Sitting of 22 March 1984

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS

    GINNS AND GUTTERIDGE, LEICESTER (CREMATORIUM) BILL (By Order)
    Order for consideration, as amended, read.
    To be considered upon Thursday 29 March.

    NOTTINGHAMSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
    Order for further consideration, as amended, read.
    To be considered upon Thursday 29 March.

    DARTMOOR COMMONS BILL (By Order)
    Orders for Second reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 29 March.

    SELECTION
    Ordered,
    That the Standing Order of 30 June 1983 relating to the nomination of members of the Committee of Selection be amended by leaving out Mr. Roy Hughes and inserting Mr. Donald Coleman.—[Mr. Neubert.]

Oral Answers to Questions
  NORTHERN IRELAND

    Security
    Mr. Molyneauxasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Nicholsonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Norther Ireland.
    Mr. Maginnisasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
    The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. James Prior): Since I last answered questions on 23 February there have been five deaths in incidents arising from the security situation in the Province. Two were part-time soldiers of the Ulster Defence Regiment, one was a former member of the UDR, one was a member of the
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    prison service and one was a civilian. In the same period 52 people have been charged with terrorist offences, and 16 weapons, 3,997 rounds of ammunition and 1,191 lb of explosives have been recovered.
    Mr. Molyneaux: What progress is the Secretary of State making in ascertaining the motives of the instigators of the murder of the deputy governor of the Maze prison?
    Mr. Prior: As the right hon. Gentleman will know, a number of people have been charged with offences connected with that murder. As the matter is now sub judice, I shall not say anything further.
    Mr. Nicholsons: What report can the Secretary of State make to the House on the fiasco of attempts to close cross-border crossings? Have these attempts now been abandoned in deference to representations made to him by the Irish ambassador?
    Mr. Prior: The answer to the second part of that question is no, Sir. The further closure of border crossings is being considered and kept under review. Of the total number of border crossings between Northern Ireland and the Republic, about half are closed.
    Mr. Maginnis: Is the Secretary of State aware that my constituents were considerably heartened by his frankness—if not his message—during his recent television interview, when he said that border security had never been good? Will he now tell us in general terms what steps he hopes to take to improve border security? I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not put the House off with the usual answer that it is a matter for the General Officer Commanding and the Chief Constable. It is the Secretary of State's responsibility.
    Mr. Prior: Yes, I fully accept that it is my responsibility. However, operational duties are the responsibility of the GOC and the Chief Constable. Border security is never as good as I would wish. The problem is not only border security, but the internal security of Northern Ireland.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Is the Secretary of State aware that there is great concern among the border community about what is taking place? Is he further aware that what happened after Darkley has now been reversed and we have returned to a pre-Darkley position? Will the right hon. Gentleman respond to the representations made to him by members of many sections of the community in Northern Ireland that certain crossings should be closed and intersections along the border manned to prevent terrorists from the Republic coming in and doing their diabolical deeds?
    Mr. Prior: It is not true to say that security force levels are back to their pre-Darkley levels. Additional forces are deployed, mostly in a covert manner, in those areas.
    The view of the operational commanders is that more attention should be paid to intersections, not necessarily on a permanent basis, but more on an in-and-out basis.
    I am, of course, deeply aware and conscious of the views of people living near or on the border, and I try to take them very much into account in my discussions with the operational commanders.
    Mr. McNamara: The right hon. Gentleman referred to the number of people who have been charged. Will he give an undertaking that they will be brought to trial within a reasonable time and that we shall not have internment

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    by stealth, which seems to be the result of the figures published yesterday of the number of people who have been detained for long periods?
    Mr. Prior: This is a matter of great concern. It is one not directly for me, but for the judicial authorities. Every effort is made to bring people to trial as quickly as possible, but there are a number of problems—not least the desire of defendants to choose particular counsel and the availability of counsel. However, I assure the House and the hon. Gentleman that I am doing all that I can to ensure that there is a speed-up in some of these remand cases.
    Mr. William Ross: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that not one person who is wanted by the RUC for the murder of a member of the security forces, or what the courts in the Irish Republic call "a political crime", has yet been extradited to Northern Ireland? Will he welcome extradition where it has taken place, but continue to press for full extradition in respect of these other crimes? Is he aware of the danger of being too overjoyed at getting one swallow, even if it is a very nasty one?
    Mr. Prior: I cannot answer offhand the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, but if he tables a question I shall have the facts looked at. I very much favour extradition and am always drawing that to the attention of the Republic, but we should at least welcome what has happened in this case.
    Mr. Archer: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that closing roads is only a minor inconvenience to terrorists who can cross fields on foot or by tractor, while it is a real problem to legitimate travellers who travel openly on public highways? Will he consider whether the irritation and loss of good will may not be worth more to the terrorists than they lose?
    Mr. Prior: All these matters must be taken into consideration. We must also bear in mind that if a border crossing is closed and subsequently reopened, there is no point in closing it in the first place unless security forces are manning the closure. If the security forces are manning a closure, there is not much point in making the closure in the first place.

    Sherpa Aircraft
    Mr. Robert Atkinsasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the recent US air force purchase of Shorts' Sherpa aircraft.
    The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Adam Butler): I am sure that the whole House will have shared in the general delight at Shorts winning this valuable order for 18 aircraft from the US air force. Most importantly in the Northern Ireland context, it should provide some 500 or 600 new jobs. The stringent standards applied by the American armed forces are well known and, therefore, their order is also a particularly notable endorsement of Shorts' production capability and expertise. I hope that the contract will pave the way for further orders from the American as well as from other air forces. I should also like to pay full tribute to the company's work force and management, whose record of performance and painstaking efforts have been essential to securing this order.
    Mr. Atkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that this is enormously good news for the Province at this difficult
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    time and is a great tribute to the quality of the design and production work force at Shorts in producing an aeroplane that the Americans are prepared to buy? That is particularly so in view of the rather unpleasant and partisan attitude of certain members of the United States Congress who tried to suggest that, for religious reasons, Shorts was unable to produce this aeroplane in the right manner. Does this not prove that British Aerospace as an industry is better than similar industries anywhere else in the world?
    Mr. Butler: I agree with all that my hon. Friend has said. It was most satisfying that the attack by the Irish national caucus was beaten off and that it was possible to demonstrate clearly that Shorts' recruitment procedures were non-discriminatory.
    Mr. John David Taylor: I welcome the Minister's statement. How many new jobs will arise as a result of the contract? Will he assure the House that there will be no lowering of standards of new applicants for enrolment in that company and that there will be no positive discrimination against any coomunity in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Butler: There will be no positive discrimination or quotas. It is important that the recruitment procedures should be totally open and that fair opportunities are provided for all members of the community. I am confident that that will be done. The contract will mean that 500 or 600 new jobs will be provided. That is significant, because it represents about 0·5 per cent. of the total manufacturing work force in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that the order from the United States air force—we know how difficult it is to obtain orders from it—clearly shows that, when British companies manufacture the right products at the right price, there is always a market for those products?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Peter Robinson: Is it likely that Short Bros. will get further work from the same source?
    Mr. Butler: The United States air force holds options for a larger number of these aircraft. Obviously, Shorts will be going out to win those as well, if possible.
    Mr. Soley: The Opposition share in the pleasure about this order. The United States Government made a detailed check on Shorts fair employment activities and were pleased with what they found. Will the Minister assure the House that the British Government will be equally stringent in checking before giving orders to Northern Ireland companies?
    Mr. Butler: I think that the hon. Gentleman is a little off course. Investigations were carried out by the Fair Employment Agency, which was set up not on behalf of the United States Government, but under the statute passed by Parliament in 1976. That agency operates throughout the Province and is free to act where it wishes in regard to any companies. I assure the House that the Government do everything possible to ensure that fair employment practices do operate.

    Assembly
    Mr. Andrew MacKayasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement on the future of the Assembly.
    Mr. Prior: The future of the Assembly will be determined by the Members elected to it. The Assembly offers a framework in which those elected representatives can pursue the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, but it cannot be sustained idefinitely if the majority of them continue to refuse to take part.
    Mr. MacKay: Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to scotch the rumour of an option of joint sovereignty in Northern Ireland? Will he confirm that the Government believe this to be a non-starter?
    Mr. Prior: The Government remain committed to the principle of self-determination, which was given statutory effect in the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973. The results of the Assembly election and the general election demonstrate that a majority of voters favour the maintenance of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Molyneaux: Will the Secretary of State share with the House the views that he did not feel he ought to divulge to American journalists for fear that Unionists would—I use his terms—jump over the wall?
    Mr. Prior: Many things make Unionists jump over the wall.
    Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Will my right hon. Friend stick to his policy of moving more Government decision-making to Ulster and the Assembly? Is it not desirable to have a high degree of local autonomy and control? Will my right hon. Friend go further and accept that the logical outcome of such a process might be an independent Ulster—a solution favoured by some hon. Members?
    Mr. Prior: I think that there is a great deal to be said for more devolved government in Northern Ireland, but it would have to be on the basis that this is acceptable to the community as a whole.
    Mr. Flannery: Is it not a fact that the minority community will take no part in this Assembly because it distrusts the Assembly and knows that it will be defeated continually by the Unionists? Is it not also a fact that the All Ireland Forum does not have the Northern Ireland Unionists in it for the same reason? Even though the other side is not represented in each of those bodies, should we still not examine with some care, and possibly in a constructive way, what is said in the Northern Ireland Assembly, and in the Forum in Southern Ireland?
    Mr. Prior: Yes, Sir; certainly both.
    Mr. Peter Robinson: Are there members of the religious minority in the Assembly at present? Have not the Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, through constructive work there, confounded the critics of the Assembly? Does the Secretary of State welcome the fact that next week it will be having its 100th sitting?
    Mr. Prior: Yes, I think that the Assembly has done a great deal of very useful work, and I warmly applaud the part taken in it by many Assemblymen. I confirm that members of the minority community are playing an active part. I just wish that there were more.

    Security
    Mr. Yeoasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if, when he next meets the Prime Minister of Ireland, he will discuss security.
    Mr. Flanneryasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will meet the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland after the report of the All Ireland Forum comes out to discuss issues which affect Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Prior: I have at present no plans to meet Dr. FitzGerald. But, when we do next meet, I would expect to discuss a range of matters of common concern, amongst which security would feature.
    Mr. Yeo: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the price of improving security in Northern Ireland and reducing the number of lives lost there is to allow the Republic of Ireland a greater say in the affairs of Ulster, that is a price that an increasing number of people in this country are willing to pay?
    Mr. Prior: I have noted very carefully the views of my hon. Friend and of others of my hon. Friends.
    Mr. Flannery: May I ask the Secretary of State, first, why he has taken these two questions together? One is a narrow question on security, and the other is a very broad question on the All Ireland Forum. Therefore, may I address myself to my question? Although the other one is very important, they are separate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Get on with it."] Never mind "Get on with it." I shall say what I want to say.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I have called the hon. Member to deal with his question No. 10.
    Mr. Flannery: I was doing that, Mr. Speaker. The interruptions came from Conservative Members. I want the right to ask my question. Therefore, may I ask the Secretary of State, despite the interventions from two sources, what he will discuss, when the All Ireland Forum report comes out, other than security if, within that report, there is a suggestion that all-Ireland questions—not only those concerning Northern Ireland—could be found to be relevant to the cause of democracy in Northern Ireland which is so sadly lacking at present?
    Mr. Prior: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman if he thinks that his question should not have been taken with the other one. However, the two questions do have a marked similarity.
    The answer to his supplementary question must be that I think we had better wait until we see what is in the Forum report before we comment on it.
    Rev. William McCrea: Does the Secretary of State agree that the Member for Suffolk, South (Mr. Yeo) has delivered a calculated insult to the long-suffering, citizens of Northern Ireland by his reference in the question to the Prime Minister of Ireland? Does the right hon. Gentleman also agree that Northern Ireland is as much a part of the United Kingdom as England, Scotland and Wales, over which neither Garret FitzGerald, nor any other Irish Republican Prime Minister has any jurisdiction?
    Mr. Prior: All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that in the House we are entitled to hold our own views, whether or not they are liked in all parts of the House. This is part of the United Kingdom Parliament and, as such, hon. Members can express their views.
    Mr. Winnick: Does the Secretary of State agree that the possibility of achieving any political progress or success in Northern Ireland is increasingly remote unless

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    steps are taken towards having closer ties with the Republic of Ireland? When the Forum proposals are published, does the Secretary of State intend to give the most serious consideration to them and to follow them up with a meeting with the Irish Prime Minister?
    Mr. Prior: Of course we shall give serious consideration to the proposals, but as Opposition Members recognise, they must be seen on the basis of the consent of the Northern Ireland people, on which the Opposition have always taken the same view as we have.
    Mr. Silvester: I recognise that anything coming out of the Forum has no official standing on this side of the water, but will my right hon. Friend take what steps he can to ensure that anything worth while is given adequate consideration by all relevant parties over which he has control?
    Mr. Prior: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Archer: Is the Secretary of State's impression the same as mine: that the great majority of people in both traditions are fed up to the eyebrows with the spite, suspicion and back-biting within constitutional politics and with the terrorism outside? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that what people want from their political leaders is the vision to make a new beginning? If so, has he made known to the Forum that it has a great opportunity to set an example in understanding and generosity? If that is forthcoming, will he encourage the leaders in the Loyalist tradition to respond?
    Mr. Prior: I hope that there will be a response from everyone who has the true interests of all Northern Ireland people at heart. Often it seems that the only point on which the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland or their leaders can agree is to attack the Secretary of State.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: This takes up time. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to give notice that he will raise the matter on the Adjournment?
    Rev. Ian Paisley: It is connected with the question.
    Mr. Speaker: Not at this stage. I shall take points of order at the end of Question Time.
    Later—
    Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Questions Nos. 5 and 10 were taken together. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) got it right for once when he talked of——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I am not responsible for what was said by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery). The hon. Gentleman's point of order must be addressed to the Chair.
    Mr. Flannery rose——
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough must sit down. Points of order must be for me. I cannot allow an extension of Northern Ireland questions. We did extremely well today to deal with 22 questions.
    Rev. Ian Paisley rose——
    Mr. Flannery: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) is correct for once—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough must sit down. I must say to the whole House that we have a very important foreign affairs debate in front of us. It is rare to have such an opportunity. Many right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak. I cannot accept points of order of a frivolous nature, which have nothing to do with me.
    Mr. Flannery: It is not a frivolous point of order.
    Rev. Ian Paisley rose——
    Mr. Speaker: I must say to the hon. Member for Antrim, North that his point of order must be one on which I can rule.
    Rev. Ian Paisley rose——
    Mr. Flannery: I have not finished my point of order, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must sit down.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Question No. 5 on today's Order Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for Suffolk, South (Mr. Yeo), refers to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland meeting the "Prime Minister of Ireland." That is incorrect, as there is no Prime Minister of Ireland. The leader of the hon. Gentleman's party is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!] It is a pity that she is not Prime Minister of Great Britain and the whole of Ireland. Nevertheless, the question is inaccurate. It should refer to the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic.
    Mr. Speaker: I have noted what the hon. Gentleman has said. Does the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough wish to raise a point of order on which I can rule?
    Mr. Flannery: Questions Nos. 5 and 10 are entirely different. My question No. 10 deals with the broad political situation whereas question No. 5 relates only to the security situation, important though that is. It seems singularly unfortunate that the two questions were taken together, as people were forced to come in on No. 5 who wished to come in only on question No. 10.
    Mr. Speaker: That is exactly what the hon. Gentleman said when he asked his supplementary question. I told him then that he would no doubt receive an answer to it from the Secretary of State, as indeed he did.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Parryasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to publish the recent unemployment figures in the Province.
    Mr. Butler: The Northern Ireland unemployment figures at 9 February were published in both Northern Ireland and United Kingdom press notices released on 1 March. The next set of figures will be published on 29 March.
    Mr. Parry: Is the Minister aware that in June 1979 the unemployment figure for the Province was 59,600 and that by February this year it had grown to 122,357? Is he further aware that unemployment in Northern Ireland has

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    risen from 10·4 to 22 per cent.? Is that not an appalling record for the Government, particularly since over 23,000 people have been unemployed for up to two years and 20,538 for more than three years? Are the figures not an indictment of the Government's policies in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Butler: The figures are a reflection of the seriousness of the situation. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman gains by drawing attention to the figure of 10 per cent. or more in 1979, because that was way above the standard in Great Britain. It shows that at that time the problems in Northern Ireland were very much worse than in the United Kingdom on average, as they are today. That is why the Government, and their predecessors, put in a large amount of public money and effort in other directions to try to overcome the problems.
    Mr. Soley: Does the Minister realise that that is a pathetic answer in view of the Labour Government's record in Northern Ireland? Has the hon. Gentleman considered the employment potential of an energy conservation scheme for housing in Northern Ireland? If not, why not?
    Mr. Butler: We have an energy conservation scheme. I have announced new measures, which are one part of the whole story. Energy costs in Northern Ireland are higher than elsewhere. If the hon. Gentleman wants to trade the performance of one Government against another, I remind him that, although for part of the Labour Government's time there was a subsidy to keep energy costs down, it was not as great as the present subsidy which keeps costs down to the highest level operating in Great Britain.

    Noraid
    Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had on the fundraising activities of Noraid; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Nicholas Scott): The Government are concerned about any form of support that may be given to terrorist organisations, and my right hon. Friend spoke to the American ambassador about these matters recently. The Government are grateful for the recent forthright condemnation of terrorism in Northern Ireland by President Reagan.
    Mr. Adley: As the Under-Secretary has apparently arranged for Senator Gary Hart to visit this country shortly, where he will, of course, be welcome, would my hon. Friend consider it appropriate, in view of the temptation for presidential candidates to pander to ethnic minorities during presidential election year, to suggest not only to Senator Hart but to all of them that they have no more business meddling in the internal affairs of Northern Ireland than we have, shall we say, meddling in the internal affairs of Puerto Rico?
    Mr. Scott: I think that my hon. Friend may have somewhat exaggerated my influence over some of these matters. When political leaders from any part of the world come to this country we take every opportunity to explain to them the facts of life about Northern Ireland.
    Mr. McQuarrie: My hon. Friend will have noted that Dr. FitzGerald had the courage to go on American
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    television to condemn those who subscribe to Noraid for the purchase of arms to be used against our people in Northern Ireland. I am sure my hon. Friend will advocate the congratulations of the House for the courage of Dr. FitzGerald in that respect.
    Mr. Scott: There is nothing new about Dr. FitzGerald expressing his revulsion, as he described it, at the activities of the IRA and those who, by any means, lend it support. We are grateful for this most recent example of that expression.

    Political Parties (Talks)
    Sir John Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent consultations he has had with representatives of political parties in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Prior: Since I last answered questions I have met the leaders of the Ulster Unionist party, the Democratic Unionist party and the Social Democratic and Labour party and other elected representatives from the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland.
    Sir John Biggs-Davison: Since legislative devolution does not appear to be imminent, will my right hon. Friend share with the House the result of his consideration of the proposals of the Ulster Unionist party for administrative devolution?
    Mr. Prior: The Ulster Unionist party has not put forward to me firm proposals on devolution. Therefore, I am not in a position to share them with the House. If parties have views that they wish to put to me in a formal way they are always welcome to do so, but the right place for these discussions to take place to start with is in the Assembly.
    Mr. McNamara: Was it not the Stormont Administration that caused the trouble in the 60s and before? Will the right hon. Gentleman be very careful when he talks in terms of administrative devolution, because that might be a backdoor way of returning to the awful practices of old?
    Mr. Prior: These are very much the sorts of problems that there are in this and other proposals. That is why they need to be discussed in the Assembly. They need to secure a degree of cross-community support or, in other words, widespread acceptance.

    Schools (Rationalisation)
    Rev. Martin Smythasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will use the same criteria throughout the system when schools are rationalised.
    Mr. Scott: Yes, Sir. It has always been made clear that rationalisation of school provision should be examined by all school authorities, having regard to the same educational criteria.
    Rev Martin Smyth: Is the Minister prepared to accept that in working-class areas of Belfast, particularly in South Belfast and around Park Parade, they see a different set of criteria, used to favour middle-class, so-called integrated education, where a school with a smaller number on the rolls is being given Government backing whereas one with a larger number of pupils is being closed?
    Mr. Scott: I am aware that integrated education is not in everybody's favour in Northern Ireland at the moment. Lagan college, the school to which the hon. Gentleman is referring, has entry in only three forms for secondary provision but is well set to reach the level of enrolment that will fully justify the provision of a curriculum suitable to the needs of those children. There is no such future for Park Parade.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Is it not a fact that the number of students at Park Parade school is greater than the number attending Lagan college and that when houses are built in the area by the Housing Executive and by housing associations there will be more children available to attend that school? Can the Minister tell us whether he is signing an order to make the Gaelic-speaking school a maintained school?
    Mr. Scott: What I am concerned with is the viability of the schools and their ability to offer the children who attend them a viable curriculum. I am satisfied that Lagan college will be able to do that. Having looked at all of the evidence, including that of the Housing Executive, I am not satisfied that Park Parade will be able to do so. My Department is still considering the development proposal for Bunscoil Ghaeleagh.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Is the Minister aware that many people in Northern Ireland wish every success to Lagan college, which is making a brave attempt to bring about integration in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Scott: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that comment. All of those who have been behind the project for Lagan college, particularly the principal, and who have worked hard to establish its viability, deserve our congratulations.
    Mr. Soley: In view of the Minister's encouraging comments about Lagan college, may I ask whether he thinks that the experiment can be monitored to see whether it could be extended?
    Mr. Scott: The Department monitors the development of all schools in Northern Ireland and we shall certainly look at Lagan college. The Government have always said that if there is a widespread demand in an area for integrated education they would support it.

    Security
    Mr. Proctorasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. John David Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what changes there have been in the security situation since 1 December 1983; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Prior: I refer my hon. Friend and the right hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) earlier today. Since 1 December 1983 there have been 25 deaths in incidents connected with the security situation in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Proctor: What representations has my right hon. Friend's Department received from the Irish ambassador in London about the closure of border roads in Fermanagh, and what action has been taken as a result?
    Mr. Prior: The Irish ambassador made representations about the closure of the three crossings and we told him, as we told the Irish Government, that where there was a necessity to make closures, we would carry them out.
    Mr. John David Taylor: As the Army is the security force responsible for the defence of the frontiers of the United Kingdom, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to explain why, since 1 December 1983—since when there has been an increase in the number of terrorist attacks—there has been a reduction in the Army presence along the border?
    Mr. Prior: It would be wrong of me to give any indication of the numbers of troops used along the border, because some would be in an overt capacity and some in covert positions. However, I assure the House that there are no reductions in troops operating in the border area.
    Rev. Martin Smyth: Is the Secretary of State aware of the anxiety in Belfast, particularly among staff at the Royal Victoria hospital, over the fact that, until even 11 o'clock last evening, Sinn Fein supporters were patrolling in level 2 because they did not trust the security forces? Why has this state of affairs been allowed to continue, to the annoyance of the staff?
    Mr. Prior: That is a matter for the RUC, which is in control of what happens at the hospital.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Why was a similar situation allowed to exist at the Ulster hospital, when a terrorist who was taken into that hospital was guarded by Sinn Fein members, and when every person entering the hospital to go to that ward was followed in by two members of Sinn Fein?
    Mr. Prior: I am told that that is quite untrue and that the RUC has been in charge on all occasions.
    Mr. Archer: As the security situation has obviously had some effect on the morale of prison staff, may we be told how many ministerial visits there have been to the Maze prison since the escape last year?
    Mr. Prior: I cannot say offhand, but I have visited the Maze prison, as has the Under-Secretary, on at least one occasion within the last three weeks, and we shall be making frequent visits to the prison when we think that there is need to do so.

    All Ireland Forum (Report)
    Mr. Winnickasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he intends to meet the Government of the Irish Republic once the proposals of the forum are published.
    Mr. Prior: I met the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Irish Republic on 16 March and I expect to meet him or other Ministers from time to time within the framework of the Anglo-Irish Inter-governmental Council to consider matters of common concern.

    Departmental Staff (Assembly Visits)
    Mr. J. Enoch Powellasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many domiciliary visits were made in 1984 to date by officials of the Northern Ireland Office to Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
    Mr. Prior: Two, Sir. The meeting places were mutually agreed for the convenience of those concerned.
    Mr. Powell: Is the right hon. Gentleman not embarrassed by the fact that officials of his Department intervened with members of political parties in Northern Ireland in a way which would not be tolerated or even imagined in the rest of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Prior: The answer to that is no, because they did not intervene in that particular manner. These were specific requests, which dealt with two particular marches at Ballynahinch, and that remains the position. Officials of my Department have instructions that, if they visit people to inquire about these matters, it will be in order and right of those inquiries always to be reported to the leaders of political parties.
    Mr. Maginnis: If the Secretary of State believes that, he obviously has no knowledge of visits that were made, among others, to myself, prior to the setting up of the Assembly, when certain incentives were held out by officials from the Northern Ireland Office for me to give whole-hearted support to the Assembly.
    Mr. Prior: This may be a matter entirely of the hon. Gentleman's subjective judgment.

    Emergency Provisions Act
    Mr. Fatchettasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects to receive the Baker report about the Emergency Provisions Act; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Prior: I have just received the report of Sir George Baker's comprehensive and thorough review of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973. I am extremely grateful to him for the care and energy with which he has undertaken the task. Arrangements are now being made to print the report and I hope that it will be possible to publish it before the Easter recess.
    Mr. Fatchett: Will the Secretary of State ensure—although this may not be within his power—that there is an early debate in the House on the provisions of the Baker report? Will he also give some indication whether the report will lead to any new legislative proposals by the Government?
    Mr. Prior: On the second point, I think that we had better wait until the report is published. The first point is, of course, a matter for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, but I would have thought it better to wait for a few weeks, at any rate, before discussing the report in the House.
    Mr. Soley: When the Secretary of State brings the report before the House, will he bear in mind that this is a terribly long time for emergency legislation to have been in effect? Will he examine it carefully to see whether he can make radical changes in the present legislation, particularly in view of its devastating effect on all parts of the community, not least on confidence in the rule of law?
    Mr. Prior: I think that the hon. Gentleman is now prejudging the report.

    Security
    Mr. Lathamasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the security situation.
    Mr. Prior: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) earlier today.
    Mr. Latham: Following an answer that he gave me the other day, will my right hon. Friend confirm that, despite rumours to the contrary, the Ulster Defence Regiment has an important and continuing role to play in security in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Prior: Yes, Sir. I would like to make it absolutely clear that the UDR has an important role to play in the security of Northern Ireland. The whole House, I think, warmly applauds the bravery and courage that its members have shown in carrying out their duties.
    Mr. A. Cecil Walker: In view of the recent developments in conection with the McConnell murder, is the Secretary of State satisfied with the vetting procedure for civil servants employed on the security side of the Civil Service?
    Mr. Prior: This is a matter that needs to be kept under constant revision. Generally speaking I am satisfied, but obviously we must look at our procedures again.

    Young Persons (Education and Training)
    Mr. Beggsasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement indicating the measures which have been taken by the Department of Education and the Department of Economic Development to ensure that there are appropriate educational and training provisions for 17-year-olds in Larne.
    Mr. Butler: The only, but very important, measure taken jointly by these two Departments has been the youth training programme, which was introduced in 1982. Although unemployed 17-year-olds do not have the guarantee of a YTP place, a range of training places are provided in Larne to cater for as many eligible 17-yearolds as seem likely to apply.
    Mr. Beggs: Does the Minister of State accept that it is not good enough to say that sufficient places are provided for the number of young people who are likely to apply? Is he aware that, despite the fact that representations have been made, that proposals have been submitted and that there has been criticism in the youth training programme plan, 1983–84, about the absence of opportunity, no real action has been taken to make proper provision for 17-year-olds? Will he give me an assurance today that he will look at the proposals presented by Larne college of further education for the provision of a work preparation unit for 17-year-olds?
    Mr. Butler: I give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that I think that the number of places available is sufficient. If doubt emerges about that, we shall have to consider the matter again. I shall let the hon. Gentleman have full details of the way in which places are made available.

    Security
    Mr. William Rossasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the present level of security in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Prior: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I have already given.
    Mr. Ross: In an earlier answer the Secretary of State said that he was giving consideration to the position that now exists as a result of the fiasco over the closure of cross-border roads. As a result of that reconsideration, has he scored off the list any of the roads that were formerly to be blocked? Will he explain to the right and learned Member for Worley, West (Mr. Archer) the effect that the blocking of a cross-border road has on terrorists, for example, who are fleeing by car to the Republic, as they would have to abandon the vehicle at the road block and have difficulty getting another?
    Mr. Prior: I did not hear part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. The best thing that I can do is write to him about it.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mr. Fatchettasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 March.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today. I shall also have the great pleasure of making a presentation to your predecessor, Mr. Speaker, to mark his distinguished service to this House.
    Mr. Fatchett: Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity during the course of the day of getting in touch with the English Rugby Union and ask it to call off the proposed rugby tour of South Africa? Will she point out to it that such a tour will bring comfort to a morally repugnant regime while putting in danger the Commonwealth Games, which are planned to be held in Edinburgh?
    The Prime Minister: As I have said in the House previously, the Gleneagles agreement has been affirmed. It is a voluntary agreement, but I must make it clear that we genuinely discourage the rugby tour of South Africa because of the damaging consequences that it will have for the Commonwealth and international sport. My hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for sport has made it clear that that is our view.
    Mr. Rippon: First, may I congratulate the Prime Minister on the firm stand that she took at Brussels? Does not the way in which the partners in the Community have withheld the funds to which we are already entitled demonstrate how right she is in pressing for a long-term, stable budgetary structure? At the same time, will she give the House an assurance that she will continue to negotiate patiently and that the Government do not contemplate any retaliatory, illegal action that might undermine our position, bearing in mind that the future of western Europe cannot be considered only in terms of nicely calculated "less or more"?
    The Prime Minister: Like my right hon. and learned Friend, I regret that France and Italy have blocked, so far, our 1983 refunds. We have learnt this morning that the Presidency of the Community intends to hold a special meeting of Foreign Ministers in Brussels on Tuesday next on the basis of the texts that were on the table of this week's European Council. We welcome this initiative. In
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    these circumstances, the Government will take no action that might damage the prospects of decisive progress next week. Our objectives in the negotiations will be to obtain an agreement that meets the requirements that I have outlined to the House. In the meantime, we shall not ask the House to consider a Supplementary Estimate for an advance payment to the Commission. We shall consider our position on that request in the light of the outcome of the meeting to which I have referred.
    Mr. Kinnock: The news of the special meeting is welcome, but how many special meetings are there likely to be? As £500 million of our money is at stake and the strong need for fundamental reform is in question, is the Prime Minister going to go on as if nothing had happened?
    The Prime Minister: I answered the right hon. Gentleman's question before he asked it, except that part in which he asked how many special meetings there will be, which by the very nature of the issue is entirely unpredictable. We learnt this morning that the Presidency intends to hold a special meeting. I said that the basis of the meeting will be the texts that were on the table at the end of this week's European Council. I hope that the progress that we have made will be taken further at that meeting. As the right hon. Gentleman is already aware, the refunds are not due, by agreement between us, until 31 March. I hope, therefore, that the meeting will unblock the refunds. I also hope that we will get a good deal further on a matter that was before us at Brussels, that is agreement on a system and amounts for a long-term settlement of the Community's budgetary problems.
    Mr. Wardasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 March.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Ward: Has my right hon. Friend noticed that in recent weeks hundreds of new jobs have been created in high technology in England, Scotland and Wales? Does that not further demonstrate that the economic recovery is under way?
    The Prime Minister: That is very well demonstrated. The recovery will be considerably assisted by the Budget that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer presented to the House a short time ago. Gross domestic product figures published on Tuesday show that average measures of GDP, as forecast by the Chancellor, rose 3 per cent. in 1983. It was recently announced that the United States company Commodore is to employ about 1,000 more people in Corby in a –20 million expansion which will make that Corby factory the biggest microcomputer plant in Europe.
    Dr. Owen: Although I welcome the decision to meet on Tuesday and hope that it is possible to bridge the narrow divide on the Presidency text, is the Prime Minister aware that she did not answer the question posed by her right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon)? Surely the Cabinet has come to a conclusion on the constitutional impropriety of withdrawing any form of payment. Do the Government realise that that is not a lever in the negotiations, but a question of law and order? The House and the country are entitled to a clear-cut view from the British Cabinet that this is unconstitutional and will not

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    be considered, and to an assurance that we will not see the Prime Minister "hotting" this issue up by reference to the acolythate press.
    The Prime Minister: If anyone is hotting up the issue, it is the right hon. Gentleman. I gave the House the answer and informed hon. Members about the decision that was taken this morning. In the circumstances, the Government will take no action that might damage the prospect of decisive progress next week. Our objective in these negotiations will be to obtain an agreement that meets the requirements I outlined to the House. Why, then, is the right hon. Gentleman trying to "hot up" the issue?
    Mr. Dixonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 March.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Dixon: Is the Prime Minister aware that long-term unemployment has risen from 375,000 in 1981 to almost 1·2 million today, which represents 40 per cent. of those unemployed? Is she aware that 600,000 people have been unemployed for more than two years and 300,000 for more than three years? Is she further aware that, of the unemployment total, 575,000 people are aged 50 and over and have little prospect of finding a job under the present Government? When will the Government recognise the plight of these unfortunate people and extend long-term supplementary benefit to them?
    The Prime Minister: I am aware of some of the figures that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. The Government are aware of the arguments for extending the long-term rate to the unemployed who are under the age of 60. However, the cost would be £480 million, and for that reason alone it must be ruled out.
    Mr. Sackville: As a major American manufacturer is bidding against British industry to supply the Royal Navy with its primary surface weapon—the anti-ship missile—does my right hon. Friend agree that the decision on the contract must be taken not merely on marginal price comparison based on fanciful future exchange rate assumptions, but with regard to its impact on British jobs, British exports, British technology and British control of our major weapons systems?
    The Prime Minister: No decision has been taken on which of the several contenders will be selected to meet the Royal Navy's requirement for a second-generation, surface-to-surface guided weapon. Tenders are still being considered by the Ministry of Defence and the Government will wish to take fully into account all relevant factors, including those mentioned by my hon. Friend, before making any announcement.
    Mr. Donald Stewart: On the EC negotiations, is the right hon. Lady aware that her reply to the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) will demonstrate to many people that, despite the rhetoric of resolution, the way has been prepared for another sell-out? As the idea of retaining our own funds has been described as unconstitutional, does the right hon. Lady believe that that is the case under the British constitution?
    The Prime Minister: I am not prepared to give a legal opinion on a question that has not yet arisen and on a decision that has not yet been taken. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will approve the action that the Government
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    are taking. As the Presidency of the Community, which was most helpful to us last week in trying to draft a system and in putting it to the Community, has called another meeting based on identical texts, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that the best way forward is to try to seek the settlement that we want on our budgetary refunds and to try to secure at that meeting, in conjunction with a decision by the European Assembly, a decision to unblock the refunds, which we hope will be paid by 31 March.
    Mr. Howard: Did my right hon. Friend have an opportunity this morning to listen to the "Today" programme on which the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) declared that he would have accepted the deal on offer in Brussels on Tuesday? Does that not confirm that if the alliance parties had had anything to do with such matters the gap would have been closed, not by skill, as was suggested yesterday by the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen), but by surrender?
    The Prime Minister: I had exactly the same feeling when I heard exactly the same thing on exactly the same programme.
    Mr. Terry Fieldsasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 March.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Fields: How does the Prime Minister serrate her stand on Britain's EC contributions and the suggestion of breaking European law with the hypocrisy of the attacks on Liverpool city council and her unwillingness to concede £30 million to the Liverpool people? Is she saying that another 5,500 jobless people in Liverpool do not worry her? Does she understand that the massive demonstrations on 29 March in Liverpool and elsewhere, and the struggle of the miners and other workers, are a complete refutation of the policies that she and her pathetic Government are pursuing?
    The Prime Minister: I am not sure whether I heard the hon. Gentleman's entire question, but I understand that the first part was about the EC and the second part about Liverpool. Nothing that I said about the EC contravenes the law in any way. I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has given me a chance to mention Liverpool. During the past three years capital expenditure in Merseyside, under the Department of the Environment's main programmes, has reached about £650 million. That is the measure of the support that has been given by the Government, or through the Government, to try to help matters in Liverpool.
    Mr. Butterfill: Can my right hon. Friend confirm a report that has reached me that the British high commissioner in Lagos was recently attacked with a machete and that there has been a serious breakdown of law and order in the diplomatic quarter of Lagos, with four recent armed robberies? What representations has she made to the Government of Nigeria to ensure that security is restored in that area?
    The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend surmises, it is the duty of the host Government to protect those in the diplomatic services. Had there been any difficulty, I would have drawn that to the attention of the host Government. I shall inquire further into my hon. Friend's allegations.
    Mr. Madden: Does the Prime Minister anticipate giving evidence shortly to the Select Committee on Members' Interests?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Tim Smithasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 March.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Smith: Has my right hon. Friend seen the latest long-term economic indicator, which has risen for the fourth successive month, suggesting that economic recovery will continue well into 1985? Do not the
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    indicator and the medium-term corporation tax strategy in the Budget make it clear that industry has more opportunity now to increase profits, investment and jobs than for many years?
    The Prime Minister: I think that, on the basis of low inflation and the Budget announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor a few days ago, industry is better placed to recover, to make good profits, to expand and to give new jobs, than for a very long time. What is more, I believe that that recovery is sustainable. We have given a tremendous boost to jobs by taking off that terrible tax on jobs which was put on and increased by the Labour Government.

Select Committees
Mr. Doug Hoyle: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to seek your guidance. Has any Member of the House the right to refuse to attend a Select Committee if requested to do so?
Mr. Speaker: I believe that if a Select Committee asks an hon. Member to attend, it is his duty so to do. [Interruption.] If that is not so, I shall take refuge in saying that I should like to look into the matter—[Interruption.] Order. Speakers are not infallible. I shall look into the matter and write to the hon. Gentleman.

Royal Assent
Mr. Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Act:
Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1984.

Business of the House
3.37 pm
Mr. Speaker: I should inform the House that I intend to limit business questions to 20 minutes so that we may get on to the important foreign affairs debate, in which a large number of Members wish to participate.
Mr. Neil Kinnock: Will the Leader of the House state the business for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Biffen): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 26 MARcH—Progress on remaining stages of the Trade Union Bill.
Consideration of Lords amendments to the Town and Country Planning Bill.
TUESDAY 27 MARcH—Progress on remaining stages of the Rates Bill (1st Allotted Day).
Motion on the Public Records (Commission for New Towns) Order.
WEDNESDAY 28 MARcH—Completion of remaining stages of the Rates Bill (2nd Allotted Day).
Motions on the Redundant Mineworkers and Concessionary Coal Order and on the mineworkers pension scheme.
THURSDAY 29 MARCH—Completion of the Rating and Valuation (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill.
FRIDAY 30 MARCH—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY 2 APRIL—Completion of Report stage of the Trade Union Bill.
Mr. Kinnock: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but I must first express the Opposition's disappointment that an earlier time of day could not be found to debate motions on the redundant mineworkers scheme as it has major implications and will attract wide public interest.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for arranging today's foreign affairs debate, but I should make it clear that the Opposition believe that we must have an early opportunity to debate the Brussels summit, the affairs of which become increasingly interesting as each day passes.
Mr. Biffen: I entirely accept the right hon. Gentleman's view that the recent European Council meeting should receive the attention of the House. I hope to be able to indicate a date and time for such a debate in my next business statement.
In an ideal world, of course, the regulations concerning the mining industry would be debated at an earlier time of day. Nevertheless, I believe that a helpful debate can take place at the time arranged.
Mr. Terence Higgins: Although the EEC Supplementary Estimate is not included in next week's business, is my right hon. Friend aware that the evidence taken on the subject this morning by the Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service may well be of interest to the House and that it is hoped to publish it before the weekend?
Mr. Biffen: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I am sure that the whole House will be interested to study the evidence that he hopes to publish.
Mr. Dick Douglas: The Leader of the House will have heard my hon. Friend the Member

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for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) request a Standing Order No. 10 debate on the Levene report. Could he persuade the Secretary of State for Defence to make his statement to the House on the substance of that report, because it is causing extreme disquiet to many of my constituents who are employed in naval establishments?
Mr. Biffen: I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to that point.
Mr. Nigel Forman: Can the House look forward to an early debate on the Government's Green Paper on the long-term trend of public expenditure, preferably soon after the Easter recess?
Mr. Biffen: Alas, I have to say no. The Green Paper concerns a long-term trend and it may be a short while before we can have a chance to debate it.
Mr. Peter Shore: In view of the great constitutional importance of the question that was referred to during exchanges with the Prime Minister, and in view of the obvious confusion not least in the minds of the right hon. Members for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) and for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins), will the Leader of the House consider whether a statement could be made early next week clarifying the relationship between the withholding of payments to the EC by this country and United Kingdom law and United Kingdom treaty obligations? It is very unwise for the House to proceed, and surely it is foolish for the Cabinet and the House to debate these matters, until the underlying constitutional and treaty questions have been definitively stated.
Mr. Biffen: The prospect of an educational process involving the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) and the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) is, of course, most enticing for the House. However, I doubt whether it could be contained within the narrow parameters of a statement. Perhaps we ought to try to include it in the more general debate we hope to have before the European summit.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Would my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that before any firm decision is made by the Secretary of State for Social Services this House will have an opportunity of debating the Select Committee report on the Griffiths report on management of the Health Service? Would he also give an assurance that the House will have an opportunity to debate any package that is agreed within Europe prior to its becoming effective and being implemented?
Mr. Biffen: I gave a reasonably encouraging, I hope, reply to a request for a debate on the Griffiths report made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short) last week. If I can go no further than that this afternoon, at least I am not recoiling from it. On the question of a debate upon the range of issues that may eventually be decided in the context of the European Council meeting. I must ask my hon. Friend to await the outcome of the debate, which I hope will take place fairly soon.
Dr. David Owen: In view of the right hon. Gentleman's well known objectivity on the
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issue of the European Community treaties and his voting record in 1971 and 1972, surely he should not turn down the invitation about having a debate on this issue on the basis of a prior statement from the Attorney-General on the constitutional and legal implications. Since the Prime Minister has singularly failed in her responsibility to tell the country what is the rule of law, we are surely entitled to expect the Attorney-General to tell us what are our obligations under the treaty and what is the rule of law.
Mr. Biffen: Among my many generous instincts is a protective instinct towards the right hon. Gentleman, and I was seeking to protect him from the hands of right hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches.
Mr. Harry Greenway: Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that following Tuesday's meeting in Brussels a statement will be made very shortly, that the possibility will be considered of withholding £1 in contribution for each unrebated £1 if the rebate due is not made, and that the House will be told the legal implications of that?
Mr. Biffen: I cannot go beyond what was said by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on these matters, but of course I will draw the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary to the point that my hon. Friend makes.
Mr. Brian Sedgemore: Will the Leader of the House arrange for a debate on the advice being given to the Prime Minister that it is no longer possible for the right hon. Lady and Conservative Members of the Select Committee on Members' Interests to continue with their cover-up of the Oman scandal, unless the right hon. Lady is prepared to shovel all the blame on to her son?
Mr. Biffen: There is no question of a cover-up. I see no prospect of having the sort of debate that the hon. Gentleman seeks.
Sir Kenneth Lewis: Until the other Foreign Ministers in Europe take note of what is obviously the line being taken by the Government arising out of the summit, will my right hon. Friend do something that is within his control—promise hon. Members that there will be no more late night debates on motions to take note of EC matters?
Mr. Biffen: I think that the House has a lively interest in debating Community matters. Therefore, I cannot give the undertaking sought by my hon. Friend. Either the debates should not take place, or, if they do, they take place in prime time.
Mr. Alexander Eadie: Has the Leader of the House seen early-day motion 595 dealing with the miners dispute, in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends?
[That this House is seriously disturbed at the deteriorating situation in the British coalfield; deplores the recent dictatorial attitude of the National Coal Board resulting in demands being made on area directors to cut coal output by 4 million tons in one year, thereby increasing the pace of pit closures without consultation, threatening 20,000 mine-workers' jobs and worsening industrial relations beyond repair; advises that coal imports of 4½ million tons would be reduced and opencast coal-mining curtailed to achieve the same objective; and,

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whilst recognising that the National Coal Board's goal of bringing supply into line with demand would be delayed, believes it would be achieved without conflict, confrontation, heartache and misery in our coal-mining communities.]
As the right hon. Gentleman has not shown any intention to announce a debate on the issue, will he bear in mind that the massive expense of the police presence on the picket lines has proved to be counter-productive? Will he discuss the matter with the Home Secretary with a view to withdrawing that massive, expensive presence?
Mr. Biffen: I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's argument, but I shall draw the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary to his anxieties. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has noted that there is to be a debate on the coal industry, albeit on a rather restricted and narrow basis, on Wednesday evening.
Mr. Jonathan Aitken: In the unlikely event of my right hon. Friend acceding to the request of the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) to hold some sort of legal teach-in on the Common Market constitutional arrangement, will my right hon. Friend ensure that any such debate is replied to by a Minister of the Crown who believes in and upholds the sovereignty of this Parliament?
Mr. Biffen: I take note of that fascinating and constructive suggestion.
Mrs. Renée Short: Further to the right hon. Gentleman's reply to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), and in view of the widespread concern among the professions and trade unions within the National Health Service about the Griffiths report, will the right hon. Gentleman agree that there should be a debate at the earliest opportunity?
Mr. Biffen: I appreciate that point. However, I am sure that the hon. Lady will understand that, at this stage, I cannot give a precise date.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: In view of the detailed, investigative article by Mr. Paul Foot on page 9 of today's Daily Mirror, is it not highly desirable that the House should debate early-day motion 517 on the discrepancies of fact as between the submarine commander and the Prime Minister about the sinking of the Belgrano?
[That this House calls attention to the fact that contrary to the Prime Minster's reply on 21st February, Official Report, column 695, Her Majesty's Government have never explained the discrepancy between the statement in paragraph 110 of the Falklands Campaign: the Lessons, Cmnd. 8758, that the Conqueror detected the General Belgrano on 2nd May 1982, and the statement of the Commander of the Conqueror made in the book, 'Our Falklands War: the Men of the Task Force tell THEIR Story', by Geoffrey Underwood, introduced by Major-General Sir Jeremy Moore, K.C.B., O.B.E., M.C., that he sighted the Belgrano visually early in the afternoon of 1st May and followed the Belgrano for over 30 hours; and calls upon the Prime Minister either to make a statement to the House explaining this disparity, or to appoint a judge of the Appeal Court to determine whether her statement or that of the submarine commander tells the truth.]
Mr. Biffen: I do not have the advantage of having seen page 9 of today's Daily Mirror. I shall, of course, take
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note of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. He will realise that he made them in the presence of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary.
Mr. Michael Meadowcroft: Does the Leader of the House accept that the House faces a whole series of important debates on measures affecting local government? Will he undertake to publish the Bill or Bills that will deal with the abolition of the metropolitan authorities and the GLC before we complete the remaining stages of the Rates Bill, not least because the measures are interlocked?
Mr. Biffen: I cannot give such an undertaking, but I shall consider the matter.
Mr. Greville Janner: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on 1 April the code of the Commission for Racial Equality will be brought into effect and will introduce ethnic monitoring into all employers' organisations? As answers from Ministers to me show that not one Government Department intends to comply with the new rules, or is in a position to do so, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange either for a debate on the matter or, at least, a statement to be made by the Secretary of State for Employment?
Mr. Biffen: I am not sure that I can immediately accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's assertions, but I will have the matter investigated and will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment to his concern that a statement should be made.
Mr. James Callaghan: May I ask the Leader of the House not to dismiss lightly the request of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) for a statement on the treaty obligations that we have undertaken? If we cannot have a debate on the issue—and I understand that—it would not be beyond the competence of the Government, and it would be for the convenience of the House, that a short White Paper should be published giving the Government's view on what our treaty obligations are and what legislation would be necessary to rid us of them.
Mr. Biffen: I accept that point, which is given added gravity in that it is made by the right hon. Gentleman. will certainly consider the matter.
Mr. David Winnick: As the statement issued by the Prime Minister's office after last Thursday's Question Time raises a number of important questions about the Oman affair—questions which ought to be answered—will the Leader of the House provide time for an early statement to be made by the Prime Minister? Does he believe that, in raising these issues, Labour Members are indulging in the politics of the gutter, or does he agree with the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath), who said in a radio interview that from everyone's point of view these questions need to be settled?
Mr. Biffen: I leave Labour Members to choose the standards by which they wish to be judged. I can offer no time for a debate next week.
Mr. Max Madden: Is the Leader of the House aware that considerable concern has been expressed since the Attorney-General's statement last

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Friday which, in the view of many hon. Members, represents a serious reduction of civil liberties in the free movement of British citizens in this country? Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for an early statement to be made so that questions can be put to the Attorney-General, and also for a statement to be made to the House about the payment of the costs of mobilising police forces in recent days?
Mr. Biffen: I will refer those points to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Is the Leader of the House aware that many National Health Service workers feel that the Government are deliberately obstructing the holding of the fullest and widest consultations on the Griffiths report? Why has he not been more forthcoming and promised an early debate on the report which would give health workers throughout the country an idea of what is happening in Parliament?
Mr. Biffen: I cannot promise what I cannot deliver. I have intimated that there should be a debate on Griffiths, but I cannot yet say precisely when it will take place.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: One accusation that can be made about Labour Members is that most of them would rejoice if the Common Market disintegrated. Will my right hon. Friend therefore ensure that every Government statement that is made from the Dispatch Box on the matter is made by a Minister who believes wholeheartedly in the European ideals?
Mr. Biffen: Statements will be made by Ministers who have a measured interest in our national interest which they believe to be wholly consistent with our treaty obligations.
Mr. Simon Hughes: It would be helpful to the House if we could have a statement before next Thursday on our obligations under the European Community treaties. The House would be glad to know that the Government have a consistent policy on law-breaking, whether that policy is applied to Europe or to Liverpool city council.
Mr. Biffen: I cannot say any more than I said in my reply to the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Callaghan).
Mr. John Ryman: The Leader of the House has been asked to make authoritative legal statements on two specific topics this afternoon. In view of his replies on 20 March, reported in columns 905 and 908 of the Official Report, will he consider whether he really understands the sub judice resolutions of the House of 23 July 1963 and 28 June 1972? It is as plain as a pikestaff that the right hon. Gentleman does not understand the sub judice resolutions and that he merely hides behind them in order to avoid giving proper answers.
Mr. Biffen: Those are hard words, but I am sure that they are charitably meant. I shall seek the hon. Gentleman's guidance.

Foreign Affairs
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Neubert.]
3.54 pm
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe): As you have pointed out, Mr. Speaker, this is intended to be a general foreign affairs debate—in fact, the first since 3 November. I do not propose to speak at length on Community affairs. The House will no doubt want to have an opportunity to debate those matters in the near future. However, I should like to say just a few words about the follow-up to this week's European Council.
After the failure to reach agreement at the Athens Council, all member states were determined to do their best to avoid a repetition of that frustrating and frustrated meeting and to make decisive progress in Brussels this week. There had been a major effort by the French Presidency, and by President Mitterrand himself, to assemble the basis for agreement. The fact that we came close to an agreement this week makes our disappointment all the more acute.
Our starting point was the declaration of the Stuttgart Council, which called for measures to deal with the recurrent budgetary problems of certain member states; in other words, for a system which would ensure that an enduring problem received a lasting solution.
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out yesterday, we accepted a French Presidency proposal for a system linked to relative prosperity in the enlarged Community, and we were prepared to negotiate the figures on which that system should be based.
What other member states were finally prepared to agree was not a system but a further series of ad hoc refunds of 1,000 million ecu per year for five years. The value of this would, of course, have declined sharply as our unadjusted net contribution rose, as it is bound to do if the 1 per cent. ceiling is lifted. What was finally on offer did not represent a systematic, equitable and lasting approach to the problem—and the gap which separated us was more important than the figures alone would suggest.
We are not, however, discouraged or diverted from our determination to reach a negotiated outcome to these difficult problems. Real progress was made, and it will be important to build on it. That is also the view of the French Presidency. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said at Question time, the French Presidency has called a special meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council next Tuesday. I welcome that initiative and regard it as a clear signal of the Community's determination to take advantage of the real progress made in Brussels at the beginning of this week and not to allow the prospect of early decisions to slip away.
Today I want to concentrate on some of the other issues with which I have been closely involved since November's debate.
Sir Kenneth Lewis: If, on Tuesday, there is a chance of agreement, will that be done without waiting until the June meeting of Ministers, so that an agreement can be sewn up before the European elections? That is what many of us would like.
Sir Geoffrey Howe: I am sure that many people hope to see progress as soon as possible, and that is one of the possibilities that we must hope for next week.
The other topics on which I wish to comment are the middle east, East-West relations and the transatlantic partnership, which remain of great concern to us and to our partners and allies. I shall also say something about two self-contained issues of particular importance to us—Hong Kong and the Falklands.
Before corning to those questions I should like to say a word about one subject which featured prominently at the meeting of Commonwealth Heads of Government in New Delhi last November—southern Africa.
At the time of that meeting the situation in southern Africa looked distinctly bleak. Since then there have been some encouraging signs that things may be moving in the right direction. The recent agreement between South Africa and Mozambique is a case in point. We have welcomed that as an important achievement, and we hope that it will provide a solid base for practical co-operation, of the kind which we have been urging on all sides in the region.
On the other side of the continent, in Namibia, there have been all too many false dawns. But here, too, there are encouraging signs—the present disengagement by South African forces from Angola, the new Joint Monitoring Commission, the release by South Africa of leading Namibian prisoners, and the hope that the recent talks between the Angolans and the Cubans may prove to be productive.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce) will have more to say about southern Africa if, Mr. Speaker, he catches your eye later in the debate. Meanwhile, I know that the House will welcome the act of clemency by the Government of Angola which led to the release and repatriation of the British mercenaries. The House will share the Government's concern about the British citizens who have been taken captive by UNITA forces. We call on those responsible to arrange for their speedy, safe and unconditional release.
Mr. David Winnick: Nelson Mandela and his colleagues have been imprisoned for about 20 years. Do the Government intend to press the South African authorities to release Mandela, without any condition that he should be sent into internal exile? Do the South African authorities recognise the deep anxiety felt in many countries and by many people about the fact that Mandela has been imprisoned for so long?
Sir Geoffrey Howe: On a number of occasions, we have rightly drawn the South African authorities' attention to that matter, through the United Nations and elsewhere.
Hong Kong is one of the most striking examples of successful enterprise in the world. Its success can be attributed to a unique synthesis of British and Chinese talent. We are now engaged with the People' Republic of China in negotiations over the future of Hong Kong, with the common aim of enabling this enterprise to continue and flourish.
The people of Hong Kong are understandably anxious to be able to preserve the vital elements in their society. They most wish to see the prospect of continuity in the systems and the freedoms that characterise Hong Kong life today. They wish to be certain that the essential foundations of their way of life will be maintained into the
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future; that the basis of the current legal and social systems will continue; that Hong Kong's economy will remain open to world markets; and that they will be able to speak, meet, and travel as they wish. The Government fully understand that concern.
We must and do bear in mind the realities of the situation and the unique historical and geographical circumstances of Hong Kong. At present continuity is assured by British administration, but in 1997 Britain's lease of 92 per cent. of the territory comes to an end. In those circumstances, it becomes possible, and indeed desirable, to visualise other ways in which continuity can be assured.
Our task, in the light of those realities, is to ensure the necessary continuity in Hong Kong's systems. That will present many challenges: for us, for China, and, of course for the people of Hong Kong. It is important to remember that we are conducting these negotiations against the background of our friendly relationship with the People's Republic of China, and with an agreed common objective—to ensure the continuing stability and prosperity of Hong Kong.
In the second, more detailed phase of negotiations, which began in July last year, 10 rounds of intensive talks have now been held. The 11th will take place on 26 and 27 March. Those talks have gone ahead in a useful and constructive manner. Nevertheless, great patience will be needed by both sides so that we reach an agreement that is satisfactory to all involved. Our determination to press ahead and to reach that goal is undiminished, and we are getting on with the talks as quickly as we can, but I cannot predict precisely how long they will take.
We shall continue to keep in close touch with Hong Kong opinion, notably through the Governor and his Executive Council who will be visiting London again early next week for further consultations with Ministers. My hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham, the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, paid another very useful visit to the territory between 25 and 28 February, when he again met representatives of a wade range of local opinion. These, among others, included members of the Executive and Legislative Councils, the urban council and district boards, as well as community leaders and representatives of a variety of social and professional groups. Such visits are an important means of keeping in close personal touch with opinion in Hong Kong.
I shall be visiting China in mid-April for talks on Hong Kong with the Chinese Foreign Minister and other Chinese leaders. From there I shall travel on to Hong Kong for further discussions. I am looking forward to both these visits.
Our present task, in short, is to examine with the Chinese Government how the necessary continuity may best be assured. We are, and remain, open to any proposals that will ensure the continuing stability and prosperity of Hong Kong and will be acceptable to this House, to the Chinese Government and to the people of Hong Kong.
We are still negotiating. The shape of the final package that we bring to this House for approval will be crucial. Hong Kong has always been an evolving society. It will continue to evolve. Our aim is to reach an agreement which will assure genuine continuity and autonomy for Hong Kong, and the preservation of its way of life.
Sir Anthony Kershaw: I wish every possible success for the negotiations which my right hon. and learned Friend is conducting. Will he assure the House that his right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary is studying the implications, which may be important to our nationality and immigration legislation?
Sir Geoffrey Howe: I assure my hon. Friend that that question, among many others, is the subject of consideration among my colleagues, including the Home Secretary, and myself.
Mr. Tom Clarke: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Sir Geoffrey Howe: I must not give way too often, but I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Clarke: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. Just this morning, I and my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) returned from Hong Kong. Will the Foreign Secretary confirm the point that was made so eloquently last week by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, that the final decision on these matters will be taken by the British Parliament and not necessarily by the British Government? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman therefore considering a timetable for this year?
Sir Geoffrey Howe: I am bearing the timetable in mind, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the matter. I know that he has just returned from studying these issues in Hong Kong. As I have said, one of the important conditions is the acceptability of the outcome to Parliament. We must take that aspect fully into account.
The major development in the Falkland Islands has come with the election in Argentina of President Alfonsin. The Government have welcomed, as has the House, the restoration of democracy in Argentina. The return to legitimate government and to the rule of law provide an important element of common ground between Britain and Argentina. I hope that the coming months will show that we share a real interst in re-establishing practical and sensible arrangements for relations between the two countries, and that we share a commitment to progress through peaceful means. We have made it clear to President Alfonsin that our wish is to normalise our relations with his Government. Better relations would be in our interests, the interests of the islanders and in the interests of Argentina.
Let there be no mistake. We stand firmly by our commitments. We shall do what is necessary to defend the islands and the rights of the islanders. We shall promote conditions in which the islanders can live peacefully under a government of their choosing. We shall continue to provide help for the development of the islands' economy.
As the House will remember we followed up the Prime Minister's message to President Alfonsin at his inauguration by putting a number of specific ideas to the Argentina Government on 26 January. We have since received a considered reply. We have been studying that carefully, and will be responding to it shortly. There are practical ways in which progress should be possible, but we will not—as we have already made very clear—negotiate about the sovereignty of the islands.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: On 5 March a remarkable book was published by Secker and Warburg Ltd. It was written by two extremely reputable
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heavyweight people—Mr. Desmond Rice and Mr. Arthur Gavshon. I do not expect the right hon. and learned Gentleman to go into detail, but is the Foreign Office considering any reply to their charges?
Sir Geoffrey Howe: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but I do not intend to deal with that matter now. I wish to move on to other matters. A number of people will be studying that book.
The middle east is a subject of continuing concern to the international community as a whole. The problems of the middle east would be important enough if they were simply regional, but there is a continuing risk of their becoming more than that.
The Gulf war is an obvious example. We should like to see it ended for the sake of the people of Tran and Iraq, who are the principal sufferers. However, beyond that, the war is a potential threat to the Gulf region as a whole. The interests of Britain and of the West more generally are thus also at risk. The risk of disruption to oil supplies should not be exaggerated, but it is there, and it would be foolish to ignore it.
Britain's interests in the Gulf are not confined to that. Many of the countries in the region have links with this country stretching back many years. We may no longer have direct responsibilities for their defence, but we continue to enjoy close and valuable political relations. In some cases these include treaties of friendship, with provision for consultation in time of need.
Some 90,000 British nationals live and work in the area. There is substantial British investment there, and the countries of the Gulf area are now among our most important overseas markets. In 1982 the States of the Gulf Co-operation Council accounted for almost £3 billion worth of British exports, so there are many reasons why the security of those states is of importance to us.
It is clear that any escalation of the fighting in this region would carry major risks. Unfortunately, recent developments give fresh grounds for concern. There have been reports of attacks on civilian targets in both countries. There have been a series of Iranian offensives in the central and southern sectors of the front, including the current fighting around the Majnoon Islands, and evidence has been advanced that Iraq has used chemical weapons against Iran. This question is now being investigated on behalf of the United Nations. I do not want to prejudge the results of the inquiry, but we will condemn without qualification any violations of the 1925 Geneva protocol.
On this same subject, let me very plainly repeat that there is absolutely no truth in the allegation that the United Kingdom has supplied chemical weapons to Iraq. The United Kingdom has supplied no lethal items to either side since fighting began. We have most certainly not supplied chemical weapons. The United Kingdom disposed of its supply 25 years ago, and, as the House will be aware, this country has been in the forefront of international efforts to ban the use and production of chemical weapons.
The Government's policy on the Gulf war remains one of strict neutrality. Beyond that, we want the war ended. A negotiated peace is desperately needed, but the belligerents will need to co-operate with the UN and with the other countries and organisations that have offered their good offices.

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We do not, at the moment, see an independent role for the United Kingdom in the process of mediation, but we support the efforts of the Secretary-General and his special representative, Mr. Palme.
Finally, although the House will not expect me to go into details about contingency planning, I should say that we are very much aware of the dangers and possible consequences of escalation, and that we shall be ready, if need arises, to work with others to protect our interests and those of our friends. As I made clear in the House yesterday, all diplomatic channels should be exhausted before considering any question of military or other action to clear the straits. If events did move in that direction, it would be important to ensure that the Soviet Union had no misunderstanding of our intentions. My hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham, who has just returned from talks with the United States Government, will be ready to say something more on this general subject.
The Lebanon remains another potential flashpoint. That is one very good reason why we have been ready to work with our friends, and with the Lebanese Government, to help bring a degree of stability to the area.
The multinational force served that purpose. I have no doubt that we were right to participate. For over a year our contingent made a practical contribution—and one appreciated by all parties in the Lebanon—by patrolling and by guarding the ceasefire commission. I am glad to pay tribute once again to the distinction and courage with which it carried out its duties.
The MNF gave the Lebanese Government a breathing space. We hoped that it would prove enough to enable it to make necessary reforms. Unfortunately, that is not how things turned out, and the latest failure of the Lebanese leaders to forge a new national consensus at Lausanne is a very real disappointment.
Following the conclusion of the Lausanne talks, we seen no possibility of the British contingent being used again in Beirut. We have therefore decided, after consultation with the Lebanese Government, to withdraw it to the United Kingdom. We have informed our partners in the multinational force of our decision.
These developments put the spotlight even more clearly on the United Nations. We have long been of the view that the United Nations should be more widely involved in peacekeeping in Lebanon. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister put that to the Secretary-General in September.
I have explored the possibilities with other Western Foreign Ministers, and with Mr. Khaddam in Damascus and Mr. Gromyko in Stockholm. I regret that, as a result of a Soviet veto, the Secretary Council was prevented from taking action to strengthen the United Nations observer force in Beirut last month. But I do not think that we should take this as the last word. As a first step, the UN could be encouraged to do more with the personnel already on the spot. We have also pressed for the United Nations contingent in the south of Lebanon—UNIFIL—to do more to help maintain security and to protect civilians. I know that the UN Secretariat is active in canvassing the options: it will continue to have our full support.
These more dramatic developments in the Gulf and Lebanon must not be allowed to overshadow the Arab-Israel dispute. It continues to colour the outlook of Arabs and Israelis alike, and to keep alive the risk of major conflict. After 36 years, and four wars, there is a
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temptation to conclude that the problem is insoluble and to direct our efforts elsewhere, but the stakes are too high, and our interests too directly engaged, to leave it at that.
The outlines of a negotiated settlement are clear: peace and stability for Israel, in return for withdrawal from territories which she occupied in 1967, and self-determination for the Palestinian people. The bargain is easily stated, but very difficult to strike. President Reagan's initiative of September 1982 offered a practical starting point for negotiations, and the Fez summit showed the the Arab states are willing to take the path of negotiation, but both sides have dug themselves into positions whose only common feature is that they make it harder, if not imposible, to get negotiations under way. For example, Israel's continuing and illegal settlements programme has convinced the Arabs that Israel is not seriously interested in negotiations on the long-term future of the occupied territories, and the Arab side—and particularly the Palestinians—has set back peace efforts by refusing to say clearly that Israel has rights which must be recognised in a final settlement.
Third parties can perhaps help to break down the barriers and bring the two sides to the negotiating table. I have no doubt that we should try. That is what we are taking every opportunity to achieve in our regular exchanges with the United States, and with our partners in the Ten, and with the parties themselves. I have myself had discussions recently in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria, and I plan to visit Israel as soon as dates can be arranged.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I have kept in very close touch with King Hussein of Jordan, who has a key role in searching for a settlement. We have supported his strenuous efforts to work out with the PLO an agreed approach to the negotiations. More generally, of course, there is a tradition of friendship between Britain and Jordan which we value very highly. There could be no more fitting illustration of that than the state visit which Her Majesty The Queen is to pay to Jordan next week.
Let me turn now to East-West relations. I do so with a sense of keen anticipation, because, when my hon. Friend, the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) had occasion to speak about this in the House on 9 March, the Opposition found little to complain about in the Government's policy. That was almost two weeks ago. I look forward to discovering what position the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) is thinking of taking today.
The Government's position is consistent and clear. We believe in talking to the Russians on the basis of confidence—confidence in our alliance, confidence in our capacity to defend our way of life, confidence in the principles on which our society is based, and confidence in the strength of our democracy.
One of the lessons of the last few chilly years—and I emphasised this in my speech at the opening of the Stockholm conference in January—is that negotiations on arms control cannot bear the full weight of East-West relations. They cannot flourish in a political vacuum, or make progress in an atmosphere of misunderstanding and mistrust. So we must try to broaden the dialogue and increase the range and frequency of our contacts with the Soviet leadership. The next steps will be for Mr. Gromyko's deputy, Mr. Kornienko, to visit London next week for consultations with my hon. Friend the Member

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for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind), and I shall be visiting Moscow at the invitation of the Soviet Government in July.
Mr. Norman Atkinson: Does the Foreign Secretary recollect that recently Lord Home said that neither Britain nor he had any trust in the Russians? That was followed by an excellent statement in the House by the Prime Minister. Presumably the Prime Minister agreed entirely that there could be no trust in the Russians. The Foreign Secretary now says that it is a matter of overcoming these problems of distrust. Therefore, should he not now make a statement saying that he, for one, has absolute trust in the Russians?
Sir Geoffrey Howe: I should certainly hesitate to respond in that way to the invitation, even though it is proffered by the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson). The point is that an atmosphere of mistrust between both sides exists. That atmosphere has been built up over many years. However great my speaking power at the Dispatch Box, I do not think that I would succeed in dissolving that cloud of mistrust by asserting a single affirmative.
We must try to broaden the dialogue. That task must be sustained. The next step is for Mr. Gromyko's deputy, Mr. Kornienko to come to London next week to meet my hon. Friend the Minister of State.
Mr. Greville Janner: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Sir Geoffrey Howe: I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me, but he had the opportunity to ask questions yesterday.
I shall be visiting Moscow in July. We believe that it is in our interests as well as in theirs that Soviet leaders should have as much first-hand knowledge of the West as possible. Meetings will help, but they will bear fruit only in time, and only if we see to it that they involve a great deal of calm but plain talking.
Other Western countries take a similar approach. There is no question of trying to regiment our opinions, but the message which we want to get across should reflect the broad sense of common purpose which exists in the Alliance. We must be firm on the essentials, and consistent in what we regard as essential. Sweeping awkward questions under the carpet will not help, nor will it help if we fail to stand up for our principles.
For our part, we shall make plain the concern which is felt worldwide about the Soviet military build-up. The reopening of the MBFR talks in Vienna last week was a welcome step, but the Russians should return to the negotiating table at Geneva as well.
We shall continue to reject the specious arguments which the Soviet leaders used to justify their massive occupation of Afghanistan. The Soviet Union should have nothing to fear from allowing the people of a small neighbouring country freely to determine their own future. Nothing less can be acceptable to the international community.
The countries of eastern Europe as well should be able to choose the policies which best reflect the wishes and aspirations of their people. Nowhere is that more important than in Poland. We shall continue to measure
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—by the yardstick to which the Soviet Union agreed at Helsinki—the extent to which the Soviet Union applies the relevant principles of the final act and Soviet performance in human rights.
At the same time, we shall seek to open up areas of potential agreement and co-operation. For example, we have good working relations with the Russians over the non-proliferation treaty and Antarctica. Our aim will be to lengthen that list. There is considerable scope for progress on regional issues. The middle east comes to mind as an area where greater co-operation between East and West could make an enormous contribution to peace and stability. As President Reagan said in his important speech on 16 January, peace requires both East and West to work together to defuse tensions and regional conflicts.
I do not have—I emphasise that no one should have—inflated expectations of what any single meeting, or even a series of meetings, can achieve. Even in areas where common interests are acknowledged, Soviet policy works in a time-frame which can be, and is, frustrating to the West. We must draw the right conclusions from that, and show ourselves ready for the long haul.
The key to better East-West relations lies in a strong and confident transatlantic relationship. Some right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition benches know that very well, but they seem to have lost any sense of shared responsibility in the matter. I get the impression sometimes that they think the worst of every proposal by the Alliance and the best of every one by the Soviet Union. I am struck by how many speeches from the Opposition Benches make a virtue of condemning this country's friends and praising its opponents. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East has all too often been ready to encourage that tendency. The result is that the Labour party has tended to become a cheer leader for policies which would weaken the defence of this country and the Alliance as a whole.
It was not always like that, of course. In 1981 the right hon. Member for Leeds, East argued that
"to eliminate all nuclear bases and facilities from Britain, whether British or American would not … diminish the danger of war. On the contrary, it would weaken the United States' commitment to the Atlantic Alliance and this would increase the risk of war in Europe."
The right hon. Gentleman was right to warn of the danger three years ago. Is he prepared to do the same today? The leader of his party is not. The leader of the Labour party has advocated precisely those policies which the right hon. Member for Leeds, East warned would increase the risk of war, and precisely those policies which the Labour defence spokesman in another place said he did not believe to be the policies of the Labour party. I look forward to hearing the right hon. Gentleman squaring the circle today.
The Government will continue to take a very different approach. Where transatlantic differences arise, our aim will be to find solutions to problems which can be solved and to manage those which cannot. These differences should not be ignored, but they need to be kept in perspective. Our common interest is not weakened because, for instance, the United States is developing its relations with Japan. European Governments are and should be doing the same. The Alliance is not weakened by the United States pursuing its global responsibilities with vigour—on the contrary. The danger to the Alliance lies not in its members developing other links, but

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in the apparent temptation not to put enough effort into the Alliance itself. Shared responsibility is crucial to the defence relationship between the United States and its Allies; and that relationshp in turn remains crucial to our security.
Dr. Kissinger in his recent article in Time magazine reminded us—with characteristic colour—that the question of a bigger European role in the defence of Europe is one of continuing interest in the United States. There is also a feeling in Europe—it is a feeling which I share—that closer European co-operation on security issues would be desirable. There is merit in examining that idea very thoroughly. There are a number of purposes for which such co-operation could be developed. We could increase the degree of political consultation on security-related issues. We could co-operate more over strategy, on resources and on force contributions, and there would be much to be gained from increased co-operation in the development and manufacture of arms. We are very ready to work with other European countries in these areas. The important questions seem to us to be those of substance rather than procedure.
The best way forward may be to define what needs to be done and then to identify the institution or institutions best fitted to tackle that job. We shall support new developments where they are helpful, but we shall want to ensure that they serve to strengthen the Alliance as a whole.
The Alliance has served us well over the last 35 years. The anniversary which we shall be celebrating later this year will also be an occasion to pay tribute to the retiring Secretary General, Dr. Luns, whose contribution has been outstanding. Anniversaries are a time for looking forward as well as back. We welcome the fact that Lord Carrington has been appointed to succeed Dr. Luns. His qualities are already well known to this House and we shall give him our full support. Our aim will be to work with our Allies on both sides of the Atlantic to ensure that we remain at peace for the next three-and-a half decades and beyond.
This debate is intended to focus on the substance of foreign policy. I have tried to do that in the areas that I have covered. The object of our foreign policy is to protect and promote British interests and to ensure the stability and prosperity of the United Kingdom. We do that in conjunction with our partners and allies and with our friends in the Commonwealth and elsewhere. Our policies are consistent; they are soundly based; and they have proved successful. These are the lines on which we propose to continue.
4.28 pm
Mr. Denis Healey: As shadow Foreign Secretary I begin by offering quasi-fraternal congratulations to the Foreign Secretary on his victory in Cabinet this morning. Whatever the merits of the issue, there can be no doubt that it is a good thing if the Foreign Office begins to have some control over our foreign policy. Some of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's remarks suggest that he is beginning in other areas to recover a degree of responsibility for our international relations which properly rest with him.
I shall not follow up what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said about the fiasco yesterday in Brussels because we were assured by the Leader of the House a few minutes ago that we shall shortly have an opportunity of a full day's debate on our relations with the Community.
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I shall deal with most of the other issues that he raised because we may not have an opportunity for some months of debating them again and they are of immense importance. It is about four months since we last debated foreign affairs as a whole and in the intervening period the world has assumed an even bleaker aspect than it had at the beginning of November.
The Geneva arms talks have broken down and the contact between the super-powers on major issues has broken off. Mr. Andropov has died and a new Soviet leadership has a somewhat provisional air, while in the United States the presidential election campaign has sent American foreign policy into its quadriennial state of suspended animation. In any case, the blunders made by the United States in the Lebanon have brought American foreign policy in the near east to total collapse, a collapse that was underlined by the fact that King Hussein's patience with Washington finally snapped a week ago.
In the Gulf area the war between Iraq and Iran, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman rightly said, may be approaching a climax in a massive bloodbath as terrifying in its human implications as the great battles of the first world war on the Somme and at Passchendaele and which could threaten 20 per cent. of the world's oil supplies—the 20 per cent. that is carried through the straits of Hormuz. Meanwhile, there is the threat of war between Libya and Egypt over the Sudan arising out of an incident whose origin is, to say the least, most obscure. There is continued trouble over the Polisario claim on Moroccan territory in the Sahara.
In another part of the forest, Washington's policy in central America is in increasing difficulty. A Soviet ship has just been damaged in Nicaraguan waters by a mine that was supplied by the United States and whose planting was organised by the Central Intelligence Agency. The elections in El Salvador this weekend will almost certainly make the situation there worse, not better. In southern Africa, Pretoria's campaign of destabilisation has forced the front-line states into an unwilling neutrality in the fight against apartheid in South Africa, although I hope that if properly handled it will at least lead to independence for Namibia within the United Nations framework. The fact that Cuba has already withdrawn some troops from Ethiopia and is discussing again the possibility of withdrawing from Angola may open the way to happier developments in that part of the world.
The paralysis or collapse of American policy in so many parts of the world puts a heavy responsibility on America's European allies to try to guide western policy into wiser and more productive paths, but the fiasco of the Common Market summit in Brussels, following the fiasco of the Athens summit, has certainly not created a better climate for a European initiative on the wider issues. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will be able at the meeting of Foreign Ministers next week to address the attention of his colleagues to some of the wider issues, but l fear increasingly that the obsession on all sides with the financial problems inside the Common Market is casting as damaging a blight on Europe's approach to the wider problems as the Vietnam war for so many years cast on the possibility of constructive American policies in other parts of the world.
I want to spend most of my time talking about relations between East and West. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), when replying to the

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debate, will deal in more detail with the problems of southern Africa and Latin America. I should like to make points on some secondary issues at the outset.
In regard to Hong Kong, I am glad that the Foreign Secretary gave the House some insight into the Government's conduct of negotiations. After a bad start with the Prime Minister's visit to Peking and Hong Kong, the Government are handling the negotiations sensibly, and the Labour Opposition have no intention of making a difficult task more difficult by exploiting obvious opportunities for party purposes. I hope that in return the Foreign Secretary will give the House a further report on developments after his return from his visits to China and Hong Kong in April, because it is most important that he should be able to carry the House with him, granted, of course, the limitations on his freedom to disclose all details of negotiations at any time.
Turning to some of the problems in central America—an area that the Foreign Secretary did not mention in any way in a speech of 40 minutes—I wrote to the Foreign Secretary some weeks ago to deplore his decision to send observers to the Presidential elections in El Salvador this weekend. We divided the House two years ago on a similar decision to send observers to the elections in 1982. The Division we asked the House for on that occasion proved fully justified in the event, because the observers sent by the then Foreign Secretary were unable to make an independent assessment. Their conclusion that the elections were fair has made Her Majesty's Government the laughing stock of Latin America.
It is no good the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) shaking his head, because the best evidence for the truth of what I say is Mr. Armando Rodriguez, a Right-wing lawyer, who is the head of the central elections council that is organising the elections on this occasion. The hon. Gentleman has obviously read the report of his remarks. According to The Times, he said:
"This time the deads won't vote. In the elections two years ago dead people not only voted once, but sometimes twice … Often there were three times the number of votes in a ballot box than there were people in a town".
Mr. Rodriguez estimated that more than 25 per cent. of the 1·5 million votes cast in 1982 were fraudulent. Those were the elections that the official observers of Her Majesty's Government found to be fair.
Unfortunately, this weekend's elections in El Salvador are unlikely to produce any better guide to the opinions of the people. A poll by El Salvador's Catholic university the other day showed that under 4 per cent. of those qualified to vote would vote out of commitment to any party or candidate; the rest would vote solely out of fear. The Foreign Secretary must know that there is general agreement on both sides of the Atlantic—in Washington no less than in Europe—that these elections are likely to put into the presidential palace either a psychopathic killer, to quote the words of an earlier American Ambassador in El Salvador, or a man who will be either ejected or enslaved by the armed forces. It would have been far better if Her Majesty's Government had not sought to contaminate the reputation of Britain by appearing to sanctify this macabre charade.
The real danger in central America is that if President Reagan's policy collapses in El Salvador, as more and more people in Washington are beginning to fear, he may
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seek revenge by stepping up his attempt to bring down the Government of Nicaragua on the very eve of its elections. The dispatch of the Green Berets to Honduras and the mining of Nicaraguan ports represent a dangerous escalation of this conflict, and one that the Government should publicly deplore. It is the financing of terrorism on a far larger scale than the Soviet Union or Libya have ever attempted in the West.
President Reagan's policy in central America, as in the Lebanon, is based on a total misunderstanding of the realities of the region. Only a few days ago President Reagan made a speech—I quote the Washington Post service in the International Herald Tribune—in which he said:
"Like a roving wolf, Castro's Cuba looks to its peace-loving neighbours with hungry eyes and sharp teeth … What we are witnessing to the south is a power play by Cuba and the Soviet Union, pure and simple."
How reminiscent that is of his view that all the problems in the Lebanon were caused by a conspiracy between Syria and the Soviet Union to subvert a natural democracy.
Even if the Foreign Secretary's vision of these areas has been somewhat weakened in recent years by the withdrawal of British missions from two of the key countries—a withdrawal which I welcome and which I see has been somewhat modified in recent days by the dispatch of chargés d'affaires to El Salvador and Nicaragua—he must know that what is going on in central America is essentially a historic revolution against centuries of poverty, dictatorship and colonial oppression. That is the unanimous view of all the other countries in the region, not least the Government of Mexico, who could not by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as a Marxist dictatorship.
America's friends in Europe have a duty to join the growing number of Senators and Congressmen in Washington, and a growing number of ordinary Americans throughout the United States—according to the polls, now a majority—who are seeking at the eleventh hour to drag the United States back from a catastrophe in central America which could be even more far-reaching in its effects than its recent catastrophe in the near east. It is vital, in the interests of the Alliance, that the Foreign Secretary should abandon his doormat diplomacy in central America.
Further south, Her Majesty's Government have a more direct responsibility. I was glad to hear the right hon. and learned Gentleman again today pay tribute to President Alfonsin, who has shown courage and skill in using his political majority to establish civilian control over the military and to try to end the foreign quarrels through which the military tried to distract the Argentine people from the consequences of the domestic dictatorship.
The Argentine Government have, I understand, already come close to ending their dispute with Chile—a dispute which has lasted for far longer than their dispute with Britain over the Falklands—and they are now seeking to restore normal relations with the United Kingdom, relations which were disrupted by a military attack on the Falkland Islands which President Alfonsin had the great courage to oppose when he was in opposition before the general elections in Argentina. I understand—the Foreign Secretary was rather inexplicit about this—that President Alfonsin is prepared to exchange diplomatic representatives with Britain and to begin talks

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on normalising relations, leaving the question of sovereignty over the Falkland Islands on one side for the time being.
It seems only common sense that we should seize this opportunity with both hands. It is ridiculous for the United Kingdom to conduct its relations with a most important democratic Government in Latin America through Brazil and Switzerland, when it is conducting its relations with a collapsing military dictatorship in Chile through embassies in both countries.
It is particularly damaging to pursue this weird policy at a time when the problem of Argentina's debt is perhaps the most dangerous immediate threat to the world financial system. I hope, incidentally, that the Foreign Secretary will persuade his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to answer the letter on associated problems recently sent to him by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies).
I come to what I think should form the main subject of this debate—relations between East and West. I fear that I may disappoint the Foreign Secretary if he expected me to launch an all-out attack on him. I should like to wait for the wounds in his feet to heal before I undertake so unkind an enterprise. We may find ourselves sharing some common ground in this area, however, because the Foreign Secretary has won another victory over the Prime Minister in persuading her to modify the absurd and damaging rhetoric with which she blazed her trail through Canada and the United States a few months ago. Congratulations again to the Foreign Secretary for that success. Let us hope that it is lasting.
It is clear—I hope that the Foreign Secretary will agree—that the death of Mr. Andropov is unlikely to bring any immediate change—or perhaps any change—in Soviet foreign policy. It is fairly clear that Gromyko and Ustinov were running Soviet foreign policy for six months before Mr. Andropov died, and it is certainly clear that they are running it today.
On a personal note, I stood for three hours in a temperature of minus 17 deg. Centigrade on the freezing granite of Red Square quite close to the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary recently. As I looked up at the venerable figures at the top of the mausoleum—Mr. Tikhanov, Mr. Ustinov, Mr. Chernenko and Mr. Gromyko—I began to see a certain merit in gerontocracy. I said to myself, "Another four years and maybe Healey will be in with a chance again."
Unfortunately, it seems almost certain that the Soviet Government will make no real effort to negotiate with the United States on major issues until after the American presidential election. It is easy to understand this, however much we may deplore it, because the Department of Defence in Washington has assumed growing influence over American foreign policy since the humiliation of the State Department in the Lebanon—a domination which is well documented in an account in today's International Herald Tribune of Mr. Richard Perle's successful vetoing of four useful initiatives which might have been taken recently in the sphere of disarmament. Therefore, the Russians probably feel that there is not much point in a discussion at this time.
I deplore their decision, because the world will not stand still for the next nine months. The interregnum will be 12 months if there is a change of President in the November elections in the United States. In particular, NATO will not, and must not, stand still for the next 12
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months. I was glad that the right hon. and learned Gentleman devoted part of his speech to a discussion of NATO, and I propose to do the same. I hope that hon. Members who find military questions boring will have patience while I traverse some of the critical decisions which the Alliance is now approaching.
Mr. Norman Atkinson: We all anxiously share my right hon. Friend's sentiments about reaching old age. To do that, the world must secure some nuclear disarmament, and the only way to achieve that is for the Western nations to start talking across the table with a degree of friendship, having some trust in the Russians. Does he agree that if we are to pursue the policies that he is advocating, we should start with a declaration to that effect?
Mr. Healey: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I do not think that declarations of that sort, which are frequently made on both sides of the iron curtain, make very much impact on real relations between the two sides unless they are accompanied by successful negotiations on real issues. What worries me is that decisions may be and are being taken all the time that can make future negotiations either more difficult or easier.
Turning to some of these problems, the deployment of cruise and Pershing missiles in western Europe, whether we are for or against it, has opened the lid of that Pandora's box because all sorts of issues that NATO has been able to survive by fudging for the last 30 years are now subjected to intense and informed debate on both sides of the Atlantic. The peace movement is no longer only a moral revulsion of ordinary people against the obscenity of nuclear war; it is increasingly influenced by hard thinking about hardware and strategy on the part of people with wide military and civilian experience in defence, as Ministers of Defence, chiefs of staff and so on.
The reason for this is the introduction of a whole range of new weapons which can carry nuclear or conventional warheads—the cruise missile is the best known example—accompanied by guidance systems of an accuracy which was unthinkable even a few years ago. The NATO military, who always prefer to find a strategy for a weapon rather than a weapon for a strategy, are already thinking up ways of using these new weapons. We have a clutch of new strategic concepts for striking deep into eastern Europe and western Russia with nuclear and conventional weapons.
The best known of these ideas is the concept of air-land battle which has already been adopted by the American army and which determines the manoeuvres of the American army in Germany at this moment. It is this concept of air-land battle that the American SACEUR—General Rogers—is trying to have accepted by NATO as a whole. There are, however, several difficulties in such a strategy which uses these new advanced technology weapons. It will be extremely expensive. The weapons may prove much less effective in the event than is now believed. Most important, nuclear escalation of any war in Europe is rendered far more likely and arms control far more difficult because it is impossible to tell in advance, until a weapon has exploded, if it is carrying a nuclear or conventional warhead.
Worse still, such a strategy may well appear to the Russians to open the way for NATO to initiate an attack against eastern Europe, especially if the United States is

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at the same time going ahead successfully with President Reagan's "Star Wars" defence against intercontinental missiles.
These matters are now beginning to exert a deep influence on thinking in the Communist world, no less than in the West. As an ex-Defence Minister, I see one of the problems as being that this area of strategy, which is of vital importance to the peoples of the world, has tended to be a monopoly for small groups of civilians and staff officers who have no real contact with the outside world at all and who work with very little supervision, even by their own Governments.
If the Americans are seriously going ahead with their attempt to produce an invulnerable defence against ballistic attack, and if they continue to speak, as President Reagan so often has, about using strategic superiority to deal with the focus of all evil, it must suggest to the men in the Kremlin that the United States might use its strategic superiority to launch an attack on the Soviet Union.
I ask the House to consider the facts that the Central Intelligence Agency and NATO staffs have recently made public. In the last four years, during which the United States increased defence spending by 40 per cent. in real terms—these are the American figures—the increase in Soviet defence spending has been only about 10 per cent. That followed four years, from 1976 to 1980, in which Soviet defence spending increased by only 2 per cent. a year and when there was no increase in spending on hardware.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: I have followed the right hon. Gentleman's remarks with great interest. Would he care to place his remarks in the context of the very disturbing analysis which appeared yesterday of the appalling disparity between Western and Soviet submarine strengths? How did the Soviets open up this disparity from an equal strength to 360:65 without spending more than the United States in real terms?
Mr. Healey: I have already had an exchange with another hon. Member on the Government Benches about these matters. I believe that the most reliable estimate of the relative strengths of the two sides is that published annually by the International Institute of Strategic Studies, which draws a very different picture. With respect, I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to a story by a naval officer in The Times yesterday about a new Soviet submarine. That is better seen in the perspective of the military balance, when it appears very much less alarming. However, I admit that both sides are pressing on with these new technologies very fast and that all the attempts of the United States to impose unilateral controls over the export of technology by asserting extra-territorial control of British or German firms can do no more than delay this development by about two years in the case of the Soviet Union. That is the argument for stopping the arms race and for taking disarmament more seriously than it has been taken so far.
Turning to another aspect of this problem, if the Americans go ahead with intercontinental missile defence, the Soviet Union will certainly follow the same path. There are signs that it is preparing to do so. In that case, small, national, independent nuclear forces, like those of Britain and France, will lose whatever political and military value they may still have.
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This is one thrust in defence thinking in NATO, and every month new decisions are taken to reinforce it. On the other hand, certainly outside the NATO machinery—and maybe inside, for all I know—another approach is increasingly supported by experts on both sides of the Atlantic. That approach would concentrate on making better use of NATO's existing forces which many think, although inferior to Soviet forces, are sufficient to deter Soviet conventional attack even now, but which could be made infinitely more effective by the adoption of better reserve systems, by fortifying the forward areas in central Europe and by organising defence in greater depth.
To pursue this trend—to get away from the need to rely on the use of nuclear weapons if only conventional weapons are used on the other side—would make arms control much easier rather than difficult. Unfortunately, as the Foreign Secretary must know, both these trends are at the moment most unwelcome in West Germany, which does not want to contemplate the possibility of any fighting on its territory, nuclear or conventional, and which is trying to get ever closer to the German Democratic Republic. Even Franz Josef Strauss is now competing with the Social Democrats to get in first with messages of good will for Herr Honecker.
Essentially, the Germans are holding up rational discussion of these matters because they really prefer the old tripwire of 30 years ago. That was supplanted by the theory of flexible response, which I helped to introduce at that time. That theory of flexible response is now losing credibility, partly because we now understand much better the effect of electromagnetic pulses on control and communications, and it makes it doubtful whether either side could control escalation in a nuclear war—the essence of the flexible response approach. It is also increasingly doubtful whether the United States is still prepared to commit itself to risk the survival of the American people in a European war.
It must also be said—I think that this lay behind what the Foreign Secretary had to say—that Europe does not want to remain as dependent on United States leadership as it has been over the past 30 years. In the past eight years American leadership has shown a lack of experience, consistency and prudence.
The most important factor which should compel a transformation of NATO's strategic theory and the approach of both sides to the argument is the belief of leading scientists in the West and the Soviet Union that if either side explodes only 1 per cent. of its existing nuclear arsenal, it will condemn its own people to a slow death by starvation and disease in conditions of arctic night, together with all other human beings living in the northern hemisphere.
If that concept of nuclear winter becomes accepted and is agreed to be well founded—I have not heard any argument against it in principle, although there are some arguments about the number of megatonnes that could be exploded without producing these effects—it must transform thinking on both sides of the iron curtain. It makes no sense for either side to continue to add nuclear weapons to an arsenal which is already 100 times larger than that which could ever be used in practice.
The concept of first strike against an enemy would have to be ruled out by both sides, for it would condemn to death even the successful initiator of a first strike, and it

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would have implications for civil defence and smaller national forces which I think we would all want time to think through.
The concept of nuclear winter has another important consequence to which the Foreign Secretary asked me to refer. It means that no country can spare itself destruction by neutrality or by refusing to have nuclear bases on its soil. If the concept of nuclear winter is found to be valid, the overriding need will be to ensure that no one fights a nuclear war, and, above all, that there is no war between the United States and the Soviet Union.
For us in western Europe, alliance with the United States will be more, not less, necessary for defence and deterrence and to influence the exercise of the United States, formidable nuclear power.
The time has come to start hard thinking on these issues for, wrongly handled, they could lead to the world blowing itself up. They could certainly split rather than unite the Alliance. Like the Foreign Secretary, I welcome the fact that Lord Carrington is shortly to assume responsibility as Secretary-General of NATO. His wisdom and experience will prove invaluable during the long period of agonising reappraisal through which I think the Alliance has to pass. Meanwhile, I think that the Prime Minister was right—I am always prepared to pay her honour where honour is due, as the House will have noted only the other day. If I have to criticise the right hon. Lady, I prefer to use the words of Conservative Back-Benchers rather than to invent rude words of my own, as I did on a previous occasion. I think that the Prime Minister was right in saying that there is probably little chance of important progress on the major issues of arms control between East and West in the immediate future, if only because of the imminence of the American presidential elections.
We must look for other issues on which we can develop understanding, especially regional problems. By far the most important regional issue which requires discussion with the Soviet Union is the clutch of problems in the middle east.
The collapse of American policy in the near east has not produced peace even in that area. The breakdown of the talks in Lausanne threatens a renewal of the civil war in the Lebanon, in which the very survival of the Maronite community may be at risk. It seems certain that the Shi'a community, which has played a comparatively minor role in previous fighting in the Lebanon, is likely to play a major role. I suspect that the elimination of the Murabitoun militia this morning, according to "The World at One", is the first step towards a concentration of Moslem power with the Shi'a community and the Druze.
We can comfort ourselves that Mr. Bern, the leader of the Shi'a community in south Lebanon, is a Western oriented man of great wisdom and moderation. However, I recollect that members of the Shi's militia, who roamed the streets in Beirut in recent weeks, were all wearing not Mr. Bern's picture but that of the Ayatollah Khomeini. That type of Moslem fundamentalism is having increasing influence throughout the Moslem world from Nigeria—where 1,000 people were killed in Shi'a riots in the eastern part of the country only the other day—to Indonesia. If the United States Congress is unwise enough to insist on moving the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the Americans and we might find that the burning of the American embassy in Islamabad recently
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will be repeated in at least 20 other Moslem capitals, and might be accompanied by the burning of British and French embassies as well.
I have warned the House before that we must take the resurgence of Moslem fundamentalism far more seriously than we have hitherto. If we have some of these honors in the Lebanon—they are all too possible—I do not feel confident that Washington is close enough to its European allies on how to deal with them, or has learnt enough from the lessons of its humiliation in the Lebanon over the past 12 months.
I should like to feel, with the Foreign Secretary, that there is a chance of making progress in finding a solution to the Palestine problem. However, I confess that I cannot see progress being possible so long as the United States adopts such a one-sided posture in the affair, one which led its oldest ally in the middle east, King Hussein, the other day to part brass rags with Washington, and so long as the Government in Israel are as inflexible as the present Government have shown themselves to be. If there is a change of Government in Israel in the coming months and a change in the American attitude after the election, new opportunities may arise, but I do not think that it is realistic to accept that they exist now.
The problem,, which we cannot avoid, and on which we must concentrate our efforts, is in the Gulf. I do not think that many of us have realised, or did not until very recently, that Iraq or Iran has only to announce that it has sown mines near Hormuz to send insurance rates up to a level that no oil company will be prepared to pay. I hope that the Minister who replies will talk about whether there is any joint consideration of this aspect of the problem, which I raised in the House yesterday and which the Foreign Secretary appeared to invite me to raise again today.
If the fear of the sinking of tankers leads to a prolonged interruption of the supply of oil through the Gulf, the consequences will be disastrous economically for Europe, which gets 46 per cent. of its oil through the Gulf, and for Japan, which gets 65 per cent. of its oil in the same way. In addition, in a prolonged interruption the price of oil is likely to rise to about $100 a barrel as against $30 at present, and the dollar is likely to rise to dizzy new heights. These two factors alone could bring the whole debt pyramid tumbling down, and with it the collapse of the commercial banking system in the Western world.
I do not wish to exaggerate the probability of a prolonged interruption. That must be avoided. Moreover, a short interruption could probably be survived without great difficulty because there are large stocks already available. If the United States makes its strategic stockpile available, as an American report suggested, the West could survive an interruption in the supply of oil through Hormuz for longer. When the Minister replies, I hope that he will tell the House whether arrangements have been made with the United States Administration to use the American stockpile in such a contingency.
I agree with the Foreign Secretary that we cannot rule out possible physical action by the West to keep the oil flowing through the Gulf. We must accept—I am glad that the Foreign Secretary does—that the Gulf is part of Russia's back yard. It is only half as far from the Russian frontier as Grenada is from the American frontier. If we could discuss the issue with the Russians successfully, it could be the beginning of wider understanding. The Russian interest in freedom of passage through inland

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waterways is greater than that of any other country, because almost its only access to oceans is through inland waterways—in the Baltic, the Black sea, and the Mediterranean.
The Foreign Secretary knows that the American determination to exclude the Soviet Union from major policy in the middle east is at the root of the Russians' refusal to allow the expansion of the United Nations role in the Lebanon. We may be able to discuss problems, which are common in other parts of the world, such as southern Africa and Latin America. It is urgent that we discuss with the Soviet Union—it cannot work without Soviet co-operation—limitations on the frightening increase in the supplies of weapons to Third-world countries, which neither side controls.
Since 1975 Russia has exported three times as many weapons to the third world as it did nine years ago. Russia and America have supplied arms to both Iraq and Iran. Those countries are fighting each other with arms supplied by both super-powers, the United Kingdom and other countries before the war began. The crowning irony is that the most likely scenario for a closure of the Gulf is of the Iraqis using their Super Etendards and Exocet missiles to blow up the Iranian terminals on Kharg island, and the Iranians retaliating by sowing French mines from French motor torpedo boats to close the Gulf.
Money can be made in this doubtful and dirty trade, but the dangers to the world, if it is allowed to continue as it has done for the past 30 or 40 years, deserve immediate action. Discussions about the immediate problems in the Gulf may open the way to co-operation in much wider areas. Britain and Europe could take an initiative in those areas now. We need not wait for the next American election. We can start now.
If we adopt the sombre outlook that I described as a challenge to action and an argument for co-operation, not confrontation, with the Soviet Union, we may yet succeed in turning the dismal course of the past few years right round. The British Government have a major responsibility to take such initiatives, and I hope that they will do so.
5.13 pm
Mr. Francis Pym: Many hon. Members will agree with the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) that the general world outlook is bleaker than it was a few months ago. His speech made that clear. No one would deny that times are not easy for Britain, Europe or the world. At the same time, there is no shortage of opportunities or of hope. At present our anxiety outweighs our confidence in their fulfilment.
There are four areas of substantial anxiety: the state of East-West relations, regional conflicts—some are of the utmost gravity—the attempted recovery from the world recession and the crisis in the European Community. Together the four areas threaten security and stability, not only in Britain, but in the world. I shall speak briefly about these problem areas and consider the spirit in which Britain should approach them.
In every case the problems will be eased for us only if they are also eased for other nations at the same time. We must uphold Britain's self-interest in each area—that
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goes without saying—but our ultimate self-interest is as much concerned with the interests of other countries as with our own purely national objectives.
I shall begin with East-West relations. The threat of the Soviet Union to the West and to the world is plain for all who wish to see it. The massive military build-up of the past decade inside the Soviet Union continues unabated. It involves every class of weapon and cannot be presented convincingly as a mere attempt to achieve parity with the West. Outside the Soviet Union, Russian attempts to destabilise countries in all corners of the globe also continue unabated. The involvement may not be direct, but the inspiration is unmistakeable. Meanwhile, the campaign of propaganda and misinformation persists and is aimed at sowing doubts within the West and diverting our attention from the danger. Neither the mission nor the methods have changed.
However, the Soviet Union undoubtedly has formidable internal problems: the economic problems of low returns on investment and the failure to utilise natural resources adequately; the social problems to which President Andropov so revealingly referred; the agricultural and ethnic problems; and the nightmare of maintaining political control on the Soviet bloc. I draw some comfort, but not much, from that. However, history shows how national leaders often try to distract attention from domestic tensions by pursuing expansionism abroad. I fear that that temptation will grow and be enhanced by the eventual emergence of a new generation of Soviet leades who will not have known the horrors of war at first hand, as all previous Soviet leaders have done.
In those circumstances, the question is how the West should respond. Until recently, a narrow view of self-interest coupled a necessary strengthening of our defences with a war of rhetoric and abuse, which had the effect of discouraging dialogue and frustrating understanding. It seemed to follow the principle that as long as we looked after ourselves nothing else mattered much. That attitude was the hallmark of the West's approach until the end of last year.
The consequences of such a narrow perception of self-interest were damaging. Apart from the fact that an absence of dialogue and understanding is dangerous in itself, and becomes more dangerous and more difficult to correct as time goes on, the effect of the policy within the West was also extremely harmful. It encouraged neutralism, unilateralism and anti-American sentiment in Europe, and created self-doubt in the West. In that respect it did more to fulfil Soviet objectives than Western ones.
A broader perception of self-interest starts with the realisation that defence is not an end in itself. The aim of defence is security. Defence is a vital part of security, but not the only part. Equally important is the need to reduce the tensions that threaten security in the first place. There is a need for permanent and patient dialogue with the Soviet Union to reduce the tension, improve understanding, avoid the risk of mistakes and, eventually, we all hope, to make progress on disarmament. I am delighted that there is now a recognition in both the British and American Governments of a broader perspective of self-interest that combines strength with sensitivity.
I welcomed President Reagan's January speech that heralded this change. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on her visit to Hungary and on her initiative in going to Moscow, and I welcome the news that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary

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will soon visit Moscow. There is much to be discussed in commercial as well as political areas. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister wisely said on her return from Moscow, and as the Foreign Secretary said this afternoon, there will be no sudden breakthrough and there should be no false expectations, but the chance now exists for the long freeze to begin to thaw and perhaps ultimately to melt away. However, in the meantime the West must ensure that it maintains an adequate collective deterrent and that it remains united within itself. We must balance defence with disarmament. If we can achieve that balance we shall best serve our interests and those of the world.
Turning to the regional conflicts, I shall comment today not on the two major areas of concern—the middle east and central America—but on the more specifically British problem of the Falkland Islands, which was mentioned by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary. Despite the welcome overtures by the British Government and the new Government in Argentina, there is a block to real progress. Its source is the entirely understandable reluctance of the Government to allow constitutional matters to be placed on the agenda of negotiations. Once again, the distinction must be drawn between a narrow view of self-interest and a broader perspective.
I do not suggest that we should concede under negotiation what we rightly refused to concede under duress, but we must face some realities: the reality that it is in the interests of the Falkland Islanders that they should enjoy a secure and stable co-existence with their Argentine neighbours; the reality that it is in British interests to return to a normal and friendly relationship with Argentina, as well as to help its fragile democracy; and the reality that the cost of defending the Falklands is both expensive in its own right and affects some of our other defence priorities. The sooner that expense can be eased with integrity, the better, and I have no doubt that the new airfield, when completed, will go a long way towards achieving that.
However, sooner or later there must be serious negotiations, and, in my view, the most hopeful approach will be an international one. On a bilateral basis, the Falklands problem is almost insoluble. It is by no means the only such problem. But the islands are becoming of increasing strategic significance and there is a much wider interest in them for that reason. An approach with the help of the United States in particular, and with other friendly powers, may be the best way forward. I also believe that now may be as favourable a moment as any. The internal problems facing the new Argentine Government are severe to say the least, and it is perfectly possible that, just as with the Soviet Union, those domestic problems could force a hardening of attitudes towards foreign policy. The chance of making progress towards a mutually acceptable settlement may be better now than at any other time.
In passing, may I fully endorse the broader approach that Britain takes on Belize. Our narrow interest would be to withdraw, but the consequences of that could be destabilising in a region that is causing so much trouble already. Clearly, we are right to stay there.
As in Britain, there are signs elsewhere of a recovery in the world recession. They are real signs, but they are also precarious, because many risks and hidden obstacles still exist. Some risks are obvious, such as the high level of international debt. The banks and other national and international institutions are doing their best, but the strain is showing. The collapse of even a relatively small
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economy could be damaging. Another obstacle is the size of the American budget deficit. President Reagan's recent measures to contain that deficit are most welcome, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on Monday, but they by no means solve the problem.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Leeds, East referred to the war between Iran and Iraq, which poses a potential threat to the world's energy resources and specifically to oil prices. The House will be well aware of the consequences of that. Yet again, Britain's response to this problem cannot afford to be governed by a narrow view of self-interest. The narrow view is reflected by calls for protectionism, and is again expressed in the attitude that no one else matters as long as we are all right. That view lacks a perspective on reality and it is one which the Government strongly and rightly resist.
The reality of today's world is that all nations are interdependent. We rely on each other for our national wealth and prosperity. Recovery will be achieved in Britain only if it is achieved in every other industrialised nation. No one can afford to go it alone. The broader view of self-interest is not based on any philanthropy towards our competitors. It still argues the need for us to emerge from the recession more quickly and more strongly than other world economies, but it is based on the recognition that each nation should do all that it can to help the world at large to recover and to resist the dangers that threaten everyone. It is based on the belief that the total volume of world trade is as important as Britain's or anyone's share of it.
There are few forums where the leaders of all the major industrialised nations can meet to discuss those problems, and the world economic summit is one of them. I am pleased that this year's summit in June will be held in London and that the Prime Minister will be chairing it. I hope that she will use the opportunity—I am sure she will—to convince other leaders of the need for concerted action to help the recovery to build up, not just in theory, but in practice. It is vital that this summit should be of practical help to the world, and in no sense simply a ritual.
Finally, I wish to refer to the difficulties that face the European Community, of which the House is only too well aware. The question is how we should approach a solution. I am much encouraged by what the Prime Minister said at Question Time this afternoon and by what my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said in his speech. In this case the narrow view of Britain's selfinterest—which is a vital one—is to insist that the reforms that we believe are necessary must be implemented, and that the rebate to which we feel we are entitled must be paid to the last penny—or almost. That is the impression received by the British people.
Like all narrow views, this carries the danger of ending up by hurting the very people whom it is supposed to protect—ourselves. It could do so in several ways. There is the risk that if we get all our own way on the budget we are less likely to do so on other important issues, which might matter a good deal more in the long run. We must avoid inviting a negative response to British initiatives in other areas. There is also a risk of damaging public opinion. It is supposed that the Government have overwhelming popular support for their approach. They may have in the short term, but what about beyond that? It seems to me that the country is almost being encouraged

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to view the Community as a limited budgetary exercise and, worse still, to some extent as a safety valve for a feeling of nationalism. We must not forget that it was the eruption of such nationalism in other European countries that created the need for the Community in the first place.
If the Government believe in the values and ideals of the Community, as I know they do, they should be alarmed and not encouraged by British public reaction and should be doing all that they can to change it. Once again, a broader perception of self-interest is necessary. That does not mean that we should be a soft touch in Europe, giving way to others at the slightest pressure. Nothing would more confuse our partners.
I have played my part in previous budget negotiations, and I completely accept the legitimacy of the British case, which must be pursued. The difference is one not of principle, but of degree. A satisfactory outcome cannot be measured in pounds and pence alone, but in the balance between the size of the rebate and the political repercussions of further argument in Britain and the rest of Europe.
Understandably, and rightly, the Government are reluctant to compromise on the principle at stake. But more than one principle is at stake: the principle of partnership on which the Community is based, and without which it cannot function is equally under threat. I do not ask the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister to choose between the two principles, but I ask them to understand the need for a reasonable balance between them. Naturally, I am glad that the Cabinet decided to take no action that would damage the prospects of reaching an agreement and that a special Foreign Ministers meeting will take place next Tuesday. I know that the Foreign Secretary will do all in his power to reach that elusive settlement longed for by many millions.
We cannot afford to take a narrow view of our interests in any aspect of world affairs. The nations of the European Community and of the world are interdependent. We all have to live with each other. There is no fixed quantity of success, prosperity or peace for which we need to fight by doing others down. Our rewards will be commensurate with those gained by the world at large.
British foreign policy has always been based on self-interest; so it should continue to be. At its wisest, however, the perspective has been sufficiently broad and the self-interest sufficiently enlightened for us to turn away fun the pursuit of narrow and self-defeating nationalism and to aim instead for wider goals.
5.32 pm
Mr. David Steels: I am pleased to have the opportunity to follow the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym), especially in his latter remarks. The three opening speeches by the Foreign Secretary, the shadow Foreign Secretary and the former Foreign Secretary were immediately striking for their large degree of agreement. I should like to continue in the same constructive terms, but, in the interests of brevity, I shall touch on only three areas—the future of the Community, East-West relations and our relations with the Argentine.
I am more free than most in being able to say from the outset, in less coded language, that the overwhelming impression of British foreign policy is that it is dominated
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by the activities and views—some might say prejudices—of the Prime Minister, and that the roles of the Foreign Office and the Foreign Secretary are largely of damage limitation. That view has been taken outside the House and is evident in reports published in this morning's newspapers.
Many hon. Members will have read the long and detailed piece by Mr. Peter Jenkins in The Guardian today. Without reading all that he says about the financial details and the relatively small gap that once existed in these negotiations, he concludes:
"Her reputation for obstinacy and rapacity has built up into a store of ill will which must have contributed to her undoing just as victory seemed within her grasp. Now she finds herself, in effect, at war with the Community."
Mr. Jenkins dealt in his article with all the summits since Dublin.
An even more graphic report, which some hon. Members may not have read, was published in The Scotsman. Its European correspondent said:
"The presence of Mrs. Thatcher at European summit conferences is now viewed with the same distaste and disquiet by her EEC partners as the regular invasion of English football supporters across the Channel. She is increasingly being accused of bringing the EEC club into disrepute … and of presenting the latest episode to the waiting British public as a second Falklands victory, when in reality it amounted to the sabotage of the EEC".
That is strong language, but I believe that it faithfully reports the reaction of our Community partners.
The report in The Scotsman goes on to say that
"Participants at the summit were less direct"
the European correspondent was quoting other European press reports—
"as they packed their bags more in sorrow than anger and returned home, but all agreed that the latest dispute went beyond the mere question of money (the terms in which Mrs. Thatcher presents the argument) and enters the more philosophical and fundamental realm of what form of European co-operation the Community are really about."
I criticise the Prime Minister, not for standing up for British interests—I agree with the former Foreign Secretary that we should expect her to do so—but for the style of her approach. Her lack of a wider view of the Community is leading to constant disruption. It is arguably a mistake that, having started on the Arian space project, the Government have decided to put the latest British satellites into the United States space shuttle rather than participate in the European project. That decision was not necessarily a major mistake, but it contributed to the Community's view that Britain has somehow lost interest in the wider areas of co-operation in which we should be engaged.
There was further criticism from both sides of the House the dragging of feet over the European Airbus project. I mentioned in the House yesterday the lack of any reaction to the Community's proposals, especially the French proposals, for further co-operation in banking and insurance, from which we would stand to benefit.
On the wider issues of defence and security, I say bluntly that I find it most irritating that the Prime Minister treats Members of Parliament as though they were cretins. Yesterday I asked her why we were not making more use of the Community to discuss defence and security matters. She replied pat that that was not within the Community's terms of reference. We all know that, but discussions are under way between the French and the Germans from which we seem to be completely excluded because of our lack of interest. Surely there is an opportunity, as the new

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Secretary-General of NATO comes from our domestic political scene, for us to be more involved in discussing the role of NATO's European pillar.
We should reconsider the Genscher-Colombo plan for greater European co-operation in security and defence matters. The whole Community should concentrate on political initiatives in foreign affairs. Lest anyone say that would disrupt the Atlantic Alliance, one has only to read the long article written by Dr. Kissinger for Time magazine, to which the Foreign Secretary referred, in which he, too, argues for greater European responsibility in shared defence.
We have also been dragging our feet on issues such as the European monetary system. The general impression created in the Community is that the only matter of interest to the Prime Minister in terms of Community affairs is "getting her own money back". Even that interest would be better served, as the former Foreign Secretary said in more guarded language, if we showed ourselves more willing to embrace the Community's political objectives.
There is a parallel between the Prime Minister's attitude to her Community partners and to local government. She believes that it is all about money and spending, not about the possible damage to European or local democratic institutions. That blinkered, shopkeeping approach to domestic and international politics is reprehensible.
I am glad, too, that the Cabinet has dragged the Prime Minister back from threats of taking illegal action against the Community. That would, indeed, put her attitude to Community institutions on a par with the attitude of Liverpool's militant Labour council dealing with the British Government.
As we come to the European parliamentary elections in three months' time, I am anxious that we should get away from a sort of Dutch auction between the Government and the Opposition on who can best appeal to the lowest instincts of the electorate by being beastliest to foreigners. We must all try to avoid that danger and regard the elections as an opportunity to discuss our different views about how the Community ought to develop.
On East-West relations, when the Prime Minister took office her image as the iron lady, which she was careful to polish, was probably immensely popular, but it was largely negative. What has been described as megaphone diplomacy—the lack of bilateral meetings at the highest level between the United States and the Soviet Union, including those involving ourselves, and the lack of any face-to-face contact with the Soviet leadership—was almost bound to result in what the Foreign Secretary accurately described as a measure of mutual mistrust and suspicion, but we did a good deal to foster that and very little to counter it.
I do not share the devotion of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) to the rise of the gerontocracy, although in 20 years' time I may take a different view, but I believe that one must accept whatever leadership exists in the Soviet Union. Now that there is a new leadership, the lack of contact should be repaired. I am therefore very pleased that the Foreign Secretary will be going there and that Mr. Kornienko will be coming here in the next week or two. I am also very pleased that the Prime Minister went to Hungary, but the tone of her speech in Budapest was miles from that of the speeches that she made only a few weeks earlier in Canada and Washington and it takes more than one speech or one visit to an east European country to undo years of damage.
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Again, I believe that there was never any real hope of success in the START or the INF talks so long as we expected talented, highly skilled people to go into negotiations and conference chambers against the background of lack of political dialogue with aggressive rhetoric, mistrust and suspicion on both sides. I was therefore not surprised that the talks were discontinued.
I had the perhaps unique opportunity to visit the Soviet Union after the breakdown of the talks, and it was clear to me that various levels of misunderstanding needed to be removed. For instance, in the Kremlin I was solemnly told that the West had deployed cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe against the wishes of the people. Why do the Russians say that? It is partly because the activities of the Greenham peace women and their equivalents in other European countries are constantly shown on television, and in a closed society the propaganda that is shown comes to be believed. I made it clear that, whatever people's views on the deployment of cruise and Pershing, the issues were openly discussed and debated in general elections both here and in West Germany and that no one in his right mind who studied those debates could say that deployment took place against the wishes of the peoples concerned. That kind of misunderstanding must be removed from the Soviet mind.
That is not to say that we are enthusiastic about having cruise and Pershing. We may continue openly to say that we do not wish to have them here and that we wish that the Soviet Union had not proceeded with the manufacture and deployment of the SS20s. We may wish that he decision in 1979 had not led to the deployment of cruise and Pershing, but, as the Foreign Secretary said, we must maintain a firm line, while at the same time opening the door for negotiation and discussion. The more dialogue and contact that there is at every level—in commerce, in the arts and, above all, at the political level—the better the chance of opening up new opportunities for arms control talks.
What should we do now? I agree with everything that has been said about the unlikelihood of rapid progress being made on disarmament in the coming year because of the new Soviet leadership and the presidential elections in the United States, but surely that provides an opening for Europe in general and Britain in particular. There is no military case for further deployment of cruise and Pershing, and I understand that none is due in the current year, so now is the time to explore the possibility of a freeze on further deployment of missiles by both East and West.
In referring to a freeze, I do not mean choosing a mythical date in the past. The Soviet Union is perfectly willing to accept a freeze if we go back to October 1983 before we had cruise and Pershing. My response to that is that I should be happy to have a freeze starting from 1979, which would involve removal of all the SS20s. Such hypothetical discussions are pointless, both internally and internationally. If we take the concept of a freeze seriously, it is no use talking about artificial dates. We must freeze the position as it is now and then argue about the possibilities for agreement between East and West and the de-escalation of the nuclear threat.
There is another important feature of political discussion in the Soviet Union. Until one has been around different parts of that country and engaged in regular discussions with politicians and academics there, it is difficult to understand the Soviet psychology and the

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feeling of threat—in my view mistaken, but no less real for that. I do not entirely agree with the former Foreign Secretary, who suggested that the new generation of leadership coming up in the Kremlin might take a different view as they have no direct experience of war. I was impressed by the extent to which even the younger generation of Russians had had dinned into them the record of what happened in the last war. One must be sensitive to that and appreciate that they suffered a degree of direct physical assault in the last war that this country did not suffer. That is not to excuse Soviet expansionism or anything else, but it is important to understand the feeling of threat and thus their overreaction to the deployment of cruise and Pershing in western Europe.
I believe that in some areas we have a common interest with the Soviet people. One obvious example has already been mentioned—the reduction of military expenditure. It cannot possibly be in the interests of the Russian people to have an ever-escalating military budget. When one considers the living standards and relative poverty of a country that is rich in natural resources and has great skills, it is clearly in the interests of the man in the Russian street that the Soviet Government should reduce their military expenditure and turn to more fruitful enterprises on behalf of their people. There is thus a common interest, but we have a long way to go to persuade the Soviet Government of that.
As that is my general view, I repeat that the British Government are fundamentally mistaken in pressing ahead with the Trident programme. Not only is that a major escalation in expenditure for us—with inevitable effects of the rest of the defence budget, as was argued recently in another place—but the D5 Trident system will represent a major escalation of nuclear weaponry on the Western side.
It may not be until next year, but if arms control talks are to be resumed there is a strong case for merging the START and the INF talks and for the British and French forces at least to be counted in. Counted in does not necessarily mean negotiated away, but it is foolish to pretend that we can stand aside and leave the whole process to the Soviet Union and the United States. A major change of British policy is called for in that respect.
Despite the lack of immediate likelihood of success on arms control, there are other areas in which, during a period of freeze, agreement might be sought with the Warsaw pact countries. For example, we might agree on a battlefield nuclear-free zone as the Palme commission recommended, or on the non-military use of outer space, an area in which I believe progress could be made. Another area is the much-neglected and much-understated mutual and balanced force reduction talks in Vienna, which I was glad to see started again the other day. That is a crucial forum of discussion which has been completely overlooked in all the discussions on nuclear weaponry. Unless we can get some agreement on the reduction, particularly on the Soviet side, of conventional weaponry this reliance on the nuclear deterrent will, I believe, continue. It is a great pity that in the debates on arms control issues, not only in the House but in the press and on television, the importance of getting mutual and balanced reductions in conventional weaponry are often overlooked.
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I hope that when the Foreign Secretary goes to Moscow he will engage in the widest possible political discussions, that he will not regard this as just a one-off visit, and that it will be a real attempt by Britain, preferably in concert with our European partners, to open up the dialogue and bring "detente" back into the international vocabulary.
If one accepts that the situation in the middle east, as appears to be accepted on all sides, is the area of greatest flashpoint potential, it is clearly necessary that the Soviety Union, too, uses its influence to secure a peaceful settlement in that area. In particular, it is important that we in this country try to use what influence we have in international affairs to persuade the super-powers to stop belittling the role of the United Nations and its potential.
We have seen in the Lebanon the limitations of multinational forces cobbled together as voluntary police forces. There is no substitute for an international peacekeeping body which has political authority and real bite. I remember my visit about three years ago to the United Nations' force in southern Lebanon. I was struck by the disparity between the obvious incompetence of the force working there and the weakness of its political mandate. It is necessary to look again at the possibility of a United Nations peace-keeping role with real authority, backed by the super-powers and by us. This is an area of discussion which we ought to open up. If we look at some of the things that have been said so far in this debate about the wrecking potential of the Iran-Iraq conflict, or, indeed, the long-term role of the Falkland Islands, it is clear that there are trouble spots in the world where a United Nations role could be beneficial if only it were a stronger organisation.
Among the matters which could be on its agenda is the matter mentioned by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East that of conventional arms sales around the world. What has happened, for example, to the proposal by Mr. Genscher some years ago for a United Nations register of such sales? Far from having control of such sales, we do not even have knowledge of where they are taking place. I agree with what has been said and I believe that this is a function which the United Nations could undertake.
I turn, finally, to the question of the Falklands and our relations with the Argentine. I believe that the Government have missed an opportunity here, because we have never made it firmly clear to the new Government in the Argentine and, more important perhaps, to the Argentine people, that our quarrel was not with the people of the Argentine; that is was with the military regime and the action it took in seizing our territory by force. I believe that we have made an insufficient response to the arrival of the democratically elected Government of Mr. Alfonsin.
I remember meeting Mr. Alfonsin in Ottawa about four years ago when he was, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, East described, one of those liberal democrats who had found life rather tough in Latin America, squeezed between military dictatorship and the rise of Marxism. We must remember that he was struggling even then against the military regime and that he actually opposed the Falklands war. So, when he was elected and installed as President, there was an opportunity to do more than just send a telegram of congratulations.
We have reached the stage where we are saying that we want the Argentine to withdraw the state of war that exists between us, and they are saying that they want the British to remove the exclusion zone around the Falklands. So it is a matter of "After you, Claude" as month after month goes by. We should make it clear to the Argentine that we

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are desperately anxious to restore normal good relations. Of course, such was the loss of life and the sacrifice involved that there can be no question of putting talks on sovereignty back on to the immediate agenda, but for the Prime Minister to go on saying that any discussions with the Argentine will be on commercial matters only is incredibly short-sighted.
I have never forgotten that episode during the general election—and I am sorry if I embarrass the former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East—at a Conservative press conference. A question was asked about talks with the Argentine and he very sensibly said that he looked forward to the day when democracy would be restored and talks would begin with the Argentine. The Prime Minister quickly added, "on commercial matters," and then made it worse by saying, "You all heard the Foreign Secretary say 'on commercial matters'," when every television camera showed that his lips had never moved. But "on commercial matters" has become the key phrase attributed to him, quite improperly, and it has stuck.
We must be a little more open and willing to say to the new Government in the Argentine that we recognise the reality of the geographical location of the Falkland Islands, that it is in the long-term interest of the Falkland Islanders that they live in harmony with their mainland neighbour, and that therefore, once diplomatic relations have been restored and things have got back to normal, we want to look again at some of the proposals that we were making before, methods of international trusteeship, or whatever, which will secure the future of the islanders and, incidentally, reduce the immense burden of expenditure.
I had a look the other day at the forecast figures of the Ministry of Defence and the other Departments involved. I concluded that projected public expenditure—by a Government who are supposed not to be very keen on public expenditure—over the next three years amounts to more than £1 million per islander. That is really not a defensible situation. From the point of view of narrow British commercial interests, we must remember that there are more British people engaged in commerce and trade in the Argentine than in the Falklands, and we have a direct interest in trying to restore good relations with the Argentine.
I conclude as I began, by saying that I think the Foreign Secretary deserves our best wishes in his efforts to mitigate the worst effects of a rather narrow-minded, nationalist, populist approach to British foreign policy. I hope very much that he will have some success in continuing the role that he outlined this afternoon.
5.57 pm
Mr. Dennis Walters: When I spoke in the last foreign affairs debate some months ago, I emphasised the need to start a dialogue with the Soviet Union. I therefore fully share the pleasure expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) and congratulate the Prime Minister on her visit to Hungary and what she said there. I am also delighted that the Foreign Secretary is proposing to visit Moscow. This was also referred to in a rather less whole-hearted way by the leader of the Liberal party, the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Steel). I believe that these are very positive and important developments.
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I agree with a great deal that was said by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and by the right hon Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) in connection with the middle east. However, I believe that when the right hon. Gentleman separated the issue of the Gulf from the central theme of Arab-Israeli relations he was making an error of assessment. When I was in Cairo last week I had a long meeting with President Mubarak, who referred specifically to the indivisibility of the issue and said that if the Palestine question is solved much else will fall into place. I wholly agree with him.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary rightly referred to the statement made by King Hussein. The bitter and almost anguished remarks made by King Hussein about United States foreign policy in the rniddle east should be taken very seriously in this country and in Europe, because it would be difficult anywhere to find a better or more intelligent friend of Britain and of the West. We should realise from what he said just how dangerously misguided has been the conduct of American foreign policy in the area. It is good to know that the Queen's forthcoming visit to Jordan will provide an early opportunity for Britain to show its friendship for and understanding of Jordan.
The United States policy in the middle east, with the exception of a brief period under President Eisenhower in 1956, has never been even-handed as between Israel and the Arabs. The powerful Zionist lobby in the United States has seen to that. As a result, scant attention has been paid to equity and justice, which are at the core of the Palestine question.
Mr. Stuart Bell rose——
Mr. Walters: I have undertaken to be brief and, therefore, I cannot give way. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will make his views known in due course.
The innumerable United Nations resolutions on Palestine have been consistently ignored, as have the grave dangers posed to European and American strategic and economic interests in the area by Washington's unquestioning partisanship in favour of Israel.
That attitude, which has long angered and antagonised the more radical Arab states, is now seriously threatening to alienate the whole of the Arab world, including those Arab countries that are most moderate and western-orientated in their political leanings. They feel that under President Reagan and Secretaries Haig and Shultz the conventional pro-Israeli slant in American policy has become even greater. That has shocked and demoralised them. They find it incomprehensible that, in spite of Israel's invasion and devastation of the Lebanon, the continuing illegal colonisation of the West Bank and Israel's rejection of all initiatives aimed at achieving a comprehensive peace settlement, the United States has not only failed to modify its attitude but apparently has become even more committed to a policy wholly supportive of Israel.
It is precisely that sense of exasperation at a seemingly irreversible trend that has finally driven a man as wise and experienced as King Hussein to his despairing cry of protest. The failure by the United States to persuade Israel to allow a group of Palestinians to leave the occupied territories to attend the Palestine National Council conference, and the hesitation over supplying a relatively small quantity of arms to Jordan—while continuing to

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pour the latest equipment into Israel—obviously proved to be the last straw for the king. Only today it has been confirmed that President Reagan has withdrawn the proposal to sell anti-aircraft missiles to Jordan, in response to the pressure from the American Zionist groups—[Interruption.]—that are apparently strongly supported by the hon. and learned member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner).
When in Cairo a few days ago, I had long talks with President Mubarak and other leading Egyptian politicians. It became obvious there just how frustrated Egypt, too, is by American policy. President Mubarak's conduct of affairs, which has shown much patience and wisdom, has won for him wide international respect. He expressed his deep anxiety at the trend of American policy and its adverse effects on the area. Although he intends to persevere in his efforts to persuade the United States to modify its policy, he is well aware that the present time is not propitious. The proliferation of American elections makes it unusual to have a propitious time for middle east initiatives. Certainly the American presidential election year—with aspiring presidential candidates vying with each other on how best to prove their Zionist allegiance—is not the best moment for an even-handed initiative by the United States in the middle east.
Mr. Shultz—who, incidentally, is one of the great disappointments to Arab countries—has just said that there will be no further initiatives. That places an even greater burden of responsibility on European statemanship to protect the interests of the West.
The first positive step should be an immediate Anglo-French offer to Jordan to provide it with equivalent equipment to that which was so churlishly and unwisely refused by the United States Administration.
The second step should be to take strong persuasive action to make the Israeli Government halt their illegal settlement programme on the West Bank, to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary referred in his speech. That persuasive action should, if necessary, include economic measures. I assume that while such a brutish policy is being pursued, on the West Bank there will be no question of considering a visit by the Queen to Israel.
The third step should be for Europe to work actively to convene an international conference aimed at a comprehensive peace settlement. It would be unreal to try to exclude the Soviet Union from such a conference. If there is to be any hope of making progress, participants must include the United States and the Soviet Union as well as Israel, Syria, Jordan and the Palestinians, Britain and France. I very much hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will look upon the structuring of such a conference as one of the top priorities of British diplomacy. I look forward to hearing something about that from the Minister when he replies to the debate.
The position in the middle east is fraught with peril. The Iran-Iraq war continues on its bloody and horrific way. As has been said, it is a constant threat to our friends in Kuwait, in the United Arab Emirates and in Saudi Arabia. It could escalate in an almost uncontrollable manner. This is no time for passivity. Courageous, intelligent and far-sighted diplomacy is essential to try to save the day.
6.9 pm
Mr. Andrew Faulds: I find myself, as is not unusual on these occasions, agreeing with every word that the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Walters) has said. He has a much greater grip and understanding of the realities of what is happening in the Middle East, and the enormous and immense dangers emanating from that area, than some of those who whisper implications against what he has been saying.
Mr. Bell: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Faulds: No, I have no intention of giving way to anybody, even on my own side, because we have a limitation of time and I have promised to be very brief. If my hon. Friend wishes to discuss these matters with me, perhaps he can seek me out in the Tea Room.
A lot of ground has been covered for me by the hon. Member for Westbury. I do not need to pursue the arguments he has made because, as I say, I agree with them. But I want for a moment or two to look at the enormous complexities of what is happening, and may happen, in the Middle East.
We only have to look at the disastrous, tragic, history of Lebanon in the last few years and the lesson that the Americans have not yet learnt: that foreign intervention in situations like that only exacerbates the disaster. It is ridiculous for the Americans to claim that they are entitled, as part of a multinational force, to take a factional part in the fighting; to lob shells into certain communities in the Lebanon, while Syria, which actually is a neighbour and which shares a great community of population and of interest with the Lebanon, is thought of as a foreign intervener.
Syria was, in the first place, asked to come in in 1976, to stop the decimation of the Right-wing and the Christian forces. Syria answered that call. Recently we had the remarkable example of the Syrian Foreign Secretary putting to the Lebanese factions a series of negotiations and negotiating points, which, if the murderous geriatrics in Lausanne had the sense to listen to, and if that misguided and rather ignorant young President had had the courage to pursue, might have led to a settlement of the Lebanese problem. Now Lebanon faces the likelihood of increased and murderous warfare, internally among the factions, dragging on for many months.
But what worries me is that the Americans have not yet learnt their lesson. It is quite likely, when the fighting is renewed in the Lebanon—as it will be—that the United States will think that they have got to show their muscle in election year. If that fleet sails back and takes part in the internal fighting with Lebanon, it will only make the situation much worse. The United States has got to understand that any intervention of its, whether it is in Lebanon or whether it comes in the Gulf—and I am terrified that it may come there—only radicalises political views in the area. It radicalises them politically among the Intelligentsia who have been abroad, who have had a good education in the West, and who are normally sympathetic to Western ideas, but they are being forced to adopt more and more radical positions by the attitude of America; and, of course, it radicalises the area religiously.
Every time America lobs a shell into that part of the world; every time America claims a right to intervene, it

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creates converts for Khomeini-ism and they yet have not begun to understand that—which is perhaps the most dangerous development in the Middle East.
I want in this debate to concentrate on the war between Iran and Iraq and the dangers that that poses for the whole world and the tragedy that it creates for the peoples of those two countries.
I returned a couple of days ago from a visit to Iraq. It was only my second visit. I was accompanied by a number of my parliamentary colleagues—two from each side of the House, if the third parties will forgive me for excluding them. I was accompanied by gentlemen who are not normally thought of as committed to the Arab cause. I do not wish to mention their names because they may want to speak for themselves when they return. Two of them are still there.
My colleagues and I were enormously impressed by a number of factors. First, when we met the Speaker of the Assembly, who I suppose is the sort of equivalent of our Prime Minister—and the Foreign Secretary—a highly intelligent and a very articulate gentleman—we were enormously impressed by a number of arguments that those gentlemen put to us, and I want to draw two conclusions from those conversations we had.
We were given detailed information about the developments in Iraq before the war, and it is quite clear that Iraq had become one of the countries that had been most successful in the development of its infrastructure and the use of its human and real resources—raw resources—and it is a tragedy that the war has aborted that development. It was clear, too, from those talks, that whatever we may think of the regime—I think most of us who have Arab friends in most of the Arab countries would have reservations on many aspects of the regime—Iraq is now a moderate Arab state.
Mr. Janner indicated dissent.
Mr. Faulds: We have this silly giggling because the poor fellow does not understand the situation and does not want to learn. It is quite clear that Iraq is now numbered amongst the moderate nations of the Arab world. She has extremely good relations with the Gulf—hardly enemies of the West. She has extremely good relations with Egypt, with Saudi Arabia and with Jordan, all of which are in the pro-Western camp in the Arab world.
And what is our attitude? We discussed this with the Iraqi Foreign Secretary. He made it quite clear—and he went out of his way to make the point—that they much appreciated the support and the understanding of France. Now you and I, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and most of our colleagues here, know that France has a very commercial consideration of where her interests lie. The Iraqis accept that but say that, in addition to that, France has a real appreciation of the problems that face Iraq in terms of the dangers of Khomeini-ism spreading throughout the Middle East. He underlined the support and the understanding of the French Government. But he also argued that Britain is taking an extremely ambivalent view of what is happening between Iran and Iraq.
We tried to argue that our friends in Iraq were wrong in making this interpretation, but this is what the three we met—the Speaker of the Assembly, the Trade Minister and the Foreign Secretary—said: "Britain is sitting on the fence".
They argued that there were two reasons for that: first, that the British—the Foreign Office—thought that, if we
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were reasonable with Khomeini, there might be a chance of influencing what happened within Iran in terms of the development of a moderate regime. If that is what the Iraqis think, I cannot believe that that is what the Foreign Office thinks. There is no prospect of the removal of the Khomeini regime even if the old man dies, which would be some relief for the rest of his compatriots. Another Mullah will take over with as fanatical and barbaric ideas as his. So the Iranian regime is not going to change. We gain nothing, if there is any truth in that argument, by trying to maintain reasonably good relations with them in the hope that we can play a part in helping to secure, or supporting the evolution of, a moderate regime.
The second argument of his was that we have an interest—and I am sorry to have to report this again to the Foreign Office—in good relations with Iran because we were supplying material that could be used for their war effort. I know that the Foreign Office official reply is: "We are not supplying lethal weapons". That is a joke in the Iraqi Foreign Ministry, such a joke that when the word came up in Arabic—the Iraqi Foreign Secretary could not remember the word "lethal"—there were giggles from his civil servants while they supplied the proper Arabic interpretation, which was a sort of joke use of the term "lethal weapons".
I believe that the Foreign Office is not supplying lethal weapons. I am worried that rumours have been spread from America—for possibly obvious commercial reasons—that we are doing so. But I do urge the Minister of State and his colleague, the Foreign Secretary, to understand that we have got to look pretty carefully at what is actually going into Iran from British supplies or through other means—and I will return to that in a moment.
The gentlemen we met talked, too, of some effects of the war on Iraq. We all know the situation. They cannot get their oil out, either through the Gulf or through the Syrian pipeline, because of those ridiculous Arab brotherhood disagreements. They get a very limited amount through the Turkish pipeline. They are hoping to have the opening of a Saudi Arabian line, and one hopes for their sake that that comes about pretty soon. They—very sadly, because they are not pro-Russian in the sense that most of our un-understanding colleages would accept that phrase—are very worried that they have been forced closer to the Soviet Union for arms supplies, which we in Britain refuse to supply and which some of the other Western countries are more than reticent to supply. They have been forced to go to the USSR for the arms they need to fight the war they are now involved in.
Iraq fears a war of attrition. Iraq has a population of something like 14 million; Iran's is, I think, nearly three times that. I am open to correction from those who know Iran better than I do, but I think it is roughly three times that. Iraq fears a war of attrition. She is being economically drained by the costs of the war and, of course, the difficulty of getting out her rich resources of oil. She has responded favourably. There is a good deal of disagreement as to who actually started this disastrous and unhappy confrontation, but undoubtedly since the war started Iraq has responded favourably to all the initiatives for a peace settlement; those from the United Nations Secretary-General; those mounted by Algeria, and those mounted by King Hassan of Morocco.
The main burden of the exchanges with the Iraqi Foreign Secretary was this: he pled that we in Britain try

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to understand what they were fighting against in terms of Khomeini-ism. They urged us to appreciate the implications of any advance of Khomeini-ism. One or two of our colleagues in the House this afternoon have touched on that. He was surprised that those with interests in the Middle East simply did not begin to understand what Khomeini-ism meant and he argued—and we all know this is happening—that Khomeini-ism is already at work. There is a half-world-wide campaign of Khomeini-ism in the Gulf, in Kuwait, in North Africa with an ally, and in Saudi Arabia, and, even as far afield as Nigeria. The Foreign Secretary argued, in desperation, with us. Why could not we begin to appreciate that Khomeini's regime was intent on the spreading of those barbaric, perverse, ideas throughout, first, the whole of that Arab area, which they would not find too difficult once they, Iraq, were defeated because nobody else could put up a military resistance in the whole of that area to the spread of Khomeini-ism? He put to us the point, quite bluntly: the aim of Khomeini was eventually to dominate Mecca and Medina, and then he would have achieved his dream. And then God help the rest of the world!
The implications of that domination, either physical or spiritual, are absolutely horrifying. It means that not only would the Arabs throughout the area have to suffer a perversion of Islam. They would have to suffer a reversion to the barbaric practices that the Foreign Secretary spelled out in detail: the barbaric practices of the Mullahs in Iran.
But not only would the Arabs suffer. The effect of Khomeini-ism, because of its possession of Mecca and Medina, would spread throughout millions and millions of Moslems throughout the world with unforseeable political consequences. There would be explosions in country after country. There would be intense and enormous damage, not only to western interests, which we should be concerned with, but to Western ideas, and half the globe would slip back centuries into a barbarism that the advanced and intelligent Arabs are horrified by. This is why the Iraqi Foreign Secretary, for an hour and a half, the Speaker of the Assembly, for an hour and a half, and the Trade Minister—although we managed to get him to discuss rather more detailed matters—went on, and on, and on with this warning.
I think that the lessons for Britain from all this are quite clear. We really cannot afford to maintain any longer this Foreign Office position of impartiality. The Iraqis are, in a sense, fighting a war that some of us are only now beginning to understand is of much larger dimensions and implications than the geographic area it is presently being fought in. I think we must make a gesture of understanding of the Iraqi position—as France has done and as, I believe, more Western countries will begin to do. I do not want Britain to be the last in that race and I think, if I may have the impertinence to suggest it to the Minister, he should consider a visit to Baghdad, or the Foreign Secretary himself should consider a visit to Baghdad. I think it is essential because it is many months now since anybody from the Foreign and Commonwealth was out in Iraq itself.
Although I know that there are commercial implications in this, we should carefully consider whether it is right to allow the transfer of this ship which I think is berthed in Newcastle. I understand the Iranians bought it many, many moons ago now and that we are prepared to fulfil its
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transfer, having stripped it of any useful equipment, in completion of the deal in which it was purchased. Iran owes a great deal of money to many countries in the world. I do think that the Department of Trade should consider very carefully whether the sale of this half-empty hulk of a ship that has gone somewhat rusty, I am told, in the last three years, is really worth it in terms of the damage it will do, by simply confirming the Iraqi view that we are prepared to supply Iran with arms and other warlike equipment. The transfer of that ship will simply confirm Iraq's suspicions of Britain's position vis-a-vis Iran and Iraq in this war.
We have, very wisely, recently negotiated—and I gather it was a very successful meeting—a £250 million medium transfer loan which the Prime Minister and, I think, Mr. Ramadan signed in October. I do urge the Foreign Office to see that they give all the assistance they can to see that there is no banking difficulty that arises about this loan, that the banks are as co-operative as they can be in these difficult circumstances in Iraq and that we make use of this £250 million medium-term credit; not only in the interests of better relations with Iraq but because it will supply a certain element of job creation in this country and anything that creates jobs and increases British exports can only be heartily sought for.
Finally—I say this to the Foreign Secretary without suggesting that I doubt the Foreign Office's word—I do think that we need to look very carefully at what we are actually supplying to Iran, and I hope we will abandon this defence of our position by the explicit use of the phrase "lethal weapons". There are many other materials of war that can be supplied once that term is used and I think the Foreign Office should look, too, not only at direct supplies but at what may be getting in from Britain through second countries. One of the Ministers we talked to went into some detail about those second hand transfers—if one may use such a phrase—between Iran and other countries in Western Europe. I will give the details to the Minister in private if he wants to have them. I do not think it is for me to discuss the internal affairs of other countries, not in the House of Commons; but I think we ought to look very carefully to ensure that the suspicion that we are supplying some sorts of goods for the Iranian war effort is put to bed as quickly as it can be, because it is doing enormous damage at the moment to our relations with that very important country in the Middle East.
6.28 pm
Mr. John Carlisle: The hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) will forgive me if I do not take up his remarks. It will come as no surprise to hon. Members that in this wide-ranging debate I intend to comment on the Government's relationships with the Government of the Republic of South Africa. I shall also refer to what has been happening in that important part of the world over the last few months.
I apologise to my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary for missing his opening remarks, especially as I believe that he made a passing reference to affairs in southern Africa. I understand that in summing up the Opposition spokesman will make a more detailed statement of the Opposition's view.
There is no doubt that events in Mozambique over the past few days have caused a dramatic change in politics in southern Africa. The Mozambique Government are not, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey)

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suggested, unwilling participants. They have willingly entered into a non-aggression pact that could change events for the betterment not only of the people of Mozambique but of all the peoples of southern Africa. I shall spend a few moments on that matter, talk briefly about the contribution of our trading links with South Africa, and then discuss our sporting links with the Republic.
I am pleased that my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind), the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, yesterday during Question Time described the document as an "historic agreement". I join in the message of warm congratulations sent by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and, I believe, many other world leaders to the leaders of those two countries on signing the treaty. The treaty will bring a new stability to that part of the world—a matter which was well discussed in the Daily Telegraph today by my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery). His article described it as a "chance for cooperation rather than confrontation."
I should like to believe—perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister of State will confirm this—that the United Kingdom had something to do with that new approach to Mozambique. In October the British Government had discussions with Professor Marchal, when he was in Britain. The Government made a generous offer to him, wiping out his country's outstanding debts. He also received an award from the Queen. I admit that several Conservative Members viewed those discussions suspiciously. If those offers were a basis of the outcome of these new discussions, many hon. Members would welcome them and congratulate the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on its initiative.
I hope that the new agreement will encourage a peaceful settlement in Angola and in the south-west. We can be encouraged by the Cubans' recent remarks, that they are seriously considering a phased withdrawal of troops, and also the South African Government's movement towards a phased withdrawal of troops. We hope that that will herald a new era of peaceful co-operation in that part of the world. At the same time, it will be up to the Government, including my hon. Friend and his colleagues, to adopt a slightly warmer attitude towards the people and Government of the Republic of South Africa than has been shown in the past. I regret that only one official ministerial visit has been made to that country since 1979. In the next few months, many fences need to be rebuilt.
The importance of Simonstown is obvious to all, as it was during the Falklands conflict. It is unfortunate that we continue the arms embargo to such an extent that we have forced South Africa to export arms. It is unfortunate that we are continuing with the Gleneagles agreement and discouraging sporting links. I believe that here we are supported by the Commonwealth, but not necessarily by many other countries. It is unfortunate also that we are continuing to make accusations about South African destabilisation policy. None of those accusations has any foundation.
The British Government's attitude should be similar to that of the United States of America, particularly since President Reagan came to office. The United States is anxious to help and co-operate, and it would be for the betterment of all the peoples of southern Africa if we took that attitude.
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Many hold allegiance with the people of South Africa, especially among the English-speaking people. They are anxious that the new-found warmth that is becoming apparent is fostered by the British Government. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will acknowledge that feeling.
It must be admitted that there have been several dramatic constitutional changes in South Africa.
I believe that all hon. Members condemn the system of apartheid as a gross violation of human rights, and one which we, and others involved in these affairs, are committed to removing. We must acknowledge that the changes show some movement towards equal franchise, which most people, and certainly those of us who enjoy a full democratic system, would want in South Africa.
Several major changes have occurred in the law, although they may be minor by our standards. There is a continuing relaxation of the apartheid system, albeit not sufficiently fast for people in this country, but at least it is a genuine attempt to relax some of the iniquitous laws that still exist. Undoubtedly the South African Government have a blind-eye policy towards many of the more petty sectors of apartheid. If we are to encourage relaxation of that system, which we all want, then a policy of co-operation, rather than confrontation, will help it on its way. Even the black population, who do not and will not, even under the constitutional changes, enjoy the new political freedom that the Coloureds and the Indians will enjoy, are moving towards a system of better representation.
The trade union movement is now well represented by black people. There are blacks in management and even as company directors. South Africa understands that its economic dependence rests virtually on the shoulders of the black people. They can be part of that process. We should try to encourage some form of co-operation.
We must never forget the number of jobs in Britain dependent on South Africa. I was interested that the hon. Member for Warley, East should comment that we all depend upon jobs. About 150,000 British jobs—those are the Prime Minister's figures, not mine—are dependent on our trade with South Africa. We are dependent on South Africa for many minerals——
Mr. Faulds: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Carlisle: I am sorry, but I must continue,—many of which would otherwise be available only from behind the iron curtain. It is up to us to encourage and foster those jobs.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) has left the Chamber. During the debate on Barclays bank, the hon. Gentleman urged Barclays bank to disinvest from South Africa and to throw away 23,000 jobs, of which 7,000 or 8,000 are held by non-white people. Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman said that some inconvenience would need to be suffered in the pursuit of the abolition of apartheid. Many people in my constituency are dependent on their companies' trade with South Africa, and they would use stronger words if they lost their jobs because their companies disinvested.
In this wide-ranging debate, I must briefly mention the continuation of the Government's policy to boycott sporting links. The Government are slavishly adhering to the Gleneagles agreement. Since this matter was last raised on the Floor of the House by me four or five weeks ago,

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the Government have shown a distinct shift in policy, perhaps somewhat unwittingly and unknowingly. That was revealed by a reply given in the other place by my noble Friend Lord Skelmersdale. On 13 March, Lord Chalfont asked:
"Is it in fact the policy of Her Majesty's Government not to encourage sporting links with countries where, as the Gleneagles Agreement says,
'sports are organised on the basis of race, colour or ethnic origin',
or is it the policy of Her Majesty's Government to discourage sporting links with South Africa while the policy of apartheid remains in force there?"
Lord Skelmersdale replied:
"My Lords, the latter."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 13 March 1984; Vol. 449, c. 627.]
Judging by that answer, it would seem that the Government have shifted their position. I seek my hon. Friend's guidance on that point.
If the Government are saying, "We will not resume sporting links while the system of apartheid remains in South Africa," I suggest that is a complete change from the agreement concluded by the Heads of Government in 1977. That agreement, which is called the declaration of apartheid in sport, specifically states many times that, where apartheid in sport exists, Commonwealth countries would discourage sporting contacts with the country in question. I support that contention. It is an admirable sentiment. Now that it has been proved almost conclusively by many observers and witnesses from all points of the political spectrum, and, indeed throughout the world, that sports are not organised on that basis, but are integrated, that spectators are not segregated, and that there is complete freedom of movement within the sporting complex, and at sporting events, then surely the Gleneagles agreement is out of date and irrelevant? If we are to take the attitude that, unless the system of apartheid is abolished in South Africa, we will not renew sporting links, I suggest to my hon. Friends that we should begin to look at other countries, and ask whether apartheid or some form of violation of human rights exists in those countries. If it does, can we, in fairness, continue to have sporting links with such countries?
I am somewhat saddened by some of the comments made by my hon. Friend the Minister responsible for sport, who, I regret, is not present in the Chamber, in his references to the South African Council on Sport slogan, "No normal sport in an abnormal society." That may be a fairly admirable sentiment, but, if it is carried through to the full, can we honestly continue to play football against Argentina, and tennis against Chile, and should we be playing cricket against India and against Sri Lanka? The list is endless. If there is a violation of human rights in various countries, it is incumbent upon us to discuss it in the House, and to do all that we can to remove it. I suggest that that removal must be done in the fairest of ways. What is good for the goose, if that is South Africa, must be good for the gander, if that is other countries which are violating human rights in the same way as South Africa.
Do my hon. Friends really believe that the continuation of this boycott is doing any good? I submit that it is now doing real harm, not only to the interests of sportsmen in this country, but to the interests of non-white sportsmen in South Africa. If the forthcoming rugby tour takes place
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—I sincerely hope that it does, as, I believe, do at least 108 of my hon. Friends, and, indeed most of the country—it will open the way to tremendous co-operation between the sporting fraternities. I think that the Minister can comfortably ignore the bluffs and blackmails by other Commonwealth countries. We desperately need to warm our relationships with South Africa. I implore the Minister to reappraise his attitude to South Africa, to the South African Government, and to the South African people.
We have heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) that the world has become a more dangerous place in the last few months. South Africa is crucial to the stability of the world, to our economic prosperity and to the well-being of all the peoples of Africa. I beg my right hon. and hon. Friends to consider a policy of dialogue and co-operation, rather than the present policy of confrontation.
6.43 pm
Mr. James Lamond: I wish to refer first to an area that has not yet been mentioned, to my disappointment—the island of Cyprus. About three weeks ago, my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) and I, and several hon. Members from both sides of the House, asked the Foreign Secretary what the British Government were prepared to do about the situation in Cyprus. We did so for a number of reasons, not least because of our past colonial associations with Cyprus, the fact that Cyprus is a Commonwealth country, the fact that Cyprus, with Turkey, signed the Helsinki final act, and, equally important, the fact that Britain is a guarantor of the sovereignty of Cyprus. The Foreign Secretary assured us that he was very interested in the matter, and that he was doing all that he could, and said that he hoped that the initiatives at the United Nations would succeed. I have read the speeches of the Foreign Secretary very carefully since then, and he has never allowed the name of Cyprus to cross his lips in any public speech. Today—and I know that he had only a short time in which to cover many matters—once again he did not mention Cyprus.
I believe that it is possible for us to use our leverage to obtain some movement in the situation in Cyprus. The United Nations is taking a special initiative in Cyprus. I have sympathy with the Turkish-speaking Cypriots, now almost all in the north of the island. I also have sympathy for the Greek Cypriots, exiled from their homes and land, trying to build a new life, in which they had been very successful economically. However, any hon. Member who has visited the island will know that the refugees remain determined, if possible, to return to their old homes and to the land in which they have lived so long. Hundreds of families in Cyprus, after 10 years, are still waiting for news of their loved ones who disappeared at the time of the Turkish invasion. These refugees are almost certain to raise the matter with any hon. Member who visits the island, and to plead for our assistance in trying to trace these missing persons.
I believe that the key to the Cyprus problem lies not in Britain, in Ankara, in Athens, or even in the United Nations in New York, but in Washington. It is no coincidence that the declaration of the illegal Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus took place immediately after the signing by President Reagan of a huge $1 billion loan agreement with the Turkish Government.

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I note that the United States is very willing to use economic pressure elsewhere in the world—in Zimbabwe, and in Argentina—and that matter has been raised in the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee in the United States. Questioning United States Secretary Shultz on the Cyprus problems, Senator Biden said:
"When we are not satisfied with Zimbabwe we reduce assistance. When we are satisfied with Argentina we increase assistance. Turkey is the only country to have recognised the illegal Turkish Cypriot State and we are providing increased assistance to her on better terms. Should we not take into consideration, apart from strategic needs, harmonization with our foreign policy?"
Secretary Shultz said:
"The geographic position of Turkey is strategic."
I believe that that is the reason—and there must be a special reason—why the United States is not prepared to throw its full weight into solving the crisis in Cyprus. It suits what is called the strategic interests of the United States to keep Cyprus in its present unhappy and divided state.
I hope that the Minister, in his reply, will say something about Cyprus, because there is an intense interest, not only among Cypriots living in Britain, but among the British community, in this country, which is a member of the Commonwealth.
I deal next with a matter that should be a top priority, not only in this Parliament, but in every Parliament throughout the world—world peace and disarmament. Let us understand clearly that the negotiations in Europe, involving European and north Atlantic countries, concern not only us; they are of intense interest to the people of every country.
Two world wars have begun on the soil of Europe. About 80 per cent. of global arms expenditure is the result of the defence programmes of the countries which signed the Helsinki final act. That was specifically brought out by the Secretary-General of the United Nations when he spoke in 1975 at the signing of the final act. He said that the 35 countries represented were responsible between them for 80 per cent. of the world's arms expenditure. He said that much could be achieved by those present. Unfortunately, the position then has not improved in any way.
The countries which signed the final act, East and West, can destroy the world 10 times over, but still we are not content. Next year Britain plans to spend £17 billion on defence. In 1985–86 Britain will spend an additional £1 billion, making £18 billion in total. In 1986–87 Britain will spend £18·6 billion. In those three years we shall spend nearly £54 billion on defence, expanding our armoury of weapons all the time. That is £13·5 billion more than we shall spend on education in those three years. We shall be spending £10 billion less on the National Health Service, including capital expenditure, than we shall on defence. Our priorities clearly are for defence spending yet we already have the capacity to defend ourselves and the rest of Europe without further expenditure.
Why do we imagine that only the British people have to make sacrifices because of the arms build-up? Let us examine the documents issued following the nonalignment conference in New Delhi at the beginning of last year. They express great concern about the spreading of nuclear arms and missiles all over the world. Rightly, they do not mention cruise missiles in particular, but there is no doubt that at that time cruise missiles and Trident were much in the minds of the people present at the discussions.
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The documents also mention the huge waste of world resources on cruise, Trident and SS20s which are enormously expensive to a world with finite resources.
The Brandt commission report published in 1980, "North-South: A Programme for Survival" and its more recent "Common Crisis" show that no progress has been made in the struggle to save the world from itself in the three years between their publication. "Common Crisis" says that the world has slipped back even from its unhappy position in 1980. There has been an alarming deterioration.
We are fond of defending our defence policy. Our nuclear defence policy is defended with the argument that it has kept the peace in Europe for 40 years. Perhaps it has done that in Europe, but the victims of the nuclear arms race, the casualties of the hidden, secret war of starvation, sickness and deprivation, are the 800 million destitute people in the Third world. They can only stand and weep when they see 15 million of their children dying of starvation every year. They are the real victims of our defence policy. I speak not only of Britain's defence policy, but of the defence policies of all the countries which signed the Helsinki final act, including Socialist countries. They must also examine what they are doing to the Third world by continuing to build up arms.
That is why I call on our Government to take new attitudes at the disarmament talks in Geneva and Vienna, and especially at the Stockholm conference on confidence and security building measures and disarmament in Europe. That conference has just finished its first eight weeks. It will open again. It is particularly concerned about the confidence building mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) in two interventions. Disarmament measures are important. It is important to decide on a reduction of arms, mutually agreed and verified, but nothing will be achieved until there is confidence between the two sides.
For all our arguments with the French about the Common Market, we do not feel threatened by its possession of nuclear weapons because we have confidence in that country. If we had the same confidence in eastern Europe, we might make some progress in the talks. The talks which have just reopened in Vienna have been going on for 10 years and progress has been practically nil. Some people believe that there is no will to make progress and that we are glad that the talks continue so that we can find out about the other side's military advances.
We should seize the opportunity of the Stockholm conference. I have met Ambassador Edes, who is leading our delegation. He was extremely kind and courteous to me. We had a long discussion and he told me what was happening, as far as he could bearing in mind the confidentiality of the conference. I admire the work being done there, but the remit is too narrow. The conference is discussing and elaborating on some of the baskets that were in the Helsinki final act signed eight years ago. The confidence-building measures mentioned then involved observers at troop manoeuvres over a certain size. The arrangement has worked well. Moves have been made by both sides suggesting that observers should be present when the troop numbers are not as high as are laid down in the final act.
Our ambassador told me that the conference is busy trying to make the agreement mandatory. If no difficulties have been experienced in working the agreement on a

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voluntary basis, is it worth wasting three years on such military technical detail? It is an important matter, but it is not likely to build confidence. I regard that as a waste of valuable time and money.
When the conference resumes, why does not the United Kingdom make a move towards some real confidence-building proposals? Such proposals are on the table and being discussed. I think of an immediate freeze on nuclear arsenals.
The leader of the Liberal party, the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Steel), from his experience of the Soviet Union on a recent visit, said that the Russians do not want to freeze at the present level because they believe that we have sneaked in with cruise and Pershing missiles and gained undue advantage. I believe that to be their position. Previously they have been in favour of a freeze. They agreed to it at the special session of the United Nations and in the United Nations itself. Perhaps they will rein back a little if we suggest freezing at the present level. It is a point that could be negotiated. If it were obtained, it would build the confidence that is necessary before we can take further steps on disarmament.
Why do we not renounce the first use of nuclear weapons? The Prime Minister has said that such declamatory statements are of no great value. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) put forward much the same view when he said that it is a long slow process to build up confidence. We may think that such statements are of no great value, but what do the Russians think of them? It is the confidence of the Russians that we are trying to build up. If they want us to make such a statement, why should we not make it? Surely we are not saying that we will make the first use of nuclear weapons in another war. I cannot believe that our Government are pursuing that policy, although on several occasions I have heard them accused of doing so.
I should like to see a complete ban on nuclear weapons, an agreement on the non-use of military force and an end to cold war propaganda. There are children in this country who have been subjected to such a deluge of anti-Soviet propaganda over the years that they are unaware that the Soviet Union, Great Britain and the United States were on the same side in the last war. They think that our enemy in that war was the Soviet Union. Who can blame them for thinking that when we consider what is printed in the press?
The steps that I have suggested have huge support among ordinary people. Freeze resolutions carry immense public support in the United States. It is interesting to examine the political statements that are being made by the contenders for the Democratic nomination for the presidency. They are taking a freeze seriously. Perhaps it is only an attempt to obtain votes. I do not know whether they are sincere—I do not know them well enough for that—but I am interested to learn that they believe they can get strong electoral support by taking this line. That must mean that there is much support for it in the United States.
If our Government can take a lead in bringing these things forward when the Stockholm conference resumes, we shall have done a great service not only to our own
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country, to Europe and to North America but to the whole world where millions are being starved because of the continual arms race.
7.3 pm
Mr. Peter Temple-Morris: The hon. Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Lamond) has spoken on a relevant and important subject and has made a good contribution to the debate. He will forgive me if I do not follow him, because this is the sort of debate where there is a galaxy of subject areas. We all have in mind that which we individually want to pursue.
Speaking from the Back Benches at this stage of a debate, I often find it difficult to decide what to speak on. The sort of tour de monde that comes well in the early stages of the debate, particularly from the Front Benches, is somewhat difficult at this stage for the less illustrous such as myself. On the other side of the coin there is always the fear that someone may speak about one's specialist subject before one has the opportunity to do so. That is why I had two vague speeches prepared.
Fortunately no one has spoken in such detail as to prevent me from concentrating on the Lebanon. I do not feel that it has yet been fully covered. Any contribution augments the widespread concern about the middle east generally and about American policy there, which has already been mentioned on both sides of the House, from the Opposition Front Bench by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) and in sound terms by my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Mr. Walters) a short time ago. Therefore, I choose the subject of the Lebanon for itself and also as an example of where American policy has gone wrong, in the hope that we may learn lessons for the future.
It is necessary to examine briefly the background. I want to give a short series of points about the background; in no way do I intend to give the House a history lesson. Nevertheless, we must remember that since Roman times the Lebanon has been administered as part of Greater Syria. It is a recent creation, a creature of the French mandate. Its constitution is as recent as 1926 and its formation is not unconnected with the Christian religion. It was always run on the basis of Christian dominance, with built-in safeguards for the rest.
Going from the historical facts to its size and population, we begin to get nearer to the current problems. It is a small country. It has not had a census since 1932 but so far as people can guess, the population is about 3·5 million. What is known is that the Maronite Christians—the constitution was formed on the basis that they were the majority—now number about 900,000. The Shi'a Moslems number about 1·1 million, the Sunni Moslems 750,000, and the Druze 200,000; I am leaving out many minor sects. That means that the Maronites, for whom the constitution was made, are overwhelmingly in the minority.
Mr. Edward Leigh: I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend, but I was in the Lebanon last week and, to get this on the record, I was told by the Druze themselves that they number 350,000, not 200,000.
Mr. Temple-Morris: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's concern with the Druze; I shall promote them to 350,00. I am relieved that his intervention, which was helpful, does not alter the main point of what I was saying.

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In addition to the minority of the Christians, which is the important point to get over, there is the history of the feuding chieftains. They walk arm in arm with the wives of others on the promenades of Lausanne one day, but unfortunately kill members of each other's families the next day. They have been in a state of civil war since 1975. Their nationalism, which still exists triumphantly in spite of everything that has happened to them, is insufficient to combat the religious and other differences of the various communities. They need to be taken by the scruff of the neck and forced to reach a solution. The Americans could not do it; now the Syrians have been unable to do it and I am afraid the agony goes on.
That agony has been reached in recent years, beginning in 1970 with the PLO exit from Jordan and the upsetting of the balance in the Lebanon in two different ways; first between Christian and Moslem, and then between political Left and political Right. In 1975 there was a civil war, and in 1976 there was the Syrian intervention. Important points that are relevant today should be made about that.
That intervention was made on the invitation of the Lebanese Government, and in particular its Christian President. The intervention saved the Christians at a time when they were in dire danger of defeat. One hopes that no disaster will happen now, but a similar danger exists. They were saved then by Syria. Syria has been much misjudged by the United States, but one of the motives of its intervention then was to contain and control the PLO. That drama was completed as recently as last November from the Syrian point of view, when Chairman Arafat finally left Tripoli.
In 1982 the principal, though not the first, Israeli invasion took place. That was both unnecessary and pointless, as well as being brutal. It hopelessly upset the balance in the Lebanon. It accomplished absolutely nothing from the Israeli point of view. It started all the agony again. In August 1982 there was the formation of the multinational force, which was later joined by the United Kingdom. In September 1982, following the assassination of Bashir Gemayel, the Israelis entered west Beirut and within 24 hours the tragedy took place at Sabra and Chatila. I do not intend to make this an Israeli-bashing speech, but when history is written, in any overall judgment Israel will bear a heavy responsibility for what happened in those two camps on that afternoon and night. Bearing in mind that background, we come to 1983 and the involvement of the United States. In so far as I am critical, I criticise as a friend. I appreciate that often we talk about criticising as a friend and go on to give every appearance of speaking of an enemy. While we have close contacts with the United States, we cannot allow our proximity—the Atlantic Alliance and all that we have in common, which is a great deal—to render the Back Benches mute when it comes to policy in other areas of the world, because those areas are vital in containing the peace of the world and are, therefore, not unconnected with the Alliance as a whole.
The situation is extremely serious. Reference has been made to the United States involvement with Israel, to the various blunders that have occurred in the region and King Hussein's recent statement, and my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury dealt particularly with that. All these occurrences are making it more difficult for the moderate Arab states in the area to make their fair contribution to a settlement. Thus, the overall agony is
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prolonged and the extremes are encouraged, be they Shi'ites in the Gulf or in the Lebanon, or whatever other factions occur.
We see in the Lebanon a series of examples of what we and the United States should avoid, and I am speaking particularly about American policy in the area. I recently went to the American embassy and listened to a high-ranking State Department official over a television link with the State Department in Washington. He made constant refernces—this was at the height of the Lebanese war—to the fact that the Americans would "consult and act with our ally, Israel". One could imagine that every time that was said, more difficulties were created for one's moderate Arab friends and the contribution that they might make.
The same applied to the 17 May accord or agreement, designed by Secretary of State Shultz, again reflecting the Israeli line, but completely ignoring the presence of Syria. Nothing was more guaranteed to alienate Syria. That agreement was also based on an erroneous assumption. It was based on a Christian Lebanon approach to Israel, rather than on having a policy addressed to the solution of the whole reason for the agony, the struggle for a sovereign and independent Arab Lebanon; in other words, for a balanced and constitutional settlement in the country.
Worse becomes worse, taking sides, politically and militarily, with the Maronite Christians. I dare say that I am not alone in the House in deploring every 2-tonne shell fired at Beirut from the battleship New Jersey, pounding shells into what was once, and hopefully will be again, a beautiful country. It ignored the root of the situation, the ending of Christian minority domination with the minimal loss of life. Unfortunately, more and more lives are being lost every day.
That was one reason for the failure of Lausanne. Indeed, Israel continues with the same policy till this moment, and one wonders what United States policy will be if it is drawn back into the conflict. The more that it takes sides in the way that it has, the more the Maronite Right wing will be encouraged to bring pressure on a President who is not strong enough and who does not have the political base from which to resist.
The United States also made a fatal error in seeing the Syrians as enemies. They were referred to in the American media—I saw and heard it for myself—as "Soviet surrogates". That is utter and complete rubbish. One of Syria's fears has always been that a war with Israel would lead—as indeed it would—to increased Soviet presence and influence in their country. They do not want that, any more than anybody else wants it. It is staggering to me that, with their resources and wealth, the Americans have not appreciated these basic facts.
The American action also completely ignored the legitimate and historical interests of Syria in the area. Obviously the Syrians will take what they can get, but their conduct at Geneva and Lausanne has at least demonstrated to the world that they are capable of trying to get an independent Lebanon into existence. They have failed, and the consequences of that failure will be dire.
If we insist on seeing everything in simplistic East-West terms, we will not get anywhere, and the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) illustrated the necessity of reaching a wider and more balanced solution. I pay tribute to what my right hon. Friend said and hope that the Government will

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pay heed to his advice, as they seem to be doing in certain respects. My right hon. Friend has been making that case for some time.
America took a partisan position and military action and was seen throughout the Arab world—many of us were there at the time, or have visited the area recently—as having a direct military alliance on the ground with Israel against the Arab world. That is an important point to bear in mind, because it ignored the history and logical political action that should have been taken. Such conduct encourages extremism in all its forms—Shi'ite, Communist or anything in between.
As for the future, the Soviet Union is obviously ready to participate and would like to do so, but it is largely inactive in the area. The United States has retired hurt and Secretary Shultz two days ago said that there were no new initiatives. The Israelis are prepared actively to intervene at any time, and some of their interventions are not necessarily helpful to an overall solution of the problems of the area. Lausanne has been a failure. More fighting is inevitable and the partition of the Lebanon is becoming increasingly permanent.
If the Christians begin to lose the battle—it looks as though they will—there could be a repeat of the 1976 situation, but I do not believe that Syria would actively enter the conflict; it would let them destroy each other further in the hope that they would finally reach a constitutional settlement. Like everyone else, Syria does not want to lose more lives in the area.
That all leads to three basic scenarios. There is not much hope for the first, but it should be mentioned to complete the picture: it is a Lebanese constitutional settlement under international supervision. That would mean, following the demise of the multinational force and in the present circumstances, United Nations involvement. To get United Nations involvement as the price of lifting the veto raises the whole question of the involvement of the Soviet Union in the overall settlement of middle east questions, and my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury dealt with that. In view of all the difficulties involved, for little Lebanon it is perhaps not the most obvious scenario.
The second—which, sadly, is perhaps the most likely—is a permanently partitioned buffer state of the Lebanon between Israel and Syria pending an overall middle eastern settlement, whenever that might come, and hopefully it will come one day. Israel and Syria would perhaps be united in one course; even they would agree that neither wants in the middle a cowboy state that could start a war between them. For that practical reason, permanent partitioning is the most likely.
The third scenario is that they batter and battle themselves into an eventual constitutional settlement, which would be more by way of overall constitutional submission. It is orchestrated by Syria, and I dare say that if fighting broke out soon, which undoubtedly will happen—it is going on all the time and is increasing—the only hope is that eventually they would get tired of it. One mourns the many who would lose their lives in the process.
The tragedy of the Lebanon is a lesson for the middle east as a whole. As ever—one wishes to be constructive when speaking about friends—America is the key, whether or not we like that. The Americans must put pressure on Israel and get beyond their shores and see the
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overall situation. That will enable the moderate Arab states to act. There are many of them and they are only too willing to help if they are given a lead and if they feel that America is being at least reasonably neutral in the matter. If that does not happen, we shall have a continuing war in the area and there will be nothing but bad news for the West and all it represents.
7.19 pm
Mr. Stuart Bell: I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Temple-Morris) on a speech that concentrated on the issues in the Lebanon. One thing that struck me was that he succeeded in recounting the entire history of events in the middle east from 1970 to 1982 with only a single reference to the Soviet Union, and that was to say that the Soviet Union was inactive in the region.
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak, especially as I asked the Leader of the House for this debate two weeks ago, requesting that it be on the middle east and on detente, and I am glad to see that many hon. Members have taken a great interest in the affairs of the middle east, including the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Walters) and my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds).
On the Lebanon and the role of our own contingent of 97 military personnel in Beirut, that contingent was changed during the course of our 18-month stint of duty in the area. Both the first and second contingent mercifully returned to these shores unscathed. I follow the Foreign Secretary in paying homage to those of our servicemen who tried to achieve a difficult and, as it turned out, impossible task with great courage and dignity. One of the original batch of troops was one of my constituents.
Whilst the Secretary of State says that the multilateral contingent made a practical contribution to the peace process in the middle east, my view, before the troops went in and throughout the time that they were there, was that either their presence was a gesture to our United States ally or that, in some nebulous Foreign Office way, this was a last ray of sunshine setting on a British empire where troops could be sent abroad on active duty.
Hon. Members who have spoken on the subject of the United States of America have prefaced their remarks by saying that the United States is an ally and a friend and that, therefore, we ought to be able to talk frankly to the Americans. The United States did not perceive what its interests were, or should have been, in the Lebanon and there are indications today that this view was shared by many in the United States Administration. It was certainly the view of Caspar Weinberger who thought, according to today's Daily Telegraph, that the entire venture was a mistake. So there were divisions within the Administration on what should be done in the Lebanon.
The proper interest of the United States in the middle east—and I say this sincerely, having studied the history of the area—must be to support Israel behind secure and recognised borders. There must also be support, as there was in the United States Government, for the concept of a united Lebanon. Many of those taking part in the discussions in Lausanne thought that a united Lebanon was the kind of Lebanon they wanted, that it was a question of a constitutional change to rectify the imbalance between Christians, Shi'ite Moslems and others that had crept in over the years. But the fact is that those talks have broken down and that this is a calamity for the concept of a united

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Lebanon. it may end in the partition of the area. Those who really consider partition and its consequences to all the communities of Lebanon, with the transfer of people from towns to other areas, will see how calamitous that possibility is.
The other United States interest in the middle east is in an autonomous West Bank and Gaza strip. I note in passing that when the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs referred to this autonomy he mentioned the Israeli settlements on the West Bank. The fact is, however, that there are 25,000 Israelis living in those settlements and 800,000 Arabs. The settlements which existed in Sinai were not ultimately an obstacle to a treaty of peace between Egypt and Israel. That treaty was signed and is effective. Regardless of the comments made by the hon. Member for Westbury on the disillusion of President Mubarak with United States diplomacy in the area, that peace treaty stands. The settlements, therefore, are not and never have been an obstacle to peace in the middle east and certainly not an obstacle to an overall peace in the area.
Power, as the United States has learnt, and as it should have learnt in Vietnam, has its limitations. The limitations in the middle east were clear. The United States involved itself in Lebanon with troops on the ground. It sent in the majority of the multinational force. The limitation of such power was not only foreseen but invevitable and in the end spelt tragedy for the United States marines who lost their lives.
Having said that, I do not ally myself with those who say that we are free to criticise the United States. We can criticise the Administration. Opposition Members have no love for the policies of President Reagan and we can be said to be anti-Reagan. However, we are not—and this is the policy, I hope, of the Labour party as well as myself—anti-American. We are not supporters of the Government of Israel, of Menachem Begin or of Mr. Shamir, but that does not mean that we are anti-Israel or anti-Israeli.
We have had a lesson today on the course of history from 1970. I would like to go back somewhat further, to the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly of 29 November 1947, the resolution that created the state of Israel. We hear a great deal about resolutions. They are continually referred to by the parties in the middle east and they are very often United Nations resolutions. Yet that particular resolution, passed by a two thirds majority of the General Assembly, gave reality to the state of Israel and was supported by the Soviet Union, the United States and Great Britain. Since then, Israel has had the right to exist behind secure, stable and recognised frontiers.
There are those who say that the United Nations does not and cannot have power to create states by fiat ex nihilo. Robert Browning said,
"Ah, but a man's reach must exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?"
What is the United Nations for, if it cannot create a state, if it cannot create a situation under international law where people can live in peace? If that is not one of the objects of the United Nations, then the world is poorer for it.
I should like to give a clear, articulate and concise view of what Israeli foreign policy in the middle east should be. These are not my views; they are those of Abba Eban, former Foreign Secretary, as he gave them to the Knesset on 5 September 1983:
"There is no Israeli interest that will be advanced by war between Israel and Syria; there is no Israeli interest that will be advanced by a prolonged deployment of Israeli forces along the Awali line; there is no Israeli interest which requires the
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maintenance of our forces on Lebanese soil, with the withdrawal of the Syrian army as a sine qua non. The sole Israeli interest is to guarantee the peace and security of its northern settlements."
Security is the minimum entitlement for a nation state.
I was grateful to learn that the Foreign Secretary will shortly be visiting Israel. Like others who visit that country, he will immediately perceive the great yearning for peace there. I hope that, if an invitation is given to Her Majesty the Queen to visit that country—it is a democracy with free elections, and it may have them shortly if the present Government fall—the Foreign Secretary will not take on board the point made by the hon. Member for Westbury and impose a political condition on the visit. I shall write to the Foreign Secretary to ask for an assurance to that effect.
What we are talking about in Israel is a Jewish religion, a Jewish heritage and a Jewish culture. We are talking of a Jewish state that does not seek to absorb 800,000 Arabs on the West Bank to dilute its Jewishness and to take away its sovereignty and its traditions. Those are the purposes of a Jewish state in Israel. We seek peace for Israel with its neighbours, but we do not believe that that peace should be a prelude for the Israeli peoples to be subsumed into another state or pushed into the sea.
The Foreign Secretary mentioned the Fez plan, which seemed to suggest that there was some merit in it. One of the aspects of the plan to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not refer was that Israel should withdraw from all the Arab territories occupied in 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. Another part of the plan was the creation of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. A third feature of the plan was that the United Nations Security Council would guarantee peace for all the states of the region, including the independent Palestinian state. The United Nations, having been present at the birth of the state of Israel in 1948, should not on those terms be invited to its demise.
We talk about the interests of the Soviet Union in the middle east. Those who think that somehow the Americans stumbled into the middle east should be aware of a fact that it was not until 1962 that the first Phantom aircraft was sold to Israel by the United States. That was the point that I wanted to make to the hon. Member for Westbury in an intervention but, unfortunately, he declined to allow me to do so. The Soviet Union began to send arms into the middle east in 1955 and the United States followed suit in 1962. There is a history lesson in that for us all, and it is one that we should not forget. Since 1954, the Soviet Union has consistently vetoed proposals in the United Nations for peace in the middle east. The Foreign Secretary referred to the proposal to keep a multilateral force in Beirut, which was vetoed by the Soviet Union only three weeks ago.
What has the Soviet Union done over the years? It has consistently satisfied Arab demands for the replenishment of weapons. Every time the Arabs have lost a war in the middle east—the Foreign Secretary referred to four wars in 36 years but he was wrong; for there have been six wars in that period which have been fought with Soviet Union arms on the one hand and American arms on the other—the Soviet Union has replenished their stock of armaments.
What did the Soviet Union do in 1982 when the Syrians had lost equipment in the Bekaa valley to the value of $1,000 million? It replenished that stock with equipment to the value of $2,000 million. It has not been mentioned

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so far, but it sent for the first time Sa-5 missiles to Syria, which are regarded as the most sophisticated surface-to-air missiles in the Soviet's inventory. Those who call the Soviet Union inactive in the middle east have forgotten that there are 5,000 Soviet soldiers in Syria and 3,000 Soviet advisers who are helping to train the Syrian army. Those are the facts, and they have never been denied.
One of the great problems which the world might have perceived but apparently has not understood is that when the American troops were in Beirut and the Soviet military and its advisers were in or near Damascus, only 50 miles separated the two. We have all heard of the war in which the Russians fought when they lost 20 million men. I remember the end of the second world war in 1945. I saw the film clips and watched Soviet soldiers meeting American soldiers at the Elbe and shaking hands with one another. British troops were also present. Not since those days have American and Russian troops been so close to one another. The closeness of those troops between Beirut and Damascus was a great source of danger to the world, especially the middle east.
We must never forget that there is global competition, however we may look at it, between the United States and the Soviet Union. We must never forget that this competition with the United States has cost the Third world an enormous amount.
The leader of the Liberal party mentioned that Russia's sales of arms in the Third world have trebled and that this has led to a serious confrontation with the United States. There are some remarkable paradoxes in the global confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union. The United States, which is the bastion of democracy, will support non-democratic regimes to prevent non-capitalist development in Third world countries because it perceives behind such development the shadow of Marxism and Leninism. That is one of the features to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) referred. In its turn, the Soviet Union will turn its back on local Communist parties, as it has done consistently in the middle east, much to the dicomfort of ideologues in the Kremlin, to gain an advantage over the United States.
In considering events in the middle east we must return to detente, which has been mentioned only once so far in the debate. Detente must be better than global competition leading to global confrontation. In thinking of detente in the middle east, I am reminded of the Sanskrit philosopher who taught his pupils the arts of contemplation and meditation in the Himalayan hills. One day he sent a pupil down to the nearest village for a pan in which to boil some water. The pupil returned with a pan that leaked. The teacher said to him, "You are a student of philosophy but that does not mean that you have to buy a pan that leaks." Although we believe in detente, that does not mean that detente should cloak further global advances, or attempted advances, of one super-power towards another. The Labour party is a member of the second international and a supporter of the Brandt report. It wishes to see the development of the world and not its ruination. We wish to avoid it becoming an ideological battleground for superpowers.
It has been said that in the United States the term "surrogate" has been used to describe Syria and its relationship with the Soviet Union. Syria is no more a
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surrogate of the Soviet Union than Israel is of the United States. However, it must be apparent, even from this necessarily brief review of the events in the middle east, that all these issues and problems are those of the middle east, and as such require a middle east solution. The Venice declarations on the middle east and Lebanon, with their haughty ideals, have proved irrelevant to the peace process generally and to the establishment of the independent, sovereign and territorial integrity of Lebanon. Neither the Camp David accords nor the Reagan plan have brought autonomy over their own affairs for the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank. The conviction in the area that the United States could achieve an overall settlement has been weakened by its role in the Lebanon.
The Soviet Union must ask itself—I trust that its new leadership will do so—whether the time has come to cease its dangerous and perhaps one day its deadly competition with the United States, which brought the forces of both countries so close to each other.
There have been regular exchanges between the United States and our partners in the Ten, as well as the parties themselves, on the middle east. Notwithstanding the lack of consultation over Grenada, it must be right for Her Majesty's Government to seek to use their influence with the United States, which remains our most important ally and with which our collective security is bound. That is accepted by the Labour party, which has consistently passed resolutions at annual conferences to the effect that we should stay within the confines of NATO for our own defence. Her Majesty's Government should seek to influence the Arab world, and the Foreign Secretary recently visited Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria. I understand that he is shortly to visit Israel. He should seek to maintain the Government's influence and to continue his journeys to the middle east. As the Labour party has said, he should visit Israel. It would be unfitting, and perhaps unseemly, to describe the Foreign Secretary as a bird on the wing. However, in metaphorical terms, when he travels to Jerusalem and Moscow he can be a bird on the wing for peace. It is for that reason that I welcome the debate and wish the right hon. and learned Gentleman well in his travels.
7.39 pm
Mr. Richard Ryder (Mid-Norfolk): I enjoyed listening to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell) and to my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Temple-Morris). I hope that they will both forgive me if I do not also speak about the middle east and Israel.
The visit to London next week of the Soviet Foreign Minister Mr. Kornienko and that of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary to Moscow in July are said to mark the improvement in Anglo-Soviet relations. While I welcome the visits, I have no doubt about the emphasis which the British Government should lay on human rights issues at their talks with Soviet Ministers. It dismays many hon. Members that the heirs of the Soviet Governments which liquidated more than 20 million of their own people to secure their existence, should now be practising anti-semitism.
If such discrimination was practised in West Germany or even in the United Kingdom, those countries would rightly become prime targets for constant United Nations scrutiny and deprecation. Doubtless international sanctions of one form or another would play their part in reflecting the abhorrence of world opinion. Yet the danger

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is that, in growing accustomed to Soviet behaviour, we accept it as an unpalatable fact of life without condemning it persistently. Perhaps the evils of one-party states are seldom recognised by those who do not encounter them at first hand.
The Helsinki agreement was heralded by many as a watershed between cold war and warmer detente. A leading Western politician who expressed reservations, if not misgivings, about the agreement was the then Leader of the Opposition, now the Prime Minister. She warned that because the Soviet Union was afraid of truth and liberty it prohibited its people from enjoying the freedoms that we take for granted. A nation that denies those freedoms to its own people will have few scruples about denying them to others, agreements or no agreements.
At Helsinki the Soviet Government assented to the following paragraph in basket 3 under the heading "Cooperation in Humanitarian and Other Fields":
"The participating states make it their aim to facilitate freer movement and contacts, individually and collectively, whether privately or officially, among persons, institutions and organizations of the participating states, and to contribute to the solution of the humanitarian problems that arise in that connection."
Hon. Members should ask the survivors of the Helsinki watch groups how the Soviet Union has met that pledge, and ask the Soviet Jews what results sprang from basket 3. The facts speak for themselves. In 1983 the Soviet Union allowed about 1,300 Jews to emigrate—the lowest total in 20 years and the fourth year running when the number dropped sharply.
The authorities regard the desire to emigrate as disloyalty, bordering on treason. Soviet law does not even recognise the right of Soviet citizens to emigrate by choice, despite the Soviet commitment to basket 3 of the Helsinki agreement. The Soviet Government have fostered anti-semitism and widened discrimination against Jews in employment and promotion. They have suppressed attempts by Jews to organise unofficial cultural or religious activities, to study Hebrew and to publicise their efforts to emigrate.
My hon. Friend the Minister on 30 January 1984 confirmed that children had been facing difficulties at school, students with university admission and young men with premature call-ups for military service. To support that assertion, I shall be specific. The number of Jewish students in Moscow's universities is roughly half what it was 10 years ago. The overall decline of the Soviet Jewish population has been a factor, but the student population decline in universities has been three times as great.
The Soviet Union went to Helsinki eager to secure confirmation of the post-second world war boundaries of its empire. To secure formal approval of those borders the Soviet Union made so-called concessions on human rights, which have been ignored persistently. That is not surprising. Where men and women are denied the right to express opinions on the laws that govern them and the composition and practices of their Government, anti-semitism and wider suppression of human rights are inevitable and usually rife.
The British Government, in forging closer links with the Soviet Union, should, as the Foreign Secretary underlined, moderate expectations. It is equally crucial that they stress in all their dealings with the Soviet Government our condemnation of their anti-semitism and
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suppression of human rights. It would be shameful if those who are fighting for freedom in the Soviet Union formed the wrong impression of our talks with their Government.
Only a few months ago Mr. Chernenko declared:
"When we come across violations of Socialist laws camouflaged by religion, we act in accordance with the demands of our constitution."
His meaning was clear.
The Government must make sure that the language and meaning of our diplomacy is no less clear on human rights issues when Mr. Kornienko comes to London next week, and when the Foreign Secretary visits Moscow later this year.
7.47 pm
Mr. Greville Janner: I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Ryder) on his speech, which emphasised that despite the disagreements that invade the House, there are areas of common humanitarian concern. The Soviet authorities will read his speech with more interest and greater attention than they would if I had made it. They know that my grandparents came from a land which is now part of the Soviet Union.
I add my plea, personally and on behalf of the Jewish community of this country, to those who meet Mr. Kornienko next week to raise their voices with ours to protest at the harassment and persecution of the Jewish minority in the Soviet Union. It is contrary to Soviet laws, contrary to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and contrary to the Helsinki final act. Yesterday, in answer to a supplementary question, the Foreign Secretary said that he would not meet Mr. Kornienko himself because he would be abroad. I hope that the Prime Minister will see him and take the opportunity to emphasise these points to him. She should perhaps mention well-known people such as Ida Nudel and Vladimir Slepak, who have been in bondage for many years. She could also mention the names of some of the thousands who are less well-known, such as my friend Alexei Levin who has been waiting to leave Russia for years and is slowly going blind, but whom the Russians will not allow to leave.
I shall present to the Foreign Secretary or one of his Ministers, a remarkable Hebrew Bible, signed by hundreds of hon. Members who sat in this House during the last Parliament, or who sit in the present Parliament, and request that Mr. Komienko should arrange for it to be handed to Anatoly Shcharansky, who is in prison. If it cannot be handed to him, it should be returned to this House until the day when Mr. Shcharansky comes to collect it.
The Soviet Union is not playing a moderate role in the middle east or elsewhere. A moderating influence moderates people in favour of our view. My hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), in his ludicrous speech, said that the Iraqi Government were moderate. That that revolting, dangerous, military dictatorship is regarded by him as moderate shows what he believes to be moderation. One must accept in this House that some hon. Members, who may otherwise be regarded as reasonably sane, prefer to ally themselves with the most disreputable military dictatorships and the most old-fashioned, nasty, feudal regimes than with democracies, however unsatisfactory.
If hon. Members are to turn their minds and friendship away from democracies which are not performing well, which have Governments that we deeply dislike, and

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which are in countries governed by parties with which we disagree, they will acquire a low view of the democracy in which we are privileged to live and serve. We should look round the world for our friends, to countries which are operated as democracies, and we should support them.
I have just returned from a journey which included India and Sri Lanka. India is the largest, most populous and amazing democracy in the world. When I was there I was asked what I thought about the way in which India was governed. My reply was that Britain is rich with oil, coal and gas, and look at the mess that we make with only 55 million skilled and educated inhabitants. How dare we criticise India, which must try to govern 680 million people?
I conveyed to Mrs. Gandhi and to her Foreign Minister the outrage felt in Britain about the murder of that decent, kindly and excellent diplomat, Mr. Mhatre, by Kashmiri terrorists. I also conveyed my deep dislike of the "Eastern Eye" programme, which saw fit to put forward the point of view of the Kashmiri terrorists. Such a television programme is just as distasteful as one that puts forward the views of any terrorist organisation, whether it be the PLO, the IRA or the Naxalites.
In some people's language a terrorist is someone who kills our people, whereas someone who kills other countries' citizens is called a freedom fighter. To me, those who kill innocents, in the guise of freedom fighting, are terrorists wherever they might be found. We should do much more than we do at present to help-India to preserve its democracy, which is rare and amazing, warts and all.
We then visited Sri Lanka, which is another country that is wrapped in the tragedy of violence. Unlike India, where Hindus kill Sikhs, and Sikhs kill Hindus, in Sri Lanka the Tamils and Hindus are fighting. My wife and I were received by President Jayawardene and his wife. Again, that democracy requires all the support that we can give. It gets some support, but not enough. The Minister in charge of the Victoria dam project in Sri Lanka, Gamini Dessarayake, asked me to convey to the House his appreciation, and that of his people, for the way in which the Labour Government initiated the project and the Conservative Government are carrying it through to completion.
I move across to Uganda. This concerns people from India and many of my constituents. Uganda is another country trying hard to conduct its affairs democratically. Recently its Prime Minister was in London, and I now again put on record his assurance to me that it will not be long before Uganda compensates those dispossessed Ugandans who now live in Britain. I hope that he will keep his word, and many hon. Members will do their best to ensure that he does.
Idi Amin dispossessed many good people who are entitled to regain their possessions, or, if they cannot regain them, to receive the reparations which decency and humanity require for them. It is a tribute to Uganda, which did not have to pass a law authorising reparation, that it did so. We shall pay that tribute with much more urgency and pleasure when the payments begin to those who were attacked, moved out and ruined, as were so many of my constituents of Ugandan origin.
The violence in India, Sri Lanka and Uganda is mirrored throughout the world and should not be underestimated. My right hon. Friend the Member for
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Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said that we should not overestimate the extent of Libyan financing of terrorism in the world. I would say that Libyan financing of world terrorism is one of the world's greatest dangers. I arrived back from the far east and Australia to the reverberations of more bombs planted by Libyans in our streets, and more shootings here by Libyans of other Libyans. I have visited the previous Israeli ambassador, Shlomo Argov, who is still confined to a wheelchair and can move only one finger.
I have a deep loathing for all terrorists and a realisation that too many of them are being trained in Tripoli and financed by the Libyans. My right hon. Friend should recognise that this is happening. Just as democracy is a universal joy to be helped on its way, terrorism is a universal evil, whoever performs it. We should recognise its origins and deal with them where we can.
Unfortunately, none of the hon. Members who spoke about the PLO recognised that that organisation has frequently refused to renounce terrorism as a weapon. Whether it is the PLO of the Syrians or the PLO of Arafat, that organisation—whose latest outrage was the blowing up of a bus in the streets of Jerusalem—is just as offensive as the terrorist organisations of any other nations that are engaged in the killing of civilians. I do not understand how the Government can call for Israel to sit alongside people who espouse the terrorist policy and are determined to wipe out the state of Israel, while the Government refuse to sit with those who are recognised as terrorists in this country. They are engaged in a similar destruction of innocents, but in the latter case it happens to be innocent citizens of the United Kingdom. Terrorism is universal, and terrorists should be treated in the same manner from wherever they emanate. These dishonest distinctions should not be made.
The Foreign Secretary said today that the Arabs, especially the Palestinians, have refused to recognise "clearly" Israel's right to exist. They have not done so at all. The Foreign Secretary was uncharacteristically naive in praising the Fez statement. No democratically elected Israeli Government could sit with the PLO while it is determined to destroy Israel and while it refuses to renounce terrorism. No democratic Israeli Government, whether Socialist or Conservative, could survive if it sought to do so. We should recognise that democracies, whether in India, Sri Lanka or the middle east, are fellow states that we should try to uphold. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell) on understanding that and on proclaiming it in his excellent and lucid speech.
We are living in a world of tragedy. No one seems to care about the people killed in the war between Iraq and Iran. We heard some excellent speeches today, some saying that we should support Iraq and others that we should not underestimate the horrors of Khomeini-ism. But no one talks about the people lying dead. We do not know about that, because no one goes there and television cameras are not allowed in. It is a continuing and awful tragedy for human beings, who are being destroyed in a war that is much larger than that in the Lebanon.
In the Lebanon, 90,000 people were killed before the Israeli campaign to allow the people on its northern borders to live in peace, but no one mentioned them. No one cared. Since then, 30,000 people were killed in the city of Homs in Syria, but there was no mention of it in the debate because it did not suit people to mention it.

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Syria is a peculiarly nasty military dictatorship that will kill anyone who stands in its way. Its neighbour, Israel, is a democracy with all the defects that Churchill described when he called British democracy an awful system, but said that it was by far the best we had. Democracy is the best arrangement that we have, and we should support democratic nations. They are, God knows, few enough.
I was honoured to be the guest of President Sadat before terrorists shot him because he had made a peace treaty with the democracy of Israel. I do not understand how the Government can continually condemn the agreement between Lebanon and Israel to live in peace. How can they consider with favour the abrogation of this second agreement between neighbours to live in peace? That is a tragedy.
Mr. Jumblatt is in the United Kingdom, but the Foreign Secretary did not say a word about that. I should like to know, when the Minister answers, whether Mr. Jumblatt admitted the awful errors that he had made in stirring up horror, death and dissension in that tragic country. If the Syrians would leave, that sad land would be left in peace. All the other nations have said that they would be glad to go, but the Syrians will not leave Lebanon.
Mr. Jumblatt is our dishonoured guest. I note that the Minister of State shakes his head. But I should be very interested to hear what Mr. Jumblatt has to say while he is in Britain, and I am sure that the House would, too.
On a happy note, those of us who know President Herzog of Israel are absolutely delighted that he will be an honoured guest here for several days. It is good that he will come here. He will be well received. I hope that that is a sign of the Government's intention to create better relations between our great and ancient democracy and that tiny and embattled lone democracy in the middle east.
I join my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough in saying that if an invitation is extended to Her Majesty the Queen to follow her visit to Jordan by a visit to Israel, it should be accepted in the spirit in which it is offered.
I asked the Foreign Secretary a little while ago why the Government has arranged for the Queen to visit Jordan now when there are such terrible political problems there. Mr. Arafat has just left and there is war on both borders. Her Majesty may be put at personal risk. Although this is the worst time to visit Jordan, the Foreign Secretary said that the visit is being made in return for an official state visit made to the United Kingdom by His Majesty King Hussein in 1966. I suggest that Her Majesty's Government are acting with their customary urgency. If that state visit takes place. I suggest that it is reasonable for the Queen to visit the neighbouring democracy that has more in common with this country. Although Israel has not been a monarchy since the days of King Solomon and King David, the democratic tradition was created then. There were a few kings after that time but none in modern times.
Mr. Dalyell: It is 8 o'clock and many hon. Members are waiting to speak.
Mr. Janner: I respectfully suggest to my hon. Friend that I have been brief. I am about to conclude my remarks. If my hon. Friend wishes to speak on the Falklands, he will have his moment, just as he has had many hours in the past.
Mr. Dalyell: I do not keep my hon. Friends waiting.
Mr. Janner: This is the first occasion, for some time, that I have been called to speak in a foreign affairs debate.
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We should be seeking, in our own way, to find and help democracies. We should root out terrorists wherever they appear in the world. The trouble with too many of our past and present policies is that they have operated in the opposite direction.
8.3 pm
Mr. Keith Best (Ynys Môn): The hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) always speaks with great passion on foreign affairs and it is always a pleasure to hear him. I understand that Mr. Jumblatt came to Britain of his own volition, and was certainly not the guest of Her Majesty's Government, or of anybody else.
The hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that we must concern ourselves with the troubled world and how to make it safer.
The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary deserve our congratulations on seeking peace and greater global security through their new attitude towards the USSR and a broadening dialogue with the Russians. I hope, with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Ryder) and the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West that representations will be made on human rights in the Soviet Union.
Throughout history, war and dissension have been occasioned through one country's misapprehension of another's intentions, or miscalculation of another's actions. Britain suffered from that in the southern Atlantic. We cannot afford misunderstandings with the Soviet Union. I welcome the Government's initiative and wish it well. It is based on the sound and axiomatic philosophy that one cannot reach agreement with or persuade anyone without dialogue. Moreover, it is difficult to understand the complex internal situation of any country without visiting it regularly. I have yet to leave a country without a greater understanding of it than I entertained before I went there. Judgments about any part of the world should be constantly revised in the light of current events.
I wish to address a few remarks about southern Africa. I believe that the need for a constant revision of judgment is especially relevant to that part of the African continent.
On Friday, 27 February 1984 the state opening of the South African Parliament took place. It was the last occasion on which that Parliament would sit according to the Westminster model. Its procedure has been so similar to that of the United Kingdom Parliament that the Clerks turned to "Erskine May" for guidance.
When the South African Parliament next meets later this year it will be under the new constitution that was approved in 1983 by 66 per cent. of the white voters, That established a tricameral legislature, with separate chambers, for 4·5 million whites, 2·5 million coloureds and 800,000 Asians. Some see that as further institutionalisation of separate development and as wholly alien to the concept of a multiracial society in which black people are given equality of human dignity. Many of those who voted for that constitution regard it as an opening—a way forward to give blacks national political rights in due course.
How long can a society based on racial discrimination survive in a world with internationally agreed, if not universally applied, standards of civilised behaviour? I appreciate the confusion felt at the differing views about that constitution. On one hand is the belief that it is the thin edge of the wedge and that further reforms will follow. On

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the other hand is the belief that it is a cosmetic exercise that entrenches white rule and denies any prospect of political representation to blacks.
I fundamentally disagree with those who claim that the most likely route to progress will be violence under the present system. Although many blacks are dissatisfied with the inadequacy and slowness of reforms, two factors make uprising unlikely. The first is economic. Black wages are still very low when compared with those in the West. However, in the past 10 years the wages of black mineworkers have increased by 300 per cent. in real terms. There is no incentive or desire to wreck a system that still has a higher standard of living for blacks than other African countries, although the political rights of blacks are more limited. Indeed, industrial relations and the advent of black trade unions are the areas where the greatest advance is being made in the provision of rights to black people.
Mr. D. E. Thomas: As I understood him, the hon. Gentleman said that the political rights of blacks were more limited in South Africa than in other parts of southern Africa. Is not the denial of the vote the ultimate rejection of political rights?
Mr. Best: I am sorry that I gave way to the hon. Gentleman, as I shall be developing that theme. I hope that he will bear with me until I say more about it.
Secondly, I believe that uprising is unlikely due to the inability of the blacks to unite. There are deep ethnic divisions between the many different tribes and most seem to distrust and fear the Zulus, who are numerically the largest group in South Africa. The last thing that the Tswanas to whom I spoke wanted was one man, one vote, which would mean a Zulu Government in Pretoria. They wanted separate development of their nascent country, Bophuthatswana, which is rich in minerals, now more than self-sufficient in agriculture and a fine example of a country firmly set in the western orb with sensible and intelligent black government. Incidentally, that government includes white Ministers on the basis that the best man should fill the post irrespective of the colour of his skin.
The Tswanas said that they had foreseen what is now happening between the Shona and the Matabele in Zimbabwe: that black people would stick with their tribal loyalties, although the colonial powers drew arbitrary lines on the map giving independence to separate countries but often cutting across tribal areas. The great temptation is to treat Bophuthatswana in the same way as the other three independent states and the six homelands in South Africa because its origin was the same. It was set up by a South African Government to further the homelands policy which many regard as an entrenchment of apartheid.
As a result, it is not recognised by any country other than South Africa, although it is as different from the other homelands as other African states are from one another. Many of the homelands will never be able to exist separately from South Africa because the land is too poor or the idea is politically unacceptable. Chief Buthelezi of Kwazulu does not want independence because that would be to accept that South Africa will never become a multiracial state based on universal franchise.
The people of Bophuthatswana are fortunate in having a deservedly well-respected and humane head of state,
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President Mangope. They have energetic and businesslike Ministers. The Tswanas were settled in that territory by 450 AD, long before the white man came. It is a country that is economically largely independent of South Africa—52 per cent. of its gross national product comes from mineral extraction, it has coal reserves for 50 years and current energy requirements are met by royalties on the production of platinum in which the country is especially rich. Certainly it receives favourable loans from South Africa, but it also borrows from countries such as Belgium and Switzerland.
That small but brave country has transformed its agriculture since independence in 1977. It has been more energetic in selling Government houses to sitting tenants even than our Government have been in selling council houses. The Bophuthatswana National Development Corporation has an obligation to make 80 per cent. of its shares available to the public. In health matters the emphasis is on preventive medicine and health education rather than on purchasing expensive drugs, as is, sadly, so often the case in other countries.
The people of Bophuthatswana asked for independence because they wanted it. They enjoy a truly multiracial, integrated society with no reverse discrimination against whites. I believe that it can be regarded as a stable model black African country firmly set in a capitalist economy. It is a country that wants friends. It particularly wants a close relationship with the United Kingdom, but that is prevented by our attitude to South Africa.
Much depends, of course, on which road we wish South Africa to take towards constitutional development. Apartheid is being broken down, but slowly. Often integration becomes a welcome economic necessity as it is impossible to provide separate facilities for the different ethnic groups. All cricket and most other sports, are now fully integrated. A parliamentary committee is looking into the Mixed Marriages Act. Sadly, there are still stupid, illogical examples of apartheid. In some areas separate buses for whites and non-whites cover exactly the same routes, the former running at such great losses as to make London Transport seem a model system. There are other examples of racial discrimination that no civilised country could endorse and which we rightly condemn, but let us ensure that we condemn them in the most persuasive way—by talking to the South Africans rather than screaming at them from afar.
The new tricameral constitution has no black chamber. Instead, the Government have set up a Cabinet Committee to look into political representation for the urban blacks. Soweto now has a black local government, elected by the inhabitants, and the Cabinet Committee is looking at ways of extending that principle to other black areas. Is all this merely cosmetic or is it a real beginning? In conversations with the Minister for Co-operation and Development, the author of the present reforms, I gained the clear impression that there was no intention to stand still but a plan for further constitutional change.
We must ask ourselves what kind of new constitution we want to see in South Africa—a confederation of states of southern Africa which would include the independent states and homelands and perhaps black areas with municipal status as well as a white state in the PWV around Pretoria and Johannesburg; or a federal structure based on geographical division of the country with most matters devolved to the divisional local government in which there would be a bill of rights and the power of veto

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for oppressed minorities. The former seems to be essentially the course being taken by the South African Government. The latter is broadly the course advocated by the Progressive Federal Party, the principal opposition to the monolithic National Party which has dominated South African politics since 1948 and the introduction of apartheid.
A confederation would acknowledge that black ethnicity among the tribes is so strong that states should be based on those ethnic divisions. This is the most difficult question of all to resolve, and on the answer hangs the whole future of South Africa.
No former colonial power has sought to decolonise by entrenching and acknowledging ethnic differences within a geographical area. Instead, boundaries have been drawn and the people living within them have been treated as a unitary group exercising the right of self-determination. It is argued, however, that black peoples rather than states should have the right of self-determination, but it has never been tried. Decolonisation of the rest of Africa has not been especially successful with tribal wars in Nigeria and Zimbabwe, to name but two. There can be no internationally acceptable solution to the situation in southern Africa if self-determination for the different black peoples means that they are given economically unviable tracts of land for which the whites have no use. Such a solution would be to endorse the Group Areas Acts and the pass laws and the human indignity attaching to them.
If, however, as in Bophuthatswana, black people can enjoy their traditional lands as a separate country with the natural resources that are rightfully theirs, we should not be so ready to condemn out of hand but should at least keep an open mind. Otherwise our judgment may be defective and the judgment of others and of history may not be an enviable one.
8.18 pm
Mr. D. E. Thomas (Merionnydd Nant Conwy): I shall not take up all the arguments deployed by 'the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Mr. Best) in his defence of racism in South Africa, but it ill becomes him to make such a speech on the day after the twenty-fourth anniversary of the horrific Sharpeville massacre. It also ill becomes him to try to categorise the so-called ethnic states in the Republic of South Africa as allegedly independent states. As he knows, that is not recognised by any international Government or agency, because they are puppet client states which exist to bolster the apartheid regime. They are a form of territorial apartheid and the so-called ethnic independence was granted to break down certain forms of racial conflict. The hon. Gentleman well knows that. If he wishes to make propaganda speeches in favour of racism, I hope that he will repeat them in Anglesey.
Mr. Best: When did the hon. Gentleman last bother to go to South Africa to discover the situation for himself rather than being a mouthpiece for the Left-wing press?
Mr. Thomas: I doubt very much whether the South African Government would let me in even if I wished to go there, but I know the situation in South Africa well through my contacts with the British Council of Churches and my international connections with the black movements.
I wish, however, to speak about central America, to which the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey)
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has already referred, and to draw attention once again to the situation there which has been exacerbated by the escalation of United States' intervention in the area.
United States intervention in central America is not new. It has a long history going back to the middle of the last century. The notion of its being America's back yard has been cited since then, with the imposition of puppet dictators answerable to the United States regime. That continues to this day.
There has been a readiness on the part of successive United States Governments to assume that they have a right to dictate the hue of government within central America and that the United States' interest is the overriding interest in that region. That is what makes the situation there so dangerous.
Only this week we have learnt yet again—and this has been referred to by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East—of the mining of a Soviet oil tanker. I should like to quote from the press report on the front page of this morning's Herald Tribune, which stressed the response of the Nicaraguan Foreign Ministry which cited this incident, along with similar damage to Dutch and Panamanian ships three weeks ago. The Ministry said that these were
"part of the de facto blockade that the North American Government promotes as part of its undeclared war against Nicaragua."
Then the statement goes on:
"We appeal to the international community to provide Nicaragua with the technical and military means necessary to defend ourselves from United States terrorism."
I think that we should address ourselves to the form of that terrorism and the support given to it, clearly officially, by the CIA. It is the support for the contras operating from Costa Rica and Honduras—the 6,000 contras who operate freely from Honduras, trained by the United States and by American instructors and financed by the CIA to the tune of $10 million a year.
One hundred and fifty CIA agents are based in that area, along with 300 military advisers and 125 Green Berets. It is within that country, Honduras, that the United States has funded air strips, new radar stations and new troop-training facilities. It has turned Honduras into an air strip for its continuing terrorist war against the independent Government of Nicaragua.
And of course the United Kingdom Government have not stated their position, have not condemned these actions or warned the United States or the international community of the dangers of the involvement with terrorism which is actively threatening the national sovereignty of Nicaragua.
It is understood that the leader of the contras based in Costa Rica, Pastora, was himself in Washington only two months ago begging for further aid from the United States for his troops. There is also evidence that the United States has given financial and military support to the contra groups based in Honduras, primarily the FDN. Raids have recently intensified from across the border, especially in the Miskitos area in the north-east and the centre of Nicaragua—the Matagalpa region.
The doubling of the number of American troops with the Honduran army, mainly along the Salvadorean-Honduran border and the Nicaraguan-Honduran border, has escalated tension, since the Nicaraguans claim that they have found Honduran planes making reconnaissance flights over Nicaraguan territory, and Honduran troops are fighting with contras against the Nicaraguan army.

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The dangers of further American escalation are obvious, not only to the prospects for peace in the region but for the future of the Nicaraguan economy. The mining of the ports of Corinto and El Bluff, by forces using sophisticated equipment which could only have been obtained from the United States, has dealt a body blow to the economy. It has stopped the vital oil supplies reaching the country and it has also stopped the newly harvested crops of coffee, sugar and cotton being exported.
Daniel Ortega has warned that Lloyds of London, as insurance agents, will be increasing the insurance premiums on berthing in Nicaragua. It is not necessary for me to remind the House that it was the blockading of the Vietnamese port of Tonking that led to the Vietnamese war.
United States advisers and spotter planes have been directly assisting Government forces in El Salvador. Given the American administration's belief that Nicaragua is the logistical and supply base for FMLN guerrillas in El Salvador, the stepping-up of activity by the contra forces on the Nicaraguan border points to increasing military and economic pressure from the United States.
The Nicaraguan Government have declared that elections will be held on 4 November, two days before the United States elections. But it does not seem that Nicaragua is being given the opportunity to institutionalise the dynamic democratic process which has been created already in the country. For the first time in the lives of most of the people of Nicaragua they have the vote—and at a time when the country is under military threat and the United States has its economy in a vice-like grip.
There was a rapid growth in the economy in 1980 and 1981—a 10 per cent. growth in GDP in 1980 and an 8 per cent. growth in 1981. There was only a small growth in 1982, and the position has since deteriorated. In spite of the country's crying need for bilateral aid and for foreign currency by way of exports, the United States is sabotaging the Nicaraguan economy through its boycott of cotton. The attacks I have referred to have endangered the exporting of the various crops.
Mr. John Carlisle: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am having difficulty in hearing the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he is having difficulty reading somebody else's writing.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Mr. Paul Dean): Perhaps the hon. Member could speak up a little.
Mr. Thomas: Perhaps it would be easier if I stood nearer to the microphone. Then, if the hon. Gentleman puts his ear to the earpiece, he may hear clearly what I am saying. I am carefully reading the text which I had typed out in order to ensure that I put all the facts before the House. I am pleased to be able to speak in this debate on behalf of the Government and people of Nicaragua. [Interruption.] If hon. Gentlemen are not interested in the liberation of central American states, if they are interested in maintaining dictatorships, that is their problem. I will make my speech, I will put those facts before the House, and I look forward to a response from the responsible Minister. I shall not be interfered with. I will make my speech in my own way despite interruptions by Government Back Benchers.
The United Kingdom Government reduced the sum of their overseas aid to Nicaragua—and this is a matter of
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concern to us—from £127,000 in 1980 to £49,000 in 1982, and apparently only £13,000 of that amount was directly spent on aid. That is contrasted with the amount of British aid to Honduras of £1,072,000. This reduction in aid makes it even more difficult for Nicaragua to recover from a war which killed 50,000 out of a total population of 3 million and in which 100,000 people were injured and property damage was valued at £320 million.
That is the kind of situation in which one would expect aid to be increased rather than decreased. I should like the Minister, when he replies, if he cannot respond to the other points I have raised, to refer specifically to the amount of aid to Nicaragua. I think that there is an unwillingness on the part of the United Kingdom Government to give aid, and that, of course, is because of the Government's political line, which follows so closely that of the United States even in this region.
Yet, as we see a mounting military threat from the contras, and by the United States, with immense economic pressure, it is essential for the Government to indicate their position, both for the British public who take an interest in the affairs of central America—unlike some opposition Members—and also for the international community.
The elections which the Nicaraguan Government have announced will institutionalise the democratic process involving the people of Nicaragua which has resulted from the mass movements and the Council of State since the revolution in 1979. What is the United Kingdom Government's attitude to those elections? They were prepared to send observers to the apparent elections held in El Salvador. We would like to hear the views of the Government on the elections in Nicaragua. The Nicaraguan Government are ensuring fair and free elections, are lifting the state of emergency, will provide equal air-time to all the opposition parties, together with the FSLN, the Sandinistas, and this will result in an equal amount of money being distributed to the opposition parties.
The United States' pressure for instant elections in Nicaragua since 1979 has not been matched over many years by similar pressure for elections in dictatorships throughout central and Latin America. It is quite clear that in 1979 the Sandinistas could have held elections and could have establised a one-party state. They did not do that because they seek to establish a pluralistic democracy. When we consider the political culture of that country we are talking not about a Marxist regime but about a pluralistic regime in which Marxism makes a contribution. The simplistic analysis of central America which has been peddled by sections of the American media and by the official line from Washington and the White House is that Nicaragua is some kind of Soviet satellite intent on bringing Communism to all of central America.
Tomas Borge, the Nicaraguan Minister of the Interior, said:
"What does the East-West conflict have to do with gastroenteritis, illiteracy and the genocide of repressive military rulers?"
It is against that background, with a process of liberation, that the Sandinistas regime has been struggling. Its political philosophy is a mixture of Christianity through the theology of liberation, socialism and national liberation. Its economy is still 60 per cent. privately controlled and state ownership is less than it is in Mexico, Brazil or Argentina. In no way, therefore, can it be

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suggested that the Nicaraguan regime is trying to export its revolution. Its main interest is in maintaining its national independence and in ensuring that the struggle against poverty and illiteracy is won.
For that reason, it is essential that the Government should declare their independence of the United States' line and make it clear not only in Britain, but throughout the world that we will not tolerate any further form of military intervention by the United States, either directly or indirectly, in the affairs of Nicaragua.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: It might help the House to know that the winding-up speeches are expected to begin at 9.20 pm, and many Back-Bench Members still wish to speak.
8.31 pm
Mr. Tim Rathbone: I hope that the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Thomas) will not mind if I do not follow him in his speech. I suggest that he takes care to avoid accepting received wisdom unquestioningly. Nor will I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Mr. Best), but I congratulate him on an extremely good speech of considerable knowledge and reasonableness, on a difficult subject that is only too often misunderstood.
I return to the northern hemisphere. The whole debate takes place against the background of the arrival in London next week of Mr. Kornienko, the First Deputy Foreign Minister from the Soviet Union. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Ryder) and others, I welcome the visit and also the return visit that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary will make to the Soviet Union in July. They are further illustrations of the strength and the positive possibilities inherent within present Anglo-Soviet relations—and, indeed, our relations with other East European countries, as was marked so well by the visit of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to Hungary last month.
Since arms control will necessarily be on the agenda for the meetings in London and Moscow, in the few moments at my disposal I want to put forward some suggested initiatives that could be taken in that crucially important aspect of our foreign affairs. It is probable that little of substance can be achieved until Russia returns to the conference table. First and foremost, to ease Russia's return it is certainly worth considering with our allies restructuring the arms control talks to embrace all European missile talks and all nuclear weapons, including ours and those of the French. New negotiations could address the whole problem, not just bits of it. That would reposition the talks, and thereby we would stand a better chance of a new, positive start being made.
There is another reason for making such talks all-embracing. Having made a reasonably accurate identification of all the parts of the polygot nuclear arsenal, those at the conference table could then consider a limited interim agreement to scale down the number of launchers and limit the number of warheads on each side. Such an interim agreement could break the present log-jam and would provide the basis for a later, more comprehensive treaty—that is the treaty and the agreement that we all want.
In order further to ease Russia's return to such talks, it is worth considering resiting the talks from Geneva to some new town to provide a visible and clear new start—quite separate from those talks that Russia left so
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peremptorily such a short time ago. Before the debate I suggested the choice of a town in Japan, because it was in Japan that the first nuclear bomb was used—and we all hope that that will be the last nuclear bomb ever to be used. Japan would be a sympathetic country in which to locate talks aimed towards that hopeful conclusion.
Wherever those talks may be, when arranging them it will be important not to forget the need also to resume talks about the control of conventional arms—the talks which have just begun again in Vienna having staggered also. We need to discuss the control of chemical warfare, on which Britian has already taken the initiative, and the control of military competition in space must be firmly on the international agenda. Those subjects are at least as important as the de-escalation of nuclear weapons.
In addition to such formal disarmament and arms control talks, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym), I believe that the West should encourage and maintain an open door for properly prepared, genuine summit talks—most especially between the super-powers—just as soon as the collective leadership of the Soviet Union has had the time to rethink its policies on international relations under its new President, and just as soon as the political atmosphere of the electioneering year in the United States allows.
It is interesting to note the new civility of United States presidential attitudes towards the Soviet Union, and that is to be welcomed. The expressions of the President and others from the United States have been based on a new policy of strength and willingness to talk, and that is a step in the right direction.
Such a summit could provide a format and a discipline for future summits on a regular basis at which genuinely informal consultations could take place, without expectation of immediately achieved agreements. Rather, their aim would be gradually to build a better understanding of the differences that exist between East and West and establish a better base from which to overcome those differences.
In any and all such talks, absolute control or reduction of the number and the power of arms is not everything. Indeed, undue stress on control and cuts in numbers can sometimes discredit other modest measures that are valuable for maintaining stability. One specific initiative that I should like to be discussed within the Western Alliance is action to minimise the risk of the mistaken use of nuclear weapons in Europe. If tactical nuclear weapons could be withdrawn from the conventional force structure and the forward areas, be protected in hardened sites against any dangers of an escalation attack, and be placed under a command structure quite separate from conventional forces, I believe that our deterrent force could be preserved, while the risks of use or misuse could be dramatically reduced. That positive suggestion was originally proposed by Mr. Robert McNamara and deserves serious consideration.
The truth is that we live in a worrying nuclear age, with worrying nuclear knowledge. As with all knowledge, that knowledge is irreversible. We have to live with its consequences, but we must influence those consequences beneficially in any way that we can. The most important influence is to work to get rid of nuclear weapons on both sides in such a way that dangerous destabilisation is avoided as balanced scaling down of those terrible weapons is effected and non-proliferation agreements are

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struck. That, surely, must be our continuing aim. It is one that I am sure the Government will be pursuing next week and in the future.
8.40 pm
Mr. Guy Barnett: I wish that I had time to comment on the constructive speech of the hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone). I expect that he had to cut his speech short, but I hope that Ministers and the Foreign Office will take some of his suggestions seriously, because they are of great importance.
The debate has been characterised by reference to a wide range of regional problems of one kind or another, but I believe that the ability of this country, of western Europe and of the United States to do anything about those problems depends upon the health of the Atlantic Alliance in economic, political and defence terms.
The Alliance is proportionately less important in the world today than it was when it first came into being. There have been significant changes, such as the emergence of China as a major world power and the decolonisation of most of the Third world. However, I believe that the Atlantic Alliance could play a more constructive part in economic, political and defence matters if it were healthier and more united than it appears now to be.
The Foreign Secretary spoke about the Atlantic Alliance today almost exclusively in terms of defence, but, as he will know, the Alliance was originally designed to cover the whole spectrum of Atlantic relationships, with the expectation that in the long term western Europe would evolve into an equal partner of the United States and that there would be a natural harmony of interests and affinity of outlook across the Atlantic. Clearly, that has not happened. Over the past few years the relationship between America and western Europe has been uneasy. On some occasions in the past three or four years it has been downright hostile.
There has been a good deal of disillusionment on both sides, and that is not without a certain irony when we remember that the political persuasion of Governments on both sides of the Atlantic ocean is predominantly Right-wing Conservative. One might have expected a larger measure of co-operation, bearing in mind that the Governments of this country, Germany, Denmark and Norway are Conservative, and that the government of the United States is in the hands of a Conservative President. One wonders why it is that, with such a predominance of one political philosophy, relations are not as good as they should be.
The situation was illustrated recently in the negotiations which took place within the EEC. The right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) talked about the need not to pursue narrow national interests. I agree with him about that. Nevertheless, many Labour Members feel that one of the unfortunate effects of the EEC as at present constituted is that it acts almost as an encouragement to disagreement and discord on matters such as the common agricultural policy and the budget, and distracts the attention of the Governments of western Europe from wider and more important issues.
Another unfortunate consequence of the EEC is that, unquestionably, it has divided us from—and caused resentment among—people on the other side of the
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Atlantic. The trade war and the deep hostility in the United States about the common agricultural policy illustrate that fact. There are other reasons, too, why Americans do not look on western Europe with complete favour. Again and again, they have expressed a lack of confidence in a western Europe which, although relatively prosperous economically, is unwilling to make a larger contribution towards its own defence.
We must take those factors seriously, because among their consequences are the deep divisions which presently exist between European countries, and perhaps more strongly between Europe and the United States, in attitudes to issues in other parts of the world. There has been constant disagreement about the middle east, central America, south-west Africa and other parts of the world. The United States and those who live on this side of the Atlantic should draw closer together.
I believe it was my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) who said that we had a duty to speak plainly to the Americans. We can speak with a certain authority about American foreign policy towards Third-world countries. The United Kingdom and France—taking two obvious examples—have both gone through a period of decolonisation and the arrival of independence. The British and French people can speak with authority based on their past experience which could be of value to the United States.
There is another reason why we can speak with authority. During decolonisation, we received much constructive and helpful advice from the United States. We had reason to be grateful at that time for the assistance that Britain received in practical form from the United States in preparing countries for independence. There was the foundation of the Peace Corps. There were schemes, such as that for providing teachers for east Africa, which had tremendous support from the United States. Those are illustrations of the degree to which we gained from American advice and assistance. We should now be prepared to give advice and assistance to America. Our past experience, and the degree to which we accepted help from the United States in the past, should enable the Americans to accept with good grace the advice that we can offer them.
I am seriously worried about the present state of the Alliance. At the Williamsburg conference there was a good deal of bonhomie and splendour, but many of the problems that divide the rich countries were not solved, and few solutions were offered to the problems of the Third world. It is becoming increasingly urgent that solutions should be found. The situation in the middle east is only a reminder of the serious conflicts which are likely to arise in other parts of the Third world, which could spread and engulf larger powers, and perhaps the superpowers as well. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East pointed out, the economic problems of the Third world could also engulf the economies of the rich countries. There is the situation in Argentina and the possibility of an oil stop. Those are two examples of the way in which the world economy and financial system could collapse as a consequence of the failure of the Atlantic Alliance to take proper initiatives and give a proper lead.
We are all conerned about growing violence and deteriorating economic conditions in many other parts of the world, but I do not believe that the Atlantic Alliance can play the part that many of us wish it to play unless we

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and the United States mend our fences and the relationship between the two sides of the Atlantic is improved. I believe that that relationship remains an important key towards lessening tension and solving many of the economic problems facing the world.
8.49 pm
Mr. Ian Lloyd: The whole House will have given a warm and sympathetic welcome to what the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett) has just said about the importance of the Anglo-American Alliance. We tend to hear much criticism of the United States, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman shares my view on one matter. If there are any people on the face of this earth, apart from ourselves, to whom I would give the benefit of the doubt in any area of policy, I would put the Americans a long way towards the top of that list.
We live in a dangerous world, and hon. Members have referred to what I might describe as "critical messes" throughout the world. We now all understand what a narrow dividing line there is between a critical mess and a nuclear critical mass. That is the situation which, in all these critical regions, policy must seek to avoid if possible.
I wish to refer briefly to two remarkable speeches, those of my hon. Friends the Members for Ynys Môn (Mr. Best) and for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle). It takes courage for people to speak as they have done on the subject of southern Africa and to risk and incur the wrath of Opposition Members, who seem utterly incapable time after time of distinguishing between those who say, "This situation must be considered sympathetically, carefully and objectively," and those who say, "This cannot be done, otherwise you expose yourself to the charge of supporting racism." The speeches of my two hon. Friends have, yet again, lent strength to the importance of this question.
Before commenting further on that issue I should like to refer to the profound speech on the European Community by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym), the former Foreign Secretary. The founding fathers of the EEC would have approved of every word he said. In Europe particularly, it is important that we avoid the dangers of the narrow nationalisms which, twice in this century, have engulfed Europe, on each occasion at the cost of 20 million lives. The hydra-headed monster of nationalism is a rapacious beast which, when given the opportunity to feed, tends to devour peoples, populations and nations. We do not want that to happen again in Europe. Therefore, a measured, wise approach to the problems of Europe—always looking forward to solutions and to the fact that there are ways and means of resolving these difficulties—is the only way forward.
However, I believe that these problems will continue to recur in a different guise unless and until—this may take a quarter of a century—the people of Europe have the wisdom to trust their elected European Parliament with the responsibility of controlling the money that it spends through the Commission. As I understand it, the present situation is exactly comparable with the situation in which every county council chairman in the United Kingdom would have the power to veto the expenditure that this Parliament approves. These are perhaps flights of fancy. We know that the political possibilities do not yet exist,
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but I predict that until we have the courage to ensure that the European Parliament has that power, we shall continue to face this kind of problem.
Southern Africa is probably one of the most sensitive and important regions in the world today. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East mentioned the importance of the Straits of Honnuz. They can be defined in different ways. The one most usually used is the geographical definition, which ends literally and physically in the straits. However, when we talk about the importance of the Straits of Hormuz, we should look at the lifelines that proceed from the middle east eastwards to Japan—one of the major centres of Western industrial power—and westwards to western Europe and the United States. In fact, the Straits of Hormuz go down through and around southern Africa through the Straits of Mozambique to the Straits of Malacca going eastwards.
It is just as possible and critical for that vital lifeline to western Europe and Japan to be interdicted in the waters south of the Cape as it is for it to be interdicted in the Straits of Malacca. That suggests that we should now look very carefully indeed at the possibility of that lifeline being destroyed by submarines. If that happens, it will occur on the Cape route. I say that in the context of a submarine disparity of about 360 to 60.
We must therefore look again at defence. It is all very well saying, "Oh, the United Nations has imposed a strategic arms embargo on South Africa." Whatever happens in South Africa, the United Nations will probably impose that embargo into the foreseeable future. It is very much in the interests of a large number of member countries of the United Nations to keep the focus of international hostility and hatred well directed away from their own performances, territories and countries. If they can do that by persuading us to maintain the international arms embargo, they will do so.
There are other directions in which we should move. In the civil nuclear sector, the British civil nuclear industry has lost major contracts. One went to Frarnatome in France. That happens because of our strange attitude of being totally unwilling to recognise change in South Africa.
It is said that the Southern African development coordination Conference—which the Foreign Secretary confirmed in his speech to the Royal Commonwealth Society—is in the interests of the United Kingdom and is supported by the United States. The SADCC, if I understand anything about southern Africa, is an attempt to make water flow uphill, using the resources of the British taxpayer. I regard that as a wholly unconstructive use of those resources. Many better, more constructive and more economic things can be done if we flow with the forces of history rather than against them.
Nothing that the Foreign Secretary said this afternoon has varied his judgments in his excellent speech to the Royal Commonwealth Society. He said that in Britain there is a deep sentiment in favour of the Commonwealth. That I wholly share, accept and agree with. He said that within the Commonwealth there is a "benign Mafia" which is important because it enables consultations and so on to take place. From time to time I would dispute the use of the word "benign", and even the word 'Mafia" exaggerates and criticises what in more normal conditions would be a constructive force.
More and more, the interests of Great Britain in and towards the rest of the Commonwealth are now set against

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the interests of Great Britain in and towards South Africa. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, in his interesting speech, said:
"To speak of shared values in the context of the Commonwealth is to use a truism. But the fundamental characteristic of truisms is that they are true. The Declaration of Commonwealth Principles adopted in 1971 is perhaps the clearest expression of the values which we hold in common. One has to acknowledge that not all members are successful in practising these principles. But they do provide an ideal, a benchmark, towards which all the member states can strive."
Those principles certainly provide a benchmark, and one hopes that most of the members of the Commonwealth attempt to strive towards them. Alas, judging by the analysis of the performance in striving towards the objectives, I fear that many of the member countries of the Commonwealth—signatories of the Gleneagles agreement and all the other condemnations of South Africa, of which there are so many—fall a long way below those ideals. That is a reality which the House and the country must now begin to recognise.
My right hon. and learned Friend said that the Commonwealth
"provides a valuable, possibly a unique forum, free of polemic and bitterness, in which the developing and the industrialised countries can gain a better understanding of the constraints and needs of the other."
I wish that the Commonwealth were "free of polemic and bitterness". Polemic and bitterness are seen day after day, week after week—they were seen yesterday in the Grand Committee Room—and are uniquely and always directed towards South Africa. The Commonwealth is not free of polemic and bitterness.
My right hon. and learned Friend said that we each "can gain a better understanding of the constraints and needs of the other."
My right hon. Friend the former Foreign Secretary said, in the context of the Soviet Union, that we should have a dialogue about our profound misunderstandings. Discussion and contact are necessary.
We disagree with much of what is done and said in South Africa, whatever we may think about the progress that has been made. I am a profound critic of much that remains in South Africa, but that country suffers from unique constraints, difficulties and needs.
We should maintain and broaden our contact with the Soviet Union and those countries with which the United Kingdom had profound disagreements. We should do the same with those whom we seek to influence and persuade.
9.1 pm
Mr. Tom Clarke: Because of my regard for other hon. Members, and especially my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), I shall be more brief than I intended when I travelled overnight from Hong Kong over what felt like two days. I am especially pleased that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is in the Chamber.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) went out of his way during our visit to ensure that the people of Hong Kong could observe discussions on a non-partisan basis. We, who are in opposition, made it clear that the position was delicate, as it involved 5·3 million people, and that we did not wish to make party political points. We conducted our visit on that basis.
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The whole of the debate in the Legislative Council was most interesting. It would be wrong to say that it was colourful. It was a respectful and almost tolerant debate. Nevertheless, it is fair to say—I am sure that the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce), will understand this point because of his recent visit to Hong Kong—that although people of Hong Kong accept the need for confidentiality and respect the British Government's view, opinions are changing. I respect the views of those involved in the extremely important negotiations. It might be helpful if something were said to help the people involved to understand the objectives which both sides of the House share.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton and I visited the new economic zone of Sin Gin. In view of the importance of the economic zone to the Chinese, I hope that they will have regard to the need for co-existence in Hong Kong in the future. The Chinese claim that they want that co-existence. I hope that they accept that it is not only right that the Hong Kong people should continue to enjoy freedom of expression, and so on, but that limited economic dependence—which the Chinese must observe in view of their involvement in the economice zone—should appeal to their enlightened self-interest. I hope that they consider other equally important factors, including the future of the Hong Kong people and their right to coexist with China and their other neighbours.
Although our contribution in this debate is brief—and I was happy to note the tone set by the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey)—I believe that the importance of Hong Kong in Parliament will be considerable over the next year or so. We can expect profound debate and discussion. The people of Hong Kong would expect this Parliament to do no less than take into account all the factors before an agreement is reached, including the Governement's views in the negotiations that are taking place.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton and I were invited to visit one of the refugee camps in Hong Kong, where we saw some of the Vietnamese refugees. With great respect to the Foreign Secretary and to the Minister, we were appalled at the conditions. This is no reflection on those who are doing so much to make sure that the circumstances are as comfortable as possible. We saw a boy of seven who was unfortunate enought to be without parents and without a state. We were told that the prospect for the boy in future was confinement to that camp—significantly, next to a prison.
I fully understand that this is a complicated problem, but if, in the right hon. and learned Gentleman's preparation to visit Hong Kong and China, he could give some constructive thought to that matter and make suggestions to improve the lot of those people, including giving freedom to that young boy of seven, I believe that the limited contribution that I have been able to make to the debate will be more than worth while, and I for one will be grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
9.7 pm
Mr. John Stokes: I always enjoy the speeches of the hon. Member for Monkslands, West (Mr. Clarke). I am sorry that time will not permit me to comment on what he said.
I was in Damascus last week, and I wish to speak about the middle east. In spite of the virtual breakdown of the

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conference in Lausanne, I am not unhopeful that a solution will be found eventually to the appallingly difficult Lebanese problem. Having spoken for some hours to the Syrian Foreign Minister, I am convinced that Syria wants a moderate settlement with a fair distribution of power between Christian and Moslem. I only hope that the Christian leaders in the Lebanon will be more sensible and realistic in that matter than they have been so far. They are now in a position of great peril, and will surely realise that. Syria, with its history, has every right to be concerned with the Lebanon, but I do not believe that it will abuse this concern. The Syrian intervention in the Lebanon was, after all, at the request of the Lebanese Government, and cannot be equated with the Israeli armed aggression in the south.
While in Syria, we found great hostility to the United States of America, particularly over the Palestinian question, which was exacerbated by by the United States' actions in Lebanon, including the shelling of Druze villages. We pointed out that the Americans were our closest allies in NATO. Nevertheless, we left the Syrians in no doubt that we did not share the United States' view about Israel and its aggression in south Lebanon, and elsewhere. It is sometimes difficult for people living in England who have not been to the middle east over the last generation to realise the bitterness which almost all Arabs feel, wherever they live, for the plight of the Palestinians who have been deprived in many cases of their right to live in their own homelands.
I have met people from Jerusalem and Jaffa and many other towns in Palestine who have been driven out by the Israelis, who are mainly immigrants from Europe. It is as though large sections of England had been taken over and occupied by immigrants, supported by immensely powerful armies and air forces. The continuation of Jewish settlements on the West Bank is like a time bomb ticking away, which one day may result in the most terrible explosion. The aggressive attitude and insensitiveness of the Israelis is almost past belief.
I was there just before the inception of that state. The hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) spoke movingly about his hostility to terrorism. He forgot that Israel was born of terrorism and that we, the British, were the victims.
I went to the Golan heights, about which we have read so much. Through the United Nations zone is a large notice, "Welcome to Israel". Just below in the valley is the Arab town of Kuneitra, every building of which was bulldozed by the Israelis before they left in 1974 after seven years of occupation.
I do not want hon. Members to think that I am blind to faults on the Arab side. The Arab nations are still hopelessly divided. The PLO is split right down the middle. The Arabs are still rather vague about the size and scope of the Palestine homeland that they want. Although their terrorist activities in Israel are tiny compared with the enormous casualties caused by Israeli aggression in Lebanon and elsewhere, from time to time they still carry out bombings in Israel which are futile and extremely harmful to their cause.
It never does harm to go back in life. I went to Damascus last week having not been there for 40 years. The Arabs are not a grateful people. They forget that in 1918 General Allenby, with a British army and Arab irregulars under Colonel Lawrence, drove the Turks out of Syria where they had been for hundreds of years. They
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even seem to forget General Spears, who was responsible for helping the local populations of Syria and Lebanon to free themselves from the French mandate.
Unfortunately, Syria has quarrelled with some of its neighbours—Egypt, Jordan and Iraq. The Syrians are not, however, in the least pro-Communist and are quite independent of Soviet Russia. They go to Russia for arms only because they can get them nowhere else. The United States Government's alliance with Israel has driven Syria into the arms of the Soviets.
I learned one other important thing when I was in Syria. The Iranians may win the Gulf war due to their enormously superior numbers and their utter readiness to die in battle. The Syrians are supposed to favour Iran due to dislike of the Iraq Government, but when I asked if they would like to see the Iranian hordes at the gates of Baghdad they took the point.
I saw young Iranian revolutionary guards dashing through Damascas with flags and pictures of the ayatollah on their trucks. It was deeply disturbing and reminded me of old newsreels of the revolutionary Soviets patrolling Petrograd in 1918. The rise of Moslem fundamentalism poses a great danger to the world.
If people ask whether this is of concern to Britain, the answer must be yes. I am not at all worried about Soviet influence in the Mediterranean because it is negligible. I am convinced that it will remain so. I am worried about continuing Israeli agression. The borders of Israel are constantly being enlarged. I am also worried about Israel fanaticism and the danger of it overrunning Iraq and some of the Gulf states with the obvious threat that that might bring to the West's oil.
I am also worried about the United States' attitude and utter ignorance of affairs in the middle east. United States policy seems based upon local, domestic, perhaps electoral considerations and totally ignores the genuine interests of the Arab nations. The Arab nations may have forgotten what we did for them, but they are still friendly towards us. As a country we have still a great part to play in the middle east. One of the most rewarding aspects of my visit to Syria was to observe the friendliness and respect in which we are held by all the Arabs we met.
Finally, I am delighted that Her Majesty the Queen is going to Jordan. King Hussein is a very old friend of this country and his moderate counsels deserve our fullest support.
9.15 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell: When I interrupted the Foreign Secretary he said that his officials were studying the Gayshon/Rice book. I wish to gabble 11 questions to which the Foreign Office should give consideration.
First, the Prime Minister has insisted that there was no contact with the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) in Washington about the Peruvian initiative before the sinking of the Belgrano, but Al Haig, whose memoirs are to be published on 25 March, told Gayshon that there had been "communications with London", according to The Observer of 5 June 1983. Manuel Ulloa, Peru's incumbent Prime Minister, stresses that he kept Ambassador Charles Wallace very closely informed about all aspects of the peace negotiations and is certain that Wallace was in close touch with London. I talked to Ulloa in his house in the Miraflores district of Lima and that is exactly what he told me. Will the Prime

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Minister therefore acknowledge that the War Cabinet changed the rules of engagement, knowing that promising peace talks were in progress?
Secondly, the Belgrano was within the sights of HMS Conqueror before the departure of the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East for Washington on 1 May 1982. Why was the then Foreign Secretary, a member of the War Cabinet, not informed of this extremely important development?
Thirdly, "The Sinking of the Belgrano" and The Economist both make it clear that arrangements had been made for the loan or the purchase or, in some form, the use of a United States aircraft carrier in the event that HMS Hermes or Invincible, or both, were lost in the campaign. Was the Foreign Secretary of the day, and the War Cabinet, made aware of this?
Fourthly, did General Haig telephone the Prime Ministr at any time on 1 May or 2 May 1982 on the subject of the Peruvian peace initiative or on any other related matter?
Fifthly, if, as Peruvian Government leaders maintain, Ambassador Wallace was kept closely advised about the progress of the peace talks through 1 and 2 May, did Mr. Wallace in his turn keep the Foreign and Commonwealth Office informed? Specifically, did he not transmit to London an outline of the proposed seven-point proposal providing, among other things, for an Argentine withdrawal from the Falklands?
Sixthly, after Galtieri's acceptance in principle of the peace proposal, did Ambassador Wallace report to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office that he had been invited, along with Argentina's ambassador in Lima, to attend a formal signing ceremony on the night of 2 May?
Seventhly, did Charles Wallace seek Foreign and Commonwealth Office or prime ministerial authority to attend that signing ceremony and what, if any, instructions were sent to him?
Eighthly, in advance of the War Cabinet decision to attack the Belgrano, was there anyone in London who had been told of the Galtieri decision in principle to withdraw from the islands, or that the Argentine fleet was homeward bound?
Ninthly, if nobody in London was so informed, have any attempts been made subsequently to establish why the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East, the British embassy in Washington and the British embassy in Lima failed to do so?
Tenthly, both the Prime Minister and the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East referred dismissively to the Peruvian peace proposals as no more than a mere outline. Haig described it to Gayshon in his book as
"a formulation that provided hope that a settlement could be reached."
The Peruvians—President Belaunde, Ulloa and former Foreign Minister Arias Stella—all regarded it as a firm and thorough basis for an agreement. How can the British characterisation be reconciled with the United States and Peruvian descriptions? Some of us look forward very much to seeing what Haig's memoirs say about how advanced the Peruvian proposals were.
Finally, was the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East speaking with the knowledge and authority of the War Cabinet when he told journalists in Washington on the evening of 1 May 1982 that
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"no further military action is envisaged at the moment, except to keep the exclusion zone secure"?
Had he been briefed in any way on the military situation before leaving London? Did he have any telephonic contact with any of his Foreign and Commonwealth Office advisers on Sunday 2 May 1982?
I should like to acknowledge the unselfishness of my colleagues which made it possible for me to put these questions which I hope will be answered at some convenient time.
9.20 pm
Mr. Donald Anderson: We have had a good and wide-ranging debate, and hon. Members who have contributed appear to have come especially to the House from all corners of the world. The areas covered have been extensive, and in the main the contributions have been non-partisan. Indeed, partisan elements have been introduced only by those who have taken sides in the various regional conflicts: in the middle east, by those who have espoused the Arab or Israeli cause, and in the southern African context, by those who spoke for or against South Africa. There has been a degree of sympathy for the Foreign Secretary in his conciliatory and moderate approach as he has sought to tone down the megaphone of the Prime Minister.
The constant thread has been the increasing dangers in the world. The debate has ranged over the major trouble spots—central America, the middle east, southern Africa. Hon. Members have talked about the apparent thaw in East-West relations, and my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett) spoke well about the need to keep the Atlantic Alliance dialogue in good shape.
Hon. Members have also spoken about the limited role which the United Kingdom can play in these various spheres, mainly in concert with our allies, whether in the Atlantic Alliance or in the Community. Few are the issues in which we in Britain can have a relatively independent role. One of those was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) who, having arrived but today from Hong Kong, spoke extremely well about those points which he had caught while speaking to the inhabitants there. I am sure that the Foreign Secretary listened carefully to his remarks.
In most cases the role which we can play will be in concert with our European partners. For example, with the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes), I have just returned from Syria. I was impressed with the expressed wish of many of those whom we met that there should be a revival of the Venice declaration, in somewhat changed circumstances, and for a separate European initiative in the area.
We stressed when we were there the key starting point—the paramount wish for the state of Israel to be recognised behind secure frontiers—but the power realities have changed mightily in that area since the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and the ill-advised Israel-Lebanese agreement of May 1983. That totally failed in its key objectives, in that Syria has now replaced Israel as the dominant power in the region; the credibility of Israel has been mightily reduced; in its humiliation the United States has withdrawn from its attempt to play a central role in the region; and the Soviet Union has been brought back very much into a role in the middle east.
The Israeli-Lebanese accord failed basically because it refused to recognise the power realities of the area. It

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refused to recognise that, on a long-term basis, Syria could not allow Israel to be the chief external influence in the Lebanon and could not accept the main aim of Israel, that of a Maronite majority in a unified Lebanon. It was inconceivable that such an accord could have lasted in the long term, given the historical, traditional and ethnic links in the area with neighbouring Syria.
It was made clear to us that the United States was increasingly seen as a totally partisan element in the region. Having failed in its narrow relationship with Israel, it is failing equally in seeking to extend that relationship to Jordan—in attempting to detach Jordan from the other Arab states—and America has only itself to blame for the angry response from King Hussein this week, when he said:
"You have made your choice and your choice is Israel."
Obviously, a number of key questions remain in the middle east, the most volatile and difficult area for world peace today. Is the United States ready to draw, or capable of drawing, the lessons of its failure there? Is it now recognised that there cannot be a long-term settlement in the middle east without some Soviet participation? Can the divided Palestine Liberation Organisation unite, whether under Yasser Arafat or another? Is there any will for unity in the Lebanon? The failure of the Lausanne conference is very disappointing, although a number of contributors to the debate have stressed the constructive role played by Abdul Khaddam, the Vice-President of Syria in those proceedings.
The other major question mark remaining is the likely effect of the Israeli elections, which will probably be called in the fairly near future, if there is a Labour victory. What effect would this have, for example, on the settlements policy? Would it be frozen? Will the adventurism, as is likely, stop? Will there be a response to the very widespread call in Israel for a withdrawal from southern Lebanon?
My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) largely covered the Gulf area. There is, however, one question that I would pose to the Foreign Secretary and to the Minister of State who will sum up the debate. The statement has been attributed to the American Secretary of State, Mr. Shultz, that the United States is no longer alarmed by the threat of Iran to the Straits of Hormuz, and that it will not be possible to cause a long-term disruption to the flow of oil supplies. Is that view, which was attributed to the Secretary of State in a speech two days ago, fully shared by the Government? Because of the great danger of possible Western punitive action against Iran which might bring in the Soviet Union, it is of the essence that we keep the Soviets fully informed of our every move and of our evolving policy in the Gulf area.
Mr. Shultz has said that the United States has abandoned her peace initiative in the middle east for the foreseeable future. With such a failure in the middle east, the attention of the United States has turned to central America, and particularly to El Salvador, which will have the first round of its elections next Sunday. The campaign managers of President Reagan are seeking to ensure, as far as possible, that there are no banana skins on either the domestic or the foreign front before the Presidential elections.
All the signs are that there has been a fairly massive decline in the morale of the Government forces in El Salvador. The President has, therefore, sought emergency special appropriations of £97 million from Congress and
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there have been increased American military manoeuvres with the Hondurans on the Honduras side of the border with El Salvador. The question remains: can the El Salvador regime be saved only by a commitment of United States ground forces?
We believe that United States policy in central America is fundamentally wrong and that our own Government have been too supportive of that policy. We acknowledge, although we do not accept, the position taken by some in the Foreign Office that, although we disapprove of American policy, it is, after all, the Americans' back yard where they perceive major interests and that it is unwise gratuitously to irritate our ally in an area which it considers to be of such strategic interest to itself. The position remains, however, that, in many of the countries in that region, United States policy at the moment is almost totally counter-productive.
For example, the United States has resumed its supply of arms to Guatemala, ignoring both its human rights record and the threat to Belize, which at least provoked a protest from the British Government in respect of that change of policy. The United States has increasingly militarised Honduras, which has been called a gan-ison state. The only real democracy in the region, Costa Rica, is being put under pressure by the United States to abandon its traditional neutrality, to involve itself in CONDECA, and to link itself with the siege of Nicaragua.
Why do the Government accept the United States analysis of the problems of the area so uncritically? For example, they have sent observers to the El Salvador elections, which will take place this weekend. The elections are essentially an attempt by the United States to establish legitimacy for its anti-Leftist drive in the area. We know that the 1982 elections solved nothing. The society is polarised and the country is in the middle of a civil war. Death squads are regularly on the rampage and the degree of security has prevented the participation of all save the Centre and Right-wing parties as the armed forces increasingly consolidate their power.
The election campaign is entirely artificial and representative opinion is impossible to assess. In that context, what meaning can there be for the elections, save to satisfy the United States cliché about there being an emerging democracy in the area? Sadly, the British Government, by sending observers, are tamely playing their role in this unhappy country. Two observers have been sent. One of them is an academic who knows the area well and the other is the former head of the GLC. They arrived on 17 March after two years in which ARENA, the Right-wing party, has intimidated the Campesinos. During their visit to El Salvador, the observers will be escorted by military forces. Their visit is hardly likely to give them a clear view of the electorate's views.
The real danger for the United States is a victory by ARENA, by D'Aubuisson, who has been called a "pathological killer" by an earlier American ambassador. He is forcing the United States to deal with him to establish democracy, as the United States sees it, in the area. The sad feature is that if Napoleon Duarte were to succeed—he has been labelled by the Right-wing parties as the stalking horse of Communism and has made some fairly brave noises about talks with the guerrillas—the likelihood is that there would be a military coup.
The British Government have played the United States game in the area by sending observers, by arranging a series of Foreign Office briefings which could well have

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emanated from the CIA, and by accepting the Reagan view that it is an East-West rather than a North-South conflict. They have made no criticism of the United States policy when the United States Administration have armed and financed counter-revolutionaries working on Nicaragua from Honduras and Costa Rica. We believe that Governments in the area should be judged on their commitment to fight poverty, poor health, illiteracy and maldistribution of wealth and power, not on whether they are prepared to provide bases for United States military forces.
To take up the remarks of the hon. Member for Merionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Thomas), Nicaragua is under siege. The Americans claim that it is not a Sandinista regime and that the Administration are not supported by the people. During my visit there it seemed that there was massive support for the Government and no wish to return to the Somoza regime, which existed before 1979. It is sad that in the middle east and central America, where there could be a separate European initiative independent of the United States, as is called for by a number of bodies there, Europe is incapable of undertaking such a role—even a still small voice at this critical time.
At the past two summit meetings there has not been one element of foreign policy in the communiqué. It is tragic, when those key areas are demanding a European initiative of foreign policy, that Europe is too disabled politically to produce one. It is not the Foreign Secretary's fault. We would welcome such initiatives by his European partners.
The pace of movement in southern Africa is bewildering. We commend the Government on their firm stand against linking the withdrawal of Cuban forces with Namibian independence and on yesterday's statement that progress in Namibia can be made only on the basis of resolution 435. There are interesting developments of South African initiatives in Angola and Mozambique, and there is apparent new stability because of the agreements.
However, it is questionable how long such stability will exist under the present South African system. The peace in Angola and Mozambique is not voluntary, nor a peace of equals. For some time South Africa has sought to destabilise its neighbours and achieve a cordon sanitaire round its borders. The peace is largely enforced by arms and the economic plight of those areas, which has been exacerbated by the drought, and it is hardly destined to be a long-standing peace. Perhaps in Cuba President Dos Santos expressed his true feelings in the communiqué. If there is a realistic attempt to end the instability, it cannot happen so long as the basic rock of apartheid remains.
It is interesting that the South African lobby was mightily mobilised for the debate, but there have been no significant changes in the internal policy of the South African Government. Some hon. Members reminded us that it was now 24 years since the massacre of Sharpeville, yet in terms of political power the black population remains as weak as it was then.
The Government's policy is somewhat patchy. In some areas the policy is robust, clear and principled. Their policy on the middle east is one with which we can agree. On two occasions the Opposition have told the Foreign Secretary of their support and understanding for the Government, for example, on Hong Kong. However, we wish to know more about developments there.
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In our broad interests, which were defined so well by the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) the former Foreign Secretary, and in the long-term interests of the Alliance, we must be seen in certain key areas to distance ourselves from United States policy where it seeks to view everything in a single-eyed, East-West perspective. We should stand back. In the Lebanon this East-West perspective has driven Syria and its allies into the arms of the Soviet Union. It is, therefore, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I fear that Britain has not fully adjusted to the new role that has been evolving during the past 30 years or more. The Alliance is strong enough for us to have a separate policy in concert with our European partners. It would be in the long-term interests of the Alliance if we were prepared to enter into that vacuum in the middle east and central America which has been created by the failures of United States policy.
9.40 pm
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Richard Luce): We can all agree that this has been a sober and realistic debate, although it is a pity that the House is not exactly packed today, especially not the Opposition Benches. The Opposition pressed us constantly, and rightly, for a debate on foreign affairs, which are of great concern to the House and the country. I regret that more Opposition Members were not present.
The House listened with the greatest of respect to the remarkable speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym) and I shall return to some of his remarks later. I think that I am right in saying that I detected more bipartisanship today than I have heard for some time in foreign affairs debates, at least between the parties if not always within them. That is to be welcomed.
I am grateful for the remarks of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on Hong Kong. They were helpful—I was about to say that they were useful and constructive, but perhaps we have over-used those words. I assure him that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary will keep the House informed on Hong Kong as far as he can. The hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) has just returned from Hong Kong; I and my right hon. and learned Friend listened to his views with great interest. I assure him that we have taken his points carefully on board.
There were several speeches about the middle east. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East and many others spoke about the war between Iran and Iraq. I begin by addressing my remarks to that, and then I shall try to answer the main strands of the debate in other areas. We know that this war is in its fourth year and that, as the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) said, casualties have been devastating. The first and urgent requirement is to bring an end to hostilities. We continue, with other interested parties, to explore all the avenues for mediation. However, it is realistic to say that, as matters stand at present, there is little prospect of success. If ending the war is impossible in the foreseeable future—although all interested parties will continue to try to end hostilities—containment of the war is important, and here United Nations Security Council resolution 540 is relevant. It is crucial to try to avoid an escalation of the war.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) is not here, because he criticised our posture in the

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Iran-Iraq war and said that we should supply arms to one side—Iraq—and not to the other. That is an irresponsible attitude. Our posture in this war is one of neutrality and of saying that we shall not supply lethal arms to either side. That is a more constructive attitude, and if only other nations would follow our example and stop stoking up that war there might be a better chance of peace. I was very surprised at his attitude.
The right hon. Member for Leeds, East rightly said that stability in the middle east is of great importance to the Gulf states themselves, to all the countries that depend upon oil supplies and to the Western world, let alone Britain.
In the context of the dangers of escalation, the principal and immediate concern is the freedom of navigation in the Gulf. This is important to countries on both sides of the Atlantic. I returned yesterday from the United States, where I had discussions with Vice-President Bush, Mr. Weinberger and Mr. Shultz about the Gulf, the middle east generally, and other issues.
I was surprised at the remark of the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) that Mr. Shultz was quoted as being "not too worried" by Iran's position. The United States, Britain and all our allies, as well as the Gulf states, are extremely concerned about the dangers of an escalation of that war.
I took the opportunity this week to exchange views with the United States Administration on those issues. We shall keep in the closest touch with them, with other interested parties and with the Gulf states. We shall all seek to avoid escalation. Every effort must be made to seek a diplomatic solution to the problem. We take on board entirely the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about the Soviet Union. I assure him that we have his point about the need to keep in contact with them closely in mind.
It is right to refer briefly to the danger that the Gulf may be threatened by closure. We hope that will not occur. In the context of the need to secure the freedom of the international waterways of the Gulf, we shall work with all other countries who have interests in the area to protect our interests. We shall exhaust all diplomatic avenues before considering military or other action.
The right hon. Member for Leeds, East asked about insurance rates for shipping. Premiums have increased especially on ships going into the northern Gulf. That is a matter of commercial judgment. The best contribution that we and our allies and other interested parties can make is to seek to contain the war as best we can.
The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned oil supplies. He was right to say that in reality there would not be a dramatic shortfall in supplies of oil to the free world if the Gulf were closed. The danger lies in the irrational panic that might result. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that Britain and the United States have made contingency plans within the framework of the International Energy Agency. We can also use strategic stocks if necessary to mitigate the effect of a shortfall in oil supplies.
We have heard many very good and interesting speeches on the Arab-Israeli dispute, including the contributions of my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Mr. Walters), the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West and the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson). That dispute has been a running sore for decades and a solution is more urgent today than ever. As my right hon. and learned Friend said, our policies are
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based on twin principles: first, Israel's need for and right to security, against the background of United Nations resolution 242 and, secondly, our recognition of Palestinian aspirations and rights to self-determination. We welcome the moves made by King Hussein in his talks with Mr. Arafat, and the move made by President Mubarak of Egypt, but it is for the parties themselves to take the lead.
I cannot help recalling what was said by John Foster Dulles, for whom the House had great admiration. On one occasion, arriving in the middle east, he said that the middle east problem must be settled in a truly Christian manner. It is not for us to dictate to our friends in the middle east how they should sort out their problems. It is for them to take the lead.
Mr. Healey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Dulles was referring, of course, to the Maronite Christians?
Mr. Luce: I shall not be drawn into analysing what he was referring to. Our task is not to patronise or to interfere but to encourage positive initiatives. If such initiatives are made by interested parties, it is the job of Britain and the Western world to give every encouragement and support to them. In that context, we watch with great interest what King Hussein and other Arab leaders are doing and saying.
Equally, we attach great importance to a dialogue with Israel. I have visited that country. There is the forthcoming private visit of President Herzog, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary has already announced that he will be visiting Israel in the near future.
My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury referred to the West Bank. I reaffirm that we regard the settlements policy as not just illegal but unconducive to resolution of the problem in that part of the world.
My hon. Friends the Members for Leominister (Mr. Temple-Morris) and for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes) spoke of the Lebanon. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary has made it clear that we shall now withdraw our contribution to the multinational force. We are deeply concerned at the failure of the Lausanne conference. I saw Mr. Jumblatt this morning at his request and spoke of my great concern at the failure of that conference and the danger of further bloodshed. I urged him, as we urge all other leaders, to play his part in trying to achieve a proper ceasefire because it is the innocent people of the Lebanon who are suffering so badly in that terrible dispute.
Interesting speeches on southern Africa were made by my hon. Friends the Members for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle), Havant (Mr. Lloyd) and Ynys Môn (Mr. Best). I agree with all of them that there have been..some most encouraging political developments in southern Africa, an area in which the United Kingdom has a great interest and long-standing historical ties. We have certainly been encouraged by the very significant agreement between Mazambique and South Africa, which we believe could contribute to greater stability in that part of the world. The agreement involves non-interference in each other's internal affairs, respect for territorial borders and the nonuse of force. We certainly hope that that agreement will lead to further co-operation in other spheres, including the economic sphere, from which I am sure both countries would benefit. We also hope that such agreements may be extended to to other parts of the world.

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In Namibia, too, there have been some encouraging developments with South Africa's agreement to disengage and in Angola, with the joint monitoring commission, against the background of the meeting in February in Lusaka between the United States, South Africa and Angola. The momentum is being established. We strongly support it and will do everything in our power to encourage it in the hope that it will lead to a settlement in Namibia.
A number of speeches dealt with central Latin America. I am baffled by the degree of anti-American prejudice on the part of the Opposition. I am not a psychologist and I find it difficult to understand why they are so unbalanced. They indulge in constant criticism of the United States without any reference to outside intervention by Cuba and the Soviet Union in that part of the world. I find that quite extraordinary. The problems of central Latin America are long-standing and deep-rooted. Clearly our aim and that of any Government such as that of the United States is to support and encourage peace, democracy and prosperity, and a recent speech by President Reagan strongly supported those objectives. We support the Contadora initiative, which is designed to find a peaceful solution of the problem.
Mr. Anderson rose——
Mr. Luce: I have only five minutes left and I want to deal with arms control.
I find it extraordinary that hon. Members are opposed to the idea of the British Government sending two observers to the elections which are to take place next Sunday. Surely, if we are to encourage democracy, the least we should do is to arm ourselves with the information as to whether those elections are legitimate and fair. That is all we are seeking to do, and that is surely constructive. I find it difficult to understand what hon. Gentlemen object to in this. Indeed, for the same reasons, we welcome the fact that elections are to take place in November in Nicaragua. If we get an invitation to send observers there, obviously we shall be very glad to consider that. Surely this is the most effective way to tackle that problem.
I come to the question of East-West relations and arms control. There were very interesting speeches by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East, the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Steel), my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Ryder) and my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone). It seems to me—and I am sure that this is right—that the mood of the House is that our priority should be to do our utmost to get the dialogue going between East and West. Profound concern has been shown throughout this debate that this should happen. That is why I am sure that the House has welcomed the fact that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is going to Moscow. I can, of course, assure my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Norfolk that we shall speak our minds as clearly as we can—that will be the value of our
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discussions—on a wide range of issues, including the points about human rights which he raised. It is surely better that we understand that, however different our systems are and however much mistrust there may be, we live on the same planet and must talk to each other.
I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East that we have to strike a balance between our security and defence interests and the very great importance of arms control and disarmament. We must say to the Soviet Union that it is in its interest as well as ours that it should come back to the negotiating table in Geneva and talk sensibily about the issues that concern its security as much as ours.
We welcome the fact that the MBFR talks in Vienna, have now been resumed and that the conference on disarmament in Europe is making some progress. We hope that there will be progress in the field of chemical weapons, where we have put forward our own proposals for challenge inspection and verification. I believe that there is a tide of international opinion running strongly in favour of an agreement banning the manufacture, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. We must catch that tide, and the British Government propose to take a strong line. We welcome very much the fact that the Soviet Union has responded positively to our proposals and that the United States is shortly to table a draft treaty.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set the scene in terms of our broad foreign policy. It was Dean Acheson who, in the early 1960s, said
"Britain has lost an empire and not yet found a role."
For some 20 years, throughout the 1960s and 1970s, we suffered from introspection, economic decline and a lack of self-confidence. Now, domestically, we are far more competitive economically. Thanks largely to the contributions of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, we are more self-confident people. Abroad we have a role to play. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is one of the longest serving leaders in the Western world. It is in our own interest to play a positive role. We are no longer an imperial power, but there is a remarkable fund of good will towards Great Britain in many corners of the world. Much of that is inherited, and much is derived from our existing efforts.
We have a role to play in the world. We can hold our heads high in the world. It is in our self-interest to work closely with out allies, including the United States, to move positively in the East-West dialogue and with our friends in the Commonwealth.
It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without question put.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That, at this day's sitting, the second Motion in the name of the Prime Minister for the Adjournment of the House, may be proceeded with, though opposed, until One o'clock or for three hours after being entered upon, whichever is the later.—[Mr. Garel-Jones.]

Common Agricultural Policy Prices
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Garel-Jones.]
Relevant documents: European Community Documents Nos. 4326/84 and Agenda Nos. 1, 2, and 3, Commission Proposals on the fixing of prices for certain agricultural products: 4266/84, Report on the agricultural markets 1983: and unnumbered paper on the import of maize by-products.
Mr. Speaker: Before we begin the debate, I must inform the House that no fewer than 18 hon. Members have indicated their wish to take part in the debate. It is a three-hour debate, and I hope that hon. Members will keep their contributions relatively brief, so that all may be called.
10.1 pm
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Michael Jopling): I welcome this opportunity for a debate on the Commission's proposals for 1984–85 common agricultural policy prices. We last had a full debate on the CAP on 1 December. We were then primarily concerned with the reform proposals put forward by the Commission following the Stuggart summit in June last year. They form the basis for many of the proposals now before us.
The financial pressures on the CAP today are every bit as great as when we discussed the last. The need to rectify the wrong decisions taken in the past by the Agriculture Council is as great as ever. It is of small consolation to us that my predecessors as Ministers consistently argued at the time for restrictive price policies.
In the Agriculture Council we have already made substantial progress on a package covering both the 1984–85 CAP prices and the CAP reforms. I believe that there will be a wish to continue the momentum of that at the next meeting in Brussels on 26–27 March. I hope to secure overall agreement then on a package of that kind.
I understand that before the Council meeting the Commission will, as is usual, be putting forward amendments to its proposals to reflect the degree of agreement that has been reached.
In the discussions in Brussels, I have consistently argued that the CAP must live within its means and that the measures adopted must not discriminate against the United Kingdom. In particular, the package must bear evenly on producers of both temperate and Mediterranean products. The package that I expect we shall be discussing on Monday goes some way to meet my criteria, but there are still certain areas where I shall be seeking further improvements, and I shall come to those later.
It would not be appropriate for us to spend too much time tonight analysing the recent meeting of the European Council. But I would like to comment on suggestions from the National Farmers Union that the failure earlier in the week to agree on restructuring of the EC budget has left British agriculture deeply vulnerable. I believe that this is misconceived. There has never been any formal suggestion that more money could be made available for the common agricultural policy in 1984 than has already been provided for. Even if it had been agreed at the summit this week that the 1 per cent. VAT ceiling was to be raised, it has always been recognised that this could not take effect before 1985 at the earliest.
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While the CAP is crucially important for agriculture, agriculture is affected, like other industries, by the general economic climate. The measures recently announced in my right hon. Friend's Budget will have had beneficial effects on the finances of the agriculture industry. First, the abolition of the investment income surcharge and the changes to capital transfer tax will be particularly welcome in helping to make lettings of farmland an attractive option. The president of the Country Landowners' Association has said:
"The abolition of the surcharge coupled with the reduction in the top rate of Capital Transfer Tax will provide just the fillip to new letting that will be needed when the Agricultural Holdings Bill reaches the Statute Book".
Farmers will welcome the abolition of the national insurance surcharge, which is estimated to save the agricultural industry £16 million in a full year. Other recent changes in our economic climate include the reduction in interest rates. The latest reduction of 0·5 per cent. is worth about £20 million to the industry in a full year. The steady downward trend of interest rates has been of great cash advantage to farmers in recent years.
The House knows that I take a personal pride in the recent extension of the less favoured areas to include 1·2 million hectares of marginal land. Taken with the statement that I have already made about the Government's intentions concerning grants and compensatory allowances in those areas, that will benefit no fewer than 28,000 farmers by between £8 million and £12 million a year. Those are all important and favourable points for agriculture.
We are concerned tonight with problems of the CAP. I turn to specific commodities. It is appropriate to start with cereals. Cereals represent an important basic raw material as part of our own agricultural production, and cereals feed is a large component in the costs of most livestock enterprises. I have constantly drawn attention to the major weakness of the CAP, which is the unsatisfactory balance between grain and livestock production. Our 1983–84 annual review of agriculture, published some weeks ago, shows the effect of this imbalance on farm incomes. Over the past few years, incomes in the intensive livestock sector have dropped significantly in real terms, while there has been a considerable increase in income on cereal and other arable farms.
It is part of the Government's policy to seek to redress the imbalance. We have been pressing for a significant reduction in cereal prices, both to reduce the costs of this sector and as the best means of bringing about the improvement of the livestock-arable imbalance.
It is now envisaged that for most cereals a small price reduction should be made in the year 1984–85 rather than the price freeze originally proposed by the Commission. Slightly bigger price decreases are now envisaged for oilseeds than for cereals, and this is welcome, given the very substantial costs of the oilseeds regimes. A price freeze is now envisaged for sugar. One must remember that a price freeze represents a significant reduction in real terms, especially in countries such as France and Italy with far higher inflation rates than our own. It is at times like this that farmers get real advantage from living in one of Europe's low inflation states, as our farmers do.
I come now to the livestock sector, and especially to milk—the most important sector—as it represents 30 per cent. of the cost of the CAP. I began by saying how

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conscious I was of the difficult problems that face our milk producers today, but like other Community milk producers they are forced to pay the price for the Community's folly in recent years, persisted in in the face of constant advice in that Council by my predecessor as Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
I reported to the House on 14 March that substantial progress has been made towards agreeing that a quotasuper-levy system should operate for the 1984–85 marketing year. The House will recall that since last July we have said that much the best way of dealing with the current milk production surplus, and the massive intervention stocks of 1·75 million tonnes in the Community, is by price. But as that has proved to be unnegotiable, as I warned the House last year, it was absolutely vital, given the limited market outlets and the inexorable rise of production in recent years, that we went to a super levy system.
Without drastic action, the financial prospects for the Community were truly horrendous. The imposition of the scheme will save the Community more than 1 billion ecu—more than £600 million—of expenditure in a full year, and will prevent any increase in the surplus over the five years of the scheme. At the same time we have managed to avoid the highly discriminatory controls in the Commission's original proposals for the so-called intensive levy, which would have been so damaging to United Kingdom farmers.
Before dealing with the detail of the super-levy, I should like to comment on the suggestions regarding the possibility of securing a three-year transitional period. We have secured one intermediate step of one year so as to prevent the industry from having to face up to the full rigour of the basic quantity immediately. We did that at the request of the NFU, which spoke to us about not moving into the full rigours of the scheme at once.
But we must not lose sight of the magnitude and urgency of the problems of the milk sector, where each extra 1 million tonnes on the quota costs at least 275 million ecu—more than £160 million. We must recognise that a longer transitional period, or even a transition down to a larger total quota, would have had enormous financial implications for the Community at a time when the cash simply is not there.
The main issue on the super-levy still to be decided is the Irish claim for exemption. Although the levy is necessary, its imposition will hit many of our producers. In those circumstances, we could not accept the permanent exclusion of any member state from the system. That factor is especially important to us, given our proximity to Ireland and the potential effects on our market for milk products of expanding Irish production if our own were to be held back.
We must admit that dairy production is more important for Ireland than for any other member state. Milk production represents 3·5 per cent. of GDP in the Republic, and nowhere else does it exceed 1·5 per cent. of GDP. Member states in the Community seem to be disposed—that is one of the impressions one gained earlier this week from the Council—to make some special provision for Ireland in recognition of that fact. Our position is that all member states must be brought
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firmly within the system and that the claims of Northern Ireland must be given equal consideration with those of the Republic.
Many other details on the quota will need to be worked out.
Mr. Geraint Howells: I am sure that the Minister is well aware that during the past 10 years successive Ministers of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have said from the Dispatch Box to dairy producers in Britain, "Produce more." The dairy producers have accepted that challenge gracefully. They produce 90 per cent. of our requirements. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the dairy producers, through the National Farmers Union, are making a reasonable request for three years to adjust their farming methods so that they can survive within the Community?
Mr. Jopling: The hon. Gentleman should recall the basic figures—in 1982, we were producing 131 per cent. of our solids not fat requirements and 91 per cent. of our butter-fat requirements. We are close to becoming self-sufficient in dairy products. I have already explained why it has been impossible to arrive at a three-year transitional period. Many farmers have said to me that it is better to get through the difficult period faster than to prolong it for too long.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: If my right hon. Friend is making a case for justice for the British dairy farmers, how is it—my right hon. Friend has said that this year we shall almost be self-sufficient—that the French farmers, who are over-producing, will take a cut in production of about 2·5 per cent.? The British farmers are expected to take a cut at least three times that of the French, more than the Dutch and considerably more than our major competitor, which, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, is the Republic of Ireland.
Mr. Jopling: My hon. Friend does not have those facts right. Under the basis we have agreed, France will be expected to take a lower cut than Britain. If—I ask the House to consider this carefully—we had been intent on forcing a larger cut on France, our share of the market would have remained virtually constant. The two options would have meant basing the split either on 1981 or 1983. It would not have made much difference to us one way or the other, but it would have made a great difference to France. If we had sought to clobber France in that way, which would not have helped us, I would not have been able to negotiate the abolition of all the exemptions that the French were so keen on, namely, the intensive levy, the French demand to exempt all small farmers, to which I shall come, and the French desire to exempt from the super-levy sales of milk direct to customers, and not through the dairy. These were major negotiating pluses that we extracted from the negotiation which we could not have done if we had made the French reduction greater, at no advantage to ourselves. I must say to my hon. Friend that I was concentrating more on getting the best deal for Britain than on clobbering the French. That seemed to me of secondary consideration compared with getting the best deal for the United Kingdom.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith: I think that all hon. Members are appreciative of the fight that my right hon. Friend has made.

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May I take my right hon. Friend back a little, because I suspect that Conservative Members may have misheard what he said about the attitude to Ireland? Could he explain again the attitude, not only of this country, but of the rest of the EEC to the Irish position?
Mr. Jopling: I hesitate to repeat what I thought I had explained fairly carefully. I said that it had to be admitted—and this is a fact—that milk is a more important part of the gross domestic product of Ireland than in the case of any other state. It is more than twice as important to Ireland as it is to any other state. I made clear, and I repeat, our position that all member states must be brought firmly within the system of the super-levy, and that the claims of Northern Ireland must be given consideration equal to the claims of the Republic.
I must now get on, because many other details of the quota still need to be worked out. We are having urgent discussions with all those interested in the milk sector to work out the best solution to these difficult problems.
One point on which I should like to comment again is the base year. As I told the House on 14 March, although the allocation of the total Community quota among member states is to be on the 1981 basis, the national quotas which derive from that can be split among producers on the basis of their 1983 production. A 1983 base year for producers has the advantage that it reflects closely current patterns of production, and does not ignore the natural evolution in milk production patterns that have taken place since 1981. It is, therefore open to us to choose the best and fairest base for arriving at individual quotas, which we shall need to do in any event; and we are, as I said earlier, discussing this with all the interests concerned.
The number of cases of hardship would be considerably lower if we used a 1983 base—which we can still use, although we shall still have to examine carefully the position of those with real problems. There has been some misunderstanding about that, but this factor meets our main objection to the Commission's original proposal to use the 1981 base.
Mr. Robert Hughes: I am following the right hon. Gentleman closely, because he is answering a substantial point. Will he go further in his explanation? Is he saying that the quotas for individual producers can be based on 1983 production figures when the gross quota for Britain must be based on 1981 figures? How does he square the two and come to the same total?
Mr. Jopling: As I tried to explain, that does not make much difference. It makes a minute difference to the United Kingdom whether one arrives at our national share by using 1981 or 1983 production patterns. That is why I said what I did a few moments ago to my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton).
A further improvement of the system which we have succeeded in negotiating is the coverage by the super levy of direct sales of milk and milk products off farms, as well as milk delivered to dairies. That is vital to ensure that the growth of non-dairy sales does not undermine the system and has important implications for the degree of cutback in total production that individual member states will sustain. Countries such as Italy, Belgium and France, which have a relatively high proportion of direct sales, would have escaped with less than their fair share of the
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restrictions if only deliveries to dairies had been covered. The United Kingdom, with a much lower percentage of direct sales, would have been unfairly penalised.
Hon. Members may recall that some countries, particularly France, sought total exemption from the super levy for their small farmers. I am glad to say that we managed to kill that proposal which, again, would have discriminated severely against our own farmers.
Mr. David Penhaligon: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Jopling: I have given way a lot and I have taken far too long already.
Mr. Penhaligon: How accurate are the European records vis-a-vis sales straight from the farm?
Mr. Jopling: I think that they must be made accurate because of the weapon that the Commission is using for disallowance. We have had some problems and threats about that. It is a real weapon used by the Commission to impose proper control and to ensure that the levies are properly paid.
The outline agreement on the super levy allows the option of applying quotas at dairy or individual producer levels. The choice is not simply between a more lax and a more stringent system. There are advantages and disadvantages on both sides. For instance, the farm quota involves a 75 per cent. levy and the dairy quota a 100 per cent. levy. The dairy levy quota might allow extra freedom to take up the slack between producers delivering to the same dairies so that no part of the quota is wasted. Much will depend on the detailed rules which the Commission has only just produced.
The Government will need to consider all factors carefully before taking any decision about the type of system that we wish to apply in the United Kingdom. We are talking to all the major interested bodies to decide the best way forward.
The NFU argues that there must be no increase in the co-responsibility levies. Our general views on that are well known and do not differ greatly from those of the NFU. As a long term measure that is clearly inferior to straight price cuts and the enforcement of realistic production levels. The one percentage point increase that we are prepared to accept for one year only is for 1984–85 and is designed to meet the budgetary costs of the extra l million tonne quota for this year. A transitional measure of this kind was asked for explicitly by the NFU. We should remember that.
Turning to other livestock products, a 1 per cent. price decrease is now envisaged for beef compared with the increase of 1·5 per cent. originally proposed by the Commission. It is clear that there is no market within the Community for any extra production at this time. The price of the beef regime has been mounting steadily, the cost has more than doubled over the last five years and over 400,000 tonnes are now in intervention storage.
One unsatisfactory feature is that no provision has yet been made in the Commission's proposals for the continuation of the beef variable premium. I am convinced of the benefits of the premium for both producers and consumers. I believe that the system saves the Community money, although the Commission denies this. The House should know that I shall continue to press our case

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resolutely at the Council next week. We are alone in this request, but, in spite of that, I intend to persist with this case.
A 1 per cent. reduction is also envisaged for sheepmeat rather than the increase previously proposed by the Commission. Next week I shall be seeking further amendments to the proposals for changing the methods of calculating the ewe premium which, as currently drafted, could bear unfairly on our own producers.
Finally, I turn to the esoteric subject of monetary compensatory amounts. It is envisaged that fixed positive MCAs should be eliminated over a three-year period while the creation of new fixed positive MCAs would be avoided by basing prices on the strongest currency for a three year period. As now envisaged, this scheme fully protects the position of floating currencies and we would be under no obligation to revalue the green pound. We have, therefore, virtually achieved one of our principle objectives in this year's price fixing. The House will remember that the achievement of this objective satisfies the NFU's principal concern about the Commission's original price proposals for this year. I think that I am entitled to claim considerable credit for this step which strangely has not been given outside the House. As proposed, United Kingdom producers would have had to face a 4 per cent. price cut which was worth £260 million a year to the farming industry, and we have been able to kill it.
My main reservation about the new system is that it could prove costly in budgetary terms and inflationary also because of the devaluation of the newly created MCAs that would arise, especially at subsequent realignments of the European monetary system. I shall be seeking assurances on this aspect at next week's meeting.
These are complicated and important matters. In summary, we are now within striking distance of putting a halt to the runaway increases in common agricultural policy expenditure in recent years. If we manage to do so, we shall have taken a large step towards securing a more rational CAP. In the process, as is inevitable although I regret it, our producers will face very difficult times. At this stage I can do no better than refer to what my hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Sir P. Mills) said last week about these measures; he acknowledged that it has to be done.
I am sure that the drive and resilience that the industry has shown in the past will continue to be demonstrated in the future. I am confident that British agriculture, such a vital component of our national life, will continue to develop successfully in the new environment once this difficult period is behind us.
It will be my task and the Government's task to seek to ease the difficulties, as best we can, within the limited scope available in doing what has to be done.
10.35 pm
Mr. Robert Hughes: I listened with care to the Minister and, as I go through my speech, I shall comment on some of the points that he made. First, however, I wish to make it clear that my hon. Friends and I object to this debate taking place at this time of night and to its being so short, only three hours. Given the importance of agriculture in all its aspects, the matter should be properly debated.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his complaint would carry more weight if he were sustained by the weight of numbers on the Labour Benches?
Mr. Hughes: Precisely the reverse is the case. There is no escaping the fact that the Minister has brought the debate forward at this hour because he knows that he can—[Interruption.]—seek to evade criticism.
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Hughes: If Conservative Members continue to barrack they will only prolong my speech and leave less time for them to speak.
What is the point of having a meeting of the Council of Agriculture Ministers next week? The Minister has been told by the Prime Minister more or less what to do. Will there be any real negotiations? I cannot see how there will be a settlement of the dairy package—I will come to that in more detail later—given the enormous gap between the demands of the Irish for a 40 per cent. increase in production over five years and the proposition, made in the package, for a reduction of 13·66 per cent.
The Irish walked out of the EEC summit this week on the basis of being unable to agree on the milk issue. I cannot believe that, having made that dramatic move—which, we understand, had a provocative effect on the final breakdown of the summit—less than seven days later they will return and agree to what is on the table concerning their reduction. If, when the package finally emerges, it is relatively unscathed and unaltered and is virtually as it was prior to the summit, that will represent a lamentable failure on the part of the Minister.
I regarded the right hon. Gentleman's written answer in Hansard of 19 March at column 355 as a gross discourtesy to the House, not because it was made in written form—I understand the reasons for that—but, frankly, because it failed to tell us what was in the package as set before the summit and reported on by the President to the European Council.
Before coming to specific points I will explain why, in our view, the Minister has failed. It is interesting to note over a period of time how the Government's language has changed on this issue, even in recent months. At one stage Ministers were speaking of a fundamental reform of the CAP. That became controlling the budget cost of the CAP by dealing with among other things, surplus production.
Interwoven in the various remarks was the encouragement given to United Kingdom farmers by the Minister's insistence that he would protect british interests. On all those counts the right hon. Gentleman has failed lamentably because the Government have regarded the deficiences of the CAP, and sought to remedy them, as a budgetary problem requiring budgetary solutions. That is why there are no fundamental reforms in the Ministers mind.
Our objections to the CAP have much in common with the objections of others in that we are opposed to the growing level of surpluses, to increasing the cost of the CAP budget and to the proportion of the total community budget which the CAP absorbs. Our objection to the common agricultural policy has been that it produces food at a price that is too expensive for the consumer.
We have one other major objection to the CAP which, if it became a priority reform, would assist greatly in resolving the difficulties—dificulties that will increase

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as the years go by. The disparity of income between rich and poor farmers in the different regions of the European Economic Community has become greater rather than smaller. The gap has been widening all the time, and the Commission documents make it perfectly clear that the CAP has failed in its objective of trying to reduce the disparity.
It is this problem which should have priority in discussion. If we were to begin seriously to discuss this we might begin to try to understand such disparities, and if we sought to close the gap it would pay rich dividends in our relationships in the EEC. If we simply go ahead on the basis that we are only out to reduce prices, to reduce the budget, this is one of the reasons why countries within the EEC are unwilling to discuss the costs with us in the way that we would expect.
The Minister has said that he had settled the levels of dairy production for the next five years. He has, to some extent, contained the size of the surplus, but the truth of the matter is that, by the agreement that he has apparently reached, and about which I shall have more to say later, he has institutionalised surplus production of dairy products within the EEC. We know that the consumption of dairy products is declining. In a sense, it is like the way in which the Government have dealt with the problem of people who exceed the speed limits on motorways. The Government's answer is to increase the speed limits. It is precisely what the Minister is doing here. He is saying that there are problems with surpluses but, in order to deal with them, we will raise the production levels and institutionalise them.
During the course of the day I have had meetings with many representatives of the National Farmers Union from several areas. They tell me a totally different story from the one that the Minister has sought to present at the Dispatch Box. He gave the impression that, relatively speaking, all was sweetness and light and that dairy farmers were reasonably happy.
Mr. Albert McQuarrie: He never did.
Mr. Robert Hughes: That was the impression that he gave, and there is no point in denying it.
The NFU representatives have, without exception, told me that this agreement will have devastating effects on them, and especially on small producers. They all accept—and have reached this conclusion over a period of time but, I am sure, with some reluctance—that production cannot continue to expand. They all accept the need for some limitation. They are, however, unanimous in saying that the package has been arrived at, and must be implemented, far too quickly and that the 1981 production levels are the wrong ones on which to operate.
The Minister has sought to say that there are means, within the choosing of the datum line, of altering that situation in relation to the quotas, but I am advised that the result of his proposals—that is, the price freeze and the increase in the co-responsibility levy, and taking into account the effects of inflation—will, in terms of gross income to the farmer, mean a loss of about £100 per cow per annum.
The reduction in gross income can, of course, be offset by reducing costs. If there were a major reduction in the price of cereals it could be discounted at the other end, except that there has not been a major reduction in the
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price of cereals and, if the dairy production were mainly on grassland, such a reduction would not make a great deal of difference. The effect of the reduction on dairying is already being felt, even before the agreement is finally announced. I am advised that in Carmarthen and in Aberdeen in the past week the market price of a heifer has fallen by as much as £100. That is a lot of money. We believe that the same thing is happening in other places too. Farmers have told me that they are extremely worried by the size of their bank loans and overdrafts; it is a matter of constant concern to them. They have asked me to make a special plea to the Minister to discuss with the banks their concerns so that the banks do not make a quick call for early repayment. I think that he will have to give us an undertaking that he will do that.
Mr. Robert Jackson: Will the hon. Gentleman accept that he cannot have it both ways? He cannot call for fundamental reforms of the CAP and then complain that the reforms which are being made, which I would describe as fundamental, are beginning seriously to bite.
Mr. Hughes: Fundamental reform of the CAP does not mean playing about with the price mechanism. If I had more time I would go into the ways in which we could reform the policy. The major fault of the CAP is that it does not and cannot take care of the problems of large producers and small producers at the same time. Every time a change is made to the price mechanism without trying to take account of the incomes of small producers, the problems of small producers become even worse. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not saying that he does not want the Government to do what they can to ensure that bankers do not foreclose in some instances because of their concern about retrieving their money.
What is the status of the dairy agreement which the Minister described in his statement of 14 March? He reported that he was glad to tell the House that a substantial measure of agreement had been reached. He talked earlier this evening about the "agreement which has been reached". Is the package, to all intents and purposes sealed, signed and delivered? Is it the position that it cannot be altered fundamentally? If that is so, he will have to bear the consequences. As the full effects of the dairy proposals are examined and discussed within the dairy industry, I think that the Minister will find that the sector is grossly dissatisfied with them. The consequence of the way in which he has dealt with the package in terms of budget and price considerations is that next year he will have even greater difficulty satisfying the industry. As each year passes, he will find it more and more difficult to arrive at a package that satisfies it.
As the right hon. Gentleman said, there are three basic proposals for beef. First, there is a 1 per cent. reduction in price support. Secondly, there is strong pressure for the termination of the United Kingdom variable premium scheme. Thirdly, there is the retention of the suckler cow premium at existing rates of payment. It is the possible termination of the variable premium scheme which causes us the greatest concern. I share the Minister's view that the premium, which was negotiated by Fred Peart in 1974, has been of great benefit to consumers and producers alike. It helps to increase beef consumption. If the Minister chooses to go further down that road in respect of other commodities, there might be a greater measure of agreement.

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According to some estimates, the ending of the premium will mean a rise in beef prices of as much as 9p a pound. There is no doubt that the scheme is extremely valuable. There is no doubt also that it is less expensive than the straightforward intervention scheme. The Minister said in his written answer on 19 March:
"As well as a reserve on the outcome as a whole, I maintained specific reserves on beef and sheep."—[Official Report, 19 March 1984; Vol. 56, c. 355.]
I hope that the Minister will make it clear beyond a peradventure that it is not only a reserve that he has in mind. He said that he will strongly resist the removal of the variable beef premium, but how far will his resistance go? Will he make it clear that the maintenance of the premium is a matter of vital national interest and that he will use his veto to preserve the status quo? Nothing else will do. He must tell us that he regards the issue as being of such importance that he will use the veto.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: The hon. Gentleman suggests that the British Government should use their veto over the variable beef premium. Will he also ask the Government to use their veto if there is a proposal to grant anything like what the Irish Government have requested in respect of dairy produce?
Mr. Hughes: The position there is not that the British Government would use their veto, but that the Irish would use theirs, so I cannot do what the hon. Gentleman asks.
Mr. Jackson rose——
Mr. Hughes: I have already taken up some time, and I wish to be fair to those hon. Members who wish to speak.
How will decisions be reached on Monday and Tuesday? There are strong rumours and much speculation that the orders went out from the summit that agreement must be reached on Monday and Tuesday on the basis of majority voting. If that is true, we shall lose all along the line. I hope that the Minister will give us a specific assurance that, in the national interest, he will not abandon the veto.
I should have liked to discuss many detailed points this evening, but time is marching on. If I have missed anything, no doubt my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mr. Hughes) will pick them up.
However, I must refer briefly to the pig industry, which is important to Scotland and to many other areas. My friends in the National Farmers Union of Scotland have impressed on me the severe difficulties faced by the pig industry, not just in Scotland, but throughout the United Kingdom. They believe that the crisis has been caused by the inadequacy of the pigmeat regime. They have suggested several ways of resolving the crisis—[Interruption.] I do not know whether to be pleased or sorry that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) has crossed the Floor of the House to join us.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: It is in the national interest.
Mr. Hughes: One way in which the crisis can be resolved is by a derogation on changes in MCAs, which the French have had for some time, and which we need. The quickest and easiest way to inject cash into the pig industry would be to provide producers with some money to help with the programme of eradication of Aujeszky's disease. It has cost them about £16 million to £18 million, whereas the Ministry estimated that it would cost only £6
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million. That estimate was based on a return of 70 per cent. of slaughter values, but because of arguments about weaners the Government's expectation of what might be derived from slaughter has not been met. Without asking for EC approval, and without bending the rules, the Government could quickly inject money directly into the pig industry, which would be of immense benefit to it.
The Minister said that several countries have put reserves in the Budget, as has Britain. We must operate on the basis that, by and large, the budget will be about the same as expected, although there might be some minor changes here and there. The Minister said that he wishes to contain costs. It has been suggested that the overall package will be about £2 billion. Those who are keen on the EC speak about sums of £2 billion as though they are a mere bagatelle.
The truth is that that money is not available. We must therefore ask the Minister how the budgetary cost of the CAP is to be paid for. It cannot and must not come from any other EEC budget. There would be outrage if the social fund, for example, were robbed to pay for this. It also cannot and must not come from a tax on oils and fats. I hope that the House is unanimous in saying that we shall not tolerate such a tax, because we thoroughly disapprove of it in principle. In the short term, at least, the money also cannot come from an increase in own resources. As the Minister said, even if agreement had been reached the increase could not have come into operation in time to provide more money for the CAP budget this year.
The next question is whether the additional costs will have to be met from national budgets, each country finding its own share. If so, that is a halting step towards repatriation of farm support from EEC funding to direct national funding. It would not, however, be a repatriation of decision making, which many people would like, so as to bring flexibility into the CAP package. If we are to move away from the system of arguing out one package a year within the EEC to a more flexible system with more local decision making, that must be planned for and carried out properly. It cannot be implemented in a piecemeal fashion.
I believe that the Minister knows in his heart of hearts that the package of proposals, to the extent that he has given us details of them, do not carry the House or the country. He cannot claim that he has the approval of the House for the proposals. There is widespread disappointment at his failure. He has failed because of his narrow attitude. He has arrived at the wrong solutions because he has addressed himself to the wrong questions.
10.57 pm
Mr. Colin Shepherd: I am grateful for the opportunity to intervene so early in the debate. I am disappointed but not surprised at the negative and derogatory attitude taken by the Opposition spokesman on this difficult issue, although I appreciate that he must not disappoint his massed cohorts of three supporters who have been interested enough to turn up. To give them their due, they are the three most regular Opposition contributors to these debates, but it is disappointing to note that there are so few of them present even though it is late on a Thursday evening.
Listening to the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) I wondered where he had been between 1974 and 1979 as he suggested that the Conservatives had made food more expensive than the consumer could

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afford. During the period of the Labour Government the price of food increased by at least as much as the rate of inflation, if not more. If the hon. Gentleman compares the increase in the food price index with that of the retail price index he will discover that in the past few years the former has been about half of the latter. He must therefore recognise that food is cheaper under the Conservative Government in real terms according to people's ability to pay.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Will the hon. Gentleman repeat that? Is he saying that food is cheaper now under the Conservatives than it was under the Labour Government?
Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Gentleman clearly has no idea what inflation is. He cannot possibly know what it is, because his party presided over 100 per cent. inflation when in office. In real terms, relative to people's ability to pay, food is cheaper now than it was in 1979. If he goes away and thinks about it and learns about inflation he will find that out.
The farming industry has not been receiving a good press recently. Indeed, it has received a far worse press than it deserves. It has made a remarkable contribution to the economy of this country and to the recovery of this country. It has responded well to the stresses and strains that have been put on it. It has invested well and increased its expertise well. But it is sometimes depicted as a sector of our industry which is money-hungry, absorbing all the resources that we can pour into it.
To those who sometimes put forward the case that we should have stayed on a deficiency payment system, I would say that deficiency payments are made in straightline proportion to output. Since output has been going up since 1972 and the support levels have been staying the same, more or less, in real terms, the actual support related to output has been decreasing. So the farming industry has returned well the taxpayers' investment in it over the last four years, and over the last 10 years since entering the Community we have had continuity of supply. In fact, the country has not been served all that badly by the common agricultural policy. It is in that context that we must look at the problems we have today—because it is true that we have problems.
My right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Minister of State were dealt, through no fault of their predecessors but by virtue of the changing circumstances, which came about very quickly, a very difficult hand of cards, but through these very difficult negotiations they have produced a remarkable number of tricks.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Dirty tricks.
Mr. Shepherd: Nobody can expect to pick up a blind hand and secure all of the tricks, which is what the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North is seeking. It is his prerogative to ask for that, of course, but we have to recognise and give credit for what has been achieved. In early February, my right hon. Friend gave an assurance to the House that the agricultural industry would not be disadvantaged by any realignment of the green currencies, and that is what he is delivering. That is good.
I have one question on that. If we have developed the concept of the green European currency unit, that is going to require a substantial amount of money, because the baseline has been moved up. I am wondering what that is costed out at and where that will come from, because if
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my calculations are correct it is a quite substantial sum of money to be found from the Budget. I would welcome some indication of how sanguine my right hon. Friend is about being able to achieve this as part of the package. Or will another direction have to be found which does not disadvantage the United Kingdom producer in terms of his institutional prices?
Turning to the milk question, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the way he has fended off the intensive levy, dealt with the proper inclusion of direct sales, made quite certain that the small producer cannot be exempted and recognised the significance of 1983, a base year, as a potential basis for the calculation of quota in exceptional circumstances. These are very important achievements and I believe that, on reflection, the dairy industry and the milk sector in this country will recognise them for what they are.
It is difficult for the milk sector at this particular time to take on board this change. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North gave the same figure as I give, more or less—a loss of income of £100 per cow—but it is not sufficient to say that. We have to see what the loss of net income is going to be. That is a figure that has not yet emerged, but it is not so dramatic as the £100 per cow. In fact, for an agricultural college in my constituency which runs a herd of 110 cattle the loss of income from milk is going to be about £10,000, together with an additional payment of £1,000 of co-responsibility levy. It will put on its thinking cap on how to readjust its business to reduce the input and protect the margin. That challenge will lie in front of the dairy industry.
It has worried me for some time that the industry has become too highly geared. The requirement is to achieve a drop in gearing without necessarily detracting from profitability. We have identified the challenge, and. I have full confidence that the dairy industry will know how to rise to it.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend dealt with the question of Irish milk. I have been perturbed, because the Irish have the habit of sending their milk to us, if they can. I shall watch carefully, together with the dairy industry, to see how that problem is dealt with.
At the meeting between Herefordshire farmers and myself this afternoon, we discussed the knock-on effects of the changes in the dairy industry. I wonder what work has been done on the financial consequences of that. If we take an estimated 150,000 cows out of production, a logical extension is that less feed will be required from the cereal sector, which means more cereals left to be disposed of elsewhere. Fewer beef calves are coming on to the market because they are a byproduct of the industry. That will mean a loss of income to the dairy sector also. In turn, the beef position is distorted.
I am wearing the tie of the Hereford Herdbook Society—it shows a lovely white-faced beast that is known from one end of the world to the other as being a base unit of beef production. My part of the world has a deep interest in the future of beef. I hope that my right hon. Friend can take with him to the negotiating table next week the unanimous feeling of the House that the variable premium scheme should continue. It is logical and sensible and does not put beef into cold store. It puts beef on to people's plates, and they eat it. That cannot be bad; it must be logical. [Interruption.] I am talking about the variable premium scheme as it currently operates. It is a partial deficiency payment scheme, but it serves the sector well.

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It is important for underpinning the sector and is important for Herefordshire and other beef rearing sectors. We must recognise that, even with the variable premium at its maximum value, the commodity in the markets is not even approaching its target price. Further to undermine that by the loss of the variable premium would not be helpful in any way.
My right hon. Friend has entered a reserve in the sheepmeat sector. The Community is only 74 per cent. self-sufficient in sheepmeat. There is scope for those dislodged from dairy and beef to turn to sheep to redress their incomes. I hope that it will be made clear to the Council of Agriculture Ministers that the variable premium scheme for sheep is good for the industry and the Community. It forms an escape valve for the United Kingdom agriculture industry to take the opportunity to sort itself out and find a mechanism for getting out of the arable sector and into the livestock sector through sheep.
Mr. Robert Hughes: The hon. Gentleman and I agree about the variable beef premium. Will he join me in insisting that we obtain a clear assurance from the Minister that he will use his veto to preserve it?
Mr. Shepherd: I expressed the sentiment that I hoped that my right hon. Friend would appreciate that he had the full support of the entire House and the entire industry. That should be enough to give power to his elbow. He is the one who has to do the negotiating, but it is up to us to make him aware of what we feel.
My right hon. Friend did not refer to this point, but I understand that, as a result of the negotiations, the bread wheat making premium has been halved for intervention. I should like the rest of it to go as well. It has been causing stress in the cereal sector and damaging the poultry interest—another important sector which is not often sung about. I hope that in the second part of the negotiations my right hon. Friend will be able to complete that good work.
I wish my right hon. Friend well in the continuation of his negotiations next week. The team will have the best wishes and the good will of the House, and I hope that the industry will recognise what has been achieved so far in difficult circumstances.
11.12 pm
Mr. Gavin Strang: As we debate these proposals, the Community is in crisis. The crisis is caused by the disproportionately large net contribution which the British Government has to make towards the EEC budget. The CAP is at the heart of that problem, because that policy accounts for the vast bulk of EEC expenditure, and this country derives significantly less benefit from expenditure on agriculture than other EEC countries.
It is now fairly generally accepted throughout the country that the CAP represents a monstrous misuse of resources. It is disproportionately costly and stems from the initial decisions taken by the original six members of the Community, and in particular from their decision to fix the prices of cereals at levels that were way out of line with world prices. Since then, new and more costly regimes have been developed and the supporting of agricultural production through open-ended State intervention—a philosophy which one would have expected to be anathema to a Conservative Government who are in favour
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of market forces. One might have expected such a Government to oppose a State commitment to buy a product which may not be needed by the consumer.
Successive British Governments—including the Labour Government of whom I was a member—have set out to reform the CAP, but in the event they have not had the determination to see it through. The Labour Government secured a significant renegotiation in advance of the referendum, but the referendum was conducted at a freak time when EEC prices were comparable to world prices. World prices were then disproportionately high. It was possible for Mrs. Shirley Williams to claim that EEC food prices were lower than food prices outside the EEC. That was not true, but it was possible to make that claim.
Mr. Robert Maclennan: As a member of that Government, the hon. Gentleman must know very well that the figures upon which Mrs. Williams based her assertion were supplied by his own Department.
Mr. Strang: The hon. Gentleman is too sensitive. Mrs. Williams was right to the extent that world prices and EEC prices were relatively close, but that was a freak period. In reality, EEC prices have been maintained at a level much higher than that of world prices. That is the fundamental reason for the huge cost of the CAP. The last Labour Government failed to secure radical reform of the CAP. Invariably, we allowed ourselves to be bought off by concessions for the British people—for example, an enlarged butter subsidy.
The same is true of the previous Conservative Government, who made great speeches about how they would reform the CAP. In the event, they, too, accepted what we can call national bribes, which were really payments and ways of using the CAP to meet the short-term British position. That policy did not tackle the CAP' s fundamental problem.
I have always believed that the CAP is not the best way of supporting continental agriculture. The farming lobby in the Community seeks to defend that policy because it is worried that, if the CAP is dismantled, it will have no effective system of support. The farmers in the Community could be supported more cost effectively by a different policy. The present policy is colossally wasteful. Thousands of millions of pounds are spent.
Sir Nicholas Bonsor: The hon. Gentleman was a Minister responsible for agriculture. He must know that in 1970–71 the true costs of the support policies were in real terms the same as the costs of the present CAP policies. The hon. Gentleman must supply chapter and verse of his proposals.
Mr. Strang: The hon. Gentleman is referring to the cost of supporting British agriculture, but I am talking about the cost of the CAP as it affects agriculture throughout the Community, which is a different point.
Other hon. Members wish to participate in the debate, so I shall discuss the general agricultural position. For many years, this has been the one general debate of agriculture although it focuses on EEC price proposals. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) that it is unfortunate that we are forced to debate this important subject at this time on a Thursday night.
It must be appreciated that we have been lobbied by two separate lobbies from the agriculture industry—the

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National Farmers Union, and the Transport and General Workers Union, on behalf of the farm workers. The farmers are becoming increasingly worried at the publicity directed against their industries. Many hon. Members could criticise the farming community's policies and attitudes, but the agriculture and food industries are enormously important. Some of the comments made have been singularly ill-advised. We have benefited from agricultual expansion. It is strange that, although we are all in favour of producing more steel or cars, there is not the same support for producing more milk, pigs or cereals. The expansion in the agriculture industry has created not additinal jobs on the land, but value added in the economy and many important jobs throughout Britain as a whole, which must be retained. That can be done only by sustaining our present level of agricultural production in milk and other commodities at its present level.
The Government are in danger of threatening British agriculture. The cuts in agricultural research and development are justified on the grounds that the Government want to spend more money on other types of science, research and development. It is fair enough if the Government want to spend more money on information technology or food research, but there is no justification for the severe cuts in the spending on agricultural research. I do not doubt that our agricultural industry's success and advances in productivity stem considerably from the valuable work done in our agricultural research stations.
The second lobby today was on behalf of the farm workers. In passing, I should say that my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Miss Maynard), who would normally be in her place tonight, is unable to be present. If my hon. Friend were here, she would be making a strong case for the farm workers. It must be recognised that the farm workers are deplorably badly paid. Just as successive Labour and Conservative Governments have failed to reform the common agricultural policy, so, under the last Labour Government and the previous Conservative Government, there was no closing of the gap between the average earnings of farm workers and the earnings of workers in other industries. If one compares the average weekly earnings of adult male manual workers in 1974 and in 1983, one finds that, in 1974, the agricultural worker's wage was about 81 per cent. of the wages paid to industry and service workers. In 1983, the figure had slipped to 77 per cent. In 1974, the average earnings in other industries were just over £43 a week, a difference of an agricultural worker was just over £35 a week, while the earnings of approximately £8. In 1983, the corresponding figures were just over £110 for farm workers, and just over £143 for workers in other industries, a gap of no less than £33. That is a scandal, when one takes into account the fact that farm workers are highly skilled. No group of farm workers, whether they work in livestock or in husbandry, with technology or with sophisticated machinery on arable land, deserve a wage less than the national average. It is time that we faced up to that situation. No matter how well the farmer or the agricultural industry is doing, it is never the right time for the National Farmers Union to give the farmers the rate that they deserve. Parliament must accept responsibility for this state of affairs, and it is high time that it was changed. Not only does agriculture require skilled workers, but it is a dangerous industry in which to work.
Mr. Geraint Howells: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman that farm workers should be properly paid. Would he not concede that successive Tory and Labour Governments in the country have recouped farmers' costs only three times in the last 25 years?
Mr. Strang: One has to recognise that there have been major advances in agricultural productivity. In the last two or three decades, I would say that the agricultural industry as a whole has not done too badly in this country. The House debate the case for trying to make more farms available to new entrants only two or three weeks ago. The fact is that more people want to be fanners than there are farms available. This is a reflection of the relative prosperity of the industry, which is to be welcomed. I hope that we never go back to the days when it was difficult to find people to let farms to, as happened at the beginning of the century.
I wish to comment on the proposals before the House. We must support proposals to reduce the overall cost of the common agricultural policy, and to end the monstrous misuse of resources, particularly in the costly milk sector. However, we have a right to insist that these measures are even-handed. There should be no question of British agriculture bearing a disproportionate share of the cuts. The milk cuts could have been worse from the point of view of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Shepherd), but I am not happy that British industry is being asked to bear too large a share of the cuts envisaged in the measures. As I understand it, the situation is up in the air at present, because of the recent walk-out that occurred. I hope that, in subsequent negotiations, a cut in the milk regime will be achieved that is less unfavourable to the British dairy farmer.
Five or six years ago we went through the same process with the beef premium. We thought that it was established, worked well and was to the benefit of the consumer and the Community. Every year we are forced to argue for it. It is used as a bargaining tactic to make us accept some other unpalatable proposal. We are forced to concede on other issues to obtain that premium. We must keep it because it is a valuable means of supporting our beef industry.
It is unsatisfactory to have such a debate at this time of night. Important decisions are involved. We must achieve changes in the CAP, but we must protect our agriculture industry.
11.26 pm
Mrs. Ann Winterton: I have listened to the debate with considerable interest, because the CAP price proposals are important—if not vital—to the country as a whole, to the future of the EEC and to my constituency in particular because it includes many efficient, well-run dairy farms. People involved in the milk industry fully realise and accept that the surpluses in Europe have to be curtailed, although in Britain, as many hon. Members have said, we are just about self-sufficient in dairy products and about 90 per cent. sufficient in liquid milk.
The whole emphasis since the last war has been for successive Governments to encourage our fanning industry to become more efficient and to produce more in the national interest, thereby ensuring reliability of supply

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in the food that we can produce ourselves and making substantial contributions and savings over the years to the balance of payments.
Now it seems that that policy is to be turned on its head. Almost the whole of the milk sector is united in its opposition to the present package, which it finds totally unacceptable. Farmers accept that quotas must be introduced, but believe strongly that certain conditions must be met. First, they believe that any agreement should be fair and equitable among member countries of the EEC and that the British dairy farmer must not be penalised.
It is unacceptable, for example, that Eire should be granted a special deal or be excluded in part or in whole from any agreed scheme. I need hardly remind the House that last year, after a cold, wet spring, followed by a drought, we produced just enough liquid milk in July, August and September to supply our own market. If we depress our future production by 10 per cent., as suggested, we shall have to import liquid milk at such a time. That would open the door to further imports and to the demise of the doorstep delivery. It would certainly rub salt into the farmers' wounds if we punished them for being efficient and then had to import liquid milk from, for example, the Irish Republic, France or Holland.
The farmers in my constituency believe that the co-responsibility levy should not be increased by the 1 per cent. proposed, as that would turn the screw even tighter. In their opinion it should be left as it is.
Most important is the time factor. It is simply impossible to turn an industry round in such a short time—in less than a fortnight—in view of what is involved. Farmers have to plan well ahead; perhaps two or three years ahead. One farmer to whom I spoke today is committed for three years breeding replacement stock because he has a pedigree herd. At the same time, the quality of the stock has been improved by careful, selective breeding so that it produces more milk. To cut the supply by 10 per cent. would mean that more than 10 per cent. of the herd would have to be got rid of and sent to market. That would enormously distort the livestock market, and it has not so far enjoyed a good year.
To add to the problems, the future of the valuable beef premium is still in some considerable doubt. I agree with the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes), who spoke about the price of dairy cattle. I know from my contacts in my constituency that they have dropped approximately £100 during the past week. At my local cattle market at Congleton on Tuesday the number of dairy cattle to be sold was considerably higher than normal.
With all this completely understandable chaos, confusion and uncertainty, to prevent further panic selling the Minister must insist that a transitional period of at least three years should be implemented. During that period the industry would have time to adjust and adapt to the new proposals.
The industry has always proved to be adaptable in the past, and I know that it will do its utmost to fall into line this time, but it must be given the time now so that it can make plans for the future. If it fails to get that time, I dread to think of the number of bankruptcies that might occur among those farmers who have not the kind of land with which they can diversify. Those who have come into the industry relatively recently have been positively encouraged to do so by EEC schemes.
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We must all remember that most livestock farms, particularly tenanted farms, are not like industrial or commercial companies. If the farmer goes into liquidation, he and his family are left without a home and the means to make a living.
The knock-on effect, as several hon. Members have said, for the ancillary industries must not be underestimated at any cost. They play an important part in the economy and employ many people. The economy and structure of rural areas will be affected unless the Government are prepared to think again in the national interest.
I urge the Minister, to think again, and tell him that the message from the majority of those involved with the milk industry is that he will carry this package through next week at his peril.
Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Paul Dean): Order. Before I call the next hon. Member, the House will wish to know that the winding-up speeches from the Front Benches will be restricted to 10 minutes each. With the co-operation of the House that should help me to call many of the large number of Back Benchers who wish to speak.
11.32 pm
Mr. James Nicholson: I wish to change the subject slightly and talk about how the proposals affect Northern Ireland. As has been said, the proposals create great problems for many parts of the United Kingdom, but nowhere do they create more problems than for those of us who come from Northern Ireland and have to make a living from agriculture.
These proposals will not just affect agriculture but also Northern Ireland as a whole. Our dependence upon agriculture as our main industry is well known. Any collapse of that industry would have far-reaching repercussions throughout agriculture and the ancillary and support industries.
Agriculture in Northern Ireland has changed from being mixed farming to being intensive and specialised. We have been forced into that change by Common Market policies. We have been encouraged by the inducements offered by the Department of Agriculture to build silos and go into dairy and beef production. The farmers heeded that call and now find, after all the money that they have spent and all their hard work, that the carpet has been pulled from under them by the people who induced them to start.
Our farmers in Northern Ireland are as efficient as farmers anywhere else in Europe. All that we ask is that we receive a fair and equal opportunity to produce our product without one hand tied behind our back. The present proposals could place our agriculture industry in a serious position. I and my party are prepared to accept that we cannot continue to produce surplus food and add to the present mountains. However, we also make it clear that it is not the United Kingdom farmer who is responsible for the surpluses, but our so-called European partners.
Our dependence on the grass-based sectors has become more pronounced since the intensive sector was decimated. Milk and beef are now the main farming enterprises in Northern Ireland, and our climate and soil do not allow us to shift to cereal production. It has been proposed that milk and beef producers should change to mutton or sheep production. That is all vey fine, but the

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rest of the United Kingdom has the added option to change to cereal production. We are confined to the three main sectors of milk, beef and sheep. That inhibits us from changing.
The milk industry in Northern Ireland is the backbone of our agriculture. The present quota proposals, whether one talks about basing them on 1981 or 1983 percentages, do not make a difference to the people in Northern Ireland. Many farmers will face serious difficulties. If the proposals are implemented, our farmers will be poorer to the tune of £19 million. That will be a terrible cross for them to bear, and will break many of them.
If we have to add to that any change in the co-responsibility levy or in the price for the support of butter or skimmed milk powder, or if there is a tightening of the skimmed milk powder standards, that could add another £6·5 million of losses to those of the Northern Ireland dairy farmer. The total losses are £25·5 million. That is too much for the industry. We should have had a policy of consolidation rather than of annihilation. We need a more gradual downturn in production rather than this drastic cut within 14 days.
I ask the Minister to inform the House whether he has any proposals to allow young farmers to enter into the milk industry, and to assist those who have entered the industry since 1981. Will the producer who, having been given encouragement to do so, purchased extra land and bought extra cows in the hope of paying for the farm, receive any allowances?
The beef industry also plays an important role in Northen Ireland agriculture, which cannot be ignored. I was pleased to hear the Minister's remarks about the variable premium, which is extremely important in Northern Ireland at present. We would be gravely hit if that premium disappeared. I welcome the stand that the Minister proposes to take. If there is any danger of the premium disappearing, the Minister should use his veto to make sure that it continues. We need it for many reasons. The country most opposed to the continuation of the premium is the Republic of Ireland. It has a vested interest in getting rid of the variable premium of which it has been jealous for years. The Minister should remember that it would be to the advantage of the Republic of Ireland if that premium were withdrawn.
The Irish Republic has taken a foolish attitude to the negotiations. For years it has milked the cow. Now that the cow is going dry, the Republic finds it difficult to face the consequences.
Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Will the hon. Member agree that it is grossly unfair that the Irish have increased the number of their cattle from 1,124,000 in 1970 to 1,513,000 in 1982? They have taken advantage of the situation. Does the hon. Member see any reason why they should be exempted from the consequences of their own action?
Mr. Nicholson: I have made clear my views about the Irish Republic.
The Minister should consider the interdependence of the milk and beef sectors. How much worse will the position of the milk producer be if the price for calves drops substantially? We have heard that there has been a fall in cattle prices throughout the United Kingdom because of the uncertainty. If the price of what we call in Northern Ireland the fat cow or the cull cow drops, that
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will seriously affect the milk producer as well as the beef producer. The Minister should remember that these sectors depend greatly on each other.
When I came to the House one of my objectives was to bring before the House at every opportunity the terrible problems of the intensive sector. The plight of the pig and poultry industries has been considerable in recent months. They have been the subject of wide-ranging discussions. My hon. Friends and I from Northern Ireland initiated a four or five hour debate in the House recently so I do not propose to harrow what I have sown earlier, other than to ask the Minister to bear in mind the great relief it would be to the intensive sector in Northern Ireland if we had greater access to intervention grain. That is the one measure that would go a long way to solving our problems.
I implore the Minister to pay special attention to Northern Ireland's needs in his future negotiations. It has been a bone of contention for a long time in Northern Ireland that when the Minister negotiates on behalf of the United Kingdom he is also negotiating for Northern Ireland without the presence of a Northern Ireland Office Minister in his team. Is it not time that a Minister from the Northern Ireland Office was present to represent the interests of the Province? Like many people I feel strongly on this. We are told that meetings take place between the Minister and officials from the Northern Ireland Office. Those meetings may be helpful to the Minister. As the negotiations proceed, changes are taking place from day to day, even from hour to hour, and it would be wise to have there a Minister with knowledge of how whatever is agreed will affect the producers of Northern Ireland, and the same could be said of the producers of Scotland, Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom. I hope that the Minister will take that suggestion to heart and will, when he negotiates, have on his team a Minister resonsible for agricultural matters in Northern Ireland.
11.46 pm
Mr. John Watson: No purpose is served by a lengthy debate on whether this is a good or bad settlement. I confess that my initial reaction to it was that Britain had agreed to accept a reduction of 7 per cent. in output and a freeze on prices; that the French had accepted a 3 per cent. reduction in output and a significant increase in prices; that the Germans seem to have got away with a facility to increase their national aids; and that the Irish appeared to have the possibility of opting out completely.
I do not know that raking over the coals of the settlement is likely to do any good. I believe that it is the settlement, that it is likely to be ratified, and that it is the one with which we shall have to reside. I can understand it if my right hon. Friend and the Minister of State feels that it is slightly impertinent for Back Benchers such as myself, who have not been involved in the detail of the negotiations, to pontificate on whether a good outcome has been achieved.
For dairy farmers generally, the impact of this settlement will be bad rather than good. That is important because dairy farmers in the last 10 years have shown a fine example to other sectors of industry by the productivity increases that they have achieved, yet their standard of living now is little different from that o f 10 years ago and is markedly lower than that of two years ago. If, as a result of this settlement, we consign them to a standard of living in the next couple of years yet lower than it is now, we have reason to be concerned.

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The issue does not concern only dairy farmers, for dairy farming is the staple industry of many rural areas and all the rural services of schools, shops, pubs and rural transport depend more heavily than is customarily realised on the continued prosperity of the specialist nature of farming in those areas.
Dairy farmers are now facing a price freeze and a reduction in output. If we adopt as one of our objectives the maintenance of their standard of living, we must address ourselves to those aspects of the package which are still to be negotiated, in particular those which concern the input costs of dairy farmers, and in this context I have a few constructive suggestions which may help my right hon. Friend on his way. If a reduction of 1 per cent. or 2 per cent. in cereal prices can finally be agreed, that is unlikely to cause terrible hardship to cereal farmers but is likely to be of considerable assistance to dairy farmers.
There is no need this year for there to be a major increase in rents for tenant farmers. The abolition last week of the investment income surcharge will enable the landlord of a 150-acre dairy farm to have an after-tax income of £1,000 more than he previously received. I hope that that will remove the upward pressure on farm rents this year.
The emphasis throughout this debate has been on reducing the cost of the common agricultural policy by reducing the amount paid for intervention stocks. Very little mention has been made of the cost of storage of these stocks. The CAP last year cost £9·7 billion. Of that total, 8 per cent.—almost £800 million—was the cost of storing dairy products. If this package is successful, it is reasonable to assume that those storage costs in future years will be a lot lower than at present. Based on the United Kingdom dairy herd, our share of those storage costs seems likely to be £105 million or thereabouts. If that sum in future years can find its way into direct assistance for the United Kingdom dairy farmers by way of help with their input costs, it will greatly alleviate the burden.
There is one aspect of the marginal lands scheme that can be of specific assistance. Many dairy farmers are in areas now designated as marginal land. There is widespread expectation that on 1 January next year my right hon. Friend will announce a marginal lands scheme of assistance which will give beef and sheep allowances of about 50 per cent. of the current hill livestock compensatory allowances. If there were any possibility of the announcement of that scheme being brought forward from 1 January next year to 1 June this year, it would help to sweeten what is otherwise a very bitter pill.
I emphasise to my right hon. Friend that 1983 minus 6 per cent. is considerably better for most small dairy farmers than 1981 plus 1 per cent. In my constituency, the people who have gone heavily into dairy farming in the past two years are those who are younger in age and who work smaller farms and who, at the same time, are more highly geared to their bank managers than are those who have a more stable history of dairy farming over the past 15 or 20 years.
If my right hon. Friend could bear in mind these suggestions, which I hope are constructive in nature, when he replies to the debate, I would be most grateful.
11.51 pm
Mr. David Penhaligon: The debate tonight is in many ways quite remarkable. I recall few Thursday nights in the Chamber when at nine minutes to midnight there have been so many Members who represent seats so many miles from this House present and active in the debate. That is a good indication to the Minister of just how important the debate is, as I am sure he does not need me to tell him. What has been said already must have given him something on which to reflect.
Let us start with common ground. There are few who would do other than recognise that the milk surplus in Europe required some reaction. There is a general recognition that the Minister had to do something. We have a tremendous surplus in Europe and anyone who even occasionally glances through Euro-documents on milk production cannot help but see that frightening graph that has existed for Europe since 1974 of relatively constant consumption and a quite dramatic increase in production.
I have, therefore, recognised, and have always told my farmers in the south west, that a problem existed. I have always believed that its solution would cause difficulties for some and anger for a few. I have envisaged the possibility that the solution might push a very few who were near it over the financial brink.
I had little sympathy for the Minister until he reached that dramatic line in his speech where he referred to the constant advice from his predecessor. It was at that moment that I lost the sympathy that I had so far felt. One of the great delights of the calendar in my part of the world is an invitation to the annual meeting of the county National Farmers Union. Since I have been a Member of the House I have missed just one. It is a good meeting, where I talk to people who are actually making and doing something in life. It is always an enjoyable opportunity to meet people who are, at least in my area, the backbone of the economy.
In January 1983, the county meeting had the great honour of having present the then Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The more perceptive members of the audience asked him questions. One particular gentleman received an answer, the words of which, I suspect, will ring in his ears for a long time. He said to the Minister, "The surplus is as it is and is increasing. What do you want us to do? What do you advise the agriculturalists in this room to do?" I nearly fell off my chair in sheer disbelief at the reply. It was, "Produce, produce, produce." That was the reply given at a select agricultural meeting in an area like mine where farming is so important to the economy. The only justification for such an argument only 12 months ago last January was that the Minister believed that that approach would result in a high production figure from which we could negotiate a good final solution within Europe. In fact, it did not help one iota. The base for the year in question did not include the period when the Minister gave such foolish advice to my constituents, which will cost many of them thousands of pounds and may push more than a few over the line. There is outrage in my constituency over that advice. The problem will not go away next week or next month; it will remain with the agricultural industry over the next four or five years.
Britain is one of the few countries in the EC that does not produce a surplus of agricultural products, but the Minister's achievement is that he has managed to obtain one of the largest cuts. It is reported in The Times that the

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average cut is 5·3 per cent. and that Britain's cut will be 7·32 per cent. There are some who argue that the cut will be greater than that but no one argues that it will be less. France negotiated a cut of 2·97 per cent. I told the farmers in my constituency that although Britain was not producing a surplus it would be expected to make a contribution to reducing the Community's surplus. But I never expected that Britain would be asked to make a greater contribution to reducing the surplus in Europe than any other member state that was in deficit.
Mr. Allan Rogers rose——
Mr. Penhaligon: No, I shall not give way. The Minister presents his "great triumph" when he has negotiated a greater reduction in production for our farmers than the farmers of any other deficity-producing state. He justifies this result by saying that he has managed to close some of the obvious loopholes of which the French were taking advantage. Those loopholes had to be covered if the outcome was not to be a running joke of the first order. The fact that the Minister presents the outcome of the negotiations as a triumph is something that is beyond belief.
Agriculture is the largest industry in the county which, in part, I represent, and the milk sector accounts for 80 per cent. of the industry. The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Nicholson) talked about the milk that is produced in his constituency. I must tell him that the area that he represents is not unique. There are many high rainfall areas in which there are alternative forms of agriculture but there is no great desire on the part of the fanners to take them up.
What can the Minister do? He is already committed to a considerable extent. I suspect that it would be somewhat difficult to embark on a renegotiation of the package next week. However, he should demand a longer period of adjustment. If he did so, I believe that he could obtain it, especially as we are making such an enormous contribution to reducing a surplus that we do not play a significant part in producing.
Mr. Bill Walker: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the farming community, although not necessarily speaking with one voice on the timescale, is in part looking for as quick a settlement as possible? The Scottish NFU would like to see matters settled as quickly as possible.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: That is about 5 per cent. of the industry.
Mr. Walker: The Scottish NFU is saying that we should achieve the reduction quickly and not spread it out.
Mr. Penhaligon: I admire the Scottish NFU for that contribution. Perhaps we should organise the cuts so that it contributes to the problem in one year and the rest of us have three years in which to deal with it. I suspect that when the Scottish NFU was considering who to approach in this place, I was not the first person who came to its mind, living a whole 28 miles from Land's End. The Scots, for once, are willing to be the first to give away cash. This is a unique experience for me during the time that I have been a Member of this place. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on drawing that to the attention of the House. I trust that the Minister will bear that in mind when next week's discussions take place.
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Can the Minister tell me whether it would be legal for the Government, out of their money, to organise a compensation scheme for what I suspect will be many genuine hard cases? Secondly, what does this agreement mean in relation to milk production? Will it be the 7 per cent. as reported in The Times or will it be nearer the 10 per cent. figure that my farmers expect? Thirdly, how will the agreement be organised? Some say that it will be dairy-based or farm-based, or that it will be based on 1981 or 1983 prices. I see the advantages of using 1981 as a negotiating base. Who will make the final decision about the organisation? Will the Minister set up an appeals procedure so that an independent voice is involved in the decisions that will be make-or-break for many farmers?
The last question that my dear farmers wished me to ask the Minister is one for which I always admire them. They wish to know who will pay for the administration of the scheme, because they fear that they will have to pay for it as well. The Minister was too vague about such matters in his speech, given that he is likely to sign such an agreement next Tuesday or Wednesday. I cannot believe that he has not thought about it more than he appeared to do in his speech.
What power of veto will the Minister have next week? If the Minister wishes to nod or shake his head in response, I shall report it now so that Hansard gets it on the record. "Paralysed" is the answer; either the Minister does not know or he is not telling me. I hope that it is the latter, because since he has the job next Tuesday I should like to think that he knows, although none of my farmers do.
The theory is obvious. If farmers cannot produce milk, they will produce something else, so the surpluses will be transferred from one product to another. Are we moving into a period of quotas for everything?
Mr. Allan Rogers: Why not?
Mr. Penhaligon: Why not, indeed? It is a fair point. Such a scheme works well with potatoes. If we are moving towards quotas for everything, I hope that the Minister will tell us.
The Minister has not done a brilliant job for agriculture. I have always sat in Opposition in the House, but as a result of this debate there will be a bigger swing towards the alliance in rural areas. If a Labour Government were presenting this solution to the House, the anger that I hope I have expressed on behalf of my constituents tonight would not be a patch on what I know some Conservative Members would have said. I do not know how the Minister can sit there and believe that he has got a good agreement for Britain. I recognise that he made some progress, but this is a pretty poor way to have made it, and it is vastly inferior to what Cornwall's farmers reasonably expected.
12.3 am
Mr. Jim Spicer: It is extremely difficult to follow a speech such as the one we heard from the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon). What would he do if he were in a position to do anything? The pass has already been sold, because only today the leader of the alliance, the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen), said that he would have settled in any circumstances last week, and I am sure that he would continue to do so across the board. We must listen to this rhetorical nonsense against that background.
Mr. Penhaligon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Spicer: I will not. Sit down. As you made clear, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you wish us to be brief in this debate, and that is what I intend to do.
I wish to make some brief points to my right hon. Friend. Although he may not be able to answer tonight, I know that he will bear in mind all that has been said in this debate when he meets his European colleagues next week.
If the dairy farmer in this country is anything, he is above all a realist. For many years, every dairy farmer has understood that we could not continue with unlimited output. This was best summed up by Sir Henry Plumb who said at the Oxford farming conference last year that it was a question of discipline or disaster. We must have discipline, and discipline is never pleasant.
At the same time, over the past five or 10 years politicians, be they commissioners or Ministers, have played their part in encouraging more investment in the dairy sector, because the incentive of the 40 per cent. grant has been almost irresistible. Even today many dairies are being reconstructed to build up the milk side, with the result that there will be severe hardship to many. I join the hon. Member for Truro on this one point. There will certainly be cases of hardship and I hope that they will be dealt with sympathetically both within the Community and by our own Government by every means possible.
As for the base year, I agree that 1983 minus six is better than 1981 plus one, but it is on the margin. I still cannot see why we could not have the mean of the three years. 1981 was not a very good year, 1982 was a very good year and 1983 was a bad silage year, as my farmers in west Dorset have stressed to me today. Why did we not try harder for the three-year mean average, which might have produced a better result?
The starting date of 1 April is a major problem for the dairy industry. The Milk Marketing Board says that the quota will start on that date, but there is still utter confusion about how it will operate. If even a short period could be allowed beyond that date it would help the industry to put its house in order.
Whether we like it or not, the impact of this package will be dramatic in all areas, but especially in Dorset, which is one of the most prolific and best milk-producing counties in the land.
Mr. Nicholas Baker: It is the most highly productive dairy county.
Mr. Spicer: My hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker) supported me on the last occasion and has supported me again today.
I am worried about the way in which this goes down the line from the dairy farm. We have just seen a limited recovery on the agricultural machinery side. I am afraid that these measures will have a major impact there and throughout the rural community. I need not emphasise that our overdraft total is over £5 billion and rising, and a substantial part of it relates to the dairy sector. A 1 or 2 per cent. reduction in grain prices will have no impact. Why cannot we have lower grain prices to help us over this and move to denaturing as we have in the past when other commodities have been in surplus? I do not understand it, most farmers do not understand it and we need an explanation.
On the additional costs of the package, last week in Strasbourg we were given a base level of minimum of £600
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million to £700 million and a maximum of £1,000 million or more. Where is that money to come from? Will it be a direct charge on the individual nation states, or will it be found somewhere in the Community by somehow washing money that already exists?
We need to rebuild confidence within the dairy industry and to make it clear that the total impact of this will not be disastrous. Equally important, we must end the confusion that currently exists in the industry.
12.10 am
Mr. Allan Rogers: As the Member for the Rhondda, I must admit that I participate in this debate with some trepidation. I know as much about farming as hon. Members on the Government Benches know about mining, so my views in this debate will be just about as considered as their views normally are on matters relating to the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers. I participate, however, on the basis that the people in my constituency are a part of the triangle that so many people forget about—they are consumers. It is significant, I suppose, that there are so many hon. Gentlemen present on the other side of the House tonight. I should like to see the Register of Members' Interests in relation to farming. I would like to tot it up.
The hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Spicer) mentioned Sir Henry Plumb and his advocacy, as the chairman of the democratic group in the European Parliament, and of course Sir Henry Plumb, as a former president of the National Farmers Union and, as a fairly substantial farmer in the Thames valley, has a particular vested interest. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is Warwickshire."] Is it Warwickshire? Well, he has slid over the border, then. That is the trouble with very big estates; you are never quite sure what county you will land up in. If the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. McQuarrie) will keep his grouse under control, I will proceed.
As a Member for the Rhondda valley I have a vested interest in representing consumers, and that may be of interest to the hon. Gentleman who is making peculiar signals. As the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) said, the farmers in this country—and I do have a great deal of sympathy with the small farmers in this country—have been told time and again to produce, produce, produce, in the same way as under the Common Market regulations and treaty obligations, the coal miners are told to produce, produce, produce. Then, when they reach a point of overproduction, we shall see the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan, who is speaking while I am speaking, saying that the coal mines should be shut.
Should I say that we should shut the farms, close down the cows, cut off their udders? Perhaps we hould have the same medicine for the farmers as some hon. Gentlemen would like to dole out to the coal miners. Close a farm and there is a great problem. Close a coal mine, with 1,000 people depending on it for their living and that of their wives and children, and that is of no concern to the hon. Gentlemen.
I have more concern for the farmers than hon. Gentlemen have for the coal miners, because they are in a difficult position. Quite frankly, as other hon. Members have said during the debate, they have been sold out by this Government—sold out particularly last summer, and sold out now.
Every hon. Member when he searches his heart knows that farmers have been sold out in this deal. The deal that

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comes out has nothing to do with farmers, the efficiency of the farmers, the well-being of the farmers. It has to do with getting the rebate for Britain. They will sell out the farmers as long as the Prime Minister can come back with a bunch of money in her arm and say, "Look what I have screwed out of Europe". And the farmers will be sold down the road in the same way as we sold our coal miners and our steel workers.
They say they want to put quotas on the farmers, but I say "Beware, you farmers, when you go down to the quota road". They did it to the steel industry, but did the Italians take their quotas? Did the Germans take their quotas? No. They gave a very rude signal to the European Commission. Perhaps our farmers should give it a rude signal as well, just as the French farmers do.
The problem is that our farmers will play the game on quotas, because we have a good policing system in this country, as can be seen when they come out in Nottinghamshire. The French and the Germans give a little sign to their Governments, and the Governments look the other way. Mitterrand will not sell his small farmers down the river in the same way as the Prime Minister and the Minister will sell our small farmers down the river.
I am concerned about the small farmers—especially the hill farmers and those who exist in the south Wales valleys. Some farmers came to see me today. I admit that I do not know a great deal about the subject——
Sir Peter Mills: The hon. Gentleman does not need to tell us that.
Mr. Rogers: All right, but at least I acknowledge my ignorance—perhaps the hon. Gentleman should do the same sometimes.
A farmer explained to me how he bred his cows and built a milking parlour. If he plans for 100 cows and is then told that he can have only 50, that causes great problems. The farmer is a simple man who tried to explain the problems to me because I have no knowledge of the subject. He only earns £4,000 a year. I looked at his hands—they were not the hands of a gentleman farmer; they were thick and calloused. He had been fencing yesterday and had ripped apart his hands on the fence. He had the hands of a miner.
That farmer works hard for his £4,000 a year. Now he will be told that he has to put down some cows because of a regulation from Europe. He has to change mid-stream. He cannot produce, produce and produce because he has to put down his cows and cut back his production. He is wondering what he can do. He is genuinely confused. Unlike those who have had a more sophisticated education, that farmer does not know what to do. The Minister should consider the problem not from the view of how it will affect big business farmers, but how it will affect small farmers.
The knock-on from that is how it will affect the consumers. The common agricultural policy was supposed to be about self-sufficiency in Europe—which was desirable after the war—about having a good deal for farmers—there is nothing wrong with that, farmers work to earn their living like other workers—but it was also about having a good deal for consumers. The British consumers have been sold down the river by the CAP and the implementation of its various aspects.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: The hon. Gentleman says that the consumers have been sold down
1300
the river. What major product has not increased in price in real terms during the past five or six years, other than food? Yet the hon. Gentleman calls that selling the consumer down the river. That is nonsense.
Mr. Rogers: If the hon. Gentleman wants to go back in history, as Conservative Members so often do, I could go back to Disraeli. I am talking about now, not the historical perspective. At the present time there is absolutely no doubt that we could buy certain of our foods far cheaper in the world market than in the European Community. The hon. Gentleman cannot deny that. We cannot isolate European prices; they must be related to world prices.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop rose——
Mr. Rogers: No, I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman again. He will have his chance to speak, if he has not already spoken.
We must realise that the farm prices and the farm deal are part of a package. The Prime Minister wanted a cash rebate. In return for that, there is an increase in VAT and a sell-out in the farm sector. The proposals for price reduction, to which the Minister bent his arm in the olive oil sector, are of great importance to the people of the Rhondda and the farmers in Cheshire who have a surplus of olive oil. They will be very pleased about the deal that has been struck there, but they are not so concerned about the deals struck in other sectors. There is a substantial gap between EEC and world prices. The freeze in the milk support price is welcome, but a price cut would have been much better and would not have been particularly damaging to the small farmers. It would not have been beyond the wit of the right hon. Gentleman to have protected our small farmers in that sector. The proposed levy and quota system may well result in a price increase to consumers.
Incomprehensibly, Ministers have agreed that there will be a 12 per cent. surplus of about 11 million tonnes. If we were dealing with coal or steel, they would want to reverse in their tracks immediately. If the United Kingdom butter subsidy is phased out, there will still be a net increase of about 3p per 250 gramme pack.
Mr. Jopling indicated dissent.
Mr. Rogers: The Minister shakes his head. Perhaps he will explain why I am wrong, but I should like to hear the logic of the figures that he will present.
There is now a surplus of three and a half billion packs of butter in the Community, and a surplus of over one million tonnes of skimmed milk powder.
Mr. Jopling: The hon. Gentleman had admitted that he does not know much about the subject. On butter prices, the proposal at the moment is that there should be a 75 per cent. reduction in the butter subsidy. The effect of that would be almost exactly taken up by a reduction in the intervention price for butter. Hence the net effect of the package would be that butter prices would not rise in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Rogers: The housewives of the United Kingdom will wait with bated breath to see what happens in the next few months. The Minister says that the effect will be almost exactly taken up. We shall have to wait and see what "almost" means.
The freeze in the cereal sector is a start, but EEC prices are still 25 per cent. higher than prices in the United States.

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In the beef sector, surpluses are expected this year to be worth £800 million—far more than any surplus in any other manufacturing sector in this country. In the sugar sector, production is still running at about 35 per cent. more than demand. All MCAs work as a tax on United Kingdom food imports and raise United Kingdom food prices.
The other Commission proposals on the oils and fats tax, the imports of cereal substitutes, and beef and lamb premiums will all increase prices to the consumer. Conservative Members are not concerned about that. They have a strong vested interest in farming. They are more concerned about the production side. That is where they belong. The Conservative party has always protected its own vested interests. Conservative Members should admit honestly that they are looking after their friends in the industry and do not give much for the interests of the consumers.
12.24 am
Sir Peter Mills: After that speech by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr.Rogers) I should declare an interest. Comparing the coal industry with agriculture means getting into deep water. Every farmer I see would like to get out of the industry and receive £1,000, or £35,000, which is the sum sometimes given to miners to get out of the mining industry. The average subsidy given to the coal miners is much higher than the average subsidy given to British farmers. The hon. Gentleman should be careful when comparing coal mining with agriculture.
This is not a happy day for British agriculture. I fully accept the criticisms made by British agriculture against politicians, especially those in the Commission. Over many years, farmers have been encouraged to produce a great deal of food. We are suffering because of the failure of Council Ministers to deal with the problem. The previous Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food tried, but failed, to awaken the Council of Ministers to the dangers ahead.
I do not agree that this is a good deal for British agriculture, but it must be done, in the interest of the dairy fanner and the future of British agriculture. It is surgery, and it hurts, but it must be done. If we do not reach an agreement on this subject next week—because of the Irish problem, and I hope my right hon. Friend will remain firm on this matter——
Mr. Jackson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Sir Peter Mills: I shall not give way, because other hon. Members wish to speak—eventually there will be no more money to provide the intervention funds required for the British dairy farmer. Intervention and subsidies to the British dairy fanner are costing about £1 million a day. We must take action to protect the dairy industry in the long run. I did not like it when, for the first time, our Back-Bench committee had to say to the NFU president that we could not go on increasing producton, and that we must go into reverse. These are sad and hurtful times. As the Minister has rightly said, this action must be taken.
I think I am entitled to say something about the Minister, because for many years I have been the friend of British agriculture and of my right hon. Friend. We entered Parliament together. I deplore the attacks made on
1302
him by many people, the press and, I regret to say, a few hon. Members. Some of the criticisms have been ridiculous. The present Minister is batting on a different wicket from the former Minister. My right hon. Friend has had a difficult task to achieve his objectives. I am greatly upset that many of those people attacked him in the press and other places but did not have the guts to do so during the NFU council meeting some weeks ago or at other times when speaking to him. Let us have none of those attacks in the future. We should be encouraging my right hon. Friend in his difficult task. We wish him all the best in the coming week. Of course, we must criticise him in a pleasant way and urge him on to stand firm on certain matters, and I do that constantly. We must point out where he is going wrong, but there should not be the type of criticism we have had from some quarters, including the press.
The many pluses have not been highlighted. My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. Shepherd) and other hon. Members have talked about those factors. The preservation of the MCA was the first thing the NFU wanted to achieve. My right hon. Friend has achieved that objective and that is a major plus. The beef and sheep objectives I believe we can achieve, although there may be some slight adjustments in the latter. The hill cow subsidy has been achievable, as has marginal land, and the Government have reduced interest rates. I believe that feed costs will come down, particularly because of the world situation, with so much grain being planted up in America, together with the reductions in this country. That should help the stock farmer.
I believe that my right hon. Friend will continue to remain firm on the exemptions that were tried on by the Commission, and by other countries. I wish to see the 1983 system applied, on a dairy basis. It will give more flexibility, and it will help where some farmers are unable to produce enough, or want to get out to let others in.
I urge the National Fanners Union and the Milk Marketing Board to discuss fully with the Government ways of achieving what is best for British dairy farmers, and to take notice of some of the excellent points that have been raised in the debate. Flexibility is necessary. The 1983 system on a dairy basis I think will help.
It would have been better for the Minister, and for British agriculture, if we could have had a united lobby from the NFU and the MMB. If farmers had been guided better to decide what is right, that would have been of great benefit. Being at sixes and sevens did not help the cause, and I believe was a disadvantage to the Minister. In future discussions, particularly regarding the direction in which to go on quotas, I hope that we can be more united. We should seek a fairer solution for the dairy farmers. We must work our way through this unpleasant situation.
I am not a happy man tonight because of what I have been able to say. I believe that the Minister and the Government are right, because this has to be done. Any further delay would make matters even worse for the future of British dairy farming.
12.32 am
Mr. Albert McQuarrie: Time does not permit me to take issue with some of the points raised by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Sir P. Mills).

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The main concern of the agriculture industry is that the breakdown in talks must not cause further damage to British agriculture. The debate is not what we would have wished, because it is taking place against a background of uncertainty, with no clear guide as to what the future holds for this important sector of the British economy.
I hope that no hon Member will take offence if I concentrate on the effect that the Brussels price review will have on the Scottish farmers, for whom I speak. The National Farmers Union of Scotland recognises the importance of the future pattern of support for the milk sector. It favours the introduction of a quota supplementary levy scheme, but suggests that the Commission's proposals should be amended by providing assurances that there will be no exemptions to the levy, with the base period amended to take account of the 1983 pattern of production, to provide assurances in relation to the quota quantity, and to encourage voluntary incentives to curtail production.
The Scottish NFU accepts that the support price increases for cereals should be at a lower rate than those for livestock, but the acceptance of this principle is conditional upon the fact that action must be taken to limit the imports of cereals substitutes from the Community. At the same time, the union rejects the Commission's proposals that the EEC cereal prices should be aligned with those in competing countries, because production conditions are completely different. The Scottish NFU strongly opposes the proposals to tighten quality standards for intervention and for export, as this would further depress prices in the United Kingdom and discriminate against United Kingdom producers.
Scotland will be particularly affected by the proposals because of its climatic conditions. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider the NFU's proposals for the introduction of differential support prices for feed wheat and barley to reflect their different feed values, and also its suggestion on how to improve access to and the availability of cereals held in intervention. That would be of great value to the pig and poultry sections of the industry, which are suffering severely because of the high cost of cereals.
Beef is an important sector in Scotland. Farmers there are adamant that the Government must not yield one inch in their declared stand to maintain the variable premium system. The Commission's proposal will do nothing to meet the rising production costs or to assure the future supply of beef to the United Kingdom. The Scottish farmers reject outright the proposals to abolish the United Kingdom variable premium and demand that in negotiations we should seek its full retention.
The suckler cow premium is another factor. For some years there has been a steady decline in the suckler cow herd. To arrest that decline, it is essential for the suckler cow premium to be increased. Unless there is a movement upwards, the suckler cow herds will continue to decrease dramatically, to the detriment of producers and consumers.
The sheepmeat regime has involved one of the most successful subsidies by this Government and the EEC. Although it is not strictly involved in the 1984–85 price proposals, it is important for Scottish farmers. The Commission's proposal that the variable premiums be limited to 25 per cent. of the guide price and that any shortfall in the premium payments arising should not be incorporated in the amended ewe premium is wholly
1304
unacceptable. Such a move would discriminate against United Kingdom producers, because they alone would not have the assurance of returns which are currently extended to all EEC producers under the regime. I ask my right hon. Friend to reject the proposals, which can only do lasting damage to the farming industry.
The pig industry is facing total collapse due to the Government's record of indifference and unwillingness to exploit even the most modest opportunities which the EEC pigmeat regime could offer to alleviate the now desperate situation facing pig farmers who are still in business. Many pig farmers have been forced out of business in the last few years.
Reports from Brussels show that a solution on MCAs is likely to be found which would, in itself and as a result of the green pound currency system, avoid changes in United Kingdom support prices in sterling terms. Scottish farmers have urged that, but they understand that there could be an opportunity for increases in support prices in a number of other EEC countries. That is a matter of concern because of its possible impact on the competitive advantage within the Community.
The firm belief of the farming industry in Scotland is that despair is creeping in at the lack of understanding by the Government about the magnitude of what is at stake for the whole of the agriculture industry. I implore my right hon. Friend to heed urgently the pleas of the people who have backed the Government and their Members in the constituencies. No industry has done more for the economy than the farming industry. We cannot fail to heed the farmers' cry for help in their time of need. If we fail them, we fail ourselves and we fail the future of a great industry. Our determination must be that, whatever the cost, we shall back the industry to the hilt. I look to my right hon. Friend to give a firm assurance to the House and the country tonight.
12.39 am
Mr. Mark Hughes: There has been a curious gap in the debate, because nobody has mentioned horticulture. It is a major element in British agriculture, but it has been overlooked. The package contains nothing about the desperate plight of horticulture. I deeply regret that. It would have been better if the Minister and other hon. Members had included mention of that sector in the debate.
We have concentrated upon milk and beef production, but primarily milk. It is clear that most milk producers are faced with a loss of income of about £100 per cow per year. What is much more important—this is where a politician is on dangerous ground, but I should he the last to say that this was a self-fulfilling prophecy—during the past week the capital value of the collateral of bank loans against dairy cows has dropped by £100 per cow. Many farmers in Pembroke, Cheshire, Cardigan, Devon and Cornwall have suddenly found that the capital value of their collateral has declined. A friesian in-calf heifer which was worth £750 two weeks ago is now worth £650, and it will be lucky to make £500 in a week's time.
We must ensure that before the Government introduce these draconian cuts on 1 April they make the arrangements necessary to inhibit the pressures on the cash flow for dairy farmers which will follow.
Labour and Conservative Governments encouraged the farmers to go into milk production and it is therefore incumbent upon the House to make certain that they do not

1305
end in Carey Street because they have seen their collateral collapse. We must ensure that the value of the monthly income of dairy farmers is maintained in the short term while they adjust.
Our objection to the scheme is not that we must reduce dairy production, but that it is being done too quickly. One cannot announce to dairy farmers on or about 10 or 12 March that their incomes will be cut from 1 April. That gives them insufficient time to make proper arrangements to continue their business. Unless the Government make adequate proposals for a bridging arrangement, great anger will be felt by the dairy sector, and rightly so.
The Opposition accept the need to limit the budget and control expenditure, but not if it means bankrupting farmers because Her Majesty's Government decline to make the necessary transitional arrangements. That is what I find unacceptable about the proposals.
The next stage down the line is that in two years about 75 per cent. of the beef on the butcher's slab will come from the dairy herd. Unless we can guarantee the throughput of that beef from the dairy herd, the British consumer will have a shortfall. That follows as night follows day. If one cuts back one's dairy herd, one will not have the cull calves to put through as beef animals.
Unless there is a significant improvement in the suckler cow regime immediately—not next January, next April, this year, next year, some time, never—I cannot see how any Agricultural Development Advisory Service adviser could advise those hard-pressed dairy farmers faced with a diminution of their income from dairying which bull they should put their heifers to. They must put them to beef bulls, with an adequate suckler cow scheme. The Minister will know that at the moment the payment is £12·37 per cow. It is within the Community guidelines and regulations to increase it by 100 per cent. As long as the Minister can get the Chancellor of the Exchequer to agree, he can do so. That would offset much of the anguish in the dairy and beef sector over this package. We have not had a whisper or a whimper of a suggestion of that.
That is our problem. We are faced with a massive closure on milk, which is too quick. In no way can the dairy producers adjust. We need two or three years to do the job. I had the pleasure and privilege of meeting the Carmarthen representatives of the National Farmers Union the other day. The accident that I could speak Welsh to them was totally fortuitous.
Mr. McQuarrie: Was there a by-election?
Mr. Hughes: No. They came to meet the hon. Member representing Durham. There is not a by-election in Durham at the moment, as far as I know.
Those people told me that in the past week, in Carmarthen alone the capital value of the dairy herd had dropped by £1 million. In the next week, it will drop by another £1 million. If Conservative Members believe that that is a recipe for winning a by-election, they should get on with it. It is their business, not mine.
On that basis, the dairy industry is teetering at the top of a terrifying downward spiral. If livestock values, land values and so on go down, we will be in difficulty. For that reason, I trust that the House will consider very carefully the subject that we are debating. We are not satisfied that the package does anything to help the agriculture industry.
12.50 am
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John MacGregor): Like the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mr. Hughes), I have accepted a limited time for replying to enable as many as possible of my hon. Friends and Opposition Members to comment on the developments so far in the current price review, which is always the point of this debate. It means that I cannot cover all the points that have been raised, and also that I shall have to speak at some speed.
The first thing that strikes me about the debate is that it has been noticeable that there has been almost total agreement in all the contributions about the need to tackle the surpluses and to contain the cost of meeting those surpluses. No one has disputed that fundamental principle. There has been argument about the transitional period in one sector and about spome of the details, but not about the principle. It is important to recognise that. Some hon. Members were not prepared to face the consequences of their acceptance of the need to tackle the problem. They hoped that there was an escape hatch down which they could go so as not to face the painful consequences. I say with great regret and feeling that, alas, that option is not open to those who have to take the decisions.
I should like to make two opening points before dealing with the contributions that have been made. First, as my hon. Friends the Member for Hereford (Mr. Shepherd) amd for Torridge and Devon, West (Sir P. Mills) recognised, in these negotiations my right hon. Friend faces an exceptionally difficult situation, much more difficult than that of previous Ministers. This time there is a cash flow and a market crisis—by market crisis I mean the inability to get rid of the surpluses—as all Ministers at the Agriculture Council have recognised. If we are to have a more stable and realistic basis for the future of the industry, it must surely be right to face this problem now.
Secondly, we are in a negotiating situation that is difficult for all Ministers. My hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Watson) gave a description of what he thought the negotiations were like and the outcome so far for the United Kingdom compared with other member states. He should read the newspapers of other member states to find out what they are saying about the outcome so far. He would see that very often it is thought that we have got a much better deal than their Ministers. It is not possible to achieve all the national objectives that we have set ourselves and that have been urged upon us throughout the negotiations. We can only go flat. out to try to meet the problems and to ensure that we end up with a solution that is as fair to the British farming industry as it is to any other.
There is one other difference at these negotiations. I have not been at previous negotiations, but I am told that often every member state had a particular goodie, scheme or proposition which it wanted and which would involve additional expenditure or some help here or there, and that in the trading off at the end everyone got a little bit which helped to meet the national interest. That is not the situation that we are in this time. Everyone has to cut back, and this makes the negotiations much more difficult.
I was fascinated by the policies of the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) as he unfolded them. He made four points. First, he believed that we still had a long way to go to achieve fundamental reforms of the CAP and

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to cut the budget costs. The implication was that he was looking for more drastic surgery. Secondly, he wanted a redistribution between countries that would not be to the advantage of the agriculture industry in the United Kingdom. Thirdly, he pointed out, rightly, that even with the overall target that we have accepted within the Community, for the dairy quotas this year, there is still a substantial dairy surplus. There is still a surplus of 10 to 15 per cent. even with that target. He criticised the fact that we had reached that position, the implication being that he would cut back more. Fourthly, he was very critical about any possibility of going over the Commission's original budget ceiling.
Taking those four points together, I hope that all farmers in the United Kingdom will take the message that the effects on their production and incomes would be much more severe and immediate under the hon. Gentleman's policies than they will be under what we are doing.
Like the hon. Member for City of Durham I come to the issue that has mainly concerned the House tonight—the dairy industry. I understand entirely all the fears and worries of the dairy sector, and I am extremely sympathetic to it. I wish that we could have gone for a longer transition. Because I understand the problems, I am critical about the surpluses not having been tackled earlier, for, if they had been, we should have been able to achieve the kind of transition for which everyone is asking. We now face in the Community costs of disposing of the dairy surplus of about £3 billion a year, 30 per cent. of the total CAP and 20 per cent. of total EEC expenditure, and rising.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton rose——
Mr. MacGregor: I cannot give way. I have only five more minutes and I am trying to deal with the points that were raised about the dairy sector.
Mr. Winterton: My hon. Friend is not doing it very well.
Mr. MacGregor: The surpluses, even with the current painful decisions, will still be 10 to 15 per cent. In the United Kingdom we are now self-sufficient and we have substantial stocks in intervention. We have 116,000 tonnes of butter, which is 137 days' supply, and we have 161,000 tonnes of skimmed milk powder, which is no fewer than 648 days' supply. Clearly, therefore, these matters must be tackled. It is better to tackle them now, otherwise the whole problem will be much worse later and the plight of our dairy industry will be much greater.
The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North asked about the banks. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, one aspect of our economic strategy has been helpful to agriculture as a whole. Compared with the peak point of interest rates two years ago, the difference in cash flow, with interest rates as they are now, is about £350 million to agriculture, which is a substantial figure.
Mr. Winterton: Now deal with the dairy sector.
Mr. MacGregor: My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) and I have talked about these matters a great deal recently. I have only four minutes left in which to respond to all the other points that hon. Members have made.
Being aware of the problems that were coming up, we have been instructing ADAS to get itself into a position in
1308
which it could give advice on these issues to dairy producers, because the situations of individual dairy producers differ enormously.
My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton)—[Interruption.]—also spoke in the debate. I am sure that she and my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield see eye to eye on the matter to which I now come, which is one that she raised with me. She emphasised that the ultimate outcome must be fair and equitable to Britain, and I entirely agree with that, but I should explain about the United Kingdom quota.
The 97·2 million tonnes limit is the 1981 level of production, plus 1 per cent. That was the limit agreed by the Council some time ago. The Commission therefore insisted that that should be the basis for national quotas, which gives us broadly 16 per cent. As that was also the year in which the guarantee threshold was introduced, the implication was that from then on over-production would be penalised. Looked at in one way, the United Kingdom cutback from the 1983 levels is slightly higher than that for some countries, and my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton dealt with that in relation to France, although Germany and the Netherlands face bigger cutbacks.
This is a reflection of the fact that United Kingdom production has risen faster since 1981 than it has in those other countries. Had our national quota been based on the 1983 level, the difference would have been 0·18 per cent. I hope it is clear, therefore, that we have obtained a fair deal for the United Kingdom, because we have so many other things out of the milk deal that we were seeking.
There are many other matters with which I should have liked to deal, including the points raised by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Nicholson) and others, but I shall write to them. I fully understand that hon. Members in all parts of the House feel strongly about the beef and sheepmeat premium. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford that we have been arguing in the Council chamber all the points that he cogently put forward. I know, from being with my right hon. Friend, how hard he is fighting in an exceptionally difficult situation.
My right hon. Friend will have a most difficult task next week. We do not yet know what proposals and what procedures we will be facing. We do not know how the negotiations will develop and what the overall balance of any ultimate package, if we reach one, will be. am sure the House will understand that we have never revealed our negotiating position before negotiations take place. I can only say that we have left the Community in no doubt about the importance of the beef variable premium to the United Kingdom.
Turning quickly to one or two other points that were raised——
Mr. Geraint Howells rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
Question put accordingly, That this House do now adjourn:—
The House divided: Ayes 6, Noes 104.

Division No. 199]

[1.03 am

AYES

Body, Richard

Maclennan, Robert

Howells, Geraint

Nicholson, J.

1309

Penhaligon, David

Tellers for the Ayes:

Winterton, Mrs Ann

Mr. Nicholas Winterton and Mr. Charles Kennedy.

NOES

Amess, David

Neubert, Michael

Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

Norris, Steven

Baldry, Anthony

Onslow, Cranley

Bellingham, Henry

Page, John (Harrow W)

Berry, Sir Anthony

Page, Richard (Herts SW)

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Powley, John

Bottomley, Peter

Raffan, Keith

Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

Rathbone, Tim

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Rhodes James, Robert

Bright, Graham

Robinson, Mark (N'port W)

Brooke, Hon Peter

Roe, Mrs Marion

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)

Ryder, Richard

Burt, Alistair

Sackville, Hon Thomas

Butterfill, John

Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

Carlisle, John (N Luton)

Sayeed, Jonathan

Carttiss, Michael

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

Chope, Christopher

Shelton, William (Streatham)

Colvin, Michael

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Conway, Derek

Sims, Roger

Coombs, Simon

Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

Cope, John

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Dover, Den

Soames, Hon Nicholas

Emery, Sir Peter

Spencer, Derek

Eyre, Sir Reginald

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Forth, Eric

Steen, Anthony

Gale, Roger

Stern, Michael

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)

Goodlad, Alastair

Stevens, Martin (Fulham)

Hargreaves, Kenneth

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Stradling Thomas, J.

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Sumberg, David

Jackson, Robert

Taylor, John (Solihull)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Temple-Morris, Peter

Lang, Ian

Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

Lord, Michael

Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

McCurley, Mrs Anna

Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)

Macfarlane, Neil

Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)

MacGregor, John

Tracey, Richard

Maclean, David John.

Twinn, Dr Ian

McQuarrie, Albert

Wakeham, Rt Hon John

Major, John

Walden, George

Malins, Humfrey

Walker, Bill (T'side N)

Marland, Paul

Waller, Gary

Mates, Michael

Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

Mather, Carol

Watson, John

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Watts, John

Mayhew, Sir Patrick

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Wheeler, John

Miller, Hal (B'grove)

Whitfield, John

Mills, Iain (Meriden)

Wood, Timothy

Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)

Mitchell, David (NW Hants)

Tellers for the Noes:

Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

Mr. David Hunt and

Moynihan, Hon C.

Mr. Archie Hamilton.

Question accordingly negatived.

Public Servants (Harassment)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Neubert.]
1.18 am
Mr. John Page: I am grateful to the 104 hon. Members who have stayed here until quarter past one in the morning to ensure that I have the opportunity to raise this important matter on the Adjournment, but I doubt whether I shall be able to write to them all personally before the weekend. This is not usually my best time, as it is a little too long after dinner for an after-dinner speech, but I hope that many households will hear my remarks and the Minister's reply over breakfast later today.
The morning newspapers these days are often full of reports which make the reading public angry and upset. They refer to acts of harassment and attempted intimidation against those engaged in public duties. My right hon. Friend the Minister will forgive me for saying that I am not dealing especially with action against Ministers and Members of Parliament at public meetings, for whom a diet of verbal and actual rotten eggs has been the practice for many hundreds of years, but I strongly deprecate the efforts made by organised rent-a-crowds to stop Ministers and Members of Parliament from speaking and keeping public engagements as it is a denial of free speech and democracy.
I especially deprecate the involvement of the families of Ministers and Members of Parliament in campaigns of harassment. For that reason, I ask my right hon. Friend to make public any police reports that he has so that the extent of the problem can be assessed and a position taken to combat this new and growing menace to the traditional decency of British public life. First, I draw attention to some recent examples of harassment.
The most notorious recent case concerns the resignation of the inspector in the Archway inquiry, Air Marshal Sir Michael Giddings, a man with gallant war record and a successful peacetime record. He was forced to give up the position of inspector in the inquiry for the following reasons. The Times of 1 March reports:
"His wife … already sensitive after a two-month illness last year, has taken the brunt of a persistent and often offensive assault on their privacy.
It included opening a parcel of excreta sent to their home, taking telephone calls in the night which threatened violence, or were obscene, receiving 600 letters, disturbing trespassers in their garden, and having two deputations visit their home over Christmas …
The harassment, he says, was encouraged by objectors circulating his home address and telephone number. 'In the inquiry objectors have been hysterical at times, believing that the only way to stop the road is by stopping the inquiry. I actually regard most of this as pretty infantile, but the effect on a woman on her own is serious.'"
In a preview of my speech today which appeared in The Standard the facts about the Archway inquiry were mentioned and I received five telephone calls and messages from indignant members of a particular group of opponents to the Archway scheme, suggesting that I had slandered them. I did not do so, but I pointed out, as I do now, that some people did harass Sir Michael and his wife to the extent that he felt it necessary to resign his appointment. This emphasises the difficulty of pinning the blame on the real culprits.
Next I cite the case of an old friend of mine who is chairman of a district health authority in east London.

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Last September, at the end of a meeting which was discussing the future of a local hospital, the platform at Hackney town hall where the meeting was being held—which has, I am told, been declared a no-go area for the Metropolitan police by the Hackney council—was invaded and he was assaulted and taken by the throat by three hooligans. By a fortunate coincidence, the radio reporter who was by him happened to be the sports reporter and not the social security reporter, who would normally have been on duty. The sports reporter took a very robust attitude towards the thugs who were threatening and attacking my friend and beat them off, so that he was able to get away fairly unscathed. The meeting had to be adjourned and took place later under police protection.
It is a sad day when the meetings of a district hospital committee have to be held under police protection.
I will deal briefly with a few other cases.
A few years ago there was a major intimidation in a coroner's court after a tragic fire in which a number of people were killed. Another recent occasion was the assault and knocking to the ground of Mr. MacGregor, chairman of the National Coal Board. Again, this was an act of unacceptable violence. Another occasion, to which I made a glancing reference earlier, was the daubing of the house of a Home Office Minister with red paint and other matters and the harassment of the young wife of that Minister, who is about to have a baby.
It makes one feel sick that such things can happen in a civilised country such as ours.
Finally, another group of animal rights activists has actually claimed to have sent five fire bombs through the post in order to intimidate certain people over the culling of seals.
Where does all this start and what can we do to deal with it? First, I believe that television is a very influential medium, and a news flash on television can be seen by literally millions of people. So groups which wish to make themselves known to the public like to think up an incident which will get them before the cameras. The easiest way to get this sort of attention is by the use of violence. I contend that a number of pressure groups of ordinary people dedicated to a cause start to flirt with violence in order to get publicity, and by so doing attract to themselves some revolutionary elements who want to join any operation which they feel could destabilise society and destroy our institutions. These experts in turmoil very often come from the far left, and I would like to quote evidence from the Sunday Express edition of 4 March. It is headed
"Be a pest and a liar to win, says Red Ken"
and it goes on:
"A programme of harassment and intimidation designed to 'put the fear of God' into Tory MPs and councillors has been recommended to local Labour parties by Mr. Ken Livingstone, left-wing leader of the GLC.
His astonishing call comes as political worries are growing over the way the far left and protest groups are using personal abuse, intimidation and the threat of violence to further their cause."
I blame Mr. Livingstone and people to the far Left of him for many of the troubles that we are discussing tonight, and from which the country is suffering.
I have presented just some of the information that I have gleaned about harassment, and I shall be most interested to hear the view of my right hon. Friend the Minister. I hope that he can give the House more detailed information than I can.
1312
I want to discuss what we should be doing about all this. I want to make some initial suggestion, although I am hoping that as a result of this debate other lines of thought and action may emerge. Where public inquiries or meetings of statutory bodies take place, if the inspector or chairman finds that public behaviour is quite unmanageable, and that proper conduct of the meeting is impossible, he should adjourn the meeting and ask the responsible Minister to order that future meetings should be held in private. That would be a strong disincentive to those who feel that a great row acts in their interests. It might make them desist from taking such action.
Secondly, in any statement by the responsible Minister—who, in such an issue, is usually the Home Secretary—it should be made clear that when there is personal harassment and intimidation of a person conducting art inquiry or carrying out a statutory duty, the individuals and organisations concerned will be considered specifically to have damaged that case.
The representations made to me about the Archway case show that it may not always be easy to identify those using illegal or unlawful means to express their views. However, protestors would take a great deal more care and not risk their case by chancing the use of improper means of harassment and intimidation if my two initial suggestions were taken into consideration.
I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me the opportunity of this Adjournment debate at this late hour. I shall listen with the greatest interest to what my right hon. Friend the Minister has to say.
1.28 am
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Douglas Hurd): The House is grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Page) for giving us the opportunity to debate briefly a very important matter. I congratulate him on the statesmanlike way in which he introduced the subject. I entirely agree with his basic points. It is completely unacceptable for attempts to be made to interfere with or side-step the normal democratic processes of this country by the intimidation or harassment of those charged with carrying out often difficult duties on behalf of us all.
There are plenty of opportunities in a free country such as ours to express disagreement. We all enjoy coping with fair, vigorous criticism. If we did not, we would have no business being here. But that is quite different from the sort of intimidation and bullying—sometimes extended to the families of those concerned—of which we are now seeing many examples.
As there are no precise figures, it is hard to be sure, but I fear that my hon. Friend is right in saying that there is more intimidation and harassment than there used to be. He referred to the sad resignation of Sir Michael Giddings. Sir Michael and his family were subjectd to many forms of harassment, including abusive telephone calls and letters, trespassers in their garden, the breaking of windows, and so on. We deeply deplore the attacks endured by Sir Michael and his family. We have no intention of allowing such tactics to win the day, and a new inquiry with a new inspector will be set up as soon as possible
It is natural that the problems over the Archway inquiry should lead to a more general concern over the powers

1313
connected with good order at such inquiries. One good result of this debate would be to describe those powers more clearly so that all concerned knew what they are.
Where there is a threat of a breach of the peace, the police may attend. Up to 20 police officers attended the five sittings of the Archway inquiry in January to maintain order in and around the building. On two occasions the inspector asked the police to help in removing disruptors, and the police did so. It is an offence under section 1 of the Public Meeting Act 1908 to act in a disorderly manner at a public meeting, and there is a power of arrest in cases where a disruptor—who could be removed anyway—refuses to give his name and address.
Under section 5 of the Public Order Act 1936 it is an offence to use threatening or insulting words or behaviour at a public meeting with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or which is likely to provoke a breach of the peace. The maximum penalties for those offences are a fine of £1,000 or six months imprisonment.
Those powers, which may not be as widely known as they should be, should be adequate. However, I would like to consider any cases of apparent difficulty which my hon. Friend or other hon. Members may want to refer to me. We must ensure that the law and its procedures are effective to deal with disruptive tactics.
Mr. Page: Could my hon. Friend tell me again what the £1,000 fine or the six months imprisonment was for?
Mr. Hurd: The offence under the Public Order Act 1936 is to use threatening or insulting words or behaviour at a public meeting with intent to provoke a breach of the peace, or which is likely to provoke a breach of the peace.
My right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Chancellor, by coincidence, explained yesterday in another place that he will ensure that the new Archway inspector is made fully aware of his powers under both those Acts, that the meetings are properly stewarded and that the police are alerted to the possibility of disorder.
So much for the powers at the point of the inquiry. Harassment away from the site of an inquiry is also covered by provisions of the criminal law. The forms of harassment of which we have heard could involve assault and criminal damage—serious offences for which Parliament has declared potentially heavy penalties—and the police will not hesitate to provide all necessary help to prevent and detect such offences.
My hon. Friend has listed some cases that have come to his attention. Politicians must learn to be reasonably robust about such matters, and, traditionally, we have been. The harassment of families is, however, a different matter, and I share my hon. Friend's views about it. Sometimes, too, people who are not so much in the public eye as politicians may become Involved in a wholly unfair way. I am aware of the case involving the chairman of the health authority. There have been other cases, and I join my hon. Friend in deploring what was done. On at least four occasions during the past year, members of health authorities have suffered harassment.
In the past few years, there have been cases also of possible harassment of coroners' juries, and I add that to the catalogue given by my hon. Friend. In 1980, a juror at an inquest reported harassment to the police. In 1981, at the Deptford fire victims inquest jurors were faced by demonstrators outside the building who had placards
1314
threatening to burn down the jurors' houses. In a more recent case, the jurors made it clear that they might become subjected to harassment and violence.
What is important in all those cases is not the rights and wrongs of the issues but the fact that those employing those tactics have chosen to abandon the argument about the issues in favour of coercion. Once we have established that there is a problem, the questions are what can be done to deter people from resorting to that type of behaviour, how we can protect those who might be at risk and punish those who, despite the deterrent, resort to that behaviour.
The harassment of public figures can take many forms. I am sure that my hon. Friend accepts that it is not always easy to prevent such things happening. In some cases, individuals will decide not to report those matters to the police. They may be reluctant to make a fuss and to put the police to trouble. They may fear further harassment if it becomes known that they have contacted the police. A good many of those incidents occur where the police are, understandably, not usually present. Unless the police are called immediately to the scene, it may be difficult to prove that particular individuals were responsible for the disruption or that they committed criminal offences. The police can do a good deal, once they have been involved.
It is important that individuals, who fear that they may become involved in danger because of their public duties, realise the abilities of the police to help. The police could do their best to trace those who might have committed criminal offences and offer advice to a person who is the subject of harassment. Patrols near premises can discourage those who might intend to trespass or commit damage. The police might consider it valuable for a person to obtain a number of physical security measures. If a person is subjected to many unpleasant telephone calls, the police may suggest that the telephone number be changed or that efforts be made to identify the source of the calls. Arrangements can be made to redirect offensive mail and possibly to identify the sender.
The measures which the police can take and the advice they can offer to potential victims of harassment will work only if the police are informed immediately that there is a danger of such tactics being used. I urge anyone who becomes aware of any of these dangers to let the police know at once. It is easy—the Home Office is familiar with this problem—to complain about ineffective police action after the event when insufficient has been done to tell the police what was happening before or during the event. The police must, therefore, rely on law-abiding citizens to alert them to any harassment if this phenomenon is to be checked.
My hon. Friend made two interesting suggestions. He asked whether it would be possible for public inquiries to be held in camera in the event of disruption. Strictly, that is a matter not for me, but for the Departments responsible for planning and highway inquiries. A former Member for Salisbury, Mr. Michael Hamilton, introduced a private Member's Bill which passed into law and is now the Planning Inquiries (Attendance of Public) Act 1982. That legislation requires that all evidence given at planning inquiries shall be heard in public. It would be hard to go against that recent legislation. There are exceptions where the national interest or national security is involved, and those exceptions would be a matter for decision by a Minister.
Mr. Hamilton's Act does not apply to highways inquiries. The Department of Transport is reluctant to hold

1315
highways inquiries in camera, and believes that, if the powers that I have mentioned are properly used, this should not be necessary. I think this point applies to my hon. Friend's suggestion. The point of such inquiries is partly that the right decision should be come to after an independent inspector has listened to the evidence, but it is also that all those concerned should be able to feel at the end of the day that, even if their point of view has not prevailed, they have had a chance to put it.
The difficulty about my hon. Friend's line of thought, although I entirely understand why he puts it forward, is that one would to some extent frustrate, not the first, but the second, of those purposes. I shall draw to the attention of my right hon. Friend who deals with the inquiries the suggestions made by my hon. Friend.
Intimidation of the kind that has been described during the debate will not persuade the Government to change their policies or the procedure by which decisions are taken in this country. I suspect that my hon. Friend is right that usually what is going on is a search for publicity. This the media must weigh carefully when they decide how to report these activities. I think it is a short-sighted approach by those who take it, because no right-minded citizen will be persuaded to align himself with a cause which relies on intimidation for its expression.
1316
Therefore, it is probably true to say that such bullying tactics are the sign of a weak, or a lost, cause. They are adopted by people—and this is the worrying thing about them—who have a contempt for the opinions of others which can legitimately be called Fascist, a word that is tossed about far too widely but which I think accurately pinpoints the state of mind that we are considering here. Indeed, some of the incidents to which my hon. Friend referred, and others that have come to my notice, remind me strongly of what one reads of the tactics of the Nazis in pre-war Germany. Such tactics have no place in a democratic society.
As to the Home Office, the responsibility of my right hon. and learned Friend, I assure my hon. Friend that the police, who have an important part in checking abuses of this kind, have our full and continuing support in taking steps to deal with those who commit criminal offences and to protect people from these deplorable attacks on their privacy and occasionally on their person.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at seventeen minutes to Two o' clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Derby.

Royal Assent
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Act:
Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act.

Road Deaths and Alcohol
Viscount Mersey: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many road accident deaths in 1983 involved drivers who had consumed more than the legal limit of alcohol.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, data on the blood alcohol level of road accident fatalities are obtained from procurators fiscal and most coroners. Estimates indicate that about 185 motor cycle riders and 415 other motor vehicle drivers killed in 1983 were over the legal limit. Three hundred and ten other accidents in which a rider or a driver not fatally injured failed an initial breath test or failed to provide a required sample caused around 340 other fatalities.
Viscount Mersey: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that full reply. I hope he would agree with me that 600 deaths is 600 too many, and I wonder whether he might consider adopting some tougher penalty system such as in Norway, where they simply have a mandatory three weeks in prison for offenders.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, the current penalties for attempting to drive when unfit to drive through drink or drugs have a maximum of six months imprisonment and/or a £1,000 fine and an obligatory disqualification for a minimum of one year, or three years if a second offence is committed within 10 years of a previous offence, and it is generally thought that that is an adequate level.
Baroness Faithfull: My Lords, would the Minister not agree that our prisons are quite full enough as they are, and that, if there must be some custodial care, that perhaps it might be at attendance centres at weekends?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend and I shall draw the attention of my right honourable friend to her comments.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, although I share the general concern of the Minister at drink and driving offences, may I ask whether he would agree that there must be public confidence in the breath measuring instruments? In the light of disclosures in one national newspaper, do the Government propose to make any statement about them in order to restore public confidence? Is this not the opportunity to reconsider the Government's attitude on the alternative option of blood or urine?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, while I recognise the noble Lord's concern in these matters, I think he would probably agree that his question is perhaps a little wide of the original one on the Order Paper.
Lord Coleraine: My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend is able to give similarly illuminating information about pedestrians who are involved in road accidents where death occurs and are found to be inebriated?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, there has not been a sustained research programme on pedestrians, but that which has been undertaken over recent years suggests that pedestrians with an element of alcohol in their blood over the excess limit as prescribed by law contribute not insignificantly to some fatal road accidents.
Lord Monson: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a body of medical opinion which believes that a great number of road accidents are caused by people driving under the influence of legally prescribed drugs, particularly tranquillisers, which of course are being taken by several million people in this country at any given moment, and also anti-histamines and so on, none of which is detectable by any known breathaliser? Can the noble Lord say how seriously his department regards these assertions?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, in the event of an alleged offender coming before the court, it would be for the court to decide whether such a claim has any germane effect upon the offence for which he has been apprehended.
Lord Whaddon: My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind the increasing public concern that diplomats are able to refuse testing for alcohol levels? Can he say how far the Government have got in their efforts to reach international agreement to close this disgusting loophole?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Elton answered this question some months ago. Where a diplomat claiming immunity is alleged to be guilty of this offence or where in fact he takes a test which is found to be over the limit, the mission is advised and it is left for the mission to take what steps it feels desirable. I can tell the noble Lord that in the past 18 months nine members of overseas missions have, in fact, left the missions as a result of representations made by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the heads of those missions.
Viscount St. Davids: My Lords, will the noble Lord consider, when it comes to the question of legalising any drugs at all, not merely whether those drugs are in themselves harmful, but whether they are not extremely dangerous if they are used by anybody who then has to do anything as complicated as driving a car?
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I am quite sure the noble Viscount is correct in that; nevertheless perhaps it would be helpful if I reminded your Lordships that in 1982, of 57,000 convictions for excess levels of alcohol in blood, over 31,000 had an excess over 150 milligrammes per millilitre, which is something like one and a half times the minimum limit. This is a very serious position.

Archway Inquiry: Procedure
3.15 p.m.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to make any changes in procedure or to recommend an amendment of the law following the disturbances at the Archway Road inquiry and other public inquiries, and the harassment of the inspectors concerned.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, it is clear that what has happened in connection with the Archway inquiries, and, in particular, the events which led to the resignation of the last inspector, is quite intolerable and should not be permitted to happen again if it is at all possible to prevent it. I divide my Answer into two parts: first, what it is possible to do to prevent the next inspector suffering from the kind of harassment and persecution which led to the last inspector's resignation; and, secondly, what it is possible to do to prevent disruption at the inquiry itself.
When the next inspector is appointed, I propose to make sure that he is aware of the facilities available to him for monitoring incoming calls to his telephone and sifting his mail, and for the protection of his residence with adequate police presence, and I shall alert my relevant colleagues as to my actions on this. Secondly, I shall also seek to ensure that the inspector is made fully aware of his powers under the Public Meeting Act 1908, and of the provisions of the Public Order Act 1936, and that the meeting is properly stewarded and the police alerted to the possibility of disorder.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that Answer. Would he not agree with me that one of the disturbing elements of this situation is that the Archway Road episode is by no means an isolated instance? That being so, does he feel that at some stage in the future, when the law on the matter is being reviewed, it would be appropriate to see whether any possible clarification of the law is necessary?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I agree that this is not a totally isolated incident. My own belief is that some minor clarifications in the law might be desirable and I have discussed this with relevant colleagues. I do not think that I have anything much further to say at the moment, but my general conviction is that this is a question of administrative and preventive action rather than of a defect in law.
The House might be interested to hear what is the existing law. Under Section 1 of the Public Meeting Act 1908 it is an offence to act in a disorderly manner at a public meeting. There is a power of arrest where a disrupter refuses to give his name and address. Under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1936 it is also an offence to use threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour at a public meeting with intent to provoke a breach of the peace, or which are likely to occasion a breach of the peace.
Lord Broxbourne: My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that owing to my not unexpected lack of success in yesterday's ballot, the House will not have the opportunity of discussing this important matter in depth on llth April? Nevertheless, will my noble and learned friend continue to give urgent consideration to this important matter, and, in addition to looking at the statute law of a general nature (to which he was good enough to refer), will he refresh his memory on the content of the Inquiries Procedure Rules 1974, which specifically govern this matter? Will he consider the rules, since he may find that they are rather sketchy in some respects, with a view to their amendment and addition, so as to provide better machinery for the conduct of these inquiries and to ease the task of those presiding over them?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I share, and I am sure the House will share, my noble friend's disappointment at having been unsuccessful in the ballot. He has wide experience of these inquiries. I shall certainly refresh my memory about the rules and pass on what he said to the relevant colleague who will be more immediately responsible.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, in the review of this question, which has caused such grave disquiet generally, and certainly in this House, will the noble and learned Lord with his colleagues consider the possibility (albeit with the difficulty of a lay inspector presiding over the tribunal) of incorporating such tribunals among those where contempt of court would be a relevant matter?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, as a matter of fact I have thought rather deeply about this. Under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921 one can set up an inquiry which attracts some of the contempt provisions, but that requires a resolution of each House of Parliament and therefore would not normally be appropriate to inquiries of this kind; but they could be in theory invoked. It so happens that I was sitting judicially in the Privy Council some months ago when we had to consider the situation of an inquiry of a somewhat different kind in one of the dependencies which still has appeals to the Privy

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Council. We decided then that the law of contempt was not something appropriate for something other than a court of law unless there was special statutory provision to that effect.
I am not trying to dogmatise about this. As the noble Lord will remember, we introduced comparatively recently into the magistrates' procedure the law of contempt for misbehaviour in the face of the court. I am not therefore excluding this a priori, but my own belief after thinking about it has been that you do not want to extend the law of contempt beyond what is necessary and that the matter really is a question of enforcement, which means an adequate police presence, adquate stewarding and the enforcement of the existing legislation, rather than the addition to the criminal code of a special contempt provision in relation to an ordinary road inquiry.
Lord Wigoder: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord not agree that both at Archway Road and at an associated inquiry at the North Circular Road there was a deliberate and systematically organised campaign which was intended to negate the whole democratic process? Would the noble and learned Lord not also agree that in fact that sort of behaviour is very difficult to bring within the terms either of the common law or of the statute law such as the noble and learned Lord has described it? In particular, is there not considerable doubt as to whether it is for the police or for the inspector to initiate proceedings? In those circumstances is there not a very strong case to be made for clarifying and strengthening the criminal law to prevent these outrages from continuing?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I have not studied the history of these inquiries in any detail, but from what I hear there is every reason to believe that what the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, says about the past inquiries is correct. I myself rather question whether it is a matter of clarifying the law. The inspector has certain rights and I shall try to take steps to see that he is adequately briefed as to his rights about it. The police are naturally reluctant to interfere unless they are called upon, but if they are in the neighbourhood the inspector has rights to summon assistance; and if the inquiry is properly stewarded—which can be, and usually is, arranged—it is possible to summon them. I believe that in fact in the recent inquiry which gave rise to this Question the police were sent for and at the instance of the inspector persons were removed successfully by the police.
Lord Renton: My Lords, should not inspectors have power to award costs against any party whose troublesome behaviour causes the inquiry to be unnecessarily prolonged or the police to be called in?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I shall certainly draw that to the attention of my colleagues. I can see difficulties about giving costs against a person who is not a lawfully-present objector to the scheme which is being inquired into. An order for costs against a non-party to the proceedings would, I think, give rise to difficulty, but I take note of what my noble friend has said.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, is not the fact that the inspector who will be conducting the inquiry on its resumption is to be given advance notice that he can have his telephone monitored and that he can have special police surveillance not very reassuring? And does that not indicate the necessity of a strengthening of the criminal law in this field?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, but I should have thought not. Obviously, the next inspector will have to be somebody who is aware of the past history and the fact that he has to be told of these rights indicates that he has to exercise his existing rights. You do not necessarily create greater order by passing a new law but you do create better order by enforcing rights and obligations which already exist.
Lord Hale: My Lords, may I remind the noble and learned Lord—
Noble Lords: Order!
Lord Hale: My Lords, I do not know why it is wrong to remind the noble and learned Lord. I was only going to say, on something that I know something about, that the noble and learned Lord did refer to the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act. I have had the misfortune to appear before three such. May I beg the noble and learned Lord never again to permit the introduction of a wide system of interrogation of suspected persons ruled by no laws, ruled by no former practice, where the accused person may not know until he goes into the witness box what is going to be put to him at large.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am duly reminded but I think that we are in danger of straying rather far from the original Question.

Hearing Aids: Delay
3.25 p.m.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take in response to the Royal National Institute for the Deaf s report that for many thousands of deaf people there is a delay of up to 2½ years before NHS hearing aids can be prescribed.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Glenarthur): My Lords, long delays did indeed build up in some districts following the peak in demand when new, high-powered hearing aids were introduced in 1980 and 1981. Although the longest waiting time recorded in the report for any part of the United Kingdom was 2½ years, the average time in most regions was less than four months. I am glad to say that that position has been improving, and we expect it to continue to improve.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, clearly the House will welcome any good news that it is given, but would the noble Lord not agree that the Royal National Institute for the Deaf is a highly reputable body, that its report has just come out and that in its report it uses such terms as "chaotic and inefficient"? For an organisation which is certainly not prone to sensationalism or exaggeration to list seven regions in which the delay period is more than two years surely indicates that there is more action needed to be taken by the department.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, the shortages which have occurred have been, as I have said, for the higher-powered hearing aids. These aids proved to be very popular, demand for them was higher than expected, and delays have occurred, as I said. The fact is that to some extent we were the victim of our own success in improving considerably the range of devices available under the National Health Service. As soon as we became aware of the problems, estimates were revised and additional funds were made available. The report of the Royal National Institute for the Deaf acknowledges that there was already evidence of improvement when the survey was undertaken. Indications are that supplies are now adequate to meet the current demand.
Lord Harvington: My Lords, I am sure that the House will be pleased to hear what my noble friend has said. Perhaps the difference expressed this afternoon could be resolved between the noble Lord the Minister and the Royal National Institute for the Deaf so that there may not be any misunderstanding between the Ministry and the Institute. Would he also accept from me that I know that his Ministry is doing great work in this matter and doing everything possible to speed up research in order to make these hearing aids much more efficient than they are now?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the second part of his supplementary question. So far as the first part is concerned, my right honourable friend the Minister for the Disabled has already responded to the report referred to in the Question.
Lord Kilmarnock: My Lords, is it not the case that patients often have to wait a long time to see an ENT consultant, only to be sent straight to the hearing aid department? Would it not be a good idea if the department encouraged the health authorities in the direction of direct referral by GPs to the hearing aid department?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, direct referral by general practitioners does operate in some places. It is always done under the general authority of a consultant, who remains responsible for the course of diagnosis and treatment and who alone can prescribe the hearing aid.
Lord Winstanley: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to give an assurance that the Government have
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no intention of privatising the provision of hearing aids and of phasing out the present arrangements whereby hearing aids are supplied free of charge through the hearing aid centres so very satisfactorily at the moment?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I know of no such plans.
Baroness Vickers: My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister say whether there are about 10 million people with hearing defects, and confirm that that wonderful woman, Helen Keller, stated that blindness cuts you off from things but deafness cuts you off from people? Would he agree that we really do want people to be able to play their part naturally? Therefore, may I ask him, as the population is getting older, whether this matter can be speeded up?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I am sure that what my noble friend says is correct as far as Miss Keller is concerned. The delays have largely been removed, and increased resources have been made available. Communication with hearing aid centres has been improved, and most patients receive their hearing aids in only a few weeks.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the problem arises from the distribution of consultants? There might be a number of specialists in one area and only half that number in another area, so that inevitably, as the Minister has already said, the waiting periods will vary. The remarkable thing is that this tremendous and wonderful work is being done—
A noble Lord: Speech!
Lord Molloy: Therefore, my Lords, would the Minister not agree that, if this situation could be examined, the tremendously good work now being carried out could be enhanced by a better distribution of the consultants?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I can tell the noble Lord that the number of ENT consultants increased from 336 in 1979 to 355 in 1983.
Lord Leatherland: My Lords, would the Minister not agree that on some occasions it is an advantage not to hear what other people are saying?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I would entirely agree with the noble Lord.
Baroness Lane-Fox: My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that since 1981 grants totalling £220,000 have been made towards a sympathetic hearing scheme, and that I am told that these grants have been greatly appreciated? One hopes that this may possibly help to reduce delays.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I am delighted to hear what my noble friend says.

U.S. Ballistic Missile Defences: ABM Treaty
3.33 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the ballistic missile defence system now proposed by the United States would breach the ABM Treaty of 1972 between the Soviet Union and the United States; whether they have been consulted by the United States Government on this matter; and what is their knowledge of American intentions.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young): My Lords, the United States are conducting long-term research into defences against ballistic missiles. This is permitted under the ABM Treaty, to which the United States Administration has expressed its continuing commitment. The Americans are consulting us closely.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that Answer, but would she not agree that Article 5 of the treaty provides that each party undertakes not to develop, test or deploy ABM systems or components which are air based, sea based, space based, or mobile land based? Is she entirely satisfied that the Americans are not breaching this article in the treaty?
Baroness Young: My Lords, the United States programme is limited to research. The Soviet Union already has a long-established programme of research in this field, and neither party to the treaty has signalled any intention of abrogating it.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that most thinking people are very happy to see the development of defensive measures against missile attack and that one would expect this, particularly in the case of those who are very much concerned about nuclear holocausts?
Baroness Young: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his question.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that rapid progress is now being made by both the Russians and the Americans in anti-ballistic missile technology? At what point will this advance lead the Government to reconsider their support for the Trident project?
Baroness Young: My Lords, there is no reason to alter our strong commitment to the independent strategic deterrent. The United States is well aware of the importance that we attach to our own independent deterrent.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that rather than conduct research into how to break a treaty, the super powers would be better advised to meet and discuss another treaty which would bind them not to conduct research into how to
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break an existing treaty? Can the Government give us any news about what pressure they are bringing to bear on the United States and the Soviet Union to resume disarmament negotations?
Baroness Young: My Lords, at the conference on disarmament in Geneva we are actively seeking agreement for the setting up of a working group to examine all the issues involved in arms control in outer space, including treaty arrangements.
Lord Bishopston: My Lords, will the noble Baroness the Minister say what form the consultations between ourselves and the United States take? Is it really a matter of being told what they have in mind, rather than having earlier consultation? Also, though one recognises the importance of adequate defence, are there other treaties which may be breached, such as the non-proliferation treaty and other agreements of that kind?
Baroness Young: My Lords, in answer to the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, we are happy with the way the consultations are going, and the issues involved are being fully discussed. I think he will recognise from the Answer that I gave to the original Question that we do not accept that the treaty is being abrogated.

Business
Lord Denham: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that the Report stage of the Housing and Building Control Bill will be adjourned at approximately 7 p.m. for a short period and that during this adjournment the Report stage of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Amendment (No. 2) Bill will be taken.
The Easter Recess
Lord Denham: My Lords, it may also be for the convenience of your Lordships if I announce that, subject to the progress of business—and I must in parenthesis emphasise that this is not merely a figure of speech—the House will adjourn for the Easter Recess on Thursday, 12th April, and return on Wednesday, 25th April.

Housing and Building Control Bill
3.37 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 2 [Variation of circumstances in which right does not arise]:
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin) moved Amendment No. 1A:
Page 2, line 22, at beginning insert ("Subsection (5) of section 2 of the 1980 Act (exceptions to the right to buy) shall be omitted and").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with Amendment No. IA I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 1B, 1, 2, 3, 3A, 38 to 43, 47 and 48, 52, 148, 149 and 160.
Amendment No. 1B: Page 2, line 23, leave out ("the 1980") and insert ("that").

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Amendment No. 1: Page 2, line 25, after ("dwelling-house") insert ("either").
Amendment No. 2: Page 2, line 27, leave out ("and") and insert ("or is situated in a cemetery and (in either case)").
Amendment No. 3: Page 3, line 6, after ("council") insert—("() the governors of an aided school:").
Amendment No. 3A: Page 4, line 30, leave out ("amendment") and insert ("amendments").
Amendment No. 38: After Clause 23, insert the following new clause:
("Consent to certain voluntary disposals.
.—(1) Except with the consent of the Secretary of State, a local authority shall not dispose of a dwelling-house to which this section applies otherwise than in pursuance of Chapter I of Part I of the 1980 Act or this Part of this Act.
(2) A dwelling-house is one to which this section applies if—

(a) it is let on a secure tenancy; or

(b) a lease of it has been granted in pursuance of Chapter I of Part I of the 1980 Act or this Part of this Act,

unless (in either case) it has been acquired or appropriated by the local authority for the purposes of Part V of the 1957 Act.
(3) A consent under this section may be given either generally to all local authorities or to any particular local authority or description of authority and either generally in relation to all dwelling-houses to which this section applies or in relation to any particular dwelling-house or description of dwelling-house to which this section applies.
(4) Any such consent may be given subject to such conditions as the Secretary of State sees fit to impose.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, any such consent may he given subject to conditions as to the price, premium or rent to be obtained on a disposal of a dwelling-house to which this section applies, including conditions as to the amount by which, on a disposal of such a dwelling-house by way of sale or by the grant or assignment of a lease at a premium, the price or premium is to be, or may be, discounted by the local authority.
(6) Section 26(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1959 (power of local authorities etc. to dispose of land without consent) shall not apply to any disposal which requires a consent under this section.
(7) If—

(a) a local authority dispose of a dwelling-house to which this section applies; and

(b) the disposal is one which requires a consent under this section but is made without such a consent,

then, unless the disposal is to an individual (or to two or more individuals) and does not extend to any other dwelling-house to which this section applies, it shall be void and section 128(2) of the Local Government Act 1972 or, as the case may be, section 29 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1959 (protection of purchasers) shall not apply.
(8) For the purposes of this section the grant of an option to purchase the freehold of, or any other interest in, a dwelling-house to which this section applies is a disposal and any consent given under this section to such a disposal extends to any disposal made in pursuance of the option.
(9) In this section "local authority" has the same meaning as in section 21 above".).
Amendment No. 39: Page 26, line 31, leave out ("ground") and insert ("grounds").
Amendment No. 40: Page 26, line 42, at end insert—
("Ground 5B
The dwelling-house forms part of, or is within the curtilage of, a building to which sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 1 of Part I of Schedule I to this Act applies and—

(a) the dwelling-house was let to the tenant or a predecessor in title of his in consequence of the tenant or predecessor being in the employment of the landlord or of a body specified in sub-paragraph (3) of that paragraph; and

(b) the tenant or any person residing in the dwelling-house has been guilty of conduct such that, having regard to the purpose for which the building is used, it would not be right for him to continue in occupation of the dwelling-house.").

Amendment No. 41: Page 27, line 7, after ("dwelling-house") insert ("either").
Amendment No. 42:
Page 27, line 9, leave out ("and") and insert ("or is situated in a cemetery and (in either case)").
Amendment No. 43: Page 27, line 16, at end insert ("and")
Amendment No. 47: Before Clause 29, insert the following new clause:
("Power to extend right to buy etc.
.—(1) The Secretary of State may by order provide that, in cases falling within subsection (2) below, Part I of the 1980 Act and this Part of this Act shall have effect with such modifications as are specified in the order.
(2) The cases referred to in subsection (1) above are cases where there are in a dwelling-house let on a secure tenancy one or more interests to which this subsection applies; and this sub-section applies to any interest which—

(a) is held by a body mentioned in section 19(3) above; and

(b) is immediately superior to the interest of the landlord or to another interest to which this subsection applies.

(3) An order under this section may make different provision with respect to different cases or descriptions of case and may contain such consequential, supplementary or transitional provisions as appear to the Secretary of State to be necessary or expedient.
(4) The power to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.").
Amendment No. 48: Insert the following new clause:
("Dwelling-houses on public trust land.
Where a dwelling-house let on a secure tenancy is land held—

(a) for the purposes of section 164 of the Public Health Act 1875 (pleasure grounds); or

(b) in accordance with section 10 of the Open Spaces Act 1906 (duty of local authority to maintain open spaces and burial grounds),

then, for the purpose of Chapter I of Part I of the 1980 Act and this Part of this Act, the dwelling-house shall be deemed to be freed from any trust arising solely by virtue of its being land held in trust for enjoyment by the public in accordance with the said section 164 or, as the case may be, the said section 10.").
Amendment No. 52: Page 35, leave out lines 30 to 43 and insert—
(" "2A. A tenancy is not a secure tenancy if the tenant is a member of a police force and the dwelling-house is provided for him free of rent and rates in pursuance of regulations made under section 33 of the Police Act 1964.
2B.—(1) A tenancy is not a secure tenancy if the tenant is an employee of a fire authority and—

(a) his contract of employment requires him to live in close proximity to a particular fire station; and

(b) the dwelling-house was let to him by the authority in consequence of that requirement.

(2) In this paragraph "contract of employment" has the same meaning as in paragraph 2 above and "fire authority" means a fire authority for the purposes of the Fire Services Acts 1947 to 1959.
2C.—(1) A tenancy is not a secure tenancy until the periods to be taken into account for the purposes of this paragraph amount in aggregate to more than three years if—

(a) within the period of three years immediately preceding the grant the conditions mentioned in paragraph 2, 2A or 2B above have been satisfied with respect to a tenancy of the dwelling-house; and

(b) before the grant of the tenancy the landlord notified the tenant in writing of the circumstances in which this exception applies and that in its opinion the proposed tenancy would fall within this exception.

(2) A period is to be taken into account for the purposes of this paragraph unless it is a period during which the conditions mentioned in paragraph 2, 2A or 2B above are satisfied with respect to the tenancy."
(3) In paragraph 6 of that Schedule after the words "the district or London borough", in the second and third places where they occur, there shall be inserted the words "or its surrounding area" and at the end of that paragraph there shall be added the words—
"In this paragraph 'surrounding area', in relation to a district or London borough, means the area which consists of each district or London borough that adjoins it."
(4) The paragraph inserted in Schedule 3 to the 1980 Act as paragraph 2C does not apply to a tenancy granted before the commencement date unless, immediately before that date, the interest of the landlord belongs to a county council.
(5) That paragraph and paragraphs 6 and 11 of that Schedule shall have effect in relation to a tenancy granted before the commencement date and in the case of which, immediately before that date, the interest of the landlord belongs to a county council as if for the words "before the grant of the tenancy" there

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were subsituted the words "before the end of the period of three months beginning with the commencement of Part I of the 1984 Act".").
Amendment No. 148: Page 95, line 44, at end insert—
("21A. In section 50(1) of that Act (interpretation of Chapter II of Part I) immediately before the definition of "development corporation" there shall be inserted the following definition—
"'cemetery' has the same meaning as in section 214 of the Local Government Act 1972;".").
Amendment No. 149: Page 96, line 7, at end insert—
("23A. In section 137(1) of that Act (avoidance of certain unauthorised disposals) after the words "section 128(2) of the Local Government Act 1972" there shall be inserted the words", section 29 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1959".").
Amendment No. 160: Page 98, leave out lines 55 and 56 and insert—
("1. The repeal of subsection (5) of section 2 of the Housing Act 1980 has effect subject to section 2(5) of this Act.
2. The repeal of subsections (5) to (11) of section 7 of that Act has effect subject to section 3(6) of this Act.").
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, before the noble Lord proceeds, is he right in grouping together so many amendments? Do not they fall into two quite separate categories; that is to say, those relating to the right to buy and those relating to security of tenure, which are dealt with in different chapters of the 1980 Act, which is the Act which is being amended?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I felt that it was for the convenience of the House for the amendments to be taken together in that they are all linked and they relate to the Government proposals to extend the right to buy to certain county council tenancies. If your Lordships feel that you would prefer me not to deal with them in this way, then of course I shall be quite happy to deal with them as your Lordships would wish.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I assume that because there are so many amendments in one group—I appreciate the question as to whether there should be two groups—the Minister will in fact take extraordinary care to deal with all the amendments not too briefly but not too lengthily, while at the same time giving us a good explanation.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I will try to deal not too shortly with this matter, but not be too long; and I hope to give a proper explanation. As I have said, these amendments relate to the proposals to extend the right to buy to certain county council tenancies—broadly those that are not being used for operational purposes—and the related proposals to modify the provisions in the 1980 Act governing tenancies held other than under general powers. In earlier debates on these proposals, I said that we had consulted the local authority associations about their detail. I also undertook further to consider a number of points raised in Committee by noble Baronesses on both sides of the House, and by others of your Lordships. Most of those amendments are in response to comments and suggestions from the associations, and to points raised in Committee. Perhaps I may now speak to each of the amendments concerned. I take the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Graham. I begin by referring to Amendments Nos. 39 and 40.
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The provisions which we considered in Committee proposed the repeal of paragraph 3 of Schedule 3 to the 1980 Act—which excludes from security of tenure certain dwellings within the curtilege of education and social service buildings—and its replacement with a new exclusion from the right to buy. This new exclusion goes wider than paragraph 3, in that it applies to certain dwellings within the curtilege of any operational building. We have proposed in association with this change a new ground for possession which will enable landlords to gain possession of such dwellings when an employee/tenant resigns or retires, and when the dwelling is needed for letting to a new employee.
In speaking on these provisions in Committee, I said that we recognised that the landlord must also be in a position to gain possession if the tenant was guilty of behaviour which might prove a threat to the effective functioning of the building within which his home is situated. An additional new ground for possession is therefore proposed in Amendments Nos. 39 and 40. This will apply where any person residing in the dwelling has been guilty of conduct
"such that, having regard to the purpose for which the building is used, it would not be right for him to continue in occupation".
It will not be subject to the proviso that the tenant is provided with suitable alternative accommodation.
I now come to Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 41, 42 and 148. It has been argued that the exclusion from the right to buy of dwellings within the curtilege of operational buildings should be extended to exclude also any dwelling on operational land. The Government do not accept that it would be right to go so far as this in denying tenants the opportunity to buy. In proposing the "curtilege" exclusion, we are primarily concerned with the security of operational buildings, and in particular with the safety of children or other vulnerable groups which the building may be used to serve. Similar considerations will not usually arise where a dwelling or group of dwellings is sited in, say, open space or parkland. The general public will in any case normally have access to such areas. Where it is necessary and reasonable to control or limit the use of dwellings in such areas, the landlord will be in a position to do so through the imposition of suitable convenants and conditions of sale.
There is, however, one category of operational land which we accept should be treated in the same way as operational buildings. The purpose of Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 41, 42 and 148 is to add dwellings within cemeteries to the "curtilege" exclusion. Dwellings within cemeteries—and I must say that I was surprised to learn that there are a few such dwellings occupied other than on a strictly service tenancy basis—will therefore be excluded from the right to buy.
Amendment No. 3 adds the governors of voluntary aided schools to the definition of "employer" for the purpose of paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 to the 1980 Act, and for the purposes of the new "curtilege" provisions which we are proposing. This will mean that the various exceptions will apply in cases where the landlord is the local education authority, but the tenant is actually employed by an aided school. Where the aided school is itself the landlord, no difficulties arise; an aided school is not a relevant landlord for the

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purposes of the security of tenure and right to buy provisions.
Amendment No. 52 modifies the amendments previously proposed to Schedule 3 to the 1980 Act, which excluded certain tenancies from security of tenure. There are four points here. First, the exclusion of provided police housing is retained, but slightly reworded to make its intention clearer. Secondly, there is an additional new exclusion for certain fire authority housing—relevant in particular in the context of day-manning arrangements. Thirdly, amendments are proposed to paragraph 6 of Schedule 3 to the 1980 Act—which excludes from security of tenure certain temporary accommodation for persons moving to an area for employment reasons. This is currently limited to cases where the dwelling and work place are in the same district or London borough. It is to be widened to include also cases where the dwelling is in a district adjacent to that in which the work place is situated. Fourthly, the amendments propose certain transitional provisions relating to county council tenancies, which will be brought for the first time within the scope of Part 1 of the 1980 Act. Amendment No. 38 and—
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I wonder whether I may interrupt the Minister. I think that we all go along very much with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, said. My noble friend Lord Graham asked the Minister whether he would take the amendments separately. My noble friend Lady Fisher indicated to me earlier that she wanted to raise a point on this amendment. If the amendments are to be taken together—though we are having explanations but then running on—it will be difficult to discuss points on the different amendments, and everything becomes very complicated. I should be grateful if the Minister could stop there and if we could deal with these tenancies before he goes on to the next amendment in the group. Otherwise, we shall be back to where we were before my noble friend Lord Graham asked for the amendments to be dealt with separately.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, by leave of the House, may I just say that the noble Lord, Lord Graham, did not ask that they be taken separately.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, was the noble Baroness dealing with Amendment No. 38? If so, I should like to reinforce what she said because it raises very big constitutional issues.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, by leave of the House, I shall meet your Lordships' wishes so far as this goes. I had understood that all this had been generally agreed and it is somewhat disconcerting to assume that that is not so. If it is not so, I shall ask questions elsewhere. However, if it is so, I am in your Lordships' hands.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I appreciate the Minister's point. But the list of groupings for the amendments came round very late in the morning and I had to attend another engagement before I came here. Therefore, it was impossible to go through the list to the extent that it should have been gone through in order to decide to agree to it. The noble and learned Lord raised this question which was worrying a
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number of us and I generally misunderstood. If my noble friend had not spoken I was about to say that one way to proceed would be to pause and give a chance for any interventions on the different amendments instead of dealing with them altogether. That is what I should have liked and what I intended to ask the Minister to do. So perhaps we may deal with the amendments in that way. The noble and learned Lord is right about going back and jumping all over the place. Very often amendments are grouped in some sort of order where they can be discussed. But these amendments are not in that kind of order.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, may I say in support of the noble Baroness that I received my copy of the list of groupings after the start of Questions this afternoon. I am very grateful for it, but it seems to me to be leaving matters a little late.
3.50 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, of course I accede to the wishes of the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord. But I am bound to say that it does not augur well for the future conduct of agreements about business arrangements of this kind. However, I shall gladly take it as it is.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, perhaps I could say how grateful I am to have received a copy of the grouping paper; but of course nobody consults anybody sitting on the Cross-Benches.
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, there has been extraordinarily little time between the Committee stage and the Report stage. This has not allowed us to give adequate consideration to the matter. As has just been said, even if one groups the amendments and speaks to them, it is still up to any Back-Bencher who has not been consulted to speak. It should not be passed just on the nod if somebody wishes it not to be so.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, that is a most unreasonable comment. We have had a perfectly proper suggestion from the noble and learned Lord, and a point has been raised by the Front Bench opposite which I accept without question, if that is the wish of the House. To imply that in some way there has been an attempt not to give information or to stifle information is completely wrong, and I take the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, to task. May I say how difficult it is to decide on groupings until we have the Marshalled List. The Marshalled List arrived in my department at 10.30 today and we dispatched it to everybody concerned by 11 o'clock. I do not consider that that was in any way dilatory or means that we were holding something back. All it does is to illustrate the difficulty of dealing with the amendments. However, I am very happy to accede to the request that we should get on and discuss them in any order that your Lordships may wish. That, surely, must be the only matter at issue.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, we are getting very much out of order. If the Minister has finished his speech I ought to put the amendment: Amendment proposed, page 2, line 22, at beginning insert the words as printed on the Marshalled List.
Lord Broxbourne: My Lords, before my noble friend replies, would he say who are the people concerned who were the privileged recipients of this grouping paper?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, to the best of my knowledge the normal convention is that it is distributed to the Opposition parties, the Cross-Benchers and to anybody else who wishes to receive a copy. There is no secret about this. It is merely a question of what is convenient for the working of your Lordships' House. In five years I have never been challenged in this way on this point. During that time I have dealt with about 25 Bills, so I am not rising to my feet as a beginner. The fact is that there has always been a very fair attempt to work together in this way. Now that this matter has been raised I have said that I am quite content to deal with it in whatever way your Lordships may wish. I do not think we need to go further than that.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: My Lords, it is necessary for me to say that my noble friend and colleague did not suggest that anything was wrong. He said only that it is the rule of this House—and always has been—that if a group of amendments is being discussed together and any noble Lord wishes to speak to a separate amendment, he has the right to do so. There is nothing very offensive in that.
Baroness Faithfull: My Lords, may I ask some questions of my noble friend the Minister on Amendments Nos. 1A, 1B, 1, 2, 3, and 3A? I am very grateful to my noble friend for going some way towards meeting the amendments that I moved at the Committee stage. However, may I ask him whether or not he is a little worried about extending only to cemeteries the provision of secure accommodation, which means that people cannot buy a house in the middle of a cemetery? Because of the changing roles of the various local government departments, would not my noble friend agree that there are other areas of operational land held by local authorities upon which there are houses which are at present—and which will continue to be unless the Bill is amended further—subject to the right to buy? I am referring to houses in parks, recreation grounds and council depots; and to at least one in a restricted area at Luton Airport. I live in the area of a district council where accommodation is provided for the caretaker in the various recreation grounds owned by the council. However, this recreational land will probably no longer be needed. If these houses can be purchased by the tenants before the future use of this land has been decided, it will be very difficult for the local authority to sell the land or to put it to another use.
Secondly, may I ask my noble friend to clarify a point which relates to the social services. A great deal of residential custodial accommodation is being changed from its present use to day care use. As that is the case, it will not always be possible immediately to put staff into that accommodation. As a temporary measure, other people will be put into it. Can the Minister assure me that that accommodation will not be subject to purchase? I should be most grateful if those two points could be answered.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, turning to Amendment No. 52, which stands in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, and relates to the police force and the fire authorities, may I say that I raise no objection to those bodies being included. However, I raise objections—and I rang the Minister's office as soon as I received the groupings regarding the amendment which stands in my name and those of my noble friends—to the exclusion of tenancies for educational purposes. The noble Lord went some way towards explaining the reason for this when dealing with a previous amendment. However, may I remind him that at col. 150 of Hansard on the second day of the Committee stage he said that there seems to be no logic in a provision which relates exclusively to educational buildings. The noble Lord explicitly includes in Amendment No. 42 the fire service and the police, who are not explicitly named in the 1980 Act, although education and social services are. It seems as though education and social services have lost out, to the advantage of the fire service and the police. I cannot see any logic in that.
May I refer to the fire service as it operated in the City of Birmingham. As long as 20 years ago the fire service asked whether they could become municipal tenants in their own right. The fire brigade officers in Birmingham became municipal tenants in their own right because they served shifts on three watches and automatically had to go back and forth to fire stations. Many of those fire brigade officers who became tenants in their own right have bought their homes. Therefore the inclusion of the fire service in this amendment means that the position with regard to fire services will not be universal. However, that will apply to education. One wonders about the logic of this. The Department of Education and Science have supported the inclusion of education and in particular have given special support to the representation of ILEA.
It has to be recognised that children who have a physical, mental or sensory handicap have to be placed in special schools. These are the children who need to be educated in special schools and who are not able to enjoy the benefit of special education in integrated ordinary schools. They are a special category of pupil, and many of them, not only in the ILEA but also in many of the shire counties, have been placed outside the boundaries of their own localities.
When teachers or care staff are asked to work in those schools they enter a certain commitment on accepting the job. Over and above teaching, they have to undertake, among other things, an average of 50 hours of additional duties concerned with caring for the children. In recognition of that extra work, they receive additional pay as well as the offer of housing. It is important that their needs should be equally recognised with those of workers in the fire service and the police force.
Emergencies do occur in special schools because all kinds of incidents arise when one is dealing with maladjusted children and children who have suffered educationally because of the situation in their own homes. One also encounters acute illnesses such as diabetes and other forms of physical handicap. I cannot see any reason why the ministry is singling out two categories but is then completely disregarding a third, important category—that of education.
4.2 p.m.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I intervened at the Committee stage of this Bill, knowing that I was addressing a Committee of experts, because I wanted to put the case for the exclusion of old persons' dwellings, particularly in relation to an area such as Scarborough, which is an attractive seaside resort with a large rural hinterland and a much higher than average number proportionally, of elderly persons in its population.
Having done that, I remained listening, absorbed by your Lordships' further deliberations on this Bill. I also remained becoming increasingly alarmed by the form of this Bill, which is legislation by reference of the grossest character. For all that one can judge from the way this Bill is framed, the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, might never have raised this point in debate, and there might never have been increasing concern about the complexity and opacity of leglisation. The Renton Committee, which was a committee of extraordinary distinction, might never have considered the matter for months on end and produced a report which commanded universal approbation and which was, in general, accepted by successive Lord Chancellors.
I mention that because I think that the noble Lord the Minister has referred to Amendment No. 40, and that amendment does exemplify something of what I have been trying to say. It seems to me quite impossible—an act of legislative indecency—to let this statute go out unconsolidated with the statute that it amends.
We have had some very bad legislation lately, but this Bill seems to me to be a particular enormity considering the sort of persons who will be affected. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, made that point at the end of Committee stage. They are some of the humblest of our fellow subjects. They are people who live in council houses. Many of them will have left school at the age of 14, and probably many of them have been concerned in manual labour all their lives.
At the very start of the Committee stage, the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and the noble Lord, Lord Molson, complained about the difficulty of this statute. Both noble Lords are trained in the law. The noble Earl is a Queen's Counsel. Both noble Lords have held high positions in the state, and both have been concerned with the preparation and administration of legislation. If they feel difficulty, what is the difficulty to be felt by those who are affected by this legislation and by those who have to advise them in the Citizens' Advice Bureaux? Indeed, I believe that the difficulty will extend to solicitors, who I think may have very great difficulty in construing what all this means.
I made a proposal on the third day of Committee—right at the end of business quite late at night—to consolidate. Your Lordships will have an opportunity to consider this point later, more narrowly framed. I will not anticipate the arguments, except to say that the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, was mistaken in thinking that Statutes in Force is in any way an acceptable alternative to consolidation.
I mention this because the point arises again on Amendment No. 40 in respect of Clause 24. That
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amendment seeks to institute a new Ground 5B. It states:
"The dwelling house forms part of, or is within the curtilege of,"—
which itself is hardly the everyday language in council houses—
"a building to which sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 1 of Part I of Schedule 1 to this Act applies".
There then follow two sub-paragraphs (a) and (b). If this is not consolidated, it will go out as a statute. It will be the Housing et cetera Act 1984. What will anybody reading that understand by "this Act"? What will they understand by "Schedule 1 to this Act"? This Act will have a Schedule 1; but it does not mean Schedule 1 to the 1984 Act—it means Schedule 1 to the 1980 Act. "This Act" means "that Act", which is the first thing anybody reading the statute will have to master.
That is by no means an isolated example, because such difficulties occur over and over again. We ought to face the fact that this style of legislation is not designed to suit the consumers of the legislation. It is certainly not designed to suit the convenience of your Lordships or another place. It is designed purely to suit the convenience of the Government's business managers. If you legislate in this way, the hope is that the main Act which was already discussed in 1980 will not be rediscussed. Therefore, there are just these amendments made. They are incomprehensible, of course, unless they are consolidated with the 1980 Act.
I may say that the hope of limiting debate is only marginally consummated. I have listened with fascination to reverberations of the 1980 discussions. Obviously the noble Lord the Minister believes intensely, and I found convincingly, in that measure and wants to extend it. On the other hand, the noble Lords on my right do not wish to see this extension. Therefore, there has been constant manoeuvring for tactical positions on the edge of the main 1980 battlefield. The pursuit has been sought to be limited, and ever and anon I must confess I have heard the great guns which dominated the battlefield in 1980 sounding again in all their fury.
So one has to face it—this is a Government business managers' measure. It is not only the present Government who have done this: it has been happening for 25 years, I suppose. Although we all hoped that the Renton Committee would arrest it, obviously unless there is consolidation that will not be done. It is only acceptable if the legislation is consolidated before it has to be used. I use the example of "to this Act" to show how misleading it would be to allow this Bill to go out unconsolidated. It will save time when your Lordships have to consider consolidation. However, I ask your Lordships, as we go through, to bear in mind what we shall so often find—that unconsolidated it is only liable to mislead.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, perhaps I may follow up the very substantial points made by the noble and learned Lord and say that I think he put his finger on why we have this problem at the beginning of the Report stage. I was in any case going to draw attention to it when I moved the next amendment. On this side—and I am sure the Minister thinks the same—we do not like to start a stage of a Bill with a feeling of any animosity or tension between the Benches. It is quite

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different when we are dealing with amendments and clauses, but not on the general point. It is quite clear that the noble and learned Lord has put his finger on the problem because there is great difficulty in mastering this situation.
We also recognise the difficulty which the Minister was in. We had a couple of late amendments, I agree; but the Government also put down some late amendments yesterday. Perhaps I may also point out that unfortunately on these Benches we do not have a Government department to help us and it makes matters extremely difficult. This referring back to the 1980 Act will go on throughout the Bill. I wanted to cheer when the noble and learned Lord said, "When it says, 'to this Act', it means, 'that Act'." It often takes a lot of working out to understand everything, and if we find it so difficult when applying ourselves to legislation, how much more difficult will others find it?
If at this early stage we could have an undertaking from the Minister that there will be an urgent decision to consolidate this legislation, at least we shall all feel that we had something to look forward to—some simplification of this very complicated legislation. As the noble and learned Lord said, we are really dealing with two pieces of legislation together.
This question has been raised, quite rightly, because of the effect of the grouping, and we are trying to feel our way through this legislation this afternoon. It has come out into the open that we do not have to wait for the much later amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord. In view of all that we should try to get some agreement from the Government that this legislation will be consolidated—and not just in the future as we were told on the heritage Bill.
Lord Broxbourne: My Lords, may I add a brief word—and only a brief word is necessary when a matter has been raised by a speaker of the eminence, distinction and authority of the noble and learned Lord on the Cross-Benches. Of course what he says in regard to legislation by reference is universally accepted by all, certainly by all practitioners in the law and, I would assume, by all legislators. It applies with particular force to the statute law which we are here considering. The amendments in question are concerned with amending and adding to the Housing Act 1980. That is an Act of considerable complexity, even by the standards of that category of legislation—and that is by no means a low standard.
Noble Lords will appreciate that the Housing Act 1980, with which we are here concerned by reference, contains no fewer than 155 sections and 26 schedules and covers no fewer than 190 pages of the Queen's Printer's copy. That is a long statute, even by the standards of housing, town planning and public health legislation. It gives rise to considerable difficulties of comprehension. Specifically we are concerned with adding to the grounds specified in the fourth schedule to the Housing Act 1980. As your Lordships know, there are already 13 specified grounds in Part I of the fourth schedule to the Housing Act 1980. The Bill as it comes from Committee would add two more. The amendments proposed would add one more and, if my arithmetic is correct, that makes 16 specified grounds in the fourth schedule; that is quite something.
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I speak, if I may, as someone who has spent a considerable time in studying, seeking to interpret, and advise on the housing Acts of the last half century or so, which I found a difficult task, even with the stimulus and incentive of those inducements to which, fortunately, in one's professional work one is entitled. But for those without such inducements and incentives, as my noble and learned friend said—the noble and learned Lord, but my noble and learned friend in this context—and perhaps without this background of acquaintance with this somewhat and subject, the difficulties are formidable indeed.
I shall not take up another moment of your Lordships' time. My purpose in rising is to invite my noble friend to listen not only with respect to the noble and learned Lord—he would hardly do otherwise—but to consider with sympathy the possibility of meeting his wishes so far as he can.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, for what he said. There is a major problem in reading this. I make only one further point. For over half a century we have completely ruined rented property by the sheer volume of legislation. Let us not do the same with owner occupation. This kind of legislation, which has such complexity, is not in the interests of anyone. If the Government cannot make it more simple, they will damage houses, rather than improve them.
4.19 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, may I say first of all to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, that I am sure he was absolutely right when he said that he heard the guns from 1980 still being fired? As one who was involved in the 1980 battle, I endorse that. It is something of which I have constantly complained, if you like, throughout every Bill since then. I think that this is now the fifth housing Bill that I have dealt with since then. We always come back to the underlying difference in theology between this and the other side of the House. Frankly, I see nothing wrong in that. When we talk of the right to buy, feelings run very deeply and there is an absolute difference between us. There it is. I do not think that it will be resolved today or possibly at any other time. As I am referring to the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, perhaps I could say to my noble friend Lord Broxbourne that of course I listen with respect. I listen with respect to what every noble Lord says, from whichever side of the House. I like to think that I always do that.
May I say this about the very difficult point of consolidation? Since 1982 the Law Commission, with the assistance of the former solicitor and chief legal adviser to the Department of the Environment, who has long experience of housing law, has been working on the consolidation of all housing legislation. The point made by the noble and learned Lord is arguable by itself. The last housing consolidation measure was in 1957. I assure your Lordships that we fully accept the need for consolidation. I repeat that work is proceeding urgently. For reasons which I am sure your Lordships will appreciate, unhappily, I am not in a position today to say when the task will be completed. I say only that it will really be as soon as practicable.

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In the light of the concern which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, has also expressed to me in correspondence, and so on, we have approached the editor of Statutes in Force. He has said that he will take the special step of including in the cumulative supplement for the group "Housing" the complete text of Chapter I of Part I of the Housing Act 1980 together with Schedules 1 and 2 as amended by the Bill. The supplement will also record the amendments, section by section, in the normal way. The editor hopes to publish the supplement within four months from receipt of the Queen's Printer's copy of the Act.
For people other than practitioners, we shall be producing a series of explanatory leaflets about the rights given to tenants by the Bill, which will be made widely available to the public. In addition, we shall be issuing a detailed circular to right-to-buy landlords giving details of the changes which the Bill will make. We shall send a copy of the circular to the Citizens' Advice Burcaux. For these reasons, I hope that the Bill will not create difficulty, at least to the extent that is envisaged.
To consolidate Part I of the present Bill with the 1980 Act would mean a delay of several months before the commencement of a measure which, reverting to 1982, some of us feel is long overdue. The early extension of the right to buy and the strengthening of tenants' rights under the tenants' charter which the Bill will effect are proposals to which the Government are committed. As your Lordships know, we have effectively lost a year because the Bill was introduced in the last Parliament and then was lost on dissolution. We are also anxious that the introduction of the changes to the building regulations should not be further delayed. These have been developed over a number of years with the most thorough-going public consultation, and are eagerly awaited by the construction industry. Nevertheless, I can and do assure your Lordships that the Government fully recognise the urgent need for a consolidation of housing legislation, on which, as I say, work is already in hand. But we should prefer to go for a comprehensive consolidation.
Having said that, later on, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, fairly said, we shall be talking further on this matter. There are other amendments down on this subject, including the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, which I think is Amendment No. 94. I shall happily come back to this again. I say "happily" because I take what he says with great seriousness and would like to dilate further on it when we come to the matter and when we hear what additional observations he has to make on his own amendments.
Lord Molson: My Lords, may I interrupt my noble friend to put to him one penetrating point? He has accepted fully the line of reasoning of the noble and learned Lord and of my noble friend Lord Broxbourne. The point that we want to be assured about is that some form of consolidation will be published before this Bill comes into operation.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, perhaps I can revert to what the noble Lord, Lord Molson, says in a few moments. A number of your Lordships have spoken. May I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, that
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my comments on Amendment No. 48, had I been allowed to continue, would have picked up the point that she was making about open space and parkland? I have already explained why we take the view that tenants should not be denied security of tenure or the right to buy simply because their home happens to be situated in open space or parkland. Many such houses are no longer needed for operational purposes and are let on terms which are not tied to the performance of a particular job. In these circumstances, we see no reason why the dwellings should not be sold and why the sitting tenants should not, in common with other secure tenants, have the right to buy. In some cases there may be a need to place restrictions on the use of a dwelling in the interests of the park in which it is situated, but we think that this can be done by means of appropriate covenants and conditions of sale.
Much open space and parkland is held under the Open Spaces Act 1906 or the Public Health Act 1875. As such, it is subject to what is known as a statutory public trust. In legal terms, such a trust imposes a limitation on the landlord's interest. This might be interpreted as inhibiting a secure tenant's right to buy. Amendment No. 48 therefore provides that dwellings shall be deemed to be freed from a statutory public trust of this nature if they are let on a secure tenancy. This will mean that the tenants have the right to buy.
I should make it quite clear that we are not here proposing a substantial change in local authorities' powers to dispose of dwellings on land held under statutory public trusts. Section 123 of the Local Government Act 1972, as amended by Schedule 23 to the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980, already provides that local authorities may dispose of such land voluntarily—regardless of whether or not it is let on a secure tenancy—freed from the public trust interest, and subject only to certain procedural requirements. We are adding to the Section 123 provision only in the sense that we are providing a right to buy to secure tenants in circumstances where the authority already has a power to sell. I hope that that will assuage the concerns of my noble friend Lady Faithfull, who I know pursues these matters closely.
May I touch on the other point to which she referred; namely, temporary lettings? It may be helpful to her if I pointed out that the new paragraph 2C of Schedule 3 to the 1980 Act will allow temporary lettings of up to three years not to be subject to security of tenure. I think that that may please her.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal, said that she was speaking to Amendment No. 52. If I may put it to her, I think that she was covering Amendment No. 53, because that is the one which deals with the educational point. It makes no difference to what she said.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, yes, I was, but I had to raise the matter on Amendment No. 52. I hoped that the noble Lord understood why I raised the matter on Amendment No. 52. That was the principal amendment.
Lord Bellwin: Point taken, my Lords. This matter brings us back once again to the question of which education authority dwellings should be excluded from security of tenure and the right-to-buy

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provisions. Much that is relevant to this issue has been covered in debates on earlier amendments; but I know that this is a matter of concern in particular to the ILEA. Perhaps I may briefly state the Government's position in relation to employee housing provided by education authorites. It is that any dwelling which a tenant is required to occupy for the better performance of his or her duties and his or her contract of employment, is excluded from security of tenure by virtue of paragraph 2 of Schedule 3. There are no plans to change that. In addition, any dwelling which is let to an employee and which is within the curtilage of educational premises will be excluded from the right to buy, regardless of the terms of the tenant's employment contract. Any dwelling let to a new employee on a temporary basis for up to one year may also be excluded from security of tenure.
This amendment seeks to go wider. What the noble Baroness would like it to do is to go wider than the Government's proposals; for example, excluding an additional category of tenants from security of tenure and the right to buy. As we have been told, it would cover cases where the dwelling is not let under contract of employment, where the dwelling is not within the curtilage of school buildings, and when the letting is not on a temporary basis. All that would be required to deny an education authority tenant security of tenure would be a very general proviso that the tenant's employment duties make it necessary that he lives within reasonable proximity of his workplace.
I would have thought that such a proviso would apply to most of us. Therefore I do not accept that there is a case for that particular amendment. I should like to go back to basics in explaining why not. In 1980 we decided it was right that council tenants should have security of tenure with the right to buy and that these rights of protection should be interfered with only in very exceptional circumstances. In looking at this amendment, I am afraid I have to say that in my view ILEA want to have all the cards in their own hand and they are not prepared to accept that any of their tenant employees may acquire rights in respect of their homes.
Furthermore, they do not appear to have had any regard to the fact that their proposals will deprive certain of their tenants of the statutory security which they have enjoyed since 1980. I cannot believe it would be right to do that. The noble Baroness, Lady Fisher, drew a parallel with what we are proposing in relation to fire authority dwellings. I think we have a rather different set of circumstances here. Under day manning arrangements recommended by the Home Office, firemen are required to live in very close proximity to the station at which they work. It is clearly essential that they do so if the emergency service is to operate effectively. I do not think it is right to draw from this a general precedent applying to other services.
The noble Baroness said it may not always be easy for a body such as ILEA to offer rehousing when possession is sought under the new ground for possession. I accept that, though I believe that a responsible authority would normally wish to ensure that, on retiring, an employee had an alternative home to which to go. She suggested the department might
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give guidance to the housing authorities to look sympathetically at such cases, and I certainly undertake to look into that.
On her point, may I conclude by saying we have considered very carefully what provisions are appropriate to ensure that landlords retain control over dwellings which are needed for operational purposes; but in doing so we have been very conscious that we must not ride rough-shod over the reasonable expectations of tenants, and that we should not deprive tenants of rights conferred in 1980. That particular amendment would do just that.
If I may reply to my noble friend Lord Molson who asked whether the present Bill would be consolidated, I think I touched upon the answer in what I said earlier in my first response to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, namely that to consolidate the Bill with the 1980 Act would add many months to the timetable of the Bill. It means delay in commencement of the provisions and in giving many tenants, therefore, the rights that they have been promised. We promised very firmly that we would give them. I am hoping that when we come to talk about consolidation under the later amendments of the noble and learned Lord, we can go into that more closely. Goodness forbid for me to say what the noble and learned Lord has in mind—I am quite sure he will do that himself—but I do not think that he would want the Bill to be delayed in that way—not least because of the assurances I have given him about the attitude that we are adopting to consolidation. I can assure him that as a result of what he has said in the debates on this Bill the whole process will receive a kick in the pants in terms of time, if I may use the expression.
4.35 p.m.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, as the noble Lord has referred to me so agreeably, perhaps I may say that I would not wish to delay the implementation of this Bill. I do not believe for a moment that consolidation would do so. After all, the noble Lord has a draftsman. The editorial board of the Statutes in Force have no draftsman. If they can do it in four months, certainly the Ministry can do it in much less than four months.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, all I can say is that there is no answer to that—certainly not one that I have. I want to come back to this again later. Clearly, we will be doing so when we are talking in the later amendments. By that time, I will certainly discuss the matter further.
I think I have responded—if I have not I have tried to do so—to most of the points that have been made so far on these amendments—and it is the first amendment which we are discussing. If the noble Lord, Lord Graham, wishes to say something further, I should be glad to try to respond to him with the permission of the House—and I have to remember we are on the Report stage. I think I have covered the points that have been raised. These amendments, may I remind your Lordships, were very much as a result of suggestions made in this House, often by noble Lords opposite. The amendments have been discussed with the local authority associations and indeed have been put together very much with them. That is not a

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situation that we always have these days. I hope that with those observations your Lordships may feel able to accept the amendments and we can then move on to the later business.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I appreciate the spirit in which the Minister has sought to respond and be helpful to the House. I certainly acknowledge that there are 19 amendments and most of them will have been presented to him. I am also conscious of the convention at Report stage, that one in fact only speaks once. I have not yet spoken on these amendments. Of course, with a grouping of 19 amendments one is unfair to the Minister because if everyone speaks early to make sure that they make their point, by the time the Minister replies, he has a very long list of answers to make.
There are two points upon which I want some clarification relating particularly to the Amendments Nos. 40, 41 and 42 which were mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon. I think the Minister can help us a little further to understand more the reason for the amendment. The amendment says:
"the tenant or any person residing in the dwelling-house has been guilty of conduct such that, having regard to the purpose".
Can the Minister tell us whether there is a formula or a mechanism as to who decides this matter? Who determines that the caretaker, for instance, or the person with what one would call, in a clumsy phrase, the service tenancy—whatever it is—has been found guilty? Is it a tribunal? Is it the housing committee? Is it reference to a court? I should like to know whether we can be told who actually determines that. If it is possible for it to be argued as to whether the person is guilty or not, and what are the grounds for guilt, perhaps the Minister can tell us the categories of people that would be covered by this and what are the crimes or the misdemeanours which would cause them to be caught by this amendment. I think in order to illustrate what is meant by this Part of the Bill to people outside, we ought to have a little more detail.
The Minister then quite fairly pointed out that one had to have due regard to the operational needs of the various undertakings. Who in actual fact determines the operational needs? Is this something which the undertaking itself decides: that the operational needs of the authority are such that a house needs to be retained? Again, if there are arguments about it, are we to be driven to raise the matter in the courts, or is there a mechanism of reference so that these disputes—if they turn out to be disputes—are actually raised?
I acknowledge the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne, that in adding to the grounds for possession—and that is what we are talking about—we are now extending the number in the 1980 Act to 16. I cannot complain because I sought to introduce an additional ground for possession at Committee stage. It was a fair argument and I understand the problem. I tried to introduce the argument that grounds for possession ought to be held by the authority so that they could resolve the unhappy situation if a marriage or a partnership may break. So I am not arguing the principle of the need. What we have under this Act—and we know from experience—are illustrations
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where people will see opportunities to raise anomalies. We should be very concerned if what emerged was not merely an extension of grounds for possession but, in effect, it became much more substantial than that. We are satisfied on this side of the House that although the Minister knows our point very well about the general philosophy, what he is doing is trying to take account of individuals, individual authorities, individual categories of people, and attempting to make sure that there is equitable treatment. If the Minister can give us some satisfaction or information on the points that I have raised, perhaps we can make some progress.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, before my noble friend responds to that, may I put to him a suggestion which is at least intended to be helpful and which he may care to say he will consider by way of dealing with the procedural problem with which he is faced? I think all Members of your Lordships' House, wherever they sit, were deeply impressed by the criticisms which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, made with his very considerable authority. I wonder whether my noble friend would consider something on the lines of a practice which developed in the House of Commons fairly soon after the war. At that time there was an enormous flow of delegated legislation—of statutory instruments—a great deal of which proceeded by reference and were therefore very largely (when considered individually) incomprehensible to everybody.
There was considerable resistance to this, and a Member of another place—now dead, but who many of your Lordships may remember, Sir Edward Keeling—objected strongly and put a proposal which was adopted by the Government of the day. That was to annexe to a piece of legislation by reference, as an appendix, a restatement of the earlier legislation as it would appear if the amendments proposed in the legislation then being considered were enacted. That is to say, with a statutory instrument—it is simpler of course than with a large statute like this—you had the legislative proposal in the instrument attached as an appendix to the basic earlier order, as it would appear if the House had accepted the proposals to amend it contained in the current piece of legislation. These were—as some of your Lordships may remember—called "Keeling schedules" after the Member whose valiant efforts caused the Government of the day to produce them.
This falls a good deal short of full consolidation. It does not seek to go through the lengthy processes of the Statute Law Revision Committee and all the rest, but it provides for either House of Parliament—which is actually dealing with a current piece of legislation by reference—a quick view of what the amended earlier provisions will look like if the House agrees to the amendments.
It seems to me that this is a simpler and quicker procedure. It deals with my noble friend's very proper suggestion that full consolidation takes a considerable time; and, indeed, it should not be impossible, given the resources at his disposal, to produce a Keeling schedule for this Bill by the time we get to Third Reading.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, if I may just comment on that observation by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, I confess I have never heard of the Keeling schedules. I should want to take advice on this; and I shall certainly do so.I can make no comment on it but I know it was meant to be helpful. My noble friend always tries to be helpful—and invariably is. Clearly, I shall need to take advice and I will do so.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, may I help the Minister and say that, as I understand it, there was a Keeling amendment of this sort used in this House on the Health Bill and we tried to do the same thing on the national heritage Bill—which was another piece of legislation by reference—in order to simplify matters. Perhaps the Minister could go on from there and he might find that useful.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, the noble Baroness has been in this House longer than I have, and I bow to her greater knowledge on that point. I will take advice and come back to it. May I thank the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, for his very fair observations. It is actually for the landlord to decide in the first instance whether the ground for possession applies, and he would then have to go to the court to seek possession. As to dismissal for behaviour reasons, again that would depend on the offence. It is very hard to list a number of hypothetical situations in which it would arise. The noble Lord, Lord Graham, has spent time in local government (and I am sure on housing) and he will know, as I do, of many situations where a local authority as the landlord has difficulties of that kind. I can think of some to talk about at some length. I can best deal with the point by saying that the local authority as the landlords would have to decide in the first instance whether or not they wished to institute any proceedings on that basis.
Lord Broxbourne: My Lords, if my noble friend would allow me, it is quite clear—is it not?—that the court is the—
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, it is Report stage, is it not?
Lord Broxbourne: My Lords, surely that does not apply. I am more conversant with the other place, as you know, but the speaking rule does not apply to interventions of this sort. It certainly does not down the corridor.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, perhaps I may help my noble friend by agreeing with the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher, that it is Report stage and the normal form in which to make such interrogatory remarks would be to say, "Before the noble Lord sits down".
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, with respect, this is not in fact the rule of order. If the Minister at the Box decides—and it is in his discretion—to give way to another noble Lord, that other noble Lord is then permitted (even though he has spoken) to put his question. I have seen this practice followed very frequently from both sides of the House.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I do not mind at all if my noble friend wishes to make observations. However, I bear in mind the best interests of work in general terms. We have strayed several times today from the regular procedures. As I say, I am always very content to respond to anyone, but I suspect that it may not be too helpful to the general business for me to say that.
Lord Broxbourne: My Lords, I am most grateful. I am also most grateful to have the support of my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter. His service and mine down the corridor, put together, would amount to an almost astronomical time, although my service here is very minimal. His time here is longer and infinitely more distinguished. All I was seeking to say is that it is entirely clear that it is the court that interprets this rather difficult phrase. The court will no doubt proceed, as courts always do, on a basis of judicial interpretation with, as time goes on, case law to support it. We are, of course, dealing with a schedule to the 1980 Act headed, "Grounds on which court may order possession".
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendments Nos. 1B, 1, 2, 3 and 3A:
[Printed earlier.]
On Question, amendments agreed to.
4.51 p.m.
Clause 3 [Further periods to count for qualification and discount]:
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 4, line 41, after ("with") insert ("Part I of').
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with this amendment I should like to refer to Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and 8.
Amendment No. 6: Page 5, line 6, leave out from beginning to ("is") in line 10 and insert—
("(2) For subsection (1) of section 7 of the 1980 Act (discount) there shall be substituted the following subsections—
"(1) A person exercising the right to buy is entitled to a discount equal, subject to the following provisions of this section, to the following percentage of the price before discount, that is to say—
(a) if the period which, in accordance with Part I of Schedule 1A to this Act, is to be taken into account for the purposes of discount").
Amendment No. 7: Page 5, line 15, at end insert—
("; and where joint tenants exercise the right to buy, that Part of that Schedule shall be construed as if for the secure tenant there were substituted that one of the joint tenants whose substitution will produce the largest discount.
(1A) There shall be deducted from the discount any amount which, in accordance with Part II of Schedule 1 A to this Act, falls to be so deducted.").
Amendment No. 8: Page 5, line 20, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
(" (4) Subsections (5) to (11) of that section shall be omitted.").
This is superficially a somewhat complicated set of amendments, but I hope that I can explain their purpose fairly succinctly, and I think that when I have done so they will be seen to be uncontroversial.
The amendments are about the situation where a tenant has already bought a council house; has, for

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whatever reason, sold it and become a tenant again; and wants to buy a second time. Of course, such cases are few and far between, but they can occur, and the rules have to provide for them. Their numbers are bound to increase with the passage of time, and particularly in the context of defective dwellings. We have already announced that the Bill we hope to introduce very shortly will provide in certain circumstances for councils to repurchase defective dwellings and to give their occupants secure tenancies. In those cases, tenants will often wish to buy again.
The rule in the 1980 Act, which is at present reflected in Schedule 2 to the Bill, is that someone who wishes to buy a second time under the right-to-buy rules cannot count any period of tenancy preceding his first right-to-buy purchase towards his entitlement in respect of a second purchase. So, under this rule, someone who bought and sold and became a tenant again would have to "clock-up" the basic two-year residential period as a tenant before he could exercise the right to buy again—but would then be entitled to the minimum discount of 32 per cent. regardless of what discount he may have received on his first purchase.
That rule leads to a number of anomalies and unfairnesses. First, it applies only where the "previous purchase" was under the right-to-buy rules, not where it was under a voluntary sales scheme. Yet many councils grant discounts on voluntary sales which are of the same order as those available under the right to buy. Secondly, the present rule takes no account of the extent to which any first discount may have been limited by the "cost floor" rule, or "clawed back" under the discount repayment rules. It also, as I have said, forces tenants to wait for two years before they can exercise the right to buy again.
On the other hand, in other respects the present rule seems over-generous. It means that someone who becomes a council tenant again can be sure of getting the basic 32 per cent. discount after two years' tenancy regardless of the discount he may have received on his first purchase. So if, for instance, he first bought under a voluntary sales scheme at a discount of 40 per cent. or even 50 per cent. his total discount on the two purchases, after only a short intermission as a tenant again, could be very high indeed. For all these reasons we have concluded that the present rule should be changed. The kernel of the change we are proposing is in Amendment No. 106.
The new rule will provide that where a tenant purchases a second time the whole of his previous tenancy record will count, but his entitlement to discount on his second purchase will be reduced by the cash value of any discount he received and did not have to repay on any previous purchase from any public sector landlord.
The new rule will thus ensure that all previous discounts from public sector landlords are taken into account, not just those on previous right-to-buy sales. But, at the same time, it will be fair to the tenant in that it will take account of any restrictions on the first discount which may have prevented the tenant enjoying the full benefit of his tenancy record—principally, restrictions relating to the cost floor or to the discount repayment rule.
It may help if I give an example, because this is not easy to follow. Suppose that a tenant bought a house in 1980 at a discount of £5,000, and suppose that, for whatever reason, he had to resell it in 1983. He would be liable to repay £2,000 of his discount; so his net discount on the purchase would be £3,000. Suppose that he then buys again in 1985. The old rule would have given him an arbitrary 32 per cent. regardless of both his overall tenancy record and his discount on his first purchase. The new rule will ensure that his full record can be taken into account in assessing discount on the second purchase, but that whatever his entitlement may be it is reduced by £3,000 to reflect the net discount he received on his first purchase. Thus, the effect of the rule is that the tenant's total discount on the two purchases can never be greater than the discount he would have received on his second purchase if there had been no first purchase.
I hope your Lordships are still with me. As I said at the beginning, it is basically all very simple. The new rule is, I am sure, a great improvement on the old. It is fairer; it is tighter; and (would you believe it?) it is more comprehensive. I should be happy to explain the amendments in greater detail if your Lordships wish. However, may I say again that they represent one more attempt at this stage of the Bill to try to meet a situation where there are anomalies and where there are problems and yet, at the same time, not to over-extend the situation; to retain fairness to the tenant yet keep a proper balance for the landlord.
I acknowledge that this is an explanation that your Lordships may want to read in detail. That is why I have set out the amendment as slowly and as clearly as I can. I feel that it will turn out, surprisingly, to be one of the less controversial measures that we are proposing. I beg to move.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I rise only to—
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, may the Question be put?
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Cullen of Ashbourne): My Lords, the amendment proposed is: page 4, line 41, after "with" insert "Part I of".
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I was so hasty because I wanted to congratulate the Minister on the way that he explained the amendment. I feel that, if it had been put to music, both the original and the replacement, with the music written by Andrew Lloyd Webber, he would have a hit on his hands.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, I listened carefully to what the Minister said. Everything that I heard convinces me that the Government are in pursuit of a mirage. They are inviting the House and the public to follow Alice through the looking glass into some amazing kind of wonderland beyond. I suggest that this kind of pursuit of the unattainable is diverting attention from the real housing needs of today. I regret that we have come to this pass. I wish that the Government would concentrate their minds on the real problems of homelessness, bad housing and all the rest.
Lord Evans of Claughton: My Lords, I agree philosophically with what the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, has said. The Government seem to be pursuing the right-to-buy legislation to a point where many of us feel that they have gone over the top. I do not believe, however, that it is on this particular amendment that we should address ourselves to that point.
We have the minefield of this peripatetic tenant/owner-occupier whose life has been painted for us by the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin. If such men or women or joint tenants of that nature—who are continually restlessly moving from tenanted accommodation to owner occupation and then back to tenanted accommodation—exist in any numbers, then it is right that this amendment should have been put down. So although I have my usual suspicion of the Government's motives, I congratulate the Minister on the way in which he has put the situation.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend the Minister how many times a man can be a tenant, an occupier, back to being a tenant, then again an occupier, and so on. Can it go on ad infinitum? If so, such a person might do rather well.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, the point that I wish to make is comparable to the point that has just been made. Clearly we are in a situation where the same council or different councils are in possession of the fact that the person to whom they are going to give the tenancy of a house has previously been the occupant of a council house and the records show that he has bought it and sold it. This query has in fact already been raised. How often can he do it? In my view it can only happen once, but the Minister will clearly come back to this point and help the House.
The Minister and his advisers have moved this amendment in the light of some experience. There must have been illustrations whereby a potential abuse was identified, and identified not in the abstract because otherwise the Minister and his advisers would "go round the bend" in trying to anticipate all the things that could go wrong. But the Minister and the Ministry must have some record of the number of cases drawn to their attention which caused them to feel that this matter is so important that it needs to be taken care of. Can the House be told in how many authorities or in how many instances this happened?
The Minister used the illustration of a tenant who buys at a discount of£5,000. If he sells after three years he has to repay £2,000. The Minister will know that there are cases where someone has a 50 per cent. discount, but in actual fact all he has is £5,000 because the market value of the house is £10,000. These days there can be very few council houses which have 40, 50, or 60 years left and only a market value of £10,000. As regards the London area, and certainly where I live in Edmonton, the houses that are being bought and sold have a value of £30,000 and £40,000, and so we are talking about £20,000. Quite frankly, I cannot believe that the Enfield Council—which has the difficulties which everyone has—has actually given a tenancy to someone who, to its knowledge, has had access in other ways.
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We are talking about very big sums of money. The Minister is saying that we are stopping someone from getting the first 50 per cent. off the first house and then a second 33 per cent. off the second house. Bearing in mind that it is a bit later, it will be 33 per cent. off a larger value. For instance, if in the first case it was £30,000 and the tenant got 50 per cent. discount, he would have £15,000. Two or three years later it may be that the house is valued at £48,000. He only has to get a third off and he has £16,000 the second time round. So the Minister is absolutely right in stopping this crazy business to which the noble Lord, Lord Evans, drew our attention. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, quite rightly pointed to the misuse or the wrong use of public money for housing purposes. There are better uses to which, in my view, most people would say this money (if it is there at all) needs to be put and that is to build more homes for people to rent.
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, I would support the amendment but I would like to say how much I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, has said. Whereas the Government seem only too willing to look at the academic aspects of the Bill, they seem to fail to see what is happening on the ground or its side effects. I think that that is what the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, was saying. Anyway one must be grateful for this amendment because it does set the record right and prevent the odd case of abuse of legislation which none of us likes to see.
Lord Spens: My Lords, I am an amateur on this Bill and I feel very much like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale. I have been trying to find out where Part I of Schedule 1A to this Bill exists. If one looks at Clause 3(5) one sees that it says:
"After Schedule 1 to the 1980 Act there shall be inserted, as Schedule 1A the Schedule set out in Schedule 2 to this Act".
If we look at Schedule 2 to this Act we see that it talks about Schedule 1A, but nowhere does it talk about Part I of Schedule 1A. Where is Part I? How much of that schedule does it include?
5.5 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, perhaps I can just say something to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. Not for the first time he raises his general concern about housing in its broadest sense. I do not quarrel with him that the need to take the broadest look and to give the broadest attention to many aspects of housing is something that should concern this Government, and I tell him that it does concern this Government. If I were speaking in the broadest terms of housing generally—and that really is not what we are supposed to be doing in the Report stage of this Bill—then I should want to tell him of the measures that the Government are taking and have taken to tackle the whole problem of housing in its broadest sense. So while it is not difficult to make the point that he makes, I can tell him that in fact—as I know he knows from the many debates which he and I have had in the last five years from discussion of the very first housing Bill—the situation is much broader than the narrow confines of what we are proposing in this right-to-buy legislation. The fact is that housing is

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not just about the right to buy; it is about many other matters. But I shall resist the temptation to move into that whole area at the moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham, raised a number of points. Let me just say to him, as I know he knows, that this is simply nothing more and nothing less—and this is why I said that it would not be controversial, and I do not think that it is—than an attempt to try to deal with things that I believe are more likely to happen in the future than have happened hitherto, because of, in particular, defective housing and also because the 1980 Act is now in its fourth year and, inevitably as more and more people buy their homes, there is bound to be more movement. My noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard has said that people could make this a good thing. If we do not do what we are proposing in this amendment, then my noble friend would he quite right. No one wants that to happen and that is why we are proposing the amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Spens, asks where Schedule lA is—
Lord Spens: No, my Lords, I want to know where Part I of Schedule 1A is. I know where Schedule 1A is—it is in Schedule 2, but there does not seem to be a Part I.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, Schedule 1A will be a new schedule and it is amended by these amendments.
Lord Spens: My Lords, that still does not help me as to Part I of Schedule 1A. If I look at Schedule 2 I can see Schedule 1A, but I cannot see Part I. Yet this amendment inserts after the word "with" the words "Part I or.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, perhaps I can help the noble Lord. In fact, Amendment No. 96 introduces Part I of Schedule 1A at page 64, line 3; and Amendment No. 106 introduces Part II at page 65, line 30.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, the next amendment is Amendment No. 5. If Amendment No. 5 is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 6 and 7.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, before the noble Baroness moves Amendment No. 5, am I right in thinking that she is now seeking to move out of the Bill subsection (2) of this clause as not yet amended, because we have not reached Amendment No. 6?
Baroness Birk: My Lords, it is to remove subsection (2) of Clause 3.
Baroness Birk Baroness Birk moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 5, line 6, leave out subsection (2).
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in order to prevent confusion and misunderstanding it would be easier and shorter in the long run if I explained, rather than jumping into the substance of it, exactly what the subsection does. The part that I wish to take out is to do with the discount. The amendment would take out:

"(a) if the period to be taken into account under subsection (5) below is less than three years, 32 per cent.; and

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(b) if that period is three years or more, 32 per cent. plus one per cent. for each complete year by which that period exceeds two years, but not together exceeding 60 per cent".

This refers to, and changes, subsection (1) of Section 7 of the 1980 Act. Under the 1980 Act—and perhaps this is to what the noble and learned Lord was referring to—it is stated:

"(a) if the period to be taken into account under subsection (5) below is less than four years, 33 per cent.; and

(b) if that period is four years or more, 33 per cent. plus one per cent. for each complete year by which that period exceeds three years, but not together exceeding 50 per cent.".

What my amendment intends to do is to take the position back to the 1980 Act from the position which the Government are introducing into this Bill, which is to increase the top amount of discount from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. The noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton, when discussing the last amendment moved by the Minister, said that while he was not very happy about it he did not think that that had gone over the top. I would say that this change in the legislation that we have before us today has gone over the top. As my noble friend Lady Fisher did when she moved a similar amendment rather late at night on Committee, I also would ask: when will the Government get to the point of giving the houses away? The success of the right to buy has exceeded even the Government's best hopes. Incidentally, I noticed in re-reading the Committee stage when the Minister was replying that he just, in a broad way, said that he knew that Members on this side of the House were just against the right to buy, and more or less that was that. This does not happen to be true, whatever he may continue to think. What we feel is that it has to be dealt with with some discrimination, and there has to be some sensible social limit to the amount of discount that is being given away.
As I say, the success of the right to buy has exceeded even, I should have thought, the Government's best hopes. As I understand it, approximately 700,000 dwellings have so far been sold, and the Government's prediction for 1984–85 is a further 162,000. Is this other inducement because the Government are worried that this demand will fall off, or are they anxious—which I would find difficult to understand—to give away more public money in discounts where manifestly it is not needed? This is an important point of economics and finance and not just a question of housing philosophy.
Nearly £3,000 million has been given away in discounts since the right to buy was introduced. The average discount for each dwelling sold is already in excess of 40 per cent. A rise to a 60 per cent. maximum would take the average to nearly 50 per cent. All the evidence suggests therefore that the right to buy does not need a boost at this time. It would encourage speculative purchases for gain, particularly at the high levels of discount. A £30,000 house would sell for £12,000 with its 60 per cent. discount. If that house were sold again after five years at, say, £40,000, then the purchaser would have made a capital gain of £28,000 over the five-year period.
I really do not think that public expenditure should be in this sort of business. This is not what public money should be used for. In our view the discount should be no more or no less than that which a sitting

1399
tenant might expect in the private sector when purchasing from his or her landlord. Clearly this would be far less than 50 per cent., and most certainly less than the 60 per cent. proposed in Clause 3.
There is another point about this. It encourages people to try to exercise the right to buy. The Government are absolutely entitled, and they have the mandate, to do that. But the Government must take a balanced view of this. If the encouragement is too great so that it almost pushes people into undertaking commitments that they have not got the financial responsibility to undertake over a long term, then the Government are entering the field almost of the door-to-door salesman, or the inducement to people to take on hire purchase commitments which they cannot afford to keep up.
In fact, the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk—not on the 60 per cent. but on the question of people taking on more commitments than they can afford—referred on Second Reading to "bribery". To increase discounts above the current level allows the disposal of valuable public assets at even lower prices than is currently the case. With thousands of millions of pounds involved, I should have thought that noble Lords would feel that it is inappropriate to dispose of public assets in this way without regard to a reasonable return for the public purse in the form of capital receipts from these sales. Now £3,000 million income forgone in discounts is equivalent to £3,000 million less for investment through capital receipts received.
This ties up closely with the comments made on the last amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. If we are to increase the housing stock of the country—and the Government say that this is what they want, but this is not what is happening—then there must be more capital available for housing and for the whole of the housing programme. As this has declined, to take an action like this would seem wrong, irrespective of people's views on where the right to buy should start or end. On this amendment we are discussing simply the question of discount. We had an Act not so long ago in 1980, and when this Bill was first introduced this new proposition to increase the discount was in it, in 1983, and we ought to pause and think carefully about this before allowing it to go through. I beg to move.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, I should like to explain why my name is attached to this amendment and why I support the noble Baroness in this matter. I had numerous doubts and disagreements with the economic and social policy of the first Thatcher Government, but it was the Housing Act 1980 that precipitated my departure from the Tory Benches after sitting on those Benches for some 10 years, and after, I might add, voting Tory in just about every parliamentary election between 1953 and 1967.
The Government showed by the Act of 1980 that they were beginning to give away public assets. They claimed to have a mandate to do so. I would maintain that it was a very poor mandate. It also showed that they were unwilling to allow local authorities to settle what should be the local housing policy; something that seems to be totally contrary to the whole history and tradition of the Tory Party.
1400
The Government did not attempt to provide a bounty or largesse to all local authority tenants. They restricted this to those who were able to raise the finance and to purchase. Had the Government said that any tenant who applied may have, for instance, 1 per cent. of the equity of his house for each year of his tenancy, that would have been fair, though it would have been quite unjust to private sector tenants, who would not have participated in this distribution. That is why I feel that the 1980 Act was both unjust and discriminatory. It introduced an unjust right without placing on those who benefited from it any balancing duty towards either the local community or the state.
The Minister cannot say that I am against a property-owning democracy. I am in favour of it. As a landlord myself I have sold quite a number of previously rented houses. I have also sold what were previously leasehold houses. In a totally different capacity, acting for a voluntary body, I have advised many people with housing problems that they could solve them by house purchase and I have put them in touch with building societies, solicitors and other necessary people. Therefore I am in favour of people buying houses.
I do not believe either that there is anything particularly sacrosanct about the present stock of council housing. But I maintain that it should not be sold off or given away without a reform—a comprehensive reform—of the present totally anomalous and unjust system of subsidies and tax benefits that have been bedevilling housing for far too long. Such a reform of personal housing finance has been shirked and avoided by every Government over the last 10 or 20 years. It is, in my view, quite inappropriate to sell or give away public assets at the present time when the production of housing to rent has been harshly cut back from 1979 until the present. The result, which we can see quite clearly, is rising homelessness and more children in care. We read only in this morning's papers of renewed riots of a Rachman-type taking place in the East End.
I cannot accept that a Government who invent generalised rights in hopes of gaining votes from groups of people who are not traditionally their party supporters are doing the right thing. That was the bait in the 1979 manifesto. That was the motive of the right honourable gentleman, Mr. Heseltine, in his 1980 Act. The Government have shown that they are not content with what they achieved in 1980. As the French say, "l'appétit vient en mangeant"; and we have seen the Government coming back repeatedly for more. In 1983 they tried to alienate the properties of charitable housing associations. This year they have tried to dispose of a few previously protected old persons' and disabled persons' dwellings and other miscellaneous properties. Now the Government wish to shorten the qualifying period and to increase the maximum discount. Once again this bounty is not available to all tenants. It is restricted to those who happen to be able to buy, or who are assisted by others to buy. In my view the principle is bad, the extension is immoral, and I trust that the House will reject it.
5.23 p.m.
Lord Evans of Claughton: My Lords, I wish briefly to say that I agreed with almost every word—every

1401
word that I understood—of what both the noble Baroness said and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, said. I was not quick enough to catch his French quotation. I would be tempted to quote something in Welsh, if I could find anything suitable, but offhand I cannot think of anything.
This is much more a watershed amendment than anything we have heard hereuntofore. From these Benches I want to underline the point that we are not against owner-occupation. We are in favour of a property-owning democracy. The question is: at what point is the line drawn in giving away to tenants' capital assets that belong to the nation so as to enable those tenants to become both owner-occupiers and—as has happened in two general elections—Conservative voters?
It seems to me that we should have at least an equal concern, if not a greater concern, for the people who, however generous are the Government, for one reason or another are not able to purchase houses and become owner-occupiers. The area of real need is in many of those houses in the private sector, where the kind of Rachmanism referred to in the newspapers today and mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, takes place and where many people live in conditions of squalor because the rent and mortgage interest restrictions legislation have made it uneconomic for the landlord to carry out repairs. The Government's proposed limitation on improvement grants will make this situation much worse for private sector tenants.
I should like to see from the Benches opposite more concern for the people who are in real, desperate housing need, rather than this obsessive concern with giving more and more to people who might then be tempted to purchase their council houses. It is a question of where one draws the line. With the enormous number of people who have chosen to purchase under the right-to-buy legislation, I should have thought, as the noble Baroness has pointed out, that the Government have proved, by their own success, that 50 per cent. as the top limit was quite enough. Why do they now want to take it up to 60 per cent? What argument can there possibly be for taking it to 90 per cent. or 100 per cent. or, in a moment of wild excitement before the next general election, 110 per cent., and giving people cash for taking the houses off their hands? Where do we draw the line? I think the line should have been drawn where it was generously drawn at 50 per cent. I feel that the amendment should be supported and that the Government's action is difficult to defend, though I am sure the noble Lord the Minister will do his best.
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. One of the worries is: where is the money coming from? One is almost certain that in the future it will mean a reduction in the amount of money available for housing as a whole. Most people consider that the Government's estimates for this proposal are far too low. Council houses are terribly important for helping people when they cannot find something on the private market. There is also another factor. Bearing in mind the unemployment situation, people ought to be able to be moved from one area where they are in council houses to another. From that point of
1402
view alone housing is becoming even more important than it always has been.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I, too, should like to support the amendment. Unlike a number of noble Lords on the Opposition Benches, I do not oppose, and never have opposed, the broad principles of the right-to-buy legislation introduced since 1979. Where I have opposed the Government and their predecessors is in matters of detail. This is one of those occasions. I believe that a discount of as much as 60 per cent. at the expense of the public purse is excessively generous and cannot be defended in any way. In passing, may I say that I cannot help but suspect that a large number of Conservatives in the country at large and in Parliament would support my contention in private, if not in public.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, perhaps I may follow on what my noble friend Lady Birk has outlined; I raised at Committee stage this question of shortening the period from three years to two. Listening to today's debate, one understands that if one increases the discount, one must get back capital receipts some way; so one shortens the term from three years to two. I was not brilliant enough to remember that point last time. What we must take into consideration is that while we are doing all these things, while we are increasing the discounts and shortening the period, we are also—and nobody has mentioned this—increasing very substantially the rents of those who are still renting the properties.
When people talk about council house rents, I feel sure they think that many tenants still pay only a pound a week to live in those houses. The average rent now being paid in the West Midlands is from £23 to £28 a week. It is that kind of rent people are being called upon to pay. I think that people fail to realise that these high rents go up each year because of Government edicts. While, on the one side, we are giving rebates over and above these amounts each year to people who can afford to buy, on the other side there are those who are unemployed and on housing benefits who cannot afford to buy. They are deprived of these houses while those who are working are being called upon more and more to pay increased rents. This is what I would call the double-dyed effect of the Government proposals.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, hears the guns thundering yet louder all the time the debate goes on. Certainly, I do. I must therefore bring up some of my own. Again and again noble Lords opposite are protesting, "We are not against home ownership, we are not against the selling of council houses". Every word they now utter, as they uttered in 1980, disproves that all the way down the line.
Let me take up the points they have made. The noble Baroness, on the one hand, says that she is concerned at the lowness of the prices that this legislation will lead to. I would remind her at once that the cost floor pertains. That is also the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Evans, who asked why it could not be 100 per cent. or 110 per cent. There is a cost floor below which no sale can take place. On the one hand,

1403
the noble Baroness claims that the legislation will leave the houses costing so little and then, in the same breath, she says that it pushes people into undertaking a commitment to buy something that they cannot afford. But if the prices are to be so low as she fears, that must be contradictory.
Let me explain that we are talking here of 60 per cent. for people who have occupied a dwelling for 30 years. If it is 21 years, then it is 51 per cent. If it is 22 years, it is 52 per cent. It becomes 60 per cent. only after 30 years. I ask your Lordships to think of the people who have lived in council houses that were built 30 years before and who have paid the rent for 30 years. It is now said that it is so iniquitous that the Government seek to sell to them and give them 60 per cent. discount. Some may think so; I certainly do not—perhaps the noble Lord who is about to interrupt will not interrupt. I did not. This is not the other place where speakers are interrupted.
The fact is this. We are told that the legislation will have some devastating effect upon the availability of capital, and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, waxed eloquent in his best French about why it was that it would have such an adverse effect. The guns are still firing. These are the very arguments that we heard in 1980. Yet here today the noble Baroness reminded us of 700,000 dwellings, which involve approximately 1½ to 1¾ million people of our population living in homes which they own themselves. That has not had all the adverse effects that we were told about. It has not meant there has been a lack of available accommodation to rent. The same people are living in the same homes, only now they live in them as owners when before they lived in them as tenants. It does not make the dwellings one whit more available or less available to rent than before.
Yet we are told that all this money will have been lost in some way or another. May I tell the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that, with the local authorities today having some £2,000 million of capital receipts in their coffers, they can do things on housing (if they decide that is their priority) that they were never able to do before. The decision is theirs. So let us not have any diverse talk about what adverse effects this will have upon the whole of housing. If we want to talk about the rectitude of the policy of giving people an extra 10 per cent. for 10 years in which they have lived in their own houses, let that be the debate. But let it not spin off into other aspects of housing. It just is not so.
To come back to the rectitude of this particular issue, I see nothing wrong at all in this. When we are told that we do this because we wish to gain votes or whatever—come on! That was said in 1979 and in 1983, and no one can deny that it was clearly there in the manifestos. No one can deny it was massively supported by the people, and that those who have taken advantage of it are very happy. The only thing that irks noble Lords opposite is that it has been so successful, and that it is what they need. I make no apologies whatsoever for the Government. I support this 100 per cent. It is not wrong that people who have lived 30 years in a home should be given the chance today to buy it at a 60 per cent. discount, especially when the cost-floor factor operates at the same time.
1404
Clearly noble Lords opposite wish to divide the House on this. It is entirely up to them. This is not the first time that this has come to the fore. It came a year ago, and it came again when we debated at the Committee stage. I shall be very interested to see the feelings of the House on it. As far as I am concerned, it was a commitment made by the Government. It is one that we are carrying out, and it is right, not just for the people concerned but for the totality of housing.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, the Minister has dealt passionately with this issue. There really is no use in his bringing up this old chestnut all the time about the right-to-buy issue and the attitude on this side of the House. We are discussing an amendment which increases the maximum rate of discount from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. I intend to restrict my remarks to that amendment. The Minister said there was a contradiction in what I said: that, on the one hand, there would be people who would make profits from it; and, on the other, there would be people who would undertake commitments that they could not afford. These are two different sets of people. The same thing can be happening to entirely different people. We are not talking about the same people doing the same thing. But the noble Lord knows that.
There is no use his saying that local authorities have astronomical amounts to spend which they do not spend. He knows as well as I do—and even better—the amounts that are being cut in local authority expenditure. He knows that housing has taken the biggest cuts in local authority expenditure. He knows that since 1979 the housing investment money has been reduced by some 60 per cent.
There are two points here. First, the noble Lord has had no support from behind him; and, secondly, he has not answered the question I put in moderate terms when moving the amendment as to why there is an increase from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. When, in the 1980 Act the top figure was 50 per cent. He has not answered that question. The sort of reasoning he put forward does not add up, and I would therefore ask the House to divide on this amendment.
5.40 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 5) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 79; Not-Contents, 98.

DIVISION NO. 1

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Derby, Bp.

Aylestone, L.

Diamond, L.

Birk, B.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Bishopston, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Ennals, L.

Bottomley, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Brockway, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Caradon, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Fitt, L.

Foot, L.

Chitnis, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Collison, L.

Gallacher, L.

Craigavon, V.

Galpern, L.

Crowther-Hunt, L.

Gladwyn, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Grimond, L.

Denington, B.

Hale, L.

1405

Hanworth, V.

Phillips, B.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Hylton, L.

Ingleby, V.

Sainsbury, L,

Irving of Dartford, L.

Seear, B.

Jacques, L.

Seebohm, L.

Jeger, B.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Jenkins of Putney, L.

Serota, B.

Kagan, L.

Shinwell, L.

Kennet, L.

Simon, V.

Kilmarnock, L.

Stallard, L.

Leatherland, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Longford, E.

Stone, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Mais, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Mishcon, L.

Underbill, L.

Molloy, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Monson, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Mulley, L.

Wilson of Rievaulx, L.

Ogmore, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Oram, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Abinger, L.

Kemsley, V.

Ampthill, L.

Killearn, L.

Avon, E.

Lane-Fox, B.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Bellwin, L.

Lawrence, L.

Beloff, L.

Liverpool, E.

Belstead, L.

Long, V.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Lyell, L.

Broxbourne, L.

Mancroft, L.

Bruce Gardyne, L.

Margadale, L.

Caithness, E.

Marley, L.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Cathcart, E.

Chelwood, L.

Merrivale, L.

Cockfield, L.

Mersey, V.

Coleraine, L.

Mottistone, L.

Colwyn, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Moyne, L.

Croft, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Newall, L.

Daventry, V.

Norfolk, D.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Digby, L.

Onslow, E.

Dilhorne, V.

Orkney, E.

Drumalbyn, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Dundee, E.

Pender, L.

Eccles, V.

Portman, D.

Ellenborough, L.

Radnor, E.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Rankeillour, L.

Elton, L.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Enniskillen, E.

Renton, L.

Faithfull, B.

St. Davids, V.

Fanshawe of Richmond, L.

Selkirk, E.

Gainford, L.

Simon of Glaisdale, L.

Gisborough, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Glanusk, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Glasgow, E.

Strathspey, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Sudeley, L.

Gowrie, E.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Terrington, L.

Thomas of Swynnerton, L.

Halsbury, E.

Trefgarne, L.

Harvington, L.

Trenchard, V.

Hives, L.

Trumpington, B.

Holderness, L.

Vaizey, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Vickers, B.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Vivian, L.

Ilchester, E.

Whitelaw, V.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
5.49 p.m.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 6:
[Printed earlier: col. 1392.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 6, which was taken with Amendment No. 4 earlier.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendments Nos. 7 and 8:
[Printed earlier: col. 1392.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 together.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 4 [Inclusion of land let with or used for purposes of dwelling-house]:
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 6, line 5, leave out ("or has been used") and insert ("let").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we have had the opportunity at this stage of the Bill both to better understand the new clause and also to reflect on what the Minister said at the Committee stage. The Minister will acknowledge that this amendment first saw the light of day at that time; and, simply to be helpful to the House, perhaps I might quote the first paragraph of what he said in introducing Amendments Nos. 132 and 133:
"The new clause deals with the inclusion of land in right-to-buy sales. In this context, 'land' includes garages, and it is particularly in connection with the sale of garages that problems have arisen, although there have also been difficulties over the inclusion of gardens."—[Official Report, 28/2/84; col. 1237.]
So we have a problem which relates to garages and gardens, and it is the view of the Government that this new clause is appropriate to deal with it.
I was a member of the Committee in another place, and I can recall the discussions when the Members for Woolwich, East and West, from two different parties, John Cartwright and Peter Bottomley, both spoke very strongly and with feeling. Perhaps the Minister will acknowledge that one of the councils—in its eyes rightly, but in the eyes of the Government wrongly—took the opportunity which the law provided of dividing and using it separately, and not applying it just to the house, the garden or the land attached to it. There were other authorities which were involved at the same time. The Government made a fair case, saying that this was the kind of anomaly that had been created and that the manner in which the law was being applied was not the will of Parliament, so it needed to be put right. The Minister came to the Committe on 28th February and moved the clause.
I have to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Monson, who is not in his place, who was very quick to point out to the Committee the queries which he had, which I confess I had not perceived, not necessarily as to the purpose of this new clause—I accept the purpose which the Minister gave in introducing it; it was to block up loopholes which, in the Minister's view, were being exploited by an authority that wished to do so—but as to one or two other matters that have caused us a great deal of

1407
unease since. This is what the noble Lord, Lord Monson, said at column 1238:
"I fully take his point about garages, but surely the effect of the amendment as drafted would be to enable tenants to purchase at a large discount houses with gardens or with land attaching of as much as two acres. From looking up the 1980 Act, that would be the effect of the amendment. Of course, there may not be many local authority or housing association houses with as much as two acres of land attaching, but certainly in rural areas there are many council houses with very large—by urban standards—vegetable gardens attaching to them. —[0fficial Report, 28/2/84.]
As the Minister pointed out on earlier amendments, many things are possible and one has to legislate for the impossible happening. But what we have here is a situation where anything up to two acres of land attached to a house is capable of being sold with it.
As to the purpose of Amendment No. 9—althought another amendment follows later which clears away the whole of the clause—the words that disturb my noble friends greatly are these:
"There shall be treated as included in a dwelling-house any land which is or has been used for the purposes of the dwelling-house".
This House, like another place, needs to be very sensitive, not merely about what is meant by the words on the face of a Bill, but about how they are capable of being understood by others outside, because interpretation can vary. The great objection to the clause and to those words is that they are wide and could include—the Minister may disagree—temporary arrangements on vacant plots not let to the tenant; in other words, permission to cultivate a vacant plot prior to development for housing.
I acknowledge that the Minister is well experienced in local government, and he has the appreciation of the House for his services. He must know of many temporary situations where land is not needed immediately for road widening or for development. I am talking about a piece of scrub land which is given to a tenant. The land may not be attached to the dwelling-house, but it is land,
"which is or has been used for the purposes of the dwelling-house";
in other words, the land is used by the tenant in connection with his tenancy. I am not talking about a bit of industrial development or non-conforming use; I am talking about a proper arrangement with land which is not attached to a dwelling-house. We believe that some very serious situations could arise. A council may have let the land in good faith, as a favour on a temporary basis, but that land will now be open to a right-to-buy application under this clause.
The Government have moved from the principle that they want tenants to have the right to buy their house—not a house in which they have been living for years, but one in which they have been living for, perhaps, only two or three years. We are now moving to a situation where that tenant is also the user of another piece of council property. We want the Minister to tell us that the illustrations which we are raising are not possible. If they are possible, we hope very much that he will take this away and look at it again.
We believe that the 1980 Act, which stipulates two acres of agricultural land, is sufficient to take account of unusual circumstances. The Minister used the illustration of garages and gardens, and I am prepared
1408
to acknowledge that an authority, for its own good reasons and being a little more zealous than the Minister might have wished, tried to drag its feet in implementing the Act. But I understand that that problem about garages and gardens with that authority—there may have been others—has been resolved. In other words, there has been a passage of time—we are talking about the experience of 1981, when we last discussed the Act—and we on this side cannot see the need for the clause in its present form.
We understand also that the discounts which the Minister has successfully piloted through the House, which can amount to 60 per cent. for the tenant of a council house, will be available on both the land and the house. If a piece of land not adjacent to the dwelling-house has been used for the purposes of that dwelling-house, whatever its size—perhaps one-quarter, one-sixth or one-tenth of an acre—we understand that it will be capable of being sold at the same time as the dwelling-house. But the 60 per cent. provision for the repayment of the discount will not apply to the land. If under Clause 5 of the Bill, page 7, line 24, the land we are referring to will not be capable of having the five-year graduated repayment discount applied to it, the Minister has to justify why that will be the case. Even in the case of the smallest piece of land which has been bought with a dwelling-house and used in connection with it, we do not need a great deal of imagination to realise that it represents a free gift. If somebody gets the dwelling-house and the piece of land which has been used with it, that piece of land is capable of being sold. The tenant will get not only the right to buy his house but also the right to buy a piece of land and to sell it immediately.
We fail to see why the Minister is so determined to heap upon those who have, just a little more. In our view, the council tenant already has a very good deal if he has a decent council house, a decent landlord and a fair rent—whatever that might mean. Council tenants have the right to buy their homes at 40 per cent. of their market value. The Minister has to justify to the House why they should have this additional right to purchase land which is not attached to the house but which has been used for the purpose of the dwelling-house. If the Minister is unable to give satisfactory answers to the points we have made, or tells us that the illustrations I have given are possible, though not likely, we shall have to consider whether to test the will of the House. I beg to move.
6.3 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, first may I explain briefly the background to the provision. Section 3(4) of the 1980 Act permits the parties to agree to the inclusion of,
"land used for the purposes of the dwelling house"
in a right-to-buy sale. Clause 4 replaces that subsection with a new subsection which gives to the tenant the right to the inclusion of such land if it is reasonable in all the circumstances. However, the amendment would restrict this right to,
"land let for the purposes of the dwelling house".
As I shall explain in a moment, this is wrong for a number of reasons. Nevertheless, may I say how much I appreciated the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, deployed his arguments.

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First, land could be included only if it was let to the tenant. There must be a tenancy of the land. A licence may be insufficient. It can be difficult to decide in any given case whether an arrangement amounts to a licence or a tenancy. There may also be difficulty in ascertaining the precise boundaries of the land let to the tenant. Clause 4(2) overcomes these problems by permitting the inclusion of land if it is used by the tenant or some other occupant of the dwelling-house. This should be relatively easy to determine in any given case as a matter of fact.
Secondly, it would be necessary, according to the amendment, to determine the purpose of the letting. There are a number of problems about this. The letting may have taken place many years ago. The motives of the tenant may have been different from those of the landlord. It may therefore be difficult to tell in any given case precisely why the land was let to the tenant. Clause 4(2) concentrates on the use made of the land by the tenant or another occupant of the dwelling-house. Again it will be relatively straightforward to determine in any given case whether or not the land is being used for the purposes of the dwelling-house.
It may be argued that it is wrong just to look at the use made of the land by the tenant and that the intentions of both parties should be considered. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, made that point. The amendment would certainly achieve this result. But the landlord's intentions would also be relevant to Clause 4(2), as drafted, since the tenant has the right to have the land included only if it is,
"reasonable in all the circumstances".
This involves a consideration of the interests of both the tenant and the landlord. Clearly it would be relevant to consider the circumstances in which the land can be used for the purpose of the dwelling-house.
I fear that the amendment would lead to much confusion. It would defeat a principal purpose of Clause 4, which is to remove uncertainty as to the land which a tenant has the right to buy with his dwelling-house. A number of the amendments are designed to try to remove the anomalies and uncertainties which are to be found in the existing legislation.
May I respond to some of the other points which were made by the noble Lord. He said that we should not hide behind the fact that this might apply to only a few cases. I accept that point. I have made it in other ways. It is fair to say that one can always find the odd, unusual case. I do not defend this decision by reason of the fact that the number of cases is likely to be small. Indeed, during the last three and a half years the number of cases which have come to the attention of my department could be counted on the fingers of one hand. But that by itself is not the whole answer. Even if a council house garden has development potential, that potential—assuming it is established at the time of the right to buy sale—will be taken into account in the valuation. In other words, a tenant who buys his council house will pay a price which reflects the fact that part of his garden may be resold for development. To that extent there will be compensation, subject to the normal discount rules.
I should also emphasise that a purchaser who subsequently makes a disposal of this kind will not
1410
necessarily be entirely absolved from having to make a discount repayment. The normal repayment rules will still apply if the sale takes place within five years of the original purchase. In all cases where a secure tenant claims to buy land which is or has been used for the purpose of the dwelling-house, the landlord—I wonder whether the noble Lord appreciates this point—may object on the ground that it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be included. Whether or not it is reasonable is ultimately a question for the county court to determine. I recognise all the limitations. However, one would still have to insert that caveat when considering the merits of this proposal.
I am sure that at the end of my response the noble Lord realises that the Government will have to resist the amendment. We are trying to provide a measure of equity because of some of the anomalies which have arisen, based upon experience of the working of the 1980 Act. Lessons were bound to be learned. In the adjustments which we are trying to make both in this and in a few other ways we come back always to the underlying principle of trying to make the legislation better, fairer, and, not least, more clearly understood and defined.
Lord Somers: My Lords, I must confess that I found the Minister's explanation a little confusing. I know that must be my fault and not his. Would it not be perfectly simple to use the words,
"the land on which the house is built",
and so solve all the difficulties?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, with the leave of the House, that is not the problem we are discussing. The problem occurs where there is land which is part of the whole of the dwelling. If we were talking only about the land on which the house itself was built then we would not he discussing this matter at all.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, as I understand it, a let must be written. That should not lead to too much confusion. It is being suggested that a licence is what is in mind, but a licence need not be written. Someone may say, "Very well, you may cultivate my bit of land here", and one may have done so for 10 or 20 years. That is the sort of thing which I believe might very well lead to confusion. It is in everybody's interest that we should be very clear about this.
I would have thought that the word "let" would be in every sense better than the phrase,
"the purposes of the dwelling-house".
I do not like the word "purposes" very much. What are the purposes of dwelling-houses? How many acres of potatoes can I grow in order to serve,
"the purposes of a dwelling-house"?
There are a great many angles of that kind which one can develop. I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister can find words of slightly greater precision.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, again with the leave of the House, I should have thought that a development of acres of potatoes would not be reasonable at all and that very few courts would so hold. Nevertheless, I

1411
hear what my noble friend says. I should like to think about this point again. I certainly undertake so to do and will communicate with my noble friend and others in this respect.
Viscount Simon: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, can he explain this point to me? The amendment is proposing that the land has to be let in order to be included in the sale. The Bill says that the land must have been used by the tenant. What is the position supposing that the tenant and two other householders have common use of a drive which is used by the tenant? Can that drive be part of the sale?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, in a case such as the noble Viscount instances—and there may be others—I would say that wherever there is uncertainty, then if the point was pressed by either party the court would have to decide the position. If I am told that the answer is something else, then I shall certainly inform the noble Viscount.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I am very sympathetic to this very modest amendment but I am not at all sure that I can support the later amendment, Amendment No. 9A, which goes a little too far. After all, there are many house purchasers who are not former council house tenants and who have bought their property on the open market in the normal way. Nevertheless, they are perfectly happy to rent their garages, or to rent allotments, or to rent a small area of grazing. They find nothing at all inconvenient or onerous about such arrangements.
Why should people who are buying their houses under the right-to-buy scheme be placed in a better position than those who buy houses in the open market in the normal way? Why should they be permitted to buy from an unwilling vendor? This, after all, is the point, is it not? Why should they be permitted to buy from an unwilling vendor land which they have never in fact tenanted?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I am sure the Minister will appreciate that the House is interested in pursuing and exhausting this point. We are not quibbling about the cause or the purpose behind this clause, but the indications around the House are that "let" is preferable to the words which appear in the Bill.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Monson, that if we can be successful in pressing Amendment No. 9 in order to ensure that the Bill reads better, then that is what we would prefer. We are certainly not trying to strike out Clause 4; we are simply attempting to make it read better.
The Minister said that if there is any dispute, the courts must decide the matter. Why do we need to rely on the courts to decide the matter in many instances, if there is a dispute, or if people are not too sure about definitions, or if they are not sure about what constitutes reasonableness or unreasonableness? If it is the view of the House that "let" will be a better term to use in this illustration, then I am saying to the Minister that we ought to take account of that feeling.
1412
The Minister did not deal properly with the point I made about land that is separate from and not contiguous to the house; land which is in another place but is used by the tenant. I questioned whether such land would be subject to the 60 per cent. discount. My information is that such land would not be subject to the 60 per cent. discount that will apply in the case of the house.
We are far from satisfied. We can understand the purpose of Clause 4; but the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, which sought our support in this matter, can see a great deal of mischief occurring if the existing form of wording is not amended. I hope that the Minister will allow this amendment to be carried because otherwise we shall certainly press it to a Division.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I fear that I cannot help the noble Lord. I say again that I appreciate the argument he has put forward. I said to my noble friend that I will look at the wording he suggested, and I will certainly do so. But I cannot go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, wishes me to go.
6.17 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 9) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 69; Not-Contents, 97.

DIVISION NO. 2

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Jenkins of Putney, L.

Aylestone, L.

Kennet, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Birk, B.

Lawrence, L.

Bishopston, L.

Llewelyn Davies of Hastoe, B.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Longford, E.

Bottomley, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L.

Caradon, L.

Mishcon, L.

Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.

Molloy, L.

Collison, L.

Monson, L.

Craigavon, V.

Mountevans, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

Mulley, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Ogmore, L.

Denington, B.

Oram, L.

Diamond, L.

Phillips, B.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Ennals, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L [Teller.]

Evans of Claughton, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Sainsbury, L.

Fitt, L.

Seear, B.

Foot, L.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Serota, B.

Gallacher, L.

Shackleton, L.

Galpern, L.

Shinwell, L.

Gladwyn, L.

Simon, V.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Stallard, L.

Greenway, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Hale, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Hanworth, V.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Stone, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Underhill, L.

Jacques, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Jeger, B.

Young of Dartington, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Abercorn, D.

Bellwin, L.

Abinger, L.

Beloff, L.

Avon, E.

Belstead, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Birdwood, L.

1413

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Liverpool, E.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Long, V.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Lyell, L.

Broxbourne, L.

Mancroft, L.

Bruce-Gardyne, L.

Margadale, L.

Caithness, E.

Marley, L.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Cathcart, E.

Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon, L.

Chelwood, L.

Cockfield, L.

Merrivale, L.

Coleraine, L.

Mersey, V.

Croft, L.

Molson, L.

Daventry, V.

Morris, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Mottistone, L.

Digby, L

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Newall, L.

Dundee, E.

Norfolk, D.

Eccles, V.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Onslow, E.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Orkney, E.

Elton, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Enniskillen, E.

Pender, L.

Faithfull, B.

Portland, D.

Fanshawe of Richmond, L.

Radnor, E.

Gainford, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Gisborough, L.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Glanusk, L.

Redesdale, L.

Glasgow, E.

Renton, L.

Glenarthur, L.

St. Davids, V.

Gowrie, E.

Sandford, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Selkirk, E.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Somers, L.

Halsbury, E.

Spens, L.

Harmar-Nicholls, L.

Sudeley, L.

Harvington, L.

Swinfen, L.

Hives, L.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Holderness, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Trenchard, V.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Trumpington, B.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Vaizey, L.

Kemsley, V.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Killearn, L.

Vickers, B.

Lane-Fox, B.

Vivian, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Whitelaw, V.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
[Amendment No. 9A not moved.]
Clause 5 [Repayment of discount on early disposal]:
6.26 p.m.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 6, line 30, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I wonder whether I may suggest a slight adjustment in the order of taking these amendments. With Amendment No. 10 I should like to take Amendments Nos. 12, 18, 22, 25 to 29, 31 to 35, 117 to 127 (with the exclusion of 119 and 120), 129 to 133 (with the exclusion of 131 and 132), 137, 139, 140 and 142.
Amendment No. 12: Page 6, line 43, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by")
Amendment No. 18: Page 7, line 27, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by')
Amendment No. 22: Page 8, line 1, leave out ("not falling within") and insert ("which is not exempted by")
Amendment No. 25: Clause 8, page 10, line 41, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by")
Amendment No. 26: Page 11, line 24, leave out ("falling within") and insert ("exempted by")
Amendment No. 27: Page 11, line 31, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by")
1414
Amendment No. 28: Page 11, line 32, after ("Act") insert ("any")
Amendment No. 29: Page 11, line 39, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by")
Amendment No. 31: Clause 9, page 12, line 14, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by")
Amendment No. 32: Page 12, line 18, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by")
Amendment No. 33: Page 12, line 34, leave out ("falling within") and insert ("exempted by")
Amendment No. 34: Page 12, line 42, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by")
Amendment No. 35: Page 13, line 6, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by")
Amendment No. 117: Schedule 3, page 71, line 22, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by").
Amendment No. 118: Page 72, line 7, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 121: Page 72, line 31, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 122: Page 72, line 43, leave out ("not falling within") and insert ("which is not exempted by").
Amendment No. 123: Page 73, line 9, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by").
Amendment No. 124: Page 73, line 10, at end insert ("or").
Amendment No. 125: Page 73, line 11, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 126: Page 74, line 40, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 127: Page 74, line 45, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 129: Schedule 6, page 80, line 35, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by").
Amendment No. 130: Page 80, line 45, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 133: Page 81, line 26, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 137: Page 81, line 46, leave out ("not falling within") and insert ("which is not exempted by").
Amendment No. 139: Page 82, line 14, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by").
Amendment No. 140: Page 82, line 18, leave out ("falls within") and insert ("is exempted by").
Amendment No. 142: Page 82, line 26, leave out ("does not fall within") and insert ("is not exempted by").
When we debated in Committee the Question, Whether Clause 4, (now Clause 5) should stand part of the Bill, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, had some harsh words to say about the drafting of this particular clause. This large group of amendments is, in fact, an attempt to improve the drafting of the clause and to carry through these drafting changes to the other clauses and schedules containing similar provisions. I am sorry that in the time available it was not possible to consult the noble and learned Lord on the changes proposed by these amendments, and I look forward to hearing what he has to say in the hope that he will agree that they improve the clauses and schedules. I hope they meet with both his approval and that of your Lordships.
I know that the noble and learned Lord has tabled his own amendments to Clause 5, which I think can be taken separately, and to which I shall try to respond when I hear what the noble and learned Lord has to say about them. These Government amendments are drafting amendments. There are no substantive policy changes contained in them. I beg to move.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for dealing with this matter, and also for separating out these two sets of amendments. When I spoke on Clause 4 (as it was) standing part, the noble Lord twitted me genially with

1415
examining the nuts and bolts of the clause. I did indeed examine it in detail because it was really only by reading it over and over again, word by word, that I could understand what it was getting at. Apparently I was right in thinking that there was some cross-threading. This particular point arose out of my criticism of the words in what is now Clause 5, at page 6, line 30:
"does not fall within subsection (3A)".
As I understand it, what this clause does is virtually to repeat the 1980 Act in the new subsection (3), whereby the discount is repayable, and put in a new subsection (3A), in which the discount is not repayable, even though it falls at first blush within subsection (3). The noble Lord will tell me if I have it wrong.
My objection was that the new subsection (3A) is in positive terms but is in fact, as the Bill is printed, a negative, because it is governed by the word "not" which appears 13 lines before; so it means at first reading the opposite to what one thinks. So far as I know, it is only the Whips in another place who read things in that way, in a mirror language, owing to the curious way the Question is put there.
What the noble Lord has done seems to me very adroit but it does not completely meet the point. Instead of the words, "does not fall within", he has, "is not exempted by", so one still has the negative 13 lines before governing the new subsection (3A). But he has picked up the words, "is not exempted by", in the new subsection (3A) and in all the other provisions which are dealt with by this group of amendments. At this stage I cannot myself suggest any way in which there could be further improvement, and it seems to me that the draftsman has done it very adroitly.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I say at once that I should certainly not have the temerity to say that the noble and learned Lord was wrong in a field in which he has so much expertise and knowledge. We—including the draftsman and all others concerned—must, as always, consider very carefully what he says. Based upon his first remarks, my feeling is that he is actually right about the negative point. I say that not in surprise. Had it been otherwise, I should have been surprised. We accept without question that the noble and learned Lord is seeking to make sure that we have a Bill with the clearest possible wording so that there is no room for misunderstanding, or whatever. If the noble and learned Lord will allow me, I shall gladly undertake to take this away again in the light of what he has said to see whether we can get it even better in the last stages of the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Wootton of Abinger): My Lords, does the noble Lord wish to withdraw the amendment.?
Lord Bellwin: No, my Lords. If I may, I should like the House to agree to it at the present time with the undertaking that we shall look at it again and, if necessary, bring back another form of amendment on Third Reading.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
6.35 p.m.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale Lord Simon of Glaisdale moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 6. line 42, at end insert ("and for the purpose of this subsection a lease containing an option to renew which if exercised would make the total term more than twenty-one years shall be deemed to be for a term of more than twenty-one years").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in commenting in Committee on the details of the clause, I did not ask the noble Lord about subsection (3) because it repeats, I think, certainly in substance, the existing provision of the 1980 Act. But I did write to him about it. I asked one question: why 21 years? I ventured to point out a number of ways in which it seemed to me the provision could be evaded. There are now really quite big sums involved. The policy of the scheme of the Bill is that the discount should be repayable in certain circumstances. Obviously subsection (3A) is not sufficient by itself, because you can get round a conveyance or an assignment of the freehold by granting a long lease, and therefore paragraph (b) guards against that loophole.
Equally obviously, it would be very unfair to penalise the buying tenant by stipulating that the discount should be repayable if there were a very short lease. For example, there might be a construction worker who had exercised the right to buy. He might be offered a contract abroad, say, for five or seven years, and wish to let the house. It would be unjust in those circumstances to penalise him by clawing back the discount. Therefore, it was only a question of where one draws the line.
The noble Lord said it should be 21 years: that the line has to be drawn somewhere, and in their assessment, on the evidence that they have, that is the line of demarcation in general saleability. It seems to me that that is a valid argument. The line must be drawn somewhere. Of course, you will get anomalies on either side of the line, wherever you draw it. As for pointing out the way that the provision can be evaded, the noble Lord said that they had no evidence of substantial evasion since the 1980 Act. I have therefore not pursued any except one method of evasion.
Having decided that in the circumstances, under subsection (3), the discount should be repayable, it is obviously incumbent in the public interest to see that a coach and horses cannot be driven through this provision. It seemed to me that the easiest way to do it would be to grant a lease of 21 years with an option to renew. That is still not a lease of over 21 years but in fact it carries the lease for a term of beyond 21 years. That seems to me a very obvious loophole for two reasons. In the first place, solicitors and other conveyancers are very familiar, these days, with a short lease with an option to renew. In the second place, this particular loophole was closed in the 1967 Leasehold Reform Act.
I am quite willing and ready to be told that my drafting is defective. Certainly the closing of this particular loophole in 1967 was of an almost unbelievable complexity and I did not want to add to the complexity of what is already a highly complex Bill. I hope it will do. At any rate, the object is to see that a coach and horses should not be driven through subsection (3). My Lords, I beg to move.
Lord Evans of Claughton: My Lords, as a humble conveyancing solicitor, may I agree with the noble and learned Lord that you are really making an invitation, as a Government, here to encourage solicitors to start driving coaches and horses ail over the place. We witnessed in the recent Budget debates the closure of one of the means whereby solicitors have been using leases to avoid the payment of stamp duty; the Government have closed that loophole. I do really commend it to you. While I do not support the Government's legislation in general, I do beg of the Government to take into account what the noble and learned Lord has said, because otherwise you are now really making an open invitiation. Now that the invitation has been spoken about in your Lordships' House it is going to make it that much easier. I ask the Government to reconsider this matter and take it into account, as the noble and learned Lord has advised.
Lord Bellwin: My Lord, I say at once that I most certainly do take into account what the noble and learned Lord says, and I am not in the coach and horses business at all. May I just make one or two observations on this which I feel perhaps ought to be said. Of course, a principal purpose of Clause 5 is to add certain other categories of disposal to those that are exempt from this discount clawback provision. The amendment, as the noble and learned Lord has explained, does in fact operate on the basic definition of "disposal" for the purposes of the discount clawback provisions, which has been in force since 1980. The definition originally appears in Section 8(3) of the 1980 Act. A disposal is defined inter alia as—and I quote:
"the grant of a lease or sub-lease for a term of more than 21 years otherwise than at a rack rent".
As the noble and learned Lord has pointed out, it would therefore be theoretically possible for a tenant, who has purchased his dwelling-house under the right to buy, to grant within the five-year period after acquisition a lease of less than 21 years with an option to renew which would take the total period above 21 years and thereby avoid any obligation to repay discount.
I must say we are not aware that the loophole is being used to any great extent, but I think that we must, and we do, accept that it exists and we are certainly prepared to consider what we have to do to block it. It may well be that the solution proposed by the noble and learned Lord is the right one—it very likely is—but I would ask him if he would allow us to look at the wording of the amendment in more detail. He said he was prepared to be told that the drafting might be defective. All I can say is, not by me. Nevertheless, I do think that we would just like to have a look at the wording.
There will, for example, be a need for consequential amendments to Schedules 3 and 6, and we would like to see if we can bring forward appropriate amendments at Third Reading. In the light of this undertaking perhaps the noble and learned Lord would withdraw his amendment. May I say I am most grateful to him for bringing this forward, and I invite him so to do?
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I do not know whether I need to ask your Lordships' leave to say merely this. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Evans, for his support and I am very grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for his most forthcoming reply. I of course am very glad to leave the matter in his hands. I do not know whether I said this in opening. I did not deal with the other loopholes that I suggested to the noble Lord might be used, because I did not want to advertise them. But I think it would be a good thing if the noble Lord would keep his eye on those as well as trying to improve this aspect and make the consequential amendments. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 12:
[Printed earlier: col. 1413.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I took this with No. 10 and I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale Lord Simon of Glaisdale had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 13:
Page 7, line 1, leave out ("the person or").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment takes up a point I referred to in Committee. I corresponded with the noble Lord about it and he said that he has a re-draft which they were considering. As I could not find it at that time on the Order Paper—because in fact it was not there—I put down this amendment, which is less felicitous than what the draftsman has devised. Therefore, I do not move the amendment.
[Amendment No. 13 not moved.]
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Wootton of Abinger): Amendment No. 14. I must point out that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to move Amendment No. 15.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 7, line 3, leave out from beginning to end of line 10 and insert ("is a qualifying person").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this group of amendments is another attempt to improve the drafting of the clause in the light of the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, at the Committee stage. The group deals with the specific points that the noble and learned Lord raised on Section 8(3A)(a) of the 1980 Act, as inserted by Clause 5(2) of the Bill.
The noble and learned Lord pointed out that the paragraph as drafted appeared to contemplate a disposal by a person to himself, which of course is a legal impossibility. These amendments are designed to cure the fault in the drafting, and I hope that the noble and learned Lord will feel that they are an improvement. If he feels that we should go yet further, I should be very interested to hear what he has to say.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord. As I mentioned in Committee, without developing it, the draftsman had an extraordinarily difficult task over this. As I

1419
understand it, what he is dealing with is conveyances by joint owners. But he had to find something to latch on the spouse and the family and he did that by specifying "the person", but we ended up with the absurdity that we have the situation of a conveyance by a person to himself.
The draftsman has dealt with this very adroitly; not by curing the mischief but by hiding it a little! What we have still got, I think, is this: a person is a qualifying person if he is the person by whom it was made, and the person to whom it is made is a qualifying person. So you have still got—although hidden away decorously—the absurdity. I cannot myself suggest any way of getting over it, granted the draftsman's difficulty. But I would venture to submit to your Lordships that the draftsman is bound to get into this sort of difficulty if we persist in trying to draft in the most minute detail: trying to govern every possible contingency which might arise in direct derogation of the method recommended by the Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Renton.
I do welcome this as an improvement. At any rate, a legal absurdity is moved a little more out of the daylight. I should certainly like it looked at again although I cannot suggest, having regard to this method of drafting, any way of getting over the difficulties.
Lord Renton: My Lords, as this is an agreed matter I do not want to take up further time with it. I should simply like to endorse what my noble and learned friend Lord Simon of Glaisdale said, and say that I rejoice even more about the omission of the words proposed to be left out than at the insertion of the words to be included.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, what does one say after that except, yes, of course, we shall certainly want to look again and see if we can come up with something which makes it yet better.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 15 not moved.]
6.51 p.m.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale Lord Simon of Glaisdale moved Amendment No. 16:
Page 7, line 12, after ("person") insert ("or persons").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a slightly different point. In Committee I drew to your Lordships' attention that whereas in the 1980 Act there was an exception to the clawback of the discount whether the whole or part of the dwelling-house was disposed of, in the amendment it now has to be the whole. I gave your Lordships the example of an order under the Matrimonial Causes Act. When I corresponded with the noble Lord the Minister, he said that they had no evidence of part-disposals, and to deal with part-disposals would involve apportionment, which would in turn involve draftsmanship of incredible complexity. I think it would be of incredible complexity if this style of drafting is persisted in, but it would not in fact be difficult to say:
"And in the case of a part-conveyance the discount shall be apportioned in such proportion as shall be just",
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leaving it if necessary for the court to determine. I am not wholly satisfied with the Minister's explanation, and I should like to ask him if he will look at the matter again in the light of the particular amendment I have tabled.
To paragraph (b), line 11 on page 7, which reads:
"it is a vesting of the whole of the dwelling-house in a person taking under a will or on an intestacy;"
I have sought to add the words:
"or persons"
because what you might have is a will relating to, say, a two-storey house and devising the lower storey to one child and the upper storey to another or, for that matter, to two strangers. I cannot for the life of me see why it should be the whole of the dwelling-house in "a person". There is no point, obviously, in pursuing this matter, but, unless the Minister has a conclusive on-the-spot answer. I ask him to look at it again.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, once again I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his suggestions for improving the drafting of Clause 5 of the Bill. His suggestions have already resulted in some improvement in the intelligibility of the legislation as we have seen from earlier amendments. We shall wish to study more closely in Hansard when it appears exactly what he has just said and of course I shall be discussing it with him in due course.
The noble and learned Lord is rightly concerned with the consistency between the wording of paragraphs (a) and (b) of Section 8(3A) of the 1980 Act, as inserted by Clause 5(2) of the Bill. We rely, of course, on Section 6(c) of the Interpretation Act 1978 to achieve the correct result for section 8(3A)(b). Section 6(c) provides that,
"unless the contrary intention appears, words in the singular include the plural".
I must remember to use that somewhere else.
I am advised that, as the noble and learned Lord said, there is no evidence of a contrary intention here and that "a person" in Section 8(3A)(b) may be read as "persons" and so the right result is achieved.
There are special reasons for not relying upon Section 6(c) of the Interpretation Act 1978 in relation to Section 8(3A)(b). That provision has to cope with the possibility of disposals from one or more persons to one or more persons who may qualify for exemption from discount in a variety of ways. Those special considerations are not present in relation to Section 8(3A)(b) and I think we are therefore justified in relying upon Section 6(c) in that context. It might even be subversive to the application of Section 6(c) to other provisions of the legislation if we were to use the plural in Section 8(3A)(b).
Even so, quite clearly I want to look closely with the draftsman and others at what has been said by the noble and learned Lord, and this I gladly undertake to do with the same intent as with everything else he has raised and everything we have been discussing with the basic objective of making the Bill more intelligible. Of course, there are other provisions which are similarly worded which would be affected if the amendment were to be made, but we want to look at this carefully and I gladly undertake so to do.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for taking that line. I had, of course, considered whether the Interpretation Act would take care of the question. It seemed to me, reading the whole of the clause and in particular the subsection, that it could well be argued that the contrary intention does appear and that the singular is not intended to extend to the plural. Perhaps the noble Lord will consider this with the draftsman in the light of what I say. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.1 p.m.
Baroness Birk Baroness Birk moved Amendment No. 16A:
Page 7, line 24, leave out paragraph (e).
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this is really a question of asking the Minister for an explanation. It seems a rather extraordinary situation. Clause 5(3A)(e) removes the requirement to pay back discount if land is sold in under five years. Presumably, this would allow the speculative gain on the land. In the 1980 Act, Section 3(4) defines the kind of land that is dealt with. Section 8(3) sets out where discount has to be repaid. In the Bill that we are considering today that instruction or necessity to repay the discount is removed if land is sold in under five years. I want to know why that has been done, if I am right in understanding that it has been done. If it has not, I wonder whether there has been some mistake, or whether the Bill needs to be clarified.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot resist the temptation to point out the few words, "of this Act" in the paragraph to which the amendment relates. I should point out once again that unless this Act, as it will be, goes out consolidated, that will he entirely misleading. It is not this Act; it is the 1980 Act to which reference is made.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, once again I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for making that point, which I shall certainly take up. As the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, has explained, this amendment would delete paragraph (e) in the new subsection (3A). The purpose of the paragraph is to exempt disposals of land, other than the dwellinghouse itself, from the normal discount repayment provisions. I can perhaps briefly explain, I hope, why we included that provision in Clause 5.
We have seen a number of cases, some of them put to us by the local authority associations, where right-to-buy purchasers wish to sell a small area of garden land for an obviously sensible reason. They may, for instance, simply want to realign garden boundaries or to assist with a road widening scheme. Under the present rule in the 1980 Act they find that if they do so within five years of the right-to-buy purchase, they are liable to repay in toto whatever amount of discount is currently repayable on their home according to the normal sliding scale. This could mean that they face an obligation to repay several thousand pounds to the council despite the fact that the value of the garden land involved is only a few hundred pounds, or even less.
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I can give an illustration of the kind of difficulty that results. Your Lordships will recall that a year ago a very large council estate on the outskirts of Liverpool, the Cantril Farm Estate—which the noble Lord, Lord Evans, will know very well, as indeed will the noble Lord, Lord Sefton—was conveyed from Knowsley council to the Stockbridge Village Trust. This is a pioneering enterprise which offers great potential for the regeneration of an estate that has suffered severe problems. Were the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, to be in his place, I would strongly recommend him to visit the estate to see exactly what is being done there. Indeed, many of your Lordships who are interested in where we go from here in housing, would, I suggest, hardly find a better place to see what really can, and is, being done. It is quite staggering in its impact. That is, however, for another time.
One of the projects which the trust has come up with is a redesign of part of the road network on the estate, to give residents a more satisfactory living environment. The redesign of the road layout requires some of the residents to give up small areas of their gardens. Some of the residents are people who have bought their homes under the right to buy within the last five years. The residents are willing to co-operate with the trust but, as I explained, have found that if they do so and part with small areas of their gardens, they will be liable to repay thousands of pounds of discount to Knowsley council. The result is that, unless this provision in Clause 5 is enacted, the whole scheme may be stymied until the residents' discount repayment period expires. Clearly, that cannot be right. I am convinced that it should be removed. Indeed, I am most surprised that noble Lords opposite appear not to agree with this. The noble Baroness made this point—
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I said that, as I read it, I did not understand it.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, if the noble Baroness says she did not understand it, I withdraw absolutely the last point. Probably, we should have made it clearer. I take the responsibility for it not having been made sufficiently clear. In view of the fact that I have now made it clearer I hope that I need not make any further points and that the noble Baroness will not wish to proceed.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, there is one question that I am not clear about. Obviously, no one would go against the example that the Minister gave. But are there controls or constraints? Is there wholesale removal of the requirement to pay back discount if land is sold in under five years? If that is a general concession, it seems to me a rather dangerous one. How is it restricted so that it only extends to the type of example that the Minister gave? That is what concerns me.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, by leave of the House, and again in the interests of time I would say that it seems that this is an area that I should like to discuss with the noble Baroness. So far as I am concerned, we are talking here about small disposals, involving small sums of money—nothing more than that. I am satisfied that when we discuss it in depth with the

1423
noble Baroness, she will go along with this. In reply to the point that she raised, I would say that if the land does not include the dwellinghouse itself, the answer is, yes, it is so.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 7, line 27, at beginning insert—
("For the purposes of subsection (3A)(a) above a person is a qualifying person in relation to a disposal if he—

(a) is the person or one of the persons by whom it is made;

(b) is the spouse or a former spouse of that person or one of those persons; or

(c) is a member of the family of that person or one of those persons and has resided with him throughout the period of twelve months ending with the disposal.

(3C)").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment was discussed with Amendment No. 14.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 18:
[Printed earlier: col. 1413.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment was taken with Amendment No. 10.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 19:
Page 7, line 35, leave out ("After subsection (4) of that section") and insert—
("In subsection (4) of that section for the words "specified in" there shall be substituted the words "falling within".
(3A) After that subsection").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with this amendment I should like to take Amendments Nos. 20, 21, 134. 135, 136 and 150.
Amendment No. 20: Page 7, line 38, leave out ("specified in") and insert ("falling within").
Amendment No. 21: Page 7, line 42, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
("(4) For subsection (5) of that section there shall be substituted the following subsections—
"(5) The bodies referred to in subsections (4)(b) and (4A) above are—

(a) the Housing Corporation;

(b) any building society;

(c) any body falling within paragraphs 6 to 9 of the Schedule to the Home Purchase Assistance and Housing Corporation Guarantee Act 1978; and

(d) any body specified or of a class or description specified in an order made by the Secretary of State with the consent of the Treasury.

(5A) Before making an order under subsection (5) above varying or revoking an order previously made, the Secretary of State shall give an opportunity for representations to be made on behalf of any body which, if the order were made, would cease to be a body falling within that subsection.".").
Amendment No. 134: Schedule 6, page 81, line 34, leave out ("After subsection (5) of that section") and insert—
("In subsection (5) of that section for the words "specified in" there shall be substituted the words "falling within".
(3A) After that subsection").
Amendment No. 135: Page 81, line 37, leave out ("specified in") and insert ("falling within").
Amendment No. 136: Page 81, line 41, leave out sub-paragraph (4) and insert—
("(4) For subsection (6) of that section there shall be substituted the following subsection—
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"(6) The bodies referred to in subsections (5)(b) and (5A) above are—

(a) any building society;

(b) any body falling within paragraphs 6 to 9 of the Schedule to the Home Purchase Assistance and Housing Corporation Guarantee Act 1978; and

(c) any body specified or of a class or description specified in an order made under section 8(5) of the Housing Act 1980.".").

Amendment No. 150: Schedule 11, page 96, line 11, at end insert—
("24A. In section 151(1) of that Act (regulations and orders) after the word "section", in the second place where it occurs, there shall be inserted the word "8(5)".").
These amendments deal with a matter on which representations have been put to us during the course of this Bill. I do not believe that they are controversial. I hope that your Lordships will be prepared to accept them at this stage. I shall explain their purpose as briefly as I can. Under the Housing Act 1980, if a right-to-buy property is resold within five years, the former landlord is entitled to repayment of part of, or all, the discount on the original sale. If there is a mortgage on the property in connection with the original purchase, repayment of the mortgage loan takes priority over the repayment of discount, provided that the lender is one of the types specified in the Act. These include building societies, banks and insurance companies. Clause 5 extends this provision to cover mortgage loans taken to refinance a previous local authority mortgage.
Most mortgage lenders are covered by the provisions of the Act, but there are some who do not fall within any of the categories at present specified. Such lenders, even though they may in principle wish to lend on council house sales or to refinance local authority mortgages, may in practice be reluctant to do so since a property on which the discount has first to be repaid is not as good a security for a loan. These amendments would make it possible for such bodies to lend more freely for these purposes by giving the Secretary of State the power to make an order extending the list of lenders whose mortgages take priority over repayment of discount.
There is more in the same vein, but basically that is the intention. The amendments are broadly paralleled by those to Schedule 6, which amends the Housing Act 1957 in respect of voluntary sales of public sector houses. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 20:
[Printed earlier: col. 1423.]
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I wonder whether at some stage the House is going to adjourn? We are only seeking guidance: it is not that we want to run away from any battle. But there are other people here who I think are even more anxious than we are to know where they stand.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I appreciate the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Graham, but I should tell him that the usual channels are currently consulting, and as soon as I have something to tell the House I shall certainly report it.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 21:
[Printed earlier: col. 1423.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment was taken with Amendment No. 19. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 22:
[Printed earlier: col. 1413 .]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment was taken with Amendment No. 10. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Denham: My Lords, I think that this is probably a convenient moment to adjourn the Report stage for dinner. In moving that futher consideration on Report be now adjourned, perhaps it would be fair to tell the House that we shall not resume the Report stage before ten minutes past eight. I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]
7.14 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 1 [Discrimination on grounds of disability]:
The Earl of Longford The Earl of Longford moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 7, after ("discriminate") insert ("unreasonably").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I hope that this amendment meets the points that were raised at our last meeting, particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, who is not here, and the noble Lord, Lord Renton. After all the hard work that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has put in on the Bill, I find it very pleasant to be able to meet him on one point to which I know he attaches importance.
On the last occasion the noble Lord, Lord Renton, at col. 970 of Hansard on Friday, 24th February, said:
"it should be made clear at the very outset of the Bill, in Clause 1, that it is unreasonable discrimination that the noble Earl and those who support him on the Bill are trying to prevent".
We are meeting the noble Lord on that point by including the word "unreasonably". Whereas at present Clause 1 says that:
"It is unlawful for a person to discriminate against another person on the grounds of disability",
if this amendment is carried it will read:
"It is unlawful for a person to discriminate unreasonably against another person on the grounds of disability".
I expressed a certain sympathy with this last time, but I was aware then that there were some people who would say that discrimination itself is unreasonable and that therefore it is weakening the idea of discrimination if we include this word. However, having looked it up in the dictionary I am sure that discrimination itself does not involve unfairness—at least according to the dictionary.
If we take the phrase "to discriminate against", there are various meanings in the dictionary, but the one I quote is:
"to make an adverse distinction with regard to".
So discrimination means making an adverse distinction, but it does not necessarily mean, on the face of it, making an unfair or unreasonable distinction. Therefore, without more ado I am happy to propose that the word "unreasonably" be included. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I should like to say that I think that the noble Earl has been wise to table this amendment, and I hope that your Lordships will accept it. My own experience in a long life has been that discrimination in favour of people is a much more frequent occurrence than discrimination against them. So this matter did most certainly require clarification, and the noble Earl's amendment provides it.
May I say while I am on my feet that I have tabled no amendments for the Report stage, partly because I wanted to see how the noble Earl's amendments went but also because in the reality of things one knows that this Bill will not get on to the statute book, and I happen to be somewhat preoccupied with other legislation.
Baroness Darcy (de Knayth): My Lords, I am not completely happy with the amendment, mainly because it allows the idea of reasonable discrimination; but I know that, as the noble Earl, Lord Longford, has said, at Committee stage a great many people were very worried, including, as the noble Earl mentioned, my noble friend Lady Masham, who I am afraid cannot be here today because she has a very important meeting.
But if your Lordships will allow me, I should like to refer also to my amendment to Clause 9—namely, Amendment No. 7—which I feel would be essential if the noble Earl's amendment is accepted.
Amendment No. 7: Clause 9, page 4, line 29, after ("discriminates") insert ("unreasonably").
My Amendment No. 7 would make the definition of discrimination in Clause 9 apply to unreasonable discrimination. I think that the noble Earl and I are agreed that the behaviour outlined in Clause 9 is what we are seeking to make unlawful, whatever it may be called. Indeed, it is not really very important what it is called. What is very important is that Clause 1 and Clause 9 should use the same words.
I should like to draw a parallel to illustrate what I mean, and I hope it is an exact parallel. Let us suppose that we want to stop people shouting and seriously disturbing other people, and so we decide that 70 decibels is a noise that is as loud as people can reasonably bear and, therefore, we define "shouting" as anything above 70 decibels. However, we then say that it is unlawful to shout loudly. If "shouting" is anything over 70 decibels, then presumably "shouting loudly" must start at a higher pitch. So not all levels of noise contained in the definition would be unlawful, although that was the intention. That is my fear as regards this Bill. If we state that unreasonable discrimination is unlawful, and then define, under "discrimination", the behaviour that we are trying to outlaw, it

1427
is possible that not everything contained in the definition will be unlawful, although that was what was intended. I hope that I have not made your Lordships more muddled than you were already.
I have had to go into this matter at length because this is the Report stage, and I cannot speak again to the noble Earl's amendment. I look forward to hearing what he has to say and how he feels about my amendment. If he has no objection to my amendment, then I shall not object to his amendment because I appreciate the reasons for which it has been put forward. However, I submit that we should not have one amendment without the other.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, am I allowed to speak twice at the Report stage?
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Nugent of Guildford): Yes, my Lords, with the leave of the House.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, I have no objection to the suggestion of the noble Baroness. If at some later point, when this Bill is drawing even nearer to the statute book than is expected by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, some lawyer comes along and says that we must have another look, then we shall have to have another look. But at the moment I am happy with this.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Ennals Lord Ennals moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 9, leave out ("relates") and insert ("applies").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is entirely a technical amendment and merely brings the wording in Clause 1 into line with the rest of the Bill. It had been the intention to do so at Committee stage but we failed to do so. After saying that I would then have sat down had not the noble Lord, Lord Renton, made his comment that it is not really worth while putting down amendments because this is the end of the Bill. I just want to say that I do not think that we in this House should ever take that assumption at all.
We are in this House, I would submit to noble Lords, seeking to act as legislators. The other place did not reject the Bill. It did not have a Second Reading but it was not rejected on Second Reading. Opportunities may occur in another place. Our task is to hand it on to another place, and if another place does not accept it, to have ready to present here again a Bill in as good a form as it can be. If I agreed with the noble Lord I would not have taken the trouble, together with my noble friend and the noble Baroness, to move even a technical amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Ennals Lord Ennals moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 1, line 9, at end insert—
("() In this Act "disability" means—

(a) any restriction or lack of ability to perform an activity in the manner or within the range considered normal, such restriction or lack of ability being on account of any psychological, physiological or anatomical structure or function; or

(b) any severe disfigurement.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, noble Lords who are here will remember that in Committee I sought to introduce on behalf of my noble friend a definition of "disability". I argued that it was good to have it early
1428
in the Bill, and that it was a better and more clearly defined form of words than appears in Clause 5(1)(b). The wording that I sought to move then came in for some considerable criticism from the noble Lord, Lord Renton, although he generously said at col. 978 of Hansard on 24th February that he had some sympathy,
"with the method of drafting which brings definitions to the front of the Bill".
This is why I thought it was right to come back with a new definition.
The definition that was debated at Committee stage was criticised not only by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, but by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton. I said then, when withdrawing it, that my noble friend and I would consider the question again and come back. We feel strongly, and in this RADAR—the Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation—also feels that there needs to be in the Bill a clear definition of "disability". If there is no definition the adjudicating authorities will interpret the term "disability" according to its normal usage, which is simply loss of function.
Clearly the definition was under strong criticism. The purpose of Report and Committee stages is to try to make improvements and to meet the arguments presented. The noble Lord, Lord Renton, at col. 978, said:
"his definition is too broadly drawn. If, for example, we look at paragraph (a) 'the total or partial loss of any function of the body or mind' ".
He thought that was too broad. He also criticised the paragraph (c) which had been proposed:
"the malfunctioning or disfigurement of any part of the body or mind".
So I thought that we had to start again.
My noble friend Lord Longford and I went and had a look, and consulted with the Disablement Income Group, and with its secretary, Peter Large, who was of course the chairman of CORAD, which is the basis of this Bill, and so we have tried again. The definition which is now tabled in the name of my noble friend together with that of the noble Baroness is in fact the definition of the international classification of impairments, disabilities and handicaps adopted by the World Health Organisation in 1980. The first part of the wording is taken directly from their definition of impairment and disability.
The words "severe disfigurement" were not included in that definition, but it was the general view of those who spoke in the Committee that severe disfigurement should be included, and I think no one will want to go back on that. If a person lacks ability to perform some activity then he, or she, cannot be deemed to be discriminated against if they are turned down for a job because they lack this ability, provided always that the activity in question is strictly essential for the work in hand. Some people may otherwise find the definition confusing in the context of antidiscrimination legislation.
I hope that this simpler definition may commend itself to the noble Lord, Lord Renton. I wish it would commend itself to the Government, but I suspect that the noble Lord is going to maintain silence during his lunch and dinner break as he did before, so it is with pleasure that I beg to move this amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Norwich: My Lords, I should like to give general support for this amendment on two grounds. First, it is proper from these Benches that we should have a particular concern with all disadvantaged people, and in particular the chronically sick and disabled. I see the problem of the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, of Norwich, in trying to draw the definition so closely as in paragraph (a), and how easy it is for us to see the difficulty there in finding a specific method. But with the goodwill of the House this looks as though it is as good as we shall get if we are going to define closely, despite what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, was saying to us in the earlier debate about the difficulties of close definition.
The second reason why I should like to support this amendment is that if it brings us into line with other parts of Europe that is good. The third reason is because I am glad that the noble Lord, the noble Baroness, and the noble Earl have added "any severe disfigurement", because this is where isolation comes in so much. When people become isolated from their fellows because of their sensitivity concerning a severe disfigurement, then great distress is caused to them and it is our task to try to care for people like that.
I use one illustration, and with that I finish. I live in the city of Norwich, which the noble Lord has attached to his title—and rightly too, because he served the city of Norwich magnificently, and he and I have both been taught karate there, have we not? But that is another story. The noble Lord will know as an example that we have in Norwich the _Priscilla Bacon lodge, which cares for people mostly with cancer, and it is widely supported. It is a most caring and wonderful place, and probably one of the lights which shine in the dark area of cancer. There is nothing but tremendous support and encouragement for that. It is all part of our National Health Service although set up first and foremost by Cancer Relief.
On the other half of that same area of the old Colman Hospital is our Caroline House for chronically young sick. The difficulty we have in getting people concerned with, supporting, visiting, and being present at Caroline House—and they are all in the same compound—is so great that anything that your Lordships can do in this way to highlight the need of caring for chronically sick and disabled, particularly through this phrase "any severe disfigurement", and helping to continue to make them part of the whole community, as opposed to the danger of just laying them on one side, is good. I hope that in general terms, even if there are defects concerning paragraph (a), your Lordships will support this amendment.
Lord Renton: My Lords, may I first say, as I did before, that if a definition is to come it should come early in the Bill; and that is right. I find that this definition omits mental handicap and mental illness. Coupled with Amendment No. 6 this appears to be the deliberate intention of the noble Earl and the noble Lord, Lord Ennals. In view of what I said at Second Reading and Committee, I can but welcome that omission, if that is a thing that can be done.
Having said that, I wonder whether I may make one or two comments—
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? I may have misunderstood him, but did he say that he is now under the impression that we are anxious to omit the mentally handicapped? That is not my intention.
7.30 p.m.
Lord Renton: My Lords, in that case, I am afraid that the noble Earl has done something that he did not intend, because in this definition there is no mention of mental handicap, mental impairment or mental illness. The nearest we get to it is "psychological … function", whatever that may be. Perhaps the noble Earl or the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, if he has leave of the House to reply to this short debate, could explain what "psychological function" means. One has to bear in mind that the first part of the paragraph down to the word "normal" after which the comma appears, is qualified by the second part of the paragraph. If I may, I will read it:
"Such restriction or lack of ability to perform an activity being on account of any psychological, physiological or anatomical structure or function".
The word "mental" is not included in any of those three phrases. Clearly the result—which I must welcome in view of what I said about the difficulties of this concerning those suffering from mental handicap; I think the same applies in many cases to those suffering from mental illness—is that they would not be included in the Bill.
The drafting of this is something that I have not seen before. I find it unusual in the context of our legislative expressions. I strongly suspect that this result in our language has been achieved by an attempted translation from the French, in which so many of these continental documents and pieces of legislation are at first drafted. The French becomes the master form. Anything after that, even when put into our own famous language, is not the master form, but has to follow suit. I find the result strange. Therefore I could not commit myself to the drafting of this, although I see that a valiant effort has been made.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Renton, for raising this matter. I want to emphasise the point made by my noble friend Lord Longford that there is no intention here, nor do I think the words so imply, to exclude the mentally handicapped from the Bill. If the noble Lord, Lord Renton, looks carefully he will see the words:
"the lack of ability to perform an activity in the manner or within the range considered normal".
That is the first point.
The problem that mentally handicapped people face is precisely that. They are not able to perform an activity,
"in the manner or within the range"
in which people who are normal and not mentally handicapped are able to operate. In that definition there is no reason to say that this excludes the mentally handicapped. The question is: what is someone who is mentally handicapped?
The largest group of mentally handicapped are, I suppose those with Down's syndrome. One might find

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that they would be covered by all three terms, certainly by "physiological" and "anatomical" structure or function. There is a clear medical reason, a clearly-defined condition of Down's syndrome, which the noble Lord will know far better than I, which is a structural problem. We need not go into the details of that but I think no court considering these words—and I hope, as I said at Committee stage, that none of these issues will come before the court but we have to be prepared for them—would decide that that definition would exclude the mentally handicapped.
The question arises whether it would exclude the mentally ill. Let us, for example, take schizophrenia. If such a mental illness makes these people unable to perform,
"an activity in the manner or within the range considered normal",
and if within that definition a schizophrenic is unable to perform certain functions because of his condition, maybe the defective chemical balance within the system would allow him to be included. Psychological reasons might include certain other categories of mental illness. I do not accept, as the noble Lord suggested, that the wording, either deliberately or in fact, excludes the mentally handicapped or the mentally ill.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 2 [Appointment and duties of Disablement Commission]:
Baroness Darcy (de Knayth)Baroness Darcy (de Knayth) moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 2, line 14, leave out from ("disabled") to end of line 15.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment is moved because we feel that the words we are seeking to leave out are totally unnecessary. We are striking out the words,
"and whose various disabilities are those to which the Act applies."
I think they are tautologous and I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of Longford The Earl of Longford moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 2, line 15, at end insert ("or people who are qualified to represent such disabled people.")
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I move this amendment with less confidence than I had on the other amendments. I do not think that it is perfect in its present form, and it is not easy to get it right. I think the noble Baroness may have a suggestion which may persuade me to bring in a proposal on her lines at the next stage.
I had better explain the difficulty. I am assuming, if the noble Lord, Lord Renton, will allow me to do so, that the Bill covers the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped. It was drawn up on that assumption. If by way of some legal advice we are told that that is not so, even at the last stage we might have to include some other words. But taking it as it is intended to cover the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped, we are faced with the problem of whether we can seriously propose that some of the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped should serve on the commission. It is obvious that the mentally handicapped would not themselves be able to serve on
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the commission. It is almost as obvious that the mentally ill could not serve, though that may be argued at some length.
On the other hand, it is perfectly obvious that the physically handicapped can, and should be allowed to, serve on the commission; and so some slightly complex formula has to be found. I am not happy about my suggestion because I am saying it makes good sense that half the members of the commission should be disabled or people qualified to represent disabled persons. If there were 12 people on the commission, it might mean that six were disabled or were qualified to represent them. That could mean that all six were qualified to represent them or were members of the estimable societies which have been referred to. In other words, under this phrasing it would be possible that there would be no disabled people on the commission. I feel that slightly different words are necessary. It may be that the noble Baroness would care to unfold her own idea, which sounded to me to be a good one, and if the House thinks fit, I could bring it up at Third Reading.
Baroness Darcy (de Knayth): My Lords, I was very worried when I first saw this amendment, and then I realised that the noble Earl, Lord Longford, was probably trying to meet the noble Lord, Lord Renton, who had been worried about the question of the mentally handicapped and the mentally ill being represented on the commission. Actually, I think that it is perhaps a bit much to ask that half of the total number on the commission should themselves be disabled. I think that that half should be composed of at least two disabled people and some qualified to represent them. I have a suggestion as to a provision which if perhaps, I may read it out, the noble Earl will consider whether it would be a good idea to bring it forward at Third Reading. It would read:
"At least one-half the total number of members of the Commission shall consist of two or more people who are themselves disabled and other people qualified to represent such disabled people whose various disabilities are those with which the Act complies".
I think that the words,
"whose various disabilities are those with which the Act complies"
could be left out, as we left them out earlier on.
Lord Ennals: My Lords, I would have difficulty even with the words that have been proposed by the noble Baroness. We could then find ourselves in a situation with a commission of 12 and with only two disabled people on it. I do not think that that is enough. If she decides to have four, then two of the group would represent the mentally handicapped. I should be happy with that, though we cannot do that at this stage. That is clear. It would have to be a Third Reading amendment, and I hope that the combined brilliance of noble Baronesses and noble Lords can then come up with an appropriate amendment.
Lord Renton: My Lords, with respect, I think the noble Earl has got this right.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, it would seem to me the best course would be to withdraw the amendment, giving notice that I shall be bringing forward an amendment analogous to this one, if not an improvement on it, at the next stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 [Regulations of Secretary of State as to scope of Act]:
Lord Ennals Lord Ennals moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 3, line I, leave out paragraph (b).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a very simple amendment. This particular definition was retained at Committee stage, though I had an amendment on the Marshalled List to delete it. But I left it in so that there could be a definition. Now that we have agreed, early on in the debate, on a new definition, it clearly would be confusing to retain the second definition. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 9 [Meaning of "discrimination"):
The Baroness Darcy (de Knayth)The Baroness Darcy (de Knayth) moved Amendment No. 7:
[Printed earlier: col. 1426.]
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 8 not moved.]
Lord Ennals Lord Ennals moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 5, line 9, leave out subsection (2).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, now that we have added the word, "unreasonable" before "discrimination" in Clause I, there would seem to be no need to have this kind of let-out subsection. With both the word, "unreasonable" and this subsection in the Bill, there would be too many opportunities for acts of discrimination to be allowed to remain lawful. If it is thought essential to retain the subsection—and I hope that it will not be—then we could think of another form of words. I believe that the subsection now, together with the special powers of the Secretary of State, is not required and that it would excessively weaken the Bill in the light of the amendments already approved in the course of tonight's debate. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I am sure that this is right, but I have to confess that the business moves so much faster than does my mind that I did not understand why it was that Amendment No. 7, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy (de Knayth), was not agreed to. Perhaps it is too late for me to complain about this, but I think that it was a very good amendment and should have been agreed to.
Baroness Darcy (de Knayth): My Lords, I had already spoken to Amendment No. 7 on Amendment No. 1. The Question was put and it was agreed to.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.10 p.m.
Moved accordingly and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The sitting was suspended from 7.45 until 8.10 p.m.]

Future Business: Telecommunications Bill
Lord Denham: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make a business statement. It may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that it has been agreed through the usual channels that the Third Reading of the Telecommunications Bill should be postponed from next Tuesday, 27th March, until next Thursday, 29th March, in view of the fact that the reprinted Bill will not now be available until tomorrow at the earliest. It is proposed that the Third Reading should be taken immediately after the consideration of the Commons Reason for disagreeing to the Lords amendment to the Education (Grants and Awards) Bill.

Housing and Building Control Bill
Further considered on Report.
Clause 7 [Terms of conveyance or grant]:
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 23:
Page 10, line 3, leave out ("paragraph") and insert ("paragraphs 16 and").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with Amendment No. 23 I should like to speak to Amendment No. 24.
Amendment No. 24: Page 10, line 4, leave out ("paragraph") and insert ("paragraphs—
"16. A provision is not void by virtue of paragraph 15 above in so far as it requires the tenant to bear a reasonable part of—

(a) the costs of carrying out repairs not amounting to the making good of structural defects;

(b) the costs of making good any structural defects falling within paragraph 17 below; or

(c) where the lease acknowledges the right of the tenant and his successors in title to production of the relevant policy, the costs of insuring against risks involving such repairs or the making good of such defects.").

I hope these amendments need not detain us long. They are being brought forward by the Government following representations made at Commons Committee stage by one of the Opposition spokesmen, the honourable Member for Norwood, which the Government undertook to consider further. A landlord may include in the right-to-buy lease a covenant requiring the purchaser to contribute towards the cost of insurance of the building. It was suggested that a right-to-buy purchaser seeking a private sector mortgage might have to insure the property twice if the landlord/freeholder refused to produce his insurance policy to satisfy the building society that the property was properly insured.
The purpose of these amendments is therefore to provide that a right-to-buy purchaser may only be required to contribute towards the insurance costs incurred by the landlord if the lease provides an express right for the purchaser, and his successors in title, to inspect the insurance policy. We think this is a sensible move. A right-to-buy purchaser should know what he is being required to pay for, and also the extent of his insurance cover. There may be cases, for example, where he would consider the cover to be inadequate and wish to take out additional protection. I hope your Lordships will agree that these amendments are sensible and that they should be made. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 24:
[Printed above.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this was taken with Amendment No. 23, and I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 8 [Dwelling-houses suitable for occupation by persons of pensionable age]:
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendments Nos. 25 to 29:
[Printed earlier: cols. 1413–1414.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, if I may, I should like to move Amendments Nos. 25, 26, 27, 28 and 29 en bloc. They were taken with Amendment No. 10.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Baroness Birk Baroness Birk moved Amendment No. 30:
Leave out Clause 8.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment to leave out Clause 8 arose from what happened in Committee when an amendment was carried to Clause 2, defining the houses for the elderly that should be exempt from the right to buy. It really makes rather a nonsense of the Bill to have these two things in side by side. It is quite inconsistent with the elderly persons' exclusion and it would create a tremendous amount of confusion. If this remained in the Bill there would now be three definitions of housing for the elderly. There would be the exclusion and definition in Clause 2(4), the sheltered definition and exclusion in Clause 2(3), and the pre-emption clause and separate definition in Clause 8.
This can only cause tremendous trouble and concern and it would have to be sorted out quite unnecessarily by the courts. There are these inconsistencies. Those of us who were seeking to change the Bill did so—and noble Lords will remember that Members from all parts of the House voted on the amendment to Clause 2 to remove the provision from the Bill. I am sure the Minister will recall that it came up late that night on Committee and we all decided not to go into it then because not only was it late—it is late now—but I think that everybody was pretty tired by that time and it did not seem possible to consider the matter really thoroughly.
In doing this, we realised, as I have no doubt the Minister will point out, that a number of houses which might otherwise have been subject to the pre-emption clause could now be sold. This is because the definition of "elderly persons' accommodation" is wider in Clause 8 than that which was accepted during the Committee stage and incorporated in Clause 2(4). Nevertheless, in moving this deletion we are seeking consistency, and also—I believe the Minister should appreciate this and find the amendment almost irresistible—we are allowing a considerable number of properties to enter the area of the right to buy.
We also believe that Clause 8 should be removed from the Bill. Apart from its legal and definition inconsistencies, bringing in pre-emption on the side, it really is unworkable. As we know, there are a number of problems with pre-emption and if we go back again to the 1980 Act, which is always with us—as we have been very often reminded, quite rightly, by the noble
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and learned Lord, Lord Simon—we spend our time fingering through that Act, which is always described as "this Act". So we are aware of that.
Also, when the original amendment was voted on here and was altered in another place, the alternative of a pre-emption clause was turned down. That was the judgment of the majority of your Lordships in this House, and it was recognised because of the number of problems with pre-emption. A house can be lost for ever to elderly people because it need never be put up for sale within the 21 years, and in most cases it would take very much longer for the house to come back to the local authority. It could be let or otherwise occupied, and that would lead to all sorts of difficulties. And then local authorities, and particularly the smaller ones in rural areas, may not be able to offer repurchase.
If the house is not sold within the 21-year preemption period, the right of pre-emption is lost for ever. The house could be sold without the local authority's knowledge because the elderly preemption does not contain a requirement to register as a local land charge. If this happens there is no redress. It is possible to bring in more legislation to deal with this, but one would have thought, when the whole thing is unnecessary and inconsistent, that that is the last thing one would want to do.
Further, certain sales would not be subject to preemption—for example, if the house is disposed of through a will or through a decision of a matrimonial court—and pre-emption would not apply to any land sold with the house. That is covered by this Bill. Under the pre-emption arrangements, the house would remain in the hands of the purchasing tenant, or his or her successors or relatives, until it was put up for sale, which could go on for 21 years. If the house was in the ownership of a local authority, it would become available for letting as soon as it was vacated by either a disabled person, who comes within the terms of the other amendment which was passed, or an elderly person. In many cases, any successor might be offered a management transfer by the local authority if the house was needed. Therefore, the house or flat would be reserved for the elderly. This means that the timescale could be very much shorter and the demand for accommodation for the elderly or disabled could be met.
But once sold, subject to any mortgage restrictions if it was not sold outright, the elderly occupant or, much more likely, his or her successors in title would be able to let the house on a commercial basis as a holiday let, to students or for any other purpose. This may well prove attractive to relatives who succeed, particularly if the house is in a rural or seaside location, which may make letting attractive. It was this that caused so much concern to many noble Lords who live in and know rural areas very well. They were very concerned about what would happen to the housing there, and took the view—because the pre-emption clause was already in the Bill, so it was already on offer—that this was not a solution, which was the reason why the other amendment proved successful. This would make it extremely difficult for this to be done successfully.
The removal of this clause is entirely logical. It is completely illogical to have this clause in the Bill side by side with the amendment in Clause 2, which is no

1437
longer an amendment but is now a substantive part of the Bill. While I suspect that the Minister will resist this attempt to take it out of the Bill, I would say that there is one way in which, if he wishes to retain Clause 8 with all its inconsistencies and with the legal problems which can be attached to it, he can do so. He should give an assurance that the Government, in keeping Clause 8 in the Bill, will at the same time make no attempt to remove or modify the exemption in Clause 2(4), which was won during the Committee stage. Secondly, he should say that all steps will be taken to ensure that the exemption in Clause 2(4) has priority in the legal sense over Clause 8, and that Clause 8 will apply only to those additional dwellings that are not exempted through Clause 2(4).
If the Government are prepared to do that and will accept that, though there may be inconsistency or confusion, they are prepared to work it out—but do not touch the amendment that was won in Committee—then it would be fair enough to leave it to the Government to deal with it, if they want both in the Bill. I do not think it makes a great deal of sense, but that is one of the alternatives.
When we discussed this matter the last itme on this Bill, and certainly in 1980, there were clear alternatives—the exemption from the right to buy and also, at the same time, the pre-emption clauses—and on both occasions the House came down in favour of the exemption from the right to buy for elderly people. So what I am putting forward in this amendment is that Clause 8 should be left out of the Bill because it is now completely otiose and unnecessary, and will create great confusion. My Lords, I beg to move.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, if the intention of the noble Baroness is simply to tidy up the Bill and to remove the apparent conflict between Clause 2(4) and Clause 8, then I have to say that the amendment is ill-conceived. There are a number of consequential amendments—for example, in Clause 20 and Schedule 11—that would need to be made if Clause 8 were removed and which are obviously not taken into account by this amendment. The noble Baroness knows as well as I do that it is usual and less messy to take all such matters together in one tidying-up operation, and I can therefore only conclude that, in proposing the amendment, what she really seeks to do, not unreasonably, is to try to draw out a statement of the Government's intention.
I have no objection at all to making the Government's position clear. We recognise that something must be done to clarify the position with regard to Clause 2(4) and Clause 8, and we are considering the possibility of bringing forward proposals to achieve this. We have, of course, been looking again at the whole issue following the rejection of our original proposals in Committee on 28th February. Perhaps I could remind your Lordships of other undertakings I gave on that occasion. I mentioned during that debate that we would be prepared to look at the possibility of strengthening our proposals in Clause 8, so that local authority landlords would have the opportunity to buy back where a dwelling would otherwise pass to a relative or another heir who was not actually living in the dwelling. I also said that we would be willing to examine to what
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extent we could provide additional safeguards for authorities in rural areas. These points are still being considered, and I hope your Lordships will agree that it would serve no useful purpose, certainly not tonight, to go over the ground once again in the absence of any firm new proposals.
The fact that this amendment does not achieve its technical objective is one thing. More important is that the Government have to reconsider their position in these matters, and that they are doing at the present time. In the meantime, I shall have to resist the amendment.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, it seems to me that your Lordships are in an extraordinarily difficult position. The noble Baroness must be right that there are anomalies as the Bill stands, and they have to be reconciled, if only to make sure which is dominant, Clause 2(4) or Clause 8. That is a comparatively simple drafting technique, but it involves a major political decision.
The difficulty, as I see it, is this. I spoke in favour of the amendment which is now in Clause 2(4), although I did not support the noble Baroness in the Lobby because I felt that the Minister was making noises as if he was coming in our direction, and I thought we ought to give him an opportunity to show what he could produce. But the difficulty now is that there are both provisions in the Bill, and, as the noble Baroness has proved abundantly, they are irreconcilable; or, at any rate, it must be indicated which is dominant. Therefore we want to know what the Government propose to do.
The difficulty, however, is that that is not necessarily what the House of Commons wants to do. I cannot see how we can proceed until we know what decision is going to be made not only by the Government but also in another place. Perhaps the Minister, by leave of the House, could speak again and indicate how that political problem might be teased out. Presumably we shall have to consider the Commons amendments, if they amend either of the two provisions in question. One hopes that they will indicate clearly not only, as the noble Baroness has said, which of the provisions contained in the Bill will be overriding but also the consequential provisions to which the noble Lord the Minister referred.
8.31 p.m.
Lord Molson: My Lords, as one who was associated with the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, in the amendments which were carried against the Government at the Committee stage, I would appeal to her not to press this amendment at the Report stage. It was not easy for any of us to take in exactly what the Minister is prepared to do, as this appeared only towards the end of his speech. I make no criticism of that. It arose naturally out of the fact that the Minister was stating the Government's case. At the end of his speech the Minister indicated that the Government were prepared to take back these matters and look at them. I am sure that the Government will do so in a generous spirit. It may not be possible for the Government now to state their exact intentions. These are very difficult, complicated and technical matters.

1439
The Government will have to take into account the opinion of another place.
However, after having reread with care what was said by my noble friend the Minister towards the end of his speeches on these various amendments, I have no doubt that the Government will be prepared to go some way towards meeting what he said were the points of substance which we had raised. Therefore it would be premature and undesirable for us to delete this clause until it is possible for the Government to indicate to us what they are prepared to do in order to meet those points of substance, towards which they have indicated that in some degree they are not unsympathetic.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I accept fully the intention of the Government. If, however, at the end of the proceedings in another place we are disappointed because the Government do not say what we hope they will say, and consequently there is conflict between us, we shall then have to reconsider the matter. The noble Lord, Lord Molson, has indicated that we should be prepared to wait. We are prepared to wait. However, when it comes to controlling what will happen, we are in a different situation. Therefore the dilemma with which we are faced is the irreconcilability of leaving Clause 8 in the Bill until we know precisely what the Government intend to do. I wonder whether the Minister can help us on that point.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, not for the first time today the noble and learned Lord is right. All of us accept that. I am deeply grateful to my noble friend Lord Molson for stating exactly the Government's position. The Government made certain proposals. Unfortunately the House decided to divide upon them before we were given the opportunity to say exactly what they were. It is because of the absence of that explanation that we are in this position today. Clearly I am not in a position to give the details of our proposals. However, I have no reason to doubt that if it is decided to make any change, which has yet to be decided, and because certain things have got to be done in any case, they, too, will have to be decided once the Government have come to their own conclusion.
As the noble Lord knows, there is always the opportunity for this House to make a decision on what, if anything, comes out of our consideration. It will then be for the House to decide. This is not without precedent. During the last few years I have had that experience on a number of occasions. I am sorry not to be able to be more forthcoming, although I should have very much liked to be. In those circumstances, nothing will be lost by the House not pressing the amendment. Even if the noble Baroness tried to press the amendment, it would not alter anything which might yet take place. Nothing is to be gained by it. We have to be patient and see what comes out of the discussions. The House will then have to decide its verdict, if anything at all comes out of those discussions. If it does not, we shall have to do something else, bearing in mind what has been decided.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, and the noble Lord, Lord Molson, for expressing a view on this extremely difficult subject. As my noble friend Lord Graham of Edmonton has just said, we are concerned that what has been decided quite clearly in this House should not be entirely overridden by another place. On a different occasion and upon a different Bill the noble Viscount, Lord Whitelaw, said that what we in this House thought was right we should do, irrespective of what will happen in another place. Therefore I feel very strongly that it would be very unfortunate if, by standing back from it, anything we did here helped to slide away what we have achieved.
I must also point out that I do not believe that the Minister was unable to explain this only at the last moment. There is nothing personal in this. It relates to Government policy. However, as the Minister knows, this matter has been under discussion and representations have been made upon it for a considerable period of time. At no time until the end of the Minister's statement was any of this brought forward. We have been round all this before. As I have already pointed out, we went round it in 1980 and we have been round it since then. We were able to go round it again when the Bill fell in 1983. The distinction between pre-emption and exemption from the right to buy is very clearly known and understood. When the Minister set out the likely propositions, it seemed to me that we had been round all this before and it seemed to me to be quite unsatisfactory compared with the simple and precise exemption from the right to buy of a definite category which has been tightly drawn up. In fact, it has been drawn up more tightly than Clause 8. It was drawn up in that way in order to deal with the criticisms which the Government had been making about the way the situation has worked out since the passing of the 1980 Act.
When I say we were particularly concerned about this, I am speaking not only on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches but also on behalf of a number of other people from all parts of the House belonging to different parties or sitting on the Cross-Benches. They all feel very strongly that there should be exemption as regards the right to buy for elderly people in places designed and adapted for elderly people. That is why this provision was passed, despite what the Minister said. As he knows very well, even some of his own supporters supported the amendment because they felt it was a better way of dealing with the problem.
I believe that the Minister accepts that confusion could arise. We are aware of the rather different situation in another place compared with your Lordships' House. We have a bit of a thin Chamber at the moment, but I believe that the general feeling is that we do not want what we achieved on the first day of Committee stage to slip away. I do not consider that there is anything to be gained by pressing the amendment at this point. Another reason is that I do not think we would win—and that is a very good reason for not pressing the amendment. However, points have been made which express what many of us feel about this subject and it is to be hoped that that line will be held when this goes before another place.

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I should like to offer one word of advice—I shall not say warning—to the Minister. He referred to rural housing. At the end of Committee stage he threw in the idea of trying to exempt rural housing. I am quite sure that he is aware of the tremendous problem that arises in trying to define the term "rural" without reaching the situation where only the very largest conurbations are exempt. One can end up with places other than Leeds, London and Liverpool all deemed to be "rural". There is a difficulty with the definition. Even some of the definitions the noble Lord mentioned tonight sounded very complicated to me compared with the simple exemption for a clearly-defined category of people.
When we have an opportunity to introduce some simplicity into the complexity of the legislation we are now considering, we should welcome that opportunity and grasp it to our bosoms—and not proceed along more difficult roads to the complications which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, has been bringing to our attention throughout the progress of this Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 [Dwelling-houses in National Parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty etc.]:
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendments Nos. 31 to 35:
[Printed earlier: col. 1414.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendments Nos. 31 to 35 en bloc. These amendments were all taken with Amendment No. 10.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 12 [Secretary of State's power to give assistance]:
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendments Nos. 36 and 37:
Page 16, line 33, leave out ("or expenses").
Page 16, line 39, leave out ("or expenses").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, these are purely technical amendments to subsection (4) of the proposed new Section 24D. This defines that the Secretary of State shall have a first charge against any costs or expenses payable to a tenant purchaser who has been assisted under this provision. Expenses are the Scottish equivalent to costs in the sense of sums payable to a successful party as a result of a court action. As this provision will not appply to Scotland, the reference to "expenses" in this context is unnecessary. These amendments will serve to delete the references in question. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 38:
[Printed earlier: col. 1373.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 38 was taken with Amendment No. 1A. I beg to move.
8.46 p.m.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I rather thought that we had stopped short of Amendment No. 38, on the ground that the noble Baroness wanted to speak to that amendment, as did I. What causes me
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some hesitation—to mention a small point first—is that the proposed new clause states in effect that a dwelling-house which might be subject to the right to buy (and the noble Lord will correct me if I have this wrong) shall not be otherwise disposed of. The side note on the Marshalled List seems to be a little misleading, in that it refers to, "voluntary disposals". The side notes are not subject to parliamentary control, but perhaps the Minister will ask the draftsman to consider this point in the context of what I have said.
Subsection (4) states:
"Any such consent may be given subject to such conditions as the Secretary of State sees fit to impose".
That seems to me to be an extraordinarily wide blanket provision. I have grave doubts as to its constitutional propriety. I can see its attraction for the Secretary of State, but that is not identical to its attraction for anybody other than the Secretary of State.
Subsection (7) also caused me to hesitate, and I shall be grateful to hear the Minister's opinion on it. It seems to render void a disposal by a local authority arising in the circumstances of the new provision which has not received the Secretary of State's consent. The noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne, is in his place and he knows much more about this subject than I do, but I should have thought that it is almost unprecedented that a bona fide purchaser for value without notice of the invalidity of the conveyance on the part of the vendor should be stripped of his rights. That seeems to me to be the effect of the proposed subsection (7). When the Minister replies, perhaps he will deal with those two points.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, is absolutely right: the point I was going to raise was on subsection (4). Subsection (7) is far too esoteric for me. I did not come to grips with it at all. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Minister would reply on it.
The noble and learned Lord has made the case on subsection (4) so very well that I need say only a few words in support of him. There is this worry that we now have so much legislation nowadays, particularly in this field, where matters are always left to the discretion, the decision or the judgment of the Secretary of State. In this case we go even more way out. The new clause states:
"Any such consent…subject to such conditions as the Secretary of State sees fit to impose".
That is far too wide. I was delighted to hear that the noble and learned Lord takes the same view as we do about that.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, could my noble friend tell us whether this new clause is necessary at all? I do not quite understand the philosophy behind it. If anyone wants to buy a house surely he would inevitably take advantage of Section 1 of Part I of the 1980 Act. I do not see what would induce him not to do so. In any case, if he did do so, what is wrong with that? He will be making a mistake, no doubt, but I do not see why it should be so circumscribed. There may

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be some good reason, but I am sorry, I have not yet grasped it.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, first of all, I am glad that the noble and learned Lord drew our attention to the need to speak on this. I had intended to do so, but we were rushing through all the first part and we missed this out. Certainly it was not my intention so to do.
Section 104 of the Housing Act 1957 provides that local authorities may not dispose of dwellings held under Part V of that Act without the consent of the Secretary of State. Consent is not required for a disposal under the right to buy or to the grant of a secure tenancy. There is at present no comparable control over the voluntary disposal of non-Part V housing whether it is held by district or county councils. This means that councils who are so minded may be in a position to frustrate a tenant's application to exercise his right to buy by disposing of their interest in his home to a third party.
That is clearly not acceptable. Amendment No. 38—and, indeed, Amendment No. 149—therefore proposes a new control over the voluntary disposal of certain non-Part V property comparable to that applying to the disposal of Part V property. I emphasise that this will apply only to non-Part V dwellings which are let on a secure tenancy or on a long lease granted under the right to buy, and not to other dwellings over which there is presently no control. There will be circumstances in which it makes sense for an authority to dispose of its interest in a property let on a secure tenancy, and it will be able to do so, albeit with the Secretary of State's consent. Perhaps I may come back to that in a moment.
In granting consent the Secretary of State will be concerned to ensure that arrangements are made so that the secure tenant is no worse off than he would have been had his home remained in the ownership of his present landlord. This is the approach that is currently adopted to applications for the voluntary disposal of Part V property.
The noble and learned Lord asked if the draftsman would consider points on subsection (7). May I say, in trying to be helpful, that subsection (7) of the clause is precedented in Section 137(1) of the Housing Act 1980. Subsection (4) is precedented in Section 104A of the 1957 Housing Act, as amended by Section 92 of the 1980 Act. I have to say at once that in view of what has been said I will want to look at this more carefully again. I shall want to consider it with the draftsman and take up the points that have been made to see whether we have this right. As I said earlier, in the main these particular amendments have been worked out in conjunction with the associations and others to try to reach an agreed basis. However, I must take this away and look at it. Clearly it needs to be done, and I will do that. In that sense, perhaps we can proceed as we did with the earlier amendments.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Renton): My Lords, does the noble Lord therefore move Amendment No. 38? The Question is, That Amendment No. 38 be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say, Content? To the contrary, Not-Content? The Contents have it—
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I understood the Minister was going to take the whole clause back and look at it, not to move the amendment. That was our understanding.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, with the leave of the House, we had points of this kind made earlier by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, suggesting that certain alterations need to be made. I accepted that without question and said I would need to consult the draftsman. That we will do. It does not basically alter the intention underlying the amendment. As I said a moment ago—and this is something your Lordships may recall I said when I introduced these particular amendments—I was informed that they were not controversial at all and that they were agreed as far as the principle was concerned. If we have it wrong in the drafting—despite what I said about subsection (7)—in view of what my noble friend Lord Selkirk said, and especially in view of what was said by the noble and learned Lord, I shall want to look at it again. It is merely a question of how we do it. We can withdraw the amendment now and reinstate it, or pass it now with my undertaking that I will look at it again—and your Lordships know that I do not give an undertaking if I do not mean it. It is a question of the simplest way of dealing with this matter.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, this is a very real problem which the noble and learned Lord has drawn to our attention. That is why I think we have got off to a slightly bad start. We have this very difficult grouping of amendments, which are so complicated. As I pointed out, they are very difficult for us who are not lawyers and who have no department to help us with them. There are two very important subsections in the new clause; and there is the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, on the necessity for the whole clause. If, as the Minister said, he is quite willing to accept either method of handling this problem, my noble friends and myself would be happier if, at this stage, he withdrew the amendment.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, perhaps your Lordships will permit me to address the House again on this matter. I merely desire to say that whether the clause goes in with the undertaking which the Minister has given—and which, of course, we take unreservedly—that he will look at the points again, or whether the amendment is now withdrawn and reintroduced at a later stage, seems to me to be marginal. However, in view of what the noble Earl said concerning his doubts as to the value of this clause at all, I should have thought that the balance was slightly on the side of withdrawal.
May I add that my own objection was not to the drafting at all: it was to the constitutional implications of the two matters to which I have referred. The Minister said that there were precedents. Any lawyer loves a precedent, but a precedent is not always a good precedent.
8.59 p.m.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend one question? If he is to look at this matter, will he consider who will bear the expense of a disposal

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which is void? There will be expenses and they may be quite considerable. Will they fall on the local authority, or on the buyer? My feeling is that they should certainly fall on the local authority. It must know the rules, which the buyer probably does not know. I wonder whether it is now necessary that we have Part I of the 1980 Act. It may have been necessary previously, but I question a little whether it is really necessary at the present time. I am trying to think of circumstances where the Secretary of State would regard it as a bad disposal. I should have thought there would be very few, if any.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I want to be helpful here. I shall certainly take up the point that my noble friend raises about who pays. I think the answer is the one that he gave. That would be my thinking, but clearly I should want to check that out. My only reservation about withdrawing this is that I do not really think that that is what we ought to be doing. If we do that, I think it implies something else. I am not sure whether I agree with my noble friend Lord Selkirk on the underlying desirability of having this provision in at all. I fear that if we withdraw it, the implication is something else, and the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, will not hesitate to draw, it to our attention when it eventually comes back in what ever state it re-emerges.
I have indicated my genuine willingness to make sure we have this right in the light of all that has been said. It is not an undertaking that I ever give lightly, and I have never gone back on such a thing. I hope therefore that your Lordships will feel that in this case we should leave it at that. It will have to come back, and there will be an opportunity for your Lordships to decide what to do about whatever form it then takes. I think that in these circumstances it is not unreasonable for me to ask that the provision stays in at the moment, bearing in mind my very firm undertakings.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 24 [Grounds and orders for possession]:
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendments Nos. 39 to 43:
[Printed earlier: col. 1373.]
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Evans of Claughton Lord Evans of Claughton had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 44:
After Clause 26, insert the following new clause:
("Tenants' co-operatives.
After section 41C of the 1980 Act there shall be inserted the following section—
"41D. —(1) Twenty or more secure tenants who have registered as a co-operative society in accordance with section 1(2)(A) of the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965 shall be entitled to apply to the landlord for an agreement within the provisions of section 139 of the Housing Act 1980, and it may not be refused without good reason.
(2) Regulations under this section may make such procedural, incidental, supplementary and transitional provision as may appear to the Secretary of State to be necessary or expedient.".")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in view of the lateness of the hour and the fact that I hope the noble Lord the Minister will have another look at my new amendment, I propose not to move this amendment at this stage.
[Amendment No. 44 not moved.]
9.10 p.m.
Clause 27 [Right to carry out repairs]:
Baroness Denington Baroness Denington moved Amendments Nos. 45 and 46:
Page 30, line 28, after ("a") insert ("model").
Page 30, line 37, at end insert—
("Provided that the right of a secure tenant to carry out repairs shall not arise unless the landlord has failed to carry our repairs within such reasonable period of time as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I should like to move Amendments Nos. 45 and 46 together. I must start by reminding your Lordships that a very large number of properties owned by public landlords are in a deplorable state of repair. It is in an endeavour to make some progress towards a better repair service for public authority tenants that I again move the same two amendments which I moved before. Your Lordships may remember that when I previously moved the amendments I asked whether I could have a talk with the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. We had a talk, and I was most grateful to him for arranging it. I found it very helpful. I think perhaps that afterwards we understood one another better. I hope he understood me better; I feel sure that he did.
We come to these two amendments. I am assured that they have the support of not only all local authorities, but also the National Tenants' Organisation, the London Tenants, SHAG, and Shelter; that is, all local authorities and all tenants. In my experience that is something which is almost unique and which should carry considerable weight. I hope that it will. The tenants say that universally they want the responsibility for repairs to rest with their landlords, they want repairs dealt with promptly and efficiently and, if that does not happen, they want recourse outside to see that they are dealt with.
Amendment No. 45 would insert the word, "model". I should like to make perhaps more clear than I did before exactly what I mean by that word. I shall refer to the scheme of repairs run by a housing association of which I happen to be deputy chairman. It has over 13,000 properties. The scheme has been running successfully for three years. I call it a model scheme. It is divided into four groups. It covers emergency repairs, which include blocked drains, dangerous structures, total loss of electric power, and so on. All those things have to be dealt with in 24 hours. Urgent repairs have to be completed within seven days of notification, and non-urgent repairs within 28 days of notification. Other repairs which are more serious come under the heading of programmed repairs; for instance, when the landlord is to do all the outsides of the houses, or this, that and the other.
That scheme has been running for three years. It works. There are no complaints. It is only perhaps when a spare part cannot be obtained in a hurry that it fails, but the number of failures could be counted on my hands. That is what I call a model scheme. That is the kind of thing—perhaps not quite as tight, though I should like to see it as tight—that local authorities should be asked to accept. It should be worked out with them. That is what I mean by a model scheme. I

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think that we should then get repairs done and have happy tenants. If it failed, the tenants would have the right to go outside, bring in the builder, and get the repairs done. It is a default clause. I would urge your Lordships very seriously to consider that approach.
The proposals that are before us I do not find really are going to produce anything except a mouse, if I can put it that way. The procedures are, first of all, far too lengthy, particularly if you compare them with the schedule that I have just read out. For instance, when I come to look at the Minister's own document it talks about claiming the right to repair. Paragraph 3 reads:
"It is proposed that a tenant wishing to exercise the right to repair should serve a notice (in a form to be prescribed) on the landlord"—
et cetera. Paragraph 4 is the landlord's response:
"Landlords would be required to respond within 21 days with a counter-notice either withholding consent … or granting it",
et cetera. Twenty-one days, my Lords. Under my model scheme, which I have told your Lordships really works, that repair would have been done and forgotten in that time. Where do we get with this scheme of the Ministry's? Then, there is a £200 limit. In these days when things are so expensive there is not an awful lot that is going to come within the £200 limit.
Then—and I think this is an overwhelming point to make—it is only those tenants who can afford to pay the money out and then wait for the local authority to repay them—and sometimes it is a very long wait—who will be able to take advantage of this scheme that the Government have embodied in this clause that is in front of us. We have to remember that unfortunately, and very sadly, 60 per cent. of tenants in local authority dwellings are now on supplementary benefit: they have not got any money they can spare at all and, by and large, the tenants in local authority dwellings, or those who were in local authority dwellings, who could have afforded to pay out have now bought their houses or are about to buy their houses. So the numbers who can find the money and bring in the builder is very limited.
In the model scheme that would have to be met by a proper procedure by which the bills went direct to the local authority, the local authority having agreed a schedule with the builder and knowing exactly what it is going to cost. I think that by following that road we would get some progress. We would not only get happy tenants; we would also get the nation's stock of dwellings preserved. I myself think that that is a matter of very great importance.
The poor tenant is caught in a trap. Even I myself did not realise this when I first started looking into this matter. He has no ability at all to force the landlord to do anything. I find this most terribly serious. The tenant with money can go and call the builder in, but the poor tenant cannot look now, as he used to be able to look, to the public health officer to come and force the local authority to do a repair. It used to be so. I am sure that when I was on a borough council it was so. I think when I was on the LCC it was so. But I am told that there was a case, called the Cardiff case, in 1982, which pointed out that the public health officer is employed by the local authority and the local authority is also the landlord, and you cannot have a decision when one arm of the local authority is suing
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the other arm of the local authority. So the poor tenant has absolutely no leverage at all to get his repairs done. I think that is a position that ought not to be allowed to go on.
I must explain that my amendments do not exactly, immediately help this point that I am raising. I tried to find an amendment that would do it attached to this clause we have in front of us. Such advisers as I can look to, and the local authority advisers, could not come up with one that did not really create chaos when put as an amendment to what the Minister has down. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, was very kind. I spoke to him about my difficulty and he consulted with his advisers in the Ministry and they could not come up with an amendment, either. So it was no good putting something down that would create chaos.
What I am really trying to do is to get—"persuade is the word, because I really want to persuade—the Government to accept these amendments in order to move the whole problem forward. I think it should be done because, as I have pointed out, all the local authorities and tenants are behind the wording of the amendment. I realise that the noble Lords, Lord Bellwin and Skelmersdale, must know perfectly well that if I were to say that the local authorities and tenants do not warm to the proposals in the paper I should be putting it very mildly: they certainly do not really like them at all. Since they are all behind the wording of the amendment, could the noble Lord the Minister not accept the amendment and then come closer together with the local authorities? Having made a start with the repairs, could we not get them to continue on together happily with the noble Lord the Minister in the direction I have indicated? That is what I mean by trying to move the whole situation forward in order to help everybody.
I will not say any more because it is just in that spirit that I am moving these amendments. I really beg the noble Lord the Minister to see if he cannot accept them. I think it would be very helpful to millions of people—I think I am talking of four and a quarter million tenants.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I find these amendments rather strange, and I really hope that the noble Lord the Minister thinks very seriously before he accepts them. I appreciate absolutely the intentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, and I am sure her motives are good, but I am not really happy with the wording here.
For example, I think the insertion of the word "model" is going to create a totally illusory document which would not mean anything. I should like to know much more about these people who are doing the repairs in the 24 hours that she speaks about. I am certainly not finding privately that I can get anyone along at that sort of speed, and certainly no local authority with which I have been involved can get anyone along at that sort of speed. This is one of the regular complaints: that the tenant has to stay in day after day in the hope that someone will turn up to do the repairs. Is the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, speaking of some place which has a direct labour force which does the work? Is she speaking of someone who has a group of private contractors? It is not at all clear how the work could be done at the speed to which she

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refers. At a time when the building industry is in a rather sad state perhaps we have a bit of hope of getting work done quickly, but the moment there is work in the building industry and it "overheats" (I think that is the expression) you cannot get anyone to do anything at all. I think the word "model" would mean nothing more than a document which could not really be made workable.
With regard to the second amendment, I do not agree that all tenants would like this. I think many tenants want to have the right to call someone in not only because they want to have the work done, but because they want to have it done at a time when they can be there without losing time away from work. Many people cannot really afford to leave work to be at home and sit and wait for the hours it takes if the person coming to do the repairs is being arranged by a local authority.
I think the motives behind the amendments are good but I am not really happy with the wording which is there. I hope if the Minister is inclined to accept this he will look very carefully at the wording and be sure it really does mean what the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, wishes it to mean.
Lord Evans of Claughton: My Lords, this is a problem whichever way one looks at it, including from the point of view of a tenant getting a contractor to do the repairs. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, will accept that in my practice as a solicitor I find tenants complain fairly bitterly about the landlord and local authority not turning up to do repairs for months and, as she says, they stay in all day long. I do assure you they find also that they do not get very much better service from private contractors, who either do not turn up or run out of money when they are half way through doing the repairs, or who, very often, are cowboys. I fear that the Budget proposal to add VAT to the cost of improvements to houses will he more of an encouragement to the kind of contractor who appears, takes the cash and disappears. There is a problem whichever way you look at it. What the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, was saying, I think, was that her scheme is not perfect but that it is a basis for a reconsideration of the problem.
It seems to me that many of the tenants who have not taken advantage of the right-to-buy legislation are almost by definition people who do not have ready cash available. The private contractor, envisaged by the clause as the person who would do the work, will not start work generally unless he has money in advance. That is an incontrovertible fact. I would have thought that some compromise could be agreed along the lines suggested in the amendment whereby the landlord, in the shape of the local authority, should have the opportunity of carrying out the repairs initially and, if the local authority fails, the tenant should have the right to go to a private contractor. I am afraid that we are in a jungle in this area. The victim is almost invariably the tenant.
I would like to hear the Government say that they are willing to go back and look at this matter again, taking into account the remarks of both noble Baronesses, to see whether they can come up with some scheme that would give more protection and
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help to the tenant than either of the present proposals. I accept that I am not saying anything very helpful or constructive and that I have not produced an alternative. All that I am saying is that there is a serious problem here for tenants whichever way you look at it.
9.22 p.m.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, I am glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Evans, because I agree very much with what he says. We are talking here about housing repairs mainly in the public sector. This is, of course, one of the most difficult areas of housing to deal with. The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, was a little wide of the mark when she spoke as if there would be some compulsion over tenants using the sort of facility suggested in the amendment. My experience in local authority housing has taught me that all the tenant wants is to get the repair done as quickly as possible. I do not think that the tenant is over-worried about whether it is done by direct labour or by the private sector. There is no question therefore of the proposal of my noble friend Lady Denington, if the Government were kind enough to accept it, being in any way compulsory on the tenant.
Normally, maintenance departments in local authority housing sections, whether under the control of housing or a direct labour department, perform reasonably well. I say "reasonably" because experience differs sometimes between one authority and another. Much depends on the resources that are available. It is a sad fact of life that successive Governments—I am not referring only to this Government or to the Government from 1979 until the last general election—have progressively cut pro rata the money available for maintenance of our housing stock. It is true, I believe, as my noble friend Lady Denington said, that 50 per cent., or even 60 per cent., of council house tenants now receive housing benefit, sometimes a substantial amount, towards their rent. There is no possible way that those tenants would ever trigger off default powers. They would not be in any position to go outside the local authority when that is their housing authority and order a repair to be done on the basis that they could pay for it. They would not have the cash. Then we have to ask ourselves about the 40, 50 or 60 per cent. of tenants—I know that some authorities may have more than 60 per cent.—who receive assistance. What happens when they have paid out the money to have a repair done? How does the local authority refund it? From what does it refund it?
I am speaking in support of the spirit of the amendment, knowing the minefield of local authority housing repairs. I should like to highlight the difficulties, because I suspect that the money could only come from the housing revenue account. Certainly it would be a very brave local authority that levied an increase in rate poundage in order to carry out repairs or default work that had been reported to them by their own tenants.
I should like to give some dimension to the present problem. I address my plea to the Minister not in any sense of acrimony. We are old friends and foes in a way, and we have debated these things over the years without any acrimony. However, I should like to give some indication of the dimension of the problem that

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is facing local authorities with large housing stocks. I should like to quote from last night's Yorkshire Evening Post which is the local newspaper in Leeds. It is headed, "Homes cash blow for city", and it says:
"Leeds City Council has failed in its bid to get £6·4m. from the Government to spend on house repairs—instead the Government has offered £1,125,000".
for its repairs account. So that means that Leeds, according to its calculations, is £5,275,000 short on what it would have liked to have.
If we were dealing with a situation where one would expect normal repairs to be needed, that, in itself, would be a serious situation. But we are not dealing with that situation at all: we are dealing with a calamity that is befalling us—and it has been quoted in another Chamber and in this Chamber—of monolithic housing repair accounts that will have to be instituted and financed to deal with the rapidly deteriorating properties, some of which have been in existence for less than 15 years.
There have been two successive reports from the Association of Municipal Authorities. While in a political sense or in a non-political sense one could look at the two reports and quibble about the figures, what is beyond dispute is that a minimum sum of £5 billion is required—that is just a loose assessment but no one has challenged it and no one has said it is wrong—to correct, restore or repair some of the industrialised systems and semi-industrialised systems that were built under successive governments. I am not trying to make any political capital because a Government of my own colour are as much to blame as anybody. A very expensive experiment was tried but it seems odd that it was only tried in the public sector and out of the public purse.
So the situation is that there are between 900,000 and one million of these properties which are seeing nothing like the normal span of life before major repairs are required. So where does the money come from or what does the tenant in such a property do when this becomes law? I am not arguing about the principle of giving the tenant the right; I am arguing about the funding. Leeds—and, as I have said, I think that the noble Lord is aware of this—has about 3,000 what it calls Airey homes, which were the first industrialised or semi-industrialised houses which showed major defects. Different amounts have been quoted, but nobody quotes a figure of less than £10,000 to bring each house up to standard. In some cases it is £15,000. If that is the tip of the iceberg that has surfaced, it is only a small tip, because there are hundreds of thousands of these houses coming on stream requiring major repairs and in some cases almost structural rejuvenation to keep them in the housing stock.
So what is the situation? Here I have to be a little critical, because the Government have so far chosen only to have regard to tenants in these houses who have bought them under the Government's private right-to-buy scheme. Generous grants are being made, and are to be made, I understand, under a Bill that is to be introduced in another place in the near future that will include other types of houses. But so far as I know it will follow the same pattern, and only include former council house tenants who have bought their
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council houses and are now saddled with something that is an unsaleable commodity, because even after being put right nobody will want to buy it on the market. This is the dimension of the problem before us.
I have questioned why a council house tenant is being victimised in this way. Even if the Government acted with the utmost generosity and accepted this amendment in the spirit in which it has been moved by the noble Baroness, it still would not alter the fact that we have moved into a two-structured society in what one would call the public housing sector.
I do not know whether hybridity is ever discussed in your Lordships' Chamber, but I would question whether any government had the right to act in a manner which is completely adverse to the interests of possibly nearly 100,000 tenants or families in this type of property. I would say to the Minister—and as I have said we are in a sense old friends and old foes—that the amendment moved by the noble Baroness is in spirit and principle correct. But unless we have, as a nation, a higher regard towards providing the funds to do these repairs this, and any housing policy the Government have, will be hopeless. I should like to think that the Minister may be able to respond in a sympathetic manner to the amendment so well moved by the noble Baroness.
9.33 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale will be responding to the amendment and I certainly do not wish to make a Second Reading speech on the whole underlying theology of housing repairs. I shall not say "tempted as I am to do so-, but it is a vast subject, as the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick, rightly points out. However, I feel that I must take one minute of your Lordships' time because the noble Lord specifically mentioned Leeds, with which I am familiar having been the chairman of housing there for several years.
I can tell your Lordships that 20 years ago the most critical problem of all that we were faced with in housing was housing repairs. This is nothing new. It has gone on for years and years, which is not to say that one should leave it alone. However, I am bound to say—and I am really going to cut it very short—that when the authority says that it is short of X million pounds to do all that it would like to do, I would then have to direct its attention to the opportunities it has to do things a darned sight better than it is currently doing them, that could make available to it several million pounds if it so chose.
I would also want to say that this is a matter of priorities. A local authority itself decides what its priorities should be. The grants, and so on, which it receives are unhypothecated monies and it can decide what to do. There is the additional opportunity of capital receipts, which was not available in the early days that I am talking about many years ago, which offers great scope. While I do not want to imply that that is the whole of the answer—it is not—much of what the noble Lord says is right.
The problem of defective housing is a great one, and it is all over the country, as he rightly says. The Government are looking closely at this because it is a

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national problem. I thank your Lordships for hearing with me on the observations made about my city and its housing, which I would claim to know better than most. There are opportunities, if the authority wishes to tackle them, that are open to them.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, perhaps I might now he allowed to return to the amendments on the Marshalled List.
Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, we debated these identical amendments in Committee. I was, therefore, frankly surprised to see them reappearing on the Marshalled List. I can only assume that I was unclear then, so I shall try again.
I was impressed then, as I was today, by the sympathetic manner in which the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, put her arguments. I am glad that we are at one on the importance of tenants having the right to repair, which sentiment has been echoed all round the house, and quite rightly. Your Lordships may recall that in Committee I undertook to discuss this question with the noble Baroness. During the meeting which ensued we were able to clear any misunderstandings which may have arisen between us about the effects the amendments would have had. At least I hope so, but I now rather doubt it.
There is little point in giving tenants a right to repair which, in practice, landlords could slip out of if they were to be given discretion. The effect of Amendment No. 45—I must in all fairness say it again, and obviously for about the third time—would be to weaken the very real and positive right to repair which the Government propose.
At that meeting, and in her speech to your Lordships this evening, the noble Baroness was concerned about the difficulties which some tenants might have in financing repairs under the scheme before they obtained payment themselves from the landlords. This is a matter for the regulations which will give effect to the scheme rather than for the primary legislation which we are debating today. I assure the noble Baroness that her point is well taken and will be considered most carefully before we issue draft regulations for comment. I will return to that point in a minute.
The first of the two amendments of the noble Baroness revolves around the meaning of the word "model". Meanings are rather difficult things, and although she did not actually say it I understood the noble Baroness to mean that the model scheme shall, in fact, provide a statutory framework within which landlords will have a limited discretion to vary minor details to take account of local circumstances.
In principle the Government would hope to avoid putting this into the regulations. It is the essential framework which we shall he dealing with. That is exactly what Clause 27, as it now stands, provides. What is not in the regulations will be for landlords themselves to decide. There will be many questions for local decision. I cannot see any purpose in specifying in regulations what those matters should be, only to then say that landlords can vary them. I would
1454
contend, therefore, that Amendment No. 45 is not necessary.
Amendment No. 46 raises a different issue. I can only repeat what I said in Committee. Your Lordships have had an opportunity to see the Government's initial proposals contained in their consultation letter issued by the Department of the Environment last October. Among other proposals, a tenant would be able, subject to certain limitations, to claim his right to repair at the same time as notifying his landlord of the defect, and a landlord would be able to refuse consent on certain grounds. One of the options proposed was that landlords might be able to refuse consent when they intend to carry out the repair themselves within 28 days.
That proposal positively encourages prompt attention to repairs—a concept to which I now understand we all subscribe. On the other hand, Amendment No. 46 would work against tenants' interests. It would provide scope for unwelcome procrastination on the part of landlords. It is not sufficient for tenants to have to wait a length of time—as prescribed by the Secretary of State—before they can then start the process of claiming their right to carry out the repair themselves. In many cases, tenants will be able to carry out repairs more quickly and more cheaply than the landlord. This amendment would simply add delay, confusion and expense. We should never forget that it is the tenant who has the major interest in getting the repair attended to.
But I see a way forward in what has been described as this intractable problem. I can see the force in principle behind the arguments which have been made this evening, but I am not yet altogether convinced that the difficulties which have been described will seriously inconvenience tenants in practice. I would expect responsible contractors doing right-to-repair work to recognise that, before payment is made, it is reasonable for both tenants and landlords to be able to satisfy themselves that the work has been properly done. For contractors, the sums involved are, by definition, under the Government proposals, not large. I would expect them to be prepared to wait for payment for the short time which we have in mind to prescribe for matters to be settled up.
Tenants who are doing the work themselves will be responsible only for buying the materials to do the work. As noble Lords will be aware, materials usually represent a relatively small part of the cost of getting repair jobs done. Nonetheless, as I have already said, I am very well seized of the argument which the noble Baroness has advanced and will therefore consider most carefully whether to insert this in the draft regulations which we will be issuing to give effect to the scheme.
Baroness Denington: My Lords, I rose slowly because I was not quite sure of the meaning of the word "this" in the expression used by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, when he said that he would consider inserting "this" in the final regulations. Can I be helped to understand what the "this" is?
Lord Skelmersdale: Yes, my Lords, the possibility of delaying payment—which is what I have been referring to in the last couple of minutes of my speech.
Baroness Denington: For that, my Lords, I am grateful. Otherwise I am disappointed. The noble Baroness said that the the timescale of the model scheme indicated was not workable. My Lords, it works! It has worked for 13,000 tenants for three years and I give you my assurance that it works. I will ask the British Housing Association, which works this scheme, to send the noble Baroness all the details about it. I give the House an absolute assurance that it works.
We do not have a direct labour organisation. We build all over the country, up and down England, down to the South Coast and actually in Scotland. The scheme works by inviting builders where we have our estates to tender on rates schedules. It is exceedingly efficient. It may be noted that when I was moving the amendment I said that it was a very tight schedule. Indeed, it is exceedingly tight. Things are dealt with within 28 days, four weeks. I said that it might be necessary for a model scheme for the Government to discuss with the local authority having the time a little stretched out. This is because a lot of local authorities use direct labour. I am not saying that direct labour cannot be efficient. Direct labour can be exceedingly efficient. The trouble is that in their procedures local authorities tend to lay down too much bureaucracy. They can be tightened up. They should be tightened up. I might say it should all be done, instead of in four weeks, in six weeks.
I am pleading for the Government and the authorities to get together. That is the basis of this whole thing. Unless they get together, the tenants will go on suffering. That is why I wanted some kind of model scheme got out in co-operation between the Government and the tenants. It would be so speedy. If it did not work, then far more tenants than are to be covered by this little mouse of a Bill would be going off to private builders to get it done. Of course they would be, and that would be a good lesson for those who are dilatory. I would not want to protect them at all.
I think we shall need to have another talk with the noble Lord. Lord Skelmersdale, if he will, because there is still a great deal of misunderstanding between us. But I shall press this because I think it would be quite wrong if we on this side of the Chamber did not press it, when all the authorities have come together, the tenants have come together and they can offer co-operation to the Government. As I see it, the Government, in turning this amendment down, are throwing it back in their faces. I do not think that is good enough: it is quite heart-breaking and I still wish the Government would think again.
Let them come together. Do have a heart about the tenants and let us try to solve this almost intractable problem of repairs. It is now in a terrible state. Really there must be progress and there cannot be progress unless the Government, the local authorities and the tenants can come together and can co-operate and understand one another. That is what I am pleading for.
9.47 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 45) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 22; Not-Contents, 45.

DIVISION NO.3

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Birk, B.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Bishopston, L. [Teller.]

Molloy, L.

David, B.

Mulley, L.

Dean of Beswick, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Denington, B.

Rea, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Robson of Kiddington, B.

Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Hanworth, V.

Stone, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Underhill, L.

Jeger, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Avon, E.

Margadale, L.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Marley, L.

Bellwin, L.

Maude of Stratford-upon- Avon, L.

Belstead, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Mersey, V.

Broxbourne, L.

Molson, L.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Morris, L.

Coleraine, L.

Mottistone, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Moyne, L.

Elton, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Enniskillen, E.

Norfolk, D.

Faithfull, B.

Pender, L.

Gardner of Parkes, B.

Renton, L.

Glanusk, L.

Selkirk, E.

Glenarthur, L.

Simon of Glaisdale, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Greenway, L.

Swinton, E. [Teller.]

Hives, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Trumpington, B.

Kemsley, L.

Vaizey, L.

Long, V.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Lyell, L.

Vickers, B.

McAlpine of West Green, L.

Whitelaw, V.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
9.54 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton moved Amendment No. 46A:
After Clause 28, insert the following new clause:
("Amendment to section 43(1) of the Housing Act 1980.
For section 43(1) of the Housing Act 1980 there shall be substituted the following subsection—
"(1) Every Landlord Authority shall make and maintain arrangements to enable those of its secure tenants who are likely to be substantially affected by a housing management matter or an increase in rent—

(a) to be informed individually of the Authority's proposal;

(b) to make known their views of the Authority within a reasonable specified period;

(c) to be consulted through tenants' associations which are substantially representative of the tenants of that Authority either a a whole or as to identifiable estates and localities.".").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, very briefly, in view of the lateness of the hour—some of us have been here throughout the sitting—may I explain that the philosophy behind this new clause is to extend the rights of consultation for tenants. The Government are entitled to tell us that they have done a great deal in extending the rights of tenants over a range of issues. But, as the Minister has seen, we are especially concerned about rights when rent increases take place, and we also want to see that consultation takes place with tenants individually as well as with their organisations, whether they are borough-wide or

1457
estate-wide. We shall be grateful to have the observations of the Minister on the amendment. My Lords, I beg to move.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the noble Lord has made another brief, yet rather valiant, attempt to add rents to the consultation process. Carefully though I listened to the argument, I have to say that I am still not persuaded that the proposal is justified. We considered it most carefully when we received many representations following our consultation paper, and during the passage of the Housing Bill in 1980. I am convinced that local authorities would be as totally opposed to any requirement to consult over rent levels as they were when the proposal was first made in 1980. The amendment is effectively concerned not only with rent increases as a whole, but with individual rents. The proposed extra duty would be extremely onerous on local authorities and would add substantially to their administrative costs. It would, in short, achieve little or nothing, and would discredit the consultation process.
Broadly similar considerations apply to the other main strand of the amendment. This seeks to remove a landlord authority's discretion to make such arrangements as it considers necessary in the light of local circumstances to enable secure tenants to be consulted over matters of housing management. It would be replaced by a duty on landlords to notify every tenant individually and, moreover, to consult them through representative associations. I do not think that effective consultation can usefully be carried out by rigid legislation of this type. Consultation is a two-way process to be undertaken willingly by participants. It is something which this Government very much wish to encourage, but I am not convinced of the need to tie a landlord authority's hands in the way proposed which would add considerably to administrative costs and achieve little or nothing. Therefore I ask the House to reject the proposal.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, the Minister does not need to ask for rejection of this amendment because I intend to withdraw it. I am disappointed. I appreciate that this is not the first time round the course for this proposal. I am interested in the Minister's statement that this would be the unanimous view of the landlord authorities. I should need to find out whether that is the case. There will be other opportunities to raise the issue. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.57 p.m.
Lord Skelmersdale Lord Skelmersdale moved Amendments Nos. 47 and 48:
[Printed earlier: col. 1374.]
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendments Nos. 47 and 48 en bloc. They are consequential.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord can explain to me what is meant by the words in Amendment No. 48 which read:
1458
"and this Part of this Act, the dwelling-house shall be deemed to be freed from any trust arising solely by virtue of its being land held in trust".
How far do the words,
"freed from any trust arising solely by virtue of its being land held in trust"
go? Do they mean freed from any aspect of the trust? Who decides what aspects of the trust it is freed from? Can the Minister give us a slightly better explanation of what is intended here?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend, who has taken me by surprise. If he would allow me to do so, I should prefer to write to him rather than to respond now to his question.
The Earl of Selkirk: My Lords, I shall have to be content with that answer, though I should have liked to be sure that when this matter is put before a court the words are reasonably comprehensible. I personally find it extremely difficult to understand how far they go—but I readily accept what my noble friend has said.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I, too, had underlined those same words, so I shall be very grateful if the noble Lord the Minister will send to me a copy of the letter he sends to the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 32 [Provisions as respects certain tenants of charitable housing associations etc]:
Lord Skelmersdale Lord Skelmersdale moved Amendment No. 49:
Page 35, line 8, at end insert—
("()Part II of Schedule 1A to the 1980 Act (qualification and discount):").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is consequential upon Amendment No. 4.1 beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Denham: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at one minute past ten o'clock.

  MR. SHANE O'DOHERTY
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