Sitting of 29 March 1982

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS

  Royal Assent
  Mr. Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

  1. Agricultural Training Board Act 1982.

  2. Industrial Training Act 1982.

  3. Canada Act 1982.

  4. Travel Concessions (London) Act 1982.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  PORT OF LONDON BILL
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers to Questions
  TRADE

    Works of Art (Export Licences)
    Mr. Freudasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will state, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Isle of Ely, Official Report, 10 March, column 406, what other information it is his Department's policy not to disclose.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. Iain Sproat): Each request to my Department for information is considered on its merits
    Mr. Freud: Will the Minister accept that the only sane criteria for withholding information are national security. commercial confidentiality or disproportionate costs? Will[his Department try a little harder when considering export certificates for works of art, or the day-to-day running of the English Tourist Board?
    Mr. Sproat: I did not know that there was any problem about the English Tourist Board or works of art. We grant about 38, 000 export licences a year and approximately 4, 000 of those are for works of art. Of those 4, 000, only 1 or 2 per cent. are controversial. All details about them are published at the end of the year.

    Foreign Trade Balance
    Sir Anthony Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether it remains his policy to seek a balance in United Kingdom foreign trade on a multilateral rather than a bilateral basis.
    The Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. John Biffen): In general terms, yes, Sir.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Will my right hon. Friend be prepared to show considerable patience in explaining to hon. Members on both sides of the House that the days of bilateral barter in trade have long since gone and that what matters to Britain, as a manufacturing and trading country, is to have a high level of trade which remains in reasonable balance overall?
    Mr. Biffen: I accept what my hon. Friend said. However, there are one or two markets, particularly in Eastern Europe, where barter remains the significant part of trade structure
    Mr Gwilym Roberts: Will the Secretary of State accept that whereas we all generally support multilateral agreements, it may be necessary with countries such as Japan to introduce every possible measure, including

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    bilateral talks, to try to reduce their trade imbalance with Britian? Unilateral action may be necessary to stop their imports into Britain
    Mr. Biffen: The hon. Gentleman will have seen that the European Community, the United Kingdom and the United States have sought to conduct discussions with the Japanese to deal with certain aspects of their trade
    Mr Jessel: Further to the question on the Japanese element in multilateral trade, is it true, as reported yesterday, that France limits imports of Japanese cars to 2, 000 per year? If so, is there any reason why we should not do the same?
    Mr. Biffen: The method whereby the French limit Japanese car imports is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. It would not be appropriate for the United Kingdom Government to depart from their existing voluntary restraint arrangement, which pays regard to a whole number of interests, including that of the domestic British purchaser.

    "The Times"
    Mr. John Fraserasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he is satisfied with the observance of the undertakings as to editorial independence that were given to him on the acquisition of The Times
    Mr. Biffen: I do not consider that any of the conditions I imposed relating to editorial independence have been broken. Responsibility for approving the appointment and dismissal of the editor is a matter for the independent national directors and not for me
    Mr. Fraser: Does the Secretary of State agree that what was, in effect, the constructive dismissal of the editor of The Times was a matter of "fire first and ask questions later"? Does this not constitute the second breach of undertakings given to the Secretary of State, the first having been the transfer of the titles, which had to be reversed by Mr. Murdoch? Has the Secretary of State any lessons to learn both from the nature and enforceability of undertakings given to him on the transfer of newspapers?
    Mr. Biffen: If the former editor of The Times thought that he was being constructively dismissed he was under no obligation to resign. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Oh, yes. The man who was a great crusader over thalidomide could have taken the case to the independent national directors. He chose not to. There is no question of the conditions having been infringed. Opposition Members who are trying to mount a crusade simply have not identified the nature of the problem.
    Mr. Aitken: Will my right hon. Friend resist the temptation to go on looking like the emperor who had no clothes, and living in a world of complete make-believe about The Times? If he is so satisfied that the independent national directors played a proper role, will he explain why there was no proper mechanism for calling them to exercise their functions to safeguard editorial independence?
    Mr. Biffen: The mechanism was there, and the former editor of The Times chose not to use it
    Mr. Norman Atkinson: Is the Secretary of State aware that it is now well known on Fleet Street that it was as a result of the direct pressure of the Prime Minister that
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    Rupert Murdoch took the action that he did? Does the whole situation not prove that the golden rule on Fleet Street is that he who owns the gold makes the rules?
    Mr. Biffen: I was not aware.
    Mr. Stokes: Will my right hon. Friend resist the temptation to refer to reporters and editors with the ballyhoo that one uses for footballers or film stars? Does he agree that what matters in the media is the message, not the messengers?
    Mr. Biffen: I have tried to be austere and detached about the matter. That is why I confined my answer to the specific question of the independent national directors and whether the conditions made for editorial independence at the time of the acquisition of Times Newspapers Limited have been infringed. I have to say that they have not.

    Laker Airways (Allocation of Routes)
    Mr. Newensasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will make a statement about the allocation of route licences formerly held by Laker Airways
    Mr. Sproat: The allocation of route licences is, in the first instance, for the Civil Aviation Authority to determine in accordance with its statutory duties. The authority will hold hearings to consider applications to take over the Laker route licences as soon as practicable. The Laker licences have not yet been formally revoked.
    My right hon. Friend has directed the CAA to grant British Caledonian Airways a temporary exemption from licensing arrangements to enable it to operate a service between Gatwick and Los Angeles in place of that operated by Laker.
    Mr. Newens: Is it not clear that in the past the method of allocating routes led to an oversupply of seats at minimum economic cost, with the result that, although passengers gained in the short run through cheap fares, in the long run there have been deficits, bankruptcies, redundancies and passengers losing all their fare money? Is there not a strong case for reviewing the allocation of routes and at least making it clear that no operation in which Mr. Freddie Laker has a part will be allocated any of the routes in future?
    Mr. Sproat: The answer to the question about Sir Freddie Laker is "No". On the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we look again at allocating the routes, the answer is also "No". My officials are this very week discussing with the American authorities the overcapacity of seats on the North Atlantic route.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Will my hon. Friend congratulate the Secretary of State on his sensible decision to grant the Los Angeles route to British Caledonian Airways? Will he remind everyone that British Caledonian is just as much an example of private enterprise as Laker Airways?
    Mr. Sproat: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making those two points. I reinforce what he says by pointing out that the private sector, as opposed to the public sector, last year made a profit. I thank him for his kind remarks about my right hon. Friend, who deserves them.
    Mr. Woolmer: Will the Minister confirm the recent story in the Financial Times that the Government believe

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    that the main cause of uneconomic operations over the North Atlantic is an excess of available seats? Are the Government pressing for a gateway moratorium over the North Atlantic? Has that not been a problem not only for Laker Airways but for all British airlines?
    Mr. Sproat: It is true that in a time of world recession there is a problem of overcapacity. My answer to the hon. Gentleman's specific question about gateway moratoria is "Yes".

    Exports
    Mr. Eggarasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he is satisfied with the level of exports.
    Mr. Biffen: Our recent export performance is encouraging and I hope that we can build on the recent improvements in our labour cost competitiveness.
    Mr. Eggar: Should not British industry be congratulated on what is by any yardstick a fine performance at a time of world trade recession? Additionally, should not my right hon. Friend be happy with the way in which his Department and others have given every possible assistance to British exporters?
    Mr. Biffen: I am certain that the whole House would wish to congratulate British industry on securing the orders, which sustain employment. I take note of my hon. Friend's second point.
    Mr. Chapman: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the level of exports to Russia, bearing in mind that the value of imports from that country has consistently been twice the value of our exports there? Is there not a case for further bargaining with the Russians to encourage them to take more of our goods and to help trade between our two countries to flourish?
    Mr. Biffen: I should welcome an expansion of trade with the Soviet Union, consistent with our other international obligations.

    European Community (Exports)
    Mr. Dykesasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he anticipates a continuation of the trend of increasing trade in United Kingdom exports to other European Economic Community countries through 1982.
    Mr. Biffen: Probably, Sir.
    Mr. Dykes: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, with the present trends, by mid-1984 well over half our total exports will go to other EEC member States? Does that not make it crystal clear that our continuing membership is even more indispensable and vital than we thought hitherto?
    Mr. Biffen: I should be pleased to see the statistics that project that. Our trade with the Community is valuable. Of course, trade is a two-way business. There has been a rise in imports as well as exports. Much will depend on growth within the Community and in markets outside.
    Mr. Straw: Is the Secretary of State aware of the great anxiety in the British textile industry, and particularly the carpet industry, about the degree to which the Belgian carpet industry is subsidised, making it difficult for us to export to Europe and to meet competition from Belgian imports? What action is the Secretary of State taking or proposing to take to deal with the unfair subsidisation?
    Mr. Biffen: It is inherently a matter for the European Commission, but if the carpet industry or the hon. Gentleman approaches my Department to see how best we can formulate a case to sustain his point, we shall be happy to help.
    Mr. Marlow: Is my right hon. Friend aware that an extrapolation of the figures for trade with the EEC for the last two months of last year—an £850 million deficit in manufacturing—shows that by the year 1990 we should have a deficit in manufacturing trade of about £30, 000 million? Does that not prove the absurdity of European fanatics putting forward bogus statistics to prove unprovable facts?
    Mr. Biffen: Again, I am trying to be austere and detached about this highly emotional topic. Projections into the future should be undertaken only on the basis of carefully assessed scientific material.
    Mr. Jay: Does the Minister think that the trend of food prices to increase is likely to continue?
    Mr. Biffen: Inasmuch as such a reply is required of me, I should have thought that it would be "Yes".

    Lodge Road Builders (Newspaper Report)
    Mr. Terry Davisasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he is sending any reply to the Birmingham Evening Mail in connection with its article on the activities of Lodge Road Builders, which was sent to the Department at its invitation at the end of January; and if he will publish his reply in the Official Report.
    The Minister for Consumer Affairs (Dr. Gerard Vaughan): I have read the local press cuttings on this matter with concern. I have passed them to the Director General of Fair Trading in order that he can consider whether he would be justified under part III of the Fair Trading Act 1973 to seek assurances from those concerned that they will refrain from such conduct in future.
    Mr. Davis: Is the Minister aware that part of the problem is that it is impossible for people to contact Lodge Road Builders? Is it not a scandal that con men in firms such as Lodge Road Builders can use "Yellow Pages" to obtain business and can charge extortionate amounts of money for work that is done badly or not at all? Can nothing be done to protect the public against such unscrupulous people?
    Dr. Vaughan: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has raised the question. It is a matter of concern and I am looking into it. In this case, the papers have gone to the Office of Fair Trading, and the trading standards department is also looking into the matter to see whether a prosecution would be appropriate. The Supply of Goods and Services Bill, which will come before the House on Friday, and which will codify that area of the law, will also be helpful.

    Air Travel (Indemnity Scheme)
    Mr. Guy Barnettasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he has completed his consideration of an indemnity scheme for loss of advance payments by scheduled air travel passengers.
    Mr. Sproat: This work is continuing. There are a number of possible approaches, but all of them present difficult problems and I cannot yet say whether a workable solution will be found.
    Mr. Barnett: Is not a workable solution absolutely essential? Does not the Minister regard it as totally unsatisfactory that he wrote to me on 12 March about an elderly lady in my constituency who had saved up to travel by Laker Airways and was told by him that the only advice that he could give was that as an unsecured creditor she should make contact with the receiver?
    Mr. Sproat: That may be unsympathetic advice, but it is extremely sound. I advise the hon. Gentleman to ask his constituent to follow it.
    Mr. Dobson: In view of the importance of early warning in any system, will the Minister tell us whether he or any other Ministers were informed before Christmas of doubts about the financial viability of Laker Airways?
    Mr. Sproat: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. John Fraser: Is there not a general problem about consumers paying in advance for services? Will the Department publish as early as possible the Cork committee report on insolvency, which might give consumers under those circumstances more priority than ordinary creditors?
    Mr. Sproat: I do not know the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question, but I shall find out and let him know.

    British Airways
    Mr. Allen McKayasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will make a statement on his consideration of the Price Waterhouse report on British Airways.
    Mr. Sproat: British Airways commissioned a report from Price Waterhouse to help the airline return to profitability. British Airways has sent me a copy of the report. It contains commercially confidential information, and British Airways do not intend to publish it. My right hon. Friend and I shall, however, be discussing with them the report and their response to its recommendations.
    Mr. McKay: Does the Price Waterhouse report make any recommendations regarding the capital reconstruction of British Airways? How much will be required either to pay off the loan debt or to go into equity shares, if that is the way the Minister decides to go? Is there any truth in the newspaper report that that money amounts to about £600 million?
    Mr. Sproat: I advise the hon. Gentleman not to believe everything that he reads in the newspapers about the report. I have already said that it is a confidential report commissioned by British Airways and not by us. Therefore, it is not up to us to reveal its contents.
    Mr. Bowen Wells: Does the report help my hon. Friend to decide how and when British Airways shares will be made available to the public?
    Mr. Sproat: The truth is always helpful.
    Mr. John Smith: Does the Minister agree that what the Government might or might not do about BA on the taxpayers' behalf is a matter of legitimate concern to the
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    House and the public? Will he confirm that the Government will not write off any loan debt or translate it into equity in a way that involves the taxpayer putting a large amount of money into British Airways before it is sold to private interests?
    Mr. Sproat: I was asked about Price Waterhouse, not about British Airways' finances. The Price Waterhouse report was commissioned by British Airways. Therefore, it is not up to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State or me to reveal its contents to the public. If Sir John King wishes to do so, that is up to him. With regard to future plans about British Airways and its privatisation, the right hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see.
    Mr. Dubsasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will review his policy towards British Airways to exclude the sale of profitable subsidiaries.
    Mr. Sproat: Although the Government's aim has been to sell to the private sector a stake in British Airways as a whole, I would not exclude the separate disposal of a subsidiary if the British Airways board, in the exercise of its commercial judgment, decides that the airline's future interests are best served by such a disposal.
    Mr. Dubs: Does it make sense to threaten British Airways with the sale of its profitable and enterprising subsidiaries when the British Airways board is making enormous efforts to get the whole operation back into the black?
    Mr. Sproat: I commend strongly the efforts of the British Airways board. I should also like to commend the attitude of many members of British Airways' staff during the present ramp strike. They are showing a splendid spirit for the future. With regard to the future and the sale of subsidiaries, there is no question of a threat. The decision on whether to sell a subsidiary is for the British Airways board. There is no pressure from me that it should do so.
    Mr. Hoyle: Will the Minister take on board that I was pleased to hear him say a few kind words about British Airways because he seems to spend most of his time denigrating, not assisting it? Surely it would not be beneficial to sell profitable subsidiaries. Will the Minister not take up most of his time making apologies for Laker, who was a bad employer of staff?
    Mr. Sproat: It is always pleasant to hear kindly words from the hon. Gentleman. The kindly words that I pushed in the direction of British Airways were well deserved. When criticism is necessary I will give it as equally as I will give praise where that is due.
    Mr. Les Huckfield: As the Minister mentioned the ramp dispute, does he agree that the attitude of British Airways management in locking out a section of its staff will hardly enhance its future financial prospects? Will he
    encourage British Airways to take a more positive attitude, at least towards negotiating in the dispute, or is he standing idly by on the sidelines making critical noises in the hope that the dispute will precipitate the break-up of British Airways?
    Mr. Sproat: The answer to the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question is "No, certainly not." The details of the dispute are a matter for the British Airways board.
    Mr. Marlowasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will make a statement on his proposals to privatise British Airways.
    Mr. Sproat: The Government intend to sell a controlling stake in British Airways to the private sector as soon as practicable. I very much welcome the steps which the British Airways board is taking to improve profitability and enhance the propects of an early sale.
    Mr. Marlow: What is the earliest date by which my hon. Friend anticipates that British Airways can be back in profit? Is there any chance that the Government will sell a stake in British Airways before then?
    Mr. Sproat: I hope that British Airways will be profitable in the next financial year. As I have already said, if the British Airways board decided that it wanted to sell a subsidiary in the meantime, I would not stand in its way.
    Mr. Woolmer: What sense can it make for the Government to allow British Airways to consider flogging subsidiaries that make a profit of £20 million a year if the Government wish to privatise the airline? Does Price Waterhouse have any bearing on the Government's policy to privatise British Airways? Is it not a scandal that the Government refuse to publish a report that involves potentially hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money, in a desperate bid to flog a national asset?
    Mr. Sproat: There is no scandal. It is not my report to publish. If Sir John King wishes to do so, that is up to him. The selling of subsidiaries in the meantime is for the commercial judgment of British Airways. If they consider that getting the cash in the short term from such sales will be to its benefit, they will do so. If they decide that it is better to sell British Airways altogether in the long term, they will do so. We shall not stand in its way in either direction.
    Mr. Colvin: Will my hon. Friend acknowledge that reducing their labour force from some 58, 000 to 43, 000 in just over two years is no mean effort on the part of British Airways? Furthermore, they have pruned 16 international uneconomic routes and reduced their borrowing by some £160 million. Will my hon. Friend acknowledge that and perhaps take this opportunity to pay tribute to British Airways for the efforts that they are making to get their house in order and enable the corporation to write a prospectus for the sale of its shares in due course?
    Mr. Sproat: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity, which I take yet again, to pay tribute to all the good things that British Airways are doing. However, they are taking that action because they are almost £1 billion in debt and had a trading loss of £141 million last year. I am happy to give praise where praise is due, but the action that British Airways are taking is necessary because of the faults of the past, which must be rectified as soon as possible.
    Mr. John Smith: The Minister implies that he has no objection to the Price Waterhouse report being made available. He suggests that the difficulty arises because it is British Airways' report. Will he respond to the interest that has been shown in the House and the high public importance that attaches to this issue by asking Sir John King to make the report available to Members of Parliament and placing it in the Library?
    Mr. Sproat: There was no such implication in my remarks. I merely made a neutral statement that Sir John
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    King commissioned the report. It is therefore up to him to make it available if he wishes to do so. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that if Sir John decided that it was in the interests of British Airways to publish the report, we would not stand in his way.

    European Community (Balance of Trade)
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will make a statement on the latest balance of trade figures between the United Kingdom and other European Community countries.
    Mr. Biffen: The United Kingdom had a slight surplus on trade with the Community according to the admittedly incomplete figures so far published for 1981.
    Mr. Chapman: I welcome that apparent surplus. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the value of our exports to EEC countries in the past eight years has increased more than sixfold and that West Germany has now become our largest customer? If that is so, should not those who contemplate the United Kingdom withdrawing from the EEC understand the damaging consequences of doing so, especially for Britain's economy?
    Mr. Biffen: I confirm the statistics quoted by my hon. Friend. I add my voice to those who would deprecate any erection of tariffs between the United Kingdom and the European Community.
    Mr. Jay: Before deprecating anything, can the right hon. Gentleman give us the extent of the surplus that he mentioned and the level of our present oil exports to the EEC?
    Mr. Biffen: I am not clear that I have mentioned any surplus, and the figures quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mr. Chapman) did not refer to any surplus. However, oil is a significant factor in the trade between the United Kingdom and the European Community. Taking one year with another, there is no surplus resulting from the United Kingdom's trade with the European Community. The right hon. Gentleman can make what he will of that.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: If oil is left out of account and we deal only with trade in manufactures, is it not a fact that the cover of imports by exports is substantially better in our trade with the EEC than it is in our trade with either Japan or the United States?
    Mr. Biffen: Broadly speaking, yes. I agree with my hon. Friend's argument. The House might like to know that in the last four months of 1981 the deficit in trade in manufactures with the European Community amounted to £1, 400 million.
    Mr. Hoyle: Will the Secretary of State confirm that we have a far larger trade deficit in manufactures with West Germany than we have with Japan and nearly every other country? Surely this shows that we are being given doctored figures by the apologists for the EEC.
    Mr. Biffen: The figures offered by my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) are a far fairer interpretation of the relative balance between the United Kingdom and Germany and the United Kingdom and Japan than the figures presented by the hon. Gentleman. We have far greater access to the German market and a far better ratio of exports of our manufactured goods relative to our imports from Germany than we have with Japan.

    Textile and Clothing Products
    Mr. Parkasked the Secretary of State for Trade what is the total value of imports of textiles and clothing products for the latest available month and for the same period 12 months before.
    Mr. Biffen: Imports of textiles and textile clothing were valued at £247 million cif in December 1981 and at £204 million cif in December 1980.
    Mr. Park: Does the Minister recognise that the level of imports could be greatly depressed by the effect of the Government's policies, and that if there is a recovery in the economy it might not necessarily lead to increases for British textiles or British jobs? Has he initiated any specific steps to monitor any such upsurge?
    Mr. Biffen: I am sure that the recovery in the economy—the evidence of which is now very apparent—will be much welcomed by the hon. Gentleman and welcomed not less by my right hon. and hon. Friends. I accept that it could have an impact upon the levels of imports of textiles. It is a matter that is contained within the multi-fibre arrangement and we believe that the cutbacks that we have secured in the five group 1 clothing categories with the four dominant suppliers, the anti-surge mechanism and the likely continuation of members' use of certain quotas will limit the extent to which there will be a rise in imports.
    Mr. Woolmer: Does the Minister accept that it is surprising that the imports of textiles and clothing have increased by such a significant amount in the middle of a depressed market? Does the right hon. Gentleman have any estimate of the import penetration ratio in these industries? What is the state of the negotiations that are taking place with Mediterranean countries, especially Spain and Portugal, which pose a problem over and above the MFA low-cost countries?
    Mr. Biffen: The negotiations are being conducted by the European Commission under a mandate that has already been discussed by the House. I shall seek the information on import ratios that the hon. Gentleman has requested and send it to him.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Does my right hon. Friend think it rather odd that Labour Members seem to spend a substantial amount of their time urging the industrial development of the Third world and underdeveloped countries but start to whine as soon as they begin to export to the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Biffen: Yes, I think that they believe in Socialism with a white face. They become highly discriminatory. The hostility of the narrow-minded "Little Englanders" on the Opposition Benches is terrifying when one deals with items such as textiles, without which the developing countries cannot pretend to have the resources to engage in a wider trade.

    Consumer Services (Information)
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will introduce legislation to improve the accuracy of the information provided for the public by estate agents, holiday sellers and other similar consumer oriented services; and if he will make a statement.
    Dr. Vaughan: I shall keep the position under review, but I see no case at present for new legislation of this kind.
    Mr. Roberts: Will the Minister accept that I have had a mass of letters from holiday makers who have found that the reality has been completely different from the dream described in the holiday brochure?
    Mr. Beaumont-Dark: It sounds like Socialism to me.
    Mr. Roberts: Does the Minister accept that many trading standards officers have told me that they are extremely unhappy with existing legislation?
    Dr. Vaughan: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. This is an important point and I join him in condemning brochures that mislead people and misrepresent the services to be provided. However, taken in the context of the many holidays sold, I suspect that there are few such cases. The holiday industry is making progress on a self-regulatory and voluntary basis to improve the protection available under the Trades Description Act 1968. We should welcome that.

    British Airways
    Mr. Jim Marshallasked the Secretary of State for Trade when he expects British Arways to be in profit after interest payments.
    Mr. Stottasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he has made any recent revision of his estimate of when he expects British Airways to break even.
    Mr. Heddleasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will make a statement on the financial position of British Airways.
    Mr. Snapeasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he has changed his assessment of the losses likely to be sustained by British Airways in the current financial year since the Committee stage of the Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill.
    Mr. Sproat: I cannot give a precise figure, but I understand that British Airways, in the financial year that is just ending, will show a loss a good deal larger than the £141 million pre-tax loss last year. This is quite unsatisfactory, and I expect the board to take whatever measures are necessary to restore profitability in the shortest possible time. I am confident that it is making every effort to do so.
    Mr. Marshall: In view of the uncertainty in the Minister's mind, does he not agree that it would be economic madness to attempt to keep to the Government's timetable to privatise British Airways by 1984? Does he agree that if that policy is pursued, British Airways will inevitably be sold at a price well below its long-term value, which will mean further substantial losses to the British taxpayer?
    Mr. Sproat: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. I can tell him and the House that Her Majesty's Government are determined to stick to their timetable to privatise British Airways as fast as is practicable.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that the management of British Airways is with the Government on privatisation and that its efforts to make the company profitable should be encouraged and not discouraged?
    Mr. Sproat: I certainly agree and I strongly commend the work that Sir John King, Mr. Dibbs and Mr. Roy Watts are doing about that. I gladly pay tribute to the tough but necessary decisions that they have made.
    Mr. John Smith: Can the Minister give any justification, from the point of view of the public interest, for the Government wiping out or acquiring the loan debts of British Airways before selling their shares to the private sector? What will be gained by such a manoeuvre?
    Mr. Sproat: I do not care to comment on a hypothesis.
    Mr. Colvin: Notwithstanding the fact that the Government intend to privatise British Airways as soon as possible, will my hon. Friend acknowledge that at the end of the previous financial year British Airways had outstanding debts of about £633 million and that before a prospectus can be written for the sale of those shares the Government may have to do something about writing off their debts? British Airways do not receive money from the Government, but guarantees to borrow money abroad. Did my hon. Friend bear that in mind before making his statement about privatisation?
    Mr. Sproat: Yes indeed, all the relevant information is being borne in mind.
    Later——
    Mr. Freud: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During Question Time, when the Under-Secretary of State for Trade answered question 24, he announced that he was linking it with questions 21, 30 and 38. Is it procedurally correct retrospectively to link questions with those that have gone? If it is, can one demand one's right if one comes into the Chamber having missed one's question?
    Mr. Speaker: It is an act of kindness on the part of the Minister. The hon. Member concerned may have come into the Chamber since his question was called. That is exactly the kindness that both sides of the House show to each other.

    Civil Aviation Policy
    Mr. Ginsburgasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will set out the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards civil aviation in the form of a White Paper.
    Mr. Sproat: No, Sir.
    Mr. Ginsburg: Will the Minister reconsider that brief and unsatisfactory reply? Is he aware that if he proceeds to privatise British Airways, despite some substantial losses, surely before that crucial decision—which involves legislation—is taken, he should at least have before him the reports on the future of the airways authorities in Britain and the distribution of airports, which crucially affect British Airways' policies and operation?
    Mr. Sproat: I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of the facts that he has mentioned, but I do not agree that it is necessary to publish a further White Paper on those matters before moving ahead to privatise British Airways.
    Mr. Jessel: Is my hon. Friend aware that on many flights it is easy to get a smoker's seat but quite difficult to get a non-smoker's seat, which suggests that some airlines, in deciding the proportions of each, have fallen behind the shift in public taste on such matters? Will he ask the Civil Aviation Authority, which grants licences, to consult the airlines to see what can be done about the matter?
    Mr. Sproat: No, Sir.
    Mr. Jessel: Why not?
    Mr. Sproat: The simple reason is that that question is best directed to Sir John King, Mr. Adam Thomson and Mr. Newman of Dan-Air.
    Mr. Foulkes: Can the Minister confirm that the Government have no plans to privatise the British Airports Authority, either as a whole or by selling off individual airports?
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Rather a good idea.
    Mr. Sproat: My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant) is putting ideas into my head. I shall wish to consider what the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Foulkes) said.
    Mr. Bowen-Wells: In the light of the figures for British Airways that the Minister gave in answer to earlier questions, and bearing in mind the question of equality for civil aviation, would it not be better to consider the sale of British Airways' assets, licences and routes so that we diminish the number of airlines operating out of Britain in a market that is clearly over-saturated?
    Mr. Sproat: I am glad, as I said in answer to the previous question, to take almost any idea into account. However, an idea that diminishes competition in the airline industry would not be a good idea.
    Mr. John Smith: Earlier the Minister expressed a dislike of answering a hypothetical question. In the light of his previous answer, will he give an undertaking to the House that the Government will not consider writing off the capital debt of British Airways at the taxpayer's expense before offering shares to the public?
    Mr. Sproat: The right hon. Gentleman is simply trying to wrap up his previous question—which was obviously hypothetical—in language that is less hypothetical. I have no intention of answering either his previous question or this one.

    China
    Mr. Edwin Wainwrightasked the Secretary of State for Trade what are the amounts of exports and imports to China over each of the past four years.
    Dr. Vaughan: The value of trade with China in the years 1978–80 is given in tables II—imports—and V—exports—of the 1979 annual edition and the December 1980 issue of the Overseas Trade Statistics of the United Kingdom, copies of which are in the Library. Information for the 1981 calendar year is not yet available, owing to last year's Civil Service dispute.
    Mr. Wainwright: May I thank the Minister for such a non-reply? Is he satisfied that we are making the attempt s that we should to increase trade with China, taking into account the fact that it will have a population of 1, 000 million within the next few years, which is a tremendous market? Should we not have greater contact with China than at present?
    Dr. Vaughan: I believed that I was assisting the hon. Gentleman, so that he would know where the figures for which he asked are available. This is a matter mainly for my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Trade. I visited China to discuss not only health matters but general

    15
    trade matters and there is a deep concern in both countries that we should increase trade in exactly the way that the hon. Gentleman has in mind.

    Textile and Clothing Products (Imports)
    Mr. Woolmerasked the Secretary of State for Trade what steps he has taken so far to monitor possible surges in imports of textiles and clothing products in 1982.
    Mr. Biffen: Officials of the Department of Industry already closely monitor import statistics and they will be paying particular attention this year to any increased utilisation of quotas.
    Mr. Woolmer: In view of the figures that the Secretary of State quoted earlier, which showed an increase of over 20 per cent. in imports during the past 12 months, does he confirm the importance of properly controlling surges in imports to take advantage of the British market? Is he satisfied that the measures to control the surge in imports during the next 12 months will be adequate? Can he remind the House whether he will employ further staff in his Department to monitor textile and clothing imports so as to prevent an unwarranted surge?
    Mr. Biffen: The hon. Gentleman's figure of 20 per cent. refers to value and not to volume. However, I certainly take his point about staff numbers. I assure him that the Department of Industry is paying especially close attention to the matter.
    Mr. Sainsbury: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that if there is a surge in imports, that may well be because that is the only way that consumer demand, or a changing pattern of consumer demand, can be met in the absence of supplies from United Kingdom sources? Will he consult carefully with the retail trade before taking any action on that?
    Mr. Biffen: Yes, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that the mechanism has been devised in consultation with those who advised us at the time of the multi-fibre arrangement.

  OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

    East Caribbean Islands
    Mr. Guy Barnettasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement about the level of development assistance to the East Caribbean islands.
    The Minister for Overseas Development (Mr. Neil Marten): British bilateral aid to the Eastern Caribbean islands in 1980 was £12 million. A table showing expenditure by country will be published in the Official Report. The 1981–82 figure is expected to about £13 million. About 40 per cent. goes to the dependencies and the rest to independent Commonwealth countries and regional projects.
    The East Caribbean islands also benefit from British contributions to the Caribbean Development Bank, the European development fund, the Commonwealth fund for technical co-operation and the United Nations agencies.
    Mr. Barnett: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that these economies are highly vulnerable and will be dependent on overseas aid from Britain—which has a special responsibility towards them—for many years to
    16
    come? Does the right hon. Gentleman also recognise the special difficulties facing Dominica, following hurricane David? As a result of the damage done by that hurricane, its economy has still not been restored.
    Mr. Marten: The answer to both parts of that question is "Yes". I met the Prime Minister of Dominica, Miss Charles, to discuss the problems involved. We have given considerable aid—which is at sea on its way—to the island's banana industry, which has suffered considerably as a result of hurricanes.
    Mr. Bowen Wells: May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the assistance that he is giving to the East Caribbean islands? Will he review the whole programme in the light of the fall in prosperity in almost all those islands because of the reduction in the price of their natural products, such as bananas, nutmegs and other tropical produce? That reduction in prosperity will lead, in turn, to even greater instability than in Grenada, Dominica, and to some extent, St. Lucia. From the Select Committee's recent visit to the area, I know that such action would be welcomed throughout the British Commonwealth.
    Mr. Marten: Aid to the East Caribbean is constantly kept under review.
    Mr. Foulkes: What applications for aid have the Government received from the Government of Grenada since the coup? What aid has been given and what is the British Government's attitude towards applications that they may receive now, or in future, from the Government of Grenada?
    Mr. Marten: In 1980—the last year for which we have figures—Grenada received £53, 000 of technical cooperation, £10, 000 of capital aids and other grants and £195, 000 in loans. We have made it clear to the Government of Grenada that we do not like their human rights record. I shall not go into that point now, as I have done so before. However, when their record improves, we shall consider their problems.
    Following is the table:

    Gross Bilateral Aid Expenditure 1980

    £'000

    Technical Co-operation

    Capital Aid

    Gross Aid Expenditure

    Anguilla

    241

    749

    990

    Antigua

    215

    270

    485

    Barbados

    289

    331

    620

    British Virgin Islands

    276

    955

    1,231

    Dominica

    167

    2,368

    2,535

    Grenada

    53

    205

    258

    Montserrat

    211

    1,011

    1,222

    St. Kitts-Nevis

    305

    472

    777

    St. Lucia

    230

    693

    923

    St. Vincent

    295

    525

    820

    Turks and Caicos Islands

    412

    849

    1,261

    Regional Caribbean

    741

    262

    1,003

    3,435

    8,690

    12,125

    Costa Rica
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Lord Privy Seal on what projects the United Kingdom is currently assisting in Costa Rica.
    Mr. Neil Marten: The United Kingdom is currently assisting with the following projects: the Central American School for Animal Husbandry at Atenas; the National Apprentice Institute at San Jose; and the Centre for Research into Food Technology at San Jose. Expenditure for the current financial year is expected to be about £450, 000.
    Mr. Hooley: Is the Minister aware that Costa Rica's economy has been savagely hit by the fall in coffee prices and the rise in world oil prices and that it now has a balance of payments crisis on its hands? Will he consider helping Costa Rica to develop energy resources, particularly hydro-electric power, in order to reduce its dependence on imported oil?
    Mr. Marten: Costa Rica's financial problems are largely a matter for it to negotiate with the International Monetary Fund. I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's second point in mind.

    Overseas Students
    Mr. Canavanasked the Lord Privy Seal how many overseas students are currently being assisted by funds from his Department.
    Mr. Neil Marten: We have trained over 13, 000 people in the past 12 months on courses of varying length. I hope to sustain a similar programme in 1982, but I cannot at this stage give a total for the whole year. At the moment there are 6, 200 people under training in this country.
    Mr. Canavan: Is the Minister aware that since the Tories came to power there has been a decrease of 25 per cent. in the number of new overseas students coming to Britain, and that the most significant decreases have been found in the number of students coming from developing Commonwealth countries, such as India, Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe? Is he further aware that there has been an increase in the number of Common Market students coming to Britain, who are exempt from paying full-cost fees? If the Department of Education and Science is too blind to see the injustice of all that, will the Minister ensure that his Department helps more students to come from poorer countries, especially Commonwealth countries?
    Mr. Marten: I should very much like to do that. As the hon. Gentleman may know, the Overseas Students Trust has been looking at the problem and hopes to publish its report within a matter of months. It will consider the whole question of students from the Commonwealth and elsewhere and the report will be made available after publication.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that many of the students who attend courses in Britain do not attend universities? Some of them attend private enterprise organisations such as the Air Service Training at Scone, where they learn to be technicians and pilots?
    Mr. Marten: Not all students are at universities. Students also attend technical colleges and a wide spread of educational establishments, which, we hope, will be of help to the developing countries.
    Mr. Douglas-Mann: Does the Minister agree that the training of students in Britain is of substantial commercial benefit to Britain in the long term? When those who have been trained here return to their countries and attain influential positions, they are likely to purchase our manufactured and scientific goods and our publications. That reflects substantially on our long-term earnings capacity.
    Mr. Marten: Prima facie, that is one of the views taken, and it is probably a good view. That is precisely the type of point that the Overseas Students Trust has been considering, to see how relevant such arguments are.

    Zimbabwe
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowlerasked the Lord Privy Seal what has been the total official development assistance disbursed to Zimbabwe since that country's independence; and how much has been spent on the land transfer scheme.
    Mr. Neil Marten: Disbursements of official development assistance to Zimbabwe since independence total £50 million. The Zimbabwe Government have submitted claims, which we have met, for £2·6 million in respect of the land resettlement programme.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. How confident is he that the total amount of aid promised at, and since, independence will be disbursed within the time scale envisaged? What progress has he made in persuading other countries to join the United Kingdom in helping to fund the land transfer scheme?
    Mr. Marten: I hope that all the money will be spent within the three years in which it was promised. So far, the Netherlands, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia have agreed to help with the land resettlement scheme. Contributions will also be made from the European development fund and the African Development Bank.
    Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Will my right hon. Friend do his best to give every possible assistance to the Jairos Jiri centres in Zimbabwe, which do such excellent work with the disabled? Will he help them to spread their knowledge of how to deal with the disabled to other developing countries in Africa?
    Mr. Marten: I have met Mr. Jairos Jiri and discussed the problem with him. We were of considerable help to him during the International Year of Disabled People. It is primarily a matter for Mr. Jiri and the Government of Zimbabwe to spread to other countries knowledge of what he is doing.
    Mr. Spearing: Can the Minister tell the House what proportion of the £2·6 million that he mentioned is spent on land purchase? Even if all of it has been spent on land purchase, does he agree that that is a small proportion of the funds that have been made available? Can he tell the House where he believes the constraining factors are in what is a crucial programme to Zimbabwe?
    Mr. Marten: It is a complicated subject and one that requires a lot of study before the Zimbabwe Government go ahead with any particular area of that project. There is no hold-up on our side. We are entirely ready to honour anything that is submitted to us, but it is a much bigger problem than the average outsider realises.

    Aid Statistics
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on the current proportions of United Kingdom overseas aid allocated through bilateral agreements, through United Nations agencies and through other multilateral agencies.
    Mr. Neil Marten: In 1980, the latest year for which figures are available, the proportions of United Kingdom aid, on the basis of gross public expenditure, were as follows: bilateral 70 per cent.; European community group 14 per cent.; World Bank group 9 per cent.; United Nations agencies 5 per cent.;other multilaterals 2 per cent.
    Mr. Chapman: I appreciate the work done by many international agencies. Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is Government policy that, wherever practicable
    20
    Government aid should be through bilateral agreements? Does he agree that only by direct negotiations between Britain and the recipient country will it become more likely that the aid will be effectively deployed and go to those people most in need?
    Mr. Marten: Yes, Sir. That is absolutely right. However, we have a problem in that we need to meet existing commitments, many of which were entered into a long time ago. We must honour those.

    STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS &c.
    Ordered,
    That the draft Grants by Local Authorities (Appropriate Percentage and Exchequer Contributions) Order 1982 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Mather.]

United Kingdom Trident Programme
Mr. Cranley Onslow: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry that I have to raise this matter as a point of order. Perhaps it will help hon. Members who hope to take part in the debate to know that in the Vote Office there is a transcript of the evidence given by the Secretary of State when he appeared before the Select Committee on Defence on the subject of Trident. Hon. Members my obtain copies of that evidence.
I hope that some more routine way can be found to notify the House of matters such as this rather than the Chairman of the Committee having to raise it as a point of order at the start of the debate.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. We must find another way, even if I have to announce it myself. There is no other way of giving the information to the House.
3.33 pm
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. John Nott): I beg to move,
That this House endorses the Government's decision to maintain a strategic nuclear deterrent and to choose the Trident H (D5) missile system as the successor to the Polaris force.
Mr. Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Nott: It was on 1 March 1955 that the then Prime Minister, Mr. Winston Churchill, opened the debate in the House which foreshadowed the development and production of the hydrogen bomb—and subsequently the creation of the first British strategic nuclear deterrent. He said then:
We live in a period, happily unique in human history, when the whole world is divided intellectually and to a large extent geographically between the creeds of Communist discipline and individual freedom, and when, at the same time, this mental and psychological division is accompanied by the possession by both sides of the obliterating weapons of the nuclear age."
He went on to say:
It is now the fact that a quantity of plutonium, probably less than would fill this Box on the Table … suffice to produce weapons which would give indisputable world domination to any great Power which was the only one to have it. There is no absolute defence against the hydrogen bomb. …
What ought we to do? Which way shall we turn to save our lives and the future of the world? It does not matter so much to old people;"
Churchill was then aged 80—
"they are going soon anyway, but I find it poignant to look at youth in all its activity and ardour and, most of all, to watch little children playing their merry games, and wonder what would lie before them if God wearied of mankind."—0fficial Report, 1 March 1955; Vol. 537, c. 1893–95.]
All of us share a feeling of deep concern, even foreboding, about the future. All of us fear the idea of war, and, heaven forbid, of nuclear war. Imagination stands appalled. There can be no other aim but to preserve peace. But how? Every hon. Member of the House, I do not doubt, would choose balanced and verifiable disarmament as the sanest route to a safer world. We all seek to bring it about.
It is not necessary to be a pacifist or a unilateralist or a Socialist, if I may say so, to see the essential lunacy of two great Powers acquiring ever more efficient delivery systems, each of them armoured with multiple warheads, whose sole purpose is to deter the use of the strategic armoury of the other side. That is why we want START to begin at the earliest opportunity.
22
Nor, at the theatre level, can any security justification be perceived for the Soviets deploying 900 SS20 warheads—150 of them this year, in the last three months, when the modernisation of similar systems in Europe has not begun. This is lunacy as well. That is why the West has tabled the zero-option at Geneva—and why we stand by its objectives. But, lunatic or not, this is the world in which we live—and these are the realities that we are forced to contemplate while we strive for progress towards genuine two-sided disarmament that would sustain a balance of security on both sides of the divide.
Force and science, hitherto the servants of mankind, are now threatening to become his master. We cannot arrest the advance of knowledge, and who can say, 20 or 30 years from now, what fool, what knave, what lunatic, will threaten our children and our grandchildren with these weapons? Our overriding duty, while protecting the security of our own people, is to strive towards genuine multilateral disarmament. We cannot shuffle off all responsibility for our people's future by the futile gesture of renunciation.
In this debate we are discussing matters of the utmost importance for the future security of this country; matters which are the heaviest responsibility that any Government have to bear. Our horror at the power of these nuclear weapons must, indeed, inform our discussion, but it must not prevent us from facing the issues and discussing them methodically.
The motion before the House refers to the Government's determination to maintain a credible independent strategic deterrent, and to our decision that the Trident II (D5) missile carried in a new generation of British-built submarines is the best way of doing so, from the mid-1990s on. Our determination rests on three propositions. We believe that it is essential to the security of the United Kingdom that we retain a strategic nuclear deterrent. We believe that a submarine-launched ballistic missile is the only effective way to ensure that credibility into the twenty-first century. Finally, on the evidence available to us, we believe that the Trident II (D5) missile system is the most cost-effective way of ensuring our deterrent needs when Polaris ceases to be credible.
Let me turn, therefore, to the first proposition: that we should maintain the unbroken continuity of our independent deterrent which stretches back to the V-bomber force in the 1950s, to Polaris today, and, we propose, to Trident in the 1990s and beyond.
Mr. Denzil Davies: The motion does not refer to an independent strategic nuclear deterrent. Is that an oversight or is it intentional?
Mr. Nott: I shall come in a moment to whether it is fully independent.
No one in the House has any quarrel with the Russian people. My reading of their history leads me to the belief that the Russians are a brave nation who have suffered more than their fair share of human exploitation through the ages. I hope that one day the Russian people will be our allies, just as the Germans are today.
Our quarrel is not with the Russian people, who have no say. Our quarrel is with a hostile ideology that holds a contempt for human freedom, and with a Communist dictatorship that has the apparent will to impose that ideology by force of arms on others.
Even if we do not believe that the present ageing Russian leadership, with personal memories of 20 million

23
Soviet dead, would willingly embark upon some exploit which might expose its citizens to another war of hideous attrition—or least of all to the devastation of a nuclear exchange—we can have no such confidence about a Communist succession and its perceptions.
Who can tell whether tomorrow's Communist leaders might not be prepared to use the awesome power that they now possess to further their beliefs or divert their restless people from a multitude of problems which a crumbling Soviet empire could so easily bring in train? I think that we are bound to judge even today's Soviet leadership not so much by its well-advertised desire for peace as by its actions.
The history of Eastern Europe since the war—Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, the murderous destruction of millions of Soviet citizens by Stalin, and further afield in Angola, Ethiopia, South Yemen and Afghanistan—suggests that the present Communist leadership is prepared to promote its interests by any means when it calculates that it can safely get away with doing so. I see no evidence at all to suggest that the leaders of the Soviet Union respect anything but strength or that they will negotiate seriously if they believe they can retain superiority by manipulating the Western peace movement to achieve their ends.
Rather before my time, but within the experience of the Leader of the Opposition, I am mindful that another godless and authoritarian regime in the 1920s and 1930s gave ample warning by its deeds and by its ideology of what it meant to do. It too did not hesitate to translate its idealogy into action, despite the efforts of others to appease it, primarily because of their sincere abhorrence of war. At that time, 10 million people in this country signed the peace petition, yet hundreds of thousands of them died defending freedom when the ink was hardly dry.
Today, although the memories of that war are fading, and are without the experience of half our nation, we still subscribe to NATO, to prevent such horror happening again—and we use the word "deterrence" in rather general terms to describe the policies of NATO to which, I believe, all political parties in this House subscribe.
But deterrence is not a policy only to prevent the threat of nuclear attack; it also relates to the more easily conceivable threat of the use of any military force, including nuclear blackmail, as an instrument of political aggression. Its purpose is to prevent a ruthless military power using its superiority, either nuclear or conventional, as a political instrument to play upon the sense which others feel of the evils and horrors of war.
To understand NATO's policy—the policy of deterrence—we have to place ourselves in the position and in the mind of an aggressor. Planning deterrence means thinking through the possible reasoning of an adversary, doing this in his terms and not in ours, and allowing for how he might think in future circumstances, not just in today's. It rests, as on a chessboard, on blocking off in advance a variety of possible moves in an opponent's mind.
In thinking through the policy we have to ask ourselves these questions. Would our conventional forces deter if only the other side, and not we, had access to theatre nuclear weapons? Of course not. How would we, even were we to possess conventional superiority, resist attack
24
or political blackmail by his theatre nuclear weapons? In the eyes of the blackmailer or the aggressor, we would have no credible response to a nuclear threat.
Further up the scale of conflict, would theatre nuclear weapons actually deter if only the other side, and not we, had access to strategic nuclear missiles? Of course not. How could we, even if we were to possess theatre nuclear weapons, resist the threat of the annihilation of our homes and cities when he knew that we did not possess a capability to respond in kind? A threat by us in such circumstances to use theatre nuclear weapons would be seen by him as an incredible gesture because he, and not we, could escalate the response beyond our means to respond.
Ultimately, deterrence in the face of nuclear weapons has to rest on the possession of an indestructible second strike capability, so that at no level of attack would the aggressor possess the power to blackmail us into surrender. That is why the communiqué from last week's NATO nuclear planning group, supported by 13 countries,
"noted the continuing build-up by the Soviet Union of its strategic forces, and in that connection supported the determination of the United States and the United Kingdom to ensure the deterrent capabilities of their strategic nuclear forces which are of fundamental importance to the Alliance's strategy. Strategic nuclear forces remain the ultimate guarantee of NATO security."
Mr. Frank Allaun: Is not there a flaw in the right hon. Gentleman's argument? He is saying that the Soviet nuclear weapons justify and necessitate NATO's nuclear weapons such as Trident, cruise missiles and the vast increase in arms spending? If we proceed along that course, will not the Soviet Government say exactly the same? Will not they say "We must further increase our nuclear weapons to keep up with the West"? Thus neither side will be any step further forward, but both will be bankrupting their economies.
Mr. Nott: I was not referring, in what I had just said, to the numbers of strategic nuclear missiles in the world today. I am greatly in favour of the strategic arms reduction talks, and I hope that they will succeed. I was referring to the fact that to possess a theatre nuclear capability, but not a strategic nuclear capability that is invulnerable to attack, would not make the nuclear theatre capability a credible threat, because the other side would be able to escalate beyond our capability to respond.
That brings me to the reason for an exclusive British contribution to NATO strategic forces, which I think is the point that the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) was asking about. It seems to me to be central to the motion.
First, while we have every confidence in the American strategic guarantee, again we have to look at Soviet perceptions. It is possible that, at some time in the future, in circumstances that are very different from those prevailing now, a Soviet leadership might calculate, however mistakenly, that it could risk or threaten a massive nuclear attack on Europe without involving the strategic forces of the United States.
If the Soviets are ever tempted to make such a horrendous miscalculation, the existence of an immensely powerful nuclear force in independent British hands, supporting our conventional forces based in Germany, will be an enormously complicating factor and a powerful argument for Soviet caution.

25
It is for this reason that, in addition to the collective alliance's endorsement of our decision to opt for Trident, several of our European partners—notably the Government of the Federal Republic—have individually made it clear to us that they welcome our intention to maintain a credible strategic deterrent fully committed to NATO.
The second reason for an exclusively British strategic deterrent is that, in the last resort, Great Brtain must be responsible for her own defences. She cannot shuffle them off on another nuclear power. After 30 years with a nuclear capability, if we abandon nuclear weapons on moral grounds, we would deal a devastating blow to NATO—which depends for its collective security on the nuclear deterrent. We would be abrogating all responsibility for our own security which would be protected only by the existence of the United States' nuclear umbrella that we had refused to support. To renounce our own nuclear weapons and then shelter under the American umbrella would have neither moral nor political merit, and it would leave the French, our immediate neighbour, as the only European nuclear power. I notice that in a foreign affairs debate on 5 November 1981, the official then foreign affairs spokesman for the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), said:
"I have often said that strontium 90 does not respect conference resolutions or declarations of neutrality."—[Official Report, 5 November 1981; Vol. 12, c. 136.]
Indeed, strontium 90 would be just as powerful launched or delivered on our French neighbours as on these islands.
Mr. Denzil Davies: The right hon. Gentleman says, if I understand him correctly, that it is important that the Soviet Union should perceive that Britain has its own nuclear weapon if it feels—perhaps wrongly—that the United States will not come to the defence of Europe. If it is so important that the Soviet Union should perceive our independence, I repeat my question: why not say "independent strategic nuclear deterrent".
Mr. Nott: The right hon. Gentleman has asked the same question twice.—[Interruption.] I do not have to answer every question in the opening sentences of my speech. I am coming to that issue. Perhaps I might be allowed to develop my argument. As I said, we would be abrogating all responsibility for our security if we gave up an independent deterrent and were to be protected only by the existence of the United State's nuclear umbrella, which we have refused to support.
Could it be, then, we should choose the renunciation of an independent strategic capability because of cost? Is cost to be the determinant of British independence? Are we to forgo our own defence against nuclear oppression and nuclear blackmail because 3 per cent. of our defence budget is just too much to bear? Of course all my Cabinet colleagues—and my defence advisers—would have liked to find a cheaper way of sustaining a credible strategic capability beyond the 1990s—but none exists, as any incoming Administration would discover, and the most expensive system of them all is one that fails to deter.
There can be no question of delaying any longer a decision on the modernisation of Polaris, with the lead times involved in building a later generation of submarine. By the mid-1990s the Polaris submarines will be noisy—and much easier to detect—and very difficult to maintain in operational order. We did, of course, examine a host of other options, including the submarine-launched
26
cruise missile, but for many reasons we concluded that both on grounds of submarine and missile vulnerability, it had none of the necessary attributes of a credible strategic system.
During the questions following my statement on 11 March, my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) suggested that we were acquiring the weapon of a super power. Perhaps we are, but the threat that we face comes from a super power, our submarines must be capable of surviving against super power technology, and the defences that we have to penetrate are those of a super power. Given probable Soviet anti ballistic missile developments—even within the ABM Treaty—the Polaris missile with the Chevaline warhead is unlikely to be credible beyond the 1990s. I repeat that the most expensive system of them all is the one that fails to deter.
Sir Frederick Burden: Is my right hon. Friend convinced that the new submarines that will carry the Trident weapon will be as silent as the Russian submarines, which are propelled by diesel electric means? If so, surely there is a threat from that source?
Mr. Nott: We have a substantial lead in submarine technology over the Soviet Union. The choice of the new submarines that we made is heavily influenced by the need to keep that 10-year lead in submarine technology, and so we will.
Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: The Secretary of State mentioned the intervention of his right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) in his last statement to the House about acquiring the weaponry of a super power. His right hon. Friend also asked him about the effect of such an acquisition of super weapons on our conventional defence forces. Will he now say a word about that?
Mr. Nott: I shall do so right now.
In the open Government document I published, for the first time, a chart showing defence equipment expenditure up to 1995 on our major roles. No doubt, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) has seen that. Our planned expenditure on the strategic nuclear deterrent, if it were instead to be spread over many conventional capabilities, would not represent more than a marginal increment in those conventional forces which will anyhow obtain 97 per cent. of defence expenditure over that period—and more, if there is growth in the defence budget after 1985–86.
Of course, I and all my defence advisers would like more frigates. As Secretary of State for Defence, I should like more tanks and aircraft. However, all of us, including the Chiefs of Staff, are unanimous in the view that a strategic nuclear capability takes precedence over an increase in such forces. Even a massive conventional force has no ultimate value in a nuclear environment unless the possessor of those conventional forces can resist strategic nuclear blackmail by the other side.
Mr. Robert C. Brown: It seems to me that in the last five minutes the Secretary of State has been peddling the most dangerous mythology that we can defend this country in isolation. Surely collective defence within the NATO alliance is the only way in which we can defend ourselves? It is a dangerous mythology that he puts about to say that we can defend ourselves in isolation.
Mr. Nott: I made it clear earlier that all our NATO allies, all 13 countries in NATO of every political persuasion, fully support our decision to maintain a strategic nuclear capability. It is part of the collective defence of freedom. The NATO Nuclear Planning Group said in its communiqué that it regarded a strategic capability as vital. If there is a myth here, I can only say that the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, West (Mr. Brown), both as a Back Bencher and as a Minister, has supported that myth for many years.
Mr. Keith Speed: Will my right hon. Friend answer this riddle, which is worrying many people: how can we apparently afford £8, 000 million to meet a threat in 13 years' time, which may possibly be true, when we cannot afford £3 million to keep HMS "Endurance" on patrol to meet a threat that is facing us today?
Mr. Nott: I do not intend to get involved in a debate about the Falkland Islands now. These issues are too important to be diverted into a discussion on HMS "Endurance". In any event, as my hon. Friend knows, expenditure on Trident will be extremely small in the next few years.
The arguments in favour of our retaining an independence nuclear deterent rest, of course, upon the force being truly independent. Independence means control. Although it has been stated many times before, I repeat again to the House that the Polaris force now, as with the Trident force in the 1990s, is entirely under the control of the British Prime Minister; the release of any nuclear weapon would be wholly within the power of Her Majesty's Government—and the Soviet leadership knows it to be so.
We are in no way dependent upon the United States for communications, targeting, or any other matter relating to the day-to-day operations of the force. It is unquestionably an independent force. We cetainly have the technical ability to build a successor missile of our own, as indeed the French have done. We chose not to do so purely on the ground of cost. A sudden withdrawal of support facilities could, after a year or two, begin to have an effect on the servicing of the Trident missile, although the D5 missile will have a much longer in-tube life that the Polaris missile. We would, therefore, have the time to provide our own replacement facilities, albeit at considerable cost.
Mr. Julian Critchley: Is it not a fact that if the Americans withdrew support facilities for the Polaris fleet it would remain operational for nine months, and if they withdrew support facilities for the Trident fleet it would remain operational for 24 months?
Mr. Nott: That is not the case. My hon. Friend is referring to the stocks of spares that we carry at any given time. If arrangements with the United States are severed—I see no prospect of the United States breaking an agreement between our two countries—it is true that after a year or two we would have to provide components from our own productive resources. We could do that, but it would be costly.
Mr. Gavin Strang: The central reason why Trident II (D5) represents such a massive escalation of the nuclear arms race is that it is designed to destroy Soviet missiles in hardened silos. It is a counterforce weapon and, therefore, a first strike weapon. That is a massive escalation over Trident I (C4). Will the Minister face that issue?
Mr. Nott: Of course, it is embodied in the Opposition amendment and I shall refer to that point.
The amendment accuses the Government, among other things, of escalating the arms race—the point made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang)—and of showing contempt for the INF negotiations in Geneva and the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament. These are fine-sounding phrases, but hardly borne out by the facts.
Taking first the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister hopes to attend this, just as the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) did in 1978 while his Government were continuing the Chevaline programme in secret. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will reaffirm our commitment to realistic, balanced and verifiable measures of nuclear disarmament—including a comprehensive test ban treaty, which we support. These will be achieved not by emotional gestures or political posturing and propaganda, but by painstaking detailed negotiations. What the United Nations special session will provide is a powerful and important stimulus to these endeavours in which we intend to play a full role.
I deal next with the Geneva talks. The right hon. Gentleman and his friends seem determined to drag the British Trident force into the INF negotiations in Geneva—almost as determined as the Labour Government to keep Polaris out of the SALT II negotiations, on the quite reasonable ground that it represented a minimum deterrent force which could not be reduced.
Trident is, of course, a strategic sea-based force like Polaris—even the Russians recognised that in arguing for the inclusion of Polaris in SALT while the Labour Government were determined to keep if out of SALT. The Geneva negotiations are concerned with land-based intermediate-range forces. All our allies understand this, but I have not succeeded in getting the message through to the Opposition.
Indeed, so far as the arms race is concerned, the four-boat Trident force will be capable of carrying the same number of missiles as presently deployed on our Polaris force. I shall come to warheads in a moment. This number of missiles—a maximum of 64—represents a very small fraction—about 3 to 4 per cent.—of the predicted Soviet and United States delivery systems. This is about the same proportion represented by Polaris when it first came into service.
Of course, Trident has the capability to carry many more warheads than Polaris, but on the same basis of comparison the proportion will actually be lower than when Polaris came into service in the 1960s—at that time no anti-ballistic missile defences existed—and is one of the decisive factors in determining the size of a minimum dererrent.
Finally, the amendment refers to the "intolerable burden" that Trident is supposed to place on the British economy. The United Kingdom Trident programme will provide £4 billion of extra work for British industry. I believe that work for British industry that is in the furtherance of the defence of this country is good work.
Whilst in the United States last week, I discussed detailed arrangements for the participation of British industry in the American Trident programme. I was impressed by the United States' Secretary of Defence's determination to move ahead as fast as possible with his undertaking, not least to waive the buy American

29
provisions to clear the legal obstacles from the path. An American team will visit this country next month to brief British firms on the range of possible products for which they will be able to compete, and to explain American procurement procedures to them.
Thereafter, Mr. Weinberger is willing to designate American officials in both this coutry and the United States to maintain and develop these liaison arrangements. The American Department of Defence also intends to initiate discussions on these new arrangements with the American prime contractors, among them Lockheed, and the Pentagon will be arranging meetings between these American companies and interested British firms.
The production programme for the D5 missile system is not, of course, decided and it is simply not yet possible to quantify the size of the opportunities that will be open to British firms. In some subcontracting areas it will be up to 80 per cent. of all components and in others 10 per cent. or less. Undoubtedly the competition will be fierce, but with continuing support of the Department of Defence I do not doubt that the opportunity exists for very substantial business. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement, who will wind up the debate, will follow this up further in a visit to the United States. Contracts obtained for the American Trident programme, and for ours, will last for several decades over the lifetime of the system.
We have had peace in Europe for half a lifetime now, despite deeply opposed political systems, massive forces in close proximity and a succession of potentially inflammatory situations, which in any other age would have been highly likely to lead to war. In an East-West setting deterrence plainly works and Great Britain has a distinctive role to play in it—one that our allies welcome.
It would be dangerous folly, in the world as it is now, to abandon that role. Much the best long-term way to sustain it at the strategic level is to build a new force around the Trident missile. That is, in absolute terms, not a cheap course, but the consequences of shirking it might one day prove unimaginably expensive.
To recognise the success of deterrence is not to accept that it is the last word in ensuring freedom from war. Any readiness by one nation to use nuclear weapons against another, even in self-defence, is terrible. No one, especially from within the ethical traditions of the free world with its special respect for individual life, can acquiesce comfortably in it as the basis of international peace for the rest of time.
We have to seek unremittingly, through arms control and otherwise, for better ways of ordering the world. But the search may be a long one, no safer system than deterrence is yet in view, and impatience or emotion would be a catastrophic guide. To tear down the present structure, imperfect but effective, before a better one is firmly within our grasp would be an immensely dangerous and irresponsible act.
4.10 pm
Mr. John Silkin: I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"condemns the decision to purchase the Trident nuclear system, a decision which escalates the arms race, breaks the spirit of the Treaty on Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, shows complete contempt for the negotiations currently taking place in Geneva and for the United Nations Second Special Session on Disarmament, damages the United Kingdom's conventional
30
defences, places an intolerable burden on the British economy and reduces the United Kingdom's power to pursue an independent foreign policy."
The amendment gives the reasons why Labour will cancel the Trident project. We reject the Government's policy. The policy will not keep Britain safe 20 or 30 years from now, as the Secretary of State claims. The Secretary of State thinks of it as an insurance policy. He may have satisfied himself that when he looks into the mirror a little insurance broker looks out. He may find reassurance in the notion of Trident as an insurance policy against a Russian attack, but he has overlooked the uncomfortable facts. Insurance policies do not prevent disasters or accidents. They never really compensate for the loss suffered. They regularly create an entirely false sense of security., and they are not worth much in time of war.
The Secretary of State tried to deal with our criticism that he is escalating the arms race. I say that he "tried" to deal with it because he did not succeed. He appeared not to understand why the possession of Trident escalates the arms race. Trident does not make anybody in Britain feel secure. It is yet another manifestation that convinces more and more people that we no longer control nuclear weapons, but that they control us. What we are getting is designed not to prevent war—the original reason given for Polaris—but to fight war.
Deterrence was the hub of the Secretary of Slate's argument. Nuclear deterrence, if it exists, is about mutually assured destruction. Nuclear deterrence implies the ability to retaliate to a first strike, so that both sides are equally in danger of destruction. But is not Trident's unique quality that it is accurate enough to destroy Soviet inter-continental ballistic missiles in their silos? What sort of deterrent is it in that context?
Let us consider what Trident is and how it relates to Polaris. Trident multiplies Britain's strategic nuclear warhead capacity to about 20 times its original Polaris level.
Mr. Cranley Onslow: Has nobody ever told the right hon. Gentleman that the Russians have submarine strategic capability?
Mr. Silkin: We are dealing with the United Kingdom. We can deal with the question of the United States and the Soviet Union, the two super powers, but the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) made the important point on 11 March when the statement was made that Great Britain is adopting a super power's weapons when it is not a super power.
The Secretary of State said that it was not his intention to multiply Britain's nuclear warhead capacity to anything like 20 times the original Polaris level. Will he consider the problem from the point of view of an adversary? He talked about a game of chess. In a sense, I accept that that is what it is. One has to look not only at one's own motives but at the chess board and one's adversary's motives and work out what one's adversary might think. An adversary would not measure the Secretary of State's intentions for many reasons. For instance, the Secretary of State will not be Secretary of State for all time, but will be succeeded by somebody else. Such an adversary would measure the capacity.
It is almost as if the United Kingdom were playing "last across" with the Soviet Union. That is why the danger of escalation is so real. As the Secretary of State fairly said, not only members of the Labour Party, pacifists and

31
unilateralists, but people throughout the country are protesting. They are terrified out of their wits at what is happening.
Nuclear warfare has repealed the law of safety in numbers. More warheads do not magnify the chances of peace; they multiply the odds on war. That is what the people have seen. That is why they recognise the importance of the Geneva talks. They seek a reduction, not just a limit, in nuclear weapons and a reduction in the tension, which has grown so much in the last 12 to 24 months.
People regard the Geneva talks as the only possible means of stopping the nuclear madness. I think that the Secretary of State hinted that he felt the same. For 25 years the people of Britain were told that we were at the top table and that our possession of nuclear weapons stopped us from going naked into the conference chamber. Now the people see that we are not even in the conference chamber, naked or fully clothed. They wonder why.
In the past, Governments of both parties played a part in negotiating the test ban and the non-proliferation treaties. Now the Government say that we never intended to go to Geneva and that we intend leaving it to the two super powers. The Secretary of State said that that happened before his Government came to power. He identified that with his Government's attitude in a different context—in the context of Trident.
Our possession of strategic weapons is supposed to influence the top table negotiations. The Government are committed to maintaining a strategic nuclear force at an irreducible minimum level. If that is so, the Government cannot contribute to a strategic disarmament agreement without disqualifying themselves from the strategic weapons club. That is why the British Government are absent from the Geneva talks and that is why the Government prefer negotiations between the two super powers to be kept exclusively on a bilateral basis.
Mr. Nott: Geneva is not about strategic weapons. I keep making the point that it is not.
Mr. Silkin: Geneva is about theatre weapons. Geneva should lead to strategic weapons. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that when we go on to START the British Government will be represented at the tripartite negotiations?
Mr. Nott: No more than the right hon. Gentleman's Government were represented at SALT. SALT and START are bilateral negotiations between the two major powers. It is not true to suggest that we have not played a major part in agreeing the zero option in following the course of negotiations in Geneva and influencing those negotiations.
Mr. Silkin: The Secretary of State is making the worst of a bad case. He is telling the House that the Government have not the slightest intention of being present at any negotiations on strategic weapons. We already knew that. We also needed to have it confirmed in the House so that the public could be made aware of it.
In addition to that fear, it is the wish of many that we be represented as a major party at the Geneva talks. After all, as the right hon. Gentleman said, we were signatories to the test ban treaty and were one of the three original
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signatories to the non-proliferation treaty. Therefore, we have a right to be represented, especially as we are a super-nuclear power.
There is another reason why the public are fearful. There is this year the second special session on disarmament at the United Nations. I am pleased that the Prime Minister has at last agreed to go to the plenary session. She said that she would attend "at some point", but when I wrote to her about it she would not identify the point. If the world is to recognise that the British Government are as serious about disarmament as the British people would like them to be, it is not enough for the Prime Minister to say, as she did at Harrogate:
"Of course I would like to see nuclear disarmament."
She should be at the session right at the beginning.
The Opposition amendment mentions the nonproliferation treaty. [HON. MEMBERS "And everything else."] Yes, it mentions everything because the Opposition are trying to articulate all the fears of the British public. That is much better than talking about the cost of Trident in terms of chocolate bars, as a member of the Government did the other day.
The non-proliferation treaty represented a self-denying ordinance by non-nuclear powers in return for undertakings by the three major nuclear powers of the day to negotiate an end to the nuclear arms race and to bring about nuclear disarmament. Article 1 of that treaty made the position clear. It said:
"Each nuclear weapon state undertakes not to transfer to any recipient whatsoever nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices".
In other words, the transfer and acceptance of nuclear weapons and other nuclear explosive devices is contrary to the spirit of the treaty. It may also be contrary to the letter in certain cases. The transfer of Trident from one of those nuclear powers to another State, whether or not that State was one of the original signatories, is contrary to the spirit of article 1 and, I maintain, of article 6.
Mr. Nott: The non-proliferation treaty refers to nuclear warheads. We manufacture the warheads. There is no transfer of nuclear warheads as they are manufactured at Aldermaston.
Mr. Silkin: If the non-proliferation treaty were solely about warheads, it would be extremely limited. The right hon. Gentleman should re-read article 6. He can do that for himself, quite simply. The whole basis of the treaty is that it is imperative to stop the nuclear arms race. It is how warheads are delivered, not their possession, that is crucial. Trident is a powerful and deadly method of delivering nuclear warheads on a hitherto unknown scale.
Mr. Ioan Evans: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the logic of the Secretary of State's argument is that to maintain our independence we must possess an independent nuclear deterrent? Does he also agree that that argument could be used by every country which does not possess nuclear weapons, and that it is against the spirit of the non-proliferation treaty?
Mr. Silkin: That is exactly the reason. It is so stated. That is why the non-proliferation treaty came into existence.
Sir Frederick Burden: I am confused about Labour Party policy. The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) knows my views about keeping up a strong conventional force. However, I find it especially difficult

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to understand how, after supporting Polaris for so many years because of its effectiveness and the need for a nuclear deterrent, the Opposition suddenly now say that we apparently need none at all.
Mr. Silkin: The country was always strongly divided on the issue of nuclear weapons, but Trident is so completely different, difficult, dangerous and deadly as to be a different matter in both quality and quantity. Many Labour Members were against the Polaris missile system. although some were in favour of it, but the Labour Party is unanimously against Trident. If any hon. Gentleman can find such unanimity on the Government side, I for one would be intensely surprised.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. Evans) mentioned independence. It also appears in the Opposition amendment. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) said, it does not figure in the Government motion. No doubt that was an oversight and a head may roll as a result. I assume that the word "independent" was intended to be included but that the Government motion was merely badly phrased.
I believe in friendship with the United States—I always have. However, friendship rests on a relationship between equals, not between master and servant. The Secretary of State has presented the purchase of the Trident system to the British people as perpetuating an independent strategic force. He tells us that we need it—this is the interesting way in which he advanced his argument today—because America might one day drift away from us, or might seem to be drifting away from us. Are we really expected to believe that the Americans would let us have Trident if they thought that we would use it as we pleased, rather than as they pleased? If the Secretary of State believes that, I am interested to hear it. I am reminded of the Duke of Wellington, who, when accosted by a gentleman with the words:
"Mr. Jones, I believe?",
replied
"If you believe that, you will believe anything."
We are completely dependent on the United States—I challenge any hon. Member to dispute this—for missile technology, launch and guidance systems, satellite intelligence and test facilities in Nevada and Cape Canaveral. We do not have to risk a nuclear Suez to show that independence is an illusion. The Americans would never have let us take Trident unless they were completely satisfied that we would never use it in any other way than as they tell us to use it.
Once, the situation was different. Britain had a special relationship with the United States. British Prime Ministers gave cautionary advice and exerted a restraining influence on United States Presidents—both Sir Winston Churchill and Clement Attlee did that—but nuclear dependence means the end of independence in the Trident age.
Dr. Alan Glyn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the United States has already said that it is keen that we should have an independent nuclear deterrent? Is he aware that that is set out in the exchanges between my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and President Reagan?
Mr. Silkin: That might be a reason why the word "independent" did not appear in the motion. It depends, as they say, on what is meant by "independence". If the
34
United States thought that we would use Trident this week, anywhere—in the South Atlantic, for example—in a way which might involve the United States, would we be allowed to use it? Of course we should not.
Mr. Nott: Why does the right hon. Gentleman not consult his colleagues who are former Prime Ministers? They would tell him that the deterrent is independent.
Mr. Silkin: My former colleagues never had to deal with Trident. In future, when Britain speaks on world affairs we shall increasingly hear the unchallenged voice of America. The process is now well under way. The Government do not merely echo the bellicose rhetoric of the White House. They amplify it. They cannot criticise the United States President's Latin American policy. They dare not say that he is wrong.
Trident is not Britain's ticket to peace and freedom; it is the badge of our servitude. The sacrifice of our ability to pursue our own foreign policy is but one of the many casualties of Trident. The United Kingdom's economy will be weakened by scarce resources being diverted away from manufacturing industry.
The Secretary of State was at his most unconvincing when he talked about the jobs that he hoped might come to the United Kingdom—10 per cent. here, 80 per cent. there. We have heard those promises before, but they have not materialised.
Far worse even than that is the effect on conventional defences. The recent cuts in RAF flying hours, the closure of dockyards and other naval support facilities, the latest of which were announced last week, and, with the current dangers in the Falkland Islands, major cuts in the surface fleet are all but first instalments in the long-term programme of cuts in our conventional forces that Trident will necessitate. Indeed, it has been said that within five years the Royal Navy will be unable to fight a war at sea of any duration or even to fulfil its peace-time commitments.
The Secretary of State is pleasing one person—Admiral Gorshkov—as in its peak years Trident will absorb nearly 30 per cent. of the naval budget. The Secretary of State shakes his head. Perhaps he would like to intervene again.
Mr. Nott: When the Labour Government left office the naval target heading was £3, 459 million at constant prices. In 1985–86 it will be considerably greater than that. The amount devoted to the naval target heading, without Trident, will be much greater in 1985–86 than it was when the Labour Government left office, so what is the right hon. Gentleman talking about?
Mr. Silkin: As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, when the maximum payment years come, his figures will be as irrelevant as chocolate bars. We are talking about the peak years, in which Trident will absorb 20 per cent. of new equipment costs. Does the right hon. Gentleman dispute that?
Mr. Nott: Yes, I do. The figure that I gave was 10½ per cent.
Mr. Silkin: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned only "equipment". I am talking about new equipment. My figure of 20 per cent. is right. He had better go and look again. If the Secretary of State wishes to talk about costs, let him remind the House of the actual cost of Tornado compared with the original estimates and then explain to

35
us why Trident should be immune from the disease of defence inflation. Of course the cost will rise, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it.
Major wars have changed in technique and technology. The dangers have changed. But major wars cannot change geography. As always, we have to tailor our defence to the rules of geography and to our economic resources. We can no longer afford to make the all-round balanced contribution to NATO that makes us unique in Europe and indeed in NATO and explains our disproportionately high defence spending. The time has come to face military and economic reality.
On 24 January 1980, the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, now the Leader of the House, who is not unnoted for his wise words to us from time to time, said:
"I am very clear that it would be gravely harmful if sustaining our nuclear contribution to the alliance meant emasculating our non-nuclear contribution. That would amount to lowering the nuclear threshold."—[Official Report, 24 January 1980; Vol. 977, c. 684.]
That is precisely what is happening. Trident does exactly that.
The structure of our defence policy must change. The emphasis on our contribution to NATO in the 1980s must come down far more to our naval and air force efforts. We do not discount BAOR, but defending Britain's air defence region in the air and, at sea, defending the sea lanes of the Atlantic, the English Channel and the North Sea are the spheres in which we are most needed and at our best.
Mr. Bill Walker: If air defence is so important, I am at a loss to understand why the outgoing Labour Administration left the Air Force more than 200 fast jet pilots short.
Mr. Silkin: The hon. Gentleman will have to learn that we are considering how best to defend our nation and where its future lies. He must realise that for all parties in the House this is a moment of truth. We must all consider where we are going. The Tories intend to press on with Trident. The Liberals and Social Democrats in the country rejected nuclear weapons, although they have yet to receive a clear statement from their leaders, whose attitude to matters of vital importance seems always to be dictated by the apparent advantages in the constituency in which they happen to be speaking.
Mr. Frank Allaun: They supported cruise.
Mr. Silkin: The Labour Party is unanimously opposed to Trident. Labour will cancel it outright and finally abandon the pretence that the path to peace lies in preparing for nuclear war.
4.35 pm
Sir Hugh Fraser: As Opposition Members have been kind enough to refer to some of my remarks, I should at once declare that the case against Trident advanced by the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) is one of the most complicated and knowingly absurd that I have ever heard. I must confess that I cannot support the Government on Trident, for three reasons, which I believe are more practical and relevant to reality than the rather vague arguments advanced by the right hon. Gentleman, especially when, in pursuit of greater
36
rhetoric, he said that only equals can be friends. One can understand why the right hon. Gentleman sometimes feels somewhat isolated.
I maintain that we are purchasing the wrong weapon from the wrong firm at the wrong time. Of course, I agree with much of what was said by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and will undoubtedly be said by others about the size of the global missile crisis. It is a crisis of colossal and absurd superfluity of nuclear weapons. Broadly, it is that crisis to which my right hon. Friend referred in his admirable speech. There are now some 50, 000 warheads in the world—equivalent to perhaps 10 million times the force of the Hiroshima explosion. The basic problem is how to achieve disarmament, not on a unilateral basis as the Labour Party wishes, but, as Lord Zuckerman and the late Lord Mountbatten pointed out time and again, to make progress in arms reduction by negotiation from strength and the application of reason to that process.
Looking at the world situation, I believe that reason must eventually seep through. Existing nuclear weapons, be they tactical, theatre or intercontinental, once used, cease to be effective weapons of war. War, as a mode of action, has rational objectives. Once used, such weapons become meaningless instruments of world destruction in which neither policy nor even war can be pursued. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend has seen the recent statement by Admiral Rickover—who was the father and mother of the American naval nuclear enterprise—to the effect that within 48 hours of a major nuclear exchange the United States Navy nuclear fleet would cease to exist as an effective military force. It would be without bases, without refurbishment, without targeting and probably without central control. That is why I believe that the statesmen and chiefs of staff of this world must eventually realise that in the creation and building up of nuclear weapons, whether they be tactical, strategic or theatre nuclear weapons they are embarked upon a policy that ceases to be warlike and becomes mere folly.
That is why I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be attending the world disarmament conference in New York. All plans of nuclear arms control, whether the Baruch plan, the Acheson plan or the Lilienthal plan, have been stymied by one power—the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, one can only hope that reason will one day prevail, and that the present nuclear absurdity will be brought under some sort of control. At the moment, of course, that day is not here.
We are faced with immediate problems. That is why I cannot possibly support some of the things that have been said and that are about to be said by the Opposition and by those who oppose the Government. Today, I note that we are celebrating 25 years of the EEC—an institution that has its problems. But if one looks further afield one sees that the problems of NATO are even graver than those of the EEC. Therefore, when discussing the issue, some reference must be made to the NATO position.
As we all know, NATO is a unilateral American guarantee of European security, under which it was believed that Europe, under the shadow or with the help of the American nuclear umbrella, would achieve two things—political unity and effective European self-defence. After 33 years, neither of those two things has happened. That must be accepted as a fact, because a fact it is.
Theodore Draper wrote in Encounter recently:

37
"For 33 years Europeans have benefited from the American strategic deterrent without paying for it or controlling it."
A new crisis for NATO is developing on the questions of payment and control. That is why NATO has never been in a more disturbed state and why there has never been a greated threat to the stability of the organisation. Dr. Kissinger wrote when considering the dilemma from the American point of view:
"The dilemma of tactical nuclear weapons for our allies is that they wish to commit the USA to the early use of strategic nuclear weapons."
At the other end of the scale I quote what President Mitterrand said in his book "Ici et Maintenant" which was published in 1980, a few months before his election:
"I am no more attached to the Atlantic Alliance than a Romanian or a Pole to the Warsaw Pact."
That is the problem which faces the West today—a growing mistrust between Europe and the United States. In that context, America is not so much the isolationist as the isolated. Therefore, I believe that NATO is perhaps moving into its most dangerous period.
In defence, timing is of the essence and for the next four or five years the window for Russian aggression against the West could not be wider. At this stage, what is needed above all else is the reinforcement of our conventional arms. That is the key.
I turn to the gap in Britain's defence. About 20 years ago I was Secretary of State for Air and so I know a little about the subject, though not as much as my hon. Friends, who are better informed than I. In an article in The Times today Mr. Stanhope points out that the RAF's front line today has 80 aircraft fewer than was planned for three years ago. That was largely the fault of the Labour Government.
I turn to the question of naval defence. That is not just a matter of a lonely HMS "Endurance" in the Antarctic surrounded by Argentinian warships, which were doubtless sold to that country by us, but the cancellations that will take place over the next two years, with about 15 ships going out of commission.
I maintain that at the moment our nuclear contribution of Polaris to NATO is perfectly adequate. To disturb the balance further by a new nuclear investment beginning now could be fatally dangerous.
Mr. Duffy: Before the right hon. Gentleman moves on from the ships that have been reduced in numbers, to which he referred, is he suggesting that that is not Trident-related and that there is not an element of Trident displacement in that reduction in surface ships?
Sir Hugh Fraser: Of course there is. Anyone who has anything to do with defence matters knows that forward planning—even the expenses six, seven or eight years ahead—has an effect on immediate programmes. It always has and it always will.
Next I turn to the Trident system itself. There is no question but that Trident as a theoretical system—it will not be operational in the United States until 1986—is the best known. But in this case, I believe that the best is the enemy of the good. One of the essential differences between the Polaris and the Trident is that Polaris is an area weapon—a weapon or deterrent that threatens cities and industrial complexes—while Trident is an infinitely more sophisticated counter-force strike weapon of immense accuracy, designed specifically to pinpoint military targets, missile sites or command posts. Even if
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I believe this concept to be total nonsense, it can be said by "nuclearologists" that Trident has a nuclear war fighting capacity as well as simple deterrent capability.
Those who back the Trident system have not thought out its full classical nuclear implications. The implications are vast and put Britain even more in the front line and open a whole new dimension of danger regarding civil defence, nuclear anti-ballistic missile systems and crisis management considerations that have not been fully considered.
The Government have said that the weapon will strengthen the West by creating what is stated to be another centre of nuclear decision that would baffle the Soviets and make them even more careful of launching aggression.
Sir Nicholas Bonsor: I got the impression that in the admirable early part of his speech my right hon. Friend was talking of the threat of withdrawal of European support for America. He now appears to be arguing that the American—European alliance could be relied upon for the next 30–40 years. Does he agree that the logic of his earlier comments point to the need for an independent European command centre that could take the very decisions about which he expresses doubt?
Sir Hugh. Fraser: My hon. Friend, a distinguished baronet and colleague, is on my side, as he will see in a moment. I suggest that, as long as NATO exists, the idea of an alternative centre of nuclear decision is meaningless, If I, or the noble baronet, were the United States Commander-in-Chief and I thought for one second that the United Kingdom was even considering the independent use of an American D5 missile against Moscow without American agreement I would immediately re-target all my rockets on London.
So much for the argument about an alternative centre of decision within NATO. Either NATO exists under American nuclear command or it ceases to exist. That is the hideous fact and it is time that this country and the Western world accepted it.
By purchasing Trident we are not primarily adding to our independent status. We are adding four boats to the already colossal striking power of the United States nuclear submarine fleet. We may be boosting our ego, but we are also doing a good service to the American taxpayer.
I would not be opposed to such generosity—after all, the Americans are a most generous people who have defended Europe for a generation—if such a gesture had outstanding mutual advantages. But there is a danger of NATO running into immeasurable and fairly immediate trouble—I hope that here I shall regain the support and encouragement of my hon. Friend the Member for Nantwich (Sir N. Bonsor)—unless some of the problems of which I have spoken can be resolved. The danger is that we may enter a period of unlimited nuclear blackmail and innumerable political and military permutations.
Unlike some right hon. and hon. Members, I believe that the chief value of a nuclear weapon system for this country lies in its benefit to national independence. I think that my record is a good as anyone's in that regard. As a temporary member of the Cabinet, representing the Ministry of Defence, I, along with my right hon. Friends the Members for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) and Sidcup (Mr. Heath), insisted on 21 December 1962 that independence should be written into the Polaris agreement. I believe that it was because of our insistence that clause 9 was included in the treaty.

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Looking ahead, I see a period when supreme national interest—national survival—may be the issue at stake. It is essential that there should be a deterrent of sufficient weight and size to preserve the safety of this country.
Viscount Cranborne: I am sure that my right hon. Friend knows a great deal more about the matter than I do, but I was under the happy impression that the agreement under which Trident was being purchased from the United States was almost identical to the agreement under which Polaris was purchased.
Sir Hugh Fraser: I am coming to that point. I can see circumstances over the next decade in which an American Government might quite properly find it inappropriate to leave the D5 weapons system in British hands. We have seen that before with the McGovern Act; it is not inconceiveable.
Therefore, I believe that a system other than Trident must be our target for an independent system in the 1990s. Many suggestions have been made, including cruise and other systems, but I remain of the view that the Polaris fleet and its refurbishment—even, if necessary, the addition of a fifth boat—would be not only adequate for our defence purposes, but cheaper than the proposed system.
The Polaris fleet is an area weapons system only. It can deliver 200 warheads equivalent to 3, 000 times the power of the Hiroshima bomb. To say that it is not a deterrent—even if it cannot be aimed at Moscow because of Russia's ABM resources—is nonsense. I maintain that it is adequate for our defence.
Whatever some experts may say, I still think that there is no reason to believe that, even on the most conservative forecasts of the hull life of a submarine, the physical replacement need begin before 1993. In other words, the replacement programme need not start until 1987. The oldest submarine, "Resolution", was commissioned in 1967and the latest, "Revenge", was commissioned in 1969.
I also believe that it would be possible to arrange for the rocket motors for the boats to be built here without offending American sensibilities. Solid fuel could be used, as it is in many of the Russian rockets, which are not without effect. If the worst came to the worst, Chinese copies could be made. That would not be possible with the Trident missile.
At this stage, with the problems of maintaining our forces and the dangers of cutting back on our conventional forces being so obvious—we must remember that conventional arms are most likely to keep the Americans in Europe—the building of an expensive super power weapon should be reconsidered and the Secretary of State should agree to take his logical, but falsely based, thinking back to the drawing board.
4.58 pm
Dr. David Owen: The Social Democratic Party and the Liberal Party tabled an amendment which was not selected and I shall seek to explain why we do not approve of the Government's decision to purchase the Trident missile. However, we think it necessary to make it clear that we fully support the United Kingdom's continued membership of NATO and fully accept that that membership carries two
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commitments—a commitment to detente through disarmament and negotiations on arms control, and a commitment to defence, involving both conventional defences and nuclear deterrence.
It is essential to say that while the build-up of arms continues, and particularly while the Soviet Union is intent on matching the nuclear armaments of the United States at every level, it would be incredible and dangerous for NATO to abandon the concept of nuclear deterrence. There can be no non-nuclear deterrent strategy for NATO. That is why we cannot support the Opposition amendment. It would be impossible to believe that, having listened to the Opposition spokesman. Of course, the amendment's wording was carefully phrased so that the various views inside the Labour Party could be accommodated in the Division Lobby.
Both the parties I speak for—I carefully consulted the Leader of the Liberal Party—recognise that while the Soviet Union has nuclear weapons NATO must have them, too. Pending all-round nuclear disarmament, both parties acknowledge the need for the NATO strategic deterrent, of which our Polaris submarines form part. Both parties agree that, for as long as the Polaris fleet provides a useful part of a NATO deterrent, it should continue to fulfil that role. Moreover, both parties agree that the decision on whether to replace it need not be taken now. The right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) spoke eloquently on this essential point and I shall concentrate on it.
The Government were right to take the decision to spend an extra £300 million—a lot of money—on re-motoring Polaris missile motors. That decision was correctly taken and will ensure that Polaris missile life continues to the end of this century. The hull life question was resolved some years ago and Polaris can be retained until the end of this century.
Mr. Stanley Newens rose——
Dr. Owen: I will not give way. I have dealt with the view of both parties in a careful and definite statement.
Mr. Newens rose——
Dr. Owen: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman because time is short.
On the Polaris extension, the only aspect that had credibility was the Secretary of State's constant reference to the fact that the motors were becoming noisier. There is no doubt that there is an increased possibility of detection. Only a fool would deny that, and it is a small argument against the potential of giving, at the very least, four to five years in which more careful thought could be given to whether Polaris should be extended by the introduction of a new deterrent system.
The right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone was right to emphasise that the decision to go for the D5 Trident was a major step forward—beyond the extent of the Polaris commitment. That is a different type of weapons system and is capable of taking out hardened missile targets. Its accuracy, increased megatonnage and greater numbers of missiles, all represent a significant escalation in the nuclear arms race. I urge the Government to rethink their position. At this time, more than any other, there is the potential for a major move forward in the whole subject of arms control and disarmament.
Mr. Tony Marlow: Tell the Russians.
Dr. Owen: I do not need to tell the Russians. I have just taken up the Secretary of State's kind offer to be briefed on these matters. I am the first to admit that, since I left office two and a half years ago, there has again been an escalation in Soviet military might. No one can try, or pretend, to foresee the future. If the circumstances had changed significantly, in a way that I do not feel they have, I would be prepared to rethink my position. No responsible Government would put the future of Britain's defence in jeopardy merely because of previous commitments.
There are at least five years in which a British Government can pursue arms control and disarmament. They need not make this decision and commitment now. It will be extremely expensive for our conventional defence capability. Day after day, we are beginning to see what the price is. We were promised a strategic reassessment of the Navy's role, and a decision to move out of the "big ship Navy", which I supported. We were asked to believe that there was the possibility of an increase in the submarine build rate and the effectiveness of submarine forces. We are now seeing that those promises have not been delivered. There has been no improvement in submarine forces and a major reduction in the conventional surface fleet Navy. We can observe pressures in many other parts of the defence budget, which has only just begun. On arms control——
Mr. Julian Amery: The Secretary of State for Defence is well known, from his background, as a strong defender of the public purse. The Treasury is about the toughest guardian of the public purse. If it has accepted that this is the most competent means of maintaining the deterrent, are we sure that any other solution is less expensive? Did the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) notice that Lord Carver, the most eloquent opponent of the independent deterrent, said that if we were to go ahead with it, Trident was the best?
Dr. Owen: I have never denied, if one were comparing intercontinental strategic ballistic missile systems, that Trident is undoubtedly the best system. I have never made any secret of that. I am glad that the United States has the Trident system. The Americans need the Trident system to match the Soviet submarine-launched intercontinental ballistic missiles.
The question for the House is whether Britain, in the present economic and industrially straitened circumstances—when we make only a contribution to the NATO deterrent—needs to purchase the Trident missile system. I am not sure how much the Treasury accepted this question. That will be revealed by history. This commitment was entered into by the Prime Minister, and it is one on which she is unshakable and inflexible, as she is on so many of her commitments. There has not been totally rational debate on this issue within Government. My position on Trident has been consistent and logical from the moment that I was Foreign Secretary and I hold it to this day.
It is necessary to use this five years for arms control. There are now three major forums of arms control. First, it is most important to do something about the risk of limited nuclear war in Europe; the whole concept of limited battlefield nuclear war. I urge the Government to get an agreement this year in the mutual and balanced force reduction talks in Geneva on a first phase reduction
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to get a conventional balance. They must also introduce into those negotiations the concept of a battlefield nuclear weapon-free zone. That must be at least 100 kilometres on either side, east and west, of the border. No nuclear or chemical weapons would be deployed there and it would not be possible to exercise or deploy nuclear protection material and clothing, or protection material against chemical weapons, which are much the same things.
Secondly, I urge the Government to use their influence in the United States to fulfil the reality of the NATO decision in 1979. That saw a linkage between strategic arms limitation talks and the intermediate missile talks. The Geneva talks on intermediate missiles must be linked with the strategic arms reduction talks. The sooner those talks commence the better. It is vital that President Reagan, having surprised many people by coming forward with a much more imaginative proposal than most of us would have dared to believe a year ago on the zero option over cruise missiles and SS20s, is persuaded to put on the table, for the commencement of strategic arms reduction talks, deep cuts in strategic arms. That proposition was first put forward by President Carter in 1977 and rejected then by the Soviet Union as being an interference with the Vladivostok negotiations conducted by his predecessor.
More progress would be made on strategic arms in the present climate by going for deep cuts and if there were some sign that President Reagan was ready to take that step. It would be significant if he did so. Furthermore, suspect that it would be difficult in those talks to get a complete zero sum, although I wish that were possible. If it is impossible, an option is for the Americans to deploy cruise missiles at sea rather than land-basing them. That would have a major effect in reducing the political controversy over cruise missiles in the European theatre.
The third and most essential negotiation that must be progressed is the ABM treaty. It would be a tragedy if the treaty were not renewed.
The fourth essential negotiation is a comprehensive test ban. The Government's decision to go for Trident will make them somewhat less enthusiastic about a complete comprehensive test ban—no tests whatever. The Secretary of State shakes his head. I know that he is concerned about the issue. I hope that he has overridden the shelf-life argument and will exercise British influence within the tripartite discussions on the United States and the Soviet Union to complete a comprehensive test ban. A comprehensive test ban treaty could influence adherence by other countries to the non-proliferation treaty. The non-proliferation treaty is under great threat. The countries on the threshold of developing nuclear weapons, of which there are at least eight and probably 10, always invoke as their argument to allow them to proliferate nuclear weapons horizontally the absence of agreement among the nuclear weapon States on vertical proliferation.
Another major area that must be looked at by all Governments, particularly in the United Nations second special session, is the risk of taking the nuclear arms race into space. There is now a real danger of that, let alone the danger of going into chemical weapons. Some people are anxious, too, that there may have already been breaches in the biological weapons treaty.
As to the future and what should or should not replace Polaris, first, we should not make the decision now. It should be left open and reviewed in four to five years' time.

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The Secretary of State simply cannot go on refusing to accept that his critics have a serious case when they argue that we should look at the cruise missile option. In his posture statement published on 8 February 1982 the American Secretary of Defence announced:
"Nuclear-armed sea-launched cruise missiles will be deployed on attack submarines beginning in FY 1984. These weapons will provide some near-term hard target kill capability, while contributing to a strategic reserve."
It is hard to estimate exactly how many missiles are likely to be deployed by the United States, but some would say that by the end of the 1980s it is planning to deploy about 600 land-targeted sea-launched cruise missiles with nuclear warheads, of which perhaps 200 would or could be in the European theatre.
It is just at this moment, when the United States has developed the Tomahawk missile and decided that it is a contribution to the strategic reserve, that the Secretary of State dismisses it totally as an option and pursues the extremely expensive, highly sophisticated super power nuclear weapon system.
Mr. Nott: It has not been dismissed out of hand. I said in my speech that we considered the option with great care over a period of two years. It is one of the many that we looked at. I know of no one in the United States who would consider a cruise missile launched from a submarine as a credible strategic deterrent. Such people do not exist. If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that we should put a few nuclear cruise missiles on our existing hunter-killer submarines, let me point out that we should have fewer submarines for the conventional role. The right hon. Gentleman must listen to what we say. We have considered that matter in great depth.
Dr. Owen: I wish that many others could be convinced that the right hon. Gentleman had given the matter objective analysis.
I repeat that the decision does not need to be taken at this time. The right hon. Gentleman's decision to spend money on the Polaris missile has given him freedom and room for manoeuvre, so he can think again. It has given us all the capability and capacity to spend the next five years having a far more serious look than ever before at how to achieve arms control and genuine disarmament.
This is the very moment when Britain's voice could be exercised in a multilateral context as a serious friend of the United States—a critic at times, and rightly so, but a consistent ally. We cannot, as Labour Members seem to think, exercise influence over the United States by being neutralist or unilateralist. Over the next four to five years we could ensure a major breakthrough in arms control and disarmament. To neglect the opportunity—to pursue Trident and to go ahead with the commitment—is a decision that the Government will regret and that the country will reject. The decision should be rejected in the Division Lobby tonight.
5.14 pm
Mr. Cranley Onslow: Although I happen to be Chairman of the Select Committee on Defence, I do not seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in that capacity. I simply wish to draw on the advantages of having been a member of the Committee for some time to make a few comments.
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I do not speak, either, on behalf of the Committee or even for what I believe to be a majority of it, although the majority of Members probably share my view. I am glad to say that the Government have already shown that they embrace it. If we are to continue to live an independent strategic nuclear deterrent, one or other of the Trident systems is the only way to achieve that. Trident II, the D5 system, is the most sensible and probably the most economical.
If it is to be a credible strategic deterrent, it must be submarine-based. The disadvantages of an air or ground-launched system have become clear as the debate has continued.
Mr. Denzil Davies: Although he was not Chairman at the time, the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Committee when it produced the report which says of Trident II at paragraph 33:
"This we are unanimous in finding wholly unacceptable."
Mr. Onslow: I am sorry. The right hon. Gentleman should have a close and careful look at the paper from which he is quoting. He is reading from the minority report. Let us not waste the time of the House with such baseless interventions from the Front Bench. We had a speech from the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin), who purports to speak for the Opposition. He made one thing crystal clear. Little though he knows about farming, he speaks a great deal better about that than about defence. His deputy has just proved that he does not know anything about anything.
Having disposed of air and ground-launched systems, and, I hope, carrying the House with me that a system that depends on a launch from surface vessels has nothing to recommend it, we are left with four choices. They have been espoused with varying degrees of enthusiasm by right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken, although I am bound to say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) has a unique solution, to which I may return.
The first alternative propounded is that we should have a cruise missile system based on a submarine, presumably one that has a vertical launch capability, which would mean that a new submarine would have to be built. If we are to start building new submarines, I do not believe that we can hang around for the four or five years that the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) suggests. When the right hon. Gentleman reads handouts that flow through our mail from the American embassy, he should be careful not to misstate the sense in which words are used. It is my suspicion—I am sure that the Minister will confirm this—that whatever Mr. Weinberger said when he spoke about hard target capability and strategic reserves in the context of possibly putting cruise missiles on to American hunter-killer submarines, he was not trying to build those into the level of a strategic deterrent. If the right hon. Gentleman has another look at the speech, he will see what it really means.
The second alternative is to have a continuation of the Polaris system, which is the other leg of the soft option, which the right hon. Gentleman seems to favour. I understand his anxiety not to have to take decisions in advance of the general election. However, what worries me is that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to gamble this country's long-term interests on a solution where all the evidence suggests that the costs will escalate, that reliability will decline and that hostile technology will

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render the system less and less credible and effective as time goes by. We already know that the penalties that he would impose on himself are range and sea room tenfold less in magnitude than the operational scope offered by either of the Trident systems. However anxious the right hon. Gentleman may be to profit from the soft option policy, he must not carry that to such extremes that he gambles our national security upon it. I hope that the House will agree with me on that.
The third and fourth choices are both on Trident. One is to have a new submarine with a C4 missile, which would involve all the penalties of buying off the end of the line, all the costs in support that we have seen and all the problems of updating it, which we have already encountered with Chevaline. The arguments run the other way in favour of a new submarine with a D5 system. They are well rehearsed and set out. They have been set out remarkably freely and frankly by the Government in the documents that they have published and in the evidence given to the Committee on which I am happy to serve.
It is also true that a great deal of misinformation has been put about. If one watches television from time to time or reads some of the learned articles in the newspapers, one finds it difficult to persuade oneself that any of the people who write those articles or prepare those programmes have done any homework.
I shall give one example. On 11 January there was a Granada "World in Action" programme on television, which was almost the most mischievous and partisan misrepresentation that I have ever seen from "World in Action". That is strong language. I am sure that the right hon. Member for Devonport did not mean it to be a personal advertisement for his point of view, but that is the impression that I received. I am sure that that was a coincidence and that the producer had no intention of giving that impression. It was not a good programme because it was a mine of misinformation. I hope and believe that, as the debate in the country continues, it will gain progressively from public awareness of the facts. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Member for Deptford would undertake to listen rather than to speak to his hon. Friends for a little while, that would also be a contribution to this debate.
Some points still need clarification. I am glad that my hon. Friend who is to wind up the debate will deal with the amount of work and the proportion of cost in the United States. There is still uncertainty about the question of the precise distribution of the costs and the change that has followed from the move from C4 to D5.
In the longer term, the work that we can undertake is of crucial importance. That depends on the capability and willingness of British industry to go out and get it, and on the willingness of the American Administration to open doors for British industry to do so. I was glad to hear what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said about that. It also depends on the adoption in the United States of a political attitude that makes it genuinely possible for us to compete on fair terms. In recent months there has been an alarming drift in the opposite direction.
I am also glad to have been assured in a letter today from Senator John Tower, the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, that that matter is exercising his committee. He hopes that the situation will be corrected in the weeks ahead in Congress. I hope that he will succeed as a lot turns on that. Much of the faith that people in this country should have in the Trident system
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Will turn upon the extent to which we are genuinely able to make an industrial contribution to our defence in this as in so many other areas.
There is another dimension to this question, which has not yet been greatly explored in this and previous debates. It concerns France. With the Select Committee on Defence, I have just been fortunate to spend a week in France. We were very hospitably received and kindly looked after. We discussed defence matters very frankly with our counterparts in the National Assembly defence committee, with officers of all three Services and with Ministers in the French Administration. The one crystal clear difference between nuclear strategy in France and this country is that there is no difference between the political parties in France about the need for France to have an independent nuclear capability. There is no doubt in the minds of the French about the existence of a threat. They perceive it as clearly as any sane man can perceive the threat that the Russians make so manifest to anyone who has eyes to see.
There is no dispute about the need for France to be able to defend French national interests with French resources. The French are now spending over 19 per cent. of their defence budget on strategic and tactical nuclear capability. We are arguing about 5 or 6 per cent. as a figure that we may reach in some years' time. The French spend about the same amount of money on defence as we do. They are spending 19 per cent. of that total on nuclear capability—on a submarine capability, an airborne capability and on a land-based system. That means that there are three different kinds of strategic nuclear deterrent all in French control and all of French manufacture and all, I do not doubt, as efficient as the French can make them and I am sure that the French believe that they are a credible deterrent to the Russians.
Against that background of reality, what is to happen if the Opposition have their way? The first question that must be answered follows from what I have said. Do Opposition Members who argue for the abandonment of a British nuclear capability want to see France become the only nuclear power in Europe? If that is what they want, I should be obliged to hear them say that. However, they seem to be very discreet, not to say coy, on that subject. I do not know what the right hon. Member for Devonport thinks about that. I do not believe that he wants to tell us. I shall draw my own conclusions. Perhaps he wants to tell us, after all.
Dr. Owen: The hon. Gentleman could not have listened to my speech if he is in any doubt that I believe that we should retain a deterrent if we can afford it, for as long as we can afford it. If there is no movement in arms control, I should be prepared to consider an alternative replacement to Polaris.
Mr. Onslow: Let us suppose that when we come to make that choice after the next general election we find that we cannot do it, but we find that the French have already done it. Is that a happy state of affairs for the right hon. Gentleman to contemplate? Is he prepared to risk that? I wonder whether he is as consistent, logical and clear as he likes to pretend. I do not know where the right hon. Member for Deptford stands on anything, so it is not much use asking him where he stands on the French question.
The second consequence of the Opposition having their way that we can identify is one that my right hon. Friend

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the Secretary of State outlined. If we take this country out of the strategic nuclear capability, it leaves the ultimate defence of our national interest in someone else's hands. That is not a happy state of affairs. We cannot rely on our alliances continuing untouched for ever. We cannot be sure that the threats against us will not multiply as time passes. We shall take a risk simply by our idleness in refusing to face the facts.
My third point is that the abandonment of the nuclear capability could open the way to the forces of unilateralism and neutralism, which would be much welcomed by the hon. Members below the Opposition Gangway. It is a short step from the ending of a British independent capability to the insistence by the crowds in Trafalgar Square and other such representative bodies on withdrawing all United States bases from our shores, whether nuclear or not.
Mr. Newens: Hear, hear.
Mr. Onslow: Yes, there we go. It will be the next speech in the list. The proponents of such a course know that these steps follow one another in a logical chain and will lead to NATO being ruined beyond repair and to the crumbling of the Western alliance. The wedge will be driven between the two sides of the Atlantic and the alliance will collapse. It is idle for the Social Democratic Party to pretend that its course of indecision and inaction will strengthen NATO or make the Western alliance stronger in the short term or in the long term. We know that it is under stress. One of the main reasons is that people are fearful. That is the only part of the speech of the right hon. Member for Deptford with which I agree. People are fearful because he and others like him have played on their ignorance, and ignorance is the father of fear.
Mr. Frank Allaun: That is true in America, too.
Mr. Onslow: Yes, there are ignorant people in America whose fears have been inflamed in the same way. No doubt the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) spends his time looking for more of the ignorant with a view to inflaming their fears.
We have reached the crossroads and a decision will have to be made. We cannot possibly accept the pantomime horse of the amendment that the Opposition have put forward. With great respect to my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone, we cannot decide not to buy what he called the wrong weapon from the wrong firm at the wrong time in favour of a decision to buy a weapon which does not exist at a cost which we do not know from a manufacturer whom we cannot identify. That is asking a little too much.
We must ensure that we retain a foundation for security, and only a decision to support the Government can possibly give the nation that.
5.32 pm
Mr. Donald Stewart: The hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) based a good deal of his argument on what the French are doing. That is not the right way to approach this subject. In 1939, prior to the beginning of the Second World War, even Churchill believed that the French had the best army in Europe. We discovered subsequently how correct that was.
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The Government should be prepared to face massive opposition to the Trident programme. The Opposition will not be confined to the Labour Party. The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin), in opening the debate for the Labour Opposition, claimed that only the Labour Party is opposed to nuclear weapons. I refute that claim. The Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru may not be as large as the Labour Party, or as large as it was before the mice started nibbling at it, but they have a far longer record of opposition to nuclear weapons than has the Labour Party.
Even the SDP candidate for Glasgow, Hillhead—he appeared to be making policy on the wing, as it were—said that he would cancel Trident if it were not in operation by the time that he reached office. It is interesting to note that a poll taken among the Hillhead electors revealed that 75 per cent. of them were opposed to the Trident missile. Even more interesting is the fact that 50 per cent. of the Conservatives who were polled said that they were opposed to Trident missiles coming to Scotland.
I was impressed by the case of the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser), who stressed that the independence of the United Kingdom is important. In these matters it seems that it is becoming a Crown State of the United States. The Prime Minister echoes all the sabre-rattling pronouncements of President Reagan. The right hon. Lady and her Government seem never to stop to realise that they might earn more respect and possibly exercise more influence if they did not greet all the pronouncements with such unqualified and sycophantic approval.
Trident is a first-strike weapon. It can be used to knock out enemy missiles before they can be fired and, indeed, well in advance of any intention on the enemy's part to fire. This is the destabilisation of the deterrent theory—a theory which is no longer tenable. Nuclear weapons are not the key to world peace and security. In the past 12 years the nuclear arms race has proceeded precipitately. The United Nations estimates that there are now over 30, 000 warheads in existence and that over 15, 000 of them are in the hands of the two nuclear super powers, the United States of America and the USSR. The longer we wait for attempts multilaterally to disarm, the larger the arsenals grow and the more difficult it becomes to bring about disarmament.
Consideration must also be given to the economic burden. Before the Second World War those of my generation were shocked by Goering's statement that guns came before butter. However, the United Kingdom, like the United States, is well on the way to implementing that philosophy. The Trident system is likely to cost £10, 000 million. There will then be the cost of keeping it operational.
Mr. Churchill: The right hon. Gentleman has called the Trident system a first-strike system. He is mistaken. No seaborne system has the accuracy to make a pre-emptive strike, certainly with the size of warhead that the Trident has, which is about one-eightieth the size of the SS 18 warhead. Is the right hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that anyone could make a pre-emptive first strike with one submarine on station?
Mr. Stewart: According to what I have read of what these weapons contain, one warhead would be enough to

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set the whole show on the go. That is the danger. The idea of a deterrent has gone. This is what will be taken into account by the Russians.
Many military experts have renounced the use and deployment of nuclear weapons. Only recently Sir Solly Zuckerman said that
"if anything is going to inhibit the Russians from making an incursion into NATO Europe it will be NATO's conventional forces".
We know that the conventional forces of European countries are weak. Expenditure on the nuclear option rather than support for conventional forces further weakens our position and lowers dangerously the nuclear war threshold. I cannot understand why the Navy has been run down to such an extent. A nation State surrounded by sea surely should ensure that its Navy is kept in a sufficient condition to repel those who might wish to attack it.
The position of my party is one of total opposition to Trident and to nuclear weapons generally, especially those based on Scottish soil, including the Polaris system——
Mr. John MacKay rose——
Mr. Stewart: —which was upgraded and made more lethal by the Labour Government. The SNP looks forwards to an independent Scotland that will follow a policy of nuclear-free armed neutrality.
Mr. MacKay rose——
Mr. Stewart: We wish constructively to contribute to the easing of East-West tension and to reversing the nuclear arms build-up. However, we recognise that 30 years of multilateral disarmament talks have achieved exactly nothing. That being so, we are committed to supporting the unilateral renunciation of nuclear weapons. While the NATO pact remains committed to nuclear weapons, requires them to be stationed on Scottish soil and envisages a theatre nuclear war in Europe, the SNP will not wish to subscribe to that organisation.
At the beginning of this Session my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) and I tabled a motion calling for a public inquiry into the proposed siting of the Trident base at Coulport or Loch Long. That inquiry has so far been denied us and today I re-emphasised that motion by tabling a question on the subject.
I shall observe the Division with great interest. Many local councils in Scotland, both regional and district, have declared their outright opposition to Trident. If, as I expect, the majority of Scottish Members vote against the motion, it will be clear that Scotland's democratic voice has been adequately expressed. My party is ready and willing to take on the mantle of the protectors of the democratic Scottish will. The Labour Party in Scotland, in bowing completely to Westminster domination, has signally failed to protect Scotland in any way and does not deserve the confidence that the Scots put in it at the general election.
This programme will meet tremendous opposition, which will be compounded if there is any attempt to station it in Scotland.
5.40 pm
Mr. D. A. Trippier: The importance of today's debate cannot be over-emphasised, as the security of our nation well into the next century is at stake. Although the importance of that is not in question on the
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Government Benches, so far one could be forgiven for believing that the Opposition not only doubt that it is important but that there is any need for it.
Although it may be tempting to answer some of the points raised by right hon. and hon. Labour Members—more specifically by the factions of the lunatic Left—I am anxious to avoid that temptation. However, I am fascinated by the amendment that has been tabled by the official Opposition, which concentrates largely on a change of emphasis in conventional defence.
Much of the public debate about the changing emphasis in conventional defence arose as a result of the elevation of my right hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Not t) to the post of Secretary of State for Defence in January 1981. Since then some dramatic changes have been made which, in the view of many of us, were long overdue. Whatever criticism those changes may have invited from some of his colleagues, he has rightly remained steadfast in his resolve that he is in the business of defending the United Kingdom by the best means possible.
Throughout that period my right hon. Friend has been bedevilled by four major obstacles. The first is that almost every member of the Conservative Party in Parliament considers himself a living expert on defence. Secondly, there is great inter-Service rivalry among the three major Services. Thirdly, we have a Ministry of Defence with a propensity to leak like a sieve. The fourth factor is the modernisation of the independent strategic nuclear deterrent. There is another—the escalation of costs in sophisticated weaponry, programmes and systems that has far outstripped the rise in inflation.
Although the last obstacle has proved to be the most formidable and has been referred to in the debate, I should say a few words about the others. The first statement—that Conservative Members consider themselves experts on defence—is fallacious. The subject is so complex and wide-ranging that I suspect no one has met an expert, if such a superhuman exists. However, it has not stopped us believing that we meet the criteria, nor has it stopped us plaguing my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
The second statement—that my right hon. Friend has been bedevilled by inter-Service rivalry—is nothing new. On 3 August 1926 Stanley Baldwin, the then Prime Minister, had to issue a directive to his three Chiefs of Staff which read:
"And you are expressly to take notice that in all matters in respect of which you are so required jointly to investigate, consider, deliberate and advise, each of you is to keep always before his mind the object for which the said Committee of Imperial Defence was created and exists, that is to say, for the consideration of questions of defence as a whole and for the coordination of the function of the several arms of His Majesty "s Forces, all considerations concerning a single Service being subordinated to the main object of National and Imperial Defence which the three Services have in common."
I am tempted to suggest that my right hon. Friend may wish to have framed copies of that historic document hung in every office at the Ministry of Defence. At the very least, it illustrates that nothing changes. Nor do I believe, unfortunately, that it ever will.
The propensity of the Ministry of Defence to leak like a sieve is qualified. Of course, it never leaks State secrets. It leaks tactically. The tactic is followed for a precise reason, which is to so stupefy the recipient of such information that he will do everything in his power to avert the prescribed course of action.
Mr. Critchley: Is it really true that the Ministry of Defence leaks like a sieve or is it perhaps more accurate to say that the Ministry of Defence suffers from obsessive secrecy?
Mr. Trippier: I am sure that it is not the latter. I merely say that those who work at the Ministry of Defence, whether uniformed officers or civil servants, may consider that it is in the national interest for them to leak tactically. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that, on balance, it is inadvisable so to do. If any Department is to keep its secrets, it should be the Ministry of Defence.
The specific matters that we are asked to consider today are not leaks. They are not even hypotheses. They are facts that have been known for some time. The Government's decision to replace Polaris by Trident is right. I contend that it is right for us to decide in favour of the Trident II (D5) system, not only because it will it avoid problems of uniqueness and retain commonality with the United States of America, but because it will avoid the United Kingdom having to replace obsolescent components of a system during its lifetime at great expense. In addition, once the United Kingdom loses commonality with America it will also lose the opportunity to share support costs. Furthermore, British involvement and expertise in ballistic missile technology cannot possibly match that found in the United States of America. There is a definite advantage in acquiring and being privy to such a sophisticated weaponry system as the D5. It not only gives the defence industry access to more technical information but serves as an influential factor in the international community.
The Polaris production line had to be reopened at considerable expense because of the need to re-motor the Polaris missiles. Although Chevaline—the device to modernise the front end of the missile—has been successful, it has cost the United Kingdom Government £1 billion——
Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sorry, but I wish to cause a disturbance and I shall ask you how to do it. Two schoolchildren in my constituency have been smashed about by skinheads and racists. Their parents have written to the police but have not received a reply. They wrote to me and I wrote to the police, but the police do not answer the letters. I then wrote to the Home Secretary but he did not reply. What should I do to see that the police do their duty——
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. I understand the strong feelings of the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis) on the matter, but he will understand that it has nothing to do with this debate and that there are other opportunities—there will certainly be an opportunity tomorrow—for him to raise the issue, but he cannot do so now.
Mr. Lewis: I am much obliged to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I apologise, but a Pakistani was killed in my constituency by those racists. Surely the police must be made to answer letters when Members of Parliament write to them. As I cannot raise questions, what can I do?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is a very old parliamentary hand and has been here for much longer than I have. He knows that there are plenty of opportunities to raise such matters, but not in a debate on Trident.
Mr. Trippier: As I said, Chevaline cost the united Governments £1 billion, which is three times more than planned. The example of that project illustrates that the loss of commonality with America would mean a substantial rise in the cost of operation and maintenance during the entire life cycle of the Trident C4 force.
The official Opposition are against Trident for two other reasons. First, they say that it would escalate the arms race. That is a ridiculous suggestion, because Trident will be merely modernising an existing nuclear force. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said in his statement earlier this month, we shall determine how many warheads Trident carries. Secondly, they object to Trident because the programme would break the spirit, if not the letter, of the non-proliferation treaty. As the START negotiations are bilateral there is no scope for a reduction in the United Kingdom's strategic force without calling its deterrent effectiveness into question. Incidentally, how will the Labour Party find new jobs for the 1 million people who will be put out of work and who are currently employed in the nuclear weapons industry? Labour Members should spare us the lectures on finding alternative work in Britain when the propaganda of the Tribune Group and of CND states that money saved on defence should be used to help the Third world and developing countries. I waited patiently for the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) to talk about "the threat". However, he did not refer at any time to "the threat" or to the interpretation that he put on it. Where does it come from? How does the right hon. Gentleman interpret it? I hope that at the end of the debate the Opposition will tell us a little more about that.
To sustain a case for unilateral disarmament, the Parliamentary Labour Party must prove beyond any shadow of doubt that it would set an example that other countries would follow, or that, as a result, we would avoid a nuclear conflict. It may be said that if we were unilaterally to disarm, we would set an example that other countries would follow. Who would follow? Would France, the United States of America or Russia follow? Not one of them would follow and the Opposition know it. Therefore, the Opposition have failed on the first count.
I turn to the hypothesis that, by unilateral disarmament, we would avoid a nuclear conflict. Some of us have attended CND meetings and it is often said that if we were to disarm unilaterally we would not be involved in a nuclear conflict. However, events would not take place like that. If we were not in a position to retaliate—irrespective of the interpretation of deterrence given by CND supporters—we would be blackmailed. There would not be a nuclear conflict, because we would be unable to resist. As I have pointed out at Question Time recently, in the event of a nuclear war neither this country nor any other member State of NATO could be safe. That is a fact.
In his excellent opening speech, the Secretary of State spoke about the expense of Trident. I acknowledge that Trident is expensive, but it is not nearly as expensive as the war that it will help to prevent.
5.53 pm
Dr. John Gilbert: As the debate is on Trident rather than on defence, I shall confine my remarks to the Trident decision and its consequences. The Secretary of State has done at least one great service to the country in choosing the D5, because as a result the

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expenditure pattern has moved substantially to the right and it will therefore be easier for any incoming Government to cancel the programme for a minimum nugatory cost.
I shall briefly set forth my credentials before setting out why I oppose the Secretary of State's decision, In Government I always favoured possession by the United Kingdom of a strategic nuclear capability. I still favour possession of such a capability and, indeed, the polls show that the majority of British people still favour possession of such a capability. The question is whether the Trident system is the right system for the United Kingdom, and whether we can afford it.
The cost of the D5 system is now £8, 000 million. As a previous exchange made clear, there is no question that it is—if one can use such language about such disgusting things—an extremely efficient and excellent weapon system. However, it is beyond our power to afford it. I am worried not only about its cost but about its vulnerability. Recently, the Secretary of State gave evidence to the Select Committee on his confidence about the invulnerability of Trident's command and control systems. I wish that I shared his confidence.
The American Administration regard the preservation of the command and control systems as the single most urgent call on funds in their defence budget. The Secretary of State says that our systems are superior to those of America, or that it is easier to maintain the integrity of our command and control systems, because we have only a handful of submarines and, anyway, we have two systems. It makes no difference whether there is a redundancy factor in the systems or whether neither of them is capable of maintaining that integrity. As Britain apparently does not intend to spend any money—I hope that I shall be corrected by the Under-Secretary—on extremely low frequency communication systems for submarines, I am extremely unhappy about the prospect of maintaining the integrity even of our existing forces.
It is nonsense to talk of the system as being exclusively British, as the Secretary of State did. Indeed, the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Critchley) mentioned the question of supplying parts and made that point clear. What are the reasons for Trident? They cannot be range. The idea that buying a weapon system that gives us a range of 6, 000 miles, instead of a 2, 500-mile range, could be of any benefit to the United Kingdom is sheer poppycock. On Wednesday 17 March I questioned the Secretary of State on that point in the Select Committee. I pointed out that we had a distinct geographic advantage over the Soviet Union and the United States of America because we do not need to deploy our submarines forward and could attack the Soviet Union's heartland from our home waters. I pointed out that the Soviet Union had a case for acquiring the 6, 000 mile system, because it could keep its submarines near Murmansk and would not have to deploy them forward. In reply to question 126, the Secretary of State said:
"I can assure you there is absolutely no advantage to the Soviets whatsoever in stationing their SSBNs close to their home ports. There can be no advantage in that at all."
I do not know which strategic advisers advise the Secretary of State, or which strategic advisers the right hon. Gentleman thinks may be advising Admiral Gorshkov.
It is an extraordinary idea that the Soviets will acquire a 6, 000 mile range missile system and continue to deploy it forward in the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom gap.
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That is nonsense. The Americans are keen to have Trident because they can then close Holy Loch. They will no longer need it, and that is what they will do. They can deploy their boats just of King's Bay, Georgia, while the Soviets will have to send the SSNs across the best part of 6, 000 miles to find them. I do not believe that the Secretary of State has ever looked at a map. If he does not have any maps in his office, he should go to the Minister of State's office, which has two excellent maps on the wall. He might then find out where 6, 000 miles from Moscow takes him.
The Secretary of State could take our ballistic nuclear submarines to Long Island sound. What use is it to us to be able to deploy our submarines as far west as that? It may be some use to the Americans to deploy ballistic nuclear submarines in Long Island sound, but it passes belief that that could be of any use to us. The Secretary of State does not know the speed at which ballistic nuclear submarines travel when on patrol. They go more slowly than a man can go on a bicycle. In fact, they go with the minimum speed possible in order to maintain steerage way. That is somewhere in the order of 1½ to 2½knots, depending on the circumstances. I leave it to hon. Members to work out how long it would take, going at 1½ to 2½knots—which is the speed at which one gets maximum quietness in submarines—to go and return 6, 000 miles. It is an absolute nonsense. All that additional sea room for which the Secretary of State is paying £8, 000 million cannot possibly be used, but he must justify to the House the expenditure involved in obtaining it.
The Secretary of State does not need the extra accuracy. We know that Trident is more accurate than Polaris. It is certainly accurate enough to attack silos. However, it is not accurate enough to guarantee to take them out, which is the crucial factor. As the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) pointed out, it is impossible for any submarine-based system to be accurate enough to guarantee to take out silos. Therefore, the Secretary of State does not want that greater accuracy. If he intends to use those ballistic missiles to attack silos, he must be out of his mind. The whole point of them is to destroy Russian cities. That is where the deterrent effect of the strategic capability reposes in the United Kingdom's hands. He does not need any extra accuracy over and above that already provided by the Polaris system.
The only reason for the United Kingdom to acquire the Trident system that stands a moment's inspection is the preservation of commonality with the United States—leaving aside the rather tribal macho instincts of the Prime Minister. As we have discovered, we are, as a result, very dependent on the good will of the United States for the maintenance of our flow of spares.
The Secretary of State says that he can maintain the independence of the system by building up the facility in Britain to manufacture spares. He has not told us—I hope the Under-Secretary will take note of this question—what it would cost to acquire that facility should the flow of spares be denied us. That is an important element in the equation. It was not so long ago that we were told that it was out of the question for us to have Polaris remotored because it would cost far too much to reopen the Polaris motor production line. That was one of the reasons why the running on of the Polaris option—one of the options advanced by the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser)—was rejected. It was not long after that we discovered that, as a result of force majeure, the Secretary

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of State had to go to the Americans to ask for the Polaris motor line to be reopened. It has been reopened and he is able to get his missiles remotored.
I reject completely the option of having cruise missiles in SSNs, which was advanced by the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen). I regard that as an equally grotesque misuse of resources. There is no way that one will be able to have enough cruise missiles, with however much enhanced effectiveness and accuracy one gets in the number of SSNs and SSBNs that Britain possesses, for them to make a credible nuclear deterrent, given the numbers of them that are unlikely to arrive at their targets.
I touch parenthetically on a couple of points that came up in the debate. A question has been raised as to whether the Polaris submarines will be too noisy. I think—I do not want to put words into his mouth—that the Secretary of State said that if we were to run on the Polaris submarines they would be too noisy. I see no reason why a future generation of Polaris submarines should be too noisy. After all, the new pressurised water reactor and the new pumps are going into the SSN programme as the new SSN boats are being built. Presumably, anechoic coating would also be available for a new generation of SSBNs armed with Polaris missiles. I see no reason to doubt her Majesty's Government's ability to make a future generation of SSBNs with Polaris missiles just as quiet as Trident submarines.
Incidentally, if I may take a brief side swipe at the Secretary of State, he says that we have a substantial lead over the Soviet Union in submarine technology. I wish he would not be quite so complacent, unless he can tell the House that, for example, he knows how to build titanium hulls. There are many areas of submarine technology where the Soviet Union is considerably ahead not only of this country but of the United States. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) reminds me, the Soviet Union is also ahead in anechoic coating. It does not lie well in the mouth of the Secretary of State to be so complacent in these matters.
The Secretary of State's argument for Trident seems to be that it does not cost all that much, that it is comparable with the Tornado programme, and that the recent cuts in the defence programme are not due to Trident. If that is so, it is clear that something else must be causing the cuts in the defence programme, and it must be the Tornado programme. If we are suffering these cuts as a consequence of Tornado, God help us all when we have to face the full brunt of the Trident programme in later years, if what the Secretary of State says is true, and I think that he is accurate in that respect.
The Secretary of State has failed absolutely to give the Select Committee or this House at any time an indication of the opportunity costs that are being forced upon our conventional capability as a result of the Trident decision. I am now more than three years away from office and have had to rely on the Secretary of State for figures but I will give him a list of things on which he needs to spend money urgently.
The Secretary of State needs particularly to spend money on the maintenance of the integrity of the command and control systems of our nuclear and our conventional weapon systems. He needs to spend money urgently on the acquisition of an adequate system of IFF—identification
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of friend and foe—for our fast jet aircraft; on the enhancement of our war stocks of air to air, surface to air and anti-tank weapons; in all areas of electronic warfare—electronic counter measures and electronic counter-counter measures; on more point and area defence missile systems; and on the hardening of prime targets both here and in Germany; on the enhancement of our anti-mine warfare capability; and on anti-submarine warfare. The list of critical areas that will be starved of funds as a result o the Trident decision is almost endless.
We simply cannot afford Trident, any more than we can afford our own system of satellites. The Secretary of State jumps at that. There was a time when we had aspirations to have our own system of military satellites. We decided that we could no longer afford it. Regrettably, we can no longer afford a system such as Trident. I give the Secretary of State credit for giving much information on Trident, but he gave virtually no information on the options.
Leaving aside my hon. Friends who, for reasons that I fully understand, are completely opposed to our having any nuclear capability, the Secretary of State has totally failed to persuade many of us in this House—even those of us who share his views about the desirability of the United Kingdom having a strategic nuclear capability—as to whether we can afford the option that has been put before him.
I like the Secretary of State, reject cruise, but he has not given us details of the costs, the efficency and the numbers that would be involved in going for a cruise option. It is his duty to deploy the figures that would be involved in a run-on of a Polaris-Chevaline option and the various cruise options. That is the real indictment of the Secretary of State. He has dismissed the alternatives that have been seriously put forward by those of us in this House who are seeking to maintain our defences in ways that are less costly and grandiose than his.
The Secretary of State says that he has studied the options, but he has given no proof that he has gone through the figures. He will not disclose to the House in detail why he has rejected the options. Until he gives the House and the country the detailed figures that were the basis of his decisions not to go for some of the other options that were put forward for his consideration, he has no right to the confidence of either the country or the House.
6.10 pm
Mr. Antony Buck: I listened with great interest to the right hon. Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert). Behind his words one could detect a real regret that he could not convince his colleagues that it is right to go for Trident as a deterrent. I agree with the list that he gave of further items on which I hope my right hon. Friend will spend money and view. as an extra commitment.
I have no doubt that the Government are right to maintain our own independent deterrent. I have talked to Service chiefs in many parts of the world and they and our NATO allies take the view that it is right for us to "have a finger on the trigger"—to coin a phrase—as well as America and the French. I wish that we could find a way of making some of them pay for a lot of what we intend to do —Germany, for example. Nevertheless I found substantial support among our NATO allies for Britain having a capability such as we shall have with the new Trident, which will update our Polaris system. I therefore wholly support the decision that the Government have taken.

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It was suggested by the Scottish National Party spokesman, the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart), that some of us who favoured the decision were being in some way sycophantic. That is not true. There are certain aspects on which I have not been in total agreement with defence decisions taken by Her Majesty's Government. Although I have an Australian wife, I do not exactly have a song in my heart about the sale of HMS "Invincible" to the Australians. Nor do I have a song in my heart about HMS "Endurance", or about the number of aeroplanes that are suggested for the Royal Air Force in future.
As my right hon. Friend knows, some Conservative Members wish that he had crusaded even more that he did, both with his Cabinet colleagues and with the country, to get more than the 3 per cent. increase in real terms agreed by NATO. No one can accuse me or officers of the party committee which I have the honour to chair of sycophancy about these matters. Thus, when I say that I am with the Government 100 per cent, in this decision, it can be taken for granted that I have considered my view carefully, although I am bound to say that I should not wish to be cross-examined on the details of the decision, because of the many aspects of high technology that are involved, as well as matters of high security.
The following is what our American friends would call a "summation" of my reasons for thinking that Her Majesty's Government are right to make the decisions that they are making. The first relates to the wording of the letters, a new edition of which has just been published, exchanged between my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the President of the United States. They assume, as do I, that it it right to have the overall deterrent.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will always remember the words contained therein:
"The economies made possible by the United States Government's co-operation with respect to the supply of the Trident II missile system will be used in order to reinforce the United Kingdom Government's continuing efforts to upgrade their conventional forces".
Those words take it for granted that it is right for us to have a nuclear deterrent. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister rightly spelt out her intention there to use the factum of our being allowed to have Trident the better to upgrade our conventional forces.
In his reply, President Reagan reiterated the importance that he attaches to
"the United Kingdom's efforts to upgrade its conventional forces. Such nuclear and conventional force improvements are of the highest priority for NATO's security".
So the Government were right to make the decision that they have, and I am reassured by the exchange of letters between my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the President of the United States about our conventional intentions.
The reasons why I am in favour of the decision are, I suspect, similar in kind to the consideration that caused the Opposition, including the right hon. Member for Dudley, East, to go for an updating of Polaris. It seems that almost all the arguments in favour of Trident are the ones that must have caused the right hon. Gentleman to agree to an updating of Polaris by the use of Chevaline. I shall not accept from any Opposition Member any criticism about secret government, when the Labour Government went through the whole of that programme without giving a hint to the House. I accept that their internal difficulties may have been the reason. It comes ill from the Opposition to
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say that we are not open enough. I imagine that the right hon. Gentleman was largely responsible for that decision——
Dr. Gilbert indicated dissent——.
Mr. Buck: The right hon. Gentleman must have been closely associated with the decision anyway. I am sure that as the Minister of State he was not kept in the dark about it.
I reaffirm my view that the Government are wholly right to make this decision. One of the main reasons is the perception of these matters as seen, first, by our allies. It is right for hon. Members to pay tribute from time to time to our American allies. As I have said on other occasions, an uncle of mine who was in the Indian Army took his "long leave" between the wars in the Mid-West of the United States. In the 1920s the people in the Mid-West found him interesting, not because he was an Englishman or because he was an Army officer, or because he was an Indian Army officer, but because he had been to New York. That shows the size of America. One can understand people in the Mid-West of that vast country being somewhat isolationist, and it is something that we must guard against.
In my view, it is a great tribute to Americans that they pay such enormous heed to what happens so many miles away. However, they sometimes feel that we in the West are not doing enough, and I am sure that they would feel it amiss if they and the French were the only great powers in NATO to share the "nuclear burden". France is, of course, part of NATO, even if she is not part of the integrated structure. Our American allies want us to have Trident, and it is right that we should bear our part of the burden of nuclear arms. That burden should not be left just to the United States and France.
The main reason why this decision is right, however, is the perception as seen from Moscow and the Warsaw Pact countries—the fact that there is another decision maker. The one thing that is predictable about politics is its unpredictability. Without too much intellectual gymnasticism, one can envisage circumstances in which the Politburo might be doubtful about whether the United States would come to our aid and provide us with a nuclear umbrella. We, our children and our children's children sleep more quietly in our beds because we have in the last resort—in the jargon—the ability to inflict "unacceptable damage" on the potential aggressor.
It may be that the weapon that is now intended has a greater capacity than is strictly necessary. It may have a slightly greater degree of accuracy than is needed for the kind of deterrent that we require. However, that is a fault to the good. The fact that it has greater accuracy could mean that, if the holocaust came, we could align our weaponry on targets that were military and not just on centres of large populations. The damage could be less horrendous than would otherwise occur. The fact that the weapon is stronger than we strictly need is no reason for rejecting it.
I conclude by saying that those people who suggest that we should contract out of the nuclear arms race undermine the efforts of our United States allies and those of our Government to see that we get mutual and balanced force reductions. Whichever type of negotiation we talk about, be it the limitation of theatre nuclear weapons or SALT, we would undermine the position of our allies and of

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NATO if we did not update the powerful deterrent forces that we have had since the war. Therefore, the Government are right in their decision and those who oppose it, however well meaning they may be, are the enemies of peace.
6.20 pm
Mr. Frank Allaun: All previous arms races have ended in war, and we are now engaged in the most terrible arms race the world has ever seen. It can only lead to the same conclusion. Unless we end this race, it will end us.
Earlier, the Secretary of State said that we have had peace for half a lifetime, thanks to nuclear weapons. Yet why is it that there is now more fear and more talk of war than at any time since 1939? It is because people realise that we are getting closer to the brink.
A fortnight ago, a public opinion poll showed that 63 per cent. of people were against Trident and only 23 per cent. for it. Only today, the results of an even more striking poll, this time of American public opinion, has been issued. I thought that the rest of America was behind Reagan's back telling him that he must go ahead. That is not the case. According to Time magazine, which published today's poll, 71 per cent. of the American people are against Reagan's nuclear rearmament policies. [AN HON. MEMBER: "What is the percentage in Russia?"] I have no idea. I am merely informing the House about the percentage in America. Therefore, do not let it be thought that reaction against Trident is merely prejudiced British opinion. It is happening in nearly every country of the world.
The Government argue that they can negotiate only through strength. I well remember a previous Minister saying that we could negotiate only through superior strength. That view has now altered. The Government are now saying that we can negotiate only through strength, but it means precisely the same. How can one be strong except in relation to someone else? That clearly means superior strength. If the Russians take the same line, there is no hope of our avoiding a third world war.
Mr. Churchill: The hon. Gentleman makes much of the so-called arms race, which implies that there has been more than one runner in the race. Is he not aware that over the last 15 years the Soviet Union has deployed intercontinental ballistic missiles at the rate of two a week? That amounts to 1, 500 new ICBMs in the last 15 years. Is he further aware that during that period the United States has not added one ICBM to its inventory, which has been static at 1, 710 systems?
Mr. Allaun: Yes, and I shall come to that point in a moment.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: In an hour.
Mr. Allaun: No, I shall take five minutes. The hon. Gentleman cannot accuse me of making long speeches. I am surprised that a man of his integrity and persuasiveness on constitutional matters should make such a reference to me.
The increase in weaponry by either side only encourages its enemy and accelerates the arms race. That is what we are out to avert.
We are opposed to the nuclear weapons race by both sides. However, contrary to what the hon. Member for
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Stretford (Mr. Churchill) said, the running has been made by America. It was America who manufactured and used the atom bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Four years later, the Russians made an atom bomb. The Americans then made the hydrogen bomb. Shortly afterwards, the Russians also made the hydrogen bomb. After that, the Americans made the intercontinental bomber and the Russians followed suit.
I warn the hon. Member for Stretford and the Secretary of State that if the Government proceed with cruise, Trident and the huge increase in arms spending, the Russians will do the same. I do not want to see that, and if they had any sense they would not want to see it either.
This debate is about Trident, but the struggle against cruise is much more vital although it will not cost as much. Trident is for the 1990s, but cruise, if we permit it, will come here next year. Therefore, the struggle against cruise is much more immediate than the struggle against Trident.
The Labour Party and CND are opposed to Trident for at least four reasons. First, it will make our country far more likely to be made uninhabitable in retaliation if by design, or more likely by accident, a nuclear bomb falls on Moscow or Leningrad. Secondly, there is a vital moral objection. Many of us support the East Anglian mother who said on television that if dropping one of our nuclear weapons on another country meant, as it would the deaths of millions of men, women and children, she would have no part of it under any circumstances. That is where many of us stand.
Thirdly, the official estimate is that Trident will cost £8, 000 million, and we all know that official estimates are gross under-estimates. That does not take into account the reply that I received last week, which said that there would be a 1½per cent. extra cost for running, manning and crewing Trident when it comes into operation. Such money is not chicken feed.
With that money we could build new homes for 500, 000 families who desperately need them. We could restore the NHS. We could avoid slaughtering our universities, technical colleges and polytechnics, such as Salford university. Industry could be re-equipped and we could really begin to aid the hungry nations instead of just talking about it.
Fourthly, this vast new expenditure on Trident indicates that our rulers have given up the idea of trying to prevent a war and have substituted the aim of trying to win it. The "advantage" of that is, by increased accuracy, to be able to wipe out Russian nuclear weapon sites. That can only be of use if NATO strikes first, otherwise it would be too late. It will be an encouragement to both sides to indulge in a pre-emptive strike.
The last two years have been terrible. We have moved nearer and nearer the precipice. We have a war maniac in charge in America and a Prime Minister in our own country who says "Yes, sir" to everything that the President says.
Fortunately, the war moves have aroused the biggest reaction and the greatest peace movement that the world has ever seen. I have been involved in the anti-war struggle since I left school. Never in my lifetime have I known such widespread support for the peace struggle. The instinct for human survival has been alerted, and we depend on that instinct.
Britain will not be acting alone. In the past few months I have taken part in meetings in Europe attended by the leaders of Labour Parties from half the NATO countries.

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They are determined not to have the cruise missile on their territories. A quarter of a million people marched in London on 24 October. There were even bigger numbers in Paris, Madrid, Brussels, Bonn, Amsterdam and Stockholm. All Europe is in revolt.
Next month a book entitled "Let there be a World" by Felix Greene will be published. It concludes:
"This moment in history, when the future of mankind balances on a razor's edge, is not the time to taunt and belittle our enemies, however provocative we consider them to be."
I hope that that message will be heeded by Parliament before it is too late.
6.31 pm
Sir Timothy Kitson: The sadness of the message from the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) is that—although I respect his view of where he ultimately wants to get to—he never points his finger away from one side of the Atlantic towards the Communists. All his criticism has been of the Americans, and he has said nothing about the Russians. Why does the CND always point its finger at our allies? As my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) said, when the Select Committee visited France this week we were surprised to hear Communist members of the defence committee say that they supported the French nuclear deterrent. France spends 19 per cent. of its defence budget on a nuclear deterrent. When the Communist members were asked about the peace movement in France they told us that it is very small and irrelevant. That is partly because all the pat-ties in France support their Government's defence programme.
Mr. Allaun: If the hon. Gentleman was listening to me, he must have realised that I was making it clear that both sides are involved in the nuclear arms race and that we are opposed both to American and Russian nuclear weapons.
Sir Timothy Kitson: I am obliged for those remarks. However, when I have met representatives of the peace movement in my constituency, and in other areas, they have rarely mentioned the activities of the Russians, but always those of the Americans. The hon. Gentleman pointed out at the beginning of his speech that the Americans created the race, but I cannot possibly accept that argument.
Mr. Bob Cryer: It is true.
Sir Timothy Kitson: I was grateful for the way that my right hon. Friend introduced the debate. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Woking, I am grateful for the way that my right hon. Friend has produced the evidence and the documentation from the Department in support of his thinking. That has been exceptionally helpful over the past two years.
When I joined the Select Committee on Defence and we commenced our consideration of our strategic nuclear weapons policy in June 1980, I must admit that I was apprehensive about the Government's intention to replace Polaris with Trident. However, during the months of our inquiry and after listening to the arguments I became convinced that Trident was the only solution. Once the United States Government had made their decision to go for Trident II (D5) it was not practicable or feasible for us to proceed with the Trident C4.
In the past few months, I have listened to colleagues arguing that we should proceed with more economic
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programmes instead of the expensive Trident programme. I cannot believe that it makes any sense to opt for second or third best when considering a nuclear deterrent. We must either go for what appears to be the best and most sophisticated weapon, or opt out of the nuclear race.
In the past few months, hon. Members from both sides of the House have said how badly and unfairly the Royal Navy has been treated because of the Government's decision to go ahead with Trident. Some argue that all the costs of the programme will come out of the naval Vole. At least we were able to clear that up when the Secretary of State for Defence attended the Select Committee on Wednesday 17 March. He made it clear that that was not to be the procedure. He explained that, although the cost would come out of the naval budget, it would not be allocated in the manner envisaged.
I fail to understand why the Navy should complain so much about its role in the defence programme. After all, the. Royal Navy is responsible for sailing, manning and operating Polaris submarines. It will have the same responsibility when Trident comes into commission.
At the end of last year, the Select Committee spent a day on Polaris. We went out and dived in her. We were impressed by the tremendous enthusiasm of the members of the crew in recognising the important role that they play in our defence programme. We have to admit that, be it Polaris or Trident, this is the most effective and important weapon that we have. The Navy is responsible for operating it. By going ahead with the Trident programme, which will run over the next 40 years, the naval role in our defence programme will be paramount.
The original estimate for the capital cost of the Polaris programme in 1963—the year of the Polaris agreement—was £333 million at 1963 prices. The actual capital cost of the programme was £330 million—a reduction of £3 million. The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) implied that the Trident submarine programme would escalate. In fact, the Polaris estimate was probably one of the best in any of our defence programmes. Many sophisticated weapon prices have escalated out of all proportion and have been reported to the House by the Public Accounts Committee. When it comes to submarine building, our record is good.
I am not clear about one matter. About 30 per cent. of Trident C4 capital costs were to be spent in America. Now, two years later, according to the information given by the Secretary of State, that has escalated to 45 per cent. of the costs being spent in the United States. That is a surprisingly large jump. We are talking about £390 million extra for the D5 missiles.
In the questioning that has ensued, the Secretary of State has maintained that the increases have arisen because of the exchange rate of the pound against the dollar. I cannot believe that that is the full explanation. The programme has moved from a 15-year to an 18-year time scale. Does that mean that we shall never have to replace the whole force at once? I realise that with the D5 we shall be able to change the missiles. It is worth noting that the French and the Americans replace part of their fleet rather than make a complete change, as we plan. This could reduce the cost of the fleet replacements, but I wonder whether we are now approaching the matter in terms of changing parts of the fleet at a time rather than carrying out a full replacement programme in the years ahead.
Until there has been an opportunity to assess the Communist threat, to abandon an independent nuclear

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deterrent would be madness. Until the Opposition have been able to study all the defence requirements they cannot abandon the programme without giving the general position full thought. As I listened to the right hon. Member for Deptford deciding, or rather announcing, that the Opposition would not go ahead with Trident, I felt that he was like someone in Grand National week trying to pick the winner before the runners are declared.
As the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) said, until we have had an opportunity to assess the whole situation it is extremely difficult to come to a conclusion. I respect his judgment and the way in which he delivered his speech. But the Opposition spokesman for defence states categorically, before even examining the situation, that if, heaven help us, he is ever returned to office, he will abandon the programme. It is completely unrealistic to come to the House now with that type of conclusion.
The Social Democrats suggest that cruise is a satisfactory alternative. As cruise is subsonic and has only one warhead per missile and does not have the range of Trident missiles, it is not even a sensible comparison, so they may have to alter their views.
If Britain is to maintain an independent nuclear deterrent, as I believe that we should, the Government are quite right to go ahead with Trident. It is a right and proper solution.
6.41 pm
Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: It is a little more than a year since Parliament debated the decision to acquire a successor to Polaris. The most urgent questions then raised related to strategy, costs and the impact of those costs on conventional armaments. Despite the most strenuous efforts of the Secretary of State to reassure Parliament and public opinion, and despite his attendance at meetings of the Select Committee on Defence, those objections remain—and they have been reinforced by doubts arising from offset and arms control. There are five objections with which I shall deal. They are not confined to this side of the House and are substantially reflected in comment outside.
First, Polaris is basically an area weapon while Trident I is designed to strike with much greater accuracy. It can still be argued that Trident I, like Polaris, could be deployed only as an ultimate weapon. Trident II, on the other hand, will have a war fighting capability as well as a deterrent one. With its alleged capacity to strike at pinpoint targets such as enemy missile silos, or command and control locations—like my right hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert), I am sceptical that such accuracy is possible from sea-launched ballistic missile platforms—we seem to have entered, or to be trying to enter, new dimensions of strategic confrontation and analysis. That in itself signals a radical intellectual change in Britain's strategic nuclear posture. Ironically, that fundamental shift has virtually been forced on Britain as a result of being locked into American procurement decisions which do not necessarily reflect our real strategic needs. There is much evidence that the Secretary of State preferred Trident I. Indeed, he was reconciled to it only a year ago. Since then, in that short time, we have had to react to American procurement decisions that have, perhaps, taken us into a new league.
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Secondly, the cost of acquiring Trident II has brought into sharper focus its funding and its possible impact on other spending. The Secretary of State claims, as he did in response to my intervention, that Trident will cost only 3 per cent. of the total defence budget amortised, for 15 to 20 years. He omitted to say, no doubt due to lack of time, that in the years of heavy spending on Trident, in the second half of the decade, the 3 per cent. will become 6 per cent. as the missile bills start coming in. That point should be stressed more and more when substantially greater claims on the equipment budget are made. The construction difficulties and the resulting cost overruns encountered by Electric Boat which manufactures Ohio class submarines show clearly the potential trouble ahead.
Thirdly, there can no longer be any doubt about the effect of these costs on the rest of the defence budget. Planning for Trident already involves a smaller Navy—as the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) acknowledged. The Secretary of State is already making cuts in the Navy when Britain's spending on Trident is at an all-time low. There will be more damaging cuts all through the 1980s of Britain's overstretched conventional defence forces.
As I have said on previous occasions, when I was at the Ministry of Defence I encountered no condition that did more damage to the Services than overstretching. It is inconceivable even now that there can have been sufficient room for the Secretary of State, as he has been anxious to convey to the House for the past year, not to do irreparable harm to the conventional forces. I confidently, although sadly, predict that there will be cuts in the years ahead. I fully expect the Secretary of State to come to the House yet again—if he is Secretary of State for the lifetime of Parliament—with yet another defence review. The announcements made hitherto belie the size and nature of the cuts, especially in the surface fleet of the Royal Navy. It is not good enough for the Secretary of State to say, for example, that elderly ships are being paid off to cut modernisation bills, with which I have every sympathy, that only infrastructure is being attacked, with which I still have some sympathy, and that only redundant dockyard facilities are being closed down. It is likely that most of the redundant ships will not be replaced. British Shipbuilders expressed anxiety to the Select Committee on Defence about the effect on the naval construction programme. More recently, the controller of the Navy told the Select Committee that the naval construction programme was "under very active review", and the Secretary of State himself has admitted that
"we are in a very difficult position"
with regard to warship building.
Mr. Nott: I would entirely understand the hon. Gentleman making those criticisms from the Conservative side of the House. He could then say with justification that 3 per cent. real growth is not sufficient. However, as he voted on an official Opposition amendment just the other day to reduce his party's proposed defence spending to £3½ billion less than that now deployed by the Government, I do not understand how he can now criticise the Government in those terms.
Mr. Duffy: As I shall explain, I am basically concerned with re-ordered priorities within the alliance. That point has not been sufficiently brought out. It was mentioned for the first time by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, West (Mr. Brown) in an

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intervention in the Secretary of State's speech. I shall also argue for a little more rationalisation, standardisation and inter-operability within the alliance, and thus for more cost-effective spending and a more rational allocation of resources, as well as for the division of tasks within the alliance. I shall therefore be arguing against some of the options. For instance, the Secretary of State has taken up the posture of behaving, as it were, like a super power, at any rate in the acquisition of super power weaponry. That is one example that has come out of today's debate.
The Government originally estimated that for the period 1985–90 Trident would take 8 per cent. of the total equipment budget, which would represent about 12 per cent. of spending on new equipment. That has already been modified to 10 per cent. of spending on all equipment, representing 15 per cent. of spending on new equipment. The Secretary of State may agree, on reflection, that he was less than clear about that today, although he was given the opportunity by an intervention.
Against that background, together with current reviews of defence commitments and spending on conventional programmes, it is difficult to see how it will be possible to continue to give top priority to the Trident programme throughout the decade without displacing or squeezing out other equipment programmes. Yet the Government keep saying that, just because they have earmarked more than £8 billion for the acquisition of Trident, the project will entail no degradation of conventional defence capabilities. The Secretary of State keeps saying that, just because there will be a growth rate of 3 per cent. per year in real terms until the middle of this decade, with the prospect, perhaps—it is only "perhaps"—of a further 1 per cent. thereafter, in the next several years more rather than less will be spent on, say, new warships, armoured fighting vehicles and planes, as well as on weapons and ammunition and the list that my right hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert) offered today.
What the Secretary of State has argued may be true in global financial terms, but that is not how it strikes the individual Services now, and it is unlikely to amount to that in individual Service equipment terms. For a start, provision for Trident has already been incorporated in the budget projections for the rest of the 1980s and the early 1990s. The Secretary of State has placed long-term costings on a basis quite different from those that he inherited from his predecessor and from the Labour Government. Within the new long-term costings, he has first made provision for Trident and then very roughly divided what is left between the Services. Therefore, he has not been able to accommodate all that the Services need. No Secretary of State has ever been able to do that. Nevertheless, at no time have the Services nursed a greater grievance than they now do about the sacrifice of some of their programmes as a result of this project. It is not even as though the Trident programme were being spread over the defence budget. Its management has been given to the Navy, which means the responsibility for it must be accepted by the Navy. As a result, the other two Services will continue to hate the Navy, as they have for the past year or two, because of Trident, and they will blame the Navy for any shortcomings that they suffer in the next five or six years.
It is conventional weaponry forgone that needs to be borne in mind—the weapons systems that we shall have to do without. The Select Committee on Defence went part of the way with the Secretary of State in acknowledging
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that the problems of the defence budget are a consequence of general pressure on public spending and not of the Trident project itself. Indeed, the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), today expressed his sympathy for the project and its handling by the Secretary of State. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is no longer in the Chamber, however, as I should have liked to ask why he did not also tell the House that the Select Committee could not see how it would be possible, unless economic conditions improved dramatically, to give top priority to the Trident programme throughout the 1980s without something else being squeezed out.
Therefore, whether one considers the matter from the point of view of the Services, the Select Committee or even the Secretary of State's open Government document, one is left with the inescapable conclusion that equipment programmes are likely to be displaced in terms of time, quality or quantity, or even lost altogether. For the same reason, new projects will be very difficult to consider. The issue is therefore not so much, as I have been arguing, what will have to be forgone to make way for Trident, as what can be accommodated in the light of what is known about probable financial constraints and the continued assignment of high priority to Trident. When one considers the defence scene internationally and, because of the inevitable repercussive effects, within the Alliance and also nationally both in this country and in the United States, and when one recalls the dramatic changes that have occurred on both sides of the Iron Curtain, as well as in the Alliance and in our own defence budget, one is bound to ponder on the very tight room for manoeuvre that the Secretary of State will have in the next three or four years.
Not only has America locked us into the programme. The Secretary of State is now in danger of locking our own defence spending into an immovable posture. At the last meeting of the Select Committee on Defence, the Secretary of State accepted that there were opportunity costs in procurement projects forgone and capabilities lost, and that money spent on Trident could not be spent on other desirable force improvements. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, East reminded us, the Secretary of State refuses to be drawn on those opportunity costs. Indeed, he gives the impression not just to the Select Committee but to others who watch his proceedings that the Department has not even begun to explore those costs, which surprises even those who count themselves among its friends. It may be argued that those procurement costs will not all peak at the same time, and I understand why the Secretary of State cannot accept the arguments of critics such as Mr. David Greenwood of Aberdeen university that there will be need to be major readjustments in one of Britain's major contributions to NATO. Nevertheless, the Secretary of State is leaving himself very little room for movement.
One reduction in capability which may result from the Government's plans has already been noted. This concerns the nuclear-powered attack submarine fleet—the SSNs. With Trident boats building at Barrow, it is difficult to see how Vickers can maintain the current SSN build as well as putting in hand the current 2400 class submarine. The Secretary of State well knows that even the SSNs cannot be maintained. He talks about SSN No. 17, but he has not got it yet and there seems little prospect that he will, unless a new facility is laid down at Vickers. He knows that

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Vickers will not undertake that without assistance from the Government, and he knows that he will not get the funding from the Treasury.
This must be of even greater concern when one bears in mind that the United States Navy considers that its own SSN force is under stress. Therefore, we are acutely short of hunter killer submarines on both sides of the Atlantic. Yet the Secretary of State intends to throw the main weight of our ASW operational capability on the hunter killer submarines and maritime patrol aircraft in the new mix, with the aid of the barrier defences in the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom gap and with the aid also of underwater detection.
Hon. Members will recall what my right hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, East said about the advantage—contrary to the Secretary of State's argument. The acquisition now of Trident by the Americans and the latest Delta class by the Russians means that neither country has to stray very far from its homeland. The latest Delta class submarines will presumably conceal themselves under the ice. They do not have to penetrate the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom gap. That means that the gap is unlikely to be maintained at the high level of efficiency that it has been in recent years.
Therefore, I hope that the Secretary of State is aware of the high-risk strategy that he is undertaking in throwing the main emphasis of ASW operational capability on the SSNs and MPA of which we are in short supply, and on the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom gap, especially as he seems to be taking steps to cut the surface fleet and the ASW capability on which we have come to depend in recent years. That is a high-risk strategy, and if it does not come off there will be a lowering of the nuclear threshold, not merely in relation to reinforcement and supply and therefore in and around the sealanes of communication, but in the central region of Europe for which the reinforcement and supply are intended.
Equally disturbing was the Secretary of State's justification at his recent meeting with the Defence Select Committee for more sea-room for Britain's sea-launched ballistic missile force on the ground that
"the vulnerability to the Soviet submarine capability is likely to increase".
It is. The right hon. Gentleman knows that and I know that. Why, then, is he taking a chance on our ASW operational capability especially in that area where Soviet anti-submarine as well as submarine capability may soon be enhanced in the Eastern Atlantic for which Britain has a NATO command responsibility?
Of course, the Soviet maritime threat is growing and could yet become critical. Given the ever expanding Soviet fleet—surface fleet as well as submarines—why in Heaven's name is the Secretary of State undertaking such a fundamental shift in the balance of British naval forces; and taking a chance with this high-risk strategy? The changes will limit sharply Britain's naval strategy to one of reliance on strategic nuclear weapons and limited conventional capability and even non-conventional capability to help defend the North Atlantic sealanes.
The assumption behind the changes seems to be that ASW could be more cost-effective if conducted by a combination of nuclear submarines and maritime patrol aircraft. I have reminded the Secretary of State of the risk that he is running in that matter. The right hon. Gentleman
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may also feel that surface warships are no longer adequately defendable, that SACEUR must receive priority over SACLANT or that a short war is the most likely of an unlikely range of scenarios. Anyone who reads the speeches of the Secretary of State since he was appointed will get that impression, especially as he cautioned the House a year ago against thinking that the maritime scene in a future time of tension or worse is the one with which we are likely to be familiar from our experience in the war. Of course, it will not be the same, and I hope that the Secretary of State was not trying to give us the impression that, should the worst happen, the war will be short. As I have pointed out to the House, once we start thinking of a short war we have lost it. In any event, he will no doubt recall the words of Caspar Weinberger, his opposite number in Washington, who said in May last year that if his country and its allies valued their freedom they must be able to defend themselves in
"Wars of any size and shape. … and in any region where we have vital interests".
There is also the question of offset. The Secretary of State, in his recent evidence to the Select Committee as well as in his last statement to the House, held out prospects which must be debatable, to say the least. The record so far on rationalisation, standardisation and interoperability, as well as on the two-way street, is extremely disappointing. The Secretary of State must know that, but he seems to put a gloss on it.
The hon. Member for Woking, who talked about an exchange of letters with Senator John Tower, must know that the reality is different from what the Secretary of State claims. The present imbalance is about 3:1 against the United Kingdom and there is no prospect of improving on that ratio. In respect of Europe the ratio is 20:1.
Even if British firms get an opportunity to bid for business on the American missile programme their chances of getting much of a return cannot be rated as anything but dismal. What has been done by the hon. Member for Woking has also been done by other hon. Members with their opposite numbers in Washington in recent years.
Trident II needs to be rigorously examined against the background of the Alliance's strategy and objectives. We have already seen that the opportunity costs could lead to a disjointed and illogical refashioning of Britain's conventional contribution to the alliance. It will be determined increasingly by budgetary pressure rather than by operational means.
However, deterrence is all important. We know that it depends on a flexible response, which means conveying to the Russians that there is no scenario, whether of a long or a short war, that they can pursue with advantage. Trident II in the possession of Britain will add nothing to flexible response, and the cuts in surface ships strike at the other end of that flexible response spectrum, as well as at the maritime role to which Britain is historically bound.
If the division of tasks within NATO means anything it must mean the United Kingdom enhancing its maritime capability rather than duplicating United States nuclear capacity.
There are grave dangers if, at the present juncture, we fail to read our priorities aright. We may feel that we are good at everything—for the most part we are—but we must concentrate on that for which, by temperament, experience and geography, we, of all members of the Alliance, are uniquely capable—the maritime effort.

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We ought not to require the recurrent problem of the Falkland Islands—if the Secretary of State checks with the Department he will find that this is not the first time that we have had problems in that area—to remind us that maritime surveillance and policing patrols—in short, the type of maritime presence that only surface ships can provide—are vital, not only to the West, but to the Third world countries from which we obtain so many of our raw materials.
The freedom of the sea is vital, for it ensures that the industrialised West and free world nations, particularly the poorer Third world nations, separated by vast distances, can maintain the economic, import—export contacts which are so necessary for the existence of both. That is a role and a peaceful contribution to which the Royal Navy is particularly well fitted, by both history and performance. Why, then, is the Secretary of State cutting the surface fleet?
I conclude by restating my belief that Britain's acquisition of Trident is both unnecessary and undesirable. It is unnecessary because it does not replace Polaris, but presupposes a new role, for which Lord Carver, a former Chief of the Defence Staffs, had difficulty in thinking of credible scenarios. It is undesirable because it must present a continuing threat to the effective performance of Britain's assigned conventional role within the Alliance and because Britain's acquisition at this stage of a counter force, rather than counter strike, capability must have a destabilising effect on START, which are necessary if we are to achieve a substantial reduction in missiles between the super powers. That runs counter, to say the least, to the spirit of non-proliferation and the comprehensive test ban treaty. Surely our role must be a redoubling of effort on behalf of multilateral, international nuclear disarmament.
7.10 pm
Mr. Neville Trotter: I am sure that all those who live in Britain wish that we lived in a world engaged in active disarmament. Unfortunately, the Government and House must address themselves to the world in which we actually live. The world outside, to the East and behind the Iron Curtain, is very unpleasant.
Soviet military power continues to grow. No allocation of resources is being debated in any public forum in the Soviet Union. There are no pressures or lobbies in Russia for less to be spent on nuclear weapons or, indeed, conventional ones. We live in such a world, with a super power succeeding in only one direction—ever-increasing military strength. We know from the debate that two new ballistic missiles have been added to the Soviet strength every week for the past 15 years. Those weapons tend to be of gigantic size. They are enormous. The SS18's warhead is estimated to be about 20 megatonnes. The size is almost beyond belief when one remembers that the warhead used at Hiroshima was about 20, 000 tonnes and not 20 million tonnes. On land, about 385, 000 men in the Soviet Union man those ballistic missiles. At sea, there is a large fleet of submarines. The newest types—Typhoons—are far greater and more powerful than those in the West. They carry the largest sea-going ballistic missiles—SSN20s.
Trident is no more awful a weapon system than Polaris or the V-bomber before it. They are all awful weapons. It is tragic we must have them, but I am convinced we must.
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This is the third generation of weapons. First, were the V-bombers in the 1950s, when I was in the Air Force. Secondly, Polaris was introduced in the 1960s. What has changed since that time? Soviet military power certainly has changed. It has got greater, if anything, and has certainly not decreased. Our national wealth has not declined. We are far better off today than we were in the 1950s and 1960s. We can better afford such weapons today than we could in those years. All that has changed is the Labour Party. What a change there has been in it, from the days when Labour leaders understood the realities of the international scene and supported the nuclear deterrent for Britain.
Members of the Labour Party, of course, recently made a visit to Moscow so that they could influence the Soviet leadership. That made not the slightest impact on the views of the hard men who run the Kremlin. There was not the slightest indication that they would respond to any actions of the sort encouraged by the Labour Party in Britain.
The Labour Party in Newcastle is distributing through the letter boxes a leaflet which welcomes the massive growth of the nuclear disarmament movement in Britain and Europe, which it says has begun the fight for peace. I am sure that members of the CND are sincere in their aims. What a pity that there is no equivalent trying to win the fight for peace in the Soviet Union, for that country is the cause of all our anxieties.
The Socialist Government in France, in their economic course, seem to be falling into the same mistakes as those made by Socialist Governments in Britain. The French Socialist Prime Minister is, however, steadfastly going ahead with the French nuclear deterrent, spending a great deal more of his country's money on it than we plan to spend here. In discussions with NATO allies I have discovered that they all welcome our Government's decision to go ahead with the Trident programme.
Some hon. Members suggested that the cruise missile would be the solution and that such a missile is much cheaper and is a soft option. It is not surprising that the Social Democratic Party should be foremost in putting forward the cruise missile, because that whole party is a soft option. It would be easy to tell the people in Tynemouth that there is a much cheaper alternative. They would believe that, because they would like to.
Would the Russians and their leaders in the Kremlin believe it? They would not believe it for one moment. They know perfectly well how effective or ineffective these various missile systems are. They know perfectly well that the cruise missile would not be sufficient to overcome their defences. It would not act as a deterrent. The whole point of a nuclear system is the perception of the other side. They would not perceive the cruise missile as being effective. It would not act as a deterrent and the money would be spent to no good.
I shall not delay the House by discussing for long the technicalities of cruise missiles. However, from discussions on both sides of the Atlantic, I know that whatever the capability of the cruise missile, and however much it may be developed with increasing technology, the ballistic missile with the developments that will come to it will remain the more effective weapon system.
Each of the ballistic missiles has a number of awesome warheads. That is an important factor. One cannot equate one ballistic with one cruise missile. One must equate many cruise missiles with each ballistic missile. Cruise

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missiles are also more easily deterred by defences, shot down and destroyed. Therefore, many more cruise missiles would be required and, at the end of the day, they would be far less effective.
Reference was made to the Americans adding cruise missiles at possibly a strategic level. As I understand it, the scenario envisaged is that those cruise missiles travelling much more slowly would arrive in Russia several hours after the ballistic missiles. A different scenario would face them than our cruise missiles would face on their own. I am convinced that it is a delusion to think that there is any soft option and any practicable cost-saving by arming us with cruise instead of ballistic missiles. Cruise missiles would not only not be technically effective, but we would need many more hulls to carry them in adequate numbers.
There is a concept that one can fire salvoes of large numbers of cruise missiles off each ship. That is not technically practicable, for various reasons. One would therefore need to have a very much larger number of submarines to carry the cruise missiles, which would obviously increase the cost.
To say that we could use our existing submarines for that role is wholly counter to the argument that most people put forward. If one is putting strategic deterrents into conventional submarines—hunter-killer submarines—they are no longer available in the hunter-killer role. Therefore, one has reduced the conventional strength of NATO at a stroke. Nobody could foresee that one would send one's strategic nuclear submarines to the North Cape to try to deter Soviet surface squadrons.
Something was said from the Opposition Front Bench about the capability of Trident and that it has a much greater accuracy than previous sea-based systems. That was achieved through the vast capabilities of the United States. We do not need that greater accuracy. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that it was simply a question of cost: it is cheaper for us to acquire a more sophisticated weapon than we need than it would be to acquire any adequate alternative.
Therefore, Trident D5 has a capability beyond that which we need. Perhaps it is a bonus, because some targets could be added which would need to be attacked with great accuracy. Basically, however, we are not seeking accuracy and it is nonsense to suggest that Britain, in any way, would fire first. There are no circumstances in which we would want to fire first. Apart from anything else, it would be ludicrous, because there are so many missile sites in the Soviet Union. There is no way that our Trident capability could destroy them all. Therefore, the whole argument is ridiculous.
On costs, there is no doubt that many Government Members are concerned about the reduction in the conventional strength of the Royal Navy. However, we must be realistic about this. Figures for equipment cost in the well-put-together "glossy" White Paper on Trident, on which I congratulate my right hon. Friend and his colleagues, state that the total spending on Trident will be no more than 3 per cent. of the defence budget over the 15-year build-up period. We should not obtain a significant and substantial increase in conventional naval strength with that 3 per cent. It is sometimes overlooked that one has the running costs of the fleet to bear in mind as well as the capital cost. I should have been happy if my
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right hon. Friend had managed to persuade his right hon. Friends that there should be a higher sum in total spent on defence. However, that was not to be and I must accept the division of the cake. To spend 3 per cent. on the nuclear deterrent is not, in my view, a wrong allocation of resources.
It would help if we could be told, in sterling, how much is to be spent on equipment for conventional maritime systems between 1980 and 1995, which is the period covered by the Trident programme. I suspect that the figure is enormous. It would help to restore balance to the argument if the figure were made available. The graphs at the back of the report show percentages. The figure of £7 billion is being bandied about for Trident as a gigantic sum. Unfortunately, the sums expended on all equipment are very large. Tornado is to be £11 billion, and Trident £7 billion. I should like the cost of all the conventional maritime systems to be expressed in £ sterling for comparative purposes.
I welcome the fact that parts for the United States Trident system are to be built in the United Kingdom. I know that my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State are well aware of the need for success in this direction. I hope that members of the United States Administration and Congress will ponder the matter. It is important for the United Kingdom-American alliance that it is seen to be a two-way street. Too often in the past it has been a lane in one direction and a broad highway in the other. One well understands the reasons. An imbalance is almost inevitable, but I hope that our friends on the other side of the Atlantic will realise that it is important for American firms to take the opportunity to acquire as much equipment as possible in this country. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary already has under his belt the success of selling Rapier to the Americans. I hope that he will have equal success in this new direction.
All war is dreadful. It is dreadful whether a person is killed by an arrow, lance, sword, bullet, bomb, shell, shrapnel or a nuclear weapon. The older methods are equally cruel. It is worth pondering that in the last war the human race killed 50 million of its own kind without nuclear weapons. We are all against war and spending money on weapons, especially when there are many other strong and valid calls on our money. Our aim must be peace with freedom. To achieve that we need strength. We cannot deter a nuclear power with only conventional weapons. Our people wish to live in peace. The Government's Trident programme is the best way to ensure that.
7.23 pm
Mr. Stanley Newens: Like the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter) I, too, accept that the aim of any British Government must be to maintain and safeguard the security of our people. There is undoubtedly a nuclear threat. The question is whether the possession of a strategic nuclear capability is the best defence.
We must consider the question not only in terms of the ability that possession of a nuclear deterrent gives us to hit an enemy, but in terms of the cost in vulnerability. Possession of an independent nuclear deterrent and the deployment of United States nuclear deterrents on our soil mean that a potential adversary, in accordance with the deterrent theory, has to counter the possibility that those weapons will be used against him. He does that by targeting nuclear weapons on our homeland to make

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certain that if ever our weapons are used, accidentally or by design, we shall be destroyed. The price that we pay for Trident, and cruise for that matter, is to have nuclear weapons permanently targeted on us.
The new Trident deterrent is extremely accurate and enormously destructive. As has been pointed out, it is capable of knocking out nuclear silos. If, during a period of tension, a potential adversary believes that he is threatened by a first-strike attack—even though we do not possess sufficient Trident submarines to carry out such an attack our capability could be viewed together with the American Trident capability—we are in danger of having the nuclear weapons targeted on us detonated.
Whatever destructive power Trident endows us with, therefore, it renders us liable to a nuclear attack on an unparalleled scale. Such a disaster could occur through a dispute in which we had no direct part. As everyone knows, if nuclear weapons are once unleashed, the Soviet Union would not stop to consider where they originated from. We should be a direct target. For a nebulous deterrence we are placing our country at enormous risk. Those who argue for a deterrent have never faced that fact as fully as they should.
In essence, the argument advanced by those in favour of a nuclear deterrent is the same as that put forward in some countries for policemen or citizens to carry firearms. If some carry firearms, others use that as an argument to show why they themselves should carry them. The more widespread the possession of arms, the greater likelihood there is of people becoming innocent victims of gunfights. Contrary to the arguments advanced from the Government Benches that to possess nuclear weapons gives us greater security, I believe that it undermines our security.
Furthermore, as a number of my hon. Friends have pointed out at length, the fact that we have Trident means that we can no longer afford to make provision against other threats. In 1981–82 our defence programme provides for the expenditure of £12, 300 million, representing 5·2 per cent. of GNP. The Government postulate that the expenditure should grow by 3 per cent. per annum until the mid-1980s. When they announced their decision on Trident, the cost of the C4 system was estimated at £5, 000 million. The D5 will cost at least £7, 500 million. The chances are that the eventual cost will be £10, 000 million or more.
Despite the fact that the cost will be spread over a number of years and the peak expenditure years will not be reached until the latter part of this decade, the decision to go for the D5 means a considerable addition to our armaments expenditure. It means that, in the peak years, the Trident programme, now the D5, will pre-empt an increased part of the defence equipment budget and so limit expenditure on conventional forces more than previously envisaged, unless we expand the global armaments budget.
This country cannot bear an ever-escalating burden of military expenditure. If Trident goes ahead, it will mean ever-increasing cuts elsewhere in conventional expenditure. The cuts in the Navy and the Air Force in recent months will need to be stepped up considerably if the commitment to Trident is continued. In the long run, that will mean that our Armed Forces will be incapable of dealing with comparatively minor threats.
There are many examples in history of Governments which possessed immense apparent military power, but which collapsed without even a struggle. I shall quote the
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recent example of the regime of the Shah of Iran. Everyone imagined that that was a country with tremendous strength, because of the build up of its arms. However, it collapsed comparatively easily when a threat arose internally. For us in Britain to imagine that the country will be strengthened by a weapon that is far more accurate and destructive and capable of much longer-range destruction than the task for which the Government Front Bench says it is intended is sheer and utter nonsense. The burden of the defence programme will weaken the country and create tremendous difficulties for any future Government, particularly the Governments who are in power in the latter part of the decade.
For cost reasons, sooner or later we shall have to face the inevitability of becoming a non-nuclear power, just as we have had to come to grips with other realities in the latter half of the twentieth century. It would be far more sensible if we were to face that position now rather than hide our heads in the sand and pretend that we can continue to expend the vast amounts of money that are necessary to retain an unnecessary nuclear deterrent.
In the long run, humanity cannot survive if the nuclear arms race continues. I deplore the policies of all countries that are committed to increasing nuclear weapons—the USSR as much as the United States and this country. It is unfair for people to say that those of us who are associated with the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament confine our criticisms to one side. We are opposed to the Soviet nuclear arms build up as well as to the build up in the West or in any other sphere.
I believe that our action in moving towards nuclear disarmament should be linked to the objective of securing agreement on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons on nuclear-free zones, and on exerting pressure on the super powers to reach agreement on strategic nuclear weapons. I strongly support and applaud the decision of my right hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) today to speak out against Trident as a step towards that goal. Those of us who are fortunate enough to be alive today in this generation have a right to defend our way of life, but we have no moral right to threaten the destruction of civilisation and humanity.
The Opposition's pledge to cancel Trident will be seen by increasing numbers of people in this country and further afield as a positive stand for peace and sanity. In the long run, unless there are people prepared to take that positive stand, humanity will be doomed.
7.35 pm
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: Since the House has been in existence, it has not had the privilege of hearing from Eve. However, I believe that she has a contribution to make to the debate, however long after the event. She taught us that, once the apple from the Tree of Knowledge has been bitten, it can never be put back again.
One of the greatest fallacies in the disarmament case of the Campaign for Nuclear Disamament is the belief that, even if both sides rid themselves of their nuclear weapons, they would not scramble to produce them again as quickly as possible and use them first in a conventional war. There was such a fallacy among the people who believed that, by burning Galileo's books, the world would once more be the centre around which the sun revolved. That fallacy is implicit in the nonsense that the CND spreads among a somewhat gullible public.

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The knowledge of how to make nuclear weapons is a fact, and will be so for all time. Therefore, the question that we must ask ourselves is: how do we prevent a war between the powers of the East and West? It is not: should we have nuclear weapons? It is the possession of nuclear weapons that rules out Russia inaugurating that war. As long as the NATO alliance possesses and is prepared to use strategic nuclear weapons, Russia will not attack it. However, were this to be so, as long as America alone had a monopoly of the possession of nuclear weapons in the West, so long would Russian policy be aimed at driving a wedge between America and the rest of the world, so that she could hope to overrun the rest of the Western world without bringing upon herself the holocaust of the American use of nuclear weapons. Ignoring that fact is the fallacy and rotten core of CND's case.
Those who describe themselves as a "peace movement" are those who make war much more likely, including a nuclear war. This cannot be repeated too often. There is no means by which the knowledge of how to produce nuclear weapons can ever be taken away from mankind, nor is there any way in which Russia can be prevented from using that knowledge. Moreover, the situation is worse than that. Russia, being the dictatorship that it is, with a controlled press—which it has—has a much better opportunity to manufacture nuclear weapons secretly than any democracy with a free press. That must also be a self-evident truth.
Therefore, the net effect of the self-styled "peace movement"—the net effect of the CND—is to bring war much further into probability. In so far as anything is certain, that would be a war that would end, if it did not begin, in the use of nuclear weapons.
History shows that dictatorships possess certain advantages in military terms over democracies. There is also another factor. It has been the historic position of democracies that they start weaker in war. With time—if time is vouchsafed to them and they have sufficient time to harness the energies of the free people—they have mercifully overcome the dictatorship that they have fought—but only just. If the war against Germany had lasted very much longer, with Germany possessing a new generation of U-boats with oxygen-enriched fuel, and if it had not believed that we had a nerve-gas too, whereas in fact we had DDT, it is far from certain what the outcome of the European war would have been. Do no let each generation in turn have to pay in massive blood for learning lessons which should have been learnt. It is the duty of the House to remind the public what those major lessons are.
I end as I began, by saying that we cannot destroy human knowledge. That is the most important single lesson. Secondly, an organised State will not knowingly and willingly destroy itself. Soviet Russia holds in military subjection countries whose independence it guaranteed by treaty. I wish that the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) were in his place, because the list includes Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Eastern Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Bulgaria, and countries which Russia has invaded, such as Afghanistan. None of these countries had the capacity to defend itself with nuclear weapons and not one belonged to an alliance which possessed them. All these countries have suffered the consequent fate.
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Soviet Russia has four times the number of tanks that the Western world possesses. They are poised to attempt to sweep through Europe and it is hoped by Soviet Russia that they will do so before America can move its conventional land forces by air or by sea. Russia has nearly five times the number of conventional submarines that Germany had U-boats when it went to war and nearly starved Britain into submission. This is the reality of the conventional sphere to which the CND invites us to return. That is not a prospect of peace. That is not a prospect of security for our children. Let us remember these truths and impart them to others who do not have knowledge of them. That is our duty as a House of Commons and it is one which we should remember as we vote in favour of the Government's motion.
7.43 pm
Mr. Gavin Strang: I am sure that the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) will understand if I do not take up his remarks. Time is limited and many hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to participate in the debate. If what the hon. Gentleman said is true, it seems that we are all doomed and that the nuclear arms build-up will continue remorselessly until eventually we go into the nuclear abyss.
I shall address myself firstly and primarily to nuclear escalation, which is implicit in the decision to buy Trident II (D5) as opposed to Trident I (C4). Suffice it to say that I am against both systems. The Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement, who is to reply, must face the central issue that Trident II is a counter-force weapon. It is being developed by the United States specifically to have the capability to destroy Soviet missiles in hardened silos. That is why it is being developed as a replacement for Trident I (C4). In a letter to me on 22 February, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces stated:
"The Americans have stated publicly that while they do not consider the Trident I missile (C4) suitable for an attack on land based missiles and hardened silos they believe that Trident II (D5) will be sufficiently accurate to attack any target in the Soviet Union including missile silos."
The Secretary of State for Defence, in reply to a question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George), when the right hon. Gentleman made his statement on Trident II, stated:
"As for the hard kill capability, it is certainly true that D5 is a more accurate missile than C4 and much more accurate than Polaris. It can knock out a specific target in a way that Polaris could not. But that is not why we want it."—[Official Report, 11 March 1982; Vol. 19, c. 985.]
It is clear that we are talking about a counter-weapon, a weapon designed to destroy Soviet missiles. Any school child will understand that that can be achieved only if it is fired first. Counter-force undermines deterrence. It is all very well for Conservative Members to say "It is not our intention to fire it first". That may be so, but we cannot expect the Soviet Union to make that assumption. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens) said, it is not on for hon. Members to say that because we shall have only a limited number of submarines this will carry no great threat to the Soviet Union. Although it is an independent nuclear deterrent, we all know that it is part of the NATO system.
There is a real fear in the Soviet Union that the United States is building up a massive first-strike capability, and it is no use pretending otherwise. The House must

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recognise that we are talking about perhaps the most important development in British defence policy since we first acquired nuclear weapons. The build-up on the part of the United States and the Soviet Union has given a new upsurge to the campaign against nuclear armaments throughout Europe. That is why we have seen massive demonstrations in the major capitals of Europe. The great mass of young people, especially in Britain, are not prepared to go down the road that the Government seem to be preparing for them. Scotland is no exception to that. Indeed, this decision means that Glasgow and West Central Scotland is being compulsorily conscripted into the front line of the nuclear madness of the British and American Governments. That is why the issue figured so prominently in the Hillhead by-election.
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) is not in his place. How can he reconcile with his argument the stance that the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) took in the Hillhead by-election? How can he balance his right hon. Friend's hard-line opposition to Trident with his decision not to support the Opposition's amendment? The amendment calls for the cancellation of Trident and nothing else. I put it to the SDP that the decision not to vote with the Opposition is a betrayal of what the right hon. Member for Hillhead said to the electors before the election.
There is a massive accumulation of opposition to the Trident system throughout Scotland. I have no doubt that that will be reflected by the thousands who turn out to participate in the demonstration that is being organised in Glasgow on Saturday.
Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith: The hon. Gentleman is a responsible Member and he has referred to "massive opposition" to Trident in some parts of Scotland. Will he confirm or deny the newspaper report that is attributed to him that if the Government went ahead with Trident he would recommend workers in the factories that would contribute to the Trident programme to take civil action against the Government's policy?
Mr. Strang: I must make it plain to the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith) that I believe that it will never come to that, because the only party in the House that is committed to Trident is the Conservative Party. I earnestly hope that a Labour Party will be elected which will cancel Trident, but I do not rule out any of the remarks that I made in Perth at the annual Scottish Labour Party conference. If the hon. Gentleman is interested in what I said, I hope that he will take the trouble to consider everything that I said. I withdraw nothing from my speech.
The opposition in Scotland is reflected in the stance taken by the local planning authority, Dumbarton district council. It has made it clear that it is opposed to the development. I understand that the Ministry of Defence has not yet referred the issue to the Scottish Office. It must do so in due course, but I suspect that it will not reach agreement with Dumbarton district council, which is responsible for planning at Coulport on the Clyde. Therefore, the Secretary of State for Scotland must make the decision about whether there will be a public inquiry into the matter.
There will be a deep sense of resentment and outrage in Scotland if there is not a proper public inquiry. We realise that there is no statutory requirement for a public
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inquiry, but this issue merits a planning inquiry commission. We are talking about considerations of a national and regional importance and about a host of criteria that should be taken into account when the Secretary of State makes the decision about whether there should be a planning inquiry commission under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972. I remind the House that the Secretary of State for Scotland, to his credit, conducted a public inquiry into the extension of the NATO base at Stornoway. If there were a case for an inquiry at Stornoway, there must be a case for an inquiry into this development.
As the only Scottish Labour Member who will have had the opportunity to take part in the debate, may I serve notice on the Government that the people of Scotland are deeply incensed by this decision. It has led to a massive upsurge in support for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and I hope that the Government understand that the proposal will be resisted all the way.
7.52 pm
Sir Russell Fairgrieve: I agree with one thing that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) said. Time does not permit me to follow his arguments, although I would have dearly wished to take up his argument about what Scottish people believe and what was said at Hillhead, because I have a completely different interpretation of it.
Both during the debate and earlier I have wondered where is the change in maintaining a commitment that has stood for more than 30 years. Is the commitment changing, or is it a question of cost, because for over 30 years—which includes eight British Governments, four Conservative and four Labour—there has been virtual bipartisan agreement on the maintenance of our independent nuclear deterrent. The Labour Party has been inclined to say what it would do when it returns to Government and has then not done so. I imagine that it would be the same in the future.
The cost argument cannot be upheld. We have been told time and time again that it costs 3 per cent. of the defence budget. Any idea that 3 per cent. of the defence budget is eating into ships for the Navy or tanks for the Army is no longer feasible, and Labour Members must know that by now.
I accept the fact, leaving out the political views of others, that there is bound to be genuine fear. Everyone, unless he or she is not human, is scared of war and what it means, especially a war that none of us can possibly escape.
I remember well about 20 years ago, when the first nuclear disarmament campaign started, the late Iain Macleod saying in reply to a question that, as everyone else, he wished to see an end to nuclear weapons, all weapons and war, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) rightly said, one cannot change human nature and one cannot disinvent weapons that have been invented. Iain Macleod said that a million years ago man fought with his hands. Then one man picked up a stone, threw it at another and became the victor. Then spears were invented, then the bow and arrow, gun powder and bombs. Now the human race has invented a weapon that can never be used. He left the remainder to our imagination. That is why it is implicit that, especially in Britain, we maintain a nuclear deterrent.

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Having said that about the worries of ordinary people, the position changes slightly with those who have political views about the matter. Apart from the Government, we have a very wide range of such from both parts of the Labour Party through the Social Democratic Party to the Liberal Party and the Scottish National Party. It ranges roughly from unilateral disarmament—both nuclear and conventional—through a host of half-way positions, to those brave spirits in the Opposition who will call for an independent nuclear deterrent provided that it is out of date.
I have no hestitation this evening in supporting the Government on this matter. It is not a case of saying that people are hypocritical or misguided. It is the first duty of any Government to provide for the defence of the realm. I have never known of a time in our 2, 000 years of recorded history when we decided to defend ourselves, but only with the second best weapons. Britain has always endeavoured to have the best for its people. When the machine gun arrived, we did not say that we would stick to single repeater rifles. The present proposal is merely the enhancement and development of a commitment that we have had for more than 30 years. We owe it to the British people.
Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): Order. May I commend the previous five speakers, all of whom have restricted themselves to 10 minutes or less? Theirs is an example which, if followed, will enable more hon. Members to catch my eye.
7.57 pm
Mr. Stan Thorne: We have heard from various hon. Members that Trident II(D5) is a first-strike weapon. It has 14 warheads with an increasing ability to hit targets directly. Its aim is obviously to destroy nuclear silos on enemy territory and to avoid retaliation.
The Government appear to have accepted the American belief in the possibility of a nuclear victory. That is contrary to a resolution passed in Washington earlier this year. It is worth repeating that resolution in full:
"Whereas there is worldwide increasing anxiety of the possibility of large-scale nuclear warfare, and
Whereas recent studies have shown that nuclear warfare would inevitably cause diath, desease, and human suffering of epidemic proportion without any adequate medical intervention possible, and
Whereas severe trauma to biological and ecological systems would be extended far beyond the immediate bomb impact areas by virtue of transport of lethal radioactive debris by air and water, and
Whereas the only effective impediment to such an impending epidemic is the prevention of nuclear warfare,
Therefore be it resolved that the Council of the AAAS support national and international efforts directed towards the prevention of nuclear warfare, and
Be it further resolved that the Council of the AAAS supports Concurrent Resolution 44 which was recently submitted to the United States Senate by Senate Majority Leader Howard Baker of Tennessee. That resolution 'expresses the sense of Congress that the United States should not base its policies on the belief that it can limit, survive, or win a nuclear war'."war'."
I read out that resolution because hon. Members, particularly Opposition Members, should remember that people in the United States are also fighting to prevent the nuclear holocaust that we have spoken of in recent years. The Government have rejected a policy of peace and that is the meaning of their decision to go ahead with Trident.
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Why? Have they gone ahead with that decision because the preparations for nuclear war are highly profitable for a few multinational corporations? Alternatively, are they motivated by the belief that it is better to be dead than red? The Secretary of State referred to the Communist leadership in Russia that we may see tomorrow and felt that it would be in some way different from the present leadership. He spoke about Russia's determination to promote its interests by any means. He went on to mention playing chess and spoke of blackmailers, aggressors and threats. However, he was really saying that Britain needs a greater nuclear capability so that it can prevent the possibility of social change.
With that aim in mind the United States of America has been involved in wars in Chile, El Salvador and Vietnam. We talk about the United States of America as being the super power that is presumably 100 per cent. on our side, but hon. Members should bear in mind an article that appeared in the New Statesman on 26 March 1982. It is entitled:
"Trident: US insists that Britain buys blind."
What does that mean? It states:
"The Ministry of Defence confirmed this week that they had not seen it and did not know of its contents."
The article refers to a document whose formal title is "Naval Operations Instruction OPNA—VINST 5510." I have a copy of it in my hand. It refers to "general restrictions" and to the agreement about the purchase of the alternative to the Polaris missile. The document is issued by the Navy Department of the United States of America. It states:
"In the implementation of this delegation, DIRSS PO WASH DC will take particular precautions to insure that information in the following areas is not disclosed:"—
that means, not disclosed to the United Kingdom—

"a. Naval Nuclear Propulsion Information, classified or unclassified.

b. Strategic and operational planning information.

c. Tactical doctrine and information on the operational employment of the SSBN including command and control methods.

d. Communications doctrine, procedures, security and effectiveness."

Various other aspects of the so-called agreement between Britain and the United States of America on the purchase of the alternative to Polaris are contained in that official document. As I have pointed out, the Ministry of Defence confirmed only this week that it has not seen it and did not know of its contents. That does not suggest the type of relationship that we could accept, given the earlier statements today about the relationship between the United States of America and Britain over Trident and cooperation in its use.
We should refuse to supply the United States of America with our surplus plutonium. I hope that the Minister will tell us whether the Government have decided to make such a supply available. We should cancel Trident and reject cruise missiles. We should tell Washington of our firm intention not to participate further in a nuclear arms race and we should phase out unilaterally all involvement in nuclear weaponry as quickly as possible. I see that the Minister of State for the Armed Forces is sitting on the Front Bench. Recently, I read in my local paper that he had made a speech on the subject of Trident. He is reported to have said:
"Trident will safeguard the British people and their children into the distant uncertainties of the next century."

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He had not an iota of evidence to support that claim. I suggest that is a fraud and a deception. Until there is a major move towards disarmament and the establishment of peace negotiations—one wonders about the prospects of that, given the representatives that we shall send to the disarmament conference in June—we cannot hope to protect the interests of our chidren in the next century.
I hope that the youth of today will rise up in anger against the decision on Trident and that the Christians within our midst will realise that this is also their fight.
8.8 pm
Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith: If the Christians rose up, many of them would put forward a different argument from that espoused by the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Thorne), because if they supported the hon. Gentleman they would be writing their prescription for death. The argument about Trident is not a Christian argument anyway. However, I cannot go into the details of that point, because many hon. Members wish to speak. Let us keep Christianity and moral crusading out of this debate. The moral arguments do not lie with the Opposition, who have advanced such a stupid proposition.
Successive British Governments have thought it sensible to have a nuclear deterrent because it deters and it helps to keep the peace. It has done so. Nothing has happened to make us change our minds since Attlee put forward that argument, which has been followed by Prime Ministers since the war. Apart from the argument that it was a deterrent and would help to keep the peace, there was the strong view that we must always try our best to bring about disarmament. It is not our fault that we have not succeeded. We know where we can put the blame.
The view of Attlee's Government was also based on the premise—this was followed by other Governments—that we could not rely on the United States' guarantees for all time. There was a second premise—we heard this from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State today—that Soviet perceptions will not always lead them to conclude that the United States will always come to Europe's aid.
I want to discuss those two premises in the context of NATO 33 years on. I do so as a member of the NATO Assembly. Like other hon. Members who are also members of the Assembly, I have become vividly aware at first hand of the current strains and doubts which permeate the relationships within the NATO alliance.
For many of our European parliamentary colleagues in NATO, President Reagan's remark that he could envisage a nuclear tactical conflict in Europe without the super powers necessarily engaging in a world nuclear war was ill chosen and ill timed, to say the least. For American congressmen and senators attending the Assembly, the peace movement has seemed at worst an expression of neutralism and at best a pretty flabby response to the increasing effectiveness of Soviet military strength.
NATO has gone through crises of misunderstanding on both sides of the Atlantic before now. In my view, President Reagan is not a warmonger, hell-bent on war. There is no reason why he should sign a death warrant for 350, 000 American soldiers in Western Europe. The Governments of Western Europe are backed, thank goodness, by a majority of public opinion which still recognises the need to strengthen their armed forces and to understand the fallacies of the arguments put forward
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this afternoon by Labour Members, regurgitating the well-worn arguments of the CND. However, we cannot let discontent with the alliance rumble on.
Europe has understandably been frustrated and puzzled by the American leadership, from the vacillations of Carter to the apocalyptic pronouncements of President Reagan. Europeans—or some of them—are increasingly troubled by what they see as insipient isolationism in the United States. On the other hand, the United States and the Americans can also be puzzled by Europe, which does not always speak with one voice. The Americans that I have spoken to are discouraged by the failure of some European countries to do more to help themselves.
What has gone wrong? Have conditions changed that much? Labour Members who are opposed to a British nuclear deterrent have said this afternoon that conditions have changed, that Trident is too costly. I will not go into that argument. I believe that the Secretary of State has been frank with the House, and I believe that he has won the debate hands down. Labour Members believe that conditions have changed since the Attlee Government's decision to go ahead and make such a deterrent. I agree that some conditions have changed.
First, the United States, as we know, is now vulnerable to a Soviet nuclear attack and may be less, not more, disposed to put its own cities at risk to save Europe.
Secondly, the United States now perceives that it has military commitments well outside the NATO area to meet the emergence of the Soviet Union in the last decade as a global military power. We do not hear much of that from the CND.
Thirdly, the United States considers that Western Europe, which is relatively stronger economically compared with 33 years ago, is now more able to relieve the United States of the growing pressures involved in being the dominant member of NATO. As we know, the cost of modern equipment—be it conventional or nuclear—is prodigious. If we were to deny ourselves the nuclear weapon tomorrow, all Conservative Members know—and I believe some Labour Members also know—what huge bills we would have to face in order to build a credible conventional force against the Soviet Union.
Our allies in Western Europe—as has been confirmed by my right hon. Friend—expect and welcome the part that Britain will play, with a nuclear as well as a conventional response. If Europe is to pull its weight and get better value for money in the light of the huge costs of modern defence equipment, it must improve its method of defence procurement and collaboration. It must do that if it is to satify its people. As I said, I do not believe that by denying ourselves the Trident missile system we have in any way solved our problems.
As we look into the question of how to pool our efforts in Western Europe—and to do far better than we have been able to do through the Euro-group—inevitably the question of a European nuclear deterrent will be raised. It will not simply go away by our denying ourselves the use of a deterrent, as has been suggested this afternoon. The French—as we have been reminded by my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow)—have always seen the need for a deterrent. As he said, that recognition goes right across the political spectrum. France recognises that it own security demands that the Soviet Union must never be in

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doubt that an attack on Europe which threatened France would and could be met by a nuclear response decided by a European power.
The duplication of effort in Europe must and can be deplored, but one thing is certain. In no way shall we be able to reduce our costs and make more effective our use of resources unless, with nuclear weapons, as with others, we formulate European defence needs. That is why I hope that the NATO powers will respond to the call by the President of France.
Western European Union may not be the ideal institution in which we can solve these problems of defence policy in Europe—[Interruption.] It may or may not be the ideal institution in which to solve the problems of defence policy in Europe and of cost procurement. We all know that Europe's economic and political defence interests overlap, and our inability to reconcile those interests leads not only to higher costs but to an increasing dependence on American technology—a point made earlier today.
The Prime Minister is reported as having commented, on a visit to Brussels, that the offices of NATO and the Commission are both to be found in Brussels. Perhaps that is where the dialogue should begin. It could have a very practical impact on equipment costs. It could help to unify the discordant European voice. It could certainly make clear that war will not be less likely if we in Britain, as a European power, choose now either to reject a nuclear deterrent or to choose a nuclear weapons system which, in the eyes of the Soviet Union, is not a deterrent at all.
8.16 pm
Mr David Penhaligon: We have had a wide-ranging debate and, as is usual with debates that last a long time, the odd comment sticks in one's mind. The hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) said that one of our duties as Members of Parliament is to remind people of lessons learnt in the past. Clearly he was extrapolating that basic thesis to suggest that if one is not fully prepared for war war is likely to happen. There is an element of truth in that, of course, but one of the most obvious lessons of the past is that wars occur at intervals.
I suspect that one of the reasons why CND has as much support as it currently has is the anxiety on the part of large sections of our young community to look for a way to avoid what they see as the inevitable next war, and the inevitable use of the kind of technology now available. I do not entirely agree with the conclusions of CND as to the best way out of our dilemma, but we are unfair to that movement if we dismiss its thesis and its fears as an absolute fantasy. The fears it holds are by no means a fantasy; possibly they are a quite realistic appraisal of the future.
The Government's motion poses essentially two questions to the House. First, do we need or do we want an independent nuclear deterrent? If we get past that hurdle, the second question is whether Trident is the best buy.
The Liberal Party has always been against the independent nuclear deterrent, Polaris. Therefore, it can hardly be any great surprise to the House if we have a basic objection to the principle of an independent nuclear deterrent when we reach the next stage of technology and the possible deployment of Trident. It seems to us that
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there is little purpose in our acquiring Trident at a cost of about £8 billion if NATO really exists as a coherent unit. The alternative is that NATO no longer exists as a coherent unit. In that case, we believe that two submarines somewhere in the oceans of the world are no answer to the problems that a possible Soviet invasion could bring. The only credible reason that has been presented to the House today by those who argue that Britain should have an independent nuclear deterrent has been £8 billion insurance against the possibility of United States neutrality. There have been arguments about how long we can maintain Trident—assuming that we have it—when the United States go neutral—if they do. Clearly it will be difficult to sustain Trident if there is a sustained period of American neutrality. The Liberal Party do not see Trident as a way out of American neutrality, if it were to happen.
To the Liberal Party, the idea that there is any trembling in the Kremlin today because the British House of Commons is considering buying the Trident missile system is a fantasy of the first order. In our view, it is a decision that will hardly be discussed in the upper echelons of the Soviet system. It is not a significant decision, nor is it a significant contribution to Western defence.
I want to make it clear that the Liberal Party supports NATO. We accept that that involves a willingness to deploy and use nuclear weapons in certain situations—God forbid that such situations ever arise. The Liberal Party is not unilateralist, but we cannot see any situation in which Trident or the independent nuclear deterrent may be used.
Mr. Critchley: In what sort of circumstances would the Liberal Party be prepared to use nuclear weapons? Will the hon. Gentleman speculate on that matter?
Mr. Penhaligon: Most of us have more sense than to run down that path, but we accept that until some serious negotiations take place and until there is a general de-escalation of armaments in the world, the Western NATO alliance must offer a nuclear deterrent to the Soviet Union. However, it does so only as a unit, and Britain cannot do so in splendid isolation. The only argument that has been presented today for Britain buying Trident is the fantasy of Great Britain Limited on its own against the Soviet Union, and that we do not see as a practical proposition.
The Liberal Party welcomes the Geneva talks. We are by no means as pessimistic about their outcome as are other quarters of the House. There are enormous pressures on both sides of the super power argument to make real progress in this respect. This year we have read that the Soviet Union is forced to import incredible quantities of food just to keep its people in reasonable health. That must put enormous pressure on its budget. I suspect that the Soviet Union can no more afford expenditure on nuclear weapons than can the Western alliance. For that reason we believe that there is a real chance to make progress. The fundamental decision today is: do we want an independent nuclear deterrent? The Liberal view on that has been known for a long time, and remains "No." On the second question "Is it the best buy?", we believe that there is no need for us to study that question.
8.23 pm
Mr. Julian Critchley: The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin), who opened for the Opposition, was clearly uncomfortable. His reputation is

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that of a unilateralist, and the logic of unilateralism is neutralism. How sad it is that a once great party now finds itself led in defence by that right hon. Gentleman.
I am an agnostic on Trident. I want to share some of my doubts with the House. I shall ask three rhetorical questions, I shall attempt to answer them, and then I shall sit down—all in five minutes.
The three rhetorical questions are these. First, what sort of war is most likely? Secondly, under what circumstances would Britain be prepared to use the Trident system? Thirdly, what are the opportunity costs? It is generally agreed that the most likely war is a conventional attack by the Soviet Union in central Europe. If we fail to defeat that conventional attack by conventional means, the West will have no choice but to escalate through the nuclear ladder. That is generally agreed to be the most likely war of all that might break out. The idea that the Soviets would suddenly strike us with strategic nuclear weapons is unthinkable.
Mr. Donald Stewart: Would not the fact that we ran down our conventional forces mean that the Soviets could win that type of war?
Mr. Critchley: If the right hon. Gentleman is patient, I shall come to that in the third of my rhetorical questions.
Secondly, under what circumstances would Britain be prepared to use Trident? Would we use it first as a consequence of the defeat of NATO in a conventionally fought war in Europe? Would we use it first to protect us from invasion? I suspect that we would not, because, under those circumstances, to use our Trident missile system first would result in the destruction of the United Kingdom and would, therefore, be an irrational act. However, I think that we would use it second were our cities to be struck first by the Soviet Union.
It is more complicated if, for example, the Soviets used a selective strike against Holy Loch. How would we then respond in nuclear terms? Would we destroy Moscow and, in return, be destroyed ourselves; would our bluff be called; or would we be capable of using the Trident system to aim at a particular weapons system, perhaps in Murmansk, as a tit for tat?
The only value of having a so-called independent nuclear deterrent is, first, that for £7, 500 million we almost guarantee that no enemy will strike our cities first with its nuclear weapons and, secondly—here I shall shock some hon. Members—were we to be defeated in a land battle in Europe and the Trident system remained intact and at sea, we would have a high card to play in the negotiations between victors and vanquished, which would then enable us to come to terms with the Soviet Union and preserve a degree of independence. Those are the only two advantages of having an independent nuclear system. Some people may argue that it is worth £7, 500 million, others may not.
My third point relates to "opportunity costs". My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson)—who looks after the Secretary of State, keeps his drink filled and helps him on with his overcoat as Parliamentary Private Secretary—has recently published a book called "Uncertain Ally". It is a super book and costs £15. Those hon. Members who cannot afford it should read my review on Thursday in the Daily Telegraph, price 18p. In that great book my hon. Friend looks not only
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backwards but forwards. He argues the parameters of the next defence review, which will take place after the next election.
The first task of a Secretary of State in a Conservative Government, assuming that we are re-elected, will be to have yet another fundamental defence review. If one looks at the conditions in the mid-1980s, one can only come to certain conclusions. First, there will be little or no economic growth. Secondly, a Conservative Government would be pretty reluctant to allocate additional resources to defence. Do not be deceived by the argument "All, we have given 3 per cent. extra in real terms". That commitment was entered into by a Labour Government and we fulfilled it. Over and above the rate of inflation, there will be a 6 per cent. increase in weapons procurement. Therefore, the graphs will cross in the mid-1980s.
If we purchase the Trident system at that stage, the question will then be what commitment we cut. Whereas in the early 1980s the Foreign and Commonwealth Office was able to protect the British Army of the Rhine, will it be able to protect it in the mid-1980s? Indeed, in his great book, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood advocates that half of BAOR should be withdrawn and disbanded. I shall not argue whether that is right, but why not go the whole hog and bring it all back?
What would be the consequences of bringing BAOR back in the mid-1980s? What would be the consequences for European-American relations, British-German relations, British-French relations and German-American relations? If we are not prepared to station our army in Germany, the forces of isolationism and nationalism in the United States will grow stronger. The argument for recalling the American Seventh Army would be irresistible. When that happened, we should be uncoupled vis-a-vis the United States strategic nuclear deterrent and back on our own again.
In such hypothetical circumstances—the Rhine Army being the real "opportunity cost" of the Trident programme—we shall find ourselves using the Trident fleet as the highest card in our negotiating hand following defeat in a conventionally fought European war 'when victor and vanquished get together and we are obliged to extract some advantage from that horrific situation.
8.30 pm
Mr. Bob Cryer: Tonight we have had the ceremonial wringing of hands by Conservative and Liberal hon. Members. They say how nasty nuclear weapons are, and how little they want to purchase them. But they will go abjectly into the Lobby and support the motion.
The truth is that in both conventional and nuclear forces NATO is stronger than the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. The evidence is set out in the annual report of the International Institute for Strategic Studies. In referring to military balance, the report states on page 111 that in 1980–81, for example:
"Apart from having greater economic resources, Alliance countries, including France, maintain rather more men under arms than the Warsaw Pact. For Army/Marines the figures are: NATO 2, 860, 000; Warsaw Pact 2, 612, 000. And the Soviet Union has a large number of her divisions and men on the, Chinese border."
That shows that the Soviet Union has a rather weaker presence in Europe than NATO.
If those who support the deterrence theory stand by it, as many Conservative hon. Members do, they have some

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explaining to do. We reached the position of deterrence in 1963. At that time the United States had about 600 intercontinental ballistic missiles which could wipe out all the major Soviet cities. Was that the basis of deterrence? Was that the basis that stopped the "Russkies" advancing through Europe and ending civilisation and freedom as we know it? If so, why since 1963, year by year, have people such as those in the Tory Party been wringing their hands saying "All these weapons are dreadful but we must have more and more of them."? That is precisely what has happened. As the West has increased its stocks, so the Soviet Union has caught up. Where will it end? This debate is an example of that. Trident breaches the nonproliferation treaty that the United Kingdom signed in 1968 and means a vast escalation in our nuclear power. Each Polaris submarine carries more firepower than was expended by both sides in the 1939–45 war.
We are talking about a vast capability for the mass extermination of humanity. What do we propose to do? What are all the Tories talking about in their platitudinous way when they say they will vote for Trident? They will be voting for a system that will increase the capacity of each submarine from 48 missiles to 272. A recently published book entitled "As Lambs to the Slaughter" by Dr. Paul Rogers, Dr. Malcolm Dando and Dr. Peter Van Den Dungen, who work at Bradford university peace studies department, states that the D5 missile has 17 warheads.— [Interruption.] If the moans and groans from the Tory Benches mean that I am wrong, let the Minister deny it. Let him say how inaccurate the remarks in that book are if academic research is to be treated with such disdain by the well-dressed gentlemen on the Tory Benches.
The House is discussing a massive escalation in our nuclear firepower that will almost certainly be the reason for the Soviet Union trying yet again to catch up. What sort of position is that for a Government who bleat so often about the desire to reduce nuclear forces in the world? They are trying with might and main to increase them. Have they not learnt from history? Do they not realise that since 1963, as one side has increased its nuclear force, the other side has followed. Each side strives to catch up with the other. That is precisely what is happening with Trident.
This stems from the repeated assertion by Conservatives and Liberals that the Russians are aggressive, increasing their aggression and spending more and more money on arms. That is the Conservative position.
On 3 March 1981, in a defence debate, the vice-chairman of the Conservative Party defence group, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Mr. Clark), said:
"One could also suggest that the intentions of the Soviet Union in central Europe are not necessarily as aggressive as many of my hon. Friends claim. … If one measures the extent by which the strength of the Soviet Union has been eroded in central Europe by defections of one kind or another since that high point at the time of the Berlin airlift, one sees that effectively, it has lost Austria, half of which it occupied, and Finland over which it exercised almost total dominance. It has lost, irreparably, Yugoslavia. It has lost Rumania in all but name. In Hungary, the regime has become more relaxed and more inimical to Soviet influence. Finally, there are threatened developments for the Soviet Union in Poland. Seen from the Soviet side, this shows a steady pattern of retreat and disintegration."—[Official Report, 3 March 1981; Vol. 1000, c.193.]
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They are the words of a vice-chairman of the Conservative defence group and yet the Conservative Government are embarking on a £10 billion escalation of nuclear firepower.
There is evidence, which I have adduced before, of NATO saying that the Russians are spending more than they are. Senator Nino Pasti said in 1980:
"The truth is that NATO forces, both conventional and nuclear, are stronger than those of the Warsaw pact countries. During the last 10 years the Soviet military budget has remained stable. My colleagues were unhappy about this situation, because they could not justify increases in their own expenditure. So they invented a 'pricing' system. It is easy to see how the figures were inflated to show higher Soviet expenditure."
Senator Nino Pasti is a former member of the NATO military committee and former deputy supreme allied commander for NATO nuclear affairs. His opinion cannot be brushed aside lightly even by the besotted intellects on the Conservative Benches.
When I asked the former Secretary of State how he was so certain about Soviet expenditure he said:
"Since the Soviet figures are so unreliable we have to make our own estimates of its expenditure and this is done in great detail every year by assessing the cost to the Soviet Union of all known items of spending, and aggregating them for purposes of comparison according to the NATO definition of defence expenditure."—[Official Report, 7 July 1980; Vol. 988, c. 54.]
In other words, the Government are indulging in guesswork. The Government are building up a nuclear deterrent with more firepower than all the firepower used in the 1939–45 war and multiplying it on the basis of guesses.—[interruption.]—The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Benyon) keeps chuntering from the corner. According to Salt II, the United States has 11, 894 warheads for strategic purposes and the USSR 6, 005. Those figures exclude Polaris, and we are escalating the odds in our favour. According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, on an arriving warheads basis, the USSR has 819 warheads, including the SS20s, and NATO has 555, so the USSR has an edge there. In terms of tactical warheads, however—the difference between tactical and theatre weapons is merely the extent to which warheads can be projected or lobbed into an area—the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to learn that NATO has 7, 000 compared with the Warsaw Pact's 3, 500. By and large, therefore, our firepower massively outweighs that of the Soviet Union.
I turn to the democracy in all this. The Secretary of State will be familiar with the details of civil defence whereby we defend our democracy by appointing supremos—people with supreme power who will be entitled to go into a bunker and shoot anyone who comes near. That is a funny way of defending democracy when we reach the nuclear holocaust towards which this and other countries are unfortunately drifting bit by bit. The Secretary of State will be familiar also with a great deal more information about the decision than is given to the House. The House is a democratic assembly. That is what it is all about. We are defending our freedom and democracy, but of what does that freedom and democracy consist? Certainly it does not consist of the Secretary of State giving information.
If we have the almighty deterrent of Trident, I should have thought that we should let the Russians know how effective it is. I asked how D5 will be targeted—whether on civilian or military targets. Surely we are entitled to know what are the Government's tactics—whether they

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intend to exterminate people, or to exterminate military targets first and people next. Apparently, that is secret. I was told that
"It has been the practice of successive Governments not to disclose the targeting plans for our nuclear forces."
When I asked how many missiles there would be on the D5, I was told that
"The number of warheads per missile will be matters to be decided by the Government of the day."
However, when an informed academic makes an estimate, it is apparently greeted with jeers by the Tory Party. Tories prefer the silence and the anti-democratic attitude of the Secretary of State and his cohorts on the Treasury Bench to the idea of giving information to a democratically elected assembly.
Mr. W. Benyon: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that that question has been asked in Moscow?
Mr. Cryer: I have no doubt that it has been and will continue to be asked in Moscow. The notion that there are no peaceful forces in the Soviet Union is inaccurate. I have met a Soviet peace delegation which came to the House and interviewed hon. Members. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman asked whether there was a peace movement in the Soviet Union. I am saying that there is. I do not know what influence it has, but hon. Members were entitled to go to that meeting. I was present when those people were cross-examined about their independence and influence. They claimed to be independent and to be trying to shove the Soviet Union towards a more peaceful path than the road to which it is already committed. There is, therefore, a peaceful element in Russia. Tory Members may decry it. I am merely giving evidence of its existence.
The evidence from the Secretary of State is much more slender. When I asked about the accuracy of Trident, I was told:
"It is not the practice, for security reasons, to reveal the detailed operational characteristics, including accuracy, of weapon systems."—[Official Report, 26 March 1982; Vol. 20, c. 429.]
That is a curious way of demonstrating our deterrent power to the Russians. If we have a more accurate, capable and horrific weapon, we should tell the rest of the world about it so that they do not attack us. All the arguments adduced by the Tories about the United Kingdom's deterrent apply to every other country. More than 100 countries do not have nuclear weapons. The Government's arguments are a recipe for proliferation on a massive scale.
In 1968, the United Kingdom Government supported the nuclear non-proliferation treaty on the basis that there would not be an increase in nuclear weaponry. That was the basis on which many of the signatories supported the treaty. If we do not make a move in the direction of getting rid of nuclear weapons, more and more countries will decide to follow the example of the United Kingdom and start out on the nuclear weapons path. The more countries that do so, the greater will be the danger to the world.
For the hungry section of the world, one of the most obscene aspects of this is the expenditure of £10 billion on arms when the vast majority of people do not have enough to eat, decent clothing or decent shelter over their heads. I do not know how the Secretary of State and his cronies on the Treasury Bench can rest easy in committing the Government to this massive expenditure when they know full well that our influence and our moral standing in the
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world would be immeasurably enhanced if we shifted those resources to keeping people alive rather than threatening them with mass extermination.
8.46 pm
Mr. W. Benyon: I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer), and I stick to the question that I asked in my intervention, because I do not believe that that question could possibly be asked in Moscow.
Two themes have run through today's debate. First, the world is an extremely dangerous place. Secondly, this debate could not take place in the Soviet Union. That is the difference between the two systems. Nothing is more dangerous than a dictatorship under pressure, and when the dictatorship has the characteristics of the Soviet system, with its ancient leadership, its shaky economy, the dissidents within its borders and the rumblings within the empire itself, the situation becomes very dangerous indeed.
The essence of the matter is that the present situation in the Soviet Union makes that country's leaders nervous and unsure of themselves. It is important to appreciate the psychology behind what the Russians are now doing. We are informed by those who watch the Russians that it stems from a pathological fear of invasion and the overthrow of the regime.
The logical Western response, after years of Liberal thought and discussion and so on, is that if we disarm unilaterally the fears of the Russian leaders will go away. In fact, the opposite occurs. It becomes an excuse to extend the empire. It is very difficult to persuade people of this. I find it difficult to put it aross to my constituents that in these circumstances one would merely increase the dangers.
I should make it clear at the outset that I entirely accept that, if one is to have an independent nuclear deterrent, Trident is the right system—no alternative makes sense—and I commend the Government for obtaining a very good deal in this respect.
The question that we must really ask is whether we should have such weapons at all. I am convinced that there is no argument for it from the foreign policy angle. This is the only point on which I come at all close to the hon. Member for Keighley. We receive no welcome overseas by simply being a nuclear power. Our welcome derives from our economic power, our ties of association and the other attractions that we have for overseas countries. They lead to the cordiality and friendship which produce good relations. With regard to France, however, I accept that there might be a foreign policy argument, in that otherwise France would undoubtedly assume the defence leadership of Europe.
Is the deterrent a viable one if we have it? For me, that is the most difficult question to answer. Obviously it is viable in certain circumstances. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Critchley) touched on some of those. It is logical to ask why, if it is a viable deterrent, the United States has to have one 30 times as great. The trouble is that all the time we are thinking the unthinkable and believing the unbelievable.
On the question of our conventional forces, I cannot believe that we can have Trident without its cutting into their equipment budget. Everything points to two developments—first, that there will be a nuclear stalemate, which will enhance the possibility of a

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conventional war, and, consequently, that an increased importance will be placed on our conventional deterrent. If Trident II means that we have a weaker conventional capability, particularly at sea, then paradoxically the situation is made more rather than less dangerous. I cannot but remark that at its height the Trident programme will cost the equivalent of six major capital ships a year.
The most worrying questions still arise on the Navy, in spite of everything that has been said. I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State as modestly and as moderately as I can whether he realises what changes have occurred in the morale of the Royal Navy since the cuts were made and have now been added to by the sale of HMS "Invincible" to the Australians. That involves not only the loss of the pride of the Navy but the reason advanced for the sale of the ship—that it was too costly to run. Yet almost the next day it was announced that HMS "Fearless" and "Intrepid", which are 15 and 17 years old respectively, are to be kept in service. I give that one example as evidence of the widely held view that the Navy is not receiving its right priority in the Defence Estimates.
We must be reassured on this matter, because in a nuclear stalemate our enemies will see a maritime strategy as the best means of attacking Britain. A navy cannot be built up quickly.
With those reservations, I have reached the reluctant conclusion that it is necessary to have an independent nuclear deterrent, and that it should be Trident. I have reached that conclusion if for no other reason than that pinpointed by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot that the future is so uncertain and that Trident is an insurance policy that no prudent Government can forgo. However, it must be allied to a major effort to achieve multilateral disarmament. None of us likes these weapons. We possess them with extreme reluctance but possess them we must until the world is made into a much safer place.
8.53 pm
Mr. Bill Walker: A number of hon. Members have referred to the effect of Trident on our conventional forces. I wish to make a few remarks on that matter.
First, there has been a great deal of emotional talk about the Royal Navy. The defence of the North and Eastern Atlantic against Soviet land-based aircraft with a stand-off capability and using non-nuclear weapons has changed dramatically the way that a sea war would be conducted in that theatre. When the Government came into office in 1979, the Royal Navy was, in some respects, in a similar position to that of 1939. It was badly equipped to meet attack from the air from land-based aircraft.
In 1939 the Royal Navy had aircraft carriers which were equipped with string-bags—the Swordfish, which was a bi-plane. The Japanese showed us what could happen when monoplanes were used against capital ships when they sunk the "Prince of Wales" and the "Repulse". If ever we needed convincing that capital ships were vulnerable to attacks from fixed-wing aircraft, surely that convinced
us.
The air defence of anti-submarine carriers, such as the one that we are selling to the Australians, who do not face attacks from land-based Soviet aircraft, would place a big strain on our sea-air defence capability. The Navy requires
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a new type of ship capable of co-ordinating and cooperating with United Kingdom-based aircraft to meet the combined threat of hostile submarines and Soviet land-based supersonic aircraft which have over-the-horizon, stand-off fire weapons.
The Trident submarine base has excited us in Scotland recently. I should like confirmation that Scottish consultant engineers and contractors will be given the chance to participate in the work at the Trident base at Coulport and that the southern England based PSA old-boy network will be told that Scottish engineers have to be given an opportunity.
A scare story was spread in Glasgow last week during the by-election campaign. It was suggested that Glasgow would become a target because of the location of the submarine base. Of course, that suggestion overlooks the fact that the submarines at sea, and not those in the base, are the deterrent. Any first strike against the deterrent would have to be against the submarines and not against the base near Glasgow.
The soft option of the SDP appears to be placing cruise missiles on submarines. The submarines would require deep water operations if they were to remain invulnerable, which means that missiles would spend a large part of their flight time over water. Cruise missiles are slow flying and rely on the contours of the land for protection against surface-to-air missiles and aircraft detection.
Cruise missiles launched from submarines would travel slowly over the water and would be vulnerable to the look-down, shoot-down capability of modern aircraft. Therefore, they would not be a deterrent. They would be too easy a target to destroy.
Another suggested option is cruise missiles carried by aircraft. We would need sufficient aircraft to have planes airborne for 24 hours a day. I served in the RAF at the time of the V-bombers when we had that 24-hour capability, but we would also need, as we had at that time, sufficient aircraft to provide a quick readiness alert capability, which would call for many airfields, a lot of aircraft and many more airmen to keep the planes and bases in operation. It would certainly involve many more resources than would be required by the Navy to operate four Trident submarines and one base. Therefore, all my experience tells me that that proposal is not a cost-effective way to provide a credible nuclear deterrent.
The claim that because Trident may have a first-strike capability against a limited number of targets it is less of a deterrent seems to me to ignore the fact that a first strike by Trident against some Soviet silos would still leave Soviet submarines at sea, with all the capacity to destroy our cities. The deterrent remains because the Trident submarines at sea will be able to inflict an unacceptable level of damage on Soviet cities.
The USSR is a massive conglomeration of races and creeds, whose military policy has been influenced by the 20 million deaths that it suffered during the Hitler war. In addition, the military is part of the Government of the USSR and the West must recognise that those two factors will limit the areas where agreement can be reached in negotiations. That is why we must accept that multilateral reductions must be on the basis that the political leaders in the USSR can persuade the military that what is being given away and what is being gained add up to an acceptable deal.
Therefore, the decision to deploy cruise and Pershing II missiles in Western Europe was enough to bring the

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Soviets to the negotiating table with an alternative to the zero option. At least we were beginning to talk. In my judgment, the only realistic and cost-effective option open to Britain and NATO is to maintain a nuclear deterrent capability while being prepared to negotiate for verifiable arms reductions. That is why I shall support Trident.
9.1 pm
Dr. Alan Glyn: The debate has clearly shown how the three political parties—the official Labour Party, the Liberal Party and the Social Democratic Party—stand and differ on defence policy. In the limited time available, I must simply say that Trident II is perhaps the best bargain since the Nassau agreement for Polaris. It is vital that we should have an independent nuclear deterrent.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he thought it was essential for the United Kingdom to have an independent nuclear deterrent capability. This has been endorsed by the United States in the exchange of letters between the Prime Minister and President Reagan. It is in our interests and the interests of the world for us to have that. I am certain that, of all the options open to the Government and the considerations they have given to them, Trident II is the best option. We cannot go on with Polaris, because it will cost far too much in maintenance. We would be short of spares and it would be impossible to make replacements. Therefore, Trident II is the only sensible option open to the Government.
We know that Warsaw Pact countries have superior conventional forces to NATO. We need a deterrent to stop other countries from attacking us. Until some form of arms limitation has been reached, we need that deterrent. The only deterrent option open to us is to have Trident II (D5), which has been suggested and offered on favourable terms by the United States. The Americans are not likely to change their mind. Having given us the opportunity, I am certain that they will keep to their agreement as they did with the Nassau agreement. We shall have Trident II (D5) and, thereby, be able to preserve our position and negotiate from strength. From then onwards, one hopes, we will be able to guarantee arms limitations.
My time is up and I thank the House for the extra few minutes that I have been given.
9.3 pm
Mr. Denzil Davies: A hallmark of the debate has been the total unanimity on the Opposition Benches among all parties in their opposition to the Government's decision to buy the Trident D5 missile system. The Labour Party opposed that decision for the reasons clearly set out in the amendment on the Order Paper. The decision increases the danger of nuclear war by encouraging the proliferation of nuclear weapons, lowering the nuclear threshold and placing a heavy burden on the British economy, which restricts Britain's ability to conduct an independent foreign policy.
It is significant that the exchange of letters between the British and United States Governments and, indeed, the whole tone of the Secretary of State's comments in the House, plus the Government's motion, all tend to see the decision to buy Trident as some sort of extension—even a by-product—of the Polaris agreement of 1963. It is as if the world had stood still over the past 20 years. However, there have been substantial changes, both in the number of nuclear weapons and their sophistication. The
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nuclear stockpile is rising inexorably. There has been a profound change in thinking about the use of nuclear weapons.
The Secretary of State should not, as he does from time to time, bemoan the fact that the consensus on British deterrence has broken down in the House. Instead, Government Members should try to understand why that has happened. I do not know whether the concept of deterrence has been the main reason why there has been no war in Europe for almost 40 years. I do not know the answer to that question and that may or may not be the reason. Nobody can answer that question with certainty one way or the other. However, it is clear that, especially over the past decade, the world of deterrence with its almost superficial stability, has been gradually supplanted and eroded. That has led to a different, more dangerous and bizarre world; the world of counter-force, first strike and limited nuclear war.
Hon. Members on the Government Benches favour the French. We have heard many references to France. An article by a Frenchman in the last NATO review sums the matter up clearly:
"Thirty years ago the inaccuracy of the delivery vehicles, the fearful destruction that would have been caused by the use of H bombs, made war 'unthinkable' and forced the strategists to come up with the idea of 'deterrence', whose aim was precisely to keep political confrontations below the nuclear threshold. Today, the advent of accurate miniaturized weapons and of modern delivery and control systems, means that for the first time since 1945, nuclear war becomes if not possible … at least thinkable in the way Clausewitz understood it."
That is the difference. The unthinkable is becoming thinkable. The change has been caused by the nature of the weapons—by their sophistication and the fact that they are much more accurate. Technology has taken over, and it is, unfortunately, swifter than politics and diplomacy.
The situation is summed up more concisely by Mr. George Ball, a respected former United States diplomat. Recently in the United States Congress he stated:
"In Government circles one hears expressions of dangerous nonsense which thoughtful men and women had ruled out years ago—that we should regard nuclear weapons as weapons of war and not merely of deterrence."
It does not suffice for the Government to say that they do not regard Trident D5 as a weapon of war. They may not. The fact remains that it is. The technology makes it a weapon of war. There is no way that we can work our way out of that.
What matters in the nuclear chess game is not just the subjective intention of the holder of the weapon. Perhaps more important is the perception in the eye of the beholder. Trident D5 is seen as a weapon of war. That is the change that has taken place over the past 20 years.
As has been said, in 1968 Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union established the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. The Government maintain that by buying the system from the Americans we are not breaking article 1 of the treaty. We are buying the missile system and not the warhead that contains the nuclear explosive. That may be technically correct, but there is little doubt that the Government are breaking the spirit of the treaty. What is more important, they will be seen to be doing so by other countries who will not be over-impressed by their Jesuitical interpretation of the words.
If it is permissible for us to indulge in proliferation, why not other countries—West Germany, Japan or an oil rich Middle Eastern State that can afford to buy the system?
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: It is for the same reason that we are permanent members of the Security Council. Certain powers set up the United Nations and its instruments after the last war which were on the side that possessed the weapons initially. That is why.
Mr. Davies: I do not see any justification in that. If it is felt that nuclear weapons preserve peace and save a country from a potential aggressor, why should not every country have them? Why should we be the exception?
Despite the clear act of vertical proliferation, the Government still have the effrontery to pay lip service at least to the efforts that they say they make to secure nonproliferation. Conveniently last week we received through the post a glossy brochure. It is produced by the Foreign Office and concerns arms control and disarmament. The Secretary of State should read it. He may find interesting facts in it. Paragraph 11 states:
"Non-proliferation. Britain played a leading part in the second Review Conference of the Non-Proliferation Treaty in 1980. We have worked with other nuclear exporters to ensure that civil nuclear industries can be sustained without the risk of spreading nuclear weapons technology. We have advocated strengthening the safeguards system of the International Atomic Energy Agency on the transfer of fissionable materials."
Having said that, we still find the Government embarking on this act of proliferation. If it is right for us, why is it not right for other countries to protect themselves from blackmail and a potential aggressor?
One of the myriad reasons that are dragged out from time to time—we did not hear it today because the language has changed slightly—to justify continuing with the British nuclear capability is that it provides something called a second centre of decision making. Today that was called a complication factor—there has been a slight change in the language, but it is still the old second centre of decision making. Apparently that creates uncertainty in the Kremlin and in that way helps to keep the peace. If a second centre is a good thing, why should there not be a third, a fourth or fifth centre?
Mr. Michael Mates: There is a third centre—Paris.
Mr. Davies: If Paris is the third centre, let us have the fourth centre somewhere else. Then, presumably, we can sleep more soundly in our beds.
The idea of creating uncertainty and of a second centre of decision making is ludicrous. If a nuclear war were to break out, that would be likely to happen at a time of grave international tension, similar to what happened in the Cuban crisis a few years ago, when one side, out of fear, error, and uncertain information, panics and is tempted to go for a first strike. In such a situation a second centre of decision-making creating uncertainty merely increases misunderstanding and encourages misapprehension and panic. Therefore, I hope that the Government will drop the notion that somehow they can defend their independent nuclear deterrent by those specious arguments.
Sir Frederick Burden: The right hon. Gentleman will accept that his Government continued to keep the nuclear capability in Polaris. Is he now telling us that if the Opposition were the Government today they would have done away with Polaris and would have destroyed that nuclear capability completely?
Mr. Davies: We have said that we would cancel the Trident programme. [Interruption.] I will answer the
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question. I have tried to argue that the world has considerably changed over the past 20 years. It is right that, when the Government are embarking on a major change in our defence strategy, we should question the theories that are being found wanting.
By going on with the purchase of nuclear weapons, the Government are demonstrating their contempt for the efforts that are now being made to secure some small measure of nuclear disarmament. They profess to be in favour of multilateral nuclear disarmament. What is the British Government's contribution to multilateral nuclear disarmament? What is the Secretary of State offering? Absolutely nothing. The Government are embarking on unilateral escalation of nuclear weapons. They are making no contribution and are taking no initiatives on their theory and the idea of multilateral nuclear disarmament.
There are now talks in Geneva about the reduction in the deployment of cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe and about the Soviet SS20 missiles. The House and the Government know that the Soviet Union has always argued—I believe with some justification—that it is unrealistic merely to consider those weapons without taking into account the British and French nuclear systems and what are called the forward based systems. However, in the middle of those sensitive and crucial talks, knowing those facts, the Government are embarking on a major escalation that can only make the task of negotiation more difficult.
I ask the Secretary of State why it is right to include in the zero option at Geneva cruise missiles based on Greenham Common, while apparently it is not right to include in those negotiations Trident missiles based on the Clyde. What on earth is the difference between a cruise missile fired from Greenham Common at Leningrad 3, 000 miles away and a Trident missile fired at Leningrad 1, 000 miles off the Gulf of Finland? The answer is that one lot are strategic and the other lot come under the term "theatre".
Sir Timothy Kitson: It is in the minority report.
Mr. Davies: I shall read from the publication that defines "strategic". I am ignorant of these matters.
Sir Timothy Kitson: That is why they gave you the job.
Mr. Davies: When I read the definition of strategic arms in paragraph 7 of the document——
Sir Timothy Kitson: What is the document?
Mr. Davies: It is entitled "Peace and disarmament—a short guide to British Government Policy". Indeed, it is very short. It seems that there is not much policy. Strategic arms are defined as
"land-based missiles and bomber forces of intercontinental range and the long-range missiles deployed on aircraft or in submarines with which the United States and the Soviet Union could strike each other's territory."
There is nothing in the paragraph and nothing in the book, except in the appendix, about the British strategic nuclear weapon. It is not described as strategic, theatre or anything else. No attempt is made at giving a definition. What is the British weapon? Is it strategic or is it intermediate? Does it matter whether it is one or the other? Why does the Secretary of State not say that the Government are prepared to commit the Trident missile

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system either to the Geneva talks or to the strategic arms reduction talks which will start, presumably, before the end of the year?
It does not matter much to which talks the system is committed. If the Government are genuine and if they believe in multilateral nuclear disarmament, why do they not take the initiative? If the Prime Minister gets to New York for the disarmament talks before the doors close, she will have a glorious opportunity to take that initiative and prove to the world that the Government believe in multilateral nuclear disarmament and not merely in talking about it. While the Geneva discussions and the talks on strategic arms reduction are taking place there is no argument for not including the Trident missile system if the Government believe in multilateral nuclear disarmament.
We do not accept the estimate of £7·5 billion that the Secretary of State has produced. We believe that he has presented it mainly to convince his Cabinet colleagues and to get it past the Treasury. We do not believe that it will be the eventual figure. It is far from realistic. Expenditure at present prices will be at least £10 billion and possibly more.
Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark: It may be a lot more than that.
Mr. Davies: Indeed. The estimates of the cost of building the submarines are far too optimistic.
Sir Timothy Kitson: Why?
Mr. Davies: We have had no experience of building submarines of this size and the costs when the Americans were building the first submarine escalated wildly. The Secretary of State has little idea of the final cost of the missile or the re-entry vehicle, both of which are to be built in America. He said recently that the Americans have a good record of developing missiles to cost. Has he read the recent Pentagon report to Congress, which shows that the cost of the Tomahawk cruise missile—I accept that it is a slightly different weapon—has increased on four occasions in the past year? By how much does he think the cost of the Trident (D5) system will increase? The right hon. Gentleman has no idea of the cost and he should admit that to the House.
The Secretary of State is pleased that there is to be a ceiling on research and development expenditure. However, that ceiling is to be linked to inflation. I tabled a question to the Ministry of Defence last week as I wanted to know the indexation that is to be used for inflation. It seemed that the Ministry did not know. Are we to use the British RPI, the American RPI or some special defence index that will be concocted to suit the American armaments industry? The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Beaumont-Dark) nods his head in agreement. The Secretary of State has no idea what the cost of research and development will be at the end of the day.
Sir Timothy Kitson: Is the right hon. Gentleman being fair to Vickers, which built the last Polaris, to suggest that it cannot estimate accurately when it succeeded in building one of our defence weapons for £3 million under the estimated price?
Mr. Davies: Vickers has a long and good record in such matters. All that I am saying is that Vickers has not built such submarines. As the Americans found out, there are considerable difficulties in building such submarines.
The Secretary of State also mentioned the possibility that, under an offset agreement, British contractors will be allowed to tender for American contracts. Again, if experience is any guide, little will come out of that. Even if the American Administration were to agree—the Secretary of State said that he had obtained a sort of undertaking from Caspar Weinberger—the matter will be decided by Congress. With all the budgetary problems faced by Congress, with high unemployment in America and with the stranglehold that the American armaments industry has over much of Congress, British industry will not see much benefit from the proposals. As so often in the past with defence projects, the costs of this foolish venture will escalate far more than the Government's present estimate.
Mr. Onslow: Has the right hon. Gentleman had the opportunity to discuss what he has just said with American senators to assess their interest in ensuring that we acquire this system, because they regard it as essential to mutual defence interests—or is he making it up?
Mr. Davies: My little knowledge of the American Senate is that it looks after its own contractors very well. If the hon. Gentleman knows something about pressure groups in the United States of America, he will know the power of the American armaments industry over the senators, especially during election year.
Whether the cost will be £7·5 billion, £10 billion or more, as some hon. Members believe, it will place an intolerable burden both on Britain's conventional defences and on our economy. It is time that the Government stopped the pretence that our conventional forces will not be affected. No one believes it. We have had some cuts in the Royal Navy, cuts in our air defence and more cuts will follow year after year as the cost of Trident escalates. By cutting our conventional defences and relying more on nuclear weapons, the Government are lowering the nuclear threshold. The risk will then be that, because of the inadequacy of conventional forces, there will be a temptation to use nuclear weapons that will escalate into the horror of a full-scale nuclear confrontation.
The burden on the economy will also be heavy. To give one example, the Ministry of Defence admitted that almost half—45 per cent.—of the cost of Trident will not benefit the British economy by one penny. All of it will be paid into the United States in dollars straight across the exchanges. All that money will go into the pockets of the American armaments manufacturers. If we are correct that the cost will be £10 billion, that means that almost £5 billion will be paid in dollars to America and not a penny will come to the British economy except the little that can be obtained under the offset agreement.
If that payment is spread over 10 years, it means a £500 million a year drain on the balance of payments. On top of that, if we take the £650 million drain for keeping the British Army in Germany, over a period there will be a £1 billion drain on our balance of payments purely for our defence commitments. If a British Government maintain the Trident programme, they cannot maintain the British Army of the Rhine, with the resulting defence and foreign policy consequences. It will have an effect not only on the economy, but on our defence policy.

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Ultimately, the Trident system is supposed to provide Britain with an independent nuclear capability. I know that the Secretary of State gets upset about the motion. Earlier, he spoke eloquently about Trident being an independent nuclear deterrent. Why on earth is that not mentioned in the motion? It was not included in the motion before us last time we debated this subject and it is not included now. Why not? I have merely asked a simple question and I should be happy if the Secretary of State would respond. Why not include in the motion mention of an independent strategic nuclear deterrent? Does it mean that Trident is not independent? What does it mean?
Despite the problem with spares and so on, let us assume that Trident is independent. The rationale must be that we need it because the Secretary of State does not really trust the Americans. He must believe that the Americans may not be prepared, in the end, to come to Britain's defence. That is why the Government wish to make such a purchase. It is envisaged that the Russian armies might subjugate Western Europe, that the United States of America would not be prepared to help us with its strategic weapons and that Britain would be left alone with its four Trident missiles. The best comment comes, as usual, from Lord Carver, the former Chief of the Defence Staff. He said:
"I can find no scenario, and I never have, in which it is realistic that we should employ our nuclear weapons in circumstances in which the United States had decided not to deploy theirs."
That is the situation and that is where the case completely falls down.
The purchase of this so-called independent weapon represents an attempt to get another country to provide us with the illusion of independence. It is as if the purchase was somehow seen as a substitute for empire and as compensation for the loss of the supposed glories of the past. The speeches that have been made, especially about France, have been very interesting. Hon. Member after hon. Member has said that, as France has its own nuclear weapon, we should have one. They say that only because they do not want France to have something that we do not have. If France has it, we must have it. Ultimately, that is the rationale. Trident is some sort of substitute for the empire and for past glories. However, far from increasing our independence, it will diminish it. Defence policy cannot be taken in isolation from foreign policy. Indeed, foreign policy must come before defence policy, because defence policy is established by one's perceptions of foreign policy.
This purchase will make us more dependent on the foreign and defence policy of another nation—a nation with which we have close ties of peace and war, but still another nation that is different in size, geography, history and in its whole perception of the world. It is not good for Britain to tie its foreign and defence policies to another nation, albeit a friend and ally. However, the Secretary of State does not even ultimately trust America. There is no intellectual case for Trident and there is no moral case for it. There is no case for it on the basis of Britain's security. It imperils the peace of the world. Trident is a dangerous folly that increases the risk of a nuclear holocaust. By supporting the Opposition's amendment, the House will have the opportunity not only to stop the folly but to make a clear contribution towards ending the arms race.
9.28 pm
The Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Geoffrey Pattie): In opening the debate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State used a quotation from Sir Winston Churchill's speech in 1955. I refer to it because in such a debate it is essential to relate our deliberations to the situation in the outside world.
I could adduce a powerful case in support of the contention that since 1955 the world has become a much more dangerous place following the veritable explosion of Russian expenditure on military technology and hardware. However, for the purpose of the debate, I hope to carry the House with me on a much more modest proposition—that the world is no less dangerous than it was in 1955.
It is essential that the House should have constantly in mind the wider context in which this Trident debate takes place. If Britain decided not to replace Polaris with a system of equivalent effectiveness in the context of the start of the next century, we would be taking a decision with profoundly serious consequences for the alliance. We would be choosing to reduce the level of our deterrent capability as a deliberate act of policy, with all the attendant risks and without any justification in terms of a reduction in the threat.
There is at least one indisputable bedrock fact in this debate. At some future date the Polaris system will cease to be operationally effective. That will not happen overnight, but submarines age progressively and it is judged that by the mid-1990s their effectiveness will have diminished, not only because of their age, but because of their noise in what will by then be a relatively quiet underwater environment.
Those who oppose Trident fall into two broad camps. The first camp contains those who totally oppose our possession of nuclear weapons in any shape or form. The second camp includes some who support strategic nuclear weapons but who oppose Trident on the grounds of its cost, its too high performance and its impact on our conventional capability.
The case for unilateral nuclear disarmament has been put many times in the House and has yet to command majority support. The Labour Party has now taken up the cause formally in an attempt to revive its flagging fortunes. However, we are not told what a Labour Government would do about Polaris. The logic of the Labour Party's stated position would call for the dismantling of Polaris on coming into office, unlike what happened under previous Labour Governments. I notice that the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) was silent on that point in answer to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Sir F. Burden). It appears that we shall have creeping unilateralism whereby the Polaris force is allowed to run out over the years without replacement.
My right hon. Friend extensively covered the arguments for possessing a strategic nuclear capability as the vital underpinning for our theatre nuclear and conventional forces. We know that the Soviet Union has no intention whatever of following any unilateral gesture that we may care to make. Therefore, a unilateral gesture would serve only to weaken our capability without any reciprocal advantage being obtained, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) said so powerfully. We must press ahead in the many conferences

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that are tackling nuclear and conventional disarmament and give our support to the United States in initiatives such as the zero option.
The hon. Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens) made his usual speech. He suggested that the possession of Trident and cruise made us a target of the Soviet Union. He neglected to tell us what guarantees we would ever have that we would not be similarly targeted, even if we did not possess Trident and cruise. He went on to try to make the analogy of the carrying of firearms in civil life. I suggest to him that there is no supranational equivalent of a police force. Neither the Government nor I can agree with the unilateralist position. However, it is united totally with the Government in one sense. It must be the common aim of all of us to achieve a genuine and lasting peace.
That is what we all want to see, despite the comments of the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer), who, if I may say so, made his usual offensive speech. Whereas some people may try to be offensive, the hon. Gentleman does not have to try. He was particularly offensive about Conservative Members in suggesting that our desire for peace was not as sincere as his. I remind him and other hon. Members that, despite all the talking that there has been—I agree that there has been a great deal of talking over the past years about disarmament—a large number of agreements have been achieved. I remind him of the partial test ban treaty, the outer space treaty, the nonproliferation treaty, the seabed treaty, the biological weapons convention—which was initiated by a Conservative Government in 1972—the SALT II agreement, the ABM treaty, the threshold treaty and various other agreements that have been reached since. It may be unspectacular work, but it is more likely to achieve a lasting peace than anything that the hon. Gentleman is likely to suggest.
Mr. Cryer: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how the Government are advancing the cause of peace by increasing the nuclear missiles which are to be carried by the submarines from 48 to over 200? Is that not the path of nuclear escalation?
Mr. Pattie: The whole tenor of my speech will be to answer the hon. Gentleman's question.
It is to the second camp of Trident opponents that I now turn. Some of this camp accept the concept of the possession of strategic nuclear weapons in a world no less dangerous than when Winston Churchill spoke in 1955, but they have various detailed objections to Trident as a system. I shall now attempt to deal with those anxieties.
Much was made by the right hon. Member for Llanelli of the risk of cost escalation. He went so far as to pray in aid of his case the fourfold escalation of the Tomahawk system, although he knows full well that there is no analogy whatever between the Tomahawk and the system that we are discussing today.
My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Sir T. Kitson) reminded the House twice—in case the House did not catch it the first time—that the United Kingdom's Polaris system was brought in under budget. That was a remarkable achievement. There is no reason why that should not be repeated. We are not talking about a totally new system, a completely clean sheet of paper. This will be the fourth such system that the United States has produced, and the United States has had an extremely good record in the past.
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I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks in his question to the right hon. Member for Llanelli about the slur on the capacity of Vickers, Barrow. We are confident that Vickers will be able to meet the requirements. As for any problems that the United States may have experienced with the first of its Ohio class boats—a larger boat than we shall be building—we are confident that we shall be able to gain by that experience. We have included a contingency, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State told the Select Committee, of approximately £1, 000 million in the overall figure, and we see no reason to doubt that the programme will come into cost.
Mention was made of Trident as a first-strike weapon. Some Labour Members continue to fly in the face of reality and to claim that with the acquisition of Trident II (D5) we are seeking to obtain a first-strike capability. I was surprised—perhaps I should not have been—that the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin), who spoke first for the Opposition, once again repeated that fallacy. Undoubtedly, D5 will be much more accurate than the current C4 system, but the idea that we are producing it in order to be able to destroy Soviet ICBM silos does not stand up to a moment's examination.
Even if we were to deploy the maximum number of missiles and warheads possible—and we have indicated that we are not at present planning to do this—the total that we could have available at sea would still be well short of the total number of Soviet ICBM silos. There was an intervention earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) precisely on that point. That is without taking into account the 300 mobile SS20 missiles, two-thirds of which are within striking range of Europe, and nearly 1, 000 submarine-launched ballistic missiles, all of which are invulnerable to a first strike.
We have said it before many times, and I am glad to repeat it now, that the whole posture of the NATO alliance is totally defensive. We have no interest in being involved in a first strike. If anyone were thinking of a first strike anywhere in the world, the idea would be to take out all the enemy systems at the same time—the so-called Pearl Harbour complex. If it is apparent that there are 1, 000 submarine-launched ballistic missiles somewhere at large under the sea which cannot be located or taken out, surely that lays to rest the absurd argument that this is a first-strike weapon.
I want to draw attention to what was said by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang). When challenged in the debate, he did not retract what he is reported in the newspapers to have said. I accept that all of us do not always get the quotations in newspapers that we either deserve or think that we have made. According to the newspapers of 15 March, he said, when addressing the Scottish Labour Conference at Perth, that
"civil disobedience and industrial action should be used where appropriate to block deployment by Britain of the submarine-launched Trident nuclear missile."
That was an absolutely scandalous assertion for any Member of the House to make. I notice that the hon. Gentleman did not withdraw the remark during this debate.
The right hon. Member for Deptford and the hon, Member for Aberdare (Mr. Evans) both sought to claim that the purchase of Trident was contrary to the nonproliferation treaty. My right hon. Friend made it clear that article 1 of the treaty refers to the transfer of nuclear

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warheads from one State to another. There is no question whatever of the sale of Trident or any other nuclear-capable delivery system being in breach of the treaty. Its primary purpose is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons to States which at present do not have them. There is nothing in the treaty which requires existing nuclear weapon States unilaterally to abandon their weapons or prohibits modernisation of existing capabilities. That is precisely what non-proliferation means—a concept which apparently the right hon. Member for Llanelli finds difficult to grasp.
Mr. John Silkin: This is rather an important point, and I want it to be clear for the record. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that "nuclear weapon" refers only to the warhead and not to the means of delivering that warhead? Is that Her Majesty's Government's position? That will have an interesting effect on what other countries thought the nonproliferation treaty meant.
Mr. Pattie: I confirm that that is our understanding of the position. I do not believe that that would change other countries' views in the least.
Article 6 of the treaty commits all parties to the treaty to pursue negotiations on measures of nuclear disarmament. The United Kingdom has accordingly given full support to the United States in negotiations to limit both strategic arms and intermediate range nuclear missiles. We remain committed to a comprehensive test ban treaty. We have fulfilled all our obligations under international treaties and agreements on nuclear weapons. We remain committed to realistic and balanced nuclear disarmament. It is thus completely false to claim that we are in breach of either the letter or the spirit of the non-proliferation treaty.
Mr. Ioan Evans: I said in my earlier intervention that the logic of the argument put forward by the Government is as follows. They say that we cannot have a proper defence unless we have an independent nuclear deterrent. I am saying that, if that applies to Britain, Eastern European countries should not be dependent on the Soviet Union, and that Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia, and all the other Eastern European countries, should have independent nuclear deterrents, and the same applies to all countries in Western Europe and Canada. That is what I want the hon. Gentleman to recognise.
Mr. Pattie: I understood what the hon. Gentleman said the first time he said it. The non-proliferation treaty was signed by certain nuclear powers to take account of the situation that was obtaining at that time. There was the well-known Irish story about the man who said "If I were you, I would not start from here". It is no good talking about a new situation or the so-called logic in the argument. We must deal with the non-proliferation treaty as it is.
Mr. John Silkin: We now know that, in the Government's view, if any of the three main signatories transfers the missile system to any other country, that would not be in breach of the treaty. Is that so?
Mr. Pattie: The right hon. Gentleman is repeating his question——
Mr. Silkin: No, I am not.
Mr. Pattie: —and I repeat the answer that I gave him earlier.
Mr. Silkin rose——
Mr. Pattie: I shall not give way. The right hon. Gentleman has had his opportunity—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."]—and I have given him the answer.
Mr. Silkin rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is quite clear that the Minister is not giving way.
Mr. Pattie: The right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) ran through the whole gamut of arms control negotiations. I can agree with much of what he said. On MBFR, the Government are committed to achieve a balanced agreement, but the refusal of the Eastern bloc to make any progress on the crucial issue of data, which prevented any such agreement when the right hon. Gentleman was in office, remains. If he can see any move that would suddenly make a breakthrough in the next year possible, I am sure that the Western negotiators would be delighted to hear about it.
The idea of a battlefield nuclear-free zone, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned in this context, is, however, a complete nonsense. Quite apart from the fact that all the weapons are dual capable and, therefore, make such a ban unverifiable, in any crisis the weapons could rapidly be moved into the area. In any case, it is not where weapons are based that matters, but where they can land. The Soviet Union has a vast range of weapons located well back on Soviet territory that would quite easily hit targets in such a zone.
I can agree that a link between START and INF will eventually need to be established. Indeed, NATO has agreed that these should be pursued in the same framework. We fully support the need to maintain the antiballistic treaty. The right hon. Gentleman is probably aware that the question of a ban on anti-satellite weapons is under consideration at the conference on disarmament, and the United Kingdom has recently tabled proposals designed to carry forward negotiations on an effective and verifiable ban on chemical weapons.
However, the major point on which I must disagree with the right hon. Gentleman is the idea that we can afford to delay a decision on Trident for four or five years to see how these negotiations develop. For reasons that I shall explain, that is simply not a practical proposition. The decision must be made now.
We have been asked why we should not continue with Polaris and Chevaline. I confess that the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) baffled me somewhat. He said that he quite approved of the Polaris system and was content with that. However, he felt that it would be wrong to disturb the nuclear balance now. I remind the House that the decision that we are debating affects the entry into service of the Trident II (D5) system in about 1994. Therefore, we are not affecting the nuclear balance now. We are taking a decision now that will affect the balance in 1994. I was unable to follow my right hon. Friend on that point.
Sir Hugh Fraser: We are financially affected now.
Mr. Pattie: As to the submarines that we shall continue in service, we would face quite serious practical operational and engineering problems if we were to

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attempt to extend their life beyond the mid-1990s when Trident comes into service. By that date our Polaris submarines would be over 25 years old. The maintenance and support task of keeping them running to that point would be major. To seek to go beyond that would lead to growing risks of unforeseen maintenance problems, which could lead to extended refit periods and, in the worst case, to an inability to maintain the control cycle unbroken.
It goes without saying that the longer we seek to extend the lives of the submarines the greater the problems will become, as will the risks of not being able to maintain a continuous deterrent. Operationally, there will also be problems. The whole aim of a strategic nuclear deterrent submarine is to remain undetected by opposing antisubmarine forces. That calls, above all, for quietness in operation. Our Polaris submarines are extremely good in that respect, but the Soviet Union is improving its ASW capability.
Sir Frederick Burden: This matter causes great concern. During the NATO Ocean Safari operation the admiral in charge of submarines stated that the Russian diesel-electric submarines were deadly because of their silence. May we have an undertaking that our nuclear submarines will be as silent as the Russian equivalents, which have the edge on us?
Mr. Pattie: Nuclear submarines are noisier than diesel submarines. When a diesel submarine is operating at its best depth it is extremely difficult to detect.
Some critics of the Trident decision argue that even if we cannot sensibly run the Polaris beyond the mid-1990s, the right course would be to instal Polaris missiles with Chevaline in new submarines. Even if one ignores all the arguments about the impracticality and imprudence of seeking to base our strategic deterrent on Polaris and Chevaline to the end of the century and beyond, that still does not make sense.
If we contemplated that, we should have to build submarines capable at some point in their life of accommodating a different missile. As the recent open government document demonstrated, the biggest single element in the cost of the Trident programme is the submarines. On the question of a fifth boat, I have already explained why Polaris and Chevaline would not be appropriate as a strategic deterrent beyond the mid 1990s.
The Trident programme is major and complex. Even in the United States it is not entering service until the end of the decade. That illustrates the complexity of the planning task ahead. Our submarine design must be undertaken in detail. The D5 weapon system is still being developed by the United States. We must develop our own support facilities to match the introduction of the new submarines. For these reasons we need a decision now if we are to ensure a smooth and effective introduction of Trident to take over from Polaris before its effectiveness falls to a point where the credibility of our deterrent might be in question.
As the right hon. Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert) said, command and control is a key area. It involves the crucial question of the maintenance of Government control over our strategic deterrent in a sensitive area. Our objectives have been achieved by a high standard with Polaris. Our plans for Trident will build on that success and exploit improvements in technology. We have made appropriate financial provisions both in the
106
estimated cost of Trident and, as appropriate, in other parts of the defence budget. We have considerable diversity and redundancy in our communications in that field. We already employ VLF capabilities, and we are pursuing improvements in that respect.
Reference has been made to the United States. We are in close touch with the United States, and in particular ELF is a potential capability on which we are keeping in close touch with the United States.
Many comments have been made outside the House about the importance of submarine-launched cruise missiles. In the interests of time I shall return to that on another occasion.
Questions have also been raised about the effect upon the conventional capability. The Government have repeatedly made it clear that no other use of the resources that we propose to spend on Trident could possibly contribute as much to our collective deterrent. The Labour Government said in their 1975 defence White Paper:
"The Polaris force …. provides a unique European contribution to NATO's strategic capability out of all proportion to the small fraction of our defence budget which it costs to maintain."
We could not have said it better ourselves. Even allowing for the very substantial cost of procuring the Trident system to replace Polaris over the life of the force, it will provide a complete capability for a very small fraction of the defence budget, averaging 3 per cent. over the procurement period and less than 2 per cent. in running costs thereafter.
I can also confirm, as I know that this has caused anxiety in some parts of the House, that the same arrangements for funding will obtain for Trident as obtained for Polaris.
My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks asked about the change in the percentages with the change from C4 to D5. The actual estimate of something less than 45 per cent. for our D5 plan reflects not only the extra cost of the D5 system but the change in the rate of exchange since the C4 decision was taken in July 1980.
A number of hon. Members referred to the possible United Kingdom industrial stake in the Trident programme. This was treated with the usual gloom by the right hon. Member for Llanelli. We shall have to wait and see. The manufacture of the submarine and the warheads is to be undertaken in the United Kingdom. Those contracts alone will provide up to 20, 000 direct jobs and a further 15, 000 indirect jobs to United Kingdom industry during the peak years of the programme. In addition, there will be the work that we obtain under subcontract from United States industry on the missile itself.
Mr. Michael Colvin rose——
Mr. Pattie: I do not think that there is time for me to give way.
As a result of the discussion between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and Secretary of State Weinberger, I have no doubt of the sincerity of the current United States Administration in saying that they will allow United Kingdom industry to compete for subcontracts on equal terms with its United States counterparts and will do all that they can to assist it in making bids. The right hon. Member for Deptford suggested that past promises on this have not been met. That is simply not true.
Mr. Duffy: Look at the record.
Mr. Pattie: The hon. Member for Sheffield, Att ercliffe (Mr. Duffy) says that that is not true. I shall look at the record. I shall also tell him that the offset targets have been set, for example, on Subharpoon, TOW and Chinook and that there is no indication whatever that those targets will not be met. Indeed, on Harpoon and Chinook, United States industry is well ahead in meeting the targets set at the time when the contracts were placed. The offset arrangements, and the award in the past year of major United States contracts for the AV8B, the Hawk and the Rapier, with a potential value to the United Kingdom industry of more than £1, 000 million, show that United Kingdom industry can compete in the United States market. I acknowledge that last year Congress introduced measures in certain areas which caused difficulties, but we hope that those difficulties will be resolved in the near future.
We have heard much today about the moral arguments. We believe that it is perfectly proper and morally correct for a British Government to take whatever steps they judge essential to safeguard not only the national interest but the physical integrity of this country. We must retain the ability at any time in the future to present a seamless web of deterrence to any foreign power seeking to have its way by force or the threat of force. There is nothing remotely immoral about that. Indeed, it is the instinctive belief of the British people that this duty will be properly discharged by any British Government, as it has been in the past 20 years.
We know the Labour Party position. We are less than sure about the SDP-Liberal alliance position. The right hon. Member for Devonport apparently speaks for both parties, but the victor of Hillhead has told us that Trident will be cancelled and we have heard something entirely different from the Liberal Party. In deciding on priorities, one can only wonder what priority would have been afforded by the people of Poland and Afghanistan to their defences, if they had had the chance. They were never given that opportunity. The House has the opportunity today to support the motion.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 215, Noes 301.

Division No. 108]

[10 pm

AYES

Abse, Leo

Clark, DrDavid (SShields)

Allaun, Frank

Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stolS)

Alton, David

Cohen, Stanley

Anderson, Donald

Coleman, Donald

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

Ashley, Rt Mon Jack

Conlan, Bernard

Ashton, Joe

Cook, Robin F.

Atkinson, N. (H'gey, )

Cowans, Harry

Bagier, GordonA.T.

Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g)

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

Barnett, RtHon Joel (H'wd)

Crowther, Stan

Benn, RtHonTony

Cryer, Bob

Ben nett, And rew (St 'kp 'tN)

Cunningham, DrJ. (W'h'n)

Bidwell, Sydney

Dalyell, Tam

Booth, RtHonAlbert

Davidson, Arthur

Boothroyd, MissBetty

Davies, RtHon Denzil (L'lli)

Bottomley, RtHonA. (M'b 'ro)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Bray, DrJeremy

Davis, Clinton (HackneyC)

Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

Brown, R. C. (N'castle W)

Deakins, Eric

Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

Buchan, Norman

Dewar, Donald

Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n&P)

Dixon, Donald

Campbell, Ian

Dobson, Frank

Canavan, Dennis

Dormand, jack

Carmichael, Neil

Douglas, Dick

108

Dubs, Alfred

Maxton, John

Duffy, A. E. P.

Maynard, MissJoan

Dunwoody, Hon MrsG.

Meacher, Michael

Eadie, Alex

Mellish, RtHonRobert

Eastham, Ken

Mikardo, Ian

Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E)

Miller, DrM.S.(E Kilbride)

Eills, R(NED'bysh're)

Mitchell, Austin(Grimsby)

English, Michael

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Ennals, RtHonDavid

Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

Morris, RtHon J. (Aberavon)

Evans, John (Newton)

Morton, George

Faulds, Andrew

Moyle, RtHonRoland

Field, Frank

Mulley, RtHonFrederick

Fitch, Alan

Newens, Stanley

Fitt, Gerard

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

Neill, Martin

Fletcher, Ted(Darlington)

Orme, RtHonStanley

Foot, RtHonMichael

Palmer, Arthur

Forrester, John

Park, George

Foster, Derek

Parker, John

Foulkes, George

Parry, Robert

Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)

Pavitt, Laurie

Freeson, RtHonReginald

Pendry, Tom

Garrett, John (NorwichS)

Powell, Raymond(Ogmore, )

Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

Prescott, John

George, Bruce

Race, Reg

Gilbert, RtHonDrJohn

Radice, Giles

Golding, John

Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

Graham, Ted

Richardson, jo

Grant, George(Morpeth)

Roberts, Albert(Normanton)

Hamilton, James(Bothwell)

Roberts, Ernest (HackneyN)

Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

Roberts, Gwilym(Cannock)

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Robertson, George

Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

Robinson, P. (BelfastE)

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Rooker, J.W.

Haynes, Frank

Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Rowlands, Ted

Heffer, EricS.

Ryman, John

Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)

Sever, John

Hollond, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)

Sheerman, Barry

HomeRobertson, John

Sheldon, RtHonR.

Homewood, William

Shore, RtHonPeter

Hooley, Frank

Short, MrsRenée

Howell, RtHonD.

Silkin, RtHon J. (Deptford)

Hoyle, Douglas

Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

Huckfield, Les

Silverman, Julius

Hughes, Mark(Durham)

Skinner, Dennis

Hughes, Robert (AberdeenN)

Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

Janner, HonGreville

Soley, Clive

Johnson, Walter (DerbyS)

Spearing, Nigel

Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

Spriggs, Leslie

Jones, Barry (EastFlint)

Stallard, A.W.

Kaufman, RtHonGerald

Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

Kerr, Russell

Stoddart, David

Kilfedder, JamesA.

Stott, Roger

Kilroy-Silk, Robert

Strang, Gavin

Kinnock, Neil

Straw, jack

Lambie, David

Summerskill, HonDrShirley

Lamborn, Harry

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

Lamond, James

Thomas, Jeffrey(Abertillery)

Leadbitter, Ted

Thomas, DrR. (Carmarthen)

Leighton, Ronald

Thorne, Stan (PrestonSouth)

Lestor, Miss Joan

Tilley, John

Lewis, Arthu r (N'ham NW)

Tinn, James

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Torney, Tom

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

Lyon, Alexander(York)

Wainwright, E. (DearneV)

McCartney, Hugh

Walker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster)

McDonald, DrOonagh

Watkins, David

McElhone, Frank

Welsh, Michael

McGuire, Michael(Ince)

White, FrankR.

McKay, Allen(Penistone)

White, J. (G'gowPollok)

McKelvey, William

Whitehead, Phillip

MacKenzie, RtHonGregor

Whitlock, William

McNamara, Kevin

Wigley, Dafydd

McTaggart, Robert

Willey, RtHon Frederick

Marshall, D(G'gowS'ton)

Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W)

Marshall, Jim (LeicesterS)

Wilson, Gordon (DundeeE)

Martin, M(G'gowS'burn)

Wilson, William (C'trySE)

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Winnick, David

109

Woodall, Alec

Tellers for the Ayes:

Woolmer, Kenneth

Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe and

Wright, Sheila

Dr. Edmund Marshall.

NOES

Adley, Robert

Edwards, RtHon N. (P'broke)

Aitken, Jonathan

Eggar, Tim

Alexander, Richard

Elliott, SirWilliam

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Emery, Sir Peter

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Eyre, Reginald

Ancram, Michael

Fairbairn, Nicholas

Arnold, Tom

Fairgrieve, Sir Russell

Aspinwall, Jack

Faith, Mrs Sheila

Atkins, Rt Hon H. (S'thorne)

Farr, John

Atkins, Robert (PrestonN)

Fell, Sir Anthony

Baker, Kenneth (St.M'bone)

Fenner, Mrs Peggy

Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

Finsberg, Geoffrey

Banks, Robert

Fisher, Sir Nigel

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N)

Bendall, Vivian

Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles

Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

Fookes, Miss Janet

Best, Keith

Forman, Nigel

Bevan, David Gilroy

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Fox, Marcus

Biggs-Davison, Sir John

Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

Blackburn, john

Fry, Peter

Blaker, Peter

Gardiner, George(Reigate)

Body, Richard

Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

Glyn, Dr Alan

Bowden, Andrew

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Boyson, Dr Rhodes

Goodhew, Sir Victor

Braine, Sir Bernard

Goodlad, Alastair

Bright, Graham

Gorst, john

Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

Gow, Ian

Brooke, Hon Peter

Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

Brotherton, Michael

Gray, Hamish

Brown, Michael (Brigg&Sc'n)

Grieve, Percy

Browne, John (Winchester)

Griffiths, E. (B'ySt. Edm'ds)

Bruce-Gardyne, John

Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

Bryan, Sir Paul

Grist, Ian

Buchanan-Smith, Rt. Hon. A.

Grylls, Michael

Buck, Antony

Gummer, John Selwyn

Budgen, Nick

Hamilton, Hon A.

Bulmer, Esmond

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Burden, Sir Frederick

Hampson, Dr Keith

Butcher, John

Hannam, John

Butler, Hon Adam

Haselhurst, Alan

Cadbury, Jocelyn

Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

Carlisle, John (Luton West)

Hawkins, Paul

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Hawksley, Warren

Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

Hayhoe, Barney

Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

Heddle, John

Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul

Henderson, Barry

Chapman, Sydney

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Churchill, W.S.

Hicks, Robert

Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Hill, james

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Cockeram, Eric

Holland, Philip(Carlton)

Colvin, Michael

Hooson, Tom

Cope, john

Hordern, Peter

Corrie, John

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Costain, Sir Albert

Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd)

Cranborne, Viscount

Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

Critchley, julian

Hunt, David (Wirral)

Crouch, David

Hunt, John(Ravensbourne)

Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Dickens, Geoffrey

Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

Dorrell, Stephen

Jessel, Toby

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Dover, Denshore

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

Dunlop, john

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

Durant, Tony

Kershaw, Sir Anthony

Dykes, Hugh

Kimball, Sir Marcus

Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

King, Rt Hon Tom

110

Kitson, Sir Timothy

Ridley, Hon Nicholas

Lamont, Norman

Ridsdale, Sir Julian

Lang, Ian

Rifkind, Malcolm

Latham, Michael

Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

Lawrence, Ivan

Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Lee, john

Rossi, Hugh

Le Marchant, Spencer

Rost, Peter

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Royle, Sir Anthony

Lester, Jim (Beeston)

Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

Lewis, Kenneth(Rutland)

St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Scott, Nicholas

Loveridge john

Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Luce, Richard

Shaw, Michael(Scarborough)

Lyell, Nicholas

Shelton, William(Streatham)

MacGregor, John

Shepherd, Colin(Hereford)

MacKay, John (Argyll)

Shepherd, Richard

Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

Silvester, Fred

McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

Sims, Roger

McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)

Skeet, T. H. H.

McQuarrie, Albert

Smith, Dudley

Marland, Paul

Speed, Keith

Marlow, Antony

Speller, Tony

Marshal!, Michael(Arundel)

Spence, john

Marten, Rt Hon Neil

Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)

Mates, Michael

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus

Sproat, Iain

Mawby, Ray

Squire, Robin

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Stainton, Keith

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Stanbrook, Ivor

Mayhew, Patrick

Stanley, john

Mellor, David

Steen, Anthony

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Stevens, Martin

Miller, Hal(B'grove)

Stewart, A. (E Renfrewshire)

Mills, Iain(Meriden)

Stewart, Ian(Hitchin)

Mills, Peter (West Devon)

Stokes, john

Miscampbell, Norman

Stradling Thomas, J.

Moate, Roger

Tapsell, Peter

Molyneaux, james

Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

Monro, Sir Hector

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Moore, john

Temple-Morris, Peter

Morgan, Geraint

Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

Thompson, Donald

Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

Thorne, Neil(Ilford South)

Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

Thornton, Malcolm

Mudd, David

Townend, John(Bridlington)

Murphy, Christopher

Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

Myles, David

Trippier, David

Neale, Gerrard

Trotter, Neville

Neubert, Michael

van Straubenzee, Sir W.

Newton, Tony

Vaughan, Dr Gerard

Normanton, Tom

Viggers, Peter

Nott, Rt Hon John

Waddington, David

Onslow, Cranley

Wakeham, john

Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

Waldegrave, Hon William

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

Page, Richard (SW Herts)

Walker, B. (Perth)

Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

Parris, Matthew

Waller, Gary

Patten, Christopher(Bath)

Walters, Dennis

Patten, John (Oxford)

Ward, John

Pattie, Geoffrey

Warren, Kenneth

Pawsey, James

Watson, John

Percival, Sir Ian

Wells, Bowen

Peyton, Rt Hon John

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Pink, R. Bonner

Wheeler, john

Pollock, Alexander

Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

Porter, Barry

Whitney, Raymond

Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down)

Wickenden, Keith

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Wilkinson, john

Prior, Rt Hon James

Winterton, Nicholas

Proctor, K. Harvey

Wolfson, Mark

Pym, Rt Hon Francis

Young, Sir George(Acton)

Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

Younger, Rt Hon George

Rathbone, Tim

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Tellers for the Noes:

Renton, Tim

Mr. Anthony Berry and Mr. Carol Mather.

Rhodes James, Robert

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Question accordingly negatived.
Maom Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 297, Noes 248.

Division No. 109]

[10.15 pm

AYES

Adley, Robert

Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

Aitken, jonathan

Eggar, Tim

Alexander, Richard

Elliott, SirWilliam

Alison, RtHonMichael

Emery, SirPeter

Amery, RtHonJulian

Eyre, Reginald

Ancram, Michael

Fairbairn, Nicholas

Arnold, Tom

Fairgrieve, SirRussell

Aspinwall, Jack

Faith, MrsSheila

Atkins, RtHonH. (S'thorne)

Farrjohn

Atkins, Robert(PrestonN)

Fell, SirAnthony

Baker, Kenneth. (St.M'bone)

Fenner, MrsPeggy

Baker, Nicholas (NDorset)

Finsberg, Geoffrey

Banks, Robert

Fisher, SirNigel

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'ghN)

Bendall, Vivian

Fletcher-Cooke, SirCharles

Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

Fookes, MissJanet

Best, Keith

Forman, Nigel

Bevan, DavidGilroy

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Biffen, RtHonJohn

Fox, Marcus

Biggs-Davison, SirJohn

Fraser, Peter (SouthAngus)

Blackbum, John

Fry, Peter

Blaker, Peter

Gardiner, George (Reigate)

Body, Richard

Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

Bonsor, SirNicholas

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Boscawen, HonRobert

Gilmour, RtHonSir Ian

Bottomley, Peter(W'wichW)

Glyn, DrAlan

Bowden, Andrew

Goodhew, SirVictor

Boyson, DrRhodes

Goodlad, Alastair

Braine, SirBernard

Gorst, John

Bright, Graham

Gow, Ian

Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

Grant, Anthony (HarrowC)

Brooke, HonPeter

Gray, Hamish

Brotherton, Michael

Grieve, Percy

Brown, Michael (Brigg&S'n)

Griffiths, E. (B''ySt.Edm'ds)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Griffiths, Peter Portsm'thN)

Bruce-Gardyne, John

Grist, Ian

Bryan, SirPaul

Grylls, Michael

Buchanan-Smith, Rt.Hon.A.

Gummer, JohnSelwyn

Buck, Antony

Hamilton, HonA.

Budgen, Nick

Hamilton, Michael(Salisbury)

Bulmer, Esmond

Hampson, DrKeith

Burden, SirFrederick

Hannam, John

Butcher, John

Haselhurst, Alan

Butler, HonAdam

Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

Cadbury, Jocelyn

Hawkins, Paul

Carlisle, john (LutonWest)

Hawksley, Warren

Carlisle, Kenneth(Lincoln)

Hayhoe, Barney

Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

Heddle, John

Chalker, Mrs.Lynda

Henderson, Barry

Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul

Heseltine, RtHonMichael

Chapman, Sydney

Hicks, Robert

Churchill, W.S.

Higgins, RtHonTerenceL.

Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)

Hill, James

Clark, SirW. (CroydonS)

Hogg, HonDouglas(Gr'th'm)

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Holland, Philip(Carlton)

Cockeram, Eric

Hooson, Tom

Colvin, Michael

Hordern, Peter

Cope, john

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Corrie, John

Howell, RtHonD. (G'ldf'd)

Costain, SirAlbert

Howell, Ralph(NNorfolk)

Cranborne, Viscount

Hunt, David(Wirral)

Critchley, Julian

Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

Crouch, David

Hurd, RtHonDouglas

Dean, Paul (NorthSomerset)

Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

Dickens, Geoffrey

Jessel, Toby

Dorrell, Stephen

JohnsonSmith, Geoffrey

Douglas-Hamilton, LordJ.

Jopling, RtHonMichael

Dover, Denshore

Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

Kaberry, SirDonald

Dunlop, John

Kellett-Bowman, MrsElaine

Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

Kershaw, SirAnthony

Durant, Tony

Kimball, SirMarcus

Dykes, Hugh

King, RtHonTom

Eden, RtHonSirJohn

Kitson, SirTimothy

112

Lamont, Norman

Ridsdale, SirJulian

Lang, Ian

Rifkind, Malcolm

Latham, Michael

Rippon, RtHonGeoffrey

Lawrence, Ivan

Roberts, M. (CardiffNW)

Lawson, RtHonNigel

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Lee, john

Rossi, Hugh

LeMarchant, Spencer

Rost, Peter

Lennox-Boyd, HonMark

Royle, SirAnthony

Lester, Jim (Beeston)

Sainsbury, HonTimothy

Lems, Kenneth(Rutland)

St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Scott, Nicholas

Loveridge, john

Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Luce, Richard

Shaw, Michael(Scarborough)

Lyell, Nicholas

Shelton, William(Streatham)

MacGregorJohn

Shepherd, Colin(Hereford)

MacKay, John (Argyll)

Shepherd, Richard

Macmillan, RtHonM.

Silvester, Fred

McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

Sims, Roger

McNair-Wilson, P. (NewF'st)

Skeet, T. H. H.

McQuarrie, Albert

Smith, Dudley

Marland, Paul

Speller, Tony

Marlow, Antony

Spencejohn

Marshall, Michael(Arundel)

Spicer, Jim (WestDorset)

Marten, RtHonNeil

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Mates, Michael

Sproat, Iain

Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus

Squire, Robin

Mawby, Ray

Stainton, Keith

Mawhinney, DrBrian

Stanbrook, lvor

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Stanley, john

Mayhew, Patrick

Steen, Anthony

Mellor, David

Stevens, Martin

Meyer, SirAnthony

Stewart, A. (ERenfrewshire)

Miller, Hal(B'grove)

Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

Mills, Iain(Meriden)

Stokes, john

Mills, Peter (WestDevon)

StradlingThomas, J.

Miscampbell, Norman

Tapsell, Peter

Moate, Roger

Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

Monro, SirHector

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Moore, john

Temple-Morris, Peter

Morgan, Geraint

Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

Morris, M. (N'hamptonS)

Thompson, Donald

Morrison, HonC. (Devizes)

Thorne, Nei1 (IlfordSouth)

Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

Thornton, Malcolm

Mudd, David

Townend, John (Bridlington)

Murphy, Christopher

Townsend, CyrilD, (B'heath)

Myles, David

Trippier, David

Neale, Gerrard

Trotter, Neville

Neubert, Michael

van Straubenzee, SirW.

Newton, Tony

Vaughan, DrGerard

Normanton, Tom

Viggers, Peter

Nott, RtHonJohn

Waddington, David

Onslow, Cranley

Wakeham, john

Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

Waldegrave, HonWilliam

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

Page, Richard (SWHerts)

Walker, B. (Perth)

Parkinson, RtHonCecil

Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

Parris, Matthew

Waller, Gary

Patten, Christopher(Bath)

Walters, Dennis

Patten, john (Oxford)

Wardjohn

Pattie, Geoffrey

Warren, Kenneth

Pawsey, James

Watson, john

Percival, Sir Ian

Wells, Bowen

Peyton, RtHonJohn

Wells, John(Maidstone)

Pink, R.Bonner

Wheeler, john

Pollock, Alexander

Whitelaw, RtHonWilliam

Porter, Barry

Whitney, Raymond

Prentice, RtHonReg

Wickenden, Keith

Prior, RtHonJames

Wilkinson, john

Proctor, K. Harvey

Winterton, Nicholas

Pym, RtHonFrancis

Wolfson, Mark

Raison, RtHonTimothy

Young, SirGeorge(Acton)

Rathbone, Tim

Younger, RtHonGeorge

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Renton, Tim

Tellers for the Ayes:

Rhodes James, Robert

Mr. Anthony Berry and Mr. Carol Mather.

RhysWilliams, SirBrandon

Ridley, HonNicholas

113

NOES

Abse, Leo

Eastham, Ken

Allaun, Frank

Edwards, R. (W'hampt'nSE)

Alton, David

Ellis, R. (NED'bysh're)

Anderson, Donald

English, Michael

Archer, RtHonPeter

Ennals, RtHonDavid

Ashley, RtHonJack

Evans, loan (Aberdare)

Ashton, Joe

Evans, John (Newton)

Atkinson, N. (H'gey, )

Faulds, Andrew

Bagier, GordonA.T.

Field, Frank

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

Fitch, Alan

Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

Fitt, Gerard

Beith, A.J.

Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

Benn, RtHonTony

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Bennett, Andrew(St'kp'tN)

Foot, RtHonMichael

Bidwell, Sydney

Ford, Ben

Booth, RtHonAlbert

Forrester, John

Boothroyd, MissBetty

Foster, Derek

Bottomley, RtHonA. (M''b'ro)

Foulkes, George

Bradley, Tom

Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)

Bray, DrJeremy

Freeson, RtHonReginald

Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

Freud, Clement

Brown, HughD. (Provan)

Garrett, John (NorwichS)

Brown, R. C. (N'castle W)

Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'yS)

George, Bruce

Brovm, Ron(E'burgh, Leith)

Gilbert, RtHonDrJohn

Buchan, Norman

Ginsburg, David

Cal!aghan, Jim (Midd't'n&P)

Golding, John

Campbell, Ian

Graham, Ted

Canavan, Dennis

Grant, George(Morpetn)

Carmichael, Neil

Grant, John (IslingtonC)

Cartwright, John

Hamilton, James(Botnwell)

Clark, DrDavid (SShields)

Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stolS)

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Cohen, Stanley

Hart, RtHonDameJudith

Coleman, Donald

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Conlan, Bernard

Heffer, EricS.

Cook, Robin F.

Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)

Cowans, Harry

Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)

Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g)

HomeRobertson, John

Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

Homewood, William

Crawshaw, Richard

Hooley, Frank

Crowther, Stan

Horam, John

Cryer, Bob

Howell, RtHonD.

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Howells, Geraint

Cunningham, G. (IslingtonS)

Hoyle, Douglas

Cunningham, DrJ. (W'h'n)

Huckfield, Les

Dalyell, Tam

Hughes, Mark(Durham)

Davidson, Arthur

Hughes, Robert (AberdeenN)

Davies, RtHon Denzil (L'lli)

Janner, HonGreville

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Johnson, Walter (DerbyS)

Davis, Clinton (HackneyC)

Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

Davis, Terry (B 'ham, Stechf'd)

Jones, Barry (East Flint)

Deakins, Eric

Kauf man, Rt Hon Gerald

Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

Kerr, Russell

Dewar, Donald

Kilfedder, JamesA.

Dixon, Donald

Kilroy-Silk, Robert

Dobson, Frank

Kinnock, Neil

Dormand, jack

Lambie, David

Douglas, Dick

Lamborn, Harry

Douglas-Mann, Bruce

Lamond, james

Dubs, Alfred

Leadbitter, Ted

Duffy, A. E. P.

Leighton, Ronald

Dunn, JamesA.

Lestor, MissJoan

Dunwoody, Hon MrsG.

Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)

Eadie, Alex

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

114

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Rooker, J. W.

Lyon, Alexander(York)

Roper, john

Lyons, Edward (Bradf'dW)

Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)

Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

Rowlands, Ted

McDonald, DrOonagh

Ryman, john

McElhone, Frank

Sandelson, Neville

McGuire, Michael (Ince)

Severjohn

McKay, Allen (Penistone)

Sheerman, Barry

McKelvey, William

Sheldon, RtHonR.

MacKenzie, RtHonGregor

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Maclennan, Robert

Short, MrsRenée

McNally, Thomas

Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)

McNamara, Kevin

Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

McTaggart, Robert

Silverman, julius

Magee, Bryan

Skinner, Dennis

Marshall, D(G'gowS'ton)

Smith, Rt Hon J. (NLanark)

Marshall, DrEdmund (Goole)

Soley, Clive

Marshall, Jim (LeicesterS)

Spearing, Nigel

Martir, M(G'gowS'burn)

Spriggs, Leslie

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Stallard, A.W.

Maxtonjohn

Steel, Rt Hon David

Maynard, MissJoan

Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

Meacher, Michael

Stoddart, David

Mellish, RtHonRobert

Stott, Roger

Mikardo, Ian

Strang, Gavin

Miller, DrM.S. (EKilbride)

Strawjack

Mitchell, Austin(Grimsby)

Summerskill, HonDrShirley

Mitchell, R.C. (Soton Itchen)

Taylor, MrsAnn (Bolton W)

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

Thomas, DrR.(Carmarthen)

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Thorne, Stan (PrestonSouth)

Morton, George

Tilley, john

Moyle, RtHonRoland

Tinn, james

Mulley, RtHonFrederick

Torney, Tom

Newens, Stanley

Varley, RtHonEricG.

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

Wainwright, E. (Dearne V)

Ogden, Eric

Wainwright, R. (ColneV)

Halloran, Michael

Walker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster)

Neill, Martin

Watkins, David

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Wellbeloved, james

Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

Welsh, Michael

Palmer, Arthur

White, FrankR.

Park, George

White, J. (G'gowPollok)

Parker, John

Whitehead, Phillip

Parry, Robert

Whitlock, William

Pavitt, Laurie

Wigley, Dafydd

Pendry, Tom

Willey, RtHon Frederick

Penhaligon, David

Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W)

Powell, Raymond(Ogmore)

Williams, Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby)

Prescott, john

Wilson, Gordon (DundeeE)

Race, Reg

Wilson, William (C'trySE)

Radice, Giles

Winnick, David

Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

Woodall, Alec

Richardson, jo

Woplmer, Kenneth

Roberts, Albert(Normanton)

Wrigglesworth, Ian

Roberts, Ernest (HackneyN)

Wright, Sheila

Roberts, Gwilym(Cannock)

Robertson, George

Tellers for the Noes:

Robinson, G. (CoventryNW)

Mr. Hugh McCartney and Mr. Frank Haynes.

Rodgers, RtHonWilliam

Question accordingly agreed to,
Resolved,
That this House endorses the Government's decision to maintain a strategic nuclear deterrent and to choose the Trident II (D5) missile system as the successor to the Polaris force.

Wool Textile Industry
10.25 pm
The Under-Secretary of State for Industry (Mr. John MacGregor): I beg to move,
That the draft Wool Textile Industry (Export Promotion Levy) (Amendment) Order 1982, which was laid before this House on 2nd March, be approved.
Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to take the draft Wool Textile Industry (Scientific Research Levy) (Amendment) Order 1982.
Mr. MacGregor: The two orders are closely connected and they can most conveniently be dealt with together. I should explain that it is necessary for there to be two separate orders, although they are closely connected, as the purpose of the two levies is different. One levy is for scientific research into the technical problems of the industry, carried out by WIRA—formerly the Wool Industry Research Association—and the other for the promotion of exports of woollen goods effected by the National Wool Textile Export Corporation.
The effect of the orders, which are under the authority of the Industrial Organisation and Development Act 1947, is to provide for the amendment, first, of Statutory Instrument 1970/349—The Wool Textile Industry (Scientific Research Levy) Order 1970—as amended by Statutory Instrument 1971/881—The Wool Textile Industry (Scientific Research Levy) Amendment Order 1971—and, secondly, of Statutory Instrument 1970/348—The Wool Textile Industry (Export Promotion Levy) Order 1970—as amended by Statutory Instrument 1971/880—The Wool Textile Industry (Export Promotion Levy) (Amendment) Order 1971. I apologise for those details, but I wished to get them on the record. I hope that what I now say will be a little clearer.
The changes proposed in the orders are twofold. Perhaps the most significant one is that the scientific research levy shall cease to be payable in the wool textile industry after the levy period ending on 31 March 1983. The other is that the orders provide that the level of exemption from liability to pay the two levies—for scientific research and export promotion together—will be increased with effect from the current levy period ending on 31 March 1982.
It might be helpful if I explain at this point a little of the background to these statutory levies, which were established in 1950. The scientific research levy was introduced to provide funds for scientific research carried out by WIRA. Those funds replaced grant hitherto paid by the Government in one form or another since 1918. The export promotion levy was introduced to provide funds for the work of the National Wool Textile Export Corporation, which had been financed since 1941 by the Board of Trade. The objective of the levies was to spread the cost of research and export promotion aimed at benefiting the industry as a whole on as equitable a basis as possible to all firms within the industry. The proceeds of those levies are paid over, without deduction, to the two organisations concerned.
As part of a general review of statutory levies in industry, the Department of Industry conducted a poll last year of companies which pay these wool textile industry statutory levies. The result of this poll showed that a significant majority of companies—58 per cent.—had
116
voted for the termination of the scientific research levy and a small majority—51 per cent.—for the continuation of the export promotion levy. It is obviously right that the views expressed by a substantial majority of the industry should be respected.
But having accepted the views of industry on the scientific research levy, we recognise the difficulties that would be created in discontinuing it overnight. Therefore, we have taken the view that a period of adjustment is desirable so that the industry and WIRA might consider possible alternative arrangements. In effect, the provisions of the draft order mean that the levy would be phased out over a period of about two years after the poll was conducted.
It is certainly not the intention of either the industry or the Government that research carried out by WIRA on behalf of the industry as a whole should cease to exist, but rather that as a result of the draft order, and a new system of funding to which it would inevitably give rise, WIRA should become more commercially oriented and responsive to the needs of the industry that it serves. I know that WIRA is confident about its own future in the post-levy period. Many firms have intimated that they would be prepared to contribute by voluntary subscription. It is my belief that a move from a statutory levy to voluntary support, combined with greater reliance on charges for specific services, represents the most effective way of securing this change in direction.
As I have said, both orders contain provisions to assist at once the smaller firms in the industry by raising, with effect from 1 April 1982, the exemption level below which firms do not have to pay levy. Both levies are collected at the same time on one assessment form. The Department of Industry then divides the proceeds in the appropriate proportions between the two recipient bodies. The exemption limit for both levies is therefore the same. The levies are collected in arrears, the collection commencing on 1 April 1982 relating to the levy period 1 October 1981 to 31 March 1982. The present position is that companies are exempted from making payments where the assessed amount would be just under £5, or less, in any six-monthly levy period.
The orders would increase that exemption limit to just under £100 per levy period. At present, about 70 companies, out of nearly 700 assessed for levy, are exempted from payment. The proposed increase in the limits will exempt approximately 200 further companies. That is a substantial increase and in suggesting it, we have, of course, had to have regard to section 9 of the Industrial Organisation and Development Act 1947, which requires that the authority making the order shall satisfy itself
"that the incidence of the charges as between different classes of undertakings in the industry will be in accordance with a fair principle."
We are so satisfied, for three reasons. First, these new exemptions will not increase the levy payable by those which also remain liable. They will pay the same as before. Secondly, the new exemptions will not cause a significant loss of revenue to WIRA and the export corporation. That is important. The loss will be less than 4 per cent. of the levy income of those bodies. Thirdly, many of these smaller companies have, in practice, received little benefit from the activities that the levies finance.
At present the scientific research levy yields about £411, 000 per year and represents about 27 per cent. of

117
WIRA's total income. The remainder of its income is derived from contributions from the Department of Industry towards expenditure on approved Textile Research Council contracts, subscriptions, rent, royalties and the like. The export promotion levy yields about £365, 000 per year and represents over 85 per cent. of the export corporation's total income.
It is estimated that under the proposals that we are considering, WIRA's income will be reduced by about £11, 700 and the export corporation's by about £10, 400 in a full year, or less than 4 per cent. of the amount that it receives from levies. However, the precise amount is difficult to calculate with certainty, because the levies are based by reference to levels of emoluments and weights of fibre supplied, which will obviously vary from one year to another.
As required by the 1947 Act, the Department has consulted organisations representative of persons carrying on the business and those employed in the industry. The industry's representative organisation, the Confederation of British Wool Textiles, supports the proposed changes. The two unions that I consulted—the National Union of Dyers, Bleachers and Textile Workers and the General and Municipal Workers Union—would prefer that both levies should continue. We have, of course, taken serious account of that view from the organisations representing persons employed in the industry. However, we have decided that the scientific research levy should, on balance, be phased out. The matter has been discussed also with WIRA and the National Wool Textile Export Corporation, which have accepted the proposed amendments to the orders, which are essentially based on the wishes of the industry.
Mr. K. J. Woolmer: From the figures that the Minister has presented, I understand that he will exempt a firm which, at the most, would pay £100 every six months. If a firm were employing 20 people, that would be about 20p per week per employee. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that a firm of that size would not benefit from a research contribution of 20p per employee? Is it not a sad commentary on the industry's approach that it does not think it worth while to spend 20p per employee on research and development?
Mr. MacGregor: I do not think that that is the point. The point is whether there should be a compulsory statutory levy.
Dr. John Cunningham: On the same point, is it not the case that the unions—including the General and Municipal Workers Union, of which I am a sponsored Member—have told the Minister that one of the problems is that in other countries this kind of research work takes place, leading to new products, better products, and better skills in the industry? Is not the abolition of such schemes one of the reasons why we cannot compete?
Mr. MacGregor: I would say to the hon. Gentleman, who is very fair minded in these matters, that we are not talking about stopping or in any way substantially reducing research in the industry. That is not the point of the second levy, which is concerned simply with the minute sums that are now being taken in levy from some companies. As at this moment, the figure below which levy is not payable is just under £5. That is a very small sum of money and
118
is scarcely worth the collecting, so I do not think that in putting forward this proposal we are in any sense attacking the concept of research. We are simply trying to reach a sensible level—I do not think that the level has been increased since 1970—below which the levy should not be payable. We sought to find a reasonable point at which the very small firms would not have to pay it.
Some of the firms will benefit from some of the research, but we are again talking about a very small contribution—only 4 per cent. of the total sums raised in levy, not 4 per cent. of the total income, for scientific research. Therefore, we are talking of a very tiny figure altogether. It is a reasonable line at which to draw the balance.
Mr. Bob Cryer rose——
Mr. MacGregor: Perhaps I could answer some of the points later, by leave of the House, if hon. Members wish to make their own contributions, as I can see that several of them wish to speak in the debate. I shall endeavour to answer all the points at the end.
The proposal that we have made on the lower limit for levies has been accepted by the industry as being very reasonable. Therefore, as I said, the amendments to the orders that I am now putting before the House have been accepted by WIRA—that is a very important point in relation to what the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Mr. Woolmer) and the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Dr. Cunningham) have asked me—and by the National Wool Textile Export Corporation concerning the export side, and they are essentially based on the wishes of the industry. I ask the House also to accept the wishes of the industry and to approve the orders.
10.38 pm
Mr. John Garrett: The orders are of great consequence for the wool textile industry; in fact, they are of some consequence for the House and its control of the Executive, judging by the Fifteenth Report of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. That Committee came to the conclusion that it was an unusual use of the powers of the Department conferred by section 9.
The report states that the orders substantially raise
" the level below which firms in the textile industry are exempt from paying research levy and the export promotion levyy … The levels are, however, raised very dramatically."
The report states that
"Section 9 …. provides for raising the levy by imposing charges 'on persons carrying on business in the industry' …. The Committee question the Department's general contention regarding the effect of the section."
The report goes on to say that
"the effect of the massive increases in the exemption limits proposed by the Order would be that some third of the firms in the industry would be exempt from the levy, as compared with the ten per cent. of firms that are at present exempt."
The Committee concludes that this is
"an unusual use of the powers conferred by section 9."
There is no doubt that the Department is pushing to the limits its statutory powers in laying the orders tonight. The Minister skated over this rather quickly in his introductory remarks and I shall want an assurance from the Minister that his legal advice is that the Department is not exceeding his powers. Few industries have been as badly hit as this industry has by the recession, by competition, and by the depression caused by this Government.

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The measure will weaken the industry further in research and development, because it has to be coupled with damage to applied research in textiles caused by cuts in university and college funding, the low and falling level of Government-funded research, and the inability of a grossly weakened industry to fund its own research. Ultimately, this measure leads to a loss of research funds of £300, 000 to £400, 000 a year. As a result, the industry will be less competitive, less innovative and less able to cope with change.
Employment in the industry has fallen from 82, 000 to 55, 000 in the past four years. As the Wool Textile and Clothing Industry Action Committee said in January 1982:
"it is difficult to see an end to the haemorrhage of jobs in the year ahead"
In the last two years, 300 mills have been closed, and 45 per cent. of the jobs in the wool textile industry in West Yorkshire were lost between 1973 and 1981.
We do not have to look far to find the reasons for that catastrophic collapse. Consumer demand for textiles and clothing fell by no less than 6 per cent. last year—more than in any other European country. Tight monetarist policies cut demand—that is what they are for. The Red Book published at the time of the Budget sees no end to the process, because consumer's expenditure is forecast to rise by ½ per cent. in the coming year—on very optimistic premises. So the outlook is no growth in the industry. Low growth means high unit costs and no funds for research.
The wool textile Neddy said last October:
"Many in the industry felt that there was little point in identifying and attempting to overcome problems when the main problem was the Government's economic policies"
The usual response from this Government—that of blaming workers—will not wash in this case, because industrial relations are good, wage settlements are modest, wages are well below the average in manufacturing industry, and there is a universal acceptance of new technology. Workers have responded to every proposal to save the industry, and they have been rewarded with the loss of their livelihoods. The industry has been subjected to a blitz of uncontrolled trade dumping, false labelling, unpoliced outward processing, and a tide of imports over which the Government appear to have no control. It is all evidence of a torpid Government watching an industry slide to destruction.
The condition of the industry and the Government's responsibility for it was clearly described in a report by the management consultants Werner International, produced for the Department of Industry. Its conclusions were so distasteful that the Department attempted to suppress the report. It was only pressure from Members of Parliament that made it available to the House, and the trade unions waited three months to see it. Werner said that the EEC had no effective policy for the wool textile and clothing industries in the Community, and that without a policy and strategy of its own the United Kingdom wool textile industry would continue to decline. Werner picked out the adverse factors—the high interest rates and substantial damage done to the industry by the high value of sterling.
However, the crucial issue identified by Werner concerned Government assistance to the industry in technical back-up and research and in export promotion, compared with France, Germany and Italy. The key passage of the Werner report discusses:
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"Do Other National Aid Schemes Give An Unfair Advantage?"—
to our competitors, that is. Its conclusion runs as follows:
"In consequence, although we cannot quantify the effect of these aids on the competitiveness of the United Kingdom, we are nevertheless of the opinion that in comparison with his Italian and French counterpart the manufacturer in the United Kingdom receives less assistance within a more limited range of programmes and that in comparison with all three continental participants the method of granting aid is less beneficial to this sector of industry'.
It went on:
"although the sector has benefited in the past from the wool and worsted scheme and from their location in West Yorkshire, the change in status of this area will now preclude it from any form of regional assistance for development or rehabilitation under Section Seven of the 1977 Industry Act".
That report is an essential background to tonight's debate. It shows the wool textile industry in a catastrophic condition, with the Government standing aside offering platitudes of good will and nothing else.
Research is essential for competitiveness in this industry. The research levy was established in 1950 to provide funds for the Wool Industry Research Association—WIRA—but it replaced a Government grant that had existed since 1918. When the referendum on the levy was tallied, it was found that 57 per cent. voted for abolition and 42 per cent. for continuance. About a quarter of the respondents said that they were willing to pay voluntarily. That might reduce the loss of funds to WIRA to about £300, 000. WIRA accepted the result, but it wanted the phasing out to run to 1984 because of the long lead time of some of its projects, yet this order ends the levy in 1982–83.
I have one question about which WIRA is concerned as a result of the tabling of these orders. The interim raising of the payment threshold exempts a total of 215 companies from payment. The Department knows which those companies are, but WIRA does not and it needs to know. The Department will not tell WIRA—there has been correspondence on the matter which, no doubt, has crossed the Minister's desk—and says that the information is confidential. Why? Where does the order say that it is confidential? Why cannot the Government get permission from these companies to say which are exempted from the levy so that WIRA no longer has to continue servicing them?
Much of the future work of WIRA, which is acknowledged throughout the world as a centre of excellence in this area, depends on what funds the industry is willing to contribute voluntarily, but, as orders fall away, the willingness and ability to subscribe to WIRA voluntarily will fall. If so, important research into new management and manufacturing methods, machinery, fabric quality, fire safety of fabric and consumer protection will also fall away to the detriment of production, employment, trade and consumer interests.
After all, we have an example of what has happened in a similar situation in a similar industry. The Shirley Institute lost its levy some years ago and its income fell by a third. As contributing firms got into difficulties, they cut their voluntary contributions. Today, the Shirley Institute obtains 7 to 8 per cent. of its funding from income from member firms and a quarter from foreign companies. Therefore, it can no longer contribute as well to the state of the art in manufacturing and design as it could before, and that is a permanent loss to the British textile industry.

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While WIRA's income is in jeopardy, there have been cuts in funds for wool textile research in universities and colleges. Dewsbury and Batley college of art textile department closed last year. I understand that the University of Bradford textile department faces closure next year, yet Bradford provides the industry with a third of its trained technologists. Research council funds for work on textiles in Huddersfield polytechnic are being reduced. There is already an exceptionally low level of direct Government funding for textile research. Of £83 million dedicated to the five requirements boards in 1981–82, only £1·75 million was earmarked for textiles and clothing, a proportion quite out of balance with the contribution those industries make to the economy.
That allocation should be increased. There should be a higher direct contribution to research by the Department. It should be raised from 25 per cent. to 50 per cent. of project costs.
According to a Comitextil study, the Government make the lowest percentage contribution to textile research of any EEC Government, and it has halved in the last five years. The Confederation of Wool Textiles has asked for a scheme of assistance the central feature of which is funds for product development; yet we see it being cut by this measure, by cuts in university education and by the inability of the industry to fund its own research.
Research in the industry is under-funded. It is no wonder that hard-pressed firms voted to end their contribution. However, a national interest is involved in the level of applied research in this and any other industry. Recession is a time when we should be spending more and not less.
We are pleased to learn that the export promotion levy is to continue. The National Wool Textile Corporation will lose about £12, 000 a year and will continue to receive £350, 000 a year. This could have been an opportunity to review our national effort. If funding for the National Wool Textile Corporation were at the 1950 level it would total £800, 000 a year. Today it is less than half that. The corporation, which has no Government funding, does valuable work in promoting exports, colour and design and in targeting key markets. It has far less money to spend than our main competitors. For example, in France there is a 10 per cent. sales levy for export promotion on the industry's output.
The wool textile Neddy has said that design and marketing is a weakness in the industry. WIRA has said that our industry lacks flair in design and marketing compared with Italy. Coming from a footwear producing area, I know how true that is.
The wool textile industry's marketing effort needs greater support, not less. The trade in wool textiles is barely in surplus, and that is despite our history of being a wool textile producing country.
The Government cut the national export promotion programme by £16 million in 1980. There were cuts in overseas missions, in trade fairs and market research, and yet our competitors stepped up national support in all those areas. Why do not the Government fund co-operative marketing at a regional level in West Yorkshire? Why do they not give manufacturers assistance to attack overseas markets?
We are faced with a Government who refuse to live up to their responsibilities for a major industry. My hon. Friends the Members for Huddersfield, East (Mr. Sheerman), Batley and Morley (Mr. Woolmer), Keighley
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(Mr. Cryer), Bradford, South (Mr. Torney) and Bradford, North (Mr. Ford) have argued to this effect time and again in the House. They should take back to West Yorkshire the message that the Government do not care for the industry and that they are willing to let it go to the wall.
Employment in the industry has fallen drastically by 31,000 in the last three or four years. The industry is dying because of Government neglect when our competitors are receiving Government help to make them more viable and competitive.
10.52 pm
Mr. K. J. Woolmer: I am opposed to both the orders. The proposal to abolish the wool textile industry's research levy in 1983 flies in the face of the evidence that more and better research, development and innovation are required, not only in production processes but in the products themselves. While the export promotion levy is to remain, although its coverage by firms will be reduced sharply, the Government have missed the opportunity to bring about a progressive and much-needed upgrading of the export effort in the industry.
About 45 per cent. of the British wool and worsted cloth production goes in exports. With increasing export competition, surely research, innovation, design, marketing and export development should be closely interwoven. It is wrong for the wool textile industry to be regarded as old and a yesterday industry that is losing financially to the declining giants or modern and futuristic technologies. The wool textile industry deserves and requires more positive and forceful development and encouragement. In the orders, the Government have failed the industry yet again.
I shall outline the importance of the industry to West Yorkshire. The industry involves much more than the production of cloth. It involves spinning and the production of tops. Since the Government came to office, unemployment in West Yorkshire has risen by 71,000, or 161 per cent. In 1980–81 textile and clothing workers lost 30,000 of their 70,000 jobs. That illustrates the importance of the industry to the area.
I shall briefly highlight the effect of that on individual communities, so that the House may understand why West Yorkshire looks especially closely at these orders. Since May 1979, unemployment has increased in Bradford by 133 per cent., in Leeds by 146 per cent., in Keighley by 192 per cent., in Dewsbury by 200 per cent., in Halifax by 218 per cent., and in Huddersfield, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield, East (Mr. Sheerman), by 237 per cent.—in the town which is the traditional home of the fine worsted industry of the British wool industry. The House will therefore understand why the orders are of great significance.
Yet those textile areas are to lose their assisted area status at the very time when they are losing so many jobs. Almost as an aside in this debate, therefore, I ask the Minister to consider yet again the forceful case made by the local authorities of West Yorkshire and to see whether it is not appropriate for them to retain the assisted area status that they are in danger of losing.
It is tempting to take the wool textile industry for granted and to assume that it will always remain prosperous, but the Wool Textile Economic Development Committee stated on page 1 of its 1980 report that

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"employment fell drastically in all sectors: total fibre consumption fell by 20 per cent., top production fell by 17 per cent., worsted yarn deliveries were down by 13 per cent., woollen yarn production decreased by 23 per cent., fabric deliveries were down by 14 per cent. and employment fell by 21 per cent."
That situation applies right across the board in the wool textile industry. The Government have managed to preside over a massive decline. Yet their reaction is to come to the House today with orders that reduce the effort of the industry in research and in export promotion.
Mr. Gary Waller: The hon. Gentleman should be reminded that, as my hon. Friend said, the industry itself is in favour of this move. It is certainly not true to say that the industry is backward looking. Many of the jobs which, tragically, have been lost have gone because the industry has modernised itself and put in new machines. Many companies are producing as much or more material than they did 10 years ago with a fraction of the number of workers. Therefore, it is certainly not a backward-looking industry and it supports the change proposed by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Woolmer: The hon. Gentleman will see that the unemployment figures reveal two striking characteristics. One is that under the Labour Government, under the wool industry scheme, employment stabilised, but in the last two or three years it has fallen massively. The hon. Gentleman himself represents a textile area. He will not go back to West Yorkshire and deny that employment has fallen massively because of the depressed home market, major imports penetration and the problems of export markets.
The 1981 annual report of the Wool Textile Economic Development Committee, in tables 2 to 6, which I suggest that hon. Members should study at their leisure, reveals a very worrying feature. The tables show that wool textile exports, which until 1977 were rising, then became stagnant and in the last couple of years have been declining. The decline in exports is therefore another very worrying feature in the wool textile industry. Most worrying is the decline in woollen and especially worsted fabrics—the type of product for which we have expected exports to continue to improve year after year.
There is no doubt that the industry has been hit by a deep recession in the home market, growing import penetration and now by threatened export markets. I do not say that falling export markets—and they are falling in volume terms—are the entire problem. The problem is caused in part by an overvalued pound for the manufacturing industries, in part by new and growing competitors—it is easy to forget that China is the largest purchaser of New Zealand wool—and in part by the wool textile industry's lack of drive into new national and product markets.
I recognise the efforts made by the industry, the unions, the export corporation and the little NEDC—bigger and new ideas have been introduced into marketing and design—but the response of the industry has often been inadequate and much more needs to be done.
The little NEDC of the textile industry recently asked the chairman of the Textile Research Council to give his views on research and development in the industry. He said that in the past eight years:
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"industry initiatives in seeking government support for work of an innovatory nature have been running at a miserably low level. Whilst first reactions were that industry was being dilatory and short-sighted, it is now clear that this low level is a reflection of low profitability within the textile sector."
The chairman went on to point out that it was likely that the Government's hope and aspiration that the industry in a deep recession would be willing to take over these responsibilities was little more than pie in the sky. There is serious concern in the textile and clothing industries, not only about the cuts in research and export marketing, but about the cuts in textile research and training in further and higher education.
In a recent letter to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science said that he accepted that there was a sharp downturn in the volume and range of textile courses available and that he shared the anxiety of the textile industry about the viability of some of the remaining provision.
The industrial training boards are to be wound up by April 1983, with the exception of that serving the clothing industry, yet all this is taking place at a time when the textile industry should be increasing the supply of technically qualified people who will be required to produce and to manage new products and new production technology.
What is the Government's view on what has happened? How is it that the textile and clothing industries in France and Belgium receive Government assistance, while our Government lack any coherent or positive policy towards industries that are so important to jobs and exports?
We lost one job in five in 1980 and many more last year. The orders stem from two facts—the Government's wish to reduce co-operative effort by industry and anything that smacks of an industrial policy and, secondly a business man's natural inclination, when asked to vote for or against paying more money, to vote against it. The surprise is that the vote was as close as it was. Time has passed since the industry was asked its views and we now have a new Secretary of State for Industry.
In replying to the debate, I hope that the Minister will give the House his assessment of the research, development, innovation and export marketing for the future of the wool textile industry so that hon. Members on both sides of the House can reach their views on his judgment and whether the efforts in those different directions have been adequate.
These are inadequate and irrelevant proposals, put forward by a Government who have no determination to build on the strength of the wool textile industry and the skills of its workers. The Government should withdraw these orders and bring back totally new proposals aimed at increasing the size and relevance of export, research, development, design and marketing efforts of the wool industry and of its closely associated, but equally important, clothing industry.
I hope that the House will be able to speak strongly against these orders tonight. I ask the Government to think yet again about the positive and progressive policies in this industry, which is still very important to West Yorkshire and its people.
11.6 pm
Mr. Bob Cryer: I shall divide my comments into two parts. As chairman of the Joint

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Committee on Statutory Instruments, I emphasise that that is an all-party Committee. The all-party Committee recommended that the orders should be reported to the House on the grounds of the unusual use of powers. Secondly, it must be clearly demonstrated that there is no power to make exemptions. The elastic minds and interpretations of civil servants—unfortunately backed by Ministers—have produced some extraordinary results.
I hope that hon. Members have considered the evidence of civil servants called before the Committee last week, which was available in the Vote Office. I asked about applying principles of fairness, which must be applied according to the parent legislation. The evidence reads:
"there has been a massive increase from 70 to 270 payments out of the 600 or 700 that are subject to the levy. It is an enormous increase, is it not?"
The reply was:
"Yes. I think it is only possible to answer that question by saying that these days some larger firms could fall within what we feel to be small firms. I really cannot put it any other way."
That was the curious justification of the massive increase and exemption of some firms which raising the limit allowed. There is no statutory basis for any exemptions being made. However, I pursued this line of inquiry and asked:
"would you feel, for example, that you could exempt a section of the industry by making an order which would, say, exclude 40 or 50 per cent. of the industries specifically?"
The reply was:
"I would suggest that that is within the powers. It is true that the section says we should impose charges on persons carrying on business in the industry."
It continues:
"Equally, it could have said, to make the matter plain, if that was the intention of Parliament, that the charge should be imposed on all persons in the industry or all persons except those whom the Secretary of State may exempt, but we would take the view that those words do allow the Secretary of State to select, among the persons carrying on business, those whom he wishes to impose a charge on and, indeed, thereby to exempt others."
That is precisely what the legislation does not state. It does not give any grounds for exemption. Of course, there were exemptions because of firms below the level at which the levy was imposed in the past. That was not brought to the attention of Parliament and was simply an administrative convenience. The cost of collecting the levy was more or less evenly balanced by the revenue from the levy.
Therefore, the Department said that it would draw a line where the cost roughly equalled the revenue. These orders raise the number of firms dramatically to about 270. Almost half the firms in the industry are now exempt by a highly elastic interpretation of legislation which does not allow any exemptions. That is the Committee's basic concern. Our legal adviser tells us that it is an unusual use of powers. After careful investigation, the Committee came to the same view. However, the evidence was that the industry had taken trouble to consult all the firms.
I turn to the merits of the order; and here I part company entirely from the Committee. It in no way questions the merits of the order. It is concerned about its application under the primary legislation and any unusual use of powers. If the Minister is concerned about the democratic processes, he should withdraw the order and seek fresh legislation. That would place the matter beyond doubt. A Committee of the House has questioned the position.
Mr. David Ginsburg: Do the Government have powers to end the levy and not merely to alter the exemption?
Mr. Cryer: There are powers to end the levy in the primary legislation. The Committee was concerned with the application of the levy
The Department of Industry consulted the industry. I am particularly concerned about the research order. The figures are given in the evidence. There was a poll of 77 per cent. on the scientific research levy. Many might consider that to be high.
The Government have imposed polling standards elsewhere. With great foresight and intelligence, the two unions said that they would prefer to keep the levy. In polls concerning the closed shop, the Government require evidence of an overwhelming majority in support of it. By statute they have fixed the poll at 80 per cent. of those eligible. They insist there on an overwhelming majority, but they are prepared to accept the view of the industry on a markedly lower poll. The poll was only 77 per cent., and a significantly smaller proportion supported the ending of the levy.
The industry is already creaking. In many respects it is not a progressive industry. It has excellent industrial relations, as has been said. Traditionally the unions have been extremely co-operative and at times almost inert. Industrial action has been sparse. Modern methods have been widely accepted. Even then, I hear from constituents complaining about employers who intimidate them to prevent them joining a union.
The industry is facing difficulties. The MFA renegotiation has created a lack of confidence. The erosion of WIRA could be a blow. It was the first co-operative venture of its kind. It was established in 1919. The hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Waller) wrongly said that technical innovation necessarily reduces the number of jobs. At the end of the second wool textile scheme there was a slight increase in employment. The Department of Industry survey showed that the investment had enabled the industry to improve quality and to compete with foreign goods in international markets.
Therefore, there is a strong possibility that investment and development improve an industry. WIRA was playing a part in that development. It was open to negotiate research and development for contractual purposes, apart from the income and services provided by the levy. I believe that WIRA was providing an excellent service. The fact is that some parts of the industry are backward about taking advantage of the opportunities to see that a research levy of this nature is to the long-term advantage of the industry and not to its disadvantage.
I emphasise with all the power at my command that the Minister should have resisted the view of the industry on this matter. He should have decided to keep the WIRA levy on a longer basis. The industry is in difficulties. There is import penetration. There are the difficulties of the multi-fibre arrangement not being clear and its poor basis, and the difficulties that arise from membership of the Common Market and the lack of control by the EEC Commission over dumping, which has been experienced over the past few years.
All those difficulties can be combated to some degree by having a forward-looking industry that is prepared to accept innovation and development. The removal of the levy is a step in the wrong direction. I hope that the Minister, on technical grounds and on grounds of merit, will withdraw the orders.
11.17 pm
Mr. Barry Sheerman: The Opposition have made an excellent case. They have given statistics and marshalled the evidence from learned reports and investigations into the textile industry.
I shall add my voice to those of my hon. Friends who oppose the two orders, not only because of what they will do, but because of what they show to be the Government's general attitude towards the industry, which many of us feel is the backbone of Britain's industrial future.
Many members of the Government seem to believe that the textile industry can be written off and forgotten. The orders are symptomatic of that view, which is exemplified by the attitude that runs through the Government's relations with other Departments dealing with the industry.
When we think of the textile industry and of any healthy industry that plays a significant part in our industrial life, we must think more closely in terms of a culture or an infrastructure. Whichever word we use, the culture that surrounds an industry or the infrastructure that supports it is essential. If at any time that infrastructure or culture is in danger of being destroyed, we must look closely at the process by which it is being destroyed.
In the last few years, when that process has been accelerated under the Government, we have seen the decline in almost every aspect of the life of the textile industry. As my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett) said, we have seen that decline in higher education. He may not be a historian, but he made a good case based on the number of places in higher education that are no longer available for training the more highly qualified textile professionals. That decline can be seen also in the training of the skilled technologist, apprentices and those at the shorter-term qualified levels of the industry.
There used to be many small schools, institutions and colleges in Lancashire and Yorkshire that provided training and grounding for research and development and the accretion of industrial knowledge. Over the past 20 years there has been a gradual decline in the number of places in education at every level. That has brought us to the crisis that we now face. The acceleration of the decline has taken place in only the past three years. There are many in higher education who believe that by the end of the Government's term of office the only major centre for the study of textile technology will be at Leeds university.
The orders will be seen by the textile industry as a clear indication that the Government have written off the future of the industry and the future of those who work within it. the Minister seems to feel that it is not important that those in an industry should make a contribution to the training within it, to the export effort and to marketing and design.
Mr. MacGregor indicated dissent——
Mr. Sheerman: That is typical of the Goverment's attitude. They do not realise that the significance of a small firm's tiny contribution is considerably greater than can be measured in money terms. It is important that firms are seen to make a positive contribution and to have a stake in the enterprise of export promotion, for example. It is sad that the Government took a poll but ignored the opinion of the trade union movement. They heeded the 57 per cent. majority in the industry that voted in favour of the orders.
Mr. MacGregor: It was slightly greater than that.
Mr. Sheerman: So be it. The percentage is not really important. Of course most firms will grab at any cost reduction if the Government have reduced the morale of the industry to such a low level. I do not blame the manufacturers for deciding by not an overwhelming majority to go for a small respite in an otherwise bleak climate.
Mr. Waller rose——
Mr. Sheerman: The recommendations of the Werner report have been brought to the attention of the House. It surprises me that any Minister could read the recommendations and present the Government's recommendations to the House. Bearing in mind the recommendations that have been made within the industry and the deficiencies in marketing and design, no right thinking person with the industry's interests at heart could suggest a reduction in vital areas of enterprise within the industry. Every little piece of evidence that we have seen, especially in the past three years, suggests that the Government should examine the textile industry and say "What can we do in positive terms to turn back the clock and try to renew the textile industry before it is too late?"
A Government who have presided over the tremendous increase in unemployment and the decline in our industry during the past three years should, even at this stage of their period in office, bring proposals to the House to regenerate the industry. Instead of nibbling away at what remains of our industry, let us have a new set of proposals—a 10-point plan—to renew our industry at this late stage. That should be led by Government intervention that matches the Government intervention in any other country. If the Government responded positively, some employers and workers in the textile industry would take every opportunity to co-operate to the fullest extent regardless of the political complexion of the Government.
Mr. Waller: It is true that the industry is fighting against great odds in a competitive market. However, does the hon. Gentleman accept that no one is in a better position than the companies involved in the industry to judge whether they get good value for money from the payment of the levy? Many companies have gone out of existence. Those that are still competing have been innovative and have put much effort and expense into research and development, and especially design, where we were previously deficient. Those companies are best placed to determine whether they get value for money. The fact that a majority appear to have said that they believe that they can use the money better themselves is surely significant.
Mr. Sheerman: It surprises me that the hon. Gentleman can make the remarks that he has this evening and still represent a textile constituency. Of course we are aware that employers know their industry, but the hon. Gentleman must accept that the workers of the industry—his consituents and mine—also know it. He will have heard me make the point that in the psychological climate that the Government have introduced into industry generally, and in the textile industry especially, the easiest road is for a manufacturer to cut costs, if that appears in the short term to be beneficial.
However, it must be the Government's responsibility to consider not just the next two or three years, which is usually the perspective of most trading companies—at the

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most, five years—but to consider the five, 10 or 20-year perspective. These mean orders will do nothing for the industry in that time.
I was making the point as strongly as I could that there is still time for the Government to change their mind on a range of decisions and issues that have deeply hurt the textile industry. My hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Morley (Mr. Woolmer) pointed out the loss of intermediate status. That loss to most of Yorkshire is a bitter blow. It affects industry day after day. It affects the possibility of grants from the European commission and it is hampering industry. If the hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Waller) wishes to direct his comments to the welfare of the industry, he would be better off trying to persuade those who make the decisions in his party to start making decisions that benefit his constituents.
Two recent remarks by Ministers deeply disturbed me. In mid-afternoon, at a time when many people do not listen to the radio, I heard a programme as I was driving to the House on which the Minister for Industry and Information Technology said that the recession would be ended not by demand pull but by information technology push. I wondered, on hearing that remark, what my constituents would make of it. Is the Minister so out of touch—he represents St. Marylebone—that he believes that the people of our constituencies who are working in the industry will accept that the problems of that industry will be solved by information technology push? The people in the textile industry believe that the problems of the industry will be solved by creating demand in the economy and giving people the purchasing power to buy decent worsteds and woollens, the cloth that our industry can provide.
A visit was recently planned for the Minister for Trade to the West Yorkshire area, particularly to Huddersfield and Brighouse. At very short notice it has had to be cancelled. One of the firms that the Minister was to have visited was C. and J. Firth. Only a week after the Minister's planned visit the company went into liquidation. That was a very sad event. It was not a redundant, old, worn-out business. It had invested and reinvested. It had modernised. It had a new product line and was exporting a very high percentage of its production. It had a product line geared to the American market.
The Government know very well the problems of the industry, but they are so imprisoned by their ideology that they would rather let a fine industry die, would rather allow jobs to continue to disappear, than to start governing and do something about an industry that has served the country well.
11.32 pm
Mr. David Ginsburg: I hope that the Government will think again about these orders, withdraw them and, if necessary, produce something better. Even if the textile industry today were comparatively affluent, if would still be wrong to pursue these orders in the face of some of the industry's structural problems.
Two issues arise to be discussed. One is the levels for exemption from the order. The other, which is the more important, is the ending of the levy in respect of scientific research.
On the level of exemptions and contributions, it is worth reminding the House—the Minister referred
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obliquely to this—that the system was derived from the report of the wool textile working party in 1947, which was set up by the late Sir Stafford Cripps——
Mr. Cryer: It was a Labour Government. The hon. Gentleman will not support it.
Mr. Ginsburg: I was not in the House at the time. It reported to the now right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson), who was then the President of the Board of Trade. The system that was derived for operating the levy had regard to the realities of the industry and the large number of small firms in it.
To say that, as a result of the polls, it can be seen that people do not like making the contribution, is to use a fallacious argument. This problem has been around for some time, during which the affairs of this industry have been discussed. If the public and the industry were polled on every occasion that a tax was suggested, I venture to suggest that no proposals would ever go through. We have to make a judgment as to what is in the interests of the industry. In such an industry, where there is a large number of small firms, it is short-sighted to go into exemptions, particularly if, as has been suggested, there would be a problem in ascertaining who had contracted out and whether they were to receive any benefits from the services. This consideration applies in parallel with the export levy because, again with small firms, the problem of exporting must be substantial.
When a small number of persons is employed in management it is a significant burden to have two or three people employed abroad. Certainly those companies cannot indulge in anything like market research. There again, the reality of the industry requires this structure. On balance it is a pity to move away from it.
I am much more concerned about the possibility of the levy ending. We have to look carefully at the orders to realise that there is not just a transition involved, which, in itself, would not be very important. There is the possibility of the levy ending. I am concerned that, so far, the Government have not adequately explained how they propose to fund and guarantee the levy on research expenditure that the industry requires and which, in the current situation, is vital for the industry's survival. I hope that the Minister can reassure me.
11.37 pm
Mr. MacGregor: Any outside observer, listening to some of the comments made tonight by Labour Members, might have been forgiven for failing to understand that the House is dealing with comparatively modest orders. It is important to get what we are discussing into perspective. The hon. Member for Norwich South (Mr. Garrett) talked about a substantial increase in the level at which exemptions take place. Although the number of companies being exempted represents a comparatively large increase, we are still talking only about very small sums of money.
The debate has gone a good deal wider than the terms of the orders and I am sure, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you would not allow me to respond in depth to the many points that have been made. I wish to reply to the points that have been made about the orders. I will say one thing on the more general aspect. Of course I do not minimise the difficulties of the industry, but we have debated the textile industry on many occasions since I entered the Department and I think that I have been present on most occasions.

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The Government have been fighting to obtain as tough a re-negotiation of the multi-fibre arrangement as can be achieved in the international discussions. We recognise the industry's problems. The Werner report has been mentioned. It is unfair to accuse the Government of not making it available. At an early stage, we put a copy of it in the Library and published it. However, it is a long report and, therefore, expensive to publish. However, we did so, and made the report available to the House and the industry from the outset.
On 8 March, the Confederation of British Wool Textiles met my hon. Friend the Minister for Industry and Information Technology to discuss the Government's response to the report and the report generally. My hon. Friend agreed to study a document that the delegation passed to him and to consult colleagues about the possibility of encouraging the European Commission to tighten up guidelines and to control better the scale of textile aids. That was a fairly recent meeting and following it, work is continuing.
The House no doubt wishes me to deal with the points raised by the order. The hon. Member for Norwich, South, (Mr. Garrett) asked why WIRA was not being given the names of the companies that would be exempted from the levy. I shall consider that point, but, as he knows, we must operate under the Industrial Organisation and Development Act 1947. In general, section 5 deals with restrictions on the disclosure of information. Section 5(2) states:
"Returns or other information furnished subject to provision made…shall not, without the consent of the person carrying on the business to which the returns or information…be disclosed otherwise than…
(a) in the form of a summary".
We have given WIRA the summary of the returns, but under that provision we should be able to give the details of the firms only if the firms gave us their permission to do so. We have not yet asked the firms that will be exempt, because, for obvious reasons, the order has not yet completed its passage through the House. We have not yet asked them if they would be prepared to disclose their names, but I take note of that point and will consider it.
The hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Mr. Woolmer) began by criticising the proposal on the ground that the export levy would be sharply reduced. However, as I have said, raising the levels of exemption involves a reduction in the income from the levy—not the total income of either of the bodies—of about 4 per cent. Therefore, he should accept that "sharply reduced" is a great exaggeration of the amount of income lost to the organisation as a result of the proposed change.
Mr Woolmer: I criticised the Minister for abandoning the research levy and for losing the opportunity to increase the export promotion effort. Perhaps the Minister's recollection is a little faulty.
Mr MacGregor: I think that the hon. Gentleman said that the proposal would sharply reduce the export levy. I agree that he also said that he would like it increased. The point is that a 4 per cent. reduction will hardly be sharp. That is another reason why we must keep the matter in perspective.
Several Opposition Members mentioned the importance of design, marketing, export selling and so on. I
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accept those points, but it is important to recognise that much of this work—particularly in design and marketing—is done by the firms. We are talking only about one aspect of the industry's total effort. I know of several firms in the industry, which—even in this difficult period—have been increasing their exports and doing well, because they have concentrated a great deal of their resources on improving design, marketing and export selling. It is important to bear that in mind, because that point has not been made. We are discussing only a small change in the export levy.
Mr John Garrett: Surely the Minister must acknowledge, together with the National Economic Development Council, the Werner report and the industry, that the countries with which our wool textile industry competes have a far higher level of Government support for design, marketing, and export selling and it is better directed than in Britain. We lose in competitiveness because of the Government's unwillingness—unlike other Governments—to support the industry directly in exports.
Mr MacGregor: I have two points to make in response to that intervention. First, the Werner report did not come to any clear conclusions about the comparative levels of aid across the Community as a whole; in fact, that section of the report left it very much open for conclusions to be drawn. Secondly, in the orders tonight we are talking about the contribution that the industry makes and not about the level of Government aid.
The hon. Member for Batley and Morley referred to assisted area status, which we have discussed on many occasions. As he will know, one of the most difficult problems is to establish the relative position of any individual area and to ensure that any action taken does not produce a boomerang or mushrooming effect elsewhere.
We have made it clear on many occasions that we look regularly at the position of individual areas, to see whether there is evidence of permanent structural decline relative to other areas. The hon. Gentleman's representations frequently ensure that we look at it on a regular basis, and that would remain the position.
The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) referred to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. The reason why we have held back the orders until this evening was to enable the Committee to look at the orders, to discuss the matter with officials from the Department and to report to the House. I remember well what the hon. Gentleman said on the last occasion when we debated levy orders in the Chamber.
I assure the hon. Member for Norwich, South that we are satisfied that this is a legal use of the powers. There was reference to an unusual use of the powers, but there have been exemptions of long standing, and the only question that we are discussing this evening is not whether that is legal and permissible but whether the level to which we are raising the levies is reasonable.
The industry acknowledges that what we are attempting to do is reasonable. The Committee was perfectly entitled to draw attention to an unusual use of the powers. There was a similar situation last year, when the House passed the orders, and I think it is perfectly in order for us to ask the House to do so again.
With regard to the total response to the questionnaire, and the weighted response on the basis that a £1 levy equals one vote, the return on the scientific research poll

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was 91 per cent. and on the export promotion poll 79 per cent., so the return was very substantial and is a reasonable indication of what the industry felt.
It was suggested that we should have resisted the view of the industry. Here, there is a genuine difference of view between us. We felt that it was right to respond to the view of the industry. The hon. Member for Keighley would prefer that we resist it.
Several comments have been made by Labour Members about the raising of the minimum to £100. The most significant point is that a substantial number of the small firms voted against the export promotion levy. It is perhaps understandable that they did so, because several of them are unlikely themselves to be involved in exports. In answer to the point made by the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Ginsburg), even though they do not contribute to the levy because they are below the minimum, there is no reaon why small firms should not benefit from any of the work that is being done. A substantial number of the small firms voted against the export promotion levy, and that is one reason for taking it into account. A second reason is that the minimum level has not been raised since 1970. Although I suppose that on a purely index basis we would not reach the figure of £100, nevertheless it seemed to be a sensible position to take in view of the changes that have occurred, and also taking into account the costs of raising the levy.
There is a third matter which I, as Minister for small firms, bear very much in mind. For many years there has been constant criticism—it is very strong at present—from small firms that the Government impose burdens and compulsory obligations on them of one sort or another which are not suited to small firms, which they find difficult to understand, and from which they benefit little. In making this modest change we are taking account in a small way of that general criticism by small firms, without significantly altering the income that comes to either body.
Mr Cryer: Surely WIRA is exactly the sort of organisation that benefits small firms which cannot develop their own design, research and development facilities in the way that larger firms can do. It is the sort of organisation that should be retained and developed to help to nurture small firms.
Mr MacGregor: We are talking about an £11, 700 reduction in WIRA income from the levy. There is no reason why small firms should not benefit from WIRA's research activities. All that we are doing is removing an additional burden on small firms, in terms of contribution, for very little change in the research activities. The chairman of WIRA says that raising the levy to £100 is "very sensible.".
Mr. Woolmer: It is a matter of abolishing the research levy, not simply of reducing it by £11, 000 in the first year. Will the hon. Gentleman say now what he thinks will happen to WIRA because there are grave doubts: whatever has happened in the past, in the future, in the kind of recession that we are in, it is feared that WIRA will not be able to grow in the way that it should?
Mr. MacGregor: I shall come to that matter, but the question asked by the hon. Member for Keighley was about the small firms that were being exempted, and it was in that connection that the chairman of WIRA said that the increase to £.100—which I agree lasts only until the compulsory levy is abolished—was "very sensible."
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I shall come to what the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Mr. Woolmer) said, taking into account what was said by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, East (Mr. Sheerman), who, in a speech that was related more to the wider problems of the textile industry than to the orders, said that these orders would be seen in industry as "Government writing off the textile industry." That is far from the truth. The Government are not writing off the textile industry. That is a ludicrous charge. We are responding to the wishes of the textile industry.
That brings me to WIRA. In the February 1982 edition of WIRA News, under the headline
"A Positive View of the Levy Poll",
one reads:
"Indication of future support 'Bodes well' says Wira chairman."
It is worth studying what he said:
"This bodes well for the future…We have set up a Wira Board and Council Sub-committee to study the needs of the industry in relation to modern technology and to devise a new Wira to be ready for the post-levy period".
Mr Lambert emphasised that WIRA would serve the industry through the Eighties, and added:
"The facilities and capabilities which Wira has available will be shaped to the industry's needs"—
that is an important point. He said that by making it respond through voluntary contributions and through contracts and research contracts and other things of that sort it would be responding positively to the industry's needs. I share that view. The hon. Gentleman asked me for my view.
The chairman went on:
"Wira and its staff are committed to providing a first class technical service to all Members and customers, and will continue to do so as long as the industry supports them".
It should be remembered that WIRA is also supported by the Department.
"Dr. Brian King, director and chief executive, underlined in his report the 'very satisfactory number' of new research projects that had received Department of Industry Requirements Board approval for support during the year under review. No fewer than nineteen new projects had been approved."
It should be borne in mind that a good deal of WIRA income comes from areas other than the levy. In my view, WIRA will have an important future, and will continue to respond to the industry's needs.
We have consulted substantially throughout. We have taken nearly a year to reach this decision through careful consultation. It is important to stress again that in both of these orders we are responding to the wishes of the industry and, in consultation with the two bodies affected, WIRA and the National Wool Textile Export Corporation. I commend the orders to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Wool Textile Industry (Export Promotion Levy) (Amendment) Order 1982, which was laid before this House on 2nd March, be approved.

INDUSTRIAL ORGANISATION AND DEVELOPMENT
Resolved,
That the draft Wool Textile Industry (Scientific Research Levy) (Amendment) Order 1982, which was laid before this House on 2nd March, be approved.—[Mr. MacGregor.]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 73A (Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.)
RATING AND VALUATION
That the draft British Railways Board (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Amendment Order 1982, which was laid before this House on 23 February, be approved.—[Mr. Brooke.]

EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES
That the draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (International Railway Tariffs Agreements) Order 1982, which was laid before this House on 4 February, be approved.—[Mr. Brooke.]
Question agreed to.

Fluoridation (West Midlands)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Brooke.]
11.55 pm
Mr. Ivan Lawrence: I am grateful for the opportunity that an Adjournment debate offers to bring to the attention of Parliament the latest deplorable attempt by medical and bureaucratic busybodies to by-pass our democratic process and to trample upon the liberty of the individual in a matter that concerns the physical health of the people.
It is reported that within weeks of being replaced by the new district health authorities, which might not share their enthusiasm, 11 area health authorities in the West Midlands have given the go-ahead to the Severn-Trent water authority and the South Staffordshire water works company to mass-medicate a further 2 million people under their control by adding an industrial effluent containing the toxic poison fluoride to the public drinking water.
The essence of my complaint tonight is that this decision is directly contrary to the wishes of the overwhelming majority of democratically elected local authorities in the area, is a classic example of the arrogant abuse of power, and as such ought not to be allowed by, of all Governments, a Conservative Government.
In a letter to me on 20 March 1982, my right hon.Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services said:
"Differences of opinion clearly exist on fluoridation and we are not pressing health or water authorities to fluoridate. The Government wishes to proceed only with the consent of those concerned locally and to leave the decision to water and health authorities".
That statement indicates a most welcome shift away from the more dogmatic attitude of earlier holders of my right hon. Friend's office and would be a most acceptable position if only we could trust the West Midlands health and water authorities to have taken such a decision
"only with the consent of those concerned locally".
But with a contemptuous disregard for the poor, ignorant fools whom they clearly believe democratically represent the people on local authorities who must drink the water—in fact, those most concerned locally—they are proposing to go ahead without that consent.
I know, of course, that with some notable exceptions, such as Wolverhampton community health council, on whose behalf my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) would have spoken tonight had he been able to do so, the community health councils are mostly in favour of fluoridation. But in all common sense, I ask my hon. Friend: how representative are they? They are not elected. A third are local government nominees, but that does not necessarily mean elected councillors, and even elected councillors often have the greatest difficulty getting to community health council meetings.
Some are voluntary workers who may or may not be in touch with the wishes of the people on this matter, and some are medical men and women who can be expected to prefer science to the will of the people, even if they have bothered to read any of the evidence on the subject.
Perhaps community health councils do some good. I am not sure. What I am sure of is that, compared with the democratically elected local authorities, they can hardly be said to represent or reflect the will of the people, and to

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pretend that they do is to reveal the weakness of the whole fluoridation case. They cannot win the argument with the people, so they will get the unelected community health council to make the decisions for them.
Mrs. Sheila Faith: Will my hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr. Lawrence: A little later, if I may. Does it not make a mockery of
"the consent of those concerned locally"
to reject, as the Midlands health and water authorities have done, the clearly expressed views of the democratically elected Staffordshire, Shropshire, Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and Worcestershire county councils?
What do the district councils say? Newcastle-under-Lyme, Stafford, South Staffs, East Staffs, Lichfield, Cannock Chase, Tamworth and Stoke-on-Trent in Staffordshire have all said "No." Oswestry, North Shropshire, South Shropshire, Shrewsbury and Atcham, The Wrekin and Bridgnorth in Shropshire have all said "No." Malvern Hills, Wychavon, Worcester in Hereford and Worcester have all said "No."
The district councils of Cheltenham, Gloucester, Tewkesbury, Stroud and the Forest of Dean in Gloucestershire have all said "No." The Wolverhampton, Stratford-on-Avon, South Derbyshire, Broxtowe and Nottingham councils have all said "No." I have not finished. What of the parish councils? A total of 148 parish councils have been circulated by the Staffordshire parish councils association. Of the 72 replies, 12 said that they were in favour of fluoridation and none conducted a local survey. Of the 58 which said that they were against fluoridation, 22 conducted a local survey. Two have said that they do not know. Of those responding, 86 per cent. of parish councils in Staffordshire are against fluoridation of water supplies, 14 per cent. are in favour. Forty per cent. of those against fluoridation bothered to conduct surveys.
The Government have a clear duty. If they wish to proceed "only with the consent of those concerned locally, " they cannot leave the decision to water or health authorities, and certainly not to those which are as dictatorial as the authorities in the West Midlands.
Mrs. Faith: Will my hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr. Lawrence: I give way to my hon. Friend, who is a dentist.
Mrs. Faith: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that several of my constituents who are dentists in Burton-on-Trent are worried about the attitude of their Member of Parliament? Bearing in mind the suffering caused by dental decay, particularly to children, if the district health authority's elected members voted in favour of fluoridation, would my hon. and learned Friend accept it? Would he accept a referendum in favour of fluoridation?
Mrs. Renée Short: How does the hon. and learned Gentleman account for the fact that an opinion poll taken in the West Midlands showed that 66·5 per cent. of the population was in favour of fluoridation and only about 15·8 per cent. opposed it? It looks as if the long list of authorities which the hon. and learned Gentleman read out represents those who are not in touch with public opinion.
Mr Lawrence: I hope that the mass medicating lobby has had its say. If my hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mrs. Faith) had been listening she would have realised that the gravamen of my complaint is that what is being done is without the consent of the people. If the consent of the people were properly ascertained, I should not be objecting along these lines. To the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short) I say—if one asks a silly question one gets a silly answer. If the question is "Do you think that fluoride should be added to water if it can reduce tooth decay?" it should be no surprise if two-thirds of the people say "Yes." If, as happened in a later poll, one asks "Do you think that people should be allowed to choose whether they or their children will have more fluoride in the water that they drink?" one should not be surprised if two-thirds agree and reverse the earlier vote. That is what happened. National pubic opinion polls are not the answer. The decision should lie with the democratically elected local authorities in the areas most concerned.
In the matter of compulsory fluoridation of the public water supply, the instincts of the people are far sounder than the illiberal views of scientists who do not bother to look at the evidence which in recent months has totally changed the scientific picture.
Mrs. Renée Short: What about Birmingham?
Mr. Lawrence: If the hon. Lady will listen, she may learn something of the developments that have taken place.
First, on the benefits of fluoridation. It is becoming increasingly evident that fluoridation is not responsible for the widespread reduction in dental caries in children's teeth as the hasty and unscientific conclusions from Birmingham at first supposed. Without fluoridation, child tooth decay has reduced compared with seven to 10 years ago by 62 per cent. of five-year-olds in Bristol, 50 per cent. of five-year-olds in Avon, with a 40 per cent. decrease in active decay, a 30 per cent. improvement in five-year-olds and a 35 per cent. reduction in active decay in 15-year—olds in Dudley, 50 per cent. fewer fillings in Devon and a massive reduction in dental caries in the Isle of Wight—not one of which areas has fluoridation.
Mrs. Renée Short: What about the Royal College of Physicians?
Mr. Lawrence: If the hon. Lady would listen, she might take note of a letter written on 19 March this year to The Times Health Supplement, which is no doubt daily reading at her bedside, by none other than Dr. R. J. Anderson, senior lecturer in community dentistry at the dental school of—of all places—the university of Birmingham, the fount of mass medication. He wrote:
"We have been aware for some time that the levels of decay in children have dropped by between 35 per cent. and 50 per cent. This change appears to have occurred in groups aged from five to fifteen, in rural and urban areas, in all social classes, and is not related to the occurrence of natural or artificial fluoride in the drinking water supplies."
That is the latest view of the medical people most concerned.
Secondly, I turn to the instincts of the people on whether fluoridation is safe. It is becoming increasingly evident that the Burk-Yiamouyiannis evidence that fluoridation causes more than 20, 000 cancer deaths per year in the United States may well be right. Whatever the

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few eminent members of the Royal College of Physicians, who drafted their report in January 1976 without any regard to that evidence may say, are not these the facts—first, that in November 1978, after five months of testimony by the leading experts on both sides, a judge in the court of common pleas of Allegheny county in Pennsylvania said:
"Point by point, every criticism defendants made of the B-Y Study was met and explained by the plaintiffs. Often, the point was turned around against defendants. In short, this court was compellingly convinced of the evidence in favour of the plaintiffs."
Secondly, that in August 1979 a high-powered Government commission in Quebec concluded that there was
"enough evidence to conclude that the actual presence of fluorides above certain levels in the aquatic environment is causing important biological damages to both plant and animal systems.".
Mrs. Renée Short: Tell us what the Royal College of Physicians said.
Mr Lawrence: The Quebec commission found that
"fluoridated organic compounds and the fluoride ion may be as potent carcinogens as chlorinated organic compounds…The possibility of formation of fluoridated organic compounds either during the water treatment process in public waterworks or during later use by industry takes on a new dimension and should be of utmost concern to all who are interested in Public Health."
The Quebec Government therefore decided upon an indefinite moratorium on fluoridation throughout the province.
Furthermore, on 24 February this year, a circuit court judge in Illinois, after a hearing of some 40 days in which he heard the leading experts on both sides of the argument, decided that
"A conclusion that fluoride is a safe and effective means of promoting dental health cannot be supported by this record. This record is barren of any credible and reputable, scientific epidemiological studies and/or analysis of statistical data which would support the Illinois Legislature's determination that fluoridation of public water supplies is both a safe and effective means of promoting public health."
Did not the judge rule that there should be no more fluoridation in the state of Illinois?
I have said nothing about the likelihood that fluoridation is unlawful, because that matter is being considered by a Scottish court in Strathclyde. I have said nothing about the thoroughly unethical behaviour inherent in fluoridation. A doctor prescribes for a patient he has never seen, knowing not whether he is too old, too toothless or too sick to benefit from fluoridation, knowing not what dose of fluoridation the patient has received from the air he breathes and the water he drinks and not even knowing what dose he is giving the patient—because he has not the faintest idea how much water he drinks. That is a betrayal of all the ethics on which the medical profession is based.
I have said nothing about the most important reason for the public rejection of fluoridation—the serious loss of the individual's right to choose whether he is medically treated. Once that road is opened, who knows where it may lead? In addition, I have said nothing about the fact that, apart from Britain and Eire, every other country in Europe has either never allowed or suffered from fluoridation or has stopped it because the people did not want it.
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I conclude by asking my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to put a stop to this highly dangerous and dictatorial nonsense. I know that on the question whether the will of the people is reflected through their democratically elected councils I touch a sensitive nerve in my hon. Friend, who served with immense distinction in local government before coming to adorn our Benches. I ask him to request his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to declare an immediate moratorium on the sort of decisions that water and health authorities are taking in the West Midlands until the Strathclyde case has decided whether fluoridation is lawful and safe.
For the longer term, I ask my hon. Friend to maintain the moratorium until he is satisfied that there can be positively no danger to health—that is not the position at the moment—that the benefits of fluoridation are substantial—that, too, is not the position at the moment—and that the people have shown that they want it and that Parliament has decided that they should have it. Surely we are entitled to expect as much from a Conservative Government?
12.13 am
The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg): I thank my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) for raising, so vehemently, an important and difficult issue, which he has debated with me over many dinner tables in the past five or six years—though before I occupied my present post, in which I have to give him an official reply.
Fluoridation very much exercises the minds of Ministers. It raises difficult ethical issues, complex scientific questions and is, of course, highly controversial. There is the question of how far it should be for the Government to dictate to the responsible bodies locally how far and how fast fluoridation schemes should press ahead. As I shall try to explain, our firm view is that it must be for those responsible locally to make these decisions in the light of local circumstances, but that, in itself, raises questions involving highly delicate judgments for those local bodies. It will be helpful to the House if I first outline the history of fluoridation and the present position in this country, before I go on to examine the situation in the West Midlands.
Conclusions of the first five years of the fluoridation studies in the United Kingdom were published in 1962. Since then successive Governments have encouraged health authorities to seek the introduction of fluoridation in their areas. Area health authorities are presently responsible for such preventive health measures—although from 1 April this year district health authorities will take over that responsibility. Water authorities have also been encouraged to comply with the requests of health authorities.
The Government's view today is still that fluoridation of water is a safe and effective method for preventing dental decay. But we feel that the right policy at present is to ask health authorities to reach their own decisions in the light of local consultations, before deciding whether to introduce fluoridation schemes. We would like to see progress being made only with the consent of those concerned locally and to leave the decision entirely to health and water authorities in the light of properly taken local opinions. I know that this question of local consultation is difficult and I shall return to it in due course.

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I shall now comment on the role of the water authorities, which are, of course, within the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. I assure the House that the water authorities cannot be compelled to fluoridate. Further, we have no plans to introduce legislation which will place on them a duty so to do. My advice is that the legal powers to add fluoride to water supplies are at present adequate.
Nevertheless, the legality of adding fluoride to water is among the issues at present being tested in a very lengthy case in the Scottish courts. It is this that is the worry in the minds of most water authorities, which appear to be reluctant to accede to health authorities' requests to add fluoride to the water supplies. The Scottish court case started in September 1980 and still goes on. The result is not expected until later this year.
We have been asked "Why don't you stop fluoridation, or at any rate new fluoridation schemes until the Strathclyde verdict is known?". As I have said, our advice that existing legal powers are adequate still stands. We see no reason to interfere with fluoridation plans in the meantime. There will be no new policy statement on fluoridation before the Scottish case is decided.
I now come to say a few words about the extent of fluoridation in Britain, before dealing with the position in the West Midlands. At present, some 4·8 million people in the United Kingdom—about 9 per cent. of the population—receive fluoridated water. Although it is a fact that almost all area health authorities favour fluoridation, most of the nine regional water authorities in England are at present unwilling to proceed with new projects, largely, it seems, because of doubts about their legal powers. In the West Midlands, the attitude of the Severn-Trent water authority has enabled the regional health authority to introduce new fluoridation schemes over the past few years.
The current plans in the West Midlands are for a scheme to fluoridate the Wolverhampton area. The plan spreads much wider than Wolverhampton because of the way the water systems work and it involves a total population of over 1·6 million. It is a large and complex project. There are no fewer than 11 area health authorities involved and 10 community health councils. The West Midlands regional health authority plays a co-ordinating role but has no part in the actual decision to fluoridate. It is for the area health authorities to take the lead in the consultations on the proposal to fluoridate and to recommend accordingly to the water authorities. It is those who supply the water, and not the health authorities, who have the final word.
I deal next with the major and difficult area of consultation. I am told that there has been full discussion locally on the most recent plans for fluoridation in the West Midlands. All the area health authorities concerned are in favour of the measure and of the community health councils, six are in favour and four are against. Although it is true that the local authorities have no direct standing in the decision to seek fluoridation, it has been said that the views of the elected local authorities are sometimes not properly taken into account by the health authorities before decisions to fluoridate are taken.
I know that this is something on which my hon. and learned Friend feels most strongly. Local authorities
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should certainly play a part in providing one of the many voices that the area health authorities take into account in reaching a decision. Community health councils, on the other hand, do have a statutory duty to perform. Area health authorities are obliged by law to consult them over any change in the health services in their area.
Now comes the difficult question of how to gauge local opinion. To whom should the health authorities be listening? In fact, they are not obliged by law to listen to anybody—not even the community health councils. But I feel certain that, although prepared to listen to views from whatever quarter, health authorities must make a judgment on which of the various opinions they have received should carry most weight. At the end of the day, they must make the final decision in what is, after all, a major issue of preventive health. I cannot propose a change in the law in our general debate.
There are always at least two sides to any question of consultation. I, at least, have never known a consultation exercise where 100 per cent. of opinion has been exclusively on one side. Of course it would be ideal if both parties to the argument readily agreed. But where disagreements exist, it must surely be right for the balance of judgment to be drawn by the health authorities locally, taking into account the various and several comments that they have received.
That is a difficult task. They will have received comments from all kinds of sources, often expressing strongly and sincerely held views. But we feel that the health authorities concerned are much better placed than Ministers and civil servants at the Elephant and Castle to assess the local feelings on issues like this.
The Government are by no means blind to possible alternatives to fluoridation of water supplies. For example, 95 per cent of all toothpaste sold in the United Kingdom now contains fluoride. The dental health of children, as my hon. and learned Friend graphically illustrated, particularly young children, has been improving dramatically and the most relevant factor that can be identified is the advent of fluoridated toothpaste. There have been clinical trials conducted in this country, the most recent in the Avon area and a survey in the Isle of Wight, which have indicated that fluoridated toothpaste can produce about 20 per cent. to 30 per cent. reduction in the dental caries level in young children. In the longer term, we are particularly interested in the potential for an anti-caries vaccine, to which end we have been sponsoring since 1970 research work for its development.
I assure the House that, although the Government consider that fluoridation of water supplies is a safe and effective preventive health measure against dental caries, we do not propose to intervene in the West Midlands issue, of elsewhere, for that matter. We feel that freedom of decision should be left to individual authorities locally. Also, we think that it is right that it should be for those authorities to arrange local consultations. It must be their judgment and decision as to how the balance of opinion lies before they make a final decision to recommend to water authorities that fluoridation plans should proceed.
That is the position as it exists. My hon. and learned Friend knows that a judgment is to be handed down later this year on a issue raised in the Scottish courts. There is also pending a case in Calderdale. The Government

143
believe that it would be much wiser to see what comes from the Strathclyde decision. In the light of that, Ministers will look at all the points raised by my hon. and
144
learned Friend and what appears to be the result of the Scottish case and will take them all into consideration in deciding what their policy should be.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-four minutes past Twelve o'clock.

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  National Health Service (Administrators)
  National Health Service (Administrators)
  Sewerage System Replacement
  Sewerage System Replacement
  Council Housing (Waiting List)
  Council Housing (Waiting List)
  Unemployment Statistics (Newport)
  Unemployment Statistics (Newport)
  Lead Piping
  Lead Piping
  Civil Defence
  Civil Defence
  Welsh Language
  Welsh Language
  Local Authority Expenditure
  Local Authority Expenditure
  Cleddau Bridge (Tolls)
  Cleddau Bridge (Tolls)
  Homeless Persons
  Homeless Persons
ENVIRONMENT
  Insulating Foam
  Insulating Foam
  Lead Piping
  Lead Piping
  House Building (Greater Manchester)
  House Building (Greater Manchester)
  Richmond Terrace
  Richmond Terrace
  Manchester (Financial Assistance)
  Manchester (Financial Assistance)
  Official Residence, Edinburgh
  Official Residence, Edinburgh
  Denny Inclosure, New Forest
  Denny Inclosure, New Forest
  Homes Insulation
  Homes Insulation
  Local Authority Expenditure
  Local Authority Expenditure
  Serpentine Lido
  Serpentine Lido
  Land Registers
  Land Registers
TRANSPORT
  Driving Tests
  Driving Tests
  High Explosives (Arpley Sidings)
  High Explosives (Arpley Sidings)
  Dangerous Substances (Transportation)
  Dangerous Substances (Transportation)
  Public Transport Support
  Public Transport Support
  Lead Emission
  Lead Emission
  Rawtenstall (Road Sign)
  Rawtenstall (Road Sign)
  Severn Bridge (Tolls)
  Severn Bridge (Tolls)
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Lead Piping
  Lead Piping
  "Nellie M" and "St. Bedan" (Sinking)
  "Nellie M" and "St. Bedan" (Sinking)
  Devolution
  Devolution
SCOTLAND
  School Leavers and Education
  School Leavers and Education
  Chiropodists
  Chiropodists
  Ancient Monuments
  Ancient Monuments
  Roads and Transport
  Roads and Transport
  Lead Piping
  Lead Piping
  Water Lead Levels
  Water Lead Levels
  Secretary of State (Official Residence)
  Secretary of State (Official Residence)
  Tayside (Health Budget)
  Tayside (Health Budget)
  Milk Prices
  Milk Prices
  Supplementary Benefit
  Supplementary Benefit
  Family Income Supplement
  Family Income Supplement

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: Lord CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.

Royal Assent
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

Agricultural Training Board Act,

Industrial Training Act,

Canada Act,

Travel Concessions (London) Act.

Heathrow: Names of Lounges
2.33 p.m.
The Earl of Kimberley: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why the British Airports Authority deem it necessary to change the names of the lounges at London Airport from Alcock and Brown to Hillingdon, and from de Havilland, Brabazon and Kingsford-Smith to Hounslow.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, the choice of names for the VIP suites at Heathrow Airport is a matter for the board of the British Airports Authority and not for the Government. I understand that the proposed changes were prompted by the reduction in the number of suites in the central area from four to two and the consequential difficulty of choosing which of the four names of equally famous aviation pioneers to drop.
The Earl of Kimberley: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask whether he would not agree that this is one of the greatest insults which could have been given to these brave pioneers of British aviation? Secondly, will he confirm that there is already a VIP lounge on the south side of the airport, called Southside, and that would make a total of three? Does he not agree that this is just another example of the British Airports Authority's bureaucracy?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, we would certainly agree it is very sad that these famous names will no longer be noted and attached to the suites in the central area at Heathrow. I will certainly convey your Lordships' opinion to the British Airports Authority. My noble friend is quite correct; I understand that there is an additional VIP facility, as he described, and I shall check whether a name might be applied to that facility.

Housing: Council Sales and Market Value
2.34 p.m.
Lord Beswick: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the market value, as estimated by the local authorities of the 171,400 council dwellings sold between 1st April 1979 and 30th September 1981.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin): My Lords, the department's estimate of the market value of the 171,400 council dwellings sold in England and Wales is £2,640 million.
Lord Beswick: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether this does not mean that something like £1,900 million of public property has been made available to private individuals?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, one can look at it in that way if one wishes. One might also look at the fact that the people who have bought them now own their own homes, which many feel is a very desirable state.
Lord Beswick: My Lords, speaking as one who is greatly in favour of private ownership, is that sufficient reason for expecting my fellow ratepayers to subsidise ownership? When the Government's account comes finally to be reckoned, will not this very large amount of public property made over to private individuals be added together with the hundreds of millions of pounds worth of publicly-owned industry which has also been made available to private individuals at less than market value?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, when one talks of "market value" one really has to talk about historic costs. Market value is a notional figure which has no meaning until a sale is made. One has to look at the historic costs of these dwellings to really ascertain whether a profit or a loss has been made. That, surely, is a better way to assess the real performance.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that this marks a singular advance towards the attainment of a property-owning democracy?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, and I certainly do agree.
Lord Jacques: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that no one in private industry would ever be guided by historic costs? There has been inflation for years. How can the historic cost be of any importance when what matters is how much the property can be sold for at the present time?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I would hardly have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, would press the

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point about how much the property could have been sold for at the present time when it is the policy of the party opposite not to sell at all.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, is it not a fact that as a result of these sales there is no question of the ratepayer subsidising them? Ratepayers have now been relieved of sums of money, since the upkeep, painting and repair of these houses is now undertaken by private owners, who are very proud of their houses.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend and I certainly endorse his remarks.

Lead in Petrol: EEC Consultations
2.42 p.m.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what consultations they are having with our EEC partners with a view to reaching agreement on a date for phasing out lead in petrol.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, in May last year the Government announced a reduction in the maximum permitted lead content of petrol from 0·4 to 0·15 grammes per litre to take effect by 31st December 1985. The Government chose this option as the quickest way in which to achieve the largest reduction in lead emissions. A European Community working party is, however, assessing the need and scope for, and consequences of, a reduction in polluting exhaust emissions from vehicles, including lead, and the United Kingdom is taking an active part in this study.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that very helpful Answer. Nevertheless, does he not agree that there is now unequivocal medical evidence of the highly detrimental effect which lead in petrol has on children's health? Will he not accept that, if the Government cannot persuade the EEC to change its directive on the lead content of petrol, the Government would be justified in taking action to set a date to remove lead from petrol in Britain, citing at the same time Article 26 of the Treaty of Rome in defence of their action?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I am afraid I would not agree with the noble Baroness that the evidence is unequivocal. High levels of exposure to lead are certainly dangerous, but the working party on Lead and Health chaired by Professor Lawther reported that the evidence of harmful effects of low level exposure was not conclusive. More research work is in hand in a search for greater certainty, and, as a further indication of the Government's determination to tackle the problem root and branch, a wide range of measures is being taken to abate lead pollution from a variety of sources.
Lord Renton: My Lords, while not doubting my noble friend's and the Government's desire to eliminate lead in petrol when it is found to be a cause of damage to the human brain, would he bear in mind that there are far too many people in this country suffering from mental handicap for which the causes cannot be established, and, when there is a cause that seems likely to be established, will the Government please take it very seriously indeed?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, indeed I take note of my noble friend's remarks. It is important to reduce people's exposure to environmental lead as far as possible and as quickly as possible, and that is what the Government believe they are doing.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, at the time of the report by Professor Lawther to which he referred, the Conservation Society, of which I have the honour to be president, issued a counter report, entitled Lead or Health, in which it was clearly demonstrated that Lawther had failed to take into consideration some of the evidence which is available from the United States and Australia on the effects of exposure of children to low levels of lead in the environment, and that, since Lawther reported, new evidence had become available tending to the same conclusion, that the effects on children of small quantities of lead are extremely harmful and cause behavioural and intellectual disturbances which parents in this country are no longer prepared to tolerate.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, indeed we are aware of the various findings which have been produced more recently, but, as I said, further research work is in hand. The Medical Research Council and the Department of the Environment are both supporting specific studies on the effect on children of low-level exposure to lead. We still believe that the steps the Government took last May are the most apposite for us to take at the moment.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, may I ask the noble Minister which countries throughout the world now have lead-free petrol?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, indeed the noble Baroness may. The two I have in mind are the United States and Japan. I believe Australia also has it, and I think there is one other country. But if the noble Baroness wishes to draw from the fact that they have lead-free petrol that that is because of health hazards, she is, of course, wrong.
Lord Leatherland: My Lords, does the noble Earl recall that in his Answer he gave the quantities in litres. Can we not have it in gallons? I apologise for being British.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord is quite able to translate it himself.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, the noble Earl said that it was not for health reasons that these countries had lead-free petrol. May I ask him for what reasons they do have it?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, it is because of the smog; the catalysts which are necessary in order to get rid of smog are no use when there is lead in petrol.
Lord Mowbray and Stourton: My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that it is also true that having lead-free petrol means having very large engines which are very expensive in energy?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I do not think it means having larger engines, but it does mean considerable research, and this is one of the reasons why the Government took the steps they did in order to get the position of two-thirds less as soon as possible.
Lord Ardwick: My Lords, will the Government take into full account the strength of public opinion on this matter, which is overwhelmingly in favour of getting rid of lead in petrol?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, of course the Government are aware of the public pressure.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: My Lords, the Minister said that the countries which have lead-free petrol have it in order to get rid of smog. May I ask him, is not smog harmful to health?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, indeed it has a health factor, but not, I think the noble Lord would agree, as lead has.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, as the noble Earl said in his original reply that the Government thought that the measures they were taking were the quickest way to deal with this matter, does not that show that there is some urgency and why did not the Government go further?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, in May of last year the Government embarked on a positive policy. I am sure that the noble Lord will remember the Statement made at the time, which set out what that was.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl one other point? Would he not agree that, unless our motor industry starts to think of manufacturing cars to run on lead-free petrol, they will become even less competitive with Japanese cars, designed to run on both kinds of petrol, which are selling massively all over Europe?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, the noble Baroness's original Question was about the European Community, and we do have to go in step with them. The research which I mentioned in my original reply to the noble Baroness underlines that point.

Heathrow: Baggage Handling by Volunteers
2.48 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
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The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will congratulate British Airways and the British Airports Authority on the effectiveness of the improvised arrangements in recent weeks for handling baggage at Heathrow, which have greatly assisted passengers, including disabled people.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I am glad that, despite the present dispute at Heathrow. inconvenience to air travellers has been kept to a minimum. It would not be appropriate for the Government to intervene in this dispute, but I do hope that in everyone's interest a settlement will be reached very soon.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his perceptive and helpful reply. Is he aware that volunteers, including pilots and other aircrew, have been helping to maintain this essential service on the ground? Is my noble friend further aware that passengers who are unable to carry their own baggage, such as the elderly, have benefited also from the disappearance, during this period, of the pilfering which has been so deplorable a feature of Heathrow in the past?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, in reply to my noble friend's first question, I understand that it is indeed the case that other members of the British Airways staff have assisted in various duties which are normally carried out by the ramp workers. As to my noble friend's second question, there have been reports on the point he has indicated, but I am afraid we should require verification from British Airways management themselves.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, would the Minister agree that it is indeed a pleasant change when the travelling public is considered in these matters? Would he further agree that in disputes such as these it is always the person in the middle, wherever the dispute may be, who suffers? Finally, would he feel able to congratulate those people in British Airways who have contributed to this action and who have done it either instead of their own jobs or in their own free time? In addition, as I understand it, British Airways did not offer any payment for this until after the volunteers themselves had begun their work.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, in so far as British Airways are not always aware of the comments of the noble Baroness, I shall certainly draw to their attention the noble Baroness's remarks.
Lord Glenkinglas: My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind what my noble kinsman said in his supplementary, that there has been a very large diminution in pilfering? Would he at least encourage the trade unions, when they come back and do some work, to follow the very good example of the volunteers?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I can endeavour to bring the remarks of both my noble friends to the attention of British Airways, but, as there is to be a meeting of the union side tomorrow, I do not think that I should go any further on that this afternoon.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it has been widely reported that as many as 50 cases each week are reported of robbery from or within baggage going through London Airport? Is it not a fact that, since the volunteers took over, that figure has dropped from 50 to nought? This is a highly effective and responsible action by those volunteers.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I do not know from where my noble friend obtains his information, but it is a trifle dangerous to suggest that something is, indeed, a fact, when it may not be. But I shall give the assurance, which I gave to both of my noble friends, that I will bring his remarks, together with theirs, to the attention of British Airways.

ISRAEL: FOREIGN SECRETARY'S VISIT
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given Private Notice, namely:
"To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary will defer his visit to Israel".
Lord Denham: My Lords, in view of the fact that my noble friend the Foreign Secretary cannot be at the House today and that my noble friend Lord Trefgarne has only recently arrived at the House, I shall, with the leave of the House, arrange for my noble friend to answer this Question at a convenient moment after 3.30 this afternoon.

Business
Lord Denham: My Lords, it might be for the convenience of the House if I announce that dinner will be available at the usual time this evening. Subject to progress of business, the Committee stage of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill may be adjourned at approximately seven o'clock for a short period.

Antiquities Bill [H.L.]
2.53 p.m.
Report received.

Copyright Act 1956 (Amendment Bill) [H.L.]
Lord Fletcher: My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Commitment he discharged.—(Lord Fletcher).
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Shops Bill [H.L.]
2.54 p.m.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Baroness Trumpington.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Repeals]:
Baroness Trumpington Baroness Trumpington moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 5, after ("III") insert ("except sections 44(2), 45 and 46").
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 1 and for the clarification of your Lordships, and with your Lordships' leave, I shall be speaking to Amendment No. 2 as well. The purpose of these amendments is to propose certain rights of shopworkers under the provisions of the Shops Act 1950, so far as that is possible, consistent with the main object of the Bill which is to repeal the restraints which exist under the present law on the hours during which shops may open. It is no part of our purpose to reduce unnecessarily the rights of shopworkers. Under the existing law, the rights of workers and the rules requiring shops to be closed at certain times are woven together. We need to unweave them and, in doing so, a certain amount of legislative tidying up becomes necessary. It is that tidying up which these amendments bring about.
The Bill repeals with one bold gesture Parts I, III and IV of the Shops Act 1950 which deals with hours of trading. I must refer at this stage to Part II of the 1950 Act which is headed, "Conditions of employment", because it is left on the statute book and it is not our intention to remove safeguards for workers provided by law under that heading.
Turning to Amendment No. 1, as the Bill stands at present, Sections 44(2), 45 and 46 would be swept away with the rest of Part III of the 1950 Act. On closer inspection it now transpires that this would not be appropriate. My amendment preserves those sections and concerns special cases. First, Section 44(2) concerns post office business. The effect of this amendment would be to continue the existing exemption that post offices have from the requirements of Sections 17 to 20 of the 1950 Act. These sections cover such things as the entitlement of shop assistants to weekly half-holidays and meal intervals, with special requirements applicable to young persons. Post offices have for a long time enjoyed immunity from those requirements of the Shops Act, so it is appropriate that we should continue that immunity.
Next, Section 45 concerns:
"any fair lawfully held or any bazaar or sale of work for charitable or other purposes from which no private profit is derived".
The same goes for non-profit-making libraries. Perhaps some of your Lordships will be surprised, as I was, to learn that a fair or bazaar could, in law, be considered a shop. Such, however, seems to be the case. So by amending the Bill in this way we succeed

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in preserving the immunity they already enjoy, together with non-profit-making libraries, from these requirements and which I am sure we would all want to see continue.
Finally, we get those enterprises enjoying immunity from the provisions about half-day holidays and meal intervals by virtue of Section 46. This, I venture to guess, is even more remote from the everyday experiences of your Lordships. It covers:
"any library which, on the first day of January nineteen hundred and thirty-six, was carried on by a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts, 1893 to 1928".
I must confess to being unable to acquaint your Lordships of the number of libraries that still exist within that description. I dare say there are a few. Since they were exempted when Parliament last addressed its mind to the subject in 1950, it is right that we should continue their exemption from what will be left of the Shops Act 1950, when we have repealed those parts of it which cover shop opening hours. Therefore, with a view to preserving the exemptions currently enjoyed by those kind of places—post offices, fairs, bazaars and libraries of the kind that I have outlined—this amendment has been tabled.
For this amendment and for the others tabled in my name, which are largely of a technical character, am greatly indebted to my noble friend Lord Belstead and to officials of his department for the help they have given, and in particular for their advice and drafting expertise. The whole Committee will be indebted to them for the improvements to the Bill which will thus be brought about. Whatever views individual noble Lords may have about the merits of the main proposals of the Bill, I am sure that all of us want to see a Bill which is technically in good order. I thank my noble friend most warmly for his help.
I now turn to Amendment No. 2 standing in my name. Amendment No. 2 seeks to add to the Bill certain repeal provisions to supplement those already in the Bill. The first amendment adds a repeal provision to Clause 1 and the other adds, after Clause 2, a schedule to the Bill setting out in detail the provisions which are to be additionally repealed. They fall into two categories. First, it repeals those words in the surviving parts of the Shops Act 1950—in fact, Parts II and V—which need to be repealed in order to enable those surviving parts to make sense now that we are repealing the remainder of that Act. We need to remove from Part II cross-references to the provisions of the parts of the Act that we are now repealing, and that is what is achieved by the references in the schedule to the Shops Act 1950.
Secondly, and consistent with that principle, there are provisions in other enactments—the London Government Act 1963, the Post Office Act 1969, and so on—which carry references to those parts of the Shops Act 1950 which we are now proposing to repeal and which need to have deleted from them those references. That is what the rest of the schedule does. They are essentially consequential repeals. However, as their purpose is to preserve workers' rights effectively, I hope that the Committee will bear with me if I attempt to describe their effect in a little more detail. I think that this will serve to illustrate the general tenor of the policy of those of us who have prepared and promoted this Bill.
Your Lordships will observe that included among the repeals arising from these amendments are three affecting Section 22 of the Shops Act 1950. This section, which I emphasise is to be retained and will remain part of the law, deals with Sunday employment. Your Lordships will know that under the existing law some kinds of shops—just a few—may open on Sundays. They are listed in the Fifth Schedule to the 1950 Act and include a curious variety of establishments. They range from shops which may sell intoxicating liquors to the sale of fodder for horses and mules; fresh fruit and vegetables; and meals also are included. There are a few others.
Section 22 makes special provisions for safeguarding the rights of shopworkers who, under the existing limited provisions, may work on Sundays. It requires that a shopworker who has to work more than four hours on a Sunday must have a whole day off in lieu at some other time during the week. One who works four hours or less on a Sunday must be given a half day off in lieu during the week. There are back-up provisions to enable this to operate effectively. It is the intention of this Bill that these provisions protecting shopworkers should continue to apply.
As your Lordships will readily appreciate, these provisions will have considerably more significance once this Bill goes through, if it does, because then any shop will be able to open on a Sunday, instead of the restricted list of shops allowed to open on Sunday at present. So in future the provisions allowing shopworkers time off in lieu will have far more importance, as they will bite on a far wider range of shops than at present.
However, there are some parts of the Sunday employment section—that is, Section 22—which ought to be trimmed off in order that it should make sense in the new situation. Thus, in subsection (3) we find a provision requiring shops open on a Sunday to keep proper records of the names and of the hours worked by shopworkers on Sundays. The subsection refers to the shops open:
"…by virtue of any provision of Part IV of this Act, other than section sixty-two".
That refers to the existing provisions allowing the limited range of shops to open on a Sunday. Now, of course, all shops will be so allowed to open, so we need to remove the reference to Part IV and so on from the section in order that it should bite, as it now will, on any shop open on a Sunday.
The result will be that every shop which opens on a Sunday, as allowed by this Bill, will have to keep proper records of who are employed on a Sunday and of the hours worked. This will help to ensure that those shopworkers who work on Sundays will get their entitlement, on a comparatively generous basis, to appropriate time off in lieu during the week. What is more, such workers will be allowed to work only on two Sundays a month. That is also found in Section 22 (1) (a) (ii) and, in fact, is preserved. Your Lordships will also notice that the amendment would have the effect of repealing subsection (5) of Section 22. The reason for that is as follows. It is a little complicated.
Under the present law an ordinary butcher's shop is not allowed to open on a Sunday. The only exception is a kosher butcher's shop, which falls within the special

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provisions of the existing law allowing Jewish shops in certain circumstances to open on a Sunday instead of on the Jewish Sabbath. Those kosher butchers who open on Sundays at present are exempt from the requirements under the present law to give workers who work on Sundays time off in lieu during the week, and from keeping records. However, when this Bill comes into force a different situation will arise. Then any butcher's shop will be allowed to open. It is considered that it would be an anomaly if butchers' shops as a whole were treated differently in these respects from other shops. There is no reason why they should be. So we have brought all butchers' shops, including kosher butchers, into line with other shops. They, too, will be required to give time off in lieu and to keep the necessary records. This, we have to accept, will impose a new burden on kosher butchers' shops, for at present they can open on a Sunday without having to meet these requirements. But in future they will have to do so.
I have been given to understand that the Board of Deputies is not opposed to this. No doubt the reason is that other Jewish shops—that is, shops other than kosher butchers' shops—already have to comply with the provisions of Section 22 when they open on a Sunday. So it is not asking too much of kosher butchers' shops to step into line in this respect. In effect, it is an extension of the existing provisions protecting shopworkers, and I am pleased to be able to do this as I am keenly mindful of the interests of shopworkers.
Finally, there are the repeals from enactments other than the Shops Act 1950. Let me mention two of them. Your Lordships will see that they include Section 88 of the West Midlands County Council Act 1980. This deals with the National Exhibition Centre near Birmingham which, by that provision, is exempt from the requirements of the Shops Act 1950 as regards weekday and Sunday trading restrictions. This will no longer be necessary once this Bill goes through, so the provision is repealed. The same goes for the Earl's Court and Olympia Exhibition Halls covered by the Greater London (General Powers) Act 1981. These exhibition centres will no longer need to be dealt with by special exempting provisions, as they will be covered by this Bill. I beg to move.
3.10 p.m.
Lord Bishopston: I am sure that the Committee is grateful to the noble Baroness for the way she has moved her amendment and for the detailed explanation she has given in justification of it. So far as the amendment itself is concerned, I believe she is right in saying that this is a tidying-up amendment. I ought to say that, while I speak for the Opposition, by the nature of this Bill my noble friends will of course themselves consider the matters drawn to their attention and decide and vote accordingly. From my own position of what is a new term of benevolent neutrality, if there are Divisions, I may not be noticeable in the Division Lobby.
The noble Baroness is bringing before the Committee an issue of great importance. Indeed, the noble Lord the Minister, in the Second Reading debate on 9th February, at column 166, said:
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"I…genuinely thank my noble friend again for giving us the opportunity to discuss this issue, which is of major social and commercial importance"
I am sure your Lordships' Committee would not wish a matter of that dimension to pass through without having certain assurances and information regarding the background of the noble Baroness's investigation into the matters which she has drawn to our attention. Indeed, she has just said that she is keenly mindful of the interests of shopworkers. That kind of comment is reassuring but it would be useful, and helpful to her in my neutrality, if she would give the Committee a little more information about the background.
In her Second Reading speech, the noble Baroness said that she claimed the right of freedom of shops to open and close when they wish. That of course is inherent in the measure. The noble Baroness will appreciate that there are at least three parties in a business partnership. They include not only shopkeepers but the workers in the shop, who are involved in the enterprise as well as the customers.
On the last occasion, when we debated this on Second Reading, we had information regarding the views of some of the consumers from the National Consumer Council. At the same time, customers are also workers, and they include many people who are members of families and who may wonder how this measure will change the pattern of their family life if they have to work—because there appears to be very little choice about whether one works later in the evenings, or has any religious or other scruples about working on Sunday. Regardless of the religious or other dimensions of the matter, it could substantially change the pattern of family life as we know it in this country. While we want to enjoy to the maximum leisure and other facilities, we may not, as workers, wish to contribute in the way the measure may demand and where we may have no choice.
The dilemma facing your Lordships' Committee is that the present law is indefensible and is unenforceable. This point, I thought, had the unanimous support of the House when the noble Baroness brought forward this Bill on Second Reading. As the Government have refused to give us what I, and many, think is a long-needed and comprehensive review of the present position, we may feel inclined to think that this is the only alternative to that situation and that we ought to do something about it on this occasion.
There are a number of other important amendments before the Committee which are not contrary to Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 of the noble Baroness, and undoubtedly those who have tabled the amendments will be speaking in support of them when the time comes. When we debated the matter on Second Reading, several questions were put to the noble Baroness which still require a reply. One important question concerned consultation which the noble Baroness has had, or not had, with the industry and the trade itself. This Bill will radically affect the trade and all those involved in it, whether as employers or employees, or as customers. Have all the trading and business organisations been consulted and are they happy about the prospect of unfettered trading? What about the Churches? What about the representatives of the Jewish and other faiths?
The noble Baroness mentioned the Board of Deputies. I am not sure how much consultation there was before

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the amendment was tabled. What about the retail trade? Of course there is more than one category. It includes the small shopkeepers, the medium-sized people, businesses generally, and the multiples. Are they all happy about the prospect, if some of their competitors wish to open late at night, or to have an all-day Sunday opening of shops, that they will be able to compete without any undue effect on prices, with overtime, energy and other costs which may be involved? It would be helpful if we were to be told of the consultation which has taken place with the trade.
Then, what about the men and women who work in the shops? Has the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, which has nearly half a million members, been consulted? What observations has it made to the noble Baroness, apart from the letters which some of your Lordships have had since the Bill was first tabled early in the year?
I noticed that, in a letter of 29th January of this year, USDAW says:
"It is the considered view of the union's 440,000 members that there is no real or genuine need for the abolition of the major part of the 1950 shops legislation as proposed in the current Bill".
It goes on to claim that many shopworkers would be placed at a social disadvantage when they are required to work on Saturdays and Sundays. They go on to refer to the important economic and social consequences which a measure of this sort would bring.
These are some of the misgivings which have been expressed. I think your Lordships would not wish it to be thought that we passs legislation of this sort without some assurance that all those who may be affected have been asked to give their views and that the views expressed have been taken into account. I suggest that the TUC might have been consulted. It is not only the matter of the shopworkers, the people who work behind the counter, that we are considering here today. There are the supply units: the people who drive the lorries and the vans to re-fill the shelves in our supermarkets; the people in the banks who will have to cash cheques and provide the money and collect the takings. I know that there are often means whereby this can be done without human intervention, but these are some of the services which may be affected. The Post Office, which is mentioned in the schedule among the changes, may be required later when the pattern of trading changes to provide their services. The transport services are important; the security aspects; the police and fire brigades, and others.
The local authorities are affected, too, because we shall have the need for car parks to be open on Sundays when people buy their bedroom suites on a Sunday evening and other goods at a later time in the day, or all day Sunday when the facilities become available. Car parking attendants are involved. A wide range of people will be affected if this legislation goes through.
Although the noble Baroness claims that the number of hours overall which workers work may not be affected, to a football enthusiast who wants to see a match on a Saturday afternoon the prospect of having Tuesday off is not something which is likely to make him feel very pleased. Without straying on to some amendment which we shall discuss later, even in matters of conscience it is difficult to define the areas of loyalty relating to various aspects of our lives.
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Therefore, we have other areas of conflict as well, all of which require certain assurances that a wide range of organisations and representatives have been consulted by the noble Baroness.
If people are to shop later and if business hours generally are to be unlimited, then the prospect, for instance, of people wanting to drink in public houses at later hours may require those establishments staying open until midnight or even later. I do not know whether publicans and the licensed trade have been consulted about that. Just as some publicans dread the thought of one or two drinkers sipping their pints until gone midnight, it may be that those who supply other needs in shops may not wish to stay open late simply because their competitors are open.
I question whether the totality of goods and services provided will be any greater because shops are open much later, when, if we knew they were closing earlier, we could get our shopping done earlier, with no great inconvenience to those who have to serve us in those shops. On the other hand, the tourist trade must be taken into account—the changing pattern of needs throughout the country—and in some areas the tourist trade makes special demands which are not being met in an altogether satisfactory way at the moment, as the noble Baroness and others have said as a justification for the proposed change.
Those are a few questions on which it would be helpful if the noble Baroness could give some indication of the action that has been taken already. Many noble Lords will be sorry that the Government have said they are unable to take any action at present on a matter which many consider requires a comprehensive review. It may be that after the present stage of the Bill the Government will reconsider their view in that respect. In the meantime, it would be helpful if the Committee could have replies to some questions, of which I gave notice on Second Reading, about what the Government have rightly described as a matter of major social and commercial importance.
Lord Derwent: I had not intended to intervene in the debates on the Bill in any way, although I was occupied with the subject for many years. I suggest, with respect, that the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, was in the nature of a Second Reading speech. Accordingly, if my noble friend Lady Trumpington tried to answer all the questions asked by the noble Lord we might get into a muddle. Nearly all the points he raised arise on later amendments and therefore it would be of help, certainly to me—it would stop me, and possibly the Committee, from getting muddled—if my noble friend dealt with those points when we come to those later amendments.
Lord Bishopston: I had considered raising those points on the clause stand part, but by then a number of amendments would have been discussed and the noble Baroness might have been at a disadvantage, wondering whether some of the points I put had been taken into account.
Baroness Seear: We on these Benches greatly welcome the amendment. The reservations we expressed on Second Reading were due to the fact that we were not sufficiently reassured about the position of workers,

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and the amendment goes a long way to allaying those fears.
3.25 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead): It might be convenient if commented on the two amendments which the Committee is discussing, because my noble friend Lady Trumpington was good enough to express appreciation for help with the drafting. On Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, drew attention to certain deficiencies in the drafting of my noble friend's Bill, particularly references to parts of the 1950 Act which are to be repealed as well as references to parts which would remain if the Bill were enacted. The point was reinforced by my noble friend Lord Mottistone, along with the suggestion that the Government might give my noble friend help with drafting, should she wish to have such help. The amendments follow discussions I had with my noble friend.
In very simple terms—I say this because it is a few minutes since my noble friend explained the effect of the amendment—as I understand the position, Amendment No. 1 will preserve certain exemptions and Amendment No. 2, taken with the schedule which is Amendment No. 7, will extend some protections for terms and conditions of service. The drafting of all those amendments is in line with the undertaking I gave on Second Reading—they tidy up the drafting—and, like the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, I do not think need spend more time on that.
I should like to comment, however, on the question of consultation because Lord Bishopston was really asking my noble friend with whom she consulted before bringing the Bill before your Lordships' House. While cannot, of course, answer for my noble friend on that, I am sure she had in mind the fact that when the Home Office conducted their review—it was a departmental, not a public, review—we had discussions with certain interested parties. Discussions were held at official level with interested parties who heard about the review and got in touch with us; the Retail Consortium, British Multiple Retailers, National Federation of Meat Traders, Institute of Shops, Health and Safety Acts Administration, Board of Deputies of British Jews, Lord's Day Observance Society, British Tourist Authority and the English Tourist Board. An omission from that list is the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, but we have made it known to that union that the Home Office would not embark on public legislation unless we had warned the union that we were intending to do so.
It was as a result of that departmental review that my right honourable friend decided—indeed, announced in the House of Commons—that, with regret, he could not embark on public legislation because he did not think there was sufficient agreement among all interested parties and the general public for the Government to introduce a public Bill. However, on behalf of my right honourable friend I made it clear for the Government on Second Reading that we found no point of principle as to why the Government should not be benevolently neutral—indeed, as friendly as possible—towards my noble friend's Bill. The reason for that was that the Home Office review had thrown
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up the fact that in Scotland the same situation regarding Sunday trading did not apply. The Home Office review had borne out the conclusions of the recent inquiry conducted by the National Consumer Council that the current pattern of trading in Scotland was very similar to that in England and Wales, the only difference being that in Scotland it was being carried on solely within the law.
It was for that reason, almost more than any other, that we felt we wanted to be as helpful as possible in debate with my noble friend. That is why I say, with respect, to the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, that a great many of the questions he asked fall. If the sort of legislation that my noble friend Lady Trumpington has in mind were to reach the statute book, I do not think that many of the problems the noble Lord foresees would in fact come to pass.
Baroness Trumpington: I welcome the noble Lord's benevolent neutrality. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, I am certainly not ducking any of his questions but I would ask him whether we may stick to the point of the two amendments with which I have dealt so far. If at any later stage he wishes to come back on any point, I shall be glad to answer.
Lord Bishopston: Before the noble Baroness sits down, will she accept from me that I believe that her contribution and the Minister's comments a few moments ago will be helpful to her and to the Committee as background when we discuss other amendments.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Trumpington Baroness Trumpington moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 8, at end insert—
("(3) The enactments specified in the Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of the Schedule.").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of Avon: I think that this might be a good moment to take the Private Notice Question. I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Israel: Foreign Secretary's Visit
3.31 p.m.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, for a second time, I beg to ask a Question of which I have given Private Notice. The Question is as follows:
"To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary will defer his visit to Israel".
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Trefgarne): My Lords, may I first apologise to your Lordships for not being in my place about half an hour ago, when it would have been appropriate to answer this Question, but I think that the noble Lord and the House will know the

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reasons for that. The Answer to the Question is as follows: No, my Lords. We have taken careful note of representations requesting my noble friend Lord Carrington to cancel his visit to Israel because of the situation on the West Bank. We deplore the dismissal of the democratically-elected mayors and have called for an end to the violence. However, we believe that it would be wholly unproductive to cut off communications with Israel at a time when it is vital to try to persuade the Israeli Government to show restraint and work for an overall settlement.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord, may I ask whether he is aware that the Foreign Secretary's efforts to promote a peaceful settlement in Palestine have been widely admired, but that, no matter how toughly he talks when he gets to Israel, the mere fact that he is willing to make a courtesy call at this time is bound to help Mr. Begin to resist his critics and to continue colonising and oppressing the Arabs in Gaza and on the West Bank? Is it really appropriate that a British Foreign Secretary should pay a friendship visit to a Government whose international conduct is so widely condemned, universally condemned, and which is indeed so outrageous?
Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is a very strong feeling in the country and in the House that, precisely because of the dangers and difficulties in the Middle East at the moment, we feel it is essential that his noble friend should carry out his visit to Israel? The most productive gesture that could be made at this time of great danger would be for the PLO to declare formally its belief that the state of Israel should exist, particularly since there are many Israelis who do not approve of their own Government's methods on the West Bank. Will the noble Lord urge his noble friend to repeat that plea to the PLO?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, I would say that my noble friend's visit will be considerably more than a mere courtesy visit, as he suggested. It will of course be an opportunity for an exchange of views at the highest level within Israel. Not only will my noble friend be able to convey his views to the Israeli Government, but the visit will be of great value to him to hear their views at first hand as well. It is, I think, important to maintain the dialogue in this situation and not to cut off communication, as would happen if the visit were to be cancelled.
With regard to the point made by the noble Baroness, I certainly agree with her that it would be of the greatest value if the PLO could, for example, be persuaded to accept the right of Israel to existence as a state, and in the same context it would be of great value for the Israelis to undertake a dialogue with the PLO.
Lord Gladwyn: My Lords, while I quite understand the reluctance of the Foreign Secretary to cancel his proposed visit to Israel, will he take the opportunity of the visit to express to his Israeli hosts his strong displeasure, and I should hope also that of the European Economic Community, at the recent dismissal of many
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Arab mayors by the Israeli authorities, and at the imposition of what on the face of it seems very like martial law on the West Bank of the Jordan?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, we view the developments on the West Bank with grave concern, and we deplore the dismissal by the Israeli military authorities of the democratically-elected mayors of Nablus and Ramallah, as well as the earlier dismissal of the mayor of El-Birch. We have again appealed—and I would do so now, if I may—for an end to the violence there. It can only harm the prospects of a settlement which gives the Palestinian people the right to choose their own future.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, is the Minister aware that whether or not the Foreign Secretary visits Israel, whatever intentions he may have—whether he intends to visit Israel, or remains away from Israel—there is not the slighest prospect of peace in the Middle East until the Arab countries, whether collectively or individually, decided to recognise the state of Israel? Let there be no doubt about this: I say it with the utmost emphasis in meaning what I say—and backing Begin, if necessary—there must be an assurance that Israel's security is assured, while at the same time there is a readiness to enter into negotiations. Let that not be forgotten—and Camp David provides for it; let that not be forgotton, either. Until such assurances are given, there is not the slightest prospect of peace in the Middle East. There is also a danger. If, whether in this House or elsewhere, there are some people who, for some reason or another known to themselves but unknown to other people, continue to attack Israel, or anybody associated with Israel, they will not promote peace; they will make for war.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that the Israelis are entitled to the kind of assurances to which he has referred. But one must say that one of the sources from which they seek the assurance—namely, the PLO—is one organisation with which they refuse to have any dialogue at all.
Lord Wells-Pestell: My Lords, bearing in mind the word "outrageous" used by the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, may I ask the Minister whether it is not outrageous that most of the Arab countries still consider that they are at war with Israel, and that all the Arab countries, with the exception of Egypt, do not recognise her Government or her existence?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, that is really an extension of the point that I think was being made by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, but I should prefer not to use words such as "outrageous" in any context in the Middle East situation, hoping that we can move forward to a consensus agreement in due course.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he will convey to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, how sincerely we appreciate his initiative, in particular through the European Community, for a solution of this problem by recognising both Israeli frontiers and the Palestinians' right to self-determination? But is it not the case that this visit,

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at this time, might prejudice the conclusion of such an arrangement? In view of what is happening on the West Bank, might it not antagonise Arab feeling, which is growing in favour of the proposal, and might it not strengthen the position of the Begin Government when they are in crisis on this very issue?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, one of the purposes of the visit of my noble friend will be to convey to the Israeli Government the views of the British Government on the various events that have been taking place recently, in particular the most unhappy events on the West Bank, and I think that, if the visit were to be cancelled, that opportunity would be lost. I am firmly convinced, I must say, that the way forward is to maintain a dialogue with all the parties to this dispute, for to cut them off, as is suggested in the Question, would not contribute to that end.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that by virtue of the fact that, happily, Israel is a free democracy, the views which have been expressed in this House which are critical of happenings in the West Bank have been freely expressed in the Israeli press and certainly freely expressed in the Parliament of Israel, where a substantial vote on this very issue was registered against Government policy last week?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, of course it is true that Israel is, happily, a democracy, and hopefully the views of their Government will reflect the views of the Israeli people.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are distinctions between not making a courtesy visit and cutting off all communications, which is not, I think, suggested by anyone? But is he also aware that his replies about the need for reciprocal recognition will be very warmly welcomed—the PLO must of course recognise Israel, but reciprocally the Israelis must recognise the PLO—and that in this context his statement, in striking contrast to the statements of the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies, and the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, produces a hope for the future? But, really, one cannot expect the PLO to recognise Israel when Mr. Begin says repeatedly that even if they do the Israelis will never recognise the PLO.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the PLO is not, of course, a state as we would understand it, and therefore the concept of recognition may not be precisely the right description of the relationship which should be evolved with that organisation. What we have said, and what I repeat now, is that there is no prospect of peace in the Middle East without taking into account the views of the PLO, who clearly represent a substantial portion of Palestinian opinion.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, talks about my not having a future, I have a far better future in comparison with his awful past?
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we all look forward to an indefinite future for the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell?

Shops Bill [H.L.]
3.43 p.m.
House again in Committee.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Lord Robertson of Oakridge Lord Robertson of Oakridge moved Amendment No. 3:
After Clause 1, insert the following new clause:
("Exemption from employment on Sundays, Christmas Day and Good Friday on grounds of conscience
.—(1) It shall be a term of employment of any person employed in a shop that he shall not be required to undertake work in that employment on any Sunday, or on Christmas Day or Good Friday, if he conscientiously believes on religious grounds that he ought not to do so.
(2) In this section "shop" has the same meaning as in the Shops Act 1950.").
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this amendment is to protect those who work in shops and who feel on religious grounds that it is wrong to work in shops on Sundays, Christmas Day or Good Friday. But I would emphasise that this amendment covers all who work in shops, including, for example, cleaners. Throughout the Bible we see the principle, which was specifically endorsed by Our Lord, that one day a week should be kept holy to the Lord. In the Old Testament this was the seventh day of the week; after the Resurrection it became the first day of the week—ie, Sunday. There is a surprisingly large number of people who, in this day and age, still strongly hold to the principle that Sunday should be set apart to God for worship and recreation with their families. Recently I had occasion to let it be known that I was interested on one local matter which affected Sundays, and I had letters from literally hundreds of people on the subject. I was extremely surprised at the strength of feeling. As the Church in this country recovers its strength, which I am sure it is going to do, that number of people will increase.
It may be said that we already have some Sunday trading without having exemption on the grounds of conscience, so why do we need it now? I believe that the sweeping changes envisaged under this Bill create an entirely new situation which makes the exemption appropriate and necessary. It may also be said that there are other forms of employment which require work on Sunday, and that we do not have this kind of exemption for them. For example, no one would consider being a policeman if they did not feel it possible to work on Sundays. However, people in shops do not necessarily expect to work on Sundays. Some people who work in shops do feel it is wrong that shops should open on Sundays, and I think there is a different situation requiring this exemption.
The amendment does not provide any means for testing whether a belief is conscientiously held. That seemed to me to involve the creation of unnecessary machinery. I believe that in the case of the Vaccination Acts it was necessary for those seeking exemption to make a statutory declaration, but there it was probably

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required because it was a criminal offence to refuse to vaccinate a child. Here, no criminal offence is involved.
A more serious consideration, I think, is the position of those who on religious grounds are unwilling to work on some other day, such as Friday or Saturday. I felt that this point was outside the scope of this amendment. Your Lordships will be aware that Section 53 of the existing 1950 Act makes special provision for persons observing the Jewish sabbath. This provision will be swept away with the rest of Part IV. I think there may well be a problem here to which attention might be given by either the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, or by the Government. I beg to move.
Baroness Trumpington: In purely emotional terms it would be my desire to applaud and support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge. On the face of it, his amendment supports my declared desire to make sure that no shopworker suffers any hardship as a result of my Bill. Having said that, I find that in practical terms I cannot commend this amendment to your Lordships on the following grounds. Terms of employment are not regulated by the Home Office, and my Bill is entirely a matter for the Home Office.
Were the noble Lord to seek to make such a requirement law, then I would suggest he would have to frame his own Bill, addressed to the appropriate Ministry or Ministries; but were he to do so, he would find that he would have to include postal workers, transport workers and many other different kinds of workers. Therefore, a shopworker who felt himself to be victimised or unfairly dismissed on such grounds could appeal through already existing channels. So I fear that I must therefore turn down the noble Lord's amendment on the grounds that it is inappropriate in the context of my Bill.
Lord Davies of Leek: I should like to point out that I would have difficulty here. Perhaps I had better declare an interest on the pharmaceutical side. Local radio and newspapers now tell you, weekly, which chemist's shops are open on a Sunday; and it may be of absolutely vital importance that a particular drug is available on a Sunday in shop X, which may be open anywhere in a particular area in Britain. As your Lordships' know, reports are given out regularly as to which chemists' shops are open on a Sunday.
While I agree in exactly the same emotional way with the noble Baroness, I think we have to be very careful here, particularly in this area of pharmaceutical services to the public. It may be a matter of life and death, and, consequently, the religious issue would have to be worked out inside the chemist's shop. I do not know how it would be done. I think the Lord cured on the sabbath day anyway. The right reverend Prelate will perhaps tell me whether I am correct in my recollection of the Scriptures.
Lord Beswick: I quite agree with my noble friend that we have to be careful in these matters. Nevertheless, I should like to support the amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, has moved. On Saturday I listened to some very cogent words from the right
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honourable lady the Prime Minister about the permissive society and the social deterioration that has set in since the early permissive legislation of the right honourable Member for Hillhead. I look at these matters with the greatest degree of generosity, but it seems to me that the Bill which the noble Baroness is bringing forward is part of this permissive trend and is part of the social deterioration that has been taking place over the last 10, 20 or 30 years.
Of course the present legislation about shop opening is unsatisfactory. There are two ways of dealing with that unsatisfactory position. One is the way chosen by the noble Baroness—which is to throw up one's hands and say that anything goes, open when you like, let us have a free for all! That is one way. But I think that if we choose that way then social values will continue to deteriorate. I see the noble Baroness shakes her head. I do not want to get into a Second Reading speech, but I compare that sort of situation with that in the town where I was born, where on a Sunday morning when I was a schoolboy all that could be heard were the church bells ringing.
It is very different today and much less satisfactory. The noble Baroness is encouraging this deterioration in social values. To some extent, the amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge, has moved is trying to sustain something which I thought we all valued in this country, especially conservatives. To that extent, I am glad to support what he has moved and I hope that your Lordships will accept this amendment.
Baroness Seear: I should like in general to support this amendment. I think, however, that it is somewhat defective. It refers to Sundays, Christmas Day and Good Friday; but we are a multiracial society with a number of different religions, and if we are to have a clause of this kind in the Bill—and I hope we shall—it should be drafted in such a way that all religious scruple should be taken into account: that of Jews, Moslems, and the other religions which we now have in this country. I believe that the purpose of this Bill is correct, but I believe also that it should include a clause to make it possible for those people who on conscientious grounds feel they do not wish to work on these days, not to do so.
I do not understand the point that the noble Baroness made with regard to this being a Home Office Bill. Once it is a Bill and then an Act, it is the law of the land; it does not belong to the Home Office. If we want to put in religious exemptions for people with religious scruples, then this becomes part of the law of the land whether the Home Office like it or not. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, may consider withdrawing his amendment at this stage, in order that it can be reconsidered on broader grounds to cover the points that I have made, and then brought up again at a later stage.
The Lord Bishop of Rochester: In moving this amendment the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, referred to the fact that one of the parts to be omitted from the original Act did away with certain provisions which affected the Jewish faith. I think that that underlines the importance of what the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, has just said: that it would appear that there is

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ground for revising this in a more general way without the particular emphasis that the noble Lord has put on this amendment. I would support the noble Baroness in asking that he think about it again between now and the next stage of the Bill.
Baroness Phillips: I must declare an interest in that I try to be a Christian and a Catholic—sometimes that is very difficult with some of the people one has to contend with. I am very intrigued by the fact that this is to be put into this Bill. As I have said before, there would be no electricity or transport or telephone service on Sundays if somebody did not work. Already thousands of people have to work. I merely ask whether they have this right to say that they are Christians and do not wish to work. I am not going to say that it is right or wrong; but why do we select one particular trade or profession in inserting a qualification like this?
Lord Robbins: Listening to the speeches which have recently been made, I ask myself whether in those parts the relevant laws of which do not include such an exemption as is proposed by the noble Lord's initiative, there has been a marked contrasting effect as regards permissiveness and the deterioration of public morality. I have not observed it.
Lord Sainsbury: Although I am very sympathetic to this amendment, I am a little concerned about its effect on smaller shops where no alternative labour is easily available. It is doubtful whether it would prevent dismissal or the threat of dismissal from being imposed. Perhaps the Minister would give us some guidance as to whether these workers would be protected under the existing law.
Lord Belstead: I think I can answer that question off the cuff; but what occurs to me on hearing the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, is that I think his speech chimes in very well with the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, which suggested that in businesses which are depended upon for producing vital articles—and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, gave the example of a chemist's shop—which are probably not going to be particularly large businesses, it is necessary for the matter to be worked out at local level. It is with that point of view that I think the Government strongly agree.
Lord Collison: I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, has said. Obviously any number of people must work on Sundays to provide electricity, gas and water and all the other things which go to make up a decent civilised life. I do not want to get into theology but I cannot see that people who are prepared to do those jobs on Sundays are acting wrongly in terms of the Christian faith or any other faith. I intervene because I think that what has been said so far applies to farming, where we have a responsibility for animals which have to be fed, milked and looked after. One should think very carefully, I believe, before agreeing to something of this kind which other people would claim should be extended to their operations.
Baroness Trumpington: I should like to reply first to the noble Baroness, Lady Seear. I hope she will forgive me; I agree that I made a mistake. I am so very young in this House, but I take her point. I tried to bring out the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips. Why shopworkers, and why not all the others? I believe that in its application to this pluralistic society in which we live this amendment is too narrow. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, will agree that he has received a very sympathetic hearing and will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Robertson of Oakridge: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, for those final remarks, and I am also grateful to other noble Lords who have spoken. To deal with one or two points that have been raised, the original objection raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, that this would raise technical complications, is in a way more the problem of the sponsor of the Bill than my problem. It is the noble Baroness who is sweeping away the present law and creating a number of problems—solving some, I agree—and all we can do is put down amendments to the best of our ability and at a subsequent stage resolve any difficulties.
I take the point about differentiating between various kinds of workers. Regarding the remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Collison, there is all the difference between farm workers, who naturally have to work on a shift system seven days a week, and shopworkers who do not.
Regarding other faiths, I did not feel that I was qualified to speak for them. However, I take the point. I accept the misgivings expressed by the Committee. I should like to consider the points which have been raised and, with the Committee's permission, withdraw the amendment, bearing in mind the possibility of raising it again after further consideration at Report stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.1 p.m.
Lord Jacques moved Lord Jacques moved Amendment No. 4:
After Clause 1, insert the following new clause:
("Sunday trading.
.—(1) Every shop shall, save as otherwise provided by section, be closed for the serving of customers after 1 p.m. on Sunday:
Provided that a shop may be open for the serving of customers on Sunday for the purposes of any transaction mentioned in Schedule (Transactions for the purposes of which a shop may be open in England and Wales for the serving of customers on Sunday after 1 p.m.) to this Act.
(2) Where the area or any part of the area of a local authority is a district which is frequented as a holiday resort during certain seasons of the year, the local authority may by order provide that on such Sundays as may be specified in the order shops or any class of shops, being shops situated in the district or in such part thereof as may be so specified, may, subject to such conditions and during such hours as may be so specified, be open for the serving of customers, provided that the Sundays specified in any such order shall not be more than eighteen in any year.
(3) Goods sold retail to a customer shall not be delivered or dispatched for delivery from a shop at any time when under the provisions of this section a customer could not be served with those goods in that shop:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply

(a) on any Sunday being also Christmas Day; or

(b) on any Sunday when the succeeding Monday is Christmas Day.

(4) Nothing in this section shall prevent the sale, dispatch or delivery of victuals, stores or other necessaries required by any person for a ship or aircraft on her arrival at, or immediately before her departure from, a port or aerodrome.
(5) The foregoing provisions of this section shall extend to any place where any retail trade or business is carried on as if that place were a shop, and as if in relation to any such place the person by whom the retail trade or business is carried on were the occupier of a shop.
(6) In the case of any contravention of any of the foregoing provisions of this section, the occupier of the shop shall be liable to a fine not exceeding—

(a) in the case of a first offence, one hundred pounds;

(b) in the case of a second offence, five hundred pounds;

(c) in the case of a third or subsequent offence, one thousand pounds.

(7) A person who carries on the business of a shop, or carries on retail trade or business at any place not being a shop, on Sunday in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this section, shall not be deemed to commit an offence against any of the following enactments, namely

(a) the Sunday Fairs Act 1448; or

(b) the Act of the third year of His late Majesty King Charles the First, chapter three, for the further reformation of sundry abuses committed on the Lord's Day commonly called Sunday; or

(c) the Sunday Observance Act 1677.

(8) This section shall not extend to Scotland.").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 4 and, with the leave of the Committee, speak on Amendment No. 8 which is associated with Amendment No. 4. This Bill is concerned with shop hours. It tends to ignore completely the views and interests of both employers and employees. While there is a case for resisting domination by sectional interests, there is not and never has been a case for disregarding the points of view of those people who are most directly affected. In this case, it is the retailer and the shop-worker. These are the people whose views have been completely ignored.
The objections to this Bill from the chambers of commerce in the localities are just as strong as the objections from the trade unions. The employers are objecting just as strongly as the employees. After this House gave this Bill a Second Reading, the Retail Consortium, because it was so disturbed, immediately asked the Secretary of State to receive a deputation.
The retail consortium takes the view that before there is any change there should be an attempt to assess the consequences of the change. Surely that is reasonable. It also suggests that the best way of assessing the consequences of the change is to have an inquiry at which all parties are represented—that is, employers, employees and customers. I believe if that were done a satisfactory solution to this problem would be found, and it would be followed not by a Private Member's Bill but by Government legislation, which is the proper course for business of such public importance.
The consumer co-operative movement nine months ago came to the view that some kind of inquiry would inevitably be necessary within a very short time on the question of shop hours. It set up a study group to consider how best the interests of the consumer, the retailer and the shopworker could be reconciled; what possibilities there were of reconciliation in order that there was give and take to ail concerned, so that it was not one-sided. That study group reported in
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February. One of its most important recommendations, which has been accepted by the consumer cooperative movement, is this amendment which is now before the Committee.
The clause in this amendment is not new. It is taken from the 1950 Act and has been revised. This has been taken from Part IV of the 1950 Act and has been revised in order to bring it up to date and to give and take in such a way that there can be some kind of agreement. For example, subsection (1) is exactly as it is in Part IV of the 1950 Act except that the restrictions apply all day on a Sunday in that Act but in this amendment the restrictions will apply only after 1 p.m. That change is fundamental because it immediately eliminates a large part of the anomalies which have arisen. It means that on a Sunday morning a trader will be able to sell any goods. There will be no restrictions. If a customer went into a shop to purchase a newspaper and then decided to buy other items, he would not be told he could not buy something else. A customer would be able to buy anything up until 1 p.m. on a Sunday. That is the first change recommended by this amendment.
The second change is that we have looked at the schedule of transactions which are allowed on Sunday afternoons. This is the famous Schedule 7 to the 1950 Act. We have revised that schedule. Amendment No. 8 is the revised schedule of transactions which will be permitted on a Sunday afternoon. So far as we know we have eliminated all the anomalies which arose. For example, the schedule in the 1950 Act forbids the sale of fish and chips. But since 1950 there have been new developments such as Chinese take-away food shops. Consequently, it has been possible to purchase a Chinese take-away meal but not fish and chips. That is a clear anomaly and we have put that right. In that particular case, we have referred to ready-made meals on a take-away basis. That covers the lot.
Also in revising the schedule, we have brought it up to date. For example, we have tried to cater for the garden centre. The garden centre would up until one o'clock he able to sell everything, the same as any other trader. Up until one o'clock it would be able to sell those goods which made them a garden centre, but they would not be able to be a hardware shop as well—and that is what many of them are.
The exemption which is given here for Sunday afternoon sales is for,
"seeds, trees, plants, fertilisers and other chemicals or minerals used in gardening".
This clearly covers the garden centre in the correct usage of the term.
Lord Sainsbury: May I interrupt? Does it logically and completely cover the garden centre when garden tools and accessories are not mentioned? This illustrates that it is almost impossible to produce a schedule which does not draw arbitrary lines.
Lord Jacques: What I said—and what I repeat—is this: if the garden centre also wants to be a hardware shop and a builders' merchants, it can be up until one o'clock on a Sunday. Similarly, the builders' merchants and hardware shop could open until one o'clock. After one o'clock the garden centre could only sell the goods indicated in the schedule.

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The third change which has been made is in relation to holiday resorts. Under the present Act, the local authorities are given power to make orders in which they can authorise the sale of photographic materials, commodities needed for swimming and bathing, food and so on. That is a very limited range. This amendment gives local authorities power to make an order for a shop in that resort to sell everything it wants, but, during the holiday season, and the holiday season is taken to be as it is under the present law—18 Sundays a year—
Baroness Phillips: Would the noble Lord forgive me? Is there a definition of what is a holiday resort?
Lord Jacques: On that, we have retained the existing provisions of the present law: we have made no change. The fourth thing we have done, having improved the law to make it much more satisfactory, is to introduce fines for contravention of the law. Those fines are given in the amendment. I should like to say to those people who want seven-day free trading: you have to take into account the views of the retailer and the shop-worker, and by this amendment you are getting 93 per cent. of what you want. If this amendment is adopted we have free trade for 6½ days and on a time basis that is thirteen-fourteenths, or 93 per cent. So this amendment is conceding to those who want complete freedom for 7 days a week 93 per cent. of what they want.
We have also had from the consumer lobby agitation that we should be the same as Scotland. This amendment goes beyond the Scottish position. In Scotland at present you can have 6½ days' trading in the week, but you are subject to restrictions. On one day of the week you have to close at 9 o'clock and on the other days you have to close at 8 o'clock; so it is not completely free for 6½ days. But this amendment is giving complete freedom for Q, days without any restriction, and so it is going beyond the Scottish position. There is one point of difference. Whereas in Scotland at present the half-day for closing may be any day of the week, depending on where you are in Scotland, in this amendment in England and Wales the proposed half-day would be Sunday afternoon. Other than that, this amendment would give greater freedom than the law allows in Scotland.
There will be Members of this Committee who object to Sunday trading on either social or religious grounds, or both. I would say that we are with you in heart, but we believe this is the best way of doing it. If those who take that view act stubbornly and say: "No, we are going to have no change", eventually we shall reach the position where a free-for-all will be inflicted upon us whether we want it or not. We believe the best way is to be flexible and reasonable. Therefore, we suggest that the best way of avoiding the commercialisation of Sunday is to compromise, to have trading until 1 p.m. We believe that if there is trading until 1 p.m. only the small traders will be interested. There is no reason why the small traders should not be open to oblige the housewife until 1 p.m. if they want to. The multiples, the department stores and the hypermarkets would not be interested because of the closing at 1 p.m.
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We believe that this amendment would avoid the commercialisation of Sunday. Let nobody tell me that we are unlikely to get the commercialisation of Sunday. After seeing what has happened in certain states in America, I am fairly certain that we would get it. There are towns in America where the sale starts at 2 p.m. on Sundays as a regular thing and the high streets are busier than they are on Saturdays. That commercialisation would be avoided by this amendment and I therefore commend it to your Lordships.
In addition, I would say that if the Bill goes down the corridor to the other place with this amendment embodied in it, it will be regarded for what it is—an honest attempt to compromise, to be flexible and to have a bit of give-and-take and reach an agreement which is giving something to everybody and is not just one-sided. Because it is an honest attempt at compromise, it may get more support than has been given to shop Bills over the past 20 years. But if the Bill goes along the corridor without this amendment or some similar amendment, then it will be regarded for what it is—an attempt by the consumer activist lobby to impose their view on the retail trade and on the community in general, whether they want it or not, and it will suffer the same fate as other Bills have suffered in the past 20 years. That is my case and I present it for the consideration of the Committee.
4.15 p.m.
Baroness Trumpington: Let me say at once that I greatly welcome the significant shift of opinion which is represented in the amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, has so ably and courteously moved. Until recently certain interests have been implacably opposed to any change in the present law about shop hours, and in particular about Sunday trading. I do not say that the noble Lord is a spokesman for all those interests, and I dare say that at least some of them are still implacably opposed. Nevertheless, I greatly welcome the acceptance, which is implicit in this amendment, of the idea that all shops in England and Wales should be allowed to open at least on Sunday mornings.
However, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, with whom he has consulted? With regard to the opposition en bloc of chambers of commerce, he is, if I may say so, wrong because I have had consultations with, and the utmost support from, the Croydon Chamber of Commerce, for instance. My noble friend the Minister, following the original speech by the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, really said it all with regard to consultation, from my point of view. However, I have carried out certain consultations of my own—of course I have—and I have consulted certain members of the different Churches. I have actually been telephoned by members of the Jewish faith and the retail trade, certainly; but it takes two to tango and I may say that USDAW has not seen fit to tango with me!
If, as I understand it to be the case, it is now the view of the Co-operative movement that shops should be allowed to open on Sunday mornings, that represents a considerable change of heart on their part, or at least it represents a public expression, for the first time so far as I know, of the acceptance of the idea of Sunday trading. It may well be that it deserves

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the accolade of that somewhat over-used epithet and should be called "a breakthrough". Although the amendment does not go quite so far as having the support of the shop workers' union, USDAW, it has what I might call the next best thing. Coming as it does from the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, it is a matter of the greatest consequence in the long battle for the reform of the shop hours law.
I am tempted to accept the compromise which is offered in the form of this amendment. It would certainly be a great improvement on the present position, and it could very well be that if the Bill goes through in its present form almost all shops who wish to trade on Sundays will open only on Sunday mornings and that their purposes—and, more importantly, those of their customers—would be met by a change in the law such as that represented by this amendment.
I wish therefore that I could accept the amendment, but I regret that I cannot. The reason is this: the whole principle on which this Bill is based is that it is not for Parliament, not for Ministers, not for councils, not for bureaucrats, not for consumer organisations or anybody else to dictate to shops when they are to open and when they are to close for trade. Ours is a free society—or it is meant to be—and unless there are powerful reasons why a person should not do what he wants to, then he should be allowed to do it. I simply do not see why the law should dictate to a shopkeeper, whether he likes it or not, that he must be closed on a Sunday afternoon. It is, in point of principle, just as inappropriate as dictating to him that he must be closed on a Sunday morning. We have no business at all to dictate to him. We wish to give to the shopkeepers of England and Wales the freedom and the opportunities which are already available to the shopkeepers of Scotland. That is the main reason why I am, with regret, unable to accept this amendment.
I now come on to consider some of the other provisions which are proposed by this amendment. The noble Lord puts forward a set of exemptions to the Sunday closing requirements, which are set out in the schedule. These have a sadly familiar look to them. It is true, as the noble Lord said, that some of the more glaring anomalies found in the Fifth Schedule to the 1950 Act have been removed, but many nonsenses remain. Let me point out just one or two. We start, as always, with intoxicating liquors. They always seem to rank first in any list of this kind. They are still there, and I congratulate the noble Lord, on agreeing that they should continue to be sold even on a Sunday afternoon. But I fail to see why they are singled out in preference, for instance, to tinned baby food. It will remain the law, under the noble Lord's proposals, that a mother may buy gin for herself but not tinned milk powder for her baby. This is one of the anomalies in the present law, which are highlighted by those who have campaigned for an end to the present abominable absurdities, and it will remain one, even if the matter is improved in the way that the noble Lord now proposes.
Then I see that the noble Lord proposes that there should be an exemption for,
"(e) products without which it would not be possible to keep a vehicle (including a caravan) on the road, with corresponding arrangements for aircraft and boats".
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That proposed exemption replaces one in the Fifth Schedule to the present Act, which states:
"(h) aircraft, motor, or cycle supplies or accessories".
What do we make of that? It seems to me that the noble Lord wishes to introduce boats and caravans to the present list of privileged means of transport which may be serviced on Sundays. Fine, but what about bicycles? The noble Lord seems to have eliminated them altogether. I do not know whether the noble Lord has anything against bicycles, or whether they have been left out of the list by mistake. But at one fell swoop, your Lordships' freedom to buy a puncture repair kit or a cycle pump on a Sunday after 1 p.m. has vanished.
If you happen to be cycling to Evensong to listen to an inspiring sermon, then in such circumstances the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, proposes that it should become a crime for you to buy such a kit or such a pump, or even a new inner tube, after 1 p.m. on a Sunday, even though both you and the cycle shop wish to trade in this innocent way, and even though it is permitted under the present law. What are we to make of that? I rather thought that, with the energy crisis and the recession, bicycles were coming back into use again on a large scale. The noble Lord is doing little to encourage them with his amendment.
The new schedule of exemptions does something to improve the lot of garden centres, as the noble Lord said when he mentioned them. But if I am with my family at a garden centre on a summer afternoon and buy some seeds and fertiliser, why should the garden centre have suddenly changed its nature just because I am there at two minutes past one? I simply cannot understand it. Why also has the noble Lord omitted that much-maligned partly cooked tripe from his list? I could go on. I could easily attract a few cheap laughs by pointing out further anomalies in the noble Lord's list of exemptions, but I do not wish to do that.
The noble Lord has striven manfully, or should I say nobly?, to produce a sensible list of exemptions but it cannot be done. It is inherent in any list of exemptions of this kind that absurdities and anomalies will arise. It is one of the main reasons why I want to see them all swept away. The noble Lord, Lord Jacques, commands the greatest respect of all sides of this House, and outside this House as well. If he is unable to come up with a list of exemptions which make sense, which does not lend itself to the ridiculous, we then may safely conclude that it is beyond the wit of man to devise such a list. Therefore, I think we ought to conclude that the right course is to reject this approach altogether, and that is what the Bill does. I have not dealt with the other provisions in this amendment, but they are substantially to like effect. They tinker with the law where the bold approach is called for. With regret, therefore, I am unable to accept them.
Baroness Seear: When I hear that the employers and the trade unions are in agreement about something, I know that there is a snag in it and that somebody has to say that there is another interest which needs to be defended. The noble Lord, Lord Jacques, said that we need to have an inquiry. We have been pressing for changes in the Shops Acts for at least

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20 years. They have had 20 years in which to have this inquiry, and it has not come.
The amendment moved by the noble Lord has a seductive look at first sight. There is an attraction in the idea of continuing only until midday on Sunday, although, having regard to what we were talking about on a previous amendment, if it was attendance at church services that people were concerned about we might say that shops should keep shut until one o'clock and open on Sunday afternoon. That would he quite a powerful argument if we were to divide Sunday. But there can be no doubt that the noble Baroness is right and that this, for all its seductive appearance, is a wrecking amendment. It cuts across the whole purpose of this Bill, which is to leave it to the decision of the shopkeeper and his employees whether they will keep open or not, and they will make a judgment as to what their consumers want. I should like to make the point that it should not be assumed in this discussion that, because some shops keep open, all the others will be forced to do so. That is not what will happen. As for the schedule, the noble Baroness has said enough. The schedule simply enshrines the old schedule touched up, or tarted up, here and there to make it look like 1982. We do not want schedules of this kind. They are a nonsense. I fear that we on these Benches cannot support the amendment.
4 27 pm
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: I venture to intervene on this new clause, because my first ministerial task was concerned with the 1957 Shops Bill—the abortive Bill. I then formed the view, from which I have never departed, that the present law is quite indefensible. It is riddled with anomaly; so riddled with anomaly that it is widely disregarded, and that brings the law generally into disrepute. Unfortunately, I could not attend the Second Reading of the noble Baroness's Bill, but I read the report of the debate with great interest and admiration. I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, although apparently losing nothing of his strength of expression, showed a tendency to compromise; and this new clause is undoubtedly an attempt to compromise. I take with a pinch of salt his figure of 93 per cent. which he has conceded, because he is by that taking credit for such freedoms as are vouchsafed by the existing law. What he has done is to concede 50 per cent.
He rightly claims that his new clause gets rid of some of the anomalies. So it does. It gets rid of such of those anomalies as are shown by what happens in England and Wales before one o'clock. But after one o'clock, all the anomalies stand absolutely unimpaired. I was glad that the noble Baroness was not tempted by the noble Lord's blandishments to accept the amendment as a compromise. This Bill stands no chance, I fear, of passing into law this Session. No Government at this stage of a Parliament would risk touching sabbatarian opinion. So nothing is gained by yielding, as both noble Baronesses have pointed out, a whole mass of existing anomalies. That is my first reason for venturing to oppose this clause: that it perpetuates the anomalies which have
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brought the existing law, and thus the law generally, into disrepute.
My second reason is that it is quite unnecessary. That is shown if one looks at subsection (8) of the new clause. The new clause does not extend to Scotland. And rightly it does not extend to Scotland, because Scotland gets on perfectly well without a clause of this sort. When I was a Member of another place the most effective debater there was Aneurin Bevan. One of his most striking phrases was, "Why read the crystal when you can read the book?" As I read the Second Reading debate, the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, some other noble Lords and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich had looked into the crystal ball and had been horrified by what they saw there. What they saw were shops open 11 hours a day, seven days a week, shop assistants tied to the counters for all those hours, their trade union quite impotent to help them, and the co-operative having to follow suit and similarly ill-use their employees.
In addition to the employment aspect, what was also seen in the crystal ball was the disruption of family life: a woeful falling-off from the dignity, the cohesion and the stability which at the moment marks family life in England and Wales. Naturally the noble Lord and those others who looked into the crystal ball were repelled by what they saw. But if they had not looked into the crystal ball and instead had read the book of Scotland they would have seen that those phantasmagoria were quite unnecessary and non-existent.
All that the noble Baroness asks us to do by her Bill is to follow Scotland in a sensible law. Although, therefore, I recognise that the noble Lord put forward this new clause in a genuine spirit of compromise, I was glad that the noble Baroness would not accept it.
4.33 p.m.
Lord Underhill: To a number of noble Lords, particularly myself, this debate shows the difficulty which we are in. One recognises that there are anomalies, that the law is in disrepute and that therefore one needs to change it. But the more I hear some of the speeches the more I come to the conclusion that, if we can see anomalies in my noble friend's amendment, the position had better be left as it is.
The noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, asked what right anybody has to interfere with the rights of shopkeepers and consumers. But do I want to see Ilford Broadway on a Sunday as it is on a Saturday, with all the surrounding streets chock-a-block with cars? Do not those people have an interest? They may not want to go to the shops and they may not be shopkeepers. Surely they have an interest in this. Similarly I made up my mind not to watch my local football team play on a Sunday, first because I have other things to do, and secondly because it affects all the surrounding streets. Residents surely have an interest, but nobody has mentioned their position.
It is argued that if we support the noble Baroness's Bill the changes will be very slight. Who can guarantee that? We are not passing a Bill just for 1982. We are passing it for 1987 or 1992. Gradually the shops will open and the character of Sunday trading will change. It has been mentioned that there may be inadequate protection for shopworkers. If we

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look at the reports of the number of workers at Foyle's who have been dismissed just for joining a trade union, I think we shall have to consider very carefully the position of any man or woman who says that for social or family reasons he or she does not wish to work on a Sunday. What will be their position? Surely people who do not wish to work on Sunday must be exempted.
One can argue against my noble friend's amendment and make jocular remarks about it, but either we find a way of amending my noble friend's amendment at another stage or noble Lords like me will be tempted to oppose the Bill because we believe that an extension of Sunday trading on the lines proposed by the noble Baroness will lead to a change of life. It will affect areas around the shops. We are not thinking just of the corner shop or of the village shop. We are thinking of a possible change in the large and even in the suburban shopping centres which will affect all the people living around those areas. They must be considered.
Lord Milverton: I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Jacques. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, that if the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, cannot be agreed to, we should oppose the Bill, for the reasons which the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, gave. Surely there ought to be one day in the week when a man and a woman need not think of money-making. That is one reason why I support the noble Lord, Lord Jacques. As the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said, unless we are careful, Sunday will become just another money-making day. I know that there have to be gas and electricity, but surely one ought to try to keep to a minimum the supply of such necessary services. This is one day in the week which ought to be kept apart for worship and for healthy recreation.
4.38 p.m.
Lord Harris of High Cross: May I express regret that the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod of Borve, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, do not appear to be intending to take part in the debate. I would not claim to he a very good substitute for either, let alone for both of the noble Baronesses. They spoke on Second Reading as housewives and as Christians who are concerned with attending church but as people who saw no necessary conflict between that and the removal of restrictions on shopping. I find myself in an identical position. I always find it more convenient to go to morning service at my church. After the 10.30 service, and lingering over some fellowship and coffee, I would not derive any advantage from the concession offered by the noble Lord, Lord Jacques. It may give somebody else 50 per cent. of freedom, but it would deny me 100 per cent. of my freedom to go shopping with my family on a Sunday afternoon.
There are all kinds of circumstances in which that might be a sensible and harmonious activity.
I applaud the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, who intervened to point out that as soon as you begin to draw lines you throw up anomalies. There are a whole variety of ways in which each of us might wish to specify particular exemptions and make a strong case for them, but it is a preposterous thing to keep on
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making distinctions between days of the week and hours of the day. If one looks at the amendment and the schedule, there are real problems. The noble Baroness, Lady Macleod of Borve, pointed out that bazaars on a Sunday are particularly well attended, and bazaars are usually held in the afternoon. We find that after one o'clock, under the schedule, non-profit making sales are allowed, which might include bazaars—but only sales of second-hand goods. However, there are bring-and-buy stalls and tombolas which are not confined to offering alcoholic refreshment but also such items as a bottle of tomato ketchup. I forget what the fine was in the earlier part of the amendment, but there would be a substantial fine for including tomato ketchup in the tombola at a church bazaar after one o'clock on a Sunday.
I pointed out at Second Reading that a great example had been set by the noble Duke, the Duke of Bedford, and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, by opening their country homes throughout the week, and throughout the year in some cases, to provide a remarkable opportunity for family outings. Visits to Woburn and Hatfield House are a great delight for people living in north London, as I do. Associated with those visits are a variety of shops and stalls. It would be preposterous to have people going round with lists of what it might he permitted to sell after one o'clock, or what it was forbidden to sell after that time. I argued at Second Reading, as I do now, that it is better to leave it to Dukes and other tradespeople to decide when it will suit them to have customers and to ply their mutually beneficial trade.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, pointed out during her speech at Second Reading, from her great experience as a shopper, that one shop—I believe it was Whiteleys, a furniture shop—might have been saved if it had been allowed to open during times forbidden under the old law, but had gone out of business. Another noble Lord, who is not with us today, declared an interest in garden centres and pointed out that the law allowed the sale of plants but prohibited the sale of decorative pots in which to put them; or allowed the sale of trees but forbade the sale of a spade with which to plant the tree. This Bill exactly reproduces many of these dilemmas. I applaud the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, for his readiness to make concessions, which obviously he would have been reluctant to do at an earlier stage. I hope he will take comfort from the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, who said that, if one looks into the record of Scotland and indeed of France, where I have travelled a certain amount in visiting my family, one does not find that Sunday becomes just another Saturday, which is one of the noble Lord's refrains.
Lord Jacques: If the noble Lord, Lord Harris of High Cross, will kindly give way, I should like to make it clear that Scotland is quite different from England and Wales so far as shopping is concerned Apart from two or three large towns, Scotland is a series of small towns and villages. The multiples are not established in Scotland as they are in England and Wales. The outcome of this Bill would be entirely different in England and Wales from what it would be in Scotland; it would be more like what happened in America.
Lord Harris of High Cross: I have lived some of my life in Scotland, in Edinburgh and Kirkcaldy, and I was not even aware that the Shops Act was different in that country from that of England, with which I am more familiar. Returning to Scotland, I gather that there has recently been a development, particularly in Glasgow and Edinburgh, where some of the large shops have opened on Sundays just before Christmas. Again, this provides an opportunity for many families to go shopping together. Not every shop opened; some shops opened but others stuck to their guns and did not open. The argument that it has to be "all or nothing" and a free-for-all, with the abandonment of any kind of restraint, is not one that is fulfilled in experience. I urge the noble Lord to consider whether the logic and coherence of a simple Bill to repeal these old and discredited statutes, which the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, is proposing, should be marred by an effort to bring back bit by bit some of the old anomalies and whether, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, we should say that we can rid ourselves of anomalies until one o'clock but restore the full effect of them after that time.
4.46 p.m.
Lord Young of Dartington: The noble Lord, Lord Jacques, did not seem to me to speak in the warmest possible terms about the consumer activist lobby, which is what he thought it right to call it. Speaking on behalf of that lobby—and on this question, I believe that I can speak for the Consumers' Association and for the National Consumer Council—I should like to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, for the sign of movement that there has been on his part. I should like to support what the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, has already said in expressing her gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, and those who are with him on this point. It does represent a considerable advance. In one way, one could say that the Co-operative Movement (and we hope that the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, speaks for the Co-operative Movement) is not now going to regard Sunday trading as wholly wrong, but only wrong in the afternoons. Although that might not seem, on the face of it, such a large advance, it seems to me that, if a change in the law of this kind was made, the people of this country would find shopping a good deal easier, and would feel more sure about where they stood.
Even so, and even after expressing this gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, I should like to urge him to go further than he has been prepared to go in the past few weeks (though that is a good way) and urge him to go the whole way, as a means of removing the anomalies about which we have heard so much. The noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, gave us a list of the anomalies as they will again stand, even under the proposals made by the noble Lord, Lord Jacques. There has been some tidying up in the schedule to this Bill, but I fear—and I believe other noble Lords would agree with me—that in tidying up some of the anomalies, there is introduced a major new anomaly related to the queston of time. This major new anomaly will, I fear, act only to bring the law further into disrepute. It is something that I hope we would all be very much against.
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Imagine the situation in a general store in a village, a town or part of any of our cities on a typical Sunday morning. It is getting near the critical and crucial hour of one o'clock. People may have their radios on. Big Ben strikes. The father says to his wife, "Good Heavens! What can we do now? Can we sell tinned food, now that it is after one o'clock? "No, we cannot. But can we sell fresh food? Yes, I think we can. Go and look at the schedule to the Bill. Bring it down and let us have a close look at it, to make sure what we can and cannot do". As the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury said, if it was a shop that sold seeds, it would not be allowed to sell spades. Before one o'clock, perfectly all right; after one o'clock not.
All these anomalies that are present anyway in the law at the moment, and would be there even under the law as amended, would in some ways be made more grievous just because there is a new time limit on what can be done and what cannot be done. I think the people of this country would find it even more difficult to understand the good sense in a law which allowed anything to be sold before one o'clock and then only what would appear to most people to be an arbitrary list of certain things to be sold after one o'clock. All these exemptions and time limits and so on seem to me to show that in this kind of partial, compromise amendment to the law there can be no reliance upon principle, and if there cannot be reliance upon principle retailers will be confused, the police will be confused and certainly members of the consuming public will be confused.
The only sound principle we can act upon is that of freedom: freedom of shopkeepers and shop assistants to decide when they want to open, whether on Sundays or not, and freedom for consumers to buy where and when shopkeepers are willing to sell to them. Scotland, as we have heard, has already observed this principle, with no great harm but only good to the consuming public. It seems to me right that we should now rely on the principle that should have been there long ago, which now, if Lady Trumpington's Bill is supported and this amendment is rejected, will be the principle upon which the law will be based.
4.53 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: May I speak for a moment against this amendment. which I see as being very much a two-edged weapon. The noble Lord, Lord Jacques, attempts to give with the one hand and rapidly takes away with the other in the terms of his schedule. r really cannot believe for one minute that the disaster which he foresees is likely to happen. I cannot see either that there is likely to be any conflict between an employed person and his employer. May I remind the Committee that I ran petrol stations for some years and I had to work on a Sunday because my staff liked to go to church or do other things. Other people came in in the afternoon. That kind of work, indeed the kind of work likely to be offered in the smaller shops, is going to appeal to those who want part-time work. The part-time worker comes from all walks of life—socio-economic groups I think they are now called. Sometimes it is for need of additional money and sometimes the need to get out and do something they think useful.
I find myself quite surprised that the noble Lord, Lord

1185
Beswick, in his remarks on the earlier amendment, and also in the same vein the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, both seemed to reject change. I find that totally remarkable: on the one hand, the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, involved so heavily as he has been in industry and commerce, the failure of which is because we will not make change. Then the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, who has been so involved with work and workpeople and opportunities, does not want the change in Sunday trading throughout all the range of goods, be it liquor or tea, be it porno magazines or bibles, be it petrol or bicycles; that that opportunity should not be given to enterprising shopkeepers. If the shopkeeper cannot employ the people he will not open; if the customers do not come he closes his business; he is not going to just stay open unless he sells something.
So far as the area is concerned and the reduction in the standard of life, what a lot of nonsense that is! We live in a real world, where all sorts of things should and do happen. If the streets surrounding these residents become totally congested on a Sunday there are adequate resources open to the local authority to stop that. The anomalies that any schedule will produce will always exist; you have really got to get rid of it. You either want enterprise, the job opportunity that such enterprise brings, or you go back to the totally unsatisfactory state which has existed for the 20 years we have been talking about it, and before that. Let me remind your Lordships that most prosecutions come about as a result of an informer; trading standards officers do not want to work all the days and so there has to be rostering to cover the matter. You would get rid of all that aggravation. I think the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, has sweetly proposed a return to the old days, in contradiction to the ideals that my noble friend Lady Trumpington sets down in offering this Bill.
Lord Beswick: I really fail to see why the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, should think that because I want one quiet day a week I am against change. Of course I am in favour of all sorts of change. I have been involved in one industry most of my life which has possibly seen more change than most others. But I want industrial change so that we can improve the quality of life. I do not think this sort of change is going to improve the quality of life. I think we should consider very carefully before we follow the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, and the right honourable gentleman the Member for Hillhead any further down this permissive road.
I am bound to say I was almost tempted to engage in debate with my noble friend Lord Harris, whom I am pleased to see back, about the merits of stimulating eight o'clock communion as against the rather lazy 10.30 eucharist that he apparently favours. I will not pursue that. I do not understand why, if he wants to go to church on Sunday morning, he should still say it has got to be noisy in the afternoon as well.
I have been worried by the way this debate has gone, because I think we are tempted to get too clever about compromises. It is so easy to be funny about selling ketchup at five minutes past one as against 12.55. I was amazed when noble Lords started talking so cleverly and wittily about the implications of a six
1186
o'clock or eight o'clock closure. A lot of the best things in life have arisen from the fact that we have said: "So far and no further; we can go to a certain time but we do not want to go any further."
I was going to rise earlier because I wanted to pay tribute to the wonderfully reasoned speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington. For half of her speech I thought she was going to give way and I was feeling very warmly disposed towards her. Then she advanced some most extraordinary reasons for being against the amendment. I look at the noble Baroness, whom I have always regarded as being a pillar of conservatism, and I wonder how far she is now prepared to go. She herself said she could go even further. I do not know quite in what direction. She said not for her, or not for the Government, not for any law should shopkeepers be restricted; it was not for the Government, it was not for the law makers to say how we should behave. I wonder if she really means that. We might as well say to boxers in the ring that it is not for the referee to say how they should knock each other out. Surely we must have some type of rules if we are to have anything approaching a civilised life?
If the noble Baroness gets the Bill through, is she going to abolish all licensing laws'? Apparently she will have the support of the Social Democratic Party, because they hate to think that anything should be wrong at 10 minutes past 10 when it was legal at 10 minutes to 10. Is the noble Baroness going to embark upon a crusade in that connection? What about safety legislation? When we get going down this slope, why should we have all these rules and regulations even if they do involve safety? I know that there is a difference. But I am telling the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that once we get going down this slope it will be very difficult to hold up.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: I think that the noble Lord is perhaps a little unfair in looking at me, because I was smiling at the way in which he had taken out of context what my noble friend had said.
Lord Beswick: If I have done so and if I have misrepresented what the noble Baroness said, then I am sorry. But it seemed to me that the noble Baroness was making a very powerful case in the second half of her speech for a complete free-for-all in our economy and our society. I am venturing to say that, if we pursue that course, then we shall have cause to regret it. My noble friend Lord Jacques has come forward with a compromise. Anybody who brings forward a compromise can he criticised for inconsistency—he can have one matter played off against him by another. I know that there is a difficulty for a "compromiser". However, I think that it is a sincere compromise that he is putting forward and, although I have hitherto voiced the opinion of being against any movement along the lines suggested in these amendments, I would support the amendment and I hope that the Committee will support it. If we do not support it, I hope that will be the final reason for not accepting the Bill at all.
Lord Somers: A great deal has been said about the matter of making compromises. I think that we must all realise that some compromises are absolutely inescapable. If one lives alone or without any domestic

1187
staff, for instance, one must take into consideration the fact that that one has to do one's ordinary cooking and cleaning and so on, on Sundays. In the far distant days when I was a professional organist, one's chief work came on a Sunday. None the less, I think that one can accept those compromises and yet keep the feeling of Sunday being different from other days, and preserve the feeling of the sanctity, as it were, of the Sabbath in spite of making these, on the surface, compromises.
Lord Jacques: I am hoping that this might be the time to close this debate. I have a whole sheaf of notes which would allow me to reply to the debate, but quite frankly I think that your Lordships have all made up your minds as to whether you are going to vote for or against. I suggest that we take the vote and I therefore invite the Committee to divide.
5.4 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 46; Not-Contents, 118.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Beswick, L.

Kearton, L.

Blease, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Blyton, L.

Listowel, E.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Longford, E.

Briginshaw, L.

McCarthy, L.

Brockway, L.

Milverton, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Molloy, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Oram, L.

Cledwyn of Penhros, L.

Peart, L.

Collison, L.

Robertson of Oakridge, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Shinwell, L.

David, B.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Davies of Leek, L.

Stone, L.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Strauss, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Underhill, L. [Teller]

Gaitskell, B.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Hanworth, V.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Ingleby, V.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

White, B.

Jacques, L. [Teller]

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

John-Mackie, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Daventry, V.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Davidson, V.

Ampthill, L.

Denham, L.

Ardwick, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Avon, E.

Ebbisham, L.

Aylestone, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Banks, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Bellwin, L.

Foot, L.

Beloff, L.

Fortescue, E.

Belstead, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Bessborough, E.

Gainsborough, E.

Blake, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Gladwyn, L.

Cathcart, E.

Glasgow, E.

Cockfield, L.

Glenkinglas, L.

Colwyn, L.

Gormanston, V.

Cottesloe, L.

Grey, E.

Cowley, E.

Gridley, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Haig, E.

1188

Hailsham of Saint

Perry of Walton, L.

Marylebone, L.

Porritt, L.

Halsbury, E.

Portland, D.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Harris of High Cross, L.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Hayter, L.

Reigate, L.

Henley, L.

Renton, L.

Hives, L.

Richardson, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Robbins, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Romney, E.

Hunt, L.

St. Davids, V.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Sandford, L.

Ilchester, E.

Sandys, L.

Jeger, B.

Seear, B.

Killearn, L.

Seebohm, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Kimberley, E.

Sharples, B.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Shepherd, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Simon of Glaisdale, L.

Lothian, M.

Spens, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Lyell, L.

Stedman, B.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Strathcona and Mount

Mackintosh of Halifax, V.

Royal, L.

[Teller]

Strathspey, L.

Mancroft, L.

Swinfen, L.

Margadale, L.

Terrington, L.

Marley, L.

Tordoff, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Trefgarne, L.

Mersey, V.

Trenchard, V.

Monk Bretton, L.

Trumpington, B [Teller]

Monson, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Mountevans, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, E.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Vivian, L.

Newall, L.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Northchurch, B.

Ward of Witley, V.

Northfield, L.

Winstanley, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Orkney, E.

Young, B.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

Pender, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
5.14 p.m.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Wootton of Abinger): I have to point out to the Committee that if Amendment No. 5 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 6.
Clause 2 [Short title, commencement and extent]:
Baroness Trumpington Baroness Trumpington moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 1, line 12, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
("(2) This Act shall come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may appoint by order made by statutory instrument; and different days may be appointed for different provisions of this Act and for different purposes of the same provision.").
The noble Baroness said: This amendment substitutes different commencement provisions for those provided in the Bill. At present Clause 2(2) provides that the Bill is to come into force one month from the day on which it is passed. This may be too swift. Instead, it will now be provided that the Bill, when it becomes an Act, shall:
"come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may provide by order made by statutory instrument",
and he can make parts of it come into force at different times if he wants to.
This reason is as follows: under the Shops Act 1950 there are various sets of regulations which have effect for various purposes. Some of these were made

1189
under parts of the Act which are now to be repealed. Other regulations were made under parts of the Act which are to be retained, and these may well need some adaptation to meet the new situation. Those arising under the parts to be repealed will have to be revoked. All this may take a little time to work out. A certain amount of consultation will be necessary before the new regulations can be prepared. Until they are ready, the existing law ought to continue in force before the day arrives when shops are first able to open as they want, which is the purpose of the Bill. All the necessary tidying up, not only to primary legislation, but to subordinate legislation, will have to be attended to. I very much hope that there will be no undue delay in bringing the Act into force on this account, and I accept the necessity of delegating to the Home Secretary the power to bring the new provisions into force without tying him down to naming a date. I beg to move.
Lord Bishopston: I speak briefly, to say that I think the Committee will welcome this change of view from "one month" at present in the Bill. I hope that it also affords more time for consultation with all those who may be affected by the subsequent changes.
Baroness Seear: We on these Benches also welcome this amendment. One month was undoubtedly too short for consultation. This is a great improvement.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 6 not moved.]
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Trumpington Baroness Trumpington moved Amendment No. 7:
After Clause 2, insert the following new Schedule—
("SCHEDULE

REPEALS

1950 c. 28

Shops Act 1950.

In section 21(8), the words "and Part III of this Act".

In section 22—

(a)in subsection (3), the words from "by virtue of" to "sixty-two";

(b) subsection (5); and

(c) in subsection (6), the second sentence.

In section 44(2), the words "Save as aforesaid" and "Part I or".

In section 45, the words "Part I or".

In section 46, the words "I or".

In section 69(1), paragraphs(b)to (d) and, in paragraph (e), the words "Part I" and "Part III".

In section 71—

(a) in subsection (1), the words from "and of" to "those provisions" and the words "and such orders as afore said"; and

(b) in subsection (7)(b), the words "or Part IV".

In section 74(1), the definition of "butcher's

meat", "closing order", "early closing day". "general closing hours" and "Kosher meat".

Schedule 1.

Schedule 2.

Schedules 4 to 7.

1963 c. 33.

London Government Act 1963.

Section 51(3).

1969 c. 48.

Post Office Act 1969.

In Schedule 4, in paragraph 51, the words from "Schedule 2" to "on Sunday)".

1971 c. 23.

Courts Act 1971.

In Schedule 9, in Part I, the entry relating to the Shops Act 1950.

1972 c. 71.

Criminal Justice Act 1972.

Section 31.

1977 c. 49.

National Health Service Act 1977.

In Schedule 14, in paragraph 13(1)(b), the words "and 57";

1980 c. xi.

West Midlands County Council Act 1980.

Section 88.

1981 c. xvii.

Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1981.

Section 20. Schedule 3.")

The noble Baroness said: I have already spoken to this amendment and, therefore, I move it formally.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 8 not moved.]
House resumed: Bill reported with the amendments.

Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
5.18 p.m.
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Belstead.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER in the Chair.]
Clauses 21 and 22 agreed to.
Viscount Ridley Viscount Ridley moved Amendment No. 89B:
After Clause 22, insert the following new clause:
("Control of road-side sales.
—(1) Except as provided in subsection (4) below, no person shall, for the purpose of selling anything, or offering or exposing anything for sale, use any container or vehicle, or stall or similar structure, kept or placed on—

(a) the verge, including any lay-by, of any road to which this section applies; or

(b) any common land or unenclosed land of any description adjacent to, and within 15 metres of, any such road;

where the use of that thing for that purpose causes or is likely to cause danger on, or obstruction of the passage of traffic over, the road.
(2) This section applies to any trunk road and any principal road which is not specified in a control order under section 7 of the Act of 1976.
(3) Any person who contravenes this section shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50.
(4) This section does not apply to—

(a) the use of any container, vehicle, stall or structure placed on private property by or with the consent of the owner or occupier of the property;

1191

(b) the sale, offer or exposure for sale of things from or on, or on a container on, a vehicle which is used only for the purpose of itinerant trading with the occupants of premises, or which is used for that purpose and for purposes other than trading;

(c) the sale, offer or exposure for sale of newspapers; or

(d) anything done at a market in respect of which tolls, stallages or rents are payable.

(5) In this section:
"trunk road" shall have the meaning assigned to it by section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980.
"principal road" means any highway classified as a principal road in accordance with section 12 of the Highways Act 1980.").
The noble Viscount said: I apologise to the Committee for putting down this rather lengthy amendment at this stage in the proceedings, but since our previous discussions on this Bill it has become apparent to me, and I think to many others in local authority circles, that there is here a loophole with which we should seek to deal. There is the possibility for highway authorities that roadside sales, which I have tried to define in this amendment, are a hazard. They have caused accidents and are liable to cause accidents, and should be controlled in some way or other. Highway authorities should have power to deal with them.
There is no objection in principle to selling things beside the road, and it is commonly and frequently done; but it has been known to cause serious accidents. People park on one side and run across to the other side to buy a newspaper, or an ice cream, or whatever. In the interest of public safety, the Association of County Councils, which comprises most, if not all, of the highway authorities of England and Wales, would like to see this clause inserted in the Bill. I beg to move.
Lord Bellwin: The Government have no objection in principle to further provision to control roadside sales. However, there is a need to amend the drafting of this clause so as to avoid speaking in terms of an "obstruction of the passage of traffic over, the road", when it appears that an obstruction on the highway, irrespective of its effect on passage, is a nuisance. Also, it appears to be necessary for other changes to be made to fit the clause into the context of this Bill. I should therefore like to tell my noble friend that we would want to consider the clause in more detail with a view to a Government amendment being put down at Report.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: While not disagreeing with the noble Viscount—and I have not been approached by any organisation—I am a little concerned about the long distance lorry driver. Going along trunk roads in the country one finds that many long distance lorry drivers use the lay-by and take their hot bacon sandwich and mug of tea and their rest as part of the statutory rest time which the lorry driver has to take. I am concerned that perhaps that might be abolished by this clause.
We are all trying to get the long distance lorry drivers out of the towns, and this would limit the number of places where they would be able to pull up and take refreshment on their long journeys, bearing in mind the statutory duty on them to have a rest. I rise purely on those grounds to see that the facilities they have are safeguarded, bearing in mind that the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, I am sure, will want to preserve
1192
many of our old towns from the danger inherent in the intrusion of long distance lorry drivers. If this clause went through it might mean that they would have to come into the towns and there park.
Viscount Ridley: I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She is right to raise the problem of the long distance lorry driver. I think there is almost no Member of this House who has not occasionally used a roadside lay-by and bought a sausage, or something, in the course of passing by. There is no intention to prohibit this. Clearly we ought to have some means of control whereby the dangerous ones can be moved on. I shall not, but I could weary your Lordships with terrifying photographs of dangerous places where these things happen and where no control exists. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for the suggestion that this situation could be looked at and dealt with by a Government amendment, which would undoubtedly be better than anything I could produce. With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 23 [Paving of yards and passages]:
Lord Bellwin moved Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 90:
Page 23, line 11, leave out ("the owner of the building") and insert ("any person who is the owner of any of the buildings").
The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 24 [Building regulations]:
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 91:
Page 24, line 19, after ("which,") insert ("or").
The noble Lord said: This is also a drafting amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 25 and 26 agreed to.
Clause 27 [Control of demolitions]:
5.25 p.m.
Lord Bellwin moved Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 92:
Page 28, line 30, leave out from ("who") to ("shall") in line 32 and insert ("contravenes subsection (2) above").
The noble Lord said: This amendment will provide that any person who fails to give the local authority notice of intention to begin a demolition or who begins one before the local authority have served a notice containing conditions—or before expiry of the "relevant period", as defined, if no such conditions are given—shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of up to £500.
As the clause is presently drafted, the £500 penalty can only be imposed where the person carrying out the demolition has failed to notify the local authority of his intention to demolish. It does not cover the situation

1193
where, even though such notification may have been given, demolition is begun before the local authority have served a notice containing conditions—or before the "relevant period", as defined, has expired if no such notice is served. It is considered important that the local authority should have redress in such cases and the amendment is thus designed to remedy that defect. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 93:
Page 28, line 44, leave out ("the Public Health Act 1961") and insert ("this Act").
The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 94:
Page 29, line 1, after ("them") insert ("to have begun or").
The noble Lord said: The amendment will enable the local authority to serve a notice containing conditions on any person who appears to them to have begun a demolition to which Section 29 of the Public Health Act 1961 applies. As presently drafted, the clause allows the local authority to serve a notice containing conditions only on a person who appears to be intending to begin a demolition and not on a person who has already begun such a demolition. This amendment corrects that position by authorising a local authority to serve a notice in both circumstances. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Foot Lord Foot moved Amendment No. 94ZA:
Page 29, line 3, at end insert—
("( ) A local authority which becomes aware of circumstances entitling it to serve a notice under subsection (1) of this section shall consult with the relevant gas and electricity undertakers and, unless the authority is satisfied as a result of such consultation that there is no supply of gas or electricity to, in, under or through the building, shall serve such a notice and shall include in it a requirement such as is specified in paragraph (h) of section 29B(1) of this Act").
The noble Lord said: I should like to speak, with the leave of the Committee, not only to this amendment but to the four amendments which follow on it, B, C, D and E. I should like also to apologise to the Government for having put down this amendment so late in the day. The same applies to the amendment which I shall be moving a little later. The matter is probably so simple that the Government will not be embarrassed in any way by the short notice which they have had.
These amendments in my name are being put forward by me on behalf of the electricity and gas industries. It may be sufficient to say that a great deal of thought has been given to these amendments by those responsible for those industries. Clause 27 of the Bill is concerned with certain precautions which should be taken on the demolition of buildings. It is designed to strengthen and to amend Section 29 of the Public Health Act 1961. That intention is wholly welcome to those on whose behalf I speak. Their only feeling in the matter is that it does not really go quite far enough, certainly so far as electricity and gas are concerned.
This series of amendments is designed, first, to try to avert any unwitting or unintended damage to gas or
1194
electric installations in the course of demolition works and, secondly—and more importantly perhaps—to strengthen the provisions for public safety. I do not think it is necessary for me to emphasise to the Committee the considerable dangers which can arise with regard to electric and gas installations when buildings are being demolished. To make the point, I need to quote two short passages from a memorandum I have received from the British Gas Corporation. The first is:
"From time to time gas engineers have been called to sites where demolition works are in progress and have found the service pipe to be live with gas escaping from the severed service pipe. The attendant danger to demolition contractors' operatives on site and also to adjacent property is the risk of ignition or explosion of the escaping gas. Furthermore, if the live surface pipe is hooked out by a digger, serious consequences can flow from a possible fracture of the gas main to which the service pipe is connected".
The second quotation includes what I regard as two startling statistics:
"In the London distribution area of South Eastern Gas, which comprises six districts each with approximately 150,000 customers, in the period since 1st January of this year"—
I emphasise that, since January of this year—
"in the Southwark district, there have been some 16 separate gas escape incidents involving demolition works; and in the Lambeth district during the same period there were 14 such incidents of gas escapes involving demolition works, and in each case no prior notification of the intended demolition works had been received".
I need not argue the seriousness of the matter, Clause 27 as drafted empowers a local authority to serve a notice on anyone intending to demolish certain types of buildings. That notice may impose on that person—whom perhaps I may call "the contractor" any of the requirements set out in the new Clause 29B; and among the requirements in that new provision is paragraph (h) which provides that a notice under Clause 29A(1) may require the person on whom it is served—that is, the contractor—to make arrangements with the relevant statutory undertakers for the disconnection of the supply of gas, electricity and water to the building.
The defect, if that is the right word, in that procedure, as we see it, is that the authority's power to include that requirement—the requirement of communicating to and making arrangements with the statutory under takers—is purely discretionary. Indeed, it is not obligatory on the local authority to serve a notice at all, and in that sense there could be an occasion when no notice of that requirement would be served on the contractor. The second defect, as we see it, of the clause as it stands, is that the electricity or gas board concerned will be put on notice of the demolition only if the authority has included in its notice the requirement under paragraph (h); or if, by chance, under another clause of the Bill, the statutory undertaker happens to be the owner or occupier of an adjoining building.
I think it would be sufficient, to explain what this series of amendments propose, if I read Amendment No. 94ZA:
"A local authority which becomes aware of circumstances entitling it to serve a notice under subsection (1) of this section shall consult"—
that is, where the local authority becomes aware that some demolition work will take place—

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"with the relevant gas and electricity undertakers and, unless the authority is satisfied as a result of such consultation that there is no supply of gas or electricity to, in, under or through the building, shall serve such a notice and shall include in it a requirement such as is specified in paragraph (h) of section 29B(1) of this Act".
That is designed to ensure that whenever the local authority is contemplating the issue of a notice to a contractor or to any other person, it shall consult—be under an obligation to consult—with the gas and electricity undertakers to make sure just what the situation is. I imagine that almost all responsible local authorities would be inclined to consult with the electricity and gas undertakers in any event. If so, then, if the amendment were carried, making it mandatory would not impose any additional burden on local authorities, because it is probably what they would do in any event. It would only seal up a possible loophole and make it obligatory and mandatory on every local authority in those circumstances always to consider and consult the statutory undertakers.
Amendment No. 94ZB is designed to strengthen paragraph (h), to which I have referred. As drafted, paragraph (h) requires the contractor to make arrangements with the statutory undertakers for the disconnection of the supply—I underline the word "supply"—of gas, electricity and water to the building. The amendment relates to making safe, additionally, any electric apparatus in or under the building, not merely the electrical or gas apparatus which supplies electricity or gas to the building. The object of that amendment will be clear without further explanation from me.
The remaining three amendments to which I am speaking relate to subsection (3) of the new Clause 29B. Subsection (2) of that new clause empowers a contractor, or the authority in certain circumstances, to break open a street in connection with a demolition. Subsection (3) as at present drafted provides that, in so breaking open a street, the contractor is not exempt from certain obligations under the Water Act 1945. The amendments, to put the matter briefly, simply provide that the contractor shall not be exempt from certain similar obligations in respect of electricity and gas. I hope that is sufficient explanation of this group of five amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Bellwin: I, too, propose to speak to the group of five amendments. We feel that in practice it is unnecessary to require a local authority to consult statutory undertakers. Our concern is that consultation could prove inflexible and onerous, not to say time consuming. For example, in a great many cases a local authority will be aware, without needing to consult, that the services of statutory undertakers are likely to be affected, and indeed as the noble Lord, Lord Foot, himself very fairly said, it is reasonable to suppose that in such circumstances the authority will properly exericse its discretion under paragraph (h) of Clause 29B(1) and serve a notice containing the appropriate condition. Therefore it would perhaps be a rather costly waste of the time of both the local authority and the statutory undertaker to require consultation, and in some circumstances it could unnecessarily delay the start of demolition works. Similarly, there might be cases where it was patently
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obvious that no such services could be affected and there it would be pointless to require consultation.
However, in cases where the local authority is in doubt about whether gas or electricity services might be affected, there is nothing to stop the authority seeking the advice of the relevant undertakers. Alternatively, the authority has the power simply to go ahead and impose a requirement for the demolisher to make arrangements with the statutory undertakers in any event.
I should have thought that it is more satisfactory to leave the matter to the discretion of local authorities and to rely on them to exercise their powers responsibly, rather than to impose an inflexible and, as I say, a time-consuming requirement, which could place unnecessary burdens on all the parties concerned.
With regard to Amendment No. 94ZB, my observations are very similar, since surely it is reasonable to expect that an undertaker, on making arrangements, could ensure that a demolisher left electricity lines and apparatus, for example, electrically dead as part of any other arrangements in relation to the disconnection of the supply.
Having said that, I should add that we have thought carefully about the point that the noble Lord raises. For the reasons that I have just given, we think that what he proposes is not entirely necessary. Nevertheless, he has raised one or two points which ought to be thought about a little further, and we are considering possibly tabling on Report an amendment which would require demolishers in all cases to inform statutory undertakers of a proposed demolition. I think that that would go a long way towards meeting what the noble Lord, Lord Foot, is seeking. In regard to those amendments and the others to which he has referred, I would add that we are prepared to consider the matter with a view to putting down a suitable Government amendment on Report. Perhaps in the light of that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Foot: I never like to look a gift horse in the mouth, and certainly I should be ready to withdraw the amendment at this stage, but I hope that I am not precluded from making one or two observations on the noble Lord's arguments. He said, if there were a rigid system whereby on every occasion when a demolition is contemplated, the local authority must consult the undertakers as to whether there are any electric, gas, or water installations involved, that would impose a heavy burden upon the authority. I am afraid that I cannot at all understand that view. The amendment does not specify the way in which the consultations must take place. If it is a mandatory requirement that in every case where a demolition notice is contemplated, automatically the local authority must communicate with the statutory undertakers, the authority could do that perfectly well by lifting up the telephone if it chose.
The great advantage of making consultation mandatory is that it would avoid the exceptional case—and I realise it to be exceptional—where for some reason or another (perhaps because somebody has not thought of it) an inquiry is not made and then perhaps a fatal accident ensues. I should have thought that if one weighed one argument against the other there is an overwhelming case for making consultation mandatory

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and that in practice it would not impose any serious obligation on the local authority. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 94ZB, 94ZC, 94ZD and 94ZE not moved.]
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 28 [Protection of damaged buildings]:
5.46 p.m.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 94ZF:
Page 32, line 45, at end insert—
("(2A) In this section and sections [Buildings on operational land of British Railways Board and certain statutory undertakers] and [Applications to court in respect of expenses of works] "building" includes structure.
(2B) Subject to subsection (2C) below, in this section, the sections mentioned in subsection (2A) above and section [Appeals against notices] below "local authority" means a district council, a London borough council and the Common Council of the City of London.
(2C) This section and the other sections mentioned in subsection (213) above shall have effect, in relation to a building in respect of which—

(a) an undertaking that it shall not be used for human habitation is in force by virtue of section 16(4) of the Housing Act 1957 or paragraph 5 of Schedule 24 to the Housing Act 1980; or

(b) a closing order is in force by virtue of section 17, 26 or 35 of the Housing Act 1957, section 26 of the Housing Act 1961 or paragraph 6 of Schedule 24 to the Housing Act 1980,

and which is situated in an area which in pursuance of section 40 of the Housing Act 1969 or section 49 of the Housing Act 1974 is for the time being declared by the Greater London Council to be a general improvement area or a housing action area, as if for the words "the local authority", in each place where they occur, there were substituted the words "the Greater London Council".").
The noble Lord said: With this amendment I should also like to refer to Amendment No. 95ZA. These are simply drafting amendments which deal with the definitions of the local authorities which are to be empowered to execute works under the clause. In relation to the Greater London Council, that council's powers are confined as at present to certain buildings (for example, in relation to which a closing order has been made) in areas declared by the council to be housing action areas or general improvement areas. I beg to move.
Baroness David: May I ask whether the Minister really was speaking to Amendment No. 94ZF?
Lord Bellwin: I was speaking to Amendments Nos. 94ZF and 95ZA.
Baroness David: Amendment No. 94ZF refers to,
"Buildings on operational land of British Railways Board—"
Lord Bellwin: It is Amendment No. 94ZF; the noble Baroness is quite right.
Baroness David: I should like to ask the Minister a few questions. Amendment No. 94ZF is a new amendment, which is contained in the third Marshalled List, but was not in the earlier Marshalled Lists, as was the case with three other amendments, Nos. 94A,
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95B and 95C. They were presented to us only this morning, and I should like to make a slight protest, since it is rather difficult to cope with new amendments within the short space of time between collecting the Marshalled List rather late this morning and talking about the amendments this afternoon. Since this is the third Committee day on the Bill it seems to me rather hard to include these amendments at this late stage. It is very difficult for us to master them and to find out what they are all about.
I should like to ask one or two questions. Amendment No. 94ZF states that "building' includes structure". Several amendments relate to British Railways' land and statutory undertakers' land. Amendment No. 95A proposes a new clause, headed:
"Buildings on operational land of British Railways Board and certain statutory undertakers",
which states:
"This Section applies to operational land—".
Then in subsection (7) of the new clause in Amendment No. 95A there is the most extraordinary definition of "operational land". The first part of it is comprehensible to me, but then it goes on to say:
"not being land which, in rsepect of its nature and situation, is comparable rather with land in general than with land which is used, or in which interests are held, for the purpose of carrying on such undertakings".
I do not know whether perhaps the Government can try to get the language a little clearer. They were in a hurry, too, I suppose; but it seems to me that the ordinary person having to cope with this provision will have a great deal of difficulty.
I should also like to draw attention to subsection (2C) of Amendment No. 94ZF, which I really do not understand, and I should be very glad to have an explanation from the Minister. It appears that very wide powers are being offered to the local authorities. I realise they can choose them, that they do not have to take them on; but why cannot British Railways and the statutory undertakers do their own work? I should also like to ask, who bears the costs? The Minister has not spoken already to Amendment No. 95C, so perhaps I had better keep my questions about that until later.
Lord Bellwin: I am glad the noble Baroness keeps those questions until a little later. Might I say that I entirely accept her point about the shortage of time in which to deal with amendments. I would also hope that she would accept from me that there have been times when I have sat on this Bench and been given manuscript amendments which were handed in five minutes previously and upon which one has been expected to make observations and comments. I am sure she will have the same sympathy with me as I have with her on this point.
Baroness David: If I could make one comment on that, it is one thing for the Government with civil servants behind them and another for us without them.
Lord Bellwin: I sometimes wonder about that. I gave an illustration recently, did I not?, in your Lordships' House of the kind of briefing one can get from time to time. Some may consider it helpful; some may not. Perhaps no more for the moment—

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and "Yes, Minister", indeed.
Quite clearly, on the drafting of these definitions I shall have to come back to the noble Baroness. I am sorry I cannot give a detailed breakdown of them at the moment. As she fairly says, she has difficulty in coping with these interpretations. I could easily give my own interpretations of these things as they seem to me, but I think it would be right and proper if I were to give them to her in a written form. Then it can be brought back again should anyone have concern about any particular aspects of it. Perhaps the noble Baroness might agree that, with that, we might move on. I take her point entirely, and will try to get that for her.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 94A:
Page 33, line 1, leave out from ("below,") to end of line 5 and insert ("before undertaking any works under subsection (2) above, other than works on land to which section [Buildings on operational land of British Railways Board and certain statutory undertakers] below applies a local authority shall serve a notice that they propose to undertake works under this section in connection with the building on each owner or occupier of the building.
(3A) A notice under subsection (3) above shall specify the works in connection with the building which the local authority propose to undertake.").
The noble Lord said: With Amendment No. 94A go Nos. 94B, 94C and 94D. These really are simply drafting amendments, and I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendments Nos. 94B, 94C and 94D:
Page 33, line 6, leave out ("as is referred to in subsection (3) above").
line 8, leave out ("carry out the proposed") and insert ("undertake").
line 14, at end insert—
("(4A) A local authority shall not undertake works specified in a notice under subsection (3) above before the expiry of the period of 48 hours from the service of the notice.").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendments Nos. 94B, 94C and 94D en bloc.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 94E:
Page 33, line 14, at end insert—
("(4B) For the purpose of exercising the power conferred on a local authority by this section any person duly authorised in writing by the authority may enter—

(a) the building in connection with which works are to be undertaken;

(b) any land that appears to the local authority to be appurtenant to the building; and

(c) any other land if—

(i) it appears to the local authority to be unoccupied; and

(ii) it would be impossible to undertake the works without entering it.").

The noble Lord said: This amendment will confer on local authorities power to enter buildings, and particularly land, to undertake works under the clause. It is thought proper that that power should not extend to occupied land which is not appurtenant to the building in question. It is considered that the power
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is essential for the clause to be effective. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
5.55 p.m.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal Baroness Fisher of Rednal moved Amendment No. 95:
Page 33, line 21, leave out subsection (6).
The noble Baroness said: As it is written, the clause gives power to local authorities to carry out works to a building which is not effectively secured or is likely to become a danger to public health, and it spells out quite clearly that local authorities can recover the cost of carrying out works except where a closing order is in force under the Housing Acts or an undertaking has been given that the house will not be used for human habitation. In our view local authorities should also be able to recover their costs in closing order and undertaking cases.
We feel quite strongly that closing orders are made or undertakings given in situations where, for whatever reasons, owners have allowed their properties to deteriorate to such an extent that they are unfit for human habitation; and closing orders are most commonly made on tenanted property, in which case the local authority has a duty to rehouse the occupier within the provisions of the Land Compensation Act. In the majority of cases of this type they also make a home loss and a disturbance payment to the tenant; rehousing them becomes the responsibility of the local authority, and that rehousine, quite obviously, is another financial burden that the ratepayer has to undertake. Therefore, a closing order is not action which a local authority takes lightly.
I think it is important to remind your Lordships that case law shows quite clearly that unfit properties have to be dealt with by local authorities. Unfit properties are designated as unfit for human habitation, and therefore local authorities are under a duty to take action with regard to them. While that action might not always result in a closing order, if it does they come under the statutory provisions of the Housing Act 1957.
I know that on Second Reading Lord Bellwin was not very encouraging to the thoughts that we had on this amendment, and I remind him that he said to us then that he was not sympathetic to our argument because it was thought that such a power would impose an unfair burden on owners who had already lost the use of such buildings by virtue of the order or the undertaking. I do not agree with the point of view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, on behalf of the Government, because the owner does not always lose the use of the building. He has one, two or perhaps three alternatives that he can use in these circumstances. The house can be used for commercial or other non-residential purposes. The owner can apply for a grant—and the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, will know more about all the grants that are available than I do, but they are statutory under the Housing Act 1980.
Alternatively, after the tenant has been rehoused by the local authority the owner may repair the house, then secure the lifting of the order and sell it with vacant possession. There is clear evidence that in the London area this is a considerable loophole and

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that considerable profits accrue from this loophole. Therefore, what we would say is that overall closing orders and undertakings involve the local authorities in considerable expense; and involving local authorities in considerable expense means that the ratepayers have to pay. Therefore, it seems reasonable to me and to my noble friends that, in circumstances where an owner has allowed his property to deteriorate to the extent that a closing order is necessary, and where the building is also a danger to public health within the meaning of Clause 28, then the local authority should be entitled to recover its costs of removing that danger. I beg to move.
Lord Bellwin: It was because the local authorities could not recover their expenses in the kind of cases to which the noble Baroness referred that they were given power to take speedy action in Housing Act cases with no right of appeal for the owner. The noble Baroness will no doubt be pleased to hear me say that we are proposing that there be a Government amendment to give owners a right of appeal against an authority's notice of proposed works or against a demand for costs where no notice is given. This will remove any objections on those grounds to local authorities being able to recover their costs. Consequently the Government are content that subsection (6) be omitted from the Bill, and we accept the amendment.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: I am overwhelmed. I appreciate the observations which the noble Lord made. In the Second Reading debate he was not so helpful. Perhaps in his re-reading of the debate I and my noble friends convinced him. I thank the noble Lord.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 95ZA:
Page 33, line 35, leave out subsections (8) and (9).
The noble Lord said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
6.3 p.m.
Lord Foot Lord Foot moved Amendment No. 95ZB:
Page 35, line 45, at end insert—
("(10) When a local authority give notice under subsection (3) above they shall at the same time send to the relevant gas and electricity undertakers a copy of the notice and, NN here subsection (4) above applies, the local authority shall give to the relevant gas and electricity undertakers such notice as is reasonable in the circumstances of the case.
(11) Nothing in this section shall prejudice the rights of the relevant gas and electricity undertakers to enter upon a building in exercise of their statutory powers in that behalf but, without prejudice to any other obligation or liability arising in respect of any entry in the exercise of statutory powers, the said undertakers in exercising their powers of entry in respect of any unoccupied building shall ensure that it is not left less secure against unauthorised entry by reason of the exercise of those powers.").
The noble Lord said: This clause is concerned with the securing of unoccupied premises against entry and preventing them from becoming a danger to the public and to public health. The clause as drafted enables a local authority to undertake works with these objects in
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mind and the authority, as the clause stands, is under no obligation, before they set about shutting up premises in this way and making them secure, to consult with the gas and electricity undertakers before the premises are made secure. We think that there is a real risk in the isolated case if the undertakers are not consulted that a building might be bricked up or closed up while still containing live wires or other dangerous equipment, and it is possible that vandals or children, in spite of the efforts to secure the premises, might find their way on to the property to their great danger.
All that this amendment seeks to do is to require that the local authority, when they give a notice of intention to secure premises in this way, shall at the same time send to the relevant gas and electricity undertakers a copy of the notice; and where subsection (4) applies—and that is the case where the authority are acting in an emergency and must do the job right away—the local authority shall give to the relevant gas and electricity undertakers such notice as is reasonable in the circumstances of the case. I do not think I need trouble reading the other new subsection here. The effect of it generally is that if the undertakers go into premises to see the state of them and exercise their rights to enter the building under their statutory powers, they will, when they come out, leave the premises as secure as they found them before they went in. I beg to move.
Lord Bellwin: The Government cannot accept this amendment. It is thought that the requirement for local authorities to copy to the gas and electricity undertakers (but not, I notice, to the undertakers concerned with the supply of water) any notice they give under the clause would impose an unnecessary burden on local government at the present time. The local authority can be expected to consult on the matter if that was thought to be necessary. We do not think there is a need for a provision to save undertakers' rights to enter buildings in exercise of their statutory powers. The view taken is that nothing which a local authority does under the clause can prejudice the exercise of statutory powers conferred on statutory undertakers to enter buildings for the purpose of carrying out work to their apparatus.
Also, the proposed requirement on undertakers to ensure that buildings are not left less secure by reason of the exercise by the undertakers of their powers of entry would seem to extend beyond the scope of this Bill. Having said that, I wonder if the noble Lord, Lord Foot, will take the point that the powers in the Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 seem to deal with the matter. That may be something he would want to look at. We cannot accept the amendment.
Lord Foot: I will look at that. I am completely ignorant of the terms of the Act which the noble Lord quoted. I am glad that I am not moving a third amendment because the noble Lord becomes less forthcoming the longer we go on. I am grateful for the answer. On this occasion, I shall not do anything other than to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 28, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill.
Baroness David: Some authorities seem to be worried that when a notice is served on somebody asking them to carry out works and they do not do it, there is no penalty that can be imposed in the Bill for that. Will the noble Lord comment on that so that we may think whether we might want to put down an amendment on Report?
Lord Bellwin: The question of a penalty or otherwise is one thing. The Government feel that the reason why (apart from the earlier reasons) we did not want to accept the noble Lord's amendment was because there were the powers in the Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 which we think cover the point. There should be no problem. One would want to look into that more carefully. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Foot, and the noble Baroness will do so.
Baroness David: If the person on whom the notice is served could do the work but simply refuses to do so, should there not be a sanction against that?
Lord Bellwin: I am not aware of any specific requirement in that way. One can have a look at it. That I shall gladly do.
Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 95A:
After Clause 28, insert the following new clause:
("Buildings on operational land of British Railways Board and certain statutory undertakers
.—(1) This section applies to operational land—

(a) of the British Railways Board (in this section referred to as "the Board"); or

(b) of persons (in this section referred to as "the statutory undertakers") authorised by any enactment to carry on an undertaking for the generation or supply of electricity or the supply of gas or water.

(2) Subject to subsection (4) below, before undertaking any works under section 28(2) above on land to which this section applies a local authority shall serve notice that they propose to undertake works under that section in connection with the building—

(a) on the Board, if the works which they propose to undertake will be undertaken on operational and of the Board; and

(b) in any other case, on the statutory undertakers on whose operational land the works will be undertaken.

(3) A notice under subsection (2) above shall specify the works which the local authority propose to undertake.
(4) A local authority need not give any such notice where they consider that it is necessary to undertake works immediately in order to secure a building against unauthorised entry or to prevent it from becoming a danger to public health.
(5) A local authority shall not undertake works specified in a notice under subsection (2) above before the expiry of the period of 48 hours from the service of the notice on the Board or the statutory undertakers.
(6) In carrying out any works under section 28(2) above on land to which this section applies a local authority shall comply with any reasonable requirement which the Board or, as the case may be, the statutory undertakers may impose for the protection or safety of their undertaking.
(7) In this section "operational land" means, in relation to the Board or the statutory undertakers—

(a) land which is used for the purpose of carrying on their undertaking; and

(b) land in which an interest is held for that purpose, not being land which, in respect of its nature and situation, is
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comparable rather with land in general than with land which is used, or in which interests are held, for the purpose of carrying on such undertakings.").

The noble Lord said: This new clause is designed to meet a request of the British Railways Board. It sets out a procedure for local authorities to follow before they execute works under Clause 28 (Protection of damaged buildings) of the Bill in relation to buildings that happen to stand on operational land of the British Railways Board and statutory undertakers. I beg to move.
Viscount Colville of Culross: If I may follow the point made by the noble Baroness about the definition in subsection (7), in requesting and obtaining this, the board and the statutory undertakers have obtained rather a good deal. If the land is not "operational land", then presumably my noble friend will confirm that the local authority would take action under Clause 28, as we have just been discussing it. There is no reason why any question of operational land should come in. If, however, it is operational land, then on the face of the clause the British Railways Board and the statutory undertakers have a perfectly reasonable concession in subsection (6) of this new clause in that they can ask the local authority, in carrying out the works, to do anything necessary to protect the safety of the undertaking.
If the board or statutory undertaking satisfactorily succeeds in persuading the local authority that the land is "operational land," and that there is a building on it that the local authority says is not effectively secured or is likely to become a danger to public health, then the local authority can go ahead subject to notice and to taking the necessary steps to protect the undertaking, but who pays? If it was not "operational land" under Clause 28(5) the local authority would be able to recover the expenses from the owner. If the board or the statutory undertaker successfully argues that the building is on operational land, then the poor old local authority cannot reclaim anything. So the board, merely by going through the argument that this is land—and therefore the definition becomes of great importance—which can be described as "operational" can get out of paying for something which everybody else in the country will have to pay for. What possible justification can there be for that?
This is a straight subsidy by the local authority for work done on buildings which belong to the Railways Board or statutory undertakings which ought to know better than to allow them to get into this state. Then the local authority has to deal with it, foot the bill and pay for any extra precautions to protect the undertaking. Is that really what the board have requested and the Government have intended to give them? If so, they have done jolly well.
Lord Bellwin: Clearly one will want to consider carefully what my noble friend says. I had longer speaking notes but felt it seemed fairly straightforward. Having listened to my noble friend, it sounds anything but straightforward. It would be only proper that I should say that we ought to look at this amendment again in the light of what has been said. The object of the whole exercise is to make it a better way to

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operate. If it should be that the points raised by my noble friend mean that difficulties will be caused, then we must reconsider this aspect. I will not press this amendment. I will gladly withdraw the amendment.
Baroness David: I am very pleased that the Minister has taken this line. We need some more explanation, for I was also going to ask: "Who pays?". It seems a great burden. I was delighted that the noble Viscount spoke first. It seems that quite a burden is being put on local authorities, and I am very pleased that the Minister is going to withdraw this amendment for the time being.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 95B:
After Clause 28, insert the following new clause:
("Appeals against notices.
—(1) A person on whom a notice is served under section 28 or [Buildings on operational land of British Railways Roard and certain statutory undertakers] above may appeal against the notice to the county court.
(2) No such appeal may be brought after the expiry of the period of 21 days from the date on which the notice was served.
(3) The ground of any such appeal may be—

(a) that the works specified in the notice were not authorised by section 28 above; or

(b) that they were unnecessary; or

(c) that it was otherwise unreasonable for the local authority to undertake them.

(4) If such an appeal is brought, the local authority

(a) shall cease from any works specified in the notice which they have commenced; and

(b) shall not commence any further works so specified except as provided by section (7) below.

(5) The court may make an order confirming or quashing the notice or varying it in such manner as it thinks fit.
(6) An order under subsection (5) above may make such provision as to the recovery of expenses arising in connection with the works specified in the notice as the court thinks fit.
(7) Upon the confirmation or variation of a notice the local authority may commence or recommence the works authorised by the notice as originally served or, as the case may be, as varied by the order of the court.").
The noble Lord said: I spoke to this amendment previously. I beg to move.
Viscount Colville of Culross: With respect, a manuscript amendment is required to leave out:
"or buildings on operational land of British Railways Board and certain statutory undertakers",
because that clause is not at the moment in the Bill.
Lord Bellwin: In view of what I have said, my noble friend is right—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 95C:
After Clause 28, insert the following new clause:
("Applications to court in respect of expenses of works.
(1) If a local authority seek to recover expenses incurred in undertaking works under section 28(2) above in connection with a building—

(a) where the building is on land to which section [Buildings on operational land of British Railways Board and certain statutory undertakers] above applies, from the Board or the statutory undertakers; or

(b) in any other case, from an occupier of the building; and

(c) they did not serve notice of their proposal to undertake the works under section 28(3) or [Buildings on operational
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land of British Railways Board and certain statutory undertakers] (2) above on the Board or, as the case may be, the statutory undertakers or that occupier,

the person from whom they seek to recover the expenses may apply to the county court for a declaration—

(i) that the works undertaken in connection with the budding were unnecessary; or

(ii) that it was otherwise unreasonable for the local authority to undertake them.

(2) No such application may be made after the expiry of the period of 21 days from the date on which the local authority first requested payment of the expenses.
(3) If the court makes a declaration under subsection (1) above, it may make such order as it thinks fit in respect of the payment of the expenses incurred in connection with the works.").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move this amendment formally.
Viscount Colville of Culross: I was not making the point that the whole of the clause ought to be deleted. It may well be in every other respect it stands perfectly well on its own rights. All I was saying was that as Clause 95A has not been moved and is not in the Bill, it is improper to put in another new clause which has a reference to that clause. Amendment No. 95C has references to other clauses—for instance, Clause 28(3)—to which we have no objection and that has already been passed. There is nothing wrong with that so long as—if my noble friend wishes to pursue it—he moves manuscript amendments to leave out the reference to the clause that he has not moved. It means two manuscript amendments in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) and paragraph (c) of subsection (1).
Lord Bellwin: I should prefer to reconsider these amendments and bring them all back together. That will be the proper way to deal with them. I have not the slightest doubt that what my noble friend says is technically correct. It will be as well, if we are looking at the other points, to look also at this.
Baroness David: The county court is referred to in Amendments Nos. 95B and No. 95C. In the main part of the clause—in subsection (7) page 33—it is the magistrates' court to which the person has to go to recover expenses. I wonder why it is the magistrates' court in one case and the county court in the other two cases.
Lord Bellwin: I do not know whether the noble Baroness is a magistrate. I am a magistrate—as I know many other noble Lords are—and normally it is a question of level. I would have thought that was the reason why there is one in one case and the other in the other. As the whole matter is being taken away we shall look at that. When we bring it back I shall make an observation on that to the noble Baroness.
Amendment, by leave, withdraw.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Drumalbyn): May I make a correction? There appears to be a mistake on the Marshalled List: I call on Lord Sandford, not Baroness Sandford!
6.20 p.m.
Lord Sandford Lord Sandford moved Amendment No. 96:
After Clause 28, insert the following new clause:
("Assistance to Industry.
PART
LOCAL AUTHORITY ASSISTANCE TO INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE
.—(1) A local authority may, subject to the provisions of this section, incur expenditure which in their opinion is necessary for the purpose of providing support and undertaking measures for the economic development of their areas including the provision of finance for small firms carrying on or intending to carry on industrial undertakings, but a local authority shall not, by virtue of this subsection, incur any expenditure for a purpose for which they are, either unconditionally or subject to any limitation or to the satisfaction of any condition, authorised or required to make any payment by or by virtue of any other enactment.
(2) It is hereby declared that the power of a local authority to incur expenditure under subsection (1) above includes power to do so by contributing towards the defraying of expenditure by another local authority in or in connection with the exercise of that other authority's functions.
(3) The expenditure of a local authority under this section in any financial year shall not exceed the product of a rate of 2p in the pound for their area for that year or if some other higher amount is fixed by an order made by the Secretary of State shall not exceed the product of a rate of that amount in the pound for their area for that year.
(4) A statutory instrument containing an order under subsection (3) above may apply to all local authorities or may make different provision in relation to local authorities of different descriptions.
(5) Any such instrument shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
(6) The accounts of a local authority by whom expenditure is incurred under this section shall include a separate account of that expenditure, and section 228(4), (6) and (7) of the Local Government Act 1972, shall have effect as if any reference to the abstract of the accounts of the local authority included a reference to any such separate account as aforesaid.
(7) The product of a rate of 2p or any other amount in the pound for any area shall be computed for the purposes of this section by reference to the product of a rate of 1p in the pound for that area as determined for those purposes in accordance with rules made under section 113(1)(c) of the General Rate Act 1967.
(8) The power conferred by this section on local authorities shall be in addition to that conferred on them by section 137(1) of the Local Government Act 1972 ('power of local authorities to incur expenditure for certain purposes not authorised by any other enactment); and accordingly that section shall have effect as if this section had not been enacted.
(9) In this section, unless the context otherwise requires—"expenditure" shall not include any part thereof as may be defrayed by grant or other contribution; "industrial" has the same meaning as the Industry Act 1975; "local authority" means a county council, a district council, the Greater London Council, a London borough or the Common Council of the City of London; "small firm" means a person or body of persons (whether corporate or incorporate) employing not more than 50 persons.").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 96 and to forgive the Public Bill Office and Her Majesty's Stationery Office for any ill intent they may have had. I think what has happened is that all that talk about sex shops at the beginning of the Bill put them off their stroke! I should like to start my remarks by welcoming the Government's consultation paper, which we will all have received, which has come out since I tabled my amendment and since the Second Reading of the Bill. I have in my hands an extensive critique of the consultation paper, a lucid exposition of my amendment, clause by clause, and quite a few points on which I should like to stress to the Government the importance of legislating in this Bill. I also would like to suggest one or two changes to what is
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recommended in the consultation paper. However, a little bird has told me that my noble friend on the Front Bench has some good news for us over this theme of local authorities' assistance to industry and commerce, and therefore I shall abbreviate those remarks and listen eagerly to what my noble friend has to say.
The consultation paper is particularly welcome, not least because it agrees at so many points with the terms of my own amendment, and that at least shows that two great minds are thinking like! I shall briefly go through my amendment. Subsection (1) contains what the Government say in their consultation paper is desired in this area; namely, a simple, broad, wide-ranging power for local authorities covering this whole field. The second part of subsection (1) seeks to prevent overlap and confusion between this new power and other existing powers. Subsection (2) provides for joint schemes between authorities and here my subsection (3) corresponds to paragraph 19 in the consultation paper; and there is a certain disagreement there between the size of the resources which should be made available to local authorities for this form of assistance. I will return to that in a moment.
Both my amendment and the consultation paper provide for some flexibility in this clause by way of an order made by the Secretary of State and that, I think, is highly desirable. Subsections (6) and (7) are technical clauses drawn from the existing Article 137, under which local authorities have power to do anything which is for the general benefit of their area.
Subsection (9) deals with a rather important point, which I will not go into at this stage, about net of grant and so on. The final part of subsection (9) defines the size of enterprises to which this clause refers. Here again, there is a small disagreement between myself and the Government. I have put "50" and they want to confine it to "25". That is a very short review, which if necessary I could elaborate upon, but I do not want to do that in present circumstances. The main point which I want, if possible, to secure before this Bill leaves us is that there is legislation in this Bill on this topic. The consultation paper raises our expectations on that point and I hope that my little bird is correct when it indicates that my noble friend may be able to give further assurances on that point.
The other matter on which I should like to spend a moment or two is the matter raised in paragraph 19 of the consultation paper and subsection (3) of my amendment; that is to say, the extent of the resources to be made available to local authorities—though not necessarily to be used—for the assistance they give in support of industry and commerce in their areas. The consultation paper prescribes the product of a halfpenny rate. This may be ample for the larger authorities such as Bristol and the metropolitan districts, but it is not really enough for the smaller local authorities that make up a large part of the membership of the ADC. I can understand the Government's reluctance to provide as much as two-pence for the larger authorities because in some cases that would be perhaps more than £1 million. I believe—and I hope that my noble friend will be able to give some assurance on this—that the Government, in turn, see the case for the smaller and more rural local authorities having a good deal more than would

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be provided for them if we worked to a figure of a halfpenny. It should not be beyond the wit of the Government to devise a formula that would meet the anxiety of the Government not to be too generous and the wish of the Association of District Councils to make proper provision for their smaller authorities. With that very brief introduction, I beg to move this amendment and will listen eagerly to what my noble friend has to say.
Lord Mottistone: I am advised in what I have to say by the CBI who, in principle, agree that some amendment of this sort is necessary; but there are certain aspects of it that they are unhappy about, and having heard about the "little bird" that my noble friend Lord Sandford has mentioned as to the fact that my noble friend on the Front Bench may have something to say about it, I think I should mention a few of the CBI's misgivings before he does so, in the hope that they will be reflected in any statement the Government have to make.
The quandary is demonstrated by the fact that we welcome co-operation between business and local authorities, but we do not want any excuse for an increase in business rates, for whatever reason. We support well-judged financial assistance for business, and especially for small businesses; but we are uncertain whether local authorities are really equipped to provide the necessary commercial judgment. As my noble friend Lord Sandford said, we believe there certainly ought to be different rules, quite apart from the freedom to use the rates, for small authorities as opposed to large ones. In general, we believe that the powers which are written into this amendment are very much wider than could be accepted by industry. The Government's consultative document, which is dated March, only came out this month. It calls for consultation, and we wonder whether the Government have been able to consult sufficiently widely to come to a decision as to what they should advise the House to accept as being the right balance within this amendment, or something similar to it. I hope those words of caution may in fact be reflected in what my noble friend has to say.
Lord Northfield: I do not join the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, in entirely welcoming this consultation paper. I was glad that a consultation paper of some kind was issued, but I thought that this one had escaped the eagle eye of the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, who is so familiar with local government, and so came out in rather a half-baked form, if I may say so. He must have let someone else in the department deal with it, instead of grabbing it himself before it leaked out.
The paper's difficulty is that, when it comes to its recommendations it is full of contradiction, if not schizophrenia. In paragraph 10, it uses resounding words:
"The Government agree with the Burns group's conclusion that local authorities also have a positive role to play in sustaining and fostering local economies in employment. How they can best do so will differ between one area and another within the constraints imposed by national economic and industrial policies. A local authority itself is the best judge of what is appropriate for its own local circumstances."
Those are rcsusunding words of support for local government initiative. Then it ends with a few paragraphs
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saying that it is all to be contained within a ½p rate. This kind of schizophrenia results from not considering where we are. What the Government are hound to is the present statement on regional policy, and the noble Lord is sinking with the regional policy flag flying, just when everybody else is jumping off the ship.
The simple fact about regional policy is that more and more people are now aware of its limitations and weaknesses. If one looks at regional policy, which depends on defining assisted areas and then providing large cash grants in order to attract footloose manufacturing industry into the area, one sees that it is becoming more and more insufficient in present circumstances. For a start, only some service employment is covered by regional assistance policy and we know today that, with the change in the British economy, service employment is of more and more importance in the regions. We know, secondly, that the great danger with assisted area policy has been that branch plants are established in some of these areas and then, when any bad times hit the country, those branch plants are closed down and the company retreats to its headquarters. So often there are no decision-making activities in those companies in the localities.
Thirdly, it is a responsive service, not with any conscious help, looking for what is suitable for a particular area and helping to draw it in. The regional policy begins to operate only when an industry or a company begins to look for a location and approaches the Department of industry. Whereas what we in-increasingly realise is that the various districts that are suffering from high levels of unemployment need more and more to build a service which attracts the industries, which goes for self-reliance and growth and which has some relationship to the skills and opportunities of the area, according to a kind of understanding that local authorities often have of what can succeed and what will be most viable in those areas. That does not mean twisting arms. It just means preparing the ground so that private enterprise can flourish.
Lastly, the great disadvantage with regional policy as it exists at the moment is that the real difficulties of the economy are not just in the assisted areas. I ask your Lordships to look at the West Midlands and at the districts all over the non-assisted areas, which now have higher levels of unemployment and a greater need of industry than whole districts inside the assisted areas. So we have now reached the situation where regional policy is to a considerable extent out of date and needs reinforcing by alternatives. I am not saying that the policy should be cancelled. I am saying that it is not good enough by itself.
The alternative to this, which is really in the noble Lord's amendment, is that local authorities should have a very modest power to carry out their duties. This all comes from the reorganisation of local government in the early 1970s, when new district councils of much greater size, with a much greater sense of duty about the extent to which they are in charge of the welfare and the economic livelihood of the areas which they represent, came into being.
The chairman of the District Councils Association, in a foreword to one of their own publications about

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industrial development, said:
"The creation of jobs locally to alleviate unemployment and bring prosperity to our cities, towns and villages is a first priority for most of us".
He was there talking about the district councils. So to shunt this off on to a ½p rate is rather derisory and ludicrous.
But in the end, and more important than that, there is no regional development agency in England—and I speak particularly about England—to help make up for the lack of direction and the lack of initiative in regional policy. So local authorities are increasingly left as the only bodies in England which are able to have that more purposeful look at their local unemployment and try to do what is best.
So we are back to the conflict between the 2p rate and the ½p rate. As the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, said, some of the figures in many publications are quite ludicrous; and, indeed, I have a Question down tomorrow about some of them. But Radnor would be able to spend less than £10,000. Oswestry, in my own county of Shropshire, with 13 per cent. unemployment, would have £13,000 to spend. Alnwick in Northumberland, which is one of those most suffering from unemployment of 15·2 per cent.—and I know it very well—has a very deserving and go-ahead district council. But a 1p rate would give them £14,000. We are getting nowhere.
Many of us have had a letter from Chesterfield, stating that the present 2p rate of £236,000 would he reduced to £59,000, although their present sum is almost entirely taken up by existing initiatives—industrial grant schemes, helping persons to start small businesses, the Chesterfield training centre which trains bricklayers, stonemasons and so on, and which is partly funded by the Manpower Services Commission, and the proposed business advice centre. In a place like Chesterfield, £250,000 is not a great deal of money to spend on making the seed-bed ready for as much private small industry as is possible.
I agree with what the noble Lord will probably say. We do not want local authorities to have so much money that they go in for wasteful competitive advertising all over Britain, and all over the world, in order to attract big industry. But the amendment would not allow that. A 2p rate would not allow local authorities to do anything like that.
Finally, under the Government's proposals it is even more disastrous than the noble Lord has, perhaps, realised for a number of districts. Some of these districts are rural, and certainly not inner urban, but look at what will happen. Under the Government's proposals, the inner urban areas would not only have the ½p rate; they would also stick to the 2p rate, giving them a 2½p rate. So the poor district councils, which have 20 per cent. unemployment, will find even greater competition from some of the big boys in the inner urban areas in advertising and recruiting all over the world. So is a final inconsistency in the Government's proposals.
If it is true that this kind of campaign—I think that is the second small debate we have already had in this House on these arrangements—is making the Government think again, I shall be delighted. But I want to register the fact that if this had been left to the noble
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Lord, Lord Bellwin, in the first place, I do not think we should have had this inconsistent and contradictory consultation paper.
6.39 p.m.
Baroness Stedman: I, too, should like to welcome the amendment. A little bird has been very busy twittering around, and I hoped that we might have had a song from the noble Lord opposite, which indicated whether those twitterings were on the right lines. But, obviously, that is not to come yet. I should like to follow the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, about the difficulty in getting any economic regeneration in the smaller districts, where they have only the p rate. I should like to refer to Corby, which is very near to my area. Unemployment there is at the rate of 21·4 per cent. and a ½p rate would bring them in just over £35,000. In East Lindsey, which is also very close to me, a ½p rate would produce only £58,600, yet they have an unemployment rate of 22·7 per cent. Fenland, which is adjoining my area, have written to me to say that they would be in an impossible situation, since the training centre which they are operating with Manpower Services Commission money would have to count against their 2p expenditure entitlement under the Local Government Act 1972. If they were limited to a halfpenny rate, they could not even support the training centre, let alone undertake any other industrial projects. The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, referred to Chesterfield. There they have an unemployment rate of 12·9 per cent. Something like £59,000 will go nowhere in an area like that.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, I come from a new town area. Most of us from new town areas have seen the provision made by the development corporations to attract industry into our areas and to provide unit workshops and land to help small businesses. But the life of the new town development corporations is now drawing to an end. As the new town development corporation fades out of existence, we shall want to see our own district councils able to take on the role of bringing about economic regeneration and job creation at the local level.
I accept that we have got the consultation paper and I hope that as a result of what is said today in your Lordships' Committee there will be some alterations to it. I believe that the Government completely fail to recognise how councils can help to act as local catalysts. They know and understand what are the needs of their areas far better than do civil servants. The district councils are, naturally, very concerned that they have to finance all their activities to help local firms, except for land, infrastructure and advance building, within today's very tight financial limits.
I believe that the central Government's task is to create a national and regional strategic framework so that they can help industry but that local authorities ought to be given a reasonably free hand to respond to their own local needs. There has been conjecture in some places over the past months that perhaps the Government ought to consider setting up an urban equivalent of CoSIRA, about whose workings the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, knows far more than I do. But that initiative has not been taken. Therefore, I hope that the Committee will support the noble Lord's amendment.
Lord Tordoff: May I from these Benches join in supporting the amendment which stands in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, though with some slight qualifications. I do not want to get into the debate which we had the other evening on the Un-starred Question put down by the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, but I hope that when considering this amendment the noble Lord the Minister will look again at some of the points which were made that evening.
There is a dilemma here. From what has already been said it is clear that a halfpenny rate is far too small for many district councils. Many of these places in rural areas have very high levels of unemployment. If the total number of people unemployed in those areas is not so high as it is in the inner cities, nevertheless, as a percentage of their citizenry, it is very high indeed. This weekend I had the pleasure of spending some time in Ilfracombe, North Devon, where the unemployment level is now, I believe, 28 per cent. In areas like that a halfpenny rate is clearly going to be of very little use.
What worries me about the amendment, to pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, are the words at the end of line 4:
"including the provision of finance for small firms carrying on or intending to carry on industrial undertakings".
I have some worries about what is meant by "the provision of finance". As I think I have said before to your Lordships, I am worried about local authorities getting into the business of venture capital. It is not their job. They do not have the skills to decide between those ventures which are likely to be successful and those which are not. It may have been true some time ago that the banks were reluctant to lend money to small ventures, but I believe that the evidence now is that the position has changed and that it is much more possible for ventures which are likely to be in any way successful to get money from various financial sources. As I have said before, what is needed is a certain amount of collateral to support small industries—or, in a very few cases, a few hundred pounds to get an individual man "off the ground". However, I am a little worried about the phrase "the provision of finance".
May I also take up the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, from the point of view of the CBI: that large industries do not wish to be saddled with an increased rate. I should have thought that this might he more an area in which large industry would be prepared to pay money into the rates than many others. It seems to me that large industries should be prepared—and in many cases they are prepared—in a variety of ways to support small industries, for their own good as well as for the good of the community as a whole. It is more an area where I should have thought they might be prepared to pay slightly higher rates than others. In general, therefore, I support what has been said this afternoon, and I look forward to somebody singing from the Front Bench.
Lord Mottistone: Before the noble Lord sits down, would not he agree that large companies are now paying such enormous business rates that anything extra is thoroughly undesirable?
Baroness David: I should like, very briefly, to say
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that we on these Benches support the amendment which stands in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sandford. I should also like to say that we agree with the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, about the consultation paper. We do not think quite so highly of it as does the noble Lord, Lord Sandford.
May I ask a question about paragraph 17 of the consultation paper. It says that in England and Wales the local authorities for districts designated under the IUAA would however continue to be able to make use of Section 137. It seems to me not to be quite clear whether that means that just the 2p can be raised by the designated district. To take Nottinghamshire as an example, Nottingham is a designated district council. Could Nottingham raise the 2p, or could the County of Nottinghamshire raise 2p in all its districts, or could the county raise a 2p rate just for Nottingham?
I should also like to ask the Minister whether he would dissociate himself from the remarks made by his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Industry at the Local Government Conservative Conference when he made it clear—so it is alleged—that the Government's proposals are intended to stop authorities like the GLC from pouring out thousands of pounds to their friends in the Marxist co-operatives.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I am somewha worried by the amendment, in particular because I happen to be a member of the GLC. At present, 2p means over £40 million. As I listened to other speakers describing the small amount which would be raised by 2p in their areas, I realised that we are facing quite different situations.
A noble Lord on the Liberal Benches mentioned that he did not believe that local authorities should be moving into venture capital, yet this is exactly what the GLC propose to do with their present £40 million plus. If this amendment were passed in its present form without any ceiling being attached to it, it could represent yet another £40 million plus. We are concerned—I am speaking for many members of the GLC when I say this—about the effect upon the ratepayers. In the case of, say, a shop like Selfridges, with rates payable per annum of over £1 million a year, 2p extra on top of that would be a very substantial amount. All businesses within the expensive areas of London are suffering badly at the moment. For enterprise capital to be provided to set up businesses in competition with many of the existing businesses in London could be harmful.
I would ask the Minister, if he is considering accepting the amendment, to consider placing a ceiling upon the amount which would be used by any authority, because we are not viewing this as an overall situation. We are seeing quite different situations in different parts of the country.
Viscount Colville of Culross: May I ask my noble friend two questions? As I understand my noble friend's amendment—and I appreciate that this may not be the definitive version, but nevertheless it enables one to discuss the matter—it seems to me that several noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have taken part in the debate may not have understood what the proposition is. My noble friend would help

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me greatly by explaining this quite clearly. First of all, we have the provision in subsection (8) which excludes the powers under this section for the purposes of Section 137. That means that, notwithstanding the powers to spend money under this section which will be a statutory provision, any local authority can still spend the full 2p rate on any project that it thinks fit, provided the project is not covered already by some other legislation. I believe that is the point which the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, was making.
There are in addition the inner urban area districts, which have the power already to use the money available to them under the Inner Urban Areas Act and, in addition, spend the 2p rate as if there was no Inner Urban Area Act passed, on exactly the same sort of project. Those local authorities already have the power to spend inner urban area money on this sort of thing and the 2p rate on it as well.
What is being suggested, as I understand it, in subsection (3) of this amendment is that all local authorities shall continue to be able to spend the 2p rate if they choose, in whole or in part, on giving assistance to industry and, in addition, they shall have the extra 2p rate which they are specifically entitled to spend on giving assistance to industry, whether or not any part of the "ordinary" 2p rate is going that in direction or on the provision of a training college or anything else. In other words, they will have a 4p rate; 2p of which will he completely at liberty and 2p of which goes to assisting industry. If the authority is an inner urban area authority, it will have the money provided under that Act as a third form of assisting industry. In those circumstances, is it not right, in view of the effect upon rates which has been mentioned by several noble Lords, to consider quite carefully this figure of 2p as a starting point? It would in effect be 4p in the hands of some local authorities if they wished to use it all for these purposes. Therefore, whether the halfpenny is right or not, will my noble friend tell me whether my analysis is correct or not, so that we can see what it is that we are talking about in total?
Secondly, there is the question of the provision of finance. I have had a number of dealings with local authorities in a professional capacity that I no longer hold, on the question of how they may provide finance to industry. One of the questions they always asked, was, could they guarantee bank loans? I have always told them, and perhaps my noble friend can confirm whether this is right or not, that under existing law they cannot do so. But the wording of subsection (1) of my noble friend's new clause must be such that it is at any rate arguable that they would be able to guarantee loans raised from the market for the purposes of setting up new industry.
This may or may not be a good thing, but I can see the most dreadful troubles coming if, having guaranteed a loan specifically under this new clause, with a limit to what it can spend under this new clause, the authority then has to pay hack the guarantee because the firm fails. What will happen to the rest of the authority's expenditure under this 2p rate and under the "general" 2p rate under Section 137? There may be a very large call in some years which will disrupt projects such as the college referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady
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Stedman. If these wider powers to underwrite private loans from the market are going to be built in, what safeguards are there going to be, so that other projects which are being financed out of the 2p rate, probably on a continuous basis, are not going to be prejudiced by the sudden failure of the firm which has been so guaranteed? If my noble friend can clarify those two points, it would certainly help matters very greatly.
6.55 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: As can be seen from the long discussion which has taken place—and which, I suspect, would have continued even longer were it not for the hour—this is a matter of considerable interest, and it is right that it should be so. As the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, said, this is not something new, something that is being raised all of a sudden. This has been going on for a long time. It has been brought to a head by the fact that in 1984, the powers which local authorities currently have will be coming to an end and therefore, something has to be done. The noble Lord was very kind in what he said about my own participation in the wording of the report; to the extent that I was not involved, he is quite right. But that would not lead me on to say that I did not think that the Burns Report, as it has come to be known, is other than a very helpful document. After all, it is what it says; no one has made the point sufficiently clearly that it is a consultation paper and, as such, it is open to anyone to comment upon it in any way they wish. As I said at the time of our last debate on this subject, the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, will, as on this occasion, make a very considerable contribution to our thinking.
I, too, like my noble friend Lord Sandford, do not intend to go into the depth that I might otherwise have done had we been going into the "nuts and bolts", if I may call them that. In many ways, the proposals that we have are not, in my view, ungenerous. Where the difficulty arises is in the points which have been made about the very small district authorities who, clearly, do have a problem. If there was a limitation they would be restricted; but it is also right to point out that at the present time, with the powers they currently have, out of a total of some £90 million available to them, they are taking up only £12 million. That may be a reflection of the interest they have taken hitherto or, in fairness, it may be that the problems have not been as great hitherto and are becoming greater only at the present time. One has to be objective when looking at this. Nevertheless, when talking about the totality of this amount of spending, the fact is that out of the sum available of £90 million, the amount being taken up at the present time is £12 million. Let us put that into the picture when trying to come to a proper conclusion.
The other points made were also very fair. My noble friend Lord Mottistone and the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, and certainly my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes, raised a very important point too: the question of to what extent local authorities should be in the business of venture capital. There are question marks over this. There is a whole range, starting with the small authority which can give vital assistance to "pump priming", in getting a business going. I am sure everyone would accept that in the

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right circumstances and subject to proper supervision, such assistance can be most helpful. On the other hand, there is the extreme case mentioned by my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes. One cannot have a situation where every local authority, with access to millions of pounds, is suddenly going into business. The whole matter of accountability comes into this. We would be deluding ourselves if we were to say other than that we all know of cases where such a system could be abused. I will go no further than saying that tonight, but on another occasion, perhaps I might go further.
There it is. Without my going into great depth on what has been said, I hope, first, that everyone will accept that we are concerned, that we are not trying to say this is what we propose and on this we stand. It is not like that. We put out a consultation document. We are waiting for the responses to that. We recognise that there is a degree of urgency, because I know, from conversations with my noble friend Lord Sandford and others, including the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, that there are certain situations at the moment that are tending to hinder. The prospect of what might come forward is tending to create certain reservations in the minds of those who might put forward money and so on. We are anxious to get that out of the way as quickly as possible. That means that we accept that there is a need for some speedy decision. The consultation process is about to finish and we will pick it up very quickly and move on, but I hope no one would say that we can do other than await the response; otherwise how can one talk of consultation.
If I may comment on some of the specific points made, before I respond as the little bird to which my noble friend referred, I think I have covered most points. The noble Baroness, Lady David, asked about the 2p and who should have this. At the present time both the county councils and the designated districts would have the 2p. Again it is a matter of consultation and we would have to see. The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, made a point about the regional policy. That is a point of view. I hear what he says and he knows that I have great confidence in his views on matters of this kind. In turn, I hope he will accept that there could be other points of view as well. I think on this we would probably agree to differ and perhaps try to persuade each other privately when we discuss it. So I will not tonight go into the matter of regional policy, slightly tempted though I am; I think that is for another occasion.
I would want to say this, and I hope no one would quarrel with me on this. There can never have been any Government in this country who have done, and are doing and intend doing, what we are doing to help small businesses. I say that categorically, not as a political point, but a point that it is fair to make. There are now over 60 measures we are bringing forward to try to help small businesses. How, therefore, can anyone feel that we are other than anxious, or consider that what we are proposing might go in the opposite direction. We are concerned and we are going to go on being concerned, and we are going to go on doing things to help small businesses. That is why what is being said by my noble friend's amendment is important to us, because we do not want it to have the adverse effect which he thinks it might have.
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I think I should comment on the point my noble friend Lord Colville made when he asked: Can any local authority spend the 2p rate under Section 137 and would this mean that they would in addition have the additional money? My understanding is that they would have the additional money and we would then be talking about 4p or 4½p. We are at the stage of consultation, but that is as I understand it. I suspect that that would confirm to my noble friend Lord Colville that it is a matter for concern that has been expressed all the way round.
Let me say this in conclusion. I hope your Lordships will gather that we have taken all the points made here. We undertake to consider these very carefully indeed. In saying this I stress the urgency. I have stressed the urgency; I do not need anyone to stress it for me, so far as time is concerned. We have a Bill going through at the present time and we want to see how far we can get with that. I am, unfortunately, not able to be as forthcoming as perhaps one might like to be, but I give this absolute assurance; that we will take this away and consider very carefully what has been said. I cannot say what will happen at other stages of the Bill, but I hope I have said enough to assure your Lordships of the serious intent to take very seriously all that has been said.
Lord Sandford: I am most grateful to my noble friend and all those who have participated in this short debate, particularly those who have supported the general spirit behind this amendment. I was one who welcomed the consultation paper as an indication that the Government were now seriously applying their mind to this issue. I did say that I had a number of criticisms to make, but I forebore to deploy them on this occasion. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, for doing so, and there is more that could be said of that kind.
I would like to put this to my noble friend Lord Mottistone. Would he not rather see local authorities spending money in this area rather than in some other areas, and therefore would he not possibly welcome this clause? I hope he will consider and ponder the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff. As to the number of different 2p's that could be spent, my intention, though I may not have been successful, was that the effect of subsection (1), the last few sentences, was to preclude the use of Clause 137 for assistance to industry once this amendment or something like it is on the statute book. Of course there is another possibility of spending 2p under the inner areas Act, but perhaps we need not go into that in great detail.
The guaranteeing of bank loans is one of the things that local authorities are able to do now under local Acts, but these are all due to expire in 1984. Noble Lords will realise quickly enough that any contract, a contract of employment, a contract for sale of land, a contract for the erection of buildings, anything of that kind depending on an Act which is going to expire in 1984, is not the slightest bit of good when you are asking bank managers to consider the contracts or solicitors to draw up documents. Powers vested in local authorities by local Acts expiring in 1984 are inoperable at present and more and more of them are becoming so. This illustrates the need for urgency,

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and I am grateful to my noble friend for taking the point.
Now that we have a consultation document it is important to see the way in which the consultation period and the parliamentary progress of this Bill interact. Thanks to the unwitting alliance of my noble friend Lord Nugent, with the sex shops, and the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, with his dogs, this Bill has been conveniently delayed; I understand that the Report stage and the Third Reading cannot be taken until after Easter, which means that the Bill will go back into another place just as the consultation period is ending. So what we have succeeded in doing is to enhance the consultation period and bring the Government's mind to bear on this issue to a degree which the consultation paper on its own might not have done. I hope that will encourage my noble friend to stick to the assurance that he was on the point of giving, but did not quite give, that we shall see legislation in this Bill. Anyway, we can accept my noble friend's assurance and withdraw this amendment because we have one more stage; when we have enjoyed our Easter Recess we can come back again and we have the option of looking at the Government amendment, which I hope to see, or reintroducing this one if we do not see a Government amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Denham: I think this is probably a convenient moment to adjourn temporarily the Committee stage. I suggest we re-start the Committee stage at 8 p.m.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.10 until 8 p.m.]
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby moved Amendment No. 97:
After Clause 28, insert the following new clause:
("Control of stray dogs.
PART
DOGS
.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, every local authority shall assume responsibility for the control and welfare of stray dogs within its area and for this purpose may exercise the power of section 3 of the Dogs Act 1906 with respect to the seizure, detention and disposal of stray dogs in its area.
(2) If a local authority inform the Secretary of State that in their opinion a direction should be made under this subsection because the small number of stray dogs or the ntaure of the problems of control or welfare caused by the stray dog population in the local authority area are such that the assumption of responsibility under subsection (1) above would not be justified, he may, after consulting such persons as he thinks fit, direct that the provisions of this Part shall not apply to that local authority.
(3) Where a local authority assume responsibility for the control and welfare of stray dogs under subsection (1) above, they shall perform the duties in Part I of Schedule (Dog Wardens) to this Act.
(4) Where a local authority assume responsibility for the control and welfare of stray dogs under subsection (1) above, they may appoint do wardens to enable them to carry into effect the provisions of this Act.
(5) Where a local authority appoint a dog warden under subsection (4) above, the dog warden may exercise the general powers set out in Part II of Schedule (Dog Wardens) to this Act.").
The noble Lord said: I hope that your Lordships, who have come back from supper suitably refreshed, will be able to join my two noble friends and myself in something of a legislative adventure. In moving
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Amendment No. 97 I ask your Lordships to consider at the same time 14 other amendments to make a composite whole. Your Lordships may say that this is another Bill—a Bill within a MI. That is quite true: it is one miscellaneous provisions Bill inside another miscellaneous provisions Bill. There has been nothing quite so bold since the Government themselves introduced sex shops into this Bill at the final stages of its progress through another place. On sex shops, the Government, under the cover of a clause of modest length, included Schedule 3 which takes up 12½ pages of small print. Nothing so audacious is proposed in the amendments which I submitted to the Committee just now. What we are proposing is something socially more useful: more pleasant to deal with; and of greater benefit to the community.
In debates of this kind I nearly always find a companion in an article in a most useful magazine called New Society. Your Lordships might find it useful as an aid to taking part in debates in your Lordships' House. On 26th June 1980 there was an article on "The rise in the domestic pet". It said that in Britain we are said to be pet mad, but we are not so animal-ridden as France and we are not so potty about pets as the Americans. With a feeling of being very much in the middle of the road on pets we can proceed to consider how we deal with the nation's dogs.
These amendments are really a revised edition of a Bill which almost went through another place. Sex shops scrambled through in the last day of the Report stage in another place. But people wanted to be so nasty to sex establishments that they really did not stop to consider what they were doing. However, as regards the Bill that contained these amendments, Members of Parliament spent a whole day debating a Private Member's Bill introduced by Mr. Jack Aspinwall, the Conservative Member for Kingswood, called the Dogs (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Unfortunately, it came to grief that day. Although Mr. Aspinwall had been lucky enough to have a high place in the ballot for Private Members' Bills and had the first order of the day on a Friday, at the end of the day he failed to muster enough support to carry the closure and the Bill was talked out. That was probably due to some misunderstanding on his part and possibly some confusion in the minds of many other Members of another place who were asked to consider the Bill.
The Aspinwall Bill in another place, which was talked out on 19th February, had been trimmed from the structure of recommendations upon which it was based—and with which I shall deal a little later—in order to meet objections put to him by the Home Office that the Bill was rather unwieldy and had certain defects, and if it could be made shorter and simpler it would be more acceptable. So he did that, but when it came to the point, the Home Office Minister had no advice to offer Members in another place. He had not had time to consider all the implications or he had not had enough time to consult other departments. There was lame excuse after lame excuse for advising Members in another place that he had no advice to offer. That led to the Bill coming to grief.
So my noble friends and I have followed what I shall describe as the "Mansfield Law"—namely, if you want to do something grasp the first opportunity of any vehicle that will take you on your way. That

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is what the noble Earl said on the Deer Bill, and I thought what good advice it was. I had no idea how speedily I could follow it. Here it is: we have grasped at this Bill. It is a miscellaneous Bill; it is full of everything—street trading, the licensing of eating houses, the licensing of everything under the sun. A golden opportunity opened up to repair the damage done to our legislative process by the curious happenings along the corridor. I see no reason why your Lordships' Committee should not repair the deplorable defects in procedure which are attached to Private Members' Bills in another place. That is my introduction.
I now want to explain, in order to make the Committee's acceptance of my proposals so much easier and so much simpler, that both the Aspinwall Bill to which I have referred and these amendments, taken as a whole, are based on two independent reports on the subject of dogs in society. The first was a report of the Joint Advisory Committee on Pets in Society, of which I was chairman. There is nothing more respectable than a report of a committee of which I have been chairman, especially on the subject of dogs, on which we spent a very long time and took a good deal of evidence. That advisory committee was composed of all the dog welfare organisations in the country. Anybody who was anybody on dogs was a member of the Joint Advisory Committee on Pets in Society—JACOPIS for short.
The Labour Government knowing how important a task we were embarking upon, decided to set up their own show and appointed an inter-departmental committee which they called a working party. It produced the Report of the Working Party on Dogs. Our report came out in 1975; their report came out in 1976. Governments have been shilly-shallying on both of those reports ever since.
The Official Working Party on Dogs followed very faithfully indeed the recommendations that my own committee made to them. Therefore, the two reports came broadly to similar conclusions. Ever since 1976 JACOPIS and local authorities, which are very keen on all this, have been urging successive Governments to take action. Various delegations have met Ministers. But what it was that made it difficult for Governments to tackle this question I really do not understand: whether, politically, they were afraid that it was undesirable to raise the dog licence fee, or whether they thought that they ought not to be imposing additional responsibilities upon local authorities. There are quite a number of reasons why they said that the time was not suitable to take any action.
The recommendations of both the reports were, first and foremost, to transfer the responsibility for dealing with the problem of stray dogs from the police to local authorities. I need not enlarge on that recommendation; it was unanimous on both committees. It has been the keystone of the proposals ever since. As to the size of the stray dog problem, the Under-Secretary at the Department of the Environment told the House of Commons last November that there are probably about a million dogs generally on the loose in this country. We all know from reports of sheep-worrying, of accidents on the roads being caused by stray dogs and other problems, that there is considerable concern about stray dogs.
Both of the reports to which I have refrered recommended that the transfer of responsibility from the police to the local authorities should be mandatory—should be statutory and not optional. Mr. Aspinwall's Bill made it optional for the local authority to assume the responsibility for care and control of stray dogs. It was a responsibility which it could assume if it wished, but not otherwise. That was the Bill which was dealt with in another place.
As I have said, the two reports which I have mentioned were in favour of statutory transfer. Therefore, in these amendments we have provided for the transfer from the police to local authorities to be imposed on local authorities, with a proviso in subsection (2) that any local authority which feels that a direction should be made to exclude it from assuming this responsibility can make representations to the Minister who:
"after consulting such persons as he thinks fit, [could] direct that the provisions of this Part shall not apply to that local authority."
So it would not be mandatory on local authorities which felt that there was a strong case for excluding them.
The second important respect in which the two committees were in agreement was the source fixing the dog licence fee and the amount. Both committees felt that the dog licence fee should be fixed by the Minister, who has powers to do so at present; that it should be a national contribution by dog owners, and the money would go to the resources of the respective local authorities. The Bill that was dealt with in another place and these amendments leave the fixing of the dog licence fee to the local authority, which, in deciding the amount, shall have regard to the cost that it incurs in running the scheme of dog wardens and other administrative expenses. In passing, I want to mention that two ministers who we saw from two Governments both suggested that it might be desirable to have the fee fixed by local authorities and not have a mandatory fee fixed centrally.
The working party suggested a fee of £5 at 1975 prices. That would be an increase from 37½p at the present time to £5, but, of course, we all know that 37½p was 7s. 6d. in the old currency and dates back to the last century. We know that no more than half the dogs in the country are licensed at present: and we also know that every dog licence now paid costs the state more to collect than it receives. Actually, if we want to save public expenditure at the present time, we should tell people not to pay any more licence fees for their dogs. But, of course, there is more to it than that. The committee of which I was chairman suggested that probably a fee of a little less than £5 might be appropriate in view of the fact that the police costs are already borne by the state, and in the transfer of their powers and work to local authorities, some contribution might be regarded as appropriate to the local authorities themselves.
The third important matter relates to enforcement of the payment of the licence fee and the display by the dog, like the motorcar, of evidence of the possession of a licence. The two advisory committees were not of the same mind on this proposal. The committee of which I was chairman was strongly in favour of requiring a dog to have a collar which should bear a disc issued by the licensing authority bearing the

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identity of the dog, the name and address of the owner and evidence of the payment of the licence fee. The official working party did not go as far as that, but entrusted the dog wardens with power to demand production of the dog licence from anyone in a public place with a dog. However, in our amendments now before your Lordships—Amendments Nos. 100 and 101—we include provision for the issue, with the licence, of an identity disc to be worn by the dog when in a public place. That seems to be the most satisfactory and complete way of ensuring that dogs have licences, and evidence of them will be worn.
As to the duties of local authorities and the principles and powers of the dog warden schemes, one might say that there is general agreement about the powers and duties of dog wardens. We include them in the amendments, but there are already quite a few dog wardens about in numerous local authorities. The only drawback for many local authorities at the moment is that, while they have the dog warden scheme, they cannot levy the dog owners an additional licence fee. Therefore, they have to provide for all this to be done out of other revenues and, under the law, they are not allowed to levy an additional rate greater than 2p to pay for services of this kind.
But I want to stress the fact that Mr. Aspinwall in another place trimmed his Bill in the hope that some progress could be made and an end brought to the dilatoriness of successive Governments on this question. He did the trimming, but he did not get his Bill. I stress the urgency of this matter. This Bill provides an opportunity to make progress on something upon which Governments have not chosen to do it for themselves. I think we should now insist on its being done.
I want to draw the attention of your Lordships to two grave dangers at the present time. One is rabies. I do not know whether we have really contemplated the panic and the shambles that there would be in this country if we had a serious outbreak of rabies. We would not know where half the dogs in the country were. We would not be able to trace the ownership of more than half the dogs in the country at the present time. It is desirable that we have to keep track of dogs in the event of an outbreak of rabies, otherwise some panic measures of slaughter, or impounding, anything in a situation of that kind, would be regarded as justified to meet the emergency that had arisen.
The other threat, the other danger, is a comparatively new one. Here I am not speaking for any society. Your Lordships must be aware of the financial problems of voluntary societies at the present time. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has had to seek, and obtain, a substantial subvention from the Government to carry out its work, especially in the removal of children to care and prosecutions for cruelty. Voluntary societies cannot be expected to carry the responsibility for enforcing the law indefinitely, or of undertaking duties which properly belong to the police.
The article in New Society, to which I referred earlier, says that something like 300,000 dogs are put down in this country every year. That is on top of over half a million puppies which are destroyed very soon after birth because they are not wanted. If the figure of
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300,000 is anything near accurate, then the RSPCA alone destroy one-fifth of the total number of dogs destroyed in this country every year. That is a most distressing and unwelcome responsibility.
It is not the job of voluntary societies, who are there to save animals from cruelty and destruction, to have to undertake this large slice of killing of dogs which should properly fall on statutory authorities. This cannot go on indefinitely. I do not think that the careless, the heartless, and the positively cruel human beings should be able to rely for all time on the voluntary donations of members of voluntary societies to spare their rejected animals from a cruel fate. Noble Lords should pay serious attention to what I am saying in this regard.
It is about time that greater discipline was encouraged and, if necessary, enforced among dog owners and in the treatment of dogs in this country. I do not believe that the trouble that arose in Burnley would have arisen had we had a scheme of this kind in operation. I sincerely hope that this is not going to be regarded as just a piece of show business. It is not. We are in earnest. Nobody else is, and we are. I hope that your Lordships are going to be in earnest about this.
I conclude by indicating to your Lordships the mechanics of what I propose should be done. The keystone amendment is 97. That is the assumption of responsibility. That places the responsibility for stray dogs upon the local authorities, but it allows in subsection (2) local authorities that feel that it would be inappropriate for them to take that responsibility to represent to the Minister that they should be excused from doing so.
The duties which are assumed by local authorities if they take them under Amendment No. 97 are set out in Amendment No. 127A. The duties of the dog wardens covered also by Amendment No. 97 are set out in Amendment No. 127A and Part II of the schedule. I suggest that the matter should be decided on Amendment No. 97. I suggest that your Lordships can take Amendment No. 97 as being the key clause.
Are you in favour of this broad scheme of transfer from the police to the local authorities, to be accompanied by dog warden systems and all the other associated matters to make the scheme composite and workable? If so, then I submit to you that you can adopt Amendment No. 97 and then accept all the associated amendments in order to complete the picture. If Amendment No. 97 is rejected, then the whole fabric of the amendments that I am moving collapses. The associated amendments are 97, 98, 99, 100 to 104, 126, 127A and B, 128, 132, 135, and 136.
What a wonderful thing it would be to make progress in this Committee if your Lordships could swallow the lot as I have suggested, put these amendments into the Bill, and let us give these amendments a Committee stage on the Report stage of this Bill. There is nothing like taking opportunities as they occur, and the Report stage would offer an opportunity of replacing the Committee stage which these proposals failed to get when the matter was dealt with in another place. Or send the Bill, with all the amendments in it, back to another place where they can sort out these amendments, as they should have done had they dealt properly with the Bill when they had it. That, I think, is the neatest legislative job that has come before your

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Lordships' House for quite a long time.
My final word is that if the Government would provide time for the completion of the Second Reading of that Bill in another place, then we should be relieved of the responsibility of having to repair the harm that has been done so far. There are precedents for this. When I was in the Government we decided as a matter of policy that no Private Member's Bill that got a Second Reading under its own steam should be frustrated for lack of time. We got some contentious Bills through as Private Members' Bills because we gave the time for Parliament to reach a conclusion on a matter of wide public interest which needed to be attended to.
Indeed, on one occasion when the Sex Discrimination Bill Second Reading was talked out by the late Sir Ronald Bell, the indignation and pressure on the Government were so strong that the Conservative Government gave extra time for the Second Reading of that Bill to be completed and it then went forward to a Select Committee. Therefore, there are precedents for it. If the Minister cares to assure us that the Government are considering it and would like to do something to further the progress of that measure, then there is no need for us to spend time on it here.
Although I have taken a long time, I doubt whether there are many blocks of 15 amendments that have been moved seriatim in so short a total of time as I have taken on this series. Besides, this is a very important subject, a new slice of the Bill, and it is an opportunity which the Government should take. Seven years is long enough for Governments to consider recommendations on a matter of great social and canine importance. Here is the opportunity, now is the time; all we need is the will. Unfortunately, there is not much sign of will sometimes in your Lordships' House. But here is an opportunity, in the interests of dogs and those who own them; 23 per cent. of all households in Britain have dogs, and one in eight of those have two or more. Thus, this is not just something incidental, a sort of tram ticket affair. This is an important side of our social life and the amendments provide rebates for and exemptions from the dog licence fee in suitable cases. I am grateful to the Committee for listening so calmly to what I have said. I beg to move.
8.32 p.m.
The Earl of Listowel: In supporting the admirable speech of my noble friend Lord Houghton, I shall follow his good example and speak at the same time to the other amendments relating to dogs. They hang together because they are all part of a scheme for setting up a nationwide dog warden service run by district councils for the control of stray dogs. I wish to underline, as Lord Houghton did, the proposal to transfer responsibility for the control of stray dogs from the police to local authorities. The main purpose is not to relieve the police, although this is a responsibility with which they are often glad to part because the police already have too much on their hands; they are undermanned and over-stretched for their primary functions of maintaining law and order and traffic control.
In the past, it has surely been unreasonable to add to that burden, as we have, by making the police responsible also for the control of stray dogs. It is not
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surprising that they have been completely unable to prevent the damage that has been, and still is being, done by stray dogs that are not controlled by their owners, both in urban areas and the countryside, and I will give some examples.
The National Farmers' Union complain of the loss to farmers from injury to their animals from, for example, sheep worrying done by dogs, often hunting in packs. In the last year for which we have figures, 1978, nearly 6,000 farm animals were injured in that way, and of course many other cases were not reported to the police. In the three years between 1975 and 1978, the average annual figure for farm animals killed or injured by dogs was 10,000, and the situation, although entirely different, was no less serious in the towns.
During the years I have quoted, nearly 2,000 people were injured in road accidents in which dogs were directly involved. Every car driver—your Lordships will be among them—will remember seeing solitary dogs on main roads often trying on their own to get through the traffic. To that danger should be added the nuisance of the fouling of pavements and playgrounds by dogs that are not controlled by their owners. Another evil of the present situation, and not the least, is that the police are not even able to enforce the licensing laws. It has been estimated by the Department of the Environment, as my noble friend Lord Houghton pointed out, that half the dogs in the country have not been licensed. So the case for transferring police powers for control and law enforcement in this respect to the local authorities is really unanswerable. The police have not been able to, and cannot, discharge this responsibility.
So that local authorities may be able to do the job, they will require to employ full-time or part-time dog wardens, such as many of them, I believe up to about 100, do at the present time. Those wardens would take over from the police the job of catching and holding stray dogs and of enforcing the licensing laws. But they should be regarded by the local community in which they work as the friend and not the hostile or carping critic of dogs or dog owners, for their first duty on apprehending a stray dog would be to try to trace the owner and return the dog, and that would give the warden what would probably be a very suitable opportunity to explain the need for responsible dog ownership.
Local authorities would, of course, be obliged to raise more money to pay for and equip their dog warden service. We therefore propose in this series of amendments to give them power to fix a reasonable fee for dog licences in their areas at a level which would cover their costs and would take into account not only the provision of a dog warden service but the cost of collecting the licence fees and paying rebates to those entitled to a free licence. A higher licence fee would hardly be unreasonable, considering that the present fee has remained unchanged for over 100 years and is now, as my noble friend pointed out, at a level insufficient even to pay for the cost of collecting it; I understand that the cost of collecting licence fees is about £3 million whereas the Revenue receives about £1 million.
I think the Committee will also agree that some dog owners should be exempted from any payment. They

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should include the blind, those in receipt of supplementary pensions and the working dogs of shepherds and farmers, if the local authorities think fit. The Government should agree, on the facts, that the present state of affairs is a disgrace to us all; the public in town and country are not adequately protected against dogs that are not controlled, and the law is both out of date and, because of its non-observance, being brought into contempt. If the Government reply that this measure is premature and is not the proper way to introduce a major change in the law relating to dogs, which I suspect may be the Minister's reply, I would remind him that the defects in the existing law have been drawn to the attention of successive Governments repeatedly for many years but without the slightest positive response.
They have turned a deaf ear to pleas for effective action made in both Houses and have ignored the recommendations in the report of their own departmental working party, in addition to the working party of which the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, was chairman; and their own report is already six years old. If they turn down our proposals in these amendments, as they have turned down other proposals in the past, and persist in refusing both to introduce their own legislation and to allow time for a Private Member's Bill in another place (which would be alternative ways of doing what we ask for) the least that they can do this evening is to tell the Committee how they consider that this serious social problem can be solved.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: Having all my life owned and trained dogs, from sheepdogs, to watch dogs, to sporting dogs, I support the amendments. The noble Earl who has just sat down made the very good suggestion that there should not have to be a licence and a licence fee for sheepdogs—and of course the present fee is absolutely absurd. But I think that there could be a danger here so far as sheepdogs are concerned. In an area in which, let us suppose, the local authority decided on a licence fee of £10, members of the urban public would say, "We can buy a sheepdog puppy and so won't have to pay a licence fee". But sheepdogs are not good dogs to have in urban areas because they require a great deal of work. They have to gallop miles and miles when they are working and have to be very well exercised. Therefore I would not agree with that suggestion of the noble Earl. I think that the same licence ought to be paid for all dogs, of all breeds.
I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, with regard to the problem of stray dogs. They have become such a problem in the last 10 or 12 years This is because in towns many people pass a pet shop and see a lovely little puppy, and say, "What a lovely present!", thinking of their daughter or son. They buy the puppy, but they do not appreciate that a puppy chews up things, and grows, and has to be house trained. After a few months they probably grow tired of it. Then they want to go on holiday, and they say, "What on earth do we do with the dog?" So many people just abandon their dogs. There have even been cases of dogs being left locked up in houses, which is extremely cruel. Many people drive out on to a main road and simply abandon their dogs. That is a very dangerous thing to do. It
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can cause an accident in which a human being might be killed and in which the dog probably is killed. On two occasions I found on the road dogs which had been run over. They were still alive, and it was extremely distressing to see them.
With regard to the welfare of dogs, I agree that it would be better if the local authorities were given responsibility for stray dogs and if dog wardens were appointed. I recall the Bill under which traffic wardens were introduced. That relieved the police of much trouble and unnecessary responsibility. After all, the police are there to catch criminals, and I think it is quite wrong for them to be given added duties regarding stray dogs. It would be far better to have dog wardens.
With regard to the licence fee, I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, that it would be far better if the local authorities set the licence fee, rather than have a mandatory licence fee fixed by the Government for all areas. If a local authority sees no use for dog wardens because it does not have stray dogs in its area—which could be so in certain country areas—there would be no point in having a high licence fee in that area, but in an area where there are a lot of stray dogs the licence fee ought to be at least £10.
There is also the question of rabies. If rabies ever came to this country—which God forbid!—it would be a great advantage to have stray dogs properly organised, which is not the case today. There is also the matter of sheep worrying, which the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, raised. There is a lot of sheep worrying by stray dogs. People from the towns go into the country and let their dogs free for a walk. The dogs then savage sheep. I agree that dog wardens could not do anything about that, but they could be helpful in another way. People who do not understand dogs allow them to stray and the bitches get in pup. If there were dog wardens, they could advise the owners to have their bitches spayed, which is a very simple operation.
I support the amendments, since what is proposed would relieve the police of an unnecessary duty. It is not a suitable duty for the police. It would also be of help to dog owners, in particular urban dog owners, if dog wardens could advise them on how to look after their dogs and stop them from having endless litters of puppies.
8.49 p.m.
Lord Cottesloe: I shall follow the admirable example of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, and speak to all 14 amendments together, since they create, or are designed to create, a complete and coherent system, but I hope perhaps that I shall not follow the noble Lord at such great length. The system which the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, explained would consist of transferring to the local authorities responsibility for dogs, in particular stray dogs. It would alter the arrangements in respect of dog licences, and it would create an army of dog wardens throughout the country. I am quite sure that the proposed new clauses are put forward with the best possible intentions, but I am equally sure that they are thoroughly misguided, and I hope that the Committee will not accept them.
This is not in any way a party matter. I have no interest that I should declare to the Committee in this matter. I have a great interest in dogs in general and

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in stray dogs in particular; in particular because for the last dozen years I have been the chairman (an unpaid chairman) of the Dogs' Home, Battersea, a charitable institution, more than a century old, which every year deals with 18,000 dogs in the Greater London area, nearly all of them strays.
Under the Dogs Act, as your Lordships know, the responsibility for stray dogs rests at the present time on the police, who have to keep them for seven days to enable their owners to claim them, after which, if they are not claimed, they are free to dispose of them in whatever way seems best. Incidentally, that period of seven days was fixed many years before the present Dogs Act 1906, at the express instance of Queen Victoria, no doubt because the weekend is the only time when people who are at work all the week are able to go and search for and reclaim their dogs—a point which Lord Houghton's committee seem to have overlooked when they recommended that the period should be reduced.
In London, the Battersea Dogs' Home carry out the statutory duty of the Metropolitan and City of London Police under contract, the police making each year a payment under the contract of the ascertained cost of keeping for the seven days the dogs that they pass on to us. We collect the dogs as required from the 190 or so police stations in the metropolitan area, we look after them for the statutory period, and if they are unclaimed we find new homes for the great majority of them. We also keep dogs for people who are unable to look after them while they are in hospital or, it may be, while they are detained in prison.
These arrangements work smoothly and happily, and we have representatives of the police on our committee. The total number of dogs we deal with each year has remained pretty steady at about 18,000; but while the number of strays reclaimed by their owners is only about 15 per cent.—a figure which makes it clear, I am sorry to say, that many of the strays are what I may call deliberate strays; dogs turned out by owners who, for one reason or another, find they cannot manage to keep them—the number for which we have found new homes has in recent years been doubled (in January, we found new homes for more than 1,000 dogs) and the residue that ultimately have to be put down has been halved. Of course, many of the dogs that we receive come to us diseased and irrecoverable, but in principle we never, and in practice we very seldom, have to put down a healthy dog.
I am not well informed about the arrangements outside London, but in some cities I know the RSPCA operate a similar service. At all events, the arrangements in the metropolitan area work smoothly and efficiently, and I am entirely without doubt that a transfer of responsibility from the police to the local authorities—whether, in London, to the large number of metropolitan boroughs or to the Greater London Council itself—would prove very much more expensive and very much less efficient. It would, in fact, be disastrous. I say that as one who has had some experience of local authorities, not only as a ratepayer but as having served for ten years after the war on the London County Council, which was, if I may say so, a more efficient body than the Greater London Council which succeeded it, and for five years on the old Hampstead Borough Council, an infinitely more
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efficient body than the Camden Borough Council, which absorbed it.
I may add that while of course we must all agree that the police have very many more important things to look after than stray dogs, my friends in the police force tell me what I am perfectly sure is true, that even if such a transfer as is proposed were to be made, they would still have to do all the work. So the change, with its establishment of an army of dog wardens, who, if they were armed with the powers to exercise their functions effectively, would form a great new bureaucracy as much detested by the public as are the traffic wardens, would bring a new system which would be cumbrous, inefficient and very expensive, and there is every reason for the Committee to reject it.
There is, however, one facet of these proposals that I warmly welcome, and that is that the dog licence fee, set more than a century ago at 7s. 6d and now standing at the equivalent figure of 37½p, should be increased to a figure more realistic today. I think it should certainly be increased to £5, possibly to a figure higher than that—a figure that would be worth collecting and would make the dog-owner feel that he had something worth looking after. The distasteful pill of an increase in the fee might perhaps be sweetened by including a right, initially, to a free inoculation, or something of that sort.
I also warmly support the suggestion that all dogs licensed should wear collars with the name, address and telephone number of the owner, and a disc to show that the licence fee has been paid. But even here, over licences, the proposers of the new system have got it wrong. It stands out a mile that whatever the fee may be there should be uniformity throughout the country, as with other licences, and not one figure in one local authority area and a different figure in another. It does not need very much thought to see that that would produce such a host of local anomalies that it would in fact be a nonsense. So on every ground I hope that these amendments will be withdrawn, but if they are not I hope that your Lordships will defeat them, and defeat them decisively. in the Division Lobbies.
Lord Evans of Claughton: May I express general support from these Benches from the amendments put down by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton? I suppose I should declare an interest as a dog-owner myself—a neutered Jack Russell. May I also say that, as the noble Lord the Minister is probably as aware as I am, we are now in the season of the year when people are rushing about canvassing for the local elections, and the biggest single problem with which they are confronted (at least in the part of the world where I come from and where I was a councillor for many years) is dog fouling.
But there is a much more serious problem in urban areas about dogs, the lack of licences for them and the way they are turned out from homes after they have been given as Christmas presents to the children, and that is the packs of dogs that very often terrorise housing estates in urban areas. They terrorise housing estates in the part of the world in which I live, and I am sure that this may be the experience of others of your Lordships who live in urban areas. So I think

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there is a clear need for control of a more specific kind than exists at present.
I respect very much what the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, said about the work that is done in the Battersea Dogs' Home and in various other organisations of that kind, but I think almost on his own confession the record outside the metropolitan area is, at best, very patchy. Some local authorities, like the one of which I used to be a member, do have dog wardens, but the Wirral Borough Council, with a population of 400,000-odd, had two part-time dog wardens, who could not do a very effective job in dealing with the problems presented by the number of dogs with which they had to deal. There seems to be wide agreement that, first, the dog licence should be very much increased over the absurd sum which is the present licence fee. I think it should be related to the cost of administering the service. If a local authority requires a large number of dog wardens, then in spite of the difficulty which, I recognise, would result from having different amounts in different districts, it might be more expensive to own a dog in an urban area than in a rural area. But that is probably a good thing because the more expensive it is to own a dog, the more careful the dog owner's will be in looking after them and not allowing them to disturb other people's lives. I take the point about the difficulty of having variable rates in different parts of the country; but where the problem is greater, the licence fee should be greater; and this would reduce the problem.
In the same way, I think that the owners of dogs that have been spayed or neutered should get a rebate on their licence fee because they are, in fact, discouraging the spread of the dog population and assisting in keeping it within limitations. I notice from the amendments that the age of attainment to qualify for a licence is six months. I think there is much to be said for introducing a puppy licence in addition to dog licences. Some of the greatest cruelty is done to very young dogs in the early days after they have ceased to be the overnight pets of children and are then thrown out while very young. There is a case for requiring either dog licences to be imposed earlier or that there be puppy licences, in addition.
I do not think this would result in a whole army of dog wardens. I think, that what would happen if we imposed a more economic dog licensing system, if we enforced that and if we had sufficient wardens to enforce it and took it from the police—which is a job they do not like doing—then, in a comparatively short time, the major problem of cruelty to dogs, of packs of dogs causing terror in neighbourhoods and the general cruelty to young dogs would disappear—not quickly, but would cease to be the major problem that it is today.
I support broadly the amendments put down by the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton. I think that his proposal that we should regard the Report stage as a Committee stage for these clauses is a good one. Although I broadly support the amendments put down, like most of your Lordships, I would like to be able to think of improvements that might be done to the various amendments moved en bloc. We would support this as a useful and important measure particularly for people living in urban areas.
9.3 p.m.
Lord Irving of Dartford: These amendments bring together the interests of those aggrieved by the pets of irresponsible owners and those very responsible dog owners who want to keep their pets and to live at peace with their neighbours; and, therefore, I believe they ought to have a wide appeal. They are necessary because of the widespread nuisance caused by stray dogs, of which the police dealt with 20,000 last year alone—a job they do not want, and understandably, for they can act as little other than dog catchers. There is a much wider problem involved in the education of pet owners as well as in dealing with the results of the actions of irresponsible pet owners.
That is why a whole range of organisations interested in animal welfare have come together; JACOPIS, with which I and my noble friends are associated, the RSPCA, the National Farmers' Union, the Local Authority Associations and, particularly, the ABC, of which I am vice-president. The problem, as the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has said, is great and urgent. In 1978, the last year for which figures were kept, 5,738 farm animals were injured by dogs; in the years 1975 to 1978, 10,000 a year were bitten or mutilated by uncontrolled dogs in Great Britain. On the roads 1,950 people in 1978 were injured in road accidents where a dog was involved and 11 people were killed; in 1979, 1,761 were injured and 14 people killed. The RSPCA say that dogs can spread unpleasant diseases and can create a serious nuisance by fouling pavements. Many people fail to take out licences and the Department of the Environment report in 1976 said that 1 out of 2 were not licensed. Dog ownership is entered into far too lightly and many pets are abandoned. Apart from financing the dog-warden scheme, it would discourage this irresponsible purchasing of pets and their abandonment.
The question is how best to deal with the problem. We believe that transferring responsibility to the local authority from the police—I have been a member of a local authority for 30 years and am still a member—and giving them powers to carry out this function is the best way to deal with the problem.
Both the RSPCA and JACOPIS believe that this is the way forward; the ABC is prepared on behalf of local authorities to accept responsibility. They all believe that by this means standards are likely to be inculcated in the dog-owning public to the advantage in welfare terms of dogs in general. Why legislate? Some may say that this is not necessary. Section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972 provides the basis for the appointment of dog wardens. But the ability to incur expenditure in the interest of inhabitants is circumscribed by Section 137(4) which provides that the total amount of such expenditure may not exceed the sum raised by a 2p rate. Those of us involved in local government know that there are plenty of demands on Section 137, anyway.
There are a number of objections to this. Section 111 of the 1972 Act is a catch-all provision. Where there is a specific need known in advance by the local authority, we believe that specific provision ought to be made. Many councils do not believe that they have adequate powers. Why else resort to private measures in private Bills? There is concern, too,

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that the district auditor or an aggrieved ratepayer may challenge successfully the establishment of a dog warden scheme; and for a council it is one of the things relevant to the assessment of the needs and resources of its area. It transfers the burdensome responsibility of dealing with stray dogs to local authorities as local authorities under the Dogs Act 1906 do not have power to deal with stray dogs. It relieves the police of this requirement. This would be pointless unless the local authority had power or authority to enforce this legislation and new powers are essential to deal with the problem. It is not comprehensive, as was originally intended. It does not deal with the issues of breeding or sale. Nor is it an attempt to codify the existing legislation which runs from the Act of 1839 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.
It is a modest attempt to deal with the issues raised by stray dogs, by transferring to local authorities the responsibility for dealing with them by providing a warden service which will deal with this serious and growing nuisance and at the same time help with animal welfare, and particularly with the job of educating pet owners about how they can keep their pets without giving offence to others. I hope that tonight the Government will be able to give in principle at least support to this proposal, one which we believe is overdue.
Lord John-Mackie: If I may delay the Committee for one moment, first I should like to declare my interest. I am a farmer and a dog owner. The point has been made that somewhere round about 6,000 cases of dog worrying take place every year. Anyone who has seen—as I have—the result of dog worrying among a flock of sheep, especially at lambing time, will realise that some control of dogs is very necessary indeed. Whether this is the right method or not I leave the Government to decide, but I support some system of the control of dogs.
I agree that the licence fee must be a national, uniform fee. I do not think one can expect every local authority to decide on the licence fee. The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, said that we should not rely on the RSPCA or the Battersea Dogs' Home; but there should be, I think, tremendous co-operation with the RSPCA. They have done a tremendous job in trying to control stray dogs. I understand they catch nearly half a million a year. They dispose of less than half of that number and have to destroy more than half of them. It is a big job and any council should co-operate with them.
Education is required. As has been said, it is amazing how many people think that a little puppy will remain that size, whereas it will grow—and I exaggerate—into a great St. Bernard. I blame pet shops a lot for this. There should be some control. I do not know whether there is any control from the Home Office of pet shops, but I think that the pet shops have a lot to blamed for regarding stray dogs.
When I was at the Ministry in the middle of the 1964–70 Government there was pressure from the NFU to have something done about dog worrying. It was left to me to see what could be done. I made the suggestion that first there should be an increase in the dog licence to £2. I remember an official at the Ministry saying: "What about the hounds?". I said that the last thing I would worry about—
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with all due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Margadale—was the hounds each having a licence at a cost of £2.
This matter was brought up at a Cabinet Committee meeting. I put this forward and it was left to be discussed. It was decided that it was politically a bad move. We were approaching an election and we would lose votes if we made the dog licence £2. I thought that this was ridiculous. However, I was overruled. Funnily enough, two weeks ago this was being discussed—and I shall not mention by which party—and they said: "Do not do anything before the Hillhead by-election. As the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, said, do not make it a party matter and then we might get something done. As I have said, I tried to do something round about 1967–68, which is nearly 20 years ago, and nothing has been done. My noble friend Lord Houghton pressed the Government that now is the time, and I think something should be done.
I should like to refer to rabies. In my time at the Ministry we had an outbreak of rabies in one dog in the New Forest area. If we had had some control or some register of dogs at that period it would have made life a lot easier in trying to trace any animal that might have been in contact with the dog that had rabies. As it happened, the dog was caught in time. There seemed to be no connection and the rabies did not spread. But it is a very real point.
I cannot understand why the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, thinks that dog wardens are in the same category as traffic wardens. I am sure they would be far more popular. As has also been said, there are a number of people who are disgusted with the mess made by stray dogs in parks and streets. If wardens did something to improve on that, I am sure they would be very popular instead of the other way about.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: I will not keep your Lordships very long at this late stage, but in view of the fact that the whole of the amendments we have before us are asking that the local authorities should take over these powers, I think that before the Government take any decision they should make sure that the local authorities are consulted in great detail. It is all very well giving them powers, but the powers are likely to involve them in expenditure. We heard what the noble Lord said about Battersea: in Birmingham we have three very large homes for dogs and the only way the police can operate the Dog Licences Act at the present moment is by the co-operation of the voluntary bodies who will take the dogs from the police. But who will take the dogs from the local authorities if there are no voluntary bodies in the various localities?
I have quite a large knowledge of dog wardens because the Birmingham constituency I used to represent was an inner city area, and it will be found that people living in the city in what we call "slum clearance houses" tend to have big dogs that bark very loud; they have those dogs purely and simply on the grounds of safety because their homes are very easy to get into and are substandard, with all that that involves. Then, when the local authority rehouses them and puts them into these lovely multi-storey blocks of flats, the local authority says: "No pets are allowed".

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Therefore, from my own knowledge of stray dogs I know what happens. It is not a question of just one or two dogs going down a motorway or two or three dogs chasing sheep, but as many as 40 or 50 in a pack going round the newer developments that have been constructed. I do not know whether we were very successful in keeping them down. We tried our best, but it is a difficult problem and all I would say is that if local authorities are being given powers which will involve them in expenditure they should be very seriously consulted. I raise no objections to the principle behind this, but it is consultation with local authorities that I am asking the Government seriously to consider.
Lord Collison: I think I am in order in speaking now—I had been hoping to rise before my noble friend on the Front Bench got to her feet. I would like just to comment that when the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, mentioned that this matter had been discussed a number of times before in this Chamber, I well remembered speaking myself on this subject several years ago. I spoke on it because, although I know the figures that have been given to us by the National Farmers' Union, I have also experienced the effects of sheep worrying myself on farms where I have worked. Of course, it is not a pleasant thing to observe or try to deal with when you see a dog with a sheep: to get him off takes some doing.
I also said when I spoke before to your Lordships that any dog can suddenly take on this proclivity for worrying sheep. I have a cousin who bought a so-called sheepdog, a collie, and the dog was perfectly house-trained; nobody could possibly have any objection to it. It would be taken for walks in the usual way; and then they brought this dog down to the country where I was living and working, and the first time the dog was taken out and let off the lead he immediately rushed for the sheep and began to worry them. Of course, it is not only sheep which are worried but other animals on the farm.
I do not want to detain your Lordships now, but the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, mentioned the problem of puppies. This is one of them—you never know. The noble Earl mentioned that this matter has been discussed before. So it has—many times—and I hope that we can get assurances from the Government on this occasion that something will be done about it.
9.19 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: May I first of all say that I have listened very carefully to all your Lordships who have spoken, and especially at the beginning to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton. May I say that I admired very much, as I always do, his assiduousness and his articulation. He is always so persuasive, but I think he knows better than most, perhaps, that this is not an easy one to put over to your Lordships. May I say also that I unreservedly accept that the movers and the supporters of the amendment are, as he says, in earnest and that they feel very deeply about this matter. I think that should be made quite clear straight away.
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In turn, those who have spoken in favour of the amendments would also accept that there are strongly held and differing views on the subject of dogs. It is evident that, despite the concern about dog nuisance problems, with which the Government are sympathetic, there are major differences of view about the extent and nature of the problems and about the right way of dealing with them. Clearly, this is reflected in the different approaches already employed at local level to deal with dogs. Although there are said to be deficiencies in existing local authority powers, much can be done and local authorities can assess local problems and priorities as regards action on dogs. If they have a dog nuisance problem, they are surely best placed to decide on the most appropriate way of proceeding, given local circumstances, and they can, and do, in my experience, take action under existing legislation when public annoyance and even distress is caused by dogs.
For example, local authorities use their powers to make by-laws, confirmed by the Home Secretary, in respect of fouling and dog control. In addition, some local authorities have made orders designating roads in their areas on which it is an offence to allow a dog without a lead. Authorities can also use their powers to make curfew regulations in respect of dogs to try to prevent cattle worrying. Other authorities have obtained powers, similar to those of the police, to deal with strays where they feel that they have a particularly serious problem of dog nuisance. While many authorities have already set up dog warden schemes, many others have not done so. Whether or not they do so must be a matter for local discretion, given local circumstances, local needs and local priorities. This is an area in which, traditionally, local authorities have been free to act as they see fit using all, or any, of their existing powers as necessary.
There has been discussion and observations have been made about the licence fee itself and its collection costs. Clearly, the fee now is derisory, but any alterations—and I do not think anyone would quarrel with this—must be made as part of a general revision of the law as a whole, in relation to dogs, which may one day or another take place. I regret that the Government have been unable to accord a high priority at the present time to overall consideration of the subject of dogs. It is for this reason that, as has been indicated before now, we have no plans for early action on follow-up to the working party's report on dogs. However, I note that the amendments appear to conflict with the recommendations of that report; for example, in proposing local determination of the level of the dog licence fee. Seemingly, they would create a very complex system involving both central and local government for dealing with dog nuisance problems.
It will be useful if I turn for a moment to the amendments and their ramifications. These amendments seek to place new duties on local authorities, and those duties are to be mandatory—not discretionary. Even the Aspinwall Bill was discretionary. Every local authority is to assume responsibility for the control, welfare, seizure, detention and disposal of stray dogs in its area, and to perform the duties specified in Part I of the schedule, entitled Dog Wardens. The duties set out in the schedule involve the local authority in surveying its area; for example, to determine the

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identity and location of stray dogs. A local authority will not be responsible for carrying out these provisions; if the Secretary of State directs that the provisions of the Act shall not apply. To arrive at this situation, a local authority would have to inform the Secretary of State that, in their opinion, a direction should be made, because the size and nature of the stray dog problem in their area does not, in effect, warrant their being obliged to carry out the requisite mandatory responsibilities.
I thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal, made the point so well about the powers and duties of local authorities. She, like me, and I am sure many others, has also had experience of this situation, which can be very difficult. I certainly want it to be dealt with by authorities in their own way, as they think best. It is their responsibility and they have the opportunities and the powers, if they wish to use them.
As the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, said, the licensing arrangements proposed in the amendments would, it seems, work in tandem with the system of assigning numbered registration discs to be worn by dogs in public places, and the licences issued would license a particular dog identified on the licence form by a full description, including any distinguishing marks. One can only guess at the amount of paper work which would be involved. In addition, the resource implications for local government of new mandatory duties or of getting rid of some of them, once acquired, have to be evaluated and very seriously considered. Finally, there is the question of need in relation to mandatory or discretionary powers. There are arguments favouring one or other approach, just as there are as regards a nationally or locally determined level of licence fee.
We do not consider that the package which the amendments present offers a satisfactory or practicable solution. In looking at the problem it is necessary to consider the position of dogs in society, both rural and urban, and see how all the problems of nuisance and control square up with existing legislation, of which there is an abundance. This is an enormous task.
It is appreciated that many of your Lordships have been concerned for many years about the control and welfare of dogs. For example, the Government are well aware of the activities of the Joint Advisory Committee on Pets in Society, but I am sure noble Lords will recognise that there are a number of complex issues relating to dogs. I am sure noble Lords will also recognise that strong views are held on dogs, both for and against ways of tackling the problem. I would suggest that these cannot be solved here and now by creating a new and complicated piece of legislation. Furthermore, I would point out that the subject matter of the amendments does not meet the criteria for including it in the Bill. These proposals are not based on a sufficiently broad consensus of opinion. For example, they are not well precedented in post-April 1974 local authority Acts, which contain only some discretionary provisions concerning the control of dogs.
Disappointed though I know the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, will be (and, indeed, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the noble Lord, Lord Irving of Dartford, and all those who have spoken as they have) the Government do not consider it to be appropriate to try to deal comprehensively with the issue of dogs—which, I say again, involves control of strays, dog
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warden systems and licensing arrangements—within the context of the Bill. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, who will certainly agree that there has been extensive discussion tonight of the matter, will feel that he does not wish to press the amendments. It is with that perhaps optimistic hope—but I never fail to be so—that I sit down, having presented the Government's position.
9.29 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: The noble Lord's expectation that I would be disappointed puts it mildly. He has just given us the classic prescription for Governments doing nothing. Why appoint committees to go into problems and then disregard the work that they do? And why not heed a good deal of public concern about this problem?
I was very surprised by the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe. I will make it my business to look up the evidence of the Battersea Dogs' Home to the working party in 1975. I am sure it will be worth while studying and I shall make it my business to find out what they said. They gave oral evidence to the working party, besides putting in a written document.
On local authorities generally, the impetus behind these amendments and the work which we are doing in this field comes from local authorities. Noble Lords do not know what is going on. What is going on at the present time are seminars and conferences with local authorities all over the country under the auspices of JACOPIS, and consultation with local authorities and police authorities—who are all behind the broad structure of the reforms which I have put to your Lordships' Committee tonight. I can assure my noble friend Lady Fisher of Rednal that not only are local authorities being consulted, they are making the running, because they want the additional powers that these amendments will give them. I must point out to the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, that local authorities certainly do have dog wardens at the present time; they have taken the initiative.
The Bill that the Government could not make up their minds about in another place did not make mandatory the provisions in these amendments. As I pointed out, they were trimmed at the suggestion of representatives of departments in order to move the thing forward without imposing too heavy a burden upon local authorities, a burden that did not want them. We thought it was desirable to present to your Lordships a stronger Bill containing stronger recommendations, in order that your Lordships could see what the situation required.
Local authorities have no power to deal with the finances of the dog warden system; they cannot impose an additional levy upon dog owners. They cannot even make any money out of the existing licence. Do the Government really contemplate that the dog licence farce will go on indefinitely? What is the point of having a tax on dogs which is 50 per cent. evaded? The Government all go white when they think of the black economy and at the evasion of taxation in other fields, but apparently they can contemplate the wholesale evasion of dog licence fees. But with wardens, it is not a question of the dog licence fee but of knowing where the dogs are. They have no power to enforce

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the payment of the licence fee to any greater extent than is being done at present.
I am very sad about this, but when a noble Lord is as old as I am, the great thing is to live to fight another day. That is what I propose to do. I am going to beg leave to withdraw Amedment No. 97. I hope that I shall be spared the "Jack in the Box" operation of getting up and down to say "Not moved" in respect of the other 14 amendments. I should like to give notice now that I shall not move the 14 other associated amendments. To save me the risk of shortening my life by the action of popping up and down to say "Not moved", I hope that the Chair can accept that, and will let it rest there.
I will withdraw Amendment No. 97, but I will consult with my friends as to what we will do in the later stages of this Bill. I respectfully thank all those who contributed to this debate. I will take note of the criticisms and suggestions which have been made, and we may wish to incorporate them in some revised version of what we propose to do. The "Mansfield Law" states that one should stick to one's vehicle and progress if one can. That is what we propose to do.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 98 to 104 not moved.]
Clause 29 [Enforceability by local authorities of certain covenants relating to land]:
9.34 p.m.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 105:
Page 34, line 6, leave out ("become") and insert ("are").
The noble Lord said: Since Clause 29 replaces Section 126 of the Housing Act 1974, Amendment No. 106 is necessary to ensure the continued enforceability of covenants to which Section 126 applies. Amendment No. 105 is consequential on the previous amendment, No. 106. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 106:
Page 34, line 25, after ("section") insert ("or section 126 of the Housing Act 1974 (which is superseded by this section)").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 107:
Page 35, line 13, at end insert—
("(4A) If a person against whom a covenant is enforceable by virtue of subsection (2) above requests the principal council to supply him with a copy of the covenant, it shall be their duty to do so free of charge.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment simply puts an obligation on the local authority, if so requested, to provide free of charge a copy of any enforceable covenant to persons against whom the covenant may be enforced, where they were not party to the covenant when it was entered into. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 108:
Page 35, line 14, leave out subsection (5).
The noble Lord said: This amendment provides for the omission of subsection (5). That subsection is
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unnecessary since Section 1(1)(d) of the Local Land Charges Act 1975 deals with the matter. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 109:
Page 36, line 13, at end insert—
("(10) Section 126 of the Housing Act 1974 (which is superseded by this section) shall cease to have effect; but in relation to a covenant falling with subsection (2) of that section, section 1(1)(d)of the Local Land Charges Act 1975 shall continue to have effect as if the reference to the commencement of that Act had been a reference to the coming into operation of the said section 126.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment provides for Section 126 of the Housing Act 1974 to cease to have effect and, in consequence of Amendment No. 108, ensures that covenants falling within subsection (2) of Section 126 will continue to be registered as local land charges. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30 agreed to.
Clause 31 [Control of fly-posting]:
Viscount Ridley Viscount Ridley moved Amendment No. 110:
Page 37, line 14, after ("borough") insert (" and as respects an area being or comprising the whole or any part of a National Park, the National Park Committee Joint Planning Board or Special Planning Board").
The noble Viscount said: I am afraid this is dull stuff after all the dogs, but I hope it will take a good deal less time than they did. This amendment refers to Clause 31 which as at present drafted enables district councils, which are the authority responsible for advertisement control under town and country planning legislation, to remove illegal advertisements. I think your Lordships will agree that this is a very valuable and useful new power to have, that unsightly advertisements should be able to be physically removed.
The Government have clearly linked this new function to the advertisement control system, and indeed the Minister in introducing this clause at Report stage in another place said that the new power is deliberately linked with the system of planning control over outdoor advertising. But I think I must introduce this amendment because district councils are not responsible for the control of advertisements in national parks. This function is exercised by the national park authorities. Your Lordships will recall that we have had numerous debates in previous legislation about the planning functions of national parks authorities, which are quite distinct from the functions outside national parks.
Of course, it can be argued that the physical removal of offending advertisements will be carried out by the staff of the district councils involved because they have such staff equipped to do it outside national parks. I am quite certain that it does not mean that the district council should have the statutory authority. That is why I move this amendment. It is, of course, possible for the national park authority to enter into an agency agreement with the district under the Local Government Act 1972 which allows the district to do this work for it. But it is right, I

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think, that where the control of advertisements rests the new power of control should also rest. I can only give one example, the Peak District, where there are at least 9 district councils, all of whom might have separate operations, and confusion could result. I think it would be much better if national park authorities responsible for the control of advertisements and the issuing of planning permission were responsible for the removal of offending advertisements. This is all the amendment seeks to do. I think it is a simplification.
I would only add that I have the support of the Countryside Commission, who are the Government's advisers in these matters, who say—and I think they are right—that it would make very good sense for control of such things to rest with the national park authorities and for them to deal with advertisement control.
Baroness David: The noble Viscount also has the support of our Benches. It seems quite right that the national parks, as planning authorities, should have this right of control as well.
Lord Beliwin: I understand that my noble friend's amendment is inspired by a suggestion that he has had from the Association of County Councils, with some support from the Countryside Commission. I have listened, as I always do, very carefully to what my noble friend said, and I know that officials in the Department of the Environment have listened just as carefully to the Association of County Councils, whose views on matters such as this we always respect. It is, therefore, with some regret that I say to my noble friend that, after this most careful consideration of the issues which this amendment raises, we feel that we are unable to accept it.
If I may say so, I think that the ACC have misunderstood the basic purpose of the new power given to district councils by Clause 31 of the Bill. It is not an additional power for planning control over outdoor advertising: that is why the clause is not drafted so as to give this new power to local planning authorities in England and Wales. If it were such a power, then I quite agree with my noble friend that it would be entirely appropriate also to confer the power on the national park authorities for England and Wales. Instead, what the clause does is to give district councils a new power to remove or obliterate a particular type of nuisance, namely: "fly-posting". This is consistent with other powers district councils already have—for example, in the Public Health Act 1936—to remove or abate various nuisances. Moreover, the new power has been carefully modelled on the example already set in three local Acts where district councils have been given a similar power in the areas of South Yorkshire, Tyne and Wear, and the County of Kent. These provisions have been thoroughly discussed with the local authority associations and nobody has suggested that the clause, as drafted is not workable in practice.
There is one further consideration which I hope that my noble friend will find persuasive. If a national park authority or one of the two planning boards, want to exercise this power, I am advised that it should be practicable for them to do so by means of an agency arrangement entered into under Section 101 of the Local Government Act 1972 with the district council,
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once Clause 31 in this Bill has been enacted. I do not say that I would necessarily want to encourage this in all national parks because there may be reasons why it is not always appropriate. But the possibility is there and I commend it to my noble friend. I hope that, with those brief remarks, my noble friend Lord Ridley perhaps now appreciates why I cannot accept the amendment. But I think that what he wants can be achieved in practice by another route. I hope, for that reason, that he will not feel it necessary to press the amendment further.
Viscount Ridley: I am not at all persuaded by my noble friend the Minister. He does not seem to have answered any of my arguments as regards the amendment which is meant to simplify the Bill. However, it is not a matter of such importance that requires a Division. I just remain unsatisfied and I may raise the matter at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.44 p.m.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs Baroness Ewart-Biggs moved Amendment No. 110A:
Page 37, line 15, at end insert ("or other unauthorised message").
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 110A. The purpose of this amendment is to provide that the control by local authorities of fly-posting should be extended to include the spray painting or, indeed, the inscription by any other method, of slogans and expressions on walls and buildings. In my view, a powerful argument in favour of this inclusion is that these two forms of defacement clearly go together. If fly-posting is found to be offensive, then so surely, equally, is the scrawling on walls of slogans. I do not see how one can possibly be divorced from the other.
This clause has been drafted on an adoptive basis and I expect some local authorities will find no possible necessity to avail themselves of it. There will be no imposition on them to do so. However, on the other hand, certain local authorities in areas where the National Front is particularly active, in multiracial areas where the National Front makes a habit of scrawling its odious slogans on walls with one particular purpose, of course—of inciting racial and other forms of hatred—surely might well be grateful for the power to remove as soon as possible such provocative inscriptions before the sensitivities of too many in that locality have been inflamed.
As we all know, within our particular system there are very few measures at our disposal to control and counter the highly offensive, provocative manifestations of racialism, with all the ensuing inflammatory effects. So surely we should not let the opportunity provided by this Bill slip by without availing ourselves of this measure to stop walls being desecrated, by, as I say, these highly offensive racialist inscriptions. Therefore, for that reason, together with the fact that fly-posting and spray-painting go so naturally hand in hand, and that local authorities will be left at complete liberty whether or not to avail themselves of the power, it seems eminently reasonable and sensible to make this inclusion. I beg to move.
Lord Evans of Claughton: Briefly, I should like to support the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs. I support the principle and the concept behind it. I suspect that it will be a little difficult to enforce in the context of this permissive legislation, but in principle I still think that one should give a very clear message that the kind of graffiti to which the noble Baroness refers should be regarded—and I think can, under existing legislation, be regarded—as a breach of the law.
One of the things that I find most extraordinary is that the people who claim to love Wales the most and those who, no doubt, claim to love Scotland the most—and the nationalist parties are always telling us that this is their great basic belief—then go to enormous trouble to deface all the most beautiful areas of Wales with notices saying "Cofia Treweryn" and other Welsh remarks which, translated to your Lordships, remind us of the temporary defeat of the Welsh by the English in 1294, and things of that nature. It always strikes me as quite extraordinary that some beautiful areas of both Scotland and Wales are completely defaced by huge nationalist signs. It should, I submit, be fairly easy to identify who is responsible for that and, therefore, to do something about it, because whatever one's view are about one's own district or the way one's race has been treated, that position is not improved by defacing and destroying some of the most beautiful parts of those areas.
Perhaps the Minister can reassure us about the heading "or other unauthorised message". The political parties—and here I include all the political parties—particularly in country districts during a general election, and indeed sometimes a local election, go about defacing everything in sight—traffic signs, telephone boxes—with slogans of "Vote for John Jones, Conservative" or "Fred Williams, Labour". Of course, the Liberals never commit that kind of solecism. Would those kind of unauthorised messages also be included in the type of draconian legislation which local authorities are being invited to adopt? I hope that they will be.
Lord Bellwin: Of course, everyone shares the distaste for the spray-painting of slogans or other expressions on walls and buildings, and the Government no less than the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, the noble Lord. Lord Evans, and I am sure everyone in your Lordships' Committee. However, we do not think it advisable to extend Clause 31 to spray-painting, because it would then be brought within the statutory system of planning control over outdoor advertisements, thus giving it an additional importance which we feel is unwarranted. In practice most of these slogans or expressions appear on public buildings or other buildings, or street furniture, whose owner is either a public body or some other person or organisation who will not want offensive or defamatory slogans or expressions to appear on their premises.
In these circumstances, the Government do not think it would be advisable to create a presumption that it is the job of every district council in England and Wales to make staff available to remove or obliterate spray-painted slogans or expressions from premises for which the council have no responsibility. Furthermore, this is not a power that local authorities have sought in the rationalisation Bills that they have introduced into
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Parliament since 1974. We are not aware that they would in fact welcome this power. For this reason, we cannot accept the amendment. But having said that, certainly the principles behind what the noble Baroness has said are unquestioned.
Lord Mishcon: Would the noble Lord the Minister permit me to ask him to reconsider the nature of his reply? I say this because the inference from his remarks was that in fact this would give an importance to the spraying on the walls and so on which the whole subject did not deserve. Every one of us in this House is most anxious to see that a section of our community is not unduly insulted. Indeed, there was a debate in this House the other day when we were trying to deal with the causes of crime and public disorder.
I cannot think of anything more offensive, more inciting to young people who happen to have a different colour from our own, than to find on buildings—and they may be disused buildings, and therefore the owners are not there to try to remove it—an invitation, not always courteously worded, to return to their own country, with expressions like "niggers out" that all of us have seen defacing the walls of many of our districts in the metropolitan area, and, I have no doubt, outside it.
I sometimes try to put myself in the position of young people—citizens of this country—walking around finding those slogans and finding nobody to remove them. I suppose if they were to be seen trying to do something about it, they might even be committing an offence—it may be trespass, it may be something else. As my noble friend so properly said, this is an adoptive power. A local authority need not take it on if they do not want to. There are some local authorities, I feel sure, who happen to have as a large section of their population coloured citizens, and I believe that those authorities might wish to adopt this power.
Would the noble Lord the Minister at least say that he will reconsider the matter in the light of what has been said today, in the hope that at Report stage this amendment need not be put down again because the Government themselves will come out with a phrase—and I entirely accept what the noble Lord, Lord Evans, said—which might be a little more helpful than the words used here, which I know have been given a lot of consideration but with which nevertheless none of us would be terribly happy? Obviously, if the message that "Jill loves George" came within this description—we have also seen that sort of thing scribbled on the wall—it would be hardly likely that we would be trying desperately hard to cover that situation.
Lord Bellwin: I have listened carefully to what the noble Lord said and certainly I shall discuss this with colleagues. The problems which it would present, as I suggested in my original remarks, are perhaps greater than we realise. However, I am so sympathetic with the intention behind what is proposed that I think the very least I can do is to say, yes, I will take it away to look at and consider it with colleagues. The Committee will understand that I am not able to go further than that, and that I cannot promise we shall be able to do anything. However, I understand what is being said and I shall take the matter away and we shall talk about it.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: I thank the Minister very much for that assurance. I hope he will be able to improve on his original answer and, in view of his remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 111:
Page 39, line 15, leave out ("held under a grant or presumed grant or") and insert ("the right to hold which was acquired by virtue of a grant (including a presumed grant) or acquired or established by virtue of").
The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to remove any doubt as to whether markets held merely by virtue of the planning permission conferred by the Town and Country Planning General Development Order 1977 might be exempt from the prior notification requirements of this clause. The amendment ensures that subsection (6)(a) exempts only markets which are held by right of a franchise or statutory authority. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
9.56 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 31, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Baroness David: I have a few questions to ask about the clause. Subsection (3) says:
"A council shall not exercise any power conferred by subsection (1) of this section where a placard or poster identifies the person who displayed it or caused it to be displayed unless they have first given him notice in writing ".
Would the Minister think it a good idea if that provision included the need for the address of the person or company to be given? A great deal of time could be wasted trying to find who the person was. I should be obliged if the noble Lord could at least comment on that. I should also like to know whether "A" hoards are covered by the clause; I am sure noble Lords will have seen such boards, for example, standing on the pavement outside shops. My final question is about leaflets being distributed outside schools, in particular leaflets which tend to stir up racial hatred. A new clause was proposed in another place on 3rd February, on Report, when the Minister, Mr. Raison, said:
"I have already told the House that measures under the existing criminal law extend to the distribution of literature that is likely to stir up racial hatred".
He went on:
"We are considering whether the legislation is effective and I repeat my firm assurance to the House that we must get the law right and not use it simply as a vehicle to express sentiments which I fully accept are strongly and justifiably held".
Has any further review been done on that and has any progress been made, because it is another point about which we are very anxious?
Lord Mishcon: Most of the discussion on this clause has taken place around the question of racial incitement, and we have covered flyposting, spraying and so on. But a major reason for incitement is the marches which take place with one object only in view through certain areas, and that is to promote and provoke racial incitement. I appreciate that that may not come within the purview of this measure and I know that consideration is being given to the whole matter under the Public Order Act with a view to possible amendments to that. If the Minister could give an assurance that that is being actively progressed, it would be unnecessary for us to table amendments for Report of this Bill.
Lord Bellwin: With regard to the last point, I understand that this is part of the present Home Office review of the public order situation. Certainly the Government are very cognisant of the points made, and I am sure that the noble Lord, as well as the noble Baroness, Lady David, who touched on this aspect during her questions, know that we all want to achieve the same ends. It is a question of how we go about it. I am assured that this matter is part of the present review. With regard to the question about "A"
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boards, I am advised that we do not think that these are at present covered. We are considering the point about addresses, and we shall have to see how far we can get with it. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that. I hope that those remarks cover the point raised on clause stand part.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 32 agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 111A:
After Clause 32, insert the following new clause:
("Work undertaken by local authorities and development bodies under certain agreements with Manpower Services Commission. 1980 c. 65
.—(1) The following subsection shall be added at the end of section 20 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980—
"(4) Notwithstanding anything in subsection (1) above, in this Act "construction or maintenance work" does not include work undertaken by a local authority or a development body pursuant to an agreement made with the Manpower Services Commission after the passing of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisons) Act 1982 which specifies the work to be undertaken by the authority or body and under which the Commission has agreed to pay the whole or part of the cost of the work so specified.".
(2) The words ("(4)") shall accordingly be substituted for the words "and (3)" in the definition of "construction or maintenance work" in subsection (1) of that section.
(3) This section extends to Scotland.").
The noble Lord said: With this amendment I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 137A and 138A. The object of this new clause is both straightforward and beneficial: to exclude from the regulatory provisions of the general legislation on local authority direct labour organisations (DLOs) work undertaken by local authorities in relation to certain agreements with the Manpower Services Commission. It would extend to Scotland as well as England and Wales.
The DLO legislation is designed to impose effective controls on local authority construction and maintenance work. It requires councils: first, to compete with private contractors for a proportion of their work, rather than to let their own employees undertake it; secondly, to achieve a prescribed rate of return on the capital they employ; and thirdly, to meet various accounting requirements. Manpower Services Commission schemes are entirely different. They consist of work which would not otherwise be undertaken by an authority. No purpose would be served in requiring an authority to earn a rate of return, or to go out to competition with contractors for such MSC-sponsored work. Both local authority and building contractors' representatives agree that these schemes are irrelevant to the DLO legislation and should be specifically excluded from it. Local authorities may otherwise be deterred from taking on adult MSC Community Enterprise Programme employees; and contractors will see no purpose in tendering for schemes which the authority itself must undertake if it is to take on these employees.
I can assure the Committee that the new clause will not create any loophole by which local authorities

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could claim to exclude from the DLO controls other construction and maintenance work undertaken by their DLOs as part of their normal work programme, on the specious grounds that it was part of, or associated with, a MSC-sponsored scheme. The amendment ties the exemption to work specified in an agreement between the authority and the MSC. Such agreements specify the work to be done, the maximum number of employees to be taken on, the recruitment procedures for these employees, and the maximum period of employment for each individual. This means that the only work that is specified in the agreement is that which is to be undertaken by CEP employees themselves, the number of which is also part of the agreement.
Amendments Nos. 137A and 138A are consequential ones. The first takes account of the extension of the new clause to Scotland. The second is an amendment to the Long Title of the Bill, so as to admit the new clause. I beg to move.
Baroness David: We welcome the new clause.
Lord Evans of Claughton: We warmly welcome the new clause.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness David Baroness David moved Amendment No. 112:
After Clause 32, insert the following new clause:
("Power to attach conditions to permits for amusement with prizes machines
.—(1) The following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph 9 of the Ninth Schedule to the Gaming Act 1968:
"9. On granting or renewing a permit in respect of any premises the appropriate authority may grant or renew subject to a condition limiting the number of machines to which Part III of this Act applies which may be made available for gaming on the premises together with such other conditions as are deemed appropriate".
(2) Paragraph 10 and sub-paragraphs 3(c) and 12(2) of the Ninth Schedule to the Gaming Act 1968 are hereby repealed and the words "or paragraph 9" in paragraph 22 shall be omitted.").
The noble Baroness said: This amendment is intended to give power to local authorities to attach conditions to permits for amusement with prizes machines—sometimes called gambling machines. To achieve this we aim to amend paragraph 9 of Schedule 9 to the Gaming Act 1968. The primary distinctions made by law in dealing with amusements with prizes is between, first, those premises used wholly or mainly for providing amusements, and, secondly, those premises, such as cafes and public houses, in which the amusements are no more than an incidental feature. Local authorities have adequate powers to control the second; local authorities have powers to adopt policies either not to grant permits (for example, in retail shops) or to restrict the number of machines which may be installed in such premises. We are here concerned at the lack of powers available to local authorities to control premises used wholly or mainly for amusements with prizes; that is, amusement centres or arcades.
The general background is that evidence on this was submitted by the AMA to the Royal Commission
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on Gambling, which reported in July 1978. They were supported by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the Police Federation, the Justices' Clerks' Society and certain probation officers. All these very important groups asked that the existing controls over these places should be strengthened. The chief complaint levelled against them, and more especially against arcades in the larger cities, is that they tend to become resorts for prostitutes, of young people liable to be picked up for immoral purposes and of truanting schoolchildren.
The Royal Commission recommended a wide range of improvements in the existing arrangements, including Recommendation 259:
"Local authorities should be empowered to regulate illumination, advertising and window displays, and to apply limitations to the age of those admitted to the premises".
Recommendation 260:
"Local authorities should also have power to require the display of notices and the provision of information on the premises about the conditions pertaining to the permit".
Then there were other recommendations about the time that such places could be shut, and a number of others on the subject. There is grave concern that nothing has been done to bring these recommendations into operation.
In the last two years there has been a considerable proliferation of these premises, possibly a response to the growing number of the unemployed, but more likely, probably, to their being so profitable. The AMA recently conducted a survey of all metropolitan districts and London boroughs. The responses showed widespread concern. The sort of conditions that authorities considered most important related to hours of operation, provision of music, supervision of the premises, resort by criminals or prostitutes and the dishonest operation of machines, illumination and display of notices required by the local authority and admission of children.
Regarding age limits, authorities were generally in favour of a ban on unaccompanied children. Experience of voluntary bans on unaccompanied children varied, but several authorities expressed their dissatisfaction as to the inadequacy of voluntary bans. One referred to a case as follows. It appears that in May 1980, while interviewing a 15-year old schoolboy reported as missing from home, it came to the notice of the police that the youth had stolen his father's building society passbook and had made a number of withdrawals to the value of £350. The youth and three other youths attended at one of the particular premises and spent a large part of the money there. Significantly, the police say that since this offence they have made a check of the premises and found many youths frequenting them when they should have been attending school.
Another authority in the past refused a permit for amusement with prizes machines on the ground that,
"this council would have no power to control the admittance of children to the establishment".
The applicant appealed to the Crown Court, and his appeal was upheld. In respect of this particular ground for refusal, the judge stated that Parliament had not seen fit to allow licensing authorities to

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make conditions with regard to juveniles. We are striving to change that, and if this amendment is passed we shall do so.
Another authority in whose area is a holiday resort point out that they have defined a resort area within which amusement arcade facilities are considered to be appropriate. Obviously, any policy on the admission of children must be variable to reflect differences in the nature and location of such establishments. Local authorities are aware of, and responsive to, local variations, and they should be trusted to implement their powers on a differential basis. They know the nature of their problems. We all know that children mature at different ages, and it is not always easy to identify those under 16; but control is more likely to be effective if a ban is in operation, as it is in the case of public houses.
Are the Government going to bring in a Bill to implement the recommendations of the Royal Commission? A week or so ago I asked Lord Rothschild whether he thought they would, and he said he did not think there was any chance. Perhaps we shall hear tonight. We think it important that urgent action is taken to extend control over amusement arcades in the interests of young people and urban communities. The new clause sets out to empower at least the imposition of conditions to deal with such aspects as I have referred to, although the Rothchild Committee recommendation went far wider. I beg to move.
Lord Belstead: I am worried by the proposals put forward by the noble Baroness in this amendment because Schedule 9, which this amendment seeks to amend, specifically exempts from blanket controls premises used wholly or mainly for the provision of amusements by means of gaming machines. The reason for that is that the Government at the time that Schedule 9 was legislated felt that it might be possible if there was a blanket ban for the business concerned to be put wholly in jeopardy. Having said that, the Government are aware that some local authorities feel strongly that their existing powers to control the proliferation of amusement arcades are inadequate and the Home Office is in touch with the local authority associations on this matter.
Some constructive recommendations for amending legislation are now being considered but the Government are not yet in a position to put forward firm proposals. I am afraid that I cannot respond to the noble Baroness's direct question on whether there will be legislation to implement the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Gambling, because that will he something which the Government must consider for a future legislative programme. I have to say on this amendment that I do not think it would be acceptable to give local authorities unlimited power to impose conditions proposed by these amendments and to remove the safeguards which Parliament thought it right to provide for the amusement trade. I repeat that we are now looking most seriously at recommendations for amending legislation.
Baroness David: I thank the Minister for that reply. I shall have to study it in relation to Schedule 9(9) of the Gaming Act. I am grateful for what he has
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said about the Government recognising that there is a problem and that some action is being considered. I was not quite sure whether the action was going to happen by Report stage or whether it would happen in separate legislation at another time. I should like to have the answer to that before I withdraw the amendment.
Lord Belstead: I regret to say that it is extremely doubtful whether it would be by Report stage. I have no briefing to that effect.
Baroness David: I shall withdraw the amendment and shall consider what I might do at the next stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
10.12 p.m.
Viscount Ridley Viscount Ridley moved Amendment No. 113:
After Clause 32, insert the following new clause:
("Occasional sales
.—(1) The council of a county or a London borough may resolve that the following provisions of this section shall apply to their county or borough; and if a council so resolve and within 14 days of the passing of the resolution give notice of the resolution by advertising in a local newspaper circulating in their area, those provisions shall come into force in their county or district on the day specified in the resolution.
(2) A resolution under this section may be rescinded by a subsequent resolution made in a like manner except that in relation to the time when it takes effect a resolution under this subsection shall take effect on such date as may be specified in it being any date subsequent to the making of the resolution.
(3) In this section, unless the context otherwise requires, "occasional sale" means an event at which articles are offered for sale to the public by one or more sellers in the course of a trade or business on premises of which the sellers are not in rateable occupation and which are not used by those sellers for the sale of those articles on more than 5 consecutive days or for 4 or more days during any calendar month.
(4) Subject to subsection (5) below, any person who intends to hold an occasional sale to which this section applies shall give to the local weights and measures authority not less than 7 days before the holding of the intended sale notice of his intention to hold it.
(5) Where any person intends to hold an occasional sale to which this section applies less than 7 days after forming an intention to hold such a sale, he shall give notice of his intention to hold it to the local weights and measures authority and to the owners of the premises on which the intended sale is to be held within 24 hours of entering into a contract to use any such premises or of issuing any advertising material concerning the intended sale whichever is earlier.
(6) A notice given under subsection (4) or (5) above shall be in writing and shall specify—

(a) the proposed date, location, time of commencement and expected duration of the intended sale;

(b) the name and business address of every person who it is proposed shall promote or conduct the intended sale; and

(c) in general terms the type or types of articles to be offered for sale at the intended sale.

(7) If any person discloses to any person any information obtained by him in pursuance of this section he shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £200 except where the disclosure of information is made—

(a) for the purpose of facilitating the performances of any functions under this section, the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, the Fair Trading Act 1973, any Minister of the Crown or any enforcement authority; or

(b) in connection with the investigation of any criminal offence or for the purpose of any criminal proceedings; or (c) for the purposes of any civil proceedings.

(8) Any person who promotes, conducts or assists in the conduct of any occasional sale shall—

(a) for the duration of the sale permit entry on the premises on or in which the sale is held by any person duly authorised in that behalf by the occupier of the premises; and

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(b) display in a prominent position or in the premises, and state on all notices, leaflets and posters distributed by him or on his behalf in connection with the sale, the full name and business address of—

(i) himself; and

(ii) every other person concerned in the promotion or conduct of the sale.

(9) Any person who contravenes any provision of this section shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £200.
(10) Nothing in this section applies to—

(a) a market held by virtue of a grant from the Crown or of prescription or under statutory authority;

(b) a market wholly or mainly for the sale or auction of farm livestock or deadstock or the contents of a building; or

(c) a sale by auction of the contents of a building the majority of which have been used by the occupiers of that building for not less than 12 months;

(d) a sale conducted by persons who have been exempted in writing by the local weights and measures authority from notifying occasional sales subject to such terms and conditions as may be specified by the authority;

(e) any event promoted or conducted by a body registered as a charity under section 4 of the Charities Act 1960 or exempted from registration by virtue of subjection (4) of that section or qualified for registration under the Recreational Charities Act 1958; or

(f)any event held or for the benefit of a body existing for learned, educational, political or sporting objectives.

(11) Where an offence under this section committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate or any person who was purporting to act in such capacity, he, as the body corporate, shall be guilty of the offence.
(12) Where the affairs of a body corporate are managed by its members the foregoing subsection shall apply to the acts and defaults of a member in connection with his functions of management as if he were a director of the body corporate.
(13) In proceedings for an offence under this section it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of the offence.
(14) If in any case the defence provided under subsection (13) above involves the allegation that the commission of the offence was due to the act or default of another person, the person charged shall not, without leave of the court, be entitled to rely on that defence unless, within a period ending seven clear days before the hearing, he has served on the prosecutor a notice in writing giving such information as was then in his possession identifying, or assisting in the identification of, that other person.").
The noble Viscount said: I apologise for the length of this amendment, which is appalling to look at. I hope my remarks will be briefer. In recent years there has grown up a practice of holding one-day occasional sales promoted by itinerant traders. These sales are set up to promote the sale of a limited variety of articles and are advertised by leaflets distributed in the immediate vicinity. There is no doubt that there is a considerable number of reputable operators of these sales, and also no doubt there is a considerable number of dishonest ones. A survey recently taken of 22 county councils showed that in two years there were over 4,000 one-day sales which gave rise to 840 complaints relating to such things as unsafe and dangerous electrical goods being sold. These complaints resulted in fines totalling over £22,000 being imposed, with three suspended sentences. They relate to a number of Acts in the weights and measures field with which I will not weary the Committee.
From the enforcement point of view, one of the major difficulties is in establishing the correct name and address of the promoter responsible. All too frequently the name and address proves to be false. At the present
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time, there are outstanding in East Sussex alone seven summonses and four warrants which cannot be served for this reason.
Another difficulty is that the operators saturate an area with sales leaflets a few hours before the sale begins. The leaflets do not contain any name or address of the person promoting the sale. The first knowledge that the weights and measures authority have is the complaint which they receive the following morning, by which time it is too late.
Clause 32 of this Bill relates to temporary markets. It might be thought that this clause sets out to deal with the mischief which I have tried to outline. Unfortunately, this is not the case because these one-day sales are generally held in hotels, village halls, et cetera, and they will not be covered by the definition in subsection (6) of the clause. It is for this reason that I am moving that this further clause be added to the Bill.
The definitions in subsection (10) of my clause, exempted sales and other such worthy causes, have been extended in accordance with the suggestions made by the Department of Trade. For this clause 1 have considerable support from the Institute of Trading Standards Administration, the Society of Chief Trading Standards Officers—who are, not unnaturally, concerned with this matter—and also the National Chamber of Trade. I realise that in subsection (5) 24 hours may be too late for the notice that is required, but at least it would mean that the name of the applicant would have to become available and future enforcement must be possible.
It may well be thought, and perhaps many of the Committee do think, that the doctrine caveat emptor could be applied and that people taken in by these one-day sales have only themselves to blame. We may also feel that there has been much too much consumer protection legislation and unnecessary detail in recent years. I am persuaded by evidence from many county councils that there is a real problem here. Many people are being cheated by dishonest persons and the case is made out that this clause would be helpful to the enforcement of weights and measures legislation passed by Parliament. I beg to move.
Lord Drumalbyn: I should like to support my noble friend. This is a problem which has come my way in the past, mainly through the control of advertising. However, this is not a question of the control of advertising. It works in this way: the operator of the occasional sale has to give notice in some way or another. He can do this by advertising in newspapers or by distributing leaflets. The experience that I had was that the dishonest traders were prone to advertise at the very last moment so that the newspaper had no opportunity of checking the advertisement, or the traders distributed the notices of the occasional sale at the very last moment.
This is to some extent a question of educating those who are making premises available to these sales, be they hotels or halls. I know that it is felt that the only way to tackle this is to get these operators to notify the trading standards authorities, the weights and measures authorities, as soon as they contract to make the premises available. It is, I know realised

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that many of those who make the premises available are working on a voluntary basis, be they for church halls or other places of that kind, and it is not intended to expose people of that kind to undertake an obligation which, if they fail to fulfil it, makes them liable to prosecution. That is by no means necessary.
In this kind of field you have, on the one hand, to contrast the shopkeeper, who is by nature static and whose premises are regularly inspected—very often at least once a year—by the local weights and measures authorities and who is exposed to prosecution if he fails in any way to comply with his obligations under the various trading standards and weights and measures Acts. Why should those who have no static location and who move around, very often giving false names and addresses, be exempt from the weights and measures authorities who are there to protect the public? Why should they be immune because it is thought to be onerous to place obligations on those people who are letting the premises?
It is a perfectly simple matter and the weights and measures authorities are perfectly willing to undertake this. It is a comparatively easy matter—a question of identifying the hotels and the halls where sales of this kind are customarily arranged, and persuading those who do the letting to let them know when the sales are to take place. There is no need to attach any sanction to not being told, and in many cases it has to be admitted that any operation of this kind cannot give 100 per cent. coverage. But that is no reason for the Government not to allow local authorities to take steps which will, as far as possible, give protection to the public. That is what is being asked for in this amendment, and I should like to support it very strongly.
Lord Belstead: Of course, I take this amendment very seriously, moved as it is by my noble friend Lord Ridley and supported by my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, but I am advised that one-day traders are already subject to the same statutory requirements as normal traders and that their activities are monitored by trading standards officers. Successful prosecutions have been brought against dishonest traders and I think this clause would be onerous to operate. As drafted, it is open to two main objections. In the first place, we think it would place unnecessary burdens on bona fide traders whose activities give no cause for concern. Subsection (3) embraces a number of such activities: for example, a demonstration of a product in a department store or an exhibitor selling his products at a reputable exhibition and also what is sometimes called party-plan selling.
Secondly, the clause could readily be circumvented by the unscrupulous trader. He may avoid the requirement to give notice by booking a hall for five days and then selling out on the first day. I will content myself with giving that single example. Since the clause imposes extra controls on the honest trader, without ensuring that the unscrupulous one is tightly enough regulated, I do not think this amendment will do as it stands. I do not know whether my noble friends would like to put their heads together, perhaps with me, to see whether there is a way forward. But as
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the amendment stands, we do not think that it is acceptable.
Lord Underhill: Before the noble Viscount replies, I raised this very matter on the Civic Government (Scotland) Bill because there was no item on this matter included in that Bill. I was told that the matter was receiving consideration by the Department of Trade in connection with this English Bill. I hope that the noble Lord's reply means that the Department of Trade have considered the matter and decided not to take any action, because, for all the reasons advanced by the noble Viscount, one has to protect the innocent people, and they are the people who are deluded by these one-day traders. If the Government consider that the amendment as drafted could be unfair to the honest trader, I hope they will take the amendment back and bring forward their own amendment which will tackle the unscrupulous person at the same time as protecting the honest trader.
Lord Drumalbyn: With great respect, I fail to see how it is unfair to anybody. How is the honest trader in any way disadvantaged by the trading standards authorities being informed of the time when he will appear in a particular town and occupy premises there? I cannot see any reason at all why that should not be done. So far as honest traders are concerned, they generally go back again and again to the same premises quite regularly. They will be well-known and, very likely, the weights and measures inspectors will not bother to visit them. But what one is trying to get at is the less reputable traders, to make certain that some kind of notice, at any rate, of their intention to have an occasional sale is notified to the local weights and measures authorities, so that they can protect the public.
Lord Belstead: I am grateful to my noble friend for that extra advice. Certainly, I or my staff will look at what has been said, but I do not think that this is necessarily getting in a watertight way at the dishonest trader. That is one of the reasons which leads to the reservations which have been expressed for the Government by myself.
Viscount Ridley: I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn and the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, for their valuable support in what I think the Minister recognises is a genuine problem. I readily accept that the drafting of an amendment of this length is bound to be at fault in some way or another, and that it therefore needs altering. If my noble friend is seriously suggesting that discussions could be held to make this watertight, then I shall be very pleased to enter into talks with him before the next stage. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 33 [Power of local authorities to insure voluntary assistants]:
10.27 p.m.
Lord Mishcon Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 114:
Page 40, line 26, at end insert—
("( ) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that a local authority may make provision for sums equivalent to the

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sums mentioned in subsection (1) of this section by means of a fund established under paragraph 16 of Schedule 13 to this Act, and any sum so provided shall be treated in all respects as if it were a sum received by the local authority under a contract with authorised insurers in accordance with this section.").
The noble Lord said: I hope that I shall win your Lordships' prize for the briefest speech in moving an amendment. Employees are safeguarded against personal accident by many local authorities, by way of insurance funds which are established under paragraph 16 of Schedule 13 to the Local Government Act 1972. There is no doubt about the ability to do that and about the validity of the contract, because there is obviously an insurable interest. Here we are dealing with voluntary assistants and, therefore, there may not be an insurable interest, which I imagine is the reason for this clause.
If your Lordships will look at the clause, you will find that it deals only with a contract with any "authorised insurer", and the purpose of this amendment is to make absolutely certain that an insurance fund of the same nature as that which I spoke about before, set up by a local authority, would equally make the contract valid and would be permissible. If the noble Lord the Minister can give me that assurance—and it will obviously be on record—then we need not have any further bother. If he cannot give me that assurance then, quite obviously, one would have to consider putting down an amendment at Report stage. I beg to move.
Lord Bellwin: The difficulty here is that the amendment is open to two different interpretations, each of which will lead to unacceptable results. The first is that it would enable a local authority to establish a fund for the purpose of making payments to a voluntary assistant who has, for example, been injured, pending the receipt of a payment from an insurance company with whom, and for which purpose, the local authority had entered into a contract of insurance. The second is that it enables a local authority, irrespective of the new powers which will be conferred by Clause 33, to establish a fund to meet expenditure in the making of payments to voluntary assistants who are injured, killed or contract an illness as a result of the assistance which they offer to that authority. If the first interpretation is the correct one, the amendment is not desirable. A local authority might make a payment out of a fund to an assistant in the event of an injury—
Lord Mishcon: May I help the noble Lord the Minister, who is always so courteous. I am looking at the clock in the same way as he is. The purpose is not the first one that he is talking about.
Lord Bellwin: If the second interpretation is the correct one, then there are other difficulties. While a voluntary assistant doubtless plays a useful role in helping a local authority in the discharge of its functions, it should be recalled that a local authority has no statutory functions in relation to these assistants. They are what Clause 33 says they are—that is, volunteers. If a local authority has no statutory functions in relation to these assistants, how can it be argued that a fund which can only be established by an authority in connection with its functions can
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be established to meet expenditure in relation to persons in connection with whom it has no functions?
If my doubts as to the legality of such funds are well founded, then a declaratory provision of the kind now proposed will have no substantive effect. It is on this basis that we wonder whether the noble Lord wants to proceed with his amendment. Because of the hour it might be better for the noble Lord to study what has been said. If he would like to discuss it with me, then he knows I should be only too glad to do so, perhaps at a more relaxed moment.
Lord Mishcon: As always, the Minister is most courteous and helpful. However, I wonder whether he could shortly reply to this question (if he cannot, because of the lateness of the hour, then obviously we can do it by correspondence): I do not quite follow at the moment how the payment of an insurance premium by a local authority to an authorised insurer can be a proper exercise of a local authority power whereas the setting aside of its own insurance fund is not. If the noble Lord the Minister wants time to reflect upon that I shall understand, though if, with his usual agility of mind, he can answer immediately I shall be most grateful.
Lord Bellwin: I imagine that the point turns on the matter of a local authority's position in relation to the volunteer, but certainly this is a matter which we must take up separately. And, of course, I gladly undertake to do so.
Lord Mishcon: In view of the kindness of the Minister in promising to communicate with me upon this matter, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 115:
Page 40, line 35, after ("includes") insert ("(a)").
The noble Lord said: With this amendment I will also speak to Amendment No. 116. Amendment No. 116 will extend, at their request, this clause to the Common Council of the City of London and to the Council of the Isles of Scilly. The powers of a local authority under the Local Government Act 1972 have been applied by order to the Council of the Isles of Scilly. This clause adds another section to that Act, and it is considered appropriate to apply the new section to that council. Amendment No. 115 is a drafting amendment consequential on the previous amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 116:
Page 40, line 37, after ("Act") insert—
("—

(a) the Common Council of the City of London; and

(b) the Council of the Isles of Scilly;").

On Question, amendment agreed to.
Viscount Ridley Viscount Ridley moved Amendment No. 117:
Page 40, line 46, at end insert ("and includes any officer or member of a voluntary or other organisation which provides services or facilities of the kind provided by the local authority in pursuance of its functions or to which the local authority makes any financial contribution").
The noble Viscount said: This is a very simple amendment. Its purpose is to extend the powers of this very important clause to cover the probation and after-care committees which, as your Lordships know, work very carefully and in very close co-operation with county councils as social service authorities. They attach great importance to the insurance of voluntary assistants, which is effected by virtue of the provisions of various existing local Acts. The circumstances in which voluntary assistants in the probation service work and the types of work which they undertake are all such as to lead county councils to feel that insurance cover against personal accident, disease or sickness contracted while engaged in his or her voluntary work is highly desirable. I am sure there would be no complaint about that.
At present there is no statutory power for a county council to provide this cover for persons who are not employees of a local authority or voluntary assistants engaged in the work of a local authority as apart from that of the probation and after-care committee. As I have said, my amendment seeks to extend the powers of this clause to those persons. I understand that the Home Office have indicated that it is acceptable in principle and I hope, for once, that my drafting will be acceptable in practice.
Lord Bellwin: We are sympathetic to this amendment, in so far as it covers probation service volunteers but feel—I am sorry to have to say to my noble friend—that the amendment as drafted, much as I should have liked to accept it, goes far too wide. If my noble friend will withdraw it, the Government will consider introducing a suitable amendment at Report stage, which will be within the scope of the Bill. If so, it will extend the power to insure voluntary assistants to probation service volunteers only.
Viscount Ridley: I am extremely grateful to my noble friend and will withdraw my amendment on that assumption.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 33, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 34 [Lost and uncollected property]:
Baroness David Baroness David moved Amendment No. 117A:
Page 41, line at beginning insert, ("Without prejudice to the provisions of any other enactment, whether passed before or after this Act, or any other rule of law.").
The noble Baroness said: In speaking to Amendment No. 117A, I should like also to speak to Amendments Nos. 117B, 118A, 118B, 119A, 120A and 123B. Clause 34 makes provision for the disposal of property which has been lost by its owner and been found on local authority premises, or which has been deposited with a local authority but not collected by the owner. Amendments Nos. 117A, 118B, 119A, 120A and 123B are consequential upon Amendment No. 118A. The purpose of Amendment No. 118A is to apply the provisions of the clause for the disposal of lost and uncollected property to property which has been abandoned or which constitutes a trespass by being left on local authority premises without consent.
Difficulties are frequently caused by property being left, sometimes in considerable quantities, on local authority premises by outgoing tenants, licensees, mortgagors and squatters, some of whom also leave owing money—for instance, the rent. The property has to be stored until arrangements can be made for the owners to collect it or until they agree to its disposal by the council, or such period of time has elapsed—which can be considerable—as will enable the presumption to be made that the property has been abandoned.
Particular problems arise from trespassing animals—for example, horses belonging to gipsies which have been found trespassing at Thamesmead and elsewhere. The Animals Act 1971 contains provisions enabling the landowner to deal with straying animals, but these provisions do not cover leaving animals behind on land as a deliberate trespass. The council has had to round up trespassing horses and require owners to pay the costs, including veterinary and stabling fees, but its right to dispose of the property if the owners refuse to pay is doubtful.
So far as the proposals contained in Clause 34 are concerned, there seems nothing in principle to distinguish between, on the one hand, lost and uncollected property and, on the other, abandoned and trespassing property. Bringing the latter within the provisions would be a help and save money for local authorities. Where a local authority takes possession of premises in the exercise of its powers as a mortgagee and finds there goods belonging to the mortgagor, it is sometimes possible to dispose of the goods under Section 12 of the Torts Act 1977: Bailees' power of sale.
The purpose of Amendment No. 117A in making Clause 34 apply without prejudice to any other enactment is to preserve for local authorities the ability to use the 1977 Act or any local Act of which they might avail themselves where the circumstances of the case enable the authority to do so.
Since the Bill was first presented to the House of Commons there has become available the judgment of the Court of Appeal on Parker v. British Airways Board, which shows that the finder of lost property can, depending on the circumstances of the case, have a better claim to the property than the occupier of the premises on which the property has been found. Subsections (4) and (5) of Clause 34 of the Bill provide for the vesting of lost property in the local authority, and, apart from what appears to be a discretionary power in subsection (8), there seems to be no provision for what might be a better claim to the property by the finder of it during the periods described in subsections (4) and (5), before the property vests in the local authority.
The purpose of Amendment No. 117A in making Clause 34 apply without prejudice to any other rule of law—for example, such as that to be found in the Parker case—is an attempt to provide some safeguard for the rights of a finder. The references to "keep" and "keeping" in Amendments Nos. 119A and 120A are necessary because "store" and "storing" where used in the clause do not seem appropriate in relation to the horses referred to in connection with Amendment No. 118A. Amendments 118 and 12313 are drafting amendments required by Amendment No. 118A. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Perhaps I should mention to your Lordships in taking this group of amendments that when we reach Amendment No. 118B, if that is agreed to it will not be possible to call Amendment No. 119.
Lord Bellwin: I, too, speak to this amendment and to Amendments Nos. 117B, 118A, 118B, 123A and 123B. This clause is intended to confer on a local authority a clear and uncontroversial title to lost property or property simply left on local authority premises by its owner, and it could defeat the object of the clause to make these provisions subject or without prejudice to any rule of law to the contrary. The remedy to the owner of property under this clause is the requirement on the local authority to serve notice on him, except where it is impossible to do so, requesting him to collect his property. Similarly, there may be a number of enactments which deal, for example, with lost property. However, the provisions of this clause are intended to confer the general power referred to on a local authority irrespective of any enactment to the contrary, except in three specific cases. These are (a) property found on local authority aerodromes or in aircraft on such aerodromes; (b) property found on public service vehicles; and (c) property found on any premises belonging to the London Transport Executive or under the control of the Executive. In all these cases special statutory provisions are made which are not affected by this clause; otherwise the clause will apply as mentioned.
So far as the amendments are concerned, with regard to property left on local authority premises either by trespassers or by outgoing tenants or licensees in the circumstances mentioned, it is considered that the clause already makes adequate provision. Under the clause property can come into the possession of a local authority for the purposes of the clause, either where it is lost by the owner on local authority premises or where it is left there without permission.
The position in relation to property left by mortgagors in cases where the local authority takes possession under the mortgage is different. The clause would not provide for such property, and we do not consider that it should. It seems unjustified for local authorities to have rights which are not enjoyed by other mortgagees over personal property left in houses. There seems no reason why the local authority as mortgagee in possession should not come to come arrangement with the mortgagor for the removal or disposal of property. I realise that these matters, like so many others, required consideration, and I am sure that the noble Baroness, if I know her, and I think I do, would like to do just that.
Baroness David: I suspect that to be a not very satisfactory answer. I should certainly like to look at it when it is in print and to consider what I should do. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 117B not moved.]
10.43 p.m.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 118:
Page 41, line 5, leave out ("such").
The noble Lord said: Perhaps I may speak to Amendments Nos. 119, 120 and 123 with this amendment. Amendment No. 118 is a drafting amendment, consequential on an amendment made to the clause in another place. Nos. 119 and 120 are also drafting amendments. Amendment No. 123 will, at their request, extend the clause to the Common Council of the City of London. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 118A and 118B not moved.]
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 119:
Page 41, line 22, leave out ("they find property which has been lost") and insert ("property comes into their possession").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 119A not moved.]
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 119B:
Page 41, line 40, leave out first ("the") and insert ("any").
The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bellwin Lord Bellwin moved Amendment No. 120:
Page 42, line 10, leave out from ("making") to ("and") in line 11 and insert ("inquiries for the purposes of this section or serving any notice under subsection (2) above").
The noble Lord said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 120A not moved.]
Lord Evans of Claughton Lord Evans of Claughton moved Amendment No. 121:
Page 42, leave out line 15.
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 121. I move this amendment with a certain optimism even at 10.45 p.m., because it is to restore to the Bill clauses, to cover lost property at aerodromes, which were in the original Bill in another place and were removed there, in what is now believed to be the false belief that such powers inserted in the original Bill were not needed because of the Civil Aviation Act 1968, Section 3; and the Civil Aviation Act 1980, Section 26. Those advising me and the other noble Lords involved in this amendment—and it has the support of the Joint Airports Committee of Local Authorities, the Association of County Councils, the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and, I believe, the Association of District Councils—feel that there is a serious doubt whether by-laws created under the Civil Aviation Acts can, in fact, vest the property in the local authority or in the aerodrome so that it can give good title to a purchaser.
Since this doubt exists, I would have thought that it would be appropriate to restore to the Bill a clause that was originally there and which would clearly give the same powers with regard to property left in airports as is given to other property left in other local authority premises. Therefore, it would seem to me that it would be useful, and a great saving in unnecessary administrative cost in proving title, if the amendment were accepted and the original clause restored to its pristine glory from its first period in another place. I beg to move.
Lord Bellwin: The effect of the proposed amendment would be, as has been said, to extend the provisions of Clause 34 to property lost at a local authority aerodrome or on an aircraft on such an aerodrome. I should remind your Lordships that, in their wisdom, various Governments have recognised that special problems arise at aerodromes which are not found in other walks of everyday life. In recognition of this, specific provision has been made for the regulation and operation of aerodromes and the conduct of persons while on aerodromes. In the case of local authority aerodromes, by-laws may be made—and, indeed, have been made—under the provisions of the Civil Aviation Acts 1968 and 1980. The latter Act relates specifically to property lost at local authority aerodromes and in aircraft at those aerodromes.
I think that you Lordships will agree that, in view of the existence of current legislation specifically designed to deal with the problem, it would be unnecessary, and indeed perhaps confusing, to accept an amendment which would have the effect of providing two pieces of statute dealing with the same issue in a different way. That is why the Government cannot accept the proposed amendment.
I would add that if the proposed amendment arises from concern that the 1980 Civil Aviation Act provisions do not extend to the vesting of property, or to the monies realised on its sale, then the correct procedure would be to seek an amendment to the provisions of that Act.
Viscount Ridley: I should like to add my support to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Claughton. I asked him to move this amendment because his grasp of these matters, as a lawyer, is far greater than mine. But he did say—and I do not think that my noble friend quite answered his remarks—that there is doubt as to whether the existing Acts cover this problem. Therefore, if there is doubt, would it not be better at least to look at the whole subject again, to see that the doubt is removed in the interests of everybody concerned?
Lord Bellwin: Certainly I would say to my noble friend that I will gladly undertake to do that. I am advised that, in fact, there is no such doubt. But certainly I take the point and we shall look at it again. Should what my noble friend says be correct, then of course we would want to do something about it.
Lord Evans of Claughton: I may be a lawyer, but I think that the noble Viscount has a much more persuasive style with the noble Lord the Minister. The fact of the matter is that the Joint Airports Committee of Local Authorities, of which my own local authority is, much to its great expense, a member—it loses nearly £2 million a year on its airport—has carefully examined the model by-laws relating to lost property at airports which the Department of Trade has produced under the powers contained in the Civil Aviation Acts. It is the Department of Trade that has been insisting that in connection with the word "disposal" one cannot include a vesting of the property in the owners of the airport. If, then, they seek to create by-laws to enable them to dispose of property which is not vested in them, they might well find that
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they will have claims—perhaps spurious, perhaps fraudulent claims—which they cannot defeat, because they cannot show that the property is vested in them.
It may be all very well for the noble Lord the Minister to say that we should seek to move amendments to the Civil Aviation Acts, but he knows jolly well how difficult that would be for us to do. I should have thought that it might be a great saving in money and in administrative difficulty if the Government would, as I believe the Minister has now indicated, be willing to look at this to see whether they share the doubts that apparently the Department of Trade, the local authorities and the Joint Airports Committee have. If, as I gather from his assent and his happy, smiling face, he does say that, on that basis I beg leave to withdraw the amendment standing in my name.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 122 not moved.]
Lord Belstead Lord Belstead moved Amendment No. 123: Page 42, line 26, at end insert—
("and
(c) the Common Council of the City of London;").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 123A and 123B not moved.]
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Belstead Lord Belstead moved Amendment No. 124:
After Clause 34, insert the following new clause:
("Port health districts and port health authorities. 1936 c. 49.
—(l) In section 2(2) of the Public Health Act 1936 (constitution of port health district under port health authority)—

(a) for the words "(i) constitute a port health district consisting of the whole or part of a port "there shall be substituted the words" constitute a port health district consisting of any area, being a port or part of a port, or of two or more such areas, or consisting of such an area or two or more such areas together with so much (being either the whole or any part or parts) of the district or districts of one or more riparian authorities as (not being comprised in that area or any of those areas, as the case may be) is specified in the order"; and

(b) paragraph (ii) shall be omitted.

(2) In section 3(1)(a) of that Act (which specifies the waters and land over which a port health authority is to have jurisdiction) for the words from "waters" to "so specified" there shall be substituted the words "waters and land within the port health district"o
(3) In section 41 of the London Government Act 1963 (port health authority for the Port of London)—

(a) in subsection (1), after the words "Port of London" there shall be inserted the words "together with so much (being either the whole or any part or parts) of the district or districts of one or more riparian authorities as (not being comprised in the Port of London) may be specified in an order made by the Secretary of State";

(b) in paragraph (a) of that subsection, for the words from "waters" to the end of the paragraph there shall be substituted the words "waters and land within that port health district";

(c) in paragraph (c) of that subsection, for the words from "mentioned in paragraph (a)" to "so mentioned" there shall be substituted the words "and land within that port health district"; and

(d) at the end of the section there shall be added the following subsection:—

"(4) In this section "riparian authority" means a riparian authority within the meaning of Part I of the Public Health Act 1936 as amended by subsection (3) of this section.".
(4) The amendments made by subsections (1) to (3) above shall not affect the validity of any order made under section 2(2)

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of the Public Health Act 1936, or under section 41 of the London Government Act 1963, before the passing of this Act; but the power conferred by section 9(2) of the said Act of 1936, or by section 90 of the said Act of 1963, to amend or vary orders shall include power to amend or vary any order so made so as to have effect in accordance with the provisions of the Act in question as amended by this section.").
The noble Lord said: The effect of this amendment is two-fold. First, the Secretary of State will be able to constitute one riparian authority port health authority for a port health district comprising the whole or part of one or more customs port. Prior to this amendment, only a joint board comprising representatives of two or more riparian authorities could be constituted port health authority for a port health district, consisting, of any two areas being ports or parts of ports. In large local authority districts, since local government reorganisation, the fact that customs port boundaries do not bear any relation to local authority boundaries has led to difficulties in the current programme of reconstituting port health authorities.
Secondly, the amendment clarifies that in order to carry out their functions port health authorities have jurisdiction over parts of the district of the riparian authorities. The amendment will ensure that the whole of the area over which the port health authority has jurisdiction will be the defined port health district. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Denham: I think that this is probably a suitable time to break off for the night. I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

  PRISONERS AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT
  PRISONERS AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT
  CYPRUS: SETTLEMENT AND MISSING PERSONS
  CYPRUS: SETTLEMENT AND MISSING PERSONS
  BOOKS: YEAR OF PUBLICATION
  BOOKS: YEAR OF PUBLICATION
  IRANIAN STUDENTS: FEES POLICY
  IRANIAN STUDENTS: FEES POLICY
  DESIGNATED ADVANCED COURSES: FEES
  DESIGNATED ADVANCED COURSES: FEES
  MAFF STAFF AND REPORTING OF SUSPECTED CRIME
  MAFF STAFF AND REPORTING OF SUSPECTED CRIME