Sitting of 13 January 1987

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  BRITISH RAILWAYS (STANSTED) BILL
  Order for Third Reading read.
  To be read the Third time tomorrow.

  DYFED BILL [Lords]
    WEST GLAMORGAN BILL [Lords]
    Read a Second time and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Oral Answers to Questions
    SOCIAL SERVICES

      Hospital Treatment
      Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps he takes to investigate complaints from National Health Service patients about the treatment they receive in National Health Service hospitals.
      The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. Norman Fowler): The investigation of complaints made by National Health Service patients about National Health Service hospital treatment is a matter for the appropriate health authority.
      Mr. Adley: I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Nevetheless, I bring to his attention the fact that some of my hon. Friends and I have received a number of serious complaints about medical decisions taken and treatment received by patients attending the Royal Victoria hospital at Boscombe, which is out with but near my constituency. To my knowledge, at least four deaths were involved, including the death of a relative of an hon. Member. Unfortunately, in spite of my right hon. Friend's answer, the regional health authority appeared to obfuscate behind a smokescreen of anonymity. It was unwilling to arrange a meeting with those concerned and me, and now has even failed to reply to my last letter of 27 November. What redress do members of the public have in the face of this situation?
      Mr. Fowler: In view of what my hon. Friend said, it would be sensible, perhaps, if he were to meet the Minister
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      for Health on this matter. The hospital in question seeks to give a good service, and many people speak highly of it.
      Mr. Nellist: Will the Secretary of State reconsider his earlier answer and extend the requested investigation to the condition of patients before they reach hospital so that it takes account of a number of occurrences in Coventry during the recess? Ambulance services are deteriorating because of the insufficient number of vehicles and crews. One person waited 50 minutes for an ambulance from Solihull because one was not available in Coventry. After suffering a heart attack, that person died before the ambulance could reach him. That was not an isolated incident in the past three or four weeks. What will the Secretary of State do to provide more money for crews and vehicles in Coventry?
      Mr. Fowler: I shall certainly examine the individual case that the hon. Gentleman has raised. Obviously, from what he said, it is a serious issue. I am satisfied that the West Midlands ambulance service is working effectively. Only recently I had the opportunity to see just that.
      Mr. Bill Walker: When my right hon. Friend considers genuine complaints against the National Health Service, will he also bear in mind the thousands of individuals who receive splendid treatment from the National Health Service, myself included? Will he bear in mind the high standard of professionalism, integrity and dedication of the staff of Ninewells hospital? It is largely through their efforts that I am here today.
      Mr. Fowler: I am sure that the whole House is pleased to see my hon. Friend restored and returned to this place. He is right. All the opinion polls of those who have experience of the Health Service show that people are overwhelmingly satisfied with the service that they receive.
      Mr. Meadowcroft: Given that there is generally a high level of satisfaction with the treatment that people receive when they arrive for the appropriate care, will the Secretary of State comment on the problem that arises when people have to wait for treatment by specialists involved with both the private and the National Health Service sectors? Prospective patients are told that if they pay they can be seen more quickly. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that causes great distress to many people?
      Mr. Fowler: Yes, but that is not remotely the general position. Of course, we can have a debate about the situation in both the private and public sectors. As I understand it, the hon. Gentleman's party supports the concept of a private sector. I do not find that the types of complaint he is making are remotely typical of the Health Service.
      Mr. Speller: I should like to take my right hon. Friend back to the first question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Adley) and stress that my hon. Friend is not alone in pointing out the problems of that hospital in Boscombe. Mr. Thomas, the father of one of my constituents, died there in September last year. No satisfaction or information has been obtainable through community health councils or the hospital. Is my right hon. Friend replying to my letter of 6 December to his office? May I associate myself with any meeting held with the Minister for Health as suggested by my right hon. Friend?
      Mr. Fowler: I believe that a reply will be sent to my hon. Friend in the next 24 hours. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister for Health will be delighted to see my hon. Friend in the deputation.

    Sick Pay
    Mrs. Clwydasked the Secretary of State for Social Services from which organisations representations were received asking him to simplify the payment of statutory sick pay.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Nicholas Lyell): Representations have been received from both sides of industry for changes and simplification of the statutory sick pay scheme. They include among employers' organisations the CBI, the Engineering Employers Federation, the National Federation of Self Employed and Small Businesses, the Pay-roll Alliance and the Association of Independent Businesses, and for employees' and consumer organisations, the TUC, the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux and the Disability Alliance.
    Mrs. Clwyd: Is the real reason for cutting out the middle rate of statutory sick pay not simplification, as the Minister said, but savings of £19 million, which yet again have been made at the expense of the sick?
    Mr. Lyell: No. Eighty-five per cent. will receive the standard, which is the higher rate. It does not make sense to have two rates. It is true that there are savings of £19 million—against a background of nearly £750 million—but they will not all be at the expense of the sick because, as the hon. Lady knows, a very high proportion belong to occupational schemes.
    Mrs. Beckett: Surely my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) is correct. What the Minister has said today is wholly contrary to what was said by his Department less than a year ago when it claimed that the system was extremely simple and was working very well. Is not the only explanation the combination of the savings and the Government's desire to placate employers by this change while at the same time introducing statutory maternity pay, which neither employers nor mothers want?
    Mr. Lyell: That is not correct. The system is working well now. There have been strong requests for simplification, not just by employers. The increase in the lower rate will benefit those who receive statutory maternity pay.

    North West Thames Regional Health Authority
    Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he last met the chairman of the North West Thames regional health authority; whether future capital expenditure projects for Bedfordshire were discussed; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister for Health (Mr. Tony Newton): My right hon. Friend was able to discuss capital projects for south Bedfordshire with the chairman of the North West Thames regional health authority at the November meeting of regional chairmen. The regional health authority has provisionally identified expenditure of about £20 million in its capital programme for expenditure in south Bedfordshire.
    Mr. Madel: As there has been a history of under-funding in south Bedfordshire resulting in towns like Leighton Buzzard still not having a hospital, will my hon. Friend join me in urging the North West Thames regional health authority to change its policy and increase capital expenditure to take account of recent and planned increases in population in the south of the county?
    Mr. Newton: As I have told my hon. Friend, the regional health authority has acknowledged the desirability in the longer term of a community hospital at Leighton Buzzard. The authority also feels that additional development at the Luton and Dunstable hospital would be a proper precursor to that. I would hesitate to try to second guess that authority's judgment of the overall local situation.
    Mr. Dobson: Will the funds that the Minister is talking about ensure that there is no recurrence of the five occasions in the past two years when hospitals in Bedfordshire have had to cease taking waiting list patients in order to cope with emergency admissions?
    Mr. Newton: The hon. Gentleman asks a typically irresponsible question. He knows perfectly well that the long-standing and important emergency bed service arrangements necessarily deal with the possibility that non-emergency cases may need to be deferred when emergency cases arise. That is entirely sensible.
    Mr. Robert B. Jones: While obviously not wishing to denigrate in any way any of the hospital developments in Bedfordshire, will my hon. Friend confirm that my constituents in Hemel Hempstead will not be expected to travel to Dunstable or for that matter to Northwick Park in order to get ENT services if capital developments take place in Dunstable?
    Mr. Newton: If my hon. Friend is speaking about the possibility of a new hospital for east Hertfordshire, he will know that such a proposal is being considered by the Department.

    Wrightlington Hospital
    Mr. Robert Atkinsasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he expects to announce his decision on the proposed closure of the Wrightlington hospital children's ward.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Services (Mrs. Edwina Currie): Shortly, Sir.
    Mr. Atkins: Does my hon. Friend recognise that this matter has been going on for a long time and that it will be looked upon as very much a test of the Government's commitment to those in particular need in and around north central Lancashire? The sooner my hon. Friend can make a decision to relieve people of their doubts and worries about the future of the hospital and the services it provides, the better.
    Mrs. Currie: I recognise that, but I would rather take a little longer and get the decision right.
    Mr. Pike: Does the Minister recognise that this matter worries all political parties and, equally, it worries the people of north-east Lancashire, who are anxious to see that there is no detriment to the service provided in this region?
    Mrs. Currie: I recognise that and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. Any decision taken will be taken entirely in the interests of the patients and particularly of the children concerned.

    Heart Diseases
    Mr. Nichollsasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what representations he has received about charges for medication for those suffering from heart diseases; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Newton: Since 1 January 1986 we have received 12 letters from hon. Members and three letters from members of the public about prescription charges for those suffering from heart disease.
    Mr. Nicholls: Does my hon. Friend think it is fair that if a doctor chooses to treat a cardiac patient by surgery that operation and the back-up services are completely free, while if he decided to treat it medically the prescription charges have to be paid? Surely if it is possible to argue in favour of free needles for drug abusers, it should be possible in these circumstances to give free prescriptions to cardiac patients.
    Mr. Newton: I hesitate to accept the proposition that any patient suffering from a condition that might give rise to a need for an operation should automatically receive free prescriptions in advance. I also hesitate to accept the parallel that my hon. Friend seeks to draw with some experimental projects designed to find out whether we can by that means help to curb the spread of the awful disease of AIDS.
    Dr. M. S. Miller: In view of all the difficulties which arise, the various groups, and the number of people who do not pay prescription charges, would it not be better to consider the possibility of eliminating such charges altogether?
    Mr. Newton: The hon. Gentleman must acknowledge that prescription charges and the charges for the season tickets raise well over £100 million a year, which is an important contribution to the NHS budget, so I do not think that I wish to go down that track.

    St. James Hospital
    Mr. Tom Coxasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what discussions he has had with the Wandsworth health authority as to the possible closure of St. James hospital, Balham, SW 12.
    Mrs. Edwina Currie: None, Sir. The matter is still under consideration locally and has not yet come to Ministers.
    Mr. Cox: Is the Minister aware of the utter confusion now existing in Wandsworth because of the incompetence of the Wandsworth health authority in following the correct procedures on consultation and discussion in the community? Is she further aware of the complete opposition in the borough of Wandsworth, even of the Tory-controlled local authority, to the closure of St. James hospital? If public opinion is to mean anything, is it not time that the Wandsworth health authority took note of what the people of Wandsworth are saying and of their desire to keep this hospital open?
    Mrs. Currie: As regards procedures, the porposal to close St. James was agreed at the district health authority
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    meeting on 27 November. It has not yet reached the South West Thames regional health authority, which will consider it on 28 January. If the region, the district and the CHC disagree, it will come to Ministers for consideration. That is the appropriate procedure.
    As regards what the Wandsworth health authority is getting up to and local approval or disapproval of it, will the local people also disapprove of the £17 million to be spent on St. George's hospital, including £800,000 for the accident and emergency departments?
    Mr. Dubs: Does the Minister agree that there is enormous pressure on hospital places, both in the Wandsworth area and in south London in general, and that this, combined with the inability of the Department of Health and Social Services to predict the extra places that will be needed as a result of a likely increase in the number of AIDS patients, makes it irresponsible to consider the closure of a major hospital at this stage?
    Mrs. Currie: The difficulty, as I understand it, is that St. James will need a very substantial sum of money spent on it very soon—about £12 million. The question is whether London patients are better served by spending money on an old hospital that might not suit their needs much longer or spending it on developing new and expanded services elsewhere in the same district.

    Severe Weather Payments
    Mr. Maddenasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will reconsider the trigger temperature of—1·5°C for severe weather payments.
    The Minister for Social Security and the Disabled (Mr. Major): It is our firm expectation that the trigger point for severe weather payments will be reached throughout the country this week. In view of this and of the unprecedented cold weather, I wish to make it clear today that the extra payment of £5 will be made to everyone in the qualifying groups for this week. These groups are householders on supplementary benefit with someone in their family who is 65 or over, chronically sick or disabled or under two. The Government are determined that vulnerable groups should know without delay where they stand, so that they will not be discouraged from heating their homes during this very cold spell. In the unlikely event that not all the areas reach the trigger point, action will be taken to validate the payments made.
    Mr. Madden: Will the Minister accept—[HON. MEMBERS: "Thank him."]
    Mr. Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Madden: Will the Minister accept that there are pensioners who are literally scared to death that they will be unable to pay the bills for the fuel required to heat their homes properly? Does he not also recognise—I believe that he has in his answer—that what is required is for all pensioners to be confident that they will have sufficient money throughout the winter months to pay their bills and heat their homes properly? That is what lies behind our suggestion that all pensioners on supplementary benefit should receive £5 a week from mid-December to March to enable them to pay their bills in the winter months.
    Will the Minister observe some modesty in his claims about his Government's efforts on behalf of pensioners,

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    bearing in mind that single pensioners, because of the break of the link between pensions, earnings and prices, have to date lost £8 a week and married pensioners £12·75?
    Mr. Major: We are absolutely determined that vulnerable groups should keep warm, which is why I have made the statement that I have just made. That is why we have increased each of the three tiers of special help for heating: supplementary benefits; the heating additions, which we have extended and widened and made statutory; and, for the first time, the introduction of a statutory entitlement to a cold weather payment. Each of the three tiers of help has been increased by the Government because we are absolutely determined that the vulnerable groups shall have the confidence to keep warm in this weather. That is also why, in these special circumstances of unprecedented cold weather, I have made the announcement today, before the trigger point has been reached, so that people may have the confidence to keep warm.
    Mr. Hirst: Is my hon. Friend aware that his announcement will be warmly welcomed by many of my constituents, not least those who live in outlying rural areas who frequently experience much lower temperatures than the trigger or monitoring point for Strathclyde region? While I very much welcome what he has done, can he give any hope that we can, without cumbersome buraucracy, find ways of accommodating people in outlying rural areas, who frequently experience lower temperatures?
    Mr. Major: I think I demonstrated a flexibility in the last few moments that my hon. Friend might not have anticipated. We share the concern. That is why I made the statement. Since my hon. Friend's constituents will be paticularly concerned about this, I should add that it will be widely advertised over the next few days, not least, I trust, by the media, who have shown some interest in the matter.
    Mr. Winnick: Is the Minister aware that although what he has announced is some small relief, there are still many pensioners who are not eligible to claim it? Moreover, does not the scheme as it operates at the moment help only those with less than £500 capital and those on certain categories of supplementary benefit? Does the Minister not recognise that there are many elderly people on small incomes, not claiming supplementary benefit, but perhaps just a bit above the limit, who will not get any help? Is it not also disgraceful that from next year all heating additions are to be abolished, including even this scheme which has been triggered?
    Mr. Major: The hon. Gentleman is being typically mealy-mouthed. I invite him to recollect that heating additions, which amount to over £400 million a year, have been widened and extended and made a statutory entitlement under this Government, and that during the period of Labour Governments there was no statutory entitlement to exceptionally severe cold weather payments. The winters in those days were equally cold and the hon. Gentleman's conscience is a very late arrival.
    Mr. Michael Marshall: Does my hon. Friend accept that his news today will be welcomed, but that some of us are still concerned that the formula which is part of the system at present may cause him difficulty? Will he keep an open mind in considering the system itself in future?
    Mr. Major: My mind on flexibility concerning regulations is ever open.
    Mr. Wallace: of course, the Minister is right when he says that vulnerable groups should know where they stand. Is it not the case that during the last 72 hours of bitterly cold weather, until he made his announcement a few moments ago these vulnerable groups did not know where they stood? Could this not go on for several weeks throughout the winter? Are we to have the Minister coming to the Dispatch Box perhaps once a week to indicate whether in that week people will get the £5 addition? Is that not a mean amount, considering the cold that people have suffered, particularly in the remote areas where transport costs mean that the additional expenditure of this week will be far more than £5 will cover?
    Mr. Major: The hon. Gentleman clearly does not understand the basic method of assisting vulnerable groups with heating costs. The essential assistance comes, first, in the supplementary benefit rates and, secondly, in the specific heating additions which we have extended, widened and made a regular weekly entitlement for 52 weeks of the year for vulnerable groups. That is what is expected to meet their heating bills. When the weather is unexpectedly severe, this Government, for the first time, have made available special extra help to underpin and help pay the bills that will subsequently come in. The hon. Gentleman should welcome that.
    Mr. Cockeram: Is it not the case that the Conservative party first introduced this payment and that therefore by their bleatings the Labour party is shedding mere crocodile tears, otherwise it would have taken steps when it had the power to do so?
    Mr. Major: I think that the main concern of my hon. Friend and of everyone on the Conservative Benches is to ensure that the elderly and the vulnerable are protected by having adequate heating. My hon. Friend has made a perfectly fair and valid political point. We have acted to help with heating costs. When the Labour party was in power, it did not do so.
    Mr. James Lamond: Now that the Minister has been forced by the sheer logic of events to jettison one of the main regulations with regard to the heating allowance, is it not sensible that he should look at the other petty regulations that were outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) in relation to the amount of capital a recipient can have in the bank, money probably set aside for the recipient's funeral?
    Can the Minister not find a better location for the taking of temperatures than those that have been allocated? For example, in my constituency people have been suffering as a result of snowfalls for a considerable time, while the temperature at Manchester airport is the figure that is taken to trigger the extra allowance.
    Mr. Major: I have not jettisoned the regulations. I have told the House that I expect that the regulations will be triggered and, to avoid uncertainty about vulnerable groups, I have made the statement at a very early stage. In relation to the hon. Gentleman's point about the £500 qualifying capital limit, that is not novel to this benefit. I remind him that during the period of the Labour Government the figure was £200, and that only at the very end of their term in office was it £300.
    Mr. Heatheoat-Amory: The measure announced by my hon. Friend is to be welcomed. In addition, will he give attention to home improvement, and in particular home insulation? On the face of it, he is subsiding heat loss through uninsulated roofs and pipes. In a quieter moment, will he get together with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and work out a scheme to replace the revenue lost with longer-term capital improvements?
    Mr. Major: Such discussions are already in hand. My hon. Friend gives me an adequate and welcome opportunity to mention and praise the work of the neighbourhood energy action groups, which have provided 360 local home insulation projects, 6,000 voluntary workers and a substantial amount of insulation for the homes of people who are especially needy. People who may perhaps need information about that may call the free telephone number 0800 234 8000.
    Mr. Meacher: Does not the Minister's statement show that the trigger of minus 1·5 deg C was wrongly set at an absurdly low figure? Why is he not withdrawing the scheme altogether? Is he aware that payment of £5 for one week only in no way comes near to meeting need after the worst January weather on record? Is he further aware that if pensions had been increased in line with earnings, as they were under the previous Labour Government, the single pension today would be £8 a week higher and the married pension £12 a week higher, and there would be no need for bureaucratic and cumbersome schemes such as this, which are first on and then off, because of their sheer inhumanity? Will he say that he will pay £5 a week automatically, as of right, for every week during this winter, as the Labour party proposes?
    Mr. Major: My statement reveals precisely what I have said, that I expect that a trigger point will be reached this week and people may now plan in that confident expectation. I will review the position again at the beginning of next week. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's other remarks, he may say what he likes about previous pension provision. He should bear in mind that if he continues to promote programmes to spend something like £28 billion a year while raising £3·6 billion through taxation. he will not meet those programmes.
    Mr. Kennedy: I welcome the Minister's sensible announcement, which is the right announcement to make. However, as this entire scheme has become something of an annual shambles, will he consider two factors? First, will he consider changing the trigger degree to zero rather than minus 1·5 deg C? Secondly, instead of having to make special statements such as the one he has made today, will he make automatic payment to all those in the qualifying categories so that people do not have to make special application?
    Mr. Major: There is already automatic payment for assistance with heating. It is the heating additions to which I have made frequent reference in the past. I make no secret of the fact that there have been difficulties with the discretionary scheme. It was precisely for that reason that we made it a statutory entitlement.

    Hospitals (Non-admission)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many cases have occurred in the last 12
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    months for which figures are available of patients in acute pain being refused admittance to National Health Service hospitals.
    Mr. Newton: It is for the responsible doctor to decide whether, in his clinical judgment, a patient needs to be admitted to hospital. Statistics are not kept on patients who, in the doctor's clinical judgment, do not require admission, but 50 per cent. of patients judged to need admission are admitted immediately.
    Mr. Janner: Does the Minister not understand that that is a pathetic failure to answer a perfectly reasonable question? Is it not right to say that there are hundreds of thousands of people who are awaiting treatment in our hospitals—8,000 of whom in Leicestershire are awaiting in-patient treatment and 15,000 awaiting out-patient treatment—and that the Government are proposing to allocate only £50 million, spread over two years, to meet this need? That is an election gimmick. What do the Government intend to do to provide adequate hospital treatment for people who are in acute need?
    Mr. Newton: If the hon. and learned Gentleman looks at my answer, he will see that it was a perfectly sensible answer to his rather obscure question. On his basic point, the £50 million waiting list fund—from which I hope it will be possible to provide some help to the Leicestershire district health authority, but that will depend on our discussions with the region—will be in support of the effective efforts that authorities are already making; for example, their plans to bring additional theatres into use.
    Mr. Beaumont-Dark: Does my hon. Friend agree that there are many people who suffer acute pain for many years, whether it be from varicose veins or other problems, who would be better served if money were spent on helping them instead of it being spent on much of the transplant surgery of today, in which surgeons are more inclined to be concerned with their own reputations and macho image? Would it not be better for that money to be spent helping those who are in pain rather than just upon transplant surgery? Should there not be a separate budget instead of money often being wasted on improving surgeons' reputations?
    Mr. Newton: One of the difficulties that faces all Health Ministers is that of drawing a balance in all health authorities between the different considerations to which my hon. Friend has referred.
    Dr. Marek: Does the Minister agree that doctors are there to treat patients; in particular, patients who are in acute pain? Will he stop the practice whereby doctors spend a considerable proportion of their time, not on treating the sick, but on telephoning other National Health Service hospitals to find out whether they can admit their patients?
    Mr. Newton: I have already said that we regard it as important to reduce waiting lists and times. I believe that there are both administrative and other actions that can help towards that end, which we are trying to encourage.

    Hospital Waiting Lists
    Mrs. Roeasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps the Government have taken to help ease hospital waiting lists.
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he has any new plans to reduce hospital waiting lists.
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the progress in the reduction of hospital waiting lists.
    Mr. Fowler: Health authorities share the Government's commitment to make further substantial improvements in waiting lists and times. They have developed and are now implementing urgent programmes of action. They will be greatly helped in this by the £50 million waiting list fund.
    Mrs. Roe: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his reply. Does he recognise that one of the features of medical treatment in the National Health Service that causes the greatest irritation to patients is the length of time that they often have to wait in doctors' surgeries? Has any review of practices within the National Health Service included advice to help to overcome this problem?
    Mr. Fowler: Yes, there is irritation, although my impression is that in recent years, the position has improved quite substantially. However, waiting time is certainly one of the problems that we want to deal with.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister appreciate that, due to the present weather conditions, there will be severe pressure on hospital services? Does he further appreciate that in certain areas this pressure now extends into spring and mid-autumn—Mid Glamorgan is a case in point? Does the Minister recognise that, ultimately, it is a matter of inadequate funding? It is becoming more apparent every day that the NHS is not safe in the hands of this Government?
    Mr. Fowler: I do not remotely accept that. The fact is that under this Government more patients—in-patients, day patients and out-patients—are being treated than at any time in the history of the Health Service. That shows the Government's commitment to the NHS.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Is it not true that one way in which the Government have been able to reduce NHS waiting lists is by forcing health authorities to place their patients in private hospitals paid for by the NHS? If the money is available, why is it not spent on doing up Health Service buildings and ensuring that there are a sufficient number of consultants to carry out operations within the NHS?
    Mr. Fowler: The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. There have been contracts with the private sector and with voluntary hospitals since the inception of the National Health Service, and those contracts were operating under the Labour Government.
    Mr. John Mark Taylor: Does my right hon. Friend agree that a permanent solution to the waiting lists of the East Birmingham hospital is the earliest possible commissioning of the district general hospital at Solihull?
    Mr. Fowler: I think that that will make a substantial contribution to east Birmingham and Birmingham as a whole. The go-ahead for the Solihull hospital has been welcomed locally.
    Mr. Pavitt: Will the Secretary of State hold an inquiry into the closure of acute beds and the effect on waiting lists? Is he aware that one of the quickest ways of securing
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    savings in this fiscal year is to close acute beds? All the hospitals of North-West Thames authority have been engaged in this process. Will he examine this?
    Mr. Fowler: No, Sir, I will not hold an inquiry. The fact is that between 1974 and 1979 the average number of available beds fell by some 7,000 a year, but now, under this Government, that fall, on average, is about 6,000 a year. On the basis of the measures quoted by the hon. Member for Brent, South (Mr. Pavitt), the position was considerably worse under the Labour Government.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the lengths of orthopaedic waiting lists are especially worrying? Therefore, will he have a special word with the profession, in particular the consultants, to ensure that they fully honour their commitment to the NHS? That would reduce orthopaedic waiting lists. Certainly in the Macclesfield area the list is unacceptably high at present.
    Mr. Fowler: My hon. Friend is substantially right in what he has said about the worrying nature of those waiting lists. I believe that our consultants are certainly committed in wanting to reduce waiting lists. I further believe that the new initiative, the £50 million waiting list fund, will make a further contribution to reducing those lists.
    Mr. Meacher: Is the Secretary of State aware that the cut of 36,000 NHS beds under this Government has already caused a substantial lengthening of waiting lists and leaves no reserve for absorbing the influx of elderly people because of the extreme cold at this time of the year? Is the Secretary of State aware that hospitals in London and the south-east are already turning away serious operation cases because they cannot cope with the number of elderly people being admitted with hypothermia, broncho-pneumonia, heart attacks or strokes? Does he realise that, because of the Government's policy of cuts, it now means that the NHS simply cannot cope with epidemics or health crises such as the present one?
    Mr. Fowler: I do not accept anything of what the hon. Gentleman has just said. It is a well-known fact that the closure of beds went on at a far faster pace under the Labour Government than under this Government. The Labour Government closed a record number of beds per year. Under that Government the NHS treated fewer patients, and when they handed over to us the NHS had the biggest and longest waiting list in its history.

    Trent Regional Health Authority
    Mr. Flanneryasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what representations he has received about the funding of the Trent regional health authority; and if he will make a statement.
    Mrs. Currie: We have received many representations about the funding of the Trent regional health authority. Trent is one of the regions that has received priority for funds, and I am glad to tell the House that this year—1987–88—it will be receiving £926 million, which represents a very substantial increase indeed.
    Mr. Flannery: If one takes the resource allocation working party target as being 100 per cent., which is what it always is, is it not a fact that the Trent regional health authority is the lowest-funded authority in the United Kingdom, and that many regional health authorities in the

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    south receive as much as 12 per cent. more and as much as 8 per cent. above the target? That means that the great city of Sheffield falls below that target of 100 per cent. by at least £6 million. As a result, hospital waiting lists throughout the area, which the Minister herself lives in, are increasing because of under-funding. She should be fighting for more money to help the situation.
    Mrs. Currie: On the contrary, the amount of money allocated to Sheffield has increased from £122 million to £153 million, and waiting lists in the area are being tackled very effectively, with a number of new sessions and consultants. I am satisfied that Sheffield is getting what it should get this year and is making very good use of that money.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Sir Richard Armstrong—Mr. Chapman Pincher (Correspondence)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister if she will place in the Library a copy of all correspondence conducted on her behalf between Sir Robert Armstrong and Mr. Chapman Pincher.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): It remains inappropriate to comment on matters in issue in the Peter Wright case in Australia. I also intend to follow the precedent set by previous Governments of not commenting on security matters.
    Mr. Dalyell: By what method did a Government agency first obtain the page proofs of "Their Trade is Treachery"? This is not exactly related to the current case.
    The Prime Minister: The answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is covered by my first reply.
    Mr. Adley: Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to thank the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) for constantly parading his political obsessions before us? Does she agree that they may account for the current standing in public opinion of the Labour party and its leader?
    The Prime Minister: I am very grateful for the fact that I am not responsible for the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell).
    Mr. Benn: Now that the Cabinet documents for 1956 have been published and are, therefore, no longer covered by any matter relating to immediate security, and now that it is clear that there was collusion then with the Israeli Government, and that—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This is not an open question. The question on the Order Paper is specifically about correspondence conducted between Sir Robert Armstrong and Mr. Chapman Pincher.
    Mr. Benn: But with great respect, Mr. Speaker, one of the points referred to by Mr. Peter Wright in the book that is being suppressed is the attempt by MI6 to assassinate Colonel Nasser.

    Engagements
    Mr. Snapeasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 13 January.
    The Prime Minister: This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be having further meetings later today.
    Mr. Snape: Will the Prime Minister find time today to initiate a proper and long-term review of severe weather payments? Will she look, in particular, at the £500 limit? Does she favour thrift, or does she not?
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, severe weather payments were brought in under this Government. They are paid on top of the heating addition allowance, which amounts to some £400 million a year, compared with £90 million under the previous Labour Government. The hon. Gentleman will also be aware of the statement made earlier today by my hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security:
    "It is our firm expectation that the trigger point for severe weather payments will be reached throughout the country this week. In view of this and of the unprecedented cold weather, I wish to make it clear today that the extra payment of £5 will be made to everyone in the qualifying groups for this week."
    I find it encouraging that even Labour Members expect and receive a much higher standard of heating benefit for the elderly from a Conservative Government than they ever got from a Labour Government.
    Mr. Hind: Will my right hon. Friend take time during the course of her busy day to look at much of the press comment about the takeover bid by BTR for Pilkington? Will she bear in mind, especially in the light of the arguments about the north-south divide, the importance of Pilkington to the north-west region and have words today with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and urge him to refer that takeover bid to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission?
    The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend said, that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, who must wait to receive advice from the Director General of Fair Trading.
    Mr. Kinnock: The announcement by the Minister earlier today on severe weather payments was welcome, but an admission of the—[Interruption.] We are glad to get anything we can for old people who are cold. The announcement was welcome, but was an admission of the utter incompetence of the present system offered by the Prime Minister. Does she recognise that that is a hopelessly inadequate way of trying to remove the gross deficiencies of a pathetically bad system and one recognised as such by organisations representing old people as well as by the old themselves? Must we wait for weekly announcements from Ministers so that the old and the cold can live without fear of freezing? Why does the Prime Minister not scrap the present absurdly bureaucratic and inadequate system and introduce one that provides secure and consistent help to those most in need and which responds to the realities of age, cold, and a deep fear of paying bills?
    The Prime Minister: First, there was no system of severe weather payments under the Labour Government. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman expects a better standard of care from Conservative Governments than his own could possibly have given.
    Secondly, the present system was referred to the Social Security Advisory Committee, which gave general support to the main elements of our proposals. It said:

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    "The proposals submitted to us represent a significant improvement on the previous scheme for exceptionally severe weather payments, in terms of simplicity, comprehensibility and certainty of payment."
    Thirdly, when we have a totally unprecedented level of low temperatures of the sort that we have experienced recently, which were lower than ever before except in 1940, we are indeed anxious, and will waive the strict bureaucratic procedures in order—[Interruption.] That is precisely what my hon. Friend—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order.
    The Prime Minister: Hon. Members do not wish to hear the truth of what has happened. Yes, we were anxious to waive the bureaucracy. As my hon. Friend the Minister said:
    "I wish to make it clear today that the extra payment of £5 will be made to everyone in the qualifying groups for this week… The Government are determined that vulnerable groups should know without delay where they stand, so that they will not be discouraged from heating their homes during this very cold spell."
    That is an excellent record and an excellent decision.
    Mr. Kinnock: The people at risk, of whom there are many thousands, do not want a distorted history lesson from the Prime Minister. They want help with their heating and all her recitations from Committee minutes do not fill any bellies or warm any homes. Will the Prime Minister answer my question? Are we to wait for weekly announcements of adjustments in an incompetent policy, or will she get rid of her stupid system?
    The Prime Minister: I have two further points in reply to the right hon. Gentleman. The last time that we had extremely severe weather was in 1978–79, and the heating additions then were £90 million. Today they are £400 million. At that time the Labour Government were in office and not one right hon. or hon. Gentleman raised the matter at Question Time with his own Government. Furthermore, may I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the other danger to the elderly of having insufficient heat was during the coal strike, which he supported.
    Mr. Kinnock: Will the Prime Minister now—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order.
    Mr. Kinnock: Now, Mr. Prime Minister—[Laughter.] I am anticipating events. Will the Prime Minister now answer the question? Must we wait for a weekly announcement, or will the right hon. Lady help old people directly and consistently? Does she not recall that last year she defended that incompetent system? This year she is defending this mess. How many additional old people must die before she changes her policy?
    The Prime Minister: The comparison is as follows: under the Labour Government £90 million—[Interruption.] I shall say what is happening now. [Interruption.] Obviously, the right hon. Gentleman does not want me to make the comparison. The comparison is heating additions of £90 million a year under a Labour Government with £400 million a year under this Conservative Government; no severe weather payments under that Labour Government, with generous severe weather payments under this Government, with arrangements that have just been modified to ensure that
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    pensioners receive it; and the coal strike under Labour that deprived old people of heat, and resistance to that from a Tory Government.

    York
    Mr. Gregoryasked the Prime Minister if she has any plans to make an official visit to York,.
    The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to do so.
    Mr. Gregory: Will my right hon. Friend praise the railway work force in York, which has achieved, both on the administrative and the engineering sides, such solid benefits? Furthermore, will she confirm that under the Conservative Government, in real terms, a great deal more investment is going into the railways, amounting to more than £414 million per annum, compared with a derisory £343·5 million per annum under Labour?
    The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend is aware, the Government have fully recognised the importance of the railways and since we took office British Rail has invested a total of £3 billion in modernising the railways. We are now seeing the largest ever programme for new trains. In the past three years the Government have approved nearly £1 billion of investment in major railway projects, such as the east coast main line electrification scheme. It is for those in this country to compete for new orders, and it is for British Rail to decide where the contracts are given.
    Mr. Cartwrightasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 13 January.

    Engagements
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Cartwright: Does the Prime Minister agree that in the present appalling weather we should be concerned, not only about the elderly, but about the growing number of homeless young people, of whom there are literally hundreds living rough in London alone, with council housing and private rented housing denied to them? What hope can the Government give to that growing band of homeless youngsters?
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, there are a large number of council houses vacant, including some in London. Some have been vacant for over a year and one would hope that they will soon be used to house those who need them. There are legislative provisions for dealing with homelessness which bear on the duties of local authorities.
    Mr. Robert B. Jones: Will my right hon. Friend find time in her busy day to congratulate Crosfield Electronics in my constituency on having trebled its turnover from £60 million to nearly £200 million in three years, breaking into Japan with about 35 per cent. of the market, and having 35 per cent. of the European market and 35 per cent. of the American market, won against local competition, for computer-aided technology? Is that not a great achievement?
    The Prime Minister: I know the factory to which my hon. Friend refers. I visited it about a year ago, when my hon. Friend was present. It is an impressive firm with extremely impressive achievements which have been of great benefit to its people and to the whole of Britain. I congratulate the company and wish it well in the future.
    Mr. Steel: Further to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright), will the Prime Minister recognise that the charity Crisis at Christmas had a record number of young homeless to deal with this Christmas at its soup kitchens and shelters? If, as the right hon. Lady says, there is housing available in London, will she take the time to go and look at the cardboard city on the south bank, and will she ask her Ministers to take action on the issue, which is a growing scandal?
    The Prime Minister: I join the right hon. Gentleman in congratulating the charity Crisis at Christmas, which is helped by an enormous number of people. It ran a very impressive and helpful operation which brought joy to many people. In London about 28,000 homes are empty and 10,000 of them are vacant for more than a year. That has been a problem for several years and from time to time I read out the number of empty houses. Some of them are being done up for new tenants; others seem to have been empty for a very long time.
    Mr. Kinnock: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is imperative that the House has the opportunity to debate the subject of severe weather payments, because thousands of people, including the constitiuents of Conservative Members. are at risk and are desperate to be able to maintain heating in their homes. [Interruption.] There is a crisis of cold in Britain that affects many old and poor people and it is not changed by the announcement that we have heard this afternoon. [Interruption.] This House must attend to that subject and I therefore want to inform you, Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I may have lost my voice, but I want to be able to hear what is being said.
    Mr. Kinnock: For those reasons, Mr. Speaker, I want to inform you that tomorrow the Opposition intend to devote the whole of their Opposition day to debates on the condition of the old and the cold, and the problem of fuel poverty, which will endure much longer than the validity of today's announcement and still leave a basic crisis of poverty and loneliness to be answered. We shall, of course, return quickly to the failure of the Government's eonomic policies. However, anyone who knows of the fear which is now gripping so many thousands of our old people in this country must recognise the primacy of this issue for consideration by this House.
    Mr. Biffen: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In many parts of the House there will be an appreciation of the topicality of the subject that has been chosen for tomorrow. I should like also to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the indication that there will be a debate on the economy because this House, especially Conservative Members, have a vested interest in that subject being debated as early as possible and in as much depth as possible. Therefore, I undertake to do my best to see that a day is made available.
    Mr. Frank Cook: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I simply ask you to contrast the reception that was given to the Leader of the House as against that given to the Leader of the Opposition.
    Mr. Conway: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the fact that the Leader of the Opposition simply wants to run away from the economic debate, and
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    should not the House be aware that on 2 December the Opposition were not even here for the debate.—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a matter for me.
    Mr. Madden: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I raise the fact that this morning the Bracknell Met Office refused to give information about temperatures, on the ground that such information was politically contentious? I understand that the DHSS has a contract with the Met service about supplying information on temperatures. I am sure that you would be concerned as much as we would be if there were to be any suggestion that the DHSS has leant on the Met service to withhold information about temperatures. As it seems from the—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot see that what goes on at the Bracknell Met Office is anything to do with me. It is a matter that could quite legitmately, and perhaps even should, be mentioned in the debate tomorrow.
    Mr. Andrew MacKay: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the Member representing Bracknell and the Met Office, I know that a large number of my constituents who serve at the Met Office would deeply resent the remarks that have just been made by the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) and I ask him to withdraw them.
    Mr. Beaumont-Dark: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We all accept that what the Leader of the Opposition had to say was about an important subject. However, if the House is to be run in a civilised and proper way, a point of order has to be either a proper point of order or it is nothing. It is either a personal statement or a request. What the Leader of the Opposition said was surely not a point of order, in the widest use of the words. Is this House to be run properly or for the use of the Opposition?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. As far as I am aware, no subject for tomorrow's debate had been announced in the House, and I think that it was for the general convenience of the House, as the Leader of the House indicated, to know exactly what the subject tomorrow is to be.
    Mr. Hoyle: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it not have been better for the Minister, in making his announcement on severe weather payments, instead of relying on a fortuitous question from an Opposition Member, to have made the statement at the end of questions? That would have been fairer to you, Mr. Speaker, and would have allowed all hon. Members with an interest in the elderly to make a contribution.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. These are matters that should legitimately be raised tomorrow in the debate, which I now understand is to last a full day. If the hon. Member for Warrington, North (Mr. Hoyle) is fortunate, he can raise that point then.
    Mr. Dykes: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Because of your loss of voice, I am sorry to ask you to guide the House further. Manifestly, the comment of the Leader of the Opposition was not a point of order. [Interruption.] I am sorry to go on, but this is an important point to do with defending the interests of the House. Having an altercation with people outside Indian restaurants is one thing, but obviously for the Leader of the Opposition having an altercation with the Prime Minister is much more difficult. We understand that.

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    However, he should not use a bogus point of order as an excuse to continue a debate. Since the Opposition's humbug on this issue has been shown as a result of the Government's announcement, should not a change of business be announced through the usual channels by the Leader of the House?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Let me clear this matter. Before we adjourned for the Christmas recess, no subject for the Opposition day had been announced. As far as I am aware, since I do not receive party Whips, no subject has yet been announced. I think that it was for the general convenience of the House to know—[Interruption.] Order. The House has to know in some way or another. The only way in which it can be told is if the subject is announced by a member of the Opposition. It was perfectly legitimate to do that.
    Mr. Skinner: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In order to try to clarify the issue, is it not a fact that during this Session and the previous Session the Leader of the House, on more than one occasion, has introduced a business statement under the guise of a point of order and it has been accepted by you?
    We have all noticed that your voice is breaking, Mr. Speaker. You sound like the House of Commons' answer to Aled Jones. If this turns into any form of acute pain, will you assure the House that you will use a National Health Service hospital and not follow the Prime Minister and use a private one?
    Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his concern about my health. However, my eyesight is fine, my hearing is fine and my memory is very good.
    Mr. Dickens: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When you opened the proceedings this afternoon you said something similar to what you have just repeated—that you had trouble with your voice, but that your eyes were sharp. May we all be assured that you have had a good look at those who have taken advantage of your voice this afternoon?
    Mr. Madden: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I have dealt with one point of order from the hon. Gentleman. If he has another, I shall take it, but not if it deals with the same subject.
    Mr. Madden: The Library cannot advise me who is ministerially responsible for the Met Office. If we wish to obtain information about temperatures, will the Table Office accept questions that the Met Office in Bracknell is apparently refusing to answer if they are made to the Department of the Environment, which is the Met Office's best guess as to who is the Minister responsible?
    Mr. Speaker: I suggest that the hon. Member tries that out on the Table Office. I am sure that he will be given good advice.

Rate Support Grant
3.41 pm
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the rate support grant settlement for 1987–88 and selective rate limitation for local authorities in England.
When I made my announcement about relevant and total expenditure on 16 December, I said that no further rate support grant reports could be made until validating legislation had been approved by Parliament to allow decisions to be taken in line with the practice which had hitherto been adopted. I also said that I would make a further announcement about rate support grant when the House returned in January. I am today announcing my firm intentions for the 1987–88 settlement for England and for the supplementary reports for 1986–87 and 1985–86. These intentions are based on the powers I am taking in the Local Government Finance Bill. Copies of the explanatory material and the rate limits proposed in that Bill are being sent to local authorities today and are available in the Library and the Vote Office. Authorities will be able to plan their budgets and rates for 1987–88 with confidence. I shall make the relevant reports, and designated authorities will be notified of their rate and precept limits immediately the Local Government Finance Bill receives Royal Assent.
The consultation which has preceded the 1987–88 settlement has been much more extensive than in previous years. I have considered very carefully the comments which the local authority associations have made to me, and the many representations received from individual local authorities. I do not intend to make any major changes to my proposals of 3 December.
I deal first with the main features of the 1987–88 settlement. Since 3 December I have received further information on capital allocations for 1987–88 and about some authorities' budgets for 1986–87. This information has been taken into account in the figures I am announcing today. The figures also take into account expected higher spending by some rate and precept limited authorities to reflect the provisions of the Local Government Finance Bill. The consequence of these changes is to increase slightly the grant entitlements of most local authorities.
The aggregate of Exchequer grant to authorities will be set at the level I announced in July, £12,842 million, which is an increase of over £1 billion or 9 per cent. over the level included in the settlement for the current financial year.
My estimate of aggregate total expenditure in 1987–88 is £24,703 million. Provision for local authority current expenditure will be set at £25,251 million; this is 13 per cent. more than at settlement last year and £40 million higher than previously proposed to take account of the later information. In addition, the Government will, as the House knows, make available additional provision and grant when there is a settlement on teachers' pay which meets our requirements on cost, pay structure, and duties.
There are plenty of opportunities for authorities to reduce their expenditure, for example, by putting out services to competitive tendering or by implementing the many savings identified by the Audit Commission. I intend therefore that the aggregate of authorities' grant-related
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expenditure assessments should not be uplifted by the full increase in expenditure provision but should be held broadly steady in real terms.
I intend to specify the same principles for GREs as were proposed in the 3 December consultation paper. The most significant change from 1986–87 is that the police GRE will be distributed on the basis of police establishments.
I intend that the slope of the grant-related poundage schedule will stay the same as this year. This will provide an incentive for authorities to restrain their expenditure.
As usual there will be arrangements to limit the impact of year-on-year changes on individual authorities grant entitlements. It is my intention that there should be a limit on block grant losses of 7p at ratepayer level and a limit of 12p on gains.
In July, I announced my intention to introduce legislation which would provide local authorities with greater certainty about their grant entitlement. A Bill will be introduced shortly to abolish the arrangements known as grant recycling whereby grant not claimed is redistributed to all authorities. In future, an authority's grant will depend on its own expenditure and not on the expenditure of all other authorities. At the same time, the abolition of grant recycling will mean a tougher regime for high spending authorities which will no longer receive a paradoxical and unconvenanted benefit through recycling.
Local authorities can claim the full amount of grant if they spend in line with the settlement spending assumption. We have increased the amount of Exchequer grant by over £1 billion for next year, and authorities have a very clear choice about whether to be prudent and claim their entitlement or to spend up and lose grant.
I shall make the third supplementary report for 1985–86 and the first supplementary report for 1986–87 when I make the main rate support grant report. It is my intention that the supplementary report for 1985–86 will adjust grant to take account of provisional outturn expenditure and certain changes in education pool contributions. Most authorities have brought their spending closer to target, and as a result £385 million of grant so far withheld for 1985–86 will be paid out. The supplementary report for 1986–87 will distribute the block grant underclaim of some £618 million consequent upon the estimates of total expenditure received from authorities on or before 19 December. My predecessor guaranteed that at least £500 million of grant would be recycled in the first supplementary report for 1986–87. This report will therefore honour that guarantee.
I now turn to the authorities selected for rate limitation in 1987–88. The House will know, from my statement on 16 December and from yesterday's debate on the Second Reading of the Local Government Finance Bill, that rate limitation is to be dealt with—for 1987–88 only—in accordance with the terms of the proposed legislation.
The Department is today writing to the 20 high-spending authorities selected for rate limitation, informing them individually of the rate limit figure which flows from the Local Government Finance Bill and my intention for rate support grant. Each of those councils will therefore be able to set its rate in good time before 1 April, within the figure being notified to it.
In the case of the 20 joint authorities which are automatically selected for precept limitation under the Local Government Act 1985, Departments with responsibility for those authorities will be writing to them with similar information about the precept limits produced by

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the formulae in the Bill. The present system of local government finance is short on accountability and long on complexity. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
Our Green Paper proposals will replace it. While the present system lasts, I commend this settlement to the House as the best that can be achieved. Prudent and responsible local authorities which contain their expenditure can keep rate increases low. The Government are providing more than an extra £1 billion in grant. How much rates will rise is for the local authorities; they have the opportunity to keep the rates low this year. If authorities choose to spend high, it will be their fault that the rates go up. In the profligate high-spending authorities, ratepayers will benefit considerably from the important protections provided by rate limitation.
Dr. John Cunningham: The Secretary of State made a long and complicated statement, but I can begin—as can all my right hon. and hon. Friends—by joining him in his condemnation of the present rate support grant system—a system that is solely the creation of the Government and all those hon. Members who said, "Hear, hear" to the Secretary of State's comments. They voted for the system and have supported it since its creation.
Is the Secretary of State aware that, because of the Government's incompetence, major problems and uncertainties for all local authorities result from the especially late statement that he has made on rate support grant? There will be particular difficulties for those authorities snared by the Rates Act 1984. Is he aware also that, in his treatment of those authorities, there is no natural justice and a denial of the promises made to the House by the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin), not only in piloting the legislation through the House, but in subsequent letters to local authorities and to me as the shadow Environment Secretary? What has the right hon. Gentleman to say to the House about that matter?
Is the Secretary of State aware that the Local Government Finance Bill, which was given a Second Reading yesterday, is complex and difficult? In his statement, he assumed that the Bill will go through the House and, more important perhaps, through another place without a single change or amendment being made to it. Is that not a breathtakingly arrogant assumption to make, given the nature of the legislation?
Will the Secretary of State recognise that his decision to maintain grant at 46 per cent. of expenditure shows the beginnings of recognition by the Government of the validity of local government spending? Why has it taken seven years for this recognition to arrive on the Treasury Bench, especially since, in those seven years, cuts of £17·5 billion have been made in rate support grant? Why does the right hon. Gentleman seek to disguise the end of grant recycling and its implications? Is he not aware that Mr. Brian Tanner, the county treasurer of Somerset, has forecast that the end of grant recycling will reduce his often-mentioned extra £1 billion by at least £400 million? Is he aware that many other people in local government view the reduction as likely to be more than half the extra money he boasts about? Is he not seeking to disguise that fact because the Treasury plans to recoup at least half the extra money he claims to provide to local authorities?
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Why has the Secretary of State changed the claim he made to the House last July that there would be no need for any rates increase as a result of his rate support grant settlement? In the final part of his statement, did he not recognise that rates increases will not only occur but be inevitable as a result of the Government's policies? When will the right hon. Gentleman publish the Bill to end grant recycling? With what other matters will that legislation deal?
Will the Secretary of State explain why he claims that these latest proposals, which he said resulted only from consideration of new and more relevant information and data, disguise the fact that he is reallocating more money as a result of his manipulation of the safety nets and multipliers than he is as a result of any consideration of any new information? The reality is that more than twice as much of the money reallocated results from the manipulation of the multipliers as could be attributed to any new information.
Is the Secretary of State aware that we condemn his ever-widening use of the Rates Act, this time applying to more local authorities and bodies than ever before—40 in total? Do his figures for rate limits take into account the bombshell announced in December in which calculations of housing subsidy for maintenance of council houses were changed, thus denying inner city boroughs, such as Camden, Islington and Brent, of many millions of pounds for crucial house maintenance and repair? Given the difficulties that result not only from the statement's complexity and lateness but from the widening use of the Rates Act, why has not the Secretary of State been more open about the Government's intentions on teachers' pay? Is it not a reality that, if settlement of that matter comes after local authorities have fixed their rates, they will face grave difficulties? Since the right hon. Gentleman has commented on the Government's resolve to protect ratepayers, will he say why last year's public expenditure White Paper did not take realistic account of the level of local government expenditure? Will tomorrow's be any more realistic?
Finally—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is always a mistake to say "finally", even when one's comments are significantly shorter than those of the Secretary of State. Does not the Secretary of State recognise that the real reason why rates are and remain a problem for people is the failure of the Government's policies, the massive switching of burdens from taxpayers to ratepayers, and the Government's ineptitude in dealing with local government finance?
Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman has asked many questions, and I shall try to answer them briefly. I am delighted to hear his support for changing this system getting stronger and stronger. We shall expect him to be with us in the Division Lobby when the Bill to abolish rates in England and Wales is introduced shortly after the election. He will then be able to reflect his dislike of the system in his vote.
The consultation on this settlement has been greater than on any previous occasion. [Laughter.] That is not a bad thing or something to be laughed at. If we have consultation, it is right that we should listen to all hon. Gentlemen's comments and, if necessary, act on them. I think that many hon. Members will be grateful for the fact that I did that.

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The hon. Gentleman asked about rate limits. Consultation on rate limits had already taken place when authorities that wished to apply for redetermination saw officials or Ministers and, after consideration of those representations, the formulae in the Bill were inserted. Had it not been for the Bill having to be brought forward, I should now be making a final determination, having consulted those rate-limited authorities that applied for redetermination, which were not all of them. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says that it would be different. That is right, but for many of them it is higher than it would have been because, as he knows, we have had to keep them all to the same increase in each class. That means that some of them have got higher rate limits than they might otherwise have received. That is borne out by the figure in my statement of an extra £40 million provision. Because of rate capping and precept limitation, the figure is actually £50 million less a £10 million adjustment for authorities spending less this year than they expected.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the change in the GRE in relation to the treatment of rent in London. This change was made at the suggestion of the Association of London Authorities, and for that reason I cannot understand why he should complain about it.
The hon. Gentleman asked why I assumed that the Bill would go through. If the Bill does not go through, no rate support grant will be payable next year, nor will it be possible to pay back the £385 million of holdback that is due to be paid back under the 1985–86 report. That is held up until the Bill becomes law. Massive sums of money for local authorities are at stake under the Bill and I would not have thought that any Member of either House would wish to obstruct progress of the Bill because of the gent damage to local authorities which would result if that money could not be paid.
We would never have produced more than an extra £1 billion of rate support grant if it had not been proposed to abolish grant recycling. The two go together and I hope that not one penny of that money comes back. I hope that every authority will spend at the level of the settlement assumption and not above it. Even that, at 5·25 per cent. above this year's cost—that is, 1·5 per cent. more than inflation—is a very large increase in spending.
The hon. Gentleman asked about rates. If all authorities spend at the settlement assumption, then the average—I repeat average—percentage increase in rate precepts will be 1·2 per cent. which is much less than the rate of inflation. If authorities spend at the settlement assumption, there will be an average reduction in rate bills in real terms.
The recycling Bill will be published very soon. One small but I think uncontroversial change is necessary, but otherwise it contains only provisions to end grant recycling.
The hon. Gentleman asked about teachers' pay. The Department of Education and Science will shortly provide local authority associations with details of the cost of the settlement on teachers' pay and details of the grant towards it. Those details are based on the statement which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science made on 30 October. If the settlement is as my right hon. Friend predicted on 30 October, the full financial consequences will be with authorities very soon, and that will enable them to set their budgets and rates in plenty of time before the deadline.
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Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about the public expenditure White Paper. He must wait to see that White Paper when it is published tomorrow. As with all things to do with this Government, he will find it sensible, workmanlike and realistic.
Sir Trevor Skeet: I thank the Secretary of state for listening to our representations and responding to them, and for the safety net provisions, but will he bear in mind the particular problem of Bedfordshire—the education debt provision—which has been with us for many years and is likely to continue? Will he continue to try to find a solution to that problem?
Mr. Ridley: I note what my hon. Friend says. I know that there are special difficulties in Bedfordshire. It is not one of the most fortunate areas in terms of the settlement. That is a result of the swings and roundabouts and the complexities in the rate support grant settlement, but I shall certainly bear in mind the problem about education that he mentioned.
Mr. Michael Meadowcroft: Is it not highly reprehensible that six weeks' reflection on the previous statement by the Secretary of State has not brought any change in the highly unfair and biased allocation that he proposed then and which will benefit certain shire counties? Surely the Government's love of things American ought not to lead them to introduce the pork barrel system of politics by assisting those who might well support them at the ballot box.
Is it not also rather strange that the Secretary of State should say in his statement that it is his firm intention to carry out the 1987–88 settlement when he gives us no knowledge of the effect of the powers that he will take to himself in the Act about the accounting systems of local government and what effect that might well have on local government finances in the following year?
Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that to base the grant-related expenditure for the police on police establishments relates it to something which is at least in contention if not highly questionable in many local authorities which complain about the establishment of the police? Is it not highly sceptical to think that one can bring significant benefit from compulsion in regard to competitive tendering? That will not bring any significant savings to local government. Is it not amazing to suggest that the local government system is short on accountability and long on complexity when the truth is that it is short on accountability to local electors and certainly long on compulsion by the Government? That is the heart of the problem.
Mr. Ridley: I am amazed by the hon. Gentleman's first question, because he does not seem to know that between parts of England south and north of the Severn-Wash line about £1 billion of grant is transferred from the south to the north. He may be interested to know that this settlement gives an extra £381 million to counties and authorities north of that line, and only £148 million to counties south of the line. He talks about pork barrel politics in the Tory shire counties, but he ought to be aware that this is one of the best settlements ever reached for northern authorities and industrial cities.
I am fully aware that the settlement and the payment of grant to local authorities depends upon the Local Government Finance Bill receiving Royal Assent in a form

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very similar to the form it is in at present. The hon. Gentleman and the Opposition will have to consider carefully whether they want to take their heady opposition to the point where they might seriously risk depriving local authorities of grant on time.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the police. The West Yorkshire police authority could reduce its rate by 0·2 per cent. if it spent at the settlement assumption and the precept limit in the Bill.
Mr. Richard Holt: My right hon. Friend will know that many critics have suggested that the rate support grant would be geared in the direction of the south. On behalf of the people of Cleveland, I should like to thank him for his statement about the rate support grant. That county is being treated in the most generous way of all the counties and has an additional bonus because of the saving of Smith's Dock and ITM. There will be rate income from those two large organisations this year. That would otherwise have been lost. As a consequence, the people of Cleveland who now have a decent allowance will be able to look forward to a reduction in their rates.
Mr. Ridley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and pleased to hear the authoritative voice of the north speaking accurately and truthfully. My hon. Friend is quite right. If Cleveland spends at the settlement assumption, it will gain a further £15 million in grant and will be able to reduce its rate by 4·1 per cent. I hope that after a few years of the operation of the new urban development corporation on Teesside the companies about which my hon. Friend spoke will create sufficient rateable value to give an extra boost to that part of the world.
Mr. Allan Roberts: Since yesterday's debate, has the Minister had time to read his Bill? If he has finally managed to read it, does he not recognise that the draconian measures that he is taking upon himself, the retrospective nature of the Bill and the clauses that will prevent the courts from being used in the way in which they have always been used in Britain will obviously not be acceptable to many noble Lords? It is unlikely that the Bill will go through without being significantly amended. Is it not therefore arrogant to make the kind of statement that he has made today on the basis of the Bill going through unamended? Is he aware that capital allocations are totally inadequate and that, for instance, in Sefton, because of this settlement, they have had to stop letting out contracts? How can the so-called party of law and order take £6 million from the Merseyside police authority when crime has increased by 40 per cent. during the lifetime of this Government?
Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman may have read the Bill, but he has certainly not understood it. Nor have his right hon. and hon. Friends. The elements of retrospection and judge-proofing that they alleged yesterday were totally disproved by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland who closed the debate with distinction and clarity. If he does not understand the Bill, he would do better to keep quiet on the matter. Sefton can reduce its rates by 3·3 per cent. if it spends at the settlement assumption. I cannot see what is wrong with that.
Mr. Timothy Raison: My right hon. Friend has referred to the weaknesses in the rate support grant system—we would all agree with that—but is not one of the weaknesses that updated population figures are not used in the final settlement when they could be? Is that not unfair to counties of increasing population, such as Buckinghamshire?
Mr. Ridley: All population figures are taken into account at a certain stage. They have to work their way into the data upon which the whole operation is based. However, the effect of a cap on grant gains and making a quicker appreciation of population changes would, of course, be working in the opposite direction and would cancel each other out.
Mr. Chris Smith: For all the Secretary of State's talk of complexity and consultation, and for all the twists and turns of the succession of Secretaries of State, is it not a simple fact that the Government are proposing a total Exchequer grant, including that to the police, of £12·8 billion out of a total anticipated expenditure of £27·7 billion? By my calculation, that is less than 46 per cent. of total expected expenditure. That is compared with 61 per cent. which was the figure of Government support for local authorities when the Government came into office. Is that not a massive reduction in support for local government and local services?
Mr. Ridley: The total provision is not £27 billion, as the hon. Gentleman said, but some £25 billion, of which the approximately £12·8 billion rate support grant represents precisely 46·4 per cent.
Mr. Robin Squire: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is possible at one and the same time to congratulate him on maintaining the present level of support for local authorities, at least while we have the present system, to join with him in wishing that the present system could be profoundly changed and to disagree deeply with him about the present proposals to change that system?
Mr. Ridley: It is possible for my hon. Friend to do that, but only for a short while longer, before he has to tell us how he prefers to see the system changed.
Mr. Reg Freeson: I have a simple question for the Secretary of State. In the light of the settlement that he has announced, will there be more or less expenditure on repairs, renewal and maintenance of the building stock—housing, schools and other public buildings—in the inner city areas in particular, one of which I represent?
Mr. Ridley: With the best will in the world, it is not a simple question, because a large part of repair and maintenance is treated as current expenditure out of the rent account and a large part of this is capitalised and treated as capital expenditure. My complaint is that too much of what should have been maintenance is turned into capital dereliction because it has not been done in the past. It is impossible to give an answer related to current only. I can only say that the right hon. Gentleman will find a large increase in the capital provision for housing repair and renovation; together with this large increase in rate support grant settlement, he will find that the money available for housing, both current and capital, is greatly increased in real terms over the previous year.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: Will my right hon. Friend send to any Member who alleges that he understands his statement a tin of the new parliamentary humbugs? Will he send to the rest of us a clear translation, indicating how it affects our individual areas?
Mr. Ridley: I do not know whether my hon. Friend is suggesting that I should send myself a tin of humbugs. I would certainly be delighted to spend as much time as he likes with him or with any other hon. Member explaining how the system works, although there must be a time limit on that because we will soon replace the system with a better one.
Mr. Terry Davis: Will the Secretary of State confirm that as a result of his announcement today the City of Birmingham district council, the biggest in England, will not be allowed to spend as much as it should spend according to the Government's own assessment of what needs to be spent in Birmingham?
Mr. Ridley: The settlement for Birmingham is an extra £30·861 million over the present grant if it spends at the settlement assumption, which enables Birmingham to reduce its rates by 4·8 per cent., not in real terms but in cash terms, which is the best result of any authority under this settlement. It is just a little bit greedy for Birmingham to believe that it should have more when that more can come only from the constituencies of other hon. Members.
Mr. Tim Rathbone: My right hon. Friend will be aware that if he gives more to Birmingham he will take even more from east Sussex where, in spite of an impeccable performance—by the Government's own statistics east Sussex has performed better in cutting its expenditure over the past five years than any other county—he has reduced absolutely the rate support grant. We have been told recently that this has come about for a number of reasons, among them an alteration, seemingly arbitrary, in the way in which children between the ages of 0 and 15 are calculated for the purpose of rate support grant—which does not bode well for the young people. Indeed, the absolute reduction does not bode well for any of the people in east Sussex.
Mr. Ridley: My hon. Friend does not have too had a result for cast Sussex. He can look forward to a rate increase of only 2·5 per cent. if the county council spends at the settlement assumption. That is a better result than many hon. Gentlemen will have for their authorities. I do not think that it is too bad.
The GREs are constantly being negotiated with all authorities and their associations, and we tend to try to do what the authorities want. But the consequences of that are not always good for every authority. There is always a bit of swings and roundabouts in it. In east Sussex I am sure that we can find some GRE changes which would be to the benefit of the county. It is a pity to pick on only one rather than to look at the overall position.
Mr. Allen McKay: Will the Secretary of State, taking into consideration the answer that he gave to one of his hon. Friends, look at the situation which affects Barnsley metropolitan borough council? Since the census was taken in, I think, 1981, the cost of certain undertakings and the whole atmosphere and situation in Barnsley have changed. For instance, it is now 12th as regards children under 18 in care. It has the
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fourth highest percentage of people over the age of 75. It has the highest percentage of unemployment, which has risen by 72 per cent. compared with 32 per cent. on average. Should not consideration be given to these factors, which have changed since the census was taken?
Mr. Ridley: All those factors are taken into account in the GREs, including the population statistics of the various age groups. They are agreed with the local authority associations and we decide how best to take cognisance of them. It would be wrong, having had those data fed into the construction of the GREs, then to seek to have a special increase because it is felt that the results are not satisfactory for one's own authority.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that anything to do with rates is a minefield and that recent statements by the Government have not reduced the number of explosives. Does he agree that his most recent statement does not seem to have paid tribute to those responsible authorities, like mine in the borough of Macclesfield, which have met the successive requirements of Governments of all shades and complexions? Will he direct his remarks to capital receipts, which are of immense benefit to my authority? If that authority was able to spend them, not only would they generate additional revenue but they would reduce unemployment and make my area of the north-west more efficient, which is totally in line with the requirements of the Government.
Mr. Ridley: I hereby and without condition pay full tribute to all those authorities which are frugal, prudent, sensible and economical. I wish that we could spend more time on them instead of on some of the councils represented by the Labour party which are becoming so extraordinary that the House not only has to talk about them but has to legislate about them, to the great detriment of the good authorities. I take my hon. Friend's point entirely.
On capital receipts, the results that my hon. Friend mentions would not flow through. If we were to release a greater proportion of capital receipts, authorities would have to borrow to find the cash. So, although they could save money, as it were, in the ways he has suggested—
Mr. Winterton: It is on deposit now.
Mr. Ridley: I do not think it is. Only a very small proportion of the £8 billion of capital receipts is on deposit. The rest does not really exist because it is being used to repay debt, either external debt or internal debt.
Mr. Michael Hancock: Can the Secretary of State explain how a county like Hampshire, which for the last seven years has followed to the letter Government diktats, should still suffer considerable grant loss? Despite the opportunities outlined in paragraph 7 of his statement, just to hold the line on the current level of service will mean a rate increase in double figures. How can the Secretary of State make such a statement about capital receipts when Portsmouth, which has over £40 million in capital receipts, is unable to spend it? Should he give the authority power to release that expenditure, it could not only bring down unemployment but greatly improve the housing position in that city.
Mr. Ridley: I am surprised by that. I understand that Alliance members on Hampshire county council recently

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voted against accepting the lowest tender for providing a service when it had gone out to competitive tender. How dare the hon. Gentleman make any such point?
Mr. Terence Higgins: In regard to the receipts from council house sales, does the problem not stem from the absurd way in which the Government treated the receipts as a reduction in public expenditure? Essentially it has been a means of financing the PSBR. It means that the Government have been borrowing from local authorities. Surely it is time we got this straightened out and enabled local authorities to have more access to the money which they have.
Mr. Ridley: The total of local authority capital indebtedness is, from memory, about £33 billion. So if £33 billion is owed by local authorities to those from whom they borrow, it would be unlikely that one would find large amounts of capital receipts in the banks or on deposit, although there are some. Therefore, I do not think it is a question of a system of accounting; it is a question of local authorities not having the money from capital receipts because they have used it to repay debts.
Mr. Tony Banks: Is not the Secretary of State aware that there is probably about £6 billion of accumulated capital receipts in local authority bank accounts all round the country? The right hon. Gentleman has not the foggiest idea of how local government finance works. Before he insults the House with his arrogant, laid-back approach, showing his total ignorance of the problems of local authorities, he should get the facts right.
Mr. Ridley: No one could call the hon. Gentleman laid back or relaxed; he seems to be working himself into a frenzy. In fact, he is wrong. There is not some £6 billion of receipts in bank accounts. Local authorities, very prudently and properly, have used their capital receipts to repay their debts.
Sir Julian Ridsdale: Will my right hon. Friend examine again the position in Essex? Is he aware that in my constituency and in many parts of Essex many people on small fixed incomes will be adversely affected by his failure to understand the position? If Essex county council is able to keep its spending under GRE, will he reconsider the position and treat the council sympathetically?
Mr. Ridley: My hon. Friend and other hon. Gentlemen who represent Essex constituencies have discussed this with me, but I must point out that Essex is increasing its spending and is not one of the authorities which comes entirely into the category that I commended in my response to my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). It has to be considered how the county council has allowed its spending to get out of control. Even as it is, the county council will have to make only a 6·3 increase in rates if it spends at the settlement assumption, but that assumption in the case of Essex is rather high.
Mr. Max Madden: Will the Secretary of State confirm that Bradford is suffering the second biggest cut in grant of any metropolitan district in England? Will he also agree that, unless that cut is restored and unless the Government agree to fund properly the West Yorkshire police, fire and transport authorities,
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Bradford ratepayers will face a very big demand this year? Will he now reconsider the request that I made to him last August to meet representatives of Bradford council so that they may bring to his attention the unique problems and demands of the area and he can reconsider restoring the cut in grant which his statement will inflict upon the city?
Mr. Ridley: I am getting more and more to hear what the language of the Labour party is. I ask the House to listen to this; a cut for Bradford in rate support grant is an increase of £10·426 million; a cut in the West Yorkshire police authority's grant is an increase of £5·436 million; a cut in the West Yorkshire fire authority's grant is an increase of £0·229 million; a cut in the West Yorkshire tranport authority's grant is an increase of £1·778 million. How those figures can conceivably be described as a cut absolutely defeats me.
Mr. Richard Alexander: May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his proposals for Nottinghamshire, which at present has a Labour-controlled authority? Is it correct to say that his proposals will give that county an increase of about £22 million, or the equivalent of a 10p or 11p rate? If I am correct, is it not appalling that the county should consider any increase in its rates for next year?
Mr. Ridley: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The extra grant for Nottinghamshire, if it spends its settlement assumption, is £22·119 million which would enable it to cut its rates by 10·7 per cent. It is an extremely favourable result for Nottinghamshire. Whether it lies north of the Severn-Humber line I rather doubt, so it has done extremely well. I urge it publicly to show a big cut in its rate so that it can increase the confidence of business to expand and provide more jobs for the citizens of Nottingham.
Mr. Nigel Spearing: Does the Secretary of State agree that the spending of authorities governed by the second formula in schedule 2 of the Bill varies from 1·6 per cent. above GREA to 70 per cent. above GREA? Will he therefore consider in Committee amendments that would reduce those anomalies? In respect of the London borough of Newham, which cannot put up its rates further, why has he today reduced the block grant figure announced in December from £96 million to £92·7 million? In view of the inner city problems experienced by the borough of Newham, does that not mean a reduction which the borough cannot bear? Why is he reducing the amount that the borough can spend since last month?
Mr. Ridley: The local rate in Newham is already 66 per cent. above the class average. I have never heard a word from any of the representatives of Newham in this House about the requirements and needs of the ratepayers. I should have thought that it was about time that the hon. Gentleman recognised that the ratepayers exist. It follows therefore that if we increase their spending under the Local Government Finance Bill, the grant will go down because all authorities that increase spending will lose grant. That is part of the rate support grant system.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I will call the four hon. Members who have been rising regularly. I ask for brief questions, because we must move on.
Mr. Peter Bruinvels: Will my right hon. Friend introduce a tougher monitoring scheme for those lucky rate-capped authorities and the next top 20 high spenders? Is he aware that the citizens in Leicestershire believe that if Leicester city council had been rate capped last year they would not be losing £547,000 this year?
Mr. Ridley: I understand my hon. Friend's concern. Leicester has been a rough story. However, I can tell him that Leicestershire has this year received a big increase in grant that will help to keep down the total rate bill for my hon. Friend's constituents.
I want to correct a mistake that I made about Sefton in response to the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Roberts). I said that the rates could go down by 3·3 per cent. I should have said that they could go up by that amount.
Mr. Tony Marlow: My right hon. Friend, I know, is well aware of the situation in Northamptonshire which, he will agree, is difficult. He knows that as a result of the teachers' settlement there is likely to be an increased cost of between £10 million and £12 million. Could my right hon. Friend tell the House what proportion of that cost will be met by central Government or by the taxpayer, and how that proportion of the cost will be calculated? As a simple matter, could he say that it would be at least 40 per cent.?
Mr. Ridley: I think that Northamptonshire has had a very unfortunate result from the settlement and I find it difficult to explain precisely why. My hon. Friend's authority has probably suffered more than any other.
With regard to the teachers' settlement, the first part of the cost that relates to the current financial year 1986–87, the proportion that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science said would be met by grant, was 46·4 per cent. That is the same as for the settlement. The proportion for the following year, 1987–88, is slightly less. The details of these figures will be sent to all local authorities very soon and my right hon. Friend will be writing to them.
Mr. John Powley: Local government will no doubt welcome the extra £1 billion by way of grant entitlement that will come from the taxpayer to increase grant entitlement. Indeed, I also welcome that extra £1 billion. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that Norfolk,
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a traditionally economic local authority, will have its grant entitlement increased as a result of his announcement this afternoon and thus prove that it pays to run a tight ship for the benefit of ratepayers and, in particular, of commerce and industry within the area that I represent?
Mr. Ridley: I can confirm that Norfolk has received a good result from the settlement and that it receives a further £14·059 million of grant which enables the county to reduce its rate precept by 1·4 per cent. if it spends at the settlement assumption. I am happy to pay tribute to the stewardship of Norfolk county council.
Mr. Bowen Wells: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaking in the debate at the point to which I have become accustomed, may I thank my right hon. Friend—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is not usually called last.
Mr. Bowen Wells: Anyway, I am pleased to take part in the statement. I must thank my right hon. Friend and the Minister of State, who have genuinely consulted with Hertfordshire about the rate support grant, for putting in place the necessary adjustments which have saved £8 million of the proposed reduction in the rate support grant for Hertfordshire of £15 million.
So that we do not have to go through this wretched business of consultation, become angry and bother my right hon. Friend perhaps unnecessarily, will my right hon. Friend assure us that the same safeguards will be included in the rate support grant settlement next year and the year after until we introduce a new system? That would stop us from having to go through this wretched business again and again.
Mr. Ridley: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments. I was tempted to think that it would be nice if he could make the statement and not simply take part in it. However, perhaps that would be going too far.
We cannot begin to consider next year's rate support grant settlement this afternoon. We have had enough difficulty with the complexity of the present settlement. However, I note my hon. Friend's comments. We must ensure that the rather creaking system can be made to last the very few years until a better system is put in place following a successful general election and the passage of the English rates Bill.

Capital Punishment (Murder of Children)
4.37 pm
Mr. Geoffrey Dickens: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make it a capital offence to commit the murder of a child.
It is the inescapable duty of the state to protect its children, in the most effective way that is available to it, from unlawful sexual abuse, violence and murder. The Royal Commission on Capital Punishment, which reported in 1953, described murder as the gravest of all crimes and capital punishment as the gravest of punishments for the gravest of all crimes. The murder of a child is, in terms of public concern, an outrage and the gravest and most detestable of all crimes.
I contend that, if it became part of our law once again, capital punishment would, by its deterrent effect, reduce the number of child murders. I also contend that the knock-on effect of the death penalty would deter violence and abuse towards children. Evil people who prey on children are usually cowards to pick on a defenceless child. Cowards understand the fear of death. That fear has a powerful influence over all human beings. Was is not Dr. Johnson who said that nothing concentrates the mind so much as the imminent fear of execution? I submit that nothing is more likely to make the child abuser and potential child murderer pause before interfering with a child than the knowledge that if he or she kills he or she may suffer death.
Those who oppose capital punishment always call for evidence of the deterrent effect of the death penalty knowing that they sit on safe ground. Let me explain. Someone who may have considered murdering a child but is frightened off by the thought of the death penalty will never appear as a statistic. How could he? However, in 1953 the Royal Commission concluded that the deterrent effect of capital punishment was stronger than that of any other punishment available for murder. Common sense tells us that the increase in child abuse, violence and murder has been staggering since the death penalty was abolished.
Despite all the strong measures taken by the Government, the state is simply not protecting its children to the satisfaction of public opinion. In 1985, 125 people were charged with the murder of a child. Most of the arguments that have been put forward over the years by those opposing capital punishment fall to the ground, like a pack of cards, when applied to the murder of a child. Some believe that convicted terrorists, if executed, would become martyrs. Others have made pleas for murders of passion, and so on. Another defence is that mistakes may be made. Which convicted child murderer has ever been released from prison because it was felt that a mistake had been made at the trial? Many have been released, only to kill again. Others have killed fellow prisoners. Few of the arguments against capital punishment apply when considering it for the murder of a child.
My next remarks are directed to my own Front Bench. In 1983, the then Home Secretary, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Brittan) said:
"If the House votes for the restoration of capital punishment for any category of offence, the Government will provide drafting assistance for a private Member's Bill
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designed to give effect to the expression of opinion of the House and will provide time for the Bill to be debated."—[Official Report, 13 July 1983; Vol. 45, c. 892.]
If I am granted the leave of the House, whether unopposed or opposed, to present my Bill. I am justly entitled to expect the Government to honour that commitment and help me with parliamentary drafting services and parliamentary time. If my Bill receives the approval of Parliament today, the Government may wish to consider inserting a new clause in the Criminal Justice Bill.
The recent return of the child murderess Myra Hindley to the Saddleworth moor in my constituency has reopened painful wounds for many families and also for my constituents who live close to those moors. We must always remember that throughout the country there are hundreds of parents who have had their children snatched from play and murdered or never seen again. The thoughts and prayers of this House should be for them all.
The death penalty would have been a most appropriate sentence for Myra Hindley, Ian Brady and others like them if it had been the law at the time of their sentence. A very strong case can be made out for it. We might have saved the lives of Lesley Ann Downey and John Kilbride if the Labour Government of the day had not diluted the deterrent at the time of their killing. They undermined that deterrent by giving notice of their plans to abolish the death penalty. I suspect that Hindley and Brady took a gamble. They were right. They did not have to face the death penalty at the time of their sentence because the Labour Government had removed it.
I have a vision that once again the United Kingdom will be safe for our women to walk freely, without fear of being molested and raped, that our elderly will feel safe after dark and inside their own homes, and that our children will be able to play safely, unafraid of being abused or murdered. My vision will become a reality only if we take a tough line with the criminals, as we do with the defence of the realm. This Bill provides the opportunity for Parliament to make a start today by protecting children. I hope that hon. Members will give me leave to present my Bill for the sake of children everywhere.
4.44 pm
Mr. Joseph Ashton: We are in an election year. The hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) has a marginal seat which backs on to Saddleworth moor. That is why he has introduced this Bill. His remarks about the Labour Government of 1964 were pathetic. The murder of Leslie Ann Downey took place on Boxing Day 1964. The Labour Government had then been in office for fewer than eight weeks. To say that the incoming Labour Government took away the deterrent shows the nonsense of the hon. Gentleman's case. There was capital punishment at that time for certain forms of murder. But capital punishment has never been a deterrent. When they hanged pickpockets on Tyburn hill a crowd of 10,000 surrounded the cart, and when the noose pulled the man up into the air all the pickpockets in the crowd chose that moment to dip their hands into the pocket of the man in front. Capital punishment did not deter people from stealing sheep. The statistics prove it.
The hon. Gentleman is trying to bring back capital and non-capital murder. He wants capital punishment for certain types of offence. We had that in this country for

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nine years, and at the end of the experiment Lord Chief Justice Parker said that it was an absolute fiasco that there should he capital punishment for murder involving shooting, for the theft of money, or for killing a policeman or a prison warder, but that there should not be capital punishment for the crime of poisoning. The jury had to decide, but all too often the jury dodged it and refused to convict.
How does one define the age of a child? Is somebody 15 years and 364 days old classed as a child? What happens if a person aged 16 years and one day is murdered? Is he also classed as a child? If the child who is murdered is one day over the limit, does it mean that the murderer gets away with it'? What nonsense that would be.
Experience in the United States shows that when two states that are side by side—for example, Rhode Island and Massachusetts or Maine and New Hampshire whose people are in the same income groups—have capital punishment in one state but not in the other, the murder rate is exactly the same in both states. In the case of two thirds of the murders in this country, the murderer knows his victim, and one third of murders take place within the family.
Often they are crimes of passion. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the death penalty would deter crimes of passion? It did not deter crimes of passion when we had the death penalty. Albert Pierrepoint, who hanged 400 murderers, said that the death penalty was no deterrent but a desire for revenge. It is more than a desire for revenge in the case of the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth. It is also a desire for votes, but his revenge would be carried out by somebody else; the hon. Gentleman would not carry out the sentence himself.
This is the first step towards the introduction of hanging for many more crimes, including terrorism and the IRA. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Conservative Members cheer. There is nothing that the IRA would like more than the reintroduction of hanging. The IRA would vote for it, hostages would be kidnapped weeks before a trial took place. There would be demonstrations outside the prison and television cameras would be there all the time.
Timothy Evans was hanged—
Mr. Michael Meadowcroft: For the murder of a child.
Mr. Ashton: He murdered a child, yes, but they hanged the wrong man. When the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) was Home Secretary 16 years later he had to give Evans a pardon, but by then it was too late. There have been strong doubts in many other cases: for example, in the case of David Cooper and Michael McMahon; of Patrick Meehan; of John Preece, who was released in 1973 after having served eight and a half years; and of William Leighton. They would all have been dead and it would have been too late. They were found innocent but it would have been too late.
In history, all too often, the murderer who was hanged got the sympathy. Those people who demonstrated at the gates to save Ruth Ellis remember her and not her victim. It would be the same if Myra Hindley had gone down in history as the last woman to be hanged—she would not be regarded with the same revulsion as she is now. Indeed,
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the British people are determined to keep her in gaol for many long years because that punishment is far worse, than hanging.
The hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth is seeking to play on people's emotions because a general election is coming up.
Over many years, the House has discussed this problem, people have sat down together in a sane and responsible way to discuss it and each time they have rejected capital punishment.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 19 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at Commencement of Public Business):—
The House divided: Ayes 110, Noes 175.

Division No. 51]

[4.50 pm

AYES

Alexander, Richard

Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

Amess, David

Lord, Michael

Ancram, Michael

Macfarlane, Neil

Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)

MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)

Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

Maclean, David John

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

McLoughlin, Patrick

Bellingham, Henry

McQuarrie, Albert

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Malone, Gerald

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Marland, Paul

Bright, Graham

Marlow, Antony

Browne, John

Maude, Hon Francis

Bruinvels, Peter

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Carttiss, Michael

Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

Cash, William

Monro, Sir Hector

Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Mudd, David

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Neale, Gerrard

Colvin, Michael

Neubert, Michael

Conway, Derek

Nicholls, Patrick

Coombs, Simon

Norris, Steven

Corrie, John

Page, Sir John (Harrow W)

Dickens, Geoffrey

Page, Richard (Herts SW)

Dicks, Terry

Pawsey, James

Durant, Tony

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Eyre, Sir Reginald

Pollock, Alexander

Fallon, Michael

Portillo, Michael

Favell, Anthony

Proctor, K. Harvey

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Ridsdale, Sir Julian

Forth, Eric

Roe, Mrs Marion

Fox, Sir Marcus

Shersby, Michael

Gardiner, George (Reigate)

Sims, Roger

Glyn, Dr Alan

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Speller, Tony

Gow, Ian

Spencer, Derek

Greenway, Harry

Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)

Gregory, Conal

Stanbrook, Ivor

Grylls, Michael

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Sumberg, David

Hargreaves, Kenneth

Taylor, John (Solihull)

Hawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW)

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Hawksley, Warren

Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

Hayward, Robert

Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)

Hind, Kenneth

Thornton, Malcolm

Hirst, Michael

Tracey, Richard

Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)

Walker, Bill (T'side N)

Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford)

Waller, Gary

Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N)

Ward, John

Hunter, Andrew

Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

Jessel, Toby

Wiggin, Jerry

Jones, Robert (Herts W)

Winterton, Mrs Ann

King, Roger (B'ham N'field)

Winterton, Nicholas

Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

Wolfson, Mark

Lang, Ian

Lawrence, Ivan

Tellers for the Ayes:

Lee, John (Pendle)

Mr. Michael Brown and

Lightbown, David

Mr. John Powley.

165

NOES

Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

Alton, David

Dubs, Alfred

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Dykes, Hugh

Ashby, David

Eadie, Alex

Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)

Eastham, Ken

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Evans, John (St. Helens N)

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Fatchett, Derek

Barron, Kevin

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Beckett, Mrs Margaret

Fisher, Mark

Bell, Stuart

Flannery, Martin

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Forrester, John

Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

Foster, Derek

Bidwell, Sydney

Foulkes, George

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Fraser, J. (Norwood)

Boothroyd, Miss Betty

Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

Boyes, Roland

Freud, Clement

Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E)

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

Garrett, W. E.

Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Bruce, Malcolm

Golding, Mrs Llin

Buchan, Norman

Gourlay, Harry

Buck, Sir Antony

Hamilton, James (M'well N)

Budgen, Nick

Hancock, Michael

Caborn, Richard

Hardy, Peter

Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Hayes, J.

Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)

Heath, Rt Hon Edward

Cartwright, John

Heffer, Eric S.

Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Clay, Robert

Home Robertson, John

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Howarth, George (Knowsley, N)

Cohen, Harry

Howells, Geraint

Coleman, Donald

Hoyle, Douglas

Cook, Frank (Stockton North)

Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)

Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

Critchley, Julian

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Crowther, Stan

Janner, Hon Greville

Dalyell, Tam

John, Brynmor

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

Johnston, Sir Russell

Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly)

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Dewar, Donald

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Dixon, Donald

Kennedy, Charles

Dobson, Frank

Kirkwood, Archy

Dormand, Jack

Knox, David

Dorrell, Stephen

Lamond, James

166

Leadbitter, Ted

Redmond, Martin

Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Richardson, Ms Jo

Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

Lilley, Peter

Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

Litherland, Robert

Robertson, George

Livsey, Richard

Rogers, Allan

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

Loyden, Edward

Rowe, Andrew

McCartney, Hugh

Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

McDonald, Dr Oonagh

St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

McKay, Allen (Penistone)

Sheerman, Barry

Maclennan, Robert

Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

McNamara, Kevin

Shields, Mrs Elizabeth

Madden, Max

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Maples, John

Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)

Marek, Dr John

Skinner, Dennis

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)

Maxton, John

Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E)

Maynard, Miss Joan

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Meacher, Michael

Snape, Peter

Meadowcroft, Michael

Stott, Roger

Mellor, David

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Straw, Jack

Michie, William

Thorne, Stan (Preston)

Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

Tinn, James

Miscampbell, Norman

Wallace, James

Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

Waller, Gary

Nellist, David

Wareing, Robert

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

Weetch, Ken

O'Brien, William

Welsh, Michael

O'Neill, Martin

Wigley, Dafydd

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Williams, Rt Hon A.

Parry, Robert

Winnick, David

Patchett, Terry

Woodall, Alec

Pavitt, Laurie

Wrigglesworth, Ian

Pike, Peter

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Price, Sir David

Tellers for the Noes:

Radice, Giles

Mr. Joseph Ashton and

Raffan, Keith

Mr. Frank Haynes.

Raynsford, Nick

Question accordingly negatived.

The Army
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lightbown.]
5.1 pm
The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. John Stanley): It is almost a year since our last Army debate, and that year has been an important one for the Army. In Northern Ireland, it saw the security forces having to meet the most serious challenge to law and order for more than 10 years, and meeting it successfully. It saw our first major overseas exercise outside the NATO area since the Falklands conflict. Indeed, 1986 saw further new items of equipment coming into general Army use; in particular the much lighter SA80 rifle with its sophisticated telescopic sight, the new combat helmet, the S10 respirator, and new portable and lightweight thermal imaging equipment. Moreover, 1986 saw a good level of recruiting, a welcome levelling off in the rate of applications from officers for premature voluntary retirement and a further expansion of both the Territorial Army and the Home Service Force.
The Army enters 1987 materially better equipped than it has ever been and in good shape. This is due first to the fact that the present Government have met in full every one of the eight reports on service pay that we have received from the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, with phasing for just a matter of months in only two of those eight years. That is a very much better record than that of our predecessors.
The Army's good shape today is also due to the very substantial increase in expenditure on the Army over the last eight years, compared with the level in 1978–79. Indeed, the total additional expenditure on the Army in real terms by the present Government compared with the 1978–79 level will, by the end of this financial year, be more than £2,000 million, excluding additional Falklands costs. That figure shows that the criticisms of the Opposition about insufficient conventional defence expenditure are patently unjustified.
That complaint is even less warranted from a party whose party conference less than six months ago gave the following commitment:
"Over time the policy will enable us to achieve our long term goal of bringing Britain's defence spending as a proportion of national income towards the average of our major European allies."
That would represent cutting Britain's defence expenditure as a proportion of GDP by about one third.
The prime beneficiary of the huge increase in defence expenditure we have achieved for the Army—all of it strengthening our conventional capabilities—has been the 1st British Corps in Germany; and its equipment in particular. Among the major items of Army equipment ordered by the present Government—not by our predecessors—and now already in service with the 1st British Corps are the Challenger main battle tank, the Saxon armoured personnel carrier, tracked Rapier, the Javelin air defence missile, the new SA80 rifle, new personal combat kit, the Ptarmigan communication system, the Wavell computerised information system, the new night observation and gunnery sight for Chieftain and Challenger, the S10 respirator, and additional Lynx helicopters. That is, of course, not the end of the equipment transformation that we have been achieving for the Army.
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In the next few years the Army will be receiving a number of further major items of equipment already ordered by the present Government including the multiple launch rocket system, Warrior, Rapier 2000 and the Starstreak air defence missile. What has been, and is continuing to take place, is the comprehensive modernisation of the Army's equipment—its armour and anti-armour capabilities giving BAOR 12 armoured regiments by the end of the decade compared with eight in 1980, its artillery, its air defence, its armoured mobility, its infantry weapons, its communications equipment and its logistic support. That could have been achieved only by the greater priority given to defence by the present Government compared with our predecessors.
The modernisation of the Army's equipment is very necessary. Last year Mr. Gorbachev called for reductions in conventional forces, both in men and equipment, from the Atlantic to the Urals. That was a welcome call, and we hope that 1987 will see a constructive response to the West's new MBFR proposals which were tabled in December 1985 and on which we are still awaiting a substantive response.
Notwithstanding the calls for reductions, however, the reality on the other side of the inner German border is that the strengthening of Soviet forces in eastern Europe continues—and continues relentlessly. The past year has seen a further significant improvement in Soviet armour. Soviet tank production in recent years is estimated to have averaged over 3,000 new tanks a year—double that of' NATO.
The T64B and T80 tanks are replacing the older models. Many of these new tanks are fitted with explosive reactive armour to try to neutralise NATO anti-tank guided missiles; all can fire a guided missile through the gun barrel—a capability not possessed by current western battle tanks. Their already formidable attack helicopter capability is being strengthened still further as the older Hind helicopters are replaced by newer, better armed and equipped models. Their conventional artillery is being improved by the addition of more sophisticated munitions and new self-propelled guns. Current models of ground and air-launched anti-armour guided missiles are being replaced by models with improved guidance and a higher kill probability.
In chemical weapons the Warsaw pact's forces in Europe currently have a near monopoly. In nuclear weapons, the advantage that the Warsaw pact's ground forces have in ballistic missiles up to 300 km in range is 8:1. These figures are disturbing enough but they do not include nuclear capable artillery where Soviet superiority continues to increase as their single role conventional artillery is replaced by dual-capable artillery that can fire either conventional or nuclear shells.
Some see the answer to the massive Soviet superiority in shorter-range nuclear weapons to be a nuclear-free zone. I note that the Liberal and SDP defence policy statement issued on 16 December says, and I quote:
"We would seek a battlefield-nuclear weapon-free zone in Central Europe extending 150 km in each direction from the East/West divide. This would reduce reliance on short-range nuclear weapons and therefore the danger of their being used by either side."
Mr. Toby Jessel: Has my right hon. Friend noticed that no representative of the SDP or Liberal party is in the Chamber? Is that not absolutely—
Mr. John Cartwright: Would the hon. Gentleman like to withdraw those remarks?
Mr. Jessel: I withdraw what I said. I am sorry, I did not notice the hon. Gentleman, who is an Alliance Member.
Mr. Stanley: We welcome the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright) to the debate and congratulate him on winning in the hotly contested competition to be the single alliance spokesman on defence.
I was referring to the alliance's policy. I must say that that policy statement must have been written by what I can describe only as the "happy illusion" brigade on the alliance Benches. Judging by what alliance Members say, that brigade is a well-manned unit. After all, the idea that a 150 km nuclear-free zone would reduce reliance on short-range nuclear weapons is, I fear, pure wishful thinking. Those short-range systems are all mobile. They can be moved back into a paper nuclear-free zone in no time at all. Even without moving any of their shortest-range weapons the Soviets could still target any point of the nuclear-free zone with other non-strategic nuclear weapons—with their SCUDs with a range of 300 km, their SS23s with a range of 500 km, their Scaleboard missiles with a range of 900 km or their SS20s with a range of 5,000 km.
The nuclear-free zone policy of the Liberal and Social Democratic parties on the central front has the same illusory quality as the nuclear-free zone policy of the London borough of Lambeth. Although the nuclear-free zone policy of those two parties would be of no value to the British Army's deployment on the central front, the non-nuclear policy of the official Opposition would be positively and hugely damaging.
A non-nuclear Britain means a non-nuclear 1st British Corps in Germany, and the House and country will want to be very clear about the implications of that. It would mean having eight NATO Army corps deployed down the inner German border with seven of those Army corps being nuclear-capable and one not. That would blow a gaping hole straight through NATO's entire deterrent posture which rests on combining conventional and nuclear defence. That is why for the Labour party to say in one breath that it supports NATO and in another that it will unilaterally scrap all Britain's nuclear defences is a complete contradiction.
To make the 1st British Corps the one and only non-nuclear corps in Germany would relegate the British Army to being NATO's lame duck on the central front. It will make the British Army of the Rhine the number one target for any Soviet offensive. It will make BAOR, not the military asset that it is today, but a military liability.
In defence terms, it is self-evidently non-viable to have seven corps deployed side by side that are nuclear-capable and one in the middle that is not. As far as the British Army is concerned, the non-nuclear policy of the Labour party can lead in one direction, and one direction only—the gradual withdrawal of the British Army from Germany. Far from strengthening NATO's conventional defence posture, the Labour party's non-nuclear defence policy will weaken it disastrously.
I shall now turn from the Army in Germany to the Army in Britain where more than 80,000 men would be available on mobilisation. As the House knows, in Exercise Brave Defender in 1985 we conducted—and
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conducted successfully—the largest post-war exercise in home defence. A non-classified paper summarising the lessons from this valuable exercise has been placed in the Library. Procedural and organisational improvements in the light of Brave Defender continue to be made.
A critically important component of the Army's order of battle, both at home and on the continent, are the territorial and regular reserves. The strength of the Territorial Army which was about 59,000 in May 1979, has now risen to more than 77,000—an increase of a further 1,000 since last year. The second and major phase of our planned expansion of the TA started last April. This phase involves the formation of six additional infantry battalions, an additional light reconnaissance squadron, two additional airfield damage repair squadrons, the first TA helicopter squadron and some additional support units.
The trial programme for raising TA units on the continent is making good progress. A company and four platoon-size units are now in being. I am also glad to say that last year a group of territorials from the King's Regiment undertook TA training in the Falklands for the first time.
The Home Service Force also continues to expand and now stands at over 3,000—well on target for its planned strength of about 5,000 by 1990. I have referred before to our wish to make better use of our regular reserves who represent a significant pool of trained manpower. At present, some 65,000 have war roles individually allocated to them. Work is now in hand to extend this planning, on a contingency basis, to a further 35,000 of those liable to reserve service. May I once again express our warm appreciation of those who give their valuable time and boundless enthusiasm to make the Army's reserve forces the success that they undoubtedly are.
Mr. Allan Rogers: The Minister mentioned that the number of men in the Territorial Army has increased from 59,000 to 77,000 since this Government have been in power. A year ago it had 76,000 men and the Minister said in his statement at that time that there had been an increase from the previous year of 4,000. This year there has been an increase in enrolment of only 1,000. Why has enrolment slowed down? Are there any reasons for the drop from 4,000 to 1,000 a year?
Mr. Stanley: I also made it clear in my remarks that we began the second phase of our expansion only in April last year and that inevitably TA recruiting has a cyclical pattern of advertising and publicity. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman greatly welcomes the fact that the TA is now significantly stronger than it was when his party was in government.
Mr. Tony Marlow: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Will he tell the House whether he has any plans or is thinking of having any plans to give further training opportunities to the Regular Army reserve, and also to the possibility of allowing people when leaving the regular forces before they go on the reserve to themselves make a commitment to train with the Regular Army reserve over the next few years?
Mr. Stanley: As my hon. Friend knows, we have been considering ways in which we can make greater use of those who have a reserve commitment. At present we do

171
not have any specific formal arrangements of the sort to which he has referred, but I shall gladly consider that matter further and write to him if I have anything further to add. However, there are some informal arrangements that some individuals make.
I shall now turn to the Army's role outside the NATO area. The Labour policy statement approved at its last party conference states—[Interruption.] Britain will face some important defence issues and, although much attention has been devoted to the Labour party's commitment to non-nuclear policy, there are other important aspects of the defence policy which we shall bring to the attention of the House and of the country.
The Labour party's policy statement which has been approved states:
"Labour will conduct an immediate review aimed at reducing and then ending out-of-area spending."
The folly of that commitment may be demonstrated simply. Since the end of the second world war the British Army has been involved in 71 operational deployments outside the United Kingdom. Of those 71 deployments, 67 have been outside the NATO area.
It is, I fear, par for the course for the Labour party to commit itself to end defence spending in those parts of the world where 40 years' experience suggests that our armed forces are most likely to be needed.
Mr. Robert Atkins: On that point, would it not be constructive to consider the position in relation to Belize, which is the only primary jungle training centre that we now have? Allowing for the politics of that country, is it not true that if we withdrew our forces from Belize the on-cost—the amount of money that we would gain as a result,—is not much, since we would still have to pay the soldiers when we brought them back home, find them a base, and have to use and train them? Therefore, to that extent, the Labour party's suggestion on this, as on so many other defence issues, is completely nutty.
Mr. Stanley: My hon. Friend's latter point is entirely valid. If it were necessary to relocate back into the United Kingdom units which are at present deployed overseas there would be significant relocation and fixed costs in providing accommodation for the men and their families. My hon. Friend is also right to highlight the training aspect of that policy. I would stress that with the inevitable unpredictability of the world, the historic pattern and the whole of the post-war experience, it is likely that greater need for British armed services in operation will take place outside the NATO area.
The Falklands conflict itself showed the importance of maintaining and improving our ability to take action outside the NATO area. In November we were able to carry out the first major exercise demonstrating this capability in Exercise Saif Sareea in the Oman, deploying our new joint force headquarters with elements of both 5 Airborne Brigade and 3 Commando Brigade, along with RAF Tornados and transport aircraft.
The exercise successfully demonstrated our capability to mount an out-of-area deployment rapidly by air and provided an excellent opportunity to practise tri-service operations with a host country. We are making a very detailed study of the lessons to be learnt from Saif Sareea and will look for further opportunities in the future to exercise our out-of-area capability.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: Before the Minister leaves our out-of-area capability, The Independent has
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reported twice, most recently this morning under the byline of Frances Wheen, that talks are taking place in Washington with Argentina on the future of the Falklands. Are those talks taking place? Is Mr. Wheen right or wrong?
Mr. Stanley: That is an interesting question and one for my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, as the talks do not involve the British Army.
Another important aspect of our out-of-area defence commitments is the military assistance that we give overseas. Last year we had more than 650 service men, of which the Army's component was 450, serving in that role in 28 countries—all outside the NATO area. These service men and, now a few service women as well, do an extremely valuable job for Britain, often in testing conditions. They provide high quality training for our friends around the world, and support our important defence sales efforts overseas. I note that the Labour party has acknowledged that its policies will lead to a major reduction in our defence sales, which last year were worth approximately £5 billion, and I am sure that this commitment will also be well noted by the many thousands of people in all parts of Britain whose Jobs are dependent on defence exports.
A further contribution that the Army has made outside the NATO area is in disaster relief. In 1986 the Queen's Gurkha Engineers and Royal Signalers assisted the Solomon Islands in the wake of cyclone Namu. Medical, engineer and signalling assistance from Belize was given to Jamaica following severe flooding there last June, and members of the Parachute Regiment also gave help. In October, the Belize garrison provided similar assistance to San Salvador following the earthquake there.
Of the Army's service men deployed outside the NATO area I should particularly like to refer to two groups. The first are those who served in successive training teams in Uganda between March 1984, when Britain took over the training task previously undertaken there by a mixed training team drawn from seven Commonwealth countries, and November of last year, when our training team completed its scheduled task for the Government of President Museveni. A total of 140 service men, all from the Army, have served in Uganda over the past four and a half years, during what, sadly, has been a turbulent period for that country. Our training team there has worked steadily, calmly and professionally. Despite the difficulties and the moments of personal danger, it has performed extremely creditably.
The second group are the members of the Royal Military Police. For many years they have played a key role in giving personal protection to those at risk from terrorist attack, not least in Northern Ireland. In recent years as the terrorist threat has widened and become more acute for some of our diplomatic personnel, two of whom have been assassinated in the past three years, the role of the Royal Military Police has been extended to the protection of certain ambassadors and high commissioners in high-risk locations, where they are providing an invaluable service.
I can tell the House that the presence of the Royal Military Police has helped considerably in protecting our diplomats in both Beirut and Uganda. The contribution of the Royal Military Police in personal protection has never been in greater demand and we are extremely grateful for the expertise it provides.

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Operationally much the most important and demanding task for the Army in 1986 was the support of the Royal Ulster Constabulary in Northern Ireland. As I said earlier, 1986 saw the security forces in Northern Ireland having to meet their most serious challenge for a number of years. The security forces have risen to that challenge, and, with the aid of the RUC, have met it successfully. But it has meant that at the end of 1986 the Army in Northern Ireland was larger than at the beginning of the year. This is the first year in which this has happened since 1972, but we hope to reverse the trend again this year.
The fact that we were ready to increase the scale of the Army's deployment to Northern Ireland, and to do so quickly, is the clearest possible evidence of the Government's determination to root out terrorism and to overcome intimidation in the Province.
The greater challenge to the security forces last year arose from a combination of factors. These included the intensive use of home-made mortars to bomb security force bases, and the ruthless intimidation, including cold-blooded murder, of building contractors and others serving the security forces. I am glad to say, however, that the position was more encouraging by the end of 1986 than at the beginning.
The tactic of intimidating building contractors has been met successfully. Using both private contractors and the Royal Engineers, ably supported by the Royal Pioneer Corps, the past year has seen a major programme of rebuilding and strengthening our bases.
I should like to pay tribute to the Royal Engineers who this year celebrate the 200th anniversary of the granting of their royal charter. In the wars and campaigns since 1787 the sappers have constantly demonstrated their indispensability.
The Royal Engineers have been serving in Northern Ireland continually since the start of the present troubles in 1969, but if any year there deserved to be called the "Year of the Sappers" it was 1986. The first engineer reinforcement squadron was deployed to the Province in October 1985. The sappers set to work with a will, and never let up. By the end of last year they had completely rebuilt two police stations; increased protection at 30 other police stations and Army bases; and erected new observation posts in south Armagh and improved existing ones. In addition, the Royal Engineers themselves designed new forms of blast walls, a new design of protected accommodation for police stations, and a new type of roof to overcome the effect of a mortar bomb.
In the past year there is no doubt that lives have been saved and injuries prevented as a direct result of the additional protection provided by the Royal Engineers. I know that the whole House will want to join with me in expressing our appreciation to the Royal Engineers for their life-saving work in Northern Ireland last year and in congratulating them on their 200th anniversary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
As for positive successes in 1986, the security forces killed four individuals engaged in terrorist activities, and 630 people had been charged with terrorist offences up to the end of November. A total of 215 weapons were found, together with more than 5,000 lb of explosives and 29,000 rounds of ammunition.
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Although this is a debate on the Army, I should particularly like to pay tribute to the immense and selfless contribution of the Royal Ulster Constabulary in the past year as it is fundamental to the Army's own efforts.
The RUC is in the front line in Northern Ireland in every sense. The lead responsibility for security is the RUC's; the Army is in a support role to the police, but they work together in the most closely integrated and coordinated way at all levels.
Once again, the RUC was the prime terrorist target and, for the second year running, suffered a greater number of men killed than either the Regular Army or the UDR. In addition, RUC officers and their families had to face deplorable physical harrassment, including petrol bombing of their homes from so-called loyalist extremists.
Notwithstanding those intense pressures, the RUC achieved policing of an exceptionally high standard, not merely in the calm, ordered and even-handed way in which it dealt with large-scale marches and demonstrations, but in the great skill and professionalism which it has shown in countering terrorist operations. The House will want to know that the great majority of the finds of terrorist weapons and explosives and of the terrorist arrests I mentioned were due to excellent police work by the RUC for whom praise cannot be too high.
Just as exposed to terrorist attack as the RUC are the men and women of the Ulster Defence Regiment, which is responsible for first line military support to the police in the 85 per cent. of the land area of the Province which contains about 80 per cent. of the population. Like the RUC, the men and women of the Ulster Defence Regiment are vulnerable to terrorist assassination off-duty as well as on, and after they have retired from the regiment as well as while they are serving. Last year the UDR suffered more men killed than the Regular Army in Northern Ireland, as has been the case for six out of the past 10 years. The grim reality of their off-duty vulnerability is brought out by the fact that of the 92 UDR soldiers who have lost their lives in the past 10 years, 74 have been murdered off duty. In addition, 31 men have been murdered who had already retired from service with the regiment. That the regiment has some 6,500 men and women serving with it today is a tremendous personal tribute to those concerned.
Sir John Biggs-Davison: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the subject of the Ulster Defence Regiment, I should like to ask him whether it might be possible for some of those politicians—perhaps also those south of the border who are ill-disposed towards the UDR, in spite of all that it does at great cost for the defence of the people—to be persuaded to pay a visit to the UDR to meet some of the battalions, to see what they are like and what they do, because that is of great importance. I do not agree with the Anglo-Irish agreement, but it is implicit in that agreement that there should be an understanding of the security arrangements on both sides of the border. Could some arrangement be made to educate some of those politicians as to what the Ulster Defence Regiment is really like?
Mr. Stanley: My hon. Friend will be glad to know that we have been engaged in that process. Last year we issued invitations to the political parties in the Province for briefings on the role of the UDR so that the precise nature of its work could be properly and dispassionately explained to them and so that we had the opportunity of

175
responding to their questions. Some responded to those invitations, but others did not. I entirely accept my hon. Friend's point, and we wish to get across the real nature of the work done by that important regiment.
Finally, turning to the Regular Army in Northern Ireland, we have maintained two additional battalions on four-month unaccompanied tours for the greater part of last year. That meant a total of eight infantry battalions having to make short-notice, unexpected, deployments to Northern Ireland in 1986. Despite the regimental and personal family disruption that caused, the battalions involved responded extremely well and quickly became effective on the ground. It is the infantry which is in the front line of the campaign, as is borne out by the fact that a total of 18 infantry battalions served in the Province during 1986.
The Army has been highly effective in the Province during 1986 with its intensive patrolling and its continually improving surveillance. There have been a number of conspicuous specific successes. The bomb disposal teams, who again cannot be praised too highly, have rendered safe some 82 separate devices containing over 9,000 lb of explosive. Quick action by a lance-corporal on his own initiative led to the find of three loaded weapons and the arrest of three men. A vigorous follow up by a Royal Marine patrol of a terrorist shoot in Belfast in September led to a terrorist being killed. Similarly swift action by a patrol in identifying and reacting to a shooting attack in Londonderry in February led to one terrorist being killed and one man being arrested and subsequently charged with attempted murder.
The courage and skill shown by Regular Army and the UDR in Northern Ireland last year is reflected in the 120 decorations for gallantry in Northern Ireland that were awarded. These included three Military medals, two George medals, and one Queen's gallantry medal.
The Army enters 1987 well-recruited and well-occupied. It has a great deal of new equipment that has come into service since 1979 and a great deal more in the pipeline. It performs a huge range of roles from counter-terrorism to disaster relief with unfailingly high professional standards and strong individual commitment.
The British Army is a fine standard-bearer for our country round the world and makes a key contribution to the maintenance of the peace with freedom that we enjoy at home. Our warm appreciation goes to the men and women of the British Army who serve us so very well.
5.36 pm
Mr. Denzil Davies: The Minister of State for the Armed Forces quite rightly paid tribute to the skill and professionalism of the Army—indeed, to all the armed forces—in the many roles that it is asked to perform in the United Kingdom, specifcally in Northern Ireland, and outside the United Kingdom in the places that he mentioned, for example, in Germany, the Falkland Islands, Belize and other parts of the world.
I readily pay tribute also, because on my visits to various armed units I have seen the professionalism and skill of the Army. No doubt that applies to other hon. Members. Therefore, I should like to pay my personal tribute to the forces and to say also that one is always struck by their niceness—I know that that is not an elegant word—and by their civility and good humour when one visits them. I am sure that I am speaking for most people who meet our armed forces.
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The Minister gave us the same world tour that he gave us last year. However, this time it was a little spiced with a bit of political knockabout and a few selective quotes here and there, no doubt on orders from Smith square because this might well be an election year. I understand why the Minister did that but, of course, he considered the past and talked very little about the future. I am not surprised about that because there is not much stomach these days in the Ministry of Defence for looking very far ahead in terms of the defence budget. One can understand that, because it is quite clear to most independent analysts that if, by some freak, the Tory party wins the next election, we shall pretty rapidly be faced with a major and fundamental defence review. There is little doubt about that, because the defence budget is out of control and the Government are not prepared to try to do anything to rein it back while facing what might be an election year.
Mr. Robert Atkins: What about the Labour party's defence review?
Mr. Davies: When the cuts start, they will fall on the Army as they will, no doubt, fall also upon the Navy and the Air Force. The cuts will fall not only on the Army, but on our contribution to NATO. The Minister mentioned commitment to NATO and, as he knows, 95 per cent. of our defence budget goes to NATO on conventional defence expenditure. When the cuts come, as they will, they will fall on conventional defence expenditure, and that means on our conventional contribution to NATO at a time when, I should have thought, we need to build up NATO's conventional defences and not weaken them. However, in view of the expenditure on Trident, the Government's policy will mean a reduction in the conventional contribution to NATO and, specifically in the case of the British Army, will mean a weakening of our contribution in Germany in respect of the British Army of the Rhine.
Mr. Marlow: On the subject of reducing our contribution in BAOR, if we arrive at the position explained by my right hon. Friend the Minister where 1(BR)Corps is the only fighting formation in Germany that does not have the nuclear umbrella—I think that hon. Gentlemen know what that means—and if, sadly, there is a conflict with the Warsaw pact and it threatens 1(BR)Corps with a nuclear onslaught, will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what he would say to our NATO allies? Would he say, "On no account do we want you to come to our defence," or would he say, "Yes, do came to our defence."?
Mr. Davies: I shall deal with that later. I was saying that it makes no sense to weaken the conventional arm of NATO within Europe to pay for Trident, which is basically what the Government will do. Conservative Members talk glibly about the nuclear umbrella. I would have thought that the first priority should be to strengthen conventional arms so that we never reach that awful moment when nuclear artillery and nuclear shells are called upon.
Dr. Alan Glyn rose—
Mr. Davies: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman later.
The cuts will come, first because the Government have ended the 3 per cent. NATO commitment initially entered into by the Labour Government. Secondly, the cuts will

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come because the Government have made a decision not to allow defence expenditure to increase in real terms. Thirdly, within the total of the declining defence expenditure, there is an escalating expenditure for Trident, certainly over the next four or five years. Therefore, the defence budget will be cut and there will be a major defence review if the Tories win the next election. Indeed, that has already started for the Army. I am interested to note that the Minister did not mention the fact that it is apparently reported that this year the Army has had to face £150 million-worth of cuts, and over the next two years it is reported that the Army will have to reduce its expenditure by up to 4 per cent. and that has been calculated to be about £250 million a year. No doubt that money will come from different parts of the armed forces but much of it will come as a result of not buying new equipment and postponing the purchase of the equipmet that is needed for our conventional defence in Europe.
Dr. Glyn: The Minister made it perfectly clear that the money that has been spent was on the modernisation of conventional forces and there is no sign of a reduction.
Mr. Davies: With respect, the Minister talked about the past but he did not say anything about next year. I can understand why he did not want to talk about next year for the reasons I have just given.
The major commitment, despite the problems in Northern Ireland, is the commitment of 55,000 troops in Germany. That is probably the furthest east that a standing British Army has ever been in peacetime for such a long period. That is a major commitment for Britain in view of our history and in view of our expenditure and so on.
Mr. Robert Atkins: What about India?
Mr. Davies: I meant to say furthest east in Europe. I accept that India is further east than Germany. It is a major commitment in terms of money, men and resources.
To enable the British Army to perform its function in Germany and to play its part in NATO, two things are necessary. It needs modern equipment. The Minister has recounted some of the improvements of the past few years. The Army together with our NATO allies needs to know that if war should break out in that part of Europe, the war it will be called upon to fight will be carried out in accordance with a sensible and credible military strategy.
Despite what the Minister said, there are woeful gaps in the equipment needed by the British Army of the Rhine. For instance, the Army is well short of the sort of anti-tank weapons and missiles that are required, especially in respect of the more modern Soviet tanks we have been told about. Artillery is another area of neglect. Perhaps artillery is always neglected in peacetime, I know not. It is certainly not as romantic or dramatic as driving around in tanks or sitting behind a 25-pounder, or whatever the latest type of weapon may be. However, perhaps the Minister could have told us something about the SP70. What is happening about that? Apparently, Britain, Germany and Italy have already spent about £250 million and Britain's share has been £88 million.
To make a speech about the Army and devote a third of it to our defences in Germany against the Warsaw pact, with its preponderance of artillery, and not even mention
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an expenditure of £88 million and the importance of the SP70 for the Army is ridiculous. Is it true that it is about to be cancelled and that it is only a question of which country will dare to do it first? Is it true that the Government are thinking of buying a piece of American equipment off the shelf? I hope that when the Minister winds up he will tell the House what is happening to the SP70, especially in view of the fact that the position on artillery, as General Farndale said some time ago, is not very good for the British Army of the Rhine.
Mr. Rogers: My right hon. Friend has mentioned the £250 million that has been spent on the SP70. Is it not true that only 15 of the howitzers have been made? That would mean a cost of £17 million per howitzer.
Mr. Davies: That may be the case. We would like to know where the £88 million has gone. I do not think that the SP70 is a particularly complex weapon; perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps we will be told where the money has gone when the Minister replies to the debate.
The Minister talked about Soviet tanks. Apparently there is a new generation of mine which is useful in stopping tanks. However, the Government announced before Christmas that they were not going ahead with the purchase and production of those mines. What is happening about the new generation of mines that could be so effective in stopping those tanks charging across the West German border?
This year we had half a sentence on helicopters. Last year we had a paragraph. Last year the Minister sought to make our flesh creep with an account of the new Soviet helicopters. He said:
"The formidable Hind anti-tank helicopter is still being added to the Warsaw pact front line at a fast rate.
The Warsaw pact's logistic support for its forces will shortly be further improved with the deployment of its new heavy lift helicopter… We saw for ourselves in the Falklands what a force multiplier helicopters in the logistic role can be."—[Official Report, 30 January 1986; Vol. 90, c. 1115.]
What are the Government doing about helicopters? Paragraph 68 of the report of the Select Committee on Defence said that a study was being conducted, that the results of the study would be known by the autumn and that the Government would make their decision at the end of 1986 or early this year. What has happened in respect of that study and what decisions will be made?
The British Army has never had a purpose-built anti-tank helicopter and it needs one. As I understand it, we are about 100 helicopters short of our NATO requirement on the central front. There are some unkind people who say that we have the oldest fleet of helicopters in the Western Alliance. Indeed, it may well be that we have fewer than 30 transporter helicopters, Chinooks and Pumas, on the central front. How can the Minister talk about the Army without mentioning artillery, helicopters or mines? They are all crucial defences against the Warsaw pact, especially the tanks, which, as we are continually reminded, it has in large numbers.
As well as equipment, our forces in Germany need to have a military strategy that is credible and sensible. That certainly is not the case any longer in respect of present NATO strategy.
NATO has now reached a point where its strategy of forward defence, the conventional arm of part of the strategy, and the strategy of flexible response, the nuclear

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part of that strategy, is no longer militarily credible. It owes far more to political considerations and to history than it does to military prudence.
We debate these matters very rarely in the House, but, put simply, NATO strategy is as follows. There is a massive conventional preponderance of arms with the Warsaw pact. The war in Europe will be a short conventional war, because the linear line of defence will be broken fairly quickly and the Germans, as somebody suggested from a sedentary position, do not wish to see any of their territory fought over in a conventional sense. After a few days, the request is made to go nuclear. Apparently, the strategy does not seek to defend territory conventionally, but is quite prepared to destroy that very territory which it is not prepared to defend conventionally by dropping nuclear shells and possibly nuclear bombs on that battlefield.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith: We are following the right hon. Gentleman's arguments, and we want to treat him seriously, as we trust he wants to treat the House. I am an assiduous attender of the North Atlantic Assembly; I chaired the military unit. I have never heard such a travesty. No one talks about dropping huge bombs on the battlefield after a few days because we are fed up fighting a conventional war, thus blowing ourselves up in the process.
Mr. Davies: The strategy is perfectly clear. It is—the Minister of State for the Armed Forces implied this, because this was his criticism of us—that if deterrence fails, and nobody has ever suggested that deterrence will never fail, or can never fail, war will become a battlefield nuclear war in central Europe. [Interruption.] What are these dual-capable artillery guns that the Minister was talking about for? What are all these nuclear weapons for, which in the main, the Americans have? They are there to be used; they are there to be dropped. They are there to be used should deterrence fail and a conventional war is being lost. In this case, "lost" means if German territory has to be given up. That is NATO strategy, and I am sorry that hon. Members either do not want to know or think about these things or prefer not to talk about them.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Mr. Davies: I shall not give way; other people wish to speak. The hon. Gentleman can make his own speech when the time comes.
Since most nuclear artillery in particular has a short range, it will, by definition, be used on NATO territory.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith: No.
Mr. Davies: Because of the short range of much of this artillery, and because the battle will be fought on NATO territory—nobody is suggesting that we are attacking the other side, and we are postulating the situation where a conventional war becomes nuclear—much of that artillery will be dropped on the NATO battlefield between the River Elbe on the one side and the River Weser on the other. Hon. Members should accept that, and they should not shut their eyes to it, because that is the reality of the position. [Interruption.] That artillery will be dropped on NATO territory because of its range and because it is there to destroy Russian tanks. I am sure that the Minister will tell hon. Members exactly what the range of those weapons is. It will fall on NATO territory to destroy Soviet
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formations, and that will inevitably destroy NATO forces, German towns and German civilian population. That has been, and is, the objection voiced by Chancellor Schmidt, Robert McNamara, Henry Kissinger and others. That has always been the objection to this crazy strategy of flexible response and forward defence.
Will the Minister tell us—he talked about the problems of not using these shells—who decides when this nuclear artillery will be used? Will it be after two or three days? With the difficulty of communication, field commanders may have to make a request within two or three days of that war breaking out. It may be seven or eight days. Who will decide? It will not be a military decision, but a political decision. Who will decide? Will it be the British Prime Minister, the German Chancellor, the Dutch or the Belgians? Who will decide to start a nuclear war in central Europe in the middle of a conventional war? The House is not told about these things. Nobody wants to know about or to listen to these things, but we should be told what the chain of decision is in the event of deterrence failing and the scenario, which NATO seems to believe could happen, actually happening.
Mr. Robert Atkins: While the right hon. Gentleman is on the subject of shells, will he consider the possibility, indeed the probability, of the Warsaw pact using its current chemical-capability shells—1 in 4? How would we respond to that? What would his reaction be if it started tossing those things at NATO? Would he forget about them, ignore them or try to respond in some way?
Mr. Davies: I do not wish to discuss chemical weapons. We do not disagree with the Government on chemical weapons. The Government have no intention of equipping the British forces in Germany with chemical weapons. I know that there is a lobby for chemical rearmament of the British Army. The hon. Gentleman has asked that question on numerous occasions. When he cannot think of anything else to say he is up on his feet talking about chemical weapons. It is an important subject.
The question of flexible response relates wholly to nuclear weapons. Presumably, since most of these nuclear warheads are American-made and owned, the decision will be taken by the President of the United States. There may be consultation with the German Chancellor and the British Prime Minister because of the involvement of the various forces with the weaponry, but the reality would be that an American President—perhaps the Minister will tell us when he replies—would decide.
What would he be asked? He would be asked, and he would have to decide, to unleash a first use, or a first strike, of nuclear weaponry, not from American territory to Russian territory, but on European soil in Germany, where there are hundreds of thousands of American troops and civilians as well as other NATO forces, and a large number of German citizens and towns.
We all have our opinions about these things. I do not believe that an American President, in view of the enormity of the moral and military consequences, would agree to unleash those weapons in Europe, thereby breaking the nuclear threshold and inviting a retaliatory nuclear attack from the Warsaw pact. Such a war would probably escalate into a general nuclear conflagration. I do not believe that it would happen.
The United States Defence Secretary, Caspar Weinberger—if I may mention his name from the

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Labour Benches—in a speech in the United States on 9 October 1985 completely rejected the strategy which is called flexible response. He sometimes talks sense and on that occasion he said:
"Our position"—
no doubt, the position of the United States—
"on the uses of military power represents a rejection of received wisdom about limited war and gradual escalation." If that is not a statement that he does not believe in flexible response either, I do not know what is, because the limited war is the limited battlefield war in central Europe, and the gradual escalation is the escalation from the so-called smaller weapons—the shells—on upwards, presumably, to the cruise and Pershing missiles. The truth is—the Conservative party realises this—that the strategy is completely incredible and out of date.
Mr. Stanley: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I can certainly assure him that the American Defence Secretary is committed to the doctrine of flexible response. I have been following the thrust of the right hon. Gentleman's arguments closely and I should be grateful if he could tell the House whether, if his policies were implemented and the 1st British Corps on the central front had no nuclear capability, the use of the formidable Soviet short-range nuclear capability against British forces on the central front would be more or less likely.
Mr. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman talks about the nuclear capability of the 1st British Corps. That nuclear capability in respect of artillery will only be there when a decision has been taken to release the shells which can then be used. The right hon. Gentleman talks as if that is a military decision; that the military capability is there, the commander puts the bomb in the howitzer and that is it. The right hon. Gentleman talks about the nuclear capability of the first British Corps, but who makes that decision? It is not a military but a political decision and every Government will preserve the right to decide whether to take that decision. The right hon. Gentleman does not know whether a British Prime Minister or an American President would allow the 1st British Corps to have that nuclear capability, as he calls it. Before it can have it, there must be a political decision to release the actual warheads.
Mr. Jerry Wiggin: I have been following the right hon. Gentleman's point with some care. If I understand him correctly, he is drawing a scenario in which the might of the Warsaw pact has been unleashed against NATO, and he questions, as everyone of us must have questioned, whether NATO will remain united and be prepared to use its weaponry against such an attack. If he questions that, how does he condone his party's policy of saying that it still supports NATO? He cannot have it both ways.
Mr. Davies: I am not questioning whether NATO will remain united. Surely the hon. Gentleman, as a former Defence Minister, will understand that I am making the point that the decision to use this so-called nuclear capability would be a political, not a military, decision, taken by the Governments of the time and, in the main, taken by the President of the United States. I do not believe that the President would do so, but that is a matter of belief.
Mr. Frank Cook rose—
Mr. Marlow: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Davies: No, I shall give way to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Cook: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. When considering the point made by the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin), perhaps my right hon. Friend would like to ponder the fact that, when references are made to the massive strength of the Warsaw pact and the great threat that it poses, the frontier posts on the northern boundaries of Norway—which, as my right hon. Friend will know, is a member of NATO—which guard against Soviet ingression receive their electricity supplies from Soviet power stations. What kind of threat would that be?
Mr. Davies: I shall not go into the threat within Norway. Perhaps we can discuss that in another debate. [Interruption.] Perhaps a naval debate would be more appropriate to discuss the threat in that part of Europe.
I was saying that the strategy is out of date. I am sure that Conservative Members often read their copies of the NATO treaty. Although article 2 of that treaty does not mention nuclear weapons, it is apparently considered to be the United States' commitment to the nuclear umbrella—if one wishes to use that cliché or shorthand. Article 2 was drafted when the United States had a nuclear monopoly. The Soviet Union had no nuclear weapons when article 2 was drafted, so it was perfectly easy to give that commitment. Then we moved from the monopoly of the United States to nuclear superiority and something had to be done about the original tripwire strategy. Of course, the something became the formulation of flexible response. That was still all right at that time because the United States still had quite massive superiority, as it did at the time of the Cuba crisis. But now superiority has become, at the least, parity in almost every area of nuclear weaponry. For that reason, the strategy must change and I have no doubt that eventually it will because it makes no sense.
Again, let me quote Caspar Weinberger in the same speech from which I quoted earlier, when he made that very point:
"The world has changed so profoundly"—
listening to the Minister, one would not think so—
"since the 1950s and 1960s when most of our strategic ideas were formulated that many of these concepts are now obsolete."
That is the Defence Secretary of the United States commenting on the NATO strategy of flexible response.
We believe that the only sensible defence, and, of course, deterrence, is and would be a conventional one in central Europe. [Interruption.] The moment that one mentions conventional defence we have this hysteria from the Conservative party. We are told about the massive Russian conventional superiority. The Prime Minister implied—perhaps said, although I do not have the quotation—that it was impossible to bridge the gap in conventional weapons. I see some hon. Members nodding sagely. Therefore we would always have to have nuclear weaponry. That is not the view of the United States, but that is the level of the debate that we have in Britain on such matters.
If the Russians have such massive conventional superiority, if they have so many more battalions, the war

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cannot be won even with battlefield nuclear weapons. Presumably, if we drop ours, they will do the same, and at the end of the day the bigger battalions will win.
Let us look again at conventional Soviet superiority. It cannot be denied that in some areas there is a gap while in others there is not. I do not believe, and most independent experts do not believe, that that gap is unbridgeable. It can be bridged, given the political will, with some increase—not a great increase—in financial resources and if there is a movement away from the simple linear forward defence to a defence in greater layers in that part of Germany which would be affected. One thing is certain—
Mr. Marlow: A sort of Maginot line.
Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman intervenes again.
One thing is certain. The Russians certainly are not in a position to fight a conventional war of attrition in that part of Europe. For a start, the Western Alliance—the United States, Canada and the European countries—have twice the population of the Warsaw pact. Economic capacity and economic strength are difficult matters to work out. There is certainly a 4:1 or 5:1 advantage in economic and industrial power. The Soviet Union will be faced not only by Germany, as it was in the last war, but by most of Germany this time, plus, of course, the United States, all the other countries in NATO, and the Chinese who are perched on its border.
Frankly, the idea that the Russians would be capable of fighting a war of attrition against the West, is ridiculous. It would be hard for them to sustain a standing start blitzkreig, despite the fact that they have 4·8 million men in uniform. In fact, about one third of those men are not militarily capable of fighting because they are engaged in other duties. Having accepted that, it still would be virtually impossible for them to sustain the kind of blitzkreig attack that is mentioned from time to time.
On current deployment, the Soviet Union units probably could mount a surprise attack only in East Germany and Czechoslovakia. If it sought to use and move its units in the Ukraine and western military districts, it is doubtful whether it would be able to conduct a surprise attack that would guarantee it some advantage or victory.
I repeat that we accept entirely that there is some gap, especially in ground forces in central Europe, equipment and, indeed, the way in which they are deployed. That gap can be closed by providing more equipment in certain areas, but it is necessary to consider the concept of forward defence because it needs to be restructured.
Despite some modifications—I think that the Minister of State for the Armed Forces announced some modification last year—forward defence is still a linear defence, not a static defence. It is a linear defence with tanks. That is what is wrong with it. There are mechanised troops—troops in tanks, best suited for operational manoeuvre and manoeuvre in depth. They are pinned down in a linear forward defence. Frankly, nobody believes—the Germans will not believe this—that that type of linear forward defence can possibly hold. It is bound to break under a mass attack of tanks from the other side, not because we are weak but because the strategy of using tanks for that purpose does not make much military sense.
Many military experts have been mentioned. There are military experts in Germany and Britain. People such as
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General Sir Hugh Beach, General Sir Edward Burgess and Brigadier Richard Simkins, who wrote an interesting book on this subject, have argued that forward defence should gradually give way to a more layered defence in part of Germany, thereby making it unnecessary to go through the nonsense of pretending that, somehow, we can use nuclear weaponry in the defence of western Europe.
I must not mention ditches. That would be a terrible subject to mention. In fact, as the House well knows, it was an American idea to have tank traps or ditches, but there are physical and electronic barriers and land mines, which the Government do not want the British Army to have. Physical and electronic barriers could be used as a first layer. It is perfectly possible to have, as a second layer, lightly armed infantry and then, as a third layer of manoeuvrability, tanks. [Interruption.] Hon. Members can make their own speeches. I have discovered that the Tory party does not take defence seriously. It trots out the handouts it gets and does not attempt to think through strategy or any other problems. With that kind of gradual change—the change will be gradual—in the concept of forward defence, it will be possible to have a much greater defence in depth in Germany and we would not have to resort to the nonsense of thinking we can use nuclear weapons.
It is depressing that we do not debate these matters very often in the House. In this possible election year, it is almost impossible to debate these matters as Tory Members trot out their clichés and their handouts from Smith square. As long as we have these attitudes, as long as there is no attempt to discuss strategy, as long as there are cuts because of Trident and the declining defence budget, and unless someting is done, over the next few years, the British Army will be faced with equipment that is not up to standard and, whatever happens, will be faced with a strategy that makes no military sense.
6.16 pm
Sir Antony Buck: It was interesting to listen to the speech of the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies). He should discuss the latter part of his speech with some of his colleagues, particularly the right hon. Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert), who wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Telegraph in October. He dealt with the point which the right hon. Gentleman adumbrated in the last few moments of his speech. In his article, the right hon. Member for Dudley, East wrote:
"The idea that you can keep up our conventional forces by a few tanks and a couple of frigates and that this would compensate NATO commanders for the loss of their nuclear facilities is misleading to the point of mendacity."
I should not have put it as strongly as that but perhaps it would be wrong to put it more mildly. The right hon. Member for Llanelli might care to deal with the point raised by the right hon. Member for Dudley, East who delivered such a severe indictment.
I welcome the fact that we continue to have single service debates. The matters of grand strategy with which the right hon. Member for Llanelli dealt—frankly, I do not think that his strategy was grand—were less appropriate for a debate on the Army than for our broad debates on the White Paper. Single service debates enable us to home in on matters of more detail in relation to the armed forces. Some hon. Members had considerable doubts about the organisation of the Ministry of Defence

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and, particularly, the abolition of single service Ministers. One of the assurances that we received at the time of the reorganisation was that single service debates would continue, so that we could home in on matters relating specifically to the individual forces and, as a general rule, save broad strategic considerations of defence for the general debate on the White Paper.
It is my privilege to represent a garrison constituency. I represent Colchester, North, and my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary represents the other part of that garrison town. We work harmoniously together and, I am glad to say, with the garrison. The eastern district headquarters are in Colchester. We have an admirable relationship with Major-General Ramsay, the GoC. He goes to considerable lengths to keep in touch with the local such as my right hon. Friend and myself. We have an extremely amicable relationship.
The headquarters of 19 Infantry Brigade, or 19 Air Portable Brigade—perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister will tell me exactly what it is called—currently are in Colchester. Other units of considerable importance are situated there also. The military corrective training centre, which is nearing its 50th anniversary—it may be even older—is at long last in the concluding stages of rebuilding. For years the centre has occupied wasteful and uncomfortable nissen huts, but the rebuilding is coming to fruition. It is very much hoped that some senior personage—perhaps a member of the royal family—will open the new MCTC.
Mr. Michael Mates: Prince Edward.
Sir Antony Buck: I shall not respond to my hon. Friend's intervention from a sedentary position.
Admirable work is done at the MCTC. It has certain advantages over similar civilian institutions. All the soldiers under sentence are young and fit and can be kept busy in a way that is not possible in a civilian prison. I pay tribute to the work done over the years by the MCTC. Because of pressure from both sides of the House over a long period, the centre will at last move from its old clapped-out nissen huts to new premises. Everyone, especially the staff, in Colchester is grateful for that.
The 19 Air Portable Brigade is part of the strategic reserve and an important unit. There are also resident battalions in my constituency which change with some rapidity. It is difficult to keep track of them because often they go on tours to Northern Ireland. At the moment, we have an extremely good relationship with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders which are doing a term of duty in the Falkland Islands. I think that all hon. Members will wish them well in their work.
It is appropriate for me, as chairman of the Conservative party's defence committee, to pay tribute to the work of our armed forces in the Falklands. I had the privilege of leading the first parliamentary delegation to the Falklands after the confrontation and after we had dispatched the Argentines. I had the pleasure of the company of several Opposition Members. The journey was an extraordinary experience. One can look at a map to see the fantastic distances that must be covered to send an expeditionary force to the other side of the world, but there is nothing like covering the route oneself.
There was a relatively comfortable journey to Ascension Island in a DC10. The flight was dry but, other
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than that, it was like an ordinary civilian aeroplane. One travelled from Ascension Island in a semi-pressurised Hercules—an extraordinary experience. For 16 hours one pounded over the ocean. Two in-flight refuellings were carried out with remarkable expertise by the Royal Air Force. I went up to the co-pilot's seat for the second in-flight refuelling by a former V bomber and saw the difficulties encountered. The maximum speed of a Hercules is about equal to the stalling speed of a former V bomber, so in-flight refuelling occurs from a low dive from 28,000 or 29,000 ft to about 6,000 ft. The RAF carried out the refuelling in a relaxed and amazingly skilful way. The Hercules was packed with army equipment and personnel.
Our armed forces can be very proud of their work in the Falklands. Operations in the Falklands are tri-service, as they were during the war. Inevitably and rightly, the Army plays a major part, although all the services share the credit for maintaining our position in the Falklands. We are grateful to the armed forces for the way in which they are sustaining themselves and our presence there.
We are all grateful to the Army for its clearing of the minefields. Laying those minefields was one of the most irresponsible actions of the Argentines. Many of the mines are plastic, which are virtually undetectable by conventional mine-detecting devices. I saw men prodding inch by inch with bayonets to get the mines out of the ground. I believe that that hazardous exercise has finished, although some parts of the Falklands have been cordoned off with barbed wire. That land probably will never be utilised because of the virtually indestructible plastic mines used by the Argentines. I believe that the presence of the Army in the Falklands will prevent any foolhardy successor to Galtieri from embarking on a similar venture.
It seems to me, because I remain in pretty close touch with the Army in and near my constituency, that Members on both sides of the House should be proud of the calibre of our armed forces. One could almost say that too high a proportion of our talented young people go into the armed forces, but it would be inappropriate for me as chairman of the Conservative party's defence committee seriously to put forward such a view. One never ceases to be amazed at the extraordinarily high calibre of the young men whom one meets in the messes of the Army and the other services. We are fortunate that we have in our country people who are prepared to sustain the armed forces. We can be confident that the quality and calibre of today's Army fully lives up to the calibre of those who served in the past.
6.27 pm
Mr. John Cartwright: I should like to follow the hon. and learned Member for Colchester, North (Sir A. Buck) in paying tribute to the Army's performance, skill and dedication. Like him, I represent a traditional Army town. I have lived there for 25 years. One cannot live for so long in a town such as Woolwich without being well aware of how much we owe to the professionalism and commitment of our soldiers.
Woolwich has provided essential support services to the Army for generations. I hope that the House will therefore understand if I begin with some domestic issues which affect the community in Woolwich. In my 12 years as a Member of Parliament representing Woolwich I have had to fight a constant rearguard action against nationalisation, closure, privatisation, contractorisation and

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wholesale relocation of Army support units in Woolwich which have traditionally provided an important source of employment for my constituents.
Two issues are, once again, causing major concern, both of them long-running sagas. One involves the Army cataloguing authority. Several years ago, it was proposed that it should he removed to Glasgow. There was a long argument about the proposal which made no sense in operational terms, and we ended up with a clear categorical assurance from the then Minister that there would be no removal to Glasgow. Therefore, we were surprised to find last year that the future of the Army cataloguing authority was once again in doubt and that the co-location of this unit with another unit certainly did not rule out its removal to Glasgow after all. Since then, there has been an ominous quiet about this proposal and there is anxiety among the staff. It would be helpful if the Minister could tell us something about that proposal.
Rather more serious is the matter of the future of the headquarters of the director of quality assurance. Those headquarters have been at Woolwich arsenal for many years and several years ago we were assured that they would be permanently located there. A great deal of work has gone into the reorganisation of the Woolwich arsenal site. A new head office building has been on the drawing board for years waiting to go ahead, but then suddenly we were told recently that the new Secretary of State for Defence had decided to examine the possibility of removing that headquarters operation to a site outside south-east England. For many of us, Woolwich without the Woolwich arsenal would be like Blackpool without Blackpool tower.
Apart from our emotional commitment, Woolwich has an unemployment rate of 16 per cent. and to remove a traditional source of employment would cause considerable anxiety. The long delay in making a final decision on these issues must be costly and is certainly causing considerable uncertainty to the staff. Anything firm and clear that the Minister could say would be extremely welcome.
I noted that in his speech the Minister picked out for the alliance share in the statutory attack on both opposition parties the concept of a battlefield nuclear weapon-free zone. As I am sure he knows, that was originally proposed by the Palme commission. Missing in what he said about that concept was that it is not designed to provide some sort of sanctuary from nuclear weapons in a clear, defined area. The concept of the battlefield nuclear weapon-free zone or corridor sought to remove some of the dangers of having battlefield nuclear systems actually deployed on the battlefield. In that situation they are vulnerable to a conventional attack.
That gives rise to the classic problem that commanders would have to face at an early stage in a conventional Soviet attack. They would have to decide whether the battlefield nuclear systems should be used or lost because of the risk of their being overrun. We are always assured that there is no risk, that there are adequate safeguards, and that there can be no release of nuclear systems without political consideration and political decisions. I have always found that a somewhat doubtful scenario against the background of a conventional conflict having broken out in central Europe. The idea that 16 nations can solemnly consider the possibility of using battlefield nuclear systems when the conflict is raging around them is somewhat unrealistic.
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The difficulty that many of us see about battlefield nuclear weapons is that they reduce the nuclear threshold and change the nature of nuclear weapons from being systems of absolutely last resort to war fighting systems. In that sense, they are the most dangerous nuclear weapons that we have. NATO has substantially reduced its stockpile of shorter range nuclear warheads and the Montebello decision will reduce those stockpiles still further. The idea of a battlefield nuclear weapon-free zone is a logical extension of that approach which would reduce the risks of nuclear conflict in Europe.
The Minister's speech seemed extremely reassuring, not to say complacent, in the picture that he painted of the current state of our armed forces in general and the Army in particular. One did not get any sense of the squeeze on resources which is pointed to by analysts and experts. It was not possible to get the sense of a declining defence budget which is likely to reduce in real terms by about 7 per cent. over the next three years. In terms of equipment and manpower, one did not get a sense of the pressures which that declining budget will inevitably exert.
The problem of recruiting and, more importantly, of retaining the high quality of personnel that we need in the Army certainly did not come through in the Minister's speech. If we want that sort of quality we must pay, clothe, house and feed our service men in a way which keeps them up to the rising living standards of people outside the Army. That implies a rise in real unit costs in service manpower of about 2 to 3 per cent. and that adds to our difficulties about the manpower problem.
The sophistication of weapon systems about which the Minister spoke means that we shall place greater demands on skills and on highly trained and proficient service men. We did not hear from the Minister about the problem of demography, the fact that the numbers of recruitable people in the 17 to 30-year-old age group available to the armed forces will decline sharply from the late 1980s. In 1983, for example, there were almost 2 million 16 to 19-year-olds—1,929,000 to be precise. By 1995, that will drop to 1,351,000. That drop will add to the problems about the costs of recruitment and retention. Some of our European neighbours have the same difficulty and as a result some have increased and extended their conscription systems. That is not a possible option in Britain. Conscription is not a political possibility and the price that has to be paid in terms of the loss of efficiency is not a price that many military people would want to consider.
One of the difficulties coming through is the problem of retaining key staff. When we spend a lot of time, effort and money in training key people, to lose them early is very wasteful. What is called in the trade premature voluntary outflow does not affect only the Army, because, of course, this week it had a distinguished victim in the Royal Marines.
A number of reasons are given for people leaving the services early. Many of the military suggest that the overstretch of our forces is a major factor. They say that there is too much overseas duty, that the Army is being asked to do too much with limited resources and that this has an adverse impact on the lives of officers and men. Some suggest that it is due to the lack of the equipment that is necessary adequately to train people, and some point to the deficiencies of modern equipment.
Last week, an article in one of our national newspapers said that British soldiers are less well protected by their combat clothing than virtually any of the armies of our

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European neighbours. One defence industry source is quoted as saying that every army in western Europe will have flak jackets on general issue before the British Army. There were suggestions that the existing programme in the Ministry of Defence for purchasing flak jackets may have to be reduced because of spending cuts.
Mr. Stanley: Nonsense.
Mr. Cartwright: From a sedentary position the Minister says, "Nonsense." I hope that the Minister who replies to the debate will be able to deal with that point, because clearly that sort of suggestion has an impact on morale and that has an effect on the problem of people leaving early.
Mr. Derek Conway: The hon. Gentleman speaks about equipment for the Army. Now that he holds the position as principal defence spokesman for the alliance will he reconsider the placing of his name to early-day motion 342?
In that motion a company in my constituency called Multilift (UK) Ltd., which has recently obtained an order to supply the DROPS project to the Army, is alleged, together with its parent company Partek of Finland, to have supplied the Soviet Union in general and the Soviet army in particular. Is he aware that Multilift in Shrewsbury has categorically denied that this is the case and has said that its parent company Partek has less than 5 per cent. of its business supplying refuse disposal equipment to the Soviet Union and supplies no military equipment whatever? Before making his allegations, perhaps the hon. Gentleman would check his sources—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must make an intervention, not a long speech.
Mr. Cartwright: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the information. That early-day motion was tabled before the recess in response to information from a variety of sources and in response to concern on both sides of the House about the DROPS contract and the way in which it was placed. The sort of assurance that the hon. Gentleman has just given will be generally welcomed by all concerned.
Speaking about the outflow of key personnel leads me to remind the House that the Minister told us last July that there had been considerable concern in the Ministry of Defence about this problem and that specific studies were being undertaken into various aspects of early departure from the services. We were told in July that the results of these studies would be available by the year end. We have not yet seen them. Again, it would be useful if the Minister, when replying, would tell us the current position regarding those inquiries and what steps might result to deal with the problem and perhaps reduce it.
I should like to refer to the problem of the defence budget pressures on equipment, because some analysts tell us that the price of major weapons systems is rising at roughly twice the rate of inflation. Examination of past expenditure figures suggests that the cost of general defence procurement is 3 to 5 per cent. above the annual rate of inflation. That again will mean that a reducing defence budget will buy less equipment because of the problem of rising prices. The Government have told us that they hope to tackle the problem by achieving increased efficiency and competition in the supply of
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goods and services and by extending international collaboration to spread research and development costs and to reduce production costs through longer runs. Both are extremely welcome approaches, and I hope that they succeed. But I doubt very much that they will produce the sort of savings necessary to provide the sort of equipment and levels of manpower that we will need.
One is looking always for major savings in this defence area in order to fund all the improvements that all of us would like to see. It is hard to see where those savings might come, but there is one out-of-area commitment which simply must be re-examined, the commitment to fortress Falklands. The total costs attributable to the Falklands commitment between 1982 and 1994 have been estimated at £4·65 billion at 1983–84 prices. Much of that expenditure is now irrecoverable. It is the essential replacement of war losses that goes into capital investment. But the running costs of the Falklands garrison are now put at £135 million a year, and much of that could be more usefully redirected into the NATO commitment if our fortress Falklands commitment could be reduced or, better still, liquidated. I should like a very much higher priority to be given to diplomatic efforts to find a fairer solution to that problem.
It seems to many of us on both sides of the House that there is no escaping the need for a thorough review of defence priorities. I should like to see that review as part of a European exercise. It is essential that the European members of NATO examine the shape and size of their forces and try to agree on the extent and nature of a more effective division of labour. That would cover the obvious issues of forces currently deployed, the availability of reserves, equipment procurement and research and development. All these things have been discussed regularly over the years, but trying to achieve them is much more important and urgent now than ever before because of the continuing debate and continuing doubt about the extent of the United States manpower commitment to western Europe.
I believe that predictions of a total United States withdrawal are very much exaggerated unless we have a British Government who seek massively to renege on their commitments to NATO, when we might well see a substantial and dramatic change in American policies. But without that we have to face the fact that there will be continuing pressures on the American defence budget and hence growing pressures to reduce the manpower commitment to Europe. In conversations that I have had with him, the supreme allied commander Europe, General Rogers, has given me the clear impression that we would be unwise to assume that the Americans will go on committing 326,000 ground troops to Europe for the foreseeable future. If we are to encourage the United States to maintain and effective commitment to Europe, we have to show that Europe is determined to be doing more to defend itself.
We cannot go on pretending that everything can continue as it is at the moment against a background of a fall in defence expenditure. To do that would be to put greater pressures on our service men than is fair or reasonable. There will obviously be no major defence review this side of the coming general election, but I believe that it must and will come soon after that election, whoever forms the next Government.
6.48 pm
Mr. Michael Mates: It is a particular pleasure for me to be able on this occasion to follow the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright). It allows me to congratulate him most warmly on his rejoining the Select Committee. He and I were on it when it started in 1980 and his contribution then was very valuable and sensible. It was because his views were largely so sensible in this area that he must have felt constrained, with others of his friends, to leave the Labour party when it started proposing the sort of loony rubbish that we have heard tonight and that he could no longer stand. So we all look forward to having him back and contributing again to the defence debate, and long may he this time remain a member of the Committee.
May I also congratulate the hon. Gentleman, in slightly different vein, on taking on the arduous task of defence responsibility for both his own party and the Liberal party. This, it is stressed, is only temporary, and for that he must be somewhat grateful. In view of the sensible speech that the hon. Member has just made, has made in the past and will no doubt make in the future, and the largely sensible comments of the leader of his party, and comparing them with one or two of the remarks of the Liberal Members, higlighted in their conference last summer when they were propounding even more loony policies than are coming out of the Liberal party at the moment, it will be a difficult circle for him to square, and I shall watch with some affectionate amusement his attempts to do that and convince us that he really does speak for both those parties whose defence policies are so different.
I should like to make two brief points about the Army and our forces as I have been fortunate to see them in the past months. Before I do that, however, I have to put on record my utter disgust at the sheer irresponsibility of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) on the radio yesterday. There was a minor accident involving the sliding of a large vehicle off the road into a ditch which the hon. Gentleman—on reflection, he must know that he was going too far—compared with Chernobyl. Two things need to be said about this.
First, the hon. Gentleman said that it was crazy that anyone should be moving military equipment about in the winter. Will he please tell the Russians that? If he can get an agreement that they will stop the moment the first snowflake falls and do nothing in the military field until the spring sun has melted all their snows, I am certain that my right hon. Friend will be very keen to accommodate them in this matter. But as long as we have to be ready all the time, prepared all the time, and when our defence forces have at all times to be at complete readiness for any untoward attack, vehicles will have to be moved in the snow and ice and there will be the odd mishap.
I entirely agree with the Ministry of Defence policy never to state publicly what it is moving and where. That can only help the enemy. Our people do not need to know; they just need to know that they are properly defended. But even if we were moving any form of nuclear warhead, for the hon. Gentleman to compare the likelihood of a similar accident with an inert, unarmed warhead, with a fully working, unsafe reactor can only frighten the ignorant. Since he is not one of the ignorant, it is too irresponsible for me to let the matter pass.
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The Select Committee has had the chance to see quite a bit of the British Army in the last two or three months, most notably in the exercise in Oman to which my right hon. Friend the Minister of State referred. We were there for the large part of the active bit of that exercise and I want to add my congratulations on the way that our services mounted that exercise. It was an outstanding achievement in joint service co-operation. From the initial planning to the mounting of the operation—the getting out of the Tornados for the first time, flying in a single stage of about 11 hours from the United Kingdom with two refuellings—was an amazingly good technical achievement. The planning of the joint staffs to get the naval forces, the Royal Marines, the Army and the Air Force all there at the right time, with the capability to do their job, drew unbounded admiration from everybody who watched it.
We went out before dawn for the major day of the exercise. As dawn broke we saw the naval task force about three miles offshore. We saw the Marine commandos come in and land across the beaches, with the naval helicopters bringing in the support, the live artillery, the weapons and the equipment that were needed. Later that morning we saw the drop of the 2nd Battalion of the Parachute Regiment. All these operations were carried out with the sort of professional skill that we have come to expect but which nevertheless we admire and which ought to be put on record.
The whole of that exercise has done nothing but good, not only for the confidence of our services but for the respect in which the professionalism of those services is held throughout the western world. In addition, the co-operation of a friendly Government in that very sensitive area of the world, which incidentally was watched by many representatives of the other Gulf states, can only have increased the awareness of potential enemies or aggressors in that part of the world that we are prepared to help our friends. We have the capability. My goodness me, if they try anything, we will do it, and do it well.
We were in Oman for four or five days and during the rest of our time we had a chance to see not only the Omani services at work but those many individuals from the three services here who are serving with the Sultan of Oman's forces either on loan or on contract. We met many of them. Their morale was high. They are adding a professional dimension to the Sultan's forces which are growing in efficiency day by day and are being taken over more and more by Omani-trained and Omani native officers and other ranks who are bringing those forces into a state of readiness second to none in the Gulf. The work that is being done by our service men out there on contract is absolutely exemplary.
The second point which I want to raise about the armed forces involves the Brigade of Gurkhas. We had the opportunity, while we were in Hong Kong, to visit their training establishment and to see the high state of their morale and their professionalism in the job that they do in training Ghurkhas to stand side by side with some of the finest units in the British Army.
There is a problem behind that—the ending of the lease in Hong Kong in 10 years' time. The Select Committee has been addressing itself to that problem for some time. We have been concerned about the future of the Brigade of Gurkhas, and 18 months ago we asked the MOD to outline its thinking to us. That prompted an announcement by the then Secretary of State, my right

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hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), in September 1985 that there would a continuing role for the Gurkhas after 1997 within the British Army. So it is from that basis that we start. He also said that the final size and shape of the Gurkhas would turn on operational resource factors facing the entire British Army at the time, which it was too early to foresee at that stage.
Given the time which those now joining can expect to serve, and given the unique contribution of the Gurkhas to our armed forces and the importance of this relationship not only to ourselves but to the kingdom of Nepal, the Committee has said that during the present Session of Parliament it will look into the whole question of how some of the political problems can be addressed. I hope that this will be of help to the House when we report and to the Ministery of Defence which is still considering this matter from many points of view.
Speaking for myself, may I say how delighted I am that that remark was made about the Gurkhas remaining with us after 1997 and how strongly I feel personally that nothing should be done to alter that? I am very fortunate and proud to have the serving battalion of Gurkhas in the United Kingdom in my constituency. I shall spend a day with them in a week or two's time. I have seen them before and I know well how professionally they operate alongside the rest of the British Army. Indeed, we know the sterling service that they performed when they went as a unit of the British Army to the Falklands conflict.
There will be difficulties. There are problems that have to be solved, but the knowledge that we shall have the Gurkhas as part of our fighting forces for the foreseeable future after we have given Hong Kong back to the Chinese is a great comfort to me. I am certain that it is a great comfort to all those who know how well and how loyally the Gurkhas have served us over the years.
6.55 pm
Mr. Ted Garrett: So far the debate has been quite interesting but I should like to issue a warning to Conservative Members that it is unwise to rubbish the statements of my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies). We want an adult debate, not an infantile debate. Whether Conservative Members like it or not, a debate is going on amongst the ordinary citizens of this country as to what the role of the conventional forces will be and whether we are to have a role as a nuclear nation. That debate will not go away. If Conservative Members were to follow the early statements of their leader, they would welcome the debate. Certainly I welcome it.
I am not a unilateralist or a pacifist but we have to get rid of the original thinking on the Government side which could be dangerous, namely, the Field Marshal Earl Haigh type of mentality that led us into disaster in the first war. Conservative Members should remember that in defence there is evolution. Situations change, weaponry changes and tactics change, so defence should not follow and never has followed rigid policies.
I am pleased that the ordinary serving members have been mentioned because this matter gives some concern. Conversations I have had with men serving in the regular forces are somewhat frightening. Because of the large number of people who are unemployed, about 3 million, it is becoming increasingly difficult for those who have
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proudly served their corps or their regiment, in whatever rank, for 16 to 22 years to get jobs on leaving the services. Without doubt these men are exceptionally well qualified to take jobs in civilian life but I am beginning to discern some discrimination.
The matter was brought to my attention by officers who, after retirement from the forces, applied for civilian jobs in various parts of the public service—for example, with police authorities. Because they have received an army pension at the age of 47 to 50 they are considered not to be the type of person to employ even though they may have superior qualifications. I name Northumbria police. I understand that Cleveland constabulary and the Devon and Cornwall constabulary have taken a similar view. I have referred just to the police but other parts of the public service are also denying those men employment because they have served in and obtained pensions from Her Majesty's forces. The matter requires attention. The Minister should send a quiet word to the responsible authorities. I might add that these decisions are not all being made by Left-wing loonies.
The conditions for the serving men are, without any doubt, far superior to the conditions when I and some of my colleagues served in the armed forces. However, there is still a grouse about housing conditions. I am aware that regimental welfare officers are doing their best. However, the main problem arises from the fact that some of the houses that were built 30 or 40 years ago now require modernisation. The Minister may care to consider that and decide whether any financial resources can be allocated for the improvement of housing conditions.
I was heartened by the Minister's statement about equipment. There is no doubt that the amount of equipment going to the regular and the territorial forces is excellent. I have seen no signs of inferior equipment or any lack of equipment required by the personnel. I was especially impressed by the training efforts that take place within the Territorial Army.
I live in the northern area from which two out of five of the people who serve in the armed forces at present originate. Catterick and Otterburn are in this northern area, and there is a long tradition relating to the armed forces because in depressions, in wartime and during periods of relative prosperity, there has never been a problem of obtaining recruits. The Minister mentioned the 200th anniversary of the Corps of Royal Engineers. However, there are regiments in the north that can claim a foundation of 312 years or more. The Royal Engineers are simply apprentices as yet.
One day I should like the Minister to visit the territorial battalions in the area. I should like to extend an invitation to him to come on a regimental day and see the St. George's day parade of the 6th Battalion Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. If he comes, he will see the equipment and the vigour of the men on display and he will be very proud of that.
I would also like the Minister to consider the speech made before Christmas by the senior officer responsible for the Territorial Army. When addressing the Northern Territorial Association, the senior officer made a prophetic statement. He advised the officers responsible for training to remember that the men, while they are being trained to a degree of efficiency, are also civilians. They have a life to lead beyond the armed forces. He said that over-training may be a factor that could discourage recruitment. In other words, he said that the men should

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be trained but that the training should be balanced with an interest and a belief in the service of the Territorial Army. I wonder whether the Corps of Royal Marines is possibly relying too much on training and de-humanising people to the extent that people have to have another life as well as a commitment to that magnificent corps.
One of the problems faced by the Territorial Army is how to deal with recruits who wish to serve in the Territorial Army, but who are unemployed. A greater number of recruits would join the Territorial Army from among the unemployed if we were to straighten out the financial position relative to deductions of unemployment benefit while the unemployed serve a day, several days or parts of days with the Territorial Army. That problem has never been satisfactorily resolved. It is unfair that some people in employment serving in the Territorial Army do not have daily pay or salary deducted yet they can rightly claim the appropriate allowances. That is a deterring factor in the recruitment from among the unemployed.
I understand that in the northern region there is a good core of Territorial Army officers waiting for other ranks to be recruited. In the north-east—and on Tyneside in particular—it may now be an appropriate time to consider the formation of another infantry battalion. I am sure that that would soon get up to strength and that there would be no problems of officer recruitment.
The British people have always had some regard for the armed forces. There is a tradition because of our imperial role and because people have had sons, brothers, uncles or grandfathers who have been killed in the service of the country or who have served the country. We like to know what is happening in the Army and we want to see its profile kept at the right level. We want the best of the British Army to be displayed.
In conclusion, there should be a little more swank on display than has previously been the case. That swank could be in the best interests and be one of the best morale builders for the Army. I hope that the Minister will consider my point. I could carry on at length and describe my experiences with the Western European Union on which I served for seven years as a delegate pursuing harmonisation. However, perhaps we can debate that at some other time.
7.6 pm
Dr. Alan Glyn: I congratulate the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) on his remarks about the unemployed and the Territorial Army. There are difficulties, but I am certain that they can be easily surmounted. I also agree with the hon. Gentleman that the public is concerned about defence. Although that may not figure as the major issue, it will certainly he an important feature in the next election. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman on that point.
Mr. Garrett: I must apologise to the hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn) for not giving full attention to his speech. I am a member of a Standing Committee and a whisper has reached my ears that I should go and vote in the Committee. I hope that it will not be considered discourteous if I leave the Chamber in two or three minutes' time.
Dr. Glyn: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that explanation otherwise I might have thought that he was leaving for other reasons.
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In common with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Sir A. Buck) and the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright), I have a vested interest as I represent the garrison constituency of Windsor and Maidenhead, and have similar problems.
I want to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister on the improvements that he has managed to achieve in the services. I may be wrong—if I am perhaps I will be corrected—but I believe that some of the improvements have been achieved not only by injecting more money but by making economies in the service. Many of the improvements are very important. Some may be minor, for example, the improvements in night sights, but nevertheless they are important.
Although this is a debate on the Army, as many hon. Members have observed, it has developed into a more general defence debate. I do not think that that is in any way to be discouraged. After all, the Army is a major part of NATO and of our defences. To a large extent, the NATO defences are dependent on the Army as opposed to the other forces. The other armed forces are not vital to the support of NATO.
According to the NATO Review 1986:
"the Soviet aim could be the improvement of their conventional forces, in quantity and quality, to support a strategy and policy of peace by dominance".
The review continues by saying that the Soviet conventional forces such as FROG-7 bring a
"realisation of the growing disparity between the balance of forces"
in the Soviet Union and our own. This includes the ability to move troops from other areas such as the border with China, the Urals and various other parts of Russia. It is possible that the forces at their command are much greater than we imagined them to be.
The right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) referred to nuclear weapons. He fails to recognise that the reason for 40 years of peace is the independent nuclear deterrent. The hon. Member for Woolwich suggested that, if we were to change our policy, our American allies, who have been so loyal and generous to this country and to NATO, would withdraw altogether from NATO. That would be a major disaster. Our forces, even combined with United States forces, are probably superior in quality but numerically they are inferior to the Warsaw pact countries. To what extent can the Warsaw pact countries fit nuclear battlefield weapons on to soft vehicles and tanks?
I regard chemical warfare and its effect on the efficiency of our forces as a very important issue. The efficiency of an army that has to fight wearing anti-chemical clothing is grossly impaired. It is stated on pages 19 and 21 that the number of countries that have chemical capabilities have increased from five in 1977 to 15. We have seen horrible pictures of the results of the mustard gas warfare in the far east. Let us hope that it will never be used in Europe.
Will the Minister tell the House how much advance notice there will be of the use of these weapons? When will the troops have to put on this very heavy and difficult equipment? Will they have advance notice of one hour, or two hours or more? Clothing of that nature must decrease efficiency.
A great deal of work has been done on the interchangeability of weapons and spare parts in wartime between our NATO allies. If, say, a tank lacks a piece of equipment, it is no use offering something that is measured

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in millimetres instead of inches, because it would be quite useless. Missiles and equipment must he interchangeable throughout NATO.
Paragraph 4.14 of the Defence Estimates states that we have 100,000 ground forces available for the defence of our homeland. Comparisons are invidious, but I am told that in Denmark 100,000 civilians are armed with rifles. They know the people who live in their villages, and if they saw strangers they would know how to react. If Denmark can arm 100,000 men with rifles, it makes the number of men who are armed in our country look rather small. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces said that the numbers are being increased. Paragraph 4.15 states that three out of the new infantry battalions are to be used for home defence. It is most important to defend one's own country and to ensure that people are properly trained to do that job. We do not want a private army; we want properly organised forces with modern equipment that can be used at very short notice. The age of people does not matter too much, provided that they are fit. What matters is that they should be trained and properly organised.
May I refer, as a purely domestic matter, to the rebuilding of one of the barracks in my constituency? Apart from Combermere barracks, which is the Household Cavalry barracks, Victoria barracks is being rebuilt. I am pleased that at last a start has been made upon its rebuilding. We were held up by a minor problem—the moving of a very old main sewer that ran under the barracks. For security reasons it had to be replaced.
Unfortunately, the contractors chose a steel sheet piling apparatus that annoyed the residents and did great damage in the locality. It caused a rift between the citizens and those who were rebuilding the barracks. Unfortunately, the structural engineers, Sir Alexander Gibbs, approved the contractors' methods. I contacted the person with ultimate responsibility, the chairman of the water board, Roy Watts, and within a short time the noise and inconvenience had stopped and another method was employed. I am told that this will not delay the final date of completion of the barracks. A battalion of footguards will then be installed once more in proper quarters.
Windsor will be all the richer for the presence of that battalion. It will be easier for it to mount guard every day. I understand that, apart from completion of the barracks, the delightful grass square is to be preserved. Those fine barracks will be worthy of the Household Division. It will be able to serve Windsor in comfortable quarters for a very long time. I hope that the Minister will support me, as have all previous Ministers, and ensure that there are no hitches and that the barracks are completed on time.
7.18 pm
Mr. John McWilliam: During the speech of the hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn) I was tempted to call out, "Ordure, ordure." I regret the problems that had to be faced in replacing the barracks and the relocation of the sewer and I am delighted to hear that they have been sorted out.
There are a number of points that I want to make, and I notice that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement is twitching because of the long printouts that I am holding. I promise him that most of them are sheets of blank paper. I cannot find any way of stopping
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my computer from printing out two lines on one page and then changing to the next sheet of paper to print out the next two lines. I promise the House that I do not intend to read it all out. I would never dream of abusing your authority, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by doing any such thing.
Defence is an important subject and I regret that the contributions to the debate relating to the general approach to strategy, doctrine and the equipment used by our forces are coming mainly from the Labour Benches. I do not understand how the Conservatives can complacently lean back and accept the NATO strategy of flexible response given the age of that strategy and given the fact that defence technology does not stand still. Moreover, the strategy of the Warsaw pact does not stand still. Yet, here we are, in 1987 arguing on the basis that, somehow or other, a strategy that is almost 20 years old is the correct strategy to defend Europe.
I can assure the House that that view is not shared by the people to whom I spoke to when I visited NATO headquarters shortly before Christmas. General Rogers certainly does not believe that there is a sufficiently strong conventional defence on the western plain of Europe.
Politics in the United States has certainly not stood still. As a result of the recent elections in the United States the leadership in the House of Representatives has changed and there are different people in charge of important committees. Senator Nunn has been outspoken in his view that the other countries in Europe ought to play their full part—a more significant role—in the conventional defence of Europe.
General Rogers considers that the Warsaw pact forces have a 6:1 superiority over NATO forces in Europe in numerical if not operational terms. We should address ourselves to that problem. It is not good enough for the Minister to stand up and say how well he did last year in increasing the numbers in the Territorial Army by a thousand. Does the Minister believe that he is addressing the main problem?
We are well aware that the standard military doctrine is that if one is in a defensive position it takes a 3:1 superiority to overcome that dug-in defensive position. That is the position that NATO has taken. The fact that the Warsaw pact has a numerical superiority of 6:1—effectively it is probably 4·5:1—means that NATO is not in a good position. We must find the additional conventional forces to commit to NATO.
We are not helped by the kneejerk reactions that we get from the Conservatives. We know that we have to cut our coat according to the cloth, and if that cloth is such that our primary role is within NATO—the Scotland/Iceland trench and the British Army of the Rhine—we accept that. But if there is a grandiose vision that the use of Trident D5 missiles overrides that role it is too complacent. It is not in the best interests of the defence of this nation.
I listen with surprise to some of the statements made by Caspar Weinberger. I do not know of any radar system in existence that can detect the difference between the Union flag and the Stars and Stripes on the nose of a Trident D5 missile. Mr. Weinberger seems to be gloriously unaware of that and the way in which we could drag America into a nuclear holocaust, against its will, because nobody in Moscow will worry too much about which flag is painted on that missile. If the missile is incoming, Russia will react.
The Labour party believes that we must spend money on the conventional defence of Europe. We need to

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increase our ability to fight a conventional war and we need to give a testimony of our commitment to that. I wonder at the complacency of the Ministry of Defence. An army cannot fight without ammunition.
I am privileged to have in my constituency the royal ordnance factory of Birtley and the work force of that factory is concerned because ammunition orders that were expected have not appeared. Unless those orders appear the pre-ordering of raw materials or specialist metals cannot take place. I am told that the factory has not received an order for 105FD ammunition—I do not know what they will fire out of the Abbott gun when they run out of the existing stock of shells. Without extra supplies of 105FDs no ammunition will be available for practice use and so on. We must have those orders.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) mentioned that, significantly, the Minister failed to make any mention of the SP70 weapon system—I find that very odd. Britain, Germany and Italy are, as far as we in this House are aware—we have had no statement to the contrary—committed to replacing the 105 Abbott gun with the 155 mm SP70. That weapon has several advantages, one of them being that it can fire the same ammunition as the 155 mm FH70 main battlefield howitzer. It would be a logical thing to rationalise ammunition.
We have heard nothing about it and I wonder why. Is it because the Germans have gone sour about the idea? Certainly there was some press speculation that the Germans were insisting on changes of specification and other things and that the background to those changes was not that they were needed but that the Germans were trying to delay the system being introduced. Is it that Rheinmetall is not capable of making the shells? I have no evidence to show that Rheinmetall has ever managed to deliver the FH70 ammunition that was ordered from it. I know that the Army needs about 50,000 rounds of FH70 ammunition for the coming year, but so far no order has been placed. No order has been placed at Birtley and as far as I am aware no order has gone to Germany. I look forward to the Minister's reply and I hope that he will be able to tell me whether the Germans have ever delivered any ammunition.
If the Army needs 50,000 rounds of FH70 ammunition, and if it asks Birtley to tender for that order, it will be met with a keen response. It will get a product that complies, in all ways, with the specifications, because Birtley has successfully made that ammunition for years. I hope that the Minister will go ahead and order that ammunition and he will also order 105FD ammunition that is needed for the Abbott gun.
Three years ago, when General Rogers gave evidence to the Senate Defence Committee, he said that one of the areas about which he was worried was the readiness of artillery in Europe. He said that gun crews had the opportunity to fire only one practice round per month. In my opinion that is a good way of ensuring that the artillery is inaccurate, if not downright dangerous to one's forward troops.
I hope that the Minister will give us the assurance that he will place the ammunition orders. I hope that he will assure the House that there are sufficient rounds to enable the proper practice that will enable the Royal Artillery to achieve the levels of accuracy for which it is famed.
I am also told that we are short of 76 mm shells as well. Where is the order for that? What is most puzzling is that
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the Minister did not mention the royal ordnance factories. We are aware that various companies have shown an interest in those factories and that such companies are trundling around the royal ordnance factories. We are aware of the ability of those factories to supply the Army with its needs—the Under-Secretary will recall that we went on about that at great length in the Committee on that particular Bill. The Labour party is concerned about the royal ordnance factories. We want the ammunition that the Army needs as well as the ability to produce it safely, at a reasonable price and to a standard that does not pose a hazard to the troops using it. We are not convinced that the Minister's proposals or what is apparently happening will give us that. I hope that the Minister will tell us tonight whether he intends to dispose of the royal ordnance factories before the next general election, and if so what he is doing about that. A statement would have been welcome.
Indeed, I would have applied for a debate under Standing Order No. 20 but for the fact that I knew that this debate would be held today and that my application would have been automatically refused as a result. However, that does not mean that the Minister does not need to say anything about the matter. It is important, and has been the subject of much press speculation during the past week. It is certainly of great concern to my constituents and to the constituents of every hon. Member with a royal ordnance factory in his area. I therefore hope that the Minister will answer that point tonight.
I fully support what the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli have said about the efficiency, effectiveness and professionalism of the British Army. We are proud of it and it is entiled to our support. However, that support should be given on the basis that I have outlined and should not be the subject of ministerial complacency.
7.31 pm
Mr. Derek Conway: It is a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam). During the Christmas period I visited his constituency and saw the excellent Metro-Centre there, But it is also a pleasure to follow him because of his remarks about the ammunition orders for Birtley. I spent a great deal of my youth in that town, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman's words will be well received by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State.
I particularly welcome what my right hon. Friend the Minister said about the Territorial Army, which is expanding well. Before too long we should examine the need to give NATO-committed Territorial Army infantry battalions an armoured personnel carrier capacity. Their susceptibility to air strikes is no less than that of a regular soldier. Moreover, it just so happens that the engines for those vehicles are almost certain to be made in my constituency. Thus I have a vested interest, but I look forward to the day when our Territorial Army battalions are armour plated.
The Labour party's emphasis on conventional defence will have to withstand a lot of scrutiny as the election approaches. Indeed, the International Institute for Strategic Studies, in its publication "The Military Balance", has shown that Warsaw pact tanks and tactical aircraft have a superiority over NATO of 2:1 and that Warsaw pact artillery has a superiority of 3:1. Consequently, it is not fair to claim that our forces are

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matched in any way. Moreover, many serving soldiers will want to know what response there could be to the deployment of battlefield chemical and biological weapons. If we cannot retaliate with nuclear weapons, our front-line troops will have no protection, and are no doubt well aware of that fact.
I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne) has attended the debate, because the new Sir John Moore barracks in Winchester was opened just before Christmas. It was moved from Shrewsbury, which was a matter of great regret to the people of that town. The barracks will be sadly missed. The new barracks forms a splendid training centre, and the people of Shropshire wish it and the people of Winchester well.
In Shropshire we now have a revamped Territorial Army battalion in the 5th Battalion The Light Infantry, in which I serve as a major. The new Yorkshire battalion, the 8th Battalion The Light Infantry, is wished well by the county. Indeed, the move towards county identities for Territorial Army battalions will help the civilian population to identify with them, as well as helping the units themselves.
Before Christmas, I was privileged to attend the annual general meeting of the Shropshire cadet force, as Member for Shrewsbury. Hon. Members have already praised our regular service personnel and many of the Territorial Army units, but a special word needs to be said about those people, particularly adults, who devote a great deal of time to our cadet forces. Their work is unpaid, but those adults give young people an outlet for their energies and often an opportunity to sample military training. Indeed, many of the cadets go into regular service with the armed forces. Such work is not only a gesture to the community but helps young people to decide whether a military career is for them.
As the economic climate improves, more and more potential and serving Territorial Army soldiers and officers will need the co-operation of employers. Perhaps the mammoth procurement power of the Ministry of Defence should be turned towards considering whether we need a voluntary employer's code on Territorial Army and reservist employee involvement. Such a code could be seen as a gesture of national responsibility from employers who already receive enormous Ministry of Defence contracts. As has often been said in Territorial Army discussions, some employers are far from encouraging when it comes to allowing people time off to attend annual camps. However, fortunately, the majority of employers are good, and encourage such activities.
The hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) made a very good speech and demonstrated that the armed forces need not be a political football to be kicked around between the different parties. People in the armed forces support parties of all political persuasions and it is only right that that should be recognised. The hon. Gentleman's point about DHSS contributions being a problem was very telling. For several years we have been promised that the problem would be resolved, but it has still not been resolved, and it is causing immense problems for those who are unemployed and who lose their benefit when they claim pay for a Territorial Army training day. There is inevitably a delay because of all the bureaucracy
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to ensure that money is paid correctly. However, I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has taken that point on board.
In previous debates I mentioned the possibility of national service in the Territorial Army along Swiss lines. But, as happens whenever national service is suggested, that idea was pooh-poohed rapidly by both friend and foe alike. The falling birth rate will clarify the personnel position towards the end of this century, but in the next 10 years there is likely to be a 25 per cent. drop in the number of young men of military age. Moreover, I understand that there will be 1 million fewer men aged between 20 and 29 at the turn of the century. That is bound to have an effect on normal recruiting patterns. A switch to a conventional defence only policy, as advocated by the Opposition, will almost inevitably mean that the required levels of manpower can be achieved only by compulsory military service. I look forward to that debate being held at a future Labour party conference.
I crave the indulgence of the House, because I rarely like to speak for more than 10 minutes but on this occasion wish to do so. I must ask my right hon. and hon. Friends who are waiting to speak to be patient. Just before Christmas a company in my constituency was attacked in a debate on 12 December on defence projects and exports. Sadly, none of those hon. Members who criticised that company had the courtesy to advise me that they were about to do so. However, before today's debate I took the liberty of writing to the hon. Members for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) and for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour) advising them that I intended to raise the subject of the DROPS contract. I refer to column 712 of the Official Report for 12 December 1986 and to early-day motion 342, which also contains the name of the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright).
In that debate, the hon. Member for Yeovil made several specific allegations, some of which were echoed by the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North. From the company's point of view at least, it is important that the record should be made clear. He made a number of allegations especially to my hon. Friend the Minister that the Minister of Defence was allowing
"an unwitting export…to the Soviet Union."
Yet the Multilift hooklift mark IV system, which is the point of the controversy, will specifically not be offered to any Eastern bloc country. That has never been proposed and such a thing has never been substantiated. Even if Multilift wished to export that system—clearly it does not—it would be subject to stringent export licensing control from the Ministry of Defence and from the Department of Trade and Industry. Accusations along that line were wholly without basis.
Secondly, it was claimed that the Multilift system "bears a startling resemblance to the system proposed by Boughton."
The hon. Member for Yeovil said:
"There may have been some leakage of technical information from Boughton."—[Official Report, 12 December 1986; Vol. 107, c. 712.]
That suggests that there has been a bit of jiggery-pokery behind the scenes, yet no claims have ever been made against Multilift in my constituency. Multilift retained top London patent lawyers to ensure that there was no infringement of anyone's patent. Boughton has been

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repeatedly urged by the Ministry of Defence to enter discussions on allegations of breach of intellectual property. That has not been done at any stage. Therefore, it is not on for the hon. Members for Yeovil and for Woolwich, who added his name to the early-day motion, to continue to make those accusations without substantiating them.
The hon. Member for Yeovil suggested that Multilift was a supplier to the Soviet truck company, Kamaz. Multilift has never supplied hydraulic systems to Kamaz and its parent group Partek AB, which is based in Finland, has never engaged in any work for an Eastern bloc military organisation. Multilift staff have told me that categorically. If any hon. Member has evidence to the contrary, he is duty hound to produce it and to give my hon. Friends at the Ministry an opportunity to examine the case.
The hon. Member for Yeovil claimed that it was evident that the contractor chosen by the Ministry of Defence supplied similar systems to the Soviet Union, probably to the Soviet army. That accusation had no basis of truth whatever and I challenge him to substantiate it.
The question remains whether the Ministry of Defence should have chosen a Finnish-owned company to be involved in the tender process for the DROPS—ammunition lift—project. Partek AB was formed in 1898. It is a public company in Finland with 13,000 shareholders, 38 per cent. of whom are private individuals. It could not be argued with the best Machiavellian mind in the world that it is a Soviet front organisation trying to inveigle its way into the Ministry of Defence supply organisation. It is a long-standing, highly reputable, substantially privately owned company. Its activities are in minerals and concrete production, building and insulation materials and hydraulic mounted equipment. Less than 5 per cent. of its Finnish turnover is with Eastern bloc countries, supplying them with hydraulics for refuse collection vehicles. Its hydraulic and commercial systems were developed were in the 1960s. If the basis of the argument is that we should not be involved in that, we might as well prevent British Gas from supplying gas to Army barracks in Britain because it is involved in a pipeline with the Soviet Union. The suggestion that normal commerical contracts should not go on with the Soviet Union has never been proposed by any party in this House.
Multilift, the company in my constituency which is part of the Finnish group, was formed in 1968. It has 160 employees with a turnover of £12 million. It makes not only the military equipment which is being offered to the Ministry of Defence but also refuse collection vehicles—in which it has a 30 per cent. market share—and demountables. It has more than a 50 per cent. share of the United Kingdom market whereas Boughton, whose supporters have been so highly critical of the Multilift contract, has less than 20 per cent. of the United Kingdom commercial market.
That must be seen by the House against the criticism that Multilift has come out of nowhere to grab a contract to which it has no right—or so the opponents of Multilift and the supporters of Boughton will have it. For Multilift, DROPS is a 100 per cent. United Kingdom procurement and manufacturing project. Fortunately, it brings 50 extra jobs to Shrewsbury and I cannot for the life of me understand why the Liberal party has opposed
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it so vehemently without ever checking with the Multilift management or myself to see whether their repeated allegations have any base whatever.
Multilift is an excellent company with a good management team whom I meet regularly. Its members are dynamic and have integrity. To suggest that they would have any part in supplying the Soviet army with equipment is plainly ridiculous.
Sadly, the controversy on the DROPS project will not go away. There has been a "Panorama" programme on it and countless questions on the Order Paper from my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour), myself and other hon. Members. A paragraph or two about the basis of the DROPS report may help lay this particular ghost to rest.
Eleven years ago, in 1975, Multilift supplied to the Ministry of Defence a special demountable for handling 20 ft long flat-racks. It was put on trial in the United Kingdom and Germany and proved to be all right on highway work but was not suited to cross-country conditions. Between 1976 and 1978 the Ministry of Defence examined the products of all appropriate United Kingdom demountable equipment manufacturers and a wide range of equipment was tested. In 1978 the Ministry of Defence purchased four commercial demountables from Boughton and they were fitted to in-service Foden trucks. That was to help assess the requirement for the Army. At that stage it was a feasibility study and it may well have been rejected.
From 1978–82, tests indicated that DROPS offered productivity savings, and a requirement was formulated and later that year the Ministry of Defence issued a statement of requirement to 43 companies, giving them 20 weeks for a response.
In 1983, Multilift was picked for trialling along with Powell Duffryn in second place. Heathfield Engineering got third place, using a Multilift lifting system, and Volvo got fourth place, again with Multilift kit. Boughton, the subject of all the controversy, got fifth place. Foden and Scammell were chosen by the Ministry of Defence as the two main chassis contractors.
In 1985, after a year's trialling, the Multilift system was chosen and in 1986 Foden and Scammell were confirmed as the main chassis contractors. Boughton's case has been given substantial airing on television and in the Chamber, both in debate and via questions. In 1978, Boughton was in a favoured position, having supplied the equipment for the feasibility study. Obviously, seeing a major recuirement developing, Boughton adopted a strategy which, sadly for the company, turned out to be wrong. The company went for a new "vehicle system" incorporating many new and radical ideas which were subsequently not accepted. It expected the Ministry of Defence's DROPS specification to be written around its vehicle ideas which, again, sadly did not happen.
Boughton designed a new load handling system that could be used only with its own vehicle. That, again, turned out not to be the case. Having taken so many false premises along that product development. Boughton surely has no right to expect a favoured position. Its commercial equipment was purchased for concept trials by the Government and the Ministry of Defence eventually left the solution of the loading to manufacturer response, who, of course, had given performance parameters to work to.

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My hon. Friend the Minister and the noble Lord Trefgarne have examined this case again and again. There is no evidence of foul play, and the Auditor-General will report to Parliament on the DROPS project in due course. No doubt the matter will be aired again then. My hon. Friend the Minister and his Department should now consider that Boughton is one of two finalists for a new 4 x 4 vehicle. I hope that it will not be given the contract simply to keep it quiet or happy and to calm friends in high places.
Boughton lost the DROPS contract to Shrewsbury in an open and fair competition. I say to its supporters, especially those in the Liberal party, that it is now time to put up or shut up.
7.48 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell: I thank the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Conway) for recognising that people in the armed forces vote for all parties and that the armed forces are not the preserve of one particular party. Thirty-five years ago I was in a tank crew as a national service man on the north German plain, like many others of my age group. Therefore, I remain especially sensitive to people who say that the British Army of the Rhine is vulnerable to some sort of threat. I refer to the exchange between my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and the Minister on the subject of a short-range Soviet nuclear capability against 1 Corps.
What consideration has been given to the assessment that may have been made in Moscow after Chernobyl of what would happen to Mother Russia herself if a nuclear holocaust or nuclear attack were to be launched against western Europe? We have had enough trouble with caesium 137 in the Outer Hebrides and the mountains of Wales. Given a prevailing south-west wind, is there a cow, a calf, a sheep or a lamb anywhere between Minsk and Leningrad that could graze safely? There is not. Three days after Russia used nuclear weapons in western Europe there would be considerable trouble in the Russian homeland. That, rather than the British possession of nuclear weapons, is the safeguard against the vulnerability argument with which the Minister tried to persuade my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli.
What assessment has been made, in the light both of what we know has happened since Chernobyl and the agricultural difficulties that we have faced, of a Russian attack anywhere in western Europe on Russia herself?
Secondly, I should like to say a word about procurement. Today the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement answered the question:
"if he will hold discussions with Plessey about the eventual control of high-technology development as a result of its £1,100 million agreement with Boeing; and whether it will pass to American control."
He answered, "I shall answer shortly." I make no complaint about the answer. All I ask for is a considered reply. This is a difficult subject and it is better that it should be considered rather than answered within three days.
In the same breath I draw to the Minister's attention the problem of Electronic Data Systems, on which I have tabled questions and about which David Rose of The Guardian has written. I refer to a memorandum from EDS
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in the name of Lana Lewallen dated 10 May 1985. It is addressed to staff coming to Britain from the United States to work on electronic data systems. I have given copies of it to the Treasury and in a letter to Ministers at the Home Office. It states:
"For TDYs, the answers to these questions are crucial because you can be denied entry into the country with the wrong answers. Since you are on temporary assignment here, you are only CONSULTING during your stay here. According to British Immigration Authorities, that is not 'business'. Therefore, do not reply 'business' or 'work' because you are NOT, according to their definition. An acceptable answer to the first question is 'pleasure'. It is acceptable, if you wish, to add that you may consult a bit for the London branch of your American employer. You may mention EDS, but do not mention BUPA. The best advice however is not to offer any information other than what you are specifically asked.
If you have family who are coming over with you or who will join you later, they should NEVER say they are coming to visit or stay with their spouse/parent who is working in London.
In answering the question 'how long will you be in the UK?', remember that you will probably leave the UK several times for trips abroad during your stay. Therefore, do NOT answer six months or four months because that is incorrect. Rather, you can state 'about four weeks at present' because that will be more factual.
When you do leave and re-enter the UK, please follow these same instructions. It is important that you know and adhere to these instructions upon entry. It is your responsibility to get yourself into the country; EDS cannot exempt anyone from passport control."
The memorandum states:
"You will also be queried as to 'the nature of your visit to the United Kingdom: business or pleasure?' and 'how long do you plan to be in the UK?"
That raises questions about the possible deception of immigration authorities. My understanding is that the Home Office is looking into this whole matter. Does the Ministry of Defence want to award contracts, which may have a greater value than those for AWACs, to a company which behaves in that way towards British immigration control, rather than to Plessey, Racal or some other British company? As I say in my letter to the Minister of State, Treasury, who is co-ordinating the committee:
"What concerns me infinitely more is whether EDS, operating in such a way, is the type of company who should be given preference by the British taxpayer over Racal, Plessey or British Telecom. Not only do vast sums of money appear to be at stake, but a lot of high-tech research is clearly involved. If EDS were to get the contract, would that R and D at advanced level be done in the UK? I think the answer is no."
On 7 January David Rose wrote in The Guardian:
"The first check to EDS's plans for government contracts came in December, when the £10 million Passport Office computer was awarded to a British rival.
This followed the Guardian's disclosure that the firm had urged American staff to lie to immigration officials in order to work in Britain illegally, the admission by Mr. Ross Perot, the former EDS chairman, that he paid £2 million into a Swiss bank account as ransom for American hostages in the Middle East: he had been asked to do so by the disgraced Lt-Col Oliver North, the central figure in the Irangate scandal.
The loss of the contract came as a shock to EDS staff."
What is the position of the Ministry of Defence in relation to EDS?
I interrupted the Minister's opening speech to ask about the talks in Washington about the Falklands. It may be primarily a Foreign Office responsibility, but it is not sufficient for a Defence Minister simply to say that that does not concern the British Ministry of Defence. Certainly it does. Therefore, I look forward to some reconsideration of that in the Minister's reply.

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Following my surgery on Saturday I wrote to the Secretary of State for Defence. Two constituents came to see me and were absolutely furious about what had happened to the Queen's Own Highlanders in Kenya, with which a relative of theirs is serving. I have put the matter in writing to the Secretary of State, but I might not have raised the matter had it not been for today's news. The high commission in Kenya has said that it greatly regrets that any instructions were given to service men not to go to Mombasa and the coast. Apparently the doctor attached to the forces is saying that he hopes that no more British service men will take leave on the coast. Which is right—the high commission or the forces?
The second part of the question arises from what my constituents told me. They said that their relative had told them—I do not know the accuracy of this—that the warning about AIDS on the coast had been given in a frivolous, ribald manner. I remember easily what happened in my national service days. The inimitable regimental sergeant-major, the late Frank Dodd, of the Royal Scots Greys used to say, "Be careful, lads. Remember your French letters when you leave the guardroom. Ho! ho!" That is how it was put. My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers), who has great Army experience, knows exactly what I am talking about. Precisely what instructions were given and what warning was brought home to those men before they went on leave on the Kenyan coast? What is the Government's position as between our own high commission and the advice that is attributed to the Army doctor?
I should like now to discuss Army responsibilities and military intelligence as this is one of the few opportunities that hon. Members get to address such matters. I had the first question to the Prime Minister today and asked her whether she would place in the Library a copy of all correspondence conducted on her behalf between Sir Robert Armstrong and Mr. Chapman Pincher. The right hon. Lady replied:
It remains inappropriate to comment on matters in issue in the Peter Wright case in Australia. I also intend to follow the precedent set by previous Governments of not commenting on security matters."
This is not the occasion to go into the merits of the Australian court case, and I shall not do so. However, I refer to the leader in The Scotsman on 16 December 1986, which stated:
"Tam Dalyell has a fair point when he asks, 'Is there any effective ministerial control over breaking into houses? Which Minister is responsible for any rules on breaking in?'".
I am referring to ministerial authorisation because, quite frankly, Mr. Chapman Pincher has told me on the telephone—I know him of old and believe him on this—that he did not collude in giving "Their Trade Is Treachery" in December 1980 to the Government agency involved. Therefore, it was either done from inside Sidgwick and Jackson or it was done by theft and housebreaking. Following my question to the Prime Minister, I should like to ask whether theft or housebreaking was involved and whether there was ministerial authorisation for burglary. We are concerned about ministerial control over state burglary.
I should like to know also how it came about that MI5 was apparently talking to Sir Robert Armstrong without the Attorney-General being consulted. An Army debate is the only time that one can raise such issues. Some of us might say that if the Attorney-General was not consulted
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that was because the Government did not want the Attorney-General to be in the position of having to ask awkward questions.
Precisely what is the ministerial control over military intelligence? What can Peter Wright have meant by saying that he took part in operations that were "deniable, authorised and illegal"?
That brings me to the activites of the Wilson years. You and I, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and several other hon. Members lived through those years and we can be forgiven for being extremely curious about what happened, because many strange things happened then.
The first time that I became interested in such matters was almost 20 years ago, when my friend—the friend of many hon. Members—the then Member of Parliament for Ealing, Acton, Mr. Bernard Floud, tragically took his own life. We wondered at the time what exactly had happened because it was public knowledge that the then Prime Minister, Mr. Harold Wilson, had understandably offered Bernard Floud junior ministerial office. That offer was withdrawn when an MI5 report—this was public knowledge at the time—suggested to the Prime Minister and to the Cabinet office that Bernard Floud was not a proper person to hold ministerial office. Some hon. Members will recollect that Bernard Floud took his own life in a gas-filled room.
I have talked about that to my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) and we should like to ask the Government, since we now know that Bernard Floud's MI5 monitoring officer went by the name of Peter Wright, whether there is not a case, even 20 years later, for Ministers calling for the Government agency security file on the Bernard Floud case, and making some sort of assessment. I am not asking to be shown that file but could not my right hon. Friend, a former Home Secretary, and a Privy Councillor, be shown it? If he says that everything is all right, that would satisfy me. Alternatively, the Government might think that it was the kind of thing that could be shown to the Leader of the Opposition.
Bernard Floud was a friend of some of us, and in the light of what we now know about Peter Wright being his monitoring officer and about what Peter Wright has said in the Australian court about burgling his way through London, we should like to know the agony that our friend the then Member of Parliament for Ealing, Acton was put through.
I refer to The Times of 10 December 1986, which asks, "What is a deniable operation?" Mr. Wright is quoted as saying:
"I have taken part in tens, possibly hundreds, of illegal operations, for which I might have been sent to prison, if detected."
Were those operations secretly authorised on the condition that they could be publicly disowned? Some of us would like to know the answer to that question. It could be said that that is raking up the past for the sake of raking up the past, but I reply to that in terms of the judgment in an Australian court six years ago of Mr. Justice Mason, who said:
"It is unacceptable that in our democratic society there should be a restraint on the publication of the information relating to a Government where the only vice of that information is that it enables the public to discuss, review, and criticise government action."

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In justifying myself for going back two decades, I refer to the noble Lord Dacre of Glanton, Professor Hugh Trevor-Roper, who, although a political opponent, did me the courtesy of writing a foreword to a book that I wrote. We are personal friends. He said that a country,
"as the price of protecting its present, it should yield up the records of its past."
Those are not the words of a Labour politician. They are the words not so much of the Conservative party as of the intellectual Right wing of British society.
Finally, I should like to give a short explanation. It is true that after much thought and discussion with colleagues, and with the agreement of the Leader of the Opposition, I have referred the case of the forged bank account of Lord Glenamara to the Security Commission. I thought that that was the proper way to do it and, quite frankly, that that would be more likely to get a serious reply than if I had sent it to Ministers.
The background is that Lord Glenamara—your friend and mine, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when he was known as Mr. Ted Short, our Chief Whip—asked me to look into the whole background of how he got into difficulties with a Swiss bank account which turned out to be forged.
I am asking present Ministers—regardless of how Lord Griffiths, Lord Justice Lloyd, Philip Allen, Sir Alan Cockerell, Sir Hugh Beech, Sir Alisdair Steedman and Sir Michael Palliser decided to act—to take some responsibility in looking up the files of those days and asking direct questions of the security services. I do not know whether the Security Commission, converting itself as it is entitled to do after asking Parliament's permission into a tribunal, is the best way to go about it. However, I am jolly sure that some of us are not going to let the Ted Short affair rest until such time as we have had an explanation. I use this Army debate with its connections with military intelligence to say that explanations are due from two decades and less ago.
8.9 pm
Mr. John Browne: It was a great pleasure and extremely interesting to listen to the speech of the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett). It takes a lot of courage to make such a speech from the Labour Benches and I believe that what he said reflects much more accurately than his Front Bench colleagues the real grassroots feeling of the Labour voter throughout the country. If I have my geography right, I believe that his constituency is included in the old recruiting area of the Northumberland Fusiliers.
My hon. Friend the Minister who is to wind up the debate is a Coldstreamer and I believe that Grenadiers and even Life Guards argue about which is the oldest regiment of the British Army. However, I believe that the Northumberland Fusiliers have the oldest battle honour in the British Army and contributed more battalions in the first world war than any other regiment. I wish that that same fighting spirit would grasp the Opposition Front Bench spokesmen.
I listened horrified to the opening speech of the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies). It seemed that 1,000 years of our history and the painful lessons that we should have learnt about military preparedness have been completely, almost wilfully, forgotten. If there is one overriding lesson that those 1,000 years have taught us it
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is that we must be prepared and we must show our potential enemies that we are prepared. We are attacked whenever we show that we are weak or when we show a lack of determination to defend not only our country but our areas of vital interest. The Romans had a classic saying that if one wants peace one should prepare for war.
We have learned that, expensive as it is to prevent war by means of deterrence, the fact is that to fight a war is infinitely more expensive in terms of money and blood. Therefore, we must have that deterrence. We must be prepared to spend money on deterrence or on that insurance. It is the duty of Governments of any political persuasion in Britain to ensure that our nation is prepared and to ensure that we demonstrate a positive attitude towards defence, encourage our electorate to spend the necessary money on defence and ensure that the military force in this country is not only skilled but is equipped with modern and integrated weapon systems.
I believe that showing an attitude of determination to our defence is necessary for the home base, our NATO role and out of area. Switzerland is a classic example of a country that shows an active and positive determination to defend itself. It uses reserve forces and ensures that the military force is integrated with civil defence. I believe that we still have a lot to learn in that respect. I know that the Government have done much in that area in the past seven and a half years, but there is still more to be done.
Britain's contribution to NATO in terms of manpower and hardware and our attitude to NATO are crucial to morale within NATO. It certainly is when it comes to the support of the United States for NATO. As the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright) said, quite correctly, the American people are getting a little impatient about the attitude of Europe towards its own defence. I believe that the Anglo-American relationship is probably the greatest force for peace in the world and is a key aspect underlying NATO. Therefore, our attitude towards NATO is critical to morale and effectiveness. The relationships within NATO are built upon mutual respect and required mutual effort.
I shall now deal with the out-of-area determination. I was pleased to hear of the exercise in Oman. Since 1980 I have said that we should look at the areas of vital interest to NATO and we should show a willingness and ability to look out of area and react. I believe that in the Falklands some of the advice given to Galtieri by his Foreign Minister, Costa Mendez, was based on the fact that Britain was locked into its NATO role, was over-stretched and would not have the physical ability to re-take the Falklands and that it had a lack of determination. Britain had retreated from east of Suez and the Mediterranean and it was felt that it would not be able to gird itself to play any defensive role in the Falklands. I believe that our willingness to liberate the Falklands was important on a global scale in showing an attitude towards out-of-area threat and our preparedness to deal with it.
Obviously, we do not just want peace at any price. We want peace with freedom. That costs big money. I know that the year ahead will bring some tough spending decisions and I wish my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Ministry of Defence good luck in their future battles on that front because there will be some tough decisions and I shall fully support what I would consider adequate spending on defence as I think that it is a vital insurance policy for our nation.

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I now wish to deal with the skill of the military force and equipping it with modern integrated weapons systems. I believe that if we are to be able to afford and continue possessing updated and therefore modern and effective weapons systems, we have to make more efficient use of manpower. Obviously, I entirely support the philosophy of having a small, elite, highly trained professional basic army, but we must not misuse it. I believe that there is a danger that overstretch is starting to eat into recruitment and cause early retirement in the professional armed forces. That overstretch is very dangerous because we are losing top quality people at non-commissioned officer and officer level. It is something that the Government must look at as a matter of great concern.
The hon. Member for Woolwich mentioned the interesting change in demography and the future recruiting for the Armed Forces, not only in the professional Armed Forces, especially the Army, but for the reserves and the Territorial Army. I believe that the efficient use of manpower within the professional Army must increasingly lead us towards a greater integration with an enhanced Territorial Army. I know that the Government have done much to enhance the Territorial Army, not only in its numbers but in its quality, equipment and general efficiency. Serving in the Territorial Army I see that, and it is extremely gratifying. However, more has yet to be done as it has to be done within the reserves, the Home Service Force and civil defence. The Government are moving in the right direction and have done a lot, despite resistance from certain parts of the House. However, much more needs to be done in that area.
I should like to mention the academic training of officers at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. I understand that the academic content of the course has been diluted until it is almost non-existent. One can ask particularly where money is important, why one should bother to give academic instruction when many potential officers will have been to university in the first place. But one must consider that some of those officers will not have gone to university. It is important, even if the officers are streamed at Sandhurst, that more emphasis is given to academic instruction.
The nuclear weapon has been invented; we cannot disinvent it. It exists. The argument about nuclear-free zones was dispelled by the situation in Japan in 1945 and by the recent disaster at Chernobyl, which showed that there are no such things as effective nuclear-free zones. As an existing weapon system, as long as they are efficient in their military use, nuclear weapons form part of an integrated, modern defence system. It is an absolute outrage to try to tell the British people that a non-nuclear defence policy for our nation is credible. The Socialist party's non-nuclear defence policy is hypocritical, impractical and misleading. Further, it is treacherous, and I believe that it knows that.
The right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), was a very good Secretary of State for Defence, when one looks back at those years a few decades ago. He knows, despite the policy of the present Labour party, what the real defence issues are. It was interesting, at the time of the Socialist party conference in September 1986, to see him under the glare of the television lights. We saw him desperately searching for a peg upon which to hang both faces at one time—the face of non-nuclear defence, and
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the face for which he knows perfectly well that, when it comes to the reality of government in this country, there is no alternative.
The nuclear weapons system is part of an integrated weapons system for this country, and is the essence of our defence policy and the essence of rendering it credible on a strategic scale. The non-nuclear defence policy proposed by the Socialist party is extremely dangerous. It is hypocritical and misleading to the British public. It is treacherous to say that it is credible and that we shall still have a defence system if we put the money—even if that were to be true—into another area, such as conventional defence. In expressing my support for the Government, may I say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friends on the Front Bench have done an excellent job. As I see it, from a worm's eye view in the Territorial Army, we must try to make the armed forces increasingly efficient, keep modern integrated weapons systems at their disposal, change the emphasis of manpower and use the reserves. The Government have shown great skill and a great feeling for defence, plus a feeling for prudent spending. The Government have struck a great balance and I praise my hon. Friend and his fellow Ministers for what they have done and offer them my strong support in fighting for prudent defence budgets in the future.
8.24 pm
Mr. Allan Rogers: I am very sad to have to follow that contribution from the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne). I do not think that I have ever heard a more arrogant and condescending speech since I have been in the House. The way that he patted my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garret) on the head for believing—as many Labour Members do—that there might be some use for the Territorial Army was extremely condescending. To say that my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend had courage to speak out like that because he was speaking for the Labour Benches was an insult to those of us who have served in the armed forces, not the Territorial Army.
Mr. John Browne: I served for 10 years.
Mr. Rogers: It was an insult to many of the working class, especially those in my constituency, who gave their lives in defence of this country. Unlike many from the hon. Member's class, they did not go into the secret service and act as spies for the Russians. The hon. Gentleman insults Labour Members by making such a speech.
Mr. Browne: Nonsense.
Mr. Rogers: I shall put my anger aside and get on with my contribution, and put the arrogance of the hon. Member for Winchester down to where he comes from. It shows how the Conservative party attempts to twist the position of Labour Members. We hope that over the coming months we shall be able properly to present our defence policy. In order to do so, we need some answers from Ministers.
In his opening statement today, and in last year's debate on the Army, my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) commented on the balance of spending within the armed forces and within the Army itself. He has posed many questions of detail, as well as the major issue of total funding with and without Trident spending. The Government have still not answered those

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crucial questions. The question that faces us in consideration of our defence budget is how we can maintain and develop our conventional forces and carry the enormous burden of funding a nuclear potential such as Trident. How far are we prepared to put our armed services into indefensible conventional positions so that we can fund weapons that will, supposedly, be their saviour against alleged overwhelming conventional Soviet forces? That is the crux of the matter when determining our defence priorities.
The Government have chosen what we on the Opposition Benches consider to be an untenable policy. We are committed to developing our conventional forces to a point where they will not need to be bailed out by nuclear weapons—nuclear weapons that will almost certainly destroy the defenders as well as the aggressors.
Earlier, my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli was challenged on the SP70. As a battlefield weapon it will be relatively useless, because it has a range of something like 19 km. As my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) said, it will create havoc on both sides, besides the ultimate problem that will arise for the civilian population.
The hon. Member for Winchester is smiling. He may find that humorous, but we do not. Because we are denying our forces the conventional weapons to enable them to fight in the first-strike conventional Russian attack, we shall be placing them in jeopardy. There is no recovery from that position. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli said, when we start playing that game the stakes must then proceed to the ultimate.
We must prove the validity of our position to the British electorate over the next few months. In order to do that, we must look at the balance of conventional forces to see whether they can be funded and sustained, and what more is required to effect a balance. Therefore, we must look at the relative strengths of NATO and the Warsaw pact countries as they face the potential battlefield of Europe.
It is commonly assumed—indeed it is often asserted, as we have heard today—that the Warsaw pact has an overwhelming superiority in conventional forces in Europe. That assumption and those assertions are usually supported by unqualified numerical comparisons, such as the numbers of tanks or artillery pieces on both sides. However, if we look at the quantitative potential of both sides, a different picture will emerge of actual military capability. The evidence suggests that the assumption of a vast Warsaw pact conventional force superiority is superficial and misleading.
Every year, in the Statement on the Defence Estimates, the Government publish an assessment of the balance of conventional forces. That is known as a "bean count" approach because it is a straightforward counting of the forces and comparison with opposing systems.
However, as I have said, if one looks at the potential qualitatively, the straight number counts do not necessarily translate into an immediate picture of likely military effectiveness of the armed forces. While such comparisons are obviously useful for a quick examination of a problem, it can be argued that on issues as important as the defence of the West, more complex examinations are valid. The Government recognise that. We see on pages 58 and 59 of annex A of this year's Defence Estimates that
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they attempted to calculate the conventional balance. But, at the end, their view was that that was not possible; it was too complicated.
However, the Americans have had such a system since 1971. The United States defence department uses a more detailed assessment which overcomes many of the problems of a straight-count approach. The system of armoured division equivalents weighs the mobility, survivability and firepower of every weapon in every division on the central front. Although the exact numbers of ADEs on each side are classified, the ratio is not. To support our argument the figure that should be considered, rather than straight count of men, tanks or artillery pieces, is the ratio between the two forces after a qualitative assessment, and, of course, the difference is not very much.
Such an assessment leads us to the conclusion that the Warsaw pact forces cannot achieve immediate superiority in any conventional attack upon the West. Therefore, we argue that a more detailed and comprehensive assessment of the Soviet conventional threat to Western Europe would show that the balance of forces is nothing like as adverse for NATO as has been traditionally represented. From that, it is clear that the West is in a far better position to respond positively to nuclear arms control initiatives which would not mean a renunciation of security, as alleged by Conservative Members.
Labour Members maintain that the Government's defence position is untenable and misleading. The Government's assumption of the Soviet Union's advantage in the conventional force level, which constitutes a threat which is economically impossible for us to match, obviously leads them to a reliance on nuclear forces for the defence of the West. That assumption is not only open to criticism; it is wrong.
The Government's position is contradictory. On the one hand, they clamour for nuclear weapons on the basis that they are needed to counterbalance what they assert are overwhelming Soviet conventional forces. On the other hand, the Government's policy of spending more money on nuclear weaponry prevents any possibility of correcting that asserted imbalance. The Government are falling between two stools and are in danger of failing to maintain a strategic or even operational effectiveness in either area.
The Labour party's position is simple and straightforward. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli said in last year's debate, by cancelling Trident we can maintain present levels of conventional defence spending. By doing that, we can fulfil our commitments to our allies and to NATO. But above all, we can fulfil our commitments to our own service men and women in the armed forces.
8.35 pm
Mr. Neville Trotter: I apologise for missing the opening speeches from the Front Benches, but my train from Newcastle was five and a half hours late.
Mr. Frank Cook: Were not they running yesterday?
Mr. Trotter: I had constituency engagements yesterday.
The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam) referred to his meeting recently with General Bernie Rogers, supreme allied commander Europe. What a pity he did not tell us General Rogers's views on the one-sided

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nuclear disarmament proposals of the Labour party. I find it hard to believe that that subject did not come up in that discussion.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the conventional odds against the Army in Germany being 4½:1 against an acceptable 3:1. If one works out the arithmetic, that would seem to show he is suggesting a need for a 50 per cent. increase in the Army capability in Germany. Apart from the enormous cost that that would involve, it would certainly require conscription. And, however strong the conventional forces in Germany may be, they are powerless if against them is ranged an opponent who has nuclear weapons when we have not.
I want to comment on the organisation of the Army at home and overseas. I shall talk mostly about our commitment to NATO, because in recent times most of the Army is so committed. There remains a worldwide involvement which has been referred to by other hon. Members. The recent exercise of 5 Airborne Brigade in Oman was a great success and an example of how we can respond to a crisis that might emerge thousands of miles away.
My comment tonight on out-of-theatre forces would best be concentrated on the Falkland Islands as I was fortunate enough to be one of those hon. Members who visited the garrison there a few months ago. All the members of that party were most impressed by the long hours put in by the soldiers there. The schedule of work was six days a week, 12 hours a day—72 hours a week—a working week that reminded me of that in a Korean shipyard. Despite those long hours, morale was high. It would be wrong not to tell the House that everybody was looking forward to the time when their four months tour came to an end, but in the meantime they got on with a worthwhile job, working long hours effectively and with a high morale.
Mr. David Young: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that nuclear weapons would not have been any use in a place such as the Falklands, and, had the Argentines waited for the Government to dispose of the carriers, they would not have been able to get the Army there in the first place because 8,000 miles is a long way to swim even for a highly trained soldier?
Mr. Trotter: There was never any question of getting rid of the carriers. No such suggestion was ever put before the House, so the hon. Gentleman's point does not arise. However, if the Argentines had developed a nuclear weapon, that could conceivably have affected the position. Certainly in the campaign that was fought, nuclear weapons played no part.
We should consider the time being spent in the Falklands by some personnel in specialist units. They are in danger of being sent there too often. That applies in particular to those involved in the port units, where the problem is that the only other port of any size that the Army mans is in Southampton water, so the men are rotated to the south much more frequently than other soldiers are. The matter should be examined.
When the new barracks are fully occupied, as they will be shortly, we shall also have to examine how best the soldiers can remain in contact with the civilian population. We were impressed on our visit by the excellent relationship between the Falkland islanders and the garrison. I am sure that hon. Members do not wish the
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withdrawal of the men from their present involvement in the settlements and in Port Stanley to lead to a lack of contact. I am sure that attention will be given to this matter.
I wish next to refer to the northern flank of NATO. Of course, the main part of the Army is committed to the central front in Germany but we have an important role in the north. Although the role of the Marine Brigade in Norway is well known, we are also committed to send a brigade to Denmark in an emergency. If one includes the logistic support unit, it is the largest brigade in the Army. It has 10,000 regulars and 5,000 territorials, a total of 15,000 men. Indeed, it is almost a misnaming of the force to call it a brigade. By most standards, it is of divisional strength. It includes not just infantry, armour with Chieftain tanks, gunners and engineers, as one might expect, but ports units, workshops and hospitals. It is very much a self-contained force. It is very important to the defence of the Baltic approaches. It is the major reinforcement available to the area within a few days in the event of an emergency. I am sure that in this commitment we are making a very important contribution to NATO. The Baltic approaches are a vital area that we must not overlook.
We cannot consider the organisation of the Army in Germany without referring to the role of the TA. On mobilisation, apart from their contribution to the front line, the TA provides many of the vital logistics units in the Rhine Army. The change in the disposition of 1 Corps, as a result of the efforts of General Sir Nigel Bagnall, when, first, he was the corps commander and then the commander of the Rhine Army, has led to a great improvement in the way in which we utilise our forces in Germany. One of our divisions is now in reserve and another division comes out from the United Kingdom to protect the rear areas. The present commander in Germany, Sir Martin Farndale, has gone on record as saying:
"Our plan to defend our rear areas is far better than that of other allies. We are obtaining a maximum use of resources."
All credit is due to the senior officers in Germany, who have thought out and implemented this important reorganisation which has led to a far better defence than before and a far better use of the men, money and materials available.
Hon. Members will know that we have recently experimented with 6 Brigade in the air mobile role. It has been a successful experiment and much has been learnt. With the welcome decision to increase the armoured strength in Germany, with the creation of an additional tank regiment, 6 Brigade will return to its armoured role. It will thus no longer be available as an air mobile brigade. I am sure that the House will understand the advantage of the air mobile brigade. It is light, quick to move, not restricted to roads, and able to act as a plug should there be any breakthrough in the front line. It is a most important role and one that we should continue permanently.
We must consider how we can best find the men to replace the present brigade in this role. Obviously, it will need to be a United Kingdom-based brigade because we face a personnel ceiling in Germany. There is no way in which we can get any further men for this purpose out of the present strength of the Rhine Army. However, it does not need to be a large formation. It is necessarily a slimline

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force. It could not move itself quickly by helicopter if it had a vast tail. We are talking about perhaps 3,000 men—rather than the 15,000 to which I referred in the case of 1 Brigade committed to the defence of Denmark. I think that it should be possible for us to obtain, out of the Army's strength in this country the men necessary to form this new brigade when 6 Brigade returns to the armoured role in a couple of years.
We are seeing a complete change in thinking about the use of helicopters on the battlefield. They are increasingly being seen as fighting vehicles. It is interesting that the commander of an attack helicopter is not the pilot, any more than a tank driver is the commander.
If we want to retain a helicopter construction industry in this country, as we should, we must place regular military orders for helicopters. We cannot expect Westland to stay in business if we place orders on an intermittent basis. There must be a regular ordering programme, and we must face that fact.
I know the arguments against making decisions at this time. For one thing, it is hard to decide the size of the new troop helicopter helicopter. Personally I believe that it should not be too large. Obviously, there are advantages in carrying a large number of men at one time, but if we lose a large helicopter, we are in danger of losing a large part of an infantry battalion with it. The Special Air Service was involved in a tragic crash in the Falklands. A large part of the force was lost in one helicopter. I favour a 15-man or 16-man lift rather than a lift involving 30 men or more.
Army logistics is an enormous task in peace time, and, of course, it is even greater in war time. The Army possesses huge depots. That at Donnington contains the largest and most modern warehouse in the country. It is fully automated. The supply line goes from the depots in this country to Germany. An excellent job is done by thousands of men, many of them civilians, in this logistics system. Perhaps they do not receive enough public praise because they are not so much in the public eye, but without them the front-line units could not function. They are absolutely vital. The end of the logistics line is at the front line, to which vast quantities of ammunition, fuel, food and spares must be provided. We should pay tribute to the men involved in that side of the Army, as well as their colleagues involved in the front line infantry armour and artillery.
The Army is well equipped and in very good heart. There is, however, one piece of equipment to which I must refer. A decision must now be taken about the replacement of the Abbott self-propelled gun. It is old, too small, its shell is not powerful enough and, above all, its range is too limited. It cannot read the targets. In particular, it cannot hold off at arm's length the artillery that would be firing at it. Our gunners are the best in the world, but we are not giving them sufficiently modern equipment. The proposed replacement, the SP70, the NATO gun, has been talked about since the 1970s, hence its name. It will be the SP90 by the time it gets into service, if ever. It will certainly not be in service in the time scale that we need for our four regiments that still have Abbott. It is not a matter of money; it is a matter of having tried to make work a co-operative project within NATO. That is of course a very commendable aim.
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The time has come when we should go our own way with the replacement. Vickers at Barrow has developed a gun to fulfil this role. We should now look down that line and not hold back any longer on the SP70.
I have talked about the equipment and the organisation of the Army. Above all, however, it is the personnel that give the Army its strength. If one meets the Army, whether it be in the Falklands, the United Kingdom or Germany, one cannot fail to be impressed by the young men, and indeed young women, in the units. They are well trained, well motivated, well led and well equipped. We can be proud of them. They do a great service for the country, and so do their families who so often have to live without them when they are away on detachment and exercises.
8.48 pm
Mr. Frank Cook: I must register vested interests—a small one in that I served as a regular in the British Army, and was proud to do so, and a larger one in that the youngest of my brood, my son, is serving in the British Army in West Germany, not a million miles from Hanover. Of course, I cannot tell the House where he is serving because the Soviets may be listening. I am even prouder of his service because it is of more value than mine was. The Opposition are all proud of the role performed by the British service man and service woman. We have always been proud of their role because, God knows, the working classes have always supplied the majority of those who have filled that role. I offer that point as a type of defence for my comments.
Sadly, the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne) has left the Chamber, but I shall comment on his speech so that he may read my points tomorrow. The hon. Gentleman was quick to comment on the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett), but he promptly forgot the contents of my hon. Friend's speech. He disregarded my hon. Friend's exhortation not to engage in debate by rubbishing arguments. My hon. Friend appealed for logic, but the hon. Member for Winchester quickly forgot that appeal when he launched into an attack by rubbishing—not my choice of word—the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies). Logic was certainly missing from his criticism and his following arguments.
The hon. Member for Winchester appealed to us to respond by organising the Army in a manner similar to the Swiss. That may well be good advice, but the hon. Gentleman forgot to mention that the Swiss have no surface vessels and submarines and do not have the gamut of international responsibilities that we have. The hon. Gentleman tried to criticise by innuendo nuclear-free zones. He said that Chernobyl had proved that no such thing as a nuclear-free zone could exist. We agree, but the concept of nuclear-free zones refers to the perpetrator, not the recipient. We believe that the ideal nuclear-free zone is a nuclear-free world. Sadly, the hon. Member for Winchester has admitted his reluctance to work towards that goal.
The hon. Member for Winchester said that we needed a professional force equipped with modern integrated weapons so that we were prepared. I welcome that statement because, by making that admission, the hon. Gentleman has put himself shoulder to shoulder with the Opposition. That is exactly what we seek. How prepared are we? In late October and early November 1984, I was able to visit the NATO headquarters, the Supreme

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Headquarters Allied Powers Europe and West Germany. I saw that the provision for the Army's role for defence and counter-attack was appallingly inadequate. That was the fault not of the Army but of this Government, and perhaps partly of previous Governments. This Government had let the Army down. They had not let the generals down, because they were being well catered for in terms of salary and remuneration. The Government had simply let the forces down generally.
The Tommy Atkins of our armed forces were ill-equipped. I witnessed service men of many years experience tending vehicles that were measurably older than they were. The vehicles were treacherously out of date. The men were looking after the vehicles in an examplary fashion with the most meagre resources. I saw armoured vehicles with wonderful armour and magnificent armaments—weapons that could shoot a pea off a drum at about 6,000 m, but armoured vehicles that were immobilised by inadequate, inefficient motive power units.
The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Conway), who is not here either—I wonder where Conservative Members go; perhaps this is another retreat like the one from Egypt about which we heard—referred to Warsaw pact tanks that outnumber ours by 2:1. If we have tanks with inefficient, ineffective motive power units which cannot start in weather like today's, surely this gives the Warsaw pact even greater superiority. Is this not more proof—if proof were needed—that we need increased spending on conventional weapons? I learnt that some of the motive power units, which must continue to function effectively if we are to avoid cannibalisation and so reduce the number of effective components, needed spare parts. That is simple logic. Some of those spare parts could be obtained only from sources in Warsaw pact countries. In making these comparisons between the Warsaw pact and NATO, the position can become more preposterous than is worthy of comment.
These circumstances were commonplace. I am forced to remind the Minister of State that he said that the service men serve us well, and so they do. But, if we allow such a situation to exist, how well do we serve them? Why is there such a shortage of resources? Is it simply because the grotesque level of spending on nuclear weapons precludes us from putting sufficient money into conventional weapons—expenditure that is principally a mechanism of direct drainage of British economic resources straight into the copious coffers of Uncle Sam's nuclear weapons mongers—or is it neglect?
The lack of provision of conventional resources must be made good. I doubt that we would have any argument about that; hence the Labour party's policy for the redirection of the defence budget allocation from Trident schedules and the like to a programme of procurement of weapons of the very latest design in conventional terms—in fact, exactly that for which the hon. Member for Winchester called. We need to give our service men and women the tools to do the job for which they are trained and for which they are prepared to give their lives.
Do not the battlefield buffoons in the Conservative trenches realise that by depriving our troops of the most modern conventional arms they are condemning them to an early death from nuclear weapons in the Soviet strikes that would have to be made in response to our introduction of their use?
Mr. Robert Atkins: What about chemical shells?
Mr. Cook: The hon. Gentleman mentions chemical shells. The hon. Member for Winchester said that we cannot disinvent nuclear weapons. Of course we cannot, any more than we can disinvent chemical shells, poison gas, bacteriological warfare or the venereal divisions used by the Germans on the eastern front during the last war. Does the fact that we cannot disinvent them mean that we have to use them, because that is the form of logic being applied in this debate?
Mr. Atkins: Despite suggestions from the Opposition, I am not necessarily arguing that we need offensive chemical weapons. My point is that one shell in four in the Warsaw pact countries is a chemical shell, and if we have no answer to that, the threat that the Warsaw pact forces could use them is a threat that we need to think about.
Mr. Cook: I take the hon. Gentleman's point in the spirit in which he makes it, but since we know so little about our own secret services and the tricks that they get up to in this country, I am not sure that I can put much credence in secret service information emanating from Eastern bloc countries.
While I was in Germany I discussed these issues with the most senior of our staff officers, with General Sir Martin Farndale and his senior staff. I also discussed them during my visit to Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe and NATO headquarters. I should like to tell the House about one reaction to much of the discussion that went on over a number of days, sometimes into the early hours of the morning. Other ranks and non-commissioned officers were half amused but half admiring of the fact that I wore a CND badge because I am a member of the CND. I wore it in the mess and wherever I met military personnel and it served as a useful vehicle to open the subject.
I was impressed by a very senior British officer with whom I discussed matters at great length. I found him standing contemplating himself, as I thought, in a mirror but then I realised that his eyes were fixed on a point beyond the image of his own reflection and that he was deep in thought. I left him like that for a while. He said, "Frank," and I said, "Yes, Sir?" He said, "Do you remember the discussions that we had on nuclear disarmament?" I said, "Of course, I remember them vividly." He said, "I have been thinking carefully about them and I must tell you that if I were in your position I would have to adopt the same stance, because your logic holds good. Sadly, because of my position here, I suppose I shall have to put the argument into the tray marked 'Too difficult'."
When one puts that conversation alongside the constant appeals that we had from service men and women of all ranks for increased expenditure on conventional weapons—because that is the only kind of resistance that they would be able to offer to any insurgence of Soviet troops across that border—one sees the kind of dilemma with which we are faced.
Deterrence was the order of the day, so we must deprive our units of adequate supplies of the latest kit. Deterrence against what? We are told that General Rogers has threatened to withdraw about 350,000 United States troops from Europe if the Labour party comes to power and implements its policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament. That was barely reported in Britain until it was picked up almost accidentally on the American media.

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Further, members of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee who discussed this with us when we visited America in September last year used similar suggestions. I will not say threats; I shall call them suggestions.
That idea has been seized upon by the Conservative party in its more hysterical moments. So anxious is that party to continue to pour taxpayers' money into the purse of the American armourers, that it dispatched, without entry documents, I might add, Norman the two-wheeler to reassure his Republican cronies across the water that the Conservatives would continue to buy American weapons.
It is said that the deterrent is necessary, but what does it deter? If the argument that it is necessary holds good, is it a deterrent against Soviet aggression or against American withdrawal? The British electorate is entitled to know the answer to that one. Is not this pretence of nuclear defence merely a means of justifying the continued funding of the American war machine suppliers?
I shall conclude as I began, with two points of emphasis. The first point is the registration of pride in our service people for the job that they perform so selflessly. My second point is an appeal that we in this House at long last latch on to more logic in considering the type of equipment with which we arm our troops, men and women, when we expect them to put their lives on the line on our behalf.
9.4 pm
Mr. Toby Jessel: The hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) spoke of the need for logic. What was missing from his speech and that of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) was a little arithmetic. The Labour party wants to end Britain's independent nuclear deterrent and spend the money instead on more conventional weaponry and manpower. Our nuclear weapon, Trident, is to cost some 3 per cent.—that is, about one thirtieth part—of our national defence budget. Abolition of it could lead to an increase in conventional defence expenditure of only about one thirtieth. If Britain's forces comprise about one fifteenth of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forces, we are then talking about one thirtieth of one fifteenth. So the abandonment of Britain's deterrent could increase conventional forces for the defence of the West by roughly one thirtieth of one fifteenth, which is one four hundred and fiftieth.
The Warsaw pact, including the Soviet Union, has broadly double the conventional forces of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. It has about 400 submarines as against our 200, about 7,000 military aircraft against our 3,000, and about 200 army divisions against about 120 on the NATO side. How can it possibly help to protect us to increase conventional forces by one four hundred and fiftieth part and abandon the protection afforded by the nuclear deterrent? That policy of the Labour party means taking a terrible risk with our security. The public know it, and I believe that it is the main reason for the fall-off in Labour support in opinion polls in the past six months.
As for the policy of the Liberal party and the Social Democrats, if by some misfortune they were to hold the balance in a hung Parliament, no one would have the slightest idea what Britain's defence policy was going to be. Last September the Liberal party conference voted to
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end before very long Britain's independent deterrent. The Liberal leader in a recent debate in the House listed six alternative defence policies without saying which of the six he supported. The Social Democrats do not want Trident but want Polaris, which will, in a matter of years, become out of date and not credible. The so-called alliance is deeply split from top to bottom. Its members are at sixes and sevens and their fumbling attempts to paper over the cracks deceive no one. That is why they too have fallen away sharply in the opinion polls.
A defence policy has to work. It has to protect and to deter, and it must do so credibly. It is no use going through the motions with a defence policy that is not credible. It is only the Conservative party that has a clear, honest and strong defence policy, and only the Conservative party that can keep Britain safe and free.
I turn to another Conservative cause, the long-term retention of the Royal Military School of Music at Kneller Hall, Twickenham, which trains British Army bands, whose high standards of excellence are the envy of the world. I should first thank my right hon. and hon. Friends who are or have been Defence Ministers over the past four years for their endless patience in this matter, as this is the 14th time that I have raised the subject in the House, and the third time in an Army debate. I have had 12 meetings with Ministers, one with the Prime Minister last January, one with the Secretary of State for Defence in March, two with his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), one with my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Mailing (Mr. Stanley), one four years ago with my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin), three with my noble lord, Lord Trefgarne, one with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and two with my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Freeman). The only Defence Minister who has dodged me so far is my hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton), who is sitting on the Front Bench and, I understand, is to reply to this debate.
Although I thank the Defence Ministers for their patience, I make no apology either to them or to the House that I have been almost constantly on about this. Kneller Hall is seldom out of my thoughts. If it has become close to an obsession, that reflects the fact that I care greatly about it. It is a cause that has caught my heart and my imagination. I am fortified by the knowledge that I am not alone, because 164 of my right hon. and hon. Friends signed early-day motion 397 in 1986; those 164 included 12 of the 17 officers and executive of the 1922 Committee. I shall not read the motion to the House again because it is long, but that tremendous support from my colleagues has been echoed by support from another place where Major-General Earl Cathcart led a debate last February. Apart from Lord Trefgarne, who wound up the debate, the five peers who spoke were unanimous in their support for maintaining the status quo.
That support is echoed by the public. A total of 18,579 people have signed petitions. Those people are largely my constituents from Whitton, Twickenham, Teddington and the Hamptons, but also include a considerable number of constituents of my right hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Sir B. Hayhoe). Many of us were delighted a fortnight ago when he received an honour. His constituency boundary comes close to Kneller Hall and he has been a tower of strength in the matter. Others who signed the petition were constituents of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr.

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Ground)—whose constituency is about half a mile away—and of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Barnes (Mr. Hanley). Both my hon. Friends have strongly supported Kneller Hall.
Kneller Hall has been the home of the Royal Military School of Music in Twickenham for 129 years. The Army bands trained there lift the spirit of the nation. They represent one of our finest traditions. They enhance morale in the Army. They promote recruitment and as part of the traditional British scene they help to attract to our shores visitors whose spending generates income and employment and yields a tax revenue. The high standard of British Army bands is linked inextricably to the standards of Kneller Hall, which is doing a marvellous job in training Army bands.
Some people in the Ministry of Defence have dreamt up a scheme of improvement to merge Kneller Hall with the training of bands in other services. As the late Dr. Samuel Johnson, who frequently visited my constituency, said when he went to see Garrick at Hampton:
"most schemes of political improvement are very laughable things."
I finally ask my right hon. and hon. Friends, the Ministers in the Ministry of Defence, to note the received American wisdom, "If it ain't bust, don't fix it."
9.13 pm
Mr. David Young: Pride in the Army has been expressed from both sides of the House, so we are not arguing about whether we are proud of those people on whom our safety depends. What we are arguing about is how they should be equipped and armed.
When opening the debate, the Minister said that his party felt that a combined conventional and nuclear response was required. Our contention is that, because the present forces on the European side are almost entirely dependent on nuclear weapons, the result will be to resort to those weapons within hours and days rather than weeks and months. That means that within a short time of a war starting, nuclear weapons will be used and escalation will be inevitable. There would then be no possibility of reaching a diplomatic solution.
I think we have all assumed too much that a war would be calculated as wars in the past have been. There is a great danger that a limited conflict may escalate into a major conflict. However, my argument applies in the other direction as well, because not all our allies in NATO have nuclear weapons. Norway and others will not have nuclear weapons on their soil. We must also remember that, since the 1950s, the British Army has been involved in limited actions in the Falklands, Cyprus, the Lebanon and Northern Ireland. The kind of training and equipment necessary for such conflicts and that required in any future actions will not rely on nuclear equipment.
In common with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook), who spoke about a visit to Germany, I recall seeing a battalion in Cyprus that had arrived there after peacekeeping duties in the Lebanon. I remember comments from that battalion about the aged equipment with which they were required to work in Lebanon. That made me believe that the Government were not backing the men in doing their duty because a professional army requires up-to-date and professional equipment.
I also claim that defence in this age depends not only on equipment but on an economically sound nation. I do
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not think that Ministers can slap their backs on that count. If we are to have an independent defence, there must be an independent and updated supply industry. As we have all seen, the problem is that more and more of our contracts are dependent on United States suppliers. We must be very careful. When a contract for equipment goes to the United States, it is accompanied by the technology upon which our defence industry depends for the future.
These are the matters that concern me greatly. Much has been said of the Falklands contest. That is the kind of action in which we are likely to become involved in the future. I remind the House that at the end of the Falklands conflict some of our batteries were down to six shells. If we hold up the Falklands conflict as a glowing example, we must remember what a near-run thing it was. The outcome was not achieved by foresight; it came about more by accident and the grace of God than by the will of the Prime Minister.
We entered into the Falklands conflict when we were negotiating the sale of aircraft carriers. After the first parliamentary delegation visited the Falklands, we were de-briefed by Admiral Woodward, who told us that he could not have mounted the operation if the carriers had been sold. We must also consider the fact that, once a conflict escalates to the use of nuclear weapons, the military and civilian casualties on both sides are incalculable. The effects of dropping nuclear shells cannot be restrained.
I remember watching an operation at the Commando training centre in Norway two years ago in which a medical team was trying to deal with a man encased in a protective radiation suit. It took a team of five almost 10 minutes to cut him out of the suit. I asked the team what casualties they would expect after the first nuclear engagement and was told that there would be thousands, if not tens of thousands. In such a situation, is it not reasonable that we should argue that our contribution to NATO should be as one of a group of equals with a common purpose other than as a member of a group dominated by one partner, America, as at present? As our contribution, we should aim to ensure that the nuclear response was not the first alternative and that the brake was put on through the use of an adequate conventional force. When nuclear weapons are used, there is no point of return. We must strive to protect Britain, but we must also aim at preserving peace.
9.20 pm
Mr. Kevin McNamara: This has been an interesting debate. Proper compliments have been paid by both sides of the House to our armed forces and, in an Army debate, compliments have been paid in particular to the Army. That is correct.
In congratulating the services, we should not overlook the fact that during the past few years there have been some incidents that do not reflect too well on the armed forces. There was a breakdown of discipline in Cyprus, which resulted in the Cyprus spy case and the Calcutt inquiry. There was also the incident in the 1st battalion of the 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles. It amounted almost to a mutiny and led to 110 men being dismissed. No proper explanation was given. Some of the Ministry of Defence statements and off-the-record briefings contained terrible racial overtones that were quite shocking. There was also the Royal Green Jackets incident which is now the subject of an inquiry. There have

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been allegations of initiation ceremonies and of serious bullying and malpractice. This should be a matter of concern to the House, because it devalues the reputation of the armed forces. The House should be given more information. The facts should not be hidden from hon. Members.
Before Christmas there was the banal announcement that the Household Cavalry was hunting deer in the New Forest. That did not go down very well with most people. Of all blood sports, hunting is the one that most people want abolished. To flout public opinion by allowing the Household Cavalry to take part in a most cruel and barbaric sport is unforgivable. The excuse was that the horses needed to be exercised. What would happen if a squaddie at the Army School of Driving at Leconfield said that he wanted to test the commanding officer's staff car by taking his girl to a disco? Would he be allowed to do so? Of course he would not. The same kind of abuse of public property took place before Christmas.
When the Prime Minister has the courage to go to the country and the Labour party forms the next Government, this practice will be stopped, and if any hunting takes place on Ministry of Defence property it will also be stopped—
Dr. Glyn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. McNamara: No, I shall not. We shall stop any hunting on Ministry of Defence property until we have legislation on the statute book—[Interruption.] On all occasions when I have wound up defence debates I have allowed hon. Members to intervene and to take up time that ought to have been used by me. I have not sought to intervene in today's debate.
The hon. Member for Hampshire, East (Mr. Mates) said that my statements about the accident to the nuclear convoy were irresponsible. If there was a degree of irresponsibility, it was shared by a great many people in this country. They fear nuclear accidents. Nobody said that there would be a nuclear explosion. Nor did I. If, however, Professor Joseph Rotblat, a member of the team that originally designed the atom bomb, says that a fire and conventional explosion could have spread the plutonium used in nuclear weapons across the countryside, that is a source of consternation, fear and worry and it is proper for hon. Members to ask questions about it. On top of that there is a fire tender in the convoy to prevent just that type of accident. The hon. Member for Hampshire, East is the one who is irresponsible by not accepting—
Mr. Mates rose—
Mr. McNamara: No, I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman made his speech and then he left the Chamber. The hon. Gentleman has come back and he will get the same treatment as I had during his speech, but I did not seek to interrupt him.
Mr. Mates rose—
Mr. McNamara: We are also aware that although the Ministry denied that there was any prospect of a nuclear leak—
Mr. Mates rose—
Mr. Robert Atkins: Give way. That was a personal attack on my hon. Friend.
Mr. McNamara: The hon. Member for Hampshire, East made a personal attack on me.
Mr. Mates rose—
Mr. McNamara: America put scientists at a satellite receiving station on a red alert to make sure that there had been no nuclear leak.
The hon. Member for Hampshire, East also said that we should not speak about such things because the Russians might not know about them, but the Russians have satellites and know all about the movement of those convoys.
The hon. Gentleman also said that I should not complain about convoys being moved about in the winter. I should like to know who planned that route. I thought that they were carefully planned, but the roads were not gritted properly and that allowed the accident to occur. I was not irresponsible. Anyone involved in such matters has the right to make such comments and ask such questions.
Mr. Mates rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. McNamara: I will now turn to the question of irresponsibility. I want to know how it was that the Queen's Own Highlanders were allowed to go to Kenya without adequate precautions to see that the men—
Mr. Mates: What a ridiculous thing to say.
Mr. McNamara: I should have thought that the possibility of the spread of AIDS among the British Army would be of concern to a former regular officer. The hon. Gentleman should be concerned about the health and safety of our men.
One is entitled to ask why adequate precautions were not taken before the men went out to Kenya. It was only when the Parachute Regiment arrived there that a decision was taken to prevent the men from going on leave at shore stations at Mombasa and elsewhere. By then the incidence of AIDS and AIDS-related deaths in that country was known as well as the fact that 65 per cent. of prostitutes in Nairobi carry the AIDS virus. It is a serious matter that should concern the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) tabled a number of questions about that today and the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security said, "I shall reply shortly." They were basic questions about who knew, when, why people were not told, and so on. All those questions could have been answered with simple straightforward replies—the facts were known.
The Under-Secretary had had a series of briefings—it is all in The Guardian—about what steps the Ministry was taking, what the Ministry had and had not thought about. We want to know who was responsible for not giving proper information to the regiment. Who was responsible for putting our troops in that risk when the facts were known?
Mr. Mates: What sort of risk?
Mr. McNamara: It is an important question for the Army and it is important to discover who was responsible.
I come to the Ministry's nasty habit of not answering questions in time or promising to answer after an awkward debate. The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Conway) spoke about the DROPS contract. I do not

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wish to enter into any of the controversy surrounding the allocation of the contract. I am concerned about those matters that were raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House about the treatment of the managing director of that firm at the hands of the Ministry of Defence.
The Secretary of State and Lord Trefgarne said that no pressure had been brought upon the firm and that the letter from the managing director that was brandished on "Panorama" was unsolicited, despite the fact that that was denied by the managing director of the firm.
In answer to my question, the Minister who is to reply said:
"I cannot answer precisely for my noble Friend on all those questions, but I shall certainly write to the hon. Gentleman.—[Official Report, 12 December 1986; Vol. 107, c. 731.]
That was over a month ago. I waited anxiously for an answer and looked in every post. I had letters about the Royal Green Jackets and letters about this, that and the other, but nothing about that issue.
Consequently, last Thursday I tabled some questions to jog the Secretary of State's mind. I asked again whether Major-General Stopford telephoned Mr. Trafford Boughton on 30 June asking him to send a letter, whether Ministry officials were involved and whether any records were kept of telephone conversations or calls to defence contractors or potential contractors. All those questions should have been given a yes or no answer, but I was told only that the Minister would answer shortly.
Somebody is not telling the truth. The major-general, the managing director or Ministers are not telling the truth. However, Ministers are sending out letters saying that the letter on "Panorama" was completely unsolicited. The managing director, however, said that he was specifically asked and bullied for that letter.
The matter must be cleared up. It is easy for the Government to reply and it is disgraceful that hon. Members should table question after question without being given a reply.
The hon. Member for Hampshire, East also mentioned the Gurkhas and the brigade's future. I share his concern, because in 10 years' time Hong Kong will be going. I was pleased to hear that the Select Committee would be looking into the matter of the future of the Gurkha regiments. However, our imperial history has left us with some problems. After all, we owe a debt to that kingdom for the part that it has played in helping us to defend our freedom. It is an impoverished country, which depends heavily on the help that it is given in overseas aid. Although I do not like the idea of mercenary soldiers being a form of overseas aid, I must say that the relationship between the two countries is long-standing and honourable.
The problems must be faced. There is some ambiguity about the Secretary of State's answers. We do not know precisely what the Ministry means when it says that in 10 years' time things will depend on the resources available. Does that mean that British battalions may be sacrificed to maintain the Gurkhas? Alternatively, does it perhaps mean that we should keep four or five battalions of Gurkhas? What role will they play? Are we talking about an extended role in Brunei or an extended role in the United Kingdom home base? Are we thinking, perhaps, in terms of our NATO commitment? I do not know the answer, but those points must be considered.
Mr. Mates: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. McNamara: No. With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, I am applying the same principle. I am not being particularly nasty to him—
Mr. Mates: That is the second time that the hon. Gentleman has made a personal remark about me, and if he does not give way he will be doing me a grave discourtesy.
Mr. McNamara: Three points have been raised that deserve a proper reply from the Minister. One concerns the shortage of helicopters for the armed forces and for the Army in particular. I am only sorry that the hon. Member for Northampton—
Mr. Mates: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. That is the second time that a personal remark has been made about an hon. Member by another hon. Member who has then declined to give way. There is only a convention—
Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a point of order for me. I am afraid that that happens quite frequently. The hon. Gentleman will know that if the hon. Member who is speaking does not give way, he must resume his seat.
Mr. McNamara: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We would like a precise statement from the Minister on future requirements for support helicopters. We were promised that a decision would be made by autumn 1986 and that a statement would be made by the end of the year. We are now entering 1987 and we are still waiting. Shall we get it tonight and, if not, when?
My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) asked a question about the SP70. We are still awaiting a reply. Money is being spent on it. Is it true that we are afraid to withdraw because of any cancellation debts that might apply to us if we pulled out before the others? If that is so, the SP70 will go on costing money and not getting anywhere.
What are we doing about possible alternatives to the M 109 and on the question of the AS90 with the Brazilians? The latter would seem to provide more jobs for us. Those are important matters for us.
The main burden of the debate, however, has been the question of the policies and strategies adopted by NATO. The Government have sought merely by reiteration of parrot phrases to maintain their case on that. It is a case which Labour Members, and especially my hon. Friends the Members for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) and for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook), raised to examine the entire strategy of NATO. It is true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) said, that those doctrines are now more than 20, 30 or 40 years old. They need to be considered carefully and examined precisely. Therefore, it does no good merely to reiterate the conventional wisdom of the present time without examining whether the premises upon which those policies are based are now tenable in the light of the changes that have taken place in military strategy and weapons capability during the past 20 or 30 years.
Many Labour Members no longer believe that the Soviets have an overwhelming superiority in conventional forces which would enable them quickly to overcome western conventional forces. My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda explained at some length the basis and reasons for considering those matters. The International Institute for Strategic Studies considered the conventional balance between the Warsaw pact and NATO. On page 225 of its strategic balance for this year it concluded:

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"Our conclusion remains that the conventional military balance is still such as to make general military aggression a highly risky undertaking for either side. Though possession of the initiative in war will always permit an aggressor to achieve a local advantage in numbers (sufficient perhaps to allow him to believe that he might achieve limited tactical success in some areas), there would still appear to be insufficient overall strength on either side to guarantee victory. The consequences for an attacker would still be quite unpredictable, and the risks, particularly of nuclear escalation, remain incalculable."
That is the point of the matter. Some hon. Members have spoken of the great deterrent value of the Trident system and nuclear weapons, but it was Sir John Nott, in a former incarnation as Secretary of State for Defence, who said:
"Having nuclear weapons means that we are not beholden to any tin pot dictator."
A few months later Galtieri landed in the Falklands and showed that nuclear weapons do not deter if we are not prepared to use them.
I wish to consider briefly a question that was raised. People have said that the Labour party has maintained that if we scrapped Trident the money saved could not do much for our conventional forces. The Minister said to me this morning that it would cost the Ministry of Defence £8·9 billion to maintain and provide equipment for an armoured division over 20 years. That is the figure given by the Ministry of Defence. Yet we are spending £9·9 billion on Trident over 20 years so that we would save £1 billion. That is without the running costs of £220 million a year which the Ministry has said it would cost to run Trident.
At present the Army has only 940 tanks in active service. Therefore, we could buy and operate 1,400 more. That would increase considerably the number of tanks available. Equally, we could use the money to buy 30 additional type 23 frigates and run them or we could use it for 10 new squadrons of Tornado GR1s and run them. That is clear from figures and statements from the Ministry of Defence.
The Government, whether they like it or not, must re-examine the whole basis of their defence policy. They do not have the money to maintain their present commitments. If they continue with Trident, the British Army of the Rhine will be run down in ammunition, training, weapon capability and many respects which the Minister was not prepared to mention as he tried to paint a glowing picture of these matters.
BAOR will be put at risk. if it is not capable of defending itself, it will weaken NATO and lower the nuclear threshold. Labour party policies are aimed so to strengthen our conventional forces, especially BAOR, that they will deter any would-be aggressor coming across the inner German border because they will be a strong, well-maintained and equipped, brave Army of which we all can be proud.
9.40 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Archie Hamilton): I congratulate the House on this wide-ranging debate, which has demonstrated the expertise and knowledge of the Army of many hon. Members. Several points have been raised which I shall try to answer in the short time available.
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The right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies), the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam) and my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter) were understandably concerned about the replacement for the Abbott gun and what was happening to SP70. In 1973 the Governments of Germany, Italy and the United Kingdom signed a memorandum of understanding to develop and produce collaboratively 155 mm self-propelled howitzers to meet their requirements as then foreseen. That followed the successful introduction into service of the collaborative FH70 towed howitzer.
The programme has encountered many problems in development and the House is well aware of them. That has resulted in slippages in the original time scale. At the same time, there have been changes to long-term operational requirements. To take account of the new operating characteristics of self-propelled artillery to be able to operate effectively against threat in the next century would need further extensive development and design modifications of the existing development prototypes. That would inevitably lead to further slippage of the programme.
In view of those uncertainties, the Defence Ministers of the three partners have met to discuss the way ahead of this important collaborative programme. It was acknowledged that because of the various difficulties encountered in the project to date it was no longer possible to develop and produce a collaborative howitzer in time to meet the earlier requirements of the nations. Accordingly, it was agreed that, to meet their most pressing requirements, nations should seek their own solutions on a national basis as judged necessary.
However, Ministers reiterated their support for the objective of achieving, if possible, a collaborative solution to meet their long-term requirements in this area. Therefore, they instructed their national armament directors to continue to explore the possibilities of continued collaboration for a longer-term procurement, taking into account the decisions that were taken meanwhile on national purchases so that Ministers could decide on the best way forward in due course.
Mr. Rogers: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Hamilton: I am afraid that I have a great deal to say.
The right hon. Member for Llanelli was most worried about our lack of orders for mines, and he mentioned antitank mines. The current in-service mine is known as Barmine and is to have its capability considerably enhanced to the whole width of a tank by the introduction of the FWAM fuses. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that the competition at sub-contract level for the production of the balance of our requirement for fuses to produce the full width attack anti-tank mine capability has just been concluded. The competition, which is worth about £28 million in all, has been won by Marconi Command and Control Systems at Hillend and the royal ordnance factory at Blackburn. Competition has yielded an estimated saving in excess of £3 million.
The right hon. Member for Llanelli and the hon. Member for Blaydon mentioned ammunition, particularly FH70 ammunition, where orders are allocated in accordance with the trilateral agreement which covers the programme.
However, the United Kingdom has a national order for the cartridge L6A1 which we expect to be placed in the

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near future. That does not fall under the tripartite agreement. Current FH70 ammunition orders placed in Germany are proceeding satisfactorily and there is no question of any default on the part of German industry.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Colchester. North (Sir A. Buck) referred to the important role of the Army's military correction training centre. I am very glad to acknowledge the valuable part that he has played in the work of that centre over the years.
The hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright) referred to the problems raised in the article in The Independent dealing with combat clothing. The article is inaccurate and misleading in several important aspects. That might have been avoided if the correspondent had taken advantage of the opportunity that was provided for a full briefing by the Army authorities concerned. The article referred to three items of combat clothing and I shall refer to just the first.
The introduction of flak jackets or combat body armour has not been "hit by spending restrictions." There is provision in the programme for the purchase of 138,000 items, starting in 1989, and that will be sufficient to equip all those who need special protection. However, before introducing what is an expensive item of kit, we need to be sure that it is right. That necessitates careful research on the design to ensure that it offers adequate protection and that it is not too heavy or uncomfortable for use in operational conditions. In other words, it must not impair operational performance.
The hon. Member for Woolwich also raised the question of the future location of the Army cataloguing authority. A review of defence codification is under way and the report of the study is now under consideration. The directorate of the defence codification authority is located in Glasgow—as the hon. Gentleman said—along with the naval codification staff. In the light of the study, I cannot give a categorical assurance about the location of the headquarters of the Army cataloguing authority until all our considerations are complete. I shall naturally keep the hon. Gentleman informed.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire, East (Mr. Mates) referred to the future of the Brigade of Gurkhas with the ending of the lease in Hong Kong. We have repeatedly made it clear that there will be a continuing role for the brigade in the British Army after 1997. Its final size and shape will turn on the operational and resource factors facing the entire British Army at the time, which it is too early, at this stage, to foresee. However, we welcome the fact that the Select Committee on Defence is looking into that.
The hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) paid tribute to the Territorial Army. However, he raised the point, as did my hon. Friend for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Conway), about unemployment benefit. Recent efforts have been aimed at resolving the anomaly whereby an unemployed TA member, as a result of receiving a relatively small amount of pay for attendance at a drill night, loses a great amount of benefit. Ministers and officials are examining that problem and it is hoped that an announcement will be made shortly. We already operate a scheme providing an enhanced disregard for TA members who are receiving supplementary benefit.
My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glynn) referred to problems with the sewers at Victoria barracks. The work that is being done on the sewers has been undertaken by the Thames water
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authority and the local authority outside the site of the MOD development. It is not our responsibility and. indeed, we are watching its progress as closely as are the local residents. It may not be a matter that concerns the Opposition Front Bench, but I am sure that it concerns my hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter) mentioned the future of the UK MF. There are no current plans to withdraw or alter the nature of that force.
My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) mentioned, as he has done before, the issue of Kneller Hall. I am happy to be the last Defence Minister to give my hon. Friend the reassurance that he is seeking. A decision will be made soon on that and my right lion. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces will be in touch with him on that.
The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) raised the question of the letter which was written about DROPS by Boughton. The difficulty was that if Boughton participated in the "Panorama" programme or otherwise influenced criticism about its elimination from DROPS, the only way in which we could respond in public to explain our position was to spell out its shortcomings in public.
We did not wish to do that if it could be avoided. It was for that reason alone that General Stopford was instructed to ascertain directly from Mr. Boughton his attitude and involvement in the television programme. My noble Friend the Minister of State was not involved because he had no need to be. Mr. Boughton volunteered the fact that he wished to have no part in it. It is noteworthy that he has not, as far as I am aware, complained directly to the MOD about it even when invited by my noble Friend in November to comment on any aspects. I am not aware of any reported evidence of the conversation. However, I know that it accords exactly with the line volunteered on a separate occasion at the British Army equipment exhibition to the Chief of Defence Procurement and Brigadier Last. [Interruption.] We do not accept that we have acted improperly in any way towards Boughton and we reject all allegations of intimidation.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Speaker: I think that I heard the word "lie". I hope that I did not.
Mr. MacNamara: I was saying that the statement that was in the letter was a lie and that the letter had been solicited. I was not saying that the Minister was telling a lie. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. I wish only that he had answered my questions.
Mr. Hamilton: I was hoping that we had cleared up this difficulty.
Although we have considered the role of the Army in the nation's defence in general, the House is well aware that our principal task is to fulfil our commitment to NATO. If deterrence fails and war comes again to Europe, that means that BAOR will be fighting in Germany.
We have every reason to be proud of the professionalism and dedication of our soldiers and we can be confident that they have the will and the equipment to withstand a conventional attack from the forces of the Warsaw pact—for a time.
However, we have to accept that the Soviet Union and its allies have an overwhelming superiority of numbers in

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both men and equipment. However brave our men, however deadly their bullets and missiles, the conventional superiority of the Warsaw pact forces could well prove decisive. The NATO allies would do well to hold out against a major sustained attack.
How is it then that we have managed to deter the Soviet Union from war? As the House knows, since 1967 NATO has had a policy known as flexible response which does not rule out the use of nuclear weapons if conventional defence is seen to be failing. Such use could, of itself, halt the advance of Warsaw pact countries, but it would also be a powerful signal to the Soviet Union that it was running the risk of escalation and, ultimately, an unacceptable degree of damage.
The Soviets know that and realise the great dangers of undertaking any military adventure in Europe which could lead, ultimately, to a war from which neither side could possibly emerge victorious. That is at the heart of the theory and practice of deterrence and it has worked since 1945.
The Labour party seeks to change NATO's nuclear policy, the policy which keeps the peace in Europe. Labour seeks to render unprotected our troops, and those of our American allies, by removing their nuclear weapons. Surely the nub of the argument is the fact that even the best equipped and most highly trained armies of the world are defenceless if their enemy has nuclear weapons and they do not.
Mr. Mikhail Gorbachev—or at least his generals—must be living in the fervent hope of a Labour victory at the next election in this country. If Labour wins, Britain will disarm unilaterally while the strategic and theatre nuclear arsenals of the Soviet Union will remain virtually intact, even if the Kremlin makes the meaningless gesture of matching our disarmament missile for missile.
Not only has the Labour party adopted a policy which will strip our troops in this way, and which promises the abandonment of the national strategic guarantee, which every British Government since the war has thought necessary, but it threatens the NATO alliance in a way in which the Soviet Union could never do.
Labour's proposals to close American nuclear bases in the United Kingdom would destabilise NATO and encourage that minority of Americans who say that the United States has no business defending Europe anyway. A number of senior Americans believe that the effect on NATO would be absolutely catastrophic. I can say only that it is fortunate that the British people will never let it be put to the test.
It is well known that many in the United States are growing increasingly frustrated at what they see as Europe's lack of commitment to defend itself. A refusal by the United Kingdom to share the burden in Europe will only increase the strength of the American lobby which argues for United States' withdrawal.
Labour politicians are keen to reassure themselves that Europe must remain America's front line. However, it does not need a great leap of imagination to foresee their policies encouraging a minority in the United States to press for American defence policy to be confined to the shores of the United States, and for Europe to assume the role of being no more than another buffer zone.
It is no good the Opposition saying that savings on Trident would be spent on conventional arms to make up
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the difference. This was referred to by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Colchester, North and my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham. What that money will buy will not make up the difference. At most, it may buy two armoured divisions—about 300 tanks. At the same time, the Warsaw pact already has about 30,000 more tanks than NATO, of which 25,000 are to be found in eastern Europe. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State described earlier the increasing capability of the Warsaw pact. What would deter the occupants of the Kremlin more—Trident or another 300 tanks in a British corps which had no tactical nuclear weapons to respond to theirs? Such improvement in our conventional capability is no deterrent. It might delay the moment of reckoning; it certainly would not affect the outcome.
Let us examine the claim from the Opposition that all the savings on Trident would be spent on conventional defence. Am I alone in finding that claim almost incredible? When one considers Labour's commitment to increase public expenditure by £28 billion a year, are we really expected to believe that a Labour Government will continue to maintain level funding on defence despite the difficulties that they will meet in fulfilling their commitments to spend massively in other areas of the public sector?
NATO cannot afford to have an expensive and protracted conventional war fought over its territory. It has been NATO's nuclear capacity that has deterred our enemies and prevented a third world war, another conventional war in Europe.
The Leader of the Opposition said that NATO's defence policy rests on increasingly untenable assumptions. They are not untenable assumptions, but unpalatable facts for any potential aggressor. It is his assumptions which are untenable, not ours or NATO's.
The right hon. Gentleman has said that he is not prepared for his country to die for him. I have no idea what that was supposed to mean, and I suspect that he has not either, but it sounded rather good and that was probably enough for him.
The reality is that Europe without nuclear weapons brings the possibility of war closer as the continent becomes safer for conventional warfare. The likelihood of millions of Britons dying for the right hon. Gentleman becomes through his policies greater rather than less.
The truth is that the Labour party cannot admit the real choice that it offers over defence policy. That choice is either collective security as a member of a defensive alliance which relies on nuclear weapons as the final guarantee, or isolated neutralism.
No other state in NATO rejects the nuclear element of the Alliance's policies, because our allies can see that we are all faced by a nuclear threat.
There are many Opposition Members who would like to see the Labour party adopt not some but all of CND's policies—we have heard from one or two of them this evening—by breaking with our NATO allies and going down the neutralist road. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) is proud of being a member of CND. If he is a member of CND, presumably he wants to follow its policies, and there are many other such members of the Labour party. I cannot see how the hon. Gentleman can be a member of CND without wanting to see its policies followed through.

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The Labour party will find that it is unrepresentative of the British people on the issue of defence as it is on so many others.
Britons have fought in two world wars in Europe and have no wish to be drawn into another. They realise that unilateral disarmament makes a third world war more likely, not less. That is why they will reject the Opposition's defence policy at the next election and support the Government's well-tried principles which have given us peace in Europe since 1945.
Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd (Lords Commissioner to the Treasury): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Speaker: With the leave of the House, I shall put together the three motions in the name of the hon. Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox).
Ordered,
That Mr. Eric Forth he discharged from the Employment Committee and Mr. Warren Hawksley be added to the Committee. [Sir Marcus Fox, on behalf of the Committee of Selection].
Ordered,
That Mr. Michael Stern be discharged from the Environment Committee and Mr. Jonathan Sayeed be added to the Committee. [Sir Marcus Fox, on behalf of the Committee of Selection].
Ordered,
That Mr. Tony Favell be discharged from the Social Services Committee and Mr. Patrick McLoughlin be added to the Committee. [Sir Marcus Fox, on behalf of the Committee of Selection].

British Coal (House Sales)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn,—[Mr. Lennox-Boyd.]
10 pm
Mr. Joseph Ashton: I thank you. Mr. Speaker, for giving me the opportunity of an Adjournment debate to raise the important and pressing problem of the houses that are currently being sold by British Coal.
Since 1976, British Coal has sold 70,000 of its houses to owner-occupiers at advantageous rates, and that has gone satisfactorily. However, nearly 20,000 houses are now left, which, in the main, are inhabited by elderly tenants, widows and so on, many of them pensioners who have served a lifetime in the mines, who are too old to take on a mortgage and who have no wish to be saddled with a mortgage at their time of life.
In addition, many of the houses are unfit and would not obtain a mortgage from a building society because of structural problems. In Nottinghamshire, where my constituency is, there are 4,200 such houses. In my constituency alone, there are 1,026. Of the two district councils that cover my constituency, Bassetlaw has 723 and Mansfield has 883. About 325 of the Nottinghamshire houses are defective and would have great problems in attracting a mortgage from anywhere.
So far, British Coal has pursued a policy of putting such houses up for auction and it intends to put some put to tender. The way that that policy has been carried out has caused a great deal of discontent. Many of the houses being sold wholesale in that way have fetched prices as low as £3,000. In a recent auction at the Kensington Hilton on 11 December, 149 properties in Wakefield were sold for an average price of £3,600. Fifty-five houses were categorised as having defects under the Housing Defects Act 1984. There were 55 in Staffordshire Moorlands which realised £235,000, and, at the Connaught Rooms, 151 properties fetched £618,000. In other words, an approximate price of less than £4,000 was paid per house.
Obviously, when such prices have been arrived at at auctions, property speculators everywhere have pricked up their ears and descend en masse for what looks like a good bargain. There has been strong criticism of the way in which British Coal has sold those houses, not just from hon. Members but from no less a body than the National Housing and Town Planning Council. In its magazine the council said that tenants are given just three months to make one of the most important and difficult decisions of their lives. Notification of the timetable for disposal within a local authority area was far too short and some British Coal areas are even refusing the common courtesy of telling the local authorities when the houses are coming up for sale.
Some houses were recently sold in my constituency and the local council found out only as a result of a small advert in the local weekly giveaway newspaper three days before the auction took place. There is strong criticism by the National Housing and Town Planning Council to the effect that the assessment of the purchasers' credibility and suitability as a landlord is not being taken into account by British Coal when literally anyone, no matter what his track record as a landlord, can buy them. Because British Coal insists on selling many houses at auction, controls over who buys them are impossible.

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There is also strong criticism about the availability of the names of the landlords. British Coal claims that the purchasers' names is a matter of commercial confidentiality. But surely it should not be selling to people unwilling to register their name publicly. The new landlord and tenant legislation which will go through Parliament this Session with all-party support is trying to stop such practices. British Coal should at least be made to operate to those standards.
It is in the interests of former British Coal tenants that the House and the Department should find some ways and means to help them. Speculators who are suspected of living in Athens have bought the houses. One firm called the Rare Carpet Company in Chelsea has put in bids for them. In places such as Creswell, houses were bought by a speculator for £3,000. Within six months, he had doubled the price and sold them to another speculator for £6,000. In many cases, it is impossible for tenants to have repairs done. Some houses were bought in Aston, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), and no rents were collected for 10 weeks. It is a Greek solicitor who collects the rent.
It appears that, in many areas, speculators are simply moving in to set up a modern form of Rachmanism. They buy these houses wholesale. They know that they are tenanted by elderly people and expect them to be empty within two or three years, in which case they will get as much as £18,000 for them. Of course, if the houses have to be pulled down because they are defective, the new buyers will have the land, and they will easily get planning permission to build on it.
Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse: Is my hon. Friend aware that, at the 11 December auction at the Kensington Hilton, some houses were sold for £2,600? Previously, the occupiers, aged miners, had been offered them for £3,600. Within days of the auction, the new owners knocked on those people's doors and offered them at £3,600, with a £1,000 profit in two to three days.
Mr. Ashton: My hon. Friend is right. I went to a meeting of the Tenants Federation in Mansfield last Saturday. It is trying to form a nationwide federation of tenants of British Coal houses because of what is happening. People go around knocking on doors of elderly people at 10.30 pm. They ask who lives in the house, how old they are, what their state of health is and what repairs need to be done. Forms have been sent. The Overseas Commodities Group attaches a £1 coin with a piece of sellotape to the bottom of the form. The form asks:
"Why was the freehold not bought when it was offered by the Coal Board? Is the house in good repair? Does it need electric wiring? How many people live there?
Obviously, those questions are asked with the intention of making a quick profit and a quick killing.
Not all the houses are defective. In Meden Vale, in my constituency, some were built in 1963. Because of the pressure applied by Members of Parliament, the auctions that were due to take place next week of 400 houses in Thurnscoe in Yorkshire and about 25 houses in Warsop in my constituency have been postponed by the Coal Board, but only for a month, so that we may have this debate. Because the House was in recess, we managed to apply some pressure to postpone the auctions.
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Because British Coal must dispose of all these houses, the remaining 20,000 must go by September 1988. Many think that this is a prelude to possible privatisation if the Tories win the next election. When we met the British Coal board leaders Sir Robert Haslam and Mr. Kenneth Cousins, the reaction we received was unsympathetic. They simply said that they are in the business of selling coal, not renting houses. Frankly, their attitude to many of their employees, who worked 30 or 40 years in the pits, who coughed up their lungs, and who travelled down from Newcastle and Durham and Scotland when the pits shut, to work in Nottingham, was deplorable.
Tenants federations have been formed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Mr. Lofthouse) said, when he went to that auction, the sellers were scared of demonstrations outside the auctions, driving down the prices. In many cases, the Coal Board was worried about demonstrations.
There is a simple answer to the problem of absentee landlords not doing repairs and of tenants not being properly looked after. It is to allow councils to buy the houses. For instance, in my constituency, both Bassetlaw and Mansfield councils wish to buy these houses. It is not just a matter of doing repairs on the houses. Many of them are next to slag heaps. The environments are poor and need to be landscaped. Weeds are growing out of the gutters. The pavements need proper attention. They are derelict areas. They are beginning to decline into a state of decay and disrepair. When an absentee landlord owns many houses in a street, it is difficult to get this sort of work done.
Bassetlaw and Mansfield councils have said that they are willing to buy these houses at a fair price. It is much cheaper to buy a house at £6,000 than to build a new council house at £20,000. It is common sense for the councils to buy the houses, because they will get their money back in rent in two or three years. That is why the speculators want these houses. Fair rents of £17.40 a week have beeen set on some. The tenants are being charged £15, so the speculators will immediately increase the rent by £2.40. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. McKay) has said that, in Elsecar in his constituency, the speculators' first action was to knock on the door and ask for £100 before starting on any improvements.
This serious problem affects nearly 20,000 houses. What stops councils from buying these British Coal houses? It is not cash. Bassetlaw council gained £6 million from selling off council houses, as the Government forced it to do. Mansfield council gained £5 million from receipts of council house sales. Those councils are willing to use that money, but the Government will not let them do so. The Government's arbitrary, dogmatic attitude is not to allow councils to use the cash from council house sales.
That is pretty stupid, but even more stupid is the fact that the law in Scotland is different. Scottish councils can use and are using that cash to buy the British Coal's houses. East Lothian council is actively negotiating to buy 130 British Coal houses. The funding comes from the authority's capital allocation. The negotiations are not subject to Scottish Office approval. I do not want to bore the House, but the facts and figures which the Library has given me should be put on the record. The Library's letter states:
"local authorities…cannot contain general borrowing approval for the Municipalisation. Circular 9/85 Capital

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programmes—Annex A issued in March 1985—gives the types of activity which receive block borrowing approval; municipalisation is excluded without the consent of the Secretary of State".
That is what the Adjournment debate is all about. We are asking the Under-Secretary of State to bring English local authorities into line with Scottish local authorities. That can be done. The letter states:
"A large number of housing authorities in England therefore could buy NCB houses since most authorities are no longer receiving housing subsidy."
These houses could be bought by using the capital allowance. The Library's letter continues:
"This presupposes, of course, that the local authorities have sufficient capital receipts to meet the cost of purchase, and that they have not already allocated the prescribed proportion (generally 20 per cent.) which they arc allowed to spend in addition to their HIP allocation."
We are asking for the other 80 per cent. to be spent. We want English local authorities to have the same financial allocation that exists in Scotland to give them a chance to buy these housing estates.
I do not know whether the Under-Secretary of State has ever been in a mining area in the north of England. I do not wish to be derogatory, but this shows one of the problems that we have with Conservative Ministers. If the hon. Gentleman has been to that region, he would know that in many areas the metal struts of many houses have rotted and need massive attention. These houses are fetching about £2,500 at auction. The councils admit that in some cases £14,000 is needed to repair them. The Government have made such sums available where tenants have bought houses from the Coal Board. In the past, when councils have bought houses which have been found to be defective, the Government have come up with grants to rectify the problems. The councils are not asking for those grants; they are asking only to be allowed to use their money, just as councils in East Lothian and other parts of Scotland can. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will say that the Secretary of State will allow that to happen.
10.13 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Richard Tracey): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) for raising this important subject. It is good to see the number of hon. Members on both sides of the House who are showing a keen interest in it. I fully appreciate the anxieties felt in coalfield communities. He has described them, but I can also tell him, and his hon. Friends will confirm, that I went to look at these houese some time ago with members of the Coalfield Communities Campaign, who conducted me on a very full tour. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy for his presence this evening. I know that he shares my interest and wishes to see the best possible outcome for all parties in this matter.
Before I go on to discuss the problems mentioned by the hon. Gentleman and by hon. Members on previous occasions, and the scope that there is for action on these issues, it is necessary for me to sketch in the historical background to the sale of British Coal housing so that we can get a better perspective of what is happening. The National Coal Board became a landlord on vesting day, 1 January 1947. It inherited a stock of 140,000 houses from the Coal Owners whose assets were taken into public ownership. Much of that housing was old and not in a good state of repair. Some of it was subsequently cleared.
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In the 1950s and the 1960s the National Coal Board, now known as British Coal, built 24,000 more houses under the aegis of the Coal Industry Housing Association, which was subsequently wound up. Some of the total stock of housing was sold to local authorities and some to the sitting tenants at a discount of 25 per cent. progressively over this period. By 1976 the board had disposed of 78,000 houses and a further 86,000 remained in its ownership.
The board decided to withdraw from the provision of housing in 1976, and thought that the disposal of its houses would take 10 years. Tenants were offered 50 per cent. discounts, 100 per cent mortgages and help with legal fees. By 1985 the board had 27,000 houses left, and it decided to complete the sale of these houses in three years. The terms were that tenants be given three months in which to decide whether they were interested in buying. We must remember that the option had been open to them since 1976. If they decided not to buy, the properties were to be sold to local authorities and housing associations. Failing that, they would be released on the open market.
To date, 69 per cent. of British Coal's stock of houses, the vast majority, have been sold to the tenants and a further 20 per cent. to local authorities and housing associations. The expectation is that the majority of the remaining 15,700 houses will be sold to sitting tenants, local authorities and housing associations—not necessarily in the same proportions. Therefore, the number of houses that will remain to be sold to private landlords will be very small, particularly when seen in relation to the enormous numbers of houses that were once owned by the board. The vast majority of the sales have been successful and untroubled by complications.
Mr. William O'Brien: I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene on this point about the sale of houses, because in my constituency, in Alton in Leeds, there is an estate of 210 houses that were owned by British Coal. These were sold last year. I should like to quote from a letter that I received from the chairman of the housing committee in Leeds, Councillor Bill Kilgallon. The letter says:
"The Airey form of construction, and likely long-term remedial costs associated with these, appears to have frightened off some of the speculators, although it now seems that a London property firm, Manchester Square Associates, are the purchasers… Officers have met managing agents for this organisation but their long-term intentions are not known, apart from the site having been offered for sale, by them, in recent weeks."
In other words, there is a knock-on effect for the tenants of the houses. The estate is deteriorating and there is no specified programme for what is to happen to it. That is the situation that confronts the tenants on the estates in these areas. Would the Minister take that on hoard and try to do something to stop this kind of Rachmanism that we find in the sale of British Coal houses?
Mr. Tracey: The hon. Member will know that I always take careful note of points like that which are made to me, and I certainly undertake to look into what he has said. I repeat that the vast majority of the sales have been successful and untroubled by complications. This evening we are talking about a small minority of houses. Nevertheless the points raised by the hon. Member and by his hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) will be taken into account by us.
I understand that the board built over 6,000 of the prefabricated reinforced concrete houses, known as PRC

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houses for short. They are now designated under the housing defects legislation. Over two thirds were sold to sitting tenants before it was known that they were of a defective type, and many of these will be entitled to assistance from their local authority under those provisions, provided that they bought before the cut-off date for their type of house. British Coal has been given no financial assistance to deal with its remaining PRC houses and does not believe that its tenants should take on the potentially heavy liability of defective housing.
Mr. Andy Stewart: I am delighted to hear the Minister undertaking to look at all the points raised by Opposition Members. I can only speak as I find. I have been dealing with this problem for 12 months. British Coal has been co-operative, has given me a moratorium on any PRC houses, has allowed my tenants time to explore all the avenues for buying.
Two years ago, if a local authority or a housing association were to buy, British Coal allowed a 30 per cent. discount. That has gone. I would like the Minister to look into this to see whether his Department can reintroduce it. We have to have a policy on PRC houses because some day they will have to be repaired. It is no good bucking the issue now when we know for certain that the taxpayer will have to pick up the bill later on.
Mr. Tracey: I can certainly confirm what my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr. Stewart) said. I can confirm that he has been in touch with British Coal on behalf of his constituents, and has had considerable success. British Coal has said that it will not sell these PRC houses to its tenants and it has for the moment suspended auctions on this sort of house, but I shall be saying later that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy and colleagues from that Department and from the Department of the Environment will be seeing British Coal and will take these further points to it. I would point out that only 700 PRC houses remain to be sold. That is all. That is a very small proportion of the total of 15,000 houses from the British Coal estates which remain to be sold.
Although it is a public body, British Coal has, of course, been a very large private landlord. Its tenants are protected by the Rent Acts. It has decided it does not wish to be a landlord any longer, and this is consistent with the Government's policy generally on the disposal of public sector houses and land. This decision, and decisions on the way it chooses to withdraw from the rental market, have been entirely the responsibility of British Coal's management.
At the same time it, and any body to whom it may sell its properties are bound by the Rent Acts and the Landlord and Tenants Acts with certain inescapable obligations prescribed by that legislation. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment can no more dictate British Coal's policies than he can any other landlord's. He can offer assistance or advice if it is wanted; it would not be proper for him to intervene. Hon. Members of course fully realise that.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: Why can they not do that in Scotland?
Mr. Tracey: I shall deal with Scotland in a moment.
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My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy and I are indeed alive to the problems that are alleged to have been occurring and are preparing to discuss them with the management of British Coal. Our two Departments are in contact on the issues and share a common concern that we should reach the best solution for the tenants compatible with the Government's objectives that British Coal should reach break-even by 1988–89.
I think it would be helpful if I say a few words about some of the problems raised this evening by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw. It has been alleged that some of the houses sold at auction have then been resold quickly, and that the tenants do not know who their new landlord is. I must say quite clearly that tenants have a legal right to know who their landlord is. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tell them."] I am telling the House that now. That is a fact. A new landlord must inform tenants of his name and address when he acquires the property. The tenant may ask for if from the agent or person who collects the rent, and the agent must supply it within 21 days. The agent or landlord may be fined up to £2,000 for failing to meet these requirements. I am prepared to tell the House that I believe that it is deplorable if landlords or their agents are breaking the law in this respect.
It has also been alleged that the new landlords are failing to tell tenants what their rent is when they take over the property, demanding large arrears payments and then initiating possession proceedings against tenants who fail to pay. The tenants, I make it quite clear, are protected by the Rent Acts under their new landlords as they were under British Coal. They are entitled to have fair rents registered for their property. They are entitled to a rent book if they pay their rent weekly. They do not have to pay anything more than the fair rent, and a new landlord cannot charge them an additional sum on top or take them to court for failing to pay it. A landlord cannot evict a tenant without going through the proper processes of the law. A tenant in arrears may be taken to court, but the court will award possession to the landlord only if it thinks it is reasonable to do so. If landlords are breaking the law, I deplore it. I cannot say this too strongly. I hope this debate will bring the tenants' rights to the attention of such landlords and, if any have failed in their statutory duties, that they set about complying with the law as soon as possible.
I believe the hon. Member's own authority has bought some British Coal houses at auction out of its capital receipts. I do not feel in general that this is the best use of resources, but it may have made sense to the authority in this particular case. There are restrictions on the amount of capital receipts that local authorities can use in any one year because the use of those receipts for capital spending does affect the public sector borrowing requirement. Capital receipts which are not spent immediately are mostly used to reduce borrowing; they diminish public borrowing in the year in which they arise, but must be replaced by fresh borrowings when they come to be used for capital spending. I remind the House that the external debt of English local authorities is already about £30 billion. We are not depriving authorities of their receipts, but simply requiring their use to be spread over time.
On the point made by the hon. Member about Scottish authorities, they are buying British Coal houses with their capital receipts. I must say that the Scottish capital control system in important respects is different from the English

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system. Although Scottish authorities are free to use the full amount of capital receipts arising in a year they cannot carry forward unused capital receipts to future years. To change to this system would disadvantage English authorities who can of course carry forward unused capital receipts. I do not think English authorities would want the Scottish system.
I sympathise with the view that the solution might be in some cases for registered housing associations to take over these properties. The Housing Corporation has particular priorities within its approved development programme, and was given a £20 million increase specifically for new schemes mixing 30 per cent. grant with
244
private finance. Within its priorities it is for the corporation to decide on the allocation of its resources. It will need to see specific costed proposals from registered housing associations on these properties and it is for it to decide on each scheme on its merits.
May I say that 89 per cent. of the 158,000 houses disposed of to date by British Coal have been successfully sold—
The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Derby.

AIDS: Cost of Treatment
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the average cost to the National Health Service of treating a person suffering from AIDS during the usual course of the effects of the disease.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Baroness Trumpington): My Lords, the Government are in the process of commissioning research regarding the overall cost to the NHS of a person suffering from AIDS. The costs of hospital treatment have been estimated to be in the range of £10,000 to £20,000, depending on the duration of in-patient stay.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for her reply. In their estimates for the future, do the Government visualise that the treatment of most of these patients will be carried out in a special ward of the kind about to be opened at the Middlesex Hospital?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the way in which care is provided by health authorities for AIDS patients is a matter for them to decide in the context of their planning arrangements. The majority of hospital admissions of AIDS patients result from opportunistic infections which can be dealt with by the appropriate medical specialty. There is also evidence that for much of his illness an AIDS patient can be treated in a community setting.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness has seen the recent report of the Health Visitors' Association with its very alarming figure of 56 cities and towns in which there are no health advisers at clinics to assist those who may be sufferers from AIDS and who are seeking advice? Is this not a vital aspect of the financial responsibility which unhappily falls upon the Government.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, AIDS patients at the moment are not spread widely around the country: they are somewhat pocketed. It will be a matter for health authorities to decide when they should appoint such people, if they wish to appoint them.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, will there be funds available for health authorities to appoint these important advisers and counsellors?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, we have apportioned extra money for
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AIDS. It will be up to the health authorities to use their funds in the way in which they think best.
Lord Kilmarnock: My Lords, are the Government aware—I am sure they are—of the work being done by Mr. Malcolm Rees on a sample of 70 patients at various London hospitals, which I understand is likely to work out at a cost in the region of £15,000 to £20,000? Are they also aware of the forecast made by Professor Maynard of the York University Health Economics Centre, which also came to £20,000? If these figures are confirmed in due course, will the Government take them fully into account in providing funds for this terrible disease?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the question of costing is in many ways still in its early stages. From the point of view of expenditure, we expect health authorities to spend some £10 million on tackling the problem of AIDS in the current financial year. In 1987–88 this should increase to £17 million. A further £7.5 million will be spent in this financial year rising to £16.5 million next year on publicity for the public health laboratory service and research funded directly by the Department of Health. Also, the Medical Research Council is allocating £1.5 million to 15 special projects concerning AIDS.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, will the noble Baroness not agree—I am sure she will—that the Government should be complimented on their endeavours with their TV programme? Will it not be possible now for the department to encourage all the various health authorities and, indeed, local government, to take similar action in the local press and in local publications to follow the lead given by the Government?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, will no doubt be aware that there is a leaflet drop to 23 million households today and following through this week.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, am I right in thinking that the financial aspects of this unfortunate matter are being studied by the committee presided over by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House? Can the noble Baroness confirm that the noble Viscount's committee will be reporting in due course? May we have some indication as to when we can expect such a report?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I can confirm that my noble friend the Leader of the House is chairing a committee. I do not think it would be for me to comment on his reporting. I might add that the Secretary of State at his press conference on 8th January announced that he proposes to convene a conference on the provision of care for AIDS sufferers outside hospital which will bring together a great many bodies and will be able to identify more clearly what our priorities and our response should be in the years ahead.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, will the noble Baroness convey to her noble friend the Leader of the House that we should be interested to know when his committee is likely to report?
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, will she have a word in his ear?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I have never known the box so near. My noble friend will, I believe, report from time to time.
Lord Winstanley: My Lords, as these cases clearly cannot be treated until they have been diagnosed, can the noble Baroness tell us something about the present cost of diagnosis, including screening? More specifically, can she tell the House the precise cost of an individual blood test for the presence of the virus, including the laboratory costs?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, with regard to screening, we are carefully considering the many complex and difficult issues that arise both domestically and internationally with regard to the screening of entrants to the UK, or indeed of any group—for instance, of entrants to particular employments like the armed forces. These are far from straightforward. The implications are profound both for individuals identified as carriers and for the general public. Those who have probed the issues will understand.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, is it correct that the cost of one blood test for AIDS is about £10 and likely to come down?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I am unable to gaze into a crystal ball.
Baroness Faithfull: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether Her Majesty's Government have been in touch with the National Association of Counselling which has offices and personnel throughout the country and which could very much assist in this matter?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, we welcome help from all voluntary and other bodies and we are in touch with them as much as possible. If they let us know of their efforts, we will gladly be in touch with them.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, have the Government taken into account the cost of additional staff required in hospitals to treat these cases, and the cost of preparing and equipping the hospitals to ensure complete safety against infection from blood and cut accidents?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, with reference to the cost of extra doctors and nurses, over 80 per cent. of AIDS patients are being cared for in three Thames health regions. In the light of this, the Government are considering the level of resources which they should receive in 1987–88. It is for health authorities to decide how any sums should be spent and what training staff should receive. That includes looking out for the dangers to which my noble friend referred.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, will the noble Baroness look again at the question put by my noble friend Lord Kilmarnock and at the figures that he gave,
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which were considerably above those that she stated for the cost of treatment? Will she assure the House that if my noble friend's figures are confirmed, more money will be available for the treatment of this possibly tragic epidemic?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the Government are constantly looking into the cost. They are also making available a great deal of money in the immediate present and looking into future needs to see what costings they will have to make.

Namibia: Judicial Proceedings
2.46 p.m.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they recognise the judicial system of Namibia as legitimate.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young): My Lords, we do not give specific recognition to judicial systems in other countries.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I am referring in this Question specifically to the trial of the eight political detainees which at the moment is suspended until February? Does she recall the letter that her honourable friend the Minister of State wrote in February of last year in which she included the sentence:
"It is not our practice to intervene in Namibia or elsewhere during the course of judicial proceedings".
The point that I should like the noble Baroness to elucidate is whether that constitutes a recognition by her Majesty's Government that the judicial proceedings taking place in Namibia are valid judicial proceedings and should be observed as such or whether they are in defiance of international law.
Baroness Young: My Lords, I make three points to the noble Lord in answer to that question. The question of recognition does not arise. As a matter of fact, a system of courts exists in Namibia as part of South Africa's administration of that territory. We do not recognise that South Africa has any right to continue to administer Namibia. I can confirm the point that my honourable friend Mrs. Chalker made. We do not intervene during the course of judicial proceedings in Namibia or elsewhere and that has been the policy of successive governments.
Lord Paget of Northampton: My Lords, does it matter in the least whether or not we recognise the judicial system of Namibia? Has that the smallest effect?
Baroness Young: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, it is a matter of principle.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, is there any reason at all in these circumstances, when Her

479
Majesty's Government do not recognise the legal system set up in this territory, why Her Majesty's Government should not make representations to the Government of South Africa on this matter? Secondly, can the noble Baroness say what progress is being made in the implementation of Security Council Resolution 435 and what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking in that direction?
Baroness Young: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we continually make clear our concern about human rights issues in Namibia to the South African authorities both privately and publicly, and we shall continue to follow the situation there closely. On the issue of Security Council Resolution 435, we are of course fully committed to this and we continue to support both the United States and the United Nations negotiations which are aimed at implementing that plan.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that her comments in reply to the first supplementary question of my noble friend Lord Hatch of Lusby are indeed to be welcomed? They were forthright and declared unequivocally that we in no way support the South African Government in their behaviour in Namibia and in particular in the judicial proceedings. However, all British Governments, although they may not intervene at the time of judicial proceedings, have never hesitated to condemn an outcome which they know has been rigged and fixed. This is probably an example of such an outcome, and I ask the noble Baroness whether she will consider that matter when these proceedings have been concluded.
Baroness Young: My Lords, when proceedings have been concluded, that will be a separate matter.
Lord Gisborough: My Lords, can my noble friend assure me that the same standards which are used in criticism of human rights and legal legitimacy in South Africa are applied to other countries around the world which have the same problems and which are equally worthy of such criticism?
Baroness Young: My Lords, yes. I can assure my noble friend that that is the case and that we have condemned violations of human rights wherever they may occur.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness how long the Government are prepared for the present situation in Namibia to continue? Can they not urge in the Security Council that a strong United Nations peacekeeping force should enter Namibia to take control of the situation.
Baroness Young: My Lords, as I indicated in answering the question of the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, we have supported both the United States and the United Nations in working towards the full implementation of Security Council Resolution 435. However, I confirm to the noble Lord that it would be quite wrong to suggest that we have some unique responsibility for achieving Namibian independence.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, may I return to the reply of the noble Baroness to my first supplementary question? Does this not leave Her Majesty's Government in a somewhat ambiguous position? She says, as did her honourable friend the Minister of State, that it is not the practice of the British Government to intervene during the course of judicial proceedings. However, if the Government do not recognise those judicial proceedings, surely now is the time to protest about the so-called judicial proceedings that are being used against the eight detainees.
Baroness Young: My Lords, I understood the noble Lord's point the first time he made it. I have given him an answer as a matter of fact concerning what the situation is and has been under successive governments.

Direct Broadcasting by Satellite: Advertising
2.52 p.m.
Lord Airedale: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can give an assurance that, when television programme contractors show programmes on direct broadcasting by satellite, the present permitted number of minutes of advertising in every hour will not be exceeded.
The Minister of State, Home Office (The Earl of Caithness): My Lords, it is the responsibility of the Independent Broadcasting Authority to direct programme contractors on the length and frequency of advertising breaks and similar matters in accordance with rules set down in Schedule 2 of the Broadcasting Act 1981. It will be for the IBA to decide how these rules should apply to the contractors for direct broadcasting by satellite.
Lord Airedale: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply so far as it goes. However, the Question asked for an assurance that the present number of minutes of advertising in every hour should not be exceeded. I did not gather that I had answer from the noble Earl.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the answer was the last sentence of my reply. It will be for the IBA to decide how these rules should apply to the contractors for direct broadcasting by satellite.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in Europe and in the United Kingdom cable television and direct broadcasting by satellite are clearly going to come about and that it would be most unwise at this juncture to inhibit the development in the United Kingdom by laying down firm rules and regulations concerning what can and cannot be done? The choice must lie with the viewers. If there is too much advertising, they will not look at it, and the people who are propagating that idea will obtain the answer quickly from that source.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I am glad to hear what my noble friend has to say, which confirms that the IBA has done a good job so far and doubtless will continue to do so.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the matter cannot be left in such a glib fashion? Is it not a fact that other countries will be interested in satellite broadcasting and that it will be essential for the Government to take a view as to the arrangements that can be made with other countries, including France, so that they do not infringe upon advertising time? Will they give guidance to the IBA, if that be necessary, that a certain amount of advertising is tolerable and a certain amount of advertising can go all the way round? There is a limit to both aspects.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord if he thought my answers were glib. They were not intended to be so. If the IBA seeks our advice, we shall be very happy to give it.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl will forgive me if I return to the point about the Government and the other countries involved having a need to obtain some sort of agreement on this matter.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, it was as a result of an Act of Parliament in 1981 that Parliament delegated this function to the IBA. If the IBA seeks our help, we shall be happy to give it.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, is it not the case that the number of minutes per hour allowed for commercial advertising over commercial stations at the moment are set by statute or at least incorporated in the licence? Can we be assured that the same allocation of time observed in present commercial licensing will be observed when the new channels come on stream?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the amount of advertising time is a matter of detail for the IBA to consider within the guidelines of the rules set down in Schedule 2 of the 1981 Act.
Lord Paget of Northampton: My Lords, are we to understand that the noble Earl is giving an assurance that satellite broadcasting will not be used for national purposes such as, for instance, enforcing sanctions against South Africa?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, no. I do not believe I said that at all.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, I declare an interest as a director of a company with an interest in the French satellite. Is the noble Earl aware that TVS will be the first direct broadcasting satellite to reach the United Kingdom? Will he therefore bear in mind the question asked by my noble friend Lord Mishcon about arrangements between governments for the allocation of advertising time and the restriction of advertising time so that a standard may be set at the outset?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I shall be happy to bear that in mind.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, did the noble Earl say in a previous answer that the Government have no obligation to give advice unless it is asked for?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I understood the question to be whether the Government would give advice and I answered, yes, if asked.
Lord Airedale: My Lords, do Her Majesty's Government accept that it is not for the IBA but rather for the Government to take a sounding to discover how much advertising is acceptable to people and to see that rules are drawn up in accordance with what people find acceptable?
The Earl of Caithness: No, my Lords, that is not the situation. In accordance with the Act passed through Parliament in 1981, it is a matter of detail for the IBA.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind the saying of an earlier Prime Minister in considering whether in this instance it is far better to wait and see?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I am grateful for that good advice from my noble friend.

Motor Cycle Noise Limits
2.58 p.m.
Lord Brougham and Vaux: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to reduce the allowable level of motor cycle noise.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, agreement was reached within the European Community last November on lower noise limits for new motor cycles. We intend to amend our regulations so as to make the new limits applicable to new machines registered in Britain from the earliest dates permitted by the agreement.
Lord Brougham and Vaux: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging reply. Can he tell me what other measures the Government have in mind for encouraging owners of existing machines to reduce the noise of defective silencers?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: Yes, my Lords. There are regulations governing the fitting and replacement of silencers which will apply progressively to an increasing number of motor cycles in use. In addition, my right honourable friend the Member for Christchurch has introduced a Private Member's Bill in the other place enabling the Secretary of State to make regulations controlling replacement of silencers at the point of sale. The Government very much welcome this initiative.
Lord Winstanley: My Lords, will the enforcement of the new limits be any more effective than the enforcement of the old limits, which seems to me to be non-existent?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the enforcement of the existing limits is by no means non-existent. In the last year for which I have statistics, there were 2,800 prosecutions for noise offences, of which 95 per cent. resulted in a conviction. The new regulations will make it easier to bring prosecutions because replacement silencers will have a mark on them and it will be very much easier for the police to see whether or not they are in order.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, did the noble Lord say that there were 28,000 prosecutions?
Noble Lords: No, 2,800.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, can the noble Lord be a little more precise about this matter? What proportion of that total relates to motor cycle noise; or is the noble Lord giving us a total? I am not quite sure that I understand him very clearly on that point.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the noble Lord obviously did not understand me very clearly. In the last year for which I have figures, there were 2,800 prosecutions for noise offences by motor cyclists.
Lord Strathcarron: My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that new motor cycle exhausts are already commendably quiet and that the difficulty lies with the replacement? The difficulty is that motor cyclists often cannot afford the very high prices charged by manufacturers for the official exhausts and have therefore to go to other sources. Those are the noisy exhausts. I am very pleased to hear that legislation is being prepared to make it illegal to sell an exhaust system that does not come up to the required standard.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, there is no reason why a motor cyclist has to buy an exhaust from the manufacturer of the motor cycle. The replacement exhaust could possibly be cheaper, but it must be as good in quality as the original.
Lord Brougham and Vaux: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether these new measures will cover second-hand machines as well as new machines?
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the new European Community directive covers only new motor cycles but-the new regulations and the new Bill that has been introduced will of course cover all replacement silencers.

Business
Lord Denham: My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 this afternoon my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement that is to be made in another place on rate support grant for 1987–88 and rate limitation.

Reverter of Sites Bill [H.L.]
3.3 p.m.
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the order of commitment be discharged.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Debtors (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
3.4 p.m.
The Lord Advocate (Lord Cameron of Lochbroom): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Some two years ago I was glad to be able to move the Second Reading of the measure which is now the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 1985. In doing so, I paid well-deserved tribute to the work of the Scottish Law Commission in producing the report on which that Bill was based. The Bill which we are considering today has a similar genesis and results from perhaps the largest and most intensive programme of work undertaken by the commission. This programme began in 1968, led through eight research reports and five consultative memoranda and culminated in the two-volume report published in November 1985. I should like to record here my appreciation of the commission's sterling work in producing the thorough and well-researched report on which the present Bill is based.
In addition, there was further public consultation thereafter on the commission's recommendations, in particular to seek views on those matters, such as the proposed debt arrangement schemes, where the commission had obtained on its own consultation a mixed reaction to its provisional proposals. We received most useful written comments from a wide range of bodies and individuals and my officials have had helpful continuing discussions, in particular with the Law Society of Scotland and the Society of Messengers-at-Arms and Sheriff Officers as well as with the Scottish Consumer Council. I am grateful to all those who have commented, whether to the Scottish Law Commission or more recently to me. The Bill which we are considering today has benefited considerably from these successive consultations.
The issues addressed by the Bill have long been considered of importance by Scottish legislators. For instance, to pick but one example, the Diligence Act 1661 noted that if promises, pactions, obligements and debts were not faithfully performed and satisfied there could be no trust and consequently no society intercourse and commerce at home. In recent years, concern has shifted to the harsh effect on consumer debtors of the diligence of poinding and warrant sale and I think it is widely recognised that reform here is long overdue. The present procedures in poindings and warrant sales are after all based on the Debtors (Scotland) Act 1838.

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I should perhaps explain that poinding and warrant sale is the procedure by which moveable goods (but not money) possessed by the debtor can be attached by the creditor. The goods are left in the debtor's possession until they are put up for sale by public auction, under a warrant of sale granted by the sheriff. The creditor is entitled to payment of his debt and expenses out of the proceeds of sale. If the goods are unsold because no bids above the values appraised at the poinding are made, the goods are delivered to the creditor in satisfaction of the debt. The diligence is carried out by a sheriff officer and some of the procedures are supervised by the sheriff. The Bill before the House this afternoon is therefore the first comprehensive reform of the law in this area since 1838 and is designed to usher in a new system of debt enforcement more suitable to the needs and expectations of a modern society.
It is perhaps a sobering thought that possibly most adults are in debt, since debt, in the broadest sense, is what one person owes to another. For instance, as the Scottish Law Commission pointed out, a very large number of Scottish households live in rented public sector housing and most owner-occupiers finance the purchase of their homes by a loan from a building society or other institution. The present Bill, however, is concerned with debt in the connotation of a debt which cannot be enforced until there has been obtained a court decree finding the debtor liable to pay a stated amount. The extract, or authenticated copy, of the court decree authorises diligence, diligence being the legal term used to denote primarily the methods of enforcing unpaid debts due under decrees of the Scottish courts.
I should emphasise that the Bill deals with the later formal stages of debt recovery. The earlier informal stage is the one at which the creditor, or an agent acting on his behalf, attempts to obtain payment. The research commissioned by the Scottish Law Commission indicated that the informal recovery procedures resulted in satisfactory arrangements for payment being made in the great majority of default debts. The later formal stages are, first, a court action for payment raised by the creditor; and, secondly, when following the court decree for payment there are further attempts at collection and, if necessary, the enforcement of the decree by diligence. The provisions in the Bill come into operation when the creditor has finally decided that informal arrangements will not secure payment and that there is no alternative to court proceedings.
Some of your Lordships may, I suppose, consider that credit is too readily available and that a restriction on the extension of credit would help to reduce the distress and social hardship resulting from indebtedness and debt recovery. But important as such issues are, they go far beyond the scope of the present Bill.
In its report the Law Commission set out what it sees as the two general objectives of a good system of enforcing debt by diligence. The first is that of effective enforcement: the provision of effective machinery in which creditors can have confidence and by which they can obtain payment of their debts. The second objective is debtor protection: to secure that within the
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constraints imposed by the need for an effective system of enforcing debts there are available procedures which protect debtors who are subject to diligence from undue economic hardship and personal distress. The Government entirely accept and endorse those two objectives. We share the view of the commission that people who are able to pay their legally binding debts should be required to do so.
It became apparent from the Scottish Law Commission's work that the present system of diligence fulfils the first objective of effective enforcement. The system is generally regarded by creditors as satisfactory. Critics of the system argued that warrant sales of household goods were uneconomic so far as the creditor was concerned. But that does not point to the abolition of warrant sales in the interests of creditors. Warrant sales must be seen as the final stage in what is often a protracted process of debt recovery. The proper measure of the efficiency of the diligence is not its yield in the relatively few sales which are held but the extent to which the potential threat of a warrant sale serves to elicit payment in the vast majority of cases in which settlement is reached without recourse to a sale.
The commission's consultations confirmed that there was widespread dissatisfaction with aspects of the present law and practice of poinding and warrant sales. Some of this dissatisfaction is, however, based on misunderstandings. It is a mistake to assume that the procedure is an anachronistic survival from earlier and harsher times and that debt enforcement procedure against moveable goods is peculiar to Scotland. The commission records that such procedures are permitted in every country of which they are aware and that in England and Wales such procedures are used relatively more than in Scotland. The commission suggests that differences in public attitudes on either side of the Border are probably due to differences in procedures. For example, in England sales are generally held in auction rooms and not, as in Scotand, in the homes of debtors.
The commission concluded that no alternative method of enforcement could be devised which would be both as effective and more socially acceptable than the poinding and warrant sale procedure. Accordingly, the Bill retains the procedure but makes major reforms which remove the most resented aspects of the procedure.
The commission, however, concluded that the present system does not meet the second objective of debtor protection. The evidence obtained suggests that most debtors subjected to diligence are unable, rather than unwilling, to pay the debt outright whether from income or savings and can only pay by instalments. At present debtor protection depends upon exemptions from diligence of certain assets or income; certain restraints on the use of poinding and sale procedures recently evolved by the courts; and statutory powers to grant instalment decrees in certain debt actions. The commission considered, and the Government agree, that these safeguards are inadequate.
The commission's consultations revealed, however, a wide range of different views as to what form safeguards for the debtor should take. In considering what the preferable option was the commission was rightly very conscious that new and reformed

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procedures must be cost-effective, making the most economical use of financial and manpower resources.
The Bill implements the commission's preferred option. This was for a system which allows the creditor to pursue his debt by court action and diligence, as under the present law, but permits the debtor to apply to the court for an order or orders controlling diligence. These new orders which the court can make to protect the debtor from the rigours of diligence include time to pay directions; time to pay orders and new types of order such as an order for the recall of a poinding in appropriate cases.
The reforms in the Bill relate principally to the two main diligences: first, the enforced sale of the debtor's goods, usually household goods, by the procedure of poinding and warrant sale; and, secondly, the arrestment or attachment of the debtor's money in the hands of a third party so that it can be paid over to the creditor in satisfaction of the debt. The Bill proposes that sales in debtors' houses be prohibited unless the debtor gives his written consent for the sale to be held in his house.
Poinded goods will normally be sent to auction rooms for sale. Arrestment of earnings is reformed and improved with the introduction of three new forms of continuous diligence which I shall describe later. Complementary to these reforms are the provisions in the latter parts of the Bill. These include improvements of the administration of officers of court—that is, Messengers-at-Arms in the Court of Session and sheriff officers in the sheriff court—who are instructed on behalf of creditors to operate the procedures for debt recovery.
Civil imprisonment is abolished for non-payment of tax penalties and rates. The existing different summary warrant procedures for rates and taxes are replaced by a uniform poinding procedure incorporating some of the reforms proposed for ordinary poindings. Debtors will be encouraged to make use of the new and reformed procedures by the provisions which will enable a debtor to be represented in proceedings before the sheriff by someone other than an advocate or a solicitor. Further, no court dues or fees are to be payable in connection with court proceedings under this legislation and an express obligation is laid on sheriff clerks to provide information to debtors about these court procedures.
Part I of the Bill provides the new arrangements with regard to time to pay directions and time to pay orders, extending the time which the debtor has to pay the debt. The Bill's provisions on time to pay directions considerably improve the present system of instalment decrees in sheriff court summary cause actions where the debt is under 1,000. Time to pay directions are to be available in the Court of Session or the sheriff court for debts under £10,000. These directions will allow payment either by instalments or by deferred lump sum. The court will have discretion as to whether or not to grant a direction; while the direction is effective it will be incompetent for the creditor to carry out diligence by way of, for example, a poinding and sale or an earnings arrestment. The court has power to vary or recall direction if it is satisfied that it is reasonable to do so. If the debtor fails to make payment by instalments the time to pay direction will lapse if on
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the day on which the instalment is due there are unpaid sums due of not less than the total of two instalments.
Time to pay orders are very similar to time to pay directions. Time to pay orders are obtained after decree for payment has been granted and after a charge—the formal demand for payment—has been served, provided that the diligence has not reached an advanced stage. These time to pay orders are only obtainable in the sheriff court and not in the Court of Session. On receiving an application for a time to pay order the sheriff makes an interim order sisting, or halting, diligence against the debtor.
The reforms of the procedure of poinding and warrant sale are contained in Part II of the Bill. As I have already said, the Government accept the commission's conclusion that no alternative method of enforcement can be devised which would be as effective and more socially acceptable than poinding and warrant sale procedure. The Bill therefore retains the procedure but makes a number of major reforms. I should like to highlight some of these reforms. The exemptions from poinding of household goods are to be extended to include, for example, children's toys, medical equipment, curtains and floor coverings. That is found in Clause 16. Officers of court executing poindings are not allowed to enter a house where there is either nobody present or only children under the age of 16 without having given at least four days' prior notice. That is set out in Clause 18.
Debtors are given greater opportunities to redeem goods at their appraised value, that is, the value that they would be likely to fetch if sold on the open market, as provided in Clause 21. Debtors are also given the right to apply to the sheriff to release items from the poinding on the grounds that their inclusion is unduly harsh by the provisions of Clause 23. A number of grounds are provided on which sheriffs can recall a poinding or, at a later stage of the procedure, refuse to grant a warrant for the sale of the poinded goods in terms of Clauses 24 and 35. A poinding is not to last for longer than one year unless extended to allow instalment payments to be made under the provisions of Clause 27. Particularly significant are the innovations with regard to the warrant sale itself which have the effect that sales of poinded household goods will normally take place in auction rooms without publicity which identifies the debtor, as is set out in Clauses 32 and 34.
Finally, poinding of goods owned by the debtor in common with a third party is to become competent, subject to provisions to safeguard the interest of the third party. as set out in Clauses 40 and 41. This provision is essential because of the presumption, which was introduced by the Family Law (Scotland) Act 1985, though not yet brought into operation, that goods in matrimonial homes are in common ownership.
Along with the procedure of poinding and warrant sale, the other most commonly used procedure once a court has granted decree for payment of a debt is that of arrestment against the debtor's earnings. An arrestment of earnings attaches a debtor's earnings due at the next pay day but does not affect the earnings due on later pay days. This results in two major defects in the procedure. The first is that repeated arrestments,

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for the expenses of which the debtor would be liable, may be needed to clear a debt. The second is that the proportion of an individual's earnings in any pay period which is exempt from arrestment for an ordinary debt—that is to say a debt other than maintenance—is too low and does not leave enough for the debtor's subsistence. If the arrestment is in respect of maintenance or rates, the whole pay is attached leaving the debtor with nothing.
To remedy these defects the Bill provides in Part III for the replacement of the present system by three new forms of continuous diligence against earnings. These are: earnings arrestments for ordinary debts; current maintenance arrestments for aliment and periodical allowance payable, for example, on divorce; and conjoined arrestment orders in cases where two or more creditors wish to arrest the debtor's earnings. I should add that the Bill does not affect the arrestment of funds or property other than earnings.
In the new form of earnings arrestment enforcing ordinary debts, the deduction from earnings is to be fixed by reference to the tables of deductions which are set out in Schedule 2 to the Bill. This procedure of fixed deductions has the advantage that it avoids the trouble and expense of having to apply to the court to fix the amount of deductions or to have a compulsory means inquiry. On every pay day the employer is required to deduct the appropriate sum from the debtor's net earnings. These deductions are much smaller than under the present law. For instance, net wages below £35 per week are totally exempt from arrestment. The Bill requires the employer who makes the deductions to pay them over to the arresting creditor. There is to be no need, as at present, for an action of forthcoming to be raised or a mandate to be obtained from the debtor to secure payment of the sums to the creditor.
Public concern about maintenance payments is focused not so much on the protection of debtors as on the interests of maintenance creditors. These are wives, former wives and children who are generally considered to be in greater need of assistance than other classes of creditors. Maintenance differs from other debts in that it is a continuing obligation to pay periodic amounts. These amounts will already have been fixed by the court at levels reflecting the debtor's ability to pay. Normally, therefore, it is appropriate that the whole of the maintenance instalments should be deducted from the debtor's earnings. The object of maintenance is current support and it is preferable to prevent arrears arising rather than to provide for their recovery when they do arise. The Bill therefore provides that a current maintenance arrestment attaches in each pay period the maintenance due for that period. The employer is obliged to make the deductions and remit them to the maintenance creditor. The maintenance creditor is entitled to apply for a current maintenance arrestment when a sum of not less than the total of three instalments of maintenance is unpaid.
With a Bill as large as the present one, I do not think that your Lordships will expect or indeed want a description of all the provisions of the Bill. I have spoken of three important sets of reforms which the Bill introduces with regard to time to pay arrangements, poinding and warrant sales, and the arrestment of earnings. Part IV of the Bill reforms the arrange-
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ments for the recovery of rates and taxes and in particular it abolishes civil imprisonment for failure to pay rates or any tax. I should also draw your Lordships' attention to the Bill's provisions with regard to officers of court. These are contained in Part V of the Bill.
Officers of court hold public office as either Messengers-at-Arms in the Court of Session or sheriff officers in the sheriff court. They are also independent contractors who receive instructions to execute diligence on behalf of creditors. An officer of court has a duty to act when instructed and cannot refuse to do so. His fees are laid down by rules of court, and he is subject to disciplinary authority. This independent, fee-paid contractor status is paralleled by the arrangements in the English High Court (the sheriffs officers) and in France. Views were put to the Scottish Law Commission that a system of salaried officers employed within the Scottish court service should be introduced. The commission was, however, of the view that the present system of fee-paid independent contractors should be retained.
But the Bill contains a number of provisions dealing with the regulation, appointment, training, supervision, control and discipline of officers of court. Regulations about these matters are to be made by the Court of Session after consulting a proposed new body—the Advisory Council on Messengers-at-Arms and Sheriff Officers. The sheriffs principal are to have the power, even in the absence of a specific complaint, to order an inspection of the work of sheriff officers.
The Court of Session is to have similar powers in relation to messengers-at-arms. The power to approve persons for appointment as messengers-at-arms and to discipline them is to be transferred from the Lord Lyon King-of-Arms to the Court of Session. It clearly emerged, however, from the consultations carried out by the Scottish Law Commission that the historic connection between the Lord Lyon and messengers-at-arms is highly valued. Accordingly, the Lord Lyon, on receipt of a Court of Session recommendation that a person should be appointed as a messenger, grants the applicant a commission. Similarly, in disciplinary proceedings, it will be the Lord Lyon who will act on the Court of Session's interlocutor suspending a messenger or depriving him from office. Finally, the Lord Lyon will be a member of the advisory council.
The Bill also contains important provisions further regulating debt collection by officers of court. As at present, officers will be prohibited fromenforcing debts due to themselves and this rule is to be extended to enforcement on behalf of members of their family, business associates and firms or companies in which they have a controlling interest. Officers are to be expressly prohibited from using their official designations when collecting debts before decree. They are to be obliged to seek authorisation from the sheriff principal before doing so in a private capacity or through a debt collection agency. However, collection of debts which have been constituted by court decree will be part of the official functions of officers of court.
It has been generally agreed for some while that the procedures by which creditors can enforce unpaid debts in Scotland need to be reformed. This Bill incorporates the necessary reforms based on the painstaking and intensive work of the Scottish Law

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Commission. An antiquarian may perhaps regret that the Bill repeals a long list of historic Acts, starting with the Diligence Act of 1503. However, all those concerned with achieving in the late twentieth century the twin aims of debtor protection and effective enforcement of debts in Scotland will, I am sure, accord the Bill the support which it justly deserves. I commend this Bill to your Lordships. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Cameron of Lochbroom.)
3.30 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, this Bill, as the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate said, is the Government's response to a very comprehensive and thorough review by the Scottish Law Commission of the problems of debt collection. If, as is the case, this is the first serious reform for the past 150 years, it is all the more welcome that it comes at last.
There are many ways in which we would hope to improve the Bill. The provisions regarding the changes in the law on arrestment of earnings are in general very welcome. This level of recovery was wholly ineffective and very expensive under the previous system where one had to arrest for each week's or month's payment as the wages became payable. With adequate safeguards, the recovery of debt by regular payments out of earnings is clearly the fairest and most painless method of achieving both justice for the debtor and justice for the creditor.
There is, however, a possible difficulty in the Bill as it is. If one creditor goes against a debtor by way of arrestment of his earnings at the same time as another creditor goes against the same debtor in the sheriff court or the Court of Session by the ordinary method of decree and gets an instalment decree, it may well happen that the instalment becomes impossible because the wages are being arrested and there appears to be no method of linking that, as the Bill is put forward by the Government.
It is also unfortunate, on the arrestment of earnings that the definition of "employer" is not wide enough to include the many people who are now technically self-employed, but in reality are people receiving regular pay for their work, whether they are labourers on a building site, bricklayers or share fishermen. It would be helpful, I suggest, if the definition could be extended to include the kinds of people who are really in the position of regular wage earners; otherwise they will not have the protection of Schedule 2 and all their earnings will be attachable.
In my view, of far more importance than the change in the arrestment—important and welcome though that is—is the fact that the Government have abandoned and ignored the Law Commission's recommendation regarding debt arrangement schemes. It is a common feature of the past 10 years—I had better not say seven years—or so that people have got into debt regularly and have difficulties, as the Law Commission found out. That is due in the main to their misfortune rather than their dishonesty. There is very useful work being done in the debt counselling schemes and there was recent publicity about Birmingham's debt counselling scheme. The debt arrangement scheme proposed by
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the Scottish Law Commission has a very great deal of sense, as one would expect from such a body, but, for some reason which the noble and learned Lord did not touch on, it has been ignored.
It is perhaps strange that the noble and learned Lord, having adopted, so to speak, three-quarters of the draft Bill by the Scottish Law Commission, and ignored the other quarter, did not tell the House why that was being omitted. The debt arrangement scheme provides a method for dealing, with the court's supervision, with the common situation where the debtor has more than one outstanding debt. The provisions regarding instalment payments which are to come into force are very welcome, but they only apply to the one debt.
The debt arrangement scheme put forward by the commission would deal with the situation where two or more creditors were chasing the one debtor who, through misfortune or illness or loss of employment, had not been able to pay. It would be able to give the court power to make arrangements that he would pay all the debts at once. That would have a great deal of sense in reducing the cost of diligence, reducing the rather unfortunate race that may occur between creditors to try to force payment out of the debtor, and no reason is put forward as to why that has been ignored.
The other major criticism is on the question of warrant sales. The retention of the warrant sale procedure is thought by the Government, and apparently also by the Law Commission, to be necessary. I suggest that with the changes in the arrestment of earnings, the need for warrant sales to sell household goods will diminish considerably. The warrant sales, as the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate pointed out, have caused considerable distress, especially in the case of sales in the house of the debtor. We on this side of the House are very glad to see that that has been dropped.
However, it is unfortunate and very much to be regretted that the Government have not gone the whole way and abolished the warrant sale of household goods. Because arrestment will be used in preference, the sale will now be used to recover the debts of the single parent, the sick, the person who has lost his job, the long-term unemployed and the small trader who cannot get his debts paid, because none of them can have his earnings arrested.
We are dealing, as the Law Commission has said, with the unfortunate and not with the dishonest. Why retain the warrant sale? If one looks at Clause 16 of the Bill, there is a massive list of articles which cannot be sold, and that is wholly good. The list includes clothing reasonably required for the debtor or members of his household; his implements, tools of trade; books or other equipment; medical aids; books required for education; children's toys; articles reasonably required for the care and upbringing of a child; bed or bedding; household linen; chairs or settees; tables; food; lights and light fittings; heating appliances; curtains; floor coverings; furniture; equipment or utensils used for cooking, storing or eating food, including not more than one refrigerator; articles used for cleaning, mending, or pressing clothes; articles for cleaning the house; furniture for storing clothing, bedding or household linen; articles used for safety in the dwellinghouse.

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There is not much left. It is not entirely clear why there is the special requirement of only one refrigerator, but no doubt at Committee stage we can go into that. It is difficult to see why, if somebody has a fridge-freezer, he is protected, whereas if he has the misfortune to have a freezer and a fridge as two separate units one of them has to go. One cannot imagine that the Government really think that debtors have multiple refrigerators in their houses. The only articles that I can see that are excluded for some reason—and perhaps there is a reason—are cupboards, sideboards or whatever one likes to call them for storing cups, saucers, cutlery and the like. For some reason, they can be attached and sold and no doubt advice can be given by citizens advice bureaux that if any such cupboard is used for storing food as well, then it is safe.
What is left? It appears to be only something of the nature of books, pictures, television, a video recorder or radio. I doubt whether many debtors in Easterhouse or Wester Hailes have expensive first editions or Impressionist paintings on their walls. The television set tends to be on hire purchase. What is the purpose of retaining the warrant sale for household goods for debtors? It would appear highly unlikely that anything very effective in the ordinary debtor's house would be caught by such a sale.
The cost is quite high, as revealed in the report. If there is to be a process of sale of household goods—and I suggest that there should not be—it should be one limited to a case where the debt excluding the expenses of diligence is over a substantial sum such as £500. No doubt the noble and learned Lord, when he comes to answer, will have to say that the Law Commission recommended the retention of the warrant sale, and I am aware of that. He will also say that there is no alternative—a phrase that we have heard from our sources. But there is. For a person who is earning there is the alternative of arrestment of his earnings. For others, there is sequestration. That is a real alternative if people have assets in their houses that are worth selling. The difficulty that has occurred concerns attempts to recover debts such as electricity bills when there is virtually nothing worth selling in the debtor's house.
In general, therefore, subject to the major criticism that there is the retention of the warrant sale and the ignoring of the recommendation of the debt arrangements scheme, we welcome the Bill.
3.43 p.m.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, I should like to apologise first for the absence of Lord Wilson of Langside who, as the noble and learned Lord Advocate will appreciate, has considerable experience in this field. He spoke to me on the telephone and promised—this may not be to the delight of the Lord Advocate—that by the time we reach the Committee stage of the Bill the Campsie Hills will be thawed out and he will be able to make the journey to offer professional and wise comment on these proceedings.
We, on these Benches, welcome the general intention of the Bill. In our society, more and more people are encouraged to incur debt, and the provision of easy credit facilities is advertised daily on our
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television screens. It is not unusual for many people to incur debt and this causes great social hardship. Therefore, we welcome the terms of the Bill that make the arrangements for recovery of debt more simple and perhaps more humane.
We very much welcome the new arrangements, particularly for the arrestment of earnings and the fact that this has been made a much more simple procedure. While we have some doubt regarding what the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, said about the abolition of warrant sale, we welcome the arrangements for warrant sales whereby the debtor will have these conducted outside his home.
I have had only one experience in my life of sitting on a jury. It was a case where the sheriff's officer had entered the house to sell off some of the furniture for recovery of a small debt. The item that he chose, which I believe was a sideboard, the debtor claimed belonged to his daughter, who was awaiting occupation of a local authority house. This was the item that the sheriff's officer felt was of greatest value in the home, and he proceeded to sell it. The debtor proceeded to resist, and found himself in court for assault.
Having listened to the case, I must say that the debtor appeared to me to be guilty, although there was great provocation. These warrant sale officers proceeded from one house to another in the course of the day and sold off sideboards, television sets or whatever, in the homes of debtors. totalling perhaps eight of 10 a day. Your Lordships can readily understand the humiliation and the distress caused in many homes as a result of that procedure. I am delighted that under the Bill there will be an improvement in that situation regarding the items that may be sold outside the home of the debtor.
As to the debt arrangement schemes, it is noted that the Bill does not accept the draft Bill provisions of the Law Commission, paragraphs 14 to 42. Like the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, I should be delighted to hear why that is so. Is it because of the cost, or the administrative burden on the sheriff's officer?
In general, therefore, we, on these Benches, very much welcome this attempt to make more sensible and more humane arrangements for debt collection in Scotland. This is long overdue. I can promise your Lordships that the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, will be giving detailed attention to the Bill, which I hope will be helpful.

Rate Support Grant 1987–88
3.47 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Skelmersdale): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment about the rate support grant settlement for 1987–88 and selective rate limitation for local authorities in England. The Statement is as follows:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a Statement about the rate support grant settlement for 1987–88 and selective rate limitation for local authorities in England.

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"When I made my announcement about relevant and total expenditure on 16th December, I said that no further rate support grant reports could be made until validating legislation had been approved by Parliament to allow decisions to be taken in line with the practice which had hitherto been adopted. I also said that I would make a further announcement about rate support grant when the House returned in January. I am today announcing my firm intentions for the 1987–88 settlement for England and for the supplementary reports for 1986–87 and 1985–86. These intentions are based on the powers I am taking in the Local Government Finance Bill. Copies of the explanatory material and the rate limits proposed in that Bill are being sent to local authorities today and are available in the Library and Vote Office. Authorities will be able to plan their budgets and rates for 1987–88 with confidence. I shall make the relevant reports, and designated authorities will be notified of their rate and precept limits immediately the Local Government Finance Bill receives Royal Assent.
"The consulation which has preceded the 1987–88 settlement has been much more extensive than in previous years. I have considered very carefully the comments which the local authority associations have made to me and the many representatons received from individual local authorities. I do not intend to make any major changes to my proposals of 3rd December.
"I deal first with the main features of the 1987–88 settlement. Since 3rd December I have received further information on capital allocations for 1987–88 and about some authorities' budgets for 1986–87. This information has been taken into account in the figures I am announcing today. The figures also take into account expected higher spending by some rate and precept limited authorities to reflect the provisions of the Local Government Finance Bill. The consequence of these changes is to increase slightly the grant entitlements of most local authorities.
"The aggregate of Exchequer grant to authorities will be set at the level I announced in July—£ 12,842 million, which is an increase of over £1 billion or 9 per cent. over the level included in the settlement for the current financial year.
"My estimate of aggregate total expenditure in 1987–88 is £24,703 million. Provision for local authority current expenditure will be set at £25,251 million; this is 13 per cent. more than at settlement last year and £40 million higher than previously proposed to take account of the later information. In addition, the Goverment will, as the House knows, make available additional provision and grant when there is a settlement on teachers' pay which meets our requirements on cost, pay structure and duties.
"There are plenty of opportunities for authorities to reduce their expenditure; for example, by putting out services to competitive tendering or by implementing the many savings identified by the Audit Commission. I intend therefore that the aggregate of authorities' grant-related expenditure assessments should not be uplifted by the full
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increase in expenditure provision but should be held broadly steady in real terms.
"I intend to specify the same principles for GREs as were proposed in the 3rd December consultation paper: the most significant change from 1986–87 is that the police GRE will be distributed on the basis of police establishments.
"I intend that the slope of the grant related poundage schedule will stay the same as this year. This will provide an incentive for authorities to restrain their expenditure.
"As usual there will be arrangements to limit the impact of year on year changes on individual authorities grant entitlements. It is my intention that there should be a limit on block grant losses of 7p at ratepayer level and a limit of 12p on gains.
"In July I announced my intention to introduce legislation which would provide local authorities with greater certainty about their grant entitlement. A Bill will be introduced shortly to abolish the arrangements known as grant recycling whereby grant not claimed is redistributed to all authorities. In future an authority's grant will depend on its own expenditure and not on the expenditure of all other authorities. At the same time, the abolition of grant recycling will mean a tougher regime for high spending authorities which will no longer receive a paradoxical and uncovenanted benefit through recycling.
"Local authorities can claim the full amount of grant if they spend in line with the settlement spending assumption. We have increased the amount of Exchequer grant by over £1 billion for next year, and authorities have a very clear choice about whether to be prudent and claim their entitlement or to spend up and lose grant.
"I shall make the third supplementary report for 1985–86 and the first supplementary report for 1986–87 when I make the main rate support grant report. It is my intention that the supplementary report for 1985–86 will adjust grant to take account of provisional outturn expenditure and certain changes in education pool contributions. Most authorities have brought their spending closer to target, and as a result £385 million of grant so far withheld for 1985–86 will be paid out. The supplementary report for 1986–87 will distribute the block grant underclaim of some £618 million consequent upon the estimates of total expenditure received from authorities on or before 19th December. My predecessor guaranteed that at least £500 million of grant would be recycled in the first supplementary report for 1986–87. This report will therefore honour that guarantee.
"I now turn to the authorities selected for rate limitation in 1987–88. The House will know from my Statement on 16th December and from yesterday's debate on the Second Reading of the Local Government Finance Bill that rate limitation is to be dealt with—for 1987–88 only—in accordance with the terms of the proposed legislation.
"The department is today writing to the 20 high spending authorities selected for rate limitation, informing them individually of the rate limit figure

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which flows from the Local Government Finance Bill and my intention for rate support grant. Each of these councils will therefore be able to set its rate in good time before 1st April within the figure being notified to it.
"In the case of the 20 joint authorities which are automatically selected for precept limitation under the Local Government Act 1985, departments with responsibility for those authorities will be writing to them with similar information about the precept limits produced by the formulae in the Bill.
"The present system of local government finance is short on accountability and long on complexity. Our Green Paper proposals will replace it. While the present system lasts, I commend this settlement to the House as the best that can be achieved. Prudent and responsible local authorities which contain their expenditure can keep rate increases low. The Government are providing more than an extra £1 billion in grant. How much rates will rise is for local authorities; they have the opportunity to keep the rates low this year. If authorities choose to spend high it will be their fault that the rates go up. In the profligate high spending authorities ratepayers will benefit considerably from the important protections provided by rate limitation."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Baroness David: My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for repeating the Secretary of State's Statement, the fourth Statement that he has made on rate support grant since the begining of last autumn and now. It is only because of the Government's incompetence and ineptitude that this rate support grant Statement is arriving in January, which is so late, and that the Statement cannot be given effect to until the present Local Government Finance Bill becomes an Act.
Although the Statement says that authorities will be able to plan their budgets and rates with confidence, one wonders a little about that statement. We in this House will have to look carefully at the Local Government Finance Bill when it comes to us because we must hope that no further bad and incompetent legislation gets through.
I understand that the grant that the Government will provide to local authorities will remain at about 46.4 per cent. As there is no further cut, I hope that that means that the Government realise the validity of what we have all been saying about the need for local authority expenditure and services.
Of the extra £1 billion in cash which I think is mentioned about three times, is it not the case that almost half that a aditional £1 billion will go to the Treasury and not to the local authorities because of the abolition of grant recycling? When Mr. Baker was Secretary of State he praised grant recycling and thought it good. It now seems that it is bad. A Bill is to be brought in to abolish it. I should like to ask the Minister when that Bill will appear and whether it will be entirely about grant recycling or whether it will contain anything else.
From paragraph 17 it seems that the Secretary of State accepts that rates will rise. He says that how
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much rates will rise is a matter for local authorities. That seems to assume that they probably will rise. I hope it means that he at last recognises the needs of the recipients of local authorities services.
There are even more rate-limited authorities than before. One can only feel sympathy for them. At the beginning of the last paragraph the Statement says:
"The present system of local government finance is short on accountability and long on complexity".
We can agree about that, but I must say that it is this Government who have produced the present system. It was the 1980 Act which started the system. There have been Rates Acts since which have made the system even more complex. The Government alone must take the blame for the complexity of the present system which has caused so many troubles. We can only hope that they may be resolved.
4 p.m.
Baroness Stedman: My Lords, from these Benches we also should like to thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. We accept that what he is doing and has done is illegal until the new Act is on the statute book and that he told us in the Statement in December that he would be giving early notification to the authorities for the next financial year. We were told in the summer that we were going to have an earlier RSG settlement; yet this is the third lot of proposals that have come forward and the actual settlement is going to come later than ever.
As the noble Baroness said, the Minister himself admitted in the Statement that the local government finance system is short on accountability and long on complexity; but the frequency and the complexity of these Statements do not allow one to give a thoughtful response off the cuff at such short notice as this.
The Statement says that the consequence of the changes is to increase slightly the grant entitlements to most local authorities. The Minister's colleague in another place has been under pressure from MPs of his own party from the shire counties. Do these proposals now ameliorate the effect on some of those shire counties? If so, is it just that the cake has been cut into rather differently shaped slices? Again, if so, at whose expense is that? Who is paying for any increase that other people may get? Whatever the answers, the uncertainty still means that the shire counties will have to levy higher rates than other authorities simply because they are the first to have to set the rate.
I regret that the Minister is abolishing grant recycling, which means the money being returned to the Treasury instead of being spent on the local government services for which it was originally intended. However, I am pleased to note that the Government are honouring their earlier guarantee that at least £500 million of grant would be recycled for 1986–87 and indeed that that total is now £618 million.
I am sad that the Minister has gone ahead with imposing rate limitation on 20 authorities. Twelve of them are London boroughs with many problems, and others including Gateshead, Newcastle, North Tyneside and Middlesbrough, are all areas of very high unemployment and in special need of help from their local authority services.

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Finally, can the Minister, hand on heart, say that this new Bill which is just starting its progress through another place really has got the sums right this time and that until local government finance is reorganised properly we shall be able to proceed with some steady progress?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Baronesses for their rather cool reception of this Statement, which, as both have noted, is the fourth we have had on this subject since the end of October. I think it would be fair to point out that the intentions of my right honourable friend were strictly honourable and the first Statement was indeed considerably earlier than it has been in any previous year. The fact that new information came in made the Statement of 3rd December necessary.
Baroness David: My Lords, may I interrupt the Minister for a moment? Is it not the case that it was not only changes of information that came in but that there was a slight switch to make his friends in the Conservative authorities slightly happier?
Lord Skelmersdale: No, my Lords; I do not think I can accept that. What my right honourable friend did, as the chairman of Hertfordshire County Council made clear in early December, was listen to the views of local authorities and local authority associations, which of course the 1980 Act fully expected him to do. That is why it contained proposals for him so to do. The Local Government Finance Bill had its Second Reading in another place yesterday and we will get on to it in due course. I have no doubt that your Lordships will have a certain amount to say on it then. However, I just make the point that I made in a Statement shortly before we rose for the Christmas Recess. The whole objective of that Bill is to validate the status quo and to put back the law to what everybody, including the local authorities themselves, thought it was.
The noble Baroness, Lady David, made the surprising assertion that most of the £1 billion extra money which the Exchequer has found for local government finance this year will go to the Treasury because of the abolition of grant recycling. There is absolutely no need for that money to go anywhere. If local authorities spend responsibly there will be no need for them to lose any grant.
The noble Baroness also suggested that the Statement made it clear that rates would rise. It is inevitable that in a period of inflation, albeit the very low rate of inflation that we are enjoying at the moment, if local authorities decide to inflate by the standard rate of inflation then rates will rise slightly. But taking a council at random—Cheshire County Council, for example—the settlement spending assumption on which this Statement is based is a rise of 5¼per cent., whereas a possible basis for spending in line with inflation may well be 3¾per cent. for the next financial year.
If Cheshire spends at the level of the settlement spending assumption it would be entitled to block grant at £f 112÷6 million. If, on the other hand, it spent in line with the inflation assumption it would receive block grant off 116÷9 million. The precept increase for
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Cheshire on those two figures would be 5÷6 per cent. and 1÷5 per cent. respectively. So, as noble friends, right honourable friends and honourable friends have said countless times before me, the amount of rate increase is entirely in the hands of the local authority concerned.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, who recognised that the Statement fulfils the pledges given in the earlier Statement of 3rd December. She is of course quite right. However, she suggested that the capping, for example, of some of the London boroughs and some of the inner-city areas was necessary only because they have particular great problems with the homeless, unemployment and so on. But that is exactly the reason why grant-related expenditure assessments are made, and the grant-related expenditure assessments take account of those particular and peculiar problems. What those local authorities are saying is that in their view the GRE assessments are not adequate for their particular problem. That is an argument they could well have with the department, but it is not a sufficient reason for being high spenders because also very often they are bad financial managers.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, in view of what has been said as to the cool reception, might it not be appropriate to the climate if I added a somewhat warmer note? Is my noble friend aware that some of us are delighted to hear about the end of grant recycling? It has always seemed wholly illogical that some local authorities should benefit simply as a result of the misbehaviour of others, and where money has been forfeited by a particular local authority it is surely common sense that it should not be distributed to others but should, as is now proposed, revert to the Treasury. Is my noble friend aware that some of us regret that even half the previous rate of grant recycling is to be allowed to continue even for one year? The whole thing is a nonsense and the sooner it ends the better.
Has my noble friend any objection to giving the list of the authorities who are being rate capped this year? It is perhaps a little unsatisfactory to leave it with the noble Baroness opposite saying—I am sure rightly—that a number of London boroughs are involved. This is an area where uncertainty would be unfortunate. Perhaps my noble friend could give us the list.
On rate capping, is he aware of the fact that many people realise the reason why some of these authorities which are rate capped are areas of very difficult conditions is simply that they have been raising the rates over the years to a point that has discouraged enterprise and has discouraged people from setting up businesses in these high-rated areas, and thereby have aggravated their problem? Is my noble friend aware that there is a sensible view that only by restraining the level of their rates can an effective attack be made on their very real problems?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, not for the first time I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter for his support of the abolition of grant recycling. Yes, quite clearly it is an absolute nonsense if, on the one hand, a particular local authority can

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lose grant because of overspending and then receive some of that loss back as a kind of windfall gain later in the year, or indeed the following year.
My noble friend asked me for a list of the rate-capped authorities. They are as follows: Newcastle upon Tyne, Camden, Greenwich, Hackney, Islington, Lambeth, Lewisham, Southwark, Haringey, Basildon, and Thamesdown. The new selected authorities are: Sheffield, Gateshead, North Tyneside, Tower Hamlets, Brent, Hounslow, Newham, Middlesbrough, and Brighton.
Finally, yes, I agree with the last point that my noble friend made—namely, that rate capping will help very hard-pressed ratepayers in these areas and will also help to encourage local authorities to have better financial management of their affairs.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, I appreciate that within the Statement there is provision for additional moneys that will be made available for the teachers' pay settlement when the teachers' remuneration Bill has gone through this House. That is anticipating that it will go through this House in its present form. However, may I ask the Minister regarding the 1986 education Act what additional moneys have been made available to implement the provisions within that Act, which demand quite a lot of additional expenditure by local authorities?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the Government will make available substantially more provision and grant for a settlement on teachers' pay which meets our requirements on pay structure and duties whenever that may occur. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education's announcement of 30th October said that £183 million grant in respect of £460 million expenditure would be available for 1987–88. For 1986–87 the respective figures were £51 million grant and £101 million provision. The House will therefore see clearly that it is expected that this current settlement will mean a substantial increase in funding.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, may I go on to ask: what about the 1986 Act?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, at a quick glance at the noble Lord's question I am not aware of any additional expenditure due to the passing of that Act. However, I shall have clearly to look into this further and write to the noble Lord.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, thank you.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, may I raise one brief point with the Minister? It is not a criticism of what he has said so far. Is it not a fact that the present prolonged severely inclement weather that we are suffering can blow sky-high the financial predictions of local authorities' expenditure in the current financial year and in the preparations for their budget next year? While I know that there at present are some statutory provisions for them to raise funds to deal with this problem, bearing in mind that the predictions from the weather people are that this will be a very
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prolonged spell the sums of money involved could well be astronomical. May I ask the Minister whether he will urge the Secretary of State, when the local authorities have to come to him regarding this matter, to deal with it in as sympathetic a manner as he possibly can?
4.15 p.m.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, as far as I am aware, such severe weather payments, to which I think the noble Lord is referring, are paid for from the centre and not through the grant entitlement. My honourable friend the Minister for Social Security has just announced in another place, that for this week only the payments will be made to all in the qualifying groups—that is, those over 65 years old or families with a child or children under two years. This is not dependent on what happens to the weather this week.
There has been a certain amount of speculation in the press. But of course what should be said is that what used to be a discretionary payment is now a statutory right and the procedures for claiming this have been simplified.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, may I briefly draw attention to the second sentence in paragraph 17 of the Statement which needs clarification and probably also qualification? Dealing with the present system of local government finance, the Statement says:
"Our Green Paper proposals will replace it."
However, it is the case, is it not? that a Green Paper is a consultative document whereas a White Paper is a statement of proposed Government policy. It would not normally—unless there is a change—be possible for Green Paper proposals to replace the present system.
Will the noble Lord make plain what is intended? Is it intended that the Green Paper proposals, after due consultation, will replace it? That seems to me to be the right way to put it.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the House will know that the Green Paper proposes—and I use the noble Lord's word—to make the grant system much simpler. Once the proposed reforms are implemented the new system will ensure that every pound increase in spending means a £1 increase in local domestic taxation. Grant entitlements will no longer depend on spending—whether of that authority or any other. However, I take the point that primary legislation will be needed for this and there will be no doubt an enormous amount of discussion in both Houses, and indeed outside them, before such an Act can reach the statute book.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, all the noble Lord needs to do is to confirm that Green Paper proposals have no finality and therefore this sentence is wrong. Will he therefore say that the proposals in the Green Paper, as they are, will not be implemented but that proposals after the Green Paper has been discussed will be implemented?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, all I can do is to confirm that what are in the Green Paper are proposals, and proposals they will remain until they get on to the statute book.
Baroness David: My Lords, may I correct something that the Minister said when he was responding to what I had said? He said that I suggested that more than half of the £1 billion extra would go to the Treasury. I did not say that. I said that almost half might, and I was using a paper which was produced by Brian Tanner, the principal negotiator for English rate support grant for local authorities, in which he said:
"If there were a general 3 per cent. overspend (as has been suggested by the local authority side on Grants Working Group) because of demographic pressures, pay inflation and increases in capital financing costs, an estimated £400 million of grant would be withdrawn".
The figure of £400 million is getting on for half a billion. If there were not any grant moneys to be recycled there would be no need to abolish the grant recycling in a new Bill. Is the Minister not expecting that some amount of that £1 billion will go to the Treasury?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the point is that if any of that money goes to the Treasury, it will be the local authority's own fault. If local authorities spend at the generous level provided by the Government, they can claim the full amount of grant. This is what I would hope they would find themselves able to do.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, I apologise to the Minister for not hearing the first couple of sentences of his Statement. Can he confirm that local authorities will not get the cash to which they are entitled under the rate support grant proposals until the Bill currently going through the other place has gone through its procedures there and here? If that is so, is it not an arrogant assumption on which to base the rate support grant settlement, when that Bill includes many matters other than the immediate issue about the illegality of the previous rate system which will be contentious when they come here? Can the Minister confirm that that is what he is saying and allow us to draw our own conclusions from that?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the Statement which I have just read out is not the rate support grant report for 1987–88; it is a statement of my right honourable friend's firm intentions. One of the points in the Bill is that my right honourable friend should not be allowed to take any further considerations into account after, I think, 16th December 1986. It may well be that there will be considerable discussion on this point both in another place and in your Lordships' House. However, the auguries—if I may put it like that—make the intentions in the Statement as positive as they currently can be.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, may I then ask the Minister whether this is not a settlement but a statement of intent?
Lord Skelmersdale: It is, my Lords, in my right honourable friend's own words, his firm intentions, yes.

Debtors (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
4.22 p.m.
Debate on Second Reading resumed.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: My Lords, I think the moment has come when we may return to the Debtors (Scotland) Bill which has been postponed for almost an hour for questions. That is not to say the questions are not very important indeed.
I cannot claim to be an authority on the Bill but I have had the opportunity of discussing it with the Lord Advocate. I should like to give it my wholehearted support. No doubt a Bill coming in the year 1986, replacing a Bill brought out 150 years ago, has some very important significance for us all today. I think that this Bill is one which we can claim has that importance.
There are one or two points I should like to mention which I believe to be important in the Bill. Clause 16 gives a comprehensive list of articles which cannot be sold unless a debtor agrees. The noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, detailed those and I think he was right to do so. I am glad that the debtor can retain those items because they are essential to family life.
I also think that it is important that a debtor can ask for time to pay an order if it is more or less than a certain amount because I consider that would also be a safeguard for the family. I think not only of the debtor and creditor but of the effect that these debts could have on family life, which might be very significant and very important. This Bill recognises that.
I also think that Clause 18, which states that an officer of the court cannot enter a house which has children under 16 unless the debtor agrees, is also important. Clause 21 states that a debtor can buy back articles if he pays the value. That is also a good point. I think that Clause 23, which releases the debtor from payment if it is unduly hard on him, is also something to which we can agree.
The sheriff can refuse a warrant to sell and that will also be of help to the debtor. It may sound as though I am in favour of the debtor, but I am thinking only of the family if very severe conditions were put on these cases. It is important too that a warrant sale may take place only if the goods can be removed by an officer and sold at auction. The object in the Bill to enable a creditor to get his own goods back without undue hardship is also an important point.
The Bill is obviously highly technical and one which our law authorities have carefully thought out. It has been dealt with great care by the Lord Advocate. I listened to his speech and thought it extremely interesting. I am sure that the House will accept the Bill, and I hope very much that during our further discussions we may learn more about it and perhaps make alterations if it seems they are valuable and will improve the Bill. I support the Bill very strongly.
4.28 p.m.
Lord Ross of Marnock: My Lords, I think that we should be grateful for the work of the Law Commission in Scotland. It has produced a very comprehensive report. It took a long time, and as a

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prelude had to consider various inquiries and summaries of the trends in relation to debt in Scotland. I was a little bit staggered when it stated that we all are now debtors. It used to be that in Scotland we took great pride in paying our bills, but when one thinks of it, rates, rents and mortgage are paid in arrears. The same applies to the plastic money which most of your Lordships use in order, when you can, to get from Scotland to this place probably; and so that is perfectly true.
One of the things which worries me is that the most up-to-date statistics we have from the Law Commission are for 1983. Having seen one or two programmes about the ease with which credit can be given, particularly to young people, I wonder whether we should not be rather alarmed at the present-day statistics for debt. A television programme highlighted the case of a fairly young girl getting into debt to the tune of £18,000. I find that incredible. The effectiveness of our new arrangements for diligence adds to this to a certain extent. Firms can say, "We can get it back all right and we can use the courts".
It would have been interesting to have heard the views of the Law Commission about the changes because they took into account the social life, but mainly the historical social life in respect to the law of diligence. It is a pity that they could not have waited a little longer. We may need to consider, although we certainly could not do it in this Bill, making it more difficult for people to be able to get credit.
We are all grateful for the Bill. It is the first comprehensive Bill since the collection of Bills that started in Scotland way back in the 1500s. From my time in another other place, I recall all sorts of Bills being brought forward by all sorts of people to try to ease the situation in respect of arrestment of earnings. I remember the work of Archie Manuel. There was also the work, at a time of no limit to the arrestment of earnings, of George Lawson and Jimmy Dempsey on warrant sales. This was part of social life in Scotland.
I have to thank the Government for bringing forward a Bill at this time of the year that takes me into the Burns area. I remember on one occasion, when people in Scotland were thinking about reciting Tam o' Shanter, we had a Bill that provided a fine and followed that up by something even worse for being drunk in charge of a horse. Without that, we could not have referred to the poem by Burns.
Here we are again with a reminder of Burns.
I've notic'd, on our laird's court-day,
(An' monie a time my heart's been wae),
Poor tenant bodies, scant o' cash,
How they maun thole a factor's snash:
He'll stamp an threaten, curse an' swear
He'll apprehend them, poind their gear;
While they maun staun', wi' aspect humble
An' hear it a', an' fear an' tremble!
That happened within Burns' own family, the poinding of the gear.
I am glad that the Law Commission reminded us of the pronunciation as well as the spelling of poinding. The legal antiquarian would be pleased, I think, that we managed to keep the Lord Lyon in the picture somewhere but in muted regard. We must be grateful, however, for the recognition that simplification was
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required. This may require speeding up. In considering the drafts we have been given about the approach to debt, let us be clear first that most of this diligence—about 85 per cent.—relates to personal, debt rather than commercial debt. It is the same in relation to the final aspect of the warrant sale. It applies to somebody's personal wellbeing and the sale of their goods.
The length of time between the various stages, the informal approach—by a commercial company, a local authority an electricity board or perhaps by public authority—is a long process. What surprises me —to take rates as an example—is the shrinkage of numbers of people involved. In Scotland, we have figures relating to 1980 from Strathclyde which covers half the population of Scotland. Summary warrants were granted in respect of 38,500 rate defaulters. But, by the time the end of it was reached, only seven warrant sales were executed in respect of seven householders.
One matter that worries me is that we shall have many more people liable for rates if a certain rather preposterous Bill goes through this House. Every youngster who has left school and who is not undergoing full time education will be liable to rates. So far as I can understand the Bill, as it has not come our way, the parent, or in the terms of the Bill "the responsible person" in the household, will be responsible for that. However, I do not think that the whole thing will work at all. In a family of four, the father may have to collect £700 or £800 from his own family to pay the rates. These are people who do not pay them now. Who will be in debt? It will be the responsible person. A young person who is living alone or is a student will be paying himself.
This complementary Bill will be important. I wonder whether the Government have thought how it will play its part in the new system of rate collection and who will be left with the small number of debtors being subjected to warrant sales. It is something we have to think about. I am surprised and disappointed that the Government have not immediately taken power to get rid of warrant sales or at least to get rid of them later. As my noble friend Lord Morton suggested, there are alternatives which, together with the improved debt arrangements that the Government are making, suggested by the Law Commission, could further reduce warrant sales. I shall be told that according to the figures we already have, there were at the second-last stage about 20,000 cases and eventually only 470 actual executions of warrant sales. Starting with a figure of 68,000 there are degrees of debt. By the time the whole process is gone through, which is quite lengthy, there are only 484 warrant sales. That was in 1982–1983. It should be admitted that this was double the number in 1979.
In relation to the 20,000, it is admitted by the Law Commission, and surely by the Government too, that it might be discovered that there was not enough in the house to be realised from the warrant sale to pay the debt and that, taking into account the cost, the whole thing is dropped. We could have taken a further step and said that we wanted to get rid of warrant sales altogether as quickly as possible. It is part of the history of working class life and everyone who has been in another place has come across incidents of

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peoples' furniture being taken out, put on the street and sold there. All the neighbours knew. I think the word used by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, was correct. There was humiliation and embarrassment, and not just for the immediate family. As working class people tend to live in the same area their parents suffered the humiliation of this as well. Little was realised or would be realised from sales in the auction halls. Anyone who knows anything about what is sold in auction halls understands that the return from sales is paltry, and the greatest thing is the embarrassment to the people concerned. I should have liked to have seen that aspect removed altogether.
I am worried too about rising rates and rents and the number of owner occupiers who are being pressed and encouraged by the Government, with the rather cheap capital sums to be paid over for local authority houses, who have had to forgo and get rid of their houses. Once again, the Government are lending themselves to people taking over burdens of debt with which they cannot keep up. Unemployment comes—and, my goodness!, it has come in Scotland. It is the poorest of the poor who will be subjected to the eventual warrant sales, and many of them that go forward do not in any way reach the required level.
So the Bill is an improvement. It is comprehensive and the arrestment of wages is equally important in respect of what can be done. But when you come down to it, we have to draw up a Bill to say, "You will not take children's toys out and sell them." Do we really mean that? I wish that the Government would think again about this and would get rid of the warrant sales and the humiliation and despair of that kind of thing. I do not think that the warrant sale is a necessary deterrent for the 20,000 who have reached the stage of being warned through the second stage of diligence. There are other ways and when you consider the people who are involved—the unemployed and the single parent families, as the noble Lord, Lord Morton, suggested—I do not think it is right. So we are grateful for what has been done in respect of the Bill; but I think we could have gone a little more courageously forward.
4.41 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and generally for the welcome that they have given the Bill. Obviously I look forward to the Committee stage. I think the noble Lord, Lord Morton, recognised that some of the matters he raised were ones which could figure in Committee. I was a little amused at one point where the noble Lord made reference to the exemptions in Clause 16, observing that, as he was no doubt well aware, the Bill is based on the draft which the Law Commission itself proposed. I think he will find that that clause is in almost exactly the form in which the Law Commission put it forward. But, as he said, the Law Commission may be wrong, so we may talk about refrigerators, sideboards and cupboards in Committee.
It is clear that both the noble Lord, Lord Morton, and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, were concerned about the absence of a proposal for debt arrangement, and I accept that there is no provision in the Bill for
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that. However, it is important to have in mind that the scheme applied in the case, and only in the case, of a debtor with several debts but not enough assets to make bankruptcy procedures worth while. It was a scheme which was to be operated by an administrator, such as as sheriff clerk appointed by the sheriff to arrange for the regular payment of the debtor's debts to his various creditors, normally over a period of three years. I have to say that the Law Commission itself noted that on consultation there was a mixed reaction to that proposal.
The principle reason why the Government decided not to introduce the procedure was that its complexity and likely administrative costs would have far outweighed the benefits to the few debtors who would have been eligible. Furthermore, the scheme would have been a voluntary one and it is likely that a significant number of debtors would default at some point in the life of a debt arrangement scheme, because of the high level of self-discipline required of them. Therefore the Government concluded that in those circumstances there was no substantial advantage to be gained from acceptance of the proposal.
The noble Lord, Lord Morton, raised the question of the proposals so far as concerns arrestment of earnings and in particular the possible conflict between an existing earnings arrestment and a subsequent instalment decree. Obviously this is a matter which we shall probably discuss again at Committee, but I would just say at this stage that an existing arrestment of earnings will not result in a level of deduction which would necessarily make payment of an instalment decree impossible. I think that will be clear by reference to Schedule 2. In any event, I have to say it is likely that the second creditor would seek to arrest the debtor's wages also in terms of the provisions in Clause 60, which allow for the making of a conjoined arrestment order. But I accept that obviously this is a matter which the noble Lord may wish to consider again and perhaps debate further at Committee stage.
Both the noble Lord, Lord Morton, and the noble Lord, Lord Ross, were particularly concerned about the matter of warrant sales. I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Morton, that, as he rightly guessed, I would stand firm on the fact that the Law Commission went into this matter in very great detail, and I observe that nothing that he said attempted to undermine the reasoning which brought the Law Commission to the conclusion that the warrant sale should be retained.
Perhaps I may say this about it. If one would have abolition of the warrant sale one has to accept—and indeed it has been said by some individuals and other agencies—that it could lead to credit becoming more difficult and expensive to obtain, since the warrant sale is an important spur to payment in the large number of cases which are settled at an earlier stage. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Ross, indicated the way in which the system operated and the result that, at the end of the day, very few cases come to the actual stage of a warrant sale.
If one had a restriction of that scale, it would affect everyone not paying for their goods in cash and would bear particularly hard upon those who live in the poorer areas of our towns and cities. There would also be a wholly undesirable temptation for those with

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money in bank accounts to convert it into luxury goods, collectors' items or other moveable goods, so as to put their money out of the reach of their creditors. It is generally agreed that people who are able to pay their legally binding debts should be required to do so.
As I said in opening, warrant sales could not be abolished unless an alternative mode of enforcement could be devised which would be as effective and more socially acceptable. The Law Commission considered this matter at length and it was well aware of the kind of problems which have been outlined by noble Lords opposite, but its conclusion, which was quite clear, was that such an alternative could not be devised. The result is that there has been a substantial reform proposed in this Bill which will remove most of the resented aspects and, in particular, the kind of aspects to which the noble Lord, Lord Ross, referred—the fact that it was done in the debtor's home and the fact that it was a public announcement of people being in debt. I accept entirely that these are the kinds of distresses which a humane system should avoid. I suggest to your Lordships that this is precisely what is effected by the Law Commission's proposals which are set out in this Bill.
I have to point out that we are not talking only about personal debt; we are also encompassing debt which goes beyond that, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Ross, recognised. I do not believe that we have precise figures with regard to that matter. However, in 1985, of the 80,000 debt decrees that were granted by the Scottish courts only some 700 ultimately reached the warrant sale stage. That is the figure for all sales and includes not merely those in houses but also those in shops, offices and the like.
Lord Ross of Marnock: My Lords, those are figures that have not yet been published. The published figures, most of which I quoted, showed a number nearer 400. Therefore, as I suspected, the amount of debt and the number of actions of diligence have gone up and up.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, your Lordships will take the inference from the figures. I was merely indicating that these are the most important figures. For that reason I continue to advise your Lordships that the Law Commission's views are the appropriate way to provide in this Bill for the most humane method of securing the interests of both the creditor and the debtor.
I believe I have dealt in general with particular points raised by noble Lords. Although I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is not now present, perhaps I may say that I am very glad he was able to speak; and I shall be glad to see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, here from the Campsies. In view of what has been said in your Lordships' House this afternoon concerning how long the cold spell is going to last, I can only say that he seems to have an effective way of accurately forecasting the weather in that he is confident that he will be here for the Committee stage.
I am also grateful to my noble friend Lady Elliot for the welcome she has given the Bill. She clearly pinpoints the importance of achieving the procedures
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which allow a creditor to be confident of obtaining payment of a debt and at the same time do not impose unreasonable hardship on a debtor and his family or produce unreasonable distress in their personal lives. I suggest that this Bill does just that, and for those reasons I commend it to your Lordships.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1978 (Continuance) (No. 3) Order 1986
4.55 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 18th November be approved. [2nd Report from the Joint Committee.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1978 (Continuance) (No. 3) Order 1986, which was laid before your Lordships on 18th November 1986 be approved.
Perhaps I may begin by briefly reviewing the security situation in Northern Ireland. I believe that your Lordships will agree that it is this situation, coupled with the potential threat which it implies, which leads us to be clearly but regretfully of the view that there continues to be a real need for emergency legislation in Northern Ireland. This view was reinforced by the tragic and reckless bomb attack in Enniskillen last Friday in which Reserve Constable Ivan Crawford was murdered; by the shooting attack on a leading member ofthe DUP, Mr. David Calvert, the previous day, which he was very lucky to survive; and by the fact that there have already been two mortar attacks on the security forces so far this year.
In Northern Ireland in 1986 a total of 62 people died as a result of the security situation. Thirty-eight of those people were civilians; 24 were members of the security forces. Four of the latter were members of the army, eight were members of the Ulster Defence Regiment and 12 were members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Royal Ulster Constabulary Reserve.
Those figures are a little worse than the comparable figures for 1985, but the violence is nowhere near the levels experienced in the 1970s. There is no such thing as an acceptable level of violence and each statistic represents its own human tragedy. That the situation is not worse is due to the unstinting efforts, courage and professional dedication of all sections of the security forces. They worked at an exceptionally high rate during 1986; the bald statistics do not and cannot tell the whole story. But I should record that more than 28,000 rounds of ammunition and nearly 5,000 pounds of explosives were recovered. During last year, 655 people were charged with terrorist-type offences.
The terrorist—any terrorist—has the capacity to kill and maim indiscriminately, and to put in fear those who stand in his way. That is why it is vital that the police and the courts have the necessary powers to bring him to task for his criminal actions. Hence we find the need for a temporary exceptional measure such as the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions)

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Act 1978, which provides for certain departures from normal judicial procedures where terrorist-type offences are concerned, while being consistent with the European Convention on Human Rights and the United Nations Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
My ministerial colleagues and I have made it plain that we do not wish to keep this legislation on the statute book for a day longer than is absolutely necessary, and it has been kept under constant review. The last major independent review by a judicial figure was completed in 1984 and your Lordships will know that a Bill is presently before another place which would make certain amendments to the 1978 Act. It will confer additional statutory rights on persons held in police detention under the terrorism provisions and establish a certification scheme intended to prevent paramilitary exploitation of the private security industry.
This Bill will be brought before your Lordships in due course. However, I am not able to say exactly when that will be as it depends on the progress which the Bill makes in another place. I should not like to pre-empt what may be said in another place or to spoil what may be said in your Lordships' House when the Bill comes before your Lordships. Until your Lordships' House has an opportunity to consider that Bill, I am sure that your Lordships will agree that the powers contained in the 1978 Act should be retained for a further six months. I commend the order to your Lordships' House.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 18th November be approved. [2nd Report from the Joint Committee.]—(Lord Lyell.)
Lord Prys-Davies: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for his introduction of the order, for describing the security position in Northern Ireland and for referring to the evidence which justifies the existence of emergency legislation.
In a democracy we are always aware that emergency legislation usually erodes the civil liberties of some citizens. Therefore our approach to the legislation or its continuation must be one of vigilance. The departure from normal standards of justice must be the least that is necessary in an emergency for the maintenance of order. It is for the government of the day to justify the derogation that it seeks. As the noble Lord has said, the derogation must be seen to be temporary. It should not be prolonged after the emergency has ceased.
I believe that there is a case for continuing the 1978 Act. The Minister has reminded your Lordships that the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1978, which is being continued by this draft order, will shortly be amended or replaced and that its place will be taken by the new Bill which has been introduced in another place. As the 1978 Act is therefore in the process of being amended I do not propose on this occasion to repeat some of our well-known reservations about some of its provisions. However, the noble Lord the Minister should not rush to the conclusion that the Opposition are fully satisfied with the Bill as drawn up.
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The Minister will know that in another place we have voiced criticism of the Bill, and we believe that that criticism is constructive. We therefore hope that the Government will give serious consideration to the amendments that will be tabled in another place and that when the Bill is introduced in your Lordships' House it will be more acceptable to those who are genuinely concerned about the maintenance of civil liberties.
The Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1978 is, as the Minister has indicated, the product of terror in Northern Ireland between 1969 and 1978. That terror has produced its toll. I, too, should like to take this opportunity to pay our tribute to the men and women who since 1978 have borne the burden and heat of the trouble in the Province. So at the beginning of a new year we pay tribute to those members of the security forces and the civilians who have died as a result of the violence. It is right that we should remember their families.
We also pay tribute to those who have been injured and to those families whose homes have been shattered by bomb explosions. The violence to which the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, has referred and the explosion which damaged 700 homes in Lisburn Road a week before Christmas illustrate once again the scale of the violence, notwithstanding the sacrifices, notwithstanding the vigilance of the security forces and indeed notwithstanding the existence of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act which we are renewing this evening.
The continued violence to which one has referred draws attention once more to the need for progress to be made on the political level in Northern Ireland, and at the threshold of a new year we trust and hope that the Anglo-Irish Agreement will be given an opportunity to bear fruit, though we accept that the fruit will not mature overnight. With those few observations, we are pleased to give our support to the renewal of the order.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, noble Lords may be surprised to see me rising at this point but I have to offer the apologies of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, who is unfortunately locked into Worcestershire by the inclement weather. He has spoken to me on the telephone and has indicated that had he been here he should have wished to give general support to the moving of this order today, though, like the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, we have considerable reservations from these Benches about finding ourselves continually having to endorse emergency provisions of this kind.
Clearly we are going to have to live with this in general for a long time to come. One cannot see an end in the immediate future. Therefore we accept these orders with reluctance, hoping always that some better ways may be found to maintain the peace and ensure that that troubled community reaches a point when such orders are no longer necessary and the normal course of justice can be allowed to resume.
In view of the fact that the Bill is going through another place, and without at this stage wishing to commend it or otherwise, it would clearly be foolish to do anything to resist the order or to do anything other than accept it today. As the noble Lord has said, this

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matter will be dealt with in much greater detail when the Bill comes to this House and, I am sure, much more efficiently and eloquently by my noble friend Lord Hampton than I am able to do today. In the meantime, it has our support.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, I rise to support this order and to thank my noble friend for his introduction. For me, this is a very sad day. Yesterday I took part in our church in the burial ceremony of Ivan Crawford. He was a young man, born and bred on Colebrooke. His father and all his uncles were involved in Colebrooke or Brookeborough. He was an upright, peaceful and dutiful man. He was one of the best citizens that you could possibly imagine.
He was doing his duty in Enniskillen, walking down the street, when a booby-trap bomb, triggered by wireless or remote control, foully murdered him. That bomb was made in the Irish Republic. The man who triggered that bomb was trained in the Irish Republic. Those bombs are not made by farm labourers. They are sophisticated bombs. I can tell your Lordships that the whole of our community is crushed by this tragedy. Our sympathy goes to his family and our admiration to him and his colleagues. I only wish that some of your Lordships had been there yesterday to see the fine standing and the smartness of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Women's Reserve and all their supporters. They are a real credit to our community.
Ivan's was one of the 82 murders in County Fermanagh for which only three people have been brought before the courts. The fact is that, being a border county, the refuge of the Irish Republic is there and these people cannot be touched. Immediately after that explosion a commentator said that an innocent passer-by might also have been murdered. Who is innocent? Nobody could be more innocent than Ivan Crawford and all those other people. I find the media's remarks about innocent people most offensive. This happened a few days after that evil prelate, Cardinal O'Fiaich, supported by the SDLP Member for South Armagh, said that Roman Catholics or Nationalists should not join the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Ten per cent. of the Royal Ulster Constabulary are Roman Catholics. Those two people are justifying the murder of those 10 per cent. by the IRA.
Shortly after that the Foreign Minister of the Republic damned the Royal Ulster Constabulary with faint praise. He said that the Royal Ulster Constabulary has behaved all right since the Anglo-Irish Accord. What was it doing before? Worse than all that is the fact that there was not a squeak out of our Northern Ireland Office to defend the Royal Ulster Constabulary and o say that for years and years it has been a fair policing service. What about the deputy Secretary of State who has been in charge of the RUC for many years? I find it intolerable that our Ministers do not defend our institutions. They do not, and I shall deal with that point again later. My heart is filled with sadness at having to raise these matters in this way.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, mentioned the Anglo-Irish Accord. I can promise him that that fruit, when it comes, will be sour as far as we are concerned. Parliament will find it extremely hard to understand
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why a vast number of Ulstermen, sensible people, do not accept what appears to this country to be a sensible arrangement for the governing of Northern Ireland. They see and they hear the strident and unacceptable tones of the Member for Antrim, North. It is unacceptable to us, the majority of the non-Republicans in Ulster, as well. Because this order is against the background of the Anglo-Irish Accord I felt I should try to explain why 100 per cent. of non-Republicans—I am not saying nionists—consider the accord is a betrayal.
First, Scotland and Wales, before they were to have a change in the form of their government, which was to be far less drastic or fundamental than ours, were given a referendum and they threw it out. But in democratic terms Ulster has spoken. In November 1985 200,000—and that is a lot of people—marched to City Hall to disapprove of the accord. At that point Unionists were told to have a good look at the accord and they would see good things in it. In January 1986 540,000 people voted against it, and on 15th November 1986, 300,000 people marched round City Hall. Can one get 100,000 or even 10,000 people to a political meeting? There must be something that those 300,000 people do not like, and they are reasonable, intelligent people. We are not being misled by loud-mouthed politicians. What we have seen we do not like.
In democratic terms it is a complete injustice. The Unionists civil rights have been eroded in a way that so far it has been impossible to get people to understand. Two-thirds of Ulster votes Unionist. One-third elects three non-Unionist Members. Under the Anglo-Irish Accord those non-Unionist Members have the right—and they use it—to go to Dublin and persuade Dublin that what they want is right. The Dublin Government then present the Republican case to our Government. Time and again, when the Member for South Armagh speaks, shortly afterwards the Foreign Minister for the Irish Republic echoes his views.
Our Government are under an obligation to do their utmost to meet the views of the Irish Government—the "three Republicans", or perhaps "two Republicans", because there are two SDLP Members. There is no such willingness expressed by the Government to listen to the views of two-thirds of the people. That is why we feel totally disfranchised. I must make it absolutely clear that I thoroughly disapprove of the boycott of the other place. I have said so and I do what I can to bring them back. Having said that, there must be some understanding that one vote for a Republican is multiplied by five.
There is no aspect now of Ulster life in which the Irish Government are not involved—appointments to health boards, appointments to the police authority and the spawning of legislation between the two Governments. That is why we do not like the accord.
As to the performance of the accord, in the past 12 months we have been subject once more to verbal bombardment by Ministers from the Dublin Government. The Irish Prime Minister bombarded the judiciary. He said that when the Lord Chief Justice quashed a case involving a supergrass it was in accordance with the Anglo-Irish Accord. In fact, he insulted our judiciary when he said that it was subject to political control. The judiciary in the South may

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well be—I do not know—but the judiciary in Ulster is not subject to political involvement.
That statement was bad enough, but where was our Secretary of State in defending our judiciary? There was not one peep from him. At a later date my right honourable friend the Solicitor-General did come out, in a speech which received no publicity, but I consider this lack of defence to be a disgrace. I give your Lordships a forecast. Although I utterly respect the decision of the judiciary to quash that case, I can inform your Lordships that it is my opinion that violence will increase this year and the Anglo-Irish Accord will have done nothing to stop it.
I repeat, the Foreign Minister attacks the police and no defence is put forward by our Government. The Dublin Government have failed to ratify the European Convention on Terrorism. There is nothing from our Government saying that they should have ratified it, but that was part of the Anglo-Irish Accord. The Dublin Government approved of extradition but it is not to take effect for 12 months. Either it is right to have it or it is wrong.
An order has come before the House twice a year since the Act was passed. Northern Ireland Ministers have said time and again that co-operation with the security forces of the South is first class. But when are we going to have results? Could we not start on the accord? Could we not harmonise some of the laws in dealing with terrorism? The Dublin Government have some very good laws. We have some very good laws. The Dublin Government should accept seven-day detention. They should give their army the same powers as ours. The free state army cannot stop a car without a Garda being present. They cannot talk to anybody or do anything. They are totally and absolutely powerless. Could we not jointly ban Sinn Fein from going on television in the way that they have in Dublin? Let us have some evidence that the accord is not just one-sided.
The Government said that we would get reconciliation. The fact is that intimidation has increased enormously. The housing executive alone had to deal with 1,000 rehouses this year. The Government have said that their preferred route is devolution. If there ever was a route to devolution it has been closed with the Anglo-Irish Accord. There is no route that way and the Government and Parliament must accept that. No Unionist can ever again sit down in a devolved government and be re-elected. He can sit down but he will be shot after that, either physically or metaphorically. There is no route down the route of devolution.
The accord has other intentions. It was supposed to save President Reagan's Senate. It has not done that. It was supposed to bolster Dr. Fitzgerald, but it does not look as if it has done that either. We were to have the European Convention on Extradition and were promised more security. I should honestly like to know who really believes, and made our Government believe, that more security could be produced from the Irish Republic; after all, they have been fighting this for the same number of years as we have.
One of the reasons why we shall not get extra security is that the Garda is politically controlled.
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Every member of the Garda from superintendent and above is appointed by the Minister of Justice and approved by the Cabinet. With such unstable governments as they have, there is a very long period in every year when no superintendent is going to stick out his neck more than the minimum. People will not take risks.
The truth is, too, that the Garda does not have the equipment. I have not been as rough on this aspect before, although I have known it for years and years—and, goodness knows, with the number of dead people in my area I would want anything which would prevent more deaths—but the fact is that the Garda does not have the equipment or the manpower to do much more. It does not have the leadership to take on hard men. For instance, where is the secure radio? Where is the team of fit, well equipped young men to carry out surveillance? The days of intelligence gathering in a pub are gone; it results from hard work and surveillance. The men and equipment are not there, your Lordships can take it from me. It is a hard grind and there is not the slightest sign that Dublin will produce them at all.
The Government can bluff by saying that they will not answer these questions because it is not in the public interest. I have kept quiet for too long. It is time it was said that the Garda does not have the stuff with which to do the job. Every week there has been a mortar attack around the Border. A mortar attack is a cumbersome operation. One cannot just pick up such a weapon, put it under one's arm and do something with it. It has to be put on a vehicle, and that means a major operation. Yet the Garda cannot stop this weekly mortaring. I cannot believe that it could not be stopped. That is how I see the accord working. The co-operation about which we hear is when British soldiers or a member of the RUC happen to put one foot across the Border and then they are arrested. That is not the kind of co-operation that I like.
I hope that this House has some idea of why we in Ulster will not accept the accord. We are being parcelled and packaged for delivery to a United Ireland. My Lords, I support this order.
Baroness Phillips: My Lords. I do not wish to intervene in the political arguments which the noble Viscount feels so strongly and with which I sympathise, but before he sits down will he agree that "evil" is a rather strong adjective to apply to a Catholic Cardinal?
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, "evil" is a subjective concept. I think the word is correct.
5.22 p.m.
Lord Fitt: My Lords, I rise not to support or reject this order—indeed, in the many years that I sat in another place I found that I had to object to the order for many reasons—because, as has already so rightly been pointed out by a previous speaker, since the creation of the Northern Ireland state we have always had to live under emergency legislation. For many years it was the Special Powers Act and since 1972, following the abolition of Stormont, we have had the emergency provisions and the Prevention of Terrorism Act. So under any circumstances I cannot lend my

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support to this legislation, although I understand the need for many of its provisions.
My reason for rising to speak today is to try in a few minutes to bring to bear the reasoning of your Lordships' House on the realities which exist in Northern Ireland—not on how people would like things to be or how they hope they may turn out in the future but on the realities of life in Northern Ireland and most of all the political realities. I speak with some experience of politics in Northern Ireland. For 10 years I was the Leader of the SDLP, which is one of the major political parties in Northern Ireland. Therefore I understand the reasoning behind the discussions which took place within the confines of that party and within the minority community in Northern ireland.
It is now 14 months since the signing and implementation of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which was intended to bring about reconciliation in Northern Ireland. It was meant to bring the two communities together, to allay the suspicions and fears which existed among the minority population and to give support to the Unionist position for the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. That is what it was alleged to do. I expressed my reservations at the time and since then I have had no reason to reassess them.
The Anglo-Irish Agreement was intended to draw the Catholic nationalist minority community away from supporting the violence of Sinn Fein and the IRA, on the grounds that there was to be set up an Anglo-Irish inter-governmental conference of which there would he two joint chairmen: one would be the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the other, who would represent minority interests at that intergovernmental conference, would be the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic, Peter Barry. Any fears and suspicions held by the minority community would be voiced by the co-chairman of the conference; namely, Peter Barry.
However, one of the most crucial elements, then as now, was the minority's attitude toward the RUC (the Royal Ulster Constabulary), because there can never be any hope of a political solution in Northern Ireland unless the vast majority of the population in Northern Ireland (as indeed would be the case anywhere else) give support to the forces of law and order. What is the present position? Has the SDLP, the party which I formerly led, made any progress over the past 14 months in recognising and accepting the RUC? Until that happens and until that police force is accepted by the overwhelming majority of the population, one cannot hope to bring about an end to terrorism.
Sadly I have to tell the House that there has been absolutely no progress made in that direction. The SDLP has not departed by one single inch or centimetre from the stand which it previously took. That political stand taken by the SDLP totally infuriates the Protestant majority community in Northern Ireland, which sees that concessions have been made to the SDLP but that after having obtained some favours from the Anglo-Irish Agreement, absolutely no reciprocal response has been offered.
I understand why the SDLP has not moved, but sadly that is what I have to tell the House. No Government can govern effectively any community or
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country if they do not have the support of the population and support for the security forces. Indeed, it was the minority's withdrawal or rejection of support for the RUC which led to the abolition of Stormont by the Conservative Government. The minority community had no faith in the RUC—and perhaps I may say here that at that particular time I did not have a great deal of faith in the RUC, though I am the first to admit that since then there have been dramatic strides made by the RUC and dramatic changes have taken place, so that I now fully accept that the RUC is acting as a police force in the interests of the whole community in Northern Ireland and that it should have the support of that community.
However, the SDLP is an opposition party. It is opposed to the Unionists and opposed to every facet of Unionism. This opposition is based on political, cultural and other grounds. The one ace card that the SDLP has to play is non-acceptance of the RUC. The SDLP says to a succession of governments here, both Labour and Conservative, "We will accept the RUC if you make such and such a concession to us". After that concession has been made it says, "We cannot accept it yet and you must make another concession to us", and so it goes on. Once the SDLP has thrown away that major poitical ace of non-recognition of the RUC it has no further cards to play and that is why it is holding on to it.
One would have hoped that the SDLP would have supported the RUC. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, has already referred to the fact that 236 RUC policemen and officers have been killed since the onset of the present troubles (the last was killed in County Fermanagh), and one should remember that. However, Peter Barry, who is the joint chairman of the Anglo-Irish Agreement and allegedly the voice of nationalists at this conference, made a television broadcast in which he was asked whether he now thought that the time was opportune for members of the minority to join the RUC. He said yes, he thought the time was now opportune. Within two days, a spokesman for the SDLP was saying, "No, no, no, the time is not opportune for the Catholic minority community to join the RUC." Who is the voice of the minority in the Anglo-Irish Inter-governmental Council?—because Peter Barry's sentiments were totally cast aside. In fact, the deputy leader of the SDLP said, in response to a question, "Peter Barry does not speak for me." So Peter Barry is asking the Catholic population in the North to join the RUC but the political leaders in the North are saying, "Don't join the RUC." Then the deputy leader of the SDLP said, and I quote directly from his remarks:
"We are not going to have, during the rest of this century, a situation in nationalist areas where there will be support for the RUC."
So here we have a prediction by the deputy leader of the minority party that for the rest of this century we are going to have a position where 30 or 40 per cent. of the population in Nothern Ireland is not supporting the forces of law and order.
Let me tell the Minister that I make this prediction, sadly but confident that I am right, that into the next century you are never—and I underline the word "never"—going to have a political spokeman for the

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minority in Northern Ireland advising the Catholic youth to join the RUC.
The ecclesiastical voice of the Catholics in Northern Ireland, Cardinal O'Fiaich, recently entered into the controversy as well. He said that the time was not right for Catholics to join the RUC, particularly in view of the Stalker affair. Prior to the name "Stalker" ever being heard in Northern Ireland, the Catholics were finding a reason for not joining the RUC. Five years before that, they were finding reasons not to join the RUC and before that they were finding reasons not to join the RUC. The 10 per cent. of Catholics who are in the RUC have joined that force in spite of their political leaders and in defiance of their political leaders.
I have here a quotation which I regard as very sad. The assistant chief constable of the RUC, Mr. Cahal Ramsey, who, in my estimation, is a good Catholic and a damned good Irishman, has spent his lifetime in the RUC. In response to the Cardinal's remarks about not joining in the non-acceptance of the RUC, he wrote a letter to the Press and in one paragraph he said:
"As a long serving member of the police service and as a Catholic, I must, with sadness, protest at these unfair and indeed unjust references. From them it could be inferred that I and other police officers of the minority community, past and present, are somehow less than full members of the Catholic Church and, indeed, less than Irish. Nothing could be further from the realities of the situation."
I would support those sentiments as expressed.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord a question. He told us that some years ago at the time when he was leader of the SDLP, he himself was against Catholics joining the RUC. But he said that since then there had been dramatic changes. Could he just say one or two words about what those dramatic changes are?
Lord Fill: There have been dramatic changes. I hope the noble Earl is not supporting the plea that has been put forward that Catholics should not give support to the RUC, because if anyone is admitting that suggestion, then they are expressing sentiments which are bound to lead to continuation of our present troubles. I was one of the men who was hit on 5th October 1968 as I led a Civil Rights march in Derry and I was beaten up by the RUC on that occasion. The RUC at that time were acting under the instructions of a Unionist Minister of Home Affairs. There is no doubt that the RUC, as it was then, was totally different from the way it is operating now. There is a police authority now and RUC actions are subject to discussion in this House.
At the time the RUC could not be mentioned in this House or in another place. It was regarded as being a matter for the then Stormont Government. So in this House and in the other place, that is the reason why we are discussing this legislation and why there is a Bill going through another place to get to the Committee stage. The RUC and even its members are now open to very close scrutiny. The very fact that an assistant chief constable who is a Catholic and an Irishman is second in command of the RUC is in effect tantamount to admitting that great changes have taken place in the RUC.
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However, I come back to the fact that you cannot govern Northern Ireland when 30 or 40 per cent. of the population there do not support the security forces—namely, the RUC. I quote again from the deputy leader of the SDLP, who said that they would not be accepted in nationalist areas. There are very many Catholics who do not live in nationalist areas: they do not live in the Bogside or Ballymurphy but all over Northern Ireland and they have to depend on the RUC for further protection.
So can we ever get to a stage where the population in Northern Ireland would give support to the forces of law and order who are the only forces who can protect them? I have already said that the non-recognition of the security forces is the political ace card which is at present held by the SDLP. I do not think that if the Cardinal were to suffer a nervous breakdown overnight or if the SDLP were to suffer a nervous breakdown and, tomorrow morning, make a statement that they supported the RUC there would be hundreds and thousands of young Catholic men rushing into RUC recruiting stations. I do not believe that that would happen. I do not believe the SDLP would have that authority. But one of the saddest things is that I was speaking recently to someone who supported the SDLP and I voiced my objections as I am doing in your Lordships' House this evening. He said, "You see how difficult it is. If the SDLP asked young Catholic men to joint the RUC and then they went out and were killed by the IRA, how would the SDLP explain that away?" To me it is an awful admission of the impotence and ambivalence of the SDLP as a political party if they are frightened about what the IRA would do to people whom they have asked to join the security forces.
That is the main part, that is what this Bill is about, that is what the next Bill, when it comes from another place, will be about. It is all about the security forces and what action can be taken by the security forces to stop the depredations and the ongoing campaign of violence by the IRA.
I would appeal, as a former leader. I am quite well aware that this appeal will fall on deaf ears, but I would appeal to all those Catholics who live in Northern Ireland and depend on the RUC for their protection—because the IRA cannot give them protection, the UVF and all the other organisations cannot give them protection. I would appeal to all those who have to seek the protection of the RUC, irrespective of what Cardinal O'Fiaich may say. They all know Cardinal O'Fiaich, and no one can take this away from him: he has had many many predecessors in the past who have felt the same way, he is a constitutional nationalist. In other words, he does not want to see the state of Northern Ireland existing. The RUC are upholders of the law in Northern Ireland, they are there to see that the constitutional position exists. So how can the Cardinal, who is a dedicated nationalist, and the SDLP give support to the RUC, which is there to ensure the continuation of the state of Northern Ireland, when they are politically and, indeed, ecclesiastically opposed to it? It is a contradiction in terms. So anyone who expects that as a result of the Anglo-Irish Agreement the SDLP will throw away their ace is not living with reality.

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There is only one other matter I wish to speak on here, and that is the Diplock Courts, which again have caused a great deal of controversy. The question is, should there be one judge, two judges, three judges? I say again, and I only do this to put a rubber stamp on what I have said in the House before, that it is impossible to bring back the jury system in Northern Ireland at this time. But juries are not the be-all and the end-all of justice, whether in Northern Ireland or in this House. There were three juries here in this country, those which sat in deliberation on the Guildford bombings, the Annie Maguire case and on the Birmingham bombings. Those three juries were totally and absolutely wrong in bringing in "guilty" verdicts. We know that very well. I know it may be hard for British people to accept that, but these cases have attracted public attention in the last few years.
I was on a deputation to the present Home Secretary last week. I understand that within a few days he may make a statement and refer one of the cases, that of the Birmingham bombers, to the Court of Appeal. I have not been much involved in that case, but I have been involved in the Annie Maguire case. The members of this family have already served 10, 12, 14 years' imprisonment. They are now released. They would have no need to continue with this campaign to prove their innocence if they were guilty, but they are innocent. This case will continue to be brought before the House and before the country until those people are totally exonerated of a crime of which they were not guilty.
We shall have an opportuntity to discuss the new Bill when it arrives from another place. I finish by making an appeal to the political leaders in Northern Ireland and, most of all, to the Catholic minority community to give their support to the RUC because it is the only force that can protect them from the machinations, the depredations and the murderous activities of the men of violence from both sides of the community in Northern Ireland.
Lord Kilbracken: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend this question about the RUC? Would he agree that the main change that has happened in regard to the RUC is that they are now strongly opposed by a very great number of the Unionist population? That is a factor that has not been brought out, but it seems to me to be very relevant.
Lord Fitt: My Lords, although I had intended to limit my remarks, let me make this quite clear. Given that the state was set up on the basis of Protestant and Catholic head counts, that is, two tribes, if one pleases one tribe, one does not please the other.
Early in 1985, before the Anglo-Irish Agreement was implemented, the RUC, at the behest of the British Government, were given a dry run in a place called Portadown. The Unionists had been marching in a very provocative way over a number of years, and deliberately set out to provoke the minority population in Portadown. The British Government told the RUC—and I am certain that they were under political instruction then—to do what they could to stop these very provocative parades. What they were in effect doing was to see whether the RUC would use force against the Protestant population and, if they
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could be sure that the Protestant population would be met with the force of the RUC, then it would be a sign that they could go ahead with the Anglo-Irish Agreement. They therefore did that, and it has happened in many cases since Portadown.
One is dealing with words, and words in Northern Ireland have a different meaning and complexion from what is understood over here. If a political leader in Northern Ireland says that the RUC were acting impartially last week, do your Lordships know what that means? It means that they were knocking hell out of the other side. That is exactly what it means. That is why Peter Barry, the co-chairman of the Anglo-Irish council, said that the RUC acted impartially in Portadown, and elsewhere—because they were beating hell out of the Orangemen.
Lord Kilbracken: My Lords, for the first time.
Lord Fitt: My Lords, yes, for the first time, but that is what impartiality means. Therefore, the RUC are caught: if they are being impartial to one side, they are beating hell out of the other side. That is the way it has ever been because of the circumstances in which the Northern Ireland state came into being.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I must make a correction. The RUC operated against the yobs in the Shankhill many times, including when Constable Arbuckle was murdered, to take one incident. The idea that the RUC never operated except in one way is not true or fair. They are now a brilliantly led, brilliantly equipped and brilliantly trained force operating with total impartiality, and that is what matters, not the past.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, first, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, for not having been able to hear the whole of his speech. I was called out of the Chamber to speak to an unfortunate member of my family stranded by a blizzard.
I welcome the intention of the Government in the near future to introduce a Bill amending the original Act that we are discussing tonight and implementing some at least of Sir George Baker's recommendations. We shall be able to debate the adequacy or otherwise of this in due course.
I should like to mention two or three recent documents that have a bearing on the order. The first is The Times editorial of 8th January. This concerned the three cases already mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt. I should like to draw that to the attention of the Government. I go on to touch on the question of the transfer of prisoners from English prisons to prisons in Northern Ireland. We have recently had a major statement from the National Association of Probation Officers which I ask the Government to study very carefully. I understand that the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights in Northern Ireland will have a chapter on this very subject in its forthcoming annual report, and we look forward to reading and studying that.
I hope that, with the aid of those two documents, the Government will be able to be much more

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forthcoming on this subject than they have ever been in the past.
I should like to mention next a document entitled Co-existence in some plural European Societies. This is Report No. 72 of the Minority Rights Group. It deals with the situation of the Germans in North Italy, Swedes in Finland and the numerous minorities in Belgium. In all these areas, considerable progress has been made since 1950 in dealing with problems nearly, if not quite, as intractable as those of Northern Ireland. I hope that we shall have an opportunity to debate the report in your Lordships' House on 11th February.
I come now to a recent statement from Amnesty International. This deals with the unfortunate situation that has arisen in recent years over fatal shootings by the security forces in Northern Ireland. Since the autumn of 1982, 34 people, of whom 18 were unarmed, have been killed by the police or the army. This is a serious matter. It has concerned Amnesty, which has been corresponding with the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland since October 1985. Amnesty went on to issue a press release in September last year, of which the reference number is EUR 45/01/86.
I suggest that it is quite insufficient to say that the proposed new Police Complaints Commission will be able to put these matters right. We are already faced with an unsatisfactory situation. The Commission will be able to consider complaints only once they are made, and no doubt with a fixed starting point.
We should perhaps look briefly at the other safeguards. Criminal charges against members of the security forces are said to be one, police investigations another and coroner's inquests a third. In my view, none of these safeguards has proved effective or adequate up to now. I do not really see how they can do so in future.
I urge the Government not to brush aside the representations made by Amnesty. The loss to the public service of the County Coroner for Armagh and of a distinguished police officer in the person of Mr. John Stalker should be warning enough.
Amnesty International suggested a judicial inquiry. No doubt that is not the only suggestion that could be made. The Government may find a more suitable and effective procedure, but nevertheless I beg them not to ignore the matter as something unworthy of their consideration. To do so would be to concede a propaganda victory to terrorism and unnecessarily to offend many law-abiding people in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere throughout the world.
I conclude by saying a word about the petition currently being circulated in Northern Ireland against the Anglo-Irish Agreement. One may perhaps be pleased that the Unionist parties have adopted a tried and known constitutional method of making known their point of view. However, the conduct of that petition is an important and delicate subject. I therefore appeal to those persons and organisations in Northern Ireland which are able to monitor and verify the methods used and the procedures involved in this
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petition to do so extremely carefully. It is obviously not something in which the Government can interfere or be involved. I think that I have probably said enough to show the sensitivity of this matter and our hopes that the petition will be conducted in a highly constitutional and proper manner.
Lord Blease: My Lords, I support the reasoned and relevant remarks in support of the order made by our Front Bench spokesman the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. I warmly welcome the tribute paid by the Minister to the work done by the security forces in their efforts to contain communal strife in Northern Ireland, to deal with the brutal acts of terrorism and paramilitarism, and to carry out the normal policing duties required in a society such as ours.
I express my sympathetic understanding of the strong words used by the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough. He has made courageous statements in his area—one which has been dominated by terrorism and brutality for a long time. It takes a man of courage to stand up in that area and denounce terrorism in the way that he has. At the same time, I join with him in his words of sympathy to the families of those who have recently lost their loved ones through savage acts of terrorism. I know that other noble Lords will join me when I say that.
I commend the action of the noble Viscount in presenting his forthright views to the House, whether we agree or disagree with him. He has had the courage to put them on the record in this House. I support fully what he said about the boycotting of another place by the elected representatives of Northern Ireland. They are doing a disservice to all the people of Northern Ireland and to the principles of parliamentary democracy.
The Government should examine urgently every possible way of strengthening the democratic processes and upholding law and order. Some of what we have heard tonight has been a rehearsal of the forthcoming debate in this House on the Bill which is now being debated in another place. I await that occasion with interest. I support the order that is before us.
The Earl of Perth: My Lords, I rise rather unpremeditatedly because of a remark made by the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough. He said that the cardinal is an evil man. The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, queried his use of that adjective. As I understand it, the noble Viscount said that he used the word in a subjective sense. I do not know what that means.
I went to the trouble of looking up the word in the Oxford English Dictionary. I found there that when it is applied to persons it means "morally depraved", "bad", "wicked" or "vicious". I cannot believe that the noble Viscount meant to use the adjective in that sense. It does not help us to achieve what we want, namely, something better in Northern Ireland. I understand his view on many points, but I hope that he will reconsider what he said.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, with the leave of the House, having heard the noble Earl, I shall substitute the word "bad', because it was a very bad thing which was done.
6 p.m.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, your Lordships will agree that we have had a short, useful and interesting debate. As all noble Lords have said, the debate on the order is overshadowed by the Bill which is currently before another place. I have been put on notice that your Lordships will wish to cover a wide range of issues, perhaps even wider than those we have discussed this evening, when the Bill comes before the House. In view of the short and simple order before us, I believe that your Lordships will agree that I should not comment in detail on all the issues which have been raised. I hope that we can profitably and more reasonably discuss some of them when we discuss the Bill.
I should like to deal briefly with some of the general points which have been made by your Lordships. As far as I can, I shall answer the specific points which have been raised, but if I miss any I can assure the House that I shall write as briefly and succinctly as possible to those of your Lordships who raised them.
One general point made by several of your Lordships, especially the noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Fitt, which is central to the Government's approach to the emergency legislation before us is that of securing public confidence in not just the security forces (the main theme of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt) but, above all, in the administration of justice in Northern Ireland. The Government's view is that that is fundamental to the success of security policies in Northern Ireland. We keep under constant review all aspects of the process of criminal justice, especially those procedures which apply to persons suspected or accused of scheduled offences in Northern Ireland. That is the context of the Bill which is in another place and is the background to this order.
I am sure that your Lordships will acknowledge that the Government's current legislative proposals reflect our concern to ensure that any departures from normal procedures are as limited as they can be, always taking into account the background of the continuing terrorist campaign which was spelled out to us this evening by my noble friend Lord Brookeborough. The proposals also reflect our concern that the basic rights of everyone suspected or accused of scheduled offences should be fully protected.
Many points have been raised this evening by your Lordships and perhaps I may begin with those made by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. He pointed out that the order before us is once again a derogation from the normal procedures. We accept that, and I am sure he accepts that we have derogation from the normal procedures that we should like to see. He knows the background. We renew these orders on a regular basis and are most grateful for what he said and his understanding of why the order is being introduced tonight. We are particularly grateful for the support he expressed—support which I am sure will be shared by your Lordships—for the courage and steadfastness of all the security forces.
The noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, was kind enough to warn us of the weather which has prevented his noble friend Lord Hampton from joining us this evening. We
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hope that he will be able to join us on a future occasion when the weather will have improved slightly. However, we are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, for his helpful comments and for the proxy comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, on the reasons why we wish to renew the order again this evening.
I turn now to the trenchant and forthright remarks, as one would expect, from my noble friend Lord Brookeborough. We should all accept, I am sure, the very deep feelings my noble friend expresses when somebody we know well in our community is brutally murdered. He expressed views that I am sure all of us would wish to express in such circumstances. We should have felt such feelings ourselves had we been in the same position. Indeed, my noble friend's remarks stress what I set out in my opening remarks; that terrorism is not just a matter of statistics but of each and every individual tragedy. What has happened shows us what is involved in terrorism, especially in Northern Ireland.
My noble friend went on to make a number of trenchant remarks about the Anglo-Irish Agreement. The main thrust of his speech underlines and reinforces the need the Government feel to develop even closer and more comprehensive cross-Border security co-operation. I believe that he and indeed all your Lordships, including the noble Lords, Lord Blease and Lord Fitt, would accept that this is not a situation we can achieve overnight.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, does my noble friend not think that 16 years is quite a long time for it to start?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, my noble friend made a number of trenchant remarks in referring to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. If he wants to go right back to the elements of 1968 and 1969 I probably can do that, but perhaps not tonight; perhaps on another occasion. We may indeed find one or two interesting things that were said by my noble friend's father—as I recall, my bedside reading in the Cameron Report of 1969. There were some interesting things said there as well as elsewhere. However, I shall not trail herrings of any colour around your Lordships this evening. I hope that my noble friend and indeed all your Lordships will accept that cross-Border security co-operation is not something that can be achieved overnight. However, I stress that we are laying the groundwork and we look forward to securing solid benefits. I reiterate those two words.
I also wish to stress that Mr. Barry, the Foreign Minister of the Republic of Ireland, has expressed the view that the Royal Ulster Constabulary is a force which offers an appropriate career for members of the minority community. I do not think I should go into his expression further, but certainly in normal cases such as this it reflects the varying degrees of Irishness of the young man. I leave it to the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, and to my noble friend as to how they take Mr. Barry's views.
I want to join my noble friend and also the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, in calling on the SDLP to demonstrate equivalent support, whatever form it might take, for

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the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I have noted many of the comments to which the noble Lord, Lord Fitt referred. I have seen them in the newspapers and heard them through the media, and they strike a rather harsh chord with me and perhaps also with many other Members of your Lordships' House.
I regret that my noble friend Lord Brookeborough feels that my ministerial colleagues and I do not give the support he believes the Royal Ulster Constabulary deserves. I certainly reject that because we really do everything we possibly can to support that body. However, I think that if I were in my noble friend's position, having attended a funeral yesterday in sad circumstances, I should express the same feelings. But I stress to him that we give our utmost, total support to the brave men and women of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
My noble friend's view of the Anglo-Irish Agreement is well known. I cannot say that I go along with his attitude, which I think is needlessly negative. I hope he will at least accept that the Government remain ready and willing—indeed keen—to listen to and take account of the views of the Unionist community. I think it is a matter of profound regret that with only one or two very brave exceptions (and I include of course my noble friend here) the entire bulk of the political representatives of the Unionist community—I will not delve into the varying strands of Unionism—have completely withdrawn from normal political debate. I shall say fairly mildly that we hope they will return.
My noble friend's comments on the Anglo-Irish Agreement would go further. I stress to him that the Government entered into the agreement because we firmly believe that it is in the long-term best interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. I hope we shall all be spared until the next century to see whether the predictions of the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, come true. He has had notable success with his predictions in other fields and I might take a modest wager with him, but perhaps not tonight. I stress that the agreement does not adversely affect any basic Unionist interest: I stress that once again. Certainly we believe that it will facilitate progress towards devolution on a basis of widespread agreement in Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. I hope that my noble friend will take that as read.
He was also somewhat critical of the abilities and the equipment of the Garda. I would not want to let that pass without stating my confidence in the will of the guards and of the Irish Government to play a full part in the eradication of terrorism. This may well involve changes in the structure and equipment of security forces in the Republic; but certainly my noble friend and your Lordships have the Government's assurance that we shall continue to keep up the pressure on this aspect.
My noble friend suggested that the Anglo-Irish Agreement was something of a monolith, and was at a halt. I stress to him—and I hope he will pass on the message to every one of his friends and every Unionist in Northern Ireland—that the offer of talks made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on the 25th February last year still stands. The Government
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are indeed prepared to operate the agreement sensitively in the context of talks about devolution. I hope that my noble friend will take that on board.
He made one other comment which I noted with interest. I think he was referring to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, and he said, "What we have seen we do not like". I hope that I have quoted him correctly. If I have not, I apologise. However, we can check in the Official Report tomorrow. Those words might be understood slightly differently in Scotland, England and Wales. It is a matter of profound regret I believe to all of us that political expression in Northern Ireland about the Anglo-Irish Agreement has taken the tone that it has and that we are not able to discuss this agreement either in your Lordships' House in reasonable tones or in another place. I stress again, I hope my noble friend will take this on board, that the offer given by my right honourable friend on 25th February of last year still stands.
We cannot be responsible for anything that is said by the Taoiseach or the Republic's Government. I hope that my noble friend will beware of commenting on judicial decisions. I was always taught when I was young to respect the decision of the referee on the sporting field. I believe that it is very valuable advice that we should not cast aspersions, whether or not we agree with judicial decisions, especially if they affect matters in Northern Ireland.
My noble friend also commented on one or two aspects of secure radio. He commented about fit young men carrying out surveillance south of the Border. I shall leave his comments because this Government simply cannot answer for the Government of the Republic.
The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, made a notable contribution to our debate this evening. I enjoyed his remarks about impartiality. Doubtless he reads, as I do, that notable organ, the newspaper in County Fermanagh the Impartial Reporter. My noble friend Lord Brookeborough often appears on the pages there. But I believe that nobody would wish to cast aspersions on that excellent newspaper. It is indeed a paragon of impartiality in Northern Ireland. It is to my mind and to that of many noble Lords a source of interest and no little amusement.
All of us noted the reservations of the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, with regard to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Indeed, we noted the crucial element of the agreement that he sought; that was acceptance by the minority community of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. However, the most valuable point that the noble Lord made was that the minority community who live away from what he termed nationalist areas depend upon the Royal Ulster Constabulary for their protection, for impartial policing. I go much further than that. Every one of us in Northern Ireland depends upon the Royal Ulster Constabulary. We are immensely grateful for all their tremendous efforts.
The noble Lord also referred to the two cases with which your Lordships will be familiar, one of which was the Maguire case. I hope that he will not expect me to comment on them this evening. He knows the usual procedures with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home Office, who is

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considering the points raised by the noble Lord both here and through other channels.
The noble Lord raised one point about what we tend to call the Diplock courts. Perhaps I may try briefly to cover that point for him. The noble Lord and your Lordships will be aware of the subject of scheduled offences in Northern Ireland. The Government are certainly not at present persuaded that the establishment of three-judge courts for the trial of scheduled offences would offer any particular advantages over the present arrangements. There are a number of reasons for this. I could set them out and give the varying numbers of statistics, but I hope your Lordships will accept that we can leave this matter until another day.
We agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fitt. We are disappointed with the attitude of the SDLP to members of the Roman Catholic Church joining the RUC. We would wish to support them very greatly if they wish to join.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, raised a number of points. I believe that one dealt with the transfer of prisoners to Northern Ireland. I see that he nods in assent. Whenever someone is convicted and is to serve a sentence the presumption in law is that that prisoner will serve his sentence in the jurisdiction in which the sentence was imposed. The transfer of prisoners from Great Britain to Northern Ireland is by law a matter for my right honourable friend the Home Secretary or for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Although it is the practice—and I use that word advisedly—for the authorities in the receiving country (that is the country where the prisoner may have expressed a wish to spend his sentence) to be consulted before any transfer is made, I stress that all applications for transfer are considered on their merits against the background of the policy criteria. If a prisoner, regardless of the nature of his offence, had incicated by his behaviour, and above all by his attitude, while in prison in Great Britain that he could not be relied upon—and I stress that—subsequent to his transfer to co-operate in the normal prison regime, it would be unlikely that his request for transfer would be granted. I think that your Lordships would accept and understand perfectly well why that might or might not be so.
The noble Lord, also referred to the Amnesty International report. He mentioned that a number of letters had been written. I am able to tell him that Amnesty also wrote to me. Arrangements are being made to give an adequate reply to Amnesty and to the organisations that wrote to us. I am able to tell the noble Lord that the Government take such allegations very seriously. We look forward to the resolution of the cases which are currently being investigated by Mr. Sampson of the West Yorkshire Police. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will make a statement on the public interest aspects of this report at the earliest possible moment. However, the mechanics of the petition which is currently being promoted by the different strands of unionism in Northern Ireland is a matter for them, as I am sure the noble Lord will accept.
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We are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, for his comments and for the intervention—I hesitate to say erudite intervention—of the noble Earl, Lord Perth, who took my noble friend to task on one or two of the words which had been used about the Cardinal. Your Lordships will understand that I do not wish to enter the discussion on definitions; I do not have a dictionary with me. But we are grateful for the interest shown by the noble Earl.
I hope that I have covered all the important points raised by noble Lords who have spoken in this evening's debate. If there are any that I have missed I assure your Lordships that we shall write to you as briefly as possible. I look forward to having a full debate on our legislative proposals in due course. Pending consideration by your Lordships of the Bill which is currently before another place, I recommend that we approve the order before us to allow the 1978 Act to continue in force.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Animals (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
6.19 p.m.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I beg to move that the Animals (Scotland) Bill be now read a second time.
The task of the Scottish Law Commission is to keep the law in good repair. That is precisely what they are seeking to do in this Bill. They have come to the conclusion that there are problems of law involving animals which increasingly highlight the defects in the existing system. This is perhaps not altogether surprising because most of the rules and institutional writings go back to the 17th century. Indeed, some of the information on this matter goes back much further. We can see that Gaius, the great Roman jurist, said that if anyone was damaged by an animal he was entitled at least to compensation for loss of employment and for medical attention. Therefore, this is an old problem to which there has not yet been a simple answer.
Accordingly, the Law Commission had very wide consultations in Scotland because this is a matter which affects a great many people in a great many different circumstances. They have consulted some 70 organisations and individuals the length and breadth of the country. After long and very careful examination of the replies which they received, they drew up the present Bill and I think we should express our gratitude for the trouble which they have taken in so doing.
I am particularly glad to be informed that the Bill is welcomed by the National Farmers' Union and is wholeheartedly supported by the Law Society of Scotland which is introducing a new principle which I shall endeavour to explain. First, this is purely a Bill of law and not one of those administrative organisational Bills with which we have been so busily occupied in this House in recent times.
This Bill involves a new principle, but it leaves intact the law of negligence. In other words, action can still be taken where some fault can be proved. I suspect that that action will probably remain a more popular avenue for legal action than others. It also leaves

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unaffected the current law of nuisance, dealing with such things as noise, smell, etc.
That was not regarded as sufficient by the Law Commission. The particular problem which has arisen is the interpretation of the word "scienter" which simple means "knowledge", so far as I know. The origin of this word is not statutory and I do not know from where it started. It appears to have drifted from the common law of England into the common law of Scotland. However, it has led to a very rich variety of interpretations. Perhaps I may explain it in a few sentences. To use the words of Stair, where an animal, not a species, is considered to be pernicious or outrageous, or at least is known to be pernicious or outrageous, and that in fact is known by the owner or keeper, then an action will lie.
It is not easy to know whether the owner knows how pernicious his animal is. There are many ways of learning that either by hearsay or by some other way, and it has created a good deal of uncertainty. The Law Commission have tried to find a new principle on which to act. I think that it is in the tradition of Scots law that we prefer to have principles from which we deduce that application in detail rather than as in England where often one starts with inducing principles from detailed application. Be that as it may, that is the endeavour of the Scottish Law Commission.
They have sought to establish the principle that if a species of animal is known by its natural physical attributes and its habits to be likely or capable of injuring severely persons or animals, then that is a serious risk and it must be subject to strict liability. I shall refer to those animals in a moment.
The second category, dealing with cattle of all kinds, including deer, is not liable for damaging persons but it is liable for damaging property or the produce of land, crops, grass, etc. It concerns the natural quality of cattle, and it is what they will do if they are allowed to stray. This is largely what theWinter Herding Act of 1680 did, but it puts it rather more strictly.
The animals listed as causing serious risk are shown in the appendix to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act of 1976. Strictly speaking, it mostly concerns animals outside this country, but the Bill adds the word "dogs". Dogs are included among those animals which constitute a serious risk. The reason is that the report which the Law Commission received made it clear that in many cases dogs were the cause of anxiety, and in certain cases the cause of worrying sheep, if not more than that.
Therefore, the two categories which we support are first, the danger to animals and persons which are categorised as serious risk, and secondly, the danger to crops by the straying of animals. The deduction which the Law Commission makes on this is that the significance of the word "scienter" should disappear completely from Scots law. I believe that that is a great advantage.
There are limited defences which can be made to the application of strict liability. First, there is contributory negligence where damage is wholly the fault of the person who sustained damage or injury. That appears in Clause 2. Secondly, there is the case where the risk is voluntarily accepted: the principle of
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volenti non fit injuria. Thirdly, there is the trespasser or, as it appears in the Bill (because "trespasser" is a rather difficult word) the person not authorised or entitled to be on the land.
I think that that should not be interpreted too sharply because there are many people who are entitled to approach houses, particularly postmen who very often complain of being bitten. However, there are many other people who may be visiting or carrying on business and who are entitled to do so. Those principles are also contained in Clause 2.
That broadly is the new principle introduced by the Bill: strict liability for animals which are not restrained and who are fulfilling what is to them a natural task. That is to say, they are grazing on land or young trees when away from their own enclosures.
There are two further points which I should like to mention. First, the circumstances in which a keeper of a herd, whether of sheep or cattle, would be entitled to shoot the aggressor, particularly a dog. It is made quite clear in the Bill that that action can only be taken when it is the only way in which the sheep can be protected, and it can only be done by the keeper of the sheep. It cannot be punitive: the dog, if he has left the herd, cannot be followed and shot for a punitive purpose. Such action can only be taken when it is an essential and effective way of protecting the sheep. If a dog is killed it will be necessary for the police to be informed within 48 hours, and it cannot be done by anyone engaged in a criminal activity.
The second point deals with animal strays, and that appears in Clause 3. The occupier of the land may retain any straying animal in order to prevent it doing any damage or indeed injuring any thing. He would be liable to look after it. This is also dealt with in the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982.
Those are the main purposes of the Bill. It is quite a short one and has only nine clauses in it. The Bill is intended to clarify the responsibility both to the individuals who hold animals and also to enable the courts to understand where responsibility lies. It tightens slightly the liability of animal owners, which is probably correct. It will make it easier for all to understand more clearly what their responsibilities are and what their liabilities may be. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
6.31 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, perhaps I should ask for the indulgence of your Lordships' House as an Englishman who dares to intrude in a debate on a Scottish Bill. It is something that few English Members of Parliament dared to do in another place. With time limited for debate, it was probably thought that an Englishman should not take Dart when Scottish Members wanted to speak to their constituents. For that reason, we had to keep out of Scottish debates. But, I may add, the Scots always wanted a three-line whip on a Scottish day.They wanted the support of the whole House if they could get it on those occasions.
I have a Scottish connection. I do not think that I need to present myself to your Lordships' House as a newcomer which would require me to state my qualifications for being here. I am president of the St.

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Andrew's Animal Trust in Edinburgh, chairman of the Committee for the Reform of Animal Experimentation, which is based in Edinburgh, I am also vice-president of the Habitat organisation and I call myself a friend of the Highlands of Scotland. I dealt with teachers' pay in Scotland in 1974, and no Englishman has done that before or since.
For many years, I looked after the interests of the tax gatherers of Scotland in conjunction with those of England and Northern Ireland. The difference was that on 1st January every year taxpayers in Scotland queued up outside the collector's office to pay their dues promptly and get out of debt while many collectors in Northern Ireland, on receiving their duplicates of assessment, copied the charges directly into the schedule of default on the ground that to send out demand notes would be a waste of time. I have studied the psychology of tax gathering both in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Naturally, anything that talks about animals excites my interest, and I can be forgiven for thinking that an Animals (Scotland) Bill had something to do with the protection of animals in Scotland. I discover that it is a Bill for the protection of human beings in Scotland, their interests and compensation, and that it deals with the relations between human beings and animals. That was also the case in respect of the English Animals Act 1971 which contains quite a number of provisions which are reflected in some of the clauses of this Bill.
I am not a stickler for uniformity by any means. But there is a good deal to be said for keeping many of the laws of England and Wales on the one hand, and Scotland on the other, as much in harmony as possible. When in government, I was always intrigued as to what it was that justified having a Scottish Bill. Was it because something was so separate, so distinctive and in some respects so unique that it required a separate measure, or was it just the sentiment and tradition of nationalism? There was a mixture of both. But the Secretary of State for Scotland wanted a Scottish Bill whenever he felt it could be justified if only to maintain the distinction between the two countries.
As a member of the Royal Commission on the constitution, I was the most ardent Scottish nationalist of all. I was extremely disappointed when the Scots did not turn out in sufficient numbers to gain their own Parliament. Their own legislature would have been a very suitable place to deal with Bills relating to Scotland. But that was not to be, and I do not know when it will happen.
Dealing with the comparatively small points which I wish to raise, I know that this Bill does not slavishly copy what is in the Act of 1971 applicable to England. But there is one matter that I cannot link up between the English Act of 1971 and this Bill. That relates to animals straying on the highway.
I represented a constituency in the West Riding of Yorkshire where problems arose on the use of land for grazing. I am sure such problems are reproduced in Scotland many times over; namely, the damage caused to animals straying off the moors on to the highway and becoming involved in road accidents which may lead to very serious damage and injuries to
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motorists. Section 8 of the Animals Act 1971 provides in the case of common land, or land which is situated in an area where fencing is not customary, or land which has a town or village green on it that the owner of the animals has the right to place the animals on that land. He is exempt from any claim for compensation for injury by a person who sustains damage on the road by collision with an animal.
I do not see that aspect reproduced in this Bill, nor am I aware of where it may be found in Scottish law. The Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 deals with some part of this problem in Section 98. It does not seem to deal with the question of actions for compensation. The Act provides for what a person who finds an animal straying on the road may do. This could be an important point, and I apologise if it is somewhere that neither I nor my Scottish connections have been able to discover.
Section 9 of the 1971 Act deals with the killing or injuring of dogs which are worrying livestock. This point does not seem to be dealt with in this Bill in the form in which it is covered in the English Bill.
The noble Earl, whom I am glad to follow on any matter, including this one, referred to the slightly different classification of dogs in Scotland compared to their descriptions in England—perhaps because the Scots regard dogs as dogs whereas in England they are very frequently regarded as pets, as the head of the household or something higher than most human beings for loyalty, affection and devotion and coming as near to the angels as anything can. It may be that. I apologise for not having let the Lord Advocate know of those two points, but I hope that he can clear them up for me because I think it is desirable to have these matters dealt with in as much agreement as possible between the two countries.
I never cease to marvel at the philosophy of the ownership of animals. Apparently every animal must have an owner. If it does not have an owner it is in the wild, stirring up emotions in the human breast about wild and dangerous animals. We do not talk about dangerous human beings in any kind of classification. We used to own slaves, we used to own human beings. That has gone long ago, though human beings were treated at one time, if they were the right colour, very much as animals are treated today. When we talk of bad housing conditions we say, "It is not fit for an animal". This human attitude towards animals is a philosophy well worth studying and one day I should like to be able to say much more about it. We have transferred some of the most evil things about human beings into animals, We say that people are as sly as foxes, as evil as snakes, as detestable as toads, and so on. We speak of people as leopards, bulls, cows, and so on. It is most interesting how we have found something in the animal world to which we can relate some of the most detestable aspects of human nature. That I think is one great slander on the animal kingdom. But I digress; I apologise.
I think I have discharged my duty to Scotland, slender though it may be, in those few remarks. I hope that the Lord Advocate will be able to satisfy those who are watching me closely to see whether I have vindicated the confidence placed in me to see whether the law of England and of Scotland in these two important respects is as close together as it ought to be.
6.44 p.m.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for explaining the legal purpose behind the Bill, which I must say I did not quite understand before he spoke. I understand now a few of the implications, particularly for agriculture. In agriculture we care for the animals as well as the pet lovers of England. We like to see the law able to protect animals as well as humans. We do not always speak badly of animals. We talk about being as brave as a lion. The noble Lord must agree that that is a complimentary expression.
I must also, if I may—greatly daring—correct the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, in that Clause 1 deals with animals on the road. Clause 1(5) states:
"Subsection (1) above shall not apply to injury or damage caused by the mere fact that an animal is present on a road or in any other place."
As Scotland has an enormous number of open roads where sheep may stray, that would be a protection to the owners of sheep if they were sued. But I do not see anything enabling them to sue people who kill those sheep in enormous numbers. I wonder whether there is any legal protection.
This is a personal case in that one of my men was killed in a road accident involving a Labrador dog which ran right across the road. In swerving to avoid it, he had an accident and was killed. It appears to me that the liability for keeping that dog under control should have some purpose in that the owner should to a degree perhaps have been held responsible. I know it is difficult, but keeping an animal such as a dog under control in cases involving road accidents is quite different from the problem of open roads in the Highlands. There, sheep do not dash on to the road, but they are there and people know that they are liable to see sheep. In fact, warnings are put up.
I wonder whether there is any protection in the exceptions in the case of dangerous animals. In certain cases one must reckon that a bull can be dangerous. I know the old definition about the ox that was known to push, but if a bull is disturbed by trespassers or innocent ramblers who do not know the form or if it is with a herd of cows it can be annoyed and think that it is defending its territory in cases where people are deliberately trespassing or do not really know what they are about. There are a great number of them.
The other point on which I should like clarification is what happens when somebody leaves gates open and a bull escapes from a field which may be placarded with warnings that people should not go in. It happens frequently. A bull can do damage not only by being aggressive but by being amorous. If a bull gets into a field of pedigree heifers of another breed it can do immense damage. I wonder whether the law makes any provision on that. I am sure the Lord Advocate has this matter at his fingertips and will be able to enlighten me about it.
It is very important that farmers in tourist areas can have some protection against interference in their affairs by other people. It is difficult. I know that a burglar cannot claim any damages if he is attacked by a dog when he is committing a criminal act, but what happens when people come to a door where there is a dog and it does not understand why they are there? I
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know that with postmen it is different. The poor postman has to put up with a lot. A dog may be highly suspicious of people who come along. Is the owner still liable? I wonder what category tame deer—that is, deer kept like domestic animals—would come into, because a field of domestic stags can be very dangerous indeed. I should be glad if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate could enlighten me on that.
On the question of controlling dogs which do enormous damage, I was very glad to see the definition in Clause 4(4) (b) (ii) about an animal which has been attacking a person or livestock and has not left the vicinity. It is very difficult to define that. I know that many people have been subjected to tremendous loss by dogs which get into a flock of pregnant ewes and harry them, so that they have a tremendous number of abortions. I assume that if a farmer finds a dog on the farm it will be regarded as being in the vicinity.
Up until now, a farmer has been at grave risk if he tried to tackle a dog which he knew would come back to harry or, in many cases, to attack and kill sheep. Perhaps there could be a little more explanation of exactly when he can protect himself if there is a dog which he strongly suspects or knows is responsible for damage. Those are practical points which particularly affect farmers in the Highlands and I should be happy to have an answer to some of the queries that I have raised.
6.51 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I am very happy to leave to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate the questions on law that appear to have been directed at him. This Bill is yet another occasion to pay tribute to the work of the Scottish Law Commission, which as usual has done very careful work and in my opinion has brought forward a Bill which will do a great deal to clarify the law in relation to this part of the activities of animals.
The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, is to be congratulated on bringing this Bill forward. He referred to the Roman law. He could have gone further back. The Old Testament has certain aspects which have been quoted within the past 20 years in Scottish courts. It is an advantage to get rid of the Winter Herding Act 1686, the language of which is not understood totally by every resident of Scotland. The liability is now relatively clear and the disappearance of the necessity to prove knowledge on the part of the keeper of the animal that the animal was dangerous will make it much easier for the person who goes to a house that has a dangerous dog—whether he be a postman or whatever—to have some hope of recovering if he is bitten.
If I may with some hesitation deal with the points of my noble friend Lord Houghton, it appears to me as a Scottish lawyer that the difference in approach in the highways provision is the classic difference between the approach of the English legal system and the approach of the Scottish legal system. The Scottish legal system does not define with which particular area it is going to deal but prefers to act on principle. I suggest that the comparative provisions in Section 9 of the Animals Act 1971 are to be found in Clause 4 of this Bill. But the difficulties raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, will always remain.

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As regards animals killed on roads, I should have thought the difficulty was not a question of the negligent driver but of the identification of the negligent driver. That applies also to the difficulty of people who leave gates open. It is a question of identification and finding somebody worth suing. In general, I welcome this Bill and wish it an easy passage.
6.55 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I am pleased on behalf of the Government to have an opportunity to declare the Government's support for this Bill. My noble friend has indicated in his very clear introduction to the Bill the purpose of it as simplifying and clarifying the existing law on civil liability in relation to animals in Scotland. Indeed, he has made it clear that the Bill is not intended to make any changes in the existing law of negligence, or indeed of nuisance.
At this point, I say in response to the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie—I feel rather like a student before a board of examiners this evening—that, in relation to, for instance, a dog causing a road accident, the case would be judged by the ordinary law of negligence if the owner of the dog could be traced and if it could be shown that in some way he had been in breach of a duty of care which any reasonable dog owner would have carried out. Similarly, with the noble Lord's amorous bull, or it may be an amorous dove, in those circumstances it would be a matter of fixing responsibility according to the rules of the law of negligence. As my noble friend made clear, the main object of the Bill is to replace the present rules of strict liability for injury or damage caused by animals with the new single principle of strict liability.
The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, raised an interesting point about separate legislation for Scotland, and to some extent he was answered by his noble friend Lord Morton of Shuna. In its report about this matter, the Scottish Law Commission deals with this issue in paragraph 1.10 and makes specific reference to the Animals Act 1971. It may be helpful to the House if I read out the last sentence of that paragraph which states:
"In fact as we mentioned, and as subsequent discussion will make clear, our view of this issue is that simply importing the Animals Act 1971 would not be satisfactory",
and the issue was what reform should he adopted in Scotland.
I think I can assure the noble Lord that the example of the Animals Act was indeed before the Law Commission, but it felt that it was dealing with a reform in a Scottish context which should be provided with a distinct Scottish response, based upon the principles of law as they have been understood there and which, I should add, are protected by the Treaty of Union.
Noble Lords have already gauged that the present law is separately dealt with in two separate statutes. The first is the old Winter Herding Act 1686, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Morton, pointed out, is very difficult to understand because of its archaic structure and language. Indeed, some of the language has recently been found to be incomprehensible by courts which have had the problem of trying to construe it.
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Furthermore, because of that its application is obscure in many instances and it is not clear what defences are available. Secondly, the Dogs Acts of 1906 to 1928 provide for compensation where dogs worry livestock or poultry. Although of more recent origin, this legislation also fails to make clear which defences are available and there are also problems concerning the definition of poultry in those Acts. Finally, there is the matter to which my noble friend referred—the scienter rule which is of very ancient derivation and was probably imported through Roman law into the common law of Scotland. It has been broadened in a way which makes it subject to many exceptions, and it is very complicated and difficult to apply in practice.
The problems are amply set out in the Scottish Law Commission Report. I should not wish to detail them today. However, it was apparent from the detailed and comprehensive study of the Scottish Law Commission regarding these three separate sources of the rules of strict liability that reform of the law was necessary, at least for the purpose of making the law more simple and clear. Consultations which were based upon the commission's provisional proposals for reform showed a consensus in favour of retaining strict liability in relation to certain recognised high-risk animals.
The manner in which the Law Commission dealt with high-risk animals has been expatiated upon by my noble friend in his opening remarks. The Government are satisfied that that manner is entirely appropriate and based upon the fullest consultation. The Bill will of course allow for flexible extension of the rule of strict liability by the courts to other animals. Therefore, to that extent it has an advantage over the present state of the law.
Perhaps at this stage I may deal with certain other points which noble Lords have raised. The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, asked about the question of animals on roads. I confirm entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, said in response to that. I think that the point is comprehensively dealt with in subsection (5) of Clause 1, bearing in mind that this is a reform of the law in relation to actions of damages. The noble Lord also asked about dogs worrying sheep. Again I would simply confirm the response of the noble Lord, Lord Morton, which is to be found in Clause 4 of this Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Mackie, asked me questions concerning certain further points apart from those to which I have already responded. He asked about the instance of a dog attacking a visitor to a house and whether the owner was liable for any injury. The answer to that is yes. The Bill deems dogs to be liable to attack persons in terms of Clause 1(3)(a). There was again the question of dogs worrying flocks or herds and causing abortions. The response would be the same in that case. I believe that the noble Lord will understand that the real problem is the one to which the noble Lord. Lord Morton, referred, and that is a question of identification. However, Clause 7 of the Bill provides that the definition of injury should include both abortion and loss of produce. I think that is a clear indication that the ground of damage would be one which could be established by reference to the Bill if the owner was identified.
The question of straying animals and the leaving open of gates was raised by the noble Lord as well. It

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may well be that the keeper or owner of the animal might have a claim against the third party who left the gate open under the normal rules of the law of negligence. However, I think he will fully understand that the most difficult matter is to identify the person who has been responsible for leaving the gate open.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, my question was this: If it could be proved that some person unknown had opened the gate, would the owner still be liable for the damage done?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I should not wish to give more than my personal opinion, which is not to be regarded as a legal opinion. My recollection of the ordinary rules of negligence is that if the gate was amply secured and plainly intended to be kept closed, and if the owner could establish that it was not he who had opened the gate, he could not be said to be in breach of a duty of care and therefore could not be liable. However, I hesitate in that I am giving an opinion off the cuff and I am no longer in private practice.
The last point put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, was the question of a person who suffers injury and who is not a burglar. In response to that, perhaps I may say that the terms of Clause 2(1)(c)(i) may be the answer: If a person is expressly or impliedly authorised to be present, then the defence of trespass cannot be involved to avoid strict liability on the owner's part.
I hope that I have dealt with the questions which your Lordships have raised. The debate serves to illustrate that this is a Bill which will perform a most useful service in clarifying and simplifying an area of law in which there are considerable difficulties and ambiguities. The approach adopted in the Bill is likely to ensure reasonable certainty by imposing strict liability only where consultations have shown that a public consensus exists and where most cases of serious damage or injury caused by animals occur. The Bill leaves it to the courts to decide on extension of strict liability to other species on a case by case basis; and it leaves unaffected the general remedy of proof of negligence for other cases.
The Bill is based upon the draft which was attached to the report of the Scottish Law Commission. I think that the care with which it has been prepared is reflected if one looks at the definition of the word "animal" in Clause 7, which is specifically declared not to include viruses, bacteria, algae, fungi or protozoa. As a townsman, I should have liked to ask my noble friend whether he could help me with a name appearing in Clause 1(3)(b) of the Bill. That relates to animals in the course of foraging and it includes reference to "hinnies".
I therefore commend the report of the Law Commission to your Lordships as providing a very useful introduction to this area of law and also as a clear and persuasive argument for the need for reform; and I also commend this Bill. It will, however, leave the legal problem of the gate crashing, stair climbing, floor bursting, tap turning cow which emerged in Inverness in 1955 to be solved in certain circumstances under the ordinary law. But my own
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reading of the commission's recommendations, and, indeed, my noble friend's clear advocacy of the Bill, compel me to commend the Bill to your Lordships.
7.10 p.m.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble and learned friend very much for supporting the Bill on behalf of the Scottish Office and for answering so far as I can see practically all the questions of any major consequence that have been raised. I should like just to emphasise a point that has already been made. The law of negligence remains. This is quite clearly what would apply on roads where strict liability does not apply. If one put strict liability on the open roads in Scotland, they would have to be fenced. That is absolutely impossible. It would be wrong to impose strict liability on unfenced ground. If you could identify the person on the road, which is extremely improbable, and if he were drunk, reckless or deliberately trying to kill sheep, he would quite clearly be liable.
The noble Lord, Lord Mackie, raised the question of deer. He appeared to have some very wild stags in a field. This is a new one to me and I must admit that I had not thought about it. Let me say straight away that it obviously falls into Clause 1(1)(b). The animal has physical attributes, apparently, and habits likely to injure people. It need not be in the strict list; it falls into that category automatically. If these animals were open to the public they would clearly make the owner liable.
The noble Lord mentioned the difficult question of bulls, about which I am sure he knows far more than I do. I am given to understand that by and large the anxiety of the public about bulls is probably rather exaggerated. Only a few breeds of bull are likely to be dangerous. I refer to the Ayrshires and Friesians, and these are known by the farmers. It is up to them to take precautions. I do not know that they should be added to the list. The farmers know that these are dangerous. They certainly have the physical attributes though not very often, but sometimes, the habits which make them likely to injure people. They would then quite likely fall under Clause 1(1) (b). I wonder whether it is necessary to make any special provision in the Bill.
Perhaps I may say to my noble friend Lord Houghton that we always welcome Englishmen who take the trouble to talk about Scotland. What we object to is when they completely ignore it. He asked: "Why should Scotland have a separate law?" The answer is that this comes under the terms of the Union. The law, the Church and the banks are what we retain. It is true that we do not have much of the banks now but we still retain something of the Church. That is the simple answer and I think one would find some cases of Scots law rather difficult to try in English courts.
The noble Lord raised the question of the highways. I think we have dealt with that point. It is true that we can, if necessary, add to the list of dangerous animals under Clause 1(1) (b). I would say that the Bill gives help to animals in the sense that their position is clear. The Bill makes their owner or keeper responsible for what happens.
One important and serious matter is sheep worrying. I do not think it is right to say that you can

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go around shooting dogs whenever you feel inclined to do so. That would be totally wrong. If a dog worries a sheep and the only way to protect the sheep is to shoot that dog, that is fair and proper. But where dogs are liable to come back surely the answer is to go to the owner, which would not be too difficult in most Highland areas, and say, "Look here, you've got to keep this dog properly under control or I will shoot it next time I see it". That is the proper conduct, but to open wider the right to shoot dogs would be quite wrong.
I think I have answered most of the questions. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at sixteen minutes past seven o'clock.

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