regional policies. Although I have claimed that not sufficient EC

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funding has been channelled into the north, I accept one thing—that at least the EC has some form of regional policy which, with all its limitations, identifies regions within the Community which, because of the changing pattern of national economies, warrant preferential treatment. There is no doubt about the sincerity of the EC towards the peripheral regions. What is in doubt is the Government's commitment to the regions.
6.33 pm
Mr. Roger King: I was relieved to hear, at the beginning of the speech of the Minister, that an agreement has been reached between the EEC and America over the trading difficulties that have occurred over the past few months. There is always the danger that, once one commences on the slippery slope of a trade war in any shape or form, there is no knowing when one can get off that slope. We in the west midlands were concerned lest the development of a trade war included aspects of the car industry, on which many of our hopes and aspirations are concentrated, with products that are due to enter, or are already selling well in, the United States market.
It is funny that so many European countries and organisations, and not a few in our country, tend to pour out anti-American sentiments but the moment that there is the whiff of a trade war, hands go up in horror, and it is the end of civilisation as we know it. We should put on record our grateful thanks to the United States for maintaining as much as it can an open policy for European exports into her market place, bearing in mind that she is very much the engine of the western industrial world.
Mr. John Mark Taylor: Is there not a justified appreciation in this country for the defensive shield that the Americans provide in Europe?
Mr. King: Yes, Europe owes the United States a great deal and I am grateful, as I am sure that all of us are, that we have arrived at an agreement, which we hope will stand the test of time, and that we can continue to trade with the United States on as fair and equitable a basis as possible.
My criticism of the six-monthly report tends to centre, as it so often does, on the problems of the food mountain and the agriculture policy. I am not one who can go into great detail over various economic aspects of it, but my constituents are at a loss to understand why we constantly generate vast surplus stocks of butter, beef, wine and so on. They are always astounded to learn that we sell large quantities of these surpluses to the Russians. I believe that, as we speak, a deal is going through to sell large quantities of butter, on which some people have put the price to the Community at £250 million. That is a £250 million gift to the Russians, which obviously they will be able to spend in other ways that are probably not at all beneficial to the western Alliance.
Latterly, some steps have been made in tackling this problem. It has not occurred during the first six months of the report, but in the last few weeks, steps have been taken to try to distribute some of these surplus stocks to the various member nations. These concessions will be available through various relief agencies. We all look forward to that happening. However, surely it is not inconceivable that we can arrive at a more permanent answer as to how to tackle the growing problem of
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surpluses. Is it not possible to develop a system whereby these cut-price European gifts are available to certain members of our community who are not normally able to purchase butter, beef and wine?
In my constituency, many pensioners and those on low incomes have not had the benefit of a joint of beef for many years. Could we not create supermarket Euro-zones where such produce is available at reduced prices for those who qualify for it? After all, those on supplementary benefit or who are unemployed, and have a family, are entitled to milk tokens. It would not be out of the realms of reality to have a system of beef tokens, butter tokens and even wine tokens, which would be a step in the right direction.
Mr. Forth: I am interested in the line that my hon. Friend is pursuing. Is he aware that, ever since the CAP was set up, those who support it have argued against what he is suggesting, because they say that the policy of having a minimum price, which is the basis of the CAP, cannot allow a policy of lower prices or give-away goods because it would create a second market with the possibility of black markets, which would destroy the concept of the CAP? Therefore, does my hon. Friend share my puzzlement at the Government's acceptance of a recent scheme that appears to introduce the very element that he is suggesting and might, in the medium to long run, destroy the basis of the CAP?
Mr. King: I prefer to think that the Government have seen the light, because the section of our community that is likely to be able to purchase these products at reduced prices is made up of those people who have not purchased butter, beef and wine in the past. I see no difficulty in offering those people the opportunity of buying that sort of food and drink at reduced prices, because it would not necessarily affect the ordinary market which the vast majority of the population uses to buy those products. It is a reasonable way of having a two-tier price system, and I do not think that it would affect the overall market for the products sold at normal retail prices if these goods were sold at a discount in so-called supermarket Euro-zones. We should look closely at the experiment that will take place and find out how successful or otherwise it is.
I am disappointed in the world of aviation, because little progress has been made to reduce air fares throughout Europe and to open up the skies of Europe. The report suggests that by 1992—a dim and distant date in the future—some progress will have had to be made and some policies introduced. I wonder whether the report gives a date in the distant future as a way of shelving the problem in the face of great difficulties being put forward by some member nations. I am grateful to note from my hon. Friend's opening speech that the number of states that are prepared to introduce an open-skies, competitive aviation policy is growing year by year. One looks forward to that growing ever further.
One of the obstacles to progress is the concept of a national state airline, which so many countries throughout the world consider to be a macho point. A country must have its own national airline. That is probably a stumbling block, especially where the national airlines are subsidised by member states in various ways. If we had free and true competition by privatised airlines and those state airlines that are competitive, other national airlines might be in difficulty and end up going out of business. Europe looks

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closely at what has happened to the United States' open-skies policy. Some member states can be forgiven for thinking that that is not a solution that they would like for Europe.
If the European Community is to mean anything at all it should be an open community, market and business area. We should work to reduce and eliminate national organisations such as airlines, which are sheltered from the full blast of competition.
I notice that there are problems with various aspects of the trade that we enjoy with member states, but looking closely at the chart at the back of the report, there are grounds for optimism, certainly with regard to our manufacturing industry. It is fashionable for many hon. Members to suggest that our manufacturing industry is on the way out, but the figures show something different. Between January and June 1985 and January and June 1986, taking those two dates for comparison, there has been growth in our exports—small and modest though it may be—from £10·9 billion to £11·3 billion. That is not as big a growth as we would like, but the reasons for that will have to be looked at. The reduction in the price of oil — which has shown a downturn in the corresponding period—has affected our balance of trade with Europe. Imports have gone up correspondingly.
However, there are grounds for optimism, because as the months have passed and our currency has become competitive—compared with Germany and one or two other member states — the market for our goods has grown. There has been substantial growth for the car industry in the European market. In Germany, exports of Austin Rover cars have increased 90 per cent. in the past 12 months. In Spain — despite the problems of the import tariff restrictions—the number of cars entering on the full tariff is about 4,000 to 5,000 above the normal, acceptable levels that we are allowed at the reduced rate.
Given the present trend, there is no reason why growth in Germany should not be another 90 per cent. this year. We shall then begin to experience the real volumes of car sales that we need in Europe.
The picture is not confined to our own indigenous car manufacturer. Ford, Vauxall and Peugeot-Talbot are exporting finished cars back into the European market because of the competitiveness of the product. Component manufacturers also have an unparalleled opportunity to supply to companies that produce cars in Britain, and, indeed, to supply to the continental assembly plants the thousand and one components that are used to make a motor vehicle. That shows the substantial opportunities that we have over the next six months or so to make inroads into our balance of payment deficit with the European Community. One would expect to see the manufacturing figures rise substantially.
European Road Safety Year started in 1986, and the report touches on the first six months. Having had the benefit of 12 months of European road safety, I am not sure how many suggestions or how much road safety legislation have been put forward—not a great deal, I suspect.
I hoped that some coach safety legislation would be drawn up—for example, a European standard of coach construction as a response to the many accidents that have occurred throughout the European highway system, where coaches have been involved in accidents and have been badly affected structurally. We have waited in vain, and
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presumably negotiations are continuing to arrive at the right sort of legislation, which is acceptable to all and offers improved safety for the user of those vehicles.
All in all, the situation is—as one might say in a school report — "fairly satisfactory, but must keep trying". There are grounds for optimism for the country's manufacturing industry as a result of our currency competitiveness, and many manufacturing concerns realising that at long last their products are extremely competitive in the European market. It has taken longer than we would like, but if one is making the right product at the right quality and right price, and can deliver on time, and if one is prepared to go and sell that product in Europe, the European Community can give the results that our manufacturing industry has been asking for all these years.
6.48 pm
Mr. Jack Dormand: There can be little doubt that the most important issues in this debate were those raised by the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor), who made a powerful speech. I am tempted to follow him in his arguments. However, I shall make a short contribution and concentrate on drawing attention to that part of the report dealing with EEC regional policy. My hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Mr. Thompson) has spoken for the northern region, but perhaps I can go a little wider than that. However, I shall certainly refer to my area.
Many people's expectations of EEC help for their region have simply not been realised. That does not surprise those of us who still reel that our membership of the Community has little to offer the United Kingdom. However, we are a member and we do what we can to improve it.
The EEC requires its member countries to submit reports on their regional policies. I remind the House that it was fortuitous that we learned about the British Government's submissions. It was the assiduity of my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) which revealed the content of no fewer than 17 volumes of the Government's report entitled "UK Regional Development Programme 1986–90". In particular, my hon. Friend drew attention to its frightening annex called "UK Regional Job Deficiency Projections". Among other things, those projections show that in 1990 3·2 million people will be unemployed in the United Kingdom. That contrasts vividly with the Prime Minister's statement yesterday about getting rid of unemployment within two or three years.
The Government's guilt with regard to that report was demonstrated by the Prime Minister who, when questioned about that unpublished report — my hon. Friends will remember this—tried to give the House the impression that the Government's only role was to collate the information for which the Government had asked regional bodies, local authorities, business and trade associations and others, and that the Government had simply put it together for the EEC. That was very misleading. The report is the most devastating commentary yet on the failure of the Government's regional policy. It is little wonder that they tried to conceal it.
Therefore, in a debate of this nature, we are entitled to ask what the EEC and the British Government are doing about such a sorry state of affairs. That report and the

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recently published, much publicised, and, incidentally, long-delayed, 1984 census of employment are the most savage indictment of the Government's incompetence and uncaring attitude towards the worst hit areas of Britain.
Those reports have given rise to the phrase which now dominates the media — the north-south divide. That division has led the Government to try a new tactic in an attempt to fudge the issue. "Ah," they say, "it is not really like that. There are prosperous areas in the north and depressed areas in the south." Are the Government really saying that pockets of so-called prosperity or pockets of depression are the criteria by which to judge large areas of the country? That is what they appear to be saying. Is the Prime Minister saying that my area, the northern region, which has consistently had the highest rate of unemployment outside Northern Ireland, is to be compared with the southern region?
Is that what is to be said when the census to which I have just referred shows that 94 per cent. of total jobs lost since the Government took office in 1979 have been in the north, in Scotland, Wales and the midlands, and when the southern triangle, which, incidentally, has 42 per cent. of Britain's population, has had job losses of only 6 per cent.?
Although the blame for that must lie with the Government, we must ask, in a debate such as this, how EEC rules, regulations and policies can mitigate the worst effects of the Government's incompetence and lack of understanding and compassion. The present position is that the EEC regional moneys have no noticeable effect on the hard hit areas of Britain. The report gives the following figures. The European regional development fund commitment budget for 1986 was £1,879 million. As hon. Members will know, that fund has two sections. Of that, £1,823 million is for allocation to member states in accordance with the quota ranges in the main regulation and £56 million for the specific Community—non-quota—measures.
That sounds an awful lot of money, but by the end of the six-month period that is under debate this evening, the United Kingdom had received £21 million. In my county of Durham alone, which is suffering from the devastation of pit, steelworks and other closures, shipbuilding contraction and bankruptcies, we could use double that amount. I hope—I am glad that we have not seen it so far—that there will not be any cheering or euphoria about the effectiveness of the EEC's regional policy.
Mr. Forth: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Given that regional policy has existed in the United Kingdom for some 50 years and has been pursued by Governments of all parties in an effort to reduce regional disparities, and since we have arrived here in the 1980s, having gone through all that process but still experiencing what he has just described, how can he persuade the House that regional policy, applied throughout that period by all Governments, has failed so miserably?
Mr. Dormand: That is the third rather lengthy intervention that the hon. Gentleman has made. I do not deny that the hon. Gentleman has made salient points, but it might be better for him to make his own speech. My specific answer is that we do not yet have a perfect regional affairs policy. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck said, the regional policies of Labour
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Governments were a darned sight better than anything that has been produced since 1979. If I had more time I could deal with the deplorable consequences of the Government's regional policies since 1979, and I intend to do so in future debates.
What power does the EEC have over the decisions of member countries which are manifestly detrimental to our depressed regions? I hope that the Minister will give me specific answers when she replies. I give two current examples. The Government announced last week that regional development grants will be cut by half next year. That aid will be reduced from £396 million in 1986–87 to £197 million in 1987–88. The north's share of £67 million will be halved at a time when unemployment in the region continues to rise. Many firms depend on regional development grants and have based their investment programmes on the assumption that they will get the allocation promised to them. The Government and Conservative Members are continually calling, and with complete justification, for stability in financial and economic matters, but they are not practising that.
The position is exacerbated by my second example—the Government's decision to delay the payment of regional development grants. The Minister need not accept my view of the problems arising from such erratic policies — she probably would not, anyway. However, this month the CBI said:
"We know just how disruptive these moratoria can be for firms in the regions. Companies budget for an expansion project having received grant approval, only to find a two-month delay on payments slapped on at the last moment. Cash flows suffer."
What the CBI then says causes me even more concern:
"More worrying is that businesses might start to turn away from RDGs because they just do not think that the time and effort involved are worth the grant."
Those are the words of the CBI. It is a chilling statement, particularly for areas such as the northern region, where so much employment is literally dependent upon those grants. Of course, there is no guarantee that any shortfall in United Kingdom grants is made up by assistance from the EEC. Indeed, that is not the way the system works.
Another problem of regional policy that disappointingly receives no mention in the report—I must admit, in deference to the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Forth), that neither Conservative nor Labour Governments have solved the problem—concerns what is usually called the branch plant economy. Those are units of either national or multinational firms placed in the regions. Unfortunately, they have not stood up to the economic recession.
In the 1960s and the 1970s those factories were welcomed and hailed as a success story, but not many of them have survived. My region, more than any other, has suffered from this problem. I believe that such units could be made viable but the financial, industrial and economic structure on which they should be based can only be brought about by a fundamental change of policy. I suggest to the Minister that the problem is worthy of a joint study and investigation by the British Government and the EEC. I hope that the Minister will give serious consideration to that suggestion.
We are forced to conclude from this report that EEC regional policy is largely ineffective. I do not lay the blame for that state of affairs entirely at the door of the Community because it works under considerable constraint with regard to that policy. If we have to be

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members of the EEC, I hope that the Community will strengthen its regional policies, if only to mitigate the disastrous results of Tory Government's policies, national and regional.
Between 1979 and 1986, job losses in the United Kingdom totalled 1,632,000—representing 7 per cent. Of the total work force. In the northern region that loss has been 171,000, representing 14 per cent. of its work force. Those are figures that we have to live with, and they get worse every day.
The Government's deliberate reduction of regional aid in the eight years since dry came to power is one of the worst features of their deplorable record. The Government's recent decisions, some of which I have mentioned — indeed, the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) gave another excellent example — show that the Government have no intention of changing course.
There is less than one page on regional policy in the report before us today and that is yet further proof of the fact that we cannot rely on the EEC to bring some hope to our deprived areas. It is a bleak picture and one which will be changed only by the return of a Labour Government at the next general election.
7.3 pm
Mr. Hugh Dykes: I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in the debate, but I shall be brief, as I am aware that other hon. Members wish to speak.
Part of tonight's debate has been the usual run-around on some familiar tracks and themes.
Mr. Eric Forth: This will be no different.
Mr. Dykes: I paused for that intervention, and I hope my hon. Friend appreciates that. I am grateful to him for reminding me that we should try to say something different on these occasions. It is rather difficult, because the existentialist question about our membership of the Community arises, and that diverts us from dealing with the practical points of that membership. I believe that the worries about our membership are declining and I get the impression — I again run the risk of amusing my hon. Friends — that Europe is on the move and that the United Kingdom's attitude is more positive.
If politicians give the public the opportunity, they are interested in what is going on in Europe and they have a true interest in developing one of the leitmotivs of the Government—the development of the internal market. That market is not only a mercantile, commercial, industrial and infrastructural body, but it is concerned with politics.
We are witnessing the development — in terms of industry and commerce—of a unitary state. The United Kingdom and other countries will come together because of economic harmonisation and unity and slowly — perhaps too slowly for certain Members of this House and other good Europeans elsewhere — that will have a political effect.
I look forward to the day when someone quite naturally, without any feelings of strangeness or inhibition — indeed, someone who is used to the habits of foreigners—goes to whichever financial institution, in whichever country, offers the best mortgage. It may be for
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a house or flat in Britain or within the Community. There are myriad examples in the future tapestry. The development of the internal market is the fulcrum of future developments. The Government are enthusiastic about it, but there are other areas where the Government have to enhance their enthusiasm. I refer to the membership of the European monetary system, which has already been mentioned in the debate.
I believe that our amendment is constructive and detailed, and the last line quite rightly refers to Sir Henry Plumb's accession to the presidency of the European Parliament. In a remarkable way, Sir Henry Plumb combines the very Englishness to which my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) referred with a striking enthusiasm for Europe. In chemical terms, that must be reassuring to the small and dwindling number of people who may still be uneasy about working, living and operating with foreigners. However, more and more people have become excited about developing and encouraging different aspects of European co-operation, and a number of items have been referred to in the debate.
I believe that air fares are a pressing matter. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister and her colleagues will pull out all the stops—if that is the appropriate phrase—to reach a European system of justifiable, low air fares. One can give a homespun example by comparing the United States air fares with our system of air fares. Indeed, the example was quoted on a recent radio programme on Europe in which I participated. In the United States there is a service distinguished by the colloquial name "the red-eye special". It is a late night flight from New York to Los Angeles. The cost of the fare is cheaper than the fare between London and Nice. That is a disgrace by any objective measurement. I hope that we shall achieve significantly lower air fares when all the elements in that complicated tapestry come together.
The future of the EC depends on many things, but I believe that its progress is inexorable. Many people are now aware of the Community's advantages, be they practical, political or to some extent ideological. I do not believe that that ideological advantage is in any sense similar to the polarised ideological descriptions that are used in Britain.
The Single European Act is brand new, and as such no examples of its work are available, but I believe that it represents the basis for constructive, serious majority voting within the European Community. I am sure that that majority voting will operate more often in the interests of Britain than against. As good democrats, we should accept the notion of majority voting, as it has taken Europe a significant step forward. We should also accept any decisions when we represent the minority, because that is what it is all about. I also hope that the use of the national veto will almost disappear.
One of the items mentioned in the description of the presidency and also in a White Paper refers to the development of European television. There have been complaints from a number of quarters that the proposals would mean an unfair and bureaucratic quota system which would demand a minimum percentage of European programmes being shown on the developing Europewide television nexus. As a good Conservative I abhor any extension of bureaucratic structures, but I believe that some such system will be essential at least in the initial, rather shaky development of European television.

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First, there is the pre-eminence of the English language in the European scenario. That is very attractive for us, so why should we complain about it? It will, however, militate against programmes in other languages having more than a very limited market unless they receive some special assistance in the launching period. Secondly, world television will be swamped not just by world satellite development, including pop channels, but by United States programmes, which are marketed on a much wider basis and often dubbed in the United States. There is thus, sadly, a danger of being consigned an excessive weight of "Dynasty", "Dallas" and other admittedly popular rubbish from the United States and being deprived of the opportunity to see better programmes from Europe. [Interruption.] There are, of course, exceptions. There are some very poor quality programmes in Italy, for instance. Nevertheless, the intellectual development of European television with the sharing of knowledge and culture among member states will initially require some special arrangements, although I hope that they will wither away as time goes on.
There are also technical considerations, such as the need to avoid duplication of system, and I hope that when high definition television comes in 1992 or 1993 the essential agreement with the Japanese will be achieved.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: As a democrat as well as a Conservative, does my hon. Friend not appreciate the enormous danger to the freedom and independence of broadcasting organisations if they have to show programmes simply because there is an EEC quota, rather than use their artistic and intellectual judgment? That is why the BBC, the IBA and, happily, the Government utterly oppose such a system. In a democracy the decision should be left to the broadcaster, not to the bureaucrats in Brussels.
Mr. Dykes: I can see the attraction of that argument, but not in the initial stages, because expert producers in this country are becoming increasingly knowledgeable about the high quality of programmes being made in other European countries. So long as the quotas remain minority percentages, as they are in the proposed scheme—
Mr. Taylor: Sixty per cent.
Mr. Dykes: That is the highest percentage that has been enunciated, but lower percentages are proposed in other areas. So long as the quotas remain minority percentages, there will not be total dominance, but programme makers in all countries will be assured of a fair crack of the whip. There will also be programmes made by British, Italian and German programme makers together. Those programmes will have a reasonable chance in the initial stages which they would otherwise not have. I do not think that that modest statement counteracts the democratic impulses that I share with my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor).
With regard to the budget, it is sad that some hon. Members — again, the number is dwindling and I am sure that it will continue to diminish—are still prone to hysteria. I am saddened when they misunderstand these matters. Yet they ignore the vast expenditure, despite monetary discipline of individual member Governments,
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including the British Government. Those Members are very rarely present when millions, if not billions, of pounds of expenditure go through on the nod, but if the European Community tries to get by with £200 million or £300 million there is a great outcry. They continue to see all manner of sinfulness in the European budgetary system, yet they participate in national budgetary decisions in countries with substantial deficits, such as our own. Italy probably has the largest, although Germany has a large deficit when one includes the Lander. The deficits of member states total about £100 billion compared with the very modest amounts required for the European budget.
Payments and receipts are supposed to be equal in the European system, although the system is out of line at the moment. I believe that the problems can be fairly easily resolved by correct procedures in the Budget Council and throughout the Community, but not by the hysterical view that they represent some terrible catastrophe. I wish to see budgetary discipline in the European Community and curbs on excessive agricultural spending. It should be noted, however, that last year aggregate farm support in the United States was just above that in the EEC, although it involved less than half the number of farmers in an approximately equivalent population.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: That is wholly misleading.
Mr. Dykes: My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East frequently, though probably accidentally, misleads the House on these matters. For example, he claimed earlier that the European Commission had issued a diktat that marks of origin had to be abandoned. In fact, the Commission sent out a letter following the decision of the European Court — rightly, in my view — saying that compulsory marking as it existed in some member states was in restraint of community trade and therefore could not be compulsory. It did not stop manufacturers putting marks of origin on their products if they wished.
Mr. Taylor: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Dykes: No, my hon. Friend made a long speech and he has constantly interrupted from a sedentary position. We listened to him in relative silence.
Mr. Taylor: It is in Hansard of 1 December 1986, at columns 434–35.
Mr. Dykes: It was a decision of the Court, not the Commission, as my hon. Friend the Minister confirmed earlier.
It is interesting, attractive and worth while to see the Community developing a common foreign policy. I hope that it will have major views on the middle east, given the paralysis of decision-making on these matters in the United States. As the United States does not usually handle foreign policy matters with any great skill—I say this with regret as we are all friends of America, but the evidence in recent years has been monumental — the European Community, with its greater skills in this area, has a great deal to offer in reaching towards solutions in very difficult areas of policy and crisis such as the middle east.
An area of great concern to us all which has already been mentioned in the debate is South Africa. Paragraph 10.6 of the White Paper begins:
"On 27 June the Heads of State and Government expressed their grave concern about the worsening situation in South Africa".

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I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on her forthright statement on the severe and agonising crisis in South Africa and on what she and her colleagues have tried to do.
Since that paragraph was written — it is now a historical document, issued in October 1986 — the situation has become far worse. There is total press censorship and the ominous new development of censorship of the speeches of Members of Parliament. At present they are censored only in the press, but the way things are going the time will no doubt come when they are censored in the Pretoria Parliament itself. That has disadvantages even for the Pretoria regime as rumours increase and abound in South Africa and outside about what is going on. The latest suggestion is that some 30,000 people, including children, have been detained and that between 2,000 and 3,000 people, again including children, have been killed.
Sadly, the regime in Pretoria shows no sign of making any concessions. The visit by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary during the British presidency was a wonderful opportunity for Pretoria to show sincerity in seeking reform and modernisation in that unhappy world, but there was no response to that opportunity. The alliance foreign affairs spokesman referred to my right hon. and learned Friend's visit but did not mention the earlier visit by the Commonwealth Eminent Persons Group when the beginnings of a negotiating possibility were, I believe, deliberately sabotaged by elements in the South African Government who saw it as a chance for a breakthrough by one or two slightly more moderate figures in that very depressing Government.
Here, too, there is not only the important role of the United Kingdom Government in saying and doing whatever they can to try to get Pretoria to see sense at last, and outside interference and suggestions are entirely legitimate. There is also the European Community itself, as a much more important force, representing the moral and political authority of the 12 member states acting together, with the will to insist that Pretoria now begins to put its house in order.
I hope that during the current presidency and later in 1987 massive efforts will be made to do those things that 1 have described in broad terms and also to consider the possibility of equating more closely to the United States' position on limited sanctions. I am not an enthusiast for sanctions, but unless Pretoria itself shows signs of responding to the increasing rage and anger of not only its black population but many sensible whites, and to outside pressures such as those of the European Community, only misery, total revolution and chaos can ensue.
I concur with my hon. Friend the Minister in congratulating Willy de Clercq on the recent negotiations with the United States. He is turning out to be one of the more brilliant in a collection of very distinguished Commissioners and has done very good work there. It shows that, as the United Kingdom gets used to working with the various organs and channels of the European Community, including the European Parliament, we get more self-confident. I should like to think that it will be as one of the economically strong of the four main states in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development listing, the four main members of the Community. That will come later, because at the moment Italy seems to perform better than we do, although it is supposed to be the weakest of the four. Nevertheless, it will
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come, together with the political self-confidence which will mean that, once and for all, these arid, sterile and old-fashioned arguments about whether we should have joined in 1973 will be totally otiose and out of date.
7.21 pm
Mr. Eric Deakins: I always seem to have the pleasure or privilege of following the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes). Our views on this matter are as diametrically opposed as those of any two hon. Members can possibly be. He is, of course, a federalist. There is an increasing number of them, though still a small minority, mostly on the Government Benches and in the alliance parties. I sometimes wonder about the hon. Gentleman. When I hear the speeches that he makes on this issue, I wonder whether he is in the right party. I do not think that the Prime Minister—I cannot speak for any future Conservative leader—shares his views at all about the future, whereas the alliance parties are the only two major parties in British politics completely committed to a federalist solution. I do not agree with that solution, but the hon. Gentleman knows me well enough to appreciate that I will not spend time rehearsing arguments with which we are both familiar. We have been through this many times before in the House since 1971 and even longer than that outside the House.
I wish to begin by looking at the document which the Minister, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) said, disposed of in a few minutes before going on to talk about the glories of the subsequent six months of the European Economic Community. In paragraph 1.4 reference is made to a single European market
"to realise more fully the benefits of our membership of the European Community."
That phrase, if it means anything at all, implies that there have already been considerable benefits to the British people and economy. I take just one example to undermine that particular claim of the Government, a point to which the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) referred—the balance of manufacturing trade.
In 1972, the last year before Britain entered the Community of Six — there were only six members originally—we had a small deficit of £257 million in our manufacturing trade with the six original members of the Community. In 1985, the last full year for which figures are available, the deficit had increased to £9,706 million, a net worsening of our trade balance during the first 13 years of our membership of £9·35 billion. With benefits like that, who needs disadvantages? The damage is already being done by membership and it happens to coincide with our period of membership. The figures also give the lie to the arguments used originally to justify our entry into Europe—arguments which succeeded in misleading the majority of the British people that it would be for the trading benefit and economic advantage of this country to remain in the Community in 1975.
Those figures are unanswerable. To do them justice, the Government always seek to avoid this issue and merely talk about the percentage of our exports which go to the EEC. There is nothing wrong with an increasing proportion of our exports going to the EEC, but what really matters in the end is the actual volume of trade in both directions and the net advantage and disadvantage. As we go further into the single European market, the

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Government's hopes will no more be fulfilled than were those of the British people, such as the hon. Member for Harrow, East who advocated entry in the early 1970s.
It may be that the Government would argue, as they have sought to do in paragraph 1.15 about the EUREKA initiative, that there are advantages in technical co-operation. Every hon. Member in his right mind will be in favour of technical co-operation between Governments, companies, and so on, in order to spread the cost of research and development and to take advantage of specialisation in different countries. What do we find? The most successful civil project of technical co-operation in the last decade, certainly since we entered the Common Market, has been the Airbus project, but that project had nothing whatever to do with our membership of the EEC. It was a project negotiated between the Governments of four countries—and rightly so. It appears to be a very successful project, and one that will have every success in future, but as an argument for our being in or out of the Common Market, it is quite irrelevant.
The same goes for the EUREKA project, which the Government have the gall to mention in connection with this six-monthly review in paragraph 1.15. The EUREKA project is for 19 European states, plus the Commission. I cannot think why that is; it is not as though it is a state yet. Those 19 states are much wider than the Community: they embrace the whole of western and northern Europe. So there is no need for Britain to be a member of the EEC to have the benefit of such technical co-operation. That again gives the lie to some of the arguments by the Confederation of British Industry in the early 1970s and again in 1975 to justify our membership.
Paragraph 2.16 of the document refers to liberalisation of capital movements—something that I am sure will be widely welcomed and accepted on the Government Benches. What worries me a little is that we, Opposition Members, do not seem, officially at least, to have woken up to the implications of this for Labour party policy when Labour forms the next Government—that liberalisation of capital movements and the single European market will undermine many of the major policies that Labour will be putting to the British people at the next general election.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), who will make an excellent replacement for the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, has gone on record as saying that while we are not against further liberalisation, we want to repatriate capital that has gone abroad, and he has put forward a very ingenious scheme for doing so. There is nothing wrong with that, except that those who know about the Common Market and the way in which it operates will realise that this goes right against the liberalisation of capital movements—
Mr. Dykes rose—
Mr. Deakins: I will give way in a moment—and the whole purpose of the single European market, which is to allow capitalists in any country absolute freedom to invest where they like. There can be no restrictions. What is more, there can be no inducements or penalties, as my right hon. Friend has suggested. I am sure that my right hon. Friend is taking this point on board, but it will be a rather tricky issue for us to handle unless we come out now
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and say that we are not in favour of further liberalisation of capital movements as implied in the single European market.
Mr. Dykes: I have great respect for the hon. Member's candour and his knowledge of European law. Has he not admitted something which is central to the economic policy of his colleagues on the other side of the House? They know that because these things are governed by directives they cannot undermine or unpick them and therefore the policies on which their economic strategy is based are in tatters before they start.
Mr. Deakins: I would not go all the way with the hon. Gentleman on that, but I remind him and the House that my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) and I were co-authors of a pamphlet, published towards the end of last year by the Labour Common Market Safeguards Campaign, which I recommend as good reading. My hon. Friend dealt with the economic aspects and I dealt with the political aspects of our membership. We proved conclusively that there is incompatibility between some of Labour's economic policies and the existing rules and regulations of the EEC and its whole spirit.
Mr. Dykes: Good.
Mr. Deakins: Federalists will say good, but this conflict has to be resolved. I hope that when we are in Government after the next election we will be determined not to kowtow to EEC rules and regulations. We shall ensure that the Labour Government will be able to carry out the policy on which they will be elected, without regard to Common Market rules and regulations.
There are two major issues in this debate. With respect to the Minister—I am sorry she has left the Chamber and that she will be replying to the debate — in this debate we are commenting on budget procedures and financial control measures. It would have been helpful if the Minister of State had replied, because he does know his subject. He has made a couple of interventions, but he is rather restricted. This report says that the 1986 budget was disputed. The 1987 budget is also disputed. There is increasing — I hesitate to use the word "chaos" —financial uncertainty about the future economic and financial development of the Community. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) made the very good point that no one knows what will happen next year on the budget and on financing of Community expenditure.
One of the problems in the disputed budget last year and this year is the attitude taken by the European Assembly. The Assembly is spendthrift because Members of the Assembly, no matter how distinguished they may be, like the new President, have no responsibility for raising money. In my opinion—I hope it will eventually become the opinion of my party—they should have no responsibility for spending money. They have power at the moment to influence expenditure, without any responsibility whatsoever to answer to taxpayers in individual countries for the raising of that money. It is for national Parliaments to control EEC expenditure. It is representative Members of national Parliaments who are responsible for the raising of the money and answerable to the electorate, not members of the European Assembly.
In paragraph 2·15 we are told that in future the budget is to take account of the cost of the past. Is that not a

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defeat for a point of view that used to be put forward by Her Majesty's Government—that they did not recognise that the cost of the past ought to be a factor in budget considerations from year to year, and that there ought to be some other way of dealing with it?
Even worse, we are entering a period of deficit financing for the EEC, although that is illegal under the treaty of Rome. On 24 November the Minister of State said:
"There is no question of expenditure in the draft 1987 budget exceeding that allowed under the 1·4 per cent. VAT ceiling. If the funds are not available, they cannot be spent and expenditure over the VAT ceiling would have to be cancelled or deferred." — [Official Report, 24 November 1986; Vol. 106, c. 107.]
Can anyone in their right mind believe that spending towards the end of next year will be cancelled, and how can spending on the common agricultural policy possibly be deferred? There must be some other solutions.
Her Majesty's Government, before Christmas, were casting around for expedients, as the hon. Member for Southend, East said in his excellent speech, to try to square the circle, to prove that with less income than budgeted expenditure one can overcome that deficiency. The same problem faces a number of Labour councils, especially in London. It is surprising that the Government should be lambasting those Labour councils for doing something that they are encouraging the European Community to do, of which they are a principal member. There is a great deal of optimism on the Government Benches about the 1·4 per cent. VAT limit. That paragraph, and it is rather mealymouthed, says:
"it was generally recognised that these, and other, pressures would have to be contained within the 1·4 per cent. VAT ceiling."
Why are those words "generally recognised" used? Are they not a euphemism for the fact that it is not generally agreed? If it was generally agreed, the Government would surely have use the word "agreed" in that sentence in that paragraph. The Government's attitude towards the budget next year and the programmes it will bring with it represent once more, as in 1986, a triumph of hope over experience.
In 1987 will we have a supplementary budget or an intergovernmental agreement? The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office suggested that the financial crisis might be resolved in one of these two ways. I remind the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Minister and the Government that the Prime Minister has set her foot firmly against the idea of intergovernmental agreements. The Prime Minister, in the statement on the European Council in London, said:
"If one goes in for more intergovernmental arrangements, one fundamentally undermines the discipline." — [Official Report, 8 December 1986; Vol. 107, c. 27.]
I hope that those responsible in Britain for tackling these budgetary crises will bear in mind the very wise words of the Prime Minister on that occasion. Unquestionably intergovernmental agreements have undermined budgetary discipline and led to the postponement of the real issues of the future financing of the Community.
That is not all. In the debate on 24 November, which was a rather more technical debate—I have no intention of going over the points I made then, to which the Minister of State, Treasury was kind enough to try to reply—I said that there are a lot of things wrong with the budgetary and financial procedures in the EEC.
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I want to draw attention to one aspect which bridges the gap between what happens on the budget and what happens on the common agricultural policy. In paragraph 3·15 of this report there is reference to the representative rates under the common agricultural policy. These have been devalued by most member states of the Community. In that paragraph there is no estimate whatsoever of the cost of devaluing the representative rates, yet there is unquestionably a cost to the Community which could have been estimated and was not. Our Government should have insisted that cost estimates were presented to the Council by the Commission before a decision was made by the Agriculture Ministers, no doubt subsequently approved by Finance Ministers, to approve the devaluation of representative rates. This is another means whereby the impact of the CAP is partly disguised. There is a hidden cost there and we do not yet know what it will be.
Finally, I turn to paragraph 2·19, where there is a reference to changes in the relationships of currencies to each other in the existing exchange system of the European monetary system. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), who spoke on behalf of the Liberal party and possibly the alliance, did not understand the system because he talked about Britain not being a member of the European monetary system. He should know by this time that Britain is a member of the European monetary system, but not of the exchange rate mechanism of that system.
The European monetary system is in chaos because the system cannot cope without constant realignments, having set rates of relationships between different currencies. There is some flexibility, but every year or every two years it will be necessary to change the balance completely. My objection is not to that—that might be inevitable under any system— but changing alignments of rates distorts the whole financial control over what goes on in the EEC. Every time the rates are changed, as they were last autumn between France and Germany, and also between the states in West Germany, with a devaluation of one currency and a revaluation of another, that increases the cost of operating the Common Market by raising the costs of the common agricultural policy. I shall come back to that in a moment.
Mr. Dorrell: The hon. Gentleman isolates a problem which arises because of fluctuations of currency and then criticises the machinery which damps down those fluctuations. Surely, without the machinery the fluctuations and the probems that he identifies would be worse.
Mr. Deakins: If there is a fixed mechanism, it must be comprehensive; otherwise it should not exist at all. It is like going back to fixed exchange rates with a little floating within certain bands. I am not an economist so I may be shot down by those who know more about these matters. but I would have thought that that was a disadvantage. With the world moving over to floating exchange rates, I would have thought that that was a much greater advantage to traders and merchants than the European monetary system.
The common agricultural policy has dominated the debate. I do not need to go into details because it is widely accepted that the costs of the common agricultural policy are increasing. The costs to Britain are increasing, but they are partly shielded by the system of abatement which was agreed at the Fontainebleau summit. One thing that the

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hon. Member for Southend, East did not mention in an otherwise excellent speech was that the abatement system agreed at Fontainebleau is tied clearly and definitely to the 1·4 per cent. maximum VAT rate.
If it should become necessary—as it will towards the end of 1987 — to consider going up to a 1·6 per cent. VAT rate from 1 January 1988, the whole system of abatement will come under challenge again and there will need to be another summit to reassess whether there should be an abatement for Britain. We shall go through the mill once more. Incidentally, I assure the Government that they will have much more trouble in the House over a 1·6 per cent. VAT rate than they had over the 1·4 per cent. rate. We had hoped after Fontainebleau that the issue had been resolved for ever. Now we shall have it back with us, as some of us forecast at the time, no more than three years after that much-trumpeted agreement. The agreement will have to be renegotiated if we are so daft as to go up to a 1·6 per cent. VAT rate.
On the CAP, paragraph 1·10 of the White Paper mentions savings that were made in 1986. My remarks are directly for the benefit of the hon. Member for Harrow, East, who may or may not have been getting at me when he said that some Members were emotional about these things and did not understand finance. I think I know more about it than he does. I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee, and no one on that Committee has taken a greater interest in financial management and control than I have. I only wish that the Labour party would take more interest in these matters. It is because of that experience and that interest that, although I am not an expert, I hope I can speak at least as someone who knows what he is talking about.
In paragraph 1·10 we are told that the savings on the CAP for 1986 were against the original proposal of the Community. Contrasting savings with proposals is no way to exercise financial control. The proper way is to contrast the saving with the estimated outturn. The Community does not yet work to estimated outturn figures. It is about time it did.
In regard to the December agreement on dairy and beef products, here again the Government have misled the House. In the Minister of State's statement to the House on 17 December there was virtually no reference to information which was given to the House two days later in a written answer, after the time for questioning the Minister had passed. The Minister did not tell us what was in the written answer, namely, that there was
"a Commission paper outlining plans for a two-year stock disposal programme covering 1 million tonnes of butter. The Commission proposes to finance this"—
here are the important words—
"by deferring the reimbursement of member states of any losses on these sales for two years and then making four equal annual payments borne by the Community budget in the normal way. For the period of deferral interest will be paid to member states on the amount outstanding." — [Official Report, 19 December 1986; Vol. 107, c. 832.]
The answer went on to point out that no detailed arrangements had been made. If the Minister had told that to the House on 17 December, his much-trumpeted dairy agreement would have had a different reception, even from his own Back Benchers who thought that it was a good agreement. We should be grateful to the hon. Member for
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Southend, East and to other hon. Members who asked written questions which elicited the information from the Government after the event.
I do not wish to echo the arguments of the hon. Member for Southend, East, because that would be superfluous. We are told that there is to be a £1·3 billion saving over the next three years because of that agreement. As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, most of that will be because the costs of the common agricultural policy are being switched to national budgets. What is this, in effect, but a loan by member Governments in advance to the EEC to finance current expenditure, a loan which will be paid back hopefully from future annual budgets? That is what the Minister's answer meant. It is one expedient after another.
In her introductory remarks, the Minister of State made an interesting statement when she said that the costs of surpluses should not be for the EEC alone. I think that I have quoted almost her exact words. That is a major change in one of the basic principles which have dominated the EEC since its foundation in 1957, and which we had to accept when we become a member on 1 January 1973.
One of the three basic principles is that there shall be common financing of common problems. We are now departing from that principle. I do not object to the departure, but I point out to the House that the principle is being breached by those who trumpet most about the principles when those of us who object to the CAP say that it should be swept away root and branch and a different system substituted. The EEC is undermining by stealth the system to which it is so dedicated.
The devaluation of representative rates leads to extra costs, but it has another consequence for agriculture and for the costs of the CAP. Again, it is one to which very few hon. Members have paid attention. However, it is important. Every time representative rates are devalued, prices to farmers in national currencies go up. When that happens, that is all that matters to the farmers. They are not interested in the national rates negotiated in the annual price review in Brussels or wherever, although there is much trumpeting about them by the Government because they reduce the cost of the CAP. What the Community takes with one hand—by price freezes or sometimes by price reductions — is given away with the other by changes in representative rates. The Government have actually boasted about that.
The Minister told us — and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has said on other occasions since the agreement in December—that there have been cuts in the price for beef in the EEC. Technically, that is correct; there were cuts in the beef price last April for the marketing year 1986–87, but what the Government are also telling us in written answers, though not in public statements on the Floor of the House, is that British beef producers will be better off because of the devaluation of representative rates. So the Community, by its financial manipulation of the common agricultural policy, is sabotaging financial discipline and increasing the cost of the CAP in practice.
The hon. Member for Harrow, East likes to tell us that we should consider practice, not theory. When we consider the practice, we see that the Community speaks with two voices, a forked tongue, or whatever the appropriate analogy is. It is doing one thing on the one hand, and completely the opposite on the other. There has not been

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a cut in beef prices; instead, there has been an increase for most farmers in many member states. I am not arguing whether that is right or wrong; that is a different matter. What I am saying is that the Community should get its house in order. There is no sign that it will ever do that.
My last two points are references to the ways in which the common agricultural policy is spreading out its tentacles into other areas. Two are mentioned in paragraphs 3·32 and 3·33. [Interruption.] I am sorry that perhaps the expression "tentacles" is not a happy one, but the hon. Member for Harrow, East will understand my use of it when I mention the particular paragraphs.
Paragraph 3·32 refers to the Community, for the first time, agreeing production refunds for certain manufactured sugar products. The Community price for sugar is way above the world price. Manufacturers who use sugar in certain products, if they export to the rest of the world, naturally are penalised because their imports are much higher. There will be production refunds for manufacturers. That will be a cost of the common agricultural policy. There is no estimate in paragraph 3·32 — I challenge the Minister to let me know whether there is such an estimate — of the cost of production refunds. In addition to the known costs of the CAP, there is a hidden cost. There is another hidden cost in paragraph 3·33. For the first time, there will he a refund on starch used in manufactured products. I have no objection in principle to these refunds, but the consequences to the Community budget and to the common agricultural policy will be serious. There has been no estimate of costs.
I challenge the Minister of State on a future occasion —he is not able to reply on this occasion — to say whether it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government, when future proposals on agriculture or on any other aspect of Community expenditure and activities arise, to insist that, first, the Commission should provide estimates of the cost involved before Ministers reach agreement. If they do not, they will reach agreement in the dark.
The common agricultural policy is completely out of control. There is financial chaos and indiscipline. Who speaks about the principles of budget discipline? Ministers pay lip service to the principles — that is all. It is a regrettable situation and it will not be resolved except by the Government, later in the year, coming back to the House with an intergovernmental agreement, against which the Prime Minister will set her face, or with a supplementary budget or some other cock-eyed idea for somehow deferring expenditure so that, eventually, income and expenditure will match. If we keep pushing a balanced budget further into the future, eventually, with costs continuing to go up, in deference to the hon. Member for Harrow, East, there will be a real financial crisis in the Community. The Community is behaving in the way in which the Government are accusing some Labour councils of behaving. Frankly, I support Labour councils because they have particular problems.
This is what value for money is all about. It is not about querying the objectives of policy, but determining whether management and so on are sufficient to ensure that objectives are achieved. That is not happening in the EEC, which is what the debate is all about. It is about time that the Government did something about it.
7.52 pm
Mr. Stephen Dorrell: It may be because of the limited number of Labour Members of
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Parliament that I seem quite often to find myself speaking in the same debates as the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Deakins). Sometimes I am able to say that I agree with the general gist of what the hon. Gentleman has to say. But if the first 10 minutes of his speech today accurately reflect his basic approach—and I think that they do — to our membership of the European Community, I totally reject his basic analysis of the subject. Some aspects of the detailed points to which he referred later in his speech require proper answers either today or later.
One of the matters on which I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes), with whose general approach to the subject I am in sympathy, is the statement that this is only a few hundred million pounds and, therefore, we do not need to worry about it. The House, quite properly, should ask, "What is the purpose of public expenditure, and is it being used for the best possible purpose?" It is too simple and too glib simply to gloss over the matter and to say that it is very small in the context of the whole.
Mr. Dykes: If I said that, I used my words wrongly. I did not mean to convey that impression. Millions of pounds are often voted through our Parliament, and other national Parliaments, without Members paying the slightest attention. There has been a searchlight on every single item in the European budget in a way that appears to be illogical and out of balance. That is what I said.
Mr. Dorrell: If my hon. Friend sought simply to draw a distinction between the different approaches to relatively large and small sums, he had a point. It is right that the House should ask whether public expenditure is effective for the purpose for which it is voted.
I congratulate the Government on the basic approach that they adopted during their six-month presidency of the Community. Some useful work was done. They were quite right to concentrate attention on developments towards a completion of the internal market, the removal of unnecessary restrictions to the flow of goods around the Community and, perhaps more importantly and more fundamentally, to seek to remove some of the longstanding restrictions to the provision of services between countries in the Community. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East made that point, and I agree. There were well-reported fights to try to liberalise the provision of air transport.
Those achievements are the result of the priority that the Government gave to the completion of the internal market — a priority that I believe was right. Our six months' presidency of the Community has brought about some practical achievements, and that is to the Government's credit. My right hon. and hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench have every reason to be proud. The initiatives that the Government took to try to co-ordinate the activities of Community countries against the threat of terrorism was an important initiative and one on which they should be congratulated.
The hon. Member for Walthamstow and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) devoted most of their speeches to drawing attention to imperfections in the Community. Of course the Community has imperfections. Few human institutions do not have imperfections. The imperfections of the common agricultural policy, I freely concede, are pre-eminent

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among the imperfections of the Community. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East by way of an intervention, the main shortcomings of the common agricultural policy are the result of the weakness of main budgetary authorities within the Community. The weakness of those authorities follows directly, and is the necessary consequence of, reluctance on the part of the House and other Parliaments around the Community to delegate the power necessary to achieve proper budgetary discipline in the centre of the Community. The weakness of Community institutions produces the problems within the common agricultural policy to which my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East and the hon. Member for Walthamstow drew attention.
Mr. Deakins: I fully agree with the point that the hon. Gentleman made. Does he accept that there are real weaknesses in the budgetary procedures in the Community? It is not a case of Britain giving more power to the centre — there is plenty of power in balance between the two — but of the procedures? If the Community—if it is to last for much longer—were to adopt the sort of financial procedures that Ministers of any party must adopt, it might be on a better wicket.
Mr. Dorrell: The hon. Gentleman used the word "procedures", and I used the word "institutions". I am not sure that I wish to argue the semantic difference. I take the point that the hon. Gentleman made. It is because nobody in Brussels has the responsibility or authority to hold the purse strings and to determine spending priorities. That leads to the nonsense that make such easy prey for antimarketeers.
Although I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench on their useful if sometimes rather modest progress during our presidency of the Community, the time has come to seek to give the Community a new impetus to achieve identified and clear goals. I shall suggest some outlines as to the direction in which the Community should move in the foreseeable future. Once again, I distance myself from some of the points that have been made by my hon. Friends the Members for Harrow, East and for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer). One of the problems encountered by supporters of our membership of the Community is that they tend to get carried away by their enthusiasm and imagine that the Community can deal with defence, our relationships with the middle east and the whole panoply of the responsibilities of the state.
The fundamental insight that led to the success of the Community in its early years was the perception on the part of its founders that a successful basis for European union had to concentrate on a relatively narrow sphere of responsibility. We do well to remind ourselves that in its early days, the Community that led to the foundation of the Common Market was concerned solely with coal and steel. It was narrowly defined. The leaders of the Community would be well advised to try to achieve a similar form of concentration. We could do worse than return to the old name of the Community — the European Economic Community — and seek to concentrate its efforts back to the area of economics.
Mr. Deakins: Absolutely.
Mr. Dorrell: The hon. Member for Walthamstow nods vigorously because he believes that that will allow the Community to withdraw from the political sphere and from greater political shared purpose. He is wrong. I advocate that approach because it would produce a more soundly based Community, which would achieve much faster the purposes of European integration that my hon. Friends the Members for Harrow, East, for Clwyd, North-West and I all have in common.
Mr. John Mark Taylor: My hon. Friend is developing very cogently his point about the origin in coal and steel in the Community and his wish for a concentration on economic matters. However, surely he would concede to me and the House that the original objective of the Community was the political one of reconciliation after war. As long as the objective is wider and political, he cannot keep it entirely within an economic frame.
Mr. Dorrell: That was the point I was seeking to make in response to the sedentary intervention made by the hon. Member for Walthamstow. If the Community concentrated on economics it would be able to make more progress and it would be seen that the Community was achieving results. Therefore, it would develop a momentum that would give it a stronger political presence than it has at present while it is trying to advance on all fronts and facing the danger of running into the sands. We would be well advised to make the sphere of responsibility slightly less ambitious and concentrate on economics.
To develop that point, I shall mention the concern of my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench to complete the internal market. That sits four square with our belief in the market system and it is a belief that I strongly share. If we look at the total impact of Europe in the world's economy, we see that by far the most important single cause of Europe's collective weakness is its fragmentation. The completion of the internal market is an attempt by the leaders of Europe to resolve that problem and try to exploit the fact that in Europe we have the world's largest developed market.
As part of the new impetus towards European integration, I would like to see a much clearer political commitment to breaking down the differences in product specifications that lead to fragmentation. More importantly, I would like to see a clear commitment on the part of our Government to membership of the exchange mechanism of the European monetary system. If one looks at barriers to trade between different European countries, it is hard to argue with the proposition that the greatest non-tariff barrier to trade are the floating exchange rates within what is supposed to be a market that is coming together. The fact that a British manufacturer cannot know today how many pounds he will get for a product sold in Germany tomorrow because the exchange rate may change overnight, sometimes by I or 2 per cent. within 24 hours, is a major barrier to trade.
Mr. Cash: I am interested in my hon. Friend's speech and he is making some interesting points. However, will he tell me whether, in his words, integration equals economic, and political equals federalism? Does he distinguish between them, or does he think that they are convergent?
Mr. Dorrell: I am suspicious of labels of any sort. I am saying that the countries of Europe should exploit the

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major opportunity which is there for them but which is not being taken. The opportunity will be taken only if they achieve the same unity as our competitors in the United States and, in a strange way, Japan. We should be seeking to fix our exchange rate against the exchange rates of other member states.
We cannot stop there. Mr. Sam Brittan wrote an interesting article in today's Financial Times drawing our attention to the fact that it is no good simply saying that the pound will be at a fixed rate against the deutschmark if one is not prepared to follow up that commitment with the necessary domestic policy consequences of creating and maintaining currency stability within one's chosen area. Therefore, I believe that we have no choice—I would not seek to create a choice—but to join the EMS instead of pulling back from it as we have tended to do in the past few years. We could then develop it further and return to the commitment that the Community has had in form but not in reality for over 10 years; to move towards real monetary union so that there is a binding and fixed currency relationship between the different states of the Community. That would greatly ease the trade in goods and services between different member states. It would ensure that manufacturers and providers of services could exploit their larger domestic market in a way that the Americans and Japanese can but European companies cannot. Although it is not the main subject of the debate, it would also make our monetary policy much simpler and easier to understand and, because of that, more likely to be successful.
As the hon. Member for Walthamstow and his hon. Friends would be quick to point out, it is not enough simply to create a unified market if it benefits the Germans, the French or, more likely, the Japanese. We should not simply create the market place to allow European companies to exploit their strengths. We have to make certain that European companies and, in terms of the House, British companies, are strong competitors within that united market place.
Another aspect of the impetus towards the economic angle of the Community, which 1 urge on my right hon. and hon. Friends, is that we should attempt to ensure that there is more discipline and more Community expenditure on research and product development so that the research base of European industry matches its competitors elsewhere in the world.
It makes nonsense of our commitment to complete the internal market if we maintain a system of national control over monopoly legislation which ensures that the division of Europe into national markets remains the main criterion by which competition policy is determined. If we are really committed to a comprehensive internal market in Europe, surely that should be taken into account by our monopoly and merger regulators, as well as by the people concerned with product specification. When we are deciding whether a particular company has a monopoly or whether a merger should be disallowed on monopoly grounds, we should not look simply at our own narrow national market, but see whether the company that would emerge has a monopoly share of a wider European market. Only by applying that yardstick can we expect to see in Europe the emergence of some world-beater companies that are large enough to take on the technological giants of Japan and the United States on equal terms.
The people who argue that all problems should be dealt with on a national basis fail to face up to the fact that,
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although there is a vibrant small business sector — I warmly welcome that—the weakness in the economy of Britain and Europe when compared with the economies of the United States and Japan is our failure in the past few years to see emerging the centrepieces—big companies—that provide the technological basis for advanced manufactured products. That is the weakness of Europe's economy, and until we allow the internal market and the monopolies legislation to develop to ensure that such companies emerge, Europe will continue to be the poor performer in the world's economy.
I emphasise that, taken as a whole, Europe is the laggard of the world's economy and has been for 15 years. That problem is not exclusive to Britain, because Europe has been out-performed by the United States and Japan and by several newly industrialised countries. In 1939 it was taken for granted that Europe was one of the economic giants, if not the economic giant, of the world. That can no longer be taken for granted, because Europe's economic performance has easily been surpassed by that of our competitors.
I shall now return to the point that I made earlier about Community institutions. The great weakness of the existing institutions or procedures — I shall not argue about which word we should use — is that they are irresponsible. There is no clear budgetary authority. There is nobody whose job it is to hold the purse strings and determine spending priorities. The 17th century political arguments, about which hon. Members should at least be vaguely aware, established beyond peradventure that political power is held by those who have power over the purse strings. The problem with the Community is that the institutions as they exist at present do not provide for convincing power over the purse strings to rest anywhere. The result is that the Community does not have a clear sense of purpose or clear opportunities for leadership.
The Community needs a clear sense of purpose that will lead to some clearly defined economic aims. We do not need to be president of the Community to give that sense of purpose because we can do it at any time we choose. The need is there and it is clear and urgent. I mean no disrespect to the Greeks when I say that if we fail, the whole of Europe will become the Balkans of the world's economy and will be weaker as a result.
8.12 pm
Mr. Robert N. Wareing: I am always interested in hearing the hon. Lady, the Minister of State, leading for the Government. We have one thing in common in that we both represent Merseyside constituencies. She must surely have been as concerned as I was to read in the seclusion of the House of Commons Library, because it has never been made public, the "UK Regional Development Programme 1986–90". That was the Government's submission to the European Community on regional policy. The forecasts in that programme contrast starkly with the sparkling future that we hear from the mouth of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and which we are about to have under a Tory Government.
In the north-west and north of England and especially in Merseyside it is a far from rosy future which the Government themselves foretell between now and 1990. According to this submission, 430,000 people will be unemployed in the north-west of England in 1990. That figure is larger even than today's unemployment figure, yet

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the Prime Minister tells us that unemployment will come down. According to that submission, the position in Merseyside "has continued to deteriorate" since 1981. It says:
"Prospects for reducing unemployment are frighteningly bleak — there are only approximately 4,100 unfilled vacancies in Merseyside".
That has to be taken in the context of the fact that in January 1986 some 196,634 people were registered as unemployed in the area. That is 20·4 per cent.—even on the basis of the Government's massaging of the unemployment figures. The report says that greater Merseyside
"has problems with many outmoded transport facilities unsuited to modern demands, with decay and obsolescence in much of the basic infrastructure … prospects do not appear to be optimistic. Of particular concern is the growing disparity between the availability of jobs and the numbers seeking jobs".
The important thing about this debate is that it allows hon. Members to put on record that which the public has been denied sight of, because they will read Hansard tomorrow and will see what was contained in the Government's submission. That is the truth of the matter and not the made-up stories, the fairy tales, that we hear in the House from the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Although investment is expected in Merseyside in industries such as chemicals, paper and glass and in services such as banking, the report says:
"investment in these sectors may not necessarily he paralleled by employment growth and indeed in many instances may lead to further job losses."
What a prospect for people like those in my constituency where the unemployment rate is well above 30 per cent. Indeed, in some wards in my constituency male unemployment is over 40 per cent.
The report talks about the aging rail rolling stock in my area. It says that there is an inadequate road network inappropriate to the needs of modern goods vehicles. It goes on:
"As far as public transport services are concerned, the main problem is how to maintain such services".
This report was prepared before the devastation wrought in Merseyside and in other areas by bus deregulation. That affects many people, not only those who are old and have difficulty in getting about but also those who are employed. Managers in firms like the General Electric Company in Liverpool, West Derby, made representations to the public transport authorities and, I understand, to central Government.
Regional aid has always been insufficient. The hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Forth) made an important point, but the situation in Merseyside would be much more difficult without a regional policy, inadequate though that policy has been under successive Governments. We would not have a motor-car factory at Halewood or many of the other benefits that regional aid has provided. Under this Government, that aid has been cut and the special development area status of Merseyside has been abolished.
The Government's regional policy has aided mostly the high capital and low employment industries on the periphery of the region. Since 1979, only 2 per cent. of regional assistance to Merseyside has gone into Liverpool itself. The rest has gone to the green belt areas on the perimeter of the region. Conservative members who do not
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believe that there is a north-south divide, spoken about by my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Dormand), should look at the report published last year by the Institute of Directors. It lists 280 towns in order of prosperity and Liverpool's position is 273. The Minister will be interested to know that Birkenhead and Wallasey, part of which is in her constituency, was 271st out of the 280 towns in that rather dishonourable league table.
Mr. Cash: On that point, did the hon. Gentleman hear an interview with Professor Halsey on the wireless this morning? Professor Halsey referred to the social trends report that has just been published. He said, with particular reference to the hon. Gentleman's constituency, that there is not really a north-south divide. He said that there are areas and pockets north, south, east and west and that the Wirral is more prosperous, whereas Liverpool, West Derby has difficulties. We acknowledge that.
Mr. Wareing: Indeed there are pockets of prosperity even within the devastated north of the country. Nevertheless, if the hon. Gentleman referred to the league table produced by the Institute of Directors, he would discover that Winchester is top of the league table. He would also find that the first 100 towns are in the south of the country. I would not argue for a moment that there are not pockets of unemployment and misery in the south. There are. I want to see their problems tackled also. Nevertheless, there is a fundamental division between north and south.
Many people in Merseyside believe that the proposal of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1981 that the Government should aim for a managed decline of Merseyside has occurred. The Prime Minister and the Cabinet in 1981, following the riots in Toxteth, rejected the advice of the then Secretary of State for the Environment, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine). The right hon. Member for Henley produced a report which, again, was never published. The right hon. Gentleman's report "It Took a Riot" prepared after the Toxteth riots called for the problems of Merseyside to be tackled with urgency and resources.
The Government's response to the need to regenerate Merseyside and its economy has been negative. Of course the Government can quote certain instances of assistance. However, on the whole, they have been unhelpful. Local authority resources have been cut drastically. Merseyside county council, which very often served as a chrysalis for the development of schemes and initiatives and which drew Europea regional development funds into the area, has been abolished. In the first five years of this Tory Government, 106,000 jobs have been lost on Merseyside and there was a 22 per cent. drop in employment in Liverpool.
Recently, Mr. Ken Stewart, the MEP for Merseyside, West, received a communication from Jacques Delors, the President of the Commission, who, far from supporting the idea of a managed decline on Merseyside, referred to a report financed and encouraged by the Commission entitled "Merseyside Integrated Development Operation". That report resulted from a study carried out by Roger Tym and Partners and submitted to the Commission in January 1985. The report envisaged a total package of measures covering the years 1985–1990 of £388·85 million. The EEC contribution would be £155 million. Jacques Delors has claimed that little progress has been made. We

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do not have to look far to see why. The additionality aspect is a major factor preventing the implementation of that form of regional package.
The Government are apt to blame local authorities, as the Prime Minister did in a letter to me in October. She blamed that terrible local council in Liverpool with its municipal Socialism. That is the Government's view. Local authorities that want to play a full role and attract funds to develop schemes are not allowed to do so. They are prevented from doing that because they are inhibited by cuts in rate support grant, by rate capping and by the regime of financial stringency that has been one of the Government's major policies. I suggest to the Minister that, if she means to do well for Britain in the Common Market and for her constituency, she should get together with her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and have a word with him about why Merseyside and other regions are being denied EEC funding.
Schemes approved by the Commission for areas of multiple deprivation requiring a local authority contribution should be disregarded for GRE assessment purposes. If borrowing is required, there should be automatic ministerial sanction. European Community aid should not he withheld simply because the Government refuse to provide the necessary resources to enable local authorities to promote schemes using ERDF or ESF financial assistance. In so far as local authorities are so inhibited, the Government are reneging on their responsibilities.
The hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire made an important point when he referred to the inadequacy of regional planning under successive Governments. Probably the most worthwhile instrument of regional planning and location since 1945 was the industrial development certificate system developed as a result of the Town and Country Planning Act 1947.
Hon. Members will recall that the IDC system allowed the Government to tell a firm that it could not invest resources entirely in the prosperous south-east, but they would encourage the firm, with an IDC, to go to the north-east, the north-west or other areas of high unemployment. However, with entry into the Common Market—I never use the word "Europe" in relation to the Common Market because the Common Market is not Europe and I sometimes wonder nowadays whether there is a Community—the IDC policy was destroyed. A firm that was refused the right to invest in the south-east could say, after our entry into the Common Market, that it refused to invest in the north-west or the north-east. It would prefer to invest in the rich triangle in the Common Market where 40 per cent. of the Community's gross domestic product lies, in the triangle between Paris, Milan and the Ruhr. Such economic regional planning under the IDC system, which is vital to areas such as mine, was totally destroyed.
We have long argued that the common agricultural policy takes up too much of the Community's resources. It accounts for some 76 per cent. of the budget and that figure has not changed very much since 1973 when we entered the Common Market. Very little is left for regional aid.
Even the modest amounts that are made available by the Community to areas such as mine are not able to reach us because of the Government's policy of denying the resources to local authorities in those regions which would
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enable them to use schemes to develop the infrastructure and so develop employment and create better opportunities for the people living in those areas.
8.28 pm
Mr. John Mark Taylor: Although I follow a Member for Merseyside, the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing), I should like to refer to the stimulating speeches made by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Deakins) and my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Dorrell).
The hon. Member for Walthamstow spoke about locked exchanges and free floating currencies, and implied that anything in between would be unsatisfactory to international traders. He developed his arguments strongly, but I suggest that if an international trader was given a choice between damped oscillations and unrestrained oscillations, he would probably settle for damped oscillations as the less difficult to work with in his costing and contracting.
I think that I agree with all the eloquent speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough. He spoke of the absence of a mechanism to control and watch expenditure by the European institutions, and his concern about that. The hon. Member for Walthamstow spoke similarly about watchdogging expenditure in the Public Accounts Committee.
I think that the solution that would satisfy my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough and me is if the Budget Commissioner could form a permanent and effective alliance with the Budget Control Committee of the European Parliament. That would be the basis of an instrument in the European institutions for control of expenditure to ensure that it was effective.
I believe in the value of the European Community, but I am not starry-eyed or blind to its shortcomings. I think that the British presidency worked hard at the areas that needed improvement. It did well and made measurable progress. The important areas are referred to in the report. They are budgetary discipline, agricultural pricing, which is still a matter of such anxiety, the internal market, on which approving comments have already been made, and political co-operation, which is one of the success stories which carries almost no budgetary implications and is all the better for that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough mentioned the initiatives on drugs and on terrorism. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. King) made an excellent speech and mentioned the resolution today of the trade difficulties with the United States of America. That resolution is an excellent example of the achievement of greater maturity on political cooperation and growing experience in the Community.
The change in attitude towards the Community budget in the Council of Ministers since 1979 is almost entirely a British achievement. In 1979, our national contention about the unfairness of the distribution of the burden of the EEC budget between member states was isolated. That argument, which was once a British solo, has become the orthodoxy of the Council of Ministers on budgetary matters. That is a great achievement. It is the orthodox view in the Budget Council that the old arguments about juste retour, which were used against us, should no longer carry their original force. It is much more readily accepted that there should be some evenness of distribution.

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By consensus, the CAP is the most worrying feature of the Community. The central orthodoxy of the CAP is also its cardinal weakness. As long as it remains axiomatic that Europe should provide enough food to feed its consumers, we are accepting surpluses. Once we say that, even with a bad harvest, there will be enough to 'feed Europe's consumers, we are saying that in any year that is better than the worst there will be surpluses. It ceases to be an adult question to ask about surpluses. The adult question is what to do with them.
I should like to trespass into the speculation that, ultimately, the only reform of the surplus problem may be a partial abandonment of the axiom that in every year Europe will grow enough food for itself.
I hope that I have given the impression that I appreciate the Government's handling of the presidency. I include in that my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and her ministerial colleagues. The election to the presidency of the European Parliament of Sir Henry Plumb has been referred to. It comes at a propitious time and on the heels of our presidency to demonstrate the British commitment and a belief in British competence to a wide audience. The impressive work of Lord Cockfield in the Commission completes a picture of British participation across the Community institutions.
In the end, the perception of our role in the Community is of the greatest political importance. In the last analysis, it is not how we see ourselves that counts, but how others see us. I had the pleasure of lunching today with Japanese diplomats. It was interesting that their perception of the West was the United States, Europe and Japan. I took the opportunity to suggest to them that it was in their best interests to have the European trade mark office in London because the lion's share of their European activity is in Britain, as is the lion's share of their investment and presence in Europe. I hope that they will take that advice.
In a world of super-powers and major trading blocks, our participation in the EEC is important to us, but British leadership, such as our recent presidency of the Council, is important to the EEC as well.
8.35 pm
Dr. Norman A. Godman: The hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) argued once again for the repatriation of agricultural policy. I have some sympathy for that view and would like the fisheries to be repatriated.
There is still a great deal of concern among Scottish fishermen about certain elements of the common fisheries policy. This is the first time today that the CFP has been mentioned. It is entirely right and proper to subject the EEC and its policies to tough and sustained criticism. Rigorous critical analysis should give rise to prescriptions that are aimed at changing some elements of those policies.
I shall confine my speech to those sections in the document which concern regional policy, research and development and transport. If I can catch the Minister's ear, I should like to outline some of the problems with which Strathclyde and the rest of Scotland is faced.
The economic and employment circumstances in Strathclyde grow bleaker by the day. Nobody can dispute the fact that unemployment in Scotland continues to rise remorselessly. I regret to say that that is especially true of my constituency, so I wish to discuss those problems. I
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shall suggest some proposals which, in the long run, might go some way to dealing with the problem of unemployment.
My proposals concern the implications of the Petroleum Bill for an expansion of employment in Scotland, and the concept that has been vigorously advocated by the Scottish CBI for a Euro-west port on the Clyde. The Government have published a report entitled "United Kingdom Regional Development Programme 1986–1990", which, in one of its 17 volumes, highlights the problems of Scotland. The authors of the Government document suggest that, in the year 1990, unemployment in Scotland will be at least 330,000, and that Scotland will be faced with further job losses in the steel, shipbuilding and coal industries.
In addition, the same report, which was sent to Brussels, suggests that the renewal of outworn infrastructure in Scotland is a priority in urban areas, and that much of it is in need of modernisation. That is the Government's analysis of the problem in Scotland.
I regret to say that in recent years, unemployment in my constituency has again grown at a much faster rate than elsewhere in Strathclyde, in Scotland and in Great Britain as a whole. Since 1981, male unemployment in Strathclyde has increased to 28 per cent., in Scotland as a whole it has increased to 33 per cent. and in Great Britain to 25 per cent. In the Greenock travel-to-work area, the figure is 44 per cent. The male unemployment rate in the Greenock travel-to-work area is now 26 per cent. When the redundancies that were announced by Scott Lithgow before Christmas take place — in fact they are taking place now because 200 men left this week—the male unemployment rate in the area will be nearly 38 per cent. making Inverclyde one of the bleakest areas for unemployment in the United Kingdom.
The problems have, of course, been compounded by the understandable refusal of the offshore oil and gas industries to invest in new structures and facilities, primarily because of the drastic decline in the price of oil. However, there is a chance to increase employment in the offshore oil and gas industries in this country, curiously enough, in maritime demolition. Although I appreciate that it is not his ministerial responsibility, I should like the Minister to convey to his colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry and in the Scottish Office my belief that the Petroleum Bill, which has just finished its Committee stage and is due to come back to the House for Report and Third Reading in a couple of weeks, could lead to a massive increase in jobs. However, we need a comprehensive research and development programme, funded to some extent by the European Community's regional and social funds.
Why do I say that there is a chance to expand employment in this sector? In a nutshell and to oversimplify like mad, the Petroleum Bill concerns the removal or the partial removal of oil and gas platforms and pipelines. With the assistance of Government and the EEC, Scottish firms and individuals could become world leaders in the highly complex and highly skilled task of maritime demolition, just as the Dutch are recognised as the world leaders in maritime salvage. There is an opportunity for thousands of jobs, but the implications are for much more than jobs. We shall need various physical facilities and resources. This work is due to begin in the early 1990s when the first of the platforms will become

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redundant, and will require heavy lifting barges capable of lifting chunks of hardware weighing anything up to 10,000 tonnes.
These scarce resources and skills exist, although not in the United Kingdom. The Government could make a telling contribution in the form of research and development programmes and a training centre. Naturally, I believe that that would be best sited in Greenock or Port Glasgow, on some of the derelict waterfront sites in my constituency. Such a training centre could be set up with assistance from the European Community regional and social funds because there is massive unemployment. When the Petroleum Bill was deliberated in Committee, the Minister of State, Department of Energy at no time denied that those opportunities exist for United Kingdom nationals.
I do not wish to sound xenophobic, but when the work starts, I do not want to see it carried out by migrant engineers, divers and ancillary workers.That work could be carried out by people living in the United Kingdom. Therefore, I request that urgent consideration be given to the funding of research and development programmes for this highly skilled and deeply complicated task of maritime demolition.
The only other people in the world who have any experience of such work are the Americans. However, they have removed structures only from shallow and sheltered waters. We shall have to remove structures and pipelines from relatively deep and dangerous waters. I am speaking as someone who knows a little about the North sea from the deck of a fishing vessel. We have some highly skilled divers—those trained by the Royal Navy are the best in the world, but they are few in number.
The Government, with the EEC, could play an important role by locating the research and development programmes, and the training centre in Scotland, so that those skills may be developed and the work carried out by British, or rather Scottish firms. Hon. Members must excuse my ethnocentrism.
Oil companies have estimated that it will cost about £150 million for the total removal of some of the biggest structures. We are talking about a massive industry and an important element of the offshore oil industry. It would be tragic if the opportunity were ignored or handed over to those corporations and organisations in other countries that have the physical resources and some of the skill that are needed. For example, the Dutch and the Americans have heavy barges.
I am not talking just about demolition but about construction. Scott Lithgow in my constituency could easily, with the aid of Ferguson's and Kincaid, build any number of heavy lift barges. In the next two years, two or three of these vessels wil be needed for such work. I am making an appeal to the Government on behalf of people who are suffering from dreadful joblessness, young highly skilled people who may turn to their traditional Scottish solution to unemployment and migrate to the south of England—God forbid—or further points. I know that the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Forth) has migrated, but that was some years ago.
Mr. Foulkes: Thank goodness.
Dr. Godman: I will reserve judgment on that.
There is no point in analysing problems if one cannot come up with descriptions to tackle them. I have outlined
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one. I genuinely believe that upwards of 20,000 jobs could be created in the task of removing these structures, although the Government talk about partial removal. If it was in the national interest to anchor these structures to the United Kingdom's continental shelf, it is in the national interest to accept that we should remove them completely so that future generations of fishermen can fish these commercially viable waters.
The concept of the Euro-west port depends upon the plans for the Channel tunnel. I have mixed views about that as a civil engineering problem. Looking from North America, Europe has become a more integrated single economy market, and its centre of gravity has shifted eastward across the North sea. The golden triangle is now something like London, Dusseldorf and Paris. It is perhaps questionable whether London is included, except as a financial services centre.
Britain is becoming an offshore adjunct to industrial Europe where maritime transport—the shifting of cargo around the world—is concerned. The combination of these factors has severely affected the ports of Liverpool and Greenock in particular, but also Grangemouth and Southampton to some extent.
The idea of the Euro-west port is that the Clyde is the closest main collection of European ports to North America. There is about one to one and a half days less sailing time between North America and the British ports than between North America and other ports, if the ships go into the Clyde. There are deep water berth facilities at Hunterston and Greenock and there are terminals for bulk and container cargoes. Both of them would need to be expanded. It is possible, by way of the Channel tunnel, to funnel all European travel, with great economies of scale, on to the landward side.
There are other advantages. If we were to have electrified rail links to the continent, it would become extremely advantageous for container firms to send their ships, which are expensive pieces of machinery, to the Clyde rather than have them sail into ports in Europe such as Rotterdam or Antwerp. There are other facilities. There is, or could be, a financially viable and well-managed port administration and there is land available for development.
Sir Anthony Meyer: I am pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman make that point. If properly and intelligently used, the Channel tunnel could be the salvation of west coast ports generally.
Dr. Godman: The hon. Gentleman is right. I am asking the Minister for financial aid in terms of a feasibility study of the Euro-west port concept. It could prove to be an attractive object for shipping companies. Again, I have a constituency interest. The Greenock container terminal is a first-class physical facility with an excellent work force — this is readily acknowledged by most directors of container shipping companies—and excellent industrial relations. Regrettably, the Greenock container terminal has only one shipping line using it, and that is the HapagLloyd line. Unfortunately, it has entered into an agreement with Atlantic Container Line to use the Seaforth container terminal in Liverpool. That means that the Greenock container terminal is under severe threat. All this takes place against a bleak, dark picture of unemployment in the area.
The hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mrs. McCurley) had a meeting with the Prime Minister

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just before Christmas to press upon the right hon. Lady the very severe problems that we are both facing in our adjoining constituencies. I propose that funding for a rigorous feasibility study into the Euro-west port concept be provided by the Government and the EEC.
There are problems in the area. The west of Scotland continues to experience a remorseless economic decline. But we must move beyond simply lamenting the problems and come up with proposals. In these two areas, any Government — even this English Government — should give careful consideration to the proposals that I have outlined tonight.
9 pm
Mr. Edward Leigh: I hope that the hon. Gentleman for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his remarks about the Clyde. We have had a long, interesting and wide-ranging debate. I have sat through it for four hours, but I want to make only a brief point. I want to deal with one narrow part of the document which relates to agricultural price fixing and cereal farmers.
Agriculture is not only our most important industry, it is our most successful industry. Listening to some hon. Members, one would think that farmers were living a life of prosperity and ease—I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. McKay) does not take that view. As the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food's statistics for 1987 make clear, average net farm income fell by 45 per cent. between 1984–85 and 1985–86, largely due to the wet summer that we suffered. I am glad that there has been a considerable improvement in farm incomes, and I hope that we can look for even greater improvement.
The annual review of agriculture for 1987 shows that the cereal harvest this year was a particularly good one, and that aggregate farming income is forecast to rise by 21 per cent. to £1,411 million in 1986. As one might expect with agriculture—which since the war has been one of our most efficient industries — labour productivity continues to rise, and is forecast to rise by 2 per cent.
We have a very mixed picture before us, and it is incumbent upon the House and Ministers to appreciate — as I know Ministers do—the severe problems that face farmers. In that context, farmers are aware of their responsibilities. They are aware of cereal surpluses, and as I meet my NFU regularly, this topic of conversation always arises. I do not think that we can deal with the problem of cereal surpluses — I know that Ministers share this point of view—by price fixing alone. If we dealt with the problem by price fixing, it would probably necessitate a price cut of at least 20 per cent. Otherwise farmers would increase production to meet a shortfall in prices. Therefore, we have to look at a whole raft of measures. I shall deal with what I consider to be wrong before I support what the Government are putting forward in this field.
It is not right to proceed by way of quotas, because they would be a bureaucratic nightmare. There are about 4 million cereal farmers in the Economic Community. We have no cereal marketing board in the sense that we have a Milk Marketing Board, and thus they would be impossible to administer. Quotas would discriminate against United Kingdom farmers, because they would
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discriminate against farmers who have good land and who are efficient and productive. Quotas must inevitably lead to compensatory price increases which would harm the livestock sector. If quotas were introduced there would be no stimulus to competition, and they would lead to severe structural development difficulties.
Many farmers look at quotas with a benign eye, because they feel that they would allow them to plan ahead. The experience of dairy farmers should not lead cereal farmers to want to follow that example.
I am often asked whether we could do more in the EEC to control the import of cereal substitutes. That is an attractive policy and I have looked at it in the past. It is not sensible to use controls that would, in large measure, increase costs. It is fair to say that the EEC import controls on such products as manioc from Thailand. I do not believe that controlling the import of cereal substitutes would solve the problem of cereal over-production.
If quotas are not appropriate for the country—if it is not right to deal with the problem by trying to control the importation of cereal substitutes—what does that leave us? It leaves us with set-aside polices. I have considered carefully the policy favoured by the National Farmers Union, which I understand is a kind of flexible compulsory set-aside policy. That would not be appropriate for Britain because it would discriminate against efficient farmers and farmers on fertile land. It would probably discriminate in favour of farmers on marginal land or small farmers. Taken in the round, the compulsory set-aside proposal would not be the best solution for our farmers.
That leaves the voluntary set-aside system, for which I know Ministers have been pressing in the Council of Ministers. That is the only way forward and I commend it to our farmers. But if we are to make the voluntary set-aside system work and release land from agricultural production, there must be a profit incentive to encourage farmers to enter the scheme. I may be accused of speaking up only for pockets of farmers, but it is not as simple as that. Farmers are business men, and why not? They must be given an economic incentive to join the scheme and I hope that Ministers arc well aware of that.
I do not want to he completely negative. The set-aside proposals — we need to couple set-aside with price restraint, about which the White Paper talks—give us an opportunity to develop our forestry policies. That is one area of agricultural production in which we are deficient. We are less than 5 per cent. self-sufficient in forestry. The returns of forestry are slow. The returns on hardwood production can take as long as 100 years. Therefore, in pressing for a set-aside policy, Ministers must grasp what may be a historic opportunity to increase the amount of land given to forestry. I should like to see the position improved by the tax regime. That is, of course, a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, but, in consultation with our EEC partners, it may be possible, by means of a system of grants and set-aside, and encouragement, perhaps, for short rotation cropping on former cereal land, to encourage an increase in forestry production.
Although the picture for cereal farmers has been mixed — not a good harvest last year but this year a much better harvest and much better prospects for exports this year with much less going into intervention—we have an opportunity to look ahead. Farmers can have confidence in the Government, who appreciate the severe difficulties that face farmers. The Government are

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determined to deal with cereals in such a way that farmers can plan ahead. I stress that. Agricultural production cannot be turned on and off as other forms of production can. Farmers must plan not in terms of months but years.
I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to look at the United States example where price fixing is often done five years in advance, and that gives farmers a chance to plan ahead. It is important, if we are to make a set-aside policy work, to give farmers that degree of certainty and confidence in the future which in the past they have often not had.
I am confident that the Government are aware of the problems and can press ahead. I know too that they realise that they cannot deal with the problem of surpluses simply through the price mechanism. The matter is far more complex. Ultimately, they will have to introduce voluntary set-aside procedure.
9.8 pm
Mr. Allen McKay: In the time that is left, I want to put on record the voice of Yorkshire and Humberside.
I can agree with the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) on the quota system, because I have seen many of my small dairy farmers going out of business, and because many dairy farmers are much poorer financially because of the quota system. Dairy farmers still seem to have severe problems with the system, and it looks as though they will continue. By and large there is no joy for them, although the problems will probably be overcome eventually.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman was not advocating coniferous forestry, which seems to be becoming predominant. I prefer broadleaf and mixed forestry. I certainly would not go all the way with him on what he said about afforestation. The environmental aspects must also be taken into account.
I want to deal with the way in which European and Government policies have affected Yorkshire and Humberside. I regret hearing the Prime Minister and other Ministers telling us that there is no north-south divide. There is a north-south divide, and I am worried by the Prime Minister's statement to the contrary. Her statement means either that she does not know that such a divide exists, which is dangerous, or that she knows that it does exist but does not want to do anything about it, which is even more dangerous. Or perhaps the Prime Minister does not want to talk about it. If the latter is true, we can overcome that problem. However, if the Government do not recognise the north-south divide, how will they solve the problem? If they do not recognise that problem, they will not recognise the measures that need to be taken.
Recent documents showing average household incomes make it clear that the south-east corner of Britain is by far the most prosperous region. The next prosperous regions are the south-west, the east midlands, East Anglia and Scotland. They are followed by the north-west, Wales and the west midlands. The poorest region by far is Yorkshire and Humberside. The Government should take that into consideration.
We consider that the answer may be regional government. Although there are doubts about such a policy, I would encourage such regional government because I should like to see more regional administration. It is clear that Scotland and Wales, which are represented by Ministers, are far better off than Yorkshire and
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Humberside. Therefore, one must ask whether it is because of such ministerial backing that those regions are better off. I should like to see the development of regional government and, if possible, a Minister responsible for Yorkshire and Humberside who could deal with the region's problems.
The region faces many problems and it is clear from unpublished Government documents that while the United Kingdom has lost 7 per cent. of its work force, Yorkshire and Humberside has lost 12 per cent. It has lost 35 per cent. of its manufacturing jobs, whereas the rest of the United Kingdom has lost 28 per cent. The region has lost electronics, electrical and instrument engineering jobs.
It is a historical fact that Yorkshire and Humberside was, for generations, the foundation of Britain's prosperity. Its glass, coal, steel, textiles and in some areas farming all contributed to that prosperity. The Government document, "United Kingdom Regional Development Programme 1986–90" has little encouragement for the region. The Government expect the region to lose 288,000 jobs by the 1990s. That is the Government's forecast of the increase in unemployment in that area. They state that the short-term prospects for the economic development of the area are "not good" and that
"more diversification is needed to reduce dependence on traditional and declining industries".
The Government then say:
"future employment prospects within the coal industry remain bleak,"
and they forecast that there will be further reductions in manning levels by a significant degree up to the 1990s. Such are the Government's estimates of what will happen. When one considers the future of Yorkshire and Humberside and, indeed, the whole of the north, one realises that the future is bleak.
Regional help from the EEC has been useful and I would like more. I recognise that Community aid has been helpful in my constituency. particularly with the Stocksbridge bypass. Such help has been welcome, but it deals with only a small part of the problem.
During the past four years there has been a significant decline in the steel industry as a result of a worldwide reduction in demand leading to over-capacity. This has aggravated the problem for the United Kingdom, as it is faced with low-price imports. We warned the Government time and again of the results of low-priced imports into the United Kingdom and Europe. As cheap steel flooded in from Taiwan and other far eastern countries, we asked the Government to take action, but the Government allowed one of the nation's basic industries to go into decline and there is no sign of that decline ending.
The cutlery industry in Sheffield has continued to experience problems because the Government refused to take action on cheap imports. Much discredit, too, must go to companies in the industry which encouraged the import of cheap blanks, finishing them in this country and stamping them "Made in Sheffield". Those companies have contributed to the decline of their own industry. The Government talk of a change to sunrise and non-manufacturing industries, but the banking and insurance jobs to which the Prime Minister refers will not come to Yorkshire and Humberside unless encouragement is given. The Government must recognise the north-south divide. Rationalisation of the mining industry has a domino effect on the industries depending upon it, producing an even greater impact.

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In Yorkshire and Humberside we have the will to succeed and to overcome the problems, and our work force is second to none. Industrial development land is available, north-south communications are good and we look forward to improved east-west communications. So why have the problems not been overcome? I quote from a report on infrastructure investment. It comes not from the Labour party or from a council in the area, but from the British Institute of Management, which represents management throughout the British Isles. It says:
"Since 1980 infrastructure investment has been one of the most important concerns in the Institute…The two main arguments…are:—Modern infrastructure

(a) a modern infrastructure has cost-reducing benefits for industry which enhance economic performance and competitiveness;

(b) a policy of delaying … renewal of the infrastructure is not cost-effective".

The Government's failure to invest in the infrastructure has helped the decline of the northern regions and of Yorkshire and Humberside in particular.
The British Institute of Management advocates the very policies that we have put forward. It asks for more roads, including a second Pennine road. The Minister knows all about that, as she had responsibilities at the Department of Transport for some time. The institute also asks the Government to consider the structure of the area. It refers to the need for investment in hospitals, roads, schools, housing, water and sewerage systems, all of which could produce genuine permanent jobs. We need a diversification of finance from the prosperous regions of Europe and of this country to Yorkshre and Humberside.
I wish to put two suggestions to the Government. The first relates to the coal industry, which has gone through a traumatic period. It is time that the Government and British Coal stopped pussyfooting about. They keep saying that no one is forced to leave the industry, but what would they have done if the 400,000 men who took redundancy had not done so because it was not compulsory? The financial inducement to leave led people to take up the redundancy offer if they wanted. This has meant that EEC money that should be available for restructuring in the area is not coming in because the Community will not give its money to areas where there are voluntary redundancies. British Coal should now stop this charade and begin restructuring the industry, thereby making the area eligible for further grants from the Community to build the industries which must take British Coal's place.
The grants that are available from the Government are actually working against my own local authority. I would like to put on record my request that the Government look at the way that the grants are given to the northern regions, because it works against them. The northern regions have the men, the will and the desire. All they want is encouragement from the Government and from the EEC. In that way, we could succeed.
9.20 pm
Mr. Gordon Brown: The debate has been both wide-ranging and very detailed in its study of Community policies and of United Kingdom policies. It has focused on the problems posed by the internal market and the problems that have also recently arisen from trade difficulties between Europe and the United
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States; it has focused on the large sums spent by the agricultural fund and the small amounts made available for the regional fund.
We have had speeches from my hon. Friends the Members for Wansbeck (Mr. Thompson), for Easington (Mr. Dormand), who focused on the problems of the northern area, for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing), who pinpointed the problems faced by the north-west, for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman), who made a number of very positive suggestions about how Government regional aid could be increased and spent, and for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. McKay) who also made suggestions about the coal industry and spending on infrastructure. All these speeches have demonstrated concern about unemployment both in Europe as a whole and in this country, where it is felt particularly acutely. They have also expressed our concern that things should be done by both the European Community and this Government.
I make no apology for concentrating the bulk of my remarks on one of the major submissions made by the Government to the European Commission in the past year—our submission to the European regional development fund. It showed that the gap between the rich and poor regions of this country is widening, that the shires and suburbs and the inner cities and industrial towns have even less in common after seven years of this Government, that the gap between rich and poor is not temporary but threatens to become ineradicable as a result of the Government's policies. I want to suggest how, by their failure to secure proper funding from the European regional development fund, their failure to secure proper guarantees about the movement towards an internal market, but most of all by their failure to secure a proper regional policy in the United Kingdom, the Government are exacerbating the division between the rich and poor areas of the country.
We have heard from the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) who made a charge against the Government, that money apparently gained in December by reducing the agricultural budget is money bought at the price of having to increase the contribution of member states. Before the end of the debate, the House deserves an answer from the Minister of State. We need to know whether the Government or the Commission have been guilty of the sort of creative accounting over the agricultural surpluses that might make even their friends in the City blush.
We have also heard an interesting set of proposals about the future of the agricultural fund. We heard from the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. King), who spent a large part of his time dwelling on the Government's success story in relation to British Leyland, just on the day when British Leyland appears to have announced another 1,000 redundancies in the midlands and elsewhere.
The hon. Member put forward a proposal for supermarket Euro-zones and asked about the distribution of agricultural surpluses to pensioners and others. We deserve from the Minister an explanation of how this distribution of stocks will take place throughout the country. Without a clear explanation of who gets what, how it is to be distributed and how many people are to receive it, I fear that there will be no distribution system at all.

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By relying on unfunded charities, we will return to the queues of the soup kitchen society that many fear the Government are to impose anyway on this country by social security policies. Given the spending on agricultural policy that British taxpayers have to bear and the fact that food prices are higher in Britain as a result, it is not Europe that is subsidising the poor families of this country, it is the poor families of this country who, for years, have been subsidising Europe and the agricultural policy.
As a newcomer to these debates I was drawn to a series of Community publications, and indeed publications by the British Government, in the hope that I would secure some enlightenment about some of the more detailed policies being pursued by the Government in Europe and by the European Community. I rather wish now that I had left aside some of the publications that I bothered to consult. One publication that the House of Commons Library put in front of me and that I started to read with interest was entitled "The United Kingdom Presidency July to December 1986". It started by saying:
"The attached note lists achievements in the Community during the United Kingdom presidency".
Our presidency saw the biggest budget crisis ever, the biggest budget deficit in the Community's history and, despite the recent agreements that the Minister of State heralded to the House, the biggest agricultural surpluses ever, a European economic report to the effect that unemployment will not fall this year, next year or in the foreseeable future in any substantial way, and a community regional report stating that regional disparities were about the widest ever.
These are events which, we are to believe from the Government's report to the House of Commons, are achievements of the United Kingdom presidency. To talk of these so-called successes and achievements when they range from the negative to the negligible is bad enough, but to hear the Minister speak of further successes over the next few months is another example of the triumph of hope over experience. I read with interest the claim about United Kingdom achievements over the six months of its presidency in a newspaper report of a speech made by the Prime Minister to the European Parliament, or the European Assembly, as some people would call it. That speech was at pains to emphasise the achievements of the United Kingdom presidency.
The report said that the Prime Minister stated:
"I do not believe we should under-estimate the achievements of the last six months."
The Prime Minister then proceeded to talk about achievements in terms of helping the unemployed at a time when European unemployment is still more than 16 million. Then she said that Britain would continue to lead the pack in facing the real problems. The newspaper report finished by saying:
"Mrs. Thatcher's address made little impact on a sceptical House".
This was in a House where the Conservatives have a majority, we are led to believe.
With European unemployment above 16 million, with 6 million under the age of 25 unemployed throughout the European Community, with the recognition that unemployment is not getting better but will remain at this all-time high, and with the economic report, one would think that the United Kingdom's problems will not get better.
We have heard the Prime Minister promise that we will return to full employment. Therefore, one might think that
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the initiatives on unemployment taken during the United Kingdom presidency were substantial — perhaps a European new deal, a European renewal project, a European war against unemployment, a European war against poverty by creating jobs and improving the infrastructure of this country. But we have not got any of these things. There is no great new initiative, no new programmes of public spending on infrastructure investment and no programmes to improve manufacturing investment. What we have from the United Kingdom, in association with Italy and Ireland, is not a policy to reduce unemployment but a substitute for a policy. In December, the Financial Times called it an apology for a policy on unemployment.
The Government's presidency and their actions in Europe have done little to create jobs or to reduce unemployment. That could not be emphasised better than by referring to the shipbuilding industry, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow. During the United Kingdom presidency, the Government started negotiations, chaired by Trade and Industry Ministers, for a new European directive on shipbuilding. They commissioned an independent report that said that unless the cost subsidy was 36 per cent. we could not bridge the gap between the highly subsidised far eastern shipyards and European yards.
That report was accepted as both independent and excellent. There was evidence from European shipbuilders that subsidies had to be above 30 per cent. The Government were told by British Shipbuilders that unless they secured 33 per cent., the future of the only two remaining big yards, at Govan and in the north-east, would be at risk and the work force might fall from 6,000 to 800. The Government had all that evidence before them when they were chairing the negotiations; yet, after hard negotiation in Europe, they ended up with an agreement for only a 28 per cent. subvention. That is a betrayal of British shipbuilding and puts at risk many hundreds of jobs and communities in the north of England and Scotland.
It is amazing that we, the biggest island trading nation in Europe, with most to gain from a strong shipbuilding policy in Europe, should have agreed to such a level of subsidy. That is the record of the United Kingdom presidency in protecting and creating jobs and in reducing unemployment.
The submission made by the Government to the European regional development fund has been commented upon by my hon. Friends because of its implications for each region. That submission states not as an assumption but as a projection that unemployment will be. above 3 million not just next year but in 1990. For the Government to say that the prospects for Scotland, the west midlands, Yorkshire and Humberside, the north-west and the north are bleak, frighteningly bleak or gloomy, and that it is impossible to reduce unemployment until fundamental problems have been resolved, is an admission of the depths to which they have brought the economy; it is an admission also of the measures that need to be taken to put the economy in order.
What is as bad is that the Government have admitted what is needed, but are unprepared to do it. Throughout the regional reports that are in the House of Commons Library and available to hon. Members but not to the public, there is a recognition of the infrastructure problems that require money to be spent upon them. They

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also contain a recognition of the problems faced by manufacturing industry that require extraordinary measures if they are to be resolved and, most important of all, a recognition of the importance of public spending, which the Government have denigrated for the past seven years. The Government have failed to provide solutions to these problems.
I shall quote from some of the most important conclusions of the regional reports so that Conservative Members can see what their Government have been telling Europe about the problems that have been created during the past seven years. On Greater Manchester, the report states that replacement work on roads, sewers, water supply, railways and building stock
"has not kept pace with the rate of decay resulting in a serious situation in which some aspects of the infrastructure are in a state of collapse. These deficiencies result in a great deal of inefficiency in the functioning of the urban system".
The report goes on to state:
"real dangers exist from sewer collapse and pollution."
On the west midlands, the report states:
"The cumulative effect of under-investment in apprenticeships and in modern plant and machinery will affect the ability of the region to take advantage of any increase in demand."
Mr. Cash: The hon. Gentleman is wrong.
Mr. Brown: If the hon. Gentleman says that this quote is inaccurate, I shall be happy to give way. I am quoting from the report that the Government placed in the Library. It makes it absolutely clear that the failure of the Government to secure manufacturing investment is putting jobs at risk and is a cause of the catastrophic unemployment that we face.
Mr. Cash rose—
Mr. Brown: I shall not give way because the passage that I quoted is accurate.
What is the state of manufacturing investment in the regions? Manufacturing investment is vital to secure the future of our regions and jobs for the future. According to the latest figures, investment in the north of England is 41 per cent. down on what it was in 1979. In Yorkshire and Humberside, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone spoke eloquently, it is down by 33 per cent. In the west midlands it is down by more than 29 per cent., and in the north-west it is down by more than 31 per cent. That is the appalling state of investment that the Government have failed to improve and which they are making worse by their cuts in regional aid. Cuts have even been announced in the past few days.
The other point made in the report is one that the Government would do well to take to heart. The report, on the Greater Manchester area this time, states:
"Due to difficulties in securing private investment … the vast infrastructure … has to be provided by the public sector agencies … It therefore follows that considerable importance attaches to the level of financial resources available to the public sector."
That is a clear sign of what the Government need to do. In their submission to the European regional development fund, the Government recognised not only what the problem is and what the prospects are, but that the solutions required are those that, for ideological reasons, they have spent the past seven years rejecting.
It makes absolutely no sense to cut regional aid, to delay an improvement in the funds available from the
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European regional development fund or to proceed with the internal market when there are no proper guarantees for the regions and no proper safeguards against the implementation of internal market measures that may ruin further prospects for the regions.
Labour Members talked about the problems that face the regions of this country. We did so deliberately. The Government have it within their power, through the submissions to the European regional fund, negotiations in Europe and, most of all, through spending on regional aid, to do a great deal about the problems that face the regions.
In case the Government do not believe that there is a north-south divide and that divisions in Britain are getting worse, I shall quote the Bishop of Liverpool who issued a statement a few days ago which said:
"Let us be quite clear that the divide is true, it is felt and it is very damaging."
Of course there are divisions in parts of the country. There are divisions between the inner cities and the suburbs and the shires, and there are major problems in London. However, the Government cannot deny that they share a great part of the responsibility for the widening gap between the prosperous shires and the inner cities and traditional industrial regions of the country.
The Government's response to regional divisions over the past seven years has been to allow them to widen. They have created an industrial wasteland in many parts of Britain. They have called it recovery and even hailed it as a triumph of monetarism and hoped that no one would notice. Labour Members are aware of the problems. We know what ought to be done. I tell the House that over the next few months we will push the Government back to their last stockbroker belt, their last suburb and their last shire. Very soon they will find that there are not enough millionaires without a conscience to keep them in power.
9.41 pm
Mrs. Chalker: This has been an interesting debate in parts. I welcome the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) to the debate. I understand that he was winding up last week's debate on which many hon. Members wished to speak. He made a far better job of the industrial debate that he had decided upon than his hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) made in the debate on the European Community.
The hon. Member for Hamilton may be a reluctant and a grudging convert to the case for the Community. However, I was surprised at his speech because he showed unmistakeable evidence that he has now accepted the arguments that the Government have been making for some time. I shall explain. He accepted the arguments and looks forward to the adoption of still more internal market measures. A few months ago he was denying that the internal market was of any benefit to this country. He spoke warmly about the Single European Act. Perhaps the arguments put forward against the Act by his hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Deakins) have done the trick. The hon. Gentleman was against the Act then, but every right-thinking person must be in favour of the Act now.
The hon. Gentleman went on to decry the absence of a budget for 1987. I hope that he does not agree that the maximum rate of increase in the budget and the agricultural guideline should be thrown away. Surely he takes the view that they should be respected. He seemed

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to be implying that we should ignore budget discipline. I was surprised at that. I cannot agree with him on that as I cannot agree on many of the other things he said.
So great was the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm that he described some of the achievements of the presidency as trivial. I hope that he will circulate his views on the achievements to those constituencies where jobs have been created, and are being created and safeguarded thanks to the internal market measures that we have negotiated. I hope that he will circulate those remarks to Socialist Governments and the ETUC which agree that our employment strategy is a real basis for creating new jobs. I hope that he will draw his remarks to the attention of his hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), who rightly regards the steps being taken to fight cancer as a major health initiative, one which we fully support.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will defend all that he said in the future. For those whose task it is to protect us from terrorism and for those who welcome the new intensity of co-operation between police forces across the Community, introduced by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, those have been nothing but positive achievements.
Mr. George Robertson: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Chalker: I will not give way. Time is short, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
The Opposition's basic line has been that we have not solved all the problems, so they will pretend that we have not solved any problems. That is simply not true. They are recalling their own experience in office many years ago when they claimed to have solved all the problems of the Community, whereas they knew full well that they had solved none of them.
I refuse to share the alarmism of the hon. Gentleman about the Community and the negative approach that is adopted to every challenge that arises. The problems are serious and that is exactly why I drew attention to them in my opening remarks. However, they are not so serious as to defy solution. Throughout this debate we have heard the twin themes of the vital need to control spending on agriculture and firm budgetary control. Those twin themes are completely shared by the Government, as is the importance of the structural funds. That is why I want to speak about the budget.
We have never hidden the fact that the Community faces a serious budget deficit. However, the agricultural measures agreed in December will alone save £1·3 billion over the next two years. More reforms must be undertaken to save still more money, but the commitment to reform started in April and achieved in December was a major step towards the agricultural reform that is so necessary.
I agree with my hon. Friends that we need a better system of budgetary control in the Community. The existing budgetary control mechanism has led to two readings of the budget in which the Council has agreed to constrain expenditure within the agricultural guideline. Hon. Members should not forget that last year the Council of Ministers won an important case in the European Court of Justice. It constrained the European Parliament from unilaterally adopting a budget which exceeds the maximum rate of growth in expenditure.
Hon. Members bemoan the fact that the lack of a budget in 1987 may constrain expenditure on the structural funds. The lack of a budget reflects the
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determination of the Council of Ministers to bring discipline into Community expenditure and, above all, into CAP spending. Even without a budget and with the provisional twelfths regime which is now operating, spending on the structural funds will continue at the levels of last year.
The year 1986 was within budget and we know that past commitments have built up, but payments made are no more than the amounts budgeted. That is control on spending. Spending is constrained by the VAT ceiling. That was the case last year, and that will continue. We are on the one twelfth basis because the Council of Ministers has refused to exceed the maximum rate of permitted expenditure. We cannot have it both ways and we will achieve budgetary control of spending.
Of course there is pressure for more spending in the Community. We heard that pressure in the debate and it is a serious problem. That is why the Government negotiated the Fontainebleau agreement, and we must not forget what it entails. By the end of this year Britain will have got back from the Community £3,000 million in rebates on our budget contribution. That is why, even with expenditure in the Community as a whole running up to the 1·4 per cent. ceiling, our own VAT contribution remains well below the old 1 per cent. ceiling. The VAT rate for other member states in 1986 was 1·4 per cent.
Thanks to the Fontainebleau agreement, the effective VAT rate in 1986 for the United Kingdom was 0·67 per cent. That means that with the Fontainebleau rebate and even with the 1·4 per cent. maximum VAT rate, we actually pay less than we did under the old 1 per cent. VAT rate without the Fontainebleau agreement. That must be beneficial for Britain. As I have said, we know that there is pressure in the Community to raise that 1·4 per cent. ceiling. That step would require the unanimous consent of all national Governments and all Parliaments in the Community.
We know that the President of the Commission is visiting capitals and will come here to present his ideas on the future financing of the Community, the reform of the CAP and the reorganisation of the structural funds. I have made it clear in this and in other debates that through our receipts and the Fontainebleau abatement we now get back five sixths of what we contribute to the Community. I agree that we are still net contributors. Germany contributes most and France contributes a bit less than we do. For us, like France and Germany if extra money was spent in the Community, that: would mean less money available to be spent in this country. That is why the Community policies have to give an added value. We should judge the Commission's proposals for financial reform against that yardstick.
We are not considering the issue of when there should be an increase in the own-resources ceiling or what size that should be. We will be considering how excess expenditure on agriculture can be restrained and how control of public expenditure in the Community can be assured.
The entire focus of this year's negotiations — this point was repeated in many of the remarks tonight—must be to deal with the underlying problems of the Community, with CAP expenditure at the top of the agenda. That is not to say that I disregard the remarks about structural funds. I will consider those in a moment.
I remind the House that, during the British presidency, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Agriculture,

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Fisheries and Food succeeded in getting the largest measure of CAP reform—a 9·5 per cent. reduction in milk production over the next 15 months and a 13 per cent. reduction in the price of beef. That is only the beginning. It will not be easy for our dairy producers, but it is absolutely essential if the Community is to control its agricultural surpluses. We shall use the discussions to push through further essential measures of reform on cereals and Mediterranean products.
My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) argued, as he has argued for many years, for the repatriation of the common agricultural policy. That is not a realistic choice for this country—not for the reasons that he gave but because the budgetary costs of a deficiency payments scheme would be higher for us than the costs of the existing CAP. Nor would a system in which Britain tried to compete alone against the collective strength of European and American producers be one in which our agriculture could flourish. Either there would be a free-for-all in which many of our farmers would go to the wall, or we would have to erect protectionist barriers which would push up costs.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: Does the Minister accept the view of the European Union of Consumers, which claims that if we adopted deficiency payments there would be a big saving in that the average family in Britain would have a reduction in household bills of £13 a week? The Minister has not included that in the calculations.
Mrs. Chalker: Indeed, we have taken that into the calculation. I know that my hon. Friend is as keen as I am to solve the problems of agriculture. These problems are not confined to Europe alone; they are technical and worldwide problems. We will not change the position by turning the clock back. We must solve the problems from within the Community and between the Community and the other producers. We have successfully begun to do that. In the Uruguay round of GATT, for the first time, we are including agricultural produce in an attempt to rectify the world problem that is not simply limited to Europe.
I must stress to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East that real savings will be made through the CAP reform measures because the decisions taken in December will produce real savings. It is not simply a matter of delaying payments, as my hon. Friend seems to believe. The savings arise from the lower levels of support and that will mean real cuts in surpluses in future. That is why, taking into account all aspects of the package, including the costs of the butter stock disposal scheme, at the end of the day the Community will save about I billion ecu a year—£745 million—from 1990 onwards. Until then, the total net savings are estimated to be about £1·3 billion.
Delaying repayments to member states from the disposing of butter stocks simply means that the cost does not fall all at once but is phased over a number of years. That is the position and it is more manageable for the Community and individual states' budgets. I have said all along with regard to agriculture that it is all very well to empty the tank in that way, but that can make sense only if the tap has been turned off. In December, we agreed to turn the taps off and to run down the level of the water.
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I assure my hon. Friend that the reforms which were negotiated last December involve production cuts which will affect everybody elses producers as well as ours. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) said, those production cuts must be managed rationally. I am sure that my hon. Friend would not advocate steps that would go against the interests of our farmers.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) spoke of the distribution of food surpluses to the needy. It makes sense to give excess produce to the needy, and that is being done, as my right hon. Friend the Minister has said, through various organisations with whom he has had discussions and explained the methods to be used. The meetings show the willingness of organisations to give out food to the most needy. I understand that, since last week, butter and beef stocks have been distributed and that further stocks will go out during the next few months. If the hon. Gentleman wants further details, the Ministry will supply them.
The scheme is not a long-term answer to CAP surpluses but a response in extreme weather conditions, and it has been welcomed by all involved.
I said earlier that, this morning, we achieved agreement ad referendum between the European Commission and the United States about the trade effects of enlargement. The agreement has yet to be confirmed formally, but I hope that it soon will be. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East suggested that the cost of the deal between the EC and the United States was $400 million. That is not correct. He has confused the budgetary costs with the trade volumes which were under negotiation.
The United States claims that it would lose $400 million-worth of grain exports to Spain as a result of the latter's accession, which involves adopting a system of variable levies on all agricultural imports, including those from the United States. There was never any question of the EC paying $400 million.
I can estimate immediately the direct cost to the United Kingdom which would have occurred in the event of a trade war. It would have been a loss of $80 million in gin exports.
In the agreement there is no cash transfer. The deal provides United States grain exporters with reduced-levy — not levy-free $ access for the bulk of a quota of 2 million tonnes of corn, 300,000 tonnes of sorghum and increased access to the Portuguese market. That will mean a slight reduction in levy income to EC budgets, but no figure can be given at the moment because the amounts must be set out when the individual tenders are opened in the light of market circumstances. The lesser tariff concessions will also cause a slight reduction in customs duties income, but my hon. Friend will receive the figures when they are known.
I understand why a large part of the debate has concerned the structural funds and I understand what hon. Members have said. I should like to put the House right on one matter concerning shipbuilding, a subject in which I also get involved. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East said about the sixth directive on aids to shipbuilding, it is a considerable improvement on previous arrangements. The ceiling refers to 28 per cent. of the cost, which is equivalent to 39 per cent. of the contract price. That compares favourably with limits in the fifth directive of 22·5 per cent. of contract price or 18·5 per cent. of costs.
Mr. Gordon Brown rose—
Mrs. Chalker: I am sorry, but I have only two minutes.
The structural funds benefit us. We have received £2·25 billion from the social fund, which is more than any other member state except Italy. We have sought to maximise our receipts from the fund. We have also received £2·25 billion from the European regional develoment fund since 1975, and the north of England has received more assistance than any other area.
We have achieved a great deal of what we set out to do in the last six months of last year. It is hard to put a price on peace and democracy in western Europe, but the Community helps to maintain it. We are a net contributor, but we shall ensure that we continue to pay no more than our fair share into the Community.
I commend the motion to the House, because the European Community could help to maximise our benefits and our influence, and protect our trade interests. I hope that the House will unite behind the achievements that have been made.
Question put and agreed to
Resolved,
That this House takes note of the White Paper on Developments in the European Community, January to June 1986 (Cmnd. 9911); and supports the emphasis which the Government placed during the United Kingdom Presidency on developing Community policies of practical benefit to industry, business and the consumer.

European Community
  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.

    PUBLIC HEALTH
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.,
    That the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (No. 10) Order 1986 (S.I., 1986, No. 2248), dated 17th December 1986, a copy of which was laid before this House on 18th December be approved.—[Mr. Portillo.]
    Question agreed to.

Cwrt-y-Gollen Camp, Crickhowell
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn—[Mr. Portillo.]
10.1 pm
Mr. Richard Livsey: I am glad Mr. Speaker, that you have given me the opportunity of raising the subject of the future of the Cwrt-y-Gollen camp, Crickhowell, in this Adjournment debate. I tried to raise the subject earlier this month when the House debated the Army, but on that occasion I was not lucky enough to catch your eye. I welcome the presence of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces to answer the points that I raise.
I am anxious to raise the subject because of the severe decline that has occurred in the fortunes of the camp over the past 10 years or so. The camp was purpose-built about 25 years ago to house a depot for some of the Welsh regiments of the British Army, notably what was then the South Wales Borderers and the Welsh Regiment. The site of the camp is one of the finest in the whole of Britain. Through a series of amalgamations of the regiments that I have mentioned, the Royal Regiment of Wales emerged. Although that regiment is young, it has inherited an excellent tradition, backed by the splendid qualities of Welsh soldiers.
The South Wales Borderers held more VCs than any other regiment in the British Army. One of the regiment's greatest exploits was shown in the film "Zulu", when it bravely defended Rorke's Drift and won no fewer than six VCs on that occasion. Indeed, in days past, this area of Wales produced the finest archers in the land, who brought victory for Henry V on the field of Agincourt. Such traditions must not be cast aside lightly in the interests of parsimonous economy and Government policy. The Army has stood by bemused and has been forced to accede to a plethora of policy changes.
Sir John Stradling Thomas: I know that the hon. Gentleman would not like to mislead the House. He has heard of the Monmouth camp, and I advise him that the archers of Agincourt came from my constituency.
Mr. Livsey: I agree that the archers came from our part of Wales—that covers both constituencies. I think that I pay due respect to the hon. Member for Monmouth (Sir J. Stradling Thomas) on that point.
During the Brecon and Radnor byelection campaign of 1985 the then Secretary of State for Defence acted when there were persistent rumours that the camp was to close. In June 1985 he announced that Cwrt-y-Gollen camp would remain open, but that troops would no longer be stationed there permanently, and in the future Territorial Army units would train there. In the space of 25 years the camp has gone from being the proud depot for the Royal Regiment of Wales to a training camp for junior regiments, and finally to a staging post for intermittent TA training. Cwrt-y-Gollen now exists as a camp, but only just. However, over the years there has been substantial investment in it. There are excellent accommodation facilities, officers' and sergeants' messes, a cookhouse, parade grounds, a church and a large number of married quarters. I hope that the Minister will take the time to visit this excellent camp.
In spite of the promises made in June 1985 about local employment being maintained, civilian employment has

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declined from around 60 people in 1985 to 15 now. Most left in November 1986, when the junior regiment sadly departed from the camp. Lecturers have been transferred, catering has been privatised and even, surprisingly, the eight security men have been made redundant. As a result, the camp is extremely vulnerable and I regret to report that some equipment has already gone missing. I make the general point that in the camp in my constituency there is a great lack of confidence in the Government's policy of privatising the civilian services that support our troops. They often work late into the night and in the early morning when they come off the ranges. All that remains at Cwrt-y-Gollen camp are 15 clerks to keep the administration going. In the name of what has there been all this decline? Is it some Treasury saving, or something else?
The other factor that weighs heavily is the loss of between 40 and 50 permanent Army staff. Add those to the 40-plus civilian places that have been lost, and that knocks a considerable hole in the local economy.
One of the most bizarre aspects of the recent reorganisation in the camp is that the junior regiment has been transferred to Shorncliffe, Folkestone, but for adventure training these young soldiers return weekly to Cwrt-y-Gollen, a round trip of 400 miles. Does the Minister feel that this is a more cost-effective exercise than the previous arrangements, when the soldiers lived at the camp?
At present, the three camps in my constituency, Cwrt-y-Gollen, Dering Lines in Brecon, and Sennybridge are all engaged in training the Territorial Army and soldiers from all over Britain and NATO. The Sennybridge training area completes over 800,000 man training days a year, but we have no troop numbers of any significance stationed permanently in the area. We have many of the disadvantages of being associated with the armed forces, but we have few of the advantages, in that we have few permanently settled among us.
The Brecon and Radnor unemployment rate is 2 per cent. above the national average. But only 1·3 per cent. of the British Army in the United Kingdom is stationed permanently in Wales, with about 1,100 soldiers. We must compare this with the 62 per cent. of troops stationed permanently in southern England. Many include well-known regiments and total 54,000 soldiers. The south has a significantly better rate of employment and a higher standard of living. The transfer of troops to Wales is one way in which the Government can painlessly switch resources to a less wealthy area.
Recruitment in Wales is better than in any part of England. We recruit 6·5 per cent. of the Army total, but we have 5 per cent. of the United Kingdom population. I am sure that when the Minister analyses this against the number of troops permanently stationed in Wales he will agree that Wales is not getting a fair deal.
Will the Minister consider the following points about the future of Cwrt-y-Gollen camp? The Royal Regiment of Wales has in the recent past been active in Germany and Northern Ireland, and has given a good account of itself in those places. However, when it returned to the United Kingdom it was stationed in Wiltshire. This is regrettable, because the Cwrt-y-Gollen camp is only 30 miles from the Severn bridge. It is not way out somewhere in the far away
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hills. Its good Welsh name does not mean that it is an obscure place. It is alongside the A40, which runs from London to Fishguard. It is extremely accessible.
It would have been far better if the Royal Regiment had come home to Wales, where many of the soldiers hae their families and where many of them originated. Many of them were raised in the valleys of the south of Wales, and in the west and north-west. The Scots regiments remain stationed in Scotland. Why cannot the Royal Regiment of Wales be stationed in Wales?
I remember that when I was working in Scotland the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were about to be disbanded. A tremendous fuss was made in the area where I was living at the time that the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders should continue to exist and be stationed at Stirling. I thought that that was very laudable. Mad Mitch, the famous major of Aden, campaigned extremely hard because he was an Argyll officer. That campaign was extremely successful, and I believe that in retrospect it has proved to be a very good decision.
I understand that it may not be possible to station the regiment in Wales all the time. I accept that regiments move around from time to time to do duties overseas. Will the Minister accept that a depot and headquarters could be established at Cwrt-y-Gollen, and perhaps the other battalions of the Prince of Wales Division could be stationed at the camp from time to time. If the Royal Regiment of Wales was stationed in Wales it would give a tremendous boost to the morale of the regiment. It would also give a tremendous boost to recruitment in the regiment throughout the length and breadth of Wales.
May I suggest, rather sadly, that the good record of recruitment in Wales is, unfortunately, a reflection of the high levels of unemployment that we have throughout our country. There is a human resource which is underutilised, and rather than idling its time away doing destructive things it could do many constructive things by joining the Army.
I do not speak about this subject idly, because I was a National Service officer. It is my strong belief that it is these local loyalties, brought about by raising regiments in areas of Britain, which give the British Army its fundamental strength. The local community in my constituency would welcome the increased employment opportunities that a permanent Army presence would provide. At the very least, the junior regiment and its bandsmen should return to Port Cwrt-y-Gollen.
The camp may require some investment to bring it up to standard — I do not underestimate that — but it is already in very good condition. It has the infrastructure, and investment there would be far more cost-effective than building a new camp elsewhere. Proposals have been discussed from time to time about building a new camp elsewhere in the British Isles. Other aspects of the defence budget may be preventing the development of camps such as Cwrt-y-Gollen. The investment being made in Trident at the present time may be having a kickback into Army expenditure. Therefore, I ask the Minister to give me an assurance that the camp will definitely remain open. I trust that it is not beig deliberately run down as a prelude to closure.
Will the Minister agree to more Welsh troops being based in Wales? It would be an effective policy for both the Army and the country. I promise that they will be made welcome. The future for Cwrt-y-Gollen camp and Crickhowell will then be assured.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Roger Freeman): I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livsey) on bringing to the attention of the House this important subject. He has introduced the subject with great eloquence and in a comprehensive fashion; particularly so because he served as a National Service officer, and I listened with great care and interest to what he said.
By drawing our attention to the history of Cwrt-y-Gollen camp at Crickhowell and the questions which he has posed to me—which I will seek to answer in the time left for the debate—the hon. Gentleman has done a great service to the House. The long-standing, honourable and important contribution that Welsh soldiers have made to the British Army should be recognised, as indeed it always has been, and emphasised again tonight. We are rightly proud of our Welsh Regiments, the Welsh Guards, and, indeed, the larger number of Welsh recruits to all arms and corps who have served us so well over the years. I confirm the recruitment figures that the hon. Gentleman gave. The British army has a long history of successful recruitment in Wales.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the importance of the local connection for the regimental system and expressed his hope that the Cwrt-y-Gollen camp at Crickhowell might have its potential more fully exploited as the home base for a Welsh regiment.
The local connection is indeed the cornerstone of our regimental tradition which draws upon regional kinships and strengths and the Army encourages that in many ways from school liaison visits, regimental associations and the Territorial Army, to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
However, I must stress that Army regiments are not necessarily based in the geographic areas from which they are recruited. There is no necessary link. Operational considerations must come first, although we try to take integration with the local community into account as far as possible amongst the factors being considered when redeployment is looked at. The siting of Army units is a complex mix of historical associations, convenience to allied units, major centres, training areas and relationship with operational roles.
I am sure that the House will find it useful if I spend a moment explaining the Army's present use of Cwrt-y-Gollen camp. The Armed Forces are constantly examining the cost-effectiveness of their operations and accommodation to achieve the maximum value for money and the greatest operational impact. Hon. Members will be well aware of the numerous reviews and cost-saving initiatives that the services have launched in recent years.
Amongst those was a study into the army's training organisation by Major-General Groom in 1982–83. That study showed conclusively that the Army was spread over too many regional recruit training depots, a number of which were too small to be cost-effective or needed uneconomical amounts of building work and costly maintenance. Groom also proposed intensifying junior training which would significantly reduce bed space requirements.
Following the Groom study, there was and still is a reorganisation of the Army's individual training organisation. Its first impact was to reduce the number of recruit training depots to achieve economies of scale and better combined facilities. Inevitably, a number of smaller regimental depots could not be sustained economically.
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Although Cwrt-y-Gollen was an efficient training depot, its throughput was limited, its overheads were unavoidably high and it was the most expensive of all the Army's recruit training depots to run per trainee. In addition, at the time of the review, major building, maintenance and development work in the order of £7 million was considered necessary to maintain the depot's viability. In 1984 it was decided, as the hon. Gentleman knows, that Cwrt-y-Gollen must be one of the smaller recruit training depots which should close in the interests of economy.
Hon. Members will doubtless recall that that decision was subject to the fullest debate in the House at that time. Adult recruits to Welsh infantry regiments now go to Bassingbourn for their initial training and, as the hon. Gentleman said, juniors go to Shorncliffe. The hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that some of the juniors at Shorncliffe go back to the depot and I think that he implied that that was a round trip of some 400 miles. He questioned the logic of that. I can tell him that some but not all of those undergoing junior training do go back to the depot, and indeed other depots in Wales, but I stress that it is not all of them. The costs of such travel were taken into account in the costings for the reorganisation of junior training, so that movement does not come as a surprise to us. It had been taken into account in the financial appraisal.
In 1985 a study was undertaken to consider the: economics of retaining the Cwrt-y-Gollen camp for alternative military use. Full account was taken of local representations and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales took a personal keen interest. My right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) the former Secretary of State for Defence, was well aware of the local impact of the decision to withdraw junior training and its effect upon the area.
The study suggested that the camp had a viable military future primarily as a Territorial Army training base and to house a Territorial Army hospital. The then Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley, approved its retention for this role. I can give the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor the assurance that he is seeking: the camp has a future.
The camp also houses the Royal Regiment of Wales and the Royal Welch Fusiliers information teams, the families' housing, its welfare service offices for Wales and a detachment of the junior infantry external leadership training wing as well as a number of Territorial Army and cadet units.
In addition, the camp has basic living accommodation for up to 512 all ranks and is capable of being used as a training base all year round. This revived military utilisation of the camp makes the most efficient use of the camp without the need for expensive building work. Although the camp has been operating in this capacity for only a few weeks, it is already heavily over subscribed and we are having to turn units away. Such is its popularity that we estimate that it will be used for 80,000 man training days in 1987. The reorganisation has necessitated the closing of the smaller troop training camp, the Vauxhall at Monmouth.
I recognise that the Army primarily uses Wales for its splendid training areas and that none of the Welsh regiments has a home base in Wales. The local association with regiments and their recruiting areas is very important and adhered to as much as possible throughout the United

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Kingdom, without the necessity for regiments to be necessarily stationed in their home areas. Indeed, the deployment pattern involved with operational tours would make this practically impossible. In any case, even if it were operationally and economically viable for the Welsh regiments to have a home base in Wales, the Army's plot of operational and emergency tours, home and overseas, would make it very unlikely that a native regiment would often be in its home base.
Sir John Stradling Thomas: I do not go all the way with the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livesey) on a number of issues and especially the idea that unemployment has contributed to recruitment in Wales. I believe that the Welsh, Scottish, English and Irish soldiers are superb.
The closure of the training camp at Vauxhall worries me, as does the semi-closure of Cwrt-y-Gollen. That camp is right on the fringe of my constituency and we need an army presence in Wales and Monmouthshire. Will my hon. Friend ask the Ministry of Defence and the Property Services Agency to get on with it and decide what will happen to the Vauxhall camp? We have all paid lip service to the Territorial Army. One of the last militia regiments of the British Army is based in Monmouth. I referred earlier to the Monmouth archers. We throw away the Territorial Army—the old voluntary spirit—as well as the regular soldiers at our peril for the future defence of our country. If Major-General Groom had been working for me and I had been his commanding officer he would not have lasted five minutes.
Mr. Freeman: I can assure my hon. Friend that the camp at Cwrt-y-Gollen does have a viable use and we have every intention of using it to the full. I can also assure him that the recent reference by the Ministry of Defence to the PSA concerning the disposal of the land at Vauxhall camp will be prosecuted with all deliberate speed. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall write to the PSA and ask for a status report on the disposal of the land and I shall write to him with a progress report.
As I have said, the factors affecting operational deployment and accommodation are complex and constrained by existing dispositions of facilities. The Army has been reviewing its estate in an attempt to redeploy to more economical areas and to take account of growing social pressures. There are many vital calls on the defence budget and operatonal capability must take precedence over social redeployment or the interests of local economies. Cwrt-y-Gollen camp is unsuitable to take an infantry battalion and does not have the necessary barrack and married quarter infrastructure. It costs up to £25 million to rebuild a barracks to today's standards and up to £10 million for the necessary married quarters.
Mr. Livsey: Are there any plans to build a new camp for the Army elsewhere? If so, the Minister's deliberations should take account of the fact that there has already been considerable investment in Cwrt-y-Gollen and there is room for expansion, although I accept that it could be an expensive operation. We have troops in many countries, many of whom may be coming back more often than in the past and will need more accommodation. The Minister should consider Cwrt-y-Gollen as a possible expansion point.
Mr. Freeman: I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that as and when the Army needs new building or modernisation of existing buildings to house units that may be coming back permanently to the United Kingdom, whenever there is a requirement for new building, Wales and the northern parts of England and Scotland will be given serious consideration. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley gave that assurance when he was Secretary of State, and I repeat it today. Much more detailed study on operational logistic, economic and social factors would be needed before moving any regimental base. At present, I can only repeat that the Army has no plans or funds for such a move to Cwrt-y-Gollen, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept the wider assurance that I have given.
I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that the armed forces have, none the less, retained a significant presence in south Wales. The Brecon training area, Castlemartin and Sennybridge ranges, are heavily used and the Army apprentice college is nearby at Chepstow. As a Minister responsible for all three services, I cannot confine this discussion simply to the Army. The Royal Air Force, of course, has very large units at St. Athan, Brawdy, and Sealand. The Army still employs 115 officers and more than 900 soldiers and 900 civilians in Wales. The Royal Air Force employs 4,850 military and 2,650 civilians and the Navy somewhat fewer. I appreciate that those numbers have fallen, in line with reducing numbers across the defence services and the Government's drive for greater efficiency in support services. None the less, the armed forces retain a considerable and proud presence in Wales and will continue to do so.
Although we have no immediate plans to move any major Army units into Wales, we would, of course, consider all locations—including locations in Wales—in any future redeployment of military units. I recognise and fully appreciate the close association between Wales and the Welsh people and the British Army. I am also mindful of the excellent training facilities that we enjoy in Wales.
In conclusion, I gladly take up the hon. Gentleman's suggestion of a visit to Wales. I have every intention of visiting not only Cwrt-y-Gollen but Sennybridge and Brecon itself.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.

Prisoner's Parole: Judge's Comments
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have studied the comments of Judge Norwood at Isleworth Crown Court in sentencing Joseph Hanson for offences which he committed after release from prison on weekend leave which he had been granted notwithstanding his having absconded when released on parole in 1985: why he was released on weekend leave: and who was responsible for the decision to release him on this occasion.
The Minister of State, Home Office (The Earl of Caithness): My Lords, we are aware of Judge Norwood's comments when sentencing Mr. Joseph Hanson for offences committed when he was unlawfully at large, having failed to return from home leave. Taking into account all relevant factors, the governor of the prison in which Mr. Hanson was serving his sentence decided, on the advice of the Home Leave Board, to grant Mr. Hanson two days' leave to help maintain his ties with his family and prepare him for his eventual release.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, does my noble friend not find it a little odd, as the learned judge who tried the case found, that a man should be released from prison within a year of his having absconded from a previous grant of parole? Is he aware of the fact that the decision to release him resulted in the commission of further offences; considerable wrongs being done to several members of the public; and very considerable police effort? Is it not curious that the previous absconding should be completely ignored in a decision to release the prisoner on this occasion?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that certainly on this occasion, as on all the other occasions, such previous behaviour of the prisoner is not ignored when it comes to the consideration for home leave or parole. All these matters were before the Home Leave Board. But, in view of Mr. Hanson's exemplary behaviour in an open prison, the decision was taken to let him go for home leave. We must all realise that it is a case where balance has to be struck between the risk and the benefit; namely, the risk to the public of failure, and the benefits to the prisoner of maintaining his family ties and easing his progress towards his eventual release.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, does not concentration upon the exceptional case which is bound to arise—of which the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, is so fond—leave one with a misunderstanding of the advantages of the short home leave and the terminal home leave? Are they not very necessary for any hope of civilised resettlement for prisoners? Are we not behind many other countries, including the United States, Sweden, Denmark—and I could go on—in our generosity in this discretionary right?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord on the point that he makes with regard to my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter. It is very important that these matters are brought to our attention in order to make sure that the policy we have is right, and from whichever side of the House such comment comes it provides a very good check on the situation. For that reason, I support the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, in saying that the present policy is the right one.
Lord Renton: My Lords, can my noble friend say how rarely or how frequently these cases do go wrong?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, we do not collect figures as a matter of routine; but I can tell my noble friend that figures that have been collected show that 4,400 prisoners were granted home leave in 1985–86 and only 203 prisoners failed to return in time.
Lord Elton: My Lords, will my noble friend accept that we regard him as absolutely right to welcome scrutiny of these cases? Will he also bear in mind that we are talking about offences committed on leave in preparation for final release, and that final release can be an equal opportunity for the commission of such offences? For the offence to be committed in an experimental period is a greater protection to the public than if the prisoner is finally at large.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, my noble friend has tremendous experience of these matters; and, of course, he is absolutely right.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that first, this prisoner was in an open prison; secondly that there was no record of violent offences as far as he was concerned, and thirdly that home leave is an absolutely critical factor in the preparation for an offender to return to the community? Is the Minister aware that these are difficult questions of judgment which rightly should be left to the governor of each individual establishment.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, if I may say so: yes, yes, yes and yes.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister agree that judicial comment on the circumstances of release can at times work very great mischief?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, it is not for me to comment on what anybody may say about this. We have justified the policy and the policy must be continued.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, is any administrative system not improved by the knowledge that if errors are made, as they were in this case, they will have attention drawn to them? Is it not a fact that this particular man was not due for final release until spring 1988? So, it was somewhat premature to regard this release, on which he committed these offences against two innocent girls, as having anything to do with preparation for final release.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I disagree with my noble friend that errors were made. With hindisight one can differ with the opinion; but I do not believe that that justifies the contention that an error was made. As a result of the control review committee of 1984 we changed our policy on 1st April, 1986, to try and encourage improvement in the terms for a short home leave at four-monthly intervals. I think, as I proved to my noble friend Lord Renton on an earlier answer, that this has in the great majority of cases been of enormous benefit.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, does the Minister agree that examination of the factors involved in determining the eligibility for home leave is extremely complex? It is not a scientific matter amenable to mathematical calculation. Therefore, is it not quite wrong of the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, to describe as an error a process of careful judgment by the authorities concerned which occasionally leads to a prisoner absconding?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I agree that all factors have to be taken into account. As I said earlier, it is a decision between the risk and the benefit.

Coolscar Quarry
3.14 p.m.
Lord Hunt: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the present position in regard to the extraction of limestone by Eskett Quarries Limited from Coolscar Quarry in the Yorkshire Dales National Park.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Skelmersdale): My Lords, before issuing a decision in this case my right honourable friend requires the parties to conclude an agreement dealing with certain off-site matters. Since my right honourable friend announced this as long ago as 22nd May he has now written to the parties informing them that, unless an agreement sealed by all the parties is sent to him by midday on 27th February, then a decision will be issued on that day which takes account of the fact that the matter which it was proposed to deal with by means of an agreement has not been so dealt with.
Lord Hunt: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Will he accept that I am glad to learn that this protracted affair is within sight of being resolved? Will he in advance accept my apologies for not feeling able to be quite as co-operative and friendly as I was
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during an exchange yesterday, and I ask him whether he recalls that I have twice previously raised this matter in your Lordships' House, on 28th November 1985 and on 8th April 1986? Is it not serious that two years on from the cessation of permission to a quarrying company to mine limestone in a national park that that company should have continued to do so to the great detriment of the purposes of the national park? Finally, are there not lessons to be learnt from this deplorable affair to prevent future flouting of planning regulations?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am well aware of the interest of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in this matter, which, as he said, has surfaced on two previous occasions in parliamentary Questions. I accept straightaway that it has dragged on far too long, which is why my right honourable friend, through my mouth as it were, has made the announcement that he has today. I suspect that there are lessons to be learnt from this. When we have concluded this we shall be able to make an analysis of what lessons are to be drawn and what action we can take in the future.
Baroness David: My Lords, as the Minister agrees that this has dragged on far too long and far too much limestone has been quarried in that time, will he instruct his department to impose an output limitation of 175,000 tonnes a year, which was the figure given in the decision letter by the department in May last year, so that at any rate there is some control at the moment until the agreement is signed by both parties?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I did not say that far too much limestone had been quarried. I was careful not to say that. What I said—and the noble Baroness is quite right—was that this matter has dragged on far too long. Yes, the decision that my right honourable friend is minded to make is indeed for 175,000 tonnes a year. But, as I said, he will make up his mind when he finally makes the decision on 27th February.
Baroness Lockwood: My Lords, in view of the apparently special nature of the limestone being quarried in this area, which makes the area one of particular interest and beauty, can the Minister tell us what steps are being taken to try to establish the extent of the reserves of pure limestone and whether research is being undertaken into possible substitutes?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, it has been suggested that a working party on chemically pure limestone should be set up, and this matter remains under consideration. We need to know the extent of high purity, high quality limestone in this country, but I rather suspect that by the nature of things this is likely to be in areas which will give rise to the same sort of public concern that this one has; in other words, high landscape value areas.
Lord Ironside: My Lords, can my noble friend say, in view of the fact that limestone is an important feedstock for the flue gas desulphurisation plants which are going to be built in this country in the future, whether this quarry has a significant part to play in the supply of limestone to the CEGB?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, not to the best of my knowledge, but high quality, or chemically pure, limestone is comparatively scarce and is important in the manufacture of chemicals, pharmaceuticals and magnesia refractories. For most of those applications the limestone must be at least 98.5 per cent. calcium carbonate and have a very low concentration of impurities such as iron and aluminium.
Lord Diamond: My Lords, in view of the Minister's statement that this matter has been going on far too long, can he tell the House whether the letter that his right honourable friend sent with a view to bringing it to an end was sent prior to or after my noble friend Lord Hunt put down his Question?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am answering the Question today and the letter was sent today, as I have already said.
Baroness David: My Lords, when will the results of the inquiry into Eldon Hill quarry be announced? That inquiry finished in March last year and I think the House would be reassured to know that there will not be the delay in announcements about that that there has been on Coolscar.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, that is a rather different question. If the noble Baroness would like to put her question to me more formally, I shall be delighted to answer it.

Petrol Sales Promotions
3.20 p.m.
Lord Strathcarron: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Goverment whether they will encourage the oil companies to declare the date on which any particular petrol sales promotion is due to end.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, this is a matter for the oil companies, but I am sure they will be sensitive to any concern my noble friend may have.
Lord Strathcarron: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Does he agree that when motorists have saved up their vouchers for a particular item only to be told that the promotion ended yesterday, they feel they have been unfairly treated? That would not be the case if the completion date was clearly displayed, preferably on the poster itself.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, when marketing petrol the oil companies will no doubt be concerned about their customers' reactions. I am sure they will take into account my noble friend's comments. If he is worried about a particular promotion he may wish to write to the chairman of the oil company concerned.
Lord Mellish: My Lords, is the Minister aware that oil companies' promotions, particularly with regard to sales, are rather extraordinary? When the price of oil
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goes down, it is a long time before petrol prices are reduced. We are told—the Government have told us from the Front Bench—that it is because of the stocks that are at the pumps. But when the price of oil goes up overnight they put up the prices of petrol? What is the reason?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I think the noble Lord should write to the chairman of the company concerned. The Question is about promotions. I understand that the unit cost of petrol sales promotions is generally very small and they seem to be popular with the motorist. But that again is a matter for the commercial judgment of the companies involved.
Lord Paget of Northampton: My Lords, does not the noble Viscount feel it may be more effective if he writes to the companies?
Viscount Davidson: No, my Lords.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many motorists find it a nuisance to have their cars cluttered with vouchers of one sort or another and that they may prefer to have the option of paying a little less for their petrol?
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, if my noble friend would like to meet me outside the Chamber, I shall tell him what to do with his vouchers.

European Commission: Action Against Airlines
3.25 p.m.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action has been taken or is proposed, jointly, by the European Community Transport Ministers and the European Commission arising from replies of the 10 European airlines concerned to the letter sent them by the Commission on 10th July: whether all replies have now been received and whether British Caledonian is the only airline to be removed from the Commission list: and whether they will explain the way in which the Commission and Transport Ministers co-operate in European transport matters.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, the Commission's action against European airlines under Article 89 of the treaty is a matter between it and the airlines concerned. The Commission is acting under powers conferred on it by the treaty. It is not required to act jointly with the Council of Ministers, nor is it doing so. I understand, however, that British Caledonian is the only airline so far to have been removed from the Commission's list following receipt of a reply from the airline which it found satisfactory.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I think the Minister has omitted to answer the last part of my Question. Will he be good enough to do so?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, if the noble Baroness studies the answer I gave she will see that I covered her point about whether the Council of Transport Ministers co-operate in this matter. The Commission is acting under its own autonomous powers conferred by Article 89 of the treaty. This is because the Council has so far failed to adopt an aviation competition regulation under Article 87 of the treaty. Such a regulation forms part of the package of measures now under discussion. When an Article 87 regulation has been adopted the Commission will act in accordance with it and thus under guidelines from the Council. This is the normal procedure in most other areas.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, is the Minister aware that it seems impossible to discover what is going on in this matter of air transport in the Community? The Minister does not know and we Members do not have a chance of asking anybody who seems to be aware of the position. Is he telling the House that there is no co-operation at all between the Commission and the Council of Transport Ministers on matters of mutual concern? Will he please tell me whether all replies have been received from the airlines by the Commission or does he not know?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I have attempted to explain how the Commission and the Transport Council operate together or separately—
Lord Tordoff: Which, my Lords?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, if the noble Lord cares to read the reply I have already given, he will find the answer to that. As regards the answers from the airlines, this, as I have explained, is a matter between the Commission and the airlines. In broad terms I understand that the letters said that aspects of the relative inter-airline agreements were incompatible with Article 85. Most airlines asked for the original two-month deadline to be extended, and the Commission agreed to do this. However, even now a number of airlines have apparently not provided substantive replies.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I shall not say I am sorry to pursue this matter. But does the Minister realise that the best way to get rid of me is to give me a decent answer? Does he appreciate, first, that I really am interested, and I think the House is interested, in this matter? Secondly, does he realise the impossibility of asking him a question because he says he does not know the answer? When we ask him about the Commission he does not know about it because it acts by itself, and when we ask him about the Council of Ministers and joint co-operation he says that there is none at all. Does the House wonder that we get nowhere on this matter of liberalising air transport?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I am well aware of the interest of the noble Baroness in this matter. I have at all stages attempted to give full and complete
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answers to her questions. However, I am not able to stand up here and answer for the Commission. The Commission is acting under its own powers under the treaty. Questions to the Commission can be raised by Members of the European Parliament. That perhaps would be one way, and the noble Baroness may care to arrange for questions to be put in that forum to the Commission. I did not say that the Commission and the Council of Ministers do not co-operate. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State met the Transport Commissioner earlier this week, and I am sure that matters appertaining to air transport competition will have been discussed at that meeting. As I said, the next meeting of the Council of Ministers is in March, and again I am sure that air transport will be on the agenda.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, does the Minister agree that if we had a decent electoral system for the European Parliament, no doubt the noble Baroness would be there herself to ask the questions? That would relieve him of a great problem.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: I think my Lords, that the noble Baroness strays somewhat from the Question on the Order Paper. Under the present electoral system there is no reason why the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, should not be elected.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, the Minister has referred to replies from nine of the 10 airlines. Can he say in which way the British Caledonian reply differed? When the matter was last raised by the noble Baroness on 15th January, he said he would write to her. Can he tell the House in which way the British Caledonian reply differed from the other nine?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the only matter of concern to the Commission as regards British Caledonian was the arrangement on one particular route which it operated jointly with Alitalia. It satisfied the Commission as to the arrangements on that route and therefore it is in the clear, so to speak.
Lord Morris: My Lords, can my noble friend tell me which of the airlines has not replied to the letter sent to them?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: No, my Lords. I have already said that that is a matter for the Commission, but I can assure my noble friend and the House that British Airways is having full and useful discussions with the Commission.

Business
3.28 p.m.
Lord Denham: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that the Committee stage of the Consumer Protection Bill will be adjourned at approximately 7 p.m. for approximately one hour and that during this adjournment the Agriculture Fisheries (Financial Assistance) (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 will be taken.

City of London (Various Powers) Bill
Read a second time, and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.

Gaming (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the order of commitment be discharged.—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Consumer Protection Bill [H.L.]
3.30 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Lucas of Chilworth): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Clause 20 [Offence of giving misleading indication]:
Lord Gallacher Lord Gallacher moved Amendment No. 71:
Page 18, line 9, leave out subsection (4).
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 71, I should like, with the leave of the Committee, to speak also to Amendments Nos. 76 and 81. This amendment is the first amendment to Part III of the Bill which, as your Lordships will see, is concerned with misleading prices. In particular, it is directed at the status of the code of conduct, which is a very important part of the machinery being created under the Bill by way of regulating misleading prices and conduct generally by retailers.
Before moving on to the actual details of the amendment, I should like to seek information from the Government when the Minister comes to reply to the amendment about the state of play regarding some discussions which I believe have been taking place between representatives of national bodies covering consumers, retailers and the enforcement authorities. This point was raised on Second Reading because at that time speeches from various parts of your Lordships' Chamber expressed concern about the workability of the third draft of the code of conduct, the general view during Second Reading being that, as then drafted, the code was unworkable, unenforceable and therefore not likely to achieve the purposes which the Government had in mind for it.
I understand that these talks on a tripartite basis reached fairly speedy conclusions of a unanimous character which, in my limited experience of dealing
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with the three bodies in question, is in itself unique. When I was actively engaged in this kind of discussion between consumers, retailers and enforcement authorities we were all very gratified if we managed to achieve a "live and let live" basis of understanding. Apparently on this occasion such is the concern about the defects in the draft code of conduct that the parties in question have reached an understanding and, as I am informed, have communicated the outcome of that understanding to the Minister for his approval and, it is hoped for an amendment to be made to the code of conduct. That, I think, would meet the wishes certainly of a number of Members on all sides of the Committee.
With permission, I shall read the basis of the understanding to the Committee. It is that there should be a tripartite arrangement so far as concerns this section of the Bill. First of all, primary legislation should introduce a general prohibition on misleading price indications and include some general indication of the meaning of "misleading" as in Part III. The primary legislation should also establish the status of any code or codes introduced under its provisions. Regulations should be made under Section 26 of the Bill to introduce a few specific requirements to control actual abuses on the following issues: the 28-day-old; recommended retail prices; introductory offers; worth and value claims; and substantiation of price claims. Lastly, any code of practice introduced into the primary legislation should be of practical guidance, as stated in Clause 25(1)(a) of the Bill, and should be of evidential weight for both prosecution and defence in any legal proceedings. Compliance with the code should not constitute an absolute defence; nor should failure to comply with the code constitute a no offence.
Those three heads of agreement, so far as we are concerned, constitute a very practical, businesslike and acceptable basis for amending the code of conduct. It would be helpful to the Committee if, when the Minister replies, he can give some indication of the response which his Ministry is likely to make to what I say is a unique tripartite agreement on behalf of the three bodies most directly concerned with this particular matter.
We must however for the purposes of this amendment proceed on the assumption that the Government want the code as it is, and as it is we find it not particularly acceptable because we go along with the criticism that however much effort has been expended upon it, leading to this third draft, it still contains a mix of regulation and advice which is, first, unsatisfactory as a mix and, secondly, is likely to be unenforceable in the courts. Furthermore, the proposition that compliance with the code should constitute an absolute defence whereas non-compliance would not necessarily result in an acquittal seems to us to be a rather unusual basis for any document of this kind and is a further reason for querying the validity of the code and its likely effectiveness if and when it becomes part of the Bill.
One should have some sympathy with magistrates' courts, who may be called upon to operate the code as it stands. It is very likely that the high degree of certainty which compliance will give as a defence to traders will distract from the general prohibition, and

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it will be coupled with the proposition that if noncompliance is not likely to be acceptable as a defence then enforcement officers are probably not going to bring many cases before the courts under the code because the prospect of proving to magistrates' satisfaction that the code is an effective document is a remote one. Trading standards officers, who are very busy people with a whole range of duties to perform, are likely to feel that it is not worth their bringing many cases under this document because if they were to do that the courts would be faced with an impossible enforcement problem. Such an event would not enhance the reputation of the enforcing authority before the court.
In addition, I can see, without ever having been a lay magistrate, that confronted with this document as the basis of a prosecution one would have to place a very great deal of reliance upon guidance given to the magistrates presumably by the clerk of the court; and at the end of the day even the magistrates are likely to feel that they are being tested needlessly by a piece of legislation which should never have seen the light of day and which therefore is not one which would commend itself to the magistrates as being helpful to the consumer.
If the Government really want to proceed with the code, we feel that its status should be altered and it should cease to have the clout it is proposed to give it under the Bill as it stands; the document should become an evidential document like the Highway Code and in fact it should tend to guide the court either as to compliance or non-compliance but should not of itself constitute the basis of a conviction or a finding of not guilty.
Therefore in these circumstances we are proposing in Amendments Nos. 71, 76 and 81 to change the basis of the code to one of evidential only, and in that way I hope we would seek to make the code more acceptable to those who will be affected by it. However, as I say, the basic weakness remains, as I tried to outline at the beginning of this proposition, and I hope that when the Minister comes to reply to these amendments he will give this side of the Committee and also other Members some assurance that, if we are prepared to wait until the Report stage, then maybe there will be the prospect of something from the Government based on the approaches made to them by consumers, retailers and the enforcement authorities, which will be to everyone's advantage. I beg to move.
3.45 p.m.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: As the amendments selected deal with Clauses 20, 24 and 25, I should like to separate my brief remarks into two sections, the first dealing with Clause 20 on misleading prices indication and the second with Clause 25, to which the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, has just been speaking, on the status of the code of practice.
As regards Clause 20, I paid tribute at Second Reading to the Department of Trade and Industry's summary declaring that Part III of the Bill has as its centre a general offence which is,
"The offence of giving to consumers a misleading price indication about any goods, services, accommodation or facilities"
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but saying that we should want to look carefully at the actual status of the code of practice. This is what we are now moving towards.
As the Committee is aware, under Clause 20 the present legislation will be replaced by a new general prohibition on false and misleading price information backed up by an approved code of practice, which would provide the necessary guidance on ways of complying with the new law. There is general agreement that the control of misleading price claims is a difficult area on which to legislate, since the "misleadingness"—the word used by the Consumers' Association—of a price claim depends upon the impact on people's understanding, which is not always easy to assess.
I wonder whether the Government would pay particular attention to a point which was made by the Consumers' Association, I think by the National Consumer Council and certainly by myself. We all believe that one of the reasons why the current Bargain Offers Order has failed to provide an adequate system of control against misleading pricing—the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, was also, I think, referring to this—is that it ties the courts to examining the technical detail of the order instead of allowing them to make a judgment on whether the alleged misleading price claim is indeed misleading. I should welcome the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, or the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate on this narrow aspect, which I think is basic to the adequate system that we want.
Having said that, I should like to add that I believe that the Government's main proposals will allow more effective control over misleading price claims and I welcome the extension of the law to cover pricing on accommodation and services. If the proposals succeed, they will go a long way to removing the feeling among most consumer organisations that the law as it now stands is unclear, inflexible, difficult to understand and provides inadequate protection.
Looking back over the years, as doubtless other noble Lords have done, I come across many examples of damage to consumers caused by misleading prices. On the other hand, I believe that price comparisons are of value to consumers provided that control is adequate. In any trade, industry or profession, there is an unscrupulous minority bringing wholly reputable members into disrepute. The noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, on Second Reading, recalled the late 1970s—when he was chairman of the Price Commission—and the problem of price indication of bargain offers etc. My mind went back to the notorious Bargain Offers Order in 1968. That was, of course, a disaster. How well I remember saying that one could drive a coach and horses through Section 11 of the Trade Descriptions Act and how unpopular I was with the government of the day for saying it.
A few moments ago, I said that consumer organisations felt the present law to be unclear. The National Consumer Council emphasised this point in saying that the Government proposals go a long way towards explaining to traders what is lawful behaviour but create much uncertainty as to what is not. The council wishes to be clear about the 28-day rule which it thinks should be addressed to the primary

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legislation. The present law states that the higher price must have been offered for 28 days. To remove this as a clear rule would be a retrograde and confusing step, and we all await the Minister's reply.
Moving on to my other section, many Members of the Committee have a long-standing interest in codes of practice. I looked up my files. I noted that in June 1984, I was pursuing the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, on trading codes of practice and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, himself in July last year. As the Committee will remember, the House debated codes of practice a year ago in January 1986. I shall be most interested to hear the comments made in Committee today, because, personally, I am far from happy about the Government's proposal.
If I understand the matter aright, the main proposal being put forward is without precedent. It is that compliance with the code of practice will be an absolute defence to a charge of misleading pricing. I take the same view as the National Consumer Council; namely, that such a proposal has the effect of elevating the code beyond one of guidance and that it will detract from the general duty.
That brings me to the narrow point I made previously. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, will comment upon it. Is there not a danger in this Bill that we become too legalistic so that examination of technical detail overrides the necessity of making a judgment?
Coming back to my fears on this proposed code of practice, I believe that what the Government are proposing will encourage, as the National Consumer Council say, a narrow, legalistic interpretation of the code. I would support what I think the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, proposed in his remarks, and say that I would accept the view that the code we are now discussing should have the same status as the Highway Code. I would accept such a solution, because I believe, in common with consumer organisations, that we have an important constitutional dimension to bear in mind. If the code is granted formal status, it will assume the importance of delegated legislation. But Parliament will not have had the opportunity to discuss in detail what behaviour should or should not be lawful in this area. This seems to me serious and, I should have thought, an unwelcome innovation both to another place and to our House.
On Clause 25, if I have got it right, the Secretary of State does not have to approve a code at all, but he can of course, by a provision in this clause, approve codes made by other persons. Again, if I understand it correctly, such codes also provide an absolute defence. I wonder whether the Minister accepts the interpretation that Parliament would be delegating to the Executive the power to give legislative effect to codes drawn up by interest groups whether in industry or elsewhere. Concern on this constitutional aspect is expressed by the National Consumer Council, by consumer organisations, and by myself. It will also, I hope, be expressed by many Members of the Committee today.
I think it relevant before I sit down to add here the concern expressed by the Association of County Councils and the Retail Consortium. The Association
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of County Councils has written to many Members of the Committee stating that Clause 25(3) provides that the code of practice relating to misleading price indications shall be admissible in evidence for the purpose of defence, but contravention of the code is not of itself an offence.
While the Government consider that this gives a degree of certainty to the trade, the Association of County Councils believes that it is a one-sided certainty. The Retail Consortium expresses the view that the code is a rogues' charter. Obviously, whatever our views, there are loopholes in the code. I support entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, has said, and the Committee awaits the reply of the Minister with considerable interest.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: These grouped amendments, Amendments Nos. 71, 76 and 81, raise important questions concerning the principles of enforcement procedures under Part III of this Bill. I take it that it is in order to speak to the amendments as they are grouped.
Amendment No. 72, standing in my name and in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton, rests upon the assumption that Amendment No. 71 is well founded and that Clause 20(4) cannot remain in the Bill. Such is the extent of the common ground on the grouped amendments between myself and the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, that in fact we excise Clause 20(4) in this Bill. However, the grouping of the amendments marks the gap which lies between us on Amendments Nos. 76 and 81.
If one accepts that Clause 20(4) must be deleted, the fundamental question is whether the Government wish to resort to contravention of a code of practice in any form as an aid to conviction under Clause 20(1) and (2) or, on the other hand, wish to adopt the traditional approach of introducing a statutory code of practice where breach of provision creates a criminal offence—this as an adjunct to Clauses 20 to 23, enforcement procedures—by the introduction of a statutory instrument under Clause 26.
The hope must be that my noble friend the Minister will not only accept that Clause 20(4) cannot remain for various reasons which I hope to give in a moment, but also that he will adopt the traditional approach. It is the provisions of Clause 25 of this Bill which will require fundamental recasting. That would be done on the assumption that Clauses 20 to 24 can stand, with the excision of Clause 20(4). There is no great feat of draftsmanship involved in this, because as soon as the principle is plain and has been accepted, then that can be done without difficulty.
Clause 26 stands, and here I would support the late amendment supplementary to the Marshalled List. I would therefore support Amendment No. 71 and I would oppose Amendment No. 76, which removes compliance with the code of practice as a defence under Clause 24(1)(a). However, I accept that the code will require some redrafting for such a purpose.
I oppose Amendment No. 81 and respectfully dissent from the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, and the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, that the Highway Code approach is at all appropriate.

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What the noble Lord seeks to suggest is that the code should have a status akin to that of the Highway Code as introduced by Section 35(5) of the Transport Act 1972. It could then be relied upon for the purpose of establishing liability as an aid to conviction under Clause 20.
The reason why the Highway Code approach is misconceived is that the code as it stands is not in such a form as could be used for the purpose. Its content over 20 pages is wholly inappropriate as an aid to conviction under Clause 20(1) or (2), unless particulars of the part of the code to be relied upon by the Crown as relevant to the charge are given to an accused before his trial starts to enable him to know the substance of the case and even to prepare his defence and such particulars in a defended case in the criminal court were put to the accused in cross-examination and formed part of the evidence at the trial. Without such safeguards, Amendment No. 81 would work a substantial injustice—a concept which is of course germane to the resort to any code and which is covered by Amendment No. 72 which follows.
The second reason why the Highway Code approach is not appropriate was given by my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate on 15th January 1986 in the debate to which the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, referred. I quote from col. 1099 of the Official Report:
"There are a few instances such as the provisions which introduce the Highway Code, where compliance or non-compliance with the code may have an important bearing on the outcome of civil or criminal proceedings, but these instances are, I think, exceptional and represent the extreme end of the spectrum of legal effect. Any obligation, breach of which would result in civil or criminal liability"—
and here we are concerned with criminal liability—
"I suggest, should be in the primary or secondary legislation: and it is breach of that obligation, and not breach of any code relating to the obligation, which results in civil or criminal liability".
I say in the presence of my noble and learned friend that that is advice of the highest order and advice which the Government should heed.
The reasons given by my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate are relevant to support the excision of Clause 20(4) from the Bill. On objective analysis, the subsection is ill-conceived. It is neither requisite, nor is it apt; it is neither workable, nor is it consistent with criminal procedure. Furthermore, it is suggested that in any event it should be rewritten in two parts. Perhaps my noble friend the Minister can consider that suggestion. However, I do not expect any considered reply today.
As regards Part 1, one can extract from this rather loose verbiage in 20 pages about eight specific criminal offences. One then puts them into a statutory instrument and introduces that under Clause 26. Part 1 has then gone.
Then one is left with Part 2 and the rest of the material. Under these provisions compliance with the code affords a statutory defence under Clause 24(1)(a). So be it, but those provisions are not admissible for any purpose other than the question of the defence. For that purpose Part 2 of the code should be rewritten.
It is quite simple. One introduces Part 1 by means of a statutory instrument. It is then removed from the code. One redrafts Part 2 and introduces that in
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redrafted form under Clause 24(1)(a). This code of practice would have legal efficacy and would be subject to the approval of both Houses of Parliament—and I would support Amendments Nos. 83 and 84 in this regard—and it should be issued by the Secretary of State under Amendment No. 78.
If the Secretary of State wishes to issue a code of guidance to traders—this is another point taken by the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher—the Bill could provide for that. In a sense it does so already, although it is desperately confused as it stands.
If one looks at Clause 25(1)(b) and takes it out of its general context, there is the trigger clause to introduce a code of guidance which has no legal efficacy and would not be admissible in procedures for any purpose whatsoever, and as regards such equality of code the question of approval by Parliament would not arise. This third limb of what was called by the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, the tripartite arrangement is totally misconceived. One gets to the stage where in one breath one is treating it as if it is a mere code of guidance and in another breath one is saying that it can be admitted in court proceedings. The two simply will not work.
The Bill would be workable as it stands under Clause 20(1) and (2), as applied by Clauses 21 to 23, and it would stand as primary legislation without any extraneous aid to conviction. The statutory defence of compliance with the code could remain under Clause 24(1)(a), and the Control of Pollution Act 1974 stands as an interesting precedent for this very thing. The other defences which are built in to Clause 24(1)(b) would remain.
In that situation, and holding to the primary legislation—the first point made by my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate on 15th January—the Government could, if so advised, extend the ambit of primary legislation by introducing secondary legislation under Clause 26 in the form of a statutory instrument. There is ample precedent for that—the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974, the Radioactive Substances Act and so on. But what is not acceptable is this half-way house substitution for secondary legislation, whereby, although contravention of the code cannot as such constitute an offence under Clause 25(3), it may be used as an aid to conviction as proposed by Clause 20(4). I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, that this is ill-conceived; and there is no precedent for it in our law.
The mould from which Clause 20(4), taken in conjunction with Clause 25(3), was cast has been used for well over 10 years to establish the legal status of codes of practice introduced by statute. But this has been done in a wholly dissimilar context and not in a criminal context. One can cite as examples the codes under the Employment Act, the Sex Discrimination Act, the Race Relations Act and so on. The latest example is Section 67(11) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act which introduced and dealt with a variety of police powers and procedural matters concerned with criminal law. But in this case the clause is being used in a totally unprecedented way, as has been pointed out by the noble Baroness, in order to show that contravention is an aid to conviction.

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It comes to this. Used as a shield by way of defence, under Clause 24 the redrafted code of practice would be a wholly acceptable safeguard for an accused trader. But if it is used as a sword under Clause 20(4), where contravention of the code serves as an aid to conviction, it is wholly unacceptable. In any event it is not appropriate that the present law regulating misleading price indications (Section 11 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 and the Price Marking of Bargain Offers Order 1979, as amended) should be replaced and extended in this way. If they are to be replaced, it is suggested for the consideration of the Government that the traditional approach of resort to the statutory instrument under Clause 26 would be more appropriate.
Lastly, the mandatory provision "if the court thinks" and "the court shall" is wholly inconsistent with any traditional concept of trial by jury and is totally unworkable. It is unacceptable in a summary trial. The court cannot think half way through a criminal trial: hence the proposals in Amendment No. 72 to avoid injustice to the accused and to safeguard some of the fundamental aspects of criminal procedure. This being a matter of general concern, the hope is—and I share the hope of the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher—that my noble friend the Minister will be able to accept, whatever else is accepted, that Clause 20(4) must go.
The hope is also that he will consider resorting to the simple, traditional approach which I have proposed, and which indeed was the second leg of the tripartite arrangement referred to by the noble Lord, that a statutory instrument should be introduced under Clause 26 if the ambit of the offences under Clause 20(1) and (2) is to be extended; and that my noble friend may accept retaining compliance with the code as a defence, redrafted albeit, and that it may not be relied upon at all as an aid to prosecution. In those circumstances the hope must be that, at this stage of the Bill, your Lordships' Committee will not divide on any of these amendments. I respectfully suggest that it would be to the mutual benefit of all of us to study what noble Lords have had to say on a very technical and difficult problem.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: It may well be for the benefit of the Committee if I speak now. That is not to say that I shall not listen carefully to anything your Lordships may have to say following my remarks.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, for the way in which he has put this group of amendments. I start by setting the scene, as it were, because the status of an approved code of practice is touched on at three points in Part III of the Bill. This group of amendments deals with all three points. The main provision is Clause 24(1) which makes it a defence for a trader to show that he has complied with the requirements of an approved code or practice. Clauses 25(3) and 20(4) deal with related matters, that is, the status of the code when it is not a defence. But they do raise slightly different issues. It might be helpful to deal with these first before coming on to the status of the code as a defence. They are relevant too, to Amendment No. 72 put down by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway.
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The intention behind Clause 20(4) and Clause 25(3) is to establish what use can be made of the code of practice in proceedings where it is not being relied upon as a defence. We intend—and I believe this intention is shared by a number of noble Lords—that in those circumstances, it should be open to both the prosecution and the defence to refer to the provisions of an approved code of practice as part of their case. Where this is done and the provisions are relevant, the courts should take account of them in determining whether the price indication was misleading.
I said "we intend" advisedly, because I would like now to make clear that we have some doubts that the Bill as drafted in fact fulfils our intentions. For example, Clause 20(4) to which my noble friend has referred could be read as suggesting that the courts should take account of an approved code whether or not it is cited in evidence by either of the parties—a point I think the noble Baroness made. It also limits the circumstances in which the code is to be taken into account to those where there has been a contravention of relevant provisions, and this would clearly not assist the defendant.
I should like to assure my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway that we shall in any event be seriously considering the drafting of Clause 20(4) with the intention of bringing forward amendments to reflect our intentions more accurately and to make clearer what the status and effect of the code is in the circumstances I have described.
So much for that, because I have, surely, to address myself to the major point before the Committee, which is the status of the code of practice as a defence, and the point that the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, made with regard to a document which we received. I confirm that we did receive on 22nd January—last Thursday—a set of agreed proposals concerning this part of the Bill. This document was from the Retail Consortium, the National Consumer Council and the Local Authorities Co-ordinating Body on Trading Standards. Looking at that document, I am glad to say that the concordat—if I may so call the joint body—endorsed the broad approach of the Bill now before the Committee; that is to say, they endorsed a general offence of giving a misleading price indication; and they endorsed a code of practice and a power to make specific regulations. However, the bodies concerned, the concordat, made it clear that among other things they had serious reservations concerning the status of the code of practice. Notwithstanding the time element of Thursday 22nd January, just a week ago, it would clearly be wrong for the Government to ignore the considered opinions of so many of those so closely involved. I am quite sure the Committee will agree that the proposals have serious and wide ranging implications. It has not been possible to assess all those in the course of just one week. In addition, the views of those not party to that concordat need to be heard.
Accordingly, we now propose to hold further serious consultations on all aspects of the question with all the parties involved. The matter is complicated and many interests are concerned. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will understand that this may take some time. While I have to say that at present we remain convinced on balance that the status of the code now in the Bill offers many advantages, I take the

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opportunity to assure the Committee that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is prepared to reflect the outcome of the serious and proper consultations to which I have referred when this Bill is before another place. Therefore, I think it would be injudicious of me if I were to respond directly this afternoon to a number of points which have already been raised because of the relevance that my answers might have in any subsequent matters before another place or, indeed, your Lordships' House.
Having said that, and repeating that I should like to have the views of the Committee so that we can enter into these consultations knowing those views, and with the assurance that such a consultation is to be serious, I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, whether, on reflection, as we come towards the end of our debate, he would care at this stage to withdraw the amendment.
4.15 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: The noble Lord the Minister has made a very important statement in respect of the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Gallacher. As I understand him, what he is saying in effect is that the Government are going to rethink this part of the Bill in the light of consultations which they will hold with all parties, including those who are party to the concordat which submitted certain proposals. Furthermore, I understood the noble Lord to say that the result of those discussions will not be available to your Lordships and that this will be incorporated in the Bill as and when it goes to another place. I find that procedure very odd. I find it odd that your Lordships can accept that a Bill which, by all standards and by the Government's admission, is imperfectly drafted should leave this Committee in the state that it is in and go to another place for the matter to be settled. It is up to noble Lords to decide what they will do and whether they wish to speak further on this. I shall be consulting with my noble friend about how we handle this particular amendment, but I cannot refrain from saying that I find this procedure quite extraordinary.
Lord Denning: I should like to approach this problem as a lawyer. Codes of practice are comparatively new in legislation. They have proved most valuable. For example, there is the Highway Code, the industrial relations code, the police code, and so on. However, their proper role is to give guidance and, if need be, illustrations as to the operation of the law. I have here Section 11 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, which came in long before this Bill. I quote from Section 11, and the Committee will see how difficult this would be to apply.
"If any person offering to supply goods of any description gives, by whatever means, any false indication to the effect that the price at which the goods are offered is equal to or less than—

(a) recommended price; or

(b) the price at which the goods or goods of the same description were previously offered by him; or is less than such a price by a specified amount, he shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be guilty of an offence".

That is the provision which traders, the public and the magistrates have to apply and it is a hopeless form of legislation for ordinary individuals.
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The code of practice should be illustrative. It should give guidance for the people who have to apply the law. However, it should not go further. It should not be part of the law itself. The code should not lay down requirements, as these clauses do one way or another. Reading the clauses as they stand, the code can require this or that. That is delegated legislation. It should not be done in that form in a code of practice. If there are to be requirements in the law they should be done by statutory instrument or by regulation.
Therefore, the requirements in this part of the Bill should go out completely. The code of practice should give practical illustrated guidance to the people who have to carry out the law—the traders on the one side and the enforcement officers on the other. The enforcement officer can then say, "Look here, is that description 'reduced by 10 per cent.' true? Have you really reduced your prices by 10 per cent. or are you saying that they are 10 per cent. lower than some other person's prices?". In other words, the code should give guidance to the trader when putting up his notices, and so on, and guidance on what the enforcement officer must do. The enforcement officer can advise the trader on what he can or cannot do and the trader can comply without referring to the magistrates. The code of practice should give guidance, with illustrations, and go no further.
We then come to the Bill itself. It should include the code of practice but should give it a proper status. Subsection (4) should not contain the requirement that for,
"any contravention of a requirement … the court shall take that contravention into account",
whether it is for the prosecution or the defence. That is not the proper function of a code of practice.
I was glad to hear what my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway said, and indeed, what the Minister said, but the Government should take this back and consider it in relation to the right standings of law. An Act of Parliament should contain statutory regulations to carry out requirements in relation to a code of practice. A code of practice is not an enactment of any law. It should give guidance and illustrations for the people who have to act on the law. Then when the matter comes to the magistrates or a court, you go by the actual statute provisions and let the code of practice come in evidentially to see whether there has been a breach of the law.
I have tried to give a simple explanation of what the law ought to be in regard to codes of practice and I hope that when the Government put forward an amendment it will conform to those principles.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: The Minister will
appreciate that many people in addition to the Front Bench spokesman in this debate have shown a keen interest in this subject. I believe that the Minister has seriously taken on board the views conveyed to him from major interests outside the House. He referred to the manner in which those interests have got together to form a concordat and produce a concerted view.
He was absolutely right in pointing out that they did not represent the sum total of all those whose views are entitled to be represented. That is absolutely right. However, if one wanted to look for a limited number

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of people who can best say that they represent the majority of views outside this place, then he has been in touch with that limited number of organisations. It is not an exclusive brethren but certainly the sum total of collective wisdom on this matter.
The Minister will recall that when we had this part of the Bill before us on Second Reading it was immediately picked upon by many speakers and he was reminded that we were not looking at the first draft, or even the second draft, but the third draft. We recognise the difficulties and the complexity in trying to get the Bill right, but I remind the noble Lord, with respect, that the Government took the view that they had it right in producing the wording on the face of the Bill. They took the view that this would be a unique code of practice because it was to have attached to it a status that did not make it a code of practice as we know it but a piece of legislation. However, it is not only a piece of legislation with power but also legislation that is lopsided in terms that are inequitable in its application.
I simply say this to the Minister. I do not understand precisely how this matter can be resolved, but if the Government thought fit after all the consultation that took place before we saw the Bill to put on the face of the Bill the words that they have, then quite clearly they were determined on what they intended to do. If the Minister is now telling us that they are in a mood to reflect, no one in this Committee wishes to inhibit the Government in reaching satisfactory arrangements with outside interests.
We do not have a timescale in this place which chops off a part of our province in order to meet a government timetable here or in the other place. We are not duty bound in this place to proceed to the Report stage and Third Reading. The necessity to, as it were, kick this part of the Bill into court is to meet a timescale which is not part of our doing. I imagine that the House can wait a very long time for the next stage of the Bill if in that interim period a satisfactory arrangement can be made.
I carefully noted what the Minister said. He said that his right honourable friend would look at the product of further discussions and see that they were reflected in other changes to the Bill which are brought forward in another place. The Minister shakes his head, not for the first time. I may have misunderstood what he said, but if the Minister in another place is to come forward with changes in the Bill which simply reflect views, he must understand that our bêete noire in this matter is the status of the code.
If, among all the provisions that appear in any amendment in another place, the status of the code still remains unchanged, then all that will have happened is that the battle will have moved on to another place and this Chamber will have been denied what I believe it wants; namely, to be able to tell the Minister in clear terms that what matters is the status of the code. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, pointed out, inclusion of the code in a piece of legislation dressed up, as it is, with the words that the Minister has used is not merely undesirable but unworthy of it.
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I very much hope that the Minister will reflect and seek further advice. Everyone is entitled to his views but I venture to say to him that on this matter the comments will not differ from the views that he has received from the Retail Consortium, the Cooperative Union, the Consumers Association, the National Consumer Council and the trading standards inspectors. There will be other viewpoints, but so far as concerns the quality and the status of the code the advice will be the same.
4.30 p.m.
Earl De La Warr: I should like to thank my noble friend the Minister for the extremely generous way in which he has listened to the arguments that have been put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, and argued so brilliantly, if I may say so, by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway.
Before I make any comments about the code of practice—and many of these comments are now superfluous because so much has already been said—I should just like to take up the point about the timing of the negotiations in relation to the timetable of this Chamber.
I understand the objections put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Williams and Lord Graham of Edmonton, but surely there are two important points to consider. The first is that these discussions between the Government and the trade have to be got right. I am talking perhaps more as a businessman than a politician, but I do not believe that this kind of negotiation can necessarily fit into government timetables. My noble friend said that this Bill will have to go to another place, and perhaps that is so, but maybe the negotiations will be completed more speedily than has been expected. However, let us remember that we are used to acting as a revising Chamber and being the second place to receive Bills. We constantly have the job of dealing with matters that have been ill-considered in the other place.
I believe that there are powerful arguments on both sides but I insist that the most important one is that which says, "Let these negotiations be carried out fully and completely and be got right". That is more important than the timetable of one House in this Parliament.
I said that many of my remarks had been rendered superfluous but I should like to point out that long before I heard the powerful legal arguments that were put forward by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway, I had, as someone who for a number of years had a very large number of shops under my control, concluded that there was something in the highest degree impractical about this code of practice. I envisaged a shop manager, preparing for the sales the next day with his hands full of price cards and a third hand, presumably, holding on to this complex code, who would be wondering exactly where he stood.
I also took the point which was subsequently made so powerfully that this code really related to two different types of animal. There were the requirements and there were the pieces of advice. I should like to give one example of each. Paragraph no. 1.2.2, which deals with previous price comparisons and introduces what is known as the 28-day rule, is quite clearly a

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requirement. On the other hand, paragraph no. 1.3.6 reads as follows:
"It is not practical to provide in this Code a generally acceptable length of time for which you could let an introductory offer … run on before it would become misleading … You should be careful to avoid letting these situations arise but what is a reasonable length of time must depend on the individual circumstances".
One cannot have that sort of statement coming up in a court of law. It is of an advisory nature.
When I heard this proposition that the important requirements (the abuses that are well known in the market-place already) should be taken out of the code and put into statutory regulations, it seemed to me that for the first time we were going along the right path. Although I shall not press this point, I for one conclude that there is no need for a code of practice at all. I shall not enlarge on that point because I think it has been covered already by implication. I appreciate that the Government have been working on this code for eight months and it might be a little hard on them to ask them to remove it altogether, so let us be charitable, and if the code must remain as a piece of good, homely advice, let it do just that.
I repeat that I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for what he has so generously said. If it be necessary—and I do not think it will be—I beg the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, who has moved these amendments so well, not to press them.
Lord Ezra: All the Members who have spoken in this debate have expressed grave concern about the code of practice and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, in replying to the discussions at an earlier stage, indicated that the Government were reviewing the whole position and were in the process of talking to interested parties. However, what worries me—as it has worried the noble Lord, Lord Williams—is that in the Government's present thinking we shall not have the opportunity of coming back to this question before the Bill leaves this Chamber. I feel that that is a matter of very grave concern.
We are a Chamber which prides itself on trying to get legislation right and any Bills that are discussed here first and are sent by us to another place should at least be sent in their entirety after our full consideration and not have one important part of the Bill left unattended to. I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, whether it is possible for the Government to come back to this issue at Report and give us an indication of what they intend to do so that we can then have a further debate on the matter before the Bill leaves us.
Lord Mottistone: I, too, should like very much to support the remarks that have just been made by the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, and from the Benches opposite. One gathers from listening to the argument that this is a. very difficult problem.
My noble friend Lord De La Wan has told the Committee that the department has been engaged upon this matter for eight months. I note that the draft of this code of practice, which is the third revision, is dated November. Surely it is not wise for Parliament as a whole not to give this very difficult subject a chance of proper review by both Chambers. If it comes to the fore first in another place, this Chamber cannot
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give it proper scrutiny when considering any' amendments that the other place may have made. It is not a stage at which one really gets one's teeth into the issues.
Personally, I should prefer it if, over and above what has been proposed, the section of the Bill concerning these various matters were brought back for recommitment so that we may have proper discussions to and fro. If this means that the legislation, for all sorts of reasons, will be much later than the Government intended, it would not matter in the same way that it did not matter in 1983 when some excellent Bills died and came back when Parliament resumed. It could even be thought of in those terms. It is that sort of legislation—not political with a capital "P" but the sort that needs careful consideration by many learned and expert minds such as the House can provide. I hope that my noble friend will persuade his right honourable friends that the Bill requires proper treatment by this House before it goes to another place so that Parliament as a whole can do its job properly.
Lord Henderson of Brompton: I wish to express an opinion contrary to that expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, and the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone. Most Bills start in the House of Commons. They go to Standing Committees and, where possible, undertakings given in Standing Committee are fulfilled during consideration on Report. The Bill then comes here. Undertakings may also be given that cannot be fulfilled in time for consideration on Report in another place. Those undertakings are fulfilled in this House. We, too, have had experience of this. Exactly the same process occurred only the other day.
It sems to me eminently reasonable, the Minister having made such an important statement, that we should allow him and his department time for the highly complex consultations that will have to take place. I am sure that the noble Lord the Minister would wish to bring the results of those complex consultations to this House in time for Report and Third Reading. If not, it is surely better to get them right and put them into the Bill in the House of Commons rather than put them in, possibly in an unconsidered form, in this House. Therefore, I find myself in disagreement, I hope for valid reasons, with the contrary opinions that have been expressed hitherto.
I wish to deal with only one matter. As the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate knows, I have hunted with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, on the subject of codes of practice. It is close to the anniversary of the debate that we had last year when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, answered and was extremely helpful. I remember having proposed that there should be a code of practice on codes of practice because they had got into such a muddle. I only wish that there had been such a code of practice on codes of practice. This dog's dinner would never have occurred. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate might yet reconsider having some guidance on codes of practice so that if specific criminal offences and the admissibility thereof in court proceedings have to be put into codes of practice, they are put in a separate

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part and subject to statutory instrument. I could not ask for more than that. That is, I think, what Lord Campbell of Alloway is after; it is certainly what I am after. The muddle that the department has got into on this occasion would be well sorted out if the noble Lord could give some undertaking that he will consider that suggestion carefully.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Because we are in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton, suggests that we are in an analogous situation to that in Committee in another place when the Government say that there are some matters that they will put right on Report. Some things they say they cannot put right on Report but undertake to put right in another place.
If we were considering an undertaking by the Government to put right in another place that which they say they cannot put right in this place, it would be an analogous situation. As I understand what the Minister has said, he is not telling us that he hears what we say, that the Government agree with what we want, but that they cannot put it right here, and so will put it right in another place. If that were the gravamen of what was being said, we would say: all right, we know that it is coming, not here, but in another place. With great respect, I did not understand the Minister to tell us that he was giving an undertaking that what we want—that is, a change in the status of the code—would be put right in another place.
If the Minister, when he speaks again, as I imagine he will, proceeds to tell us that he takes on board seriously that this, among other things, is what we want and that it will be put right in another place, then it puts a different complexion on the discussion. I may have misheard the Minister, but I do not think that that is so.
4.45 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: I should like to thank my noble friend the Minister for the magnificent gesture that he has made. Now that I have listened to the debate, I fully appreciate the difficulties that he has. Having had representations from the trade for some eight months, three drafts and a dog's dinner of a code in the end, he has my sympathy.
There are two separate points here, both valid and important. One is the objection in limine to Clause 20(4) for the reasons given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and that I attempted to give myself. The other is the trade objection. I do not know whether my noble friend the Minister could meet one and take time on the other.
I am seeking to meet the the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. It seems to me that subsection (4) must go, and the Government should accept that it must go. If the Government accept that and it goes, one needs no more and one can leave the matter to go ahead.
Lord Williams of Elvel: To summarise the Opposition's position on the Minister's proposal, it takes us somewhat by surprise that the Government have produced a Bill, laid it before your Lordships'
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House and suddenly in Committee, as a result of representations made from third parties, decide that they now want to change it. Yet that is the situation before us.
We would hope for—indeed, we would expect—two things from the noble Lord the Minister: first—I refer to what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, said—a statement in principle now about the direction in which the Government intend to move; secondly, on Report, to have some formulation of that intention. It may not be a final formulation, but we would like some formulation that the Committee with the great depth and breadth of experience that the members have, can then debate.
I shall be advising the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, to withdraw the amendment; but I very much hope that the Minister can give us the two assurances that I have outlined. If he cannot, I am afraid that we will be under an obligation to move the same amendments on Report, and to repeat the debate.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part on this further debate on the substance of the amendments. As I said earlier, I shall of course give careful consideration to what they have said.
We seem to have spent some little while on matters of procedure. I do not complain about that, because it is important. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Williams was right, when I had finished, in drawing our attention to these procedural matters. He will perhaps agree on reflection that what I was proposing is not quite so unusual. It has been done before, and I think that we may be a little wiser for the benefit of the advice given us by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton.
What it now comes down to is that I have to answer the two points the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, has just put to me. Against that background, he will I am sure accept that the Government had few doubts as to the principles that were endorsed in the Bill until last Thursday, when the document from the Retail Consortium and others was put before us. It was because of the weight of that representation that we felt that we had to give the matter further consideration. That is what I have offered to do, and that is what we shall continue to do.
I cannot make a statement as to the direction that we propose to take, because I then prejudge what may be said to me, my right honourable friend, my honourable friend or my officials. All of us will be involved in these serious and complex discussions. I cannot give the noble Lord an answer on that. The Committee will see that I am not being unreasonable.
On the second point, I believe that we may well have advanced sufficiently in those consultations by the time this place comes back to the Bill for me to give an indication of the progress of those consultations and possibly even the direction they are taking. I gladly undertake to advise this place at that time how things are going. With those two assurances, I ask the noble Lord not to press his amendments this afternoon.
Lord Gallacher: I thank all Members of the Committee who have taken part in the consideration

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of the amendment and in the subsequent procedural discussion arising from the Minister's statement. I thank the Minister for the statement which he made fairly early in our deliberations and which I think helped the committee. The spirit in which it was made is also appreciated by me.
When I spoke, admittedly from the Back Benches, on Second Reading on 8th December, I suggested a tripartite approach under the good offices of the Department of Trade and Industry. In his reply the Minister did not mention what I had suggested. In my innocence I took that to be a good sign and believed that he did not want to commit himself to anything that evening. I left the matter there. Unfortunately, it may have been better if I had pushed a little during the intervening period. We may then have been slightly further along the road than we find ourselves today; nevertheless, I respond to what has been asked of me. I accept what my noble friend Lord Williams said in his final comment on this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.
Lord Campbell of Alloway Lord Campbell of Alloway moved Amendment No. 72:
Page 18, line, 9, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
("( ) In any proceedings for an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above the charge shall contain particulars of the requirements of the Code of Practice as approved under section 25 below alleged to have been contravened.
( ) If it is concluded that any such contravention is relevant to any question to be determined in such proceedings it shall be taken into account in determining rich question.
( ) On trial on indictment the court shall direct the jury as to whether any alleged contravention can be relevant to any particular question arising for determination.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment, which I can speak to much more briefly, relies upon the assumption that Clause 20(4) in some form remains in the Bill, which of course is the antithesis of the true argument for which I contend. The amendment is worthy of consideration because it assumes that Clause 20(4) is deleted but that the words printed in the Marshalled List are substituted by way of safeguards. Those safeguards are, it is suggested, wholly essential if resort is to be had to a code of practice as an aid to conviction.
The mandatory provisions of Clause 20(4) provide that contraventions of the code shall be taken into account if relevant,
"to any question that falls to be determined in those proceedings".
That is unworkable without some qualification or safeguard as proposed by the amendment. For example, what is the "question"? We must identify that.
I have already referred to the form of the code. If the offences are not singled out (eight of them perhaps) and put into a statutory instrument but are left lying around in a code of practice (1.1.3 and 2.2.1 are two possible examples which I shall not cite to save time) one is in cloud-cuckoo-land when it comes to legal proceedings in the criminal courts. We have a 22-page document which is called a Code of Practice for Traders on Price Indications. That is a legitimate document. But if it is to be used in a court it would have to be totally rewritten and adapted.
Two fundamental principles of the criminal law do not appear to have been recognised by the draftsman of Clause 20(4). The first is that an accused must always know the substance of the case he has to meet with sufficient particularity to enable him to prepare his defence. The Bill provides for trial by jury on indictment.
The second point is that the draftsman betrays an ignorance of the respective functions of judge and jury in a criminal trial. At the close of the Crown case it is for the judge to rule whether as a matter of law there is evidence of any contravention of the code of practice which can go to the jury; having got past that stage, if there is, whether such contravention (if found by the jury to be a contravention) can be relevant:
"to any question that falls to be determined in those proceedings"
and it identifies the question.
That brings to an end the judge's function in summing up in a jury trial. Having ruled in favour of the Crown on both those issues in the absence of the jury, it is then entirely a matter of fact for the jury to decide whether such a contravention was relevant to such question and, if so, then to take it into account.
It is not the court which takes that into account; it is the jury who takes it into account if it thinks that it is relevant after having been directed by the judge. It is not for the judge to "think", as enjoined by Clause 20(4); it is a matter for the jury, who at the end of the day has to return a verdict not upon what it "thinks" but upon what it is satisfied about beyond all reasonable doubt. But the judge may indicate his thoughts on matters of fact under Clause 24(4), and that is as far as it goes. The form in which this is cast, to which I referred before, is wholly inappropriate to the conduct of criminal proceedings.
Referring to another part of the amendment, unless provisions of the code have been identified and particularised in relation to an alleged contravention, which is relevant also to the question to be determined, this would merely work an intolerable injustice, would be redolent of delay, and would serve as a source of confusion. The charge in this regard has to be laid as suggested in this amendment—specifically; and at all events, particulars must be given well in advance of the trial.
While we are discussing this purely legal question, proceedings for an offence under Clause 20(4) will not include appellate proceedings. So only to the extent that an identifiable provision of the code of practice, as supporting an allegation of contravention relevant to an identifiable question to be determined, has been led in evidence, has been put to the accused, and has become part of the material in the trial, may it be raised in the appellate court. The form of Clause 20(4) is totally flawed and utterly misconceived.
I ask the Minister this. After his deliberations, if he comes to the conclusion that he wishes to use a code of practice as an aid to conviction—namely contravention of the code—then instead of issuing a statutory instrument under Clause 26, would he then consider with an open mind the spirit of Amendment No. 72? However I would never dream of foisting upon him my drafting because as Members of the Committee know, I am no draftsman.
5 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway for the way in which he has explained his amendment. I have said earlier that we accept that there are difficulties with Clause 20(4) as it is at present drafted.
Then we have to consider seriously the drafting of that clause and with it, Clause 25(3) with the intention of bringing forward amendments to reflect our intentions more accurately and to make clearer the status and the effect of the code in the circumstances that I have described.
I think my noble friend will recognise that the Committee has agreed that the Government should give much wider consideration to the matters touched on in his amendment. I assure him that will be so, and I hope that he will not feel that the brevity of my response is in any way dismissive of the very careful analysis which he has put before the Committee. With that assurance, I hope that he will be prepared to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: I am extremely grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his magnanimity. It is quite something to take this all back at this stage. I do not think it should be underestimated. I am extremely grateful and I am fully content to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 20 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Monson: Before we leave Clause 20, perhaps I may put one question to the Minister concerning the prohibition of misleading price indications, and in so doing descend from the general to the particular.
Anyone who has glanced at the City pages of our national daily and Sunday newspapers will have noticed numerous advertisements for unit trusts. But, whereas the benefits and the alleged financial advantages of investing one or other unit trust are blazened across the page in bold type, the actual costs of so doing (by which I mean the initial and annual charges) are generally listed in a typeface so small as to be unreadable without the use of a magnifying glass.
Front-end loading ranges from 0 to 5 per cent., in the case of gilt trusts and from 3 to 5¼ per cent., in the case of equity-based trusts. The annual charges range from to ½ 2 per cent. plus VAT. Over a five to 10 year period this makes quite a difference on the assumption that the underlying performance of each trust is identical for the purposes of comparison. There is no guarantee whatsoever that high charges are compensated for by a superior performance. Sometimes this is the case, but quite frequently it is not.
We are not talking about a negligible matter, particularly bearing in mind the large number of unsophisticated small investors who are currently entering the market for the first time in the wake of the British Telecom and British Gas flotations. It would appear that investors in single premium bonds, which contain an element of insurance, are covered or
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protected by this Bill by virtue of Clause 21(1) (a) in combination with Clause 22(1)(a). Investors in unit trusts are not so covered, which is illogical.
I should like to ask the Minister whether or not he regards the listing of the unit trust initial and annual charges in minuscule type as tantamount to misleading price indications as defined in this Bill. Or, are the advertisers remaining just within the letter of law, even if not within the spirit of the law?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I think if the noble Lord, Lord Monson, addresses himself carefully to Clause 22 he will see that prices of investment such as unit trusts are covered by the Financial Services Act 1986 which was discussed by your Lordships last year. They are excluded from this Bill by virtue of that clause. I would anticipate that the regulations, or the rules as I think they are to be called, under the Financial Services Act will ensure that all relevant matters that an investor should take into account or to whose attention matters should be drawn will be reflected in those rules. I cannot really offer anything to the noble Lord under the terms of the Bill before the Committee this afternoon.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I wonder whether under the Question whether the clause shall stand part of the Bill the Minister can help me with this problem? We are dealing with the first clause concerning misleading prices. I am certain that this will affect the interests of millions of people. We take on board the interests of traders and organisations, and also the legal profession, in guiding us. I should like to ask the Minister to tell us whether or not he or his department have in mind how they are going to publicise in an attractive way to the general public the net product of what will finally emerge at the end of the Bill.
The Government have quite rightly considered it apropriate that the Bill sees the light of day in 1987. I am most anxious that this matter is not left simply to traders, organisations, councils and others. I understand that the Government genuinely want to see the Bill work effectively. Perhaps the Minister can indicate whether this is the appropriate clause on which to raise the matter. I do not seek to amend the Bill. I want to publicise it as adequately and effectively as possible in the future. Can the Government give me some indication of any plans they have to ensure that it is in effect sold to the public once it becomes law?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am grateful to the noble Lord. His question raises a fundamental matter. This part of the Bill on misleading prices is directed in particular to the consumer in order that he may have a proper choice—as it is simply put, that he is not misled.
We have a certain flexibility—indeed I might almost call it a fluidity—in our plans to advertise the outcome of Parliament's deliberations on the Bill in this clause in particular. We would hope to publish the code in an attractive form with sufficient guidance to the consumer. We would rely upon all those other agencies—the noble Lords knows of them; I need not spell them out—who have at all times been tremendously helpful to governments of all persuasions in disseminating useful information. I talk

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about radio, television and the other agencies. We would want to be talking with them on how best we can give effect to what the noble Lord asks.
Lord Monson: Let me briefly reply to the Minister. I am grateful to him for what he said. There is no reason why he should remember this point—he has a lot on his plate—but in the course of our debates on the Financial Services Bill I specifically brought up the matter of unit trust charges being printed in unacceptably small type and suggested that some rectification might be incorporated into that Bill. I was specifically told by the Minister that that Bill was not a suitable vehicle for so doing. I am now suggesting that it be incorporated into this Bill. But the noble Lord now says that this Bill is not a suitable vehicle.
I am not entirely satisfied with his reply. I shall have to consider carefully what to do at the next stage of the Bill. I merely give the noble Lord notice of that matter.
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 [Meaning of "misleading"]:
5.15 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 21 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: I should be grateful if the noble Lord can help me with one or two questions of interpretation. This is an exceedingly complex clause in its drafting. It is not an easy one for the layman to read. If I mention one or two examples of my problems I hope that the noble Lord will not think that I am being exhaustive. I am sure that many others can cite all kinds of instances where similar problems arise.
I quote Clause 21(1)(a), which says that the expectation might be:
"that the price is less than in fact it is",
and paragraph (b)
"that the applicability of the price does not depend on facts or circumstances on which its applicability does in fact depend".
Does this cover quantity discounts? Does it cover promotional offers where an offer is made to sell an object at, let us say, 20p plus a wine glass or something if one buys the object? That is not "a sum" as defined in the word "price" under Clause 20, but it is part of the consideration for the exchange of the object.
One can go further and refer to vouchers which have a monetary value. The noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron, mentioned this matter at Question Time. If one has a voucher which can be cashed in somewhere else for the equivalent of, say, 10p, which is given to you if you buy an object the price of which is 20p, what is "the price" under those circumstances and how is that covered by this clause?
Referring to Clause 21(1)(c) I ask the Minister this question. What happens if the price is quoted net of VAT? Clause 21(1)(c) says:
"that price covers matters in respect of which an additional charge is in fact made".
Does VAT constitute an additional charge and, if the price is quoted net, does that mean that the price is in some way misleading as defined?
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Those are the questions that I should like to start with. I do not wish to come back provided that the Minister can help us. If he cannot, perhaps he would be kind enough to indicate that he would prefer to write to me. I speak from considerable experience of having to deal with these problems, as I said on Second Reading, when I was at the Price Commission. It is immensely difficult to define what is a misleading price and how it might work. I am not for a moment suggesting that we oppose the general notion that misleading price indications should be an offence. I am trying to ensure that I understand what the legislation is meant to say.
Lord Beaverbrook: This is a complicated clause. The difficulties of defining the word "misleading" demonstrate very clearly the need for some kind of supporting code of practice. On the points that the noble Lord makes about quantity discounts, what is "the price" in Clause 21(1)(b) and so on, broadly, yes, the matters are covered. The noble Lord mentioned VAT, and there may be other hidden extras. These are a continuing problem. Subsection (1)(c) will make it an offence to state or to imply that such charges are included in the price when they are not. I hope that answer goes some way to help the noble Lord on that clause.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: Will the Minister accept that I am concerned at what he has just said? It seems to run totally counter to my understanding of the whole spirit of the concessions in this debate. I merely wish to register my concern. I seek no answer.
When the noble Lord says that a code of practice will be necessary, does he mean that in his ministerial mind he still understands that contraventions of the code of practice should be relevant and permissible as an aid to conviction under Clauses 21 and 22? If he does, we are back where we started.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I should be grateful if the Minister could assist the Committee in clarifying this point. The clause is dominated by the word "facts". It includes "in fact", "the facts" and "on facts". For instance, where the Bill states that the applicability of the clause will be determined by the facts, who will determine them? Will they be determined by the courts? Where there is a dispute, or someone takes a trader to court, will the matter be determined wholly by the court or has the Minister any other mechanism whereby one is able to contrast what is alleged to be the price and what is purported to be the real price? Are we simply saying that in all instances this will need to be considered or clarified in the courts? In that case I venture to suggest that the courts will be very busy indeed.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Before the Minister replies, perhaps I may say that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, in a sense took the words out of my mouth. The point that I was going to make—which was referring to our last debate, and is contrary to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton, whose advice we normally accept on matters of this type—is that it now appears from this debate that the whole of Part III really depends on

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what direction the Government are going to take on the code of practice. The whole of Clauses 20, 21 and 22 of Part III depend on what direction the Government are going to take on the code of practice.
Until we know that, it is extremely difficult for us to debate these matters. If we are told that the interpretation of these points must be subject to the code of practice, explained in a code of practice or in some secondary legislation, or whatever, then we shall have to say that we shall have to wait until that occurs. I would argue most firmly, as I argued before, that we need some indication of the way the Government are moving before your Lordships' House takes this Bill on Report.
Lord Beaverbrook: May I deal with these few matters. My noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway raised a point about the code of practice. I was merely pointing out the difficulties that we have indentified in this area. I wish to make no statement as to how we resolve those difficulties at this stage.
There was the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Graham, about the courts being rather busy. Ultimately the courts have to determine the facts in the event of a prosecution, as with any criminal matter. Perhaps I may go back a little further to one of Lord Williams' earlier points, in that the price in relation to any goods is defined at line 40 as:
"the aggregate of the sums required to be paid by a consumer for or otherwise in respect of the supply of the goods or the provision of the services, accommodation or facilities".
Lord Williams of Elvel: Does "sums" under those circumstances mean sums of money plus money represented by vouchers of value?
Lord Beaverbrook: I think that in this instance it would be better if I considered the matter further and wrote to the noble Lord on these points. They are complicated, and I prefer to get them absolutely right for him.
Baroness Phillips: The Minister mentioned price and VAT, or not stated. As I understand the law, and I am subject to his correction, one is duty bound to state the price and the VAT separately.
Lord Beaverbrook: The point I was making was really about hidden extras in general in this case. For instance, VAT is one, as the noble Baroness pointed out; delivery charges are another example. As for the matter of VAT being pointed out separately, it is of course open for any consumer to ask for that information; but as the noble Baroness will know, many prices are shown as inclusive of VAT.
Clause 21 agreed to.
Clause 22 [Application to provision of services and facilities]:
On Question, Whether Clause 22 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: I apologise to the Committee for these numerous clause stand part debates; but I am sure that the Committee will
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understand that there are aspects of this Bill which are extremely difficult to understand and are not properly subject to amendment but to interpretation. I hope that particularly Members on the Front Bench opposite will excluse me if I ask certain questions on interpretation—I hope briefly.
Clause 22(1)(a) first, I fully understand that the provision of credit is subject to this Bill, but that credit has the same meaning as in the Consumer Credit Act. In other words, as I understand it, the charging of bank interest will not be controlled by this Bill. It will not come within the ambit of this Bill. I should be grateful if the Minister can confirm that I am right. It is only banking services that are caught by 22(1)(a).
In other words, if I go along to my bank and ask them to make me a loan and they say, "We will make you a loan at X per cent. over base"—and I would not dream of quoting the figure that the bank might charge me or any other Member in the Committee—and in addition they say, "We will charge you Y as an arrangement fee" (this is the common expression) does the Bill provide that Y is covered within the Bill and that X is not? This would be a strange application of the Bill. I should be grateful if the Minister can enlighten me on that point.
Now to the purchase or sale of foreign currencies. Again referring back to Clause 21, subsection (1)(d) says:
"that a person who in fact has no such expectation—

(i)expects the price to be increased or reduced (whether or not at a particular time or by a particular amount); or

(ii)expects the price, or the price as increased or reduced, to be maintained (whether or not for a particular period)".

Foreign exchange transactions are, of course, the subject of negotiation as to the price and spread, and all sorts of things come into it. Does this mean that if there is an indication that there is an expectation that the price might change—which indeed it would do from minute to minute, and possibly from second to second—that these transactions of a wholesale nature are covered by this Bill? Or is there the same exemption as we had in the Financial Services Act to exempt wholesale money markets and money transactions from this Bill?
The third point I wish to raise is on Clause 22(1)(d) which concerns,
"the provision of a place, other than on a highway, for the parking of a motor vehicle".
Does this mean that, for instance, local authority residents' parking permits and parking meters are not covered by the Bill whereas other parking facilities are?
Lord Beaverbrook: This clause sets out the extent to which Part III applies to services and facilities. Its coverage is wide. All services and facilities fall within Part III subject to a number of exceptions. Services provided to an employer under a contract of employment are not covered, as this is a matter for employment law. Neither are any services or facilities provided by an authorised person, or an appointed representative, in the course of carrying on investment business within the meaning of the Financial Services Act 1986. That Act already protects investors against misleading indications of the price of investments.

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The clause also provides for the sake of clarity that certain particular matters are to be construed as services or facilities; namely, credit, banking, insurance, and incidental services, the purchase or sale of foreign currency, the supply of electricity, and the provision of off-highway caravan and parking. Price indications about credit are covered but credit as such is not. But the prices of services, such as an arrangement fee for a line of credit, are covered by the Bill. Subsection (4) makes particular provision that the rate of exchange of foreign currency is, for the purposes of Part III, a method of determining a price. As regards wholesale money markets, the price indication is not given to consumers, and therefore it is not covered.
The noble Lord, Lord Williams, asked a question about parking meters. Parking meters are not covered. The reference in Clause 22(1)(d) to off-highway parking facilities is included because technically they involve the creation of a licence. Parking meters and other parking spaces do not involve a licence but rather a statutory right for a vehicle to remain subject to conditions including payment of statutory a fee. I hope that that covers the noble Lord's points.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble Lord. I understand that "an authorised person" in this clause means an authorised person under the Financial Services Act. However, as Members opposite know, there are certain exemptions in the Financial Services Act of people who do not need authorisation. When the noble Lord says that these people are not consumers, I have then to ask him what is a consumer? These people may be acting on behalf of a private individual. Indeed we had a long debate on Schedule 1 of the Financial Services Act—I remember it well—about private individuals going into the foreign exchange market via agents. I am slightly confused about the noble Lord's response and I should be grateful if he could look at this more carefully and perhaps write to me if he comes up with any different conclusions.
Lord Beaverbrook: I shall look at the matter and write to the noble Lord on the subject.
Clause 22 agreed to.
5.30 p.m.
Clause 23 [Application to provisions of accommodation etc.]:
Lord Gallacher Lord Gallacher moved Amendment No. 73:
Page 20, line 42, leave out ("his main or only") and insert ("a").
The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 73 arises from Clause 23(2), which we are pleased to see brings within the scope of the Bill the provision of new residential dwellings which are the only or the main residence of the purchaser. That raises the question as to why the limitation should be imposed in the Bill. It seems to us and to those who have written to us about this clause that there are probably other areas where similar protection is at least desirable, if not essential. For example, retirement homes are now very much in evidence.
Sometimes these are purchased well in advance of actual retirement so that the person or family in
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question can put down roots in the area to which they propose to retire. In addition to that, the purchase of holiday homes is now fairly popular. I think we can point to the recognition which holiday homes got for income tax relief in a Finance Act which, if memory serves, was passed about two years ago. I can recall that one had to show that the home was available for letting and had been let for at least 10 weeks in any tax year to qualify for mortgage interest relief on that holiday home.
It seems to us that there is a case for bringing those two categories at least—there may be others—within the scope of Clause 23(2). Therefore it seems appropriate to ask the Government for a view on this. I should have said at the outset that in moving this amendment I was also speaking to Amendment No. 73A with which it is grouped. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: I support the reasoning of the amendment, subject to anything that is said to the contrary as a matter of reasoning by my noble and learned friend the Minister.
The Lord Advocate (Lord Cameron of Lochbroom): I am grateful to the noble Lord for moving this amendment. While we are both agreed on the abuse that we are attempting to deal with in the subsection, the words to which he directs attention in the amendments may prevent the protection extending to the rare circumstances where a misleading price indication is given only to a consumer who does not intend to use the accommodation as his main or only residence. That being so, I am ready to consider the point. I hope in view of that assurance the noble Lord will agree to withdraw these amendments.
Lord Gallacher: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his response and for the offer he has made, which I gladly accept. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 73A not moved.]
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 74:
Page 21, line 12, leave out ("(a) the freehold estate in the dwelling; or (b)") and insert ("in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, the freehold estate in the dwelling or").
The noble Lord said: This is purely a matter of drafting, perhaps with a little—the Committee may think too much—Scottish sensibility. The amendment deals with the definition of "relevant interest" in a dwelling. We start with paragraphs (a) and (b) between lines 10 and 15 which do not have any restriction on their latitude and therefore apparently apply to the whole of Great Britain. Then we have paragraph (c) relating to Scotland. All the amendments seek to do is to say that paragraphs (a) and (b) apply to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the other paragraph applies to Scotland. That seems a better way of putting it. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: Again very briefly and subject to what is said by my noble and learned friend, may I be allowed to support the reasoning of the amendment?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I am only too aware that it is but a short time since an anniversary of Robert Burns' birth. While I do not think this amendment has any substantive effect, and nor is it necessary to enhance the Bill's clarity, I should like to look at it again, though I give no undertaking whatsoever that I shall come back with any alteration. As I believe the noble Lord opposite accepts, it is important from the point of view of Scottish practitioners for there to be a separate paragraph for Scotland. His argument was directed perhaps to a slightly different target because he has what he needs. Obviously without giving an undertaking I shall consider this again, particularly in view of the fact that some support was given by my noble friend.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I am obliged. The difficulty is that as the Bill stands paragraphs (a) and (b) apply to Scotland, as well as paragraph (c). That is unnecessary. But in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 75 not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 23 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I should be grateful if the noble and learned Lord could explain why this is necessary. As I understand from the questions that have been asked and the Minister's replies, what we have here by virtue of the exclusions listed are two classes of consumer. At the end of the day all services are consumed, either once or twice removed. I should be grateful if the Minister could tell us why it is considered necessary to have a clause of this kind. The first two lines read:
"accommodation or facilities shall not include references to accommodation or facilities provided by means of the creation or disposal of an interest in land, except where".
The Minister may say to me that I should have understood the purpose of the clause earlier than the Committee stage. But the Committee stage of a Bill is where one asks questions such as this. Why is it felt necessary that this aspect needs to be caught by the provisions of the Bill? I should be grateful if the Minister would spend a little time (not too long, of course) on the genesis of this. I understand why many interests have felt it necessary to plead with the Minister and his colleagues over the years as to why their own interests should be included. I should genuinely like to ask what has been the pressure for this kind of clause, worded in this way, being put into the Bill.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I shall be happy to attempt to satisfy the noble Lord's curiosity. In Clause 20 one starts off with a general reference to accommodation and facilities, but the purpose of Clause 23 is to deal with the extent to which this part applies to real property; that is, the provision of accommodation which involves the creation or the transfer of an interest in land.
I think the noble Lord will have understood from the debate we have just had on his noble friend's amendment that the application in that circumstance
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is only to the area of what are called new homes, to deal with a particular abuse that arises there. It is for that reason that Clause 23 commences in the way it does. Subsection (2) is important in defining the particular area to which this clause will apply in relation to real property. I think that becomes clear when one considers the terms of subsection (3), and particularly the definition in subsection (4). I hope that what I have said is of some assistance to the noble Lord regarding the intention behind this clause as against the general reference to accommodation in Clause 20.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I am sorry to be "thick". I can hear what the Minister says, but my question was: why should these exclusions be thought necessary? If the exclusions cover consumers at one level or another, why are they not given the protection of the clause and the Bill?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: The abuse to which I referred—and perhaps I should have dealt with it earlier—is that in relation to new homes, or what I might term starter homes. These were being increasingly marketed in much the same way as any other product and typically there were offers made "free" in relation to such homes.
However, there were also a number of other considerations as to why it should not be extended. The sellers of what I might term "secondhand homes" rather than new homes are private individuals. They will not generally be in business and therefore would not be caught by these provisions. They would of course apply to their estate agents, who would become liable in respect of the actions of their clients over which they have no control. I do not think that that would be fair, as perhaps the noble Lord would accept.
The general character, furthermore, of a secondhand house purchase is quite different from the purchase of a new house. It proceeds by negotiation, during which there will usually be ample opportunity for a prospective buyer to establish all the circumstances which would bear upon the initial price indication. In that respect, again, there is a substantial difference between a new house and a secondhand house.
The noble Lord might also ask: why does it not apply to tenancies, because that is leasehold property? Again, there is a great shortage of private rented accommodation, and the Government have been concerned to take steps to encourage an increase in supply. But that will not be achieved by imposing unnecessary regulation.
The potential mischiefs we are concerned to remedy in this Bill are not really relevant to the rented sector and, as the noble Lord knows, there is already legislation to protect the general interests of tenants. It is for that reason that the clause is very carefully defined to deal with one aspect of what I might call the property market and house purchase; namely, that of new houses and in particular the abuse to which I made specific reference.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, but the more he goes on,

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the more questions he raises in my mind. It is not his fault: it is simply because I am curious. If what the noble and learned Lord is saying is that he and his advisers noted a particular manifestation whereby the consumer needed protection—that is the consumer of new homes and particularly starter homes—the point I start from is that all consumers need protection if they are at risk from people trying to take advantage of them. For instance, if we look at the top of page 21 a new home,
"means any building or part of a building which has been constructed or adapted to be occupied as a person's main or only residence".
Does that mean to say that if the new home is a person's second home or his third home, he then diminishes the quality of the protection of the law from having been induced, misled or in some way invited to part with his money? What I am trying to get at is: why is the variation in the quality of protection dependent upon whether it is a young person, an old person, a starter home or a second home?
I can appreciate that new first-time buyers may be more vulnerable and may need more protection, sometimes from themselves, because they might be eager to buy and thereby get caught. I still want to know why that person needs the protection of the law as opposed to a person who, for very good reasons, in 1987 may be buying a new home which is not a first home or indeed an only home.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I think, with respect, that the noble Lord may have misunderstood my definition of a new home. It is of course that in the Bill. It is a new dwelling, which means any building as referred to in subsection (4). The noble Lord has referred to the words "main or only" and that point was dealt with during the debate we had as a consequence of his noble friend's amendment. I am going to look at that.
I think I have made clear that the reason for the differentiation is that in this clause we are talking about something that has been constructed and is put on the market for the first time, as against something which has already been occupied. I have indicated the distinction that arises because, in general terms, it is put on the market by a private individual. If such private individuals operate through estate agents the latter are simply acting as the agents for their clients. The occupiers are not in business in the same way as are those who are struck at in this Bill—the traders, if I may use the term rather loosely. It is for that reason that we make the distinction that we do.
Lord Graham, of Edmonton: I am most grateful.
Clause 23 agreed to.
Clause 24 [Defences]:
[Amendment No. 76 not moved.]
Lord Gallacher Lord Gallacher moved Amendment No. 77:
Page 22, line 8, leave out ("for the most part").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is concerned with Clause 24, and that clause is concerned with defences for publishers of catalogues and advertisements. As I am sure the Committee will know, this is a growth area, particularly since the
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advent of free newspapers and similar advertising matter. Undoubtedly the growth of this material in addition to that which is long established by way of advertising, has a significant influence on the market and therefore it must be of considerable importance to consumers who may be influenced by it.
One takes Clause 24 as a whole. It is certainly drawn very widely, and one accepts that in the circumstances to which the clause addresses itself, width is very necessary. However, reading the various subsections, one begins to feel that the cumulative effect of this clause is to give little or no protection, and indeed to exonerate completely the advertiser from any responsibility for what may or may not appear in his advertisements.
For example, when we come to subsection (4) (d) we get the words "for the most part" and, as I said, on reading the clause as a whole it seemed to us that it might be desirable slightly to narrow the width of exemption offered by Clause 24. The purpose of the amendment is to achieve just that. The narrowing of the clause in the minor way suggested in the amendment would constitute an additional defence for consumers and therefore it is worthy of consideration.
When I was thinking about what one might say further in support of this amendment I chanced upon a report in my local paper only last week that a vacancy advertised in a Job centre led a young woman into prostitution at a massage parlour. So a case was brought to court and subsequently sent for trial on that basis. I am happy to assure the Committee that so far as the young lady is concerned the case had a fairly happy ending, because it is also reported that she is now pursuing successfully a career in the Civil Service.
Although it may be that the point I am raising here belongs properly within the legislation which the Government may find it necessary to introduce at a later date to deal with the European Convention directive on unfair and misleading advertising, it seems to me that at this stage in our deliberations we should pause and ask ourselves whether we are perhaps giving excessive exemption to the advertising industry in this important area. The purpose of the amendment is to give the Government an opportunity of saying why in Clause 24, in general, the exemption is as wide as it is and why the modest restriction proposed by Amendment No. 77 should not be accepted. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: I wonder whether my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate could possibly give further consideration to this point on the grounds of practicability, because we are talking about a defence to a criminal charge under Clause 21 and I ask the Committee to bear in mind that a case is being tried by a jury on indictment, as is proposed. I know not—and I am in the hands of my noble and learned friend who has greater experience than I—of any other statutory defence to a criminal charge which says, "For the most part, I did this". If there is some precedent for this sort of defence, so be it, but I have never come across it and it seems to me on analysis rather absurd and unworkable. If my noble and learned friend could just have a look at this one, I for my part would be very grateful.
Lord Beaverbrook: If the noble Lord's amendment were adopted, it would impose a very heavy and, I believe, unreasonable burden on traders who give the sort of price indications covered by this defence. The scope of the defence is already very narrow. It is intended to deal with the situation where manufacturers advertise the price at which their goods are available in the shops. Motor manufacturers, for example, often advertise the prices they have recommended to dealers to charge. It is available only when the alleged offence relates to an indication of a price which has been recommended to all those from whom the goods, services, accommodation or facilities are indicated as being available; the indication was misleading only because someone failed to follow the recommendation; and it was nevertheless reasonable for the person who both gave the indication and made the recommendation to assume that his recommendation was generally being followed.
This amendment creates, in my view, an unduly onerous condition in circumstances where it must be remembered that the indication is not given at the point of sale and the person who gave the indication is not involved in the transaction with the consumer. For that reason I am unable to accept the noble Lord's amendment.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: I wonder whether my noble friend might conceivably reconsider, because he read from a brief which was written by somebody who had not heard any of the argument. We can all be wrong. If the point I made is totally misconceived, it would be nice to have a reasoned riposte before being turned down out of hand.
Lord Mottistone: In many cases I would sympathise with my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway, but in this case I think what my noble friend on the Front Bench said was perfectly straightforward. I found it very easy to understand and I do not see why he should go any further.
Lord Beaverbrook: I am most grateful to my noble friend. The brief I have is intended to set out very clearly the reason why we feel that we cannot accept this amendment. But of course we always listen to whatever is said in your Lordships' House and will read what my noble friend Lord Campbell has said. But I have set out our case for being unable to accept this amendment.
Lord Gallacher: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply to this amendment. In particular, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, for his support. Like him, on first hearing I thought the reply to the amendment was somewhat terse. The mere mention of motor manufacturers' recommended prices made me almost wish that I was in another place. Nevertheless, I am grateful that the assurance was given that there will be some further consideration of it. Although we are not expecting that consideration to take a very tangible form at Report stage, I am nevertheless grateful to the Minister for what he has said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 [Code of practice]:
Lord Gallacher Lord Gallacher moved Amendment No. 78:
Page 22, line 19, leave out from ("issued") to end of line and insert ("by the Secretary of State").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is one which has occasioned considerable discussion on this side of the Committee because it seems to us that Clause 25(1) is rather dangerously wide in that it would allow not merely the Secretary of State to approve a code of practice but "another person" for the purpose of the points which are contained in the remainder of the clause.
I do not want to reopen the discussion which we had at the beginning of this Committee stage on the status of the code of practice. But whatever its status, whether it has great legal status in the ultimate or whether it is merely an advisory document for retailers, it seems to us to be very undesirable that any person other than the Secretary of State should be allowed to approve codes of practice. That would apply even if the Director General of Fair Trading and the Secretary of State had a sight of the code.
We feel that this clause as it now stands is far too wide. It could give rise to all manner of abuses. Indeed, even where abuse did not take place the mere existence of codes devised by persons other than the Secretary of State could considerably mislead consumers. That, too, seems to us to be contrary to the spirit and intent of the Bill. For this reason, we feel that Amendment No. 78 which we are proposing is well worth consideration and I hope that the Government will be able to accept it. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: Irrespective as to whether contravention of the code is used as an aid to conviction, irrespective as to whether compliance with the code affords a statutory defence, and irrespective as to whether the third type of code, having no legal efficacy, were to be introduced, surely it would be within the proper remit of the Secretary of State himself, in an important area such as this—if the codes have legal efficacy—to be responsible for introducing the code.
Lord Mottistone: Surely we are talking here about the Secretary of State approving a code issued possibly by somebody else. The noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, earlier on in this general debate was talking about this tripartite-issued concordat, as it was described at one stage. Suppose that was accepted by the Government and was prepared and perhaps issued by the three parties concerned. The Secretary of State might then approve it. Is that not the circumstance in which the Bill as we now have it would be relevant? Is it necessary to have this change, since the Secretary of State does the final approving as the Bill is now written? It is only the issuing of such a document which is under question.
6 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, that this amendment, dealing as it does with codes, stands on its own irrespective of the discussions of the Committee earlier today. I can

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understand some of the concern which I believe has prompted the amendment.
Rather like my noble friend Lord Mottistone, I think that the amendment is misplaced because the power for the Secretary of State to approve codes issued by other persons does not mean that anyone can approve a statutory code of practice. As my noble friend has said, any code must be approved by the Secretary of State. Should he wish to approve a code issued by someone else, it will be subject to the same careful consideration as that which he would give a code of his own.
The Bill requires that any code be the subject of consultation with the Director General of Fair Trading. He has a special interest in codes of practice. It would also be the subject of consultation with other appropriate persons. Having cleared those hurdles, the Bill then requires the order approving the code to be laid before Parliament, thus once again providing an opportunity for consideration by both Houses.
Perhaps I should attempt to assure the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, of our plans. We have no plans to approve more than the code drawn up by my department, and that code has been placed in the Library. Whatever may happen to that code, the same principle applies. However, a case may emerge for having a code relating to a specific sector, in which case a trade associations' code might be suitable for approval. Again it may be submitted to the Secretary of State, he may approve it and it may, as I have described, come before both Houses of Parliament. Therefore, there is no great opportunity for excess here.
If the Committee passes the amendment, I believe that it will deprive the Bill of a really useful tool for dealing with particular matters which might arise. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, will be reassured as regards his points and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: having heard the explanation given by my noble friend, may I say that I am, for my part, entirely satisfied with that.
Lord Gallacher: I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for the remarks that he has made in connection with this amendment. I could not help smiling to myself when he spoke of the time it will take to redraft this code, on the assumption that redrafting is necessary. We were all very lenient with him. Now we find that in certain circumstances—though not in these circumstances—codes can be drawn up by other people, submitted to the Director General of Fair Trading and the Secretary of State and, subject to parliamentary approval, they are A1.
If time is of the essence, perhaps I may say without disrespect to the Department of Trade and Industry that the three members of the concordat could quickly put together a code which I think would satisfy them, although it might not satisify the Secretary of State. We might then find ourselves able to do our proper duty as a revising Chamber at Report stage and send the Bill to the other place in a form that the Committee would feel satisfied with and which would not put them in the unenviable position of waving goodbye knowing that we disliked intensely a major part of the Bill.
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I say that because it seems to me to be justified on the basis of the reply which the Secretary of State made to me. However, in the light of what he has said and in view of the safeguards which he says are firmly built into this particular clause, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: Before the noble Lord sits down, he tempts me and I cannot resist that temptation. When he speaks about speed, he will recall that when I spoke earlier I said that the document of the concordat would have to be discussed with a wide range of people who have not had the opportunity of putting their views on the paper of the concordat. Therefore, I am not too sure that the analogy which the noble Lord draws is entirely fair.
Baroness Phillips: Before my noble friend replies, I should say to the Minister that, as regards speed, the manufacturers of small electrical goods drew up a voluntary code of practice (and an excellent one) which was submitted to the Office of Fair Trading about 18 months ago, as I recall. They have been operating that code of practice in any case. However, they cannot move at all. My experience of the department is that it is incredibly slow and cumbersome. Therefore, how they can be so speedy over something else is a puzzle. I hope that this Bill means that they will speed up their efforts as regards some of the people who have been trying to do the right thing and who only need the blessing of the Government.
Lord Gallacher: I thank the noble Lord the Minister for his further clarification of the attitude of the Government to the amendment. I can only say that if this wide range of additional consultation is necessary in respect of the code which is occupying our prime attention then much the same considerations would apply to any code because the mere fact that it came from the trade association or a body equally representative of the sector would not mean that all the constituents of that sector had played a part in the formulation of the code. Neither would it mean that other parties who may be interested or affected by it would take a similar view. That leads me to think that the wording of the clause as it stands would have been improved by the acceptance of the amendment proposed. Nevertheless, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Campbell of Alloway Lord Campbell of Alloway had given notice of his intention to move Amendments Nos. 79 and 89:
Page 22, line 21, leave out ("giving practical guidance with respect to").
Page 22, line 22, leave out ("section 20") and insert ("sections 20 and 24").
The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 79 is grouped with Amendment No. 80. Both amendments were moved for clarification and are probing amendments. In view of the most helpful concession made by my noble friend the Minister to reconsider the whole position in Clause 20(4) and to take on board the representations and points made in debate of the status of the code, there is absolutely no object

1499
in detaining the Committee further with the matter. These amendments have been overtaken by events. The only point which arises is the one to which I referred, in that under Clause 25(1) (b) we have perhaps an ideal type of trigger to introduce the third type of code which is the one of mere recommendation having no legal effect. I shall therefore not move these amendments.
[Amendments Nos. 79 and 80 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 81 to 84 not moved.]
Clause 25 agreed to.
Clause 26 [Power to make regulations]:
Lord Gallacher Lord Gallacher moved Amendment No. 84A:
Page 23, line 32, leave out ("annulment") and insert ("approval").
The noble Lord said: With the leave of the Committee, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 84B.
Clause 26 is concerned with the power to make regulations. As the clause now stands, the power,
"shall be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament".
As we are dealing here with regulations, and as we are quite certain from what was said earlier in this stage of the Committee's proceedings that the regulatory procedure is likely to be used quite significantly under this clause, it is our opinion that those regulations ought to be subject to the affirmative procedure in your Lordships' House. That is the purpose of the amendment.
We believe that the negative procedure does not adequately reflect the importance of regulations which may be quite far reaching. They may have considerable significance and of course they have legal force. In these circumstances we believe that the affirmative procedure is fully justified. It may be argued that the affirmative procedure should be used sparingly. Indeed we are not advocating that that principle should be departed from. But, wearing another hat, I sometimes assist a colleague from this side of the House with agricultural matters. I am always quite amazed at the extent to which the affirmative procedure is necessary over a wide range of agricultural affairs, some of them not nearly as potentially significant as the regulations which may be made under this Part of the Bill.
In those circumstances, and in order that Parliament may know fully what is being done and may have the opportunity to approve what it is proposed will be done, we wish to bring the affirmative procedure into the Bill as concerns the making of regulations. That is the purpose of Amendments Nos. 84A and 84B. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: I intervene briefly to support the amendments. Whatever happens, the code of practice will have legal efficacy akin to that of a statutory defence under Clause 24. In those circumstances it is a matter for Parliament to consider and discuss by affirmative resolution before any such form of law is introduced. I should have thought that
1500
my noble friend the Minister might well accept this. As I understand it, this is the wish of the Retail Consortium and it seems to me to be an entirely reasonable wish. I wonder whether my noble friend will consider it without giving any form of commitment.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: The negative resolution procedure is quite appropriate for regulations which may be made under the powers conferred in this clause. There are a number of precedents. Indeed one of the precursors of this Bill, the Price Marking of Bargain Offers Order, was itself made under that procedure. The same applies to regulations made under the Trade Descriptions Act, the Fair Trading Act and the Consumer Credit Act. All these provisions may impose requirements contravention of which will be an offence.
In any event the wide-ranging consultations that are required by the Bill will have to take place before any regulations can be introduced. The wishes to which my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway referred were taken rather out of the context of all that the Retail Consortium proposed in its package. I should not like to separate one from the other, particularly having offered to go into these consultations.
I think it is unnecessary to require Parliament to debate regulations when demands on its time are already excessive. I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, said about using the affirmative procedure sparingly. There may well be particular significance in the matters we are discussing but with the precedents I have quoted I do not think they are sufficiently significant for us to depart from what has proved to be an adequate practice.
If there are strong feelings about certain draft regulations there may be an opportunity for debate if arrangements can be made with the business managers. I do not think that there is a lack of opportunity for Parliament to discuss regulations. I am not persuaded that any change in the procedure to which we are now accustomed and which we are able to accept is warranted in this Bill.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I hope that the noble Lord the Minister is taking our amendment as seriously as it warrants. The clause as presently drafted states:
"The Secretary of State may…by regulations make provision"—
I am missing out certain words which seem to me not to be relevant—
"(a) for the purpose of regulating the circumstances and manner in which any person in the course of any business of his—

(i)gives any indication as to the price at which any goods, services, accommodation or facilities will be or are available or have been supplied or provided; or

(ii)indicates any other matter in respect of which any such indication may be misleading".

In other words, this clause gives to the Secretary of State power to amend the Bill by redefining in certain circumstances what may or may not be a price and what may or may not be misleading. Under those circumstances my noble friend is perfectly justified in asking that if this is to be an effective amendment to the Bill it should come before your Lordships' House before it is passed in draft.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I take all the amendments that are put down by noble Lords opposite with the seriousness they deserve. This amendment is a serious matter. Of course it is a serious matter. The noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, has ensured that the Committee recognises the seriousness of it. But I have to say that the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, that the Secretary of State can, of his own volition, amend the Bill is wrong. He has to consult and he has then to lay regulations which are subject to the approval of both Houses of Parliament.
Parliament can refuse to accept those regulations, although it would be very unusual. The noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition may recall that about five or six years ago regulations that were placed before your Lordships had to be withdrawn because there was a technical error. They were reintroduced two or three days later but had to be withdrawn again for another reason. Only on the third occasion, after noble Lords had drawn the Government's attention to these matters, was the House prepared to accept the regulations. That is just a modest demonstration of the fact that both Houses of Parliament have authority and have the power to accept or reject regulations.
Lord Mottistone: Perhaps I may supplement what my noble friend has said. In my experience, on the two or three occasions when I have prayed against a negative order I have got a better debate going at a better time of day than when we have debated an affirmative order. We have had long arguments about this, and I know it affects the status, but, as for the practicality of stopping the Government doing something that looks nasty, the negative procedure is just as good and I think in some ways better.
Lord Gallacher: I thank the noble Lord the Minister for the reply he has made. I have taken very careful note of all that he has had to say. However, on this side of the Committee we feel that the affirmative procedure is appropriate in these circumstances, particularly having regard to the additional remarks made by my noble friend Lord Williams of Elvel when he drew attention to Clause 26(1) of the Bill. I think that the affirmative procedure gives the House the opportunity that it needs and, if an order has passed the other place, this House has a code of conduct of its own in regard to these matters which I am happy to say is strictly observed. Nevertheless, even within the code there is an opportunity for discussion, for comment and for the passing of opinions upon the content of the regulation, as well as its validity and, indeed, its necessity.
In all those circumstances, I think we should test the opinion of the Committee on this. I beg to move.
6.22 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 84A) shall be agreed to.
Their Lordships divided: Contents 46; Not-Contents, 84.

DIVISION NO. 1

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Ardwick, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Bonham Carter, L.

Bottomley, L.

Longford, E.

Brockway, L.

Monson, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Morton of Shuna, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Nicol, B.

Northfield, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Phillips, B.

David, B. [Teller]

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Dean of Beswick, L.

Diamond, L.

Robson of Kiddington, B.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Seear, B.

Ennals, L.

Shackleton, L.

Fitt, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Gallacher, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Tordoff, L.

Hampton, L.

Underhill, L.

Hanworth, V.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Hooson, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

White, B.

Jeger, B.

Williams of Elvel, L.

John-Mackie, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Kennet, L.

Ypres, E.

Kilbracken, L.

NOT CONTENTS

Aldenham, L.

Hesketh, L.

Aldington, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Hooper, B.

Ampthill, L.

Killearn, L.

Auckland, L.

Lane-Fox, B.

Bauer, L.

Lawrence, L.

Beaverbrook, L.

Layton, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Belstead, L.

Long, V.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Lyell, L.

Broadbridge, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Marshall of Leeds, L.

Bruce-Gardyne, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Butterworth, L.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Merrivale, L.

Mersey, V.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Milverton, L.

Carnock, L.

Molson, L.

Cathcart, E.

Mottistone, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Mountevans,L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Munster, E.

Cowley, E.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Craigavon, V.

Newall, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Norfolk, D.

Dacre of Glanton, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Davidson, V. [Teller]

Renton, L.

De La Warr, E.

Renwick, L.

Denham, L. [Teller]

Russell of Liverpool, L.

Derwent, L.

St. Davids, V.

Digby, L.

Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.

Dormer, L.

Sandford, L.

Dundee, E.

Selkirk, E.

Eden of Winton, L.

Shrewsbury, E.

Elles, B.

Skelmersdale, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Somers, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Ferrier, L.

Sudeley, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Teynham, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Thurlow, L.

Glanusk, L.

Trumpington, B.

Halsbury, E.

Ward of Witley, V.

Hardinge of Penshurst, L.

Whitelaw, V.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
6.31 p.m.
[Amendment No. 84B not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 26 shall stand part of the Bill?
Baroness Burton of Coventry: I should like to raise two separate matters on Clause 26. At the moment I am merely seeking information, so I have not put down an amendment on these two points, but I gave notice to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that I would be raising them.
The Committee will be aware that for some considerable time I have been concerned about the position on the resale of gas and electricity to tenants by landlords with secondary meters. The Committee will know that the maximum permissible resale price for a therm of gas is now controlled by the Director-General of Gas Supply and landlords must not charge more than that figure. At present tenants who believe that they are being overcharged have to take civil action against their landlord, which most are unwilling to do.
The Gas Consumers Council feels that a more effective measure is needed to prevent overcharging. The council wrote to me stating that both during the House of Lords' debate on the Queen's Speech and on the Second Reading of the Consumer Protection Bill the Government gave assurances about their intention to introduce under Clause 26 of the Bill appropriate regulations on the resale of fuel. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas and I well remember those discussions and I appreciate the help he gave in getting us to the stage that we have now reached.
The council welcomed these assurances and the requirement for landlords who resell gas or electricity to provide their tenants with itemised accounts stating the number of units consumed and the statutory maximum price. While this should be sufficient to deter unscrupulous or ignorant landlords from overcharging, the council feels that action against landlords who fail to provide an itemised bill or who give a false price should not depend on civil action by the tenant. Consequently, the council wishes to see specific mention of regulations regarding the resale of gas and electricity included in the Bill itself. The council also wishes to be consulted about any draft regulations produced.
In view of the importance accorded to the Gas Consumers Council by the Government following the privatisation of the industry, I believe that its views should be taken into account. I should be glad to have the Minister's comments. Perhaps we may return to this matter on Report.
The other matter that I wish to raise is somewhat different. I note what the Government said about Clause 26 at Paragraph 32 in their layman's guide to the Bill. I should be glad if the Minister could clear up a matter that has been brought to my attention and which may or may not be correct. It puzzles me and I should like to have an answer. I have been informed that for some time the Department of Trade and Industry has been discussing with interested parties detailed provisions for a price indications code which would provide a number of rules expressed in plain, easily understood language which would help traders to avoid making misleading claims about prices.
1504
The courts would be entitled to take these rules into account in determining whether a particular claim is misleading but a breach of the rules would not be conclusive evidence of an offence; and traders would have a good defence if they could show that they had followed the code in making a price claim. According to my information this appeared to everyone concerned in those discussions to be a good practicable solution to a particularly tricky area of trade.
My indignant—or perhaps I should say perplexed—informant asked me what we find in this Consumer Protection Bill. He declares that we find a substantial and, in places, obscurely drafted Clause 21 setting out the respects in which a price indication may be misleading. Whether or not a claim is misleading is obviously a question of fact, and the proposed code was advanced on the basis that it would help in determining such questions. Why then, my informant asked, do we want Clause 21 at all? It opens the problem of legal interpretations on what may be misleading and in practice may impede the courts when they take into account the code's provisions.
It seems to me that my informant was right in asking: what do we find in Clause 25? We have already mentioned today that the Secretary of State does not have to approve a code at all. He may do so if he chooses, and in the light of Clause 21 the courts could rule on misleading price indications without the help of a code. Probably all this needs a lawyer to unravel it, and I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has one sitting next to him now. I raise this matter because I respect the knowledge and experience of my informant and because I, and doubtless the Committee, will welcome the Government's response to two questions.
First, is it correct that in the light of Clause 21 the courts could rule on misleading price indications without the help of a code? Do the Government consider this as a possible option? Secondly, is it the intention of the Government to approve a price indications code?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: By way of introduction perhaps I may say that Clause 26 gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations governing the manner and circumstances in which price indications or any associated information are given by a person in the course of any business of his. Regulations may also make provision for the enforcement of Clause 20 or of any regulations made under this clause.
The purpose of the regulation-making power is to enable specific and detailed requirements to be imposed in any area where this proves to be necessary. For example, it was found that in several sectors recommended retail prices were well out of line with market prices; and the bargain offers order imposed a ban on comparisons with recommended retail prices in the relevant sectors. We intend to use the powers given by the clause to retain those bans.
I accept—and I think the noble Baroness ought to be reasonably pleased—that the regulation-making power is a wide and a general one. Subsection (2) lists certain specific matters for which the regulations may provide. They may prohibit reference to specified matters in a price indication. They may require that a price indication be accompanied by a specified

1505
explanation or additional information. The power may be used to prohibit the use of disclaimers or to provide that expressions used in a price indication shall be construed in a specific way for the purposes of Part III. They may make contravention of the regulations an offence and provide for the mode of trial and penalties; and they may apply to an offence created by the regulations any provisions of the Bill relating to a criminal offence. That list is not exhaustive but it gives the noble Baroness an indication of our thinking in this area.
I turn to one of the specific points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, concerning the resale of gas. Let me say here and now that I am sure the Committee is appreciative of the efforts of the Gas Consumers' Council and indeed of all the consumer councils. I think that we are all aware of the pressure that they have brought to bear in relation to the price of gas.
We intend to make regulations under Part III of the Bill to require landlords who resell gas and electricity to give itemised bills to their tenants stating the number of units consumed and the statutory maximum price. If there are any other matters the noble Baroness wishes us to consider in regard to that point I am sure that she will make them known to us.
Perhaps I may add one small observation in regard to short term holiday flats or caravans. I accept that in the case of a short-term holiday flatlet or caravan, it could be burdensome to provide individual bills. On the other hand, we have to balance that against a reasonable expectation that the visitor should know exactly how much he is being charged for any gas or electricity that he uses. It may be preferable in those circumstances if regulations were to require a statement of the charges for gas or electricity to be made to the guest on arrival, or perhaps declared by means of a notice on the meter itself. At this stage, I cannot say with total certainty exactly what form the regulations will take but I think that I have given a clear enough indication of the way in which we are moving.
The noble Baroness gave me notice that she intended to raise the question of a price indicators code. In fact, I think that her correspondent was referring to the code of practice. Clause 20 is necessary to set out the basic general offence and the courts must look at Clause 21 when deciding whether a price is misleading. How they use the code will depend, of course, on its status. These are matters that we have put aside for the moment. I think it is clear that we all agree—and certainly the concordat agreed—that we need a code. It is its status that is at issue.
I believe that the noble Baroness's informant has perhaps misunderstood. Some people have called this a code of practice; some people have called it a guide. All sorts of names have been attached to it. I can see that there may have been confusion. If, however, the noble Baroness's informant has a different view, I hope that she will get in touch with me, when I shall try to answer her points. However, that is what I believe has happened in this case.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: I am most grateful to the Minister and I should like to study what he has said. I think, however, that paragraph 32 in the
1506
layman's guide speaks quite definitely of price indications as well as the code. I do not believe my correspondent was mistaken and I shall take the opportunity of writing to the Minister. However, I thank him for what he has said.
Clause 26 agreed to.
6.45 p.m.
Clause 27 [Enforcement.]
Baroness Robson of Kiddington Baroness Robson of Kiddington moved Amendment No. 85:
Page 23, line 46, leave out subsections (2), (3) and (4).
The noble Baroness said: This is an amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Ezra who is very sorry that he is unable to be here owing to a long-standing previous engagement. It is a probing amendment, tabled in the hope that the Minister will be able to put our minds at rest. We are concerned about the wording of subsection (2) (a). That refers to the power of the Secretary of State by regulations to:
"wholly or partly transfer any duty imposed by subsection (1) above on a weights and measures authority or a district council in Northern Ireland to such other person"
whereas subsection (4) refers to:
"or any person".
We feel that the wording is much too loose, not specific enough. The Minister may remember that my noble friend Lord Ezra raised this subject at Second Reading. The Minister very kindly replied, saying among other things:
"This subsection is in fact in the existing 1978 Consumer Safety Act". [Official Report, 8/12/86; col. 1059.]
I am sure it is, but the fact that it is in the 1978 Consumer Safety Act does not mean that we have to reproduce in this new Consumer Protection Bill something that is not very precise.
The Minister also attempted to reassure us that the transfer of responsibilities for specific regulations would be to such bodies as the Health and Safety Executive. I can see why, on occasions, the Health and Safety Executive would be the appropriate body to enforce the regulations, but I believe that it is perfectly possible for the Government to lay down in the Bill itself the bodies that might enforce the regulations.
We are concerned about the words "any other person" or "such other person" which in our view open the floodgate. We think that the wording should be much more specific. I wonder whether the Minister can assure the Committee of the possibility of such amendment to the clause.
Baroness Nicol: We support the spirit behind this amendment. I shall refer to the wording a little later. The Association of County Councils is concerned about the wording of the Bill as it stands and is anxious that it should be changed and this provision removed. We agree with most of the arguments put by the noble Baroness. We feel that if the Government mean the Health and Safety Executive, or any other bodies, they should say so in the Bill.
We strongly support the intention of the amendment, but, looking at the wording, I have to say that subsection (4) will need to remain because it

1507
excludes Scotland from the provision. We also feel that there should be a facility to allow the Secretary of State to make regulations. That is removed by this amendment. Having said that, with improved wording, we support the intention of the amendment.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Robson of Kiddington, for moving the amendment which she describes as a probing amendment. I am of course glad to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, said in general support, although I think that she may like to go a little further than the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, indicated.
The noble Baroness reminded the Committee of what I said earlier when the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, raised the matter. It is a little difficult for me to do much more than pad out what I said at that time. In essence, that said it all.
I can understand that some local authority associations may be unhappy about the power. Indeed they have expressed a certain amount of unhappiness about the power already conferred by Section 5(2) of the Consumer Safety Act 1978. I do not know why that should be, because the power under that Act has not been used to date. Nevertheless, it exists.
One can understand that arguments may be produced that the power to transfer enforcement duty to persons other than what I would call local weights and measures authorities—I put it that way because they have so many different names in different areas, but I think Members of the Committee understand to whom I refer—is unnecessary and inappropriate. However, we think that the power is necessary. Although it is not a new power and, as I suggested, it has not been used, we feel it is necessary to keep it.
The Government have no intention of transferring this enforcement duty wholesale either to central government or to some other body. The power is there for use in exceptional cases. It might be appropriate in respect of goods primarily used at work but also available to consumers or where safety regulations require inspection at factory level.
In some instances the Health and Safety Executive may be the most appropriate enforcement agency in these areas. If one takes the case of medical products other than controlled drugs, which fall within the scope of the safety regulation power, the Secretary of State may be the most appropriate enforcement authority.
It is not practical to require us to list other bodies to which the powers may be transferred. It would be difficult to ensure at this stage that such a list is complete or would even remain complete. We may be able to foresee this evening or next week a role in specialist areas such as I have suggested for the Health and Safety Executive, but I do not think that we can be totally sure about others. With fast-changing technologies it may be that we have to go to a body that is respected and regarded as having particular and specific expertise, a body that may not yet have been formed.
Since the passing of the Consumer Safety Act 1978—and here we are eight or nine years on—there
1508
has been no demonstration that this power has opened a gate too wide—I believe that was the expression used by the noble Baroness—and so we should like to keep it.
I wish to touch on the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, about Scotland. I am somewhat diffident in doing this when I see the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, sitting beside the noble Baroness. We do not believe that the deletion of Clause 27(4) will enable weights and measures authorities to bring proceedings. They do not generally have these powers. Subsection (4) is for the avoidance of doubt only. Nor do I think it desirable that the weights and measures authorities should have these powers. I am advised that the Procurator-fiscal is the prosecuting authority in Scotland, and we see no advantage in bypassing him.
Having replied to what the noble Baroness asked me, I ask her to withdraw the amendment on the understanding that I take the point that she has raised.
Baroness Robson of Kiddington: I thank the noble Lord very much for his long and full reply. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, for her support of the amendment.
I said in introducing it that it was a probing amendment to discuss one specific aspect of the enforcement regulations. I heard with interest what the Minister said. I shall take this away and reconsider it. After discussion with my noble friend Lord Ezra, I may bring it back at a future date. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clauses 28 and 29 agreed to.
Clause 30 [Provisions supplemental to s. 29]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 86:
Page 27, line 3, leave out from ("liable") to end of line 4 and insert—

("(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum; or

(b) on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine or to both.")

The noble Lord said: The amendment deals with the sanctions available against a person who pretends to be an officer of an enforcement authority under Clause 30(5). It relates also to a pretence under Clause 29. Clause 29 provides the powers for authorised persons to enter premises other than a residence and to obtain certain records. Clause 30 authorises officers to seize goods and records and to act on a warrant. The only penalty provided by the Bill for a person who engages in one of these activities while pretending to be an enforcement officer is a summary charge and a level 5 fine.
In Clause 38 one finds the penalties that may be imposed on an enforcement officer who goes wrong. Under subsection (5) he may be liable:
"on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum;
"on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine or to both".
Looking at the earlier part of Clause 38, one sees what he may be up to. He can disclose information that he has obtained, he can find out secret manufacturing processes and disclose that information and he can disclose anything which was obtained by him in any activity under Part IV.
As I said on Second Reading—and I think this is one of the questions about which the Minister said he would write to me, but it was not included in the answer that I received on the first day of Committee—it seems strange to me that somebody who pretends to be an officer and in this way obtains a secret manufacturing process is liable to a less severe penalty than an authorised officer who discloses information. The one seems just as dishonest as the other.
One can visualise circumstances where it is a serious matter for the possessor of the records, information or process if someone pretending to be a trading standards officer goes in and whips away his records and uses them in competition with or to destroy his business in some way. Why should not the penalty be the same for both? That is the purpose of my amendment. I beg to move.
7 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: First, I express my sorrow and tender my apologies to the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, for any omission in the correspondence we have had since the Bill came to this place. I should not want him to go without the benefit of our view on these matters.
As the noble Lord says, Clause 30(5) makes it an offence to impersonate an enforcement officer. He contrasts that with Clause 38(5). I suggest that that is different, because it would be an abuse of a position of trust for an enforcement officer to disclose confidential information. I think I understand the thinking behind the amendment. The noble Lord has put it clearly. I do not see the necessity for such a provision when the courts and prisons are already overstretched.
I am sure that the impersonation of the enforcement officers will be extremely rare. I ask myself, rather than the noble Lord, what motive would incite someone to act in such a way. I do not deny that such motives may exist, nor do I seek to suggest that impersonation will never occur, but so far as I am aware the penalties contained in the Consumer Safety Act 1978 have not proved to be inadequate. I do not therefore see that there is any point in putting greater burdens upon the courts when there is a measure in force which has proved to be satisfactory. For those few but sincere reasons I suggest that the noble Lord does not press his amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I always find the answers given by the Minister interesting. In Scotland, and I suspect elsewhere in Britain, considerable trouble is caused to the elderly by people pretending to be council officers entering their houses and stealing their property. That is a method that thieves frequently use. I am sure that among the dishonest the relevant section of the Consumer Safety Act 1978 is not general knowledge. If it gets around that all someone who pretends to be an enforcement officer can be penalized
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by is a level 5 fine, people may find it more attractive to try that.
All I am suggesting is that the maximum penalty, not the minimum, should be higher. It would be up to the prosecuting authorities and the courts to decide whether to deal with the matter summarily or on indictment. This provision gives a wider discretion, and that is all that I am asking for. Under the threat that I may come back to this, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 30 shall be agreed to?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I wonder whether this is a suitable moment to invite the Government to look again at one of the most misleading passages of the Bill. It is the one which deals with the financial and manpower implications. We are discussing Clause 30 and considering the range of duties contained in Clauses 30 and 31 where responsibilities will be laid upon the authorities to ensure that the Bill works.
It is stated:
"There are not expected to be any implications for public expenditure or public service manpower".
I raised that issue on Second Reading, and the Minister made one or two points. He did not accept my strictures. The Association of County Councils has said that the Minister dissembled. I realise that that is a delicate word for anyone to interpret. I leave it to the Minister to draw his own conclusions as to what it means.
All the Minister said was that if extra duties flowed from the Bill, the authorities would have to find from their budget and by the dispersal of their manpower ways in which they could be carried out and that something else may have to go. I am sure the Minister does not intend that we should improve consumer protection by forcing local authorities to squeeze some other service.
We yet again ask the Minister to say something to satisfy the people at the sharp end—the councillors and the council officers—who are running tight ships and who have a wide range of responsibilities. They are worried that without any additional finance, they will be asked to carry a considerable additional burden. I await the Minister's comments.
Baroness Nicol: I wish to reinforce what my noble friend has said. I shall quote what the Minister said on Second Reading:
"Local authorities have the responsibility of directing their energies to enforcement as to other of their responsibilities as they see fit. This has always been so. What effort they put into the enforcement of trading standards is their business".—[Official Report, 8/12/86; col. 1060.]
That statement on its own is all very well, but taken in conjunction with the passage from the Bill that my noble friend quoted it becomes almost cynical.
If the Bill's success or failure is to depend upon the success or failure of the enforcement proceedings, to say that local authorities must find extra money—I think the Minister in his reply was allowing for the fact that there may be extra expenditure—from overstretched budgets is not good enough.

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We are all behind this Bill and behind increased and improved consumer protection. Given the wide-ranging powers contained in the Bill, that means that there will have to be increased supervision by local authorities and trading standard authorities. It is not good enough to say that they must find this money out of existing budgets. I hope that the Minister will give a more sympathetic answer than he did last time.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I anticipated that the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, might return to this. I confess that I thought he might have moved an amendment which would have enabled me to give more detailed consideration of the response that he now invites me to make. I have to be very careful. I do not underestimate for one moment the work and the dedication of enforcement officers. They have wide-ranging responsibilities in a number of very different areas. Their time is extremely precious.
The noble Baroness quoted what I said at Second Reading; I do not have Hansard with me. However, when I talked about the balance that a local authority had to make with regard to its expenditure, that was a perfectly true statement. They have a budget, and it should be noted here and now that the amount allocated to local authorities for consumer protection and trading standards activities in the rate support grant settlement has increased in recent years—in Great Britain anyway. The allocation was £68·5 million in 1984–85, £70·6 million in 1985–86, and £77·6 million in this financial year. I therefore suggest to the Committee that there is no real shortage of resources for enforcement.
The enforcement authorities already have responsibilities for safety regulations, as we know. The 1986 Act provides for improved enforcement procedures.
A general safety requirement provides a new sanction against unsafe consumer goods and involves enforcement responsibilities.
However, having said that, our trading standards departments are often involved in dealing with complaints and problems about goods not covered by regulations. The general safety requirements that we are introducing into this Bill will facilitate taking more effective direct action in such cases. In other words, I am suggesting that there may indeed be a lessening of the load. Part III replaces Section 2 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1986 and the Bargain Offers Order. The new provision takes account of the difficulties of enforcement encountered under the present law. Again, I am suggesting to the Committee that this will enable more efficient and effective enforcement.
We have given very careful consideration to these matters to which we had to address ourselves, after the noble Lord drew our attention to them. However, we feel fairly satisfied that on balance the new provisions do not have any implications for public expenditure or public service manpower. I do not think I ought to go on further about the general resources—the adequacy or otherwise—made available to local authorities. I do not want to suggest that the report issued today by the audit office has a relevance. There are matters in this Bill which we think have relieved the load to some
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extent. We believe that the job can be done more effectively. We believe that with a greater element of good management and practice the fears which the noble Lord expresses will not be realised.
He asks me to make a comment, and to have a little mini debate on the Question, That the clause stand part. Those are the comments I should like to make. But I should not like the noble Lord or the noble Baroness, or anybody else who may read these proceedings to think that there is any reduction of the standard or standing of enforcement officers in this very difficult and delicate area.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I am grateful to the Minister. The noble Lord has assured us that he and his colleagues anticipated the possible criticism. They have satisfied themselves on balance with a diminution in some responsibilities and a reallocation of officers. I can understand the argument. Those outside the House inform us of the situation, and not those in Whitehall. From their knowledge they say that this will impose additional burdens. They could be wrong; only time will tell.
On this side of the House we have sought to underline the points raised not only by the ACC but by other authorities. I am not aware of comments or briefs from the enforcement officers themselves. I believe that they will try to do their best, as they have always done, within the limit of their resources. An amendment might have provided a more structured debate but it could not have given us more information than we have from the Minister. The noble Lord knows very well that there is a potential danger but he does not think that it will arise. Those outside the House will have to reflect on the position and advise us if they wish us to do anything else at Report stage.
Clause 30 agreed to.
Lord Beaverbrook: Perhaps it will be for the convenience of the Committee if we do not return to the Committee stage until 8.15. I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Local Government Finance Bill
7.16 p.m.
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and to be printed.

Advocates' Widows' and Orphans' Fund Order Confirmation Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) deemed to have been read a second time and reported from the Committee.

Agriculture and Fisheries (Financial Assistance) (Northern Ireland) Order 1987
7.18 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell) rose to move. That the draft order laid before the House on 13th January be approved.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the Agriculture and Fisheries (Financial Assistance) (Northern Ireland) Order, a draft of which was laid before your Lordships on 13th January of this year, be approved.
The purpose of the order before your Lordships tonight is quite straightforward. It will effect the transfer of accounting responsibility for certain agricultural and fisheries expenditure from the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland.
At present, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is responsible for expenditure within Northern Ireland under certain schemes, although they are largely administered by the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland, on an agency basis. In the interest of improved financial management and above all control and in accordance with the principles of the Financial Management Initiative, the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland will now become fully accountable for its actions in administering the scheme in Northern Ireland, thus putting Northern Ireland on a similar footing to the treatment of parallel expenditure in Scotland and in Wales.
The transfer of what we call financial responsibility can only be effected by re-enactment in respect of Northern Ireland of the relevant provisions contained in the United Kingdom Acts. Where appropriate, the Northern Ireland element of the provisions within these Acts will be repealed.
I have nothing further to add about the order before us this evening. I stress once again that the order does not amend any existing legislation. I would wish to add that we have had very little comment during the period when the order was available for consultation. With that, and hoping that your Lordships may be able to raise one or two questions that I can answer, I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th January be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I am sure I have not been speaking for 13 minutes as the clock indicates. I am sure there is going to be an adjustment to the time. I see that the message has got through, the time has been altered.
I appreciate the swift, clear and precise manner in which the Minister has drawn and moved this amendment. No doubt when the Minister responds to the spokesman on the Liberal Benches and to myself, he will confirm that what we are concerned with here is a piece of financial mechanism. It is a straight transfer, not of functions but of accounting
responsibilities. It also brings Northern Ireland into line with practising procedure in financial accounting
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and management which at present is laid on Scotland and on Wales. To that extent all we are concerned with is approving the order as quickly as possibly.
Can the Minister tell us whether or not all the various parts that we have are analogous with other legislation and in effect that nothing new has happened? Perhaps he can also confirm that this is the skeleton or framework that facilitates the carrying out of government responsibilities in one way or another as it affects agriculture and fisheries matters in Northern Ireland. I should be grateful if the Minister can comment on two aspects of the order. Concerning Part III, Farm Structure Grants, having read Article 9(6) I am in favour of what it is to do; namely, to make more efficient use of the land and all that flows from it.
Is the Minister able to tell us whether or not his department has had some experience or illustrations of problems that make this clause not only relevant, but actually of use? It is not just a piece of dead legislation.
Concerning the provision in Article 15, Grants for purposes connected with co-operative activities, perhaps I may ask this question. Is the Minister able to say a word of commendation (I don't want statistics because they can mean anything), or support and approval for the use of the mechanism of cooperatives whenever it can be sensibly applied to the problems of agriculture in Northern Ireland? I am well aware of the number of co-operatives, namely supply co-operatives or creamery co-operatives. I do not refer to the consumer side, although there are consumer co-operatives as well. The farming community is well aware of the value of using a co-operative form of organisation to serve its needs in many ways, for example credit, and certainly supply and marketing, come to mind. If the Minister can help me to better appreciate his understanding and sympathy for the co-operative sector, I should be very grateful. Those are the only observations that I wish to make.
Lord Hampton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order. As we are told, it re-enacts the provisions of a number of agricultural Acts with amendments as they apply in Northern Ireland. The principal amendments are those which transfer to the Department of Agriculture the relevant functions formerly exercised by the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food, or by the Secretary of State.
I am intrigued by paragraph 4 of Article 2 which states:
"For the purposes of this Order, the definition of 'agriculture' in the said section 43(1) shall have effect as if the words 'osier land,' were inserted after the words 'meadow land',"
I do not dispute that, nor do I dispute anything in the order. But I would seek some clarification, particularly about pototoes.
Part II has six sections headed Guaranteed Prices And Assured Markets For Potatoes. One must be thankful that we are not back in the desperate potato famines of the 1840s.
I have two questions to ask the Minister. First, what is unique about Northern Ireland that it needs six sections now, and a whole part of this order to deal with the question of potatoes just for that region? Secondly, if there are such special problems in the

1515
Province, is it not sad that people on the spot cannot sort them out for themselves? With that, we support this order.
Lord Lye11: My Lords, we are grateful for the close attention paid by the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, and the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. I hope that we are able to go through the order fairly quickly and effectively.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, wanted me to confirm that there was nothing new. I do confirm indeed that there is nothing specifically new in the order that is now before us. All that the order is seeking to do is to transfer the financial responsibility from my right honourable friend, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to Northern Ireland, to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. I understand that the funds will be precisely the same but they will be labelled slightly differently.
There should be no effect at all upon the agriculture scene in Northern Ireland. As far as that aspect is concerned, I stress once again what I said before. The Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland will carry out much of the work on the scheme and will incur expenditure on an agency basis.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham, also asked me about paragraph 9, the farm grants. I had one comment in the financial appendix which is part of my notes, this was just "closed". I understand that we are dealing in this part with a scheme which is closed to new entrants but there are still funds outstanding and there is still expenditure which is incurred by participants in this scheme. It is not an insignificant amount, I think it is approximately between £39,000 and £40,000 for this financial year. This is the estimate that we believe may need to be spent.
The noble Lord also asked about the question of co-operatives and had a query about the schemes. Part III enables the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland to make schemes which will provide grants for the farm amalgamation, or the boundary adjustments of farms. It will provide grants also for outgoers, those farmers who wish to cease farming activities because their farms are either not sufficiently viable to support them and their families or they would wish to leave under one of the other terms of this scheme. It enables the department to incur expenditure as part of that scheme.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: That relates to No. 9, not to the co-operatives?
Lord Lye11: Indeed it does, the noble Lord is quite correct. The noble Lord also asked me about support and approval for the co-operative movement and I think that was No. 15?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Yes.
7.30 p.m.
Lord Lye11: My Lords, I certainly had short thought on this particular aspect.
Article 15 enables the department to make schemes for the payment of grant for the encouragement of
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co-operative activities in agriculture or horticulture. I understand the total sum that we are thinking about as far as this order is concerned, is in the region of £60,000. I understand this sum will be split into two heads. I understand that the article that we have before us re-enacts Section 61 of the Agriculture Act 1967 which covers England and Wales. The paragraphs go right through providing grants made under the article. Paragraph 1 enables the department with the approval of the Department of Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland to make varying schemes. Paragraphs 2 to 8 I hope will be reasonably clear for the noble Lord. Certainly I would wish to add our good wishes and our support for the co-operative movement in Northern Ireland. I have been down to at least two of these co-operatives and seen for myself what they do, and I would add my support to the strong words of the noble Lord.
The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, asked me about potatoes. He also asked what was unique about the order. So far as potatoes are concerned, the noble Lord took me to task on Article 4. The detailed arrangements for the support of the potato market in Northern Ireland are currently contained in an agreement between the Ulster Farmers' Union and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The system of support for potatoes is not the same, so far as I know, as it is in Scotland and in England and Wales, but we envisage that the same arrangements that we have had until now will continue with the transfer of financial accountability to my own department, which is the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, will be aware that the Potato Marketing Board is a body which works in Great Britain. The workings of the Potato Marketing Board do not extend to Northern Ireland. The arrangements before us in Article 4 will be operated by my own department in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord asked what was unique about this order. All it does is to allow the financial responsibility to be exercised in Northern Ireland. It does not, I am afraid, give us any more funds for Northern Ireland, much as that may seem attractive. All it does is alter the financial responsibility.
I think I have a note here—although I must have missed it—about, is it "osier"? This is inserted as a technical and legal necessity to make sure that the definition of agricultural land in Northern Ireland is exactly the same as that in Great Britain. I hope that we can leave it there. I hope that noble Lords will agree that we can leave the definition of "osier" there tonight.
If there are further details that either noble Lord requires, perhaps we may pursue those matters in writing. We cannot, I think, go on discussing definitions of land tenure, land law, and other activities of that ilk tonight. I hope that I have covered the points raised by the noble Lords, and with that I beg to move.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, and I am not pursuing the matter strongly, he was kind enough to tell us that the department has in mind expenditure of £60,000 in

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pursuing Article 15—that is, the establishment of cooperatives. If £60,000 is an increase from £10,000, it sounds a lot. I am bound to say that £60,000 does not sound to me like a large sum of money. Is the Minister able to tell us whether it is the same as in last year's accounting? Or was it £40,000 last year, which means that this is a modest increase? What is the position?
Although one hesitates to talk in terms of the expense of establishing co-operative schemes, I am not certain how many one would be able to establish with £60,000. Having said that, £60,000 is better than nothing. We accept that. The beneficiaries of the £60,000 will always be grateful for it. The Minister may feel that he can write to me and include a sketch of the financial provision for establishing these cooperatives. It may even be that we do not have to waste the cost of a postage stamp. There may be other means whereby the Minister can answer my query.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I am advised that the £60,000 I have mentioned is only one element. The total is £175,000. Those are the figures that I have. The noble Lord asked whether this was the total expenditure on Article 15 of the order. I did not bring into the equation some groups who will be called "forage groups". For these, according to the calculations I have, a sum in the region of £113,000 is provided. When I mentioned the figure of £175,000 in total, that is the total sum for what we see as our prepared expenditure on Article 15. The £60,000 is only one element. This is split. But may I write to the noble Lord? It should be a fairly short note, because I do not think that there is a lot of subdivision. The total sum that we see is in the region off 175,000. And three words: we understand that this will be "broadly the same". I think it was broadly the same last year and will be broadly the same over the foreseeable future, as the public expenditure survey forecast for the years ahead. That is how we would see it. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his courtesy.
Lord Kilbracken: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I come in for a moment on the subject of osiers to which the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, referred? The noble Lord is possibly not aware exactly what osiers are. They are members of the salix genus which are planted for the production of basket work, and so on. They are usually coppiced and produce rods every seven or eight years. They are one of the few ways in which forestry can bring some return without a wait of inordinate period. I have never seen them growing in Northern Ireland nor indeed anywhere in Ireland, but I think that their growth should be encouraged even though that is not implied in their insertion in the order.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, as always, I am indebted to the noble Lord for his technical knowledge. I seem to remember that on a previous occasion the noble Lord gave me great technical knowledge about curlews and what could be done with curlews. I am grateful for his help on osiers tonight. If I can find anything further, I shall write to noble Lords. For all I know, I may be able to write to the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, if there is anything to add. I think, however, that the
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balance is on his side, and I am sure that your Lordships will be grateful for his erudition this evening. With that, I beg to move.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Viscount Long: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.15 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The sitting was suspended from 7.38 until 8.15 p.m.]

Consumer Protection Bill [H.L.]
House again in Committee.
Clause 31 [Power of customs officer to detain goods]:
Lord Gallacher Lord Gallacher moved Amendment No. 87:
Page 27, line 44, leave out ("forty-eight hours") and insert ("seven days").
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment No. 88.
We have had considerable representations made to us on this side of the Committee about the wording of the Bill in Clause 31(1) and (3). The view which has been expressed to us is that the proposal that suspect goods can be stopped at the port of entry for 48 hours is an insufficient time for enforcement officers properly to assess whether the goods in question comply with the safety provisions. It is pointed out to us that the fact that the Bill now extends this provision to goods which are not specifically covered by safety regulations means that it is all the more important that enforcement officers are given at least a reasonable opportunity to ascertain whether goods are safe. This needs to be done by testing them in laboratories which are in private ownership and are not open at weekends.
It is also important that enforcement officers are not prevented from exercising their powers over dangerous imports that are arriving at weekends. It is of further importance that the period of 48 hours should be extended. The view is that at least 72 hours are necessary, being the minimum appropriate time in which enforcement officers can perform their duty.
The Treaty of Rome permits restrictions on the importation of goods where such restrictions are justified in the interests of safety. This it is felt is an important argument in support of the amendments we are proposing. The Association of County Councils supports the views I have expressed and has suggested that the period during which customs may hold goods for this purpose should be extended to seven days, which includes five working days.
The Association of Metropolitan Authorities is of a similar mind and has pointed out to us that on Third Reading in another place when the Consumer Safety (Amendment) Bill was being considered the Government tabled and carried an amendment to reduce the detention period from 72 hours to 48 hours. The Association of Metropolitan Authorities was opposed to that move and similarly is concerned to see that 48 hours has been placed in this Bill because

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it regards it as being an insufficient time for the discharge of its functions.
We are suggesting that the period of 48 hours should be extended to seven days and in Amendment No. 88 we are suggesting that the phrase "working day" be defined as meaning,
"any day other than Saturday, Sunday or a Public Holiday".
It seems to us that what we are asking is reasonable and I should like to feel that the Government will make a constructive response to both amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Monson: As the noble Lord is speaking to Amendment No. 88 as well as to Amendment No. 87, let me point out what appears to be a technical defect in Amendment No. 88. The amendment reads:
"In this section 'working day' means any day"—
and so on. In Clause 31, to which the amendment refers, the phrase "working day" appears nowhere, nor will it appear anywhere, even if Amendment No. 87 is agreed to. The word "day" will appear but not the phrase "working day". I do not believe you can have a subsection referring to a "working day" if that term does not appear earlier in the section.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gallacher, for explaining the reason for putting down this amendment. In fact I believe it to be misconceived and I may take some little time to explain why. The Committee will remember that this issue was debated at some length during the passage of the Consumer Safety (Amendment) Bill last year. We initially thought that 24 hours was sufficient for this limited purpose. We were then persuaded by very strong arguments from the National Consumer Council and local authority associations that up to 48 hours may be necessary to deal with awkward cases.
The amendment would increase the length of time during which goods may be detained at ports without cause to suspect that they are unsafe and without compensation in the event that they are subsequently found to be safe from two to seven days. That is a considerable increase, and it seems to me to be an unreasonable and unnecessary one.
In considering what limits should be imposed on this potentially sweeping power, it is important to look at the purpose of the detention provision. That provision is quite limited and it is in addition to the very much wider powers of enforcement authorities to seize or suspend goods suspected of being unsafe for up to six months. The customs detention provision is not intended to be sufficient to enable enforcement authorities to subject goods to detailed scientific tests or to detailed examinations but merely to allow them to make preliminary inquiries about imports, to arrive on the scene and, if appropriate, to exercise their powers to seize or suspend the goods. To allow goods to be detained for a longer period would in our view put the Bill at risk of challenge from the European Community under Article 30 of the Treaty of Rome.
Precisely where the line can be drawn between what might and might not be acceptable to the European
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Court, given that any measures to impede trade on the grounds of health and safety, as permitted under Article 36 of the Treaty, must be strictly proportionate to the health and safety risk in question, is not easy to establish. Everything will depend on the facts of a particular case. It is therefore the views of the European Court and not those of the Commission which matter in this regard.
It is our view, based on experience of past Community intervention, and given the existence of the other powers available to enforcement officers under this Bill, that an extension of this provision to seven days could well be successfully challenged in our courts on the basis of non-compliance with Article 30 of the Treaty of Rome.
I repeat that the period of 48 hours is there so that an immediate halt can be made to goods moving into the marketplace in order to allow a preliminary view to be made. If that preliminary view suggests that further attention is necessary—the technical examination to which the noble Lord has referred—there are provisions to enable that to take place. We believe that the extension which the amendment seeks is neither practicable nor reasonable and, as I said, it could well be in contravention of our obligations under the Treaty.
Lord Gallacher: I thank the noble Lord for that reply. My first response is that there appears to be a reliance upon what the European Court might say about a longer period of detention under Article 36. On the other hand, one is conscious of the fact that the Commission of the European Communities, in its desire to protect consumers of the Community effectively, has set up machinery whereby unsafe goods are notified by member states through the Commission so that in effect the Community states are all protected by a prior system of notification. Whether that system of notification can be safely triggered on the basis of the kind of inspection to which the Minister has referred—that is, taking place within a period of 48 hours—is a moot point. I should like to consider that in relation to his further reference to Article 30.
The noble Lord did not give me any reason to suppose that if we had been more modest in our amendment—that is to say if we had proposed 72 hours rather than seven days—it might have found favour with him. That, too, will be reflected upon in the light of what we read in the Official Report. We may return to the question on Report, having fully considered what has been said this evening. If we do so return then, we shall take account of the criticism legitimately made by the noble Lord, Lord Monson, on the drafting and the use of the words "working day". I give my assurance that that will not be repeated; and I now beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 88 not moved.]
Clause 31 agreed to.
Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.
Clause 34 [Compensation for seizure and detention]:
Baroness Nicol Baroness Nicol had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 89:
Page 29, line 25, at end insert ("and
(c) it is shown that the officer did not have reasonable grounds for exercising the power.").
The noble Baroness said: This amendment was spoken to in our discussion on Part II of the Bill on the last Committee day. I simply want to say that our discussion then was rather shortened because it was late at night and we were hurrying through. We were not entirely pleased with the answers we received then and I wish to inform the Committee that we are likely to come back to this at the next stage of the Bill.
[Amendment No. 89 not moved.]
Clause 34 agreed to.
Clauses 35 to 37 agreed to.
Clause 38 [Restrictions on disclosure of information]:
On Question, Whether Clause 38 shall stand part of the Bill?
Baroness Nicol: I have a question to put to the Minister which has been suggested to us by the Chief Officer of the Trading Standards Department of Cambridgeshire. It refers to the fact that this clause seems to preclude the giving of public warnings in relation to unsafe goods. It is a very long and complicated clause. This aspect of it has just been drawn to our attention; otherwise we should have put forward a probing amendment earlier about this. I give notice to the Minister that we should like an answer to this question. He may not be able to answer it tonight and of course we shall quite understand that. However, the trading standards officer for Cambridgeshire says:
"It is my view that I should be able to offer warnings in a public safety issue, at the same time as pursuing inquiries into a criminal offence. Public safety advice is not a matter which is included in Clause 38(1)".
We should welcome an answer from the noble Lord on that, if not tonight, at a later stage.
Lord Beaverbrook: This is a complicated clause. As to whether trading standards officers are prevented from notifying problems or warning the public about unsafe goods, the answer is basically no. However, I should like to consider the matter further and perhaps respond to the noble Baroness in writing.
Clause 38 agreed to.
Clause 39 [Defence of due diligence]:
[Amendment No. 90 not moved.]
Clause 39 agreed to.
Clauses 40 and 41 agreed to.
Clause 42 [Reports etc.]:
8.30 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 42 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: I raise again a point which was raised on a number of occasions in your Lordships' House on Second Reading and which was raised once or twice in Committee. Clause 42 lays the onus on the Secretary of State to lay a report before each House of Parliament, but in doing so he has obviously to call for reports from the various enforcement authorities and this lays yet another burden on the enforcement authorities.
There is a general point here which we made on Second Reading as to whether finance will be available to enforcement authorities to meet their obligations under the whole of this Bill, if it is passed. I raise this matter on Clause 42 stand part because throughout the whole Bill there are a number of obligations placed on the enforcement authorities but in the Financial Memorandum there is no provision at all for extra public expenditure. It seems to me that there is a case, to which we shall come back when time permits, for ensuring that those enforcement authorities on which obligations are laid should be properly funded by the central authority.
Lord Brougham and Vaux: May I come in here as the noble Lord has raised a subject which I raised in Committee at col. 916 of the Official Report for 20th January? I shall not waste the time of your Lordships' Committee by going through it again, but if the Minister will take note of what I said then in relation to what the noble Lord, Lord Williams, has said, perhaps we can return to the subject at the next stage.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am quite happy to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and indeed from my noble friend Lord Brougham and Vaux, that they both have some concern in this matter. At this time there is little I can do other than draw to the attention of the Committee, and in particular the two noble Lords, what I said in relation to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, raised in an earlier discussion on resources available to the enforcement services.
Members of the Committee should take on board the fact that similar provisions to the provision which is embodied here about a report are contained in Section 8(2) of the Consumer Safety Act 1978. The Committee may recall that the Secretary of State submitted a report to Parliament in October 1986. We do not believe that any further provisions are needed because those that are already in that Act appear to be working well, and I do not believe that this obligation raises any greater burden than the obligation now upon the enforcement services in relation to the Consumer Safety Act. If the noble Lord, Lord Williams, or my noble friend Lord Brougham and Vaux wish to raise the matter at a later stage, we shall of course respond. But I thought it might be helpful if I gave a preliminary view of our feelings in this matter.
Lord Brougham and Vaux: My noble friend referred to the Consumer Safety Act 1978. On my reading of Schedule 5 to this Bill, that whole Act is being repealed.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Brougham and Vaux. I am very surprised that the Minister should quote in evidence an Act passed by a previous government under a previous administration with a different attitude towards local authority finance. If it were the case that the present Government were going to adopt the attitude of the previous Labour Government to local authority finance, I should be quite happy that he quotes in evidence the Act that we passed. But the fact is that the present Government have shown a pretty stingy attitude towards local authority expenditure and I am surprised again that the noble Lord seeks to pin in some way the responsibility on us for what is after all government policy.
Clause 42 agreed to.
Clauses 43 and 44 agreed to.
Clause 45 [Interpretation.]:
Lord Airedale Lord Airedale moved Amendment No. 91:
Page 35, line 8. at end insert—
(""Community obligation" means a legal obligation arising from the United Kingdom's membership of the European Communities;"
The noble Lord said: I think that "Community obligation" is a widely understood expression, but it probably needs definition according to the rules which govern these things. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: Again I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, for the way in which he has put his amendment to the Committee this evening. It defines "Community obligation" in Clause 45. In this clause we have defined those words which need defining or interpreting for the purpose of the Bill. The phrase "Community obligation" is relevant to the defence in Clause 4(1)(a) that it shall be a defence for a producer of a defective product to show,
"that the defect is attributable to compliance with any requirement imposed by or under any enactment or with any Community obligation".
There is no need in this Bill to define "Community obligation". The term is already defined for any Act of Parliament. It is defined by Schedule 1 to the European Communities Act 1972 and Schedule 1 to the Interpretation Act of 1978.
For the benefit of the Committee, perhaps I may quote this short definition. It reads:
"'Community obligation' means any obligation created or arising by or under the Treaties whether an enforceable Community obligation or not".
Therefore, I do not think there is any case for introducing a different definition for the purpose of this Bill. I hope that the noble Lord and other Members of the Committee will find that explanation satisfactory and that he will be persuaded not to press this amendment.
Lord Airedale: That sounds a very good answer and I am persuaded not to press the amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 45 agreed to.
Clause 46 agreed to.
Clause 47 [Savings for certain privileges]
On Question, Whether Clause 47 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: This is perhaps a small point. We note in Clause 47 that there are savings for certain privileges, and privileges as defined are,
"barrister, advocate or solicitor of a record … or in Scotland a confidential communication made by or to him in that capacity".
The problem is that there are other professions that have a confidential relationship with their client, and I am thinking particularly of the accountancy profession. I should be grateful, if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate is to respond to this point, if he would consider whether or not some provision should be made for professions that are in possession of confidential—particularly commercially confidential—information. I refer particularly to Part III of the Bill which concerns commercial confidentiality. I should be grateful if he would let us know whether the Government have considered the possibility that other professions should be protected in the same way as the legal profession.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I am grateful to the noble Lord opposite for having made clear the reason for his query. I think that it has always been recognised that in relation to legal proceedings there is a special privilege that attaches which does not attach in general to other communications between advisers. I believe that the best thing I can do this evening is to say that I shall take note of what the noble Lord has said. I am not persuaded that there is in fact any similarity in the matter of privilege between what is covered here and the privilege which may attach in commerical dealings between an accountant, for instance, and his client, when it comes to legal proceedings. I make that absolutely plain. However, I should like to consider the matter further since the noble Lord has raised it, and perhaps I may write to him.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. I hope he accepts that I am speaking because of representations that have been made to me by certain accountants that, particularly under Part III on misleading price indications, auditors may get involved, may have confidential communications, if you like, and may be in a position in which lawyers would normally find themselves as a matter of practice.
Clause 47 agreed to.
Clause 48 [Minor and consequential amendments and repeals]:
8.45 p.m.
Earl De La Warr Earl De La Warr moved Amendment No. 92:
Page 37, line 44, leave out ("Acts") and insert ("Act").
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 92 I hope I have the leave of the Committee to speak also to Amendments Nos. 93 and 108. Amendment No. 93 is the substantive amendment. These amendments are to be taken as probing amendments, at least this time round.
The Trade Descriptions Act 1972 requires that imported goods bearing a United Kingdom mark, name or anything likely to be taken as such should be marked with the country of origin. Clause 48(2)(a) repeals that Act. My amendment seeks to reverse that.
It is my profound belief that the present practice is regarded by many people when they are shopping as an important aid to the often difficult question of choice. Happily there are still many people who would rather buy British if they possibly can, and I insist that, coming as it does in a brand new consumer protection Bill, the repeal of the 1972 Act will be regarded as a retrograde step. In my opinion, that is the correct view.
We know that the decision by the Government to repeal this Act has been taken reluctantly following an adverse decision as regards the 1981 marking order in the European Court. What we do not know and what we would very much like to know is whether the Government are going to find a means of repairing the damage and, if so, how; for damage it is, not only to consumers but also to not a few British manufacturing companies. I instance in particular, although there are many others, the case of the Sheffield cutlers.
I must reiterate that I base my questions, as is proper in a consumer protection Bill, primarily on the need to protect consumers or shoppers. I shall therefore boldly venture one suggestion to my noble friend. It may be unavoidable that we should stop insisting on country of origin marking of goods manufactured or assembled in Community countries. But surely the requirement to mark can still apply in law to goods made in other countries, such as Taiwan.
I hope that by now my noble friend will have perceived that I am going short on criticism and long on a request for answers. I hope that the answers he will be able to give will be of help to the Committee. I beg to move.
Baroness Nicol: We have the greatest sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Earl, not only because we feel that it is right that people should be able to buy British when they wish to do so, and not only because buying British usually means that one gets better quality. People also often wish to avoid buying from other countries for a variety of reasons. For example, there are many who would not wish to buy toys from Taiwan, where the safety record is not good. There are many who would not wish to buy goods from South Africa for reasons of which the Committee will be aware. There are many countries which, for a variety of reasons, fall on to the black list of many people who do not wish to support them. However, above all many people wish to buy British where they can. I think that opinion is widely held in this House.
I hope that there will be a sympathetic answer, although I do know there is a difficulty with Common Market legislation. However, I feel that we must find a way round that because we are now in a situation
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where, even if we accept the suggestion of the noble Lord that countries within the Common Market should be excluded from the need for labelling, there is nothing to stop someone, say, in West Germany from importing goods from an outside country, relabelling them and then selling those goods in this country. It would be impossible in those circumstances for the goods to be identified. I hope that the noble Lord the Minister will find a clever answer.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: I should like to support what my noble friend Lord De La Warr has said. Years ago when I was chairman of the Consumer Council, this was one of the things which continually cropped up. People wanted to know the origin of goods which they were buying. In those days things were nearly always marked with the country of origin. That is information which everybody wants and it does seem to me unfortunate that we have to give that up now.
The noble Baroness mentioned the European situation, and I realise the difficulty. On the other hand, there is the possibility of making arrangements which may not in any way offend the EC but which will make it perfectly clear that what the British public is buying is labelled as to country of origin. It is something which everyone wants to know, and apart from the patriotic angle of buying British (which I am sure most of us should like to do) I think it is important that we know where goods come from and do not find ourselves buying goods from countries of which we strongly disapprove. That could well happen.
I do hope that the Minister will consider this and see whether or not some arrangement can be made to safeguard consumers against buying goods from a country whose products they do not wish to buy.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I can readily understand the concern which has prompted these amendments, but I ask the Committee to accept that the repeal of the Trade Descriptions Act 1972 is necessary in order for the United Kingdom to comply with its Community obligations. I should also like to reassure the Committee that the Government are leaving no stone unturned in their efforts to identify further measures which might be introduced to mitigate the effect of that repeal.
The European Commission has formally challenged the legality of the Act under the Treaty of Rome and, were it not to be repealed, the matter would come before the European Court of Justice. We have most carefully studied an earlier judgment on similar legislation and this has led us reluctantly to conclude that we could not hope successfully to defend the Act in the Court of Justice and that no useful purpose would be served by attempting to do so. We are therefore currently consulting interested parties on the scope for successor arrangements, consistent with Community law, which might be introduced by order under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 to coincide with the repeal of the 1972 Act.
Perhaps I may assure my noble friend Lord De La Warr that we are well aware of the cutlery industry's concerns, as we are of other industries' concerns, and we shall certainly be consulting them closely about the successor arrangements. Having said that, I should advise the Committee that our consultations with

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interested parties on the scope for the successor arrangements are already in hand in some areas.
I should also explain to the Committee that even if it is not possible to replace the 1972 Act with further measures—and I hope that it will be possible—there will be nothing to prevent manufacturers from marking their goods as "Made in Britain"—and indeed I hope they will do—which I am confident that most British manufacturers will wish to do. There is nothing wrong in that. There is nothing to prevent them from doing it. It will remain an offence under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 to describe goods as made in this country if in fact they are made abroad.
In proposing the amendment to the Committee my noble friend suggested that one solution to meet the constraints of Community law would be to exempt goods made in the Community from the requirement for origin marking but to continue to require this for goods from outside the Community. The Government conducted consultations on the merits of such a solution in the case of the 1981 origin marking order which was revoked last year after an adverse judgment in the European Court. It was clear from the views expressed that to exempt Community goods would create a highly confusing situation for traders, consumers and enforcement officers.
The treaty requires that any such exemption would have to apply also to goods from outside the Community which enter the United Kingdom via another member state—exactly the point made by the noble Baroness. This would create the absurd situation whereby a shirt made in Taiwan—I shall stay with something rather anodyne if I may—would have to be origin marked if it arrived direct from Taiwan but not if it reached this country via a wholesaler in Antwerp.
The Committee will be interested to know that last year the French Government completely revoked some of their origin marking legislation dealing with textiles, after earlier simply exempting Community goods. I say in the friendliest of terms to our French partners that they are not perhaps generally reckoned to be backward in these matters. They concluded that the solution did not work and I have no doubt that the same would be the case in this country.
One can foresee the situation—and I stress this point to my noble friend Lady Elliot—that if we made it obligatory for goods to be marked "Made in Britain" or "Produced in Britain"—and I pick by chance, because I was talking about France, the French position—it might work adversely in the area of the fruit industry. Perhaps the French prefer French Delicious to British delicious apples. We run into a number of difficulties in making some of this marking obligatory. I hope that the United Kingdom manufacturer will be sufficiently proud of his product to so advertise the fact if it is in his interests, especially in export markets.
I have no clever answer. We continue to study the matter; we hope to find a solution and we shall work towards that. I conclude by saying that we are not blind to the point of view put forward by my noble friend, nor indeed to the points put forward by other noble Lords.
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I hope that my noble friend will not condemn the United Kingdom to certain defeat in the European Court of Justice by persisting with his amendment. I am sufficiently optimistic from his earlier remarks that it is a probing amendment that he will not do so.
Lord Williams of Elvel: Yet again the Minister says that consultations are in progress and that in the course of time something will come out of them. May we please have an indication from the noble Lord—because this matter was raised at Second Reading and he gave, if I may say so, more or less the same reply then as he has given this evening—as to when his consultations will come to a conclusion and when he can bring before the House some indication to his noble friend that his problems have been met?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I do not know whether the noble Lord is trying to tease me this evening. He knows, because he has experience of these matters, that I cannot put a date on it. The consultations may take a long time, and I mean a long time; and I hope he is not going to ask me what I mean by "long". We usually have this in terms of "short".
It is not easy to find a solution. We have to ensure that, by virtue of an amendment of this nature or by virtue of our taking appropriate steps such as the Bill does in the repeal of that Act, we do not find ourselves in default over our obligations in the Community. We seek to find an alternative to that which we have generally regarded, if I may use the term, as protective. I hope we can. We have been consulting. We seek a number of avenues and we have then to study what our proposals might be in relation to our obligations. Again we have to consult in Europe. We would want to carry our EC partners with us, and that is one of the reasons why I described the position in France.
I have to say to the noble Lord that I am sorry, but I cannot give him an indication. I said at the outset that we regard this matter as important and urgent. With all the obligations that my officials in the department have, not least with regard to the Community, I have to say that we cannot pick and choose as to which receives highest priority. We try to treat all with a high priority.
9 p.m.
Earl De La Warr: I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for the trouble that he has taken to answer me as fully as he can. I am possibly a little more optimistic than the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, so I can now tell him that I shall be coming back at Report stage to find out how the Government are getting on. Believe me, I do not underestimate the difficulties.
My noble friend mentioned the Act of 1968. He has not mentioned something else which I understand was mentioned in correspondence from his department; namely some food regulations, expanded suitably. He made a point about the manufacturers in Britain wanting to have "Made in Britain". With the greatest respect, I think that is something of an irrelevance. However, he has told us that the Government are addressing themselves to that and will be inquiring again in three weeks time. In view of what he has not been able to tell us, perhaps I may leave him with a few thoughts.

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One matter was touched upon almost completely by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol. It is well known that in certain European countries—perhaps it is better not to mention names—companies are importing goods from Taiwan and other places in the Far East and re-exporting them, but they are marking them—perhaps I dare say it—"Made in Holland" or "Made in Germany", as the case may be. I do not want to impute anything too much in the way of bad faith, but I now see why some of our partners do not like this 1972 Act because they are constantly in breach of it. That was the point that the noble Baroness reached, but I do not think she mentioned the final sting. That may be something which my noble friend could consider during the next three weeks.
He may also like to think about Article 36 of the Treaty of Rome because it relates to it. That article is concerned with the protection of industrial property rights; therefore, by definition, it seeks the protection of those rights against unfair trading practices. I use the words "unfair trading practices" deliberately in view of the practices to which I have just referred.
I repeat my thanks to my noble friend for all that he has said so far. At Report stage I hope to hear the next thrilling instalment in this saga. With the leave of the Committee, I shall now withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 93 not moved.]
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: Before we leave Clause 48 I should like to respond positively to my noble friend Lord Brougham and Vaux. I am sorry that he is not in his place because he specifically asked about the repeal of the Consumer Safety Act 1978. We moved on rather quickly and I should have told him that, although the 1978 Act will be repealed, its provisions will continue in the Bill. In this regard the Bill is a consolidation measure. I think he should know that before he proceeds in the way that he indicated.
Lord Williams of Elvel: On the noble Lord's point, do I understand that the whole of the 1978 Act will be consolidated in this new Bill or only parts of it?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My understanding is that only parts will be consolidated.
Clause 48 agreed to.
Clause 49 agreed to.
Clause 50 [Short title, commencement and transitional provision]:
[Amendment No. 94 not moved.]
Clause 50 agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Limitation of Actions under Part I]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 95:
Page 40, line 21, after ("knowledge") insert ("or should reasonably have had knowledge").
The noble Lord said: Now we come back to Part 1 in the directive which for some reason best known to those on the other side of the Committee was not dealt with with Part I. This concerns the provisions
1530
regarding limitation of actions, and it is unfortunate that the Committee is as crowded as it usually is when discussing something as abstruse as this, because in fact it causes much more difficulty than may be realised by those who are not lawyers.
My Amendment No. 95 is a fairly straightforward attempt to add, with such respect as I should properly have for the law of England and Wales, to the provisions in the schedule the words in the directive,
"or should reasonably have had knowledge".
The directive by Article 10 says:
"The limitation period shall begin from the day on which the plaintiff became aware or should reasonably have become aware".
It is to bring in that "reasonably have had knowlege" that this amendment is proposed. Otherwise it does not appear to me that the provision as drafted, in spite of Clause 5(7), meets the requirements of Article 10 of the directive. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: The schedule is of course being considered at its proper time, as was explained at the outset of the Committee's discussions. Let me say that, while I appreciate the reasons why the noble Lord raises this matter, it is as well to see where the provision falls which his amendment seeks to amend. It is of course in Section 14 of the 1980 Act. As the noble Lord will be aware from his study of that Act, Section 14(3) reads as follows:
"For the purposes of this section a person's knowledge includes knowledge which he might reasonably have been expected to acquire".
It then proceeds from there. That will remain unchanged. The effect of the present proposals in the schedule is to add something which will refer to knowledge and which will by reference take in the words:
"might reasonably have been expected to acquire".
The view is, as I think the noble Lord will understand, that that is equivalent to what the directive is seeking to achieve. For that reason we take the view that the schedule as drafted is adequate.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord. It is always interesting for two Scots to be discussing possible amendments to English law.
I have the curious notion that it is easier to say what is required in one sentence. To say,
"had knowledge or should reasonably have had knowledge",
conveys the idea rather more quickly than to wander from one section to another. As usual at this time of night, I have to say to the noble and learned Lord that I shall study what he said and I may well come back at a later stage. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 96:
Page 41, line 1, leave out paragraph 6.
The noble Lord said: In one sense this is a probing amendment. One wonders at times—especially perhaps when one is told at this end of the kingdom how well the economy is doing but in Scotland one has rather a different picture—why the Department of Trade and Industry adopts a different attitude to England than to Scotland. What the department has

1531
done in this Bill is to give in the English part of the limitation provisions the discretion which exists in the Limitation Act to extend, for adequate reasons, the three-year limit.
When the Government were drafting the provisions in relation to Scotland they cut that out. Therefore, no discretion is given in Scotland to extend the three-year limit, although there is to be a discretion in England. If the Government can convince the Committee that there is reason to believe that they can get away with the discretion not being in contravention of Article 10 of the directive, I should be in favour of it. However,
I would then ask why should it apply only to England and not to Scotland. In that sense it is a probing amendment. If the noble and learned Lord can convince me that it is proper to have this discretion, no doubt he will have to say that he will come forward with an amendment which will give that discretion to Scotland, too. I beg to move.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: The noble Lord started with an irrelevancy and proceeded to deal with a matter that is not, of course, strictly before the Committee tonight with regard to the discretion in Scotland. However, I take the serious point that he made. He asked me why this discretion is given in England. Article 10 of the directive, which deals with the matter of limitation, provides that,
"The laws of Member States regulating suspension or interruption of the limitation period shall not be affected by this Directive".
This permits, in respect of the law in England, the discretion which is already provided, as the noble Lord recognises, in the limitation Act to continue to affect actions arising out of Part I of the Act.
I have to say that the text "suspension or interruption" has been used in similar contexts in other international instruments. It is apparent that it has been interpreted in a commonsense way to cover all the cases in which the limitation period in exceptional cases might be suspended and so extended under domestic law. I give one example which is that found in the Maritime Conventions Act 1911, in particular in Section 8.
For that reason, the view has been taken that Article 10 does not prevent the existing law—so far as concerns suspension or interruption of the limitation period, which, of course, applies to actions for personal injury—from applying to actions for such injury arising under Part I of the Bill. However, the noble Lord opposite pointed out what at first sight would appear to be a distinction that is drawn in Part II of this schedule. We shall be dealing with that shortly. I can say to the noble Lord opposite that I am very sensible of that matter and indeed there is a somewhat similar discretion already operative in Scotland in relation to personal injuries actions.
While not wishing to anticipate what I may say if the noble Lord opposite moves amendments directed to that part, there are aspects of it that we would wish to consider in the light of those amendments together with the more general matter which arises in relation to the point he has made on this amendment. I hope that, in view of the explanation that I have tendered,
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the noble Lord will feel that there is ground for using the present discretion, which is granted to courts in England and Wales (and, I suspect, probably Northern Ireland, though I only suspect it) to extend the operation. I accept, of course, that Northern Ireland would have to be brought in by way of order. That discretion would be covered by the article in the directive. Perhaps with that explanation, the noble Lord opposite may feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Certainly on that undertaking and awaiting eagerly an explanation as to why in the second part of the schedule there is no reference to Section 19A of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act—which no doubt we shall have in a few minutes—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 97:
Page 41, line 23, leave out paragraph 8 and insert—
("8. In section 7(2) after the words "not being" there shall be inserted the words "a liability to which section 22A of this Act applies or" ").
The noble Lord said: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I deal with Amendment Nos. 97, 98 and perhaps 99 in the one group.
The amendment has sought to take up what is dealt with in Part I of the Bill, and in the directive. That is, "a liability". The schedule is framed in a way which speaks of an obligation in a kind of lay sense. It could perhaps be argued that an obligation is the mirror image of a liability, but that is not strictly the same. If one wanted to be strictly accurate in dealing with the directive in Part I, one should deal with a liability because a liability can be different from an obligation, and it is a liability with which the directive (and therefore Part I of this Bill) deals and not an obligation. Therefore the prescription and limitation provisions should deal with liabilities rather than obligations. It is for that purpose that I have endeavoured to draft these amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I think the noble Lord recognises from what he said that there is no real distinction to be drawn between the "liability" and "obligation".
I should point out to the Committee that this part of Schedule 1 deals with amendment of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973. That Act—Part I in particular—deals with prescription and limitation in respect of prescription of rights and obligations. It does not provide for the prescription of liabilities.
It is fair to point out to the noble Lord the list of obligations set out in paragraph 1(d) of Schedule I of the 1973 Act, which refers to:
"any obligation arising from liability (whether arising from any enactment or from any rule of law) to make reparation".
For that reason it seems to the Government that this matter is properly described as an obligation arising by virtue of the liability that attaches in Part I of the Act where damage is caused wholly or partly by a defect in the product. I cannot therefore accept the amendment. The noble Lord may like to consider what I have said, and withdraw the amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I will of course (without any promise that I will not come back) withdraw Amendment No. 97.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 98 not moved.]
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 99:
Page 41, leave out from beginning of line 40 to end of line 3 on page 42 and insert—
("(2) Section 9 of this Act shall apply in relation to the meaning of "relevant claim" as if the person liable under section 2 of the 1987 Act were the debtor and the person entitled to reparation were the creditor.").
The noble Lord said: I wish to take the opportunity of raising a point that I should have raised earlier on the question of a relevant claim. A relevant claim is defined in Section 9 of the 1973 Act as including certain steps in the bankruptcy provisions. I am asking whether the Government are satisfied that this is a relevant claim in the meaning of the directive. Article 11 states,
"unless the injured person has in the meantime instituted proceedings".
If one lodges a claim in a bankruptcy, in no sense that I understand does one institute proceedings. I take the opportunity of the amendment to inquire whether the Government are satisfied that they have covered the question of a person putting in a claim in a bankruptcy. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I am grateful to the noble Lord and I apologise to him because I had meant to cover that point, as he spoke to this amendment with the previous one. The view is that reference in the directive to "instituting proceedings" would allow a provision to be made for the interruption of prescription by the making of a claim in "appropriate proceedings" and even in bankruptcy. However, it is doubtful whether the execution of dilgence, which is also referred to in Section 9(1) of the 1973 Act, could be described as "instituting proceedings", and it has not been included in the definition of "relevant claim" for the purpose of the Bill.
However, consideration of that matter as a result of the noble Lord's amendment has drawn attention to the possible need to incorporate something similar to Section 9(3) of the 1973 Act, which defines when a claim may be said to be made in arbitration proceedings. If that is found to be necessary, an appropriate amendment will be brought forward on Report. I am grateful to the noble Lord for having brought this matter forward.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I thank the noble and learned Lord for his answers. In those circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 100 not moved.]
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 101:
Page 42, line 14, leave out from second ("the") to end of line 21 and insert ("pursuer in the action became or on which in the opinion of the Court it would have been reasonably practicable for him in all the circumstances to become aware of all the following facts:
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(i)that the damage or injuries were sufficiently serious to justify his bringing an action of damages on the assumption that the person against whom the action was brought did not dispute liability and was able to satisfy a decree;

(ii)that there was a defect in the product;

(iii)that the damage or injuries were attributable in whole or in part to that defect;

(iv)that the defender was a person liable under section 2 of the 1987 Act.").

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Airedale): If the Committee were to agree to Amendment No. 101, I could not call Amendment No. 102.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I heard what was said about Amendment No. 102. I shall have to think about that. In speaking to Amendment No. 101, I shall speak to the almost identical amendment, Amendment No. 104. The purpose of Amendments Nos. 101 and 104 is to try to tie back the requirements of knowledge contained in the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973 with the requirements of the directive in what I hope, with all due diffidence, is perhaps happier language than occurs in the Bill as presently drafted.
It would be unfortunate, in what has always been for lawyers most difficult and case-producing legislation, to start using different words and phrases when, after 14 years, we are beginning to understand what is meant by the words in the 1973 Act. If one introduces new words, one introduces a new 10-year period of litigation for the courts to tell us what they mean and why different words are used in different sections of the same Bill.
I shall mention Amendment No. 102. The purpose of that amendment was merely to comply with the directive because the directive says that the three necessary items that one must be aware of in Article 10 are the damage, the defect and the identity of the producer. It is therefore necessary to say somewhere that the potential pursuer must he aware that there is a defect in the product. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: It is always difficult, particularly in the light of the Deputy Chairman's ruling, to decide whether to dangle the carrot now or later. Were the noble Lord in due course to move Amendments Nos. 102 and 105, I would have little difficulty in accepting them. On Amendment No. 101, I recognise that he has raised two important points. The first concerns the test of a claimant's constructive knowledge. The amendments follow a test set out in the 1973 Act, as amended. To explain the Government's thinking, I have to say that what is set out there is in somewhat different terms from Article 10 of the directive, which refers merely to the date on which the plaintiff should reasonably have become aware, and so on. As drafted, the schedule was considered to be safer in giving effect to the directive, in that it followed the wording of Article 10 rather than attempting to gloss its meaning by adopting the test which was in the 1973 Act.
The second point, a similar one, arises with regard to the description of the damages of which the pursuer has to be aware or reasonably aware. Again the

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amendment of the noble Lord follows an approach in the existing legislation, whereas Article 10 of the directive simply refers to knowledge of the damage without reference to the significance of it. Again in these circumstances it was considered that it would be safer in giving effect to the directive to follow closely the wording of Article 10 rather than glossing its meaning by importing a qualitative test of the damage.
Nevertheless, I am persuaded by what the noble Lord said that we should give further consideration on this matter. As a result, if it is thought that it would be both possible and preferable to bring forward amendments, appropriate amendments would be brought forward at a later stage.
I should perhaps say to the noble Lord that his second amendment, Amendment No. 104, is defective. At present a claimant in a fatal accident, whether an executor or a dependent relative, has three years from the date of death or from the date of his actual or imputed knowledge, whichever is the later, in which to commence proceedings. This amendment would have the effect of preventing the three-year period running from the date of death of the injured person. I suspect that that was not the intention of the amendment but unfortunately, as printed, that is the consequence of it.
Having explained what I would wish to do if the Committee were so minded. I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendments at this stage to allow further consideration.
9.30 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord. Perhaps in relation to Amendment No. 104 it would have been preferable if those advising him had looked at the corrected amendment. The original amendment had a misprint—no doubt due to my very bad writing—which referred to line 34. On the Marshalled List it is line 36. The date of death of the injured person remains. It is the later of the two dates. I believe that the noble and learned Lord has been wrongly instructed. I spotted that error earlier.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I merely say mea maxima culpa.
Lord Morton of Shuna: Having scored that very small point, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: My earlier reference to Amendment No. 102 was to point out that it is an amendment to line 18 and had Amendment No. 101 been agreed to there would not have been a line 18 to be amended. Amendment No. 102 remains available to be debated.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 102:
Page 42, line 18, at end insert—
("(aa) that there was a defect in a product;")
The noble Lord said: The noble Lord the Deputy Chairman is perfectly right. Amendment No. 101
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contains the words in sub-paragraph (ii). They are now being sought to be put in under paragraph (aa) in the amendment. In view of the unusual but pleasurable response that I received from the noble and learned Lord, all I have to do is move this amendment. I am also speaking to Amendment No. 105.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 103:
Page 42, line 25, at end insert—
"(5) For the purpose of this section, knowledge that any liability which was enforceable under section 2 of the 1987 Act was or was not as a matter of law actionable is irrelevant.")
The noble Lord said: In speaking to this amendment, I shall speak to Amendment No. 106 as well. By Section 22(3) of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act, this clause, or something along the same sense, is put into Sections 17 and 18 of that Act. It is a necessary clause on the basis of the legal theory that ignorance of the law is no excuse. It would appear to have been omitted inadvertently from the new provisions 22B and 22C. It is in an endeavour to put that right that these amendments are put forward. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I can assure the noble Lord opposite that the fact that this was not put in was not through inadvertence. At the time it was felt that is was unnecessary by reason that if liability would be enforceable under Section 2 of the 1987 Act as his amendment has it, then it must, almost by definition, be actionable and therefore it would be unnecessary to include that. Having said that, there is a problem which can arise; for instance, the question of whether or not the defect was of such a nature as to give rise to liability under Part I. I am bound to say that it would be proper that we should give further consideration to that question. It may be that at the end of the day something very akin to what is already in the 1973 Act as amended, may be brought forward. If such provision is required, I shall certainly come back to your Lordships on Report for that purpose. On that understanding, perhaps the noble Lord may feel able to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I certainly intend to withdraw the amendment. However, before doing so, perhaps I can bring to the attention of the noble and learned Lord the difficulty that arises if there is the same provision in Sections 17 and 18 of the 1973 Act, but it is left out from Sections 22B and 22C. Are you not opening the way for somebody to say: "I have never even heard of the 1987 Act, therefore I did not know I had a right"? Then you might be in trouble. But, in the certain knowledge that the noble and learned Lord will consider that point, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 104 not moved.]
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 105:
Page 42, line 37, at end insert—
("( ) that there was a defect in the product;").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 106 not moved.]
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 107:
Page 43, line 9, leave out paragraph 11.
The noble Lord said: This amendment is really in the nature of a probing amendment. Why in Schedule 1, which is an attempt to bring the limitation provisions into line to comply with the directive, is it necessary to take out a section of the 1973 Act which says:
"The enactments specified in Part 2 of Schedule 4 to this Act shall have effect subject to the amendments specified in that Schedule being amendments consequential upon the provisions of this Part of this Act"?
No doubt somebody has some reason for taking it out, but I fail to understand why it has to go. I confess I do not follow at all. Therefore, my amendment is to leave out this rather extraordinary provision. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: Perhaps I may say that my sympathies were with the noble Lord when I first saw this particular part of Schedule 1, but I am advised that it is necessary because it is a drafting device to ensure that the new Part II of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973—whose provisions to which we have already referred in our discussion earlier—is inserted immediately before Part III of that Act, which seems to be a suitable place for it to be.
Paragraph 11 provides for the repeal of Section 23 of that Act, which is the last section in Part II, so as to make space for the new Part IIA, and the effect of Section 23 is retained. This unusual provision is drafted in this way because of the difficulty left by the manner in which the 1973 Act was amended by the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1984. The 1984 Act inserted a new Section 23A at the beginning of Part III. However it was intended in this Bill to insert a new Part IIA after the end of Part II and before Part III; that is to say, between Section 23 and Section 23A. In these circumstances it would be difficult to provide appropriately for the numbering of the sections in the new Part IIA.
I trust that the noble Lord opposite is with me so far. In these circumstances it was considered by the parliamentary draftsman that the most appropriate way of giving effect to what was intended was to provide for the repeal of Section 23, because that was a purely formal provision which provided for the amendments and repeal of certain amendments. In so far as Section 23 repealed certain enactments it is spent. In so far as it affected consequential amendments it may be argued that it is also spent. However, there is no clear authority on the latter point, and it is the practice of the draftsman to assume that such a provision is not spent, and hence the saving of these amendments, "for the avoidance of doubt".
I trust that, with that somewhat lengthy and convoluted, but I hope on the whole reasonably acceptable, explanation the Committee are clear as to the need for paragraph 11 and are satisfied that the
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amendment, which would remove it, should not be accepted. I have to say that, like the noble Lord, I asked when this matter was first brought to my notice why we should do it this way. However, I am satisfied that, because of the peculiarity of the way in which the 1973 Act has been amended, and the juxtaposition of the various parts and sections of that Act as amended, it is unfortunately necessary to go about the process of amendment in the way that I have already outlined. I should also say that I have to commend the draftsmen upon their ingenuity in securing the end that was asked of them.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I also commend the ingenuity of the draftsmen. The last time they were faced with this situation, if my memory is right, was in some consequential amendment to the Financial Services Bill, as it then was. We had a section, so to speak, 23 zero. Why the draftsman has to work out a second way round the roundabout I do not quite understand. Whether one calls it 23 alpha or 23 zero, or whatever, there surely must be a clearer way of doing it.
I have heard the explanation. I am sure that there must be a simpler way sometimes of drafting some of our legislation. However, it was an interesting explanation, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Schedule 1, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Morton of Shuna: There is another small point testing the ingenuity of draftsmen. How do we have in paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 the insertion of a new sub-paragraph in paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 of the 1973 Act labelled "(gg)", when the draftsman was well aware that the noble and learned Lord opposite put in by the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1985 Section 12(5), a paragraph (gg)? Should it not be (ggg) or something else?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: The noble Lord is, unfortunately, I have to say, correct. We must move from one horse to a second and, that being so, I shall take note of what the noble Lord has been kind enough to say and that will form the basis of an amendment at a later stage.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Schedules 2 to 4 agreed to.
Schedule 5 [Repeals]:
[Amendment No. 108 not moved.]
Schedule 5 agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with amendments.
House adjourned at thirteen minutes before ten o'clock.

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