Sitting of 30 October 1985

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners:
The House went:—and, having returned:

PRAYERS

  Royal Assent
  3.10 pm
  Mr. Speaker: I have to acquaint the House that the House has been to the House of Peers where a Commission under the Great Seal was read, authorising the Royal Assent to the following Acts:

  1. Administration of Justice Act 1985

  2. Oil and Pipelines Act 1985

  3. Water (Fluoridation) Act 1985

  4. European Communities (Finance) Act 1985

  5. Insolvency Act 1985

  6. Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 1985

  7. Transport Act 1985

  8. Housing Act 1985

  9. Housing Associations Act 1985

  10. Landlord and Tenant Act 1985

  11. Housing (Consequential Provisions) Act 1985

  12. Weights and Measures Act 1985

  13. Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1985

  14. Associated British Ports (Point of Ayr) Order Confirmation Act 1985

  .15 Church of Scotland Trust (Amendment) Order Confirmation Act 1985

  16. Dartmoor Commons Act 1985

  17. Lincoln City Council Act 1985

  18 Merseyside Development Corporation Act 1985

  19. Cambridge City Council Act 1985

  20. Birmingham City Council Act 1985

  21. Hereford City Council Act 1985

  22. Worcester City Council Act 1985

  23. Clwyd County Council Act 1985

Prorogation

  Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech
  Mr. Speaker: I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, one of the High Commissioners, delivered Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament, in pursuance of Her Majesty's Command. For greater accuracy, I have obtained a copy and directed that the terms of the Speech be printed in the Votes and Proceedings. Copies are being made available in the Vote Office.
  The Gracious Speech was as follows:

  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
  The Duke of Edinburgh and I were pleased to receive the State Visits of the Life President of Malawi in April and the President of Mexico and Senora de la Madrid in June. We were saddened by the devastation caused by the earthquake in Mexico in September, for which my Government provided prompt assistance.
  We recall with much satisfaction the State Visit to Portugal in March. I have also visited Belize, and was in the Bahamas for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. Our tour of Commonwealth countries in the Eastern Caribbean is still in progress.
  My Government welcomed the decision of the Maldives and of St. Vincent and the Grenadines to become full members of the Commonwealth.
  My Government have maintained Britain's contribution to Western defence, and enhanced the United Kingdom's own defences through improvements in equipment and in the regular and reserve forces. They have played a full part in the Atlantic Alliance, and promoted British and Western defence interests outside the NATO area.
  My Government have continued to work vigorously for agreements on verifiable arms control and disarmament, and to seek improved relations with the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. They warmly welcomed the opening of talks in Geneva between the United States and the Soviet Union and fully support the United States' efforts to reach concrete agreements.
  My Government have signed the Treaty on the Accession of Spain and Portugal to the European Communities, and have signed and ratified the third Convention of Lomé. An Act has been passed implementing the Fontainebleau Agreement on the future financing of the European Communities, including the correction of the British budgetary contribution.
  My Government share the widespread public concern for the victims of the famine in Africa. They have continued to provide substantial emergency assistance both directly and through the European Community.
  My Government have continued fully to honour their undertakings to the people of the Falkland Islands, while taking positive steps to seek more normal relations with Argentina. The Sino-British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong was signed last December and an Act consequent upon its terms was passed. My Government have reached agreement with Spain on the implementation of the Lisbon statement concerning Gibraltar.
  My Government have supported efforts to restore the independence and non-aligned status of Afghanistan. They have urged peaceful change in South Africa and the early independence of Namibia.
  My Government welcomed to the United Kingdom in June the Premier of the State Council of the People's Republic of China. The great importance my Government attach to their relations with the Countries of South East and South Asia was marked by the Prime Minister's visit there in April and by the visit here this month of the Indian Prime Minister.

  Members of the House of Commons
  I thank you for the provision which you have made for the honour and dignity of the Crown and for the public service.

  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
  My Government have maintained the policies necessary to bring down inflation and sustain economic growth. Inflation remains low, the output of the nation is at its highest level ever and continues to increase, as does the number of people in work.
  Further steps have been taken to help the unemployed into jobs by extending the Youth Training Scheme and enlarging the Community Programme, and in other ways, including a reform of the structure of national insurance contributions.
  To promote economic efficiency and encourage the spread of share ownership, not least among employees, my Government have continued their programme of returning state-owned businesses to the private sector, including the successful public flotation of British Telecommunications.
  An Act has been passed to complete the transition of the Trustee Savings Banks to full private sector status and to permit wide public participation in their ownership.
  An Act has been passed to increase competition in the provision of local bus services in Great Britain and to enable the operations of the National Bus Company to be transferred to the private sector.
  Legislation has been enacted to make further provision for the payment of grants to the National Coal Board and to abolish the British National Oil Corporation.
  Legislation has been enacted to remove the statutory levy on cinema admissions, to provide for alternative financial assistance for film production and to reduce the regulatory burden on the film and cinema industries.
  An Act has been passed for the better protection of food and the environment.
  An Act has been passed to establish in England and Wales a Crown Prosecution Service independent of the police, and to enable time limits to be imposed on criminal proceedings.
  An Act has been passed giving the right to vote at Parliamentary and European Parliament elections to
  984
  many British citizens resident abroad, and extending postal and proxy voting to electors who cannot reasonably be expected to vote in person.
  Legislation has been passed to establish a comprehensive statutory framework governing the interception of communications.
  An Act has been passed to deal with the problem of drunkenness at designated sporting events.
  Considerable advance has been made in the consolidation of our statute law; provision has been made to apply international Conventions on child abduction and for the administration of justice.
  An Act has been passed to abolish the Greater London Council and the Metropolitan County Councils on 1st April 1986 and to transfer most of their functions to the borough and district councils.
  In Northern Ireland, my Government have attached high importance to the maintenance of law and order. They have continued the search for ways in which responsibility can be returned to a local administration on a widely acceptable basis. They have sought to develop a solid working relationship with the Government of the Republic of Ireland.
  For Scotland, measures have been passed to introduce a rebate scheme following rating revaluation, to establish trustee bodies to manage certain Scottish institutions, and to make a number of reforms in Scots law.
  Legislation has been passed to reform insolvency law in England and Wales, and in Scotland.
  My Government have published proposals to improve the quality of school education, the effectiveness of teachers and the development of higher education into the next decade.
  My Government have conducted a fundamental review of the social security system and published proposals for radical reform.
  In addition, my Government have protected the real value of the retirement pension and other related benefits, and passed an act to improve employees' rights under occupational pension schemes, and to extend statutory sick pay.

  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
  I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may attend you.
  Thereafter a Commission for proroguing Parliament was read, after which the Lord Chancellor said:
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
  By virtue of Her Majesty's Commission which has been now read we do, in Her Majesty's name, and in obedience to Her Majesty's Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Wednesday the sixth day of November, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Wednesday the sixth day of November next.
  End of the Second Session (opened on 6 November 1984) of the Forty-Ninth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in the Thirty-Fourth Year of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Tanzania (Road)
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TRADE AND INDUSTRY
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  English Estates
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EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
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  Natural Environment Research Council
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ENERGY
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  Youth Training Scheme
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  CEGB (Publicity Material)
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  British Gas
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  Energy Conservation
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NORTHERN IRELAND
  Social Security (Fraudulent Claims)
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  European Regional Development Fund
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  Remand Prisoners
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  Store Lambs (Imports)
  Store Lambs (Imports)
  Industrial Development Board
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  Harland and Wolff
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  Fat Lambs (Exports)
  Fat Lambs (Exports)
  Cattle Imports
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  De Lorean (RUC Investigations)
  De Lorean (RUC Investigations)
THE ARTS
  Merseyside
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NATIONAL FINANCE
  Government Expenditure
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  National Debt
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  Youth Training Scheme
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  Inland Revenue (Staff)
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  Arts Donations
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  EC (Finance Ministers' Meeting)
  EC (Finance Ministers' Meeting)
  EC (Farm Budget)
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  Customs (Drug Imports)
  Customs (Drug Imports)
DEFENCE
  RAF Upper Heyford (Noise Tests)
  RAF Upper Heyford (Noise Tests)
  Aircraft Noise (North Devon)
  Aircraft Noise (North Devon)
  Japan (Prisoners of War)
  Japan (Prisoners of War)
  Ulster Defence Regiment
  Ulster Defence Regiment
  Youth Training Scheme
  Youth Training Scheme
  Radar Station, Fylingdales
  Radar Station, Fylingdales
  Alvey Programme
  Alvey Programme
  Official Secrets Act (Trial)
  Official Secrets Act (Trial)
  Ethnic Minorities
  Ethnic Minorities
  Nuclear Weapons
  Nuclear Weapons
  Defence Planning Committee
  Defence Planning Committee
  USS Iowa
  USS Iowa
  Cruise Missiles
  Cruise Missiles
  HMS Otter and Euryalus
  HMS Otter and Euryalus
  Royal Navy (Reserve Forces)
  Royal Navy (Reserve Forces)
  Maternity Leave
  Maternity Leave
  Married Service Women
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FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Hong Kong (Exhibition)
  Hong Kong (Exhibition)
  El Salvador (Refugees)
  El Salvador (Refugees)
  Irish Republic
  Irish Republic
  Disarmament
  Disarmament
EUROPEAN COMMUNITY
  Council of Ministers
  Council of Ministers
ATTORNEY-GENERAL
  Crown Prosecution Service
  Crown Prosecution Service
  Police National Computer
  Police National Computer
  Gillick v. West Norfolk and Wisbech AHA and the— DHSS
  Gillick v. West Norfolk and Wisbech AHA and the— DHSS
  Official Secrets Acts (Trial)
  Official Secrets Acts (Trial)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Youth Training Scheme
  Youth Training Scheme
  Deer
  Deer
  Veal Crates
  Veal Crates
  Nutritional Labelling
  Nutritional Labelling
  Sugar
  Sugar
  Inclement Weather (Compensation)
  Inclement Weather (Compensation)
  Paraquat
  Paraquat
  Development Awards
  Development Awards
  Intervention and Assisted Private Storage (Stocks)
  Intervention and Assisted Private Storage (Stocks)
WALES
  Inclement Weather (Compensation)
  Inclement Weather (Compensation)
  Departmental Staff
  Departmental Staff
  European Regional Development Fund
  European Regional Development Fund
  BBC (Peacock Committee)
  BBC (Peacock Committee)
  Engagements
  Engagements
  Health Authorities (Expenditure)
  Health Authorities (Expenditure)
  Labour Statistics
  Labour Statistics
  District Health Authorities
  District Health Authorities
  Dairy Producers
  Dairy Producers
  Youth Training Scheme
  Youth Training Scheme
  Gross Domestic Product
  Gross Domestic Product
  Incomes and Wages
  Incomes and Wages
  District Councils (Welsh Names)
  District Councils (Welsh Names)
  Housing Waiting Lists
  Housing Waiting Lists
  Welsh Development Agency
  Welsh Development Agency
  Felinheli Bypass
  Felinheli Bypass
ENVIRONMENT
  Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol Etc.) Act 1985
  Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol Etc.) Act 1985
  Gleneagles Agreement
  Gleneagles Agreement
  Northern Region (Rates)
  Northern Region (Rates)
  Local Authority Services
  Local Authority Services
  Local Authorities (Finance)
  Local Authorities (Finance)
  Green Belt
  Green Belt
  Peterlee Development Corporation
  Peterlee Development Corporation
  Water Authorities (Privatisation)
  Water Authorities (Privatisation)
  Urban Programme Funding
  Urban Programme Funding
  Local Authorities (Co-opted Members)
  Local Authorities (Co-opted Members)
  Falklands and Ascension Islands (Airport Construction)
  Falklands and Ascension Islands (Airport Construction)
  Sporting Events (Crowd Control)
  Sporting Events (Crowd Control)
  Country Structure Plans
  Country Structure Plans
  Housebuilding
  Housebuilding
  North of England County Councils Association
  North of England County Councils Association
  London Docklands Development
  London Docklands Development
  Housing Accommodation (Young Tenants)
  Housing Accommodation (Young Tenants)
  Water Pollution
  Water Pollution
  Thamesmead
  Thamesmead
  Long Leaseholders (Safeguards)
  Long Leaseholders (Safeguards)
  Housing Finance
  Housing Finance
  Council House Sales
  Council House Sales
  Law of Property Act 1925
  Law of Property Act 1925
  Labour Mobility
  Labour Mobility
  Watts Committee
  Watts Committee
  Local Government Act 1985
  Local Government Act 1985
  Housing Investment Programme
  Housing Investment Programme
  Joint Boards
  Joint Boards
  Urban Development Grant
  Urban Development Grant
  Rates Act 1984
  Rates Act 1984
  Scunthorpe (Derelict Land Grants)
  Scunthorpe (Derelict Land Grants)
  Football Ground Improvements
  Football Ground Improvements
  Radioactive Waste
  Radioactive Waste
  Smith Houses
  Smith Houses
  Water Supplies
  Water Supplies
  Widdicombe Committee
  Widdicombe Committee
  Beaches (Pollution)
  Beaches (Pollution)
  Housing Corporation
  Housing Corporation
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  Audit Commission
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  Housing Defects Act 1984
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  Housing Improvement Grants
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  Group of Eight
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  Local Authorities (EC Assistance)
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  Youth Training Scheme
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  Elgin and Walterton Estates
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  Local Authorities (Discrimination)
SCOTLAND
  Farm Animal Health
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  GEC Telecommunications Ltd. (Redundancies)
HOME DEPARTMENT
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  James Kay
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  Deer
  Deer
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  Youth Custody
  Convicted Prisoners (Open University Courses)
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TRANSPORT
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  M1 (Repairs)
  M1 (Repairs)
  Vehicle Safety (Fuel Tanks)
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  A40 (Improvement)
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  Heavy Goods Vehicles
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SOCIAL SERVICES
  Board and Lodging Payments
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  Population Statistics
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  Septicaemia
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  Health Authorities (Yorkshire)
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  Computerisation
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  Youth Training Scheme
  Youth Training Scheme
  Drinking Water (Bedfordshire)
  Drinking Water (Bedfordshire)
  Benefits
  Benefits
  "Community Care"
  "Community Care"
  Hospital Closures
  Hospital Closures
  Amalgam Fillings
  Amalgam Fillings
  Contraceptives (Form of Notification)
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  Disabled People (Open University Courses)
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  NHS (Private Contractors)
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  Smokers (Statistics)
  Smokers (Statistics)
  Foetal Material
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  Health Authorities (Employees)
  Health Authorities (Employees)
  Registered Homes Tribunals (Decisions)
  Registered Homes Tribunals (Decisions)
  Health Expenditure
  Health Expenditure
  Private Medical Care
  Private Medical Care
  Social Security Reform (Green Paper)
  Social Security Reform (Green Paper)
  Housing Benefit
  Housing Benefit
  High Rent Area Authorisations
  High Rent Area Authorisations
  Toxocara Canis
  Toxocara Canis
  Child Care
  Child Care
  Residential Care Homes
  Residential Care Homes
PRIME MINISTER
  NHS (Employees)
  NHS (Employees)
  Information Technology (Overseas Sales)
  Information Technology (Overseas Sales)
  European Convention on Human Rights
  European Convention on Human Rights
  Alvey Programme
  Alvey Programme
  Efficiency Scrutinies
  Efficiency Scrutinies
  Offences Against Children (Judicial Inquiry)
  Offences Against Children (Judicial Inquiry)
EMPLOYMENT
  Factory Inspectors
  Factory Inspectors
  Youth Training Scheme
  Youth Training Scheme
  Ionising Radiations Regulations
  Ionising Radiations Regulations
  Information Technology (Training and Jobs)
  Information Technology (Training and Jobs)
  Labour Statistics
  Labour Statistics
  Local Enterprise Agencies
  Local Enterprise Agencies
  Food Retailers
  Food Retailers
  Incomes
  Incomes
  Small Firms Loan Guarantee
  Small Firms Loan Guarantee

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln.

UK Food Production: Marketing Initiatives
Lord Sandys: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what new initiatives they have taken recently to improve the marketing of United Kingdom food production.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead): My Lords, through the national marketing organisation, Food from Britain, which the Government established in 1983, a number of important marketing initiatives have taken place. My right honourable friend the Minister announced recently that provided sufficient funds are forthcoming from the food and agriculture industries, the Government will make up to £2½, million available to Food from Britain in 1988–89 and the following two years. This is in addition to the £14 million provided for the organisation's first five years.
Lord Sandys: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for a very satisfactory Answer. But does he agree that the establishment of the British kite mark in the minds of the customer, both domestic and overseas, will need a sustained campaign? Can he confirm that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to see that both the domestic and the overseas markets are catered for?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I agree very much with what my noble friend says. I hope that the three-year funding guarantee, after the intitial pump priming funding of £14 million runs out in 1988, is evidence that the Government believe that. My noble friend talks about the importance of both the domestic and the export markets. It might interest the House to know that exports of food and drink from this country have risen from something over £1¼ billion in 1975 to nearly £4½, billion in 1984. I think that that is a trend which we should be determined to continue.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, those are important figures that the Minister has given and they are very encouraging. However, must we not widen the whole conception of Food from Britain into either an EC body or a national body in order to develop the process of getting rid of the enormous food surpluses that we have in this country? There are rumours that the National Farmers' Union has been trying to interest some body of that description and there has also been talk in the EC. It is important that something should be done so that we may have world-wide trade in these surpluses at an early date.
Lord Belstead: My Lords, the amount of grain being shifted out of the Community in the form of aid is quite substantial. On top of that there is Community aid, as well as national aid, which is given in cash terms. It is important for me to add in domestic terms that the Ministry, the NFU and the Food and Drink Federation, as well as Food from Britain, have joined together recently to launch a series of joint studies to explore the scope for improving market prospects for United Kingdom food production in certain specific sectors; for instance, pig meat, lamb, soft fruit, convenience salads and oats in manufacturing.
Lord Renton: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the answer he has just given indicates that we are getting the co-operation that we could hope for in the selling of British food products in the EC?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I think that it is fair to say that our effort in Europe is very effective. My noble friend may care to know that the British presence at the ANUGA World Food Fair in Cologne last month was the biggest that we have ever had, with some 80 British stands. We can sell into Europe; we are having no trouble in doing that.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, is my noble friend happy that the areas on which Food from Britain concentrates both in Europe and North America are the best ones, particularly for processed foods? Would it not be better if it had an office in the Middle East where there is a new market to be developed, rather than operating in markets that are already well established?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I understand my noble friend's concern. The markets to which he is referring are the Benelux countries, France, Germany and the United States. Those were held by Food from Britain in its budget to be the overseas markets on which it ought to concentrate. It is now for Food from Britain in the light of its future funding to decide whether it will be possible to expand further.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, will the noble Lord be giving support to dairy milk chocolate productions in the EC instead of the obnoxious name that might have to be used if we conform to regulations?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I do not always agree with the noble Baroness, but on this occasion I most cordially do.
Lord Leatherland: My Lords, is the Minster aware of the fact that many of the potatoes that we buy in the shops are thickly caked with dirt, and can something be done about that?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, a little dirt never hurt anyone.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, the noble Lord spoke of earmarking £2½, million for the purpose that he described. Can he assure the House that that will survive the Star Chamber process which I believe is on at the present time?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, my right honourable friend made a public statement which, in essence, I have repeated in my answers today.
11.11 a.m.

M.25 Motorway: Construction Defects
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the causes of the faults in the newly-opened section of the M.25 motorway from Leatherhead and whether they are satisfied that the contract for the road was adequately supervised.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness): My Lords, this contract was supervised by a leading firm of consulting engineers and the contractor's agent. Under the provisions of the contract it is for the consultants to decide what were the causes and where the responsibilities lie. That decision will be binding unless referred to arbitration by either the department or the contractor.
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply. I take it that what he is saying is that at the moment the matter is virtually sub judice, so he cannot answer my Question fully. Am I correct?
The Earl of Caithness: No, my Lords. I thought that I had answered the noble Viscount's Question; but we are awaiting the consulting engineers' decision.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, can the Minister please tell us exactly which contracting and consulting firms were involved, what public money was taken by them for the work that they undertook and what endeavours will be made to recover that public money for the taxpayer who provided it in the first place?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Lord has asked a number of supplementary questions which would provide an interesting debate in their own right. The consulting engineers for the Leatherhead-Reigate section were W. S. Atkins and Partners.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, I note that the Minister's reply was in line with that given by his honourable friend the Minister of State for Transport in a Written Answer in another place on 22nd October. Is there any connection at all with the decision to transfer work from the department's construction units to private consulting engineers? I ask that question for this reason. Is the Minister aware that in a Department of Transport press statement on 4th October it is stated:
"During road building, the Department checks on the quality of work through the consulting engineer."
In addition to the Answer that the Minister gave just now, we find that the Minister of State, in another Written Answer, given in the other place on 24th October, said:
"We are considering the curtailment of some of the independent decision-making powers of the engineer (our consultant) in future road construction contracts".
What does that mean? What independent decisions are taken of which the department is unaware?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the contract for this particular section of the motorway was one designed by the Institution of Civil Engineers, and the conditions of contract (fifth edition) provide for the appointment of an independent engineer to supervise the works. We are looking at the whole question of the role of the consulting engineer. This is under discussion at the moment.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, before we become completely absorbed in the criticism of different points, is my noble friend aware that the virtual completion of this road is one of this country's major road achievements? It confers a very great benefit on not only the whole of the private travelling public. It is very much to the Government's credit that they put this work in hand and had it completed.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I was very pleased to read some of the press articles from people in nearby local towns who were delighted when the section was opened.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, does the Minister agree that what the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, has said is absolutely true except that there is one fault in his submission? If that section of the motorway cannot be used by public transport or any other form of transport because it is unsafe and inadequate, there was no point in building it in the first place and there has been an excessive amount of money wasted. Can the noble Earl tell us which construction company built it? It is not to the credit of any Government to build a motorway that no one can use.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Lord is, of course, wrong. The section is open, traffic is using it and it is perfectly safe. The contractors started as Bovis-Birse. The Bovis section then sold out to a Mr. Farr under the terms of the contract, and this was allowed for.
Lord Broxbourne: My Lords, further to the supplementary question asked by the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, is it right that this contract was entered into under the Institution of Civil Engineers conditions of contract, and will the arbitration provisions of that contract be followed, if need be, in this case?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, that is true.

Wytch Farm Oilfield: Proposed Development
11.16 a.m.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will appoint a public inquiry before a decision is taken on the location of a BP oil terminal in Dorset.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Elton): My Lords, British Petroleum is currently seeking to establish the extent of the reserves on the Wytch Farm oilfield and the need for additional means of transporting the oil away from it. If, as a result, it wishes to install a new pipeline it will need the consent of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy, and any local planning authority can, by objection, ensure that a public inquiry is held.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Is he aware that in this area of great natural beauty there is considerable public concern about each of the four options that British Petroleum has publicised—one by rail and three by pipeline? There is concern for the amenities of the New Forest and for the seashore around Poole and Portland. Can the Minister assure the House that the conservation issue will be foremost in his mind and that of the Government when they come to make a decision?
Lord Elton: My Lords, the procedures under the Pipelines Act 1962 provide, as I said, for a public inquiry. If any of the local authorities wish one to take place they have merely to object to what is proposed. I suggest that that will be for the forum in which these concerns should properly be brought forward.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that whatever form the terminal takes, new work generates new jobs?
Lord Elton: My Lords, yes.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, is it not the case that, to the relief of many of us who have been working on the matter for so many years, the Council of the European Economic Community has recently passed a directive on environment impact assessment? Is not this pre-eminently the kind of project that will be covered by that directive, in which case there will be a compulsory need for an environment impact assessment before this scheme or any scheme like it is allowed to go ahead?
Lord Elton: My Lords, until the extent of the reserves is proved it really would be premature to say what impact, if any, there may be on the environment; but I accept that if they are extensive there may be an impact, and that must be considered.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister recall the words of his noble predecessor on 23rd October last year when he said, in relation to oil and gas exploration, which we were discussing at the time, that,
"such choices are best made by those elected by the communities most affected"?—[Official Report, 23/10/84; col. 190.]
He went on to say that this was Government policy. If the noble Lord the Minister can confirm that this is still Government policy it would go a long way, I think, to meet the worries that are being expressed from the Benches here.
Lord Elton: My Lords, I must frankly say that I do not recall the sentence, and as I do not have the
1558
context I should not comment except to say that my noble friend was almost invariably right. As to the process that I have described, it is the elected bodies which are invited to object and precipitate a public inquiry.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, I am sorry to return to the noble Lord, but he did not really answer me adequately. Is it not important to reassure the people of an area such as this that this kind of protect is pre-eminently one that is covered by the new EC directive and that they should therefore feel assured that the procedure set out in that directive, involving a full environment impact assessment, will be followed before there is any question of allowing the kind of development that is the subject of the Question?
Lord Elton: My Lords, I can certainly confirm that Her Majesty's Government have a very close concern and are anxious to emphasise their concern for environment impact. This will certainly be kept in the forefront of our minds.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, while not taking any side on the various options that have been put forward, will the noble Lord agree that although we all want to see employment increased in areas like this, employment can also be lost if the environment is damaged, as well as gained through commercial enterprises? Will he assure the House that in any public inquiry local opinion will be given full weight rather than, as has been the case in some previous instances, the power of large multinational companies used to influence a public inquiry and the Minister who eventually makes a decision?
Lord Elton: My Lords, I can certainly undertake on behalf of my right honourable friend that he will give full and proper weight to all the representations made to him.

British Telecom: Multiple Share Applications
11.22 a.m.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state what action is proposed under Section 15 of the Theft Act 1968 in respect of multiple share applications for shares in British Telecom plc on the occasion of the company's November 1984 offer.
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, the institution of criminal proceedings is a matter for the Law Officers in their capacity as such and not for Her Majesty's Government.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that there have been allegations—I use the term "allegations" advisedly—that on the issue of shares in British Telecom to the

1559
public there were multiple applications? There are further allegations—I emphasise once again the term "allegations"—that some stockbroking firms, instead of allotting shares that they were supposed to allot to their smaller clients, in fact allotted them to their partners. In those circumstances, should not the Government take some action about the matter? Is it or is it not the case that these matters are within the purview of the Stock Exchange itself and that in these circumstances, and with these allegations remaining unresolved after 11 months, it hardly reflects a good backdrop against which Government legislation for deregulation of the Stock Exchange would be introduced in this House?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I rather deprecate the use of tendentious language that might sully or pollute the fountain of justice when it begins to flow.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, does not the form of this Question betray a total misconception of the constitutional role of Government?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, that is what I was trying delicately to imply.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord will elaborate that somewhat portentous intervention. Who is sullying what fountain and what justice?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, the fountain of justice is Her Majesty the Queen by her courts. If one makes tendentious remarks when proceedings may or may not be about to take place, one pollutes the fountain at its source.
Lord Wigoder: My Lords, on the practice alleged, is it not a very nice point whether it could amount to a breach of the criminal law?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, that is precisely no doubt what the Law Officers are considering.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that I am not conscious of having made any tendentious remarks at all and that in fact these matters have been the subject of public discussion in all sections of the press over the last six months? All that I was doing was seeking to obtain further information. Will the noble and learned Lord bear in mind that the exercise of his judicial rebuke on such occasions as this may, on occasion, be excessive?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I do not think that my judicial rebukes are ever other than extremely moderate.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord agree that, since the good name of the City of London is involved in these matters, it is of some importance, in view of the pending deregulation of the financial institutions, that this matter be clarified as early as possible?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I understand that it is likely to be so.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord in a position to say when it is likely to be so? Is it not the case that this matter has been hanging on for 11 months? Is that not far too long?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, a very large number of applications was received—several million. What had to be done was to inquire first of all of the banks as to the analysis of the applications that they had received, then for the banks to pool their information and then for those to whom the inquiry was delegated to see whether any of these bore any traces of impropriety. That has now been done and the Law Officers will no doubt come to their decision in due course.

Housing Bill [H.L.]
11.27 a.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be considered forthwith. In saying this, may I point out that all the Bills—the Housing Bill, the Housing Associations Bill, the Housing (Consequential Provisions) Bill and the Landlord and Tenant Bill—are consolidation measures? Although the amendments are numerous, I shall be explaining them briefly if this Motion is passed.
Moved, That the Commons amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.),
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[References are to [Bill 197] as first printed for the Commons]
1 Clause 4, page 2, leave out lines 27 to 30 and insert— ("(e), "local authority" means a county, district or London borough council, the Common Council of the City of London or the Council of the Isles of Scilly, and in sections 45(2)(b), 50(2), 51(6), 80(1), 157(1), 171(2). 438, 441, 442, 443, 444(4), 452(2), 453(2), 573(1), paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 2, grounds 7 and 12 in Schedule 3, ground 5 in Schedule 4, paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 5, paragraph 5(l)(b) of Schedule 6 and Schedule 17 includes the Inner London Education Authority and a joint authority established by Part IV of the Local Government Act 1985.").
2 Leave out Clause 7.
3 Leave out Clause 9.
4 After Clause 16, insert the following new clause:
("Additional powers of authorities in London.
—(1) A London borough council may provide and maintain, in connection with housing accommodation provided by them under this Part buildings or parts of buildings adapted for use for any commercial purpose.
(2) A local housing authority in Greater London may make arrangements for the rehousing of any person by another such authority; and the arrangements may include provision for the payment of contributions by the former authority to the latter.
(3) The council of an Inner London borough and the Common Council of the City of London may, for the purpose of facilitating the erection of houses in their district, suspend, alter or relax the provisions of any enactment or byelaw relating to the formation or laying out of new streets or the construction of sewers or of buildings intended for human habitation.
(4) The powers conferred by subsections (1) and (3) are exercisable only with the consent of the Secretary of State.").
5 Insert the following new clause:
("Exercise of powers outside Greater London.
—(1) A local housing authority in Greater London shall not exercise any powers under this Part outside Greater London unless it appears to the Secretary of State, on an application by the authority, expedient that the needs of the authority's district with respect to the provision of housing accommodation should be satisfied by the provision of such accommodation outside Greater London, and he consents to the exercise of the power.
(2) The power conferred by section (Additional powers of authorities in London), (1) (provision of commercial buildings) shall not be exercised outside Greater London except with the consent of the council of the district concerned.").
6 Clause 17, page 7, line 2, after ("14"), insert ("and (Additional powers of authorities in London), (1)").
7 Page 7, line 18, after ("authorised"), insert ("to acquire land compulsorily").
8 Clause 44, page 19, line 28, leave out ("given by section 9") and insert ("applicable by virtue of the definition of "housing accommodation" in section 56").
9 Clause 45, page 20, line 12, at end insert—
("(3) The following provisions—
section 170 (power of Secretary of State to give assistance in connection with legal proceedings), and
section 181 (jurisdiction of county court), apply to proceedings and questions arising under this section and sections 46 to 51 as they apply to proceedings and questions arising under Part V (the right to buy).").
10 Page 22, line 8, leave out ("dwelling-house") and insert ("house").
11 Clause 56, page 25, line 6, at end insert—
("housing accommodation" includes flats, lodging-houses and hostels, and "house" shall be similarly construed;").
12 Clause 57, page 25, leave out lines 33 and 34 and insert—

("house

section 56

housing accommodation

section 56").

13 Page 25. line 37, at end insert—

("lease

section 621 ").

14 Page 26, line 3, at end insert ("(and see section 452(3))").
15 Page 26, line 10, at end insert—

("tenancy and tenant

section 621").

16 Clause 70. page 34, line 29, at end insert—
(" (8) References in this section to personal property of the applicant include personal property of any person who might reasonably be expected to reside with him.").
17 Clause 80. page 39, leave out lines 15 and 16 and insert ("a local authority").
18 Clause 154, page 81, line 2, leave out ("granted for a term of which not more than 21 years are unexpired") and insert ("a lease for term of which not more than 21 years are unexpired or, as the case may be, a lease granted for a term not exceeding 21 years").
19 Clause 173, page 93, line 41, leave out ("the 1967 Act") and insert ("the Leasehold Reform Act 1967").
20 Page 101, line 37, column 2, at end insert ("(and see section 452(3))").
21 Clause 208, page 109, line 42, leave out ("cost") and insert ("expense").
22 Clause 263, page 144, line 34, after ("dwelling") insert ("(in provisions relating to housing action areas)").
23 Page 144, line 40, after ("lease"), insert (", lessee and lessor").
24 Page 144, line 48, at end insert—

("tenancy and tenant

section 621").

25 Clause 294, page 160, line 19, leave out from ("prescribed") to ("before") in line 20 and insert ("and if objection to the order is made to the Secretary of State").
26 Clause 323, page 176, line 5, at beginning insert ("lease,").
27 Page 176, line 12, at end insert—

("prescribed

section 614

reasonable expense

section 321").

28 Clause 336, page 182, line 4. leave out ("house") and insert ("dwelling").
29 Clause 337, page 182, line 17, leave out ("house") and insert ("dwelling").
30 Clause 342, page 183, line 35, leave out ("house") and insert ("dwelling").
31 Page 183, line 36, leave out ("house") and insert ("dwelling").
32 Clause 353, page 191, line 17, leave out ("(b)"), and insert ("(c)").,
33 Clause 358, page 194, line 21, leave out ("house") and insert ("premises").
34 Page 194. line 30. leave out ("1") and insert ("4").
35 Clause 400, page 219, line 33, at end insert—

("tenant

section 621").

36 Clause 434, page 234, line 30, at end insert—

("housing authority

section 4(a)").

37 Clause 459, page 249, line 2, at end insert—

("first time purchaser

section 449(2)(d)").

38 Page 249, line 16, at end insert—

("recognised body

section 444(1)

recognised lending institution

section 447

recognised savings institution

section 448").

39 Clause 463, page 251, line 16, after ("until") insert ("they are satisfied that").
40 Clause 526, page 284, line 34, at end insert—

("general improvement area

section 253").

41 Page 284, line 36, at end insert—

("housing action area

section 239").

42 Page 285, line 10, at end insert—

("tenancy and tenant

section 621").

43 Clause 531, page 287, line 23, leave out ("527(1)(c)") and insert ("527(d)").,
44 Clause 603, page 330, line 35, at end insert—

("closing order

section 267(1),

demolition order (generally)

section 267(1)

(in Schedules 24 and 25)

section 588(2)").

45 Clause 614, page 335, line 24, leave out from ("prescribed") to end of line 25 and insert ("or").
46 Page 335, line 31, at end insert—
("(3) The power conferred by this section is not exercisable where specific provision for prescribing a thing, or the form of a document, is made elsewhere.").
47 Clause 619, page 337, line 37, leave out ("section 82 of the London Government Act 1963") and insert ("section 94 of the Local Government Act 1985").
48 Clause 622, page 339, line 5, leave out ("the Greater London Council or").
49 Clause 625, page 340, line 46, leave out ("1st January") and insert ("1st April").
50 Leave out Schedule 1.
51 Schedule 11, page 379, line 36, leave out ("notice or") and insert ("demand or copy, or of the").
52 Schedule 15, page 406, line 43, leave out ("paragraph 12 of Schedule 1") and insert ("section 23(3) of the London Government Act 1963 (orders transferring land held by London borough council or Common Council of City of London)").
53 Page 407, line 9. leave out ("paragraph 12 of Schedule 1") and insert ("section 23(3) of the London Government Act 1963").
54 Schedule 16, page 408, line 20, leave out from ("with") to end of line 21 and insert ("the following provisions of this paragraph").
55 Page 408, line 30, at end insert—
("2A) The limit referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(b) is in the case of a condition imposed before 8th December 1965—

(a) if the tenancy is a regulated tenancy (other than a converted tenancy within the meaning of Schedule 17 to the Rent Act 1977), the rent which would be recoverable if the tenancy had been converted from being a controlled tenancy on the commencement of section 64 of the Housing Act 1980 and accordingly as if it were a converted tenancy;

(b) if the tenancy is a converted tenancy, or a housing association tenancy within the meaning of Part VI of the Rent Act 1977, the rent recoverable under that Act;

(c) if the tenancy is a protected occupancy or statutory tenancy within the meaning of the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976, the rent recoverable in accordance with that Act;

(d) in any other case, such rent as may from time to time be, or have been, agreed between the landlord and the local housing authority or as may, in default of agreement, be or have been determined by the Secretary of State.

(2B) The limit referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(b), is in the case of a condition imposed on or after 8th December 1965 such rent as the local housing authority may from time to time determine as being in their opinion the rent which would have been appropriate for them to charge if the house had been provided by them.").
56 Schedule 17, page 413, leave out line 34 and insert—
("(b), for other sums left outstanding, the county fund in the case of a county council and the general rate fund or general fund in any other case.").
57 Schedule 21, page 424, line 5, after ("Part") insert ("of this Act").
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I shall have to move the Motion separately in relation to each of the four Bills. If, however, I may speak now generally on the Motion that the House do agree with the Commons in their amendments to the Housing Bill, the amendments to all four Bills are of two kinds. The first arise from the Local Government Act 1985, which was not enacted when the consolidation took place. The second are numerous minor drafting corrections and improvements. The important point is that all have been seen and approved by the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills and have been agreed with the other place. With your Lordships' permission, I should like to move all the amendments to the Housing Bill, the first of the four Bills, en bloc. If there is no objection, I shall do the same successively with the other Bills.
I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 57 en bloc.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 57.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, what the noble and learned Lord has proposed seems to me to be excellent good sense.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Housing Associations Bill [H.L.]
11.30 a.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[References are to [Bill 198] as first printed by the Commons]
1 Clause 10, page 6, line 28, leave out second ("2") and insert ("3").
2 Clause 15, page 9, line 3, leave out ("co-operative") and insert ("fully mutual").
3 Clause 18, page 11, line 2, after ("of), insert ("committee member or").
4 Clause 45, page 23, line 32, leave out ("6") and insert ("5").
5 Clause 52, page 28, line 1, leave out ("9") and insert ("8").
6 Clause 81, page 44, line 14, leave out ("9") and insert ("8").
7 Clause 101, page 55, line 5, after ("a") insert ("building").
8 Clause 104, page 56, line 6, leave out from ("1985") to ("and") in line 8.
9 Clause 106, page 57, leave out lines 27 and 28 and insert ("sections 84(5) and 85(4) includes the Inner London Education Authority and a joint authority established by Part IV of the Local Government Act 1985").
10 Clause 107, page 59, line 8, leave out ("January") and insert ("April").
11 Schedule 1, page 61, line 15, at end insert—
("section 119 of the Housing Act 1957, section 152 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1966,").
12 Page 61, line 20, at end insert—
("section 47 of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act 1958,
section 78 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1950,
section 24 of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland Act 1968,").
13 Page 61, line 26, after '1961', 'insert—
("section 11 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1962,").
14 Schedule 2. page 62, line 4, leave out ("first disposal") and insert ("conveyance, grant or assignment,").
15 Schedule 5. page 72. line 3, leave out from ("to") to end of line 4 and insert ("the financial year 1986–87 and subsequent financial years").
16 Page 75, line 3. leave out from ("to") to end of line 4 and insert ("the financial year 1986–87 and subsequent financial years.").
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 16 en bloc.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 16.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Landlord and Tenant Bill [h.l.]
11.31 a.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[References are to Bill [200] as first printed by the Commons],
1 Clause 38, page 21, line 22, leave out 'the Greater London Council,'.
2 Page 21, line 24, at end insert 'and in sections 14(4), 26(1) and 28(6) includes the Inner London Education Authority and a joint authority established by Part IV of the Local Government Act 1985'.
3 Page 21, line 25, leave out from 'the' to end of line 27 and insert 'meaning given by section 1 of the Housing Act 1985'.
4 Clause 40, page 22, line 48, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 4 en bloc,
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 4 en bloc.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Housing (Consequential Provisions) Bill [H.L.]
11.32 a.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[References are to [Bill 199] as first printed for the Commons]
1 Clause 3, page 2, line 26, leave out '16, 19 or 20' and insert '15,18 or 19'.
2 Clause 6, page 3, line 3, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
3 Page 3, line 8, after ' 13', insert ' 14A'.
4 Page 3, line 9, leave out 'and 51 to 57' and insert '49A, 51 to 57 and 58A'.
5 Page 3, line 9, at end insert 'and 58B'.
6 Page 3, line 15, leave out '25 to 31' and insert '25 to 29, 31'.
7 Page 3, line 21, leave out '30'.
8 Schedule 1, page 4, line 47, column 3, leave out 'Sections 21 to 23' and insert 'Section 21'.
9 Page 1, line 7. leave out lines 18 and 19.
10 Page 7, line 28. column 3, leave out '118(1)' and insert '118'
11 Page 7, line 28. column 3, at end insert 'Section 145'.
12 Page 8, line 9, column 3, leave out 'in'.
13 Page 10, line 5, at end insert—

'1985 C.51.

Local Government Act 1985

In Schedule 8, paragraphs 12(1) and (3) to (5) and 14(3).

In Schedule 13, in paragraph 21, the words "and section 80(l)(c) of the Housing Act 1980".

In Schedule 14, paragraphs 58(a) to (d) and (f) to (h), 64 and 65.'.

14 Page 10, line 39 at end insert—

'1975 c.45.

Finance (No.2) Act 1975.

In section 69(3)(e), the words "housing society".

In section 71(3), the wordsfrom"' housing society'"to "1964"'.

15 page 12, line 18, at beginning insert—

'1975 c.45.

Finance (No.2) Act 1975.

In section 69(3)(e), the words 'housing society".

In section 71(3), the words from "housing society' " to '1964" '.

16 Schedule 2, page 12, line 41, leave out 'the Greater London Council'.
17 Page 13, leave out lines 25 to 29 and insert—
'(a) in paragraph 2(l)(a)(i) (standard of alternative accommodation) for "the local authority for the purposes of Part V of the Housing Act 1936" substitute "the local housing authority within the meaning of the Housing Act 1985" and after "or as the case may be" insert "the local authority".'
18 Page 13, line 33, leave out 'under Part II of and insert 'within the meaning of'.
19 Schedule 2, page 13, line 44, leave out '25' and insert '24'.
20 Page 14, leave out lines 46 to 48.
21 Page 15, line 40, leave out '24 and 25' and insert '23 and 24'.
22 Page 16, line 16, leave out '24' and insert '23'.
23 Page 16, line 20, leave out '24' and insert '23'.
24 Page 16, line 21, leave out '23' and insert '22'.
25 Page 16, line 25, leave out '24' and insert '23'.
26 Page 16, line 29, leave out '25' and insert '24'.
27 Page 16, line 37, leave out 'deposits' and insert 'loans to or deposits'.
28 Page 18, line 42, leave out paragraph 8.
29 Page 20, line 21, at end insert—
'Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1967 (c.xx)
14A. In section 15 of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1967 (application of provisions of Compulsory Purchase Act 1965 to acquisition by agreement of land for certain housing purposes), in subsection (I) for "Part V of the Act of 1957", in both places where it occurs, and for "the said Part V", substitute "Part II of the Housing Act 1985".'.
30 Page 22, line 5, leave out '10' and insert '8'.
31 Page 24, line 19, leave out '25' and insert '24'.
32 Page 24, leave out lines 33 to 48 and insert—
' "(7) Subject to subsection (8) below, the 'relevant authority' for the purposes of this section is the local housing authority within the meaning of the Housing Act 1985.".'.
33 Page 25, line 42, leave out '25' and insert '24'.
34 Page 26, line 44, at end insert—
'Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1975 (c xxx) 29A.—(1) Section 7 of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1975 (byelaws as to parking, &c on housing estates) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1) (extension of power to make byelaws)—

(a) for "subsection (1) of section 112 of the Housing Act 1957" substitute "section 23(1) of the Housing Act 1985", and

(b) for "Part V" substitute "Part II".

(3) In subsection (2) (extension of ancillary provisions) for "the said section 112" substitute "section 23(1) of the Housing Act 1985".'.
35 Page 27, leave out lines 1 to 28.
36 Page 28, line 6, leave out from 'of' to end of line 13 and insert 'the Housing Act 1985'.
37 Page 28, line 37, leave out from first 'of' to end of line 40 and insert 'the Housing Act 1985'.
38 Page 29, line 12, leave out from first 'of' to end of line 13 and insert 'the Housing Act 1985'.
39 Page 29. line 33, at end insert—

'(c) for the words from "(which impose" to "houses)" substitute "which imposes a rent limit in respect of the dwelling-house".'.

40 Page 30, line 3, leave out 'part' and insert 'Act'.
41 Page 30, line 5, leave out from 'for' to end of line and insert ' "local authority under section 82(1) of the Housing Act 1974" substitute "local housing authority under'.
42 Page 30, leave out lines 7 to 20.
43 Page 30, line 27, leave out from beginning to end of line 37 and insert—

'(a) for "housing authority" wherever occurring substitute "local housing authority";

(b) in paragraph 6 (overcrowding) for "the Housing Act 1957" substitute "Part X of the Housing Act 1985";

(c) for paragraph 8 (meaning of "housing authority" and "district") substitute—

"8. In this Part 'local housing authority' and 'district' in relation to such an authority have the same meaning as in the Housing Act 1985.".'.
44 Page 31, line 1, leave out from "the" to end of line 8 and insert "same meaning as in the Housing Act 1985".
45 Page 32. line 34, leave out from first "of" to "towards" in line 35 and insert "the Housing Act 1985".
46 Page 33, line 4, leave out "section 1 of"
47 Page 34, line 18, leave out from "of" to end of line 19 and insert "the Housing Act 1985".
48 Page 36, line 19, leave out from "of" to end of line 20 and insert "the Housing Act 1985".
49 Page 36, line 31, leave out "15" and insert "14".
50 Page 36, line 37, at end insert—
'Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1981 (c.xvii)
49A.—(1) Part IV of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1981 (control of overcrowding in certain hostels) is amended as follows.
(2) In section 9(1) (overcrowding notices), in the proviso (cases where similar restrictions are in force), for the words from "applied" to the end substitute "for the time being applied to the premises by a registration scheme under section 346 of the Housing Act 1985, a direction under section 354 of that Act, or an overcrowding notice under section 358 of that Act".
(3) In section 12(1) (penalties), in the proviso (exclusion where a person previously convicted under other similar provisions), for the words from "section 90(13)" to the end substitute "section 35 5(2) or 3 5 8(4) of the Housing Act 1985".
(4) In section 16 (premises exempted from controls)—
(a) in paragraph (e) (registered common lodging houses), for "section 238 of the Act of 1936" substitute "Part XII of the Housing Act 1985";
(b) in paragraph(l) (premises run by registered housing associations), for Part II of the Housing Act 1974" substitute "the Housing Associations Act 1985".".
51 Page 38, line 7, leave out 'or the Greater London Council'.
52 Page 38, line 8, leave out 'authority orCouncil's' and insert 'authority's'.
53 Page 38, line 14, leave out 'or Council'.
54 Page 38, line 19, leave out paragraph 53.
55 Page 38, line 44, at end insert—
'Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1982 (c.i.)
54A. In section 4 of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1982 (removal of vehicles illegally parked on housing estates)
(a) in subsection (1) for the words from "subsection (1)" to "Housing Act 1957" substitute "section 23(1) of the Housing Act 1985 (byelaws for regulation of authority's houses)";
(b) in the same subsection for "Part V of the said Act of 1957" substitute "Part II of the Housing Act 1985";
(c) in subsection (2) for "the said section 112" substitute "section 23(1) of the Housing Act 1985".'.
56 Page 40, line 12, at end insert—
'Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1984 (c.xxvii)
58A.—(1) The Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1984 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 10 (registration of certain sleeping accommodation: buildings to which the provisions apply), in subsection (2) (exceptions)—
(a) in paragraph (h) (premises run by registered housing association), for "Part II of the Housing Act 1974" substitute "the Housing Associations Act 1985";
(b) in paragraph (m) (registered common lodging houses), for "section 238 of the Public Health Act 1936" substitute "Part XII of the Housing Act 1985".
(3) In section 39 (occupants removed from buildings to have priority housing need), for "the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977" substitute "Part III of the Housing Act 1985 (housing the homeless)".'.
57 Page 40, line 12, at end insert—
'Local Government Act 1985 (c.51)
58B. In Schedule 13 to the Local Government Act 1985 (provisions with respect to residuary bodies) for paragraphs 22 and 23 (application of certain housing enactments) substitute—
"22. A residuary body shall be treated as a local authority for the purposes of the following provisions of the Housing Act 1985—
sections 43 and 44 (consent required for certain disposals of houses),
sections 45 to 51 (restrictions on recovery of service charges after disposal of house),
Parts IV and V (secure tenancies and the right to buy),
sections 442 (so far as relates to agreements within subsection (1)(b)), 443, 444, 452 and 453 (provision in connection with local authority mortgages), and
Part XVI (assistance for owners of defective premises disposed of by local authorities and others).
23. A residuary body shall be treated as a local authority for the purposes of sections 84(5)(b) and 85(4) of the Housing Associations Act 1985 (consultation on forms of agreement and meaning of "relevant advance").
24. A residuary body shall be treated as a local authority for the purposes of the following provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985—
section 14(4) (exclusion of implied repairing obligation), and
sections 18 to 30 (service charges).".'.
58 Schedule 3, page 40, line 41, column 2, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
59 Page 40, line 42, column 1, after '427', insert 'of that Act'.
60 Page 40, line 42, column 2, leave out '1985–86' and insert '1986–87'.
61 Page 41, line 6, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
62 Page 41, line 12, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
63 Page 41, line 13, at end insert—
'Commencement of the Local Government Act 1985 (c.51)
5.—(1) The consolidating Acts and the Local Government Act 1985 shall be construed and have effect as if the consolidating Acts had come into force immediately after that Act.
(2) References to a local authority in provisions of the consolidating Acts which confer powers, duties, rights or immunities by reference to things done by or in relation to a local authority before 1st April 1986 include references to the councils abolished by the Local Government Act 1985.
(3) Sub-paragraph (2) applies in particular to the following provisions—
section 45(2)(b) of the Housing Act 1985 (restriction on service charges payable after disposal of house by local authority),
section 444(4) of that Act and section 85(4) of the Housing Associations Act 1985 (power to agree to indemnify mortgagee of property disposed of by local authority),
section 573(1) of the Housing Act 1985 (definition of public sector authority for the purposes of assistance for persons having acquired defective housing from such an authority),
paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 4 to that Act (public sector landlords for purposes of qualifying period for the right to buy),
section 41(2) of the Housing Associations Act 1985 (approval of programme for purposes of housing association grant), and
section 14(4) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 (exclusion of implied repairing obligation in case of lease granted by local authority.'.
64 Page 42. line 31, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
65 Page 42, line 36, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
66 Page 42, line 40, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
67 Page 45, line 38, leave out 'January' and insert 'April'.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 67 en bloc.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 67—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Weights and Measures Bill [H.L.]
11.33 a.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendment be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendment be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
[Reference is to Bill [206] as first printed for the Commons],
Clause 23, page 25, line 25, leave out "this section" and insert "section 21 or 22 above".
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, this amendment corrects a mistake. It has been seen by the chairman of the Joint Committee. I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in the said amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, I congratulate the noble and learned Lord on this end-of-term sweeping up operation.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord. It always rather flusters me.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Scotland Bill
11.34 a.m.
The Lord Advocate (Lord Cameron of Lochbroom): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords amendments be now considerd.
Moved, That the Commons reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords amendments be now considered.—(Lord Cameron of Lochbroom.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS REASONS FOR DISAGREEING TO CERTAIN OF THE LORDS AMENDMENTS
References are to Bill (164) as first printed by the Lords. The Commons Reasons are printed in italics.

LORDS AMENDMENT
1 Clause 59, page 41, line 9, after ("54") insert ("and (Amendments of certain controls in relation to the provision of pharmaceutical services)").
The Commons disagreed to the above amendment for the following reason:
2 Because the words inserted by the Amendment do not relate to any Clause in the Bill.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do not insist on their Amendment No. 1, to which the Commons have disagreed for Reason No. 2. It will be for the convenience of the House if I may deal also with Amendments Nos. 3 and 5.

LORDS AMENDMENTS
3 In the title, line 5, leave out ("and").
The Commons disagreed to the above amendment for the following reason:
4 Because the sole purpose of the Amendment is a paving amendment for Lords Amendment No. 5.
5 Line 5, after ("stocks") insert ("and the control of pharmaceutical services").
The Commons disagreed to the above amendment for the following reason:
6 Because the Amendment inserts words in the Title which does not relate to any provision in the Bill.
All three amendments were consequential to the clause on pharmaceutical services which was deleted from the Bill by your Lordships' House at Third Reading. Therefore they no longer serve any purpose and should be dropped from the Bill.
Moved, That this House do not insist on the said Amendment No. 1, to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason No. 2—(Lord Cameron of Lochbroom.)
Lord Ross of Marnock: My Lords, I think that it is only right to express appreciation for the Government's action and the action in the Commons in respect of these changes that were consequential on an amendment that I moved on Third Reading. It shows that the Government accept the will of this House.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, I should like to congratulate the Government on accepting this very wise amendment and also to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, for keeping an eye on the intricacies of this miscellaneous Bill and helping us to arrive at sensible decisions.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT
3 [Printed above.]
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I beg to move formally that this House do not insist on their Amendment No. 3, to which the Commons have disagreed for Reason No. 4. I have already spoken to this.
Moved, That this House do not insist on the said Amendment No. 3, to which the Commons have disagreed for Reason No. 4.—(Lord Cameron of Lochbroom.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT
5 [Printed above.]
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, I beg to move formally that this House do not insist on their Amendment No. 5, to which the Commons have disagreed for Reason No. 6. Again, I have spoken to this.
Moved, That this House do not insist on their Amendment No. 5, to which the Commons have disagreed for Reason No. 6.—(Lord Cameron of Lochbroom.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation) Order 1985
11.35 a.m.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 17th July be approved. [30 th Report from the Joint Committee.],
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move that the European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation) Order 1985 be approved. With the leave of the House, I shall at the same time speak also to the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation (Immunities and Privileges) Order 1985.
Fisheries conservation is a subject on which many of your Lordships have firm views. It was in order to conserve stocks of salmon in the North Atlantic Ocean that the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation—known as NASCO—was established by convention which was opened for signature at Reykjavik on the 2nd March 1982. NASCO aims to contribute to the conservation, restoration and rational management of salmon stocks in the North Atlantic, with the aid of the best available scientific information.
The Government welcomed the establishment of the organisation as a significant development in the management of salmon stocks in the high seas, thus having a beneficial effect on salmon stocks in our rivers. We have a strong interest in restricting as far as possible catches of salmon originating from our rivers, but caught in the waters of the Faroe Islands and Greenland where they feed—that is to say, the so-called intercepting fisheries. We hope therefore that the convention, through NASCO, will enable these fisheries to be carefully managed and preserved.
The headquarters of the organisation is in Edinburgh. Its location there was welcomed by the Government: not only for the benefit to the local economy from holding meetings there, but also as a recognition of the importance to the United Kingdom as a whole of salmon fishing as a commercial and recreational resource, particularly in remote areas like the Scottish highlands where it is so important to the tourist industry. We believe, therefore, that it is highly appropriate that the headquarters is located in Scotland. It is in fact the first inter-governmental organisation to be based in Scotland.
The NASCO Convention entered into force on the 1st October 1983. The EC is a party to the convention and a member of the organisation, together with Canada. Denmark (in respect of Greenland and the Faroe Islands), Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden and the United States. The headquarters agreement with the organisation, which implements Article 3 of the convention, was signed on the 26th April at their new offices in Rutland Square, Edinburgh. It will enter into force when the necessary legislation is in place; in other words, once the two draft orders now under consideration have been made.
The convention is a Community treaty for the purposes of the European Communities Act 1972, because the EC is a party to it. We propose that the draft order before your Lordships relating to the definition of treaties—should be made under Section 1(3) of the 1972 Act specifying the headquarters agreement as a Community treaty. This order provides the basis for the second order—that relating to NASCO's immunities and privileges as provided by the headquarters agreement. The second order will be made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act.
The NASCO Headquarters Agreement implements Article 3 of the convention by specifying the privileges and immunities the organisation is to enjoy in the United Kingdom. We do of course have headquarters agreements with other international organisations in the United Kingdom. For example, the International Tin Council, the International Lead and Zinc Study Group and the Commonwealth Foundation. The principal privileges and immunities to be conferred are, first, for NASCO itself: legal capacity; inviolability of archives; exemption from taxes on income and capital gains; the same rating relief as is accorded to a diplomatic mission; relief from car tax and VAT; exemption from import duties.
Secondly, for the representatives of parties, the principal privileges and immunities will be: immunity from suit and legal process in respect of their official acts; inviolability for official papers and documents. Thirdly, for staff members of NASCO, the principal privileges and immunities will be: immunity from suit and legal process in respect of their official acts; exemption from income tax; "first arrival" Customs privileges; exemption from social security legislation. These are conferred on the strict basis of functional necessity. Your Lordships will note that nobody is given the full immunity from jurisdiction of a diplomatic agent. I point out that NASCO currently employs only two staff members and both are permanently resident in the United Kingdom.
I believe that NASCO will protect a valuable and vulnerable resource. Many of your Lordships will no doubt agree that the disappearance of the salmon from our rivers would represent an irreparable loss; not only in terms of wildlife conservation, important though that is; but also for the incalculable effect it would have on commercial salmon fisheries and on tourism in the remotest parts of the land where the local people rely ever more heavily on incomes earned during the tourist season. Remove the fish from the rivers and you remove the fishermen and the seasonal incomes they generate. I therefore hope that your Lordships will support the draft orders. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation) Order 1985, laid before the House on 17th July, be approved. [30th Report from the Joint Committee.]—(Baroness Young.)
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, I am deeply honoured to follow the noble Baroness. The moment that the Whips see the word "fish", or the word "salmon" on the Order Paper, they simply attach my name to the business. When I pointed out to my noble friend Lord Cledwyn that this was really a Foreign Office matter, he said that he felt sure that I was perfectly capable of dealing with it and he gave me yet another honour—the honour of taking his place. Indeed, my noble friend apologises for not being here.
As the noble Baroness has said, these orders are about diplomatic immunity for an EC body situated in this country. The Minister who introduced the orders in another place described himself as a "simple Foreign Office Minister". He admired the expertise of his fellow Members in the other House for turning a couple of simple orders into a wide-ranging two-and-
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a-half hour debate on salmon fishing and salmon fishing policy.
Salmon fishing is a very important subject to many areas of this country. I do not know whether or not noble Lords want to follow the example of the other place, especially as we have almost reached the end of the Session and are about to start a week's recess. However, as the noble Baroness has said, there is no doubt that the number of salmon in our rivers is decreasing to a tremendous extent. Many figures have been quoted over the past few years about the decrease which has affected an enormous number of people. There is no question that something should be done about it. Many things have been blamed for it. For example—as the noble Baroness said—the overfishing of the stocks in Greenland and the Faeroe Islands. However, there has been an arrangement made with Greenland to reduce their fishing. There is some feeling on the Borders: the Northumberland net fishermen are being blamed for keeping the fish from going up into the Scottish rivers. There is also the question of illegal fishing with different nets, and so on. It is a very complicated subject and I am not surprised that the "simple Foreign Office Minister" who spoke in the debate in the other place was rather confused or, as he put it, out of his depth.
All I hope is that this apparently new body will help to correct the situation. Salmon fishing is no longer for the few; everybody in Scotland has a "go" at salmon fishing. It has a tremendous effect upon the tourist trade, hotels and restaurants. There is no question that this organisation will be welcomed in Edinburgh. Indeed, it is a good start to place it there, although I gather that the staff will number two and so I do not think that they will make a large difference to the economic situation in Edinburgh. Nevertheless, I hope that we shall give it a fair start.
11.45 a.m.
I turn to the provisions of the orders. I suppose that there must be the same diplomatic immunities as are enjoyed by other bodies. However, the second order refers to all the various immunities which are necessary for "official activities". There is a great deal of feeling throughout the country about the immunities which diplomats enjoy, particularly car parking, and so on. I wonder whether duty-free whisky and duty-free wine are necessary for their "official activities". If that is the case, then I wonder whether noble Lords feel that it would help our official activities if we had duty-free whisky. In my view immunity must, at some time, be reviewed. Nevertheless, we shall agree to these orders and give them our blessing with the strictures to which I have referred.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, I rise to follow my noble kinsman. I should like to hear the comments of the noble Baroness on the internal divisions in the salmon fishing industry. It is a fact that in Scotland at any rate the rod fishermen blame the netters as much as they blame the Danes. Certainly an enormous number of netting stations on, for example, the River Tay, have been recently re-activated. I do not think that every one can have a "go" at the wild salmon in our rivers without regulation. The regulation is left to

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the river boards. I wonder whether NASCO will take an interest in the actual conduct of both types of fishing on our rivers because certainly there is a great deal of ill-feeling among the rod fishermen about the netters. I am sorry to talk like this when my noble friend Lord Thurso is not here because he has an interest in both and would know more about the situation. However, this is a vital question in Scotland and I wonder whether or not NASCO will take an interest in this aspect of salmon conservation.
Lord Home of the Hirsel: My Lords, as a simple ex-Foreign Minister perhaps I may be allowed to add my welcome to this order if only for the reason that, as NASCO is to be located in Edinburgh, it will be a constant reminder to us of the value of the Atlantic salmon to the Scottish rural economy. It will also be a reminder that unless we can arrest the marked decline in the number of salmon coming into the Scottish rivers to breed, we shall lose a very valuable asset.
I shall not try to anticipate anything that may be in the Queen's Speech in relation to poaching, drift netting or anything of that nature, because I do not know its contents at all. However, this is an order in the conservation context and we should note that quotas have been applied to and accepted by both Greenland and the Faeroes and therefore there really is an obligation on us to do something in the context of the conservation of the Atlantic salmon. We ought to take some comparable action. The order certainly has my support.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: My Lords, I also rise to support the order. Those of your Lordships who have spoken so far have referred to Edinburgh. May I presume to tell your Lordships that as Kilgerran, with which I am associated, is situated alongside one of the finest salmon rivers in the United Kingdom, I felt it proper that I should make some observations, irrelevant though they may be. I do not propose to extend the debate in any way. The noble Baroness the Minister referred to the preservation of natural resources. I know very well that the history of several centuries has involved coracles in the River Teifi. I wonder whether the natural resources of the river will be able to assist the coracle workers of the River Teifi at some time or other. Of course I do not want an answer from the Minister immediately, but I hope that those natural resources will be preserved in Wales as well as in Scotland, and also in Ireland.
Lord Balfour of Inchrye: My Lords, in welcoming this order I must say that I am amazed at the extent of the privilege and perquisites which those who administer this order are going to obtain. Nevertheless, one welcomes the order, but I would suggest that for a moment we spare a thought for the fish, which after all are going to be affected more than anything else by this order.
I think the Minister will not disagree with the fact that salmon stocks throughout the world are diminishing, that we see ahead the road to scarcity unless we take steps, and that this is a fine step we are taking this morning. I hope that the order's authority will lead to some action parallel to this by Her
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Majesty's Government on the seas we control. We can learn a lesson on conservation from the new African countries. What they do is ensure that rare species are continued.
Some years ago there used to be many people crossing the Atlantic with two large rifles in a case. They arrived at some point in Kenya, obtained white hunters and went off to shoot elephant, lion, or whatever game they wanted. Today those people cannot do that any longer. They go armed with a camera, and really they get just as much fun with the camera as those who used to use the bullet and kill. We might well learn something about conservation from those countries.
The species in those countries were threatened all the time, just as salmon are threatened here, and no longer are the precious species made victims of the hunter. Today they are guarded, just as we ought to guard the salmon in the high seas and the salmon in our national waters. In this country we have no strict conservation parallel with what they have in these new countries. It is true that we conserve to some degree, but legislation is required not only for the high seas, as in this order, but also for our domestic requirements.
It is a great reflection on Her Majesty's Governments—this one and preceding Governments—that we have had no comprehensive legislation in our country to try to put our salmon and freshwater fish laws in order. Everybody has always pressed for this. The only answer has been, "We haven't got time". Of course there is no time, but we have to make time for comprehensive legislation. I sincerely hope that one result of this order will be to encourage Her Majesty's Government to do the same for our home waters.
The Government always say, "We have no time", but the reason they say that is that there are no votes in it. Salmon cannot vote, and there is little interest in an urban population in the preservation of our sea life. It is a pity, but it is a fact, and a fact that has to be accepted; but I sincerely trust that we shall alter that in the future and copy what is being done in this order.
If salmon could speak—and unfortunately they cannot—they would speak with one voice. They would say, "Spare us. Do not murder us. Keep us alive. Encourage us". They would adopt what Mr. Churchill said in the notes we used to get from him in the war: "Action this day". I hope that the salmon are saying it now as they listen to this debate.
Viscount Eccles: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him whether he wants to photograph the salmon in Scottish rivers or catch them and eat them?
Lord Balfour of Inchrye: Catch them, my Lords!
Lord Moran: My Lords, I welcome the establishment of NASCO in Edinburgh. I can claim to have played a small part in bringing this about by helping to persuade the Canadian Government to support its establishment in Edinburgh. Their first thought had been to put it in, of all places, Copenhagen. I support the two Motions we are discussing. I am only sorry that the United Kingdom is not separately represented in

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NASCO and that we only have a voice equal with countries like Denmark or Greece in the Community, which produces no salmon at all. Nonetheless, it is going to play an important part.
Its principal task is going to be to try to control and limit the intercepting fisheries in Greenland and the Faeroe Islands, of which the Minister of State spoke. But one of the problems at the moment is that in pressing for a reduction in the take of these intercepting fisheries our own position is compromised so long as we permit unrestricted fishing by monofilament drift nets off north-east England, and naturally the Greenlanders will say—indeed have already said—that until we put our own house in order it is unreasonable to expect them to do more.
Drift netting is banned in Scotland, and it is unreasonable that it should be allowed to take such an enormous and increasing take of the salmon returning to principally Scottish waters. Indeed, it is now taking over 77,000 salmon a year, which is a quarter of all the salmon taken in Scotland in 1984. It is important that it should be controlled, and I therefore warmly welcome the statement by the Minister of State's colleague in another place two days ago that the Government accept the need for careful constraint on net fishing for salmon, and that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary of State for Scotland hope to make an announcement on this matter shortly. That is important.
I wonder incidentally whether, when she replies to this debate, the Minister of State will tell us why the report, which I understand was drawn up by the Ministry's scientists, has not been published. I realise that some parts of it may have been commercially in confidence but I do not understand why the rest of it has not been published.
The fact that it has been, so to speak, suppressed gives rise to suspicion that it in fact recommends strongly that the drift netting off north-east England is doing immense damage and should be brought to an end. I hope very much that it can be phased out. Of course we have to consider the livelihood of those engaged in it, but if some way could be found of bringing it first under control and then phasing it out altogether, as has been done in Scotland, this would be important.
I hope that when this announcement is made by Ministers they will be able to announce comprehensive measures for salmon conservation, covering not only netting at sea but the poaching which has become such a feature on so many rivers; perhaps the control of seals, which was mentioned in another place two days ago, and perhaps some restrictions on rod fishing as well may be considered.
I welcome this Motion and I think this new organisation will play a very important part in preserving salmon, which is what we all want.
12 noon
Lord Ross of Marnock: My Lords, we should certainly approve this order. Scotsmen fairly widely have been pressing for this for a long time and hoping that we could get this North Atlantic conservation going. However it will not solve all our problems. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour, was right when he said that
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the main problems are with ourselves. Think of what the poor salmon has to go through. He leaves the other side of the Atlantic, goes past Greenland, Iceland and the Faeroes. If he comes to the north of England he has less chance than ever. The number of salmon which reach their spawning grounds is very few.
As well as having this possibility for better conservation, perhaps by quota or other ideas in relation to the salmon while it is in the Atlantic, we have to consider salmon while they are getting to our rivers and travelling to their own spawning grounds. It is not easy. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour, says that it is purely a matter of finding time. It is not only finding time. We have to sort out all the conflicting interests such as those on the estuarial fishing grounds, the commercial grounds, the rod anglers and the other geographical areas such as Solway with special problems. Noble Lords will appreciate that it is not easy. There is the problem of separate legislation for England and Scotland.
I had the privilege—though it was not much of a privilege at the time—of stopping the drift-netting off the Scottish east coast. It was done just before an election so I was thinking more of fish than votes at that time and found that I was very unpopular, but it had to be done. If we are to preserve the salmon both for commercial interests and for the growing tourist industry—we are concerned not just with fishing but with the gear and so on that is part of a new industry and is important with salmon—we have to approve and develop from this measure and then consider our own problems. If the English would do this in relation to their own problems in the North-East I should be very pleased indeed.
Lord Tryon: My Lords, the day before yesterday I was showing an American friend round Salisbury Cathedral and I paused to look at a copy of Magna Carta that they have there. There was a great catalogue of far-sighted improvements to human rights and to my delight among all this I discovered what was probably the first salmon conservation order. There in the great charter is a provision for the removal of fish weirs on the rivers Thames and Medway and, as an afterthought, "all other rivers in England". Clearly at that time they were worried about migratory fish. Only migratory fish are caught in a fish weir and of those there are only three of any importance; the salmon, the sea trout and eels, which go in the opposite direction. There has never been any problem with eel stocks so they must have been worrying about salmon. It could be that the weirs on the lower parts of rivers were catching all the fish so that those farther up were not having a fair go, but I like to think that, even then in 1215, they were worried about sufficient numbers of salmon reaching the spawning grounds at the heads of rivers. They seem to me to have been even more farsighted in 1215 than governments in recent years, because again we have a salmon conservation problem.
I welcome these orders. They are thoroughly to be commended. I welcome NASCO to Edinburgh, but there is more to be done than this and I should like to say something about the North-East England drift net fishery. As was clear from the Hunter report of 1965—and when one stops to think about it it is pure

1579 common sense—it is only by harvesting salmon close to the rivers in which they spawn that any kind of proper control can be exercised. In the debate in the other place on Monday (and it has been repeated here by the Minister today) the Government wished to restrict interception fishing in the Faeroe Islands and Greenland. I believe they do not consider that the North-East England drift net fishery is an intercepting fishery in the terms of the NASCO convention. If it is not an interception fishery, I do not know what it is, because the fishing is well away from those rivers to which the fish are going.
As has been mentioned, I do not know how we can continue to lean on the Greenlanders, the Faeroe Islanders and others while we permit this to continue here. The drift net fishery is a classic example of people reaping what they do not sow in a relatively uncontrolled way. I expect we shall be told that they are licensed and we shall be told, too, that some employment is involved. We have heard already about the courageous steps which were taken in Scotland to deal with this. I do not see why the nettle should not be grasped in England as well.
It is also quite clear from the Hunter Report and the experience of all of us who have gone fishing for salmon in Scotland that the value of a salmon caught on a rod and line to the local economy in Scotland can be anything up to ten times or beyond (depending on the success of the fisherman) its value on the fishmonger's slab. That has certainly been my experience on my last two fishing holidays in Scotland. I should hate to give the figures of my input into the local economy per fish caught, but it is infinitely more than a fish merely scooped out of the sea somewhere, finding its way to the fishmonger's slab.
The noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, seems to have wind of some improvements that might come in the future but I hope the Minister can give us some encouragement that the drift net fishery and the level of poaching in Scotland are things that the Government are considering seriously and will be doing something about shortly.
Lord Margadale: My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to say a brief word in support of the proposals made by Her Majesty's Government. I should like to thank them and I hope that something concrete will arrive at the end of it. I am also grateful for the opportunity of speaking after the noble Lord, Lord Tryon, who I know is an expert with rod and line. I hope that will not mean that too many fish will be removed. We all have to remember, be we rod fishermen, net fishermen, freshwater or salt water, that salmon can only breed in fresh water, usually at the top of our rivers. We must not take out too many to prevent them getting there.
There have been various outbreaks of salmon disease (as we briefly call it in these islands) which have taken a severe toll. In Norway, where I sometimes go, there is a new disease, which is propagated by a parasite and which may kill all the smelts and all the parr before they reach the river bottoms. When they reach the bottom, salt water disinfects them and they are all right. This shows the increasing dangers there
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are to the salmon stock, and we must not let it become too low.
Earl Haig: My Lords, first, I declare an interest in that I derive a benefit from salmon nets on the Tweed; and, secondly, I speak as a member of the River Tweed Commission. I should like to add my welcome to this order to help salmon conservation. Although in terms of the NASCO Convention the new organisation is responsible for areas outside the 12-mile limit, its work in regard to the United Kingdom is very much linked with salmon along the shores and in our rivers. The banning of Northumbrian drift netting with monofilament nets is a priority need for east of Scotland rivers (where a ban already exists) which are affected by netting off the coast of Northumberland. Police work at the mouth of the Tweed is increasingly successful, and as a result catches are improving.
Legislation is urgently needed to deal with this problem off Northumberland, if necessary with compensation to sea fishermen. There is no justification for sea fishermen to continue to reap a large share of the catch which is generated thanks to river management paid for by the river nets and rod fishermen. It is rather like a beekeeper having his bees returning to hives at night scooped up with nets by a hiveless neighbour. This menace, which is more serious than river poaching and more serious than damage by seals, should be dealt with quickly, otherwise the river nets will go out of business and the whole economy of the river will suffer. No money will be available to pay for river bailiffs.
Perhaps I should also refer to pollution. The river is clean but it suffers from algae, probably because of the increasing amount of fertiliser. Algae prevents fly life which feeds the salmon parr and smolt, which are becoming scarce. These two causes, drift netting and algae, are major hazards to the future of salmon on the Tweed.
Baroness Young: My Lords, in preparation for introducing these two orders to your Lordships' House, I of course read the proceedings in another place. I was interested to see that they went on for two-and-a-half hours, and I must say that I felt a measure of apprehension that in your Lordships' House this might have meant a five-hour debate. I am glad that I am not disappointed, in that we have had 10 speakers in this debate. There is only one correction that I should make about what was said in another place. I really think I must correct my honourable friend Mr. Rifkind for describing himself as "a simple Foreign Office Minister". I think that is a mistake!
I am very grateful for the welcome that has been given to these two orders. I think every noble Lord who has spoken has welcomed them and is glad that they are to come into effect. It may be helpful if I say this right at the beginning, because a number of noble Lords have referred to what I believe are called monofilament nets. I feel, if I may put it in these terms, that it is not a subject in which I wish to become entangled, but nevertheless it is one to which my honourable friend Mr. Rifkind referred in another place when he indicated, as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, told your Lordships (although one cannot anticipate proposals for the future) that:
"the examination that has been taking place includes a possible tagging scheme as well as other proposals for dealing with the problem of illegal salmon fishing".
He went on to say:
"the Government accept the need for careful constraint on net fishing for salmon. Although this fishery is already strictly regulated by the Northumbrian and Yorkshire water authorities, the Government have been reviewing the arrangements to see whether they should be further tightened. My right honourable friends the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary of State for Scotland hope to make an announcement on this matter.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/10/85; col. 778.]
The noble Lord, Lord Moran, asked me whether or not this report was to be published. I understand that it is a report drawn up by MAFF and scientists, that it was in the form of advice to Ministers and not in a form that is suitable for publication.
Other quite specific questions were asked of me. The noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, asked me whether NASCO would take an interest in the conduct of Scottish fisheries. I am afraid I have to tell him that NASCO does not have powers in relation to fisheries in the home waters of the originating states, and that includes the various River Tay fisheries, which are a domestic issue.
I am very glad to be able to tell the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, that coracle fishing on the River Teifi is regulated by the Welsh Water Authority, which I understand is conducting a thorough review of its salmon fisheries. The noble Lord, Lord Tryon, asked me about licences in the north east fisheries. I can tell him that these are very strictly controlled by the Northumbrian and Yorkshire water authorities. The number of licences issued has in fact declined from 328 in 1971 to 150 this year.
I think that covers the principal points that have been raised today. If I have not referred to all your Lordships by name it is because I believe everyone has given a welcome to these two orders. I am glad to indicate, so far as I can, these future proposals, which no doubt will come before your Lordships' House.
I say once again how glad I am of the welcome that the orders have received. I beg to move that they be now approved.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

European Communities (Immunities and Privileges of the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation) Order 1985
Baroness Young: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 17th July be approved. [30th Report from the Joint Committee.]—(Baroness Young.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Nursing Homes and Nursing Agencies (Northern Ireland) Order 1985
12.18 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 11 th July be approved.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the Nursing Homes and Nursing Agencies (Northern Ireland) Order 1985, a draft of which was laid before this House on 11th July 1985, be approved. The purpose of the order which is before us this morning is to provide powers under which the use of certain laser techniques in medicine or surgery, including cosmetic surgery, can be regulated. The order will make it possible to regulate these techniques by bringing premises in which they are used within the definition of nursing homes in the Nursing Homes and Nursing Agencies Act (Northern Ireland) 1971. It will also empower the department to specify the type of laser techniques which are to be controlled and to make regulations specifying the records to be kept about laser treatment. This order will put the law in Northern Ireland into line with that of England and Wales.
Over the past few years there has been an increase in the use of lasers for the removal of tattoos. The stronger types of laser are potentially dangerous and those at risk are mainly young people who may wish to remove an unwanted tattoo acquired perhaps without realising that it would not merely fade away. The stronger type of laser which it is intended to control can, in the hands of unskilled practitioners, cause serious damage. This type of damage includes such things as burns to the skin which may need subsequently plastic surgery and can even include blindness. For this reason it is clear that safeguards are necessary in this area of lasers and their techniques.
It is the contention of the Government that the powers in the order before us today are both necessary and, we hope, uncontroversial. The Government also believe that it is right to have them available sooner rather than later and, to minimise delay, the order has been laid in your Lordships' House without a proposal being published. I am sure that your Lordships would agree that in these particular circumstances this is the proper way to proceed. With that, I commend the order to your Lordships.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 11th July be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)
Lord Prys-Davies: My Lords, we are happy to support the provisions of this order which are similar although not identical—and I would wish to emphasise that point—with the relevant provisions to be found in Statutory Instrument 1984 No. 1578 which applies to England and Wales. The order extends the 1971 Act to include nursing homes used for treatment by "a specially controlled technique". Those are the words used in the order. The order goes on to define the meaning of the phrase used. By this phrase, as used in this order, there is meant a
"technique of medicine or surgery … which … may create a hazard for persons treated by means of it or for the staff of any premises where the technique is used".
One must emphasise that this term in this order is given a much wider meaning than that given in the 1984 statutory instrument applying to England and Wales. In Northern Ireland, it seems to me, the net is cast very much wider and it is not clear to me at least why this should be so. Why is it that in the England and Wales order the phrase is restricted to the techniques using laser 3B projects and laser 4 projects. Perhaps the Minister can explain that.
As the Minister has explained, the order also introduces record-keeping requirements in relation to the application ot these techniques and we go along with the requirements. I have not been able to find out how well the current regulations operate in the Province or how great is the mischief which this order is designed to meet; because the order and its background has not been debated on the Floor of the Assembly which is pretty close to the scene of events. We have always valued the debates in the Assembly because they are always based on direct knowledge, information and experience. We are at some loss to understand why this order was not laid in October 1984. I cannot but sympathise with those who are critical of the lack of consultation.
We must always have it in mind that an order which affects the lives of people should wherever possible be the subject of consultation, debate and of question. It should always be subjected to the full pressure of public debate. It seems to me that the department cannot have it both ways. If the department assumed—as I think quite correctly—that there would be universal support for the provisions of this order and that they could therefore proceed without consultation and without the delays occasioned by consultation, why was it not laid before Parliament in October 1984 when the England and Wales order was introduced; or, indeed, in the interval since then? And if, in October 1985, the department can proceed without consultation, then why was the order not introduced in October 1984? Why the delay of 12 months? But having said all that, I am glad on behalf of our Benches that the order has been introduced and it would appear to be altogether right and proper.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: My Lords, we are happy to support this order from these Benches. I shall be interested to hear the answers to some of Lord Prys-Davies's questions but, irrespective of the answers, I think that we can fully support it. I should like to take this opportunity (which is the first we have had) on behalf of my noble friend Lord Hampton and myself of congratulating the new Secretary of State, wishing him the luck that he will certainly need and expressing the hope that he will be successful in bringing to a satisfactory conclusion the negotiations so well-initiated by his predecessor. Having said that, we are happy to support the order.
Lord Blease: My Lords, I rise in support of the points made about the procedure arrangements by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and I join with the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, in his remarks about the new Secretary of State. There are three matters which I shall be grateful if the noble Lord the Minister will consider in his reply to this brief debate. The first point that I wish to put is this. Will the necessary subordinate legislation arising from this order to effect controls over the use of laser techniques be referred to the Northern Ireland Assembly and to both Houses of the United Kingdom Parliament? Further, what is the likely timescale for the introduction of those regulations?
The second point is this. The order states that the Department of Health and Social Security will have
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the power and authority to control and register working performance, and to require records to be kept. In practice, who will be responsible? Will it be the Department of Health and Social Security or the health and social service boards? I ask this because I have reason to believe that this division of responsibility and authority at times has given rise to considerable misunderstanding and, I think, inefficiency in the operation of the provisions of the legislation.
The third point on which I wish to ask the Minister a question is this. I understand that consideration is being given to the need to update the legislative provisions of the Nursing Homes and Nursing Agencies (Northern Ireland) Act 1971. From representations made to me and from my own observations and knowledge of the situation I am convinced that there is an urgent need to bring under more strict supervision and control the existing standards, the facilities and indeed the payments being extracted from patients in private nursing homes in Northern Ireland. May I ask the Minister how soon we may expect this amending legislation? With those remarks, I join other noble Lords who have spoken in welcoming this legislation.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, we are grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on this somewhat technical order together with the more technical points of legislation which have been rightly raised by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. I stress to the noble Lord and to all noble Lords that the order is fairly short. It has been introduced just now with one specific purpose and that is to provide for the regulation of laser techniques in the removal of tattoos. I am given to understand that the order will enable the DHSS in Northern Ireland the necessary powers; but as to the implementation of those powers and as to who will be responsible, perhaps I may inform the noble Lord, Lord Blease, that I have taken his question on board and hope to be able to inform him about that before the end of the debate. If that is not possible, I shall write in detail to him.
12.30 p.m.
I am very grateful for the support that all your Lordships have indicated for this order. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised several points, one of which was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, as to why the order had been laid in July and debated today. As your Lordships will be aware, this order is being discussed under the shortened form, as it is called, of normal procedure. This is used infrequently. As your Lordships have understood, it bypasses the public pre-parliamentary consultative stage, whereas I understand that normally for an order of this type, the time taken up by the consultation period and a full gap between the discussion of the order and its coming into force is as much as 64 weeks, which is almost 16 months. But the shortened form of normal procedure is authorised by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State only after his very careful consideration. I do wish to assure your Lordships that in the future, as in the past, we shall use this particular procedure very selectively and in accordance with the strictest possible criteria.

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We have looked carefully to see whether any lessons can be learned from the unusual chain of events when the order was brought forward from another place. I should like to stress to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that fresh instructions have been issued to all the departments involved in Northern Ireland. A key point which I hope all your Lordships will welcome is that in future, where my right honourable friend the Secretary of State approves the preparation of an order under the shortened form of procedure which we are using today, he will at that stage write to the party leaders in Northern Ireland and indeed to the Opposition spokesmen, informing them of his decision and explaining the reason why no proposal is being published at that stage.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, also raised the question of lasers and I think he was leading me on to somewhat technical ground. He mentioned a Class 3B laser and a Class 4 laser: whether that is the beam or the ray I am not entirely sure. But the noble Lord has asked this scientific question and I am able to answer him to some extent by telling him that any technique of medicine, or even surgery, which is applicable in this case, I think,—and that includes cosmetic surgery and is specifically targeted towards the removal of tattoos—is intended to be controlled, and the definition of these laser products can be found in Part I of British Standard No. 4803:83, Radiation Safety of Laser Products and Systems.
I am afraid I come before your Lordships without the relevant British Standard but I do not think your Lordships would wish me to go further into the intricacies of this. May I, therefore, let the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, have note of the details? The noble Lord may possibly know the details of the British Standards already but I certainly do not. For that I apologize, and I should like to send details of the Class 3B and the Class 4 laser products to the noble Lord. I think that might be of considerable help to him and certainly it will be to me.
I am given to understand that the particular problem which the order seeks to cure has become apparent within the last twelve months or so. The noble Lord, Lord Blease, may have further knowledge of this and perhaps we may discuss it later, but advertisements have appeared relating to the removal of tattoos and these removals are often carried out in an unsupervised way and by unqualified persons. I understand that tattoos can be removed by these different types of laser products.
A particular welcome for the order was expressed by an honourable Member in another place—I believe he is classified as a "reverend honourable Member"—who recalled that at one wedding ceremony at which he officiated the young man had "I love Barbara" tattooed on his arm whereas in fact the bride's name was Mary. So probably there have been some problems, but that may not be a case which occurred last year. Possibly the methods of removal which have solved this problem came into use during the past year.
We are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, for his intervention and I shall pass on all his kind words. I personally am very grateful to him for his compliments to my right honourable friend on his
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new appointment. I am afraid I cannot say what is going on regarding other matters: that will have to wait for another day. But we are grateful for the noble Lord's good wishes and indeed for those of his Alliance colleague. They will certainly be welcomed as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Blease, asked me about the responsibility and I am able to tell him that the health and social services boards will enforce the subordinate legislation. The noble Lord also asked about techniques. These techiques will be defined in a subordinate order on the same lines as the definition in English legislation. This will make it easier for other techniques to be covered should the need arise. That was a point which was first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies.
The other reasons why we were not able to bring forward this order earlier—and this confirms the point I made to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies—was that we were not aware of this problem in 1984. We seized this opportunity of introducing legislation as soon as the potential problem was recognized. I am happy to stress the word "potential", since we are not aware of any grave injuries caused by the misguided use of these laser products, as I think we would call them.
I would assure the noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Blease, that the Assembly will be consulted within the next two or three months on subordinate legislation which would cover these techniques. That will bring us through the late autumn and the early winter. I am also able to tell the noble Lord, Lord Blease, that the 1971 Act is being reviewed to see what changes may be needed.
I hope I have covered all the points that have been raised, but should I have missed any details we will write to the noble Lords concerned. With that, perhaps I may say again that I am grateful for the reception which this order has received from your Lordships.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Parliamentary Constituencies (England) (Miscellaneous Changes) Order 1985
12.40 p.m.
Viscount Davidson Viscount Davidson rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 5th March be approved. [15 th Report from the Joint Committee.]
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Parliamentary Constituencies (England) (Miscellaneous Changes) Order 1985, which was laid before this House on 5th March, be approved. This order will implement in full the final recommendations contained in the report of the Boundary Commission for England on its 1984 interim review. Articles 2 to 12 replace the 23 parliamentary constituencies concerned with those described in the schedule. Article 1(3) provides for the order to come into operation 14 days after it is made and for the new boundaries to take effect at the next general election. The draft order has already been considered by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and was approved in another place on 23rd October. If it is approved by your Lordships today, it will be submitted to Her Majesty in Council to be made.
Reviews of this kind are held at the discretion of each parliamentary boundary commission between the general reviews of parliamentary constituencies which have to be completed every 10 to 15 years. They therefore tend to occur at fairly infrequent intervals. The English commission's last interim review, which resulted in no change to the boundaries of the constituencies reviewed, was completed in 1975. It then embarked upon its mandatory interim reviews of all the parliamentary and European parliamentary constituencies, which were completed in 1983 and 1984 respectively.
The need for this interim review arises from a number of changes which have been made to local government boundaries since the making of the Parliamentary Constituencies (England) Order 1983. Most of these alterations were quite small but had resulted in the divergence of some county district and district ward boundaries from the constituency boundaries. The commission accordingly decided to review the boundaries of 23 constituencies in 10 counties as the first step in a programme to reduce the number of anomalies which had occurred since March 1983.
The scope of such reviews is for each parliamentary boundary commission to decide and the English commission, quite sensibly, decided to disturb the existing pattern of constituencies as little as possible by provisionally recommending the realignment of the constituency boundary with the new local government boundary in each area. It will therefore come as no surprise to your Lordships to hear that only three objections were made to the commission during its review and that it decided to confirm its original proposals as its final recommendations.
The number of electors in each area who will be affected by the implementation of these recommendations is comparatively small. Fewer than 500 electors are involved in every area except Wiltshire, where 1,240 will be affected by the proposed alteration to the boundary between the Swindon and Devizes constituencies. However, the only representations about that proposal supported the commission's recommendations, which would reduce the disparity between the 1984 electorates of those constituencies by 2,364.
Further evidence of the uncontentious nature of these proposals can be adduced from the fact that the former Home Secretary received only two representations about them, both of which had been considered during the review, and that no further representations have been received since the draft order was laid. I therefore commend the draft order giving effect to the commission's recommendations to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 5th March be approved. [15 th Report from the Joint Committee.]—(Viscount Davidson.)
Lord Underhill: My Lords, perhaps I may first congratulate the noble Viscount on his appointment to the Government Front Bench and, I believe, on introducing his first item of legislation on behalf of the Government. From these Benches, we say that if
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everything he introduces is as sensible and as innocuous as this order, we shall get on fine.
The noble Viscount said that some of the changes affect very few electors, while in others no electors at all are involved, because they deal merely with areas. I shall not refer to the debate in another place, nor to the speech which I made on 7th March 1983 on the occasion of the last periodic review and which I checked this morning. I mention that because there are a number of important questions on the rules and procedures of the boundary commission which need serious consideration. For instance, on looking at the boundary commission's report, to which the noble Viscount referred, we find that four of these 23 constituencies have over 80,000 electors and one has over 84,000.I know that electorates are not the only things that matter, though they are rather important. There are also such matters as community of interest and so on. Some of these were dealt with in the debate in the other place and I referred to them, and to a number of other desirable changes, when I spoke in 1983.
The next periodic review must be in 1993 or 1998—I do not know whether I shall be interested in it then—and it took seven years from the time when the commission first started its review to produce its final report in 1983. There were factors of local government changes which intervened, and who is to say that there will not be more local government changes before the next periodic review of the commission? Therefore it is rather important that any review should take place fairly quickly.
I note that the Minister in the other place seemed to give a definite assurance that there will be a review of the commission's rules and procedures, and he hoped that this might be undertaken by the Select Committee on Home Affairs. But he said that if that were not possible, consideration would need to be given to alternative ways of carrying out this review. I do not know whether the noble Viscount can give an assurance that any alternative method—if there is one—of carrying out this review will be brought before both Houses for debate before it is considered. I say that because, though noble Lords do not vote in parliamentary elections, we are very concerned with who our rulers are and also we have power to vote in European elections. I do not know whether the noble Viscount can give me that assurance, which is rather important. Otherwise we welcome this order.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, for his kind welcome for this order and also for his very kind words of welcome to me on my first appearance at this Dispatch Box. I am extremely fortunate to have been given a maiden speech which was a model of a maiden speech, in that it was short and uncontroversial. I cannot promise that that will be repeated very often, though I shall do my best.
In answer to the noble Lord's question, as he is aware this is essentially a matter for another place and I can only repeat the assurance which my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State gave during the debate last week in another place. We are aware of the discrepancies and the Government are looking into the matters that he spoke about.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Denham: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn during pleasure until we reassemble for the Royal Commission at 2.30 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

Royal Commission
A Commission for Royal Assent and Prorogation was read:
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:
Administration of Justice Act,
Oil and Pipelines Act,
Water (Fluoridation) Act,
European Communities (Finance) Act,
Insolvency Act,
Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act,
Transport Act,
Housing Act,
Housing Associations Act,
Landlord and Tenant Act,
Housing (Consequential Provisions) Act,
Weights and Measures Act,
Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act,
Associated British Ports (Port of Ayr) Order Confirmation Act,
Church of Scotland Trust (Amendment) Order Confirmation Act,
Dartmoor Commons Act,
Lincoln City Council Act,
Merseyside Development Corporation Act,
Cambridge City Council Act,
Birmingham City Council Act,
Hereford City Council Act,
Worcester City Council Act,
Clwyd County Council Act.

Prorogation: Her Majesty's Speech
Her Majesty's most gracious Speech was then delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of Her Majesty's Command) as follows:
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"The Duke of Edinburgh and I were pleased to receive the State Visits of the Life President of Malawi in April and the President of Mexico and Senora de la Madrid in June. We were saddened by the devastation caused by the earthquake in Mexico in September, for which my Government provided prompt assistance.
"We recall with much satisfaction the State Visit to Portugal in March. I have also visited Belize, and was in the Bahamas for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. Our tour of Commonwealth countries in the Eastern Caribbean is still in progress.
"My Government welcomed the decision of the Maldives and of St. Vincent and the Grenadines to become full members of the Commonwealth.
"My Government have maintained Britain's contribution to Western defence, and enhanced the United Kingdom's own defences through improvements in equipment and in the regular and reserve forces. They have played a full part in the Atlantic Alliance, and promoted British and Western defence interests outside the NATO area.
"My Government have continued to work vigorously for agreements on verifiable arms control and disarmament, and to seek improved relations with the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. They warmly welcomed the opening of talks in Geneva between the United States and the Soviet Union and fully support the United States' efforts to reach concrete agreements.
"My Government have signed the Treaty on the Accession of Spain and Portugal to the European Communities, and have signed and ratified the third Convention of Lomé. An Act has been passed implementing the Fontainebleau Agreement on the future financing of the European Communities, including the correction of the British budgetary contribution.
"My Government share the widespread public concern for the victims of the famine in Africa. They have continued to provide substantial emergency assistance both directly and through the European Community.
"My Government have continued fully to honour their undertakings to the people of the Falkland Islands, while taking positive steps to seek more normal relations with Argentina. The Sino-British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong was signed last December and an Act consequent upon its terms was passed. My Government have reached agreement with Spain on the implementation of the Lisbon statement concerning Gibraltar.
"My Government have supported efforts to restore the independence and non-aligned status of Afghanistan. They have urged peaceful change in South Africa and the early independence of Namibia.
"My Government welcomed to the United Kingdom in June the Premier of the State Council of the People's Republic of China. The great importance my Government attach to their relations with the countries of South East and South Asia was marked by the Prime Minister's visit there in April and by the visit here this month of the Indian Prime Minister.
"Members of the House of Commons, I thank you for the provision which you have made for the honour and dignity of the Crown and for the public service.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, my Government have maintained the policies necessary to bring down inflation and sustain economic growth. Inflation remains low, the output of the nation is at its highest level ever and continues to increase, as does the number of people in work.
"Further steps have been taken to help the unemployed into jobs by extending the Youth Training Scheme and enlarging the Community Programme, and in other ways, including a reform of the structure of national insurance contributions.
"To promote economic efficiency and encourage the spread of share ownership, not least among employees, my Government have continued their programme of returning state-owned businesses to the private sector, including the successful public flotation of British Telecommunications.
"An Act has been passed to complete the transition of the Trustee Savings Banks to full private sector status and to permit wide public participation in their ownership.
"An Act has been passed to increase competition in the provision of local bus services in Great Britain and to enable the operations of the National Bus Company to be transferred to the private sector.
"Legislation has been enacted to make further provision for the payment of grants to the National Coal Board and to abolish the British National Oil Corporation.
"Legislation has been enacted to remove the statutory levy on cinema admissions, to provide for alternative financial assistance for film production and to reduce the regulatory burden on the film and cinema industries.
"An Act has been passed for the better protection of food and the environment.
"An Act has been passed to establish in England and Wales a Crown Prosecution Service independent of the police, and to enable time limits to be imposed on criminal proceedings.
"An Act has been passed giving the right to vote at parliamentary and European Parliament elections to many British citizens resident abroad, and extending postal and proxy voting to electors who cannot reasonably be expected to vote in person.
"Legislation has been passed to establish a comprehensive statutory framework governing the interception of communications.
"An Act has been passed to deal with the problem of drunkenness at designated sporting events.
"Considerable advance has been made in the consolidation of our statute law; provision has been
1592
made to apply international Conventions on child abduction and for the administration of justice.
"An Act has been passed to abolish the Greater London Council and the Metropolitan County Councils on 1st April 1986 and to transfer most of their functions to the borough and district councils.
"In Northern Ireland, my Government have attached high importance to the maintenance of law and order. They have continued the search for ways in which responsibility can be returned to a local administration on a widely acceptable basis. They have sought to develop a solid working relationship with the Government of the Republic of Ireland.
"For Scotland, measures have been passed to introduce a rebate scheme following rating revaluations, to establish trustee bodies to manage certain Scottish institutions, and to make a number of reforms in Scots law.
"Legislation has been passed to reform insolvency law in England and Wales, and in Scotland.
"My Government have published proposals to improve the quality of school education, the effectiveness of teachers and the development of higher education into the next decade.
"My Government have conducted a fundamental review of the social security system and published proposals for radical reform.
"In addition, my Government have protected the real value of the retirement pension and other related benefits, and passed an Act to improve employees' rights under occupational pension schemes, and to extend statutory sick pay.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may attend you."
After which the Lord Chancellor said:
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, by virtue of Her Majesty's Commission which has been now read we do in Her Majesty's name, and in obedience to Her Majesty's Commands, prorogue this Parliament to the 6th day of November 1985, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Wednesday, the 6th day of November 1985.
Parliament was prorogued at nine minutes past three o'clock.

  EC COUNCIL OF MINISTERS: FORTHCOMING BUSINESS
  EC COUNCIL OF MINISTERS: FORTHCOMING BUSINESS
  INTERLOCUTORS AND REPUDIATION OF VIOLENCE
  INTERLOCUTORS AND REPUDIATION OF VIOLENCE
  PERSONAL TAXATION: COMPARISON WITH USA
  PERSONAL TAXATION: COMPARISON WITH USA
  WOMEN AND YOUNG WORKERS: EMPLOYMENT
  WOMEN AND YOUNG WORKERS: EMPLOYMENT
  REDUNDANCY AND MATERNITY PAYMENTS: INSOLVENT EMPLOYERS
  REDUNDANCY AND MATERNITY PAYMENTS: INSOLVENT EMPLOYERS
  ROYAL FLEET RESERVE: ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES
  ROYAL FLEET RESERVE: ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES
  EWES: EC SPECIAL EXPORT CERTIFICATION
  EWES: EC SPECIAL EXPORT CERTIFICATION
  GREATER LONDON ENTERPRISE BOARD: EXPENDITURE
  GREATER LONDON ENTERPRISE BOARD: EXPENDITURE
  DUICH MOSS SSSI: PLANNING CONSENT CONDITIONS
  DUICH MOSS SSSI: PLANNING CONSENT CONDITIONS
  DUICH MOSS SSSI: SITE MEETING
  DUICH MOSS SSSI: SITE MEETING
  INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT PIRACY AND UN
  INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT PIRACY AND UN
  BOARD AND LODGING: DHSS PAYMENTS
  BOARD AND LODGING: DHSS PAYMENTS
  SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT AND MORTGAGE PAYMENTS
  SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT AND MORTGAGE PAYMENTS
  RETIREMENT PENSIONS AND CHANGES IN EMPLOYMENT
  RETIREMENT PENSIONS AND CHANGES IN EMPLOYMENT
  MOBILITY ALLOWANCE: DEAF-BLIND CLAIMANTS
  MOBILITY ALLOWANCE: DEAF-BLIND CLAIMANTS
  STATE EARNINGS RELATED PENSION SCHEME
  STATE EARNINGS RELATED PENSION SCHEME
  DIABETICS: DISPOSABLE SYRINGES AND NEEDLES
  DIABETICS: DISPOSABLE SYRINGES AND NEEDLES
  CORPORAL PUNISHMENT: GUIDANCE TO EDUCATION AUTHORITIES
  CORPORAL PUNISHMENT: GUIDANCE TO EDUCATION AUTHORITIES
  EDUCATION OF DEAF-BLIND CHILDREN: DISCUSSION DOCUMENT
  EDUCATION OF DEAF-BLIND CHILDREN: DISCUSSION DOCUMENT
  FURTHER EDUCATION: WOMEN STUDENTS
  FURTHER EDUCATION: WOMEN STUDENTS
  TELEVISION CONCESSIONARY LICENCES
  TELEVISION CONCESSIONARY LICENCES