Sitting of 14 April 1986

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions

  National Coal Board
  Mr. Neil Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Energy when he last met the chairman of the National Coal Board; and what matters were discussed.
  The Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Peter Walker): I meet the chairman of the National Coal Board regularly to discuss a wide range of issues concerning the coal industry.
  Mr. Hamilton: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Has he taken the opportunity recently to discuss with the chairman of the NCB the future of opencast mining and whether, in the context of the falls in oil prices recently, he feels it necessary to concentrate as much as possible on the lowest possible cost of output? Against that background, would it not be a good thing to remove the restrictions that apply to the small licensed operators in the private sector in conformity with the Monopolies and Mergers Commission's report three years ago? Why has the Department made no move in that direction during the ensuing period?
  Mr. Walker: These matters are discussed with the NCB, which has to market the total production of coal. Mr. MacGregor has made no such suggestion to me.
  Mr. Mason: Has the Secretary of State raised the issue of bad investment decisions by the NCB? Is he aware that in the area that I repesent vast sums were spent on modernising Redbrook colliery, both on the surface and underground, and that the work force of 1,800 is now fewer than 500 men? The future of the colliery is in doubt. Only six years ago the NCB invested £30 million in driving Kinsley drift, which was hailed as a wonder pit, but last week the NCB announced its closure. Is there no reason for an independent inquiry to be held into the investment decisions at those two pits and others in the coalfield, where vast sums have been lost to the British taxpayer?
  Mr. Walker: If the right hon. Gentleman wants an independent inquiry, he should not confine it to the two pits to which he has referred. The inquiry should cover the entire industry and encompass other comparative forms of energy. He will find that when the previous Labour Government were in power—and they invested nowhere near as much as the present Government—many such decisions were taken.
  Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson: As lower oil prices will inevitably increase competition among world coal producers, and as Britain has the largest coal industry in
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  the EEC, has the chairman given any indication of any moves to encourage sales, especially in Europe, where some currencies are now relatively stronger against sterling?
  Mr. Walker: Yes, Sir. I know that the management of the NCB has taken an especial interest in improving its international marketing position. At present, competition with low-price oil is an embarrassment and a difficulty for coal industries thoroughout Europe, including our own. It is difficult to predict the future price of oil. I assure my hon. Friend that every consideration is being given by the NCB and the Government to the range of options before us.
  Mr. Dormand: Does the Secretary of State agree that industrial relations in the mining industry are the worst they have been for many years and that this has been caused largely by the actions of the chairman of the NCB during and since the strike came to an end? Will he seek to hasten Mr. MacGregor's retirement, while realising that much more than that needs to be done? Will he, for example, have meetings with the full board of the NCB and stress that maximum efficiency will not be obtained until we achieve the goodwill of the miners?
  Mr. Walker: I hope the hon. Gentleman recognises that productivity in the coal industry is far higher now than it has ever been since nationalisation. Therefore, there must be some appreciation of a management which has achieved productivity levels and given the industry a better chance of surviving and competing than ever before.
  Mr. Robert B. Jones: Will my right hon. Friend now answer the question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton) and say what discussions he will institute with the chairman of the National Coal Board about the Monopolies and Mergers Commission's report on opencast mining?
  Mr. Walker: I am aware that a number of my hon. Friends have been lobbied by the opencast industry on this issue. I hope that the industry will recognise that coal marketing by the NCB is done in its totality and that 75 per cent. of coal in this country goes to the Central Electricity Generating Board. When seen in its total context, it might be that the package advocated by Ian MacGregor and the National Coal Board has some sanity and sense.
  Mr. Hardy: Does the Secretary of State accept that the NCB could sell 6 million tonnes of coal to western Europe if western Europe was persuaded that it ought not to rely on dumped imports from outside the Community? Will he take the point expressed by the hon. Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) and ensure that far more vigour is used to secure that market for the British coal industry, in the light of the investment that the Government claim they have put into it?
  Mr. Walker: It is true that the NCB has taken a great interest—far greater than ever before—in trying to establish export markets. It is not just imported coal that is the competition at present. The considerable lowering of the price of oil has created considerable difficulties.
  Mr. Budgen: Is my right hon. Friend desirous of seeing all imports of coal excluded from this countrya and from all the countries of the EEC?
  Mr. Walker: No, Sir.
  Mr. Orme: When the Secretary of State talks about improved productivity in the mining industry, which we welcome, will he ensure that the fluctuations in oil prices are not used against the mining industry, certainly by the CEGB, as it is currently speculating? Secondly, may I reinforce the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, Central (Mr. Mason) regarding the Kinsley drift mine and call for an independent inquiry?
  Mr. Walker: Under the terms of the nationalisation of electricity, brought about by a Labour Government, the CEGB has a statutory duty to produce electricity at the most competitive and economic price. Therefore, if one criticises the CEGB for pursuing that objective, one is criticising the legislation originally passed by a Labour Government.

  Energy Conservation
  Mr. Patrick Thompsonasked the Secretary of State for Energy what discussions he has had with the Association for the Conservation of Energy; and if he will make a statement.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. David Hunt): My right hon. Friend and I have had a number of discussions with the chairman of the Association for the Conservation of Energy and much appreciate the association's contribution to Energy Efficiency Year.
  Mr. Thompson: I am pleased that my hon. Friend has had regular discussions with the chairman in Energy Efficiency Year. Bearing in mind the £400 million that has been spent by the Government on helping people with their fuel costs, will he take urgent steps to find methods by which homes up and down the country can be insulated to higher standards so that we can improve warmth and cut costs in the future?
  Mr. Hunt: I agree with my hon. Friend that it is important to do just that. That is why my right hon. Friend has substantially increased the number of voluntary insulation projects, which have now insulated over 150,000 homes, especially those of the elderly and disabled.
  Mr. Wallace: Have the Secretary of State and the Minister had the opportunity to discuss with the Association for the Conservation of Energy the success of the schemes in Northern Ireland, where there is a 30 per cent. grant for companies investing in energy efficiency measures? Has he had any representations about extending that scheme to other parts of the United Kingdom?
  Mr. Hunt: I had an opportunity of talking to the ACE seminar on insulation in Portsmouth last Tuesday, but the matter was not raised with me on that occasion. However, I shall look into it further.
  Mr. Gerald Howarth: Is my hon. Friend aware that such has been the success of the Association for the Conservation of Energy that it has been invited by the Government of Canada to see whether it is possible to institute such a scheme in that country?
  Mr. Hunt: My hon. Friend is right to stress the importance of ACE. The association and its members have been extremely enthusiastic in supporting Energy Efficiency Year.
  Mr. Rowlands: Is not the association also the strongest advocate of placing specific duties on the gas and electricity industries in relation to energy conservation? Why have the Government repeatedly refused to consider that constructive and sensible set of proposals?
  Mr. Hunt: The hon. Gentleman has overlooked the fact that, after privatisation, the independent regulator—the Director General of Gas Supply—will have a duty to promote the efficient use of gas.

  Motor Fuel
  Mr. Chopeasked the Secretary of State for Energy what steps he takes to monitor the pump price of motor fuel.
  The Minister of State, Department of Energy (Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith): Sample data on oil product prices are collected by my Department on a weekly and monthly basis.
  Mr. Chope: Does my right hon. Friend agree that some major petrol companies are still charging as much as 10p per gallon more than they need to? Will he take this opportunity to pay tribute to the independent retailers for the great work that they are doing in bringing down the price of petrol to the ordinary consumer?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: My hon. Friend rightly draws attention to the fact that it is highly significant that there is a big variety in petrol prices. It is up to the motorist to demonstrate that he believes the price is too high by purchasing his petrol from the cheapest source.
  Mr. Skinner: It is a funny sort of Government who are telling the people involved in the oil industry that they cannot interfere in the price of their fuel, yet, when it came to gas and electricity, the Government were prepared to tax both. Why do they have double standards?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: For the simple reason that the oil industry is in private hands.
  Mr. Beaumont-Dark: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important that petrol companies' pricing policy should respond to the market more regularly than it does? Would it not be easier for the companies if successive Chancellors did not use the oil prices as a milch cow so that, whenever the oil price seems to be coming down, Chancellors try to get their hands on what is left?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: No doubt my hon. Friend will direct his views to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I agree that there is good reason for lower petrol prices now, as several companies have, perfectly properly and correctly shown the way. There is scope for oil companies, and I hope that they will respond to it.
  Mr. Rogers: Further to the Minister's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), is he saying that the Government give special treatment to energy sources that are in private hands compared to those in public hands? Is he saying that there are two levels of Government evaluation in the industry?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: In response to two earlier questions and as my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Chope) pointed out in his

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  supplementary question, I said that we have already seen the scope for independent companies to charge lower prices, for the benefit of the consumer.
  Sir Anthony Meyer: Does my right hon. Friend find it as odd as I do that petrol prices along the motorways are virtually identical at every pump? Is he satisfied that competition is as it should be there?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I have not personally made a study of petrol prices along motorways, but I notice that along other major routes one finds a big variation between one petrol station and another—even between those in quite close proximity. If my hon. Friend has evidence of any unfairness in competition, I hope that he will draw it to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry or the Office of Fair Trading. There are powers in the OFT to deal with any anti-competitive action.
  Mr. Orme: Does the Minister agree that some of the prices that are now being charged are a scandal? What action will he take to deal with the problem?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: As other hon. Members have said, and as I have described, there is a wide variety of petrol prices, and the consumer has the opportunity to exercise his choice. That demonstrates the freedom that the consumer has.

  Energy Efficiency
  Mrs. Roeasked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will report on the progress of the energy efficiency demonstration scheme.
  Mr. Peter Walker: I am pleased to report that the energy efficiency demonstration scheme achieved its target of stimulating annual energy savings worth £120 million by the beginning of this year.
  Mrs. Roe: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the new techniques and technologies applied in this demonstration project will be welcomed? Can he give the number of replications that have taken place? Will the Hertfordshire county council waste-derived fuel project qualify for grant under this scheme?
  Mr. Walker: I cannot answer the latter question without studying the application. In terms of duplication, I am pleased to say that the energy-saving technologies pioneered through the scheme have been taken up in more than 5,600 different locations in the United Kingdom.
  Mr. Peter Bruinvels: Being a great fan of energy efficiency and how energy is saved, can my right hon. Friend tell the House how often local authorities, major businesses and the captains of industry are approached to establish what savings they could make under the scheme? Large savings could be made through this important project.
  Mr. Walker: In terms of industry, the early morning breakfast special briefing sessions have been a great success. In terms of local authorities, LAMSAC has made an analysis showing that local authorities could save more than £100 million a year by applying basic energy efficiency. I am glad to say that many local authorities are doing this, and I hope that many more will follow.

  Nuclear Power Industry
  Mr. Proctorasked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the safety record of the nuclear power industry.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Alastair Goodlad): The nuclear power industry has an excellent record on site and environmental safety. The Government and the industry are determined that the existing high standards should be upheld and improved further.
  Mr. Proctor: Does my hon. Friend agree that nuclear power is the safest source of energy known to mankind?
  Mr. Goodlad: My hon. Friend is right. Nuclear power is not only the cheapest and cleanest, but the safest form of electricity generation.
  Mr. Rogers: Does the Minister accept that the safety record of some nuclear power installations is appalling? In addition to the present crisis in the industry caused by accidents, does he accept that the long-term effects of low-level radiation are severe and have not been quantified?
  Mr. Goodlad: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. Recent incidents have been exaggerated out of all proportion. None has presented a radiological hazard to the public. Each incident is rigorously investigated to see whether any lessons may be learnt.
  Mr. Hannam: Is not the problem one of communication and a lack of understanding of the definitions used in the nuclear industry? Will my hon. Friend urge the new chairman of British Nuclear Fuels Ltd. to evolve a better descriptive system of radioactivity so that people are not scared by the stories spread about fairly low levels of radioactive waste emissions?
  Mr. Goodlad: I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of communication. The new chairman of BNFL is extremely keen, as was his predecessor, to give simple explanations about the nuclear industry, without any sacrifice of accuracy.
  Mr. Hardy: Is the Minister telling the House that the system of inspection is thorough? Is he giving the House an assurance that the number of inspectors supervising the nuclear power industry is adequate in number and in qualification?
  Mr. Goodlad: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Chapman: Is my hon. Friend aware that the recent report of the Select Committee on the Environment expressing concern about some aspects of radioactive waste management was not concerned with all aspects of nuclear power, and that those who construe it as an attack on the nuclear industry are telling falsehoods?
  Mr. Goodlad: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is a distinguished member of that Select Committee, for his clarification.

  National Coal Board
  Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Energy whether the terms of appointment of the chairman of the National Coal Board contain any conditions relating to the publication by him of any book relating to his period in office.
  Mr. David Hunt: No, Sir.
  Mr. Dalyell: Is it true that about six months before Cortonwood, in the autumn of 1983, Mr. MacGregor and the Prime Minister discussed the scenario and politics of a long drawn out coal strike? That is a simple straightforward question.
  Mr. Hunt: No, Sir.
  Mr. Marlow: Will my hon. Friend, even at this late stage, seek to include in the terms of appointment of the next chairman of the National Coal Board a requirement, given my hon. Friend's enthusiasm for privatisation, that we should move towards some areas of privatisation within the National Coal Board?
  Mr. Hunt: I should make it clear to my hon. Friend that the Government have no plans for privatisation. Details of Mr. MacGregor's terms of appointment and remuneration are set out in the National Coal Board's annual report and accounts.
  Mr. Douglas: In view of the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), will the Minister give an assurance that there is no hangover in Scotland of the vindictive attitude of Mr. MacGregor, especially in relation to the re-engagement of victimised mineworkers? Will he give assurances that the management structure, particularly in Scotland, will be subject to an independent investigation?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The question relates to a book. Is all this to be in the book?
  Mr. Douglas: I was referring to a hangover of the vindictive attitude of Mr. MacGregor, apparently displayed in the book.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked his question. I think that we have grasped it.
  Mr. Hunt: The hon. Gentleman is inaccurate in his description of the attitude. In any event, it is a matter for the National Coal Board.
  Mr. Eadie: Why is the Minister being so coy with the House when he knows that it has been well trailered that Mr. MacGregor will get £100,000 for writing the book, in which he boasts and brags that, in the fictional style of Rambo, he was able to win the miners dispute? Why should the most expensive chairman of any nationalised industry be allowed such personal aggrandisement?
  Mr. Hunt: The hon. Gentleman is incorrect in almost all of that question.

  Electricity Generation
  Mr. Teddy Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Energy what percentage of electricity in the United Kingdom is produced by nuclear power stations; and what plans he has to increase the percentage.
  Mr. Goodlad: Twenty per cent. of the electricity available from the United Kingdom public supply system was generated by nuclear power in 1985. The nuclear share is expected to rise to about 25 per cent. by the end of the decade. Thereafter, the contribution from new nuclear capacity will depend on the decision of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on Sizewell B and upon decisions on subsequent applications to build new stations.
  Mr. Taylor: As it is clearly in the national interest to expand the nuclear power building programme, will the Minister discuss with his colleagues how to reduce the
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  crazy and absurd planning and inquiry delays which take place when a station is planned, especially as the Government have found it possible to promote the building of a Channel tunnel without any public inquiry at all?
  Mr. Goodlad: Planning matters are for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. As the House knows, the Government have made it clear on a number of occasions that the Sizewell inquiry should be full and wide ranging. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will lose no time in reaching a decision once the inspector has presented his report.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: When nuclear systems at nuclear plants are found to be deficient, should not the Government ensure that the equipment is modernised and changed as soon as possible?
  Mr. Goodlad: I know that the Central Electricity Generating Board would agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, as I do.
  Sir Trevor Skeet: As it takes about eight years to construct a nuclear power station and many of the Magnox stations are due for retirement in the 1990s or probably shortly afterwards, will not the 20 per cent. proportion fall rather than rise? Does my hon. Friend agree that it is most important for the Government to press on with more nuclear power stations?
  Mr. Goodlad: The Government have made clear their commitment to nuclear power. As I have said, future power station order decisions must await the outcome of the Sizewell inquiry.
  Mr. Skinner: What is the point of concentrating on nuclear power when the North sea contains gas and oil and when we have 300 years of coal under the ground? Why continue with this folly?
  Mr. Goodlad: As the hon. Gentleman knows, nuclear power is cheaper, cleaner and safer than other forms of energy. The Government, like their predecessors, believe that it is in the national interest to have a range of supply options. As the hon. Gentleman also knows, the Government are heavily committed to the coal industry, as evidenced by our enormous investment in it.

  Coal Industry
  Mr. Robert B. Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Energy what are the latest available productivity figures for the Nottinghamshire area of the National Coal Board; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Merchantasked the Secretary of State for Energy what are the latest available productivity figures for the National Coal Board; and if he will make statement.
  Mr. Ashbyasked the Secretary of State for Energy what are the latest available productivity figures for the south midlands area of the National Coal Board; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Peter Walker: The National Coal Board's average revenue deep-mined productivity in the week ending 22 March was 3·08 tonnes per manshift. The corresponding figures for the Nottinghamshire and south Midlands areas were 3·38 tonnes per manshift and 3·12

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  tonnes per manshift respectively. Continued growth in productivity is the key to providing the coal industry with a secure future.
  Mr. Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree that co-operation rather than confrontation is the answer, in the interests of consumers, miners and the board alike, and do not these figures clearly show the benefits that can be gained from such co-operation?
  Mr. Walker: I do agree. These remarkable figures are far better than any that have been available since nationalisation.
  Mr. Rogers: Does the Secretary of State accept that in most circumstances productivity is a function of investment? Does he agree also that if the same investment were made in the south Wales coalfield as has been made in other parts of the United Kingdom, productivity would be at the same levels? I am thinking in particular of the Margam new mine. Ian MacGregor gave a promise during the miners' strike that at the end of the strike the investment would be available for the opening of the Margam new mine. Is Ian MacGregor a liar, or will the NCB now invest in the Margam new mine?
  Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman should study the facts. As a result of "Plan for Coal" produced by the last Labour Government, the investment took place but the productivity did not. I am pleased to say that productivity has now taken place in south Wales as well as everywhere else.
  Mr. Andy Stewart: In view of my right hon. Friend's information about the productivity achieved in Nottinghamshire, largely due to the close co-operation between management and the Union of Democratic Miners, will my right hon. Friend advise the chairman of the NCB to leave Nottinghamshire with a lasting memory of him by negotiating with the UDM a permanent lower retirement age of 55?
  Mr. Walker: I cannot commit the board to the details of its negotiations. That must be a matter for the board.
  Mr. O'Brien: In the three comparisons that the right hon. Gentleman gave, is the gigajoule value the same in each case?
  Mr. Walker: I cannot say, but I shall inform the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Gerald Howarth: Is my right hon. Friend also aware that in the western area productivity records are being broken? Will he join me in congratulating the miners in my constituency in the Lea Hall pit, as well as in the Littleton pit in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South, (Mr. Cormack)? Does he agree that security for those men can best be achieved through increased productivity?
  Mr. Walker: Yes. As we saw throughout the coal dispute, many Tory Members of Parliament are now representing mining constituencies. Given the increased earnings of miners during the period of this Government, I hope that after the next election even more Tory Members of Parliament will be representing such constituencies.
  Mr. Wrigglesworth: Does the Secretary of State agree that productivity in the best pits has reached 5 tonnes per shift per man? Does he also agree that the increase in
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  productivity to which he has rightly paid tribute has largely been reached as a result of the closure of unproductive capacity? Will he ensure that productivity in the pits that remain open moves up to the best levels available?
  Mr. Walker: The improvement in productivity as a result of the closure of uneconomic pits is a factor, but some pits that have been major loss-makers for years are now reaching productivity levels that mean they will be able to survive.
  Mr. Eadie: The right hon. Gentleman saw fit to refer to "Plan for Coal", and he will recall that "Plan for Coal" referred to fluctuations in the market in relation to oil. Can he give an assurance that the miners who are now achieving record production will not be subject to the fluctuations in the market and that the CEGB will not be allowed to bring in massive coal imports?
  Mr. Walker: The future for coal, oil, gas or any other form of energy depends on the manner in which energy for this country can be produced at competitive prices. I am delighted that the enormous improvement in productivity under this Government gives the coal industry a better chance than it would otherwise have had.

  Heat and Power Projects
  Mr. Rostasked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list the combined heat and power projects which the Central Electricity Generating Board and area boards have adopted and supported, under the provisions of the Energy Act 1983.
  Mr. Goodlad: This is primarily a matter for the boards themselves. I understand that since May 1983 they have appraised 19 potential combined heat and power projects, of which six remain under active consideration. The chairman of the Electricity Council has told me that boards will continue their efforts to identify economic CHP projects in line with the provisions of the Energy Act 1983 and their other statutory duties.
  Mr. Rost: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that where independent feasibility studies conducted by city CHP consortia show a rate of return as good as or better than electricity-only new power stations, CHP schemes will be adopted and supported?
  Mr. Goodlad: The Government want to see the development of CHP schemes that make commercial sense. That is why the Energy Act 1983 placed a duty on electricity boards to adopt and support viable projects and created a guaranteed market for the sale of electricity from CHP schemes. The Act provides that boards may adopt and support only those projects that meet their financial criteria. Boards apply the same financial criteria to potential investment in CHP as to their other expenditure. As I have said, six schemes are under scrutiny at the moment. It is for boards to evaluate these and consider what part they should play consistent with their statutory duties.
  Mr. Frank Cook: Will the Minister tell the House the size of the annual budget allocated for research, development, demonstration and monitoring of CHP? Will he compare that with the annual budget for other alternative renewable and clean sources of energy?
  Mr. Goodlad: In addition to what I have said, I should say that we have made available grant-aid of £250,000

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  each to consortia from Leicester, Edinburgh and Belfast towards the preparation of prospectuses for CHP district heating schemes.

  Coal Industry (Investment)
  Mr. Barronasked the Secretary of State for Energy if, when he next meets the chairman of the National Coal Board, he will raise with him the board's new coalfield investment programme.
  Mr. Peter Walker: I meet the chairman of the National Coal Board regularly to discuss all aspects of the industry, including investment programmes.
  Mr. Barron: Can the Secretary of State clarify the position about new investment in the British coalfields? Can he tell us about the new investment that is proposed for the south Warwickshire coalfield? I wrote to the right hon. Gentleman on 26 March asking him to clarify a matter concerning three of his right hon. Friends who put their names to a document aimed at stopping investment in the new pit that is proposed for the south Warwickshire coalfield. We hear Minister after Minister saying that the Government are committed to the coal industry and to its future. Will he clarify this with the Coal Board? Even if I cannot get a reply to my letter, that might let us know exactly what the Government have in store for the British coalfields.
  Mr. Walker: The Government are spending £2 million a day on the coal industry, and that is rather more than any Labour Government ever spent. I have not received any proposal from the Coal Board about the project in south Warwickshire. The board is presently conducting environmental impact assessments.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: Having seen for himself the problems created by a previous Agriculture Minister who urged farmers to produce more food at three times the price at which the public could buy it from abroad, will my right hon. Friend be cautious and not encourage the National Coal Board to do exactly the same thing by producing coal at 60 per cent. more than the price at which we can buy it from Australia?
  Mr. Walker: I am sorry if my hon. Friend regrets that Britain attained a tolerable self-sufficiency in food. I notice that he would prefer to import food rather than that we should produce it ourselves.
  Mr. Allen McKay: When the Secretary of State is looking at new investment, will he also look at old investment? Does he agree that capital investment 10 year ago on plans that have been destroyed by the Government and the Coal Board is now affecting too few men? Will he look at Redbrook, where manpower has been run down from 1,250 to 488? Does he not agree that in such cases the capital debt should be wiped out?
  Mr. Walker: Capital debts have to be reviewed over a period of time. Investment in our coal industry dwarfs investment in that industry in the whole of the rest of western Europe.

  Coal (Opencast Production)
  Mr. Fallonasked the Secretary of State for Energy whether he will ask the National Coal Board to expand opencast production.
  Mr. David Hunt: As my right hon. Friend has said, opencast coal has an important role in securing a healthy future for the coal industry. It is for the National Coal Board to decide the level of opencast production necessary for its market requirements.
  Mr. Fallon: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the northeast we have been denied low-cost production and much needed jobs by county councils acting as wholly-owned subsidiaries of the National Union of Mineworkers and by a Coal Board that balances opencast mining against deep mine production? Has the time not come to free opencast from the dead hand of Hobart House and allow it to expand as one of our growth industries?
  Mr. Hunt: As my hon. Friend is aware, the changes to licensing arrangements would require legislation, for which there are no plans at present. The existing arrangements can work well if they are used properly.
  Mr. Eadie: Will the Minister bear in mind that the problem about opencast coal mining is not just that it causes noise and visual pollution, but that it is a form of vandalism, in that good seams cannot be worked and are sterilised and lost as a result of some opencast operations, which is wasteful?
  Mr. Hunt: The hon. Gentleman must be aware that many deep mines depend on opencast production for blending to provide an acceptable product that customers, particularly in electricity generation and the industrial market, want.

  THE ARTS

    Sponsorship
    Mr. Alan Howarthasked the Minister for the Arts what assessment he has made of the implications for sponsorship of the arts of the provisions in the Budget relating to charitable giving.
    The Minister for the Arts (Mr. Richard Luce): I believe that sponsorship should increase significantly because businesses will now be able to make one-off donations, including the support of capital projects.
    Mr. Howarth: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government's achievement in increasing spending on the arts by some 10 per cent. in real terms since 1979 has stimulated demand for additional expenditure? Does he also agree that additional funding for the arts should come from a variety of sources and that through the incentives in the Budget for charitable giving the Government are fulfilling their duty to provide a sound framework for a worthwhile encouragement for support of the arts?
    Mr. Luce: I agree with my hon. Friend. In addition to the basic funding that the Government provide, we must look to the private sector to help fuel the expansion of the arts. There is an increasing demand for arts activities. My hon. Friend is right to say that the relief provided in the Budget will be a strong encouragement to arts bodies to raise extra funds.
    Mr. Cormack: Did my right hon. Friend see the all-party motion supporting the new measures introduced in the Budget? Is he aware that there is still some doubt as to what these mean? Does he have it in mind to produce some easy to understand document that can be distributed?
    Mr. Luce: I welcome the all-party support for the Budget changes. As to getting the information across, there still has to be the debate in the Finance Committee. We have strong views as to how we can educate businesses in the possibilities of giving and persuade arts bodies to become more professional in getting their case across. Hon. Members can do a great deal to help.
    Mr. Buchan: The Minister is reverting to the proposition that he will rely on private sponsorship and similar means to bring about expansion, and not provide public funding. Given the background of cuts—some £19 million was lost by the abolition of the GLC and the metropolitan counties that has not been refunded—are we not looking at a standstill in public funding and relying on private funding, which will lead to a decline?
    Mr. Luce: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The worst forecasts about disaster in the arts have been proved to be wrong and things are going well for arts organisations. As to the Government's policy, we are committed to keeping up our support for the arts. However, for expansion and growth there should be a partnership between the Government, local authorities and the private sector, and the private sector can play an even more prominent role than it does.
    Mr. Greenwayasked the Minister for the Arts if he will estimate the amount of money by which the arts will benefit as a result of the Budget; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Luce: That depends entirely on the energy of the arts bodies and the generosity with which people respond to the new opportunities. The Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts has estimated that the additional figure might be £10 million. I believe that this could be much more.
    Mr. Greenway: Is not the sky the limit for the arts as a result of the Budget, and should not arts bodies be aiming for £50 million at least? Is it not urgent for my right hon. Friend to set up the advisory body that he has already mentioned to instruct and assist arts bodies in promoting themselves, whatever they are doing, in a way that brings in money?
    Mr. Luce: The arts bodies must be encouraged to be as competitive and professional as possible in getting across the activities that they have to sell to the public and to persuade businesses to fund them. We shall do all that we can to help them in that process. The scope is enormous and the extent to which we succeed in raising extra money depends upon the professionalism and enthusiasm of arts bodies in Britain.
    Mr. Dormand: How much importance does the right hon. Gentleman place on the appreciation of film in the arts? In view of the devastating legislation which the Government have carried in this Parliament against the film industry, will he give an assurance that he will do all that he can to make public money available for the appreciation of film, particularly as Britain is now producing some of the best films in the world?
    Mr. Luce: As the hon. Gentleman must know, the Government already give over £9 million to the British Film Institute, which is considerable support on the part of the taxpayer and is of great encouragement to the film industry. Indeed, in the hon. Gentleman's area in Tyne and Wear support for the film industry is strong.
    Mr. Dalyell: The Minister referred to his strong views on private funding. Will he tell us exactly what those views are?
    Mr. Luce: I thought that I had made them plain, but I am delighted to have another opportunity. The private sector can play an increasingly important role in helping arts bodies in addition to the basic funding provided by the taxpayer, and, indeed, by the ratepayer and local authorities. The changes provided for in the Budget will give every encouragement to that. With the Government's sponsorship incentive scheme we have a wide range of incentives to increase support from the private sector.
    Mr. Jesselasked the Minister for the Arts what effects he expects the 1986 Budget proposals to have upon the arts.
    Mr. Luce: The effect will be to strengthen the prospects for widening the sources of funding for all arts bodies.
    Mr. Jessel: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the £100 give-as-you-earn scheme provides an important opportunity for the arts to obtain more funds, but, as the arts will be competing with other charities, will there not be a need for a great deal of local promotion, locally organised with great vigour?
    Mr. Luce: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, and this is where hon. Members can do a great deal to help in their constituencies in encouraging support for the arts in that way. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention, in addition to the incentives provided for corporations to give, to the incentives which will be introduced from 1 April next year to provide for payroll giving to charitable bodies. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer plans to introduce a consultation document on that, but the sooner we start educating the public in the possibilities the better.
    Mr. Meadowcroft: I welcome the taxation incentives for charities and artistic organisations, but is the Minister aware of another anomaly, in that if anything is published in a brochure which at all looks like an advertisement it is liable to VAT, and that inhibits the amount of publicity that could be given to a sponsoring organisation? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at that anomaly?
    Mr. Luce: I shall look at that, but I cannot promise any change.

    Arts Funding
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Minister for the Arts what recent representations he has received about the effect on arts funding in London of the demise of the Greater London council.
    Mr. Luce: I have received a number of representations, but I am happy to say that the position of the vast majority of arts organisations in Greater London has been made secure.
    Mr. Chapman: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the first benefit deriving from the abolition of the GLC should be the more efficient management of the South Bank complex, in the interests of those who care about the arts throughout Britain, as well as Londoners? Will he confirm that that should be a top priority of the South Bank board under its able chairman in the year ahead?
    Mr. Luce: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for referring to the South Bank, because under the leadership of Ronnie Grierson we have had a smooth and efficient takeover of responsibilities at considerable personal sacrifice in terms of his time and because he is acting without a salary. It is already becoming clear that the South Bank will operate more efficiently and at lower administrative costs than it has in the past.
    Mr. Freud: Will the Minister bear in mind the considerable pleasure which was brought to schools and old people's homes by the GLC and metropolitan counties which sponsored theatrical tours, and will he do his best to let successor bodies have similar productions, which will give a great deal of pleasure to those people?
    Mr. Luce: I note what the hon. Gentleman says. Much of this is to do with the Arts Council and with local authorities, but I am extremely encouraged by successor authorities' responses, following abolition, to appeals to participate in support for the arts. Today the Westminster city council has announced that it will provide over £3 million for the support of the arts in Greater London. I warmly welcome that.

    National Railway Museum, York
    Mr. Adleyasked the Minister for the Arts if he will pay a visit to the National Railway museum, York.
    Mr. Luce: I hope to do so before long.
    Mr. Adley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he will be extremely welcome? Is he further aware that the museum, in addition to showing off the country's history, currently runs a number of steam locomotives and thus earns money for the museum? Will he confirm that the Government's policy is to encourage museums to earn money from such occupations and to keep and reinvest such earnings?
    Mr. Luce: I know of my hon. Friend's keen interest in such matters. I look forward to my visit to the National Railway museum at York. My hon. Friend is right to say that the museum, as part of the Science museum, is being encouraged to raise extra revenue without obstacles being put in its way by the Government. In that way I hope that increased resources will help to provide a better service.

  CIVIL SERVICE

    Civil Servants (Employment Policy)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on his response to the First Division Association's representations over the position of civil servants arising out of the Westland affair.
    The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Richard Luce): No, Sir.
    Mr. Dalyell: What do the Government think of the view of Sir Frank Cooper, a former permanent secretary at the Ministry of Defence, set out in the Suntory-Toyota lecture at the London School of Economics, that the post of chief information officer at No. 10 Downing street has become a political party post rather than a Civil Service post and should not be occupied by a civil servant? What do the Government say to Lord Bancroft, who thinks that over the Westland affair Ministers abused the Civil
    576
    Service? Should not such heavyweight opinions be taken seriously? Is Mr. Bernard Ingham's position any longer tenable?
    Mr. Luce: The hon. Gentleman is talking absolute nonsense. The position has been made clear time and again by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and in evidence to the Select Committee by Sir Robert Armstrong. I disagree with everything that the hon. Gentleman has said.
    Sir David Price: Does my right hon. Friend recognise the particular problem for press officers, information officers and public relations men in the Civil Service when their trade as public relations men marries ill with the traditional anonymity of the Civil Service and is almost a contradiction in terms?
    Mr. Luce: I note what my hon. Friend has to say, but the principle of the impartiality of the Civil Service remains at the foundation of its success. It must stay that way.
    Mr. Wrigglesworth: Does the Minister accept that when there is a breakdown of collective responsibility, as there was over the Westland affair, and on other occasions, civil servants can be put in a frightful dilemma, which is not catered for in the Armstrong memorandum? Will the Minister therefore examine the matter again to ensure that such circumstances as arose during the Westland affair are catered for in a redraft of the memorandum?
    Mr. Luce: The Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service is about to publish its findings after months of investigation into the relationship between the Civil Service and Ministers. Naturally, we await that report with interest.
    Dr. McDonald: Will the Minister take on board the fact that the breakdown of the collective responsibility of Ministers during the Westland affair has created a new situation? Will he ensure that the Government do not merely use waiting for the Select Committee's report as an excuse for delay? Do the Government agree that it is absolutely necessary to provide an update of the statement on civil servants' duties beyond Sir Robert Armstrong's letter of last year and to provide an independent body to which civil servants can refer in cases involving conflicts of conscience?
    Mr. Luce: The guidelines provided by Sir Robert Armstrong and announced in February 1985 provide a good basis for civil servants. The hon. Lady might be interested to know that the Council of Civil Service Unions is due to meet Sir Robert Armstrong shortly, when all these matters about the relationship between civil servants and their Ministers can be discussed.
    Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise Mr. Bernard Ingham's position on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

    Northern Region
    Mr. Dormandasked the Minister for the Civil Service how many Civil Service posts have been transferred to the northern region since 1979.
    Mr. Luce: The dispersal programme announced on 26 July 1979 did not include the transfer of any posts to the

    577
    northern region. No proposals for major relocation of Government work to the northern region have been made since 1979. Details of posts that may have been transferred there by Departments for management reasons are not held centrally.
    Mr. Dormand: Is the Minister aware that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer assured me last year that the 1985 so-called Budget results would increase employment in the northern region, whereas in fact unemployment has been increased. As this year's Budget will further increase unemployment in the northern region, does the Minister agree that it takes direct action, such as the transferring of Civil Service jobs, to reduce unemployment? In view of what he said, will he assure me that the matter will be seriously considered?
    Mr. Luce: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about unemployment in his region. The fact is that the northern region has a higher proportion of civil servants in relation to the working population than have most other regions in the country. When it comes to relocations, under existing Government Department policies the Departments are asked to put regions first when considering giving support to other areas and moving civil servants outside London.
    Mr. Dickens: Is it not a fact that there are now 150,000 fewer people working for the Civil Service than was the case when the Government came into office? Despite this, I understand that the efficiency of the Civil Service is as high today as it has ever been in the history of the service. Since that is the case, will the Minister give the Civil Service a pat on the back on behalf of this House?
    Mr. Luce: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Against the background of a considerable reduction in the size of the Civil Service, to just under 600,000 compared with 733,000 in 1979, it is true to say that, under the reforms that have taken place, in that time civil servants have become even more professional than they were before. They are performing their duties admirably.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Why does the right hon. Gentleman not answer the question asked by his hon. Friend? Is it not true that civil servants up and down the land are complaining about the lack of numbers and about the fact that they cannot cope? Why does the Minister not answer directly and tell us what civil servants are saying to him privately?
    Mr. Luce: Perhaps I should say in answer to the earlier question that four out of five civil servants are already working outside London. As I have said, the northern region takes a larger proportion of the working Civil
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    Service population than do most other regions. Certainly we have a strong interest in the regions, but I have said what is happening.
    Mr. Forth: Why should civil servants be relocated to the north, rather than the west midlands or anywhere else, other than on the criterion of efficiency?
    Mr. Luce: The last word used by my hon. Friend is right, because clearly efficiency is the key in this case. It is extremely expensive to move civil servants from one region to another or, indeed, from the centre to regions. Our dispersal policy, still to be completed, involves moving 5,900 civil servants to the regions.
    Mr. Pavitt: Does the Minister realise that there is a crisis in Newcastle on Tyne because of the shortage of civil servants employed on social security matters? All hon. Members know that, whenever we have constituency surgeries, elderly people come to see us because pension books are not coming through on time. Something should be done to provide more, not fewer, civil servants.
    Mr. Luce: The hon. Gentleman will have noticed that there is flexibility, in that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has already announced a plan to increase the number of civil servants in the DHSS to enable it to cope with some of the problems. There is flexibility in the Government's policy.
    Mr. Fallon: What sense does it make to pay London weighting allowance to civil servants in London when the same work can be done more cheaply and beneficially in regions such as the north-east and the north-west, which have high unemployment?
    Mr. Luce: As I said earlier, four out of five civil servants work in the regions. In London, we must have a policy that encourages recruitment and retention. Our policies are designed to that end.
    Mr. Wrigglesworth: Will the Minister refute the suggestion that is made in the Financial Times this morning that the London weighting will be further increased because vacancies for civil servants in London cannot be filled? Will he reconsider providing more Civil Service posts in the regions, where they can be filled overnight?
    Mr. Luce: London weighting has been considered in the context of the annual pay discussions. The key question, which we must ask, is whether we are pursuing policies in the Civil Service in London which allow adequate recruitment and retention.

Libya
3.30 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Does it arise out of questions?
Mr. Dalyell: Yes. Precisely because I did not put in a private notice question I feel that, on behalf of several Back Benchers, I am entitled to ask whether it is not extraordinary that, in the middle of the crisis concerning Libya and the British bases, the House of Commons is to hear nothing. Would not any visitor consider it extraordinary if we were to spend eight and a half hours debating Sunday trading and yet, as a Legislature, be told nothing about the United States or Soviet position or to have a statement on the crisis?
You will know, Mr. Speaker, that I have thought for a long time that you are a very superior Speaker to George Thomas. [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am enjoying this.
Mr. Dalyell: George Thomas made certain judgments of his own, such as that in April 1982 that the Prime Minister ought to be supported on the south Atlantic issue. We read that in his memoirs. There is no secret about it. That happened during one of the last crises, when he was Speaker, concerning those islands in the south Atlantic. Do you not think, Mr. Speaker, that it is matter of some judgment whether circumstances that are a matter of war, or potential war, outside Europe, entitle Parliament to a report from Ministers? There might be a judgment about the safety of British subjects. You know that I am one of those hon. Members who have constituents who are involved, and at risk, near Tripoli. Bearing in mind the circumstances, why does the House not have at least a Foreign Office or Prime Ministerial report on this urgent matter?
Mr. Harry Greenway: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I note the hon. Gentleman's well-deserved tribute to you. I am sure that you will always call him for his share, but I hope that you will not call him more often than that.
Mr. Geoffrey Dickens: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have just recently left the Table Office, where I endeavoured to table a straightforward question, which any hon. Member would wish to table. If I can explain—
Mr. Speaker: Is this further to the point of order?
Mr. Dickens: No, but it is a point of order arising out of questions.
Mr. Speaker: Let me deal with the first point of order.
Mr. Andrew Faulds: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Briefly, please.
Mr. Faulds: I strongly reiterate the comments about you, Mr. Speaker. The only reason why I did not trouble your private office this morning to raise a private notice question on the dangers to peace in the middle east caused by the American President's cretinous behaviour was that I was sure that an hon. Member would have tabled, and been granted the opportunity to raise, a private notice question. I am surprised that that did not happen. Is it in order to seek leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10, to raise the issue?
Mr. Speaker: I thank the hon. Member. Private notice question applications are not matters that are raised in the House. Many considerations must be taken into account. I fully understand and appreciate the concern of the House about this matter, and I shall bear that in mind tomorrow and during the rest of the week.
Mr. Tony Marlow: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Events of great significance in the middle east may take place tonight. How can the House bring its views to bear before those events take place?
Mr. Speaker: It would have been possible for any hon. Member to apply before 12 o'clock to seek leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10 to raise this subject—they did not do so. If anything has happened since 12 o'clock, it would be in order to ask leave under Standing Order No. 10 now. Mr. Dickens.
Mr. Dickens rose—
Mr. Peter Shore rose—
Mr. Dickens: I was endeavouring to explain that a short time ago I left the Table Office—
Mr. Shore rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Dickens: You called me, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) should sit down.
Mr. Speaker: Order. In the interests of neatness, I shall hear the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore).
Mr. Shore: Further to the original point of order, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has raised a matter of the utmost importance which should be treated with appropriate seriousness by both sides of the House. This is a matter in which our national interest is involved. As the Leader of the House is present, will he assure the House that hon. Members' feelings on this important matter will be conveyed to his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and that a statement will be made at the earliest opportunity?
The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Biffen): Yes.

Parliamentary Questions
3.33 pm
Mr. Geoffrey Dickens: I am sorry that I have had to rise for the third time and that you are seeking to hurry me, Mr. Speaker. I have been patient—other hon. Members have not.
Recently I left the Table Office after endeavouring to table a straightforward question on a matter of public importance. A man was convicted and sentenced to six months' imprisonment for assaulting two people. He was a child murderer, and had been released from Park Lane mental institution. I wanted an inquiry into the release of that man, who had struck again. I wanted the Minister to consider holding an inquiry into the criteria that we lay down in considering cases in which murderers are released into an unsuspecting society.
You have been praised by the House, Mr. Speaker, and you richly deserve it. I therefore feel that you will deal justly with me. The Table Office informed me that my questions had to be referred to the senior Clerks—the Establishment.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Any matters concerning referral should come to me—privately, if necessary.

Ministerial Interests
3.35 pm
Mr. Dennis. Skinner: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During the weekend it was revealed that a senior Cabinet Minister, the Secretary of State for Transport, had made £4,000 from shares in the Jaguar company, which this Government have privatised. That followed on from the Prime Minister's making money out of Broken Hill, which made money out of the miners' strike. Many hon. Members and people outside the House are worried about the way in which Cabinet Ministers in particular can own shares—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must stop the hon. Member. Points of order raised with me must concern Members' interests. I am not concerned with ministerial rules.
Mr. Skinner: You are absolutely right, Mr. Speaker. The Register of Members' Interests, for which you have responsibility because it is a matter for the House, not the Government, is inadequate to fulfil present-day needs. It is high time that it contained a separate section showing how many Cabinet Ministers own shares. The latest report is that nine Cabinet Ministers own shares.
Another matter which you should consider is that in the Register of Members' Interests only an hon. Member who owns more than 1 per cent. of the total shareholding must register his interest. That is why the Secretary of State for Transport has "Nil" beside his name. It is high time that all shares were disclosed in the Register and that we had a separate section on the Cabinet, especially in view of the latest scandals and all the money that Ministers have been making through their actions in the House.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is at liberty to put that suggestion to the Select Committee on Members' Interests.

MEMBER SWORN
3.40 pm
The following Member made the Affirmation required by law:
Wyvill Richard Nicholls Raynsford Esq., for Fulham.

Libya
3.41 pm
Mr. Andrew Faulds: Further to an earlier point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. We have dealt with that matter.
Mr. Faulds: No. Forgive me—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have dealt with points of order.
Mr. Faulds rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Is it a new point of order?
Mr. Faulds: It is related to your responsibility—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on.
Mr. Faulds rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I take points of order at the appropriate time, which is immediately after questions, and we have now moved on.
Mr. Faulds: No, Sir. I raised a point of order—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall take it if it is a new point of order, but I shall not take a point of order arising from a matter with which we have already dealt.
Mr. Faulds: In that case, it is a new point of order. The one reason why I did not apply for a debate under Standing Order No. 10 this morning was that I expected a statement from the Prime Minister.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is destroying a good reputation.
Mr. Faulds: I wanted a debate under Standing Order No. 10.
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Faulds rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I said in answer to a previous question that if something new had happened since 12 o'clock an application under Standing Order No. 10 would be in order.
Mr. Faulds: It has. The Prime Minister has not come to the House.
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Faulds rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.
Mr. Faulds: Further to that point of order—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall not take it.
Mr. Faulds: There is a new point of order—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We will now proceed to the business set down for today.

Orders of the Day

  Shops Bill [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: I must announce to the House that I have not selected any of the amendments on the Order Paper. More than 65 right hon. and hon. Members have sought leave to take part in the debate, and there may well be others. Therefore, I propose to exercise my powers under the Standing Order to limit speeches to 10 minutes between 6 pm and 8 pm. I hope that that will be the pattern throughout the day so that the majority of right hon. and hon. Members who are anxious to participate can do so.
  3.45 pm
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Douglas Hurd)rose—
  Mr. Gerald Kaufman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There was a little noise in the Chamber when you made your announcement and I may not have heard exactly what you said. Am Ito understand that you have not accepted for debate the reasoned amendment that has been tabled by Her Majesty's Opposition?
  Mr. Speaker: I have not selected any of the amendments or instructions on the Order Paper.
  Mr. Kaufman: Further to that point or order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This is a decision that I have to take. There are a number of amendments and instructions on the Order Paper, and I have not selected any of them.
  Mr. Ray Powell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is a similar point of order to that raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman). Is it usual for you to make such a ruling on a reasoned amendment that is directed to a measure as important as the Shops Bill?
  Mr. Speaker: The Opposition's reasoned amendment and the other amendments on the Order Paper cover the main provisions of the Bill. I think that the entire House is well aware of the various issues that are likely to be raised in opposition to the Bill, from both sides of the House.
  Mr. Hurd: I beg to move—
  Mr. Peter Shore: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Obviously I do not wish to challenge your ruling, but I find your refusal to select an amendment on Second Reading in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues to be unprecedented. I should be grateful, Mr. Speaker, if you would inform the House why you have departed from all previous practice.
  Mr. Speaker: There are precedents for not selecting reasoned amendments which cover the main conditions in Bills.
  Mr. Alan Williams: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Bill raises matters of profound conscience and there is an early-day motion on the Order Paper, which has been signed by many hon. Members,

  585
  which asks for a free vote. The Government have deliberately refused to allow that opportunity to hon. Members. The Opposition have endeavoured to meet the cross-House opinion on this matter—as I have said, the Bill involves issues of deep conscience—to enable some Conservative Members to express their opinion and concern. By your action, Mr. Speaker, you have made that protest on their part impossible.
  Mr. Speaker: Not at all. The reasoned amendment covers the very points that hon. Members are likely to make for or against the Bill. That applies to hon. Members on both sides of the House. There is no controversy about that. If the reasoned amendment had called for a free vote, that might have been a different matter.
  Mr. Neil Kinnock: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have just said that the matters covered by the reasoned amendment relate to the issues that hon. Members may wish to raise in contention against or qualification of their support for Second Reading. Surely that is the position on all debates, especially on Second Reading. That is most certainly the case in respect of a reasoned amendment. If that were not so, the use of the stratagem in the House would not come under the title "reasoned amendment."
  If hon. Members have reservations about giving a Bill a Second Reading, they will want to specify those reasons by means of a reasoned amendment. It is a matter of great disquiet to the Opposition that what we thought was a mixture of reasoning and convention, time hallowed in this place—a device that allows us to set out our reasons for having strong reservations about giving the Bill a Second Reading—has not been accepted by you, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has made the point exactly. In the course of debate Front-Bench and Back-Bench Members will state their reasons for having reservations in the very words that are contained in the reasoned amendment.
  Mr. Kinnock: Mr. Speaker, I am sure you will recognise that the matters raised by your judgment today—naturally we are not challenging the wisdom or the judgment itself—have extremely important implications, not only for today's proceedings but for all other proceedings on Second Readings, whoever may be in Government or Opposition and whoever may propose a Bill, whether it be a private Member's or a public Bill. It is important that we have a clear and full understanding of the basis upon which the Opposition or any hon. Member may or may not table a reasoned amendment.
  There have been cases, well within your memory, Mr. Speaker, and mine, in which there have been areas of contention, possibly not absolute, on certain Bills and, in order to specify reasons, especially on matters of great public importance, those against the Bill have been able to table a reasoned amendment.
  Is it not the case in this adversarial House that the official Opposition, for all the natural and normal reasons, can expect to have more notice taken of their reasoned amendments than would possibly apply to others? On that basis, Mr. Speaker, I hope that you will not consider that the judgment you have made today will constitute a precedent on other occasions when we, or perhaps other hon. Members may wish to table a reasoned amendment.
  Mr. Speaker: I have to make a judgment on these issues. I give the right hon. Gentleman an unequivocal
  586
  assurance that I shall continue to consider every reasoned amendment most carefully. This is not a new situation. No binding precedent has been set for the future.
  Mr. Frank Cook: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I accept your judgment, but in my lack of maturity as an hon. Member I feel that I must record my difficulty in understanding. It is possible for someone of such little experience as myself to misunderstand that this could be part of a covert stratagem to coerce Conservative Members to vote—
  Mr. Speaker: Order, that is a thoroughly unworthy comment.
  Mr. Dennis Skinner rose—
  Mr. Williams: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Williams: It is on a point of information, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I shall accept it if it is a point of information.
  Mr. Williams: I realise that it is difficult for you to give a snap judgment in relation to the arguments you have heard from the Opposition Front Bench this afternoon. As the issue refers to a vote which will take place at midnight, would you be willing to reconsider it and listen to arguments in detail during the debate to see whether the opportunity of a vote may be extended at the end?
  Mr. Speaker: I fully accept that I am the servant of the House. I shall reconsider the matter, but the debate on Second Reading will proceed without the amendment at this stage.
  Mr. Hurd: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill falls into two main parts. It deals with Sunday trading and with the working hours of shop workers at all times. I propose to spend most of my time on the first part, Sunday trading, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General will, of course, deal with points on the second part. I should like to clear the ground by beginning with a word of general explanation of the employment provisions.
  The Shops Act 1950 requires that all shop workers must take a half-day holiday each week, should take specified meal and rest breaks during the working day and must take time-off in lieu of Sunday employment. Part II also sets more detailed restrictions on the working hours of young people—16 and 17-year-olds. It sets their maximum hours and overtime and controls employment at night. There are no equivalent restrictions for adult shop workers.
  The Bill, as originally drafted, aimed to remove the existing restrictions on adult shop workers but to leave in place the provisions for young people which we are reviewing separately.
  Fundamental to our argument for lifting the restrictions on adults was the belief that these inflexible statutory restrictions do not reflect modern conditions. They originated during the early years of this century when retailing and society in general were different from today. We believe that the Shops Act 1950 employment provisions for adults are outdated and over restrictive.

  587
  We believe that those repeals will not of themselves change the maximum hours that shop workers will normally be asked to work. The normal operation of the labour market has secured for shop workers as for other employees with no statutory restrictions, hours well within the potential hours permitted by the 1950 Act. Most employees determine their working conditions without that type of statutory restriction, and we believe that adult shop workers are just as capable of that. That is not to say that there is no place for the law or the Government. The Government intend to keep wages councils within this area, albeit with a modernised and restricted remit. There is now a raft of statutory protection for all employees covering social security, employment protection and health and safety at work, all of which post date shops legislation.
  Therefore, we do not believe that there is justification for the view that the Bill, as originally drafted, would dangerously erode the working conditions of shop workers. On the other hand, unnecessary regulation spoils the ability of employers to adapt to changing circumstances and secure the success of their businesses. Despite those arguments, which seem to us to be compelling, in the other place the view was expressed that times have not changed to that extent, and that in shop workers we still have an exploited and vulnerable sector of the work force that is peculiarly in need of protection. Lord Denning's amendment to clause 2 was carried on that argument. His amendment retains indefinitely and in full all the employment provisions of the 1950 Act.
  Facing that situation, we thought it right that this House should have the fullest opportunity to consider that particular matter, so we have not put forward proposals to alter the Bill since it came from another place. We shall listen carefully to what the House has to say before coming to our final view on what should happen about part II of the 1950 Act. That is why I say that at this stage we are not proposing any changes in the Bill, which has come to us from the other place.
  Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda): Will the Home Secretary tell the House in what part of the Bill he will pay due regard to the principles and conscience of those who wish to preserve the special character of Sunday?
  Mr. Hurd: Throughout, but particularly in the rest of my speech.
  The controversy on Sunday trading, which has gone on inside and outside of the House for many months now, has been both strong and reasonably good tempered. So far as I am concerned, I want to keep it that way. There is scope for argument about the support for either side. Last week I received a group of eminent churchmen who reported to me more than 1 million signatures in petitions against the Bill. I was able to report to them a somewhat larger number of signatures in petitions in favour of the Bill—
  Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield): Nonsense.
  Mr. Hurd: The hon. Gentleman says "Nonsense." The score available to me today is 1·4 million signatures in petitions in favour and 1·2 million against the Bill.
  Mr. Sheerman: Is the Secretary of State aware that only today I have handed in a petition containing half a million signatures against the Bill, on behalf of the Co-operative movement?
  Mr. Hurd: When all the statistics of polls and petitions have been swapped, two facts emerge, which I believe the House will accept. The first is that there is a very large body of opinion—I believe a majority, although not the most articulate — which no longer believes in a law which says, broadly, that shops can open when people are at work but not when they are free to go shopping. Within that body are many whose pattern of work and life make the present law highly restrictive or inconvenient for them.
  Secondly, there is a large body that wants to keep Sunday special, and that body goes well beyond the ranks of regular churchgoers. Therefore, there are those two bodies of opinion, and many of us belong to both—
  Mr. Harry Greenway: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Hurd: I should like to carry on for a little while, otherwise my speech will be unduly long. If my hon. Friend feels that he wants to intervene a little later, I shall give way to him.
  Many of us see no contradiction between believing that the Shops Act 1950 is unworkable and should go and wanting to keep Sunday special. We see no difficulty or contradiction in belonging to both bodies of opinion.
  Many people seem to argue as though the special nature of the English and Welsh Sunday has always been enforced by law. Of course, that is not so. All through the last century, and for half of this century, there was no effective law forbidding shops to open. At the high moment of the Victorian Sunday, when Mrs. Proudie and Mr. Slope railed against Sabbath day travelling, there was no effective law forbidding shopping on Sundays. Only in 1936 was the law brought into something like its present shape.
  The House must discuss three options: first, whether to continue a 50-year experiment which brought in the criminal law to regulate one, and only one, part of human activity on Sunday — shopping — and an experiment which, in its present form, is collapsing; secondly, whether to rely for keeping Sunday special on tradition, persuasion and example, as in Scotland; or, finally, whether some compromise or middle way is possible. Those are the three choices before the House.
  I do not believe that the first option to continue with the present law suffice. The 1950 Act no longer commands respect or compllance. I need not go through the ludicrous contradictions in the Act. Of course, no one defends them. As a result of the contradictions, enforcement is arbitrary.
  Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Hurd: I shall continue my speech. The hon. Gentleman may find that I cover his point.
  Mr. Duffy: My point relates to enforcement.
  Mr. Hurd: I shall come to enforcement later.
  In the first nine months of 1985, there were only 550 convictions for illegal Sunday opening. Within five miles of the House, one could find as many shops breaking the law on Sunday. This is a bad Act because it regulates indefensibly an activity which most people no longer regard as wrong. The co-operatives' poll shows that most people shop on Sundays, many of them buying items which are illegally sold.
  Mr. Duffy rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I shall give way later, if the hon. Gentleman persists. I wish to get on with my argument. I am describing as fairly as I can the three options that the House must consider.
  In Kent last month I met a man who runs a garden centre. Two thirds of his trade is done on Sunday, mainly through families who come to the centre in the afternoon. His livelihood is now at the mercy and whim or calculation of anyone who can go to court and force his local council to prosecute him for illegal trading. On what possible social, economic or moral grounds should that man be forced out of business? That is the sort of thing that could happen under the existing law.
  A time comes when the Government must step in and change a law which can produce such results. That is the purpose of the Bill, which repeals the central provisions of the Shops Act 1950. It does not compel Sunday opening. It leaves the decision to the choice of the shopkeeper and the customer and it provides for the protection of existing employees, because we accept that the deregulation of shopping hours will alter the position of shop workers, many of whom may have joined the industry originally because Sunday working was not expected and some workers may not wish to work on Sundays for religious, family or other reasons. We recognise their anxiety about the prospect of Sunday working, and the Bill contains two important safeguards to protect their position.
  Clause 3 and schedule 1 establish two new statutory rights for shop workers who are in employment before the commencement date of the Act. The first right is that the dismissal of an existing shop worker who refuses to work on Sunday will be automatically unfair. Secondly, shop workers will have the right not to have other action, short of dismissal, taken against them by their employer because they have refused to work on Sunday. All shop workers employed on the day before the commencement date of the Act will enjoy those rights, unless they have agreed to work on Sunday irrespective of how long they have worked for their employers, the number of hours worked per week or their age.
  Mr. Greenway: My right hon. Friend is making a most impressive speech. Is he aware, however, that the difficulty for many of us in that he is inviting us to endorse unrestricted Sunday trading on a principle of pay now by voting for it tonight and perhaps having a say later in amending the Bill in Committee? It is almost impossible for me to accept that.
  Mr. Hurd: I am glad that I did not give way to my hon. Friend earlier. I am approaching the part of my speech which deals with the arrangements which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and I have in mind for this Bill.
  Mr. Michael Meadowcroft rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I wish to make progress before I give way again.
  I have dealt with the concessions to protect the conscientious position of shop workers, and I wish to discuss the third option which I mentioned—a possible compromise.
  I wish to make two general points before I do that. I have tried to follow this discussion as closely as I can, and two things continue to worry me about the position of
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  those who wish to preserve the status quo or something like it. I can easily understand those who would say that keeping Sunday special should mean restricting what we or others do to what is necessary. However, most people take a different view, whether they are for or against the Bill. Most of us think it harmless to fill up a car with petrol on a Sunday, to take our families out to lunch or to visit a leisure centre or a stately home. But none of those activities is necessary. They all require staff. Nearly 9 million people now work on a Sunday, of whom 4 million work regularly. All those activities, pleasant though unnecessary, make a call on public services. I cannot for the life of me see what is uniquely harmful about a shopping expedition or why going shopping disrupts family life in a way that those other activities do not. I do not understand why shopping alone disrupts the rhythm of life so badly that we should continue to try to use the criminal law to prevent it.
  Mr. Jonathan Sayeed: Does my right hon. Friend wish to see the increased commercialisation of the Sabbath?
  Mr. Hurd: The best answer to the problem of the decay of the 1950 Act is to keep the criminal law out of the matter. I shall deal with possible compromises in a moment.
  I can deal more briefly with my second anxiety. I speak as someone who wants to keep Sunday special, who feels strongly about Sunday and who enjoys a traditional Sunday. The churches and others are entitled, and probably obliged, to persuade and to set an example in this respect as in others, and I wish them well in that. However, it is a sign of weakness to argue that the processes of persuasion or example are not enough. It is a sign of weakness to say that we are entitled to wheel in the criminal law to regulate an area which is not, for most people, criminal in an increasingly vain attempt to prevent people from doing what otherwise, from convenience or necessity, they might do.
  Mr. John Stokes: We are all listening with rapt attention to my right hon. Friend's excellent speech. We have heard his personal view that Sunday should in some way be kept special. Is that also the view of the Government, or are they purely neutral?
  Mr. Hurd: I think that it is the view of the great majority of my colleagues, and it is certainly strongly mine. We do not, however, believe that it is a matter for the criminal law.
  I will deal briefly with the Auld report and the economic effects before I come to the question of compromises and the handling of the matter in the House. I have looked at the various predictions in the Auld report and elsewhere about the economic effects of deregulation. I think that it is fair to conclude that, as the assumptions are so varied, it would be foolish to claim certainty. Our surveys suggest that under 30 per cent. of shops would open all the year round, which apparently compares with just under 20 per cent. in Scotland, where there is no law against it. I believe that, as in Scotland, there would be plenty of volunteers to man those shops which opened.
  One of the merits of the Auld report is that it did not claim that all the arguments went the same way. There is certainly a balance to be struck. There can be no certainty

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  about the net effect on sales and thus on jobs, as these will depend on the free choice of the customer. All that one can be sure about is that the law in its present state produces uncertainty and unfairness, which can only be harmful.
  Mr. Eric Forth: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the incidence of church-going in Scotland is higher than in England and that to his knowledge there has been no breakdown of civilisation north of the border of the type predicted by those who oppose the Bill?
  Mr. Hurd: Civilisation seems to be strong and flourishing north of the border. The Scottish Sunday, about which one may have varying views, is preserved by tradition and example. That seems to me to be a sounder basis than that on which we rely in England and Wales.
  I should like to say something about experience abroad. If I do not, others certainly will. Many countries have some form of regulation of Sunday shopping and several are having the same kind of debate as is going on here. We have done a trawl around, and I think it is fair to say that there is a trend towards more flexible shopping hours. In some cases, that has been recognised by legislative change, while in others a debate is going on. In others, illegal trade is increasing.
  Norway started on the same course as we are following but was pushed by a minority campaign into a compromise solution with a local option and a schedule of goods. I am told that that compromise is not going particularly well. Sweden, on the other hand, introduced complete deregulation, and I gather that there is no particular demand for the reimposition of control. The reason may be that, as I understand it, the decline in small shops has been halted in Sweden. That suggests that deregulation can help small shops by enabling them to play to their strengths, which are flexibility and quality of service.
  In the United States of America, seven-day trading is allowed in most states, and I know of no evidence that deregulation has been harmful to small shops there.
  Sir Raymond Gower: Why does my right hon. Friend keep looking at the smaller countries, such as Sweden and Norway? Is it not a fact that all the thickly populated countries, such as France, West Germany and Holland, have great restrictions on Sunday trading?
  Mr. Hurd: In differing respects that is so, but many of the restrictions are now subject to argument, especially in Germany. One may also have views about the extent to which those restrictions are enforced. The last "small country" to which I referred was in fact the United States of America.
  At a meeting in a church in my constituency on this subject one of the very last contributors was a grey-haired lady who was a warden of one of the churches in Witney. My heart sank, as she looked like a formidable opponent of the Bill — there was that feel about her — but she simply remarked that, having lived for many years in the United States, the main difference that she had observed in this respect was that in the United States the shops were open and the churches were full.
  Sir Peter Mills: Is my right hon. Friend really saying that complete deregulation
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  will not affect small shopkeepers in this country? The big multiples are gaining in strength and they will open on Sundays. As there is only a certain amount of cake to go round, small shopkeepers will be drastically hurt.
  Mr. Hurd: I said that it would be foolish to be dogmatic in this respect. I have referred to the Swedish experience. If my hon. Friend has information which contradicts my analysis of that experience, no doubt he will produce it. My analysis is that deregulation has actually helped to end the decline in prosperity of small shopkeepers.
  Mr. Duffy rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I should like to get on a little as I am coming to what may be a particular issue in view of the interventions of my hon. Friends.
  Mr. Duffy: What about taking an intervention from this side?
  Mr. Hurd: I have taken one from that side.
  Mr. Duffy: He has gone.
  Mr. Hurd: I am not responsible for that. I think that I have been reasonably generous in giving way.
  With regard to the third option that I set out—those within and outside the House who broadly accept my critique of the 1950 Act but dislike the Bill and argue strongly that the Government should be able to devise some compromise between the existing law and the deregulation proposed in the Bill—I think that Members who hold that view will agree that it is not simply a matter of splitting the difference, nor can the matter be resolved by the ingenuity of the parliamentary draftsmen. Before the draftsmen can get to work, there must be some principle on which a compromise can rest if it is to be fair, acceptable and enforceable.
  Many suggestions along those lines were put to the Auld Committee and in another place. I think that they fall under four main headings. First, there are the proposals for some form of local option involving local councillors in some way, despite their strong opposition to becoming involved and the complications and contradictions that would result. Secondly, there are proposals for a compromise on the hours of opening permitted on Sundays. Thirdly, there are proposals to extend but not abolish the list of commodities which can legally be sold on a Sunday, although I think that that would be difficult. Fourthly, there are proposals to limit in one way or another the size of establishment which may open on a Sunday. Under those four main headings, a large array of compromise proposals has been set out.
  I do not wish to analyse those proposals today. I wish to make one or two general comments which I hope will be found reasonable. It is desirable that a measure touching Sunday should be as widely accepted as possible within and outside the House. So far, the Government have not been persuaded that any compromise of which we have heard is preferable to the Bill, but we intend to enter discussion of the Bill in detail with an open mind. [Interruption.] It did not require much intelligence to anticipate the scepticism with which that statement would be received. I therefore come at once to the specific arrangements whereby we believe that the general thoughts that I have just uttered can be made effective.
  As we are persuaded that the present provisions will not work, we invite our supporters to join us in voting to repeal

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  those unworkable provisions, but neither my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary nor I would wish or expect that invitation to result in Members voting against their consciences. If the Bill receives a Second Reading, my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary will, in Committee and on Report, underline our open approach by doing his best to encourage attendance and then by arranging for Conservative Members to have a free vote on amendments.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I should like to complete this point before giving way. We would not seek to upset in another place any alternative approach that had commended itself on a free vote to this House.
  Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: Does my right hon. Friend's memory extend as far back as 27 February this year, when, on a free vote on the Procedure Committee's recommendations, the will of the Back Benchers was overturned by Ministers and PPSs who traipsed through the Lobby to do so? Does he recall that less than a week ago the Leader of the House explained this phenomenon by saying that Ministers looked to the Chief Whip for advice on a free vote and that PPSs are expected to do likewise?
  Mr. Hurd: I have no direct memory of the incident, but I can readily and without equivocation put my hon. Friend's fears at rest. The freedom of the vote in Committee and on Report will be undiluted and unaffected in respect of all Conservative Members—right hon. or hon. Members of the Government or not.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I shall give way only once more.
  Mr. Charles Irving: Having listened with care, am I to understand that there will also be a free vote on Third Reading?
  Mr. Hurd: The Bill that will reach Third Reading will be the Bill as formed by the House on a series of free votes. It will be the House's Bill as a result of a series of free votes.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Hurd: We would propose that the Bill be referred first to a Special Standing Committee.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Hurd: I shall not give way, as I intend to conclude in a few minutes—[Interruption]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. If the Secretary of State does not give way, hon. Members must resume their seats.
  Mr. Hurd: When I gave way to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Irving), I said that I was just about to conclude.
  Mr. Ted Rowlands: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We have been following the Secretary of State very closely throughout the discussions about whether or not there will be a free vote. Can we, through you, have a guarantee that at no stage will he seek to move a guillotine on the Bill?
  Mr. Speaker: I cannot answer that.
  Mr. Hurd: I gladly give that guarantee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We would propose that the Bill be
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  referred to a Special Standing Committee. That will give the bodies and interests involved a clear opportunity to put forward their proposals for building, if they so wish, on the ground that the repeal of the 1950 Act would leave clear. I certainly hope that the critics of the Bill will welcome this opportunity to move from criticism to construction.
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Hurd: No. I am coming to the end.
  I have noticed the instruction, standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan), which calls on the Government to amend the Bill
  "to give statutory recognition to the special character of Sunday."
  The Bill has always included special arrangements for Sunday in respect of employment, and it will continue to do so after its passage through another place. Therefore, in that respect, it already complies with the views of my hon. Friend in the draft instruction. In Committee and on Report we can consider further whether special arrangements can also sensibly be made in the first part of the Bill. The question is not whether Sunday should be kept special but what precisely should be the role of the law in that regard. I hope that the House will agree that the arrangements that I have outlined give hon. Members a reasonable chance to test thoroughly all possible alternatives to the simple proposal for deregulation. I repeat that we would not try to reverse any such alternative approach that commended itself to the House on a free vote.
  Mr. Stanbrook: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Hurd: I am just concluding.
  First, we need to clear the ground by a straightforward decision on Second Reading that the present Act will not do. The ground must be cleared before we can decide whether to leave the ground as an open space or to erect some other building. If we fail this first test and the House tonight decides to leave the law as it is, I foresee a good deal of indignation from the wider public and a spasm of arbitrary prosecutions under the 1950 Act, from which traders and public alike would suffer. Later, I foresee a steady further collapse of the Act into disrepute.
  The truth is that the law is in decay, and that is bad for us all—for shoppers, shopkeepers and all our constituents. I believe that the course that I have outlined shows us the way to restore the law to effectiveness and good health.
  4.27 pm
  Mr. Gerald Kaufman: This debate has been heralded by an unprecedented outbreak of largesse on the part of the Government. There has been an outpouring of goodies, which when carefully examined appropriately fit in nicely with the nostaglic old slogan of one of the Bill's commercial supporters, F. W. Woolworth—"Nothin worth more than sixpence."
  We have the generous extension of the debate until midnight. Is it unworthy of me to wonder whether it has crossed the mind of the Patronage Secretary that as midnight approaches some of his frailer Back Benchers may find the lure of a mug of Horlicks and bed more enticing than the attraction of the "No" Lobby?
  There is a motion to commit the Bill to a Special Standing Committee—a procedure rarely granted despite the most earnest pleas on even uncontroversial Bills, but

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  now supplied on this Bill for nothing. I ask myself whether the Government are worried about something. I ask that question even more on hearing the Home Secretary solemnly offering his Back Benchers a free vote on some of the remaining stages of the Bill if only they will vote for the Second Reading tonight. Any fly accepting the spider's invitation will have complete freedom of the web.
  The Home Secretary's offer of a free vote is only worth while and meaningful if his hon. Friends vote against the Second Reading in numbers ample enough to gain substantial representation on the Standing Committee. That way, with a Committee not packed with Lobby fodder, the free vote will mean something, especially in the light of the promise by the Home Secretary that the guillotine will not apply at any stage of the Bill. No doubt sufficient hon. Members on the Government side will take the hint when the Division bells ring at midnight, and they can have complete confidence that voting against the Bill is in no way a violation of the three-line Whip that was issued to them.
  I offer as proof a letter printed recently in British Weekly and Christian Record, a journal published by Christian Weekly Newspapers Ltd. In reply to a reader who demanded that there should be no Whip on this Bill for Government Members, a correspondent wrote in a letter:
  "Mr. Roberts"
  —that is the person who wrote the original letter—
  "misunderstands the nature and power of the parliamentary Whips, at least as far as the Conservative Party is concerned. The Whip is issued to the Conservative MPs who agree to take it, essentially as a bidding to attend the House of Commons and to be present for voting.
  How the MPs then vote remains very much a matter of their own judgment and conscience."
  That letter, specifically written about the Bill, came from a most respected Member of this House, the right hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Alison), who is the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister. I have spent some time in 10 Downing street, and I know it is inconceivable that such a letter by the Prime Minister's Parliamentary Private Secretary could have been written without the knowledge and authority of the Prime Minister herself. Therefore, hon. Members on the Government side can be confident and carefree in voting tonight in accordance with what the right hon. Member for Selby calls
  "their own judgment and conscience."
  Regardless of one's view of the intentions of the Bill, in the form in which it is before the House it is unfit to proceed further because in the literal meaning of the word it is nonsense. As amended in the House of Lords, clause 2 maintains the Shops Act 1950, which provides protection for all workers in the retail trade but schedule 2, which has not been amended, removes the Shops Act 1950 protection from all except 16 and 17-year-olds. Page 1 does almost the exact opposite of pages 5 to 7. The Home Secretary has nurtured a reputation for seeing both sides of the question, but surely this is carrying broad mindedness a little too far. The right hon. Gentleman really wants to restore the Bill to the state that it was in before Lord Denning and Lord Stockton interfered with it, by withdrawing Shops Act protection from most workers. That is one of the major reasons why the Opposition ask the House to reject the Bill.
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  The Auld report makes it clear that the first Bills enacted by Parliament which related to shops
  "had their origin in the late nineteenth century concern to protect shop workers from exploitation."
  I suppose that that is what some people might call Victorian values. Shop workers needed protection a century ago, and today's 2 million shop workers, one in 10 of the working population, need protection just as much. They remain some of the most disadvantaged employees in Britain. Shop workers are a vulnerable work force. About 63 per cent. are women, two thirds of them married women, and 21 per cent. are 19 years of age or younger. About 15 per cent. of male workers are 19 or younger. Three fifths of the women work part time, and part-timers are disproportionately numerous among the younger workers. Of Saturday-only workers, 75 per cent. are under 18. Two thirds of them are girls and 87 per cent. are under 21.
  The Auld report highlighted the predicament of shop workers when, speaking of those large numbers of workers whose employers have resisted trade union organisation, it said:
  "They lack the trades union protection enjoyed by most other workers. In the main, shop workers have to fend for themselves on the subject of working hours and conditions."
  The Auld report emphasised that shop workers work longer hours and receive below average pay. The national minimum wage rate for employees in the non-food retail trades is only £75·52 a week. For those in the retail food and allied trades it is even lower, £75·14 a week. Earnings of women shop workers are only half the national average earnings for women.
  It is because of this special disadvantage that for much of this cenury Governments of all parties have agreed that shop workers should be given special protection. The reasons for that special protection were eloquently stated by Winston Churchill just before he became Home Secretary when, in 1909, he moved the Second Reading of the Trade Boards Bill, which launched the wages councils. [Interruption.] I am not sure whether hon. Gentlemen are sneering at workers' conditions or at Winston Churchill: it is up to them to decide.
  When Winston Churchill moved the Second Reading of the Trade Boards Bill he said:
  "where you have what we call sweated trades, you have no organisation, no parity of bargaining, the good employer is undercut by the bad, and the bad employer is undercut by the worst; the worker, whose whole livelihood depends upon the industry, is undersold by the worker who only takes the trade up as a second string."
  That is relevant in a trade with so many part-timers. As President of the Board of Trade, Winston Churchill also said:
  "It is a serious national evil that any class of His Majesty's subjects should receive less than a living wage in return for their utmost exertions."—[Official Report, 28 April 1909; Vol. IV, c. 388.]
  I suppose that what Mr. Churchill was really saying was that one cannot build caring capitalism on exploited labour. From Churchill's legislation there developed the wages councils.
  We heard a lot from the Home Secretary today, and from his predecessor in the debate last year, about the impartial recommendation of the independent Auld committee that restrictions on the hours of shop opening should be removed. The Auld committee made other

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  recommendations as well, and its members felt so strongly that they put those other recommendations forward even though, as they emphasised, the subject
  "was not directly within our terms of reference."
  They said:
  "We strongly urge the retention for retail workers of the machinery of the Wages Councils for the fixing and proper enforcement of satisfactory wages and premium rates."
  They added:
  "We set great store by the preservation of the role of Wages Councils in fixing statutory minimum weekly rates, holidays and holiday pay for the retail trades. Shop workers need their protection in this respect as much as ever, in fact more so now when jobs are harder to find and the already low membership of unions in the retail sector is declining."
  The Auld committee went on to say:
  "we believe that there will be a strong likelihood of exploitation of some shop workers in the form of lower wages, particularly for unsocial hours of work, and possibly in a longer working week."
  That is why it recommended the retention of the wages councils for those three matters. However, the Wages Bill now going through Parliament removes from the wages councils those very powers whose retention the Auld committee said that it set great store by—the powers to fix statutory weekly rates, holidays and holiday pay. The Auld committee said that, as part of deregulation, they should stay, but the Paymaster General is abolishing them in the Wages Bill.
  The Auld committee made another recommendation:
  "we also urge that there should be proper enforcement of the Wages Councils Orders, by adequately staffed Wages Council Inspectorate. This would become an even greater necessity in the event of de-regulation than it is now."
  Since 1979 the Wages Inspectorate has already been cut by nearly one-third and now the Government intend to reduce it by a further 40 per cent. While the Government have accepted those Auld recommendations that suit them—deregulation and repeal of Shops Act protection—the two Auld recommendations that are an integral part of the package have been cast aside. For all workers under 21, a high proportion of shopworkers, the wages councils are being scrapped. The number of shopworkers aged under 21 totals 500,000. About one in three of young people find their first jobs in the distributive and related trades, yet the Government are repealing their wages council protection.
  It has to be said that the Government are completely schizophrenic in their attitude to young shop workers. On the one hand they are determined to deprive all under-21s of even residuary wages council protection, and on the other they want to retain Shops Act protection only for 16 and 17-year-olds. I hope that I may be excused for claiming to see in this some logical inconsistency—it is what they call the generation gap.
  A major gap in the Home Secretary's speech was his failure to state clearly what the Government intend to do about Shops Act protection. Their original intention was to remove it entirely for all except certain teenagers, and part of the Bill still embodies that intention. This afternoon the Home Secretary was even more obscure than usual about whether the Government intend to maintain their original intention. If they go through with it, they will be depriving most shop workers of entitlements to halfday holidays and meal breaks, and of the necessary protection for restrictions of working hours.
  The Bill will enable shops to open for 24 hours a day, for seven days a week and for 168 hours a week, but under it shop workers will have no legal protection against disciplinary action or dismissal if they refuse to work late
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  at night. What is more, the wages council legislation will give them no right to receive premium rates for unsocial hours. The Bill gives shops the unlimited right to open for all 24 hours on Sunday. Removal of the Shops Act protection would deprive workers of the right to have lime off in lieu of Sunday working, which would abolish the statutory limitation that prevents Sunday opening for more than two Sundays in a month. Worst of all, the Bill will result in forcing all shop workers to work on Sundays whether or not they want to.
  The Home Secretary made great play of the provisions in clause 3 and schedule 1, which seem to give existing workers the right to refuse to work on Sunday and not to be dismissed or disciplined if they exercise that right, but even this alleged protection is almost worthless. The unfair dismissal procedure cited in schedule 1(1) is a pallid protection. Even if a victimised worker makes such a complaint, the records show that only 4 per cent. of those who are successful get their jobs back. Employers, who in any case will have the weapon of refusal of promotion and of the opportunity of pleading genuine economic reason or the needs of the business, will not be deterred by this paper proviso.
  Moreover, employers are even now planning to circumvent the provision. Schedule 1 makes it clear that this so-called conscience clause does not apply when the worker has signed an agreement to work on Sundays, and that exemption, which makes nonsense of the alleged safeguard, specifically applies after the Act comes into force. Employers are preparing for the new situation already. I have here a job application form issued by Harris Queensway plc. Among the other declarations it asks applicants to sign is this one:
  "I agree to work on Bank Holidays, Sundays and overtime as required."
  Mr. Charles Morrison: When was that prospectus first published? Is it brand new, or has it been in existence for some time?
  Mr. Kaufman: I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman because—
  Mr. Neil Hamilton: Ah!
  Mr. Kaufman: I know that the hon. Gentlemaa is anxious for a job, but he should not creep every moment of the afternoon.
  The form is extant now, many months before the Bill is likely to become law, if it ever does, and those who take jobs now are being asked to sign that form. In any case, this conscience clause, for the little that it is worth, applies only to workers in employment at the time that the Act comes into force. All others will have to work on Sundays, whether or not they like it.
  Mr. Neil Hamilton: They are queueing up for jobs.
  Mr. Kaufman: They are queueing up for jobs because there are 4 million unemployed.
  All others will have to work on Sundays whether or not they like it, and that will mean that in time all workers will be forced to work on Sundays. The turnover of workers in the retail trade is enormous. One survey shows that 34 per cent. of full-time shop workers and 45 per cent. of part-timers have been in their current jobs for less than a year.
  What will be the consequence of the removal of limits on Sunday opening? It will mean fewer jobs. This is made clear in the Auld report, which states:

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  "Sunday opening would generate Sunday jobs, but the resulting fall in week-day demand would mean fewer jobs at other times. In the short term, the IFS"—
  the Institute of Fiscal Studies, which did a survey for the Auld committee—
  "suggests that the net effect of these two conflicting influences on manning requirements would be a small reduction in employment in the retail trade, possibly about 5,000 full-time equivalent jobs … In the longer term, the reduction in retailing capacity would inevitably involve a further loss of jobs. Although more people might be required in the remaining shops, the IFS predicts that the net effect would be a reduction of about a further 15,000 full-time equivalent jobs."
  That gloomy estimate is confirmed by a letter sent to me last month by Mr. Peter Hartley, executive chairman of Hillards plc. He wrote to me as follows:
  "Hillards is a public limited company operating over forty large superstores and supermarkets in ten Northern and Midland counties. We employ over 6,500 people.
  We have done our sums and calculate that if we trade on Sundays we shall provide additional part-time jobs for between 800 and 1,000 people. Most of these jobs will be for young people and housewives and will be for Sunday work only. We further anticipate that we shall increase our total sales because we shall take additional trade from many small businesses and corner shops that currently open on a Sunday in defiance of the law.
  However, our total operating costs are likely to increase significantly more than the extra profit which will be generated from these additional sales and as a result we shall have to employ between 100–300 less people full time during the week.
  So in one medium sized company (with sales of around £300 million) we provide up to 1,000 jobs for five or six hours on a Sunday but dispense with up to 300 jobs of 39 hours during the week.
  In areas of already high unemployment this cannot make sense.
  I have been asked by several Conservative Members of Parliament why should Hillards open on Sundays if they do not want to? That seems to be an odd question from a party which believes in competition and market forces"—[Interruption.]
  This is a man who employs 6,500 people and has a chain of stores with a turnover of £300 million. I should have thought that his opinion was worth listening to. He goes on to say:
  "If the law is changed we shall be forced to open on a Sunday and instead of creating full time jobs (we provided over 1,000 new jobs in the last year) we shall have to add to the numbers of those who are unemployed."
  As Mr. Hartley states, Sunday opening will have a harmful effect on small shops. The Auld report reminds us that original legislation limiting shop opening hours was passed
  "to protect small shopkeepers from excessive competition."
  If the Bill is enacted, many retail chains which are against Sunday opening will all the same feel obliged to open. The John Lewis Partnership states:
  "Sunday opening would be progressive and irresistible."
  Mr. Nicholas Lyell: I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Is he aware that practically every shop, large and small, which trades on Sunday is trading illegally? Would it be the policy of the Labour party to enforce the present law?
  Mr. Kaufman: It is not the job of a political party, or indeed the Government, to enforce the law, and the hon. and learned Gentleman, who is the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Attorney-General, shows a great ignorance of what the law says.
  The Association of Retail Trades has surveyed its members and found that 82 per cent. of small traders are
  600
  opposed to deregulation. If the Bill is passed, many small traders will have to stay open seven days a week in order to survive. Many more will be driven out of business altogether. Is the Government's objective really to make Britain a land fit for superstore chains to rake in monopoly profits?
  Sunday opening will be financially costly. The Association of County Councils states that the additional costs to the trading standards service alone will be £3·5 million, and that would be for only a skeleton service. There would also be the cost of checking additional fire precautions, the additional cost to private industry of discontinuing the present practice of carrying out road works on Sundays, extra costs of garbage disposal, extra costs of trying to ensure that children are not exploited as cheap Sunday labour, and extra costs of policing.
  The chief constable of South Yorkshire says that Sunday opening
  "will inevitably increase the policing costs and cause additional workload for foot patrol officers."
  It is the considered view of the Association of Chief Police Officers that Sunday opening will increase crime. Mr. Brian Hayes, the chief constable of Surrey, and the secretary of that association, states:
  "police presence on Sundays might need to be increased and the current practice of minimum manning would need to be reassessed. Parking regulations would require major revision to incorporate Sundays, as many"—[Interruption.]
  —this is the chief constable of Surrey; he may know a little more than do hon. Gentlemen about policing—
  "Parking regulatiions would require major revision to incorporate Sundays, as many existing regulations do not apply after 6.30 pm on Saturdays. The increased restrictions would then need to be enforced … Longer opening hours would provide increased opportunities for persons, particularly juveniles, to commit offences of theft, and there could be an increased risk to shop staff, especially female, who are required to take cash to the bank or to travel home during the hours of darkness. There is also a possibility of an increase in offences of public disorder, criminal damage and violence if late night shoppers come into contact with early evening drinkers."
  The Paymaster General and Minister for Employment (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): The right hon. Gentleman is opposing the repeal of the present legislation, and, most untypically for him, he did not answer the question of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Lyle). Is it his opinion that the chief constables of Surrey and elsewhere should begin a drive to enforce the present criminal law against the many shops, large and small, the garages and others, which at the moment are trading illegally?
  Mr. Kaufman: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is also a lawyer. He is unaware of the fact that it is not the job of the chief constable of Surrey to do that; it is the job of the local authorities. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had better stick to explaining why he is putting through Parliament a Bill which will take away the wages council protection which the Auld committee says should be retained.
  Mr. Clarke: I entirely concede that the right hon. Gentleman was correct in correcting me. It is for the local authorities to enforce the law. Many of those local authorities are Labour controlled. Now will he stop retreating into pedantry and answer the question? Is it the opinion of the Opposition that the local authorities should begin a drive to enforce the present law, and is that the basis upon which he is opposing the Bill's Second Reading? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]
  Mr. Kaufman: I shall answer. I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for acknowledging that Labour local authorities can be expected to enforce the law, whereas Conservative authorities presumably cannot.
  Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: We believe that the law should be enforced and respected, and we believe also that that should be done by Woolworth as much as by the National Union of Mineworkers.
  Mr. Tony Baldry: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Kaufman: No, enough is enough.
  Sunday opening could change the character of Sunday. That is accepted by the Auld committee, which admitted:
  "There can be no doubt … that widespread opening of shops on Sundays would affect the traditional character of the day very much more profoundly than the opening of cinemas, concert halls and theatres, or the holding of sporting events. The change would be likely to affect far more people in the way that they spend their Sundays, and would have a significant effect on the feel of the day."
  Mr. Fairbairn rose—
  Mr. Baldry rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: Last week the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster gave a notable address at St. James Church, Piccadilly. Some of that address, as one might have expected, was controversial, other parts were almost canonical. Indeed, on reading the text I had the feeling that the right hon. Gentleman was putting in his claim for the next bishopric that falls open. In his speech the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster called for a return to traditional values of decency and order. That call must have struck a chord with many people. He called for the
  "strengthening of the sense of personal obligations, most notably within families."
  He declared that many of our miseries
  "derive in great part from family disintegration and its causes—which are often spiritual and moral, not material."
  Many people of the right hon. Gentleman's party, of other parties and of no party, may have agreed with him. How, then, can the Government of which he is a leading member introduce a Bill which could weaken family life and lead to family disintegration?
  Mr. Robert Walker of Sears, a company which owns many large stores, including Selfridges, Lewis's and Mappin and Webb, said three days ago of the Bill:
  "Most of the staff is made up of women and most of those women are married. We feel it is hard enough for people with families to work on Saturdays, and if they have to work on Sundays it will be very hard indeed."
  The Family Policy Studies Centre estimates that if no more than half the shops opened on Sundays 350,000 shop workers would be required. These would include 94,000 mothers and 35,000 fathers. About 750,000 children would not be with their mothers and fathers for all or part of Sunday. The Bill will lead to many latchkey children being left unsuperivised and alone for long periods.
  In response to a survey, nearly three quarters of married shop workers and a majority of unmarried shop workers thought that Sunday work would harm their family life. Of the married shop workers, 48 per cent. said that Sunday was the only day when their spouse was also off work. Of single shop workers who live at home, most of whom are teenagers, 56 per cent. found that Sunday was usually the
  602
  only day that they could spend with their father. For 46 per cent. the same was true in relation to their mother. On the other days, either they or their parents were at work.
  Some hon. Members listening to me may ask, "What is it to do with him?" It is undoubtedly true that Sunday is not my Sabbath, but I do know something about the Sabbath. My father was a Jewish immigrant from Poland. He was a factory worker all of his life. He never earned much of a wage. He had a large and growing family to house, clothe and feed, but whatever it meant to his employment and promotion prospects he would never accept a job which required him to work on his Sabbath. In the jobs which he did obtain, regardless of the effect on his wages, he resisted all pressures to make him work on his Sabbath. For him, in his hard-working and often toilsome life, the Sabbath was held precious as a tranquil island in the stormy sea of the week. That is how many millions of people in this country feel about Sunday. If I respected my father for his defence of his Sabbath, must I not equally respect those millions who wish to defend their Sunday? The Prime Minister takes pride in being a conviction politician. It is, indeed, admirable to be a person of conviction. It is equally admirable to remember that other people have convictions. It is admirable to respect the convictions of others as much as one cherishes one's own.
  The convictions of many about the Bill are embodied in a statement made recently by Cardinal Hume, who said:
  "We must beware lest the principle prevail that the market should rule supreme seven days a week. Our principle is that there is more to being human than supply and demand; there is more to social life than trading and commerce."
  The bafflement of many was voiced by Lord Stockton, when he said:
  "this Bill … is saying that because it is impossible to please or satisfy some opinions, and in order to please some strange new doctrine of liberalisation, we should adopt all the worst elements of liberal Victorian tradition, which has somehow infiltrated my old party like some kind of disease."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 January 1986; Vol. 470, c. 159.]
  The warning of many was contained in a recent leading article in the Daily Telegraph, which declared:
  "measures which outrage the deep feelings of large sections of the community and command the enthusiastic support only of doctrinaires and a few large commercial institutions do not make good politics … democracy is ill-served by inflexible politicians who are insensitive to public feeling."
  Yes, the law is illogical and would benefit from reform, but that does not mean that this sweeping and uncompromising Bill, and only this Bill, is the answer. It does not mean that one set of convictions must trample underfoot a differing set of convictions and hold them for nothing.
  This country has evolved into the greatest democracy in the world, not by absolutism and dogmatism, but by Governments using their tempering power to accommodate and reconcile clashing and conflicting convictions. The outcome is often compromise—and sometimes untidy compromise. But our democracy is built on the foundation of a myriad of untidy compromises. That is how we live with each other. The ability to live with each other in harmony is the true test of democracy.
  Even at this late stage I advise the Government to withdraw the Bill. I advise them to call a conference of all interests—the Churches, trade unions, retailers, small and large, and the parties represented in the House—and try to work out an agreed change in the law that would be widely acceptable. That would be the sensible way.

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  That would be the way that our country usually works. If the Government are adamant against that way, I call on hon. Members in all parts of the House to vote against the Bill tonight.
  5.7 pm
  Mr. Francis Pym: The Bill did not make any contribution to the large majority that my party achieved at the last general election. Indeed, no mention of it was made during the campaign and, so far as I know, little or no thought was given to the topic. The irony is that it is now evident that the Government need their large majority to get the Bill through.
  Tonight's motion should have been on a free vote. I asked my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary as long ago as last autumn to allow a free vote. The Government are not prepared to allow a free vote and have chosen instead a three-line Whip on Second Reading, accompanied by the undertaking of free votes thereafter in Committee and on Report. That is an unusual device, to say the least, and might serve the needs of some of my right hon. and hon. Friends, but I think that it is a contradiction.
  The vote on Second Reading relates to the principle of the Bill. That principle is deregulation. If one is against that principle, as I am, I do not see how in honour or in conscience I can do other than vote against it. If amendments are carried later to introduce some controls and limitations which are not now in the Bill, the principle of deregulation to which the Government attach such importance will be altered. That is a contradiction. I regard the steps that the Government have taken to try to get the Bill through its Second Reading as a moral victory for their opponents.
  There is another unusual aspect of the handling of the Bill—the way in which the Government have directed their publicity campaign to justify pressing on with the Bill. That campaign blames the opponents for not coming forward with recommendations that would get the Government out of their own difficulties. But we, the opponents to the Bill as it stands, did not introduce the Bill. The Government introduced it. The Government have the enthusiasm and responsibility for it. They cannot absolve themselves from that responsibility, let alone blame anyone else for the difficulties that they face. Ministers thought that they could bend enough arms to get the Bill through, and maybe they can, but the dislike of it is widespread, and I wonder why it is being forced on the British people. The existing law is unsatisfactory—we are all agreed about that—but deregulation is not the only remedy. Plenty of other remedies are available, and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary mentioned several this afternoon. As he said, all of them have disadvantages, but there are also disadvantages in deregulation. The Bill is offensive and distasteful to many people, yet the Government brush that aside.
  Mr. Fairbairn: My right hon. Friend seems to think that this measure is being forced upon the British people; it is not. The Scots have always had deregulation. When the right hon. Gentleman was in high office, did he ever attempt to have deregulation removed from us Calvinists so that we would not suffer, as he opposes the English being given their liberty?
  Mr. Pym: I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend; I stand corrected."The British people" is not the correct description; it would be more accurate to refer to the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. [Interruption.] I mean England and Wales.
  It is hard to argue that the need for this change, as envisaged in the Bill, is urgent or crucial. At times Governments have to take unpopular action for some overriding need or in the national interest. This Bill, however, is not in that category and should not be treated as though it were. There is logic in the Government's argument that the law is not being obeyed in some cases and is difficult to enforce. The existing arrangement for Sunday trading is not the only example of that sort. It would have been wiser to find a better solution to the problem before legislating in a way that so many people dislike. In a matter of this kind, affecting the social life of our country, there should be a much wider degree of consent in the nation than exists on this measure.
  A comparison has been made with the situation in Scotland, which has been prayed in aid. I believe that tradition and ethos in Scotland have been, are, and always will be, different. In particular, Scotland has a deeply rooted and much stronger tradition in relation to Sundays than exists in England today, so the circumstances are different.
  Mr. Fairbairn: Rubbish!
  Mr. Pym: Well, I think they are different. The free arrangement in Scotland would have a different effect in England if applied here. That point is behind the argument used by some members of the Church of Scotland for saying that they themselves dislike the passage of this Bill.
  Some of my right hon. and hon. Friends believe that people are deprived of some freedom because Sunday is not like any other day, but it has been unlike any other day since creation, and long may it remain so. The Government believe that Sunday, or the Sabbath, will still be different even after the passage of this Bill. To the extent that it will still be the day on which some people go to church, it will be different. Many families will try to keep it special; no doubt many will succeed. But for many families, to do this will be difficult and perhaps impossible, especially those living near shopping centres or those who find that a member or members of the family have to work on Sundays when they do not want to work. This will apply particularly to shopkeepers who want to remain closed on Sundays but who find themselves forced by competition to open or else lose their livelihood. What a painful position in which to put people in the name of freedom!
  In trying to get the Bill through, the Government probably believe that some intolerable constraints that now exist will be lifted, and that the freedom to shop anywhere for anything on Sunday will bring joy and happiness to everyone. I believe that things will work out differently and that many people will regret the change. The character of Sunday will be altered, not necessarily immediately, but over a time. Over time, I fear that the change will have a much greater effect than the Government believe and one that the nation will live to regret. The Government no doubt believe that the Bill will liberate and enrich our lives. I share such admirable intentions, but I believe that the Bill and the method in it for effecting the change, far from enriching our lives, will ultimately impoverish them. That is why I will vote against the Bill.
  5.16 pm
  Mr. Donald Stewart: I support what the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) said about the Scottish situation, and I shall come to that matter. The right hon. Gentleman also raised an important point which, as legislators, we should seriously consider—that there is no mandate for this change. At the last two general elections the manifesto of the Conservative party has not mentioned any promise or intention to carry out such a revolutionary change as is proposed in the Bill in the pattern of life in the United Kingdom. The Government therefore have no right to proceed with it.
  The other day the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster referred to the misfortunes which had befallen the United Kingdom as a result of the legislation which produced the permissive society. I agree with a large part of that charge, but I would be much happier if he or the Government would say what legislation they propose to reverse the permissive society. Incidentally, the right hon. Gentleman referred, in passing, to the trumpet sounding an uncertain note. His remarks would have been more impressive if he had quoted correctly. Unfortunately, there is nothing uncertain about the Government's attitude to the Bill. A measure which most people would regard as involving a matter of conscience will be steamrollered through the House by a three-line Whip. I believe that that is an innovation which the Government will live to regret. To some extent, what the Conservative party does is its own affair. The Secretary of State for Scotland claimed that the Government had come to the Bill with an open mind, but in fact his failure to agree to a free vote on Second Reading shows the extent of the Government's open mind on the Bill.
  We have heard a great deal about the Auld report. The Auld committee took no evidence from Scotland, so the report does not cover the Scottish situation. Several companies, including Marks and Spencer, have announced that if the Bill becomes law they will open branches in Scotland, so there is a keen interest in that country in what will follow the passing of this legislation. It is a fact that when the original legislation covering England and Wales was passed no legal prohibitions were required in Scotland, for the very reason mentioned by the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East. There are other restraints on Sunday trading in Scotland, where there is also greater respect for the preservation of the Sabbath.
  Another fact is that in Scotland there is often no need for central Government statutes to preserve the Sabbath. Many firms are permitted to open under local authority byelaws. It is not uncommon for such byelaws to demand that there shall be no trading on Sunday, so it has not been necessary in many places for Scotland to go to the central Government for legislation to preserve the Sabbath.
  It is not true that one can go along the high street of a Scottish town on a Sunday and listen to cash registers tinkling away merrily. There is no demand for the Bill. I have previously challenged hon. Members to say whether their postbags were heavy with letters from constituents complaining of inconvenience or suffering as a result of the lack of such legislation, and not one could do so.
  On 3 March, when the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels) asked the Prime Minister how many
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  representations she and the Government had received about the Bill, she replied that there were 800 in favour and about 40,000 against.
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Waddington): Perhaps I might bring the right hon. Gentleman up to date. It is obvious that those who support the Bill were a little slow getting off the mark. The score is now 20,736 letters in favour and 47,000 against, and there are more names on petitions in favour of the Bill than on petitions opposing it.
  Mr Stewart rose—
  Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Stewart: I am replying to an intervention. I see that the Government have been working on their Back Benchers and in the country, but the figures are still quite instructive and make nonsense of the Home Secretary's statement.
  Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Stewart: Be quiet.
  Even the Minister's figures make nonsense of the Home Secretary's claim that there would be wide public indignation if the Bill failed. I believe that the exact opposite is the case.
  The Auld report says in paragraph 66:
  "It would, however, be misleading to leave the impression that there is an incessant general clamour for Sunday shopping or longer trading hours. Most people, even those who work full-time, do manage to buy what they need in the permitted times."
  A Harris poll, which covered England, Wales and Scotland, found that only 5 per cent. could answer, -A lot" and that 67 per cent. answered "Not at all," when asked:
  "Are you inconvenienced by most shops being closed on Sundays?"
  We can only conclude that the Bill is designed for the benefit of certain chain stores which want to strangle small businesses, which is curious in the light of the Government's professed aim of helping small businesses.
  The Bill is opposed by a significant number of large retailers, such as Boots the Chemists, Clarks shoe stores, the Co-operative Union, Dewhursts and Sears, Lewis's and Selfridge's. It is also opposed by the National Chamber of Trade, the National Federation of Meat Traders, the National Pharmaceutical Association, and the Multiple Shoe Retailers Association. On the spiritual side, it is opposed by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, the Moderator of the Free Federal Council and the churches of Scotland.
  Mr. Paddy Ashdown: Would the right hon. Gentleman like to add to that list the names of no fewer than seven Ministers who, on 4 February 1983, voted against a Bill which was substantially the same—the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton), the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Mailing (Mr. Stanley), the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), the hon. Member for Medway (Mrs. Fenner), the hon. Member for Peterborough (Dr. Mawhinney), the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Mr. Trippier) and the hon. Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke)? Among those who voted against that Bill, and might therefore be expected to oppose this Bill,

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  there were no fewer than three Whips — the hon. Members for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones), for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury) and for Reading, West (Mr. Durant).
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order. I should remind the House that 60 or 70 hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye and that interventions are made only at the expense of the speeches of other hon. Members. I shall have to take interventions into account when determining who catches my eye.
  Mr. Stewart: The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) has given some exceedingly useful information. I shall study the Division Lists.
  The shop workers' unions oppose the Bill. The effect on women who are employed in retailing and children is obvious. I shall not go into that, as others will deal with it adequately. The interests of shop workers are a legitimate and important concern, which I happily endorse.
  It is appalling that a party should be Whipped on an issue of conscience. No fewer than 91 per cent. of the public who were questioned in the Harris poll said that there should be a free vote. After this, the Government cannot put themselves forward as having any pretence to a belief in Christian morality. It is all the more reprehensible when one recalls the numerous private Members' Bills which were defeated. We will watch the reaction of the hon. Members whom the hon. Member for Yeovil mentioned.
  The real issue is the spiritual one. The Bill goes directly against God's plan for living. The fourth commandment is an integral part of the moral law of God and is therefore binding on all men. By denying this, a nation erodes its moral and social fabric. The scripture warns us:
  "Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set."
  The fourth commandment says:
  "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
  The proposals in the Bill would be irreversible. If the Bill is carried, the House and the country will be crossing the Rubicon, and the nation will suffer for it.
  5.26 pm
  Sir Paul Bryan: The House recognises the strength of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary's argument in favour of legislation. There must be legislation to get rid of the chaos of present Sunday trading laws. I would vote against the Bill if I was convinced that, as its opponents say, it is likely to change the special character of Sunday for the worse. That is why I have tabled the motion
  "That it be an Instruction to any Committee to which the Shops Bill [Lords] may be committed that the Bill be amended to give statutory recognition to the special character of Sunday."
  I would also vote against the Bill if I thought that it would affect family life for the worse.
  From my family circumstances, I am almost tailor-made as a recruit for the Archbishop's crusade against the Bill. I am the son of a parson, my brother was a canon, my daughter is a deaconess, I am the father-in-law of a vicar and I go to church. I almost qualify for a passport to Heaven. However, it appears to me that the case of the Archbishop and his friends is too much based on a fantasy
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  of Sunday — on what it used to be like once upon a time, and on what they would like it to be. There was a time, a long time ago, when a lot of people went to church.
  One of my pre-first world war predecessors as chairman of the company over which I used to preside in the west riding of Yorkshire employed his people for 56 hours a week and, come Sunday, preached to them in the Methodist chapel, so they had enjoyed the benefit of his words seven days a week. A lot of people went to church then, but there was nothing else to do. The great Sunday revolution has come not from shopping but from the motor car, the coach, and the fact that many people now own their own homes. When we talk about the "special" character of Sunday, we should look at facts and decide what people actually do on Sunday. In my part of the world —Yorkshire—those who live in the less salubrious areas such as Huddersfield, Halifax and Bradford get in their motor cars and motor over, usually as families, to Scarborough, Bridlington, Filey, the moors, the zoo at Kirby Misperton, Castle Howard and the rest.
  According to the Auld report, 10 per cent. of people in England go to church. I suspect that a higher percentage listen to and watch church services on the television and radio. Members of families do a lot of motoring, with fathers and mothers visiting their children and grandchildren and vice versa. That is all very healthy
  There are 30,000 caravans between Scarborough and Filey, and correspondingly thousands of families use them. Some families have yachts. Many have weekend cottages and others use boarding houses and hotels in Scarborough. More and more people are playing and watching games. People go to the cinema, and play bingo.
  During the past 30 years, house ownership has doubled, and gardening and do-it-yourself have become the great activities. Like many hon. Members, on Sundays people read the newspapers, go to sleep or watch television. Many families use the DIY stores on Sunday.
  That is what I see in my constituency, although the position may differ in other constituencies. I do not think that the church has all that much to grumble about. One can say that people are attracted away from church by those pursuits, but there is competition between activities and we must cope with it. I do not think that the "new Sunday" is detrimental to family life. Many pastimes are undertaken as a family. Despite all that activity, Sunday is a quieter day than others. Towns are much quieter on Sundays. [HON. MEMBERS: "They will not be."] I shall answer those interventions in a minute. It is against this wider, growing background of leisure activity that I ask whether it is really true that the opening of a few shops on Sundays will completely change the social scene and the character of Sunday.
  When considering the number of shops that will be affected by Sunday trading, we all speculate according to our prejudices. However, the Scottish example shows what actually happens, rather than what we imagine.
  Mr. George Foulkes: It is entirely different.
  Sir Paul Bryan: Multiple shops with dealings on both sides of the border have given details showing that shopping habits are similar on the two sides of the border.
  What are the facts in Scotland? According to the Auld report, 17 per cent. of people in Scotland go to church compared with 10 per cent. south of the border. Sunday trading does not, therefore, appear to cripple churchgoing.
  Mr. Foulkes: They are less corruptible in Scotland.
  Sir Paul Bryan: Apparently, prices in Scotland are not higher than they are south of the border.
  The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said a great deal about the work force. As I understand it, those who work on Sundays in shops in Scotland are, on the whole, perfectly happy about doing so. There are few complaints. Many married women find that Sunday shopping is convenient because part-time, unskilled work for which they may be highly paid is available.
  I know Scotland reasonably well. When I have motored through Scotland on a Sunday, the towns have been quieter than they are on other days of the week, just as happens in England. In America, where the number of churchgoers is much higher than here, families go to church in the morning, go on to the supermarket for lunch and then go shopping in the afternoon. That seems a pleasant family outing. Everyone enjoys it. On the available evidence I believe that, in a year or two, we shall wonder what all the fuss was about.
  The chambers of trade are understandably worried. One cannot say that Sunday trading will have no effect on all shops. It is bound to have some effect. One can, however, say that independent shops in Scotland do not seem to be worse off than they are in England.
  The real revolution in shopping has been caused not by Sunday trading but by the motor car which has led to the development of large stores on the outskirts of towns. The housewife used to do her daily shopping locally to fill her shopping bag. She now does her weekly shopping to fill the boot of her car and to fill her freezer. That has inevitably hurt the small trader.
  Local traders in my area recently sent me the findings of a poll showing that there is no demand for Sunday trading. That is not a good argument because, if there is no demand, there will be no effect on them. One should take notice of only those polls that measure what is happening or what has happened. If the polls forecast the future in hypothetical circumstances, they always get it wrong. The supreme example was broadcasting. When we had one BBC channel, the polls announced no demand for a second channel. Along came ITV, which soon had bigger audiences than the BBC. There was alleged to be no demand for BBC2 or a fourth channel. There was said to be no demand for expensive video recorders, but now they have swept the board.
  Mrs. Ann Winterton: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Sir Paul Bryan: I shall not give way. My hon. Friend will have opportunities to speak later.
  In conclusion, I do not believe that Sunday trading will have a deleterious effect on the family or on the special character of Sunday. I support the Bill.
  5.36 pm
  Mr. Thomas Torney: I declare an interest as a Member sponsored by the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. For many years before I became a Member, I worked as a full-time officer with that union.
  The Home Secretary was magnanimous in promising a free vote in Committee if the Bill is passed tonight, which I hope will not happen. A free vote would not be worth
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  anything if the Government Whips insisted on including on the Committee Conservative Members who were yes-men on Government policy. May we have an assurance that the many Conservative Members who oppose the Bill will be fairly represented on the Committee? I hope that the answer is yes, even though I hope that the Bill is defeated.
  I know from personal experience that shop workers have always been downtrodden, with poor pay and long unsocial hours. Even fringe benefits, such as holiday and sick pay and safety regulations, are comparatively new. The workers, usually members of the USDAW, have had to fight for them.
  The Bill should be renamed the Exploitation of Workers in Shops (Open All Hours, Including Sundays) Bill. The Bill opens the way for exploitation and victimisation of shop workers. Those who imagine that protection will be given to shop workers who are religious and conscientiously object to working on Sundays are living in cloud-cuckoo-land. With 4 million unemployed knocking on the shop door, plus the threat of a halt to promotion prospects, the shopkeeper can easily suppress conscience and religion.
  It is a fallacy for the Government to suggest that Sunday opening will create more employment. It will produce some part-time jobs, but only in shops, and only in shops that already have a considerable number of part-time workers. We want greater employment of full-time staff, but the Bill will further reduce the numbers of full-time workers to make way for part-timers. My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) quoted a letter from Hillards, which has supermarkets in my constituency. I have received a similar letter, and I endorse what he said.
  Mr. Baldry: Does the Labour party believe that the present law is satisfactory? If it is not, how does the hon. Gentleman, and the Labour party, suggest that it could be reformed? Can he make that clear to the House?
  Mr. Torney: My trade union, and certainly the Labour party, recognises the illogicalities of the present legislation relating to shop hours. However, the Labour Government never introduced a Bill of complete deregulation. Therefore, I pass the responsibility back to the Government, where it rightly belongs. They have introduced a Bill of complete deregulation. If they wish to move away from it, they must produce legislation to replace it. Surely it is not beyond the power of the experts in the Public Bill Office to assist the Government with that. The Government should withdraw the Bill and come back with something different.
  The often-quoted Auld report states that protection is required for shop workers, but with the Wages Bill the Government will abolish the protection provided by previous legislation. We hear much about the consumer and freedom of choice, but, if we look carefully, we find that there is plenty of choice and opportunity to shop. Many supermarkets and hypermarkets open as late as 8 pm on many evenings, and some stay open until 9 pm.
  The only reason for Sunday opening is for people who forget something. The shop workers' unions have agreements with many employers about late-night opening, and large firms will confirm that the unions have never been obstructionist on this issue. We merely want to protect our members and to ensure that proper premium payments are made if they must work late or overtime.

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  If the Bill is passed, it will contribute to making Sunday just another day, not only for shop workers but for all workers. There will be no premium or overtime payments for those who are called upon to work on Sundays. That should be a warning to all workers in industry. Once premium payments are abolished for shop workers—the wages councils have already disappeared — other workers will have to follow suit.
  Traditionally, Sunday is a peaceful day when families and friends, including thousands of shop workers, can get together and, even though it may require using a motor car, we want to keep it that way. The Government talk about the freedom to open or close, but they show complete naivety about modern distribution. It is clear that they have failed to think the issue through properly.
  There will be absolutely no choice for retailers, because they cannot afford to lose business to competitors who stay open. Competition in the high street is immense, and the margins on food are small. I assure the Government that if one shop on the high street opens, they will all open. I know that from personal experience. When I was a young man working in a shop, my boss would send me out to see whether the other shops were closing before he would agree to close. Most of the large retailing chains are opposed to Sunday opening, but many have categorically said that, while they oppose the Bill, if it is passed they will have to open.
  That brings me to a point about Scotland. The major chains in the south also have shops in Scotland. They have said that if the Bill is passed they will also open on Sunday in Scotland. I assure the House that the present laissez-faire position in Scotland will go to the wall if the Bill is passed.
  The point about large retail firms has already been made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton, so I shall not repeat the point about Hillards. Only so much money is available among the consuming public. Eventually all shops will open on Sundays if the Bill is passed, so that money will be spread over seven days instead of six. Therefore, there will be no extra trade. There will be extra trade only if a shop opens and others do not. That shop would then steal a march on the others. But, as the major retailers know that, they will all open and there will be no extra trade. Is that the price of the freedom of the few?
  Our traditional, peaceful Sunday will go, and obviously prices will be higher to cover the greater overheads of seven-day trading. Shops and their staff will be exploited, and eventually all workers will lose premium payments for Sunday. USDAW, the majority of shop workers and I say that if we cannot defeat the Bill tonight, we must defeat it in Committee.
  5.47 pm
  Mr. Mark Carlisle: Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym), I certainly support the Government and hope that the Bill will be carried, supported by my right hon. and hon. Friends.
  The main reason why I support the Government is that the present law is nonsense. It is illogical, full of anomalies, easily open to ridicule and out of touch with the reality of life today. It is widely disregarded, and those who must enforce it do not wish to do so. To the extent that it is enforced, it is patchy and unfair to individual
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  traders. To continue in that way brings the law into disrepute, and that cannot be right. In those circumstances, the Government are right to take responsibility and to act as they have done. I hope that those who accept the need for change will support the Government on Second Reading.
  Some of those who accept the argument for change tell us that, despite that, total deregulation and freedom do not provide the answer. However, I question whether there is a workable compromise. Having considered the various compromises, I am not convinced that that is so. All the options suggested are, to my mind, open to objection and would raise continued problems of enforcement.
  I shall give two examples. To attempt to extend and update a list of goods allowed to be sold on Sundays would lead rapidly to yet more anomalies and become out of date and out of touch with the needs of society. As many of my right hon. and hon. Friends have argued, the local option is not an alternative. That would merely be to pass the buck to others to decide in our place.
  Sir Raymond Gower rose—
  Mr. Carlise: I would rather not give way to my hon. Friend, as I know that many right hon. and hon. Members wish to contribute to the debate.
  The only sensible alternative to the present law is to give freedom to shops to open and to the public to shop if and when they wish to do so. I realise, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East has said, that there are many who are opposed to the Bill. The fact that I do not agree with their arguments does not mean, as some seem to imply, that I and others who share my view are not prepared to listen to what they have to say. I respect the sincerity of those who oppose the Bill and those behind the Keep Sunday Special campaign, but they should not try to hijack Sunday for themselves.
  It is reasonable and possible to like the traditional Sunday, to be a Christian and yet believe that someone, if he wishes, should be free to buy a mowing machine on a Sunday just as he is free at present to buy petrol to put inside one. It is reasonable to support the present traditional Sunday and believe in it, yet not believe that it is necessary to use the criminal law to prevent people who wish to shop from doing so. As my hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan) said, we allow many forms of commercial activity to take place on a Sunday. Public houses, restaurants and amusement arcades are open and professional sport takes place on a Sunday. I do not see on what moral basis we can suggest that it is wrong for shops to open when so many other places are open.
  It is said that Sunday is a family day and a day on which to relax. That is how many of us like to spend our Sundays. I would point out to hon. Members, however, that the members of many families find that the only day on which they can go out together is Sunday. If they choose to shop rather than indulge in any other form of outing, I fail to see what is wrong in that.
  Unlike the Bill's opponents, I do not believe that the effect of this measure will be to change the traditional Sunday. I believe that there is a demand for the Bill. The number of those who shop on a Sunday shows that to be so. I believe that certain types of shop will open widely once the Bill is enacted. It is my view that the fears which have been expressed by some of those who have already

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  contributed to the debate are exaggerated. After the early days, things will settle down and some types of shop will be open and others will not. In areas where there is demand, some shops will open; where that demand does not exist, they will not.
  We are not forcing anyone to open his shop on a Sunday and we are not forcing anyone to shop on a Sunday. The only objection to the Bill could be if we were seeking to force people who have strong and genuine objection to work on a Sunday. Despite what the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney) said, I do not believe that that will happen. I remind the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) that 4·5 million people already work on a Sunday—many of them not in essential services—and we do not complain about that.
  Mr. Peter Bruinvels: They do not all work every Sunday.
  Mr. Carlisle: I do not see why shop workers should necessarily work every Sunday. Shops open on a Sunday in Scotland and I understand that there is no shortage of people who wish to work in them. I am sure that will be the response in England and Wales.
  I believe that the concerns and objections are greatly exaggerated, as is the effect that the Bill will have on the traditional Sunday. As my hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry said, the Bill's opponents ignore the reality of Sunday.
  If we allow shops to open on a Sunday, it will be in response to those who wish to see a change of that nature. As I have said, the present law is nonsense. It is wrong to use the criminal law in this area. For those reasons, I support the Bill.
  5.55 pm
  Mr. Paddy Ashdown: I can readily and happily agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Warrington, South (Mr. Carlisle) that the present law is more honoured in the breach than in the observance, and is in many senses disreputable. I understand that there are those in the House and outside who hold views that are entirely principalistic in their nature, which the right hon. and learned Gentleman might regard as the Sabbatian view of Sunday. I do not believe that that view is held widely in the House, but it is one which deserves respect, and that respect should be accorded to it.
  There is no doubt in my mind—I believe that this is the prevailing view in the House—that the current legislation needs reform and amendment. It creates confusion and situations that are difficult for shopkeepers. The present law frequently leads to difficulties for those whose job it is to uphold the law. I am not opposed to reform in general, but that is not to say that I am in favour of any sort of reform, whatever its nature and implications.
  When I came to examine the Bill, I applied four criteria by which I would judge my attitude to it. First, I took the view that we should not go for entirely free licence; that we should not deregulate to such an extent that we destroy the essential nature and character of our Sunday. Secondly, I considered that there should be a requirement adequately and effectively to protect the rights of shop workers. Thirdly, I decided that the Bill should give local communities some determination of how the law might be applied in their areas to meet the different natures of our
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  various communities throughout Britain. Fourthly, I took the view that the Government should take into account—perhaps not in the Bill but in parallel legislation—the effect that the Bill would have on small retailers if it were enacted in its present form.
  The Bill fails to satisfy, not on one, but on all four of those counts. First, total deregulation is proposed—total free licence. The Bill sweeps away all regulations. If enacted, it would allow Sunday to become the same as any other day of the week. There are those who will be deeply offended by that prospect of religious principle, and I can understand that.
  For me there are even more important factors to be taken into account. There is a need for a rest day, when families can get together. This need is stated clearly in the Bible, particularly in the gospel according to St. Mark, which states:
  "The sabbath is made for man, and not man for the sabbath."
  It is essential that there should be that rhythm in our lives. It is a requirement that we have a day of rest. That view was expressed elegantly and powerfully by Lord Stockton in another place, when he said:
  "Let us remember that the great commandment that was handed down to God's chosen people was perhaps the greatest social reform in the history of civilisation; the concept that every man or woman, however humble, should have at least some period of rest."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 January 1986; Vol. 470, c. 160.]
  On that ground alone, the Bill could result in a fundamental and irreversible change to our Sunday. That will be important in its effect on the family, an issue which has been raised by right hon. and hon. Members already. It has been calculated that 1 million women will be drawn into employment on a part-time basis on Sundays if the Bill comes into effect. There has been a strong push towards part-time work, and the number employed in the retail sector has almost doubled over the past three years.
  I find it ironic, therefore, that, as the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) said, the Conservative party manifesto in 1983 made no mention of the legislation. But the manifesto went further than that. The manifesto which elected the Government said that the Tories were pledged to defend—I shall use their words precisely—Britain's "distinctive way of life" and
  "build a responsible society which protects the weak hut also allows the family … to flourish."
  The Bill will create conditions which will damage the one day of the week when, as the hon. Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan) said, the family can get together to enjoy those wonderful outings which he described as a family occupation. They will be disrupted because the mother or father, probably the mother, will be away working in a shop because she will be required to do so. The free licence will damage the family unit which the Conservative party at the general election pledged itself to protect.
  The Bill will do more than that. As currently drafted, it could cause significant damage to communities because it will introduce into communities a free licence for more traffic and more commercial operation on the one day when they can expect some peace. It will disturb the peace of many of our communities. Therefore, the Bill fails at that hurdle.
  Many right hon. and hon. Gentlemen have touched on the question of the protection of the rights of shop workers. It is true that partially, at least, the Bill protects the rights of such shop workers as are employed when the Bill comes

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  into force. However, it does not provide for a similar right in the future. I fail to understand the logic of that. If a right is worth protecting now, surely it is worth protecting in the future. Why should we make an arbitrary decision about what rights an individual shall have according to whether they are currently employed in a shop or employed in the future? If now, why not in the future also?
  But even the protection currently provided is wholly inadequate. The Bill has certain safeguards in respect of disciplining a shop worker who refuses to work on a Sunday. It prohibits that and it prohibits the sacking of a shop worker for refusing Sunday work. It does nothing, however, to safeguard a shop worker's ordinary expectations for promotion and advancement if he refuses to work on a Sunday. There are examples of that happening already. There was a recent example in Sheffield where a store manager was required to leave his £13,000 job because he refused to work on a Sunday.
  Those of us who complain about that issue have to face the fact that it would be impossible to protect completely the rights of shop workers by any form of legislation. However, we can provide some form of protection, even for those who would wish to join the profession in the future. A clause which makes it illegal to discriminate against someone who is not prepared to work on a Sunday could have an application similar to that which makes it illegal to discriminate on racial or sexual grounds. That is not perfect protection, but it can act as a bulwark against such discrimination and act as a mechanism for testing in the courts of Britain whether such discrimination has taken place. But no such provision exists in the Bill.
  Perhaps we should not be surprised at that, because when it comes to the protection of shopworkers we know that the Government take a purely minimalistic view. The Auld committee recognised that. The Government prayed in aid the Auld committee to support their position on the Bill. The committee clearly said that it felt that if Sunday trading was deregulated appropriate protection should be put in its place. But, as the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said, the Government have moved in precisely the opposite direction, by dismantling the protection of wages council and by massively reducing the amount of resources available to the inspectorate for employment and shops provisions and conditions.
  The Bill not only provides no protection, but will be used as an instrument for further exploitation of the very vulnerable and mainly young work force within the retail sector. On those grounds alone, even if the other criteria that I mentioned were satisfied, I would oppose the Bill.
  My final criterion was that of local option. Conservative Members have rightly asked how we can reform the Bill. I see nothing wrong with allowing an element, perhaps even a significant element, of local option. Indeed, it is interesting to note that the Auld committee was interested in that suggestion and said that it had some attraction. The problem for the committee was the inconsistency. Of course there are inconsistencies and differences in the various communities of Britain. There are differences between Bermondsey and rural mid Wales. Why should they have the same application of the law?
  We already give considerable freedom to our local government institutions and local authorities to determine car parking and housing policy, which are dealt with
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  differently in different areas. The same applies to taxi charges, education, collection of rubbish and even widows war pension relief. These touch on people's lives just as closely as shop opening. If we allow such inconsistencies now, why should we not allow them in this case? Why not frame within legislation the capacity to determine the hours the shop may open in one location or another within the ambit of the planning procedures? That would provide for a much clearer acceptance of the differences of the local conditions. Such inconsistencies which did arise would not be long lived where they were ridiculous, and where they were not ridiculous they would be consistent with genuine local differences of belief, practice, and environmental conditions.
  Mr. David Alton: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the local electorate were tested on the issue, it would succeed in a way in which the Bill fundamentally fails? A measure is being brought forward which has not been tested in an election, which is offensive to millions of people in this country and on which millions of people have never had a chance to vote.
  Mr. Ashdown: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is precisely the point. It would not only provide an opportunity to vote on this issue, which we have not had as it was not in the Conservative manifesto, but would allow the differences between our various local communities to be expressed.
  The Bill will unquestionably damage the network of small retail outlets in Britain. That case has been more elegantly made elsewhere. The Government pray in aid, for example, the experience of Sweden, where they say that 3,000 new shops have been opened. I ask Conservative Members to recognise that in Sweden a small retail outlet is one with fewer than 25 branches. That is hardly what we would consider to be in danger in this country. We also ought to recognise the fact that in Sweden the Government have a full package to assist small retail outlets. We know that no such package is under consideration by the Government.
  At the beginning of my speech I mentioned the issue of principle. There are principles and practicalities involved. For many, the principle will predominate. My party believes that this is, in part, for all of us an issue of conscience. We will therefore have a free vote. We do not understand why the Government will not allow a free vote. I must say in passing that I do not understand why the Labour party, which has made a considerable point on this issue, is not prepared to allow a free vote as well. However, returning to the Government, seven members of the Government Bench voted against the earlier Bill, and they will have to go into the Lobby tonight voting in favour of this Bill. Three Whips voted against the other Bill when it appeared before us. They will have to go through the process of Whipping their own colleagues in to vote for this measure. Only two years ago the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor), who is not in his place now, but was earlier, said:
  "There are important considerations and fears about the character of Sunday, … These fears are held in many parts of the House and I agree that they are an important factor. That is why the Government adhere to the view, which successive Governments have adhered to, that the decision must be for the individual conscience of hon. Members."—[Official Report, 4 February 1983; Vol. 36, c. 557.]

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  We are entitled to know why the Government have changed their mind on this issue. Why do they now use the disgraceful instrument of the party Whip to coerce Conservative Members to vote on what two years ago a Minister recognised as an issue of individual conscience? We are glad that there has been an admission that there will be no guillotine on the Bill.
  I am in favour of reform, but not any reform. I cannot support the Bill as it currently stands. The Bill in its present form will damage the essential character of our life in Britain. It will hurt the family, which the Government make such a virtue of seeking to protect. It will endanger the essential character of many of our local communities. It provides an instrument for the exploitation of shopworkers, whom the Government have already made one of the most vulnerable groups in Britain. It gives no power of determination to local communities. It will be a further blow to the fast-diminishing number of small retail outlets in our communities. It is being run through Parliament, against the Government's own commitments, by coercion by the party Whip and against the conscience of the Government's own members. I and many of my colleagues will oppose the Bill for those reasons.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Earlier this afternoon I gave an undertaking to the Leader of the Opposition that I would reconsider my decision not to select the reasoned amendment that is on the Order Paper in his name and the names of his right hon. and hon. Friends. I have done so, and I now say to the Opposition Front Bench that it will be in order for the hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. Dubs) to move that amendment when he rises to wind up the debate.
  Mr. Meadowcroft: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I heard the discussion with you earlier. I suspect that hon. Members are now placed in some difficulty. They thought that the debate was taking place on the basis of the instructions that were given from the Chair at the very beginning of the debate. Hon. Members are now in difficulty because they find that that former decision has been reversed. If, after pressure from one side of the House, your decision can be reconsidered and changed, Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that that is the moment when I stop the hon. Gentleman. I gave an undertaking that I would reconsider the matter. What I have announced does not in any sense narrow the debate, which was my concern.
  6.11 pm
  Mr. Neil Macfarlane: I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in the debate, Mr. Speaker. I assure you that I shall be brief, although, having heard the comments of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, I doubt very much whether there will be much brevity about the passage of the Bill in the remaining months of this Session. There is now an element of confusion, although I am anxious to do all that I can to help my colleagues on the Front Bench.
  My prime concern stems from what we might speculate will be the effect of the Bill. My concern is not so much about the present situation. The traditional Sunday has changed over the past 25 years. Nowadays even the younger generation would have some doubts about what
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  precisely a traditional Sunday is. I am often told that we represent the party that espouses Victorian values. I have never understood that fully. If that were logically applied and we had Victorian values, everywhere would be closed on Sundays, and we would have rather a joyless day.
  As I said, my concern stems from speculation about the effects of the Bill. I appreciate that there are many anomalies in the current framework of our legislation on retailing. I can well understand that the legalistic mind of the lawyer is anxious to have the Bill tidied up, but I have some sympathy for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary because he has picked up the policy from his predecessor.
  I do not want to tell my constituents in Sutton and Cheam when they should shop or which retailers should open and when they should open. As the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) and many Conservative Members have said, I do not believe that the Bill will improve the quality of life, particularly in the suburbs of towns and cities — I represent a suburban area—and that is my concern.
  As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington, South (Mr. Carlisle) said, there are now professional sporting events on a Sunday, and the motor car has opened up new possibilities. The framework of a Sunday is totally different from what it was. The fact is that what we are proposing will unquestionably change our Sunday. Those are the things of which we must be most aware when considering the matter over the next few months. We must understand what we are triggering off.
  I have never accepted the argument that the Bill will be a job creator, because I believe that all it will do is transfer the pattern through a seven-day week. We know that many retailers do not open on a Monday. They will simply transfer more to Sundays. The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney), who speaks for the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, made it clear that he expected an increase in the pool of part-time employment. I echo those sentiments. That is not good. I do not like it at all.
  The proposals of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will have a major impact on the people in the suburbs of our towns and cities over the next few years. As you will know, Mr. Speaker, representing a seat in an area not dissimilar from mine, over the past 10 or 15 years there has been a stark change in Good Friday. Good Friday, which is perhaps the greatest symbol of Christian hope, has now become a day like any other. I should have thought that it was logical that Sunday would become the same. I cannot believe that there can be any serious disregard for that argument. I think that Sunday will become like any other day. That may well be what a large proportion of the nation wants. It is what a large proportion of the nation already has now. We must work out precisely what we want to do and exactly what will be the bottom line in a few years' time. My hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan) said that in 15 years' time everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. I ant not certain that I share that opinion. We shall have to wait and see. I suspect that the Bill has some way to go before it reaches the statute book.
  I ask hon. Members on both sides of the House to consider the problems, such as the competition that many of the retailers will face. Many of them have already said that they will open, and others have said that they will not. I should have thought that the very fact that many of them

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  are committed to opening, such as W. H. Smith, Mothercare, DIY companies and other retailers that we know about, means that it is inevitable that some of those who have said that they will not open ultimately will. Who could blame them? They will have to open. I would not blame them for doing so. Many of them would be mad if they did not. In fine cities, such as Edinburgh and London, and in the north-east and the west midlands, where there is an element of strong tourist appeal throughout the year, it would not be in their interests to remain closed. The big retailers in Oxford street and Bond street, and in the centre of London, would also be mad not to open.
  Therefore, what we are proposing undoubtedly will have an effect. It will have an effect on young people who are starting out on a career in retailing. Their annual staff appraisal might include the words, "Quite a good company man" — or woman — "but won't work Sundays. Therefore, does not have the company's interests at heart." I think that that will begin to emerge.
  Mr. Michael Shersby: Does my hon. Friend agree that many small retailers will have to open, which will lead to a severe diminution in family life for them?
  Mr. Macfarlane: That is right. As we have heard before, the part-time jobs that could be created as a result of the Bill will be largely for students and women, and women are the anchor of the family.
  There will be an increase in noise and perhaps because vehicles will now be making deliveries on Sundays. In my constituency and in many others on the outer peripheries of big cities—the villages and more rural areas will not be affected so much—undoubtedly a transport manager will say to his staff and his board of directors, "I think I can save you several pounds per week per vehicle if you start to deliver on a Sunday," and jobs might disappear as a result of that. In my constituency, we have many major through routes. We already have much commuting traffic on a Sunday, and I think that there will be a major increase in that.
  I do not know whether my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, or indeed any of his colleagues on the Front Bench, wishes to see a dramatic change in our traditional Sunday, or the Sunday that they consider to be traditional. I suspect that their offspring might have different ideas about the traditional Sunday. I do not believe that they want to see that change. That is why we are beginning to see a slight shift in the policy and opinions of the Front Bench, for which I have sympathy.
  The Bill will change our way of life. It is not in the best interests of the country. Therefore, although I shall not vote against my colleagues, because my heart is still with them, I shall abstain and closely watch the Bill's passage in Committee, on Report and on Third Reading.
  6.19 pm
  Mr. Terry Lewis: That this is one of the most controversial measures to be brought before this Parliament cannot be doubted, especially when one witnesses the extent of the disarray on the Conservative Benches and notes the Government's recent reaction to the threatened rebellion of Back-Bench Members. There is no doubt that the hostile public response to the Bill has transferred from nervous Back-Bench Members to the
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  Government, even at this late stage, hence the apparent Whipping concessions. I hope that the Home Secretary's undertaking not to impose a guillotine if the Bill passes its Second Reading tonight will mean at least fundamental changes to the Bill. I hope, however, that the Bill will not overcome its first hurdle tonight.
  The battle lines are clearly drawn and opponents from all sections of society have come out firmly in vocal opposition to the Bill. Not least significant in the opposition to deregulation of shop hours are the churches. For once in my life, I completely agree with the various religious organisations. I am sure that the churches do not oppose the Bill to coerce the public into attending church on Sundays. Instead, they argue correctly that for hundreds of years Sunday has been a special day. That point has been made by many hon. Members. It is a day whose promise of rest, relaxation and family togetherness provides, in a contemporary sense, a break of sorts in our increasingly hectic and pressurised lifestyles.
  A strange feature of today's debate is that most hon. Members would rarely benefit from the advantages for which they argue on other people's behalf. That is certainly my position.
  The Lord Bishop of Winchester in another place provided the strongest argument against the Bill when he said:
  "Total deregulation is a too-drastic solution because it could well lead to the erosion of something we greatly value—a corporate rest day which gives identity to our community. We need these opportunities of rest and recreation for families, and recreation includes … worship … We do not want the cohesive character of … society to be sacrificed for the sake of greater commercial gain on Sundays."—[Official Report, House of Lords; 2 December 1985; Vol. 468, c. 1103.]
  I say "Amen" to that.
  To counter such arguments, supporters of the Shops Bill say that the special character of Sunday is rapidly disappearing from our society. In their view, abolishing Sunday trading restrictions would be an appropriate response to these modern times. There is no doubt, however, that a significant majority of the population favours the maintenance of a special Sunday that does not become just another day. My post bag reinforces my view that the special character of Sunday should be preserved as far as practicable as a day of leisure in which a person is not required to pursue his or her weekday work and is free to do what he or she chooses.
  The question then becomes whether the liberalisation of the trading laws will alter the special character of Sunday. Paragraph 132 of the Auld report, on which the Government justify the Shops Bill, states:
  "Widespread opening of shops on Sundays would affect the traditional character of the day very much more profoundly than the opening of cinemas, concert halls and theatres"—
  that point was made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman)—
  "or the holding of sporting events. The change would be likely to affect far more people in the way that they spend their Sundays, and would have a significant effect on the feel of the day."
  That is just one of the many cases in which the Auld committee's conclusions are hardly supported by its arguments. It is clear that Sunday trading would hasten rather than respond to the demise of our traditional special Sunday.
  I return to the economic effects of unrestricted Sunday trading. The Auld committee, again to determine the likely effects of the Shops Bill, commissioned a report

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  from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Although the committee chose to regard that report as the final word on the subject, the IFS begins its report with an explicit disclaimer:
  "The principal conclusion reached is that it cannot be decided on a priori grounds whether the restrictions on consumer choice, inherent in limitations to trading hours … could nevertheless yield overall benefits. The fact that shops choose to open on Sundays does not guarantee that the gains derived from greater consumer choice will offset the additional costs involved. A final assessment must depend on an empirical study of the costs and benefits involved, and this has not been addressed previously."
  I reject that suck-it-and-see approach, but to rely on empirical evidence sells the pass with regard to maintaining our traditional Sunday.
  Staying with the IFS report for a moment, and referring specifically to the suggestion that a 13 per cent. increase in opening hours would lead to a 10 per cent. increase in costs, I must register my profound unease at some implications of that. There is no doubt that there would be an insufficient increase in retail trade to make up for the increased costs. As a result, the costs per unit of sales would necessarily increase to the detriment of consumers. In the long run, as has been said, smaller stores that operate on the margin will be squeezed out of business. The consequence will be that the highly regarded convenience of the local store will disappear and once again, and this must be repeated, the less mobile, the sick, the elderly and families without personal transport—not everyone has a motor car—will suffer inconvenience. Indeed, there is little doubt that their cost of living will increase commensurately as retail domination forces prices up, as I forecast it will if the Bill is passed.
  I would have wished to say more on this important matter, but in the interests of brevity and because I want to hear the speeches of many more Conservative rebels, I shall conclude my remarks. I pray in aid the IFS report on which the Auld committee placed such store. The IFS concluded that as many as 20,000 workers would lose their jobs as a result of open-all-hours trading. With unemployment at such an intolerable level, that would serve only to exacerbate an already unacceptable position. That alone is too high a price to pay for the dubious benefits claimed for the Bill. However, just as worrying is the nature of the job losses. The jobs that will be lost will tend to be full-time jobs that require some skill and training. Full-time jobs also tend to lead to the development of jobs in which employees rise within a company, acquiring more skill and loyalty to the firm. To replace those jobs with unskilled, part-time employees is undesirable. That is why I shall oppose the Bill. I hope that many Conservative Members will do the same.
  6.27 pm
  Sir Peter Blaker: I refer to the letter that has been sent to all right hon. and hon. Members by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster and the Moderator of the Free Church Federal Council. They make several points which I wish to discuss. The letter refers to a large petition against the Bill. My constituency experience is that considerably more people support the Bill than oppose it. We know from opinion polls that were taken in 1984 and 1985 that a vast majority of people favour seven-day shopping in England and Wales. I understand that, for union members,
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  the percentage is even higher than for non-union members. Therefore, it is clear that the majority of people want us to give a Second Reading to the Bill.
  The second point of the Archbishop and his colleagues is that they do not wish to throw away the special character of Sunday. I have been enormously impressed throughout the debate by the confidence with which so many hon. Members have forecast exactly what horrors will result from the Bill. Many of the Bill's opponents have remarkable powers of foresight. That was especially true of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman).
  I am much less confident about what will happen in the future, but I believe that the special character of Sunday will not be destroyed. I cannot prove it beyond doubt, but I believe that there is relevant evidence.
  As Aneurin Bevan said,
  "Why look in the crystal ball when you can read the book?"
  For me, the book is Scotland. I am half Scottish, although that does not give me a particular claim to interpret the Scots. Nevertheless, I believe that Scotland is more like England than it was some years ago because of the pressures to which my hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan) referred in his impressive speech in support of the Bill. Mobility, television and all the other modern pressures have made the different parts of this country far more similar than they were 50 years ago. The large number of Scots who come to Blackpool seem very similar to the people who come from Yorkshire, the south of England and elsewhere, except that they tend to enjoy themselves rather more vociferously. I believe, therefore, that Scotland provides the best evidence available. I should apologise to those who oppose the Bill for actually referring to facts, but it seems perfectly clear to me that the special character of Sunday is alive and well in Scotland. Some of my Scottish hon. Friends may wish to comment further on that.
  It has been suggested that the Scottish experience is not relevant to England and Wales, but if the effects of liberalisation turn out to be different in England and Wales from those which have occurred in Scotland, it will be because the people of England and Wales want them to be different. It is not right to use the criminal law to try to prevent the people of England and Wales from following the course, the culture and the life that they wish, especially as the present law is already in such disrepute. That would be a most unwise course to follow. If Scotland is still a more sabbatarian society, it is surely remarkable that Scotland can accept deregulation with enthusiasm while in a less sabbatarian society, if such it be, people are arguing against deregulation. It seems to me that that argument works in the opposite direction from the way in which it has so far been used.
  With regard to the anxieties of the Archbishop and his friends, I remind the House that 16 per cent. of people in Scotland still go to church while the figure for England and Wales is only 10 per cent.
  The Archbishop and his friends were also concerned about what they described as the "commercial imperative", suggesting that
  "we can expect a steadily rising trend over the next 5 to 10 years which ultimately will make Sunday barely distinguishable from Saturdays."
  Again, they ignore the experience in Scotland and the fact that fewer than 20 per cent. of shops in Scotland are open on Sundays. I think that the House will agree that if anyone

  623
  recognises a commercial imperative when he sees one, it is a Scot. Therefore, I am not greatly impressed by that argument. The Archbishop and his friends, like many Opposition Members, seem to think that shopkeepers enjoy making a loss. In my experience, if shopkeepers think that they will make a loss they do not open, which doubtless accounts for the fact that fewer than 20 per cent. of shops in Scotland are open on Sundays. I am therefore not impressed by that argument either.
  The Archbishop and his friends also fear that shop workers will suffer, but an opinion poll has shown that 72 per cent. of the people in Scotland who work on Sundays wish to be allowed to continue. Again, why look in the crystal when we can read the book? Scotland is the open book.
  The Archbishop and his friends hope that the House will not support the Bill
  "unless it is substantially amended to protect the traditional character of Sunday."
  We cannot amend the Bill unless it receives a Second Reading. We should therefore give the Bill a Second Reading and then consider the exact form in which it should emerge on to the statute book.
  Deregulation is popular in Scotland. An opinion poll in 1985 showed that 98 per cent. of respondents in Scotland thought that the quality of life had not been affected. Sunday it still different from other days of the week in Scotland. It is still a day of leisure and a day for the family. People shop as families, especially for joint decision purchases such as lawnmowers, to which reference has already been made. People do not find themselves compelled to work against their will. There is no shortage of volunteers to work on Sundays. According to the evidence that I have seen, small shops in Scotland have not suffered. Prices have not risen as a result of Sunday opening. I understand that when a questionnaire was sent to various churches in Scotland asking whether they felt that there should be more regulation, the only reply received was from the Free Presbyterian Church which has only 16,000 members. The evidence that I have, therefore, is that the Scots are content with their situation and cannot understand what all the fuss is about in England and Wales.
  Mr. Sheerman: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Sir Peter Blaker: In fairness to others, I would rather not give way.
  With deregulation, Sunday is still special in Scotland and I am not convinced that the situation would be any different in England. Sunday in England has certainly changed in the past decade. Until very recently the cathedral shop in Canterbury was open on Sundays and selling the "Good Pub Guide" to Kent. I do not complain about that. It is a sign of the way in which attitudes have changed.
  Sunday is special in England in another important respect—the extent to which the law is defied. I believe that when the law is so widely defied the time has come to consider changing it.
  There are two options before us. The first is to reject the Bill, in which case the existing law will have to be enforced far more rigorously, which I believe will be deeply unpopular with the vast majority of people.
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  Interestingly, the spokesman for the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Gorton, refused to answer questions about the Labour party's attitude to this because he knew that to insist on enforcement of the law as it stands would be deeply unpopular. I therefore look forward to hearing from the Labour party—
  Mr. Sheerman rose—
  Sir Peter Blaker: I do not want to hear from the Labour party now, but I look forward to hearing in the Opposition winding-up speech about the attitude of the Labour party to enforcement.
  The alternative, which I must prefer, is to give the Bill a Second Reading and thus allow the House, while keeping Sunday special, to bring the law into line with what people want and with common sense.
  6.38 pm
  Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: When the House last discussed Sunday trading, it was addressing one of those intriguing areas of public policy in which there are sound arguments on both sides, but that was last May and the position is no longer the same. The balance of the argument has shifted against Sunday trading, thanks to opposition in the other place and the Keep Sunday Special campaign, whereas the supporters of the Bill have had nothing new to say, save the surprising claim of the Home Secretary today that he has now received more signatures in support of the Bill.
  The Home Secretary starts from the basis that if the law is being openly broken it must be changed. But how openly is it being broken and where are the black spots? In any event, does not a duty of enforcement lie with district councils? When and how far have district councils been encouraged by the Home Office to do their duty? The Government's only response has been to call for a change in the law. The Government plead that there are anomalies, but, given the extent to which retailing has changed since the war, it is scarcely surprising that anomalies have arisen. Must we really go the whole hog to the deregulation of shop hours to resolve them? What defeatism! Do we need Sunday trading because district councils receive no guidance from the Government?
  That is certainly not the case in Sheffield, where the city council last month reaffirmed its opposition to the Bill. This opposition is supported by the Sheffield Council of Churches, the chamber of trade, Family Concern, the two trade unions principally involved—the GMBATU and USDAW—and by all but one of the representations that I have received.
  The only exception within my constituency has come from the local Asda, which wants the Bill. But Asda makes no mention of the Bill's impact on its workers or on local residential amenities. It does not appear to have occurred to Asda to ascertain how far local residents want heavy lorries, noisy deliveries or impossible parking to split asunder their quiet traditional Sunday.
  How many Members of Parliament who tonight plan to vote for Sunday trading live near a supermarket or have checked with those of their constituents who do? I wonder whether there is even one such Conservative Member. Are the Government therefore insisting that for a city such as Sheffield—or south Yorkshire as a whole—there is no case for a local option, and that the local authority be allowed to establish, either through its elected councillors

  625
  or by a local referendum, whether there should be Sunday opening and, if so, the permitted hours? Environmental judgments of this order are taken daily by planning authorities. To extend a power over Sunday trading in this way would enhance local democracy and thus provide for choice.
  Those who say that shops need not open must be unaware of what is now happening to retailing both at home and overseas. It is clear from the Home Secretary's speech that he does not know what is happening in Sweden, and he is even less aware of what is happening in the United States, given what he said about small shops being unaffected by seven-day trading. No other Bill has been presented to the House with less sureness of touch and confidence. The Home Secretary's performance was inept and unimpressive.
  Fierce, uncompromising competition has changed the face of retailing. The number of retail outlets has halved in the last 25 years, and 60,000 small shops have gone in the past 10 years. I speak not as a theorist, because my family is involved in the retail sector and in a small shop. I know what I am talking about. Those who survive are under great pressure. With the proportion of national income devoted to spending in the shops down from 46 to 36 per cent. since the war, the overriding incentive is to retain market share. Among the national department stores and supermarkets, some have notoriously and quite unscrupulously sought to bounce Parliament into unrestricted opening hours, and some Conservative Members are falling for it.
  The Home Secretary says that there is no workable compromise, but I have offered one. He claims that there is a large public demand for Sunday opening, but the March survey by Harris finds differently. He declared that implementation of the Bill will not stop Sunday remaining special. But if large parts of the community go out each Sunday morning to serve in shops, if the streets are never to know the stillness of non-working days, and if husbands are chivvied by wives to drive or accompany them to a supermarket, things will be very different.
  The Home Secretary does not believe that there will be any great increase in public spending on public services. That is not the finding of the Association of County Councils' independent survey. The right hon. Gentleman argued in last May's debate that prices would not be affected by Sunday trading, but when more corner shops have closed and competition is reduced, price movements will undoubtedly reflect costs and rise. At present, small shops are only just hanging on in the face of such competition.
  I am very close to the retail trade. I am not merely a member of the all-party retail group; I am involved in the retail sector as well—at the poor end, which is under pressure, which has given so much ground in recent years and which, frankly, is terrified of this Bill. In recent days I have been at pains to consult over as wide a cross-section as possible, and I know of no one who is not opposed to the extension of Sunday trading. Shopkeepers believe that such a development will be detrimental to themselves, their families and retail workers, but if their competitors are to open, they insist that they, too, will have to open, whether they like it or not.
  When Sunday is an ordinary shopping day, it may become an ordinary working day for many people in addition to those employed in the retail trade. Can we not
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  have one day off, free from normal pressures, to provide opportunities for rest, recreation, reflection and worship? Must all the seven days now become the same?
  Of course Sunday has changed, and it may now involve some of us in travel and organised recreation. But, as Cardinal Hume warns, there is a balance to be kept. The freedom to pursue leisure interests for some involves others in the obligation to work. There is more to social life than trading and commerce. Genuine humanism requires such a perspective. That is confirmed by the Christian vision of Sunday. That is why, if the roles were reversed, I would continue to believe that it is in the public interest to preserve the traditional Christian Sunday. Therefore, nothing would induce or pressure me into action that is calculated to threaten the traditional Christian Sunday.
  The plain truth is that there is no overwhelming demand for the Bill, but a large proportion of the electorate, consisting only in part of churchgoers, bitterly oppose it. Small shopkeepers, as well as shop workers, feel threatened by it. On 4 March, the Daily Telegraph said:
  "Measures which outrage the deep feelings of large sections of the community and command the enthusiastic support only of doctrinaires and a few large commercial institutions do not make good politics."
  In the opinion of the Catholic bishops of England and Wales:
  "The present law may indeed be flouted and in need of tidying up. We do not think the alternatives have been adequately proposed or examined."
  In the light of the debate so far, I do not see how any hon. Member can quarrel with that judgment.
  6.47 pm
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: It would be a mistake for any hon. Member who is opposed to the Bill to say that there is no need for a revision of Sunday trading law. On the contrary, there is great need for a revision of the law, not only because it is anomalous, but because much of it is unnecessary. What is more, there are parts of the Bill that are desirable, and I personally believe that the deregulation of shop hours on weekdays is justified. I would support that if it were the only part of the Bill.
  But the question for answer is whether total abolition of the restrictions on Sunday trading is necessary in order to achieve the abolition of the anomalies. To put it another way, is a balance between commercial considerations and respect for Sunday as a special day desirable and possible? I believe that it is.
  Let me also say straight away that I do not believe that this is a party political matter. Conservatives are not libertarians. We are not devotees of the free market to the extreme, certainly not to the extreme that involves conflict with a deeply rooted institution in the life of the British people and a part of our Christian heritage. Woe betide any Conservative party that goes against such institutions, because the Conservative patty should at least live up to what its name implies—change only when there has demonstrably been a case for such change that does not destroy existing institutions. For that reason, although I sympathise with the wording of the reasoned amendment which has been selected, I arid many of my hon. Friends who oppose the Bill will not support that reasoned amendment, because we want to make the point that this is not a matter of party politics. We shall march into the No Lobby under nobody's banner but our own.

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  The Home Secretary offered consultations and mentioned certain procedural arrangements made by the Government to assist in the consideration of the Bill at this stage and beyond. Unfortunately for him, he said that the Government had an open mind on the matter. How on earth does he reconcile that with a three-line Whip on the principle of the Bill? I am sorry that he did not give way when I tried to put that to him during his speech. The principle of the Bill is the total abolition of all restrictions on Sunday trading. How can he say that he has an open mind when everybody is compelled to vote for that principle? That makes nonsense of the procedural concessions offered by my right hon. Friend.
  The Government have made a number of tactical ploys. The offer of a Special Standing Committee appears to be a good idea— if only the Bill were suitable for that purpose. The specialist work of the Standing Committee has been done for us. That is what the Auld committee was for, and, whatever one might think about the conclusions of that committee, one knows that it did a good job in assembling the facts and marshalling the arguments.
  Mr. Hurd: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Stanbrook: I shall give way to my right hon. Friend, although he did not give way to me.
  Mr. Hurd: I seek to be helpful to my hon. Friend. I gave way extensively, and my hon. Friend rose towards the end of my speech. I am sorry that I did not give way to him, and I shall try to be helpful on the point that he has made. The Bill creates an empty site. It sweeps away a piece of legislation which, as my hon. Friend said, is inadequate. I do not think that he or anybody would argue that the matter can be righted simply by amending the 1950 Act. The Second Reading would clear the site, and the site is best cleared.
  Mr. Stanbrook indicated dissent.
  Mr. Hurd: My hon. Friend disagrees, and that will have to remain a disagreement between us. However, we all agree that the existing Act will not do, and giving the Bill a Second Reading will enable the Standing Committee, through the procedure that we have acknowledged, to construct, if it so chooses, a new building. That seems a perfectly logical and reasonable proceeding.
  Mr. Stanbrook: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I hope that I shall be exempted from the ten minute rule because my right hon. Friend's intervention has taken so long.
  Mr. Speaker: I shall bear that in mind.
  Mr. Stanbrook: The point that my right hon. Friend does not appear to have grasped is that, if he gets a majority on Second Reading, it will logically be impossible to get a majority on any amendments to regulate opening hours on Sundays. The Government's argument will be that we have voted for the Second Reading. They will say, "You voted for the total abolition of restrictions on Sunday trading. How can you now seek to put in restrictions that will make total abolition impossible?" That is what would happen, and my right hon. Friend should know that the same thing applies about the offer of a free vote in the Standing Committee. Who
  628
  will pick the members of the Standing Committee? If it is the Committee of Selection and it bears in mind that members of the Committee are to have a free vote, its composition may well be quite different from what my right hon. Friend would like it to be.
  If the Bill fails tonight, that is it, but if it goes through I hope that my right hon. Friend will give encouragement to the adoption, where there appears to be a sizeable agreement, of an amendment that will keep Sunday special. The three-line Whip is an affront to the consciences of many of my hon. Friends. Even my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip has agreed that this is a matter of conscience. Everyone will agree that the restrictions on Sunday trading are not matters of conscience, yet we have a three-line Whip, compulsion, on a question of conscience, and we are given a free vote on the detail of restrictions. My hon. Friends have been misled by the Government's procedural tactics on the Bill to induce them to abstain on the vote, but they ought not to abstain. This is a clear-cut issue; either we abolish all restrictions on Sunday trading, as the Bill requires, or we consider a compromise, a balance, between those interests we know run deep, between the needs of modern commerce and the need to respect our traditional Sunday.
  The Government should have offered us a free vote. If they had lost they could have said it was an honourable cause but that they had taken the view that the matter was susceptible to a free vote. If they had won, they could have cut the ground from beneath the feet of their opponents by saying that on a free vote this Bill on total deregulation had got through and that they were entitled to go ahead—as they now intend.
  It is no satisfaction to me to oppose the Government on this issue because in many other respects the Government have done splendidly. However, they seem to have had a tendency recently to make errors of political judgment. This is not the first such error, but let us hope that it will be the last.
  6.59 pm
  Mr. Laurie Pavitt: My speech will parallel that of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) because my mind is running along similar lines. Hon. Members have been canvassed more on this issue than the average voter in Fulham has been canvassed in the last month. Our postbags have been full and we have had the facts, the polls and the figures. I do not propose to weary the House with the selected points in favour of my case for opposing the Bill because that has already been done. In the Auld report and in the information from polls that we conducted a number of points emerged. I am sorry that the Home Secretary did not give way when I tried to intervene. During his speech he allowed only one member of the Opposition to intervene. However, I will make the point now. As the House knows, I have been a Co-operative sponsored Member of Parliament. I am proud to have been, although I am no longer so sponsored because I am no longer a candidate, but I have been during the whole of my time in the House.
  I wanted to ask the Home Secretary about his selection from the report by the Co-operative international research people. He gave just two sentences and failed to go through the report in which the whole of the Co-operative movement came down solidly against the passing of this Bill. The impression he gave the House, probably unwittingly, was quite the opposite. The hon. Member for

  629
  Orpington has put his finger on the biggest botch-up of all time. I agree with the Home Secretary that the ground should be cleared because this is a ramshackle, jerry-built Bill. It is the most complete muck-up of the many mucked-up Bills that I have seen and the obvious thing is not to tinker about with the expertise of the Patronage Secretary or with the ways and means of circumventing the opposition to this Bill, but to take it away, finish this Bill tonight and start all over again.
  I hope that a considerable number of right hon. and hon. Members will vote against the Bill. That will give the Home Secretary what he wants. It will clear the ground so that he can then have full consultation with all concerned and produce a second Bill that will receive consensus support. It has emerged from the debate that there is a consensus on a number of issues.
  We all agree that the law has to be changed, that we have to accept changes in modern retailing, and that there should be protection for the special character of Sunday. A number of my local clergymen have been on to me about this, including the Bishop of Willesden. There is also much agreement on the subject raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney) concerning the effects of the Bill's provisions on shop assistants.
  The ground could be most effectively cleared, and the Government would be showing a little political acumen for a change, if they would accept the decision of the House and introduce a new Bill at a later stage. Why is there such a hurry? Why is the Prime Minister so insistent that this legislation goes through here and now? Are the Government to have an election next June? Are they anxious to get this on the statute book immediately? There should be plenty of time for the Government to take away this botched-up Bill and get it right. This is not a party political point of view, because opposition to the Bill comes from both sides of the House.
  The Auld report dealt thoroughly with wages councils. It said that if any changes were made, at least for retail distribution, the wages councils must be maintained. The Government have fudged that one, because by altering the rules and regulations they have left the wages councils in existence, but emasculated them so that many people who will be affected by the Bill, if it becomes law, will not be protected by wages councils.
  I remind the House of the importance of the shop assistants and the wives of the people concerned. When the House passed the Licensing Act many years ago, when I first came to the House, the breweries were anxious that the pubs should open on Sundays until three o'clock because it would be beneficial to them. However, the publicans' wives said that this would interfere with their family life. The House made sure that pubs closed at two o'clock so that the roast beef and Yorkshire pudding could be consumed.
  Certain philosophies are running behind both the desire for the Bill and opposition to it. Ever since I came to the House, we have been moving more and more towards a materialistic society, but there are other values. The quality of life is even more important than the quantity in it. As a young man, I was very impressed by the Earl of Stockton's book, "The Middle Way". He made a strong appeal for what he considers to be true Conservative values, and he set those out again recently in the other place. Therefore, I hope that Conservative Members who
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  feel keenly about this will behave as I am sure that he would have done had he still been in the House. I hope that they will go into the Lobby and reject the Bill.
  We should allow a breathing space so that all the interested parties can feel that they are participating in giving advice on the ultimate decision rather than being told what will happen. A breathing space would give us the opportunity to clear up the mess of the Bill with all its anomalies, and replace it with something based on the best traditions of the House, and on the tradition that we wish to preserve—that not all the days in the week are the same.
  As Members of Parliament we go to many different churches, although I cannot claim to be a member of any. However, this matter affects not just churches. We must establish the importance of having a whole day in which one can breathe a sigh of relief because the pressures are off. The Bill would put the pressure on in an unacceptable way, and, as it is unacceptable, I hope that many Conservative Members who feel as I do, and I know that there are, will take their courage in their hands and vote against the Bill.
  I have been a Government junior Whip and I know the power of a Whips' Office. The proposal to allow a free vote upstairs is not worth the paper on which it is written. However, because of the way that Committees are run, the Patronage Secretary is all-important and the payroll vote is sufficient to make sure that the Government get their way. Therefore, our only hope is that the Government will change their decision, that this Bill will not get its Second Reading and that this important matter gets a fresh start.
  7.5 pm
  Sir Adam Butler: Time does not permit me to comment fully on other speeches, but I shall pick up one point made by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman). He chided some Conservative Members as being unlikely to stay on until midnight. However, matters of conscience are a 24-hour business. Those who intend to vote against the Bill will be here. We are worried that there will be laxity on the part of the Opposition, so I ask him to spend some time between now and midnight making sure that all his troops are here, particularly as I understand that the Opposition have a three-line Whip to vote against the Bill.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) deserves some commendation for the way in which he has held steadfast not just in opposing the Bill but in organising the opposition on Conservative Benches. Much to the discomfort of the Government Front Bench, we have maintained solidarity throughout. I hope that that solidarity can be maintained if we have to debate the Bill through its various stages.
  I speak as a practising member of the Church of England—I am a church warden. At one time I was compelled to work on Sunday when I was a shift worker in a continuous manufacturing process, so I know from my own experience something about the arguments. There are many arguments, and it is important to concentrate on the important ones. I make no apology for repeating the argument already put by, for example, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) and my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington.
  We have to grasp the simple point that is fundamental and crucial to the debate. Despite all the arguments and inducements, this issue must decide how we vote today.

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  It is all very well to argue that the Bill may be amended in its progress. If the Bill is in a different state by the time it gets to Third Reading, so much the better, and we can judge whether or not to oppose it on that occasion. However, the principle of the Bill is not, as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary would have us think, merely clearing the ground for possible amendment. It provides for total deregulation of shopping hours throughout the week and on Sunday. That is what the Government and the Bill's supporters want, but it is not what I want.
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is trying to persuade my hon. Friends who might be inclined to vote against the Bill to give it a chance and an opportunity for amendment. If my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General, who is to wind up the debate, will, together with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, take the lead in amending the Bill, we may have other thoughts. However, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has already said that the Bill as it stands is preferable to any amendment, so his mind is not open; it is committed. The House might decide otherwise, but my right hon. Friend's mind is committed.
  The Government's case rests on the libertarian principle of removing statutory restraints and letting the people decide. That is a fine, but dangerous principle, and it is not exclusive. What is government about if it is not to restrain the will or the actions of the people? Governments have done it again and again.
  Mr. Fairbairn: No.
  Sir Adam Butler: Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend should reflect briefly about compulsory helmet wearing for motorcycle riders. Why should that not have been left to the will of the people? Why should not the compulsory wearing of seat belts be left to the will of the people? The principle does not apply as widely as the Government would have us believe.
  I have to ask whether the Government want to see the character of Sunday changed. Do the Government want to see the high street opening up for the whole of Sunday as it does on a weekday? Do they want Sunday to become like any other day of the week? I do not believe that they do. I do not believe that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary does. In fact, he has assured us that he does not want that to happen. We know from letters that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has written that she does not want that to happen.
  What is the Government's approach to this? The Government say that that will not happen or, if it does, it will be because the people have so decided. The Government have a responsibility to ensure that that does not happen by avoiding that risk. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington once more. He referred to another basic principle that the Conservative party should follow—that we should be seeking to conserve what is best in British practice and tradition, and that means the English and Welsh Sunday, and possibly the Scottish Sunday as well.
  The Government argue that Sunday will not become like any other day of the week. I cannot accept that, and I am certainly not prepared to take the risk. All the evidence shows that it will very likely become like every other day of the week because the big stores will open. A sufficient number of big stores have clearly stated that they
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  want to open. The ones that would not open by choice have admitted that they would probably be compelled to do so in order to avoid loss of market share. It is admitted by those who have surveyed the subject that there would be no economic benefit. Indeed, costs would rise, and therefore prices. Overall, there would be no employment gain. There would possibly even be some loss of jobs. I was particularly attracted by the picture which I think the John Lewis Partnership painted, presumably in its house gazette. Retailers were compared with the crowd at a football match. When one person stands up to get a better view and the view of others is obstructed, so all the rest stand up and nobody is better off. That is what would happen with Sunday trading.
  I do not believe that people want the high street shops to open on a Sunday. Certainly my post bag tells me that they do not. Of course, there are people who want a particular shop to open on Sunday—the one at which they like to shop. One could get petitions by the thousand in such cases. That is where I think the petition of 1·4 million signatures, referred to by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, came from. If I were to put a petition in pubs and clubs and said that the Government were seeking to ban the sale of beer, I would get not thousands, but hundreds of thousands of signatures. That is what has happened in this case.
  We must have regard to the shop worker. There has to be a balance between consumers and shop workers in this matter. We would do the British people a great disservice if we knowingly passed legislation which significantly increased the number of those who work, particularly those who were obliged to work, as they would be in the larger stores, on a Sunday. We must bear that principle in mind if and when we come to amend the Bill.
  There is no time to go into all the arguments for the various amendments, but if we can distinguish between the small and the big shop—the small shop is by definition usually a family shop or a shop where those who work are self-employed—if we can deregulate the small shop and then seek to restrict the trading of the big stores, possibly to Sunday afternoons, we shall prevent the high street opening up, as I believe it would otherwise be bound to do.
  That is where my case rests. We all have our own views about the special character of Sunday. We might define it differently. It is something which perhaps is personal to each of us. It goes much beyond the question of religious worship, although that is very important. For most people it is a family day. It is a day for rest and recreation. As somebody put it to me only this morning, everyone needs a break from work or the weekday routine, and we must not prejudice that state of affairs. Therefore, much as I regret it, I have no alternative but to oppose the principle of the Bill, with all the risk inherent in it, and vote against the Government tonight.
  7.14 pm
  Mr. Austin Mitchell: The Bill presents a difficult decision for hon. Members on both sides of the House. What the Government are trying to do is basically right in the sense that they seek to liberalise shopping hours and to allow shops to conform more to what the public wish and demand, making things freer and more flexible. That is a goal that we should accept and further. The problem is that the Government have gone

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  about it in what can only be described as a wrong-headed fashion, which makes it difficult to support a principle which in itself is right.
  Whatever one's belief in the basic principle, the way in which the Government have gone about implementing it makes it extremely difficult to support. I support the principle of deregulation. At present the law — as has been argued so many times and it is pointless to repeat all the illustrations—is unenforceable. It is a patchwork of enforcement and non-enforcement, of the enforceable and unenforceable, which brings the law into disrepute. It is better that such a law should be taken off the statute book and revised and reformed. Once that process is embarked on, I can see no possible stopping place between the present law and the total liberalisation which is proposed. I can see no common ground on which people can rally. There is no stopping point at which people can say that they need go no further towards liberalisation.
  Are we to say that shops above a certain size should remain closed and that smaller shops shall be open? If so, there will be all the problems of measuring up. Shall we say that certain types of shops—garden centres and do-it-yourself shops—for which there is an obvious popular demand, shall he open and others not? Much shopping today is multi-purpose. Many difficulties will be produced. Shall we have a local option which will make the patchwork quilt more patchwork and less quilted and comfortable? I see no stopping point and so it is better to opt for deregulation, which takes the hands of hon. Members off the wheel. It takes the decision away from us. Indeed, the decision does not belong to us. It belongs to the people. They have to decide whether they want to shop on Sunday and, if so, the facilities will be open. It is their decision; it is not for us to enforce our framework on them. If people do not want shops to be open they will not be open. They will he regulated in that way by the market.
  We shall have a situation such as that which exists in Scotland. That is the situation that will prevail in parts of Britain such as Grimsby, which is the part in which I am interested. There would not be a strong demand there for shops to open on Sunday and I do not anticipate that shops would open on any scale on Sunday. In London and in the major conurbations, it is probably a different matter. There there is a tourist demand and other social demands. But for most of Britain the situation in Scotland would prevail. If we allow people to decide in that way, all the fears about Sunday trading would prove false. This is a matter of discretionary spending — whether to spend on restaurants, holidays or shopping. More shopping opportunities would mean more trade and so more jobs.
  I can accept so much of the argument. I want to keep the character of Sunday special but we do not keep it special by enforcing its special character by legislation. It can be special only if the people want it to be special and that means giving them the opportunity to decide what they want to do on Sunday and whether they want to shop. That is sensible and that is what I think the public want.
  All the opinion polls show that there is a majority preference for Sunday trading and for longer opening hours. That is not a burning preference. It is not the kind of passionate preference that would cause people to rush to the shops to break down the windows to try to get in if the shops are shut. But there is a broadly diffused feeling that the law is anomalous and wrong and that shops should be open if people want them to be open. If the Bill
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  responded to that popular demand it would be sensible. However, it is upsetting for someone holding that view to find that the Government have gone further than to assert that clear, demonstrable and defensible principle. The Government put the principle itself in danger by dealing also with hours and conditions for shop workers.
  In any society the Government have a responsibility to protect the pay, conditions, standard of life and the role of the vulnerable. That is the Government's social responsibility. It cannot be denied that shop workers are vulnerable. They are underpaid, overworked and badly treated. They have no means of fighting back. Only a few are unionised. Only about one eighth of shop workers are in a union. They cannot protect themselves. Many of them are women, or young workers, and are very vulnerable. It is morally offensive for the Government to do down that vulnerable group in the way which the Bill proposes.
  I cannot understand how any Government with a conscience can propose this Bill to deal with deregulation, which is sensible, and at the same time introduce a Wages Bill to undermine the wages councils, which are vital to the protection of that vulnerable sector. The Government are removing the powers of the wages councils as they affect those under the age of 21. The councils' powers in respect of the rates and wages for those over 21 will also be weakened. It is unacceptable for the Government to do that at the same time as introducing this Bill.
  The Government plan to remove the protection contained in the 1950 legislation. That compounds the offences in the Wages Bill and does down the workers instead of freeing the shoppers. We accept that shoppers should be freed, but not at the expense of the workers. The Government have made a basic mistake.
  The Bill also deals with conscience and with whether people should be forced to work on Sunday. I do not want anybody who does not want to work on Sunday for whatever reason—conscience, convenience or for any other reason — to have to work on Sunday. That protection should be extended. That right should not be signed away. The right should apply to all workers, present and to come.
  The Bill deals with three issues, one of which I welcome and two of which I oppose. That is the dilemma. The Government have 33 marks out of a 100 and in any system that means failure. It would be more sensible, logical and reasonable to allow the House to vote on the principle of deregulation. I was one of three Opposition Members who voted for the Auld report. On that basis I would have voted for this Bill on the ground that other parts could be attended to in Committee. I hoped that a sensible Committee would change the Bill to provide protection for the workers. I have been deprived of that opportunity by inept Government tactics.
  The Prime Minister's maxim is never to rest content with the plaudits of free men if she can achieve more by coercion. That is what she is doing. A three-line Whip is wrong and offensive. It changes the ball game and puts those with religious scruples in the invidious position of having to choose between eternal damnation and the wrath of the Prime Minister. There is no doubt about the lesser penalty — eternal damnation. That is probably particularly true for the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels) who attacks the Bill but endorses Samantha Fox in The Sun.
  The three-line Whip makes the Bill a party matter when it should not be. Deregulation is basically right but the

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  Government are going about it in a ham-fisted fashion which makes the Bill difficult to support. I cannot now support the Bill and I shall abstain.
  7.25 pm
  Mr. Charles Morrison: The speech by the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) was refreshing, but I was disappointed with his last sentence.
  I accept that the problems of shop workers are special, but I do not understand how their problems, although different, are more special than the problems experienced by hotel workers, firemen, television workers or many others who work on Sunday.
  After all the fire and fury about the Bill, and in spite of appreciating that it is always possible to make mountains out of molehill — today's debate is a fair demonstration of that — I believe that the Bill is unimportant. It does not initiate social change, but ensures that the law is brought up to date to accord with the social change that has already occurred.
  I do not believe that the Bill will have a great effect. It will not lead to mass Sunday opening. I am sceptical about some of the claims about its leading to more or less employment. If the Bill becomes law, Sunday will still remain special.
  Compared with the great issues of the day, such as unemployment, East-West relations and the Labour party's expenditure programme, the Bill is something of a mouse. However, because it is concerned with Sunday, it touches the sensitivities and emotions of many people.
  I feel that I have been here before, because way back in 1967 I served on the Committee examining the Sunday Entertainments Bill, introduced by that much respected and popular Labour Member, Will Hamling. That Bill must have been the worst named Bill introduced in the House. It had no hope. It was named the Sunday Entertainments Bill, not the "Sunday Entertainment Bill". It was given a Second Reading, but after 54 hours in Committee it died. The Bill's objective was to allow professional sport, for which entry was charged, to take place legally on a Sunday. The Bill was killed.
  The spirit, and often the letter, of the law is now totally disregarded. The Wimbledon tennis finals take place on a Sunday, as do the Open golf championships, the last day of the Badminton three-day event and the motor racing grand prix. Each of those events is accompanied by shop opening.
  I favour sport on Sunday because it provides the opportunity for family outings. The only sport that does not take place on a Sunday is horse racing. I am not against that, but that sport is constrained by the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963, which insists that there shall be no cash betting on Sunday. Again there is a contradiction, because one can go into a casino on a Sunday, into amusement arcades or even place a credit telephone bet on Sunday on racing in Ireland, France or Germany. It seems to me that in due course sport, including racing, will be another area for action.
  It could be argued that as the law applying to sport and shops is being broken without problems now, why change it? The owner of one village shop said to me the other day that the law had been broken for 13 years. We are constantly reminded that local authorities continue to turn a blind eye to the law. However, my right hon. and hon.
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  Friends and I are Conservatives, and we believe in the rule of law. If we acquiesce to the law being flouted in one sphere, it is difficult for us to claim consistently that it should not be flouted in other spheres. When a law is flouted and no effort is made to uphold it, not only that law but all laws are brought into disrepute. That is the strongest reason for saying that the law must be changed.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) said, most people agree that the law should at least be amended to clear up anomalies. As we know, the Auld committee and the Government say that that cannot be done, and I agree. The Home Secretary has said that we should not replace an old muddle with a new muddle. The Committee stage is when that opinion can be tested and attempts made to insert realistic amendments. Thus, the Bill must be given a Second Reading. If not, the law must be applied as it is, and that is the third and final alternative open to us.
  All I can say about that is that I should not like to be a Member of Parliament who voted against the Bill on the Second Reading and was then morally bound to go back to the constituency and draw the attention of the local authority to current breaches of the law. Apart from personal political considerations, it could be a full-time job catching up with all the law breakers. Therefore, I support the Government and trust that the Bill will become law.
  7.32 pm
  Mr. David Young: Like many of my colleagues, I have here a petition covering many churches in my area, expressing their concern about the nature and scope of this Bill. They are concerned that it is not aiming to regularise the anomalies of Sunday trading but is bowing to the pressure of a few large influential retailers to change not only the character of Sunday but basically to attack small retailers. I come from a family that earned its living in a small shop, and small business men of that type will go to the wall as a result of this Bill, which will not increase trade but will simply mean a redistribution of trade.
  Does the Conservative party, which supports this Bill, want to support large or small business men only? The president of the Federation of Meat Trades said today that, if carried, the Bill will be a disaster for small business men, who will be squeezed out of business by large multiples. Let us make no mistake. If trade is redistributed, what happens in effect is that the person who does not want to open is forced to open, not to increase trade but to maintain the level of existing trade. I find that morally indefensible from the point of view of commercial let alone religious ethics. Although my father was religious, he was forced to reduce his churchgoing and to alter his family life in order to work seven days a week. Many people are in that position today.
  The Bill will not even result in increased employment. Rather, employment opportunities will be transferred from the staff who tend to be permanent and experienced to part-time people who will work for knockdown wages. I cannot possibly understand how such moves are justified. There is deep concern about this matter on political and religious grounds. Many religious people do not want to impose their convictions and ethics on the rest of the community, but they believe that the Bill is forcing on them the ethics of the rest of the community. That is wrong. I should have thought that a party that stands for Victorian values, like

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  the Tories, would recognise the family as the basis of moral values in this society. Certainly, the Bill affects the family values of those who work in the retailing trade.
  I am concerned about the attitude adopted by many Conservative Ministers. I have listened to the attacks made on bishops, almost with the vehemence of attacks made on the Labour party. I used to believe that the Church of England—and I am a Church of Scotland man—was the Tory party at prayer. I am sure many of them are still at prayer, but I am not sure to which deity they are praying. I believe that an important principle is at stake—the principle of a Member's conscience. It is entirely wrong to implement a three-line Whip on issues such as this that have social and religious implications. It is really abrogating responsibility to say that Members of Parliament must abide by a three-line Whip on the Second Reading, but that a certain laxity will be introduced after that. We must realise that if the Second Reading is carried, the Bill, with all its imperfections, will go through in a form that will in no way remedy the existing anomalies in the law that it could be argued should be remedied.
  I believe that the Prime Minister is putting pressure on her party to make this a party issue. I do not denigrate the Prime Minister; I respect her strength of character. I have even said that I believe she is a creation of the Almighty —to test our belief in Him. The fact remains that this issue should never have gone to a three-line Whip. This evening, not only will we see the matter decided on party divisions but we will also see Members having to choose between sincere personal and religious convictions and their party. On an issue such as this, that situation serves neither the function of the House nor the function of the quality of the laws that we should be passing.
  7.39 pm
  Sir Bernard Braine: I warmly echo the closing words of the hon. Member for Bolton, South-East (Mr. Young).
  That the present law on Sunday trading is unsatisfactory, none of us can deny. That anomalies abound is self-evident. That local authorities are reluctant to enforce the present law is, alas, only too true. So what do the Government propose? To deal with what is still a relatively small nuisance, they set about creating a larger one, with no clear idea where it will lead us. When we demur, they brush aside our anxiety by telling us that total deregulation will not change the character of our traditional Sunday. How do they know? When arguing that deregulation will not destroy Sunday as a special day, they give the example of Scotland. They do not tell us that the Auld committee took no evidence from Scotland or that it admitted that restrictions in England and Wales and the strong tradition of Sunday closing have kept opening in Scotland at a relatively low level.
  However, we now have more relevant evidence about what is likely to happen in England and Wales. I refer to a survey of the trend in shop opening on Good Fridays, which was carried out late last year by the Jubilee Centre in 10 towns in England and Wales. It showed that, in the decade from 1976 to 1985, the percentage of shops opening on Good Friday had doubled, and last year 40 per cent. of all shops opened. This steadily rising trend of opening on Good Friday is what many of us believe will happen on Sundays. Moreover, what has taken years to happen on Good Friday is likely to happen much more quickly on Sundays, with high street competition being
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  fiercer now than ever before. One can only conclude that, whether it takes six months or six years, the Bill must lead to full-scale business activity on Sunday.
  There is more to it than that. The Bill is not about allowing a few corner shops to open on Sunday if they choose. It is about allowing every high street in the land to become as busy on Sunday as on every other day of the week, if the big retail consortia choose. That is the point that we want to bring home to Ministers. Basically, the Bill is about market shares. It is not about freedom, as some claim, as there is no clamour from the constituencies for it. It is about destroying Sunday as a day set apart for centuries as one of rest, relaxation, recreation and family togetherness.
  Mr. Fairbairn: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Sir Bernard Braine: No. I am subject to the ten minute rule, and I must have regard to other hon. Members. Besides, I am talking about conditions in England and Wales.
  The Bill has been designed to satisfy the greed of one section of business. Even putting aside the argument that Sunday is the only day of the week set aside for health and corporate worship—
  Mr. Fairbairn: Rubbish.
  Sir Bernard Braine: It may be rubbish to my hon. and learned Friend, but it is not in England and Wales. It must be clear by now that the overwhelming majority of Christians in England and Wales, and, I believe, in Scotland too, oppose the Bill. Moreover, there has always been good social sense in having one day set apart from the rest which is quieter and more relaxed—never more so, I suggest, than today, when millions of married women are at work during the week and many husbands are on shift work. Sunday is the only day when such parents can come together and be with their children. Not a day passes without the press and media reminding us that family life is under serious threat.
  That being so, when we have a Bill which is likely to affect family life in a fundamental way, we can only presume that there are compelling reasons for it. What are they? Are the public clamouring for it? Are our town halls and constituency offices besieged by angry mobs demanding Sunday opening? Are shop workers petitioning Parliament to be allowed to work on Sundays as well? Not at all. The recent Harris poll showed that over two thirds of the public say that they are not inconvenienced by most shops being closed on Sunday. Five per cent. said that they were seriously inconvenienced. Perhaps we can describe the Bill as one for 5 per cent. of the public.
  Do retailers want it? The overwhelming majority of small traders most certainly do not, as has been made crystal clear by the National Chamber of Trade. Many big retail concerns—household names such as Marks and Spencer, the John Lewis Partnership, Boots the Chemist, Dewhurst, and Selfridges — utterly oppose Sunday trading.
  Mr. Sheerman: And the Co-operative Union.
  Sir Bernard Braine: Indeed. True, the Open Shop Group wants Sunday trading and has spent a lot of money telling us so, but that vested interest accounts for less than 10 per cent. of retail turnover. Perhaps, then, we can describe the Bill as one for 10 per cent. of the retail trade.

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  How are we to interpret the Government's attitude? Is it that although they know there is no great clamour for the Bill, as the Auld committee admitted, they feel nevertheless that there is an economic case for it? Perhaps they feel that once market forces are free to operate on Sundays the advantage to all will soon become apparent. Alas, they cannot say that, because the Auld committee was told by the Institute of Fiscal Studies that, in the long run, about 20,000 jobs would be lost. Some firms will open on Sunday. It has been made plain to me that some firms will feel obliged to open on Sunday in order to retain market share. As their overall turnover is not expected to increase, part-time workers will most certainly be taken on on Sundays, but at the expense of weekday workers, who will be sacked. Like other hon. Members, I have that in writing. It is no secret that seven-day trading will cost more than six-day trading. Who will bear the cost? Perhaps when the Minister replies he will answer that. Either consumers will pay higher prices, or retailers and shareholders will see their profits squeezed. It is one or the other.
  If, then, we are warned in advance that there is no economic case for the Bill, there should be no question of our voting for it, hoping for some small improvement in Committee or on Report. Who do the Government think they are kidding?
  Perhaps I might summarise the reasons for rejecting the Bill. The Government have no mandate whatever—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] — to change the character of the traditional Sunday. The Bill is not before us to fulfil a solemn pledge to the nation. It did not figure in any election manifesto. It was not an issue that was placed squarely before the electorate at the last general election. The Bill is not brought before us, like others, as a welcome measure for strengthening the economy and increasing the number of real jobs. On the contrary, it can have only a marginal effect on trade, it may well increase prices, and, while offering some extra part-time employment, it will reduce the number of ordinary weekday jobs.
  The Bill is not brought before us as a liberating measure, as some claim, which will encourage small businesses, because it will manifestly force many to close, as the National Chamber of Trade has repeatedly predicted. In truth, the Bill is a surrender to certain large retail concerns which will weep no tears if all the small traders are put out of business, because the Bill gives them the opportunity to grab a larger share from others in the retail trade.
  All those are reasons enough to reject the Bill, but there is another and overwhelming reason why the House—especially my right hon. and hon. Friends — should throw it out. To Tories at least, the nation is composed not only of the living but of the dead and the still unborn.
  Mr. Fairbairn: And of the Scots.
  Sir Bernard Braine: We who are privileged to sit here have a responsibility to preserve the best of the traditions handed down to us from our predecessors and to cherish them for future generations. We are never more than trustees for posterity. Once the special character of Sunday has been destroyed, it cannot be recreated. It will have
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  gone for ever. No British Government should embark on such a course, least of all this one, who at the last election said:
  "How to defend Britain's traditional liberties and distinctive way of life is the most vital decision that faces the people at this election."
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): Order. The right hon. Member is exceeding his time.
  Sir Bernard Braine: I am moving rapidly to my conclusion.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. In fairness to the House, the right hon. Member must keep within the time limit.
  Sir Bernard Braine: I cannot find it in my heart to support the Bill in the Lobby. We are on a slippery slope.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. Member has made his final remarks.
  7.50 pm
  Mr. Ray Powell: I should like to compliment the right hon. Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine) on his excellent speech, despite the comments about the Scots. As a fellow Celt, I enjoyed his speech.
  I support the amendment in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends. I am grateful to Mr. Speaker for his understanding in accepting the arguments for calling the amendment.
  The Home Secretary said that the Government will not apply the guillotine. That was confirmed by the tapes which I recently read in the Corridor. On that basis, we all look forward to the Committee stage. Three of my colleagues who want to sit on the Committee can speak for three hours without notes and another three hon. Members who would like to sit on the Committee can speak for three hours without a note or without drawing breath. We therefore look forward to the Committee stage. I do not know when the Government intend placing the Bill on the statute book, but I think that, unless there is a guillotine, it will be a long way in the future.
  I declare an interest as the sponsored Member of Parliament for the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. I pay tribute to the Deputy General Secretary, Mr. John Flood, for his work in the campaign against the Bill and similar measures. I speak for the millions of people, especially the 2·2 million employed in the retail commercial sector. The Bill proposes a free-for-all in the retail commercial sector. The legislation has increasingly been described by many informed people as inconceivable and totally unjustified and legislation that will make for the Government more political enemies than friends. The Bill is selective in its approach to the problems facing the retail industry.
  In tracing the historic background to the Shops Act 1950, we can appreciate the problems and difficulties that the reformers had to face and try to overcome. There is a need for reform of that legislation, for anomalies to be sorted out and for constant and continued consideration as times and attitudes change. Most hon. Members will readily accept that and eagerly respond by introducing such legislation.
  The House will not agree with the bullying tactics of a Government with such a large majority forcing a Second Reading through on a three-line Whip, "strictly enforced" by the Government Whips' Office. The Conservative party was warned by the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire,

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  South-East (Mr.Pym) when he left the Cabinet and by the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), with proof, of the hard, uncompromising, abrasive and thug-like tactics of the lion Lady but, on this Bill, I believe that she has completely lost her ball bearings.
  I point out to Conservative Members that, whatever the tactics of persuasion to make them vote for the Second Reading, and whatever the pressure, such as loss of parliamentary office, however junior or senior, their opposition to date is recognised, appreciated and acclaimed by millions as a move to persuade the Government that we need to preserve something in the 1980s to take us through to the next century. We need Sunday for our traditional family talks, meetings and get-togethers. It is a time when the bustle of everyday life is partly stopped for 24 hours. It gives a little respite for the six days past or the six days to follow. Once that is taken away, life as we have known it will soon become the hustle and bustle of endless weeks, woven into a pattern that we cannot even visualise or truly appreciate as we consider the serious implications.
  Why is there a need to introduce the Shops Bill? Was there a manifesto commitment by the Tory party in the 1979 or 1983 elections? Has the electorate given the Government a mandate? If not, what moral or Government emergency compels the Government to introduce the Bill without the country's consent? Is it to reward the Tories' main financial backers who have a direct or indirect interest in the Bill? Is it to reward the campaigners for setting the people free to decide whether they want to shop on Sunday, whether they want to open their shops on Sunday or whether they want to work on Sunday? Is that the "setting the people free" approach? It is ironic that, on Second Reading of such a major piece of legislation to free the people from the bondage of the Shops Act 1950, the Government have the effrontery to ignore the requests and pleas of more than 100 of their Members for a free vote on a matter of conscience and blatantly and hypocritically to impose a three-line Whip with useless, puerile promises of a free vote later.
  The Home Secretary talked about the Government's open mind. If the Government are so open-minded on this legislation, why have they not allowed a free vote, as requested by hon. Members on both sides of the House? If this legislation is popular capitalism, why is it so unpopular with millions of people? The House and I have been presented with many petitions since the Bill was introduced. Numerous petitions are still being handed in. It is passing strange, to say the least, that the Government can conjure up a figure now but, only a few weeks ago, when the Home Secretary was asked how many letters of protest on the Bill he had received, he said that there were 310 letters in support and 37,000 against. Yet today he talks about the number being fairly even.
  I shall now deal briefly with the suggested reasons why the Government are introducing the Bill. They suggest that conflicting interests make it difficult for general agreement on legislative compromises, so they are compelled to abandon all mediation on the pretext that it is too difficult and would mean surrendering the function of Government. Surely the function of Government is to legislate on a programme presented to the people and for which they have a mandate, not on the whim of the Prime Minister, who dreamt this one up when she dropped off to sleep while writing the Queen's Speech after returning from the Tory party conference last October. The House will fully
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  appreciate that she must have had a hard time then, and that there are more hard weeks ahead at Tory party conferences, especially after last Thursday's magnificent result for Labour achieved by my new hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Raynsford). In all probability more will be said about that result another time.
  The Prime Minister's dream about the Shops Bill resulted in her including one sentence as an afterthought at the end of the Queen's Speech. It read:
  "A Bill will be introduced to remove statutory restrictions on shop opening hours".—[Official Report, 6 November 1985; Vol. 86, c. 5.]
  That sentence, produced without a mandate or full discussions with Tory colleagues in either House, resulted in the Bill. [Interruption.] I am being told that I have had my 10 minutes. I hope that the House will support the amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock), and vote against the motion.
  8.1 pm
  Viscount Cranborne: It is interesting for me to follow the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) who is clearly one of the paternalists of the Welsh Labour party.
  Before I embark on my defence of the Bill, I should like to declare an interest. I have a share in a number of shops, including gardening centres, which already open on Sundays. I wonder whether I am in breach of the law. I should appreciate it if the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) could tell me whether he would enforce the law so rigorously that I would be inspected, in the unlikely event of the Labour party being returned to power at the general election.
  I have been impressed by the references to the enormous number of people who already work on Sunday. A great many work in my constituency, which subsists to a substantial extent, although by no means overwhelmingly, on the tourist trade, especially hotels, and the beauties of the Dorset countryside. It is curious that people shop and enjoy themselves with their families, not only in do-it-yourself and tourist shops, but—
  "Tell it not in Gath"—
  in the cathedrals of the west country. They can buy their artefacts on Sundays, not only up and down the esplanade at Weymouth but in the Gothic towers and shady nooks of the cathedrals—indeed, in the ambulatories of our ancient cathedrals.
  It is odd that the bishops of the Church of England should advocate that W.H. Smith should not open on Sundays while they are happy to sell guidebooks and many other souvenirs on Sundays to cover their substantial expenses. It is perhaps a little pharisaical for them to say that they should be allowed to do something which the high street shop should not.
  All hon. Members know that the law is an ass, and as soon as it is universally recognised to be such it brings the rest of the law into disrepute, as well as the law which is demonstrably an ass. Therefore, a Government who attempt to reform the law are surely to be commended for trying to bring life into the modern world so eloquently described by my hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan). We know, particularly from my hon. Friend's splendid description, how the world has changed. People go out in their cars on Sundays. It is curious to assume that a tradition, which we learnt on further

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  inspection was started as an experiment only 50 years ago, can become the law of the Medes and Persians and be defended to the death by the paternalists in the Labour party. It is curious how soon traditions in a traditional country come to be established.
  We are living in the reign of Queen Elizabeth II, not Queen Elizabeth I.
  Mr. Foulkes: Not in Scotland.
  Viscount Cranborne: I bow to the hon. Gentleman's superior knowledge. In England and Wales we are in the reign of Queen Elizabeth II. [Interruption.] Although I normally love the interventions of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen), I have only 10 minutes. If he will keep quiet, I can get on with my speech.
  We are living in the world of Queen Elizabeth II, not Queen Elizabeth I of England. Even in the world of Queen Elizabeth I of England, laws were passed to compel people to go to church, not to forbid them to trade on Sunday. That was a political decision, with which I am sure Labour Members would disagree profoundly. The political decisions and puritanism that we have seen exhibited with such eloquence by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine), among others, came in 100 years later with the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell. We know what happened to those sentiments after 10 years.
  This legislation represents liberalisation. It will allow people to do what they want. It comes ill from canting bishops to tell us what we should do.
  I close by reminding the House of a story which hon. Members may find as deeply affecting as I did. Bishop Porteous of London was described in the memoirs of Captain Gronow in volume 2. In 1825 he heard that King George IV held a parade of the Household troops on a Sunday on Horseguards Parade. He hastened from Fulham palace to remonstrate with the King at Carlton house. Bishop Porteous, unlike some members of Fulham today, was a Tory. He told the King that he should not hold a parade of his troops on a Sunday. King George IV sent him away with a flea in his ear. I must tell hon. Members, particularly those who have quoted the views of church leaders with such relish, that as soon as the bishop returned home he was rewarded for his pains by being struck down dead.
  The Bill remedies an absurdity, and I commend it and the courage of my right hon. and hon. Friends in introducing it to the House. We can look forward to an age which is not dominated by a law which caters only for the sort of spirit which the Labour party introduced for the first time in its paternalistic legislation of 1945, and which this Government have done so much to repeal.
  8.10 pm
  Mr. Roy Hughes: Last Friday at Newport civic centre I was handed a petition containing hundreds of signatures. It had been signed in chapels and churches throughout the constituency and the signatories were opposed to Sunday trading. Before that I had received several hundred letters and a number of smaller petitions expressing opposition to the Bill. I did not need any prompting from my constituents on this issue, because I had made up my mind about it long ago.
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  The Government have introduced the Bill despite the warnings which they have been given, and they have done so by stealth. First, they smuggled it into the House of Lords. Perhaps the worst crime of all was to impose a three-line Whip on Second Reading, when the issue of principle will be decided. I know that many Conservative Members are battling with their consciences, and I hope that they will heed the words of their hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook), and stick to their guns and oppose the Bill. The Labour party has always shown a great deal of tolerance on issues of principle, and it is my belief that the Government will live to regret their intolerance on such a sensitive issue.
  I oppose the Bill on the grounds of religion, social considerations and trade unionism. When I say "religion", I am not being sanctimonious. I have not seen any blinding light recently, but I am conscious of the fact that Britain has a Christian heritage. We have all been brought up in the belief that Sunday is at least different from the other days of the week. Apart from any moral considerations, we all benefit from the fact that Sunday is different from the rest of the week, in that it is a day of rest. That is especially beneficial when we bear in mind the pressure of modern living.
  In our society there is an insatiable demand for consumer goods. Advertising ensures that that demand continues. That is what the capitalist ethos is essentially about. It is characterised by the slang expression, "Keeping up with the Jones's". In other words, if one family has a video system, the family next door will very soon want one as well. The cost of living being what it is, and with mortgage repayments and other commitments, the standard of living that is desired can often be obtained only by the wife going out to work. I have no wish to enter into any argument about the rights and wrongs of that issue. It is a matter for the individual to decide upon, and circumstances will play a part in his or her decision. However, we have a serious crime rate and delinquency is prevalent among our youngsters. There is drug taking and glue sniffing.
  If Sunday trading becomes the norm, the wife and mother who works part-time in a shop will be expected to work on a Sunday. Sunday has been the one day when the members of a family can get together, with the mother perhaps preparing the Sunday lunch. It is my firm conviction that the loss of the family Sunday will be highly detrimental to our society.
  Throughout my working life I have been a trade unionist and a firm believer in trade union principles. Many shop workers have to work on Saturday, and they certainly do not wish to work on Sunday as well. Lorry drivers will be expected also to work on Sundays, as shop deliveries will be necessary.
  Mr. James Couchman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Hughes: No, I shall not give way.
  There will be parking problems and more police officers will be required to be on duty. The principle of double time for working on Sunday will soon be swept aside as Sunday becomes just another working day. Sunday trading will lead to part-time jobs of four, eight or 16 hours, perhaps, with no holiday rights, pension rights, sickness rights or national insurance contributions. It will lead to the exploitation of young people despite the

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  safeguards that are contained in the Bill. It will lead also to redundancy for many older and experienced shop workers.
  I recognise that the law needs tidying up. However, nothing more drastic than that need be done. I would not complain if small food shops were allowed to open until midday on Sunday. I recognise that there is a need to buy newspapers on a Sunday. The public should be allowed to visit garden centres and make purchases; why not? I agree that minor modifications of that sort should be made to the present law. But I do not want to walk along the main street of Newport on a Sunday and see all the main chain stores open and all the hustle and bustle that that involves. That would be a marked infringement of our traditional Sunday, from which we have all benefited.
  Sunday trading will do harm in a social sense. It will increase the crime rate and further erode family life. It will lead to a deterioration in working conditions and the more marked exploitation of labour in the retail trade, and wages and conditions in that trade are low enough at present. For all these reasons, I shall vote against the Bill's Second Reading. I do not need any three-line Whip to tell me which Lobby to enter.
  8.17 pm
  Sir Raymond Gower: It is recognised on both sides of the House that there are some serious and quite considerable anomalies in the current law on Sunday trading. Many of us, however, do not feel that complete deregulation is an acceptable solution. The only thing that commends complete deregulation is the fact that it is the easiest solution. I warn my right hon. Friend that easy solutions are not always the best.
  It has been contended that there is disregard of the law as well as anomalies and that the law is difficult to enforce. A survey was recently carried out in 40 towns and it showed that about 93 per cent. of shops are closed on Sundays. It revealed also that only 1·4 per cent. of shops were open illegally. Sunday opening is, therefore, not the enormous problem that some of my hon. Friends and others have suggested. If these figures are only near the facts, it is clear that the problem is capable of being dealt with by reform and not necessarily by complete deregulation.
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State have told us constantly that complete deregulation would not lead to any serious change in the nature of our Sunday. We have been told that repeatedly. They are saying by implication that the position can be acceptable only if deregulation fails. They are saying, in effect, that everything will be all right if deregulation does not go too far. That reveals the nature of their argument. It is clear that they do not know how far it will go.
  Mr. Lyell: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Sir Raymond Gower: No, I shall not give way.
  Many of my right hon. Friends fear that the change brought about by deregulation will be great. It could hopelessly change the nature of Sunday and would be an irreversible step which we should not take. Many of us are saddened by the course that the Government propose to take, but we are not annoyed. We are sad that the Government are determined to press on with the Bill as it stands. The change that is proposed for Sunday trading
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  seems incompatible with the Government's other aims in recent years, most of which have been founded on family life, improvements in the environment, law and order, and encouragement of small business. The Government have stood up for all those things. Family life is bound to be damaged. Many illustrations have been given by speakers from both sides of the House. The change will be damaging to the improvements in the environment. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Macfarlane) explained what will happen in suburbia, with the increased traffic, which is bound to effect a serious and damaging change in many of our towns. We are often told that overcrowding, bad housing and poverty are contributory factors to vandalism and crime. How rarely does anyone say that the decline of religion and church attendance has also been a contributory factor in creating vandalism and crime? Anything that Parliament does to damage Sunday cannot do anything to help the Church's work. It cannot be beneficial. It is bound to be harmful and that is one of he most potent reasons why I cannot support the Bill.
  We have said that we want to help small businesses. I declare a personal interest as a vice-president of the National Chamber of Trade. Nearly all our chambers and nearly all our small members are terribly worried and concerned about the Bill. I shall summarise my objections under three main headings. I hope that I will not be accused of being a narrow Sabbatarian but as a churchgoer I do not want to see our Sundays like other days. Secondly, as vice-president of the National Chamber of Trade I share the fears of our smaller members of the probable consequences of the change on their businesses. By golly, those small shops are already under severe pressure. Thirdly, I do not want employees in the retail sector to he under severe pressure to have to work on Sundays contrary to their religious belief, conscience or even their personal inclination. I am afraid that that will be the case. I regard the protection in the Bill, such as it is, as utterly inadequate. It provides no protection for shopworkers changing jobs. It gives no protection to new entrants into the industry. Are they to be treated differently even if they have Christian conscientious objections? Why should they be treated differently from those already employed in the industry?
  Mr. Roy Hughes: They will not have a job.
  Sir Raymond Gower: Of course they will not. They will be under pressure. Much of that pressure is difficult to avoid if we legislate in this open-handed way. I trust that those of us who take these views will not be regarded as extremists.
  On the Church argument, I share the views based on the Christian doctrine that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. Those views are held by more people in the community than my right hon. and learned Friend suspects, even in this country of many religions or people of no religion. I am satisfied that Sunday has been a boon and a blessing to people of all persuasions and no persuasion. Many have been impressed by the article by Chaim Bermant in today's The Guardian in which, as a Jew, he pays tribute to the British Sunday. He calls it a
  "day out of time, less trammelled, more relaxed, an occasion for rest and recreation."
  That is what the Bill may put in peril. As Mr. Bermant reminds us,
  "Addison put it:
  'Sunday clears away the rust of the whole week."

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  We shall also put that in peril. We put at peril an institution which, despite all its difficulties and imperfections, has been a tremendous advantage to the people of this country. Ministers have cited Scotland, Norway and some of the states of the United States of America. I do not believe that the Auld committee, or Ministers, have looked sufficiently at examples of countries such as France, West Germany and Holland, none of which have complete deregulation.
  Mr. Lyell: What about Spain?
  Sir Raymond Gower: I cannot speak with authority about Spain. I do not think that it has complete deregulation but I might be wrong.
  Like others, I regret the three-line Whip. During my many years in the House I have spoken and voted on many Bills of this kind but they were always private Members' Bills and there was always a free vote because it was a question of conscience. We are told that because this is a Government Bill there must be a three-line Whip. I suggest that that is not the case. When we came to the issue of capital punishment in the Bill dealing with law and order we were given a free vote. Why should we be deprived of a free vote on Sunday trading if we were given one on capital punishment? The Government have been utterly inconsistent in that. They have also been inconsistent in bringing the Bill forward, as many of my hon. Friends have said, utterly without mandate. At no stage during the previous general election were any of us able to say that this was a part of our policy. It was not part of our policy.
  The Bill may have pleased a few. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend knows who it has pleased. I can tell him some who it has not pleased. It has displeased and caused deep anxiety to thousands of churchgoers and fine citizens of this country. It has caused concern among many small shopkeepers and it has caused great worries among many shop workers. How the Government can cause distress and concern to so many people at once I do not know. It could be very injurious politically. I warn the Government and I hope that they will have second thoughts about it.
  8.26 pm
  Mr. George Foulkes: I declare my interest as a Member sponsored by the Co-operative movement, and a Co-operator of long standing.
  I wish to follow on from the points made by the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower) about the Whip. I certainly do not need a Whip to help me to make up my mind on this matter. It is a pity that the Whip is being used on Conservative Members. It was not just on the last occasion, when it was a private Member's Bill, that there was no Whip. On almost 20 previous occasions when this matter has been discussed there has not been a Whip on Conservative Members. Indeed, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department said:
  "There are important considerations and fears about the character of Sunday … That is why the Government adhere to the view which successive Governments have adhered to, that the decision must be for the individual conscience of hon. Members."—[Official Report, 4 February 1983; Vol. 36, c. 557.]
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  What has changed since that declaration? What has changed since the 20 previous occasions? I can only assume that the Prime Minister has made up her mind and all her troops have to fall solidly in line behind her. I am encouraged to hear the declarations that we have heard tonight from Conservative Members and to know that there are significant numbers of them who will not fall in line. I was greatly impressed by the speech of the right hon. Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine). I am sorry that he is not in his place. It was full of passion and rational argument. It was exactly what has made this House what it is today in debate. He was right to say that the Government have submitted to narrow commercial interests and have dressed it up as an issue of great principle.
  Like the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Paymaster General, I smile a little, but for a different reason, when I hear Conservative Members talking about the joy of shopping. Some books begin "The Joy of". I know that the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels) knows about it, because I have seen his comments about page three of The Sun in relation to this issue. Those books are best sellers. The Home Secretary has written a few best sellers, such as "Scotch on the Rocks" and others, but if he wrote a book entitled "The Joy of Shopping" I can guarantee that it would be remaindered within a month.
  We have heard from grandfathers on the Conservative Benches who think that the joy of shopping is taking their grandchildren once a year into Santa's grotto and seeing their eyes light up. That is a myth. That is humbug. It is not the reality of the daily, the weekly, drudge of shopping. I do not look forward to being dragooned by my children on a Sunday, as much as on any other day, into this thing which the grandfathers on Conservative Benches think is a great opportunity.
  On a more serious note, it is no joy for the many families existing on £50 a week to go shopping, with the incessant demands of their children, spurred on by the pressure of advertising. It is no joy for them to go around the shops and know that they cannot afford to buy the things that they see there. We are hearing a myth about the great joy of shopping.
  Mr. Eric Forth: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Foulkes: No, I shall not give way.
  There has been a great deal of pressure on this issue. I am getting a little fed up with the consumer organisations which set themselves up to speak on behalf of the whole population. I received a letter from the National Consumer Council, signed by Mr. Martin Smith, who calls himself the Parliamentary Officer. He has the audacity to write:
  "On behalf of the millions of consumers".
  What right has Mr. Smith to say that he speaks on behalf of millions of consumers? I have discussed the issues with my constituents, and even I cannot purport to speak on behalf of all of them. I get fed up with consumer organisations, which represent the middle-class Habitat shoppers and not the mainstream of people, saying such things.
  I have challenged the Scottish Consumer Council to say who it consulted on this issue—I do not think that it has consulted anyone substantial—and how it decided to support the campaign. The council thinks that it is representing the interests of consumers. It may represent

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  the short-term interests, but the effect of the Bill on prices, British manufacturing and the quality of goods will not be in the long-term interest of the consumer.
  I oppose the Bill. There is no widespread demand for its provisions, as many hon. Members have said. I shall not go into that in more detail and repeat the points that have been made, except to say that when Mr. Auld and his committee considered the matter, they had the benefit of the wisdom of six professional assessors, and four of those assessors opposed the deregulation, and are still against it. They are Lord Gallacher, representing the large traders, Miss Head, representing the small traders, Mr. Thimont from the Churches, and Mr. Flood, representing the shop workers. The committee and the Government paid no attention to the people appointed by the Government to be assessors. They knew what they were talking about, yet their views were ignored by the committee.
  I oppose the Bill because the weight of the representations to the Government is still strongly against it. Reference has been made to the number of letters. I suspect that the Government have whipped up support for the Bill. Even with that whipping up, the figures are still nearly three to one against among people taking the trouble to write letters.
  I should like to refer to Scotland, because such a lot of nonsense has been said about it. If English and Welsh Members want to come into line with Scotland, they should look at the successful changes in the licensing laws. They set a better example for change in England and Wales. I should like to quote from a representation that I received today. I must enunciate the name carefully—it is from the Scottish Association of Master Bakers. The association's representation reminds hon. Members that many bakers
  "will have to work a Saturday night shift to produce goods for sale on the Sunday."
  That is forgotten about. The association goes on to say:
  "It might be said, what interest do Scottish bakers have in Sunday trading in England? The fact is that everyone in Scotland will be strongly affected by the Government's proposal to abolish the Shops Act. Inevitably, many supermarket chains and multiple retailers who are currently not opening in Scotland on Sundays"
  —my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) and I can confirm that—
  "will be forced willy-nilly to reconsider their position if Sunday trading becomes general in England."—
  That is why the legislation affects us, and why the situation will change in Scotland if there is change in England.
  Mr. Forth: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Foulkes: We know that the consequences for the workers are severe. Double time and time and a half will go. A domino effect will result from maintaining a competitive position. More shops which do not want to open on Sunday will be forced to do so. That is the position into which the Co-op might be forced if the measure goes through. Sunday will become, not like any other day, but much more like Saturday, one of the busiest days of the week—
  Sir Fergus Montgomery: What about Scotland?
  Mr. Foulkes: I have dealt with Scotland.
  We are concerned that the turnover will not rise in proportion to the costs, that prices will go up, and that several corner shops will close, particularly small traders. Even the large traders will be forced to close shops which
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  are now marginal. Others will need to work. We shall need more drivers, more policemen to make sure that the law is enforced, more cleaners, more traffic wardens, more trading standards officers, and more local authority employees. There will be pressure for the rates to go up.
  I urge the Paymaster General to consider this. There is an opportunity for sensible compromise. Almost everyone who has spoken wants a sensible compromise. We should look at other countries where the Sunday trading laws are working effectively. We should consider the four options which the Home Secretary described, which everyone realises are a potential for compromise. We should look at ways in which we can do that, because almost all of us recognise that the present state of affairs is anomalous and needs tidying up. Many, if not all, Opposition Members would support tidying up and improvement.
  Above all, we say to the Government that we do not want total deregulation. We do not want this threat to the traditional Sunday in the United Kingdom. The Government should withdraw the Bill and consult all the interests involved. We can wait another year before we consider detailed legislation. Then we can bring in the new proposals after consultation I can say on behalf of the Co-operative movement that we shall support such proposals if they are a sensible compromise.
  8.37 pm
  Mr. George Gardiner: I approach the Bill as one who at least seeks to merit the description of being a Christian, as a periodic church worshipper, and as one who also wants to keep a special character for Sunday. As such, I can say that I have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting the Bill.
  The law is in such an idiotic tangle that sometimes it has been rather difficult to understand the logic of those who oppose the reform that has been introduced. Some, of course, take the straight Sabbatarian position, and for that one must have a good deal of respect. They will not turn on the television or radio on a Sunday; they do not take Sunday newspapers because someone has to be employed to distribute them; they do not buy Monday newspapers because journalists and printers have to work on Sundays to produce them; and they serve themselves on a Sunday with a cold lunch.
  However, surely it is up to each Christian to decide where to draw the line for Sunday observance. As a Christian, I decide for myself. Like the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), I have no wish to shop on a Sunday for provisions or most other things, but as a Christian I do not seek to impose my judgment or decision on that matter on other people.
  I listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for Manchester Gorton, (Mr.Kaufman), who opened for the Opposition. He would not expect me to agree with a great deal of what he said. The right hon. Gentleman gave a moving description of his father, who resolutely refused, in any circumstances, to work on the Jewish Sabbath. One must have great respect for that mixture of conviction, pride and humility. As the right hon. Gentleman was speaking, the thought crossed my mind that Kaufman senior did not need the criminal law of the land to fortify his position.
  Most of the opponents and critics of the Bill, and most of those who have written to us, write from the fear that the special character of Sunday is under threat. I sympathise with that feeling, although I disagree with the

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  conclusion that they have reached. What does the special character of Sunday mean? I was interested in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan), who described the changing nature of the traditional British Sunday. First, Sunday is a day specially set aside for church worship. I should like to see many more citizens attending church regularly—indeed, attending church more often than I do—but that is a matter for the church and its witness. No one could suggest that the reason for the empty pews in many of our churches is that garden centres and do-it-yourself shops are open. In fairness, church men have not so pretended. Most of the vicars from my constituency who have written to me on this subject say that they do not base their objections to the Bill on a fear that it will undermine attendance in their churches. Instead, they cite the rhythm of life—a weekly pattern of life in which people must have some rest. They also cite the strain that would be placed on families if their members, especially mothers, were forced to work on Sundays.
  The rhythm of life is not put in question by the legislation. No one suggests that workers should work for seven days a week, week after week, month after month. There are many examples of workers in other areas of the economy, such as my former profession of journalism, who work a 14-day pattern. Someone who is on duty one weekend would have a long weekend off the next. Many people enjoy such a pattern of work.
  There is also the example of Scotland, where there is a ready flow of volunteers to work in the limited number of shops that are open on Sundays. Many people, including managers, volunteer for duty on Sundays. Only last week I spoke to a woman who managed branches of a multiple store in Aberdeen and Edinburgh. If she was on duty one weekend, she would have a long weekend off the following week. On her posting to London, she was bitterly critical of the fact that, on alternate weekends, she did not have a three-day break, because there is no chance for her to do duty on Sundays.
  As for family strain, there is no evidence that family breakdown is any greater among those employed in electricity generation or in transport who are required to work on Sundays on a rota basis.
  A further special element to the character of Sunday is that it is a day of recreation and has been so for a long time. One cannot see that this will be undermined by the provisions of the Bill. More importantly, the special character of Sunday consists in the fact that it is, in many respects, a special family day. Several hon. Members have acknowledged that. Families choose to do many different things in their time off, such as making certain purchases together.
  There is evidence from garden centres in my constituency that the whole family arrives and the children play on slides in the corner while mother and father work out what will be planted in the garden that year. There is evidence from do-it-yourself stores, where all the family go at a time convenient to all of them to choose the paint and wallpaper for their homes. In furniture stores open on the Sunday, whole families choose their new suite of furniture together. At the seaside, too, we see families enjoying themselves in shops which
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  are open to serve them. I assert that many shops that open on Sundays are already enhancing Sunday as a family day, rather than detracting from it.
  Opinion polls, especially those organised and financed by different sides of the argument, show conflicting evidence of what people want, often depending on how the questions are framed, but the only true way to discover what people want is to give them the chance to choose. I do not believe that more than a handful of our high street shops would open on a Sunday, because there is not and will not be the pressure from the public to warrant it, except perhaps in the weeks immediately before Christmas. Garden centres open because there is a demand for them to do so. Do-it-yourself shops open for the same reason. Out-of-town hypermarkets, which are being developed anyway, will open if they offer a market in circumstances which make them congenial for families to shop together. But there will be no demand for all shops to open, so they will not do so. Sunday will remain a special day because the majority or us want it that way. I believe in the old adage that the customer is always right in these matters.
  The extent of Sunday trading will be determined by what our citizens want. I do not believe that the decision is one for archbishops, or for vocal lobbies, such as the Keep Sunday Special campaign. Nor should the decision be made by us in Parliament. The choice belongs to the people as responsible citizens, and the moral merit of the Bill is that it seeks to give them that choice.
  8.47 pm
  Mrs. Ann Winterton: This has been an interesting debate with robust contributions from hon. Members on both sides of the House and both sides of the argument. A tremendous amount of common ground has been established in that the majority of those speaking have agreed that the present law is in a terrible mess, but the majority also objects to the total deregulation proposed in the Bill. We appreciate that it is a logical course for the Government to take that, if they do not like what is happening, they should completely deregulate, but I do not believe that that view is shared by the majority of people in my constituency or in the country as a whole.
  It is the Government's duty, because they brought the Bill to the House, to come up with an alternative reform which they might wish to make in the future, and I assure them that that would have tremendous support from those who have reservations about total deregulation. It is not for Back-Bench Members to produce reforms, but if the Minister wishes to swap places with me, I should be keen to have a go in his place!
  Many hon. Members have said that there is a tremendous demand to liberalise the Sunday trading laws. They say that because they come from a Whiggish background, not a Conservative background. There is no pressure or great demand from the country as a whole to introduce total deregulation, but there is some demand from a narrow commercial sector—a small percentage of the retail trade which is pressing for a total deregulation because it knows that that would be in its best commercial interests. I do not blame them for that. It is a perfectly normal attitude, but it does not mean that we should fall in with those ideas. Indeed, we should put them completely to one side.
  As many hon. Members have said, in recent years the pattern of Sundays has changed. Many more families now

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  take part in leisure activities. There has also been a great change in the way in which people go about their shopping. In this day and age, with six full days shopping per week and at least one late night, possibly more as a result of the Bill, with flexi-hours and shorter working weeks, I cannot understand why families who want to buy a three-piece suite together cannot do so on a Friday or Saturday or some other day when the husband is at home and can take his wife out. In the small towns in my constituency most shops close early on a Saturday afternoon because everyone has gone home for tea. There is no great demand there for Sunday opening.
  The distortion in trading patterns worries me considerably. About half of all retail trade and two thirds of all food shopping takes place in the big multiple chains, which are often based in city centres and draw trade to those centres. I am worried that total deregulation will draw trade away from the smaller centres and especially from the small independent traders. The chambers of trade in my constituency are absolutely together on this. They believe that it will do irreparable damage in the long term and will put many traders out of business.
  I live in a rural area in which the village shop is extremely important to people who have no transport of their own. They rely on the village shop for their basic needs and if it goes out of business they will be in real difficulty. Elderly people also rely very much on small local shops. If those shops disappear, considerable social benefits will disappear with them.
  Total deregulation will hit the independent trader hardest of all. In a family business members of the family work six full days a week. Sunday is the only day they have off and the only day on which they can catch up with the paperwork and prepare for the visit of the dreaded VAT man. If they have to open seven full days a week to try to maintain their share of the market, their overheads will rise and the family will have no time off at all.
  Most people who work in the retail trade are women and young people. If one such member of the family is absent on a Sunday the whole family is affected. Let us not forget that there has been a great diminution in the standards of our family life and, dare I say it, of our national life. I believe that that has been to the detriment of society as a whole. Let us not do still more damage to the family as the basic unit of society and a great major stabilising factor in society. Sunday is the only day when the family can be together. A day off on Monday or mid-week for people who work in the retail trade cannot compensate because the children will be at school. Sunday is the only day when the whole family can be together.
  I am saddened, too, that a Conservative Government should seek to introduce such an un-Conservative measure which will damage the independent sector. I thought that, as Conservatives, we favoured creating a climate in which small businesses could thrive and prosper. Total deregulation will have exactly the opposite effect. The Government should govern not by logic alone but by a combination of head and heart and, one hopes, reach a common-sense solution at the end of the day.
  This is a Christian country and I am a practising Anglican. I believe that we have a duty to keep Sunday as a special day. In the past, Sunday has been traditionally kept for family life, rest, relaxation and religious worship. We are here to judge the matter in its widest sense, not in
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  the narrow commercial interests of those who support total deregulation, but in the beast interests of our constituents and of the country as a whole. I shall oppose the Bill.
  8.55 pm
  Mr. Tom Arnold: I support the Bill, and I should do so with or without any kind of Whip, because I believe in it. Contrary to the remarks of some of my hon. Friends, many of my constituents — the majority, I believe — support the Bill. Despite the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton), I believe that important issues of freedom and freedom of choice are involved. Those are among the reasons why I and my constituents support the Bill.
  I should like to deal with some of the arguments against the Bill, starting with the argument about the mandate. The Auld committee was set up in August 1983 after the last general election, but I have always believed politics to be a dynamic activity. God forbid that we should be constrained from discussing other issues and putting forward new measures simply on the basis of what was or was not in a previous general election manifesto. If we were constrained solely by the contents of manifestos, I believe that the quality of our political life would suffer and the management of our affairs would be a great deal more complicated.
  The Government were perfectly entitled to set up the Auld committee, to reach a considered view on its findings and to proceed with the introduction of the Bill. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington, South (Mr. Carlisle) spoke of the major difficulties with the present legislation and the fact that the 1950 Act is frequently not enforced because it is not capable of enforcement. I believe that that discovery by the Auld committee lies behind the Government's thinking in introducing the Bill. Those who have spoken against the Bill have argued that the anomalies, confusion and complexity of the present law are manageable and need not concern us unduly. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it, but the Auld committee reached a different conclusion. Paragraph 25 of the report states:
  "Some authorities have adopted a policy of not enforcing the law at all. Many others act only in response to complaints …. Very few local authorities prosecute as a matter of policy all traders who open outside the permitted hours."
  It also states:
  "Many local authorities are out of sympathy with it. It is being widely disregarded by shopkeepers all over the country, to the evident satisfaction of Sunday shoppers."
  It adds:
  "Even if a local authority does prosecute to conviction it knows that, in many cases, the small fines commonly imposed by magistrates will act as no deterrent at all to further breaches of the law by the shopkeepers concerned. Moreover, the full costs of prosecution will rarely be recovered."
  That has been the experience in my own constituency. Although I have received many representations from members of the clergy and others who are opposed to this legislation, I believe that some of the other representations that I have received should have greater weight, given experience locally in Stockport in Greater Manchester.
  I return to my main theme, that frequently this legislation is not enforced and is incapable of being enforced. I would go further and say that the operation of the Shops Act 1950 is surrounded by a good deal of hypocrisy, evasion and ignorance.

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  Civil obedience, be it to laws, institutions or rulers, is but an outward manifestation of consent and support, and the opinion that must underpin that consent and support. For those of us who believe in upholding the authority of Parliament and our laws, it is not good enough to say that it does not matter whether or not this law is obeyed. After all, we are talking about the criminal law, and there are criminal sanctions for people who break this law. We should bear that in mind. I do not believe that in 1986 it is appropriate for the criminal law to operate in this area, particularly in view of the changes that have taken place in society in recent years.
  I have referred to evasion, and I use the example of my own constituency in Greater Manchester. Some years ago there was an attempt by the local authority to bring pressure to bear, in advance of a prosecution, on a garden centre that had been bold enough to start selling books. The centre quite properly desisted, yet three miles away at Manchester airport one can buy the same books.
  The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) referred earlier to shop workers, but more than 50 per cent. of Manchester international airport is owned by the city of Manchester which is Labour-controlled. Many shop workers work there on a Sunday. Moreover, there are now very few things that one cannot buy at Manchester airport on a Sunday. One can buy men's clothes, women's clothes, food of many descriptions and many other goods and services, ranging from books, publications of all kinds, gramophone records and goodness knows what else—[HON. MEMBERS: "That is irrelevant."] It is not irrelevant, because it underlines yet again the reason why there is so much confusion and dissatisfaction about the Shops Act 1950, which enshrines in law a series of anomalies, some of which I shall refer to later.
  Having said that many local authorities choose deliberately not to prosecute until such time as the pressure becomes unbearable — if, indeed, they choose to prosecute at all — I now come to the question of ignorance. One of the complaints made against the Shops Act 1950—and it is frequently made by the very small traders to whom Labour Members have referred—is that such small traders are unable to discover what exactly they are permitted to sell. When the weights and measures man says, "Perhaps you should not be selling that", they ask, "Will you give me a categorical ruling about whether or not I can sell this range of goods?" Frequently, the answer is, "No. I cannot tell you that. It is up to the court to decide."
  Since the 1950 Act was passed, there have been many changes in retailing and in the definitions of goods, and many small shopkeepers are in genuine difficulty about knowing what they can reasonably sell.
  I conclude by highlighting once again—because it is necessary to do so in a debate of such importance—some of the ridiculous anomalies to which the Auld committee drew attention in its report. It wrote:
  "The anomalies have been widely canvassed. Some of the more bizarre ones in relation to Sunday trading are that it is legal to sell—

  gin, but not dried milk;

  fresh vegetables, but not tinned ones;

  spares for a car or an aircraft, but not shoes;

  a razor blade, if sold for the purpose of cutting corns, but not for shaving;

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  a pornographic magazine, but not a Bible unless the Bible is sold from a bookstall at a designated airport or railway station;

  fish and chips from any take-away food shop except a fish and chip shop, although fish and chip shops are permitted to sell any other form of take-away meal on a Sunday."

  It is nonsense like that, which hon. Members simply touched on as if it were irrelevant, that has infuriated a great many of my constituents, including a number of small traders who have been most unfairly prosecuted for opening on Sundays when all they have done is respond to the needs of their customers, frequently in circumstances where they have been unable to find out whether they would be prosecuted by the local authority. Frequently the local authority is uncertain about how the law would operate if a case were brought to court.
  For all those reasons, I urge support for the Bill and I am pleased to have this opportunity to put on record my views and the views of my constituents, irrespective of what happens at later stages of the Bill.
  9.6 pm
  Sir Peter Mills: I apologise to the House for not being here for the whole debate. That is because of my health problems. I am not able to stand, or even sit, for very long, but because I was not here it does not mean that I am not interested in what is happening. Some of us have always had to work on Sunday. Some years ago I was a dairy farmer and I had to milk 14 times a week. Essential work has to be done. Doctors and nurses, and transport and electricity workers, are necessary to modern life, and their work has to continue.
  The questions before us are: do we want a further extension of many people working on Sunday? Do we want the complete deregulation that the Government are seeking to bring in? I do not, and I do not approve of this legislation. The Government are making a serious mistake. I am also worried about the tactics of the whole thing. They leave me somewhat dismayed and confused. Many of us are not clear why two hours were added to the debate. Obviously, this is a way of seeing that some people do not attend, that they go home. That is unfortunate, especially when the Government are saying that after this Second Reading there can be a free vote. That worries me, and I am fussed about it as well. It seems strange, especially as I understand from the Home Secretary that there will be no guillotine. I assure the Government that many people will speak for many hours about this in Committee and later. The whole thing is muddled and fuddled, and I am dismayed at the way in which it has been brought about.
  Also upsetting to me were the statements made by Ministers before this debate. They seemed adamant about total deregulation, and that was a great pity. Much more could have been done to discuss the matter with those who are opposed to total deregulation, to try to come to some agreement. I would be much happier and would reconsider my actions if the Government made a promise to accept an amendment in Committee that would allow Sunday to be a different day and preserve the traditions of the past. Such a promise has not been given. No hint has been given that the Government would accept such an amendment, and I am disturbed about that.
  I should like to raise three further points about which much has been said. There are economic problems about complete deregulation. As I said when I intervened during

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  the speech of the Home Secretary, there is a problem about small shops and a real fear about their future. If the large superstores and multi-retailers in my area open on Sundays, small shops will rapidly start to disappear. I am backed up in this argument by the chambers of trade, which feel just as strongly as I do, and are opposed to total deregulation.
  The big companies are in favour of deregulation. Only a certain amount of money will be spent each week in our shops, and if the big companies can grab a large share of this money on Sundays that will have an adverse effect on the small shopkeepers. I am not a lawyer, but I know that there are difficulties. However, I cannot believe that we cannot make the necessary adjustments to bring the legislation up to date, make changes and throw out some of the stupid provisions. I am sure that we could do something about this. Although I may be destroying my argument in saying this, there is a case for looking closely and carefully at allowing garden centres to open on Sundays. They ensure much pleasure and enjoyment, and we want Sunday to be a day of rest, relaxation and pleasure for families.
  My second point has also been raised already—the effects of total deregulation on social problems, and in particular on home life. The family is under the most severe attack that it has ever faced, and home life is disintegrating fast. This must not be brushed aside, because the basis of our country's stability is family life. That will be in even more difficulty if we have complete deregulation.
  There is a strong case for one different day—a day of rest and relaxation when the family can at least try to get together. It would be serious if the whole week were merged into a whole working week and one could not look forward to that one day of rest and relaxation. If there is complete deregulation, further social problems will arise.
  It is said that one multiple retailer has stated that it will be employing women just for Sundays. This will surely mean that many homes will not have a mother at home on that day. It could be that the children in those homes will never sit down to have a meal with their parents at home. Such things cannot be brushed aside. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie) is muttering. I am willing to give way to her, because this is a serious matter and we should consider carefully the Bill's effect on home life.
  I make no apology for taking the Christian or religious view on deregulation. This may be a minority view, but it is important. We are supposed to be a Christian country —God help us if we forget that, as we are tending to. I had the privilege of replying to the Queen's Speech, and I mentioned that as a nation and a Parliament we should again acknowledge God in the affairs of our national life. We have gone a long way from that, and it will be of no benefit to the country.
  God has made it clear that we should have one day of rest. The Ten Commandments are not old-fashioned rules that can be thrown away. They are there, not only for a religious purpose, but to ensure a sane, sensible and ordinary life for every one of us, even though we may not be Christians. It is important to have one day of rest, and we should consider that angle carefully.
  The Bill allows workers the opportunity to go to church, but there will be grave problems and dangers for those who wish to do so. Even with Government protection, they will probably be passed over for
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  promotion and find it difficult to carry on if they insist on going to church on Sunday morning. That is what the commandment is all about. Not only should we acknowledge God and his laws, but we should seek for the community this one special day—a day of enjoyment and fun when we can at least pay a lot of attention to our families. Many will probably not accept what I am going to say, but a nation that ignores God and his commandments is bound to fail, and fail miserably. I must give that warning.
  All in all, I shall not be able to support my Government tonight. I am usually a loyal person, but on this issue I cannot support my Government. A mistake is being made. In my constituency, and others in the south and west where people feel strongly about this, the Bill will be highly detrimental to the Conservative party at the next election.
  9.15 pm
  Mrs. Marion Roe (Broxbourne): I support the Bill, representing as I do a horticultural area which would benefit from the legalised status of Sunday trading. My constituency contains a large horticulture industry, mainly the glasshouse sector, and important within that sector are garden centre operators and suppliers. The market for the industry is valued at £800 million and consists of 30 million gardeners with varying degrees of enthusiasm.
  Gardening and the use of the garden have become one of the nation's main leisure activities. A consequence of the growth of interest in gardening has been the increasing expectation of the public to regard gardening as it would any other leisure activity and to make purchases during leisure time, especially at weekends.
  The public has always been permitted to purchase plants on Sundays in accordance with the Shops Act 1950, but nurseries which sell pots, ties and stakes are breaking the law. It is virtually impossible to limit sales to plants only, and garden centres openly trade on Sundays across their entire product range. In most cases it is with the knowledge of the local authorities, which recognise that garden centres are meeting a public demand. Indeed, I am sure that it is not unknown for local authority members and Members of the House, by their purchases from garden centres, to encourage illegal Sunday trading.
  Many garden centres are now dependent on Sunday operation for their very existence. A recent survey of 380 members of the Horticultural Trades Association showed that 32 per cent. estimated that they would go out of business altogether if they were forced to close on Sundays, with a consequent loss of employment for 1,347 staff. Even in the case of the 68 per cent. who said that Sunday closing would result only in a scaling down of their businesses, significant loss of earnings would affect a further 1,741 staff. Enforced Sunday closing would result in increased unemployment and a significant reduction in garden retailing facilities for the public.
  It has been claimed that it would be difficult to obtain staff prepared to work on Sundays if general Sunday opening were to be permitted. Quite apart from the overwhelming evidence of industries which currently operate on Sundays—such as transport, catering and public utilities—the majority of garden centre operators have no difficulty in recruiting and retaining staff who are prepared to work on Sundays as part of a roster arrangement. Garden centres which are open on Sundays

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  provide a retail service for which there is patently considerable demand and, furthermore, provide employment which would not otherwise exist.
  Therefore, it is clearly wrong in principle to continue to support a law which operates in favour of some traders in some places selling some goods while the generality of traders are not allowed to do so. It must be to the benefit of the retail trade if trading conditions are created which enable it to compete better in the market place.
  It is accepted that for staple items of food, clothing and furniture, the overall market will not expand significantly as a result of Sunday opening, but that for a host of discretionary items the same restriction of demand will not apply. Greater sales will generate increased employment opportunities, as is demonstrated by garden centres.
  Considerable concern is expressed that the freedom to trade on Sunday would result in a deterioration in the quality of life. That claim is based upon the belief that all retailers will want to open on Sunday. The Scottish experience does not support that view. In practice only shops that find it profitable to open on Sunday will do so.
  Consistent research findings by a number of organisations show that the majority of people are in favour of Sunday opening. Given the high incidence of households in which both partners are wage earners, the availability of shopping facilities on Sunday would certainly enhance the quality of life. The rapidly changing lifestyles over the past decade mean that people's expectations of a family Sunday have altered.
  I regret that many hon. Members are using the Bill to hold forth on the concept of a traditional Sunday, which public evidence shows no longer to exist. Hon. Members on both sides may be fortunate to have spouses who are supportive in family tasks, such as shopping. However, we cannot say that our lifestyles permit us to shop in normal trading hours. Often I and many other hon. Members have been grateful for a shop which opens on Sunday. Can hon. Members honestly declare that they have never assisted in breaking the law in that respect or that they have not been grateful for the ability to do so?
  It is time that we recognised the changes in society that have affected patterns of consumer as well as retailing demands. It is well known, and much argued in another place, that Sunday trading would have an adverse effect on the lives of the woman shop worker and her family, but there is clear evidence from shopkeepers who trade on a Sunday that there is no difficulty in obtaining employees who are willing to work on that day, provided that adequate rostering is arranged in lieu.
  We are not talking about exploitation. For many the opportunity to work on Sunday is not disagreeable. As one weekly journal showed recently, for many people it is preferable to not working at all. Retailers as well as employees must exercise some flexibility and adapt to a new situation which will create opportunities for work for many more people.
  I fully support the Bill. If industry works seven days a week, it is rewarded. Why penalise retailers and consumers?
  9.23 pm
  Dame Jill Knight: During the debate we have had our moments of humour and on one occasion we even managed a little pantomime, but in
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  general the occasion is uncomfortable and even painful for most hon. Members. For myself, I cannot decide which is the greater discomfort — my indigestion or my indignation.
  My indignation is because I think it wrong to have a three-line Whip tonight. I am told the reason is that it was thought that the Bill would not get through without a three-line Whip. So be it. If we believe in democracy and in votes in the House, surely what the House says on a free vote should be good enough. I cannot remember a three-line Whip being imposed on such an issue — a moral issue. I tell the Government that there would have been no shame in being defeated on a free vote. That is the voice of Parliament. Only those who are ashamed to listen to the voice of democracy can deny that we should have been allowed to say freely what we wished this evening.
  My indigestion is also extremely painful because of what I am being asked to swallow.
  Shops already open six days a week, often until 8 pm or 9 pm. Surely that is enough. I do not believe in all these families that are supposed to be unable to shop at any other time than on Sunday because that is the only time they can be together. That is not true, and I cannot swallow the contention that an extra day of shopping is called for.
  I am sick and tired of being told, as we are told repeatedly—and my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Arnold) rehearsed the same catalogue—that, on Sunday, one can buy pornography but not a Bible. In 20 years of representing my constituency I have never had one constituent complain to me angrily that he was unable to buy a Bible on a Sunday, and no complaints have been made about buying other things on Sunday, either.
  I cannot digest the argument that freedom is jeopardised by the inability to shop everywhere on Sundays. We should remember that the extension of freedom to one citizen frequently means the diminution of freedom to another. The freedom of many people will be curtailed if this Bill becomes law. I refer, for instance, to the people who actually live in shopping centres. One woman wrote to me to say that Sunday was the only day on which her relatives could come to see her because only then could they park their car reasonably near her house. She said that if Sunday trading were introduced there would not be a day on which she could look forward to her family visiting her. She should also be free of the noise of cars being parked and the crowds of people Sunday shopping near her.
  Hon. Members should not fool themselves into thinking that we can protect workers who do not want to work on Sunday from being made to work. In many cases, employers will not employ people unless they agree to work on a Sunday. I have read the Bill carefully. What would be the position of those whom it purports to defend? The Bill will affect people who have been working in a shop for some years. Suppose that a shop decides to open and a person who has been working there claims the right not to work on a Sunday. What would be the position of such an employee vis-á-vis the other employees in the shop? A great deal of irritation could be aroused if one person gets Sundays off and others have to work. It is not the same thing to have off another day of the week. I expect that the chances of such a person gaining promotion would be fairly slim.
  Many shopkeepers do not want to open on a Sunday. Many have written to me and come to see me, telling me

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  that they do not want to open on a Sunday but that they have to do so if their competitors open. Only this morning I received the following letter from a constituent:
  "I have been employed as a fishmonger in Birmingham bull ring market for over 30 years, five and a half days a week averaging 53 hours."
  He has now been informed by the Birmingham council
  "that in the event of the proposed Sunday Trading Act being passed we will have to open on Sundays or they will revoke our licence. My employer has told me that rather than open and pay more rent, rates and service charges he will close down, putting me out of work."
  The Bill does not deal with the situation outlined by my constituent, but scores if not hundreds of people will be forced into working on Sundays when they do not wish to do so. We must not fool ourselves into thinking the Bill will protect people in that situation.
  I do not understand the supposed economic viability of the Bill. I cannot see where all of the extra money will come from when it is not there to be spent from Monday to Saturday. I cannot swallow that or the argument about Scotland. I was impressed by what my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) said about that. I agree that the present law is a mess, but there again I am in trouble when I try to swallow the fact that there is no alternative to sweeping it all away. I do not believe that we must have a free-for-all or no change.
  It has been suggested that, if the Bill is defeated, hon. Members should tramp around their constituencies reporting those who trade on Sundays. I have never thought that snooping was my job as a Member of Parliament. We have many choices about what to do. For example, we could allow opening when there is a clear demand. Garden centres have been mentioned. They are usually quite distant from town centres. [Interruption.] I do not think the acres of glasshouses which have been described are in towns. It would not be impossible to accommodate such demands. Some leisure trades could be permitted.
  I cannot see that we must sweep away all controls because we want garden and DIY centres to remain open. We could restrict the hours of opening. We could consider zoning and what other countries are doing. Auld gave only one paragraph to the option of allowing shops to open until 1 pm, which happens in Luxembourg, and less than two paragraphs to allowing shops with three employees or fewer to open, as happens in France. The Auld committee ignored the experience of 10 European countries which limit Sunday trading.
  I cannot swallow the contention that the House can only sweep everything away or leave things as they are but enforce the restrictions. We could restrict according to size. It has been argued that that would be impossible, but VAT is levied according to the size of the business.
  Never do I accept an official engagement on a Sunday and I do not see why I should force others to do so. The country is going backwards in some respects. I used to have milk delivered on the step every morning, but now the dairy has decided that two pints on Saturday will do and that the milkman should get Sunday off. I am all for that.
  The Bill would change the character of Sunday fundamentally and irretrievably, and I shall vote against it.
  9.33 pm
  Mr. Allen McKay: I have thought deeply about Sunday trading because it affects many people in many ways. It concerns especially the traditional British Sunday that we have had for generations. Conservative Members have said that Sunday has changed, and so it has, but not so greatly that it should be like any other day of the week. Sunday is a special day, for special purposes. That is how it has always been, despite the way in which it has been presented.
  There are many anomalies in Sunday trading. I am sure that the Government are not trying to kid the House that the only way that we can get rid of the anomalies is by wiping them out altogether and bringing in not a Sunday trading Bill but a deregulation of trading whereby shops can open seven days a week, 24 hours a day, if they wish. The legislation will bring about a free-for-all.
  I have received only two letters in favour of Sunday opening. I have received applications from Asda and from Woolworth, which have said that Sunday trading will be to the benefit of their customers. I do not know how they reach that conclusion. I have received many letters from people objecting to Sunday trading, on religious and other grounds. We must take account of the habits of generations.
  What do those Conservative Members who believe that Sunday opening is a good idea think will happen to traditional family life? What will happen to those people who, Sunday after Sunday, have had their mother or father up for dinner or tea? They will say, "We shall get in the car and go shopping." People will no longer sit with their feet up on Sundays.
  The hon. Member for Boothferry (Sir P. Bryan) suggested that people now drive to Scarborough, Bridlington or Filey. People forget that families have a car because the wife works six days a week in a shop. Without a shadow of doubt, people will volunteer to work on Sundays. With unemployment of 25 or 30 per cent., of course people will volunteer to work on Sundays. They will work, not because they want to, but because it is necessary. We must not forget that there is only so much money to go around. The wage comes in on Friday, and the women put a certain amount aside for shopping. That is all that they have to spend. If the money is spent on Sunday, it can certainly not be spent during the rest of the week. With seven days a week shopping, prices will be increased because the cost per unit will be increased. Increased heating charges and extra wages will force shops to increase prices.
  If shops are open on Sunday, an improved transport system will be needed. The transport system has just been deregulated, putting some services in doubt. Most of the large stores will put on their own bus services to attract customers. People will get into the habit of using those services. Small shopkeepers will find that the number of shoppers is dwindling, and they will have to close.
  Mrs. Anna McCurley: Rubbish.
  Mr. McKay: It is happening now. More duties will be imposed on the police. It will be necessary to have the same fire cover that is provided from Monday to Saturday. Street cleaners will be needed. We are talking about making Sunday the same as other days and having the same requirements. Sunday will no longer be a normal rest day.

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  For 20 years I worked seven days a week, sometimes 12 hours a day. When I arrived home, I wanted my wife at home, not in a shop. I depended on that. If she had not been at home, I would not have worked on Sundays. There is more to the matter than some people realise.
  I am not a regular churchgoer, but from talking to people who go to church, I know that the Bill will do them a big disservice. Indeed, it will be an insult to the Church and to churchgoing people if Sunday is made a normal day. At present, those who want to go to church go to church, while those who want to stay away stay away. That is beyond a shadow of doubt. We should not interfere with our Sundays and that way of life. If the Bill is passed, we and the Government will certainly regret it.
  9.30 pm
  Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn: As the Scottish experience has been much quoted, and as one who has experienced it rather than read about it in figures, I can advise the House about it. The Shops Act 1950 never applied to Scotland, nor has any restriction on trading ever been applied to Scotland. We are natural Calvinists. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine) should have understood that.
  Mr. Michael J. Martin: I am not a Calvinist.
  Mr. Fairbairn: I am not one either, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman will keep quiet for a moment and assume that we are seen to be natural Calvinists.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point said that the position in Scotland was different because we were such good men. Let me remind him that until the shops opened in Scotland, thanks to trading in England, no Presbyterian church in Scotland ever opened on Good Friday or Christmas Day, and opened for only one hour on Sundays and then shut again. Therefore, let us have no fantasising that trading and religion are related other than as Scotland shows to its benefit.
  Some of the biggest hypermarkets in Britain are open in Edinburgh and people go to them as a family. I have heard no complaints. In Kinross, which is a town of about 3,000 people, only one or two shops are open. There is a market for Sunday trading and it would benefit the people there, if they were so inclined.
  The new argument about Scotland is that we did not have to be subject to part IV of the 1950 Act because we were in some way such good citizens of God that we did not need the law of man. That was not said at the time, nor was it true. Then it was said of Scotland, "It is all very well for you little squirts to be exempted from part IV but if England is, woe betide Scotland". Why did they say that? I understand that in England the Licensing Act (Scotland) 1976 is something of which English Conservative Members are afraid. But in 1976 the licensing law of Scotland was liberalised completely, and instead of making us a nation of drunks, which we were supposed to be, it has made us a nation of sober people.
  The next argument, which I find extraordinary, is that if people are allowed to shop on Sunday, corporate worship will not be possible in England. As a Christian, I believe that God works seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and that one can worship Him at any time. Any time I have been in a church in England there have been fewer
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  people in the pews in corporate worship than hymns on the list. Therefore, I am not impressed by the argument of corporate worship.
  Those who oppose the Bill suffer from the postbag fallacy. They imagine that because they receive many letters—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] In that case they receive a lot of rubbish.
  Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark: Do not be so patronising.
  Mr. Fairbairn: I will not be patronising.
  Mr. Beaumont-Dark: Well, my hon. and learned Friend sounds it.
  Mr. Fairbairn: There is one person in this place whom I would not patronise, and that is my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Beaumont-Dark).
  As a Scot, the idea that we should keep Sunday special is one that I find offensive. I regard every day of the week as special and every Sunday is different. What is Sunday special for? Is it a day on which to be specially lazy, specially boring, specially relaxed or specially quiet? What is it to be?
  Let us consider the traditional Sunday in England, which is what we are supposed to protect. What are the two great traditions of the English Sunday? We know that church is not one for 90 per cent. of the people. One of the great traditions is the Sunday newspaper. If someone read them all, he would be kept out of church. The second great tradition is the Sunday lunch of roast beef and Yorkshire pudding. That would keep anyone out of church who had to cook it.
  Those who are against the Bill should be against shopping on Monday. If a bishop expects to be able to buy his newspaper and his roll, visit his parishoners and have electric light on Monday, he is expecting people to work on Sunday, on the great traditional day of rest. Monday is the day that makes people work on Sunday.
  It has been said that we should save the sabbath. That means that we shall see Saturday and Monday as different days and Sunday will be all right for trading. Some hon. Members have talked about religion. Let me remind them of what Christ said in Matthew, chapter 12. The passage reads:
  "At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
  But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
  But he said unto them"—
  this is verse five
  "have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?"
  We know that the gospel of St. Mark states:
  "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."
  That was an explanation of what was meant.
  In Scotland, which is said to be a more religious nation than England or Wales, we have enjoyed the liberty which is proposed for England and Wales. We have enjoyed Sunday as a day of joy, relaxation and fun. As a result, we have worshipped the Lord more. I believe that those who oppose the Bill are the Pharisees of today.
  9.49 pm
  Mr. Frank Cook: Anyone who tried to deny that the existing regulations on Sunday trading did not require revision would be accused, rightly, of speaking nonsense. Of course they are crazy and of course they need amending. But the fact that they require amendment is no justification for removing all control on Sunday trading.
  I have been surprised by those who have argued that the Bill is justified because the current law is not enforced. It is said that many shops open freely and that no action is taken against the owners. If that logic had been carried to its conclusion some time ago and it had been applied to the murder and mutilation that was perpetrated by Jack the Ripper, the repeal of capital punishment would have occurred about three quarters of a century earlier than it was achieved by sound reason.
  Another reason given by a Conservative Member was that right hon. and hon. Members can apparently take the opportunity to break the law by purchasing whatever they like on a Sunday. Therefore, the fact that hon. Members can do that is some form of justification. I suggest that that is another form of twisted and convoluted logic. If that form of rationale were applied, it would mean that we would shortly be legalising prostitution and importuning in public. I cannot accept that that would in any way justify our discussions tonight.
  The hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Fairbairn) referred to the postbag syndrome with a degree of almost contempt in his voice. I suggest that any hon. Member who has the temerity or audacity to disregard the genuine representations of any of his constituents does so at his or her peril at the next election. It does not cut any ice in my mind to say that the majority of the electorate want to see the removal of all controls. That has been said previously. I do not believe that, nor do I believe that the public believe that. I have had over 160 letters against and six in favour of these proposals.
  I have had several petitions against the Bill from many parishes in my constituency. All of those were in the prescribed form of parliamentary prayers and acceptable to the House. I have had one for the proposed change collected by a supermarket, outside my constituency incidentally, containing names which included Roy Rogers and Mickey Mouse residing at addresses in Hollywood and the O K Corral and some slightly nearer my home in the east. That petition was clearly unacceptable in its presented form.
  How can we genuinely assess the Home Secretary's assertion that the petition score to date is 1·4 million in favour and 1·2 million against? What yardstick can we use? If we no longer count the number of signatures, perhaps we may be able to get some idea by counting the number of petitions. One hundred and six petitions have been presented to the House in proper parliamentary form. That number reflects only those which were acceptable.
  What about those presented for the proposals? I made inquiries at the Journal Office earlier today. I received a written reply from the Clerk, when he had checked the records, in which he said:
  "I have checked that there have been no petitions in favour of unlimited Sunday trading which have been in order…All petitions presented up to today have been in favour of some kind of regulation of such trading."
  They were not in favour of removal.
  I suggest that we need some evidence of the Home Secretary's assertion that there were 1·4 million in favour
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  and 1·2 million against. I simply do not believe that, and I challenge the Home Secretary to substantiate that statement here and now or to have the common decency to withdraw it before the vote tonight.
  The truth is that the Government are hell-bent on a doctrinaire and dogmatic approach. We have a skilfully negotiated emphasis on Second Reading rather than on a reasoned amendment. I suspect that that is a means of regimenting the reluctant Conservative rookies who might have conscientiously sought refuge in the more sensible approaches counselled by an Opposition more in tune with the genuine concern of an anxious electorate.
  I submit that the motion for a two-hour extension of debate until midnight, which we shall be considering in about six minutes, is no more than a cynical ploy to allow the more craven Conservative representatives, who have publicly expressed opposition to these proposals, to present some specious statement of sterile objection before cowering to the pressure of their party's bully boys and whispering their abstention in the Smoking Room as usual. I remind them that there will be no place to hide when the Division lists are published, and the next election is not many Sundays away from tonight.
  9.55 pm
  Mr. Patrick Cormack: The hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) will probably have to eat many of his words when he sees the Division lists, because many of us look upon a three-line Whip as an invitation to be present, and that is why we are here.
  It is regrettable that on the strength of a report compiled by three people the Government have decided to go along this road. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mrs. Roe) talked about garden centres, and others of my hon. Friends have referred to small shops. Many of us believe, with them, that there are anomalies. We are not against garden centres or small shops being open on Sundays, but we are against the high street Sunday. To suggest that the Bill, if passed, will not lead to a radical change in our way of life on Sundays is to fly in the face of the facts and the evidence.
  I refer to the eloquent speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine). He referred to Good Friday. I well remember my first Good Friday in the west midlands. I had come from Lincolnshire, where that day was properly observed, no shops were open and the churches were reasonably well attended. I drove up the main street of Wolverhampton and was so shocked by the extraordinary activity, with every shop open, that I ran into the car in front of me. That brought home to me in a realistic way the fact that here was something that had been changed beyond recall. The change in Good Friday in the west midlands began in the war when, for understandable reasons, people worked all the hours that God sent. Having once departed from that tradition, they have departed from it for good. Now, throughout the country, in many towns and villages, Good Friday is indistinguishable from any other day, and people do not even know that it is a religious festival.
  I am confident that if the Government do not accept a reasoned amendment and do not abandon their policy of total deregulation, within a decade what has happened to Good Friday in many parts of the country will happen to Sundays in most parts of the country. The onus is upon the

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  Government to find a compromise. There are compromises. We have talked about hours and numbers of people. I say to my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General that other things can be considered, too.
  Garden centres could be exempt. Small shops below a certain size could automatically be licensed to trade on Sundays. If, in order to achieve a compromise that would be acceptable to those who are thoroughly opposed to the Bill as it stands, the high street shops were allowed to trade on four Sundays of the year, we would still be preserving what many of us hold dear. It could easily be done on a licensing system. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame J. Knight) referred to the fact that VAT is levied according to turnover. That has not presented insuperable obstacles to legislators or bureaucrats.
  I say to my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench that there are compromises, there are solutions. If the
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  Government truly believe in the character of the British Sunday and that Sunday is a special day — I do not question the sincerity of my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench — it is up to them to look at the realistic alternatives and adopt one or a combination of them. They should realise that if the Bill is passed in its present form many people will suffer. If it is not passed, nobody will suffer. I hope that tonight the House will deliver a warning to the Government and say, "This is something that we are not prepared to put up with. Take it away and think again."
  I shall vote for the Bill on one condition. That condition is a total commitment from my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General that the Government will declare their determination to abandon the part of the Bill concerning total deregulation. If they did that, they would get great support. If they do not do that—and I fear that they will not — just as I voted against the Auld committee report in May 1985, I shall vote against the Bill tonight without any qualms, compunctions or consideration for Whips, be they one, two or three-line.

  Shops Bill [Lords]
  9.59 pm
  Mr. Peter Pike: The speech of the hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Fairbairn) did not help the case he was advocating one iota. For him to suggest that Members of Parliament who oppose the Bill—
  It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Motion made, and Question put,
  That, at this day's sitting, the Shops Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until Twelve o'clock.—[Mr. Neubert.]
  The House proceeded to a Division—
  Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Donald Thompson were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, and Mr. Walter Harrison was appointed Teller for the Noes, but no Member being willing to act as a second Teller for the Noes, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.
  Ordered,
  That, at this day's sitting, the Shops Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until Twelve o'clock.
  Question again proposed, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Mr. Pike: The hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross, who suggested that those of us who oppose the Bill do so because of weighty mail bags and the post that we have received, considerably insulted the integrity of many hon. Members who hold strong views against the proposals. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. Will hon. Members please leave the Chamber quietly?
  Mr. Pike: I do not believe that Members of Parliament are delegates to the House and that they make up their minds according to the amount of mail—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Sheerman: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Ministers are leading an organised talking shop to stop Labour Members from being heard.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) is entitled to be heard. I appeal for quietness in the Chamber.
  Mr. Pike: I do not believe that Members of Parliament make their decisions on these issues according to the weight of mail in their postbags. Of course we have to pay due regard to the mail that we receive, but at the end of the day we must make up our own minds. One of the first issues on which I was lobbied when I came to the House in 1983 was Sunday trading. I was lobbied by a large retail group which supports the Government's proposals. I made it clear then that I opposed deregulation. I spoke against the Auld report and I have consistently opposed deregulation and will continue to do so.
  One of the great weaknesses in the Government's case is shown by the fact that they need a three-line Whip to force the Bill through the House today. It is nonsense to say that there will be free voting in Committee and at later stages. It is today that Members have to decide on the principle of the Bill. Committee Chairmen always make it clear that the principle of the Bill has already been established. Members on both sides should have had a free
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  vote today. Opposition Members will now be subject to a three-line Whip against the Bill, but we have been forced into that position by the Government's stance. I totally disagree with the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), who said that he would have liked to support the Bill, but I believe that he should have had the opportunity to do so. There was nothing in the Government's election manifesto about 24-hour trading, 365 days of the year, as the Bill proposes, and it is quite wrong for them to put on a three-line Whip today.
  It is also wrong for the Government to say that it is up to the opponents of the Bill to put forward alternative proposals. It is for the Government to find a solution acceptable to the House on a free vote, so that it can become the will of Parliament, and ultimately the law of the land. It is entirely wrong to say that because there is no agreement on the type of amendments needed to deal with the present anomalies the only course is to accept the Bill. If it is a bad Bill, it should be rejected today. I accept that there are anomalies in the present legislation and that changes may well be needed, but I do not accept that we have to agree to total deregulation.
  As a number of my hon. Friends have said, the Bill will affect not only shop workers. Car park attendants, street cleaners, transport workers and many other people will be compelled to work on Sundays. Moreover, this measure cannot be divorced from the Wages Bill currently going through Parliament, which will considerably reduce protection for those workers, many of whom already receive very low wages and work in very poor conditions. Those people need all the protection that they can get, but the proposals before us today will further erode their working conditions.
  Before I came to the House I worked in an industry in which, because of the nature of the process—making glass television tubes—I had to work on Sundays. I had only six Sundays a year at home, so I know how much one's wife and children and family life are affected, as well as the religious aspects that have been mentioned in the debate. We should not compel more people to work on Sundays. There may well be volunteers in the first instance, but there will undoubtedly be some arm twisting. Given the present level of unemployment, I am convinced that job applicants will be asked at interviews whether they are willing to work on Sundays. If they are not, it will not be surprising if they are not given the job.
  The Bill will create no extra training. It is thoroughly bad. If it must go through, it is essential to protect the conditions of the employees in the industries affected.
  The hon. Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack) should think carefully again about what he said. He should have the courage of his convictions and go into the "No" Lobby to vote against the Bill. He should tell the Government to come back with a more acceptable proposal to deal with the present anomalies. When the Government are able to obtain a majority on a free vote, we shall then have an acceptable proposal that will deal with the problem.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The winding-up speeches are expected to begin at 11 o'clock. I again appeal for very brief contributions.
  10.11 pm
  Mr. David Atkinson: The decision before us tonight is one that the House has run away from for far too long and on too many occasions. Last year the House faced up to it by approving the principle of new legislation based on the Auld recommendation of complete deregulation. The Bill proposes precisely that.
  In my view, there is no compromise that will be credible, acceptable, workable or enforceable. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said, none of the compromises suggested so far stands up to that analysis. The only realistic alternative to what the Bill proposes is the strictest possible enforcement of the existing criminal law by local authorities.
  Indeed, it must be obvious that the existing law will need to be strengthened to eliminate all the anomalies and loopholes if it is to be workable and enforceable, which at present it clearly is not. Such enforcement may prove to be costly as well as time-consuming for the courts. It will undoubtedly prove to be unpopular.
  I also accept that this entire issue involves personal and religious conviction. It is therefore a matter of conscience for many, if not most, hon. Members, including myself. As a regular churchgoer, I have given great thought to the three major private Members' Bills that have been introduced during my time in the House, which I have supported. In particular, I have given great thought to the arguments currently being used by the Keep Sunday Special campaign.
  As a Roman Catholic, I fully appreciated what Cardinal Hume said in his letter to The Times on 1 March—that Sunday stands for the Creator's seventh day, His day of rest from His work, the day on which Christ rose from the dead, and the day of our re-creation. Those are the reasons why Christians have a personal duty to uphold Sunday as a day of rest for themselves and their families, and in so doing they offer a lead to others who are not so observant.
  But I disagree with Cardinal Hume in that I do not believe that it is right to use the criminal law to constrain people's behaviour on a Sunday or to prevent them from doing what they could otherwise do on any other day of the week. I am convinced that a Christian state should not impose Sunday observance by compulsion and that it must be a matter of personal conviction. England's Christian heritage is more likely to survive in a way that is meaningful, rather than by myth alone, only if it is maintained by the freely expressed personal choice of its people rather than by the enforced protection of the state.
  I appreciate that the Keep Sunday Special campaigners are not opposing the Bill to make it easier to go to Sunday services by ensuring that there is less temptation to do other things. If they did only that, as the Sabbatarians did in the last century when it certainly did not amuse Queen Victoria, they would only be exposing a failure on the part of many of our churches to inspire and enthuse and attract 90 per cent. of our population who do not go to church at all. Most churches offer services and masses at times which enable most people to go to church and to do other things on Sunday.
  Their main argument is about the quality of life, the "traditional character" argument, and it is an argument that has been repeated in many of the letters sent to me and to other hon. Members. It has also been repeated in this debate. It is an argument that advocates the protection of
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  Sunday as a day of rest, relaxation and reflection, during which the entire family can get together, free from the pressures of the rest of the week. That is desirable and Utopian and it is the sort of thing I should like for myself and my family, but I do not presume that it is what everybody wants for himself or for his family.
  It is not the role of this House to impose that idea upon those who would otherwise opt for another day of rest, particularly those who do not have families or who live on their own. As Members of Parliament, we should not deny families the opportunity to shop together on Sunday, should shops be open, if that is their choice about how they should spend part of their Sunday. Nor are we here to suggest what goods people should be allowed to buy on Sunday. That is not my idea of Utopia or of a free society. Neither is it my idea of what my party stands for. I do not accept that the proposals in the Bill are contrary to what the majority of people want.
  Mr. Christopher Hawkins: In the midst of all this freedom of choice, can my hon. Friend tell me what freedom of choice the shop workers will have?
  Mr. Atkinson: I shall come to the matter of employee protection a little later and I hope I will be able to answer my hon. Friend. I have received hundreds of letters and as many have been in favour of the Bill as against it. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that he received two petitions and said they were roughly balanced, in favour and against. Opinion polls are similarly divided. There have been many predictions about what would happen following deregulation and they suggest the end of all civilised peace and quiet as we know it on Sunday. Those predictions will prove to be widely exaggerated.
  We do not know and cannot accurately forecast what shopkeepers will do about Sunday opening. It will be their own free choice to open on Sunday, or during part of it, or not at all. We do not know whether consumers will choose to shop, if shops are open. One thing is clear, and it is that if all the retailers who have voiced their opposition to deregulation used their new freedom to opt to remain closed on Sunday, very little would change and few people would be required to work on Sunday even if they wanted to, as many do. Under the terms of this Bill, the buck stops with the retailers.
  My hon. Friend asked about employee participation. I feel just as strongly about that as any vocal USDAW member. There must be adequate protection in law for employees who choose to put their family and religion first when facing any demand to work on Sunday. I could not support the Bill unless it contained such protection. My right hon. Friend has said that the Bill does contain such protection, including protection against any action short of dismissal. In the course of the debate we have heard it said that such protection will not be adequate. I shall be very worried if that proves to be the case. We must wait and see.
  Mr. Sheerman rose—
  Mr. Atkinson: I may be answering the hon. Gentleman in a second. Few employers will attempt to force any employee to work on a Sunday if he does not want to, and fewer still will risk the glare of national publicity resulting from a test case.
  What are trade unions for if they are not there to look after the working conditions of their members? Employee

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  protection represents the real challenge of the Bill to the trade unions and the churches. They should not seek a criminal law to enforce Sunday observance but ensure that the new law is used to protect their members against unprincipled and heathen employers. I hope that the unions and churches will take on this constructive and positive role once the Bill is law.
  10.20 pm
  Mr. Michael J. Martin: People north of the border are worried that, if companies are allowed Sunday opening on a nationwide basis, many London-based companies will open in Scotland. Therefore, it is nonsense to say that, because Sunday trading is allowed and retailers in Scotland behave themselves now, that state of affairs will continue if the Bill is passed.
  Glasgow and Edinburgh have more tenements than any other cities in Europe. My constituency, which represents one tenth of Glasgow, has three main shopping areas—Duke street, Saracen street and Springburn road — in which almost every shop has at least eight families living above it. The only day that such people get peace and quiet is Sunday.
  After Saturday trading, housewives have to clean up the dirt and filth in the mouth of the tenement, and they are ashamed to allow their friends to visit them. The dirt and filth that traders and sometimes customers can create is deplorable. We have Sunday openings for pubs as well, and that causes a great many problems where there is a concentration of families. It is ridiculous to suggest that people who live in the city centre should not at least have a chance of peace and quiet. The do-it-yourself stores, such as B and Q, are usually on industrial estates and do not cause any harm or create a nuisance.
  It is shameful for hon. Members to deride those who write to Members of Parliament on this or any other issue. My constituency is 400 miles away from the House. The only opportunity that people have to make their views known to the House is through me. Therefore, they are entitled to write to me and to present petitions. If we deride those people, we are telling them that writing to Members of Parliament and making their views known is not good enough, but we should be encouraging such action not only on this but on every issue.
  In the east end of Glasgow there is an institution known as the Barrows, which has been in existence for 60 years. People can set up stores and sell their goods on a Saturday or a Sunday. People from every part of Glasgow go there to buy produce. It is an exciting place to be because, even if one does not want to buy anything, one can listen to the patter of people selling their goods. Anything from cottons to a car can be bought. If the Government insist on high street Sunday trading, the people of Glasgow who will suffer will be the traders at the Barrows. The people whom the Government and Conservative Members support—the tradesman, the business man and woman; those who are conducting an honest, decent trade—will suffer.
  I know from working in engineering that wherever men worked two nights and a Sunday it could be proved conclusively that absenteeism for the rest of the week was higher than in companies where the men did not work on a Sunday. If people are working seven days a week, something has to give. More often than not people will take a day off during the week, because they get double time on Sunday. Even if they do not intend to take time
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  off, sometimes their body tells them that they must take some rest. It was said earlier that people will be put under pressure. If someone who objects to working on a Sunday is asked to work in place of someone who is ill, he or she will feel, if they refuse, they are letting down their employers as well as their fellow workers. There is no doubt that there will be pressure on people.
  As a Scottish Member, I believe that the effect of the Bill north of the border will be just as profound as south of the border. I am against the legislation.
  10.26 pm
  Sir Fergus Montgomery: The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), who is not present, has been one of the strongest proponents of Sunday trading. He began his speech by saying that he believed in it, but at the end he said that he would vote against Second Reading. One begins to wonder just how much principle there is there.
  The hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) was strongly against the Bill. He lives in Scotland and represents a Scottish constituency. Every shop in his constituency is permitted to open on a Sunday if it wishes. Why should his constituency be allowed that right when we in England do not have such a right?
  I am amazed that all these born again Christians should have suddenly discovered that there is something called Sunday and that there is something special about it. The Labour party holds political meetings and goes canvassing on Sundays, yet it talks about Sunday shopping being an affront to the Church. I have never heard such nonsense in all of my life.
  The law as it stands is absurd and full of anomalies. My hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Arnold) enunciated a long list of those stupid anomalies. Why can some items be sold and others not? A few years ago in Sale an owner of a do-it-yourself shop kept opening on Sunday. He was reported, taken to court and fined. Many local people felt so sorry for him that they got together an enormous petition and gave it to me. If I have made a mistake, I shall apologise, but the right hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme), who lives near that do-it-yourself shop, was one of those who signed the petition. I have no doubt at all that many of the people who are opposed to the Bill signed that petition. All I can say is that if the Bill is not given a Second Reading tonight and if the law is enforced, many people will feel sorry for small shopkeepers who are then taken to court and fined for breaking the law.
  Opponents of reform have kept changing their tactics. There have been various private Members' Bills over the years. Some just wanted to tidy up the list of exemptions. Others wanted to give responsibilities to the various local authorities. Some wanted total repeal, as the Bill envisages. The opponents of Sunday trading have kept changing their arguments. In the beginning they said that there was no need for reform. Then they said that partial reform was wrong for one reason or another. When my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) introduced his Bill, it was said that a committee of inquiry was needed. The result was the Auld committee, which was set up in July 1983 and reported in November 1984. A total of 300 organisations and 7,000 individuals submitted written evidence. Many organisations gave oral evidence. Yet we are told by the Bill's opponents that the

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  measure has not been sufficiently thought through and that there has not been sufficient consultation. How much consultation is necessary to please the opponents of the legislation?
  The Auld committee examined all the alternatives and concluded that the removal of restrictions on trading hours offered the best and only way. It said that if the Bill became law, it would not force any shop to open or compel people to work on a Sunday against their will.
  Retail workers under the Bill would be offered a protection not offered to workers who now work on a Sunday such as those in the licensed trade, cinemas and restaurants. I cannot understand why a scheme which has worked satisfactorily for 40 years in Scotland should be denied to the people of England and Wales.
  I cannot for the life of me understand how hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies can vote with ease against such a measure. If the law in Scotland is satisfactory, why should we not have the same facilities? The Scottish experience has not resulted in higher prices or increased costs for ratepayers, and it has not forced small shops out of business.
  In New York city, shopkeepers have the freedom to open if they wish. The result is that, of the big department stores, Alexander's opens but the other three stay closed on Sunday. The experience in New York city is similar to that in Scotland. Some shops choose to open, but the majority do not.
  Some may say that if that is so, why bother to change? Sunday in Scotland is not much different from Sunday in England and Wales. The reason for changing is that the criminal law can be used against shopkeepers in England and Wales who open on a Sunday and sell items on the restricted list.
  The opponents of the Bill should carry their arguments to their logical conclusion. Will petrol stations, pubs, restaurants or cinemas stay open? Shall we have newspapers on a Sunday because they are delivered on a Sunday? Shall we have newspapers on a Monday because they are printed on Sunday? If we are to have them at all, why differentiate between shopkeepers who want to open and provide a service and other activities?
  No shop will be forced to open on a Sunday. No one will be forced to shop. If people do not want Sunday trading, shops will not open. No shopkeeper will stand behind his counter all day Sunday to take nothing. If the demand is not there, the shops will not open.
  I ask the Bill's opponents how many churches now break the law? On Sunday 6 April, at Coventry cathedral, imitation pearl necklaces, Mickey Mouse woven bookmarks, Winnie the Pooh jigsaw puzzles, a tea towel about wine, a Holy Bible with illustrated cover, a book called "100 Classic Pubs in the Heart of England", a pencil sharpener in the form of a toy vintage car, a miniature plastic sewing case, a Kermit the Frog key ring and a mounted thermometer marked "Coventry-Lady Godiva", were available for sale. None of those items may be sold legally on a Sunday.
  I have received letters from various people saying that if I dare to vote for the Bill, they will not vote for me at the next election. That is a matter for their conscience. It is very sad that they apparently think that it is all right for them to have a conscience that I respect, but that I may not have a conscience that they respect. All of us are
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  entitled to our views on this issue. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite are trying to interrupt. Why should one of their strongest supporters of Sunday trading — the hon. Member for Great Grimsby—now turn turtle and vote against it? Perhaps the hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. Dubs) will answer that point in winding up the debate.
  Mr. Sheerman: The hon. Gentleman has not read the Bill.
  Sir Fergus Montgomery: I have read it. I hope that those who do not share my views on the Bill will at least respect my conscience when I vote for Second Reading this evening.
  10.36 pm
  Mr. Humfrey Malins: The law on Sunday trading is full of anomalies, eccentricities and inconsistencies, but I do not see that that alone is a compelling argument for changing it. If we were to change every law that was inconsistent, we would spend our whole time changing laws—there is far too much of it. If I had been in charge of the Government—which I am not, yet — I would have left this whole matter completely alone, because I believe we have brought on ourselves anguish and unpleasantness that we could have avoided by leaving it alone and concentrating on other matters.
  If it is really necessary to change the law, deregulation is completely wrong. Deregulation is totally out of character for a Conservative Government and party. I have a feeling that if the Labour Government had introduced a Bill to deregulate Sunday trading the Conservatives to a man would have fought it. We would have been out in the country trying to protect the traditional English Sunday, and we would have got a great deal of support and votes as a result.
  Like many of my hon. Friends, I have received hundreds of letters on this matter. They are not typical photocopied word-processed letters; they are not from professional lobbyists. These letters are from individuals. They are handwritten and carefully thought out by people who are concerned, who are working in this society and who are genuinely worried about the effects of total deregulation. One lady writes from Croydon:
  "However, I think that in modern day society the family as such has taken a lot of devaluation, and traditional togetherness and companionship of families on a Sunday (the quiet, free day of the week) seems to be growing less. We really need to preserve this set of values to give children growing up a sense of security and everything that families can give each other to enable the whole community to live in peace together."
  These people are writing to me and saying not that they do not want any trading on Sundays, but that total deregulation is a mistake and we must adopt some compromise that will protect the essential character of Sunday.
  I hope it does not sound pompous and trite if I say that the Government are the trustees of the British heritage and traditions. A Conservative Government bear a special responsibility in this respect. We have a traditional Sunday at present. The Auld committee has said that there is no doubt that the widespread opening of shops on Sunday would affect the traditional character of the day. Do we therefore want our traditional Sunday to be so greatly changed? At present, it is a day given over to worship, family reunion, contemplation, peace, and a little quiet

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  —a day different from the rest. Do we want to continue to have a day different from the rest? How often have my hon. Friends heard people say, "It has been a terrible week. Thank God, Sunday is coming up."? If we have the total deregulation proposed, we shall end up in 20 years with it being impossible to make such a comment. I am the son and grandson of clergymen. Unfortunately, my father takes a view about this matter different from mine, so I cannot cite him in support of what I say. However, I am a great believer in the importance of family life.
  Earlier, we were told about the absence of pressure in country areas, but in Croydon life is pretty rough Monday to Saturday. It is fairly hard going living near the A23. If Sunday trading is totally deregulated, the whole atmosphere of Sunday will be changed. Life will become difficult and miserable for some people. The strain of modern life is getting worse, and families are being divided. Youngsters today have an awful time compared with the situation when I was young. The pressures today are much greater. I sincerely believe that this Bill in its present form is an attack on family life and that it can only create long-term problems and cause damage to the British family. The present Bill would begin to destroy the English Sunday, and I would greatly regret that.
  10.39 pm
  Mr. George Park: As we have heard, it is all too easy to draw attention to the many anomalies in the law on Sunday trading, but to go to the other extreme and remove all restrictions is to compound the nonsenses. We are told that it would be too difficult to frame legislation to iron out the anomalies, but I think that that is merely an expression of the Government's feeling that the Bill is somehow another step along the road to the Tory concept of freedom.
  It is extremely unfortunate that the Government have felt it necessary to apply a three-line Whip, not least because of the unhappy precedent that it will create for the handling of future issues of conscience. Sunday trading has always been treated as an issue of conscience. As recently as 1983 the Minister of State, Home Office said that the decision on Sunday trading must be left to the consciences of individual hon. Members. Values underpin many of the institutions on which our national life is built. They are under threat as it is, and removing all restrictions on Sunday trading will cut further into the roots that hold society together. From a social point of view, those concerns should be combined with the belief that one day of peace and quiet is a prerequisite to sane living in a modern society.
  From the shop workers' point of view, complete derestriction will mean that their jobs will become even more part time. As for the assurance about the protection of jobs, shop workers who feel that they cannot work on Sunday will soon find that their services are dispensed with. There is no clear benefit to be derived from Sunday trading in terms of prices, jobs or economic growth, but there are deeply held convictions concerning the nation's values, and we should reject the Bill.
  10.41 pm
  Mr. James Couchman: Yesterday almost encapsulated Sundays for me and my family. In the morning, together with the young French girl who is staying with us, we went to Canterbury cathedral. Unfortunately, because the bishops had found themselves
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  in a somewhat ambivalent position when the Bill was in the other place, the bookshop and stalls in the cathedral had been closed, so we were unable to offer our young guest a guide book in French so that she could understand what she was seeing. That seems somewhat silly.
  In the afternoon we went on to a nearby wildlife park, where we saw a number of people working hard, and apparently enthusiastically, to ensure that the visiting public had an enjoyable afternoon indulging in the type of family activity that undoubtedly makes Sunday special. Last evening, once again I became one of the 4 million people who regularly work on Sunday, for Sunday is an important day in my business routine.
  I am delighted to have caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because unusually, although not uniquely among hon. Members, I still run a retail business which trades seven days a week—quite legally, I hasten to add—as I am a licensee of five London pubs, which open for 364½ days a year. For four years I was a manager of one of the pubs, and worked every Sunday except when I was on annual leave.
  I still visit my various business premises regularly on a Sunday, as I did last evening, to talk to my managers, staff and customers. That experience is not shared by many of my hon. Friends, who have sought to dissociate themselves from the Government's attempt to deregulate Sunday trading. I must tell my hon. Friends that my experience leads me to support the Bill, with almost no reservations.
  Sunday is one of the pleasantest days on which to work in the pub trade. Customers are at their most affable and amiable. Staff do not shy away from a Sunday duty. Furthermore, many of my managers and staff have been and are Irish Roman Catholics, who have no difficulty attending mass on Sundays, which we, as responsible employers, encourage and co-operate with.
  On 14 February I met with the church folk in my constituency. It was a good-natured meeting, chaired by the archbishop, and, despite our substantial differences in attitude, each side listened to the other. I started by asking a series of questions. I asked how many of those present read Sunday newspapers and bought sweets, cigarettes, petrol and all the other goods available for sale on Sundays. I asked how many watched television, and had had recourse to emergency services on Sundays. Not unsurprisingly, I found that every hand in the hall was raised during my market research. That was not surprising, because we are all prepared to see others work on Sunday if it is for our convenience.
  We talked about the ridiculous anomalies and some of the myths which have developed during the campaign, including the idea that there will be many lorries on our roads if Sunday opening becomes the law. In my trade we rarely see Saturday deliveries and, in 15 years of running a seven-day a week business, I have never had a Sunday delivery. Shops rarely receive and send out deliveries on Saturday—how many fewer will they receive or send out on Sunday?
  We recognised between us that the law was in disrepute and that, although that was not a completely sound reason for deregulation—after all, we would hardly legalise murder or rape if they became commonplace—the present inability or unwillingness to enforce the law suggested the need for reform. We talked of people's undoubted enthusiasm to buy items on Sundays. I instanced the number of antique fairs held on Sunday and

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  the enormous Sunday market close to the borders of the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook), which is attended by thousands of people each week. Those people do not attend on an involuntary or compulsory basis—they go there because they want to be there.
  I think that we agreed at that meeting that there was no purpose in substituting one set of anomalies for another, or in substituting one unenforceable situation for another. Clearly, we should try to deregulate completely or return to the austere constraints of strict Sabbatarianism.
  We had a good discussion, and I found myself persuaded that the Government must include in their Bill adequate safeguards for shop workers who do not wish to work on Sundays. Several of my inquisitors conceded that I had presented a rational, logical and convincing case, but went on to puncture my ego by saying, "Of course, it is only human nature that we do some things that are irrational, such as preserving the status quo for Sundays."
  I am persuaded that Sunday is and will remain special, irrespective of the proposed deregulation. For many people who find little to do on Sunday, Sunday may become a little more special. Overwhelmingly, Sunday will remain a family day, because offices will not open, representatives will not represent, industry will not operate, schools will not open and the local government services will be confined to those that now operate. Those are the reasons why I shall support the Government with no heavy heart when they seek a Second Reading.
  10.48 pm
  Mr. Donald Anderson: I believe that the deep instinct of our people is to be against total deregulation of Sunday and the total free-for-all which is suggested by the Government. Wiser and more prudent Conservative Members recognise that and reflect the anxieties of those people whom they meet in their constituencies. Many of those people are traditional Conservative supporters who believe not in tidiness and rationality but in those traditions that the Conservative party claimed in its 1983 manifesto it would do its best to preserve. They recognise that there are anomalies in the present law but that the choice is not, as has been suggested, between the absolutes of total sabbatarianism and a free-for-all.
  Obviously, we recognise that because of history, tradition and our way of life, when it comes to such things as newspapers, sweets and cigarettes some people work and should continue to work on Sundays. The question is whether, as a result of the Government making a bonfire of controls, we should move from that position to one where many more will be forced effectively to work against their will on Sunday. That would drastically increase the rhythm of life on Sunday. Ultimately, Sunday would be just like any other day.
  It is naive in the extreme to think that the individual shop worker or small trader will be able to stand against the tide. The market forces which will be generated will ensure that, by and large, through this irreversible and inevitable process, Sunday will be just like any other shopping day. Our people do not want that. They recognise the effect on shop workers and their families. On any analysis, there will be greater pressures on family life
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  as a result of the measure. Many Conservative Members realise that the disintegration of family life today is a major cause of the increase in crime.
  There need not be the absolute of extreme Sabbatarianism, which no one could seriously suggest. There are enormous anomalies in the law, but there must be a middle way. It is shown by virtually all our continental competitors. They all have laws which, in different ways, add certain reasonable restrictions to Sunday trading. For example in certain holiday areas restrictions are lifted. As a patron of the Keep Sunday Special Campaign, with the right hon. Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine), who has played a distinguished part in it, I believe that the law can be tidied up, for example by extending the list of permitted goods, to ensure that some of the more obvious anomalies are done away with. If the Government persist in this absolute free-for-all, they will do so at their peril because they will override the deep instincts of many of our people.
  This is a bad Bill. I suspect that the Government's movement today on the free vote and the absence of a guillotine has been enough to lure the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack) into the trap. The Government may now be seeking a way out, and may have begun to realise the forces that they have unleashed. This is not the way to proceed on a matter of such importance, which affects our people as it does. The Government should have sought a middle way. Such a way can be found. They ignore that possibility at their peril. This is a bad Bill in principle and should be stopped at this stage.
  10.53 pm
  Mr. Charles Irving: I have sat through all five hours of the debate and it is sometimes sad that one must reduce one's speech, which has taken a good deal of work, to a minute or two. One appreciates that most points have been made, but one thing comes from the patient listening and that is that there is no simple solution to this problem.
  The Bill brings to the fore deeply held views of liberty, freedom, religion and conscience. Many hon. Members, including me, hold strong conflicting views. I regret having to say to my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General that I think that considerable offence was caused by placing a three-line Whip on Second Reading. That offence was caused to millions outside the House who thought we—sensible people on matters of conscience at least it is to be hoped—should have been accorded at least the privilege of having a conscience vote and a free vote.
  Everyone to whom I have spoken shares the view that the current hotch-potch of legislation governing Sunday trading is a total and complete mess and entirely inappropriate to modern-day life. However, over the years we have noticed a gradual growth in Sunday trading and the commercialisation of Sunday. By and large, this is happening outside the law and without the common consent of the people. Would it not be logical if this unhappy Bill went to Third Reading without any changes and that many groups, apart from those to which we have referred already, had to work on Sunday? Many groups have a responsibility for supervision — for example, county and borough council officers, environmental health officers and environmental health departments. There would have to be a considerable increase in policing.
  Mr. Denis Howell: What about the House of Commons Refreshment Department?
  Mr. Irving: Indeed, if the Bill is enacted, perhaps the House should sit on Sunday. After all, we accord to ourselves privileges and special facilities that are illegal outside the House. Why should we treat ourselves differently from anyone else?
  I can enjoy the crowds and the bustle of town-centre shopping during the many opportunities that there are for late evening shopping, or on Saturday, and equally I enjoy the peace and quiet of Sunday, like millions of others. I shall be sad indeed if that day disappears. If that happens, our Sunday will be transformed into a Saturday.
  Sunday is very special for religious reasons and many others. Whatever days or hours are freely available to the public to shop—I should explain that I have been in the licensed trade and the hotel trade all my life—we can be certain that there is only the same amount of money in most people's pockets which they can spend. The cost of Sunday opening with total deregulation would be high and someone would have to pay. The cost would fall on customers and unfortunately some of them do not seem to realise that at present.
  I do not find it offensive that one or two of the supermarkets open on Sunday in the town where I live, and I do not think others do. We do not find it offensive that the local corner shop is open. The fact that it is open is a good thing, for it provides great help and service.
  Some supporters of the Bill seem to draw conclusions that are rather ridiculous. What worries me and many others is that there will be enormous pressure on small business men, shops and those who work in them. When I read the Bill I was interested to see that there would be protection for those asked to work on Sunday. I do not think that that protection has been adequately displayed. Only one person in 25 under the present system of industrial tribunals has been enabled to regain his job after being unfairly dismissed, even though he has won his case. If that is the sort of protection that the Bill will give to those who will be forced to work on Sunday, that is not good enough. Let it be realised that if someone is asked, prior to commencing employment, to work on Sunday under the terms of his contract and he says no, he will not get the job, and that is that.
  I have strong feelings about the effect of this proposed legislation on small shopkeepers. They form a section of the community which has been under pressure from the large hypermarkets and supermarkets for over 20 years. Sadly, many of the small personal shopkeepers have been forced out of business. I fear that such legislation will accelerate the decline. They already work extremely long hours. They cannot do more. They are already unpaid tax collectors and now we will impose yet further burdens upon them. I thought that the party I belong to was in favour of supporting small businesses and the small shopkeeper.
  My concern is deep. I recognise that the small shopkeeper provides a range of services for our community far beyond that of providing just emergency top-up shopping. As a former chairman of social services I know the extraordinary things that happen in small communities. The small shopkeeper is a focal point in our lives. He provides a unique service to the old, infirm and disabled. He is often the first to express concern about the well-being of his customers and initiates action to bring
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  support to the ill and disadvantaged. Ask any doctor, health worker or social worker about the value of that role. The possible decline of the small shopkeeper would be an incalculable loss to the country and perhaps sufficient reason to oppose the Bill as it now stands.
  There is a strong feeling that the law should be amended to eliminate most of the anomolies to take into account the genuine needs of a modern consumer society. However, such revisions deemed necessary should take into account the religious and social conditions as well as the economic considerations of workers and consumers alike.
  I would support, and I think that there is some feeling on this in the country, the licensing committees in local communities deciding matters for their own communities. The machinery is there. It would be easy for them to do that. Even although there is a three-line Whip, I shall be voting against the Bill.
  11.2 pm
  Mr. Alfred Dubs: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to acid instead thereof:
  "this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which fails to have regard to the principles and conscience of those who wish to preserve the special character of Sunday, and which fails to protect adequately the interests of those workers who will be detrimentally affected by it."
  It has been a good debate, with differences of opinion on both sides of the House. Before I turn to the main issues to which the Bill gives rise I should like to speak about the Government's approach to the Bill
  The way in which the Government have handled the matter is, at the very least, novel, and, at the most, in one or two respects, breaking parliamentary precedents. The Home Secretary developed a new doctrine of what the Second Reading of a Bill is about. He said that the purpose of Second Reading is just to clear away the old legislation, that in effect we are not really voting on anything at all except to clear the ground, and then the Committee can get down to the work.
  I know that the Home Secretary has been here much longer than I have, but I question whether he has the doctrine right. "Erskine May" says on page 528:
  "The second reading is the most important stage through which the Bill is required to pass; for its whole principle is then at issue".
  The "whole principle" of total deregulation is before us today. I do not think that any fudge by the Home Secretary as to what Second Reading has traditionally been about will convince many hon. Members—in fact, I doubt whether it will convince any—that we should somehow ignore the fact that we are debating and voting on the key point of principle.
  The second rather original approach is that there is to be a three-line Whip for Conservative Members, followed by a free vote on the later stages, up to, but probably not including, the Third Reading debate. As far as I can discover, there are no precedents for that approach. Of course, a great deal depends upon the composition of the Committee. We all know that if the Committee is to reflect fairly the speeches that have been made tonight it wall be balanced evenly, or perhaps slightly against the Bill. Therefore, it depends very much on how Conservative Members decide to vote. If tonight's votes are a reflection of the speeches, we shall genuinely have a Committee that will be able to act independently of the Government.

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  The third interesting and somewhat novel point is that the Home Secretary gave the House an absolute assurance that there would be no guillotine on the Bill. I welcome that, but I do not know whether there are any precedents for a Minister announcing at the beginning of a Second Reading debate that there will be no guillotine later. We certainly welcome that, and we look forward to free and full debate at all stages.
  Mr. Stanbrook: Has the hon. Gentleman seen the statement on the tapes this evening that the Government have explained their position by saying that they will not introduce a guillotine, but, that they will not stop any Government Member from introducing it?
  Mr. Dubs: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I had not seen the tapes. However, I doubt whether many hon. Members on either side of the House will let the Government get away with that. It seemed to me that we were given a clear commitment, and if that commitment means anything, the Government will have to stick by the words that they expressed.
  Mr. Kevin McNamara: It was said explicitly on the BBC news this evening that, although the Home Secretary had given that undertaking, it did not prevent Government Whips from moving the closure.
  Mr. Dubs: Perhaps the Home Secretary would care to clarify that—
  Hon. Members: Come on.
  Mr. Sheerman: The right hon. Gentleman made the promise.
  Mr. Dubs: It seems that we are not to be told, at least not for some time yet. All I say is that it comes ill, at the end of a debate when there have been many speeches about deeply felt moral principles, that we should have such a statement on the tapes. I hope that the Paymaster General will deny what is said on the tapes and stick by the words of the Home Secretary.
  The next point of curiosity is that we are offered the Special Standing Committee procedure. I welcome that, because hitherto we have asked for that procedure on other Bills and been told that it does not apply to matters of controversy. Nevertheless, that is welcome, although it has come in a curious way.
  Another novel point is that many Ministers are against the Bill. Some are saying publicly that they will have to vote for the Bill, although privately and personally they are against it. The Home Secretary himself— it is no secret—is not at all enthusiastic about the Bill, as his speech made clear, and as we have all suspected for a long time.
  The Bill has in it the seeds of fairly long debates in Committee, so it is surprising that the Government are proceeding fairly slowly so late in the parliamentary Session. I wonder whether the Government really want to get the Bill through at all, but no doubt they will deny that.
  Who wants the Bill anyway? That is the main question that we should ask. There has been no outburst of feeling in favour of the Bill, and there is enormous strength of opinion up and down the country against what the Bill is about. I know that one of the Ministers talked about some petitions. I have not seen the evidence of those petitions,
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  but I am pretty satisfied, and I think every hon. Member who reads his mail will be, that the overwhelming majority of the people who have a strong opinion are saying, "We do not want the Bill at all." That is the message that is coming through clearly to every one of us. If anybody has been to public meetings in his constituency, he will know the strength of feeling that there is against the measure.
  We also know that most retailers—not all—do not want the Bill. Virtually all shop workers do not. The Churches do not. The trade unions do not. Of course we do not want to leave things as they are and we agree that there are anomalies in the legislation as it is stands at present, but that does not mean that we must have total deregulation. Indeed, not one hon. Member has tonight said that there must not be no changes. Those hon. Members who are most passionately opposed to deregulation have said that there will have to be reform of the existing legislation, but the Bill is not the way to go about that.
  I should now like to consider the question of the free vote. It is clear that a majority of people in the country and, I am satisfied, a majority of hon. Members in the House, would have liked there to be a free vote. I should like to repeat the Labour party's attitude to this. We have said all along that if the Government Whips give their Members a free vote, we will give ours a free vote. It is too much to expect the Government to have a three-line Whip and for the Labour party to have a free vote. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] If the Government, who are introducing the Bill, insist on Whipping their Members on a three-liner, it is unreasonable to ask that we should not be Whipped in the same way.
  I should now like to consider the substance of the arguments agaist the Bill. The first argument, which was mentioned by many people, is the belief that we do not want to turn our backs on a traditional Sunday — a Sunday that is not a wholly commercial day. For some it is a matter of individual and deeply felt religious views. Some people respect the religious views of others. Others do not want a Sunday that has been totally commercialised in the way that many hon. Members described Good Friday as having being commercialised in recent years.
  Some hon. Members referred to the position in Scotland, and the Auld report mentioned the position there. In paragraph 243 it stated:
  "The most frequently cited example is Scotland…But the pattern of Sunday opening in England and Wales under deregulation would not necessarily be the same. Scotland is a predominantly rural country, with few large shopping centres outside Edinburgh and Glasgow—"
  [Interruption.] I am quoting from the Auld report. I do not know on what basis the Auld report came to its conclusions, but I was simply quoting what the report said about Scotland. The report said:
  "Scotland is predominantly a rural country with few large shopping centres outside Edinburgh and Glasgow, and with more strongly rooted religious traditions of Sunday observance. Moreover, many of its larger shops are operated by companies whose headquarters are in England. Some may have remained shut on Sunday because their English based managements have geared all their retailing to their trading patterns south of the border. Hitherto a combination of these factors may have limited the degree of Sunday opening in Scotland. Deregulation of opening hours in England and Wales might prompt a new look at Sunday trading there as well."
  In traditional parlance, the continental Sunday is a bit of a myth, because many European countries have regulations about Sunday shopping. In France, Sunday

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  opening is effectively restricted. In Belgium, traders must close one day a week. There are restrictions on Sunday trading in the Netherlands, and in West Germany trading is restricted except for certain goods, and shops are closed on Saturday afternoons as well. In Italy, Sunday trading is strictly prohibited. In Luxembourg, shops may stay open until 1 pm on Sundays, and in Austria, non-food shops are closed for the weekend. There are restrictions on Sunday shopping in Australia, Denmark, Switzerland and New Zealand. It is true that there is deregulation in Sweden, but even in that country six members of a monitoring committee of 10 have recommended the reintroduction of legal restrictions on Sunday trading. There is no strong sign from any of those countries of serious difficulties in enforcing the law. So much for those who say that it would be impossible to enforce regulations on Sunday trading in Britain.
  Some hon. Members have said, "What are you fussing about? It is entirely voluntary. The shops can decide and the shoppers can decide." But, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame J. Knight) said, one person's freedom is a denial of another person's freedom. No matter how much we say that this will be voluntary, many hon. Members know that it will in practice not be voluntary for shop workers and their families. Those who start working in shops after the Bill becomes law—if it gets that far—will be obliged to work on Sundays. They are a weak and vulnerable group of people whose freedom is threatened by the legislation. Furthermore, we must consider the freedom of those who live near to many shops. Shop workers are vulnerable and badly paid. The vast majority of them are women, and many of them work part time.
  Some hon. Members have referred to the Auld report's comments on wages councils. Paragraph 296 states:
  "We strongly urge the retention for retail workers of the machinery of the Wages Councils for the fixing and proper enforcement of satisfactory wages and premium rates."
  The Auld report said, "Let us keep the wages councils as protection for shop workers as a condition of deregulation." The majority of retail workers — two thirds of them—are women, and 60 per cent. of them work part time. Many children of school age work part time in shops. In 1984 the Wages Council Inspectorate visited shops and in 40 per cent. of the retail premises visited it discovered the illegal underpayment of one or more workers. A somewhat depleted wages inspectorate discovered that, and more of the protection that it provides will be removed by the Government. Shop workers are badly paid. According to the earnings survey of 1985, 42 per cent. of male full-time workers earned less than £100 a week, while 82 per cent. of women earned less than £100 a week. They were earning about half the average wage of about £171 a week.
  What about the effect on the family? Many of the women working in shops are mothers of children under the age of 16. Their Sundays and their family lives will be affected. It is not just a matter of Sundays. Deregulation will mean that there will be no restrictions on shopping hours on other days of the week. That will be a heavy burden on shop workers, and it will affect the environment.
  On the economic effects of total deregulation, the Auld report carries a research study which suggests a loss of 20,000 full-time jobs as a result of deregulation because of the shift from weekdays to Sundays. We shall need
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  more shop workers on Sundays, but there will be a loss of shop workers on weekdays. It is most unlikely that the amount of goods sold will increase. It is hard to believe that people wish to spend some of their money shopping and do not have the time or the opportunity to do so. The alternative is that the people spend their money on other things and would switch to spending money in the shops. Again, that is most unlikely. Any sensible economic analysis would suggest little, if any, change in the total amount spent in shops, but there are likely to be higher retailing costs because the costs of running shops will have to be spread over seven days instead of over five and a half or six days as at present.
  It is argued that this is voluntary for retailers. Every hon. Member has been told that retailers do not want total deregulation, but that they will feel obliged to keep their shops open because of competitive pressures if this measure goes through. We have seen what happened on Good Fridays, and we know that it will happen on Sundays.
  Over the years there has been an enormous decline in the number of small shops. On every street corner shops have disappeared in recent years. Let me quote some figures from the Auld report. We do not have precise figures according to shop size, but between 1950 and 1982 the number of independent retailers decreased from 500,000 to 260,000. We can assume that the majority were small shops. The number of people employed in retailing as a whole during that period declined by about 200,000. The number of people employed in independent shops during that period fell from 1,800,000 to 1,100,000. We all know what will happen if we have deregulation—the multiples will open on Sundays, and more small, independent shops will go to the wall and be driven out of business.
  Some people will say, "That is all very well. We can all use the multiples. What does it matter?" Many people do not have motor cars and cannot get to the large multiples and the supermarkets with their car parks. What about the elderly who are dependent on the short walk to the small corner shop? Many of them have already told us that the closure of independent shops has made their lives more difficult. How much more difficult will their lives be made by this legislation? We would also argue that the elderly should be free to do their shopping in their own localities, without the need to be dependent on someone with a motor car to help them with their shopping activities.
  Mr. Bill Walker: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that even though supermarkets and other large shops open in Scotland on Sundays, there are still many small shops in existence which carry out their traditional function of providing service where the public want it?
  Mr. Dubs: That view flies in the face of all the economic analyses of shopping in England and Wales. We all know that the threat to the existence of the small, independent shopkeeper will be aggravated if the Bill goes through, and those of us who care about our local communities and the elderly who live there are fearful of the consequences.
  What about the rights of people who live in shopping areas? What about the rights of those who are used to a bit of peace and quiet on a Sunday and in the evenings?

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  If this measure goes through, shops that were given planning permission years ago will be allowed to cause disturbance and mayhem to local people who have the misfortune to live nearby. We should not turn our backs on the rights and freedom of such people.
  What about the problems of car parking in shopping areas, the noise of traffic and congestion? What about the burdens on the police and parking meter attendants? What about the burdens on local authorities which clear the refuse?
  Mr. Gerald Howarth: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Dubs: No, I will not. Will we say that such burdens do not matter, that we do not care about them and that if people have the misfortune to live near a shopping centre, bad luck? Their lives will be disturbed, their Sundays will not be peaceful and they will have no choice at all.
  Some years ago, some shops received planning permission from local authorities. Had the local authorities and local people known that this measure would go through, not all of those stores would have been given planning permission. The Government are saying, "Never mind about the care taken by local authorities. Forget it. Forget the care that they tried to show for people. It does not matter at all." The Bill will upset many people. It will upset people who have deeply held principles about Sunday, whether those principles are based on religion or simply on a widely held feeling that one day ought to be a quieter, more tranquil, more relaxed day than the rest.
  Of course we can say, "Let us shop 24 hours a day, seven days a week," but if we go down that path this country will be the poorer. The quality of life in many of our communities will be poorer and many people will feel that we have let them down. Those people have the right to live the way that they have lived for many years. They did not ask for their lives to be disrupted, nor did they ask for their environment to be disturbed.
  There are about 2 million people working in our retail trades, but few of them work on Sundays. As I have said, they are lowly paid and not strongly organised into trade unions, because it is clearly difficult for them to be so organised when they work in such a variety of small establishments. They are people upon whom we depend for six days of the week. We know that whatever safeguards the Government say there are in the Bill for people who are currently employed, they will be vulnerable to pressure if the shops in which they work decide to open seven days a week. They may well turn to the legislation and say that they are not obliged to work, but they will be in a weak position and will feel pressurised and coerced.
  We know that a large number of people work part time and that there is a high turnover of workers in the retail trade. New people coming in will not have rights, when they look for jobs they will be told, "It is Sunday working, or else, for you. Never mind what Parliament said, and never mind about your rights of conscience. You will have to work on Sundays." I know that some people already work on Sundays, but is that a reason for saying that more people should be compelled to work on Sundays? Surely we do not want to go that far. Surely we do not believe that the rights of those people do not matter.
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  We in the Labour party are against the Bill for two main reasons. The first is the character of the traditional Sunday, our opposition to its total commercialisation and our belief that the view of minorities, who may be religious minorities, should be respected. Secondly, the rights of shop workers should be respected. They have rights and we should pay attention to them. I am certain that if the House were to have a free vote the majority of hon. Members would oppose the Bill. That has come out clearly tonight and in the period preceding this debate. I am disappointed that the Government, knowing that they are landed with something that they are unhappy about, did not say, "Let us have a free vote." By saying that they would get themselves off the hook and show respect for the views and principles of many of their hon. Friends. The people of this country know and are sorry about what the Government have done. They are telling the House that hon. Members should vote according to their beliefs and forget the Whip.
  11.29 pm
  The Paymaster General and Minister for Employment (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): The hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. Dubs) gave a clear account of why he is against the Bill, and why he will vote against it, but at no stage did he, any more than the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) state what he was in favour of. I suspect that he is not in favour of the Shops Act 1950. That is a relevant point because we have to look at the consequences of the vote that the House will be asked to make at midnight.
  Mr. James Callaghan: I apologise to the Minister. However, before he gets into his stride, I wish to ask him a question. The House was astonished to hear the comment by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) to the effect that, although the Home Secretary had given the House a voluntary undertaking that there would be no guillotine, the Government propose to treat the House with contempt by getting someone else to move a motion that the Government would accept.
  Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: That cannot be true.
  Mr. Callaghan: I cannot believe that the Leader of the House, who has a good reputation, would allow such a gross contempt to take place. I hope that the Minister will give us a clear assurance that this allegation is not true.
  Mr. Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman will not rely for his information on the tapes. He will know that it is not possible for anyone to move a guillotine on a Bill other than a Minister of the Crown. I hope that he will allow me to deal with the rather important matter of how the Bill is to be handled.
  The Opposition have their members under a three-line Whip as well. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) made a speech in favour of the Bill, and then, with some difficulty, found reasons why he would be voting against it, which showed that both sides are under a three-line Whip.
  It is appropriate to consider how we shall handle the Bill.
  Mr. Kaufman: Answer the question.
  Mr. Clarke: Of course I shall answer the point made by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Callaghan), but I must be allowed to make my speech.
  Mr. Kaufman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is impossible for the House to come to a view on the Bill without a clear statement from the Paymaster General that the promise of the Home Secretary that there will be no guillotine on the Bill will be kept. If that promise is to be kept, the Paymaster General can solve the problem by saying so.
  Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have sat through every minute of this long debate, which has been based on the premise that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will keep his promise. It will be an outrage to the House if he does not intend to do so.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The Paymaster General has been speaking for less than five minutes and must be allowed to make his own speech.
  Mr. Clarke: I shall not go back on what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said. However, if the House allows me, I shall explain carefully how the Government propose to handle the Bill, which deals with a serious matter. The right hon. Member for Gorton has just returned to the Chamber after hours of absence.
  Mr. Kaufman rose—
  Mr. Clarke: No—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Only one hon. Member at a time.
  Mr. Kaufman rose—
  Mr. Clarke rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The Paymaster General.
  Mr. Clarke: Neither side of the House will be helped if I am not allowed to explain how the Bill will be handled. I have already made it clear that I shall not go back on what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said and he has no intention of doing so. This is an absurd way in which to start—based on information on the tapes.
  This is not an unusual situation. I have had three jobs in the present Government and it has been my fate that during that time I have had to handle legislation on the compulsory wearing of seat belts and on the addition of fluoride to the drinking water supply in Britain. Now I find myself with the privilege of dealing with the reform of Sunday trading. I am not regretting my fate, because they are all particularly interesting Bills, especially in the way in which the House of Commons approaches them.
  The compulsory wearing of seat belts was taken on a Transport Bill backed by a three-line Whip by the Government on Second and Third Reading. The question whether we should have compulsory wearing of seat belts was handled on a free vote in which everybody on both sides of the House, including Ministers of the Crown, voted in both directions.
  The Water (Fluoridation) Bill was carried on a free vote on Second Reading, and, as I well recall, the result of that was to empty the Chamber for many happy hours and some of us then carried it through thereafter. The Bill was carried on a free vote but with members of the Government accepting the advice of my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary.
  690
  On this occasion the Government are applying a three-line Whip on Second Reading for reasons which I shall go on to describe in a moment, just as the major Opposition party is applying a three-line Whip. Then we shall adopt the Special Standing Committee procedure, which, as the hon. Member for Battersea conceded, is the first time that that has been done for a Bill of this controversial nature. We have given the clearest undertaking that amendments in Committee will be subject to a free vote and by that I mean a free vote for all Members of the House, including members of the Government. [Interruption.]
  I am asked why we impose a three-line Whip at this stage and to ensure that it is necessary to remind the House how we got here. First, the Government began with the proposition—[Interruption.]—that the present law was unenforceable. The absurd nature of the law has not been defended by any hon. Member on either side throughout the day. It is the state of the law that has led me while I have been in the House to take the opportunity from time to time to vote for repeal of the Shops Act.
  I do not need to tell hon. Members on either side about the present state of the law under the Shops Act 1950 and I shall not spend my time, certainly given the number of interruptions I am getting, reminding people of the fact that fish and chip shops can sell any food but fish and chips; they can be brought only from a railway station. — [Interruption.] I take it from that that there are no defenders of the present law, but, as we know, because of changing social practice, a growing number of shops has been opening illegally — small shops, corner shops, Aslan shops, garden centres, do-it-yourself shops. I would expect—I hazard a guess, I have no research—that the vast majority of hon. Members have at some time or another shopped in a shop that was trading illegally under the Shops Act.
  Mr. Roger Gale rose—
  Mr. Clarke: I apologise to my hon. Friend. I shall not give way because time was taken by bizarre knockabout stuff at the start.
  The Government set up the Auld committee, which made recommendations to deal with deregulation. We have taken the Bill through another place, which amended it somewhat. The Bill went through the House of Lords where the Government do not have an automatic majority — certainly not against the combined forces of the Opposition and the Cross Benches.
  After years of preparation and consideration we believe that we are entitled to ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading to enable it to proceed. All kinds of compromises can be considered. Some of those compromises are pressed upon us by my right hon. and hon. Friends, as well as by Opposition Members. We have examined them, but we cannot see a compromise which is workable, or which we are sure will command a majority in any sector, including the House. For that reason we ask the House, with the usual Whip that Governments apply to such a measure, to give the Bill a Second Reading, to go into the unique Special Standing Committee procedure and to follow that by free votes on the principle of the amendments.
  Mr. Gale: I have listened to the debate for eight hours. I am as convinced now as when the debate started that the principle of the Bill is abhorrent to me and to many of my

  691
  hon. Friends. Can my right hon. and learned Friend tell me—yes or no—whether the Front Bench is committed to complete deregulation?
  Mr. Clarke: We are presenting a Bill which represents a measure of deregulation which has so far—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] So far we are satisfied, as was the Auld committee when it considered all the alternatives, that no one has suggested a practical alternative.
  We propose that the Standing Committee should begin by taking evidence, under the special Standing Committee procedure, from each and every interest group and then, on a free vote, decide—as the House will on Report—the conclusion to which it wishes to come.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale) may think that that is not satisfactory for resolving this difficult matter, but I have not heard a better procedure urged upon the Government today. The effect of rejecting the Second Reading will be to go back to the 1950 Act, which has no friends and will not be enforced.
  I never thought that a Government would introduce a Bill on Sunday trading, because the usual procedure is for an hon. Member to deal with such matters. If this Second Reading is rejected we shall be stuck with the unenforceable 1950 Act, with a steady increase in Sunday trading throughout the country. It will be many a long year before we have this chance again.
  How are we to handle the timetabling of the Bill? Unless we have some structure and order in our debates it is possible for a handful of hon. Members to protract any legislation—[Interruption.] A Bill in favour of muddle could be talked out by an hon. Member who was determined enough if there were no rules of procedure or conduct. The Government's undertaking is that they will allow a free vote for their supporters—members of Government and Back Benchers. Of course the Opposition will also allow a free vote. However, that freedom has never extended to procedural motions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It has never extended to procedural motions such as closures.—[Interruption.] I apologise to the Opposition for the fact that they have been labouring under a misapprehension. I could tell when the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) was speaking that he expected an extremely protracted Committee stage. I am not saying anything now that all hon. Members do not already know.
  Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Did the Home Secretary know?
  Mr. Clarke: My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made no reference whatever to a closure.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order! Not three at a time.
  Mr. Clarke: Those hon. Members who wish to get indignant about the matter should reflect that, if it were not possible for the Government to ask its supporters to carry even procedural motions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine) could talk out the Bill singlehandedly, as I know from experience. Not only tactics have led to the conclusion I have reached. It is plainly impossible for the Government ever to say that on a Government Bill there will never be any whipping on closures, naming of Members, and so on.
  692
  I ask hon. Members to consider all those people outside the House who feel strongly about this Bill. The House owes the public and itself a duty to have a sensible, structured debate. I do not believe that any person outside who feels strongly about measures before us is very impressed by the kind of debate in which one hon. Member keeps things going for hours by repetition. There will be whipping from the Government on procedural motions, and I do not believe that any Labour hon. Member could seriously expect anything else.
  Mr. Kaufman: Whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his colleagues keep their promise of a free vote to their own hon. Friends is a matter between them and their hon. Friends. In fact, the Paymaster General is saying that they intend to break that promise. However, the promise made by the Home Secretary to this House, that throughout the debate on this Bill there would be no guillotine, is a promise to the whole House. Let us therefore have no ifs and buts. Will the Paymaster General now assure us clearly and categorically that throughout the passage of the Bill no guillotine will be imposed on the proceedings?
  Mr. Clarke: Yes, of course. I have already done so three times.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Clarke: It is no good hon. Members getting up because they do not like the answer. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said earlier today, the Government have no plan to introduce a guillotine motion. The right hon. Member for Gorton knows the procedures of this House as well as most hon. Members. He knows what a guillotine means. A guillotine means a timetable motion, laying down a timetable at which each stage is taken. It is a well-honoured procedure which was introduced to beat Irish obstruction, and it has been used by successive Governments since. We have no plans to do that. We are proposing to follow the course that has been described—to invite the House to give the Bill a Second Reading and to submit it to the Special Standing Committee procedure, allowing a free vote on amendments of principle and on Report. If the House responds to the evident public need to resolve the problems of the inherent ridiculousness of our Sunday trading laws, we should be able to have a reasoned and measured debate which reaches a conclusion.
  Of course the Government must reserve the right, if individual hon. Members do not like the way in which the Bill is going at any stage—they might be absolute deregulators who do not like the compromises or absolute Sabbatarians who will not accept any change—and try to hold it up, to have closures to enable the House to reach a proper conclusion.
  Mr. Walter Harrison: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Clarke: No. The Government believe that that is a process which will enable the House to reach a considered judgment on the future nature of Sunday trading law. We do not propose a timetable motion to guide the House. Should a small group of individuals, who could be hard-core deregulators or hard-core Sabbatarians filibuster and seek to prevent the House from reaching any conclusion in the exercise of its free judgment, and the House was near some form of consensus of conclusion, the

  693
  House would start to say that a handful of individuals should not be allowed to prevent the House from coming to a conclusion.
  Mr. Kaufman: There are two things about which we must be clear. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that a timetable lays down stages by which a Bill should proceed. A timetable, a guillotine—
  Mr. Clarke: A timetable motion.
  Mr. Kaufman: A timetable motion. The right hon. and learned Gentleman should study Standing Orders. A guillotine is a timetable. A timetable motion — a guillotine—also sets a terminal date. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman giving the House a categorical assurance that no guillotine motion setting a terminal date for completion of the Bill will be moved?
  Mr. Clarke: The Government have no plans to introduce such a guillotine motion. If the right hon. Gentleman was as familiar with Standing Orders as he claims, he would know the difference between a guillotine and a closure, and we would not have spent so much time on this filibustering nonsense.
  Mr. James Callaghan: I am obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. I do not think that any of us have to be here very long before we know the difference between a closure and a guillotine. I speak for myself, but I cannot conceive of a Government proceeding without moving a closure at certain intervals. That is not the point that I put to the right hon. and learned Gentleman at the beginning. He could have disposed of the matter straight away and saved himself a lot of trouble and publicity.
  I understand that I speak with the agreement of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook). The Government will not move a guillotine, but they will not perhaps resist a movement by hon. Members from any part of the House to put down a motion calling on the Government to introduce a guillotine. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give me a clear undertaking? It would be twisting the House, in view of what the Home Secretary said—and I do not believe that the Leader of the House would do it—if, having given the House a pledge, the Government failed to resist any attempt to move a motion that called on them to introduce a guillotine.
  Mr. Clarke: I have already given the undertaking that the Government have no plans to introduce the guillotine. That is the position from which we started. We obviously trust that the guillotine will not be required. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No one except a Minister of the Crown can move a guillotine motion, and no Minister of the Crown intends to introduce such a motion.
  As the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth, who is slightly nearer to the real point than to the synthetic ones, will appreciate, the House may reach the stage where it wishes to come to a conclusion. The right hon. Gentleman wants me to say that the Government will guarantee that, even if the House as a whole wishes to bring proceedings to a conclusion, we will not agree. He is giving any individual hon. Member the right, in effect, to obstruct the Bill.
  We are glad that the Ulster Unionist Members are back in their place. Let me postulate one theory. The House could be agreed that a measure that had passed through
  694
  Committee and Report stages was a desirable improvement on the present law in England and Wales. If I gave the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth the guarantee he seeks, it would be open to the Ulster Unionist Members to talk out the legislation—although I am sure that they would not — relying on the Government's guarantee that we would never, in response to any pressure, introduce a timetable motion. Speeches about the General Belgrano, let alone other matters, could keep us here until Christmas, if I gave such a guarantee.
  Mr. James Callaghan rose—
  Mr. Clarke: We have given the most reasonable arrangement I can recall a Government proposing to help us make progress over an aspect of law which the vast majority of hon. Members have known for years to be nonsense, and we now have the chance to consider it carefully in Committee.
  Mr. Callaghan: As someone who has been a Member for 41 years—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] Perhaps. I want to say that if the Government accept such a motion, it will be the shabbiest trick I have ever seen.
  Mr. Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman is sitting behind a Front Bench whose only proposal for making progress in this matter is that we should have a conference. Apart from that, the right hon. Member for Gorton had no proposition. He did not say what the Labour party would say to that conference. It is obvious that the Opposition's position is opportunist, just as it is obvious that the Government's position gives the House the best chance it has ever had of reforming Sunday trading laws so that we have laws that are respected and enforceable and so that we can come to a reasonable conclusion.
  I think that the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth, a former Prime Minister, had prepared his conclusion before he tried his first intervention. I always find it difficult to attack him, because his fiddling of the Boundary Commission's proposals brought me into Parliament. He would have abolished my seat if he had not delayed, and I was elected in 1970. Therefore, I shall wait a long time to hear him accuse me of shabby tricks. He seeks to denigrate the most sensible proposal that we have to make progress on this important matter. If it is rejected now, we shall live with the Shops Act 1950 for a further 20 years, and then return to another muddle of this sort.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:-
  The House divided: Ayes 227, Noes 279

  Division No. 140]

  [12 midnight

  AYES

  Abse, Leo

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Alton, David

  Blair, Anthony

  Anderson, Donald

  Boothroyd, Miss Betty

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Boyes, Roland

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E)

  Ashton, Joe

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)

  Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N)

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

  Barnett, Guy

  Buchan, Norman

  Barron, Kevin

  Caborn, Richard

  Beckett, Mrs Margaret

  Callaghan, Rt Hon J.

  Beggs, Roy

  Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

  Beith, A. J.

  Campbell, Ian

  Bell, Stuart

  Campbell-Savours, Dale

  Benn, Rt Hon Tony

  Canavan, Dennis

  Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

  Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)

  695

  Cartwright, John

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Clarke, Thomas

  Kennedy, Charles

  Clay, Robert

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Clelland, David Gordon

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Lambie, David

  Cohen, Harry

  Lamond, James

  Coleman, Donald

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Conlan, Bernard

  Leighton, Ronald

  Cook, Frank (Stockton North)

  Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

  Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)

  Litherland, Robert

  Corbett, Robin

  Livsey, Richard

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Craigen, J. M.

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Crowther, Stan

  Loyden, Edward

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  McCrea, Rev William

  Cunningham, Dr John

  McCusker, Harold

  Dalyell, Tam

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

  McGuire, Michael

  Davies, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'I)

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Deakins, Eric

  McKelvey, William

  Dewar, Donald

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Dixon, Donald

  Maclennan, Robert

  Dobson, Frank

  McNamara, Kevin

  Dormand, Jack

  McTaggart, Robert

  Douglas, Dick

  McWilliam, John

  Dubs, Alfred

  Madden, Max

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Maginnis, Ken

  Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

  Marek, Dr John

  Eadie, Alex

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Eastham, Ken

  Martin, Michael

  Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)

  Mason, Rt Hon Roy

  Ellis, Raymond

  Maxton, John

  Evans, John (St. Helens N)

  Maynard, Miss Joan

  Ewing, Harry

  Meacher, Michael

  Fatchett, Derek

  Meadowcroft, Michael

  Faulds, Andrew

  Michie, William

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)

  Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

  Fisher, Mark

  Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

  Flannery, Martin

  Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Forrester, John

  Mudd, David

  Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)

  Nellist, David

  Foster, Derek

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Foulkes, George

  O'Brien, William

  Fraser, J. (Norwood)

  O'Neill, Martin

  Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Freud, Clement

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Garrett, W. E.

  Paisley, Rev lan

  George, Bruce

  Park, George

  Godman, Dr Norman

  Patchett, Terry

  Golding, John

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Gould, Bryan

  Pendry, Tom

  Gourlay, Harry

  Penhaligon, David

  Hamilton, James (M'well N)

  Pike, Peter

  Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central)

  Powell, Rt Hon J. E.

  Hancock, Michael

  Prescott, John

  Hardy, Peter

  Randall, Stuart

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Raynsford, Nick

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Redmond, Martin

  Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

  Richardson, Ms Jo

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

  Haynes, Frank

  Robertson, George

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Rogers, Allan

  Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)

  Rooker, J. W.

  Home Robertson, John

  Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)

  Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

  Ross, Wm. (Londonderry E)

  Howells, Geraint

  Rowlands, Ted

  Hoyle, Douglas

  Ryman, John

  Hughes, Dr Mark (Durham)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Sheerman, Barry

  Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

  Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

  Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)

  Janner, Hon Greville

  Silkin, Rt Hon J.

  Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)

  696

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Walker, Cecil (Belfast N)

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E)

  Wallace, James

  Smyth, Rev W. M. (Belfast S)

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  Soley, Clive

  Wareing, Robert

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Weetch, Ken

  Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

  White, James

  Stott, Roger

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Strang, Gavin

  Williams, Rt Hon A.

  Straw, Jack

  Wilson, Gordon

  Taylor, Rt Hon John David

  Winnick, David

  Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

  Woodall, Alec

  Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)

  Thorne, Stan (Preston)

  Tellers for the Ayes

  Tinn, James

  Mr. Ron Davies and

  Torney, Tom

  Mr. Ray Powell.

  Wainwright, R.

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

  Aitken, Jonathan

  du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward

  Alexander, Richard

  Dunn, Robert

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Durant, Tony

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Dykes, Hugh

  Ancram, Michael

  Eggar, Tim

  Arnold, Tom

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Ashby, David

  Eyre, Sir Reginald

  Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)

  Fallon, Michael

  Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

  Farr, Sir John

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y)

  Favell, Anthony

  Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

  Fenner, Mrs Peggy

  Baldry, Tony

  Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Fletcher, Alexander

  Batiste, Spencer

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Bennett, Rt Hon Sir Frederic

  Forman, Nigel

  Best, Keith

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Forth, Eric

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Fox, Marcus

  Bottomley, Peter

  Franks, Cecil

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Fraser, Peter (Angus East)

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes

  Freeman, Roger

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Galley, Roy

  Bright, Graham

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Brinton, Tim

  Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)

  Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Brown, M. (Brigg & CI'thpes)

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Browne, John

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Gorst, John

  Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A.

  Gow, Ian

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Grist, Ian

  Budgen, Nick

  Ground, Patrick

  Butcher, John

  Grylls, Michael

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Gummer, Rt Hon John S

  Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)

  Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Cash, William

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Chalker, Mrs Lynda

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Chope, Christopher

  Hawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW)

  Churchill, W. S.

  Hawksley, Warren

  Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)

  Hayes, J.

  Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Barney

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Hayward, Robert

  Clegg, Sir Walter

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Cockeram, Eric

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Colvin, Michael

  Henderson, Barry

  Conway, Derek

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Coombs, Simon

  Hickmet, Richard

  Cope, John

  Hicks, Robert

  Corrie, John

  Hill, James

  Couchman, James

  Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Critchley, Julian

  Howard, Michael

  Crouch, David

  Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Hubbard-Miles, Peter

  697

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Price, Sir David

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Prior, Rt Hon James

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Proctor, K. Harvey

  Jackson, Robert

  Raffan, Keith

  Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

  Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Rathbone, Tim

  Jones, Robert (Herts W)

  Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)

  Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

  Renton, Tim

  King, Roger (B'ham N'field)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  King, Rt Hon Tom

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Knight, Greg (Derby N)

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Knowles, Michael

  Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

  Knox, David

  Robinson, Mark (N'port W)

  Lamont, Norman

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Lang, Ian

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Lawler, Geoffrey

  Rost, Peter

  Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

  Rowe, Andrew

  Lee, John (Pendle)

  Rumbold, Mrs Angela

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Ryder, Richard

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

  Lightbown, David

  St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

  Lilley, Peter

  Scott, Nicholas

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

  Luce, Rt Hon Richard

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  Lyell, Nicholas

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  McCrindle, Robert

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  McCurley, Mrs Anna

  Silvester, Fred

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Sims, Roger

  MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  Maclean, David John

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)

  Speed, Keith

  McQuarrie, Albert

  Speller, Tony

  Madel, David

  Spencer, Derek

  Major, John

  Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)

  Malone, Gerald

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Maples, John

  Squire, Robin

  Marland, Paul

  Stanley, Rt Hon John

  Marlow, Antony

  Steen, Anthony

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Stern, Michael

  Mayhew, Sir Patrick

  Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

  Mellor, David

  Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N)

  Merchant, Piers

  Stradling Thomas, Sir John

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Sumberg, David

  Miller, Hal (B'grove)

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Mills, Iain (Meriden)

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

  Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

  Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Thurnham, Peter

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Moore, Rt Hon John

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

  Tracey, Richard

  Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

  Trippier, David

  Moynihan, Hon C.

  Trotter, Neville

  Neale, Gerrard

  Twinn, Dr lan

  Needham, Richard

  Waddington, David

  Nelson, Anthony

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Neubert, Michael

  Waldegrave, Hon William

  Newton, Tony

  Walden, George

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Walker, Bill (T'side N)

  Normanton, Tom

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

  Norris, Steven

  Waller, Gary

  Onslow, Cranley

  Walters, Dennis

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Ward, John

  Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

  Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

  Osborn, Sir John

  Warren, Kenneth

  Ottaway, Richard

  Watson, John

  Page, Richard (Herts SW)

  Watts, John

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)

  Parris, Matthew

  Wheeler, John

  Patten, Christopher (Bath)

  Whitney, Raymond

  Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Wolfson, Mark

  Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Wood, Timothy

  Pollock, Alexander

  Woodcock, Michael

  Portillo, Michael

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Yeo, Tim

  Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  698

  Younger, Rt Hon George

  Mr. Carol Mather and

  Mr. Robert Boscawen.

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 41 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading):
  The House divided: Ayes 282, Noes 296.

  Division No. 141]

  [12.15

  AYES

  Adley, Robert

  Eyre, Sir Reginald

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Alexander, Richard

  Fallon, Michael

  Alison, Rt Hon Michael

  Farr, Sir John

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Favell, Anthony

  Ancram, Michael

  Fenner, Mrs Peggy

  Arnold, Tom

  Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

  Ashby, David

  Fletcher, Alexander

  Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)

  Forman, Nigel

  Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y)

  Forth, Eric

  Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

  Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

  Baldry, Tony

  Fox, Marcus

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Franks, Cecil

  Batiste, Spencer

  Fraser, Peter (Angus East)

  Bennett, Rt Hon Sir Frederic

  Freeman, Roger

  Best, Keith

  Freud, Clement

  Biffen, Rt Hon John

  Galley, Roy

  Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)

  Bottomley, Peter

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Brandon-Bravo, Martin

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Bright, Graham

  Gorst, John

  Brinton, Tim

  Gow, Ian

  Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

  Grist, Ian

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Ground, Patrick

  Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)

  Grylls, Michael

  Browne, John

  Gummer, Rt Hon John S

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

  Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A.

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Buck, Sir Antony

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Budgen, Nick

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Butcher, John

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)

  Hawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW)

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hawksley, Warren

  Cash, William

  Hayes, J.

  Chalker, Mrs Lynda

  Hayhoe, Rt Hon Barney

  Channon, Rt Hon Paul

  Hayward, Robert

  Chope, Christopher

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Churchill, W. S.

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)

  Henderson, Barry

  Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

  Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

  Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

  Hickmet, Richard

  Clegg, Sir Walter

  Hicks, Robert

  Cockeram, Eric

  Hill, James

  Colvin, Michael

  Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)

  Conway, Derek

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Coombs, Simon

  Howard, Michael

  Cope, John

  Howarth, Alan(Stratf'd-on-A)

  Corrie, John

  Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)

  Couchman, James

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hubbard-Miles, Peter

  Critchley, Julian

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Crouch, David

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

  Dickens, Geoffrey

  Jackson, Robert

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward

  Jones, Robert (Herts W)

  Dunn, Robert

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Durant, Tony

  Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

  Dykes, Hugh

  King, Roger (B'ham N'field)

  Eggar, Tim

  King, Rt Hon Tom

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Kirkwood, Archy

  699

  Knight, Greg (Derby N)

  Renton, Tim

  Knowles, Michael

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Knox, David

  Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

  Lamont, Norman

  Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

  Lang, Ian

  Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

  Lawler, Geoffrey

  Robinson, Mark (N'port W)

  Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Lee, John (Pendle)

  Rossi, Sir Hugh

  Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

  Rost, Peter

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Rowe, Andrew

  Lightbown, David

  Rumbold, Mrs Angela

  Lilley, Peter

  Ryder, Richard

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

  Luce, Rt Hon Richard

  St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

  Lyell, Nicholas

  Scott, Nicholas

  McCrindle, Robert

  Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

  McCurley, Mrs Anna

  Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

  MacGregor, Rt Hon John

  Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

  MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)

  Silvester, Fred

  MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)

  Sims, Roger

  Maclean, David John

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

  McQuarrie, Albert

  Soames, Hon Nicholas

  Madel, David

  Speed, Keith

  Major, John

  Speller, Tony

  Malone, Gerald

  Spencer, Derek

  Maples, John

  Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)

  Marland, Paul

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Marlow, Antony

  Squire, Robin

  Maude, Hon Francis

  Stanley, Rt Hon John

  Mayhew, Sir Patrick

  Steen, Anthony

  Mellor, David

  Stern, Michael

  Merchant, Piers

  Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N)

  Miller, Hal (B'grove)

  Stradling Thomas, Sir John

  Mills, Iain (Meriden)

  Sumberg, David

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

  Moore, Rt Hon John

  Thurnham, Peter

  Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

  Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

  Moynihan, Hon C.

  Tracey, Richard

  Neale, Gerrard

  Trippier, David

  Needham, Richard

  Trotter, Neville

  Nelson, Anthony

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Neubert, Michael

  Waddington, David

  Newton, Tony

  Wakeham, Rt Hon John

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Waldegrave, Hon William

  Normanton, Tom

  Walden, George

  Norris, Steven

  Walker, Bill (T'side N)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Waller, Gary

  Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

  Walters, Dennis

  Osborn, Sir John

  Ward, John

  Ottaway, Richard

  Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

  Page, Richard (Herts SW)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

  Watson, John

  Parris, Matthew

  Watts, John

  Patten, Christopher (Bath)

  Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)

  Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn)

  Wheeler, John

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Whitney, Raymond

  Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Pollock, Alexander

  Wolfson, Mark

  Portillo, Michael

  Wood, Timothy

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Woodcock, Michael

  Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Price, Sir David

  Yeo, Tim

  Prior, Rt Hon James

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Proctor, K. Harvey

  Younger, Rt Hon George

  Raffan, Keith

  Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Rathbone, Tim

  Mr. Carol Mather and

  Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)

  Mr. Robert Boscawen.

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Amess, David

  Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

  Anderson, Donald

  Alton, David

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  700

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Eadie, Alex

  Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

  Eastham, Ken

  Ashton, Joe

  Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Ellis, Raymond

  Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)

  Evans, John (St. Helens N)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Ewing, Harry

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Fatchett, Derek

  Barnett, Guy

  Faulds, Andrew

  Barron, Kevin

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)

  Beckett, Mrs Margaret

  Fisher, Mark

  Beggs, Roy

  Flannery, Martin

  Beith, A. J.

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Bell, Stuart

  Forrester, John

  Benn, Rt Hon Tony

  Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)

  Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

  Foster, Derek

  Benyon, William

  Foulkes, George

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Fraser, J. (Norwood)

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Fry, Peter

  Biggs-Davison, Sir John

  Gale, Roger

  Blackburn, John

  Garrett, W. E.

  Blair, Anthony

  George, Bruce

  Body, Sir Richard

  Godman, Dr Norman

  Boothroyd, Miss Betty

  Golding, John

  Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)

  Goodhart, Sir Philip

  Boyes, Roland

  Gould, Bryan

  Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

  Gourlay, Harry

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Gower, Sir Raymond

  Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E)

  Grant, Sir Anthony

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Greenway, Harry

  Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)

  Gregory, Conal

  Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N)

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)

  Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

  Hamilton, James (M'well N)

  Bruinvels, Peter

  Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central)

  Buchan, Norman

  Hancock, Michael

  Butler, Rt Hon Sir Adam

  Hannam, John

  Caborn, Richard

  Hardy, Peter

  Callaghan, Rt Hon J.

  Hargreaves, Kenneth

  Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Campbell, Ian

  Harris, David

  Campbell-Savours, Dale

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Canavan, Dennis

  Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

  Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)

  Harvey, Robert

  Carlisle, John (Luton N)

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Cartwright, John

  Hawkins, C. (High Peak)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

  Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

  Clarke, Thomas

  Hind, Kenneth

  Clay, Robert

  Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

  Clelland, David Gordon

  Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)

  Cohen, Harry

  Home Robertson, John

  Coleman, Donald

  Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Howells, Geraint

  Cook, Frank (Stockton North)

  Hoyle, Douglas

  Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)

  Hughes, Dr Mark (Durham)

  Corbett, Robin

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

  Craigen, J. M.

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Crowther, Stan

  Hunter, Andrew

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Irving, Charles

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Janner, Hon Greville

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd)

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

  Jessel, Toby

  Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly)

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'I)

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

  Deakins, Eric

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Dewar, Donald

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Dicks, Terry

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Dixon, Donald

  Kennedy, Charles

  Dobson, Frank

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Dormand, Jack

  Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

  Douglas, Dick

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Dover, Den

  Lambie, David

  Dubs, Alfred

  Lamond, James

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Latham, Michael

  Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

  Leadbitter, Ted

  701

  Leighton, Ronald

  Pendry, Tom

  Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)

  Penhaligon, David

  Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

  Pike, Peter

  Litherland, Robert

  Powell, Rt Hon J. E.

  Livsey, Richard

  Powley, John

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

  Prescott, John

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Pym, Rt Hon Francis

  Loyden, Edward

  Randall, Stuart

  McCrea, Rev William

  Raynsford, Nick

  McCusker, Harold

  Redmond, Martin

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Richardson, Ms Jo

  McGuire, Michael

  Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Robertson, George

  McKelvey, William

  Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Rogers, Allan

  McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

  Rooker, J. W.

  McNamara, Kevin

  Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)

  McTaggart, Robert

  Ross, Wm. (Londonderry E)

  McWilliam, John

  Rowlands, Ted

  Madden, Max

  Ryman, John

  Maginnis, Ken

  Sayeed, Jonathan

  Malins, Humfrey

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Marek, Dr John

  Sheerman, Barry

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

  Martin, Michael

  Shersby, Michael

  Mason, Rt Hon Roy

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Maxton, John

  Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Silkin, Rt Hon J.

  Maynard, Miss Joan

  Skinner, Dennis

  Meacher, Michael

  Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)

  Meadowcroft, Michael

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Michie, William

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Smyth, Rev W. M. (Belfast S)

  Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

  Soley, Clive

  Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Moate, Roger

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

  Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

  Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

  Stokes, John

  Mudd, David

  Stott, Roger

  Murphy, Christopher

  Strang, Gavin

  Nellist, David

  Straw, Jack

  Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  O'Brien, William

  Taylor, Rt Hon John David

  O'Neill, Martin

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Terlezki, Stefan

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

  Park, George

  Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)

  Patchett, Terry

  Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)

  Pawsey, James

  Thorne, Stan (Preston)

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Tinn, James

  702

  Torney, Tom

  Wigley, Dafydd

  van Straubenzee, Sir W.

  Wilkinson, John

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Williams, Rt Hon A.

  Viggers, Peter

  Wilson, Gordon

  Wainwright, R.

  Winnick, David

  Walker, Cecil (Belfast N)

  Winterton, Mrs Ann

  Wall, Sir Patrick

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Wallace, James

  Woodall, Alec

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Wareing, Robert

  Weetch, Ken

  Tellers for the Noes:

  White, James

  Mr. Ray Powell and

  Whitfield, John

  Mr. Frank Haynes.

  Question accordingly negatived.
  12.28 am
  Mr. Kinnock: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will the Government give us a statement on their future views on what was a central piece of their legislative programme —[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Kinnock: It was a piece of legislation forecast and to which the Government were committed in the Queen's Speech at the beginning of this Session—a piece of legislation which demonstrated the immense distance between the leadership of the Conservative party and the desires of the British people, as reflected in tonight's vote. We must have a statement this evening from the Government so that we can get guidance on whether they intend to repeat the lunacy of trying to introduce such a Bill in this or in any other Session. The same fate would meet such a Bill.
  Mr. Stanbrook rose—
  The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Biffen)rose—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I call the Leader of the House, and in this place we should above all else indulge In the freedom of speech.
  Mr. Biffen: In the light of the decision of the House tonight, it is clear that further progress on the Bill is not possible. The Government accept that position and have no plans to reintroduce this legislation.

PETITIONS

  Social Security Reform
  12.32 am
  Mr. Tim Yeo: I have the honour to present a petition from the citizens of south Suffolk to the effect that the Government's proposals for social security will be detrimental to recipients of social security benefit.
  To lie upon the Table.

  Shops Bill
  12.33 am
  Mr. Don Dixon: I wish to present a petition from my constituents in Jarrow against the Shops Bill. I know that this is somewhat belated in view of what has just happened, but in fairness to the thousands of people who signed this petition I feel that I am in duty bound to present it to the House of Commons.
  The petition states:
  Keep Sunday Special.
  To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled.
  The humble petition of residents of Jarrow constituency showeth that the undersigned are opposed to the provision for unlimited Sunday Trading in the Shops Bill currently before Parliament. Recongnising that Sunday has special characteristics as a day of rest, recreation and worship for the benefit of our family and community life.
  Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House do maintain legal limitations on Sunday Trading to ensure that the special character of Sunday is protected.
  And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.
  The petition was signed by 1,286 of my constituents from Jarrow, Hebburn. Boldon and Whitburn, and is headed by the Rev. J. W. Tweedy of the Sacred Heart Presbytery at Boldon colliery. It was handed in to my surgery on Saturday by an old workmate of mine, Eddie Goodall. The petition may be a bit belated now, but bearing in mind what has happened tonight, my constituents in Jarrow were right. Like my constituents, the majority of hon. Members are opposed to the Bill. I should be obliged if you would accept the petition, Mr. Speaker.
  To lie upon the Table.

  National Health Service (Rochdale)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.[Mr. Peter Lloyd.]
  12.36 am
  Mr. Cyril Smith (Rochdale): Rochdale health authority faces a serious crisis. It is a crisis which threatens to close two hospitals, a home for the mentally ill, two departments — the ear, nose and throat and plastic surgery—and beds in the children's ward and to sack 150 employees, approximately 100 of whom will be nurses, and the balance may well include some doctors. It is a totally unacceptable situation and an utter disgrace. It is a scandal of the first order, and one can well understand why the Minister for Health is too ashamed to attend the House tonight to answer for the Government. I welcome his deputy and I am grateful to him for coming, but I am bound to say that the seriousness of the situation in Rochdale merited the engine driver rather than his mate.
  I described the situation as a crisis. That is what it is, and that is why it needs the serious intervention of the Minister. The hon. Members for Heywood and Middleton (Mr. Callaghan) and for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) also hope to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, during this short debate, so time forbids me from giving too many quotations from our local press, but I shall give the Minister one or two.
  "Emergency admissions could grind to a halt if plans to close 98 hospital beds go ahead",
  Rochdale's top doctors warned on Monday. Dr. Jegerajah —a very respected physician in Rochdale and a much loved one—says:
  "We feel we will be unable to admit acutely ill patients. They will be kept waiting and either die in the community or in the hospital corridor while waiting to be admitted to the coronory care or chest unit."
  He went on to say that 95 per cent. of admissions to the medical wards are emergencies.
  Three experienced consultants, all household names to Rochdale people—Mr. John Main, Mr. Humphreys and Mr. Tony Higham—in a letter to the local press, said:
  "The loss of these beds means that we will be unable to continue to offer the same service as previously. Patients with more urgent conditions will join an ever lengthening waiting list. We will be obliged to discharge patients from hospital before they are really ready."
  The local medical committee in Rochdale said:
  "If these beds go, the work of looking after the sick who would normally be in hospital will fall on relatives, friends and neighbours."
  Last Saturday I stood in Rochdale market with a group of nurses asking people to sign a petition in opposition to the closures. The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton told me in the Lobby a few minutes ago that he had the same experience as I had—people queued five deep in order to sign the petition.
  I could occupy the whole of my time giving similar quotes from equally eminent sources. It is an intolerable situation and an utter disgrace. I urge the Minister to set up an inquiry into the north-west regional health authority. Its financial strategy is flawed and its financial management of districts needs to be investigated. I understand that soon another six district health authorities in the region are likely to be in the same situation as Rochdale. The chairman of the authority, Sir John Page, in whom I have absolutely no confidence, is not concerned with maintaining the service. He told me, in the presence

  705
  of two other Members of Parliament, that Rochdale's waiting list for operations, and so on, would have to grow longer to balance the budget. That is a disgraceful position for the chairman of a regional health authority to take. I despair of the man.
  The chairman's strategy of developing new fringe services at the expense of old, but basic and essential ones, is like a fellow who is more concerned with double glazing the upstairs windows of his house than with the foundations that are rotting away. I question the need for a regional authority anyway. Its vast bureaucracy, its army of officers, the recent vast development of the public relations unit in the region and its occupation of lavish and expensive offices make no direct contribution to patient care. Rather than sack a nurse, I would sack the regional chairman and abolish his office.
  The North West regional health authority is the most interventionist in Britain. That can be proved and demonstrated convincingly and clearly. It has robbed the district health authorities of much-needed cash to play around with new ideas, many of which are laudable but not at the expense of basic essentials. The region's financial strategy is flawed. It is trying to go faster than existing services can financially stand. Some of Sir John's children get fed while others starve. There is an ambitious capital programme, which is overspending even on its original targets, and, here again, the poor districts have to make up the balance. The basis of Rochdale's crisis is not its mismanagement, but the mismanagement and interference of the regional authority.
  Rochdale has the worst community services in the region, but it is a deprived area. As soon as the Rochdale authority tries to re-deploy money from hospitals into this service, the region withdraws saved finance to support its pet regional schemes. For example, there has been a 25-bed reduction in 10 years. The region conned us into believing that 56 bed closures would mean that the savings would go into the Rochdale service. Instead, this year it is taking the money that accrued from those savings away from us. That alone amounts to £385,000 per annum. Last year, the trimming of bureaucracy by the Rochdale health authority released £415,000 in a full year. Surely, that is evidence of the commitment of the Rochdale authority to live within its budget. There is no way, certainly in the long term, that the Rochdale authority can live within the region's allocated cash limits without damaging patient services. That is the crisis that I put before the Minister.
  We have a legacy of old and scattered buildings in Rochdale, yet we have a regional allocation policy that ignores the facts. For example, a district with a £20 million redevelopment scheme gets its capital for basic maintenance on the same basis as Rochdale, despite the fact that Rochdale has the old buildings. Such economic management defies common sense. Rochdale is in the bottom six for proportionate expenditure on maintenance and equipment. These cuts will push us to the bottom.
  We have had underfunding of price increases and pay awards in four out of the past five years, and that is costing Rochdale over £1 million a year. The 1·2 per cent. cash limit increase that the north-west received was not given out on a proportionate basis, and that cost Rochdale another £31,000 per annum. Other authorities — for example, Salford—were allowed time to balance their books. The region is financing last year's overspendings, but not Rochdale's. Why will Rochdale not get full funding for its elderly severely mentally infirm unit when
  706
  every other authority in the region will? The fact is that we are being penalised for being too progressive in the past.
  Why should Rochdale have to pay part of the cost of computerising medical records when it is doing that as a pilot scheme for the region? Frankly, if I were the Rochdale health authority, I would tell the region to go and get knotted.
  Rochdale needs help now. It needs more cash to provide an adequate service. I hope that tonight the Minister will undertake to consider the position in Rochdale, allocate Rochdale temporary help for the short term and investigate the regional authority and its financial strategy. Nothing less will do.
  Some of us feel passionately about the Health Service. We are proud of it. No one denies—certainly I do not—that more money is being spent on the Health Service. The issue is not whether more money is being spent but whether that which is being spent is adequate to meet the needs and provide the basic services.
  I am proud of the Health Service. It is the finest in the world. The medical and other staff are dedicated people. Frankly, I am unprepared passively to watch it being destroyed at its roots by any Government, region or anyone else. Rochdale is not getting a fair or adequate deal, and the north-west region is not pursuing a wise financial policy. That is why tonight I plead with the Government for some real help and response to that plea.
  12.46 am
  Mr. Geoffrey Dickens: I am deeply grateful to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith), first, for securing the debate, and, secondly, for allowing me two or three minutes in which to speak.
  Rochdale's excellent performance in regard to hospital services is a remarkable achievement that should receive immediate financial recognition from the regional health authority. I say "remarkable" for two reasons. First, Rochdale treats relatively more people in hospital. In fact, Rochdale's hospitalisation is in the top 7 per cent. of the country. Secondly, the actual throughput of patients compared with the expected throughput shows that significantly more patients per bed are treated—that is efficiency — than the regional or national average and Rochdale's performance rate is in the top 25 per cent. for the country. The shorter the length of stay in hospital, the more care and attention is required of the community services. Rochdale has a first-class district nurse team, but it is hard worked, and there are too few health visitors.
  Rochdale has achieved such excellence despite a legacy of old and scattered buildings in Rochdale, as my hon. Friend — I mean to call him that — the Member for Rochdale said. The region's capital allocation policy is not sensitive to that because the formula does not reflect new or old buildings or development in progress. A district with a £20 million redevelopment scheme receives its capital for maintenance on the same basis as Rochdale.
  Rochdale needs special help and relief immediately. If its debts were wiped out by Her Majesty's Government, it would be able to stand on its own feet with pride as an example of excellence to others. I fully support the hon. Gentleman.
  12.48 am
  Mr. Jim Callaghan: I thank the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) for allowing me two or three minutes in which to reinforce his case for extra financial assistance for the Rochdale health authority.
  In the famous Dickens novel, Oliver Twist went to the beadle and asked for more. We all know why. He asked for more because he was given insufficient. Hon. Members are coming to the Minister, just as Oliver Twist went to the beadle, but we hope that we will not get the reaction from him that Oliver Twist received from the beadle.
  In the short time at my disposal I cannot do justice to the full case for Rochdale. The Rochdale health authority is being required by the North-West regional health authority to reduce its cash basis to a balanced budget in in only one year. To do that the Rochdale health authority is required to make a cut of over £2 million in a budget of only £26 million—a cut of almost 8 per cent. It is an amputation, no a cut. The cut can be achieved only by the closure of 150 beds or the sacking of 100 staff.
  The required cut is the most drastic asked of any district health authority. Whenever cuts are made, they are unacceptable not only to hon. Members but to the Labour party.
  The changes will have a dramatic effect on the health district with the least developed community health services in the north-west. Does the Minister realise that Rochdale ranks 15 out of the 19 hospital districts in terms of being badly off in numbers of health visitors and that it is the worst district in terms of district nurses?
  One of Rochdale's most senior social services officers has said that Rochdale is the most deprived of deprived areas. I agree with him.
  Rochdale is already the bottom of six districts for its low proportion of expenditure on maintenance equipment and other non-staff budgets. Further cuts will push Rochdale's hospital services to the bottom of the heap.
  The Rochdale area health authority is now finding that the cost of patient services can be contained within present cash limits only at the expense of severe reductions in patient care and services. The finance allocated by the North-West regional health authority to the Rochdale health authority is inadequate to maintain current services at present levels, so patients will suffer.
  I fervently oppose the proposed cuts and ask the Minister to examine the faulty financial strategy of the North-West regional health authority as it applies to the Rochdale health authority.
  12.52 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Ray Whitney): The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) said that he was a passionate defender of the National Health Service and that he was proud of the service. He was good enough to recognise that the Health Service has benefited in real terms under this Government by the transfer of additional resources well above the inflation rate, which this year will be 24 per cent. above. He also said that the Health Service was being destroyed at its roots. That is a travesty of the truth and does great harm to the Health Service, whether in Rochdale, the north-west or the country as a whole.
  I shall put one or two facts to the House to substantiate my assertion. The north-west has far fewer problems today
  708
  than it had when the Government took office. It is better funded and better managed — I pay tribute to the regional chairman, Sir John Page—and it has certainly treated more patients than ever.
  Since 1978–79, Health Service spending in the region has more than doubled, from £380 million to £809 million in 1984–85. That is growth in real terms of 19·6 per cent. If we take that with the region's allocations for 1985–86 and 1986–87, we see that the real term expenditure is forecast to rise by about 21 per cent. overall. That is not by any means destroying the whole service at the roots or at any other point. This year's allocation has brought the region to within 0·8 per cent. of its Resource Allocation Working Party target, compared with 9 per cent. below in 1978–79.
  Patients, of course, and not sums of money are the issue. The number of patients treated has grown from 3·7 million in 1978 to 4·267 million in 1984, the last year for which figures are available. There is no doubt that in the north western region as a whole the health services, the Government, and the authority and its chairman have a good story to tell.
  Rochdale has always been relatively well provided for. One of the best indicators of this is that Rochdale people find it easier to gain access to hospital services than do people in many other parts of the north-west region. Waiting lists for many specialties are below the regional and national average. In 1984, 9 per cent. more patients were treated in Rochdale than were treated in 1982. Unlike the region as a whole, Rochdale has long been at or above its RAWP target. Despite what the hon. Member has said, Rochdale is not underfunded. Rochdale people have good health services and I pay tribute to all who work in the Health Service in the district for the care that they give to the constituents of all hon. Members who have spoken in the debate.
  There is a problem that has grown since 1981, when warnings were first sounded. The authority has not acted in time or effectively to avoid overspending its cash limits. All Governments must insist that health authorities live within their cash limits. The problem is not cuts. We are building, not cutting in the north-west region. The problem in Rochdale is resource management. Demand exceeds the resources available. The position in Europe and the United States of America is no different. Although we are ensuring that a growing share of national resources are available to the Health Service, that resource, nevertheless, has to be carefully managed. The north-west region, as I have said, is doing particularly well out of this. The task is to choose priorities in putting these resources to best use for the benefit of local peoples. That is what resource management is all about. This is what Rochdale has been asked to do repeatedly since warnings were first given in 1981.
  In November 1982 the district treasurer warned the district health authority of a potential overspend of £700,000 by year end if no action was taken to reduce spending levels. The district chairman subsequently wrote to members expressing her concern at the financial situation and drawing attention to their obligation —enforced by all Governments—to live within their cash limits. In May 1983 the treasurer again warned the authority. It was forecast at this stage that the budgets required by service managers exceeded allocations by £1·3 million — 6 per cent. — and that some adjustment in service levels was inevitable.

  709
  Subsequently, and after local consultation, Ministers agreed to the authority closing 56 acute beds to save £418,000. Despite these savings, the DHA was forecasting an overspend at the end of 1983–84 of £750,000, of which £440,000 was accumulated overspending brought forward from 1982–83. The authority was therefore overspending at an annual rate of £310,000–1·5 per cent. Further savings were proposed of approximately £300,000 to bring the current annual spending level into line, but the accumulated overspending would have been untouched. These savings included, as the hon. Member knows, the authority making some headquarters staff redundant last year.
  Warnings were given again last year of a year-end shortfall of up to £1·5 million in the absence of corrective action. In spite of this, I understand that the Rochdale health authority adopted a budget for 1985–86 which, from the outset, showed overspending of £380,000. Part of this overspend was £330,000 brought forward from 1984–85, so it could be said that at that time the budget was expected to overspend only marginally in current terms. However, the district treasurer has assessed that, by the start Of the current financial year, spending levels had to be reduced by 6·1 per cent. to achieve a balance. I understand that, after discussions with the regional health authority, Rochdale now estimates a lower deficit of about £1·5 million. Rochdale health authority is to consider recommendations on achieving a balanced budget in 1986–87 at its meeting on 22 April.
  I understand that the hon. Member, with my hon. Friend the Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) and the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Mr. Callaghan), with councillor Mrs. Hawton, the Rochdale chairman, met the regional chairman on 14 March. Afterwards, Mrs. Hawton took her own deputation to Sir John. Several questions were put to Sir John, asking for more money and drawing attention to the DHA's view that it is an efficient authority. The hon. Member has had his answers. In summary, Sir John and his team at the region assured him that Rochdale was being treated fairly—indeed, Rochdale is better advantaged than many north western districts—and that it is up to Rochdale to put its house in order. I understand that that is what the authority plans to do on 22 April.
  710
  Hon. Members have mentioned proposals that worry them, but they should be addressed to the authority. The hon. Members for Rochdale and for Heywood and Middleton mentioned redundancies. I understand that there is no question of compulsory redundancies.
  Mr. Cyril Smith: That is not true.
  Mr. Whitney: That is my understanding. I also understand that there will be consultation on any envisaged hospital closures, which, in any case, follow new facilities or improvements in service. If closures were recommended and the community health council had objections, Ministers would take the decision anyway. I am advised that Rochdale will benefit from reinvestment of the proceeds of land sales.
  No one is being inflexible. If a district is allowed to overspend, it is at the cost of much needed developments locally or in other less well provided parts of the region. Rochdale must agree a programme with the region for balancing its budget. Of course, there will be difficult choices, and everything must be done to avoid affecting patients' services. If the nettle is not grasped, however, all that has been achieved in Rochdale and the north-west will be undermined.
  Rochdale health authority is to decide how to tackle this problem on 22 April. It is a responsible authority I have confidence that it will now take the right decisions to put Rochdale's health services on a firm financial foundation for the developments ahead. It is important that we recognise what has been achieved. The resources that have been devoted to Rochdale and the north-west—
  Mr. Smith: They are not enough.
  Mr. Whitney: The hon. Gentleman must take account of major transfers of resources. If he is interested in yet more resources, he must consider how much heavier a burden he is willing to put on his constituents or the country.
  The resources that have been transferred to the National Health Service will increase by 24 per cent. in real terms this year, and Rochdale and the north-west have had a very fair share.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at four minutes past One o'clock.

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  Association of Former Laker Employees
  Vehicle Registrations
  Vehicle Registrations
  Channel Tunnel
  Channel Tunnel
  Airport Security
  Airport Security
  Signposts
  Signposts
  National Bus Company
  National Bus Company
  Transport Act 1985 (Circular)
  Transport Act 1985 (Circular)
  Hackney Carriage Plates
  Hackney Carriage Plates
  Roads
  Roads
  Property Acquisitions
  Property Acquisitions
  Shipping
  Shipping
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Mileage Allowance
  Mileage Allowance
  £2 Commonwealth Games Commemorative Coin
  £2 Commonwealth Games Commemorative Coin
  European Monetary System
  European Monetary System
  Common Agricultural Policy Budget
  Common Agricultural Policy Budget
  Northern Constabulary (Travel Warrants)
  Northern Constabulary (Travel Warrants)
  Capital Transfer Tax
  Capital Transfer Tax
  Johnson Matthey Bank
  Johnson Matthey Bank
  Income Tax
  Income Tax
  Married Man's Tax Allowance
  Married Man's Tax Allowance
  Tax and National Insurance
  Tax and National Insurance
DEFENCE
  Research
  Research
  Sponsorship Scheme
  Sponsorship Scheme
  South Korea
  South Korea
  Royal Navy (Emergencies)
  Royal Navy (Emergencies)
  Submarine Refit Capacity
  Submarine Refit Capacity
THE ARTS
  Arts Funding
  Arts Funding
  Sponsorship
  Sponsorship
  European Community
  European Community
  Local Government Reform
  Local Government Reform
CIVIL SERVICE
  Ethnic Monitoring
  Ethnic Monitoring

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Ely.

Postage Stamps: Sale Outlets
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the reduction of the number of post offices, they would ask the Post Office to consider the sale of postage stamps in shops.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Lucas of Chilworth): My Lords, the question of the wider availability of postage stamps is an operational matter for the Post Office Board. However, I am aware that, while the Post Office is responsible for the printing and first issue of stamps, retailers are free to buy stamps and resell them in their shops.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Can he say how many post offices have been closed during the last 12 months, two years or any such convenient period? Do I understand that he is now saying that any retailer is perfectly free to sell stamps should he so wish?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, there are some 12,000 shops and hotels which currently sell stamps in addition to the network of 21,000 post offices that are supplemented by 8,000 stamp vending machines. So there is a reasonable 24-hour service across the country.
Lord Paget of Northampton: My Lords, can the noble Lord say what commission is received for selling stamps? Why is it attractive to a post office but not to a Co-op?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, it is attractive to some 12,000 shops and hotels. The Post Office does not, however, discount its sales.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether he regards the reduction in the number of post offices as being a matter solely for the Post Office? If it is a matter largely under Government policy control or Government policy suggestion, will he make urgent representations to the Post Office to stop reducing the number of post offices in the United Kingdom?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, the answer to the latter part of the noble Lord's supplementary question is, no. Questions about individual post offices are operational ones for the Post Office. The Government have no power, and indeed no wish, to intervene. The main criterion for the Post Office in
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considering closure is the distance standard that the Post Office has operated since the 1940s in providing post offices in urban areas at intervals of not less than a mile. The standard is not applied rigidly.
Viscount Mountgarret: My Lords, more to the point of the Question, will my noble friend not agree that in a great many overseas countries, in any place where tourists buy a postcard to send to their nearest and dearest, they automatically also get a stamp if they ask for it? The suggestion contained in the Question of my noble friend would surely be of great assistance to tourists visiting this country. Should not this question be borne seriously in mind by the Government?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, this is not a matter for the Government. If retailers of postcards, or those running any other shop, wish to sell stamps, they are at liberty to do so. They are also at liberty to charge what they wish for those stamps, since no resale price maintenance is in force.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the reduction mentioned in the Question applies to what I might call sub-post offices; namely, those little retailers who fulfil the function of a post office behind one section of the counter and sell postcards, stationery, The Times and the Daily Express on the other side?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I believe that I have already given a reply relating to the general principle of post office closures. I do not believe that I can go further.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that stamps have been sold in certain cafes in France, at least for the whole of my lifetime, without any difficulty? Is he further aware that the face value of the stamp is the amount that is charged—and no more than that? That seems to proceed without any difficulty. Why is it so difficult in this country for stamps to be sold in pubs, for example?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding us of the practice in France. There is no difficulty over the purchase and resale of stamps in this country. It is entirely a matter for retailers to decide.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, is it the intention of the Government, if the Sunday trading Bill is passed, to have post offices open on Sunday?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, the hours that post offices open are an operational matter for the Post Office itself. It has no bearing on the hypothetical question that the noble Lord asks.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, have I understood my noble friend correctly? Can any retail shop sell stamps if it so wants; or does it require a licence to do so from the Post Office? I understand my noble friend to say that hotels can sell stamps. Can all retail shops also do so if they wish?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, given the legislation that currently exists and also any local by-laws that may obtain in so far as the sale of goods is concerned, shops, hotels, bars and so on may sell stamps if they so wish.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that post offices provide a number of other important services for the public, not least the service to old age pensioners when they draw their pensions? Will the Government be prepared to listen to any protests that are made should there be further closures of post offices and not adopt a holier-than-thou attitude that this has nothing to do with them when they have not hesitated to sell off other public services to the rich?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, since this afternoon I am dealing with the question of the resale of postage stamps I regret that I cannot answer the noble Lord.
Lord Walston: My Lords, will the noble Lord consider using his undoubted powers of persuasion to suggest to the Post Office that, in view of the fact that it would have far less expense in selling stamps in bulk to other retailers, it should offer some discount, so as to encourage them?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I am flattered by the belief of the noble Lord, Lord Walston, in my powers of persuasion. The Post Office practice has been to avoid giving discounts, since it is judged that this would not increase overall the stamp sales but instead would take away business from post offices, the overheads of which would remain the same.

Defence Policy: Labour Party's Statement
2.41 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their reaction to the Labour Party's statement on non-nuclear defence entitled Defence and Security for Britain.
The Minister of State for Defence Support (Lord Trefgarne): My Lords, we believe that the defence policy proposed in the publication referred to by the noble Lord would jeopardise the peace and security which Europe has enjoyed for over 40 years. We therefore profoundly disagree with it.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am sorry to hear of his profound disagreement? I had hoped that he would say that the Prime Minister's intervention to prevent American aircraft flying from bases in this country—which we understand has taken place recently in connection with the American presence off the Libyan coast—was an indication that the Government were moving in our direction.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, the Question on the Order Paper refers to a document issued by the Labour Party; and I do not think that his supplementary question arises from that.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord. Some clarification is clearly necessary. The document to which I refer says that the next Labour Government will refuse cruise and US nuclear bases in the United Kingdom. Is it not relevant to draw attention to the Prime Minister's decision to forbid the flying of American aircraft from bases in this country, which suggests that, at long last, the Government are realising that the presence of American aircraft in this country can be a danger rather than a defence?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, again, I do not think that that arises from the Question that I have answered.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, does not the rather naïve document to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, seeks to draw attention confirm the recently expressed view of Mr. Denis Healey that the leadership of the Labour Party is lacking in practical experience?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, that, I believe is self-evident. However, there are a number of contradictory features in the document to which I have referred.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, will the noble Lord agree, first, that no government who are loyal to NATO would dream of withdrawing without the agreement of their allies or co-operation with the NATO deterrent? Secondly, will he also agree that NATO's defence capacity is unbalanced, and that priority should now be given to strengthening its conventional forces?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the document which is the subject of the Question contains a number of contradictions which I have no doubt will become apparent to noble Lords opposite if they ever again come into power.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that it is part of Labour's defence policy to cancel the Trident programme? Will the noble Lord tell the House the current cost of the Trident programme; and how much it has escalated since it was conceived?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, again, that question goes very wide of the Question on the Order Paper. We made an announcement very recently about the current projected cost of Trident.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, with regard to the supplementary question put by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, in considering the publication referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, will the Government also take note of another publication—namely, the Italian newspaper La Stampa of 5th April? I know that that will not be very popular on this side of the House. In that publication, it is recorded that the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Mr. Denis Healey, has referred to the Labour Party's

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defence policy as a problem. He goes on to say that he hopes to put it in order before the next general election. Is it not therefore somewhat hypothetical to be discussing the Labour Party's defence policy?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, it may be worth mentioning that the right honourable gentleman to whom the noble Lord refers is, I think, the only member of the present Shadow Cabinet who has held high office in a defence department.
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, will my noble friend be able to give us any rough estimate of what the Government feel would be the necessary cost, not only to the British defence budget but to all allies' defence budgets in NATO if we were to move to a situation where we could hold with conventional arms any assault from the East for more than a matter of days—in fact, indefinitely—bearing in mind that their firepower in terms of tanks, aircraft and the like is about two to one or more at the present time?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I think that the Labour Party is wrong if it imagines that it can replace nuclear deterrents with conventional deterrents at the same level of deterrence at the same cost. My noble friend is right to point out that that is not remotely possible. That presents us with some difficulty because the Labour Party apparently thinks that it will fund all the other improvements that it plans at the expense of the defence budget. As it is forecasting a total of something like £24,000 million of extra expenditure, there will be some difficulty for it.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, will my noble friend agree that, while this document would no doubt be an excellent subject for a debate, it is scarcely a matter for Questions, especially as so many of us do not know whether it is going to be discussed?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I agree that the document is wide-ranging, and it would take me a long time to recite all its shortcomings.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that there has been an important new contribution to the debate this afternoon in that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, has recognised that there is an effective British Government veto on the use of American bombers from British bases?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, that is a matter which we have discussed on a number of occasions.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Russian leaders have agreed that if there is a policy as contained in our document for the phasing out of Polaris, they will be prepared to negotiate one for one with that phasing out? Is not that a practical means, arising out of the Labour Party's defence policy, for nuclear disarmament in Europe?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I have no doubt that the Soviet Union would greatly appreciate the phasing out of the British independent nuclear deterrent, because it would contribute to its security, but not to ours.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, does not the Minister agree that anything which might contribute to the prevention of a thermonuclear war should not be just sarcastically dismissed, because it could well be something worthy of examination, and that the alternative is pretty dreadful? Moreover, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, said, it was the Labour Party that first created NATO and that has given it massive support when it has been in government. Anything that comes from Her Majesty's Opposition or from any other political party in this country is something with which, under the rules of democracy, you do not have to agree, but perhaps on such an important issue you may be prepared to examine it.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, it is the case that ever since the Second World War the Labour Party has supported the maintenance of an independent British nuclear deterrent, and that is why its present stance is so curious.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I should like to acquaint the noble Lord with the point that the document was signed on behalf of the parliamentary Labour Party by our defence spokesman in the other Chamber, Mr. Denzil Davies, and that that parliamentary Labour Party will, I hope, long include Mr. Denis Healey, who is in a position to speak for himself on all occasions.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I return to the point which I made earlier that Mr. Healey is by far and away the most experienced in these matters.

Local Authorities and Newspaper Advertising
2.52 p.m.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take concerning the practice of some local authorities of declining to advertise in local newspapers for political reasons, despite the fact that those newspapers have the largest circulation in the area concerned.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Elton): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware of this problem and share the noble Lord's concern. The evidence which my department and others gave to the Widdicombe Inquiry drew particular attention to decisions taken by some authorities to withdraw their custom or facilities from local newspapers for political reasons. We shall consider the need for action in the light of the inquiry's report, which we expect shortly.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Is he aware—to take one example—that in the case of the local authority in Islington, an advertising boycott is directed at the local weekly newspaper, the Islington Gazette? Is he aware that that behaviour by the local authority has been

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condemned by both the Press Council and the local government ombudsman and that despite that the local authority is continuing its spiteful boycott against a small local weekly newspaper?
Lord Elton: My Lords, as I have said, Her Majesty's Government are aware of an increasing tendency for some authorities to apply political tests and conditions in their commercial judgments in decision taking. We regret that development and we look to the Widdicombe Report to give a clear exposition of the alternative options open to us.

PBI and NSDO: Projected Privatisation
2.56 p.m.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what their plans are for the Plant Breeding Institute and the National Seed Development Organisation.
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, I announced on 18th February in reply to a Question by my noble friend Lord Cranbrook that the Secretary of State for Education and Science and agriculture Ministers had decided to privatise the National Seed Development Organisation and part of the Plant Breeding Institute, provided this can be achieved on satisfactory terms. I also said that we intend to appoint financial advisers. Lazard Brothers & Company Limited have now been commissioned to carry out a preliminary study of the options for privatisation. They have been asked to report in early May.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, is the Minister aware that this proposal was first mooted in the early spring of 1984 and that since then I have asked several Questions of various Ministers but it is only now that some move is being made? Does the Minister realise what the situation is doing to the staff of the PBI, who are a very devoted staff in plant breeding, biotechnology and everything else? It is disgraceful that two government departments cannot get together quicker and settle the issue one way or another, never mind the rights and wrongs of it.
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, I recognise that we have been talking about this matter for some time. On the other hand, if we had acted quickly, the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, would have been quick enough in getting up and questioning whether the Government were acting with undue haste and without consultation. So far as the staff are concerned, I agree that they are the main asssets of the PBI and the NSDO. In fact, the morale of key staff is holding up admirably, and we recognise the importance of retaining them, especially at this time of uncertainty about the future of the two organisations. For that reason we shall be seeking to take decisions as soon as possible, consulting the staff through the respective governing bodies about the form of any privatisation.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, does the noble Earl believe that high morale is reflected by three top people leaving the company?
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, individuals are of course free to leave at any time. However, I think that morale is higher now than before we announced that there was to be privatisation.
Lord Walston: My Lords, given the very great contribution that both the PBI and the NSDO have made to agriculture in this country and the high esteem in which they are held in other countries too, and the fact that their financial record is most satisfactory and they bring in considerable sums of money to the Exchequer, will not the noble Earl give us, very briefly, the Government's reasons for even considering the privatisation of these two organisations, if only in part?
The Earl of Swinton: Yes, my Lords. I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Walston, that the PBI has been successful in producing many valuable varieties and that the NSDO has also performed commendably its role of marketing finished varieties produced by the state institutes. However, there has been some reduction in the level of funding at the PBI and other institutes and it is sensible to look for ways to make this up. It is Government policy to encourage industry funding of R & D, to improve technology transfer from publicly funded research to industry for the benefit of the UK recovery and to consider privatisation where this might foster sound management, commercial efficiency and good value for money for the taxpayers. It is therefore entirely appropriate that the position of the PBI and the NSDO should be reviewed in this way.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that considerations other than commercial ones are being taken into account? That did not seem very clear from his answer. In particular, will he give a categorical assurance that so far as the PBI is concerned the enhanced commercial value of its present site is not a factor in curtailing its operations?
The Earl of Swinton: Yes, my Lords; the whole of the PBI will not be going. I apologise, but I have forgotten the second part of the question.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, is the possible enhanced value of the PBI site at the moment a factor in reducing its operations?
The Earl of Swinton: No, my Lords, because we hope that the site will remain. We shall not sell off the whole of the PBI. So far as the first part of the question is concerned—namely, whether we shall take into account other factors—the answer is that yes, we certainly shall do so.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in agricultural circles throughout this country there is profound concern at the Government's policy towards plant breeding institutes generally? I ask the noble Earl to recall the debate which we had in this House on the Welsh plant

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breeding station at Aberystwyth. Is the noble Earl aware that, as the noble Lord, Lord Walston, said, in this country we have an incomparable reputation in the field of plant breeding and that now it appears from all the evidence we have that the Government are dismantling our plant breeding institutes? In order to clarify the situation will the noble Earl ask his right honourable friend to ensure that a White Paper is published as soon as possible so that we may know the details of Government policy on this important matter?
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, I think that I can give the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, more than a crumb of comfort, in that so far as the Welsh plant breeding station is concerned no change is planned. I must, however, express some reservation about the idea of a White Paper, though I shall of course draw it to the attention of my right honourable friend.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, I am much obliged, but I must press the noble Earl on that, and I should be grateful if he would convey it to his right honourable friend. Is the noble Earl aware that he has given me no crumb of comfort whatsoever? Is he not aware, as the Minister concerned in this matter in this House, that the Welsh plant breeding station has been deprived of funds; that the expert staff who have been working there for years have been cut down in numbers savagely; and that they have been deprived of their research work on barley and other essential crops? Does the noble Earl not agree that it is an absolute disgrace that the only institute of its kind in Wales has been treated abominably in this way, and that the Government are entirely reponsible for that?
The Earl of Swinton: No, my Lords, I would not accept that from the noble Lord. Indeed, I shall never forget the debate we had on that subject, and I very much take the points that he made. But I was trying to tell the noble Lord that it is not going to be sold off. Of course, I shall draw my right honourable friend's attention to what has been said this afternoon and ask whether he will consider publication of a White Paper.
Lord Kilmarnock: My Lords, is there any reason why the institute should not retain its present status but also run a trading account? Furthermore, if the Government are determined to go down the privatisation road, will they consider a management buy-out?
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, so far as the last part of the noble Lord's supplementary is concerned, we shall be considering any suggestion that is put to us. I understand that the NFU, for instance, are interested, and we shall be examining positively any proposals that they put forward.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, arising out of my noble friend's question about Aberystwyth, may I raise the matter of Aberystwyth and potato plant breeding in Scotland? If the NSDO is privatised and goes, what arrangements, in haste or in slowness, are the Government going to have for the marketing of that product?
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, they are both questions that we shall be considering.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, would the Minister ensure that there is no confusion when he comes to promulgate plans for the Plant Breeding Institute?—because to many of us in this House "PBI" means "poor bloody infantry".
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, not to me, at any rate.
Lord Kilmarnock: My Lords, I am sorry to come back to the noble Earl, but could he answer my first supplementary, which was as to whether there was any reason why the institute, as at present constituted, should not run a trading account?
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, I think we have decided that we shall answer one supplementary at a time. I shall have to write to the noble Lord on that one.

Business
3.25 p.m.
Lord Denham: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that the Report stage of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill will be adjourned at approximately 7 p.m. for about one hour, and that during the adjournment the Committee stage of the Patents, Designs and Marks Bill will be taken.

Armed Forces Bill
Brought from the Commons on Friday last and printed pursuant to Standing Order No. 48; read a first time.

Sex Discrimination Bill [H.L.]
3.3 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 1 [Private households and small undertakings]:
The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham) moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 2, line 4, at end insert—
("(2A) In section 11 of the 1975 Act, in subesection (1) (which deals with discrimination against a woman in relation to a position as partner in a firm consisting of six or more partners), the words "consisting of six or more partners" shall cease to have effect.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to take Amendments Nos. 1 and 6 together. My noble friend Lady Platt tabled an amendment at Committee stage designed to bring partnerships consisting of five or fewer within the Sex Discrimination Act's requirement not to discriminate in the selection or treatment of partners. She kindly agreed to withdraw her amendment when my noble friend Lord Trefgarne indicated the Government's sympathy and undertook that we would bring forward

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an amendment of our own. Ours differ from my noble friend Lady Platt's amendment in drafting but not in substance. I hope they will be acceptable to the House.
May I also take this opportunity to mention a matter in which several noble Lords expressed an interest on the day of Second Reading; namely, the European Court of Justice ruling in the case of Marshall v. South West Hampshire Area Health Authority. I said that I would consider urgently whether amendments should be made to the Sex Discrimination Bill to comply with the court ruling. My department issued on 1st April a consultative document containing proposals to change United Kingdom legislation. The proposed amendment would make it unlawful to dismiss a woman or compulsorily retire her at an age when a man in comparable circumstances would not receive this treatment. In addition, women will be given the right to claim unfair dismissal up to the same age as men. The consultative document has been placed in the Library of your Lordships' House. The consultation period will end on 30th April. Amendments to this Bill will be introduced in another place. I beg to move.
Lord McCarthy: My Lords, we should like to thank the Minister for accepting the argument put forward at Committee stage by the noble Baroness and for introducing this amendment at this stage. It was a general argument which had general support in the Committee at that stage, that if the Government were acceding to the request to remove discrimination from small firms then they should also do it for small partners, as it were. We are glad that the Government have done this; and we are interested to hear of the further amendments that the Government are going to introduce in another place as a result of other decisions.
Since the noble Lord is ranging widely in this area, I should like to ask him at this stage whether the Government have thought again about a further amendment which was put down by the noble Baroness at Committee stage. That was Amendment No. 2, which dealt with her desire to leave out what might be called the second limb of the Government's definition of the types of discrimination that would still be possible in private households. She argued, and we supported her at that stage in relation to this clause, that there was no need for the second limb.
The first limb, which dealt with the degree of social or physical contact, in fact dealt with all the examples that the Minister gave us on that occasion, and the second limb, which dealt with knowledge of private affairs, in fact did not deal with any of the examples. Therefore, while the Government are in this rather conciliatory mood, as they are this afternoon, and they are prepared to accept at least one of the noble Baroness's amendments, could they tell us how they now feel about the other amendment and whether they will be doing anything about that in the other place?
Baroness Seear: My Lords, I was interested to hear what the noble Lord said about the questions arising from the Marshall case. I have not had the opportunity to read the document that has been put in the Library, but may I ask two questions? First, are the
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Government considering, in relation to this case, the whole question, the much wider but surely related question which cannot indefinitely be ducked, of a common retirement age? As it stands at the moment, and in relation to the Marshall case, I realise that this is not strictly required within the narrow limits of the finding of that case, but surely it must be linked, and it does not make good sense to consider the one without the other.
Secondly, since the amendment arising out of the case is going to be moved in another place, may I ask the Secretary of State whether we here will have an opportunity to discuss it?
Baroness Platt of Writtle: My Lords, it is with great pleasure that I express my gratitude to my noble friend the Secretary of State, and support this amendment to Clause 1. The Equal Opportunities Commission was concerned that without the amendment the Bill might fail to comply with the European Equal Treatment Directive. It is important that small professional partnerships should be treated in the same way as small firms, and I am grateful to my noble friend for introducing this amendment, which I hope the House will accept.
I am also naturally pleased, as we supported Miss Marshall, to hear that amendments will be put in another place as a follow-up to her case. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, we too at the Equal Opportunities Commission would welcome the equalisation of pension age.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, may I just say that I think we are all gratified to hear from the noble Lord that he has moved with such dispatch to deal with the judgment of the European Court on this question. We also hope that we shall have an opportunity of getting at Third Reading, in perhaps slightly more detail, the character of the amendments which may be tabled in another place.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, may I take this opportunity of dealing with the matters raised by my noble friend Lady Seear and other noble Lords—
Baroness Seear: My Lords, I am not the noble Lord's noble friend.
Lord Young of Graffham: Forgive me, my Lords: the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, who I hope is a friend outside this Chamber as well as in other places.
These matters concerned the Marshall case. Under that case, we are dealing solely with the requirement laid by employers on any employee to retire at a specific age and any discrimination which the court felt that that entailed. The financial results relating to retirement are quite another matter. They are the responsibility of my right honourable friend in another place and are matters which involve the whole range of interests outside discrimination on the grounds of sex. I am sure that these are matters which can be raised, but I am not sure that they are appropriate to be raised in legislation which deals solely with discrimination. The consultation period ends on 30th April and we wish to reflect on the results of the consultation. Therefore it may not be possible to determine

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precisely what amendments will be moved in another place by that date. I have no doubt that it is open to anyone in your Lordships' House to consider any changes that come from another place and to come back here before the Bill is passed.
I shall now deal with the precise matter of private households. At the moment, I am afraid we are still looking for a better and more appropriate form of words. I hope that we may be able to get a little further along this way when we return on Third Reading.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 2 [Amendments of section 77 of 1975 Act]:
Lord Young of Graffham Lord Young of Graffham moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 2, line 13, leave out ("employed by him") and insert ("who are employed by him or who apply to be, or are, considered by him for employment").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment arises from your Lordships' debate at Committee stage. The noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, drew attention to a potential limitation in the coverage of Clause 2(1)(b) relating to employers' rules, and I am happy to remedy that now. The amendment will ensure that employers' rules which are unlawfully discriminatory will be void not only where they relate to existing employees but also in relation to applicants or those who are considered for employment. This brings the provision in line with what we have provided for collective agreements and with the existing employment provisions of the 1975 Act, which cover offers of employment as well as conditions for existing employees. I beg to move.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, briefly, we express our pleasure at this amendment. The Government amendment brings this Bill into line with the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 more completely than the amendment that we moved at Committee stage. Therefore we express our happiness with it. This is a Bill that has gone through many changes already. Your Lordships have heard this afternoon that the portents are perhaps that the Bill will go through many changes again. In the hope that some of those can come this afternoon and that this is a hopeful sign of the Government's willingness to think again about parts of the Bill, we welcome the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
3.15 p.m.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton Lord Wedderburn of Charlton moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 3, line 16, at end insert—
(" (5A) Where—

(a) a person brings a complaint or application under section 65(1) or section 77 of the 1975 Act, or a claim under section 2 of the Equal Pay Act 1970; and

(b) an industrial tribunal or a court makes a declaration, award, order or other judgment in favour of that person by reason, wholly or in part, that a term in a collective agreement or a rule made by an employer is void, unenforceable or otherwise unlawful by virtue of this section,

that person or any other appropriate person may report the matter to the Secretary of State.
(5B) Where a person has reported a matter to the Secretary of State in accordance with subsection (5A) above, the Secretary of
422
State or any other appropriate person may refer that collective agreement or, as the case may be, that rule or the rules of which that rule forms a part, to the Central Arbitration Committee constituted under section 10 of the Employment Protection Act 1975, to declare what amendments need to be made so as to remove discrimination on grounds of sex and the date or dates on which amendments are to have effect, not being in any case earlier than the date of the reference to the committee.
(5C) In subsections (5A) and (5B) above, the appropriate persons are—

(a) in the case of a collective agreement, an employer or a trade union party to it;

(b) in the case of a rule, the employer who made it or a trade union recognised by him in respect of persons to whom it applies within subsection (1)(b) above;

(c) in either case, the Equal Opportunities Commission.

(5D) Where the Central Arbitration Committee has declared what amendments need to be made under subsection (5B) above then, in so far as terms and conditions of employment of any person are dependent upon the collective agreement or the rule or rules, whether by way of contract or otherwise, they shall be ascertained by reference to the collective agreement or, as the case may be, the rule or rules as so amended.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a matter of substance which arises from your Lordships' discussion in Committee on 11th March, especially in cols. 535 to 553. My noble friend Lady Turner moved an amendment to restore the jurisdiction of the Central Arbitration Committee in a form that would be suitable to this Bill rather than its complete repeal as a jurisdiction, which is effected by this Bill by the repeal of Section 3 of the Equal Pay Act 1970. That proposal to your Lordships was negatived in Committee. The present amendment is a half-way house to deal, as we see it, with an acceptance of the Government's view as then expressed, plus the problem which still remains, having accepted it. The issue arises because of the form of the Bill chosen by the Government to comply with the 1984 judgment of the European Court of Justice in respect of collective agreements and employers' rules—what used to be called employers' pay structures under the Equal Pay Act, but more broadly employers' rules—which turn out to be discriminatory on grounds of sex.
The method in Clause 2—we have never complained of this basic method—is to make all these, if they are discriminatory, unlawful under Section 77 of the 1975 Act as though they were contracts which are also made unlawful under that section if they are discriminatory. If they turn out to be discriminatory it is unlikely, as your Lordships' debates have already shown, that direct discrimination will be very much the problem. The problem is indirect discrimination, because indirect discrimination which is unintended is the problem likely to arise in such rules and in such collective agreements. Indeed, persons of reasonable and honest views can often disagree about what constitutes indirect sex discrimination. It is a difficult matter. Where persons of reasonable and honest views can disagree, lawyers can have violent argument. The problem is complex and somewhat uncertain. Where that is so, enforcement of the law and its economical enforcement acquires a new and important aspect.
The Secretary of State said on Second Reading on 27th February, at col. 1179, that the effect of Clause 2 would be to make void any term of a collective agreement or rule made by an employer which was discriminatory. He said at the same column that he thought this would not have very important practical effects for two reasons; that the negotiators would

423
avoid discrimination (we agree that would happen in the vast majority of cases); and, secondly, that the individual employee who suffered discrimination could take a case to an industrial tribunal under the general provisions of the 1975 Act. We agree with that.
In Committee, at col. 537, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, said that there is no specific enforcement mechanism provided in Clause 2 because none is necessary. He went on to say that such provisions would simply be void and could be cured in the way suggested by negotiation or, if the employer would not agree, this could be,
"a good way of putting pressure on employers. They [unions] can support an individual employee affected by the offending agreement in a complaint to an industrial tribunal".
That was part of the Government's insistence that the effective enforcement would be in the industrial tribunal. So far, we can and must travel with the Government because our different way of doing things was defeated in Committee.
But what happens if the step of a case to the industrial tribunal is taken in regard to a set of internal undertakings rules (to use the European phrase) or a collective agreement which affects thousands of workers? The Government had an answer to this and it is here that we say the Government should think again. The answer was given by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, at col. 538, when he said:
"If the employer is intransigent"—
in regard to such a case that involved many workers—
"the union still has at its disposal, as it has had all along, the weapon of backing a whole string of tribunal cases".—[Official Report, 11/3/86: cols. 537–38.]
Albeit the individual worker's right to go to tribunal is important, albeit we must accept that that must be the primary method of enforcement—and we do so accept because of the decision in Committee; that is the reason for our subsection (5A) in our Amendment No. 3—we think that where there is such a case it is surely reasonable to say that where negotiation has not succeeded in ironing out perhaps the disagreement as to what is the discriminatory clause, there really should be the option of a different way of easing the industrial problem for both the employer and the union apart from a whole string of 2,000 individual industrial tribunal cases.
If the noble Lord the Secretary of State has one thing engraved upon him—not upon his tombstone, but as he marches forward—it is not "Calais", it is "Burdens on Business". What could be a greater burden on business than to insist that in any case where discrimination arises by reason of this Bill every single case must go through the industrial tribunal. That does not make sense, and I am glad to get some indication from the Secretary of State that he is not going to say that it does. If it does not, then, with one other proviso, our case is nearly made.
The other proviso is that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, said at col. 539 of the Official Report at the Committee stage:
"The revision of discriminatory collective agreements is surely best left to the experts; that is, to the parties who originally negotiated them".
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And he left it there. But he was answered by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, who said (in the same column):
"It is quite unreasonable, not to say naive, to assume that it can be left entirely to the negotiators to see that the matter is properly handled".
And one reason for that is the difficulty of an assessment of indirect discrimination in employers' rules or in agreements.
There are other expert bodies. The EOC (the Equal Opportunities Commission) is an expert body and that is why in our proposed halfway house structure we suggest that it should have a role in referring the matter to the Central Arbitration Committee after the matter has been reported to and considered by the Secretary of State. The Central Arbitration Committee itself is an expert body. It has a reputation which is unblemished and which the Government more than once have told us in these debates they do not wish to attack. At one stage I was guilty of the thought that the Government were hostile to the CAC, as it is usually known in the trade, though I am told by the Secretary of State in debate and by other Ministers that that is not so.
I have the highest regard for the CAC. There is the body to deal with the issue if the parties wish to put it to it. What could be more sensible, while accepting that the industrial tribunal judgment must be the first stage, because that is what the Government insisted upon in Committee and that is what we accept in this amendment, than enacting at least the option of referring to the Central Arbitration Committee on industrial relations structure which has been revealed to have some aspect of discrimination, albeit no doubt unintended, and to have its help where the parties wish it in order to solve the problem rather than wasting the cost and expense of thousands of individual industrial tribunal cases? However, I hasten to add that our amendment would not take away from any individual employee the right to go to a tribunal on any occasion which he or she deemed right and proper.
There is a final point, and I shall put it in a sentence. There is I think a lingering doubt as to whether the clause fully meets the judgment of the European Court at Luxembourg. I put it no higher than that. But there is the issue of whether the absence of a procedure for enforcement, apart from the industrial tribunal cases, really will satisfy the Luxembourg Court for all time. Indeed, it would be a brave person who could say that anything would satisfy the Luxembourg Court for all time. But there is a doubt among those who disagree in the area; and if that were added to our case, I would say that we are moving an amendment which surely makes industrial sense and, as a footnote, would surely cure that doubt. I beg to move.
Lord Denning: My Lords, may I support this amendment? I gather that the question of whether or not a collective agreement or rule made by an employer is void will come to be decided by an industrial tribunal. Many of these industrial tribunal cases are not reported. They might be reported in some trade paper or the like, but they may go unknown. Surely it is important that there should be some way of getting to know the determination of an industrial tribunal as to whether or not a particular agreement is void or a particular rule is void, and there ought to be

425
some record which is available just as in the law courts where we have reported cases.
Furthermore, rather than let many cases go time after time to an industrial tribunal or beyond, why not let the necessary amendment—because it will be necessary to have an amendment to a collective agreement or to a rule—be made straight away without people having to go to a tribunal? Let it be made by proper machinery which is suggested here; and I do not know whether there may be others made by the Central Arbitration Committee. I would support the principle of this amendment so that people should know; and it should be recorded what clauses are void or unenforceable and, if need be, amendments made.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, I am very grateful for the admission this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, that we are "marching forward". I trust that he means not only with regard to the elimination of discrimination for reasons of sex but also with regard to all other policies of Her Majesty's Government. Perhaps I may say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, that it is many decades since I was a law student, but I was always told that the reason cases are published by courts, the Court of Appeal and by your Lordships' House, is for a doctrine of precedent to apply. I am not sure that the doctrine of precedent should apply in cases of tribunals. This, I think, is a very real distinction.
But in any event the prospect of 2,000 individual cases (which the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, said will be a burden on business) should provide an incentive to employers to renegotiate. Negotiation and renegotiation are ways for business to protect itself from burdens rather than having those burdens laid upon it.
Regrettably, I was not present when your Lordships discussed this clause at Committee stage, but I have read carefully the Hansard report. I must confess to being somewhat puzzled by some of the things that I read. The noble Baroness, Lady Seear, called my noble friend Lord Trefgarne "naïve" for arguing that trade unions would seek to remove discrimination from collective agreements when it came to their notice. She spoke about collusion between employers and male-dominated trade unions to continue discriminatory practices. Other noble Lords opposite supported her and I suspect that many still think so.
How far the suspicion may have been well founded in the past I shall not presume to say. But it has been a major aim of this Government to establish and strengthen democratic rights for individual members within trade unions. I hope that women trade union members will use their secret votes in union elections, now guaranteed by law, to get themselves leaders who will be genuinely committed to equal opportunities; and there are signs that this is already happening. The Financial Times of 3rd April reported that the first elections held by APEX under the Trade Union Act 1984 have resulted in women gaining another three seats on the executive, giving them five out of 16 instead of two out of 16 in a union which has 55 per cent. female members.
It has also been suggested that Clause 2 may not meet the requirements of the European Community
426
equal treatment directive. The very purpose of the clause is to implement a European Court ruling and we have naturally satisfied ourselves that we are doing that. A copy of the Bill was sent in February to the European Commission, which initiated the proceedings against the United Kingdom, and I do not think that it would have hesitated to tell me if it thought that the Bill was not remedying the breach of that directive. The directive states that:
"any provisions contrary to the principle of equal treatment which are included in collective agreements … shall be, or may be declared, null and void or may be amended".
There is thus a choice of methods for implementing the directive in relation to collective agreements, and the Government have chosen to provide that unlawful discriminatory provisions shall be null and void.
It was suggested that the clause merely says that unenforceable terms of collective agreements are unenforceable if they are discriminatory. I grant noble Lords opposite the fact that the directive makes relatively little sense in the United Kingdom context. That is because it was designed for the European Community as a whole, many of whose member states have a system of legally binding collective agreements.
3.30 p.m.
We do not need a new system of enforcement for sex discrimination cases and the European Court ruling did not suggest this. Its judgment was essentially a technical one and we are implementing it with this Bill. The court accepted that Section 77 of the Sex Discrimination Act implemented the directive in relation to legally binding collective agreements, but held that the lack of corresponding provision for non-binding agreements meant the directive was not fully implemented. In our view, the court saw a formal voiding provision as an important presentational measure which would set the tone for collective agreements and filter through to practical results on the ground. This change implements the court's judgment and the Government do not see the need to establish a special enforcement procedure beyond what is required of us.
As soon as the Bill comes into force, terms in collective agreements will be void in so far as they lead to discrimination which is unlawful under the Sex Discrimination Act or the Equal Pay Act. In such situations renegotiation of the agreement will be necessary to fill the void. The Government consider that such renegotiation is best left to parties to the agreement, not to the decision of an outside body (however expert it may be) unless the parties both want this. There are, of course, long-standing arrangements for voluntary arbitration by the CAC. The CAC's function under the Equal Pay Act has not been used for some years and we see no reason to revive it. We already have the industrial tribunals; we already have the Equal Opportunities Commission, with its power of formal investigation into any matter connected with the elimination of discrimination and the fostering of equal opportunities; and we do not need the CAC to have an enforcement role in this area as well.
I appreciate that this amendment is more limited in scope than the one discussed at Committee stage. But I still believe it is inappropriate. As the amendment recognises, individuals who suffer unlawful discrimi-

427
nation in employment (whether or not as a result of a collective agreement) already have the right to complain to an industrial tribunal and obtain redress. If the individual wins and the negotiating parties still insist on maintaining a collective agreement which gave rise to the discrimination, there are likely to be more cases on the same issue. Industrial tribunal decisions on discrimination are published with reasons and are available to the public for consultation, even though not all of them are reported in the law reports. The employer will then be faced not only with the expense of trying to defend such cases before a tribunal but possibly with compensation, too. Indeed, such a case would be a prime candidate for a pre-hearing assessment and an award of costs against the employer for acting "frivolously, vexatiously or otherwise unreasonably" if he persists to a full hearing. I doubt if any employer would be foolish enough to expose his or her firm to such wanton risks. The new voiding provision will give an added incentive to renegotiate the discriminatory agreement with all speed.
Indeed, I suspect that the renegotiation would be completed more speedily than a reference to the CAC. Let me give an example. Suppose a collective agreement provides for women to work 38 hours per week and be paid accordingly, and for men to work 40 hours per week and be paid accordingly. A women who would prefer the longer hours (or a man who would prefer the shorter hours) takes a tribunal case and wins it. The employer is naturally concerned that he might lose more cases, so negotiations take place. The employer and trade union obviously need to find out how other employees in that workplace feel about the issue. Are they all happy, except the one who took the case? Do they prefer 38 hours, 40 hours or indeed 39 hours? Would a free choice of hours be feasible in the context of that firm? There are many factors to consider, but at least they do not have to worry about all the other firms which may be covered by the original collective agreement before reaching a new agreeement for their particular workplace. The CAC, under the proposals before us, has power to influence the contracts of employment of every employer and employee covered by the collective agreement. It is not to be supposed that the CAC would be so unreasonable as to take a decision without consulting extensively. But meanwhile the particular problems of individual firms could have been resolved quickly and satisfactorily, if necessary with a variety of solutions, at local level.
Not only is the scheme proposed bureaucratic; paradoxically, it has to become even more bureaucratic and inflexible before it can work at all. We should need to prescribe what happens if there is an appeal against the tribunal decisions, for example. We should need to prescribe how soon after a tribunal decision the case can be referred to the CAC. We should need to prescribe what happens if there is another tribunal case pending. And what happens if there is more than one union party to the collective agreement and they do not agree? As the amendment is drafted, the case may be referred to the CAC immediately after the tribunal decision (so long as the Secretary of State has been notified) with no period allowed for negotiation or conciliation or lodging an
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appeal. I have to say to the House that this scheme can only complicate and delay the removal of discriminatory terms from collective agreements.
The Government have assured my noble friend Lady Platt that we shall issue notes of guidance for employers and trade unions about the effects of the Bill on collective agreements. We have said that we shall urge negotiators to examine all agreements to which they are party and to eliminate any terms which give rise to unlawful discrimination, either directly or indirectly. The Equal Opportunities Commission will be fully consulted about this guidance, and I know my noble friend is anxious for us to alert bargaining parties to sources of outside help which they can seek on a voluntary basis.
I hope negotiators will start the review process even before this Bill comes into force. If they are not able to decide what action to take about an agreement, one or both of the parties can request advice or assistance from ACAS or, of course, the EOC. A discussion with either body could well overcome the problem. If not, and if both parties agreed, ACAS could appoint an arbitrator or even refer a possible dispute to the CAC. The EOC code of practice will be of considerable help to employers and trade unions in determining what kinds of practice may constitute unlawful discrimination.
I hope I have been able to explain why the Government regard this amendment as unnecessary and why we shall, if it is pressed, oppose it.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, I very much regret that the Minister does not feel able to accept this amendment. I have listened with great care to the arguments that he has put forward, but I am afraid that I find them totally unconvincing. If I may say so with respect, they are based on a view of what goes on in industry which is not quite realistic. The noble Lord referred to the idea that everybody will take a case to the industrial tribunal and that industrial tribunal results will be published and will be available. It is not every woman—it is very far from every woman—who, in these days of unemployment, is really prepared to take her employer to a tribunal. It is a difficult thing to do. And as for the idea that the law reports will always be read by all and sundry up and down the country, that seems to be an unrealistic assumption of a very extreme order.
Then the noble Lord says that because women are now getting in rather larger numbers on to the executives of unions, they need not fear collusion. I am not making any accusation against trade unions when I say that collusion between male employers and male trade unions has been a common experience; and I doubt whether anybody who is familiar with the industrial scene is going to deny that. Nor do I believe that there has been a sudden conversion as the result of certain legislation on the part of the Government which means that women are in fact going to get a better deal inside the trade union movement than they have in the past. If the noble Lord wishes, although I do not want to burden the House, I can give examples of the way in which that collusion in fact works. I am totally unconvinced that there is a complete commitment to equal opportunity on both sides of

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industry of the kind the noble Lord now seems to think is the case.
My Lords, I simply cannot understand why, with a proved and approved system through the CAC, able to deal with this matter, the noble Lord persists in refusing to do it and to rest instead on the use of industrial tribunals with all the consequences that the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, has spelt out in detail; and I hope very much that since the Government have totally rejected this amendment we shall be able to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, I found the noble Lord the Secretary of State's answer as disappointing as did the noble Baroness Lady Seear. I wish to make seven brief points about it. First, the European Court of Justice judgment did not, with great respect, regard the need to legislate on the equal treatment directive as merely presentational. On the contrary, if the Secretary of State looks at the passage in the judgment at page 215 of the Industrial Court Reports for 1984 he will find that the court put the terms of the directive rather differently from the directive itself, which of course that court is known sometimes to do. It said that there is a need to ensure that the directive is completely effective, and that requires that clauses in such agreements which are incompatible with the obligations imposed by the directives may be annulled, amended or eliminated by appropriate means. That can mean a number of different things.
I merely say to the Secretary of State that I do not think that he is well advised to believe that it is impossible to think that Clause 2 necessarily falls within that interpretation of the directive, so there is substance in the point. That was not our main point. I found the Secretary of State's reply astonishing in this respect: that of course these matters were put to him in December by more than one body, as I understand it, but certainly by the Trades Union Congress. Then it was put to him that there would be a need for either some procedure to the Central Arbitration Committee or possibly a procedure by way of class action, which is something we know little of in this country but which might well be considered. It is not our amendment. The Government went away to consider both of those, not ruling them out, not rejecting them, as he has now done, as impossible. Yet in Committee and here again with a more moderate amendment we find that they cannot have it.
The third point is that as the Government's case has been developed in the course of this Bill we have seen that there is an insistence upon the individual employee tribunal action as the only form of enforcement that they will admit. It is the only form that they will admit. Individualism can be a very practical and noble principle but it can also be a dogmatic fetish. It really begins to look as though the Government's adherence to the notion of individual employment enforcement procedures is the latter rather than the former.
Fourthly, as to the string of industrial tribunal cases, the noble Lord said, yes, there may well be the possibility of a string of industrial tribunal cases but that will be an incentive to renegotiate. It may be; we do not deny that. He says employers are not foolish
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enough to go on with other cases when one has been shown to be a matter of discrimination. He gave a very simple example of 38 hours and 40 hours. It would be nice if life was as simple as that. There are more complex considerations. We tried to develop these. There will be individual cases which are not necessarily within the previous individual case. In the 2,000 cases, there will be at least 400 or 500 that need to be tested. Many will be women employees who do not feel able in this labour market that the Government have partly created to go to the tribunal to enforce their rights. It is a paradox that in a labour market where the Government have created weakness in the individual employee they now insist that the only way for people to enforce their rights should be through individual action within the tribunals.
Fifthly, the noble Lord went over a large amount of ground which was, with great respect, difficult of relevance, such as the democratic rights of members within unions. He twitted us with the fact that our amendment was not wholly well drafted. There could be an appeal from the tribunal: true. There should be conciliation and negotiation periods after the judgment: true. We could deal with those matters in five minutes and I suspect the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, could do it on the back of an envelope in two minutes for the noble Lord the Minister if he really wanted to have the scheduled bits added in.
Sixthly, when the noble Lord says that we do not need a new system of enforcement, that really is rather rich. The Central Arbitration Committee is there. It has been there since 1965. Indeed, it has been there longer because it is the successor of the Industrial Court of 1919. It is an established part of our industrial relations and our industrial relations legal system and the Government are depriving it of jurisdiction by this very Bill. There is nothing about the new system of enforcement. It is the Government who are tearing up a very useful mechanism in our industrial life. It is the Government who, by refusing to accept an adaptation of those long-standing procedures, are creating cost for workers, employers and unions alike.
The seventh point is that the reply was so disappointing that we do indeed, as the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, suggested, intend to test the opinion of the House.
3.46 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 3) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 81; Not-Contents, 93.

DIVISION NO. 1

CONTENTS

Amherst, E.

Crawshaw of Aintree, L.

Ardwick, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

Attlee, E.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Bernstein, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Bottomley, L.

Denning, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Diamond, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Ennals, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

431

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Oram, L.

Fitt, L.

Paget of Northampton, L.

Gallacher, L.

Phillips, B.

Galpern, L.

Platt of Writtle, B.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Hampton, L.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Prys-Davies, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Rathcreedan, L.

Heycock, L.

Rea, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Hughes, L.

Rochester, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Jeger, B.

Seear, B.

Jenkins of Putney, L.

Serota, B.

John-Mackie, L.

Silkin of Dulwich, L.

Kearton, L.

Stallard, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Leatherland, L.

Strauss, L.

Listowel, E.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Tordoff, L.

McCarthy, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

McNair, L.

Underhill, L.

Mayhew, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Mishcon, L.

Walston, L.

Molloy, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Morton of Shuna, L.

Wheatley, L.

Mulley, L.

White, B.

Murray of Epping Forest, L.

Wigoder, L.

Nicol, B.

Wilson of Rievaulx, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ampthill, L.

Long, V.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Beloff, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Belstead, L.

Mancroft, L.

Bessborough, E.

Marley, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Merrivale, L.

Bruce-Gardyne, L.

Milverton, L.

Butterworth, L.

Molson, L.

Caithness, E.

Mountgarret, V.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Norrie, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Cox, B.

Onslow, E.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Orkney, E.

Davidson, V.

Pender, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Porritt, L.

Derwent, L.

Portland, D.

Drumalbyn, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Dudley, B.

Rodney, L.

Duncan-Sandys, L.

Saint Brides, L.

Effingham, E.

St. Davids, V.

Ellenborough, L.

Sandford, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Seebohm, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Selkirk, E.

Elton, L.

Shannon, E.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Shaughnessy, L.

Gainford, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Gardner of Parkes, B.

Somers, L.

Glanusk, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Strathspey, L.

Greenway, L.

Sudeley, L.

Gridley, L.

Swansea, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Terrington, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Trenchard, V.

Hooper, B.

Trumpington, B.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Kaberry of Adel, L.

Vickers, B.

Kimball, L.

Vivian, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Ward of Witley, V.

Kitchener, E.

Whitelaw, V.

Lauderdale, E.

Young, B.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Young of Graffham, L.

Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
Clause 5 [Repeal of Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act 1954]:
3.54 p.m.
Baroness Turner of Camden Baroness Turner of Camden moved Amendment No. 4:
Leave out Clause 5 and insert the following new clause:
("Amendment of Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act 1954.
5.—(1) Section 11(2) of the Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act 1954 shall cease to have effect.
(2) Part VI of the Factories Act 1961 shall not apply to any woman to whom the Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act 1954 applies.").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, similar amendments were moved by me and the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, in Committee. I withdrew my amendment in Committee because I thought that hers was rather better, but I think that neither of us was satisfied by the response of the noble Lord the Minister at that time and both indicated that the matter would be brought back on Report. That is what I am now doing.
As I understand it, the Government intend their clause, which is still in the Bill, to remove all restrictions on night work in the baking industry. They believe that there is an anomaly with regard to the baking industry, in that the restriction in the 1954 Act applies only to men and not to women. There are of course two options available. One is to do what the Government clearly intend and remove restrictions altogether, and the other is to apply the 1954 Act provisions to men as well as to women.
I favour the latter approach, and that is what my amendment seeks to do. I believe that the Government favour the first approach because they believe that the Act is outdated and that it is one of the burdens on business to which reference was made earlier by my noble friend Lord Wedderburn which the Government are apparently so anxious to remove. Clearly, the Act is seen as a restriction on the right of employers to do as they please. It is, however, a union view, and one which I believe has already been put to the Government and ignored, that if the 1954 Act is abolished there will be a number of very undesirable consequences affecting workers and employers.
First, it will open up the possibility of permanent night work. That could lead to a loss of jobs. The introduction of permanent night shifts, particularly in some areas such as dispatch, would negate the need for alternative shifts. One federation empoloyer has suggested that, resulting from such a measure, job losses in two major firms could amount to 2,000. Plainly, job losses on that scale would be resisted by the union. It is of course the union's function to protect its members' jobs and I should not have thought it a good idea at a time of substantial unemployment to encourage any measure that would result in job losses.
Secondly, such deregulation will lead to a free-for-all. Unions and employers could thus be caught up in a series of confrontations. The existence of the 1954 Act has in fact assisted industrial relations generally in this industry. It has provided a background against which acceptable agreements have been negotiated.
The provision will not improve conditions in the industry. There is the danger that it will harm business, reduce employment opportunities, worsen conditions for workers in an industry where hours of work are already longer than in most industries and generally lead to a worsening of industrial relations. That will not improve matters either for employers or employees and ultimately it will be worse for the consumer.
The more sensible and farsighted employers themselves know that, and that is why there has been no pressure from either side of the industry for a change in the 1954 Act. The measure has been introduced entirely by the Government as a part of their "lifting the burden" philosophy, and, because the Government wanted to utilise this opportunity, has brought in the Bill—a Bill that arises from quite different considerations—the EC requirements in regard to non-discrimination in collective agreements.
It is quite clear, and this also arose during discussion in Committee, that protection is still needed in the industry. There are cowboy operators in this industry as in others. Their activities are opposed not only by the unions but also by responsible employers in the industry. During the course of debate in Committee attention was drawn to operations such as those of cowboy operators in the Barnsley area, where they have been employing 14 year- olds and generally exploiting those who work for them. At present, there is some form of restriction in the 1954 Act. If it disappears, such outfits will not be restrained by any requirements whatsoever.
On the international front, within the EC there are countries—this was referred to in Committee—where there are restrictions on night working for both men and women. It is regarded as a health hazard, and with some justification. The International Confederation of Free Trade Unions recently made a survey of the operation of ILO Convention 98, which, as your Lordships well know, prohibits night working for women in industry. It concluded that the convention should not only be retained but that night working should be banned for both men and women and exemptions granted only in the case of necessity and under conditions which guarantee the health and safety of such workers and protect them against exploitation.
In Committee, your Lordships agreed to an amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Wedderburn which might make provisions of that kind through the concept of the equal protection order. It may, therefore, be argued that it is no longer necessary to proceed with this amendment because it has already been partly covered by the amendment of my noble friend Lord Wedderburn, which will be part of the Bill. I should like to hear from the Minister on that point. I should like to know what consideration has been given to it because I want to make absolutely certain that baking is covered. It is for that reason that I am putting the amendment before your Lordship's this afternoon.
As I said in the discussion in Committee, the equality argument can be satisfied by extending the protection of the 1954 Act to women as well as to men, which is what the Equal Opportunities Commission originally proposed. The Government
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should heed what has been said to them by those directly concerned in the industry and by a specialist body like the Equal Opportunities Commission. I therefore beg to move my amendment.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, and I agree with her when she says that it is the duty of unions to save jobs. Of course it is, and I hoped very much that the unions would in their wisdom have seen fit to support the Government's position in this matter, since it is the continuation of jobs within the industry with which we are concerned. Nor should we allow ourselves to be side-tracked by individual cases of employing 14 year-olds within the baking industry. That is clearly wrong under other legislation and is not covered by the matter which we are discussing this afternoon, which is fully in the spirit of the Sex Discrimination Bill and is concerned with the removal and elimination of employment practices based upon sex. Surely we should seek the elimination of both protections in this instance.
Clause 5 of this Bill repeals the Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act 1954, which currently places restrictions on the night working only of men who work in bakeries. As my noble friend Lord Trefgarne emphasised when this clause and an amendment very like this one were considered in Committee, the Act came into being not so much to protect bakery workers' health and safety, but to find a remedy for the difficulties the industry had faced in reaching sensible and workable collective agreements on hours of work at that time.
Women were excluded from this Act when it was passed in 1954, as they were barred from night work by factories legislation which Clause 4 of this Bill will repeal. If this Act remains in its present form while the restrictions on women's hours go, men's employment in night baking will be controlled while women's employment will be entirely unregulated. The need to avoid this anomaly made this the moment to ask whether the 1954 Act had any continued usefulness. At the heart of the Act is Section 9, which has enabled my predecessors to grant exemptions where they were satisfied that a voluntary agreement exists which makes the application of the Act's restrictions on hours of work unnecessary. More than two-thirds of the industry's workers are now working hours set out in collective agreements which have been the basis of such exemptions. The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, would keep the current Act in force and extend its provisions to women and to young people.
Instead of the repeal of statutory protection for men and the protection of existing male employees through their contracts, the amendment would give statutory protection for men and women. One undesirable, and perhaps unintended, result of the amendment is that young people would be covered by both the Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act and the Factories Act. A side effect of the new clause would be to remove the contractual protection for men provided by Clause 7 of the Bill. Since this clause was inserted by your Lordships in Committee, the matter will now go to another place for consideration there. This goes also for Clause 3, which, in relation to the Baking Industry

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(Hours of Work) Act, sits unhappily with this amendment.
Turning now to the substance of the amendment, we were surprised during Committee to hear that repeal of the Act as proposed by the Government, instead of its extension, had no support. We consulted widely both employers' federations and trade unions in the baking industry before reaching our conclusions last year. The master bakers had last considered this matter in plenary session at their 1980 conference when it was decided to abandon their campaign for repeal—a very different thing from the opposition that has been suggested. The Federation of Bakers, whose members include many of the biggest plant bakers, told us in December that they remain firmly committed to repeal of the Act. The Cake and Biscuit Alliance welcome the proposal. We heard, too, from the Co-operative Union Limited's Parliamentary Committee that they had no objections to this repeal.
Extending the Act to women would clearly conflict with our policy of removing burdens on business to encourage the spirit of enterprise. And let us make no mistake—improving the climate for enterprise generally is essential if we wish to see the present rise in the number of jobs continue. We must also have good industrial relations if enterprise is to flourish. During the years before 1954, the two sides of this industry had failed to establish satisfactory collective bargaining machinery for setting hours and conditions of work and this had fuelled the demand for this Act.
But, the Act has now been in operation for more than 30 years and there has been ample opportunity during that time for the industry to put its house in order. We believe from the evidence available to us that this has, in fact, happened. The majority of the industry's workers are now covered by the terms of collective agreements for which exemptions have been agreed by my predecessors. We believe that today's circumstances in the baking industry, with its much greater element of plant baking for which collective bargaining machinery is now well established, make the current legislation largely redundant and ripe for repeal. Hours of work in other sectors of the economy are, after all, a matter for collective or individual bargaining, requiring no statutory underpinning.
It has been put to us that without the Act the health and safety of bakery workers would suffer, and that for this reason it should be extended to women rather than be repealed in its entirety. But there is no convincing evidence that the Act in today's circumstances achieves useful safeguards in this respect. It has been argued that repeal would result in more night work, longer hours and job losses. But there is no good reason to believe that employers will want to impose substantially different hours of work. On the contrary, night work is costly and is kept to the minimum consistent with customer needs. For all these reasons, I urge that this amendment be withdrawn.
Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I am very disappointed to hear what the noble Lord has had to say this afternoon. I had hoped that in the time that has elapsed since we had our discussion in Committee the Government would perhaps have rethought their position so far as repeal of the 1954 legislation is
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concerned. I have to say that, categorically, the unions are against the repeal of this legislation. It is true that they were consulted, and my information is that they made their views known to the Government at the time. That is still their position. They are against the repeal. They believe that it will not help the job situation. On the contrary, they think that the absence of the background legislation, against which they have been negotiating all these years, will be extremely bad for industrial relations in this industry and will lead to a worsening of relations, which cannot possibly help the employers, the employees or ultimately the consumers, in so far as the baking industry is concerned.
It is not true to say, I think, that this is the only industry where there are special provisions. There are many industries where there are special provisions governing various kinds of working conditions, and the baking industry is no exception in that regard. But there is a special history in baking to which successive committees have had regard and the 1954 Act was introduced only after several committees had sat and made recommendations. The Equal Opportunities Commisssion has considered the matter relatively recently and, as a result of its consideration, recommended not that protection for men should be entirely repealed but that the protection should be extended to women. That would answer the equality argument. In view of what the Minister said this afternoon, I intend to press this amendment to a Division.
4.8 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 88; Not-Contents, 91.

DIVISION NO. 2

CONTENTS

Amherst, E.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Ardwick, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Attlee, E.

Heycock, L.

Banks, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Bernstein, L.

Hughes, L.

Bottomley, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Jeger, B.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Jenkins of Putney, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

John-Mackie, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Leatherland, L.

Crawshaw of Aintree, L.

Listowel, E.

David, B. [Teller.]

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Longford, E.

Denington, B.

McCarthy, L.

Diamond, L.

McNair, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Mayhew, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Mishcon, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Molloy, L.

Falkender, B.

Morton of Shuna, L.

Falkland, V.

Mulley, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Murray of Epping Forest, L.

Fitt, L.

Nicol, B.

Foot, L.

Oram, L.

Gallacher, L.

Phillips, B.

Galpern, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Platt of Writtle, B.

Grey, E.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Hampton, L.

Hanworth, V.

Prys-Davies, L.

437

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Tordoff, L.

Rochester, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Sainsbury, L.

Underhill, L.

Seear, B.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Serota, B.

Walston, L.

Shackleton, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Silkin of Dulwich, L.

Wheatley, L.

Stallard, L.

White, B.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Wigoder, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Strauss, L.

Wilson of Rievaulx, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Ypres, E.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.

Ampthill, L.

Long, V.

Auckland, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Mancroft, L.

Beloff, L.

Marley, L.

Belstead, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Bessborough, E.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Merrivale, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Milverton, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Mountevans, L.

Butterworth, L.

Mountgarret, V.

Caithness, E.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Norrie, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Onslow, E.

Cox, B.

Orkney, E.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Davidson, V.

Pender, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Plummer of St Marylebone, L.

Denning, L.

Derwent, L.

Porritt, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Portland, D.

Effingham, E.

Rankeillour, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Rodney, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Sandford, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Seebohm, L.

Elton, L.

Selkirk, E.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Shannon, E.

Gainford, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Glanusk, L.

Somers, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Strathspey, L.

Greenway, L.

Sudeley, L.

Gridley, L.

Swansea, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Teviot, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Teynham, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Hooper, B.

Trenchard, V.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Trumpington, B.

Kaberry of Adel, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Kimball, L.

Vickers, B.

Kinloss, Ly.

Vivian, L.

Kitchener, E.

Ward of Witley, V.

Lane-Fox, B.

Whitelaw, V.

Lauderdale, E.

Young, B.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Young of Graffham, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.16 p.m.
Baroness Platt of Writtle Baroness Platt of Writtle moved Amendment No. 5:
After Clause 7, insert the following new clause:
("Change of hours of work.
.—(1) If an employer proposes to make a substantial change in the hours of work of any of his employees he shall be under a duty to consider the health, safety, welfare and interests of those employees (particularly employees with domestic and family responsibilities) and to make appropriate provision for their health, safety and welfare having regard to the nature and size of his business.
(2) The Health and Safety Commission after consultation with the Equal Opportunities Commission may make a code of practice containing practical guidance on the duty created by subsection (1) above and the provisions of section 16 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 shall apply to the making of a code of practice under this subsection as they apply to the making of a code under that section of that Act.
(3) In any proceedings before an industrial tribunal the extent to which an employer has carried out his duty under this section shall be relevant in determining the reasonableness of his actions.")
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, noble Lords will remember that I raised the question of a code of practice both at Second Reading and at Committee stage in the form of an amendment. The amendment suggested that ACAS might be the agent for formulating a code of practice. My predecessor as chairman of the Equal Opportunities Commission, the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, favoured the Health and Safety Commission as the nominating body. The noble Baroness, Lady Seear, while supporting the idea of a code of practice, questioned whether one could have a code of practice that did not interpret legislation.
This amendment relates the proposed code of practice to a duty on employers when changing hours of work substantially to consider the health, safety, welfare and interests of those employees, particularly those with domestic and family responsibilities, and to make appropriate provision for them, men as well as women, in a proper spirit of equality. The wording comes from Section 97(7) of the Factories Act 1961, now to be repealed, which states:
"In granting any application under this section the Minister shall impose such conditions as he considers necessary for the purpose of safeguarding the welfare and interests of the persons employed on the system of shifts, and in considering any such conditions shall, in particular, consider the expediency of requiring the provision of suitable accommodation for clothing and of facilities for meals and of transport facilities for workers residing at a distance and, in the case of young persons, of reasonable facilities for attending courses of further education".
As my noble friend Lord Trefgarne pointed out at Committee stage, the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 allows the Health and Safety Commission to prepare codes of practice. So we have dropped the idea of ACAS in the commission's favour and related it to their normal machinery in Section 16 of the Act. At Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Young quoted the Equal Opportunities Commission document of 1979—this rather thick and heavy document—Health and Safety Legislation: Should we Distinguish between Men and Women? and stated that the commission's recommendations in part prompted this anti-discriminatory measure in the present Bill. As my noble friend stated, the commission at that time, with a minority dissenting, decided there was no longer justification for maintaining legal provisions in hours of work which require men and women to be treated differently and recommended that the legislation be removed or, where health, safety and welfare demanded, replaced so that it applies equally to men and women. It particularly recommended then that minimum standards of welfare should be specified and that a code of practice should be agreed that could be used at tribunals.
The amendment now before the House therefore closely follows the commission's original recommendations of 1979, so that with the improved job

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opportunities allowed to women by the removal of restrictions they should not find themselves, due to their domestic responsibilities, unable to take advantage of those opportunities.
Our streets today are not safe at night. Muggings take place, unfortunately, of both men and women. The matters of meal breaks and rest periods and of domestic responsibilities are important to both men and women. In this clause, we have attempted to set the right balance between imposing a duty that is so restrictive as to make it difficult for employers to change hours of work and one that is so vague as to have no effect at all. The proposed duty only applies when an employer proposes to change hours of work substantially. We are not suggesting interference with existing arrangements otherwise. We expressly state that the nature and size of the business are to be taken into account so as not to put excessive burdens on small businesses.
There is no direct enforcement suggested and no need for the development of a new bureaucracy. However, like the Equal Opportunities Commission's own code of practice, the proposed code would be admissible in evidence if a complaint of dismissal or of constructive dismissal as a result of changes in hours of work were brought before an industrial tribunal, so that it could decide if an employer was acting reasonably in that respect when coming to its decision.
A few good employers lead the field, I am glad to say, in providing such a provision on a voluntary basis, so one might perhaps say that such employers do not need a code of practice. However, there are always the cowboys in any situation and they need the possibility or actuality of an industrial tribunal finding against them to make them conform to reasonable standards for vulnerable employees. The middle group will vary between the two extremes. With the removal of restrictions, many will welcome an official standard or framework of guidance to help decide how to set up conditions of work that are reasonable in the changed circumstances.
I know that my noble friend is not on the side of the cowboys. I hope very much that he will accept the idea of this modified clause, so as to ensure good conditions of work for both men and women at a time of change. In the past, exemptions from the Act have been negotiated against the background of the Act's existence and under the eye of the factories inspectorate, which has ensured some degree of control.
In this House, considerable sympathy was expressed recently in favour of those employees affected by the proposed changes in legislation due to the Shops Bill, which led to an amendment in their favour. I hope that this amendment also will obtain the support of my noble friend the Minister and of your Lordships' House today, in order to give protection to members of the workforce who are in a vulnerable position at a time of substantial change. I beg to move.
Lord McCarthy: My Lords, we wish to support this amendment. As we understand it, and as the noble Baroness has said, the amendment is an attempt to return to the code of practice that very carefully and clearly seeks to take into account the objections that
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were made to this form of amendment when it was put down by the noble Baroness at the Committee stage.
I should like to say a few words about two aspects of this matter. First, what would be the position if this amendment were passed? Secondly, so far as we have heard from the Government on their own evidence—and we shall of course hear from the Secretary of State later—what is the case against a modest amendment of this kind? On the first point, I understand the noble Baroness to be saying with this amendment that employees would have a legal duty to consider the health, safety, welfare and interests of their employees—particularly in respect of their domestic and family responsibilities—when introducing substantial changes in hours of work.
If, for example, an employer employed a significant number of single parents, or employees who had relatives suffering from long-term sickness, or employees with a considerable number of young children whom they had to look after, or if he employed a large number of married women in part-time work, such an employer would be under a legal duty to consider the consequences of a significant and substantial change in hours of work from such employees' point of view.
The code of practice would help such employers in carrying out that responsibility, and it would seek to influence the way in which they sought to carry it out. It would give them examples of where it was reasonable and of where it was unreasonable to introduce certain patterns of change in hours of work. It would suggest what kind of alternatives might be offered to such employees when significant changes were made. The code of practice would suggest also what kind of transport arrangements, creche facilities, and so on, would be reasonable in the circumstances when making substantive changes to hours of work. The point we would make about all that is that we do not see how the Government can resist the notion that such a code of practice would, in this context, be useful. It would provide a set of guidelines and provisions that would advise and assist good employers in making substantial changes to hours of work.
The other aspect of the proposal is, as the noble Baroness has said, that there is no prescribed set of legal liabilities or levels of compensation stipulated under the amendment for failure to observe any of those duties. They would simply be taken into account before an industrial tribunal when calculating the test of reasonability. That is what these very modest proposals are intended to do. What possible arguments can the Government adduce against them?
What arguments did the Government adduce last time? The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, said on 11th March, at col. 614 of the Official Report, that the Government were against Amendment No. 29, by the noble Baroness, and he said why. The first point to make is that the noble Lord did not say much. He made a speech of about two minutes in length and of about 450 words, in which he stated that the Government were against this outdated and unnecessary measure. He reiterated all the phrases that the Secretary of State had used on Second Reading: outmoded, outdated, burdensome, out of place. In the case of the Secretary of State on Second Reading, he

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made mention five times of stopping sensible arrangements and of such an amendment being unnecessary.
However, in his two-minute speech of 450 words the noble Lord—as might be expected—did not have time to tell the Committee precisely why it was all outmoded, outdated, burdensome and unnecessary. We therefore have to ask whether the Government have anywhere provided evidence that such an amendment is unnecessary and indeed burdensome. The only evidence that the Government have supplied—and the Secretary of State is fond of quoting the title of that evidence if not the details of the evidence—is the Government's publication, Burdens on Business. The fact is that when one reads that remarkable document, one finds that it must be quite the most deplorably superficial survey. It is the most imperfect sample of any survey known to me. It uses some 200 quota samples and another imperfect sample of 85. A sample size of at least five times as much would be required before any reasonable conclusions could be drawn.
If one studies Burdens on Business, the remarkable thing is that it does not mention changes in hours of work, and regulations and restrictions on hours of work, at all. In fact, it says that legal regulations on business as a burden are only the third most important burden on business. A far more important burden on business is the activity of government in respect of the level of unemployment, the lack of capital investment or such things as VAT.
4.30 p.m.
In so far as anybody thinks about employment protection this is confined to a minority of this very small sample—some 29.5 per cent.—and only 4 per cent. of this small sample who considered employment protection to be some kind of burden on business mentioned it without a prompt. In other words, 96 per cent. never even thought of it until the government and the people carrying out the survey suggested it. Moreover, if one looks at the answers to the question it is difficult to believe that that 4 per cent. were not referring to unfair dismissal rather than to restrictions on hours. Therefore, there is absolutely no evidence whatever, except constant assertions, that a modest, small amendment of this kind simply proposing that there should be a code of practice where all these things are swept away would be regarded as a burden on business.
However, we must be fair. The fact is that the only decent argument against the amendment was not that put forward by the Minister during the Committee stage but the doubts expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, who said on 11th March, reported at col. 613 of Hansard:
"As I understand it, codes of practice are related to legislation. They are interpretative of legislation. As we know, they do not have the force of law but they are interpretative of legislation. If the amendments that have been passed this evening are accepted and remain in the legislation, then the code will of course be interpretative of the law including those amendments. But",
the noble Baroness added,
"since the Government are set to remove the fact of the legislation, I fail to see to what legislation the code of practice will relate".
I consider that to be a reasonable point to make about the code of practice in the Bill at this time.
However, I make three comments to the noble Baroness, and I think there are at least three answers which can be made. The first point is, as the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, said, we do have voluntary codes of practice. The EOC publishes voluntary codes of practice. The Department of Employment publishes, I see in the current edition of the Department of Employment Gazette, no less than, in effect, 16 guides to various aspects of the present employment legislation. They are all, in a way, voluntary codes of practice. Therefore, even if this code was imperfectly related to particular substantive penalties and offences in the Bill there is no reason why we should not give advice in this field.
Secondly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, said, it is reasonable to suggest that this code of practice, in the way suggested in the amendment, would be of use in cases of contructive dismissal. It may well be of assistance in determining reasonableness from the point of view of industrial tribunals in cases of constructive dismissal. Thirdly, we have amended the Bill. We have done so in two ways. We passed Amendment No. 9, which gives the Secretary of State the right to publish equal protection orders and a code of practice might be required for that purpose. Even more directly, we passed Amendment No. 10, and other subsequent amendments, which require a right of unfair dismissal and compensation for unfair dismissal for established employees after the passage of this Bill. Both those would give rise to liabilities and would provide a role for a code of practice.
Therefore, it seems to me that there is no substantive case advanced by the Government so far for opposing this amendment. The Secretary of State said earlier in this debate that he hoped we would be marching forward together. We like to march forward, and if people march with us that is jolly good. Some progress has been made, and provided it is sustained in another place—but I note the Secretary of State is rather hesitant to enter into that this afternoon—then we will have marched forward. However, on Second Reading the Secretary of State said that the Government saw this Bill as a way of achieving, as I understood him, four objectives. The question is whether those four objectives can be combined. One of the ways in which I suggest they could be combined is for the Government to accept this amendment.
The first objective was the removal of discrimination; the second was the promotion of opportunity, the third was the removal of restrictions on industry, and the fourth was the stimulation of competition in the labour market. As I said, the question is whether those four objectives can be combined. They can be achieved only if it is done very carefully and very precisely. This amendment is one of the ways in which we believe they can be combined. If the Government say that they cannot accept the amendment I suggest to the House that what they are really saying is that their primary interest is with the third and fourth of those objectives—the removal of restrictions on industry and the stimulation of competition—even at the cost of the promotion of equal opportunities.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, has quoted me from a previous stage of the

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Bill I should like to say that I accept the value of a voluntary code. The point I raised was, in fact, a technical point on what would be the standard of the code, having regard to the changes which would be made in the legislative pattern.
I am not, of course, privy to what the noble Lord the Minister is to say in reply, but I will make a guess and say that he will tell us that these matters are best dealt with through collective bargaining, that there is no need to have a code and that it can be left to negotiators to fix the conditions under which people work. He will no doubt also tell us that sensible, responsible employers will see to it that the conditions of work are of an order which is satisfactory from the point of view of the employee as well as the employer.
I accept that collective bargaining can do a very great deal in this field. I accept that a considerable number of employers will have the kind of conditions which are acceptable. However, legislation of this kind, not only now but throughout time, has been introduced not for the majority of responsible employers and not for the majority of industries in which there is well-established, well-respected and well-monitored collective agreements, but for the proportion of employers—no doubt a very small proportion—who go out on a wing and behave in a way which is discreditable to the industry and which is repudiated by the responsible employers. But they remain. There are "cowboys" in every industry. Legislation has been introduced not just in this respect, where we are asking for a code of practice, but in many other fields, to deal with those people who do not behave properly and where there are no properly monitored trade union agreements. That is why we are asking for it.
It will be unnecessary for those employers who are already applying this kind of practice but it is necessary for those employers who do not and who, whenever they have the chance, try to get away with it, and who will continue to do so. The number of such people who try to get away with it will probably increase if there is no legislation of any kind to force them to comply. In many cases there are a large number of employers who have employees who are not in trade unions and where the organisations are too small to make effective trade union organisation a practical proposition. It is in those cases that a code of practice is particularly desirable. Therefore, I very much hope that the Government will accept the amendment.
Lord Somers: My Lords, I support this amendment and I congratulate the noble Baroness on the way she has worded it. It covers three paragraphs without once mentioning that forbidden word "women", although we all know perfectly well what the amendment means. I should also like to congratulate the noble Baroness on having inspired the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, actually to mention the name of a Conservative Front Bench Peer in support of his argument. That is surely an event that should go down in the Guinness Book of Records. I congratulate the noble Baroness, therefore, on all counts.
Lord Denning: My Lords, may I also support what is an apparently minor amendment but nevertheless
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one of some importance? It is to deal with what has been called the cowboy employers. Almost every employer will easily fulfil the requirement mentioned in subsection (1)—namely, that when making a change of hours,
"he shall be under a duty to consider the health, safety, welfare and interests",
of his employees. Every ordinary employer will do so. There is no difficulty at all about that. It is only the cowboys who will ride roughshod over the health and welfare of employees. But no legal obligation arises and no offence is created if he does not carry out that duty. So what is to happen? I refer to the next subsection.
Codes of practice are a modern innovation. They have begun to appear in our legislative machinery within the last 20 years. They are not binding in law but serve as advice or guidance to people in carrying out their everyday affairs. In that way, they give a great deal of help, without being legally binding, to those who want to know or should know how to behave.
A code of practice I should therefore have thought was the appropriate machinery in relation to the matter under discussion. The only means of enforcement of this duty and consideration is its relevance in determining whether in some future proceedings the employer has been reasonable. All those provisions, it seems to me, are very sensible. It is difficult to see what legitimate objection could be raised against the amendment. I support it.
Lord Seebohm: My Lords, I shall be brief, your Lordships will be glad to hear. I have been impressed by the arguments of the noble Baroness, Lady Platt. There is, however, an additional point that is well worth making. In a debate not long ago, I pointed out that there are over 4.3 million workers who work part time. They work part time voluntarily because of strong interests elsewhere, mainly for family reasons. Someone in the family may be disabled, or perhaps there is an elderly relative. To these part time workers, it is vitally important that their hours of work should not change without serious consideration. These 4.3 million people, who are not unionised, must be given particular attention. Few of them have anyone officially supporting them. I support the amendment strongly.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: My Lords, I also should like to speak in support of my noble friend Lady Platt, who moved the amendment with great skill and wisdom. One could not possibly disagree with the words in the first part of the amendment, which simply state that the employer shall be under a duty to consider the health, safety, welfare and interests of the employees. That is exactly what we want. We do not want discrimination between men and women. We want all legislation and all care regarding matters of this kind to apply to both men and women. I believe that the amendment would apply to both men and women and that this would be a great advantage. I hope that the Government will recognise that this is not a political issue but purely a matter of common sense. I support the amendment strongly.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I should like to support the amendment of my noble friend Lady Platt. It is sensible that in the first subsection of the amendment she has included the words,
"having regard to the nature and size of his business".
The employee is actively concerned and interested in the future of the employer. If the employer goes out of business, the job goes with him. So that is highly relevant. I sit on an industrial tribunal on a regular basis. It is amazing to find how many employers who go there to defend cases have not given any thought or displayed any awareness of industrial legislation until they arrive for the hearing. A code of practice is very helpful in these cases.
I am convinced that a code of practice would be of great value to a person who would like to know more about how they should be going about these matters. Subsection (3) of the amendment is also of great importance in setting out the relevance that the tribunal would attach to the implementation of such a code of practice. I support the amendment strongly.
4.45 p.m.
Baroness Lockwood: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Baroness's amendment. In doing so, I must first apologise to the noble Baroness and to the House for my absence when she moved the amendment. The noble Baroness will, however, forgive me, I believe, when I say that I was fulfilling a long-standing engagement dealing with equal opportunities. I am sure that I would have agreed with the remarks of the noble Baroness in support of an amendment the terms of which I support completely. It is important to have an amendment such as this embodied in the Bill, not only for the reasons given by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear—namely, that there are a considerable number of employees who are outside the scope of organised trade unions and who are not always party to collective agreements—but also because of the cowboy firms described by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning.
There are many women now in employment who would feel more confident about continuing their employment and also many women who feel much more confident about entering employment if they feel that their interests would be covered by a code of practice similar to that envisaged in the amendment. It is suggested that the code should be under the auspices of the Health and Safety Commission. But such a code would complement that already drawn up by the Equal Opportunities Commission and that has received the approval of Parliament for ensuring equal opportunities for men and women in employment. I hope therefore that the House will give the amendment its full support.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, I must confess to the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, that I have heard so much about cowboys this afternoon that I am beginning to feel a little like the Lone Ranger. But cowboys are a state of mind. Whatever the law may or may not be, we have to ensure that we do not have cowboys in our midst by means other than simply legislating them out. I would assure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and my noble friend Lady Elliot that Section 16 of the Health and Safety at
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Work Act 1974 already allows the Health and Safety Commission to prepare and issue approved codes of practice to assist employers in fulfilling their general duties to ensure the health, safety and welfare at work of employees. This amendment seeks something rather different. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, that it is a curious view to take of the best way to promote employment and to help the growth of the economy to propose that employers should amend their working practices to suit the domestic arrangements of their employees at a particular time.
All your Lordships should be concerned to see the growth of employment. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Seebohm, that part-time employment is of increasing importance. We are looking towards a world in which part-time employment not only grows but is also increasingly attractive. We must ensure, wherever possible, the growth of part-time employment rather than place restrictions upon it. I do not pay too much attention to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, about burdens of business. I shall not rest until we see unnecessary restrictions removed from the growth of employment.
I am not talking about removal of protection, but the removal of unnecessary restrictions. Therefore we have to ask ourselves this afternoon what we are proposing. The main effect of this amendment is to impose upon all employers a new statutory duty. I stress the word "all" because it is important to understand that we are not talking merely of women in manufacturing or men in the baking industry. This amendment would apply to all employers great and small across the economy.
As my noble friend Lady Platt has explained, the effect of this amendment would be that an employer who proposed to make a "substantial change" in working hours would have to consider the health, safety, welfare and interests of his employees and to make appropriate arrangements bearing in mind the nature and size of his business.
I do not think that we can take refuge in the thought that the size of the business will in the end be taken into account. We have seen the European court decide that the size of the business is an irrelevancy and that these restrictions apply right the way across the board. I can assure my noble friend Lady Gardner that we should be concerned to see and promote the growth of small firms. It would be difficult—in fact we see no way—to ensure that there were special rules for very small firms alone. In particular—this is where the new duty arises—the employer will have to consider the employees' domestic and family responsibilities.
Section 97 of the Factories Act 1961—which we have had quoted this afternoon—used wording, as my noble friend Lady Platt has mentioned, which is similar to that of the amendment, but in some respects only. It provides that when granting an authorisation under that section to work shifts which would otherwise be prohibited the Minister may impose such conditions as he thinks necessary to safeguard "the welfare and interests" of the employees on the shift system. The section then goes on to describe the interests envisaged, including meal facilities and accommodation for clothing. I should make it absolutely plain that my department has always encouraged employers to consider the welfare and

447
interests of their employees in the furtherance of good industrial relations. We go much further than encouragement when considering people's health and safety at work. The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 puts all employers under a general duty to ensure the health and safety and welfare at work of all employees. I have already referred to the possibility of issuing codes of practice on that aspect. To this extent therefore this amendment duplicates an obligation which employers already have.
However, this amendment goes beyond that. It imposes as a new statutory requirement on an employer the duty to consider the interests of employees, and, in particular, the interests of his or her employees with domestic and family responsibilities when changes in working hours are contemplated. It would be the employer's duty to consider the health, safety and welfare of his employees not only at work but elsewhere.
We believe that employers will in the main already be doing this so far as it is reasonably practicable for them to do. An employer not sensitive to his work people's interests, either collectively or to the level of the individual, is not well placed to persuade them to give of their best. An employer not already adopting such an approach may need to pay more to obtain willing recruits.
There is no evidence to suggest that there is any need to place an inflexible statutory obligation on employers requiring an approach which, to all intents and purposes, most adopt already. To do so would be to impose yet another burden on employers which, even if the duty were clear cut, would put further strain on the willingness of enterprise to expand and to create jobs. Everything I do is concerned solely with creating jobs in a spirit of safety.
However, the duty is not clear cut. Even with the code of practice that is proposed there would be difficulty in interpretation. For instance, what is meant by "substantial change in hours"? For some workers dependent upon public transport, a change of only minutes might be the difference between catching or missing the only convenient bus. Such small changes can currently be introduced almost unhindered even for the employees directly affected by the legislation we propose to repeal. What precisely comprises the "interests of those employees"?
Baroness Seear: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me for interrupting him. I must draw his attention to the fact that this simply says "consider". It does not say that they have to negotiate or agree. The noble Lord can do that in five seconds in the bathroom in the morning.
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, may I assure the noble Baroness that what starts off as "considering" shortly becomes an inflexible duty. That is the way in which these matters get interpreted and develop.
Lord McCarthy: My Lords, does that refer to taking a bath?
Lord Young of Graffham: My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that that does not refer to the duty to take a bath. How would employers take account of conflicting interests between individual or groups of employees? Not all employees will have the same interests.
We believe that the new employer's duties sought by this amendment would be a gift to the legal profession providing them with endless opportunities for equally endless interpretations. How is the employer to cope with this?
Finally, noble Lords will recognise that the amendment seeks to widen the scope of the Health and Safety Commission's terms of reference. They would have a duty to consider matters outside the workplace. For the very first time they would be called upon to advise on family and domestic responsibilities. These issues bear no relation to the Health and Safety Commission's current expertise and skills, involved as it is with questions of health, safety and welfare at work.
The Government could not agree that it would be sensible to ask the Commission to equip itself to issue guidance on these largely social aspects of change in the workplace. In conclusion, we believe that it would be ill advised to impose this statutory burden on employers and to widen the Health and Safety commission's terms of reference in the ways proposed. For those reasons, I urge rejection of this amendment.
Baroness Platt of Writtle: My Lords, I am very disappointed that my noble friend the Secretary of State does not find it possible to accept what we believe is a very reasonable amendment. At a time when there is a substantial change, both in legislation and—if this proposal is agreed—in hours of work, we feel that protection is needed.
I quoted from the Factories Act. We used the words that are in the Factories Act 1961. It talks about "safeguarding the welfare and interests of the persons employed". It goes outside the place of work in talking about transport facilities for workers residing at a distance, and, in the case of young persons, of reasonable facilities for attending courses for further education. This is something that is provided at the moment and would go if nothing is put forward to provide other protection.
In terms of a code of practice, in the case of our own code of practice with regard to the Equal Opportunities Commission, this went through Parliament with parliamentary support. There is reference to the period of 40 days which it has to lie before Parliament. There are a great many restrictions and protections on a code of practice. One is therefore not talking about something that is considered very lightly. It is a reasonable document. It is a voluntary document.
I have spoken to many employers over our own code of practice. As my noble friend Lady Gardner said just now, they welcomed that guidance. Faced with difficult and complex legislation, they find it a help to have a code of practice which provides guidance.
If I may refer to the "cowboys" as several noble Lords and Baronesses have said today, one does not

449
come to an industrial tribunal lightly. It is an ordeal for the applicant just as it will be for the respondent. However, at that time account will be taken of the reasonableness of the irresponsible employer. I am therefore grateful for the support I have had from the House today. I am disappointed in my noble friend. I still hope that at Third Reading he may have a last minute conversion. In the meantime I must press the amendment.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 5) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 107; Not-Contents, 88.

DIVISION NO. 3

CONTENTS

Allen of Abbeydale, L.

Lawrence, L.

Amherst, E.

Leatherland, L.

Ardwick, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Auckland, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Banks, L.

Lockwood, B.

Barnett, L.

Longford, E.

Bernstein, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Bottomley, L.

McCarthy, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

McNair, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Mishcon, L.

Caradon, L.

Molloy, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Morton of Shuna, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Mountevans, L.

Crawshaw of Aintree, L.

Mulley, L.

David, B.

Murray of Epping Forest, L.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Nicol, B.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Oram, L.

Denington, B.

Parry, L.

Denning, L.

Phillips, B.

Diamond, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Platt of Writtle, B. [Teller.]

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Prys-Davies, L.

Ennals, L.

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Rochester, L.

Faithfull, B.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Falkender, B.

Sainsbury, L.

Foot, L.

Seear, B.

Gallacher, L.

Seebohm, L.

Galpern, L.

Serota, B.

Gardner of Parkes, B. [Teller.]

Shackleton, L.

Silkin of Dulwich, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Somers, L.

Greenway, L.

Stallard, L.

Gregson, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Grey, E.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Grimond, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Hampton, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Hanworth, V.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Tordoff, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Hayter, L.

Underhill, L.

Henderson of Brompton, L.

Vickers, B.

Heycock, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Walston, L.

Hughes, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Jeger, B.

Whaddon, L.

Jenkins of Putney, L.

Wheatley, L.

John-Mackie, L.

White, B.

Kennett, L.

Wigoder, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Wilson of Rievaulx, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Ampthill, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Bellwin, L.

450

Beloff, L.

Marshall of Leeds, L.

Belstead, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Bessborough, E.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Merrivale, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Milverton, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Butterworth, L.

Norrie, L.

Caithness, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Onslow, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Coleraine, L.

Pender, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Perth, E.

Craigavon, V.

Plummer of St Marylebone, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Davidson, V.

Porritt, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Portland, D.

Derwent, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Reay, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Rodney, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

St. John of Bletso, L.

Elton, L.

Sandford, L.

Erroll of Hale, L.

Selkirk, E.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Shannon, E.

Geddes, L.

Sharples, B.

Glanusk, L.

Shaughnessy, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Strathspey, L.

Sudeley, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Swansea, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Hooper, B.

Teviot, L.

Ironside, L.

Teynham, L.

Kimball, L.

Thorneycroft, L.

Kitchener, E.

Trefgarne, L.

Lane-Fox, B.

Trumpington, B.

Lauderdale, E.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Vivian, L.

Long, V.

Ward of Witley, V.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Whitelaw, V.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Young, B.

Mancroft, L.

Young of Graffham, L.

Marley, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
5.7 p.m.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Nugent of Guildford): My Lords the next amendment is Amendment No. 6, which I understand has already been spoken to.
Schedule [Repeals]:
Lord Young of Graffham Lord Young of Graffham moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 8, line 14, column 3, at end insert—

("In section 11(1), the words "consisting of six or more partners".

In section 80(1), paragraph (d).").

On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Young of Graffham Lord Young of Graffham moved Amendments Nos. 7 and 8:
Page 10, line 7f, column 3, after ("91") insert—

("—

in subsection (1),").

Page 10, line 9, column 3, leave out ("and the words "her or" in subsection (3)") and insert—

("—

in subsection (2), the words "woman or a"; and

in subsection (3), the words "woman or" and the words "her or".").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to move Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 together. They are technical drafting amendments consequential on Clause 4 of the Bill. As your Lordships know, Clause 4 amends the Factories Act 1961 and associated legislation so that the provisions restricting women's hours of work cease to apply. Part II of the schedule makes the detailed amendments to the provisions, including Section 91 of the 1961 Act. The amendments simply tidy up and clarify the way in which the references to women are removed from Section 91. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Young of Graffham Lord Young of Graffham moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 11, line 27, at end insert—

("1974 c. 37

The Health and Safety at Work Etc. Act 1974.

In Schedule 1, the entry relating to the Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act 1954.

1975 c. 65.

The Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

In Schedule 5, paragraph 3.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is simply a drafting amendment. It is consequential on Clause 5 of the Bill which, as your Lordships know, proposes to repeal the Baking Industry (Hours of Work) Act 1954.
Part II of the Schedule to the Bill already contains two small consequential amendments to Acts which refer to the 1954 Act. This amendment ensures that two more such "consequentials" are added—they are Schedule 1 to the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and Schedule 5 to the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, both of which refer to the 1954 Act. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.

Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
5.10 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 1 [The Scottish Legal Aid Board]:
The Lord Advocate (Lord Cameron of Lochbroom)The Lord Advocate (Lord Cameron of Lochbroom) moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 2, line 1, leave out ("8") and insert ("11").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall speak also to Amendment Nos. 2 and 4 in my name. These amendments are designed to take account of comments on the composition of the board made during the first day on which your Lordships sat in Committee.
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I think I must interrupt the noble and learned Lord. The Marshalled List has been wrongly marshalled. In fact Amendment No. 3 comes before Amendment No. 2. Would the noble and learned Lord, in order to assist the House, deal only with Amendment No. 1 first?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I am obliged. Speaking simply to Amendment No. 1, the intention here is to increase the number of members of
452
the board from eight to 11, consequent upon certain other amendments which would have the effect of increasing the number of members who would be taken from the Faculty of Advocates and the Law Society.
The increase in number, which would depend upon those amendments, is to leave the board with still a lay majority upon it. The Government consider that it is appropriate, where the board has a wide range of duties, that there should be a lay majority. Obviously we shall come to the issue of the membership in due course. In the meantime, I beg to move.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, may I ask one question on this amendment and the other two amendments taken with it? Is it understood that there will be consultation with the Faculty of Advocates and the Law Society when these nominations are made?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, we are perhaps going to go into that realm in a moment, and I do not think that it would be appropriate at this stage to deal with the point raised by my noble friend. I certainly intend to do so when I deal with the issue, which will come with the next amendments.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, Amendment No. 3. I should explain that if Amendment No. 3 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 2 and 4.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 2, leave out lines 14 to 17 and insert—

("(a) at least two members of the Faculty of Advocates from persons nominated by the Faculty of Advocates;

(b) at least two members of the Law Society of Scotland from persons nominated by the Council of the Law Society of Scotland;

(c) at least one other person having experience of the procedure and practice of the Courts;

(d) at least one person from persons nominated by the Scottish Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux;

(e) at least one person from persons nominated by the Scottish Consumer Council; and

(f) at least one person from persons nominated by the Scottish Council for Civil Liberties.

( ) Regulations made under this section may provide for the addition or deletion of organisations with the right of nomination to the Secretary of State for appointment as members of the Board.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is directed to the composition of the board. It is to set out that the various bodies—the Faculty of Advocates, the Law Society, the Citizens Advice Bureaux, the Scottish Consumer Council, and the Scottish Council for Civil Liberties—should have the right to nominate to the Secretary of State, who would then have the right to choose from the nominees those he would wish to appoint to the board.
Every person who spoke at Committee stage on this clause of the Bill emphasised the importance of the board being independent, and being seen to be independent. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate would not accept any of the amendments proposed, though he undertook to consider the debate. Amendments Nos. 2 and 4 seem to be the extent of his consideration. That is to increase the number of lawyers from two to four.
However, everybody appointed to the board is still to be a nominee of the Secretary of State, chosen by the Secretary of State for his personal qualities, and there is no obligation in the Bill on the Secretary of State to consult anybody, either the legal bodies or any of the bodies representing consumer interests.
The necessity of showing the board to be independent and the dangers of the Secretary of State having this complete power were perhaps best illustrated by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, who of course had great experience as Secretary of State. At Committee stage he pointed out the dangers in the Secretary of State appearing to accumulate all the power.
This amendment is designed to be a compromise between the position of the Secretary of State wanting the right to choose everybody and the position of the various bodies having a right to suggest. I would commend it to the House. No doubt it could be better drafted, but I have suggested the three bodies, the Citizens Advice Bureaux, the Scottish Consumer Council, and the Scottish Council for Civil Liberties. Each of them, in their response to the consultation paper prior to the Bill, commented on the necessity that the board should be independent. It would seem to me that the best way is that these people should have the right to nominate persons, with the Secretary of State having the right to choose somebody out of the nominees. There is a provision in my amendment that regulations may be made to delete from, or add to, the organisations which have the right of nomination. I hope that this amendment may commend itself to the House, and I beg to move.
5.15 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I would suggest to your Lordships that a more proper course to take is to accept the amendment put down in my name. The noble Lord opposite is correct that I undertook to consider what was said by your Lordships in Committee. The consequence is that in Amendments Nos. 2 and 4 I have increased the minimum number of members of both the Faculty of Advocates and the Law Society from one to two.
My noble friend Lord Selkirk asked me about consultation. I am happy to say that my right honourable friend has already made approaches to these bodies to suggest persons who might be suitable for appointment to the board. I am, however, bound to stress that it is my right honourable friend the Secretary of State who is responsible for making appointments, and I would suggest that it is not appropriate that he should simply be committed to selecting names suggested by the bodies named in the Bill at present, or indeed any other particular bodies, and not least because he is of course accountable to Parliament for the actions of the bodies that he funds, and this board will be one of them.
I should also say that my right honourable friend has also invited suggestions for board members from the Scottish Consumer Council and the Scottish Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, and he is also consulting the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and this to ensure that the board will represent a broad spectrum of interests. But the important thing is that the board members should be
454
appointed for their individual qualities, their expertise and their knowledge, as is set out in Clause 1(4).
I suggest that it is right that the Secretary of State should reserve the right to choose which individuals from each of the interests covered should serve. This is all the more vital for the first board setting up the new system—a testing task requiring a careful combination of qualities on the board if it is to be successful.
I has been suggested that the independence of the board is secured if there is this power which is sought by the amendment of the noble Lord opposite. Perhaps I may say that that argument was refuted at a much earlier stage in the passage of this Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, when he pointed out from his very wide personal knowledge that boards appointed by Ministers are not inhibited in expressing their views. Indeed, I suggest that many of my colleagues would give wry smiles if told that boards appointed by them would leap to their every command. I remind your Lordships that within our own jurisdiction in Scotland the Highlands and Islands Development Board, an independent board, is one where the Act provides that the board should consist of a chairman and not more than six other members and that the board shall be appointed by the Secretary of State. That is all. Only last year in the National Heritage Act the board of trustees for the National Museum of Scotland was to consist of not more than 15 persons and they shall be appointed by the Secretary of State. That was under a reference to having regard to their individual qualities.
There is one other technical point that I wish to make. Under the amendment it would be possible, where more than one member is to be appointed, for the particular bodies to close the list to the point where their nominations must be the appointees. I think even the noble Lord opposite accepted that that should not be the case. That is perhaps a more technical objection; but my principal objection is that this is an unnecessary constraint upon the Secretary of State. I suggest that what is in the Bill with the amendments which I propose follows ample precedent. In these circumstances your Lordships should not accept the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Morton.
Merely in passing I suggest that even at the end of his amendment the noble Lord accepts the power of the Secretary of State to delete organisations with the right of nomination, which presumably would mean that he could delete any one of the organisations included in the list. That goes far beyond what is proposed in the amendments in my name. For these reasons I cannot accept the amendment proposed.
Lord Hughes: My Lords, I was rather astonished to find the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate praying any remarks of mine in aid in refusing this amendment. It is perfectly true that at an earlier stage in our proceedings I did not accept the argument that a body appointed entirely by a Minister, without necessarily consulting other people, would be a body which was wholly dependent on the Secretary of State for its opinions or that it did not itself exercise an independent point of view. I felt obliged to say that because having on more than one occasion been a member of a body appointed by the Secretary of State,

455
I should hate to think that at this late stage in my life I would be accused of merely being an obedient creature of the Minister who appointed me.
Having said that, we must consider what has been given as the reason for setting up this board. Everyone who spoke emphasised that they did not imply any criticism, any bad or improper administration of legal aid in Scotland by the Law Society. That was not the reason for this Bill coming forward; it was rather the old argument that Caesar's wife must be above suspicion. From that point of view if the Secretary of State makes his appointments from names which have been submitted to him rather than by plucking them out of the air without any guarantee of consultation, and if it is done in the way suggested by the amendment, the appearance of independence is greater still. I am strongly in support of the amendment.
I should go further. If this amendment were put in the Bill, the obligation would be that the Secretary of State would have to ask these bodies to submit nominations—not one nomination but a number of nominations. It is not unheard of for a Minister who has asked for nominations from a body not to like any of the names on the list, for reasons which seemed to the Minister to be sound reasons for not accepting them. But he did not then go ahead and appoint somebody other than a name suggested by the organisation. What happens in these circumstances is that a discreet message is passed to the organisation: "I wonder whether you could perhaps add some other names to those you have already submitted. I should like to have a wider choice available to me". There is nothing in the amendment of my noble friend which would prevent that procedure from being carried out.
Apart from what might be the views of the Citizens Advice Bureaux or the Consumer Council I am certain that both the Faculty of Advocates and the Law Society would be happier if they were providing the list from which the appointments would be made. I believe that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate is making an unnecessary mistake—if there is such a thing as a necessary mistake. Sometimes I think that that is the way that governments operate; they are prepared to make mistakes and argue that it is because they are necessary. I will amend what I said, and say that it is an unnecessary decision to reject the amendment put forward by my noble friend. This board is a big change from all that has gone before. The more satisfactory the way in which it can start its life, the better the chance that it will operate successfully.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I have the highest regard personally for the Secretary of State. I should have no doubt whatever that he would make good appointments. But we are making law today. There will be dozens of future Secretaries of State; at least I hope so. They may vary a great deal. It is not unknown for politicians to make political appointments. It is not absolutely without precedent in life, and this may happen. Appointments may be made on personal grounds, and that has happened, too, on occasions. There is nothing in the Bill to say that the people appointed must be people of quality. It is curious that there is no suggestion of that sort.
456
The most fundamental weakness of my noble friend's argument is his comparing the board to the board for East Kilbride, a new town for which I have the highest regard. He compared it to the Highlands and Islands Development Board and he compared it to those for museums. We are dealing with something totally different from any of these important organisations. We are dealing with the administration of justice. This is something that bears no relationship to the organisations which the Secretary of State finds himself dealing with. It is something which is fundamentally important. These people will undertake a great deal of responsibility.
I do not know how the noble and learned Lord wants to do this. He says that he will consult; in fact, he says that he has already consulted the Faculty of Advocates and the Law Society. But there is nothing in the Bill to say that. That is what I should like. Even if the noble and learned Lord does not like the latter part of the amendment—that is, paragraphs (c), (d), (e) and (f)—paragraphs (a) and (b) should still stand. I feel very strongly that (a) and (b) should stand. They state:

(a) at least two members of the Faculty of Advocates from persons nominated by the Faculty of Advocates;

(b) at least two member of the Law Society of Scotland from persons nominated by the Council of the Law Society of Scotland".

if it is desired.
I think the principle of this Bill is the independence of the board. I am sorry to say—and I say it with great respect—that the other boards are necessarily representing the Secretary of State in their work, whether it be the Highlands and Islands Development Board or those for the museums. They are representing him and carrying out the duties on the basis which he says, exercising no doubt their own ability.
I should like the noble and learned Lord to consider very carefully whether he could not accept certainly paragraphs (a) and (b) and what other consultations he has; or to say quite clearly that he will make these nominations after hearing views. I think that that would make a great deal of difference to the attitude of independence with which the board will be regarded.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I am grateful for the support from my noble friend Lord Hughes and from the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. It appears to me that this board has nothing whatever in common with a new town, or the Highlands and Islands Development Board, or the Heritage Trust. If the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate was proposing amendments suggesting that there would be nomination from bodies such as the Faculty of Advocates, the Law Society or the Citizens Advice Bureaux, that would be one thing; or if he was suggesting an amendment that before making appointments the Secretary of State would consult, that would be another thing. But there is no duty being put into this Bill for the Secretary of State to consult anybody.
No doubt the present Secretary of State has very eminent qualities; I am sure he has. But a future Secretary of State could well appoint people from the Faculty of Advocates or the Law Society who had no experience of criminal courts, for example, or no experience of legal aid work. There is nothing in the

457
Bill or in the amendments that we are to discuss, other than this one, which suggests any independence for the board. I regret that I must press this amendment and seek the opinion of the House.
Lord Wilson of Langside: My Lords, I am sorry I did not get the opportunity to rise before the noble Lord, Lord Morton, did so. On this question of consultation, surely in the real world it is unthinkable that any Secretary of State appointing members of the board would not consult first of all closely and intimately with his right honourable friend the Lord Advocate and that, in turn, the Lord Advocate would not consult closely and intimately with the heads of the two branches of the legal profession before any appointment was made.
As far as I recall it is most unusual to put a provision into a statutory measure insisting on consultation. I well recall when the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971 was passed suggesting that the matter of consultation between the then Lord Advocate and the Secretary of State should be given statutory form. After discussion, it was eventually accepted on all sides that this was a matter of sensible government which was bound to happen. I think that to divide the House as though this is a crucial point would be most unfortunate.
Beyond that, this amendment is a matter on the detail of which we could debate at great length and I am sure that your Lordships do not wish to do that. While I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, when he says that it is all important that the board should, quite rightly, get off to a good start, I think it would get off to a much better start with the kind of balance on the board proposed meantime; and I have my own criticisms of the Bill and I would have done it a different way. But with the board as it is I think we will get a much better balance with what the Government propose than with what is proposed in this amendment.
I mention only one point of detail. I do not want to embark on criticism away from the central issue, but it would then give a majority to those who are, as it were, professionally involved. I do not think that that would be a good balance. It would be two members of the Law Society of Scotland and one person having experience of the procedure and practice of the courts. I think it important that this board should be independent. We must think of independence in relation to not merely the Secretary of State but also various other bodies. Accordingly, for my part I would oppose this amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, with the leave of the House, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, is wrong in saying that this would give lawyers a majority; it would not. There would be under paragraph (a) two members of the Faculty of Advocates—and that is the amendment that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate is going to propose—and there would be two members of the Law Society; and that again is the amendment that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate is going to propose. The one other person having experience of the procedure and practice of the court might be a lawyer or he might not. The rest would not be lawyers, out of a minimum of 11 and a maximum of 15. Even five out of 11 would not be a majority.
Lord Wilson of Langside: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I did not say that the lawyers would have a majority. I said that there would be a majority with a professional interest. The person with the experience of the practice and procedure of the court is a clerk of court or a person of that kind. What I said was not that the lawyers would be in the majority but that there would be a professional interest, with the danger arising of questions of independence not in relation to the Secretary of State but in relation to other interests.
5.39 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 3) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 68; Not-Contents, 86.

DIVISION NO. 4

CONTENTS

Amherst, E.

McIntosh of Haringey, L.

Ardwick, L.

Mishcon, L.

Barnett, L.

Molloy, L.

Briginshaw, L.

Morton of Shuna, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Mulley, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Nicol, B.

Caradon, L.

Oram, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Parry, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Phillips, B.

Crawshaw of Aintree, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Prys-Davies, L.

Denington, B.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Selkirk, E.

Ennals, L.

Serota, B.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Shackleton, L.

Falkender, B.

Silkin of Dulwich, L.

Foot, L.

Stallard, L.

Gallacher, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Galpern, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Gregson, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Grey, E.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Heycock, L.

Underhill, L.

Hughes, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Jeger, B.

Walston, L.

Jenkins of Putney, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

John-Mackie, L.

Whaddon, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Wheatley, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

White, B.

Lockwood, B.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Wilson of Rievaulx, L.

McCarthy, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Denham, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Denning, L.

Ampthill, L.

Derwent, L.

Auckland, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Beloff, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Belstead, L.

Elton, L.

Bessborough, E.

Erroll of Hale, L.

Boardman, L.

Faithfull, B.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Fortescue, E.

Butterworth, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Caithness, E.

Gardner of Parkes, B.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Geddes, L.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Glanusk, L.

Craigavon, V.

Glenarthur, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Cross, V.

Hanworth, V.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Davidson, V.

Hooper, B.

459

Hylton-Foster, B.

Rankeillour, L.

Kimball, L.

Reay, L.

Kitchener, E.

Renwick, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

St. John of Bletso, L.

Long, V. [Teller.]

Sandford, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Shannon, E.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Sharples, B.

Mancroft, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Margadale, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Marley, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Merrivale, L.

Strathspey, L.

Milverton, L.

Sudeley, L.

Mottistone, L.

Swansea, L.

Mountevans, L.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Teynham, L.

Munster, E.

Trefgarne, L.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Trumpington, B.

Norrie, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Vickers, B.

Orkney, E.

Vivian, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Ward of Witley, V.

Pender, L.

Whitelaw, V.

Perth, E.

Young, B.

Portland, D.

Young of Graffham, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
5.46 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 2, line 14, leave out ("one member") and insert ("two members").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I formally beg to move Amendment No. 2 standing in my name. I have already spoken to Amendments Nos. 2 and 4. I beg to move.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, may I ask my noble and learned friend a question which I asked earlier and to which he did not refer in the course of his previous reply? Am I to understand that it is going to be clear that there will be consultations with the Faculty of Advocates and the Law Society in regard to the appointments which are to be made there? I say frankly that it is in the interests of the Government to do that, to show that there is at least some degree of independence in these bodies.
I hope my noble and learned friend will consider this very carefully. It should be in the Act. There will be many new Secretaries of State without perhaps the same experience of law or (may I say?) possibly without the same respect for the law that the present Secretary of State has. It is of great importance that this should be stated specifically in the Act. I ask my noble and learned friend to consider very carefully whether at a later date he cannot introduce something of that character.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, with the leave of the House, perhaps I may respond to my noble friend. I think I have made it clear in relation to the last debate that in fact my right honourable friend has already been in touch with those two bodies. I can simply say that certainly I understand it would be his full intention to consult with them on the suitable membership from those two bodies. However, as I said earlier, I should like to make clear that he cannot be committed necessarily to selecting the names suggested by those bodies. I would, however, confirm
460
that he is already in touch with them with a view to inviting them to suggest suitable people as members of the board. I would understand that to be essential to any consultation process.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, with the leave of the House, may I ask my noble and learned friend what future Secretaries of State are to be bound by? If that is to be the normal procedure, let it be clearly stated in the Act that it is to be the normal procedure. That is all I am asking, and I think it is very reasonable.
The Earl of Perth: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, on this point because it is all very well to say that this is what we are doing, but we have to look to the future. It is coming up again in a different form at a later stage, and I would beg the noble Lord to say that he will look at it to see whether in the next Session he cannot introduce in legislation the practice he is proposing to follow.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I should like to add my support to that suggestion.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, again, with the leave of the House, perhaps I should simply say that I shall obviously take account of what has been said by your Lordships today, but I obviously cannot give any commitment so far as Third Reading is concerned.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 2, line 15, leave out ("one member") and insert ("two members").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 4 formally. I have already spoken to it.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 2 [Powers of the Board]:
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment Nos. 5 and 6:
Page 2, line 34, leave out ("and").
Page 2, line 37, at end insert ("and
(e) to give the Secretary of State such advice as it may consider appropriate in relation to the provision of legal aid and advice and assistance in accordance with this Act.").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall speak to this amendment together with Amendment No. 6 standing in my name.
Your Lordships in Committee expressed views about the issue of advice being given by the new board. In consultation with my right honourable friend I have given careful thought to those comments and we are persuaded that this would be appropriate. Accordingly, Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 together make provision for the board to have power to give to the Secretary of State such advice as it may consider appropriate in relation to the legal aid and advice and assistance functions which it will have. I suggest that this power would, in fact, provide for the concerns which noble Lords expressed in Committee, and therefore I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 3 [Duties of the Board]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 3, line 13, leave out subsection (4).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is directed towards one subsection of Clause 3 which appears to demonstrate, as so much of this Bill does, the fact that the board is to be merely the creature of the Secretary of State, because the subsection says:
"The Board shall have regard, in the exercise of its functions, to such guidance as may from time to time be given by the Secretary of State; but such guidance shall not affect the consideration or disposal of applications."
That, it appears to me, gives the board the duty of obeying directions, in effect, from the Secretary of State. Coupled with the immense power to make regulations, it appears an unnecessary power as put; especially if the other way, with the amendment we have just agreed to, there is advice being given to the Secretary of State, it might be better or less objectionable, if the clause has to remain at all. I would suggest that there would be no need for it if it dealt with "consider" rather than "having regard to" and "advice" rather than "guidance"
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, may I ask what really is intended by this subsection? What is the guidance which is to be given? It is not to do with the disposal of applications for legal aid. Legal aid is out altogether. What is in? It is not to do with property. That is already perfectly controlled at the present time under subsection (2). It is not finance, because that is wholly under the control of the Secretary of State already. It looks to me as though the only thing we can talk about is staff. Is it really needed to give guidance about staff? If that is not the case, what is the guidance required? There is a slight suspicion that this is a method undermining the independence of a board which I would have thought was not only unfortunate but wholly contrary to the intentions of the Government themselves. Can we have an explanation which would justify this subsection. What exactly is the purpose behind it?
Lord Hughes: My Lords, may I, too, ask a question about this? Would the board be entitled to interpret this subsection as giving it the right to disregard the guidance of the Secretary of State if it felt that though the guidance was given in good faith it was not the best way in which the board could operate? Would it be entitled just to regard it as advice and therefore be free not to follow it?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I would suggest to your Lordships that this amendment should not be accepted. I think I explained at Committee that the guidance powers which are intended in this clause relate essentially to the board's administrative and financial operations. One matter which is pre-eminently suitable for guidance would be the way in which the board, for instance, conducted its financial transactions. Those are matters for it—not in fact for the Secretary of State as my noble friend suggested. For example, it would be important that the Secretary of State should be able to issue guidance to the board in relation to its financial procedures, and these are things which it would not be appropriate to cover in regulations.
462
The guidance power is a restricted one and, of course, as I think I said earlier—and I do not repeat the argument ad longum—the Secretary of State could not appropriately give guidance contrary to what is laid down in statute. Secondly, he is of course limited with the qualification which appears in the clause itself. He can give no guidance on matters which impinge on consideration or disposal or applications for legal aid or advice and assistance. I would make quite clear—and perhaps this is a response to both my noble friends and the noble Lord, Lord Hughes—that this is a power of guidance and not a power of direction; that is to say, while the board would have to regard the guidance there is no obligation upon it to follow it. Indeed, I think I can say that it may well be that the Secretary of State would, in fact, ask the board's advice on draft guidance before he were to issue it, though at the end of the day it may well be that it does not feel impelled to follow it. So far as the power is concerned, it is not one of direction. It is not one which the board is bound to do more than have regard to, and it is not impelled to follow it.
I would simply say that there is nothing sinister in this. I would perhaps observe, since we had in Committee a reference to the position in England, that there the Law Society, which has functions in regard to civil legal aid has, I understand, to exercise its functions under the general guidance of the Lord Chancellor. I have never understood that to have meant that it is bound by his guidance. Obviously it would pay regard to it. I make it clear that the power is limited. It is not one of general guidance on those matters.
Lord Silkin of Dulwich: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate. One point that puzzles me, which perhaps he can explain, is that in relation to an earlier amendment, when we were considering whether there should be something in the Bill to provide for consultation by the Secretary of State, the reply was that of course the Secretary of State would consult without anything appearing about it in the Bill. Why does not the same apply here? Surely the board will have regard to guidance, and the Secretary of State will be able to give guidance, even if it does not appear in the Bill.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, that might be said. I merely make it quite clear that in addition to what the Secretary of State may cover in regulations he will also be entitled to give some guidance on matters which are not covered in regulations. I should have thought that that was a matter suitable to be contained in the Bill. As I say, it appears in another Act. I dealt with the position of consultation in relation to the appointment of members of the board, which, I suggest, is a somewhat different topic.
For those reasons, I would suggest to your Lordships that this is a perfectly appropriate power for the Secretary of State to have. It is one that does not import any direction to be followed; it is simply material which the Secretary of State can place before the board as the board will now have the power to offer advice to the Secretary of State. If we have one, there seems to be no difficulty in also having the other on the face of the Bill.
Lord Foot: My Lords, when we were discussing this subsection in Committee it was universally condemned. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, expressed grave doubts about its advisability. That seems to have been reinforced by what has been said today. Surely it is correct to say that it is utterly unnecessary to have such a clause. The clause in effect says—subject to the qualifications that we have heard from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate—that the Secretary of State may, if he feels inclined, give advice from time to time to the board but that the board shall be under no obligation to accept it, or to act in accordance with it.
It goes on—this makes it even worse—in the second part of the subsection and purports to put limitations on the advice that the Secretary of State can give. It appears to say that the Secretary of State must not give advice upon the granting of legal aid. Why put that into a statute? Why is it necessary to put into the statute that the Secretary of State shall have the right to give advice and then go on and say that the Secretary of State shall be limited in the advice that he can give? That all seems unnecessary in a statute of this kind. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Morton, will take the matter to a Division, if necessary, because I think that it will find universal support on both sides of the House.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, with that encouragement I do not accept the explanation of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate, and seek the opinion of the House.
6.4 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 7) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 73; Not-Contents, 85.

DIVISION NO. 5

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Amherst, E.

Hughes, L.

Ardwick, L.

Jeger, B.

Barnett, L.

Jenkins of Putney, L.

Briginshaw, L.

John-Mackie, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Caradon, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Lockwood, B.

Crawshaw of Aintree, L.

McCarthy, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

McIntosh of Haringey, L.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

McNair, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Denington, B.

Mishcon, L.

Diamond, L.

Molloy, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Morton of Shuna, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Nicol, B.

Ennals, L.

Northfield, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Parry, L.

Foot, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Gallacher, L. [Teller.]

Prys-Davies, L.

Galpern, L.

Rochester, L.

Gregson, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Grey, E.

Seear, B.

Grimond, L.

Selkirk, E.

Hampton, L.

Serota, B.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Shackleton, L.

Heycock, L.

Silkin of Dulwich, L.

464

Stallard, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Walston, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Whaddon, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Wheatley, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Tordoff, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Winstanley, L.

Underhill, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Long, V. [Teller.]

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Arran, E.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Auckland, L.

Mancroft, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Margadale, L.

Belstead, L.

Marley, L.

Boardman, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Broadbridge, L.

Merrivale, L.

Butterworth, L.

Milverton, L.

Caithness, E.

Mottistone, L.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Mountevans, L.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Coleraine, L.

Munster, L.

Colwyn, L.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Craigavon, V.

Newall, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Norrie, L.

Cross, V.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Orkney, E.

Davidson, V.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Denham, L.

Pender, L.

Denning, L.

Perth, E.

Derwent, L.

Platt of Writtle, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Renwick, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Rodney, L.

Elton, L.

Sandford, L.

Faithfull, B.

Shannon, E.

Fanshawe of Richmond, L.

Sharples, B.

Fortescue, E.

Skelmersdale, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Gardner of Parkes, B.

Sudeley, L.

Glanusk, L.

Swansea, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Gray of Contin, L.

Teynham, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Trumpington, B.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Vickers, B.

Hooper, B.

Vivian, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Ward of Witley, V.

Kimball, L.

Whitelaw, V.

Kitchener, E.

Young, B.

Lawrence, L.

Young of Graffham, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
6.12 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 8:
After Clause 3, insert the following new clause:
("Advisory Committee.
.—(1) The Secretary of State shall constitute an Advisory Committee to advise him on such questions relating to this Act as he may from time to time refer to it and to make to him recommendations on such matters as relating as they consider appropriate; and the Secretary of State shall appoint the members of the Committee with regard to their knowledge of the work of the courts and social conditions.
(2) The Secretary of State may pay to the members of the Advisory Committee such travelling and other allowances as he may determine and any expenses of the Secretary of State under this subsection shall be defrayed out of monies provided by Parliament.
(3) The Secretary of State shall refer the Board's Annual Report on the operation and financing of this Act to the Advisory Committee for its consideration and advice and when the

465
Committee has considered it, it shall lay before each House of Parliament a copy of it and of any comments or recommendations made by the Committee.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is to give to Scotland the equivalent of the Lord Chancellor's Legal Aid Advisory Committee which has operated so successfully in England and Wales. This has been sought for Scotland, was recommended by the original Cameron Committee and is supported by the legal professions and by the Scottish Consumer Council. It is perhaps even more necessary now with the new board, which will have this composition that has not a majority of lawyers and has to do things which may be strange to many of them, that there should be some advisory body that can take a more cool and calculated look at their work and put forward ideas for change and improvement. That certainly appears to have been the position with the Lord Chancellor's Legal Aid Advisory Committee and it would be appropriate that Scotland should have the same beneficial committee. I beg to move.
Lord Denning: My Lords, I support this amendment because I have known the Lord Chancellor's Legal Aid Advisory Committee in England. I have known what it has done and I have known the members—not a majority of lawyers, most of them non-lawyers, but good people experienced in social work and the like. They provide the advisory committee's report every year. I hold in my hand a report which they made for 1983–84. It is very comprehensive, making recommendations with which I entirely agree and which I hope to bring in in one or two amendments which I shall move later. So I think that the committee is of great value and I support the amendment. It is of great value in England, and might it not be the same in Scotland?
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, I too support the amendment; indeed, I moved one to similar effect at the Committee stage. It was noteworthy then that the amendment received support from every political quarter in the House: from the Cross-Benches—and the Cross-Benches have spoken again in the person of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning—from the Government Benches, from the Official Opposition Benches and from the Benches up the hill over yonder, the Alliance Benches. There was unanimity in support of the proposal. There was only one opponent—I shall not call it a still, small voice, because certainly that is not the way one would describe the voice of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate—and I venture to think that, if noble Lords have the energy and time to get up again on this important matter, the same result will follow.
But, seriously, the value of the advisory committee would be just as great in the new, differing set-up in Scotland as in England and Wales, if not more so. The degree of professional control by the profession of the legal aid scheme in England and Wales would seem to be rather more professional, if I may use that word, than what is proposed now by the appointment of this board which is to administer and run the scheme. It is not advantageous now to run over again the many objections that were made to the board, to its composition, to its potential dependence upon the Secretary of State and to the risk of its becoming a handmaiden of the wishes of the Secretary of State.
466
The power to oversee the legal aid scheme in operation, which we propose should be given to the advisory committee, with power also to report to Parliament, is, I submit, of enormous assistance to the Lord Chancellor—certainly, I found it so when I was Lord Chancellor—who has overall responsibility in regard to the administration of justice in England and Wales, and I feel sure that the relevant authorities in Scotland would be similarly assisted.
As I have said, the special position of the Scottish Legal Aid Board makes imperative an independent body, of the kind that the advisory committee would be, to advise from time to time and be, so to speak, a public watchdog on what is going on, representing the public interest in the widest sense. I confess that I did not quite find any strength in the objections by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate. It would not be a simple overlapping of the board's functions. The committee would be functioning beside it and it would be invaluable to see that this vital part of social services—namely, a legal aid and advice scheme—is properly run in the interests of those for whom it is intended.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, it is a peculiarity of this country that we have no minister of justice. We have a Lord Chancellor who, more or less, fulfills that duty and his name is the Lord Chancellor of Great Britain. But, in practice, I think he does not operate very much, if at all, in Scotland. In fact, I think he is always rather shy about taking any part in Scots affairs, so we cannot call on him. Practically every country in the world has a minister of justice. Justice is a tender plant. It is one that can go astray very easily indeed. I suggest that this is something which should be considered extremely carefully.
The Secretary of State is now and will in the future be still more concerned with money. Legal aid will be a very big problem in the sense of money and he will be biased by Parliament—biased by the political pressures on him—to reduce expenditure. I think it would help him to have an independent board which would say, "These are the fundamentals of justice; this is what really matters; and even if it costs a little money you must meet it". I suspect that the noble and learned Lord will turn this down out of hand but I do not think he should do so. I think he should think very carefully whether the structure in Scotland is such that it can do without some independent advisory body of this character.
To be absolutely frank, the Minister of Justice in Scotland is the person of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate. His position is about as near as we can get to him. He authorises people inter alia to publish Bibles. One can see his name at the beginning of any bible published by William Collins. He is the authority for doing so. He is the nearest approach we get, but of course he has other functions to fulfil which make this kind of duty extremely difficult. I hope that the Government will think about this and see whether at perhaps the next stage something of this kind can be suggested.
Lord Silkin of Dulwich: My Lords, I rise to support the amendment and I do so only to deal, if I can, with one point which might conceivably be raised. I

467
imagine that it would be open to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to say that now Amendment No. 6 has been passed by the House there is already provision for him to be given advice on matters of this kind. That advice will be given by the board. I am bound to say that if it were a question of one or the other. I should much prefer that such advice should be given by an independent advisory committee such as my noble and learned friend is proposing here rather than by the board itself, and that the advisory committee should among other things look at the way that the board through its annual report is carrying out its functions.
I do not think that it is necessarily a question of one or the other. There is room here for both. There is room for the board to give its advice and there is room for the advisory committee to give its advice. I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will not rest his argument on that particular point.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, during the Committee stage and earlier Report stage the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate was very inflexible in relation to any amendment that was put forward contrary to the Government's views. Having regard to the way in which this amendment has received support from people with great experience in the operation of the advisory committee south of the border, I think that the Government must look long and hard at this before they reject it out of hand as other amendments have been rejected. When in addition to that there is a clear case in common sense for the adoption of a body of this nature, it becomes more and more difficult to understand how the Government can resist.
It has been suggested (and it was suggested at an earlier stage) that the board could do this. Noble Lords who have spoken have indicated the inadequacy of that reply, and I indicated quite clearly at the Committee stage that it was a nonsense because in effect the whole purpose of such a board is to take a long and searching look at the working of the legal aid system and then to advise what steps should be taken if things are not being done properly or are going wrong. How one could expect a board to give an adequate report of that nature in relation to its operation of this scheme baffles me completely.
During proceedings on the Sex Discrimination Bill—I do not think the noble and learned Lord was in the House—the noble Lord, Lord Young, in the early stages at least was both conciliatory and accommodating so far as amendments were concerned. I should like to think that some of that may now rub off on the noble and learned Lord and that the elasticity and flexibility that were shown on the Sex Discrimination Bill can be shown on this one, this Scots discrimination Bill. We still have to get the answer to the question which I posed time and again: why should it be thought desirable and necessary in England but unnecessary or undesirable in Scotland? Accordingly, I ask the noble and learned Lord to think carefully about this, and if he cannot accept the terms of this amendment at least to give an assurance that it will be taken away and that another form of words can be found which would accept in principle the underlying point made by the amendment.
Lord Wilson of Langside: My Lords, in view of what has been said, I assume that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will give an undertaking to look again at this matter. For my part, and from these Benches, I hope that he will do so and that he will look in some depth at the position of the Lord Chancellor in England and consider carefully whether something of this kind is needed. Nevertheless, it has to be borne in mind that the dimension of the nature and range of problems in our fairly small country is quite different from that in England. When these helpful suggestions came (as they occasionally did from south of the Border) I always found that there might well be something we could learn.
As well as considering everything that has been said I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will consider also the dangers that in the context of this problem we might overload the machinery for dealing with the matter. If the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate does not accept the amendment today—as perhaps he will not, in spite of weighty opinions that have been expressed; and I can understand why he is not prepared to accept it offhand and that there are matters pertinent to his field which he would have to think over rather than have to make a hasty decision sitting on the Front Bench here and now—I hope that he will take it away and look at it in considerable depth, taking into account fully the considerable differences in the legal procedure and structure of the legal machine in Scotland as against that in England.
The Earl of Perth: My Lords, I should like to ask one question of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate. It shall be the duty of the board to report annually on the exercise of its functions. Will those reports be made public or are they just for the Secretary of State?
6.30 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, notwith-standing appearing metaphorically to stand in a burning bush, I remember that the advice given by the still, small voice was, I think, accepted. I have listened with care to what noble Lords have said. Perhaps I may deal first of all with the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Perth, with regard to the publication of the report. Clause 5(7) states:
"The Secretary of State shall lay before each House of Parliament a copy of every—
(a) annual report".
So in fact the report of the board will be made public.
I would not be prepared to suggest to your Lordships that this amendment should be accepted, for a number of reasons. The first of them is that noble Lords will see the breadth of experience that the members of the board as appointed by the Secretary of State will have in Clause 1(4). Your Lordships will note, for instance, that they will be persons:
"having knowledge or experience of the law, procedure and practice of the courts, business, finance, information technology and administration, consumer or social affairs or of any other subject … which would be of assistance to the Board in the exercise of its functions".
Under subsection (5), at least one member will have:
"experience of the procedure and practice of the courts".

469
I contrast that breadth of knowledge with that which appears in subsection (1) of the proposed new clause, which states that:
"The Secretary of State shall appoint the members of the Committee with regard to their knowledge of the work of the courts and social conditions".
I suggest that that is not a good start to an advisory body.
I suggest also to your Lordships that the board itself will have access to a much wider range of information about the running of the legal aid service. It would itself be drawn from a wide range of relevant interests. I take the point, I regret to say, that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Silkin, was anticipating; it will now have the power to advise the Secretary of State directly. It will itself be enabled at any time to provide expert and objective comment with regard to the practicality and practicability of legal aid administration from its own experience.
I always hesitate to comment upon English models. Noble Lords opposite, and particularly the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, will know far better than I do what the statute provides in England. However, I believe that I am right in thinking that the English advisory committee is based upon the proposition that the Law Society's annual report—and I think I am correct in saying that the Law Society does not have the power to give advice to the Lord Chancellor—is submitted to the Lord Chancellor and is then put before the advisory committee, which then reports upon it. The two reports together are then placed before Parliament. I hope that I am correct.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, both reports are put to the Lord Chancellor and are then placed before Parliament.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I was saying that the advisory committee reports upon the Law Society's report, and then its report independently is placed before the Lord Chancellor. The two reports are then placed before Parliament. I was making the point that the Law Society does not itself have power to advise direct. No doubt it would do so privately but it has no statutory power.
The Law Society is of course a particular body. I believe I am correct in saying that the scheme within which it operates is limited in membership. We have a board of much greater width and, I suggest, of much greater experience. Accordingly, I say that the board is the proper vehicle to which the Secretary of State should look to provide the advice of the kind that is suggested here. I have already made my point about the membership of the advisory committee suggested by the noble Lord opposite.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord not accept that the two reports have a marked difference? The report of the Law Society will presumably be about their handling of legal aid, whereas the report of the advisory committee, as an independent body, will deal not only with the handling of legal aid but also with the mishandling of it. It is because it is necessary to have that objectivity with regard to mishandling, which may be much more important, that it is necessary to have the advisory committee.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, the point I have been making about the board is that it would be so broadly-based that one would be looking within its own confines to secure the objects for which it is appointed. That is unlike the present position in England, where, I understand, there is no such broadly-based administration of legal aid. I accept that there may be lay members on the committee, but I believe I am correct in saying that it is not as broadly-based as the board is here.
It comes to this. I say that the board that is to be appointed under the Bill will be sufficiently broadly based and independent to the extent that it will be the proper vehicle from which advice should be sought and to which advice should be tendered. The Government have been criticised in some quarters for appointing one new public body. I would simply say that to appoint two bodies to cover the same field and having overlapping powers would be unjustifiable.
I have listened with care to what has been said, but nothing has persuaded me that the board would not be fully qualified to give advice on the very questions to which the new clause refers. Indeed, the board is much wider based and better based in order to secure that advice and would be more appropriate in all the circumstances. The advice would of course be based on the board's own knowledge about the running of the legal aid service, and that must be a very potent factor.
For those reasons, and while I take on board the points that have been made, I suggest that the arguments for the amendment are not convincing. The board now has the power, that it did not have before, to give advice. Perhaps I should say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, that I trust he will not think I am being inflexible. I listened to what was said in Committee. Indeed, certain of the amendments that are down in my name on the present Marshalled List show my preparedness to listen in the past. So far as concerns what I have heard today, I am not convinced that there is any need for a second advisory body.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I regret to say that I find the noble and learned Lord's explanation unsatisfactory. With respect to his arguments, it appears that he misses the point. However widely constituted the board may be, it will be responsible for the administration of legal aid. It will naturally tend to defend its administration against any criticism. That is the tendency of any board, committee or body administering anything. It is therefore necessary that there should be a different body to take a new look from a distance, which can see what is going wrong.
It appears also, if the information that has been given to me is correct—and I am sure that it is—that the noble and learned Lord's reference to the burning bush was inaccurate. I believe that the small, still voice came to Elijah after a thunderstorm.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I accept that, of course, but I observe it was still listened to.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I accept that it was listened to, and I have listened to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate; but still I feel that I must test the opinion of the House.
6.40 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 8) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 74; Not-Contents, 83.

DIVISION NO. 6

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Kirkhill, L.

Amherst, E.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Ardwick, L.

Lockwood, B.

Barnett, L.

McCarthy, L.

Briginshaw, L.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

McNair, L.

Caradon, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Mishcon, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Molloy, L.

Crawshaw of Aintree, L.

Morton of Shuna, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

Nicol, B.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Northfield, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Parry, L.

Denington, B.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Denning, L.

Rochester, L.

Diamond, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Seear, B.

Ennals, L.

Selkirk, E.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Serota, B.

Foot, L.

Shackleton, L.

Gallacher, L. [Teller.]

Silkin of Dulwich, L.

Galpern, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Grey, E.

Strabolgi, L.

Hampton, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Hanworth, V.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Tordoff, L.

Hayter, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Heycock, L.

Underhill, L.

Hooson, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Hughes, L.

Walston, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Whaddon, L.

Jeger, B.

Wheatley, L.

John-Mackie, L.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Winstanley, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Gardner of Parkes, B.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Ampthill, L.

Glanusk, L.

Arran, E.

Glenarthur, L.

Ashbourne, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Auckland, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Belstead, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Birdwood, L.

Hooper, B.

Boardman, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Kimball, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Butterworth, L.

Kitchener, E.

Caithness, E.

Lauderdale, E.

Cameron of Lochbroom, L.

Layton, L.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Cathcart, E.

Long, V.

Coleraine, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Colwyn, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Craigavon, V.

Marley, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Davidson, V.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Merrivale, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Middleton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Milverton, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Mottistone, L.

Elton, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Fortescue, E.

Munster, E.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Newall, L.

472

Noel-Buxton, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Norrie, L.

Sudeley, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Swansea, L.

Perth, E.

Swinfen, L.

Platt of Writtle, B.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Portland, D.

Trumpington, B.

Rankeillour, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Renwick, L.

Vickers, B.

Rodney, L.

Vivian, L.

St. John of Bletso, L.

Ward of Witley, V.

Sandford, L.

Whitelaw, V.

Shannon, E.

Young, B.

Sharples, B.

Young of Graffham, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
6.48 p.m.
Clause 9 [Regulations may apply Part II to representation]:
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Hayter): My Lords, I have to point out that if Amendment No. 9 is passed I cannot call Amendments Nos. 10 and 11.
[Amendment No. 9 not moved.]
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 7, line 23, leave out ("section 8") and insert ("sections 8 and 10(2) ").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, for the convenience of the House I refer also to Amendment No. 11. These two amendments delete the power under which it might have been possible for the Secretary of State to confine assistance by way of representation to those in receipt of supplementary benefit or family income supplement. The amendment therefore takes account of the criticisms which were voiced by noble Lords who spoke against this provision in Committee. I beg to move.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, if I may, I speak also to Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 in congratulating the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate for having dealt with the difficulty. I support the amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 7, line 26, leave out from ("prescribed") to end of line 28 and insert ("and such modification of the financial limit under the said section 10(2) may substitute different sums in relation to different proceedings or stages of proceedings.").
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10 [Financial limit]:
Lord Morton of Shunahad given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 12:
Page 8, line 3, at end insert ("and
( ) the Board shall provide a method of appeal against the limit imposed in any case.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is designed to provide that there should be some method of appeal or review of the decision of the board as to the financial limits for advice and assistance. As I understand it, it is the intention of the Secretary of

473
State to cover this point by regulation. I shall not move the amendment.
[Amendment No. 12 not moved.]
Clause 14 [Availability of civil legal aid]:
Lord Morton of Shunahad given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 13:
Page 10, line 22, at end insert—
("( ) The Board shall provide a method of appeal against the refusal by the Board of Civil Legal Aid.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment covers the same point, and I shall not move it. Amendment No. 14 is a separate point.
[Amendment No. 13 not moved.]
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 10, line 23, leave out subsection (3).
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in speaking to this amendment, I should like also to refer to Amendment No. 45 which is consequential. The amendment removes the power of the Secretary of State to prescribe factors to be taken into account by the board in determining whether it is reasonable for a person to receive civil legal aid. We accept that there would be difficulties in putting a gloss on what constitutes reasonableness. The reasonableness criterion remains. I am confident that it will be applied by the board in a sensible and consistent manner. The later amendment is simply consequential. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 17 [Contributions, and payments out of property recovered]:
The Earl of Selkirk The Earl of Selkirk moved Amendment No. 15:
Page 11, line 31, after ("paid") insert ("out of disposable income or capital.").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I find Clause 17 slightly mysterious. It is not at all easy to see what the clause is getting at. It deals with the case of someone who is legally aided. But where his apparent income exceeds £2,255 or his capital £3,000, there appears to be an excess, the nature of which I do not know. I do not understand it. I do not know how the excess is decided.
Subsection (4) says:
"If the total contribution to the Fund made by a person in respect of any proceedings exceeds the net liability".
It is not clear to me what the net liability is. The subsection goes on:
"the excess shall be repaid to him".
I do not know who sets this. My main concern, however, relates to how it shall be paid. Subsection (5) states that it,
"shall be paid, in priority to any other debts, out of any property (wherever situate) which is recovered or preserved for him".
That means that if a man is having a contest about his house that someone may be claiming, and he is defended with legal aid, he may have to sell his house to pay the excess. That depends entirely on the cost of the proceedings. But it seems to me that that is carrying matters to an absurd degree. I suggest here
474
that it should be made out of his disposable income or capital as laid down in Clause 42. I do not know whether that is the correct procedure. My real objection is that a person may lose the domicile where he is living. It is possible that he may recover the house but that the costs of the case will be such that he would lose it. That seems to me not only unjust but also quite absurd.
I am not saying that those operating this part of the Bill will not be people of munificent outlook or that they will be unkind. I am, however, saying that my amendment is perfectly possible. I suggest, with great respect, that my noble and learned friend should examine the matter. If my amendment is unsatisfactory, another could be proposed that does not make the excessive demands and, if I may say so, arbitrary demands contained in the Bill. I do not know how one reaches the net liability requirement, or who calculates the excess. But if the excess reached a certain point, the litigant—he may be a defender or a pursuer—could lose his house. He may, indeed, be defending his house and endeavouring to keep it against someone pursuing him in court.
I ask my noble and learned friend to look at this matter to see whether the words in the Bill do not go too far in giving power for payment in priority to any other debts—before the baker, the candlestick maker or anyone else, and including the rent. This goes back to the discussion that took place in Committee. It is a question of establishing to what extent one can say that it should be paid in priority over any other debt. I know that this relates to debts of recovery, but the recovery may be the house. I beg to move.
Lord Denning: My Lords, this is a problem that has arisen a great deal in England when a man gets legal aid, his costs are paid, and he wins. The costs that have been incurred on his behalf are a first charge on the money he receives. If it is a personal injury case and he gets £100,000, it is natural enough that the costs that have been incurred should be recovered. The real trouble arises when there is a matrimonial home with each side legally aided. Each side gets property recovered or preserved. The question arises of how far the cost should be a charge on it.
We have wrestled with this matter in England. All sorts of problems arise. It is not a matter, I believe, that can be resolved at this stage. I hope that it will be resolved in England. In those circumstances, it could perhaps be done afterwards for Scotland. At the moment, however, the law in Scotland remains the same as it is in England. It needs detailed examination and perhaps the introduction of regulations to make for a just situation.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, there is, I agree, a great problem that seems to be the same in England as it is in Scotland. It appears to me that the way to deal with it is to give the board discretion under some regulation or other.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I have listened to my noble friend with great care. I do not wish to traverse argument that has already been covered in Committee. I wish to make clear to my noble friend a problem that he has not perhaps fully

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appreciated. Subsection (2) is intended to deal with how a person's contribution to the Legal Aid Fund is to be calculated. This can be done in two ways. First, he will only be asked for a contribution from income if his disposable income exceeds the figure set out there, and equally, so far as capital is concerned, if his disposable capital exceeds the figure set out. The words "disposable income" and "disposable capital" are defined in the Bill and covered by regulations.
Subsection (5) provides for the situation where there are sums remaining unpaid in respect of a person's contribution to the fund in respect of any proceedings. Very often, they are paid on a monthly basis. It may be that at the end of the litigation he has still not completed his payment of the contributions at which he has been assessed. Secondly, there may be the circumstance that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, pointed out where the expenses against his account at the end of the day are greater than the amount that he has been called upon to contribute, but, as a result of the action, there has been property that has been recovered or preserved for him. What is provided here is that those sums remaining unpaid in respect of contribution of what is called the deficiency, by reason of his total contribution being less than the net liability of the fund on his account, are to be paid in priority to any other debts out of that property which is recovered either in proceedings or under any settlement that avoids proceedings or brings them to an end.
The main argument for retaining this—it is the position in both England and Wales and in Scotland at present—is that the scheme is not intended to place assisted litigants in a more favourable position than those who are fully able to pay the costs involved. We would not disturb the normal state of affairs, in which all litigants run a risk of their litigation being successful but not providing the expected benefit. That is where some difference is considered in raising an action against an assisted person. He has to take account of the financial consequences. This is very relevant where both parties are assisted.
7 p.m.
My noble friend's principal concern was in relation to the living house. Obviously I shall look at what my noble friend said. However, I am advised that when the assessment of contribution arises and the living house is the subject matter of the dispute, it would normally be excluded from the calculation of what is disposable capital for the purpose of sub-paragraph (ii). I am advised that that is done under the assessment of resources regulation.
My noble friend's concern arises in divorce proceedings in particular. I should say that in relation to that the Family Law (Scotland) Act, which will be brought into operation later this year, will give the Scottish courts a specific power to make an order for the transfer of property. Orders following divorce are at present in general exempt from the claims of the legal aid fund. It is intended that this practice should continue in relation to the new provisions of the Family Law Act.
I should have thought that it would be unusual for the house in which an assisted party lives to be
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property recovered or preserved in non-matrimonial proceedings. Perhaps it could arise in a dispute between persons with a joint interest. In those circumstances, I would merely say that at the moment I am not persuaded that there is any general reason why the normal rules should not apply. For these reasons I cannot therefore suggest to your Lordships that the principle of this amendment be accepted.
There is a technical point upon the phraseology of the amendment itself. It would not seem to make sense if each of the proposals were to be met. But I have listened to what my noble friend has said. Perhaps I can consider the matter further in the light of his remarks, although I cannot suggest that there will be anything done in this Bill about the matter.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said. I think he should take note of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, said: that it causes great difficulty in England. Why should we write a new Act in Scotland which will cause equal difficulty? Surely it is for the intelligence of the draftsman and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to write a better clause which would not cause so much difficulty.
The noble and learned Lord is right: I am concerned with a comparatively narrow matter. But one may be recovering one's house. Someone may have a false title, and may be claiming this house. At the end of the day one gets it back. What happens then? One has to pay the lawyer. Then one comes to the wholly undefined matter of the excess. Who sets the excess? How is the excess determined? There is nothing in this clause to say how it is assessed. In spite of regulations there should be more precise provision as to how this matter is calculated.
The noble and learned Lord is right in saying that my chief concern is the question of the house, the tools of trade or the machinery. There may be many matters which one is recovering at law. In my opinion they should not be distrained on.
The noble and learned Lord has said that he will look at it. I am sure that he will do his best. I shall not press this further but will ask the noble and learned Lord to try to see whether a rather more watertight section can be put forward which does not have these "exceptional" qualities, where one does not have to use words such as "normally", or "unusually". That is no earthly use in law. The law should not allow for these exceptions. However, I shall leave it with the noble and learned Lord and shall expect some result. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, this may be a convenient moment at which to adjourn this Report stage. I therefore beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned, and suggest that we do not resume before 8.15 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Patents, Designs and Marks Bill [H.L.]
7.6 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD HAYTER in the Chair.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Hayter): I must announce that the published Marshalled List of Amendments has not been printed in accordance with the instruction of 6th March. Accordingly, photocopies of the correct list have been placed in the Printed Paper Office. But to avoid confusion the original numbering of the amendments has been retained in the Marshalled List which we shall consider.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Computerisation]:
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 4, line 11, leave out ("names, addresses and descriptions") and insert ("names and addresses").
The noble Lord said: This is a small but important amendment which will save a lot of time for practitioners and industrialists concerned with trade marks. The schedule is concerned with computerisation. The main object is to enable the registrar, the Comptroller-General of Patents, Designs and Trade Marks, to keep a register other than in documentary form. Therefore he can use a computer and those associated arrangements in information technology.
Hitherto it has always been the practice that anybody who applies for a trade mark should give his name and address and description. That has raised a number of difficulties. I shall not weary your Lordships with the difficulties. It seemed to me that "descriptions" could be omitted. Therefore, all that is necessary now is for an applicant to give his name and address. That will save a certain amount of time, expense and secretarial work generally. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am most obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, for explaining the purpose of his Amendment No. 4. I think that I am right in saying that he was at the same time speaking to Amendment No. 5. His explanation is eminently satisfactory. We have no hesitation in accepting both these amendments, and thank the noble Lord for putting them forward.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am very much obliged to the noble Lord the Minister. I omitted to ask the leave of the Committee to speak also to Amendment No. 5, which raises exactly the same point in a different circumstance.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 4, line 14, leave out ("names, addresses and descriptions") and insert ("names and addresses").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 4, line 21, at end insert—
("( ) A computer containing the register shall be maintained at the premises of the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire, Sheffield.").
The noble Lord said: The amendment draws attention to the fact that the Company of Cutlers has for over 360 years been concerned with very valuable marks in the steel and associated industries, known as Sheffield marks. "Sheffield" is a registered trade mark and it is the only town whose name is registered as a trade mark in this country. This is not the place to deplore any action that the Government propose to take in future in regard to the arrangements for dealing with Sheffield marks under the care of the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire as it has been going on for so many centuries. However, I wish to suggest that in the circumstances a computer containing the register should be maintained at the premises of the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire.
No doubt the Government will be dealing in a later Bill with the question of the methods of administering marks under the Company of Cutlers' regime. They will be considering installing computers, and various nationwide terminals will be searched to give facilities in this regard and will be under consideration by the Government. Quite clearly Sheffield is geographically and historically an ideal position for setting up at least one computer containing the register.
It has been the function of the Company of Cutlers to look after these trade marks and to receive the applications. However, that is not the point with which we are concerned at present. We are concerned with whether or not the Government will give some consideration to the installation of a control computer containing the register in Sheffield. Unemployment is very high in that area and to remove that function from the Company of Cutlers will, I am advised, cause quite unnecessarily a loss of jobs in that area. However, the installation of a computer in Sheffield would be from a geographical and a historical point of view a good idea. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: In responding to the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, it may be helpful for me to remind the Committee that when I spoke during the Second Reading debate on the Bill I indicated that one reason the provisions relating to the registers were being amended was to free the Patent Office of the requirement to keep the registers at a particular place and thus a computerised register could be kept wherever was most convenient to the Patent Office. Therefore, it would clearly not be appropriate to replace that with an obligation to maintain a computer in Sheffield.
We recently announced that the Patent Office is to become a statutory non-departmental body subject to commercial constraints. The question of whether there should be regionally based registers and, if so, where they should be located, should be a matter for the board of management of the hived-off Patent

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Office. It would not be right in advance of that change of responsibility to saddle the office with a statutory obligation either to maintain a computer in Sheffield or, if that is what is envisaged, to adapt its system to allow access from remote terminals. Incidentally, it has been estimated that such an adaptation may cost many hundreds of thousands of pounds.
The noble Lord has indicated that the computer envisaged by this amendment would be in an independent unit maintained by the Company of Cutlers, presumably at is own expense. That is a matter for the Company of Cutlers. It does not need legislation to allow it to do that.
I should perhaps add quite briefly that the Mathys Report of British Trade Mark Law and Practice recommended in 1974 that provisions of the Trade Marks Act 1938 which relate to the Sheffield register and the Company of Cutlers should be repealed at a suitable opportunity. The Government fully understand the dismay with which this is viewed by the Company of Cutlers which naturally takes proper and considerable pride in its long association with the registration of trade marks. However, the report noted in 1974 that those provisions were more of historical rather than industrial interest and the Government have therefore decided to do this in legislation which will be necessary in order to hive off the Patent Office. It should be emphasised that the current position of the Sheffield register is not affected by the Bill before your Lordships this evening.
With that explanation I have to say that the Government must resist the amendment. Notwith-standing the affection with which the Company of Cutlers is held in Sheffield and the point that the noble Lord made with regard to the current employment position in Sheffield which is not unknown to us, I hope that the explanation which I have given will enable him to withdraw the amendment.
7.15 p.m.
Lord Bruce of Donington: I have listened carefully to the short explanation given by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, and to the Minister's reply. I must say that I remain to be convinced that the Government ought to resist the amendment. It may well be that over the whole sphere of activities commercialism should finally prevail and the dictates of making profit out of these operations should hold sway over all other considerations. However, I am not always sure that that is the best guide.
The noble Lord was kind enough to pay tribute to the expertise that is exercised by the Company of Cutlers and that, I think, is probably well earned. However, there is a tradition in the Company of Cutlers with which I am not familiar but which I am quite sure exists, and I think that the Government should think more than once before they do anything to damage what may to some seem to be a relic of the past—a past which in many cases has been quite magnificent and which has performed enormous service. Therefore, personally speaking—and I cannot commit my colleagues on this because I have not discussed it with them—I am in general sympathy with the amendment and I shall be required to be convinced a great deal more before I oppose it.
Lord Mottistone: Surely the great thing about a computer is that it does not matter where it is located; if you operate one, it is the terminal equipment that matters. It is understandable that the cutlers want to keep the link which they had previously, but it can be only a tenuous link now that we have moved on from quill pens and large registers, which no doubt was the position when they started. Even the cutlers, if they were given a particular task in this area, may not want to have the computer in Sheffield; it may be more convenient for them to have it somewhere else in the country. It seems to me that this particular amendment is not wholly suited for the type of purpose which the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, has advanced. There may be some other way of retaining a link apart from trying to locate the computer in a particular place. That does not seem to me to be appropriate, whatever courses we may consider for retaining the longstanding historical connections of the Company of Cutlers.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: This might be the appropriate time for me to flesh out a little the point which I was trying to make. I am obliged to my noble friend Lord Mottistone, who so succinctly put his finger on the major point; namely, that in this modern technological age flexibility is the prime concern. It may be of interest to the Committee to know that the repeal of the Sheffield marks provision was originally put on the cards prior to the 1938 Act.
Of course we understand that the move we are making may be a disappointment to the Cutlers Company. Their association with the registration of trade marks is a long one. It goes back to 1624. But, as I have indicated, the Mathys Committee in 1974 considered whether this position served a useful purpose, and concluded at that time that it did not.
The number of applications a year that the Cutlers Company now receive has not exceeded 20 for some considerable time. In several recent years it has in fact been in single figures. The fee income to the Cutlers Company is therefore extremely small. An application fee is only £54, so 10 or 15 applications are not going materially to affect the fortunes of the company.
Those are two of the principal reasons. Of course the ending of a long tradition is always a matter for regret. The present link between the Cutlers Company and the Patent Office cannot, however, be justified on practical grounds. With that additional information, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, for his approach to this matter, which is wholly in line with the approach I made in my submissions. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, for bringing forward a practical suggestion that possibly instead of having the computer in Sheffield, as I am asked to put to the Committee, there may be some other way of creating a link which preserves to some extent this prestigious arrangement associated with a prestigious trade mark.
The noble Lord the Minister has been helpful in reminding me that there will be an opportunity for consideration of regionally-based registers in due course. Therefore, I do not think I should be tempted

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at this hour of the evening to go into the decision or recommendation of the Mathys report of over 11 years ago. That is a discussion that we can have more appropriately when the Bill comes along which, as the noble Lord the Minister said, is to hive off the Patent Office. I have heard what the Minister has said, and in these circumstances I reserve the right to bring back the matter later if I am so advised. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 5, leave out lines 1 to 4.
The noble Lord said: I beg leave to move Amendment No. 7, and I ask leave of the Committee to speak to Amendment No 21. This raises an important matter. The importance of the matter has been recognised by the advisers to the noble Lord the Minister, and I should like to say how grateful I am for the assistance given to me particularly by Mr. Susman in this connection in discussing with me beforehand the kind of reply that might be given on many of these amendments.
As the Bill stands at the moment, Section 46 is to be deleted. That would be entirely wrong. Section 46 is the section which says:
"In all legal proceedings relating to a registered trade mark (including applications under section 32 of this Act) the fact that a person is registered as proprietor of the trade mark shall be prima facie evidence of the validity of the original registration of the trade mark and of all subsequent assignments and transmissions thereof".
That section enables the registration to be prima facie evidence of its validity as well as the ownership. In deleting Section 46 the Government have not, in the Bill as it stands at present, adequate wording to make that position of Section 46 perfectly clear. If Section 46 is omitted, then in order for a proprietor of a trade mark to establish the validity of the original registration, it would be necessary for more expense to be incurred.
In this connection there has been correspondence with the department arising from a friend of mine at the patent Bar, Mr. Morcom. It is his argument that I am putting forward to the Committee at the present time. I understand that the Government will sympathise with the approach I have made, and I believe that they will agree that Section 46 should be retained, and the passage at the top of page 5, subparagraph (8), deleted, leaving Section 46 in to explain the position in regard to registration and validity. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: May I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, for the remarks he made in connection with officials in my department? I am most grateful to him. I apologise to the noble Lord that I was not in the country at the time to discuss this matter with him.
As the noble Lord said, the new Section 1(8) of the Trade Marks Act 1938 provides that the register itself shall be prima facie evidence of anything required or authorised to be registered. The wording was adopted because it is used in similar provisions being re-enacted in the Designs and Patents Act. The new Section 1(8) is intended to have the same effect in practice as the existing Section 46, although cast in rather different terms.
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Several members of the trade marks Bar have expressed the view, as indeed has the noble Lord, that new Section 1(8) is not in fact equivalent to existing Section 46. The Government have reconsidered the question and believe these criticisms to be well founded. Therefore, I am in the happy position of advising the noble Lord and the Committee that we are happy to accept these amendments. I should like to thank the noble Lord for bringing this matter to our attention.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Schedule 1, as amended, shall be the first schedule to the Bill?
7.30 p.m.
Lord Northfield: I want to say a few words on the schedule. As the noble Lord the Minister knows, there was on the Marshalled List until late last week another amendment to Schedule 1. As a result of (shall we say?) misunderstandings at any rate, the amendment was taken off the Marshalled List. I shall be proposing, unless the Minister says a few helpful words this evening, to return to this matter at Report stage.
The matter concerns the effect of the licences of right provision found in the 1977 Act on the pharmaceutical industry. I am not going to develop my case in the absence of the amendment. I shall simply say, in case it tempts the Minister to say something helpful this evening, that this was an amendment which, as he knows, was pushed through the other place without any debate or explanation in the late stages of the 1977 Act.
When it came here, nobody spotted its effects, and nobody explained it here. It is only in the past couple of years or so that the mischief of the amendment, now part of the Act, is being felt. It is a mischief of some considerable importance. It was a side door to return to compulsory licensing which this Chamber, on my own movement in 1977, had deleted anyway. It was a half-way house back again. We did not understand what the amendment meant when it reached us here.
There are no guidelines for the comptroller in exercising the powers of licence of right. There is none in any competitor country. The effect of the present Act is that any copyist can demand a licence of right in the last four years of any patents filed between 1967 and 1978. This is causing an enormous mischief. It is now in the courts; it is before the comptroller; it is in the House of Lords and this House has sent it to the European Court. I shall not develop this further, but the fact is that the Government are sympathetic to getting rid of it. The question is: how soon? I submit that there is no time like the present. There is no reason why this Bill should not be quickly adapted to make this amendment the law concerning patents. If the noble Lord can help us now it might be helpful at this point and it would have some influence on what we do at Report stage.
There is one point on which I hope the Minister will be able to say something at Report stage, if not now. Some of the mischief could be undone now by the powers under Section 123 in the 1977 Act. I believe

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that under that section the Minister can give guidance to the comptroller for the exercise of his powers in this respect. If the Government intend to repeal this, or will promise to do so, it would be helpful if in the meantime they gave some guidelines to the comptroller to help to undo much of the mischief.
I have done my duty by raising the matter. I am sorry that through misunderstanding the amendment was withdrawn from the Marshalled List. I should have fought it tooth and nail this evening if it had not been withdrawn. I give notice that I shall want to return to it at some length at Report stage unless the Minister can give such assurances tonight that I shall not need to do so.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, has emphasised several times that the amendment was withdrawn as a result of a misunderstanding. I think I should dilute the view that that gives to the Committee, because I deliberately put down the amendment and deliberately had it withdrawn, for a very simple reason. I had been informed by a colleague from the other place that all these matters were under discussion with the Minister. It did not seem to me appropriate that matters of such great importance as licences of right should come within the ambit of a small Bill such as this, narrow in its consequences and its functions. That was my reason. There was no misunderstanding. It was a deliberate action on my part, and if I have disappointed the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, I am very sorry.
Lord Northfield: I think the misunderstanding was that the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, thought that I would not be here this evening, and therefore he thought he had better withdraw it in case I was not here to move it in his absence. I am saying that that was the basic misunderstanding. I bear no grudge towards my noble friend and I am more anxious to hear what the Minister has to say.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I should supplement that by saying that there was some difficulty in knowing where either the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, or I would be when, through the usual channels, it was arranged when this Bill would be taken. There was much co-operation with regard to fixing a time suitable to both of us. Happily, it has been convenient.
Lord Bruce of Donington: The amendment that has been withdrawn attracted my attention when it appeared on the Marshalled List. I have taken the opportunity to investigate some of the issues that lay behind it. My noble friend will forgive me if I say that I am naturally suspicious if somebody refers to a mischief and if it is said that the Government are considering sympathetically rectifying such mischief. My political instincts suddenly become acute.
It is only fair to say that certain issues are raised by the amendment that has been withdrawn. Perhaps I may particularise on them a little without enlarging the scope of the debate. They are matters relating to the pharmaceutical industry and concern the pharmaceutical giants and, in the past, in relation to a
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very limited area, some smaller competitors who have been able to produce at a far lower price with consequential reductions, it is said (and I still have to verify this) to the expenditure on the National Health Service. From my point of view, I should like to investigate the matter further before I pass an opinion on it.
My intervention therefore is to say to my noble friend, to the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, and to the Government that I give notice that if this matter is raised at a later stage we may take a perhaps more active part in this debate than the non-controversial terms in which it is generally expressed justify for the purpose of this Committee.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: It is not for me to come between the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, and any of his colleagues. I resist the temptation tonight. I have some sympathy with what underlies the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Northfield—he was kind enough to discuss this with me a week or so ago—and I shall study carefully what he said about this matter in 1977 as well as this evening. On the other hand, the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, had this about right. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, expresses instincts which suggest to me that we might enter into a controversial area.
Let me tell the Committee how we see the position at present. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry said last autumn to representatives of the industry that he would consider a repeal if they could demonstrate that there had been a significant erosion in this useful patent life since the existing legislation was passed in 1977. The Government are satisfied that the industry has demonstrated this. We are therefore prepared to introduce legislation having this effect.
However, this Bill is not the place for such a measure. As the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, said, this Bill has a very limited scope and is, or has been up to now, non-controversial. Allowance has been made for it in the parliamentary timetable on this basis. We do not feel that the subject that the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, has raised is germane to the limited purposes of this Bill; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, indicates, there might be some controversy over it. Its inclusion therefore might cause problems for the progress of this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, recognises that. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, will not recognise it. He shakes his head in acknowledgment.
We announced that we intend to implement the legislation providing for service marks registration on 1st October this year. That is contingent on the passage of this Bill. Undue delay could therefore prejudice that date being met.
There are a couple of other reasons; there are more than a couple, but two spring to mind. There is an important policy point to be decided; namely, what transitional arrangements should be made. That is a point that I suspect the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, would like to raise. I cannot tell him, because we have not provided for that in this Bill. The Bill before the Committee would be prejudiced. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, to consider carefully and read

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tomorrow what we are saying in Committee this evening. I am sure that he will.
I should like him to know that the Government are prepared to legislate on this subject in the next relevant Bill. It has been announced that legislation will be introduced in due course to implement the decision which has been announced already to make the Patent Office a statutory non-departmental body and for other matters connected with intellectual property. The Government consider that this would be a suitable vehicle and are prepared to undertake to include in it provisions to repeal the provisions relating to licences of right for 1949 Act patents for pharmaceutical products. With that I hope that the Committee this evening and the House when it resumes its consideration of the Bill at report stage will leave the matter until a much more appropriate time when we can consider it. This is a matter of significant importance, but it is not without its difficulties and controversies.
Lord Bruce of Donington: May I ask the noble Lord whether it is the Government's intention to produce a White Paper on this aspect of the matter so that there may be some discussion about it before the Bill itself comes out?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I am informed that in another place an announcement is being made today, I think, in Answer to a Written Question, that a White Paper is to be published tomorrow. I think this may help noble Lords.
Lord Northfield: I am grateful to everyone who has spoken and particularly to the Minister both for talking to me last week and for his kind remarks this evening. I shall, of course, consider what to do before Report stage but, if I may say so, during a very long time in Parliament I have heard Ministers year in and year out saying that now is not the time to rock a particular boat. We have often rocked the boat, or so Ministers thought, and it had no effect whatsoever. A Bill has steamed on its way and the apparent difficulties have been quickly overcome once Parliament has been very tough and stated its desire. So I cannot accept that this will in some way delay this Bill. It is a very short amendment that is needed and in my view it would not take long to debate.
But there is a further point. I think that there is a danger in leaving it any longer—and one of the main companies involved in this copying trade are not really developers of drugs; they are simply copyists who import the material from abroad and take advantage of the forumula which has been worked out by research here or by the company owning the patent. One of the difficulties is that there are now filed applications for 30 of these licences on major drugs—at least a dozen of the most important drugs in everyday use in medicine today. What is having to happen, because there are no guidelines in the Act, is that all this is now having to be dragged through the courts. It is court-made law; it is having to go to the European courts to see how they feel about it all. At the end of the day, when all this money has been spent apparently in the next year, in the next 18 months or two years—for goodness knows when the Government
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will legislate—the Government will come along and say, "It all should not have happened; we should have repealed it. We have always been intending to repeal it".
Why then should we go through all this time of high and escalating legal costs, confusion and deterrence to the industry, putting the British pharmaceutical industry at a disadvantage compared with other competitive countries: for no other country has this situation. Why should we go through all that, if, in any case, the Government want to repeal it? Is it not better to seize the opportunity of a short amendment to the Title to this Bill, a very short amendment and a very short new clause? That is my position and I stand by it for the moment, though with great pleasure and many thanks I shall consider what the noble Lord has said this evening.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
7.45 p.m.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 1:
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
("Communications with trade mark agents.
.—(1) Any communication with a trade mark agent concerning intellectual property rights shall be privileged from disclosure in the same manner as a communication concerning such rights with a solicitor of the Supreme Court.
(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above a reference to a trade mark agent shall be a reference to an ordinary member of the Institute of Trade Mark Agents or a list of Trade Mark Agents controlled by the Registrar of Trade Marks.").
The noble Lord said: In order to revert to the atmosphere of non-controversiality may I say I feel that it is rather a record that, of five amendments that I have produced this evening, four have been accepted by the Government?
Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am very much obliged for the great applause for our achievement from these Benches. But I think my luck is coming to an end on the next amendment. This is a very important amendment; it is quite a simple thing. It is to give patent agents and trade mark agents the same kind of privilege as solicitors have now in proceedings and in matters of consideration of problems arising from intellectual property. Privilege means that the documents, the letters passing between the parties, cannot be disclosed, cannot be discovered, as we say. You can resist discovery of documents; that is to say, the official way of extracting documents from the other side in a contest can be resisted if you use a solicitor.
In these modern days patent agents and trade mark agents have a very important function, particularly in regard to the creation of wealth. I am not exaggerating. Patent agents and trade mark agents are very close to industry. They understand what is happening and internationally they are respected for their knowledge. Many of them are very well experienced in engineering and in science and, therefore, it seems (to use the words of a learned judge in a recent decision, Mr. Justice Nourse) to be perverse that patent agents and trade mark agents should not have the same protection from discovery of their documents as have solicitors.

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I am always very reluctant to speak about a case in which I have been involved but I can tell it in general terms. I was appearing for a very small company in the electronic field. We thought we had a very good case and we wrote to the trade mark agent about it. The trade mark agent then replied and asked his clients certain things, entered into a lot of correspondence, and then it went to court. We asked for discovery. The trade mark agent had to disclose all the correspondence. One of the letters he disclosed was a personal letter to the managing director of the company, a very large company, to say, "You have got a very poor case here. They are bound to win if it comes to court. If you let me have £500, I will frighten the pants off this small firm".
Naturally, when that document came up we took every advantage of it and got a very good settlement for the small firm against the large one. That was a bit of luck for my clients. But it is wholly wrong when a trade mark agent is being asked to advise that he has to say to the client, "Do not go on any further. If there is going to be any trouble, we must bring in a solicitor". Therefore, it increases the costs of already very expensive litigation and considerations in intellectual property unless patent agents and trade mark agents have full protection by way of discovery.
I must also point out that trade mark agents and patent agents have audience before certain courts. I shall not waste your Lordships' time by indicating which courts; but they are able to present cases to certain courts. In a recent case this matter as to the legal professional privilege of trade mark agents was raised before Mr. Justice Nourse and it is reported in Reports of Patent Cases, 1983, page 131, as follows:
"At various stages in the dispute, the defendents were represented not by their solicitors but by their trade mark agents who acted in the same way as solicitors would have acted if they had been instructed".
The learned judge, Mr. Justice Nourse, pointed out that for many years it had been the practice of both patent agents and trade mark agents to conduct proceedings in the Patent Office and the Trade Marks Registry without the intervention of solicitors. Then he goes on to say:
"It is with very great reluctance that I come to the conclusion that there is no professional privilege for the trade mark agents in this case".
The circumstances which caused his reluctance were that he relied upon two cases—one of 1881 and another of 1886—where the circumstances of trade and commercial dealing were so completely different. He went on, and I quote,
"I see great force in that submission".
The submission was that the trade mark agents should have protection from discovery. He went on:
"It seems odd and perverse, that if a trade mark agent was entitled to advise a client in relation to legal matters and to conduct certain legal proceedings on his behalf, the same privilege should not apply as would certainly apply in a case where the advice was being given and the proceedings were being conducted by a solicitor".
This is a probing amendment and I do not propose to force it to a Division, but it is a matter to which due consideration should be given by the Government. In speaking to this amendment, I would ask the leave of the Committee to speak also to Amendment No. 2,
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and perhaps I should say that both these amendments are somewhat similar.
Amendment No. 1 is limited to the position of a trade mark agent. Amendment No. 2 refers to both patent agents and trade mark agents. I should say to the noble Lord the Minister that I think that second amendment, which deals with both patent agents and trade mark agents, is defective in one respect. There is no reference in that amendment as it stands to the position of patent agents in regard to discovery as now set out in the evidence Act of 1968 and in the Patents Act of 1977. Therefore I would put the point to the Minister that better wording should be considered for a future occasion; but it is a matter of very considerable importance. I therefore move this amendment in the hope of getting a sympathetic answer from the Minister. I beg to move.
Lord Bruce of Donington: I view with some sympathy the arguments that have been put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran. In general, I would support what he said, for two reasons. First, I believe that his arguments stand on their own feet as being meritorious and deserving of the serious consideration of your Lordships' Committee. Secondly, I must confess that I support it in order to protect my own position when your Lordships come to discuss the Financial Services Bill and such Bills as I believe the Government intend to bring in, covering the more rigorous prosecution of fraud.
In many ways, and within those two contexts, the role of accountants is analogous to that of the patent agent and the trade mark agent. We in the accountancy profession have to advise clients on highly confidential matters—every whit as confidential as those communications that pass between a solicitor and his client. Indeed I have only to speak of the whole field of taxation, where I think it is common knowledge that, although legal cases are processed through the courts by solicitors and by members of the Bar, the whole essence of a given tax case of any complexity is mainly a matter for the accountant; and detailed, highly confidential documents must pass between the accountant and his client.
In order to protect myself, therefore, so that the noble Lord may not say when these Bills come before your Lordships, and on the basis that he will be in charge of them, "You didn't agree in principle with the privilege when it came through on the Patents, Designs and Marks Bill", I think I ought to lay down a marker now. However, I would emphasise that irrespective of the likely future position of my own profession when it comes to those other Bills, I entirely support what the noble Lord has said this evening. Were he minded to press the matter further on Report, I might consider asking my colleagues to marshal their forces in his support.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I was fairly happy when the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, in moving the amendment, opined that his luck might have run out; but I am not quite so confident in the light of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington. I shall in fact have to resist this amendment for these reasons, notwithstanding that I recognise the importance of members of the profession

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to which the noble Lord referred, particularly in commercial and industrial matters.
The Government have been aware for some time of the concern felt in the professions on the subject of privilege. As the noble Lord kows, I think, we are consulting both the standing advisory committees. Also, the Bar and the Law Society are represented on the committees. So at this moment we are still considering the question and we would resist the matter being dealt with in this Bill. Apart from the fact that a decision on whether to legislate would be premature, as I explained to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, the amendments would extend the scope of the Bill. They are also likely to be extremely controversial.
Privilege of communication is not conferred lightly, and its extension to patent agents is exceptional. The profession of patent agent is subject to supervision, as is that of a barrister or solicitor, whereas that of a trade mark agent is not. Also, the patent agent is not subject to the same supervision when doing non-patent work. I believe one must think more than once before extending the privilege to an unsupervised profession. There might well be notice given that there are indeed other professions which may claim the same privilege, and I take very much to heart what the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, said about legislation in the future. However, my job is of course to deal with legislation tonight.
The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, indirectly referred to the 1982 High Court case in which the learned judge used the phrase that he found it "a little odd and possibly perverse" that if a trade mark agent is entitled to advise a client in regard to certain legal matters and to conduct certain legal proceedings on his behalf, the same privilege should not apply, and so on. The noble Lord will no doubt recall that in 1984 in the Court of Appeal, the higher court, in the Wilder pump case, it was decided that the court found it not at all odd or perverse. They indeed found it impossible to say that there was any public interest in extending it.
I do not want to repeat the argument about putting this Bill in jeopardy in another place. I would prefer to be very much more direct. While I and my colleagues will reflect carefully on what has been said by both noble Lords, I have to say that I can hold out little hope for a change of heart during the passage of this Bill.
8 p.m.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I am very much obliged to the noble Lord the Minister for his careful reply to my submissions. May I, if it is not contravening any Standing Orders, ask the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, in view of his support of my position on privilege for trade mark agents and patent agents, if at any time in the future he feels he has to raise the question of privilege in regard to accountants, he should remind me that he has supported me on this occasion.
I am fully aware of the problems which this question of privilege raises. However, there was an observation made by the noble Lord the Minister which I must contradict. I did not get the exact words, but the impression was given that the Institute of Trade Mark
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Agents is not an institute which has control over its members adequately. That is wholly wrong, to my knowledge. It has very considerable control over its members, and it runs examinations so that they can reach certain standards before they are qualified. This, of course, also applies to patent agents, and therefore I think that possibly I may have misunderstood the noble Lord when he was putting a little difficulty in the way that does not really exist in practice. Nevertheless, in view of what has been said I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]
Schedule 2 [Service Marks etc]:
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 9, line 6, after ("mark") insert ("or a mark").
The noble Lord said: This is a very minor matter. It is to insert after the words "trade mark" the words "or a mark". The word "mark" by itself is defined in the Trade Marks Act in Section 68, and it is used in Section 38 and other sections, such as Section 9(1), and also in Part III of this schedule to the Bill. It seemed to me, therefore, that where you are dealing with a trade mark it sometimes applies also to a mark being used, so it was just a minor matter to make it more consistent with the whole of the rest of the legislation that where the words "trade mark" are used in this particular case there should be added that the same conditions should apply to "a mark" as defined under the Trade Marks Act 1938.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I assume that the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, is speaking at one and the same time to Amendments Nos. 11 and 19 of this grouping.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I was not on this occasion. I see that a note has been circulated that Amendments Nos. 8, 11 and 19 should be taken together, but both No. 11 and No. 19 raise quite different points.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: In that case I would have wished that the noble Lord could have advised me when we sent our traditional, conventional note out with regard to groupings. However, I will do the best I can. Perhaps before moving to this particular amendment I may make a comment on the matter that we were discussing with regard to the Institute of Trade Mark Agents during the passage of the last amendment, because the noble Lord made a specific point. It is true, of course, as he pointed out, that the Institute of Trade Mark Agents has articles, and so on, and has control over membership, but in fact that control is not statutory. The responsibility to which I was referring was a statutory responsibility.
The amendment that the noble Lord seeks to move in No. 8 is a little complicated, and is complicated a little more by virtue of Nos. 11 and 19. What I should like to say here is that at present Sheffield marks as trade marks for what are referred to as metal goods are dealt with, along with trade marks generally, in the Trade Marks Act 1938. The amending Act, the Trade Marks (Amendment) Act 1984, as it stands at present

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unamended by this Bill, will modify the 1938 Act so that it may also apply to service marks.
In most respects the 1984 Act does this by providing (in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to that Act) that, at each place in the 1938 Act at which one comes across a reference to goods, it is to be read as also applying to services. This, superficially, is how the provisions of the 1938 Act relating to Sheffield marks are to be read. This really does not make any sense at all, since the provisions refer to metal goods and to goods made of metal. The present position is, therefore, that no clear provision is made for Sheffield service marks.
Normally there are two ways in which one might deal with the matter. Either a form of wording could be found which created a service mark equivalent to Sheffield trade marks, or else these provisions could be specifically omitted from the 1938 Act in its application to service marks. The Government decided on the latter course for two reasons: first, it is our view that there is really no service mark analogy to a Sheffield mark, which is by its nature for goods; secondly, the Government have decided to implement the recommendation of the Mathys Report that the Sheffield Register should be discontinued. I referred to this in our discussions earlier this evening. Even if that decision were not implemented it would not be appropriate to expand the scope of the Sheffield Register.
Accordingly, therefore, the present Bill deals with this by amending Schedule 1 to the 1984 Act so that Section 38 and Schedule 2 to the 1938 Act are omitted when that Act is applied to service marks. Therefore, while there will continue for the present to be provision for Sheffield trade marks for metal goods, there will be no Sheffield service marks.
The proposed amendment, and indeed the other two as far as I can see, while purporting to provide for Sheffield service marks, do not in any way indicate how it would be decided to what services they applied. It might be as well if I re-emphasised here that the present position of the Sheffield Register is not affected by the Bill before the Committee tonight.
It is for those reasons that I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendments. I am, of course, quite prepared to consider the wider issues of the points he has made. Perhaps with that assurance he might feel able to withdraw so that perhaps we could discuss this and the matters which are relevant to Amendments No. 11 and 19 in the wider context before, perhaps, the next stage.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: I apologise if I embarrassed the Minister in any way by taking Amendment No. 8 by itself. I only had the privilege of seeing the document which groups the amendments within about 10 minutes of coming into the Chamber. The Minister's reply will be helpful in shortening my speech on Amendment No. 11. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 8.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth Lord Lucas of Chilworth moved Amendments Nos. 9 and 10:
Page 9, line 16, at end insert—
("(aa) in the Printer's Imprint Act 1961, subsection (1) of section 1 (relaxation of requirements as to printer's imprint etc.);")
Page 9, line 40, at end insert—
("(gg) in the Supreme Court Act 1981, paragraph 1 of schedule 1 (causes and matters assigned to Chancery Division);").
The noble Lord said: Paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 specifies provisions which contain references to a trade mark and provides that each of those references shall include a reference to a service mark. Amendment No. 9 is concerned with printers' imprints. Under certain circumstances, a printer commits an offence if he does not include on matter printed by him his imprint—a statement of his name and his address.
The Printer's Imprint Act 1961 relaxed the requirements of an earlier measure, the Newspaper, Printers and Reading Rooms Repeal Act 1869. Section 1(1)(b) of the 1961 Act provides that nothing in the 1869 Act shall require a printer to include his imprint if the matter printed comprises a picture representing only a geometrical, floral or other design or a registered trade mark or any combination thereof.
As the law stands, the printer would not have that protection if the mark were, instead of a trade mark, a registered service mark. Amendment No. 9 accordingly causes the reference to include such a mark.
Amendment No. 10 is concerned with the distribution of business in the High Court. Paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 of the Supreme Court Act 1981 specifies subjects which are assigned to the Chancery Division. Subparagraph (i) specifies patents, trade marks, registered designs and copyright. Amendment No. 10 would result in matters and causes relating to service marks also being assigned to the Chancery Division. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: I beg to move that the House do now resume. I think that we have gone as far as we can this evening with this Committee stage and we should return to it tomorrow.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
8.13 p.m.
Consideration of amendments on Report resumed.
[Amendment No. 16 not moved.]
Clause 19 [Expenses out of the Fund]:
Lord Denning Lord Denning moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 13, leave out lines 1 to 5.
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I had hoped to move this amendment in Committee but I had unavoidably to be absent. The amendment concerns an important question of justice in legal aid cases. At the moment there is great disparity of justice when one side is legally aided and the other is not.
I can illustrate that point with one or two cases. I should like to take a case where the plaintiff is an unassisted man and the defendant is legally aided. I

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shall give the case of Thews v. Reeves, which is reported at 1982 I Queen's Bench. I shall tell your Lordships what the position was. A small shopkeeper called Mr. Thews built up a good business and agreed to sell it to Mr. Reeves for £15,000. It was to be £5,000 down and £800 monthly payable by instalments. The £5,000 down was paid, but after a little while Mr. Reeves did not pay the instalments. Mr. Thews, unassisted, instructed his own solicitors and sued for the balance of the instalments.
Mr. Reeves, who had no real defence, alleged that Mr. Thews had been guilty of fraudulent misrepresentations about the profits of the business. He obtained legal aid. I suppose that the legal aid people relied on his word. By charging fraud against Mr. Thews, the case was conducted at great length. Mr. Reeves eventually lost. He had to withdraw his defence. Mr. Thews had to fight against a legally aided defendant. I think that he received £5,000 but had to pay his own costs of £8,000. He could not obtain his costs because Mr. Reeves had been legally aided. The judge said:
"Mr. and Mrs. Thews will no doubt ascribe the disastrous consequences of this successful litigation to what in modem jargon might well be described as the 'unacceptable face' of British justice."
As the law stands, when an innocent plaintiff sues a legally aided defendant with his own money and wins, he cannot obtain his costs. That has been criticised time after time, not only in that case but in earlier ones. The Lord Chancellor's Advisory Committee took the same view and, at paragraph 243, said:
"We continue to support broadening the provisions of the Act to permit successful planitiffs to receive costs from the fund."
That relates also to Amendment No. 18, which will be moved by my noble friend Lord Morton of Shuna. The limitation is that the proceedings must be instituted by the legally aided person. The recommendation was supported by all the judges, and by the advisory committee. They recommended that in such circumstances a man who is not legally aided and who wins against a legally aided defendant, who has all the funds of the state to back him, should have his costs paid by the legal aid fund when it loses. That is the case for the plaintiffs.
I now wish to deal with the much more common case when the plaintiff is legally aided and the defendant is not. The case I would quote is the case of Whitehouse v. Jordan. Mrs. Whitehouse was about to have her baby. She went into hospital at Birmingham and unfortunately there was a disaster during her confinement. The surgeon tried to pull out the baby. Unfortunately the brain was damaged in so doing. Mrs. Whitehouse sued the surgeon for negligence. She said that he had pulled the baby too hard and too long. She obtained legal aid to bring the case. There were medical men on both sides. Enormous expense was involved.
The case went to the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords. Mrs. Whitehouse lost, and the House of Lords said that the legal aid fund was to pay the costs because it had lost the case. But they could not make any order in respect of the court of first instance, because of the special provision that you cannot get costs against a legally aided plaintiff unless you can show substantial financial hardship. So the surgeon did not get any costs against the legal aid people in respect of the court of first instance.
Another example of that is where an Irishman called Mr. Kelly sued the British Transport Board. Mr. Kelly had had a cut on his head some years earlier and he afterwards had depression. He managed to persuade some doctors and lawyers that it was due to the negligence of the British Transport people. He carried the case on for, I think, six years but eventually it dropped. The judge said, in effect, that he was an obvious liar. The British Transport Board were involved in £8,000 costs and they said, "We ought to get that from the legal aid people."
Neither of those cases would have been started but for legal aid. They would have died a natural death and would not have been taken. But in neither case were the successful defendants able to recover costs, because of the provision that in a court of first instance you do not get costs against a legally aided plaintiff unless you show severe financial hardship.
The advisory committee considered that the law ought to be altered and liberalised. They said at page 237 of their report:
"The award out of funds in such cases should be a matter of judicial discretion, but the discretion should be made more generous by liberalising the severe financial hardship test of the present situation".
They went on to say:
"The Lord Chancellor's Office's legislative working party recommended that the test should be that the applicant would find it hard to bear his costs unless an order were made. We would regard this phrasing as the minimum legislation appropriate to the circumstances of the case".
So the advisory committee advised liberalising the position so as to enable defendants who successfully defended a case to get their costs.
I am afraid that the English law remains the same, but your Lordships will see that in my first amendment I want to strike out all the words about the unassisted party suffering severe financial hardship. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, in his amendment that it should apply not only to defendants but to plaintiffs.
Then there is this very strange, new, liberalising provision in subsection (4). It is not in English law. It states:
"The provisions … regarding financial hardship may be modified, in their application to persons who are concerned in proceedings only in a fiduciary, representative or official capacity, by regulations made under this section."
I ask: what is a fiduciary, representative or official capacity? In that earlier case, were the West Midlands Health Authority being sued in an official capacity? I should have said that they were. If a chief constable is sued, if the Jockey Club is sued or if a committee is sued, all those people may be able to get their costs, but only by regulations made under this section.
We do not know what those regulations will come to. This provision about a fiduciary, representative or official capacity is entirely vague. I suppose that the trustees of a building or of a hospital would be covered by the word "fiduciary". I suppose that "representative" would cover trade unions. The words "official capacity" would cover a chief constable, a hospital authority or whoever it may be. But those words are very wide. Why should those bodies be in a position different from that of an ordinary company or individual? And it is all dependent on regulations.
I suggest that subsection (4) is much too vague, uncertain and unjust in its application, so I suggest that those first five lines on page 13 should be omitted, as well as subsection (4). It should be left to the discretion of the court, because paragraph (c) remains. That reads:
"in any case, the court is satisfied that it is just and equitable in all the circumstances that the award should be paid out of public funds."
That is what applies in the Court of Appeal and in the House of Lords. It can perfectly well apply to the courts of first instance, and in all these circumstances it enables the courts to do what is just in a particular case and not be hustled out of justice by the various provisions about severe financial hardship and the like. I beg to move.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Ampthill): My Lords, I should remind your Lordships that if Amendment No. 17 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 18.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I strongly support the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning. It is obvious in the legal aid scheme that the legal aid authorities can only assess whether somebody has probable cause on the basis of the written documents provided to them. In certain cases, they may be provided on a false basis. The person may be putting forward a false case and, perhaps, getting somebody to support it, and there is no way that the legal aid authority can assess whether it is a genuine or a made-up case. But if it is a made-up case, the person on the other side of the litigation can suffer very extreme hardship, if he is just beyond the limit of legal aid. Yet as the provisions stand, a person can get no relief at all in a court of first instance unless the proceedings were instituted by the legally assisted person.
Of course, there are many cases where, for example, the non-assisted person is forced to raise the action, perhaps to regain his own property, and then, as in the example cited, the expenses almost outweigh the value of the property recovered. It is a form of blackmail that is available to the assisted person against an unassisted person and I strongly support Amendments Nos. 17 and 19. Amendment No. 19, as I understand it, really follows No. 17, because if paragraph (b) were removed there would be no purpose in having subsection (4).
If I may, with your Lordships' permission, speak to my Amendment No. 18, that is perhaps rather less drastic than the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning. It is merely to allow the court to award expenses if the unassisted party, whether pursuer or defender, will suffer severe financial hardship, and I see no reason why there should be a restriction to cases started by the assisted person. Therefore, I strongly support the amendment.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, this amendment extends a point which I think we discussed as a result of an amendment by the noble Lord opposite in Committee. I have considered what was said at that time and I accept that difficult cases will always arise, where one party to proceedings is
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legally assisted and the other is not. But I regret to say that I must adhere to my original point that, given the continuing need to make the best possible use of the resources available for legal aid, Clause 19(3)(b), which I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, accepted restates the law as it exists both in England and Wales and in Scotland, makes a proper distinction in allowing the possibility of a successful non-assisted defender obtaining his expenses from the fund—that is to say, one who has been brought into court by a plaintiff in England or a pursuer in Scotland—but not a non-assisted pursuer who, as I indicated in an earlier debate today, is aware that his opponent is legally assisted. He is made aware of that fact.
8.30 p.m.
It is the case, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, pointed out, that the restriction is in any event applied only to the expenses of first instance proceedings and not the expenses of any subsequent appeal. There is a clear logical reason for that because in relation to an appeal the assisted person has had to return to the legal aid authorities and they have been persuaded at that stage in the light of a decision of the court to support the legally assisted person. For that reason, there having been as it were a second bite, it is appropriate that in those circumstances where the individual has been legally assisted the appeal court should have the power to award defences in the case where the appeal has been successful against the legally assisted person, but only in relation to the appeal process.
I entirely accept that where the board therefore has supported a pursuer whose case is repelled by the court and the defence has caused severe financial hardship to the defender the court should in such cases have the power to order that the successful party's expenses be met out of the fund. For that reason I cannot accept the limited amendment which the noble Lord opposite has down in his name. But I accept that the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, goes much further. It would abolish altogether the provisions that an unassisted person's expenses would be met only if he would otherwise suffer severe financial hardship. It would really mean that in all cases where he was successful he should be entitled to an award from the legal aid fund.
I make clear my sympathy with the position of many unassisted parties. It is only fair to say that this can arise even without the interposition of legal aid. But again I have to say that I do not think that the resources of the legal aid fund should be available in all cases, even where there is no real financial need.
For those reasons I regret to say that upon consideration of the matters that were discussed in Committee and being aware too of the amendments which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, put down at that time I do not feel able to accept any of these amendments which would in any event put Scotland slightly out of line—more than slightly out of line—with the law South of the Border. I take the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, in an earlier debate today that if a fundamental change of this kind in relation to the matters of first charges were to be made, it ought to be done over both jurisdictions

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and not separately. It seems to me that that argument is equally good with regard to the present one. Accordingly, I cannot advise the House to accept this amendment and those consequential to it.
Perhaps I should say that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, is absolutely correct in his speculation as to the meaning of subsection (4), in particular the words, "fiduciary, representative or official capacity". These words are not new. They appear in existing legislation in relation to both England and Scotland, more particularly in Section 15 of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1967.
Lord Denning: My Lords, I am of course disappointed with the answer. We still have injustice being carried on in these cases. I was not referring to all cases. I was saying, let the discretion be in the judge—the same as in the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords. In all these cases let the discretion be in the judge whether the legal aid fund ought to pay the costs. They are the cause of all the litigation. They put the other side to all the costs and then they fail. Ought they not to pay the costs like any other individual? That is the simple point of justice. That is just and equitable. That is the first point. It has been stressed by judges in England, by the advisory committee and the like. That is in regard to England. I protested against it in England without any help from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. They really want to save the cost to the legal aid fund: legal aid is becoming so expensive; so let us not put any more on it. In other words, money is going to count before justice.
This clause, whereby a person in a "fiduciary, represenative or official capacity", may be able to get his costs is new. That covers a multitude of people, but we do not know what they would be. So in Scotland there is this wide liberalising measure. I should like to have it in England. Mark you, I would extend the words "fiduciary, representative or official capacity" to cover pretty well everyone—all the health authorities and the like. With a little ingenuity we could make it a very good clause in England, but we do not have it there. My only plea is that we ought to know precisely what it means, and we do not.
But I see that I am struggling alone with no support and so I will not divide. I have just made my protest in the interests of justice. I shall not go further with the amendment.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, if the noble and learned Lord will allow me, I shall give him some support.
Lord Denning: My Lords, I have even greater support here. Let us hear what the Lord Justice Clerk would say.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, what is the reasoning behind the clause as it now stands whereby when a person gets legal aid and institutes proceedings the successful defender will be entitled to get money from the legal aid fund in respect of his expenses? The reasoning surely is this. If the legal aid organisation has been involved in financing the case by the pursuer and that case fails, in equity the successful defender should be entitled to payment out of the legal aid fund.
Lord Denning: That is right, my Lords.
Lord Wheatley: But, my Lords, should not exactly the same argument apply to the reverse situation where the unassisted person raises the action but the defender gets legal aid and pursues the action unsuccessfully in a court of first instance? He has been able to do that only because legal aid has been supplied to him. Surely if it is equitable in the first case, it should be equitable in the second case. If the expense has been incurred to the successful party through the intervention of the legal aid fund, in equity the successful party should be entitled to be considered for expenses against the legal aid fund. I say "considered" deliberately because, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, has pointed out, the underlying principle is the one in operation at the present time in Scotland where the proceedings as framed in the clause take place and the court has to decide in all the circumstances of the case whether it is equitable that expenses should be given to the successful defender and the extent to which these expenses should be given. This is a case where equity should rule over the possibility of being faced with some extra expense. The whole principle of legal aid will surely be made a nonsense of if one is to have two standards of equity.
Lord Denning: My Lords, perhaps I may add a few words with the leave of the House. As my noble and learned friend has just said, the question is: what is equitable? The subsection, without the other wording, would say that:
"The court is satisfied that it is just and equitable in all the circumstances that the award should be paid out of public funds".
What could be simpler and better than that? That is how I would leave it and would have it always left. However, as I have said, having regard to the forces that the noble and learned Lord has in reserve, it is probably not worth while having a Division. Therefore, I will not proceed any further and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 not moved.]
Clause 21 [Scope and nature of criminal legal aid]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 20:
Page 14, line 30, leave out subsection (2).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is to strike out Clause 21(2) of the Bill, which provides that:
"The Secretary of State may, by regulations … prescribe by reference to such considerations as appear to him to be appropriate any class or stage of proceedings in connection with which criminal legal aid shall or, as the case may be, shall not be available".
That subsection of the Bill provides at length for criminal legal aid being available subject to financial and other considerations.
It is not at all clear why the Secretary of State should have the power to make regulations to cut out from the provision of legal aid any class or stage of proceedings. Neither is it clear what is meant by a class of proceedings. Is that done to cut out road traffic cases, or cases in a certain level of court, or what? Does it mean that one may obtain legal aid up until the trial but not for the trial, or not until the trial but for the

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trial? If so, why? What is the point of that regulation? It appears to be another illustration of the way in which the Bill is framed—to make the board totally the pawn of the Secretary of State, required to do exactly what he directs it to do as to making legal aid available.
As far as I can see from that clause, the Secretary of State could cut out all legal aid. I commend the amendment to the House, unless there is some satisfactory explanation that we did not have at Committee stage from the Government side. I beg to move.
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I remind the House that, if this amendment is agreed to, I shall be unable to call Amendment No. 21.
8.45 p.m.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, on the supposition that my noble and learned friend will not accept the amendment that the noble Earl, Lord Perth, and I have down following this amendment, I should like to support what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Morton.
This Bill is chock-full of regulations. We can do very little about that except see whether the regulations, in the power that they take from Parliament, are in excess of requirements. Are these regulations really in excess of requirements? We must remember that we are using powers here that amount to a decree. I say that because it is extremely difficult to do very much about draft regulations.
In the first place, a statutory instrument is very difficult to understand. If one wants to understand a draft instrument then one has to go to the Library and read the Act of Parliament to discover what the draft means. Secondly, it tends to give rise to some constitutional issue. The other place passes it, and if we do not pass it there is a frightful row. That is quite different from amendments that we put into a Bill, which we can make when we want to. As far as a draft regulation is concerned, it presents great difficulties. Sometimes I think this is a matter that the Procedure Committee should examine, to see whether we could not deal with draft regulations a little more effectively.
I agree with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Morton. What precisely do the Government have in mind? I do not know what the word "class" means in this context. Does it mean that certain classes of case should be omitted altogether? The word "class" usually applies to a category of people. It may be women, men, children, persistent offenders—all kinds of people. It could even mean the young unemployed. It might mean that the Government were taking power to exclude from legal aid unemployed persons. That would be within their power. I am sure that they do not intend that, but the provision could be used in that way. Do the Government want to take a power that is greatly in excess of what they really need?
The noble Lord has already asked what actions are to be excluded. Clause 22(1) states:
"Subject to regulations made under section 21(2) of this Act".
That means that any of the items shown in (a), (b), (c) or (d) of that subsection could be excluded under the
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power that the Secretary of State has in Clause 21(2). I ask the question: do the Government want that power? Is it necessary to have it? I do not believe that we should let the Government have powers that they do not want; it is important that their power should be kept as low as possible. If the Government say that they want that power, then let them have it—but they must make the case as to why such a power is necessary for the proper functioning of the Bill.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, I too have difficulty in understanding what is meant by the phrase in subsection (2):
"any class or stage of proceedings".
That is vague, uncertain and indeterminate. As far as class is concerned, that could extend—could it not?—to limiting legal aid to summary commital proceedings as a whole or proceedings in the district court—about which I know something because, as Lord Justice Clerk, I presided over the central advisory committee of the justices of the peace and our main concern was the working of district courts.
According to subsection (2) of this clause, all work in district courts could be excluded from legal aid. If that is to be done—and it would be rather a draconian measure—then it should be done in primary legislation and not by means of regulations.
I have one further point to make. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, pointed out that under these provisions, the various items to which Clause 22 refers could be excluded simply by the passing of a regulation, subject to such considerations as appear to the Secretary of State "to be appropriate". So, at the whim of the Secretary of State, some of the provisions could be wiped out.
Finally, I ask the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate whether the provisions of Clause 23 are in any way qualified by the provisions of Clause 21(2).
The Earl of Perth: My Lords, I understand that, if this amendment is accepted, then the amendment that stands in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and myself will not be taken. I want to speak on Amendment No. 20 therefore, for the reason that I am very unhappy about it, whatever may be its merits or demerits.
I say that because the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, moved precisely the same amendment in precisely the same terms at Committee stage. That is an unusual thing to happen. I looked in the rule book and, sure enough, it is unusual—particularly when an amendment has been considered in Committee, put to a vote, and defeated. I do not mind about that. I was myself supporting the noble Lord when he was defeated, but I think we have to be extremely careful in this House not to bring up on Report in precisely the same terms an amendment which has been considered and voted upon in Committee. I say this with some hesitation, but it is important that we do not get involved in covering the same ground in Committee and on Report; otherwise, there will be no end to our debates. Therefore, I oppose the amendment for a reason quite different from anything else. It is because I do not think it is proper procedure to consider the amendment a second time.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, as the noble Earl, Lord Perth, has just reminded us, we have already had an exhaustive discussion of the purpose of this clause in Committee. I simply remind noble Lords of the principal arguments which I have already put forward in favour of the present formulation of the provision. It is not a new provision. Indeed, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, reminded us of that in Committee. It is a repetition, with one slight modification, of a power which has been available to Secretaries of State since 1949 in connection with civil legal aid and for criminal proceedings since criminal legal aid was introduced in 1964. Your Lordships have had, therefore, experience of the way in which Secretaries of State have sought to use such powers, and it has never been in the sweeping manner contemplated this evening. I can assure your Lordships that that will continue to be the case.
One of the factors which we have had to take account of in drafting this Bill is the introduction of assistance by way of representation. That is provided for in an earlier part of the Bill—in Part II under the heading: "Advice and Assistance"—which continues from Clause 6 onwards. Within that, of course, there is provision for representation in certain circumstances in criminal proceedings. Therefore, some mechanism has had to be devised to make clear in which circumstances a person shall be entitled to assistance by way of representation and in which circumstances he will be entitled to criminal legal aid. The mechanism that has been chosen is that of regulations under Clause 21(2), which are coupled with regulations under Clause 9, which deal with assistance by way of representation. As your Lordships will see, in Clause 9(2) the regulations as far as ABWOR are concerned may,
"describe the proceedings (or stages of proceedings) in relation to which this Part of this Act shall so apply",
as well as,
"by reference … to the issues involved, to the capacity",
and in any other way.
This choice, already made in the Legal Aid Act 1979, provided for assistance by way of representation, but it has not, in fact, since that date been implemented. That Act inserted a new subsection (6B) in Section 1 of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1967 which allowed the Secretary of State to prescribe by regulation criteria which determined when it would be more appropriate for a person to receive assistance by way of representation rather than legal aid. However, while regulations under Section 1 (6B) were subject to negative resolution only, these regulations under Clause 21(2) are subject to affirmative resolution. Previously the position was further clarified by the former subsection (3) of this clause, but that, of course, was deleted in Committee.
I can assure your Lordships that there is nothing sinister about the power under Clause 21(2). It simply permits—and I think with my explanation it gives content to the opening words of Clause 22—the stage up to which one receives ABWOR (that is, under advice and assistance) to be dealt with by earlier regulations, and the regulations under this part, which deal only with criminal legal aid, will provide for the point from which criminal legal aid can be made available.
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I think the noble Lord opposite suggested that this power might be used to remove criminal legal aid altogether. Indeed, I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, suggested that it could perhaps cut out proceedings in the district courts. But that is not how I read it, and certainly it is not the intention of subsection (2), which deals only with "any class or stage of proceedings". It does not, of course, deal with the criminal proceedings themselves, which are dealt with quite clearly under subsection (1):
"This Part of this Act applies to legal aid in connection with—
(a) criminal proceedings before any of the following—".
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, asked about the meaning of the word "class". I would simply again explain that what is provided for in this subsection is that the Secretary of State may,
"prescribe by reference to such considerations as appear to him to be appropriate any class or stage of proceedings",
that is, any class of proceedings. That could refer to a group of offences or a group of proceedings but not, of course, to a group of people. Therefore, I accept that it can refer to a particular class of proceedings. That is precisely the kind of power which has always been available under existing legislation.
I trust that with the explanation that this part is essential to the Bill, that it ties together ABWOR and criminal legal aid, the noble Lord opposite will feel able not to proceed with the amendment. As I said, this is a matter which we have discussed in some detail in Committee, and I am really repeating arguments which I attempted to put before the Committee. Therefore, I cannot invite noble Lords to accept the amendment.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, with the permission of the House I ask one question. Does the power in subsection (2) not permit, as it stands, the exclusion of solemn procedure from legal aid altogether? Is that not technically within the power of the statute as it stands? That is what my noble and learned friend is at present justifying, and I find it very hard to accept.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: No, my Lords, I do not think I was trying to justify that. If that was the impression I gave, I am happy to correct it. I am not suggesting that the power under subsection (2) can be to exclude criminal proceedings before any court. That is what is set out in subsection (1). I am simply saying that it is a power to prescribe any class of proceedings or stage of proceedings; that is, in relation to proceedings themselves, groups of offences or proceedings.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, if the intention of this clause is that the Secretary of State may define that legal asssistance by way of representation should be available instead of criminal legal aid in certain classes or stages, it might have been more clear if that had been the provision.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I did not say that. I was simply saying that that power refers to criminal legal aid. The power relating to ABWOR is to be found in an earlier part of the Bill. This provides the way in which the watershed is defined in relation to criminal legal aid.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, all I am trying to say, and no doubt am not saying very effectively, is that it could have been put in a better way. As stated, the Bill gives power to cut out criminal aid without replacing it with assistance by way of representation. However, in the circumstances, I shall not press the amendment to a Division.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9 p.m.
The Earl of Selkirk The Earl of Selkirk moved Amendment No. 21:
Page 14, line 30, after ("may") insert ("after consultation with the Board").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this amendment asks that the Secretary of State should at least consult with the board before using what all of us, I believe, consider to be extraordinary powers under subsection (2). They are powers that my noble and learned friend has not, I believe, justified, if I may say so with the greatest respect. I do not believe that he has said that these powers are limited.
I hope that the powers will be used wisely, munificently, kindly and thoughtfully. But that does not alter the fact that they are grossly in excess of any conceivable purpose for which they could be used. I am suggesting that there should at least be consultation with the board before they are used. This is a modest request. The clause has caused great anxiety, and came extremely close to defeat at an earlier stage in this House. Without more argument, I beg to move the amendment.
The Earl of Perth: My Lords, my name is also attached to this amendment, moved by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. I am no lawyer. I have little, if any, legal knowledge. All the same, it is sometimes good for an outsider, having listened to what was said at Committee stage, to make a point. I recall very well the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, saying in Committee, "What is the point of setting up a legal aid board if its work can be totally negated by the Secretary of State who has power to alter by regulation?" It is surely not good enough that this situation should exist. As all your Lordships know, when we refer to the Secretary of State it is not the Secretary of State at all, but his advisers, the civil servants. I have nothing against civil servants. Far from it: they are admirable and good in many respects.
However, in this case it is not the Secretary of State. He is purposely setting up an advisory board. Yet he says that he can override it. If I was asked to serve on this advisory board and then saw this part of the Bill, I believe that I would decline. What would be the good, having decided that I would spend a lot of time and take a lot of trouble, as a member of the board, in thinking about things and giving advice on legal aid, if the Secretary of State could then, by regulation, ignore everything I had done?
I beg the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron, to think again. There must be provision for the board to be consulted. I am not saying that the advice has to be taken. But in cases like these it is a necessary part of the whole set-up we are considering that the members of the board should have a real power and should not work on something only to find that it has been to no avail. I hope that the amendment that we have put
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forward will be considered most carefully by the noble and learned Lord before Third Reading.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, I should like briefly to refer to the two speeches already made. Subsection (2) really gives a draconian power, to use an old-fashioned but valid adjective in the circumstances, to the Secretary of State. What is he entitled to do? By regulation, on his own judgment and without reference to anyone, he can:
"prescribe by reference to such considerations as appear to him to be appropriate"
—a purely subjective judgment that does not become examinable in any court—
"any class or stage of proceedings in connection with which criminal legal aid shall or, as the case may be, shall not be available".
He can ride a coach and four through the whole of the Act when it becomes law. This is an abuse of the regulatory provisions for which Acts of Parliament provide.
The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, pronounced in powerful terms against the whole structure of the Bill. We have here a classic example of what should not have been done. The amendment is a modest attempt to put some kind of restraint on the powers of the Secretary of State. It suggests that he should act in this potentially oppressive way only after consultation with the board.
I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will think again. This part of the Bill pushes things much too far. It is regrettable that it comes before the House at this time and in these conditions, when we cannot test the matter, for it really is an outrage. I shall not do that, for reasons that are in accord with constitutional practice. It would be sad to see the House counted out. However, I implore the noble and learned Lord to look again at this because it is outrageous as it stands.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, I add my voice in support of what has been said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, for one reason, perhaps, most of all. Either by design or accident the impression has been given under the Bill that the Secretary of State is getting everything in connection with legal aid into his own maw. He will be the person who controls the legal aid system from alpha to omega. That impression could have been modified to a certain extent if some of the proposed amendments put forward today had been accepted. This is a last-minute effort whereby, perhaps in his own interest and the interest of the Government, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate might well be advised to think again about this matter, and put in this very modest qualification if for no other reason than giving the impression that the Secretary of State is prepared to devolve to other people some of the responsibility for the operation of this Act.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I hope that the House will not think that I have been attempting to give any impression that on this side we consider that what is being set up will not be other than a fully independent board. I make that quite plain. I did not intend to give that impression in what I have said. I do not think that anything I have said has given that impression.

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However, I should say this. Obviously I have heard what my noble friend Lord Selkirk and the noble Earl, Lord Perth, have said. I should like to take this matter away and bring it to the attention of colleagues. It is only right to say that today we have added a specific power to the board to give advice to the Secretary of State. Obviously this advice can include advice on the content of regulations. Indeed, I can give an undertaking here and now that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will consult the board on all relevant regulations.
Having heard what has been said, I am happy to reconsider this matter. I think it is only fair to say that there may be certain regulations which do not directly affect the board and upon which it may be unnecessary to consult them. I can give no undertaking that at the end of the day anything will appear necessarily on the face of the Bill. However, I am very happy to bring the comments—and I can understand the force with which they were stated—to my colleagues' attention and to see whether something can be stated in the Bill. On that basis, perhaps my noble friend Lord Selkirk and the noble Earl, Lord Perth, may feel able not to press this further tonight.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I am grateful for what my noble and learned friend has said so far. I should like to ask him this question. My noble friend said that the Secretary of State would consult the board on all regulations which affect them. Does he mean that? Why does he not put that in the Bill? I have heard this for years. Why does my noble friend say these things when he cannot speak for more than one Secretary of State? We are passing a law. My noble and learned friend is not giving his opinion, which I respect enormously, as I respect the Secretary of State. But this is the law of the land. It gives the Secretary of State power.
I am afraid that I do not accept entirely what my noble friend says with regard to any class of procedure. Perhaps all criminal appeals could be abolished. That is a class of procedure, as I understand it. He is giving power for a Secretary of State in future to do that without consultation with anybody. I believe that it would help many of us if my noble friend could not only accept this amendment as it stands but put it more widely with regard to regulations or put in the Bill what he himself said—that the board will be consulted on all regulations which affect them. Those words would give immense relief to a great many of us.
However, I accept what my noble and learned friend has said. I ask him to think very hard about the points that have been made. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 22:
Page 15, line 6, at end insert—
("( ) The grant of legal aid under the provisions of section 23 of this Act shall without prejudice to the provisions of this subsection extend to representation at all diets in the case at first instance and for any appeal arising therefrom under the provisions of section 76A and section 105(5) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 and for any appeal by way of Bill of Suspension against the granting of any incidental warrant; and the grant of criminal legal aid under the provisions of section 24 of this Act shall without prejudice to this subsection extend to representation at all diets in the case at first instance and for any
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appeal arising therefrom under the provision of sections 331 A(3) and section 334(2A) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 and for any appeal by way of Bill of Suspensions against the granting of any incidental warrant.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I withdrew this amendment at the Committee stage because the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate was going to look at the position. I have therefore re-enrolled it to see what the position now is. The position under the existing provision is that incidental applications, or incidental appeals, require a separate legal aid application. It seems unnecessary that there should be two applications. That is what this amendment is designed to avoid. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, as the noble Lord opposite has reminded the House, I agreed to look at this matter. There was no difference in policy between the noble Lord and myself on this point. As promised, the wording of these clauses, Clauses 22 to 24, has been reviewed to ensure that it achieves the result that we both desire. I am now advised that it does and, in particular, that appeals on preliminary points in summary proceedings which, by virtue of the act of adjournal which governs procedure in these matters, can only be pursued after a plea of guilty or not guilty has been tendered, are appropriately covered.
I would simply add that were there to be any changes in criminal procedure, or if for any reason, contrary to the advice I have been given, any doubt arose over whether such appeals on preliminary points were covered by provisions for giving legal aid in criminal proceedings, then regulations under Clause 36(2)(c) could be used to make it clear that such appeals were in fact part of proceedings for which criminal legal aid could be granted.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, in the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 22 [Automatic availability of criminal legal aid]:
Lord Morton of Shunahad given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 23:
Page 15, line 35, at end insert ("and in connection with any appeal to the High Court of Justiciary under the provisions of section 334(2A) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is covered by what has already been said and I therefore do not propose to move it.
[Amendment No. 23 not moved.]
Clause 23 [Power of the court to grant legal aid]:
[Amendment No. 24 not moved.]
9.15 p.m.
The Earl of Selkirk The Earl of Selkirk moved Amendment No. 25:
Page 15, line 41, after ("detention") insert ("in the course of the last five years").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I do not find Clause 23 easy to understand. Subsection (1) says:
"Criminal legal aid shall be available on an application made to the court",

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and paragraph (b) says:
"where a person who has not previously been sentenced to imprisonment or detention has been convicted in summary proceedings, and the court is considering"
whether or not to send him to prison under Section 396(2) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act. I understand that that provision almost exclusively refers to non-payment of fines. It may be that it has a wider context which I have not entirely understood. However, as I read it, it applies simply to someone who has not paid a fine. In other words, it applies to someone who has been convicted and fined and who then comes before the court again because he has not paid his fine, and the court considers whether or not it is appropriate to send him to prison for non-payment of the fine. I do not know whether I have understood it correctly, but it is not very clear.
When we talk about previous sentences or detention we may be talking about a children's court. It may be that the person in question has been in detention or dealt with in a way which is applicable only to young people. It may be that the events in question take place 20 or 30 years later. However, should that person necessarily be excluded from receiving legal aid? In my view he should not be so excluded.
As I understand it, a person will not receive legal aid if at any time he has either been in prison or detained. It can relate back to matters which took place when he was 15 or less. I am suggesting that this provision should not go back over such a long period as that, but should be restricted to someone who has been in prison or detained in the course of the last five years. That seems to me to be reasonable. If a man has not been to prison or detained for, say, 20 years, it is quite unfair that on that account he should be excluded from receiving legal aid.
I may not have understood the clause, but I do not think that it is clearly drawn. In my view it would be unfair and improper for someone to have held against him the fact that he had been in prison when he was under the age of, say, 18 or perhaps had been in Borstal. Therefore it would be fair to limit the period as regards which detention would be used as a ground for exclusion from receiving legal aid. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, the purpose of this provision is to continue one which was inserted in the existing Act of 1967 by the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980. It gives special treatment to someone who is facing prison or detention for the first time. My noble friend is correct in saying that one of the circumstances may be when the person has failed to pay a fine, when no time for payment is allowed and the court then considers a sentence of imprisonment or detention. It also applies to the ordinary case where the court is considering such a sentence. It is generally accepted that such a person is in a particularly serious situation and that he should have legal assistance if he wishes to put forward any arguments for an alternative sentence. It is for that reason that the provision was first introduced in the 1980 Act and was limited to the case when someone was facing imprisonment for the first time.
Therefore, these provisions are really consequential upon that earlier provision. I suggest, however, that
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the same arguments do not necessarily apply when someone is facing a custodial sentence for the second, third or whatever time it may be.
My noble friend has suggested that someone who has not been sentenced, as his amendment says, for five years may have some claim for consideration on the grounds that he has not for some time committed an offence leading to imprisonment. I have to say that the present amendment would cover people who had been sentenced to five years in gaol on indictment, had just come out, and immediately reoffended. In other words, the amendment sets out the gap since the last conviction, not the period during which a person has kept out of trouble.
For those two reasons therefore I do not feel able to accept this amendment, but I trust that I have explained the purpose behind the provision and what it is intended to deal with. It is nothing new. It is something which is already in existing legislation. It is a special power given to the court in summary proceedings; otherwise, of course, applications are dealt with by either advice and assistance for certain parts of the proceedings or criminal legal aid.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, I cannot let this occasion pass without taking advantage of the opportunity of rising to support the Lord Advocate. Surely one of the common situations which arises is when a person has not previously been sentenced to imprisonment or detention. The court cannot proceed to sentence a prisoner forthwith. The case has to be continued to allow various reports to be obtained from the appropriate quarters, such as social inquiry reports, detention centre reports, and things of that nature.
In that situation when a case is continued for the reception of these reports manifestly there is going to be some argument as to the proper form of disposal of the case in the light of the reports. In that situation it is obviously desirable that professional assistance should be available to the accused before the first step of sending him to prison is taken. For that reason this particular subsection, as it stands, is fully justified.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I must admit that I am not overwhelmed by the force of the noble and learned Lord's argument here. What he is saying is that a person who has been to prison at any time in his life is not entitled in these circumstances to legal aid, except, as I read it, in exceptional circumstances. It is rather hard, and it is wrong, to say 20 years later to a man who may have recovered his character from when he was quite a young man in Borstal, or in any form of detention "Oh, but you were in Borstal, my dear chap. You can't have legal aid". I say that this is unfair.
The noble and learned Lord used an unfortunate expression. He said, "consequential on the previous Act". No Act is consequential on the previous Act. We are reforming the Act now, and we should not be bound by the words a previous Act has put forward. I shall not press this amendment. It is unfortunate that the noble and learned Lord cannot look at it from a wider point of view, but I leave it at that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 26:
Page 16, line 4, at end insert ("or
("( ) where the court is satisfied that having regard to the interests of witnesses, of the court, of the accused or for any other reason it is appropriate that the accused person should be represented").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to give the court a power in certain cases at least to offer legal aid to the accused. Of course I realise that the accused, if he insists on doing so, can always go through any form of proceedings unrepresented. But there are cases where the accused has put his head in the sand and never thought to get legal advice, or where he is willing to accept advice from the sheriff to accept legal advice, especially where, for example, there are child witnesses and the court is anxious that the accused should not cross-examine them.
There are many cases where it may seem appropriate to the court that there should be legal aid, and this amendment is just to give a power to the court in that type of case to award it if the accused asks for it. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I think it right to remind your Lordships, as I stated when this matter was debated in Committee, that we consulted the sheriffs, among others, about the desirability of including such reserve power and they made quite clear that they would not welcome it.
Perhaps I may take two situations. First, there is the situation where a person has already applied for but has been refused criminal legal aid. There is no reason why such a person, if he considers that during the course of a trial something has come up which makes it possible for him to consider a further application for legal aid, should not be entitled to ask for an adjournment under our summary criminal procedure. I have no doubt, if it were for the purpose of asking for legal aid in the new situation that has arisen, that that is something which the court would take account of in deciding whether to grant or refuse that. In the case where he has not already sought legal aid, again, he is entitled to put that consideration before the court.
I deal with summary cases because I think this was, as the noble Lord opposite indicated in Committee, the area where there was concern. I should remind your Lordships that the Government have now agreed to specify factors concerning interests of justice on the face of the Bill. At this stage I cannot give details of those factors, but they may cover, as in the present non-statutory guidelines, cases where the accused cannot follow the proceedings or where legal representation is desirable in the interests of someone other than the accused. That would cover the kinds of examples which the noble Lord has in mind and which he stated previously in Committee in the case of the cross-examination of children as witnesses. The board would take such considerations into account in any event upon an application made to it. This was a matter upon which we consulted. There will already be a provision within the Bill which will allow the accused making use of criminal procedure to seek an adjournment to return to place an application before the board. In those circumstances I cannot accept the amendment, though I fully understand the purpose for which it is put forward.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, in those circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 27 not moved.]
Clause 24 [Legal aid in summary proceedings]:
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 28:
Page 16, line 21, leave out ("to section 21(3) of this Act").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the Amendment to Clause 24 is consequential on the deletion of Clause 21(3) in Committee. I should perhaps say that this deletion causes some difficulty to us in that there is no longer any provision on the face of the Bill making clear which summary criminal proceedings for persons not in custody will be covered by criminal legal aid and which by assistance by way of representation. It may be practicable to achieve the desired changes through regulations under Clause 21(2), but it is fair to say that the House has previously expressed the view that the scope of legal aid should be made clear on the face of the Bill whenever possible. However, we shall clearly need to take time to reconsider the position in the light of your Lordships' views, and any amendment which we conclude may be desirable will require to be made in another place. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 29 not moved.]
9.30 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 30:
Page 16, line 40, at end insert—
("( ) The Board shall provide a method of appeal against the refusal by the Board of Criminal Legal Aid under this section.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an amendment to provide that there should be a method of appeal against the refusal by the board of criminal legal aid. On the position as regards appeals against refusal of civil legal aid or legal advice and assistance, I understand that I may have overstated the position of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate earlier today. If so, I apologise.
The position about criminal legal aid in my submission is that it is absolutely essential, if there is the new system whereby somehow the board is going to be dealing with about 20,000 a year of criminal legal aid applications, that there should be some method of review or appeal available for people who are dissatisfied with the decision. I understand that there has been recent consultation between the Home and Health Department and the Central Legal Aid Committee and that this matter came up.
I am informed that the Home and Health Department view was that no right of appeal against refusal of criminal legal aid was necessary because civil legal aid would be available for judicial review of a refusal of criminal legal aid. That seems to me to be a quite extraordinary proceeding because it would be far more costly and absolutely absurd that the civil courts should be confused by having a series of applications for judicial review against refusal of criminal legal aid, when it would take far longer than to have some fairly

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simple procedure whereby another committee of the board could review decisions where the legal aid had been refused.
It would seem to be all the more necessary that there should be some method of review or appeal in the new procedure as opposed to the old one where the sheriffs and the district judges were granting or refusing legal aid. At least there one knew who was doing it. One of the reasons for the change is that there were inconsistencies between the approaches of different sheriffs. Now there is nothing to cover the possibility of inconsistencies between different persons because it is obviously quite impossible that the one person will decide all the applications for criminal legal aid. The mere fact that a standard is laid down and that factors are laid down in the Act does not mean that there will not be inconsistencies. In my submission, it is absolutely essential that there should be some method of review of a refusal of criminal legal aid. I beg to move.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, I am not sure whether or not I am right. In the procedure for England and Wales there is a specific provision for appeal against refusal of criminal legal aid. I think that it is expressly provided for. I cannot lay hands on the relevant section but I do not think I am wrong. Why should not those in Scotland have the benefit of what the good people of England and Wales can enjoy?
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, when the noble learned Lord the Lord Advocate is considering this question as to whether or not there should be some form of appeal, since we are now dealing with summary causes will he bear in mind the point that I made at an earlier stage in the proceedings that, if the applicant is on bail at the time, then he has to be brought to trial within 40 days under our procedure? Therefore, the need for a speedy form of appeal becomes paramount.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, before dealing with the particular arguments which have been presented by noble Lords, may I thank the noble Lord opposite for his point that he may have misrepresented the understanding between himself and myself as regards his amendment, which was directed towards providing for a method of appeal in relation to advice and assistance. I think I would wish just to make it clear that I promised to consult colleagues about the views expressed by the noble Lord. I have done so, and they are considering the situation in the light of the Committee's views. I can give no further commitment on the matter other than that.
I should like to say that the noble Lord spoke of certain discussions having taken place involving officials of the Scottish Home and Health Department and another body. If that was the understanding of one party, it was certainly not the intention that that should have been said or have been understood in relation to criminal legal aid. I can say no more than that.
May I just come to the arguments which in a sense I have already presented in more detail in Committee? There is in Scotland no right of appeal or review in criminal cases at present and indeed, so far as solemn
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procedure is concerned, the Bill makes no change whatsoever in the present position for the consideration of applications. That will be done by the courts on the basis of undue financial hardship criteria.
So far as summary cases are concerned, these will be dealt with by the board for criminal legal aid. I hasten to say that the Government have every confidence in the ability of the board properly to carry out its functions in this regard. The Government are convinced that by setting up a central body to deal with these applications, first, a much greater degree of consistency in their treatment will be brought about and therefore the case for the right of appeal or review is weakened. Secondly, the bodies we consulted made it very clear that the new criminal legal aid system should not lead to delays in the conduct of court business. That point was reinforced by what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, has already said.
It has been represented to us, and I fully accept it, that any delay engendered by the new system would be extremely undesirable, particularly in the light of recent successful efforts to reduce delays in criminal cases and, more particularly, in the kind of case to which the noble and learned Lord referred—the summary case where the accused is remanded in custody and there is a time limit of 40 days. The noble and learned Lord reminded us of that.
I share that sense of priorities and it is against that background that I hold to the view which I have already expressed, that the establishment of an appeals system in criminal causes would do more harm than good by causing delay. This would have to be a system in which there was a proper review. Time would have to be given for the applicant to prepare and state reasons challenging the original decision and bringing forward any fresh evidence. What we are going to have is a board which will be able to give guidance to those who will reach a view on applications. In these circumstances, I regret to say that I cannot accept this amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I regret that I misled the House in saying that there were about 20,000 applications in 1983. There were 62,156 applications for summary criminal legal aid, of which 55,000 were granted. That would leave about 7,000 not granted, of which only some would go to an appeal.
As I pointed out in Committee, the legal aid authorities have applied to the department regarding a method of appealing so that any appeal would be dealt with within a very short time—within a week. They have not been—
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, will the noble Lord permit me just to put a point to him? He referred to the legal aid authorities. The only scheme which I have heard of is one to which the noble Lord referred in Committee. I wonder whether that is the scheme to which he is referring, because if so, that was an outline scheme which was submitted on a personal basis and did not represent any official view whatsoever.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I am sorry; it was outlined by the Secretary of the legal aid committees. It has not apparently been considered at all by the

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Home and Health Department. If appeals can be dealt with within a week, there is no reason to refuse any right of an appeal. If in England it is appropriate that there should be a right of appeal against refusal of legal aid in criminal matters, there is no reason why there should not be the right in Scotland.
I shall withdraw the amendment now because it would not be an appropriate time to seek the opinion of the House, but I may come back to it at a later stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 25 [Legal aid in appeals]:
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 31:
Page 17, line 24, after ("with") insert ("(a)").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with permission I shall speak to this amendment and to another amendment standing in my name as well as one in the name of the noble Lord opposite. When the noble Lord moved his new clause in Committee I undertook to consider his remarks and if possible bring forward a clarifying amendment at a later stage. I now move this amendment in order to make clear, for the avoidance of doubt, the references by the Secretary of State to the High Court covered by the provisions of Clause 25. I am referring to Amendments Nos. 31 and 33.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 32:
Page 17, line 26, after ("otherwise") insert ("and to all appeals by way of Bill of Suspension or Advocation.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am not quite certain about the position here. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate can indicate whether this is an amendment that he accepts or whether it is covered by the assurance he has already given. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: It is covered.
Lord Morton of Shuna: I understand that what I have in mind is already covered. In that circumstance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 33:
Page 17, line 26, at end insert ("; or
(b) a reference by the Secretary of State under section 263 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975.").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Morton of Shunahad given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 34:
After Clause 25, insert the following new clause:
("Legal Aid in High Court.
.—(1) Where the Secretary of State has exercised his powers under section 263 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 to refer the case of a person to the High Court of Justiciary, such a person shall be entitled to criminal legal aid in terms of this Act.
(2) Such a person as is mentioned in subsection (1) above who wishes to receive criminal legal aid shall apply to the Board, which shall grant his application forthwith without regard to his resources or to any other criteria.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this point has already been covered by Amendment No. 33 and therefore I do not intend to move this amendment.
[Amendment No. 34 not moved.]
9.45 p.m.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No 35:
After Clause 25, insert the following new clause:
("Prosecution under 1975 Act.
.—(1) In all cases in which the High Court of Justiciary authorises a new prosecution of a person under the provisions of sections 255 or 452B of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975, and such a prosecution is instituted against him, that person shall be entitled to criminal legal aid in terms of this Act.
(2) Such a person as is mentioned in subsection (1) above who wishes to receive criminal legal aid shall apply to the court in which such a prosecution is instituted, and the court shall grant his application forthwith without regard to his resources or to any other criteria.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment covers a case where the appeal court authorises a new prosecution. One would expect that in these rare cases where something has gone wrong in the court procedure rather than on either side if the person previously had legal aid, he would get it again. But this is also intended to apply where a person previously did not have legal aid and should get legal aid because he is being tried twice in a situation where the second trial is not his fault. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I have given further consideration to this matter since the debate in Committee, when I did not respond to the point that is now being made—that there should be an automatic grant of legal aid to someone who had originally funded his own defence and who, after a successful appeal, is subject to a retrial. The Government would wish to give further consideration to this matter, and, if they were to accept it, to the wording of any provision which would give effect to their consideration. It would obviously be more convenient if any such provision were to be included in an existing clause so that it attracted other relevant provisions rather than in a new separate clause.
While I can give no undertaking at this stage that this matter can be dealt with in any further proceedings in this House, I hope that with that assurance the noble Lord will not press the amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, certainly. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 36:
After Clause 25, insert the following new clause:
("Accused person's right.
. Where a doubt arises whether criminal legal aid should be made available to an accused person the doubt shall be resolved in that person's favour.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is moved with the hope of bringing the criminal legal aid provisions in Scotland into line with those in England. The amendment is identical to what is provided in Section 29(6) of the Legal Aid Act 1974. If that provision is appropriate in England, it is difficult to see why it is not appropriate in Scotland. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, in the first place, as the noble Lord prayed in aid England as the reason for his amendment—
Lord Elwyn-Jones: And Wales, my Lords.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: And Wales, indeed, as I am properly reminded by the noble and learned Lord—it is right to remind the House that the tests for the provision of criminal legal aid in England and Wales are slightly different.
I understand that it is granted when it first appears to the court to be desirable to do so in the interests of justice. Your Lordships will observe the test:
"Where it appears to the court desirable to do so";
and, secondly, the provision is:
"A court shall not make a legal aid order … unless it appears to the court that his"—
that is, the applicant's—
"means are such that he requires assistance in meeting the costs which he may incur for that purpose."
That differs from the tests contained in the Bill, which provides that the board is "to be satisfied". That is a clear test. It is included in Clause 24. That has been the basis upon which, in the past, the courts have operated. They have not had the "benefit of the doubt" provision. I suggest that the "benefit of the doubt" provision is unnecessary in a case where the tests are as clear as they are stated here.
The court or the board must be satisfied that certain criteria are met. It seems right that the applicant should be obliged to produce the relevant material upon which the court or the board, as the case may be, can base a proper judgment. It seems therefore reasonable that where a person is seeking the benefit of legal aid the onus should be on him to justify his application. When the case comes to court, it is for the Crown authorities to prove that the prosecution is justified.
With respect to the noble Lord, I do not think that the taking of a particular provision out of a general corpus of legal aid legislation, which is differently stated and which includes a different test, is appropriate. For that reason I must ask your Lordships not to accept the amendment.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord referred to the test that is applied to the good people of England and Wales. As a matter of clarity, will he explain what the test is for the bad people of England and Wales?
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, it may be that the provision in Scotland is more definite, in the sense that the board has to be satisfied. But in any situation where you have something like 60,000 applications a year, you will naturally have cases which are on the borderline of being satisfied or not being satisfied. That must happen in any real situation. All I am suggesting is that where there is a doubt as to whether the board is or is not satisfied by the evidence or the factors produced to it, that doubt has to be decided in the accused person's favour. It is a fairly reasonable provision; it is a provision that does not appear to have caused any difficulty in England or Wales, and the provisions, though different, are as precise. At this stage of the evening, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, while not promising not to return to it at a later stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 29 [Legal aid in certain proceedings relating to children]:
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 37:
Page 20, line 4, leave out ("neccessary").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment. The equivalent provision in the 1967 Act has the word "necessary", but its inclusion in the Bill when compared with the analogous interests of justice tests for summary criminal legal aid and contempt of court proceedings does not add anything and might seem to imply a stricter test than in either of those cases. That is not the intention and therefore the word is better deleted. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 31 [Solicitors and counsel]:
Lord Elwyn-Jones Lord Elwyn-Jones moved Amendment No. 38:
Page 22, line 34, leave out subsection (8).
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, it may be convenient to discuss together Amendments Nos. 38 and 39. Clauses 31 to 33 relate to the availability of solicitors and counsel in the legal aid scheme. Clause 31(1) reads splendidly and states:
"Subject to section 30(2) of this Act and to regulations made under subsection (9) below, a person to whom legal aid or advice and assistance is made available may select—

(a) the solicitor to advise or act for him; and

(b) if the case requires counsel, his counsel and he shall be entitled to make the selection himself."

But, behold!, there are major intrusions on that statement of principle and practice which ought to be common to the administration of legal aid. The basic aim should be, so far as it is practical to do so, to put the assisted person in the same position in regard to freedom of choice of a solicitor or counsel as the person able to pay for his legal representation.
In the Bill, there are two limitations. First, there is the limitation in Clause 30(2), which I find a somewhat obscure provision. It reads:
"In making legal aid available under subsection (1) above, the court may order it any case that the legal aid shall consist of representation by counsel only or, in a court where solicitors have a right of audience, by a solicitor only;"
and then come the words,
"and, notwithstanding section 31 of this Act, the court may assign for the purpose any counsel or solicitor who is within the precincts of the court at the time when the order is made."
Is this a reversion to the old procedure that we had in England and Wales of praying a tales? Does the applicant have to apply and is it then like the old days at the Old Bailey? You put a rope round the bottom of the road and haul them in—certainly to form a jury—if you are praying a tales? What is this curious procedure that any counsel or solicitor who is within the precincts when the order is made is for it and may be brought to the scene of justice? Has the accused person no voice at all in this matter? I may be reading it quite wrongly, and, if I am, perhaps I may be enlightened upon it.
I come now to the manifestly and clearly objectionable limitation on the principle that Clause 31(1) seems to enunciate. Subsection (8) states:
"The Board may arrange that, in such circumstances as it may specify, a solicitor shall be available for the purposes of providing legal aid or advice and assistance".
What circumstances? What is contemplated there? What are the exceptions? What are the limitations?
Then we come to subsection (9):
"Where a solicitor is available as is mentioned in subsection (8), the Secretary of Slate may, by regulations … provide that—
(a) subsection (1) above"—
the freedom of choice provision—
"shall not apply; and
(b) legal aid or … advice and assistance"—
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it covers the civil and the criminal field—
"shall be provided only by the solicitor so made available".
Is this the setting up of a new creation of duty solicitor? What is contemplated in this machinery? Will the accused person have any choice as to who is to represent him? What area of choice is available to the board? I find his extremely obscure and disturbing and I hope that we may have a satisfactory explanation. Better still, I hope that some of these obscure and obnoxious provisions will be dropped with a bang; if not a bang at least with a whimper.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, I wonder whether this is an extension of the duty solicitor system that we have at the present time. Will the noble and learned Lord bear in mind—I am sure that he will—the unsatisfactory reports one gets from accused persons about having a duty solicitor foisted upon them two or three minutes before they are due to go into court, with a very unsatisfactory time for the consultation? If that is so, under these proposals will steps be taken to ensure that a more satisfactory system will be in operation so that in effect the accused person will have exactly the same advantage as a person who is instructing his own solicitor and counsel?
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene in order to support this amendment, and I do it very briefly on the following grounds. I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will not reply that this is meant to cover the necessity for a duty solicitor scheme. If that were so I would ask him to amend this clause so as to specify precisely the circumstances—I believe that this was the point being made by my noble and learned friend Lord Elwyn-Jones—in which the Secretary of State has this very extraordinary, and it may be quite pernicious, right.
One can envisage certainly in civil proceedings that there could be proceedings against the Secretary of State. There could be proceedings against another Minister. Is it suggested that by regulation, certainly within the purview of the powers contained in this clause as is stands, there could be a provision that a certain solicitor and a certain counsel would be assigned to that case with no right whatever to the assisted person to choose his own solicitor or counsel? I repeat that there must be no vagueness here. If it is intended to include a perfectly harmless right, that right must be spelt out.
I add as a second and final reason for concern that we may, certainly in criminal cases, be breaching the European Convention on Human Rights. For the purpose at least of completing the argument, perhaps I may be allowed to quote Article 6.3 of that convention:
"Every one charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights: to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing, or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require it".
I hope that the noble and learned Lord will regard this as a very serious matter, certainly in regard to making abundantly clear what is intended.
10 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I am grateful to those who have spoken. I shall deal first with a point that may be regarded as being wide of the mark in some sense, but it was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, and concerns Clause 30. That deals with contempt of court, which can be dealt with summarily by a court. That being so, that gives content to subsection (2). Indeed, I believe I am correct in saying that it was introduced as a result of the Contempt of Court Act 1981.
The amendments are directed to subsections that rehearse in somewhat different form much more general powers that are to be found in a section of the 1967 Act, which was added to by the Administration of Justice Act 1977. That provided that where, in pursuance of arrangements made by the Law Society in accordance with any scheme at the time being in force, a solicitor is available in any court for the special purpose of giving legal aid in connection with the criminal proceedings in that court, the scheme may specify proceedings in which an accused person shall not be entitled to legal aid in that court otherwise than by representation by that solicitor; that is to say, as has been mentioned already, the duty solicitor scheme.
Clause 31(8) will therefore be used to allow the board to continue the duty solicitor arrangements. While I have taken note of what has been said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, which is certainly a matter that would be of interest to the new board, I imagine that it is the intention that the duty solicitor system will remain.
As the House will already be aware, we intend that those accused who are in custody, whether it be under summary or solemn procedure, should have access to a duty solicitor for preliminary proceedings. That is not unreasonable and it avoids unnecessary duplication of effort to restrict the provision of legal aid for such proceedings to the duty solicitor. That does not prevent an accused from having a different solicitor providing legal aid in subsequent proceedings, though accused may and often do choose to continue to use the same solicitor.
My understanding is that representatives of the Central Legal Aid Committee indicated during the course of consultations that they were prepared to accept such a restriction for the first appearance of an accused. Therefore, the provisions are not designed to restrict the client's choice of solicitor arbitrarily but simply provide for the continuation and support (and that is the second subsection) of the duty solicitor arrangement.
I have paid attention to what has been said, in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, about this matter. Obviously we shall have to look at these provisions. They are not included with any sinister intent, and I trust I have made that clear.
I shall also consider what the noble Lord said about the European Convention on Human Rights; although I think I am right in saying—I am open to correction—that in fact it does not require that an accused who wishes legal assistance has the right to a solicitor or
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counsel of his own choosing. I think it merely provides that he shall have legal representation. That is a small point; and on the more general point I assure noble Lords that the clear purpose is to continue the duty solicitor arrangements if the board is of that mind.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, one observed how great was his care to limit the matter to schemes. He likened the scheme that obtains in England and Wales with the Law Society. Of course, that is a definite scheme, agreed with the Law Society. There is no such reference in this Bill to any scheme. It is unlimited, and while one obviously trusts the intentions of the noble and learned Lord we are dealing—and this is a general phrase so often uttered—with an Act of Parliament and not with the noble and learned Lord's good intentions.
Therefore, may one take it that the noble and learned Lord is going to look at this again with a view to seeing whether particular words can be used to make this power very clearly expressed, with its limitation very clearly expressed?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I think I can do no more than simply say that I have fully understood the points which the noble Lord opposite has made. I will certainly bring those points to the attention of those who are particularly concerned to see that these words fully express the intention of the Bill.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, I, too, am grateful for that intimation. I repeat that as the words stand they give no clue as to what is in mind—which is potentially beneficial to the accused person, oddly enough, but which sounds exactly the opposite. Therefore, I hope that the matter will be clarified before the next stage of the Bill is reached; otherwise, we shall have to take appropriate steps to have the issue re-opened.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down I should make quite clear that what I said did not suggest I would be in a position to come forward with any clarification before the next stage. but I certainly undertake that I shall bring the matter to the attention of my colleagues.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, perhaps we shall be informed at the next stage of what the noble and learned Lord is going to do. At the moment he has left us in hopeful darkness, almost as dark as the darkness which fell upon us when that sinister red curtain was drawn across the visual scene. It is not good enough to leave the matter at that, but in the circumstances and at this time I shall reserve whatever fire-power is still left with us. However, I hope the matter will be put right because, seriously, as it stands it is a nonsense. I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 39 not moved.]
Lord Wilson of Langside Lord Wilson of Langside moved Amendment No. 40:
Page 23, line 4, at end insert (";
(c) in relation either to a solicitor or an advocate, the Board").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I feel that I should start with the words of that great television art form by saying, "Now for something entirely different". If accepted, this amendment would confer on the Legal Aid Board the disciplinary powers at present enjoyed by the Law Society of Scotland and the Faculty of Advocates over members of both branches of the profession acting under the legal aid scheme. If the Bill is enacted, these powers will continue to be enjoyed by those two bodies.
There is a widespread feeling among the public that the Law Society of Scotland and the Faculty of Advocates, in exercising these disciplinary powers, have been perhaps less ruthless than many of the public feel that they ought to have been. This is a feeling that, with my experience in the field, I share, as also, apparently, does the Scottish Consumer Council, which supports the amendment. As it is so late—this matter opens up a wide area of discussion—I cannot perhaps do better than to quote from part of a briefing that many of your Lordships, I imagine, have received. The council says:
"We believe that it is in the public interest that the new Board should have a similar power".
That is the power to suspend, temporarily or otherwise, subject always to a right of appeal to the Court of Session, any member of the profession who is guilty of a certain degree of misconduct in the discharge of his duties under the legal aid scheme. It goes on to say:
"The present Bill leaves the power of exclusion to the professional organisations, the Law Society and the Faculty of Advocates. This is not sufficient. There may be cases where a practitioner has not broken any professional rules of conduct which would concern the Society or the Faculty but where he has not acted properly in relation to the Board, for example, by consistently overcharging or dragging cases out. It is not likely"
—and the council acknowledges this—
"that the Board would need to use this power often".
Indeed, it says—and so far as I can discover this is correct—that the powers have never been used. I must say that from my experience in the field I find this extraordinary. The council goes on to say:
"However, the existence of the power will give the Board more authority in dealing with practitioners who overstep the mark".
I can understand the Government refusing to accept the amendment as I put it down at Committee stage. I have more difficulty in understanding the reaction to that amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, who dismissed it as inept and, in effect, as I understood it, as irrelevant, the implication being that there is not a problem. But there is a problem. This may not be the best answer. It is not an insult to the solicitors' profession. There has been reference already today to the fact that all individuals, groups and organisations have, in effect, their blind spots. This, in the view of many of us, is a blind spot in these professional organisations. They have not been sufficiently ruthless in insisting on high standards.
One saw, sitting particularly on the Bench in the summary criminal court, many instances that should have been caught up. Let me give one illustration. I
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could go on all night but, fear not, I will not. It was not unusual, at the end of a lengthy and disruptive summary criminal trial of more or less seriousness, to discover that the accused had instructed his solicitor to plead guilty. The solicitor had declined to do so. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Morton, will not lecture me about this. I am perfectly conscious that one had often enough to advise clients that they should not plead guilty, for a variety of reasons. On the Bench in the summary court one had often enough to advise men who expressed a desire to plead guilty that they should not plead guilty.
10.15 p.m.
I shall not detain your Lordships with the reasons for that. I am perfectly conscious of this. I am talking about the not unusual case where a solicitor has in effect persuaded his client, against his own better judgment, to go to trial. I have never yet found a case where, when this was uncovered, the solicitor's legal aid certificate was discharged and he did not get his fee. I should have thought that any lawyer who did this kind of thing was not entitled to his fee from the public purse.
This is not a generalised attack on solicitors, but it happened often enough to make it a problem. I myself found the greatest difficulty with the Law Society in Scotland, whether I was on the Bench dealing with these matters or as a Law Officer; and during the consultations on this Bill I found the greatest difficulty in impressing them with the need to take action in this field.
After all, on the Labour Benches they are not normally loath to control other groups and to urge Government and statutory bodies to tell people how to behave or how to conduct their own affairs; but when one suggests that in this area the legal organisation—admirable people who perform a great job in other areas—has a small blind spot about which, from the public interest point of view, it is immensely important that something should be done, then I get a little worried and depressed. If the noble and leared Lord the Lord Advocate could have said, as the noble Lord, Lord Morton, said, that he would encourage his colleagues to see the need for a more ruthless approach to the problem of the small number of black sheep, I should be happy about this.
In the meantime, people have been in correspondence with me who have expressed extreme concern about this. They included not only Scottish counsel but two of the lay members of the legal aid central committee, whose approach to me has been most impressive. They have expressed great concern. If the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate and others in the profession would bring home to the professional organisations the need for action in this field, that would be progress. It would be better than nothing.
I propose to return to this at Third Reading, not because I think that the profession is in a bad state but because I think that it is a little too complacent about matters which worry the layman involved with the law in the courts and elsewhere. I shall return to this and give many illustrations because the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Morton, in this matter has been to suggest that there is not a problem and that the suggestions of abuse and all these matters are

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imaginings of reactionary politicians and others with a special interest. That is not so. I shall return to the matter and have more to say upon it because we have the opportunity with this Bill to get to grips with the problem. I beg to move.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I seem to have been mentioned a great deal. I looked up what I said in Committee and found that it seemed to take up rather less than a full column, and only about five lines dealt with abuses.
I oppose the amendment because it seems to me to be misconceived. There are undoubtedly black sheep in every profession, and if I suggested that that were not so I apologise to your Lordships for misleading you. However, if one has a situation of overcharging, the only way in which it can be dealt with is by the auditor of court. The legal aid committee has taken a very considerable number of cases of overcharging to the auditor of court and it has been successful in some cases and unsuccessful in others.
However, there is available a method of dealing with overcharging. Dragging cases out is primarily a case for the sheriff or judge hearing the case. It is very difficult for a legal aid board which, by its constitution, is non-legal, and deliberately non-legal, to be able to work out whether somebody is abusing the legal aid scheme by dragging out a case. The only way in which that could be dealt with would be by a report from the judge.
To insist on a plea of not guilty when the client wishes to plead guilty is, I should have thought, the most obvious professional misconduct, and either the Faculty of Advocates or the Law Society would deal with it very strictly indeed if it were brought to their attention. The difficulty in cases of that type, as I am sure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, is aware, is to prove it, if it happens. It is one thing to have somebody who may have previous convictions saying after a trial, "Oh, but I always wanted to plead guilty", because you then have to put that against the solicitor who says, "He insisted on pleading not guilty". Where is your proof?
I know that there have been consistent rumours that there are certain solicitors who insist on a fee in addition to the legal aid fee. Such rumours have always been investigated with great thoroughness by the prosecution authorities when any suggestion has been made to them, but so far as I am aware there has never been any satisfactory amount of evidence. It appears to me that this is a misconceived amendment, and that it is proper that if the board considers that there has been misconduct either by an advocate or by a solicitor, it is the professional discipline of those bodies that should deal with the matter. Therefore, I oppose the amendment.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I should put on record that the Law Society has a complaints committee, of which a distinguished layman is chairman.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, we have covered this ground in Committee, but I have since seen the comments of the central committee lay
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members to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, referred. I obviously accept the points which were made there, that the scope of paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (3) may go wider than professional misconduct itself. Indeed, there is force in the argument that the board which pays the piper should at least to some extent call the tune.
However, I recognise that the noble and learned Lord has already appreciated that there will be considerable difficulty in seeking to separate out professional misconduct, with which professional bodies should appropriately deal, from the other elements. It would not be reasonable—indeed, it would lead to practical difficulties—if we had both the board and the professional body having precisely the same powers. On balance it is preferable, therefore, since professional conduct is in question, that the responsibility should rest with the professional body which deals with disciplinary questions.
I have already referred to my confidence in the will and capacity of both sides of the profession in Scotland to give effect to the intention of this part of the framework of legal aid. It is an essential part of the framework; essential for the proper administration of legal aid in Scotland. I shall have no hesitation in drawing the remarks of the noble and learned Lord again to each body.
I accept the point that, while the present powers have seldom been used, I understand that the Law Society are themselves giving careful consideration to their possible exercise in appropriate cases in future. There are of course other ways in which the board can deal with the kind of problems to which the noble and learned Lord made reference in his quotation from the comments he had received, and those have been referred to already by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton. I suggest that the provision in the Bill is, on balance, the best one, and therefore I regret that I cannot accept the amendment.
Lord Wilson of Langside: My Lords, I am grateful to the Lord Advocate for his response to this matter, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 32 [Restriction on payment and employment of solicitor or counsel]:
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendments Nos. 41 to 43:
Page 23, line 10, leave out ("a person is in receipt of legal aid") and insert ("legal aid is available to a person").
Page 23, line 14, after ("of") insert ("any advice given or anything done in connection with").
Page 23, line 14, after ("proceedings") insert ("during any period when legal aid was so available").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House I beg to move Amendments 41, 42 and 43 en bloc. In Committee I undertook to look again at the wording of Clause 32. It is not our intention to prevent payment to a solicitor for work which has been carried out either before an application for legal aid has been made or after legal aid has been withdrawn. These amendments are designed to put this intention beyond doubt on the face of the Bill. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 33 [Fees and outlays of solicitors and counsel]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 44:
Page 24, line 5, at end insert ("and in making regulations under this section as to the amounts payable to counsel or a solicitor who acts for any person by providing legal aid or advice and assistance under this Act, and any person by whom any such amount falls to be assessed, taxed or reviewed under the regulations, the Secretary of State shall have regard to the principle of allowing fair remuneration according to the work actually and reasonably done.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment just provides that in fixing the fees the Secretary of State shall have regard to the principle of allowing fair remuneration for work actually and reasonably done. It is the same provision as in the English and Welsh legislation. No doubt it will be strongly opposed, presumably on the basis that the Government do not wish that there should be fair remuneration.
The present consultation process, if consultation is the word, has the unfortunate effect that one is just told, so I am informed, that a certain percentage is available, and that is that. If fair and reasonable remuneration is the position in England and Wales, why is it not to be allowed in Scotland? Are the Government intending that in Scotland legal aid should become so poorly paid, and so unfairly and unreasonably remunerated, that only second-class lawyers will be prepared to do it? I cannot understand why this amendment should be opposed, and I beg to move.
10.30 p.m.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, the formula which appears in this clause is one which was enacted as recently as 1983 with general support, as I understand it, from all parties. It is now repeated in this Bill. I suggest that it is a much clearer exposition and one which your Lordships should prefer. Under the present regulations relating to criminal legal aid fees the general principle is that there should be allowed such amount as may be determined in accordance with the regulations to be reasonable remuneration for work actually and reasonably done, due regard being had for economy.
I have heard nothing in what the noble Lord has said which suggested that he was in any way dissatisfied with the terms of the present provisions or of the regulations. I mentioned in Committee that discussions were to start shortly between the Scottish Home and Health Department and the Law Society on a review of the existing fee structures for legal aid advice and assistance. I have to say that the first meeting is to be held next week and during the review consideration will be given to the factors relevant to the determination of fees.
The Government have no wish to change the basic provisions in the Scottish primary legislation. The argument which the noble Lord has advanced does not suggest that there is any reason to be dissatisfied with that which operates at present. For that reason I cannot commend the amendment to the House.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, this is clearly not the time or place to divide the House. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 37 [Parliamentary procedure]:
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom Lord Cameron of Lochbroom moved Amendment No. 45:
Page 27, line 20, leave out ("14(3)").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have spoken to this amendment. It is consequential to Amendment No. 14, which was agreed earlier.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of Selkirk The Earl of Selkirk moved Amendment No. 46:
Page 27, line 20, after ("17(2)") insert ("17(5)").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that among those regulations of which a draft will be laid before the House will be those under Clause 17(5). That is the subsection to which I have already spoken and which uses phrases that I do not think the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate explained or showed as being wholly satisfactory as it stands. On this subsection regulations will be made. The words to which I have drawn attention are:
"shall be paid, in priority to any other debts".
If we are to make a regulation about that, it seems to me that we should know the details in draft form. They bear a close resemblance to the discussions we had on the subject of insolvency, which was always somewhat arguable. Therefore I believe that regulations under Clause 17(5) should be presented to the House in draft form. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, the regulations under Clause 17(5) are designed to permit the Secretary of State to provide for circumstances in which the expenses of the action are not to be a charge on property which is recovered or preserved. They are a regulating power which is already found in Section 3 of the 1967 Act and which is subject to negative procedure. There is thus this precedent in existing legislation. The power is one to relax, in appropriate circumstances, the normal requirements of Clause 17(5) which would otherwise be more strict than would be proposed in regulations. In those circumstances I am not persuaded that the affirmative procedure would be appropriate. In the light of those considerations I hope that my noble friend will agree to withdraw his amendment.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, this is an extremely small request which I am making. I am completely unconvinced by the manner in which the noble and learned Lord has dismissed it. We are supposed to be reforming the law in regard to legal aid. All we get are quotations from previous Acts which we are not allowed to change. I think this is a power of an extreme nature.
I am concerned about the house a person lives in and the tools of his trade. These are the things that matter and I want to know what will be the regulations about them. We have a better chance of discussing them if they are in draft. It is a very small request. It is one which could be of enormous importance to individuals. I ask the noble and learned Lord to think again hard on this. I will not press it this evening, but I ask him to think very hard because this procedure is not usual. In the Insolvency Bill we had a lot of discussion practically upon these very words. If the

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noble and learned Lord can say that he will at least think about it, I shall beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 47:
Page 27, line 24, at end insert—
("( ) Where the Secretary of State proposes to make regulations under this Act he shall refer the proposals in the form of draft regulations or otherwise to the Board.
( ) The Board shall consider any proposals referred to it by the Secretary of State under this section and shall make to the Secretary of State a report containing such recommendations with regard to the subject matter of the proposals as they think appropriate.
( ) If after receiving a report from the Board the Secretary of State lays before Parliament any regulations which comprise the whole or any part of the subject matter of the proposals referred to the Board he shall lay with the regulations a copy of the Board's report and a statement showing—

(a) the extent (if any) to which he has in framing the regulations given effect to the Board's recommendation, and

(b) in so far as effect has not been given to them, his reasons why not.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I trust that this amendment will be accepted. The purpose of it is to make sure that in drafting regulations the Secretary of State consults the board and gives the board an opportunity to comment on the proposals and that the report from the board should be laid before Parliament with any draft regulations. It is obviously essential that if the board and the Secretary of State are disagreeing about regulations, Parliament should be told of this and be able to make up its own mind, so to speak. It seems to me to be an essential power to give to allow the board a way of asserting some independence. I beg to move.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, my noble friend knows that from the time this Bill was put before the House it has been heavily criticised for the volume of regulations. They are, in fact, decrees in many cases because they are so difficult to change. I do not want to push this too far but I do not know any Bill which has been so full of regulations to be laid before the House as this has. I do not want to exaggerate this but I was in Germany a little while before Hitler came to power. The parliament was making government by decree. I think that we have got to be very careful about the long-range consequences and the precedent we are setting in this Bill. I know that the professions will be greatly relieved and I know that many people in the House will be, too, if something of this character is accepted, if a larger number of these regulations can be submitted to the board appointed by the Secretary of State specially for this job—a board which is now being bypassed almost universally through this Bill. I have great sympathy with the view of my noble friend Lord Perth that he would not be a member of a board which could be bypassed so extensively by statute.
Lord Wheatley: My Lords, I want to add my voice to the plea that has just been made by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. Here is another opportunity, in view of the criticisms that have been levelled about the position of the Secretary of State in relation to the operation of legal aid under this Bill, of removing that
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big cause of criticism which seems to loom over almost all that is taking place.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I think I gave an assurance to my noble friend earlier when this particular point of consultation was raised. I simply repeat what I said then about the generality of that matter. However, I would have to say that this amendment goes further because it deals with the position about laying reports before Parliament. I must say that such a provision would seem likely to give rise to difficulties because the board may well wish to back up its advice and, of course, it now has the power to advise generally with references to confidential matters. Moreover, the amendment is quite general in regard to the reference to regulations.
I cannot accept the amendment so far as it extends to the laying of reports before Parliament in relation to any consultation process. I have, of course, indicated earlier to the House a preparedness to look at what has been said about the consultation process. In the light of that, I would hope that the noble Lord opposite will not press this amendment.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I think it is far too late to press an amendment at this stage, and for that reason alone I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 1 [The Scottish Legal Aid Board]:
Lord Morton of Shuna Lord Morton of Shuna moved Amendment No. 48:
Page 33, line 5, leave out ("or is unsuitable to continue as a member").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this amendment. The schedule, in paragraph 5, gives power to the Secretary of State to terminate an appointment of a member of a board in various circumstances. The first is fairly obvious: that he becomes unable to pay his creditors. The second is also fairly obvious: that he is incapacitated by illness. The third is that he does not attend meetings of the board. The next is that he is otherwise unable or unfit to discharge the functions of a member of the board. And then there is the catch-all:
"or is unsuitable to continue as a member".
His unsuitability therefore is not bankruptcy, health, absence or otherwise, or being unable or unfit to discharge the functions. He is perfectly able and perfectly fit, but he is unsuitable. Who decides that he is unsuitable and what decides unsuitability? Is it just that he disagrees with the views of a particular Secretary of State?
It seems to me that nothing shows the lack of independence of the board more than this power (at any time, apparently) that if the Secretary of State is dissatisfied with the views of any member of the board he is able to decide that he or she is unsuitable to continue as a member of the board and can terminate the appointment. These are unnecessary words because the other unsuitabilities are covered by the other provisions. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I should have felt more sympathy if the noble Lord opposite

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had been prepared to say that from his examination of other legislation there was no such provision in schedules of this kind. I observed, however, that he remained silent on that matter. I have to say that this is a standard provision and one which is well precedented. For instance, I can give the noble Lord a reference to paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 to the Highlands and Islands Development (Scotland) Act 1965, which contains a provision which is identical to that in this Bill.
I have already emphasised during an earlier discussion on the Bill that board members will be appointed for their personal qualities. It is reasonable that the Secretary of State should have power to terminate their appointment if they prove unsuitable. The test is an objective one, relating to unsuitability to continue as a member, and the Secretary of State would have to have reasons which, viewed objectively, justified his action.
The paragraph refers to certain other factors which, if they exist, would mean that the Secretary of State may terminate the appointment of a member of the board. But what if there were a conflict of interest? That would not fall within the terms of the other paragraphs, or even of the earlier words in paragraph 5(d). What if his behaviour were inconsistent with membership of the board? What if he had been involved in some type of criminal activity? Obviously in such circumstances it would be inappropriate that an individual should continue as a member of the board, and without these words it would not be open to the Secretary of State to take action to terminate his appointment to the board.
For those reasons, and in the light of those comments, I sincerely hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment. I assure him that there is again nothing sinister in this phrase, just as I have attempted to assure him earlier that even if he looks under the bed he will see nothing of any substance to concern him, of red or any other colour.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, with great respect, I think that the noble and learned Lord is missing the whole point. He has emphasised that this is an independent board. The Secretary of State by sole fiat says, "Get out; you aren't following my instructions". That is the point. In this particular case it may not apply to East Kilbride or the Highlands boards, but it is the form in which the Secretary of State has complete control over any membership of the board. That I think is the real point of this, and I hope it will not be entirely lost sight of.
Lord Morton of Shuna: My Lords, I thought that Little Red Riding Hood saw granny in the bed and it turned out to be a wolf. It may be that we are all looking at something that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate assures us is a very gentle and uninimical Bill. Perhaps those who have spoken against it are right, and it is a very dangerous Bill. It seems unusual that the only one who cannot see its dangers is the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate, because nobody else has spoken up in favour of the Bill. But at this stage I would ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.

Blyth Harbour Bill [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with an amendment, and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
Mersey Docks and Harbour Bill [H.L.]
Committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.

Port of Fosdyke Bill [H.L.]
Committed to a Select Committee.
House adjourned at twelve minutes before eleven o'clock.

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