Sitting of 3 November 1983

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS
    BRITISH RAILWAYS BILL

      NOTTINGHAMSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
      Orders for consideration read.
      To be considered upon Thursday 10 November.

  SHREWSBURY AND ATCHAM BOROUGH COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
    TEES AND HARTLEPOOL PORT AUTHORITY BILL (By Order)

      DARTFORD TUNNEL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
      Orders for Second Reading read.
      To be read a Second time upon Thursday 10 November.

Oral Answers to Questions
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    "Domestic Nuclear Shelters"
    Mr. Squiresasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intends to issue a revised edition of "Domestic Nuclear Shelters".
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Douglas Hurd): No, Sir, but the material, updated as necessary, will be included in a new publication which we are planning for issue next year.
    Mr. Squire: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the need for a greater provision of public nuclear shelters so that this country, like so many others—many of them behind the iron curtain — has an adequate defence against possible attack, however remote that appears?
    Mr. Hurd: We do not believe that the low risk of war would justify our spending millions of pounds on purpose-built public shelters. The regulations that Parliament has now approved require local authorities to make plans for using existing buildings and other features as shelters for the public, and I believe that that is a step forward.
    Mr. Alex Carlile: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that the Government do not intend to provide shelters for the protection of the public in the event of war?
    Mr. Hurd: I have already answered that question.
    Mr. Neil Thorne: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the possibility of including a provision for
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    underground shelters in new buildings? Will he consider laying down some standards to incorporate this so that if such an emergency occurred these areas could be converted quickly and we would not have to start from scratch?
    Mr. Hurd: My hon. Friend's suggestion would add considerably to construction costs, increasing the cost of a typical three-bedroomed house by about 25 per cent. We would have to weigh the idea against the risk of war, which we believe to be low.
    Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Much as I respect the Minister, I regard his first answer as wholly lacking in urgency. It is not good enough. [Interruption.] Perhaps those baying hounds among the Opposition would be better off outside the Chamber. A number of my constituents who have been in touch with me—they are by no means supporters of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament—want up-to-date advice on how best they can look after themselves and their families, and my right hon. Friend's answer is not good enough.
    Mr. Hurd: We are working on this matter. We want to get it right. I assure my hon. Friend that next year we shall be doing something which I hope she will find worth while and useful.

    Public Order Act 1936
    Mr. Lawrenceasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has completed his review of the Public Order Act 1936; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Leon Brittan): Work on the review is nearing completion.
    Mr. Lawrence: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that offenders are going unpunished because the public order laws are obscure and difficult to apply? Does he also agree that the sooner those laws are made certain, relevant and plain for all to see, the sooner will relations between the police and the community improve and lawlessness in our society decrease?
    Mr. Brittan: I would not put the situation quite as strongly as my hon. and learned Friend. The review was set in train because we thought that the law required examination.
    Mr. Norman Atkinson: Does the Home Secretary agree that among those crimes that are unpunished under the Public Order Act 1936 is the exhibition of racist leaflets and banners during a demonstration? No prosecutions follow such actions. Does he agree that we should now consider allowing members of the public to submit complaints against the police for non-prosecution of those distributing racist literature, and allow those complaints to go to the Director of Public Prosecutions for subsequent prosecution?
    Mr. Brittan: It is always open to any member of the public who thinks that an offence has been committed to submit evidence in support of that view to the relevant prosecuting authorities. What is more, I would encourage anyone to do so.
    Mr. Greg Knight: Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider introducing powers for static demonstrations similar to those that exist in respect of processions and marches, and, if not, why not?
    Mr. Brittan: That is one of the main points that the review will cover. I have considerable sympathy for my hon. Friend's view. Whether it is practicable to take that step will be considered during the course of the review.
    Mr. Janner: In view of the patent weakness of the Public Order Act to deal with such evil manifestations as National Front parades, marches and demonstrations at the Cenotaph service during the forthcoming Armistice and Rememberance observances, will the Minister, in considering amendments to the Act, take care to see that such activities can be banned?
    Mr. Brittan: The concept of public order disturbances should be at the centre of such legislation. I understand and share the anxiety expressed by the hon. and learned Gentleman about the activities of the organisations that he has in mind.

    Home Defence College, Easingwold
    Mr. Colin Shepherdasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has yet chosen a new name for the home defence college, Easingwold.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Waddington): The college at Easingwold is now known as the civil defence college.
    Mr. Shepherd: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that that is a far more appropriate name? Will the college be used for training volunteers?
    Mr. Waddington: The college is already used by volunteers. In 1982, 546 attended courses there. It is estimated that 700 will go there this year.

    Fine Defaulters
    Mr. Alex Carlileasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many fine defaulters are currently in prison; and what is the average term served in respect of fine default.
    Mr. Waddington: About 900 fine defaulters were in custody on 31 July 1983, the latest date for which information is available. The average time served by fine defaulters discharged in 1982 was about 14 days. Fine defaulters accounted for about 24,500 receptions in that year.
    Mr. Carlile: Do the Government agree that this is an unnecessary and expensive use of imprisonment? If so, what alternatives will be introduced to replace the imprisonment of fine defaulters?
    Mr. Waddington: We certainly agree that it is an unhappy state of affairs that so much time is taken up by the reception of fine defaulters.
    Plainly, we must assist magistrates' courts in their duty to have regard to offenders' means when setting the level of fines. An experiment is in hand into the use of pre-trial means inquiry reports. We are examining the possibility of allowing courts to impose community service orders on fine defaulters. Consideration is also being given to the day-fine system.
    Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that while fine defaulters represent only 3 per cent. of the average daily prison population, they nevertheless constitute one quarter of all receptions and therefore impose considerable burdens on the already over-burdened local prisons? As much of that is due to variations in enforcement practice by the courts, would it not be sensible for him to circulate courts asking them to state why every alternative enforcement measure cannot be used, before they impose a prison sentence?
    Mr. Waddington: The figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman are, of course, entirely correct. They reveal a serious state of affairs. I assure the hon. Gentleman that all these matters are under review.

    Prison Population
    Mr. Dubsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the latest figure for the size of the prison population; and how many people are currently being held in police and court cells.
    Mr. Brittan: On the night of 27 October the prison population was 43,898. plus 259 prisoners in police cells.
    Mr. Dubs: Does the Home Secretary stand by previous Home Office commitments that prisoners in police and court cells should be removed as soon as possible? The figures that he has quoted show that he is a long way from achieving that aim. What urgent action does he have in mind to remove prisoners from such degrading conditions?
    Mr. Brittan: I made the commitment and I stand by it. We are bringing new accommodation into use—for example, at Highpoint and Standford Hill, re-commissioning refurbished stock such as that at Blundeston and making better use of existing accommodation by receiving prisoners at training prisons more that once a week. I hope in that way, subject to unforeseen developments, to honour my commitment.
    Mr. Budgen: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that if he makes it too easy for those serving short sentences to apply for and obtain parole he will reduce the number of people in prisons but undermine public confidence in the criminal justice system?
    Mr. Brittan: Were Ito do that, it would have the effect that my hon. Friend mentions. I have no intention of doing so. The proposal I shall be putting forward in due course to reduce the minimum qualifying period for parole will involve a case-by-case consideration of each prisoner by the authorities. The decision whether to grant a release will remain ultimately with the Home Secretary.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Given that parole is a way of reducing the prison population, why cannot the Home Secretary give reasons when he turns down parole board recommendations for parole? Is he aware that in many cases, including the well-known Richardson case — a gentleman who is a constituent of mine—people are never told the reasons for refusal?
    Mr. Brittan: The granting of parole is an executive and not a judicial act. Different considerations therefore apply to whether reasons should be given compared, for example, with the determination by a court.
    Ms. Clare Short: Is the Home Secretary aware that there are large numbers of 15-year-olds in our local

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    prisons? Some hundreds of 15-year-olds are locked up in Winson Green, the local prison in my constituency. The prison staff are greatly upset by that and have told me more than once that they find it distressing to have to lock up young people who are not even old enough to smoke. Is the Home Secretary satisfied that we are using prison resources properly when we lock up such young people in degrading conditions?
    Mr. Brittan: I agree with the hon. Lady that the imprisonment of people of that age should not occur except where there is no alternative. If the hon. Lady has any examples of cases where she thinks there is a practicable alternative, I hope that she will let me know.
    Mr. Dickens: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the previous Conservative Government announced the biggest prison-building programme in the country's history?
    Mr. Brittan: That is certainly the case, and, as I said recently, I propose to accelerate and extend the prison-building programme put in hand by my predecessors. I shall make an announcement to that effect shortly.

    Trespass
    Mr. Colvinasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he will be publishing his review of the law relating to trespass on residential properties.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Mellor): My right hon. and learned Friend will be announcing his conclusions on the review very shortly.
    Mr. Colvin: Does my hon. Friend agree that if an offence of trespass on premises is to be created, it should offer protection to all and not to specific premises such as Buckingham palace?
    Mr. Mellor: Without anticipating the statement that my right hon. and learned Friend will make shortly, I believe that there is a good deal in what my hon. Friend has said.

    Pensioners (Television Licences)
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received about free television licences for pensioners; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Dormandasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any plans to abolish the television licence fee for retired pensioners; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hurd: During the past six months we have received representations from four hon. Members and 10 members of the public about free television licences for retirement pensioners. We have no plans to introduce concessionary licences for pensioners generally, which would put up substantially the cost of the licence to others.
    Mr. Skinner: What justice is there when top people can live most of the year in posh hotels and not pay a penny piece towards the licence fee while pensioners, who have been robbed and cheated by the Government over the past four years, have to pay the full £46? The Minister of State should not give me any of that nonsense about the BBC
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    not having any money, because only the other week it agreed a contract with David Dimbleby, that anti-NUJ man who works for the BBC, for a £12,000 payment— [Interruption.]
    Mr. Hurd: The hon. Gentleman's proposal would deprive the BBC of about one-third of its revenue. That would mean that the present fee for a colour licence for non-pensioners would increase to about £70 a year.
    Mr. Dormand: Is the Minister aware of how important television is to many retired people, many of whom find considerable difficulty in paying the licence fee? If the argument is—as it seems to be—one of cost, how does he reconcile saving what can only be described as peanuts with the astronomical sums that are being spent on the Falkland islands and will be spent on Trident?
    Mr. Hurd: There are people, particularly old people, who, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, find it difficult to pay the lump sum of £46. That is why there are various schemes to make it possible for them to pay by instalments. However, if one is talking about taxpayers' money, most pensioners would probably prefer it to he used to buttress the value of the existing pension, which they can spend on anything they choose.
    Mrs. Currie: Does my right hon. Friend agree that nothing causes more resentment among pensioners than the fact that most of them must pay the full licence fee while a small number living in warden serviced accommodation pay only 5p a year? Does he further agree that while concessions of this kind may look very nice when they are granted, ultimately they cause more trouble than they are worth?
    Mr. Hurd: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and those who in 1969 devised the present concessionary scheme could not have had any idea of the difficulties to which it would give rise; but it is not easy to improve it.
    Rev. Martin Smyth: Is the Minister aware that more than the number of pensioners he gave in his main answer have made approaches to me, and that there have been petitions on behalf of pensioners seeking a concessionary television licence?
    Mr. Hurd: Naturally all pensioners would like to benefit from a concessionary fee, but the figures I have given illustrate the difficulty of going that far.
    Mr. Cormack: Has my right hon. Friend any idea of how much would be involved if pensioners were allowed to have free licences for black and white sets?
    Mr. Hurd: Obviously it would be much less, but I doubt whether that is what they want.
    Mr. Wigley: As nearly every household has television, has the Minister seriously considered abolishing licences and getting the revenue from general taxation, particularly from progressive taxation, so avoiding the bureaucracy involved in the issue of licences?
    Mr. Hurd: That idea has often been considered but it would undermine, and perhaps destroy, the independence of the BBC, which is one of its main assets.
    Sir Anthony Grant: Will my right hon. Friend take into consideration the interests of pensioners in my constituency and elsewhere who pay their rates and taxes who cannont stand the beastly television, who do not have it and who resent paying for other people to see it?
    Mr. Hurd: My hon. Friend has raised an important point.
    Mr. James Hamilton: While the Minister talks about the licence having to be increased by about one-third if old-age pensioners received concessionary licences, will he note that point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) that, without exception, each hotel, with colour television in every room pays for only one licence? Is he aware that if the Government really had a desire to help old-age pensioners they could raise the necessary money to provide them all with concessionary licences?
    Mr. Hurd: No, the sums do not add up that way, but we are looking at the hotel problem.
    Mr. Michael Forsyth: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it does not follow that because somebody is a pensioner he or she is necessarily unable to afford the licence? Is he further aware that it would be unacceptable for those who find difficulty in paying their colour licence fee and who are not pensioners, to be penalised at the expense of those pensioners who can?
    Mr. Hurd: That is right, and if we adopted the proposal of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), hon. Members in all parts of the House would be deluged with complaints from the people referred to by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Denis Howell: Will the Minister accept that there are so many anomalies in this area, particularly between the cheap availability of television in five-star hotels and the 5p concessionary scheme, that it should be reviewed? Does he understand that all the arguments he adduced today were exactly the arguments used against the introduction of free travel for old people years ago, a step which has proved to be a great social benefit to the country as a whole? Is he aware that the responsibility in this case should be not that of licence holders, but of the entire nation in the interests of old people, for whom an increasing number of people wish to see the provision of concessionary licences?
    Mr. Hurd: We are not responsible for the 1969 scheme, which is causing so much difficulty. We are looking at the matter all the time, and we may be able to make some minor improvements before too long.

    Mandatory Sentences
    Mr. Marlowasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce mandatory additional sentences for offences including the use of firearms or other weapons.
    Mr. Brittan: I consider it unnecessary to make additional sentences mandatory, since criminals carrying firearms can already expect to receive a sentence of imprisonment consecutive to that imposed for the substantive offence. As I have recently indicated, those who murder with firearms in the course of crime can expect to serve a minimum of 20 years. I shall also be bringing forward legislation at a suitable opportunity to increase to life imprisonment the maximum penalty for carrying firearms in furtherance of crime.
    Mr. Marlow: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that his recent statements and commitments on this
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    subject have been massively reassuring to the nation, which is now convinced that not only do we have inflation under control, and not only is the economy on the mend, but that the Government are at long last gripping the problem of law and order and violence on our streets?
    Mr. Brittan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks.
    Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the gravity of firearms offences, as well as the culpability of offenders, varies considerably? For example, it might be an unloaded firearm, a sawn-off shotgun or an air pistol and it might be used by a sophisticated hardened criminal or by a teenager who has been intimidated and forced into the offence. In those circumstances, is it not sensible to allow the courts the discretion to fit the sentence to the circumstances of the offence and the offender?
    Mr. Brittan: I agree.
    Mr. Kaufman: Will the Secretary of State include among offences involving the use of firearms the shooting down in cold blood of women exercising their rights to demonstrate and thereby using the freedoms that this Government say they exist to defend?
    Mr. Brittan: I take this opportunity to welcome the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) and his colleagues to the Opposition Front Bench and wish them a long and happy time there.
    I am unaware of any such event happening as that to which he referred. It is one thing to assert the right to demonstrate peacefully, even in support of a cause with which one does not agree, but it is quite another to arrogate to oneself the right to interpose physically and in so doing seek to prevent the exercise of a policy that has received the approval of the country and this House.
    Mr. Kaufman: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his kind welcome and I hope that I shall have the same kind of relationship with him as I had with his right hon. Friend who is now the Secretary of State for Defence when he was Secretary of State for the Environment.
    May I take it from his answer that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying that if a policy is carried by Parliament and people oppose it by civil disobedience, civil disobedience is to be regarded as a capital offence?
    Mr. Brittan: The right hon. Gentleman does not for one moment believe that what I said bears that implication.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Given that the Home Secretary is obviously concerned about the issue of firearms, will he institute a thorough review of the use by the police of firearms, particularly after the Waldorf affair, including all the guidelines and instructions that were issued in that incident and all similar incidents in the past, and produce a report to the House?
    Mr. Brittan: I am expecting a report on that incident. I shall consider, in relation to that report, whether any changes are required in the guidance that was issued. The hon. Gentleman will recall that fresh guidance was issued when the incident occurred, long before the proceedings were completed. I shall review that and look at such questions as the training of officers who might be expected to bear firearms.

    Parliamentary Election Deposits
    Mr. Wigleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any plans to change the regulations concerning parliamentary election deposits.
    Mr. Mellor: The Government are consulting the political parties represented in the House on the Home Affairs Select Committee's recommendation that the deposit should be raised to £1,000 and the threshold lowered to 7·5 per cent.
    Mr. Wigley: In view of your recent ruling, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should declare an interest on this question. Will the Minister give an assurance that, in considering the increases in deposits, he will bear in mind the need not to drive away from the legitimate ballot box operation all interest groups which should have an opportunity to stand for Parliament, and that if, regrettably, the amount of deposit does increase, the percentage who keep it will be reduced substantially, possibly even lower than 7·5 per cent?
    Mr. Mellor: When I announced this at Blackpool the other week I tried to make it clear that we saw considerable attraction in a proposal to reduce the threshold even lower than 7·5 per cent. to 5 per cent. I think that the hon. Gentleman will already have received a letter from my right hon. and learned Friend inviting his comments and full participation in the discussions that are taking place. We shall obviously pursue those discussions with the honourable intention of getting the maximum agreement for the proposals.
    Mr. Bottomley: Will my hon. Friend consider reducing the threshold to say, 5 per cent., because otherwise there might be a great temptation for local Lib/ Lab pacts, which might suit one or the other of those political parties but which would have an undesirable effect if they ought to be competing at parliamentary elections throughout the country?
    Mr. Mellor: I have already said that we believe that there is a case for reducing the threshold to 5 per cent.
    Mr. Corbett: Will the Minister and his colleagues resist the temptation to price people out of parliamentary elections? Will he look instead at the possiblity of raising the number of signatures required for nomination as an alternative?
    Mr. Mellor: In our opinion, that is not a viable alternative, but, as I think the hon. Gentleman well knows, the £150 that was set in 1918, would, fully indexed, be over £2,000 today. In saying that we would start the discussions at a figure of about £1,000, we took a great deal of note of the point that the hon. Gentleman makes.
    Mr. Robert Atkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that anyone in this country should have the right to stand for Parliament, representing a particular point of view — whether we agree with it or not—and that it would therefore be wiser to increase the number of signatures required as evidence of some measure of support than to restrict people from standing by increasing the deposit?
    Mr. Mellor: As I think I made clear earlier, and with great respect to my hon. Friend, we do not consider that that proposal would be advantageous.
    Mr. Canavan: Why not?
    Mr. Mellor: In our view, the proposal that a sum of money should be put up by candidates is an eminently proper way to proceed, and it has been the way that we have always proceeded. 'We are consulting about the proposal to increase that amount so that we may determine what it should be.
    Mr. Alex Carlile: Bearing in mind the record number of deposits lost by the Labour party at the last election, despite the energetic campaigning on their behalf by the Prime Minister against the parties of the alliance, do the Government agree that it would be fairer to combine an increase in the number of signatures on the nomination paper with an increase in the threshold, instead of this slavish regard to monetary matters?
    Mr. Mellor: The leader of the hon. Gentleman's party has already received an invitation to participate in the discussions on these matters. No doubt, if he agrees with the hon. Gentleman—in the alliance one should never take that for granted—he will put that view forward.

    Electoral Law Reform
    Mr. John Townendasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has now decided on the action he intends to take following the recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee that voters on holiday should be able to apply for a postal vote.
    Mr. Nicholas Bakerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now bring forward proposals for the reform of electoral law.
    Mr. Brittan: The Government are consulting the political parties represented in the House on the main recommendations of the Home Affairs Select Committee, including an extension of absent voting arrangements to electors who are away on holiday on the day of the poll. In the light of their views, and subject to the usual constraints on the legislative programme, it is the Government's intention to introduce legislation next Session giving effect to this and other changes in electoral law.
    Mr. Townend: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that that reply will be widely welcomed? Does he agree that the removal of this iniquity is long overdue, and that the major responsibility for that lies with opposition from the Labour party? Will he confirm that the Government now intend to give holidaymakers the right to vote, even if opposition from the Labour party continues?
    Mr. Brittan: Giving holidaymakers the right to vote is a natural extension of democracy. I therefore hope that all who support democracy will be in favour of it. I know that the Labour party has not been in favour of this step in the past, but I also know that the proposal is in line with the recommendations of the Home Affairs Select Committee. I therefore hope that when we discuss these matters it will be possible to find a way forward which commands consent, although obviously no one party can be allowed a veto in a matter of this kind.
    Mr. Nicholas Baker: In proposing an extension of voting rights to qualifying British citizens who work abroad, will my right hon. and learned Friend ensure that that will apply to citizens working not just in Europe but

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    throughout the world? Will he also consider reviewing his present opinion about voting by Irish citizens here, because many of us still believe that that is anomalous?
    Mr. Brittan: Details of any scheme for voting by citizens overseas can be worked out only in the light of the comments of the political parties. A number of issues are discussed in the Select Committee's report. The degree of the extension is one that we shall need to consider. My hon. Friend will of course be aware of the views of the Select Committee on the subject of Irish voters.
    Mr. Donald Stewart: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that many in the House and outside will welcome his undertaking to extend democracy in this way and so end this deprivation of voting rights affecting people who are away from their homes for two or three weeks a year? Is he further aware that the position has become more ridiculous because, from evidence available in many constituencies, it is known that people who simply say that they will be away on business received the vote as of right?
    Mr. Brittan: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. In putting forward the view that I have today, I am reflecting the fact that public discontent with being disenfranchised at the last general election was substantial in all parts of the country and among supporters of all political parties.
    Sir Paul Hawkins: Will my right hon. and learned Friend recognise, as I am sure he does, that my constituents will greatly welcome what he says? However, will he bear in mind the administrative difficulties that it will produce, both for the civil servants managing the work and for agents in the constituencies?
    Mr. Brittan: I am glad that my hon. Friend makes that point. It is precisely because of the genuine difficulties that he has identified that action of this kind has not been taken earlier. I very much hope that we shall be able to reduce the difficulties, take care of the administrative problems, and thus put forward an extension of democracy that is practicable.
    Mr. Adley: Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept the thanks of a large number of my constituents, on whose behalf I made representations? May I say how glad we are that he has agreed to act decisively? Will he see whether arrangements can still be made so that those who go on holiday to Benidorm can have the same rights as those who go on holiday to Blackpool?
    Mr. Brittan: That would be the ideal and I hope that I shall be able to help.
    Mr. Winnick: On the subject of electoral law, why should parties be able to spend as much as they like nationally while candidates are strictly limited, and rightly so, as to the amount that they spend in an election campaign? Is there not a clear contradiction here? Does the Home Secretary intend to clear it up?
    Mr. Brittan: I do not think I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says, but if he wishes to make further representations on the matter there is still time to do so before the matter is considered.
    Mr. Dubs: Does the Home Secretary agree that giving holidaymakers the vote is, in effect, giving postal voting
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    on demand? Surely, that would require more accurate voting lists than we have at present. What is the right hon. and learned Gentleman doing about that?
    Mr. Brittan: We shall need to look at that issue in the course of the consultations.

    Air Weapons
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to discourage the misuse of air weapons.
    Mr. Hurd: The Government will be holding a national publicity campaign before Christmas to increase public awareness of the dangers of the misuse of air weapons and to encourage safe practice. The campaign will be launched by the Home Office on Tuesday 8 November.
    Mr. Chapman: I welcome the national publicity campaign, which is surely a response to the strong evidence of the increasing misuse of airguns and air rifles. However, does my right hon. Friend agree that the laws relating to the use of air weapons are extremely complicated and confusing, as instanced by the fact that there are four completely different sets of rules concerning four different age groups in our society? Will he sympathetically consider tightening and simplifying the laws and regulations?
    Mr. Hurd: I am not sure that the law is all that complicated. It is strong,and nearly every case of serious misuse involves a breach of the law. Perhaps we should see how we get on with our campaign for drawing attention to the law and to the right way of using airguns.
    Mr. Denis Howell: Has the Minister yet had time to consider the evidence that I sent to the Home Secretary recently, showing that three types of airguns and nine types of air rifles are now being advertised by Empire Catalogues? As one tenth of serious crimes now involve firearms, and there is growing public concern about that, will the Minister take account of this new trend and assure us that he will do everything that he can to see that the sale of firearms is restricted to sporting, countryside and other legitimate interests?
    Mr. Hurd: Yes, we are watching this carefully, but our present view is that a ban on mail order sales would serve very little purpose.

    Metropolitan Police
    Mr. Greenwayasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the current strength of the Metropolitan police against its establishment; how many officers are from ethnic minority backgrounds; and how these figures compare with those for five years previously.
    Mr. Waddington: During the past five years the strength of the Metropolitan police has increased by 4,963 to 26,638 at the end of September 1983. Its establishment has increased by 326 to 26,915. During the same period the number of police officers in the force who are from the ethnic minorities has increased by 128 to 211.
    Mr. Greenway: Are not these figures welcome, and clear evidence of the Government's successes in moving towards higher standards of law and order? Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that formerly sensitive areas are now much better policed and that the Commissioner of

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    Police of the Metropolis is deploying resources more effectively than ever before towards a reduction of violent crime such as mugging and burglary in the Metropolitan area?
    Mr. Waddington: I agree with my hon. Friend that the figures are encouraging, but we should like to see more recruits from the ethnic minorities. The figures are steadily increasing, but greater efforts should be made and a special recruitment campaign has been conducted in the ethnic minority press in the past three years.
    Mr. Pavitt: Will the Minister now take a special look at areas where there are high proportions of ethnic minorities—for example in Harlesden, where more than 60 per cent. of the population is part of an ethnic minority — with a view to introducing fresh initiatives for recruitment. particularly among schools careers officers and school leavers, such as lectures to sixth forms? Will he try to do something to dispel the problem that arises with the new police powers to stop persons, proposed in the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill, about which the ethnic minorities feel particularly sensitive?
    Mr. Waddington: It is not for me to go into the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill, but I shall bear in mind the other points made by the hon. Gentleman, while repeating that it is possible that we should look into the whole issue of recruitment among people from ethnic minorities.
    Mr. Aitken: Has my hon. and learned Friend noticed the small but encouraging increase in the recruitment to the special constabulary of the Metropolitan police? Will he do everything to encourage this trend, not least because the special constabulary is a useful bridge between the police and the community they serve?
    Mr. Waddington: Yes, I agree with what my hon. Friend has said.
    Mr. Madden: We all accept the need for more officers to be recruited from the ethnic minority background. However, is not the Minister concerned at the recent leaked academic report, which showed the extent of racist attitudes in the Metropolitan police among all ranks, including senior officers? What does the Minister plan to do to stop racism in the Metropolitan police?
    Mr. Waddington: I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to a report by the Policy Studies Institute. I remind him that it is greatly to the credit of the Metropolitan police that it should have commissioned such a report. A number of matters raised in that report have already led to action.
    Mr. Parris: Has my hon. and learned Friend noticed what the Derbyshire constabulary is doing to attract more people from the ethnic minorities into the police force? Without in any way lowering the entrance qualifications, it is trying to get more people from the ethnic minorities into the cadet school. Is this not a helpful and interesting experiment?
    Mr. Waddington: I agree with my hon. Friend, and it might be worth while commenting on what is happening in London, where some candidates attend instruction classes run by the industrial language training unit of the Inner London education authority.
    Mr. Townend: Does my hon and learned Friend recall that many London Conservative Members spent much of
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    the last Parliament asking for a review of the Metropolitan police establishment, which is way out of date? Now that we have the police in London up to strength, can we have an urgent review of the establishment? Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that when there are demonstrations in inner London, outer London is very vulnerable?
    Mr. Waddington: My right hon. and learned Friend will have heard what my hon. Friend has said.

    Civil Defence Studies (Research)
    Mr. McQuarrieasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his Department is sponsoring any research at universities in civil defence studies.
    Mr. Hurd: Not at present, Sir, but we rely extensively on the voluntary advice of academics in civil defence.
    Mr. McQuarrie: My right hon. Friend will no doubt agree that this country has not been connected with a major war for 38 years. However, will he accept that the fact that the Civil Service conditions and regulations have become a little out of date over that period, and that the likelihood of nuclear weapons being used in any major war in the future has increased, means that it is imperative that universities should be given the opportunity for intensive research to secure the safety of our citizens?
    Mr. Hurd: My hon. Friend is right in saying that the plans, both of central Government and local authorities, should be kept up to date. The new regulations that Parliament has just approved will enable us to do so. If my hon. Friend has any ideas about academic research that might be useful, I hope that he will let me know of them.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mr. Hal Millerasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 3 November.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today.
    Mr. Miller: Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to remind the House of the importance of next month's meeting of Heads of European Governments in Athens for much-needed reform of the Community budget? Does she accept that she and the Foreign Secretary deserve the support of both sides of the House in their endeavours to bring about an early and acceptable solution to that problem?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is correct. The meeting at Athens is extremely important because it will involve the reform of the common agricultural policy and the reform of the method used and the amounts that the various states contribute to the budget. It will follow a series of other meetings of Foreign Ministers at which my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary has been pursuing our viewpoint. vigorously and steadfastly, and with his customary total grasp of the complexities involved.
    Mr. Kinnock: I earnestly welcome the fall of 10,000 in the unemployment trend, but ask the Prime Minister how long it will be, at this rate, before we can regain the 1·9 million jobs lost since she first took office?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his welcome of the small reduction in unemployment. We hope that the reduction will prove to be greater in the coming months. How long it will be before we get back to lower levels of unemployment will depend upon the attitudes taken by those who work in industry, the success of those who design in industry, on unit costs, way costs per unit and on how we are able to sell and compete in the world against those who would take our business both here and abroad.
    Mr. Kinnock: While those may be contributory factors, does not the right hon. Lady recognise that the Government have a direct and central responsibility? Can she afford to wait, because at the present rate it will take 16 years to get those 1·9 million jobs back? As today's better figures are almost entirely a product of a mini-recovery fueled by record household borrowing, can the right hon. Lady tell us whether she thinks this is a dependable upturn in the economy?
    The Prime Minister: There are a number of indicators that would seem to suggest that the recovery is under way [Interruption.] I am naturally cautious, and the recovery, as I have frequently said, is patchy and uneven, but industrial output is up, and gross national product is up. As to the right hon. Gentleman's question on unemployment and what a Government can do in the present circumstances to reduce it, my reply is that they can keep down inflation, because by keeping down inflation the Government help industry to be competitive. Inflation is down and it is significant that at a time when inflation has been down for some considerable time, employment is turning up. The Government can also keep down overheads such as rates and national insurance surcharge. The right hon. Gentleman's Government were very adept at putting up national insurance surcharge, but we have removed £2 billion worth of it.
    Mr. Bottomley: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the welcome substantial increases last year in the output of cars and steel owes much to the decisions taken within those industries about getting their prices right and in getting their productivity output up? Does she further agree that it would be wrong for the Leader of the Oppositon to expect any political leader, Conservative or Labour, to be able to make up for bad decisions taken by others? We should not take all the credit for the good decisions. We should welcome the output improvements.
    The Prime Minister: I think that the welcome figures for car production, which were 23 per cent. up in the latest six months over the previous six months and 28 per cent. higher than a year earlier, owe something to what my hon. Friend said. The excellent results in productivity are much better than previous results although we still have some way to go to compete fully with our competitors. Good design and the determination of those who work in the car industry to compete with other car industries the world over is welcomed on both sides of the House.
    Mr. Steel: As the Prime Minister is personally committed to cutting public expendture, will she explain why the quango that she set up to monitor local authority
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    spending has started its work by paying its members and staff salaries higher than those in local authorities or in the Civil Service?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to the new Audit Commission. It has a highly responsible job to do and it must get the best people available to do that job. I expect that the Commission will show up exactly where there are extravagances in local authorities and will be able to point to where economies can be found.
    Mr. Churchill: Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the Labour party has adopted as policy the concept of a nuclear freeze, first advanced by the Kremlin? Is it not the case that if such a policy were to be adopted it would mean the endorsement of the presently unacceptably high nuclear stockpiles of both super-powers, would undermine the possibility of achieving multilateral disarmament negotiations, and would let the Soviet Union off the hook of having to reduce by even a single missile?
    The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. To suggest a nuclear freeze in some aspects of nuclear missiles would freeze in a Soviet superiority on intermediate missiles. Such a superiority would not enable us to reduce weapons. Our policy is to reduce the stockpile of nuclear weapons so that we have a balance.
    Mr. Meadowcroftasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 3 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Meadowcroft: Will the Prime Minister solve a puzzle for us? Will she explain how, despite her protestations that the National Health Service is safe in her Government's hands, and despite the global figures quoted by the Secretary of State, hundreds of hospital beds cannot be used, complete wards are being closed and even whole hospitals are now threatened?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that under Labour and Conservative Governments hospitals have been closed. Indeed, under the last Labour Government more hospitals were closed than under the last Conservative Government—a good deal more. They are often closed for good reasons. Some of the smaller ones are closed to enable much better and specialised services to be undertaken at some of the larger hospitals. Whatever the hon. Gentleman wishes to say about the National Health Service, I can only point out that the latest available figures, which compare 1978 with 1981, show that there are now 640,000 more inpatient and day cases, 2 million more outpatient and emergency cases being treated, 18 per cent. more geriatric inpatients, 14 per cent. more geriatric outpatients, 2 million more courses of dental treatment, 620,000 more sight tests and 400,000 more people, many of them elderly, visited at home.
    That is a splendid improvement over the record of any previous Government.
    Mr. Squire: As a fellow Greater London Member, will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning the latest action by the GLC in appointing to the board of London Transport someone who is not merely the chairman of the London Labour party but a 25-year-old with no previous relevant experience? Does she agree that in addition to probably hampering the operational arrangements of

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    London Transport, the appointment lends further weight to the argument for transferring the whole responsibility for London Transport from the GLC at the earliest possible opportunity?
    The Prime Minister: I saw the report to which my hon. Friend refers but I note that the appointment in question has yet to be approved by the full council. When it meets I hope it will take careful note of its statutory responsibilities to consult the chairman and to appoint people with the necessary experience and qualifications. I also take note of my hon. Friend's second point, that if some of these matters go through we must consider taking action to protect the rights of Londoners.
    Mr. Terry Fields: Does the Prime Minister accept that her justification for carrying out policy on behalf of the Government because it was part of her manifesto should apply equally to local authorities? Does she agree that Liverpool city council, in creating 1,000 jobs, building houses for people in need and reducing rents by £2, is carrying out its democratic policies, or does democracy extend only to Tory party policies?
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, local authorities have precisely those powers that this House agrees to give them and from time to time those powers are changed. Public expenditure must still be found from taxes or rates or by borrowing or printing money. Therefore one must have regard to the total burden on the private sector because, on the whole, the private sector creates the wealth to sustain the public sector.
    Mr. Robert Atkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that concern has been expressed to hon. Members about the use of funds within the south Atlantic fund? While in no sense being critical of the humanity and attention that the administrators of the fund have given to the dispositions that they have made, will she recognise that there is concern, and will she give consideration to seeing how the extra £2 million should be spent?
    The Prime Minister: I will, of course, communicate my hon. Friend's concern. I have noticed a certain amount of concern expressed in the press. The south Atlantic fund is governed by the charity laws, which it must obviously uphold, but I understand that my hon. Friend is asking whether the money yet needs to be transferred to the service charities when there might still be calls upon it. I will, of course, communicate my hon. Friend's concern to the trustees of the south Atlantic fund.
    Mr. Bidwellasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 3 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Bidwell: Has the right hon. Lady had a chance to study the widespread comment on television and in the press on the possibility of peace demonstrators being shot at Greenham common and elsewhere? Did she see the interview with a woman demonstrator who said that British soldiers would not fire but that American defence forces might fire? In those circumstances, will she disown
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    the clumsy remarks of the Secretary of State for Defence two or three days ago? Does she realise that if such events took place there would be the biggest demonstration in our history?
    The Prime Minister: The arrangements for the protection of nuclear installations in this country are precisely the same as they have always been. There is no difference at all. We did not suddenly get this alarm and such questions on previous occasions. I refer the hon. Gentleman to what the press has said about it. The Guardian said:
    "Mr. Heseltine will go to inordinate lengths to prevent the business of cruise deployment leading to bloodshed … The Army and the police in their thousands are not there for fun. They are there precisely to avert such incidents. But can one logically envisage a crowd of demonstrators bouncing all over cruise warheads whilst the Parachute Regiment stands silently by? No. And she"—
    me—
    "is right … that one couldn't expect a Churchill or Attlee or Callaghan Government—or a prospective Kinnock one — to reach any other conclusion."
    Mr. Nicholls: Does my right hon. Friend share my concern about the report in The Times this morning that CND intends to send 10,000 pamphlets to members of the armed forces? Will she condemn in the strongest terms that latest attempt by Pat Arrowsmith and the CND to subvert the forces of the Crown?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend and I surely take the same view — members of Her Majesty's armed forces will know precisely what to do with those leaflets.
    Mr. Norman Atkinson: If we are to assume that the Prime Minister wishes to be considered by the nation as a thoroughly honest person—
    Mr. Adley: She is.
    Mr. Atkinson: —may I ask whether the right hon. Lady this morning remonstrated with the Secretary of State for Employment, who said that unemployment had gone down when he really meant that it was the number of people claiming unemployment benefit that had gone down? Did he not, by issuing figures from his Department, give rise to a myth that the Prime Minister has repeated this afternoon, ignoring the 4·6 million people now looking for work? Rather than employment going down, it is steadily climbing.
    The Prime Minister: The statistics are collected on a basis well known to the hon. Gentleman, and by people who faithfully and with total honesty carry out their jobs. Both the crude figures and the seasonally adjusted figures calculated on that basis are down. The numbers benefiting from special employment measures were fully detailed in the same press notice. The total number in this category is estimated to be 613,000.
    Special employment measures, including the youth training scheme, are for those who cannot get jobs. They will ensure that, in many cases, people are better trained. There is still a shortage in some areas of skilled and trained labour.

Business of the House
Mr. Neil Kinnock: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Biffen): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:—
MONDAY 7 NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill.
Motion on the Sheep Variable Premium (Protection of Payments) (Amendment) Order.
TUESDAY 8 NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Trade Union Bill.
Motion on the European Community Documents 10664/82 and 9369/82 on the protection of workers and the marketing and use of certain dangerous substances and preparations.
WEDNESDAY 9 NOVEMBER—Proceedings on the Oil Taxation Bill.
THURSDAY 10 NOVEMBER — Opposition Day (2nd allotted day) Until about 7 pm a debate on the lack of employment opportunities for young people, and afterwards, a debate on the disastrous impact of Government cuts on community care through the personal social services.
Both debates will arise on motions in the names of the Liberal party and the Social Democratic party.
FRIDAY 11 NOVEMBER—Private Members' Bills. MONDAY 14 NOVEMBER — Second Reading of the Education (Grants and Awards) Bill.
[Debate on 8 November: Marketing and use of asbestos Document No. 9369/82, Protection from asbestos at work Document No. 10664/82; For relevant report of the European Legislation Committee, see HC 34-xvi (1982–83) paras. 1 and 2.]
Mr. Kinnock: The Leader of the House is obviously aware that the Trade Union Bill will be strongly resisted because it imposes further restrictions on trade union political funds, among many other objectionable proposals. When can the House expect a Bill to restrict the political funding activities of companies?
Will the right hon. Gentleman accept the opinion of a number of hon. Members in different parts of the House, that it would be appropriate to set up a Select Committee on Procedure to examine some of the ways in which we undertake our business? Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for an early debate, in Government time, on the second report of the social security advisory committee, which is critical of the Government's attitude towards the long-term unemployed, who are growing in number? The matter becomes more urgent following the announcement of today's unemployment figures.
There are still a number of questions about the sale of Times Newspapers to Mr. Rupert Murdoch which, as yet, remain unanswered. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry makes an early statement to the House giving all the information on that sale, in which the House is interested?
Mr. Biffen: I shall take the right hon. Gentleman's last point first. A reply has already been given to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris) about the treatment of the Sunday Times accounts for the purposes of the Fair Trading Act. Another answer is being
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given today dealing with the question of whether there was a comparison with The Observer. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that, as in the case of the Sunday Times, the non-newspaper business of The Observer was also excluded. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reflect upon those answers. We can then consider the matter through the usual channels.
I note the right hon. Gentleman's request for a debate on the report of the social security advisory committee, which will be considered.
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's comments about the desirability of a Select Committee on Procedure. The best method is to explore that through the usual channels with a view to establishing it as soon as is reasonably possible.
On the Trade Union Bill, I accept at once that it is a matter of some controversiality. I have no doubt that as it proceeds through the House —I hope at a reasonable pace — the matter of funding, including funding by companies, of political activities will command the attention of the House.
Mr. Kinnock: I am sure that we shall wish to reflect on the answers, including today's answer, about Times Newspapers. Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House a clearer idea of what he meant by further considering the matter when we feel that our reflections have gone on for long enough?
Mr. Biffen: If the right hon. Gentleman is not satisfied that the matter is being dealt with fairly, it must be pursued through the usual channels.
Mr. David Steel: As the Leader of the House has admitted that he did not take certain factors into account when the Times decision was made, is not the House entitled to another debate? Will he ensure that he is not too partial on the question? We might even wish to participate in the debate.
Mr. Biffen: I resent any implication of partiality. Throughout the determination of the Bill in 1981 I acted with total propriety and was guided throughout by professional advisors.
Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The House knows that an important debate on foreign affairs will follow business questions. I propose to cut off business questions at 3.50 pm.
Sir Kenneth Lewis: Is my right hon. Friend aware that progress is painful in Committee on the Telecommunications Bill? The matter was discussed at great length in Committee during the last Parliament, but the Bill had to be guillotined so only certain clauses were discussed. Can we vary the procedure this time so that we discuss the clauses from back to front? If we deal with the last clauses first and work towards the middle, we might, over the two Parliaments, discuss every clause in the Bill. Would that not be to the great advantage of the public?
Mr. Biffen: That point is for consideration by the Committee, rather than by me.
Mr. James Molyneaux: When will the importation of milk regulations for Northern Ireland be available in the Vote Office? Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that those for Northern

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Ireland will be debated together with the corresponding regulations for England and Wales and Scotland that were made on 26 October?
Mr. Biffen: I have had correspondence with the right hon. Gentleman on this point. I shall look at the specific matter that he raises and see what can be done to assist him.
Mr. Robert McCrindle: Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the legislation that was referred to by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services on 14 September relating to the protection of pension rights of those who change jobs will be introduced in this Session?
Mr. Biffen: I am not sure whether I can give that undertaking, but I shall consider the point and write to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Mark Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that a debate on the importation of UHT milk in respect of both the Northern Ireland, England and Wales and Scotland regulations must take place before they become effective and that a delay would be unacceptable?
Mr. Biffen: I take note of what the hon. Gentleman says.
Mr. Tony Marlow: Following the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stamford and Spalding (Sir K. Lewis), will my right hon. Friend please visit the Telecommunications Bill Committee? If he does, he will see that the hon. Members for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding) and for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) in particular are doing everything that they can to abuse the procedures of the House, to waste the Committee's time and to prevent serious discussion on this vital measure.
Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk: He is not allowed to say that.
Mr. Speaker: For the benefit of the House, we should not refer in this Chamber to proceedings in Committee.
Mrs. Renée Short: Before the Government embark on yet another reorganisation of the management of the National Health Service, may the House have an opportunity to express a view on the committee's proposals?
Mr. Biffen: We have only just concluded a vigorous debate on the Health Service, at which time the Griffiths proposals were known to the House. Therefore, I regret that I cannot guarantee Government time for such a debate.
Mr. James Callaghan: Reverting to the acquisition of Times Newspapers Ltd. by Mr. Murdoch, when the right hon. Gentleman is considering a debate will he take into account the fact that, while he may resent attacks on his integrity, his judgment on the matter was, is, and remains very much in question?
Mr. Biffen: I accept that that reference was a matter of great political contention and that I have never resented; it is part and parcel of being in politics. However, an attack upon integrity is a different consideration.
Mr. Peter Bottomley: As one who spoke and voted against my right hon. Friend in the debate on the takeover of The Times and the Sunday Times, I do not think that we should have a debate on the issue, mainly because when I rang Mr. Harold Evans at the time to ask for information about the Sunday Times he failed to give it to me. It is not the function of the House to help Mr. Evans to sell his book and to allow him to choose his timing on releasing what he believes to be relevant information years late.
Mr. Biffen: I note what my hon. Friend says.
Mr. Eddie Loyden: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a statement made by the Secretary of State for the Environment that he will send Commissioners into Liverpool city council? Is not that a blatant interference in the democratic rights of elected councillors? Will he press his right hon. Friend to put before the House the third environmental report on Liverpool which outlines the serious problems that that part of the world has to face?
Mr. Biffen: I shall refer the hon. Gentleman's point to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Robert N. Wareing: Bearing in mind the damage that the Government's proposals to wreck local democracy are causing among local government staff, is it not high time that the House had a real opportunity to discuss the disgraceful White Paper that was released during the recess and on which hon. Members have had no opportunity to have a real discussion at a time when local authorities are being refused real and proper consultation?
Mr. Biffen: I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman, not least because of the language in which he put his proposition. It implied premises that I do not accept. There will be opportunities to discuss the rate support grant. when many of those issues will be germane.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: Will the Leader of the House arrange for a debate on coal to take place as soon as possible, in view of the recent statement by MacGregor that he wants to close down all the Welsh and Scottish coalfields in line with a document from the EC only a few months ago? Such a debate will enable some hon. Members to discuss and put into proper perspective the lunatic idea that has been put forward, according to the newspapers, by the Treasury Minister, to privatise parts of the coal industry. That will show that privatisation never worked in the past. It brought the coal industry to ruins and it will do the same again.
Mr. Biffen: The hon. Gentleman has made a robust speech and will have a chance to do so again if he is lucky enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, on the Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill which will shortly he before the House.
Mr. Allan Rogers: Is the Leader of the House aware of the statement that was made earlier today by the Home Office that it has no intention of building public shelters for people in the event of a nuclear attack? Will he make a statement to the House as to who will be allowed into the Prime Minister's private ark while the rest of the population are sacrificed on the altar of her nuclear toys?
Mr. Biffen: The responsibility for making any such statement lies with the Home Office; I shall pass the hon. Gentleman's comments on to the Home Secretary.
Mr. Kilroy-Silk: May I support the demands that have been made today for a debate on the Sunday Times affair, not just because of the serious nature of the allegations that have been made but also because it is not sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman to do as he has today and say that, because he ignored relevant factors when considering TheObserver case and because the same factors were ignored in the acquisition of The Times, that makes his judgment and action correct? It does not. It is still perfectly possible not only for his judgment to be at fault but for him to have acted illegally.
Mr. Biffen: The hon. Gentleman is alleging to be relevant what was judged by professional advisers of the Board of Trade not to be relevant. Therefore, I cannot accept his argument.
Mr. Laurie Pavitt: May I press the Leader of the House on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short)? Last Thursday we discussed the Health Service cuts but we have not yet discussed the Griffiths report. This is the third massive reorganisation, and it will rend the NHS from top to bottom. Before its implementation, which will result in another shakeup, hon. Members should have the right to discuss it.
Mr. Biffen: Despite the charming way in which the hon. Gentleman always makes his requests, I cannot be any more forthcoming to him than I was to his hon. Friend. However, I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services to the point that he has made.
Mr. Cyril D. Townsend: Has my right hon. Friend had his attention drawn in suitably ringing tones to the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of the House of Commons answering service? Is he aware that it is upsetting many constituents and that urgent action is required?
Mr. Biffen: Yes, the matter is before the Sub-Committee, and I shall contact my hon. Friend in due course.
Mr. David Alton: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 193 and its amendment on the crisis on Merseyside?
[That this House congratulates the Labour controlled Liverpool City Council in taking the initiative to create 1,000 jobs and to carry out a public sector housing renewal programme to alleviate the twin problems of mass unemployment and the serious shortage of public sector housing for rent; condemns the Government cuts in the rate support grant which has created major problems for cities such as Liverpool and other cities throughout the United Kingdom; further condemns the inaction of the Government to deal with the unending number of closures
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and redundancies on Merseyside and, in particular, the recent decisions affecting United Biscuits, Cadbury Schweppes, Central Oils, Huntley & Palmers and major High Street stores, such as Woolworths & Binns with a threatened loss of 7,000 to 8,000 jobs; and supports the decision taken by the Liverpool Labour controlled district council and supported by the Liverpool Trades Council, the Merseyside Association of Trades Council, and the Liverpool District Labour Party to organise a rally and demonstration on 19th November against mass unemployment, attacks upon the Health Service, the abolition of the metropolitan counties and the savage cuts in the living standards of working people.]
May we have an early debate on the questions raised both in the motion and in the amendment, particularly as earlier this afternoon it was suggested that 1,000 new jobs had been created. However, in the private sector a further 1,000 jobs have been lost as a result of the withdrawal of grants from private companies and a further 1,000 jobs——
Mr. Speaker: Order, That sounds rather like a speech to me.
Mr. Biffen: I regret that I can offer no early prospect of such a debate in Government time.
Mr. Robin Corbett: Will the Leader of the House accept that it is no proper way to deal with serious allegations by the distinguished former editor of the Sunday Times and The Times by the backdoor method of written parliamentary questions? Will he accept that in everyone's interest, including his own, the proper way in which to deal with this affair is by a debate on the Floor of the House?
Mr. Biffen: I cannot be more helpful than to repeat what I said in reply to the question put by the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Tony Banks: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a firm assurance that the House will be able to discuss the proposals in the White Paper on the streamlining of cities well in advance of the date for the receipt of considerations by local authorities, which is 31 January?
Mr. Biffen: I take note of the hon. Gentleman's argument. I shall draw it to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.
Mr. Jonathan Aitken: Before we go any further with the matter of a debate on Times Newspapers Ltd., will my right hon. Friend accept from someone who disagreed with him when he made his decision, that there is no substance in the charge that he misled the House of Commons or behaved in any way other than with his usual scrupulous fairness towards the House?
Mr. Biffen: Again, I shall confine myself to saying that I note what my hon. Friend says.

BILLS PRESENTED
  COAL INDUSTRY
  Mr. Secretary Walker, supported by Mr. Secretary Younger, Mr. Secretary Edwards, Mr. Peter Rees, Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith and Mr. Giles Shaw presented a Bill to increase the limit on the borrowing powers of the National Coal Board; and to make further provision with respect to grants and payments by the Secretary of State in connection with the coal industry; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 48.]
  RESTRICTIVE TRADE PRACTICES (STOCK EXCHANGE)
  Mr. Secretary Tebbit, supported by Mr. Secretary Prior, Mr. Secretary Younger, Mr. Secretary Edwards, Mr. Peter Rees and Mr. Alexander Fletcher presented a Bill to exempt certain agreements relating to the Stock Exchange from the Restrictive Trade Practices Act 1976; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 50.]

  Foreign Affairs
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
  Mr. Speaker: Before we start this important foreign affairs debate, I should like to tell the House that many right hon. Members wish to take part. I make a special appeal for short contributions today.
  3.50 pm
  The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe): Before turning to wider issues, I shall start by bringing the House up to date on events in Grenada.
  The United States Secretary for Defence has announced that hostilities ended on 2 November and that 3,000 United States troops will have left Grenada by the weekend. Pockets of resistance may, however, linger on for some time, especially in the interior of the island. Her Majesty's Government regret the loss of life that occurred at the mental hospital near Fort Frederick and sympathise with the families of those who lost their lives. Overall, however, the death toll has been relatively low, a fact for which everyone in the House can be thankful.
  A British consular team has been in Grenada since last weekend. It has established the whereabouts of British nationals and has checked on their welfare. Over 100 British nationals have already left the island. I am delighted to confirm that we have received no reports of any British casualties.
  The fact that the Governor-General is safe and well and firmly back in the saddle is something that the whole House will welcome. Let me emphasise one thing about which there has been some misunderstanding. The Governor-General is not in any sense a representative of the British Government. He is the representative of the Queen as the head of state of Grenada.
  Powers delegated to the Governor-General in that capacity give him authority to take certain actions in the present vacuum. In the exercise of these powers he has announced that he will be calling together a group of responsible Grenadian citizens as an advisory council, to assist him in governing the country until it can be restored to normal democratic conditions. He is taking steps to assemble a small team of experienced officials to assist him in securing the resumption of civilian administration in the island.
  We shall be glad to give all possible help in that process, either by ourselves or in conjunction with others, especially our partners in the Commonwealth. Mr. Rushford, a former Foreign Office legal adviser who drafted the constitution of Grenada, and Mr. Braithwaite, of the Commonwealth Secretariat, have already arrived in Grenada.
  The interim administration in the island will face major tasks. It must organise free and fair elections in conditions of peace, and must put in hand the reconstruction of the island and its economy.
  The organisation of elections may take some months. For them to be free and fair and above reproach they must be properly organised and properly supervised. Here again, we shall be glad to do all we can to help. As the House will be aware, that is something where we and other members of the Commonwealth have a great deal of relevant experience.

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  If Grenada is to return to normal democratic life, it will be essential for conditions of peace and security to be restored to the island. Commonwealth assistance with an interim security force and with policing on the island have both been suggested. I have seen the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth twice in the past few days and he is now pursuing his discussions in New York. We are in close touch with Commonwealth missions there, and of course with the Governor-General in Grenada. The two functions are, of course, closely related. It will be important for any such security force to have a properly constituted structure of command, clear objectives and a time frame within which its mission must be accomplished. If it is to operate effectively it will also, of course, need the active support of the interim administration of Grenada and of other states of the Caribbean. Let me make it plain that we shall want to respond positively to requests for help in this field.
  Reconstruction and economic development are a further essential ingredient in the return to normal conditions. We have already made clear to the Governor-General our willingness to help in that task. He has welcomed our offer to send a high level team of advisers, including aid experts and the regional police adviser, to assess the position and make proposals. They should arrive in Grenada tomorrow. Sir Paul Scoon has also welcomed our decision to resume forthwith our bilateral aid relationship with Grenada, which will involve capital assistance as well as technical co-operation.
  In discussing Grenada, I have deliberately been looking to the future as I am sure that that is what the House would wish, but let me dispose of certain lines of argument that have been pursued over the past week.
  Some hon. Members have argued that we should have condemned the intervention outright and voted against it at the United Nations. Other hon. Members have argued exactly the opposite. The position, quite simply, is this: we took the view that our participation in military intervention was not justified. We hold to that view, but we are not prepared to condemn, nor shall we condemn, the United States and the Organisation of Eastern Caribbean States for the action that they took. To have voted for any of the resolutions that have been before the Security Council and the General Assembly would have meant calling for an immediate withdrawal of United States and OECS troops.
  Is that the result that hon. Members want who have urged me in that direction? Do they want guerrilla fighters from Cuba and the people's revolutionary army to remain free to create anarchy and bloodshed? Do they want to destroy the second chance for democracy that is now opened up to the people of Grenada? If that is what the Labour party wants, it should have the courage to say so in so many words. I must say that it is a grossly irresponsible policy, which Her Majesty's Government utterly reject.
  Even more irresponsible is the way in which some Opposition Members have linked or sought to link the Grenada crisis with fundamental questions of western security in an orgy of anti-Americanism. They seem to take pleasure in criticising our most important ally, the support of which for western Europe is underlined by the presence on this side of the Atlantic of 300,000 troops and their dependants.
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  The leader of the Labour party said not long ago that the United States and the Soviet Union presented an almost equal threat to the security of Britain. On the basis of such a belief, the destructive rhetoric that we have heard might just be explicable. Even so, I do not understand those who warn us against megaphone diplomacy in relation to the Soviet Union while urging it upon us in our dealings with our allies.
  The flames of anti-Americanism on the Opposition Benches have been fanned with notable enthusiasm——
  Mr. Neil Kinnock: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman is going to quote me to try to improve his speeches, he had better quote me accurately. I said that there is almost an equity of menace to world stability, not an equality of threat to the security of Britain.
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: What the right hon. Gentleman has just said serves only to clarify the falsity of his view. To regard that as an equity of menace is a wholly unfounded premise.
  The flames of anti-Americanism have been fanned with enthusiasm by the one person in the Opposition whose major positions of responsibility in past Governments should have to taught him better. I refer of course to the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), the Labour spokesman on foreign affairs. We have witnessed the performance of a man who knows that his party will be in opposition for many years and that he will not have to account for his irresponsibility. It may have served to gain him a place in the shadow Cabinet, but at what a price.
  As to the argument put forward by some of my hon. Friends, that we should have joined in the action taken by the United States, I should like to say this. Certainly we share the same objectives. We all want to see democracy and the rule of law prosper in Grenada and in the Caribbean more generally, just as we did in the south Atlantic, when we took the action that we did in the Falklands. That same rule of law informed the decision that we were called upon to take over intervention in Grenada. The case was less clear cut, of course, as General Austin and his friends had clearly shown their contempt for the values that we uphold.
  We gave, as we should, full weight to the British interests at stake as well as the risks to British citizens on Grenada, and we concluded that British military intervention would not have been jusified. Other countries, including some Commonwealth countries in the Caribbean, reached the same conclusion.
  The whole House must realise increasingly how difficult it is in an imperfect world to deal effectively with the likely consequences of a bloody coup such as the one in Grenada. It is important that we should recognise that these events have highlighted a particular problem affecting small independent nations. As my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Sir P. Goodhart) put it to me, they can be highjacked almost as easily as an airliner. They are peculiarly vulnerable to small bands of determined people who want power and are prepared to do anything to get it. The question whether more could be done to provide security to small nations is one to which further thought should properly be given. I intend to follow this up with our friends in the Commonwealth and elsewhere.
  Mr. Sydney Bidwell: During the three years in which the Bishop Government were in

  1011
  power, progressive steps were taken to improve the economy of Grenada. Will the co-operatives, fish farms and the rest be safeguarded? Will the Foreign Secretary give an assurance that he will take a special interest in the economic progress and the attack on unemployment that was made in Grenada at that time?
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: The purpose of the early mission by our aid advisers is to enable us to take a view as to what can and should be preserved by economic assistance as soon as possible. If the hon. Member is right in what he has said, all the greater is the tragedy of the ruthless execution of Mr. Bishop by the murderous gang.
  Some people see last week's events in the Caribbean as reflecting the continuing tension between East and West. The facts which have emerged about the extent and nature of the Cuban presence on Grenada are certainly relevant, but it is important to be clear, in each such case, just how much weight to place on what is often a more complex picture. It is important to keep a clear head about the fundamentals of the relationship between East and West.
  Our first priority is and must be the security of our nation. The Russians certainly take the same view about theirs. But we have to take account, too, of the brute fact that they appear in practice to see their security as requiring the invasion of Afghanistan, the suppression of Solidarity in Poland, the shooting down of 269 innocent civilians and an arms build-up going far beyond the realistic needs of defence. So long as that is the case, the Soviet Union should not he surprised if the world outside its borders feels threatened by those very same actions and takes measures to ensure that its essential security interests are defended.
  That is why the present Government, indeed the Alliance as a whole, remain determined to maintain the armed forces necessary to our security. We remain equally determined to work for balance and effective measures of disarmament. We proved once again last week our desire not to retain more nuclear weapons that are strictly necessary for deterrence when NATO defence Ministers announced a reduction of 2,000 nuclear warheads in Europe, in addition to the 1,000 removed by the United States in 1980.
  We want to make headway in developing a more normal relationship between East and West over a broader front. Of course the obstacles are all too clear. We have to accept that change in the Soviet Union will be a long-term process and that western influence will probably be slight. Change in eastern Europe will also be slow, but that is no reason to confine our efforts only to maintaining adequate defences.
  We must be prepared, and we are ready, to put our views directly to the Russians and to do so at all levels. Contacts between East and West are not an end in themselves. Nor should they be. They are a means to an end. Our aim is to convey our views to the Russians without unnecessary asperity, but without ambiguity. And we are very ready to listen to what they want to tell us. That was the spirit in which, two months ago, I saw Mr. Gromyko in Madrid and, more recently, Mr. Kostandov, the Soviet Deputy Prime Minister, in London. We are now looking for a similar response from the Soviet Union.
  This is above all necessary in the negotiations on intermediate nuclear forces in Geneva. The House must face the probability that agreement will not be reached in Geneva before the end of the year. The Russians, with a
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  mixture of threats and apparent inducements, have tried their best to divert public opinion in the West. But they have not made an effort where it really matters—at the negotiating table. Nothing that they have said so far changes their fundamental position. They are still demanding that they should, but that the United States should not, be allowed medium-range missiles in Europe. That is unacceptable to us and to the Alliance as a whole.
  That is why, barring some quite unexpected change in the Soviet position, it will be necessary for NATO to begin to deploy its own INF missiles by the end of this year. We hoped that this could have been avoided — we have worked hard to avoid it—but Soviet intransigence has left us with no choice.
  Deployment will not in any way affect our resolve to pursue an arms control agreement after that time. If it proves necessary to implement the full deployment programme, this will take place over five years. But deployment can be and will be halted or reversed whenever progress in Geneva so warrants. I remain determined, the Government remain determined, indeed the West remains determined, to work for such an outcome.
  The Soviet leaders, for their part, must make their position clear. Are they interested in balanced disarmament, or have they stayed at Geneva, as all too many people fear, merely in the hope of maintaining unilateral advantage?
  We are greatly concerned also to see early progress in the other negotiations in progress in Geneva — the START talks on rductions of strategic nuclear weapons.
  The INF and the START talks are of course bilateral negotiations between the United States and the Soviet Union. We in Britain are, however, very closely involved with our allies in the formulation of policy, particularly in INF, because it is of such vital importance to the Alliance as a whole.
  As for our own strategic systems, there can be no question of agreeing to the inclusion of those weapons in the INF negotiations in Geneva. Those talks are specifically not about strategic weapons. They do not include the strategic weapons of the United States or the Soviet Union and there is no logical reason why they should include ours. As far as strategic arms control is concerned, we must remember that our force represents less than 3 per cent. of the strategic nuclear forces available to the United States or to the Soviet Union. It would make no sense as things stand for us to seek to trade reductions with the Russians.
  But we have never said never. We have made it clear that if Soviet and United States strategic arsenals were to be very substantially reduced and if no significant changes had occurred in Soviet defensive capabilities, Britain would want to review her position and to consider how best we could contribute to arms control in the light of that reduced threat.
  These are fundamental issues between East and West. They are crucial also to the prospects for peace in the world. But not all conflict in the world can or should be seen as a by-product of conflict between East and West.
  Mr. Nigel Forman: I very much welcome the positive statement of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary about the Government's commitment to multilateral arms control

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  and disarmament. Can he say what progress is being made on the comprehensive test ban treaty in which the Government should be involved?
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: I am not prepared to enlarge on that matter, as my speech is already quite long enough.
  Mr. Dennis Skinner: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will have to think on his feet.
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: I wish to refer to the long-drawn-out war in the Gulf. Numerous mediators have tried to end the bloody and pointless conflict between Iran and Iraq. So far, regrettably, they have all failed. The whole world would like to see a speedy settlement on terms acceptable to both sides. We shall continue to support any initiatives which offer a realistic chance of bringing that about.
  Just as urgent is the need for a settlement of the wider Arab-Israel dispute. Time is not on the side of peace in that region. But the fact remains that there is no alternative to a negotiated settlement. The difficulties are formidable, but the principles spelt out in the Venice declaration and the commitment to a peaceful solution at the Arab summit at Fez provide the right landmarks and President Reagan's plan remains the best route map available. We are doing all in our power to encourage the parties to return to that road.
  The urgent need is for a firm commitment by all the parties to the principles on which negotiated agreement could be based. That was the message which my right hon. Friend took with her to Washington when she had talks with President Reagan a month ago, and that is the message which is being carried by my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce), who has just visited Israel and the West Bank and is today in Jordan. But no country outside that region can produce peace. Only the parties themselves can make that peace.
  So it is with the Lebanon. The multinational force is there to give support to the Lebanese Government and armed forces in the Beirut area. The British contingent is there to help in that task. It is a delicate and dangerous mission. Our troops are carrying it out with distinction and courage. They have won the trust of all sides; and trust is a precious commodity in Lebanon.
  I know the whole House shares my feelings of revulsion for the recent horrendous attack on the American and French contingents. Both countries have, of course, weighed their position very carefully in the light of their tragic losses. They have made clear their determination that those unspeakable acts will not weaken their resolve to continue that mission. I discussed the position of the multinational force with the foreign ministers of the United States, France and Italy in Paris last Thursday. The force is a symbol of our commitment to help create the circumstances in which the Lebanese Government can pursue political reconciliation and restore stability. It should not, and it will not, stay a day longer than is necessary and justified by what is happening on the ground. But there can be no question of pulling it out at this stage.
  The ceasefire which came into effect on 26 September was an important step forward, but it will not last in a political vacuum. It is therefore now more important than ever, and more urgent than ever, that the Lebanese should grasp this opportunity to reach an agreement which will
  1014
  help them to live together in peace. Outsiders can help create the right environment for these vital negotiations. The withdrawal of Israeli and Syrian forces remains a very important, and very difficult, objective, but it is for the Lebanese leaders themselves to make the painful concessions which will be needed from all sides in Lebanon if a lasting bargain is to be struck. That is the purpose of the talks which began in Geneva on Monday. It is now for the Lebanese to show that they want independence. We have made it absolutely clear to them that we are not prepared to wait indefinitely for the steps necessary to make it a reality.
  It is not possible in a speech of this kind to deal with all the questions of foreign policy to which the House— and I myself—attach importance. Nor is it possible to weave the answers to all the questions into some seamless web of principle. The primary point perhaps is that as Foreign Secretary it is my duty, which I seek to discharge, to uphold the interests of this country and its people.
  Against that background, I should like very briefly to say a word about Hong Kong, about which there is, quite properly, deep interest in the House. As my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham explained in the short debate on Monday night, the most recent session of talks about Hong Kong took place on 19–20 October. That session was described by both sides as useful and constructive. We are right to take encouragement from this.
  The next round of talks will be on 14–15 November. Our objective remains clear. We are seeking a settlement which will secure stability and prosperity for Hong Kong, and in a way acceptable to China and to the people of Hong Kong and to this Parliament.
  I can well understand the feelings of uncertainty among people in Hong Kong, but there are solid reasons for them to face the future with confidence. Their economy has great underlying strength. The Hong Kong Government have acted decisively to stabilise the Hong Kong dollar.
  I was able to discuss these questions with the Chinese Foreign Minister in New York just over a month ago. It was quite clear that we are approaching these talks with an agreed common purpose. There is still much ground —and much difficult ground—to be covered, but I have no doubt that there is a common will to bring the talks to a successful conclusion. However, it is necessary and right that these talks should be conducted in an atmosphere of complete confidentiality. I hope the House will bear with that, knowing that this is an essential element in eventual success.
  We shall continue to consult closely with Hong Kong. Unofficial members of the Governor's executive council came for the second time to London early last month, and met my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and myself. We shared a complete understanding on the issues involved. That is the basis on which we intend to proceed.
  Sir Paul Bryan (Boothferry): Would it not be as well to point out at this juncture how prosperous Hong Kong is in manufacturing? It is doing extremely well.
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: That is one of the many aspects of Hong Kong's prosperity and one of the reasons why I say that there can be confidence on the basis on which to carry through the negotiations.
  Mr. John Browne: I support entirely my right hon. and learned Friend's wishes and the reasons for having the negotiations carried out under the strictest

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  confidentiality, as I believe it stops fluctuations in the market for one thing. Would he be prepared to say whether or not within that confidentiality there would be any willingness on behalf of Her Majesty's Government to take equity in things like the proposed new nuclear power station?
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: That is a separate question. We are certainly interested in the prospects for a prosperous partnership between British manufacturing firms and the proposed nuclear power station at Guandong. We are prepared to consider any arrangement that would make sense to the Chinese Government and ourselves to achieve that.
  Finally, I turn to the European Community. It is now certain that the future of this country lies in the Community. That was made absolutely clear by the people in the election in June. Our continuing task in the Community is to make a full success of our membership. Since the beginning of July I have spent many days in negotiation with our Common Market partners and can report to the House that throughout the Community there is greater recognition that there is a real budgetary problem for the Community as a whole to be resolved and beyond that a greater willingness to negotiate to resolve that problem. [Laughter.] Opposition Members may laugh, but the recognition by all the countries of the Community of the existence of this problem is a major step forward.
  When Labour were thrown out of government in 1979 the budget problem was dismissed throughout Europe with the words, "What Budget problem?" I can confirm that to the House. At that time, in 1979, in day after day of negotiations, we were seeking to persuade our partners in the Community that a problem existed. If one conducts negotiations now, they start from the premise that there is a problem which goes beyond the interests of this country. It is recognised that the budget problem of the Community has to be solved if the Community is to grow successfully, as we all wish and as Britain's economic and political interests demand. Failure in the forthcoming negotiations would be a serious setback.
  Spending within the community has become distorted, primarily because 65 per cent. of the budget is devoted to the common agricultural policy. spending has also risen faster than resources. I have made it clear that we would be prepared to consider an increase in the Community's own resources provided that—I stress this—two very important conditions are met. First, agreement must be reached on an effective control of the rate of increase of agricultural and other expenditure. Secondly, this must be accompanied by an arrangement to ensure a fair sharing of the financial burden, so that no country has to pay a share disproportionate to its relative national wealth. Only in those circumstances, as the Prime Minister and I have made clear, could we consider an increase in the 1 per cent. VAT limit.
  Mr. Tony Marlow: Would my right hon. and learned Friend go a bit further? Since at any one time the public expenditure cake in Europe is finite, if Europe is to spend more money, that means that Europe will be controlling more policies and we will be controlling fewer policies and spending less money. That would be a surrender of sovereignty by the House. If Europe is to have more money, we in this country will be seeking new schemes of public expenditure so that we can
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  get our share of that money. Since hon. Members on this side of the House do not wish to go for more schemes of public expenditure and since also many people on both sides of the House would resist an increase in the resources, will my right hoe. and learned Friend go further and say that in no circumstances will this country agree to an increase in Community resources?
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: The purpose of what I have just been saying is precisely the opposite to what my hon. Friend has invited me to say. I have set out clearly the conditions under which we would be prepared to consider an increase in those resources.
  Our specific proposals on the budget concentrate on correcting inequitable burdens by setting firm limits, based on relative prosperity and gross domestic product, to the net budgetary burden that any member should be expected to bear. That is the British proposal for a safety net. If we contributed more than our due one year, our contribution the following year would simply be reduced by the amount due under the safety net arrangement.
  The second crucial point is reform of the CAP. Agriculture is the largest industry in our economy. Our self-sufficiency in food products is growing. I greatly welcome that. However, the price that we have had to pay for that success has been too high—above all the cost to the taxpayer of subsidised surpluses which cannot be disposed of inside the Community or sensibly outside.
  We have therefore proposed the introduction of a strict financial guideline which must be embodied in the Community's budgetary procedures. This will ensure that the rate of growth of CAP expenditure is kept markedly lower than the rate of growth of the Community's resources. That will not freeze agricultural spending or exclude flexibility to deal with unforeseen crises, but it will ensure that CAP spending is kept within strictly confined limits and it will back up the measures which are necessary to bring about a better market balance for agricultural commodities.
  This will be a difficult element in the negotiations that will continue at the Athens summit in December. The concept I have outlined is in tune with the Commission's intentions. It represents one aspect of the changing mood in Europe and it is in line with the intentions of most other member states. The Dutch, for example, are thinking along much the same lines as us, and I have never heard them criticised for lack of Community spirit or attachment to the CAP. Reiteration of good intentions is not enough. The fundamental requirement is that we must now achieve arrangements which guarantee results.
  I am also looking forward to the development of new policies. At Stuttgart we made proposals concerning transport and energy policy, the environment, innovation and advanced technology. All are areas in which the Community should now take specific action. Such action could be taken without incurring additional expenditure and it would greatly benefit the Community.
  Many more hard days and nights of negotiation lie ahead before those objectives are achieved, but the mood among our Community partners on the need for change is much more evident. Our chipping away at the logjam is yielding results and we are much more likely to achieve success because, unlike the divided Labour party, there is no doubt whatsoever about the Government's commitment to Europe.
  Mr. Julian Amery: I understand that this is our last debate on foreign affairs before the Commonwealth conference. My right hon. and learned Friend will be aware of the deep anxiety of many hon. Members about the detention of Bishop Muzorewa. Britain might have no legal responsibility for the bishop but we have a strong moral responsibility for him as he implemented the six principles and put almost blind trust in the Government during the Lancaster House conference. Will my right hon. and learned Friend undertake to raise, or get the Prime Minister to raise, the case of Bishop Muzorewa and that of the air force officers who are still under detention when they meet Mr. Mugabe at the forthcoming Commonwealth conference?
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I will consider those points. My right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) no doubt understands the limitations of our formal responsibility, but I shall certainly bear in mind the points that he has made.
  My final point follows from the observations that I have just made. Britain is no longer an imperial power, but we remain deeply respected. That respect is based on our tradition of law and fair dealing and on our readiness to take difficult decisions in britain's interests and stand by them.
  In Europe, in disarmament negotiations, in the middle east or in Grenada the answers are not to be found in the glib one-line propositions that we hear from the Opposition. They say that we should withdraw from Europe—what nonsense — abandon nuclear defence— what nonsense—pull out of Lebanon and condemn the United States. Stop the world—Labour wants to get off. That is a grotesque way for a major political party to tackle world problems. The Labour party is long on insults, short on solutions. We do not believe in trading insults with our friends. We build bridges, not demolish them. That is in the interests of Britain, of the Commonwealth, of Europe and the Atlantic Alliance. That is the policy which the Government will continue to pursue.
  4.24 pm
  Mr. Denis Healey: The Secretary of State has covered many issues. I shall take up many of the points that he made. I can say on behalf of many right hon. and hon. Members that as the Foreign Secretary has shown such a lack of knowledge and judgment when dealing with the problems of an independent Commonwealth country of which Britain has long experience, it is difficult to have much confidence in his knowledge or judgment on the issues that he discussed today.
  It is only a few months since the House last discussed foreign affairs in their broader context. We must agree, however, that in all respects the world is now an even more dangerous place than it was in the summer. An effective dialogue between Western powers and the Soviet Union has now almost come to a halt. There are growing strains between the United States and its European allies in every aspect of policy—even in defence which is the core of our relationship. Armed conflict is growing worse in the middle east, the horn of Africa and in central America. The background to that deterioration in the political scene is the world economy, which is threatend by a debt crisis which worsens every week. The Philippines, Hong Kong, Israel and South Korea are all new entrants to the list of
  1018
  countries that suffer from the debt crisis. Moreover, there is a risk of a trade war between the European Community and the United States.
  In such gloomy circumstances the House and Government must concentrate primarily on the issues of direct concern to the United Kingdom or on issues on which the British Government can hope to exert an important influence for the good. I shall deal first with the deepening conflict between Washington and Moscow and then consider some of its implications in the Caribbean, central and Latin America and in the middle east. I shall not discuss Hong Kong as it will be dealt with in the Opposition's winding-up speech. Nor shall I deal with in the Community budget, primarily because my imagination is still reeling from the shock of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's revelation that there is a problem with the Community budget and our partners are aware of it.
  Nor shall I deal in detail with what the Foreign Secretary said about disarmament. However, I wish to make one observation about the central issue of the role of British nuclear forces in the disarmament discussions. The Foreign Secretary knows very well that the Soviet Union has not asked Britain to reduce her nuclear forces. That has not been the issue. We have been asked simply that they should be taken into account in the discussions on intermediate nuclear forces between the Soviet Union and the United States as they represent part of the western European-based threat to the Soviet Union.
  Mr. Churchill: Why is the right hon. Gentleman taking their side?
  Mr. Healey: What I say is accepted by the Soviet and United States Governments. As I pointed out on Monday when we discussed these matters at greater length, Secretary Weinburger included British nuclear forces not in the strategic forces with which he dealt in his statement on fiscal 1984, but in the theatre nuclear forces allocated to supreme allied command Europe. It is illogical for the British Government to refuse to allow the Americans to include them in the threat as they obviously form part of it. Their range is less than that of the Russian SS20s and they were taken account of in early discussions between the United States and the Soviet Union, although that was done tacitly in protocols.
  I start with the problem in Washington and I speak, as the Foreign Secretary conceded, as a man who has spent most of his political life defending the British relationship with the United States against critics, not least those in my party. Since President Reagan won office, Washington has been the theatre of a struggle between pragmatists and ideologues. There is no denying that the ideologues now have the upper hand, but the struggle continues and America's friends and allies, not only in NATO but in Latin America, can influence that struggle, and it is vital that we should seek to do so.
  The ideology, which now has the upper hand and which determined the invasion of Grenada, was described in chilling terms in an interview with Mrs. Jeane Kirkpatrick in a recent issue of Encounter magazine, long extracts of which were published in The Times. It is based on the proposition that the world is exclusively the scene of a cold war between Russia and the United States, in which Russia is winning because America is not taking the cold war sufficiently seriously; that the failure of America and her

  1019
  allies to take the cold war seriously enough is both a sin and a political blunder, because the cold war is a moral crusade of good against evil.
  President Reagan made his views about that clear even before he was elected when he said:
  "The Soviet Union underlies all the unrest that is going on. If they were not engaged in this game of dominoes, there would not be any hot spots in the world".
  He believed that then and he believes it now. A few months ago in Orlando, Florida, he described the Soviet Union as "an evil empire" and
  "the focus of evil in the modern world".
  He went on to say—I know there are ideologues on the Conservative Benches who take the same view:
  "We Americans are enjoined by Scripture and the Lord Jesus Christ to oppose the sin and evil in the world."
  He returned to the same theme in the television address he gave last week, which sought to justify the presence of American marines in Lebanon and the invasion of Grenada. He asked of Lebanon:
  "Can the United States, or the free world for that matter, stand by and see the Middle East incorporated into the Soviet Bloc?"
  I shall deal with some of the implications of that in a moment. He went on to say:
  "We are a nation with global responsibilities. We are not somewhere else in the world protecting someone else's interests. We are there protecting our own."
  He also used those arguments and principles to justify the invasion of Grenada.
  I hope that the Foreign Secretary will assure the House that he still agrees with what he said once or twice last week and with rather more force on Sunday, which was that it is unacceptable for the American President to assert the right of the United States to intervene by military force anywhere in the world where it believes United States interests to be at stake.
  The United States is not the only member of the Western Alliance to have been guilty of unilateral action. The British Government took unilateral action and violated international law at Suez in 1966. I attacked their action then as I attack the American Government's action today. It is also true, as the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) said a few days ago, that President Reagan is not the first American President to have acted unilaterally. Almost exactly 10 years ago in October 1973, without consulting Her Majesty's Government, the United States put all its nuclear forces in the United Kingdom on alert, not for a purpose covered by NATO but to deter the possible dispatch of Soviet troops to Egypt during the Yom Kippur war. Sir James Cable says in a letter to The Times today that Secretary of State Kissinger justified the failure to consult his allies—a failure that is wholly contrary to the understandings that The Prime Minister asked us to accept on cruise—with the words:
  "To be frank, we could not have accepted a judgment different from our own … allies should be consulted wherever possible. But emergencies are sure to arise again; and it will not be in anyone's interest if the chief protector of free world security is hamstrung by bureaucratic procedure."
  Those are Secretary Kissinger's own words and they fully justify the views of those who spoke from both sides of the House during Monday's debate on the installation of cruise missiles in favour of giving the British Government physical control over the firing of those missiles, as we had physical control over the firing of the four missiles which were introduced into Britain in 1958 when Prime Minister Macmillan was head of the Government.
  1020
  Such control is especially important at a time when the American Administration is guided by the ideology which, as I describe in its own words,
  "reserves the right to act anywhere in the world by military force if it feels its interests threatened",
  and to act in areas not covered by the rules of the North Atlantic Alliance, as it did in 1973.
  Mr. Churchill: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that American forces are in Lebanon or in Grenada other than by the invitation of the embodiment of constitutional authority in those countries?
  Mr. Healey: They were invited in by the Government of Lebanon, and I shall return to the implications of that in a moment. That is not so in Grenada, and I shall be dealing with the hon. Gentleman's point in detail shortly.
  The idea that Soviet Communism is the cause of all the trouble in the modern world is just as ridiculous as its mirror image — the view of infantile pseudo-Marxists that all the trouble in the world is caused by capitalism. The world suffered from wars and revolutions for at least 2,000 years before the Spinning Jenny was invented or the Bolsheviks stormed the Winter Palace. To attribute all the complex problems of the world, with their different backgrounds and history, to this comic strip interpretation which President Reagan undoubtedly genuinely believes is profoundly dangerous to world peace; and it is the duty of anyone who cares for world peace or for the Alliance to say so and to keep on saying so until this ridiculous fantasy disappears from the formulation of American policy.
  However, the Prime Minister went out of her way to endorse President Reagan's approach on her previous trip to the United States in a speech which rightly earned her a rebuke from Lord Carrington that she was indulging in megaphone diplomacy. I hope that she recognises now where such opportunistic rhetoric has led her. If, as the Prime Minister then said,
  "Force and dictatorship are the only governing principles of Soviet policy",
  I ask her to ask herself, and I ask the House to ask itself, why the Soviet Union did not attack China in the early 1960s when their relations were at an all-time low, when the Soviet Union had a large arsenal of nuclear weapons and China had none. China also had no friends in the world, because at that time the United States was as hostile to Peking as was the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union attacked Afghanistan because the reaction of Western Governments to the first infringements of Afghanistan's neutrality was so supine that it had installed a Communist Government—those Governments were quite wrong to do so, and we should have protested at the time—and it thought that there would be no reaction. It was wrong. I am glad that there was a reaction and that the reaction from these Benches was as strong as that from the Government Benches.
  Ever since the second world war, the Soviet Union has been cautious about using the Red Army outside the area the Soviet Government believes to be recognised by the West as being within its sphere of influence. I believe that the Alliance between Europe and the United States is fundamental not just to the security of Great Britain but to the peace of the world. To those both on the Right and the Left of British politics who ask Britain to leave the Alliance, I say that there is no chance whatever that, if the Alliance broke up, the United States would revert to the

  1021
  passive neutrality in world affairs that it observed before the second world war. If the Alliance broke up, global unilateralism would be unrestrained.
  The Alliance will not survive, however, unless America's allies join the powerful forces inside the United States itself that are as worried as I am about the new elements in American policy. The views of Mr. George Ball, for example, who served America well in many Administrations as a Minister for foreign affairs, appeared in The Times last week. He spoke as one who believes that if America continues to go it alone in a holy war against Communism, it will be a disaster for the world and a disaster for the United States. The Speaker of the House of Representatives, Mr. Tip O'Neill, who could not be described as soft on Communism, has described the Grenada invasion as gunboat diplomacy and a breach of international law.
  In an interview on Sunday, the Foreign Secretary belatedly made it clear that he shares that view. It is very disappointing that he did not join members of the Commonwealth such as New Zealand and Canada, and members of NATO such as the Netherlands and France, in condemning America's action on this occasion. By seeking to ride two horses, he has fallen between two stools. [Interruption.] The circus metaphor comes easily to mind when one is talking about the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I fear that it is irresistible.
  We must join our friends in Europe and elsewhere— notably in the Commonwealth — in warning the United States Administration against its current approach to foreign policy, particularly in central America and the middle east, which at present are the areas of greatest danger.
  Before I deal with the broad implications for central America of what happened in Grenada, I have some questions for the Foreign Secretary about Grenada itself. The right hon. Gentleman said that the casualties had been lower than might have been expected. I am not sure whether he was referring to casualties among the fighting forces, or civilian casualties. It appears to me, however, and my view is confirmed in the newspapers, that there has been no attempt to collect figures for the civilian casualties. We learnt belatedly that in an attack on a mental hospital—a tragic error—30 people were killed, 70 reported missing and many injured. However, British journalists now on the island state that there were other civilian casualties. I wonder whether the Minister who replies to the debate will tell us whether Her Majesty's Government know how many innocent civilians were victims of the invasion.
  The second question that I put to the Minister was raised a moment ago and concerns the role of the Governor-General. There must still be doubt about the timing and circumstances of the invitation that he issued for intervention, and to whom it was addressed. The Prime Minister of Dominica said that the request for intervention was made on the Friday and Saturday before the invasion. The Governor-General said that he decided to ask for intervention on the Sunday evening and confirmed his request—whatever that means—on Monday, in a letter that was delivered on Wednesday, and which some people believe was drafted by American officials rather than by him.
  1022
  The Governor-General told British journalists — according to the weekend newspapers—that he had not asked for military intervention, or for intervention by the United States. However, in the "Panorama" programme on Monday he told the British television audience that he had invited the United States to intervene. My right hon. and learned Friend Lord Elwyn-Jones, who was the Lord Chancellor in the previous Labour Government, spoke in the other place on Monday. I refer hon. Members to column 516 of Hansard. He said not only that the Organisation of East Caribbean States had no legal right, under the 1981 treaty, to intervene or to ask others to intervene, but that the Governor-General had no right to invite a foreign power to invade his native land without first taking advice from the Queen.
  The Governor-General spoke to the Palace on the Sunday, as the Prime Minister told us when she spoke on Tuesday of last week, and made no mention of his intention or desire to issue such an invitation. He was free to contact the Palace on Monday, because the invasion did not take place until Monday night. However, he did not do so, and gave no sign of an intention to do so. Yet the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, told the other place in a debate on Monday that the authority of the Governor-General derived from the Queen and that he was her representative. There was no legal authority for the intervention that the Governor-General requested, if in fact he requested it. That is one of the disturbing elements in the whole affair.
  I raise these points, because if Sir Paul Scoon does not act as the focus for the restoration of democratic government on Grenada it is difficult to see what can be done. Just then, I nearly said "Barbados", but Barbados was anyway acting on behalf of Grenada last week, was it not? If Sir Paul Scoon wishes to act—as I hope he will — as a focus for the restoration of democratic government in Grenada, it is vital that he should be seen by the world and the people of Grenada as a wholly independent figure, and not as the agent of any foreign Government. It is vital that that should be made clear and that, whatever may have happened in the past, there can be no imputation against Sir Paul Scoon's objectivity or his role as a completely national, independent arbitrator, who is not responsible to any foreign power.
  Sir Philip Goodhart: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Governor-General was in an impossible position, and that if he had publicly asked for the intervention of outside forces while he was in Grenada he would have been murdered by the leaders of the coup? Under those circumstances, how could he give clear instructions?
  Mr. Healey: According to the Prime Minister of Dominica, Sir Paul Scoon asked for intervention on the previous Friday and Saturday. It was open to him to reveal his intention in his telephone conversation with the Palace, and even more so in his conversation on Sunday with the representative of the British high Commissioner in his private apartment on Grenada. He did not do so, and the Prime Minster made this clear last week. Great uncertainty must remain about whether he in fact asked for intervention; if so, when, and whether he took the decision on his own or was persuaded to confirm it while he was on the battleship Guam and when his hosts would not allow him to contact certain people.

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  The House would agree that if Sir Paul Scoon accepts responsibility and free elections are held, all American troops must be out of the island and some impartial body must be present to monitor and to guarantee law and order during the election. I understand that, although American troops have been reduced substantially, there are still 1,500 or 2,000 on the island which, on an island of 100,000 inhabitants, is a pretty substantial number. Therefore, it is important that some impartial body can guarantee law and order from the earliest moment. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman agrees that the Commonwealth seems to be the most suitable and likely body to assume this role. I hope that the Minister when he replies will make it clear that when the Foreign Secretary talked about a positive response he meant that if we are asked to contribute to a Commonwealth force we shall agree. This point was not wholly clear from what the right hon. Gentleman said.
  I turn to the broader implications of the invasion for the central American region as a whole. The right hon. Gentleman must know, because he has ambassadors in all of the capitals concerned, that the invasion was seen by many as a rehearsal for the invasion of Nicaragua or Cuba or for direct American military intervention in El Salvador. The circumstances in each of those three countries could justify intervention, according to the rules that President Reagan announced in his television broadcast the other day.
  The Prime Minister told the world on Sunday during a television interview that she would stick her neck out— a dangerous procedure in some company—and say that America would not invade Nicaragua. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will tell us that she had some information to justify so dangerous and uncharacteristic an action. Has she been informed by the American President that this is not on? I should hope so. I can think of nothing more calculated to send a wave of anti-Americanism sweeping over the West and Europe than a repetition in Nicaragua of the Grenada invasion.
  The United States intervened in Grenada in breach of American commitments under the Organisation of American States charter, the Rio treaty, and the United Nations charter. Its action has been condemned during the past week by every Latin American Government who do not owe their survival to American support. I believe that I am correct in saying that the only Latin American Governments who failed to condemn American action were El Salvador, Guatemala and Chile. The intervention was condemned by every Government in the Ponta Pora group, on which President Reagan says that he now relies to obtain a peaceful settlement in El Salvador. If the United States President were to repeat the Grenadian adventure in any other part of Latin America, he would do a disastrous disservice to his country and to world peace. At the moment, he has assembled more forces in the independent country of Honduras than have taken part in any other American exercise. They will stay there longer than any other exercise has lasted. President Reagan said at the beginning that the exercise would last six months; now, apparently, it could go on indefinitely. We know that the only reason that he is describing their presence as an exercise is that it is a means of evading control by the American Congress under the War Powers Act.
  1024
  I believe that all America's friends should counsel it in its own best interest to take those troops out immediately, since that is the only way in which the United States can make it clear that it does not intend to invade Nicaragua.
  The United Kingdom still has two direct responsibilities in south America—Belize and the Falkland Islands. The House can compare Her Majesty's Government's policies towards these two remaining responsibilities. The Prime Minister has chosen to spend thousands of millions of pounds to build a military base on the Falklands to defend 400 families, which are under no military threat, especially now that Mr. Alfonsin has won the election in Argentina. As the House knows, he was an outspoken opponent of the generals' invasion. He has said many times that he has no intention of pursuing Argentina's claim to the Falklands by military force. He plans to try to reorganise Argentina's forces so that they would not be capable of that type of action.
  At the same time as the Government are pouring money into the Falklands, they are threatening to pull out a small British detachment from Belize to save not thousands of millions of pounds but, I believe, £25 million. Our forces are in Belize to defend a large population against a real threat from a neighbouring military dictatorship.
  I suggest to the Prime Minister that she reverse her policies. She should stop talking about leaving Belize, because what she said about it—this leaked rapidly; she did not leak it herself—was an exact repetition of the blunder she had made that led to the Falklands incident. That statement was the exact equivalent to the decision to withdraw HMS Endurance from the Falkland Islands. She was sending the wrong signal to a military dictator for the second time in the same area. It almost beggars the imagination that the Prime Minister could have acted so foolishly.
  I suggest that some attempt be made while the opportunity is right to get in touch with Mr. Alfonsin and to consider how normal relations with Argentina can most rapidly be restored. Undoubtedly, the most useful first step would be a freeze on additional spending in the Falklands —something which would be welcome to the Chancellor of the Exchequer who is still trying to get £240 million knocked off this year's budget, if we are to believe the Financial Times which has normally been a much more reliable source of information about Her Majesty's Government than Ministers.
  The United Kingdom should seriously consider what can be done to persuade Argentina and other countries in the area not to spend the same sums on building up their military forces as they have in recent years. I know that the Prime Minister is trying to dissuade President Reagan from recommencing arms deliveries to Argentina, although he could rightly protest that the first thing she did when the war with the Argentines was over was to authorise British firms to put essential machinery into German warships for delivery to Argentina this summer. More importantly, she must stop her currently planned arms deliveries to the tottering dictatorship in Chile, which is Argentina's deadly enemy. Argentina has every right to want to maintain strong forces so long as it is threatened by the Pinochet dictatorship over the many territorial disputes that they have.
  I understand that HMS Antrim, the ship upon which we relied to rescue our citizens from Grenada, is being sold to Chile with a number of Jaguars equipped with Sea Eagle. It would make a great deal of sense for us and the

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  United States to get together and agree upon a moritorium of arms deliveries to that part of the world and, better still, if we could persuade France and Israel to join a similar moritorium.
  Arms expenditure in that part of the world does not just buttress military dictatorships; it is the main cause of the debt problem which could even now bring down the private banking system in ruins.
  Mr. David Winnick: Is it not interesting that after the recent disturbances which took place in Chile in which children were killed there was no condemnation of the Chilean Government's action by the Prime Minister or her Foreign Secretary?
  Mr. Healey: I cannot confirm that. I have a feeling that some protest was delivered to the Chilean ambassador. An answer to that can perhaps be given later.
  The troubles in the Lebanon today are not the result of a Soviet plot. Fighting has been going on between the various communities at least since the crusades. Fighting is certain to continue unless the Christian minority can be persuaded to give a fairer share of political power to the Muslim majority and Syria's historical interest in the Lebanon is recognised.
  The Government should make it clear to the Governments of Lebanon and the United States that we will withdraw our participation in the peacekeeping force unless the Geneva negotiations succeed in achieving those two objects.
  The settlement of the current intercommunal problem in the Lebanon will not be sufficient unless account is also taken of the 300,000 Palestinians who are not represented at Geneva, some 100 of whom are carrying weapons. It was their presence in the Lebanon nine years ago which led the Christian Government to invite Syria into the Lebanon with the agreement of Israel and the United States. I learn that there was a savage attack this morning on Yasser Arafat's men in which many were killed. There is no doubt that so long as the Palestinians remain in Lebanon they will be open to the type of massacre that they suffered in Chatila camp a year ago.
  The Palestinians must be given somewhere to live, and it cannot be another Arab country. They were pushed out of Jordan and the Lebanon. Syria certainly will not accept them nor will any other Arab country. There is only one place that they can go, and that is where they came from —the West Bank of the Jordan, and Gaza. However, the Israeli Government are colonising the West Bank.
  Many people believe that the main purpose of the invasion of Lebanon was to distract world attention from the build up of settlements on the West Bank which has been going on apace since then.
  Mr. Cyril D. Townsend: The right hon. Gentleman will recall that a few weeks ago he called for the precipitate withdrawal of the British contingent from the Lebanon when it was helping to facilitate the current talks on the Lebanon in Switzerland. Would not such a withdrawal have given the wrong message to the Syrians, embarrass our allies and weaken Great Britain's strong position in the Middle East?
  Mr. Healey: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The House will recall that I said here, and many times on radio and
  1026
  television before the House reassembled, exactly what I am saying now, that the conditions for the maintenance of British forces in the Lebanon must be a move by the Lebanese Government to a fairer sharing of power with the Muslim community and recognition of Syria's legitimate, historical interests in Lebanon. I said that if that could not be achieved we should discuss multilateral withdrawal with other members of the peacekeeping force and only if that failed should we go for unilateral withdrawal.
  Mr. Russell Johnston: Like many other people, the right hon. Gentleman has said that he believes that there should be a shift in the traditional balance of the Lebanese Government in favour of the Muslims. How should that be done? Is he saying that the Maronites should give up the presidency?
  Mr. Healey: I will not take the decisions that the hon. Gentleman said—I agree with him on this—could be taken only by those who are present at the Geneva talks. There is a variety of methods by which an acceptable solution can be found. It will not be found if the United States Government make it clear that they will support the Maronite Christians in the argument, and still less if they use military force to protect them while they refuse to move in that direction, which is what they did recently.
  President Reagan said one helpful thing during his television speech last week—that he wanted to return to the peace plan that he launched a year ago. I suggest that we should all use our influence to achieve that, but we must not forget that the main reason that the peace plan never got off the ground was that Mr. Begin's Government rejected it out of hand from the word go and refused to discuss it. Therefore, it was not worth any of the other parties to the dispute taking the risk of moving in that direction.
  I fear that if we cannot achieve a rapid move in that direction, America may slip back into an alliance with Israel which would produce exactly the result that President Reagan wants to avoid. It would push the whole of the Arab middle east into the Soviet embrace.
  The war between Iran and Iraq has already cost about 300,000 lives. It reduced the supply of middle east oil to the rest of the world when, fortunately, there was an oil glut so that no one was seriously inconvenienced. I believe that the French Government were profoundly unwise to have supplied the Iraqi Government with Super Etendards for delivering Exocet missiles. As I came in today I heard an unconfirmed report that one of those aircraft has sunk a Greek tanker in the Gulf.
  The risk of explosion is great. The Iranians have threatened to block Hormuz. The Americans have said that if they do they will intervene directly in the war. There is no doubt that if America intervenes there would be a grave risk of the Soviet Union intervening as well. The West must use all its influence in the search for a peaceful settlement, either along the lines of the French proposal at the Security Council or the Bahraini suggestion which is being discussed in the Gulf.
  I do not believe that any foreseeable circumstances can justify American military intervention in the Gulf war. If the straits of Hormuz were blocked most people, including Mr. Yamani, believe that it could be cleared within a week if not days. The consumer countries have enormous stocks of oil upon which they could draw to make good a

  1027
  temporary shortfall and prevent oil prices rocketing. The Saudis could send more oil through their pipeline to the Mediterranean and efforts could be made to open the Iraqi pipeline.
  In a rational world, the United States, knowing what is at stake in the middle east, would be discussing these problems with the Soviet Union, but the dialogue between those countries has almost ceased. If it ever takes place it will be a dialogue of the deaf. It is vital that that dialogue be restored. It is not easy for Great Britain to play a role especially as the Prime Minister has so often supported the Americans' decision on many of these issues. The European Community might collectively play a useful role.
  If we cannot restore the Soviet-American dialogue, we shall not just see an extrapolation of the trends of the past 12 months, which is bad enough; we risk a chain reaction of negative responses on both sides which could produce a complete collapse of relations within 12 months.
  I conclude with some words uttered by the Canadian Prime Minister in a thoughtful speech that he made last week:
  "I will tell you right away that I am deeply troubled: by an intellectual climate of acrimony and uncertainty; by the parlous state of East-West relations; by a super power relationship which is dangerously confrontational; and by a widening gap between military strategy and political purpose. All these reveal most profoundly the urgent need to assert the pre-eminence of the mind of man over the machines of war."
  I believe that the influence of the British Government must be used to reassert the pre-eminence of the mind of man. I only wish I had more confidence in their willingness and ability to do so.
  Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Before I call the first of the Privy Councillors to speak, I appeal to them to display their usual restraint and to speak briefly.
  5.12 pm
  Mr. Geoffrey Rippon: I shall bear in mind your injunction, Mr. Speaker.
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has been playing the role of world statesman today. The tone of his speech was milder than many of his recent pronouncements, here and in the United States, but the content hardly bears examination. I shall not examine it in detail, but it is clear that if one studies carefully what the right hon. Gentleman has said and done over a great many years—his reference to Suez shows this; what he did in the far east, in the Gulf, how he turned round in his attitude to Europe—one sees that he rarely says or does anything of which in the last resort the Kremlin would disapprove.
  Mr. Healey: Oh dear!
  Mr. Rippon: When I listen to the right hon. Gentleman I am reminded of a Commonwealth Prime Minister who once said of him to me, "He has the best trained Marxist mind in the Western world." His casuistry is marvellous. If the right hon. Gentleman went to work on a bicycle he would ride it vigorously in one direction and then turn round in front of one's very eyes and say, "I am still going in the same direction." Sometimes he speaks with such authority that people are apt to believe that he pursues a consistent purpose.
  Mr. Healey: I am fascinated that the right hon. and learned Gentleman finds it so difficult to deal with any of the points I made that he must go in for the trumpery of character assassination. But whose character is he assassinating? He began by saying that I had been an absolutely consistent agent for the Soviet Union for the last 30 years and the next moment he said that I change direction every few days. Can he help on that?
  Mr. Rippon: The right hon. Gentleman makes my point. He thinks like a Marxist; he can change direction while giving the impression that he is still going the same way. I am simply saying that when we analyse what the right hon. Gentleman said we discover that we have listened to a speech today which would give great satisfaction to the Politburo, and I hope that the House will reject the attack that he made on President Reagan and the United States Administration.
  I shall put my remarks in the context of what has happened in Grenada. Whatever view we take of the action and attitude that Her Majesty's Government have adopted, we are agreed, as we always are in these situations, that we should try to avoid being found in similar disarray in future.
  My belief, already expressed, is that we should have given immediate support to our Commonwealth partners in the eastern Caribbean, who rightly felt threatened by a military coup and the prospect of extensive Soviet-Cuban subversion in their area. We now know, whatever the right hon. Member for Leeds, East may say — the Government have made it clear—that by one means or another the Governor-General invited the United States' Caribbean intervention in circumstances in which I believe that intervention was legitimate and, as the Governor-General said, inevitable.
  I share the view expressed by Lord Home in another place that we should have supported Jamaica, Barbados and the United States in the United Nations instead of abjectly abstaining both on the vote in the Security Council and yesterday in the General Assembly. On the other hand, we are right to be concerned about the inadequacy of the machinery for consultation between ourselves and the United States. That needs to be strengthened.
  But what about our special relationship with our Commonwealth countries? 'What concerns me greatly is that we seem to have had no clear communication from the Governor-General or from the Prime Ministers of, for example, Barbados, St. Lucia or Dominica, all of whom have expressed great dismay at the lack of support that they have received from the British Government.
  Apart from the bizarre episode of the telex that somehow got misdirected, what is really of concern is that we took no steps to find out from our Commonwealth partners what was happening. After all, one can hardly expect a telephone call from the Governor-General in the middle of a bloody revolution. He was manifestly in great difficulty in that situation, so surely the onus was or the British Government to find out what was going on.
  In that connection, it may be thought that our man in Grenada might have told us, but we did not have one. There were dozens of Soviet and East German officials and hundreds of Cubans there, but there was no representative of the British Government in a Commonwealth country in a situation which had been deteriorating for some time. Also in that connection, it may be remembered that the

  1029
  fifth report of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee drew attention to this matter during the 1981–82 Session, specifically recommending that
  "the post in Grenada should be strengthened"
  so that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office might be adequately informed of all economic, social and political developments on the island. Instead, it seems that we have been uninformed to the bitter end.
  I appreciate that there are difficulties in knowing exactly what happened in the course of the crisis, but I hope that the Government will consider issuing a document stating precisely what they did and heard during the critical period between the assassination of the Prime Minister and some of his Ministers and the commencement of the intervention.
  There are, however, wider issues, to which I wish to refer, in the broader context of our foreign policy. We must above all look at why we are continually reacting to crises rather than anticipating and, hopefully, avoiding them. We tend to send the fire engines—apparently we did not even have a fire engine to send on this occasion —when the fire has broken out. There are a number of lessons that we have to learn, the first being that President Reagan was right when he said:
  "Events in Grenada and the Lebanon, though oceans apart, are closely related".
  That is because the interests of the free world are indivisible. So, too, is the defence of democracy, freedom and justice. There are some, not least in this House, who want to have some sort of divergence between our Atlantic, European and Commonwealth interests and they are apt to say that they are for one rather than another. In fact, they are all British interests and they are complementary.
  I welcome the comment in the Foreign Secretary's speech—this is the second lesson that we must learn—to the effect that Britain can have real influence in the world only within a European context. I welcome my right hon. Friend's commitment to Europe. The Stuttgart declaration this year is worth remembering, when the Heads of State and Government, including our Prime Minister, said that they
  "reaffirm their will to transform the whole complex of relations between their states into a European union."
  They particularly declared their determination
  "to strengthen and develop European political co-operation, convinced, as they are, that by speaking with a single voice on foreign policy, including aspects of security, Europe can contribute to the preservation of peace."
  We must set about making a reality of that rhetoric.
  The third lesson that we must learn is in many ways the most important. It is the folly of spending billions of pounds on defence and yet grudging every penny spent on the pursuit of the coherent foreign policy that is necessary to prevent subversion and conflict.
  We usually blame the Foreign Office for failure to provide information or to know what is happening, when we should really blame the Treasury. Whenever there is a financial squeeze, the Treasury argues that all Departments must bear their share of the economies. It says that because house improvement grants have got out of line and the Department of the Environment has to make savings it follows that the Foreign Office and other Departments must bear their share of economies. It is
  1030
  dangerous as well as illogical when that policy results, as I believe it has done, in a situation such as has arisen in the Eastern Caribbean, and as it did in the Falklands, too.
  The fifth report of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs gave us fair warning. It is a massive document, and it clearly showed how all the countries in the region were beset, as they are still beset, by economic problems which could be the foundations of serious conflict at any time. Freedom and poverty cannot indefinitely exist together. Britain, the United States and Europe should have been working together in the eastern Caribbean for a long time to promote the trade and interests of those small countries.
  I believe, for example, that the United States was wrong, after the devastation of the banana industry in the Windward Islands after Hurricane Allen in 1981 — including, of course, Grenada—to make it a condition of United States aid that no part of the funds should be allocated or made available to rehabilitate the banana industry in Grenada. That illustrates the folly at times of our foreign policy and attitudes. It also illustrates how counterproductive are economic sanctions, which are so frequently called for.
  I recall that when we joined the Community we ourselves gave the eastern Caribbean countries solemn assurances that we would aid them in protecting their trading interests. I remember at that time warning the United States, which was asking them to choose preference areas between Europe and the United States, that if they were not careful—I think it was The Voice of Lucia in February 1971 which quoted me —and if they pursued that policy, they could find seven or eight Cubas on their hands. We got perilously close to that last week.
  The West India Committee in 1981 talked about the economic problems of the area, saying:
  "Any move which isolates or weakens links with Grenada is likely to push it nearer total dependence on aid donors whose presence in the islands may be detrimental to British interests"
  —not just United States interests.
  I am glad that the Foreign Secretary made it clear this afternoon that we shall restore bilateral aid and technical co-operation. The Minister of State in the other place said that we would be ready to send food, medical supplies and help in the process of reconstruction. The tragedy is that we are doing this after and not before the event.
  We must therefore share a measure of blame with the United States for having allowed conditions to be created in the east Caribbean in which subversion and revolution flourish. We would do well to learn that lesson, perhaps above all else, if we hope to win the battle against Communist and subversive forces.
  5.23 pm
  Mr. James Callaghan: The international situation is bleak. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said, it is dangerous, but it is not hopeless.
  In the short space of time in which Back Benchers are rightly circumscribed, I want to say four things. First, Britain needs a more vigorous diplomacy than we have had for some time. Secondly, the biggest cause of tension at present is the arms race. What we need, above all, is arms control and disarmament. The number of nuclear weapons now strewn in Europe is ridiculous and absurd. Thirdly, we need a continuous discussion with the Soviet Union on the matters that divide us, as well as on the few matters

  1031
  that unite us. We should not hesitate to bring those issues into the open and have discussions with the Soviet Union about them. Lastly, the recent unwise and impetuous actions of the United States should not be used to undermine the Alliance, which has been and is the bedrock of our security.
  I welcome much of what the Foreign Secretary said this afternoon. That he is ready to listen to the Russians, that he is ready to place his views before them, and that deployment can be halted or even reversed, given favourable circumstances, all make good sense. However, I am bound to say that that is very different from what we have heard from the Prime Minister in particular and in the speeches to which my right hon. Friend referred. More of the kind of speech that we heard from the right hon. and learned Gentleman today and less of the Prime Minister's Canadian-type speech will do us a lot more good and help to reduce tension.
  I ask for a more vigorous foreign policy. I say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, in all friendliness, that he has what I believe is nowadays called a "laid back" style. I am sure that in his wildest and most outrageous moments he would not describe himself as a human dynamo.
  I believe strongly that, faced with the problems that exist today, the right hon. and learned Gentleman has an opportunity to play a vigorous and important role through a number of channels, both directly and indirectly, to deal with some of the problems. Every hon. Member who moves around the world must have received calls—not always disinterested — for us to play a more important role and take an interest in and show a deeper concern for what is happening, because of our history and experience.
  There is something in that. At a time when there is less cohesion in the Western Alliance than I can remember for many years, Britain could play a helpful role, both through various institutions and directly. The plain truth—and I say this as one who is a strong supporter of the Alliance, as the House knows—is that there is less agreement, less belief, in the correctness of the United States analysis of world problems or of the remedies that it proposes in some directions than I can remember. This is an opportunity for an ally of the United States and a member of the Alliance to play a part in that situation.
  It is depressing to list the regional conflicts that are incapable of settlement. As my right hon. Friend said, it is absurd to lay all the blame at the door of the Soviet Union. Many of the conflicts seem almost irreconcilable. He referred, for example, to Lebanon, and that is certainly true in that area. However, Grenada does not present such a problem. It is not divided by great differences between its own people. Nor is it divided from the neighbouring islands. There is no deep-seated history of the problem. In my view, the action of the United States, taken as it was, and in the way that it was, was unwise and precipitate. It displayed a lack of understanding of the consequences. It has brought welcome relief to the people of Grenada and out of evil can come good, as we all know, but it failed to take into account the immensely complicated problem of acknowledging the principle of the inviolable integrity of a sovereign state, however small.
  I wish that British foreign policy and British diplomacy had been more vigorous and more active. We are a leading member of the Commonwealth. We were aware of the problems that were growing. Mr. Tom Adams, the Prime Minister of Barbados, made no secret of his worry and
  1032
  concern about the danger, not of the invasion of Grenada particularly, but of small islands in the Caribbean being taken over by a Mafia group type of people who could make great difficulties for lightly armed islands in the Caribbean.
  The Foreign Secretary, instead of waiting for that to happen—I know the problems that flow across his table —should, by inserting a jab into several people, make sure that these problems are handled more actively and positively by the Foreign Office. We could have taken the lead in an issue such as this, which was boiling up. As recently as July I was in touch with the Prime Minister of Barbados because of his desire to have some lightly armed coastal vessels because of the danger that he saw. If I knew that as a Back Bencher, the Commonwealth section of the Foreign Office must have been aware of it.
  I regret that, because of a failure of dynamism and a failure to take the initiative, we now have a divided Commonwealth. I hear that Mrs. Ghandi is saying that in no circumstances will she take part in any Commonwealth force and that this matter must be left to the United Nations. This is essentially a Commonwealth problem. We should give the lead, and we could have helped to resolve this problem.
  My criticism of the United States is that President Reagan is insisting on making Grenada an example of his global anti-Communist policy. I shall not linger on this topic, because my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East dealt with this efffectively. President Reagan's is a doctrine that puts all conflicts, however regional, however local, whatever their origins, into an East-West context.
  That is an error into which the Prime Minister frequently falls. As a consequence, small conflicts become enlarged and take on a deeper significance than they should, because they become a function of East-West conflict. I urge the Foreign Secretary—I thought that I detected this idea in his speech—to try to separate these things in the way recommended by my right hon. Friend. This simplistic trap is one from which President Reagan must be diverted, and the British Government have a big responsibility in arguing with him—as much as I hope they will argue and discuss with the Soviet Union—the way in which he should look at this problem. His way is calculated to heighten tension, worsen relations and not solve any issues.
  I have heard more than one person say that the danger does not come from war in Europe, and I agree with that. I have little doubt that we shall maintain the peace in Europe. The Soviet Union attaches as high a priority to that as we do. The danger comes from some of the small regional conflicts becoming a flashpoint that will involve the super powers and the two alliances in a situation which may become uncontrollable. These conflicts are not the central cause of our dispute with the Soviet Union, but they are used to promote the interests of either one side or the other. Therefore, they are the most likely tinderbox.
  A number of these conflicts would still continue even if there were an East-West understanding. However, much of the danger of engulfing the rest of us would be removed if there were an understanding. The Soviet Union regards the present world situation as dangerous. One official said to me that it was more dangerous than at any time since the great patriotic war. Each of us regards the other as the principal threat to its security. Neither of us can be satisfied with the other's present posture.

  1033
  I believe that deterrence has been effective since the end of the second world war, but I have every desire to ensure that deterrence is kept to a minimum, both for political reasons and because of the strain on our economy and those of the other countries involved. The installation of Pershing and the Soviet counter-response, which will inevitably come, will not enhance the security of either side. It will increase joint insecurity. The arms race must be curbed.
  In the Soviet Union there are great doubts about President Reagan's seriousness in embarking on such an agreement. I offer my view here, as I have offered it in my other conversations, that while this may have been true during the first two years of this presidency, both the President and the British Government are now ready to come to an arms agreement if it can be satisfactorily worked out between both sides. Given that negotiations would take place privately and there would be no attempt to make public propaganda, it is not impossible to come to an understanding and an agreement that would increase security, because it would increase the confidence that each side has in the other. I am glad to see the Foreign Secretary nodding, and I hope that means that he agrees with me.
  We do not know the nature or the extent of the response of the Soviet Union to Pershing. At some lower levels the Soviets insisted that continuing the talks was useless because the Americans would, by their action in deploying Pershing, make it worthless to do so. I replied with the crisp comment that Mr. Attlee used to make, "Never walk out because you have only to walk back."
  If the position gets worse, as it may do with the deployment of Pershing—the Soviets are not bothered about cruise, Pershing is the weapon about which they are really concerned — we should not regard that as desperate. We would find that after a time there would be a resumption of negotiations perhaps in a different forum. We must have that hope, and that is my conclusion from the conversations that I have had.
  We need a new forum, and here I come to another point made by my right hon. Friend. When discussing these matters in a logical and rational way I find it difficult to resist the argument that the British and French nuclear forces are excluded from the intermediate nuclear forces talks and from START. How can one justify their exclusion from both? I have used arguments, which I shall not use again this afternoon, in reply to that point of view, but I am not satisfied that they enhance the cause of reducing tension.
  I suggest to the Government, and even more to the Government of President Mitterrand, that we should not put away into the Greek caves, as President Mitterrand seemed to suggest, the idea of including French nuclear forces in some distant negotiations but that perhaps the best way forward after an interim and difficult period through which we shall go may be to bring INF talks, intermediate range talks and START together. We, the British and the French, should be prepared to be included in these discussions, as my right hon. Friend said, for the purpose of counting, whatever the views different people may take about the consequences of having or not having Trident when it comes.
  I have already said that we should discuss with the Soviet Union issues on which we have fundamental
  1034
  differences. I can vouch that it is possible to have a rational, logical, non-propagandist discussion with the Russians. Sir John Thomson, our ambassador to the United Nations, told me not long ago that the great thing in international relations was to explain, explain, and explain again. Having had the advantage of recent talks in the Soviet Union, I venture to say that the Russians may understand a little more of our anxieties and the reason for them than we think, and perhaps I understand a little more why they take the view that they do. There can be nothing lost by talking about the fundamental issues that divide us.
  I strongly take the view that there is nothing so dangerous to us at the moment than our isolation and the mutual ignorance that we have of each other, apart from several small institutions in the heart of Moscow which make a detailed investigation of, and research into, the entrails of the Conservative party and the woes of my party. They are ready to discuss these matters in great detail and with great knowledge. Apart from that handful of people, they are ignorant of the way in which we look at these matters. I know from some of the comments that I hear that we are in the same state of blindness about them and that is dangerous.
  I hope that the Foreign Secretary will follow up at all levels the views that I am putting forward. Sometimes these efforts will be harnessed through the European Community, sometimes through the Commonwealth and sometimes through the United Nations, but there is a role for Britain independently to play, with her history, experience and background knowledge, in one of the most difficult world problems through which I have lived.
  The Falklands is another case where we should act ourselves. I hope that the Prime Minister will dismiss from her mind the absurd notion that 50 years must pass before we do anything about the Falklands. With a new Argentine Administration in power, we should start to talk about ways in which we can find a solution. It may involve sovereignty in one form or another, but we have been prepared to consider it—my Government were and the Prime Minister's Government have been prepared to consider it in the past. We should be prepared to consider these matters. Here is another opportunity for the Foreign Secretary to lay off the laid back approach, take on a dynamic approach, and bustle around the world and get a few things done.
  I say that to the right hon. and learned Gentleman in all kindness. He knows that I seek to secure the reputation and safety of Britain and to ensure that we play our full part in securing a lessening of the tension between us and the Soviet Union. I know that some Conservative Members do not mind that tension, but I do. I believe that it is far too dangerous to permit, because of the consequences in other areas.
  I think that the Soviets are ready to thicken up the channels of communication. It sounds as though the right hon. and learned Gentleman is ready to do so. We can lose nothing. I beg of him to begin a dialogue—I think that he has already started modestly—and I urge him to act quickly and, without giving away our position, to act in such a way that Britain's reputation and her history will command respect from many other people.
  5.41 pm
  Mr. Mark Robinson: It is always a special moment for a new Member of Parliament when he rises to make a maiden speech, and sometimes the

  1035
  culmination of the childhood aspiration which many have to speak in this august Chamber. It is therefore with some trepidation that I make my initial intervention in the hope that this step, however tentative, will be the first of many in this historic place.
  I represent the new constituency of Newport, West and as such I have no one predecessor on whom I can heap fulsome praise. My constituents, however, would wish me to mention my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Stradling Thomas) and the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes), both of whom have looked after my constituents for many years. If I can come within a small distance of their contributions I will be worthy at least of a place in this House.
  Newport, West mirrors the problems and challenges that the nation faces. It is an industrial town and the constituency takes in everything in Newport west of the river Usk and includes the outlying towns of Caerleon, Rogerstone, Bassaleg and Marshfield. It contains heavy and light industry and a strong agricultural component. The problems it faces are the problems of high unemployment, and the challenges it faces are the challenges of the new industries, particularly the high technology industries that are coming to south Wales down the M4 corridor. It is perhaps a microcosm of the nation and an exciting place to represent.
  Newport is strategically located in terms of communications, particularly with the development of new roads throughout south Gwent. In that context I must mention the Severn bridge, our link with England. That has been a controversial topic in recent days but I hope that we can get back to a reasoned debate about the future of the bridge. The discussion that has been going on in the past few days has been highly damaging, particularly to the cause of the new industries that we are trying to attract not only into my constituency but to the region as a whole.
  I speak today having had more than a decade of experience in international affairs: first, in the executive office of the secretary-general of the United Nations and, secondly, in a similar capacity at the Commonwealth Secretariat. I hope therefore that the House will not mind if I spend a few moments focusing my remarks on Grenada, not so much on what has happened in the past few weeks as on what lies in store for that troubled island in the future.
  It is a sad day in the transition from empire to modern Commonwealth when one of our former colonies that has come to independence has had its Government changed through the intervention of an outside force, albeit that of one of our principal allies. We have steered more than 40 countries to independence and we have never as yet had to intervene to change their Governments. There have been tyrannies far worse than the tyranny in Grenada—I think particularly of Uganda. But the disagreements we have had with our principal ally over the past few days, as in any relationship with friends, with business partners or with allies when voiced publicly and voiced sensibly, do not weaken or destroy relationships but rather enhance them. I do not take the view that has been voiced in other quarters that this represents a fundamental change in the relationship between the United States and Britain. Far from it — I feel that the frankness that has been engendered in the debate should be a cause for reassurance in future relations with our principal ally.
  The aim for Grenada must surely be the re-establishment of democracy in a way acceptable to the
  1036
  people of Grenada and to the wider international community. That is an area in which Britain and the Commonwealth have the experience to help. We have a track record with Zimbabwe and we have recent experience in Uganda. I feel sure that the forthcoming Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in New Delhi offers the opportunity, in the words of the late Prime Minister Nehru, to add "a touch of healing". It is worth remembering that the Caribbean part of the Commonwealth has hitherto been peaceful and the region can only suffer if it is drawn into the vicissitudes of great power rivalry. If we can help to restore a sense of balance within that part of the Caribbean, we will have made a notable contribution.
  There has been much discussion behind the scenes about the need to tackle the issue of the political and economic problems of the micro states. When this sorry incident is behind us the focus of that discussion should be heightened a little in public awareness. Many small Governments face difficult problems with which they do not have the infrastructure to cope. They cannot defend themselves when their Governments are taken over by a bunch of bandits and similarly they are exposed to the vicissitudes of economic change in a manner that larger independent Commonwealth Governments do not have to withstand. There is a way, through our aid and development programme, to help these smaller micro states and I urge my right hon. and learned Friend to give some further thought to this when the crisis is over.
  I am mindful of your injunction to be brief, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so I will draw my remarks to a close by briefly touching upon two other areas of concern. Indeed, they have already been touched upon in this debate.
  I welcome the return to democracy in Argentina. The election of Senator Raul Alfonsin may provide an olive branch on which we must not turn our backs. Even if it is only an opportunity to end the state of hostilities which still exists between our two countries, we should take it as a first and paramount step. Secure as the future of the Falkland islanders may be now, in the long term, unless Britain and Argentina can redevelop their friendship, there will always be a black cloud hanging over the long-term future of the islanders.
  Hong Kong requires a creative solution. I was grateful to hear the reassurances of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. But the problems of Hong Kong will be extremely difficult to solve. Business confidence and the need to secure Hong Kong's economy are important. The danger lies in negotiations dragging on for too long, thereby causing confidence gradually to be sapped. That is not something that either this Government or the Chinese Government would want.
  I thank the House for listening to me so patiently this afternoon.
  5.52 pm
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: The hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson) made a fluent, informed and penetrating maiden speech to which the House listened with great attention. Although he is a relatively young Member—he was born in the year in which I made my maiden speech — he brings to the House considerable international experience.
  The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) rather rebuked the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr.

  1037
  Walden) for having similar experience. I would not do that. The hon. Member for Newport, West brings valuable experience to the House. If he speaks on future occasions as he has on this occasion, he will command tremendous attention.
  We read in at least one newspaper today that the Foreign Secretary is fighting for his political life. That did not make him red in tooth or claw during his speech. I hope that he survives. Any infelicities of presentation that he may have committed during the past 10 days are nothing compared with the mistaken and damaging policies that he pursued as Chancellor of the Exchequer during the past four years. He was rewarded with a transfer to the Foreign Office, with almost universal acclaim—except, perhaps, from the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Pym).
  When I went to Brussels recently, for the first time in two and three quarter years—I have been occupied in British politics recently — I was impressed by the number of people who said that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has made an impact on the Council of Ministers as a Foreign Secretary. Admittedly, they gave a good reason for that — the right hon. and learned Gentleman is impervious to boredom, which is an important quality in the affairs of Europe. It is also—[Interruption.] [AN HON. MEMBER: "The lights are going out all over Europe."]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order. This is the Deputy Speaker speaking. The sitting is suspended until lighting is restored.
  5.56 pm
  Sitting suspended.
  5.59 pm
  On resuming——
  Mr. Jenkins: As it will have occurred——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think it wise to suspend the sitting for a few more minutes until we have the engineers' report on how effectively the lighting has been restored. I hope that the House will bear with me until we have that report.
  6 pm
  Sitting suspended.
  6.5 pm
  On resuming——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I can inform the House that the engineers have been able carry out makeshift repairs which they hope will sustain us through the sitting. Therefore, it might be sensible to resume our proceedings.
  Before I call the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) to continue, I should explain that the digital clocks have been affected by the electrical fault and are not recording the correct time.
  Mr. Jenkins: Perhaps I should begin, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by asking the leave of the House to speak for the third time in this debate.
  I shall not go back to the beginning. I was engaged in talking about the present Foreign Secretary rather than about Sir Edward Grey. At least we have had the lights lit more quickly than he expected on that evening in 1914.
  Although the Foreign Secretary bears a heavy responsibility for what he did at the Treasury, he does not
  1038
  deserve to be under quite as much attack as some people think. I do not quarrel with him too much on the substance of what he has done about Grenada. Certainly I do not quarrel with his decision not to support the American invasion. Equally, in view of our relationship with the Americans—as their principal ally—to abstain in the Security Council was a sufficient condemnation.
  Let us be clear that on the substance of this issue, as of others, the Prime Minister is every bit as responsible as the Foreign Secretary. Moreover, she has the special humiliation—and to some extent the real humiliation—of being so disregarded by the Americans because it is she, not the Foreign Secretary, who has so cultivated her special relationship with President Reagan. Nor would it be remotely creditable or sensible for her to consider sacking another Foreign Secretary at present. I read in one newspaper this morning that senior Conservatives were saying — it is always senior Conservatives; I wonder how senior one has to be a senior rather than a junior Conservative——
  Mr. Ian Mikardo: Senile.
  Mr. Jenkins: No. For example, I am sure that the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) now counts as a senior Conservative and he is certainly not senile. I read that they were making the good but obvious joke that to lose one Foreign Secretary might be a misfortune but to lose three would point to carelessness. It is better to go back to the original Wilde — to lose the first is a misfortune, to lose the second careless, although perhaps a little deliberate—but to lose a third would cast grave doubt on the other partner in the relationship, the Prime Minister at 10 Downing street.
  There is no doubt that all the evidence shows strongly that British foreign policy has by far the best chance of working effectively when there is a good balance of power between the Foreign Office and No. 10. When that is not so, when the power flows too much and when the Prime Minister tries to run the whole thing, it does not work well. That was true in the latter days of the Lloyd George coalition when Curzon was as weak as he was grand. It was true in the late 1930s when Neville Chamberlain tried to do far too much at No. 10 Downing Street. There was a complete contrast between the position then and that of the days of Attlee and Sevin. While there is no doubt that nobody now thinks that Attlee was weak, none the less prerogatives of foreign policy-making remained where they belong—with the Foreign Secretary in the Foreign Office, subject to discussion with the Cabinet.
  The Foreign Office has been much maligned recently. I hold no particular brief for it. It so happens that it is the only one of the three traditionally great Departments of state in which I have never served. However, I have worked with it closely and seen it in operation. [AN HON. MEMBER: "The right hon. Gentleman is not likely to now."] No, I am not likely to now, and nor is the hon. Member. However, he has some years to go and I may be wrong. I have worked in a close relationship with representatives of the Foreign Office, often to some extent in a semi-adversarial relationship.
  My view is that if anything, compared with other Departments, there is too great, and not too small, a concentration of talent in the Foreign Office. The view that it constantly represents interests other than those of Britain is the most primitive chauvinism, and nothing else. In any

  1039
  event, one would not have a good foreign policy with a demoralised Foreign Office. It is a bad Minister who blames his officials. I do not accuse the Foreign Secretary of doing that. It is a bad Prime Minister who is constantly leaking and hinting that the Department that others manage to use well enough is not worthy of her leadership.
  Mr. Robert Jackson: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that often the attacks on the Foreign Office are a case of trying to shoot the messenger bearing ill tidings?
  Mr. Jenkins: I do. I thank the hon. Gentleman for having added to the point that I was endeavouring to make.
  I mentioned good foreign policy for Britain. That begs the question of what is good foreign policy for Britain in our present circumstances of limited resources, with far too much being devoted to fortress Falklands. It is a ludicrous amount. The Soviet Union, perhaps because of an uncertain internal balance, may be less predictable than at many periods in the past. It is potentially menacing. The United States Administration arouses much distrust across the political spectrum not only in this country but in the rest of Europe. I agree with the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour), who said on Monday that this is the most unreliable United States Administration since the war. However, we have to live with it and we may have to live with it for another four years after 1984. Let us not deceive ourselves that all previous United States Administrations received unanimous trust and enthusiastic approval in the House and in this country at all periods since 1945. This Administration in not the worst. There was much distrust when Secretary Dulles dominated the Eisenhower Administration.
  Mr. Mikardo: Quite right, too.
  Mr. Jenkins: On the whole, quite right.
  Even when the best American Administrations, as they now seem, were in full control, there were waves of distrust. I vividly remember the occasion when, at the end of 1950, it was thought that President Truman would drop the atomic bomb on the Chinese, and when panic went through the Lobbies of the House. Mr. Attlee had to announce that he would go to Washington to stop it. When he got there, he discovered that President Truman had no intention of doing any such thing. None the less, the mission achieved two or three minor successes. The Cuban missile crisis is now considered a classic example of cool rationalism in foreign policy. The idea that opinion here was solid throughout those anxious nine days is far from the full truth.
  There are several lessons to be learnt. In a continuing alliance, which is the basis of our security and defence policy, if it is going to mean anything, we cannot call it into question every time the major partner does something that we do not like. We should also be restrained in our criticism—not necessarily in our advice or the firmness of our views — and not whip up feeling, as, to a substantial extent, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has done not so much today, but previously.
  There is a continuing dichotomy about our attitude and the attitude throughout Europe towards the United States policy. We are torn between the fear that America will desert us and apprehension that she wants to use us as, for
  1040
  her, a relatively safe battlefield. If she does nothing, we are inclined to accuse her of weakness. If she does something, we accuse her of rashness.
  We should not give up our rights of independent judgment and criticism. However, we should have just a little sensitivity to how things look from the other end of the telescope. It is not enough to say, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, East has, that it is perfectly all right to say what we like because things have been said more sharply and critically inside the United States. Throughout the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt, the most dreadful things were said in America about him. If they had been echoed by Winston Churchill or leading Members of the House, the outlook would not have been so bright in 1941. I believe that it was a profound misjudgment to go into Grenada as the Americans did. There are law-abiding and long-term considerations that we should keep in mind.
  The other lesson that we should learn is that it is highly desirable that we should strengthen the European pillar of NATO. It is a false dichotomy to say "Europe or NATO", but it is not false to say that we should have a more collective and effective political and defence policy within the European part of the NATO Alliance. The European Community now has a larger gross national product than the United States. With regard to conventional forces, the EC provides the overwhelming proportion of the ground forces and most of the ships. It is in a considerable position today. The European Community will be enlarged. It will be more complete, with the inclusion of Spain and Portugal.
  We should be prepared to take a more substantial political and defence role. If we want to do so, we must settle the budget question in the near future. I believe that the Foreign Secretary appreciates that. The debate has been going on for four years or more. My recollection is vivid. It is not correct, as the Foreign Secretary said, that the matter was not raised during the prime ministership of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Callaghan). It was. However, it was only just beginning to surface because the imbalance was beginning to surface. It became a more violent question of dispute in the year following that.
  The Prime Minister has been a most powerful, some might say virulent, arguer of the British point of view. She is not always the most effective negotiator. Lord Carrington picked up a solution that was no better than the one the Prime Minister rejected in 1980. Be that as it may, the right hon. Lady is a most powerful proponent of our case.
  However, if Europe is to play its full part in the world political balance, every European Council should not he turned into an accountants' wrangle. That has happened for two, three or four years now. We have got near 1.0 getting a substantial part of what we can get. The question must be brought to an end at Athens. The sums that we are discussing are less than those involved in the Falklands. There is no reason why we should not get a good and fair deal, but there is a reason why we should see matters in proportion.
  I believe that Europe must take part in the disarmament negotiations. The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth was quite correct to say that it is impossible to maintain that the British and French deterrents cannot be counted in either the intermediate or the strategic talks. Anyone who understands the subject must realise that that is a wholly untenable position.

  1041
  I believe that those talks can and will continue in a new phase even after some cruise and, more dangerously, Pershing missiles have been deployed. In all our arguments on these matters, there is a danger of our becoming obsessed with a particular weapon that suddenly seizes the imagination and of not thinking out the underlying philosophy. I certainly do not believe that a few cruise missiles will make all the difference. The Russians will still talk if they judge it to be in their interests and we judge it to be in ours to do so.
  The essential factor is not the deployment of a particular weapon but whether in the world as a whole we can stand back and say that there is no point and great danger in continuing with a great escalation of nuclear stocks because it will be immensely damaging and will probably ultimately destroy world civilisation. It is not true that the end of the time for negotiations has come. It may come some day, but at the moment the opportunities for negotiation are great. We should be willing to include the French and British deterrents in START and to bring a European voice to put full pressure on the Americans. We should not be washing our hands of anything to do with the nastiness of the deterrent while we shelter under its shield. That is unacceptable and hypocritical. We should be pressing for a more urgent approach and endeavouring to do so on a European basis.
  6.21 pm
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: First, I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson) on his informed, sensitive and sensible speech. We look forward to hearing from him again in the future. He brings useful experience to the House, although I am sure that he will understand when I say that I suspect that his constituents will wish him to follow more in the path of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Stradling Thomas) than in that of his other predecessor. He is most welcome to the House and I sincerely congratulate him. I was especially impressed by what he said about the relationships between this country and the United States — a subject on which I should have liked to follow the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins), but time does not permit.
  When I told the Prime Minister after the last general election that I should prefer not to continue as a Minister at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, it was not because I had lost interest in foreign affairs but because I thought that my remaining would be taken to mean that I believed that my right hon. Friend the previous Foreign Secretary had been properly treated. As that was not my view, the right course seemed to me to be to return to the Back Benches where I can continue to take an interest in foreign affairs and other matters.
  Today I shall confine myself to just one of the many subjects that one is always tempted to raise in debates such as this—the Caribbean. First, however, following the right hon. Member for Hillhead, I wish to say something in defence of the Foreign Office. Hon. Members may have seen the report in the Daily Telegraph on 28 October entitled
  "Falklands ghosts in corridors of Foreign Office".
  That article set out at length a very curious view of the way in which the Foreign Office works, how it disseminates
  1042
  information and how its officials conduct their business. By implication, it sought also to attribute blame to one or two named members of the service. I thought that it was an extraordinary article to have been written by such an experienced diplomatic correspondent as Mr. John Miller, so I rang him up and told him so.
  It does no good to anyone to suggest that the Foreign Office was taking a battering and that the familiar questions were being asked as to who were the guilty men. It is pointless to suggest that the Foreign Office does not use telegrams, that messages are passed from desk to desk by cleft stick and that the information coming in does not reach Ministers. The Foreign Office does not work in the way suggested in that article. It certainly did not work like that when I was there and I am sure that it does not work like that now. The head of the news department at the FCO will perform a useful service if he will take Mr. Miller aside and explain to him how the Foreign Office really works.
  The House should be in no doubt that whatever reports came in about the situation in the Caribbean would be seen very quickly by Ministers at the Foreign Office and by the Prime Minister, as I am sure that she would confirm. The responsibility for what happens rests with Ministers and not with officials. It is wholly unfair to blame officials and I hope that there will be less of that in the future. It is equally unfair to heap blame on my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary because he sometimes has to stonewall at the Dispatch Box. That has certainly happened before. Indeed, from time to time mumbling has been hailed as the height of statesmanship. Members of other parties have had to do their share of it, too, but it is not particularly desirable and I am sure that the House agrees that it should happen very rarely.
  When I first took on responsibilities at the Foreign Office in response to the Prime Minister's invitation after the Falklands crisis, I asked whether there was in general circulation throughout the Department a concise and clear statement of British foreign policy on one sheet of paper. My admirable private secretary replied, "Minister, there certainly ought to be." The question was oversimplified, of course, because the variations and complexities of our foreign policy in different parts of the world would make it impossible to get it all on to one sheet of paper.
  Mr. Mikardo: It would take two sheets.
  Mr. Onslow: If the hon. Gentleman has a simple mind, two sheets might be enough for him. Whatever the number of sheets, I believe that we need a positive, clear and coherent policy in the conduct of our overseas relations and that everyone should understand what that policy is so that we are not forced to react piecemeal to each crisis as it occurs.
  I believe that the basic problem now is that for a number of years this country has not had a clear Caribbean policy. That state of affairs goes back long before 1979 and long before the independence of Grenada. It goes back over Governments of both parties and I freely accept any responsibility that I bear for n. I wish now to offer some constructive comments on this unsatisfactory situation.
  The problem arises partly because as a country we never thought through our proper role in the post-colonial era. In this instance, we have not done enough to meet or to understand the legitimate concerns about security of the small east Caribbean states that we called into existence.

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  Individually they are very small and even when they combine they cannot command much military power. They are in a perilous environment and it is understandable that events in Grenada, like the earlier events in Surinam, should alarm them exceedingly. Given our long affinity with them, we should have recognised that and developed our policy accordingly.
  We have also not shown sufficient understanding of the legitimate concerns of the United States people and Government. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) synthesized this into a comic-strip mentality for President Reagan, but I believe that the right hon. Member for Hillhead was closer to the truth. It is clear from history as far back as the Monroe doctrine that America has always regarded itself as having a special position in its own waters. The Caribbean is so close to the Americans' back door that it is unreasonable to expect them not to take heed of what happens there.
  Another deficiency is that we have not really identified where our own true interests lie. I hope that we can at least agree that if we want to evolve a coherent policy we will not do it by aid alone. Political and economic policies should go hand in hand and should be complementary. It is idle to expect economic progress in an insecure environment, so security must be a precondition of the success of aid policy. In the Commonwealth Caribbean surely we do not wish to see these small states, either singly or collectively, devoting enormous resources to building up their military capability, particularly when we know that, whatever efforts they make, they are unlikely to succeed against the threat that they can see as real from Cuban imperialism. Our aid to all Caribbean countries and dependencies there last year amounted to some £30 million; we gave Mexico £34 million and the Sudan £39 million. There is an imbalance which I hope will be detected by my right hon. and learned Friend.
  It might be possible — perhaps some Opposition Members would like this to happen—for us to wash our hands of all responsibility for security in this area and simply say that time has moved on, that colonial status has ended and that we have other preoccupations, so we should leave it to others in the area to sort it out themselves. In effect, that would be to leave the area to be the cockpit for a power struggle between the Americans on the one hand and the Cubans, as Russian surrogates, on the other. I do not think hon. Members would wish to do this. I have a sincere belief that many people in the country would not wish to do it. I do not believe it is possible for us honourably to do it with the position as it is. As we have been reminded, we have a continuing security responsibility in Belize.
  Mr. Donald Anderson: For how long?
  Mr. Onslow: The hon. Gentleman asks, "For how long?" I well remember standing at the Dispatch Box saying that a British garrison would remain in Belize for an appropriate period. It is, of course, an ideal parliamentary answer because it does not add very much to the stock of human knowledge.
  Mr. George Robertson: Stonewalling.
  Mr. Onslow: I hope the hon. Gentleman will excuse me of stonewalling, because I will readily concede, as I think he will, that the presence of that garrison acts as a
  1044
  deterrent to the invasion of Belize by Guatemala. I hope he will agree that it is important that there should be security in Belize. The question, of course, is how that security is to be provided. If there are ways other than by the deployment of our own military resources that we can provide Belize with sufficient security, we should be working towards them. But it is a big "if".
  We ought to reassess the situation because foreign policy in this area in particular should be driven by our real interests rather than by some imagined scarcity or lack of available military resources. The resources should be deployed, if need be, as a servant of policy rather than the other way round. Certainly we must not create or perpetuate a situation in which the Foreign Secretary of the day is left to make bricks without straw as has happened from time to time during the last 30 years.
  After what has happened in Grenada, a unilateral British withdrawal from Belize would do further harm to relations between this country and the United States, as well as precipitating a further decline in the stability of the area. It is not something that we should contemplate under these circumstances. I hope very much that the Government will show that they agree.
  Mr. Anderson rose——
  Mr. Onslow: I am sorry, but I will not give way. I want to deal with two more points before I sit down.
  As to Grenada, it is difficult for us to take a credible initiative, but it should be possible for us to respond to one. Indeed, I was glad to hear the Foreign Secretary say that we would take a positive attitude to a Commonwealth security force in Grenada if one were to be formed. I hope that means that there would be a British uniformed component in such a force.
  I hope the Commonwealth Caribbean states in the area, who have been given scant attention in the House in the, discussions on this subject, will feel that it would be a good time for them to call a regional security conference to which they would invite us, the Canadians, the French, who have 5,000 troops in the Caribbean on a permanent basis, and the Americans too. If such an invitation should come, the Prime Minister's response should be prompt and positive.
  From such a conference might come a longer-term arrangement. Although I disapprove violently of Ministers in the Foreign Office travelling excessively—there is a terrible temptation to do so—it would be well received in the eastern Caribbean in particular if a Foreign Office Minister were to go there and talk to Miss Charles, Mr. Adams, Mr. Compton and Mr. Seaga and show them that we are prepared to listen to their side of what happened rather than rely on press reports or second-hand accounts. That should be done soon, reluctant as I am to force travel upon my right hon. and hon. Friends.
  In many parts of the country from top to bottom there is a reinforced reluctance after the Falklands to contemplate the use of British troops in security exercises or commitments which will expose them to high degrees of risk. That is understandable.
  Mr. Dick Douglas: The other way round.
  Mr. Onslow: I do not think the hon. Gentleman is right. [Interruption.] Although the lights have gone out, I can complete my speech without referring to my notes.

  1045
  When the hon. Gentleman reacts as he does to my statement, I hope that he will not fall into the same trap as so many of his hon. Friends of suggesting that anyone who says from the Government Benches that our troops have a role to play in keeping peace around the world is saying that we are a war party. I do not believe that we are a war party. I do not believe that the use of British troops in support of peacekeeping operations is in any way an act of belligerence. In the context of the Caribbean, this is a course which we should be prepared to contemplate. If we were to contemplate it, albeit belatedly, that would earn this country greater respect among many of our friends.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Despite the failure of the lighting, I am afraid there is no way in which we can have injury time for this debate. Does the hon. Member for Bow and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) require the lights for his speech?
  6.38 pm
  Mr. Ian Mikardo: No, thank you, Sir.
  Like the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) and the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) I should like to add my thanks to the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson) for what I thought was one of the best of the many maiden speeches I have heard in the House. I have a fellow feeling with him because, although the debate has now consumed more than half the time available, he and I so far are the only contributors who are not either Privy Councillors or former Ministers. I hope this means that as of now the common or garden Back Bencher will have a chance of speaking.
  No doubt the hon. Member for Woking struck a chord of support in many of us when he told the House of his desire when he went to the Foreign Office to find, if I may paraphrase what he said, an established body of principle against which the Foreign Office ought to reference its policies and its actions. Perhaps he did not notice that that is in sharp contrast with a sentence that the Foreign Secretary threw in almost as an aside—perhaps I should say as a laid-back effort—during his speech. He said that he would find it difficult to relate any of the policies or actions that he discussed to any established body of principle. I might be a bit old-fashioned, but I believe that everyone should relate his actions to an established body of principle, especially when he carries high responsibility. The most important principle for all of those who are engaged in international relations on behalf of this or any other country is that, when considering the merit or demerit of action that is taken in different parts of the world, they should not apply or accept double standards. I am worried that many of the Government's attitudes, including that to the United States' invasion of Grenada, show an acceptance or application of double standards.
  The Foreign Secretary reminded us of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Almost every right hon. and hon. Member strongly condemned that invasion. However, the United States invasion of Grenada is a mirror image of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Resemblances between the two are almost uncanny. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If Conservative Members are patient I shall try to present some evidence. There are no fewer than five resemblances between the two operations.
  First, the real reason for the invasion of Afghanistan was not that given by the Soviet Uion. Its real reason was
  1046
  its desire to ensure that Afghanistan was run by a puppet or compliant Government. The real reason for the United States' invasion of Grenada was to ensure the existence of a compliant and acceptable Government, if not one which was the puppet of Washington.
  The second remarkable resemblance is that, before invading Afghanistan, the Soviet Union did not bother to find out what its allies felt about such an invasion. Nor did the United States bother to find out what its allies felt about an invasion of Grenada.
  The third uncanny resemblance is that the Soviet Union went into Afghanistan because, we were told, it was invited by the authorities there. None of us believed that any more than we believe that the moon is made of green cheese. The United States says that it went into Grenada because it was invited. Anyone who believes that that invitation was spontaneous and not inspired — if not actually drafted — by the invitee must be as green as grass.
  The fourth resemblance is that the Soviet Union went into Afghanistan on the ground that there was a threat in its back yard. After changing its mind several times, the United States says that it went into Grenada as there was a threat in its back yard.
  The Americans regard Grenada as being in their back yard although it is a tiny little island that is separated from the United States by a vast expanse of sea. Afghanistan shares a border with the Soviet Union. It is most certainly in the Soviet Union's back yard. What was the threat in the Americans' back yard? We are told that the Grenadians were building an airbase which could be used for military purposes. I do not know how many hon. Members have read the statement which the Plessey Company issued yesterday. It has been doing much of the work there. Plessey is scarcely a spokesman for the Kremlin.
  The company described in great detail what work it has been doing and the type of base that is being made. It says that the base has exactly the same characteristics as four or five civil airports in other parts of the Caribbean. Moreover, Plessey listed about 12 things which would be required in any military airport, none of which is being installed in Grenada. Therefore, on the evidence provided by the chaps who are building the airbase, the American allegation that the airbase posed a threat in their back yard is revealed to be complete nonsense.
  Use of the threat in the back yard as an excuse to send soldiers anywhere can create dangerous precedents. Turkey is part of the Soviet Union's back yard, as the two countries share a boundary. The Americans found stores of automatic rifles in Grenada and say that their existence proved that someone would attack Washington with them. It is not necessary to look far to discover nuclear warheads in Turkey which are aimed at Soviet cities. Will their existence give the Soviet Union a reason for invading Turkey? Surely we would not accept that. The similarities that I have mentioned cannot be wished away.
  Mr. Peter Tapsell: I do not have time to refute the four resemblances which the hon. Gentleman has drawn. They are all fallacious but the first is fundamental. He said that the Soviet Union went into Afghanistan because it wanted that country to be run by a subservient Government. I visited Afghanistan shortly before the Russian invasion and talked to Noor Mohammed Taraki who was President at the time. He was a thorough-going Communist and Marxist and told me so.

  1047
  Therefore, the Soviets already had a subservient Government before he was murdered and before they invaded Afghanistan. The hon. Gentleman's comparisons between Afghanistan and Grenada are utterly false.
  Mr. Mikardo: The hon. Gentleman has made my case for me. Nevertheless, there can be no doubt that the Soviet Union was not satisfied with the Afghanistan Government and invaded to install one that was satisfactory. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reinforcing my case. I only regret that I shall not have time to give way to him again.
  The fifth close resemblance between the two invasions is that in both cases the invaders kept the press out for as long as possible so that they could establish their own untrue version of events before the press could get the truth out. Most right hon. and hon. Members will have read the feature in The Observer last Sunday headed "Why Washington lied". It was a well-researched and well-documented piece, and there can be no doubt from it that Washington lied and that the American Government kept the press out of Grenada, just as the Russians kept the press out of Afghanistan, so that their lies would not be exposed.
  I thought that the hon. Member for East Lindsey (Mr. Tapsell) was going to draw the distinction that has been made between the two invasions, but he was not clever enough. Mrs. Jeane Kirkpatrick made that distinction when she said that the two cases could not be compared because the Russians intended to stay in Afghanistan and the Americans to leave Grenada. The fact is that the Russians will stay in Afghanistan until they have set up a Government there that they like and believe will be completely secure when they leave. It has taken them longer than they expected. They have bitten off far more than they expected to chew. The Americans are leaving Grenada because they are satisfied that they have established the conditions for a puppet or complaisant Government which will remain in power.
  The Foreign Secretary referred to the Falklands in the context of Grenada, as have other right hon. and hon. Members. If we did not apply double standards in our attitudes to other parts of the world, we would argue that when Argentina invaded the Falklands we sent a task force because a foreign power had invaded a Commonwealth territory and, therefore, we should send a task force to Grenada. When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, the Prime Minister said that British athletes should not go to the Moscow Olympics. The United States invaded Grenada without justification under international law, the rules of the United Nations, or the rules of the Organisation of American States, but the Prime Minister has not yet said that British athletes should not go to the Los Angeles Olympics. Those are the questions that arise when one considers double standards.
  Events in Grenada and in Lebanon have been linked during tonight's debate, although I am not sure how valid that is. Many people apply double standards concerning Lebanon. Recently, I received a questionnaire about Lebanon—it may have been sent to all right hon. and hon. Members — distributed by an hon. Member on behalf of a lobbying organisation. The first question was whether the Israeli army should withdraw from Lebanon. However, there was no question about whether the Syrian army should withdraw from Lebanon. Nor did it ask whether the Iranian troops there should withdraw. Iran has a war of its own and I cannot imagine what Iranian troops
  1048
  are doing in Lebanon instead of defending their own country. There was no question whether Libyan troops should withdraw from the Lebanon.
  Mr. Tapsell: They should all get out.
  Mr. Mikardo: That was my answer to the question. The Israeli, Syrian, Iranian, Libyan, Palestinian and all other troops should leave Lebanon. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman agrees with me. My point was that we were not asked about that, but only whether the Israeli troops should withdraw.
  The Syrians justify their presence in Lebanon by saying that they came by invitation, as they did. They were invited to help in the peacekeeping process, and so they did for a little while. Since then all their efforts have been directed to destabilising the country.
  There are few people in Lebanon who believe that Syria was not at the back of the blowing up of the United States embassy, and there are few people in Lebanon who believe that Syria was not at the back of the recent attacks on the French paratroopers and the United States marines. We know that Syria is at the back of the civil war in Al Fatah. The only fighting that is going on in Lebanon today as we conduct our debate is continuing in Tripoli between two sections of Al Fatah—those who support Mr. Arafat and those who are bankrolled, armed and actively supported with troops in the field by the Government of Syria.
  Why does not someone say that the Syrians should leave Lebanon? In fomenting the civil war within Al Fatah, the Syrians have ruined the claims of the PLO that, as the chosen representative of the Palestinians, it should take part in negotiations about a settlement in that area. There have been previous difficulties about that, especially as the PLO has always said that it does not wish to take part in negotiations. It said that in response to the Venice agreement which Lord Carrington negotiated with great difficulty and produced with such a fanfare of trumpets. The declaration said that the PLO should be brought into the negotiations, and Lord Carrington expected the Israelis to be angry and the PLO to kiss him on both cheeks. However, the Israelis rejected it, and the PLO rejected it even more strongly. Its representatives said: "We do not want your Christmas pudding. We do not believe in negotiations. We believe that our problems will be settled by force and out of the barrel of a gun."
  Mr. Ernie Ross: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Mikardo: No.
  Mr. Ross: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Bow and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) is not giving way, and I am sure that he will bear in mind the fact that many hon. Members wish to speak in the debate.
  Mr. Mikardo: That was exactly what I had in mind, Mr. Speaker. I know what my hon. Friend is going to ask, and I shall answer him privately when we leave the Chamber this evening.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) said that there was a necessity for Europe to speak with one voice. It spoke with one voice in the Venice declaration, but that was the most outstanding failure of a political initiative for as far back as I can remember. The proposal was rejected completely.

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  Mr. Arafat said today that Syrian and Libyan troops are shooting at him. The civil war is bound to cause people to ask, if we believe that the PLO should be brought into the negotiations, whether it should be Mr. Arafat's PLO or the anti-Arafat PLO. They say that they are the chosen representatives of their people, but who chose them? When was the election? Who was the electorate and who were the candidates? The Syrian influence in the Lebanon has been completely mischievous and we have not paid enough attention to it.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) made a superb speech today, but he made a mistake when he referred to the historic interests of Syria in Lebanon. The only historic interest that Syria has in Lebanon is that Syria conquered Lebanon and colonised it. The French have the same historic interest, and the Turks have an even longer historic interest because Lebanon was part of the Ottoman empire for much longer than it was part of greater Syria. The real menace in the middle east, perhaps second only to that of the Ayatollah Khomeini, is the fact that Syria has never abandoned the dream of recreating greater Syria, which included Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. When King Hussein of Jordan has a sleepless night and lies there tossing and turning, he is worrying not about the wicked Israelis but about the Syrians. He knows that the real threat to him is the dream of a greater Syria.
  People never think about that fundamental part of the problem of a middle east settlement. They oversimplify the problem by thinking in terms only of Israeli-Arab conflict. In fact, the inter-Arab conflicts are much more dangerous, partly because some of them are inspired by religion. Not only are Moslems set against Christians, but Moslem is set against Moslem. There are more than two different groups of Moslems who treat each other with the same brotherly love as some of the Christians in Ulster. [Interruption.] Conservative Members should not laugh at that. Throughout history, religious differences have caused more bloodshed than almost any others. The rivalry between Shi'a and Sunni represents a real danger. It is no joke. Even if the callow hon. Members around him do not know that, the right hon. and learned Gentleman ought to know it. He should not laugh.
  I shall end as I began. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, no."] These little minor public schoolboys with their little games are a poor lot. This is a schoolboy humour.
  Whatever action we take in any part of the world, we ought to act with reference to a body of principle. We ought to ask ourselves whether, in taking that action, we are guilty of applying double standards. That is the litmus paper test of the decency and honour of any action that affects other peoples of the world.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. As the House knows, I have no authority to control the length of speeches. However, I would ask hon. Members to bear in mind the fact that many of their colleagues wish to take part in this debate. Although the digital clocks are out of order, the clocks at the end of the Table are still working.
  7.33 pm
  Mr. Stefan Terlezki: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to speak for the first time in the House, with my Anglo-Ukrainian-Welsh accent.
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  I should like to tell the House something about the constituency of Cardiff, West which I am honoured, proud and privileged to represent. Cardiff, West and its people could perhaps be described as the United Nations on a smaller scale. There are the Welsh, the English, the Scots, the Irish, the Ukrainians, the Poles, the Pakistanis, the Africans, the West Indians, the Indians, the Italians, the Spanish, the Portuguese and people from many other parts of the old and the new Commonwealth. Strong community links have been forged with the ethnic minorities on a very amicable basis, and social, educational and cultural understanding is being promoted. I am proud that Cardiff, West can be looked upon as a model of good relationships between different people, and those people, too, are proud to be British.
  I am pleased to say that we have several colleges, high schools, and junior and infant schools, as well as a Church of England school, a Church of Wales school, Roman Catholic schools, nursery schools, and special and private schools. Again, those schools help pupils with different social and religious backgrounds to integrate into society and to be good citizens of Great Britain. There is some light industry in the constituency as well as hospitals, good shopping facilities and Cardiff City football club. Indeed, I was once privileged to be that club's chairman. Of course, there are also rugby clubs and quite a few political and non-political clubs. We also have the BBC and HTV studios in the constituency.
  I hope that you will allow me, Mr. Speaker, to use two words that have echoed through the House, throughout the land, and over the oceans and hills. They are "Order, Order". Those are the words of my predecessor, Mr. George Thomas, or "our George" as he is affectionately known. He is now, of course, Viscount Tonypandy and he certainly deserves that great honour. I have known him for many years, as my wife was born just a few miles up from Tonypandy. He and I have much in common, in relation to not only the Rhondda and Tonypandy, but the broad fabric of the social structure of our society.
  Mr. Thomas served the people in Cardiff, West exceptionally well for 38 years. Although I have no intention of following in his footsteps to the Speaker's Chair, I should certainly like to follow him in being as good a Member of Parliament for Cardiff, West as he was, and in being as much in touch with the people there as he has been in the past 38 years. He is a great and much-loved man. I greatly respect him, and am very happy to have paid him a great tribute in this great House.
  People matter a great deal to me, irrespective of their colour or background. We must all try to help, protect and respect one another, to be good citizens, to respect the law of the land and to be good patriots of this great country. People in many parts of the world have sought for centuries to copy our constitution and laws and so to guarantee their liberties. The antiquity and continuity of our political structure is a marvel to many. As a result of our ancestors' endeavours, our freedom and democracy are now second to none. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, but I have found the silver lining in reaching the Mother of Parliaments, the cradle of freedom and democracy. I am very proud to be here and to speak, knowing very well that I do so in freedom. If my father and my friends in the Ukraine knew that I was standing here and what I was saying, their tears would flow with joy.

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  The purpose of our foreign policy is to help, as we have done and continue to do, in many parts of the world, materially, culturally, educationally, politically, democratically and in many other ways, when possible. Soviet foreign policy exports Marxist ideology in great quantity—most of the time against the wishes of the people. Its aim is not to introduce freedom and democracy, but to suppress and eradicate them whenever possible. If one looks at where Marxism is preached and practised, one will have no illusion about which foreign policy serves its people best — Soviet or British. I have experienced feudalism, Marxism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism and, at the age of 15, a slave labour camp. I believe that I can justifiably claim that I know how to appreciate freedom and democracy.
  I knew nothing about British foreign policy or Britain's freedom and democracy until we were liberated by the British and the Americans in 1945. One may well ask: what about the Russian liberators? They liberated a part of Europe from its freedom, democracy and good living standards and they have put an iron curtain around it. Since 1945 people have been born and lived in open prisons. If people do not believe me, they should write to my friends and my father in the Ukraine. If they are allowed to tell us, they will.
  British foreign policy protects and defends Britain on all fronts — land, sea and in the air. Let us not be rhetorical and use a sea of words when we talk about defending Britain. Defending Britain means that what our fathers and grandfathers have fought and died for is worth defending and protecting, so that we, our children and our grandchildren will live in freedom without experiencing slavery, tyranny and oppression, as, regrettably, some of us had to.
  Communism is not interested in the flourishing of a country, the health and welfare of its people, freedom, political democracy, religion, culture or its history. Soviet imperialism has oppressed, abused and terrorised nations and has kept many in a political straitjacket in the name of Socialism, Marxism and Leninism.
  There are more than 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan. Where are the supporters for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and all other do-gooders? Why do they not protest and go to Moscow? Why do they not go to Leningrad, Warsaw, Prague, Budapest and Afghanistan and put their arms around the Russian militarism? We should remember that there are no unilateralists in the Kremlin.
  It is not a case of being better red than dead. The option is peace through deterrence and disarmament negotiations. In the Soviet Union, a person could be red and dead— and I know it. Ask the Ukrainians, the Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and Afghans the meaning of tyranny, barbarism and oppression, which are so brutally executed by the Soviet Marxist regime. If people in this great country of ours believe that the grass is greener in the Soviet Union, let them go there and find out for themselves.
  Mr. Tony Banks: They are not as stupid as the hon. Member.
  Mr. Terlezki: There are apparatchiks and apologists for the Soviet Union, who would dearly like the Government to disarm the Army, sink the Navy, ditch the
  1052
  Air Force, and the Utopian state would be complete. That will hot happen. The vast majority of the British people are too resilient to fall for that. Of course we must negotiate with the Soviets. Let us compromise if need be, but only when the compromise is on equal and realistic terms, without cheating.
  The Pope speaks for peace, about multilateral, not unilateral, disarmament and about a reduction of nuclear and conventional weapons. Where are the Christians in the CND? Why do they not listen and follow their leader? I do. They are misleading the public, especially the young generation who grew up in peace, protected by military strength. Let us negotiate not only for a reduction of military arsenals, but for their dismantling. Let us negotiate for the zero option. Let the Soviets make ploughs and tractors out of their military hardware so that they can plough the fields, sow the corn and reap the harvest to feed their people.
  Mr. Andropov said that when it comes to unilateral disarmament the Soviet people are not naive. I say to Mr. Andropov that nor are the British. The British spirit of freedom is too strong and too resilient to be crushed by the tanks of tyrants. My regret is that some of the British who were born here take democracy for granted and play directly into the hands of our potential enemies.
  I am proud to be British and free to speak without fear, to worship God in my own way, to stand up for what I believe to be right and to oppose what I believe to be wrong and to choose who shall govern my country. I pledge to uphold this heritage of freedom for me, Britain, the oppressed nations and all mankind.
  7.18 pm
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Terlezki) has had a more vivid experience than most who make their maiden speeches of what awaits him when he seeks to address the House in subsequent debates, for he was kept waiting for considerably longer than is usually the lot of maiden speakers.
  I do not wish to stand unnecessarily between the House and other hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate, but they will not begrudge me a moment, as one who in his former constituency had numerous and valuable Ukrainian constituents, to say to the hon. Member that we are interested to see in a new incarnation the constituency which was represented by our Speaker, and hope that he will achieve his ambitions in the place at which he has travelled so far to arrive.
  One of the disadvantages of a general debate on foreign affairs on the motion for the Adjournment is that the debate swings to and fro between one subject and another and the opportunity to bring the Government to explanation and answer on any one topic is difficult to attain. I feel sometimes it is a pity that the Opposition fail to put on the Order Paper a motion which might concentrate such a debate as this.
  I want to direct what I have to say to one question only, which—it does no credit to the House—has riot been debated during the 10 months that 100 British service men have been serving in the Lebanon. It took the deaths of 300 young men for that question to be taken seriously and for the reason why our troops are there to be asked in the House or outside.

  1053
  I want to put two points. First, I should like clarification of the exact status and position of those 100 British troops in the Lebanon. I should then like to consider the practical purpose and justification of their presence.
  If I am correct, it is the exchange of notes reproduced in Cmnd. 8823 which is the basis of the presence of that force in the Lebanon. The exchange of notes delineates the purpose of the multinational force; but then it goes on curiously to say:
  "The British Military Force shall carry out such tasks as may be agreed between the United Kingdom and Lebanese Governments, consistent with the Mandate of the MNF"
  I find it difficult to read that exchange of notes and not come to the conclusion—indeed it is a conclusion which I welcome if it is correct — that our troops in the Lebanon are not part of the multinational force, but are in that country under a separate agreement between this country and the Government of the Lebanon.
  Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd: I am looking at the top of the document from which the right hon. Gentleman is reading. It says:
  "Exchange of notes between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the Lebanese Republic concerning the Deployment of a British Contingent for the Multi-National Force in Lebanon."
  Mr. Powell: I am well aware of that, but frequently a title, as newspaper readers will be aware, does not correspond with the content.
  It appears to me that these documents were carefully drawn and that we ought to understand clearly the "tasks" which have been "agreed" between our Government and the Government of the Lebanon for our troops in that place.
  Their purpose there has been variously explained and justified. We were told by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon that the multinational force—for this purpose perhaps we could regard the tasks of the British troops as not necessarily distinct — was to help to support the Lebanese Government and to enable the Lebanese Government to procure reconciliation in that country because, as the Foreign Secretary said,
  "Outsiders can help create the right environment".
  I believe that all experience is at variance with that purpose, that it is contrary to all experience that lasting stability in a country such as Lebanon is likely to be brought about and maintained by the introduction of foreign armed forces. Consequently, there is an inescapable contradiction between the professed purpose and the likelihood of that purpose succeeding. But if that is the purpose of the relatively large American force and the French contingent, what have we to say about the presence of 100 British troops? However high may be our estimation of their value, however great our pride in their prowess, what contribution do 100 troops make to the exalted purpose of the multinational force which has been set before us?
  We are told that our troops are impartial in circumstances in which an impartial presence is desirable; but that is in contradiction with the terms upon which they are there. They are there to be on the side of the Lebanese Government to carry out the tasks which have been agreed with the Lebanese Government.
  There is only one purpose which can be served, only one explanation that can be given, for 100 British troops
  1054
  —no less, no more—being stationed in the Lebanon. They are there as a token. In the game of four-handed whist—the Americans, the Italians, the French and the British—the British are playing dummy; and those least friendly to the Foreign Secretary might say that was a role for which he is endowed by nature and by training.
  But if we are to play dummy, if we are in the Lebanon to be a token, what support is that token intended to convey? What is the policy? What are the conceptions, what are the intentions, for which Britain is betokening support?
  The United States' President recently referred to the Lebanon as an area of American vital interest. That would be an astonishing statement, if we were not so used to the lighthearted use of terms such as "vital interest". After all, the Lebanon is separated from the United States by the width of the Atlantic ocean and the Mediterranean sea. What therefore, we might inquire, can be the vital, the life-concerning interest, of the United States in the state of affairs in Lebanon? The answer comes quickly: "To keep out the Russians." It is assumed that, were there not such a force in the Lebanon, were the Americans not involved in the Lebanon, then before you, Mr. Speaker, could say, "Order, order," we should find the Russians in Tyre and Sidon.
  That is hallucination. That is the world picture with which, apparently, the American state and those who implement its policies appear to live. It is indeed the sort of contention which it is difficult to demolish with full, logical cogency, because there is always the possibility of saying that "The Russians are not in this or that place simply because they have been prevented by American policy." It is the old, tired story of the man who threw bits of The Times out of the railway carriage window to keep away the elephants, and claimed that his success was proved by the absence of elephants. It is so easy to say in one theatre after another—whether it be the Caribbean or the middle east—that it is the hand of America, the forces of America and her allies which prevent Russia filling what otherwise is represented as a vacuum.
  I do not believe that we are so destitute of the means of arriving at an assessment of probability in this matter. I remember that 20 years ago there was a common metaphor in use. It was the domino metaphor. When the United States poured its forces into Vietnam, and when we in this country were urged—indeed, we came within a whisker of falling into the trap of taking that advice—to put a token force into that country in support of the United States, we were always told, "It is a question of dominoes. If Vietnam goes Communist, then Thailand goes Communist. If Thailand goes Communist, Malaysia is lost. If Malaysia is lost, Indonesia is lost."
  It may seem strange and unfamiliar to hon. Members today to be reminded of that absurd notion. If so, it is only because experience and events have proved how absurd it was. No more conclusively could the United States have been defeated, more firmly could Communism—if that is what it is — have been installed than happened in Vietnam. The purposes for which the Americans fought, the purposes which they regarded as vital to themselves in Saigon were lost irrevocably. They were lost; but nothing happened. None of the dominoes fell; and south-east Asia has retained its principal features virtually unchanged since the American catastrophe.
  If we were not involved in the Lebanon — if that American policy for which we are providing token support

  1055
  were not being carried out there — no doubt Russia would seek what is called influence over the state which would emerge and the Government which would be formed in that territory. But she would be much too wise —her performance in the past is the evidence for this—to seek physically to occupy that territory.
  So we pursue a chimera. Attached to the United States and its philosophy, we place ourselves at the service of a wholly unrealistic view of the world and in particular of the middle east. Some may say: It is just a token, so why worry? It is no token for those 100 men of ours who are in the Lebanon. This House does not have the right to demand from its service men the risk of life and limb in the service of a policy and of purposes which are inherently insustainable and which in that context this House has never debated or approved. We should bring our men back from the Lebanon. They had no business to be sent there in the first place.
  7.32 pm
  Sir Frederic Bennett: In view of your admonition to be brief, Mr. Speaker, I shall resist the temptation to comment on the speech of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) which, as always, I shall find easier to unravel the day after it is made, when I read it in Hansard tomorrow, than I do when listening to it. As the right hon. Gentleman's arguments unfold not all of them, put together, appear to be completely logical.
  I wish at the outset to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr.Terlezki) on his maiden speech. It was controversial and aroused some ire on the Opposition Benches, although it drew virtually unanimous applause from the Conservative Benches. I warn him that in future he will have to put up with a less conciliatory reaction from Labour Members than he enjoyed today as I have often had to do.
  He mentioned his joint Ukranian ancestry to me a few evenings ago. I was not surprised by what he told me, because I have been concerned with the Free Ukranian movement since the last war. He is just the type of person we need in our midst, a man who knows from actual suffering exactly what living under the Soviet system implies. There is no need for him to read books or for us to advise him to read books on that subject. Our numbers have been strengthened by having with us someone who, it cannot be denied, has personal knowledge of the sort he described in his speech and which he mentioned to me in greater detail the other evening. I wish him luck in his various national garbs and loyalties.
  We listened to a typical speech from the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who I regret is temporarily not in his place. It was rather more muted than the speech he made last week; all the awful things that he presaged would follow from the American Caribbean intervention do not seem to be happening. The fact that his seat in the shadow Cabinet is now secure may have contributed to a quieter speech from him today.
  There was no more talk from the right hon. Gentleman of a long guerrilla war waged from the mountains by indignant Grenadians with the help of construction workers from the airport which has allegedly been built for peaceful purposes. I was interested as I listened to the right hon. Gentleman last week to be instructed that the airfield was intended not for warlike but for peaceful purposes. I wondered how those Cuban construction engineers who
  1056
  were taking part in such a peaceful project would be able to carry out a successful guerrilla campaign in the mountains, using their picks, shovels and cement mixers.
  At the end of his speech my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) indulged in a mild reproof of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East. Considering how the right hon. Member for Leeds, East enjoys the reputation of being a political bully-boy who hurls insults at anybody and everybody, it was surprising to hear him express indignation when for once he received some of that treatment from the Conservative Benches. He seemed to adopt an attitude of pained indignation—that anyone should dare to be rude to him—when he should be the last to complain at such treatment.
  Sir Paul Scoon, a distinguished individual, has not received a fair hearing from certain people in this House and outside and, being myself admittedly a not important constitutional lawyer, I believe that certain things should be put right. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East seemed to adopt an almost neo-colonial role as he spoke about what the Governor-General should or should not have done, the right hon. Gentleman having previously said that he had no responsibilities to the British Government, which of course he did not.
  Constitutionally, in the absence of the Queen, Sir Paul was, and remains, the Head of State of Grenada. Except when the Queen is on the island, he is the Head of State and has the rights and constitutional duties reserved to him under the constitution, which was gifted to Grenada by Britain. Normally a governor-general exercising those responsibilities has the advantage of acting on the advice of his Ministers. It was difficult for him to do that when his Ministers had been murdered. Under those circumstances he had little or no option but to seek in some way to save his country.
  Mr. Tony Banks rose——
  Sir Frederic Bennett: I shall not give way. Mr. Speaker has appealed to us to make short speeches and not to give way and I propose to abide by that so as to allow time for others to speak.
  Considering the duties that he had to carry out, Sir Paul was a man in a desperate position and undoubtedly he was constitutionally right to approach his neighbours in the Organisation of Eastern Caribbean States for their help, and they in turn, if they so wished—as sovereign states, not as neo-colonial states—were entitled to appeal to any country to help protect their security. I regret that they did not come to us. On balance, they probably did the right thing, because, whatever our response would have been, we were not in a position to make the rapid reaction that was needed.
  It is only a week since we were told—we even heard it today from the hon. Member for Bow and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) — that there was a parallel between Afghanistan and Grenada. I do not remember many newspaper articles commenting on how the newsmen had been welcomed by the Afghans or on how wonderful it was that the Soviets had arrived. In Grenada, not even the most violent critics of American action were able to deny that the overwhelming response of the Grenadian public was to say, "Thank God you came with your friends and rescued us." So to compare that situation with Afghanistan is not only ludicrous, but mischievous in the extreme, because it does not relate to the facts.

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  I shall concentrate my few remaining remarks about the Caribbean on the future. There has already been too much discussion about where a telegram went, who should have consulted whom, why someone should have consulted someone else, and whether we were right in voting, abstaining or doing otherwise in the United Nations. I believe that the Grenadians would like us to concentrate together on the future, and ensure that their country can return to economic, social and political stability. In my view, we are in the process of doing that.
  I have a feeling that in six months' time, unless something goes very wrong, it will be hard for critics of Barbados, Jamaica, St. Lucia, the United States and the other countries that came to the aid of Grenada to make nasty remarks about what has happened in Grenada, when they see how the people will be living then, compared with the time when they were on the verge of being taken over as a satellite state of the Soviet Union through the medium of Cuba. That is the course on which they were set. The course was fortunately reversed, and the people of Grenada have been given the chance to regain the democratic constitution which I am confident will be to their benefit.
  I shall say only one word about the middle east.
  Mr. Frank Cook: Only one?
  Sir Frederic Bennett: It does not help to interrupt. It merely prolongs the agony of Labour Members who do not want to listen.
  In my opinion, we cannot sustain for long the purpose of keeping forces in the middle east. Here I agree with the right hon. Member for Down, South—not for all the reasons that he gave, but because I believe that the forces are not performing any useful function. They are keeping peace only in the sense that it is less likely that Syria and Israel will engage in open hostilities while they are there. In so far as they are trying to create a peaceful environment for people to conduct successful negotiations, I suspect that they have a negative, not positive, role.
  If the current series of negotiations fails, I hope that we shall go back to the original and only way of resolving the crisis—the Americans can do this more than anyone else—which is to ensure that all—I repeat all—foreign forces leave the Lebanon and that all forms of persuasion are used to get the Israelis, Syrians and anyone else to get out of that country and leave it to try to resolve its problems. Finally, one cannot leave on one side the problem that if the Palestinians are made to go—that may well be a necessary part of the solution to the problem —they will have to go somewhere. There is only one place where I think that they should be allowed to go, and that is where they came from and where they were driven from—their homes on the West Bank.
  7.44 pm
  Dame Judith Hart: I shall try to be brief. I want to concentrate mainly on the events in the Caribbean and the perspective that stretches ahead now.
  I begin with a couple of minor footnotes. The hon. Member for Torbay (Sir F. Bennett) cast doubts on whether the airport in Grenada was for tourist purposes. He revived the American canard that it was a military airport which therefore could constitute a threat to the Americans in Washington. That was one of the underlying
  1058
  currents that seemed to be a motivation for the American invasion of Grenada. Of course, there are the Plessey comments, but when I was going through some of my papers this morning — in case hon. Members are interested, I shall put the document in the Library for a while—I came across a record of the proceedings of an aid donors meeting held in Brussels at the ACP House on 14 and 15 April 1981. It is about the international airport project in Grenada. It consists of a detailed analysis of the tourist potential, the economics of the tourist increase that was likely to result from the airport, tables about hotel occupancy, tax revenues, and so on, plus a brief account and comment by a French consultant who had been engaged by the European development fund as part of the exercise. It is of some interest in dispelling any view that the airport had been intended as a military airport. However, that is merely a footnote.
  The House may recall that around 1977–78, when President Carter was at the White Houe, he and his wife became extremely interested in Latin American countries and countries in central America and the Caribbean. Mrs. Rosalynn Carter paid two well publicised visits—one to Brazil and one to Jamaica—and there was a general Carter Administration enthusiasm for doing something about the area.
  That enthusiasm resulted in a proposal which emanated from the World Bank, but had been prompted by Washington, for a conference of all the major donors to countries and states in that part of the world, ranging from large ones such as Trinidad and Guyana on the one hand to the eastern Caribbean small states on the other, with European Community representatives, Canada, Japan, United States, ourselves, Venezuela, and so on. The conference was to examine how there might be a coordinated approach so as to assist some of the development problems in the Caribbean basin, and in that sense give greater political stability to the states and islands.
  I mention that, because little was known about that conference in this country. It was hardly reported. It was one of those international conferences that pass without comment. In fact, it was an extremely successful conference. The American enthusiasm had waned. I remember that Mr. Andy Young was the main American representative, and the American keenness to put a lot of money into the enterprise had cooled.
  However, there were those of us, and I admit that I was one, who insisted that the conference should be a success. Those of us who shared my view — countries like Barbados, Jamaica and Venezuela were among those who were ready to twist the arm of the World Bank and the Americans—said that we must make a success of the conference. It was agreed that a target would be set. I have not looked up my figures, but from memory I think that the target figure was about $150 million. Studies were to be made of the precise needs of the various countries that need assistance. That led to a further conference, which took place shortly before the general election. At that time we had not hit the targets, but we had done very well. I think that about $120 million had come from the various donor countries.
  However, it was interesting that the whole political ethos of that conference began to develop because it became so evident that it was feasible, possible and would be good for the member states of the Caribbean, and particularly the eastern Caribbean, to look at the countries of central and northern Latin America rather than directly

  1059
  towards Washington or even Canada. The Caribbean countries could then see themselves in stable company with countries such as Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico and so on.
  The initiative was building up. Venezuela was considering putting considerable finance into transport for the eastern Caribbean states, which they desperately needed to get their produce to the markets, Venezuela and Mexico were to introduce concessionary oil prices together with low interest loans because most of the islands were oil-dependent. Something rather special was beginning to develop which could only have been good as it was a move away from the American back yard idea.
  Washington does not need to regard as hostile every country that is not completely identified with every aspect of its foreign policy. Washington should be and can be content with countries that are non-aligned and independent in their approach to foreign policy. It might be more comfortable for Washington if it could always count on the votes of these countries in the General Assembly, but that will not desperately concern Washington. If Washington had a group of countries that were not far from the United States, were non-aligned and were working together, that would be preferable to the risks of intervention that go along with regarding a whole area of the world as one's backyard. That is the dangerous principle.
  I am happy that in this debate most of the hon. Members who have spoken have reinforced the view that came so clearly from the Prime Minister on Sunday in her radio broadcast, that the invasion of Grenada is opposed to international law and not something of which we would ever approve. I am glad that that, in general, has been supported in the House today, with only one or two exceptions.
  We are now bound to ask, as everybody is asking— what will be the future of Nicaragua? Is the principle of invasion and intervention because a country is in another country's back yard to be carried through there? Were that to happen, what would be the consequences? The greatest significance and danger of what Washington has done on this occasion in flouting and raping this principle, which has been well established and respected, is greatly to increase the risks of a conflagration that could escalate into something serious.
  The hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) was a Minister in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and he talked about the need to organise some defence for the states in the Caribbean. I remind the House that when we talk of the Caribbean states that were so much in support of the American intervention we are talking only of very small states of the size of Grenada, which are relatively non-viable. We all know that Seaga is very much in Washington's pocket—he is another Reagan. We know also that the substantial Commonwealth states of the Caribbean were opposed to what happened in Grenada. Trinidad and Tobago, Belize, the Bahamas and Guyana, the substantial and historically more well-established states have been clear in their opposition. Therefore, we cannot talk of the countries of the Caribbean supporting the invasion.
  It is no good to quote Jamaica, because, such is their relationship, for Seaga read Reagan. Reagan gave great assistance to Seaga in getting rid of Michael Manley— as did the International Monetary Fund. If one reads what Seaga said before, during and after the election in Jamaica,
  1060
  one sees that he was most welcoming to President Reagan's proposals for private investment, less public investment and so on. That is why Jamaica took the point of view that it did. It would not have taken that view if Mr. Seaga had not been Prime Minister.
  The House will know of my experience next door to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and it is interesting to examine the trend of thinking in it. There is no doubt that if we were to ask what its priorities are it would say first, the Atlantic Alliance, secondly Europe and the EEC and thirdly, if it happened to think of it, the Commonwealth. For most of the officials that would certainly be the order of priorities.
  The circumstances in the Caribbean offer a tremendous opportunity for us as equal members of the Commonwealth, with our historical responsibility and relationship with the Caribbean countries, to offer a chance to those states to come out of America's back yard and do something of their own—stand on their own feet along with the COMACORA states of central America and northern Latin America. There is an opportunity for a new alliance there.
  There is no need to build up defence forces. After all, the only need for defence forces would be to keep an American invasion out. There is no need to keep out an invasion by anybody else, and, if something happens inside those countries, the general, established international law is that one does not intervene. Thus, there is an opportunity in the Caribbean that involves a complete turn-round in the attitude towards aid and the amount we spend on aid in those countries. In the Caribbean politics, development is the name of the game — politics is development and development is politics.
  In a written answer I received some figures on aid to Grenada. In 1982, we spent one quarter of the amount that we had spent there in 1978. Is it any wonder that Grenada needed to look elsewhere? If a country is desperate for development it will have to have aid from somebody. The same thing happened in Mozambique. I was repeatedly attacked by the Conservative party when my Government were providing aid to Mozambique. I am happy to say that the President of that country visited London the other day. A poor underdeveloped country that needs help will go somewhere else if that money is not provided by the West.
  There is an opportunity, which I hope will be considered and taken, to take this area out of America's back yard, build it up and give it the support it will need within the Commonwealth in association and alliance with Venezuela, Mexico and Colombia. That is the other option, and I believe that it is the one that the Caribbean states would most prefer.
  Mr. Peter Shore: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I first apologise to the House for interrupting this important debate, but there has been a serious power failure in the Palace of Westminster and it would be for the convenience of the House if we could have a statement about it from the Leader of the House.
  The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Biffen): Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand from the resident engineer that a cable failure occurred, but I am assured that the present level of lighting can be maintained. Only one Committee is still sitting, and that has adjourned until 9.30

  1061
  pm. I am also assured that the existing level of lighting can be maintained for that Committee for as long as it wishes to sit. I understand that catering facilities are available.
  Mr. Shore: I am sure that the House would wish to thank the Leader of the House for that statement. It is a matter of some importance when we have a power failure of this nature in the House of Commons. Proceedings were interrupted in the Chamber at around 6 pm and in many other parts of the building where Committees were meeting and where people were assembling for various purposes.
  The House will be pleased to know that, despite the power failure, our major business has been able to continue in the Chamber and in the Committee. Will the Leader of the House throw a little more light on the position and tell us when the lighting system will be fully restored? We have further proceedings tomorrow. Will he do his best to ensure that in future those responsible for the Palace of Westminster take adequate safeguards to avoid such interruptions in our proceedings?
  Mr. Biffen: I am sure that those concerned will be very much disposed to ensure that the supply is made available as early as possible and on as dependable a basis as possible. I can give no specific undertakings about when the full supply will be resumed, but I very much hope that the business of the House tomorrow will not be unduly impeded.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Paul Dean): After that interlude, may I remind the House that many hon. Members on both sides of the House hope to speak in this important debate. It will help us all if speeches are brief.
  8.2 pm
  Sir Philip Goodhart: I agree with the right hon. Member for Clydesdale (Dame Judith Hart) that development and aid are important, particularly in the Caribbean, as my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) said. There can be no proper economic development if there is no security. In the past 20 years successive Governments—Conservative and Labour— have given full independence to nearly 20 mini-states, some with a population of fewer than 100,000, which could not make adequate provision for their own defence. Indeed, it is probably not desirable that they should attempt to make proper and adequate provision for their defence. They do not have the resources at hand and there are better uses for those resources.
  The absence of adequate defence resources means that these mini-states are almost as vulnerable as airliners to the risk of hijacking. I am delighted that earlier in the debate my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary picked up a phrase that I had used. In some cases independent states have been hijacked by tiny bands of armed men, not much larger than the gang that carried out the great train robbery.
  I note that my noble Friend Lord Home, in a speech two days ago, referred to his positive response to a request for military help after a mutiny in Tanganyika within days of that country becoming independent. He did not remind us that almost at the same time the neighbouring island of Zanzibar was seized by a force later estimated to be of platoon strength. We did not intervene there and some
  1062
  hundreds of Indians and Arabs were subsequently butchered. I note that at that time the Krays and the Richardsons, two gangster overlords who have some family connection with my constituency, could deploy on the streets of London more armed men than were needed for the takeover of Zanzibar.
  Within the past six years we have seen the Governments in Grenada and the Seychelles overthrown by armed bands also not much larger than a Regular Army platoon. In Gambia, two and a half years ago, a semi-mutiny, semi-coup by the paramilitary police was checked by the fortuitous presence of a couple of SAS men, followed by the massive intervention of the Senegalese army. I do not recall that there was much agonised discussion between the Senegalese Prime Minister and Downing street before or after the Senegalese army invaded an independent Commonwealth country to restore order. The Prime Minister of Gambia then was safe and sound in London, attending the royal wedding. If the Zambian Prime Minister had been at home and been killed in the first uprising, I wonder whether we would have objected very much to that intervention. I doubt it.
  The largest single group of defenceless mini-states that we have created lies in the Caribbean. The first coup in Grenada in 1979 obviously caused ripples of alarm even though there was little respect or affection for Sir Eric Gairy, the deposed leader of Grenada. As we now know, the second coup, followed by the murder of Maurice Bishop and so many of his colleagues in the Grenadian Government, brought requests for action from the leaders of Antigua, Dominica, St. Lucia, St. Kitts Nevis — a country to which we had given full independence a few days before—Montserrat and St. Vincent; and it is now plain that their request was supported by the Governor-General of Grenada. His voice was not heard very plainly, but is that surprising? It was obviously difficult for him to leave Grenada, and if the leaders of the military coup had known that he was asking for intervention—however oblique that request might have been — he would obviously have been killed on the spot.
  The leaders of the Organisation of Eastern Caribbean States asked for intervention because they feared that the bloody coup in Grenada would encourage and enbolden potential revolutionaries in their own countries; and each country does have potential revolutionaries. But why did the eastern Caribbean leaders get in touch with America rather than us, and why did the Americans not bother to consult us more fully? The answer to both questions is, I suspect, the same. Both the Caribbean leaders and the Americans knew very well that, again under successive Governments, our Caribbean policy, in so far as we have had one at all, consisted of a desire to minimise commitments and not to get involved.
  In the 1950s and the early 1960s the British Government had encouraged, indeed imposed, the federation of the West Indies upon the islands. The federation was meant to provide an answer to the sort of security problem that has now arisen, but the federation foundered in the face of local apathy. Since then our main endeavours have been directed to diminishing those residual commitments that remain. Some see the granting of full independence to Grenada in 1974, under the emotional and erratic Sir Eric Gairy, as a cynical abdication of responsibility for the welfare of the inhabitants of that island.

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  During the Prime Minister's recent visit to Washington she made it plain to her American hosts—according to well-informed press reports—that we intended to scale down our commitment to the security of Belize as quickly as possible. The Caribbean leaders and the Americans had thus been fully warned within the past month that we were anxious to shed our last major military commitment in that area. Under those circumstances, it is hardly surprising that the Americans and the Caribbean leaders did not think that we would wish to play an active role—or, indeed, any role at all.
  What should happen now? This afternoon my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary laid down some sensible conditions for our participation in a Commonwealth team that may be needed in Grenada until free democratic elections can be held. I hope that those conditions can be met. Not to participate fully would be regarded as a continuation of the policy of querulousness that has sadly marked our response to the crisis so far.
  I was glad to see my right hon. and learned Friend this afternoon taking a much more robust stand than he has hitherto. When elections have been held in Grenada, the problems of the other mini-state will still be with us. The prompt arrival of the Americans and the multinational force may have checked the enthusiasm of revolutionaries in other mini-states, but the problem remains.
  The French generally sought to make limited defence agreements with their former colonies as they reached independence. Those agreements, at times, helped to prevent chaos. Are we now prepared to discuss limited security agreements with the Caribbean mini-states that are our partners in the Commonwealth? I was delighted to hear my right hon. and learned Friend say that he immediately intended to follow up that point with our friends in the Commonwealth. It need not be a large commitment. Obviously it should be an SAS-type of commitment, perhaps backed by a company of the Parachute Regiment, whose tie I am delighted to be wearing tonight.
  I am talking not about repelling a massive Cuban invasion, but about a mini-commitment to meet a mini-threat to a mini-state. Of course there are political problems. We do not want to find ourselves committed to the defence of leaders who themselves become harsh, repressive or just plain bonkers. But there could be a de facto understanding that any use of external security forces would be followed in a matter of weeks or months by a free election.
  Of course there are problems and difficulties, but if we do not learn the lessons of Grenada we will be faced with another outburst of violence in another part of the Caribbean. If we are not prepared to undertake that commitment, it is plain that many of our Caribbean Commonwealth partners will try to reach a similar agreement with the United States of America.
  I happen to think that we can handle problems with greater skill and finesse than the Americans provided that we turn our minds to them. But the mishandled events of the past fortnight must surely have taught us that we can no longer muddle along and that we need a Caribbean policy that can be understood by our Commonwealth partners, by our enemies, by our allies and, not least, by the Foreign Secretary's friends and supporters in the House.
  8.16 pm
  Mr. David Young: America's intervention in Grenada has been described as the action of a fireman. A better description would be the action of a ubiquitous instantaneous arsonist. Politicians who argue the right of a nation, because of its size and power, to intervene in the internal and private policies of another nation support not the propagation of freedom, but the insanity of megalomania.
  America's actions have been justified on the ground that they were welcomed in Grenada. When Germany invaded the Sudeten it was "flowers, flowers all the way". Some of us were in Dominica during the Falklands war. We spoke to people in the Caribbean who told us that they saw that war not as a conflict between Argentina and Britain, but as the invasion of a small island by a large power. They would be equally opposed to any invasion whether the aggressor was Venezuela, Cuba or the United States. They want the basic right and freedom to decide their own destiny.
  It is of great concern that an alien state, posing as an ally, has invaded an independent state within the Commonwealth without reference to this country. the head of the Commonwealth. What reliance can be placed on the assurances from the United States that they will consult us in future? That country has struck a blow against the independence of another country.
  It is a dangerous principle for anyone, under the guise of arguing for the freedom of man, to claim that that gives him a right to enslave other men. The criticisms that we make of Russia must apply equally to the United States. As a British Member of Parliament, I should not wish to live in the USSR—but nor would I wish to live in the United States. I am proud to live in Britain. I do not want Britain to be a satellite of either of those countries.
  The Government talk to the United States on behalf of the British people. We will be stationing nuclear weapons in Britain for the defence of America. But when a British Minister says that the women of Greenham common may be shot on behalf of the Americans, I do not think that we have much ground on which to criticise other nations. I ask the Government to stand up against their allies for Britain's interests and not simply to excuse and bolster up actions that are a clear and utter breach of international law.
  I and other hon. Members recently visited Cyprus and we were concerned that British troops had apparently been put there without a clear knowledge of their responsibilities and were in physical danger as a result of the position in which they were put. For right or wrong, many who have gone there as part of an allegedly peacekeeping force have appeared to be aligning with one side rather than remainng impartial. The duty of a peacekeeping force is to maintain peace, not to impose unilateral settlements. If at any time it were thought that the British forces might be in danger, I hope that we shall be told at the Dispatch Box whether a decision to provide air support which could escalate the conflict will be made at ministerial level or designated to local commanders on the spot as it has been in the past. To put in 97 men and then abrogate our responsibility by leaving the possible escalation of the conflict to local commanders is no way for the House to safeguard British lives. I hope that we shall not long be

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  denied a debate on the involvement of our forces in any further cases and I hope that such a debate will take place before and not after our forces become involved.
  8.23 pm
  Mr. Peter Temple-Morris: Much as I like and admire the hon. Member for Bolton, South-East (Mr. Young), in a debate such as this it does no one any good to spread alarm that has already been established as unnecessary about what may or may not happen in extreme events at Greenham common. I was somewhat surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman say in such adamant terms that he would not live in the United States. He is not without experience of the world. I should have no hesitation in living in the United States, although I should prefer to live here. If one were to contemplate odd aspects of our own history and take the hon. Gentleman's line we would walk out of this Chamber and out of Britain and I am sure that hon. Members have no intention of doing that.
  We have heard tonight two different but, in their own way, equally outstanding and impressive maiden speeches. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson) made an excellent speech. He has now left the Chamber for much needed succour and relief but I hope that he will soon be back at his place and I should like him to see my comments on the record, as I would my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Terlezki). I was an unsuccessful candidate for Newport when I fought there at a tender age in 1964 and 1966 without the aid of the boundary commissioners. Hon. Members with knowledge of the area will know what I am talking about. I like to think that I fell along the wayside, gallantly holding my party's flag high, in order that my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West should come here and make such a splendid speech. I am sure that the late Sir Ronald Bell, who, briefly in 1945, was the last Conservative Member for Newport, would have been proud to see my hon. Friend in his place.
  Cardiff happens, coincidentally, to be my home town, which my father represented in this House. It is with great pride that I see my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West here. He is a colourful tribute to his city—if I may put it like that—and I am sure that he will be an equally colourful tribute to the House.
  The assessments that have been made of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary's handling of the Grenada issue have not shown a fair consideration of the hindsight factor. There might not have been a witch hunt in the press but it has certainly treated him unkindly. This is not the only case where such attacks concentrate upon what happens in the House, the way we perform, and so on. We all know that the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has had a field day over the past week. As long as hon. Members are not on the receiving end, it is fair to say that such attacks are received with a certain enjoyment. However, we should not forget that political life goes a little beyond performance in the House. The decision was reached in extremely difficult circumstances but was right and my right hon. and learned Friend and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister deserve a few complimentary words from hon. Members in addition to the sort of press that my right hon. and learned Friend has been receiving.
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  Undue credit has been given to the fact that the invasion of Grenada was sudden. While we are all familiar with contingency plans here and there, that decision was taken suddenly by the President of the United States. I do not know exactly when it was taken. Some suggest that it was taken on Sunday evening, American time. However, it was probably taken within 24 hours of the Beirut bomb blast. That decision was about the invasion of a sovereign state and had I been invited to make the decision at the time—far from it that I would have been—I should have reached the same conclusion. In principle, it was wrong, but I appreciate that there were complicated reasons for it.
  The decision was taken after limited consultation. I underline the fact that as a House we must maintain a realistic approach. Some people seem to feel that, in view of our so-called special relationship, the United States should tell us every single thing on the basis of complete equality. I wish it would. However, hon. Members on both sides of the House are surely sufficient realists to know that that cannot happen. However, we would expect it if we were in a war together. Obviously, we would expect it. However, if the United States is alone as the primary power involved in Grenada or if we are alone, as we were in the Falklands, we know that the primary objective is our own interests, afterwards considering our allies and friends. When decisive, speedy action has to be taken, that is not the best background for consultation.
  If one is in the shoes of the United States Government, or our Government, one has to consider security. There are too many leaks. Some are inspired but too many occur in Washington, London and other Western capitals. However, if one is in such a situation, one has to act speedily. It is a tragic fact that one has to act without certain courtesies which otherwise, in an ideal world, one would like.
  The Government also had to decide whether to leap in and cause an undoubted split in the Commonwealth, which was already visible at the time. It would have become worse. Harm would have been done to unity. One also has to consider genuine political doubts. We shall see what balance of advantage emerges from the events, but it is at least arguable that the Soviet Union, which, admittedly, could not lose, could in the longer term have an advantage from the invasion. It has been partly let off the hook of Afghanistan, from which it has suffered in international gatherings since it invaded in late 1979. Those who attend international gatherings will know that that is one of the few matters on which, nearly always, we have managed to unite the Third world against the Soviet Union, in spite of other allegiances at such conferences.
  Against that background, there is the question whether the threat to United States security was sufficient. I say in the nicest possible way that it is unproven, in spite of the factors that have emerged. Therefore, the decision was taken in difficult circumstances. We should give more credit to that than we have done and not get carried away with the enjoyable goings on in the Chamber.
  I reiterate what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Sir P. Goodhart). He will now go down in history, because of what he said about hijacking in the context of islands rather than planes. Grenada is appropriate and is an all-too-prevalent example. The matter must be examined. It is fraught with difficulties because of the doctrine of the sovereign state. Not least because of the urgings of my hon. Friend and others, I am

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  grateful that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary examined the matter constructively and will be considering the matter. The Commonwealth aspect is important. A Commonwealth contribution could be made. The Caribbean is a prime example. As another, there are an incredible number of islands in the Pacific. They have caused little trouble up to now but could do so if we do not take action. We are in the realm of security treaties, spheres of influence, aid and, not least, intelligence. Many of us, whichever side we were on in the argument over the past 10 days, felt that intelligence could have been better.
  Therefore, we must follow through in a positive way. There is a Commonwealth role of presiding in the best way over the restoration of democracy in Grenada. I welcomed the statement by my right hon. and learned Friend that he would respond positively to requests for help. One appreciates that in using the phrase "respond positively" one is dealing, if I may put it like that, with a governmental buzz word, which could mean little more than responding. I hope that they do a little more than just respond, and will explore every avenue.
  I believe that this suggestion could benefit the Western Alliance. Britain needs to take a lead, especially as the Commonwealth is already divided about what to do in the future. If we fail to take positive action we may be embarrassed suddenly to find some worthy Commonwealth country such as Canada or some worthy person connected with the Commonwealth such as Sir Sonny Ramphal taking the lead while we as head of the Commonwealth tamely follow.
  The task needs to be undertaken and we have the experience. One has only to think of the conduct of the recent elections in Zimbabwe when splendid town clerks and county executives were wandering around in tropical trousers as though they were born to the job, although it was in fact their forebears who originally undertook it, and they did it very well.
  Ministers and Foreign Office officials may be worried at the prospect of taking on further commitments when we are already extended in Northern Ireland and the Falklands, but we cannot entirely escape historical obligation. We should therefore not fail to take measures that we ought to take because, unfortunately, we have been obliged to undertake other commitments already.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Paul Dean): It may assist hon. Members if I tell the House that the winding-up speeches are expected to begin at about 9.20 pm, so brevity will win golden opinions all round.
  8.37 pm
  Mr. Tony Banks: In recent months Conservative Foreign Secretaries have experienced a high mortality rate. The present Foreign Secretary, who appears to be continuing in the same mould, is becoming the political equivalent of a football manager trying to run an unsuccessful team. As Britain slips further and further down the international league, the chairman sacks the manager. It is not possible to describe British foreign policy as anything more than a total shambles, but it is now more of a shambles than usual. It is not fair to say that the shambles is the fault entirely of the Foreign Secretary. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has had a difficult and uncomfortable time in the House in the past week and he has deserved it, but the Prime Minister must take her share of the blame—and her share is by far the greatest.
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  During the debate on the invasion of Grenada my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) referred correctly to Britain's doormat diplomacy. The Prime Minister has turned Britain into a doormat for the United States, and doormats should not complain when feet are wiped upon them. Unfortunately for Britain, President Reagan had some pretty nasty stuff on his feet when he invaded Grenada, most of which is now sticking to the Prime Minister and her doormat Government. I do not believe that Britain has any discernible foreign policy other than that put forward by the United States. Such a development is not new. We can trace that state of affairs back to the time of Suez. Britain has become a satellite of the United States. We are in effect an occupied country.
  The Foreign Secretary said that Britian had a respected place in the world. That might have been true in the past, but I challenge the accuracy of that statement now. Everything that we say or do throughout the world is judged in terms of our client status to the United States. No one respects subservience, least of all those who receive it. For Britain to have become, in effect, the lackey of Ronald Reagan is the most contemptible position in which we can find ourselves. We have effectively given up our independence.
  Britain has no discernible independent foreign policy, but the United States has and it is one of opposition to regimes which do not believe wholly in capitalism. To people like Ronald Reagan, freedom equals capitalism and capitalism equals freedom. Many Members on the Government Benches share that view. The theory is simple, stark, dangerous and exceedingly shortsighted because it leads this country and the Americans to give support to some of the nastiest regimes in the world merely because they are anti-Communist or anti-Cuban.
  Reference has been made many times in the House in the past two weeks to the invasion of Grenada being carried out by President Reagan, to use his words, to restore order and democracy. That is hypocritical. If that really was the truth, then why did he not invade Chile, Honduras, Haiti, El Salvador, even South Africa, Bangladesh or Guatemala because all these regimes are repressive and abuse human rights? Yet all of them are supported by the United Stales Government. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Dame Judith Hart) said, United States foreign policy is effectively causing developing countries to turn to Moscow or Havana for help which is being denied them by the West. What we see in American foreign policy, echoed and mirrored by the British Government, is an obsessive, all-consuming hatred for any political system other than capitalism. That is no way to bring stability 10 a dangerous world.
  American foreign policy has four self-fufilling and circular processes. It starts off supporting corrupt regimes simply because they are anti-Communist or anti-Cuban. Of course, the people of those states then turn, not surprisingly, either to revolution or, if they have the opportunity, to the ballot box, as was done in Chile, to overthrow the regime. Other examples are Nicaragua, Cuba and Iran. The second stage of United States policy is to oppose the new regimes both economically and politically. As I said, they turn to Russia or Cuba for assistance. That brings us to the third stage of this circular foreign policy. It allows the United States to claim that there is a Russian conspiracy around the world. The fourth stage of that circular policy is that the United States Government move to de-stabilise or to try to destroy the

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  new regime and redouble their efforts to support other corrupt, anti-Communist Governments. Then we are back to where we started.
  Britain is effectively tied into this self-destructive and self-defeating foreign policy. It is morally indefensible and economically and politically disadvantageous to the British. It is morally indefensible because, as several hon. Members have said, no country has the right to determine the form of government of another country or, indeed, to support repression wherever it takes place, East or West. It is economically and politically disadvantagous to this country because it is short term in its view. It leads us to support regimes that will eventually fall. When that happens, we lose political credibility and economic advantage.
  If the arguments of morality do not appeal to hon. Members on the Government Benches I would have thought that the economic arguments might have done. The classic example is South Africa. This country is the main sustainer of apartheid, which everyone will agree is immoral. The British Government find themselves in that immoral position because that is a regime where racism is enshrined in the constitution. In the long-term it represents poor economic judgment because the racist regime in South Africa will be overthrown. In the meantime we as a country are destroying what little credibility we have left in the world, the credibility that the Foreign Secretary was proclaiming so proudly from the Dispatch Box.
  To be so closely identified and linked with the United States foreign policy is dangerous for Britain. It makes us look as a country hypocritical when we rightly condemn the Soviet Union for the invasion of Afghanistan. Our views as a Government and a nation are dismissed as mere United States propaganda.
  This may come as a surprise to hon. Members on the Government Benches, but I am not anti-American merely because I criticise the policies of President Reagan any more than I am anti-British because I deplore and criticise the policies of this Administration. Britain should pursue an independent morally based foreign policy which enables us to criticise East or West when we see that the concepts of freedom and of human rights are under threat. There is no chance of the Government following such a moral policy. So we must look to the next Labour Government. The events of the past few weeks have brought that prospect more closely into view. I want the next Labour Government to support all ordinary people in their struggle for freedom. I want the next Labour Government to support the liberation movements in central and south America, South Africa and the middle east morally and materially.
  President Reagan has become the greatest single threat to world peace because he is so unpredictable and is likely to react with emotion and to be inspired by feelings that do not allow for cool, rational thought. It could prove fatal for Britain and for the rest of the world if we allow a second-rate actor turned third-rate politician who is advised by a bunch of religious fanatics to dictate Britain's foreign policy.
  8.46 pm
  Sir Julian Ridsdale: When I hear Opposition Members criticise the United States and consider the contribution that that country has made to
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  European peace since the second world war as the leader of NATO, I cannot help thinking that some Opposition Members should think much more deeply about what they say.
  I have just completed a tour of all of the north Atlantic bases on behalf of the North Atlantic Assembly. My overriding impression is that we are dangerously under strength as we face a build-up of conventional naval forces by the Soviet Union.
  In the 1930s, Winston Churchill warned eloquently of the danger then posed by Germany. If he were here now he would warn us just as eloquently of the danger to NATO and the free world that the Soviet build-up poses. The Russians now have 360 submarines as compared with the 46 that Germany had in 1939.
  Bearing in mind the security problems associated with the present naval imbalance, I am sure that the Americans were right to act as they did in Grenada. I do not want to suggest that there was any connection between Mr. Bishop and what happened in the Lebanon, but the Russians are good chess players and the bishop's gambit has created alarming divisions between Britain and the United States. I hope that we shall do everything possible to repair the damage which has been done to Anglo-American relations as the balance of power depends substantially on those relations and it is clear that the Soviet Union has built up substantially its nuclear and conventional forces.
  8.49 pm
  Mr. Dick Douglas: I welcome what the hon. Member for Harwich (Sir J. Ridsdale) has just said. One of the things to which I took exception in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on Monday was his suggestion that it was difficult for the Soviet fleet to gain access to the oceans of the world. He is an erudite man and has much knowledge of defence and international matters, but that was a great lapse in his judgment.
  Rather than discuss Grenada or the Lebanon I shall consider my view of the division between the Soviet Union and the United States. If I had to live in either the United States or the Soviet Union, I would undoubtedly choose the United States. However, I like living in Auchtermuchty, which is near my constituency, and unlike John Junor I not only write about it but live there. British people want to live in the United Kingdom and, while maintaining friendships with all countries, we want to be able to criticise them and not be in their pockets.
  It is easy to pay attention to matters of immediate import when discussing foreign affairs, but I shall consider the law of the sea, which is an international affair, and especially the United Kingdom's posture at the third United Nations conference and convention on the law of the sea. On 2 December 1982, the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind), said:
  "I am not aware of any public statements that they have made in the United States, in Europe or elsewhere in which they have called for the proposals of the law of the sea convention to be accepted by nation States. If they have great enthusiasm for the proposals, they have not given that indication." — [Official Report; 2 December 1982, Vol. 33, c. 414.]
  The document is vital and it took nearly 20 years to arrange negotiations on it. As I understand it, the United States has taken exception to only one of the 17 parts of the convention — that on deep-sea mining. The United Kingdom's initial view is disastrous and shameful.

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  However, if we wish to know American opinion against its own Government we need only turn to the views of the deputy negotiator of the United States team, Leigh S. Ratimer, who wrote this summer:
  "My prediction is that eventually a future United States President will sign it, and its content will be worse than if we had compromised a little on principle to gain additional benefits".
  Elliot Richardson, with whom I spent some time in Washington this summer and who led the United States team, said in a lecture given in Britain:
  "The real importance of the Law of the Sea Convention cannot be found either in the sum of its parts or in its extraordinarily comprehensive whole. It lies rather in its demonstration of the capacity of 160 sovereign States to work out rational accommodations among vital competing interests. This is an achievement whose significance will loom ever larger as the world increasingly finds itself forced to come to grips with its own inseparability.
  The United States especially has much to gain from the strengthening of the rule of law. Through a long succession of Presidents, Secretaries of State and Defences, Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Law of the Sea Delegation heads, it held fast to the awareness that the Law of the Sea Convention could make important contributions to this objective."
  We are lining up with the United States on this matter purely to accommodate commercial interests. The House passed the Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Act 1981, but can the Minister name a company or consortium which has made use of those provisions? Other nations are using the convention and are moving on to exploit the ocean deep. Neither our legislative provisions nor those of the United States can protect companies which wish to embark on deep ocean mining.
  Another matter that has not been mentioned in the debate is the Antarctic treaty. I understand that it is under discussion at present, and that there will be a review in 1991. Britain's attitude to the treaty is to support the international view of mineral rights, which is extremely damaging to our role in trying to uphold the international rule of law. Time does not permit me to discuss the entire history of the Antarctic treaty. I concede that it has worked fairly well, but it has become a North-South issue and Malaysia has put it on the agenda for the next session of the United Nations. What will the Government's position be, since we submitted earlier in the year that it was extremely urgent to have a minerals regime in Antarctica? If we take the view, both on the law of the sea and in relation to Antarctica, that if a country has the technological resources it can reap the benefits of mineral rights and disregard the views of other nations, it will damage our international standing.
  Britain should use its experience in Antarctica to devise a solution for that ecological range which relates the Falkland Islands and their dependencies to an international regime. I know that will be difficult, but it is about time that we moved away quickly from the attitude that the Prime Minister has adopted—that we see no way of discussing the future of the Falkland Islands. I have been to the Falkland Islands: I know of our commitment to them; and I know how that commitment is distorting not only our aid expenditure but our contribution to NATO. The Foreign Office must examine the relationship between Antarctica and the ecology of the Falkland Islands and dependencies, through which we might find a solution to our difficulties in the area.
  8.57 pm
  Mr. Jim Spicer: I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr.
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  Callaghan) is not in the Chamber now, because I shall refer to his speech this afternoon. He cuts a fine figure in the House, he stands up straight and we all admire the way in which he supported the Government during the Falklands affair, but the way in which he attacked the Foreign Secretary, talked about his laid-back style, and asked the Government to pursue a more vigorous foreign policy comes ill from the right hon. Gentleman. Those of us who can go back some way in the House might remember the events of June 1974, when, as Britain was a guarantor power for Cyprus, he, as Foreign Secretary, was invited to take action in concert with Turkey and the other guarantor powers. Had we done that we would not have a divided island in Cyprus now, because the intervention could have come from our sovereign bases there, where we had the necessary troops and aircraft. Had we done so, that wicked and evil man Nicos Sampson would not have lasted for more than two or three days. I am glad that the hon. Member for Bow and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) agrees with me about that.
  It is in the nature of this debate that we should have concentrated on Grenada and the Lebanon. As the weeks go by and Grenada falls into the background, people will once more look at the middle east. The cauldron of the middle east contains the war between Iran and Iraq, of which we have not seen the end by a long chalk, the difficulties in the Lebanon and the continuing problems, ever boiling to the surface, between the Arabs and the Israelis.
  It is natural to concentrate upon the trouble spots, but the Republic of Turkey, which is one of the more stable areas in the middle east, now needs support and encouragement. I know that that idea will not find universal favour, but on Sunday the Turkish people will have their election, which comes just three years after the military takeover. Before 12 September 1980 some people might have called the country democratic, but for the ordinary Turkish people it was not. Each day armed gangs of the Left and Right slaughtered between 30 and 35 people. Determined efforts were being made to stockpile arms, especially along the Soviet border, and some elements in Turkey were determined to use those arms to overthrow democracy.
  I am not certain whether most hon. Members understand the Turkish constitution. Under that constitution, the armed forces of Turkey have a duty to intervene if democracy is at risk. Before 12 September. the armed forces gave that warning three times both to the Socialists under Mr. Ecevit and to Mr. Demirel, the Prime Minister. None of the politicians heeded the warning. They allowed the decline to continue, and on 12 September the armed forces took control of the country. They took over because the alternative was total anarchy, and the Turkish people gave them their support in that action.
  When that intervention took place, it was regarded as yet another military takeover by a military junta which would remain for all time. On Sunday, however, elections will take place, and the lie will then be given to that assumption. After those elections have taken place, I hope that our Government will take a lead in welcoming Turkey back to its rightful place as a strong and faithful ally of the West. Nothing has happened within NATO to upset Turkey's place, and Turkey remains the linchpin of the Alliance in the south. It is vital that in the next few weeks and months those Britons—especially the Conservatives

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  —who serve not only in the Council of Europe but in the European Parliament should welcome the Turks back on board and re-establish all links.
  The election will not be all that we would wish it to be, but it is a step along the right road. There is within Turkey a desire to remain part of the Western alliance, but if Turkey is not accepted it may well adopt a neutralist attitude. Throughout the past three years people have been trying to destabilise Turkey. They will continue to do so after the election by insisting that the election did not count. Turkey is the one stable factor in the middle east. Unless our Government are prepared to support Turkey in the weeks and months ahead, it will be a bad day for the West.
  Perhaps rightly, we handed over to the United Nations our responsibilities for the unhappy island of Cyprus. However, as a guarantor power, with a residual responsibility, we ought at least to take some initiatives, perhaps towards reopening Nicosia airport or funding more scholarships which would enable Turkish and Greek Cypriots to meet. After 10 years, generations of Greeks and Turks are growing up in Cyprus who have never had any contact with each other. That is a recipe for a disaster in Cyprus which could spill over into the middle east as a whole.
  Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Speaker: I appeal to the next three hon. Members to speak for only five minutes each.
  9.5 pm
  Mr. Robert N. Wareing: I am glad to be able to take part in this important debate. The speech of the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Spicer) offered a fine example of the sort of double-think that many hon. Members object to. The debate has been largely dominated by recent events in Grenada. I believe that they should be examined against the background of policies since the second world war.
  I know that there are some Conservative Members who would justify the cold war attitude that also exists in the Pentagon by referring to the Russian invasions of Afghanistan and Hungary, and to the putting down of the Hungarian revolution in 1956. However, I speak as someone who was fortunate enough to visit Czechoslovakia during that marvellous Prague spring, and to drink up the atmosphere of liberation that was associated with the Government of Alexander Dubcek. The people of Czechoslovakia fought, and were suppressed by the Russians, not because they wanted to restore capitalism but because they wanted to establish a working-class socialist democracy in which working people were fully emancipated and had full rights. They did not want to restore capitalism. That Prague spring has, of course, had parallels in other parts of eastern Europe.
  My objection is not that people should be opposed to Stalinist tyranny or to the statist bureaucracy in eastern Europe, but that the Prime Minister should demonstrate her cogenital anti-Sovietism in every answer that she gives on foreign affairs. The hon. Member for Harwich (Sir J. Ridsdale) mentioned Sir Winston Churchill and what he would have said if he were in the House now. He was right to refer to the efforts that the Americans made to fight for freedom in Europe. When we remember our fallen in two
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  world wars a week on Sunday, I hope that we shall also remember the Americans who lost their lives in those two world wars. However, I hope that we shall also remember the 20 million Soviet dead who fought in the great world struggle against Fascism and who were our allies during those vital years. I can tell the hon. Member for Harwich what Winston Churchill said during those years of struggle against Fascism. He said that it was the Red Army that ripped the guts out of the Nazi war machine.
  It was not a Socialist, far less a Communist, who got up at a public meeting in Britain in those days and said that we should always remember the debt that we owed the Red Army and the bravery of the Russian people in their struggle. To remember that does not mean that we are Communists. However, if we remember it, we shall have some idea of what informs Soviet foreign policy. It would be wrong to imagine that by reading the "Communist Manifesto" or "Das Kapital" one can understand what motivates the Kremlin's foreign policy. However, it should be borne in mind that Soviet foreign policy is informed by fear of overthrow of the statist regimes in eastern Europe and by fear of another invasion by the West. Hon. Members should remember that Russia has been invaded twice this century and that that invasion came from western Europe and from the very capitalist countries that the Russians even now see as a threat. As the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) said during the debate on Grenada last week, malice and bigotry are not good counsellors when it comes to moulding a foreign policy.
  Let us examine not NATO's history in Europe, but its powers during the past 34 years. Hon. Members are looking at their watches. I have been looking at the clock now for five hours, and, if anyone is to stop me, it will not be Conservative Members.
  Has NATO been an Alliance for peace and freedom? In fact, some members of that Alliance have been among the foullest dictatorships in Europe. For a long time, Portugal, which was a founder member of NATO, was not using NATO forces to oppose freedom in Portugal—the dictator Salazar ordered all the flags in Portugal to be flown at half mast when Hitler died—but against people who were fighting for freedom in Angola and Mozambique.
  No one took action against the foul seven-year regime of the colonels in Greece. NATO was quiet about this matter; even the Council of Europe was more active. For a long period, France used NATO forces to attempt to impose oppressive colonial regimes in Vietnam and Algeria. At present, Turkey reveals one of the worst features of a dictatorship. Not one of the political parties that have been banned by the junta during the past couple of years is permitted to take part in the election on Sunday. What type of democracy is Turkey? The Prime Minister is being hypocritical when she makes speeches about the subjection of Solidarity—of course, it is right to oppose oppression in Poland—but do nothing. The Foreign Secretary is also a doormat in this matter.
  For generations, people in Latin America have been oppressed. In 1954, we experienced the Eisenhower doctrine. I remind those Conservative Members who believe that only in Russia is there the Brezhnev doctrine of limited sovereignty of what one former Secretary of State for Latin American Affairs said:

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  "Communism is so blatantly an international and not an internal affairs, its suppression, even by force, in an American country by one or more of the republics would not constitute an intervention in the internal affairs of the former."
  That is the Brezhnev doctrine long before Brezhnev.
  If we are to stand for moral leadership in the world, which the Foreign Secretary thinks we do, it is high time that we opposed all oppressors and did not engage in double-think. It is not moral leadership to be associated with crooked dictators in Chile and Turkey or the Pinochet thugs who sort out democratic forces in their country every day and night. It is not moral leadership to sell arms to Indonesia which is involved in a war of genocide in East Timor where, out of a population of about 650,000, 200,000 have already been annihilated. We sell Hawks and frigates to Indonesia. The East Timorese have suffered abominably. Yet the Foreign Secretary is an ally not of freedom but of oppression. The greatest danger to democracy in this country does not come from the Soviet Union, but from the Government's efforts to suppress trade unionism and local democracy which for generations have been the hallmarks of liberty in this country.
  9.19 pm
  Mr. Dennis Walters: I have to be brief, so I shall not follow the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) in his rather emotive language.
  Whatever view one may take of the merits of the United States intervention in Grenada, it is beyond question that the United States Government treated their allies in a cavalier fashion. That is particularly true of the United Kingdom, as Grenada is part of the Commonwealth, and the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary were correct in saying what they did.
  I hope that the United States Administration are beginning to realise that this is no way to behave towards one's principal friends and allies, although with people like Mrs. Kirkpatrick around, one cannot be altogether sure.
  In any event, on the assumption that the Americans wish to rebuild bridges and are in the mood to listen, this might be an opportune moment for us to call for a serious United States diplomatic initiative in the middle east an area infinitely more strategically important to the West than Grenada and where the dangers to world peace are much greater.
  The potentially explosive situation in the middle east should not be allowed to continue in its present state of drift and at the same time the inadequacy and irrelevancy of short-term measures should be exposed. For it would be foolish of the Americans to persuade themselves that they could seriously improve or change matters by means of a military presence in the Lebanon. It would be even more foolish and much more dangerous if they allowed themselves to be sucked into a conflict with Syria.
  There is only one way to proceed in trying to solve the several highly complicated problems in the area, and that is to hold negotiations aimed at achieving a comprehensive settlement. If these are to have any chance of success, they cannot exclude the Soviet Union and must plainly include Syria and the Palestinians as well as Israel and the United States.
  There have been many middle east peace plans over the years, but the Venice declaration of 13 June 1980 perhaps came closest to setting out terms which could be the basis for a lasting settlement. Its central theme was the right of
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  Israel to security and of the Palestinians to self-determination. The Israelis, however, who have always been much more interested in territorial aggrandisement than security, rejected the plan out of hand and the United States Administration were entirely negative in their response.
  Since the declaration, the situation in the whole area has steadily deteriorated. The Iraq-Iran war started in September 1980 and still lingers on, carrying with it grave economic and human consequences as well as the threat to destabilise the whole of the Gulf.
  The savage Israeli invasion of the Lebanon in 1982 caused thousands of dead, untold misery and suffering and is the main cause of the present breakdown of the Lebanese state.
  Then came the mildly encouraging Reagan proposals, which gave some hope that a serious diplomatic initiative was about to be launched. However, the Reagan plan never got off the ground because the United States failed lamentably to show that it had any intention of ensuring its eventual implementation. That lack of muscle exposed the plan as being half-baked and put King Hussein of Jordan in an impossible position. Since then, the outlook has worsened further and internal stresses have weakened the moderate leadership of the PLO. In the past few weeks there has been the ghastly carnage of the United States' and French Marines in Beirut.
  The talks being held in Geneva between the conflicting Lebanese factions are the only positive development, but they cannot achieve anything in isolation.
  Incidentally, there was a highly disquieting report in The Times on Wednesday which referred to the Israeli threat to close all the bridges across the Awali river and seal off southern Lebanon, effectively partitioning the country, if the talks did riot follow Israel's wishes. The Awali river is even deeper into Lebanese territory than the Litani line, which figured prominently in the original Zionist expansionist map of the area. So much for United Nations resolutions calling for total Israeli withdrawal from Lebanese territory.
  Europe should now revive the Venice declaration and spell out again in the clearest manner possible the principles that it enshrines. At the same time, a major diplomatic offensive should be mounted to persuade the United States to go along with the revived declaration and, more positively, to sponsor a conference of the relevant parties aimed at achieving art overall settlement.
  If, as a result of such a European initiative, the United States agreed to do so—and accepted that at long last the time had come to put some serious pressure on Israel, the bankrupt economy of which is propped up by the Americans and the armed forces of which depend almost entirely on American military aid — we should have taken a major step towards reaching a settlement.
  It does not make sense to exclude the Soviet Union from negotiations. In any event, the Soviet Union has it within its power to render unworkable any settlement reached without its participation. The Soviet Union should therefore be asked to join in the talks. In this connection, it would be a highly imaginative gesture by the Prime Minister if she were to visit Moscow in the near future to discuss this and other matters.
  No one could conceivably accuse my right hon. Friend of lacking robustness in her attitude towards the Soviet Union or of failing to be a loyal friend of the United States and President Reagan. But if she could persuade the

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  United States and the Soviet Union to join in talks about a comprehensive middle east peace settlement based on proposals submitted by Europe, she would have made not only an historic contribution towards achieving a settlement in the middle east, but an invaluable contribution to the maintenance of world peace.
  9.22 pm
  Mr. George Robertson: I congratulate the two maiden speakers. The hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson) showed authority, eloquence and great prescience in choosing this debate in which to make his maiden speech. His background and experience will obviously lead him to make many more such contributions.
  The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Terlezki) spoke with conviction and vigour and with experience which few in this House can match. Although many of us will not agree with his analysis of foreign affairs, he has every right to make such an analysis in this House.
  We had yet another maiden speech today. That was the maiden speech in the rest of the Foreign Secretary's life. I understand that his contribution was part of a great rescue effort for the right hon. and learned Gentleman's reputation, a form of political mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. I suppose we should have known that the cavalry were being called in, because, first, the lights in the Chamber went out and, secondly, his speech was ordinarily dreary, and not controversially dreary, as were his remarks all last week.
  One aspect of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech was to some extent controversial, and that was his apparent inability to answer my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who asked whether the Government would be sending troops, or anybody else, to Grenada for the multinational force that is being talked about. The right hon. and learned Gentleman appeared to give an indication of an agreement in principle to the force being formed, but went on to avoid the issue as to whether Britain would be sending a component to the force.
  The House deserves to know tonight why the Government are being so cagey on the issue. Will we be sending people to Grenada to participate in the force and, if so, what uniform will they wear. Is it to be a security force, or is it to be a peacekeeping force? Why will the Government not say whether they are sending anyone? I hope that the Minister will answer that important question.
  This valuable foreign affairs debate has ranged over a wide variety of subjects. Hon. Members have chosen to raise a number of issues that are important to them. However, at the end of the debate we still have little real knowledge of the Government's foreign policy. It is not a mystery just to the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), who has had the experience of being in the Foreign Office and asked for — and presumably was refused—the sheet of paper on which the foreign policy was written. The question is one which the House, too, must ask.
  Mr. Onslow: The hon. Gentleman should not misunderstand me. The fact that I asked the question does not mean that I did not get a satisfactory answer. There was a much more coherent statement after some time, and in my opinion that was greatly to the advantage of all concerned.
  Mr. Robertson: The hon. Gentleman is being his usual modest self. I am willing to accept from him that he asked for the sheet of paper, and got it. However, the probability is that he did not read it after that. As only he and I know, having spent many long evenings here on obscure orders, the evidence is clearly there for him.
  Is the Government's foreign policy to be encompassed by a belief in human rights? Or is it to be based on a genuine respect for international law — not just international law in relation to invasions, but the form of international law that is being developed on the law of the sea, on which the Government have turned their back? That subject was rightly aired by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) this evening. Is the policy to be based solely on the protection of this nation's interests abroad? Or is it just to encompass the protection of the United States foreign policy and its perception of its interests, however arbitrary and uncertain that may be? Or is Britain's role now to be a new form of Europeanism—perhaps pioneered, not too successfully, by the Venice declaration?
  The Foreign Secretary's contribution to the debate on the European Community this evening seemed sterile compared with the great ideals of the European Community. If all that the Community is to be, as the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) said, is a place for permanent discussion over Britain's budget contribution, there is little likelihood that Britain's foreign policy can be based on that. So we can search in vain in the Foreign Secretary's speech today, or indeed in any of his speeches, for a glimmer of enlightenment on any of these questions.
  This week, of all weeks, is an interesting illustration of the vast pattern of issues into which a British foreign policy should fit. That framework does not have to be the seamless web of principle which the Foreign Secretary seemed to suggest he was being asked for earlier. This week has been dominated by the events in Grenada and the Caribbean as a whole, but there was also an election last weekend in Argentina. That election brought to power a civilian Government, with a moderate President who has convincing support. That must raise hopes for a long-term solution for the security of the Falkland Islanders.
  Next Sunday there is to be an election—the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Spicer) referred to it— or what is called an election, in Turkey. That will end three years of military rule, but will put in its place only a counterfeit democracy.
  Mr. Jim Spicer rose——
  Mr. Robertson: The hon. Gentleman did not give way to anyone when he was speaking.
  A referendum was held yesterday on a new constitution for South Africa, and my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) mentioned this. The referendum has split the country, uniting black opposition with outspoken opposition from the anti-Government Right wing as well. The outcome may be decisive in electoral terms, but the ultimate outcome will be more difficult to predict. This week, we have seen a continuation of the secret, and sometimes not so secret, negotiations on the future of the Crown colony of Hong Kong, with each bout of megaphone diplomacy bringing the Hong Kong economy nearer and nearer to nervous breakdown.

  1079
  Even taking those issues alone, impinging as they do on vital British interests, whether they be the legacy of colonial power or based on our chances of influencing in the future, we must seek to put them in some context. They all focus on the fact that British Conservative foreign policy is riddled with the inconsistencies and indecisions that we saw so graphically illustrated on the Government Benches last week. Even without the Grenada invasion, and the contemptuous American dismissal of our view, and even discounting our own submission to the United States' view of peacekeeping in Beirut, we should still find it difficult to find out the values and standards of this Government's foreign policy.
  I return to the Turkish elections to be held this Sunday. In August, only weeks before the Prime Minister was to barnstorm her way round America, out-Reaganing Reagan in the championing of crusades for freedom, the Turkish Foreign Minister could quote in Turkey that Britain endorsed the "return to democracy" and say that
  "Britain is pleased with the developments in Turkey and has agreed that democracy in Turkey should be developed in keeping with the dictates of the stability the country needs."
  It is small wonder that he was able to show his appreciation of the
  "consistent support and understanding Britain has given Turkey for the past three years."
  Even the Prime Minister would find it difficult to describe as democratic an election in this country which banned the leaders and organisations of the Conservative, Liberal, Labour, SDP and any other parties, and substituted a sanitised, militarily approved substitute. That is what will happen on Sunday in Turkey. A fellow member of NATO, and still an ally of Britain, is receiving a disproportionate amount of our development aid. This charade in Turkey is little more than a civilian cloak—
  Mr. Jim Spicer rose——
  Mr. Robertson: No.
  Mr. Spicer: The hon. Gentleman has made a ridiculous statement and should give way.
  Mr. Robertson: It is little more than a civilian cloak, and the British Government devalue their proper condemnation of human rights violations in eastern Europe and the Soviet Union with their continuing support for the charade of democracy that will be conducted in Turkey on Sunday. Will the Government, with the same enthusiasm as they expressed over these fake elections, campaign to liberate those political prisoners still incarcerated in Turkey's gaols simply for indulging in political behaviour that would be regarded as normal here?
  It would be difficult to avoid dealing with the subject of yesterday's referendum in South Africa. That referendum has implications not only for South Africa, because of the dangers that will arise from united black opposition to the referendum results, as well as the Right-wing breach among the white voters, but for Namibia and its future. As Great Britain is a member of the contact group of nations trying to find a solution to the Namibian problem, perhaps the Minister will report on progress in the contact group and enlighten the House on why there has been complete silence from the group since August when Senor Perez de Cuellar's report was made after his visit to Namibia.
  The Namibian conflict could easily develop into one that will engulf the whole of South Africa and the
  1080
  surrogates for the West and the East who are playing their parts there. It is incumbent on the Government, as they play a part in that upheaval, to give their view. If there is one beneficiary of the South African referendum it may well be Namibia because the triumph of Mr. P. W. Botha in the referendum will perhaps give him the courage and the guts to come to some agreement on Namibia.
  That will be small consolation for a result that ratifies a constitution which The Economist recently described as
  "Devoid of legitimacy and practicability … simply the churning chemistry of white tribal survival at work."
  This new constitution, which manages the feat of uniting all black opinion with the opposition of the people whom the new constitution was to benefit as well as the hard Right of racist South African politics, will bring South Africa to the brink of yet a new crisis. It would be interesting, in the light of the strong remarks on apartheid by the Prime Minister in her recent open letter to the hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Lloyd) on the issue of sport, to hear the Government's view on how they will treat this new travesty of a constitution in South Africa.
  I should like now to deal with the issue of Hong Kong, that "residual problem of empire" as Sir Nicholas Henderson described it in his open letter to the Foreign Secretary, which was published in The Sunday Times. I do not know how we stand in the world this week after the Granada invasion, but that invasion and its repercussions may well have an effect on the negotiations from Hong Kong. It is strange that, amid the total secrecy of the talks on Hong Kong, the vast amount of words that are being uttered about the positions, possibilities, costs, risks and eventualities, everyone seems to be having a say on that great issue except the British Parliament.
  I concede that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Adley) initiated an Adjournment debate on Hong Kong on Monday of this week, but anyone reading it would recognise that so little was said that it added nothing to the debate that should be taking place on this issue. The ultimate decision on Hong Kong will have to be taken here in this Parliament by hon. Members, and if the history of the Falklands episode showed anything under the searchlight of the Franks report, it was that such decisions cannot be taken for granted.
  That is why discussions on Hong Kong and on the various crucial issues involved need not necessarily be stifled simply to allow the desirable confidentiality of the negotiations to continue. The last thing we need at the conclusion of the negotiations is what the hon. Member for Christchurch described on Monday as "surprises".
  The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden), who is a new Member and writes at length in The Times, said recently:
  "Above all do not let us behead the messenger because we do not like the message. The Franks report shows where that can lead."
  That is too true, and that is why I believe it is an opportune occasion to remind the Government that, following Franks, too much will not be taken on trust by Parliament and that perhaps, despite the recognised need for secrecy and confidentiality, some of the issues must be rehearsed — and not just in response to provocative statements from the Chinese, or on World Service talk-ins, but in this Parliament where responsibility for the ultimate decision lies.
  The House is agreed on the objective of a settlement which does the best for the people of Hong Kong, but that

  1081
  must be achieved without the post-imperial hang-ups which too often overshadow debates on subjects of this nature.
  The past two weeks have changed the face of Western postures in the international context. The American invasion of Grenada, breaching as it did the United Nations charter and international law, has not only affected the important relationship between the United States and the rest of the Atlantic Alliance, but has challenged the moral authority of the West as a whole. By apparently embracing the Brezhnev doctrine of taking on the right to decide who governs the nations inside one's sphere of influence, the underpinning has weakened seriously the West's stance on Afghanistan, Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Even with Kampuchea, the West's condemnation of the Vietnamese invasion was so bitter we continue to recognise the mass-murdering regime of Pol Pot. In a host of other areas, intervention by force is the rule rather than the exception.
  The saddest part of the United States action is that, whatever the eventual outcome in Grenada, and no matter how many Cubans are discovered as advisers and not as labourers on airfields, if the simplistic morality of might is right is to prevail in the West as well as in the East, the multiplication of potential crisis points threatens us all.
  It should give no one in the House comfort that the United States, with all its great democratic strength, has been brought so low by its present temporary Administration. So much of what has been said today, in the wide-ranging debate across every issue of foreign policy, needs to be related to a clearer view of what British interests should be about, what values they need to mirror and what Britain's role must be in the world.
  The tragedy of the Government is that the moral position of the West in international affairs has been so damaged recently that they cannot offer a clear alternative. The last election showed that foreign policy will always be a domestic political issue. The lesson for the Opposition was that people wanted foreign policy objectives clearly spelt out. We have learned that lesson, albeit expensively. As we watch the Government disarray on the Benches reach almost to the political assassination of yet another Foreign Secretary, it is clear that the Government have learned little from their temporary electoral success to help them next time around.
  9.42 pm
  The Minister for Overseas Development (Mr. Timothy Raison): I shall not follow all the points raised by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson), but he at least had the honesty to recognise that the electorate decisively rejected the Labour party's foreign policy at the general election, and equally decisively supported that of the Conservative party.
  The debate has been notable in several ways. We suddenly found the House plunged into darkness—not once, but several times. There were moments when we began to wonder whether there was not a Grenada-style coup, perhaps organised by a group devoted to preventing the televising of Parliament. But we soon heard the reassuring and familiar voice of Mr. Deputy Speaker saying, "This is your Deputy Speaker", which brought us back to sanity.
  1082
  The House heard two excellent maiden speeches— from my hon. Friends the Members for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson) and for Cardiff, West (Mr. Terlezki). My hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West began by speaking about the Severn bridge. I had the alarming feeling that he was aware that I have responsibility for aid, and was about to make an application. He told us a little about his experience with the United Nations and the Commonwealth secretariat. He made some important points about Grenada. He said that it was a sad day when a Government was changed by outside intervention, but he also said—this has been the lesson of the debate—that that does not mean a fundamental change in the relationship between Britain and the United States. My hon. Friend also said that there is now an opportunity for a touch of healing in the Caribbean. I confess that for a moment I thought he said "a touch of Healey", and I began to worry.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West told us that he spoke with an Anglo-Ukrainian-Welsh accent. He spoke proudly of the model relationship between the different groups in Cardiff, and said that both he and they were proud to be British. He succeeded the noble Lord Tonypandy—George Thomas—whom we all know so well, and he said, rightly, that he was a great man. We are in full agreement with that. We were all deeply moved by what my hon. Friend had to say about freedom. He has cause to know what he is talking about.
  The debate has been notable for its general quality and I apologise to the House because it is obviously not possible for me to answer every point that has been raised. There were different points of view, and some were expressed vehemently, but on the whole the tone of the debate has been thoughtful and absorbing. In that respect it followed the lead of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary's opening speech.
  We have heard a lot from the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) recently and we all know that his favourite phrase of the moment is "megaphone diplomacy". Happily, he was not in his most megaphone style today but in rather a lower key, only intermittently megaphony. However, there were several points in his speech with which I cannot agree.
  First, the right hon. Gentleman asked about civilian casualties in Grenada. As yet, no definite figures are available, but a team of 12 Red Cross representatives is now working closely with the United States forces on Grenada and it may be able to provide information before long.
  The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the Governor-General's role. We all now realise that he is not the agent of any foreign Government. His constitutional position has been made clear by my right hon. and learned Friend and the House understands it. He has no formal link with Her Majesty's Government and we received no request for intervention from him.
  As my right hon. and learned Friend said—this has been the essence of today's debate—what really matters now is what happens next in Grenada. Arguments about the past will, perhaps, continue, but the crucial thing is to try to work out the right answer for the future. I reiterate what we have said about the United Kingdom's participation in any schemes of Commonwealth assistance. As my right hon. and learned Friend said, the Government will want to respond positively to requests for help with arrangements for ensuring that conditions for

  1083
  peace and security are restored to the island. We are in close touch with the Governor-General, the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth and our Commonwealth partners to see how the Commonwealth can best help. That might include assistance with the holding of free elections. That parallels the other offers of assistance made by my right hon. and learned Friend — the willingness to resume our bilateral aid relationship with Grenada.
  Mr. Healey: The right hon. Gentleman has not made it clear whether Her Majesty's Government will provide military assistance if that is requested by the Commonwealth as a whole or by the Commonwealth secretariat.
  Mr. Raison: We must consider the position as it evolves. We have a little time, particularly during the elections about which my right hon. and learned Friend talked. It would be ridiculous to rush in with detailed schemes before we have had time to find out exactly what is needed on the island. It will take time and there are clearly problems, but we must find the right answers and I am not prepared to go further than my right hon. and learned Friend has gone today.
  We have been challenged about the Government's policy in the Caribbean. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Sir P. Goodhart) challenged us, as did others. I see no reason to be defensive on this point. We are not neglecting or withdrawing from the Caribbean. We have maintained a substantial aid programme of some £25 million a year and we have extensive diplomatic representation there.
  We are also giving security assistance. I visited the Caribbean in September. The Minister of State, my noble Friend Baroness Young, also visited the area in September and October. There is no doubt that the Caribbean region is important to the United Kingdom. Our policy remains to maintain and promote peace and stability in that area and to help the economies of the countries of that region to develop. I cannot altogether accept the criticisms of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon), much as I respect him. It is not true that we had no representation in Grenada. We have had a resident high commission representative since 1980.
  Mr. Rippon: I am glad to hear that. What communication did we have from our representative or what effort did we make to get in touch with him? How successful were we in doing so?
  Mr. Raison: We have regularly maintained close communication with our representative, but my right hon. and learned Friend will acknowledge that in the arguments over the past few weeks the crucial question about whether there would be military action was not determined in Grenada. The reporting has had to come from other places. Therefore, while there are many areas in which we would have liked to have stronger representation, if resources permitted, it is not true that we have not been able to have a clear idea of the situation in Grenada in recent years.
  I agree that we have substantially reduced our aid programme to Grenada, but I ask whether that is so wrong, in view of the nature of the regime. I can almost imagine my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham asking, in other circumstances, why we continue to prop it up. Perhaps I do him an injustice.
  Whatever my right hon. and learned Friend's views, the fact is that the human rights record of that regime was
  1084
  questionable. I was in St. Kitts and Nevis a few weeks ago for the independence ceremonies, and I talked to Maurice Bishop at a party. He seemed to be wondering whether there should be more movement towards the West. Perhaps he was thinking in those terms; it is hard to say. Perhaps that is what accounts for his fate. It may be so; none of us can tell. However, we do know that, with so many competing claims on our aid programme, there were good reasons why Grenada could not have priority. It was getting substantial aid anyway from other parts of the world. We have a good aid programme in the Caribbean, but the Caribbean countries are not, by and large, among the poorest in the world. Opposition Members always tell us that we should focus the aid programme on the poorest countries. By the normal indices, that is not so with the Caribbean.
  Dame Judith Hart: Does the Minister believe that events in Grenada would have taken the course that they did had we not reduced our aid to Grenada by three quarters?
  Mr. Raison: It is highly likely, but none of us can be sure.
  I accept, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary does, that we must find ways of helping what my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West called the micro states—the ones threatened with hijack, according to the graphic description of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham. My right hon. and learned Friend recognised the problem of security. We already help in significant ways. For example, we help with policing. I saw the police college in Barbados a few weeks ago. We have helped with the provision of a coastguard service in the Caribbean. However, as my right hon. and learned Friend said, we shall have to consider the matter further.
  The right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins), who is not present, said that he did not dissent from the line of my right hon. and learned Friend over Grenada. I believe firmly that, as the House understands what has been happening, it increasingly shares the view of the right hon. Member for Hillhead in that respect. The path that we have taken is wise. Events will justify it.
  When the right hon. Member for Leeds, East dealt with the Falklands, he seemed to suggest that there was no longer any need for Britain to defend the Falklands. I think that I heard him correctly. He said that there was now no military threat. The Government do not share the right hon. Gentleman's blind confidence that all militaristic sentiment in Argentina has evaporated overnight with the prospect of Mr. Alfonsin coming to power. We must hope that the new president will herald a commitment to peace, but we cannot be sure what will happen in Argentina in the future. If a military threat does not exist or is reduced, it is because of our defence and our resolution. That must be clearly understood.
  Mr. Healey: Baloney.
  Mr. Raison: There is no point in the right hon. Gentleman saying "Baloney". The first step forward must be for Argentina to respond positively to the offers that we have made to normalise commercial and economic relations.
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, East also referred to disarmament and the nuclear debate, as did the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Callaghan)

  1085
  to whom the House listened with particular care. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East referred to the inclusion of British systems in the Geneva negotiations. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary told the General Assembly on 28 October, our force is strategic. The Russians acknowledged that in the SALT negotiations. Our Polaris force represents less than 3 per cent. of the strategic forces of the Soviet Union. As things stand, it would be absurd to seek to trade reductions with a superpower.
  Mr. Mikardo: We are not asking for a reduction.
  Mr. Raison: As my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said, Britain has never said never. If the Soviet and American strategic arsenals were to be substantially reduced, and if no significant changes had taken place in Soviet defensive capabilities, Britain would want to review its position and consider how best it could contribute to arms control, bearing in mind the reduced threat.
  Mr. Healey: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Russians are not asking for a reduction in the number of British or French forces? They are saying that, as the British forces are under the command of SACEUR and targeted against the Soviet Union by SACEUR, as the American Defence Secretary admitted, they should be counted in the negotiations as they were in SALT 1.
  Mr. Raison: The right hon. Gentleman knows that the essential point is that we are referring to strategic arms. By any standard, they are strategic arms.
  Mr. Healey: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question?
  Mr. Raison: A further possibility was that START and the INF negotiations might be merged. I do not think that the Government would have anything against that in principle, provided that the Russians and the Americans believed that it would facilitate the search for an
  1086
  agreement. I doubt that such a time has arrived. The obvious risk is that a premature merger might aggravate the problems which currently face the two negotiations.
  The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) referred to the Lebanon. I do not share the right hon. Gentleman's scepticism about the value of the British contingent to the multinational force in Beirut. I note that the right hon. Gentleman has joined the "troops out" movement in that respect, but I do not agree with what he says.
  I am sure that I speak for many hon. Members when I say that our troops in the Lebanon are performing their role with great courage and efficiency. Among other things, our troops provide an impartial guard for the meetings of the committee which supervises the ceasefire. In other words, they have a constructive role. We are not in the Lebanon because our contingent may somehow please the Americans, but because the Lebanese Government asked for it. We responded positively because to do so served our national interests as well as increasing the chances of peace in that area. Our overriding interest in the area is to prevent war between Israel and the Arabs. I am convinced that the presence of the MNF in the past 14 months has helped to control the conflict within Lebanon and to prevent it spreading. A stable Lebanon, free from Syrians, Israelis and members of the PLO, is in the interests of the United States. That we have the same interest does not make us an American dummy any more than the French or Italians are. It is an example of co-operation between Western states for the common good and for the good of the Lebanon.
  That brings me again to the essential point of the debate. I say it once more because it has to be said over and over again. Nothing matters more than the unity of the West; nothing matters more than NATO or our alliances. Nothing that Opposition Members have said today and none of the events of recent weeks in any way undermines the truth of that vital proposition.
  Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones (Lords Commissioner to the Treasury): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  Ambulance Services (Sunderland)
  Motion made and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Garel-Jones.]
  10 pm
  Mr. Bob Clay: I am grateful for this opportunity to bring to the attention of the House an urgent matter of life and death. It is, of course, only one example of the piece by piece destruction of the National Health Service that is taking place up and down the country. It is one story from one area, but it must be one of the most shocking.
  For several months there have been mounting complaints about the provision of ambulance services in the Sunderland area and adjacent districts of the Northumbria ambulance service. Sunderland community health council has expressed concern after a growing number of complaints from users of the service. The deputy leader of Sunderland borough council has described the present system as dicing with lives. Ambulance drivers and ambulance officers are in a state of agitation and distress such as I have not seen before amongst workers in the public service.
  My hon. Friends the Members for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) and for Houghton and Washington (Mr. Boyes), who cannot be here because of constituency commitments, and I have written to the Minister, to the chief ambulance officer, Mr. Caple, and to the regional health authority administrator, Mr. Hague. We have met with Mr. Caple and Mr. Hague.
  Our concern is about the present and the future. The service has been inadequate for some months because the necessary ambulance cover is not provided on many occasions. If normal emergency cover at an ambulance station at a certain time is two crews and one crew is sick or on holiday, it has become the practice increasingly not to cover that by overtime. Alternatively, it has been the practice to use for emergencies an ambulance which is doing routine out-patient collection. Consequently, old, disabled, and sick people are being dumped halfway through a journey or are being stranded at hospitals. In other cases, the ambulance simply fails to turn up in the morning or arrives many hours late because it has been diverted to an emergency. The patients wait at home, not knowing what has happened. The staff are so overworked that it is not even possible for them to inform patients that the ambulance will not collect them that day.
  This practice is also leading to the use of ambulances from well outside the area so the crews are not familiar with the district. Mr. Caple thinks that this is a sensible saving. We believe that it is potentially tantamount to murder because it leads to crews coming greater distances to emergencies in an area where they are unfamiliar with the geography and the names.
  I should like briefly to give three examples. The first in my constituency is an illustration of how near the brink we have come. At nine o'clock one evening all three ambulances available at Sunderland ambulance station were at a fatal road accident in the Seaburn area of Sunderland. An urgent admission arose in the south of the area, also in Sunderland, and the only ambulance which was available in Washington had to be fetched, leaving the whole of Washington without emergency cover. At the same time the ambulance at Herrington, the only other ambulance anywhere in Sunderland, was called to another
  1088
  emergency. If there had been any further emergency anywhere in the Sunderland area it would have had to wait, however desperate and urgent it was. My hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow has had lengthy correspondence about a fatal accident outside the Rex cinema in Hebburn. It took place one quarter of a mile away from the Hebburn ambulance station and yet it took 25 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. The victim died the following day. When my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow complained, he was given incorrect information. That has now been admitted and it has been established that it took 25 minutes for the ambulance to arrive. It emerged that the ambulance came from an area to which it should not have been sent because of the lack of ambulance provision there. The problem is complicated and nonsensical.
  There was recently a case of a man driving an ambulance alone on routine outpatient work. He was asked to pick up someone whom he thought was a routine case. The patient started to behave hysterically and violently in the back of the ambulance while other patients were in it. The ambulance driver was not able to control the patient alone and had to call for assistance. It took a long time for that assistance to arrive as no other ambulances were available. It was discoverd later, and then only by fluke, that the patient should have been picked up by taxi and had been hysterical and violent for five days. The practice of sending taxis rather than ambulances is increasing. That is scandalous.
  Some people believe that they are sane and that the rest of the world is mad. The senior officials who are responsible for the problems of the ambulance service in the Sunderland area seem to be such people. Rather than reconsider their policy and restore overtime coverage to ensure that all rotas are always staffed for emergencies, they have decided to make existing chaos and danger worse by permanently reducing the staff coverage. We have 586 ambulance men in the service. It is proposed to reduce their number by 110 to 476. Seventeen officers are to go and 95 vehicles are to disappear. Of the remaining vehicles, 75 per cent. will have no radios or emergency equipment. That is an insane obscenity when the service is already as bad as I have described.
  Similar reductions are to be made among ambulance controllers. It is now being arranged that unqualified staff should sometimes operate the controls. There is also to be a dilution of staffing and a reduction of training. Those proposals are subject to consultation at the moment. The usual channels of writing letters and holding meetings have proved fruitless. It is as if we are playing with words and that provided that Mr. Caple can find a statistical manipulation or someone else to blame for each complaint all is well.
  There are any amount of examples of dangerous circumstances arising from the poor ambulance service. The House will understand that, when patients die, relatives' wishes for no publicity must be respected. However, there are now two cases when it has been suggested that loss of life was caused by a failure of the service.
  It is wicked to expose ambulance men to the possibility of public blame for failures which are not their fault. When complaints about a failure of the service have been made, the management reply that the slowness of the ambulance's arrival was the responsibility of the crew and that disciplinary action has been taken against them. It then appears that no disciplinary action is taken. It is

  1089
  utterly irresponsible for the management to write such letters. Either late arrival is the fault of the crew—in which case disciplinary action should be taken — or management is perpetrating a blatantly dishonest slander against the crew to cover up for the fact that the crew are worked off their feet and cannot do better. It is all most distressing for the ambulance men.
  Examination of the facts and arguments about what is happening can be lost in the technicalities. I fear that that is what some of those who are responsible aim for. It is a sinister and profoundly disturbing side-issue in this matter that lay trade union officers representing ambulance men have been issued with threats of disciplinary action if they complain publicly about what is being done to the service. That smacks of the police state arriving.
  I conclude by describing precisely what is proposed as an adequate emergency ambulance service at two crucial times of the day in my area. From midnight to 8 am— eight hours when factories, shipyards and service workers are working night shifts, people are coming home from clubs, and many people are going to work early in the morning — the entire coverage is provided by two ambulances from Sunderland ambulance station, one from Herrington, one from Washington, one from Hebburn, one from Jarrow and one from South Shields. For hon. Members not familiar with the geography of the area, the simplest way to explain it is to tell the House that seven ambulances will provide the entire coverage for the population of five parliamentary constituencies.
  From 6 pm until midnight, which is an even busier period, there will be only one extra emergency ambulance in the Sunderland area, which will be stationed at Sunderland. There will then be eight ambulances to cover the population of five parliamentary constituencies. The figures are explained by using statistics and averages. We were told that the average number of call-outs measured during a period were only two an hour, so that we need only two ambulances; but an average of two can mean between zero and eight call-outs in an hour. It will be hard luck even if only three ambulances are required when the new arrangements begin.
  The position is that of the sorcerer's apprentice. It is a combination of manic bureaucrats running riot in a scenario of an obsession with cuts created by the Government. The Minister has the opportunity now to step in and to halt the madness. If he does not, when the inevitable, unnecessary loss of life occurs, there will be no doubt about where the final responsibility lies.
  10.17 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. John Patten): The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Clay) said that I have an opportunity. I certainly have an opportunity to thank him for raising the matter and to say that his speech was forceful. I am sure that his constituents, if they read the record, will realise how forceful it was. I also have the opportunity to invite him to write to me personally about any of the cases that have caused him disturbance. Without prior information, I cannot reply to the matters that he raised tonight. I also have the opportunity to tell the hon. Gentleman that the use of words such as "murder" and
  1090
  "obscene", and allegations about the existence of a police state in Northumberland, of all places, has not helped him to make his case.
  I shall make my case by addressing the hon. Gentleman's attention to some general principles and then considering the facts as we see them. Ambulance men who provide a dedicated service in the NHS do great service to the country, but that service should always be examined critically not only to see what it provides but to see how it can be provided more effectively. I was pleased to learn that the Northern regional health authority had undertaken a review of the Northumbria ambulance service. Final decisions on many aspects of the new service have yet to be settled, but it is encouraging to me and my colleagues in the Elephant and Castle to see a health authority tackling its reviews sensibly. I hope that all health authorities are srutinising their activities not simply to see what they provide but to see how they can provide their services more efficiently, putting people and patients first. The NHS exists primarily for patients, not for its employees or for trade unionists. Nor does it exist for Ministers who make speeches about the service.
  The hon. Gentleman is aware of the background to the present plans which the regional health authority has produced for the Northumbria ambulance service, but I do not think he has clearly understood the fact that the authority has a twofold aim. First, it wishes to improve the service to patients and, secondly, it wishes to provide a more cost-effective service. The two aims go hand in hand. The more efficient the service, the better it is for the patient.
  The scheme will provide three divisions and two tiers. The RHA's proposals would sub-divide the service into three divisions, each headed by a divisional officer. The three divisions would relate to support services, communications and operations. At the same time, there would be a rationalisation of ambulance stations, with a concentration of the ambulance services in south-east Northumberland at Ashington and Seaton Delaval and those to the west of Newcastle at Blaydon. Hexham and Throckley. The new proposals are expected to save, in a full year, the considerable sum of £1·6 million. The money will stay within the NHS to be used for better patient care within our record overall expenditure on the NHS.
  It ill behoves the hon. Gentleman to suggest that this rationalisation is the result of cuts. It is the result of a long and detailed examination of the ambulance service in Northumbria which has been carried out over a number of years with the aim of providing a better service. The proposals are not all concerned with saving money. The NHS will certainly benefit from the more streamlined service, but, at the same time, ambulance staff in the area will benefit from a greatly improved productivity bonus scheme.
  It is proposed that in most of Northumbria there will be a two-tier ambulance service separating the control of the emergency service from that of the non-emergency service. It is a most interesting scheme, and will be very effective. Tiering or separating the two elements of the service for day-to-day operation has always caused some controversy, but it is becoming commonplace in many of the larger services in this country. Its critics rarely claim, as the hon. Gentleman has claimed, that it will adversely affect the emergency service. They suggest that the routine work will suffer from either an increase in costs or a reduction in service provided.
  Mr. Clay: I chose to speak tonight about the emergency services, but I have given a number of examples of ways in which routine services were being adversely affected. People in the area are concerned as much about the routine services as about the emergency services. I have referred to cases of outpatients waiting for an ambulance all day and not being told that that ambulance had been sent elsewhere.
  Mr. Patten: I have already offered to investigate any cases which the hon. Gentleman may refer to.
  One of the advantages of the two-tier system is that all ambulance crews can be more effectively and specifically trained for their tasks. There will be much less risk of the service being unable to respond satisfactorily to a real emergency. What makes the Northumbria proposal especially welcome is that it is intended to reap the advantages and yet reduce the resources needed by making considerable savings on operational costs.
  I can reassure the hon. Gentleman and his constituents that standards must be, and will be, maintained. The essential standard against which to measure the performance of any ambulance service in responding to an emergency call — and the hon. Gentleman, no doubt quite rightly, highlighted the emergency service—is the time that it takes for an ambulance to reach the scene. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman mentioned that several times. Of course, it is equally essential to have well-trained crews using well-equipped and up-to-date ambulances.
  The appropriate treatment of the patient at the scene of the accident, or in the ambulance on the way to hospital, is also vital in those critical moments, and so speed is of the essence. There are nationally agreed standards for the speed of response that should be attained by all services. Of course, they are tighter for metropolitan services than for county services. It is worth mentioning the standards and criteria that are set. In metropolitan services, it is expected that 95 per cent. of all calls should be responded to within 14 minutes. This information is important for the hon. Gentleman, because it will enable him to balance his complaints against the expected standards. The county standard requires 95 per cent. of calls to be answered within 20 minutes. The Northumbria ambulance service would continue to meet the standard required in metropolitan Sunderland. In addition, the regional health authority believes that all those served by it, including those in the outlying parts of Northumbria, are entitled to the same standard of service.
  Mr. Clay rose——
  Mr. Patten: I shall certainly give way again, although it prevents me from answering fully all the hon. Gentleman's points.
  Mr. Clay: I am familiar with the guidelines and I know that 95 per cent. of calls should be answered within 14 minutes. But if among the remaining 5 per cent. there is a case that involves a delay of 25 minutes resulting in loss of life—as ambulancemen allege happens in the area—it would appear not to matter whether or not the national regulations have been met, because the fact is that there is unnecessary loss of life. That is what concerns people.
  Mr. Patten: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has refined his language and is now speaking of allegations rather than certainties with regard to loss of life in his area. I can only repeat my invitation to the hon. Gentleman to write to me and give me full details of the cases that involved those allegations. I shall have them looked into quickly and will reply to him as soon as possible.
  It is important to realise that these plans have not been conceived in haste, or imposed on the ambulance service from outside. They are nothing whatever to do with any financial problems that the regional health authority may have now, or have had in the past. They are the result of long and careful study, and are the culmination of years of intensive review within the service, with the aim of providing a better ambulance service in the area.
  It is worth pointing out several of the things that the hon. Gentleman ignored, such as the many savings that will come from the introduction of computer-assisted planning and scheduling of the more routine work, and the closing of unnecessary and inappropriately sited ambulance stations. The Northumbria ambulance service is quite confident that these changes, coupled with the very important productivity improvements that are linked to the bonus scheme for staff, will produce a more reliable non-emergency service and a more professional level of service overall.
  Many critics of the Northumbria proposals judge them against the existing service. I think that that is a mistake. One has to stand back from the existing service. The regional health authority has done that, and has consdered the service objectively from the patients viewpoint, which is what a modern Health Service should do all the time. It has not said, "How can we use the existing staff and vehicles?", or started from there. Instead, it has assessed patients' needs, and has gone on to look at ways and means of meeting them. Critics have also spoken — I understand quite misleadingly — about the number of jobs that will be lost.
  The critical question is not the number of jobs that may be lost; it is always the patients and the money available for them. A key question is why the regional health authority ambulance service has been going on for too long with more people and at a greater cost than it needs. The task of a modern health service is to refine the system in the patients' interest. I welcome the initiative taken by the regional health authority in setting up the review of the Northumbria ambulance service, and I am very much encouraged by its businesslike approach to this review.
  The operation of the service is the direct responsibility of the regional health authority. I see no reason to intervene in that, but every reason for examining the disturbing cases and the allegations made by the hon. Gentleman. I should be grateful if he would let me know about them as soon as possible so that I can look into them.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Wakefield): The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lords following took and subscribed the Oath or made the solemn Affirmation:
Julian Thurstan, Viscount Knutsford;
Margaret Susan, Baroness Ryder of Warsaw.

Planning Applications: Timescale
Baroness Lane-Fox: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there has been any improvement in the average time taken by local authorities to determine planning applications.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, there has been a steady and welcome improvement. The latest statistics for January-March this year show 70 per cent. of planning applications in England being determined in eight weeks as against 60 per cent. three years ago. This represents a considerable and sustained effort by most planning authorities.
Baroness Lane-Fox: My Lords. I thank my noble friend for that reply and for the information contained in it. Can my noble friend say how many of these applications refer to housing?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, they are not differentiated quite as much as no doubt my noble friend would wish, but I can tell her that, during the period to which I referred in my original Answer, for housing generally, 93,000 decisions were made in England and, of those, 40,000 were on householder developments and 17,500 on developments of new dwellings.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, will the Minister agree that, although speed is essential, the quality of decisions is equally important?—as in certain cases an authority may reject an application in eight weeks and, therefore, get a good mark for speed, whereas more extended negotiations with the applicant could result in an approved application and reduce the costs and the time involved in appeals.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I would agree with the noble Baroness that the only good decision is the right decision. But I would take issue with her on the subject of speed, because I believe that that has to do with efficiency rather than quality. The credibility of the planning system depends on good decisions being reached quickly. Slow decisions are neither better nor worse.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, on this question of speed, can the noble Lord give the position with regard to appeals? Is he aware that at one stage there was considerable complaint that it took far too long for appeals to be heard because of the shortage of inspectors to hear them? Can he say whether there has been any recruitment of inspectors, and can he confirm that the average time taken for appeals to be heard has also shortened?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, yes, as far as I know there is a full complement of inspectors; but, as I am sure the noble Lord also knows, more and more appeals are being referred to inspectors. The department has introduced a system to help speed up planning appeals. In particular, we have issued a circular upon the subject. We have streamlined the internal procedures and we have introduced a computer to assist in the managment of case work and the collection of statistics. But we are by no means satisfied with the situation, and I do not think that this is a subject upon which one can ever be satisfied until every planning authority turns up 100 per cent. I do not see that happening—not within my lifetime, anyway. But I should like to assure the House that we are continuing to do everything we can to process these appeals speedily.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in this area of delay in granting applications, to which the computer will not be the answer, too many have a say in granting approvals and too many tiers of local government have to be gone through before you receive a practical reply and can get on with the job of building houses, factories, or anything else? Is my noble friend aware that for those reasons one hopes that the Government will proceed with removing at least one of the tiers of government in order to speed up the process?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the tiers of government do not always affect the matter. For example, I notice that in the Isles of Scilly in the last six months they have improved from 89.8 per cent. of applications settled within eight weeks to 100 per cent. I do not think that that has anything at all to do with tiers of government.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister swept so broadly aside any argument for a more lengthy time for applications. Will he not agree that there are certain cases where, if the applicant can get together with the authority and the developer and there can be further negotiations, an approved application can then be arranged? Would he not accept that that surely is much better than a decision going to appeal and the whole process being started all over again, with the costs and time involved? Is the noble Lord aware that, as I made quite clear, I am not making a general case for it: I am saying that there are cases where flexibility ought to be encouraged?
Lord Skelmersdale: Yes, my Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness; and, of course, this is one of the points that was in the circular to which I referred.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, will the noble Lord ensure that his words "tiers of Government" are correctly spelt in the Official Report?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I will give the House that assurance.
Baroness Lane-Fox: My Lords, referring to my supplementary question, can my noble friend say whether it is possible to let us know what proportion of the planning applications for housing are for special accommodation for disabled people?
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords. in my reply to my noble friend's first supplementary question I said that the categories were not as well defined as she or I would like. But I have no reason to suppose that planning applications in these particular cases should take longer to deal with. If my noble friend or, indeed, any Member of your Lordships' House has any specific case to which they would like to bring my attention, I shall of course be delighted to take it up.

Insolvency Malpractices
3.8 p.m.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the existing law is being fully used to counter malpractices in repayment problems reported to the insolvency branch of the Department of Trade; and to what extent action has been taken during the past 12 months.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, appropriate action is taken by the Insolvency Service in respect of all allegations of malpractice reported to it and no particular area is singled out for special attention. Earlier this year the Office of Fair Trading began a wide study of prepayment problems. The findings of that study, when received, will be considered in conjunction with the general review of insolvency law on which a White Paper is expected early next year.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I do not think that the Minister said whether or not the Government were satisfied with the progress being made. I wonder whether he has details of the written reply that was given to me on 27th July, stating that only seven disqualification orders had been made under Section 9 of the Insolvency Act 1976. This supports the view that the existing law is not adequate to deal with the delinquent director problem. Is the Minister aware that this view is held by the National Consumer Council, the Consumers' Association, the Office of Fair Trading and I think by members of the Cork Committee? Are the Government satisfied?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I always knew that there would be one part of the noble Baroness's main Question that I would not satisfactorily be able to answer. The Government, your Lordships, and,
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indeed, I are eternally grateful to the noble Baroness for the interest that she shows in these matters; and, above all, for her tremendous work in the very complicated matter of the Cork Report, which I shall forbear from referring to today. Indeed, I have details of the last oral sally that the noble Baroness and I had in your Lordships' House, which was on Bastille Day—14th July. I do not have details of the written reply, which is an error on my part; nor do I have details of Section 9 of 1976 Act. But I stress to the noble Baroness and to your Lordships what I stressed in July this year: the Government are aware of the problems which are raised by the noble Baroness. The Office of Fair Trading is also aware of these special problems in the consumer area. Indeed, the report of the Office of Fair Trading is expected later this year.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I know that the Minister really does wish to help, and I thank him for his remarks—and one day I might get a good answer. However, I wonder whether he would look at the written reply that I received on 27th July to which I referred. Referring to about the last sentence of his original reply to the statement made by the Under-Secretary of State, Mr. Fletcher, about the White Paper being published early in the new year, may I ask the Minister whether I am correct in thinking that he said that that White Paper would be on certain aspects of the Cork Report? If I am correct, could he say what those aspects are?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I shall certainly examine in detail the written reply which was given by my noble friend. As I do not have it in front of me I am not aware of certain aspects of the Cork Report which will be covered by the White Paper, but I understood that the White paper was to be very comprehensive. If it covers 90 per cent. or 95 per cent. of the matters referred to in the Cork Report—doubtless there will be, or there may be, gaps—I hope that the White Paper will be in its usual comprehensive form.

Balance of Trade: Manufactured Goods
3.11 p.m.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the balance of trade in manufactured goods in the first three quarters of 1983.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, in the first three quarters of 1983 the United Kingdom's balance of trade in manufactured goods is estimated to have been in deficit by £ 1¾ billion.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House what was the last year in which the balance of trade in manufactured goods for Britain was in deficit? Can he also confirm that, as as result of the Government's policy over the last four years, what they inherited as a surplus of £5 billion a year has now

629
sunk to a deficit, and that during the same period the employees in manufacturing industry have declined from over 7 million to round about 5 million?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I could not confirm the figures of the noble Lord's last suplementary without further consultation, but may I write to him on that point? So far as the noble Lord's second question was concerned, he referred to the figures in 1979. I could not give him a definite answer on that. I can tell him, though, that in 1980, 1981 and 1982 the United Kingdom had a visible balance-of-payments surplus of £1.2 billion, £3 billion, and £2.1 billion. We regard that as extremely encouraging, and indeed a tribute to British industry. So far as the noble Lord's first supplementary question is concerned, research undertaken by the Government has been unable to unearth the two precise years, although we understand that 1918 and 1931 may have been the years to which the noble Lord was addressing his mind—I stress "may have been".
Lord Soames: My Lords, can my my noble friend tell us what was the productivity per man employed in industry last year compared with 1979?
Lord Lyell: I am sorry, my Lords, I am not able to give my noble friend that precise figure, but I shall find it and be in written touch with my noble friend as speedily as possible.
Lord Beswick: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the noble Lord, Lord Soames, should take into account that productivity per man is not a question of a man running around and working harder; it is a question of investment?
Lord Soames: It is a question of both, my Lords.
Lord Beswick: Would the noble Lord comment on the fact that reported in the press today was a statement of the chairman of British American Tobacco explaining why they are proposing to put £730 million in Eagle Star, and saying that they examined the situation and decided that the financial sector in this country was the most profitable? Is this not one of the most devastating criticisms of the British economy?
Lord Soames: Why?
Lord Beswick: As a result of Government policy it is much more profitable to dabble in money than to make actual goods.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, the remarks which are attributed to the chairman of British American Tobacco, alas, I have not had an opportunity of reading yet, since I was attempting to struggle through the figures for this particular question all morning, but I thank the noble Lord and I shall certainly read them. However, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and indeed your Lordships would regard the comments of the chairman as being congratulatory to the financial sector of the United Kingdom economy, and indeed we would wish to add our congratulations to that sector.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, does not the noble Lord the Minister realise that his own record of productivity about which we have just heard is about the poorest in the country?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I take that on board, but of course with this Government we have a high record. I intend to improve on my personal part in that record later today.
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that in so far as we have a small deficit in manufactured goods in terms of trade today it stems directly from a drop in our share of world markets from nearly 20 per cent. in 1960 to under 10 per cent. in 1978? Under this Administration and the previous one, would he agree that the slide has now been arrested and that we are starting to regain our share notwithstanding the world recession? Would he further agree that we now have a chance to start to catch up in prosperity the 13 nations that overtook us in the 1960s and 1970s?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, as is normally the case my noble friend is absolutely correct in four particular cases. I would wish, and the Government would wish, to thank him for his support, and indeed for pointing out these encouraging facts.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, may I try to ask the noble Lord a question which he can answer? Is it not the case that this is the first year since the Industrial Revolution that Britain is in deficit in its manufacturing trade? Is it not further the case that. notwithstanding the boasts of the Government about the so-called recovery based on a 6 per cent. increase in retail sales, it is demonstrably caused by a rapid increase in imports over exports; and that this is at least partly attributable to the massive outflow of capital from this country to our competitors rather than an investment in manufacturing industry in this country to supply the demands of our retailers?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's last question is definitely no. So far as the noble Lord's first question was concerned, I would stress to him and to your Lordships that it is not necessary, or indeed even desirable, to have a surplus on trade in every single commodity. As the noble Lord, and indeed your Lordships will know, the structure of the economy of the United Kingdom has naturally changed and is changing with the advent of such things as North Sea oil; and indeed we only need to look at my part of the country in Aberdeen to see that. Secondly, we now enjoy surpluses on trade in oil and indeed on services, and occasionally we enjoy surpluses on other commodities.
Lord George-Brown: My Lords, is the Minister aware—
Lord Alport: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House—
Several noble Lords: Lord George-Brown!
Lord Alport: I think it is the turn of this side of the House, my Lords. May I ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House whether the discussion that has taken place over this Question is not entirely unsuitable for Question Time since it has involved the expression of a series of opinions which have no relation to the obtaining of information from the Minister? Is it not extremely unfair on the Minister that he should be asked to answer a small debate of this sort without having proper opportunity of preparing for it?
Lord George-Brown: My Lords, while the noble Lord the Minister is having his consultations—
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene and I shall certainly await with eagerness the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown. Perhaps I may attempt to reply to the kind supplementary question of my noble friend. I am grateful for his support. I regret that some of the questions have gone a little wide of the original Question on the Order Paper. I have done my best. I have undertaken to write to my noble friend Lord Soames. If I have missed any details, then certainly I shall write to any noble Lord to whom I have promised to write.
Lord George-Brown: My Lords, the simple point that I wish to put to the Minister—
Several noble Lords: Ask! Ask a question!
Lord George-Brown: My Lords, if you put it to the noble Lord, then you are asking him. Is not the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and to many others who intervened, that this country cannot survive on a financial and leisure basis only? Is it not true that we have to he a manufacturing-based country? Thirdly, we have a deficit on our manufacturing base not just because we are not investing but—should he not have said to the noble Lord. Lord Beswick?—because the trade unions by their practices are refusing us permission to make use of the investment we are making. Should he not invite the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, to use his influence to bring the trade unions to understand that restrictive practices are also at the bottom of our problem?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in any putative conversation between old friends, the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and the noble Lord. Lord George-Brown. But I stress to the noble Lord. Lord George-Brown, and to the House, that our industrial output—indeed, our manufacturing exports—have risen from, in 1981, £37 billion to nearly £39 billion in 1982; and. on 1983 figures, our exports are at the rate of £40 billion for this year. I believe that those figures provide firm encouragement for British industry. As a Government we are very grateful for their help in supporting our trading profession. As for the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, wondering whether I would be able to deviate from any of the answers on trade, certainly I believe that I should not this afternoon.
The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw): My Lords, perhaps noble Lords feel that we have had a very good run on this Question.

Picketing
3.23 p.m.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the draft Code of Practice on Picketing issued under the Employment Act 1980 is being observed.
The Minister of State, Privy Council Office and Minister for the Arts (The Earl of Gowrie): My Lords, there is evidence of a considerable reduction in the incidence of secondary picketing and other abuses which led to the introduction of both the 1980 Employment Act and the code. I regret to say that there have been some instances of large-scale picketing which clearly conflict with the code's guidance on numbers; but it is of course for the police to judge in each case whether or not the number of pickets constitutes a threat to public order.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the code says that pickets and their organisers should ensure that, in general. the number of pickets does not exceed six? Has he noticed that in the Mercury case and other cases the number of pickets has been in hundreds rather than six? As many people are trying to reduce tension and because the general atmosphere of industrial relations has improved over the years, would he consider, now that legislation is pending, whether there are any further steps that might be included that would reduce the risk of violence owing to the excessive numbers?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I sympathise with my noble friend's desire to see a continued industrial calm overall, while I share his anxieties where there are breaches of good practice as outlined in the code in terms of picketing. However, the evidence from academic research, I am advised, shows that picket organisers generally pay attention to the code's guidance, and that usually the numbers are in single figures.

Roads (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provisionas regard roads in Scotland, and for connected purposes. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time—(Lord Gray of Contin.)
On Question. Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Fourth Clerk at the Table (Judicial)
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That this House do approve the appointment by the Lord Chancellor, pursuant to the Clerk of the Parliaments Act 1824, of James Ashton Valiance White, Esquire, to be Fourth Clerk at the Table (Judicial) in place of John Victor Duncombe Webb, Esquire. deceased.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Deputy Chairmen of Committees
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, on behalf of the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Alport be added to the panel of Lords to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session.—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Lotteries (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

Sheep Variable Premium (Protection of Payments) (Amendment) Order 1983
3.27 p.m.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead): My Lords, I beg to move that the Sheep Variable Premium (Protection of Payments) (Amendment) Order 1983, a copy of which was laid before Parliament on 18th July 1983, be approved. I must apologise for bringing this statutory instrument on to the Order Paper at short notice. This order enables us to give effect to a Community regulation which requires all sheep on which sheep variable premium is paid to be slaughtered or exported within 21 days of certification for the premium. The Community regulation came into effect on 1st August. The order, which has been operative from the same date, provides the necessary powers to enforce it in Great Britain. It has been framed to cause the minimum disturbance to traditional patterns of livestock marketing in this country. The existing requirement that people buying or selling certified sheep should keep records has been extended and there is a new requirement that purchasers of certified sheep must be notified of the slaughter requirement attaching to these animals. The purchaser then has the responsibility for ensuring that the animals are slaughtered (or exported) within the specified period. Records are available to enforcement officers within the constraints set down in the parent order. Offences for breach of the rules and penalties are specified in the Agriculture Act 1957.
Concern was expressed at the time the slaughter rule was introduced that it could lead to depressed market prices this autumn. We secured from the Commission an undertaking to review the rule if it led to market distortions. We are monitoring market movements closely and will draw the Commission's attention to any untoward developments which we believe can be
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ascribed to the slaughter rule. I ask the House to approve this order.
Moved, That the order laid before the House on 18th July be approved.—(Lord Belstead.)
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, we thank the noble Lord, Lord Belstead. We are sorry that he was rushed into this at short notice and I personally would like to thank him for getting it on to the Order Paper a little early to suit me. Variable premium, as we all know, is valuable in the livestock production of cattle and sheep in this country. There is no doubt that the system with sheep where a farmer could buy sheep out of the ring after they have been certified and keep them for a considerable time to improve on them—or to gamble on the price, for that matter—was one which was quite open to a lot of malpractice. I think that this order is right.
I suppose it is right that records should be kept for a longer period, but three years is such a long time to ask people to keep records. Farmers are not prone to looking after records and such things. Probably because this order is valuable to the livestock trade in this country we should put up with it. I see no reason for holding it up, and we give it our blessing.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Data Protection Bill [H.L.]
3.30 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton): My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time. As no noble Lord has tabled an amendment to it, it looks as though our work on this complicated measure, now making no less than its eighth appearance before us for consideration, is beginning to draw to a not unwelcome close. We have spent so much time on it already that I do not intend to detain your Lordships long with it now. I shall not rehearse either the debates we have held or the decisions we have come to. I wish merely to say "Thank you" to the House as a whole and to individual noble Lords in all parts of the House, not only for the many hours we have spent on this measure in the Chamber but for the immense care taken with the details of the work.
That extends far beyond the time actually spent in the Chamber. It has involved acquiring a great deal of knowledge from a wide variety of sources. It has involved much correspondence, much consultation, endless essays in drafting and re-drafting and the careful distillation of all this effort into explanatory speeches. To these the Government have listened with care. From them they have learned much, and by them, in many instances, this Bill has been improved even beyond the condition to which we had brought it while it was passing through all its stages in this House during the last Parliament. That is a measure of the effectiveness of your Lordships' House.
Ministers are served by their departments and are supplied with cogent arguments in the course of duty. I readily record my grateful acknowledgement of all the midnight work done on my behalf and on behalf of your Lordships as a whole by my own very expert team. But the rest of your Lordships toil, often far into

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the night, bringing a huge volume of non-governmental experience and wisdom to bear upon the legislative anvil. If the process generates some heat, that is to be expected. Your Lordships have worked very hard on this instrument. I believe it is now a great deal better as a result, and I ask your Lordships to give it its third and final reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Elton.)
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for his own patience, courtesy and, if I may say so, immense conscientiousness in leading this Bill and steering it through the House. Also, if I may, I thank my noble friends and noble Lords in all parts of the House who have made their contributions to it. I am afraid that my temptation to do a little rehearsing is (the noble Lord will not be surprised to hear) irresistible, at any rate to me, if to no one else.
On Third Reading of the Bill way back in March, 1983, when this highly unlovable Bill first came before us, I ventured to say that, while on the Government's part there was an intention to comply with the convention on data protection, there was also a determination that the compliance would he minimal rather than generous. Since then, as the noble Lord has said, there have been many important changes made to the Bill. I agree with him that the value of this House as a revising Chamber has been very significantly proved. Several improvements to the Bill have been achieved by amendments put down not only by the Opposition but also from different parts of the Chamber. Nevertheless, it is sadly the case that there are still serious deficiencies in the Bill as it goes on its way to another place, despite the efforts of the Opposition and other Members to put the matter right.
As to improvements, I think it would be less than generous if I were not to note some of those which have been effected and accepted by the Government. There is an inclusion in Clause 3 of persons to represent data subjects on the data protection tribunal. There is the amendment to Clause 17 to ensure that the Official Secrets Act shall not preclude the registrar from disclosing information if disclosure is necessary for the fulfilment of the registrar's duties under the Bill. There is the amendment to Clause 22 extending the right of compensation to those who dispute the accuracy of data. Then, the amendment to Clause 24 modifying the clause in such a way that the court can now order data to be rectified and erased without the data subject having to prove that he has suffered any damage.
But more significant was the amendment to Clause 27, which the Opposition achieved, in the national security exemption provisions of the Bill. A certificate of exemption on the grounds of national security now has to be signed by a Minister of the Crown. As the Bill was introduced by the Government originally, it would have sufficed if it were signed by or on behalf of a Minister of the Crown, with no definition as to the status of such a Minister.
But perhaps the most important concession made by the Government after prolonged pressure—for
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which concession we are grateful—was their decision before we resumed after the Recess to omit control of immigration from Clause 28 and from the list of purposes in respect of which data could be withheld. That provision had caused intense suspicion and apprehension among members of the ethnic communities.
On Clause 28 as it now stands, it may well be that in another place the exemption of data held for the somewhat wide and ill-defined category of prevention of crime will be the subject of further consideration. Having expressed gratification at the removal of the paragraph from Clause 28(1), nevertheless the retention of Clause 28(2) has still left what we deem to be a serious flaw in the Bill. The result of its inclusion, if it becomes law, is that it could well mean that highly confidential and sensitive information could be secretly disclosed to the police, the Inland Revenue or the Customs and Excise without any indication at all on the data protection register that anything of this kind was even possible. That is perhaps why its provsions have been called by the Lindop Committee "a palpable fraud on the public"—severe words indeed.
When we last debated this matter I quoted a letter from Sir Douglas Black, as chairman of the inter-professional working group on access to personal health information, supporting the amendment to Clause 28(2) which my noble friends and I proposed. I have little doubt that this issue will be raised again vigorously in another place. We regret also the refusal of the Government to give way, among other matters (although there is no time to cover the whole ground), on our proposals for a data advisory committee and for advisory codes of practice to be made by the registrar—proposals which were supported in many parts of the House.
I do not propose to detain the House at any length on this matter, which we have traversed hard and long, but I repeat my gratitude to the noble Lord the Minister for his own courtesy and to my noble friend Lord Mishcon and others in various parts of the House. Although heat was raised occasionally, also a great light was cast upon the subject of the debate.
3.40 p.m.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends and myself, I also would like to say a warm "thank you" to the noble Lord the Minister for the care he has always given to the points we have raised during the long proceedings on this Bill both during its previous incarnation and on its latest appearance in this House. We thank him for the immense care that he gave during the Summer Recess to some very important questions of principle which had divided us during the proceedings in Committee before we dispersed.
We were aiming in this legislation to protect the data subject whose private affairs are recorded in an increasing number of computer files—files held by the Inland Revenue, the banks, local authorities, hospitals and many other financial institutions—and whose privacy may be affected by the increasing flow of data between those computers if we do not get this legislation right in the first place. The legislation also was designed to enable us to sign the Council of

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Europe Convention, which the noble Lord mentioned, without which there could have been very serious inhibitions on the flow of data across frontiers and also on the ability of businesses to conduct their affairs where they have computer files in more than one country.
There were several things which worried us when we first saw this Bill. The main one, as the Minister knows, and one which the noble and learned Lord has also discussed, concerned the way in which the Government attempted, so it seemed, through this Bill to open the way for increased flows of personal data from all those other computers that I have mentioned into the ones under the ownership of the Home Office and used for the purposes of immigration control. Also important, though not quite so important, was the way in which subject access was to be denied in the case of personal data held for any of those purposes.
It was, and still is, our view that what was sought to be done in the original Clause 28 was in contravention of the convention, and we were not convinced by the arguments put forward by the Minister that Article 9 covered what was being attempted. At any rate, I think that the noble Lord the Minister will concede, while he may remain of the same opinion, that there was very good legal advice in favour of the proposition that what was being done in this Bill would have been a serious contravention of the convention, and it was not simply—though this is important—as the noble Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, has mentioned, the intense apprehension and suspicion which have been aroused in the minds of ethnic minorities which led to the removal of those offending clauses.
I agreed with what the noble and learned Lord also has said, that we need to give further thought to the question of disclosures of other kinds under Clause 28(2). I think that in the end we ought to arrive at a state of affairs where the data users are forced to consider at the outset what kinds of disclosures they would make, instead of always making the decision on an ad hoc basis, when they are confronted by the police, of one or other of the examples given by the Minister during the course of our proceedings.
On Clause 29(2) we believe there is need for additional work to be done in another place so that right of access to medical and social records is not left entirely to the discretion of the Minister and to orders which, while they would be considered by both Houses of Parliament, as the Minister has explained, would be unamendable and might be unsatisfactory in some respects, without giving your Lordships the chance to do anything about it. At the same time, we recognise that immense improvements have been made to the Bill and I shall not recapitulate those which have been mentioned by the noble and learned Lord. We are immensely grateful to the Government for listening to all the points that have been made by Members of the Opposition and also by noble Lords on the other side of the House, and not least by the noble Lord, Lord Digby. We regret that some of his further advice, particularly regarding a data protection advisory committee and the institution of a code of conduct, has not been observed but we hope that perhaps another place will follow up those points.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: My Lords, I think the Bill is better than when it first appeared but it could be a great deal better than it is, and I hope that it will be by the time it leaves the other place. Meanwhile, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for his courtesy during our discussions.
3.45 p.m.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, I should also like to add my thanks to my noble friend the Minister and indeed to my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, who, particularly the first time the Bill came before us, had a great deal to do with it, rather more than he did latterly. I think that the Government have been quite remarkable in regard to the degree to which they have listened to arguments for the amendments which have been put forward not only from this side but also from the opposite side. It has been very heartening that they should have done that. It has also impressed me greatly that some of the points on which my noble friend appeared obdurate were at a later stage the subject of amendments that he himself provided to meet the arguments which had been raised. This shows a breadth of thought on the part of the Government and of the noble Lord, and I like to think that perhaps it is also due to the good advice received from his advisers.
There is not very much more to be done to this Bill from the point of view of industry. Several noble Lords have said that there is more to be done in another place. On the whole, I think that the points which I have put forward—all the ones that reasonably could be—have been accepted, or well argued. I again thank my noble friend for his understanding and for the great care that he has given to this Bill.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, it would be ungracious of me, having taken part in all the seven previous sessions of debate, not to pay my tribute to the noble Lord the Minister for having accomplished what I, in particular, have been most anxious should be done right from the Second Reading the first time round.
May I just say to him that perhaps it is not he who should be asked to listen in future to the pleas of communities like the ethnic minorities, because I believe he has been doing so all the time. But I would ask him to use his influence, and if possible to strengthen his influence, in the Home Office to get other Ministers to listen to him, because I am assuming—I trust rightly—that he has been putting the case that has been so well argued here by my noble and learned friend from the Front Bench and, I would add, also from the noble Lord, Lord Avebury.
I was a little concerned when he gave as the reason for changing his mind, after the seventh session on Clause 28, that he still did not consider that the inclusion of the phrase "control of immigration" was one which should lead to any unease among the ethnic minorities. He seemed to suggest at one time that it was the debates in this House which were raising these fears among the members of those communities. That has never been the case, and I hope that he and his fellow Ministers will recognise that it has never been the case. We have been putting those fears as they were expressed to us. We have not been at any time raising

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those fears. The fact that we agreed there was a reason for fear certainly did not provoke the fears in the first place: we were the channel through which these fears were expressed. I hope that in any future legislation this lesson will be learned by the Home Office and that it will not require the accident of a general election to start the Bill again before it is possible to remove such offensive references.
If anything has been learned by the Home Office through the debates in the House on this Bill on the very delicate subject of the sensitivity of the ethnic minorities. then it has been worthwhile. Like my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench. I am still concerned about Clause 28. I am still worried that the phrase "the prevention or detection of crime" is a very loose one that can he interpreted in so many different ways that it is dangerous in law; but that will have now to be left to the other place.
All I would say to the noble Lord is that I certainly have appreciated his continuous courtesy in argument. even if not the logic of his argument. I trust that the experience that he has had during this long period of going through the Bill twice will have reinforced him, in his role within the Home Office, in convincing his colleagues that race relations can be very seriously damaged unless the sensitivity of the ethnic minorities in this country is recognised when legislation is first drafted.
3.52 p.m.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, the atmosphere of a Third Reading in your Lordships' House is so pleasant, and I cannot resist the temptation to indulge in some of this pleasant atmosphere by expressing my own thanks to the noble Lord the Minister for his continuous courtesy and help. On these occasions one remembers those worthy organisations which, even though they may not have the adeptness of the Civil Service which serves the Minister, help to give those in Opposition the chance of an authoritative brief when they speak. I am thinking in this connection, as indeed does my noble and learned friend Lord Elwyn-Jones, of organisations like Justice, the National Council of Civil Liberties and several others which, with great sincerity, put forward reasoned argument which your Lordships heard in this House as a result of their efforts.
I promise to be brief in order not to ruin the atmosphere of a Third Reading, and I merely want to add one general observation of deep regret that this Bill will leave the House for another place with such a wide duty of registration cast upon people who were never meant to come within the formalities of this Bill. I remember that on a previous occasion I threw most gently at the noble Lord the Minister, almost as though we were playing in the nets and not on the cricket field itself, an example which was given to me by the Law Society, to which I also owe a debt of gratitude, and not only for what they have done for me on this occasion. That example was of a schoolboy who was not a member of a society or of a cricket team but who, being most interested in that game, put through the school computer the names of the first eleven and the second eleven, and the runs that they had respectively scored or the wickets that they had managed to take
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during the season. As I read the Bill, and as those who are much more learned in the law than I shall ever be read the Bill, it seemed that that innocent insertion into the school computer would make it necessary for the school to register the computer. This could never have been intended.
But this is not the time for argument. This is a time, I suppose, for a plea to another place to do something which this House was unable to do. If I may repeat what my noble and learned friend, the Minister and others have said, much has been done in this House to improve the Bill, which has largely been the result of the Minister's receptive mind, and for that we are grateful.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, noble Lords have shown great restraint in not going over the arguments that have taken place previously, and I shall certainly not break that restraint except parenthetically to regret that my noble and learned friend did not close with a little more about the considerable achievement of himself and others in encouraging the Government to remove the immigration exclusion clause. But at this stage of the Bill, as it goes to another place, it is not inappropriate to reflect about the position which it will have, together with other legislation which is about to go before the other place and come before us in due course.
This is a reactive Bill and not (in the horrible modern phrase) a proactive Bill. It is reacting in the most narrow sense to the necessity for us to comply with the European Convention. But in the wider sense it is reacting to something which has been taking place over a very considerable time, without necessarily having any reflection in legislation; that is, the increasing power of data processing machines (if that is still the correct description) not only to assemble and analyse data but also to transmit them, and the ability of those machines to do this for data which affect all of us as individuals—the "data subjects", as the Bill puts it.
I happen to believe that the concessions which were made on Clause 28 of the Bill, removing the immigration exclusion, were quite inadequate, because I believe that the exemptions which still exist for, in particular, the prevention of crime, which can mean very much more than the detection and apprehension of offenders, which is already in the clause, still permit far too great a power for, in particular, police computers, and also for many other Government computers and Government data banks with information about individuals.
The only reason why I am saying this now—because I can see that I could be accused of repeating arguments, which I do not want to do—is that this Bill will be going through concurrently with the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill. It is not the role of this Bill to curb the power of the state; that is not its primary intention. But it is the purpose of this Bill to see to it that that part of the power of the state which is increasingly infringing the rights of individuals, that part which is due to the increased power of data processing machines, is brought into the sphere of general control.
One of the purposes of the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill ought to be not just to define more

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clearly the conditions under which the police operate in their relationships with the general public, but also to see to it that the internal operations of the police are consistent with the ideals of personal liberty which are expressed in the European Convention and in the data protection principles set out in this legislation. I hope that, as the other House considers both Bills and as this House considers the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill in due course, the wider interest reflected in both pieces of legislation, which is not fully reflected in the wording of either—that wider interest being the interest of the individual in relation to the state—will never be far from our minds. With that, I, too, should like to express my appreciation for the courtesy and consideration with which the noble Lord, Lord Elton, has dealt with all the matters which have been before him.
Lord Swinfen: My Lords, may I very briefly and very quickly congratulate my noble friend on the skill with which he has taken this rather complicated legislation through this House, and on the considerable courtesy with which he has dealt with all the arguments. However, may I ask the noble Lord to ensure that his department keeps an eye on the computer, which is a very new tool and is developing the whole time, in order to make certain that once this Bill becomes law any amendment to the law in the future, because of the development of computers, is brought in as and when necessary.
Lord Elton: My Lords, I am most grateful for the way your Lordships have responded to my Motion. Every single one of your Lordships has been kind enough to thank me, as I have thanked your Lordships. I am grateful to all noble Lords. I am particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Mottistone and the noble Lord. Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, who were the only two who did not say "but" after they had said "thank you". I shall not reply to the series of "buts" in detail because I take it that they are addressed to another place and that they will be read there with the appropriate interest. However, it is fair to say in answer to the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, that certainly this is a reactive Bill in some respects because it reacts to a present situation. But it is—I hesitate to use the word, his dislike of which I share—proactive in another sense, in that throughout we have had to bear in mind the very rapid and quite unforeseeable developments which may take place in the technological field in which we are acting. I take on board the point of my noble friend Lord Swinfen as to that.
As to the amendments which have been made, they have been copious. There has been a remarkable balance, although it has not perhaps always seemed that way to noble Lords opposite, between the points we have taken from different parts of the House. In doing the sums we must also remember the very large number of amendments which were taken on board between the Parliaments. So we have achieved quite a lot.
Our aims throughout have been threefold in principle: the protection of the individual, the protection of the community, and the furtherance of commerce and trade. It is clear that the whole Bill is
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intended for the protection of the individual, right from the point of registration, subject access and correction, notably helped by the amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. As to the protection of the community, I cannot, I think, pass by the further repetition by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, of the quotation from the Lindop Committee's report which refers to Clause 28 as "a palpable fraud on the subject". We want more light than heat now. If we had put through this Parliament a Bill which was supposed to protect the individual and which did so at the expense of the community by shackling the powers of enforcement, particularly of the police, that would have been a fraud. I feel that a just balance has been struck here, so I make no apology. But I take note of the point of view expressed by the noble and learned Lord, as I take note of the point of view expressed by those who sit on the Liberal Benches, concerning the individual. The furtherance of commerce and trade will now be taken in hand, when we have finally enacted this Bill, by signature of the convention.
In conclusion, I can only say to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, first that the last general election was no more an accident than the next one will be and, secondly, that there is complete and mutual confidence between all Ministers at the Home Office. Therefore, it is not necessary for me to exert myself in any way to see that right prevails therein. I am deeply grateful to your Lordships for your patience which has extended over very many months.
Bill read a third time; an amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

Petroleum Royalties (Relief) Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and to be printed.

Public Bills: Procedure
4.5 p.m.
Lord Diamond Lord Diamond rose to call attention to the need for the House to consider its procedure on Public Bills with a view to providing that decisions on amendments in Committee should be taken only by Lords selected by the House on the recommendation of the Committee of Selection, having regard to their qualifications and to the proportion of the votes cast for the main political parties at the last General Election; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper, a Motion which shortly sets out to try to remove one of the major grounds of criticism against your Lordships' House and to do it in an area where we spend most of our time and do most of our useful work. This is a matter which was due to come up and, indeed, was one of the first casualties of the dissolution of the last Parliament. Therefore, my first act must be to thank the Government for reintroducing it so quickly after the new Parliament has started its work. I must also add my personal gratitude to the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, who is able to spend time listening to the debate and who is to take part in it.
I hope I do not need to say that I am one of the foremost admirers of your Lordships' House. I do not think anyone can fail to be impressed by the enormous ability and wide experience shown by so many of your Lordships. We exercise appropriate powers wisely and well, on the whole, and I believe that we function in a way, drawn partly from self-restraint, partly from sweet reasonableness and partly from convention, which must be the envy of every other similar assembly in the world. But when one thinks of the composition of your Lordships' House, both I and many others present and most people outside this House, and everybody who has considered reform of the House of Lords seriously and reported upon it, find much to criticise. So the question is, what should be done about it?
There are three alternatives. The first one, which springs most readily to mind, is to do nothing. As to that I would merely quote two sources which I respect and which have given very careful consideration to this very question. The first source is the report of the Bow Group on the reform of the House of Lords. What they have to say is:
"Reform of the House of Lords is urgent if the second Chamber of Parliament is to be preserved".
The second authority I would quote is the Conservative committee on reform of the House of Lords, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel. What they said, and what he said, was:
"We do not believe that leaving things just as they are should be considered a viable option".
With regard to the composition of the House the report considered that it was:
"virtually impossible to defend".
I agree with every single word I have quoted. I therefore rule out the option of doing nothing as being in the best interests of your Lordships' House.
The second alternative would therefore be a thoroughgoing reform of this House. That has been attempted; that has been considered. But what is needed for a thoroughgoing reform is a very substantial political will on all sides of both Chambers. In the present climate and in the present situation of some of the parties and their policies, this is clearly not possible for the time being.
We, the Alliance, have set up a joint commission which has recently reported and gone into these questions very fully. It has issued a report, which I commend to your Lordships, which comes to conclusions not so very different in many respects from the conclusions reached by the Conservative committee to which I have already referred. But that is for thoroughgoing reform, and what I am talking about is not that. Indeed, I come straight away to the third alternative, which is one small step and represents some small progress which is within your Lordships' own self-regulatory powers, which can be achieved without the consent of another place. It would, I hope—and as I shall try to demonstrate—not only achieve an advance in our standing with the public, and not only make a considerable step forward in what I might call "democratising" some of the work of your Lordships' House, but would at the same time
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increase the efficiency with which your Lordships conduct the business of this House.
Where does the greatest criticism come from? It comes from those who believe that it is repugnant to the ordinary citizen that some individuals should share in legislation which affects the way in which he conducts his life, purely by virtue of an accident of birth. That is the greatest bone of contention and the greatest criticism. It is the cause of the inbuilt Tory majority in your Lordships' House. The objection to that is a democratic objection.
The situation which arises is that when the Conservative Party is in Government, the Government of the day have the largest say—as indeed they should. But it also happens that whenever any other party is in Government the Conservative Party again has the largest say, because it is so numerous. I recognise that this power is exercised sometimes with understanding and restraint, but that understanding and restraint is not understood by the population as a whole and nor does it exist always. That is a situation which is wholly undemocratic.
That is the major criticism levelled against the composition of your Lordships' House and therefore it is in that area that one should seek to take a modest step forward. When I ask myself what is probably the most valuable work that your Lordships achieve, I believe the agreed answer would be that it is in the field of legislation; the way in which we revise or consider in great detail for the first time Public Bills and other Bills which are put before us—and my Motion refers in particular to Public Bills.
What I seek is a modest step forward, to add a democratic element so as to increase both the value of your Lordships' work and the standing of your Lordships' House in the area in which your Lordships do most of your work and spend most of your time. Statistics which have recently been issued to us all show that over the past three years approximately 50 per cent. of our time has been spent on legislation.
There is at hand an immediate, well-tried solution—the Standing Committee as practised in another House. It has been well tried in another place for a very long time; and as I happened to have been chairman of a number of Standing Committees during some 10 years in another place, it is a procedure with which I became somewhat familiar and one which I can recommend wholeheartedly to your Lordships' House. Most—I imagine, all—of your Lordships are very familiar with that procedure and know that it is not a Standing Committee as its name says but is a Committee selected for each Bill to deal with Committee stage; and its membership is selected on the basis of the qualifications of its members and the composition of the House as a whole. They consider Bills as we consider them as a Committee of the Whole House—an odd phrase, if your Lordships will ponder upon it for a moment. It is a somewhat illogical and self-contradictory phrase.
If we were to consider adopting this procedure for major Public Bills, what we should be doing would be considering them exactly as we do at the moment; with every single peer able to participate, to attend, to speak, and to move amendments—but not to vote. Voting would be restricted to those who are selected be

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the Committee of Selection, in the words of the other place, by virtue of their qualifications and—although I cannot say "having regard to the composition of the House"—having regard to the votes cast at the last general election, as being the nearest approach to a definition of democracy that we can achieve.
If that were done then we will at a stroke show the world outside that your Lordships' House is prepared to go as far as it can in present political circumstances in reforming itself in a way that will reduce the objections felt by people at large about your Lordships' House, which will enable the Government of the day—whichever Government that is—to have the largest say when considering details of legislation and which will at the same time increase our efficiency.
It would of course mean that if one desired to have two or three such Standing Committees sitting at the same time, one could avoid the worst of the "end of term" scramble from which we always suffer when we have too much legislation to deal with properly in detail and avoid carrying out our responsibilities to the full, as we are inevitably compelled so to avoid doing.
For those reasons, I believe that that which I am suggesting is something which your Lordships ought to consider very carefully and very sympathetically indeed. Let me say straight away that it is no part of my intention that we should exclude Cross-Benchers from the selection of voting peers in a Standing Committee—far from it. I suspect most of your Lordships share my own view that Cross-Benchers add their experience and special objectivity to our debates and considerations. My suggestion would not detract in any way from the proposal that I am making—partly for the reasons I have just given and partly because, in any event, if one looks at the voting of Cross-Benchers, one sees that the tendency is for them to divide half and half, more or less, for the Government and against the Government.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me, may I ask him how many votes were cast in the last general election for the Cross-Benchers?
Lord Diamond: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, for asking that question, for obviously he would not have done so if he were not in something of a quandry and in doubt. Clearly, I have not explained fully the arrangement to which I have just referred; namely, that it would be right and proper in this Chamber to have full regard to the Cross-Benchers, notwithstanding that they do not come within the formula I have described, because it would be your Lordships' wish, I am sure, to have the benefit of their objectivity, knowledge and experience. I do not believe—and I repeat this to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, who has just questioned me—that this detracts to any extent from the validity of the argument I am putting to your Lordships; particularly because, in the event, the Cross-Benchers' vote tends to divide fairly equally and would not upset the proportions. The answer to the noble Lord's question is, of course, none.
That is what I am suggesting and those are the benefits which I claim. I recognise immediately, arising out of the Cross-Benchers, that such a commit
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tee would not be manned in exactly the same proportions as a committee in another place would be. I say that not as a criticism against my proposal, but as an advantage. I do not think it is your Lordships' desire that this House should pretend to be a pale image of the other place. Nor is it your Lordships' desire that it should be a rubber stamp, which would be the situation if the representations in the other House were exactly repeated here and the Government of the day would know therefore that they would have no more difficulty getting legislation through this House than through the other. So I think that is an advantage which the curious composition of your Lordships' House provides.
The disadvantages which have been put to me during the course of some two years of discussions and six years of thinking about this proposal—I thought about it long before I became a member of the party to which I am proud to belong, and it is no party matter that we are discussing—I do not know why the noble Lord on the Front Bench thought that a matter for laughter. This is a conclusion I reached when I was sitting in the same place as he is now sitting—a conclusion I reached as being in the best interests of the whole House, whether you happen to be sitting on the Front Bench of the Labour Party, on the Front Bench of the Social Democrats or in any other place in your Lordships' House. What we are all considering is what is in the best long-term interest of your Lordships' House, what would be the most likely to assure it of a long and useful life.
The criticism which could be levelled against it is that I say nothing about Report stage. I do not need to say anything about Second and Third Reading, because of course your Lordships already exercise self-restraint in not voting against the Second or Third Reading of Government Bills coming before your Lordships' House. That is a convention which is now well established. The only other part of our procedure that one need consider is Report stage.
I think it is wiser to go a step at a time, but more particularly I think it is wiser to have the Report stage as a longstop in case the decisions reached in Committee are not the decisions which would have been reached had a full Committee been present—and one does not want the kind of "whipping" which is anathema in this place to see that every single Member of a Committee is present the whole time. It should be regarded with the same relaxation by the Chief Whip and the other Whips, as by all the membership of your Lordships' House, that people get along when they can, and if they cannot then they cannot. If, as a result of some accident of that kind, the vote goes against the way the Government intended had all the Committee members been present, the Report stage can put it right. The Report stage can alter the decision of the Committee if, for example, the Committee has made a decision which the Government of the day do not think fits in with the overall important plans which the Government may have. My conception of democracy is that the Government of the day should have the final say. Therefore, one has to leave the Report stage as a longstop, as a safeguard.
With that, I think we have a suggestion here which could do much good. What I am asking is merely that the House should give it consideration now, and that

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the Government should consider whether it would not be in the best long-term interests of the House to set up a Select Committee—because there is no existing committee which is apt for the purpose—to consider these proposals in detail, for there is a great deal of detail I have not the time to go into. This is, of course, a Short Debate, and I see the clock is continuing to tick. That committee would report and come back to your Lordships' House, when we would have a full debate. Then, hopefully, if the committee so felt, we could adopt this variation in our procedure for a fair experimental period. I say an experimental period because if, after a year, say, it turned out that for some unforeseen reason it did not work there is nothing whatever to prevent your Lordships returning to the present method of a Committee of the Whole House considering the Committee stage. So that is the proposal I put before your Lordships. I hope the Leader of the House will give it a fair wind. I beg to move for Papers.
Lord Kinnaird: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down may I ask him, as he has two or three times referred to this, about the millions of members of the public who seem to be discontented with the present composition of the House? I know that perhaps we are all very old-fashioned over on this side of the House, but could he tell us who these masses of people are?
Lord Diamond: My Lords, I can only repeat exactly, word for word, what I said: that everyone who has given consideration to this matter in great depth has come out with the answer that the present composition of the House is "indefensible", or similar words. I am quoting the noble Lord, Lord Home; I am not quoting a single person other than respected Conservative Members or groups. If the noble Lord cares to talk to people he will find that there is no body at all which considers these matters which believes that there is a right in an individual by virtue of birth to legislate and affect the liberty of another individual by that reason alone.
Lord Kinnaird: My Lords, then I put it to the noble Lord that the hereditary principle is really what he is attacking.
Lord Diamond: My Lords, I am not attacking any principle. I am repeating—and your Lordships can make your own judgment; if noble Lords take a different view, they take a different view—that the only expressed view which your Lordships have given is the view which I have quoted. I hope that that will restore the confidence of the noble Lord.
Lord Morris: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he has considered the position of the Lords Spiritual?
Lord Diamond: My Lords, if the Select Committee which I am recommending be set up to consider the detail of this feel that the Bishops should be treated in the same way as the Cross-Benchers, there is no reason why there should be any difficulty whatever.
4.28 p.m.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, knows that I have been for a long time a great admirer of his and in particular of his work as Chief Secretary to the Treasury. It is difficult enough to be Chief Secretary to the Treasury in a Conservative Government, but in a Labour Government it must be sheer hell! I see the noble Lord assents to this proposition. He will allow me to say—I hope he will assent to this—that, given the difficulties of that position, any of us who know a certain amount about the subject greatly admired his handling of it.
The noble Lord said he had had experience as chairman of a Standing Committee in another place, a recollection which I share with him, and I recall an occasion when the noble Lord came out with a really superb display of endurance. In the late 1940s, on the Bill to nationalise the gas industry the noble Lord was chairman of the Standing Committee, and there was no provision then for any deputy. That Standing Committee sat continuously for two days and nights subject only to a short interval after luncheon. That the outcome of its deliberations was quite disastrous was not the responsibility of the chairman, without whose sheer physical stamina the Bill would never have been enacted at all.
However, I think the noble Lord, if he reflects, will feel, as many of us who have spent a good many years in another place and are very fond of another place do, that we are all rather subject when we come here to the danger of regarding what happened and what happens in another place as being so good and so efficient that we are tempted to see some part of its procedures reproduced here. I am conscious that I am subjected to that temptation and I suspect the noble Lord is too. Indeed, I suspect it has a little bit to do with these particular proposals that he has brought forward.
I should like to comment on the noble Lord's speech—admirable and moderate and lucid in tone as it was—in two divisions. First, there are the general political assertions which he put forward as a basis for the proposed specific procedural changes. As he pointed out in reply to one of my noble friends, the expression "democratizing" the House" meant that he was attacking, as he did specifically attack, the hereditary element in your Lordships' House. Indeed, he went so far as to say that it was wrong that what he called the accident of birth should give to some of your Lordships a certain position in our constitution.
The noble Lord is wrong in thinking that that particular state of affairs is obnoxious to any substantial body of opinion outside. We have—and are fortunate to have—an hereditary monarchy. We have many occupations which are hereditary in practical terms—as any young man who some years ago sought to work in the London docks, without having taken the precaution of having a London docker as his father, quickly discovered. We are not unsympathetic to the idea of hereditary rights; and not only rights but duties. I hope your Lordships will not think I am being frivolous by saying that when our fellow countrymen consider whether to entrust their money to a horse or a dog they are extremely interested in that quadruped's heredity. The noble Lord is barking up quite the wrong tree in suggesting there is a very serious feeling on the

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question of an hereditary element. As he knows full well, the appointed or Life Peer element in this House has steadily increased since the Life Peerages Act 1958.
Lord Wilson of Langside: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. If he is right that there is nothing open to criticism in the principle, can he comment on the circumstance that when the matter was considered in the late 1960s there was agreement between both Front Benches as to the need for the abolition of the hereditary principle? At that time this was a matter of discussion between both Front Benches in the other place.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, I well recall the episode of the 1968 Bill which, as the noble Lord said, was approved by the Labour Front Bench and by some elements in the then Conservative Party leadership. I can however claim very clean hands on this matter because in company with the late leader of the Labour Party and Mr. Enoch Powell I was involved in the fairly firm opposition to that Bill which finally caused the then Government to abandon it in another place. If the noble Lord is quoting that measure as an indication of the appropriateness of this sort of proposal I can only remind him that the measure, although a Queen's Speech measure and supported by some elements in the Opposition, failed to pass the House of Commons and, if I may say so, deservedly so failed.
Finally, I come back to the noble Lord, Lord Diamond. As a general proposition he referred to the inbuilt Tory majority in this House. There is no such thing. If one takes the various elements—the very substantial and immensely influential Cross-Bench element, the official Opposition and the ingredients of the Alliance—there is no overall Conservative majority. If there was, the life of my noble friend the Chief Whip might be a great deal easier than it is. In so far as the Conservative element is still the largest separate one, that lead is steadily diminishing as the years pass. Therefore, the general philosophy behind the specific proposition put forward by the noble Lord is based on a number of fallacies and misunderstandings.
I come now to the rather curious specific proposals related to the Committee stage of Bills. As I understand it, the Committee of Selection, aided in the normal way by the Whips, is to nominate a number of your Lordships to have a vote on the Committee stage of Bills in accordance with the outcome of the popular vote for another place at the preceding general election. The obvious beneficiary from that precept is so plainly the group with which the noble Lord now says he is himself that I was not wholly surprised when the noble Lord, the Opposition Chief Whip, was unable to restrain his hilarity at the suggestion that there was no party advantage involved. The Opposition Chief Whip has a very good sense of humour, and he needs it. These people to be selected would be the only people to have a vote. I still do not understand how the noble Lord deals with the Cross-Benchers who have no vote at the general election, the right reverend Prelates, or those Members of your Lordships' House who have no strict party alignment.
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The effect of his proposal must be to exclude them from a vote in the Committee stage of Bills.
Let us think this through a little. The Committee of Selection will be aided by the party Whips, and the party Whips— despite, sometimes, appearances to the contrary—being human will select as the Peers to have votes those Members of your Lordships' House who are the most loyal party members, unlikely to dissent or to vote the wrong way and likely to attend with considerable regularity. That is the kind of Peer they will select. That proposal would destroy a great deal of the value of discussion in Committee in this House. It is suspiciously reminiscent of one provision in the 1968 Bill of which the noble Lord opposite reminded us a few minutes ago. There was this same business of each side nominating their gladiators who could be relied upon to vote the party ticket for better or for worse.
This seems to be an extraordinary pity. It also seems very odd that the noble Lord should be advocating it. With such a system the Government of the day basically have a watertight majority in Committee. Yet the strength of this House is the ability of noble Lords to vote separately from their parties—if they have any—on the merits of the matter under debate. I believe that is very well understood outside.
I shall not weary your Lordships with examples, many of which, if the same principle applies, arise for the Report stage. But there was the famous occasion when the noble Duke the Duke of Norfolk and my late and very much lamented noble friend Lord Butler of Saffron Walden succeeded in carrying an amendment on school transport against the Conservative Government of the day. There was the occasion in which I was a little involved where the rights of the citizens of Gibraltar to United Kingdom citizenship were preserved. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House will recall this. I should like to say in his presence that his handling of that matter as Home Secretary seemed to me impeccable. He treated the House with great fairness and justice on that occasion. If we had this party orientated voting system of Peers selected by the parties to vote specifically for the parties we should lose this flexibility. We should lose the right of the House as a whole to decide an issue on what seem to be the merits of the matter.
I think that so far from strengthening the position of the House in the minds of our fellow countrymen—as the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, seems to think—it would greatly weaken it. If I may say so as still a relatively junior Member of your Lordships' House, a great deal of the ever-increasing public standing of this House in the eyes of our fellow countrymen derives from the very fact that we are thought of and known to be not 100 per cent. party loyalists but exercise a freedom and discretion of voting in the way that we think will serve the national interest best. There is sometimes thought to be a contrast between that freedom and flexibility in this House and the discipline which perhaps inevitably exists in another place. It seems to me therefore that the proposal of the noble Lord, so far from strengthening the popularity and standing of the House— as he said and as I am sure he intends—would have the exactly opposite effect.

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The noble Lord asked for a Select Committee on the details of his proposals. I hope that no such Select Committee will be appointed. It could be appointed only on the basis that the general principles behind his proposal were approved. The duty of the Select Committee would be, as I understand it, simply to make sure that the general principles were enacted in a form that made them workable. I am sure that we are indebted to the noble Lord for an interesting debate. It never does any harm to any organisation to have the chance to contemplate its own physiognomy and to hold up a mirror to itself to see whether improvements could be made.
I am the last man to say that improvements— quite substantial improvements—could not be made to the procedure of your Lordships' House. Indeed from time to time I have ventured with diffidence to suggest some. But I do suggest to your Lordships that this is not one. This is a retrograde step and one which would be harmful in its effect on your Lordships' House and harmful to its reputation. I hope that after we have discussed this today it will be the end of the matter.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I check back on a part of his earlier argument about which I was a little puzzled? Was the instance of hereditary dockers given as an example which the noble Lord thought should be followed in legislation or as a warning to us not to follow it?
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, if the noble Lord had been good enough to follow my observations with the courteous attention that I am sure he normally gives them, he would have seen that I was quoting hereditary dockers as an example of the fact that at all levels of our society, so far from there being antipathy to the hereditary idea, there is a great deal of practical sympathy with it.
4.44 p.m.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I follow the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, not only in addressing your Lordships but—I hope I may say without impertinence—in expressing admiration based on long experience of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond. Perhaps I ought to say that that admiration is widely shared. It is not limited to those who are former Treasury Ministers. I desire to say that right away because, like the noble Lord who has preceded me, I cannot follow the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, in his suggestions today.
It is with considerable diffidence that I address your Lordships on this subject. For many years a prior commitment to the judicial work in your Lordships' House has precluded me from playing a large part in the legislative work. Nevertheless last Session I was privileged to take part throughout the Committee stage of the National Heritage Bill. The lessons that I learned there, not only intrinsically but by comparing the work done there with that of a Standing Committee in another place, embolden me to address your Lordships today.
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I hope that it is not being unduly cynical if I say that the main thrust of this Motion lies in the little words:
"having regard to … the proportion of the votes cast … at the last General Election".
After all, this Motion follows the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Hams of Greenwich, proposing proportional representation in local government elections. I supported that Bill. Nevertheless this seems to me to be a far less suitable milieu than that Bill for inserting the thin edge of the wedge of proportional representation.
I have two main objections to the noble Lord's proposals. The first is that it seems to me that the procedure by way of Committee of the Whole House in your Lordships' House works extraordinarily well. It worked outstandingly well in the Bill that mentioned—the National Heritage Bill. The muster of expertise on that occasion was quite extraordinary. One noble Lord after another had special knowledge of the myriad aspects with which the Bill was concerned. It would be a great pity to limit in any way the number of noble Lords who could participate in such proceedings. I know that the noble Lord. Lord Diamond, proposes a dichotomy between speaking and voting, but surely it is not very sensible to say that those who know best may speak but may not participate in the decision on the matter on which they have spoken.
The second reason which precludes my following the noble Lord in his ideas is that it seems to me that an impossible burden would be placed on the proposed Committee of Selection. A number of aspects have already been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, and by way of intervention in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond. But let us take the National Heritage Bill again. How could any Committee of Selection possibly have known the range of expertise, experience and knowledge that your Lordships' House had at its command?
I think that by supporting the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, I demonstrated that I am no enemy of proportional representation. But I should have thought that this kind of niggling approach in procedure is not the right way to vindicate either that or the great principles of democracy for which the noble Lord declares himself so eloquently.
After all, we have been waiting since 1911 on the urgency of reform of your Lordships' House. We have been waiting under Conservative Governments, under Liberal Governments, under Labour Governments, and under coalition and national Governments; and of course all that time, too, proportional representation has been very much on the agenda: but nothing has been done.
It may well be—I think it should be—that, when the task of establishing an effective second Chamber is undertaken, regard is had in part to the votes cast at the previous election upon the principle of proportional representation. Whether it is by choice of Peer, by a popular vote, or by nomination by party leaders, is debatable, and this is not the occasion to debate it. But of this I venture to feel sure: that this present proposal is not the right way to attain it.
4.52 p.m.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: My Lords, this is a Short Debate, and under the rules governing such debates it should end at 6.35 and the noble Viscount, Lord Whitelaw, should rise not later than 6.15. So under those rules I have about an hour and 20 minutes to speak. But I can assure your Lordships that it is not my intention to take up my full quota of time.
The noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has spent considerable time and effort in developing the theme of the debate this afternoon. I noted that in the House Magazine of 22nd February last his article on the future of the House of Lords contained a leading paragraph which stated:
"For the first time since the Parliament Act 1911 the future of the House of Lords is going to be a major issue at the next general election".
I did not note that that was the case during the general election. We have also had the benefit of a paper prepared by the noble Lord in February 1982. Therefore I should like to thank him for giving us the opportunity this afternoon to discuss his proposals for there form of the procedure, though I am afraid that I must join with other noble Lords in not welcoming the proposals that he has made.
It seems to me that the noble Lord is trying to achieve a major reform of this House by the back door. The noble Lord proposes that the House should set up committees on Public Bills and that the Committee of Selection should appoint people to those committees in proportion to the votes cast for the main political parties at the last general election. In other words, a system of proportional representation would be introduced into this unelected House, and inevitably a committee so composed would be comprised of people who would necessarily have to put their party allegiance first. The noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, commented on this point in his speech. It would go without saying that that would be a qualification for serving on a committee.
While the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, was speaking I laughed at his remark that there were no party implications in his proposals. There are serious party implications, because he is proposing that the effective power of this House should be based on a system of proportional representation. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, said, this would be the thin end of the wedge. One can imagine a situation in which we would say that the Committee procedure is based on proportional representation, and then after a period of time we would move to the Report stage being based on proportional representation. So this particular cancer would spread throughout the whole House. To say that there are no political implications in the proposals is just not right.
One of the advantages of our present Committee procedure is that all Peers can take part and do not have to have the same strong party allegiance as specially chosen Peers inevitably would have on a Public Bill Committee. I should add that the whole body of the Peers includes over 200 Cross-Bench Peers who have no party allegiance at all; and some of the Members on the Benches opposite have not as strong a party allegiance as would be necessary for those who were asked to serve on a special Select Committee. This means to say that the House of Lords can be
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receptive to public opinion in a way that the House of Commons cannot be, and so on occasion can enable the other place to be asked to think again.
The noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has argued with some validity that it is only when the Conservatives are in power that there is a democratic impact at Committee stage, in that the Government of the day have the largest say, and that the problem is how to achieve this for every Government. This is a misleading argument in that the noble Lord is trying to achieve a situation where this House has an electoral mandate to challenge the will of the elected House. Those who are aware of the problems which arise where the two Houses of a Parliament have equal, or almost equal, authority and are elected on different electoral franchises—for example, such as in Australia —will certainly want to avoid a situation where an authority is given to this House on the basis of a different but valid electoral authority.
As other noble Lords have mentioned, the question of House of Lords reform is a matter which has been discussed for almost all of this century. Indeed, it has been discussed since the 1906 Liberal Government were elected and immediately found that their radical measures were being opposed by the then vast Tory ranks in this Chamber. It is a matter to which no ready solution has been found. Some of my friends have become so frustrated in this situation that they have felt that the only answer to the problem of an unelected and unrepresentative second House is to opt for single Chamber Government. I do not myself believe that that would be satisfactory unless there were further radical changes in the way in which the other place operates.
The noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has sought to show how the procedures which he is suggesting would work. I am sure that if there were a will, there would be a way in which the procedures could work. But from the short debate that we have had this afternoon it is clear that there is not in the House a will to want to see such procedures work. I do not therefore feel it incumbent on me to discuss the detailed procedural arrangements that would be necessary. Suffice it to say that the noble Lord's idea that the end of Session pressure could be relieved by increasing the number of Standing Committees considering Bills would not be a feasible arrangement because of the staffing implications that would arise for this short period of time during the year and also because it would be necessary for each one of those Committee procedures to be repeated at Report and Third Reading stage on the Floor of this House. Therefore, it would not even solve that particular problem.
As the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has stated, the most useful work of this House—and, indeed, the work that justifies the existence of the House—is our detailed work on the examination and amendment of Public Bills at Committee stage. Behind this work lies the ability of this House to ask the other place to think again about certain aspects of its legislation without challenging the principle of that legislation on which the Government have been elected. We are the Chamber that enables the other Chamber to have a second thought; and, so far as we are concerned on this side of the House, since we have been the official Opposition in this House we have never sought to

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challenge the principle of the will of the elected Chamber, although I am bound to say that the present Government party only accepted this view after the 1945 General Election.
I should add of course that we have constantly and with great success during the last Parliament sought to amend the details of that legislation. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, has pointed out, there was the conspicuous occasion when the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk, led people from all parts of the House into the Lobby to defeat a particularly pernicious proposal of the Government. That was only one of 48 occasions during the last Parliament when the Government did not have their way. I am sure, as we enter into a new Parliament, there will be many more such occasions to come.
So far as this Motion is concerned, I hope that we have had a useful discussion about it today. But, like other noble Lords who have spoken, I hope that it goes no further.
5.3 p.m.
Viscount Whitelaw: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, for what he said about my participation in the debate. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, as to so many noble Lords, for their kind help in what has been the extremely difficult task of arriving for the first time in your Lordships' House and finding oneself seeking, to the best of one's ability, to lead it. To the extent that the noble Lord (or, rather, the debate) has given me some further instruction and food for thought, I am for that reason extremely grateful to him.
I should perhaps start by recalling a comment that I heard during a conversation between two noble Lords not long after I arrived in your Lordships' House. One turned to the other, not apparently seeing me—that is in itself a difficult thing to do—and said, "I hope he does not think that he knows everything". I said to myself, "Lord—I certainly do not do that". Then the noble Lord said, "I hope to goodness he will not come here and say that as he has been in another place for 28 years he now intends to tell us how to manage our affairs". I thought to myself that I could survive both those remarks, because they are the last things I have in mind. I have no intention of acting in that manner. Indeed, it has almost been borne in upon me that my own prejudices are becoming such that I am most anxious not to do something that has happened in another place if I can possibly avoid it. I have become a quick convert to the view that your Lordships' House does things in its own way quite differently and, I believe, in many instances, exactly as it should.
For the House to be a mirror of another place would not be a good idea. There would be the danger of it becoming a pale image, and that would be even worse. While, as Leader of your Lordships' House, I am only too ready and, I believe, must be ready to listen to all proposals, I do not necessarily start with prejudices in favour of bringing any thoughts of mine here from another place.
I should like now to turn to a few reflections on the debate: first, about thorough-going reforms. I think
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that your Lordships would consider it reasonable for me to say that, in present circumstances, I am not perhaps the best person to comment on the wisdom or otherwise of hereditary peerages. I shall therefore not go further down that road. To follow my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter in his reflections on the 1968 Bill, I can only say that I was at that time Opposition Chief Whip in another place. My noble friend Lord Carrington and I, who have agreed on practically everything in our political lives, did not, however, agree on that occasion. I am not saying that we did not agree on the merits necessarily, because, as Opposition Chief Whip, I was not really entitled to a view on the merits. I was there presumably to do what Lord Carrington and others among my leaders felt should be done.
One night long before the phrase was coined in the manner that has become familiar in recent times, my noble friend Lord Carrington turned to me and said, "You are very wet indeed". I asked, "Why is that?", to which my noble friend replied, "Because you haven't the courage to Whip our party properly and to make sure that the proposals that I believe to be right for the House of Lords will get through". I reflect now that when I was said to be "very wet", it was because I was failing to Whip successfully my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, Mr. Enoch Powell and one or two other people of such eminence. I think it will be seen that, whatever my attributes, it was not altogether wetness that made me fail on that occasion. I have one thought for your Lordships as I look back on that effort—that on thorough-going reforms it will be very difficult indeed for the other place ever to bring forward worthwhile reform. There is a very simple reason. Too much reform would make the other place feel that this House has to have more powers than it has now. That is the last thing in the world that the other place actually wants to give this House. Whether the other place should feel like that, I am not sure; but I know that that is its view.
I must refer to the ideas of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, about an inbuilt Tory majority. I shall not trespass upon the territory of my noble friend the Chief Whip in this matter. My noble friend constantly tells me quite a different story. I have become so conditioned to it that I now fully believe—if I did not do so before—what he tells me. My noble friend has told me that if I do not believe it now I very soon will, to which I have replied that I do not expect to be shown and do not desire to be shown, but that I will accept his view.
I can, however, tell your Lordships what happened to me as a Minister in another place when seeking to take Bills through Parliament. It was a most instructive experience which taught me lessons I have learnt and which I shall pass on to my colleagues who are Ministers now. I do so from the position that I now hold. It is this. It is very dangerous in legislation to take your Lordships for granted. It is worth reflecting, if you are not going to succeed, that, just possibly, your Lordships are right and that it is you, the Minister, who is wrong. I do not say that this is always the case. I have to admit that there were moments at the Home Office when I would not have wished right reverend Prelates collectively to hear what I was saying about them. I am not of course referring to them individu

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ally. But, collectively, I was having to pay attention to their views which, while irritating at the time, I recognised as right and a wise course to follow. So, as when I lost one particular amendment on the Nationality Bill in your Lordships' House—and my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter was most generous to me in this matter—I fully realised that probably I was wrong and I went to my colleagues in the Cabinet and said that I thought I was wrong and that it would be sensible to allow what your Lordships had done to go through. I believe that that is the right way to look at legislation.
Therefore, I hope that no one will imagine that any Ministers—certainly in the last Parliament and, indeed, I hope in this one—will ever be under any illusion that they have a built-in Tory majority in this House. On many occasions I have had to tell them why I know that they have not, and I am very ready to do so, and, on behalf of your Lordships, will certainly do so. There is no such thing now as the built-in Tory majority. I think that it is to the good of this House, although it will not be to the good of me always when I have to account to my colleagues as to why I have failed. So I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, will not think that we should proceed to reforms on the basis of something which does not exist in the working of this House at the present time.
Many of the points that I was about to make have already been made. They have been made by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, who, when I first joined another place was someone I looked up to very considerably, and by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, with his considerable knowledge, and I shall not repeat too many of them. But on a very short experience I am bound to reflect that the procedure in Committee on Public Bills in this House seems to have very great merits. I personally would suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, that the fact that Public Bills are considered in a Committee of the Whole House may be one of the great strengths of this House. In a House which is composed predominantly of part-time Members it provides the opportunity for noble Lords to take part on those occasions when they are able to and when the Bill under consideration deals with a subject in which they are specially interested or expert.
Surely it is one of the great strengths of this House that it has Members who are expert in so many different fields that their wisdom on a particular aspect of a Bill should not be lost to the discussions in this House. It would be a great pity if that were so. Indeed, if we moved in the direction which the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has suggested I think there is a danger that that is exactly what would happen. If it did not happen that way, there is a risk (and I have been told that this has happened sometimes in the past) of Report stages becoming more protracted, because many Members might hold back or, if they had been denied a position in the Committee, they might seek to make their particular points on Report.
It is for that reason I join with the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, in believing that the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, would not help the appalling problem—which I fully appreciate I face—of congestion in the summer months at the end of the
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Session. It is a problem that greatly worries me, about which I consistently speak to my colleagues. But from the evidence that has been given to me of the past, I do not believe that these particular proposals would help. So I do not think that I can support them on those grounds.
Therefore, I do not believe that the case has been made out. Indeed, since, on a very short experience in this House, I also profoundly believe that this House must work by consent, as the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby said, there is no sign of consent for a change of this sort and therefore I believe that my duty as Leader of the House is to point to that and say that if we were to succeed we would have to move by general consent. Equally, when the experiment was tried before I do not believe that it was all that successful.
Quite possibly the best way forward is through the Select Committee procedure, using committees like the Select Committee on Science and Technology and the European Communities Committee with its very eminent membership. They have, indeed, been a considerable advance in this House. I believe that that is the right way in which we should seek to go forward.
Of course, I would be very ready to consider any proposals if there was a general feeling of consent for them in this House. To everyone who asks me how I enjoy this House or how I find my job in this House I consistently say that it is extremely interesting to have to win consent for what you want to do. A House which works by consent needs a great deal of understanding and a great deal of work to obtain that consent. I shall seek to proceed on that basis and I shall certainly consider any proposals that come to me on that basis.
Therefore, as the evidence given to me leads me to believe at this time and from what has been said in this debate, I do not believe that the proposals of the noble Lord. Lord Diamond, as such would improve the procedures. So I could not agree to the procedure that the noble Lord proposes on behalf of the House because, as the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said, as my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter and as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, said, I do not think that that consent exists at the present time.
I do not believe that we could make major reforms by a side wind and, with the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, I rather suspect that perhaps it has something to do with the position of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, although I appreciate that he also believes that the Standing Committee procedure might be best. On the experience of another place, it is perhaps fair to say that not everybody in another place believes that the Standing Committee procedure, as they practise it, is to the best advantage of the House. I personally have considerable doubts about it. Of course, another place also sometimes has doubts about it, for whenever they deal with a Bill on which a great many Members of another place wish to speak the Government of the day are flooded with the most clamant demands for the legislation to be taken in a Committee of the Whole House, and they allow it because the Bill in question is a constitutional Bill or because it is a Bill of such importance that many Members will wish to take part in it. I hope that your Lordships will ponder on that, because I believe that

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the procedure in this House is a particular advantage. If another place believe that it is sometimes an advantage to them, all the more is it an advantage to this House.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, will not proceed with his proposals, but I thank him very much for having raised them. If some of my remarks seem to many noble Lords to be rather lacking in experience or understanding, perhaps this afternoon has given me an opportunity to gain both in experience and understanding.
5.18 p.m.
Lord Diamond: My Lords, I should like to express my gratitude not only to those noble Lords who have taken part in this debate—particularly to the noble Viscount, who has been good enough to spare his time to do so, but also to many of your Lordships who have been good enough to stay and listen to the debate. I am sure that that will be a great encouragement to those who believe that the House of Lords takes great care to ensure that it is managed in the best possible way. That is what this debate is about.
I am most grateful to noble Lords who, notwithstanding that they are not of my party, have been good enough to make such kind references to me. It is very moving and I am most grateful indeed. Therefore, there is no need for me to repeat that the proposals which I have in mind are directed purely not only to improving the practice of this House but more particularly to ensuring its permanence. That is what I am after. I am bound to say that I do not entirely accept the views which have been expressed on the two major criticisms—proportional representation and the hereditary principle. Perhaps I may say why. I shall read to your Lordships again the views of the Bow Committee, as expressed in their report. The first recommendation is:
"75 per cent. of the Upper House should be elected by the regional list system of proportional representation at the same time as a General Election",
et cetera. That is 75 per cent. They propose proportional representation, and some weight must be given to the fact that here a number of intelligent people spent a great deal of time thinking about it. What element do they propose of hereditary representation? Nil. Then I return to the Conservative Party's committee on the reform of the House of Lords, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel. What proportion of the House did they recommend for the hereditary principle? None. None in each case. Therefore, it is not surprising that I should take it that there is a body of informed opinion which takes the view that the hereditary principle is not here for all time. I was making an attempt to move a step forward in the only way in which we could move forward, and which is wholly in line with these two committees to which I have referred.
I have already quoted one reference to proportional representation. If one is to get a direct democratic impact of a kind that would be seen by the outside world for what it is—an attempt to introduce more democratic understanding of some of our procedures—I do not see what formula is better than the formula of votes cast at the last General Election.
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I do not know of any other way of demonstrating that principle. If anybody can think of a better answer, then by all means let us have it.
If one considers this Mother of Parliaments, as we so happily call it—this fertile Mother of Parliaments—I am bound to say that it is the case that of all the offspring she has produced there is no single offspring in her own likeness. There is no single offspring which has a hereditary element in it, and one can see Parliaments all over the world which take our basic approach as their principle for creating their own Houses. Therefore, I do not think that I need to go further in demonstrating the view of solid, hardworking committees of the Conservative Party, views held by other parties, views held by the population at large here, and views held by other countries as shown by the Parliaments which they have established.
The only other thing I would say is that I know that it does not necessarily form part of this debate, but nobody has come forward with a better idea. I wish they had. It is not making much progress towards something which I think we need to progress towards, although I am much assuaged by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who makes it clear that at all events this part of the Labour Party is not in favour of the destruction of the House of Lords, though other parts of the Labour Party may have it as their official policy. That is good news, which I welcome, but I wish that somebody had come forward with some other constructive idea.
Nobody has said that this is the only idea. It is an idea which of course is similar to the idea adopted by the Labour Committee which looked at this in 1977 under the chairmanship of Lord Champion, with which I was closely associated. If there had been another idea we could have looked at that as well. I hope that that will be so. I hope that Members will turn over what has been suggested in their minds. One does not expect victory at first go. If the noble Viscount will recollect, there was a time in the other place when we sat opposite one another, and I used every opportunity I could of bringing in a Private Member's Bill to provide for compensation for loss of jobs. He did everything he could, and he was completely successful at the time, to prevent that Bill having any chance of seeing the light of day, and he talked it out very successfully on every occasion. But, my Lords, this has been the law of the land for a considerable time now, and I am somewhat encouraged by that recollection of the past. I am grateful to everybody who has participated. I am most grateful to everybody who has listened. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

Easing of Frontier Formalities: ECC Report
5.26 p.m.
Lord Scarman Lord Scarman rose to move, That this House takes note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on the Easing of Frontier Formalities.
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I rise to invite your Lordships' House to take note of the fourth

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report this Session of the Select Committee upon the European Communities, and to consider the report which goes under that reference. The duty falls to me to invite the House to take notice of this report, because at the time that the report was under preparationI was chairman of Sub-Committee E—that is, the legal sub-committee—of the Select Committee. I should like in my capacity as chairman of that subcommittee to express the gratitude of all who were concerned with the preparation of this report towards those who provided the committee with evidence, both written and at oral sessions of the sub-committee.
In particular, I would draw attention to one feature of the evidence, which I am glad to say is becoming more and more common in the deliberations of the Select Committee. The European Commission agreed that a senior official of the Commission could come to London to assist the sub-committee in its deliberations. Dr. Taschner, of Directorate General III of the European Commission, came to London. Not only was he of great assistance on the substance of the matter, as I think the report abundantly reveals, but he also managed to clarify certain obscurities, perhaps even confusions, with which it would have been easy to have been bedevilled by the terms of the matter under consideration.
The matter under consideration was a proposal made in 1982 by the European Commission with the object of reducing formalities at the internal frontiers of the Community in respect of citizens of member states passing from one member state to another. A modest objective, you may think; but also, you may think, valuable if something can be done to ease for travellers within the Community the delays which can build up to a frustrating degree at airports and seaports. However, although mode it, it soon became clear that the proposal raised difficult questions of policy and principle for the United Kingdom. It is to those questions that I shall direct the few words I shall address to the House tonight.
The proposals for easing these frontier formalities were these; I quote from paragraph of the report that,
"the Council should pass a resolution that member States will undertake by 31 December 1984 at the latest… to reduce formalities at the internal frontiers of the Community by discontinuing systematic checks as soon as citizenship of a Member State has been established, retaining only the right to make occasional spot checks"
and, secondly,
"to introduce special channels for EEC nationals at EEC airports and ports."
Your Lordships will notice, first, that what has been proposed was a Council resolution. A Council resolution has no binding legal effect in Community law, but it would be very influential if passed by the Council. It would be extremely difficult—and probably undesirable—if we could allow a resolution to be passed by the Council and to say thereafter that it presents difficulties of principle and policy and that we shall exercise our undoubted right to disregard it. It is therefore on the basis that, if such a resolution were passed this country would have to pay very careful attention to it, that the Committee investigated the implications of this seemingly modest proposal to reduce the formalities facing Common Market travellers at frontiers.
The second preliminary point is the strange reference in the proposal to the internal frontiers of the Community. That conjures up—at least to me—land frontiers between member states, such as one would find between France, Germany and the Low Countries. It does not seem an apt description for the points of entry in the United Kingdom, most of which are either sea ports or airports used by the international community—indeed by all persons from wherever they are coming who wish to enter or leave the United Kingdom. If "internal frontier" means what in plain English it would indicate, there is only one internal land frontier for the United Kingdom and that is the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. But, in the context of frontier formalities, that border presents no problem of any sort. It is within the common travel area constituted by the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, and there are no passport checks or other frontier formalities there at all. Security problems associated with Northern Ireland are not dealt with by any system of frontier checks at the land frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
Dr. Taschner, in giving evidence to the subcommittee, explained that internal frontiers included sea ports and airports; that is to say they include points of entry used by the travelling public irrespective of where they were coming from and would be used by many travellers who were not coming from one member state into another.
As soon as it was appreciated that these proposals related to airports and sea ports used by the general travelling public and not limited to travellers from or within the Common Market, one saw at once very serious problems. If we were to dismantle systematic checks for European Community nationals at our ports how would we distinguish between those who were coming from member states and those who were coming from other places? How would we handle the possibility of deception; the use being made of the facilities available to Common Market travellers by others who were not entitled to have them? One realised that we would be faced, if this proposal were to go through, with either having to dismantle our system of checks and to try to deal with our security problems in some other way or retaining the checks, despite the proposals being made by the Commission. Our difficulty is that we are an island.
We rely on systematic checks at our airports and sea ports to control illegal immigration. Other member states with long land frontiers cannot exercise as efficiently as we can a frontier control system, for they have long land frontiers and persons can get across in other places than at sea ports and airports. Therefore other member states have to rely on a system of internal controls, registration, identity cards and the right of the police to demand proof of identity, even where there is no suspicion of any criminal activity. If we are to implement this resolution it means that we shall have to find internal methods for doing that which we now do at our frontiers by means of immigration control. Those internal measures, it seemed to the committee and I would suggest to the House, would run counter to many of our cherished liberties in this country. That was the evidence that was given to us and we were faced with the Home

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Office view which the Committee accepted after investigation that these internal checks would be necessary if we were to dismantle our systematic checks at frontiers.
That being so it will not surprise your Lordships to hear—I take the matter very shortly—that the Committee came to this conclusion in respect of the proposals. It is to be found in paragraph 34 of the report where the committee say that they are unable to agree with the proposed abolition of systematic checks upon the identity of visitors coming through our airports. the other part of the proposal was that there should be special channels for nationals of member states at our airports and our seaports. That is already done.
The objections which I have outlined and which are to be found in the report concerning the systematic checks of identity at our airports do not apply to the second part of the proposal, that part which relates to the special channels for EEC nationals. In fact, as many noble Lords will know, at Heathrow and at other airports there are three channels: EEC nationals, United Kingdom passport holders, and others. Indeed, that system has been observed by the European Commission and their proposal is largely modelled upon what they have observed to be the practice at Heathrow and at other airports in the United Kingdom. So, for the reasons given in the report, the conclusion was that we could go along with special channels for letting people through airports, through immigration control, but that we must remain firm that we could not dismantle our systematic checks of identity.
Just for the moment, envisage how we do control illegal entry into this country. We do it at points of entry. A visitor has to satisfy the immigration officer, first of all, as to his identity, that he is the person referred to in his passport and in his identity card; and then the immigration officer has to satisfy himself that he is a person who can be allowed to enter. I need not go through the various grounds on which an immigration officer can refuse leave to enter. A visitor from a member state of the Community is in a better position. He has a right to enter this country, to take up employment, to seek opportunities for self-employment and so forth, That right is strictly, I think, in law, not a right because it is subject to a right on the part of the member state to refuse entry on grounds of security, public policy and so forth. So there has to be some sort of examination even in regard to Community visitors. When one comes to United Kingdom passport holders, some of them, so-called patrials, have the right of abode. They can come in as soon as their identity has been established. But there are other United Kingdom passport holders who do not have the right of abode and who must be subject to further inquiries before they can be allowed to enter.
This system, for that is what it is, would have to go if this proposal for the abandoning of systematic checks at our airports were adopted; and this system works pretty well. The report quotes some figures which will give your Lordships an indication as to how it does work. For the year 1981, which was the last year for which figures were available when this report was under consideration, we have: EEC nationals,
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other than United Kingdom passport holders, refused entry, 975; removals after entry for some reason or another—that is those who fell foul of such internal checks as we have in this country, only 125; foreign visitors refused at point of entry, 7,421; removals after entry as illegal immigrants, 695; Commonwealth travellers, refusals at point of entry, 5,788; removals after entry, 763. One cannot draw anything but broad conclusions from these figures but they indicate what our system is. We rely at the frontiers on our checks and by so relying we avoid, to a large extent, the difficulties and problems in terms of civil liberties of finding out who within the Kingdom should not be there and should be removed.
There is one last point which is made in the report to which I would wish to draw your Lordships' attention. The price of abandoning our systematic checks at the frontiers has been shown by the report, I hope, and by what I have said, to be high. What advantages, however, would be obtained by discontinuing identity checks at our frontiers in respect of European nationals? The advantages are so slim as to be almost imperceptible. Again I would quote from the report some fascinating figures. It takes immigration control six seconds to pass through a United Kingdom passport holder; it takes the officer 12 to 15 seconds to pass through a European member state national other than a United Kingdom passport holder. For all others, it takes between 45 and 85 seconds. Reducing formalities at the frontier, so far as concerns member state nationals, could only diminish by a second or two the time taken; and would not tackle the real causes of delay at our airports; namely, the time taken to recover one's baggage and, at certain hours of the day, as we all know at Heathrow, the accumulation of traffic with the build-up of people pressing to get through Immigration, Customs and so forth. We are really talking about a very slim advantage to be achieved with, in United Kingdom terms, a very high price to pay.
Those, in summary, are the conclusions and the reasoning of this report. I think that we should agree with the European Commission that it is highly desirable to reduce formalities where one can. Since 1974 steps have been taken to move towards a passport union. This Select Committee reported on that problem some years ago and came out clearly that we could not abolish passport checks; and we know that very soon—in January 1985—a European common format passport will be introduced.
I think that the Select Committee some years ago and the Select Committee today got it right when they said: "We cannot reduce or diminish passport control". I think there is nothing in the attitude which this report adopts towards these proposals that in any way endangers the increase in the use of European passports, and there is nothing that endangers the swift passage of nationals of the Community states through our seaports and airports. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on the Easing of Frontier Formalities.—(Lord Scarman.)
5.51 p.m.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, among the many gifts that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, has

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brought to this House and to the country are so lucid a mind and such an ability, in a speech of some 25 minutes, to take from a fairly long report and much evidence all the salient points that were raised by the sub-committee on which I have the privilege to serve, that anybody who takes 10 minutes after him in order to try to refer to the report and the recommendations is, I believe, being over-generous to himself in regard to the apportionment of time.
I therefore intend to abide by that generalisation and to say only this: for the reasons that the noble and learned Lord has given, not the least of them being the desire in this country to keep our constitutional principles of the freedom of the subject from unnecessary interference in the form of identity checks in the streets, the possession of identity cards, and so on, it is quite obvious that it would be quite wrong for us in our peculiar island position in the family of the EEC to do away with, or indeed to reduce at all, the passport controls and the limitations that we put upon people who pass through our frontier by way of a very short check—a check that takes a matter of seconds, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out.
I think we would all agree that the general principle that has been adumbrated in the EEC is a good one. There is the very first sentence that forms part of this report and gives the history of the thought within the EEC:
"At the European Summit meeting held in Paris on 9 and 10 December 1974, the Heads of Government called for an examination of the possibility of establishing a passport union, which was to include the introduction of a uniform passport, a progressive harmonisation of legislation affecting aliens and the abolition of passport control within the Community."
Some of us when hearing those words will remember a great Foreign Secretary of this country, Ernest Bevin, who regarded it as the aim of the foreign policy of this country, although he realised it would take many years to achieve it, that one would be able to walk anywhere across frontiers without indeed having to have a passport at all. That dream has not yet been achieved and, for the reasons given in this report to which the noble and learned Lord has drawn attention, there is no suggestion at this stage, from the point of view of security, for the release of the controls that we have.
The noble and learned Lord referred quite properly to the fact that in the course of our endeavours to meet these ideals and to achieve some feeling of real "family" within the European Community, there is to be a common form for a European passport in January 1985. This has caused some concern among people who have heard of this and who feel that they are to give up the very precious national format of their passport. They should be assure that the national particulars and description will certainly be prominently displayed on that common format. I wonder whether I may ask the noble Baroness who is to reply to this debate at least to give a little more information, since the date is not far off, as to what is to happen in January 1985 with this common format.
Are all of us to give up our passports and thereby, one would have thought overburden the poor Passport Office with having to issue new passports in January 1985? Or are we to be allowed to go to the normal permitted extent of the passport period and wait until shortly before the end of that time before asking for the common format? If that is so, many of us will have
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passports with perhaps nine years still to run, and it may be somewhat peculiar that many of us will be retaining for a number of years the old passports of which we are fond before being issued with the common format.
Before I sit down, there is one matter to which the noble and learned Lord called attention and about which there is very little knowledge indeed. He dealt with it briefly but concisely, as always. I refer to the right of the members of the European Community to reside in various countries within the European Community. I think it is understandable that people do not know about the right of residence. The right to work they know of, and also of the right to open up a business; but the right of residence—is it automatic or is it not? It is something which one finds few people really understand—and I say this with the greatest of respect to the witnesses who appeared before us and who were so helpful. But, as one reads the report, even one very able official of the Home Office expressed matters, not by way of mistake but in a way which he himself thought afterwards ought to be corrected.
I wonder whether, within the few minutes I have allowed myself only because I think it is of general importance, I may be allowed just to quote one or two questions and answers, and the clarification. I think it might be useful. Question No. 45 was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, and I quote:
"The requirement to register with the police has been withdrawn, as I understand it, as far as European Community nationals are concerned, but there is a requirement to obtain a Home Office residence permit".
The answer was:
"They do apply for a Home Office permit".
Question 46 was as follows:
"Are they told that as they go through immigration control? Are they told there is a requirement to register with the Home Office?"
The Home Office official replied as follows:
"They are told that they can apply. I do not think there is a requirement for them to apply, this is an aspect of EEC law. In fact the EEC national may apply for a residence permit but we cannot require it".
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, then said:
"That seems to be a very extraordinary situation".
That matter was clarified later at page 63 of the report. It contains some very interesting figures and in reading that paragraph I shall close my remarks, I promise your Lordships.
"The answer recorded at paragraph 46 needs some qualification. The position is that EC nationals must obtain a residence permit from the Home Office after they have been in this country for six months if they intend to remain. We suggest this is corrected by a footnote on the following lines, which also includes the further information requested by Lord Harris (paragraph 50)".
I quote:
"Under the Immigration Rules an EC national may remain in the United Kingdom for six months without a residence permit but then must obtain one from the Home Office. A residence permit will be issued if the EC national is in employment; has established himself in business, or in a self-employed capacity, or in accordance with rights relating to the provision and receipt of services; or is a member of the family of such a person. But a residence permit can be refused on grounds of public policy, public security or public health".
The interesting figures after that are that in 1981 a total of 48 residence permits were refused and in 1982 the total was 89. Those are rather interesting facts and figures. But, having said that, and the noble and

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learned Lord having said everything useful about this report, I hope that the House will endorse the recommendations that have been made.
6.1 p.m.
Baroness Elles: My Lords, I an extremely grateful to be able to have an opportunity to comment on this report and, as usual, to congratulate all those involved, not only the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, and his fellow-members on the sub-committee, but also those who wrote the report. It is the greatest joy for me to read a good report written in good English. It does not happen very often on the other side of the channel, so I particularly welcome it. I should also like to say as a preliminary remark that I have notified my noble friend Lady Trumpington of one or two questions that I may ask. I hope that if I exceed my quota of questions she will understand, and of course I shall expect a written reply at some later stage and on no account an immediate reply tonight. Clearly, questions of nationality are very confusing and, as the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, has pointed out, even the learned officials at the Home Office do not always get it 100 per cent. right and have to send an amendment to their statement.
To begin with, all of us who travel frequently within the Community welcome the idea of easing frontier formalities—this is clear—and as members of the Community we have already benefited. First, we no longer, as we did in 1973, have landing cards to fill in at whichever airport we are going to. I think that the only country in the Community which now has landing cards is Greece, and in a recent reply in the European Parliament the Foreign Minister said that they were now trying to make arrangements so that a landing card would not be required in Greece for EEC nationals. That is a great improvement and we welcome it.
I also welcome very much the measures that have been taken at Heathrow, to which the noble and learned Lord referred, so that we now have a channel for EEC nationals and then a channel for what may be described as "others". We have a channel also for United Kingdom nationals, but, when that column is rather long, those of us who recognise that we are members of the EEC sometimes go through the EEC channel and are treated with the usual courtesy, politeness and efficiency of the passport control officers—something to which we have now become accustomed. I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating them and thanking them for the way in which they conduct their business, and for the way in which they check people going through the passport control with such efficiency and courtesy.
The third benefit that we have had, which those who do not travel by car so much may not recognise—and I travel a great deal by car across the internal frontiers to which the noble and learned Lord referred—is the fact that practically never are you asked to produce your passport if you go through in a car with a Community number plate. It is very rare indeed. Of course, there are one or two black spots which are well-known to travellers and I shall not embarrass member states by mentioning them here now. But, certainly, pressure on one or two frontiers would ease
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traffic congestion and columns waiting for an hour or an hour and a half to go through. It is probably due to a lack of sufficient passport control officers at those frontiers. But, by and large, those who travel by car throughout the Community, crossing internal frontiers from one country to another, are very seldom indeed asked to produce a passport if they are in a Community car, by which I do not mean an official car but an ordinary private car.
Here I should like to take the opportunity to thank my colleagues in the European Parliament, particularly Mr. Basil de Ferranti and my noble friend Lord Bethell, who have done so much to try to ease the passage of individuals travelling throughout the Community; because it is only by pressure on Governments that you achieve even these limited objectives.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, has referred to the complex problem of defining an external frontier and an internal frontier. But it is fair to note that in the Council's draft resolution it is stated that the specific measures which are used at external frontiers are to remain, so that, in so far as we have external frontiers—and this is a matter for discussion—the measures that are employed at them are to remain and there is no question of removing them.
But the noble and learned Lord, quite understandably, raised what I think is the crucial element in all this. If this proposal were to go through blank with no amendment, and with no further consideration, the proposal itself would be leapfrogging over Community law. As the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, pointed out, there is no right of residence for an EEC national in any other member state—and, of course, in the United Kingdom as well. Then there are the three grounds on which an EEC national can be debarred—grounds of public policy, public health or public security. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will recall only too well the famous Van Duyn case, where an EEC national was stopped from entering the United Kingdom.
But let us be clear. It is very much easier to stop somebody from entering the United Kingdom by way of immigration control, than to try under the very complex rules that we have in this country to deport somebody who has once acquired, rightly or wrongly, entry to this country. At the moment, I cannot conceive, as Community law stands, that the proposal of the Council holds water, because it simply denies the fact that this Community legislation is not prepared to meet the problems which would arise if checking were stopped. So that this would be the practical effect if checking were stopped at points of entry.
Let us also recognise that all member states in the Community—and I am sure that this will come out in discussions between Foreign Ministers—have problems of illegal immigrants and no member state is going to allow complete freedom of entry for every EEC national throughout the Community, without any kind of checking. Let us also be clear that, even if nationals of EEC states are allowed through, there are two countries, at least, which have other forms of checking which are currency control checks. So that even where they let you through without seeing your passport, you may well be checked on grounds of

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currency control, and there is what might be called a "back-stop" to anybody going through a point of entry. Thanks to the removal of restrictions on exchange control we no longer have that check in this country, but it certainly exists in at least two of the Community countries. Certainly, I would not welcome any relaxation of the checking as it now exists at points of entry in the United Kingdom, and, once again, I congratulate those who have to operate the rules and strongly endorse the way in which they do that.
With regard to the Community passport, that is welcomed by many, partly as a symbol of identity of membership of a community, and partly because it will bring recognition as a member of the European Community not only within the member states but also outside the Community. I should like to raise five points, some of which I have already mentioned to my noble friend. The first is that we want an assurance—this would allay some of the fears of those who dislike the idea of having a Community passport—that the nationality will be on the outside cover of the passport. There is, after all, a principle of international law that a national can turn to his or her state of nationality for protection when abroad, and the passport is nearly always the only evidence of nationality. This would still be necessary, even if travelling in other member states.
We have only to think of those who today may be lingering in gaol in Holland for various activities last night at a football match, to know that they may need aid from their consul or legal representation in a Dutch court. This is a typical example of where you would be able to show your passport, or some document, to prove that you had British nationality and wanted to see the British consul. This is an essential element if there is to be a Community passport. I know that it has been said that this is to be on it, but I should like an assurance from my noble friend that indeed this will be so.
My second point relates to the United Kingdom passport holder. This is only going to be a problem for a limited period of time until the Community passport, if it is introduced, fully replaces the other. As I understand it, under the declaration of December 1982, giving the new definition of "national" (in accordance with the British Nationality Act 1981) as regards the European Community, United Kingdom passport holders who do not have the right of abode in this country would not be included. Perhaps my noble friend could either confirm or deny that particular point. It means that a United Kingdom passport holder who has no right of abode would not be entitled to a Community passport because, in accordance with the definition tabled by the United Kingdom in this recent declaration, he would not be a Community national.
My third point was touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. It relates to the issue of the Community passport in January 1985. As I read the report—which was rather late in the evening so perhaps I did not fully comprehend it—I understood that the Government intend to link the issue of this Community passport with a machine readable passport. However, the report also said that it would be several years before the system could be introduced.
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Does that mean that the Government do not intend to introduce a Community passport in January 1985? Or do they accept that they will not be able to link it, to begin with, to the machine readable passport and that therefore the bordeaux coloured passport will be issued in January 1985 to those who apply for it? With regard to the colour, perhaps I should say that if we had been fortunate enough when passports were first introduced in 1910 to have had them coloured dark red instead of blue, the emotions which the colour has aroused now would not perhaps be so deep as they appear to be in some minor sections of the population in Britain. I point to the colour of the Benches of your Lordships' House.
I should like to make a comment about one paragraph in the report. In paragraph 24 we read:
"There would be no effective obstacle to the presentation of forged, borrowed or stolen passports".
This I would cover by the euphemistic term "misplaced patriotism". If you look at the way that British visitors' passports are issued and at the way that they are acknowledged and allowed as documents of identity in other member states, the fact is that if Governments of other member states knew how these passports are issued I should be amazed if they ever allowed anybody in. Indeed, I sometimes wonder why people are allowed to re-enter the United Kingdom if that is all that can be given as evidence of having left the United Kingdom.
Today I obtained a form from the post office to find out exactly how easy it is to get one of these passports. The only form you have to produce, although there is a choice, is either a National Health Service medical card or a DHSS retirement pension book. These do not in any way show that you are a British subject. We know that there are many people in this country who are not British subjects but who naturally and quite fairly are entitled to those benefits in this country. Although the application form for a British visitors passport says on the face of it, "For British citizens" there is nothing on the document which asks you to sign that you are a British subject. Indeed, it does not require a signature. As about 1 million of these passports are issued every year I would suggest that the Home Office, which criticises other countries about forgeries, should look at the way these passports are issued and the dangers they may present in enabling illegal immigrants to enter this country without sufficient control.
Finally, may I say a word about non-passport excursions. Many of us have had problems with these recently. I know that it is said that this is no part of the Community passport problem, but in my view it is. These excursions are based on agreements which were bilaterally signed before we entered the Community. I should have thought that the obligation to allow freedom of movement to EEC nationals has superseded those agreements. Therefore, this matter should be looked into. If Community passports were issued to these travellers, no doubt the problems, which have been very unfortunate at certain ports on the north coast of the Continent of Europe, would no longer arise.
I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, for having exceeded the 10 minutes which he laid

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down. I did not formally agree to the proposal. I apologise to the House for having spoken four minutes over my time, but I hope that some of the thoughts which I have shared with your Lordships will be answered by my noble friend.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Morris: My Lords, those who know and admire the work of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, will not be in the least surprised by the welcome gravity and the pellucid clarity of this report. In addition, those noble Lords who have attended the whole of this debate must be wondering whether there is anything left for me to say. I am delighted to be able to inform your Lordships that there is very little indeed.
In reading this report, which I found immensely interesting and from which I have learned a great deal, I was rather sad but not really surprised to learn from the evidence that was given by Dr. Taschner, when he answered a question of devastating simplicity put to him by the chairman of Sub-Committee "E", namely, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, that he had let the cat out of the bag quite seriously with regard to the point of delay. It must be immensely sad for the members of these committees, who work so terribly hard in order to influence the decision-making process, to hear that the answer to the question, "What do you see as the objectives that this proposal is designed to achieve?" is: "To make the first step in the direction of passport union". This should be the final objective—not tomorrow, not the day after tomorrow, but perhaps in the future. This of course is a recipe for doing absolutely nothing at all.
We have all suffered very many examples of the Government doing nothing, for it is fundamentally the easiest answer to all the problems that lie at their door. However, it is my belief, which is not necessarily of any importance whatsoever, that when the European Communities receive reports of this clarity and quality they should be immensely grateful for them and should take great note of them.
The only other point I should like to make is the one referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, concerning the figures which were quoted to the committee by the Home Office; namely, the time that it takes an immigration official to process a member of the European Communities. It was given as six seconds. I know from my own experience that it is disingenuous to consider this point alone. When you see only two or three immigration officers processing a planeload of some 350 people you know that it takes a great deal longer than six seconds to get through that process. I would suggest that one of the greatest benefits in the easing of frontier formalities would be to increase the number of staff at the frontier points rather than to decrease them. This would make life a great deal easier for inter-Community travellers.
6.20 p.m.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I am sure we are all most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, for so eloquently bringing to the notice of the House the report of the European Communities Committee on the Easing of Frontier Formalities. I
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would add that the Government are very grateful for this report on this draft Council resolution.
As your Lordships know, discussion of the proposal is at only a very early stage in Brussels and the committee's analysis will be a great help to us in the continuing negotiations. We have also listened to the very interesting speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, and my noble friends Lord Morris and Lady Elles. If I omit any points they have raised, I shall be delighted to write to them. I am grateful to both the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, and my noble friend for their prior notice.
The committee have pointed out that the resolution proposed by the Commission would have no legally binding effect. We should nevertheless be bound to have regard to it if we had agreed its terms because it would be, in the Commission's words, a "gentleman's agreement". The committee were not sure that the proposal to abolish systematic checks on the entry of EC nationals to this country could be brought about without a change in our domestic law. I believe that changes in domestic law could well be required. The Commission's answer to that is "Very well, change the United Kingdom law". But I do not think it is desirable that the United Kingdom's immigration law should be made for us in this way in an area which has impact outside the scope of the Treaty of Rome. We are, of course, sympathetic to the Commission's wish to create symbols which would give EC nationals a greater sense of belonging to a community of states. And I think that we should all agree that easing the formalities of travel abroad is desirable for its own sake where it can be done without damage. But the Government's ability to respond positively to this sort of proposal has to take account of the practical consequences for our system of immigration control.
As I shall explain shortly, we have good reasons for wanting to retain our present system of immigration control at the ports, which relies on an ability to carry out systematic checks, and we could not accept any proposal which might lessen our ability to do this. In paragraph 9 of the report the committee recommend that the resolution should be considered by the Governments of the member states rather than by the European Council. In the Government's view, such proposals as this would indeed be more appropriately considered in a political forum in which the member states could decide for themselves what is practical and possible.
I am sure I do not need to dwell at length on the reasons why the Commission's proposal for the abolition of systematic checks at ports is unacceptable to us; and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, has already given some examples of this. As your Lordships know, we are able to take advantage of our position as an island to place the emphasis of our immigration control on checks at the ports. Our EC partners with long land frontiers are not so fortunate and must rely much more on internal checks on the movements of foreign nationals in and out of their countries. Systematic checks at the ports are perhaps not so vital to them as to us and this places the United Kingdom in a difficult position in responding to the Commission.
The draft resolution refers to "internal frontiers" but the Commission have made it clear that they mean

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any port through which EC nationals pass. I realise that some of this ground has been covered already, but I feel that I should repeat the Government's point of view for the sake of the record. The only realistic way of achieving their objective would be to abolish systematic checks on EC nationals arriving from any part of the world. All that we could demand from them on arrival at a United Kingdon port would be a sight of the front cover of their passport or identity card. Occasional spot checks and questioning would be allowed, but only where the immigration officer believed that there were special reasons.
Your Lordships will appreciate, as the Committee did, the possibilities for abuse which could greatly undermine the effectiveness of our control. There would also be the risk that constant arguments would follow as to what constituted a spot check—and EC nationals who objected if an immigration officer looked into their passports would complain to the Commission and demands for explanations would follow.
I think it is fair to ask whether this proposed change of procedure is really necessary. As far as the United Kingdom is concerned, I do not think that it is. There was general agreement among those who gave evidence to the committee that it took longer for an EC national to recover his baggage than to pass through immigration control. An EC national can be cleared through immigration control in, on average 12 to 15 seconds; that is, once he arrives at immigration control. I am glad that my noble friend Lady Elles paid tribute to the efficiency of our immigration officers, and I share her view.
There is no suggestion that our present procedures put EC nationals to any real inconvenience—and any advantage to them of abolishing the very short, albeit systematic, check to which they are subjected at present would make very little real difference to the speed of their passage through the airport. What it would do is to hamper immigration officers very considerably in their ability to identify criminals, drug addicts, people on forged papers and people seeking to evade the control by posing as EC nationals and using documents which did not belong to them. The Government's view is that the gains to passengers would be very much outweighed by the loss to the efficiency of the control.
Since the Government have no intention of abolishing their present system of examining passports on entry, there is perhaps little point in my saying much about what we should have to do if we did. The committee agreed, I think, that an internal control involving compulsory identity cards and police powers to examine them would be the only alternative. Some of our EC partners already have such a system. I understand that identity cards are compulsory in Belgium, the Federal Republic of Germany, Greece and Luxembourg. They are not compulsory in France and Italy, although French nationals must be able to produce evidence of identity if challenged. Only Denmark and the Netherlands do not issue them at all. In addition citizens, as well as foreign nationals, in the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Italy, Denmark and the Federal Republic of Germany have to register their addresses with the police or local authorities.
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If the United Kingdom were to adopt a system relying on internal control, it could not be confined to foreign nationals but would have to embrace British citizens as well. The police could not confine their inquiries as to a person's immigration status to foreign nationals because they would first have to establish whether the person was a British citizen or not. I am sure your Lordships will agree that the British people are unlikely to take kindly to any proposal that they should carry identity cards and register their addresses with the police just so as to enable EC nationals to get through immigration control without having their documents checked.
On this particular point, I will finish by saying that I have some difficulties with the committee's conclusion that the Commission's objectives could be better achieved by member states applying identical checks to all EC nationals, drawing no distinction between own nationals and nationals of other member states. It may be that other member states make a greater distinction than we do between own nationals and others, but I think that such a distinction is inevitable and could not be abolished. As your Lordships know, British citizens have a right to enter this country and their passports are only examined at the ports to make sure that the individual in question does indeed have that right. EC nationals, even if they are workers coming here in exercise of their free movement treaty rights, have no such right. They can be refused entry on grounds of public policy, public security and public health, and that is the difference.
Immigration officers have a duty to satisfy themselves that EC nationals presenting themselves at the control can properly be admitted, and that is what accounts for the examination taking a few seconds longer, on average, than it does for British citizens. I do not honestly think that there is any possibility of doing away with the distinction between the way we treat own nationals and other EC nationals, although the immigration service constantly tries to speed up the clearance rate of passengers such as EC nationals.
It could be, however, that the committee was making a point about the way own nationals and EC nationals approach the immigration control, and this brings me on to the second limb of the Commission's proposal relating to separate channels. The Commission has said that its recommendation that there should be separate channels for EC nationals at ports was influenced by the provision of such channels at Heathrow and Dover. I think I am right in saying that we are in the lead in Europe in making special arrangements to speed the efficient means of clearing EC nationals.
Our criteria for deciding on channelling arrangements at the ports is the most efficient means of clearing the passengers. Our approach is essentially a pragmatic one, in that it is designed to permit flexible response to the demands of passenger traffic. We have occasionally tried to have a combined channel for British and other EC nationals, but it can sometimes be more trouble than it is worth and lead to British passengers being slowed down without any compensating benefits for other EC nationals. Essentially therefore we leave it to the Immigration Service to make the most efficient arrangements it can on the spot, and I think that this is right. I can assure your

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Lordships that we are only too aware of the need to use manpower and space resources as efficiently as possible at the ports and it is something which we keep under constant review. But, as I said, we have provided separate channels for other EC nationals at the ports and airports that handle the bulk of the passenger traffic to and from other member states. We hope that the other member states will be able to follow our lead in this.
Taking the questions put to me by my noble friend Lady Elles, the first one concerned the European Community common format passport. That has been agreed to between member states for introduction on 1st January 1985 or as soon as possible thereafter. It will be smaller than the existing United Kingdom passport, will be burgundy red in colour, and will have "European Community" as well as the name of the member state on the front cover. The Government are committed both to the common format passport and to a machine-readable passport, and a further statement will be made in due course.
Following on that—taking the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon—the new common format passport will be issued to persons when they need new passports. It will be a gradual process with the old ones running their course until they expire, and I shall be in the nine-year situation.
Baroness Elles: My Lords, would my noble friend allow me to put a supplementary question? I was not quite clear whether she said that the passport would be introduced on 1st January 1985. If she cannot say, I quite understand, but could she say whether it is expected to be introduced on that date?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I do not think I can say specifically that that date has been agreed. Consultations are still proceeding as to the date and I would not wish to tie the Government down to the actual date. Certainly agreement has been reached. I did say '"or as soon as possible thereafter".
My noble friend's second point concerned the issue of common format passports to British citizens. I understand that the intention is to issue the common format passport to all persons who will have been defined as United Kingdom nationals for EC purposes. In practice this means British citizens and British dependent territory citizens who acquire citizenship by virtue of their connection with Gibraltar. The exact format of passports issued to those who are not United Kingdom nationals for EC purposes is yet to be decided. In the case of British dependent citizens this will be by consultation with the authorities in the dependent territories concerned.
Point No. 3 raised by my noble friend concerned the British visitors' passport. The Rayner scrutiny of the Passport Office recommended abolition of the British visitors' passport alongside the computerisation of the Passport Office. No decision has yet been taken and the matter will be further considered in the context of the computerisation of the Passport Office.
The fourth point raised by my noble friend is about no-passport excursions and the free movement provisions for EC nationals. The no-passport excursion arrangements with France are not relevant
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to the EC Treaty or the free movement of labour provisions. My noble friend is quite correct that the no-passport excursion arrangements have been voluntarily undertaken on a bilateral basis and are concerned with visitors whose admission they are designed to facilitate on the basis of documentation less formal than a passport or identity card. We regret the way in which the scheme has been operated by the French in recent months and are in contact with them about its future operation. We are hoping to have further talks with them later this month.
The other point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, concerned the right of residence. EC nationals are usually admitted for six months whatever the purpose of their visit. If they wish to remain longer they are required by the immigration rules to obtain a resident's permit from the Home Office. Those who wish to remain are usually workers, businessmen and their families. After four years these people may apply for settlement and may remain without further immigration conditions.
Finally, it may be interesting to your Lordships if I give some indication of the way matters have progressed in Brussels in the past few months. At the end of their presidency in June the Federal Republic of Germany produced an interim report on progress so far. Essentially the working group had to report that it had not been possible to reach agreement, especially on the question of abandoning systematic checks which was seen to pose security and immigration problems for member states. Several countries have said that they could not abandon them, and all agreed that merely showing an unopened common format passport would not be enough to establish citizenship.
I think that this strengthens my message this evening that there are considerable differences in the member states' various systems of frontier checks, and that any proposals for change will have to deal with some complicated relationships. The presidency proposed that trials would be necessary to assess what further easing of formalities would be feasible, what bilateral arrangements would be necessary and what the cost might be in terms of money and manpower. The date for the next meeting of the working group has not been fixed, but we understand that the focus will now be on some sort of feasibility study. The Government will be happy to collaborate in this, provided that what is proposed will not detract from the present effectiveness of the immigration control.
I hope I have now said enough to leave the House in no doubt as to the Government's welcome for this report and the very useful arguments and analysis which it contains. We shall do what we can—if I may paraphrase the words of its concluding paragraph—to engender a sense of belonging to the European Community without detracting from the safeguards which we regard as essential.
6.38 p.m.
Lord Scarman: My Lords, the House will be very grateful to the noble Baroness for the formal expression of views on behalf of the Government which we have just heard, and also the care with which she has dealt with a number of questions arising upon passports—questions which do not strictly arise out of this report.

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One matter I should like to mention in reply is the impact of these proposals—or the possible impact of these proposals—if they should become effective, on United Kingdom law. I have no doubt that the committee were quite right in believing that that impact would not be insignificant. Unfortunately, it will be significant in the field of civil rights. That is the underlying danger of dismantling systematic controls in the airports and seaports and substituting for them internal controls.
Every member state of the Community, other than ourselves, and I think the Republic of Ireland, who rely, as they do, on internal checks, being unable to establish satisfactory external frontier checks, have to give and do give a right to the police and other authorities to stop people and demand proof of their identity on the streets, however innocent, saintly and orderly those people are. Those are the legal implications and they are serious.
Summing up, I do not think that our friends in Brussels will be at all surprised either at the course of this debate or at the contents of the report. I think that when Dr. Taschner left this building to return to Brussels he knew—at any rate he could surmise—that so far as the United Kingdom was concerned, discontinuing systematic identity checks at our airports and seaports was a non-runner. I think he also knew that we had a very efficient system—and I am glad that others in this debate have said so—for conducting these checks quickly. I think he also knew that the special channels which we have established, and which are now a model, are the way forward.
There is nothing in this report (and nothing I perceive in this debate) which indicates any lack of will to go forward towards common-form passports and no lack of will to see established at all the busier points of interest special channels for EC nationals. I hope that it will not be interpreted in Brussels and elsewhere that this report—discouraging as it is on one aspect of the proposals—is in any way discouraging ease of movement and travel between member states. That is not the point at all. Our point is something quite different: it is the maintenance of our immigration control in a way which causes the least offence to EC nationals and other innocent visitors—and welcome visitors—to the United Kingdom.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at eighteen minutes before seven o'clock.

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